A Leader's Undoing: Secrecy and Exposure with Chuck DeGroat

as we Ascend in Ministry I think as we Ascend in Ministry I think oftentimes we think that will go away oftentimes we think that will go away oftentimes we think that will go away those voices will diminish right but the those voices will diminish right but the those voices will diminish right but the anxiety actually grows um which means anxiety actually grows um which means anxiety actually grows um which means that to some degree the secrecy has to that to some degree the secrecy has to that to some degree the secrecy has to grow you know the hiddenness the um and grow you know the hiddenness the um and grow you know the hiddenness the um and and I I think that that was the case for and I I think that that was the case for and I I think that that was the case for me to some degree you know as I my my me to some degree you know as I my my me to some degree you know as I my my wounds sort of lingered after being wounds sort of lingered after being wounds sort of lingered after being fired there were obviously other wounds fired there were obviously other wounds fired there were obviously other wounds too that I was likely running from but too that I was likely running from but too that I was likely running from but uh there was that sense that it's a uh there was that sense that it's a uh there was that sense that it's a quick um it's a quick anesthetic when quick um it's a quick anesthetic when quick um it's a quick anesthetic when you get to go on stage with Tim Keller you get to go on stage with Tim Keller you get to go on stage with Tim Keller and speak about the spiritual life of a and speak about the spiritual life of a and speak about the spiritual life of a church planter as some sort of expert on church planter as some sort of expert on church planter as some sort of expert on Soul Care you know it feels really good Soul Care you know it feels really good Soul Care you know it feels really good and and you can dup yourself into and and you can dup yourself into and and you can dup yourself into thinking you know I'm I'm I'm okay thinking you know I'm I'm I'm okay thinking you know I'm I'm I'm okay welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube so glad you joined us podcast on YouTube so glad you joined us podcast on YouTube so glad you joined us hey if you're new here subscribe because hey if you're new here subscribe because hey if you're new here subscribe because you will get great conversations like you will get great conversations like you will get great conversations like this I sit down with licensed therapist this I sit down with licensed therapist this I sit down with licensed therapist and professor Chuck deg Gro and we talk and professor Chuck deg Gro and we talk and professor Chuck deg Gro and we talk about secrecy and exposure in leadership about secrecy and exposure in leadership about secrecy and exposure in leadership how your body keeps score of trauma and how your body keeps score of trauma and how your body keeps score of trauma and a whole lot more today's episode is a whole lot more today's episode is a whole lot more today's episode is brought to you by our partners at brought to you by our partners at brought to you by our partners at subsplash and bay how do you move Beyond subsplash and bay how do you move Beyond subsplash and bay how do you move Beyond simply getting people in the door and simply getting people in the door and simply getting people in the door and Foster Real lasting connections that Foster Real lasting connections that Foster Real lasting connections that lead to deeper engagement and a sense of lead to deeper engagement and a sense of lead to deeper engagement and a sense of belonging you can join more than 177,000 belonging you can join more than 177,000 belonging you can join more than 177,000 churches that partner with subsplash to churches that partner with subsplash to churches that partner with subsplash to engage their communities and help their engage their communities and help their engage their communities and help their people grow spiritually go to subsplash people grow spiritually go to subsplash people grow spiritually go to subsplash / carry and when you do you can schedule

/ carry and when you do you can schedule / carry and when you do you can schedule a quick no obligation demo and get $500 a quick no obligation demo and get $500 a quick no obligation demo and get $500 off when you sign up and check out ble off when you sign up and check out ble off when you sign up and check out ble they have a free resource the power of they have a free resource the power of they have a free resource the power of productivity and it's their latest it's productivity and it's their latest it's productivity and it's their latest it's yours absolutely free the guide is full yours absolutely free the guide is full yours absolutely free the guide is full of practical tips and plans to help you of practical tips and plans to help you of practical tips and plans to help you maximize productivity for you and for maximize productivity for you and for maximize productivity for you and for the people you lead to claim it just the people you lead to claim it just the people you lead to claim it just text my name Carrie c a y to text my name Carrie c a y to text my name Carrie c a y to 55123 and now to my conversation with 55123 and now to my conversation with 55123 and now to my conversation with Chuck Chuck welcome back it's great Chuck Chuck welcome back it's great Chuck Chuck welcome back it's great to have you back on the podcast yeah so to have you back on the podcast yeah so to have you back on the podcast yeah so good to be with you Carrie yeah I had a good to be with you Carrie yeah I had a good to be with you Carrie yeah I had a lot of fun last time a lot of fun lot of fun last time a lot of fun lot of fun last time a lot of fun talking about narcissism yeah I don't talking about narcissism yeah I don't talking about narcissism yeah I don't know I mean it's a loaded subject you know I mean it's a loaded subject you know I mean it's a loaded subject you were part of our church mental health were part of our church mental health were part of our church mental health Church Health uh Integrity series which Church Health uh Integrity series which Church Health uh Integrity series which was great got a lot of uh very was great got a lot of uh very was great got a lot of uh very interesting feedback on that episode um interesting feedback on that episode um interesting feedback on that episode um I would love to know what moved you to I would love to know what moved you to I would love to know what moved you to your latest topic you're currently well your latest topic you're currently well your latest topic you're currently well first of all no let's back up yeah when first of all no let's back up yeah when first of all no let's back up yeah when when the book came out what did you hear when the book came out what did you hear when the book came out what did you hear about narcissism I want to kind of tie a about narcissism I want to kind of tie a about narcissism I want to kind of tie a bow on it because everyone's diagnosing bow on it because everyone's diagnosing bow on it because everyone's diagnosing everybody as a narcissist these days everybody as a narcissist these days everybody as a narcissist these days right yeah yeah in fact nowadays now right yeah yeah in fact nowadays now right yeah yeah in fact nowadays now that I'm writing a bit on trauma you that I'm writing a bit on trauma you that I'm writing a bit on trauma you know we use these words pretty know we use these words pretty know we use these words pretty flippantly we overuse we misuse them and flippantly we overuse we misuse them and flippantly we overuse we misuse them and so you know it's it's been really so you know it's it's been really so you know it's it's been really interesting to get the feedback over the interesting to get the feedback over the interesting to get the feedback over the last number of years on narcissism and I last number of years on narcissism and I last number of years on narcissism and I I think two things I think first by and I think two things I think first by and I think two things I think first by and large people have been pretty receptive large people have been pretty receptive large people have been pretty receptive um I grateful to hear that they heard it um I grateful to hear that they heard it um I grateful to hear that they heard it as a nuanced book and not as some sort

as a nuanced book and not as some sort as a nuanced book and not as some sort of attack on pastors of the church um I of attack on pastors of the church um I of attack on pastors of the church um I write as as one who's a pastor for over write as as one who's a pastor for over write as as one who's a pastor for over a decade and who trains pastors so a decade and who trains pastors so a decade and who trains pastors so obviously I'm really committed to that obviously I'm really committed to that obviously I'm really committed to that work uh I think at the same time as you work uh I think at the same time as you work uh I think at the same time as you know we've been in this season this know we've been in this season this know we've been in this season this extended season of Reckoning and so now extended season of Reckoning and so now extended season of Reckoning and so now I think what what I'm hearing a lot of I think what what I'm hearing a lot of I think what what I'm hearing a lot of is okay we know we know that there's a is okay we know we know that there's a is okay we know we know that there's a problem but how do we build the systems problem but how do we build the systems problem but how do we build the systems and structures of Health that we need to and structures of Health that we need to and structures of Health that we need to so let's let's sort of get Beyond triage so let's let's sort of get Beyond triage so let's let's sort of get Beyond triage let's get beyond the you know the let's get beyond the you know the let's get beyond the you know the dumpster fire that we found ourselves in dumpster fire that we found ourselves in dumpster fire that we found ourselves in and let's move toward real structural and let's move toward real structural and let's move toward real structural change so I appreciate that shift I want change so I appreciate that shift I want change so I appreciate that shift I want to you said something that I've explored to you said something that I've explored to you said something that I've explored a little bit with different guests on a little bit with different guests on a little bit with different guests on the podcast but um faith has become I the podcast but um faith has become I the podcast but um faith has become I mean people have been saying it's been mean people have been saying it's been mean people have been saying it's been pop psychology since the 9s but it seems pop psychology since the 9s but it seems pop psychology since the 9s but it seems to really have accelerated everyone's a to really have accelerated everyone's a to really have accelerated everyone's a trauma expert now everyone's good at trauma expert now everyone's good at trauma expert now everyone's good at diagnosing you know I'm pretty sure he's diagnosing you know I'm pretty sure he's diagnosing you know I'm pretty sure he's a narcissist she's a narcissist yeah can a narcissist she's a narcissist yeah can a narcissist she's a narcissist yeah can you talk a little bit more from your you talk a little bit more from your you talk a little bit more from your perspective as an actual trained perspective as an actual trained perspective as an actual trained therapist a professor and a pastor what therapist a professor and a pastor what therapist a professor and a pastor what happens like should we be cautious in happens like should we be cautious in happens like should we be cautious in throwing those terms out what what's throwing those terms out what what's throwing those terms out what what's your advice on that that was part of the your advice on that that was part of the your advice on that that was part of the reason for writing that that earlier reason for writing that that earlier reason for writing that that earlier book is because I think we we use the book is because I think we we use the book is because I think we we use the the language too flippantly and I think the language too flippantly and I think the language too flippantly and I think when you know I I think that there are when you know I I think that there are when you know I I think that there are General Dynamics of narcissism that General Dynamics of narcissism that General Dynamics of narcissism that people are able to name you know they people are able to name you know they people are able to name you know they they see some things they see the sense they see some things they see the sense they see some things they see the sense of entitlement or grandiosity but what

of entitlement or grandiosity but what of entitlement or grandiosity but what what we label as narcissistic what we label as narcissistic what we label as narcissistic personality disorder take some time to personality disorder take some time to personality disorder take some time to to evaluate uh I was telling you Offline to evaluate uh I was telling you Offline to evaluate uh I was telling you Offline that uh I I had the opportunity to do that uh I I had the opportunity to do that uh I I had the opportunity to do some work with a pastor who was accused some work with a pastor who was accused some work with a pastor who was accused of being a narcissist and uh while I use of being a narcissist and uh while I use of being a narcissist and uh while I use particular kinds of testing one of them particular kinds of testing one of them particular kinds of testing one of them is the Milan clinical multiaxial is the Milan clinical multiaxial is the Milan clinical multiaxial inventory and his narcissism score is inventory and his narcissism score is inventory and his narcissism score is actually quite low now there are some actually quite low now there are some actually quite low now there are some other elevations none of them to the other elevations none of them to the other elevations none of them to the level of of severe pathology but it just level of of severe pathology but it just level of of severe pathology but it just goes to show you that uh this this man goes to show you that uh this this man goes to show you that uh this this man was sort of suffering under particular was sort of suffering under particular was sort of suffering under particular kinds of accusations and kinds of accusations and kinds of accusations and characterizations that were were unfair characterizations that were were unfair characterizations that were were unfair we we slowed the process way down and we we we slowed the process way down and we we we slowed the process way down and we got curious to the point where he was got curious to the point where he was got curious to the point where he was able to say okay so it may not be able to say okay so it may not be able to say okay so it may not be narcissism but there's some other things narcissism but there's some other things narcissism but there's some other things that I need to look at but you know it that I need to look at but you know it that I need to look at but you know it was a weighty thing having to weighed was a weighty thing having to weighed was a weighty thing having to weighed through the accusations and the through the accusations and the through the accusations and the characterizations and and and the characterizations and and and the characterizations and and and the implications really for his ministry implications really for his ministry implications really for his ministry possibility of of uh losing his ministry possibility of of uh losing his ministry possibility of of uh losing his ministry and so yeah I think we've got to be very and so yeah I think we've got to be very and so yeah I think we've got to be very very careful uh you know I'm a I'm a very careful uh you know I'm a I'm a very careful uh you know I'm a I'm a licensed therapist and I'm still very licensed therapist and I'm still very licensed therapist and I'm still very careful when I use the language of abuse careful when I use the language of abuse careful when I use the language of abuse or narcissism uh people who know me and or narcissism uh people who know me and or narcissism uh people who know me and see me know I don't immediately jump in see me know I don't immediately jump in see me know I don't immediately jump in and say you're an abuser you're a and say you're an abuser you're a and say you're an abuser you're a narcissist got to be very careful about narcissist got to be very careful about narcissist got to be very careful about how we use that language I think that's how we use that language I think that's how we use that language I think that's really wise so and again it's flying really wise so and again it's flying really wise so and again it's flying around like popcorn on social media around like popcorn on social media around like popcorn on social media these days and on blogs and um any other

these days and on blogs and um any other these days and on blogs and um any other thoughts on that because I want to you thoughts on that because I want to you thoughts on that because I want to you know I'm not going to diagnose you with know I'm not going to diagnose you with know I'm not going to diagnose you with congestive heart failure if I haven't congestive heart failure if I haven't congestive heart failure if I haven't been to med school just because I been to med school just because I been to med school just because I watched a YouTube video or follow watched a YouTube video or follow watched a YouTube video or follow someone on social why you know any someone on social why you know any someone on social why you know any thoughts for those of us who might be thoughts for those of us who might be thoughts for those of us who might be tempted to label people one way or tempted to label people one way or tempted to label people one way or another because we're quote another because we're quote another because we're quote self-appointed expert exps in in mental self-appointed expert exps in in mental self-appointed expert exps in in mental health well you know I mean you you've health well you know I mean you you've health well you know I mean you you've seen this there has been a pretty big seen this there has been a pretty big seen this there has been a pretty big shift and when I was you know trained shift and when I was you know trained shift and when I was you know trained into uh as a pastor and came into into uh as a pastor and came into into uh as a pastor and came into Ministry in the mid 90s you know we Ministry in the mid 90s you know we Ministry in the mid 90s you know we weren't talking about these kinds of weren't talking about these kinds of weren't talking about these kinds of things so there has been a big swing and things so there has been a big swing and things so there has been a big swing and I I I see this as a as a predictable big I I I see this as a as a predictable big I I I see this as a as a predictable big swing and we've got to find some sort of swing and we've got to find some sort of swing and we've got to find some sort of equilibrium that's my sense and and I equilibrium that's my sense and and I equilibrium that's my sense and and I think as as we continue to have these think as as we continue to have these think as as we continue to have these conversations and try to write in conversations and try to write in conversations and try to write in nuanced ways and engage in nuanced ways nuanced ways and engage in nuanced ways nuanced ways and engage in nuanced ways will find a bit of an equilibrium but will find a bit of an equilibrium but will find a bit of an equilibrium but there there has been a with some of the there there has been a with some of the there there has been a with some of the things that have happened that are more things that have happened that are more things that have happened that are more public clearly there's a kind of public clearly there's a kind of public clearly there's a kind of reactive response and I get that pain reactive response and I get that pain reactive response and I get that pain like I want to acknowledge that there's like I want to acknowledge that there's like I want to acknowledge that there's real pain behind he's a narcissist he's real pain behind he's a narcissist he's real pain behind he's a narcissist he's abusive but uh you know for me to do my abusive but uh you know for me to do my abusive but uh you know for me to do my work behind closed doors I've got to be work behind closed doors I've got to be work behind closed doors I've got to be a whole lot more uh nuanced in that so a whole lot more uh nuanced in that so a whole lot more uh nuanced in that so the we we uh I can't afford not nuancing the we we uh I can't afford not nuancing the we we uh I can't afford not nuancing in my work but I get how social media in my work but I get how social media in my work but I get how social media works and uh uh even even if I think works and uh uh even even if I think works and uh uh even even if I think it's pretty fraught at it's pretty fraught at it's pretty fraught at times so you've shifted the focus now times so you've shifted the focus now times so you've shifted the focus now feel like we could spend an hour on that feel like we could spend an hour on that feel like we could spend an hour on that and listen I'm all for you know people

and listen I'm all for you know people and listen I'm all for you know people who are abusive let's deal with it who are abusive let's deal with it who are abusive let's deal with it people who really are narcissistic they people who really are narcissistic they people who really are narcissistic they need help but not everything is trauma need help but not everything is trauma need help but not everything is trauma not you know and and there is that not you know and and there is that not you know and and there is that saying if everything is trauma nothing saying if everything is trauma nothing saying if everything is trauma nothing is trauma you know if my failure to get is trauma you know if my failure to get is trauma you know if my failure to get a parking spot is a traumatic experience a parking spot is a traumatic experience a parking spot is a traumatic experience that really invalidates the experience that really invalidates the experience that really invalidates the experience of of of actually experienced trauma um why have actually experienced trauma um why have actually experienced trauma um why have you shifted your focus now to Healing you shifted your focus now to Healing you shifted your focus now to Healing yeah well it's interesting it's sort of yeah well it's interesting it's sort of yeah well it's interesting it's sort of like at some level we're all a little like at some level we're all a little like at some level we're all a little bit narcissistic but not all of us have bit narcissistic but not all of us have bit narcissistic but not all of us have narcissistic personality disorder right narcissistic personality disorder right narcissistic personality disorder right and the way I like to put it is with the and the way I like to put it is with the and the way I like to put it is with the trauma conversation is we all live in trauma conversation is we all live in trauma conversation is we all live in the the the 1,185 chapters of scripture between 1,185 chapters of scripture between 1,185 chapters of scripture between Genesis 1 and2 and Revelation Genesis 1 and2 and Revelation Genesis 1 and2 and Revelation 21-22 and uh and and we're living in the 21-22 and uh and and we're living in the 21-22 and uh and and we're living in the we're we're living in a story that is in we're we're living in a story that is in we're we're living in a story that is in one sense kind of traumatic you know in one sense kind of traumatic you know in one sense kind of traumatic you know in in this in between uh before Jesus comes in this in between uh before Jesus comes in this in between uh before Jesus comes and makes all things new and at the same and makes all things new and at the same and makes all things new and at the same time not all of us have complex PTSD or time not all of us have complex PTSD or time not all of us have complex PTSD or profound developmental trauma you know profound developmental trauma you know profound developmental trauma you know so we need to be uh again really careful so we need to be uh again really careful so we need to be uh again really careful about our definitions but uh the main about our definitions but uh the main about our definitions but uh the main reason for the shift uh in my writing reason for the shift uh in my writing reason for the shift uh in my writing was uh I'm I do was uh I'm I do was uh I'm I do to the work of sitting with people for to the work of sitting with people for to the work of sitting with people for the sake of healing and I sit with the sake of healing and I sit with the sake of healing and I sit with people and I'm I'm also an observer of people and I'm I'm also an observer of people and I'm I'm also an observer of what goes on in in culture and churches what goes on in in culture and churches what goes on in in culture and churches and social media and social media and social media organizations and we what I saw was a

