How Great Leaders Practice Self-Care

What happens when you're ambitious What happens when you're ambitious to an extreme is you begin to sacrifice to an extreme is you begin to sacrifice to an extreme is you begin to sacrifice some of the most important things, such some of the most important things, such some of the most important things, such as your prayer life, your your Bible as your prayer life, your your Bible as your prayer life, your your Bible reading. You begin to sacrifice reading. You begin to sacrifice reading. You begin to sacrifice uh fellowship with uh the right uh fellowship with uh the right uh fellowship with uh the right believers. believers. believers. Um and I think when you do that, um Um and I think when you do that, um Um and I think when you do that, um you know, that's not uh that's not you know, that's not uh that's not you know, that's not uh that's not self-care. self-care. self-care. That's that's reckless ambition. That's that's reckless ambition. That's that's reckless ambition. Um and I you know, I would say over my Um and I you know, I would say over my Um and I you know, I would say over my 30 years of Convoy of Hope in the early 30 years of Convoy of Hope in the early 30 years of Convoy of Hope in the early days, days, days, um I was so focused on building a um I was so focused on building a um I was so focused on building a ministry ministry ministry that um I was sacrificing things that that um I was sacrificing things that that um I was sacrificing things that ultimately led to heart problem. ultimately led to heart problem. ultimately led to heart problem. Hey, welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Hey, welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Hey, welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. If you're new here, Leadership Podcast. If you're new here, Leadership Podcast. If you're new here, make sure you subscribe because you're make sure you subscribe because you're make sure you subscribe because you're going to get great guests like today's going to get great guests like today's going to get great guests like today's guest, Hal Donaldson. You'll also hear guest, Hal Donaldson. You'll also hear guest, Hal Donaldson. You'll also hear from people like Jim Collins, Nona from people like Jim Collins, Nona from people like Jim Collins, Nona Jones, Sharon McMahon, Andy Stanley, Ed Jones, Sharon McMahon, Andy Stanley, Ed Jones, Sharon McMahon, Andy Stanley, Ed Stetzer, Malcolm Gladwell, and a whole Stetzer, Malcolm Gladwell, and a whole Stetzer, Malcolm Gladwell, and a whole lot more. All coming up on this show in lot more. All coming up on this show in lot more. All coming up on this show in the upcoming months, so make sure you the upcoming months, so make sure you the upcoming months, so make sure you hit subscribe, then you won't miss a hit subscribe, then you won't miss a hit subscribe, then you won't miss a thing. And today, I'm going to sit down thing. And today, I'm going to sit down thing. And today, I'm going to sit down with Hal Donaldson. He's the founder and with Hal Donaldson. He's the founder and with Hal Donaldson. He's the founder and the CEO of Convoy of Hope. We're going the CEO of Convoy of Hope. We're going the CEO of Convoy of Hope. We're going to talk about the price of leadership, to talk about the price of leadership, to talk about the price of leadership, the cost in particular of neglecting the cost in particular of neglecting the cost in particular of neglecting self-care in leadership, and a whole lot self-care in leadership, and a whole lot self-care in leadership, and a whole lot more. Today's episode is brought to you more. Today's episode is brought to you more. Today's episode is brought to you by Belay. So, this month is your last by Belay. So, this month is your last by Belay. So, this month is your last opportunity to download Belay's free opportunity to download Belay's free opportunity to download Belay's free resource, 25 Things a Pastor Can resource, 25 Things a Pastor Can resource, 25 Things a Pastor Can Delegate to an Assistant. It's the Delegate to an Assistant. It's the Delegate to an Assistant. It's the perfect tool to jump-start your perfect tool to jump-start your perfect tool to jump-start your imagination on all the ways that hiring

imagination on all the ways that hiring imagination on all the ways that hiring a virtual assistant can transform your a virtual assistant can transform your a virtual assistant can transform your life and leadership. All you have to do life and leadership. All you have to do life and leadership. All you have to do is text Carey to 55123. You'll get your is text Carey to 55123. You'll get your is text Carey to 55123. You'll get your free download. That's my name, Carey, to free download. That's my name, Carey, to free download. That's my name, Carey, to 55123. And today's episode is brought to 55123. And today's episode is brought to 55123. And today's episode is brought to you by Subsplash. If you feel like you by Subsplash. If you feel like you by Subsplash. If you feel like you're spending too much time working you're spending too much time working you're spending too much time working outside of your wheelhouse, your outside of your wheelhouse, your outside of your wheelhouse, your gifting, and you're expected to be a gifting, and you're expected to be a gifting, and you're expected to be a tech expert, well, join 17,000 other tech expert, well, join 17,000 other tech expert, well, join 17,000 other churches that partner with Subsplash for churches that partner with Subsplash for churches that partner with Subsplash for expert tech made simple, go to expert tech made simple, go to expert tech made simple, go to Subsplash.com/carey. Subsplash.com/carey. Subsplash.com/carey. You'll get $500 You'll get $500 You'll get $500 off. And now, my conversation with Hal off. And now, my conversation with Hal off. And now, my conversation with Hal Donaldson. Hal, it's wonderful to have Donaldson. Hal, it's wonderful to have Donaldson. Hal, it's wonderful to have you on the podcast. Known each other for you on the podcast. Known each other for you on the podcast. Known each other for a couple of years and it's about time. a couple of years and it's about time. a couple of years and it's about time. Hey, thank you for having me, Carey, and Hey, thank you for having me, Carey, and Hey, thank you for having me, Carey, and congratulations on the podcast. It's congratulations on the podcast. It's congratulations on the podcast. It's having an impact. having an impact. having an impact. Thank you. Thank you. It's a thrill to Thank you. Thank you. It's a thrill to Thank you. Thank you. It's a thrill to be able to do it and I'm really be able to do it and I'm really be able to do it and I'm really intrigued to to dig into your story cuz intrigued to to dig into your story cuz intrigued to to dig into your story cuz you're one of those people that you're one of those people that you're one of those people that I think I think I think once you get to know, you just realize, once you get to know, you just realize, once you get to know, you just realize, oh, there's another layer and oh, oh, there's another layer and oh, oh, there's another layer and oh, there's another layer and there's one there's another layer and there's one there's another layer and there's one more layer. So, I want to start at an more layer. So, I want to start at an more layer. So, I want to start at an experience you had recently experience you had recently experience you had recently cuz it really rang true with my own cuz it really rang true with my own cuz it really rang true with my own leadership and moments that I've had leadership and moments that I've had leadership and moments that I've had with my wife that have been very with my wife that have been very with my wife that have been very bittersweet. So, you were at an event, I bittersweet. So, you were at an event, I bittersweet. So, you were at an event, I think it was the grand opening of your think it was the grand opening of your think it was the grand opening of your distribution center, which is a major distribution center, which is a major distribution center, which is a major accomplishment. Big celebration, accomplishment. Big celebration, accomplishment. Big celebration, everybody flies in, all the employees everybody flies in, all the employees everybody flies in, all the employees are there. Supposed to be really a day are there. Supposed to be really a day are there. Supposed to be really a day of happiness, celebration, joy. And of happiness, celebration, joy. And of happiness, celebration, joy. And there was a lot to celebrate. But you

there was a lot to celebrate. But you there was a lot to celebrate. But you said you felt like an embattled warrior. said you felt like an embattled warrior. said you felt like an embattled warrior. You weren't able to really celebrate and You weren't able to really celebrate and You weren't able to really celebrate and actually felt a ton of regret. So, with actually felt a ton of regret. So, with actually felt a ton of regret. So, with that said, you're not alone, Hal, and I that said, you're not alone, Hal, and I that said, you're not alone, Hal, and I would love to unpack that with you. What would love to unpack that with you. What would love to unpack that with you. What happened in your case on that day? happened in your case on that day? happened in your case on that day? Yeah, it was the the grand opening of Yeah, it was the the grand opening of Yeah, it was the the grand opening of our world distribution center, which our world distribution center, which our world distribution center, which is already helping millions of people. is already helping millions of people. is already helping millions of people. It was several years ago. And it was It was several years ago. And it was It was several years ago. And it was quite a festive event, huge crowd. quite a festive event, huge crowd. quite a festive event, huge crowd. And I was sitting on the stage and uh And I was sitting on the stage and uh And I was sitting on the stage and uh all I could think about, Carey, was all I could think about, Carey, was all I could think about, Carey, was flashbacks flashbacks flashbacks to the sacrifices, to all the travel, to the sacrifices, to all the travel, to the sacrifices, to all the travel, the toll that this had taken on me. I the toll that this had taken on me. I the toll that this had taken on me. I mean, we had entered into this facility mean, we had entered into this facility mean, we had entered into this facility debt-free. There was no debt. We'd paid debt-free. There was no debt. We'd paid debt-free. There was no debt. We'd paid for the whole thing. It was a real for the whole thing. It was a real for the whole thing. It was a real miracle. miracle. miracle. I should have been celebrating one of I should have been celebrating one of I should have been celebrating one of the great moments of my life. Instead, I the great moments of my life. Instead, I the great moments of my life. Instead, I just kept looking back and it was just kept looking back and it was just kept looking back and it was somewhat discouraging and depressing somewhat discouraging and depressing somewhat discouraging and depressing as I regretted some of the things that as I regretted some of the things that as I regretted some of the things that I'd done, such as spending, you know, I'd done, such as spending, you know, I'd done, such as spending, you know, 150 nights away from home, away from my 150 nights away from home, away from my 150 nights away from home, away from my four daughters, and the regrets went on four daughters, and the regrets went on four daughters, and the regrets went on from there. And um at the conclusion of from there. And um at the conclusion of from there. And um at the conclusion of the ceremony, the ceremony, the ceremony, uh one of our long-time donors, uh one of our long-time donors, uh one of our long-time donors, partners, asked to speak to me, and uh a partners, asked to speak to me, and uh a partners, asked to speak to me, and uh a woman in her 80s, woman in her 80s, woman in her 80s, and uh she asked me to come backstage, and uh she asked me to come backstage, and uh she asked me to come backstage, and just the two of us, and she whispers and just the two of us, and she whispers and just the two of us, and she whispers to me, she said, "God wants you to trust to me, she said, "God wants you to trust to me, she said, "God wants you to trust him for more.

him for more. him for more. This is not the end, this is the This is not the end, this is the This is not the end, this is the beginning. beginning. beginning. He has more that he wants to do." He has more that he wants to do." He has more that he wants to do." And honestly, Carey, it was like a a And honestly, Carey, it was like a a And honestly, Carey, it was like a a spiritual kick in the rear, spiritual kick in the rear, spiritual kick in the rear, um you know, that God doesn't want me um you know, that God doesn't want me um you know, that God doesn't want me looking back looking back looking back with regret after regret. He wants me to with regret after regret. He wants me to with regret after regret. He wants me to be focused on the future, and uh it was be focused on the future, and uh it was be focused on the future, and uh it was just um it was something I needed at the just um it was something I needed at the just um it was something I needed at the time. time. time. So, I want to unpack that because what So, I want to unpack that because what So, I want to unpack that because what it brought me back to was 20 years ago it brought me back to was 20 years ago it brought me back to was 20 years ago we opened up our first facility, we opened up our first facility, we opened up our first facility, and it was that day. The room was and it was that day. The room was and it was that day. The room was packed. It was a major accomplishment. packed. It was a major accomplishment. packed. It was a major accomplishment. Everybody was celebrating. I was on the Everybody was celebrating. I was on the Everybody was celebrating. I was on the front row with my wife, front row with my wife, front row with my wife, and I was trying to be happy, but she and I was trying to be happy, but she and I was trying to be happy, but she was crying, and she wasn't crying tears was crying, and she wasn't crying tears was crying, and she wasn't crying tears of delight. She was of delight. She was of delight. She was crying tears of of of bitterness and crying tears of of of bitterness and crying tears of of of bitterness and sadness and resentment because of what sadness and resentment because of what sadness and resentment because of what that that that campaign and that project had cost us. campaign and that project had cost us. campaign and that project had cost us. And I wasn't nearly as dialed into the And I wasn't nearly as dialed into the And I wasn't nearly as dialed into the regret as I should have been in that regret as I should have been in that regret as I should have been in that season, and we've made a lot of progress season, and we've made a lot of progress season, and we've made a lot of progress in the last 25 years.

in the last 25 years. in the last 25 years. But But But man, I mean, when you look back on that, man, I mean, when you look back on that, man, I mean, when you look back on that, how did God wants you to trust him for how did God wants you to trust him for how did God wants you to trust him for more and not just feel like a weight more and not just feel like a weight more and not just feel like a weight that felt unbearable. Because when we that felt unbearable. Because when we that felt unbearable. Because when we all look back on moments like that, and all look back on moments like that, and all look back on moments like that, and you talk a lot about it in your latest you talk a lot about it in your latest you talk a lot about it in your latest book, um book, um book, um there's a big cost to leadership that is there's a big cost to leadership that is there's a big cost to leadership that is heavy. heavy. heavy. There is. There's no question about it. There is. There's no question about it. There is. There's no question about it. I think for me, um I knew God was I think for me, um I knew God was I think for me, um I knew God was speaking. speaking. speaking. And when you have that moment when God And when you have that moment when God And when you have that moment when God is speaking to you, uh you you tend to is speaking to you, uh you you tend to is speaking to you, uh you you tend to pay attention. You listen. pay attention. You listen. pay attention. You listen. I I knew God was speaking through this I I knew God was speaking through this I I knew God was speaking through this woman to me. Um and uh woman to me. Um and uh woman to me. Um and uh on my drive home from that event, I had on my drive home from that event, I had on my drive home from that event, I had one of the greatest celebrations of my one of the greatest celebrations of my one of the greatest celebrations of my life. life. life. I mean, I was in tears. I was speeding. I mean, I was in tears. I was speeding. I mean, I was in tears. I was speeding. I was going 90 some odd miles an hour on I was going 90 some odd miles an hour on I was going 90 some odd miles an hour on the freeway, um without even realizing the freeway, um without even realizing the freeway, um without even realizing it. I mean, I was celebrating. The tears it. I mean, I was celebrating. The tears it. I mean, I was celebrating. The tears were flowing because I knew God had were flowing because I knew God had were flowing because I knew God had spoken to me. I think there are a lot of spoken to me. I think there are a lot of spoken to me. I think there are a lot of your listeners who are going through a your listeners who are going through a your listeners who are going through a real heavy time.

real heavy time. real heavy time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. need a word from God. They need to know need a word from God. They need to know need a word from God. They need to know that God is with them. They're not that God is with them. They're not that God is with them. They're not alone. alone. alone. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And at that moment, I knew that yes, it And at that moment, I knew that yes, it And at that moment, I knew that yes, it had been a an arduous journey, had been a an arduous journey, had been a an arduous journey, but God had been with me through the but God had been with me through the but God had been with me through the entire thing, and he had kept my entire thing, and he had kept my entire thing, and he had kept my children safe. Uh I'm a good father. I'm children safe. Uh I'm a good father. I'm children safe. Uh I'm a good father. I'm a good husband. My children, my home was a good husband. My children, my home was a good husband. My children, my home was intact. Um I had a lot to be grateful intact. Um I had a lot to be grateful intact. Um I had a lot to be grateful for. And it wasn't time for me to look for. And it wasn't time for me to look for. And it wasn't time for me to look back. I needed to look forward because back. I needed to look forward because back. I needed to look forward because there are still millions of people that there are still millions of people that there are still millions of people that are lost, uh that need a a savior. are lost, uh that need a a savior. are lost, uh that need a a savior. So, we all have interesting stories. I'm So, we all have interesting stories. I'm So, we all have interesting stories. I'm really fascinated by people's origin really fascinated by people's origin really fascinated by people's origin story, and I've I've done that hundreds story, and I've I've done that hundreds story, and I've I've done that hundreds of times on this podcast, but you have of times on this podcast, but you have of times on this podcast, but you have a particularly a particularly a particularly profound, memorable, profound, memorable, profound, memorable, tragic origin story. And I'd love for tragic origin story. And I'd love for tragic origin story. And I'd love for you to go back to your childhood, and you to go back to your childhood, and you to go back to your childhood, and maybe take us back to a couple of maybe take us back to a couple of maybe take us back to a couple of pivotal moments pivotal moments pivotal moments early in your childhood uh early in your childhood uh early in your childhood uh related to who you would become.

