Fixing Dysfunction and Building a 22,000 Person Church with David Ashcraft

Well, before we jump into today's Well, before we jump into today's episode, I'm here with our monthly state episode, I'm here with our monthly state episode, I'm here with our monthly state of the church trends update with David of the church trends update with David of the church trends update with David Kinnaman, Barna CEO. David, it's good to Kinnaman, Barna CEO. David, it's good to Kinnaman, Barna CEO. David, it's good to have you. Hey Carey, good to see you. have you. Hey Carey, good to see you. have you. Hey Carey, good to see you. Nice to be here. So, we're talking about Nice to be here. So, we're talking about Nice to be here. So, we're talking about family. I was digging into some of the family. I was digging into some of the family. I was digging into some of the data that you did as you surveyed data that you did as you surveyed data that you did as you surveyed marriage and family and it it really marriage and family and it it really marriage and family and it it really blew my mind. It challenged some blew my mind. It challenged some blew my mind. It challenged some assumptions that I had. Yeah, well, assumptions that I had. Yeah, well, assumptions that I had. Yeah, well, we're so glad to hear that. That's what we're so glad to hear that. That's what we're so glad to hear that. That's what we're here for. we're here for. we're here for. That's right. Blowing up assumptions That's right. Blowing up assumptions That's right. Blowing up assumptions everywhere, right? As often as we can. everywhere, right? As often as we can. everywhere, right? As often as we can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are you finding, David? Yeah, so What are you finding, David? Yeah, so What are you finding, David? Yeah, so the last uh 2 years we've been working the last uh 2 years we've been working the last uh 2 years we've been working on a major study on family and marriage on a major study on family and marriage on a major study on family and marriage and for those of you might be watching, and for those of you might be watching, and for those of you might be watching, this is the cover of the new report this is the cover of the new report this is the cover of the new report called the state of today's family, uh called the state of today's family, uh called the state of today's family, uh how households are changing and how the how households are changing and how the how households are changing and how the church can support their resilience. church can support their resilience. church can support their resilience. It's a major, major piece of research. It's a major, major piece of research. It's a major, major piece of research. We've been working on it for a while and We've been working on it for a while and We've been working on it for a while and uh we're actually just uncovering some uh we're actually just uncovering some uh we're actually just uncovering some incredible findings, but um we're we're incredible findings, but um we're we're incredible findings, but um we're we're here to talk a little bit about some of here to talk a little bit about some of here to talk a little bit about some of the the the key findings and the first the the the key findings and the first the the the key findings and the first is that the structure of family isn't is that the structure of family isn't is that the structure of family isn't changing as fast as we think, but the changing as fast as we think, but the changing as fast as we think, but the experience that we have of family is experience that we have of family is experience that we have of family is changing. So, you know, we talk a lot changing. So, you know, we talk a lot changing. So, you know, we talk a lot about well, families are different, about well, families are different, about well, families are different, they're so different and they are, but they're so different and they are, but they're so different and they are, but they're not actually that much different they're not actually that much different they're not actually that much different in the last 20 years than they were 20 in the last 20 years than they were 20 in the last 20 years than they were 20 years ago. And I believe what has really years ago. And I believe what has really years ago. And I believe what has really taken place is there's sort of three taken place is there's sort of three taken place is there's sort of three major trends. Number one, the digital major trends. Number one, the digital major trends. Number one, the digital environment has reshaped parenting and environment has reshaped parenting and environment has reshaped parenting and relationships. So, uh families are relationships. So, uh families are relationships. So, uh families are different because the tech world, the different because the tech world, the different because the tech world, the the digital con- context that we're in the digital con- context that we're in the digital con- context that we're in is changing how we get input and where is changing how we get input and where is changing how we get input and where we go to find relationships. So, that's we go to find relationships. So, that's we go to find relationships. So, that's number one. Number two, uh we're more number one. Number two, uh we're more number one. Number two, uh we're more aware today than we were 20 years ago of

aware today than we were 20 years ago of aware today than we were 20 years ago of the diverse family structures. So, they the diverse family structures. So, they the diverse family structures. So, they were pretty diverse even 20 years ago, were pretty diverse even 20 years ago, were pretty diverse even 20 years ago, blended families, single parents, uh you blended families, single parents, uh you blended families, single parents, uh you know, widows, widowers, all the rest. Um know, widows, widowers, all the rest. Um know, widows, widowers, all the rest. Um what has changed over the last 50, 70, what has changed over the last 50, 70, what has changed over the last 50, 70, 50 to 70 years is that we're much less 50 to 70 years is that we're much less 50 to 70 years is that we're much less likely to be a married only society. So, likely to be a married only society. So, likely to be a married only society. So, you know, 70 years ago, seven out of 10 you know, 70 years ago, seven out of 10 you know, 70 years ago, seven out of 10 Americans were married. Now, it's just Americans were married. Now, it's just Americans were married. Now, it's just less than half. But again, the family less than half. But again, the family less than half. But again, the family structures haven't been changing as much structures haven't been changing as much structures haven't been changing as much as we think, but our experience of them as we think, but our experience of them as we think, but our experience of them has for digital diversity. And the third has for digital diversity. And the third has for digital diversity. And the third is this idea of the language of mental is this idea of the language of mental is this idea of the language of mental health and therapeutic frameworks. Like health and therapeutic frameworks. Like health and therapeutic frameworks. Like everyone is a therapist now. Everyone everyone is a therapist now. Everyone everyone is a therapist now. Everyone has a language for this for better and has a language for this for better and has a language for this for better and for worse. And so, I think those are for worse. And so, I think those are for worse. And so, I think those are three reasons why our experience of three reasons why our experience of three reasons why our experience of family is being redefined in our current family is being redefined in our current family is being redefined in our current context. So, the report delves into a context. So, the report delves into a context. So, the report delves into a lot of those uh layers and helps people lot of those uh layers and helps people lot of those uh layers and helps people really understand some of the current really understand some of the current really understand some of the current trends. trends. trends. Well, the thing that got me when I was Well, the thing that got me when I was Well, the thing that got me when I was digging into the data, David, is I think digging into the data, David, is I think digging into the data, David, is I think often as a preacher, you have an often as a preacher, you have an often as a preacher, you have an assumption of who you're trying to assumption of who you're trying to assumption of who you're trying to reach. And when I looked at it, it's reach. And when I looked at it, it's reach. And when I looked at it, it's like, oh, this is very different than like, oh, this is very different than like, oh, this is very different than the picture in my head. Just, you know, the picture in my head. Just, you know, the picture in my head. Just, you know, suburbs, etc. So, is that what you saw suburbs, etc. So, is that what you saw suburbs, etc. So, is that what you saw as well?

