Does Simple Church Still Work?

So guess what? You're looking at a guy So guess what? You're looking at a guy who read it and implemented things who read it and implemented things who read it and implemented things almost immediately. First of all, I want almost immediately. First of all, I want almost immediately. First of all, I want to thank you for the mass exit out of to thank you for the mass exit out of to thank you for the mass exit out of our church when I got a lot of ministry our church when I got a lot of ministry our church when I got a lot of ministry responsibility. responsibility. responsibility. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. So today I ask an leadership podcast. So today I ask an leadership podcast. So today I ask an important question with Eric Guyger who important question with Eric Guyger who important question with Eric Guyger who co-authored Simple Church. Does simple co-authored Simple Church. Does simple co-authored Simple Church. Does simple church still work? And we also talk church still work? And we also talk church still work? And we also talk about succession. He took over one of about succession. He took over one of about succession. He took over one of the largest churches in America. Why did the largest churches in America. Why did the largest churches in America. Why did that transition work out? Well, do you that transition work out? Well, do you that transition work out? Well, do you know that something like 160,000 know that something like 160,000 know that something like 160,000 churches are going to transition to new churches are going to transition to new churches are going to transition to new leadership in the next decade? You got leadership in the next decade? You got leadership in the next decade? You got to figure this stuff out. So, wherever to figure this stuff out. So, wherever to figure this stuff out. So, wherever you're watching, be sure to subscribe, you're watching, be sure to subscribe, you're watching, be sure to subscribe, follow, leave a comment to join the follow, leave a comment to join the follow, leave a comment to join the discussion. And we have some amazing discussion. And we have some amazing discussion. And we have some amazing leaders in the art of leadership leaders in the art of leadership leaders in the art of leadership academy. If you haven't checked that out academy. If you haven't checked that out academy. If you haven't checked that out yet, please do. We'll jump right into yet, please do. We'll jump right into yet, please do. We'll jump right into the conversation after a word from our the conversation after a word from our the conversation after a word from our carefully selected partners. This carefully selected partners. This carefully selected partners. This episode is brought to you by the Church episode is brought to you by the Church episode is brought to you by the Church Network. You know, vision is vital and Network. You know, vision is vital and Network. You know, vision is vital and so is the day-to-day work that keeps so is the day-to-day work that keeps so is the day-to-day work that keeps your church running. The Church Network your church running. The Church Network your church running. The Church Network helps you run your church with helps you run your church with helps you run your church with excellence behind the scenes. TCN is the excellence behind the scenes. TCN is the excellence behind the scenes. TCN is the go-to membership for church go-to membership for church go-to membership for church administrators, executive pastors, and administrators, executive pastors, and administrators, executive pastors, and operations leaders who want practical operations leaders who want practical operations leaders who want practical tools, pure support, and real world tools, pure support, and real world tools, pure support, and real world solutions. From HR and finance to solutions. From HR and finance to solutions. From HR and finance to facilities and tech, TCN offers facilities and tech, TCN offers facilities and tech, TCN offers resources you won't find anywhere else.

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to 46816. to 46816. Well, Eric, I've been hoping to do this Well, Eric, I've been hoping to do this Well, Eric, I've been hoping to do this for a long time. Really glad to have you for a long time. Really glad to have you for a long time. Really glad to have you on the podcast. on the podcast. on the podcast. >> Man, it's an honor to be here, Carrie. >> Man, it's an honor to be here, Carrie. >> Man, it's an honor to be here, Carrie. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> Well, I uh want to think about the time >> Well, I uh want to think about the time >> Well, I uh want to think about the time before you became a lead pastor, before before you became a lead pastor, before before you became a lead pastor, before you became a lead pastor here. You'd you became a lead pastor here. You'd you became a lead pastor here. You'd been a lead pastor before, but you were been a lead pastor before, but you were been a lead pastor before, but you were in Nashville. You had an amazing view of in Nashville. You had an amazing view of in Nashville. You had an amazing view of the broader church. the broader church. the broader church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What were you seeing at the time from >> What were you seeing at the time from >> What were you seeing at the time from that unique seat at Lifeway when you that unique seat at Lifeway when you that unique seat at Lifeway when you were there with Tom Rener? were there with Tom Rener? were there with Tom Rener? >> Yeah. the um the some of the things that >> Yeah. the um the some of the things that >> Yeah. the um the some of the things that I there were so many beautiful things I there were so many beautiful things I there were so many beautiful things that were happening in in the church and that were happening in in the church and that were happening in in the church and still is happening in the church. The still is happening in the church. The still is happening in the church. The thing that I was burdened about the most thing that I was burdened about the most thing that I was burdened about the most at that time was there were so many at that time was there were so many at that time was there were so many research projects we would do projects research projects we would do projects research projects we would do projects we would do we would do we would do >> that would show uh a lack of intention >> that would show uh a lack of intention >> that would show uh a lack of intention or a wise plan for disciplehip. It it or a wise plan for disciplehip. It it or a wise plan for disciplehip. It it just felt like a lot of pastors and just felt like a lot of pastors and just felt like a lot of pastors and church leaders had a burden for the church leaders had a burden for the church leaders had a burden for the great commission. We need to make great commission. We need to make great commission. We need to make disciples. But there was no wise plan disciples. But there was no wise plan disciples. But there was no wise plan for that to happen. So just like a for that to happen. So just like a for that to happen. So just like a couple of uh a couple of examples that couple of uh a couple of examples that couple of uh a couple of examples that >> just off the top of my head, we when I >> just off the top of my head, we when I >> just off the top of my head, we when I was there, we we started was there, we we started was there, we we started >> like a customized curriculum group that >> like a customized curriculum group that >> like a customized curriculum group that would because a lot of pastors were would because a lot of pastors were would because a lot of pastors were trying to have the small groups in their trying to have the small groups in their trying to have the small groups in their church line up to their sermons, you church line up to their sermons, you church line up to their sermons, you know, like sermon content.

know, like sermon content. know, like sermon content. >> Yeah. Pretty common. >> Yeah. Pretty common. >> Yeah. Pretty common. >> Yeah. And so we we started a group that >> Yeah. And so we we started a group that >> Yeah. And so we we started a group that would serve that that that church and would serve that that that church and would serve that that that church and you know, hey, you give us your teaching you know, hey, you give us your teaching you know, hey, you give us your teaching plan and then we'll create the small plan and then we'll create the small plan and then we'll create the small group resources for you. So I I think group resources for you. So I I think group resources for you. So I I think after 5 years of doing it, we looked at after 5 years of doing it, we looked at after 5 years of doing it, we looked at I mean the thousands of I mean the thousands of I mean the thousands of group material that we made following group material that we made following group material that we made following the plan of the senior pastor. And there the plan of the senior pastor. And there the plan of the senior pastor. And there were entire books in the Bible that were entire books in the Bible that were entire books in the Bible that no that no study was done on. you only no that no study was done on. you only no that no study was done on. you only have to do five books of the Bible. have to do five books of the Bible. have to do five books of the Bible. >> It like for example, Acts 2:42-47. >> It like for example, Acts 2:42-47. >> It like for example, Acts 2:42-47. I mean that I mean everybody was I mean that I mean everybody was I mean that I mean everybody was teaching that teaching that teaching that >> over and over again. And it's a great >> over and over again. And it's a great >> over and over again. And it's a great passage. I love that passage. But it passage. I love that passage. But it passage. I love that passage. But it just just one example made me think, just just one example made me think, just just one example made me think, wow, if the senior pastor does want to wow, if the senior pastor does want to wow, if the senior pastor does want to be the the chief curriculum officer at be the the chief curriculum officer at be the the chief curriculum officer at his church, then man, he probably wants his church, then man, he probably wants his church, then man, he probably wants to look at the whole breath of what he's to look at the whole breath of what he's to look at the whole breath of what he's going to teach over a several year going to teach over a several year going to teach over a several year period of time. Is there a balance of period of time. Is there a balance of period of time. Is there a balance of Old Testament, New Testament, character Old Testament, New Testament, character Old Testament, New Testament, character of God, identity in Christ? It it just of God, identity in Christ? It it just of God, identity in Christ? It it just felt felt felt >> um undisiplined, you know, you you know >> um undisiplined, you know, you you know >> um undisiplined, you know, you you know what I mean?

what I mean? what I mean? >> Um so that that was one example. Another >> Um so that that was one example. Another >> Um so that that was one example. Another is we we we would do research projects is we we we would do research projects is we we we would do research projects on uh if churches had a a plan for on uh if churches had a a plan for on uh if churches had a a plan for leadership development, for raising up leadership development, for raising up leadership development, for raising up leaders, leaders, leaders, >> and the vast majority of churches didn't >> and the vast majority of churches didn't >> and the vast majority of churches didn't have any kind of intentional plan for have any kind of intentional plan for have any kind of intentional plan for leadership development. So there was leadership development. So there was leadership development. So there was just so many studies like that that was just so many studies like that that was just so many studies like that that was concerning concerning concerning great people who want to make disciples great people who want to make disciples great people who want to make disciples but a lack of thoughtfulness on here's but a lack of thoughtfulness on here's but a lack of thoughtfulness on here's how we're going to make disciples. how we're going to make disciples. how we're going to make disciples. >> Leadership development is an FAQ I get >> Leadership development is an FAQ I get >> Leadership development is an FAQ I get on the regular. What would you say most on the regular. What would you say most on the regular. What would you say most church leaders from what you could see church leaders from what you could see church leaders from what you could see anyway was their de facto plan? Because anyway was their de facto plan? Because anyway was their de facto plan? Because not having a plan is a plan. not having a plan is a plan. not having a plan is a plan. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right. So and obviously there are some >> Right. So and obviously there are some >> Right. So and obviously there are some people in positions of leadership. It's people in positions of leadership. It's people in positions of leadership. It's not I'm sure there's one church with one not I'm sure there's one church with one not I'm sure there's one church with one guy, but like most of us have people in guy, but like most of us have people in guy, but like most of us have people in leadership, but we don't have a leadership, but we don't have a leadership, but we don't have a leadership pipeline. Totally. leadership pipeline. Totally. leadership pipeline. Totally. >> So, what would you say the de facto plan >> So, what would you say the de facto plan >> So, what would you say the de facto plan would be for most pastors? What's would be for most pastors? What's would be for most pastors? What's actually happening? actually happening? actually happening? >> And so, you're you're asking from my >> And so, you're you're asking from my >> And so, you're you're asking from my time then, right? I've been here seven time then, right? I've been here seven time then, right? I've been here seven years now. years now. years now. >> You make Yeah, I know. We're going to >> You make Yeah, I know. We're going to >> You make Yeah, I know. We're going to get there, but you can make an get there, but you can make an get there, but you can make an observation from what you see now.

observation from what you see now. observation from what you see now. >> Well, now I'm less involved. I mean, now >> Well, now I'm less involved. I mean, now >> Well, now I'm less involved. I mean, now I'm so focused here. I'm so focused here. I'm so focused here. >> I'm I'm so focused here. >> I'm I'm so focused here. >> I'm I'm so focused here. >> Yeah. You don't have time to look >> Yeah. You don't have time to look >> Yeah. You don't have time to look around. around. around. >> I don't pay attention much like I did. I >> I don't pay attention much like I did. I >> I don't pay attention much like I did. I mean, I would it was my role really to mean, I would it was my role really to mean, I would it was my role really to to look over a whole lot at during that to look over a whole lot at during that to look over a whole lot at during that season. The de facto, especially I'd say season. The de facto, especially I'd say season. The de facto, especially I'd say churches past 200 and higher was just churches past 200 and higher was just churches past 200 and higher was just complete decentralization. complete decentralization. complete decentralization. Um, whatever whoever was in charge of Um, whatever whoever was in charge of Um, whatever whoever was in charge of that ministry was responsible for that ministry was responsible for that ministry was responsible for leadership development. Yeah. And then leadership development. Yeah. And then leadership development. Yeah. And then so some you could have some leaders he so some you could have some leaders he so some you could have some leaders he might have a kids a kids pastor who is might have a kids a kids pastor who is might have a kids a kids pastor who is crushing it but out of out in leadership crushing it but out of out in leadership crushing it but out of out in leadership development I mean has a structure of development I mean has a structure of development I mean has a structure of coaches and leaders and there's great coaches and leaders and there's great coaches and leaders and there's great care and there's a plan of here's the care and there's a plan of here's the care and there's a plan of here's the here's how we're going to give them a here's how we're going to give them a here's how we're going to give them a burden for kids ministry. Here's the burden for kids ministry. Here's the burden for kids ministry. Here's the tools we're going to give them to tools we're going to give them to tools we're going to give them to shepherd kids. Well, you might have that shepherd kids. Well, you might have that shepherd kids. Well, you might have that happening in complete isolation uh and happening in complete isolation uh and happening in complete isolation uh and there's nothing happening in the the there's nothing happening in the the there's nothing happening in the the adult space or the worship space. C- adult space or the worship space. C- adult space or the worship space. C- because it was just completely a because it was just completely a because it was just completely a decentralized no not even a same decentralized no not even a same decentralized no not even a same nomenclature. It was the it was the nomenclature. It was the it was the nomenclature. It was the it was the default meaning a leader in one area default meaning a leader in one area default meaning a leader in one area could be called something completely could be called something completely could be called something completely different in another area.

different in another area. different in another area. >> Right. So no central vision not even >> Right. So no central vision not even >> Right. So no central vision not even sure that those individual departments sure that those individual departments sure that those individual departments are going to be aligned with the central are going to be aligned with the central are going to be aligned with the central mission. mission. mission. >> Very true. And because it it's they were >> Very true. And because it it's they were >> Very true. And because it it's they were so segmented if a volunteer in the so segmented if a volunteer in the so segmented if a volunteer in the church would would move from the kids church would would move from the kids church would would move from the kids ministry to a different ministry it ministry to a different ministry it ministry to a different ministry it could feel like they were literally could feel like they were literally could feel like they were literally going to a different church. going to a different church. going to a different church. even though it's the same church because even though it's the same church because even though it's the same church because there's not there's to your point there's not there's to your point there's not there's to your point there's not a a here's where we're there's not a a here's where we're there's not a a here's where we're headed and here's how we develop people. headed and here's how we develop people. headed and here's how we develop people. >> How far in your view can you grow? How >> How far in your view can you grow? How >> How far in your view can you grow? How large can you grow without a strategic large can you grow without a strategic large can you grow without a strategic leadership development strategy at leadership development strategy at leadership development strategy at least? Yeah, I think I'm glad you said least? Yeah, I think I'm glad you said least? Yeah, I think I'm glad you said it that way because there is a it that way because there is a it that way because there is a difference between a strategy and a and difference between a strategy and a and difference between a strategy and a and a person, you know, or you so someone a person, you know, or you so someone a person, you know, or you so someone will ask how how large does a church will ask how how large does a church will ask how how large does a church need to grow before you dedicate need to grow before you dedicate need to grow before you dedicate personnel for that in a centralized way personnel for that in a centralized way personnel for that in a centralized way >> versus >> versus >> versus >> if you have a leadership team that says >> if you have a leadership team that says >> if you have a leadership team that says we're going to together create the we're going to together create the we're going to together create the strategy of how we develop leaders, you strategy of how we develop leaders, you strategy of how we develop leaders, you can grow, you can do it that way without can grow, you can do it that way without can grow, you can do it that way without without additional personnel. If without additional personnel. If without additional personnel. If everyone on the team owns this is part everyone on the team owns this is part everyone on the team owns this is part of our role, which it is part of of our role, which it is part of of our role, which it is part of everyone's role. Ephesians 4:11-13, the everyone's role. Ephesians 4:11-13, the everyone's role. Ephesians 4:11-13, the role is to prepare others for ministry, role is to prepare others for ministry, role is to prepare others for ministry, not just to do ministry, right? So, I not just to do ministry, right? So, I not just to do ministry, right? So, I mean, gosh, I mean, we we had it here at mean, gosh, I mean, we we had it here at mean, gosh, I mean, we we had it here at Mariners um a view of everyone owning it Mariners um a view of everyone owning it Mariners um a view of everyone owning it and the same strategy.

and the same strategy. and the same strategy. I mean probably passed 10,000 before we I mean probably passed 10,000 before we I mean probably passed 10,000 before we >> dedicated people personnel to we we we >> dedicated people personnel to we we we >> dedicated people personnel to we we we try to do it with systems and strategy try to do it with systems and strategy try to do it with systems and strategy first for a long time before allocating first for a long time before allocating first for a long time before allocating you know people towards you know people towards you know people towards dedicated staff towards it. So, I want dedicated staff towards it. So, I want dedicated staff towards it. So, I want to come back to that in a little bit, to come back to that in a little bit, to come back to that in a little bit, but from where you sat in that but from where you sat in that but from where you sat in that privileged seat, because as you're privileged seat, because as you're privileged seat, because as you're right, when I talk to people who lead right, when I talk to people who lead right, when I talk to people who lead big churches, nine times out of 10, big churches, nine times out of 10, big churches, nine times out of 10, they're like, "Yeah, I don't have time they're like, "Yeah, I don't have time they're like, "Yeah, I don't have time to pay attention to trends. I'm not to pay attention to trends. I'm not to pay attention to trends. I'm not really looking around the country to see really looking around the country to see really looking around the country to see what's going on." Like, you pick stuff what's going on." Like, you pick stuff what's going on." Like, you pick stuff up from your friends and what you see at up from your friends and what you see at up from your friends and what you see at a conference and that kind of thing. But a conference and that kind of thing. But a conference and that kind of thing. But that's a unique seat to really your job that's a unique seat to really your job that's a unique seat to really your job and responsibility is to look at the and responsibility is to look at the and responsibility is to look at the state of the church. state of the church. state of the church. >> Yes. and to try to >> Yes. and to try to >> Yes. and to try to >> in my last role >> in my last role >> in my last role >> in your last role previous was there >> in your last role previous was there >> in your last role previous was there anything else you saw in that seat which anything else you saw in that seat which anything else you saw in that seat which again is almost 10 years now since you again is almost 10 years now since you again is almost 10 years now since you were there were there were there >> that uh is worth noting that you noticed >> that uh is worth noting that you noticed >> that uh is worth noting that you noticed and said man if we could fix this or hey and said man if we could fix this or hey and said man if we could fix this or hey this is amazing and I love seeing this this is amazing and I love seeing this this is amazing and I love seeing this >> I I I'll say every research project that >> I I I'll say every research project that >> I I I'll say every research project that we were a part of that looked at how we were a part of that looked at how we were a part of that looked at how people grow spiritually found that people grow spiritually found that people grow spiritually found that getting people in the scripture is by getting people in the scripture is by getting people in the scripture is by far the most important I walked away far the most important I walked away far the most important I walked away from my time at lifeway moving to senior from my time at lifeway moving to senior from my time at lifeway moving to senior pastor at mariners with a stronger pastor at mariners with a stronger pastor at mariners with a stronger conviction that conviction that conviction that the discipline of engage in God's word the discipline of engage in God's word the discipline of engage in God's word is the discipline that impacts every is the discipline that impacts every is the discipline that impacts every other discipline. M so other discipline. M so other discipline. M so >> like the keystone >> like the keystone >> like the keystone >> yeah it's it's like um so if somebody >> yeah it's it's like um so if somebody >> yeah it's it's like um so if somebody increases we know that spiritual increases we know that spiritual increases we know that spiritual disciplines like serving giving they all

disciplines like serving giving they all disciplines like serving giving they all they help our spiritual growth you know they help our spiritual growth you know they help our spiritual growth you know being generous causes us to rely on him being generous causes us to rely on him being generous causes us to rely on him realize everything is a gift from him realize everything is a gift from him realize everything is a gift from him serving helps us to remember that Christ serving helps us to remember that Christ serving helps us to remember that Christ served us we know this uh when we would served us we know this uh when we would served us we know this uh when we would do research projects we would find that do research projects we would find that do research projects we would find that someone who serves their serving could someone who serves their serving could someone who serves their serving could go up but their generosity doesn't go up but their generosity doesn't go up but their generosity doesn't necessarily go uph necessarily go uph necessarily go uph >> and vice versa someone can be more >> and vice versa someone can be more >> and vice versa someone can be more generous and their serving doesn't generous and their serving doesn't generous and their serving doesn't necessarily increase, but somebody necessarily increase, but somebody necessarily increase, but somebody reading the scripture increases every reading the scripture increases every reading the scripture increases every other discipline. other discipline. other discipline. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Yes. It was the only discipline that >> Yes. It was the only discipline that >> Yes. It was the only discipline that impacted every other discipline. impacted every other discipline. impacted every other discipline. >> And that's what daily Bible reading, >> And that's what daily Bible reading, >> And that's what daily Bible reading, semi-weekly, semi-weekly, semi-weekly, >> reading, engaging the scripture. I can't >> reading, engaging the scripture. I can't >> reading, engaging the scripture. I can't remember how many days a week it was, remember how many days a week it was, remember how many days a week it was, but it was active engagement, but it was active engagement, but it was active engagement, >> obviously at church, engaging the text, >> obviously at church, engaging the text, >> obviously at church, engaging the text, but daily Bible reading. You you share but daily Bible reading. You you share but daily Bible reading. You you share the gospel more. You are more the gospel more. You are more the gospel more. You are more hospitable. You repent of sin more. You hospitable. You repent of sin more. You hospitable. You repent of sin more. You give more. or you serve more. It's the give more. or you serve more. It's the give more. or you serve more. It's the discipline that impacts every other discipline that impacts every other discipline that impacts every other discipline. So I I mean we should be discipline. So I I mean we should be discipline. So I I mean we should be really encouraged. Now I do know this really encouraged. Now I do know this really encouraged. Now I do know this even though I don't watch all the trends even though I don't watch all the trends even though I don't watch all the trends the same like Bible sales are up right the same like Bible sales are up right the same like Bible sales are up right now. now. now. >> People are engaging the text.

