Why Leaders Self-Sabotage and How to Break the Cycle with Judah Smith & Dr. Les Parrott

a ticking time bomb. I started to feel a ticking time bomb. I started to feel like it's only a matter of time. If this like it's only a matter of time. If this like it's only a matter of time. If this pressure increases at all, I cannot pressure increases at all, I cannot pressure increases at all, I cannot withstand this. I used to think it was withstand this. I used to think it was withstand this. I used to think it was perversion. I used to think it was perversion. I used to think it was perversion. I used to think it was greed. I used to think it was rebellion. greed. I used to think it was rebellion. greed. I used to think it was rebellion. I used to think it was witchcraft. You I used to think it was witchcraft. You I used to think it was witchcraft. You know, all these reasons that people end know, all these reasons that people end know, all these reasons that people end up sabotaging their life. Now I just up sabotaging their life. Now I just up sabotaging their life. Now I just realize it's just weariness, exhaustion, realize it's just weariness, exhaustion, realize it's just weariness, exhaustion, fear, anxiety, this feeling that I can't fear, anxiety, this feeling that I can't fear, anxiety, this feeling that I can't keep all these balls in the air at the keep all these balls in the air at the keep all these balls in the air at the same time. Uh I'm going to screw this same time. Uh I'm going to screw this same time. Uh I'm going to screw this up. It's only a matter of time. And I up. It's only a matter of time. And I up. It's only a matter of time. And I didn't know what to do with some of didn't know what to do with some of didn't know what to do with some of those emotions. Welcome to the Carrie those emotions. Welcome to the Carrie those emotions. Welcome to the Carrie New Huff Leadership Podcast. Did you New Huff Leadership Podcast. Did you New Huff Leadership Podcast. Did you know your brain is lying to you 80% of know your brain is lying to you 80% of know your brain is lying to you 80% of the time? Well, Judith Smith and Les the time? Well, Judith Smith and Les the time? Well, Judith Smith and Les Parrot talk about exactly that and why Parrot talk about exactly that and why Parrot talk about exactly that and why leaders self-sabotage, how to break the leaders self-sabotage, how to break the leaders self-sabotage, how to break the cycle. You know what? You got a lot of cycle. You know what? You got a lot of cycle. You know what? You got a lot of negative thoughts. 80% of human thoughts negative thoughts. 80% of human thoughts negative thoughts. 80% of human thoughts are negative. And I can relate to that. are negative. And I can relate to that. are negative. And I can relate to that. I don't know whether you can. I think I don't know whether you can. I think I don't know whether you can. I think you're going to love this. So, wherever you're going to love this. So, wherever you're going to love this. So, wherever you're watching, be sure to subscribe, you're watching, be sure to subscribe, you're watching, be sure to subscribe, follow, and leave a comment to join the follow, and leave a comment to join the follow, and leave a comment to join the conversation. And now, a word from conversation. And now, a word from conversation. And now, a word from today's partners, and then we'll dive today's partners, and then we'll dive today's partners, and then we'll dive into my conversation with Judith Smith into my conversation with Judith Smith into my conversation with Judith Smith and Dr. Les Parrot. This episode is and Dr. Les Parrot. This episode is and Dr. Les Parrot. This episode is brought to you by Compassion. You know, brought to you by Compassion. You know, brought to you by Compassion. You know, church, if you are in scripture church, if you are in scripture church, if you are in scripture routinely, you're likely aware that routinely, you're likely aware that routinely, you're likely aware that there is a very major emphasis on there is a very major emphasis on there is a very major emphasis on compassion and generosity as core compassion and generosity as core compassion and generosity as core components of God's character and our components of God's character and our components of God's character and our lives as his followers. In fact, lives as his followers. In fact, lives as his followers. In fact, throughout the scripture, God describes throughout the scripture, God describes throughout the scripture, God describes himself as compassionate, gracious, slow himself as compassionate, gracious, slow himself as compassionate, gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in love. Aspects

to anger, and abounding in love. Aspects to anger, and abounding in love. Aspects that describe his character and nature. that describe his character and nature. that describe his character and nature. And as believers, scripture calls us to And as believers, scripture calls us to And as believers, scripture calls us to reflect on that nature, living a full reflect on that nature, living a full reflect on that nature, living a full life of gospel-driven kindness that is life of gospel-driven kindness that is life of gospel-driven kindness that is set apart from, well, what we know to be set apart from, well, what we know to be set apart from, well, what we know to be the normal posture of this world. So, as the normal posture of this world. So, as the normal posture of this world. So, as a pastor, the question is, how is that a pastor, the question is, how is that a pastor, the question is, how is that going for you? This summer, I'd like to going for you? This summer, I'd like to going for you? This summer, I'd like to encourage you to visit my friends at encourage you to visit my friends at encourage you to visit my friends at Compassion International to learn how Compassion International to learn how Compassion International to learn how you might grow your compassion and your you might grow your compassion and your you might grow your compassion and your generosity today. You can find out more generosity today. You can find out more generosity today. You can find out more at compassion.com/carry. at compassion.com/carry. at compassion.com/carry. This is something I do personally This is something I do personally This is something I do personally because honestly it's changed my life because honestly it's changed my life because honestly it's changed my life and it's changed my heart. So check it and it's changed my heart. So check it and it's changed my heart. So check it out. Go to compassion.com/carry. out. Go to compassion.com/carry. out. Go to compassion.com/carry. That's compassion.com/carey. That's compassion.com/carey. That's compassion.com/carey. This episode is brought to you by church This episode is brought to you by church This episode is brought to you by church salary. So every church leader I know salary. So every church leader I know salary. So every church leader I know carries a heavy responsibility to honor carries a heavy responsibility to honor carries a heavy responsibility to honor their team by paying them fairly. But their team by paying them fairly. But their team by paying them fairly. But the question is how do you know what's the question is how do you know what's the question is how do you know what's actually fair? So to talk about a new actually fair? So to talk about a new actually fair? So to talk about a new way to discover this, I've invited Brad way to discover this, I've invited Brad way to discover this, I've invited Brad Hill from Glue. Brad, um, what are you Hill from Glue. Brad, um, what are you Hill from Glue. Brad, um, what are you learning about this?

learning about this? learning about this? >> You know, Carrie, for a long time, I >> You know, Carrie, for a long time, I >> You know, Carrie, for a long time, I think for too long, pastors and boards think for too long, pastors and boards think for too long, pastors and boards at churches, they really just haven't at churches, they really just haven't at churches, they really just haven't had a trustworthy place to go when it had a trustworthy place to go when it had a trustworthy place to go when it comes to fair compensation. And so, our comes to fair compensation. And so, our comes to fair compensation. And so, our partners at Church Salary have been partners at Church Salary have been partners at Church Salary have been working to fix this. Um, in fact, they working to fix this. Um, in fact, they working to fix this. Um, in fact, they just, it's good we're talking now. They just, it's good we're talking now. They just, it's good we're talking now. They just launched a brand new version of just launched a brand new version of just launched a brand new version of their online tool. And what it does is their online tool. And what it does is their online tool. And what it does is it guides ministry leaders through many it guides ministry leaders through many it guides ministry leaders through many of the most challenging compensation of the most challenging compensation of the most challenging compensation questions that they're going to have. questions that they're going to have. questions that they're going to have. >> So I've I've heard a little bit about >> So I've I've heard a little bit about >> So I've I've heard a little bit about this new church salary 3.0. So I'd love this new church salary 3.0. So I'd love this new church salary 3.0. So I'd love to know Brad, what questions does this to know Brad, what questions does this to know Brad, what questions does this tool actually answer? tool actually answer? tool actually answer? >> Yes. So 3.0 church salary 3.0 is all new >> Yes. So 3.0 church salary 3.0 is all new >> Yes. So 3.0 church salary 3.0 is all new and it helps pastors and leaders answer and it helps pastors and leaders answer and it helps pastors and leaders answer things like am I being paid fairly? Are things like am I being paid fairly? Are things like am I being paid fairly? Are we paying our team fairly? How should we paying our team fairly? How should we paying our team fairly? How should things like cost of living, education, things like cost of living, education, things like cost of living, education, experience affect compensation? And it's experience affect compensation? And it's experience affect compensation? And it's using real ministry specific data to using real ministry specific data to using real ministry specific data to give you clarity and confidence. give you clarity and confidence. give you clarity and confidence. >> Brad, that's so helpful. I know leaders >> Brad, that's so helpful. I know leaders >> Brad, that's so helpful. I know leaders really want to do the right thing when really want to do the right thing when really want to do the right thing when it comes to compensation and actually it comes to compensation and actually it comes to compensation and actually see where they're at compared to see where they're at compared to see where they're at compared to everybody else, but it's hard to figure everybody else, but it's hard to figure everybody else, but it's hard to figure it out. So, if you want to figure that it out. So, if you want to figure that it out. So, if you want to figure that out, uh, it's absolutely free. Go to out, uh, it's absolutely free. Go to out, uh, it's absolutely free. Go to churchy.com/carry.

churchy.com/carry. churchy.com/carry. That's church salary.com/carry That's church salary.com/carry That's church salary.com/carry and get started for free today. Judah and get started for free today. Judah and get started for free today. Judah Les, welcome. Really glad to have you. Les, welcome. Really glad to have you. Les, welcome. Really glad to have you. >> Good to be with you, man. >> Good to be with you, man. >> Good to be with you, man. >> Come on. I love you. This uh this is a >> Come on. I love you. This uh this is a >> Come on. I love you. This uh this is a good group right here. We're going to good group right here. We're going to good group right here. We're going to have some fun. It's it's obviously an have some fun. It's it's obviously an have some fun. It's it's obviously an honor to be here with such educated men. honor to be here with such educated men. honor to be here with such educated men. Um this is amazing. Um this is amazing. Um this is amazing. >> It's really great to have you back, >> It's really great to have you back, >> It's really great to have you back, Judah, and great to have you for the Judah, and great to have you for the Judah, and great to have you for the first time. Les, I got to ask, how did first time. Les, I got to ask, how did first time. Les, I got to ask, how did you two meet? you two meet? you two meet? >> H Judah. Well, here's the thing, Carrie. >> H Judah. Well, here's the thing, Carrie. >> H Judah. Well, here's the thing, Carrie. Um, I have a wife of 25 years and she Um, I have a wife of 25 years and she Um, I have a wife of 25 years and she needed to be fixed. So, I felt like, uh, needed to be fixed. So, I felt like, uh, needed to be fixed. So, I felt like, uh, Lesie and Lesie could fix my wife Lesie and Lesie could fix my wife Lesie and Lesie could fix my wife because I, you know, obviously in because I, you know, obviously in because I, you know, obviously in marriage, I've I've batted a thousand marriage, I've I've batted a thousand marriage, I've I've batted a thousand and I just needed Chelsea to kind of get and I just needed Chelsea to kind of get and I just needed Chelsea to kind of get with the program. And ever since then, with the program. And ever since then, with the program. And ever since then, our marriage has gotten so much better. our marriage has gotten so much better. our marriage has gotten so much better. Come on. Who am I fooling? No, I needed Come on. Who am I fooling? No, I needed Come on. Who am I fooling? No, I needed I needed desperate help to make sure I needed desperate help to make sure I needed desperate help to make sure that my marriage went the direction I that my marriage went the direction I that my marriage went the direction I wanted to go and didn't end up making wanted to go and didn't end up making wanted to go and didn't end up making some dumb decision that ruined some dumb decision that ruined some dumb decision that ruined everything I loved. And uh we went to everything I loved. And uh we went to everything I loved. And uh we went to Lesie and Lesie gosh uh a decade and a Lesie and Lesie gosh uh a decade and a Lesie and Lesie gosh uh a decade and a half ago or something. And uh it's been half ago or something. And uh it's been half ago or something. And uh it's been it's been amazing. I've grown in it's been amazing. I've grown in it's been amazing. I've grown in adoration and admiration for them for adoration and admiration for them for adoration and admiration for them for them both. But mostly uh for uh Mrs.

them both. But mostly uh for uh Mrs. them both. But mostly uh for uh Mrs. Lesley Parrot. Lesley Parrot. Lesley Parrot. >> Yeah. Mrs. Doctor to you, Judah. >> Yeah. Mrs. Doctor to you, Judah. >> Yeah. Mrs. Doctor to you, Judah. [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] No, I'll tell you the truth, Gary. This No, I'll tell you the truth, Gary. This No, I'll tell you the truth, Gary. This because I I I really appreciate this because I I I really appreciate this because I I I really appreciate this about Chelsea and and Judah. They came about Chelsea and and Judah. They came about Chelsea and and Judah. They came to Lesie and me uh about 15 years ago, to Lesie and me uh about 15 years ago, to Lesie and me uh about 15 years ago, as Judah said, for not a crisis, not as Judah said, for not a crisis, not as Judah said, for not a crisis, not because there was some huge thing that because there was some huge thing that because there was some huge thing that needed to be uncovered, not because they needed to be uncovered, not because they needed to be uncovered, not because they were falling apart at the seams, but were falling apart at the seams, but were falling apart at the seams, but because things were going well and they because things were going well and they because things were going well and they wanted to make sure they stayed that wanted to make sure they stayed that wanted to make sure they stayed that way. Um, and um, that's really rare as a way. Um, and um, that's really rare as a way. Um, and um, that's really rare as a psychologist. Yeah. My wife is a psychologist. Yeah. My wife is a psychologist. Yeah. My wife is a marriage and family therapist. We see a marriage and family therapist. We see a marriage and family therapist. We see a lot of people, a lot of people in lot of people, a lot of people in lot of people, a lot of people in Christian leadership. And I truthfully, Christian leadership. And I truthfully, Christian leadership. And I truthfully, I don't know that I've ever had anyone I don't know that I've ever had anyone I don't know that I've ever had anyone else show up knocking on our counseling else show up knocking on our counseling else show up knocking on our counseling door to say, "Hey, help us solve door to say, "Hey, help us solve door to say, "Hey, help us solve problems before they start." Um, and problems before they start." Um, and problems before they start." Um, and Judah, I don't want to put words in your Judah, I don't want to put words in your Judah, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm imagining looking back on mouth, but I'm imagining looking back on mouth, but I'm imagining looking back on that 15 years ago, you saw a lot of that 15 years ago, you saw a lot of that 15 years ago, you saw a lot of folks that were fallen, people, your folks that were fallen, people, your folks that were fallen, people, your peers, your friends that were stumbling peers, your friends that were stumbling peers, your friends that were stumbling in their efforts, and you said, "Man, in their efforts, and you said, "Man, in their efforts, and you said, "Man, what can we do? Let's take out some what can we do? Let's take out some what can we do? Let's take out some insurance to make sure that doesn't insurance to make sure that doesn't insurance to make sure that doesn't happen to us." Am I right?

happen to us." Am I right? happen to us." Am I right? >> Yeah. I mean, to be honest, it's it's >> Yeah. I mean, to be honest, it's it's >> Yeah. I mean, to be honest, it's it's pretty basic. I think I was kind of pretty basic. I think I was kind of pretty basic. I think I was kind of scared. I was like, "Man, there's no scared. I was like, "Man, there's no scared. I was like, "Man, there's no reason why that can't happen to me." And reason why that can't happen to me." And reason why that can't happen to me." And in some cases, it was people that were in some cases, it was people that were in some cases, it was people that were struggling making dumb decisions that I struggling making dumb decisions that I struggling making dumb decisions that I thought were much more informed and thought were much more informed and thought were much more informed and brilliant and more spiritual than I was. brilliant and more spiritual than I was. brilliant and more spiritual than I was. So, I was like, well, I'm I don't got a So, I was like, well, I'm I don't got a So, I was like, well, I'm I don't got a chance here if we don't kind of get to chance here if we don't kind of get to chance here if we don't kind of get to the bottom of some of this stuff and and the bottom of some of this stuff and and the bottom of some of this stuff and and really uncover um what's really going really uncover um what's really going really uncover um what's really going on. And so, I I am happy to announce on. And so, I I am happy to announce on. And so, I I am happy to announce that in fact, I'm days away from going that in fact, I'm days away from going that in fact, I'm days away from going getting away with my wife um to some of getting away with my wife um to some of getting away with my wife um to some of our favorite parts of the world, and I our favorite parts of the world, and I our favorite parts of the world, and I am more in love with her than ever. So, am more in love with her than ever. So, am more in love with her than ever. So, thanks to the parrots. Well, and Carrie, thanks to the parrots. Well, and Carrie, thanks to the parrots. Well, and Carrie, here's here's the issue of what I didn't here's here's the issue of what I didn't here's here's the issue of what I didn't realize is that Judah, after we did realize is that Judah, after we did realize is that Judah, after we did some, you know, work together with the some, you know, work together with the some, you know, work together with the four of us, Lesie and Chelsea, and Judah four of us, Lesie and Chelsea, and Judah four of us, Lesie and Chelsea, and Judah and myself, uh, that he would stand up and myself, uh, that he would stand up and myself, uh, that he would stand up in his, uh, on his platform in his in his, uh, on his platform in his in his, uh, on his platform in his microphone and go, "Hey, we're seeing microphone and go, "Hey, we're seeing microphone and go, "Hey, we're seeing less and less parrot all and and he was less and less parrot all and and he was less and less parrot all and and he was modeling it, which was fantastic. The modeling it, which was fantastic. The modeling it, which was fantastic. The only problem for me is that everybody in only problem for me is that everybody in only problem for me is that everybody in his congregation started to call Leslie his congregation started to call Leslie his congregation started to call Leslie and me for counseling." And and me for counseling." And and me for counseling." And >> we want therapy, too.

>> we want therapy, too. >> we want therapy, too. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Exactly. So, but it really was a pretty good So, but it really was a pretty good So, but it really was a pretty good model for how to probably I'm sure we're model for how to probably I'm sure we're model for how to probably I'm sure we're going to talk more about this, but how going to talk more about this, but how going to talk more about this, but how do in leadership, how in the world do do in leadership, how in the world do do in leadership, how in the world do you balance having the need for you balance having the need for you balance having the need for something like therapy with being in a something like therapy with being in a something like therapy with being in a leadership role and modeling that so leadership role and modeling that so leadership role and modeling that so that you're not ministering out of hurt, that you're not ministering out of hurt, that you're not ministering out of hurt, but out of out of redemption, out of out but out of out of redemption, out of out but out of out of redemption, out of out of health. And so, anyway, that's how we of health. And so, anyway, that's how we of health. And so, anyway, that's how we first got together. And I think Judah, first got together. And I think Judah, first got together. And I think Judah, it's kind of morphed a little bit into it's kind of morphed a little bit into it's kind of morphed a little bit into you and me and me doing a little bit of you and me and me doing a little bit of you and me and me doing a little bit of coaching here and vice versa. And it's coaching here and vice versa. And it's coaching here and vice versa. And it's really a mutually beneficial really a mutually beneficial really a mutually beneficial relationship at this point. relationship at this point. relationship at this point. >> Truly. >> Truly. >> Truly. >> Two things that uh kind of resonate with >> Two things that uh kind of resonate with >> Two things that uh kind of resonate with my story. Uh my most recent round of my story. Uh my most recent round of my story. Uh my most recent round of counseling has been with a counselor counseling has been with a counselor counseling has been with a counselor slash coach and it was exactly what you slash coach and it was exactly what you slash coach and it was exactly what you said. Now, it wasn't couples therapy, said. Now, it wasn't couples therapy, said. Now, it wasn't couples therapy, but I was in a pretty happy place. And but I was in a pretty happy place. And but I was in a pretty happy place. And I'm like, I just see so many people I'm like, I just see so many people I'm like, I just see so many people imploding and exploding in ministry.

imploding and exploding in ministry. imploding and exploding in ministry. How do I know that I'm not next? And How do I know that I'm not next? And How do I know that I'm not next? And there was nothing wrong, but like I there was nothing wrong, but like I there was nothing wrong, but like I dialed him in and I said, I haven't got dialed him in and I said, I haven't got dialed him in and I said, I haven't got a crisis I'm sitting on or thing that's a crisis I'm sitting on or thing that's a crisis I'm sitting on or thing that's exploding or imploding, but I just want exploding or imploding, but I just want exploding or imploding, but I just want to know how does this happen? and it's to know how does this happen? and it's to know how does this happen? and it's been like a multi-year been like a multi-year been like a multi-year uh exploration of that and some of the uh exploration of that and some of the uh exploration of that and some of the other challenges I've had. So, totally other challenges I've had. So, totally other challenges I've had. So, totally get that. And I think that's, you know, get that. And I think that's, you know, get that. And I think that's, you know, cuz usually we wait, right? You show up cuz usually we wait, right? You show up cuz usually we wait, right? You show up for financial counseling the day before for financial counseling the day before for financial counseling the day before bankruptcy. Probably should have been bankruptcy. Probably should have been bankruptcy. Probably should have been here a minute before, you know, a little here a minute before, you know, a little here a minute before, you know, a little bit earlier. The other thing is I I that bit earlier. The other thing is I I that bit earlier. The other thing is I I that my very first visit to a counselor was my very first visit to a counselor was my very first visit to a counselor was over 20 years ago, maybe 22 23 years ago over 20 years ago, maybe 22 23 years ago over 20 years ago, maybe 22 23 years ago where I went to fix my wife Tony, who where I went to fix my wife Tony, who where I went to fix my wife Tony, who you know has nothing wrong with her. Uh you know has nothing wrong with her. Uh you know has nothing wrong with her. Uh but apparently it was everything was but apparently it was everything was but apparently it was everything was wrong with me. And so I'm still in wrong with me. And so I'm still in wrong with me. And so I'm still in therapy two decades later because I am therapy two decades later because I am therapy two decades later because I am the problem. I've learned. So anyway, the problem. I've learned. So anyway, the problem. I've learned. So anyway, >> I'll tell you this. There's something >> I'll tell you this. There's something >> I'll tell you this. There's something that we know from research and that is that we know from research and that is that we know from research and that is that most couples don't come for to to that most couples don't come for to to that most couples don't come for to to get the help that they need for seven get the help that they need for seven get the help that they need for seven years on average. In other words, they years on average. In other words, they years on average. In other words, they will put up with a problem for seven will put up with a problem for seven will put up with a problem for seven years before they one of them finally years before they one of them finally years before they one of them finally goes, "Okay, I'll go." You know, isn't goes, "Okay, I'll go." You know, isn't goes, "Okay, I'll go." You know, isn't that incredible? Wow.