as well? as well? >> were some of the things What were some >> were some of the things What were some >> were some of the things What were some of the things that that struck you? of the things that that struck you? of the things that that struck you? >> thought, you know, when you think about >> thought, you know, when you think about >> thought, you know, when you think about we're trying to reach uh people who are we're trying to reach uh people who are we're trying to reach uh people who are married with kids, married with kids, married with kids, um isn't the majority of families not um isn't the majority of families not um isn't the majority of families not like that anymore? Like the majority are like that anymore? Like the majority are like that anymore? Like the majority are are are not families with kids living at are are not families with kids living at are are not families with kids living at home in America. Yeah, right. So, so home in America. Yeah, right. So, so home in America. Yeah, right. So, so that that's true and and I think part of that that's true and and I think part of that that's true and and I think part of what's interesting is that what's interesting is that what's interesting is that the church is working best for married the church is working best for married the church is working best for married dads with children, which is dads with children, which is dads with children, which is mind-blowing. Um it's working least mind-blowing. Um it's working least mind-blowing. Um it's working least well, well, well, but it's working least well for single but it's working least well for single but it's working least well for single moms and and and for singles in general. moms and and and for singles in general. moms and and and for singles in general. So, there is this real interesting kind So, there is this real interesting kind So, there is this real interesting kind of overview of the kind of ways in which of overview of the kind of ways in which of overview of the kind of ways in which And and listen, most pastors are married And and listen, most pastors are married And and listen, most pastors are married who have had children or have children who have had children or have children who have had children or have children at home. So, there's a real sense in at home. So, there's a real sense in at home. So, there's a real sense in which um our our audience, I don't like which um our our audience, I don't like which um our our audience, I don't like to use those terms, but just when you to use those terms, but just when you to use those terms, but just when you think about the people in in the room think about the people in in the room think about the people in in the room are are actually mirroring some of what are are actually mirroring some of what are are actually mirroring some of what a a married man might experience as a a a married man might experience as a a a married man might experience as a pastor. So, we've got to expand our pastor. So, we've got to expand our pastor. So, we've got to expand our understanding of family and and then understanding of family and and then understanding of family and and then speak to those different segments, um speak to those different segments, um speak to those different segments, um not because the gospel changes, but not because the gospel changes, but not because the gospel changes, but because each person's experience of what because each person's experience of what because each person's experience of what it means to be in a relationship and a it means to be in a relationship and a it means to be in a relationship and a in a household and a family is changing.

in a household and a family is changing. in a household and a family is changing. And and that leads me to the other major And and that leads me to the other major And and that leads me to the other major finding from the study, which is that uh finding from the study, which is that uh finding from the study, which is that uh while there's a lot of discussion around while there's a lot of discussion around while there's a lot of discussion around around Gen Z and what they want out of around Gen Z and what they want out of around Gen Z and what they want out of marriage, they are definitely rethinking marriage, they are definitely rethinking marriage, they are definitely rethinking family and whether you need to be family and whether you need to be family and whether you need to be married to have kids. However, 78% of married to have kids. However, 78% of married to have kids. However, 78% of Gen Z, these are 25 and under, want to Gen Z, these are 25 and under, want to Gen Z, these are 25 and under, want to be married someday. So, 78% still want be married someday. So, 78% still want be married someday. So, 78% still want to be married. And 81% say they still to be married. And 81% say they still to be married. And 81% say they still believe in the value of marriage, but believe in the value of marriage, but believe in the value of marriage, but they're actually less likely to say, for they're actually less likely to say, for they're actually less likely to say, for example, that a child should be raised example, that a child should be raised example, that a child should be raised in a context of a marriage, that it's in a context of a marriage, that it's in a context of a marriage, that it's essential for a child to be raised in essential for a child to be raised in essential for a child to be raised in the context of a marriage. Uh they're the context of a marriage. Uh they're the context of a marriage. Uh they're much less likely to value some of the much less likely to value some of the much less likely to value some of the traditional statements about marriage. traditional statements about marriage. traditional statements about marriage. So, it's interesting how they still have So, it's interesting how they still have So, it's interesting how they still have these this kind of muscle memory of these this kind of muscle memory of these this kind of muscle memory of traditional marriage, uh but they're not traditional marriage, uh but they're not traditional marriage, uh but they're not maybe building their life towards those maybe building their life towards those maybe building their life towards those kinds of outcomes at quite the same pace kinds of outcomes at quite the same pace kinds of outcomes at quite the same pace or in the same level of priority as or in the same level of priority as or in the same level of priority as previous generations. previous generations. previous generations. I got to just thank you, David. I mean, I got to just thank you, David. I mean, I got to just thank you, David. I mean, we've done 12 of these updates now and I we've done 12 of these updates now and I we've done 12 of these updates now and I don't remember a more data-rich year don't remember a more data-rich year don't remember a more data-rich year than 2025. And just thank you for all than 2025. And just thank you for all than 2025. And just thank you for all the work you and your team do. It really the work you and your team do. It really the work you and your team do. It really helps us, as you say, data-informed helps us, as you say, data-informed helps us, as you say, data-informed decisions makes a big difference. So, decisions makes a big difference. So, decisions makes a big difference. So, you can toggle back into all of the you can toggle back into all of the you can toggle back into all of the reports that we've done over the course reports that we've done over the course reports that we've done over the course of this year, one a month. Uh just go to of this year, one a month. Uh just go to of this year, one a month. Uh just go to stateofthechurch.com/carey.

