The Spiritual Warfare Nobody's Talking About in Your Church

the dark forces of this world the dark forces of this world are experts in mass marketing sin. are experts in mass marketing sin. are experts in mass marketing sin. The the dark forces of this world are The the dark forces of this world are The the dark forces of this world are experts in mass marketing sin. We have experts in mass marketing sin. We have experts in mass marketing sin. We have to be really careful that we don't to be really careful that we don't to be really careful that we don't correlate the the incommunicable correlate the the incommunicable correlate the the incommunicable attributes of God with the these dark attributes of God with the these dark attributes of God with the these dark powers. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof powers. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof powers. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. Hey, I've got Joel joined us today. Hey, I've got Joel joined us today. Hey, I've got Joel Mudamali on the podcast. [music] Mudamali on the podcast. [music] Mudamali on the podcast. [music] We talk about We talk about We talk about what it takes to create an environment what it takes to create an environment what it takes to create an environment as a boss where you have a players on as a boss where you have a players on as a boss where you have a players on your team. How do you keep a guy like a your team. How do you keep a guy like a your team. How do you keep a guy like a resident theologian who has best-selling resident theologian who has best-selling resident theologian who has best-selling books on your team, keep him motivated? books on your team, keep him motivated? books on your team, keep him motivated? We're talking about the battle, the We're talking about the battle, the We're talking about the battle, the spiritual battle happening on your spiritual battle happening on your spiritual battle happening on your devices, mass marketing sin, and devices, mass marketing sin, and devices, mass marketing sin, and theocracy, and the subversion of theocracy, and the subversion of theocracy, and the subversion of political power and American political power and American political power and American nationalism, Christian [music] nationalism, Christian [music] nationalism, Christian [music] nationalism. So, all that with resident nationalism. So, all that with resident nationalism. So, all that with resident theologian Joel Mudamali today [music] theologian Joel Mudamali today [music] theologian Joel Mudamali today [music] on the podcast. Hey, so glad you joined on the podcast. Hey, so glad you joined on the podcast. Hey, so glad you joined us. Want to welcome all of you. For us. Want to welcome all of you. For us. Want to welcome all of you. For those of you who [music] are watching or those of you who [music] are watching or those of you who [music] are watching or listening for the first time, I'm really listening for the first time, I'm really listening for the first time, I'm really glad that you're here. Thanks so much glad that you're here. Thanks so much glad that you're here. Thanks so much for joining us. We got a temporary for joining us. We got a temporary for joining us. We got a temporary studio today. In fact, you might hear a studio today. In fact, you might hear a studio today. In fact, you might hear a little bit of texting back and forth.

little bit of texting back and forth. little bit of texting back and forth. Very few people break through on my Very few people break through on my Very few people break through on my phone, but we got a family chat going phone, but we got a family chat going phone, but we got a family chat going on. So, there's a few louder things on. So, there's a few louder things on. So, there's a few louder things along the way. Well, it's just because along the way. Well, it's just because along the way. Well, it's just because we're doing the show no matter where we we're doing the show no matter where we we're doing the show no matter where we are. Joel Mudamali is the director of are. Joel Mudamali is the director of are. Joel Mudamali is the director of theology and research at Proverbs 31 theology and research at Proverbs 31 theology and research at Proverbs 31 Ministries with Lysa TerKeurst and the Ministries with Lysa TerKeurst and the Ministries with Lysa TerKeurst and the theologian in residence for Haven Place theologian in residence for Haven Place theologian in residence for Haven Place Ministries. He also co-hosts the popular Ministries. He also co-hosts the popular Ministries. He also co-hosts the popular podcast Therapy and Theology with Lysa podcast Therapy and Theology with Lysa podcast Therapy and Theology with Lysa and licensed counselor Jim Cress. He and licensed counselor Jim Cress. He and licensed counselor Jim Cress. He serves on the preaching team at serves on the preaching team at serves on the preaching team at Transformation Church with Pastor Derwin Transformation Church with Pastor Derwin Transformation Church with Pastor Derwin Gray and is the author of Hidden Peace Gray and is the author of Hidden Peace Gray and is the author of Hidden Peace and his latest book The Unseen Battle. and his latest book The Unseen Battle. and his latest book The Unseen Battle. So, if you're watching for the first So, if you're watching for the first So, if you're watching for the first time, make sure you give us a follow or time, make sure you give us a follow or time, make sure you give us a follow or subscribe. If you're listening, do the subscribe. If you're listening, do the subscribe. If you're listening, do the same thing on whatever platform you're same thing on whatever platform you're same thing on whatever platform you're listening on. That way you'll never miss listening on. That way you'll never miss listening on. That way you'll never miss an episode. And now to my conversation an episode. And now to my conversation an episode. And now to my conversation with Joel Mudamali. Joel, I'm so glad to with Joel Mudamali. Joel, I'm so glad to with Joel Mudamali. Joel, I'm so glad to have you. Welcome. have you. Welcome. have you. Welcome. Thanks, Carey. I'm so excited for this Thanks, Carey. I'm so excited for this Thanks, Carey. I'm so excited for this conversation. conversation. conversation. You're in a very unique position. We're You're in a very unique position. We're You're in a very unique position. We're going to talk a lot of theology, but we going to talk a lot of theology, but we going to talk a lot of theology, but we were chatting a little bit and I've I've were chatting a little bit and I've I've were chatting a little bit and I've I've met you before. We've done an in-person met you before. We've done an in-person met you before. We've done an in-person with Lysa TerKeurst. So, you you get to with Lysa TerKeurst. So, you you get to with Lysa TerKeurst. So, you you get to write books, you get to sort of chart write books, you get to sort of chart write books, you get to sort of chart your own course, but you also work for a your own course, but you also work for a your own course, but you also work for a very well-known leader. And I'm curious very well-known leader. And I'm curious very well-known leader. And I'm curious about what that dynamic looks like about what that dynamic looks like about what that dynamic looks like because we have a lot of bosses, a lot because we have a lot of bosses, a lot because we have a lot of bosses, a lot of team members listening. And sometimes of team members listening. And sometimes of team members listening. And sometimes that dynamic isn't great, and you guys that dynamic isn't great, and you guys that dynamic isn't great, and you guys have sort of a really cool relationship.

have sort of a really cool relationship. have sort of a really cool relationship. I want to dig into a little bit. How did I want to dig into a little bit. How did I want to dig into a little bit. How did First of all, how do you become resident First of all, how do you become resident First of all, how do you become resident theologian for Lysa TerKeurst? How does theologian for Lysa TerKeurst? How does theologian for Lysa TerKeurst? How does that happen? Yeah, well, I think this is that happen? Yeah, well, I think this is that happen? Yeah, well, I think this is such a fun story. You know, I think Lysa such a fun story. You know, I think Lysa such a fun story. You know, I think Lysa has many spiritual gifts. One of the has many spiritual gifts. One of the has many spiritual gifts. One of the significant ones is her I I believe her significant ones is her I I believe her significant ones is her I I believe her ability to discern really is the ability to discern really is the ability to discern really is the spiritual gift of discernment. And so, spiritual gift of discernment. And so, spiritual gift of discernment. And so, we met, Carey, 12 years ago. I was we met, Carey, 12 years ago. I was we met, Carey, 12 years ago. I was working for a Bible software company, working for a Bible software company, working for a Bible software company, Logos Bible Software. Logos Bible Software. Logos Bible Software. >> Yeah. I was one of the presenter guys. >> Yeah. I was one of the presenter guys. >> Yeah. I was one of the presenter guys. I'd get on the you know, the the I'd get on the you know, the the I'd get on the you know, the the infomercial kind of thing. infomercial kind of thing. infomercial kind of thing. >> like quote sales, so Yeah. 100%? >> like quote sales, so Yeah. 100%? >> like quote sales, so Yeah. 100%? [laughter] Yeah, yeah. It was Bible [laughter] Yeah, yeah. It was Bible [laughter] Yeah, yeah. It was Bible software sales. That was kind of my job. software sales. That was kind of my job. software sales. That was kind of my job. And there was an event called Women of And there was an event called Women of And there was an event called Women of Faith and kind of these big arena events Faith and kind of these big arena events Faith and kind of these big arena events and, you know, kind of the who's who's and, you know, kind of the who's who's and, you know, kind of the who's who's of of women's ministry leaders, and I of of women's ministry leaders, and I of of women's ministry leaders, and I would be there every weekend and I would would be there every weekend and I would would be there every weekend and I would do my presentation. And there was this do my presentation. And there was this do my presentation. And there was this gal named Lysa TerKeurst who I always gal named Lysa TerKeurst who I always gal named Lysa TerKeurst who I always thought kind of drew the short stick. thought kind of drew the short stick. thought kind of drew the short stick. Like, it's the hardest thing to do the Like, it's the hardest thing to do the Like, it's the hardest thing to do the introduction for the, you know, the the introduction for the, you know, the the introduction for the, you know, the the commercial sales pitch in in between. commercial sales pitch in in between. commercial sales pitch in in between. And yet she would do it, and then what And yet she would do it, and then what And yet she would do it, and then what it was wild, Carey, is she would then it was wild, Carey, is she would then it was wild, Carey, is she would then come back down and sit in the front row, come back down and sit in the front row, come back down and sit in the front row, and then she would take her pen and her and then she would take her pen and her and then she would take her pen and her journal out and take notes. And here's journal out and take notes. And here's journal out and take notes. And here's the secret, Carey. I was doing the exact the secret, Carey. I was doing the exact the secret, Carey. I was doing the exact same thing every week. John chapter 4, same thing every week. John chapter 4, same thing every week. John chapter 4, woman at the well, hover over the woman at the well, hover over the woman at the well, hover over the English word, you know, truth, to find English word, you know, truth, to find English word, you know, truth, to find out the Greek word is aletheia, which out the Greek word is aletheia, which out the Greek word is aletheia, which means hiding nothing. Here's a woman who means hiding nothing. Here's a woman who means hiding nothing. Here's a woman who has spent her entire life in hiding and has spent her entire life in hiding and has spent her entire life in hiding and God finds her, you know? Um and and I God finds her, you know? Um and and I God finds her, you know? Um and and I remember one day Lysa came to me in the remember one day Lysa came to me in the remember one day Lysa came to me in the green room, and this was probably months green room, and this was probably months green room, and this was probably months in, and she looked at me and she said, in, and she looked at me and she said, in, and she looked at me and she said, "Hey, Joel, when are you going to stop

"Hey, Joel, when are you going to stop "Hey, Joel, when are you going to stop selling Bible software and start selling Bible software and start selling Bible software and start teaching the Bible?" teaching the Bible?" teaching the Bible?" And I was kind of like blown away. And And I was kind of like blown away. And And I was kind of like blown away. And and from a career standpoint, Carey, I'm and from a career standpoint, Carey, I'm and from a career standpoint, Carey, I'm kind of at the top of my career. Like, kind of at the top of my career. Like, kind of at the top of my career. Like, I'm doing arena events. Like, I'm I'm I'm doing arena events. Like, I'm I'm I'm doing arena events. Like, I'm I'm doing really well. And yet there was a doing really well. And yet there was a doing really well. And yet there was a deep restlessness. And I know we're deep restlessness. And I know we're deep restlessness. And I know we're going to talk about this later, but I going to talk about this later, but I going to talk about this later, but I remember having these moments getting remember having these moments getting remember having these moments getting done and hearing it's a wild feeling done and hearing it's a wild feeling done and hearing it's a wild feeling hearing 8 to 10,000 women laughing at hearing 8 to 10,000 women laughing at hearing 8 to 10,000 women laughing at your jokes, like biting, you know, like your jokes, like biting, you know, like your jokes, like biting, you know, like eating out the Bible. Like, oh, this eating out the Bible. Like, oh, this eating out the Bible. Like, oh, this like they were just absolutely loving like they were just absolutely loving like they were just absolutely loving the presentation. And the minute I get the presentation. And the minute I get the presentation. And the minute I get done, everybody knows me, they see me, done, everybody knows me, they see me, done, everybody knows me, they see me, and they say hi, and they love the and they say hi, and they love the and they say hi, and they love the pictures of my family. pictures of my family. pictures of my family. And then, what was so fascinating is I And then, what was so fascinating is I And then, what was so fascinating is I would get off would get off would get off and I would be absolutely and I would be absolutely and I would be absolutely lonely. lonely. lonely. Like, I would feel a deep sense of Like, I would feel a deep sense of Like, I would feel a deep sense of loneliness as I would get off the stage. loneliness as I would get off the stage. loneliness as I would get off the stage. And I remember Lysa had this And I remember Lysa had this And I remember Lysa had this conversation with me, and that began conversation with me, and that began conversation with me, and that began kind of a discussion and a dialogue kind of a discussion and a dialogue kind of a discussion and a dialogue where over time I kind of realized, man, where over time I kind of realized, man, where over time I kind of realized, man, God really wired me to want to study the God really wired me to want to study the God really wired me to want to study the Bible and to research it. And the real Bible and to research it. And the real Bible and to research it. And the real passion I had wasn't necessarily from passion I had wasn't necessarily from passion I had wasn't necessarily from selling Bible software, it was from selling Bible software, it was from selling Bible software, it was from seeing people get excited about the seeing people get excited about the seeing people get excited about the biblical text and equipped to read the biblical text and equipped to read the biblical text and equipped to read the Bible on its own terms by themselves, Bible on its own terms by themselves, Bible on its own terms by themselves, like for themselves. And so, that then like for themselves. And so, that then like for themselves. And so, that then the long story is she goes, "Hey, I've the long story is she goes, "Hey, I've the long story is she goes, "Hey, I've got this kind of desire where we have got this kind of desire where we have got this kind of desire where we have more access to the Bible than ever more access to the Bible than ever more access to the Bible than ever before, and yet biblical literacy is before, and yet biblical literacy is before, and yet biblical literacy is really really tanking.

really really tanking. really really tanking. And we have this passion at Proverbs 31 And we have this passion at Proverbs 31 And we have this passion at Proverbs 31 Ministries to eradicate biblical Ministries to eradicate biblical Ministries to eradicate biblical poverty." And I kind of had a Luke poverty." And I kind of had a Luke poverty." And I kind of had a Luke chapter 24 Road to Emmaus moment where chapter 24 Road to Emmaus moment where chapter 24 Road to Emmaus moment where my heart starts to burn alive, and my heart starts to burn alive, and my heart starts to burn alive, and here's this woman who's articulating here's this woman who's articulating here's this woman who's articulating words, which is so Lysa, right? Like, words, which is so Lysa, right? Like, words, which is so Lysa, right? Like, articulating words that I've been articulating words that I've been articulating words that I've been feeling that I've never been able to feeling that I've never been able to feeling that I've never been able to communicate. And then she goes, "Hey, communicate. And then she goes, "Hey, communicate. And then she goes, "Hey, would you ever consider coming and would you ever consider coming and would you ever consider coming and working for me at Proverbs?" And I was working for me at Proverbs?" And I was working for me at Proverbs?" And I was like, "Hey, Lysa, this is great, but two like, "Hey, Lysa, this is great, but two like, "Hey, Lysa, this is great, but two problems. One, I'm a guy. problems. One, I'm a guy. problems. One, I'm a guy. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> This is like this is a women's ministry, >> This is like this is a women's ministry, >> This is like this is a women's ministry, honey." Yeah. honey." Yeah. honey." Yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> Right. Like, how does that work? And >> Right. Like, how does that work? And >> Right. Like, how does that work? And then secondarily, when I was looking at then secondarily, when I was looking at then secondarily, when I was looking at what she was looking for, I had a what she was looking for, I had a what she was looking for, I had a seminary degree, but I didn't have a seminary degree, but I didn't have a seminary degree, but I didn't have a PhD. And I said, "Hey, you really need a PhD. And I said, "Hey, you really need a PhD. And I said, "Hey, you really need a guy that's got a PhD guy that's got a PhD guy that's got a PhD or a gal that's got a PhD, and I hear or a gal that's got a PhD, and I hear or a gal that's got a PhD, and I hear some recommendations." And she was like, some recommendations." And she was like, some recommendations." And she was like, "Well, what if you got a PhD?" At this "Well, what if you got a PhD?" At this "Well, what if you got a PhD?" At this point, Carey, I've got three little point, Carey, I've got three little point, Carey, I've got three little kids. My wife and I've been married for kids. My wife and I've been married for kids. My wife and I've been married for 10 years, actually just six or seven 10 years, actually just six or seven 10 years, actually just six or seven years. And I'm like, there's no way that years. And I'm like, there's no way that years. And I'm like, there's no way that I that I'd ever be able to accomplish a I that I'd ever be able to accomplish a I that I'd ever be able to accomplish a PhD program in this season of life. And PhD program in this season of life. And PhD program in this season of life. And she was like, "Well, what if we created she was like, "Well, what if we created she was like, "Well, what if we created the space for you to do it?" And I was the space for you to do it?" And I was the space for you to do it?" And I was like, "Wait, what? You would hire me like, "Wait, what? You would hire me like, "Wait, what? You would hire me full-time and create the space for me to full-time and create the space for me to full-time and create the space for me to do a PhD program?" She was like, do a PhD program?" She was like, do a PhD program?" She was like, "Absolutely." And kind of the rest is "Absolutely." And kind of the rest is "Absolutely." And kind of the rest is history. And I had a conversation with history. And I had a conversation with history. And I had a conversation with my wife. I actually realized through my wife. I actually realized through my wife. I actually realized through that conversation that what I thought that conversation that what I thought that conversation that what I thought was an incredibly solid marriage was on was an incredibly solid marriage was on was an incredibly solid marriage was on the verge of fracture. I was traveling the verge of fracture. I was traveling the verge of fracture. I was traveling about 140,000 air miles a year, about 140,000 air miles a year, about 140,000 air miles a year, mostly local.

mostly local. mostly local. >> You're from, yeah. Leaving my my wife >> You're from, yeah. Leaving my my wife >> You're from, yeah. Leaving my my wife and my kids back. We we start to build and my kids back. We we start to build and my kids back. We we start to build two different lives, you know, where and two different lives, you know, where and two different lives, you know, where and then when I come home, I'm actually then when I come home, I'm actually then when I come home, I'm actually messing up her life cuz she's got messing up her life cuz she's got messing up her life cuz she's got routines and and systems, and I've got routines and and systems, and I've got routines and and systems, and I've got opinions of how we should, you know, opinions of how we should, you know, opinions of how we should, you know, she's like, [laughter] "You're not even she's like, [laughter] "You're not even she's like, [laughter] "You're not even here for 80% you know?" Um in in that here for 80% you know?" Um in in that here for 80% you know?" Um in in that conversation, Lysa's one thing was, conversation, Lysa's one thing was, conversation, Lysa's one thing was, "Hey, you have to relocate to "Hey, you have to relocate to "Hey, you have to relocate to Charlotte." And cuz, you know, she does Charlotte." And cuz, you know, she does Charlotte." And cuz, you know, she does everything together, close-knit team. everything together, close-knit team. everything together, close-knit team. And I was like, "My [clears throat] wife And I was like, "My [clears throat] wife And I was like, "My [clears throat] wife will never go for this." And when we're will never go for this." And when we're will never go for this." And when we're on a walk, I won't ever forget the day. on a walk, I won't ever forget the day. on a walk, I won't ever forget the day. We're walking in in Chicago, Illinois, We're walking in in Chicago, Illinois, We're walking in in Chicago, Illinois, where we lived at the time. where we lived at the time. where we lived at the time. Britt said to me, "You need to call Lysa Britt said to me, "You need to call Lysa Britt said to me, "You need to call Lysa back right now and accept the job. Like, back right now and accept the job. Like, back right now and accept the job. Like, this is this is this is this is this is this is absolutely a non-negotiable for us. We absolutely a non-negotiable for us. We absolutely a non-negotiable for us. We got to do this." And that's what got to do this." And that's what got to do this." And that's what happened. And so, I spent the first five happened. And so, I spent the first five happened. And so, I spent the first five and a half years and a half years and a half years at Proverbs working on all of Lysa's at Proverbs working on all of Lysa's at Proverbs working on all of Lysa's book projects, Bible studies, Proverbs book projects, Bible studies, Proverbs book projects, Bible studies, Proverbs kind of resources, but really they kind of resources, but really they kind of resources, but really they created an immense amount of space for created an immense amount of space for created an immense amount of space for me to really tackle my PhD, my me to really tackle my PhD, my me to really tackle my PhD, my dissertation. And so, finished that in dissertation. And so, finished that in dissertation. And so, finished that in about five and a half years, which is about five and a half years, which is about five and a half years, which is fast relatively for a PhD dissertation.

fast relatively for a PhD dissertation. fast relatively for a PhD dissertation. And then, And then, And then, Lysa was the one who was like, "Hey, I Lysa was the one who was like, "Hey, I Lysa was the one who was like, "Hey, I think you should start writing books." think you should start writing books." think you should start writing books." And I was like, "I don't know, Lysa. And I was like, "I don't know, Lysa. And I was like, "I don't know, Lysa. I've seen like it's like watching Lysa I've seen like it's like watching Lysa I've seen like it's like watching Lysa write a book, it's like watching Michael write a book, it's like watching Michael write a book, it's like watching Michael Jordan shoot a fadeaway. Yeah, Jordan shoot a fadeaway. Yeah, Jordan shoot a fadeaway. Yeah, [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] yeah, yeah. It's kind of daunting." And yeah, yeah. It's kind of daunting." And yeah, yeah. It's kind of daunting." And she was like, "No, Joel, like we need we she was like, "No, Joel, like we need we she was like, "No, Joel, like we need we need your voice and we need your unique need your voice and we need your unique need your voice and we need your unique way. We don't need another Lysa way. We don't need another Lysa way. We don't need another Lysa TerKeurst out there. We need a Joel, you TerKeurst out there. We need a Joel, you TerKeurst out there. We need a Joel, you know, and know, and know, and theologically minded and all of that." theologically minded and all of that." theologically minded and all of that." And so, And so, And so, I would say Lysa, a couple things, I would say Lysa, a couple things, I would say Lysa, a couple things, Carey, about Lysa. Lysa's a better Carey, about Lysa. Lysa's a better Carey, about Lysa. Lysa's a better person off stage than she is on stage. person off stage than she is on stage. person off stage than she is on stage. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Um which I've met many ministry leaders, >> Um which I've met many ministry leaders, >> Um which I've met many ministry leaders, and sadly, I can't say that about and sadly, I can't say that about and sadly, I can't say that about everybody, right? everybody, right? everybody, right? >> The opposite's true often. Really nice >> The opposite's true often. Really nice >> The opposite's true often. Really nice on stage and a bear behind the scenes. on stage and a bear behind the scenes. on stage and a bear behind the scenes. >> Oh my goodness. And and devastating when >> Oh my goodness. And and devastating when >> Oh my goodness. And and devastating when you actually experience that, you know? you actually experience that, you know? you actually experience that, you know? And and Lysa's the the opposite. And the And and Lysa's the the opposite. And the And and Lysa's the the opposite. And the second thing is she has this thing in second thing is she has this thing in second thing is she has this thing in her where she is very intentional about her where she is very intentional about her where she is very intentional about the team that she puts around her. So, the team that she puts around her. So, the team that she puts around her. So, it's not like like the the path into it's not like like the the path into it's not like like the the path into that position is very intentional.

that position is very intentional. that position is very intentional. There's high bars, high responsibility. There's high bars, high responsibility. There's high bars, high responsibility. She's got this access responsibility She's got this access responsibility She's got this access responsibility thing, which is really important. And thing, which is really important. And thing, which is really important. And also, she gives you such freedom. also, she gives you such freedom. also, she gives you such freedom. There's trust. And so, um she's There's trust. And so, um she's There's trust. And so, um she's championed me really along the way. And championed me really along the way. And championed me really along the way. And then a couple years ago, there was a then a couple years ago, there was a then a couple years ago, there was a shift in our organization where Lysa shift in our organization where Lysa shift in our organization where Lysa moved into visionary president and then moved into visionary president and then moved into visionary president and then brought up Meredith Brock, who I think brought up Meredith Brock, who I think brought up Meredith Brock, who I think you know, Mer. And Mer is like this our you know, Mer. And Mer is like this our you know, Mer. And Mer is like this our CEO, you know, at Proverbs. And even CEO, you know, at Proverbs. And even CEO, you know, at Proverbs. And even that change is evidence of her intuitive that change is evidence of her intuitive that change is evidence of her intuitive nature to say, "Let's put the right nature to say, "Let's put the right nature to say, "Let's put the right people in the right places so the people in the right places so the people in the right places so the organization can flourish and the organization can flourish and the organization can flourish and the individual can flourish." And I remember individual can flourish." And I remember individual can flourish." And I remember one day I like read this article about, one day I like read this article about, one day I like read this article about, you know, the number two or the number you know, the number two or the number you know, the number two or the number like numbers two, three, four at like numbers two, three, four at like numbers two, three, four at Facebook, Google, Microsoft, they're Facebook, Google, Microsoft, they're Facebook, Google, Microsoft, they're crushing it. crushing it. crushing it. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> They're doing really well for >> They're doing really well for >> They're doing really well for themselves. And yet we live in a culture themselves. And yet we live in a culture themselves. And yet we live in a culture where everybody wants to be number one. where everybody wants to be number one. where everybody wants to be number one. Like, they desire the number one spot, Like, they desire the number one spot, Like, they desire the number one spot, but not recognizing the pressure, the but not recognizing the pressure, the but not recognizing the pressure, the stress, the accountability, the stress, the accountability, the stress, the accountability, the responsibility that comes with that. And responsibility that comes with that. And responsibility that comes with that. And also, like, are you wired to do that?

also, like, are you wired to do that? also, like, are you wired to do that? Has God gifted you, graced you for that Has God gifted you, graced you for that Has God gifted you, graced you for that role and that responsibility? And I role and that responsibility? And I role and that responsibility? And I remember Lisa once said to me, "Joel, I remember Lisa once said to me, "Joel, I remember Lisa once said to me, "Joel, I love that you get to be number one in love that you get to be number one in love that you get to be number one in your area, you know, the of of your your area, you know, the of of your your area, you know, the of of your passion, your expertise. And the great passion, your expertise. And the great passion, your expertise. And the great thing for me is I have no thing for me is I have no thing for me is I have no level of weight and stress for other level of weight and stress for other level of weight and stress for other areas that I just don't want to do or areas that I just don't want to do or areas that I just don't want to do or I'm not gifted at. I'm not called I'm not gifted at. I'm not called I'm not gifted at. I'm not called things. And so, it's been a really things. And so, it's been a really things. And so, it's been a really incredible season working under incredible season working under incredible season working under the best boss I've ever had, you know, the best boss I've ever had, you know, the best boss I've ever had, you know, just hands down. just hands down. just hands down. And so, yeah, that's kind of my story of And so, yeah, that's kind of my story of And so, yeah, that's kind of my story of how I got here. how I got here. how I got here. I think there's so many lessons. I mean, I think there's so many lessons. I mean, I think there's so many lessons. I mean, we did a day together, couple days, a we did a day together, couple days, a we did a day together, couple days, a few years ago when I was working on my few years ago when I was working on my few years ago when I was working on my previous book, Didn't See It Coming. previous book, Didn't See It Coming. previous book, Didn't See It Coming. Yep. I went down and took one of Lisa's Yep. I went down and took one of Lisa's Yep. I went down and took one of Lisa's two-day intensive, which basically means two-day intensive, which basically means two-day intensive, which basically means Lisa and her team and me and my team Lisa and her team and me and my team Lisa and her team and me and my team sitting around a table at her house sitting around a table at her house sitting around a table at her house together for a day. Highly, highly together for a day. Highly, highly together for a day. Highly, highly recommend. And that's where we first recommend. And that's where we first recommend. And that's where we first met. And I was impressed by the quality met. And I was impressed by the quality met. And I was impressed by the quality of leaders. But then when we were of leaders. But then when we were of leaders. But then when we were chatting, chatting, chatting, you know, and you're like, "Yeah, I get you know, and you're like, "Yeah, I get you know, and you're like, "Yeah, I get to write my own books. Lisa gives me a to write my own books. Lisa gives me a to write my own books. Lisa gives me a lot of freedom."

lot of freedom." lot of freedom." It's a very, It's a very, It's a very, you know, one of the pieces of mail we you know, one of the pieces of mail we you know, one of the pieces of mail we get on the regular on on get on the regular on on get on the regular on on my channels is from people who are like, my channels is from people who are like, my channels is from people who are like, "I have a very controlling boss." And "I have a very controlling boss." And "I have a very controlling boss." And this is often in a church context or "My this is often in a church context or "My this is often in a church context or "My boss won't let me." And I think it's boss won't let me." And I think it's boss won't let me." And I think it's really interesting that you get to and really interesting that you get to and really interesting that you get to and are encouraged to are encouraged to are encouraged to write your own book, have your own write your own book, have your own write your own book, have your own voice. She gives you the freedom to go voice. She gives you the freedom to go voice. She gives you the freedom to go and get a doctorate and and then write. and get a doctorate and and then write. and get a doctorate and and then write. So, what do you like speak for a moment So, what do you like speak for a moment So, what do you like speak for a moment about to the bosses who are maybe about to the bosses who are maybe about to the bosses who are maybe insecure. There's a lot of bosses who insecure. There's a lot of bosses who insecure. There's a lot of bosses who would be too insecure to do that. Well, would be too insecure to do that. Well, would be too insecure to do that. Well, if Joel's book would ever outsell mine if Joel's book would ever outsell mine if Joel's book would ever outsell mine or if Joel gets well known in his own or if Joel gets well known in his own or if Joel gets well known in his own right, then he's going to leave. Yeah, I right, then he's going to leave. Yeah, I right, then he's going to leave. Yeah, I think that's the internal dialogue of think that's the internal dialogue of think that's the internal dialogue of insecurity in a leader's mind and heart. insecurity in a leader's mind and heart. insecurity in a leader's mind and heart. Um speak to that. Why is that like a a Um speak to that. Why is that like a a Um speak to that. Why is that like a a very compelling environment for you? very compelling environment for you? very compelling environment for you? Yeah, I mean, one for me and it's not Yeah, I mean, one for me and it's not Yeah, I mean, one for me and it's not that opportunities haven't that opportunities haven't that opportunities haven't come through, you know, but when I come through, you know, but when I come through, you know, but when I assess and evaluate it, I just think, assess and evaluate it, I just think, assess and evaluate it, I just think, "Why would I ever want to leave this "Why would I ever want to leave this "Why would I ever want to leave this situation?"

situation?" situation?" >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Like, >> Like, >> Like, like, honestly, like, I get the like, honestly, like, I get the like, honestly, like, I get the opportunity, the flexibility. Now, opportunity, the flexibility. Now, opportunity, the flexibility. Now, there's high level of responsibility there's high level of responsibility there's high level of responsibility that I have. There's trust that has to that I have. There's trust that has to that I have. There's trust that has to be maintained along the way, but there's be maintained along the way, but there's be maintained along the way, but there's an environment that is really cultivated an environment that is really cultivated an environment that is really cultivated for me to flourish in the areas that I'm for me to flourish in the areas that I'm for me to flourish in the areas that I'm kind of committed to, you know, and that kind of committed to, you know, and that kind of committed to, you know, and that Lisa has seen space. The other thing Lisa has seen space. The other thing Lisa has seen space. The other thing that I would highly just suggest for any that I would highly just suggest for any that I would highly just suggest for any leader is that little like line that is leader is that little like line that is leader is that little like line that is being fed to you, right? Like, that it's being fed to you, right? Like, that it's being fed to you, right? Like, that it's that that background music of what what that that background music of what what that that background music of what what if they get better? What if they get if they get better? What if they get if they get better? What if they get more known? What if they become more more known? What if they become more more known? What if they become more successful, you know? And then I think successful, you know? And then I think successful, you know? And then I think that that's actually an invitation into that that's actually an invitation into that that's actually an invitation into honest dialogue with the condition of honest dialogue with the condition of honest dialogue with the condition of our hearts of saying like, our hearts of saying like, our hearts of saying like, yeah, what if? yeah, what if? yeah, what if? Like, let's play that out. Like, what Like, let's play that out. Like, what Like, let's play that out. Like, what if? Like, what is, you know, like, what if? Like, what is, you know, like, what if? Like, what is, you know, like, what is our cuz we assume that that means is our cuz we assume that that means is our cuz we assume that that means something less of me, you know, something less of me, you know, something less of me, you know, rather than looking at it and saying, rather than looking at it and saying, rather than looking at it and saying, "Man, that's actually an indication of "Man, that's actually an indication of "Man, that's actually an indication of an investment in discipleship that an investment in discipleship that an investment in discipleship that actually draws back more value to me, actually draws back more value to me, actually draws back more value to me, you know?" It it it identifies like you know?" It it it identifies like you know?" It it it identifies like trust and cultivation and growth. And trust and cultivation and growth. And trust and cultivation and growth. And so, this is something that Lisa has so, this is something that Lisa has so, this is something that Lisa has really, really modeled. Even in her really, really modeled. Even in her really, really modeled. Even in her compel training, I think it's kind of compel training, I think it's kind of compel training, I think it's kind of interesting, Carey. Sometimes people interesting, Carey. Sometimes people interesting, Carey. Sometimes people come into those trainings and they're come into those trainings and they're come into those trainings and they're like blown away because there's nothing like blown away because there's nothing like blown away because there's nothing hidden.