related to who you would become. related to who you would become. Yeah, and I I I'll give you the the Yeah, and I I I'll give you the the Yeah, and I I I'll give you the the shorter version, but uh shorter version, but uh shorter version, but uh when I was 12, my parents were scheduled when I was 12, my parents were scheduled when I was 12, my parents were scheduled to go to a business meeting, um to go to a business meeting, um to go to a business meeting, um and I was supposed to stay home with my and I was supposed to stay home with my and I was supposed to stay home with my two younger brothers and sister with a two younger brothers and sister with a two younger brothers and sister with a babysitter. Babysitter was late. So, my babysitter. Babysitter was late. So, my babysitter. Babysitter was late. So, my dad said, "Hop in the car, you have to dad said, "Hop in the car, you have to dad said, "Hop in the car, you have to go with us." My dad was halfway down the go with us." My dad was halfway down the go with us." My dad was halfway down the road, glanced in his rearview mirror, road, glanced in his rearview mirror, road, glanced in his rearview mirror, and he spotted the babysitter pulling and he spotted the babysitter pulling and he spotted the babysitter pulling into our driveway. And so, my dad made a into our driveway. And so, my dad made a into our driveway. And so, my dad made a U-turn, dropped the four of us kids off. U-turn, dropped the four of us kids off. U-turn, dropped the four of us kids off. We would spend the night with a We would spend the night with a We would spend the night with a babysitter after all. babysitter after all. babysitter after all. It was about an hour and a half later, It was about an hour and a half later, It was about an hour and a half later, um there was a knock at our door. I ran um there was a knock at our door. I ran um there was a knock at our door. I ran to the door, and there standing in front to the door, and there standing in front to the door, and there standing in front of me were two uniformed police of me were two uniformed police of me were two uniformed police officers. officers. officers. And they'd come to deliver the news that And they'd come to deliver the news that And they'd come to deliver the news that our parents had been hit by a drunken our parents had been hit by a drunken our parents had been hit by a drunken driver. driver. driver. Uh my father had been killed instantly. Uh my father had been killed instantly. Uh my father had been killed instantly. My mother was seriously injured in the My mother was seriously injured in the My mother was seriously injured in the hospital fighting for her life. hospital fighting for her life. hospital fighting for her life. And uh Carrie, I'll never forget that And uh Carrie, I'll never forget that And uh Carrie, I'll never forget that night uh because night uh because night uh because um I didn't know what was going to um I didn't know what was going to um I didn't know what was going to happen next. Mhm. Police officer steps happen next. Mhm. Police officer steps happen next. Mhm. Police officer steps up to the porch, a number of our friends up to the porch, a number of our friends up to the porch, a number of our friends and neighbors had gathered in the front and neighbors had gathered in the front and neighbors had gathered in the front yard, yard, yard, and he addresses the crowd. And he just and he addresses the crowd. And he just and he addresses the crowd. And he just said, "Is there anyone here who's said, "Is there anyone here who's said, "Is there anyone here who's willing to take the four children home willing to take the four children home willing to take the four children home with them?

with them? with them? If not, we'll have to take them downtown If not, we'll have to take them downtown If not, we'll have to take them downtown to the station." to the station." to the station." And that night, a young couple, new And that night, a young couple, new And that night, a young couple, new Christians, Christians, Christians, raised their hand, and they said, "We'll raised their hand, and they said, "We'll raised their hand, and they said, "We'll take them." take them." take them." And um Bill and Lavada Davis, amazing And um Bill and Lavada Davis, amazing And um Bill and Lavada Davis, amazing people, um people, um people, um took us into their home. Now, all they took us into their home. Now, all they took us into their home. Now, all they owned was a single wide trailer. owned was a single wide trailer. owned was a single wide trailer. They had children of their own, and so They had children of their own, and so They had children of their own, and so 10 of us lived in a trailer for about a 10 of us lived in a trailer for about a 10 of us lived in a trailer for about a year. year. year. Uh these people wrapped their arms Uh these people wrapped their arms Uh these people wrapped their arms around us, they sacrificed their around us, they sacrificed their around us, they sacrificed their privacy, they drained their savings privacy, they drained their savings privacy, they drained their savings account so four kids could have a home. account so four kids could have a home. account so four kids could have a home. So, my mom gets out of the hospital, um So, my mom gets out of the hospital, um So, my mom gets out of the hospital, um she doesn't have a college degree, she she doesn't have a college degree, she she doesn't have a college degree, she takes on two part-time jobs, takes on two part-time jobs, takes on two part-time jobs, and uh so, at the age of 12, and uh so, at the age of 12, and uh so, at the age of 12, essentially, I became my mom's business essentially, I became my mom's business essentially, I became my mom's business partner and had to take a leadership partner and had to take a leadership partner and had to take a leadership role in the home. role in the home. role in the home. And I have to believe that in those And I have to believe that in those And I have to believe that in those early days, I learned a lot about early days, I learned a lot about early days, I learned a lot about leadership that really leadership that really leadership that really really transferred to what I'm doing really transferred to what I'm doing really transferred to what I'm doing with Convoy of Hope. And so, a very with Convoy of Hope. And so, a very with Convoy of Hope. And so, a very difficult time. Our family didn't have difficult time. Our family didn't have difficult time. Our family didn't have insurance. The man who hit them didn't insurance. The man who hit them didn't insurance. The man who hit them didn't have insurance. So, family on welfare, have insurance. So, family on welfare, have insurance. So, family on welfare, food stamps, cupboards bare, our shoes food stamps, cupboards bare, our shoes food stamps, cupboards bare, our shoes had holes in them. But, you know, we had holes in them. But, you know, we had holes in them. But, you know, we experienced the pain, the shame of experienced the pain, the shame of experienced the pain, the shame of poverty. But, we also experienced the poverty. But, we also experienced the poverty. But, we also experienced the power of kindness.

power of kindness. power of kindness. Because people like the Davises wrapped Because people like the Davises wrapped Because people like the Davises wrapped their arms around us at a local church. their arms around us at a local church. their arms around us at a local church. They wrapped their arms and said, They wrapped their arms and said, They wrapped their arms and said, "God has a plan for your life." Bill "God has a plan for your life." Bill "God has a plan for your life." Bill Davis told me one day, he saw I was Davis told me one day, he saw I was Davis told me one day, he saw I was hurting and he just said, "Hey, Hal, hurting and he just said, "Hey, Hal, hurting and he just said, "Hey, Hal, don't allow the tragedy of your youth to don't allow the tragedy of your youth to don't allow the tragedy of your youth to become a lifelong excuse. Because where become a lifelong excuse. Because where become a lifelong excuse. Because where you start in life doesn't have to you start in life doesn't have to you start in life doesn't have to dictate where you end." dictate where you end." dictate where you end." That kind of love, that kind of That kind of love, that kind of That kind of love, that kind of kindness, that kind of care really kindness, that kind of care really kindness, that kind of care really carried me through carried me through carried me through up until adulthood. up until adulthood. up until adulthood. I've heard that story more than once and I've heard that story more than once and I've heard that story more than once and it gets me every time. I just want to it gets me every time. I just want to it gets me every time. I just want to say I'm really sorry say I'm really sorry say I'm really sorry about what happened to you, to your dad, about what happened to you, to your dad, about what happened to you, to your dad, to your mom, to your siblings. to your mom, to your siblings. to your mom, to your siblings. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. How did you How did you How did you How did you process that as a How did you process that as a How did you process that as a 12-year-old? And then how have you 12-year-old? And then how have you 12-year-old? And then how have you processed that in in ensuing decades? processed that in in ensuing decades? processed that in in ensuing decades? I don't think I processed it very well. I don't think I processed it very well. I don't think I processed it very well. Um you know, I think uh I wish I had had Um you know, I think uh I wish I had had Um you know, I think uh I wish I had had a counselor. I wish I had had a a counselor. I wish I had had a a counselor. I wish I had had a therapist, a pastor, you know, uh therapist, a pastor, you know, uh therapist, a pastor, you know, uh somebody to talk to. Um somebody to talk to. Um somebody to talk to. Um I had a youth pastor, several youth I had a youth pastor, several youth I had a youth pastor, several youth pastors who were amazing, but they pastors who were amazing, but they pastors who were amazing, but they weren't professionals. And I was dealing weren't professionals. And I was dealing weren't professionals. And I was dealing with a lot of really hard questions, you with a lot of really hard questions, you with a lot of really hard questions, you know? God, did you cause my father to know? God, did you cause my father to know? God, did you cause my father to die?

die? die? It just happened by chance It just happened by chance It just happened by chance or is there a purpose in all of it? or is there a purpose in all of it? or is there a purpose in all of it? I think it was very difficult for me to I think it was very difficult for me to I think it was very difficult for me to process it. And I would say this, I'd go process it. And I would say this, I'd go process it. And I would say this, I'd go this far. If it wasn't for the kindness this far. If it wasn't for the kindness this far. If it wasn't for the kindness of the people in that church, of the people in that church, of the people in that church, I would have chosen a life of I would have chosen a life of I would have chosen a life of bitterness. bitterness. bitterness. But because of their kindness, But because of their kindness, But because of their kindness, I believe that God loved me and I I believe that God loved me and I I believe that God loved me and I believe that God was good. believe that God was good. believe that God was good. Now, please please know there was a lot Now, please please know there was a lot Now, please please know there was a lot of questions about injustice. of questions about injustice. of questions about injustice. I didn't think it was just that my I didn't think it was just that my I didn't think it was just that my father was taken. I mean, he was a great father was taken. I mean, he was a great father was taken. I mean, he was a great man. He was a giving man, very generous. man. He was a giving man, very generous. man. He was a giving man, very generous. He gave away our car. He gave away our He gave away our car. He gave away our He gave away our car. He gave away our couch. I mean, he was just a very giving couch. I mean, he was just a very giving couch. I mean, he was just a very giving person. person. person. I thought it was unjust that the man who I thought it was unjust that the man who I thought it was unjust that the man who hit him hit him hit him could walk out of jail 48 hours later could walk out of jail 48 hours later could walk out of jail 48 hours later with no consequence whatsoever. with no consequence whatsoever. with no consequence whatsoever. So, as a youth trying to just process So, as a youth trying to just process So, as a youth trying to just process that saying, "God, where are you? that saying, "God, where are you? that saying, "God, where are you? Where's the justice in all of this?" That was hard. But again, it was the That was hard. But again, it was the kindness of people in the church I think kindness of people in the church I think kindness of people in the church I think that kept me from really choosing a life that kept me from really choosing a life that kept me from really choosing a life of bitterness.

of bitterness. of bitterness. It's funny that you use the term It's funny that you use the term It's funny that you use the term bitterness because we've we've spent bitterness because we've we've spent bitterness because we've we've spent some time together. We've shared a meal some time together. We've shared a meal some time together. We've shared a meal or two together, etc. And I feel like or two together, etc. And I feel like or two together, etc. And I feel like I've I've gotten to know you beyond I've I've gotten to know you beyond I've I've gotten to know you beyond just, you know, an interview. just, you know, an interview. just, you know, an interview. And I That was going to be my next And I That was going to be my next And I That was going to be my next question. If there's one word that does question. If there's one word that does question. If there's one word that does not describe Hal Donaldson, it's bitter. not describe Hal Donaldson, it's bitter. not describe Hal Donaldson, it's bitter. And yet I know people who have been And yet I know people who have been And yet I know people who have been through, you know, not that it's a through, you know, not that it's a through, you know, not that it's a comparison game, but a lot less, take comparison game, but a lot less, take comparison game, but a lot less, take away the air quotes, away the air quotes, away the air quotes, um um um than you and are very bitter. Are very, than you and are very bitter. Are very, than you and are very bitter. Are very, you know, that chip on the shoulder that you know, that chip on the shoulder that you know, that chip on the shoulder that never goes away. The bitterness toward never goes away. The bitterness toward never goes away. The bitterness toward God, the bitterness toward life. God, the bitterness toward life. God, the bitterness toward life. What did What did you do to combat that? What did What did you do to combat that? What did What did you do to combat that? You said it was the generosity of the You said it was the generosity of the You said it was the generosity of the church and the people who took you in, church and the people who took you in, church and the people who took you in, but was it ever a battle? How did How but was it ever a battle? How did How but was it ever a battle? How did How did you battle back against any did you battle back against any did you battle back against any bitterness? bitterness? bitterness? it I think it it's it's been a a it I think it it's it's been a a it I think it it's it's been a a lifelong battle. lifelong battle. lifelong battle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um you know, I don't think you ever get Um you know, I don't think you ever get Um you know, I don't think you ever get over that. Um you know, there are some over that. Um you know, there are some over that. Um you know, there are some there are some painful experiences that there are some painful experiences that there are some painful experiences that you never get over. You have to you never get over. You have to you never get over. You have to continually pray about it, process it.

continually pray about it, process it. continually pray about it, process it. You know, growing up without a father um You know, growing up without a father um You know, growing up without a father um and not having a father who could just and not having a father who could just and not having a father who could just experience the the joyful moments, who experience the the joyful moments, who experience the the joyful moments, who could help me through the difficult could help me through the difficult could help me through the difficult times. Yeah, that's that's been tough. times. Yeah, that's that's been tough. times. Yeah, that's that's been tough. Um Um Um and I I don't want to candy coat it, you and I I don't want to candy coat it, you and I I don't want to candy coat it, you know, and tell you that it hasn't been know, and tell you that it hasn't been know, and tell you that it hasn't been hard. There have been times that uh hard. There have been times that uh hard. There have been times that uh yeah, I I've I've wished my dad was with yeah, I I've I've wished my dad was with yeah, I I've I've wished my dad was with me. Um it sure would have made it a lot me. Um it sure would have made it a lot me. Um it sure would have made it a lot easier. easier. easier. But um But um But um yeah, so I I think I think it's an yeah, so I I think I think it's an yeah, so I I think I think it's an ongoing process, but at an early age um ongoing process, but at an early age um ongoing process, but at an early age um I made a decision that God was good. I made a decision that God was good. I made a decision that God was good. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I didn't understand it. I didn't understand it. I didn't understand it. But I But I But I all of it. But But I believed he was all of it. But But I believed he was all of it. But But I believed he was good. good. good. And if he's good, then I have to trust And if he's good, then I have to trust And if he's good, then I have to trust him. him. him. It's hard at times, but I have to trust It's hard at times, but I have to trust It's hard at times, but I have to trust him. So, I think as a teenager I decided him. So, I think as a teenager I decided him. So, I think as a teenager I decided God's good. God's good. God's good. Wow. I was I was going to ask you, and Wow. I was I was going to ask you, and Wow. I was I was going to ask you, and you may have already answered it, and we you may have already answered it, and we you may have already answered it, and we can move on. can move on. can move on. But I imagine that there are more than a But I imagine that there are more than a But I imagine that there are more than a couple of listeners who are struggling couple of listeners who are struggling couple of listeners who are struggling with bitterness right now for a variety with bitterness right now for a variety with bitterness right now for a variety of reasons. Something that happened in of reasons. Something that happened in of reasons. Something that happened in their childhood, to their marriage, to a their childhood, to their marriage, to a their childhood, to their marriage, to a child, to you know, their leadership.

child, to you know, their leadership. child, to you know, their leadership. They got fired. They They got They got fired. They They got They got fired. They They got mistreated. I mean, you and I hear those mistreated. I mean, you and I hear those mistreated. I mean, you and I hear those stories every day. stories every day. stories every day. If you had advice to people who struggle If you had advice to people who struggle If you had advice to people who struggle with bitterness, what What would you with bitterness, what What would you with bitterness, what What would you tell them? tell them? tell them? Yeah, I think it's very similar to what Yeah, I think it's very similar to what Yeah, I think it's very similar to what the the the the elderly donor was telling me. the elderly donor was telling me. the elderly donor was telling me. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Do your best to look in the you know, Do your best to look in the you know, Do your best to look in the you know, the the front the the windshield and not the the front the the windshield and not the the front the the windshield and not the rearview mirror. And I have to the rearview mirror. And I have to the rearview mirror. And I have to battle that myself. I Everyone does. battle that myself. I Everyone does. battle that myself. I Everyone does. But God has so many great things in But God has so many great things in But God has so many great things in store for you. Um keep looking ahead and store for you. Um keep looking ahead and store for you. Um keep looking ahead and don't look back. don't look back. don't look back. Um Um Um you know, I think for me um you know, I think for me um you know, I think for me um for me it's probably been the fact that for me it's probably been the fact that for me it's probably been the fact that I've really surrounded myself with some I've really surrounded myself with some I've really surrounded myself with some great people. great people. great people. Um I I I think God has done some amazing Um I I I think God has done some amazing Um I I I think God has done some amazing things in bringing people around me who things in bringing people around me who things in bringing people around me who uh have held hold me accountable and uh have held hold me accountable and uh have held hold me accountable and give me perspective. And uh so if you're give me perspective. And uh so if you're give me perspective. And uh so if you're struggling with bitterness, uh you know, struggling with bitterness, uh you know, struggling with bitterness, uh you know, one thing I would say is make sure one thing I would say is make sure one thing I would say is make sure you're surrounding yourself with the you're surrounding yourself with the you're surrounding yourself with the right people. Don't surround yourself right people. Don't surround yourself right people. Don't surround yourself with opportunists. People who tell you with opportunists. People who tell you with opportunists. People who tell you what you want to hear. Surround yourself what you want to hear. Surround yourself what you want to hear. Surround yourself with people who are godly people who with people who are godly people who with people who are godly people who pray, who um who pray, who um who pray, who um who they can speak on behalf of the Lord they can speak on behalf of the Lord they can speak on behalf of the Lord because they're close to God. And they because they're close to God. And they because they're close to God. And they can speak to you in your time of need.