>> People are engaging the text. >> People are engaging the text. >> We I mean we we're seeing young people >> We I mean we we're seeing young people >> We I mean we we're seeing young people hungry for the scripture. hungry for the scripture. hungry for the scripture. >> Billion downloads this year. That should >> Billion downloads this year. That should >> Billion downloads this year. That should fire everybody up. fire everybody up. fire everybody up. >> Installs. That's crazy. >> Installs. That's crazy. >> Installs. That's crazy. >> That's amazing because we really do >> That's amazing because we really do >> That's amazing because we really do believe that the word does the work in believe that the word does the work in believe that the word does the work in us to change us us to change us us to change us >> if we if we approach the word humbly. So >> if we if we approach the word humbly. So >> if we if we approach the word humbly. So you're happy at Lifeway, comfortable you're happy at Lifeway, comfortable you're happy at Lifeway, comfortable there, you have a bright future. Yeah. there, you have a bright future. Yeah. there, you have a bright future. Yeah. >> And you go on to take a call to lead one >> And you go on to take a call to lead one >> And you go on to take a call to lead one of the largest and most influential of the largest and most influential of the largest and most influential ministries in America. What prompted ministries in America. What prompted ministries in America. What prompted that shift for you? that shift for you? that shift for you? So I had I had left Miami where I was So I had I had left Miami where I was So I had I had left Miami where I was executive and teaching pastor at Christ executive and teaching pastor at Christ executive and teaching pastor at Christ Fellowship, went to Lifeway. I was there Fellowship, went to Lifeway. I was there Fellowship, went to Lifeway. I was there seven years and I missed the local seven years and I missed the local seven years and I missed the local church church church >> day one. So I I I served as interim >> day one. So I I I served as interim >> day one. So I I I served as interim pastor multiple times. I was teaching pastor multiple times. I was teaching pastor multiple times. I was teaching pastor at a church while I was there. K pastor at a church while I was there. K pastor at a church while I was there. K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K K My wife and I led, My wife and I led, My wife and I led, >> you know, young adult couples Sunday >> you know, young adult couples Sunday >> you know, young adult couples Sunday school classes. I mean, we we just we school classes. I mean, we we just we school classes. I mean, we we just we love the local church. I loved my role love the local church. I loved my role love the local church. I loved my role at Lifeway. I loved the people I worked at Lifeway. I loved the people I worked at Lifeway. I loved the people I worked for and I loved the team I was on, but I for and I loved the team I was on, but I for and I loved the team I was on, but I did miss the I mean, I think I'm an did miss the I mean, I think I'm an did miss the I mean, I think I'm an operator. I missed the grind of the operator. I missed the grind of the operator. I missed the grind of the local church, you know. I I missed the local church, you know. I I missed the local church, you know. I I missed the weekend responsibilities. I missed weekend responsibilities. I missed weekend responsibilities. I missed >> I mean, you know, I was a little bit >> I mean, you know, I was a little bit >> I mean, you know, I was a little bit late for this because I just did a late for this because I just did a late for this because I just did a funeral service, you know. I I Yeah, funeral service, you know. I I Yeah, funeral service, you know. I I Yeah, >> I missed that when I was at Lifeway. And >> I missed that when I was at Lifeway. And >> I missed that when I was at Lifeway. And Kay and I knew that at some point we Kay and I knew that at some point we Kay and I knew that at some point we would go back to the local church. We would go back to the local church. We would go back to the local church. We were in the local church the whole time, were in the local church the whole time, were in the local church the whole time, but back, you know, full time,

but back, you know, full time, but back, you know, full time, >> leading full time. >> leading full time. >> leading full time. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> We just didn't know if it would when it >> We just didn't know if it would when it >> We just didn't know if it would when it would be. And I mean it's a long it's a would be. And I mean it's a long it's a would be. And I mean it's a long it's a long story but uh God just made it long story but uh God just made it long story but uh God just made it really clear which was very gracious of really clear which was very gracious of really clear which was very gracious of of him. of him. of him. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> As opposed to hey there's other times >> As opposed to hey there's other times >> As opposed to hey there's other times where I've felt it he's said Eric either where I've felt it he's said Eric either where I've felt it he's said Eric either one's great. I tr you know I'm handing one's great. I tr you know I'm handing one's great. I tr you know I'm handing responsibility over you responsibility over you responsibility over you >> as long as you don't get into organized >> as long as you don't get into organized >> as long as you don't get into organized crime. You're okay. crime. You're okay. crime. You're okay. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I care more about what I'm doing in you >> I care more about what I'm doing in you >> I care more about what I'm doing in you than where you do it. I believe all than where you do it. I believe all than where you do it. I believe all that. that. that. >> But coming to Mariners he made it really >> But coming to Mariners he made it really >> But coming to Mariners he made it really clear which was very kind of him. clear which was very kind of him. clear which was very kind of him. >> How did that happen? I was actually out >> How did that happen? I was actually out >> How did that happen? I was actually out in Southern California speaking at a in Southern California speaking at a in Southern California speaking at a conference and I I just sensed a burden conference and I I just sensed a burden conference and I I just sensed a burden for this area. I was with my oldest for this area. I was with my oldest for this area. I was with my oldest daughter. I brought her on the trip and daughter. I brought her on the trip and daughter. I brought her on the trip and I kept texting K, my wife, back in I kept texting K, my wife, back in I kept texting K, my wife, back in Nashville. She was a public school Nashville. She was a public school Nashville. She was a public school teacher at the time saying, "I I think I teacher at the time saying, "I I think I teacher at the time saying, "I I think I don't know. I can't explain it. I I just don't know. I can't explain it. I I just don't know. I can't explain it. I I just have a burden for here." And she's like, have a burden for here." And she's like, have a burden for here." And she's like, "You just you just like the weather." "You just you just like the weather." "You just you just like the weather." Cuz I hated the I just hated I hated the Cuz I hated the I just hated I hated the Cuz I hated the I just hated I hated the weather in in Nashville. You know, we weather in in Nashville. You know, we weather in in Nashville. You know, we >> What did you hate about it? >> What did you hate about it? >> What did you hate about it? >> I'm I It was It's cold and rainy. It's >> I'm I It was It's cold and rainy. It's >> I'm I It was It's cold and rainy. It's it's rainy in the spring and cold. Yeah.

it's rainy in the spring and cold. Yeah. it's rainy in the spring and cold. Yeah. No palm. I was in Miami before, right? No palm. I was in Miami before, right? No palm. I was in Miami before, right? You know. Oh, yeah. You know. Oh, yeah. You know. Oh, yeah. >> So, I I missed that. And uh I was like, >> So, I I missed that. And uh I was like, >> So, I I missed that. And uh I was like, "Baby, no. The weather's not even It was "Baby, no. The weather's not even It was "Baby, no. The weather's not even It was in February. It wasn't even awesome in February. It wasn't even awesome in February. It wasn't even awesome out." Sometimes in February it can be out." Sometimes in February it can be out." Sometimes in February it can be rainy out here. rainy out here. rainy out here. >> People don't think so. And cool. Yes. >> People don't think so. And cool. Yes. >> People don't think so. And cool. Yes. >> And I said, "No, I'm serious. We'll >> And I said, "No, I'm serious. We'll >> And I said, "No, I'm serious. We'll talk." And she said, "We'll talk when we talk." And she said, "We'll talk when we talk." And she said, "We'll talk when we get home. When you get home." And so I get home. When you get home." And so I get home. When you get home." And so I went I flew home on a Sunday. and that went I flew home on a Sunday. and that went I flew home on a Sunday. and that and Sunday night I was just telling her and Sunday night I was just telling her and Sunday night I was just telling her about this this I can't really explain about this this I can't really explain about this this I can't really explain it. It's almost mysterious burden I was it. It's almost mysterious burden I was it. It's almost mysterious burden I was sensing from the Lord for Southern sensing from the Lord for Southern sensing from the Lord for Southern California. And then she goes to bed. California. And then she goes to bed. California. And then she goes to bed. I'm still in West Coast time. I'm not I'm still in West Coast time. I'm not I'm still in West Coast time. I'm not sleepy. So I'm staying up on the sleepy. So I'm staying up on the sleepy. So I'm staying up on the computer answering some emails. And computer answering some emails. And computer answering some emails. And William Vanderblum, who was running the William Vanderblum, who was running the William Vanderblum, who was running the search for Mariners, texted me and said, search for Mariners, texted me and said, search for Mariners, texted me and said, "I want to talk to you about Mariners." "I want to talk to you about Mariners." "I want to talk to you about Mariners." This is like 30 minutes after I told This is like 30 minutes after I told This is like 30 minutes after I told Kay. Kay. Kay. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. >> I'm like, this. So, I go in back into >> I'm like, this. So, I go in back into >> I'm like, this. So, I go in back into the bedroom. Kay's not quite dozed off the bedroom. Kay's not quite dozed off the bedroom. Kay's not quite dozed off yet. I'm like, baby, you've got to see yet. I'm like, baby, you've got to see yet. I'm like, baby, you've got to see this. this. this. >> You want a sign from God? >> You want a sign from God? >> You want a sign from God? >> This is crazy. This is the place I just >> This is crazy. This is the place I just >> This is crazy. This is the place I just >> So, I I I spent that night just deep >> So, I I I spent that night just deep >> So, I I I spent that night just deep diving everything I could find about diving everything I could find about diving everything I could find about Mariners Church. And then I texted Mariners Church. And then I texted Mariners Church. And then I texted William back and said, "I can't."

William back and said, "I can't." William back and said, "I can't." because I had told Tom Rener who you because I had told Tom Rener who you because I had told Tom Rener who you know mutual friend of ours that I was know mutual friend of ours that I was know mutual friend of ours that I was gonna I was committed to work with him gonna I was committed to work with him gonna I was committed to work with him through his transition through his transition through his transition >> and >> and >> and >> that's my understanding of what the plan >> that's my understanding of what the plan >> that's my understanding of what the plan was. You were going to take over for was. You were going to take over for was. You were going to take over for Tom. Tom. Tom. >> That's what I mean >> That's what I mean >> That's what I mean >> possibly >> possibly >> possibly >> the board would have to have approved it >> the board would have to have approved it >> the board would have to have approved it but but that's what it looked like the but but that's what it looked like the but but that's what it looked like the trajectory was going to be. Yeah. trajectory was going to be. Yeah. trajectory was going to be. Yeah. >> That I I was the air apparent person you >> That I I was the air apparent person you >> That I I was the air apparent person you know. know. know. >> Right. Right. Um, >> Right. Right. Um, >> Right. Right. Um, and so and so and so I told I I told William I couldn't talk I told I I told William I couldn't talk I told I I told William I couldn't talk about it because I felt committed to about it because I felt committed to about it because I felt committed to Tom. Tom. Tom. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> So Tom calls me into his office the next >> So Tom calls me into his office the next >> So Tom calls me into his office the next day, which is rare. I'd have a monthly day, which is rare. I'd have a monthly day, which is rare. I'd have a monthly update with Tom, but update with Tom, but update with Tom, but >> uh he called me into his office and >> uh he called me into his office and >> uh he called me into his office and said, "Hey, I know that Mariners wants said, "Hey, I know that Mariners wants said, "Hey, I know that Mariners wants to talk to you. to talk to you. to talk to you. >> I know how you are that you don't you >> I know how you are that you don't you >> I know how you are that you don't you your word matters to you. I just want your word matters to you. I just want your word matters to you. I just want you to know if you want to talk to you to know if you want to talk to you to know if you want to talk to Mariners, Mariners, Mariners, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I I would feel bad if you regretted not I I would feel bad if you regretted not I I would feel bad if you regretted not talking to them. I know. He's such a talking to them. I know. He's such a talking to them. I know. He's such a great man. great man. great man. >> It's huge. >> It's huge. >> It's huge. >> And so I said, "How often do you want to >> And so I said, "How often do you want to >> And so I said, "How often do you want to be updated?" He said, "I don't want to be updated?" He said, "I don't want to be updated?" He said, "I don't want to be updated." And so that was February.

be updated." And so that was February. be updated." And so that was February. And the process with mariners was a And the process with mariners was a And the process with mariners was a long, it was a very thoughtful process. long, it was a very thoughtful process. long, it was a very thoughtful process. This is a funny story. At the very end This is a funny story. At the very end This is a funny story. At the very end of it, he uh he calls me one night, like of it, he uh he calls me one night, like of it, he uh he calls me one night, like on a Sunday night, and says, "Hey, um on a Sunday night, and says, "Hey, um on a Sunday night, and says, "Hey, um I'm going to go ahead and move my I'm going to go ahead and move my I'm going to go ahead and move my retirement up. This is what I think is retirement up. This is what I think is retirement up. This is what I think is going to happen." And I said, "Boss, I'm going to happen." And I said, "Boss, I'm going to happen." And I said, "Boss, I'm flying I'm flying back to Southern flying I'm flying back to Southern flying I'm flying back to Southern California tomorrow for my final California tomorrow for my final California tomorrow for my final interview." interview." interview." Because he had told me not to update Because he had told me not to update Because he had told me not to update him, you know, right? him, you know, right? him, you know, right? >> And um he just started laughing. He >> And um he just started laughing. He >> And um he just started laughing. He said, "Man, I trust God. That's how how said, "Man, I trust God. That's how how said, "Man, I trust God. That's how how he is, you know." So that was the he is, you know." So that was the he is, you know." So that was the process. That was the process. process. That was the process. process. That was the process. >> Wow. So couple of things. Number one, >> Wow. So couple of things. Number one, >> Wow. So couple of things. Number one, you know, you follow a legacy pastor you know, you follow a legacy pastor you know, you follow a legacy pastor who'd been here for over 30 years. who'd been here for over 30 years. who'd been here for over 30 years. >> 35 years. >> 35 years. >> 35 years. >> Um built one of the most beautiful >> Um built one of the most beautiful >> Um built one of the most beautiful campuses I think anybody could ever be campuses I think anybody could ever be campuses I think anybody could ever be on. It's it's huge. You You're one of on. It's it's huge. You You're one of on. It's it's huge. You You're one of the largest churches in the United the largest churches in the United the largest churches in the United States even before you got here. States even before you got here. States even before you got here. >> A lot of people say that's a fool's >> A lot of people say that's a fool's >> A lot of people say that's a fool's errand that you are the sacrificial errand that you are the sacrificial errand that you are the sacrificial lamb.

lamb. lamb. >> Yeah. Enjoy your two years here in >> Yeah. Enjoy your two years here in >> Yeah. Enjoy your two years here in SoCal. SoCal. SoCal. >> Have a fun inter for a couple years. >> Have a fun inter for a couple years. >> Have a fun inter for a couple years. >> You're going to be the pave the way for >> You're going to be the pave the way for >> You're going to be the pave the way for the next guy. the next guy. the next guy. >> The the full-time senior interim pastor >> The the full-time senior interim pastor >> The the full-time senior interim pastor while everybody gets mad at you that while everybody gets mad at you that while everybody gets mad at you that it's not the way it was. You were aware, it's not the way it was. You were aware, it's not the way it was. You were aware, I mean, you study church leadership. I mean, you study church leadership. I mean, you study church leadership. You're aware that that's what you're You're aware that that's what you're You're aware that that's what you're walking into. What's the internal walking into. What's the internal walking into. What's the internal process as you accept the call realizing process as you accept the call realizing process as you accept the call realizing that that is often how it goes? that that is often how it goes? that that is often how it goes? >> Yep. um clearly knowing that the Lord >> Yep. um clearly knowing that the Lord >> Yep. um clearly knowing that the Lord was directing which was which was which was directing which was which was which was directing which was which was which was super gracious of him and also was super gracious of him and also was super gracious of him and also feeling a lot of harmony with mariners feeling a lot of harmony with mariners feeling a lot of harmony with mariners and Kenton Behore who is the predecessor and Kenton Behore who is the predecessor and Kenton Behore who is the predecessor feeling we spent a lot of time together feeling we spent a lot of time together feeling we spent a lot of time together in fact I came out a whole extra time in fact I came out a whole extra time in fact I came out a whole extra time just to theologically talk to him about just to theologically talk to him about just to theologically talk to him about all kinds of things all kinds of things all kinds of things >> because I didn't want to feel as if I >> because I didn't want to feel as if I >> because I didn't want to feel as if I was going to come and and make like a was going to come and and make like a was going to come and and make like a big big shift turn big big shift turn big big shift turn >> hard shift this way or that way. Yeah. >> hard shift this way or that way. Yeah. >> hard shift this way or that way. Yeah. >> That his philosophy and his theology, >> That his philosophy and his theology, >> That his philosophy and his theology, the closer that we were, the the the closer that we were, the the the closer that we were, the the smoother the transition would be smoother the transition would be smoother the transition would be and that I would I wanted to love and that I would I wanted to love and that I would I wanted to love Mariners as she was, not some future Mariners as she was, not some future Mariners as she was, not some future version of Mariners, you know. So So version of Mariners, you know. So So version of Mariners, you know. So So those were those were like practical those were those were like practical those were those were like practical things things things >> that that Kent and I worked through. One >> that that Kent and I worked through. One >> that that Kent and I worked through. One of the the first meetings, of the the first meetings, of the the first meetings, my favorite theologian that I've learned my favorite theologian that I've learned my favorite theologian that I've learned the most from is John Sto.

the most from is John Sto. the most from is John Sto. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> John Sto mentored Ken. >> John Sto mentored Ken. >> John Sto mentored Ken. >> I did not know that. >> I did not know that. >> I did not know that. >> Yes. I mean, Scott's been to the Night >> Yes. I mean, Scott's been to the Night >> Yes. I mean, Scott's been to the Night of Ken's house multiple times. of Ken's house multiple times. of Ken's house multiple times. >> And so when we when I knew that, I was >> And so when we when I knew that, I was >> And so when we when I knew that, I was like, "Oh man, there's there's so much like, "Oh man, there's there's so much like, "Oh man, there's there's so much on the we're on the same page on so many on the we're on the same page on so many on the we're on the same page on so many things, you know." Um, things, you know." Um, things, you know." Um, and that that was that was a I think a and that that was that was a I think a and that that was that was a I think a moment for both Kenton and me to realize moment for both Kenton and me to realize moment for both Kenton and me to realize that we had some harmony on really that we had some harmony on really that we had some harmony on really important doctrinal issues. So I was important doctrinal issues. So I was important doctrinal issues. So I was talking to successor no names and you talking to successor no names and you talking to successor no names and you know followed somebody with a huge know followed somebody with a huge know followed somebody with a huge legacy and one of the things a couple legacy and one of the things a couple legacy and one of the things a couple years in is always yeah but you're not years in is always yeah but you're not years in is always yeah but you're not and as aligned as you may have been with and as aligned as you may have been with and as aligned as you may have been with Kenton even the John Stoen come and that Kenton even the John Stoen come and that Kenton even the John Stoen come and that kind of thing kind of thing kind of thing >> there are people who would say yeah but >> there are people who would say yeah but >> there are people who would say yeah but you're not you're not you're not >> Kenton. >> Kenton. >> Kenton. >> Did you run into that? How did you deal >> Did you run into that? How did you deal >> Did you run into that? How did you deal with it? with it? with it? >> Yeah. Um Kenton made it as easy as any >> Yeah. Um Kenton made it as easy as any >> Yeah. Um Kenton made it as easy as any predecessor could. Mhm. predecessor could. Mhm. predecessor could. Mhm. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> what did he do? >> what did he do? >> what did he do? >> I mean, he's he's a genius. Kenton is >> I mean, he's he's a genius. Kenton is >> I mean, he's he's a genius. Kenton is he's a he's just an intuitive genius.