stateofthechurch.com/carey. stateofthechurch.com/carey. That's stateofthechurch.com/c That's stateofthechurch.com/c That's stateofthechurch.com/c a r e y. You can access this and a whole a r e y. You can access this and a whole a r e y. You can access this and a whole lot more over there. David, thank you. lot more over there. David, thank you. lot more over there. David, thank you. Appreciated being here. Thanks so much. Appreciated being here. Thanks so much. Appreciated being here. Thanks so much. And now to today's episode. Abe, uh And now to today's episode. Abe, uh And now to today's episode. Abe, uh pretty much every week then would come pretty much every week then would come pretty much every week then would come and he would stuff the boxes before and he would stuff the boxes before and he would stuff the boxes before church started with his church started with his church started with his view on me and what I've done or said view on me and what I've done or said view on me and what I've done or said the what I said in the last week's the what I said in the last week's the what I said in the last week's message that was wrong. And so, that was message that was wrong. And so, that was message that was wrong. And so, that was kind of the fodder every every Sunday kind of the fodder every every Sunday kind of the fodder every every Sunday morning people come in and you know, morning people come in and you know, morning people come in and you know, again, you want to know what the news again, you want to know what the news again, you want to know what the news is. So, you go back before the service is. So, you go back before the service is. So, you go back before the service starts and you get your mail out of the starts and you get your mail out of the starts and you get your mail out of the mailbox and they were always getting mailbox and they were always getting mailbox and they were always getting Abe's comments. Welcome to the Carey Abe's comments. Welcome to the Carey Abe's comments. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. It's Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. It's Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. It's Carey here. I hope our time together today here. I hope our time together today here. I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. helps you thrive in life and leadership. helps you thrive in life and leadership. Hey, whether you're watching or whether Hey, whether you're watching or whether Hey, whether you're watching or whether you're listening, wherever you are, I you're listening, wherever you are, I you're listening, wherever you are, I hope this finds you well. This is coming hope this finds you well. This is coming hope this finds you well. This is coming to you from downtown Franklin, to you from downtown Franklin, to you from downtown Franklin, Tennessee, my temporary studio. And I've Tennessee, my temporary studio. And I've Tennessee, my temporary studio. And I've got David Ashcraft on the show. He is got David Ashcraft on the show. He is got David Ashcraft on the show. He is the long-time senior pastor of LCBC, now the long-time senior pastor of LCBC, now the long-time senior pastor of LCBC, now known as Lives Changed by Christ Church known as Lives Changed by Christ Church known as Lives Changed by Christ Church in Pennsylvania. They grew from a in Pennsylvania. They grew from a in Pennsylvania. They grew from a handful of people to over 22,000 today.

handful of people to over 22,000 today. handful of people to over 22,000 today. We talk about the early days of We talk about the early days of We talk about the early days of ministry. Dysfunctional. Like you want ministry. Dysfunctional. Like you want ministry. Dysfunctional. Like you want you lead a small church or have been you lead a small church or have been you lead a small church or have been involved with a small church, you want involved with a small church, you want involved with a small church, you want to talk about dysfunction? to talk about dysfunction? to talk about dysfunction? We go there. Uh he can empathize. I can We go there. Uh he can empathize. I can We go there. Uh he can empathize. I can definitely empathize. Talk about definitely empathize. Talk about definitely empathize. Talk about scaling, LCBC, succession, and then his scaling, LCBC, succession, and then his scaling, LCBC, succession, and then his new role at the Global Leadership Summit new role at the Global Leadership Summit new role at the Global Leadership Summit and Global Leadership Network. I think and Global Leadership Network. I think and Global Leadership Network. I think you're really going to enjoy it. So, you're really going to enjoy it. So, you're really going to enjoy it. So, thank you so much for listening and thank you so much for listening and thank you so much for listening and let's dive right into my conversation let's dive right into my conversation let's dive right into my conversation with David Ashcraft. David, it's so good with David Ashcraft. David, it's so good with David Ashcraft. David, it's so good to have you on the podcast. Welcome. to have you on the podcast. Welcome. to have you on the podcast. Welcome. Thank you, Carey. Great to join you Thank you, Carey. Great to join you Thank you, Carey. Great to join you today. Appreciate it. Yeah, long today. Appreciate it. Yeah, long today. Appreciate it. Yeah, long overdue. Long overdue. And I feel like overdue. Long overdue. And I feel like overdue. Long overdue. And I feel like we're uh couple of leaders who have we're uh couple of leaders who have we're uh couple of leaders who have almost connected so, so many times or almost connected so, so many times or almost connected so, so many times or connected very briefly. So, it's nice to connected very briefly. So, it's nice to connected very briefly. So, it's nice to actually sit down and do a deeper dive. actually sit down and do a deeper dive. actually sit down and do a deeper dive. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, I think Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, I think Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, I think we're definitely similar circles that we're definitely similar circles that we're definitely similar circles that we've been traveling in and we've we've been traveling in and we've we've been traveling in and we've brushed up against each other a few brushed up against each other a few brushed up against each other a few times, but not really got to talk about times, but not really got to talk about times, but not really got to talk about them. them. them. >> spoken at LCBC uh for a conference a >> spoken at LCBC uh for a conference a >> spoken at LCBC uh for a conference a couple of times, but couple of times, but couple of times, but >> Yes. Uh didn't didn't cross paths. So, >> Yes. Uh didn't didn't cross paths. So, >> Yes. Uh didn't didn't cross paths. So, I'd like to go back to cuz you know, I'd like to go back to cuz you know, I'd like to go back to cuz you know, yours was What year did you start at yours was What year did you start at yours was What year did you start at LCBC? So, I started in 1991 and then LCBC? So, I started in 1991 and then LCBC? So, I started in 1991 and then stayed for 32 years. Yeah, yeah, which stayed for 32 years. Yeah, yeah, which stayed for 32 years. Yeah, yeah, which is awesome.