can speak to you in your time of need. can speak to you in your time of need. Um I'd love to fast forward a couple Um I'd love to fast forward a couple Um I'd love to fast forward a couple years. Take us into your later teen years. Take us into your later teen years. Take us into your later teen years as you're thinking about what to years as you're thinking about what to years as you're thinking about what to do with your life. And you know, I'm do with your life. And you know, I'm do with your life. And you know, I'm sure at that point you didn't have a lot sure at that point you didn't have a lot sure at that point you didn't have a lot of advantages. You mentioned welfare, of advantages. You mentioned welfare, of advantages. You mentioned welfare, food stamps, a mother who was I think food stamps, a mother who was I think food stamps, a mother who was I think chronically ill, correct? chronically ill, correct? chronically ill, correct? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Correct. Correct. Being taken in by a family who again was Being taken in by a family who again was Being taken in by a family who again was not a family of means, just a huge not a family of means, just a huge not a family of means, just a huge heart. Where did that leave you at you heart. Where did that leave you at you heart. Where did that leave you at you know, your late teens, early 20s as know, your late teens, early 20s as know, your late teens, early 20s as you're making decisions about how you're you're making decisions about how you're you're making decisions about how you're going to live your life? going to live your life? going to live your life? Yeah, you know, when you're raised poor, Yeah, you know, when you're raised poor, Yeah, you know, when you're raised poor, you begin this quest not to be poor you begin this quest not to be poor you begin this quest not to be poor anymore. And that certainly was the anymore. And that certainly was the anymore. And that certainly was the journey I was on and I I somehow I journey I was on and I I somehow I journey I was on and I I somehow I thought the best way to escape poverty thought the best way to escape poverty thought the best way to escape poverty and my circumstances was through and my circumstances was through and my circumstances was through education. And so I went and earned education. And so I went and earned education. And so I went and earned several degrees and uh I began writing several degrees and uh I began writing several degrees and uh I began writing books in my 20s. books in my 20s. books in my 20s. Um and uh just incredible doors began to Um and uh just incredible doors began to Um and uh just incredible doors began to open up for me in my 20s to begin open up for me in my 20s to begin open up for me in my 20s to begin writing books. And one of those books writing books. And one of those books writing books. And one of those books would be a life changer. Um some would be a life changer. Um some would be a life changer. Um some missionaries in Calcutta, India, invited missionaries in Calcutta, India, invited missionaries in Calcutta, India, invited me to come and write their book, and um me to come and write their book, and um me to come and write their book, and um I would end up writing multiple books I would end up writing multiple books I would end up writing multiple books for them, but uh on this initial visit for them, but uh on this initial visit for them, but uh on this initial visit to Calcutta, they asked me to uh to Calcutta, they asked me to uh to Calcutta, they asked me to uh interview Mother Teresa for their book.

interview Mother Teresa for their book. interview Mother Teresa for their book. And uh it was in the course of And uh it was in the course of And uh it was in the course of interviewing Mother Teresa, where she interviewing Mother Teresa, where she interviewing Mother Teresa, where she just simply asked me, um "Young man, just simply asked me, um "Young man, just simply asked me, um "Young man, what are you doing to help the poor and what are you doing to help the poor and what are you doing to help the poor and the suffering?" the suffering?" the suffering?" And I figured I better not lie to her, And I figured I better not lie to her, And I figured I better not lie to her, better tell her the truth, right? better tell her the truth, right? better tell her the truth, right? It's Mother Teresa. It's Mother Teresa. It's Mother Teresa. It's Mother Teresa. And so I just said, It's Mother Teresa. And so I just said, It's Mother Teresa. And so I just said, "I'm really not doing much of anything." "I'm really not doing much of anything." "I'm really not doing much of anything." And she just said, "Well, And she just said, "Well, And she just said, "Well, um everyone can do something. Just do um everyone can do something. Just do um everyone can do something. Just do the next kind thing that God puts in the next kind thing that God puts in the next kind thing that God puts in front of you." front of you." front of you." And um And um And um I went back to my hotel room that night, I went back to my hotel room that night, I went back to my hotel room that night, and and honestly, I was feeling ashamed, and and honestly, I was feeling ashamed, and and honestly, I was feeling ashamed, I was feeling guilty. I was staying in I was feeling guilty. I was staying in I was feeling guilty. I was staying in the Oberoi Grand Hotel. It's a five-star the Oberoi Grand Hotel. It's a five-star the Oberoi Grand Hotel. It's a five-star hotel, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful hotel, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful hotel, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful place, place, place, but surrounded by people of poverty, but surrounded by people of poverty, but surrounded by people of poverty, uh homeless. uh homeless. uh homeless. And um I felt so guilty being there, um And um I felt so guilty being there, um And um I felt so guilty being there, um and living in luxury while others were and living in luxury while others were and living in luxury while others were struggling. struggling. struggling. Um I came back to the States, and um Um I came back to the States, and um Um I came back to the States, and um this is probably more than you're asking this is probably more than you're asking this is probably more than you're asking for, but I came back to the I I I came for, but I came back to the I I I came for, but I came back to the I I I came back um to the States, back um to the States, back um to the States, and I was just saying, "God, I need to and I was just saying, "God, I need to and I was just saying, "God, I need to change. My priorities need to change.

change. My priorities need to change. change. My priorities need to change. Something has to change in my heart. Um Something has to change in my heart. Um Something has to change in my heart. Um I've forgotten where I've come from. I've forgotten where I've come from. I've forgotten where I've come from. And um And um And um I began to pray, "What do I do?" I began to pray, "What do I do?" I began to pray, "What do I do?" And I know this sounds a little bit And I know this sounds a little bit And I know this sounds a little bit spooky, Carey, but I really felt like spooky, Carey, but I really felt like spooky, Carey, but I really felt like God God God um directed me to go get a pencil and a um directed me to go get a pencil and a um directed me to go get a pencil and a pad, and I wrote down eight cities. And pad, and I wrote down eight cities. And pad, and I wrote down eight cities. And I felt like God was telling me to travel I felt like God was telling me to travel I felt like God was telling me to travel to eight cities and to live in the to eight cities and to live in the to eight cities and to live in the streets for 3 days and 3 nights. I went streets for 3 days and 3 nights. I went streets for 3 days and 3 nights. I went to Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, D.C., New to Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, D.C., New to Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, D.C., New York, major cities. I walked the streets York, major cities. I walked the streets York, major cities. I walked the streets with a hidden tape recorder interviewing with a hidden tape recorder interviewing with a hidden tape recorder interviewing drug addicts and gang members, drug addicts and gang members, drug addicts and gang members, prostitutes, runaways, the homeless. I prostitutes, runaways, the homeless. I prostitutes, runaways, the homeless. I rode with the police on the midnight rode with the police on the midnight rode with the police on the midnight shift. And all I can tell you is that, shift. And all I can tell you is that, shift. And all I can tell you is that, you know, my heart was broken you know, my heart was broken you know, my heart was broken in the streets of America. in the streets of America. in the streets of America. And I came back from one of those trips And I came back from one of those trips And I came back from one of those trips and um and um and um I loaded up a pickup truck with I loaded up a pickup truck with I loaded up a pickup truck with groceries, start passing them out to uh groceries, start passing them out to uh groceries, start passing them out to uh working poor families, migrant farm working poor families, migrant farm working poor families, migrant farm workers. workers. workers. And that was the start of Convoy of Hope And that was the start of Convoy of Hope And that was the start of Convoy of Hope 30 years ago. 30 years ago. 30 years ago. My goodness. Okay, I want to back up. My goodness. Okay, I want to back up. My goodness. Okay, I want to back up. This is fascinating. So, education This is fascinating. So, education This is fascinating. So, education is the ticket. What were your degrees is the ticket. What were your degrees is the ticket. What were your degrees in? And tell me a little bit more about in? And tell me a little bit more about in? And tell me a little bit more about the books, cuz you gave something up to the books, cuz you gave something up to the books, cuz you gave something up to start this and I'm very interested in start this and I'm very interested in start this and I'm very interested in what you sacrificed to start Convoy.

what you sacrificed to start Convoy. what you sacrificed to start Convoy. Yeah, um so I was uh I was a Yeah, um so I was uh I was a Yeah, um so I was uh I was a ghostwriter. ghostwriter. ghostwriter. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, uh I started at age 23, had my first So, uh I started at age 23, had my first So, uh I started at age 23, had my first opportunity to uh be a ghostwriter, uh opportunity to uh be a ghostwriter, uh opportunity to uh be a ghostwriter, uh and that was relayed uh parlayed into and that was relayed uh parlayed into and that was relayed uh parlayed into multiple book projects. Um I think I've multiple book projects. Um I think I've multiple book projects. Um I think I've written over 30 books uh for people. written over 30 books uh for people. written over 30 books uh for people. Yeah, I've done a lot of ghostwriting. Yeah, I've done a lot of ghostwriting. Yeah, I've done a lot of ghostwriting. And you know, as a result, um And you know, as a result, um And you know, as a result, um it just opened a lot of doors. I saw a it just opened a lot of doors. I saw a it just opened a lot of doors. I saw a lot of I met a lot of people, lot of I met a lot of people, lot of I met a lot of people, um um um saw a lot of things that someone in saw a lot of things that someone in saw a lot of things that someone in their 20s wouldn't. Um and so their 20s wouldn't. Um and so their 20s wouldn't. Um and so did you see? What did you see? I'm did you see? What did you see? I'm did you see? What did you see? I'm curious. I feel like I had a similar curious. I feel like I had a similar curious. I feel like I had a similar thing in my 20s. thing in my 20s. thing in my 20s. Yeah, you know what is really Yeah, you know what is really Yeah, you know what is really interesting is that I was rubbing interesting is that I was rubbing interesting is that I was rubbing shoulders with the rich and famous. shoulders with the rich and famous. shoulders with the rich and famous. Yep. Yep. Yep. And I could see that they weren't happy. And I could see that they weren't happy. And I could see that they weren't happy. They weren't fulfilled. And what I They weren't fulfilled. And what I They weren't fulfilled. And what I thought I was striving for in life um thought I was striving for in life um thought I was striving for in life um really wasn't fulfilling. It wasn't what really wasn't fulfilling. It wasn't what really wasn't fulfilling. It wasn't what I was looking for. And I saw that in the I was looking for. And I saw that in the I was looking for. And I saw that in the lives of people who were, you know, lives of people who were, you know, lives of people who were, you know, multi-multi-millionaires, multi-multi-millionaires, multi-multi-millionaires, um um um others who were celebrities, uh but others who were celebrities, uh but others who were celebrities, uh but they didn't seem happy to me. And I saw they didn't seem happy to me. And I saw they didn't seem happy to me. And I saw that in my 20s.

that in my 20s. that in my 20s. Huh. Huh. Huh. How did those doors open for you in your How did those doors open for you in your How did those doors open for you in your early 20s? We have a lot of young early 20s? We have a lot of young early 20s? We have a lot of young listening to the show. listening to the show. listening to the show. Yeah. Um Yeah. Um Yeah. Um I I I I know it's it's a cliche, but God did I know it's it's a cliche, but God did I know it's it's a cliche, but God did some things that mirac- were miraculous. some things that mirac- were miraculous. some things that mirac- were miraculous. And I'll just tell you in a nutshell. Um And I'll just tell you in a nutshell. Um And I'll just tell you in a nutshell. Um there's this I was in college, and there there's this I was in college, and there there's this I was in college, and there was this one man that I was able to was this one man that I was able to was this one man that I was able to help. He and his wife were a young help. He and his wife were a young help. He and his wife were a young couple in college. couple in college. couple in college. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a few extra dollars, and I And I had a few extra dollars, and I And I had a few extra dollars, and I would keep, you know, passing it their would keep, you know, passing it their would keep, you know, passing it their way. And that guy took it upon himself way. And that guy took it upon himself way. And that guy took it upon himself to go to a well-known established writer to go to a well-known established writer to go to a well-known established writer on my behalf. on my behalf. on my behalf. And um he's the one that set up the And um he's the one that set up the And um he's the one that set up the appointment for me to go and meet with appointment for me to go and meet with appointment for me to go and meet with this established writer. Um and um that this established writer. Um and um that this established writer. Um and um that just opened the door. It wouldn't have just opened the door. It wouldn't have just opened the door. It wouldn't have happened, I don't think, if I had not happened, I don't think, if I had not happened, I don't think, if I had not been generous with uh this young couple. been generous with uh this young couple. been generous with uh this young couple. Interesting. So, that opens a door. Interesting. So, that opens a door. Interesting. So, that opens a door. You've got multiple titles under your You've got multiple titles under your You've got multiple titles under your belt. You're how old when you meet belt. You're how old when you meet belt. You're how old when you meet Mother Teresa?

Mother Teresa? Mother Teresa? I was 29. I was 29. I was 29. 29. Okay, so you'd lived through your 29. Okay, so you'd lived through your 29. Okay, so you'd lived through your 20s, you'd had roughly a decade, eight 20s, you'd had roughly a decade, eight 20s, you'd had roughly a decade, eight or nine years of success. or nine years of success. or nine years of success. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're far from poverty at this point You're far from poverty at this point You're far from poverty at this point because you're making bank. Is that because you're making bank. Is that because you're making bank. Is that fair? fair? fair? Yes. That's totally fair. Yeah. Yes. That's totally fair. Yeah. Yes. That's totally fair. Yeah. Not a lot of people I think I'll have to Not a lot of people I think I'll have to Not a lot of people I think I'll have to Google this after, but I think Mother Google this after, but I think Mother Google this after, but I think Mother Teresa and Princess Diana died on the Teresa and Princess Diana died on the Teresa and Princess Diana died on the same day. I remember that day, 1997. I I same day. I remember that day, 1997. I I same day. I remember that day, 1997. I I could be totally wrong. Start a internet could be totally wrong. Start a internet could be totally wrong. Start a internet rumor. Somebody will correct us, or rumor. Somebody will correct us, or rumor. Somebody will correct us, or we'll cut that out. But yeah, she's been we'll cut that out. But yeah, she's been we'll cut that out. But yeah, she's been gone for a number of years now. gone for a number of years now. gone for a number of years now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not a lot of people had an opportunity Not a lot of people had an opportunity Not a lot of people had an opportunity to meet with her. Can you tell us about to meet with her. Can you tell us about to meet with her. Can you tell us about that meeting and what she was like? I've that meeting and what she was like? I've that meeting and what she was like? I've heard stories, but I I'd love to hear heard stories, but I I'd love to hear heard stories, but I I'd love to hear what you discovered about Mother Teresa. what you discovered about Mother Teresa. what you discovered about Mother Teresa. It was a lot different than what I It was a lot different than what I It was a lot different than what I thought. Uh I thought I was I thought thought. Uh I thought I was I thought thought. Uh I thought I was I thought she'd be wearing a halo, and you know, she'd be wearing a halo, and you know, she'd be wearing a halo, and you know, would be glowing, and uh you know, I would be glowing, and uh you know, I would be glowing, and uh you know, I mean, I wasn't sure what to expect, but mean, I wasn't sure what to expect, but mean, I wasn't sure what to expect, but she was so down-to-earth. Um at that she was so down-to-earth. Um at that she was so down-to-earth. Um at that time, she had was having terrible time, she had was having terrible time, she had was having terrible um problems with her ankles and feet and um problems with her ankles and feet and um problems with her ankles and feet and so she was barefoot and she was sliding so she was barefoot and she was sliding so she was barefoot and she was sliding on the on the cement and um on the on the cement and um on the on the cement and um Wow.