hidden. hidden. Like, you come in and you get Lisa's Like, you come in and you get Lisa's Like, you come in and you get Lisa's actual model. Like, I do an entire actual model. Like, I do an entire actual model. Like, I do an entire theological core. We've got an entire theological core. We've got an entire theological core. We've got an entire marketing kind of piece to it. And marketing kind of piece to it. And marketing kind of piece to it. And people are like, "Wait a minute. Like, people are like, "Wait a minute. Like, people are like, "Wait a minute. Like, you're this is actually how how you do you're this is actually how how you do you're this is actually how how you do it, you know?" it, you know?" it, you know?" >> me the secret sauce. You gave me the >> me the secret sauce. You gave me the >> me the secret sauce. You gave me the secret sauce. And so, the thought could secret sauce. And so, the thought could secret sauce. And so, the thought could be like, "Well, what if other people get be like, "Well, what if other people get be like, "Well, what if other people get more successful?" And it's like, and more successful?" And it's like, and more successful?" And it's like, and particularly for Christians, like, this particularly for Christians, like, this particularly for Christians, like, this is let's not think about the outside is let's not think about the outside is let's not think about the outside world, let's just think about Christians world, let's just think about Christians world, let's just think about Christians now. Praise God. now. Praise God. now. Praise God. Cuz we're doing kingdom work. Like like Cuz we're doing kingdom work. Like like Cuz we're doing kingdom work. Like like the gospel the gospel the gospel >> It's not like I have anything >> It's not like I have anything >> It's not like I have anything proprietary. Yeah, which by the way, proprietary. Yeah, which by the way, proprietary. Yeah, which by the way, this is not new nor novel. I could think this is not new nor novel. I could think this is not new nor novel. I could think about kind of Paul, you know, and Peter. about kind of Paul, you know, and Peter. about kind of Paul, you know, and Peter. I think about Apollos. And it's like and I think about Apollos. And it's like and I think about Apollos. And it's like and Paul at one point is like, like, yeah, Paul at one point is like, like, yeah, Paul at one point is like, like, yeah, like, who cares? Like like like Apollos, like, who cares? Like like like Apollos, like, who cares? Like like like Apollos, you know, Peter, like, whoever all these you know, Peter, like, whoever all these you know, Peter, like, whoever all these people, like, is the name of Jesus being people, like, is the name of Jesus being people, like, is the name of Jesus being proclaimed? And so, I I do think it's an proclaimed? And so, I I do think it's an proclaimed? And so, I I do think it's an invitation to humility and and I think invitation to humility and and I think invitation to humility and and I think that it would be disingenuous for me to that it would be disingenuous for me to that it would be disingenuous for me to say, "Well, don't worry about that. Like say, "Well, don't worry about that. Like say, "Well, don't worry about that. Like like they're not going to get better like they're not going to get better like they're not going to get better than you. Like, they're not going to be than you. Like, they're not going to be than you. Like, they're not going to be more successful." I actually think it more successful." I actually think it more successful." I actually think it might be an invitation for the opposite. might be an invitation for the opposite. might be an invitation for the opposite. Like, what if they do? And what if they Like, what if they do? And what if they Like, what if they do? And what if they do soar? What if they what if they are do soar? What if they what if they are do soar? What if they what if they are successful? And how amazing is it to successful? And how amazing is it to successful? And how amazing is it to almost pre-decide almost pre-decide almost pre-decide that my heart is going to celebrate that my heart is going to celebrate that my heart is going to celebrate their success?

their success? their success? Like, my heart is going to honor what Like, my heart is going to honor what Like, my heart is going to honor what the Lord is doing in their life. And I the Lord is doing in their life. And I the Lord is doing in their life. And I think that if we can pre-decide that, we think that if we can pre-decide that, we think that if we can pre-decide that, we can create environments for some of the can create environments for some of the can create environments for some of the most incredible people to flourish. And most incredible people to flourish. And most incredible people to flourish. And I think you'll find more often than not, I think you'll find more often than not, I think you'll find more often than not, their thought process is like, "Why their thought process is like, "Why their thought process is like, "Why would I ever want to leave?" would I ever want to leave?" would I ever want to leave?" Like, well, I kind of love it here. Like, well, I kind of love it here. Like, well, I kind of love it here. That's the point, right? And I'm so glad That's the point, right? And I'm so glad That's the point, right? And I'm so glad we're having this conversation because we're having this conversation because we're having this conversation because it's very counterintuitive. Leaders can it's very counterintuitive. Leaders can it's very counterintuitive. Leaders can become very proprietary. So, just for become very proprietary. So, just for become very proprietary. So, just for the leader who's like, "Huh, I've always the leader who's like, "Huh, I've always the leader who's like, "Huh, I've always wondered why either don't have A players wondered why either don't have A players wondered why either don't have A players or I can't hang on to A players. I can't or I can't hang on to A players. I can't or I can't hang on to A players. I can't hang on to rock stars. They always hang on to rock stars. They always hang on to rock stars. They always leave." leave." leave." Just bullet point a few things that make Just bullet point a few things that make Just bullet point a few things that make it And I'm not saying, you know, you're it And I'm not saying, you know, you're it And I'm not saying, you know, you're going to be there forever and ever, but going to be there forever and ever, but going to be there forever and ever, but you have no intention of going. It's a you have no intention of going. It's a you have no intention of going. It's a it's a mutually supportive ecosystem. it's a mutually supportive ecosystem. it's a mutually supportive ecosystem. So, for leaders who want to make the So, for leaders who want to make the So, for leaders who want to make the turn and say, "Okay, turn and say, "Okay, turn and say, "Okay, I got to stop controlling." You know, I got to stop controlling." You know, I got to stop controlling." You know, Andy Stanley always has said, Andy Stanley always has said, Andy Stanley always has said, "People say, 'Are you afraid of losing "People say, 'Are you afraid of losing "People say, 'Are you afraid of losing your people?'" He's like, "I don't have your people?'" He's like, "I don't have your people?'" He's like, "I don't have any people." any people." any people." Like [laughter] like these are not these Like [laughter] like these are not these Like [laughter] like these are not these are not my people. They're not my are not my people. They're not my are not my people. They're not my people. They're God's people. And I people. They're God's people. And I people. They're God's people. And I think that's a very mature attitude to think that's a very mature attitude to think that's a very mature attitude to it. So, what are the conditions that it. So, what are the conditions that it. So, what are the conditions that make it easy for you as an A player in make it easy for you as an A player in make it easy for you as an A player in your own right to stay?

your own right to stay? your own right to stay? Um I think one is trust. There there's a Um I think one is trust. There there's a Um I think one is trust. There there's a level of trust. I'm not micromanaged. Um level of trust. I'm not micromanaged. Um level of trust. I'm not micromanaged. Um I've been in micromanaging scenarios, I've been in micromanaging scenarios, I've been in micromanaging scenarios, not here, however, but in other not here, however, but in other not here, however, but in other situations. And I remember how defeating situations. And I remember how defeating situations. And I remember how defeating that was to me, you know, both that was to me, you know, both that was to me, you know, both emotionally, psychologically. emotionally, psychologically. emotionally, psychologically. >> explain why that's defeating. I mean, I >> explain why that's defeating. I mean, I >> explain why that's defeating. I mean, I totally get it. What but why is that totally get it. What but why is that totally get it. What but why is that defeating? Bosses may not understand defeating? Bosses may not understand defeating? Bosses may not understand that. that. that. >> always worried you're going to make a >> always worried you're going to make a >> always worried you're going to make a mistake. You're always worried that mistake. You're always worried that mistake. You're always worried that there's there's something there's there's there's something there's there's there's something there's overlooking. It's it's critiquing every overlooking. It's it's critiquing every overlooking. It's it's critiquing every little thing that that you do. And then little thing that that you do. And then little thing that that you do. And then if you're like, I'm a creative, I I'm an if you're like, I'm a creative, I I'm an if you're like, I'm a creative, I I'm an idea person. I like to explore ideas. idea person. I like to explore ideas. idea person. I like to explore ideas. You feel stifled in the very area that You feel stifled in the very area that You feel stifled in the very area that God has wired you to kind of flourish God has wired you to kind of flourish God has wired you to kind of flourish and to grow in, you know? So, if you and to grow in, you know? So, if you and to grow in, you know? So, if you have a micromanaging have a micromanaging have a micromanaging kind of kind of kind of supervisor, supervisor, supervisor, what you're going to notice is instead what you're going to notice is instead what you're going to notice is instead of taking risks that can actually be of taking risks that can actually be of taking risks that can actually be incredibly beautiful and provide growth incredibly beautiful and provide growth incredibly beautiful and provide growth and scale, some of them will flop for and scale, some of them will flop for and scale, some of them will flop for sure. What you'll find is people are sure. What you'll find is people are sure. What you'll find is people are just like, it's, you know, it's the just like, it's, you know, it's the just like, it's, you know, it's the parable of the talent of the guy who parable of the talent of the guy who parable of the talent of the guy who just digs the digs the money and then just digs the digs the money and then just digs the digs the money and then doesn't do anything with it cuz you're doesn't do anything with it cuz you're doesn't do anything with it cuz you're just terrified. You're terrified that just terrified. You're terrified that just terrified. You're terrified that you're going to you're going to make a you're going to you're going to make a you're going to you're going to make a mistake. And so, I think that is is a mistake. And so, I think that is is a mistake. And so, I think that is is a significant barrier for particularly significant barrier for particularly significant barrier for particularly A-level leaders that want to flourish A-level leaders that want to flourish A-level leaders that want to flourish and want to grow in their own rights, and want to grow in their own rights, and want to grow in their own rights, but they always feel like they've got but they always feel like they've got but they always feel like they've got the weight of the weight of the weight of the backseat quarterback, you know, the backseat quarterback, you know, the backseat quarterback, you know, money morning quarterbacking on it, money morning quarterbacking on it, money morning quarterbacking on it, which is just devastating. This episode which is just devastating. This episode which is just devastating. This episode is brought to you by The Art of is brought to you by The Art of is brought to you by The Art of Preaching. Every preacher makes Preaching. Every preacher makes Preaching. Every preacher makes mistakes. And the toughest part, you

mistakes. And the toughest part, you mistakes. And the toughest part, you always make them on Sunday morning in always make them on Sunday morning in always make them on Sunday morning in front of hundreds or sometimes thousands front of hundreds or sometimes thousands front of hundreds or sometimes thousands of people. Maybe, I've done this, you of people. Maybe, I've done this, you of people. Maybe, I've done this, you lose your train of thought mid-sermon. lose your train of thought mid-sermon. lose your train of thought mid-sermon. You fumble for your notes, like, "What You fumble for your notes, like, "What You fumble for your notes, like, "What was I trying to say?" Right? You search was I trying to say?" Right? You search was I trying to say?" Right? You search for the line and all you feel is every for the line and all you feel is every for the line and all you feel is every single eye staring back at you. single eye staring back at you. single eye staring back at you. Your gut drops. Your palms get sweaty. Your gut drops. Your palms get sweaty. Your gut drops. Your palms get sweaty. No, I'm not going to start singing, No, I'm not going to start singing, No, I'm not going to start singing, okay, or rapping. And you replay okay, or rapping. And you replay okay, or rapping. And you replay [clears throat] it all Sunday afternoon. [clears throat] it all Sunday afternoon. [clears throat] it all Sunday afternoon. And then when you're lying in bed that And then when you're lying in bed that And then when you're lying in bed that night, listen, I get it. After 30-plus night, listen, I get it. After 30-plus night, listen, I get it. After 30-plus years of preaching, I've made every years of preaching, I've made every years of preaching, I've made every mistake you can make as a communicator mistake you can make as a communicator mistake you can make as a communicator more than once. And that's one of the more than once. And that's one of the more than once. And that's one of the reasons I created The Art of Preaching. reasons I created The Art of Preaching. reasons I created The Art of Preaching. It's a step-by-step course that helps It's a step-by-step course that helps It's a step-by-step course that helps you break free from panic and preach you break free from panic and preach you break free from panic and preach with confidence. Instead of with confidence. Instead of with confidence. Instead of second-guessing yourself and staying up second-guessing yourself and staying up second-guessing yourself and staying up all Saturday night, you're going to know all Saturday night, you're going to know all Saturday night, you're going to know your message is going to be clear, your message is going to be clear, your message is going to be clear, memorable, and impactful long before you memorable, and impactful long before you memorable, and impactful long before you walk onto the stage or behind the walk onto the stage or behind the walk onto the stage or behind the pulpit. Most preaching resources give pulpit. Most preaching resources give pulpit. Most preaching resources give you inspiration. Some give you a formula you inspiration. Some give you a formula you inspiration. Some give you a formula to follow, but The Art of Preaching to follow, but The Art of Preaching to follow, but The Art of Preaching gives you the insights, strategies, and gives you the insights, strategies, and gives you the insights, strategies, and tools you need to transform your skill tools you need to transform your skill tools you need to transform your skill set and develop your gifting. You'll set and develop your gifting. You'll set and develop your gifting. You'll transform your skill set one step at a transform your skill set one step at a transform your skill set one step at a time. It's bite-size bits. The course is time. It's bite-size bits. The course is time. It's bite-size bits. The course is open for enrollment now, so you can open for enrollment now, so you can open for enrollment now, so you can check it out at the art of preaching check it out at the art of preaching check it out at the art of preaching course.com or by clicking the link in course.com or by clicking the link in course.com or by clicking the link in the description of this episode. Again, the description of this episode. Again, the description of this episode. Again, just click the link in the description just click the link in the description just click the link in the description of this episode to get instant access to of this episode to get instant access to of this episode to get instant access to The Art of Preaching. This episode is

The Art of Preaching. This episode is The Art of Preaching. This episode is brought to you by BELAY. Church leaders brought to you by BELAY. Church leaders brought to you by BELAY. Church leaders are called to lead with empathy, with are called to lead with empathy, with are called to lead with empathy, with wisdom, and with presence, but that's wisdom, and with presence, but that's wisdom, and with presence, but that's really hard to do when you're stretched really hard to do when you're stretched really hard to do when you're stretched too thin. And while artificial too thin. And while artificial too thin. And while artificial intelligence tools can help, they still intelligence tools can help, they still intelligence tools can help, they still need oversight, right? Mistakes happen, need oversight, right? Mistakes happen, need oversight, right? Mistakes happen, details get missed, and suddenly you're details get missed, and suddenly you're details get missed, and suddenly you're pulled away from the mission altogether. pulled away from the mission altogether. pulled away from the mission altogether. But what if you could already have the But what if you could already have the But what if you could already have the clarity and the margin to fully focus on clarity and the margin to fully focus on clarity and the margin to fully focus on your calling without letting all the your calling without letting all the your calling without letting all the important details that keep your church important details that keep your church important details that keep your church running slip through the cracks? running slip through the cracks? running slip through the cracks? Well, with BELAY, you can. BELAY hand Well, with BELAY, you can. BELAY hand Well, with BELAY, you can. BELAY hand matches pastors and church leaders with matches pastors and church leaders with matches pastors and church leaders with highly vetted, US-based assistants and highly vetted, US-based assistants and highly vetted, US-based assistants and financial experts who can take the financial experts who can take the financial experts who can take the operational work off your plate without operational work off your plate without operational work off your plate without sacrificing the human touch that your sacrificing the human touch that your sacrificing the human touch that your church and community deserve. So, you church and community deserve. So, you church and community deserve. So, you can stay present. You can lead well, and can stay present. You can lead well, and can stay present. You can lead well, and focus on what matters most. So, to learn focus on what matters most. So, to learn focus on what matters most. So, to learn more about why that human touch still more about why that human touch still more about why that human touch still matters, and how to balance it all with matters, and how to balance it all with matters, and how to balance it all with AI efficiently, download Belay's AI efficiently, download Belay's AI efficiently, download Belay's resource five traits AI can't replace.

resource five traits AI can't replace. resource five traits AI can't replace. Just text my name, the word Carey, to Just text my name, the word Carey, to Just text my name, the word Carey, to 55123 to claim your free download. 55123 to claim your free download. 55123 to claim your free download. That's Carey, c a r e y, to 55123. I'll That's Carey, c a r e y, to 55123. I'll That's Carey, c a r e y, to 55123. I'll do the other one is, this is something do the other one is, this is something do the other one is, this is something Lisa does often, is she asks me about my Lisa does often, is she asks me about my Lisa does often, is she asks me about my life. life. life. Mhm. Like, peop- people kind of joke Mhm. Like, peop- people kind of joke Mhm. Like, peop- people kind of joke like when they come to a theology study like when they come to a theology study like when they come to a theology study with us, they kind of people might be with us, they kind of people might be with us, they kind of people might be like, are you guys even like um like, are you guys even like um like, are you guys even like um effective? Like, are you even being effective? Like, are you even being effective? Like, are you even being efficient? Cuz the first hour and a half efficient? Cuz the first hour and a half efficient? Cuz the first hour and a half of our study days are like literally of our study days are like literally of our study days are like literally friends catching up. What's going on in friends catching up. What's going on in friends catching up. What's going on in your life? What And what I've actually your life? What And what I've actually your life? What And what I've actually found is found is found is Lisa's uh intuitive nature in those Lisa's uh intuitive nature in those Lisa's uh intuitive nature in those conversations is to actually identify conversations is to actually identify conversations is to actually identify potential roadblocks in my own life that potential roadblocks in my own life that potential roadblocks in my own life that I won't even see coming. I won't even see coming. I won't even see coming. You know? And so, creating space, asking You know? And so, creating space, asking You know? And so, creating space, asking questions, posing things to me on on questions, posing things to me on on questions, posing things to me on on health, um family balance, you know, health, um family balance, you know, health, um family balance, you know, travel, these kinds of things. What ends travel, these kinds of things. What ends travel, these kinds of things. What ends up actually happening in those moments up actually happening in those moments up actually happening in those moments is I'm getting mentored. is I'm getting mentored. is I'm getting mentored. So, uh I had a couple projects that I So, uh I had a couple projects that I So, uh I had a couple projects that I got offered uh over the last couple of got offered uh over the last couple of got offered uh over the last couple of years that a couple years ago, Carey, I years that a couple years ago, Carey, I years that a couple years ago, Carey, I would have been like, "Absolutely, like, would have been like, "Absolutely, like, would have been like, "Absolutely, like, this is so amazing." And in the season this is so amazing." And in the season this is so amazing." And in the season that I'm in right now, it's really hard.

that I'm in right now, it's really hard. that I'm in right now, it's really hard. My heart and my um you know, I'm like a My heart and my um you know, I'm like a My heart and my um you know, I'm like a performer, I'm an Enneagram 3, whatever performer, I'm an Enneagram 3, whatever performer, I'm an Enneagram 3, whatever people think about Enneagram, but I'm people think about Enneagram, but I'm people think about Enneagram, but I'm kind of like the performer. Uh and I and kind of like the performer. Uh and I and kind of like the performer. Uh and I and I hate to uh displace people. I hate to I hate to uh displace people. I hate to I hate to uh displace people. I hate to let people down. And I remember just let people down. And I remember just let people down. And I remember just really devastated cuz I knew in my heart really devastated cuz I knew in my heart really devastated cuz I knew in my heart like, I I can't do this, but I'm trying like, I I can't do this, but I'm trying like, I I can't do this, but I'm trying to figure out how to make it happen. And to figure out how to make it happen. And to figure out how to make it happen. And Lisa and I were having one of those Lisa and I were having one of those Lisa and I were having one of those catch-up conversations, me, Lisa, catch-up conversations, me, Lisa, catch-up conversations, me, Lisa, Meredith, Leah, and um in that she was Meredith, Leah, and um in that she was Meredith, Leah, and um in that she was able to mentor me on decision-making, able to mentor me on decision-making, able to mentor me on decision-making, and how at different phases of your and how at different phases of your and how at different phases of your career, you have to look at career, you have to look at career, you have to look at opportunities with an opportunity cost opportunities with an opportunity cost opportunities with an opportunity cost analysis, and you have to be honest analysis, and you have to be honest analysis, and you have to be honest about the season that you're in because about the season that you're in because about the season that you're in because it's better to let somebody down on the it's better to let somebody down on the it's better to let somebody down on the front end than to commit to something, front end than to commit to something, front end than to commit to something, and then let them down consistently and then let them down consistently and then let them down consistently throughout the entire process, you know, throughout the entire process, you know, throughout the entire process, you know, uh in the back end. So, I would just uh in the back end. So, I would just uh in the back end. So, I would just feel like discipleship, like honest feel like discipleship, like honest feel like discipleship, like honest conversation where she where like she conversation where she where like she conversation where she where like she often gives um years and years of often gives um years and years of often gives um years and years of expertise to me in a setting um that expertise to me in a setting um that expertise to me in a setting um that that is there. And then the the third that is there. And then the the third that is there. And then the the third thing is uh open communication. Uh it thing is uh open communication. Uh it thing is uh open communication. Uh it kind of feeds into number two, but we're kind of feeds into number two, but we're kind of feeds into number two, but we're in dialogue, not monologue, where and in dialogue, not monologue, where and in dialogue, not monologue, where and and this is hard for me. I've had to and this is hard for me. I've had to and this is hard for me. I've had to learn that if there are issues, learn that if there are issues, learn that if there are issues, she's a safe person to meet for me to she's a safe person to meet for me to she's a safe person to meet for me to bring the issues up to.

bring the issues up to. bring the issues up to. Now, there's no guarantee that it's Now, there's no guarantee that it's Now, there's no guarantee that it's going to be resolved the way I want it going to be resolved the way I want it going to be resolved the way I want it to be resolved, to be resolved, to be resolved, but I know that I'm going to be heard. but I know that I'm going to be heard. but I know that I'm going to be heard. And I know that that there's a And I know that that there's a And I know that that there's a conversation that's going to happen in conversation that's going to happen in conversation that's going to happen in light of that. And I think sometimes light of that. And I think sometimes light of that. And I think sometimes what happens is we feel like, "Oh man, what happens is we feel like, "Oh man, what happens is we feel like, "Oh man, we can't talk to the the the lead person we can't talk to the the the lead person we can't talk to the the the lead person because we're wasting their time, or um because we're wasting their time, or um because we're wasting their time, or um they're going to get frustrated, or they're going to get frustrated, or they're going to get frustrated, or they're going to get annoyed, or you they're going to get annoyed, or you they're going to get annoyed, or you know?" So, I would say, "If you're a know?" So, I would say, "If you're a know?" So, I would say, "If you're a senior leader, and your A people, your senior leader, and your A people, your senior leader, and your A people, your closest people come to you, and your closest people come to you, and your closest people come to you, and your response is, 'I'm annoyed, I don't have response is, 'I'm annoyed, I don't have response is, 'I'm annoyed, I don't have time for this. This is a you know, a time for this. This is a you know, a time for this. This is a you know, a waste of my time. You should have waste of my time. You should have waste of my time. You should have figured this out on your own.' These are figured this out on your own.' These are figured this out on your own.' These are all responses that are actually training all responses that are actually training all responses that are actually training your people not to come to you." your people not to come to you." your people not to come to you." Right. Right. Right. These are all responses that are saying, These are all responses that are saying, These are all responses that are saying, "This is not a safe environment." And by "This is not a safe environment." And by "This is not a safe environment." And by the way, those are the types of things the way, those are the types of things the way, those are the types of things that make the grass look so much greener that make the grass look so much greener that make the grass look so much greener on the other side. on the other side. on the other side. You know? And so, for me, it's like, You know? And so, for me, it's like, You know? And so, for me, it's like, "No." And this has been hard. I still "No." And this has been hard. I still "No." And this has been hard. I still struggle with this cuz I don't want to struggle with this cuz I don't want to struggle with this cuz I don't want to let people down. I don't want to stress let people down. I don't want to stress let people down. I don't want to stress out. I know she's busy. But out. I know she's busy. But out. I know she's busy. But consistently, every time she's like, consistently, every time she's like, consistently, every time she's like, "Why don't you come to me sooner?

"Why don't you come to me sooner? "Why don't you come to me sooner? Like, we could have we could have dealt Like, we could have we could have dealt Like, we could have we could have dealt with this like so much so much earlier, with this like so much so much earlier, with this like so much so much earlier, you know?" Um whatever those situations you know?" Um whatever those situations you know?" Um whatever those situations are. Um are. Um are. Um and then just uh constantly like, "Where and then just uh constantly like, "Where and then just uh constantly like, "Where do you want to go? What does the future do you want to go? What does the future do you want to go? What does the future look like? look like? look like? You know? Do you see yourself here You know? Do you see yourself here You know? Do you see yourself here forever? forever? forever? Um are there creative ways that we can Um are there creative ways that we can Um are there creative ways that we can uh uh uh create space for you to flourish? What create space for you to flourish? What create space for you to flourish? What if you want to do something that's not if you want to do something that's not if you want to do something that's not connected at all to Proverbs or to me? connected at all to Proverbs or to me? connected at all to Proverbs or to me? Um how can we support you in that?" Um how can we support you in that?" Um how can we support you in that?" Which I'm kind of like, "Wait a minute, Which I'm kind of like, "Wait a minute, Which I'm kind of like, "Wait a minute, why would you even offer that cuz it why would you even offer that cuz it why would you even offer that cuz it feels like you're pushing me out the feels like you're pushing me out the feels like you're pushing me out the door trying out new things." door trying out new things." door trying out new things." But I've actually learned the opposite. But I've actually learned the opposite. But I've actually learned the opposite. That that the more connected, she's That that the more connected, she's That that the more connected, she's actually creating bridges to the things actually creating bridges to the things actually creating bridges to the things that I'm passionate about. And she's that I'm passionate about. And she's that I'm passionate about. And she's staying closer to me in that. Proverbs staying closer to me in that. Proverbs staying closer to me in that. Proverbs is staying closer to me in that. And so, is staying closer to me in that. And so, is staying closer to me in that. And so, I think those are all things right off I think those are all things right off I think those are all things right off the top of my head that I would say have the top of my head that I would say have the top of my head that I would say have kept me really in in this place. kept me really in in this place. kept me really in in this place. Well, we're going to get into theology, Well, we're going to get into theology, Well, we're going to get into theology, but that was a 20-minute masterclass but that was a 20-minute masterclass but that was a 20-minute masterclass on how to create and keep a team of A on how to create and keep a team of A on how to create and keep a team of A players. And I mean, having experienced players. And I mean, having experienced players. And I mean, having experienced that myself, that myself, that myself, uh and spending some time with Lisa and uh and spending some time with Lisa and uh and spending some time with Lisa and the team, the team, the team, I [clears throat] can see it, but it's I [clears throat] can see it, but it's I [clears throat] can see it, but it's really good to go under the hood. So, really good to go under the hood. So, really good to go under the hood. So, thank you for that. So, we're going to thank you for that. So, we're going to thank you for that. So, we're going to talk theology. You're an in-house talk theology. You're an in-house talk theology. You're an in-house theologian, not a whole lot of jobs like theologian, not a whole lot of jobs like theologian, not a whole lot of jobs like that that that >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> out there. And >> out there. And >> out there. And you know, the thing that that really I you know, the thing that that really I you know, the thing that that really I think gets in the head of a lot of think gets in the head of a lot of think gets in the head of a lot of leaders who listen to this podcast is

leaders who listen to this podcast is leaders who listen to this podcast is suddenly, with the internet over the suddenly, with the internet over the suddenly, with the internet over the last 20 years, everyone's an amateur last 20 years, everyone's an amateur last 20 years, everyone's an amateur theologian. Everybody's got opinions on theologian. Everybody's got opinions on theologian. Everybody's got opinions on every message, on everything you do. You every message, on everything you do. You every message, on everything you do. You must see that on your own YouTube must see that on your own YouTube must see that on your own YouTube channel or your social. You just get channel or your social. You just get channel or your social. You just get people who perhaps don't have a PhD in people who perhaps don't have a PhD in people who perhaps don't have a PhD in theology arguing with that. theology arguing with that. theology arguing with that. You know, when you think about the good You know, when you think about the good You know, when you think about the good news is knowledge is democratized. The news is knowledge is democratized. The news is knowledge is democratized. The bad news is bad news is bad news is people get whatever hobby horse they're people get whatever hobby horse they're people get whatever hobby horse they're riding, and they ride it. Yeah. What are riding, and they ride it. Yeah. What are riding, and they ride it. Yeah. What are you like, would you say the state of you like, would you say the state of you like, would you say the state of theology is today, and how does that theology is today, and how does that theology is today, and how does that compare to perhaps 20 years ago if you compare to perhaps 20 years ago if you compare to perhaps 20 years ago if you can go back that far? can go back that far? can go back that far? >> That's That's such a good question. This >> That's That's such a good question. This >> That's That's such a good question. This is something I'm consistently thinking is something I'm consistently thinking is something I'm consistently thinking about. These are some of the reasons about. These are some of the reasons about. These are some of the reasons that you just uh identified, Carey, that that you just uh identified, Carey, that that you just uh identified, Carey, that I often think at least once a day, I I often think at least once a day, I I often think at least once a day, I think I'm done with Instagram, TikTok, think I'm done with Instagram, TikTok, think I'm done with Instagram, TikTok, shorts. Like, honestly, like I I I shorts. Like, honestly, like I I I shorts. Like, honestly, like I I I and I've actually made an intentional and I've actually made an intentional and I've actually made an intentional decision to spend more time on Substack decision to spend more time on Substack decision to spend more time on Substack for long-form content. for long-form content. for long-form content. >> yeah, yeah. You know? And so, you know, >> yeah, yeah. You know? And so, you know, >> yeah, yeah. You know? And so, you know, I I think that where the state of where I I think that where the state of where I I think that where the state of where we are is just because we have more we are is just because we have more we are is just because we have more access to theological information does access to theological information does access to theological information does not mean that we're becoming more not mean that we're becoming more not mean that we're becoming more knowledgeable um or responsible with knowledgeable um or responsible with knowledgeable um or responsible with with the with the information that is with the with the information that is with the with the information that is present uh to us. So, for instance, I present uh to us. So, for instance, I present uh to us. So, for instance, I think that at times people, because they think that at times people, because they think that at times people, because they can now get um a 60-second can now get um a 60-second can now get um a 60-second real on Paul um real on Paul um real on Paul um and uh you know, uh the new perspective and uh you know, uh the new perspective and uh you know, uh the new perspective on Paul through N.T. Wright's on Paul through N.T. Wright's on Paul through N.T. Wright's perspective in his book, like, they're perspective in his book, like, they're perspective in his book, like, they're like, "Oh, I now understand what N.T.

like, "Oh, I now understand what N.T. like, "Oh, I now understand what N.T. Wright is talking about when it comes to Wright is talking about when it comes to Wright is talking about when it comes to Paul the new perspective, right?" Lo and Paul the new perspective, right?" Lo and Paul the new perspective, right?" Lo and behold, I don't understand anything N.T. behold, I don't understand anything N.T. behold, I don't understand anything N.T. Wright is talking about. Oh my gosh. Wright is talking about. Oh my gosh. Wright is talking about. Oh my gosh. >> Seriously. And lo and behold, like, >> Seriously. And lo and behold, like, >> Seriously. And lo and behold, like, there are right behind me in my there are right behind me in my there are right behind me in my bookshelf, you can see on the video, bookshelf, you can see on the video, bookshelf, you can see on the video, I've there's he wrote a series of books I've there's he wrote a series of books I've there's he wrote a series of books that are like this thick, like, all all that are like this thick, like, all all that are like this thick, like, all all combined. And so, what's what ends up combined. And so, what's what ends up combined. And so, what's what ends up happening is we're getting short-form happening is we're getting short-form happening is we're getting short-form information that is conning us into information that is conning us into information that is conning us into believing that this short-form believing that this short-form believing that this short-form information is substantive and equates information is substantive and equates information is substantive and equates to um actual study and research and to um actual study and research and to um actual study and research and processing. And it also is inviting us processing. And it also is inviting us processing. And it also is inviting us into echo chambers of knowledge and into echo chambers of knowledge and into echo chambers of knowledge and information. information. information. And so, and the algorithm works that And so, and the algorithm works that And so, and the algorithm works that way, right? It It is. This is This is way, right? It It is. This is This is way, right? It It is. This is This is like this is good for business if you're like this is good for business if you're like this is good for business if you're Meta, or if you're YouTube, or Google, Meta, or if you're YouTube, or Google, Meta, or if you're YouTube, or Google, or you know, whoever you're with. This or you know, whoever you're with. This or you know, whoever you're with. This is good for business. Just get people is good for business. Just get people is good for business. Just get people arguing with you. I actually you nailed arguing with you. I actually you nailed arguing with you. I actually you nailed it. I actually know typically when a it. I actually know typically when a it. I actually know typically when a reel that I do or a post that I that reel that I do or a post that I that reel that I do or a post that I that I've posted is about to do well when I I've posted is about to do well when I I've posted is about to do well when I start to see all the haters come start to see all the haters come start to see all the haters come through, you know? Because what the through, you know? Because what the through, you know? Because what the algorithm has identified is, "Oh, we algorithm has identified is, "Oh, we algorithm has identified is, "Oh, we need to start feeding this content to need to start feeding this content to need to start feeding this content to other people that dis- disagree with other people that dis- disagree with other people that dis- disagree with it." But notice what ends up happening.