is awesome. is awesome. What Let's start here. What did you What Let's start here. What did you What Let's start here. What did you learn learn learn over 32 years of ministry? What did you over 32 years of ministry? What did you over 32 years of ministry? What did you learn or learn about longevity? Because learn or learn about longevity? Because learn or learn about longevity? Because that seems to be that seems to be that seems to be a challenge for a lot of leaders these a challenge for a lot of leaders these a challenge for a lot of leaders these days is longevity. Either staying in one days is longevity. Either staying in one days is longevity. Either staying in one place a long time or staying place a long time or staying place a long time or staying successfully without being disqualified successfully without being disqualified successfully without being disqualified in a long place in one place for a long in a long place in one place for a long in a long place in one place for a long time. time. time. >> What did you learn about longevity? >> What did you learn about longevity? >> What did you learn about longevity? So, Carey, I am a huge proponent of So, Carey, I am a huge proponent of So, Carey, I am a huge proponent of longevity for pastors. I think that we longevity for pastors. I think that we longevity for pastors. I think that we tend to quit too soon. We hit rough tend to quit too soon. We hit rough tend to quit too soon. We hit rough waters and we bail and miraculously, it waters and we bail and miraculously, it waters and we bail and miraculously, it sounds like it's what you always hear is sounds like it's what you always hear is sounds like it's what you always hear is God's calling them to someplace greener God's calling them to someplace greener God's calling them to someplace greener and it's always a warmer climate and a and it's always a warmer climate and a and it's always a warmer climate and a prettier climate and and I think we bail prettier climate and and I think we bail prettier climate and and I think we bail out too soon. And so, when I came to out too soon. And so, when I came to out too soon. And so, when I came to LCBC in 1991, I had made a commitment to LCBC in 1991, I had made a commitment to LCBC in 1991, I had made a commitment to God to say, I won't go looking anyplace God to say, I won't go looking anyplace God to say, I won't go looking anyplace else. And I came out of Dallas, Dallas else. And I came out of Dallas, Dallas else. And I came out of Dallas, Dallas Seminary background and I just watched Seminary background and I just watched Seminary background and I just watched pastors all the time constantly looking pastors all the time constantly looking pastors all the time constantly looking for the next biggest thing or the next for the next biggest thing or the next for the next biggest thing or the next step forward for them. And I didn't want step forward for them. And I didn't want step forward for them. And I didn't want to play that game. And so, I just said, to play that game. And so, I just said, to play that game. And so, I just said, God, I'll stay as long as you want me God, I'll stay as long as you want me God, I'll stay as long as you want me to. I won't go looking. If you send to. I won't go looking. If you send to. I won't go looking. If you send something my way and and make it real something my way and and make it real something my way and and make it real clear you want me to move, but I won't clear you want me to move, but I won't clear you want me to move, but I won't ever go looking. And so, I didn't. So, ever go looking. And so, I didn't. So, ever go looking. And so, I didn't. So, so what If I can interrupt, why why did so what If I can interrupt, why why did so what If I can interrupt, why why did you Why was that so clear to you you Why was that so clear to you you Why was that so clear to you as a young leader in 1991? Cuz that's as a young leader in 1991? Cuz that's as a young leader in 1991? Cuz that's not obvious to everybody.