organizations and we what I saw was a organizations and we what I saw was a lot of people talking about what lot of people talking about what lot of people talking about what happened to them and what I wanted to happened to them and what I wanted to happened to them and what I wanted to shift the conversation to at least in my shift the conversation to at least in my shift the conversation to at least in my work was um the lingering effects within work was um the lingering effects within work was um the lingering effects within so that there are things that do happen so that there are things that do happen so that there are things that do happen to us right and we can all talk about to us right and we can all talk about to us right and we can all talk about the things that happened or should have the things that happened or should have the things that happened or should have happened in our childhoods uh the pain happened in our childhoods uh the pain happened in our childhoods uh the pain that we experienced in Ministry I opened that we experienced in Ministry I opened that we experienced in Ministry I opened the book by by talking about alluding to the book by by talking about alluding to the book by by talking about alluding to a very challenging situation in Ministry a very challenging situation in Ministry a very challenging situation in Ministry for me 20 years ago and I was seething I for me 20 years ago and I was seething I for me 20 years ago and I was seething I was angry I wanted Justice you know I was angry I wanted Justice you know I was angry I wanted Justice you know I was a 33y old Pastor who was uh was a 33y old Pastor who was uh was a 33y old Pastor who was uh incredibly incredibly incredibly frustrated uh and I had to make a turn I frustrated uh and I had to make a turn I frustrated uh and I had to make a turn I had to turn a corner at some point had to turn a corner at some point had to turn a corner at some point shifting from what happened to me much shifting from what happened to me much shifting from what happened to me much of it that I couldn't control right my of it that I couldn't control right my of it that I couldn't control right my my uh need for justice my need for my uh need for justice my need for my uh need for justice my need for reparation I couldn't control a lot of reparation I couldn't control a lot of reparation I couldn't control a lot of that what I could control is uh the that what I could control is uh the that what I could control is uh the lingering impact within me and how I lingering impact within me and how I lingering impact within me and how I dealt with it uh now it took me about dealt with it uh now it took me about dealt with it uh now it took me about six or seven years I landed in a Mexican six or seven years I landed in a Mexican six or seven years I landed in a Mexican hospital I needed Gall blad bladder hospital I needed Gall blad bladder hospital I needed Gall blad bladder surgery but it turned out that my body surgery but it turned out that my body surgery but it turned out that my body was septic they found in this Mexican was septic they found in this Mexican was septic they found in this Mexican hospital so the body kept the score for hospital so the body kept the score for hospital so the body kept the score for me but that for me was a shift in 2012 me but that for me was a shift in 2012 me but that for me was a shift in 2012 to there's some lingering effects of to there's some lingering effects of to there's some lingering effects of what happened to me and it's probably what happened to me and it's probably what happened to me and it's probably best that I attend to them and stop best that I attend to them and stop best that I attend to them and stop dwelling on what happened to me now I dwelling on what happened to me now I dwelling on what happened to me now I don't want to minimize the things that don't want to minimize the things that don't want to minimize the things that happened to us and people's longing for happened to us and people's longing for happened to us and people's longing for justice in in those spaces I mean that

justice in in those spaces I mean that justice in in those spaces I mean that that's a proper conversation uh I don't that's a proper conversation uh I don't that's a proper conversation uh I don't know if you know the writings of Judith know if you know the writings of Judith know if you know the writings of Judith Herman case I don't no no Judith Herman Herman case I don't no no Judith Herman Herman case I don't no no Judith Herman is a longtime trauma practitioner and is a longtime trauma practitioner and is a longtime trauma practitioner and writer and um she's been doing it writer and um she's been doing it writer and um she's been doing it forever so she just wrote a new book forever so she just wrote a new book forever so she just wrote a new book called Truth in repair and it's about called Truth in repair and it's about called Truth in repair and it's about how we get Justice uh for survivors how we get Justice uh for survivors how we get Justice uh for survivors that's not this book though um this is that's not this book though um this is that's not this book though um this is this is really about how we do the work this is really about how we do the work this is really about how we do the work of healing um and that does require a of healing um and that does require a of healing um and that does require a kind of Attunement to uh the lingering kind of Attunement to uh the lingering kind of Attunement to uh the lingering After Effects uh how stressful After Effects uh how stressful After Effects uh how stressful situations do linger within and become situations do linger within and become situations do linger within and become trauma if we're not cared for well we trauma if we're not cared for well we trauma if we're not cared for well we can talk more about that but that was uh can talk more about that but that was uh can talk more about that but that was uh that's what uh that's what uh that's what uh sort of got me to shift to this Focus so sort of got me to shift to this Focus so sort of got me to shift to this Focus so what happened 20 years ago Chuck that what happened 20 years ago Chuck that what happened 20 years ago Chuck that made you so angry and frustrated yeah so made you so angry and frustrated yeah so made you so angry and frustrated yeah so I had served a church for six years uh I had served a church for six years uh I had served a church for six years uh that I thought I'd serve for a lot that I thought I'd serve for a lot that I thought I'd serve for a lot longer I was an associate I was an longer I was an associate I was an longer I was an associate I was an assistant pastor who um uh uh long story assistant pastor who um uh uh long story assistant pastor who um uh uh long story short uh had some conflict with the short uh had some conflict with the short uh had some conflict with the senior pastor um he was a he was a baby senior pastor um he was a he was a baby senior pastor um he was a he was a baby boomer I was a gen xer he was thinking boomer I was a gen xer he was thinking boomer I was a gen xer he was thinking about about things in terms of ministry about about things in terms of ministry about about things in terms of ministry a little bit different than me um I was a little bit different than me um I was a little bit different than me um I was fairly certain I think he was fairly fairly certain I think he was fairly fairly certain I think he was fairly certain I think I was also fairly certain I think I was also fairly certain I think I was also fairly certain that's something I can say today certain that's something I can say today certain that's something I can say today 20 years later that I couldn't see then 20 years later that I couldn't see then 20 years later that I couldn't see then um but all I saw back then was someone

um but all I saw back then was someone um but all I saw back then was someone getting in the way of me thriving in my getting in the way of me thriving in my getting in the way of me thriving in my Ministry we it sort of led us to become Ministry we it sort of led us to become Ministry we it sort of led us to become in battled with one another um which led in battled with one another um which led in battled with one another um which led to a confrontation and me getting fired to a confrontation and me getting fired to a confrontation and me getting fired um incredibly painful situ that felt um incredibly painful situ that felt um incredibly painful situ that felt like a profound Injustice at the time like a profound Injustice at the time like a profound Injustice at the time that required quite a bit of time for me that required quite a bit of time for me that required quite a bit of time for me to see um a bit more Nuance if that to see um a bit more Nuance if that to see um a bit more Nuance if that makes sense um I think there are makes sense um I think there are makes sense um I think there are certainly things that um he needed to certainly things that um he needed to certainly things that um he needed to own and did own we did do some repairs own and did own we did do some repairs own and did own we did do some repairs so that's why I I don't vet that so that's why I I don't vet that so that's why I I don't vet that situation in my book I don't talk about situation in my book I don't talk about situation in my book I don't talk about it U because that happened a long long it U because that happened a long long it U because that happened a long long time ago but in the moment what I'd say time ago but in the moment what I'd say time ago but in the moment what I'd say is in the moment Carrie if uh let's see is in the moment Carrie if uh let's see is in the moment Carrie if uh let's see what was what was going on back then we what was what was going on back then we what was what was going on back then we had Myspace I guess we had AOL chat had Myspace I guess we had AOL chat had Myspace I guess we had AOL chat rooms but in the moment if I were to rooms but in the moment if I were to rooms but in the moment if I were to have gotten on social media in the midst have gotten on social media in the midst have gotten on social media in the midst of my anger and frustration it would not of my anger and frustration it would not of my anger and frustration it would not have looked very pretty and I would have have looked very pretty and I would have have looked very pretty and I would have been very reactive and I think if you been very reactive and I think if you been very reactive and I think if you would have gotten into my head space you would have gotten into my head space you would have gotten into my head space you would have seen things that might have would have seen things that might have would have seen things that might have been frightening you know things that been frightening you know things that been frightening you know things that ways that I wanted retribution you know ways that I wanted retribution you know ways that I wanted retribution you know it took me a while to heal took me a it took me a while to heal took me a it took me a while to heal took me a while to see a bit of a bigger picture while to see a bit of a bigger picture while to see a bit of a bigger picture of what was going on um but it took me of what was going on um but it took me of what was going on um but it took me attending to uh some of of the pain that attending to uh some of of the pain that attending to uh some of of the pain that lingered within what I mean by that is lingered within what I mean by that is lingered within what I mean by that is there was a lot of shame I felt like I there was a lot of shame I felt like I there was a lot of shame I felt like I failed I thought this was my this was failed I thought this was my this was failed I thought this was my this was the end of my Ministry um I thought that the end of my Ministry um I thought that the end of my Ministry um I thought that this would uh accompany me wherever I this would uh accompany me wherever I this would uh accompany me wherever I went it turns out I went on to Pastor um

went it turns out I went on to Pastor um went it turns out I went on to Pastor um across the country in San Francisco had across the country in San Francisco had across the country in San Francisco had quite a bit of success things went well quite a bit of success things went well quite a bit of success things went well um I but but in the moment I had this um I but but in the moment I had this um I but but in the moment I had this sense that I'm I'm done in Ministry and sense that I'm I'm done in Ministry and sense that I'm I'm done in Ministry and so it was profoundly painful um but so it was profoundly painful um but so it was profoundly painful um but there wasn't what was interesting about there wasn't what was interesting about there wasn't what was interesting about that at the time and I'll stop in a that at the time and I'll stop in a that at the time and I'll stop in a moment is that uh I had a lot of people moment is that uh I had a lot of people moment is that uh I had a lot of people around me who were angry about the around me who were angry about the around me who were angry about the situation alongside of me but few who situation alongside of me but few who situation alongside of me but few who are paying attention to how it was are paying attention to how it was are paying attention to how it was lingering within me um the traumatic lingering within me um the traumatic lingering within me um the traumatic After Effects few who are attending you After Effects few who are attending you After Effects few who are attending you know to the sleeplessness uh to the know to the sleeplessness uh to the know to the sleeplessness uh to the shame and that's really what we need to shame and that's really what we need to shame and that's really what we need to do that's what we really need to focus do that's what we really need to focus do that's what we really need to focus on if we want to heal on if we want to heal on if we want to heal I talked to a number of leaders who have I talked to a number of leaders who have I talked to a number of leaders who have been in a similar situation they got been in a similar situation they got been in a similar situation they got fired and and usually when you're fired fired and and usually when you're fired fired and and usually when you're fired you feel there's an injustice right uh you feel there's an injustice right uh you feel there's an injustice right uh rarely does someone say yeah you're rarely does someone say yeah you're rarely does someone say yeah you're totally right I deserve this so there's totally right I deserve this so there's totally right I deserve this so there's a difference of views someone who had a difference of views someone who had a difference of views someone who had power over you let you go it's hard what power over you let you go it's hard what power over you let you go it's hard what did that do to you what were the did that do to you what were the did that do to you what were the lingering impacts inside your mind your lingering impacts inside your mind your lingering impacts inside your mind your heart your spirit your body and I'm heart your spirit your body and I'm heart your spirit your body and I'm thinking you know even you had success thinking you know even you had success thinking you know even you had success after that was that sort of like see after that was that sort of like see after that was that sort of like see look at me or like what what was going look at me or like what what was going look at me or like what what was going on mentally emotionally and physically on mentally emotionally and physically on mentally emotionally and physically in you in the years after yeah so there in you in the years after yeah so there in you in the years after yeah so there there are two levels right so the one is there are two levels right so the one is there are two levels right so the one is the you know what we might call the the you know what we might call the the you know what we might call the shadow side of things where you know the shadow side of things where you know the shadow side of things where you know the things that I didn't want to talk about things that I didn't want to talk about things that I didn't want to talk about how I felt about myself um how small I

how I felt about myself um how small I how I felt about myself um how small I felt how insignificant how ashamed um uh felt how insignificant how ashamed um uh felt how insignificant how ashamed um uh and and um how scared I was to be honest and and um how scared I was to be honest and and um how scared I was to be honest I I felt really really desperate those I I felt really really desperate those I I felt really really desperate those are the things I really didn't want to are the things I really didn't want to are the things I really didn't want to talk about and needed to talk about I talk about and needed to talk about I talk about and needed to talk about I think on the flip side that there was a think on the flip side that there was a think on the flip side that there was a part of me that went into go mode like part of me that went into go mode like part of me that went into go mode like I'm never ever going to let this happen I'm never ever going to let this happen I'm never ever going to let this happen again and so I I think this is often again and so I I think this is often again and so I I think this is often what happens is is um there's a lot what happens is is um there's a lot what happens is is um there's a lot going on within and if we don't sit with going on within and if we don't sit with going on within and if we don't sit with someone who's wise enough to help us someone who's wise enough to help us someone who's wise enough to help us tease these pieces out uh we end up sort tease these pieces out uh we end up sort tease these pieces out uh we end up sort of covering over it or spiritually of covering over it or spiritually of covering over it or spiritually bypassing and I think to some degree bypassing and I think to some degree bypassing and I think to some degree even though I was a trained therapist even though I was a trained therapist even though I was a trained therapist myself working with people I bypassed a myself working with people I bypassed a myself working with people I bypassed a lot of the pain and I went into a go lot of the pain and I went into a go lot of the pain and I went into a go mode that actually allowed me to be mode that actually allowed me to be mode that actually allowed me to be incredibly successful in the next incredibly successful in the next incredibly successful in the next position I took I I started a Counseling position I took I I started a Counseling position I took I I started a Counseling Center we started um something called Center we started um something called Center we started um something called Newan House Of Studies a missional Newan House Of Studies a missional Newan House Of Studies a missional training center out in the Bay Area uh training center out in the Bay Area uh training center out in the Bay Area uh we were engaged I was engaged in a we were engaged I was engaged in a we were engaged I was engaged in a number of different conversations I got number of different conversations I got number of different conversations I got to sit on stage and and talk to T with to sit on stage and and talk to T with to sit on stage and and talk to T with Tim Keller about uh the spiritual health Tim Keller about uh the spiritual health Tim Keller about uh the spiritual health of Church planners all of that um most of Church planners all of that um most of Church planners all of that um most folks would say uh pretty great what a folks would say uh pretty great what a folks would say uh pretty great what a great opportunity but a lot of that was great opportunity but a lot of that was great opportunity but a lot of that was a result of me going into a kind of go a result of me going into a kind of go a result of me going into a kind of go mode or uh what we might more uh mode or uh what we might more uh mode or uh what we might more uh clinically call sympathetic activation clinically call sympathetic activation clinically call sympathetic activation in other words my autonomic nervous in other words my autonomic nervous in other words my autonomic nervous system went into sort of um

system went into sort of um system went into sort of um hyperdrive and uh I was in constant hyperdrive and uh I was in constant hyperdrive and uh I was in constant fight or flight which is an unhealthy fight or flight which is an unhealthy fight or flight which is an unhealthy state to live in over the course of time state to live in over the course of time state to live in over the course of time it's good for a season a car is about to it's good for a season a car is about to it's good for a season a car is about to hit you it's good to turn in the hit you it's good to turn in the hit you it's good to turn in the opposite direction with a bit of opposite direction with a bit of opposite direction with a bit of sympathetic energy it wasn't good for me sympathetic energy it wasn't good for me sympathetic energy it wasn't good for me to live in that place for the for about to live in that place for the for about to live in that place for the for about five or six years okay I want to keep five or six years okay I want to keep five or six years okay I want to keep unpacking that but you mentioned go mode unpacking that but you mentioned go mode unpacking that but you mentioned go mode so go mode is what makes a lot of so go mode is what makes a lot of so go mode is what makes a lot of leaders successful right that drive that leaders successful right that drive that leaders successful right that drive that up at 5:00 a.m. let's go go go go go I'm up at 5:00 a.m. let's go go go go go I'm up at 5:00 a.m. let's go go go go go I'm going to build something one of the going to build something one of the going to build something one of the questions I've been wrestling with in my questions I've been wrestling with in my questions I've been wrestling with in my own life and as I think about other own life and as I think about other own life and as I think about other leaders is how much of my own go mode is leaders is how much of my own go mode is leaders is how much of my own go mode is motivated by past pain like how much of motivated by past pain like how much of motivated by past pain like how much of that is healthy how much of that is not that is healthy how much of that is not that is healthy how much of that is not healthy and I don't know that that is a healthy and I don't know that that is a healthy and I don't know that that is a fun conversation to have with yourself fun conversation to have with yourself fun conversation to have with yourself um do you think a lot of leadership go um do you think a lot of leadership go um do you think a lot of leadership go mode could be potentially motivated by mode could be potentially motivated by mode could be potentially motivated by hurt or pain or desire to prove yourself hurt or pain or desire to prove yourself hurt or pain or desire to prove yourself yeah you know I don't know that I feel yeah you know I don't know that I feel yeah you know I don't know that I feel comfortable saying a lot is motivated by comfortable saying a lot is motivated by comfortable saying a lot is motivated by that I because I work with people that I because I work with people that I because I work with people individually and I I want to I want individually and I I want to I want individually and I I want to I want listen to people's stories on a caseby listen to people's stories on a caseby listen to people's stories on a caseby Case basis what I would say is that I Case basis what I would say is that I Case basis what I would say is that I get to uh do a lot of counseling I do get to uh do a lot of counseling I do get to uh do a lot of counseling I do these five day 15 hour intensives with these five day 15 hour intensives with these five day 15 hour intensives with leaders everyone from mega church leaders everyone from mega church leaders everyone from mega church pastors to rural Church pastors so I get pastors to rural Church pastors so I get pastors to rural Church pastors so I get the whole gamut right and what we the whole gamut right and what we the whole gamut right and what we discover together oftentimes is discover together oftentimes is discover together oftentimes is something of that story that for one