that incredible? Wow. that incredible? Wow. >> I feel that resistance though. Like I >> I feel that resistance though. Like I >> I feel that resistance though. Like I really do. Yeah. really do. Yeah. really do. Yeah. >> I I feel a resistance. It's like, you >> I I feel a resistance. It's like, you >> I I feel a resistance. It's like, you know, and the older I get, the more I'm know, and the older I get, the more I'm know, and the older I get, the more I'm like, have I not figured this out by like, have I not figured this out by like, have I not figured this out by now? And apparently I have not. I I now? And apparently I have not. I I now? And apparently I have not. I I don't know. How do you feel? Like do you don't know. How do you feel? Like do you don't know. How do you feel? Like do you feel a Did you have you ever felt a feel a Did you have you ever felt a feel a Did you have you ever felt a resistance, Judah? resistance, Judah? resistance, Judah? >> Um I've I've got it figured out, Carrie. >> Um I've I've got it figured out, Carrie. >> Um I've I've got it figured out, Carrie. And I think that's the point. Um so I'd And I think that's the point. Um so I'd And I think that's the point. Um so I'd like to speak for my Yeah. resistance. like to speak for my Yeah. resistance. like to speak for my Yeah. resistance. Are you speaking Are you speaking Are you speaking >> for everybody who's got it figured out? >> for everybody who's got it figured out? >> for everybody who's got it figured out? >> Like it depends on what hour of the day. >> Like it depends on what hour of the day. >> Like it depends on what hour of the day. Like I we got into a fight a couple days Like I we got into a fight a couple days Like I we got into a fight a couple days ago and Chelsea was like so her new ago and Chelsea was like so her new ago and Chelsea was like so her new thing in our marriage is like you've got thing in our marriage is like you've got thing in our marriage is like you've got to let me express my emotion. Okay. So to let me express my emotion. Okay. So to let me express my emotion. Okay. So we're getting older and we're starting we're getting older and we're starting we're getting older and we're starting to realize that she like is the stable to realize that she like is the stable to realize that she like is the stable like consistent one and I'm like the like consistent one and I'm like the like consistent one and I'm like the just combustible ball of emotion that's just combustible ball of emotion that's just combustible ball of emotion that's always, you know, bursting. And she's always, you know, bursting. And she's always, you know, bursting. And she's like, "Hey, listen. What I need from you like, "Hey, listen. What I need from you like, "Hey, listen. What I need from you going forward and this happened in going forward and this happened in going forward and this happened in therapy. I need you to give me space for therapy. I need you to give me space for therapy. I need you to give me space for emotion." So, fast forward two days emotion." So, fast forward two days emotion." So, fast forward two days later and she's like sharing frustration later and she's like sharing frustration later and she's like sharing frustration with because she can't there are some with because she can't there are some with because she can't there are some clothes that I was supposed to bring uh clothes that I was supposed to bring uh clothes that I was supposed to bring uh on this uh last trip we went on to do on this uh last trip we went on to do on this uh last trip we went on to do some speaking and I didn't bring the some speaking and I didn't bring the some speaking and I didn't bring the clothes and I I Carrie as God is my clothes and I I Carrie as God is my clothes and I I Carrie as God is my witness. I told myself let her just witness. I told myself let her just witness. I told myself let her just express her emotion. It's not the end of express her emotion. It's not the end of express her emotion. It's not the end of the world. And five minutes later I'm the world. And five minutes later I'm the world. And five minutes later I'm frustrated. I'm expressing and she's frustrated. I'm expressing and she's frustrated. I'm expressing and she's saying it all over again. This is always saying it all over again. This is always saying it all over again. This is always what happens. you give me no space. I'm what happens. you give me no space. I'm what happens. you give me no space. I'm not disappointed in you. I'm simply not disappointed in you. I'm simply not disappointed in you. I'm simply sharing emotion. And she wanted to sleep

sharing emotion. And she wanted to sleep sharing emotion. And she wanted to sleep in separate rooms. I don't want to get in separate rooms. I don't want to get in separate rooms. I don't want to get into the details, but um uh yes, into the details, but um uh yes, into the details, but um uh yes, resistance. Yeah, it depends on what resistance. Yeah, it depends on what resistance. Yeah, it depends on what time of day it is. And and it's time of day it is. And and it's time of day it is. And and it's humiliating to say that, but at the same humiliating to say that, but at the same humiliating to say that, but at the same time, it is kind of why we wrote this time, it is kind of why we wrote this time, it is kind of why we wrote this book. And I can get into more of that book. And I can get into more of that book. And I can get into more of that because there's a big impetus. That's a because there's a big impetus. That's a because there's a big impetus. That's a big This is a passion project for a big This is a passion project for a big This is a passion project for a number of reasons, but a lot of it is number of reasons, but a lot of it is number of reasons, but a lot of it is because of my own resistance to getting because of my own resistance to getting because of my own resistance to getting the help um that I need and in some the help um that I need and in some the help um that I need and in some cases God clearly provides. cases God clearly provides. cases God clearly provides. >> Yeah. Uh I want to ask you both this >> Yeah. Uh I want to ask you both this >> Yeah. Uh I want to ask you both this question in turn. Judah, I'll start with question in turn. Judah, I'll start with question in turn. Judah, I'll start with you, but you and I have talked before you, but you and I have talked before you, but you and I have talked before publicly privately about the pressures publicly privately about the pressures publicly privately about the pressures of ministry. And you know, Les, I want of ministry. And you know, Les, I want of ministry. And you know, Les, I want to I want to get your take on that in a to I want to get your take on that in a to I want to get your take on that in a couple of minutes, but how have the couple of minutes, but how have the couple of minutes, but how have the pressure showed up in your life, in your pressure showed up in your life, in your pressure showed up in your life, in your ministry, in your marriage? Sometimes I ministry, in your marriage? Sometimes I ministry, in your marriage? Sometimes I think ministry is like when you've been think ministry is like when you've been think ministry is like when you've been there, you feel and you see the there, you feel and you see the there, you feel and you see the pressure. So, how has that shown up in pressure. So, how has that shown up in pressure. So, how has that shown up in your life? your life? your life? I think it has felt like delaying the I think it has felt like delaying the I think it has felt like delaying the inevitable, a ticking time bomb. I inevitable, a ticking time bomb. I inevitable, a ticking time bomb. I started to feel like it's only a matter started to feel like it's only a matter started to feel like it's only a matter of time. If this pressure increases at of time. If this pressure increases at of time. If this pressure increases at all, I cannot withstand this. Um, I used all, I cannot withstand this. Um, I used all, I cannot withstand this. Um, I used to think, Carrie, that preachers and to think, Carrie, that preachers and to think, Carrie, that preachers and leaders, um, some like me, some with leaders, um, some like me, some with leaders, um, some like me, some with much larger scale and platform and much larger scale and platform and much larger scale and platform and influence than than I've ever had. I influence than than I've ever had. I influence than than I've ever had. I used to think it was perversion. I used used to think it was perversion. I used used to think it was perversion. I used to think it was greed. I used to think to think it was greed. I used to think to think it was greed. I used to think it was rebellion. I used to think it was it was rebellion. I used to think it was it was rebellion. I used to think it was witchcraft. You know, all these reasons witchcraft. You know, all these reasons witchcraft. You know, all these reasons that people end up sabotaging their

that people end up sabotaging their that people end up sabotaging their life. Now I just realize it's just life. Now I just realize it's just life. Now I just realize it's just weariness, exhaustion, weariness, exhaustion, weariness, exhaustion, fear, anxiety, this feeling that I can't fear, anxiety, this feeling that I can't fear, anxiety, this feeling that I can't keep all these balls in the air at the keep all these balls in the air at the keep all these balls in the air at the same time. Uh I'm going to screw this same time. Uh I'm going to screw this same time. Uh I'm going to screw this up. It's only a matter of time. And I up. It's only a matter of time. And I up. It's only a matter of time. And I didn't know what to do with some of didn't know what to do with some of didn't know what to do with some of those emotions. And it it only compounds those emotions. And it it only compounds those emotions. And it it only compounds when all of a sudden you've got buddies when all of a sudden you've got buddies when all of a sudden you've got buddies doing the same thing. And you're doing the same thing. And you're doing the same thing. And you're starting to wonder, are you okay? and starting to wonder, are you okay? and starting to wonder, are you okay? and they're telling you they're okay only to they're telling you they're okay only to they're telling you they're okay only to find out they haven't been okay the find out they haven't been okay the find out they haven't been okay the whole time and they've been lying to whole time and they've been lying to whole time and they've been lying to you. So then your brain brain plays you. So then your brain brain plays you. So then your brain brain plays tricks on you and you start to think tricks on you and you start to think tricks on you and you start to think like oh my goodness. And then you know like oh my goodness. And then you know like oh my goodness. And then you know if you're in the line of work that I if you're in the line of work that I if you're in the line of work that I chose it's the people business which is chose it's the people business which is chose it's the people business which is I'm honored that it is but all of a I'm honored that it is but all of a I'm honored that it is but all of a sudden I'm thinking I'm going to hurt sudden I'm thinking I'm going to hurt sudden I'm thinking I'm going to hurt people I love. This is crazy. And that people I love. This is crazy. And that people I love. This is crazy. And that mindset settles in over your life like a mindset settles in over your life like a mindset settles in over your life like a dark cloud. And I'm telling you, you got dark cloud. And I'm telling you, you got dark cloud. And I'm telling you, you got you can't get another weather pattern or you can't get another weather pattern or you can't get another weather pattern or another weather system with all that you another weather system with all that you another weather system with all that you do. And you've got to get some help do. And you've got to get some help do. And you've got to get some help beyond you. I needed some objectivity. I beyond you. I needed some objectivity. I beyond you. I needed some objectivity. I needed someone who wasn't on my staff. I needed someone who wasn't on my staff. I needed someone who wasn't on my staff. I needed someone uh who didn't have kind needed someone uh who didn't have kind needed someone uh who didn't have kind of uh, you know, personal interest, you of uh, you know, personal interest, you of uh, you know, personal interest, you know, that wanted to speak at a know, that wanted to speak at a know, that wanted to speak at a conference or wanted to be. And I found conference or wanted to be. And I found conference or wanted to be. And I found that in Lesie and Lesie Parrot and they that in Lesie and Lesie Parrot and they that in Lesie and Lesie Parrot and they were kind enough to sit with Chelsea and were kind enough to sit with Chelsea and were kind enough to sit with Chelsea and I and so began the conversation. And as I and so began the conversation. And as I and so began the conversation. And as I remember it less, it was most of like I remember it less, it was most of like I remember it less, it was most of like all the things we were most afraid of all the things we were most afraid of all the things we were most afraid of and how I felt like I was minutes and and how I felt like I was minutes and and how I felt like I was minutes and moments away from doing the very thing moments away from doing the very thing moments away from doing the very thing that I had despised that some of my

that I had despised that some of my that I had despised that some of my peers and friends and heroes had done. peers and friends and heroes had done. peers and friends and heroes had done. Um, so it felt inevitable, Carrie, which Um, so it felt inevitable, Carrie, which Um, so it felt inevitable, Carrie, which is humiliating to admit. And I needed is humiliating to admit. And I needed is humiliating to admit. And I needed someone that was skilled. And someone that was skilled. And someone that was skilled. And ultimately, I say all that to say, I ultimately, I say all that to say, I ultimately, I say all that to say, I wanted to write a book with my therapist wanted to write a book with my therapist wanted to write a book with my therapist because a lot of preachers or people because a lot of preachers or people because a lot of preachers or people like me that maybe aren't preachers. like me that maybe aren't preachers. like me that maybe aren't preachers. First of all, therapy is expensive. But First of all, therapy is expensive. But First of all, therapy is expensive. But second of all, where do I go? Who do I second of all, where do I go? Who do I second of all, where do I go? Who do I go to? Who do I call? I don't know. What go to? Who do I call? I don't know. What go to? Who do I call? I don't know. What if I just put it in a book form and if I just put it in a book form and if I just put it in a book form and said, "Here's all of my stuff. Here's said, "Here's all of my stuff. Here's said, "Here's all of my stuff. Here's what we went through. Here's what we what we went through. Here's what we what we went through. Here's what we processed." And perhaps it could it processed." And perhaps it could it processed." And perhaps it could it could start the cycle of relieving some could start the cycle of relieving some could start the cycle of relieving some of that inevitable feelings of doom and of that inevitable feelings of doom and of that inevitable feelings of doom and uh a sense of of hopefulness. And if uh a sense of of hopefulness. And if uh a sense of of hopefulness. And if nothing else, Lesie and Lesie looked at nothing else, Lesie and Lesie looked at nothing else, Lesie and Lesie looked at Chelsea and I and I do remember this Chelsea and I and I do remember this Chelsea and I and I do remember this feeling and I remember feeling this feeling and I remember feeling this feeling and I remember feeling this overwhelming sense. We're not crazy. overwhelming sense. We're not crazy. overwhelming sense. We're not crazy. We're not alone. This isn't insane. This We're not alone. This isn't insane. This We're not alone. This isn't insane. This is very normal. This is very real. is very normal. This is very real. is very normal. This is very real. You're gonna make it through. We're You're gonna make it through. We're You're gonna make it through. We're going to help you. And that feeling going to help you. And that feeling going to help you. And that feeling alone, Carrie, was like, man, it was alone, Carrie, was like, man, it was alone, Carrie, was like, man, it was like we had been holding our breath for like we had been holding our breath for like we had been holding our breath for weeks, you know, and we finally got weeks, you know, and we finally got weeks, you know, and we finally got oxygen.

oxygen. oxygen. >> So, Judy, you said something in there >> So, Judy, you said something in there >> So, Judy, you said something in there that was interesting to me. You said that was interesting to me. You said that was interesting to me. You said therapy is expensive. You want to camp therapy is expensive. You want to camp therapy is expensive. You want to camp out on that just a minute cuz I don't out on that just a minute cuz I don't out on that just a minute cuz I don't remember sending you an invoice yet remember sending you an invoice yet remember sending you an invoice yet after 15 years. So, um, after 15 years. So, um, after 15 years. So, um, >> come on. It's cost >> come on. It's cost >> come on. It's cost >> now. Wait for your phone to blow up, >> now. Wait for your phone to blow up, >> now. Wait for your phone to blow up, Les. Come on. >> It was free, Carrie. I'm not going to >> It was free, Carrie. I'm not going to lie, it was free, baby. lie, it was free, baby. lie, it was free, baby. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> I know how I would answer that question, >> I know how I would answer that question, >> I know how I would answer that question, Carrie. Carrie. Carrie. >> Yeah. I'd love And you know what I love >> Yeah. I'd love And you know what I love >> Yeah. I'd love And you know what I love about the position that you and your about the position that you and your about the position that you and your wife sit in is you see patterns. Tony wife sit in is you see patterns. Tony wife sit in is you see patterns. Tony did uh family law for a while and I was did uh family law for a while and I was did uh family law for a while and I was she can never disclose client she can never disclose client she can never disclose client information. Never wanted her to, but information. Never wanted her to, but information. Never wanted her to, but like she would tell me patterns. Oh, like she would tell me patterns. Oh, like she would tell me patterns. Oh, when this happens, then this happens and when this happens, then this happens and when this happens, then this happens and this happens. and you've you've met this happens. and you've you've met this happens. and you've you've met with, you know, Judah and Chelsea, but with, you know, Judah and Chelsea, but with, you know, Judah and Chelsea, but obviously many other ministry leaders obviously many other ministry leaders obviously many other ministry leaders and leaders and you get to see patterns and leaders and you get to see patterns and leaders and you get to see patterns as they develop, which I think is as they develop, which I think is as they develop, which I think is fascinating. fascinating. fascinating. >> That is true. That and it's it's an >> That is true. That and it's it's an >> That is true. That and it's it's an honor. It's a privilege to be able to do honor. It's a privilege to be able to do honor. It's a privilege to be able to do that. Um, but you're right. You kind of that. Um, but you're right. You kind of that. Um, but you're right. You kind of you have to cloak that all in you have to cloak that all in you have to cloak that all in confidentiality, which is the unique confidentiality, which is the unique confidentiality, which is the unique thing with Judah. Judah is just out thing with Judah. Judah is just out thing with Judah. Judah is just out there.

there. there. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. So So So um but uh when you think about the um but uh when you think about the um but uh when you think about the pressures in ministry for me it the the pressures in ministry for me it the the pressures in ministry for me it the the word that comes to mind is congruence. I word that comes to mind is congruence. I word that comes to mind is congruence. I just um I think that that is the biggest just um I think that that is the biggest just um I think that that is the biggest pressure that I feel in the kind of pressure that I feel in the kind of pressure that I feel in the kind of ministry. I don't have the traditional ministry. I don't have the traditional ministry. I don't have the traditional ministry of preaching a church every ministry of preaching a church every ministry of preaching a church every Sunday. But I sure preach in a lot of Sunday. But I sure preach in a lot of Sunday. But I sure preach in a lot of churches around the country and talk to churches around the country and talk to churches around the country and talk to a lot of pastors. But I do remember a lot of pastors. But I do remember a lot of pastors. But I do remember Jude. I don't know if I've ever told you Jude. I don't know if I've ever told you Jude. I don't know if I've ever told you this story, but Leslie and I, this was this story, but Leslie and I, this was this story, but Leslie and I, this was this was before we all had GPS's on our this was before we all had GPS's on our this was before we all had GPS's on our in our hands and and uh we were trying in our hands and and uh we were trying in our hands and and uh we were trying to find a church that we were giving a to find a church that we were giving a to find a church that we were giving a seminar at in Portland, Oregon. So, we seminar at in Portland, Oregon. So, we seminar at in Portland, Oregon. So, we drove from our hometown from in Seattle drove from our hometown from in Seattle drove from our hometown from in Seattle down to Portland and we just we've had down to Portland and we just we've had down to Portland and we just we've had this script in our marriage before we this script in our marriage before we this script in our marriage before we all had the GPS uh system working in our all had the GPS uh system working in our all had the GPS uh system working in our favor. By the way, do you know the the favor. By the way, do you know the the favor. By the way, do you know the the number of marital conflicts a simple GPS number of marital conflicts a simple GPS number of marital conflicts a simple GPS has resolved? Think back to the day. has resolved? Think back to the day. has resolved? Think back to the day. >> You know, >> You know, >> You know, get in the left lane. I am in the left get in the left lane. I am in the left get in the left lane. I am in the left lane.

lane. lane. >> But anyway, we're we're trying to find >> But anyway, we're we're trying to find >> But anyway, we're we're trying to find this church. And it got to the point this church. And it got to the point this church. And it got to the point because of this script that we've had because of this script that we've had because of this script that we've had for a long time and Lesie not helping for a long time and Lesie not helping for a long time and Lesie not helping me. And I grew up in a home where mom me. And I grew up in a home where mom me. And I grew up in a home where mom always did the navigating for dad and always did the navigating for dad and always did the navigating for dad and the car and had the maps out and all the car and had the maps out and all the car and had the maps out and all that kind of stuff. And Lesie just that kind of stuff. And Lesie just that kind of stuff. And Lesie just didn't she didn't see that modeled. And didn't she didn't see that modeled. And didn't she didn't see that modeled. And so it was frustrating to me. And anyway, so it was frustrating to me. And anyway, so it was frustrating to me. And anyway, we got to a point. Have either of you we got to a point. Have either of you we got to a point. Have either of you ever made your wives cry in the car? ever made your wives cry in the car? ever made your wives cry in the car? >> Never. Not once. >> Never. Not once. >> Never. Not once. >> Next question. Next question. Next >> Next question. Next question. Next >> Next question. Next question. Next question. question. question. >> So Leslie is crying and and uh and we're >> So Leslie is crying and and uh and we're >> So Leslie is crying and and uh and we're late to this event where we have several late to this event where we have several late to this event where we have several hundred people waiting for us in this hundred people waiting for us in this hundred people waiting for us in this sanctuary to talk about marriage. sanctuary to talk about marriage. sanctuary to talk about marriage. >> So the experts are late and the wife is >> So the experts are late and the wife is >> So the experts are late and the wife is crying. crying. crying. >> Exactly. And we pull around this corner >> Exactly. And we pull around this corner >> Exactly. And we pull around this corner and there's this huge billboard and it's and there's this huge billboard and it's and there's this huge billboard and it's a picture of Lesie and me and I'm a picture of Lesie and me and I'm a picture of Lesie and me and I'm holding her up in the air and it's very holding her up in the air and it's very holding her up in the air and it's very romantic and it says becoming soulmates romantic and it says becoming soulmates romantic and it says becoming soulmates with doctors less and lessly parrot and with doctors less and lessly parrot and with doctors less and lessly parrot and here we are. I just made my wife here we are. I just made my wife here we are. I just made my wife >> not talking to each other >> not talking to each other >> not talking to each other >> and the church the church is right there >> and the church the church is right there >> and the church the church is right there and Leslie said just keep driving, you and Leslie said just keep driving, you and Leslie said just keep driving, you know.