he's a he's just an intuitive genius. he's a he's just an intuitive genius. Think he did he made some decisions for Think he did he made some decisions for Think he did he made some decisions for me that I wouldn't have to make, such as me that I wouldn't have to make, such as me that I wouldn't have to make, such as he um got an office off off of campus. he um got an office off off of campus. he um got an office off off of campus. >> So, we asked him to stay. He's pastor >> So, we asked him to stay. He's pastor >> So, we asked him to stay. He's pastor me. We he's still on our team. He me. We he's still on our team. He me. We he's still on our team. He teaches several times a year. He and I teaches several times a year. He and I teaches several times a year. He and I are very close. But Kenton cannot are very close. But Kenton cannot are very close. But Kenton cannot not lead in a in a room any room he's not lead in a in a room any room he's not lead in a in a room any room he's in. in. in. >> If he walks into the room, he's going to >> If he walks into the room, he's going to >> If he walks into the room, he's going to >> he owns the room. >> he owns the room. >> he owns the room. >> If Kitten and I are in the same room, >> If Kitten and I are in the same room, >> If Kitten and I are in the same room, I'm I'm I'm going to be a little more a I'm I'm I'm going to be a little more a I'm I'm I'm going to be a little more a bit more chill than he is. He's very bit more chill than he is. He's very bit more chill than he is. He's very He's so strong and he knows that about He's so strong and he knows that about He's so strong and he knows that about himself. He's just very self-aware in a himself. He's just very self-aware in a himself. He's just very self-aware in a very healthy way. He's very healthy and very healthy way. He's very healthy and very healthy way. He's very healthy and he he So, he just removed himself. I I he he So, he just removed himself. I I he he So, he just removed himself. I I would not have to have asked them to do would not have to have asked them to do would not have to have asked them to do that and I would never have wanted to that and I would never have wanted to that and I would never have wanted to ask him to do that. ask him to do that. ask him to do that. >> But that gave me runway where I'm never >> But that gave me runway where I'm never >> But that gave me runway where I'm never leading a meeting anybody sitting there leading a meeting anybody sitting there leading a meeting anybody sitting there taking notes looking at him. taking notes looking at him. taking notes looking at him. >> Kent's going to come come in. Um so that >> Kent's going to come come in. Um so that >> Kent's going to come come in. Um so that was that was that was one of that's just was that was that was one of that's just was that was that was one of that's just a practical example.

a practical example. a practical example. >> What else did Kenton do well >> What else did Kenton do well >> What else did Kenton do well >> to set up the transition? Because we >> to set up the transition? Because we >> to set up the transition? Because we have people in your shoes watching and have people in your shoes watching and have people in your shoes watching and listening. Y listening. Y listening. Y >> we also have a number of people there's >> we also have a number of people there's >> we also have a number of people there's going to be like tens of thousands of going to be like tens of thousands of going to be like tens of thousands of transitions in the next few years. transitions in the next few years. transitions in the next few years. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> As boomer pastors step out and they're >> As boomer pastors step out and they're >> As boomer pastors step out and they're wondering how to do it well. wondering how to do it well. wondering how to do it well. >> What did Kenton do? Well, >> What did Kenton do? Well, >> What did Kenton do? Well, >> very first elder meeting. So I'm I'm one >> very first elder meeting. So I'm I'm one >> very first elder meeting. So I'm I'm one of the directional elders, but they're of the directional elders, but they're of the directional elders, but they're also my bosses. also my bosses. also my bosses. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Um I start in I start Labor Day and then >> Um I start in I start Labor Day and then >> Um I start in I start Labor Day and then we had a meeting like a week later with we had a meeting like a week later with we had a meeting like a week later with elders. Kenton comes into the meeting elders. Kenton comes into the meeting elders. Kenton comes into the meeting and says, "I'm only going to be in this and says, "I'm only going to be in this and says, "I'm only going to be in this meeting um if Eric asked me to." Uh, meeting um if Eric asked me to." Uh, meeting um if Eric asked me to." Uh, "You guys don't talk to me at all unless "You guys don't talk to me at all unless "You guys don't talk to me at all unless Eric I mean, he just he just did some Eric I mean, he just he just did some Eric I mean, he just he just did some things like that that things like that that things like that that >> big separation for him." >> big separation for him." >> big separation for him." >> Yeah. Yeah. And and again, I would never >> Yeah. Yeah. And and again, I would never >> Yeah. Yeah. And and again, I would never have said that. And and the elders, it have said that. And and the elders, it have said that. And and the elders, it it was all healthy, but he just That's it was all healthy, but he just That's it was all healthy, but he just That's how Kenton is, though. makes some brash how Kenton is, though. makes some brash how Kenton is, though. makes some brash statements, but it he just clearly statements, but it he just clearly statements, but it he just clearly Eric's now the leader.

Eric's now the leader. Eric's now the leader. >> Yeah. He had to shift loyalty from him. >> Yeah. He had to shift loyalty from him. >> Yeah. He had to shift loyalty from him. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Well, obviously it's to God. >> Well, obviously it's to God. >> Well, obviously it's to God. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> But from him to you. >> But from him to you. >> But from him to you. >> And I mean 35 years of tenure, right? So >> And I mean 35 years of tenure, right? So >> And I mean 35 years of tenure, right? So he I think he had to make some he I think he had to make some he I think he had to make some statements like that in his mind. statements like that in his mind. statements like that in his mind. >> And what else he he do? I never one time >> And what else he he do? I never one time >> And what else he he do? I never one time felt like he wasn't in my corner the felt like he wasn't in my corner the felt like he wasn't in my corner the entire time. And now it's seven years. entire time. And now it's seven years. entire time. And now it's seven years. So we have two Saturday night services, So we have two Saturday night services, So we have two Saturday night services, one at 4:00, one at 5:30. He's still, one at 4:00, one at 5:30. He's still, one at 4:00, one at 5:30. He's still, this is seven years later, not seven this is seven years later, not seven this is seven years later, not seven months later, seven years later, he months later, seven years later, he months later, seven years later, he comes and sits in the front row at 4:00, comes and sits in the front row at 4:00, comes and sits in the front row at 4:00, takes notes, goes to we have a debrief takes notes, goes to we have a debrief takes notes, goes to we have a debrief after and and like encourages and rahas. after and and like encourages and rahas. after and and like encourages and rahas. This is seven years later. This is how This is seven years later. This is how This is seven years later. This is how godly and humble this man is. And then godly and humble this man is. And then godly and humble this man is. And then if he ever has something that he thinks, if he ever has something that he thinks, if he ever has something that he thinks, and he does often that I should and he does often that I should and he does often that I should consider, he waits till everybody else consider, he waits till everybody else consider, he waits till everybody else leaves the room and says, "Hey man, leaves the room and says, "Hey man, leaves the room and says, "Hey man, here's one one thing you may want to here's one one thing you may want to here's one one thing you may want to consider." So he coaches me and I ask consider." So he coaches me and I ask consider." So he coaches me and I ask him to coach me and we meet once a month him to coach me and we meet once a month him to coach me and we meet once a month for for lunch and I know that meeting's for for lunch and I know that meeting's for for lunch and I know that meeting's coming on my on my phone. I have coming on my on my phone. I have coming on my on my phone. I have different things to ask him and he's different things to ask him and he's different things to ask him and he's been he's been so supportive. M it been he's been so supportive. M it been he's been so supportive. M it >> I mean it's he's been it's been >> I mean it's he's been it's been >> I mean it's he's been it's been unbelievable how great he's been.

unbelievable how great he's been. unbelievable how great he's been. >> Okay. I I want to pose this as a >> Okay. I I want to pose this as a >> Okay. I I want to pose this as a hypothetical because when I see hypothetical because when I see hypothetical because when I see integrity I want to respect it. integrity I want to respect it. integrity I want to respect it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But for those who are watching who >> But for those who are watching who >> But for those who are watching who might be like okay that's cool. I mean I might be like okay that's cool. I mean I might be like okay that's cool. I mean I did this a decade ago in our church. did this a decade ago in our church. did this a decade ago in our church. >> There's a lot of death to self if it's >> There's a lot of death to self if it's >> There's a lot of death to self if it's going to go well. going to go well. going to go well. >> For sure. I I agree. and and and people >> For sure. I I agree. and and and people >> For sure. I I agree. and and and people will say, "Hey, you and Kenton, you guys will say, "Hey, you and Kenton, you guys will say, "Hey, you and Kenton, you guys have done this really well." have done this really well." have done this really well." >> I think it's mainly him dying. >> I think it's mainly him dying. >> I think it's mainly him dying. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I think you're 100% right. >> I think you're 100% right. >> I think you're 100% right. >> So, I had to die a lot to myself. I >> So, I had to die a lot to myself. I >> So, I had to die a lot to myself. I said, "And the thing, you know, it's said, "And the thing, you know, it's said, "And the thing, you know, it's funny. You reminded me of something I funny. You reminded me of something I funny. You reminded me of something I had forgotten about or hadn't thought had forgotten about or hadn't thought had forgotten about or hadn't thought about recently. about recently. about recently. >> The thing I missed the most in the first >> The thing I missed the most in the first >> The thing I missed the most in the first year was I did a hard stop with our year was I did a hard stop with our year was I did a hard stop with our elders. elders. elders. >> I'm like, I am not the lead pastor." >> I'm like, I am not the lead pastor." >> I'm like, I am not the lead pastor." >> And you miss that the most. >> And you miss that the most. >> And you miss that the most. >> I'm getting emotional cuz you loved >> I'm getting emotional cuz you loved >> I'm getting emotional cuz you loved being with them. They were my favorite. being with them. They were my favorite. being with them. They were my favorite. Oh, that's Oh, that's Oh, that's >> They were the best. Yeah. >> They were the best. Yeah. >> They were the best. Yeah. >> And I felt like I lost friends, you >> And I felt like I lost friends, you >> And I felt like I lost friends, you know? I didn't. know? I didn't. know? I didn't. >> But I had to do that hard stop. So that >> But I had to do that hard stop. So that >> But I had to do that hard stop. So that Jeff Jeff Jeff >> had a runway. Yeah. >> had a runway. Yeah. >> had a runway. Yeah. >> And I just thought I really miss my >> And I just thought I really miss my >> And I just thought I really miss my elders. I really miss my elders. And elders. I really miss my elders. And elders. I really miss my elders. And that's great. We're still friends. Like that's great. We're still friends. Like that's great. We're still friends. Like I see them and it's great, but it'll I see them and it's great, but it'll I see them and it's great, but it'll never be the same.

never be the same. never be the same. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You getting emotional makes me sad cuz >> You getting emotional makes me sad cuz >> You getting emotional makes me sad cuz >> I I don't want Kenton to hurt. >> I I don't want Kenton to hurt. >> I I don't want Kenton to hurt. >> No, >> No, >> No, >> I love him. >> I love him. >> I love him. >> But you have to do that. And I and I I >> But you have to do that. And I and I I >> But you have to do that. And I and I I just, you know, I I hope I hope I've just, you know, I I hope I hope I've just, you know, I I hope I hope I've appreciated appreciated appreciated >> all the dying that he's done, >> all the dying that he's done, >> all the dying that he's done, >> you know. >> you know. >> you know. >> Well, if he did the transition well. >> Well, if he did the transition well. >> Well, if he did the transition well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because he learned how to do that. >> Because he learned how to do that. >> Because he learned how to do that. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, here's the hypothetical. >> So, here's the hypothetical. >> So, here's the hypothetical. >> Sorry. >> Sorry. >> Sorry. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If he was going to mess it up, how would >> If he was going to mess it up, how would >> If he was going to mess it up, how would he have done it? he have done it? he have done it? >> Cuz he didn't. I don't want I don't want >> Cuz he didn't. I don't want I don't want >> Cuz he didn't. I don't want I don't want this misqued. Okay. this misqued. Okay. this misqued. Okay. >> Uh he did not. His self-control and his >> Uh he did not. His self-control and his >> Uh he did not. His self-control and his emotional health is so strong. emotional health is so strong. emotional health is so strong. >> I think it would have been hard for him >> I think it would have been hard for him >> I think it would have been hard for him to do the thing to mess it up. to do the thing to mess it up. to do the thing to mess it up. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But >> But >> But >> I mean, >> I mean, >> I mean, >> or anybody to mess it up. If you're >> or anybody to mess it up. If you're >> or anybody to mess it up. If you're going to mess up a succession, here's going to mess up a succession, here's going to mess up a succession, here's the formula. the formula. the formula. >> Uh his voice for >> Uh his voice for >> Uh his voice for >> a long time was probably stronger than >> a long time was probably stronger than >> a long time was probably stronger than my voice. my voice. my voice. >> He he >> He he >> He he >> just had to whisper. >> just had to whisper. >> just had to whisper. >> He could Yes, exactly. >> He could Yes, exactly. >> He could Yes, exactly. >> He could have done some subtle things >> He could have done some subtle things >> He could have done some subtle things that would have derailed directions that that would have derailed directions that that would have derailed directions that we were going. He could have um he we were going. He could have um he we were going. He could have um he wouldn't even had to to be You're right.

wouldn't even had to to be You're right. wouldn't even had to to be You're right. He could have been just a whisper. So He could have been just a whisper. So He could have been just a whisper. So the self-control that he had because I I the self-control that he had because I I the self-control that he had because I I I know I mean I was only here 18 months I know I mean I was only here 18 months I know I mean I was only here 18 months when CO hit right. So welcome. when CO hit right. So welcome. when CO hit right. So welcome. >> So coming out of co you know everyone >> So coming out of co you know everyone >> So coming out of co you know everyone was making a lot of leadership decisions was making a lot of leadership decisions was making a lot of leadership decisions fast daily. And so there's no way that fast daily. And so there's no way that fast daily. And so there's no way that every leadership decision I made he every leadership decision I made he every leadership decision I made he would have thought is awesome. would have thought is awesome. would have thought is awesome. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Although he and I are really close on on >> Although he and I are really close on on >> Although he and I are really close on on how we think about things but I never how we think about things but I never how we think about things but I never knew if he didn't. I mean it's crazy. knew if he didn't. I mean it's crazy. knew if he didn't. I mean it's crazy. >> That's amazing. It's amazing >> That's amazing. It's amazing >> That's amazing. It's amazing >> cuz you probably would have found out. >> cuz you probably would have found out. >> cuz you probably would have found out. >> Yeah. Cuz cuz the power of his whisper >> Yeah. Cuz cuz the power of his whisper >> Yeah. Cuz cuz the power of his whisper and I I think he still has a ton of and I I think he still has a ton of and I I think he still has a ton of influence. The church is has grown a lot influence. The church is has grown a lot influence. The church is has grown a lot now. More location. So there's less now. More location. So there's less now. More location. So there's less people that know that know him as they people that know that know him as they people that know that know him as they do. do. do. >> It's a new story. California's changed >> It's a new story. California's changed >> It's a new story. California's changed the last 5 years. the last 5 years. the last 5 years. >> But we he still teaches. He's still in >> But we he still teaches. He's still in >> But we he still teaches. He's still in our teaching rotation. And our church our teaching rotation. And our church our teaching rotation. And our church honors him and love him, which I love. honors him and love him, which I love. honors him and love him, which I love. And and people, some have been like, And and people, some have been like, And and people, some have been like, "How do how do you respond when when "How do how do you respond when when "How do how do you respond when when somebody like on social media will say somebody like on social media will say somebody like on social media will say when Ken's teaching," oh, finally my my when Ken's teaching," oh, finally my my when Ken's teaching," oh, finally my my favorite pastor's back? And I I It's favorite pastor's back? And I I It's favorite pastor's back? And I I It's great. It's great. You know, it's great.

great. It's great. You know, it's great. great. It's great. You know, it's great. Um I mean, you don't have to say it that Um I mean, you don't have to say it that Um I mean, you don't have to say it that meanly on social, but you know what I'm meanly on social, but you know what I'm meanly on social, but you know what I'm saying? It's great. You know, it's saying? It's great. You know, it's saying? It's great. You know, it's interesting. Jeff Brody, uh I don't know interesting. Jeff Brody, uh I don't know interesting. Jeff Brody, uh I don't know you've ever met Jeff. He's amazing, but you've ever met Jeff. He's amazing, but you've ever met Jeff. He's amazing, but he uh he leads Kexus these days. He's my he uh he leads Kexus these days. He's my he uh he leads Kexus these days. He's my pastor, but I'll teach a couple times a pastor, but I'll teach a couple times a pastor, but I'll teach a couple times a year. And he just said, "Look, I've come year. And he just said, "Look, I've come year. And he just said, "Look, I've come to conclude that you will always be a to conclude that you will always be a to conclude that you will always be a handful of people's pastor." handful of people's pastor." handful of people's pastor." >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> You know, this is always going to be you >> You know, this is always going to be you >> You know, this is always going to be you for them. And I'm like, I don't take for them. And I'm like, I don't take for them. And I'm like, I don't take anything from it because I don't talk to anything from it because I don't talk to anything from it because I don't talk to them between Sundays. I have some them between Sundays. I have some them between Sundays. I have some friends in the church, but they're not friends in the church, but they're not friends in the church, but they're not particularly impressed when I preach. particularly impressed when I preach. particularly impressed when I preach. >> We had a uh just this last Sunday after >> We had a uh just this last Sunday after >> We had a uh just this last Sunday after one of our services, we had a a one of our services, we had a a one of our services, we had a a long-term mariners guy who has cancer long-term mariners guy who has cancer long-term mariners guy who has cancer right now. And we have elder prayer right now. And we have elder prayer right now. And we have elder prayer after all of our services. James 5, you after all of our services. James 5, you after all of our services. James 5, you can the elders of the church will anoint can the elders of the church will anoint can the elders of the church will anoint you with oil and pray over you. And so you with oil and pray over you. And so you with oil and pray over you. And so we asked because he's really connected we asked because he's really connected we asked because he's really connected to some of our directional elders. We to some of our directional elders. We to some of our directional elders. We gathered in the pastor study right right gathered in the pastor study right right gathered in the pastor study right right off of the right after I communicate and off of the right after I communicate and off of the right after I communicate and we prayed over him and Kenton is close we prayed over him and Kenton is close we prayed over him and Kenton is close to this guy because he's been this guy to this guy because he's been this guy to this guy because he's been this guy in fact when Kenton was hired gosh over in fact when Kenton was hired gosh over in fact when Kenton was hired gosh over 40 years ago now. This guy was part of 40 years ago now. This guy was part of 40 years ago now. This guy was part of the hiring of Kenton. So Kenton came. So the hiring of Kenton. So Kenton came. So the hiring of Kenton. So Kenton came. So on Saturday night, he always is there.

on Saturday night, he always is there. on Saturday night, he always is there. Kinton said, "Hey, I'm going to come Kinton said, "Hey, I'm going to come Kinton said, "Hey, I'm going to come tomorrow." I'm like, "Man, that's tomorrow." I'm like, "Man, that's tomorrow." I'm like, "Man, that's awesome." And we talked about how do you awesome." And we talked about how do you awesome." And we talked about how do you want do you want it to go? Do you want want do you want it to go? Do you want want do you want it to go? Do you want to lead that moment? Cuz I know you're to lead that moment? Cuz I know you're to lead that moment? Cuz I know you're close to this guy. Do you want me to close to this guy. Do you want me to close to this guy. Do you want me to lead that moment? He said, "No, you lead that moment? He said, "No, you lead that moment? He said, "No, you know, I want you to lead." And so I I I know, I want you to lead." And so I I I know, I want you to lead." And so I I I set up the prayer time and then I asked set up the prayer time and then I asked set up the prayer time and then I asked Kinton to close out the prayer time. So Kinton to close out the prayer time. So Kinton to close out the prayer time. So it was a it was seven years later. I it was a it was seven years later. I it was a it was seven years later. I still had this really special prayer still had this really special prayer still had this really special prayer time over this this godly man in our time over this this godly man in our time over this this godly man in our church and his wife and Kitten. I mean, church and his wife and Kitten. I mean, church and his wife and Kitten. I mean, they have decades of history. they have decades of history. they have decades of history. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But both of us together, we shepherded >> But both of us together, we shepherded >> But both of us together, we shepherded that moment, you know, and it was an that moment, you know, and it was an that moment, you know, and it was an honor to shepherd that moment with honor to shepherd that moment with honor to shepherd that moment with Kitten. Kitten. Kitten. >> I get it. And I love what you said about >> I get it. And I love what you said about >> I get it. And I love what you said about you probably have no idea how many ways you probably have no idea how many ways you probably have no idea how many ways he had to die to himself. he had to die to himself. he had to die to himself. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I think that's true. What did you have >> I think that's true. What did you have >> I think that's true. What did you have to do to step into that role that to do to step into that role that to do to step into that role that surprised you as far as the succession surprised you as far as the succession surprised you as far as the succession went? went? went? Yeah, I had an executive coach during my Yeah, I had an executive coach during my Yeah, I had an executive coach during my time at Lifeway and he was concerned uh time at Lifeway and he was concerned uh time at Lifeway and he was concerned uh that I would um that I would um that I would um be able to not lead with a turnaround or be able to not lead with a turnaround or be able to not lead with a turnaround or a startup mentality because at Lifeway I a startup mentality because at Lifeway I a startup mentality because at Lifeway I was often, you know, we're launching the was often, you know, we're launching the was often, you know, we're launching the Christian Standard Bible. I mean, that's Christian Standard Bible. I mean, that's Christian Standard Bible. I mean, that's a startup, right?