something of that story that for one something of that story that for one reason or another because of my wounds I reason or another because of my wounds I reason or another because of my wounds I ended up going into this mode that I ended up going into this mode that I ended up going into this mode that I didn't even realize but but I began didn't even realize but but I began didn't even realize but but I began noticing symptoms you know I was anxious noticing symptoms you know I was anxious noticing symptoms you know I was anxious all the time I didn't sleep well my back all the time I didn't sleep well my back all the time I didn't sleep well my back started hurting uh I began drinking more started hurting uh I began drinking more started hurting uh I began drinking more whatever the case might be and we will whatever the case might be and we will whatever the case might be and we will often name that as this autonomic state often name that as this autonomic state often name that as this autonomic state of hyperarousal or sympathetic of hyperarousal or sympathetic of hyperarousal or sympathetic activation which is like this hamster activation which is like this hamster activation which is like this hamster wheel leaders live on for for a period wheel leaders live on for for a period wheel leaders live on for for a period of time that works I mean that's the of time that works I mean that's the of time that works I mean that's the strange thing about it is it often Works strange thing about it is it often Works strange thing about it is it often Works uh and they're often very scared of uh and they're often very scared of uh and they're often very scared of getting off and so part of the work that getting off and so part of the work that getting off and so part of the work that I'm doing with them is to say so yeah I'm doing with them is to say so yeah I'm doing with them is to say so yeah what's the cost of getting off that what's the cost of getting off that what's the cost of getting off that hamster wheel are you fearful of getting hamster wheel are you fearful of getting hamster wheel are you fearful of getting off the hamster wheel What would life off the hamster wheel What would life off the hamster wheel What would life look like if you did what would your look like if you did what would your look like if you did what would your body feel like uh and then there's often body feel like uh and then there's often body feel like uh and then there's often a lot to tease out in very subjective a lot to tease out in very subjective a lot to tease out in very subjective ways with leaders around that particular ways with leaders around that particular ways with leaders around that particular conversation so let's pick up your story conversation so let's pick up your story conversation so let's pick up your story then and talk about some of the then and talk about some of the then and talk about some of the lingering effects of that traumatic lingering effects of that traumatic lingering effects of that traumatic firing yeah yeah well so often times I I firing yeah yeah well so often times I I firing yeah yeah well so often times I I talk about uh the the dashboard um as talk about uh the the dashboard um as talk about uh the the dashboard um as our first way of noticing what's going our first way of noticing what's going our first way of noticing what's going on and then the engine as the autonomic on and then the engine as the autonomic on and then the engine as the autonomic nervous system and if we talk about it nervous system and if we talk about it nervous system and if we talk about it in terms of the the dashboard uh what in terms of the the dashboard uh what in terms of the the dashboard uh what you would have noticed what I certainly you would have noticed what I certainly you would have noticed what I certainly noticed uh was was a guy when I talk noticed uh was was a guy when I talk noticed uh was was a guy when I talk about the dashboard I talk about five about the dashboard I talk about five about the dashboard I talk about five aspects of the dashboard of thoughts our

aspects of the dashboard of thoughts our aspects of the dashboard of thoughts our emotions our bodies Our behaviors and emotions our bodies Our behaviors and emotions our bodies Our behaviors and our interpersonal relationships and what our interpersonal relationships and what our interpersonal relationships and what you would have noticed is in each one of you would have noticed is in each one of you would have noticed is in each one of those areas there were yellow if not red those areas there were yellow if not red those areas there were yellow if not red light indicators going off on my light indicators going off on my light indicators going off on my dashboard in other words Shame Shame dashboard in other words Shame Shame dashboard in other words Shame Shame Shame anger anger anger um bodily Shame anger anger anger um bodily Shame anger anger anger um bodily symptoms sematic symptoms lots of symptoms sematic symptoms lots of symptoms sematic symptoms lots of heartburn um IBS symptoms you know uh heartburn um IBS symptoms you know uh heartburn um IBS symptoms you know uh and when we talk about symptoms and when we talk about symptoms and when we talk about symptoms oftentimes we'll go to the doctor we'll oftentimes we'll go to the doctor we'll oftentimes we'll go to the doctor we'll get a medication we'll try to get get a medication we'll try to get get a medication we'll try to get through it quickly right um but these through it quickly right um but these through it quickly right um but these were not symptoms that could be easily were not symptoms that could be easily were not symptoms that could be easily medicated away um I was Caff up in the medicated away um I was Caff up in the medicated away um I was Caff up in the morning and drinking too much alcohol in morning and drinking too much alcohol in morning and drinking too much alcohol in the evening um I was I was I what I the evening um I was I was I what I the evening um I was I was I what I began to notice was that I was pushing began to notice was that I was pushing began to notice was that I was pushing really hard um in particular places really hard um in particular places really hard um in particular places where I didn't have as much expertise I where I didn't have as much expertise I where I didn't have as much expertise I had the pretense of expertise and so had the pretense of expertise and so had the pretense of expertise and so there's my narcissism I was um I was there's my narcissism I was um I was there's my narcissism I was um I was faking it through conversations that I I faking it through conversations that I I faking it through conversations that I I wasn't um an expert in and uh it started wasn't um an expert in and uh it started wasn't um an expert in and uh it started catching up with me in my body the catching up with me in my body the catching up with me in my body the interesting thing about all this and interesting thing about all this and interesting thing about all this and this is what's scary is I was the person this is what's scary is I was the person this is what's scary is I was the person on staff charged with the health of the on staff charged with the health of the on staff charged with the health of the staff charged uh with the health of the staff charged uh with the health of the staff charged uh with the health of the church in large part this was a larger church in large part this was a larger church in large part this was a larger Church in San Francisco the staff was 25 Church in San Francisco the staff was 25 Church in San Francisco the staff was 25 or 30 uh I was leading silent Retreats I or 30 uh I was leading silent Retreats I or 30 uh I was leading silent Retreats I was doing all the things and this is was doing all the things and this is was doing all the things and this is where we're capable of living major where we're capable of living major where we're capable of living major contradictions in our lives I was doing

contradictions in our lives I was doing contradictions in our lives I was doing all the things but uh but it caught up all the things but uh but it caught up all the things but uh but it caught up to me in my body and that's where I say to me in my body and that's where I say to me in my body and that's where I say I was on vacation in Cabo Mexico and I was on vacation in Cabo Mexico and I was on vacation in Cabo Mexico and landed in the hospital wow okay so you landed in the hospital wow okay so you landed in the hospital wow okay so you didn't go to Mexico for treatment you didn't go to Mexico for treatment you didn't go to Mexico for treatment you went there for went there for went there for rest I thought when you first shared it rest I thought when you first shared it rest I thought when you first shared it I'm like okay you went to Mexico for I'm like okay you went to Mexico for I'm like okay you went to Mexico for some some some experimental no you're on vacation I'm experimental no you're on vacation I'm experimental no you're on vacation I'm on vacation so what happened so yeah on vacation so what happened so yeah on vacation so what happened so yeah this is not a story that I've told a this is not a story that I've told a this is not a story that I've told a whole lot so uh um because it feels whole lot so uh um because it feels whole lot so uh um because it feels vulnerable I mean I I go to Mexico and I vulnerable I mean I I go to Mexico and I vulnerable I mean I I go to Mexico and I yeah we we wanted some rest we were yeah we we wanted some rest we were yeah we we wanted some rest we were there with some friends who um weren't there with some friends who um weren't there with some friends who um weren't followers of Jesus and so you know followers of Jesus and so you know followers of Jesus and so you know Pastor Chuck is thinking about this as Pastor Chuck is thinking about this as Pastor Chuck is thinking about this as an opportunity to connect with some an opportunity to connect with some an opportunity to connect with some people in a deeper way in a vacation people in a deeper way in a vacation people in a deeper way in a vacation setting and but I'm loading up on setting and but I'm loading up on setting and but I'm loading up on ibuprofen and um I'm treating my body's ibuprofen and um I'm treating my body's ibuprofen and um I'm treating my body's um sort of ACH my aching um back and um sort of ACH my aching um back and um sort of ACH my aching um back and belly with alcohol in the evening and um belly with alcohol in the evening and um belly with alcohol in the evening and um I'm standing in a shower late at night I'm standing in a shower late at night I'm standing in a shower late at night with the warm water sort pulsing on my with the warm water sort pulsing on my with the warm water sort pulsing on my back to relieve the symptoms and finally back to relieve the symptoms and finally back to relieve the symptoms and finally my wife says on day day four like you my wife says on day day four like you my wife says on day day four like you can't do this anymore we've got to get can't do this anymore we've got to get can't do this anymore we've got to get you into the hospital and I was so you into the hospital and I was so you into the hospital and I was so dehydrated I mean they dehydrated I mean they dehydrated I mean they um uh they couldn't even get an IV into um uh they couldn't even get an IV into um uh they couldn't even get an IV into me I mean it took an hour to get an IV me I mean it took an hour to get an IV me I mean it took an hour to get an IV into me they ran a number of tests and into me they ran a number of tests and into me they ran a number of tests and of course there's a language barrier for of course there's a language barrier for of course there's a language barrier for me and and finally they do an ultrasound me and and finally they do an ultrasound me and and finally they do an ultrasound and they F find gallstones lots of and they F find gallstones lots of and they F find gallstones lots of gallstones in fact they start laughing gallstones in fact they start laughing gallstones in fact they start laughing um and here's here's the part that made

um and here's here's the part that made um and here's here's the part that made me laugh or maybe cry they come to me me laugh or maybe cry they come to me me laugh or maybe cry they come to me and they say we need to do surgery right and they say we need to do surgery right and they say we need to do surgery right away away away as in you can't go home with these gall as in you can't go home with these gall as in you can't go home with these gall stones you're in danger uh that'll be stones you're in danger uh that'll be stones you're in danger uh that'll be $30,000 please do you have a credit card $30,000 please do you have a credit card $30,000 please do you have a credit card um but when they go in to do the surgery um but when they go in to do the surgery um but when they go in to do the surgery they find that my system is septic and they find that my system is septic and they find that my system is septic and this is what was revealing so that's this is what was revealing so that's this is what was revealing so that's fatal right if it's un I mean they're fatal right if it's un I mean they're fatal right if it's un I mean they're they're looking at me and they're saying they're looking at me and they're saying they're looking at me and they're saying you're B you're 40 years old Chuck uh so you're B you're 40 years old Chuck uh so you're B you're 40 years old Chuck uh so this was in uh 2024 now is 2012 so I was this was in uh 2024 now is 2012 so I was this was in uh 2024 now is 2012 so I was 42 years old um they say you're body 42 years old um they say you're body 42 years old um they say you're body looks like the body of a 60 60-year-old looks like the body of a 60 60-year-old looks like the body of a 60 60-year-old at this point you know you are you're at this point you know you are you're at this point you know you are you're not healthy and so I laid in bed the not healthy and so I laid in bed the not healthy and so I laid in bed the only English speaking network was the only English speaking network was the only English speaking network was the NFL Network at the time that was the NFL Network at the time that was the NFL Network at the time that was the only Channel that I could watch during only Channel that I could watch during only Channel that I could watch during the off season I didn't have any books the off season I didn't have any books the off season I didn't have any books with me uh my my family ended up leaving with me uh my my family ended up leaving with me uh my my family ended up leaving because I was uh I had a friend stay because I was uh I had a friend stay because I was uh I had a friend stay with me and I I had a lot of time to sit with me and I I had a lot of time to sit with me and I I had a lot of time to sit and think and process what do I want to and think and process what do I want to and think and process what do I want to do with this do with this do with this um and that's you know where Bessel um and that's you know where Bessel um and that's you know where Bessel Vander gets that title the body keeps Vander gets that title the body keeps Vander gets that title the body keeps the score right I mean the body had kept the score right I mean the body had kept the score right I mean the body had kept the score for the score for the score for me wow so what was the beginning of the me wow so what was the beginning of the me wow so what was the beginning of the road out for you well so I you road out for you well so I you road out for you well so I you know I had know I had know I had uh I had built a number of different uh I had built a number of different uh I had built a number of different Ministries in the church uh again fairly Ministries in the church uh again fairly Ministries in the church uh again fairly successfully and I had this sense that

successfully and I had this sense that successfully and I had this sense that um I felt a bit trapped at honestly at um I felt a bit trapped at honestly at um I felt a bit trapped at honestly at that point not just trapped in what I'd that point not just trapped in what I'd that point not just trapped in what I'd done but also trapped in the Persona done but also trapped in the Persona done but also trapped in the Persona that I created of a an exceptionally that I created of a an exceptionally that I created of a an exceptionally healthy human being and um I was healthy human being and um I was healthy human being and um I was honestly I was really embarrassed by it honestly I was really embarrassed by it honestly I was really embarrassed by it and um I was finishing We were finishing and um I was finishing We were finishing and um I was finishing We were finishing a series we had done this kind of a series we had done this kind of a series we had done this kind of bookended Series where we walking bookended Series where we walking bookended Series where we walking through a early book that I had written through a early book that I had written through a early book that I had written on the Exodus story and I remember on the Exodus story and I remember on the Exodus story and I remember having to get up and speak at the last having to get up and speak at the last having to get up and speak at the last event and um I felt out of body you know event and um I felt out of body you know event and um I felt out of body you know that out-of- body experience that you that out-of- body experience that you that out-of- body experience that you have when you feel completely have when you feel completely have when you feel completely inauthentic like I had not lived this inauthentic like I had not lived this inauthentic like I had not lived this and um I was in a heap of trouble and it and um I was in a heap of trouble and it and um I was in a heap of trouble and it was around that time that a possibility was around that time that a possibility was around that time that a possibility arose of of of Shifting my vocation my arose of of of Shifting my vocation my arose of of of Shifting my vocation my work to uh West Michigan coming on work to uh West Michigan coming on work to uh West Michigan coming on faculty at a seminary at a small faculty at a seminary at a small faculty at a seminary at a small Regional Seminary where I wouldn't have Regional Seminary where I wouldn't have Regional Seminary where I wouldn't have to be in charge of anyone I wouldn't to be in charge of anyone I wouldn't to be in charge of anyone I wouldn't have to start have to start have to start anything and I felt in that both dread anything and I felt in that both dread anything and I felt in that both dread because I love San Francisco and I was I because I love San Francisco and I was I because I love San Francisco and I was I don't want to leave San Francisco I love don't want to leave San Francisco I love don't want to leave San Francisco I love this as a as a as a geography I love my this as a as a as a geography I love my this as a as a as a geography I love my job and what I get to do and I sort of job and what I get to do and I sort of job and what I get to do and I sort of love the platform that it's beginning to love the platform that it's beginning to love the platform that it's beginning to give me and at the same time my give me and at the same time my give me and at the same time my intuition is telling me Chuck you have intuition is telling me Chuck you have intuition is telling me Chuck you have to make a significant change to get to make a significant change to get to make a significant change to get yourself into a place where you're not yourself into a place where you're not yourself into a place where you're not doing as much and where your your body doing as much and where your your body doing as much and where your your body can begin to heal I don't know that I can begin to heal I don't know that I can begin to heal I don't know that I fully knew all of that at the time but I fully knew all of that at the time but I fully knew all of that at the time but I knew I knew not you know now the grass knew I knew not you know now the grass knew I knew not you know now the grass is not always greener right but in this

is not always greener right but in this is not always greener right but in this particular where you go there you are particular where you go there you are particular where you go there you are right there you are this particular case right there you are this particular case right there you are this particular case it it afforded me it created the it it afforded me it created the it it afforded me it created the conditions for me to begin to do more conditions for me to begin to do more conditions for me to begin to do more intentional work about re-engaging my my intentional work about re-engaging my my intentional work about re-engaging my my body amidst this massive well as I body amidst this massive well as I body amidst this massive well as I talked about in the book with trauma talked about in the book with trauma talked about in the book with trauma this massive disconnect this massive this massive disconnect this massive this massive disconnect this massive self-alienation uh estrangement from self-alienation uh estrangement from self-alienation uh estrangement from myself that had uh sort of grown and myself that had uh sort of grown and myself that had uh sort of grown and compounded over the course of a number compounded over the course of a number compounded over the course of a number of years I think there's probably more of years I think there's probably more of years I think there's probably more than a few leaders listening who could than a few leaders listening who could than a few leaders listening who could identify with your story um maybe you identify with your story um maybe you identify with your story um maybe you know undiagnosable symptoms cuz that's know undiagnosable symptoms cuz that's know undiagnosable symptoms cuz that's generally what happens if it's um you generally what happens if it's um you generally what happens if it's um you know somatic symptoms that are generally know somatic symptoms that are generally know somatic symptoms that are generally because of psychological distress which because of psychological distress which because of psychological distress which literally means Soul distress right literally means Soul distress right literally means Soul distress right that's what it means that's what it means that's what it means originally that often you can get a pill originally that often you can get a pill originally that often you can get a pill but it's not solving the problem or but it's not solving the problem or but it's not solving the problem or there are times where you might get there are times where you might get there are times where you might get known as well Chuck's the healthiest guy known as well Chuck's the healthiest guy known as well Chuck's the healthiest guy in the church and meanwhile you know in the church and meanwhile you know in the church and meanwhile you know you're medicating yourself with caffeine you're medicating yourself with caffeine you're medicating yourself with caffeine and alcohol and got all these symptoms and alcohol and got all these symptoms and alcohol and got all these symptoms Etc yeah what would you say to leaders Etc yeah what would you say to leaders Etc yeah what would you say to leaders who might hear themselves in that who might hear themselves in that who might hear themselves in that story uh you know I'd say if you're story uh you know I'd say if you're story uh you know I'd say if you're listening right now it probably feels listening right now it probably feels listening right now it probably feels exposing you know I I I know it it feels exposing you know I I I know it it feels exposing you know I I I know it it feels exposing even to say it out loud years exposing even to say it out loud years exposing even to say it out loud years later um but I it there there's probably later um but I it there there's probably later um but I it there there's probably a part of you that's resonating and a part of you that's resonating and a part of you that's resonating and feels a bit vulnerable and feels a a