Wow. Wow. and we sat down on a on a on a bench and we sat down on a on a on a bench and we sat down on a on a on a bench together and um together and um together and um and I wanted to talk about the deep and I wanted to talk about the deep and I wanted to talk about the deep spiritual theological issues of the day spiritual theological issues of the day spiritual theological issues of the day Right. Right. Right. all all she wanted to talk about was my all all she wanted to talk about was my all all she wanted to talk about was my family and my wife and and my dreams and family and my wife and and my dreams and family and my wife and and my dreams and she wanted to talk about me, I wanted to she wanted to talk about me, I wanted to she wanted to talk about me, I wanted to talk about her. Um it just I'll never talk about her. Um it just I'll never talk about her. Um it just I'll never forget it. forget it. forget it. Hm. So, it was 6 days apart. I did a Hm. So, it was 6 days apart. I did a Hm. So, it was 6 days apart. I did a quick Google search. So, she died in quick Google search. So, she died in quick Google search. So, she died in September and Diana died at the end of September and Diana died at the end of September and Diana died at the end of August of 1997. Anyway, August of 1997. Anyway, August of 1997. Anyway, So, yeah, I've I've heard, you know, So, yeah, I've I've heard, you know, So, yeah, I've I've heard, you know, that her feet were malformed because she that her feet were malformed because she that her feet were malformed because she always took the smaller shoes etc. What always took the smaller shoes etc. What always took the smaller shoes etc. What else did you see about her? So, deep else did you see about her? So, deep else did you see about her? So, deep curiosity, very practical, not so much curiosity, very practical, not so much curiosity, very practical, not so much philosophical. philosophical. philosophical. What what kind of practical did you see? What what kind of practical did you see? What what kind of practical did you see? Um just the fact that she would be even Um just the fact that she would be even Um just the fact that she would be even concerned about my family, my wife um concerned about my family, my wife um concerned about my family, my wife um and uh what my future aspirations were.

and uh what my future aspirations were. and uh what my future aspirations were. Um here I was with uh you know, a Um here I was with uh you know, a Um here I was with uh you know, a notepad wanting to take notes on what notepad wanting to take notes on what notepad wanting to take notes on what she was saying, but um there wasn't a she was saying, but um there wasn't a she was saying, but um there wasn't a lot of note taking. Honestly, it was lot of note taking. Honestly, it was lot of note taking. Honestly, it was more her asking me questions. more her asking me questions. more her asking me questions. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. impressive you think about it. impressive you think about it. impressive you think about it. You know, you have a very similar vibe. You know, you have a very similar vibe. You know, you have a very similar vibe. You you you don't talk about yourself a You you you don't talk about yourself a You you you don't talk about yourself a lot. You're very interested in other lot. You're very interested in other lot. You're very interested in other people. Are there any other life lessons people. Are there any other life lessons people. Are there any other life lessons you would have pulled from that brief you would have pulled from that brief you would have pulled from that brief encounter with Mother Teresa? encounter with Mother Teresa? encounter with Mother Teresa? Yeah, you know, it was interesting is Yeah, you know, it was interesting is Yeah, you know, it was interesting is that um that um that um the missionary couple had started a the missionary couple had started a the missionary couple had started a feeding program and um feeding program and um feeding program and um these were the people that Mother Teresa these were the people that Mother Teresa these were the people that Mother Teresa was working with and um was working with and um was working with and um they also left an impression on me. But, they also left an impression on me. But, they also left an impression on me. But, to see the lack of competition between to see the lack of competition between to see the lack of competition between this missionary couple and Mother Teresa this missionary couple and Mother Teresa this missionary couple and Mother Teresa was quite impressive to me. They weren't was quite impressive to me. They weren't was quite impressive to me. They weren't competitors. competitors. competitors. They were working together to change They were working together to change They were working together to change just uh just uh just uh the future of the poor and the the future of the poor and the the future of the poor and the suffering. And um that's one of the suffering. And um that's one of the suffering. And um that's one of the things I took away is things I took away is things I took away is we're not in competition. We're on the we're not in competition. We're on the we're not in competition. We're on the same team.

same team. same team. Um Um Um that was quite impressive as well. that was quite impressive as well. that was quite impressive as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you're 29 years old. This changes So, you're 29 years old. This changes So, you're 29 years old. This changes your life. You go your life. You go your life. You go live on the streets for 3 days and 3 live on the streets for 3 days and 3 live on the streets for 3 days and 3 nights in eight major cities and you nights in eight major cities and you nights in eight major cities and you start this spectacular organization start this spectacular organization start this spectacular organization called Convoy of Hope, which sounds like called Convoy of Hope, which sounds like called Convoy of Hope, which sounds like a nice idea, but the scale is a nice idea, but the scale is a nice idea, but the scale is exceptional. As I've gotten to know what exceptional. As I've gotten to know what exceptional. As I've gotten to know what you do, it's it's it's blown me away. you do, it's it's it's blown me away. you do, it's it's it's blown me away. Um Um Um Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. How How did those first three decades, How How did those first three decades, How How did those first three decades, the lessons you learned as a young man, the lessons you learned as a young man, the lessons you learned as a young man, a young leader, set you up for a young leader, set you up for a young leader, set you up for running an organization with a footprint running an organization with a footprint running an organization with a footprint and the size and the scale and the and the size and the scale and the and the size and the scale and the impact of a Convoy of Hope? impact of a Convoy of Hope? impact of a Convoy of Hope? Yeah, I think uh Yeah, I think uh Yeah, I think uh I think I was probably um I think I was probably um I think I was probably um I didn't have some master plan. I didn't have some master plan. I didn't have some master plan. You know, I'm actually grateful that God You know, I'm actually grateful that God You know, I'm actually grateful that God didn't show me where this was headed didn't show me where this was headed didn't show me where this was headed because it would have freaked me out. because it would have freaked me out. because it would have freaked me out. been overwhelming.

been overwhelming. been overwhelming. Yeah, it would have been. Yeah, so um Yeah, it would have been. Yeah, so um Yeah, it would have been. Yeah, so um you know, I believe you know, I believe you know, I believe Vision is incremental. Vision is incremental. Vision is incremental. And I you know, God is just really And I you know, God is just really And I you know, God is just really showing me the next step, showed our showing me the next step, showed our showing me the next step, showed our team, showed our team the next step. And team, showed our team the next step. And team, showed our team the next step. And uh we're we've been obedient to that uh we're we've been obedient to that uh we're we've been obedient to that next step. next step. next step. And um although we have some And um although we have some And um although we have some some uh some uh some uh audacious goals, audacious goals, audacious goals, feeding a million children a day, um you feeding a million children a day, um you feeding a million children a day, um you know, etc. etc. Um know, etc. etc. Um know, etc. etc. Um it's still about just following the next it's still about just following the next it's still about just following the next step. step. step. That has not changed with Convoy. That has not changed with Convoy. That has not changed with Convoy. Um and um Um and um Um and um so I would I would have to say Carrie um so I would I would have to say Carrie um so I would I would have to say Carrie um I've kind of grown up with it. I've kind of grown up with it. I've kind of grown up with it. Step by step. Step by step. Step by step. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So you write in your latest book a lot So you write in your latest book a lot So you write in your latest book a lot about self-care and ambition about self-care and ambition about self-care and ambition etc. And you know, somebody listening etc. And you know, somebody listening etc. And you know, somebody listening this interview very casual, very this interview very casual, very this interview very casual, very relaxed, very focused, but there's a relaxed, very focused, but there's a relaxed, very focused, but there's a drive underneath all of that. Yeah. Um drive underneath all of that. Yeah. Um drive underneath all of that. Yeah. Um tell us a little bit how you've had to tell us a little bit how you've had to tell us a little bit how you've had to wrestle down for better or for worse wrestle down for better or for worse wrestle down for better or for worse that drive and ambition that you felt that drive and ambition that you felt that drive and ambition that you felt throughout your life, Hal.

throughout your life, Hal. throughout your life, Hal. Yeah, I think I think uh Yeah, I think I think uh Yeah, I think I think uh because of what I was doing, helping the because of what I was doing, helping the because of what I was doing, helping the poor and the suffering, I thought that I poor and the suffering, I thought that I poor and the suffering, I thought that I was inoculated was inoculated was inoculated from the consequences of a busy life. from the consequences of a busy life. from the consequences of a busy life. You know, um I thought that uh you know, You know, um I thought that uh you know, You know, um I thought that uh you know, lack of sleep, lack of nutrition, lack of sleep, lack of nutrition, lack of sleep, lack of nutrition, uh lack of exercise wouldn't catch up on uh lack of exercise wouldn't catch up on uh lack of exercise wouldn't catch up on me because me because me because I was doing the Lord's work, you know, I was doing the Lord's work, you know, I was doing the Lord's work, you know, and that certainly uh wasn't the case. and that certainly uh wasn't the case. and that certainly uh wasn't the case. And um And um And um you know, that would come back to haunt you know, that would come back to haunt you know, that would come back to haunt me with a health scare at some point. me with a health scare at some point. me with a health scare at some point. And And And you know, so um you know, so um you know, so um I think Carrie in the early days, I just I think Carrie in the early days, I just I think Carrie in the early days, I just I I I you know, I wouldn't call my ambition you know, I wouldn't call my ambition you know, I wouldn't call my ambition reckless. It wasn't reckless ambition. reckless. It wasn't reckless ambition. reckless. It wasn't reckless ambition. It was a desire to do the Lord's work. It was a desire to do the Lord's work. It was a desire to do the Lord's work. Just do the Lord's work and to take Just do the Lord's work and to take Just do the Lord's work and to take advantage of every opportunity he could advantage of every opportunity he could advantage of every opportunity he could give me. And you know, I I I guess I I give me. And you know, I I I guess I I give me. And you know, I I I guess I I learned that um learned that um learned that um that uh that uh that uh probably self-care is a partnership probably self-care is a partnership probably self-care is a partnership between me and God.

between me and God. between me and God. Um I have to do my part and then, you Um I have to do my part and then, you Um I have to do my part and then, you know, he does his. But it's a know, he does his. But it's a know, he does his. But it's a partnership. partnership. partnership. And um And um And um and I I guess I discovered too that and I I guess I discovered too that and I I guess I discovered too that self-care is not self-care is not self-care is not selfishness. selfishness. selfishness. For a long time I thought it was, For a long time I thought it was, For a long time I thought it was, but it's actually selflessness. but it's actually selflessness. but it's actually selflessness. Because the more we take care of Because the more we take care of Because the more we take care of ourselves, that means that we're not ourselves, that means that we're not ourselves, that means that we're not operating from a a point of deficit. operating from a a point of deficit. operating from a a point of deficit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um you know, I think for many years And um you know, I think for many years And um you know, I think for many years I was I was I was operating from a point a position of operating from a point a position of operating from a point a position of deficit that was really affecting my uh deficit that was really affecting my uh deficit that was really affecting my uh effectiveness. effectiveness. effectiveness. So, yeah, that's that part has been a So, yeah, that's that part has been a So, yeah, that's that part has been a journey, for sure. journey, for sure. journey, for sure. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, what what kept you running for a Yeah, what what kept you running for a Yeah, what what kept you running for a long time? I mean, you know, a lot of us long time? I mean, you know, a lot of us long time? I mean, you know, a lot of us and and and ambition, sometimes it gets and and and ambition, sometimes it gets and and and ambition, sometimes it gets out of control or drive that gets a out of control or drive that gets a out of control or drive that gets a little bit out of control. It's been little bit out of control. It's been little bit out of control. It's been part of my story, too, right? Almost 20 part of my story, too, right? Almost 20 part of my story, too, right? Almost 20 years ago I burned out. And that was a a years ago I burned out. And that was a a years ago I burned out. And that was a a very kind, in retrospect, wake-up call very kind, in retrospect, wake-up call very kind, in retrospect, wake-up call Yes. Yes. Yes. my life didn't fall apart. I could put my life didn't fall apart. I could put my life didn't fall apart. I could put it back together again pretty easily, it back together again pretty easily, it back together again pretty easily, but it was it was abrupt. So, what kind but it was it was abrupt. So, what kind but it was it was abrupt. So, what kind of price did you pay? And of price did you pay? And of price did you pay? And yeah, let's let's start there. What kind yeah, let's let's start there. What kind yeah, let's let's start there. What kind of price did you pay? What what what did of price did you pay? What what what did of price did you pay? What what what did you cheat, so to speak, to use Andy you cheat, so to speak, to use Andy you cheat, so to speak, to use Andy Stanley's language? And and what was the Stanley's language? And and what was the Stanley's language? And and what was the cost?

cost? cost? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I I think that uh Um I I think that uh Um I I think that uh you know, living on 5 hours a night of you know, living on 5 hours a night of you know, living on 5 hours a night of sleep, sleep, sleep, um you know, not really watching uh um you know, not really watching uh um you know, not really watching uh nutritionally what I was eating, because nutritionally what I was eating, because nutritionally what I was eating, because again you're traveling the world. again you're traveling the world. again you're traveling the world. Yes. Yes. Yes. And you know, it's not like you can And you know, it's not like you can And you know, it's not like you can really govern what you eat, and you're really govern what you eat, and you're really govern what you eat, and you're in some very desperate places. in some very desperate places. in some very desperate places. Uh and uh Uh and uh Uh and uh I think just living on the road was a I think just living on the road was a I think just living on the road was a was a big part of it. And you know, for was a big part of it. And you know, for was a big part of it. And you know, for me, I think um me, I think um me, I think um it it ended um it it ended um it it ended um at the age of 50, at the age of 50, at the age of 50, um I uh I had what I thought was a um I uh I had what I thought was a um I uh I had what I thought was a kidney stone. Actually, what it was was kidney stone. Actually, what it was was kidney stone. Actually, what it was was my heart. my heart. my heart. And they had to put two stents in my And they had to put two stents in my And they had to put two stents in my heart. And um heart. And um heart. And um you know, that was a real eye-opener for you know, that was a real eye-opener for you know, that was a real eye-opener for me. When I got out of the hospital, I me. When I got out of the hospital, I me. When I got out of the hospital, I began asking a really important question began asking a really important question began asking a really important question that I should have been asking in my that I should have been asking in my that I should have been asking in my 20s. 20s. 20s. God, where do you need me most? God, where do you need me most? God, where do you need me most? Where do you need me most? Because what Where do you need me most? Because what Where do you need me most? Because what I was doing was essentially I was I was doing was essentially I was I was doing was essentially I was writing multiple books. I was editor of writing multiple books. I was editor of writing multiple books. I was editor of a of an international magazine. Um and I a of an international magazine. Um and I a of an international magazine. Um and I was managing Convoy.

was managing Convoy. was managing Convoy. Uh then trying to be a father and a Uh then trying to be a father and a Uh then trying to be a father and a husband, too. You know, and um when I husband, too. You know, and um when I husband, too. You know, and um when I asked that question, asked that question, asked that question, the Lord answered me. And it was um the Lord answered me. And it was um the Lord answered me. And it was um it was how um I need you to give your it was how um I need you to give your it was how um I need you to give your full attention to Convoy of Hope. full attention to Convoy of Hope. full attention to Convoy of Hope. And I have to say that when I made that And I have to say that when I made that And I have to say that when I made that decision, decision, decision, things began to soar. things began to soar. things began to soar. Mhm. When I wasn't divided, Mhm. When I wasn't divided, Mhm. When I wasn't divided, they began to soar. Um one of the challenges, I think, I Um one of the challenges, I think, I have a friend of mine who says, "The have a friend of mine who says, "The have a friend of mine who says, "The problem with needs-based ministry is problem with needs-based ministry is problem with needs-based ministry is there's no end to human need." there's no end to human need." there's no end to human need." Yes. Yes. Yes. And you must find that. I mean, And you must find that. I mean, And you must find that. I mean, Yes. Yes. Yes. you know, your organization has a huge you know, your organization has a huge you know, your organization has a huge impact, so do a lot of other uh impact, so do a lot of other uh impact, so do a lot of other uh nonprofits. But even for a local church nonprofits. But even for a local church nonprofits. But even for a local church or local business that's an impact type or local business that's an impact type or local business that's an impact type business, it's like, "Well, we could do business, it's like, "Well, we could do business, it's like, "Well, we could do this or we could open up another one or this or we could open up another one or this or we could open up another one or we could do this." Or there's more we could do this." Or there's more we could do this." Or there's more people to reach. There's more people to people to reach. There's more people to people to reach. There's more people to feed, more people to clothe, more more feed, more people to clothe, more more feed, more people to clothe, more more women to empower, et cetera, et cetera.

women to empower, et cetera, et cetera. women to empower, et cetera, et cetera. I That could lead to a 24/7 culture I That could lead to a 24/7 culture I That could lead to a 24/7 culture where you never sleep, where you never where you never sleep, where you never where you never sleep, where you never take care of yourself. How How do you take care of yourself. How How do you take care of yourself. How How do you draw the line between we're going to do draw the line between we're going to do draw the line between we're going to do this project and we're not going to do this project and we're not going to do this project and we're not going to do that project yet or perhaps ever? that project yet or perhaps ever? that project yet or perhaps ever? What What you hit on is like the the What What you hit on is like the the What What you hit on is like the the most difficult question that I face. most difficult question that I face. most difficult question that I face. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh especially like when you're being Uh especially like when you're being Uh especially like when you're being bombarded with with needs from around bombarded with with needs from around bombarded with with needs from around the world and across the United States. the world and across the United States. the world and across the United States. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know that your yes could mean And you know that your yes could mean And you know that your yes could mean someone's survival and your no could someone's survival and your no could someone's survival and your no could mean just the opposite. So, um mean just the opposite. So, um mean just the opposite. So, um you know, I found um you know, I found um you know, I found um often, you know, as leaders we're torn often, you know, as leaders we're torn often, you know, as leaders we're torn between um what we feel is our duty to between um what we feel is our duty to between um what we feel is our duty to God and our personal desires. God and our personal desires. God and our personal desires. Right? I mean, that's part of Right? I mean, that's part of Right? I mean, that's part of leadership. You're torn. leadership. You're torn. leadership. You're torn. And I think one of the things that And I think one of the things that And I think one of the things that helped me helped me helped me a lot was um the fact that Jesus was a lot was um the fact that Jesus was a lot was um the fact that Jesus was surrounded by needs everywhere he went.