a startup, right? a startup, right? >> And a startup posture and leadership is >> And a startup posture and leadership is >> And a startup posture and leadership is you have to move, you have to make you have to move, you have to make you have to move, you have to make decisions, you have to be bold, you have decisions, you have to be bold, you have decisions, you have to be bold, you have to rally people. But when you come into to rally people. But when you come into to rally people. But when you come into if you have that Harvard Business Review if you have that Harvard Business Review if you have that Harvard Business Review book, your first 90 days by Michael book, your first 90 days by Michael book, your first 90 days by Michael Watkins, you know, he's got startup uh Watkins, you know, he's got startup uh Watkins, you know, he's got startup uh realignment, sustained success, realignment, sustained success, realignment, sustained success, turnaround, and like the life cycle of turnaround, and like the life cycle of turnaround, and like the life cycle of an organization essentially. an organization essentially. an organization essentially. Essentially, and if it's a sustained Essentially, and if it's a sustained Essentially, and if it's a sustained success, you don't lead like a startup, success, you don't lead like a startup, success, you don't lead like a startup, you don't lead like a turnaround. You you don't lead like a turnaround. You you don't lead like a turnaround. You listen, you wait, you learn, listen, you wait, you learn, listen, you wait, you learn, >> you be the student. >> you be the student. >> you be the student. >> Yes. That's how that and so if you can't >> Yes. That's how that and so if you can't >> Yes. That's how that and so if you can't in that uh framework by Michael Watkins in that uh framework by Michael Watkins in that uh framework by Michael Watkins it's it's basically everybody's going to it's it's basically everybody's going to it's it's basically everybody's going to eat but there's farmers and hunters and eat but there's farmers and hunters and eat but there's farmers and hunters and a sustained success means you have to a sustained success means you have to a sustained success means you have to farm you have to plant and you have to farm you have to plant and you have to farm you have to plant and you have to wait a season for it to grow a startup wait a season for it to grow a startup wait a season for it to grow a startup and a turnaround you have to go kill and and a turnaround you have to go kill and and a turnaround you have to go kill and eat today right so it's like a different eat today right so it's like a different eat today right so it's like a different posture between a a hunter and a farmer posture between a a hunter and a farmer posture between a a hunter and a farmer it is a great analogy it is a great analogy it is a great analogy >> and so my executive coach was like can >> and so my executive coach was like can >> and so my executive coach was like can you go be a farmer because you've been a you go be a farmer because you've been a you go be a farmer because you've been a hunter hunter hunter >> and I I remember telling Steve Steve >> and I I remember telling Steve Steve >> and I I remember telling Steve Steve Graves. I was like, man, you think I Graves. I was like, man, you think I Graves. I was like, man, you think I want to always be a hunter? I would I I want to always be a hunter? I would I I want to always be a hunter? I would I I love the idea of farming. So, coming in love the idea of farming. So, coming in love the idea of farming. So, coming in to to Mariners at the first to to Mariners at the first to to Mariners at the first really before CO, I just viewed myself really before CO, I just viewed myself really before CO, I just viewed myself as I'm going to do the best I can to as I'm going to do the best I can to as I'm going to do the best I can to preach great sermons on the weekend. I'm preach great sermons on the weekend. I'm preach great sermons on the weekend. I'm going to learn Southern California. I'm going to learn Southern California. I'm going to learn Southern California. I'm going to love the people. I'm going to going to love the people. I'm going to going to love the people. I'm going to run the playbook as as the playbook was.

run the playbook as as the playbook was. run the playbook as as the playbook was. I'm not going to come and introduce new I'm not going to come and introduce new I'm not going to come and introduce new values or a new mission statement. I'm values or a new mission statement. I'm values or a new mission statement. I'm just going to run the playbook. And then just going to run the playbook. And then just going to run the playbook. And then over time over time over time as God directs and I'll make I'll make as God directs and I'll make I'll make as God directs and I'll make I'll make tweaks and changes along the way. tweaks and changes along the way. tweaks and changes along the way. >> Co sped that up. >> Co sped that up. >> Co sped that up. >> Co co sped that up. >> Co co sped that up. >> Co co sped that up. >> It's not business as usual. >> It's not business as usual. >> It's not business as usual. >> Yeah. Co CO caused me to have to lead >> Yeah. Co CO caused me to have to lead >> Yeah. Co CO caused me to have to lead back in in startup mode because back in in startup mode because back in in startup mode because everything was shut down. Then you're everything was shut down. Then you're everything was shut down. Then you're starting back. starting back. starting back. >> Yeah. And you were shut down a long time >> Yeah. And you were shut down a long time >> Yeah. And you were shut down a long time here. here. here. >> We we actually started in the summer. >> We we actually started in the summer. >> We we actually started in the summer. >> Oh, you did? >> Oh, you did? >> Oh, you did? >> But we had we have outside. >> But we had we have outside. >> But we had we have outside. >> Yeah, that helps. >> Yeah, that helps. >> Yeah, that helps. >> We have outside. >> We have outside. >> We have outside. >> Yeah. Southern California. There's very >> Yeah. Southern California. There's very >> Yeah. Southern California. There's very few regions of the country where you can few regions of the country where you can few regions of the country where you can do that. But way to go. Way to go. Yeah. do that. But way to go. Way to go. Yeah. do that. But way to go. Way to go. Yeah. And you had outside worship. And you had outside worship. And you had outside worship. >> We did for a long time. And we started >> We did for a long time. And we started >> We did for a long time. And we started we started six mariners in the we started six mariners in the we started six mariners in the neighborhood that then became neighborhood that then became neighborhood that then became congregations. congregations. congregations. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> So we went into CO with two >> So we went into CO with two >> So we went into CO with two congregations. We came out of CO with congregations. We came out of CO with congregations. We came out of CO with seven congregations. So we launched five seven congregations. So we launched five seven congregations. So we launched five during CO. What when you look back over during CO. What when you look back over during CO. What when you look back over the last seven years, what have been the last seven years, what have been the last seven years, what have been some of the most some of the most some of the most maybe in hindsight or maybe you knew at maybe in hindsight or maybe you knew at maybe in hindsight or maybe you knew at the time strategic decisions you made the time strategic decisions you made the time strategic decisions you made that have helped it go this well?

that have helped it go this well? that have helped it go this well? Because it's a success upon success Because it's a success upon success Because it's a success upon success story. It's a growth upon growth story. story. It's a growth upon growth story. story. It's a growth upon growth story. It's uh yeah like this has gone It's uh yeah like this has gone It's uh yeah like this has gone exceedingly well at least from the exceedingly well at least from the exceedingly well at least from the outside looking in. So what have been outside looking in. So what have been outside looking in. So what have been some strategic decisions you made that some strategic decisions you made that some strategic decisions you made that yeah at the time or in retrospect turned yeah at the time or in retrospect turned yeah at the time or in retrospect turned out to be good ones out to be good ones out to be good ones >> during co launching mariners in the >> during co launching mariners in the >> during co launching mariners in the neighborhood and then neighborhood and then neighborhood and then turning those into new congregations turning those into new congregations turning those into new congregations really turned out to be a great really turned out to be a great really turned out to be a great strategic decision. It it we bent the strategic decision. It it we bent the strategic decision. It it we bent the resources of the organization towards resources of the organization towards resources of the organization towards multiplication. So by launching those it multiplication. So by launching those it multiplication. So by launching those it it changed how we spend it changed how it changed how we spend it changed how it changed how we spend it changed how we spend our time that and multiplying we spend our time that and multiplying we spend our time that and multiplying has been really fruitful in Southern has been really fruitful in Southern has been really fruitful in Southern California. California. California. >> That that's big. Um a strategic decision >> That that's big. Um a strategic decision >> That that's big. Um a strategic decision to invest a lot in young adults has been to invest a lot in young adults has been to invest a lot in young adults has been very fruitful. So, we have a a Thursday very fruitful. So, we have a a Thursday very fruitful. So, we have a a Thursday night service for young adults that we night service for young adults that we night service for young adults that we have over 2,000 young adults show up have over 2,000 young adults show up have over 2,000 young adults show up every Thursday night and it's um every Thursday night and it's um every Thursday night and it's um >> I I teach at >> I I teach at >> I I teach at >> What was the impetus behind that?

>> What was the impetus behind that? >> What was the impetus behind that? >> I love it so much. It was >> I love it so much. It was >> I love it so much. It was Gosh, man. It started it was a several Gosh, man. It started it was a several Gosh, man. It started it was a several year journey with the Lord and this is year journey with the Lord and this is year journey with the Lord and this is one where I know he just gave me a one where I know he just gave me a one where I know he just gave me a burden for that community and that burden for that community and that burden for that community and that generation in in Israel. We we took a generation in in Israel. We we took a generation in in Israel. We we took a bunch of people from our church to bunch of people from our church to bunch of people from our church to Israel and Kitten actually led this Israel and Kitten actually led this Israel and Kitten actually led this experience. Kent and I did that trip experience. Kent and I did that trip experience. Kent and I did that trip together together together >> where at Gideon Springs you receive you >> where at Gideon Springs you receive you >> where at Gideon Springs you receive you spend time with the Lord and you ask him spend time with the Lord and you ask him spend time with the Lord and you ask him to give to give you a name. Uh it's a to give to give you a name. Uh it's a to give to give you a name. Uh it's a Ken's like an experiential learner and Ken's like an experiential learner and Ken's like an experiential learner and it was really it was really sacred it was really it was really sacred it was really it was really sacred moment and my it it doesn't have to be moment and my it it doesn't have to be moment and my it it doesn't have to be your name forever but like a sense of your name forever but like a sense of your name forever but like a sense of what you're what's going to be part of what you're what's going to be part of what you're what's going to be part of your identity coming out of this time your identity coming out of this time your identity coming out of this time with God. And I believe that this next with God. And I believe that this next with God. And I believe that this next season I was going to be a wise season I was going to be a wise season I was going to be a wise shepherd. shepherd. shepherd. >> And I remember the the guys I were with >> And I remember the the guys I were with >> And I remember the the guys I were with were like come on man you got to have go were like come on man you got to have go were like come on man you got to have go bigger than that you know like change bigger than that you know like change bigger than that you know like change the world stuff. I'm like man I I just the world stuff. I'm like man I I just the world stuff. I'm like man I I just want to be a wise shepherd. And I want to be a wise shepherd. And I want to be a wise shepherd. And I started seeing a lot of young adults in started seeing a lot of young adults in started seeing a lot of young adults in our church say things to me which felt our church say things to me which felt our church say things to me which felt um at this time really I wasn't prepared um at this time really I wasn't prepared um at this time really I wasn't prepared for it. It's so it took me that's why it for it. It's so it took me that's why it for it. It's so it took me that's why it took several years like that was the sex took several years like that was the sex took several years like that was the sex talk that my dad never gave me or talk that my dad never gave me or talk that my dad never gave me or >> I mean Eric's like a father to me. I >> I mean Eric's like a father to me. I >> I mean Eric's like a father to me. I still I did not I always thought I was still I did not I always thought I was still I did not I always thought I was like the older brother.

like the older brother. like the older brother. >> I I hadn't gone into dad mode, you know, >> I I hadn't gone into dad mode, you know, >> I I hadn't gone into dad mode, you know, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And the more I was hearing that truly >> And the more I was hearing that truly >> And the more I was hearing that truly the church was speaking that over me. I the church was speaking that over me. I the church was speaking that over me. I I had been leading a life a high school I had been leading a life a high school I had been leading a life a high school guys life group for four years. So I had guys life group for four years. So I had guys life group for four years. So I had been a father figure to a lot of these been a father figure to a lot of these been a father figure to a lot of these guys. I met with them weekly for four guys. I met with them weekly for four guys. I met with them weekly for four years and they graduated. And so my years and they graduated. And so my years and they graduated. And so my heart really for that generation just heart really for that generation just heart really for that generation just kept expanding. So I called our young kept expanding. So I called our young kept expanding. So I called our young adult pastor uh who's awesome and we had adult pastor uh who's awesome and we had adult pastor uh who's awesome and we had just had a whole bunch of young adult just had a whole bunch of young adult just had a whole bunch of young adult groups. We didn't have a a weekly groups. We didn't have a a weekly groups. We didn't have a a weekly worship service and we just talked about worship service and we just talked about worship service and we just talked about making it the first um the first service making it the first um the first service making it the first um the first service of the weekend. So Thursday night would of the weekend. So Thursday night would of the weekend. So Thursday night would be the first service of the weekend, but be the first service of the weekend, but be the first service of the weekend, but it would be for young adults and so we it would be for young adults and so we it would be for young adults and so we did that 18 we launched 18 months ago did that 18 we launched 18 months ago did that 18 we launched 18 months ago and it's just been and it's just been and it's just been >> it's been really sacred and beautiful. >> it's been really sacred and beautiful. >> it's been really sacred and beautiful. >> What's different about it except the >> What's different about it except the >> What's different about it except the people who are in the room? people who are in the room? people who are in the room? >> Yeah, it's a great question. We get >> Yeah, it's a great question. We get >> Yeah, it's a great question. We get asked that a lot. um asked that a lot. um asked that a lot. um my message because there's not I mean my message because there's not I mean my message because there's not I mean you know if you I know you've seen this you know if you I know you've seen this you know if you I know you've seen this a lot when on a Sunday here we have 8:30 a lot when on a Sunday here we have 8:30 a lot when on a Sunday here we have 8:30 10 11:30 I got to be really tight on my 10 11:30 I got to be really tight on my 10 11:30 I got to be really tight on my sermon sermon sermon >> because we got to get the people out of >> because we got to get the people out of >> because we got to get the people out of that service and people into this next that service and people into this next that service and people into this next service Thursday night there's nothing service Thursday night there's nothing service Thursday night there's nothing so I'm extra after right there's no so I'm extra after right there's no so I'm extra after right there's no other service other service other service >> so I might go an extra five six minutes >> so I might go an extra five six minutes >> so I might go an extra five six minutes I don't even know each week what it will I don't even know each week what it will I don't even know each week what it will be but it's for sure I'm talking to the be but it's for sure I'm talking to the be but it's for sure I'm talking to the young adult I'm applying and something young adult I'm applying and something young adult I'm applying and something to the young adult.

to the young adult. to the young adult. >> So, same message, but different stories, >> So, same message, but different stories, >> So, same message, but different stories, different angle. different angle. different angle. >> Not different story as much as maybe >> Not different story as much as maybe >> Not different story as much as maybe some different application or I may just some different application or I may just some different application or I may just double down on something and really go double down on something and really go double down on something and really go after the heart of a young adult. after the heart of a young adult. after the heart of a young adult. >> And then we all we also have extra >> And then we all we also have extra >> And then we all we also have extra worship and prayer at the end of worship and prayer at the end of worship and prayer at the end of >> so the the sermon the the the service >> so the the sermon the the the service >> so the the sermon the the the service goes about an hour and a half while our goes about an hour and a half while our goes about an hour and a half while our weekend services go an hour and 5 to 10 weekend services go an hour and 5 to 10 weekend services go an hour and 5 to 10 minutes. So, it's an extra 20 minutes. minutes. So, it's an extra 20 minutes. minutes. So, it's an extra 20 minutes. We have people come forward for prayer We have people come forward for prayer We have people come forward for prayer every week. It's very um it's very much every week. It's very um it's very much every week. It's very um it's very much a worship environment that after the a worship environment that after the a worship environment that after the message, not just before. message, not just before. message, not just before. >> Do you see it as disciplehip, >> Do you see it as disciplehip, >> Do you see it as disciplehip, evangelism, both? evangelism, both? evangelism, both? >> Both. Totally both. >> Both. Totally both. >> Both. Totally both. >> So, people are inviting their friends. >> So, people are inviting their friends. >> So, people are inviting their friends. >> Yeah. And and we're we're seeing people >> Yeah. And and we're we're seeing people >> Yeah. And and we're we're seeing people confess faith in Jesus and become his. confess faith in Jesus and become his. confess faith in Jesus and become his. But But But >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> I mean, we also see a bunch of people >> I mean, we also see a bunch of people >> I mean, we also see a bunch of people with their Bibles and pins and digging with their Bibles and pins and digging with their Bibles and pins and digging in. It's so fun. So, just a question so in. It's so fun. So, just a question so in. It's so fun. So, just a question so this doesn't end up in the comments. this doesn't end up in the comments. this doesn't end up in the comments. What's the cut off for young adults? What's the cut off for young adults? What's the cut off for young adults? Like, yeah, the 47year-old who's like, Like, yeah, the 47year-old who's like, Like, yeah, the 47year-old who's like, "Yeah, I am a young adult." The "Yeah, I am a young adult." The "Yeah, I am a young adult." The >> 47 should not be here.

>> 47 should not be here. >> 47 should not be here. >> Should not be here. All right. You >> Should not be here. All right. You >> Should not be here. All right. You announce that from the front. You, sir. announce that from the front. You, sir. announce that from the front. You, sir. >> You know, I come back Sunday. At first, >> You know, I come back Sunday. At first, >> You know, I come back Sunday. At first, I I started making fun of it a little I I started making fun of it a little I I started making fun of it a little bit because sometimes in Southern bit because sometimes in Southern bit because sometimes in Southern California, you'll have the 47year-old California, you'll have the 47year-old California, you'll have the 47year-old who who thinks the 32-year-old who who thinks the 32-year-old who who thinks the 32-year-old wants him, you know, and and maybe maybe wants him, you know, and and maybe maybe wants him, you know, and and maybe maybe maybe so, but this is not the place to maybe so, but this is not the place to maybe so, but this is not the place to meet, meet, meet, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And so, I would say, hey, if you if um >> And so, I would say, hey, if you if um >> And so, I would say, hey, if you if um some of you young adults are here and some of you young adults are here and some of you young adults are here and you you notice that there's some older you you notice that there's some older you you notice that there's some older people, well, they have name badges on people, well, they have name badges on people, well, they have name badges on because they're on our prayer team. because they're on our prayer team. because they're on our prayer team. there are are shephering elders who are there are are shephering elders who are there are are shephering elders who are ready available to pray for you and if ready available to pray for you and if ready available to pray for you and if they don't it means they snuck in and they don't it means they snuck in and they don't it means they snuck in and and they haven't yet realized that this and they haven't yet realized that this and they haven't yet realized that this service is not for them. service is not for them. service is not for them. >> So you kind of announced it without >> So you kind of announced it without >> So you kind of announced it without announcing it. announcing it. announcing it. >> We we we uh we were we didn't at first >> We we we uh we were we didn't at first >> We we we uh we were we didn't at first and then we had to and then for a little and then we had to and then for a little and then we had to and then for a little bit I did and then it's not like that bit I did and then it's not like that bit I did and then it's not like that anymore. anymore. anymore. >> In your mind, what's the age range for >> In your mind, what's the age range for >> In your mind, what's the age range for that? that? that? >> Uh 20s and 30s. >> Uh 20s and 30s. >> Uh 20s and 30s. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So once you hit 39, thanks. Happy >> So once you hit 39, thanks. Happy >> So once you hit 39, thanks. Happy graduation. It's It's probably more my graduation. It's It's probably more my graduation. It's It's probably more my but my guess is the average is like 24 but my guess is the average is like 24 but my guess is the average is like 24 to 34.

to 34. to 34. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Like that's probably the >> Like that's probably the >> Like that's probably the >> So, have you seen that group disappear >> So, have you seen that group disappear >> So, have you seen that group disappear from the Sunday services? from the Sunday services? from the Sunday services? >> That was the fear. I >> That was the fear. I >> That was the fear. I >> Okay. Yeah. What do we see? >> Okay. Yeah. What do we see? >> Okay. Yeah. What do we see? >> So, the first Thursday night was killer >> So, the first Thursday night was killer >> So, the first Thursday night was killer and I was like, "Oh my gosh, is Sunday and I was like, "Oh my gosh, is Sunday and I was like, "Oh my gosh, is Sunday gonna going to feel like just really gonna going to feel like just really gonna going to feel like just really old?" old?" old?" >> One service with eight people in their >> One service with eight people in their >> One service with eight people in their 80s. Yeah. And no, it's No, it did. In 80s. Yeah. And no, it's No, it did. In 80s. Yeah. And no, it's No, it did. In fact, it doesn't feel like there's been fact, it doesn't feel like there's been fact, it doesn't feel like there's been a a a I think that we still have some a a a I think that we still have some a a a I think that we still have some young adults that prefer Saturday or young adults that prefer Saturday or young adults that prefer Saturday or Sunday, you know. So, it's like a Sunday, you know. So, it's like a Sunday, you know. So, it's like a different crew. different crew. different crew. >> Okay. So, it's just different crew on >> Okay. So, it's just different crew on >> Okay. So, it's just different crew on the weekend. the weekend. the weekend. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so, it's more a question not of >> And so, it's more a question not of >> And so, it's more a question not of subtraction but of addition subtraction but of addition subtraction but of addition >> thankfully >> thankfully >> thankfully >> cuz I was concerned that I Here's the >> cuz I was concerned that I Here's the >> cuz I was concerned that I Here's the another reason we we started it because another reason we we started it because another reason we we started it because we have so many services. we have so many services. we have so many services. >> So, we we have this service at Mariners >> So, we we have this service at Mariners >> So, we we have this service at Mariners Irvine and on Saturday we have two, Irvine and on Saturday we have two, Irvine and on Saturday we have two, Sunday we have three. I would I would Sunday we have three. I would I would Sunday we have three. I would I would hear young adults say, "I know there's hear young adults say, "I know there's hear young adults say, "I know there's young adults at Mariners. I just never young adults at Mariners. I just never young adults at Mariners. I just never meet them. I don't know which service to meet them. I don't know which service to meet them. I don't know which service to go to. There's five services." And so by go to. There's five services." And so by go to. There's five services." And so by by starting a sick service by starting a sick service by starting a sick service um where young adults know I can go and um where young adults know I can go and um where young adults know I can go and find people in my community, my age find people in my community, my age find people in my community, my age range, same stage of life has been good.