know. know. So that idea of being being congruent, So that idea of being being congruent, So that idea of being being congruent, you know, you think we went up to the you know, you think we went up to the you know, you think we went up to the the platform and went, "Hey guys, we the platform and went, "Hey guys, we the platform and went, "Hey guys, we just had a big fight in our car on the just had a big fight in our car on the just had a big fight in our car on the way down here." Of course not. We have way down here." Of course not. We have way down here." Of course not. We have to put on a face and and go through the to put on a face and and go through the to put on a face and and go through the motions when it just doesn't feel, you motions when it just doesn't feel, you motions when it just doesn't feel, you know, congruent. Doesn't feel genuine. know, congruent. Doesn't feel genuine. know, congruent. Doesn't feel genuine. That's the biggest kind of I think That's the biggest kind of I think That's the biggest kind of I think pressure for me is that the u when pressure for me is that the u when pressure for me is that the u when you're on you have to be on and I think you're on you have to be on and I think you're on you have to be on and I think that's true for a lot of people in that's true for a lot of people in that's true for a lot of people in leadership that speak leadership that speak leadership that speak you and I were talking about pace over you and I were talking about pace over you and I were talking about pace over the years and you had a certain point at the years and you had a certain point at the years and you had a certain point at which you had how many services midweek? which you had how many services midweek? which you had how many services midweek? >> Well, I was averaging like 11 weekends a >> Well, I was averaging like 11 weekends a >> Well, I was averaging like 11 weekends a week. Yeah. 11 sermons a week was was week. Yeah. 11 sermons a week was was week. Yeah. 11 sermons a week was was average. Sometimes it was a bit more. average. Sometimes it was a bit more. average. Sometimes it was a bit more. Um, yeah, it was it was uh it was a lot. Um, yeah, it was it was uh it was a lot. Um, yeah, it was it was uh it was a lot. It was a lot. It was a lot. It was a lot. >> What did that feel like at the time? >> What did that feel like at the time? >> What did that feel like at the time? >> Yeah, it felt like I was juggling three >> Yeah, it felt like I was juggling three >> Yeah, it felt like I was juggling three and then someone threw in four and then and then someone threw in four and then and then someone threw in four and then they were like, "Now we got to go to the they were like, "Now we got to go to the they were like, "Now we got to go to the grocery store and get groceries." And it grocery store and get groceries." And it grocery store and get groceries." And it was like, "Wait, but I'm going to still was like, "Wait, but I'm going to still was like, "Wait, but I'm going to still juggle this." Like, this is this is juggle this." Like, this is this is juggle this." Like, this is this is crazy. And and yet I would call my crazy. And and yet I would call my crazy. And and yet I would call my mentors and I would say and I've mentors and I would say and I've mentors and I would say and I've expressed kind of this story before. We expressed kind of this story before. We expressed kind of this story before. We were growing at a rate that I we had were growing at a rate that I we had were growing at a rate that I we had prayed for I guess and it was like prayed for I guess and it was like prayed for I guess and it was like always like in my in my tradition it was always like in my in my tradition it was always like in my in my tradition it was like revival. So but every mentor I like revival. So but every mentor I like revival. So but every mentor I called Carrie just kept telling me start called Carrie just kept telling me start called Carrie just kept telling me start more services. So then I was like,

more services. So then I was like, more services. So then I was like, "Wait, wait, we so nobody has a plan "Wait, wait, we so nobody has a plan "Wait, wait, we so nobody has a plan here." Like, "Wait, we haven't played here." Like, "Wait, we haven't played here." Like, "Wait, we haven't played this out that if like multi-sight, this out that if like multi-sight, this out that if like multi-sight, multi-service." So wait a minute. It multi-service." So wait a minute. It multi-service." So wait a minute. It became apparent to me that nobody played became apparent to me that nobody played became apparent to me that nobody played this out to its extreme. Meaning it this out to its extreme. Meaning it this out to its extreme. Meaning it wasn't sustainable. Like cuz I did it. I wasn't sustainable. Like cuz I did it. I wasn't sustainable. Like cuz I did it. I I added a bunch of buildings and I added a bunch of buildings and I added a bunch of buildings and services and and before I knew it, um services and and before I knew it, um services and and before I knew it, um well, I felt like a caricature. I felt well, I felt like a caricature. I felt well, I felt like a caricature. I felt like a caricature and I I never wanted like a caricature and I I never wanted like a caricature and I I never wanted to be a pro speaker. I wanted to be this to be a pro speaker. I wanted to be this to be a pro speaker. I wanted to be this congruent human. Like those were my congruent human. Like those were my congruent human. Like those were my heroes. My dad was one of the more heroes. My dad was one of the more heroes. My dad was one of the more congruent men that I knew. And the congruent men that I knew. And the congruent men that I knew. And the stories he would tell were real. They stories he would tell were real. They stories he would tell were real. They weren't really exaggerated. And like his weren't really exaggerated. And like his weren't really exaggerated. And like his love for Jesus was like he cried about love for Jesus was like he cried about love for Jesus was like he cried about it on stage and off. And it was like a it on stage and off. And it was like a it on stage and off. And it was like a thing. And I thought that was thing. And I thought that was thing. And I thought that was attractive. And I bought into that. And attractive. And I bought into that. And attractive. And I bought into that. And suddenly I was in a space and I was in a suddenly I was in a space and I was in a suddenly I was in a space and I was in a delivery system where I I couldn't. delivery system where I I couldn't. delivery system where I I couldn't. Nobody's that spiritual. Nobody feels Nobody's that spiritual. Nobody feels Nobody's that spiritual. Nobody feels Jesus, you know, that many times a week. Jesus, you know, that many times a week. Jesus, you know, that many times a week. Nobody has new content that much. Nobody Nobody has new content that much. Nobody Nobody has new content that much. Nobody is like praying enough to sustain 11 is like praying enough to sustain 11 is like praying enough to sustain 11 sermons. And in some cases, I would sermons. And in some cases, I would sermons. And in some cases, I would speak as many as six new ones a week.

speak as many as six new ones a week. speak as many as six new ones a week. And it was just like, guys, I can't I And it was just like, guys, I can't I And it was just like, guys, I can't I can't even be a human and prepare this can't even be a human and prepare this can't even be a human and prepare this much content. Like, and so it got out of much content. Like, and so it got out of much content. Like, and so it got out of order and it got wonky. And I woke up order and it got wonky. And I woke up order and it got wonky. And I woke up one day not knowing what year it was and one day not knowing what year it was and one day not knowing what year it was and exactly what city I was in and started exactly what city I was in and started exactly what city I was in and started calling friends of mine and they said, calling friends of mine and they said, calling friends of mine and they said, "Man, you're you're you're close to a "Man, you're you're you're close to a "Man, you're you're you're close to a real physical, mental, emotional real physical, mental, emotional real physical, mental, emotional breakdown." And I think if I'm not breakdown." And I think if I'm not breakdown." And I think if I'm not mistaken, it was right around that time mistaken, it was right around that time mistaken, it was right around that time we called Leslie and Lesie and and a lot we called Leslie and Lesie and and a lot we called Leslie and Lesie and and a lot has changed since then. And I'm happy to has changed since then. And I'm happy to has changed since then. And I'm happy to announce that and and so far so good. announce that and and so far so good. announce that and and so far so good. So, So, So, >> what are some of the other frequent >> what are some of the other frequent >> what are some of the other frequent flyer issues you've seen less in your flyer issues you've seen less in your flyer issues you've seen less in your work with leaders? work with leaders? work with leaders? Um, I love that question because it Um, I love that question because it Um, I love that question because it always gets me to have to think about always gets me to have to think about always gets me to have to think about the patterns that you mentioned. This the patterns that you mentioned. This the patterns that you mentioned. This one might surprise you, but honestly, I one might surprise you, but honestly, I one might surprise you, but honestly, I think it's um lately a loss of think it's um lately a loss of think it's um lately a loss of imagination. imagination. imagination. >> Um, and I know you're probably going, >> Um, and I know you're probably going, >> Um, and I know you're probably going, "Well, what about depression? What about "Well, what about depression? What about "Well, what about depression? What about anxiety?" And yeah, and all that stuff's anxiety?" And yeah, and all that stuff's anxiety?" And yeah, and all that stuff's there, but a loss of imagination. And there, but a loss of imagination. And there, but a loss of imagination. And the reason I say that, did you guys see the reason I say that, did you guys see the reason I say that, did you guys see that study by Bara that showed that 70% that study by Bara that showed that 70% that study by Bara that showed that 70% of Christians feel discouraged about of Christians feel discouraged about of Christians feel discouraged about their future?

their future? their future? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> So that's a big loss of vision, right? >> So that's a big loss of vision, right? >> So that's a big loss of vision, right? It and it that like erodess hope. And so It and it that like erodess hope. And so It and it that like erodess hope. And so I I I that that's where I start. It's I I I that that's where I start. It's I I I that that's where I start. It's just if you can't see, just if you can't see, just if you can't see, if you're not envisioning the future, if you're not envisioning the future, if you're not envisioning the future, you're in survival mode. Right. Um, and you're in survival mode. Right. Um, and you're in survival mode. Right. Um, and so I see that a lot. Um, I see so I see that a lot. Um, I see so I see that a lot. Um, I see loneliness. It's off the charts. We all loneliness. It's off the charts. We all loneliness. It's off the charts. We all know that it's predictable. Even in a know that it's predictable. Even in a know that it's predictable. Even in a crowded room or in full churches, we can crowded room or in full churches, we can crowded room or in full churches, we can feel lonely. Um, and uh, lots of feel lonely. Um, and uh, lots of feel lonely. Um, and uh, lots of pastors. In the last I think it's the pastors. In the last I think it's the pastors. In the last I think it's the last five six years the level of last five six years the level of last five six years the level of loneliness for pastors has moved from loneliness for pastors has moved from loneliness for pastors has moved from like around 40 low 40% to the mid60% like around 40 low 40% to the mid60% like around 40 low 40% to the mid60% of reporting feeling frequently lonely. of reporting feeling frequently lonely. of reporting feeling frequently lonely. That's crazy, right? Um so that's a big That's crazy, right? Um so that's a big That's crazy, right? Um so that's a big one. And then uh the other one that one. And then uh the other one that one. And then uh the other one that comes to mind for me, Carrie, is what I comes to mind for me, Carrie, is what I comes to mind for me, Carrie, is what I would just call a loss of relationship would just call a loss of relationship would just call a loss of relationship muscle, like the relational muscle that muscle, like the relational muscle that muscle, like the relational muscle that we need to be strong. You know, it's we need to be strong. You know, it's we need to be strong. You know, it's just so easy to ghost, to scroll, to just so easy to ghost, to scroll, to just so easy to ghost, to scroll, to shut down, to move on, to avoid, to shut down, to move on, to avoid, to shut down, to move on, to avoid, to bury. And bury. And bury. And so it's emotional intelligence. That's so it's emotional intelligence. That's so it's emotional intelligence. That's the big I think that's the one that the big I think that's the one that the big I think that's the one that hurts my heart the most. And hurts my heart the most. And hurts my heart the most. And >> I'm glad you raised relationship. We

>> I'm glad you raised relationship. We >> I'm glad you raised relationship. We talk about it a lot on this podcast, but talk about it a lot on this podcast, but talk about it a lot on this podcast, but you know, I was at two events. Uh you know, I was at two events. Uh you know, I was at two events. Uh obviously we're regular partakers at our obviously we're regular partakers at our obviously we're regular partakers at our church. And I was there Sunday morning, church. And I was there Sunday morning, church. And I was there Sunday morning, but uh Sunday night I was at an event in but uh Sunday night I was at an event in but uh Sunday night I was at an event in the community. It was small. Um it was the community. It was small. Um it was the community. It was small. Um it was like a tutorial in person. It was at a like a tutorial in person. It was at a like a tutorial in person. It was at a butcher shop. And I just wanted to learn butcher shop. And I just wanted to learn butcher shop. And I just wanted to learn more about meat cuz I love that's one of more about meat cuz I love that's one of more about meat cuz I love that's one of my hobbies. And there were like 12 of us my hobbies. And there were like 12 of us my hobbies. And there were like 12 of us who signed up for it. And what shocked who signed up for it. And what shocked who signed up for it. And what shocked me, and I had this at another like a me, and I had this at another like a me, and I had this at another like a fitness meetup that I was at, again, not fitness meetup that I was at, again, not fitness meetup that I was at, again, not church events, but it was eerily silent. church events, but it was eerily silent. church events, but it was eerily silent. There's 12 of us standing in this small There's 12 of us standing in this small There's 12 of us standing in this small shop and nobody's talking to each other. shop and nobody's talking to each other. shop and nobody's talking to each other. And I'm like, "Oh, am I going to be the And I'm like, "Oh, am I going to be the And I'm like, "Oh, am I going to be the guy?" And and a couple of the guys guy?" And and a couple of the guys guy?" And and a couple of the guys brought their spouses and they weren't brought their spouses and they weren't brought their spouses and they weren't talking to each other. And so I quietly talking to each other. And so I quietly talking to each other. And so I quietly introduced myself to the owners. And introduced myself to the owners. And introduced myself to the owners. And then it was like it was this weird like then it was like it was this weird like then it was like it was this weird like awkward thing. And I've noticed that in awkward thing. And I've noticed that in awkward thing. And I've noticed that in other meetups I've had that are outside other meetups I've had that are outside other meetups I've had that are outside of the church that are small. Nobody of the church that are small. Nobody of the church that are small. Nobody like we've lost that relational muscle.

like we've lost that relational muscle. like we've lost that relational muscle. And I'm like, well, this is good news And I'm like, well, this is good news And I'm like, well, this is good news for the church cuz I was at church for the church cuz I was at church for the church cuz I was at church Sunday morning and that we know how to Sunday morning and that we know how to Sunday morning and that we know how to talk to each other, which is awesome. talk to each other, which is awesome. talk to each other, which is awesome. But like it is it is becoming like a But like it is it is becoming like a But like it is it is becoming like a real crisis. real crisis. real crisis. >> Yeah. And it's a sense of um you know, >> Yeah. And it's a sense of um you know, >> Yeah. And it's a sense of um you know, some researchers call it emotional some researchers call it emotional some researchers call it emotional blindness. We did we can't even identify blindness. We did we can't even identify blindness. We did we can't even identify our feelings uh to be able to talk about our feelings uh to be able to talk about our feelings uh to be able to talk about them. them. them. >> And so you can't go below the surface, >> And so you can't go below the surface, >> And so you can't go below the surface, you know, you you talk topically about you know, you you talk topically about you know, you you talk topically about the weather and the sports and what you the weather and the sports and what you the weather and the sports and what you watched on Netflix or whatever, but to watched on Netflix or whatever, but to watched on Netflix or whatever, but to talk about feelings, talk about feelings, talk about feelings, that's scary, right? Especially when you that's scary, right? Especially when you that's scary, right? Especially when you can't navigate them yourselves. And so can't navigate them yourselves. And so can't navigate them yourselves. And so that emotional intelligence within the that emotional intelligence within the that emotional intelligence within the church, I think, is still something church, I think, is still something church, I think, is still something that's a struggle. Um, and you got to that's a struggle. Um, and you got to that's a struggle. Um, and you got to get clarity to do that. But it's do do get clarity to do that. But it's do do get clarity to do that. But it's do do you know what the sing this was a study you know what the sing this was a study you know what the sing this was a study that came out in u I think it was the that came out in u I think it was the that came out in u I think it was the Harvard Business uh journal um uh that Harvard Business uh journal um uh that Harvard Business uh journal um uh that uh review that said the single most uh review that said the single most uh review that said the single most important question in a conversation.

important question in a conversation. important question in a conversation. They identified it. This was a study. They identified it. This was a study. They identified it. This was a study. The single most important question in a The single most important question in a The single most important question in a conversation because we all start with conversation because we all start with conversation because we all start with what? What do you do? Right? Oh, I'm a what? What do you do? Right? Oh, I'm a what? What do you do? Right? Oh, I'm a lawyer. You know, I'm I own my own lawyer. You know, I'm I own my own lawyer. You know, I'm I own my own business. Whatever that the thing is. business. Whatever that the thing is. business. Whatever that the thing is. And then the single most important And then the single most important And then the single most important question. Do either of you know? question. Do either of you know? question. Do either of you know? >> How do you feel? >> How do you feel? >> How do you feel? >> No. It's a good one though, Judah. It's >> No. It's a good one though, Judah. It's >> No. It's a good one though, Judah. It's uh the follow-up question. uh the follow-up question. uh the follow-up question. The followup question. The followup question. The followup question. >> Wow. I love that. >> Wow. I love that. >> Wow. I love that. >> Just to follow up with that. Do you >> Just to follow up with that. Do you >> Just to follow up with that. Do you enjoy being a lawyer? I bet you that was enjoy being a lawyer? I bet you that was enjoy being a lawyer? I bet you that was Was that your dream? You know, anything Was that your dream? You know, anything Was that your dream? You know, anything to follow up on it. So good. to follow up on it. So good. to follow up on it. So good. >> That is really good. >> That is really good. >> That is really good. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Because otherwise we just move >> Yeah. Because otherwise we just move >> Yeah. Because otherwise we just move into, oh yeah, I have a cousin who's a into, oh yeah, I have a cousin who's a into, oh yeah, I have a cousin who's a lawyer or I wanted to be a lawyer and we lawyer or I wanted to be a lawyer and we lawyer or I wanted to be a lawyer and we just we don't even ask. just we don't even ask. just we don't even ask. >> That's exactly right. That's exactly >> That's exactly right. That's exactly >> That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And what you want to do, I don't right. And what you want to do, I don't right. And what you want to do, I don't know if you guys ever read that book um know if you guys ever read that book um know if you guys ever read that book um by David um uh you know, how to know a by David um uh you know, how to know a by David um uh you know, how to know a person um person um person um >> David Brooks.