not obvious to everybody. not obvious to everybody. Well, again, watching So, I was uh my Well, again, watching So, I was uh my Well, again, watching So, I was uh my dad was a pastor in Dallas. I was on his dad was a pastor in Dallas. I was on his dad was a pastor in Dallas. I was on his staff for about 10 years. And so, I staff for about 10 years. And so, I staff for about 10 years. And so, I watched Dallas grads that I had grown up watched Dallas grads that I had grown up watched Dallas grads that I had grown up with. They were in our church when I was with. They were in our church when I was with. They were in our church when I was a kid. I watched them go from church to a kid. I watched them go from church to a kid. I watched them go from church to church to church. And then even my church to church. And then even my church to church. And then even my classmates go from church to church. And classmates go from church to church. And classmates go from church to church. And it was almost an understood thing, it was almost an understood thing, it was almost an understood thing, Carey, that if you went to a church of Carey, that if you went to a church of Carey, that if you went to a church of 200, then within four, five years, you 200, then within four, five years, you 200, then within four, five years, you start looking for a church of four or start looking for a church of four or start looking for a church of four or 500. And then several years later, you 500. And then several years later, you 500. And then several years later, you look for a church of a thousand. And it look for a church of a thousand. And it look for a church of a thousand. And it just didn't seem right to me. And I just didn't seem right to me. And I just didn't seem right to me. And I would always listen to them say, you would always listen to them say, you would always listen to them say, you know, I know, I know, I went through some hard times, but talked went through some hard times, but talked went through some hard times, but talked to God and God just called me someplace to God and God just called me someplace to God and God just called me someplace else. And else. And else. And you know, I don't know. Sometimes I'm you know, I don't know. Sometimes I'm you know, I don't know. Sometimes I'm not sure it's a calling, but that was not sure it's a calling, but that was not sure it's a calling, but that was what the way it was always expressed. what the way it was always expressed. what the way it was always expressed. So, I just didn't want to fall into that So, I just didn't want to fall into that So, I just didn't want to fall into that game and do that. Well, I get it. game and do that. Well, I get it. game and do that. Well, I get it. Sometimes calling is uh like we use Sometimes calling is uh like we use Sometimes calling is uh like we use calling as a mask for calling as a mask for calling as a mask for other issues that we don't want to talk other issues that we don't want to talk other issues that we don't want to talk about or we don't want other people to about or we don't want other people to about or we don't want other people to know about. It's amazing how many times know about. It's amazing how many times know about. It's amazing how many times somebody almost got fired and then they somebody almost got fired and then they somebody almost got fired and then they got called somewhere else or they got got called somewhere else or they got got called somewhere else or they got bored, but they got called somewhere bored, but they got called somewhere bored, but they got called somewhere else. Like you saw that early on. Yeah, else. Like you saw that early on. Yeah, else. Like you saw that early on. Yeah, exactly. And so, I was a big fan of John exactly. And so, I was a big fan of John exactly. And so, I was a big fan of John Maxwell early on back at that time as Maxwell early on back at that time as Maxwell early on back at that time as well. And he would always talk about the well. And he would always talk about the well. And he would always talk about the average length of a pastor and he'd talk average length of a pastor and he'd talk average length of a pastor and he'd talk about student ministry guys being right about student ministry guys being right about student ministry guys being right around two, two and a half years. And he around two, two and a half years. And he around two, two and a half years. And he would talk about the storm clouds that would talk about the storm clouds that would talk about the storm clouds that were there. And the tendency was before were there. And the tendency was before were there. And the tendency was before the storm had fully passed, even though the storm had fully passed, even though the storm had fully passed, even though it might just be right on the edge, the it might just be right on the edge, the it might just be right on the edge, the pastors or student men, he would talk pastors or student men, he would talk pastors or student men, he would talk about would bail out of their situation.

about would bail out of their situation. about would bail out of their situation. If they waited just a little bit longer, If they waited just a little bit longer, If they waited just a little bit longer, the storm would have passed. They could the storm would have passed. They could the storm would have passed. They could enjoy what they were meant to enjoy. enjoy what they were meant to enjoy. enjoy what they were meant to enjoy. Mhm. And I experienced that at LCBC. My Mhm. And I experienced that at LCBC. My Mhm. And I experienced that at LCBC. My first five or six years were incredibly first five or six years were incredibly first five or six years were incredibly difficult. Um within six months of my difficult. Um within six months of my difficult. Um within six months of my coming to the church and again it was a coming to the church and again it was a coming to the church and again it was a small church, 150 people. Cuz you didn't small church, 150 people. Cuz you didn't small church, 150 people. Cuz you didn't start it, right? You you probably start it, right? You you probably start it, right? You you probably >> about three and a half years in. So 150 >> about three and a half years in. So 150 >> about three and a half years in. So 150 >> So it was a church plant. Yeah, it was a >> So it was a church plant. Yeah, it was a >> So it was a church plant. Yeah, it was a fairly new church. They had one pastor, fairly new church. They had one pastor, fairly new church. They had one pastor, not the one who started it. They'd not the one who started it. They'd not the one who started it. They'd called a pastor when he was when the called a pastor when he was when the called a pastor when he was when the church was about a year old. He lasted church was about a year old. He lasted church was about a year old. He lasted about a year and a half, two years. They about a year and a half, two years. They about a year and a half, two years. They dismissed him and so they'd gone through dismissed him and so they'd gone through dismissed him and so they'd gone through some turmoil. And um when I came being a some turmoil. And um when I came being a some turmoil. And um when I came being a Texan, never thought that I'd move to Texan, never thought that I'd move to Texan, never thought that I'd move to the northeast. All my friends said, "Oh, the northeast. All my friends said, "Oh, the northeast. All my friends said, "Oh, you're moving to the rust belt. What are you're moving to the rust belt. What are you're moving to the rust belt. What are you doing?" Mhm. you doing?" Mhm. you doing?" Mhm. >> And uh and so we came as Texans not sure >> And uh and so we came as Texans not sure >> And uh and so we came as Texans not sure what we were going to experience, but we what we were going to experience, but we what we were going to experience, but we fell in love with the people here. And fell in love with the people here. And fell in love with the people here. And so the first five or six years um six so the first five or six years um six so the first five or six years um six months into my time at LCBC, the first months into my time at LCBC, the first months into my time at LCBC, the first board chairman uh stood up in the middle board chairman uh stood up in the middle board chairman uh stood up in the middle of a meeting and his tendency was to of a meeting and his tendency was to of a meeting and his tendency was to when things weren't going his way, he'd when things weren't going his way, he'd when things weren't going his way, he'd throw a little tantrum. And then the throw a little tantrum. And then the throw a little tantrum. And then the rest of the board, there were only five rest of the board, there were only five rest of the board, there were only five or six board members, but they would all or six board members, but they would all or six board members, but they would all acquiesce and go his way. And and they acquiesce and go his way. And and they acquiesce and go his way. And and they would move on. And so he did that in a would move on. And so he did that in a would move on. And so he did that in a meeting six months in. It was October. I meeting six months in. It was October. I meeting six months in. It was October. I can still picture it happening. And he can still picture it happening. And he can still picture it happening. And he stood up from the table and it was a stood up from the table and it was a stood up from the table and it was a small church and in a small church small church and in a small church small church and in a small church everybody has a key to the building. And everybody has a key to the building. And everybody has a key to the building. And so he stands up and he pulls his so he stands up and he pulls his so he stands up and he pulls his keychain out from his pocket. He keychain out from his pocket. He keychain out from his pocket. He unravels the key to the church, plops it unravels the key to the church, plops it unravels the key to the church, plops it on the table, says, "You don't need me on the table, says, "You don't need me on the table, says, "You don't need me anymore. You got David." He walked out.