range, same stage of life has been good. range, same stage of life has been good. This episode is brought to you by the This episode is brought to you by the This episode is brought to you by the art of leadership academy. Hey, one of art of leadership academy. Hey, one of art of leadership academy. Hey, one of the things Eric reminded us of is that the things Eric reminded us of is that the things Eric reminded us of is that complexity never scales, right? And complexity never scales, right? And complexity never scales, right? And often the hardest part of leadership is often the hardest part of leadership is often the hardest part of leadership is to make the tough calls to keep things to make the tough calls to keep things to make the tough calls to keep things simple. Well, that's exactly what many simple. Well, that's exactly what many simple. Well, that's exactly what many of the resources in my art of leadership of the resources in my art of leadership of the resources in my art of leadership academy can help you do. Instead of academy can help you do. Instead of academy can help you do. Instead of feeling lost in decisions and the feeling lost in decisions and the feeling lost in decisions and the minutia, you get proven strategies, minutia, you get proven strategies, minutia, you get proven strategies, insights, and tools that help you truly insights, and tools that help you truly insights, and tools that help you truly move your mission forward. From move your mission forward. From move your mission forward. From preaching sermons people remember and preaching sermons people remember and preaching sermons people remember and want to hear to leading an aligned and want to hear to leading an aligned and want to hear to leading an aligned and motivated team and from growing your motivated team and from growing your motivated team and from growing your church without burning out to even church without burning out to even church without burning out to even navigating change with confidence, navigating change with confidence, navigating change with confidence, you'll get what you need to cut through you'll get what you need to cut through you'll get what you need to cut through the complexity, align your team, and the complexity, align your team, and the complexity, align your team, and lead with clarity. Put it into practice lead with clarity. Put it into practice lead with clarity. Put it into practice and join over 11,000 leaders today and join over 11,000 leaders today and join over 11,000 leaders today inside the Art of Leadership Academy by inside the Art of Leadership Academy by inside the Art of Leadership Academy by creating a free account to get started creating a free account to get started creating a free account to get started or an all access membership to fasttrack or an all access membership to fasttrack or an all access membership to fasttrack your growth. Simply go to the your growth. Simply go to the your growth. Simply go to the arttoofleershipacademy.com arttoofleershipacademy.com arttoofleershipacademy.com or click the link in the description of or click the link in the description of or click the link in the description of this episode wherever you're listening.

this episode wherever you're listening. this episode wherever you're listening. See, do that. You're in the community. See, do that. You're in the community. See, do that. You're in the community. >> I've had Noah Heron on the podcast. He >> I've had Noah Heron on the podcast. He >> I've had Noah Heron on the podcast. He has way church in Nashville. He says the has way church in Nashville. He says the has way church in Nashville. He says the main thing is people are looking for main thing is people are looking for main thing is people are looking for belonging. They're really looking for belonging. They're really looking for belonging. They're really looking for connection. And in the process, you connection. And in the process, you connection. And in the process, you introduce him to Jesus, etc., etc. Do introduce him to Jesus, etc., etc. Do introduce him to Jesus, etc., etc. Do you find the same thing in California you find the same thing in California you find the same thing in California that people are hungrying for that people are hungrying for that people are hungrying for >> people are totally hung hungry for >> people are totally hung hungry for >> people are totally hung hungry for community? For sure. Absolutely. What community? For sure. Absolutely. What community? For sure. Absolutely. What are you learning about communicating to are you learning about communicating to are you learning about communicating to the next generation other than Yeah, I the next generation other than Yeah, I the next generation other than Yeah, I got to change the application. Maybe the got to change the application. Maybe the got to change the application. Maybe the emphasis is a little bit different. Are emphasis is a little bit different. Are emphasis is a little bit different. Are you finding that there are certain you finding that there are certain you finding that there are certain things that like go back a decade in things that like go back a decade in things that like go back a decade in your preaching? Yeah. your preaching? Yeah. your preaching? Yeah. >> Because you've been preaching for years. >> Because you've been preaching for years. >> Because you've been preaching for years. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Are there things you used to do that you >> Are there things you used to do that you >> Are there things you used to do that you don't do anymore? Things that you've don't do anymore? Things that you've don't do anymore? Things that you've started doing that you never used to do. started doing that you never used to do. started doing that you never used to do. What are some of the changes to meet What are some of the changes to meet What are some of the changes to meet this cultural moment? this cultural moment? this cultural moment? >> I I I think some of the things that I I >> I I I think some of the things that I I >> I I I think some of the things that I I don't think I've changed much. don't think I've changed much. don't think I've changed much. >> Yeah. I think I might be doubling down >> Yeah. I think I might be doubling down >> Yeah. I think I might be doubling down more on some things. Okay. Um more on some things. Okay. Um more on some things. Okay. Um >> I I do believe that the young adult >> I I do believe that the young adult >> I I do believe that the young adult generation is more fatigued now with the generation is more fatigued now with the generation is more fatigued now with the disappointment of the world than any disappointment of the world than any disappointment of the world than any other generation that that and I'm only other generation that that and I'm only other generation that that and I'm only I'm about to hit 50. So I've been doing I'm about to hit 50. So I've been doing I'm about to hit 50. So I've been doing this forever, but this current moment this forever, but this current moment this forever, but this current moment feels like there's more awareness that a feels like there's more awareness that a feels like there's more awareness that a lot of the things lot of the things lot of the things I mean so the iPhone came out in ' 07, I mean so the iPhone came out in ' 07, I mean so the iPhone came out in ' 07, right? So most a lot of the young adults right? So most a lot of the young adults right? So most a lot of the young adults grew up with that and then they now grew up with that and then they now grew up with that and then they now realize they know they're not they know realize they know they're not they know realize they know they're not they know I was experimented on. I was an I was experimented on. I was an I was experimented on. I was an experiment.

experiment. experiment. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> When I was in fourth grade I got this >> When I was in fourth grade I got this >> When I was in fourth grade I got this thing and it wasn't good. thing and it wasn't good. thing and it wasn't good. >> And so they they they now have a bit of >> And so they they they now have a bit of >> And so they they they now have a bit of not just cynicism. It's more than that. not just cynicism. It's more than that. not just cynicism. It's more than that. It's deeper than that. It's um It's deeper than that. It's um It's deeper than that. It's um some of the things I've heard in this some of the things I've heard in this some of the things I've heard in this life are bad for me. And so I I think life are bad for me. And so I I think life are bad for me. And so I I think they appreciate some raw honesty about they appreciate some raw honesty about they appreciate some raw honesty about that. A sense almost like a bit of grit that. A sense almost like a bit of grit that. A sense almost like a bit of grit towards that and then showing how the towards that and then showing how the towards that and then showing how the way of Jesus is is refreshing. way of Jesus is is refreshing. way of Jesus is is refreshing. Everything in this world's been Everything in this world's been Everything in this world's been exhausting, but he invites you to rest. exhausting, but he invites you to rest. exhausting, but he invites you to rest. So I I think I always had that in my So I I think I always had that in my So I I think I always had that in my sermon, but perhaps it's just a little sermon, but perhaps it's just a little sermon, but perhaps it's just a little bit more expressed now because the bit more expressed now because the bit more expressed now because the generation is so tired. I don't want to generation is so tired. I don't want to generation is so tired. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it feels to put words in your mouth, but it feels to put words in your mouth, but it feels to me in this moment like a decade ago, 15 me in this moment like a decade ago, 15 me in this moment like a decade ago, 15 years ago, you had to work harder to years ago, you had to work harder to years ago, you had to work harder to show that the world was bankrupt because show that the world was bankrupt because show that the world was bankrupt because it still had a shine on the apple. it still had a shine on the apple. it still had a shine on the apple. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And now you don't have to work as hard >> And now you don't have to work as hard >> And now you don't have to work as hard to show that the world is bankrupt. to show that the world is bankrupt. to show that the world is bankrupt. >> I that for some people for sure, right? >> I that for some people for sure, right? >> I that for some people for sure, right? And now in in Southern California that And now in in Southern California that And now in in Southern California that one of the struggles I have is helping one of the struggles I have is helping one of the struggles I have is helping people realize they're bankrupt.

people realize they're bankrupt. people realize they're bankrupt. >> Okay. It's still >> Okay. It's still >> Okay. It's still >> but in young adult population more more >> but in young adult population more more >> but in young adult population more more aware of it. So the parents are not aware of it. So the parents are not aware of it. So the parents are not aware of it but the kids aware of it but the kids aware of it but the kids >> not as much as a whole not as much as a >> not as much as a whole not as much as a >> not as much as a whole not as much as a whole. I mean Southern California is whole. I mean Southern California is whole. I mean Southern California is very affluent you know and it's very affluent you know and it's very affluent you know and it's >> it's working for you >> it's working for you >> it's working for you >> and and there's a lot of entrepreneurs >> and and there's a lot of entrepreneurs >> and and there's a lot of entrepreneurs and been able to achieve things and make and been able to achieve things and make and been able to achieve things and make things happen. Um to help them the idol things happen. Um to help them the idol things happen. Um to help them the idol that that you we have to constantly tear that that you we have to constantly tear that that you we have to constantly tear down in Southern California is down in Southern California is down in Southern California is achievement. Mhm. achievement. Mhm. achievement. Mhm. >> And the way I try to do that is you have >> And the way I try to do that is you have >> And the way I try to do that is you have achieved and it's not been enough for achieved and it's not been enough for achieved and it's not been enough for you. you. you. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> It hasn't been enough. >> It hasn't been enough. >> It hasn't been enough. >> Do you really think the next the next >> Do you really think the next the next >> Do you really think the next the next business you flip is going to be enough? business you flip is going to be enough? business you flip is going to be enough? You know, it's not going to be enough, You know, it's not going to be enough, You know, it's not going to be enough, but there is real rest. So, it's it's but there is real rest. So, it's it's but there is real rest. So, it's it's throwing down it's it's throwing down throwing down it's it's throwing down throwing down it's it's throwing down the cultural idol. the cultural idol. the cultural idol. >> It's a little Kelleresque what he was >> It's a little Kelleresque what he was >> It's a little Kelleresque what he was doing in New York City. doing in New York City. doing in New York City. >> Yes. He was very helpful >> Yes. He was very helpful >> Yes. He was very helpful >> like pointing out the false gods and >> like pointing out the false gods and >> like pointing out the false gods and >> I think Keller's thinking on assessing >> I think Keller's thinking on assessing >> I think Keller's thinking on assessing the idols in a culture are is very the idols in a culture are is very the idols in a culture are is very helpful. Miami when I was there I think helpful. Miami when I was there I think helpful. Miami when I was there I think the idol more than success was like the idol more than success was like the idol more than success was like pleasure pleasure pleasure >> right. Yeah.

>> right. Yeah. >> right. Yeah. >> And so like hey you keep chasing >> And so like hey you keep chasing >> And so like hey you keep chasing pleasure when I would preach in Miami pleasure when I would preach in Miami pleasure when I would preach in Miami but you keep waking up not really but you keep waking up not really but you keep waking up not really satisfied. satisfied. satisfied. Southern California and this is maybe a Southern California and this is maybe a Southern California and this is maybe a generalization but I I'm not I don't see generalization but I I'm not I don't see generalization but I I'm not I don't see it as much as pleasure as much as it's it as much as pleasure as much as it's it as much as pleasure as much as it's accomplishment. Now people find pleasure accomplishment. Now people find pleasure accomplishment. Now people find pleasure in the accomplishment and they can chase in the accomplishment and they can chase in the accomplishment and they can chase pleasure because of the accomplishment pleasure because of the accomplishment pleasure because of the accomplishment but it's like but it's like but it's like >> I I win I won you know >> I I win I won you know >> I I win I won you know >> got the house got the career got the >> got the house got the career got the >> got the house got the career got the promotion sold to private equity y promotion sold to private equity y promotion sold to private equity y >> you know landed the part in Hollywood >> you know landed the part in Hollywood >> you know landed the part in Hollywood whatever. whatever. whatever. >> Yes. All different all different >> Yes. All different all different >> Yes. All different all different disciplines has a a form of winning. disciplines has a a form of winning. disciplines has a a form of winning. >> Wow. What was the idol in Nashville? >> Wow. What was the idol in Nashville? >> Wow. What was the idol in Nashville? See, in Nashville, I I um I I did less See, in Nashville, I I um I I did less See, in Nashville, I I um I I did less cultural analysis in Nashville. cultural analysis in Nashville. cultural analysis in Nashville. >> You're doing national analysis >> You're doing national analysis >> You're doing national analysis >> because Yeah, I was doing national >> because Yeah, I was doing national >> because Yeah, I was doing national analysis. And that honestly was bad for analysis. And that honestly was bad for analysis. And that honestly was bad for my heart. Um it when we moved out here, my heart. Um it when we moved out here, my heart. Um it when we moved out here, I didn't want to repeat Nashville. I did I didn't want to repeat Nashville. I did I didn't want to repeat Nashville. I did I never my seven years I never my seven years I never my seven years cried for Nashville. When I was in cried for Nashville. When I was in cried for Nashville. When I was in Miami, I used to I used to cry over Miami, I used to I used to cry over Miami, I used to I used to cry over Miami.

Miami. Miami. >> Southern California, I I'll I mean I'll >> Southern California, I I'll I mean I'll >> Southern California, I I'll I mean I'll I'll cry. I'll cry. I'll cry. like Spurgeon would talk about. I mean, like Spurgeon would talk about. I mean, like Spurgeon would talk about. I mean, unless you weep for the souls of people, unless you weep for the souls of people, unless you weep for the souls of people, you can't lead them to Jesus. Um, and I you can't lead them to Jesus. Um, and I you can't lead them to Jesus. Um, and I don't I didn't love Nashville like I don't I didn't love Nashville like I don't I didn't love Nashville like I should have loved Nashville. should have loved Nashville. should have loved Nashville. >> I I was not the best Christian. I loved >> I I was not the best Christian. I loved >> I I was not the best Christian. I loved Jesus. I followed Jesus, but I didn't Jesus. I followed Jesus, but I didn't Jesus. I followed Jesus, but I didn't live on mission the same way. And and my live on mission the same way. And and my live on mission the same way. And and my role made me think nationally more than role made me think nationally more than role made me think nationally more than I thought locally, I thought locally, I thought locally, >> you know, and so I I missed the burden >> you know, and so I I missed the burden >> you know, and so I I missed the burden for a city, for a city, for a city, >> you know. It's sort of a new thought >> you know. It's sort of a new thought >> you know. It's sort of a new thought just saying, you know, Miami versus just saying, you know, Miami versus just saying, you know, Miami versus SoCal. Um, you know, you see in the Old SoCal. Um, you know, you see in the Old SoCal. Um, you know, you see in the Old Testament, New Testament, there are all Testament, New Testament, there are all Testament, New Testament, there are all kinds of gods, small G gods everywhere. kinds of gods, small G gods everywhere. kinds of gods, small G gods everywhere. Haven't really thought about that. Like Haven't really thought about that. Like Haven't really thought about that. Like Seattle probably has a different god Seattle probably has a different god Seattle probably has a different god than Southern California, which has a than Southern California, which has a than Southern California, which has a different god than Detroit. Yeah. different god than Detroit. Yeah. different god than Detroit. Yeah. >> And it's really important for a local >> And it's really important for a local >> And it's really important for a local preacher to exedute the culture. I preacher to exedute the culture. I preacher to exedute the culture. I agree. agree. agree. >> And figure out what that god is. And and >> And figure out what that god is. And and >> And figure out what that god is. And and I mean there's probably some I mean there's probably some I mean there's probably some similarities and there's probably some similarities and there's probably some similarities and there's probably some that transcend in western culture, but I that transcend in western culture, but I that transcend in western culture, but I 100% agree with you for to exed your 100% agree with you for to exed your 100% agree with you for to exed your local cultures helpful. I local cultures helpful. I local cultures helpful. I >> I feel like I want to ask this question, >> I feel like I want to ask this question, >> I feel like I want to ask this question, but you know, there's been a a mass exit but you know, there's been a a mass exit but you know, there's been a a mass exit particularly two or three years ago from particularly two or three years ago from particularly two or three years ago from Southern California by Christians, Southern California by Christians, Southern California by Christians, right? Lots of lots of well-known right? Lots of lots of well-known right? Lots of lots of well-known preachers leaving. Uh lots of Christians preachers leaving. Uh lots of Christians preachers leaving. Uh lots of Christians fleeing fleeing fleeing >> the state. You've stayed.

>> the state. You've stayed. >> the state. You've stayed. >> I love it here so much. Tell me why. >> I love it here so much. Tell me why. >> I love it here so much. Tell me why. >> I love the people first. I mean, I love >> I love the people first. I mean, I love >> I love the people first. I mean, I love the people. K and I have loved raising the people. K and I have loved raising the people. K and I have loved raising our daughters here. Um, and then our daughters here. Um, and then our daughters here. Um, and then practically, I mean, my dad when he was practically, I mean, my dad when he was practically, I mean, my dad when he was alive, he, you know, he he he would alive, he, you know, he he he would alive, he, you know, he he he would complain about the paper straws, you complain about the paper straws, you complain about the paper straws, you know, like he doesn't like the paper know, like he doesn't like the paper know, like he doesn't like the paper straws. And I'd be like, "Dad, but look straws. And I'd be like, "Dad, but look straws. And I'd be like, "Dad, but look at this view." You know, like we'd go, at this view." You know, like we'd go, at this view." You know, like we'd go, my dad and I would go biking together. my dad and I would go biking together. my dad and I would go biking together. I'm like, "Come on, you can handle a I'm like, "Come on, you can handle a I'm like, "Come on, you can handle a paper straw for this." You know? Um but paper straw for this." You know? Um but paper straw for this." You know? Um but but some people, especially during co um but some people, especially during co um but some people, especially during co um California was really frustrating for California was really frustrating for California was really frustrating for some people and I understand why. I mean some people and I understand why. I mean some people and I understand why. I mean the rules were constantly changing. They the rules were constantly changing. They the rules were constantly changing. They they had neighbors that had moved that they had neighbors that had moved that they had neighbors that had moved that were much more free to do things in in were much more free to do things in in were much more free to do things in in other states. Um and so there was a lot other states. Um and so there was a lot other states. Um and so there was a lot of frustration. If there if someone was of frustration. If there if someone was of frustration. If there if someone was was frustrated before CO, then CO uh was frustrated before CO, then CO uh was frustrated before CO, then CO uh just really ramped up the the just really ramped up the the just really ramped up the the frustration. You know, I um you know, I frustration. You know, I um you know, I frustration. You know, I um you know, I I I I we know this. We we need Christians we know this. We we need Christians we know this. We we need Christians everywhere.

everywhere. everywhere. >> Yeah, we do. >> Yeah, we do. >> Yeah, we do. >> And and we we need you need light where >> And and we we need you need light where >> And and we we need you need light where where there's darkness. You need salt in where there's darkness. You need salt in where there's darkness. You need salt in all spheres of life. And surely we don't all spheres of life. And surely we don't all spheres of life. And surely we don't want all the Christians to leave want all the Christians to leave want all the Christians to leave California. California. California. >> Right. Right. Right. You know, and there >> Right. Right. Right. You know, and there >> Right. Right. Right. You know, and there are a lot of thriving churches in are a lot of thriving churches in are a lot of thriving churches in California across California, north to California across California, north to California across California, north to south. Yes. south. Yes. south. Yes. >> I'm here quite a bit and amazed to see >> I'm here quite a bit and amazed to see >> I'm here quite a bit and amazed to see the vibrancy. Southern California has an the vibrancy. Southern California has an the vibrancy. Southern California has an amazing faith history. There's movements amazing faith history. There's movements amazing faith history. There's movements that came out of Southern California that came out of Southern California that came out of Southern California through Calvary Chapel to Vineyard. I through Calvary Chapel to Vineyard. I through Calvary Chapel to Vineyard. I mean, movements, you know, um that God mean, movements, you know, um that God mean, movements, you know, um that God did here and and we believe he's still did here and and we believe he's still did here and and we believe he's still working here in beautiful ways. working here in beautiful ways. working here in beautiful ways. >> So, you're back in, I want to say local >> So, you're back in, I want to say local >> So, you're back in, I want to say local ministry. That's what it is, right? Here ministry. That's what it is, right? Here ministry. That's what it is, right? Here in Irvine for the last eight years. in Irvine for the last eight years. in Irvine for the last eight years. What's been your biggest surprise? What's been your biggest surprise? What's been your biggest surprise? Um, Um, Um, I I I truly have was surprised from the I I I truly have was surprised from the I I I truly have was surprised from the very beginning of how approachable the very beginning of how approachable the very beginning of how approachable the people are, how how kind the people are. people are, how how kind the people are. people are, how how kind the people are. People in Southern California are great.