>> David Brooks. >> David Brooks. >> Yeah, David Brooks, >> Yeah, David Brooks, >> Yeah, David Brooks, >> podcast alumni. >> podcast alumni. >> podcast alumni. >> Yeah, I love I loved his his book on how >> Yeah, I love I loved his his book on how >> Yeah, I love I loved his his book on how to know a person. and he talks about to know a person. and he talks about to know a person. and he talks about illuminating another person. How do you illuminating another person. How do you illuminating another person. How do you illuminate someone? And uh and and by illuminate someone? And uh and and by illuminate someone? And uh and and by the way, as an aside, I'll do a little the way, as an aside, I'll do a little the way, as an aside, I'll do a little name drop here. Well, maybe I shouldn't name drop here. Well, maybe I shouldn't name drop here. Well, maybe I shouldn't even do that, but I called a well-known even do that, but I called a well-known even do that, but I called a well-known pastor who I went to seminary with. And pastor who I went to seminary with. And pastor who I went to seminary with. And >> well, now we're all wondering, but >> well, now we're all wondering, but >> well, now we're all wondering, but >> Okay. John >> Okay. John >> Okay. John Ortberg. I'll just put it up. Ortberg. I'll just put it up. Ortberg. I'll just put it up. >> Oh, John. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, John. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, John. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And I said to John, I said, "Hey, I just >> And I said to John, I said, "Hey, I just >> And I said to John, I said, "Hey, I just read this book." I said, 'I'm in a small read this book." I said, 'I'm in a small read this book." I said, 'I'm in a small group with some other guys. They're group with some other guys. They're group with some other guys. They're terrible at illuminating me. I need terrible at illuminating me. I need terrible at illuminating me. I need somebody, and John, you know, he's a somebody, and John, you know, he's a somebody, and John, you know, he's a psychologist as well as pastor. And I psychologist as well as pastor. And I psychologist as well as pastor. And I said, I need somebody to illuminate me. said, I need somebody to illuminate me. said, I need somebody to illuminate me. Would you do that? Would you do that? Would you do that? Yes. Yes. Yes. It was the most selfish phone call I've It was the most selfish phone call I've It was the most selfish phone call I've ever made. ever made. ever made. >> Um, but you know, it's it's something >> Um, but you know, it's it's something >> Um, but you know, it's it's something that we just don't get many places, you that we just don't get many places, you that we just don't get many places, you know, and so yeah, those are the know, and so yeah, those are the know, and so yeah, those are the frequent flyer issues that I see.

frequent flyer issues that I see. frequent flyer issues that I see. Carrie, Carrie, Carrie, >> thank you for that. And Jada, you said >> thank you for that. And Jada, you said >> thank you for that. And Jada, you said something and I forget the exact something and I forget the exact something and I forget the exact phrasing, but you said that sort of the phrasing, but you said that sort of the phrasing, but you said that sort of the the pull toward moral failure just the pull toward moral failure just the pull toward moral failure just seemed inevitable. And the way you saw seemed inevitable. And the way you saw seemed inevitable. And the way you saw it, it's not witchcraft, it's just the it, it's not witchcraft, it's just the it, it's not witchcraft, it's just the monotony, the boredom, the lack of monotony, the boredom, the lack of monotony, the boredom, the lack of imagination, all of those things. But imagination, all of those things. But imagination, all of those things. But you said, you know, with a bad decision you said, you know, with a bad decision you said, you know, with a bad decision that would hurt most the people I love that would hurt most the people I love that would hurt most the people I love or something like that. I'd like for or something like that. I'd like for or something like that. I'd like for either of you, both of you, to break either of you, both of you, to break either of you, both of you, to break that down a little bit. What how does that down a little bit. What how does that down a little bit. What how does that happen? Yeah. Because, you know, I that happen? Yeah. Because, you know, I that happen? Yeah. Because, you know, I think it's easy on the outside looking think it's easy on the outside looking think it's easy on the outside looking in to say so and so decided to become a in to say so and so decided to become a in to say so and so decided to become a bad person or was never sincere in the bad person or was never sincere in the bad person or was never sincere in the first place or, you know, is just first place or, you know, is just first place or, you know, is just diabolical or possessed by a demon or diabolical or possessed by a demon or diabolical or possessed by a demon or whatever. We we we we make it so whatever. We we we we make it so whatever. We we we we make it so unnormal that we don't see ourselves unnormal that we don't see ourselves unnormal that we don't see ourselves as possibly falling into the same trap. as possibly falling into the same trap. as possibly falling into the same trap. And I'd love for you to kind of explain And I'd love for you to kind of explain And I'd love for you to kind of explain a little bit more of what you saw or a little bit more of what you saw or a little bit more of what you saw or what you felt.

what you felt. what you felt. >> Well, I I actually have a story and we >> Well, I I actually have a story and we >> Well, I I actually have a story and we will not share the name, but um a peer will not share the name, but um a peer will not share the name, but um a peer of mine shared my name. Come on, of mine shared my name. Come on, of mine shared my name. Come on, >> pastor Fred. No, I definitely can't >> pastor Fred. No, I definitely can't >> pastor Fred. No, I definitely can't share this name, but as a pastor friend share this name, but as a pastor friend share this name, but as a pastor friend and I remember uh Les was the first and I remember uh Les was the first and I remember uh Les was the first person I had ever heard describe this. I person I had ever heard describe this. I person I had ever heard describe this. I was frustrated with their course of was frustrated with their course of was frustrated with their course of action and a decision that they had made action and a decision that they had made action and a decision that they had made that was very public and I said to Les, that was very public and I said to Les, that was very public and I said to Les, "I don't get it. Why would that this "I don't get it. Why would that this "I don't get it. Why would that this isn't what's best for the community? It isn't what's best for the community? It isn't what's best for the community? It was confusing. It was frustrating. It was confusing. It was frustrating. It was confusing. It was frustrating. It was agitating whatever." And Les goes, was agitating whatever." And Les goes, was agitating whatever." And Les goes, "Oh, that's easy. That's sabotage. "Oh, that's easy. That's sabotage. "Oh, that's easy. That's sabotage. That's a that's a leader that That's a that's a leader that That's a that's a leader that >> can't keep it up. Can't can't keep up >> can't keep it up. Can't can't keep up >> can't keep it up. Can't can't keep up the the the presentation, the pretense, the the the presentation, the pretense, the the the presentation, the pretense, the pressure can't keep it up. And so the pressure can't keep it up. And so the pressure can't keep it up. And so they're going to now sabotage it so that they're going to now sabotage it so that they're going to now sabotage it so that they have a way to get out. And so the they have a way to get out. And so the they have a way to get out. And so the church went from this massive thing church went from this massive thing church went from this massive thing growing and then it and then it didn't. growing and then it and then it didn't. growing and then it and then it didn't. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And I remember feeling that way to less >> And I remember feeling that way to less >> And I remember feeling that way to less like this isn't going to this is going like this isn't going to this is going like this isn't going to this is going to breed mistrust. is going to be to breed mistrust. is going to be to breed mistrust. is going to be frustrating and confusing. And Les was frustrating and confusing. And Les was frustrating and confusing. And Les was like, "Oh, yeah. Well, that's that like, "Oh, yeah. Well, that's that like, "Oh, yeah. Well, that's that leader's way of getting out from under leader's way of getting out from under leader's way of getting out from under the pressure." And I think that story the pressure." And I think that story the pressure." And I think that story and example exemplifies to me what I and example exemplifies to me what I and example exemplifies to me what I didn't know when I was younger. I didn't know when I was younger. I didn't know when I was younger. I thought guys just had a sex problem.

thought guys just had a sex problem. thought guys just had a sex problem. >> I just thought guys had a cheating >> I just thought guys had a cheating >> I just thought guys had a cheating problem, a lying problem, a greed problem, a lying problem, a greed problem, a lying problem, a greed problem. Now, I think more often than problem. Now, I think more often than problem. Now, I think more often than not, it's just a pressure problem and not, it's just a pressure problem and not, it's just a pressure problem and it's a messiah complex and they think it's a messiah complex and they think it's a messiah complex and they think that they hold the world up. And a that they hold the world up. And a that they hold the world up. And a friend of mine out of the blue said, "I friend of mine out of the blue said, "I friend of mine out of the blue said, "I was praying for you today and God told was praying for you today and God told was praying for you today and God told me to tell you that you have quite me to tell you that you have quite me to tell you that you have quite misplaced being needed and known. You misplaced being needed and known. You misplaced being needed and known. You think the more people need you, the more think the more people need you, the more think the more people need you, the more you're known, but the two are not the you're known, but the two are not the you're known, but the two are not the same." And God told me to tell you that. same." And God told me to tell you that. same." And God told me to tell you that. And I was like, "Well, that's And I was like, "Well, that's And I was like, "Well, that's frustrating because it's so accurate and frustrating because it's so accurate and frustrating because it's so accurate and true. It's annoying. I do. I think if I true. It's annoying. I do. I think if I true. It's annoying. I do. I think if I can be needed, I'm needed as the can be needed, I'm needed as the can be needed, I'm needed as the preacher. I'm needed as the man of God, preacher. I'm needed as the man of God, preacher. I'm needed as the man of God, then people know me and I'm known and then people know me and I'm known and then people know me and I'm known and I'm I'm I'm and and they're not the same I'm I'm I'm and and they're not the same I'm I'm I'm and and they're not the same thing, are they? And I know that feeling thing, are they? And I know that feeling thing, are they? And I know that feeling of you despise the pressure, but of you despise the pressure, but of you despise the pressure, but secretly you love it because you feel secretly you love it because you feel secretly you love it because you feel necessary and needed. So, it's this real necessary and needed. So, it's this real necessary and needed. So, it's this real sadistic razor edge thing that you live sadistic razor edge thing that you live sadistic razor edge thing that you live on because you kind of get addicted to on because you kind of get addicted to on because you kind of get addicted to the fact that everybody needs your gift the fact that everybody needs your gift the fact that everybody needs your gift or what you bring and then you go home or what you bring and then you go home or what you bring and then you go home and kind of despise it. Kind of like the and kind of despise it. Kind of like the and kind of despise it. Kind of like the frustrated artist because like people frustrated artist because like people frustrated artist because like people have no idea how hard it is to be me.

have no idea how hard it is to be me. have no idea how hard it is to be me. And it's this whole like weird selfish And it's this whole like weird selfish And it's this whole like weird selfish cycle that you go through. And uh I tell cycle that you go through. And uh I tell cycle that you go through. And uh I tell you this, I knew I wanted out of that you this, I knew I wanted out of that you this, I knew I wanted out of that cuz that wasn't getting me anywhere but cuz that wasn't getting me anywhere but cuz that wasn't getting me anywhere but nowhere good. So, um, nowhere good. So, um, nowhere good. So, um, >> wow. >> wow. >> wow. >> That's some of my thoughts on that. >> That's some of my thoughts on that. >> That's some of my thoughts on that. >> Yeah. My I think that, and I've said >> Yeah. My I think that, and I've said >> Yeah. My I think that, and I've said this to you before, too, Judah, that this to you before, too, Judah, that this to you before, too, Judah, that most guys don't suffer from a moral most guys don't suffer from a moral most guys don't suffer from a moral failure, they suffer from a meaning failure, they suffer from a meaning failure, they suffer from a meaning failure. failure. failure. >> And they lose their why in ministry >> And they lose their why in ministry >> And they lose their why in ministry because of the things you were just because of the things you were just because of the things you were just talking about. And so, they minister talking about. And so, they minister talking about. And so, they minister with this functional, sometimes very with this functional, sometimes very with this functional, sometimes very high functioning emptiness inside. high functioning emptiness inside. high functioning emptiness inside. And that is just you're you're skating And that is just you're you're skating And that is just you're you're skating on the edge when you do that. It's it's on the edge when you do that. It's it's on the edge when you do that. It's it's a it's a dangerous place to be. But it's a it's a dangerous place to be. But it's a it's a dangerous place to be. But it's >> how do you lose your why? How does that >> how do you lose your why? How does that >> how do you lose your why? How does that happen? happen? happen? >> How do you lose your why? >> How do you lose your why? >> How do you lose your why? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> By by doing the very things that >> By by doing the very things that >> By by doing the very things that Judith's talking about. You you you Judith's talking about. You you you Judith's talking about. You you you realize that life is lived on a pedestal realize that life is lived on a pedestal realize that life is lived on a pedestal and I got to I got to keep this and I got to I got to keep this and I got to I got to keep this performance up and make sure the performance up and make sure the performance up and make sure the lighting is good because boy, I got a lighting is good because boy, I got a lighting is good because boy, I got a sermon today. And it it just becomes sermon today. And it it just becomes sermon today. And it it just becomes this this kind of ego this this kind of ego this this kind of ego centric centric centric um you know continual treadmill of um you know continual treadmill of um you know continual treadmill of feeding that u to where you feel that feeding that u to where you feel that feeding that u to where you feel that kind of pressure that Judah just kind of pressure that Judah just kind of pressure that Judah just described and your your why is gone. You described and your your why is gone. You described and your your why is gone. You know I think it was isn't it something know I think it was isn't it something know I think it was isn't it something like 70% of pastors read the Bible only

like 70% of pastors read the Bible only like 70% of pastors read the Bible only to preach it? to preach it? to preach it? >> Like >> Like >> Like >> I've heard stats like that. It's higher >> I've heard stats like that. It's higher >> I've heard stats like that. It's higher than that. than that. than that. >> We just don't feed our soul. You know >> We just don't feed our soul. You know >> We just don't feed our soul. You know what I mean? In leadership because you what I mean? In leadership because you what I mean? In leadership because you are I mean Judah, come on. That's an are I mean Judah, come on. That's an are I mean Judah, come on. That's an extreme example. Did you say 11 extreme example. Did you say 11 extreme example. Did you say 11 preaching events in a week? Um, you preaching events in a week? Um, you preaching events in a week? Um, you know, that's just that's a suicide know, that's just that's a suicide know, that's just that's a suicide mission, right? Um, and so you're you're mission, right? Um, and so you're you're mission, right? Um, and so you're you're you're you're you're you know, most of us don't do it at that you know, most of us don't do it at that you know, most of us don't do it at that level that Judah was talking about, but level that Judah was talking about, but level that Judah was talking about, but we still have this treadmill to do that. we still have this treadmill to do that. we still have this treadmill to do that. And so that's where our why goes out the And so that's where our why goes out the And so that's where our why goes out the window. It's just like performance, window. It's just like performance, window. It's just like performance, performance, performance. performance, performance. performance, performance. >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Academy. So as you are Art of Leadership Academy. So as you are Art of Leadership Academy. So as you are listening to this episode, as you know, listening to this episode, as you know, listening to this episode, as you know, you have about 60,000 thoughts today. you have about 60,000 thoughts today. you have about 60,000 thoughts today. 80% of them are negative. No wonder so 80% of them are negative. No wonder so 80% of them are negative. No wonder so many leaders feel discouraged, stuck, many leaders feel discouraged, stuck, many leaders feel discouraged, stuck, and honestly just in need of and honestly just in need of and honestly just in need of encouragement. They feel alone. And encouragement. They feel alone. And encouragement. They feel alone. And that's one of the reasons I love the Art that's one of the reasons I love the Art that's one of the reasons I love the Art of Leadership Academy. It's an online of Leadership Academy. It's an online of Leadership Academy. It's an online community for pastors and leaders to community for pastors and leaders to community for pastors and leaders to grow together and to learn from peers grow together and to learn from peers grow together and to learn from peers and to go through leadership with each and to go through leadership with each and to go through leadership with each other, right? With leaders who are other, right? With leaders who are other, right? With leaders who are like-minded. When you join, you will get like-minded. When you join, you will get like-minded. When you join, you will get access to the show notes for this access to the show notes for this access to the show notes for this episode, including all the important episode, including all the important episode, including all the important links, the full transcript, my top links, the full transcript, my top links, the full transcript, my top insights, and the steps you can put into insights, and the steps you can put into insights, and the steps you can put into action right away. Plus, there's a action right away. Plus, there's a action right away. Plus, there's a thread where you can chat about each thread where you can chat about each thread where you can chat about each podcast episode with other listeners, podcast episode with other listeners, podcast episode with other listeners, and I really enjoy that one.

and I really enjoy that one. and I really enjoy that one. conversations are actually really good. conversations are actually really good. conversations are actually really good. So, it's totally free to join. No credit So, it's totally free to join. No credit So, it's totally free to join. No credit card required and it only takes a couple card required and it only takes a couple card required and it only takes a couple of minutes to get started. Just click of minutes to get started. Just click of minutes to get started. Just click the link in the description of this the link in the description of this the link in the description of this episode or go to the art of episode or go to the art of episode or go to the art of leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. So, if you're ready to stop leading So, if you're ready to stop leading So, if you're ready to stop leading alone and join a vibrant community of alone and join a vibrant community of alone and join a vibrant community of church leaders, we have over 12,000 now. church leaders, we have over 12,000 now. church leaders, we have over 12,000 now. I'd love to see you inside. Click the I'd love to see you inside. Click the I'd love to see you inside. Click the link in the description of this episode link in the description of this episode link in the description of this episode and you can join today if you're you and you can join today if you're you and you can join today if you're you know because I think I think what you're know because I think I think what you're know because I think I think what you're speaking into is real. Um but you know speaking into is real. Um but you know speaking into is real. Um but you know we do we drop six podcast episodes a we do we drop six podcast episodes a we do we drop six podcast episodes a month plus I travel and I speak and I month plus I travel and I speak and I month plus I travel and I speak and I write and I'm working on a book and for write and I'm working on a book and for write and I'm working on a book and for the most part it's enjoyable. I have the most part it's enjoyable. I have the most part it's enjoyable. I have days that are not enjoyable but most days that are not enjoyable but most days that are not enjoyable but most part it's pretty enjoyable. part it's pretty enjoyable. part it's pretty enjoyable. What is the key? Whether you have, you What is the key? Whether you have, you What is the key? Whether you have, you know, three sites or 30 sites or, you know, three sites or 30 sites or, you know, three sites or 30 sites or, you know, 11 messages or two services or know, 11 messages or two services or know, 11 messages or two services or whatever it is, we all in leadership end whatever it is, we all in leadership end whatever it is, we all in leadership end up and I'm I'm thinking about a a CEO up and I'm I'm thinking about a a CEO up and I'm I'm thinking about a a CEO friend right now who's not leading in friend right now who's not leading in friend right now who's not leading in the church at all, but I mean, the the church at all, but I mean, the the church at all, but I mean, the pressure he's under makes my job feel pressure he's under makes my job feel pressure he's under makes my job feel like a vacation compared to the like a vacation compared to the like a vacation compared to the treadmill that he's on. So if you I treadmill that he's on. So if you I treadmill that he's on. So if you I guess where I'm going with this question guess where I'm going with this question guess where I'm going with this question is we can probably all think of some is we can probably all think of some is we can probably all think of some leaders who are leading multiple leaders who are leading multiple leaders who are leading multiple services multiple campuses maybe not 11 services multiple campuses maybe not 11 services multiple campuses maybe not 11 but a few who seem to be bearing up well but a few who seem to be bearing up well but a few who seem to be bearing up well under the pressure and you've under the pressure and you've under the pressure and you've recalibrated your life Judah to bear up recalibrated your life Judah to bear up recalibrated your life Judah to bear up much better under the pressure. How do much better under the pressure. How do much better under the pressure. How do you do that without just going yeah I'm you do that without just going yeah I'm you do that without just going yeah I'm doing one service a month and just

doing one service a month and just doing one service a month and just phoning it in? like how how do you is phoning it in? like how how do you is phoning it in? like how how do you is there a way to keep up the impact in the there a way to keep up the impact in the there a way to keep up the impact in the scale but also not lose your soul scale but also not lose your soul scale but also not lose your soul >> and I think this is what I love like can >> and I think this is what I love like can >> and I think this is what I love like can I'll respond and I love the feeling that I'll respond and I love the feeling that I'll respond and I love the feeling that less is here because maybe this is why less is here because maybe this is why less is here because maybe this is why we make a good team because I'm going to we make a good team because I'm going to we make a good team because I'm going to share some feelings and some emotions share some feelings and some emotions share some feelings and some emotions and then some like uh not not biblical and then some like uh not not biblical and then some like uh not not biblical theological interpretation but some theological interpretation but some theological interpretation but some application that has been life to me and application that has been life to me and application that has been life to me and then what I love about less is his then what I love about less is his then what I love about less is his ability to go well actually research ability to go well actually research ability to go well actually research shows and we've learned kind of in our shows and we've learned kind of in our shows and we've learned kind of in our studies and and It's a great team and studies and and It's a great team and studies and and It's a great team and perhaps it's why I had the idea that perhaps it's why I had the idea that perhaps it's why I had the idea that maybe we could put a book together and maybe we could put a book together and maybe we could put a book together and it was a preacher and a shrink, you it was a preacher and a shrink, you it was a preacher and a shrink, you know, walking to your brain. But, um, I know, walking to your brain. But, um, I know, walking to your brain. But, um, I do enjoy that that that journey. And of do enjoy that that that journey. And of do enjoy that that that journey. And of course, we're both from Seattle, so course, we're both from Seattle, so course, we're both from Seattle, so we're wild and crazy because we're west we're wild and crazy because we're west we're wild and crazy because we're west coast for life, baby. But, um, you know, coast for life, baby. But, um, you know, coast for life, baby. But, um, you know, us West Coasters are crazy, man. us West Coasters are crazy, man. us West Coasters are crazy, man. >> Yeah. Yeah. We're crazy. Um, okay. So, >> Yeah. Yeah. We're crazy. Um, okay. So, >> Yeah. Yeah. We're crazy. Um, okay. So, here's what I noticed in my life. Um, here's what I noticed in my life. Um, here's what I noticed in my life. Um, there's this scripture in the Bible, and there's this scripture in the Bible, and there's this scripture in the Bible, and I'm just going to apply it. I'm not I'm just going to apply it. I'm not I'm just going to apply it. I'm not going to interpret it. The traditions of going to interpret it. The traditions of going to interpret it. The traditions of men make the story of God not effective men make the story of God not effective men make the story of God not effective anymore. It it the the Bible becomes anymore. It it the the Bible becomes anymore. It it the the Bible becomes elevator music. The New Testament elevator music. The New Testament elevator music. The New Testament becomes white noise. It becomes this becomes white noise. It becomes this becomes white noise. It becomes this rhetoric. It becomes this routine rhetoric. It becomes this routine rhetoric. It becomes this routine becomes lifeless. What is tradition?