it." But notice what ends up happening. it." But notice what ends up happening. This is the the nature of the algorithm. This is the the nature of the algorithm. This is the the nature of the algorithm. The nature of the algorithm is to create The nature of the algorithm is to create The nature of the algorithm is to create competition, not genuine communication. competition, not genuine communication. competition, not genuine communication. Like, that's exactly what's happening. Like, that's exactly what's happening. Like, that's exactly what's happening. The The nature of the algorithm is like, The The nature of the algorithm is like, The The nature of the algorithm is like, "Let me compete against you, speak "Let me compete against you, speak "Let me compete against you, speak against you, take my points, fight against you, take my points, fight against you, take my points, fight against When When When you say um that there are When When When you say um that there are other gods of the nations." I wrote a other gods of the nations." I wrote a other gods of the nations." I wrote a book on called Unseen Battle, and I and book on called Unseen Battle, and I and book on called Unseen Battle, and I and I make this argument, like, "Hey, um I make this argument, like, "Hey, um I make this argument, like, "Hey, um that in the ancient world, the ancient that in the ancient world, the ancient that in the ancient world, the ancient peoples understood there to be the gods peoples understood there to be the gods peoples understood there to be the gods of the nations were legitimate spiritual of the nations were legitimate spiritual of the nations were legitimate spiritual beings." And then the person comes back, beings." And then the person comes back, beings." And then the person comes back, "Well, you're a heretic because that's "Well, you're a heretic because that's "Well, you're a heretic because that's not monotheism. And And we're not monotheism. And And we're not monotheism. And And we're monotheists. Are you saying that there monotheists. Are you saying that there monotheists. Are you saying that there are other gods than the one true God of are other gods than the one true God of are other gods than the one true God of heaven and earth?" I'm like, "No. heaven and earth?" I'm like, "No. heaven and earth?" I'm like, "No. Actually, I'm just saying that in your Actually, I'm just saying that in your Actually, I'm just saying that in your Bibles that you read, they you read them Bibles that you read, they you read them Bibles that you read, they you read them in English if you're in the West, right? in English if you're in the West, right? in English if you're in the West, right? And every English translation, by And every English translation, by And every English translation, by nature, is an interpretation. nature, is an interpretation. nature, is an interpretation. The The The uh Hebrew Bible is written in Hebrew.

uh Hebrew Bible is written in Hebrew. uh Hebrew Bible is written in Hebrew. The New Testament is written in Greek. The New Testament is written in Greek. The New Testament is written in Greek. Some of Daniel is written in Aramaic. Some of Daniel is written in Aramaic. Some of Daniel is written in Aramaic. And so, the Hebrew term Elohim is And so, the Hebrew term Elohim is And so, the Hebrew term Elohim is translated as God, and context translated as God, and context translated as God, and context determines how that is being used. determines how that is being used. determines how that is being used. Elohim is a categorical term for a Elohim is a categorical term for a Elohim is a categorical term for a disembodied spiritual being. And so, it disembodied spiritual being. And so, it disembodied spiritual being. And so, it can be used of Yahweh, the one uh true can be used of Yahweh, the one uh true can be used of Yahweh, the one uh true God, the uncreated creator, and it can God, the uncreated creator, and it can God, the uncreated creator, and it can also be used of other spiritual beings, also be used of other spiritual beings, also be used of other spiritual beings, and we see that in the actual biblical and we see that in the actual biblical and we see that in the actual biblical text. But notice how this requires text. But notice how this requires text. But notice how this requires communication. communication. communication. This requi- This requires us to be able This requi- This requires us to be able This requi- This requires us to be able to um to um to um move beyond our presupposition move beyond our presupposition move beyond our presupposition of what another person is saying, and of what another person is saying, and of what another person is saying, and fight against it, and saying, "Let me fight against it, and saying, "Let me fight against it, and saying, "Let me pause and ask for some clarification on pause and ask for some clarification on pause and ask for some clarification on what you mean by the term God." Uh and what you mean by the term God." Uh and what you mean by the term God." Uh and so, yeah, I think that we're living in so, yeah, I think that we're living in so, yeah, I think that we're living in an age of insane access to information. an age of insane access to information. an age of insane access to information. Insane access. And yet we have no Insane access. And yet we have no Insane access. And yet we have no ability to filter it and discern how to ability to filter it and discern how to ability to filter it and discern how to rightly understand that information. rightly understand that information. rightly understand that information. Okay, so I'm going to take you into my Okay, so I'm going to take you into my Okay, so I'm going to take you into my head a little bit. Like, we we just had head a little bit. Like, we we just had head a little bit. Like, we we just had a guest on the podcast. I won't say who.

a guest on the podcast. I won't say who. a guest on the podcast. I won't say who. And you know, it was someone who had a And you know, it was someone who had a And you know, it was someone who had a moral failure and it went up and of moral failure and it went up and of moral failure and it went up and of course it blows up. And you're right, course it blows up. And you're right, course it blows up. And you're right, there's a moment there's a moment there's a moment at which the algorithm kicks in at which the algorithm kicks in at which the algorithm kicks in and it's the comments before the and it's the comments before the and it's the comments before the algorithm kicks in who tend to be your algorithm kicks in who tend to be your algorithm kicks in who tend to be your followers, right? These are the people followers, right? These are the people followers, right? These are the people who who are regularly there. And it's a who who are regularly there. And it's a who who are regularly there. And it's a nuanced conversation. Some people are nuanced conversation. Some people are nuanced conversation. Some people are like, "You should never have had this like, "You should never have had this like, "You should never have had this guy on. I'm not sure why you did it." guy on. I'm not sure why you did it." guy on. I'm not sure why you did it." And some people are like, "Oh man, this And some people are like, "Oh man, this And some people are like, "Oh man, this was really helpful." And then was really helpful." And then was really helpful." And then you get the people who haven't seen the you get the people who haven't seen the you get the people who haven't seen the interview, haven't sat through the 2 interview, haven't sat through the 2 interview, haven't sat through the 2 hours, hours, hours, who have all kinds of opinions and these who have all kinds of opinions and these who have all kinds of opinions and these are the people the algorithm brings in are the people the algorithm brings in are the people the algorithm brings in and they're often the savage ones. And and they're often the savage ones. And and they're often the savage ones. And it's it's really challenging. Like I try it's it's really challenging. Like I try it's it's really challenging. Like I try to take DMs seriously. I got one from to take DMs seriously. I got one from to take DMs seriously. I got one from somebody who just said, you know, "I somebody who just said, you know, "I somebody who just said, you know, "I don't know why you're having this person don't know why you're having this person don't know why you're having this person on. Don't you understand?" on. Don't you understand?" on. Don't you understand?" I really gave some thoughtful time to I really gave some thoughtful time to I really gave some thoughtful time to respond. I thought, "I'm going to answer respond. I thought, "I'm going to answer respond. I thought, "I'm going to answer this one." this one." this one." Ghosted me after that. I'm like, "Okay. Ghosted me after that. I'm like, "Okay. Ghosted me after that. I'm like, "Okay. All right, why did I bother?" You know, All right, why did I bother?" You know, All right, why did I bother?" You know, and I'm just wondering how you engage and I'm just wondering how you engage and I'm just wondering how you engage that. We talked to Sharon McMahon about that. We talked to Sharon McMahon about that. We talked to Sharon McMahon about this on this podcast. We talked to other this on this podcast. We talked to other this on this podcast. We talked to other guests, but I'm wondering guests, but I'm wondering guests, but I'm wondering cuz there's part of you that must be cuz there's part of you that must be cuz there's part of you that must be saying, "Look, saying, "Look, saying, "Look, I have a PhD in theology. You've been I have a PhD in theology. You've been I have a PhD in theology. You've been discipled by YouTube. What do you know?"

discipled by YouTube. What do you know?" discipled by YouTube. What do you know?" I mean, but this is happening in the I mean, but this is happening in the I mean, but this is happening in the health sphere, this happening in the health sphere, this happening in the health sphere, this happening in the theology sphere, sphere, this is theology sphere, sphere, this is theology sphere, sphere, this is happening in all of the spheres. So, I happening in all of the spheres. So, I happening in all of the spheres. So, I guess my question is like how do you guess my question is like how do you guess my question is like how do you respond to that? respond to that? respond to that? So, one of the one of the things I think So, one of the one of the things I think So, one of the one of the things I think social media has done to people like you social media has done to people like you social media has done to people like you and I and even the [clears throat] and I and even the [clears throat] and I and even the [clears throat] individual that you're talking about is individual that you're talking about is individual that you're talking about is we're no longer people, we're products we're no longer people, we're products we're no longer people, we're products that are behind the screen. And it's that are behind the screen. And it's that are behind the screen. And it's almost like just like Amazon. Like I can almost like just like Amazon. Like I can almost like just like Amazon. Like I can go on to an Amazon product and rate the go on to an Amazon product and rate the go on to an Amazon product and rate the the product at five star, three star, the product at five star, three star, the product at five star, three star, two star. That's basically what we're two star. That's basically what we're two star. That's basically what we're doing with people. doing with people. doing with people. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> We're we're we're and we're proving it >> We're we're we're and we're proving it >> We're we're we're and we're proving it through our comments. And then again, through our comments. And then again, through our comments. And then again, it's almost like there's um it's almost like there's um it's almost like there's um these uh the audiences that we build, these uh the audiences that we build, these uh the audiences that we build, the algorithm wants the audiences to the algorithm wants the audiences to the algorithm wants the audiences to fight against each other um in defending fight against each other um in defending fight against each other um in defending the case of of the individual. And so, I the case of of the individual. And so, I the case of of the individual. And so, I was always struck Carrie by C.S. Lewis. was always struck Carrie by C.S. Lewis. was always struck Carrie by C.S. Lewis. Lewis was known for responding to many, Lewis was known for responding to many, Lewis was known for responding to many, many letters that were written to him. many letters that were written to him. many letters that were written to him. Um and so the handwritten would would Um and so the handwritten would would Um and so the handwritten would would take time in his week to respond to take time in his week to respond to take time in his week to respond to handwritten letters to him with his own handwritten letters to him with his own handwritten letters to him with his own handwritten letters and people still handwritten letters and people still handwritten letters and people still have have have >> Wow. um evidence of that and have, you >> Wow. um evidence of that and have, you >> Wow. um evidence of that and have, you know, grandparents or whatever that held know, grandparents or whatever that held know, grandparents or whatever that held onto a response from Clive or whatever.

onto a response from Clive or whatever. onto a response from Clive or whatever. And that kind of impacted me. So, I And that kind of impacted me. So, I And that kind of impacted me. So, I thought, "You know what? I'm going to thought, "You know what? I'm going to thought, "You know what? I'm going to respond as best I can to uh to comments respond as best I can to uh to comments respond as best I can to uh to comments uh in there." And the goal of that was, uh in there." And the goal of that was, uh in there." And the goal of that was, "Hey, by the way, I'm a person. Like I'm "Hey, by the way, I'm a person. Like I'm "Hey, by the way, I'm a person. Like I'm a human, you know? Uh a human, you know? Uh a human, you know? Uh I don't want you to get the auto, you I don't want you to get the auto, you I don't want you to get the auto, you know, Manny Chat reply or the link to know, Manny Chat reply or the link to know, Manny Chat reply or the link to you, whatever the the automated you, whatever the the automated you, whatever the the automated You know what I'm saying? Like no, no, You know what I'm saying? Like no, no, You know what I'm saying? Like no, no, this is me. Like I'm sitting here and this is me. Like I'm sitting here and this is me. Like I'm sitting here and I'm and I'm responding to you." And I I'm and I'm responding to you." And I I'm and I'm responding to you." And I quickly found out that at times it was quickly found out that at times it was quickly found out that at times it was beautiful. Like beautiful. Like beautiful. Like as soon as you reply with a sense of as soon as you reply with a sense of as soon as you reply with a sense of humility and understanding, but also humility and understanding, but also humility and understanding, but also conviction. Like I'm I'm convicted in conviction. Like I'm I'm convicted in conviction. Like I'm I'm convicted in what I believe. Here's a little bit more what I believe. Here's a little bit more what I believe. Here's a little bit more of what I'm thinking about. The response of what I'm thinking about. The response of what I'm thinking about. The response back to it often is one of two things. back to it often is one of two things. back to it often is one of two things. One, tripling down vindictive, angry, One, tripling down vindictive, angry, One, tripling down vindictive, angry, like, you know, aggressive. Or number like, you know, aggressive. Or number like, you know, aggressive. Or number two, it's like, "Huh, that's really two, it's like, "Huh, that's really two, it's like, "Huh, that's really interesting. I was confused by this." interesting. I was confused by this." interesting. I was confused by this." And then we get into meaningful And then we get into meaningful And then we get into meaningful conversation there. And at the very end conversation there. And at the very end conversation there. And at the very end of it, you know, there's a brilliant of it, you know, there's a brilliant of it, you know, there's a brilliant scholar Tom Schreiner. Tom wrote a book scholar Tom Schreiner. Tom wrote a book scholar Tom Schreiner. Tom wrote a book on like different views of women back on like different views of women back on like different views of women back back in the day with other scholars. And back in the day with other scholars. And back in the day with other scholars. And in the very beginning of the in the very beginning of the in the very beginning of the introduction, Tom says, "I'm a better introduction, Tom says, "I'm a better introduction, Tom says, "I'm a better scholar, a better scholar, a better scholar, a better you know, follower of Jesus basically you know, follower of Jesus basically you know, follower of Jesus basically because of the writing and the because of the writing and the because of the writing and the scholarship of these other individuals, scholarship of these other individuals, scholarship of these other individuals, though they disagree though like they're though they disagree though like they're though they disagree though like they're have opposite views of me." And at the have opposite views of me." And at the have opposite views of me." And at the very end of it he goes, "I'm a better very end of it he goes, "I'm a better very end of it he goes, "I'm a better you know, scholar because of that and you know, scholar because of that and you know, scholar because of that and I'm unconvinced."

I'm unconvinced." I'm unconvinced." And I love that. And I love that. And I love that. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I love that. Like, you know? And what >> I love that. Like, you know? And what >> I love that. Like, you know? And what would happen in social media? And so my would happen in social media? And so my would happen in social media? And so my personal approach now has been I won't personal approach now has been I won't personal approach now has been I won't engage with the comments that are so engage with the comments that are so engage with the comments that are so overtly aggressive, dehumanizing, overtly aggressive, dehumanizing, overtly aggressive, dehumanizing, like, you know, I just I don't want to like, you know, I just I don't want to like, you know, I just I don't want to feed fuel into it. And and I pray, like feed fuel into it. And and I pray, like feed fuel into it. And and I pray, like this sounds odd, but like I'll pray this sounds odd, but like I'll pray this sounds odd, but like I'll pray like, "Lord, are you releasing me to like, "Lord, are you releasing me to like, "Lord, are you releasing me to respond to this comment? I want to." respond to this comment? I want to." respond to this comment? I want to." Then I got to do a little bit of Then I got to do a little bit of Then I got to do a little bit of introspection. What is my goal? Is my introspection. What is my goal? Is my introspection. What is my goal? Is my goal to be like, "By the way, let me go goal to be like, "By the way, let me go goal to be like, "By the way, let me go ahead and parse the Hebrew for you." So, ahead and parse the Hebrew for you." So, ahead and parse the Hebrew for you." So, which I know you don't even know Hebrew, which I know you don't even know Hebrew, which I know you don't even know Hebrew, but you know, this is going to fly over but you know, this is going to fly over but you know, this is going to fly over your head, right? And then I go, "Oh, your head, right? And then I go, "Oh, your head, right? And then I go, "Oh, that's super prideful." that's super prideful." that's super prideful." Like [laughter] Like [laughter] Like [laughter] I'm not trying to have a comment. I'm I'm not trying to have a comment. I'm I'm not trying to have a comment. I'm just trying to point out that you suck. just trying to point out that you suck. just trying to point out that you suck. [clears throat] Like you're an idiot. [clears throat] Like you're an idiot. [clears throat] Like you're an idiot. Like, you know? I'm like, "Oh, that's Like, you know? I'm like, "Oh, that's Like, you know? I'm like, "Oh, that's that's actually a condition of my heart that's actually a condition of my heart that's actually a condition of my heart that the Lord actually has to sanctify, that the Lord actually has to sanctify, that the Lord actually has to sanctify, you know?" And I'm this is an imperfect you know?" And I'm this is an imperfect you know?" And I'm this is an imperfect Joel that's talking where I'm in Joel that's talking where I'm in Joel that's talking where I'm in progress and process right now. I just progress and process right now. I just progress and process right now. I just did a thing on like the war that we're did a thing on like the war that we're did a thing on like the war that we're in and there's a lot of stuff on end in and there's a lot of stuff on end in and there's a lot of stuff on end times and this is the fulfillment of it times and this is the fulfillment of it times and this is the fulfillment of it and Yeah. We're recording this while and Yeah. We're recording this while and Yeah. We're recording this while while the Iran Middle East conflict is while the Iran Middle East conflict is while the Iran Middle East conflict is in full in full in full bloom.

bloom. bloom. >> Yeah. And I I did a post where I did not >> Yeah. And I I did a post where I did not >> Yeah. And I I did a post where I did not take a position, but like I want to I'm take a position, but like I want to I'm take a position, but like I want to I'm going to give you going to give you going to give you I'm not going to tell you what to think, I'm not going to tell you what to think, I'm not going to tell you what to think, but I'm going to give you a lot to think but I'm going to give you a lot to think but I'm going to give you a lot to think about on different views theologically about on different views theologically about on different views theologically of Jeremiah 49 and how that's been of Jeremiah 49 and how that's been of Jeremiah 49 and how that's been interpreted and all these other things. interpreted and all these other things. interpreted and all these other things. Man, I got an email from a person and Man, I got an email from a person and Man, I got an email from a person and that email was basically like the that email was basically like the that email was basically like the accusations, the conspiracy theorists, accusations, the conspiracy theorists, accusations, the conspiracy theorists, like I'm getting paid off by the, you like I'm getting paid off by the, you like I'm getting paid off by the, you know, the by the government and all this know, the by the government and all this know, the by the government and all this other stuff. And I was just like it was other stuff. And I was just like it was other stuff. And I was just like it was wild actually. It was actually kind of wild actually. It was actually kind of wild actually. It was actually kind of wild. wild. wild. And I was like, "Am I really And I was And I was like, "Am I really And I was And I was like, "Am I really And I was like, no, there's something else that's like, no, there's something else that's like, no, there's something else that's going on going on going on in in this person's heart. I got to let in in this person's heart. I got to let in in this person's heart. I got to let it go, you know?" And and but it would it go, you know?" And and but it would it go, you know?" And and but it would hurt cuz I felt like hurt cuz I felt like hurt cuz I felt like I have been deeply misunderstood and now I have been deeply misunderstood and now I have been deeply misunderstood and now misrepresented. And yet misrepresented. And yet misrepresented. And yet my goal is not to like vindicate myself. my goal is not to like vindicate myself. my goal is not to like vindicate myself. Like I have to always go back to like Like I have to always go back to like Like I have to always go back to like what I deeply desire is for people to be what I deeply desire is for people to be what I deeply desire is for people to be able to rightly understand the word of able to rightly understand the word of able to rightly understand the word of God on the scriptures' own terms. Not my God on the scriptures' own terms. Not my God on the scriptures' own terms. Not my terms, not their terms, not a 21st terms, not their terms, not a 21st terms, not their terms, not a 21st century understanding of it on on the century understanding of it on on the century understanding of it on on the Bible's terms themselves. And so, if I Bible's terms themselves. And so, if I Bible's terms themselves. And so, if I become a resistance or a hindrance to become a resistance or a hindrance to become a resistance or a hindrance to that, man, I'm going to remove myself that, man, I'm going to remove myself that, man, I'm going to remove myself from that. This episode is brought to from that. This episode is brought to from that. This episode is brought to you by Church Growth Engine. So, why do you by Church Growth Engine. So, why do you by Church Growth Engine. So, why do churches with faithful members, solid churches with faithful members, solid churches with faithful members, solid preaching, and genuine love for God preaching, and genuine love for God preaching, and genuine love for God struggle to flourish in their struggle to flourish in their struggle to flourish in their communities? A lot of growth challenges communities? A lot of growth challenges communities? A lot of growth challenges are actually about removing predictable are actually about removing predictable are actually about removing predictable barriers that prevent churches from barriers that prevent churches from barriers that prevent churches from becoming everything God has called them becoming everything God has called them becoming everything God has called them to be. Church Growth Engine's guide, Why to be. Church Growth Engine's guide, Why to be. Church Growth Engine's guide, Why Do Good Churches Get Stuck? identifies

Do Good Churches Get Stuck? identifies Do Good Churches Get Stuck? identifies 10 fixable problems including leadership 10 fixable problems including leadership 10 fixable problems including leadership exhaustion cycles, visitor retention exhaustion cycles, visitor retention exhaustion cycles, visitor retention gaps, and the we're full illusion. gaps, and the we're full illusion. gaps, and the we're full illusion. Each challenge includes both symptoms to Each challenge includes both symptoms to Each challenge includes both symptoms to recognize and practical steps that have recognize and practical steps that have recognize and practical steps that have helped thousands of churches move from helped thousands of churches move from helped thousands of churches move from survival mode to thriving ministry. survival mode to thriving ministry. survival mode to thriving ministry. You'll see realistic timelines because You'll see realistic timelines because You'll see realistic timelines because lasting change can take a little time. lasting change can take a little time. lasting change can take a little time. So, ready to help your church thrive? So, ready to help your church thrive? So, ready to help your church thrive? Download the free guide today at Download the free guide today at Download the free guide today at churchgrowthengine.com/actionplan. That's That's churchgrowthengine.com/actionplan. Have you ever had a situation, I'm sure Have you ever had a situation, I'm sure you have, but I'm just wondering what you have, but I'm just wondering what you have, but I'm just wondering what the criteria are because everybody's the criteria are because everybody's the criteria are because everybody's mailbag is full so to speak, you know, mailbag is full so to speak, you know, mailbag is full so to speak, you know, their emails, their DMs, the the their emails, their DMs, the the their emails, their DMs, the the comments on social. So, even your social comments on social. So, even your social comments on social. So, even your social media team or AI posts your media team or AI posts your media team or AI posts your sermon series on Sunday and again, if it sermon series on Sunday and again, if it sermon series on Sunday and again, if it picks up, right? That clip, that reel picks up, right? That clip, that reel picks up, right? That clip, that reel Oh, yeah. goes viral even in a small Oh, yeah. goes viral even in a small Oh, yeah. goes viral even in a small way, you've got lots of people jumping way, you've got lots of people jumping way, you've got lots of people jumping in. Have you ever had examples in. Have you ever had examples in. Have you ever had examples of rewarding conversations where you're of rewarding conversations where you're of rewarding conversations where you're like, "Oh, that was worth it." And we like, "Oh, that was worth it." And we like, "Oh, that was worth it." And we had a meaningful exchange. And if so, had a meaningful exchange. And if so, had a meaningful exchange. And if so, what are the conditions or what are the what are the conditions or what are the what are the conditions or what are the the identifying characteristics I guess the identifying characteristics I guess the identifying characteristics I guess you would say that would make you think, you would say that would make you think, you would say that would make you think, "I think this is a shot at an honest "I think this is a shot at an honest "I think this is a shot at an honest dialogue." And I'm just telling you, I dialogue." And I'm just telling you, I dialogue." And I'm just telling you, I will often try to jump in and right now will often try to jump in and right now will often try to jump in and right now it's a couple times a year. I'm like, it's a couple times a year. I'm like, it's a couple times a year. I'm like, "I'm going to wade into the comments and "I'm going to wade into the comments and "I'm going to wade into the comments and I'm going to try to make this right."

I'm going to try to make this right." I'm going to try to make this right." And almost always I'm like, "What was I And almost always I'm like, "What was I And almost always I'm like, "What was I even thinking? Why did Why did I think even thinking? Why did Why did I think even thinking? Why did Why did I think this was a good idea? Why did I think this was a good idea? Why did I think this was a good idea? Why did I think this person was open for meaningful this person was open for meaningful this person was open for meaningful conversation?" Because now Now, if it's conversation?" Because now Now, if it's conversation?" Because now Now, if it's a friend, if you text me a friend, if you text me a friend, if you text me and like, "Hey Carrie, I've got real and like, "Hey Carrie, I've got real and like, "Hey Carrie, I've got real issues with, you know, this interview issues with, you know, this interview issues with, you know, this interview you did or this reel you posted." I'm you did or this reel you posted." I'm you did or this reel you posted." I'm like, "Joel, let's talk. Like let's go." like, "Joel, let's talk. Like let's go." like, "Joel, let's talk. Like let's go." So, I'm not talking about people I So, I'm not talking about people I So, I'm not talking about people I actually know. I'm talking about people actually know. I'm talking about people actually know. I'm talking about people I don't know on the internet. Yeah, let I don't know on the internet. Yeah, let I don't know on the internet. Yeah, let me just comment on that one first me just comment on that one first me just comment on that one first though. If you do know [laughter] me and though. If you do know [laughter] me and though. If you do know [laughter] me and you have my phone number, just text me. you have my phone number, just text me. you have my phone number, just text me. Like don't don't throw it in the Like don't don't throw it in the Like don't don't throw it in the comment in the, you know, like you have comment in the, you know, like you have comment in the, you know, like you have like we can just do that. So, that's like we can just do that. So, that's like we can just do that. So, that's yeah. So, that's just yeah. So, that's just yeah. So, that's just >> Actually, that's a really good point and >> Actually, that's a really good point and >> Actually, that's a really good point and you you'd probably, you know, for you you'd probably, you know, for you you'd probably, you know, for pastors they'd want to tell their pastors they'd want to tell their pastors they'd want to tell their church, "Hey, if you've got my email, church, "Hey, if you've got my email, church, "Hey, if you've got my email, like don't don't start arguing like don't don't start arguing like don't don't start arguing on on YouTube." Yeah. Like just send me on on YouTube." Yeah. Like just send me on on YouTube." Yeah. Like just send me a note, man. Yeah. Call me. Text me. a note, man. Yeah. Call me. Text me. a note, man. Yeah. Call me. Text me. Yeah, 100%. Especially if you have that Yeah, 100%. Especially if you have that Yeah, 100%. Especially if you have that relationship cuz again, what I think relationship cuz again, what I think relationship cuz again, what I think happens is we we now begin to think that happens is we we now begin to think that happens is we we now begin to think that the comments is a free-for-all. Like and the comments is a free-for-all. Like and the comments is a free-for-all. Like and and we almost in our brain we disconnect and we almost in our brain we disconnect and we almost in our brain we disconnect like, "No, this is a person I hang out like, "No, this is a person I hang out like, "No, this is a person I hang out with. This is a person that when I'm with. This is a person that when I'm with. This is a person that when I'm traveling I'll text and say, 'Hey, are traveling I'll text and say, 'Hey, are traveling I'll text and say, 'Hey, are you free? Let's grab dinner, you know?'" you free? Let's grab dinner, you know?'" you free? Let's grab dinner, you know?'" Like I know their kids. I know your Like I know their kids. I know your Like I know their kids. I know your family's like when I come in it brings family's like when I come in it brings family's like when I come in it brings me joy to see how they've grown from the me joy to see how they've grown from the me joy to see how they've grown from the last time I've seen them.

last time I've seen them. last time I've seen them. Um and so yeah, like just Um and so yeah, like just Um and so yeah, like just encourage human-to-human relationship, encourage human-to-human relationship, encourage human-to-human relationship, you know, when when it's there. Um okay, you know, when when it's there. Um okay, you know, when when it's there. Um okay, so what are the criteria? I do have an so what are the criteria? I do have an so what are the criteria? I do have an example. I did a series of posts about example. I did a series of posts about example. I did a series of posts about the um and this actually is connected to the um and this actually is connected to the um and this actually is connected to the book. So, I did a series of posts of the book. So, I did a series of posts of the book. So, I did a series of posts of Genesis 1 through 11 where I made the Genesis 1 through 11 where I made the Genesis 1 through 11 where I made the argument that Genesis 1 through 11 is argument that Genesis 1 through 11 is argument that Genesis 1 through 11 is not primarily about science. not primarily about science. not primarily about science. So, often when we read Genesis 1 through So, often when we read Genesis 1 through So, often when we read Genesis 1 through 11, we're trying to get scientific 11, we're trying to get scientific 11, we're trying to get scientific information out of it, particularly information out of it, particularly information out of it, particularly [clears throat] the creation account of [clears throat] the creation account of [clears throat] the creation account of Genesis 1 and 2 and then the story of Genesis 1 and 2 and then the story of Genesis 1 and 2 and then the story of the fall in Genesis chapter 3. And kind the fall in Genesis chapter 3. And kind the fall in Genesis chapter 3. And kind of my argument looking at the Hebrew of my argument looking at the Hebrew of my argument looking at the Hebrew Bible and particularly those chapters Bible and particularly those chapters Bible and particularly those chapters and the way that Moses is articulated in and the way that Moses is articulated in and the way that Moses is articulated in communicating the story is that um the communicating the story is that um the communicating the story is that um the goal is not to give us a science lesson, goal is not to give us a science lesson, goal is not to give us a science lesson, but in fact what's happening is that but in fact what's happening is that but in fact what's happening is that there's a polemic, there's an argument there's a polemic, there's an argument there's a polemic, there's an argument that is taking place against competing that is taking place against competing that is taking place against competing creation stories in the ancient Near creation stories in the ancient Near creation stories in the ancient Near Eastern time period. Particularly a Eastern time period. Particularly a Eastern time period. Particularly a creation story by uh the name of the creation story by uh the name of the creation story by uh the name of the Enuma Elish, which has this whole thing Enuma Elish, which has this whole thing Enuma Elish, which has this whole thing about Tiamat um you know, slain. That's about Tiamat um you know, slain. That's about Tiamat um you know, slain. That's where the creation story kind of where the creation story kind of where the creation story kind of happens, where the borders of humanity happens, where the borders of humanity happens, where the borders of humanity come in. There's another deity, Kingu, come in. There's another deity, Kingu, come in. There's another deity, Kingu, who has another battle with another who has another battle with another who has another battle with another deity. Out of the blood of this fallen deity. Out of the blood of this fallen deity. Out of the blood of this fallen deity is where humanity comes up.