People in Southern California are great. People in Southern California are great. I mean, you go mountain biking um and I mean, you go mountain biking um and I mean, you go mountain biking um and you you know, you come across another you you know, you come across another you you know, you come across another mountain biker, you wave, you know, or mountain biker, you wave, you know, or mountain biker, you wave, you know, or or you'll ask, "Hey, you know, you need or you'll ask, "Hey, you know, you need or you'll ask, "Hey, you know, you need help. Somebody's changing a tire." help. Somebody's changing a tire." help. Somebody's changing a tire." People are really kind here, People are really kind here, People are really kind here, >> you I I I guess I didn't expect that >> you I I I guess I didn't expect that >> you I I I guess I didn't expect that because of the fast-pacness of Southern because of the fast-pacness of Southern because of the fast-pacness of Southern California, but California, but California, but >> there there's all there's there's really >> there there's all there's there's really >> there there's all there's there's really kind people here. kind people here. kind people here. >> What What has been the biggest surprise >> What What has been the biggest surprise >> What What has been the biggest surprise about your role as lead pastor of a about your role as lead pastor of a about your role as lead pastor of a large growing church? What are you like, large growing church? What are you like, large growing church? What are you like, "Oh, yeah. Wasn't expecting that." I the "Oh, yeah. Wasn't expecting that." I the "Oh, yeah. Wasn't expecting that." I the um there's so many there's so many um um there's so many there's so many um um there's so many there's so many um the the weight of sermon prep the the weight of sermon prep the the weight of sermon prep was more than I thought it would would was more than I thought it would would was more than I thought it would would be. be. be. >> How so? >> How so? >> How so? >> I had been been preaching uh at every >> I had been been preaching uh at every >> I had been been preaching uh at every place, but I wasn't like in Miami. I I place, but I wasn't like in Miami. I I place, but I wasn't like in Miami. I I taught probably 20 times a year here 35 taught probably 20 times a year here 35 taught probably 20 times a year here 35 times a year. Just the weekly rhythm of times a year. Just the weekly rhythm of times a year. Just the weekly rhythm of being disciplined to be in the text and being disciplined to be in the text and being disciplined to be in the text and study and hear from the Lord is very study and hear from the Lord is very study and hear from the Lord is very sanctifying. I mean Kate, my wife says, sanctifying. I mean Kate, my wife says, sanctifying. I mean Kate, my wife says, you're you're a godly you're a more you're you're a godly you're a more you're you're a godly you're a more godly husband and dad than you used to godly husband and dad than you used to godly husband and dad than you used to be.

be. be. >> Well, it could have gone the other way. >> Well, it could have gone the other way. >> Well, it could have gone the other way. You know, could have gone the other way. You know, could have gone the other way. You know, could have gone the other way. >> And I'm like, I should be because I >> And I'm like, I should be because I >> And I'm like, I should be because I spend more time I'm I'm in the text spend more time I'm I'm in the text spend more time I'm I'm in the text more. And if because of I've got the more. And if because of I've got the more. And if because of I've got the spirit of God within me, I I should spirit of God within me, I I should spirit of God within me, I I should actually be that should be happening. actually be that should be happening. actually be that should be happening. Uh, but there's a burden to that and Uh, but there's a burden to that and Uh, but there's a burden to that and just the the non-stop weight of it is just the the non-stop weight of it is just the the non-stop weight of it is more than I thought it would be. more than I thought it would be. more than I thought it would be. >> Is there an extra weight because of the >> Is there an extra weight because of the >> Is there an extra weight because of the size and scope of the ministry? size and scope of the ministry? size and scope of the ministry? >> I don't I don't think so. >> I don't I don't think so. >> I don't I don't think so. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> it was 200 people. >> it was 200 people. >> it was 200 people. >> I think I think I carry the same weight >> I think I think I carry the same weight >> I think I think I carry the same weight as the pastor of a church of 200. I I as the pastor of a church of 200. I I as the pastor of a church of 200. I I honestly and I I learned this from my honestly and I I learned this from my honestly and I I learned this from my time at Lifeway. time at Lifeway. time at Lifeway. I think the pastor of a church of 200 I think the pastor of a church of 200 I think the pastor of a church of 200 has a harder job than I have. Let's talk has a harder job than I have. Let's talk has a harder job than I have. Let's talk about that. about that. about that. >> Yeah, I really do. >> Yeah, I really do. >> Yeah, I really do. >> Explain why. >> Explain why. >> Explain why. >> Yeah. Um, >> Yeah. Um, >> Yeah. Um, right now, as you and I are talking, right now, as you and I are talking, right now, as you and I are talking, there are there's for sure some crisis. there are there's for sure some crisis. there are there's for sure some crisis. There's for sure some marriage that is There's for sure some marriage that is There's for sure some marriage that is needing counseling. There's for sure needing counseling. There's for sure needing counseling. There's for sure uh a teenager that has a wrestle. And uh a teenager that has a wrestle. And uh a teenager that has a wrestle. And the church, the pastor of the church of the church, the pastor of the church of the church, the pastor of the church of 200 200 200 likely gets pulled into many of those likely gets pulled into many of those likely gets pulled into many of those conversations.

conversations. conversations. And he has the sermon. And he has the sermon. And he has the sermon. >> Yeah. His phone's ringing. Her phone's >> Yeah. His phone's ringing. Her phone's >> Yeah. His phone's ringing. Her phone's ringing. and he has the sermon ringing. and he has the sermon ringing. and he has the sermon >> and the person has the sermon. >> and the person has the sermon. >> and the person has the sermon. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The uh I I we have a we have 70 pastors >> The uh I I we have a we have 70 pastors >> The uh I I we have a we have 70 pastors on the team. So because of that there's on the team. So because of that there's on the team. So because of that there's I I mean I still I I don't I don't want I I mean I still I I don't I don't want I I mean I still I I don't I don't want to be removed. I want to smell like to be removed. I want to smell like to be removed. I want to smell like sheep and be that's why I just did this sheep and be that's why I just did this sheep and be that's why I just did this this memorial service. this memorial service. this memorial service. >> But I um I have a team of people. >> But I um I have a team of people. >> But I um I have a team of people. >> You kind of have to be >> You kind of have to be >> You kind of have to be >> at this stage. And if you don't have the >> at this stage. And if you don't have the >> at this stage. And if you don't have the systems to be somewhat removed, you're systems to be somewhat removed, you're systems to be somewhat removed, you're not reaching the people you're reaching. not reaching the people you're reaching. not reaching the people you're reaching. >> That's true. But my role, I'm able to um >> That's true. But my role, I'm able to um >> That's true. But my role, I'm able to um I'm able to work on that sermon more I'm able to work on that sermon more I'm able to work on that sermon more than that pastor of the church of 200 is than that pastor of the church of 200 is than that pastor of the church of 200 is the bivocational pastors that we would the bivocational pastors that we would the bivocational pastors that we would serve in in when I was at Lifeway. serve in in when I was at Lifeway. serve in in when I was at Lifeway. >> Heroes. >> Heroes. >> Heroes. >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> Heroes. >> Heroes. >> Heroes. >> Like 40 50 hours a week in a day job >> Like 40 50 hours a week in a day job >> Like 40 50 hours a week in a day job >> plus meeting a church. just my I don't >> plus meeting a church. just my I don't >> plus meeting a church. just my I don't view because I know sometimes people view because I know sometimes people view because I know sometimes people will look at someone just because of the will look at someone just because of the will look at someone just because of the size of the church or or something else size of the church or or something else size of the church or or something else that oh you know Eric's a more skilled that oh you know Eric's a more skilled that oh you know Eric's a more skilled leader I don't think I'm a more skilled leader I don't think I'm a more skilled leader I don't think I'm a more skilled leader I I could I would tell those leader I I could I would tell those leader I I could I would tell those biocational pastors you are doing what I biocational pastors you are doing what I biocational pastors you are doing what I can't I I can do what you do I'm I'm can't I I can do what you do I'm I'm can't I I can do what you do I'm I'm amazed by you I'm amazed by you your amazed by you I'm amazed by you your amazed by you I'm amazed by you your ability to handle all of those ability to handle all of those ability to handle all of those responsibilities responsibilities responsibilities um I I'm impressed by your ability um I I'm impressed by your ability um I I'm impressed by your ability I remember 200. Have you ever led in I remember 200. Have you ever led in I remember 200. Have you ever led in that context before where you're trying that context before where you're trying that context before where you're trying to break the 200 barrier?

to break the 200 barrier? to break the 200 barrier? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Okay. I have. And I'll tell you, it's >> Okay. I have. And I'll tell you, it's >> Okay. I have. And I'll tell you, it's hard. And it's exactly that tension. You hard. And it's exactly that tension. You hard. And it's exactly that tension. You know, the preaching has got to be know, the preaching has got to be know, the preaching has got to be focused, focused, focused, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> But everybody's got your number. Your >> But everybody's got your number. Your >> But everybody's got your number. Your phone's always ringing. Your inbox is phone's always ringing. Your inbox is phone's always ringing. Your inbox is always full. You know, Warren Bird would always full. You know, Warren Bird would always full. You know, Warren Bird would be the first to say it's the hardest be the first to say it's the hardest be the first to say it's the hardest barrier to scale. barrier to scale. barrier to scale. >> I'm not surprised. >> I'm not surprised. >> I'm not surprised. >> What because you've got the meta view as >> What because you've got the meta view as >> What because you've got the meta view as well. What advice feeling for those well. What advice feeling for those well. What advice feeling for those pastors would you give them? What's pastors would you give them? What's pastors would you give them? What's going to help them in that moment? going to help them in that moment? going to help them in that moment? >> You can you can rest in what God's >> You can you can rest in what God's >> You can you can rest in what God's called you to do and that he's the one called you to do and that he's the one called you to do and that he's the one who's going to pull it all together. Um who's going to pull it all together. Um who's going to pull it all together. Um you're doing a you're doing a great you're doing a you're doing a great you're doing a you're doing a great work. You're doing a great work. Like I work. You're doing a great work. Like I work. You're doing a great work. Like I don't want to give him anything else to don't want to give him anything else to don't want to give him anything else to do. Like you're doing a great work. do. Like you're doing a great work. do. Like you're doing a great work. >> Uh it's like Nehemiah on the wall. >> Uh it's like Nehemiah on the wall. >> Uh it's like Nehemiah on the wall. You're doing a great work. Don't come You're doing a great work. Don't come You're doing a great work. Don't come down. Don't come down from the wall. down. Don't come down from the wall. down. Don't come down from the wall. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep doing what you're doing. >> What has been hard for you to not be >> What has been hard for you to not be >> What has been hard for you to not be involved in? involved in? involved in? >> Yeah. This is um one of my struggles as >> Yeah. This is um one of my struggles as >> Yeah. This is um one of my struggles as a leader. I'd say it's one of my top a leader. I'd say it's one of my top a leader. I'd say it's one of my top struggles.

struggles. struggles. There was a time when I actually thought There was a time when I actually thought There was a time when I actually thought when leaders would say things like, when leaders would say things like, when leaders would say things like, "Hey, you have to give up to go up, you "Hey, you have to give up to go up, you "Hey, you have to give up to go up, you know, or or you have to uh you have to know, or or you have to uh you have to know, or or you have to uh you have to do less things um the the more the do less things um the the more the do less things um the the more the larger the organization gets. I thought larger the organization gets. I thought larger the organization gets. I thought this is this is I'm showing my own this is this is I'm showing my own this is this is I'm showing my own sinfulness here. I in my cynicism sinfulness here. I in my cynicism sinfulness here. I in my cynicism thought that's a very self-s serving thought that's a very self-s serving thought that's a very self-s serving thing to say. Like I thought the leader thing to say. Like I thought the leader thing to say. Like I thought the leader was saying that so they didn't have to was saying that so they didn't have to was saying that so they didn't have to do things. In other words, a leader do things. In other words, a leader do things. In other words, a leader would would would say that so that they would would would say that so that they would would would say that so that they didn't have to do a bunch of stuff they didn't have to do a bunch of stuff they didn't have to do a bunch of stuff they didn't want to do. didn't want to do. didn't want to do. >> Um but what I've learned is I was wrong >> Um but what I've learned is I was wrong >> Um but what I've learned is I was wrong and that they were right. that the by and that they were right. that the by and that they were right. that the by actually not doing everything, you truly actually not doing everything, you truly actually not doing everything, you truly do allow other people to move into do allow other people to move into do allow other people to move into places of responsibility and ownership places of responsibility and ownership places of responsibility and ownership where they can thrive and that that when where they can thrive and that that when where they can thrive and that that when I step in, I actually can I step in, I actually can I step in, I actually can unintentionally unintentionally unintentionally uh stop somebody from developing into uh stop somebody from developing into uh stop somebody from developing into the leader in that area. And so I have the leader in that area. And so I have the leader in that area. And so I have to I have to the reason I it's hard for to I have to the reason I it's hard for to I have to the reason I it's hard for me is because I love it all.

me is because I love it all. me is because I love it all. >> I like I said at the beginning, I missed >> I like I said at the beginning, I missed >> I like I said at the beginning, I missed the local church when I was at Lifeway. the local church when I was at Lifeway. the local church when I was at Lifeway. I'm an operator. I love youth ministry. I'm an operator. I love youth ministry. I'm an operator. I love youth ministry. I love kids ministry. I love our I love kids ministry. I love our I love kids ministry. I love our outreach team. I I mean I I love going outreach team. I I mean I I love going outreach team. I I mean I I love going on faith adventures. You'd be in it. I on faith adventures. You'd be in it. I on faith adventures. You'd be in it. I love all of it. I want to do it all. And love all of it. I want to do it all. And love all of it. I want to do it all. And so the the hard thing for me has it so the the hard thing for me has it so the the hard thing for me has it truly is um I know you had Ashley uh truly is um I know you had Ashley uh truly is um I know you had Ashley uh Will Rich on here recently and he's he's Will Rich on here recently and he's he's Will Rich on here recently and he's he's been a great help for me. been a great help for me. been a great help for me. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> And he I saw him share with you and he >> And he I saw him share with you and he >> And he I saw him share with you and he had shared shared this with me as well. had shared shared this with me as well. had shared shared this with me as well. he uh knows less and decides less than he uh knows less and decides less than he uh knows less and decides less than at any other place ever in um the at any other place ever in um the at any other place ever in um the history at CCV. And history at CCV. And history at CCV. And that hearing from Ashley, who I trust so that hearing from Ashley, who I trust so that hearing from Ashley, who I trust so much, his character um he's he's an much, his character um he's he's an much, his character um he's he's an amazing he's an amazing godly man. amazing he's an amazing godly man. amazing he's an amazing godly man. >> Um >> Um >> Um that w was challenging for me. Like I that w was challenging for me. Like I that w was challenging for me. Like I need there's some things I I'm probably need there's some things I I'm probably need there's some things I I'm probably in that I need to not be in. in that I need to not be in. in that I need to not be in. >> Can you give us an example? >> Can you give us an example? >> Can you give us an example? Um, some things I I need to not be in Um, some things I I need to not be in Um, some things I I need to not be in that I'm in. Um, yeah, like uh some like that I'm in. Um, yeah, like uh some like that I'm in. Um, yeah, like uh some like uh the facility. Well, I know. You know uh the facility. Well, I know. You know uh the facility. Well, I know. You know what? I'm I'm going to make myself I I what? I'm I'm going to make myself I I what? I'm I'm going to make myself I I couldn't give that up.

couldn't give that up. couldn't give that up. >> Your staff are going to hold hold you >> Your staff are going to hold hold you >> Your staff are going to hold hold you accountable. You know, accountable. You know, accountable. You know, >> the decision on the lawn to go >> the decision on the lawn to go >> the decision on the lawn to go artificial turf or grass. artificial turf or grass. artificial turf or grass. >> I'd want to be involved in that one. >> I'd want to be involved in that one. >> I'd want to be involved in that one. >> Me, too. >> Me, too. >> Me, too. >> Oh, yeah. Come on, man. I have lawn >> Oh, yeah. Come on, man. I have lawn >> Oh, yeah. Come on, man. I have lawn lines or not. lines or not. lines or not. >> I do not want artificial. It's too hot. >> I do not want artificial. It's too hot. >> I do not want artificial. It's too hot. It's not pretty enough. I want I want It's not pretty enough. I want I want It's not pretty enough. I want I want the real thing. So there there's an the real thing. So there there's an the real thing. So there there's an example of every now and then I I I just example of every now and then I I I just example of every now and then I I I just latch in because I know there was latch in because I know there was latch in because I know there was conversations about it being artificial conversations about it being artificial conversations about it being artificial and I was like, "No, it's not going to and I was like, "No, it's not going to and I was like, "No, it's not going to be artificial." be artificial." be artificial." >> Where did that land? It's pure grass, >> Where did that land? It's pure grass, >> Where did that land? It's pure grass, man. man. man. >> There you go. There you go. >> There you go. There you go. >> There you go. There you go. >> And it's beautiful. Yes, sir. But um I I >> And it's beautiful. Yes, sir. But um I I >> And it's beautiful. Yes, sir. But um I I think think think group strategy, local outreach strategy, group strategy, local outreach strategy, group strategy, local outreach strategy, you know, kids ministry curriculum. I you know, kids ministry curriculum. I you know, kids ministry curriculum. I mean, things like that. I know they're mean, things like that. I know they're mean, things like that. I know they're all important. And I because of my all important. And I because of my all important. And I because of my history, I actually do have some history, I actually do have some history, I actually do have some experience in some of those things. experience in some of those things. experience in some of those things. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> To to to pull myself out of some of >> To to to pull myself out of some of >> To to to pull myself out of some of those conversations those conversations those conversations um is best for the organization. The um is best for the organization. The um is best for the organization. The struggle I've had is I I worry sometimes struggle I've had is I I worry sometimes struggle I've had is I I worry sometimes that some of the staff feels that I that some of the staff feels that I that some of the staff feels that I don't care. And I do care. And and so we don't care. And I do care. And and so we don't care. And I do care. And and so we just had our annual pastor gathering and just had our annual pastor gathering and just had our annual pastor gathering and and I shared and I shared and I shared you have no idea how how much I love you have no idea how how much I love you have no idea how how much I love your area and how I I would love to be.

your area and how I I would love to be. your area and how I I would love to be. But I but what I've learned is But I but what I've learned is But I but what I've learned is not because I'm a better communicator not because I'm a better communicator not because I'm a better communicator and not because I'm the the best and not because I'm the the best and not because I'm the the best strategist, but because of my position, strategist, but because of my position, strategist, but because of my position, the two best things that I contribute on the two best things that I contribute on the two best things that I contribute on a weekly basis is my communicating and a weekly basis is my communicating and a weekly basis is my communicating and overall strategy. And so I need to I overall strategy. And so I need to I overall strategy. And so I need to I need to focus more on those things. need to focus more on those things. need to focus more on those things. That was that was like two weeks ago. That was that was like two weeks ago. That was that was like two weeks ago. >> Part of leading anything and I think >> Part of leading anything and I think >> Part of leading anything and I think part of leading something large is the part of leading something large is the part of leading something large is the willingness to be misunderstood. Because willingness to be misunderstood. Because willingness to be misunderstood. Because for every funeral you do, there's 10 you for every funeral you do, there's 10 you for every funeral you do, there's 10 you don't do. don't do. don't do. >> For every wedding you perform, there's >> For every wedding you perform, there's >> For every wedding you perform, there's 20 that you don't perform. For every 20 that you don't perform. For every 20 that you don't perform. For every meeting you attend, there's a hundred meeting you attend, there's a hundred meeting you attend, there's a hundred that you don't attend. Yeah. that you don't attend. Yeah. that you don't attend. Yeah. >> What are you learning about at scale >> What are you learning about at scale >> What are you learning about at scale being willing to be misunderstood? being willing to be misunderstood? being willing to be misunderstood? Yeah, I I think you said it. I It's hard Yeah, I I think you said it. I It's hard Yeah, I I think you said it. I It's hard to improve on how you set it up. It is to improve on how you set it up. It is to improve on how you set it up. It is It is true. The I think it can get It is true. The I think it can get It is true. The I think it can get counteracted a little bit with tenure. counteracted a little bit with tenure. counteracted a little bit with tenure. Um and people really knowing and I think Um and people really knowing and I think Um and people really knowing and I think this is just God's grace and and it's a this is just God's grace and and it's a this is just God's grace and and it's a supernatural thing. I think people in supernatural thing. I think people in supernatural thing. I think people in our church know I love them. And when our church know I love them. And when our church know I love them. And when they know that they know that they know that he loves us, he loves us, he loves us, it's it's um the nos are received better it's it's um the nos are received better it's it's um the nos are received better when people know they're loved. The when people know they're loved. The when people know they're loved. The other thing at scale is is being sure other thing at scale is is being sure other thing at scale is is being sure that we do all we can as a church to that we do all we can as a church to that we do all we can as a church to help our people understand that Eric is help our people understand that Eric is help our people understand that Eric is not the pastor.