becomes lifeless. What is tradition? becomes lifeless. What is tradition? What is tradition? Tradition is What is tradition? Tradition is What is tradition? Tradition is routines, routines, routines, delivery systems, programs, processes. delivery systems, programs, processes. delivery systems, programs, processes. None of which is inherently bad. But None of which is inherently bad. But None of which is inherently bad. But they become this mindless thing we do, they become this mindless thing we do, they become this mindless thing we do, this soulless activity that we do. And this soulless activity that we do. And this soulless activity that we do. And ultimately we justify it and quantify it ultimately we justify it and quantify it ultimately we justify it and quantify it with things like sacrifice. I'm doing with things like sacrifice. I'm doing with things like sacrifice. I'm doing this for the people. I'm laying down my this for the people. I'm laying down my this for the people. I'm laying down my life. It doesn't matter. Suddenly you life. It doesn't matter. Suddenly you life. It doesn't matter. Suddenly you you begin to develop this idea that like you begin to develop this idea that like you begin to develop this idea that like I know that I'm a starving baker. I know I know that I'm a starving baker. I know I know that I'm a starving baker. I know that I'm cooking up all these meals and that I'm cooking up all these meals and that I'm cooking up all these meals and I don't eat myself, but it's in the name I don't eat myself, but it's in the name I don't eat myself, but it's in the name of ministry, mission, mandate. I'm doing of ministry, mission, mandate. I'm doing of ministry, mission, mandate. I'm doing this. This is awesome. And I know right this. This is awesome. And I know right this. This is awesome. And I know right now listening to this podcast, there are now listening to this podcast, there are now listening to this podcast, there are dozens of men and women and you know I'm dozens of men and women and you know I'm dozens of men and women and you know I'm talking to you. You know exactly what talking to you. You know exactly what talking to you. You know exactly what this feels like. And it might be 11 this feels like. And it might be 11 this feels like. And it might be 11 sermons a week. It might be 11 sermons a sermons a week. It might be 11 sermons a sermons a week. It might be 11 sermons a year. But you can become a professional. year. But you can become a professional. year. But you can become a professional. You can give into the routine and the You can give into the routine and the You can give into the routine and the tradition. And what what gets lost in tradition. And what what gets lost in tradition. And what what gets lost in all of this? And here to me is the thing all of this? And here to me is the thing all of this? And here to me is the thing that you got to look out for. You are that you got to look out for. You are that you got to look out for. You are not curious anymore. You aren't curious not curious anymore. You aren't curious not curious anymore. You aren't curious anymore. You're not curious when you anymore. You're not curious when you anymore. You're not curious when you read your Bible. You're not asking read your Bible. You're not asking read your Bible. You're not asking yourself things like, "What would this yourself things like, "What would this yourself things like, "What would this mean? I wonder why Paul wrote that.

mean? I wonder why Paul wrote that. mean? I wonder why Paul wrote that. Who's receiving?" You know, the stuff Who's receiving?" You know, the stuff Who's receiving?" You know, the stuff that got us all into this work. I was that got us all into this work. I was that got us all into this work. I was curious as a kid. My my daughter last curious as a kid. My my daughter last curious as a kid. My my daughter last night on our front lawn, I'm sitting out night on our front lawn, I'm sitting out night on our front lawn, I'm sitting out there and and the crickets are cricketed there and and the crickets are cricketed there and and the crickets are cricketed and we're doing our thing. And I said, and we're doing our thing. And I said, and we're doing our thing. And I said, "Who do you want to most be like?" She "Who do you want to most be like?" She "Who do you want to most be like?" She goes, "I don't have anybody." I said, goes, "I don't have anybody." I said, goes, "I don't have anybody." I said, "You got to have somebody, baby. When I "You got to have somebody, baby. When I "You got to have somebody, baby. When I was 13, I wanted to be Bishop TD Jake." was 13, I wanted to be Bishop TD Jake." was 13, I wanted to be Bishop TD Jake." She said, "Why, Dad?" And I told her She said, "Why, Dad?" And I told her She said, "Why, Dad?" And I told her why. because I loved how he delivered why. because I loved how he delivered why. because I loved how he delivered the story and I loved how it affected the story and I loved how it affected the story and I loved how it affected culture and I loved his journey and I culture and I loved his journey and I culture and I loved his journey and I loved his story and I felt someday I loved his story and I felt someday I loved his story and I felt someday I could be an emotional deliverer of the could be an emotional deliverer of the could be an emotional deliverer of the gospel and people could weep and we gospel and people could weep and we gospel and people could weep and we could cry and I could hold people and we could cry and I could hold people and we could cry and I could hold people and we would have meetings and it would be would have meetings and it would be would have meetings and it would be amazing and I was so curious about amazing and I was so curious about amazing and I was so curious about helping people and reaching culture and helping people and reaching culture and helping people and reaching culture and so she came up with somebody but there's so she came up with somebody but there's so she came up with somebody but there's that that buzz there's that that thing that that buzz there's that that thing that that buzz there's that that thing that that that's like a twinge inside of that that that's like a twinge inside of that that that's like a twinge inside of you that's like oo I love this life oo you that's like oo I love this life oo you that's like oo I love this life oo I'm so curious of what could happen like I'm so curious of what could happen like I'm so curious of what could happen like people say like we like when you preach people say like we like when you preach people say like we like when you preach and when I'm really in a healthy state and when I'm really in a healthy state and when I'm really in a healthy state my response is so do I. I can't wait to my response is so do I. I can't wait to my response is so do I. I can't wait to hear what I'm going to say next. Like hear what I'm going to say next. Like hear what I'm going to say next. Like it's going to be so fun. Like this is it's going to be so fun. Like this is it's going to be so fun. Like this is going to be crazy. Um I lost that. I going to be crazy. Um I lost that. I going to be crazy. Um I lost that. I lost being curious about people. Here's lost being curious about people. Here's lost being curious about people. Here's the biggest thing. If you're going to be the biggest thing. If you're going to be the biggest thing. If you're going to be in the people business like we are, when in the people business like we are, when in the people business like we are, when you stop being curious about people, you stop being curious about people, you stop being curious about people, whatever you do, stop what you're doing whatever you do, stop what you're doing whatever you do, stop what you're doing and go get help by all means necessary and go get help by all means necessary and go get help by all means necessary and through the grace of God. Because if and through the grace of God. Because if and through the grace of God. Because if you stop being curious about people, you stop being curious about people, you stop being curious about people, it's so wild. Les said the follow-up it's so wild. Les said the follow-up it's so wild. Les said the follow-up question because man, if we are not the question because man, if we are not the question because man, if we are not the people that do the follow-up questions, people that do the follow-up questions, people that do the follow-up questions, who is like this is we're about to be who is like this is we're about to be who is like this is we're about to be the mission is people. The point is

the mission is people. The point is the mission is people. The point is people, the purpose is people, the prize people, the purpose is people, the prize people, the purpose is people, the prize is people. And I forgot it was about is people. And I forgot it was about is people. And I forgot it was about people. And I became a pro, Carrie. And people. And I became a pro, Carrie. And people. And I became a pro, Carrie. And I lost my curiosity. I wasn't curious I lost my curiosity. I wasn't curious I lost my curiosity. I wasn't curious about what could happen in the room. I about what could happen in the room. I about what could happen in the room. I wasn't curious about who was in the wasn't curious about who was in the wasn't curious about who was in the room. And I wasn't curious anymore about room. And I wasn't curious anymore about room. And I wasn't curious anymore about what the story of God was all about. And what the story of God was all about. And what the story of God was all about. And I started reading verses like I had read I started reading verses like I had read I started reading verses like I had read them before. I started listening to them before. I started listening to them before. I started listening to Bible stories like I'd heard it a dozen Bible stories like I'd heard it a dozen Bible stories like I'd heard it a dozen times. And I wasn't listening with fresh times. And I wasn't listening with fresh times. And I wasn't listening with fresh eyes and fresh ears. So if somebody out eyes and fresh ears. So if somebody out eyes and fresh ears. So if somebody out there right now says to themselves, there right now says to themselves, there right now says to themselves, "Okay, I think I'm in a traditional "Okay, I think I'm in a traditional "Okay, I think I'm in a traditional routine. I've lost my curiosity. How do routine. I've lost my curiosity. How do routine. I've lost my curiosity. How do I cultivate that curiosity?" Okay, I I cultivate that curiosity?" Okay, I I cultivate that curiosity?" Okay, I don't know if this is scientifically don't know if this is scientifically don't know if this is scientifically proven. Unless is about to tell us, but proven. Unless is about to tell us, but proven. Unless is about to tell us, but here's what I always do. I go reconnect. here's what I always do. I go reconnect. here's what I always do. I go reconnect. I go reconnect to the essence of it all. I go reconnect to the essence of it all. I go reconnect to the essence of it all. And here's what I mean. And here's what I mean. And here's what I mean. Yesterday, and I won't cry, I promise. Yesterday, and I won't cry, I promise. Yesterday, and I won't cry, I promise. Someone comes backstage after our once a Someone comes backstage after our once a Someone comes backstage after our once a month service in Belleview, and they month service in Belleview, and they month service in Belleview, and they said, "There's a family here who has a said, "There's a family here who has a said, "There's a family here who has a young boy who's got cancer, and they young boy who's got cancer, and they young boy who's got cancer, and they want you to pray for him." And I just want you to pray for him." And I just want you to pray for him." And I just want to be very clear, I was the one want to be very clear, I was the one want to be very clear, I was the one blessed. I was the one getting the gift, blessed. I was the one getting the gift, blessed. I was the one getting the gift, not this family. God was ministering to not this family. God was ministering to not this family. God was ministering to me. And I said, "Of course." I said, "Of me. And I said, "Of course." I said, "Of me. And I said, "Of course." I said, "Of course." We walk out to the lobby and course." We walk out to the lobby and course." We walk out to the lobby and here's this family that's been in our here's this family that's been in our here's this family that's been in our church for quite some time and their church for quite some time and their church for quite some time and their 11-year-old son's been facing terminal 11-year-old son's been facing terminal 11-year-old son's been facing terminal cancer since he was three.

cancer since he was three. cancer since he was three. He hugged me. His parents said, "You're He hugged me. His parents said, "You're He hugged me. His parents said, "You're his hero." And I almost felt, you know, his hero." And I almost felt, you know, his hero." And I almost felt, you know, how you feel humbled, but then sometimes how you feel humbled, but then sometimes how you feel humbled, but then sometimes you just feel humiliated. Like I felt you just feel humiliated. Like I felt you just feel humiliated. Like I felt humiliated by my own self-absorbed humiliated by my own self-absorbed humiliated by my own self-absorbed little bubble that I live in. And I'm little bubble that I live in. And I'm little bubble that I live in. And I'm holding this baby boy and I'm hugging holding this baby boy and I'm hugging holding this baby boy and I'm hugging his mom and dad and it's like, "Oh god." his mom and dad and it's like, "Oh god." his mom and dad and it's like, "Oh god." You know what's crazy, guys? That sweet You know what's crazy, guys? That sweet You know what's crazy, guys? That sweet family don't care about how many books family don't care about how many books family don't care about how many books less than I sell. They don't care about less than I sell. They don't care about less than I sell. They don't care about all the podcasts. They and I'm not all the podcasts. They and I'm not all the podcasts. They and I'm not saying any of that's wrong, but it's saying any of that's wrong, but it's saying any of that's wrong, but it's wild when you connect to why you got wild when you connect to why you got wild when you connect to why you got into this in the first place and you into this in the first place and you into this in the first place and you have those sacred holy moments where God have those sacred holy moments where God have those sacred holy moments where God kind of rips your heart open and he kind of rips your heart open and he kind of rips your heart open and he says, "Isn't this what you wanted?" Like says, "Isn't this what you wanted?" Like says, "Isn't this what you wanted?" Like to serve real people facing real stuff to serve real people facing real stuff to serve real people facing real stuff and not become a pro preacher who's and not become a pro preacher who's and not become a pro preacher who's trying to push Instagram hits and views trying to push Instagram hits and views trying to push Instagram hits and views and podcast numbers. And all I can say and podcast numbers. And all I can say and podcast numbers. And all I can say is I have gone out of my way at times is I have gone out of my way at times is I have gone out of my way at times and I out of my way. I mean it's my and I out of my way. I mean it's my and I out of my way. I mean it's my privilege and honor to go sit with privilege and honor to go sit with privilege and honor to go sit with somebody that doesn't know Jesus. I sat somebody that doesn't know Jesus. I sat somebody that doesn't know Jesus. I sat with my son's new college basketball with my son's new college basketball with my son's new college basketball teammates. You know, Carrie, I met him teammates. You know, Carrie, I met him teammates. You know, Carrie, I met him in the lobby of our church on Sunday and in the lobby of our church on Sunday and in the lobby of our church on Sunday and the first question these two young men the first question these two young men the first question these two young men asked me, they said, "What's your name?"

asked me, they said, "What's your name?" asked me, they said, "What's your name?" I said, "I'm Judah." That didn't I said, "I'm Judah." That didn't I said, "I'm Judah." That didn't resonate. I said, "I'm Elliot's dad." resonate. I said, "I'm Elliot's dad." resonate. I said, "I'm Elliot's dad." They said, "Oh yeah, what's up, man?" They said, "Oh yeah, what's up, man?" They said, "Oh yeah, what's up, man?" >> That's the best, isn't it? Do you know >> That's the best, isn't it? Do you know >> That's the best, isn't it? Do you know what I mean? It's like you reconnect what I mean? It's like you reconnect what I mean? It's like you reconnect again with real life people. Like again with real life people. Like again with real life people. Like there's real people out there who are there's real people out there who are there's real people out there who are just trying to live and make it through just trying to live and make it through just trying to live and make it through another day. And I think that's our another day. And I think that's our another day. And I think that's our cause and I think that's our mandate. So cause and I think that's our mandate. So cause and I think that's our mandate. So that was a whole sermon. That's what I that was a whole sermon. That's what I that was a whole sermon. That's what I do. Less please fix that. do. Less please fix that. do. Less please fix that. >> Well before before I go to you less, can >> Well before before I go to you less, can >> Well before before I go to you less, can I throw one more thing in the waters? I throw one more thing in the waters? I throw one more thing in the waters? So, I was at a business conference last So, I was at a business conference last So, I was at a business conference last year and uh it was a it was a tough year and uh it was a it was a tough year and uh it was a it was a tough week. I wasn't feeling 100%. week. I wasn't feeling 100%. week. I wasn't feeling 100%. And you know, my team was asking me, And you know, my team was asking me, And you know, my team was asking me, some of my team members were there, how some of my team members were there, how some of my team members were there, how how have you enjoyed this week? I said, how have you enjoyed this week? I said, how have you enjoyed this week? I said, well, it's not bad, but I said, you well, it's not bad, but I said, you well, it's not bad, but I said, you know, I was in the pool in the afternoon know, I was in the pool in the afternoon know, I was in the pool in the afternoon cuz we were off and there were a lot of cuz we were off and there were a lot of cuz we were off and there were a lot of other leaders there, but they were other leaders there, but they were other leaders there, but they were business leaders. And I said, nobody business leaders. And I said, nobody business leaders. And I said, nobody really came up and asked me any really came up and asked me any really came up and asked me any questions or anything. And my son who questions or anything. And my son who questions or anything. And my son who was with me looked at me and he goes, was with me looked at me and he goes, was with me looked at me and he goes, "Welcome to the rest of humanity."

"Welcome to the rest of humanity." "Welcome to the rest of humanity." He says, "Of course people don't know He says, "Of course people don't know He says, "Of course people don't know your name." Like, if you're me, you got your name." Like, if you're me, you got your name." Like, if you're me, you got to go do the work. And I was in such a to go do the work. And I was in such a to go do the work. And I was in such a bubble where I'm just in most of the bubble where I'm just in most of the bubble where I'm just in most of the rooms I show up, people know who I am. I rooms I show up, people know who I am. I rooms I show up, people know who I am. I always introduce myself, but I don't always introduce myself, but I don't always introduce myself, but I don't need to. And they always have a million need to. And they always have a million need to. And they always have a million questions. Then I was in a place where questions. Then I was in a place where questions. Then I was in a place where nobody knew who I was, and I was nobody knew who I was, and I was nobody knew who I was, and I was supposed to interact. And it was just it supposed to interact. And it was just it supposed to interact. And it was just it was so embarrassing and stupifying and was so embarrassing and stupifying and was so embarrassing and stupifying and grounding and real, but like we get in grounding and real, but like we get in grounding and real, but like we get in our heads, right? Like we get in our our heads, right? Like we get in our our heads, right? Like we get in our heads. So comment on on all of that heads. So comment on on all of that heads. So comment on on all of that lesson and fix us. Well, I love that lesson and fix us. Well, I love that lesson and fix us. Well, I love that Judah that you camped out on curiosity. Judah that you camped out on curiosity. Judah that you camped out on curiosity. Curiosity is what connects us. Um, and Curiosity is what connects us. Um, and Curiosity is what connects us. Um, and my our oldest sons and we have two boys my our oldest sons and we have two boys my our oldest sons and we have two boys and one boy is um in graduate school and one boy is um in graduate school and one boy is um in graduate school outside of Los Angeles and he is outside of Los Angeles and he is outside of Los Angeles and he is studying curiosity. He's getting a PhD studying curiosity. He's getting a PhD studying curiosity. He's getting a PhD in positive psychology, which is in positive psychology, which is in positive psychology, which is basically a PhD in the fruit of the basically a PhD in the fruit of the basically a PhD in the fruit of the spirit. Uh, it's it's what goes right spirit. Uh, it's it's what goes right spirit. Uh, it's it's what goes right with people. I'm a clinical with people. I'm a clinical with people. I'm a clinical psychologist. We study what goes wrong psychologist. We study what goes wrong psychologist. We study what goes wrong with people. Positive psychology studies with people. Positive psychology studies with people. Positive psychology studies what goes right with people. And so he's what goes right with people. And so he's what goes right with people. And so he's his he's he's doing his dissertation on his he's he's doing his dissertation on his he's he's doing his dissertation on curiosity. So I hear more about curiosity. So I hear more about curiosity. So I hear more about curiosity curiosity curiosity than the average bear because of that.

than the average bear because of that. than the average bear because of that. And u I joked with John, my son John a And u I joked with John, my son John a And u I joked with John, my son John a little while ago and I said, "Man, I little while ago and I said, "Man, I little while ago and I said, "Man, I need to call you whenever I'm I can't need to call you whenever I'm I can't need to call you whenever I'm I can't quite fall asleep because if I can get quite fall asleep because if I can get quite fall asleep because if I can get you talking about curiosity, I will zone you talking about curiosity, I will zone you talking about curiosity, I will zone out so fast." He is so deep into it. But out so fast." He is so deep into it. But out so fast." He is so deep into it. But one of the things I've learned from him one of the things I've learned from him one of the things I've learned from him is that curiosity is the on-ramp to is that curiosity is the on-ramp to is that curiosity is the on-ramp to empathy and empathy changes everything. empathy and empathy changes everything. empathy and empathy changes everything. And Judah, you just gave a perfect And Judah, you just gave a perfect And Judah, you just gave a perfect example of that with that family example of that with that family example of that with that family backstage. Um, by being able to see the backstage. Um, by being able to see the backstage. Um, by being able to see the world from their perspective because you world from their perspective because you world from their perspective because you were cur curious. You can't get there. were cur curious. You can't get there. were cur curious. You can't get there. You can't get to curiosity. I mean, you You can't get to curiosity. I mean, you You can't get to curiosity. I mean, you can't get to empathy without curiosity. can't get to empathy without curiosity. can't get to empathy without curiosity. And empathy is of course that capacity And empathy is of course that capacity And empathy is of course that capacity to see the world from somebody else's to see the world from somebody else's to see the world from somebody else's perspective, but it's not I I always perspective, but it's not I I always perspective, but it's not I I always tell my counseling students, huge tell my counseling students, huge tell my counseling students, huge difference between sympathy and empathy. difference between sympathy and empathy. difference between sympathy and empathy. And every pastor is really good at And every pastor is really good at And every pastor is really good at sympathy, right? Sympathy is throwing sympathy, right? Sympathy is throwing sympathy, right? Sympathy is throwing out a a life ring to somebody that's out a a life ring to somebody that's out a a life ring to somebody that's struggling in the water. And everybody struggling in the water. And everybody struggling in the water. And everybody in ministry does that because that's in ministry does that because that's in ministry does that because that's what we're supposed to do and it's easy, what we're supposed to do and it's easy, what we're supposed to do and it's easy, right? Empathy much more challenging.

right? Empathy much more challenging. right? Empathy much more challenging. That's diving into the water, risking That's diving into the water, risking That's diving into the water, risking your own well-being to bring that person your own well-being to bring that person your own well-being to bring that person back to shore. And not everybody does back to shore. And not everybody does back to shore. And not everybody does that. In fact, it's so rare. What do we that. In fact, it's so rare. What do we that. In fact, it's so rare. What do we call those people? Heroes, right? And call those people? Heroes, right? And call those people? Heroes, right? And it's just as heroic when we do that in it's just as heroic when we do that in it's just as heroic when we do that in leadership, as a pastor, as a parent, as leadership, as a pastor, as a parent, as leadership, as a pastor, as a parent, as a spouse, as a friend. It's just one of a spouse, as a friend. It's just one of a spouse, as a friend. It's just one of those things that goes against the grain those things that goes against the grain those things that goes against the grain of human nature to enter that person's of human nature to enter that person's of human nature to enter that person's world to accurately understand it. But world to accurately understand it. But world to accurately understand it. But you can't get to it without curiosity. you can't get to it without curiosity. you can't get to it without curiosity. So, I loved hearing that story, Judah. So, I loved hearing that story, Judah. So, I loved hearing that story, Judah. That's that's incredible. That's that's incredible. That's that's incredible. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> super helpful. Well, let's dive into the >> super helpful. Well, let's dive into the >> super helpful. Well, let's dive into the book a little bit. Bad thoughts. First book a little bit. Bad thoughts. First book a little bit. Bad thoughts. First of all, love the title. Could have been of all, love the title. Could have been of all, love the title. Could have been way more complicated, just like bad way more complicated, just like bad way more complicated, just like bad thoughts. We all have them. thoughts. We all have them. thoughts. We all have them. Uh Uh Uh what was the moment you each realized what was the moment you each realized what was the moment you each realized that you had to take seriously that you had to take seriously that you had to take seriously the stuff that goes on in your head? the stuff that goes on in your head? the stuff that goes on in your head? Because I think sometimes there can be a Because I think sometimes there can be a Because I think sometimes there can be a divide between, you know, well, this is divide between, you know, well, this is divide between, you know, well, this is what I think, but it's not really what I think, but it's not really what I think, but it's not really showing up in the rest of my life. But, showing up in the rest of my life. But, showing up in the rest of my life. But, you know, bad thoughts are something I you know, bad thoughts are something I you know, bad thoughts are something I think we all struggle with. What was think we all struggle with. What was think we all struggle with. What was that moment for you where you realized that moment for you where you realized that moment for you where you realized we we got to we got to take some action we we got to we got to take some action we we got to we got to take some action around this?