anymore. You got David." He walked out. anymore. You got David." He walked out. And um And um And um I don't even remember what the situation I don't even remember what the situation I don't even remember what the situation was, but I think it probably was over a was, but I think it probably was over a was, but I think it probably was over a control issue and and when he threw his control issue and and when he threw his control issue and and when he threw his little tantrum that night, the rest of little tantrum that night, the rest of little tantrum that night, the rest of the board didn't go his way. And so that the board didn't go his way. And so that the board didn't go his way. And so that I think is what kind of drove him away. I think is what kind of drove him away. I think is what kind of drove him away. And about a year later, the next board And about a year later, the next board And about a year later, the next board chairman did essentially the exact same chairman did essentially the exact same chairman did essentially the exact same thing and another one did the same thing and another one did the same thing and another one did the same thing. And it was always thing. And it was always thing. And it was always Yeah, I don't even remember the issues Yeah, I don't even remember the issues Yeah, I don't even remember the issues so much, Carey, other than we were just so much, Carey, other than we were just so much, Carey, other than we were just struggling to figure out who we were. struggling to figure out who we were. struggling to figure out who we were. That was 1991. So the music battles were That was 1991. So the music battles were That was 1991. So the music battles were going on. going on. going on. Within six weeks of my time at LCBC, a Within six weeks of my time at LCBC, a Within six weeks of my time at LCBC, a man named Abe came into my office and he man named Abe came into my office and he man named Abe came into my office and he said, "If we don't stop playing those said, "If we don't stop playing those said, "If we don't stop playing those choruses, then everybody that gives choruses, then everybody that gives choruses, then everybody that gives financially to the church is going to financially to the church is going to financially to the church is going to quit giving." It was choruses in 1991. I quit giving." It was choruses in 1991. I quit giving." It was choruses in 1991. I remember that, man. And that was that remember that, man. And that was that remember that, man. And that was that was revolutionary. was revolutionary. was revolutionary. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Pretty radical. Choruses from the '70s. >> Pretty radical. Choruses from the '70s. >> Pretty radical. Choruses from the '70s. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So he said Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So he said Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So he said everyone's like you're talking to every everyone's like you're talking to every everyone's like you're talking to every small church pastor in America right small church pastor in America right small church pastor in America right now. Control now. Control now. Control taking the keys away, quitting, taking the keys away, quitting, taking the keys away, quitting, um manipulation. um manipulation. um manipulation. We're going to if you do this, then We're going to if you do this, then We're going to if you do this, then we're going to withdraw the giving and we're going to withdraw the giving and we're going to withdraw the giving and everything like that. So what happened everything like that. So what happened everything like that. So what happened with Abe? So I just said, "Abe, I with Abe? So I just said, "Abe, I with Abe? So I just said, "Abe, I appreciate what you're saying, but this appreciate what you're saying, but this appreciate what you're saying, but this is what the board has asked me to come is what the board has asked me to come is what the board has asked me to come and do. And so unless the board asked me and do. And so unless the board asked me and do. And so unless the board asked me to change, I can't do that and won't do to change, I can't do that and won't do to change, I can't do that and won't do that." So he left and uh told everybody that." So he left and uh told everybody that." So he left and uh told everybody that he talked to that um don't listen that he talked to that um don't listen that he talked to that um don't listen bother talking to David. He won't listen bother talking to David. He won't listen bother talking to David. He won't listen to you anyway. And became my greatest to you anyway. And became my greatest to you anyway. And became my greatest nemesis really. And so again, small nemesis really. And so again, small nemesis really. And so again, small church, country church. Our town is only church, country church. Our town is only church, country church. Our town is only about four to 5,000 people. And at the about four to 5,000 people. And at the about four to 5,000 people. And at the back back then, all small churches had back back then, all small churches had back back then, all small churches had mailboxes, little cubbies in the back

mailboxes, little cubbies in the back mailboxes, little cubbies in the back hallway. This is before email or hallway. This is before email or hallway. This is before email or anything that way. I remember that. anything that way. I remember that. anything that way. I remember that. >> information. Yeah, you'd stuff all the >> information. Yeah, you'd stuff all the >> information. Yeah, you'd stuff all the information. And so instead of just information. And so instead of just information. And so instead of just >> Save on postage. >> Save on postage. >> Save on postage. Exactly. And so Abe um pretty much every Exactly. And so Abe um pretty much every Exactly. And so Abe um pretty much every week then would come and he would stuff week then would come and he would stuff week then would come and he would stuff the boxes before church started with his the boxes before church started with his the boxes before church started with his view on me and what I've done or said view on me and what I've done or said view on me and what I've done or said the what I said in the last week's the what I said in the last week's the what I said in the last week's message that was wrong. And so that was message that was wrong. And so that was message that was wrong. And so that was kind of the fodder every every Sunday kind of the fodder every every Sunday kind of the fodder every every Sunday morning people come in and you