surrounded by needs everywhere he went. surrounded by needs everywhere he went. Every single day Every single day Every single day he was confronted with needs. he was confronted with needs. he was confronted with needs. He didn't heal everyone. He didn't feed He didn't heal everyone. He didn't feed He didn't heal everyone. He didn't feed everyone. everyone. everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What he did was he did what his father What he did was he did what his father What he did was he did what his father asked him to do. asked him to do. asked him to do. And I think when I began to understand And I think when I began to understand And I think when I began to understand the prayer component the prayer component the prayer component um and the importance of praying and um and the importance of praying and um and the importance of praying and asking God what he would have us do, asking God what he would have us do, asking God what he would have us do, um things began to uh um things began to uh um things began to uh become a lot more clear. And you know, become a lot more clear. And you know, become a lot more clear. And you know, as a younger leader, I wish I had prayed as a younger leader, I wish I had prayed as a younger leader, I wish I had prayed more and worked less. I really do. more and worked less. I really do. more and worked less. I really do. And um I as a young leader, I thought if And um I as a young leader, I thought if And um I as a young leader, I thought if I saw the need, if I heard the need, I saw the need, if I heard the need, I saw the need, if I heard the need, automatically my job is to meet that automatically my job is to meet that automatically my job is to meet that need. And I was running all over the need. And I was running all over the need. And I was running all over the world trying to meet needs. And um world trying to meet needs. And um world trying to meet needs. And um you know, I um I came to the realization you know, I um I came to the realization you know, I um I came to the realization now I just need to begin with prayer. now I just need to begin with prayer. now I just need to begin with prayer. Um is that something you want me to do? Um is that something you want me to do? Um is that something you want me to do? How do you even discern that? Because I How do you even discern that? Because I How do you even discern that? Because I think we've all prayed hoping we get an think we've all prayed hoping we get an think we've all prayed hoping we get an answer. And let's make that really answer. And let's make that really answer. And let's make that really practical, all right? One of the things practical, all right? One of the things practical, all right? One of the things Convoy does so many different things, Convoy does so many different things, Convoy does so many different things, but one of the things you'll do is if but one of the things you'll do is if but one of the things you'll do is if there's um let's pick a a tornado, okay?

there's um let's pick a a tornado, okay? there's um let's pick a a tornado, okay? So, there's a tornado. So, there's a tornado. So, there's a tornado. But sometimes a tornado will sweep But sometimes a tornado will sweep But sometimes a tornado will sweep through the Midwest and hit 10 different through the Midwest and hit 10 different through the Midwest and hit 10 different cities or a series of tornadoes does. cities or a series of tornadoes does. cities or a series of tornadoes does. Yes. Yes. Yes. You've got the resources to respond to You've got the resources to respond to You've got the resources to respond to five. five. five. Yes. Yes. Yes. All right, hypothetically, what what All right, hypothetically, what what All right, hypothetically, what what does that discernment process look like? does that discernment process look like? does that discernment process look like? Cuz you can't help everybody. Cuz you can't help everybody. Cuz you can't help everybody. Yeah, it certainly begins with existing Yeah, it certainly begins with existing Yeah, it certainly begins with existing relationships. relationships. relationships. Uh you know, okay, and everything Convoy Uh you know, okay, and everything Convoy Uh you know, okay, and everything Convoy of Hope does is uh is connected through of Hope does is uh is connected through of Hope does is uh is connected through the local church. You know, God raised the local church. You know, God raised the local church. You know, God raised up Convoy of Hope to resource and up Convoy of Hope to resource and up Convoy of Hope to resource and activate the local church. And so, activate the local church. And so, activate the local church. And so, that's where it begins for us, existing that's where it begins for us, existing that's where it begins for us, existing relationships. Um and that doesn't mean relationships. Um and that doesn't mean relationships. Um and that doesn't mean that we won't help or work with a that we won't help or work with a that we won't help or work with a relationship we don't have. It just relationship we don't have. It just relationship we don't have. It just means we begin with um a church that we means we begin with um a church that we means we begin with um a church that we know. And And why is that important? know. And And why is that important? know. And And why is that important? It's because It's because It's because our job is not to elevate, lift up the our job is not to elevate, lift up the our job is not to elevate, lift up the name of Convoy of Hope. It's really to name of Convoy of Hope. It's really to name of Convoy of Hope. It's really to elevate um the local church and to exalt elevate um the local church and to exalt elevate um the local church and to exalt the name of Jesus. the name of Jesus. the name of Jesus. And that's really our job. And uh let's And that's really our job. And uh let's And that's really our job. And uh let's say a disaster, for example, um say a disaster, for example, um say a disaster, for example, um there'll come a day when Convoy's trucks there'll come a day when Convoy's trucks there'll come a day when Convoy's trucks leave.

leave. leave. Um but that church will remain. Um but that church will remain. Um but that church will remain. And um to have a long-term impact on the And um to have a long-term impact on the And um to have a long-term impact on the kingdom, you need to elevate the church. kingdom, you need to elevate the church. kingdom, you need to elevate the church. The church needs to be out front. And The church needs to be out front. And The church needs to be out front. And so, that's really where we begin, Kerri. so, that's really where we begin, Kerri. so, that's really where we begin, Kerri. But any given time, we may be in But any given time, we may be in But any given time, we may be in 12, 15 different locations, you know. 12, 15 different locations, you know. 12, 15 different locations, you know. It's uh It's uh It's uh especially this year with all the especially this year with all the especially this year with all the tornadoes. It's uh tornadoes. It's uh tornadoes. It's uh it's been a very busy year. it's been a very busy year. it's been a very busy year. So, when you're praying, what do you So, when you're praying, what do you So, when you're praying, what do you listen for? listen for? listen for? Yeah, um Yeah, um Yeah, um there are several things. Um there are several things. Um there are several things. Um I um I um I um and I think I've shared this with you and I think I've shared this with you and I think I've shared this with you privately. Um privately. Um privately. Um for years, I've written notes to God. for years, I've written notes to God. for years, I've written notes to God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh you know, right, I take a little And uh you know, right, I take a little And uh you know, right, I take a little neat piece of paper or an envelope, neat piece of paper or an envelope, neat piece of paper or an envelope, whatever, and I'll write a question or a whatever, and I'll write a question or a whatever, and I'll write a question or a need, and I'll stick it in my wallet, in need, and I'll stick it in my wallet, in need, and I'll stick it in my wallet, in my Bible, in my briefcase. my Bible, in my briefcase. my Bible, in my briefcase. Um and you know, um Um and you know, um Um and you know, um so, you know, a lot of times it's a God so, you know, a lot of times it's a God so, you know, a lot of times it's a God um um um answering questions I'm already asking.

answering questions I'm already asking. answering questions I'm already asking. Um and where it's just there's clarity. Um and where it's just there's clarity. Um and where it's just there's clarity. I'm asking the question. I don't have I'm asking the question. I don't have I'm asking the question. I don't have clarity, but all of a sudden I got clarity, but all of a sudden I got clarity, but all of a sudden I got clarity. clarity. clarity. And um, I just, you know, I discovered And um, I just, you know, I discovered And um, I just, you know, I discovered that God's a good reader. He's a great that God's a good reader. He's a great that God's a good reader. He's a great reader, right? And and reader, right? And and reader, right? And and I you know, I've got notes in my wallet I you know, I've got notes in my wallet I you know, I've got notes in my wallet right now right now right now of things that I'm asking God questions. of things that I'm asking God questions. of things that I'm asking God questions. And And And God answers when there's a moment of God answers when there's a moment of God answers when there's a moment of clarity. It's not a voice, but it's just clarity. It's not a voice, but it's just clarity. It's not a voice, but it's just a moment of clarity like yes, that's the a moment of clarity like yes, that's the a moment of clarity like yes, that's the way to go. Again, coming back to what I way to go. Again, coming back to what I way to go. Again, coming back to what I said before, it's like the next step. said before, it's like the next step. said before, it's like the next step. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Showing us the next step. Showing us the next step. Showing us the next step. Can you give us an example of a note and Can you give us an example of a note and Can you give us an example of a note and an answer? an answer? an answer? Yeah, um Yeah, um Yeah, um like for example, the the property where like for example, the the property where like for example, the the property where we we we bought 240 acres of land to we we we bought 240 acres of land to we we we bought 240 acres of land to build this beautiful campus that's going build this beautiful campus that's going build this beautiful campus that's going to to to that is it's helping millions of people that is it's helping millions of people that is it's helping millions of people around the world and really serving the around the world and really serving the around the world and really serving the church. church. church. Um Um Um you know, I wrote it in my and I put it you know, I wrote it in my and I put it you know, I wrote it in my and I put it in my wallet, put a note in my wallet in my wallet, put a note in my wallet in my wallet, put a note in my wallet that says God show us the land.

that says God show us the land. that says God show us the land. And so we went to one piece of land and And so we went to one piece of land and And so we went to one piece of land and I thought, okay, I thought, okay, I thought, okay, maybe it's right, but it there wasn't maybe it's right, but it there wasn't maybe it's right, but it there wasn't the clarity that we needed. We went to the clarity that we needed. We went to the clarity that we needed. We went to another piece of land. another piece of land. another piece of land. I went before the board of directors. I I went before the board of directors. I I went before the board of directors. I said, "Hey, we can't find anything else said, "Hey, we can't find anything else said, "Hey, we can't find anything else other than this piece of land. It's other than this piece of land. It's other than this piece of land. It's really expensive. It's a great piece of really expensive. It's a great piece of really expensive. It's a great piece of land. land. land. Uh you know, I think it's God's will, Uh you know, I think it's God's will, Uh you know, I think it's God's will, but I really didn't know. Um and then um but I really didn't know. Um and then um but I really didn't know. Um and then um literally Carrey, I I walked onto this literally Carrey, I I walked onto this literally Carrey, I I walked onto this piece of land. piece of land. piece of land. 240 acres 240 acres 240 acres and it was instant clarity. and it was instant clarity. and it was instant clarity. Like this is where this is the holy Like this is where this is the holy Like this is where this is the holy ground. This is the place that I want to ground. This is the place that I want to ground. This is the place that I want to build and establish this work that's build and establish this work that's build and establish this work that's going to touch the world. going to touch the world. going to touch the world. But it began with writing a note and But it began with writing a note and But it began with writing a note and asking God, "Where do you want us to asking God, "Where do you want us to asking God, "Where do you want us to go?" go?" go?" Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And this you know, this is a really And this you know, this is a really And this you know, this is a really interesting perspective. I hadn't interesting perspective. I hadn't interesting perspective. I hadn't quite heard that take on prayer. But quite heard that take on prayer. But quite heard that take on prayer. But it's a way of kind of continually it's a way of kind of continually it's a way of kind of continually praying, right? So, it's a way of of praying, right? So, it's a way of of praying, right? So, it's a way of of leaving the file open leaving the file open leaving the file open until you have the clarity that we often until you have the clarity that we often until you have the clarity that we often seek. Cuz often we'll pray in the seek. Cuz often we'll pray in the seek. Cuz often we'll pray in the morning, expect an answer by noon. Maybe morning, expect an answer by noon. Maybe morning, expect an answer by noon. Maybe it doesn't always work that way. Yeah.

it doesn't always work that way. Yeah. it doesn't always work that way. Yeah. Oh, for sure. For sure. Oh, for sure. For sure. Oh, for sure. For sure. That's super wise. That's super wise. That's super wise. Um Um Um how is your life different today as how is your life different today as how is your life different today as opposed to 10 years ago or 20 years ago? opposed to 10 years ago or 20 years ago? opposed to 10 years ago or 20 years ago? Like what are some of the differences Like what are some of the differences Like what are some of the differences that you that you that you notice? notice? notice? Yeah, 20 years ago, as I said, you know, Yeah, 20 years ago, as I said, you know, Yeah, 20 years ago, as I said, you know, I was I was writing books. I was editor I was I was writing books. I was editor I was I was writing books. I was editor of a international magazine. I was doing of a international magazine. I was doing of a international magazine. I was doing Convoy Convoy Convoy and had the health scare, you know, and and had the health scare, you know, and and had the health scare, you know, and um um um that was um that was um that was um that was a busy life. That that was not that was a busy life. That that was not that was a busy life. That that was not that was not a godly or Christ-honoring that was not a godly or Christ-honoring that was not a godly or Christ-honoring life. That was just a busy life. Trying life. That was just a busy life. Trying life. That was just a busy life. Trying to do too much. Uh 10 years ago, to do too much. Uh 10 years ago, to do too much. Uh 10 years ago, um Convoy was gaining momentum um Convoy was gaining momentum um Convoy was gaining momentum and um you know, whenever a ministry, a and um you know, whenever a ministry, a and um you know, whenever a ministry, a church is gaining momentum, um you know, church is gaining momentum, um you know, church is gaining momentum, um you know, there will be opposition. Hardship is there will be opposition. Hardship is there will be opposition. Hardship is inevitable. It's It's not uh if it inevitable. It's It's not uh if it inevitable. It's It's not uh if it comes, it's when it comes. And in our comes, it's when it comes. And in our comes, it's when it comes. And in our case, my wife and I were extremely case, my wife and I were extremely case, my wife and I were extremely disappointed by um and disillusioned by disappointed by um and disillusioned by disappointed by um and disillusioned by just the actions of some people who were just the actions of some people who were just the actions of some people who were working with us and working with us and working with us and Mhm.

Mhm. Mhm. we felt really let down. And I remember we felt really let down. And I remember we felt really let down. And I remember going to a board of directors meeting going to a board of directors meeting going to a board of directors meeting and the board could see that I I just and the board could see that I I just and the board could see that I I just wasn't myself. wasn't myself. wasn't myself. And um in that board meeting, you know, And um in that board meeting, you know, And um in that board meeting, you know, they really encouraged my wife and I to they really encouraged my wife and I to they really encouraged my wife and I to sit with a counselor and try to process sit with a counselor and try to process sit with a counselor and try to process this disillusionment and disappointment. this disillusionment and disappointment. this disillusionment and disappointment. And um And um And um so we did for the first time in in our so we did for the first time in in our so we did for the first time in in our lives. lives. lives. Um Um Um and um all I can tell you is that and um all I can tell you is that and um all I can tell you is that moment, that first meeting moment, that first meeting moment, that first meeting was uh, therapeutic. It was was uh, therapeutic. It was was uh, therapeutic. It was life-changing. life-changing. life-changing. Um, the major takeaways was that uh, Um, the major takeaways was that uh, Um, the major takeaways was that uh, maybe I wasn't alone. maybe I wasn't alone. maybe I wasn't alone. That Jesus was betrayed by Judas. That Jesus was betrayed by Judas. That Jesus was betrayed by Judas. Um, God the Father uh, was betrayed by Um, God the Father uh, was betrayed by Um, God the Father uh, was betrayed by Lucifer, you know, and I wasn't alone Lucifer, you know, and I wasn't alone Lucifer, you know, and I wasn't alone and and and um, that Jesus faced betrayal and um, that Jesus faced betrayal and um, that Jesus faced betrayal and criticism and he he faced the criticism and he he faced the criticism and he he faced the expectations of people um, and that expectations of people um, and that expectations of people um, and that really for the first time, again, coming really for the first time, again, coming really for the first time, again, coming back to my childhood where, you know, back to my childhood where, you know, back to my childhood where, you know, I'm like almost the head of a household I'm like almost the head of a household I'm like almost the head of a household at the age of 12.