feels a bit vulnerable and feels a a feels a bit vulnerable and feels a a little bit exposed right now and another little bit exposed right now and another little bit exposed right now and another part of you that's wanting to kind of part of you that's wanting to kind of part of you that's wanting to kind of put a lid on it right away you know that put a lid on it right away you know that put a lid on it right away you know that we play this game of whack-a-mole with we play this game of whack-a-mole with we play this game of whack-a-mole with our souls I think sometimes where it's our souls I think sometimes where it's our souls I think sometimes where it's like something comes up and knock it like something comes up and knock it like something comes up and knock it down and um but but I'd say lean into down and um but but I'd say lean into down and um but but I'd say lean into the vulnerability um now it's the vulnerability um now it's the vulnerability um now it's challenging I mean I'd say the challenging I mean I'd say the challenging I mean I'd say the conversations that I had after that as I conversations that I had after that as I conversations that I had after that as I Was preparing to leave I wasn't fully Was preparing to leave I wasn't fully Was preparing to leave I wasn't fully honest about what was going on inside of honest about what was going on inside of honest about what was going on inside of me I don't think I was ready to be me I don't think I was ready to be me I don't think I was ready to be honest um and I think I gave myself to honest um and I think I gave myself to honest um and I think I gave myself to some degree some per permission to tell some degree some per permission to tell some degree some per permission to tell a version of the story that I was okay a version of the story that I was okay a version of the story that I was okay with at the at the time but what I know with at the at the time but what I know with at the at the time but what I know is that I needed to lean into the work is that I needed to lean into the work is that I needed to lean into the work and I I began to do that work uh at a and I I began to do that work uh at a and I I began to do that work uh at a not just a psychological or soul level not just a psychological or soul level not just a psychological or soul level but a b bodily level in the weeks and but a b bodily level in the weeks and but a b bodily level in the weeks and and years after but I would say lean in and years after but I would say lean in and years after but I would say lean in um knowing that it's a bit exposing a um knowing that it's a bit exposing a um knowing that it's a bit exposing a bit vulnerable and and and hard but bit vulnerable and and and hard but bit vulnerable and and and hard but that's where the Healing that's where the Healing that's where the Healing Begins so I'm going to use this term and Begins so I'm going to use this term and Begins so I'm going to use this term and feel free to substitute a more accurate feel free to substitute a more accurate feel free to substitute a more accurate term but I think of it in terms of term but I think of it in terms of term but I think of it in terms of cognitive dissonance when you know that cognitive dissonance when you know that cognitive dissonance when you know that something is happening inside you yeah something is happening inside you yeah something is happening inside you yeah that is not consistent with the public that is not consistent with the public that is not consistent with the public Persona right you you're you're almost Persona right you you're you're almost Persona right you you're you're almost living two lives there's a private living two lives there's a private living two lives there's a private reality that you're afraid to admit we reality that you're afraid to admit we reality that you're afraid to admit we live in an era where unfortunately live in an era where unfortunately live in an era where unfortunately leader after leader is being exposed leader after leader is being exposed leader after leader is being exposed falling it's the great Reckoning etc etc falling it's the great Reckoning etc etc falling it's the great Reckoning etc etc um is this a contributing factor to that

um is this a contributing factor to that um is this a contributing factor to that is the cognitive dissonance like is is the cognitive dissonance like is is the cognitive dissonance like is there a certain point at which you can there a certain point at which you can there a certain point at which you can no longer live with that kind of double no longer live with that kind of double no longer live with that kind of double reality do you see the the meaning under reality do you see the the meaning under reality do you see the the meaning under the question I haven't got the technical the question I haven't got the technical the question I haven't got the technical terminology yeah I do and I think a lot terminology yeah I do and I think a lot terminology yeah I do and I think a lot of us begin there right a lot of us of us begin there right a lot of us of us begin there right a lot of us begin in seminary with a an in begin in seminary with a an in begin in seminary with a an in insecurity a shame even around am I am I insecurity a shame even around am I am I insecurity a shame even around am I am I enough can I do it will I be able to do enough can I do it will I be able to do enough can I do it will I be able to do it and um it's interesting as we as we it and um it's interesting as we as we it and um it's interesting as we as we Ascend in Ministry I think oftentimes we Ascend in Ministry I think oftentimes we Ascend in Ministry I think oftentimes we think that will go away those voices think that will go away those voices think that will go away those voices will diminish right but the anxiety will diminish right but the anxiety will diminish right but the anxiety actually grows um which means that to actually grows um which means that to actually grows um which means that to some degree the secrecy has to grow you some degree the secrecy has to grow you some degree the secrecy has to grow you know the hiddenness the um and and I I know the hiddenness the um and and I I know the hiddenness the um and and I I think that that was the case for me to think that that was the case for me to think that that was the case for me to some degree you know as I my my wounds some degree you know as I my my wounds some degree you know as I my my wounds sort of lingered after being fired there sort of lingered after being fired there sort of lingered after being fired there were obviously other wounds too that I were obviously other wounds too that I were obviously other wounds too that I was likely running from but uh there was was likely running from but uh there was was likely running from but uh there was that sense that it's a quick um it's a that sense that it's a quick um it's a that sense that it's a quick um it's a quick anesthetic when you get to go on quick anesthetic when you get to go on quick anesthetic when you get to go on stage with Tim Keller and speak about stage with Tim Keller and speak about stage with Tim Keller and speak about the spiritual life of a church planter the spiritual life of a church planter the spiritual life of a church planter as some sort of expert on Soul Care you as some sort of expert on Soul Care you as some sort of expert on Soul Care you know it feels really good and and you know it feels really good and and you know it feels really good and and you can dup yourself into thinking you know can dup yourself into thinking you know can dup yourself into thinking you know I'm I'm I'm okay I've got this drinking I'm I'm I'm okay I've got this drinking I'm I'm I'm okay I've got this drinking under control um you know it's I I I'll under control um you know it's I I I'll under control um you know it's I I I'll get through I I'll sleep a little bit get through I I'll sleep a little bit get through I I'll sleep a little bit more next week you know but I can push more next week you know but I can push more next week you know but I can push myself for the rest of this week you myself for the rest of this week you myself for the rest of this week you know you sort of dup yourself into know you sort of dup yourself into know you sort of dup yourself into thinking that you're okay and the thinking that you're okay and the thinking that you're okay and the reality was um I wasn't okay and I think reality was um I wasn't okay and I think reality was um I wasn't okay and I think where a lot of leaders find themselves I

where a lot of leaders find themselves I where a lot of leaders find themselves I mean what's interesting about these mean what's interesting about these mean what's interesting about these five-day intensives that I do is you five-day intensives that I do is you five-day intensives that I do is you know it'll take two or three days but a know it'll take two or three days but a know it'll take two or three days but a leader will say to me you know at the leader will say to me you know at the leader will say to me you know at the end of day two early day three like I end of day two early day three like I end of day two early day three like I think I need to say a bit more than I've think I need to say a bit more than I've think I need to say a bit more than I've been saying you I've been talking about been saying you I've been talking about been saying you I've been talking about it kind of sort of affects my marriage it kind of sort of affects my marriage it kind of sort of affects my marriage and I sometimes wonder if this is what I and I sometimes wonder if this is what I and I sometimes wonder if this is what I should be doing but but let me tell you should be doing but but let me tell you should be doing but but let me tell you what's really going on and uh that's what's really going on and uh that's what's really going on and uh that's where the conversations get uh re really where the conversations get uh re really where the conversations get uh re really beautiful I I mean I love those beautiful I I mean I love those beautiful I I mean I love those conversations they feel really sacred in conversations they feel really sacred in conversations they feel really sacred in part because I know that story I know part because I know that story I know part because I know that story I know that Journey um I've lived with the that Journey um I've lived with the that Journey um I've lived with the secrets I've lived hidden I've lived secrets I've lived hidden I've lived secrets I've lived hidden I've lived with the contradictions and the with the contradictions and the with the contradictions and the cognitive dissonance and um and I know cognitive dissonance and um and I know cognitive dissonance and um and I know that fear that we all have of failure of that fear that we all have of failure of that fear that we all have of failure of exposure of you know the shame that exposure of you know the shame that exposure of you know the shame that might sort of bubble back up if we begin might sort of bubble back up if we begin might sort of bubble back up if we begin to tell our to tell our to tell our secrets so here's a here's a big secrets so here's a here's a big secrets so here's a here's a big question does that mean like is Ministry question does that mean like is Ministry question does that mean like is Ministry is leadership just a trap because we're is leadership just a trap because we're is leadership just a trap because we're all wounded we all struggle and yet all wounded we all struggle and yet all wounded we all struggle and yet people always assume the best of us and people always assume the best of us and people always assume the best of us and that we have it all together or they that we have it all together or they that we have it all together or they assume the worst of us and they just assume the worst of us and they just assume the worst of us and they just disappear or criticize or whatever like disappear or criticize or whatever like disappear or criticize or whatever like are we just setting ourselves up to fail are we just setting ourselves up to fail are we just setting ourselves up to fail like is there something systemic in this like is there something systemic in this like is there something systemic in this that is just you cannot that is just you cannot that is just you cannot win yeah I mean I I've been doing this win yeah I mean I I've been doing this win yeah I mean I I've been doing this long enough and I suspect you've been long enough and I suspect you've been long enough and I suspect you've been doing it long enough for quite a long doing it long enough for quite a long doing it long enough for quite a long time right that uh I I think this is

time right that uh I I think this is time right that uh I I think this is part and parcel of the work you know part and parcel of the work you know part and parcel of the work you know like I I think when I when I work now like I I think when I when I work now like I I think when I when I work now with Seminary students and they graduate with Seminary students and they graduate with Seminary students and they graduate and they've done some really good work I and they've done some really good work I and they've done some really good work I have a sense and I've seen this happen have a sense and I've seen this happen have a sense and I've seen this happen over the last now I've been in seminary over the last now I've been in seminary over the last now I've been in seminary education for about 11 years I have this education for about 11 years I have this education for about 11 years I have this sense that in two or three years the sense that in two or three years the sense that in two or three years the church is going to grow a little bit church is going to grow a little bit church is going to grow a little bit they're gon to have some success I'm G they're gon to have some success I'm G they're gon to have some success I'm G to see some things start popping up in to see some things start popping up in to see some things start popping up in Facebook they're going to want to write Facebook they're going to want to write Facebook they're going to want to write their first book uh they're gonna start their first book uh they're gonna start their first book uh they're gonna start a podcast they're going to do you know a podcast they're going to do you know a podcast they're going to do you know these they're going to be some typical these they're going to be some typical these they're going to be some typical things happen we can build into them things happen we can build into them things happen we can build into them valuable resources for um valuable resources for um valuable resources for um emotional uh uh selfawareness emotional uh uh selfawareness emotional uh uh selfawareness intelligence uh growth maturity and at intelligence uh growth maturity and at intelligence uh growth maturity and at the same time there are just these the same time there are just these the same time there are just these inevitable kinds of um U obstacles that inevitable kinds of um U obstacles that inevitable kinds of um U obstacles that they're going to have to face along the they're going to have to face along the they're going to have to face along the way uh my hope is always that they'll way uh my hope is always that they'll way uh my hope is always that they'll have a good coach uh Pastor uh Mentor have a good coach uh Pastor uh Mentor have a good coach uh Pastor uh Mentor spiritual director therapist in their spiritual director therapist in their spiritual director therapist in their lives to ask good questions but I think lives to ask good questions but I think lives to ask good questions but I think this is just part of the journey and I I this is just part of the journey and I I this is just part of the journey and I I do think it's you know it's part of the do think it's you know it's part of the do think it's you know it's part of the job how many of us get to get on stage job how many of us get to get on stage job how many of us get to get on stage and say in the name of the Lord you know and say in the name of the Lord you know and say in the name of the Lord you know and and offer a sermon right I mean uh and and offer a sermon right I mean uh and and offer a sermon right I mean uh how many of us are confident enough to how many of us are confident enough to how many of us are confident enough to do that speak on behalf of God teach do that speak on behalf of God teach do that speak on behalf of God teach God's word you know so there is God's word you know so there is God's word you know so there is something about uh the work of ministry something about uh the work of ministry something about uh the work of ministry that is that is that is fraud well we're wounded healers right fraud well we're wounded healers right fraud well we're wounded healers right in that respect I feel like you know in that respect I feel like you know in that respect I feel like you know there might be a little bit I don't know

there might be a little bit I don't know there might be a little bit I don't know whether you would see that incident in whether you would see that incident in whether you would see that incident in Cabo as Cabo as Cabo as a okay I I you know I burned out in 2006 a okay I I you know I burned out in 2006 a okay I I you know I burned out in 2006 18 years ago and you know the church was 18 years ago and you know the church was 18 years ago and you know the church was growing there was no major it was more growing there was no major it was more growing there was no major it was more like I just couldn't keep up and I like I just couldn't keep up and I like I just couldn't keep up and I didn't declare a Finish Line so my body didn't declare a Finish Line so my body didn't declare a Finish Line so my body did and it was like the most sobering did and it was like the most sobering did and it was like the most sobering staggering wakeup call of my life up staggering wakeup call of my life up staggering wakeup call of my life up until that point and I feel like you until that point and I feel like you until that point and I feel like you know at first I was really upset ashamed know at first I was really upset ashamed know at first I was really upset ashamed kind well not I don't know that I was kind well not I don't know that I was kind well not I don't know that I was ashamed I'm like when you're broken ashamed I'm like when you're broken ashamed I'm like when you're broken you're broken right you got no choice you're broken right you got no choice you're broken right you got no choice it's like I'm busted here yeah I had hit it's like I'm busted here yeah I had hit it's like I'm busted here yeah I had hit bottom and I had a really good group of bottom and I had a really good group of bottom and I had a really good group of Elders long story short about nine years Elders long story short about nine years Elders long story short about nine years after that happened I remember the first after that happened I remember the first after that happened I remember the first time I gave thanks for that I'm like oh time I gave thanks for that I'm like oh time I gave thanks for that I'm like oh that was merciful because if this had that was merciful because if this had that was merciful because if this had kept going there could have been way kept going there could have been way kept going there could have been way more at stake I might have done more at stake I might have done more at stake I might have done something that ruined my marriage I something that ruined my marriage I something that ruined my marriage I could have done something that could have done something that could have done something that disqualified IED me you know I i' had disqualified IED me you know I i' had disqualified IED me you know I i' had some things that I definitely am doing some things that I definitely am doing some things that I definitely am doing differently now but it wasn't you know a differently now but it wasn't you know a differently now but it wasn't you know a major Scandal so to speak but had that major Scandal so to speak but had that major Scandal so to speak but had that kept going I could see the trajectory to kept going I could see the trajectory to kept going I could see the trajectory to where that was leading and I feel like where that was leading and I feel like where that was leading and I feel like it was a merciful intervention at the it was a merciful intervention at the it was a merciful intervention at the end of the day and I've been very end of the day and I've been very end of the day and I've been very careful and very different in the last careful and very different in the last careful and very different in the last 18 years since and I'm wondering if that 18 years since and I'm wondering if that 18 years since and I'm wondering if that was a little bit like you in Cabo like was a little bit like you in Cabo like was a little bit like you in Cabo like whether you can look back on that years whether you can look back on that years whether you can look back on that years later and go that was painful but it was later and go that was painful but it was later and go that was painful but it was a bit of an intervention like what do a bit of an intervention like what do

a bit of an intervention like what do you think would have happened had that you think would have happened had that you think would have happened had that kept going for me I'm I'm terrified to kept going for me I'm I'm terrified to kept going for me I'm I'm terrified to think of what might have happened yeah I think of what might have happened yeah I think of what might have happened yeah I I think I'm probably a bit terrified too I think I'm probably a bit terrified too I think I'm probably a bit terrified too I'm not entirely sure what would have I'm not entirely sure what would have I'm not entirely sure what would have happened but I I do think that um things happened but I I do think that um things happened but I I do think that um things were going well right and so I had no were going well right and so I had no were going well right and so I had no reason to want to shift um and uh well reason to want to shift um and uh well reason to want to shift um and uh well the church went through some significant the church went through some significant the church went through some significant changes in the years to come so there changes in the years to come so there changes in the years to come so there would have been some inevitable changes would have been some inevitable changes would have been some inevitable changes but there there is this sense though but there there is this sense though but there there is this sense though that what that uh that helped get me that what that uh that helped get me that what that uh that helped get me over was this sense that even as now one over was this sense that even as now one over was this sense that even as now one who trains pastors and therapists that who trains pastors and therapists that who trains pastors and therapists that there's some sort of magic that I can there's some sort of magic that I can there's some sort of magic that I can work as a professor and a mentor to put work as a professor and a mentor to put work as a professor and a mentor to put someone on a path that leads to sort of someone on a path that leads to sort of someone on a path that leads to sort of inevitable um growth without pain you inevitable um growth without pain you inevitable um growth without pain you know like that somehow some way uh that know like that somehow some way uh that know like that somehow some way uh that there's this Secret Sauce there's this there's this Secret Sauce there's this there's this Secret Sauce there's this recipe that we can conjure up here in recipe that we can conjure up here in recipe that we can conjure up here in seminary work or pastoral train whatever seminary work or pastoral train whatever seminary work or pastoral train whatever kind of training that you get that just kind of training that you get that just kind of training that you get that just allows someone to continue to grow allows someone to continue to grow allows someone to continue to grow without failures because I had I had the without failures because I had I had the without failures because I had I had the best kind of training like I was trained best kind of training like I was trained best kind of training like I was trained as a therapist in a highly as a therapist in a highly as a therapist in a highly transformational program I mean with um transformational program I mean with um transformational program I mean with um the the the person who was in my life in the the the person who was in my life in the the the person who was in my life in in a deep way was profoundly connected in a deep way was profoundly connected in a deep way was profoundly connected to Gerald May and Brennan Manning and to Gerald May and Brennan Manning and to Gerald May and Brennan Manning and David men Benner and Gary Moon and and David men Benner and Gary Moon and and David men Benner and Gary Moon and and we had to go through we had to go we had to go through we had to go we had to go through we had to go through like this boot camp of the soul through like this boot camp of the soul through like this boot camp of the soul in my late 20s right so I had like I had in my late 20s right so I had like I had in my late 20s right so I had like I had the best kind of formation and my own