deity is where humanity comes up. deity is where humanity comes up. Interestingly, humanity's role is to Interestingly, humanity's role is to Interestingly, humanity's role is to serve as slaves to the gods, uh you serve as slaves to the gods, uh you serve as slaves to the gods, uh you know, and then they're kind of viewed in know, and then they're kind of viewed in know, and then they're kind of viewed in this um subhuman, almost uh just uh this um subhuman, almost uh just uh this um subhuman, almost uh just uh meaningless, worthless uh identity. meaningless, worthless uh identity. meaningless, worthless uh identity. Interesting. In Genesis 1, 2, and 3, if Interesting. In Genesis 1, 2, and 3, if Interesting. In Genesis 1, 2, and 3, if you just look at the way that humanity's you just look at the way that humanity's you just look at the way that humanity's origin is, origin is, origin is, it's it's it's all shots at the creation story the all shots at the creation story the all shots at the creation story the creation myth of the Enuma Elish. God creation myth of the Enuma Elish. God creation myth of the Enuma Elish. God creates Adam and Eve from the dust of creates Adam and Eve from the dust of creates Adam and Eve from the dust of the ground, not out of blood. And then, the ground, not out of blood. And then, the ground, not out of blood. And then, um he lifts them and raises them into um he lifts them and raises them into um he lifts them and raises them into his royal garden in Eden. And the thing his royal garden in Eden. And the thing his royal garden in Eden. And the thing that brings them to life is his very that brings them to life is his very that brings them to life is his very breath that brings them to life. And breath that brings them to life. And breath that brings them to life. And then, he gives them a royal vocation and then, he gives them a royal vocation and then, he gives them a royal vocation and command. And not only that, he gives command. And not only that, he gives command. And not only that, he gives them something so unique that nothing them something so unique that nothing them something so unique that nothing else in creation has. They're made in else in creation has. They're made in else in creation has. They're made in the likeness and in the image of God the likeness and in the image of God the likeness and in the image of God himself. The Hebrew words there are himself. The Hebrew words there are himself. The Hebrew words there are demut and selem. And in the ancient Near demut and selem. And in the ancient Near demut and selem. And in the ancient Near Eastern world and in the Hebrew Eastern world and in the Hebrew Eastern world and in the Hebrew language, these words were used language, these words were used language, these words were used exclusively of children of royalty. So, exclusively of children of royalty. So, exclusively of children of royalty. So, when you heard those phrases, you're when you heard those phrases, you're when you heard those phrases, you're instantly thinking, "Wait a minute. This instantly thinking, "Wait a minute. This instantly thinking, "Wait a minute. This origin story for humanity is wildly origin story for humanity is wildly origin story for humanity is wildly different different different >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> than the story of the Enuma Elish." And >> than the story of the Enuma Elish." And >> than the story of the Enuma Elish." And so, now we're left wondering, "What is so, now we're left wondering, "What is so, now we're left wondering, "What is the purpose and identity of humanity? Is the purpose and identity of humanity? Is the purpose and identity of humanity? Is it Is it to be slaves of the gods? Uh to it Is it to be slaves of the gods? Uh to it Is it to be slaves of the gods? Uh to be mistreated and to be really be mistreated and to be really be mistreated and to be really subjugated? Or is it that No, you're subjugated? Or is it that No, you're subjugated? Or is it that No, you're actually children of the one true God of

actually children of the one true God of actually children of the one true God of heaven and earth, the uncreated creator? heaven and earth, the uncreated creator? heaven and earth, the uncreated creator? And as children, you have a holy royal And as children, you have a holy royal And as children, you have a holy royal vocation." So, I was kind of giving all vocation." So, I was kind of giving all vocation." So, I was kind of giving all of this out, and there's a guy that was of this out, and there's a guy that was of this out, and there's a guy that was a PhD uh Hebrew Bible PhD, and um a PhD uh Hebrew Bible PhD, and um a PhD uh Hebrew Bible PhD, and um brilliant, you know, and had a different brilliant, you know, and had a different brilliant, you know, and had a different take on the 7-day deal and what's take on the 7-day deal and what's take on the 7-day deal and what's happening in in Eden. And when the happening in in Eden. And when the happening in in Eden. And when the individual commented on this post, I individual commented on this post, I individual commented on this post, I read it, and there was aggression, a read it, and there was aggression, a read it, and there was aggression, a little bit of aggression in the comment, little bit of aggression in the comment, little bit of aggression in the comment, but as I was trying to assess it, I'm but as I was trying to assess it, I'm but as I was trying to assess it, I'm like, "Oh, I think this aggression comes like, "Oh, I think this aggression comes like, "Oh, I think this aggression comes from frustration. from frustration. from frustration. And less it's it's less combative. And And less it's it's less combative. And And less it's it's less combative. And it was there was substantive like it was there was substantive like it was there was substantive like feedback in it, where he's actually feedback in it, where he's actually feedback in it, where he's actually going, "Have you thought about this?" going, "Have you thought about this?" going, "Have you thought about this?" And "Have you thought about this?" And And "Have you thought about this?" And And "Have you thought about this?" And And then, I was like, And then, I was like, And then, I was like, "Good great points. Really great "Good great points. Really great "Good great points. Really great points." So, I responded to that. I points." So, I responded to that. I points." So, I responded to that. I said, "Hey, thanks so much, you know, said, "Hey, thanks so much, you know, said, "Hey, thanks so much, you know, for the for the for the thoughtful for the for the for the thoughtful for the for the for the thoughtful reply. Um I I am aware of those things. reply. Um I I am aware of those things. reply. Um I I am aware of those things. Here the reasons why I don't Those are Here the reasons why I don't Those are Here the reasons why I don't Those are things are unconvincing to me." And I things are unconvincing to me." And I things are unconvincing to me." And I give kind of my And we kind of go back give kind of my And we kind of go back give kind of my And we kind of go back and forth on the main public, you know. and forth on the main public, you know. and forth on the main public, you know. It was wild. Somebody else commented on It was wild. Somebody else commented on It was wild. Somebody else commented on that thread and it goes, "This is like that thread and it goes, "This is like that thread and it goes, "This is like this is how scholarship should be done.

this is how scholarship should be done. this is how scholarship should be done. Like, what if we all Like, what if we Like, what if we all Like, what if we Like, what if we all Like, what if we all interacted with each other the way all interacted with each other the way all interacted with each other the way that, you know, Joel and this other that, you know, Joel and this other that, you know, Joel and this other person are inter- Like, it was just person are inter- Like, it was just person are inter- Like, it was just really interesting to see. Lo and really interesting to see. Lo and really interesting to see. Lo and behold, we end up talking to each other behold, we end up talking to each other behold, we end up talking to each other on DM, you know, uh on DM, you know, uh on DM, you know, uh we have an really honest conversation. I we have an really honest conversation. I we have an really honest conversation. I think this individual is would be think this individual is would be think this individual is would be considered more of a modern kind of considered more of a modern kind of considered more of a modern kind of liberal scholar liberal scholar liberal scholar in a lot of ways. So, we see things in a lot of ways. So, we see things in a lot of ways. So, we see things totally differently, honestly, totally differently, honestly, totally differently, honestly, theologically. And yet, Carey, theologically. And yet, Carey, theologically. And yet, Carey, man, like the next time I'm in his area, man, like the next time I'm in his area, man, like the next time I'm in his area, we're going to go out and and and hang we're going to go out and and and hang we're going to go out and and and hang out and and grab some food. Like, and out and and grab some food. Like, and out and and grab some food. Like, and it's been a meaning He reaches out to me it's been a meaning He reaches out to me it's been a meaning He reaches out to me when he's got questions and concerns. I when he's got questions and concerns. I when he's got questions and concerns. I reach out to him and I actually ask him reach out to him and I actually ask him reach out to him and I actually ask him stuff like, "Hey, here, I'm getting stuff like, "Hey, here, I'm getting stuff like, "Hey, here, I'm getting ready to post this. What are your ready to post this. What are your ready to post this. What are your critiques on this? I want to kind of, critiques on this? I want to kind of, critiques on this? I want to kind of, you know, you know, you know, um and so that Those are kind of just um and so that Those are kind of just um and so that Those are kind of just examples of examples of examples of yes, there might be some aggression, but yes, there might be some aggression, but yes, there might be some aggression, but there might be some misunderstanding and there might be some misunderstanding and there might be some misunderstanding and frustration that frustration that frustration that that needs to be dialogued with in that needs to be dialogued with in that needs to be dialogued with in charity, and then assessed the responses charity, and then assessed the responses charity, and then assessed the responses along the way. along the way. along the way. Um and then, I think a relationship can Um and then, I think a relationship can Um and then, I think a relationship can And And by the way, we still disagree on And And by the way, we still disagree on And And by the way, we still disagree on that point.

that point. that point. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Like, we still disagree >> Like, we still disagree >> Like, we still disagree >> like that's like one academic paper >> like that's like one academic paper >> like that's like one academic paper written to argue with another academic written to argue with another academic written to argue with another academic paper, and it's done respectfully and paper, and it's done respectfully and paper, and it's done respectfully and thoughtfully, and yeah, we don't agree. thoughtfully, and yeah, we don't agree. thoughtfully, and yeah, we don't agree. So, two scenarios I think that come up. So, two scenarios I think that come up. So, two scenarios I think that come up. Uh Uh Uh you know, there people who who who don't you know, there people who who who don't you know, there people who who who don't have doctorates, and I don't have a have doctorates, and I don't have a have doctorates, and I don't have a doctorate. I don't. Um but we all have doctorate. I don't. Um but we all have doctorate. I don't. Um but we all have opinions, right? Strongly held, weakly opinions, right? Strongly held, weakly opinions, right? Strongly held, weakly formed opinions I think is the era of formed opinions I think is the era of formed opinions I think is the era of our age. And our age. And our age. And so, somebody starts commenting on so, somebody starts commenting on so, somebody starts commenting on something that you've said publicly. something that you've said publicly. something that you've said publicly. Two scenarios. One is Two scenarios. One is Two scenarios. One is they've been down some rabbit hole on they've been down some rabbit hole on they've been down some rabbit hole on the internet because the algorithm does the internet because the algorithm does the internet because the algorithm does serve up more and more extreme content serve up more and more extreme content serve up more and more extreme content all the time. So, they're convinced the all the time. So, they're convinced the all the time. So, they're convinced the earth is flat, or they're convinced that earth is flat, or they're convinced that earth is flat, or they're convinced that you know, something that that probably you know, something that that probably you know, something that that probably just isn't true theologically. just isn't true theologically. just isn't true theologically. Um and you don't know them. Um and you don't know them. Um and you don't know them. How do you respond? And then, if you do How do you respond? And then, if you do How do you respond? And then, if you do know them, know them, know them, how do you respond? Because I think a how do you respond? Because I think a how do you respond? Because I think a lot of leaders are in both scenarios, lot of leaders are in both scenarios, lot of leaders are in both scenarios, where it's like, yeah, I got some people where it's like, yeah, I got some people where it's like, yeah, I got some people I don't know. I I may never meet them. I I don't know. I I may never meet them. I I don't know. I I may never meet them. I don't know if they go to our church or don't know if they go to our church or don't know if they go to our church or not. They're arguing with me.

not. They're arguing with me. not. They're arguing with me. But then, I've got some guy who comes on But then, I've got some guy who comes on But then, I've got some guy who comes on the regular, brings his kids, donates, the regular, brings his kids, donates, the regular, brings his kids, donates, but he's in some weirdo rabbit hole on but he's in some weirdo rabbit hole on but he's in some weirdo rabbit hole on the internet right now, and is convinced the internet right now, and is convinced the internet right now, and is convinced that, you know, this about the book of that, you know, this about the book of that, you know, this about the book of Daniel or the second coming. I always Daniel or the second coming. I always Daniel or the second coming. I always pick on apocalyptic stuff. That tends to pick on apocalyptic stuff. That tends to pick on apocalyptic stuff. That tends to manifest, right? But they're in some manifest, right? But they're in some manifest, right? But they're in some rabbit hole where they're completely rabbit hole where they're completely rabbit hole where they're completely convinced, or they're they've they've convinced, or they're they've they've convinced, or they're they've they've they've majored in they've majored in they've majored in Genesis 1 through 3, but they completely Genesis 1 through 3, but they completely Genesis 1 through 3, but they completely disagree with your thesis that it was disagree with your thesis that it was disagree with your thesis that it was there to refute the ancient I guess Was there to refute the ancient I guess Was there to refute the ancient I guess Was it a Babylonian myth or something like it a Babylonian myth or something like it a Babylonian myth or something like that? The Enuma Elish? Uh so so, they that? The Enuma Elish? Uh so so, they that? The Enuma Elish? Uh so so, they can just completely disagree with you. can just completely disagree with you. can just completely disagree with you. Um Um Um so, what do you do when that's someone so, what do you do when that's someone so, what do you do when that's someone you don't know? And what do you do when you don't know? And what do you do when you don't know? And what do you do when it's someone you do know? Because the it's someone you do know? Because the it's someone you do know? Because the reality is for a lot of the people reality is for a lot of the people reality is for a lot of the people listening, listening, listening, they're it's both. They're people they they're it's both. They're people they they're it's both. They're people they don't know, people they do. don't know, people they do. don't know, people they do. Yeah, so um for the people that I don't Yeah, so um for the people that I don't Yeah, so um for the people that I don't know, this is going to seem very simple, know, this is going to seem very simple, know, this is going to seem very simple, but um I actually take a look real but um I actually take a look real but um I actually take a look real quick. If I if I feel a need to respond, quick. If I if I feel a need to respond, quick. If I if I feel a need to respond, I take a look at their profile.

I take a look at their profile. I take a look at their profile. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I did the same thing today. I did the >> I did the same thing today. I did the >> I did the same thing today. I did the same thing, man. Is it actually a same thing, man. Is it actually a same thing, man. Is it actually a profile pic? Does this person actually profile pic? Does this person actually profile pic? Does this person actually have followers like other You know, or have followers like other You know, or have followers like other You know, or is it one of those bot accounts? Is it a is it one of those bot accounts? Is it a is it one of those bot accounts? Is it a bot? bot? bot? >> Exactly. And I'm like, I'm not messing >> Exactly. And I'm like, I'm not messing >> Exactly. And I'm like, I'm not messing with no profile picture, no Like, it's with no profile picture, no Like, it's with no profile picture, no Like, it's honestly just a waste of my time. honestly just a waste of my time. honestly just a waste of my time. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> It's It's It's just not going to be >> It's It's It's just not going to be >> It's It's It's just not going to be helpful. Now, I see um a profile helpful. Now, I see um a profile helpful. Now, I see um a profile picture, and it might be whatever, and picture, and it might be whatever, and picture, and it might be whatever, and but there's followers, there's some but there's followers, there's some but there's followers, there's some engagement in there. And then, I assess engagement in there. And then, I assess engagement in there. And then, I assess kind of what I kind of what I kind of what I said before, is there genuine curiosity? said before, is there genuine curiosity? said before, is there genuine curiosity? Um is there a little bit of aggression, Um is there a little bit of aggression, Um is there a little bit of aggression, but it seems like there might be a place but it seems like there might be a place but it seems like there might be a place of misunderstanding. I might respond of misunderstanding. I might respond of misunderstanding. I might respond then to that with, "Hey, that's a really then to that with, "Hey, that's a really then to that with, "Hey, that's a really interesting idea." Or "Thanks Thanks for interesting idea." Or "Thanks Thanks for interesting idea." Or "Thanks Thanks for your thoughtful response." I'd like to your thoughtful response." I'd like to your thoughtful response." I'd like to pre- I almost want to even if it I don't pre- I almost want to even if it I don't pre- I almost want to even if it I don't think it was a thoughtful response, think it was a thoughtful response, think it was a thoughtful response, Carey. I almost want to put it in there Carey. I almost want to put it in there Carey. I almost want to put it in there so that the next response is thoughtful. so that the next response is thoughtful. so that the next response is thoughtful. Like, I almost want to seed their Like, I almost want to seed their Like, I almost want to seed their thinking of saying, "This is what I thinking of saying, "This is what I thinking of saying, "This is what I value." Like, I want this to be a value." Like, I want this to be a value." Like, I want this to be a thoughtful, honoring, engaging thoughtful, honoring, engaging thoughtful, honoring, engaging conversation. So, I almost want to like conversation. So, I almost want to like conversation. So, I almost want to like seed it in there like, "Thanks for your seed it in there like, "Thanks for your seed it in there like, "Thanks for your thoughtful response, your thoughtful response, your thoughtful response, your consideration." And then, I'll go into consideration." And then, I'll go into consideration." And then, I'll go into the next thing. So, almost recalibrating the next thing. So, almost recalibrating the next thing. So, almost recalibrating the tone. 100% 100%. I want to the tone. 100% 100%. I want to the tone. 100% 100%. I want to reestablish the boundaries of the reestablish the boundaries of the reestablish the boundaries of the conversation, you know? Just because it conversation, you know? Just because it conversation, you know? Just because it starts in aggression, doesn't mean I starts in aggression, doesn't mean I starts in aggression, doesn't mean I have to pick up the aggression and have to pick up the aggression and have to pick up the aggression and respond in aggression. In fact, it respond in aggression. In fact, it respond in aggression. In fact, it starts in aggression, I want to respond starts in aggression, I want to respond starts in aggression, I want to respond with that aggression in humility and with that aggression in humility and with that aggression in humility and also charity. Um Now, I know it's a also charity. Um Now, I know it's a also charity. Um Now, I know it's a buzzword that people hate today at buzzword that people hate today at buzzword that people hate today at times, but like it it's empathy. It's times, but like it it's empathy. It's times, but like it it's empathy. It's compassion. It's It's a desire to not compassion. It's It's a desire to not compassion. It's It's a desire to not allow um another person's like vitriol

allow um another person's like vitriol allow um another person's like vitriol to then become mine that I that that I to then become mine that I that that I to then become mine that I that that I take on. So, I'm trying to step in and take on. So, I'm trying to step in and take on. So, I'm trying to step in and think whatever is going on in their think whatever is going on in their think whatever is going on in their life. Maybe, you know, they slipped and life. Maybe, you know, they slipped and life. Maybe, you know, they slipped and and hurt their ankle. I played and hurt their ankle. I played and hurt their ankle. I played basketball yesterday, my back hurts basketball yesterday, my back hurts basketball yesterday, my back hurts today, you know? Like, you just woke up today, you know? Like, you just woke up today, you know? Like, you just woke up and you're you're upset. I'm like, and you're you're upset. I'm like, and you're you're upset. I'm like, "Okay. Now, with that in my mind, "Okay. Now, with that in my mind, "Okay. Now, with that in my mind, thinking about that, I'm going to thinking about that, I'm going to thinking about that, I'm going to respond in a kind and compassionate way, respond in a kind and compassionate way, respond in a kind and compassionate way, and then see what the response is." So, and then see what the response is." So, and then see what the response is." So, that would be that. Um that would be that. Um that would be that. Um with the person that you know, with the person that you know, with the person that you know, I would respond I would respond I would respond >> Okay. So, it's it's a little bit >> Okay. So, it's it's a little bit >> Okay. So, it's it's a little bit different because I mean, but you have a different because I mean, but you have a different because I mean, but you have a network of relationships as well as I network of relationships as well as I network of relationships as well as I do. But you know, for the average do. But you know, for the average do. But you know, for the average pastor, it's their church. And then, pastor, it's their church. And then, pastor, it's their church. And then, they got some guy who's in a wormhole, they got some guy who's in a wormhole, they got some guy who's in a wormhole, and just has all these opinions on the and just has all these opinions on the and just has all these opinions on the apocalypse, the end of the world, the apocalypse, the end of the world, the apocalypse, the end of the world, the creation story, uh whatever it happens creation story, uh whatever it happens creation story, uh whatever it happens to be, and is convinced that they're to be, and is convinced that they're to be, and is convinced that they're right. But they have a relationship. So, right. But they have a relationship. So, right. But they have a relationship. So, the equivalent for you or I, because our the equivalent for you or I, because our the equivalent for you or I, because our audience tends to self-select. Your audience tends to self-select. Your audience tends to self-select. Your audience, you know, I'm going to buy audience, you know, I'm going to buy audience, you know, I'm going to buy Joel's book, or I'm not going to buy Joel's book, or I'm not going to buy Joel's book, or I'm not going to buy Joel's book. I'm going to listen to his Joel's book. I'm going to listen to his Joel's book. I'm going to listen to his podcast, or I'm not going to listen. I'm podcast, or I'm not going to listen. I'm podcast, or I'm not going to listen. I'm going to subscribe, or I'm going to going to subscribe, or I'm going to going to subscribe, or I'm going to unsubscribe. Our audience self-selects.

unsubscribe. Our audience self-selects. unsubscribe. Our audience self-selects. Churches kind of work that way. But Churches kind of work that way. But Churches kind of work that way. But you're also, let's be honest, kind of you're also, let's be honest, kind of you're also, let's be honest, kind of stuck sometimes with the people that stuck sometimes with the people that stuck sometimes with the people that you've got, right? And they're going to you've got, right? And they're going to you've got, right? And they're going to be there Sunday after Sunday, and be there Sunday after Sunday, and be there Sunday after Sunday, and they're like, "Here's another article they're like, "Here's another article they're like, "Here's another article you need to read. Here's another link you need to read. Here's another link you need to read. Here's another link you need to look at." Yeah. Et cetera. you need to look at." Yeah. Et cetera. you need to look at." Yeah. Et cetera. And that could be a college buddy for And that could be a college buddy for And that could be a college buddy for you that you kind of have a relationship you that you kind of have a relationship you that you kind of have a relationship with, with, with, but from 20 years ago or 10 years ago, but from 20 years ago or 10 years ago, but from 20 years ago or 10 years ago, but like but like but like it's like, "Oh, dude, get out of that it's like, "Oh, dude, get out of that it's like, "Oh, dude, get out of that wormhole." Like, what do you do with wormhole." Like, what do you do with wormhole." Like, what do you do with someone like that? someone like that? someone like that? Um Or it's a brother-in-law. Um Or it's a brother-in-law. Um Or it's a brother-in-law. You know, or whatever. Yeah, or or some You know, or whatever. Yeah, or or some You know, or whatever. Yeah, or or some family member. Yeah, family, your uncle, family member. Yeah, family, your uncle, family member. Yeah, family, your uncle, your uncle. Yeah, there's a couple of your uncle. Yeah, there's a couple of your uncle. Yeah, there's a couple of responses. There's this amazing thing responses. There's this amazing thing responses. There's this amazing thing called boundaries that we can establish, called boundaries that we can establish, called boundaries that we can establish, right? [laughter] right? [laughter] right? [laughter] Uh Uh Uh I'll I'll get into that. So, uh there's I'll I'll get into that. So, uh there's I'll I'll get into that. So, uh there's a little quick story about this. Um I um a little quick story about this. Um I um a little quick story about this. Um I um so, my doctoral advisor is a guy named so, my doctoral advisor is a guy named so, my doctoral advisor is a guy named Dr. Michael Heiser. And Mike uh was Dr. Michael Heiser. And Mike uh was Dr. Michael Heiser. And Mike uh was probably like the leading um scholar, probably like the leading um scholar, probably like the leading um scholar, Hebrew Bible uh Semitic scholar on Hebrew Bible uh Semitic scholar on Hebrew Bible uh Semitic scholar on spiritual warfare, angels, demons, uh spiritual warfare, angels, demons, uh spiritual warfare, angels, demons, uh Old Testament, New Testament. And so, I Old Testament, New Testament. And so, I Old Testament, New Testament. And so, I wrote my dissertation underneath him. He wrote my dissertation underneath him. He wrote my dissertation underneath him. He was my second reader. Uh I did not come was my second reader. Uh I did not come was my second reader. Uh I did not come to the text with the with the um to the text with the with the um to the text with the with the um understanding that I have today 15 years understanding that I have today 15 years understanding that I have today 15 years ago. And so, Mike and I both have worked ago. And so, Mike and I both have worked ago. And so, Mike and I both have worked at Logos Bible Software. In fact, Mike at Logos Bible Software. In fact, Mike at Logos Bible Software. In fact, Mike was the scholar in residence and I was was the scholar in residence and I was was the scholar in residence and I was helping launch the Faithlife Study helping launch the Faithlife Study helping launch the Faithlife Study Bible, um which he contributed kind of Bible, um which he contributed kind of Bible, um which he contributed kind of massively to. And I came across this massively to. And I came across this massively to. And I came across this article on Psalm 82.

article on Psalm 82. article on Psalm 82. And when I read it, I thought, "This is And when I read it, I thought, "This is And when I read it, I thought, "This is heresy. This is heresy." The You mean heresy. This is heresy." The You mean heresy. This is heresy." The You mean Psalm 82 is heresy? No, no, no. His Psalm 82 is heresy? No, no, no. His Psalm 82 is heresy? No, no, no. His article commentary on Psalm 82. article commentary on Psalm 82. article commentary on Psalm 82. Yeah, his article. I'm like I'm like the Yeah, his article. I'm like I'm like the Yeah, his article. I'm like I'm like the what he wrote about Psalm 82. It's like, what he wrote about Psalm 82. It's like, what he wrote about Psalm 82. It's like, you know, um God sits in the assembly you know, um God sits in the assembly you know, um God sits in the assembly and he casts judgment upon the gods, you and he casts judgment upon the gods, you and he casts judgment upon the gods, you know? And his approach was that the gods know? And his approach was that the gods know? And his approach was that the gods of the assembly were in fact, um divine of the assembly were in fact, um divine of the assembly were in fact, um divine spiritual beings that were the gods of spiritual beings that were the gods of spiritual beings that were the gods of the nations that were fallen. And I read the nations that were fallen. And I read the nations that were fallen. And I read that and I was always taught coming up that and I was always taught coming up that and I was always taught coming up and even in seminary, these are human and even in seminary, these are human and even in seminary, these are human rulers. Like the Genesis 6, they're rulers. Like the Genesis 6, they're rulers. Like the Genesis 6, they're human rulers. It's the set that view. human rulers. It's the set that view. human rulers. It's the set that view. Psalm 82, human rulers. And I remember Psalm 82, human rulers. And I remember Psalm 82, human rulers. And I remember walking into Mike's office and in walking into Mike's office and in walking into Mike's office and in Bellingham. And when I walked in, by the Bellingham. And when I walked in, by the Bellingham. And when I walked in, by the way, when you walked into Mike's office way, when you walked into Mike's office way, when you walked into Mike's office and Mike actually passed. Um, he was and Mike actually passed. Um, he was and Mike actually passed. Um, he was diagnosed with stage four pancreatic diagnosed with stage four pancreatic diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer as I was submitting my third cancer as I was submitting my third cancer as I was submitting my third chapter of my dissertation. And so, I chapter of my dissertation. And so, I chapter of my dissertation. And so, I was able to finish my dissertation with was able to finish my dissertation with was able to finish my dissertation with him and he like he even said it was him and he like he even said it was him and he like he even said it was like, "Don't even think about getting like, "Don't even think about getting like, "Don't even think about getting another advisor. Like I'm going to see another advisor. Like I'm going to see another advisor. Like I'm going to see you through the finish line." And he you through the finish line." And he you through the finish line." And he did. Um, and yet, uh, sadly passed a did. Um, and yet, uh, sadly passed a did. Um, and yet, uh, sadly passed a couple of years after that. And so, uh, couple of years after that. And so, uh, couple of years after that. And so, uh, this was years ago and I walk into his this was years ago and I walk into his this was years ago and I walk into his office and behind him is a sign that office and behind him is a sign that office and behind him is a sign that says, um, reserved parking for Hebrew says, um, reserved parking for Hebrew says, um, reserved parking for Hebrew scholars only, right? So, just think scholars only, right? So, just think scholars only, right? So, just think about that for a second. And I'm a punk about that for a second. And I'm a punk about that for a second. And I'm a punk seminary kid, newly minted, you know?

seminary kid, newly minted, you know? seminary kid, newly minted, you know? Um, took a couple years of Hebrew, think Um, took a couple years of Hebrew, think Um, took a couple years of Hebrew, think I know the world. So, I know the world. So, I know the world. So, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I walk in and I'm just like, uh, I think >> I walk in and I'm just like, uh, I think >> I walk in and I'm just like, uh, I think I address him. Like, "I can't believe I address him. Like, "I can't believe I address him. Like, "I can't believe that we can't publish this. We can't that we can't publish this. We can't that we can't publish this. We can't This is heresy, Mike. Like, you know? This is heresy, Mike. Like, you know? This is heresy, Mike. Like, you know? Uh, like Psalm 82 is clearly talking Uh, like Psalm 82 is clearly talking Uh, like Psalm 82 is clearly talking about human rulers." And And Mike about human rulers." And And Mike about human rulers." And And Mike responded to me, Carey, and he goes, responded to me, Carey, and he goes, responded to me, Carey, and he goes, "Huh. "Huh. "Huh. Well, I have a seat. Why why do you Well, I have a seat. Why why do you Well, I have a seat. Why why do you think that they're human rulers and not think that they're human rulers and not think that they're human rulers and not angelic beings?" angelic beings?" angelic beings?" Like what is your argumentation? And it Like what is your argumentation? And it Like what is your argumentation? And it started a conversation. started a conversation. started a conversation. And so, I had to So, I give this story And so, I had to So, I give this story And so, I had to So, I give this story as an example cuz Mike could have easily as an example cuz Mike could have easily as an example cuz Mike could have easily been like, "By the way, do you see the been like, "By the way, do you see the been like, "By the way, do you see the sign that says I got I'm a Hebrew sign that says I got I'm a Hebrew sign that says I got I'm a Hebrew Semitics PhD scholar? Like I I dream in Semitics PhD scholar? Like I I dream in Semitics PhD scholar? Like I I dream in Ugaritic, you know? Like this is this is Ugaritic, you know? Like this is this is Ugaritic, you know? Like this is this is different level guy." And he didn't He different level guy." And he didn't He different level guy." And he didn't He He He posed a question cuz he cared He He posed a question cuz he cared He He posed a question cuz he cared about the way that I was thinking about about the way that I was thinking about about the way that I was thinking about it. And that made me face what I thought it. And that made me face what I thought it. And that made me face what I thought I knew. And what I realized was I was I knew. And what I realized was I was I knew. And what I realized was I was told a lot of things about Psalm 82. I told a lot of things about Psalm 82. I told a lot of things about Psalm 82. I did not read and study Psalm 82 on its did not read and study Psalm 82 on its did not read and study Psalm 82 on its own terms. And so, I had to go back to own terms. And so, I had to go back to own terms. And so, I had to go back to the drawing table. And so, I think that the drawing table. And so, I think that the drawing table. And so, I think that for the pastors that have these people for the pastors that have these people for the pastors that have these people that have gone through the conspiracy that have gone through the conspiracy that have gone through the conspiracy thing or the Tik Tok or whatever else, thing or the Tik Tok or whatever else, thing or the Tik Tok or whatever else, like this this tough for pastors. You're like this this tough for pastors. You're like this this tough for pastors. You're shepherding and you're discipling and shepherding and you're discipling and shepherding and you're discipling and you're you know, this is something I you're you know, this is something I you're you know, this is something I don't have to do on on a daily basis and don't have to do on on a daily basis and don't have to do on on a daily basis and I understand that. Um, and it might be I understand that. Um, and it might be I understand that. Um, and it might be really helpful to get a clear gauge of really helpful to get a clear gauge of really helpful to get a clear gauge of what exactly they're consuming.

what exactly they're consuming. what exactly they're consuming. Like where did they get these ideas? How Like where did they get these ideas? How Like where did they get these ideas? How are they being informed, you know? And are they being informed, you know? And are they being informed, you know? And then, once you get down that road of then, once you get down that road of then, once you get down that road of understanding where they're being understanding where they're being understanding where they're being informed, it's kind of like you want to informed, it's kind of like you want to informed, it's kind of like you want to do a little bit of discernment check do a little bit of discernment check do a little bit of discernment check with that of saying, "What are their with that of saying, "What are their with that of saying, "What are their qualifications to be able to make these qualifications to be able to make these qualifications to be able to make these kind of, um, claims and assertions? kind of, um, claims and assertions? kind of, um, claims and assertions? Where do we find evidence of this in the Where do we find evidence of this in the Where do we find evidence of this in the Bible itself? Where do we find evidence Bible itself? Where do we find evidence Bible itself? Where do we find evidence of this in church history? Is there a of this in church history? Is there a of this in church history? Is there a reception history that affirms these reception history that affirms these reception history that affirms these kinds of views? Or are the Are these kinds of views? Or are the Are these kinds of views? Or are the Are these fringe ideas, you know, that are fringe ideas, you know, that are fringe ideas, you know, that are actually distracting us from the call of actually distracting us from the call of actually distracting us from the call of the gospel in our lives? Um, and so, I the gospel in our lives? Um, and so, I the gospel in our lives? Um, and so, I think that there is a conversation. If think that there is a conversation. If think that there is a conversation. If they're receptive to that conversation, they're receptive to that conversation, they're receptive to that conversation, you can move them through. But I've you can move them through. But I've you can move them through. But I've found, Carey, sometimes found, Carey, sometimes found, Carey, sometimes people that are deep down this hole, people that are deep down this hole, people that are deep down this hole, they don't want to hear it. They just they don't want to hear it. They just they don't want to hear it. They just don't want to hear it. Right? You don't don't want to hear it. Right? You don't don't want to hear it. Right? You don't understand You don't understand, Joel. understand You don't understand, Joel. understand You don't understand, Joel. You don't understand. You don't You don't understand. You don't You don't understand. You don't understand. Yeah, you're like Yeah, understand. Yeah, you're like Yeah, understand. Yeah, you're like Yeah, yeah. yeah. yeah. Exactly. You like you you're not Exactly. You like you you're not Exactly. You like you you're not enlightened or whatever else. And to enlightened or whatever else. And to enlightened or whatever else. And to which I'd say, "Okay, then you have to which I'd say, "Okay, then you have to which I'd say, "Okay, then you have to establish boundaries. You really do.

establish boundaries. You really do. establish boundaries. You really do. And so, it's like if they're creating And so, it's like if they're creating And so, it's like if they're creating chaos and disruption in the church, it's chaos and disruption in the church, it's chaos and disruption in the church, it's like, "Hey, you know, and point out the like, "Hey, you know, and point out the like, "Hey, you know, and point out the scriptures. Like we care about an scriptures. Like we care about an scriptures. Like we care about an orderly service. And there's a place for orderly service. And there's a place for orderly service. And there's a place for you to have a conversation. If we come you to have a conversation. If we come you to have a conversation. If we come to a place where we fundamentally to a place where we fundamentally to a place where we fundamentally disagree upon this, um, disagree upon this, um, disagree upon this, um, I I just I will not engage further in I I just I will not engage further in I I just I will not engage further in conversation cuz it's not healthy for us conversation cuz it's not healthy for us conversation cuz it's not healthy for us to continue going along this way. Uh, to continue going along this way. Uh, to continue going along this way. Uh, and so, you want to establish boundaries and so, you want to establish boundaries and so, you want to establish boundaries in order to create in order to create in order to create space of peace for yourself, for your space of peace for yourself, for your space of peace for yourself, for your congregation, but also to let the other congregation, but also to let the other congregation, but also to let the other person know that this kind of person know that this kind of person know that this kind of conversation and obsession, you're free conversation and obsession, you're free conversation and obsession, you're free to do that on your own terms, uh, and to do that on your own terms, uh, and to do that on your own terms, uh, and and yet it's unwelcome, you know, Yeah, and yet it's unwelcome, you know, Yeah, and yet it's unwelcome, you know, Yeah, and you're not going to be teaching this and you're not going to be teaching this and you're not going to be teaching this in small group, at least not at our in small group, at least not at our in small group, at least not at our church. At least not at our church. church. At least not at our church. church. At least not at our church. Yeah. No, but I like I like your idea of Yeah. No, but I like I like your idea of Yeah. No, but I like I like your idea of what Mike did with you in in that he what Mike did with you in in that he what Mike did with you in in that he asked you a question. And, uh, somebody asked you a question. And, uh, somebody asked you a question. And, uh, somebody told me this years ago, but I really I told me this years ago, but I really I told me this years ago, but I really I really believe it's true. Most people really believe it's true. Most people really believe it's true. Most people are three questions away from their are three questions away from their are three questions away from their world view collapsing. Mhm. So, if world view collapsing. Mhm. So, if world view collapsing. Mhm. So, if you're like, you know, the young Hebrew you're like, you know, the young Hebrew you're like, you know, the young Hebrew PhD student upstart, right? You come in PhD student upstart, right? You come in PhD student upstart, right? You come in and, uh, all right, Mike, this is and, uh, all right, Mike, this is and, uh, all right, Mike, this is heresy. And he's like, "Well, tell me, heresy. And he's like, "Well, tell me, heresy. And he's like, "Well, tell me, why do you think that?" And you're like, why do you think that?" And you're like, why do you think that?" And you're like, "Well, you know, da da da da da da da."