you again morning people come in and you you again morning people come in and you you again you want to know what the news is. So you want to know what the news is. So you want to know what the news is. So you go back before the service starts you go back before the service starts you go back before the service starts and you get your mail out of the mailbox and you get your mail out of the mailbox and you get your mail out of the mailbox and they were always getting Abe's and they were always getting Abe's and they were always getting Abe's comments. comments. comments. And um so that was like I said, five or And um so that was like I said, five or And um so that was like I said, five or six years of that. When we had grown six years of that. When we had grown six years of that. When we had grown from 150 to about 320 people, we were from 150 to about 320 people, we were from 150 to about 320 people, we were going to hire the next the only other going to hire the next the only other going to hire the next the only other staff person. And when I came, Carey, I staff person. And when I came, Carey, I staff person. And when I came, Carey, I was the senior pastor, but I was the was the senior pastor, but I was the was the senior pastor, but I was the only pastor. I was the only staff only pastor. I was the only staff only pastor. I was the only staff member. member. member. And so we were going to hire And so we were going to hire And so we were going to hire >> No, so I don't know why I was the senior >> No, so I don't know why I was the senior >> No, so I don't know why I was the senior pastor. But but anyway, pastor. But but anyway, pastor. But but anyway, we were going to hire um a we were going to hire um a we were going to hire um a worship leader. And back then, if we had worship leader. And back then, if we had worship leader. And back then, if we had a congregational meeting, small church, a congregational meeting, small church, a congregational meeting, small church, everybody showed up because there were everybody showed up because there were everybody showed up because there were going to be fireworks. And so we're going to be fireworks. And so we're going to be fireworks. And so we're talking about this worship leader we're talking about this worship leader we're talking about this worship leader we're going to hire and um Abe stands up the going to hire and um Abe stands up the going to hire and um Abe stands up the meeting and says, "Why would we hire meeting and says, "Why would we hire meeting and says, "Why would we hire anybody? Nobody could work with David anybody? Nobody could work with David anybody? Nobody could work with David anyway." And it was just that kind of anyway." And it was just that kind of anyway." And it was just that kind of contentious spirit for the first four, contentious spirit for the first four, contentious spirit for the first four, five, six years. And we were still five, six years. And we were still five, six years. And we were still growing. So we grew to in that first growing. So we grew to in that first growing. So we grew to in that first five or six years about 600 people.

five or six years about 600 people. five or six years about 600 people. Somewhere along the way, we quit talking Somewhere along the way, we quit talking Somewhere along the way, we quit talking about what we wanted to do and we just about what we wanted to do and we just about what we wanted to do and we just started doing it. And there was a shift started doing it. And there was a shift started doing it. And there was a shift there. There was I think it was a shift there. There was I think it was a shift there. There was I think it was a shift in the culture and maybe I outlasted in the culture and maybe I outlasted in the culture and maybe I outlasted Abe, though Abe stayed in the church for Abe, though Abe stayed in the church for Abe, though Abe stayed in the church for I don't know, seven or eight years and I don't know, seven or eight years and I don't know, seven or eight years and finally drifted away. finally drifted away. finally drifted away. Um but Um but Um but Yeah, so again, I've just watched pastor Yeah, so again, I've just watched pastor Yeah, so again, I've just watched pastor after pastor leave. And once we got after pastor leave. And once we got after pastor leave. And once we got through those first five or six years, through those first five or six years, through those first five or six years, um Ruth and I said, my wife Ruth and I um Ruth and I said, my wife Ruth and I um Ruth and I said, my wife Ruth and I said, "Why would we ever want to leave said, "Why would we ever want to leave said, "Why would we ever want to leave and go someplace else? Cuz we're just and go someplace else? Cuz we're just and go someplace else? Cuz we're just going to have to do this again going to have to do this again going to have to do this again um in a different environment. So let's um in a different environment. So let's um in a different environment. So let's enjoy what God is doing here now." So enjoy what God is doing here now." So enjoy what God is doing here now." So And there's so much in that. I mean, you And there's so much in that. I mean, you And there's so much in that. I mean, you have read have read have read so many small church pastors' mail. so many small church pastors' mail. so many small church pastors' mail. I want to back up a little bit. Why why I want to back up a little bit. Why why I want to back up a little bit. Why why that church? I mean, if you grew up in that church? I mean, if you grew up in that church? I mean, if you grew up in the church, you're from Dallas, the church, you're from Dallas, the church, you're from Dallas, DTS, you had options. Why why DTS, you had options. Why why DTS, you had options. Why why Pennsylvania? Pennsylvania? Pennsylvania? So Carey, we had um I probably when I So Carey, we had um I probably when I So Carey, we had um I probably when I was about 30 years old, I'd been a was about 30 years old, I'd been a was about 30 years old, I'd been a serving in my dad's church for eight serving in my dad's church for eight serving in my dad's church for eight years at that point. And um felt like it years at that point. And um felt like it years at that point. And um felt like it was time for me to lead on my own. So was time for me to lead on my own. So was time for me to lead on my own. So Ruth and I being Texans, we said, "God, Ruth and I being Texans, we said, "God, Ruth and I being Texans, we said, "God, we'll go anywhere you want us to go in we'll go anywhere you want us to go in we'll go anywhere you want us to go in Texas."