the best kind of formation and my own the best kind of formation and my own wounds caught up with me um and I uh I wounds caught up with me um and I uh I wounds caught up with me um and I uh I lived into the kind of persona of like lived into the kind of persona of like lived into the kind of persona of like I'm going to get it together and I'm I'm going to get it together and I'm I'm going to get it together and I'm gonna con you you'll see I'll conquer gonna con you you'll see I'll conquer gonna con you you'll see I'll conquer the I'll never put myself in a place the I'll never put myself in a place the I'll never put myself in a place where anyone can fire me ever again um where anyone can fire me ever again um where anyone can fire me ever again um so I am disavowed of any sense that um I so I am disavowed of any sense that um I so I am disavowed of any sense that um I can do some magic with students like can do some magic with students like can do some magic with students like we're all going to go through our 2006 we're all going to go through our 2006 we're all going to go through our 2006 moment 2011 moment these different moment 2011 moment these different moment 2011 moment these different moments it's how I think we respond to moments it's how I think we respond to moments it's how I think we respond to them who comes around us uh you know I I them who comes around us uh you know I I them who comes around us uh you know I I think it it it implicates the systems think it it it implicates the systems think it it it implicates the systems and structures that we're within the and structures that we're within the and structures that we're within the denominations and networks and how we denominations and networks and how we denominations and networks and how we hold pain um how we meet leaders in the hold pain um how we meet leaders in the hold pain um how we meet leaders in the midst of those uh uh painful places midst of those uh uh painful places midst of those uh uh painful places those really vulnerable places do we those really vulnerable places do we those really vulnerable places do we shame them or do we say oh no I get it shame them or do we say oh no I get it shame them or do we say oh no I get it I've been there too and uh there's a I've been there too and uh there's a I've been there too and uh there's a healing path for you so let's start healing path for you so let's start healing path for you so let's start talking about the healing path I mean if talking about the healing path I mean if talking about the healing path I mean if there was a better way and we know there was a better way and we know there was a better way and we know there's no Silver Bullet there's no there's no Silver Bullet there's no there's no Silver Bullet there's no magic we live on this side of Heaven as magic we live on this side of Heaven as magic we live on this side of Heaven as you say we live in between those you say we live in between those you say we live in between those chapters of Genesis 1 and revelation 22 chapters of Genesis 1 and revelation 22 chapters of Genesis 1 and revelation 22 get it um what is a better path so that get it um what is a better path so that get it um what is a better path so that you don't blow up not only your life but you don't blow up not only your life but you don't blow up not only your life but the life of the people closest to you the life of the people closest to you the life of the people closest to you and sometimes the life of a congregation and sometimes the life of a congregation and sometimes the life of a congregation a whole Community if you have a public a whole Community if you have a public a whole Community if you have a public platform thousands hundreds of thousands platform thousands hundreds of thousands platform thousands hundreds of thousands of people who followed you etc etc what of people who followed you etc etc what of people who followed you etc etc what is a what are what are some steps toward is a what are what are some steps toward is a what are what are some steps toward a a better less destructive

a a better less destructive a a better less destructive path yeah I mean we can only talk about path yeah I mean we can only talk about path yeah I mean we can only talk about a few in our limited time but I think I a few in our limited time but I think I a few in our limited time but I think I I think I always be begin with the I think I always be begin with the I think I always be begin with the classic uh path of self-examination you classic uh path of self-examination you classic uh path of self-examination you know it goes back to St Augustine know it goes back to St Augustine know it goes back to St Augustine writing nine chapters in his confessions writing nine chapters in his confessions writing nine chapters in his confessions about his own pain and addiction about his own pain and addiction about his own pain and addiction beginning chapter 10 with let me know beginning chapter 10 with let me know beginning chapter 10 with let me know myself and let me know you like there is myself and let me know you like there is myself and let me know you like there is this really important this really important this really important work of getting to know ourselves and work of getting to know ourselves and work of getting to know ourselves and getting to know our stories which I getting to know our stories which I getting to know our stories which I think is invaluable and I I I'm finding think is invaluable and I I I'm finding think is invaluable and I I I'm finding more and more pastors curious about that more and more pastors curious about that more and more pastors curious about that you know what what is my story what are you know what what is my story what are you know what what is my story what are my wounds what do I need to address um my wounds what do I need to address um my wounds what do I need to address um how do I show up in ways that are how do I show up in ways that are how do I show up in ways that are relationally painful or Pro problematic relationally painful or Pro problematic relationally painful or Pro problematic what's my impact I think another piece I what's my impact I think another piece I what's my impact I think another piece I often put uh self-regulation alongside often put uh self-regulation alongside often put uh self-regulation alongside self-examination which is to say um how self-examination which is to say um how self-examination which is to say um how do we become aware of that engine of the do we become aware of that engine of the do we become aware of that engine of the the autonomic nervous system and when we the autonomic nervous system and when we the autonomic nervous system and when we are living in that sympath constant are living in that sympath constant are living in that sympath constant sympathetic activation because when I sympathetic activation because when I sympathetic activation because when I work with pastors what what what I'll work with pastors what what what I'll work with pastors what what what I'll often find is they'll come in with uh often find is they'll come in with uh often find is they'll come in with uh some good self-examination like I've got some good self-examination like I've got some good self-examination like I've got some tools and I've looked at my life some tools and I've looked at my life some tools and I've looked at my life and I've seen a therapist um we'll talk and I've seen a therapist um we'll talk and I've seen a therapist um we'll talk about anxiety and they'll say I feel a about anxiety and they'll say I feel a about anxiety and they'll say I feel a little bit of anxiety but I don't have a little bit of anxiety but I don't have a little bit of anxiety but I don't have a ton of anxiety but when we go beneath ton of anxiety but when we go beneath ton of anxiety but when we go beneath the surface what we find is an autonomic the surface what we find is an autonomic the surface what we find is an autonomic nervous system in go mode in overdrive nervous system in go mode in overdrive nervous system in go mode in overdrive in in in hyperarousal and and so the question is hyperarousal and and so the question is hyperarousal and and so the question is well how did I get there and invariably well how did I get there and invariably well how did I get there and invariably we find some connection to early wounds we find some connection to early wounds we find some connection to early wounds in a person's life why I guess I learned

in a person's life why I guess I learned in a person's life why I guess I learned to do that really early on when when it to do that really early on when when it to do that really early on when when it was like I I had to be the best in my was like I I had to be the best in my was like I I had to be the best in my class or I had to win at sports or you class or I had to win at sports or you class or I had to win at sports or you know I I wanted to make my dad proud and know I I wanted to make my dad proud and know I I wanted to make my dad proud and so these early vows that we you know we so these early vows that we you know we so these early vows that we you know we take that show up in our lives many take that show up in our lives many take that show up in our lives many years later and and you discover I've years later and and you discover I've years later and and you discover I've been on this hamster wheel for 20 years been on this hamster wheel for 20 years been on this hamster wheel for 20 years 30 years 40 years years and I haven't 30 years 40 years years and I haven't 30 years 40 years years and I haven't gotten off so I talk about gotten off so I talk about gotten off so I talk about self-examination or self-awareness self-examination or self-awareness self-examination or self-awareness self-regulation um there's a lot more self-regulation um there's a lot more self-regulation um there's a lot more that we can talk about I'll just mention that we can talk about I'll just mention that we can talk about I'll just mention one more connection Community uh we know one more connection Community uh we know one more connection Community uh we know that um trauma is not what happens to that um trauma is not what happens to that um trauma is not what happens to you but what happens within you in the you but what happens within you in the you but what happens within you in the absence of a compassionate witness absence of a compassionate witness absence of a compassionate witness that's G mate's definition so trauma that's G mate's definition so trauma that's G mate's definition so trauma happens in the absence of connection happens in the absence of connection happens in the absence of connection Community a compassionate witness and so Community a compassionate witness and so Community a compassionate witness and so when things are going on in our lives when things are going on in our lives when things are going on in our lives who is bearing witness who can I let in who is bearing witness who can I let in who is bearing witness who can I let in and the reality is is during those and the reality is is during those and the reality is is during those critical years after I was fired I I let critical years after I was fired I I let critical years after I was fired I I let people in at a distance you know but I people in at a distance you know but I people in at a distance you know but I didn't really let people in close to say didn't really let people in close to say didn't really let people in close to say you know really what's going on is you you know really what's going on is you you know really what's going on is you see me as fairly successful right now see me as fairly successful right now see me as fairly successful right now but I'm in a go mode in large part part but I'm in a go mode in large part part but I'm in a go mode in large part part because I'm desperate I don't want to because I'm desperate I don't want to because I'm desperate I don't want to fail again and I I feel like uh I need fail again and I I feel like uh I need fail again and I I feel like uh I need to take care of my family and I need I to take care of my family and I need I to take care of my family and I need I feel like my my reputation and my feel like my my reputation and my feel like my my reputation and my Ministry is writing on my like I didn't Ministry is writing on my like I didn't Ministry is writing on my like I didn't have anyone to let into that I finally have anyone to let into that I finally have anyone to let into that I finally started talking to a therapist about started talking to a therapist about started talking to a therapist about that those are just three things we that those are just three things we that those are just three things we could talk about a whole lot more can we

could talk about a whole lot more can we could talk about a whole lot more can we dial back a little bit and talk about dial back a little bit and talk about dial back a little bit and talk about the I'm gonna get this word right I hope the I'm gonna get this word right I hope the I'm gonna get this word right I hope autonomic like responses that we have autonomic like responses that we have autonomic like responses that we have the nervous system and that that little the nervous system and that that little the nervous system and that that little hamster wheel so I'll give you an hamster wheel so I'll give you an hamster wheel so I'll give you an example from my own life because this example from my own life because this example from my own life because this podcast is also free therapy by the way podcast is also free therapy by the way podcast is also free therapy by the way uh for me so you know I try to be as uh for me so you know I try to be as uh for me so you know I try to be as transparent as I know how to with transparent as I know how to with transparent as I know how to with listeners so I had a profile done a listeners so I had a profile done a listeners so I had a profile done a couple years ago and it profiles you couple years ago and it profiles you couple years ago and it profiles you against the general population and then against the general population and then against the general population and then it profiles you against quote it profiles you against quote it profiles you against quote high-capacity leaders and so there's high-capacity leaders and so there's high-capacity leaders and so there's always variations right even compared to always variations right even compared to always variations right even compared to high-capacity leaders my propensity for high-capacity leaders my propensity for high-capacity leaders my propensity for activity is off the charts he says activity is off the charts he says activity is off the charts he says you're almost pathological you can't you're almost pathological you can't you're almost pathological you can't stop which explains a lot of my life stop which explains a lot of my life stop which explains a lot of my life it's like you know the question for it's like you know the question for it's like you know the question for years for me was how do you get it all years for me was how do you get it all years for me was how do you get it all done you lead a church it's growing you done you lead a church it's growing you done you lead a church it's growing you write a blog you have a podcast you do write a blog you have a podcast you do write a blog you have a podcast you do this you do that you speak you travel this you do that you speak you travel this you do that you speak you travel how do you get it all done and I'm like how do you get it all done and I'm like how do you get it all done and I'm like it's not that hard that was probably a it's not that hard that was probably a it's not that hard that was probably a nervous system response or some kind of nervous system response or some kind of nervous system response or some kind of learn Behavior to activity and through learn Behavior to activity and through learn Behavior to activity and through the Council of counselors and family and the Council of counselors and family and the Council of counselors and family and friends I have learned to slow down friends I have learned to slow down friends I have learned to slow down Embrace Hobbies all of that to the point Embrace Hobbies all of that to the point Embrace Hobbies all of that to the point where I think I'm probably not as where I think I'm probably not as where I think I'm probably not as pathological as I was 5 years ago but pathological as I was 5 years ago but pathological as I was 5 years ago but who knows I mean I should probably get who knows I mean I should probably get who knows I mean I should probably get BAS again are you talking about that BAS again are you talking about that BAS again are you talking about that kind of stuff that will show up like kind of stuff that will show up like kind of stuff that will show up like what what would be some typical what what would be some typical what what would be some typical behaviors that would show up as a form behaviors that would show up as a form behaviors that would show up as a form of hey these need to be regulated well of hey these need to be regulated well of hey these need to be regulated well so let's talk about it less in terms of

so let's talk about it less in terms of so let's talk about it less in terms of behavior more in terms of autonomic behavior more in terms of autonomic behavior more in terms of autonomic nervous system States for a second okay nervous system States for a second okay nervous system States for a second okay this is what I mean by that I think that this is what I mean by that I think that this is what I mean by that I think that if if those if if those if if those behaviors um if that activity is is behaviors um if that activity is is behaviors um if that activity is is coming out of sympathetic activation um coming out of sympathetic activation um coming out of sympathetic activation um in other words it's being driven by this in other words it's being driven by this in other words it's being driven by this sort of f flight um which probably gets sort of f flight um which probably gets sort of f flight um which probably gets back to some of how you survived and back to some of how you survived and back to some of how you survived and adapted and coped from childhood that's adapted and coped from childhood that's adapted and coped from childhood that's a problem whatever that looks like a problem whatever that looks like a problem whatever that looks like however that shows up and I have people however that shows up and I have people however that shows up and I have people tell me all the time but what if it's tell me all the time but what if it's tell me all the time but what if it's fruitful what if it's for the Lord you fruitful what if it's for the Lord you fruitful what if it's for the Lord you know I don't care how it shows up if know I don't care how it shows up if know I don't care how it shows up if it's born out of that sort of fight ORF it's born out of that sort of fight ORF it's born out of that sort of fight ORF flight mode or Fawn mode then it's it's flight mode or Fawn mode then it's it's flight mode or Fawn mode then it's it's likely problematic however I think about likely problematic however I think about likely problematic however I think about this in terms of emotional intelligence this in terms of emotional intelligence this in terms of emotional intelligence if you're connected to your true self if you're connected to your true self if you're connected to your true self I'll use my own language if from an I'll use my own language if from an I'll use my own language if from an autonomic nervous system perspective autonomic nervous system perspective autonomic nervous system perspective you're Anchored In what we call the you're Anchored In what we call the you're Anchored In what we call the ventral state which is a state of calm ventral state which is a state of calm ventral state which is a state of calm grounding centered activity centered grounding centered activity centered grounding centered activity centered engagement if you are able to rest and engagement if you are able to rest and engagement if you are able to rest and if your work comes out of a place of if your work comes out of a place of if your work comes out of a place of grounding um I I have worked with high grounding um I I have worked with high grounding um I I have worked with high capacity leaders who uh who are able to capacity leaders who uh who are able to capacity leaders who uh who are able to engage in higher Act of activity than I engage in higher Act of activity than I engage in higher Act of activity than I am but from a very grounded place and so am but from a very grounded place and so am but from a very grounded place and so I don't judge people based on activity I don't judge people based on activity I don't judge people based on activity so it's output no no because we're all so it's output no no because we're all so it's output no no because we're all different um and and um we all have

different um and and um we all have different um and and um we all have different stories this gets back to I I different stories this gets back to I I different stories this gets back to I I want to sit with people I want to listen want to sit with people I want to listen want to sit with people I want to listen very carefully but um I I've known very carefully but um I I've known very carefully but um I I've known people I've known some really um high people I've known some really um high people I've known some really um high capacity leaders who have done good work capacity leaders who have done good work capacity leaders who have done good work they're quite grounded and they're uh they're quite grounded and they're uh they're quite grounded and they're uh and the energy is we would call a vental and the energy is we would call a vental and the energy is we would call a vental energy not a sympathetic energy if you energy not a sympathetic energy if you energy not a sympathetic energy if you know what I mean ventral coming from know what I mean ventral coming from know what I mean ventral coming from that core you know imagine someone doing that core you know imagine someone doing that core you know imagine someone doing core work bodily ventro coming from that core work bodily ventro coming from that core work bodily ventro coming from that course so there's that sense that um course so there's that sense that um course so there's that sense that um it's it's born out of a deep sense of it's it's born out of a deep sense of it's it's born out of a deep sense of grounding identity Center rest and grounding identity Center rest and grounding identity Center rest and there's a fundamental resilience uh and there's a fundamental resilience uh and there's a fundamental resilience uh and I I would say you know that's the true I I would say you know that's the true I I would say you know that's the true healthy high capacity leader right there healthy high capacity leader right there healthy high capacity leader right there well that makes me feel better I would well that makes me feel better I would well that makes me feel better I would say not there yet but more and more I say not there yet but more and more I say not there yet but more and more I mean I do these interviews in the mean I do these interviews in the mean I do these interviews in the afternoon I spent most of the morning afternoon I spent most of the morning afternoon I spent most of the morning writing brand new material some Keynotes writing brand new material some Keynotes writing brand new material some Keynotes for a live event we're doing next month for a live event we're doing next month for a live event we're doing next month in Dallas and never presented this in Dallas and never presented this in Dallas and never presented this material before it's very vulnerable material before it's very vulnerable material before it's very vulnerable it's very personal and designed to it's very personal and designed to it's very personal and designed to really help leaders in the room and it's really help leaders in the room and it's really help leaders in the room and it's that sense of I get God's pleasure like that sense of I get God's pleasure like that sense of I get God's pleasure like when I'm creating out of this and it's when I'm creating out of this and it's when I'm creating out of this and it's not a nervous energy it's a it's like a not a nervous energy it's a it's like a not a nervous energy it's a it's like a process of discovery and joy but I would process of discovery and joy but I would process of discovery and joy but I would also say uh I'm less interested in also say uh I'm less interested in also say uh I'm less interested in quantity and more interested in quality quantity and more interested in quality quantity and more interested in quality the older I get so it's not like oh I the older I get so it's not like oh I the older I get so it's not like oh I got to throw this on social right now got to throw this on social right now got to throw this on social right now and then I'll do a podcast about it it's and then I'll do a podcast about it it's and then I'll do a podcast about it it's like no I could sit with this for a like no I could sit with this for a like no I could sit with this for a little while um okay helpful how else