"Well, you know, da da da da da da da." "Well, you know, da da da da da da da." And then "Okay, well, why do you think And then "Okay, well, why do you think And then "Okay, well, why do you think that?" And you're like, "Well, da da da that?" And you're like, "Well, da da da that?" And you're like, "Well, da da da da da da." And then "Why do you think da da da." And then "Why do you think da da da." And then "Why do you think that?" that?" that?" Mhm. I don't know. Right? Like very Mhm. I don't know. Right? Like very Mhm. I don't know. Right? Like very quickly Yeah. most people are reduced to quickly Yeah. most people are reduced to quickly Yeah. most people are reduced to "Well, I read it on the internet." or "I "Well, I read it on the internet." or "I "Well, I read it on the internet." or "I don't know." or "I I can't answer that don't know." or "I I can't answer that don't know." or "I I can't answer that question." And I think that's a really question." And I think that's a really question." And I think that's a really good cuz you don't have to come out good cuz you don't have to come out good cuz you don't have to come out swinging. You don't have to pull the swinging. You don't have to pull the swinging. You don't have to pull the credentials. Well, I have a doctorate credentials. Well, I have a doctorate credentials. Well, I have a doctorate and I dream in whatever you just said and I dream in whatever you just said and I dream in whatever you just said language. language. language. Right? Like you don't have to pull those Right? Like you don't have to pull those Right? Like you don't have to pull those cards and you can just ask questions and cards and you can just ask questions and cards and you can just ask questions and then often, if you're particularly if then often, if you're particularly if then often, if you're particularly if you're face-to-face or voice-to-voice, you're face-to-face or voice-to-voice, you're face-to-face or voice-to-voice, Yeah. people will will kind of realize, Yeah. people will will kind of realize, Yeah. people will will kind of realize, "Oh, I think I less know less than I "Oh, I think I less know less than I "Oh, I think I less know less than I think." Um, but you know, there there think." Um, but you know, there there think." Um, but you know, there there was this book. I I forget who wrote it. was this book. I I forget who wrote it. was this book. I I forget who wrote it. It's called The Death of Expertise. Mhm. It's called The Death of Expertise. Mhm. It's called The Death of Expertise. Mhm. And we do live in that age where And we do live in that age where And we do live in that age where everybody's smarter than their doctor, everybody's smarter than their doctor, everybody's smarter than their doctor, uh, where traditional medicine doesn't uh, where traditional medicine doesn't uh, where traditional medicine doesn't know anything, where the preachers, I know anything, where the preachers, I know anything, where the preachers, I know more than my preacher on whatever know more than my preacher on whatever know more than my preacher on whatever particular subject I'm I'm passionate particular subject I'm I'm passionate particular subject I'm I'm passionate about. So, I think those are good. Is about. So, I think those are good. Is about. So, I think those are good. Is there anything else on just dealing with there anything else on just dealing with there anything else on just dealing with the public vitriol that often comes at the public vitriol that often comes at the public vitriol that often comes at well-thought-out, well-prayed-through well-thought-out, well-prayed-through well-thought-out, well-prayed-through statements, sermons, theology, articles?

statements, sermons, theology, articles? statements, sermons, theology, articles? Because I do think that is the world Because I do think that is the world Because I do think that is the world that a lot of our listeners to this that a lot of our listeners to this that a lot of our listeners to this podcast live in and they're podcast live in and they're podcast live in and they're This is what kills them, right? This is This is what kills them, right? This is This is what kills them, right? This is why they can't focus at dinner. This is why they can't focus at dinner. This is why they can't focus at dinner. This is why they're distracted. This is why 24% why they're distracted. This is why 24% why they're distracted. This is why 24% of pastors are still thinking of of pastors are still thinking of of pastors are still thinking of quitting. Not the only reason, but one quitting. Not the only reason, but one quitting. Not the only reason, but one of the reasons. Any other tips or advice of the reasons. Any other tips or advice of the reasons. Any other tips or advice on that? Cuz I think it's a crisis-level on that? Cuz I think it's a crisis-level on that? Cuz I think it's a crisis-level problem that we're all facing. problem that we're all facing. problem that we're all facing. >> Yeah. No, I agree. I think the only >> Yeah. No, I agree. I think the only >> Yeah. No, I agree. I think the only other thing I can think of is at some other thing I can think of is at some other thing I can think of is at some point you've got to protect your own point you've got to protect your own point you've got to protect your own mental health and your own sanity. I mental health and your own sanity. I mental health and your own sanity. I generally don't read the comments. Like generally don't read the comments. Like generally don't read the comments. Like on this big piece that we released on this big piece that we released on this big piece that we released yesterday when we were recording, yesterday when we were recording, yesterday when we were recording, I did wade into the comments and I saw a I did wade into the comments and I saw a I did wade into the comments and I saw a lot of friends in there. They were like, lot of friends in there. They were like, lot of friends in there. They were like, "10 out of 10, this was amazing." And I "10 out of 10, this was amazing." And I "10 out of 10, this was amazing." And I got a lot of DMs and texts from people got a lot of DMs and texts from people got a lot of DMs and texts from people who actually know me. Actually none that who actually know me. Actually none that who actually know me. Actually none that thought it was a mistake, thought it was a mistake, thought it was a mistake, which is interesting. I mean, I'm sure which is interesting. I mean, I'm sure which is interesting. I mean, I'm sure some people thought it was a mistake. some people thought it was a mistake. some people thought it was a mistake. They just didn't let me know. But like They just didn't let me know. But like They just didn't let me know. But like it was really reaffirming and then I it was really reaffirming and then I it was really reaffirming and then I went in there and, you know, did click a went in there and, you know, did click a went in there and, you know, did click a few profiles and I thought, "Ah, this few profiles and I thought, "Ah, this few profiles and I thought, "Ah, this isn't worth it, right? Yeah." And I isn't worth it, right? Yeah." And I isn't worth it, right? Yeah." And I listened to my team, too. You know, they listened to my team, too. You know, they listened to my team, too. You know, they pay attention to the pay attention to the pay attention to the the public channels. So, the way I the public channels. So, the way I the public channels. So, the way I protect my mental health and I continue protect my mental health and I continue protect my mental health and I continue to do interviews like this one to do interviews like this one to do interviews like this one is that generally I'm not listening to is that generally I'm not listening to is that generally I'm not listening to the people I don't know well. But if the people I don't know well. But if the people I don't know well. But if it's a thoughtful comment, I will try to it's a thoughtful comment, I will try to it's a thoughtful comment, I will try to engage sometimes.

engage sometimes. engage sometimes. >> I think the other thing, too, is like, >> I think the other thing, too, is like, >> I think the other thing, too, is like, "Hey, at some level we have to cut off "Hey, at some level we have to cut off "Hey, at some level we have to cut off the oxygen to the vitriol, you know?" the oxygen to the vitriol, you know?" the oxygen to the vitriol, you know?" Right, because then you just start a Right, because then you just start a Right, because then you just start a whole other thread whole other thread whole other thread again that the algorithm realizes and again that the algorithm realizes and again that the algorithm realizes and and so on. So, and so on. So, and so on. So, you know, be our advisor now. Be our you know, be our advisor now. Be our you know, be our advisor now. Be our mentor. We've been talking a lot this mentor. We've been talking a lot this mentor. We've been talking a lot this year about discipleship by algorithm. year about discipleship by algorithm. year about discipleship by algorithm. The The basically the business model is The The basically the business model is The The basically the business model is to pull people into more and more to pull people into more and more to pull people into more and more extreme views on whatever subject extreme views on whatever subject extreme views on whatever subject they're interested in, whether that's they're interested in, whether that's they're interested in, whether that's fitness fitness fitness and you only eat, you know, this many and you only eat, you know, this many and you only eat, you know, this many exact grams of protein a day and exact grams of protein a day and exact grams of protein a day and everything has to be in I can't believe everything has to be in I can't believe everything has to be in I can't believe you actually you actually you actually had that piece of bread. I don't know had that piece of bread. I don't know had that piece of bread. I don't know why you would do that, Joel. Like you why you would do that, Joel. Like you why you would do that, Joel. Like you get into these like extreme positions get into these like extreme positions get into these like extreme positions now and it could be on anything from now and it could be on anything from now and it could be on anything from peptides to, um, you know, fitness to peptides to, um, you know, fitness to peptides to, um, you know, fitness to theology. Yeah. The algorithm's model, theology. Yeah. The algorithm's model, theology. Yeah. The algorithm's model, it rewards extreme consumption. So, it rewards extreme consumption. So, it rewards extreme consumption. So, everybody now has extreme views on everybody now has extreme views on everybody now has extreme views on something. And this is who we're something. And this is who we're something. And this is who we're pastoring. So, establish some pastoring. So, establish some pastoring. So, establish some boundaries, have conversations with boundaries, have conversations with boundaries, have conversations with people you know, maybe ignore the people people you know, maybe ignore the people people you know, maybe ignore the people you don't know. Any other guidance for you don't know. Any other guidance for you don't know. Any other guidance for leaders trying to navigate this this leaders trying to navigate this this leaders trying to navigate this this mess, I would call it, that we're in? I mess, I would call it, that we're in? I mess, I would call it, that we're in? I would just say do not discount the level would just say do not discount the level would just say do not discount the level of spiritual warfare that is at play on of spiritual warfare that is at play on of spiritual warfare that is at play on our devices. Like please don't.

our devices. Like please don't. our devices. Like please don't. >> Yeah, cuz that's your book, right? Like >> Yeah, cuz that's your book, right? Like >> Yeah, cuz that's your book, right? Like The Unseen Battle. You You The Unseen Battle. You You The Unseen Battle. You You >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. 100%. 100%. 100%. And and here's the thing. It's like the And and here's the thing. It's like the And and here's the thing. It's like the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the spiritual battle that's the the spiritual battle that's the the spiritual battle that's happening on our devices? So, what's so happening on our devices? So, what's so happening on our devices? So, what's so fascinating is that in Genesis 3, um, fascinating is that in Genesis 3, um, fascinating is that in Genesis 3, um, in Gen like in these three rebellions, I in Gen like in these three rebellions, I in Gen like in these three rebellions, I kind of frame The Unseen Battle as three kind of frame The Unseen Battle as three kind of frame The Unseen Battle as three rebellions. And you've got the rebellion rebellions. And you've got the rebellion rebellions. And you've got the rebellion of Genesis 3, Genesis 6, and Genesis 11. of Genesis 3, Genesis 6, and Genesis 11. of Genesis 3, Genesis 6, and Genesis 11. And in each of these rebellions, you And in each of these rebellions, you And in each of these rebellions, you find a correlation and a pattern. And find a correlation and a pattern. And find a correlation and a pattern. And the pattern is see, desire, and take. the pattern is see, desire, and take. the pattern is see, desire, and take. So, uh, Eve sees the the the fruit is So, uh, Eve sees the the the fruit is So, uh, Eve sees the the the fruit is good, right? It's pleasant, which is good, right? It's pleasant, which is good, right? It's pleasant, which is true. It looked good and it was true. It looked good and it was true. It looked good and it was pleasant. She desires it, which is like pleasant. She desires it, which is like pleasant. She desires it, which is like a normal human response to seeing a normal human response to seeing a normal human response to seeing something. Like of course you're going something. Like of course you're going something. Like of course you're going to desire it. The question, and this is to desire it. The question, and this is to desire it. The question, and this is where spiritual warfare comes in. The where spiritual warfare comes in. The where spiritual warfare comes in. The question is the space in between the the question is the space in between the the question is the space in between the the desire and the response. desire and the response. desire and the response. So, so when you have that desire, what So, so when you have that desire, what So, so when you have that desire, what do you do with that desire? The serpent do you do with that desire? The serpent do you do with that desire? The serpent says, the nakash says, "Take it. You says, the nakash says, "Take it. You says, the nakash says, "Take it. You deserve it. The God's actually holding deserve it. The God's actually holding deserve it. The God's actually holding something back from you, you know?" Um, something back from you, you know?" Um, something back from you, you know?" Um, which actually I think is one of the which actually I think is one of the which actually I think is one of the most uh insane propositions because one most uh insane propositions because one most uh insane propositions because one of the other details that we find in of the other details that we find in of the other details that we find in Genesis chapter 3 is that it was routine Genesis chapter 3 is that it was routine Genesis chapter 3 is that it was routine for Yahweh to walk and talk with Adam for Yahweh to walk and talk with Adam for Yahweh to walk and talk with Adam and Eve in every day in the cool of the and Eve in every day in the cool of the and Eve in every day in the cool of the evening breeze. The Hebrew word for walk evening breeze. The Hebrew word for walk evening breeze. The Hebrew word for walk has no destination in mind. This was a has no destination in mind. This was a has no destination in mind. This was a leisurely walk. A stroll. A stroll. And leisurely walk. A stroll. A stroll. And leisurely walk. A stroll. A stroll. And the cool of the evening breeze would the cool of the evening breeze would the cool of the evening breeze would identify that this is at the end of the identify that this is at the end of the identify that this is at the end of the day. Well, why is this important?

day. Well, why is this important? day. Well, why is this important? Because it reminds us that um, Adam and Because it reminds us that um, Adam and Because it reminds us that um, Adam and Eve had vocation. Eve had vocation. Eve had vocation. They They were not like sitting around They They were not like sitting around They They were not like sitting around lounging in the garden doing nothing. lounging in the garden doing nothing. lounging in the garden doing nothing. They were to name the animals. They were They were to name the animals. They were They were to name the animals. They were to cultivate, to guard. They had this to cultivate, to guard. They had this to cultivate, to guard. They had this the holy royal task and vocation. So, the holy royal task and vocation. So, the holy royal task and vocation. So, what does God do with Adam and Eve in what does God do with Adam and Eve in what does God do with Adam and Eve in the evening? Well, what do I do with my the evening? Well, what do I do with my the evening? Well, what do I do with my wife in the evening as I'm going on a wife in the evening as I'm going on a wife in the evening as I'm going on a walk? We process life. We talk. We're walk? We process life. We talk. We're walk? We process life. We talk. We're navigating things with our kids, right? navigating things with our kids, right? navigating things with our kids, right? And I always [snorts] wonder like it's And I always [snorts] wonder like it's And I always [snorts] wonder like it's kind of like a funny joke I'll think kind of like a funny joke I'll think kind of like a funny joke I'll think about sometimes with Adam and Eve. Maybe about sometimes with Adam and Eve. Maybe about sometimes with Adam and Eve. Maybe they get into a debate on naming one of they get into a debate on naming one of they get into a debate on naming one of the animals, you know? And there's like the animals, you know? And there's like the animals, you know? And there's like these two animals both four-legged, long these two animals both four-legged, long these two animals both four-legged, long tails, massive teeth, and one has a big tails, massive teeth, and one has a big tails, massive teeth, and one has a big old mane, and the other one no mane but old mane, and the other one no mane but old mane, and the other one no mane but stripes. And so Adam's like, "The one stripes. And so Adam's like, "The one stripes. And so Adam's like, "The one with the mane is a lion, absolutely. The with the mane is a lion, absolutely. The with the mane is a lion, absolutely. The one with um the stripes, um, maybe we one with um the stripes, um, maybe we one with um the stripes, um, maybe we call that elephant." And Eve's like, call that elephant." And Eve's like, call that elephant." And Eve's like, "The one with common sense. Like, no, "The one with common sense. Like, no, "The one with common sense. Like, no, absolutely not. Like, elephant is not absolutely not. Like, elephant is not absolutely not. Like, elephant is not the right name for that." And then they the right name for that." And then they the right name for that." And then they go like, "Oh, do you feel that? It's the go like, "Oh, do you feel that? It's the go like, "Oh, do you feel that? It's the cool of the evening breeze. Yahweh's on cool of the evening breeze. Yahweh's on cool of the evening breeze. Yahweh's on his way." And they go on a walk. And his way." And they go on a walk. And his way." And they go on a walk. And then Adam's like, "Hey, Eve and I have then Adam's like, "Hey, Eve and I have then Adam's like, "Hey, Eve and I have this debate." And it's like, you know, this debate." And it's like, you know, this debate." And it's like, you know, here's the situation. And we're thinking here's the situation. And we're thinking here's the situation. And we're thinking this one with the stripes we should call this one with the stripes we should call this one with the stripes we should call a um a um a um elephant. And Yahweh goes, "Hmm. Have elephant. And Yahweh goes, "Hmm. Have elephant. And Yahweh goes, "Hmm. Have you [clears throat] ever thought about you [clears throat] ever thought about you [clears throat] ever thought about that big old animal in the corner of that big old animal in the corner of that big old animal in the corner of Eden that has the big tusks and the Eden that has the big tusks and the Eden that has the big tusks and the massive trunk?"

massive trunk?" massive trunk?" Uh and they go, "Oh!" Uh and they go, "Oh!" Uh and they go, "Oh!" >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> "That That's elephant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> "That That's elephant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> "That That's elephant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we'll call the one with the stripes So, we'll call the one with the stripes So, we'll call the one with the stripes tiger, right?" So, all of this I'm tiger, right?" So, all of this I'm tiger, right?" So, all of this I'm drawing it out of this a funny story. drawing it out of this a funny story. drawing it out of this a funny story. Obviously, it's not in the biblical Obviously, it's not in the biblical Obviously, it's not in the biblical text. You know, if I do a children's text. You know, if I do a children's text. You know, if I do a children's book one day, that'll be part of the book one day, that'll be part of the book one day, that'll be part of the children's book. That'll be a fine one. children's book. That'll be a fine one. children's book. That'll be a fine one. But, you know, but the point is what do But, you know, but the point is what do But, you know, but the point is what do Adam and Eve do with Yahweh? They're Adam and Eve do with Yahweh? They're Adam and Eve do with Yahweh? They're actually growing in knowledge and actually growing in knowledge and actually growing in knowledge and wisdom. wisdom. wisdom. The issue for them is not if they're The issue for them is not if they're The issue for them is not if they're going to grow in knowledge and wisdom. going to grow in knowledge and wisdom. going to grow in knowledge and wisdom. The issue is how they're going to grow The issue is how they're going to grow The issue is how they're going to grow in knowledge and wisdom. The serpent in knowledge and wisdom. The serpent in knowledge and wisdom. The serpent suggests that you can grow in knowledge suggests that you can grow in knowledge suggests that you can grow in knowledge and wisdom separate and distanced from and wisdom separate and distanced from and wisdom separate and distanced from God. And you can And the problem with God. And you can And the problem with God. And you can And the problem with them is they get all of this knowledge them is they get all of this knowledge them is they get all of this knowledge and they have no discernment along the and they have no discernment along the and they have no discernment along the way. They have no way to process They're way. They have no way to process They're way. They have no way to process They're They're buried in the in the weight of They're buried in the in the weight of They're buried in the in the weight of it. It actually destroys them. And so, it. It actually destroys them. And so, it. It actually destroys them. And so, it's this see, it's this desire, and it's this see, it's this desire, and it's this see, it's this desire, and then Eve takes of the fruit for herself. then Eve takes of the fruit for herself. then Eve takes of the fruit for herself. The same thing happens in Genesis 6. The same thing happens in Genesis 6. The same thing happens in Genesis 6. These um angelic beings, the sons of These um angelic beings, the sons of These um angelic beings, the sons of God, the Hebrew phrase bene ha Elohim is God, the Hebrew phrase bene ha Elohim is God, the Hebrew phrase bene ha Elohim is used. We want to take the clear passages used. We want to take the clear passages used. We want to take the clear passages of scripture to interpret the obscure of scripture to interpret the obscure of scripture to interpret the obscure passages of scripture. Debate a honest passages of scripture. Debate a honest passages of scripture. Debate a honest debate on this theologically. Um there's debate on this theologically. Um there's debate on this theologically. Um there's valid reasons to uh potentially hold a valid reasons to uh potentially hold a valid reasons to uh potentially hold a human reading of sons of God in Genesis human reading of sons of God in Genesis human reading of sons of God in Genesis 6. It's called the Sethite view. I think 6. It's called the Sethite view. I think 6. It's called the Sethite view. I think that this is incongruent. I don't hold that this is incongruent. I don't hold that this is incongruent. I don't hold to this view because uh you never find to this view because uh you never find to this view because uh you never find the phrase bene ha Elohim uh associated the phrase bene ha Elohim uh associated the phrase bene ha Elohim uh associated with the Sethites or the godly line of with the Sethites or the godly line of with the Sethites or the godly line of Seth. Uh you never find the daughters of Seth. Uh you never find the daughters of Seth. Uh you never find the daughters of man being connected to the ungodly line man being connected to the ungodly line man being connected to the ungodly line of Cain. Um and uh you know, there's

of Cain. Um and uh you know, there's of Cain. Um and uh you know, there's also other issues that are there. But, also other issues that are there. But, also other issues that are there. But, you do find clearly the phrase bene ha you do find clearly the phrase bene ha you do find clearly the phrase bene ha Elohim in Job 1, in Job 2, and in Job Elohim in Job 1, in Job 2, and in Job Elohim in Job 1, in Job 2, and in Job 38. And in each of those scenes, they're 38. And in each of those scenes, they're 38. And in each of those scenes, they're angelic beings. It's a divine council angelic beings. It's a divine council angelic beings. It's a divine council scene. Right? Job 38 actually makes it scene. Right? Job 38 actually makes it scene. Right? Job 38 actually makes it explicit. Where were you when the explicit. Where were you when the explicit. Where were you when the morning stars um you know, saying uh and morning stars um you know, saying uh and morning stars um you know, saying uh and the uh sons of God shouted for joy. So, the uh sons of God shouted for joy. So, the uh sons of God shouted for joy. So, with a clear reading we'd go read back with a clear reading we'd go read back with a clear reading we'd go read back and go, "Okay, what did the sons of God and go, "Okay, what did the sons of God and go, "Okay, what did the sons of God do?" do?" do?" They see the daughters of man. They see the daughters of man. They see the daughters of man. They desire the daughters of man. And They desire the daughters of man. And They desire the daughters of man. And they take the daughters of man. In fact, they take the daughters of man. In fact, they take the daughters of man. In fact, there's there's there's >> That weird passage, right? With the >> That weird passage, right? With the >> That weird passage, right? With the Nephilim. Yeah, yeah. There's the that Nephilim. Yeah, yeah. There's the that Nephilim. Yeah, yeah. There's the that and that the the production is the and that the the production is the and that the the production is the Nephilim. Um which again is another Nephilim. Um which again is another Nephilim. Um which again is another issue. How do human men and human women issue. How do human men and human women issue. How do human men and human women produce offspring that are like massive produce offspring that are like massive produce offspring that are like massive giants, right? Like that kind of is giants, right? Like that kind of is giants, right? Like that kind of is incoherent. But, we can get into that Uh incoherent. But, we can get into that Uh incoherent. But, we can get into that Uh and then the the last one David and and then the the last one David and and then the the last one David and Bathsheba. David when when he was Bathsheba. David when when he was Bathsheba. David when when he was supposed to be out to war. Uh this I'm supposed to be out to war. Uh this I'm supposed to be out to war. Uh this I'm just doing the lexical connection of just doing the lexical connection of just doing the lexical connection of that phrase see desire take. Um you have that phrase see desire take. Um you have that phrase see desire take. Um you have it conceptually in Genesis 11, but it's it conceptually in Genesis 11, but it's it conceptually in Genesis 11, but it's explicit in the story of David and explicit in the story of David and explicit in the story of David and Bathsheba. Uh David was supposed to go Bathsheba. Uh David was supposed to go Bathsheba. Uh David was supposed to go out to war, didn't go out to war.

out to war, didn't go out to war. out to war, didn't go out to war. Instead, he sees Bathsheba. He desires Instead, he sees Bathsheba. He desires Instead, he sees Bathsheba. He desires her. And he takes her. her. And he takes her. her. And he takes her. >> Takes. So, what is spiritual warfare? >> Takes. So, what is spiritual warfare? >> Takes. So, what is spiritual warfare? So, spiritual warfare happens right here So, spiritual warfare happens right here So, spiritual warfare happens right here in between the desire and the take. And in between the desire and the take. And in between the desire and the take. And I want to take it all the way back to I want to take it all the way back to I want to take it all the way back to the algorithm. The dark forces of this the algorithm. The dark forces of this the algorithm. The dark forces of this world world world are experts in mass marketing sin. are experts in mass marketing sin. are experts in mass marketing sin. The The dark forces of this world are The The dark forces of this world are The The dark forces of this world are experts in mass marketing sin. We have experts in mass marketing sin. We have experts in mass marketing sin. We have to be really careful that we don't to be really careful that we don't to be really careful that we don't correlate the the incommunicable correlate the the incommunicable correlate the the incommunicable attributes of God with the these dark attributes of God with the these dark attributes of God with the these dark powers. God uniquely is omniscient, powers. God uniquely is omniscient, powers. God uniquely is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. Like, he's omnipresent, omnipotent. Like, he's omnipresent, omnipotent. Like, he's all-knowing, all-powerful, and all all-knowing, all-powerful, and all all-knowing, all-powerful, and all places. The dark powers, these spiritual places. The dark powers, these spiritual places. The dark powers, these spiritual beings that have fallen in rebellion, beings that have fallen in rebellion, beings that have fallen in rebellion, are limited beings. They're limited in are limited beings. They're limited in are limited beings. They're limited in um their time. They're limited in their um their time. They're limited in their um their time. They're limited in their space. They're limited even in their space. They're limited even in their space. They're limited even in their power. And so, we have to be careful we power. And so, we have to be careful we power. And so, we have to be careful we don't conflate the two. So, with that, don't conflate the two. So, with that, don't conflate the two. So, with that, how are the dark powers going to work? how are the dark powers going to work? how are the dark powers going to work? They love working in systems and They love working in systems and They love working in systems and structures.

structures. structures. And I truly do believe that the social And I truly do believe that the social And I truly do believe that the social media world that we live in is one of media world that we live in is one of media world that we live in is one of those examples of something that is those examples of something that is those examples of something that is neutral. Technology, I think, is a neutral. Technology, I think, is a neutral. Technology, I think, is a neutral thing. But, anything neutral neutral thing. But, anything neutral neutral thing. But, anything neutral that becomes ultimate is always that becomes ultimate is always that becomes ultimate is always idolatrous. Anything neutral that idolatrous. Anything neutral that idolatrous. Anything neutral that becomes an ultimate longing and desire becomes an ultimate longing and desire becomes an ultimate longing and desire always becomes idolatrous for us. And always becomes idolatrous for us. And always becomes idolatrous for us. And so, here's the enemy coming in and And so, here's the enemy coming in and And so, here's the enemy coming in and And Carrie, I've been thinking a lot about Carrie, I've been thinking a lot about Carrie, I've been thinking a lot about like even um like personal fitness and like even um like personal fitness and like even um like personal fitness and and the algorithm and what you're and the algorithm and what you're and the algorithm and what you're observing, what you're watching. And I observing, what you're watching. And I observing, what you're watching. And I really do feel like as uh society, really do feel like as uh society, really do feel like as uh society, particularly as Christians, we are that particularly as Christians, we are that particularly as Christians, we are that frog that is in the water that the bowl frog that is in the water that the bowl frog that is in the water that the bowl is on a stove. And over time the burner is on a stove. And over time the burner is on a stove. And over time the burner comes on and we're just in the water. comes on and we're just in the water. comes on and we're just in the water. Like, everything's fine, but the water's Like, everything's fine, but the water's Like, everything's fine, but the water's heating up all around us until we get heating up all around us until we get heating up all around us until we get burned alive. We're being desensitized burned alive. We're being desensitized burned alive. We're being desensitized to the climate spiritual activity that's to the climate spiritual activity that's to the climate spiritual activity that's happening all around us. And so, you happening all around us. And so, you happening all around us. And so, you look at your algorithms and you look at look at your algorithms and you look at look at your algorithms and you look at fitness and you look at the ideal human fitness and you look at the ideal human fitness and you look at the ideal human body, and that becomes this idolatrous body, and that becomes this idolatrous body, and that becomes this idolatrous thing. And And but notice there's a thing. And And but notice there's a thing. And And but notice there's a aspect to this that's actually really aspect to this that's actually really aspect to this that's actually really good. Should we care for our bodies?