not the pastor. not the pastor. >> We have a community of pastors. Yes, >> We have a community of pastors. Yes, >> We have a community of pastors. Yes, >> we have a team of pastors. Um, it's not >> we have a team of pastors. Um, it's not >> we have a team of pastors. Um, it's not I I'm going to do all I can to be sure I I'm going to do all I can to be sure I I'm going to do all I can to be sure we set up the right environment and we set up the right environment and we set up the right environment and structures where you're shepherded, but structures where you're shepherded, but structures where you're shepherded, but you might be shepherded by someone other you might be shepherded by someone other you might be shepherded by someone other than me, but you're going to be than me, but you're going to be than me, but you're going to be shepherded. It's a community of shepherded. It's a community of shepherded. It's a community of shepherds, not a single shepherd. And I shepherds, not a single shepherd. And I shepherds, not a single shepherd. And I think that's one of the mo back to the think that's one of the mo back to the think that's one of the mo back to the the pastor of, you know, a church of the pastor of, you know, a church of the pastor of, you know, a church of 100, 200. I think that is the inflection 100, 200. I think that is the inflection 100, 200. I think that is the inflection point. And just to talk to that pastor point. And just to talk to that pastor point. And just to talk to that pastor for a moment, you know, I I have that for a moment, you know, I I have that for a moment, you know, I I have that same struggle in what I do now. There's same struggle in what I do now. There's same struggle in what I do now. There's a lot of people who listen to this a lot of people who listen to this a lot of people who listen to this podcast, who follow my leadership podcast, who follow my leadership podcast, who follow my leadership material, and it's amazing how little I material, and it's amazing how little I material, and it's amazing how little I know about what's going on in my know about what's going on in my know about what's going on in my company. I mean, my team feels so many company. I mean, my team feels so many company. I mean, my team feels so many emails, so many inbound messages that I emails, so many inbound messages that I emails, so many inbound messages that I just don't see, just don't see, just don't see, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Like you and I can't see them or else I >> Like you and I can't see them or else I >> Like you and I can't see them or else I couldn't focus on my interview with Eric couldn't focus on my interview with Eric couldn't focus on my interview with Eric Guyer. I just couldn't do it. Couldn't Guyer. I just couldn't do it. Couldn't Guyer. I just couldn't do it. Couldn't write the questions. Couldn't be here. write the questions. Couldn't be here. write the questions. Couldn't be here. Couldn't be fully focused. Case in Couldn't be fully focused. Case in Couldn't be fully focused. Case in point, two weeks ago, I'm at an event in point, two weeks ago, I'm at an event in point, two weeks ago, I'm at an event in Chicago and I'm walking down the road Chicago and I'm walking down the road Chicago and I'm walking down the road just looking for a place to go for just looking for a place to go for just looking for a place to go for dinner and this couple shouts out, dinner and this couple shouts out, dinner and this couple shouts out, "Carrie, you know, which happens from "Carrie, you know, which happens from "Carrie, you know, which happens from time to time." They had emailed my time to time." They had emailed my time to time." They had emailed my assistant the month before, week before assistant the month before, week before assistant the month before, week before to see if they could meet with me at to see if they could meet with me at to see if they could meet with me at this conference. I didn't know anything this conference. I didn't know anything this conference. I didn't know anything about it. She had politely declined, about it. She had politely declined, about it. She had politely declined, which is her job because I was quote which is her job because I was quote which is her job because I was quote busy, busy, busy, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> I ended up having a halfhour >> I ended up having a halfhour >> I ended up having a halfhour conversation with them right there on conversation with them right there on conversation with them right there on the street in Chicago. It was awesome. the street in Chicago. It was awesome. the street in Chicago. It was awesome. It was epic. And there's part of my It was epic. And there's part of my It was epic. And there's part of my heart heart heart >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> that would do that a thousand times a >> that would do that a thousand times a >> that would do that a thousand times a month. month. month. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> I would do that with every listener. >> I would do that with every listener. >> I would do that with every listener. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> And you that tension never if it does go >> And you that tension never if it does go >> And you that tension never if it does go away, I think you have a problem. away, I think you have a problem. away, I think you have a problem. >> See, I I I I love that about you. And >> See, I I I I love that about you. And >> See, I I I I love that about you. And that's I see I sense that in you and that's I see I sense that in you and that's I see I sense that in you and that's it's it's it's true. I want to that's it's it's it's true. I want to that's it's it's it's true. I want to have the meetings. have the meetings. have the meetings. >> Yes. Me too. >> Yes. Me too. >> Yes. Me too. >> It's just I can't then also preach a >> It's just I can't then also preach a >> It's just I can't then also preach a sermon. You know, it's funny you say sermon. You know, it's funny you say sermon. You know, it's funny you say that because uh gosh, maybe two weeks that because uh gosh, maybe two weeks that because uh gosh, maybe two weeks ago, Ed Stzer, one of my best friends, ago, Ed Stzer, one of my best friends, ago, Ed Stzer, one of my best friends, he and I went, we were actually meeting he and I went, we were actually meeting he and I went, we were actually meeting bunch of our pastors at an Angels game, bunch of our pastors at an Angels game, bunch of our pastors at an Angels game, California Angels. California Angels. California Angels. >> That sounds like fun. >> That sounds like fun. >> That sounds like fun. >> It was great. And and he and I rode >> It was great. And and he and I rode >> It was great. And and he and I rode together and we were walking out and we together and we were walking out and we together and we were walking out and we we were talking about this about he he we were talking about this about he he we were talking about this about he he he had a certain situation that happened he had a certain situation that happened he had a certain situation that happened that day and then I had one too where we that day and then I had one too where we that day and then I had one too where we both felt that we had disappointed both felt that we had disappointed both felt that we had disappointed people by not being able to give them as people by not being able to give them as people by not being able to give them as much as they wanted of our time. And I much as they wanted of our time. And I much as they wanted of our time. And I he had shared his, I shared mine. We he had shared his, I shared mine. We he had shared his, I shared mine. We were walking and I just went like a big were walking and I just went like a big were walking and I just went like a big sigh. And um one of the the workers for sigh. And um one of the the workers for sigh. And um one of the the workers for the angels was right in front and she the angels was right in front and she the angels was right in front and she turned around and said, "Sir, that was a turned around and said, "Sir, that was a turned around and said, "Sir, that was a big sigh. Are you okay?"

big sigh. Are you okay?" big sigh. Are you okay?" And I said, "Man, you were so sweet. You And I said, "Man, you were so sweet. You And I said, "Man, you were so sweet. You were so sweet. I am okay, but the fact were so sweet. I am okay, but the fact were so sweet. I am okay, but the fact that you just cared, that means a lot to that you just cared, that means a lot to that you just cared, that means a lot to me." me." me." >> And and uh she said, "What's wrong?" I >> And and uh she said, "What's wrong?" I >> And and uh she said, "What's wrong?" I said, "We're just talking about how we said, "We're just talking about how we said, "We're just talking about how we disappoint people sometimes." and she disappoint people sometimes." and she disappoint people sometimes." and she says, "Well, how do you think the Angels says, "Well, how do you think the Angels says, "Well, how do you think the Angels feel tonight?" feel tonight?" feel tonight?" >> It was classic, man. It would That's >> It was classic, man. It would That's >> It was classic, man. It would That's true. true. true. >> It would have been a perfect Like if we >> It would have been a perfect Like if we >> It would have been a perfect Like if we had that on video, it would have been a had that on video, it would have been a had that on video, it would have been a perfect illustration. perfect illustration. perfect illustration. >> You had a great team 40% of the time >> You had a great team 40% of the time >> You had a great team 40% of the time you're disappointing your fans. you're disappointing your fans. you're disappointing your fans. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Well, uh, and I think I think that is a >> Well, uh, and I think I think that is a >> Well, uh, and I think I think that is a tension that I felt at 200. And you had tension that I felt at 200. And you had tension that I felt at 200. And you had to get over that like I'm not doing your to get over that like I'm not doing your to get over that like I'm not doing your wedding. I'm not doing your funeral. Not wedding. I'm not doing your funeral. Not wedding. I'm not doing your funeral. Not going to meet with you. That moves you going to meet with you. That moves you going to meet with you. That moves you to 500. Other things move you to a,000. to 500. Other things move you to a,000. to 500. Other things move you to a,000. But it's just a tension that never goes But it's just a tension that never goes But it's just a tension that never goes away. And if it does go away, I think away. And if it does go away, I think away. And if it does go away, I think there's something wrong with your soul. there's something wrong with your soul. there's something wrong with your soul. you 100% we we must be the people that you 100% we we must be the people that you 100% we we must be the people that want to be with the people, want to be with the people, want to be with the people, >> right? And when you have that moment, >> right? And when you have that moment, >> right? And when you have that moment, take it. take it. take it. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> If it's in your calendar, you're not run >> If it's in your calendar, you're not run >> If it's in your calendar, you're not run off, take it. off, take it. off, take it. >> Agree. >> Agree. >> Agree. >> So, um, got to ask you about this >> So, um, got to ask you about this >> So, um, got to ask you about this because I got to tell you, the first because I got to tell you, the first because I got to tell you, the first impact I had with you long before I met impact I had with you long before I met impact I had with you long before I met you was over 20 years ago when Simple you was over 20 years ago when Simple you was over 20 years ago when Simple Church came out when you and said Tom Church came out when you and said Tom Church came out when you and said Tom Rener wrote that book that rocked the Rener wrote that book that rocked the Rener wrote that book that rocked the church. Yeah.

church. Yeah. church. Yeah. >> And I remember getting a copy of it. And >> And I remember getting a copy of it. And >> And I remember getting a copy of it. And when did that come out? 2004. when did that come out? 2004. when did that come out? 2004. >> I think it was 2006. >> I think it was 2006. >> I think it was 2006. >> 6.0. Okay. Oh, yeah. That makes a lot of >> 6.0. Okay. Oh, yeah. That makes a lot of >> 6.0. Okay. Oh, yeah. That makes a lot of sense in my life. sense in my life. sense in my life. >> He's hitting right at 20 years now. >> He's hitting right at 20 years now. >> He's hitting right at 20 years now. >> Yeah, it's crazy. >> Yeah, it's crazy. >> Yeah, it's crazy. >> So, guess what? You're looking at a guy >> So, guess what? You're looking at a guy >> So, guess what? You're looking at a guy who read it and implemented things who read it and implemented things who read it and implemented things almost immediately. almost immediately. almost immediately. >> First of all, I want to thank you for >> First of all, I want to thank you for >> First of all, I want to thank you for the mass exit out of our church when I the mass exit out of our church when I the mass exit out of our church when I shut down a lot of ministry. shut down a lot of ministry. shut down a lot of ministry. Responsibility. No, I take full Responsibility. No, I take full Responsibility. No, I take full responsibility. I learned how to lead responsibility. I learned how to lead responsibility. I learned how to lead change a lot better after that. change a lot better after that. change a lot better after that. >> But we went from a if you can dream it, >> But we went from a if you can dream it, >> But we went from a if you can dream it, you can do it church, right? you can do it church, right? you can do it church, right? >> To a simple church model. >> To a simple church model. >> To a simple church model. >> You had a menu. Let's put anything >> You had a menu. Let's put anything >> You had a menu. Let's put anything that's that's that's >> Oh, you want to run that ministry? You >> Oh, you want to run that ministry? You >> Oh, you want to run that ministry? You go ahead. going back to doing whatever go ahead. going back to doing whatever go ahead. going back to doing whatever people tell you to do. It wasn't a people tell you to do. It wasn't a people tell you to do. It wasn't a strategy. That book, and if you're a strategy. That book, and if you're a strategy. That book, and if you're a church leader of my vintage, you church leader of my vintage, you church leader of my vintage, you remember how impactful that book was. It remember how impactful that book was. It remember how impactful that book was. It rocked a lot of us and literally, I rocked a lot of us and literally, I rocked a lot of us and literally, I think, helped change the church think, helped change the church think, helped change the church landscape for a lot of us. landscape for a lot of us. landscape for a lot of us. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, and it was a gift. I mean, we >> Um, and it was a gift. I mean, we >> Um, and it was a gift. I mean, we started running. Once those people left, started running. Once those people left, started running. Once those people left, a lot of them came back. Um, and then we a lot of them came back. Um, and then we a lot of them came back. Um, and then we got really aligned around our mission, got really aligned around our mission, got really aligned around our mission, vision, and strategy.

vision, and strategy. vision, and strategy. >> Power and alignment. number of >> Power and alignment. number of >> Power and alignment. number of unchurched people that showed up at our unchurched people that showed up at our unchurched people that showed up at our church went through the roof when we church went through the roof when we church went through the roof when we relaunched a year later as Kexus Church relaunched a year later as Kexus Church relaunched a year later as Kexus Church and you know the rest is has been and you know the rest is has been and you know the rest is has been amazing but that was a very painful amazing but that was a very painful amazing but that was a very painful transition learned a lot about change transition learned a lot about change transition learned a lot about change disappointed a lot of people when I say disappointed a lot of people when I say disappointed a lot of people when I say you can't do your ministry you know what you can't do your ministry you know what you can't do your ministry you know what I learned in that season I learned in that season I learned in that season >> what you become involved in becomes the >> what you become involved in becomes the >> what you become involved in becomes the mission mission mission >> so if you run the men who love to >> so if you run the men who love to >> so if you run the men who love to mountain bike Saturday morning breakfast mountain bike Saturday morning breakfast mountain bike Saturday morning breakfast club and I come to you and I'm like Eric club and I come to you and I'm like Eric club and I come to you and I'm like Eric we can't run that anymore are you're we can't run that anymore are you're we can't run that anymore are you're like, "Great. I'm going to find a new like, "Great. I'm going to find a new like, "Great. I'm going to find a new church." church." church." >> Yeah. Because because they feel like you >> Yeah. Because because they feel like you >> Yeah. Because because they feel like you just killed the mission. just killed the mission. just killed the mission. >> The whole mission. Your mission was >> The whole mission. Your mission was >> The whole mission. Your mission was >> the mission. >> the mission. >> the mission. >> Do you know I have two unchurched guys? >> Do you know I have two unchurched guys? >> Do you know I have two unchurched guys? It's like, "Yeah, great. There's six of It's like, "Yeah, great. There's six of It's like, "Yeah, great. There's six of you in your mountain club, you in your mountain club, you in your mountain club, >> right, >> right, >> right, >> thing, but like, you know, whatever." So >> thing, but like, you know, whatever." So >> thing, but like, you know, whatever." So anyway, lots of lessons. What I want to anyway, lots of lessons. What I want to anyway, lots of lessons. What I want to know is how much of that 20 years later know is how much of that 20 years later know is how much of that 20 years later when you think about leading something when you think about leading something when you think about leading something as large as Mariners, as large as Mariners, as large as Mariners, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> still applies and what would you change? >> still applies and what would you change? >> still applies and what would you change? >> Yeah. Um there's not a lot that doesn't >> Yeah. Um there's not a lot that doesn't >> Yeah. Um there's not a lot that doesn't apply. I don't apply. I don't apply. I don't >> um now that's it could be my bias >> um now that's it could be my bias >> um now that's it could be my bias because I you wrote the book because I because I you wrote the book because I because I you wrote the book because I did the work and and and it's also it's did the work and and and it's also it's did the work and and and it's also it's not um because the book was successful.

not um because the book was successful. not um because the book was successful. It's because I did a lot of thinking It's because I did a lot of thinking It's because I did a lot of thinking >> you know >> you know >> you know >> I still live by it. Complexity doesn't >> I still live by it. Complexity doesn't >> I still live by it. Complexity doesn't scale. scale. scale. >> No. For sure. and and I you've seen a >> No. For sure. and and I you've seen a >> No. For sure. and and I you've seen a lot of organizations who have a growth lot of organizations who have a growth lot of organizations who have a growth run and then they get complex and then run and then they get complex and then run and then they get complex and then all they are is program managers and all they are is program managers and all they are is program managers and they they just manage to climb for a they they just manage to climb for a they they just manage to climb for a whole lot of years. So when you grow to whole lot of years. So when you grow to whole lot of years. So when you grow to to a place that allows for complexity to a place that allows for complexity to a place that allows for complexity >> and at some you know whether there's 800 >> and at some you know whether there's 800 >> and at some you know whether there's 800 or 1500 or 2500 there's some place where or 1500 or 2500 there's some place where or 1500 or 2500 there's some place where a church grows and I think it depends on a church grows and I think it depends on a church grows and I think it depends on the area of the country and how the area of the country and how the area of the country and how expensive it is to have a facility but expensive it is to have a facility but expensive it is to have a facility but at some place a church grows to a place at some place a church grows to a place at some place a church grows to a place where you can afford complexity where you can afford complexity where you can afford complexity >> and then when you can afford complexity >> and then when you can afford complexity >> and then when you can afford complexity >> it's true >> it's true >> it's true >> that's when you have to decide nope nope >> that's when you have to decide nope nope >> that's when you have to decide nope nope nope we're carving out the extra nope we're carving out the extra nope we're carving out the extra resource to stay focused to stay on resource to stay focused to stay on resource to stay focused to stay on mission because when you can afford mission because when you can afford mission because when you can afford complexity and you bring complexity in complexity and you bring complexity in complexity and you bring complexity in then that's when people defend their then that's when people defend their then that's when people defend their complexity complexity complexity >> right >> right >> right >> you know >> you know >> you know >> can you say more about that that's >> can you say more about that that's >> can you say more about that that's really you know I hadn't thought about really you know I hadn't thought about really you know I hadn't thought about that angle either forgot about it that angle either forgot about it that angle either forgot about it >> or I hadn't thought about it but there >> or I hadn't thought about it but there >> or I hadn't thought about it but there is a point particularly if you're good is a point particularly if you're good is a point particularly if you're good and I'm thinking about our friend mutual and I'm thinking about our friend mutual and I'm thinking about our friend mutual friend Craig Relle friend Craig Relle friend Craig Relle >> yes >> yes >> yes >> he loves constraints >> he loves constraints >> he loves constraints >> yeah I mean Craig is a genius I mean >> yeah I mean Craig is a genius I mean >> yeah I mean Craig is a genius I mean he's got a great statement where he says he's got a great statement where he says he's got a great statement where he says uh simplicity uh simplicity uh simplicity creates growth and then growth creates creates growth and then growth creates creates growth and then growth creates complexity. So you have to be careful complexity. So you have to be careful complexity. So you have to be careful that you if you want to continue to grow that you if you want to continue to grow that you if you want to continue to grow and reach new people, you got to fight and reach new people, you got to fight and reach new people, you got to fight against the complexity. When a church is against the complexity. When a church is against the complexity. When a church is in startup mode, you're not fighting in startup mode, you're not fighting in startup mode, you're not fighting against complexity. You're fighting to

against complexity. You're fighting to against complexity. You're fighting to to to to have a church. to to to have a church. to to to have a church. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> And then at some point you get to a and >> And then at some point you get to a and >> And then at some point you get to a and the reason I said the size can vary. I the reason I said the size can vary. I the reason I said the size can vary. I mean to have a facility in Southern mean to have a facility in Southern mean to have a facility in Southern California is more expensive than to California is more expensive than to California is more expensive than to >> have a facility in um the middle of >> have a facility in um the middle of >> have a facility in um the middle of Tennessee, you know, so you might get Tennessee, you know, so you might get Tennessee, you know, so you might get complexity earlier in in a place where complexity earlier in in a place where complexity earlier in in a place where where you don't have to allow as much where you don't have to allow as much where you don't have to allow as much budget towards budget towards budget towards >> facility. Right. >> facility. Right. >> facility. Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But there is a number or a place a >> But there is a number or a place a >> But there is a number or a place a threshold where you can afford let's threshold where you can afford let's threshold where you can afford let's just hire that away. just hire that away. just hire that away. >> Exactly. And then I mean we've seen >> Exactly. And then I mean we've seen >> Exactly. And then I mean we've seen this. I mean our friend Tony Morgan um this. I mean our friend Tony Morgan um this. I mean our friend Tony Morgan um who sadly passed away. I mean he who sadly passed away. I mean he who sadly passed away. I mean he constantly had the data that the if you constantly had the data that the if you constantly had the data that the if you were overstaffed you actually I mean he were overstaffed you actually I mean he were overstaffed you actually I mean he literally sending this quarterly report literally sending this quarterly report literally sending this quarterly report out every year. out every year. out every year. >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> And and and very few people do anything >> And and and very few people do anything >> And and and very few people do anything with the data that says if you're with the data that says if you're with the data that says if you're overstaffed you actually are hurting overstaffed you actually are hurting overstaffed you actually are hurting mission. mission. mission. >> You're depriving your volunteers. You're >> You're depriving your volunteers. You're >> You're depriving your volunteers. You're taxing your budget. And you know I don't taxing your budget. And you know I don't taxing your budget. And you know I don't know whether you've seen this or not. know whether you've seen this or not. know whether you've seen this or not. The people who say they're the most The people who say they're the most The people who say they're the most underststaffed statistically are the underststaffed statistically are the underststaffed statistically are the people who are the most overstaffed.