little while um okay helpful how else little while um okay helpful how else does that show up in leaders lives you does that show up in leaders lives you does that show up in leaders lives you do I think in your new book talk about do I think in your new book talk about do I think in your new book talk about addiction quite a bit right you addiction quite a bit right you addiction quite a bit right you mentioned your own struggle with alcohol mentioned your own struggle with alcohol mentioned your own struggle with alcohol caffeine Etc um what are some other caffeine Etc um what are some other caffeine Etc um what are some other addictions I was addicted to work for addictions I was addicted to work for addictions I was addicted to work for sure 100% what are some other sure 100% what are some other sure 100% what are some other addictions yeah well I mean I think you addictions yeah well I mean I think you addictions yeah well I mean I think you have your big addictions that when have your big addictions that when have your big addictions that when people name you know gets a bit people name you know gets a bit people name you know gets a bit frightening you know you talk about sex frightening you know you talk about sex frightening you know you talk about sex addiction and alcohol addiction and addiction and alcohol addiction and addiction and alcohol addiction and others like that I see um I see I see others like that I see um I see I see others like that I see um I see I see that kind of stuff all the time right I that kind of stuff all the time right I that kind of stuff all the time right I think um what I'm more attuned to are think um what I'm more attuned to are think um what I'm more attuned to are the addictions that wouldn't get the addictions that wouldn't get the addictions that wouldn't get people's attention um that that are people's attention um that that are people's attention um that that are forms of numbing or disconnection forms of numbing or disconnection forms of numbing or disconnection thinking even about social media I was thinking even about social media I was thinking even about social media I was talking to a friend recently and I was talking to a friend recently and I was talking to a friend recently and I was trying to be honest I said I I'm not on trying to be honest I said I I'm not on trying to be honest I said I I'm not on social media a lot I try to do it like social media a lot I try to do it like social media a lot I try to do it like three times a day I might dip my toe in three times a day I might dip my toe in three times a day I might dip my toe in I might offer something up you know but I might offer something up you know but I might offer something up you know but I'm not I'm not going back to look at I'm not I'm not going back to look at I'm not I'm not going back to look at likes and responses and stuff like that likes and responses and stuff like that likes and responses and stuff like that but I but I said every time I go on your but I but I said every time I go on your but I but I said every time I go on your your output is high and I don't want to your output is high and I don't want to your output is high and I don't want to assume again just like we were talking assume again just like we were talking assume again just like we were talking about I don't want to assume that about I don't want to assume that about I don't want to assume that there's a problem there right but I'm there's a problem there right but I'm there's a problem there right but I'm talking about every 15 or 20 minutes and talking about every 15 or 20 minutes and talking about every 15 or 20 minutes and it and I said you know it feels kind of it and I said you know it feels kind of it and I said you know it feels kind of reactive like it feels like you're in reactive like it feels like you're in reactive like it feels like you're in fight mode and can we get curious about fight mode and can we get curious about fight mode and can we get curious about that would you be willing to have a that would you be willing to have a that would you be willing to have a conversation and and it turned out that conversation and and it turned out that conversation and and it turned out that his his drug of choice in a sense was his his drug of choice in a sense was his his drug of choice in a sense was he'd get on at a very early time of day

he'd get on at a very early time of day he'd get on at a very early time of day and start scrolling his body would in be and start scrolling his body would in be and start scrolling his body would in be in constant sympathetic activation and in constant sympathetic activation and in constant sympathetic activation and uh part of his um part of his addiction uh part of his um part of his addiction uh part of his um part of his addiction was there was this sense in which he was there was this sense in which he was there was this sense in which he when he got it out when he finally he when he got it out when he finally he when he got it out when he finally he got that tweet out he and he hit send got that tweet out he and he hit send got that tweet out he and he hit send there was this palpable sense of there was this palpable sense of there was this palpable sense of soothing soothing soothing like but then something else came up and like but then something else came up and like but then something else came up and someone pushed back and then the fight someone pushed back and then the fight someone pushed back and then the fight starts to uh come up again and then he starts to uh come up again and then he starts to uh come up again and then he starts to think about well how do I want starts to think about well how do I want starts to think about well how do I want to engage that and he sends the Tweet to engage that and he sends the Tweet to engage that and he sends the Tweet out and there's this ah and and I said out and there's this ah and and I said out and there's this ah and and I said well there it is there's the addiction well there it is there's the addiction well there it is there's the addiction right and so there ways in which we're right and so there ways in which we're right and so there ways in which we're addicted that we're not even aware of I addicted that we're not even aware of I addicted that we're not even aware of I think our workaholism you know that that think our workaholism you know that that think our workaholism you know that that sense that when I think about sense that when I think about sense that when I think about workaholism I don't just think about it workaholism I don't just think about it workaholism I don't just think about it in terms of the hours that you spend at in terms of the hours that you spend at in terms of the hours that you spend at your job I think of waking up in the your job I think of waking up in the your job I think of waking up in the morning and immediately jumping on email morning and immediately jumping on email morning and immediately jumping on email you know and uh uh and that that sense you know and uh uh and that that sense you know and uh uh and that that sense of of uh anxiety that sense of of of uh anxiety that sense of of of uh anxiety that sense of hypervigilance that people have like oh hypervigilance that people have like oh hypervigilance that people have like oh no I'm expecting that email or my boss no I'm expecting that email or my boss no I'm expecting that email or my boss has that new task for me or what if I've has that new task for me or what if I've has that new task for me or what if I've gotten behind or what if I've missed gotten behind or what if I've missed gotten behind or what if I've missed something that constantly accompanies us something that constantly accompanies us something that constantly accompanies us uh throughout our days uh throughout our days uh throughout our days um it it looks like religious um it it looks like religious um it it looks like religious perfectionism you know this moralism and perfectionism you know this moralism and perfectionism you know this moralism and self-righteousness and this addiction to self-righteousness and this addiction to self-righteousness and this addiction to certainty that we're seeing all over the certainty that we're seeing all over the certainty that we're seeing all over the place in Christendom right and these are place in Christendom right and these are place in Christendom right and these are not things that will necessarily get you not things that will necessarily get you not things that will necessarily get you fired you know if if if I was an fired you know if if if I was an fired you know if if if I was an alcoholic I might have gotten fired if I alcoholic I might have gotten fired if I alcoholic I might have gotten fired if I you know was a sex addict I might have

you know was a sex addict I might have you know was a sex addict I might have gotten fired but my religious gotten fired but my religious gotten fired but my religious perfectionism might actually look pretty perfectionism might actually look pretty perfectionism might actually look pretty good my religious alism right and so good my religious alism right and so good my religious alism right and so those are the things that I think I'm uh those are the things that I think I'm uh those are the things that I think I'm uh I'm attuned to just a bit more than I'm attuned to just a bit more than I'm attuned to just a bit more than perhaps I I was when I I was coming up perhaps I I was when I I was coming up perhaps I I was when I I was coming up as a young pastor and therapist do you as a young pastor and therapist do you as a young pastor and therapist do you have any other thoughts on the addiction have any other thoughts on the addiction have any other thoughts on the addiction to certainty this is something I'm to certainty this is something I'm to certainty this is something I'm noticing as well and would love to hear noticing as well and would love to hear noticing as well and would love to hear more from you on it Chuck yeah well you more from you on it Chuck yeah well you more from you on it Chuck yeah well you know Jim Wilder do you know the name Jim know Jim Wilder do you know the name Jim know Jim Wilder do you know the name Jim Wilder he's a neuro Theologian he's been Wilder he's a neuro Theologian he's been Wilder he's a neuro Theologian he's been uh he uh was good friends with Dallas uh he uh was good friends with Dallas uh he uh was good friends with Dallas Willard uh in fact uh there's a really Willard uh in fact uh there's a really Willard uh in fact uh there's a really fascinating story of their relationship fascinating story of their relationship fascinating story of their relationship late in Dallas Willard's life and how late in Dallas Willard's life and how late in Dallas Willard's life and how Willard started shifting to a bit more Willard started shifting to a bit more Willard started shifting to a bit more of a psychological framework for how of a psychological framework for how of a psychological framework for how people grow and change anyway Jim Wilder people grow and change anyway Jim Wilder people grow and change anyway Jim Wilder uh wrote about enemy mode and enemy mode uh wrote about enemy mode and enemy mode uh wrote about enemy mode and enemy mode is really fight it's sympathetic is really fight it's sympathetic is really fight it's sympathetic activation and the re the reality of our activation and the re the reality of our activation and the re the reality of our autonomic nervous system is when we are autonomic nervous system is when we are autonomic nervous system is when we are in sympathetic activation we're in in sympathetic activation we're in in sympathetic activation we're in survival mode which is to say um these survival mode which is to say um these survival mode which is to say um these capacities within us evolved as a way of capacities within us evolved as a way of capacities within us evolved as a way of of um engaging Danger The Lion is coming of um engaging Danger The Lion is coming of um engaging Danger The Lion is coming at me I need to run in the opposite at me I need to run in the opposite at me I need to run in the opposite direction um you know uh a storm is direction um you know uh a storm is direction um you know uh a storm is coming I need to build my house stronger coming I need to build my house stronger coming I need to build my house stronger and better you know like that's fight and better you know like that's fight and better you know like that's fight mode uh now fight mode looks like uh I I mode uh now fight mode looks like uh I I mode uh now fight mode looks like uh I I need to go um I I need to become the need to go um I I need to become the need to go um I I need to become the aggressor um you know from the pulpit on aggressor um you know from the pulpit on aggressor um you know from the pulpit on social media in my marriage um fight social media in my marriage um fight social media in my marriage um fight fight mode can look like a a kind of

fight mode can look like a a kind of fight mode can look like a a kind of self-righteousness where when you're in self-righteousness where when you're in self-righteousness where when you're in that mode you've shifted out of this that mode you've shifted out of this that mode you've shifted out of this this physiological and spiritual state this physiological and spiritual state this physiological and spiritual state of ventral where you're grounded calm of ventral where you're grounded calm of ventral where you're grounded calm connected centered what what I what I connected centered what what I what I connected centered what what I what I call at home in your body um and now call at home in your body um and now call at home in your body um and now you're in a mode where you're you're in a mode where you're you're in a mode where you're disconnected and uh really un I'd say disconnected and uh really un I'd say disconnected and uh really un I'd say incapable of connecting because you're incapable of connecting because you're incapable of connecting because you're in a kind of survival mode and and where in a kind of survival mode and and where in a kind of survival mode and and where you're what you're operating out of is a you're what you're operating out of is a you're what you're operating out of is a kind of fight response that it looks kind of fight response that it looks kind of fight response that it looks self-righteous and looks certain but uh self-righteous and looks certain but uh self-righteous and looks certain but uh from a compassionate point of view is is from a compassionate point of view is is from a compassionate point of view is is merely a way of surviving in the world merely a way of surviving in the world merely a way of surviving in the world it's like I when I when I work with it's like I when I when I work with it's like I when I when I work with people like this I'm I'm curious about people like this I'm I'm curious about people like this I'm I'm curious about the story behind that where did that the story behind that where did that the story behind that where did that start and invariably it was like well start and invariably it was like well start and invariably it was like well you know I had to fight with my dad when you know I had to fight with my dad when you know I had to fight with my dad when I was young I was in trouble a lot you I was young I was in trouble a lot you I was young I was in trouble a lot you know and so we just started battling know and so we just started battling know and so we just started battling when I was six years old i' get into when I was six years old i' get into when I was six years old i' get into verbal sparring matches with my dad I verbal sparring matches with my dad I verbal sparring matches with my dad I now now I'm 45 years old and I'm doing now now I'm 45 years old and I'm doing now now I'm 45 years old and I'm doing it from the it from the it from the pulpit okay so sympathetic activation pulpit okay so sympathetic activation pulpit okay so sympathetic activation would be non-voluntary would be non-voluntary would be non-voluntary subconscious responses that are kind of subconscious responses that are kind of subconscious responses that are kind of self self self self self self yeah that are survival based and yeah yeah that are survival based and yeah yeah that are survival based and yeah you might say self soothing and um and you might say self soothing and um and you might say self soothing and um and uh we we can't make moral judgments uh we we can't make moral judgments uh we we can't make moral judgments about our nervous system because our about our nervous system because our about our nervous system because our nervous system just responds as it as it nervous system just responds as it as it nervous system just responds as it as it uh as it interprets data right as it I uh as it interprets data right as it I uh as it interprets data right as it I was going to use the word neuropep was going to use the word neuropep was going to use the word neuropep that's the more te technical word but as that's the more te technical word but as that's the more te technical word but as our body neuros SPS what's coming at us

our body neuros SPS what's coming at us our body neuros SPS what's coming at us uh from our environment so if you think uh from our environment so if you think uh from our environment so if you think your tribe is in danger you're going to your tribe is in danger you're going to your tribe is in danger you're going to go into aggressive certainty mode go into aggressive certainty mode go into aggressive certainty mode whatever tribe you're in whether you're whatever tribe you're in whether you're whatever tribe you're in whether you're the Uber conservative or the Uber the Uber conservative or the Uber the Uber conservative or the Uber Progressive or the you know the kind of Progressive or the you know the kind of Progressive or the you know the kind of enlightened middle or whatever you are enlightened middle or whatever you are enlightened middle or whatever you are you know you can go into certainty you know you can go into certainty you know you can go into certainty mode so mode so mode so self-examination self-regulation what self-examination self-regulation what self-examination self-regulation what are some keys to self-regulation you're are some keys to self-regulation you're are some keys to self-regulation you're addicted to social media you are into addicted to social media you are into addicted to social media you are into religious perfectionism you realize and religious perfectionism you realize and religious perfectionism you realize and by the way this sells certainty sells by the way this sells certainty sells by the way this sells certainty sells right now it's like I've got the answers right now it's like I've got the answers right now it's like I've got the answers everybody's got questions it's a very everybody's got questions it's a very everybody's got questions it's a very uncertain time people listening are uncertain time people listening are uncertain time people listening are realizing uhoh this is maybe not as realizing uhoh this is maybe not as realizing uhoh this is maybe not as healthy as I thought it was what do you healthy as I thought it was what do you healthy as I thought it was what do you do yeah so when we talk about do yeah so when we talk about do yeah so when we talk about self-regulation I I think I'm a little self-regulation I I think I'm a little self-regulation I I think I'm a little bit fearful of the pop psychology and bit fearful of the pop psychology and bit fearful of the pop psychology and self-help that's coming out nowadays self-help that's coming out nowadays self-help that's coming out nowadays where people are talking a lot about where people are talking a lot about where people are talking a lot about trauma and anxiety and they're they're trauma and anxiety and they're they're trauma and anxiety and they're they're offering lots of techniqueyoutube uh do this breathing exercise or um uh uh do this breathing exercise or um uh just the other day this isn't in in and just the other day this isn't in in and just the other day this isn't in in and of itself bad but I was a part of a of itself bad but I was a part of a of itself bad but I was a part of a particular Retreat where someone had us particular Retreat where someone had us particular Retreat where someone had us do this hand exercise where we were do this hand exercise where we were do this hand exercise where we were breathing using our hand breathe in and breathing using our hand breathe in and breathing using our hand breathe in and out and in and out now that could be out and in and out now that could be out and in and out now that could be helpful um and I do I have breathing helpful um and I do I have breathing helpful um and I do I have breathing practices and I teach breathing practices and I teach breathing practices and I teach breathing practices uh to my clients but on the

practices uh to my clients but on the practices uh to my clients but on the surface level all it does is it surface level all it does is it surface level all it does is it mitigates symptoms I think what we need mitigates symptoms I think what we need mitigates symptoms I think what we need to do is we need to get go beneath the to do is we need to get go beneath the to do is we need to get go beneath the water line we got to go down into the water line we got to go down into the water line we got to go down into the engine you know so to speak of the engine you know so to speak of the engine you know so to speak of the autonomic nervous system and say so autonomic nervous system and say so autonomic nervous system and say so where is my my default response you know where is my my default response you know where is my my default response you know most of us uh live from a bit more of a most of us uh live from a bit more of a most of us uh live from a bit more of a flight response or a fight response or a flight response or a fight response or a flight response or a fight response or a fawn people pleaser response or Des what fawn people pleaser response or Des what fawn people pleaser response or Des what I call Fin response kind of a desperate I call Fin response kind of a desperate I call Fin response kind of a desperate relational dependency response what's my relational dependency response what's my relational dependency response what's my default response um so if I'm in a default response um so if I'm in a default response um so if I'm in a sympathetic State and I'm in fight mode sympathetic State and I'm in fight mode sympathetic State and I'm in fight mode a lot of the time what I want to know a lot of the time what I want to know a lot of the time what I want to know all all of those kinds of self-help all all of those kinds of self-help all all of those kinds of self-help kinds of things you know the breathing kinds of things you know the breathing kinds of things you know the breathing stuff like we'll get to that and some of stuff like we'll get to that and some of stuff like we'll get to that and some of those things may be helpful but what I those things may be helpful but what I those things may be helpful but what I want to know is what's the story behind want to know is what's the story behind want to know is what's the story behind that how did we get there in the first that how did we get there in the first that how did we get there in the first place you know and so in a sense what's place you know and so in a sense what's place you know and so in a sense what's the wound there that has driven you to the wound there that has driven you to the wound there that has driven you to Perpetual sympathetic what I call Perpetual sympathetic what I call Perpetual sympathetic what I call sympathetic storm you know and how long sympathetic storm you know and how long sympathetic storm you know and how long have you lived there and a lot of the have you lived there and a lot of the have you lived there and a lot of the pastors car that I've talked to over the pastors car that I've talked to over the pastors car that I've talked to over the years are like I don't know I didn't years are like I don't know I didn't years are like I don't know I didn't live in sympathetic storm and I don't live in sympathetic storm and I don't live in sympathetic storm and I don't know what it's like to be in my body in know what it's like to be in my body in know what it's like to be in my body in a way that feels grounded like I I know a way that feels grounded like I I know a way that feels grounded like I I know now thankfully because of the work that now thankfully because of the work that now thankfully because of the work that I've done what it feels like to be at I've done what it feels like to be at I've done what it feels like to be at home in my own body and it feels very home in my own body and it feels very home in my own body and it feels very different than the Chuck who is in that different than the Chuck who is in that different than the Chuck who is in that constant like what do I need to do how constant like what do I need to do how constant like what do I need to do how do I need to show up what do I need to do I need to show up what do I need to do I need to show up what do I need to uh take care of today who do I need to uh take care of today who do I need to uh take care of today who do I need to ple you know it feels very different