good. Should we care for our bodies? good. Should we care for our bodies? Absolutely. Should we have good health? Absolutely. Should we have good health? Absolutely. Should we have good health? You bet. Should we care about our bodies You bet. Should we care about our bodies You bet. Should we care about our bodies as the temple of God? You Yes. But, as the temple of God? You Yes. But, as the temple of God? You Yes. But, there's a shift that happens where it there's a shift that happens where it there's a shift that happens where it becomes something that we do to honor becomes something that we do to honor becomes something that we do to honor the Lord where it becomes something the Lord where it becomes something the Lord where it becomes something obsessive that we do in selfishness and obsessive that we do in selfishness and obsessive that we do in selfishness and self-gratitude for for for our own self-gratitude for for for our own self-gratitude for for for our own means. I have this thing about CrossFit, means. I have this thing about CrossFit, means. I have this thing about CrossFit, you know, in the gym where I want uh you know, in the gym where I want uh you know, in the gym where I want uh somebody to do a PhD study uh a somebody to do a PhD study uh a somebody to do a PhD study uh a dissertation on the rise of infidelity dissertation on the rise of infidelity dissertation on the rise of infidelity and divorce as uh CrossFit and kind of and divorce as uh CrossFit and kind of and divorce as uh CrossFit and kind of physical fitness became a cultural fad. physical fitness became a cultural fad. physical fitness became a cultural fad. So, I think what ended up happening is So, I think what ended up happening is So, I think what ended up happening is you have individuals that end up finding you have individuals that end up finding you have individuals that end up finding true community, that's great. But, true community, that's great. But, true community, that's great. But, they're having uh authentic community they're having uh authentic community they're having uh authentic community and connections in a place that is and connections in a place that is and connections in a place that is distinct and desperate or disparate like distinct and desperate or disparate like distinct and desperate or disparate like apart from their spouse. apart from their spouse. apart from their spouse. And so, now you go to this place to find And so, now you go to this place to find And so, now you go to this place to find alternative counterfeit kind of alternative counterfeit kind of alternative counterfeit kind of community. And she's hot. And she looks community. And she's hot. And she looks community. And she's hot. And she looks She's hot. She's you know, and we're She's hot. She's you know, and we're She's hot. She's you know, and we're talking and we have something in common. talking and we have something in common. talking and we have something in common. And And my wife, like, she never wants And And my wife, like, she never wants And And my wife, like, she never wants to do these kinds of things. Or, you to do these kinds of things. Or, you to do these kinds of things. Or, you know, or a woman comes in and is like, know, or a woman comes in and is like, know, or a woman comes in and is like, "Man, this dude's hot. Like, you know, "Man, this dude's hot. Like, you know, "Man, this dude's hot. Like, you know, he's over here working and and and he's over here working and and and he's over here working and and and working out and and wants to talk to me working out and and wants to talk to me working out and and wants to talk to me and listens to me when I you know?" And and listens to me when I you know?" And and listens to me when I you know?" And so, it's like, "Man, these are areas the so, it's like, "Man, these are areas the so, it's like, "Man, these are areas the enemy loves to mass market sin, you enemy loves to mass market sin, you enemy loves to mass market sin, you know?" I was at a college campus once um know?" I was at a college campus once um know?" I was at a college campus once um and I was doing this breakout.

and I was doing this breakout. and I was doing this breakout. And Carrie, you're going to die. I'm And Carrie, you're going to die. I'm And Carrie, you're going to die. I'm doing this breakout and I do it once I doing this breakout and I do it once I doing this breakout and I do it once I do a separate breakout for the gals and do a separate breakout for the gals and do a separate breakout for the gals and different one for the guys. And you different one for the guys. And you different one for the guys. And you know, the gals are all like, "Um hey, know, the gals are all like, "Um hey, know, the gals are all like, "Um hey, we want to get married. We want to get we want to get married. We want to get we want to get married. We want to get married to godly men, you know? What married to godly men, you know? What married to godly men, you know? What should we be looking for?" And so, I should we be looking for?" And so, I should we be looking for?" And so, I usually give a couple things. I say, usually give a couple things. I say, usually give a couple things. I say, "You know, one thing, be very careful of "You know, one thing, be very careful of "You know, one thing, be very careful of the guy who is has a lot of the guy who is has a lot of the guy who is has a lot of acquaintances, but is known by no one. acquaintances, but is known by no one. acquaintances, but is known by no one. You know? Like, lots of friends all over You know? Like, lots of friends all over You know? Like, lots of friends all over the place. He's a lot of friends, but is the place. He's a lot of friends, but is the place. He's a lot of friends, but is never really truly known. Or every never really truly known. Or every never really truly known. Or every relationship is a power dynamic. Like, relationship is a power dynamic. Like, relationship is a power dynamic. Like, be careful of that one, you know? And in be careful of that one, you know? And in be careful of that one, you know? And in today's day and age, it's the question today's day and age, it's the question today's day and age, it's the question is not if you have been exposed to is not if you have been exposed to is not if you have been exposed to pornography, but like what is your pornography, but like what is your pornography, but like what is your relationship with pornography? relationship with pornography? relationship with pornography? Like, you know, at some point you're Like, you know, at some point you're Like, you know, at some point you're going to have to get get into that. with going to have to get get into that. with going to have to get get into that. with the guys, you know, it's like I'm we're the guys, you know, it's like I'm we're the guys, you know, it's like I'm we're talking and then we do some some similar talking and then we do some some similar talking and then we do some some similar things. I had one guy who raises his things. I had one guy who raises his things. I had one guy who raises his hand and says, "Hey, uh Dr. Joel, like, hand and says, "Hey, uh Dr. Joel, like, hand and says, "Hey, uh Dr. Joel, like, I just there's just no like really godly I just there's just no like really godly I just there's just no like really godly like women around here. Like, I just I'm like women around here. Like, I just I'm like women around here. Like, I just I'm really struggling." I'm like, "We're the really struggling." I'm like, "We're the really struggling." I'm like, "We're the large one of the largest campuses in large one of the largest campuses in large one of the largest campuses in in like the United States, and this is in like the United States, and this is in like the United States, and this is the wildest claim I've heard, right?"

the wildest claim I've heard, right?" the wildest claim I've heard, right?" So, I said to him, So, I said to him, So, I said to him, >> Yeah, yeah. you know, we we talk >> Yeah, yeah. you know, we we talk >> Yeah, yeah. you know, we we talk afterwards and he comes by and he's afterwards and he comes by and he's afterwards and he comes by and he's like, "I'm just really struggling." I like, "I'm just really struggling." I like, "I'm just really struggling." I said, "Hey, man, do you mind doing said, "Hey, man, do you mind doing said, "Hey, man, do you mind doing something for me?" He goes, "Yeah, yeah, something for me?" He goes, "Yeah, yeah, something for me?" He goes, "Yeah, yeah, absolutely." And I was like, "This is absolutely." And I was like, "This is absolutely." And I was like, "This is going to cost something." He's like, going to cost something." He's like, going to cost something." He's like, "Yeah." I was like, "You mind if um you "Yeah." I was like, "You mind if um you "Yeah." I was like, "You mind if um you open up your Instagram and show me your open up your Instagram and show me your open up your Instagram and show me your Instagram home page?" "Yeah, yeah, Instagram home page?" "Yeah, yeah, Instagram home page?" "Yeah, yeah, absolutely." absolutely." absolutely." Opens up the Instagram home page. And Opens up the Instagram home page. And Opens up the Instagram home page. And Carrie, it was like, Carrie, it was like, Carrie, it was like, um model after supermodel after like um model after supermodel after like um model after supermodel after like Christian influencer celebrity who's Christian influencer celebrity who's Christian influencer celebrity who's basically a supermodel. Like, you basically a supermodel. Like, you basically a supermodel. Like, you [laughter] know, like going on. And And [laughter] know, like going on. And And [laughter] know, like going on. And And I'm looking and I go, I'm looking and I go, I'm looking and I go, "Hey, man, your brain has been hardwired "Hey, man, your brain has been hardwired "Hey, man, your brain has been hardwired now to believe something about what now to believe something about what now to believe something about what womanhood and femininity looks like. And womanhood and femininity looks like. And womanhood and femininity looks like. And um it's actually And so, um it's actually And so, um it's actually And so, the enemy loves to mass market sin. the enemy loves to mass market sin. the enemy loves to mass market sin. Yeah. And so, now you've got an Yeah. And so, now you've got an Yeah. And so, now you've got an algorithm that's feeding you, this is algorithm that's feeding you, this is algorithm that's feeding you, this is what the perfect woman looks like. This what the perfect woman looks like. This what the perfect woman looks like. This is what um you should expect. This is is what um you should expect. This is is what um you should expect. This is what sex should look like. This is what what sex should look like. This is what what sex should look like. This is what intimacy should look like. And um often intimacy should look like. And um often intimacy should look like. And um often in the conversation of spiritual in the conversation of spiritual in the conversation of spiritual warfare, Carrie, that's it's the I like warfare, Carrie, that's it's the I like warfare, Carrie, that's it's the I like to distinguish between normative and to distinguish between normative and to distinguish between normative and non-normative. So, there's exorcisms and non-normative. So, there's exorcisms and non-normative. So, there's exorcisms and demon possessions, and I believe in that demon possessions, and I believe in that demon possessions, and I believe in that all this stuff happens, absolutely. I've all this stuff happens, absolutely. I've all this stuff happens, absolutely. I've seen some of this in India, you know?

seen some of this in India, you know? seen some of this in India, you know? But I don't think we ought to miss the But I don't think we ought to miss the But I don't think we ought to miss the normative ways the enemy is working. normative ways the enemy is working. normative ways the enemy is working. It's in these small subtle ways that the It's in these small subtle ways that the It's in these small subtle ways that the enemy is presenting to us, "See? enemy is presenting to us, "See? enemy is presenting to us, "See? It's good. Desire it? Absolutely. And It's good. Desire it? Absolutely. And It's good. Desire it? Absolutely. And then you have to take for yourself." The then you have to take for yourself." The then you have to take for yourself." The response to the see, desire, take, this response to the see, desire, take, this response to the see, desire, take, this is what the Holy Spirit does for us, is is what the Holy Spirit does for us, is is what the Holy Spirit does for us, is we learn to see, we desire that's we learn to see, we desire that's we learn to see, we desire that's honest, but instead of taking of our own honest, but instead of taking of our own honest, but instead of taking of our own will, we sit back and we learn to will, we sit back and we learn to will, we sit back and we learn to receive what the Lord gives us. receive what the Lord gives us. receive what the Lord gives us. We learn to steward what God gives us We learn to steward what God gives us We learn to steward what God gives us instead of trying to take control of instead of trying to take control of instead of trying to take control of this thing for ourselves. And so, um I this thing for ourselves. And so, um I this thing for ourselves. And so, um I think there's a lot of pastors who are think there's a lot of pastors who are think there's a lot of pastors who are pastoring congregations that are pastoring congregations that are pastoring congregations that are absolutely inundated with the next absolutely inundated with the next absolutely inundated with the next thing. The see this thing, the desire thing. The see this thing, the desire thing. The see this thing, the desire this thing, and take this thing. And at this thing, and take this thing. And at this thing, and take this thing. And at the end of it they're becoming empty, the end of it they're becoming empty, the end of it they're becoming empty, they're becoming more lonely, there's they're becoming more lonely, there's they're becoming more lonely, there's higher levels of anxiety, uh there's no higher levels of anxiety, uh there's no higher levels of anxiety, uh there's no there's no fulfillment, you know? Uh and there's no fulfillment, you know? Uh and there's no fulfillment, you know? Uh and it's like, "Well, of course. These are it's like, "Well, of course. These are it's like, "Well, of course. These are all tactics of the enemy to keep you all tactics of the enemy to keep you all tactics of the enemy to keep you disconnected from God, keep you disconnected from God, keep you disconnected from God, keep you disconnected from his word."

disconnected from his word." disconnected from his word." Finding true community in the family of Finding true community in the family of Finding true community in the family of God, the household of God, like the God, the household of God, like the God, the household of God, like the church is God's plan A, you know? Like church is God's plan A, you know? Like church is God's plan A, you know? Like there is no plan B. In fact, in there is no plan B. In fact, in there is no plan B. In fact, in Ephesians it says that the dark powers Ephesians it says that the dark powers Ephesians it says that the dark powers like it's it's the presence of the like it's it's the presence of the like it's it's the presence of the manifold wisdom of the church that manifold wisdom of the church that manifold wisdom of the church that alerts the dark powers to their demise, alerts the dark powers to their demise, alerts the dark powers to their demise, you know? That that lets them know that you know? That that lets them know that you know? That that lets them know that they've been defeated. And so it's like, they've been defeated. And so it's like, they've been defeated. And so it's like, "Wait a minute. We should care about "Wait a minute. We should care about "Wait a minute. We should care about this and we should be aware of it and we this and we should be aware of it and we this and we should be aware of it and we ought to preach and teach and disciple ought to preach and teach and disciple ought to preach and teach and disciple not if spiritual warfare is happening, not if spiritual warfare is happening, not if spiritual warfare is happening, but like it is happening and we're all a but like it is happening and we're all a but like it is happening and we're all a part of it and the unseen battle always part of it and the unseen battle always part of it and the unseen battle always has a prize. Like every battle in human has a prize. Like every battle in human has a prize. Like every battle in human history has always had a prize. So, what history has always had a prize. So, what history has always had a prize. So, what is the prize for this cosmic war that is the prize for this cosmic war that is the prize for this cosmic war that you and I are a part of? The prize has you and I are a part of? The prize has you and I are a part of? The prize has been, is, and always will be about the been, is, and always will be about the been, is, and always will be about the people made in the likeness and the people made in the likeness and the people made in the likeness and the image of God. image of God. image of God. Mhm. So, we're the prize for the enemy. Mhm. So, we're the prize for the enemy. Mhm. So, we're the prize for the enemy. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, that see, desire, Interesting. Yeah, that see, desire, Interesting. Yeah, that see, desire, take. If you think about the big three take. If you think about the big three take. If you think about the big three and I, you know, my my take is Satan and I, you know, my my take is Satan and I, you know, my my take is Satan doesn't need to be creative because we doesn't need to be creative because we doesn't need to be creative because we keep falling for the same stuff. 100%.

keep falling for the same stuff. 100%. keep falling for the same stuff. 100%. Sex, money, power. Sex, money, power. Sex, money, power. >> Ancient vices packaged in new beautiful >> Ancient vices packaged in new beautiful >> Ancient vices packaged in new beautiful packaging. Sex, money, power. It's all packaging. Sex, money, power. It's all packaging. Sex, money, power. It's all see, desire, take. And when I read my see, desire, take. And when I read my see, desire, take. And when I read my inbox and it's just filled with stories inbox and it's just filled with stories inbox and it's just filled with stories of of of pastors, leaders who who saw, desired, pastors, leaders who who saw, desired, pastors, leaders who who saw, desired, and took sexually, but also sometimes and took sexually, but also sometimes and took sexually, but also sometimes financially. Often it's in power. financially. Often it's in power. financially. Often it's in power. Like you say that insatiable need for Like you say that insatiable need for Like you say that insatiable need for more. more. more. And I remind myself almost on a daily And I remind myself almost on a daily And I remind myself almost on a daily basis, "Godliness with contentment is basis, "Godliness with contentment is basis, "Godliness with contentment is great gain." Mhm. Like cuz there's a great gain." Mhm. Like cuz there's a great gain." Mhm. Like cuz there's a part of me that is wired to just want part of me that is wired to just want part of me that is wired to just want more. More downloads, more guests, more more. More downloads, more guests, more more. More downloads, more guests, more this, more that. I'm like, "Godliness this, more that. I'm like, "Godliness this, more that. I'm like, "Godliness with contentment is great gain." And it with contentment is great gain." And it with contentment is great gain." And it doesn't mean you you lose the ambition, doesn't mean you you lose the ambition, doesn't mean you you lose the ambition, you lose the desire, you lose the the you lose the desire, you lose the the you lose the desire, you lose the the the the the goal of serving, but it's a the the the goal of serving, but it's a the the the goal of serving, but it's a purification of motives. So, when you purification of motives. So, when you purification of motives. So, when you think about the unseen battle, I want to think about the unseen battle, I want to think about the unseen battle, I want to get to the Nephilim, but um what like get to the Nephilim, but um what like get to the Nephilim, but um what like how is this showing up in the church how is this showing up in the church how is this showing up in the church today? Where where do you with the the today? Where where do you with the the today? Where where do you with the the the the the you know, the battle you know, the battle you know, the battle how's it showing up in congregations?

how's it showing up in congregations? how's it showing up in congregations? Yeah, I mean I think we discussed a Yeah, I mean I think we discussed a Yeah, I mean I think we discussed a bunch of them, but I think it is in um bunch of them, but I think it is in um bunch of them, but I think it is in um sexual sin. Um I think it is in um uh a sexual sin. Um I think it is in um uh a sexual sin. Um I think it is in um uh a desire to kind of like uh what is that desire to kind of like uh what is that desire to kind of like uh what is that the keep up with the Joneses? Is that the keep up with the Joneses? Is that the keep up with the Joneses? Is that right? Or the That's like the It's it's right? Or the That's like the It's it's right? Or the That's like the It's it's that whole thing like the nothing is that whole thing like the nothing is that whole thing like the nothing is ever good enough. There's always ever good enough. There's always ever good enough. There's always something more that that that we can something more that that that we can something more that that that we can have, you know? Um the other really big have, you know? Um the other really big have, you know? Um the other really big one, Carey, that I'm seeing today is one, Carey, that I'm seeing today is one, Carey, that I'm seeing today is political ideology. political ideology. political ideology. Uh like like we're living in a It's Uh like like we're living in a It's Uh like like we're living in a It's become a god. It has become a god. It become a god. It has become a god. It become a god. It has become a god. It has become and I really do think that has become and I really do think that has become and I really do think that part of spiritual warfare for us and for part of spiritual warfare for us and for part of spiritual warfare for us and for pastors is reminding people of ordered pastors is reminding people of ordered pastors is reminding people of ordered loves and ordered ordered allegiances. loves and ordered ordered allegiances. loves and ordered ordered allegiances. Yeah. Right now we have disordered loves Yeah. Right now we have disordered loves Yeah. Right now we have disordered loves and we have disordered allegiances. And and we have disordered allegiances. And and we have disordered allegiances. And the enemy wants to take lesser loves and the enemy wants to take lesser loves and the enemy wants to take lesser loves and make them ultimate. You you probably make them ultimate. You you probably make them ultimate. You you probably know the origin of that. Keller talked a know the origin of that. Keller talked a know the origin of that. Keller talked a lot about disordered loves. I think it lot about disordered loves. I think it lot about disordered loves. I think it was the 18th century theologian Thomas was the 18th century theologian Thomas was the 18th century theologian Thomas Chalmers talked about disordered loves Chalmers talked about disordered loves Chalmers talked about disordered loves and the and the and the the the the power of a what is it? The the the the power of a what is it? The the the the power of a what is it? The displacing power of a new affection or displacing power of a new affection or displacing power of a new affection or something like that. But where where something like that. But where where something like that. But where where does that idea trace itself back to?

does that idea trace itself back to? does that idea trace itself back to? Disordered Disordered Disordered >> So, the where the place that I go, >> So, the where the place that I go, >> So, the where the place that I go, there's a brilliant modern theologian, there's a brilliant modern theologian, there's a brilliant modern theologian, his name is James K. Smith. I'm sure you his name is James K. Smith. I'm sure you his name is James K. Smith. I'm sure you know of James. Yeah. Yeah. I've got some know of James. Yeah. Yeah. I've got some know of James. Yeah. Yeah. I've got some of his books. Have not Oh my gosh, he's of his books. Have not Oh my gosh, he's of his books. Have not Oh my gosh, he's so great. And he actually uses an so great. And he actually uses an so great. And he actually uses an illustration and I've used that illustration and I've used that illustration and I've used that illustration often now. Um but really I illustration often now. Um but really I illustration often now. Um but really I think where James gets it from, where think where James gets it from, where think where James gets it from, where Keller got it from from, you know, even Keller got it from from, you know, even Keller got it from from, you know, even all [clears throat] that, it actually all [clears throat] that, it actually all [clears throat] that, it actually goes back I think to Luther and Calvin goes back I think to Luther and Calvin goes back I think to Luther and Calvin with this Latin phrase homo incurvatus with this Latin phrase homo incurvatus with this Latin phrase homo incurvatus in se, which is the idea that the the in se, which is the idea that the the in se, which is the idea that the the heart is bent in upon itself. And this heart is bent in upon itself. And this heart is bent in upon itself. And this is the this is the illustration that is the this is the illustration that is the this is the illustration that James K. Smith gives and I think it's James K. Smith gives and I think it's James K. Smith gives and I think it's just so perfect. He says, "You know, the just so perfect. He says, "You know, the just so perfect. He says, "You know, the heart is a love pump. It's a love pump. heart is a love pump. It's a love pump. heart is a love pump. It's a love pump. It was always intended to pour out love. It was always intended to pour out love. It was always intended to pour out love. And the object of love that it was And the object of love that it was And the object of love that it was always intended to pour out was upon always intended to pour out was upon always intended to pour out was upon God. So, a heart pump that pours out God. So, a heart pump that pours out God. So, a heart pump that pours out love on the object of affection, which love on the object of affection, which love on the object of affection, which is God himself. The problem was at the is God himself. The problem was at the is God himself. The problem was at the fall, the love pump doesn't turn off. fall, the love pump doesn't turn off. fall, the love pump doesn't turn off. The love pump gets knocked off kilter. The love pump gets knocked off kilter. The love pump gets knocked off kilter. And now instead of pouring out love onto And now instead of pouring out love onto And now instead of pouring out love onto God, we're pouring out love onto God, we're pouring out love onto God, we're pouring out love onto ourselves. And the thing that drives ourselves. And the thing that drives ourselves. And the thing that drives what we love are these vi- the Paul what we love are these vi- the Paul what we love are these vi- the Paul talks about them as vices of the flesh, talks about them as vices of the flesh, talks about them as vices of the flesh, you know? Selfish ambition and vain you know? Selfish ambition and vain you know? Selfish ambition and vain conceit and in sexual gratification and conceit and in sexual gratification and conceit and in sexual gratification and power and pride and, you know, and then power and pride and, you know, and then power and pride and, you know, and then the the hardest some ones, you know, the the hardest some ones, you know, the the hardest some ones, you know, Paul says this to Timothy, is like Paul says this to Timothy, is like Paul says this to Timothy, is like sometimes it has the appearance of sometimes it has the appearance of sometimes it has the appearance of godliness. Like like it even looks godly godliness. Like like it even looks godly godliness. Like like it even looks godly and denies and denies and denies >> Welcome to ministry, man. Welcome to >> Welcome to ministry, man. Welcome to >> Welcome to ministry, man. Welcome to ministry. Yeah. And so I think that the ministry. Yeah. And so I think that the ministry. Yeah. And so I think that the origin comes there from disordered loves

origin comes there from disordered loves origin comes there from disordered loves and then the disordered allegiance idea and then the disordered allegiance idea and then the disordered allegiance idea comes directly from Paul in the New comes directly from Paul in the New comes directly from Paul in the New Testament where, you know, it's Testament where, you know, it's Testament where, you know, it's Colossians 1:13. This is again spiritual Colossians 1:13. This is again spiritual Colossians 1:13. This is again spiritual warfare language. You and I were warfare language. You and I were warfare language. You and I were transferred from the domain of darkness transferred from the domain of darkness transferred from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of light. Yeah. into the kingdom of light. Yeah. into the kingdom of light. Yeah. Transferred. That word dominion in Greek Transferred. That word dominion in Greek Transferred. That word dominion in Greek it has in mind dark powers. The Paul's it has in mind dark powers. The Paul's it has in mind dark powers. The Paul's language of dark powers related to the language of dark powers related to the language of dark powers related to the sons of God of the Old Testament and I sons of God of the Old Testament and I sons of God of the Old Testament and I get into all this and so much more in get into all this and so much more in get into all this and so much more in the unseen battle is the unseen battle is the unseen battle is powers, authorities, dominions, thrones, powers, authorities, dominions, thrones, powers, authorities, dominions, thrones, elemental spirits. It's arche exousia, elemental spirits. It's arche exousia, elemental spirits. It's arche exousia, dunamis, dunamis, dunamis, stoicheia are these kind of Greek terms. stoicheia are these kind of Greek terms. stoicheia are these kind of Greek terms. And when Paul uses them, he's using them And when Paul uses them, he's using them And when Paul uses them, he's using them to describe dark powers. Um and so what to describe dark powers. Um and so what to describe dark powers. Um and so what ends up happening is ends up happening is ends up happening is there is this affection for political there is this affection for political there is this affection for political power and often it comes from a good power and often it comes from a good power and often it comes from a good place. I'm like, "Man, I want safety. I place. I'm like, "Man, I want safety. I place. I'm like, "Man, I want safety. I want security. I want our land to be want security. I want our land to be want security. I want our land to be protected. I want our families to be to protected. I want our families to be to protected. I want our families to be to feel safe." And yet what I find feel safe." And yet what I find feel safe." And yet what I find fascinating is in the first century when fascinating is in the first century when fascinating is in the first century when Paul in these first century churches Paul in these first century churches Paul in these first century churches have the opportunity to vie for have the opportunity to vie for have the opportunity to vie for political power, political power, political power, they triple down on church unity.

they triple down on church unity. they triple down on church unity. They triple down on the ecclesia, the They triple down on the ecclesia, the They triple down on the ecclesia, the the gathering of the local assembly in the gathering of the local assembly in the gathering of the local assembly in order to be a winsome witness to the order to be a winsome witness to the order to be a winsome witness to the empire, to the powers, to the empire, to the powers, to the empire, to the powers, to the city-states that they lived in in order city-states that they lived in in order city-states that they lived in in order that they might draw them, these that they might draw them, these that they might draw them, these city-states, into a saving loving city-states, into a saving loving city-states, into a saving loving knowledge of the kingdom of God in Jesus knowledge of the kingdom of God in Jesus knowledge of the kingdom of God in Jesus who is the king of heaven and earth. And who is the king of heaven and earth. And who is the king of heaven and earth. And so we live in an allegiance crisis, you so we live in an allegiance crisis, you so we live in an allegiance crisis, you know? know? know? If we say that our allegiance is If we say that our allegiance is If we say that our allegiance is primarily to King Jesus and the kingdom primarily to King Jesus and the kingdom primarily to King Jesus and the kingdom of heaven, then every other allegiance of heaven, then every other allegiance of heaven, then every other allegiance has to be ordered by that one. This is has to be ordered by that one. This is has to be ordered by that one. This is the Lord of the Rings. This is Tolkien. the Lord of the Rings. This is Tolkien. the Lord of the Rings. This is Tolkien. This is the one ring that rules them This is the one ring that rules them This is the one ring that rules them all. And we have displaced our all. And we have displaced our all. And we have displaced our allegiance and in that is actually I allegiance and in that is actually I allegiance and in that is actually I think creating chaos in our churches. think creating chaos in our churches. think creating chaos in our churches. And then to your point, what ends up And then to your point, what ends up And then to your point, what ends up happening is you have congregations that happening is you have congregations that happening is you have congregations that go, "Wait a minute. I love this go, "Wait a minute. I love this go, "Wait a minute. I love this celebrity pastor. I love this guy and celebrity pastor. I love this guy and celebrity pastor. I love this guy and he's talking about the political world he's talking about the political world he's talking about the political world and and he's saying all the things that and and he's saying all the things that and and he's saying all the things that I actually believe, but I wish my pastor I actually believe, but I wish my pastor I actually believe, but I wish my pastor would say it like like this guy." And would say it like like this guy." And would say it like like this guy." And then maybe you have, you know, church then maybe you have, you know, church then maybe you have, you know, church members that come to you after a sermon members that come to you after a sermon members that come to you after a sermon that you preach and go, "Hey, have you that you preach and go, "Hey, have you that you preach and go, "Hey, have you ever seen this pastor?" Yeah. [laughter] ever seen this pastor?" Yeah. [laughter] ever seen this pastor?" Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Hey, like what the heck Hey, like what the heck Hey, like what the heck >> taking Washington. He's taking back the >> taking Washington. He's taking back the >> taking Washington. He's taking back the state legislature. But it's that same state legislature. But it's that same state legislature. But it's that same thing with political ideology. It's see, thing with political ideology. It's see, thing with political ideology. It's see, desire, take. We are going to take desire, take. We are going to take desire, take. We are going to take this seat. We're going to take this this seat. We're going to take this this seat. We're going to take this office. We're going to take this level office. We're going to take this level office. We're going to take this level of government. I mean, it's the same of government. I mean, it's the same of government. I mean, it's the same thing. I find it fascinating um Carey in thing. I find it fascinating um Carey in thing. I find it fascinating um Carey in Revelation chapter two. Now we're Revelation chapter two. Now we're Revelation chapter two. Now we're getting deep. You're taking me all over getting deep. You're taking me all over getting deep. You're taking me all over the place in this conversation. the place in this conversation. the place in this conversation. Revelation chapter Oh, absolutely. In Revelation chapter Oh, absolutely. In Revelation chapter Oh, absolutely. In Revelation chapter two, I find it Revelation chapter two, I find it Revelation chapter two, I find it fascinating that um when John, who's fascinating that um when John, who's fascinating that um when John, who's entrapped in Patmos, he's on this island entrapped in Patmos, he's on this island entrapped in Patmos, he's on this island as he begins to um deliver the oracle of as he begins to um deliver the oracle of as he begins to um deliver the oracle of God to um to the church today, you've God to um to the church today, you've God to um to the church today, you've got these seven letters to these seven got these seven letters to these seven got these seven letters to these seven cities, right? And I find it fascinating cities, right? And I find it fascinating cities, right? And I find it fascinating that each one opens up with seven that each one opens up with seven that each one opens up with seven angels. And these seven angelic beings, angels. And these seven angelic beings, angels. And these seven angelic beings, okay? You would think that if the goal okay? You would think that if the goal okay? You would think that if the goal was political was political was political kind of power and and and prowess, like kind of power and and and prowess, like kind of power and and and prowess, like like that's where we're that's where like that's where we're that's where like that's where we're that's where like we we ought to go, you would think like we we ought to go, you would think like we we ought to go, you would think that the angels would be named the that the angels would be named the that the angels would be named the angels of Ephesus angels of Ephesus angels of Ephesus or the the angels of like you know, but or the the angels of like you know, but or the the angels of like you know, but they're not named that way. They're they're not named that way. They're they're not named that way. They're named the angel of the church named the angel of the church named the angel of the church in Ephesus. So, in other words, there is in Ephesus. So, in other words, there is in Ephesus. So, in other words, there is a local church that is in a city-state a local church that is in a city-state a local church that is in a city-state and angelic supernatural help comes not and angelic supernatural help comes not and angelic supernatural help comes not to the city-state, right? But actually to the city-state, right? But actually to the city-state, right? But actually comes to the local church that is a comes to the local church that is a comes to the local church that is a remnant that is um the um this outpost

remnant that is um the um this outpost remnant that is um the um this outpost of the inbreaking of the kingdom of God. of the inbreaking of the kingdom of God. of the inbreaking of the kingdom of God. And in fact, there are other dark powers And in fact, there are other dark powers And in fact, there are other dark powers and the dark powers are the ones that and the dark powers are the ones that and the dark powers are the ones that are in fact influencing city states. And are in fact influencing city states. And are in fact influencing city states. And you get this when Paul talks about this you get this when Paul talks about this you get this when Paul talks about this in Ephesians about powers, in Ephesians about powers, in Ephesians about powers, principalities, and authorities. In 1 principalities, and authorities. In 1 principalities, and authorities. In 1 Corinthians, he talks about how if the Corinthians, he talks about how if the Corinthians, he talks about how if the powers knew what they were doing, they powers knew what they were doing, they powers knew what they were doing, they would have never sent Jesus to the would have never sent Jesus to the would have never sent Jesus to the cross. Um cross. Um cross. Um this is played out in geopolitical this is played out in geopolitical this is played out in geopolitical terminology in Daniel chapters 9 and 10. terminology in Daniel chapters 9 and 10. terminology in Daniel chapters 9 and 10. You've got the prince of Persia and the You've got the prince of Persia and the You've got the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece fighting against this prince of Greece fighting against this prince of Greece fighting against this angelic these angelic figures who come angelic these angelic figures who come angelic these angelic figures who come to the aid of the people of God who are to the aid of the people of God who are to the aid of the people of God who are interestingly held captive in a land interestingly held captive in a land interestingly held captive in a land that is not their own. that is not their own. that is not their own. Uh you [clears throat] know, so Uh you [clears throat] know, so Uh you [clears throat] know, so I'm curious. What what then, you know, I'm curious. What what then, you know, I'm curious. What what then, you know, in your view is the right relationship in your view is the right relationship in your view is the right relationship of the church or Christians of the church or Christians of the church or Christians to power? And my position for years, and to power? And my position for years, and to power? And my position for years, and I'm in such a tiny minority on this, is I'm in such a tiny minority on this, is I'm in such a tiny minority on this, is you look at Jesus and he's like, go tell you look at Jesus and he's like, go tell you look at Jesus and he's like, go tell that fox Herod. You look at Paul, he's that fox Herod. You look at Paul, he's that fox Herod. You look at Paul, he's basically trying to convert the basically trying to convert the basically trying to convert the authorities when he has an audience with authorities when he has an audience with authorities when he has an audience with them, not like, oh, and by the way, you them, not like, oh, and by the way, you them, not like, oh, and by the way, you ought to legislate Christianity ought to legislate Christianity ought to legislate Christianity throughout the land, which is a you throughout the land, which is a you throughout the land, which is a you know, that whole Christian nationalism know, that whole Christian nationalism know, that whole Christian nationalism thing that has really surged in the last thing that has really surged in the last thing that has really surged in the last decade. It's been there for 40, 50 decade. It's been there for 40, 50 decade. It's been there for 40, 50 years, but really surged in the last years, but really surged in the last years, but really surged in the last decade.