at the age of 12. at the age of 12. Um, that I wasn't responsible Um, that I wasn't responsible Um, that I wasn't responsible for other people's stuff. for other people's stuff. for other people's stuff. Their actions, their behavior, their Their actions, their behavior, their Their actions, their behavior, their attitudes, their character flaws. I attitudes, their character flaws. I attitudes, their character flaws. I wasn't responsible for that. wasn't responsible for that. wasn't responsible for that. Um, Um, Um, and I think 10 years ago I learned my and I think 10 years ago I learned my and I think 10 years ago I learned my limitations. limitations. limitations. I learned that I learned that I learned that uh, you have to entrust more to God and uh, you have to entrust more to God and uh, you have to entrust more to God and 10 years ago um, I really got my my heart in a place that I really got my my heart in a place that God could build upon. God could build upon. God could build upon. Um, my closeness with God it reached a Um, my closeness with God it reached a Um, my closeness with God it reached a whole new pinnacle, a new level whole new pinnacle, a new level whole new pinnacle, a new level and um, you know, I believe the heart is and um, you know, I believe the heart is and um, you know, I believe the heart is the foundation that God builds a the foundation that God builds a the foundation that God builds a ministry or a church upon. ministry or a church upon. ministry or a church upon. Um, and you know, um, I think 10 years Um, and you know, um, I think 10 years Um, and you know, um, I think 10 years ago plus uh, you know, I got my heart in ago plus uh, you know, I got my heart in ago plus uh, you know, I got my heart in a in a a place where I was really a in a a place where I was really a in a a place where I was really honoring the Lord with everything I did. honoring the Lord with everything I did. honoring the Lord with everything I did. Um, I'm not a saint. I'm not a Um, I'm not a saint. I'm not a Um, I'm not a saint. I'm not a superstar. Um, but I got my place my superstar. Um, but I got my place my superstar. Um, but I got my place my heart in a place heart in a place heart in a place um, that God could build upon.

um, that God could build upon. um, that God could build upon. And Convoy just begin to go to new And Convoy just begin to go to new And Convoy just begin to go to new levels when the heart was right. levels when the heart was right. levels when the heart was right. When the heart wasn't flawed. When the heart wasn't flawed. When the heart wasn't flawed. Um, Um, Um, you know, and I say that with tears in you know, and I say that with tears in you know, and I say that with tears in my eyes because you know, um, for many my eyes because you know, um, for many my eyes because you know, um, for many years, years, years, um, I was more reliant on my ability um, I was more reliant on my ability um, I was more reliant on my ability than I was on God's. than I was on God's. than I was on God's. And, um, And, um, And, um, and it's when and it's when and it's when the heart is right, the heart is right, the heart is right, God can build. God can build. God can build. And we learned that lesson at Convoy. And we learned that lesson at Convoy. And we learned that lesson at Convoy. What is the difference between relying What is the difference between relying What is the difference between relying on your own ability and relying on God on your own ability and relying on God on your own ability and relying on God from where you sit? from where you sit? from where you sit? Yeah, I think it's going beyond, um, Yeah, I think it's going beyond, um, Yeah, I think it's going beyond, um, reasonable behavior. reasonable behavior. reasonable behavior. You know, there are some ministers, You know, there are some ministers, You know, there are some ministers, there are some leaders who, if they're there are some leaders who, if they're there are some leaders who, if they're not working 110%, they feel like they're not working 110%, they feel like they're not working 110%, they feel like they're disappointing God. disappointing God. disappointing God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we have to ignore the lies of the And we have to ignore the lies of the And we have to ignore the lies of the enemy. enemy. enemy. Those are lies, Those are lies, Those are lies, um, and it it it just leads to reckless um, and it it it just leads to reckless um, and it it it just leads to reckless ambition. ambition. ambition. And, um, you know, I think for me, I was And, um, you know, I think for me, I was And, um, you know, I think for me, I was just going to extremes. I was making just going to extremes. I was making just going to extremes. I was making sacrifices sacrifices sacrifices that God wasn't asking me to make.

that God wasn't asking me to make. that God wasn't asking me to make. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And it paid a toll. And it paid a toll. And it paid a toll. So, is it like better self-care then, So, is it like better self-care then, So, is it like better self-care then, etc.? etc.? etc.? I think it's better self-care, but I I think it's better self-care, but I I think it's better self-care, but I think it's also, um, what happens when think it's also, um, what happens when think it's also, um, what happens when you're ambitious you're ambitious you're ambitious to an extreme is you begin to sacrifice to an extreme is you begin to sacrifice to an extreme is you begin to sacrifice some of the most important things, such some of the most important things, such some of the most important things, such as your prayer life, as your prayer life, as your prayer life, your your Bible reading. You begin to your your Bible reading. You begin to your your Bible reading. You begin to sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice, uh, fellowship with, uh, the right uh, fellowship with, uh, the right uh, fellowship with, uh, the right believers. believers. believers. Um, and I think when you do that, um, Um, and I think when you do that, um, Um, and I think when you do that, um, you know, that's not, uh, that's not you know, that's not, uh, that's not you know, that's not, uh, that's not self-care. self-care. self-care. That's that's reckless ambition. That's that's reckless ambition. That's that's reckless ambition. Um, and I, you know, I would say over my Um, and I, you know, I would say over my Um, and I, you know, I would say over my 30 years of Convoy of Hope, in the early 30 years of Convoy of Hope, in the early 30 years of Convoy of Hope, in the early days, days, days, um, I was so focused on building a um, I was so focused on building a um, I was so focused on building a ministry ministry ministry that, um, I was sacrificing things that that, um, I was sacrificing things that that, um, I was sacrificing things that ultimately led to heart problem. ultimately led to heart problem. ultimately led to heart problem. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. What is the biggest difference What is the biggest difference What is the biggest difference day-to-day since you made that pivot?

day-to-day since you made that pivot? day-to-day since you made that pivot? Um I think relying on other people Um I think relying on other people Um I think relying on other people uh more. I think a better delegator. uh more. I think a better delegator. uh more. I think a better delegator. Um I you know, I think uh surrounding Um I you know, I think uh surrounding Um I you know, I think uh surrounding yourself with quality people who you can yourself with quality people who you can yourself with quality people who you can entrust. entrust. entrust. Um Um Um you know, the people who are running you know, the people who are running you know, the people who are running these cameras, they can run the cameras. these cameras, they can run the cameras. these cameras, they can run the cameras. I don't need to run the cameras. You I don't need to run the cameras. You I don't need to run the cameras. You know, I think uh know, I think uh know, I think uh you know, I think that's that's a big you know, I think that's that's a big you know, I think that's that's a big part of it. It's just part of it. It's just part of it. It's just Was there a day when you would try to do Was there a day when you would try to do Was there a day when you would try to do that or try to orchestrate? that or try to orchestrate? that or try to orchestrate? Yeah, I would try to tell them what to Yeah, I would try to tell them what to Yeah, I would try to tell them what to do. I would I would try to play the role do. I would I would try to play the role do. I would I would try to play the role of super director, you know, and of super director, you know, and of super director, you know, and producer. producer. producer. Uh Uh Uh some years ago I learned the lesson, no, some years ago I learned the lesson, no, some years ago I learned the lesson, no, they need to tell me. They're the experts. And I think I think They're the experts. And I think I think that's one of the things that's changed that's one of the things that's changed that's one of the things that's changed is that I've become a better delegator. is that I've become a better delegator. is that I've become a better delegator. And um you know, we have a a massive And um you know, we have a a massive And um you know, we have a a massive team and team and team and you better delegate because God's given you better delegate because God's given you better delegate because God's given us a big work to do. us a big work to do. us a big work to do. I think you wrote you tried to I think you wrote you tried to I think you wrote you tried to discipline yourself not to entertain discipline yourself not to entertain discipline yourself not to entertain weighty topics after 8:00 p.m.

weighty topics after 8:00 p.m. weighty topics after 8:00 p.m. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Never heard that discipline. Really Never heard that discipline. Really Never heard that discipline. Really intrigued by it. Can you give us the intrigued by it. Can you give us the intrigued by it. Can you give us the origin and then how on earth you do origin and then how on earth you do origin and then how on earth you do that? You talk to so many leaders, that? You talk to so many leaders, that? You talk to so many leaders, they're like, yeah, the reason I they're like, yeah, the reason I they're like, yeah, the reason I couldn't sleep last night, it just kept couldn't sleep last night, it just kept couldn't sleep last night, it just kept ruminating in my head and I was up till ruminating in my head and I was up till ruminating in my head and I was up till midnight even though I was in bed. midnight even though I was in bed. midnight even though I was in bed. How do you train yourself not to How do you train yourself not to How do you train yourself not to entertain weighty subjects after 8:00 entertain weighty subjects after 8:00 entertain weighty subjects after 8:00 p.m.? p.m.? p.m.? Well, I learned the hard way. I learned Well, I learned the hard way. I learned Well, I learned the hard way. I learned because I was the one that was lying because I was the one that was lying because I was the one that was lying awake after midnight and awake after midnight and awake after midnight and but you know, I I guess I told myself um but you know, I I guess I told myself um but you know, I I guess I told myself um I don't think I heard it from anybody, I don't think I heard it from anybody, I don't think I heard it from anybody, but I told myself, hey, when I do that, but I told myself, hey, when I do that, but I told myself, hey, when I do that, I'm cheating tomorrow. I'm I'm waking up I'm cheating tomorrow. I'm I'm waking up I'm cheating tomorrow. I'm I'm waking up with less hours sleep and I'm not going with less hours sleep and I'm not going with less hours sleep and I'm not going to be as productive. And I need to to be as productive. And I need to to be as productive. And I need to practice holy procrastination. practice holy procrastination. practice holy procrastination. And let's put things off until tomorrow. And let's put things off until tomorrow. And let's put things off until tomorrow. Let tomorrow I think there's something Let tomorrow I think there's something Let tomorrow I think there's something biblical about that. Uh biblical about that. Uh biblical about that. Uh you know, let tomorrow let let's worry you know, let tomorrow let let's worry you know, let tomorrow let let's worry about tomorrow tomorrow. And um about tomorrow tomorrow. And um about tomorrow tomorrow. And um yeah, I I began to just, I guess maybe yeah, I I began to just, I guess maybe yeah, I I began to just, I guess maybe um um um from a from a from a from an understanding that how I was from an understanding that how I was from an understanding that how I was operating, I was cheating operating, I was cheating operating, I was cheating tomorrow because I was lying awake so tomorrow because I was lying awake so tomorrow because I was lying awake so night, so many nights.

night, so many nights. night, so many nights. I mean, I mean, that's great, but I I mean, I mean, that's great, but I I mean, I mean, that's great, but I talked to a lot of people. I'm not one talked to a lot of people. I'm not one talked to a lot of people. I'm not one of those people, but I talked to a lot of those people, but I talked to a lot of those people, but I talked to a lot of people who are like, "Yeah, but I of people who are like, "Yeah, but I of people who are like, "Yeah, but I just can't turn it off." How did you just can't turn it off." How did you just can't turn it off." How did you turn it off? How do you shut down after turn it off? How do you shut down after turn it off? How do you shut down after eight 8:00 cuz you're literally dealing eight 8:00 cuz you're literally dealing eight 8:00 cuz you're literally dealing with with with life and death, multi-million dollar life and death, multi-million dollar life and death, multi-million dollar decisions, global crises, probably your decisions, global crises, probably your decisions, global crises, probably your own chair personnel issues, which are own chair personnel issues, which are own chair personnel issues, which are always the worst for me. always the worst for me. always the worst for me. Yeah. How do you just turn the faucet Yeah. How do you just turn the faucet Yeah. How do you just turn the faucet off at 8:00 and open it up again in the off at 8:00 and open it up again in the off at 8:00 and open it up again in the morning? morning? morning? I think it's a gift from God. I do. I think it's a gift from God. I do. I think it's a gift from God. I do. I think it's a gift. I I think I I I think it's a gift. I I think I I I think it's a gift. I I think I I prayed, I said, "God, help me do this." prayed, I said, "God, help me do this." prayed, I said, "God, help me do this." And and he has. Um come 7:30, 8:00, I'm And and he has. Um come 7:30, 8:00, I'm And and he has. Um come 7:30, 8:00, I'm not thinking about the worries of not thinking about the worries of not thinking about the worries of tomorrow and all the worries of that go tomorrow and all the worries of that go tomorrow and all the worries of that go along with my position. along with my position. along with my position. Um Um Um I'm I'm focused on um my family um I'm I'm focused on um my family um I'm I'm focused on um my family um and uh and uh and uh and uh doing things I like to do. and uh doing things I like to do. and uh doing things I like to do. Do you have a routine? I was going to Do you have a routine? I was going to Do you have a routine? I was going to say, did you change your routine at all? say, did you change your routine at all? say, did you change your routine at all? Was there any tangible changes you made? Was there any tangible changes you made? Was there any tangible changes you made? Yeah, I think um Yeah, I think um Yeah, I think um the night time is my wife's time.

the night time is my wife's time. the night time is my wife's time. And uh my kids' time. And so I used to And uh my kids' time. And so I used to And uh my kids' time. And so I used to schedule breakfast, lunch, and dinner schedule breakfast, lunch, and dinner schedule breakfast, lunch, and dinner meetings. I mean, 5 days a week. meetings. I mean, 5 days a week. meetings. I mean, 5 days a week. Wow. Wow. Wow. And uh And uh And uh um um um so here's something practical I did was so here's something practical I did was so here's something practical I did was I stopped scheduling dinner meetings. No I stopped scheduling dinner meetings. No I stopped scheduling dinner meetings. No more. more. more. Um if Um if Um if um um um you know, there's probably some examples you know, there's probably some examples you know, there's probably some examples of where I I have, but um I um I move of where I I have, but um I um I move of where I I have, but um I um I move everything to lunch or breakfast. everything to lunch or breakfast. everything to lunch or breakfast. And uh that's helped keep my evenings And uh that's helped keep my evenings And uh that's helped keep my evenings free to do what I need to do to stay free to do what I need to do to stay free to do what I need to do to stay stay refreshed and stay encouraged. stay refreshed and stay encouraged. stay refreshed and stay encouraged. Did you have any hobbies before you made Did you have any hobbies before you made Did you have any hobbies before you made this change and if so, have you added this change and if so, have you added this change and if so, have you added some in after? some in after? some in after? Yeah, you know what? I I I am a a big Yeah, you know what? I I I am a a big Yeah, you know what? I I I am a a big sports fanatic and so sports fanatic and so sports fanatic and so I I really enjoy sports of all kinds and I I really enjoy sports of all kinds and I I really enjoy sports of all kinds and and so, you know, I pay attention. I and so, you know, I pay attention. I and so, you know, I pay attention. I read I I read ESPN. I uh I do pay read I I read ESPN. I uh I do pay read I I read ESPN. I uh I do pay attention to sports and I um attention to sports and I um attention to sports and I um I think along the same time as this this I think along the same time as this this I think along the same time as this this change, I started playing fantasy change, I started playing fantasy change, I started playing fantasy football and fantasy sports and football and fantasy sports and football and fantasy sports and uh people are surprised to hear me say uh people are surprised to hear me say uh people are surprised to hear me say that, but that, but that, but I'm not ashamed of it. It's a good I'm not ashamed of it. It's a good I'm not ashamed of it. It's a good distraction.

distraction. distraction. Hey, you got to pick your poisons, Hey, you got to pick your poisons, Hey, you got to pick your poisons, right? That's the way I look at it. It's right? That's the way I look at it. It's right? That's the way I look at it. It's like what are you going to do and if it like what are you going to do and if it like what are you going to do and if it illustrates another principle I've been illustrates another principle I've been illustrates another principle I've been thinking about a lot cuz I'm I'm with thinking about a lot cuz I'm I'm with thinking about a lot cuz I'm I'm with you. I was terrible at this for years you. I was terrible at this for years you. I was terrible at this for years and it was my grown kids who challenged and it was my grown kids who challenged and it was my grown kids who challenged me. me. me. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And I found I really had to spend years And I found I really had to spend years And I found I really had to spend years cultivating a life outside of work so cultivating a life outside of work so cultivating a life outside of work so that I have something to look forward to that I have something to look forward to that I have something to look forward to because I really enjoy this. Nine nine because I really enjoy this. Nine nine because I really enjoy this. Nine nine days out of 10 are good days for me. You days out of 10 are good days for me. You days out of 10 are good days for me. You know what I mean? know what I mean? know what I mean? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. easy days, but they're good days. It's easy days, but they're good days. It's easy days, but they're good days. It's like I'm really thankful I get to do it like I'm really thankful I get to do it like I'm really thankful I get to do it and so, you know, tonight my wife and I and so, you know, tonight my wife and I and so, you know, tonight my wife and I are going for a bike ride. We're going are going for a bike ride. We're going are going for a bike ride. We're going to do a sunset ride. I get to mow my to do a sunset ride. I get to mow my to do a sunset ride. I get to mow my lawn, which actually I enjoy unlike most lawn, which actually I enjoy unlike most lawn, which actually I enjoy unlike most people. I really enjoy that. That's a people. I really enjoy that. That's a people. I really enjoy that. That's a hobby thing for me. Uh and I have other hobby thing for me. Uh and I have other hobby thing for me. Uh and I have other things that I do. We go boating. We live things that I do. We go boating. We live things that I do. We go boating. We live near a lake, but I had to fill the void near a lake, but I had to fill the void near a lake, but I had to fill the void because if there's a void, what am I because if there's a void, what am I because if there's a void, what am I going to do? going to do? going to do? Yes. Yes. Yes. to work. I'm going to ruminate. I'm to work. I'm going to ruminate. I'm to work. I'm going to ruminate. I'm going to open up the laptop. I'm going going to open up the laptop. I'm going going to open up the laptop. I'm going to do all those things. Similar or to do all those things. Similar or to do all those things. Similar or different for you, Hal? different for you, Hal? different for you, Hal? Yeah, I I you know, I do like to write Yeah, I I you know, I do like to write Yeah, I I you know, I do like to write and I like to read and and I like to read and and I like to read and you know, I have a journal so I I write you know, I have a journal so I I write you know, I have a journal so I I write my journal every day my journal every day my journal every day and and and I write it you know, longhand. I print I write it you know, longhand. I print I write it you know, longhand. I print it out, but in a a journal book because it out, but in a a journal book because it out, but in a a journal book because I want to pass it on to my I want to pass it on to my I want to pass it on to my grandchildren.