Well, I I was going to say the reason we Well, I I was going to say the reason we focused on this is because in our work focused on this is because in our work focused on this is because in our work together as a preacher in a shrink um is together as a preacher in a shrink um is together as a preacher in a shrink um is that we just when when Judas said, "Hey, that we just when when Judas said, "Hey, that we just when when Judas said, "Hey, would you ever, you know, we we've done would you ever, you know, we we've done would you ever, you know, we we've done some work for a number of years and he some work for a number of years and he some work for a number of years and he said, I I'd like to put some of this in said, I I'd like to put some of this in said, I I'd like to put some of this in a book. People need to kind of a book. People need to kind of a book. People need to kind of experience this with us." And I said, experience this with us." And I said, experience this with us." And I said, "That means pulling back the curtain, "That means pulling back the curtain, "That means pulling back the curtain, Judith. That means like being Judith. That means like being Judith. That means like being vulnerable, authentic with what's going vulnerable, authentic with what's going vulnerable, authentic with what's going on in your life. are you sure you want on in your life. are you sure you want on in your life. are you sure you want to do that? And he said, "Yeah, have you to do that? And he said, "Yeah, have you to do that? And he said, "Yeah, have you listened to one of my sermons yet?" You listened to one of my sermons yet?" You listened to one of my sermons yet?" You know, um that's what I And so, um and so know, um that's what I And so, um and so know, um that's what I And so, um and so it just made sense to kind of put this it just made sense to kind of put this it just made sense to kind of put this together in a way that had a hook that together in a way that had a hook that together in a way that had a hook that was most relevant. And that hook that was most relevant. And that hook that was most relevant. And that hook that the kind of the theme that we saw the kind of the theme that we saw the kind of the theme that we saw running through our work together was running through our work together was running through our work together was that you are what you think. And so much that you are what you think. And so much that you are what you think. And so much of what happens in our life is the of what happens in our life is the of what happens in our life is the result of not how we feel, not what just result of not how we feel, not what just result of not how we feel, not what just happened, but how we think about what happened, but how we think about what happened, but how we think about what just happened because that's where the just happened because that's where the just happened because that's where the feelings come from. They're the caboose feelings come from. They're the caboose feelings come from. They're the caboose that follows the thoughts. And so, uh, that follows the thoughts. And so, uh, that follows the thoughts. And so, uh, that's what got us to this place. And, that's what got us to this place. And, that's what got us to this place. And, and Judah, I'll let you speak more to and Judah, I'll let you speak more to and Judah, I'll let you speak more to it, but that is I I I will say this, and it, but that is I I I will say this, and it, but that is I I I will say this, and and Judah knows this because he's heard and Judah knows this because he's heard and Judah knows this because he's heard me say it a million times. The Cleveland me say it a million times. The Cleveland me say it a million times. The Cleveland Clinic did this massive study on how Clinic did this massive study on how Clinic did this massive study on how many thoughts we have on average in a many thoughts we have on average in a many thoughts we have on average in a day. 60,000 thoughts per day the average day. 60,000 thoughts per day the average day. 60,000 thoughts per day the average individual has. And in fact, before individual has. And in fact, before individual has. And in fact, before before I even tell you how they

before I even tell you how they before I even tell you how they categorize the thoughts, let me do a categorize the thoughts, let me do a categorize the thoughts, let me do a little thought exercise with both of you little thought exercise with both of you little thought exercise with both of you and all of our listeners. If you could and all of our listeners. If you could and all of our listeners. If you could take a little computer chip out of the take a little computer chip out of the take a little computer chip out of the back of your head and slip it into your back of your head and slip it into your back of your head and slip it into your laptop before you fall asleep tonight laptop before you fall asleep tonight laptop before you fall asleep tonight and it would tabulate your internal and it would tabulate your internal and it would tabulate your internal dialogue, your thought life into either dialogue, your thought life into either dialogue, your thought life into either positive thoughts or negative thoughts, positive thoughts or negative thoughts, positive thoughts or negative thoughts, which side of the scale would be which side of the scale would be which side of the scale would be heaviest, heaviest, heaviest, positive thoughts or negative thoughts? positive thoughts or negative thoughts? positive thoughts or negative thoughts? Either of you want to answer that. Either of you want to answer that. Either of you want to answer that. Here's what we know. Here's what we know. Here's what we know. >> Not publicly. >> Not publicly. >> Not publicly. Yeah, I understand. None of us would. Yeah, I understand. None of us would. Yeah, I understand. None of us would. But the Cleveland Clinic found that 80% But the Cleveland Clinic found that 80% But the Cleveland Clinic found that 80% on average for the average person, 80% on average for the average person, 80% on average for the average person, 80% of our thoughts are negative. of our thoughts are negative. of our thoughts are negative. >> Isn't that crazy? >> Isn't that crazy? >> Isn't that crazy? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. N 80% of our thoughts are bad thoughts. N 80% of our thoughts are bad thoughts. N 80% of our thoughts are bad thoughts. And when your mind gets hijacked And when your mind gets hijacked And when your mind gets hijacked with bad thoughts, it impacts your soul. with bad thoughts, it impacts your soul. with bad thoughts, it impacts your soul. It impacts your relationships. It It impacts your relationships. It It impacts your relationships. It impacts your ministry. It impacts impacts your ministry. It impacts impacts your ministry. It impacts everything. The stakes couldn't be everything. The stakes couldn't be everything. The stakes couldn't be higher. And so anyway, that that that's higher. And so anyway, that that that's higher. And so anyway, that that that's what really got Judah and me to go, what really got Judah and me to go, what really got Judah and me to go, let's somehow figure out how to put the let's somehow figure out how to put the let's somehow figure out how to put the cookies on the bottom shelf, make this cookies on the bottom shelf, make this cookies on the bottom shelf, make this accessible. And by the way, Carrie, one accessible. And by the way, Carrie, one accessible. And by the way, Carrie, one of the things that we've done in this of the things that we've done in this of the things that we've done in this book, as you know, is every chapter has book, as you know, is every chapter has book, as you know, is every chapter has this little self test because we're not this little self test because we're not this little self test because we're not just interested in staying on a platform just interested in staying on a platform just interested in staying on a platform and preaching to you about it. We want and preaching to you about it. We want and preaching to you about it. We want to make sure this is relevant to your

to make sure this is relevant to your to make sure this is relevant to your life. So we hold up a mirror, allow you life. So we hold up a mirror, allow you life. So we hold up a mirror, allow you to enter into one of the, you know, of to enter into one of the, you know, of to enter into one of the, you know, of these five toxic thoughts. How relevant these five toxic thoughts. How relevant these five toxic thoughts. How relevant is it to your life? And uh but but that is it to your life? And uh but but that is it to your life? And uh but but that that was the the genesis of the whole that was the the genesis of the whole that was the the genesis of the whole thing. Is that the way you remember it thing. Is that the way you remember it thing. Is that the way you remember it too, Judah? too, Judah? too, Judah? >> Every word actually, even the uh >> Every word actually, even the uh >> Every word actually, even the uh Cleveland study. Yeah, that's that's Cleveland study. Yeah, that's that's Cleveland study. Yeah, that's that's everything I was going to say to a te. Okay. Okay. >> Uh, no, but this was the dream. I mean, >> Uh, no, but this was the dream. I mean, >> Uh, no, but this was the dream. I mean, Carrie, this was literally the dream. Carrie, this was literally the dream. Carrie, this was literally the dream. And it is a dream to be on your podcast And it is a dream to be on your podcast And it is a dream to be on your podcast and I hope, you know, I was going to I and I hope, you know, I was going to I and I hope, you know, I was going to I was going to make that dumb statement. was going to make that dumb statement. was going to make that dumb statement. You know how much I love you, but it's You know how much I love you, but it's You know how much I love you, but it's like, does anyone actually know, you like, does anyone actually know, you like, does anyone actually know, you know, but I do I love you and Tony so know, but I do I love you and Tony so know, but I do I love you and Tony so much and admire you and I'm so grateful much and admire you and I'm so grateful much and admire you and I'm so grateful to be your friend and so grateful that to be your friend and so grateful that to be your friend and so grateful that you continue to trust God even through you continue to trust God even through you continue to trust God even through all the the chapters and iterations and all the the chapters and iterations and all the the chapters and iterations and seasons and even some of the challenges seasons and even some of the challenges seasons and even some of the challenges you're facing right now. you you you're facing right now. you you you're facing right now. you you continue to be that person in my life continue to be that person in my life continue to be that person in my life that uh is a constant source of hey that uh is a constant source of hey that uh is a constant source of hey let's keep going. Let's trust God. Let's let's keep going. Let's trust God. Let's let's keep going. Let's trust God. Let's let's be who he's called us to be. Um let's be who he's called us to be. Um let's be who he's called us to be. Um and so I I I thank you for that. This and so I I I thank you for that. This and so I I I thank you for that. This was the dream though to like to partner was the dream though to like to partner was the dream though to like to partner with Les. Um and in my line of work, you with Les. Um and in my line of work, you with Les. Um and in my line of work, you know, I I I've worked with a lot of emo know, I I I've worked with a lot of emo know, I I I've worked with a lot of emo preachers and presenters and preachers and presenters and preachers and presenters and communicators and it's all awesome and I communicators and it's all awesome and I communicators and it's all awesome and I love them and that's who I am. Uh but love them and that's who I am. Uh but love them and that's who I am. Uh but man, I needed uh you know, an incredible man, I needed uh you know, an incredible man, I needed uh you know, an incredible gift uh like Les Parrot who could say, gift uh like Les Parrot who could say, gift uh like Les Parrot who could say, "Hey, hey, but yeah, but guys, this "Hey, hey, but yeah, but guys, this "Hey, hey, but yeah, but guys, this actually this actually lines up with all actually this actually lines up with all actually this actually lines up with all the research and all the data and all

the research and all the data and all the research and all the data and all the science and all the study says this the science and all the study says this the science and all the study says this is what happens." Um I I'll say this. I is what happens." Um I I'll say this. I is what happens." Um I I'll say this. I I'll tell you one little story that I'll tell you one little story that I'll tell you one little story that indicates how profoundly thought life indicates how profoundly thought life indicates how profoundly thought life had affected uh my decorum and my had affected uh my decorum and my had affected uh my decorum and my behavior and my action. I'm sitting in behavior and my action. I'm sitting in behavior and my action. I'm sitting in Les's office with Chelsea Les's office with Chelsea Les's office with Chelsea And I' I've told this story uh before, And I' I've told this story uh before, And I' I've told this story uh before, but it it's so indicative because it's but it it's so indicative because it's but it it's so indicative because it's also like some of you have been thinking also like some of you have been thinking also like some of you have been thinking thoughts for so long that you don't even thoughts for so long that you don't even thoughts for so long that you don't even you're not even cognizant of anymore, you're not even cognizant of anymore, you're not even cognizant of anymore, but it is affecting your approach to big but it is affecting your approach to big but it is affecting your approach to big things in the case my approach to things in the case my approach to things in the case my approach to attractive beautiful women. Now, if you attractive beautiful women. Now, if you attractive beautiful women. Now, if you would have caught me 10 years ago, 15 would have caught me 10 years ago, 15 would have caught me 10 years ago, 15 years ago, and said, "Hey, you have a years ago, and said, "Hey, you have a years ago, and said, "Hey, you have a problem with attractive women." I'd be problem with attractive women." I'd be problem with attractive women." I'd be like, "Well, no, I I I don't. I actually like, "Well, no, I I I don't. I actually like, "Well, no, I I I don't. I actually I'm committed to my wife. I'm not, you I'm committed to my wife. I'm not, you I'm committed to my wife. I'm not, you know. No, no, no, no. You have a problem know. No, no, no, no. You have a problem know. No, no, no, no. You have a problem with attractive women. I would be like, with attractive women. I would be like, with attractive women. I would be like, what are you? No, I I by the grace of what are you? No, I I by the grace of what are you? No, I I by the grace of God, I don't. Like, I'm attracted to God, I don't. Like, I'm attracted to God, I don't. Like, I'm attracted to women, you know, don't get me wrong, but women, you know, don't get me wrong, but women, you know, don't get me wrong, but like, no, I don't. There was a point we like, no, I don't. There was a point we like, no, I don't. There was a point we were in deep discussion. I don't know were in deep discussion. I don't know were in deep discussion. I don't know how we got there, so for sake of time, how we got there, so for sake of time, how we got there, so for sake of time, I'll just jump right to it. But Les says I'll just jump right to it. But Les says I'll just jump right to it. But Les says to me in front of Leslie and Chelsea, to me in front of Leslie and Chelsea, to me in front of Leslie and Chelsea, Judah, when you see a beautiful woman, Judah, when you see a beautiful woman, Judah, when you see a beautiful woman, what what either goes through your mind what what either goes through your mind what what either goes through your mind and what do you experience? And in real and what do you experience? And in real and what do you experience? And in real time, Carrie, I dropped my head.

time, Carrie, I dropped my head. time, Carrie, I dropped my head. Unbeknownst to me, I dropped my head and Unbeknownst to me, I dropped my head and Unbeknownst to me, I dropped my head and went like this. went like this. went like this. And Les goes, "Hold on a second. Look And Les goes, "Hold on a second. Look And Les goes, "Hold on a second. Look what Look what just happened. I what Look what just happened. I what Look what just happened. I literally said attractive woman." And literally said attractive woman." And literally said attractive woman." And your head just dropped telling me that your head just dropped telling me that your head just dropped telling me that around that idea of dealing with uh around that idea of dealing with uh around that idea of dealing with uh temptation or beauty or sexiness, you temptation or beauty or sexiness, you temptation or beauty or sexiness, you have shame. have shame. have shame. And he literally then asked, which is so And he literally then asked, which is so And he literally then asked, which is so humiliating, he said, "Do you believe humiliating, he said, "Do you believe humiliating, he said, "Do you believe that acknowledging a beautiful woman is that acknowledging a beautiful woman is that acknowledging a beautiful woman is a sin?" a sin?" a sin?" And I was quiet as if to say, "I think And I was quiet as if to say, "I think And I was quiet as if to say, "I think so." I think I think that so." I think I think that so." I think I think that >> even notic >> even though if someone asked me, I would >> even though if someone asked me, I would have never said yes to that. And it was have never said yes to that. And it was have never said yes to that. And it was like there was a thought pattern in my like there was a thought pattern in my like there was a thought pattern in my life that had carried over probably life that had carried over probably life that had carried over probably because of some shrapnel and some trauma because of some shrapnel and some trauma because of some shrapnel and some trauma and some drama that even the and some drama that even the and some drama that even the acknowledging acknowledging acknowledging of like I don't mean that my brain of like I don't mean that my brain of like I don't mean that my brain doesn't go wow that woman's beautiful of doesn't go wow that woman's beautiful of doesn't go wow that woman's beautiful of course but like acknowledging last course but like acknowledging last course but like acknowledging last literally said you know acknowledging literally said you know acknowledging literally said you know acknowledging that someone is beautiful is not a sin that someone is beautiful is not a sin that someone is beautiful is not a sin and I know that s might sound trit and and I know that s might sound trit and and I know that s might sound trit and simple and judah what's the big idea simple and judah what's the big idea simple and judah what's the big idea it's that we have developed thought it's that we have developed thought it's that we have developed thought patterns I think we say bad thoughts and patterns I think we say bad thoughts and patterns I think we say bad thoughts and a lot of people go. I don't think I have a lot of people go. I don't think I have a lot of people go. I don't think I have bad thoughts. And what I think they're bad thoughts. And what I think they're bad thoughts. And what I think they're saying is I actually have a thoughtless saying is I actually have a thoughtless saying is I actually have a thoughtless thought life. I don't even think about thought life. I don't even think about thought life. I don't even think about what I'm thinking. I don't even think what I'm thinking. I don't even think what I'm thinking. I don't even think about what I'm thinking. And by the way, about what I'm thinking. And by the way, about what I'm thinking. And by the way, here I had developed a pattern of shame,

here I had developed a pattern of shame, here I had developed a pattern of shame, but I hadn't even thought about what I but I hadn't even thought about what I but I hadn't even thought about what I was thinking about when I came across a was thinking about when I came across a was thinking about when I came across a beautiful woman. But obviously, I was beautiful woman. But obviously, I was beautiful woman. But obviously, I was trying to look away, but there was shame trying to look away, but there was shame trying to look away, but there was shame connected to something as simple and connected to something as simple and connected to something as simple and everyday as that. And it was less that everyday as that. And it was less that everyday as that. And it was less that helped me uncover that. And so we go helped me uncover that. And so we go helped me uncover that. And so we go through, we talk about shame in the through, we talk about shame in the through, we talk about shame in the book. We talked about entitlement in the book. We talked about entitlement in the book. We talked about entitlement in the book. We talked about getting off your book. We talked about getting off your book. We talked about getting off your high horse in the book. And uh frankly, high horse in the book. And uh frankly, high horse in the book. And uh frankly, all of these are my bad thoughts. And all of these are my bad thoughts. And all of these are my bad thoughts. And this is how less fix them. And the next this is how less fix them. And the next this is how less fix them. And the next book we're going to do is how I fix less book we're going to do is how I fix less book we're going to do is how I fix less parrot. I'm very excited about that. parrot. I'm very excited about that. parrot. I'm very excited about that. >> I can't wait for that book and I hope >> I can't wait for that book and I hope >> I can't wait for that book and I hope you're you're the one that's going to you're you're the one that's going to you're you're the one that's going to write it for us. So that'll be awesome. write it for us. So that'll be awesome. write it for us. So that'll be awesome. >> So what is a what is a healthier >> So what is a what is a healthier >> So what is a what is a healthier framing? Because I think that's a really framing? Because I think that's a really framing? Because I think that's a really good thing. Do you notice attractive good thing. Do you notice attractive good thing. Do you notice attractive women or what response you have to women or what response you have to women or what response you have to attractive women? What is a healthier attractive women? What is a healthier attractive women? What is a healthier response to that less? response to that less? response to that less? >> Well, I'll tell you what less told me >> Well, I'll tell you what less told me >> Well, I'll tell you what less told me cuz it changed my life and that is we cuz it changed my life and that is we cuz it changed my life and that is we Chelsea and I in our marriage now we'll Chelsea and I in our marriage now we'll Chelsea and I in our marriage now we'll actually verbalize it. actually verbalize it. actually verbalize it. >> Particularly if it's something that's a >> Particularly if it's something that's a >> Particularly if it's something that's a prevalent to us like wow she is prevalent to us like wow she is prevalent to us like wow she is beautiful and Chelsea will be like she beautiful and Chelsea will be like she beautiful and Chelsea will be like she really is or wow he is so handsome. I really is or wow he is so handsome. I really is or wow he is so handsome. I last night we were watching a show and last night we were watching a show and last night we were watching a show and we hated like one of the main characters we hated like one of the main characters we hated like one of the main characters who was a male and I said, "But he is who was a male and I said, "But he is who was a male and I said, "But he is handsome, isn't he?" And Chelsea's like, handsome, isn't he?" And Chelsea's like, handsome, isn't he?" And Chelsea's like, "Yeah, he's handsome." And we just "Yeah, he's handsome." And we just "Yeah, he's handsome." And we just chuckle and it's become such a healthy chuckle and it's become such a healthy chuckle and it's become such a healthy front street kind of approach. Les, I front street kind of approach. Les, I front street kind of approach. Les, I don't know if that's what you told me to don't know if that's what you told me to don't know if that's what you told me to do, but I think it is. And that's what do, but I think it is. And that's what do, but I think it is. And that's what we've been doing.