ple you know it feels very different ple you know it feels very different when you're anchored and grounded is not when you're anchored and grounded is not when you're anchored and grounded is not to say that you don't get stressed out to say that you don't get stressed out to say that you don't get stressed out sometimes and it's not to say that sometimes and it's not to say that sometimes and it's not to say that there's not any more pull toward those there's not any more pull toward those there's not any more pull toward those sympathetic storms it is to say that sympathetic storms it is to say that sympathetic storms it is to say that home base becomes a grounded centered home base becomes a grounded centered home base becomes a grounded centered Cal place and that's what we're looking Cal place and that's what we're looking Cal place and that's what we're looking for more than techniques more than a an for more than techniques more than a an for more than techniques more than a an occasional breathing or yoga exerc all occasional breathing or yoga exerc all occasional breathing or yoga exerc all of those could be resources for the sake of those could be resources for the sake of those could be resources for the sake of grounding you in your spiritual and of grounding you in your spiritual and of grounding you in your spiritual and physiological home so that sounds like physiological home so that sounds like physiological home so that sounds like cognitive behavioral therapy y doeses it cognitive behavioral therapy y doeses it cognitive behavioral therapy y doeses it is that like just or or can you do that is that like just or or can you do that is that like just or or can you do that yourself or how do you get to the yourself or how do you get to the yourself or how do you get to the root yeah I would say it goes beyond root yeah I would say it goes beyond root yeah I would say it goes beyond cognitive behavioral I mean I think that cognitive behavioral I mean I think that cognitive behavioral I mean I think that there's an aspect to it but cognitive there's an aspect to it but cognitive there's an aspect to it but cognitive behavioral is is a bit more geared to behavioral is is a bit more geared to behavioral is is a bit more geared to like what are the lies that I'm telling like what are the lies that I'm telling like what are the lies that I'm telling myself and how do I tell myself the myself and how do I tell myself the myself and how do I tell myself the truth be very disembodied and what I'm truth be very disembodied and what I'm truth be very disembodied and what I'm talking about is a very embodied talking about is a very embodied talking about is a very embodied practice that for me involved uh practice that for me involved uh practice that for me involved uh discovering the depths of contemplative discovering the depths of contemplative discovering the depths of contemplative prayer um so you know for my practice prayer um so you know for my practice prayer um so you know for my practice when I shifted from geographically from when I shifted from geographically from when I shifted from geographically from San Francisco to Michigan uh was a San Francisco to Michigan uh was a San Francisco to Michigan uh was a morning afternoon an evening practice so morning afternoon an evening practice so morning afternoon an evening practice so I would take an I would tell people I I would take an I would tell people I I would take an I would tell people I take an afternoon I take an hour every take an afternoon I take an hour every take an afternoon I take an hour every afternoon which feels to me like if you afternoon which feels to me like if you afternoon which feels to me like if you would have told 32y old Chuck that he would have told 32y old Chuck that he would have told 32y old Chuck that he was going to take an hour every was going to take an hour every was going to take an hour every afternoon at 42 or 45 or 50 he would afternoon at 42 or 45 or 50 he would afternoon at 42 or 45 or 50 he would said there's no way you got work to do said there's no way you got work to do said there's no way you got work to do Chuck but you know I'd take this hour

Chuck but you know I'd take this hour Chuck but you know I'd take this hour where I'd go into the imaginative prayer where I'd go into the imaginative prayer where I'd go into the imaginative prayer space with Jesus and I breathe calm my space with Jesus and I breathe calm my space with Jesus and I breathe calm my body put my hand on my chest uh body put my hand on my chest uh body put my hand on my chest uh sometimes it helps me may help others sometimes it helps me may help others sometimes it helps me may help others I'll just I'll just I'll just say there's something about that that say there's something about that that say there's something about that that may sound weird to some of your may sound weird to some of your may sound weird to some of your listeners like who is this guy who rubs listeners like who is this guy who rubs listeners like who is this guy who rubs his Jack chest and but but we there were his Jack chest and but but we there were his Jack chest and but but we there were four basic needs uh that we that we had four basic needs uh that we that we had four basic needs uh that we that we had growing up according to Daniel seagull growing up according to Daniel seagull growing up according to Daniel seagull to be safe seen soothed and secure to be safe seen soothed and secure to be safe seen soothed and secure this is soothing this is more soothing this is soothing this is more soothing this is soothing this is more soothing than alcohol and I can I can imagine you than alcohol and I can I can imagine you than alcohol and I can I can imagine you know God who dwells within me and dwells know God who dwells within me and dwells know God who dwells within me and dwells within you Whispering sh it's okay Chuck within you Whispering sh it's okay Chuck within you Whispering sh it's okay Chuck I know you got a lot to do I know you're I know you got a lot to do I know you're I know you got a lot to do I know you're you're gonna sit with Carrie today and you're gonna sit with Carrie today and you're gonna sit with Carrie today and that feels a little bit anxiety that feels a little bit anxiety that feels a little bit anxiety producing I got you I'm here it's okay producing I got you I'm here it's okay producing I got you I'm here it's okay that kind of soothing that we needed that kind of soothing that we needed that kind of soothing that we needed that some of us didn't get um but that that some of us didn't get um but that that some of us didn't get um but that kind of soothing that I think God long kind of soothing that I think God long kind of soothing that I think God long to offer us um in Jesus Through the to offer us um in Jesus Through the to offer us um in Jesus Through the spirit and so we we need to be safe we spirit and so we we need to be safe we spirit and so we we need to be safe we need to be seen we need to be soothed need to be seen we need to be soothed need to be seen we need to be soothed and we need to feel secure and so I'm and we need to feel secure and so I'm and we need to feel secure and so I'm asking myself how do I find my way back asking myself how do I find my way back asking myself how do I find my way back to those core needs that I think God to those core needs that I think God to those core needs that I think God longed to offer us and did offer Us in longed to offer us and did offer Us in longed to offer us and did offer Us in Eden and as image bearers but that we Eden and as image bearers but that we Eden and as image bearers but that we continue to run from in and through the continue to run from in and through the continue to run from in and through the legacy of Genesis chapter 3 we're legacy of Genesis chapter 3 we're legacy of Genesis chapter 3 we're continuing to hide we're continuing to continuing to hide we're continuing to continuing to hide we're continuing to self- protect we're continuing to cope

self- protect we're continuing to cope self- protect we're continuing to cope you said something else that honestly you said something else that honestly you said something else that honestly terrified me I remember when I got into terrified me I remember when I got into terrified me I remember when I got into really deep therapy for the first time really deep therapy for the first time really deep therapy for the first time when I was in my late 30s early when I was in my late 30s early when I was in my late 30s early 40s there is a hamster wheel there is a 40s there is a hamster wheel there is a 40s there is a hamster wheel there is a a that thing that you're addicted to I'm a that thing that you're addicted to I'm a that thing that you're addicted to I'm thinking of the guy who's on social thinking of the guy who's on social thinking of the guy who's on social media and had to every 15 minutes it's media and had to every 15 minutes it's media and had to every 15 minutes it's like oh now I'm in fight mode or like oh now I'm in fight mode or like oh now I'm in fight mode or whatever or the person who is a whatever or the person who is a whatever or the person who is a compulsive o over worker or you know compulsive o over worker or you know compulsive o over worker or you know whatever that happens to be often those whatever that happens to be often those whatever that happens to be often those are the things that you've or you know are the things that you've or you know are the things that you've or you know the Holy Roller like I'm you know super the Holy Roller like I'm you know super the Holy Roller like I'm you know super uh you know self-righteous or whatever uh you know self-righteous or whatever uh you know self-righteous or whatever it happens to be or righteous or certain it happens to be or righteous or certain it happens to be or righteous or certain or whatever that happens to be those are or whatever that happens to be those are or whatever that happens to be those are often the things that bring us success often the things that bring us success often the things that bring us success in leadership yeah and there's a fear in leadership yeah and there's a fear in leadership yeah and there's a fear I've noticed in I've noticed in I've noticed in myself uh and a fear I picked up in myself uh and a fear I picked up in myself uh and a fear I picked up in other leaders as we've had this other leaders as we've had this other leaders as we've had this conversation that they're like well if I conversation that they're like well if I conversation that they're like well if I really get well it's all going to come really get well it's all going to come really get well it's all going to come crumbling down and I'm going to be a crumbling down and I'm going to be a crumbling down and I'm going to be a failure what do you say about that fear failure what do you say about that fear failure what do you say about that fear well again I want I want to sit with the well again I want I want to sit with the well again I want I want to sit with the the individual person and I want to the individual person and I want to the individual person and I want to understand it from their perspective understand it from their perspective understand it from their perspective from their family story like that fear a from their family story like that fear a from their family story like that fear a failure looks different for Carrie than failure looks different for Carrie than failure looks different for Carrie than it than it does for Chuck you know and it than it does for Chuck you know and it than it does for Chuck you know and there's there's always we can we can we there's there's always we can we can we there's there's always we can we can we can go through some of my stuff that's can go through some of my stuff that's can go through some of my stuff that's helpful to make it more specific yeah so helpful to make it more specific yeah so helpful to make it more specific yeah so get specific about what's the fear like get specific about what's the fear like get specific about what's the fear like and and trace it back if you could to and and trace it back if you could to and and trace it back if you could to maybe um an early an early sense of fear maybe um an early an early sense of fear maybe um an early an early sense of fear you know or or a wound around uh not you know or or a wound around uh not you know or or a wound around uh not succeeding yeah so a couple of things I

succeeding yeah so a couple of things I succeeding yeah so a couple of things I would say early in my leadership I would would say early in my leadership I would would say early in my leadership I would power up I would like you know command power up I would like you know command power up I would like you know command and control that style that was very and control that style that was very and control that style that was very natural for me from the time I was a natural for me from the time I was a natural for me from the time I was a little kid I can't remember not being little kid I can't remember not being little kid I can't remember not being seen as a leader like people have always seen as a leader like people have always seen as a leader like people have always if there was a vacuum I would fill it if there was a vacuum I would fill it if there was a vacuum I would fill it and it wasn't intentional it just and it wasn't intentional it just and it wasn't intentional it just happened it's very natural for me very happened it's very natural for me very happened it's very natural for me very natural for me to be a selfstarter etc natural for me to be a selfstarter etc natural for me to be a selfstarter etc and that probably goes back to uh I'm and that probably goes back to uh I'm and that probably goes back to uh I'm thinking of one incident I don't really thinking of one incident I don't really thinking of one incident I don't really want to share it on the podcast that want to share it on the podcast that want to share it on the podcast that happened to me when I was much much happened to me when I was much much happened to me when I was much much younger um that was pretty traumatic and younger um that was pretty traumatic and younger um that was pretty traumatic and it was a loss of control so I would look it was a loss of control so I would look it was a loss of control so I would look at that and go okay that's where I've at that and go okay that's where I've at that and go okay that's where I've traced a lot of my stuff back to and you traced a lot of my stuff back to and you traced a lot of my stuff back to and you know on the other side now what was I know on the other side now what was I know on the other side now what was I afraid of I was afraid that I wouldn't afraid of I was afraid that I wouldn't afraid of I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to power up I was afraid that be able to power up I was afraid that be able to power up I was afraid that you know I would lose great people I you know I would lose great people I you know I would lose great people I wouldn't be able to motivate people wouldn't be able to motivate people wouldn't be able to motivate people people um that I would lose some of the people um that I would lose some of the people um that I would lose some of the power in my preaching or my teaching or power in my preaching or my teaching or power in my preaching or my teaching or my message yeah and what I've realized my message yeah and what I've realized my message yeah and what I've realized on the other side is I've become more on the other side is I've become more on the other side is I've become more open more transparent more vulnerable open more transparent more vulnerable open more transparent more vulnerable hopefully a more empowering boss a less hopefully a more empowering boss a less hopefully a more empowering boss a less controlling boss is you actually get the controlling boss is you actually get the controlling boss is you actually get the opposite you get self-motivated people opposite you get self-motivated people opposite you get self-motivated people you get people who are not afraid to you get people who are not afraid to you get people who are not afraid to speak their mind in a meeting you get um speak their mind in a meeting you get um speak their mind in a meeting you get um content that might travel further and content that might travel further and content that might travel further and you know because people people admire you know because people people admire you know because people people admire your strengths but they resonate with your strengths but they resonate with your strengths but they resonate with your weakness is but none of that was your weakness is but none of that was your weakness is but none of that was clear to me 20 years ago and I was so

clear to me 20 years ago and I was so clear to me 20 years ago and I was so afraid because we had such a fast afraid because we had such a fast afraid because we had such a fast growing Church in our context in our growing Church in our context in our growing Church in our context in our denomination at the time that if I denomination at the time that if I denomination at the time that if I really dismantled that would all fall really dismantled that would all fall really dismantled that would all fall apart yeah but what I didn't realize is apart yeah but what I didn't realize is apart yeah but what I didn't realize is that the gift that God had on the other that the gift that God had on the other that the gift that God had on the other side was actually so much bigger but I side was actually so much bigger but I side was actually so much bigger but I was just afraid so I don't know that was just afraid so I don't know that was just afraid so I don't know that that helps at all but that that has been that helps at all but that that has been that helps at all but that that has been part of my story for sure yeah that's so part of my story for sure yeah that's so part of my story for sure yeah that's so helpful and I mean I think that early helpful and I mean I think that early helpful and I mean I think that early story you don't have to give the details story you don't have to give the details story you don't have to give the details but I mean I think when we Trace back to but I mean I think when we Trace back to but I mean I think when we Trace back to those early stories that that fear being those early stories that that fear being those early stories that that fear being out of control um that's there's often a out of control um that's there's often a out of control um that's there's often a desperation that comes with that like desperation that comes with that like desperation that comes with that like it's it can feel kind of chaotic um I I it's it can feel kind of chaotic um I I it's it can feel kind of chaotic um I I know for me for some of my early stories know for me for some of my early stories know for me for some of my early stories there's there's that sense of um uh there's there's that sense of um uh there's there's that sense of um uh there were group of people in one there were group of people in one there were group of people in one particular story and I felt a lot of particular story and I felt a lot of particular story and I felt a lot of Shame around a group of people and and Shame around a group of people and and Shame around a group of people and and so I've had this lingering sense over so I've had this lingering sense over so I've had this lingering sense over the years uh that there would be a group the years uh that there would be a group the years uh that there would be a group of people standing around me mocking me of people standing around me mocking me of people standing around me mocking me that that that I was seven I was I was seven years old I was seven I was I was seven years old I was seven I was I was seven years old and I'm 54 years old and I'm I still in and I'm 54 years old and I'm I still in and I'm 54 years old and I'm I still in my body have a a visceral memory of my body have a a visceral memory of my body have a a visceral memory of having a group of people stand around me having a group of people stand around me having a group of people stand around me and mock me right and so um that's not and mock me right and so um that's not and mock me right and so um that's not rational you might say you know the rational you might say you know the rational you might say you know the cognitive behavior would say well that's cognitive behavior would say well that's cognitive behavior would say well that's not rational think about something not rational think about something not rational think about something rational what's the of course that's not rational what's the of course that's not rational what's the of course that's not gonna happen Chuck that doesn't answer gonna happen Chuck that doesn't answer gonna happen Chuck that doesn't answer it that doesn't answer it so so it's in it that doesn't answer it so so it's in it that doesn't answer it so so it's in your body so in those spaces I think your body so in those spaces I think your body so in those spaces I think it's really important in in those u in it's really important in in those u in it's really important in in those u in those moments I think what I've had to those moments I think what I've had to those moments I think what I've had to do over the years is is um move toward