people who are the most overstaffed. people who are the most overstaffed. >> That's hilarious. >> That's hilarious. >> That's hilarious. >> I've consulted those churches and I know >> I've consulted those churches and I know >> I've consulted those churches and I know the ratio it changes. Could be one to the ratio it changes. Could be one to the ratio it changes. Could be one to 100, one to 80, one to 75, one, you 100, one to 80, one to 75, one, you 100, one to 80, one to 75, one, you know, for every 75 attenders, you should know, for every 75 attenders, you should know, for every 75 attenders, you should have one staff member. It varies have one staff member. It varies have one staff member. It varies depending on who you're listening to. depending on who you're listening to. depending on who you're listening to. >> I always I always look at um >> I always I always look at um >> I always I always look at um compensation percentages more than than compensation percentages more than than compensation percentages more than than >> interesting. >> interesting. >> interesting. >> Only because we pay people in in >> Only because we pay people in in >> Only because we pay people in in dollars, dollars, dollars, >> right? Right. >> right? Right. >> right? Right. >> You know, so >> You know, so >> You know, so >> so as a percentage of overall budget. >> so as a percentage of overall budget. >> so as a percentage of overall budget. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Now you you have to look at apples and Now you you have to look at apples and Now you you have to look at apples and apples cuz some people like outsource apples cuz some people like outsource apples cuz some people like outsource their custodial and some people but but their custodial and some people but but their custodial and some people but but still I think that's the still I think that's the still I think that's the >> where do you like to be on that >> where do you like to be on that >> where do you like to be on that >> um for I mean I I like to be 40 to 45 >> um for I mean I I like to be 40 to 45 >> um for I mean I I like to be 40 to 45 you know you know you know >> um >> um >> um >> I think that's number which is where we >> I think that's number which is where we >> I think that's number which is where we are are are >> where you are. Yeah. >> where you are. Yeah. >> where you are. Yeah. >> I think Chris Hodes is 35% which is >> I think Chris Hodes is 35% which is >> I think Chris Hodes is 35% which is insane. insane. insane. >> 35 uh and then I think Craig is like 32 >> 35 uh and then I think Craig is like 32 >> 35 uh and then I think Craig is like 32 to 35 to 35 to 35 >> exactly. I mean, the reality is, um, >> exactly. I mean, the reality is, um, >> exactly. I mean, the reality is, um, everyone or lots of people can say, "Oh, everyone or lots of people can say, "Oh, everyone or lots of people can say, "Oh, it must be nice to be to be to to be it must be nice to be to be to to be it must be nice to be to be to to be those guys and have um to carve out those guys and have um to carve out those guys and have um to carve out resources to launch new congregations resources to launch new congregations resources to launch new congregations like they have." But if you want to be like they have." But if you want to be like they have." But if you want to be honest, you have to say, honest, you have to say, honest, you have to say, "But they had the discipline to to stay "But they had the discipline to to stay "But they had the discipline to to stay so less staffed to carve out. You could so less staffed to carve out. You could so less staffed to carve out. You could do it, too." And that was my original do it, too." And that was my original do it, too." And that was my original point. Very few people. Yes. He lives point. Very few people. Yes. He lives point. Very few people. Yes. He lives below his knees below his knees below his knees >> so that he has the money when the >> so that he has the money when the >> so that he has the money when the opportunity arises to launch another opportunity arises to launch another opportunity arises to launch another campus.

campus. campus. >> He's a genius >> He's a genius >> He's a genius >> and so on. And and you can do the same >> and so on. And and you can do the same >> and so on. And and you can do the same thing. But the point being, it would be thing. But the point being, it would be thing. But the point being, it would be easy to hire it away. It'd be easy to easy to hire it away. It'd be easy to easy to hire it away. It'd be easy to say, "You want to run that program? We say, "You want to run that program? We say, "You want to run that program? We have some extra money here. have some extra money here. have some extra money here. >> You just go ahead and do it." And soon >> You just go ahead and do it." And soon >> You just go ahead and do it." And soon you're bloated and you're spending 60% you're bloated and you're spending 60% you're bloated and you're spending 60% of your salary on staff and you don't of your salary on staff and you don't of your salary on staff and you don't have any money fast. have any money fast. have any money fast. >> Yeah. Doesn't take long. >> Yeah. Doesn't take long. >> Yeah. Doesn't take long. >> And then once it gets there, it's >> And then once it gets there, it's >> And then once it gets there, it's painful to un get it there. painful to un get it there. painful to un get it there. >> Mhm. And that's when the complexity. So >> Mhm. And that's when the complexity. So >> Mhm. And that's when the complexity. So then you hire this person from this then you hire this person from this then you hire this person from this specialized thing and not only do you specialized thing and not only do you specialized thing and not only do you have the volunteer of the mountain have the volunteer of the mountain have the volunteer of the mountain biking group, you have the the staff biking group, you have the the staff biking group, you have the the staff member who their whole mission is this member who their whole mission is this member who their whole mission is this loop. loop. loop. >> The ministry of mountain biking groups. >> The ministry of mountain biking groups. >> The ministry of mountain biking groups. >> And I love mountain biking. I love >> And I love mountain biking. I love >> And I love mountain biking. I love mountain biking. mountain biking. mountain biking. >> Exactly. For for six people. Right. >> Exactly. For for six people. Right. >> Exactly. For for six people. Right. >> Right. And but we've been around since >> Right. And but we've been around since >> Right. And but we've been around since 1999. 1999. 1999. You can't shut us down. You can't shut us down. You can't shut us down. >> We have our own shirts. >> We have our own shirts. >> We have our own shirts. >> Dude, how are you going to take us away? >> Dude, how are you going to take us away? >> Dude, how are you going to take us away? We have shirts. What if tomorrow is the We have shirts. What if tomorrow is the We have shirts. What if tomorrow is the day that someone comes to Christ through day that someone comes to Christ through day that someone comes to Christ through this ministry, right? this ministry, right? this ministry, right? >> And you're killing us. >> And you're killing us. >> And you're killing us. >> Oh, it's painful to hear. >> Oh, it's painful to hear. >> Oh, it's painful to hear. >> It is really tough to hear. Um, so >> It is really tough to hear. Um, so >> It is really tough to hear. Um, so updating the message of Simple Church to updating the message of Simple Church to updating the message of Simple Church to two decades later, anything you'd change two decades later, anything you'd change two decades later, anything you'd change or or or >> a couple things happened that I think >> a couple things happened that I think >> a couple things happened that I think reinforced it. Came out, the book came reinforced it. Came out, the book came reinforced it. Came out, the book came out in '06.

out in '06. out in '06. >> Uh, we had the recession in '08. >> Uh, we had the recession in '08. >> Uh, we had the recession in '08. >> Yeah, that's true. So before simplicity >> Yeah, that's true. So before simplicity >> Yeah, that's true. So before simplicity >> it it it actually people were able to to >> it it it actually people were able to to >> it it it actually people were able to to say okay as we come back if they made say okay as we come back if they made say okay as we come back if they made some wise decisions let's only finance some wise decisions let's only finance some wise decisions let's only finance what we're our disciplehip process let's what we're our disciplehip process let's what we're our disciplehip process let's resource that then a couple years later resource that then a couple years later resource that then a couple years later is when multiple campuses really took is when multiple campuses really took is when multiple campuses really took off and the reality is if you're going off and the reality is if you're going off and the reality is if you're going to multiply it's much easier to multiply to multiply it's much easier to multiply to multiply it's much easier to multiply when you're simple when you're simple when you're simple >> it's very hard to multiply a complex >> it's very hard to multiply a complex >> it's very hard to multiply a complex organization it's hard to multiply a organization it's hard to multiply a organization it's hard to multiply a complex list the programs, right? And so complex list the programs, right? And so complex list the programs, right? And so I think simple church uh was related to I think simple church uh was related to I think simple church uh was related to the helped during the recession. I hope the helped during the recession. I hope the helped during the recession. I hope it did. I wanted to be helpful and then it did. I wanted to be helpful and then it did. I wanted to be helpful and then with multiple campuses also uh Ed and I with multiple campuses also uh Ed and I with multiple campuses also uh Ed and I Stzzer, you know, he was during that Stzzer, you know, he was during that Stzzer, you know, he was during that time writing a lot on mission missional. time writing a lot on mission missional. time writing a lot on mission missional. missional was the buzz word. missional was the buzz word. missional was the buzz word. >> And he and I uh spent a lot of time >> And he and I uh spent a lot of time >> And he and I uh spent a lot of time talking about how there was a talking about how there was a talking about how there was a relationship between simplicity and relationship between simplicity and relationship between simplicity and missional because you created margin in missional because you created margin in missional because you created margin in people's lives to not always be at the people's lives to not always be at the people's lives to not always be at the church campus, but to be able to be on church campus, but to be able to be on church campus, but to be able to be on the homeowners association board, to the homeowners association board, to the homeowners association board, to coach their kids little league game, to coach their kids little league game, to coach their kids little league game, to know their neighbors. So simplicity in know their neighbors. So simplicity in know their neighbors. So simplicity in terms of programming creates margin for terms of programming creates margin for terms of programming creates margin for mission. Uh so I think those mission. Uh so I think those mission. Uh so I think those conversations after Simple Church came conversations after Simple Church came conversations after Simple Church came out were good. Um, obviously it's not an out were good. Um, obviously it's not an out were good. Um, obviously it's not an inherent book, you know. Oh, yeah. It's inherent book, you know. Oh, yeah. It's inherent book, you know. Oh, yeah. It's it's it's it's >> totally fallible. It's I don't believe >> totally fallible. It's I don't believe >> totally fallible. It's I don't believe it's it's anywhere close to perfection, it's it's anywhere close to perfection, it's it's anywhere close to perfection, you know, but I think some principles you know, but I think some principles you know, but I think some principles are are are >> general principle applies. Complexity

>> general principle applies. Complexity >> general principle applies. Complexity still doesn't scale, still doesn't scale, still doesn't scale, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And uh and I think the church needs >> And uh and I think the church needs >> And uh and I think the church needs that. Eric, this is this has been just that. Eric, this is this has been just that. Eric, this is this has been just so much fun, so much fun, so much fun, >> man. It's been an honor, man. You can >> man. It's been an honor, man. You can >> man. It's been an honor, man. You can talk to me here anytime. We're we're in talk to me here anytime. We're we're in talk to me here anytime. We're we're in in our studio. It's in our studio. It's in our studio. It's >> We're here at Mariners and I'm so >> We're here at Mariners and I'm so >> We're here at Mariners and I'm so grateful for that. I love that you came, grateful for that. I love that you came, grateful for that. I love that you came, man. It means a lot that you're here. man. It means a lot that you're here. man. It means a lot that you're here. >> Well, it means a lot that you would host >> Well, it means a lot that you would host >> Well, it means a lot that you would host us. What um what is one word for church us. What um what is one word for church us. What um what is one word for church leaders? Not a single word, but like leaders? Not a single word, but like leaders? Not a single word, but like what's a word for church? Wow, you what's a word for church? Wow, you what's a word for church? Wow, you already used it. All right. Um no, already used it. All right. Um no, already used it. All right. Um no, what's a what's what's a piece of what's a what's what's a piece of what's a what's what's a piece of advice, a word you would have for church advice, a word you would have for church advice, a word you would have for church leaders listening today leaders listening today leaders listening today >> um that would either encourage them, >> um that would either encourage them, >> um that would either encourage them, challenge them, or help them to think challenge them, or help them to think challenge them, or help them to think differently. Your convictions Your convictions matter more than you realize because matter more than you realize because matter more than you realize because they they shape the whole they they shape the whole they they shape the whole church that you're leading, the staff church that you're leading, the staff church that you're leading, the staff team that you're pouring into. So be team that you're pouring into. So be team that you're pouring into. So be crystal clear on your convictions crystal clear on your convictions crystal clear on your convictions internally and then be able to internally and then be able to internally and then be able to articulate those to others because your articulate those to others because your articulate those to others because your convictions, your I this holy burden, convictions, your I this holy burden, convictions, your I this holy burden, this holy sense of this is why we're this holy sense of this is why we're this holy sense of this is why we're doing this that matters more than like doing this that matters more than like doing this that matters more than like here's the programs that we do or here's here's the programs that we do or here's here's the programs that we do or here's the systems that we're running. Have any the systems that we're running. Have any the systems that we're running. Have any sense of holy mission or holy sense of holy mission or holy sense of holy mission or holy conviction.

conviction. conviction. Be crystal clear on that. Receive it Be crystal clear on that. Receive it Be crystal clear on that. Receive it from the Lord. He wants to give that to from the Lord. He wants to give that to from the Lord. He wants to give that to you. you. you. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh joyfully receive it. Don't be afraid of joyfully receive it. Don't be afraid of joyfully receive it. Don't be afraid of your convictions. Lead with them. That's your convictions. Lead with them. That's your convictions. Lead with them. That's that's what inspires people. Lead with that's what inspires people. Lead with that's what inspires people. Lead with your convictions. your convictions. your convictions. >> I see a joy in you. >> I see a joy in you. >> I see a joy in you. >> Sweet. I want to see it. I see it in >> Sweet. I want to see it. I see it in >> Sweet. I want to see it. I see it in your marriage, too, cuz we spent a your marriage, too, cuz we spent a your marriage, too, cuz we spent a little bit of time. You know, little bit of time. You know, little bit of time. You know, >> she's the best, man. >> she's the best, man. >> she's the best, man. >> She really She's You have an amazing >> She really She's You have an amazing >> She really She's You have an amazing one. one. one. >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> What has kept Cuz you're pushing 50, you >> What has kept Cuz you're pushing 50, you >> What has kept Cuz you're pushing 50, you told me. told me. told me. >> Come on. >> Come on. >> Come on. >> All right. What has kept your joy alive? >> All right. What has kept your joy alive? >> All right. What has kept your joy alive? This is the age and our mutual late This is the age and our mutual late This is the age and our mutual late friend Tony Morgan. friend Tony Morgan. friend Tony Morgan. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He he and I used to talk about cynicism >> He he and I used to talk about cynicism >> He he and I used to talk about cynicism and he's like, "This does not get easier and he's like, "This does not get easier and he's like, "This does not get easier as you get older." as you get older." as you get older." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What has kept your joy? >> What has kept your joy? >> What has kept your joy? >> I still can't believe that Jesus saved >> I still can't believe that Jesus saved >> I still can't believe that Jesus saved me, you know? Yeah. me, you know? Yeah. me, you know? Yeah. >> So, I mean, I became a Christian end of >> So, I mean, I became a Christian end of >> So, I mean, I became a Christian end of my junior year in high school going into my junior year in high school going into my junior year in high school going into my senior year and I was totally I mean, my senior year and I was totally I mean, my senior year and I was totally I mean, I was I sold drugs. I was arrested. I I I was I sold drugs. I was arrested. I I I was I sold drugs. I was arrested. I I was I was a was I was a was I was a weward weward weward kid and Jesus rescued me and I don't kid and Jesus rescued me and I don't kid and Jesus rescued me and I don't think I've gotten over his grace. And so think I've gotten over his grace. And so think I've gotten over his grace. And so when I think of what I was and the when I think of what I was and the when I think of what I was and the trajectory that my life was on and I trajectory that my life was on and I trajectory that my life was on and I look at at what God's done for me, not look at at what God's done for me, not look at at what God's done for me, not only what he's blessed me with here, only what he's blessed me with here, only what he's blessed me with here, which he has. I have I love my which he has. I have I love my which he has. I have I love my daughters. I love my wife, but the fact daughters. I love my wife, but the fact daughters. I love my wife, but the fact that I'm just his, that I belong to him, that I'm just his, that I belong to him, that I'm just his, that I belong to him, and that he's committed to me, and that he's committed to me, and that he's committed to me, um,

um, um, I have a lot. I I I have I have I have a lot. I I I have I have I have a lot. I I I have I have everything from him. He's everything. He everything from him. He's everything. He everything from him. He's everything. He is everything. He's better than anything is everything. He's better than anything is everything. He's better than anything else. You know, you're here in else. You know, you're here in else. You know, you're here in California. You mentioned grace California. You mentioned grace California. You mentioned grace >> being that keeps you joyful. >> being that keeps you joyful. >> being that keeps you joyful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Earlier today, I interviewed Megan Fate >> Earlier today, I interviewed Megan Fate >> Earlier today, I interviewed Megan Fate Marshman. She talked a lot about grace. Marshman. She talked a lot about grace. Marshman. She talked a lot about grace. Does grace resonate in a place like Does grace resonate in a place like Does grace resonate in a place like California? And they understand what it California? And they understand what it California? And they understand what it is. For sure. is. For sure. is. For sure. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh because they're tired, you know, >> Uh because they're tired, you know, >> Uh because they're tired, you know, because you said it's achievement. Yeah. because you said it's achievement. Yeah. because you said it's achievement. Yeah. Because grace says you don't have to Because grace says you don't have to Because grace says you don't have to earn. earn. earn. >> I know you're trying to What are you >> I know you're trying to What are you >> I know you're trying to What are you What are you trying to earn? He's You What are you trying to earn? He's You What are you trying to earn? He's You just receive. You don't have to achieve. just receive. You don't have to achieve. just receive. You don't have to achieve. You just receive. Don't you want to just You just receive. Don't you want to just You just receive. Don't you want to just receive? Hasn't the achieving failed receive? Hasn't the achieving failed receive? Hasn't the achieving failed you? Don't you just want to receive what you? Don't you just want to receive what you? Don't you just want to receive what he's done for you? Yeah. When people get he's done for you? Yeah. When people get he's done for you? Yeah. When people get grace, it grace, it grace, it grace changes you. grace changes you. grace changes you. Well, you've written a lot of books. Uh Well, you've written a lot of books. Uh Well, you've written a lot of books. Uh you are uh doing an incredible job here you are uh doing an incredible job here you are uh doing an incredible job here at Mariners. Thanks, man. at Mariners. Thanks, man. at Mariners. Thanks, man. >> People want to connect with you. Is >> People want to connect with you. Is >> People want to connect with you. Is there a resource you want to direct them there a resource you want to direct them there a resource you want to direct them to? And where can they find you online to? And where can they find you online to? And where can they find you online these days?

these days? these days? >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Um I need to get back to blogging. I I used I need to get back to blogging. I I used I need to get back to blogging. I I used to do to do to do >> I checked your blog out. It's like you >> I checked your blog out. It's like you >> I checked your blog out. It's like you got to post a year or something like got to post a year or something like got to post a year or something like that. that. that. I'm preaching every week. So I still I I'm preaching every week. So I still I I'm preaching every week. So I still I still I still err.com. I I do have a still I still err.com. I I do have a still I still err.com. I I do have a book coming out. uh next book coming out. uh next book coming out. uh next September or October with Tindale on September or October with Tindale on September or October with Tindale on leadership. leadership. leadership. >> Oh, cool. And we're gonna look at you. >> Oh, cool. And we're gonna look at you. >> Oh, cool. And we're gonna look at you. >> Come back for that. >> Come back for that. >> Come back for that. >> I'd love to. I'd love to. It's gonna >> I'd love to. I'd love to. It's gonna >> I'd love to. I'd love to. It's gonna we're gonna look at Nehemiah and the we're gonna look at Nehemiah and the we're gonna look at Nehemiah and the intermingling roots beneath the surface. intermingling roots beneath the surface. intermingling roots beneath the surface. So, not just vision, but what's the So, not just vision, but what's the So, not just vision, but what's the roots beneath the surface that create roots beneath the surface that create roots beneath the surface that create vision? Not just servantthood, but vision? Not just servantthood, but vision? Not just servantthood, but what's the roots beneath the surface what's the roots beneath the surface what's the roots beneath the surface that create? So, it's going to be called that create? So, it's going to be called that create? So, it's going to be called the rooted leader. And I'm excited about the rooted leader. And I'm excited about the rooted leader. And I'm excited about that. I I've already turned in the that. I I've already turned in the that. I I've already turned in the manuscript. You know how it is. Oh, manuscript. You know how it is. Oh, manuscript. You know how it is. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's already in, but it is yeah. I mean, it's already in, but it is yeah. I mean, it's already in, but it is not out forever. The not out forever. The not out forever. The >> baby's not born for a while. Yeah. Okay. >> baby's not born for a while. Yeah. Okay. >> baby's not born for a while. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's great. Eric, thank you so Well, that's great. Eric, thank you so Well, that's great. Eric, thank you so much. much. much. >> Thank you, man.