we've been doing. we've been doing. >> That's that's exactly right. Because >> That's that's exactly right. Because >> That's that's exactly right. Because we're always afraid to name something, we're always afraid to name something, we're always afraid to name something, but when we name it, it loses control. but when we name it, it loses control. but when we name it, it loses control. >> It's control over us, right? It we're >> It's control over us, right? It we're >> It's control over us, right? It we're putting a spotlight on it. It's no putting a spotlight on it. It's no putting a spotlight on it. It's no longer in the shadows. And so by naming longer in the shadows. And so by naming longer in the shadows. And so by naming it, we're going, "Hey, no, there's it, we're going, "Hey, no, there's it, we're going, "Hey, no, there's nothing private here. There's nothing nothing private here. There's nothing nothing private here. There's nothing secretive that I'm harboring about secretive that I'm harboring about secretive that I'm harboring about whatever this thing is. It doesn't have whatever this thing is. It doesn't have whatever this thing is. It doesn't have to just be attractive people. It's to just be attractive people. It's to just be attractive people. It's whatever it is. It could be sports. It whatever it is. It could be sports. It whatever it is. It could be sports. It could be whatever it is, but naming it. could be whatever it is, but naming it. could be whatever it is, but naming it. Remember when I talked about how I see Remember when I talked about how I see Remember when I talked about how I see one of the frequent flyer issues of of one of the frequent flyer issues of of one of the frequent flyer issues of of being a lack of emotional muscle?" And being a lack of emotional muscle?" And being a lack of emotional muscle?" And that's what I'm getting at is it's a that's what I'm getting at is it's a that's what I'm getting at is it's a lack of even awareness sometimes like lack of even awareness sometimes like lack of even awareness sometimes like Judah I love your story and the Judah I love your story and the Judah I love your story and the vulnerability of that and authenticity vulnerability of that and authenticity vulnerability of that and authenticity of that Judah but what Judah was not of that Judah but what Judah was not of that Judah but what Judah was not even aware of it and he's I'm sure even aware of it and he's I'm sure even aware of it and he's I'm sure you're so tired of me saying this Judah you're so tired of me saying this Judah you're so tired of me saying this Judah but because I say it so frequently to but because I say it so frequently to but because I say it so frequently to everybody in in a therapeutic setting everybody in in a therapeutic setting everybody in in a therapeutic setting but awareness is curative. Awareness is but awareness is curative. Awareness is but awareness is curative. Awareness is curative. You can't do something about curative. You can't do something about curative. You can't do something about it until you become aware of it. and we it until you become aware of it. and we it until you become aware of it. and we just tend to not uh want to acknowledge just tend to not uh want to acknowledge just tend to not uh want to acknowledge it. We don't name it and therefore we it. We don't name it and therefore we it. We don't name it and therefore we don't have to do anything about it.

don't have to do anything about it. don't have to do anything about it. >> I would love to know you outline five >> I would love to know you outline five >> I would love to know you outline five bad thoughts or main ways of thinking in bad thoughts or main ways of thinking in bad thoughts or main ways of thinking in the book and I took the assessment and the book and I took the assessment and the book and I took the assessment and got nailed on a couple. Is one of you got nailed on a couple. Is one of you got nailed on a couple. Is one of you comfortable outlining the five primary comfortable outlining the five primary comfortable outlining the five primary ways you sort of our bad thoughts unfold ways you sort of our bad thoughts unfold ways you sort of our bad thoughts unfold and then maybe explain a little bit of and then maybe explain a little bit of and then maybe explain a little bit of each of them because I think most of us each of them because I think most of us each of them because I think most of us are going to get owned in one of these are going to get owned in one of these are going to get owned in one of these >> or jump into this. Judah, it wasn't just >> or jump into this. Judah, it wasn't just >> or jump into this. Judah, it wasn't just like, hey, I loved how Judy you said a like, hey, I loved how Judy you said a like, hey, I loved how Judy you said a moment ago, hey, this is a book about my moment ago, hey, this is a book about my moment ago, hey, this is a book about my five bad thoughts. Um, and like it's a five bad thoughts. Um, and like it's a five bad thoughts. Um, and like it's a biography or something. Um, it's biography or something. Um, it's biography or something. Um, it's everybody's biography. You know what I everybody's biography. You know what I everybody's biography. You know what I mean? This is not just one guy's story mean? This is not just one guy's story mean? This is not just one guy's story and in fact what we did and we we talked and in fact what we did and we we talked and in fact what we did and we we talked about this in the introduction. We about this in the introduction. We about this in the introduction. We surveyed a bunch of people uh to find surveyed a bunch of people uh to find surveyed a bunch of people uh to find out uh these are the five toxic out uh these are the five toxic out uh these are the five toxic thoughts. We started with a longer list thoughts. We started with a longer list thoughts. We started with a longer list than five uh but got it down to these than five uh but got it down to these than five uh but got it down to these five that are so salient that are so five that are so salient that are so five that are so salient that are so common. And the first one the first common. And the first one the first common. And the first one the first chapter is take your last guilt trip.

chapter is take your last guilt trip. chapter is take your last guilt trip. It's all about guilt and discovering It's all about guilt and discovering It's all about guilt and discovering grace. And uh guilt is, you know, grace. And uh guilt is, you know, grace. And uh guilt is, you know, there's there's we're so good at guilt there's there's we're so good at guilt there's there's we're so good at guilt in the church, you know, we just it's in the church, you know, we just it's in the church, you know, we just it's almost like that's just one of the fruit almost like that's just one of the fruit almost like that's just one of the fruit of the spirit, right? Guilty. And um of the spirit, right? Guilty. And um of the spirit, right? Guilty. And um it's such a a a self-centered emotion. it's such a a a self-centered emotion. it's such a a a self-centered emotion. Um when when we're experiencing guilt, Um when when we're experiencing guilt, Um when when we're experiencing guilt, it's like having a toothache and we can it's like having a toothache and we can it's like having a toothache and we can pretend we're interested in somebody pretend we're interested in somebody pretend we're interested in somebody else or something else, but the whole else or something else, but the whole else or something else, but the whole time we're just thinking, "Oh my time we're just thinking, "Oh my time we're just thinking, "Oh my goodness, how do I get rid of this goodness, how do I get rid of this goodness, how do I get rid of this toothache?" Guilt is the same kind of toothache?" Guilt is the same kind of toothache?" Guilt is the same kind of pain. It's just it clouds our capacity pain. It's just it clouds our capacity pain. It's just it clouds our capacity to see. We talked about empathy. You You to see. We talked about empathy. You You to see. We talked about empathy. You You can't empathize with somebody else if can't empathize with somebody else if can't empathize with somebody else if you're carrying around a backpack filled you're carrying around a backpack filled you're carrying around a backpack filled with guilt because you're consumed with with guilt because you're consumed with with guilt because you're consumed with yourself. yourself. yourself. >> All right. It's so So that's the first >> All right. It's so So that's the first >> All right. It's so So that's the first one. I Carrie, we can talk about each one. I Carrie, we can talk about each one. I Carrie, we can talk about each one of these, but that's the first one. one of these, but that's the first one. one of these, but that's the first one. Right. Right. Right. >> All right. Second one. >> All right. Second one. >> All right. Second one. >> Judy, you want to go for the second one? >> Judy, you want to go for the second one? >> Judy, you want to go for the second one? >> No, you outline all five of them. Come >> No, you outline all five of them. Come >> No, you outline all five of them. Come on. the doctor and then I'll jump in.

on. the doctor and then I'll jump in. on. the doctor and then I'll jump in. Come on, man. Come on, man. Come on, man. >> The second one is the disease to please. >> The second one is the disease to please. >> The second one is the disease to please. >> Please. That's my problem. >> Please. That's my problem. >> Please. That's my problem. >> This is a big one for you, Judo, wasn't >> This is a big one for you, Judo, wasn't >> This is a big one for you, Judo, wasn't it? it? it? >> I'm telling you, Les is being nice. This >> I'm telling you, Les is being nice. This >> I'm telling you, Les is being nice. This is all of my problems out for everybody. is all of my problems out for everybody. is all of my problems out for everybody. This is me and my shrink saying, "I'm a This is me and my shrink saying, "I'm a This is me and my shrink saying, "I'm a nightmare. Somebody come help me." Oh, nightmare. Somebody come help me." Oh, nightmare. Somebody come help me." Oh, wait. Less is uh Yeah. I thought wait. Less is uh Yeah. I thought wait. Less is uh Yeah. I thought pleasing people was um a calling. I pleasing people was um a calling. I pleasing people was um a calling. I thought it was like synonymous with thought it was like synonymous with thought it was like synonymous with mission. I thought it was like you are mission. I thought it was like you are mission. I thought it was like you are called by God to please everyone. That called by God to please everyone. That called by God to please everyone. That is what being a pastor is. Um and it is what being a pastor is. Um and it is what being a pastor is. Um and it became so ingrained in my thought became so ingrained in my thought became so ingrained in my thought patterns, in my lifestyle, it became patterns, in my lifestyle, it became patterns, in my lifestyle, it became incredibly toxic and destructive. And by incredibly toxic and destructive. And by incredibly toxic and destructive. And by the grace of God, I avoided, you know, the grace of God, I avoided, you know, the grace of God, I avoided, you know, decisions that would ruin everything. decisions that would ruin everything. decisions that would ruin everything. But um I was addicted to pleasing. Uh I But um I was addicted to pleasing. Uh I But um I was addicted to pleasing. Uh I needed to be needed. Um and my needed to be needed. Um and my needed to be needed. Um and my personality is I want to win with personality is I want to win with personality is I want to win with everybody. And when I don't win with everybody. And when I don't win with everybody. And when I don't win with somebody, I get so myopic and obsessive somebody, I get so myopic and obsessive somebody, I get so myopic and obsessive about it. It could be like someone about it. It could be like someone about it. It could be like someone literally driving by on the freeway that literally driving by on the freeway that literally driving by on the freeway that I wave at and they don't wave back. I'm I wave at and they don't wave back. I'm I wave at and they don't wave back. I'm like, "Hey, what? Come on. What's the like, "Hey, what? Come on. What's the like, "Hey, what? Come on. What's the deal?" I mean, it's so symptomatic of deal?" I mean, it's so symptomatic of deal?" I mean, it's so symptomatic of someone who's got a big problem.

someone who's got a big problem. someone who's got a big problem. >> We spent a lot of time in our work >> We spent a lot of time in our work >> We spent a lot of time in our work together uh helping Judah to formulate a together uh helping Judah to formulate a together uh helping Judah to formulate a single word that's very difficult for single word that's very difficult for single word that's very difficult for him to say. It's two letters. Do you him to say. It's two letters. Do you him to say. It's two letters. Do you remember what the word is, Judah? starts remember what the word is, Judah? starts remember what the word is, Judah? starts with an N and it ends with an O. Uh come with an N and it ends with an O. Uh come with an N and it ends with an O. Uh come on, you can say it. on, you can say it. on, you can say it. >> Is it on? >> Is it on? >> Is it on? >> If you're dyslexic. >> If you're dyslexic. >> If you're dyslexic. >> Dyslexic. Yeah, a little bit. A little >> Dyslexic. Yeah, a little bit. A little >> Dyslexic. Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. bit. bit. >> I'm on. Yeah. Um but uh it it really is >> I'm on. Yeah. Um but uh it it really is >> I'm on. Yeah. Um but uh it it really is the disease to please is is uh it kind the disease to please is is uh it kind the disease to please is is uh it kind of goes part and parcel for a lot of of goes part and parcel for a lot of of goes part and parcel for a lot of folks in leadership ministry because folks in leadership ministry because folks in leadership ministry because that's what we feel. You know, we're that's what we feel. You know, we're that's what we feel. You know, we're people pleasers. We we want to help people pleasers. We we want to help people pleasers. We we want to help people. And it kind of bleeds into that. people. And it kind of bleeds into that. people. And it kind of bleeds into that. Here's the problem with people pleasing. Here's the problem with people pleasing. Here's the problem with people pleasing. It creates um a veneer of relationships It creates um a veneer of relationships It creates um a veneer of relationships that are only an inch deep. And you that are only an inch deep. And you that are only an inch deep. And you cannot go deep with someone uh when cannot go deep with someone uh when cannot go deep with someone uh when you're trying to please them. Uh because you're trying to please them. Uh because you're trying to please them. Uh because what you really want is for them to like what you really want is for them to like what you really want is for them to like you. That's what fuels the disease to you. That's what fuels the disease to you. That's what fuels the disease to please. Please like me. And if you want please. Please like me. And if you want please. Please like me. And if you want someone to like you, you never show your someone to like you, you never show your someone to like you, you never show your dark side. You never show your shadow dark side. You never show your shadow dark side. You never show your shadow self. And therefore all they're liking self. And therefore all they're liking self. And therefore all they're liking is whatever it is you've managed to is whatever it is you've managed to is whatever it is you've managed to present. We all we often call it present. We all we often call it present. We all we often call it impression management. And so if you're impression management. And so if you're impression management. And so if you're if that's all you're putting out to the if that's all you're putting out to the if that's all you're putting out to the world, you never really feel secure in world, you never really feel secure in world, you never really feel secure in being known and loved and accepted being known and loved and accepted being known and loved and accepted because no one really knows you. They because no one really knows you. They because no one really knows you. They just know that presentation of you, the just know that presentation of you, the just know that presentation of you, the mask that you wear. And so anyway, mask that you wear. And so anyway, mask that you wear. And so anyway, that's the disease to please.

that's the disease to please. that's the disease to please. >> Okay. Okay, I want I want to get through >> Okay. Okay, I want I want to get through >> Okay. Okay, I want I want to get through them because I want people to hear and them because I want people to hear and them because I want people to hear and see themselves in the story. I see themselves in the story. I see themselves in the story. I definitely saw myself in the story. I'll definitely saw myself in the story. I'll definitely saw myself in the story. I'll tell you when. Okay, number three. tell you when. Okay, number three. tell you when. Okay, number three. >> Number three is what we call extinguish >> Number three is what we call extinguish >> Number three is what we call extinguish self-doubt and rekindle your courage. self-doubt and rekindle your courage. self-doubt and rekindle your courage. Now, that's a close cousin to the Now, that's a close cousin to the Now, that's a close cousin to the disease to please, but it is distinct, disease to please, but it is distinct, disease to please, but it is distinct, right? uh self-doubt uh because um you right? uh self-doubt uh because um you right? uh self-doubt uh because um you know when we don't stand there there's know when we don't stand there there's know when we don't stand there there's there's this thing in psychology we ter there's this thing in psychology we ter there's this thing in psychology we ter we we term the u internal locus of we we term the u internal locus of we we term the u internal locus of control versus external locus of control versus external locus of control versus external locus of control. control. control. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And when we're when our life is run by >> And when we're when our life is run by >> And when we're when our life is run by external things you you know it's external things you you know it's external things you you know it's controlled by the outside. It's it's controlled by the outside. It's it's controlled by the outside. It's it's whatever you set my agenda to be. Um whatever you set my agenda to be. Um whatever you set my agenda to be. Um we're we're not standing on truth right. we're we're not standing on truth right. we're we're not standing on truth right. we're just floating. We're just uh and we're just floating. We're just uh and we're just floating. We're just uh and and so when you have the courage to be and so when you have the courage to be and so when you have the courage to be who you are, that gets back to who you are, that gets back to who you are, that gets back to congruence, right? To be able to uh not congruence, right? To be able to uh not congruence, right? To be able to uh not just present something that you think just present something that you think just present something that you think people would like, but to actually people would like, but to actually people would like, but to actually present the real you and be congruent present the real you and be congruent present the real you and be congruent with that and and show it in a in a in a with that and and show it in a in a in a with that and and show it in a in a in a way that also illustrates redemption, by way that also illustrates redemption, by way that also illustrates redemption, by the way, because that's where that's the way, because that's where that's the way, because that's where that's found. But that that's the what we're found. But that that's the what we're found. But that that's the what we're talking about when we talk about this talking about when we talk about this talking about when we talk about this extinguishing yourself doubt. Um Judah, extinguishing yourself doubt. Um Judah, extinguishing yourself doubt. Um Judah, you want to amplify on any of that?

you want to amplify on any of that? you want to amplify on any of that? >> Yeah. I mean, there's so much, you know, >> Yeah. I mean, there's so much, you know, >> Yeah. I mean, there's so much, you know, I have so many personal stories and so I have so many personal stories and so I have so many personal stories and so many moments where this was just many moments where this was just many moments where this was just surfacing in my life and I'm just uh surfacing in my life and I'm just uh surfacing in my life and I'm just uh I'll I'll spare us the details and the I'll I'll spare us the details and the I'll I'll spare us the details and the time, but can I just say like I I I time, but can I just say like I I I time, but can I just say like I I I really am excited. Um, I've read this really am excited. Um, I've read this really am excited. Um, I've read this book multiple times, gone over it, and I book multiple times, gone over it, and I book multiple times, gone over it, and I just feel uh like uh I lived this book, just feel uh like uh I lived this book, just feel uh like uh I lived this book, unfortunately. And I'm like, wait, this unfortunately. And I'm like, wait, this unfortunately. And I'm like, wait, this is not original. Let me interrupt you is not original. Let me interrupt you is not original. Let me interrupt you for a second, Judah. You know that for a second, Judah. You know that for a second, Judah. You know that saying about writers that uh writing is saying about writers that uh writing is saying about writers that uh writing is simple. You just sit in front of your simple. You just sit in front of your simple. You just sit in front of your your keyboard and bleed. And uh I did your keyboard and bleed. And uh I did your keyboard and bleed. And uh I did most of the bleeding on this book. most of the bleeding on this book. most of the bleeding on this book. >> You did not. I did all the hemorrhaging >> You did not. I did all the hemorrhaging >> You did not. I did all the hemorrhaging and you just used the blood to write the and you just used the blood to write the and you just used the blood to write the words. words. words. I was going to say you came in with a I was going to say you came in with a I was going to say you came in with a transfusion every once in a while, but transfusion every once in a while, but transfusion every once in a while, but uh uh uh >> it's my blood you used. Okay. >> it's my blood you used. Okay. >> it's my blood you used. Okay. >> Well, you did in the margins, Judah. >> Well, you did in the margins, Judah. >> Well, you did in the margins, Judah. Your art is amazing. Your art is amazing. Your art is amazing. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That was my major contribution. >> That was my major contribution. >> That was my major contribution. >> If you if you if you read the book, you >> If you if you if you read the book, you >> If you if you if you read the book, you will see exactly what I mean. It's quite will see exactly what I mean. It's quite will see exactly what I mean. It's quite quite amusing. I've never seen that quite amusing. I've never seen that quite amusing. I've never seen that before.

before. before. >> We joke about it and I I had that idea >> We joke about it and I I had that idea >> We joke about it and I I had that idea and I I presented it to Judah. I said, and I I presented it to Judah. I said, and I I presented it to Judah. I said, and it's kind of carry in this book. It and it's kind of carry in this book. It and it's kind of carry in this book. It really is true that Judah brings the really is true that Judah brings the really is true that Judah brings the sermon and I bring the science. And so sermon and I bring the science. And so sermon and I bring the science. And so when we did this, I didn't want it to when we did this, I didn't want it to when we did this, I didn't want it to feel like this, you know, heavy uh book. feel like this, you know, heavy uh book. feel like this, you know, heavy uh book. It's not. It's super accessible, but It's not. It's super accessible, but It's not. It's super accessible, but >> but I said, Judah, I know people would >> but I said, Judah, I know people would >> but I said, Judah, I know people would love just to hear your internal love just to hear your internal love just to hear your internal commentary on some of this stuff. Why commentary on some of this stuff. Why commentary on some of this stuff. Why don't you just do, you know, he doodles don't you just do, you know, he doodles don't you just do, you know, he doodles a lot and he's an incredible artist. I a lot and he's an incredible artist. I a lot and he's an incredible artist. I said, just put some of that in the said, just put some of that in the said, just put some of that in the margins of this book. Let's see if margins of this book. Let's see if margins of this book. Let's see if Harper Collins will make the margins Harper Collins will make the margins Harper Collins will make the margins bigger for you. And we bigger for you. And we bigger for you. And we >> And they did. It's pretty cool. >> And they did. It's pretty cool. >> And they did. It's pretty cool. >> They did. And I'm telling you, we had >> They did. And I'm telling you, we had >> They did. And I'm telling you, we had some lively sessions late at night, well some lively sessions late at night, well some lively sessions late at night, well past midnight, uh, as we were working past midnight, uh, as we were working past midnight, uh, as we were working all that through, but all that through, but all that through, but >> Well, four and five got me. And I know >> Well, four and five got me. And I know >> Well, four and five got me. And I know we're we're going to wrap soon, but four we're we're going to wrap soon, but four we're we're going to wrap soon, but four and five really got me. So, what are and five really got me. So, what are and five really got me. So, what are four and five? I was upset that they got four and five? I was upset that they got four and five? I was upset that they got me, by the way.