do over the years is is um move toward do over the years is is um move toward those feelings even in my body um with a those feelings even in my body um with a those feelings even in my body um with a very palpable sense of God's spirit and very palpable sense of God's spirit and very palpable sense of God's spirit and God's presence as St Augustine said more God's presence as St Augustine said more God's presence as St Augustine said more near to me than I am to myself and with near to me than I am to myself and with near to me than I am to myself and with God's really kind uh Whisper of in God's really kind uh Whisper of in God's really kind uh Whisper of in Genesis 3 I talked about this in the Genesis 3 I talked about this in the Genesis 3 I talked about this in the book of Where Are You Chuck who told you book of Where Are You Chuck who told you book of Where Are You Chuck who told you that lie about yourself what do you that lie about yourself what do you that lie about yourself what do you really want you know there are these really want you know there are these really want you know there are these three beautiful questions that I I walk three beautiful questions that I I walk three beautiful questions that I I walk through in the three major sections of through in the three major sections of through in the three major sections of the book that get into the work of of the book that get into the work of of the book that get into the work of of God showing up with kindness and God showing up with kindness and God showing up with kindness and curiosity to us in our most tender curiosity to us in our most tender curiosity to us in our most tender moments now that's that's really scary moments now that's that's really scary moments now that's that's really scary and vulnerable and I I think what's and vulnerable and I I think what's and vulnerable and I I think what's problematic sometimes is in in problematic sometimes is in in problematic sometimes is in in leadership um uh settings oftentimes leadership um uh settings oftentimes leadership um uh settings oftentimes people will want this to happen fast and people will want this to happen fast and people will want this to happen fast and very publicly and and that's very very publicly and and that's very very publicly and and that's very exposing I mean it's exposing to to do exposing I mean it's exposing to to do exposing I mean it's exposing to to do it privately you know in my office with it privately you know in my office with it privately you know in my office with the door closed closed and the shades the door closed closed and the shades the door closed closed and the shades drawn uh so it it's it's really exposing drawn uh so it it's it's really exposing drawn uh so it it's it's really exposing to do it publicly but I think with to do it publicly but I think with to do it publicly but I think with leaders nowadays particularly around leaders nowadays particularly around leaders nowadays particularly around these conversations what I'm a little these conversations what I'm a little these conversations what I'm a little bit afraid of is that we're pushing a bit afraid of is that we're pushing a bit afraid of is that we're pushing a little too fast like you need to little too fast like you need to little too fast like you need to surrender you need to be more vulnerable surrender you need to be more vulnerable surrender you need to be more vulnerable you need and a lot of these leaders are you need and a lot of these leaders are you need and a lot of these leaders are like H you don't know what you're asking like H you don't know what you're asking like H you don't know what you're asking for like I I know what it's like to let for like I I know what it's like to let for like I I know what it's like to let my guard down and it doesn't feel very my guard down and it doesn't feel very my guard down and it doesn't feel very good and so I think if we would go a good and so I think if we would go a good and so I think if we would go a little slower have a bit more compassion little slower have a bit more compassion little slower have a bit more compassion recognize that we're all in process we'd recognize that we're all in process we'd recognize that we're all in process we'd we'd be a bit

we'd be a bit we'd be a bit better I do want to talk about that man better I do want to talk about that man better I do want to talk about that man times going fast uh on this conversation times going fast uh on this conversation times going fast uh on this conversation but I have had so many DMS from leaders but I have had so many DMS from leaders but I have had so many DMS from leaders you know if I tell my story I had an you know if I tell my story I had an you know if I tell my story I had an incredibly and have an incredibly incredibly and have an incredibly incredibly and have an incredibly sympathetic group of leaders around me sympathetic group of leaders around me sympathetic group of leaders around me Elders who when I was burnt out and like Elders who when I was burnt out and like Elders who when I was burnt out and like I was fried they embraced me other I was fried they embraced me other I was fried they embraced me other people get fired um you know as I've people get fired um you know as I've people get fired um you know as I've I've learned about my own self I'm I've learned about my own self I'm I've learned about my own self I'm pretty transparent with my inner circle pretty transparent with my inner circle pretty transparent with my inner circle it's been very accepting very yeah um it's been very accepting very yeah um it's been very accepting very yeah um affirming and you know I'm a better affirming and you know I'm a better affirming and you know I'm a better leader for it and a better human better leader for it and a better human better leader for it and a better human better husband better father better friend all husband better father better friend all husband better father better friend all of those things so I've been very of those things so I've been very of those things so I've been very fortunate but you you're exactly right fortunate but you you're exactly right fortunate but you you're exactly right that the the current climate in in the that the the current climate in in the that the the current climate in in the church is not always that friendly and church is not always that friendly and church is not always that friendly and what would you say to leaders who are what would you say to leaders who are what would you say to leaders who are like if I go to my board with any of like if I go to my board with any of like if I go to my board with any of this or to my team I'm probably going to this or to my team I'm probably going to this or to my team I'm probably going to get fired if if I share any of this get fired if if I share any of this get fired if if I share any of this publicly I'm probably going to get publicly I'm probably going to get publicly I'm probably going to get cancelled or you know just destroyed on cancelled or you know just destroyed on cancelled or you know just destroyed on social media what would what would you social media what would what would you social media what would what would you say to them go cautiously and let's keep say to them go cautiously and let's keep say to them go cautiously and let's keep talking you know I mean I I I've seen talking you know I mean I I I've seen talking you know I mean I I I've seen I'm sure you've seen um every possible I'm sure you've seen um every possible I'm sure you've seen um every possible um uh contingency every possible um uh contingency every possible um uh contingency every possible variable when it comes to these things variable when it comes to these things variable when it comes to these things so I've seen leaders uh go humbly to a so I've seen leaders uh go humbly to a so I've seen leaders uh go humbly to a board and I've seen that board reject board and I've seen that board reject board and I've seen that board reject that leader right I I think and they're

that leader right I I think and they're that leader right I I think and they're not even confessing an affair or theft not even confessing an affair or theft not even confessing an affair or theft or anything they're just saying I don't or anything they're just saying I don't or anything they're just saying I don't think I'm okay no no it's it's we you think I'm okay no no it's it's we you think I'm okay no no it's it's we you know there's uh well we don't have to know there's uh well we don't have to know there's uh well we don't have to get into particular sort of get into particular sort of get into particular sort of psychological phenomenon behind it but psychological phenomenon behind it but psychological phenomenon behind it but there are there are followers of leaders there are there are followers of leaders there are there are followers of leaders who need us to be superhuman and when who need us to be superhuman and when who need us to be superhuman and when we're not uh it's it's uh you know we're we're not uh it's it's uh you know we're we're not uh it's it's uh you know we're we're Expendable I guess at that point we're Expendable I guess at that point we're Expendable I guess at that point right and so um to the opposite extreme right and so um to the opposite extreme right and so um to the opposite extreme of of perhaps what you you've of of perhaps what you you've of of perhaps what you you've experienced of being embraced and so I experienced of being embraced and so I experienced of being embraced and so I don't I don't encourage leaders to go don't I don't encourage leaders to go don't I don't encourage leaders to go into the room with like here it is um I into the room with like here it is um I into the room with like here it is um I want them here's everything here's want them here's everything here's want them here's everything here's everything yeah I want them to I want everything yeah I want them to I want everything yeah I want them to I want them to take baby steps so to speak them to take baby steps so to speak them to take baby steps so to speak right like to do it very cautiously to right like to do it very cautiously to right like to do it very cautiously to maybe uh pick a particular elder or maybe uh pick a particular elder or maybe uh pick a particular elder or leader that they they trust sit down leader that they they trust sit down leader that they they trust sit down have a conversation over coffee let them have a conversation over coffee let them have a conversation over coffee let them in just a little bit you know um in the in just a little bit you know um in the in just a little bit you know um in the counseling work uh we call this counseling work uh we call this counseling work uh we call this titration which is to say say a slow titration which is to say say a slow titration which is to say say a slow baby step kind of process toward um baby step kind of process toward um baby step kind of process toward um toward Health toward Revelation toward toward Health toward Revelation toward toward Health toward Revelation toward greater vulnerability we can't do greater vulnerability we can't do greater vulnerability we can't do everything at once we want everything everything at once we want everything everything at once we want everything microwavable nowadays um but I think as microwavable nowadays um but I think as microwavable nowadays um but I think as As Leaders uh take small steps to be As Leaders uh take small steps to be As Leaders uh take small steps to be vulnerable um and and to test the waters vulnerable um and and to test the waters vulnerable um and and to test the waters they can gradually uh risk a bit more they can gradually uh risk a bit more they can gradually uh risk a bit more um but It's Tricky and every situation um but It's Tricky and every situation um but It's Tricky and every situation is different well you're from Michigan is different well you're from Michigan is different well you're from Michigan I'm from Toronto it's like you got to I'm from Toronto it's like you got to I'm from Toronto it's like you got to test the ice before you step on it with test the ice before you step on it with test the ice before you step on it with all your weight it's a good metaphor

all your weight it's a good metaphor all your weight it's a good metaphor yeah uh this has been so helpful uh any yeah uh this has been so helpful uh any yeah uh this has been so helpful uh any further thoughts advice for leaders who further thoughts advice for leaders who further thoughts advice for leaders who who realize yeah I want to get well uh who realize yeah I want to get well uh who realize yeah I want to get well uh I'm probably living with some trauma I'm probably living with some trauma I'm probably living with some trauma inside that needs to heal uh anything inside that needs to heal uh anything inside that needs to heal uh anything that we haven't covered that you think that we haven't covered that you think that we haven't covered that you think needs to be mentioned I I don't know there there's a lot that I I don't know there there's a lot that we haven't covered that probably needs we haven't covered that probably needs we haven't covered that probably needs to be mentioned and that the to be mentioned and that the to be mentioned and that the conversation could go on and on the book conversation could go on and on the book conversation could go on and on the book yeah yeah but I I just say stay curious yeah yeah but I I just say stay curious yeah yeah but I I just say stay curious you know I mean I I know I know this you know I mean I I know I know this you know I mean I I know I know this this time that we're living in right now this time that we're living in right now this time that we're living in right now particularly as we're having this particularly as we're having this particularly as we're having this conversation and over these last few conversation and over these last few conversation and over these last few years in the midst of this Reckoning is years in the midst of this Reckoning is years in the midst of this Reckoning is um it's scary I mean I talk to a lot of um it's scary I mean I talk to a lot of um it's scary I mean I talk to a lot of leaders who are genuinely scared uh as leaders who are genuinely scared uh as leaders who are genuinely scared uh as they look at what's going on they look at what's going on they look at what's going on and as I listen to leaders and I you and as I listen to leaders and I you and as I listen to leaders and I you talked to a lot of leaders I see them talked to a lot of leaders I see them talked to a lot of leaders I see them carrying things that we weren't carrying carrying things that we weren't carrying carrying things that we weren't carrying 20 25 years ago um I'm involved in a 20 25 years ago um I'm involved in a 20 25 years ago um I'm involved in a lily Grant right now where we're where lily Grant right now where we're where lily Grant right now where we're where we're researching uh secondary trauma we're researching uh secondary trauma we're researching uh secondary trauma for pastors you know all these things for pastors you know all these things for pastors you know all these things amidst of Co and George Floyd how people amidst of Co and George Floyd how people amidst of Co and George Floyd how people are carrying uh different sort of are carrying uh different sort of are carrying uh different sort of political ideologies in their political ideologies in their political ideologies in their congregations pastors are caring a lot congregations pastors are caring a lot congregations pastors are caring a lot leaders are carrying a lot nowadays and leaders are carrying a lot nowadays and leaders are carrying a lot nowadays and the the propensity not just the the propensity not just the the propensity not just uh for their own trauma to Bubble Up but uh for their own trauma to Bubble Up but uh for their own trauma to Bubble Up but the secondary trauma of having having to the secondary trauma of having having to the secondary trauma of having having to care about everyone else and by the way care about everyone else and by the way care about everyone else and by the way having to be an expert on all these having to be an expert on all these having to be an expert on all these different things yes and have a

different things yes and have a different things yes and have a position position is is really really position position is is really really position position is is really really overwhelming and so I have a lot of overwhelming and so I have a lot of overwhelming and so I have a lot of empathy for leaders nowadays because I empathy for leaders nowadays because I empathy for leaders nowadays because I think in in in part and I'd be curious think in in in part and I'd be curious think in in in part and I'd be curious to hear I know we're out of time if if to hear I know we're out of time if if to hear I know we're out of time if if you see it this way too um that uh that you see it this way too um that uh that you see it this way too um that uh that they're they just start caring more and they're they just start caring more and they're they just start caring more and so go gently and get care you know so go gently and get care you know so go gently and get care you know because it is weighty yeah and you you because it is weighty yeah and you you because it is weighty yeah and you you did mention something which we've talked did mention something which we've talked did mention something which we've talked about before on this podcast but just to about before on this podcast but just to about before on this podcast but just to underscore it isolation I was looking at underscore it isolation I was looking at underscore it isolation I was looking at some stats this morning for this new some stats this morning for this new some stats this morning for this new project I'm working on and I mean you project I'm working on and I mean you project I'm working on and I mean you look at the number of senior pastors who look at the number of senior pastors who look at the number of senior pastors who said that they had close personal said that they had close personal said that they had close personal friends in 2015 versus who have it in friends in 2015 versus who have it in friends in 2015 versus who have it in 2023 year old data it fell off a cliff 2023 year old data it fell off a cliff 2023 year old data it fell off a cliff it's like I think it's down to single it's like I think it's down to single it's like I think it's down to single digit percentage points where it's like digit percentage points where it's like digit percentage points where it's like I've really got someone I can open up to I've really got someone I can open up to I've really got someone I can open up to I also have a great marriage over 34 I also have a great marriage over 34 I also have a great marriage over 34 years I also believe your spouse is not years I also believe your spouse is not years I also believe your spouse is not designed by God to Bear the full weight designed by God to Bear the full weight designed by God to Bear the full weight of every single issue you're carrying of every single issue you're carrying of every single issue you're carrying you have to bring something to her not you have to bring something to her not you have to bring something to her not just extract something from her and so I just extract something from her and so I just extract something from her and so I mean Tony and I talk about everything mean Tony and I talk about everything mean Tony and I talk about everything but I also realize I need friends I need but I also realize I need friends I need but I also realize I need friends I need other people so I would I would other people so I would I would other people so I would I would underscore that to to answer your underscore that to to answer your underscore that to to answer your question is the importance of community question is the importance of community question is the importance of community and then you know I've heard a a and then you know I've heard a a and then you know I've heard a a well-known mega church pastor say hey I well-known mega church pastor say hey I well-known mega church pastor say hey I pay my therapist to be my friend there's pay my therapist to be my friend there's pay my therapist to be my friend there's nothing wrong with that that you know nothing wrong with that that you know nothing wrong with that that you know start with some therapy and unburden

start with some therapy and unburden start with some therapy and unburden yourself there and then test the ice and yourself there and then test the ice and yourself there and then test the ice and see where you can go develop some close see where you can go develop some close see where you can go develop some close friendships I've been working on that friendships I've been working on that friendships I've been working on that over the last three years as the advice over the last three years as the advice over the last three years as the advice of my coach counselor is just you know of my coach counselor is just you know of my coach counselor is just you know get more intimate with people who get more intimate with people who get more intimate with people who actually know you particularly you know actually know you particularly you know actually know you particularly you know I think that's another thing they us to I think that's another thing they us to I think that's another thing they us to call it false intimacy I don't know what call it false intimacy I don't know what call it false intimacy I don't know what you call it but you have all these you call it but you have all these you call it but you have all these people who quote know you you know they people who quote know you you know they people who quote know you you know they follow you on social they see you on a follow you on social they see you on a follow you on social they see you on a platform every weekend you don't really platform every weekend you don't really platform every weekend you don't really know them so you have a feeling of being know them so you have a feeling of being know them so you have a feeling of being known but maybe nobody actually knows known but maybe nobody actually knows known but maybe nobody actually knows you right there's that too which is just you right there's that too which is just you right there's that too which is just I call it vulnerability vulnerability I call it vulnerability vulnerability I call it vulnerability vulnerability right yeah yeah yeah it's true and and right yeah yeah yeah it's true and and right yeah yeah yeah it's true and and you're not really known and so you know you're not really known and so you know you're not really known and so you know who that's the question who knows you who that's the question who knows you who that's the question who knows you you know and uh by and large the pastors you know and uh by and large the pastors you know and uh by and large the pastors that I've worked with over the years who that I've worked with over the years who that I've worked with over the years who said well a lot of friends really don't said well a lot of friends really don't said well a lot of friends really don't uh don't feel known by any of them and uh don't feel known by any of them and uh don't feel known by any of them and that's scary so yeah that's really good that's scary so yeah that's really good that's scary so yeah that's really good wisdom at the end here caring well Chuck wisdom at the end here caring well Chuck wisdom at the end here caring well Chuck I thank you so much thanks for being so I thank you so much thanks for being so I thank you so much thanks for being so personally open and vulnerable as well I personally open and vulnerable as well I personally open and vulnerable as well I think our stories speak into other think our stories speak into other think our stories speak into other people's stories and it's super helpful people's stories and it's super helpful people's stories and it's super helpful well your new book is called healing well your new book is called healing well your new book is called healing what's within it's available everywhere what's within it's available everywhere what's within it's available everywhere if people want to connect with you I if people want to connect with you I if people want to connect with you I know you do social three times a day tip know you do social three times a day tip know you do social three times a day tip in tip out what's up in tip out what's up in tip out what's up what's the what's the best place to find what's the what's the best place to find what's the what's the best place to find you online if they want to track with you online if they want to track with you online if they want to track with you I've got a website uh Chuck the.net you I've got a website uh Chuck the.net you I've got a website uh Chuck the.net I'm at uh at Chuck deg Gro on um you I'm at uh at Chuck deg Gro on um you I'm at uh at Chuck deg Gro on um you know like the major social media I'm not know like the major social media I'm not know like the major social media I'm not doing Tik Tok I just can't do that but

doing Tik Tok I just can't do that but doing Tik Tok I just can't do that but uh you know Instagram x Facebook yeah I uh you know Instagram x Facebook yeah I uh you know Instagram x Facebook yeah I have an account but I'm not that demure have an account but I'm not that demure have an account but I'm not that demure and by the way by the time this airs and by the way by the time this airs and by the way by the time this airs that Trend will be over hence yeah yeah that Trend will be over hence yeah yeah that Trend will be over hence yeah yeah right right right that's why I'm trying right right right that's why I'm trying right right right that's why I'm trying not to Trend Jack right now oh my gosh not to Trend Jack right now oh my gosh not to Trend Jack right now oh my gosh listen this is a crazy word world it's a listen this is a crazy word world it's a listen this is a crazy word world it's a crazy leadership environment we have crazy leadership environment we have crazy leadership environment we have Business Leaders and church leaders who Business Leaders and church leaders who Business Leaders and church leaders who thank you so much for what you shared thank you so much for what you shared thank you so much for what you shared today I'm really grateful for you Chuck today I'm really grateful for you Chuck today I'm really grateful for you Chuck thanks for the work you're doing so thanks for the work you're doing so thanks for the work you're doing so grateful for your podcast and for your grateful for your podcast and for your grateful for your podcast and for your ministry and your wisdom too Carrie