grandchildren. grandchildren. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um you know, so I've been doing that And um you know, so I've been doing that And um you know, so I've been doing that now for 12 years. Um now for 12 years. Um now for 12 years. Um and so that's when you talk about and so that's when you talk about and so that's when you talk about routine, that's something I do every routine, that's something I do every routine, that's something I do every night is and it's not just spiritual night is and it's not just spiritual night is and it's not just spiritual truths. Sometimes it's about just the truths. Sometimes it's about just the truths. Sometimes it's about just the joy of life and and uh that sort of joy of life and and uh that sort of joy of life and and uh that sort of thing, but uh thing, but uh thing, but uh Yeah, no, I I I think that was a a a big Yeah, no, I I I think that was a a a big Yeah, no, I I I think that was a a a big life change and then um life change and then um life change and then um you know, another practice that I made you know, another practice that I made you know, another practice that I made with my wife is that we made vacations with my wife is that we made vacations with my wife is that we made vacations uh sacred. And so like at the beginning uh sacred. And so like at the beginning uh sacred. And so like at the beginning of the year, we would schedule of the year, we would schedule of the year, we would schedule vacations, um schedule the time, and our vacations, um schedule the time, and our vacations, um schedule the time, and our kids knew that there was nothing that kids knew that there was nothing that kids knew that there was nothing that was going to interfere with those was going to interfere with those was going to interfere with those vacations or the time away. I remember vacations or the time away. I remember vacations or the time away. I remember one time I received an invitation to go one time I received an invitation to go one time I received an invitation to go to the Oval Office with five other to the Oval Office with five other to the Oval Office with five other ministers and I declined um ministers and I declined um ministers and I declined um because it was during a time that I was because it was during a time that I was because it was during a time that I was supposed to be with my girls, my wife. supposed to be with my girls, my wife. supposed to be with my girls, my wife. Wow. Wow. Wow. I think that's one of the steps that we I think that's one of the steps that we I think that's one of the steps that we took that was really wise is making took that was really wise is making took that was really wise is making vacations and time away sacred.

vacations and time away sacred. vacations and time away sacred. I imagine I imagine I imagine that would be really difficult to do in that would be really difficult to do in that would be really difficult to do in your view, White House notwithstanding. your view, White House notwithstanding. your view, White House notwithstanding. Um but because disasters hit 365 days a Um but because disasters hit 365 days a Um but because disasters hit 365 days a year and so there can be a temptation. year and so there can be a temptation. year and so there can be a temptation. I'd love to know I'd love to know I'd love to know if you think about your co-workers who if you think about your co-workers who if you think about your co-workers who have worked with you for say 20 years. have worked with you for say 20 years. have worked with you for say 20 years. What is the biggest difference they What is the biggest difference they What is the biggest difference they notice between then and now? notice between then and now? notice between then and now? Um Um Um I'm more I'm more I'm more um I pro- I probably am a a little bit I pro- I probably am a a little bit reluct- more reluctant to make quick reluct- more reluctant to make quick reluct- more reluctant to make quick decisions. decisions. decisions. Um I I usually don't have a problem with Um I I usually don't have a problem with Um I I usually don't have a problem with saying let's sleep on it. Let's talk saying let's sleep on it. Let's talk saying let's sleep on it. Let's talk tomorrow. It because you know, that's um tomorrow. It because you know, that's um tomorrow. It because you know, that's um God can give you clarity in 24 hours. God can give you clarity in 24 hours. God can give you clarity in 24 hours. And so I think they would say that I'm And so I think they would say that I'm And so I think they would say that I'm probably I used to be, you know, just probably I used to be, you know, just probably I used to be, you know, just willing to make willing to make willing to make decisions on a dime.

decisions on a dime. decisions on a dime. Now I'm probably a little bit more Now I'm probably a little bit more Now I'm probably a little bit more restrained. restrained. restrained. Restrained. And Restrained. And Restrained. And in in making sure that we make godly in in making sure that we make godly in in making sure that we make godly decisions. I think that's what they decisions. I think that's what they decisions. I think that's what they would say. would say. would say. You know, it's interesting. You know, it's interesting. You know, it's interesting. I I not only read your book, I read your I I not only read your book, I read your I I not only read your book, I read your latest annual report. And when I look at latest annual report. And when I look at latest annual report. And when I look at the growth of Convoy both financially the growth of Convoy both financially the growth of Convoy both financially and in terms of impact, and in terms of impact, and in terms of impact, there's steady growth over the decades, there's steady growth over the decades, there's steady growth over the decades, but lately there's been hockey stick but lately there's been hockey stick but lately there's been hockey stick growth. Just growth. Just growth. Just Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. hugely in what the last 5 years? How? hugely in what the last 5 years? How? hugely in what the last 5 years? How? Yes, yes. Mhm. Yes, yes. Mhm. Yes, yes. Mhm. Are the changes you've made Are the changes you've made Are the changes you've made somehow also related to the growth that somehow also related to the growth that somehow also related to the growth that Convoy has experienced? Convoy has experienced? Convoy has experienced? Do you know? Do you know? Do you know? Yeah, I I Yeah, I I Yeah, I I I think I think part of it is timing. I think I think part of it is timing. I think I think part of it is timing. Um I think for years we've been Um I think for years we've been Um I think for years we've been faithful. We've been hardworking. faithful. We've been hardworking. faithful. We've been hardworking. And I think because of our commitment to And I think because of our commitment to And I think because of our commitment to the church. I think the church is the church. I think the church is the church. I think the church is poised. The church is poised to respond poised. The church is poised to respond poised. The church is poised to respond like never before to physical and like never before to physical and like never before to physical and spiritual needs. Our spiritual needs. Our spiritual needs. Our reason for being is to resource and reason for being is to resource and reason for being is to resource and activate churches and mobilize people to activate churches and mobilize people to activate churches and mobilize people to help the poor and the suffering or help help the poor and the suffering or help help the poor and the suffering or help those who are strict stricken by those who are strict stricken by those who are strict stricken by disaster.

disaster. disaster. Um I I think it's a timing factor. Um I I think it's a timing factor. Um I I think it's a timing factor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's probably over the last 12, 13 years It's probably over the last 12, 13 years It's probably over the last 12, 13 years that we have seen incredible growth at that we have seen incredible growth at that we have seen incredible growth at about 20% a year. And the reason for it about 20% a year. And the reason for it about 20% a year. And the reason for it I I would go back to is 12, 13 years ago I I would go back to is 12, 13 years ago I I would go back to is 12, 13 years ago we made a solid commitment to the we made a solid commitment to the we made a solid commitment to the church. church. church. Um that we weren't going to throw food Um that we weren't going to throw food Um that we weren't going to throw food off the back of a truck. No, we're going off the back of a truck. No, we're going off the back of a truck. No, we're going to work with churches. And when we made to work with churches. And when we made to work with churches. And when we made that decision, that decision, that decision, um everything just really began to um everything just really began to um everything just really began to change. But I think a lot of it has to change. But I think a lot of it has to change. But I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the church is do with the fact that the church is do with the fact that the church is poised. Uh we're no longer having to poised. Uh we're no longer having to poised. Uh we're no longer having to convince churches to help the poor and convince churches to help the poor and convince churches to help the poor and suffering. They want to. They just want suffering. They want to. They just want suffering. They want to. They just want a track to run on. a track to run on. a track to run on. Yeah, and you're that track. Yeah, and you're that track. Yeah, and you're that track. Interesting. And and and so I don't want Interesting. And and and so I don't want Interesting. And and and so I don't want to put words in your mouth. to put words in your mouth. to put words in your mouth. Um you know, mutual friend Craig Um you know, mutual friend Craig Um you know, mutual friend Craig Rochelle. I think Craig's been on this Rochelle. I think Craig's been on this Rochelle. I think Craig's been on this podcast numerous times. You know Craig podcast numerous times. You know Craig podcast numerous times. You know Craig really well. really well. really well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And And And you know, I think he would probably say you know, I think he would probably say you know, I think he would probably say as he's been very public about the as he's been very public about the as he's been very public about the changes as in his leadership over the changes as in his leadership over the changes as in his leadership over the years years years that him stepping back, getting that him stepping back, getting that him stepping back, getting healthier. I mean, the guy is still healthier. I mean, the guy is still healthier. I mean, the guy is still dialed in. You know Craig as well as dialed in. You know Craig as well as dialed in. You know Craig as well as anybody. I mean, he's anybody. I mean, he's anybody. I mean, he's Right. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Right. You look up dialed in and there is a You look up dialed in and there is a You look up dialed in and there is a picture of Craig in the dictionary, picture of Craig in the dictionary, picture of Craig in the dictionary, right? right? right? Right. Right. Right. So he's dialed in, but he's also learned So he's dialed in, but he's also learned So he's dialed in, but he's also learned to step back. He's also learned to trust to step back. He's also learned to trust to step back. He's also learned to trust his team. He's also gotten healthy as his team. He's also gotten healthy as his team. He's also gotten healthy as you know, you you are prioritizing. you know, you you are prioritizing. you know, you you are prioritizing. And when you see that, you also see the And when you see that, you also see the And when you see that, you also see the exponential growth of of Life Church. Um exponential growth of of Life Church. Um exponential growth of of Life Church. Um so I wonder if there's a a so I wonder if there's a a so I wonder if there's a a parallel there. I also wonder um like a parallel there. I also wonder um like a parallel there. I also wonder um like a long as Eugene Peterson said, who I long as Eugene Peterson said, who I long as Eugene Peterson said, who I think was quoting Kierkegaard, a long think was quoting Kierkegaard, a long think was quoting Kierkegaard, a long obedience in the same direction. You obedience in the same direction. You obedience in the same direction. You didn't start Convoy yesterday. This is didn't start Convoy yesterday. This is didn't start Convoy yesterday. This is Did you say 30 years? Did you say 30 years? Did you say 30 years? 30 years, yeah. 30 years, yeah. 30 years, yeah. 30 years. And so you have long obedience 30 years. And so you have long obedience 30 years. And so you have long obedience same direction and the benefit of same direction and the benefit of same direction and the benefit of compound interest, right? If you want to compound interest, right? If you want to compound interest, right? If you want to pull from Warren Buffett. Do you want to pull from Warren Buffett. Do you want to pull from Warren Buffett. Do you want to talk about a long-term fruit to leaders? talk about a long-term fruit to leaders? talk about a long-term fruit to leaders? Again, remembering we've got a lot of Again, remembering we've got a lot of Again, remembering we've got a lot of older leaders who are hanging in there. older leaders who are hanging in there. older leaders who are hanging in there. A lot of younger leaders who like, I got A lot of younger leaders who like, I got A lot of younger leaders who like, I got 3 years under my belt. How come this 3 years under my belt. How come this 3 years under my belt. How come this thing hasn't blown up yet, Hal? Help me thing hasn't blown up yet, Hal? Help me thing hasn't blown up yet, Hal? Help me understand. understand. understand. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think um I could only speak from Well, I think um I could only speak from Well, I think um I could only speak from our experience. And um when we our experience. And um when we our experience. And um when we when we made a decision that um when we made a decision that um when we made a decision that um we wanted to be used by God as a we wanted to be used by God as a we wanted to be used by God as a catalyst for a movement rather than just catalyst for a movement rather than just catalyst for a movement rather than just building another charity, when we made building another charity, when we made building another charity, when we made that decision that decision that decision um things began to change. And again, I um things began to change. And again, I um things began to change. And again, I think that's God think that's God think that's God setting course. It's God setting setting course. It's God setting setting course. It's God setting priorities. And so, um how we grow priorities. And so, um how we grow priorities. And so, um how we grow uh how we scale, it's not our first uh how we scale, it's not our first uh how we scale, it's not our first question. It's Our first question is, question. It's Our first question is, question. It's Our first question is, you know, is God Are you asking us to do you know, is God Are you asking us to do you know, is God Are you asking us to do this? this? this? A lot of times we've done things that A lot of times we've done things that A lot of times we've done things that God wasn't asking us to do. God wasn't asking us to do. God wasn't asking us to do. But, are we doing what God's asking us But, are we doing what God's asking us But, are we doing what God's asking us to do? And two, how's this going to to do? And two, how's this going to to do? And two, how's this going to benefit the local church? If it's not benefit the local church? If it's not benefit the local church? If it's not going to benefit the local church, then going to benefit the local church, then going to benefit the local church, then why are we doing it? And there are some why are we doing it? And there are some why are we doing it? And there are some great things that we have walked away great things that we have walked away great things that we have walked away from, tremendous opportunities, from, tremendous opportunities, from, tremendous opportunities, just because there was no church just because there was no church just because there was no church connection. connection. connection. Um it it was about bringing attention to Um it it was about bringing attention to Um it it was about bringing attention to us, and that's not what we're about. us, and that's not what we're about. us, and that's not what we're about. We're about lifting up and exalting the We're about lifting up and exalting the We're about lifting up and exalting the local church.

local church. local church. I mean this in the kindest way, you're I mean this in the kindest way, you're I mean this in the kindest way, you're one of the largest charities most even one of the largest charities most even one of the largest charities most even Christian leaders have never heard of. Christian leaders have never heard of. Christian leaders have never heard of. And because you work in the background, And because you work in the background, And because you work in the background, because you quietly, I would suggest because you quietly, I would suggest because you quietly, I would suggest humbly, go about it. One of the things humbly, go about it. One of the things humbly, go about it. One of the things that that really interested me, I'm that that really interested me, I'm that that really interested me, I'm always interested in always interested in always interested in um counterintuitive decisions. And um counterintuitive decisions. And um counterintuitive decisions. And you've said this publicly. If you need you've said this publicly. If you need you've said this publicly. If you need to nuance it because I got it wrong or to nuance it because I got it wrong or to nuance it because I got it wrong or didn't write my notes properly, please didn't write my notes properly, please didn't write my notes properly, please nuance it all you want, but you you nuance it all you want, but you you nuance it all you want, but you you administer hundreds of millions of administer hundreds of millions of administer hundreds of millions of dollars of relief a year, in kind and dollars of relief a year, in kind and dollars of relief a year, in kind and cash, right? cash, right? cash, right? Right. Right. Right. So, tornado hits, your truck rolls in, So, tornado hits, your truck rolls in, So, tornado hits, your truck rolls in, you partner with a local church, you're you partner with a local church, you're you partner with a local church, you're there with water, food, sanitary, you there with water, food, sanitary, you there with water, food, sanitary, you name it, you've got it. name it, you've got it. name it, you've got it. Usually the first in, and you want to be Usually the first in, and you want to be Usually the first in, and you want to be the last to leave of all the relief the last to leave of all the relief the last to leave of all the relief organizations. And so, that's how you organizations. And so, that's how you organizations. And so, that's how you partner with the local church. There's a partner with the local church. There's a partner with the local church. There's a lot of other facets, lot of other facets, lot of other facets, but you don't keep but you don't keep but you don't keep a huge reserve in the bank account. You a huge reserve in the bank account. You a huge reserve in the bank account. You tend to administer the relief as it tend to administer the relief as it tend to administer the relief as it comes in. Can you explain the thinking comes in. Can you explain the thinking comes in. Can you explain the thinking behind that? Because most people would behind that? Because most people would behind that? Because most people would say, "Wow, if you had a hundred million say, "Wow, if you had a hundred million say, "Wow, if you had a hundred million dollars in the bank, imagine what you dollars in the bank, imagine what you dollars in the bank, imagine what you could do." And you're like, "No, we you could do." And you're like, "No, we you could do." And you're like, "No, we you don't quite run on fumes." Like you've don't quite run on fumes." Like you've don't quite run on fumes." Like you've got cash flow, but you're not got cash flow, but you're not got cash flow, but you're not stockpiling cash.