me, by the way. me, by the way. Number four is step off your high horse Number four is step off your high horse Number four is step off your high horse and walk in another's shoes. We're and walk in another's shoes. We're and walk in another's shoes. We're getting back to getting back to getting back to >> and we're out of time. >> and we're out of time. >> and we're out of time. >> Okay, >> Okay, >> Okay, >> this is all about entitlement. And this >> this is all about entitlement. And this >> this is all about entitlement. And this was the chapter we didn't know whether was the chapter we didn't know whether was the chapter we didn't know whether we should include or not because the we should include or not because the we should include or not because the people that need this chapter are not people that need this chapter are not people that need this chapter are not likely to read this chapter. Do you know likely to read this chapter. Do you know likely to read this chapter. Do you know what I mean? We all have blind spots and what I mean? We all have blind spots and what I mean? We all have blind spots and people that feel entitled. And so it had people that feel entitled. And so it had people that feel entitled. And so it had to begin with us. It had to begin with to begin with us. It had to begin with to begin with us. It had to begin with Judah and with me. Um, and I I'll be the Judah and with me. Um, and I I'll be the Judah and with me. Um, and I I'll be the first to admit I feel like the most first to admit I feel like the most first to admit I feel like the most entitled person in the world sometimes, entitled person in the world sometimes, entitled person in the world sometimes, especially when I'm traveling. especially when I'm traveling. especially when I'm traveling. >> How does that show up, Les? Cuz I I >> How does that show up, Les? Cuz I I >> How does that show up, Les? Cuz I I would say if you ask me, is Carrie would say if you ask me, is Carrie would say if you ask me, is Carrie entitled? Most people would say no. But entitled? Most people would say no. But entitled? Most people would say no. But my wife would say, "Oh, 100% yes. my wife would say, "Oh, 100% yes. my wife would say, "Oh, 100% yes. Absolutely." Absolutely." Absolutely." >> Yeah. That's our knee-jerk reaction is, >> Yeah. That's our knee-jerk reaction is, >> Yeah. That's our knee-jerk reaction is, "Oh, no. I'm not entitled. That's other "Oh, no. I'm not entitled. That's other "Oh, no. I'm not entitled. That's other people that struggle with that." people that struggle with that." people that struggle with that." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> U just get on an airplane with me. Um, I >> U just get on an airplane with me. Um, I >> U just get on an airplane with me. Um, I want to make sure I'm at the front of want to make sure I'm at the front of want to make sure I'm at the front of the line. I need to make sure I get in the line. I need to make sure I get in the line. I need to make sure I get in that seat. Man, I've traveled a million that seat. Man, I've traveled a million that seat. Man, I've traveled a million miles on this airlines. I deserve some miles on this airlines. I deserve some miles on this airlines. I deserve some special attention here. You know what I special attention here. You know what I special attention here. You know what I mean? So, here's what I do. When I get mean? So, here's what I do. When I get mean? So, here's what I do. When I get on an airplane these days, I am so on an airplane these days, I am so on an airplane these days, I am so conscientious of other travel. Now, I conscientious of other travel. Now, I conscientious of other travel. Now, I still jockey for my position because I still jockey for my position because I still jockey for my position because I earn that and I get on the airplane, but earn that and I get on the airplane, but earn that and I get on the airplane, but when I'm on there, I'm so conscientious when I'm on there, I'm so conscientious when I'm on there, I'm so conscientious of other travelers and I will always of other travelers and I will always of other travelers and I will always help somebody put up their bag or help somebody put up their bag or help somebody put up their bag or whatever. And I have to do that for my whatever. And I have to do that for my whatever. And I have to do that for my own spiritual discipline really to step own spiritual discipline really to step own spiritual discipline really to step out of my entitled mindset. So, that's a

out of my entitled mindset. So, that's a out of my entitled mindset. So, that's a really tiny example, Carrie, but that's really tiny example, Carrie, but that's really tiny example, Carrie, but that's at the level that we live, right? And at the level that we live, right? And at the level that we live, right? And so, so we all have that to some degree so, so we all have that to some degree so, so we all have that to some degree or another. or another. or another. Dude, any comment on that? Uh, Dude, any comment on that? Uh, Dude, any comment on that? Uh, >> I feel entitled to people's >> I feel entitled to people's >> I feel entitled to people's reciprocation to my kindness. I want reciprocation to my kindness. I want reciprocation to my kindness. I want people to ask for forgiveness. I want people to ask for forgiveness. I want people to ask for forgiveness. I want people to apologize. I want people to people to apologize. I want people to people to apologize. I want people to own their stuff because I feel like I own their stuff because I feel like I own their stuff because I feel like I do. And I'm not entitled to any of it. do. And I'm not entitled to any of it. do. And I'm not entitled to any of it. And I have noticed that trend in my And I have noticed that trend in my And I have noticed that trend in my life. There's a lot of recent stories life. There's a lot of recent stories life. There's a lot of recent stories that'll tell you that. And I just feel that'll tell you that. And I just feel that'll tell you that. And I just feel like, hey, I, you know, like I'll often like, hey, I, you know, like I'll often like, hey, I, you know, like I'll often be the guy that'll be like, hey, will be the guy that'll be like, hey, will be the guy that'll be like, hey, will you forgive me for and then guess what? you forgive me for and then guess what? you forgive me for and then guess what? I feel entitled to their moment. I feel entitled to their moment. I feel entitled to their moment. >> Yes, I do. I forgive you. And if that >> Yes, I do. I forgive you. And if that >> Yes, I do. I forgive you. And if that doesn't come, doesn't come, doesn't come, >> Got it. >> Got it. >> Got it. >> And I'm I'm all worked up about it. >> And I'm I'm all worked up about it. >> And I'm I'm all worked up about it. >> Let me let me just brag on my friend >> Let me let me just brag on my friend >> Let me let me just brag on my friend Judah for a quick second because this is Judah for a quick second because this is Judah for a quick second because this is a fresh story and I'm going to shorten a fresh story and I'm going to shorten a fresh story and I'm going to shorten it and it's your story to tell Judah, it and it's your story to tell Judah, it and it's your story to tell Judah, but uh th this this is such a great but uh th this this is such a great but uh th this this is such a great example of that. Judah was in his car example of that. Judah was in his car example of that. Judah was in his car with his family and there was some news with his family and there was some news with his family and there was some news about somebody that kind of came around about somebody that kind of came around about somebody that kind of came around to to to kind of find Jesus in a new way to to to kind of find Jesus in a new way to to to kind of find Jesus in a new way and they were celebrating that and and they were celebrating that and and they were celebrating that and Judah's attitude was like yeah but the Judah's attitude was like yeah but the Judah's attitude was like yeah but the guy never did apologize and so it kind guy never did apologize and so it kind guy never did apologize and so it kind of brought the the whole car down and of brought the the whole car down and of brought the the whole car down and I'm zipping through this story Judah for I'm zipping through this story Judah for I'm zipping through this story Judah for interest of time but Judah what did he interest of time but Judah what did he interest of time but Judah what did he do he became aware of what just happened do he became aware of what just happened do he became aware of what just happened awareness is curative right he became awareness is curative right he became awareness is curative right he became became aware of what just happened and became aware of what just happened and became aware of what just happened and he said, "You know what?

he said, "You know what? he said, "You know what? That is not something I deserve." He That is not something I deserve." He That is not something I deserve." He will, you know, apologize if and when he will, you know, apologize if and when he will, you know, apologize if and when he ever wants to. But he recognized that ever wants to. But he recognized that ever wants to. But he recognized that that entitlement like a pickpocket came that entitlement like a pickpocket came that entitlement like a pickpocket came along and just slipped joy right out of along and just slipped joy right out of along and just slipped joy right out of his pocket. Slipped it right out of that his pocket. Slipped it right out of that his pocket. Slipped it right out of that car. Slipped it right out of that family car. Slipped it right out of that family car. Slipped it right out of that family >> and instead acknowledged it and flipped >> and instead acknowledged it and flipped >> and instead acknowledged it and flipped it around. And J, it around. And J, it around. And J, >> does steal joy. You're so right. It >> does steal joy. You're so right. It >> does steal joy. You're so right. It >> does. >> does. >> does. >> Yeah, it really does. >> Yeah, it really does. >> Yeah, it really does. >> Wow. Okay, we got to hit number five and >> Wow. Okay, we got to hit number five and >> Wow. Okay, we got to hit number five and then uh then uh then uh >> All right, this is a big one and I think >> All right, this is a big one and I think >> All right, this is a big one and I think it's big for every Christian leader. it's big for every Christian leader. it's big for every Christian leader. Truly, we preach it, but do we Truly, we preach it, but do we Truly, we preach it, but do we internalize it? Do you feel it deep down internalize it? Do you feel it deep down internalize it? Do you feel it deep down in your bones? It's this. Quit earning in your bones? It's this. Quit earning in your bones? It's this. Quit earning credit with God and receive his gift of credit with God and receive his gift of credit with God and receive his gift of love. Okay. So, something like 50% of love. Okay. So, something like 50% of love. Okay. So, something like 50% of the respondents to your poll said they the respondents to your poll said they the respondents to your poll said they never struggled with it and then never struggled with it and then never struggled with it and then 20% or whatever was occasional. And I 20% or whatever was occasional. And I 20% or whatever was occasional. And I was that minority that's like, "No, I am was that minority that's like, "No, I am was that minority that's like, "No, I am still earning my salvation. I promise still earning my salvation. I promise still earning my salvation. I promise you I am." you I am." you I am." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Working it out, man. I don't believe >> Working it out, man. I don't believe >> Working it out, man. I don't believe that. But, that. But, that. But, >> right. >> right. >> right. >> It's it's akin to that kid. I remember >> It's it's akin to that kid. I remember >> It's it's akin to that kid. I remember being in Chicago once and speaking at being in Chicago once and speaking at being in Chicago once and speaking at some conference in this hotel and I was some conference in this hotel and I was some conference in this hotel and I was just went away to get regroup for the just went away to get regroup for the just went away to get regroup for the next presentation. I was sitting in this next presentation. I was sitting in this next presentation. I was sitting in this little cafe and I could see through a little cafe and I could see through a little cafe and I could see through a glass partition to the swimming pool and glass partition to the swimming pool and glass partition to the swimming pool and I saw a scene that's been repeated I saw a scene that's been repeated I saw a scene that's been repeated countless times. You've both seen it. countless times. You've both seen it. countless times. You've both seen it. You've probably both lived it where the You've probably both lived it where the You've probably both lived it where the dad was on a business trip. He's sitting dad was on a business trip. He's sitting dad was on a business trip. He's sitting over there fully clothed in his suit or over there fully clothed in his suit or over there fully clothed in his suit or whatever and he's looking at a paper or whatever and he's looking at a paper or whatever and he's looking at a paper or reading a magazine or a book. And his reading a magazine or a book. And his reading a magazine or a book. And his little boy that's with dad on a business little boy that's with dad on a business little boy that's with dad on a business trip is over on the edge of the pool and trip is over on the edge of the pool and trip is over on the edge of the pool and he's looking at dad and do you know what he's looking at dad and do you know what he's looking at dad and do you know what he's saying? he's saying? he's saying? >> Daddy, daddy, watch me. Watch me. Watch >> Daddy, daddy, watch me. Watch me. Watch >> Daddy, daddy, watch me. Watch me. Watch me. The father pulls down the book. The me. The father pulls down the book. The me. The father pulls down the book. The kid jumps in the pool. Oh, that's great, kid jumps in the pool. Oh, that's great, kid jumps in the pool. Oh, that's great, son. Good jump. Way to go. Right back to son. Good jump. Way to go. Right back to son. Good jump. Way to go. Right back to reading the book. What's the kid do? reading the book. What's the kid do? reading the book. What's the kid do? Gets back out of the pool, goes the Gets back out of the pool, goes the Gets back out of the pool, goes the exact same place, looks at his dad. What exact same place, looks at his dad. What exact same place, looks at his dad. What does he say? Daddy, daddy, watch me. does he say? Daddy, daddy, watch me. does he say? Daddy, daddy, watch me. Watch me. We do the same thing in a Watch me. We do the same thing in a Watch me. We do the same thing in a relationship with God over and over.

relationship with God over and over. relationship with God over and over. Even though intellectually we know we Even though intellectually we know we Even though intellectually we know we don't need to do this because I just don't need to do this because I just don't need to do this because I just preached a sermon last Sunday on grace, preached a sermon last Sunday on grace, preached a sermon last Sunday on grace, but we still are trying to figure out but we still are trying to figure out but we still are trying to figure out how do I earn my worth with God? Judah, how do I earn my worth with God? Judah, how do I earn my worth with God? Judah, have you ever felt that way? have you ever felt that way? have you ever felt that way? >> No, but thanks for bringing that up. I I >> No, but thanks for bringing that up. I I >> No, but thanks for bringing that up. I I you know, never never struggled with you know, never never struggled with you know, never never struggled with that at all. Pastors aren't allowed to limp, you Pastors aren't allowed to limp, you know, so they keep it all. know, so they keep it all. know, so they keep it all. >> That's right. That's right. >> That's right. That's right. >> That's right. That's right. >> But that that is that's a that's a quiet >> But that that is that's a that's a quiet >> But that that is that's a that's a quiet struggle for a lot of pastors. Well, we struggle for a lot of pastors. Well, we struggle for a lot of pastors. Well, we live in a cause and effect world and so live in a cause and effect world and so live in a cause and effect world and so it's so easy to make God a high school it's so easy to make God a high school it's so easy to make God a high school football coach, you know, who will play football coach, you know, who will play football coach, you know, who will play us if we practice hard us if we practice hard us if we practice hard >> and and make the blocks and make the >> and and make the blocks and make the >> and and make the blocks and make the passes and don't fumble. And so we super passes and don't fumble. And so we super passes and don't fumble. And so we super off the team. off the team. off the team. >> That's it. >> That's it. >> That's it. >> Fumble too many times and you're gone. >> Fumble too many times and you're gone. >> Fumble too many times and you're gone. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No, it was something I was starting to >> No, it was something I was starting to >> No, it was something I was starting to work on in my own personal spiritual work on in my own personal spiritual work on in my own personal spiritual life in my devotions and then, you know, life in my devotions and then, you know, life in my devotions and then, you know, I was picked up the book to prep for I was picked up the book to prep for I was picked up the book to prep for this interview and I'm like, "Oh, stop this interview and I'm like, "Oh, stop this interview and I'm like, "Oh, stop reading my mail." Like this. It's such a reading my mail." Like this. It's such a reading my mail." Like this. It's such a gift. It really is.

gift. It really is. gift. It really is. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> You know what, Judah? You got to get >> You know what, Judah? You got to get >> You know what, Judah? You got to get your house remodeled or something and your house remodeled or something and your house remodeled or something and then get off to a special destination then get off to a special destination then get off to a special destination with Chelsea. But guys, we could have with Chelsea. But guys, we could have with Chelsea. But guys, we could have talked about this for like 5 hours. This talked about this for like 5 hours. This talked about this for like 5 hours. This was awesome. And I guess the was awesome. And I guess the was awesome. And I guess the conversation is to be continued uh as conversation is to be continued uh as conversation is to be continued uh as people pick up your book. It's It's a people pick up your book. It's It's a people pick up your book. It's It's a really complicated title. Bad thoughts. really complicated title. Bad thoughts. really complicated title. Bad thoughts. Love it. Love it. It it is a sincerely Love it. Love it. It it is a sincerely Love it. Love it. It it is a sincerely and if you've read I was saying to you and if you've read I was saying to you and if you've read I was saying to you guys before if you read Winning the War guys before if you read Winning the War guys before if you read Winning the War in your mind or Max Leo's uh taming your in your mind or Max Leo's uh taming your in your mind or Max Leo's uh taming your thoughts those are both excellent books thoughts those are both excellent books thoughts those are both excellent books but this is a fresh take and if most of but this is a fresh take and if most of but this is a fresh take and if most of us have 60,000 thoughts a day and 80% of us have 60,000 thoughts a day and 80% of us have 60,000 thoughts a day and 80% of them are negative probably worth another them are negative probably worth another them are negative probably worth another take at this and it's a beautiful blend. take at this and it's a beautiful blend. take at this and it's a beautiful blend. You guys wrote really well together and You guys wrote really well together and You guys wrote really well together and in another universe I would ask you how in another universe I would ask you how in another universe I would ask you how did you do it because it is both fun, did you do it because it is both fun, did you do it because it is both fun, enjoyable, interesting and researched enjoyable, interesting and researched enjoyable, interesting and researched which is a rare combination but I think which is a rare combination but I think which is a rare combination but I think you probably picked up on the dynamics you probably picked up on the dynamics you probably picked up on the dynamics in this conversation over the last hour in this conversation over the last hour in this conversation over the last hour and a bit. So anyway, highly recommend and a bit. So anyway, highly recommend and a bit. So anyway, highly recommend the book. Think you should get it.

the book. Think you should get it. the book. Think you should get it. Available everywhere. Anything anywhere Available everywhere. Anything anywhere Available everywhere. Anything anywhere else you want to um direct people to to else you want to um direct people to to else you want to um direct people to to websites, Instagram, wherever you happen websites, Instagram, wherever you happen websites, Instagram, wherever you happen to be, Tik Tok. Well, people can find to be, Tik Tok. Well, people can find to be, Tik Tok. Well, people can find LessonLlesley at the place you would LessonLlesley at the place you would LessonLlesley at the place you would imagine, lessonlessly.com. imagine, lessonlessly.com. imagine, lessonlessly.com. So, uh, lessonlesley.com. We have So, uh, lessonlesley.com. We have So, uh, lessonlesley.com. We have everything there. I will mention one everything there. I will mention one everything there. I will mention one other thing, Carrie, that I'm so excited other thing, Carrie, that I'm so excited other thing, Carrie, that I'm so excited about, and I'm going to just put this about, and I'm going to just put this about, and I'm going to just put this out there with no explanation. If out there with no explanation. If out there with no explanation. If somebody wants a free little tool to somebody wants a free little tool to somebody wants a free little tool to assess the state of their relationship assess the state of their relationship assess the state of their relationship right now, go to myheartchart.com. >> myheart.com. Okay. myheehartchart.com. >> myheart.com. Okay. myheehartchart.com. It'll take you four minutes and I'm It'll take you four minutes and I'm It'll take you four minutes and I'm super excited about that. I want to come super excited about that. I want to come super excited about that. I want to come back on your podcast sometime later and back on your podcast sometime later and back on your podcast sometime later and and tell you why I'm so passionate about and tell you why I'm so passionate about and tell you why I'm so passionate about that. Butart.com. that. Butart.com. that. Butart.com. >> That's a deal. Les and we're owed to >> That's a deal. Les and we're owed to >> That's a deal. Les and we're owed to dinner. I was supposed to go for dinner, dinner. I was supposed to go for dinner, dinner. I was supposed to go for dinner, Tony and I were go for dinner with you Tony and I were go for dinner with you Tony and I were go for dinner with you and Lesie and then I ended up in the and Lesie and then I ended up in the and Lesie and then I ended up in the hospital. But that's a rain check. hospital. But that's a rain check. hospital. But that's a rain check. >> Yeah. But but did you really or was that >> Yeah. But but did you really or was that >> Yeah. But but did you really or was that just kind of a good uh just kind of a good uh just kind of a good uh >> It was you know we had to get lights and >> It was you know we had to get lights and >> It was you know we had to get lights and action and like you know all the makeup action and like you know all the makeup action and like you know all the makeup and everything but yeah it was a nice and everything but yeah it was a nice and everything but yeah it was a nice fake. It was a deep fake. It was a deep fake. It was a deep fake. It was a deep fake. It was a deep fake. It was a deep fake.

fake. fake. >> Judah, uh how about you? Uh where are >> Judah, uh how about you? Uh where are >> Judah, uh how about you? Uh where are people connecting with you as you head people connecting with you as you head people connecting with you as you head off? off? off? >> You find me on the golf course. Uh >> You find me on the golf course. Uh >> You find me on the golf course. Uh mostly in the Western Hemisphere. Yeah, mostly in the Western Hemisphere. Yeah, mostly in the Western Hemisphere. Yeah, you can locate me there. Um I'm you can locate me there. Um I'm you can locate me there. Um I'm constantly had my best score two days constantly had my best score two days constantly had my best score two days ago. I'm very excited about that. ago. I'm very excited about that. ago. I'm very excited about that. >> Really? Congrats, dude. I'm uh I guess >> Really? Congrats, dude. I'm uh I guess >> Really? Congrats, dude. I'm uh I guess I'm on Instagram and all that stuff, but I'm on Instagram and all that stuff, but I'm on Instagram and all that stuff, but um um um >> So, you're retiring and going pro. >> So, you're retiring and going pro. >> So, you're retiring and going pro. >> Excellent. >> Excellent. >> Excellent. >> That That's the goal. That's the goal. >> That That's the goal. That's the goal. >> That That's the goal. That's the goal. Yeah, that is the goal. Um we have a Yeah, that is the goal. Um we have a Yeah, that is the goal. Um we have a little church home app. Check it out. little church home app. Check it out. little church home app. Check it out. Church home 1H. Looks like church and Church home 1H. Looks like church and Church home 1H. Looks like church and every day we'll do a guided prayer with every day we'll do a guided prayer with every day we'll do a guided prayer with you and we'll we'll help you follow you and we'll we'll help you follow you and we'll we'll help you follow Jesus. Um you can download that if you Jesus. Um you can download that if you Jesus. Um you can download that if you want to. But ultimately, I love you want to. But ultimately, I love you want to. But ultimately, I love you both. And Carrie, I'm so happy that uh both. And Carrie, I'm so happy that uh both. And Carrie, I'm so happy that uh you let us do this with you today. you let us do this with you today. you let us do this with you today. >> Oh, I'm so grateful too. Love you guys. >> Oh, I'm so grateful too. Love you guys. >> Oh, I'm so grateful too. Love you guys. Thank you so much. And uh yeah, this was Thank you so much. And uh yeah, this was Thank you so much. And uh yeah, this was really really helpful.