decade. decade. I'm wondering when you look at it from a I'm wondering when you look at it from a I'm wondering when you look at it from a spiritual perspective, biblical spiritual perspective, biblical spiritual perspective, biblical perspective, New Testament scholarship perspective, New Testament scholarship perspective, New Testament scholarship perspective, what in your view is the perspective, what in your view is the perspective, what in your view is the right relationship of Christians to right relationship of Christians to right relationship of Christians to political power? political power? political power? I think the right relationship is sub- I think the right relationship is sub- I think the right relationship is sub- subversion to the powers. subversion to the powers. subversion to the powers. It's It's a sub- It's It's a sub- It's It's a sub- >> Subversion or submission? Um I I don't >> Subversion or submission? Um I I don't >> Subversion or submission? Um I I don't think it's I don't think you submit to think it's I don't think you submit to think it's I don't think you submit to the powers. I think I think it's a the powers. I think I think it's a the powers. I think I think it's a subversive relationship to the powers. subversive relationship to the powers. subversive relationship to the powers. And this is Okay, I wanted to be clear. And this is Okay, I wanted to be clear. And this is Okay, I wanted to be clear. So, what do you mean by subverse? Like a So, what do you mean by subverse? Like a So, what do you mean by subverse? Like a subversion of the powers? subversion of the powers? subversion of the powers? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um you know, the >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um you know, the >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um you know, the powers want to play to the vices of the powers want to play to the vices of the powers want to play to the vices of the flesh. And yet Jesus gives us um flesh. And yet Jesus gives us um flesh. And yet Jesus gives us um through, you know, even the Sermon on through, you know, even the Sermon on through, you know, even the Sermon on the Mount. Think about the Beatitudes. the Mount. Think about the Beatitudes. the Mount. Think about the Beatitudes. My goodness. Yeah. The Beatitudes. Uh My goodness. Yeah. The Beatitudes. Uh My goodness. Yeah. The Beatitudes. Uh you know, it starts with blessed are the you know, it starts with blessed are the you know, it starts with blessed are the Greek word is makarios there. Um I think Greek word is makarios there. Um I think Greek word is makarios there. Um I think makarios I think it's makarios. I'm makarios I think it's makarios. I'm makarios I think it's makarios. I'm sorry. The Greek word is makarios. Yeah, sorry. The Greek word is makarios. Yeah, sorry. The Greek word is makarios. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I actually think a better yeah, yeah. Um I actually think a better yeah, yeah. Um I actually think a better translation of that word is flourishing. translation of that word is flourishing. translation of that word is flourishing. I got that from Dr. John Perkins. I got that from Dr. John Perkins. I got that from Dr. John Perkins. >> Oh, yeah, cuz you get happy a lot. I'm >> Oh, yeah, cuz you get happy a lot. I'm >> Oh, yeah, cuz you get happy a lot. I'm like, what Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I don't like, what Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I don't like, what Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I don't think And I actually think contextually think And I actually think contextually think And I actually think contextually it actually makes more sense. It it actually makes more sense. It it actually makes more sense. It actually has the idea In our world actually has the idea In our world actually has the idea In our world today, blessing feels passive. We're the today, blessing feels passive. We're the today, blessing feels passive. We're the passive recipients of a divine action passive recipients of a divine action passive recipients of a divine action that we're blessed. But this word, it that we're blessed. But this word, it that we're blessed. But this word, it has in mind a flourishing because it's has in mind a flourishing because it's has in mind a flourishing because it's like a plant who is very much dependent like a plant who is very much dependent like a plant who is very much dependent on the sun and the rain, right? So, on the sun and the rain, right? So, on the sun and the rain, right? So, there's a dependency. And yet once the there's a dependency. And yet once the there's a dependency. And yet once the sun and the rain come, there is agency sun and the rain come, there is agency sun and the rain come, there is agency and responsibility that comes with it, and responsibility that comes with it, and responsibility that comes with it, which is to flourish in response to what which is to flourish in response to what which is to flourish in response to what you have been given. And so, here is the you have been given. And so, here is the you have been given. And so, here is the great king of heaven and earth who pours

great king of heaven and earth who pours great king of heaven and earth who pours out his divine blessing upon us, right? out his divine blessing upon us, right? out his divine blessing upon us, right? But it's not so we can sit back and be But it's not so we can sit back and be But it's not so we can sit back and be passive and and be monks and and run to passive and and be monks and and run to passive and and be monks and and run to the hills, right? It's so that we might the hills, right? It's so that we might the hills, right? It's so that we might flourish in the places that we are flourish in the places that we are flourish in the places that we are planted. Um blessed are the poor, planted. Um blessed are the poor, planted. Um blessed are the poor, blessed are the humble, blessed are the blessed are the humble, blessed are the blessed are the humble, blessed are the So, you have all of that. I prefer So, you have all of that. I prefer So, you have all of that. I prefer flourishing. So, um what is our response flourishing. So, um what is our response flourishing. So, um what is our response to the powers? to the powers? to the powers? Our response to the powers is to embody Our response to the powers is to embody Our response to the powers is to embody the life of Christ, the cruciform life the life of Christ, the cruciform life the life of Christ, the cruciform life that Jesus himself presented to the that Jesus himself presented to the that Jesus himself presented to the powers. powers. powers. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Jesus submits to death, to the cross, >> Jesus submits to death, to the cross, >> Jesus submits to death, to the cross, not that that has the final say, but not that that has the final say, but not that that has the final say, but that through death, through the cross, that through death, through the cross, that through death, through the cross, Jesus defeats sin and death. And then Jesus defeats sin and death. And then Jesus defeats sin and death. And then Wild, he invites you and I into his Wild, he invites you and I into his Wild, he invites you and I into his life. life. life. He invites you and I into his cruciform He invites you and I into his cruciform He invites you and I into his cruciform life. And the the the spread of life. And the the the spread of life. And the the the spread of Christianity in the 1st century was Christianity in the 1st century was Christianity in the 1st century was spread through persecution. spread through persecution. spread through persecution. It was spread through It was spread through It was spread through >> By the state. It was spread through >> By the state. It was spread through >> By the state. It was spread through individuals. Like if you study church individuals. Like if you study church individuals. Like if you study church martyrdom, right? There came a time when martyrdom, right? There came a time when martyrdom, right? There came a time when martyrdom, those that were martyred, martyrdom, those that were martyred, martyrdom, those that were martyred, Carrie, um had such high level of others Carrie, um had such high level of others Carrie, um had such high level of others who went through martyrdom but didn't who went through martyrdom but didn't who went through martyrdom but didn't die. They actually survived, right?

Those individuals, and I'm pulling on Those individuals, and I'm pulling on some church history information, those some church history information, those some church history information, those individuals, they refused to be called individuals, they refused to be called individuals, they refused to be called martyrs. martyrs. martyrs. They refused to be called martyrs They refused to be called martyrs They refused to be called martyrs because they go, no, no, no, we because they go, no, no, no, we because they go, no, no, no, we survived. We survived. Like, no, no, no. survived. We survived. Like, no, no, no. survived. We survived. Like, no, no, no. We ought to reserve this term for those We ought to reserve this term for those We ought to reserve this term for those that literally gave their life for the that literally gave their life for the that literally gave their life for the sake of the gospel. Often in front of sake of the gospel. Often in front of sake of the gospel. Often in front of the powers, in front of the Roman the powers, in front of the Roman the powers, in front of the Roman authorities, in front of the empire. authorities, in front of the empire. authorities, in front of the empire. >> marturion, I think is the original Greek >> marturion, I think is the original Greek >> marturion, I think is the original Greek word, which literally means witness. And word, which literally means witness. And word, which literally means witness. And witness became like basically if you're witness became like basically if you're witness became like basically if you're going to be a good witness, you're going to be a good witness, you're going to be a good witness, you're probably going to get killed. So, it probably going to get killed. So, it probably going to get killed. So, it became synonymous. Is that the right became synonymous. Is that the right became synonymous. Is that the right etymology for that? etymology for that? etymology for that? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And what >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And what >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And what actually ends up happening is by time actually ends up happening is by time actually ends up happening is by time you've got Constantine who comes in and you've got Constantine who comes in and you've got Constantine who comes in and the persecution decreases, monasticism the persecution decreases, monasticism the persecution decreases, monasticism increases. And so, as the monastic increases. And so, as the monastic increases. And so, as the monastic society increases, it actually kind of society increases, it actually kind of society increases, it actually kind of replaces the idea of martyrdom because replaces the idea of martyrdom because replaces the idea of martyrdom because you're not necessarily getting killed you're not necessarily getting killed you're not necessarily getting killed right and left for your faith, but you right and left for your faith, but you right and left for your faith, but you Oh, you're just going to withdraw Oh, you're just going to withdraw Oh, you're just going to withdraw Uh-huh, you nailed it. You have to have Uh-huh, you nailed it. You have to have Uh-huh, you nailed it. You have to have some level of extreme response to show some level of extreme response to show some level of extreme response to show your fidelity to Christ. And so, instead your fidelity to Christ. And so, instead your fidelity to Christ. And so, instead of withdrawing from life into that, it's of withdrawing from life into that, it's of withdrawing from life into that, it's like I'm going to withdraw from society like I'm going to withdraw from society like I'm going to withdraw from society and give my whole self off into So, but and give my whole self off into So, but and give my whole self off into So, but this is the response Mhm. of the people this is the response Mhm. of the people this is the response Mhm. of the people of God to the powers. It is Galatians 5 of God to the powers. It is Galatians 5 of God to the powers. It is Galatians 5 and the fruit of the Spirit.

and the fruit of the Spirit. and the fruit of the Spirit. The powers want us to embrace the vices The powers want us to embrace the vices The powers want us to embrace the vices of the flesh. The fruit of the Spirit of the flesh. The fruit of the Spirit of the flesh. The fruit of the Spirit says, by the way, says, by the way, says, by the way, >> We're going to use vice >> We're going to use vice >> We're going to use vice to claim to claim to claim right? To claim power. right? To claim power. right? To claim power. >> And yet the the Spirit of God leads us >> And yet the the Spirit of God leads us >> And yet the the Spirit of God leads us into the fruit of the Spirit, which is into the fruit of the Spirit, which is into the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness. You know, like goodness, gentleness. You know, like goodness, gentleness. You know, like like these things, forgiveness. Think like these things, forgiveness. Think like these things, forgiveness. Think about the spiritual power forgiveness. about the spiritual power forgiveness. about the spiritual power forgiveness. Like these things are a witness to the Like these things are a witness to the Like these things are a witness to the dark powers when they're embodied by the dark powers when they're embodied by the dark powers when they're embodied by the family of God, the household of God, family of God, the household of God, family of God, the household of God, that their defeat has been established that their defeat has been established that their defeat has been established at the cross, and their final defeat is at the cross, and their final defeat is at the cross, and their final defeat is coming as Christ comes in the coming as Christ comes in the coming as Christ comes in the consummation. And so, you and I live in consummation. And so, you and I live in consummation. And so, you and I live in this system of the already but not yet, this system of the already but not yet, this system of the already but not yet, you know? The the victory was defined at you know? The the victory was defined at you know? The the victory was defined at the cross, and yet we live in the not the cross, and yet we live in the not the cross, and yet we live in the not yet of the final consummation of yet of the final consummation of yet of the final consummation of Christ's victory. And what is our Christ's victory. And what is our Christ's victory. And what is our responsibility to the powers? We're not responsibility to the powers? We're not responsibility to the powers? We're not called to confront the powers. Like we called to confront the powers. Like we called to confront the powers. Like we find nowhere in the New Testament where find nowhere in the New Testament where find nowhere in the New Testament where you and I are called to confront the you and I are called to confront the you and I are called to confront the powers, to seek them out. You know, like powers, to seek them out. You know, like powers, to seek them out. You know, like it's Jesus in the Great Commission. You it's Jesus in the Great Commission. You it's Jesus in the Great Commission. You would think Jesus would be like, hey, go would think Jesus would be like, hey, go would think Jesus would be like, hey, go make disciples of all nations. And while make disciples of all nations. And while make disciples of all nations. And while you're in you're in you're in Samaria and Jerusalem, find those dark Samaria and Jerusalem, find those dark Samaria and Jerusalem, find those dark powers that are there and go ahead and powers that are there and go ahead and powers that are there and go ahead and give them a talent, too, right? Go give them a talent, too, right? Go give them a talent, too, right? Go ahead. Go ahead. And that's not what he ahead. Go ahead. And that's not what he ahead. Go ahead. And that's not what he says. He says, go make disciples of all says. He says, go make disciples of all says. He says, go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of nations, baptizing them in the name of nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, what is our response to the powers?

what is our response to the powers? what is our response to the powers? Wild, proclaim the gospel. Wild, proclaim the gospel. Wild, proclaim the gospel. What is our response to spiritual What is our response to spiritual What is our response to spiritual warfare? Wild, proclaim the gospel. warfare? Wild, proclaim the gospel. warfare? Wild, proclaim the gospel. And guess what? When you and I proclaim And guess what? When you and I proclaim And guess what? When you and I proclaim the good news of the risen Christ, we the good news of the risen Christ, we the good news of the risen Christ, we actually actually actually are going to deal with demonic stuff. We are going to deal with demonic stuff. We are going to deal with demonic stuff. We will deal with darkness, but the order will deal with darkness, but the order will deal with darkness, but the order matters. We don't seek after demons. We matters. We don't seek after demons. We matters. We don't seek after demons. We don't seek after the powers. We don't don't seek after the powers. We don't don't seek after the powers. We don't seek after those things. We seek after seek after those things. We seek after seek after those things. We seek after the prize. Where's the prize? Humans the prize. Where's the prize? Humans the prize. Where's the prize? Humans that bear the image and likeness of God. that bear the image and likeness of God. that bear the image and likeness of God. If the dark powers know they can never If the dark powers know they can never If the dark powers know they can never defeat the uncreated creator, what is defeat the uncreated creator, what is defeat the uncreated creator, what is the greatest way to grieve the heart of the greatest way to grieve the heart of the greatest way to grieve the heart of God? I'm a dad. I've got four kids. God? I'm a dad. I've got four kids. God? I'm a dad. I've got four kids. We've got three boys, 14, 13, and 11, We've got three boys, 14, 13, and 11, We've got three boys, 14, 13, and 11, and a little girl who's six. And we're and a little girl who's six. And we're and a little girl who's six. And we're in a season of life where we're just in a season of life where we're just in a season of life where we're just always basketball practice, lacrosse always basketball practice, lacrosse always basketball practice, lacrosse practice, all this stuff. And there's practice, all this stuff. And there's practice, all this stuff. And there's this moment at the end of the day, this moment at the end of the day, this moment at the end of the day, Carrie, where everybody is home around Carrie, where everybody is home around Carrie, where everybody is home around 9:30, right? P.M. And it's still chaotic 9:30, right? P.M. And it's still chaotic 9:30, right? P.M. And it's still chaotic in the house, and they're getting ready in the house, and they're getting ready in the house, and they're getting ready for the next day. But the heart of like for the next day. But the heart of like for the next day. But the heart of like my heart as a dad, it's so full my heart as a dad, it's so full my heart as a dad, it's so full because my family is back together.

because my family is back together. because my family is back together. How can you grieve the heart of God? How can you grieve the heart of God? How can you grieve the heart of God? You can grieve the heart of God when the You can grieve the heart of God when the You can grieve the heart of God when the family is divided, disunified, family is divided, disunified, family is divided, disunified, disconnected. And so, this is why I disconnected. And so, this is why I disconnected. And so, this is why I think the local church matters and the think the local church matters and the think the local church matters and the gospel matters and why we ought to have gospel matters and why we ought to have gospel matters and why we ought to have ordered love and ordered allegiance ordered love and ordered allegiance ordered love and ordered allegiance because disordered loves and disordered because disordered loves and disordered because disordered loves and disordered allegiances will create a compromised allegiances will create a compromised allegiances will create a compromised witness of the church in the public witness of the church in the public witness of the church in the public world. So, perhaps, I think if I'm world. So, perhaps, I think if I'm world. So, perhaps, I think if I'm following your argument right, what we following your argument right, what we following your argument right, what we have when we make politics or the taking have when we make politics or the taking have when we make politics or the taking of power or the legislative agenda as an of power or the legislative agenda as an of power or the legislative agenda as an ultimate end is a disordered affection. ultimate end is a disordered affection. ultimate end is a disordered affection. It's out of order. It's out of order. It's out of order. And it's not that we ought not to be And it's not that we ought not to be And it's not that we ought not to be interested in those things. It's not interested in those things. It's not interested in those things. It's not >> I was going to say, should our sons and >> I was going to say, should our sons and >> I was going to say, should our sons and daughters run for office? Like you want daughters run for office? Like you want daughters run for office? Like you want Christians out of So, what happens then? Christians out of So, what happens then? Christians out of So, what happens then? Like because you hear a lot of we're Like because you hear a lot of we're Like because you hear a lot of we're going to send our guy or our candidate going to send our guy or our candidate going to send our guy or our candidate to Washington. We're going to send her to Washington. We're going to send her to Washington. We're going to send her to the Senate. We're going to send him to the Senate. We're going to send him to the Senate. We're going to send him to the governor's chair, that kind of to the governor's chair, that kind of to the governor's chair, that kind of thing. Is that like What's your take on thing. Is that like What's your take on thing. Is that like What's your take on it?

it? it? Yeah, I don't know. Like I don't think Yeah, I don't know. Like I don't think Yeah, I don't know. Like I don't think that we have um um I don't think that that we have um um I don't think that that we have um um I don't think that the Bible's like, hey, here's the the Bible's like, hey, here's the the Bible's like, hey, here's the language that we need to have. And and language that we need to have. And and language that we need to have. And and the Bible actually like it's amazing. the Bible actually like it's amazing. the Bible actually like it's amazing. The 12 disciples aren't told to to then The 12 disciples aren't told to to then The 12 disciples aren't told to to then infiltrate Rome and become, you know, infiltrate Rome and become, you know, infiltrate Rome and become, you know, the next Caesar. Like that's not the the next Caesar. Like that's not the the next Caesar. Like that's not the that's not the point. that's not the point. that's not the point. >> kind of ran in the other direction, cuz >> kind of ran in the other direction, cuz >> kind of ran in the other direction, cuz They ran the other other They ran the other other They ran the other other Yeah, they were like, we're going to Yeah, they were like, we're going to Yeah, they were like, we're going to huddle in the house and share Jesus with huddle in the house and share Jesus with huddle in the house and share Jesus with people. Yeah, but you also have this people. Yeah, but you also have this people. Yeah, but you also have this sense in the Old Testament when the sense in the Old Testament when the sense in the Old Testament when the people of God are in exile that they're people of God are in exile that they're people of God are in exile that they're called to be fruitful in the land that called to be fruitful in the land that called to be fruitful in the land that they're in exile. Plant gardens, build they're in exile. Plant gardens, build they're in exile. Plant gardens, build homes, be be good stewards of the places homes, be be good stewards of the places homes, be be good stewards of the places that you're in. And so, like for me, that you're in. And so, like for me, that you're in. And so, like for me, it's like, yes, should we have it's like, yes, should we have it's like, yes, should we have Christians in the highest places of Christians in the highest places of Christians in the highest places of governance? Sure. Is our final hope governance? Sure. Is our final hope governance? Sure. Is our final hope there? Nope. there? Nope. there? Nope. Don't put your hope in princes, in in in Don't put your hope in princes, in in in Don't put your hope in princes, in in in men, in rulers, you know? Cuz they're men, in rulers, you know? Cuz they're men, in rulers, you know? Cuz they're going to fade and die. This is comes going to fade and die. This is comes going to fade and die. This is comes from one of the Psalms. Like they're from one of the Psalms. Like they're from one of the Psalms. Like they're going to fade and die just like all going to fade and die just like all going to fade and die just like all other human rulers. Like we we put our other human rulers. Like we we put our other human rulers. Like we we put our faith and our hope in the prince of faith and our hope in the prince of faith and our hope in the prince of princes, in Jesus himself. It doesn't princes, in Jesus himself. It doesn't princes, in Jesus himself. It doesn't mean that we're not responsible, that mean that we're not responsible, that mean that we're not responsible, that individuals aren't called to political individuals aren't called to political individuals aren't called to political witness. It means that wherever we're witness. It means that wherever we're witness. It means that wherever we're called to, if you're called to politics called to, if you're called to politics called to, if you're called to politics and the and the and the government or the Senate, that you government or the Senate, that you government or the Senate, that you represent faithfully King Jesus in those represent faithfully King Jesus in those represent faithfully King Jesus in those places, that you put your inward places, that you put your inward places, that you put your inward allegiance on display by your policies, allegiance on display by your policies, allegiance on display by your policies, through your words, through your through your words, through your through your words, through your witness. You know, when the political witness. You know, when the political witness. You know, when the political stream runs stream runs stream runs counterintuitive to the ways of Jesus, counterintuitive to the ways of Jesus, counterintuitive to the ways of Jesus, you be the lone voice of saying no, you be the lone voice of saying no, you be the lone voice of saying no, we're calling for high moral ground and

we're calling for high moral ground and we're calling for high moral ground and we're calling for ethics and virtues we're calling for ethics and virtues we're calling for ethics and virtues because of your personal belief in King because of your personal belief in King because of your personal belief in King Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. And so I do think that all that is there And so I do think that all that is there And so I do think that all that is there and yet we shouldn't miss that the and yet we shouldn't miss that the and yet we shouldn't miss that the primary means of healing and restoration primary means of healing and restoration primary means of healing and restoration to this world is through church. It's to this world is through church. It's to this world is through church. It's the local the local the local >> interesting. I I You know, it always >> interesting. I I You know, it always >> interesting. I I You know, it always amazes me who listens to this podcast amazes me who listens to this podcast amazes me who listens to this podcast and I don't want to give away any and I don't want to give away any and I don't want to give away any private information, but there's some private information, but there's some private information, but there's some very high-ranking government officials very high-ranking government officials very high-ranking government officials that will listen in the US who listen to that will listen in the US who listen to that will listen in the US who listen to this podcast and I've I've met with this podcast and I've I've met with this podcast and I've I've met with one or two of them privately. And you one or two of them privately. And you one or two of them privately. And you know, you see their love for Jesus and know, you see their love for Jesus and know, you see their love for Jesus and you see their angst at the system and you see their angst at the system and you see their angst at the system and what they're being asked to do at the what they're being asked to do at the what they're being asked to do at the various high highest levels of various high highest levels of various high highest levels of government. And I feel for that and what government. And I feel for that and what government. And I feel for that and what I think I hear you saying is yes, go and I think I hear you saying is yes, go and I think I hear you saying is yes, go and lobby. lobby. lobby. Bring Jesus to the capital. Bring Jesus Bring Jesus to the capital. Bring Jesus Bring Jesus to the capital. Bring Jesus to the to the to the federal government. federal government. federal government. And yet your hope is not there. It's in And yet your hope is not there. It's in And yet your hope is not there. It's in the local church. It's in the mission the local church. It's in the mission the local church. It's in the mission that this ultimately is going to subvert that this ultimately is going to subvert that this ultimately is going to subvert the national the national the national government. And I've always in my sort government. And I've always in my sort government. And I've always in my sort of voice in all of this political of voice in all of this political of voice in all of this political stuff that we've been in in the last stuff that we've been in in the last stuff that we've been in in the last decade plus in America and then to a decade plus in America and then to a decade plus in America and then to a certain extent Canada where I'm from certain extent Canada where I'm from certain extent Canada where I'm from is is is there's another way. This is not the there's another way. This is not the there's another way. This is not the system. It is not [clears throat] to system. It is not [clears throat] to system. It is not [clears throat] to redeem the system and that other way is redeem the system and that other way is redeem the system and that other way is through the mission of the local church through the mission of the local church through the mission of the local church that this culture is looking for an that this culture is looking for an that this culture is looking for an alternative to the culture, not an echo alternative to the culture, not an echo alternative to the culture, not an echo of it. That that's what we need. We need of it. That that's what we need. We need of it. That that's what we need. We need something different and that is the something different and that is the something different and that is the kingdom of God. It's not the kingdom of

kingdom of God. It's not the kingdom of kingdom of God. It's not the kingdom of this world. So very similar along those this world. So very similar along those this world. So very similar along those lines. So in terms of encouragement for lines. So in terms of encouragement for lines. So in terms of encouragement for local church pastors, I mean many are local church pastors, I mean many are local church pastors, I mean many are just outright endorsing just outright endorsing just outright endorsing candidates, telling people exactly how candidates, telling people exactly how candidates, telling people exactly how to vote. What is your counsel for them? to vote. What is your counsel for them? to vote. What is your counsel for them? My counsel is to continue the best that My counsel is to continue the best that My counsel is to continue the best that you can to discern the time and space you can to discern the time and space you can to discern the time and space that you live in. And I am not one who's that you live in. And I am not one who's that you live in. And I am not one who's going to say that this is exactly how going to say that this is exactly how going to say that this is exactly how every church pastor ought to approach every church pastor ought to approach every church pastor ought to approach politics, how to preach politics, even politics, how to preach politics, even politics, how to preach politics, even like your exegetical process, your view like your exegetical process, your view like your exegetical process, your view on Christian nationalism or not. The on Christian nationalism or not. The on Christian nationalism or not. The thing that I would just encourage you to thing that I would just encourage you to thing that I would just encourage you to do is to be faithful to the text, to be do is to be faithful to the text, to be do is to be faithful to the text, to be faithful to King Jesus. And to have some faithful to King Jesus. And to have some faithful to King Jesus. And to have some wise counsel around you that is not an wise counsel around you that is not an wise counsel around you that is not an echo chamber of yes people. Right. echo chamber of yes people. Right. echo chamber of yes people. Right. Please have wise counsel around you that Please have wise counsel around you that Please have wise counsel around you that is not an echo chamber of yes people. is not an echo chamber of yes people. is not an echo chamber of yes people. People intentionally that are going to People intentionally that are going to People intentionally that are going to push against your you know, your thought push against your you know, your thought push against your you know, your thought process on certain areas and and allow process on certain areas and and allow process on certain areas and and allow them to be some of the closest people to them to be some of the closest people to them to be some of the closest people to you so you can rightly determine and you so you can rightly determine and you so you can rightly determine and discern the cost of whatever it is that discern the cost of whatever it is that discern the cost of whatever it is that you're about to preach on or teach on you're about to preach on or teach on you're about to preach on or teach on and say publicly.

and say publicly. and say publicly. And so I think you know, Carrie, this is And so I think you know, Carrie, this is And so I think you know, Carrie, this is a hard question because I think there a hard question because I think there a hard question because I think there individuals that are graced for these individuals that are graced for these individuals that are graced for these conversations and then there's other conversations and then there's other conversations and then there's other individuals that don't have that grace. individuals that don't have that grace. individuals that don't have that grace. They're not called to it. And this They're not called to it. And this They're not called to it. And this interesting goes back to social media. I interesting goes back to social media. I interesting goes back to social media. I think there's local pastors that see how think there's local pastors that see how think there's local pastors that see how Pastor A on social is handling politics Pastor A on social is handling politics Pastor A on social is handling politics and how they're speaking out. And and how they're speaking out. And and how they're speaking out. And they're getting this big following. And they're getting this big following. And they're getting this big following. And they're you know, and and maybe that's they're you know, and and maybe that's they're you know, and and maybe that's the way of the and I just put point I'm the way of the and I just put point I'm the way of the and I just put point I'm like, man, that's just that pastor. And like, man, that's just that pastor. And like, man, that's just that pastor. And that's and and they might be uniquely that's and and they might be uniquely that's and and they might be uniquely graced for that in their society, in graced for that in their society, in graced for that in their society, in their context, in their community. their context, in their community. their context, in their community. And yet like I think of Acts chapter 17 And yet like I think of Acts chapter 17 And yet like I think of Acts chapter 17 that it is not random or coincidence that it is not random or coincidence that it is not random or coincidence that you are placed in the geographical that you are placed in the geographical that you are placed in the geographical locations of your existence or the time locations of your existence or the time locations of your existence or the time in which you breathe. Like these things in which you breathe. Like these things in which you breathe. Like these things were determined by God, your geography were determined by God, your geography were determined by God, your geography and the time that you breathe in order and the time that you breathe in order and the time that you breathe in order that people might come to know who Jesus that people might come to know who Jesus that people might come to know who Jesus is. They would find the nearness of God is. They would find the nearness of God is. They would find the nearness of God to them. And so like you're the you're to them. And so like you're the you're to them. And so like you're the you're the person that God has called to that the person that God has called to that the person that God has called to that particular area and be faithful to your particular area and be faithful to your particular area and be faithful to your community. You know your congregation.

community. You know your congregation. community. You know your congregation. You know your people. You know your people. You know your people. Seek to encourage people in their Seek to encourage people in their Seek to encourage people in their affection for Jesus and be careful to affection for Jesus and be careful to affection for Jesus and be careful to participate in work and activity that participate in work and activity that participate in work and activity that creates more division in the household creates more division in the household creates more division in the household of God. And there might be wisdom in how of God. And there might be wisdom in how of God. And there might be wisdom in how you approach it. Not everything has to you approach it. Not everything has to you approach it. Not everything has to be done in the pulpit. You might do be done in the pulpit. You might do be done in the pulpit. You might do small group sessions. You might do house small group sessions. You might do house small group sessions. You might do house dinners. You might do you know, dinners. You might do you know, dinners. You might do you know, different ways based off of what your different ways based off of what your different ways based off of what your community needs in order to disciple community needs in order to disciple community needs in order to disciple your people. And so I would I would your people. And so I would I would your people. And so I would I would encourage you. I've got a lot of pastor encourage you. I've got a lot of pastor encourage you. I've got a lot of pastor friends that will hit me up at times friends that will hit me up at times friends that will hit me up at times when these kinds of moments happen, when these kinds of moments happen, when these kinds of moments happen, political moments. Am I supposed to political moments. Am I supposed to political moments. Am I supposed to speak on it? Am I not supposed to speak speak on it? Am I not supposed to speak speak on it? Am I not supposed to speak on it? I just want you to lift off of on it? I just want you to lift off of on it? I just want you to lift off of your shoulders the expectation that you your shoulders the expectation that you your shoulders the expectation that you have based off of other people, other have based off of other people, other have based off of other people, other pastors and how they do it, you know? pastors and how they do it, you know? pastors and how they do it, you know? And and seek the Lord for what is good. And and seek the Lord for what is good. And and seek the Lord for what is good. And guess what? You might make mistakes And guess what? You might make mistakes And guess what? You might make mistakes and that's okay. God is big enough to and that's okay. God is big enough to and that's okay. God is big enough to handle your mistakes. handle your mistakes. handle your mistakes. Just go back to him in humility, you Just go back to him in humility, you Just go back to him in humility, you know? know? know? So a last question or two. Back to evil.