stockpiling cash. stockpiling cash. No, I mean we we have reserves to No, I mean we we have reserves to No, I mean we we have reserves to operate the organization, but what we operate the organization, but what we operate the organization, but what we don't do is stow away funds for specific don't do is stow away funds for specific don't do is stow away funds for specific disasters. Because if you're going to do disasters. Because if you're going to do disasters. Because if you're going to do that, you're going to be putting sewing that, you're going to be putting sewing that, you're going to be putting sewing away away away tens of millions of dollars. I mean tens of millions of dollars. I mean tens of millions of dollars. I mean God has directed us not to budget for God has directed us not to budget for God has directed us not to budget for specific disasters. Uh specific disasters. Uh specific disasters. Uh we believe that if we're exalting the we believe that if we're exalting the we believe that if we're exalting the name of Jesus, again, elevating the name of Jesus, again, elevating the name of Jesus, again, elevating the local church, that God will pay the local church, that God will pay the local church, that God will pay the bill. bill. bill. It's not the safest model, but it's It's not the safest model, but it's It's not the safest model, but it's worked for us. It's worked for us. We've worked for us. It's worked for us. We've worked for us. It's worked for us. We've seen God do so many amazing things. And seen God do so many amazing things. And seen God do so many amazing things. And we've been the recipients of the we've been the recipients of the we've been the recipients of the generosity of churches and businesses generosity of churches and businesses generosity of churches and businesses and individuals. and individuals. and individuals. Every time we put the word out that Every time we put the word out that Every time we put the word out that we're responding, we've seen people we're responding, we've seen people we're responding, we've seen people respond um respond um respond um in kind with uh generosity. And I think in kind with uh generosity. And I think in kind with uh generosity. And I think there's another factor, too, is that there's another factor, too, is that there's another factor, too, is that um in the early days in particular, we um in the early days in particular, we um in the early days in particular, we we didn't want our relief teams focusing we didn't want our relief teams focusing we didn't want our relief teams focusing on money. on money. on money. Um your job, go and meet needs. Just Um your job, go and meet needs. Just Um your job, go and meet needs. Just meet needs. We'll worry about the money meet needs. We'll worry about the money meet needs. We'll worry about the money later. God will provide. Just do the later. God will provide. Just do the later. God will provide. Just do the work of Jesus. He will provide. And for work of Jesus. He will provide. And for work of Jesus. He will provide. And for over 20 years, he has.

over 20 years, he has. over 20 years, he has. How does that work out practically? How does that work out practically? How does that work out practically? Because you are you are you sometimes Because you are you are you sometimes Because you are you are you sometimes make the decision to go into a make the decision to go into a make the decision to go into a community, respond to a war community, respond to a war community, respond to a war before those resources are in place. So, before those resources are in place. So, before those resources are in place. So, can you walk us through how that might can you walk us through how that might can you walk us through how that might play out day-to-day? play out day-to-day? play out day-to-day? Yeah, I think part of it is when you've Yeah, I think part of it is when you've Yeah, I think part of it is when you've been at it so long, you can really kind been at it so long, you can really kind been at it so long, you can really kind of guess of guess of guess what's going to come in um what's going to come in um what's going to come in um in the way of donations. So, I don't in the way of donations. So, I don't in the way of donations. So, I don't want to spiritualize it too much, uh but want to spiritualize it too much, uh but want to spiritualize it too much, uh but it is a spirit it is a faith walk. it is a spirit it is a faith walk. it is a spirit it is a faith walk. Um when you you're writing Um when you you're writing Um when you you're writing million-dollar checks, you know, for a million-dollar checks, you know, for a million-dollar checks, you know, for a Ukraine, for example, or a a Katrina or Ukraine, for example, or a a Katrina or Ukraine, for example, or a a Katrina or the tornadoes. You're You're writing big the tornadoes. You're You're writing big the tornadoes. You're You're writing big checks. checks. checks. It's a step of faith. You're believing It's a step of faith. You're believing It's a step of faith. You're believing that God is going to come, honor his that God is going to come, honor his that God is going to come, honor his word, and come behind and provide. And word, and come behind and provide. And word, and come behind and provide. And we've just been at it so long that we've just been at it so long that we've just been at it so long that it's second nature to us. Really is. it's second nature to us. Really is. it's second nature to us. Really is. When you think about your development as When you think about your development as When you think about your development as a leader over the last three decades a leader over the last three decades a leader over the last three decades at Convoy, at Convoy, at Convoy, what has been one of the hardest pivots what has been one of the hardest pivots what has been one of the hardest pivots for you to make?

for you to make? for you to make? Um you know, it could be letting go of Um you know, it could be letting go of Um you know, it could be letting go of control. It could be control. It could be control. It could be something that we haven't talked about something that we haven't talked about something that we haven't talked about yet. But when you think about of all the yet. But when you think about of all the yet. But when you think about of all the leadership challenges you've had, leadership challenges you've had, leadership challenges you've had, which has been the hardest corner to which has been the hardest corner to which has been the hardest corner to turn for you? turn for you? turn for you? Um I don't know that I even thought Um I don't know that I even thought Um I don't know that I even thought about it. Let me about it. Let me about it. Let me second here. I think second here. I think second here. I think I think I think I think um um um pivot in terms of delegation. I pivot in terms of delegation. I pivot in terms of delegation. I mentioned that earlier. Delegating more. mentioned that earlier. Delegating more. mentioned that earlier. Delegating more. I think um I think um I think um you know, I wasn't really I didn't feel you know, I wasn't really I didn't feel you know, I wasn't really I didn't feel called initially to called initially to called initially to do international work. It was really US do international work. It was really US do international work. It was really US work. Um And for the first five years or work. Um And for the first five years or work. Um And for the first five years or so, it was just US-based. Oh, we were so, it was just US-based. Oh, we were so, it was just US-based. Oh, we were doing community outreaches alone. doing community outreaches alone. doing community outreaches alone. We started responding to disasters, but We started responding to disasters, but We started responding to disasters, but um I was in Africa and the photographer um I was in Africa and the photographer um I was in Africa and the photographer that was with me said, you know, um that was with me said, you know, um that was with me said, you know, um I was there writing a story, writing a I was there writing a story, writing a I was there writing a story, writing a book. And book. And book. And the photographer says to me, "Hey, I the photographer says to me, "Hey, I the photographer says to me, "Hey, I think you can I think Convoy can make a think you can I think Convoy can make a think you can I think Convoy can make a real difference here."

real difference here." real difference here." Um and I really thought and prayed about Um and I really thought and prayed about Um and I really thought and prayed about it, and it, and it, and uh yeah, that was quite a a day when I uh yeah, that was quite a a day when I uh yeah, that was quite a a day when I came back and said, "We're going to came back and said, "We're going to came back and said, "We're going to We're going to start doing an We're going to start doing an We're going to start doing an international work." Um I think people international work." Um I think people international work." Um I think people looked around like I was out of my mind, looked around like I was out of my mind, looked around like I was out of my mind, but uh but uh but uh there have been steps like that with there have been steps like that with there have been steps like that with Katrina, with um where we did like a Katrina, with um where we did like a Katrina, with um where we did like a thousand truckloads. You know, we thousand truckloads. You know, we thousand truckloads. You know, we started with a desire to do a hundred started with a desire to do a hundred started with a desire to do a hundred and it up being a thousand. and it up being a thousand. and it up being a thousand. Again, pivoting forward like we're going Again, pivoting forward like we're going Again, pivoting forward like we're going to do a lot more with a pandemic. to do a lot more with a pandemic. to do a lot more with a pandemic. Um Um Um I I said let's let's distribute 10 I I said let's let's distribute 10 I I said let's let's distribute 10 million meals. million meals. million meals. I went on camera and said we're going to I went on camera and said we're going to I went on camera and said we're going to distribute 10 million meals. Well, distribute 10 million meals. Well, distribute 10 million meals. Well, um God pushed us to provide over 200 um God pushed us to provide over 200 um God pushed us to provide over 200 million million meals. Over 200 million million million meals. Over 200 million million million meals. Over 200 million meals. meals. meals. And so a lot of times the pivot is And so a lot of times the pivot is And so a lot of times the pivot is pivoting forward. My faith is lacking pivoting forward. My faith is lacking pivoting forward. My faith is lacking and God shows that he wants to do more. and God shows that he wants to do more. and God shows that he wants to do more. Um I would say that's there have been Um I would say that's there have been Um I would say that's there have been many examples of that where my faith has many examples of that where my faith has many examples of that where my faith has been less than God's provision.

been less than God's provision. been less than God's provision. Hell, I don't even know how to um how to phrase this and I don't know that how to phrase this and I don't know that you're able to answer it well because of you're able to answer it well because of you're able to answer it well because of the nature of the question. the nature of the question. the nature of the question. But But But often when you think about the growth often when you think about the growth often when you think about the growth and the scale of what Convoy doing, you and the scale of what Convoy doing, you and the scale of what Convoy doing, you meet CEOs, you meet leaders, non even meet CEOs, you meet leaders, non even meet CEOs, you meet leaders, non even non-profit leaders and there's a healthy non-profit leaders and there's a healthy non-profit leaders and there's a healthy ego there. There's a There's a There's a ego there. There's a There's a There's a ego there. There's a There's a There's a sense of big or look at what we're doing sense of big or look at what we're doing sense of big or look at what we're doing next. Um in my time with you, it's the next. Um in my time with you, it's the next. Um in my time with you, it's the opposite vibe. If it would be like opposite vibe. If it would be like opposite vibe. If it would be like you're in a room with a hundred leaders, you're in a room with a hundred leaders, you're in a room with a hundred leaders, it's like spot the spot the CEO here of it's like spot the spot the CEO here of it's like spot the spot the CEO here of Convoy. Most people would be like, okay, Convoy. Most people would be like, okay, Convoy. Most people would be like, okay, we're down to night It's like David we're down to night It's like David we're down to night It's like David going to you know, going to you know, going to you know, it's a like Samuel going through all the it's a like Samuel going through all the it's a like Samuel going through all the sons of David and all of the sudden, you sons of David and all of the sudden, you sons of David and all of the sudden, you know, our sons of Jesse and all of the know, our sons of Jesse and all of the know, our sons of Jesse and all of the sudden, yeah, I got one more he's out in sudden, yeah, I got one more he's out in sudden, yeah, I got one more he's out in the field. And and I don't mean that as the field. And and I don't mean that as the field. And and I don't mean that as a I mean that as a compliment. a I mean that as a compliment. a I mean that as a compliment. I think you're right. It's a I think you're right. It's a I think you're right. It's a There's a culture of humility There's a culture of humility There's a culture of humility um and and it starts with you. um and and it starts with you. um and and it starts with you. And I think it's sorely lacking in the And I think it's sorely lacking in the And I think it's sorely lacking in the church.

church. church. Uh again, I don't know that you can Uh again, I don't know that you can Uh again, I don't know that you can answer this how you would answer this, answer this how you would answer this, answer this how you would answer this, you know, but I would love for you to you know, but I would love for you to you know, but I would love for you to reflect on is that something you've reflect on is that something you've reflect on is that something you've cultivated over the years? Is Is cultivated over the years? Is Is cultivated over the years? Is Is something that that were born with and something that that were born with and something that that were born with and um any other comments you might have for um any other comments you might have for um any other comments you might have for leaders because I think it's it's very leaders because I think it's it's very leaders because I think it's it's very needed in the church and also in my needed in the church and also in my needed in the church and also in my life. life. life. Well, I think you know in my book I I Well, I think you know in my book I I Well, I think you know in my book I I talk a lot about the fact that talk a lot about the fact that talk a lot about the fact that compassion work in particular even compassion work in particular even compassion work in particular even pastoral work can lead to pride because pastoral work can lead to pride because pastoral work can lead to pride because you begin to tell yourself I care more you begin to tell yourself I care more you begin to tell yourself I care more than others care. than others care. than others care. And you begin to uh count the sacrifices And you begin to uh count the sacrifices And you begin to uh count the sacrifices you're making and you know you feel so you're making and you know you feel so you're making and you know you feel so noble and so high and mighty because noble and so high and mighty because noble and so high and mighty because you're doing so much and others aren't you're doing so much and others aren't you're doing so much and others aren't doing enough and doing enough and doing enough and um I'm sure many um face that and um I I um I'm sure many um face that and um I I um I'm sure many um face that and um I I think for me um think for me um think for me um I'm I'm well aware of my flaws and my um I'm I'm well aware of my flaws and my um I'm I'm well aware of my flaws and my um my weaknesses. Um my weaknesses. Um my weaknesses. Um I um I um I um I I just I thank God for whatever reason I I just I thank God for whatever reason I I just I thank God for whatever reason has chosen in spite of my weaknesses to has chosen in spite of my weaknesses to has chosen in spite of my weaknesses to to just uh work through. And I I I guess to just uh work through. And I I I guess to just uh work through. And I I I guess at some point I came to a realization at some point I came to a realization at some point I came to a realization that um that um that um is Jesus loving the world through us?

is Jesus loving the world through us? is Jesus loving the world through us? It's not us. We're just channels of his It's not us. We're just channels of his It's not us. We're just channels of his love to other people and our job is keep love to other people and our job is keep love to other people and our job is keep the channel open. A lot of times through the channel open. A lot of times through the channel open. A lot of times through pride and selfishness we close that pride and selfishness we close that pride and selfishness we close that channel and he can only do so much. We channel and he can only do so much. We channel and he can only do so much. We got to keep it open. And I think when got to keep it open. And I think when got to keep it open. And I think when you understand that you're you're more you understand that you're you're more you understand that you're you're more inclined not to touch the glory or to inclined not to touch the glory or to inclined not to touch the glory or to fall prey to pride. You really are when fall prey to pride. You really are when fall prey to pride. You really are when you understand you're a channel. you understand you're a channel. you understand you're a channel. Period. Period. Period. How have we covered a lot? Is there How have we covered a lot? Is there How have we covered a lot? Is there anything we haven't touched on that you anything we haven't touched on that you anything we haven't touched on that you would like to touch on before we wrap would like to touch on before we wrap would like to touch on before we wrap up? up? up? I just you know I I just you know I I just you know I I This isn't what you're asking for, but I This isn't what you're asking for, but I This isn't what you're asking for, but I want to thank you for the way that you I want to thank you for the way that you I want to thank you for the way that you are serving the church. You really are. are serving the church. You really are. are serving the church. You really are. You're you're meeting a need and um to You're you're meeting a need and um to You're you're meeting a need and um to all uh my brothers and sisters out there all uh my brothers and sisters out there all uh my brothers and sisters out there that maybe are going through a that maybe are going through a that maybe are going through a struggling time right now. struggling time right now. struggling time right now. Um they're struggling, they're hurting, Um they're struggling, they're hurting, Um they're struggling, they're hurting, going through hardship. Um just know going through hardship. Um just know going through hardship. Um just know this that one hardship is the beginning this that one hardship is the beginning this that one hardship is the beginning of God's next miracle.

of God's next miracle. of God's next miracle. God is going to provide you with God is going to provide you with God is going to provide you with miracles. It's You've heard me, I think, miracles. It's You've heard me, I think, miracles. It's You've heard me, I think, say this before. I believe it's very say this before. I believe it's very say this before. I believe it's very linear. It's hardship followed by linear. It's hardship followed by linear. It's hardship followed by miracles, hardship followed by miracles. miracles, hardship followed by miracles. miracles, hardship followed by miracles. You're going through a hard time right You're going through a hard time right You're going through a hard time right now. A miracle's coming. Believe it. now. A miracle's coming. Believe it. now. A miracle's coming. Believe it. Hm. Uh we've seen that again and again Hm. Uh we've seen that again and again Hm. Uh we've seen that again and again in your life. So, Hal's latest book is in your life. So, Hal's latest book is in your life. So, Hal's latest book is called what really matters. It's a great called what really matters. It's a great called what really matters. It's a great read. It's available everywhere. read. It's available everywhere. read. It's available everywhere. Um where can people track with you and Um where can people track with you and Um where can people track with you and Convoy online, Hal? Convoy online, Hal? Convoy online, Hal? Yeah, it's simply convoyofhope.org. Yeah, it's simply convoyofhope.org. Yeah, it's simply convoyofhope.org. And uh if uh they write us, we'll And uh if uh they write us, we'll And uh if uh they write us, we'll respond, for sure. respond, for sure. respond, for sure. You sure do. You sure do. You sure do. Hal, thank you so much. It is really Hal, thank you so much. It is really Hal, thank you so much. It is really inspiring to see your leadership. Um inspiring to see your leadership. Um inspiring to see your leadership. Um just love that spirit you bring to the just love that spirit you bring to the just love that spirit you bring to the work that you're called to do. Ian, I'm work that you're called to do. Ian, I'm work that you're called to do. Ian, I'm absolutely delighted we've been able to absolutely delighted we've been able to absolutely delighted we've been able to spend some time together in the presence spend some time together in the presence spend some time together in the presence of all these leaders. of all these leaders. of all these leaders. It's great to get to know you, Carey. It's great to get to know you, Carey. It's great to get to know you, Carey. Really.