So a last question or two. Back to evil. So a last question or two. Back to evil. Um Um Um How do we better recognize it in our How do we better recognize it in our How do we better recognize it in our life? life? life? Because it's one of those topics. I Because it's one of those topics. I Because it's one of those topics. I think it was Lewis who said like, you think it was Lewis who said like, you think it was Lewis who said like, you know, you either see spiritual battles know, you either see spiritual battles know, you either see spiritual battles everywhere or nowhere and those are the everywhere or nowhere and those are the everywhere or nowhere and those are the polarities. I think you quote him in polarities. I think you quote him in polarities. I think you quote him in your book. your book. your book. >> Yep. Yep. Um >> Yep. Yep. Um >> Yep. Yep. Um What What What How do we see it clearly and accurately How do we see it clearly and accurately How do we see it clearly and accurately and then what do we do to resist it? I and then what do we do to resist it? I and then what do we do to resist it? I think that C desire take. I've I've had think that C desire take. I've I've had think that C desire take. I've I've had similar thoughts not that well similar thoughts not that well similar thoughts not that well articulated in my head about like, well, articulated in my head about like, well, articulated in my head about like, well, that's sexual sin. that's sexual sin. that's sexual sin. That's financial sin. That's power. That's financial sin. That's power. That's financial sin. That's power. I saw it. Desired it. I took it. Right? I saw it. Desired it. I took it. Right? I saw it. Desired it. I took it. Right? >> Yeah. And that that every time I get to >> Yeah. And that that every time I get to >> Yeah. And that that every time I get to that verse in Genesis 3, she took. I'm that verse in Genesis 3, she took. I'm that verse in Genesis 3, she took. I'm like, oh man, like it's just so like, oh man, like it's just so like, oh man, like it's just so convicting. You got to be so careful. convicting. You got to be so careful. convicting. You got to be so careful. What what So how do you see it? And what What what So how do you see it? And what What what So how do you see it? And what do you do to protect yourself and do you do to protect yourself and do you do to protect yourself and maybe purify yourself. Maybe maybe maybe purify yourself. Maybe maybe maybe purify yourself. Maybe maybe you've fallen for it. You took the hook. you've fallen for it. You took the hook. you've fallen for it. You took the hook. How do you get out of it? Yeah, I mean How do you get out of it? Yeah, I mean How do you get out of it? Yeah, I mean if you've fallen for it and you took the if you've fallen for it and you took the if you've fallen for it and you took the hook, the the response is repentance. hook, the the response is repentance. hook, the the response is repentance. Yeah. You know, the Yeah. You know, the Yeah. You know, the the response is confession and the response is confession and the response is confession and repentance. And Nobody confesses repentance. And Nobody confesses repentance. And Nobody confesses anything anymore. We just blame anything anymore. We just blame anything anymore. We just blame everybody. Yeah. And and the interesting everybody. Yeah. And and the interesting everybody. Yeah. And and the interesting thing about repentance is the Hebrew thing about repentance is the Hebrew thing about repentance is the Hebrew word shuv is a play on words. It means word shuv is a play on words. It means word shuv is a play on words. It means to turn It means to turn away from, but to turn It means to turn away from, but to turn It means to turn away from, but it also means to return to.

it also means to return to. it also means to return to. And the problem with the Israelites is And the problem with the Israelites is And the problem with the Israelites is they often do a lot of turning away they often do a lot of turning away they often do a lot of turning away from. They turn away from one idol. They from. They turn away from one idol. They from. They turn away from one idol. They would turn away from one sin, but they would turn away from one sin, but they would turn away from one sin, but they just end up returning to a different just end up returning to a different just end up returning to a different sin. They return to a different idol. sin. They return to a different idol. sin. They return to a different idol. And the idea of repentance is you turn And the idea of repentance is you turn And the idea of repentance is you turn away from your sin and you turn towards away from your sin and you turn towards away from your sin and you turn towards King Jesus. Like you turn towards him in King Jesus. Like you turn towards him in King Jesus. Like you turn towards him in repentance and confession. I just wanted repentance and confession. I just wanted repentance and confession. I just wanted to comment on that. And in terms of to comment on that. And in terms of to comment on that. And in terms of like, how do you see like evil in our like, how do you see like evil in our like, how do you see like evil in our world today? You know, I think Lewis is also helpful You know, I think Lewis is also helpful here where it's like like humanity has a here where it's like like humanity has a here where it's like like humanity has a moral compass built into us by God moral compass built into us by God moral compass built into us by God himself. Where when we see things that himself. Where when we see things that himself. Where when we see things that happen in this world that ought not to happen in this world that ought not to happen in this world that ought not to be, there is a conscience that is built be, there is a conscience that is built be, there is a conscience that is built in us that responds and says that's in us that responds and says that's in us that responds and says that's wrong. wrong. wrong. You know, I think our response is we You know, I think our response is we You know, I think our response is we have to nourish and flourish that voice have to nourish and flourish that voice have to nourish and flourish that voice of identifying what what actually is of identifying what what actually is of identifying what what actually is wrong about it. wrong about it. wrong about it. What what actually is and and it's What what actually is and and it's What what actually is and and it's almost like an exercise, a theological almost like an exercise, a theological almost like an exercise, a theological mind exercise of what is wrong about it? mind exercise of what is wrong about it? mind exercise of what is wrong about it? What is the impact of that action? What What is the impact of that action? What What is the impact of that action? What are the consequences of it? And then are the consequences of it? And then are the consequences of it? And then like why would I even entertain it? Like like why would I even entertain it? Like like why would I even entertain it? Like why would I even entertain and what are why would I even entertain and what are why would I even entertain and what are the impact of that? I've got a friend, the impact of that? I've got a friend, the impact of that? I've got a friend, you know him, JP Pokluda. Oh yeah.

you know him, JP Pokluda. Oh yeah. you know him, JP Pokluda. Oh yeah. I love JP. JP and I were having a I love JP. JP and I were having a I love JP. JP and I were having a conversation about this whole thing with conversation about this whole thing with conversation about this whole thing with a group of pastors one day and he asked a group of pastors one day and he asked a group of pastors one day and he asked a question that I thought was so a question that I thought was so a question that I thought was so important. He goes, man, if the enemy important. He goes, man, if the enemy important. He goes, man, if the enemy was going to take you out, what would be was going to take you out, what would be was going to take you out, what would be the way that he he would take you out? the way that he he would take you out? the way that he he would take you out? That's a great question to ask. Yeah. That's a great question to ask. Yeah. That's a great question to ask. Yeah. >> Right? Just think about it. >> Right? Just think about it. >> Right? Just think about it. Mhm. Like you know yourself pretty well. Mhm. Like you know yourself pretty well. Mhm. Like you know yourself pretty well. Like like how's cheating, an affair, Like like how's cheating, an affair, Like like how's cheating, an affair, financial impropriety, pride, obsession, financial impropriety, pride, obsession, financial impropriety, pride, obsession, power, influence, like you know, like power, influence, like you know, like power, influence, like you know, like how how if the enemy was going to take how how if the enemy was going to take how how if the enemy was going to take you out, how would he take you out? And you out, how would he take you out? And you out, how would he take you out? And then reverse engineer from that, you then reverse engineer from that, you then reverse engineer from that, you know, some some actions, some know, some some actions, some know, some some actions, some accountability that you need to have. accountability that you need to have. accountability that you need to have. But Carrie, here's the thing that I've But Carrie, here's the thing that I've But Carrie, here's the thing that I've noticed. noticed. noticed. Um A heart that is bent on sin is going Um A heart that is bent on sin is going Um A heart that is bent on sin is going to sin. to sin. to sin. A heart that is okay. Like you can do A heart that is okay. Like you can do A heart that is okay. Like you can do all the stuff. I'm so glad you said all the stuff. I'm so glad you said all the stuff. I'm so glad you said that. You know, and I I kind of I have a that. You know, and I I kind of I have a that. You know, and I I kind of I have a hard time with like sometimes like A hard time with like sometimes like A hard time with like sometimes like A plus B equals C, you know, like just do plus B equals C, you know, like just do plus B equals C, you know, like just do the the the moralistic therapeutic deism the the the moralistic therapeutic deism the the the moralistic therapeutic deism aspect of it. And I just go back to aspect of it. And I just go back to aspect of it. And I just go back to Psalm 51 and I go, okay, what does King Psalm 51 and I go, okay, what does King Psalm 51 and I go, okay, what does King David say? He says, David say? He says, David say? He says, "Bara in me, create in me a new heart, "Bara in me, create in me a new heart, "Bara in me, create in me a new heart, oh God." This isn't a call for Chip and oh God." This isn't a call for Chip and oh God." This isn't a call for Chip and Joanna Gaines to come through and to do Joanna Gaines to come through and to do Joanna Gaines to come through and to do some fancy renovation of his heart. This some fancy renovation of his heart. This some fancy renovation of his heart. This is heart transplant. This is my heart is is heart transplant. This is my heart is is heart transplant. This is my heart is wicked and corrupt and jacked up from wicked and corrupt and jacked up from wicked and corrupt and jacked up from the floor up. I need a new heart. And the floor up. I need a new heart. And the floor up. I need a new heart. And and God, I'm I'm dependent on you for and God, I'm I'm dependent on you for and God, I'm I'm dependent on you for this new heart. And I'm dependent on you this new heart. And I'm dependent on you this new heart. And I'm dependent on you to sustain this new heart. And I'm to sustain this new heart. And I'm to sustain this new heart. And I'm dependent And so it's a it's a it's a dependent And so it's a it's a it's a dependent And so it's a it's a it's a place of deep dependence. I think the place of deep dependence. I think the place of deep dependence. I think the way that the enemy shows up often, how

way that the enemy shows up often, how way that the enemy shows up often, how we can see spiritual warfare is the we can see spiritual warfare is the we can see spiritual warfare is the exchange of dependence. exchange of dependence. exchange of dependence. Like um So what I mean by that is the Like um So what I mean by that is the Like um So what I mean by that is the enemy is like, oh, you don't need to enemy is like, oh, you don't need to enemy is like, oh, you don't need to depend on God. Like you can depend on depend on God. Like you can depend on depend on God. Like you can depend on yourself. I like to call the unholy yourself. I like to call the unholy yourself. I like to call the unholy trinity of me, myself and I. You know, trinity of me, myself and I. You know, trinity of me, myself and I. You know, the viral the viral Tik Tok uh reel goes the viral the viral Tik Tok uh reel goes the viral the viral Tik Tok uh reel goes like this. Like you do you, boo. like this. Like you do you, boo. like this. Like you do you, boo. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Never made me too >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Never made me too >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Never made me too happy. In fact, therapy. Like I actually happy. In fact, therapy. Like I actually happy. In fact, therapy. Like I actually think therapy and and I Lisa and I think therapy and and I Lisa and I think therapy and and I Lisa and I co-host a co-host a co-host a podcast called Therapy and Theology with podcast called Therapy and Theology with podcast called Therapy and Theology with the licensed counselor Jim Cress. I love the licensed counselor Jim Cress. I love the licensed counselor Jim Cress. I love it. Jim and I were just were the three it. Jim and I were just were the three it. Jim and I were just were the three of us did our new season and we were of us did our new season and we were of us did our new season and we were talking about this of my personal talking about this of my personal talking about this of my personal concern of a society that is concern of a society that is concern of a society that is over-therapized. over-therapized. over-therapized. We are overly therapized in this way We are overly therapized in this way We are overly therapized in this way that we're opting for a humanistic that we're opting for a humanistic that we're opting for a humanistic approach for therapy and instead of approach for therapy and instead of approach for therapy and instead of working through the sanctification working through the sanctification working through the sanctification process and identifying the difference process and identifying the difference process and identifying the difference between a difficult relationship and between a difficult relationship and between a difficult relationship and destructive relationship. Anything that destructive relationship. Anything that destructive relationship. Anything that is a difficult, we just say, well, I is a difficult, we just say, well, I is a difficult, we just say, well, I need boundaries and I'm cutting that need boundaries and I'm cutting that need boundaries and I'm cutting that person out of my life.

person out of my life. person out of my life. You know, and but all that does is You know, and but all that does is You know, and but all that does is creating isolation. This is spiritual creating isolation. This is spiritual creating isolation. This is spiritual warfare. So, I would say like one of the warfare. So, I would say like one of the warfare. So, I would say like one of the things I would want us to do is to things I would want us to do is to things I would want us to do is to identify areas of our life where the identify areas of our life where the identify areas of our life where the enemy is enticing us into deeper enemy is enticing us into deeper enemy is enticing us into deeper dependence on ourselves or created dependence on ourselves or created dependence on ourselves or created things and away from dependence on God. things and away from dependence on God. things and away from dependence on God. Interesting. You know, just for the Interesting. You know, just for the Interesting. You know, just for the record and and regular listeners now or record and and regular listeners now or record and and regular listeners now or viewers will know who my therapist is, viewers will know who my therapist is, viewers will know who my therapist is, Wayne Chappell, Dr. C. He was on with Wayne Chappell, Dr. C. He was on with Wayne Chappell, Dr. C. He was on with Craig and I a couple of a couple months Craig and I a couple of a couple months Craig and I a couple of a couple months ago and you know, I I went to him 6 ago and you know, I I went to him 6 ago and you know, I I went to him 6 years ago with I got no flaming issue in years ago with I got no flaming issue in years ago with I got no flaming issue in my life, but I want to know cuz so many my life, but I want to know cuz so many my life, but I want to know cuz so many people, you know, leaders are dropping people, you know, leaders are dropping people, you know, leaders are dropping like flies. Like, what's going to be my like flies. Like, what's going to be my like flies. Like, what's going to be my Achilles' heel? What's going to take me Achilles' heel? What's going to take me Achilles' heel? What's going to take me out? And his answer was isolation. Mhm. out? And his answer was isolation. Mhm. out? And his answer was isolation. Mhm. He's like, it's going to be isolation He's like, it's going to be isolation He's like, it's going to be isolation for you cuz you're probably not going to for you cuz you're probably not going to for you cuz you're probably not going to have an affair, probably not going to have an affair, probably not going to have an affair, probably not going to steal money. steal money. steal money. Power, you've wrestled with it. Says Power, you've wrestled with it. Says Power, you've wrestled with it. Says it's going to be isolation and you're it's going to be isolation and you're it's going to be isolation and you're right, you get isolated. So, I've been right, you get isolated. So, I've been right, you get isolated. So, I've been very intentional. This morning I texted very intentional. This morning I texted very intentional. This morning I texted two friends. two friends. two friends. And I'm like, what do you see in my life And I'm like, what do you see in my life And I'm like, what do you see in my life that is obvious to others that I'm that is obvious to others that I'm that is obvious to others that I'm missing? It was a Keller question that missing? It was a Keller question that missing? It was a Keller question that came up in my morning devotion. And so, came up in my morning devotion. And so, came up in my morning devotion. And so, I'm actively actively actively trying to I'm actively actively actively trying to I'm actively actively actively trying to make sure that I see it in my life and make sure that I see it in my life and make sure that I see it in my life and and nip it in the bud. But, the reason I and nip it in the bud. But, the reason I and nip it in the bud. But, the reason I resonated so deeply with what you said, resonated so deeply with what you said, resonated so deeply with what you said, a heart bent on sin is going to sin.

a heart bent on sin is going to sin. a heart bent on sin is going to sin. Yeah. People ask me all the time because Yeah. People ask me all the time because Yeah. People ask me all the time because we it's a regular theme on this podcast we it's a regular theme on this podcast we it's a regular theme on this podcast like, you know, why do leaders fall? like, you know, why do leaders fall? like, you know, why do leaders fall? What happened? What were the conditions? What happened? What were the conditions? What happened? What were the conditions? And we've done some deconstructions on And we've done some deconstructions on And we've done some deconstructions on Willow, on Hillsong, on different Willow, on Hillsong, on different Willow, on Hillsong, on different episodes. Not from a hit piece, but just episodes. Not from a hit piece, but just episodes. Not from a hit piece, but just like trying to understand what happened. like trying to understand what happened. like trying to understand what happened. And then often people will say, well, And then often people will say, well, And then often people will say, well, they just need better governance or they they just need better governance or they they just need better governance or they need better accountability. But, I am need better accountability. But, I am need better accountability. But, I am firmly convinced you can have the best firmly convinced you can have the best firmly convinced you can have the best governance structure in the world. governance structure in the world. governance structure in the world. And if you're a deceiver, you're going And if you're a deceiver, you're going And if you're a deceiver, you're going to figure out how to work around the to figure out how to work around the to figure out how to work around the system. Agreed, disagree? 100% system. Agreed, disagree? 100% system. Agreed, disagree? 100% >> bent on sin. Yeah. And you should have a >> bent on sin. Yeah. And you should have a >> bent on sin. Yeah. And you should have a good system. Like, have a great board, good system. Like, have a great board, good system. Like, have a great board, have great accountabilities built in. have great accountabilities built in. have great accountabilities built in. But, if you're going to lie and you're But, if you're going to lie and you're But, if you're going to lie and you're going to cheat, you're just going to going to cheat, you're just going to going to cheat, you're just going to figure out a way to do it. Yeah. 100% figure out a way to do it. Yeah. 100% figure out a way to do it. Yeah. 100% agree. And this is where there's there's agree. And this is where there's there's agree. And this is where there's there's a tension of of um Yeah. of a tension of of um Yeah. of a tension of of um Yeah. of sanctification here. Cuz cuz this is sanctification here. Cuz cuz this is sanctification here. Cuz cuz this is that that passage. I think it's in that that passage. I think it's in that that passage. I think it's in Timothy. It stresses me out, man. It's Timothy. It stresses me out, man. It's Timothy. It stresses me out, man. It's like having the appearance of godliness like having the appearance of godliness like having the appearance of godliness but denying its power. but denying its power. but denying its power. Yes. Which is such a temptation for Yes. Which is such a temptation for Yes. Which is such a temptation for pastors. Yeah. Because the dopamine hit pastors. Yeah. Because the dopamine hit pastors. Yeah. Because the dopamine hit that we're getting is all on the outside that we're getting is all on the outside that we're getting is all on the outside God Godliness looking.

God Godliness looking. God Godliness looking. And it's feeding, but on the inside And it's feeding, but on the inside And it's feeding, but on the inside it is feeding actually the um so, in my it is feeding actually the um so, in my it is feeding actually the um so, in my book The Hidden Peace, the first book book The Hidden Peace, the first book book The Hidden Peace, the first book that I wrote, I talked about the fruit that I wrote, I talked about the fruit that I wrote, I talked about the fruit of the Spirit and I talked about how the of the Spirit and I talked about how the of the Spirit and I talked about how the fruit of the Spirit get corrupt and how fruit of the Spirit get corrupt and how fruit of the Spirit get corrupt and how like the fruit of the Spirit can like the fruit of the Spirit can like the fruit of the Spirit can actually be the hidden vices. Uh actually be the hidden vices. Uh actually be the hidden vices. Uh particularly for leaders. So, for particularly for leaders. So, for particularly for leaders. So, for instance, the fruit of the Spirit love, instance, the fruit of the Spirit love, instance, the fruit of the Spirit love, joy, peace, patience, kind of good stuff joy, peace, patience, kind of good stuff joy, peace, patience, kind of good stuff all of that, right? Yeah. But, when did all of that, right? Yeah. But, when did all of that, right? Yeah. But, when did the fruit of the Spirit go corrupt? It's the fruit of the Spirit go corrupt? It's the fruit of the Spirit go corrupt? It's when the aim of the fruit of the Spirit when the aim of the fruit of the Spirit when the aim of the fruit of the Spirit is not outward for the edification of is not outward for the edification of is not outward for the edification of the people of God and upward for the the people of God and upward for the the people of God and upward for the glorification of God. glorification of God. glorification of God. So, the fruit of the Spirit have aim and So, the fruit of the Spirit have aim and So, the fruit of the Spirit have aim and ambition. Aim out to edify the people of ambition. Aim out to edify the people of ambition. Aim out to edify the people of God, up to glorify God. What when it God, up to glorify God. What when it God, up to glorify God. What when it goes wrong is when it goes inward. The goes wrong is when it goes inward. The goes wrong is when it goes inward. The fruit of the Spirit are actually fruit of the Spirit are actually fruit of the Spirit are actually leveraged as a way to make ourselves leveraged as a way to make ourselves leveraged as a way to make ourselves feel better about ourselves, to glorify feel better about ourselves, to glorify feel better about ourselves, to glorify ourselves, to um to increase our ourselves, to um to increase our ourselves, to um to increase our platform. And I think this is one of platform. And I think this is one of platform. And I think this is one of those things that is so scary for those things that is so scary for those things that is so scary for ministry leaders particularly because we ministry leaders particularly because we ministry leaders particularly because we can on the outside evaluate it and go can on the outside evaluate it and go can on the outside evaluate it and go Godliness, love, joy, peace, patience, Godliness, love, joy, peace, patience, Godliness, love, joy, peace, patience, but it's all on a hook and that hook is but it's all on a hook and that hook is but it's all on a hook and that hook is connected to self-gratification, selfish connected to self-gratification, selfish connected to self-gratification, selfish ambition, vain conceit. And so deadly ambition, vain conceit. And so deadly ambition, vain conceit. And so deadly because on the outside it looks so good, because on the outside it looks so good, because on the outside it looks so good, but on the inside it's corrupt. On the but on the inside it's corrupt. On the but on the inside it's corrupt. On the inside it's corrupt. So, that's why a inside it's corrupt. So, that's why a inside it's corrupt. So, that's why a heart that's bent on sin is always going heart that's bent on sin is always going heart that's bent on sin is always going to sin.

to sin. to sin. Um and and and I think it's not like Um and and and I think it's not like Um and and and I think it's not like either or, it's a both and. either or, it's a both and. either or, it's a both and. It there's got to be a level of It there's got to be a level of It there's got to be a level of humility, you know, that walks into this humility, you know, that walks into this humility, you know, that walks into this and like what you did, have some people and like what you did, have some people and like what you did, have some people around you. My wife is, you know, got around you. My wife is, you know, got around you. My wife is, you know, got some close friends. Um had a situation some close friends. Um had a situation some close friends. Um had a situation that happened where uh something that happened where uh something that happened where uh something happened in my life. I'm an ambition guy happened in my life. I'm an ambition guy happened in my life. I'm an ambition guy and um a project I worked on didn't do and um a project I worked on didn't do and um a project I worked on didn't do what I thought it was going to do. what I thought it was going to do. what I thought it was going to do. And I was really mad. And I was really mad. And I was really mad. Yeah. I started to like vent to my Yeah. I started to like vent to my Yeah. I started to like vent to my friends. I started to make friends. I started to make friends. I started to make passive-aggressive comments, passive-aggressive comments, passive-aggressive comments, you know, about this person. The other you know, about this person. The other you know, about this person. The other this other person did much better than I this other person did much better than I this other person did much better than I did in this thing and did in this thing and did in this thing and my buddy called me and goes, "Hey, man, my buddy called me and goes, "Hey, man, my buddy called me and goes, "Hey, man, your heart is bent towards pride." your heart is bent towards pride." your heart is bent towards pride." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Like like it is it is you're you're like >> Like like it is it is you're you're like >> Like like it is it is you're you're like you're in a bad place in your heart, you you're in a bad place in your heart, you you're in a bad place in your heart, you know? And so like I needed to address know? And so like I needed to address know? And so like I needed to address it, assess it, confess it. I don't know it, assess it, confess it. I don't know it, assess it, confess it. I don't know the other person. If I knew the other the other person. If I knew the other the other person. If I knew the other person personally, I would call them and person personally, I would call them and person personally, I would call them and confess it to them, you know? I wrote a confess it to them, you know? I wrote a confess it to them, you know? I wrote a letter to them. I don't know if they letter to them. I don't know if they letter to them. I don't know if they ever got it, but ever got it, but ever got it, but uh just it's like uh just it's like uh just it's like kind of dumb, but kind of dumb, but kind of dumb, but really important because left really important because left really important because left unattended, that's the thing that's unattended, that's the thing that's unattended, that's the thing that's going to take me out.

going to take me out. going to take me out. >> Oh, that grows. Then you give the devil >> Oh, that grows. Then you give the devil >> Oh, that grows. Then you give the devil a toehold. Then then it becomes what is a toehold. Then then it becomes what is a toehold. Then then it becomes what is it? A besetting sin. Yeah. Yeah, that's it? A besetting sin. Yeah. Yeah, that's it? A besetting sin. Yeah. Yeah, that's what happens. what happens. what happens. Joel, we didn't even really get to the Joel, we didn't even really get to the Joel, we didn't even really get to the Nephilim. So, that's for next time, Nephilim. So, that's for next time, Nephilim. So, that's for next time, okay? But, this is great. This is great. okay? But, this is great. This is great. okay? But, this is great. This is great. I've I've enjoyed this I've I've enjoyed this I've I've enjoyed this so much and I think it's been helpful. so much and I think it's been helpful. so much and I think it's been helpful. Um these are the things that we struggle Um these are the things that we struggle Um these are the things that we struggle with. These are the with. These are the with. These are the the perpetually reoccurring challenges I the perpetually reoccurring challenges I the perpetually reoccurring challenges I think that we have in trying to be think that we have in trying to be think that we have in trying to be faithful in the time that we're in. So, faithful in the time that we're in. So, faithful in the time that we're in. So, your new book is called The Unseen your new book is called The Unseen your new book is called The Unseen Battle. It's available everywhere and I Battle. It's available everywhere and I Battle. It's available everywhere and I know people are going to want to track know people are going to want to track know people are going to want to track with you. What is the best place? Is with you. What is the best place? Is with you. What is the best place? Is there a website, social account you want there a website, social account you want there a website, social account you want people to track with you after after people to track with you after after people to track with you after after they listen? Yeah, so really everywhere they listen? Yeah, so really everywhere they listen? Yeah, so really everywhere it's just my last name. So, on social it's just my last name. So, on social it's just my last name. So, on social it's @mudamalle, m u d d a m a l l e. it's @mudamalle, m u d d a m a l l e. it's @mudamalle, m u d d a m a l l e. Not many of us out there, so that should Not many of us out there, so that should Not many of us out there, so that should pop up. Kind of like Newhoff. It's like pop up. Kind of like Newhoff. It's like pop up. Kind of like Newhoff. It's like misspell it, you're going to find it, misspell it, you're going to find it, misspell it, you're going to find it, right?

right? right? >> And then my website is mudamalle.com, >> And then my website is mudamalle.com, >> And then my website is mudamalle.com, kind of the same deal. And there's a kind of the same deal. And there's a kind of the same deal. And there's a link to my Substack on there. And like I link to my Substack on there. And like I link to my Substack on there. And like I think we talked about earlier, I'm I'm think we talked about earlier, I'm I'm think we talked about earlier, I'm I'm really passionate about Substack cuz really passionate about Substack cuz really passionate about Substack cuz this longer form content. Like I think this longer form content. Like I think this longer form content. Like I think we should we should we should read, you know? Sort of the new read, you know? Sort of the new read, you know? Sort of the new blogging, isn't it? Substack really is. blogging, isn't it? Substack really is. blogging, isn't it? Substack really is. >> like it is. I feel like it is. >> like it is. I feel like it is. >> like it is. I feel like it is. >> Why Substack as opposed to a blog? Just >> Why Substack as opposed to a blog? Just >> Why Substack as opposed to a blog? Just better discoverability or Yeah, better better discoverability or Yeah, better better discoverability or Yeah, better it's got its own social community built it's got its own social community built it's got its own social community built into it. This is kind of [clears throat] into it. This is kind of [clears throat] into it. This is kind of [clears throat] funny, Carey. I actually think the funny, Carey. I actually think the funny, Carey. I actually think the people on Substack right now are just people on Substack right now are just people on Substack right now are just nicer. Like, they're more thoughtful. nicer. Like, they're more thoughtful. nicer. Like, they're more thoughtful. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Like, they're not kind of chaotic and >> Like, they're not kind of chaotic and >> Like, they're not kind of chaotic and crazy, you know? crazy, you know? crazy, you know? I kind of want to like I'm careful even I kind of want to like I'm careful even I kind of want to like I'm careful even of saying it cuz I don't want to drive of saying it cuz I don't want to drive of saying it cuz I don't want to drive like the crazy chaotic people over like the crazy chaotic people over like the crazy chaotic people over there. I almost want to like be a little there. I almost want to like be a little there. I almost want to like be a little bit of like a gatekeeper on it, but like bit of like a gatekeeper on it, but like bit of like a gatekeeper on it, but like I've loved I know I know. Uh like I've I've loved I know I know. Uh like I've I've loved I know I know. Uh like I've loved that. But, also on a pragmatic loved that. But, also on a pragmatic loved that. But, also on a pragmatic standpoint, it's based off of email and standpoint, it's based off of email and standpoint, it's based off of email and so as an individual you get to own your so as an individual you get to own your so as an individual you get to own your emails as part of that kind of growth emails as part of that kind of growth emails as part of that kind of growth channel, which is really great that channel, which is really great that channel, which is really great that you're able to communicate to to your you're able to communicate to to your you're able to communicate to to your people. So, people. So, people. So, um yeah, next time when we talk about um yeah, next time when we talk about um yeah, next time when we talk about the Nephilim, maybe we need to do it in the Nephilim, maybe we need to do it in the Nephilim, maybe we need to do it in person cuz I feel like that conversation person cuz I feel like that conversation person cuz I feel like that conversation requires in-person hang.

requires in-person hang. requires in-person hang. In-person hang. I like that. I like that In-person hang. I like that. I like that In-person hang. I like that. I like that approach. Joel, this has been great. approach. Joel, this has been great. approach. Joel, this has been great. It's been really good for me personally It's been really good for me personally It's been really good for me personally and I think you helped a lot of leaders and I think you helped a lot of leaders and I think you helped a lot of leaders today. Really grateful for your ministry today. Really grateful for your ministry today. Really grateful for your ministry and thanks for a robust, thoughtful, and and thanks for a robust, thoughtful, and and thanks for a robust, thoughtful, and wide-ranging conversation today. wide-ranging conversation today. wide-ranging conversation today. You're welcome. I hope you enjoyed that You're welcome. I hope you enjoyed that You're welcome. I hope you enjoyed that podcast. I really enjoyed the podcast. I really enjoyed the podcast. I really enjoyed the conversation and well, we kind of went conversation and well, we kind of went conversation and well, we kind of went all over the place, but that's the point all over the place, but that's the point all over the place, but that's the point of this podcast and we didn't even get of this podcast and we didn't even get of this podcast and we didn't even get to the Nephilim, so we'll have to do to the Nephilim, so we'll have to do to the Nephilim, so we'll have to do that next time in person. We have show that next time in person. We have show that next time in person. We have show notes for this, everything we referenced notes for this, everything we referenced notes for this, everything we referenced and talked about. You can find them and talked about. You can find them and talked about. You can find them inside my Art of Leadership Academy. We inside my Art of Leadership Academy. We inside my Art of Leadership Academy. We have over 20,000 leaders inside the have over 20,000 leaders inside the have over 20,000 leaders inside the Academy. Would love for you to move from Academy. Would love for you to move from Academy. Would love for you to move from the crowd to the core. We post the the crowd to the core. We post the the crowd to the core. We post the episodes in there as well as all the episodes in there as well as all the episodes in there as well as all the public channels, but we have some really public channels, but we have some really public channels, but we have some really meaningful conversations and I'd love to meaningful conversations and I'd love to meaningful conversations and I'd love to hear from you uh inside the Academy. So, hear from you uh inside the Academy. So, hear from you uh inside the Academy. So, to do that, you can go to the art of to do that, you can go to the art of to do that, you can go to the art of leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. Sign up for free today. There's a Sign up for free today. There's a Sign up for free today. There's a premium level to it which you get all of premium level to it which you get all of premium level to it which you get all of my content, direct access to me and a my content, direct access to me and a my content, direct access to me and a whole lot more. So, check it all out at whole lot more. So, check it all out at whole lot more. So, check it all out at the art of leadershipacademy.com.

the art of leadershipacademy.com. the art of leadershipacademy.com. Also coming up, we have got Dave Also coming up, we have got Dave Also coming up, we have got Dave Ferguson, Eric Reese from The Lean Ferguson, Eric Reese from The Lean Ferguson, Eric Reese from The Lean Startup, Rich Villodas, Dr. Nicole Startup, Rich Villodas, Dr. Nicole Startup, Rich Villodas, Dr. Nicole Martin, Joshua Becker, and a whole lot Martin, Joshua Becker, and a whole lot Martin, Joshua Becker, and a whole lot more coming up on the podcast. Also, more coming up on the podcast. Also, more coming up on the podcast. Also, Will Guidara is coming back. How about Will Guidara is coming back. How about Will Guidara is coming back. How about that? That's going to be a lot of fun. that? That's going to be a lot of fun. that? That's going to be a lot of fun. He of unreasonable hospitality fame, now He of unreasonable hospitality fame, now He of unreasonable hospitality fame, now a perpetual New York Times best-seller. a perpetual New York Times best-seller. a perpetual New York Times best-seller. I always love talking to Will and you I always love talking to Will and you I always love talking to Will and you will get all of that and a whole lot will get all of that and a whole lot will get all of that and a whole lot more if you subscribe or hit follow more if you subscribe or hit follow more if you subscribe or hit follow wherever you're watching or listening to wherever you're watching or listening to wherever you're watching or listening to this episode. If this has meant this episode. If this has meant this episode. If this has meant something to you, maybe share it with something to you, maybe share it with something to you, maybe share it with your team. Send them a link or a text your team. Send them a link or a text your team. Send them a link or a text and just let them know, "Hey, this has and just let them know, "Hey, this has and just let them know, "Hey, this has been a really good conversation. Maybe been a really good conversation. Maybe been a really good conversation. Maybe we can talk as a team." We've also got we can talk as a team." We've also got we can talk as a team." We've also got show notes in the Academy as usual. Hope show notes in the Academy as usual. Hope show notes in the Academy as usual. Hope you are enjoying whatever you're doing. you are enjoying whatever you're doing. you are enjoying whatever you're doing. I love it cuz the good weather is here. I love it cuz the good weather is here. I love it cuz the good weather is here. I'll be out on my bike. I will be I'll be out on my bike. I will be I'll be out on my bike. I will be working out. I will be mowing the lawn working out. I will be mowing the lawn working out. I will be mowing the lawn and listening to podcasts. All of my and listening to podcasts. All of my and listening to podcasts. All of my favorite things as spring moves into favorite things as spring moves into favorite things as spring moves into summer. So, thanks so much for watching. summer. So, thanks so much for watching. summer. So, thanks so much for watching. Thanks so much for listening today and I Thanks so much for listening today and I Thanks so much for listening today and I hope our time together today helped you hope our time together today helped you hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.