Texas." Texas." And And And we thought we were being incredibly we thought we were being incredibly we thought we were being incredibly generous and totally open-handed with generous and totally open-handed with generous and totally open-handed with God. So for a two-year period, we God. So for a two-year period, we God. So for a two-year period, we literally talked to over 30 churches um literally talked to over 30 churches um literally talked to over 30 churches um in Texas and none of them were right. in Texas and none of them were right. in Texas and none of them were right. And the interesting thing is And the interesting thing is And the interesting thing is um I wanted to go someplace that really um I wanted to go someplace that really um I wanted to go someplace that really had a interest in reaching people for had a interest in reaching people for had a interest in reaching people for Jesus. And Jesus. And Jesus. And every church says they want to do that, every church says they want to do that, every church says they want to do that, but most churches don't. I mean, it's in but most churches don't. I mean, it's in but most churches don't. I mean, it's in their mission statements, they'll talk their mission statements, they'll talk their mission statements, they'll talk about it. But then when you get down to about it. But then when you get down to about it. But then when you get down to the brass tax of how far are we willing the brass tax of how far are we willing the brass tax of how far are we willing to go to reach people for Jesus, and to go to reach people for Jesus, and to go to reach people for Jesus, and then you start finding out, nah, they're then you start finding out, nah, they're then you start finding out, nah, they're not really that serious about it. And so not really that serious about it. And so not really that serious about it. And so I I wasn't one that wanted to go to a I I wasn't one that wanted to go to a I I wasn't one that wanted to go to a church and church and church and so this is where it may get offensive so this is where it may get offensive so this is where it may get offensive for some pastors, but some churches just for some pastors, but some churches just for some pastors, but some churches just want you to come and hold their hands want you to come and hold their hands want you to come and hold their hands and pat them on the back. And and that's and pat them on the back. And and that's and pat them on the back. And and that's fine for some people maybe, but that's fine for some people maybe, but that's fine for some people maybe, but that's not me. And so that's what we were not me. And so that's what we were not me. And so that's what we were finding in most of the churches in finding in most of the churches in finding in most of the churches in Texas. And it just real clear it wasn't Texas. And it just real clear it wasn't Texas. And it just real clear it wasn't right for us. right for us. right for us. And interestingly, Carey, And interestingly, Carey, And interestingly, Carey, I was just going to I was just going to I was just going to >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> we got to that two-year period, we >> we got to that two-year period, we >> we got to that two-year period, we finally said, "Okay, either God wants us finally said, "Okay, either God wants us finally said, "Okay, either God wants us to stay here in in Dallas or we finally to stay here in in Dallas or we finally to stay here in in Dallas or we finally reached a point said, 'Okay, God, if you reached a point said, 'Okay, God, if you reached a point said, 'Okay, God, if you really want us to go anywhere, we'll really want us to go anywhere, we'll really want us to go anywhere, we'll we'll open up the our hands fully and go we'll open up the our hands fully and go we'll open up the our hands fully and go wherever you want.'" And then within two wherever you want.'" And then within two wherever you want.'" And then within two or three, four weeks, things began to or three, four weeks, things began to or three, four weeks, things began to open up and and uh the church from open up and and uh the church from open up and and uh the church from Pennsylvania, which later we knew to be Pennsylvania, which later we knew to be Pennsylvania, which later we knew to be LCBC, invited us to come and um and LCBC, invited us to come and um and LCBC, invited us to come and um and candidate there. So This episode is candidate there. So This episode is candidate there. So This episode is brought to you by Amplify Plus from brought to you by Amplify Plus from brought to you by Amplify Plus from Ministry Brands. One thing you've heard Ministry Brands. One thing you've heard Ministry Brands. One thing you've heard me say a lot of times is time off won't me say a lot of times is time off won't me say a lot of times is time off won't heal you if the problem is how you spend heal you if the problem is how you spend heal you if the problem is how you spend your time on. Well, for so many pastors,

your time on. Well, for so many pastors, your time on. Well, for so many pastors, our best hours get swallowed up by our best hours get swallowed up by our best hours get swallowed up by systems that don't work, right? systems that don't work, right? systems that don't work, right? Scattered tools, disconnected processes, Scattered tools, disconnected processes, Scattered tools, disconnected processes, constant admin. These hours are the very constant admin. These hours are the very constant admin. These hours are the very ones you could be spending on things ones you could be spending on things ones you could be spending on things that matter most. For example, investing that matter most. For example, investing that matter most. For example, investing in people, shaping vision, or leading in people, shaping vision, or leading in people, shaping vision, or leading your church toward its mission. That's your church toward its mission. That's your church toward its mission. That's why I want you to see what 55,000 why I want you to see what 55,000 why I want you to see what 55,000 churches nationwide are using, Amplify churches nationwide are using, Amplify churches nationwide are using, Amplify Plus from Ministry Brands. It's a fully Plus from Ministry Brands. It's a fully Plus from Ministry Brands. It's a fully connected church management platform connected church management platform connected church management platform that brings your people, communication, that brings your people, communication, that brings your people, communication, events, and scheduling all into one events, and scheduling all into one events, and scheduling all into one place. When your systems work, your time place. When your systems work, your time place. When your systems work, your time on fuels the heart of ministry. Visit on fuels the heart of ministry. Visit on fuels the heart of ministry. Visit ministrybrands.com/amplify ministrybrands.com/amplify ministrybrands.com/amplify to learn more. So you went What's funny, to learn more. So you went What's funny, to learn more. So you went What's funny, I went to a bunch of churches and it I went to a bunch of churches and it I went to a bunch of churches and it just didn't work out and end up where just didn't work out and end up where just didn't work out and end up where we've been now for 30 years, which is we've been now for 30 years, which is we've been now for 30 years, which is interesting. So Yeah. You know, this may interesting. So Yeah. You know, this may interesting. So Yeah. You know, this may sound You mentioned the worship wars. sound You mentioned the worship wars. sound You mentioned the worship wars. Like this might sound like ancient Like this might sound like ancient Like this might sound like ancient history to a good chunk of our history to a good chunk of our history to a good chunk of our listeners, but listeners, but listeners, but I get messages almost every day from I get messages almost every day from I get messages almost every day from church leaders who are still where you church leaders who are still where you church leaders who are still where you were in 1991, where I was, you know, were in 1991, where I was, you know, were in 1991, where I was, you know, in the late '90s and early 2000s. And in the late '90s and early 2000s. And in the late '90s and early 2000s. And you know, you and I have the scars about you know, you and I have the scars about you know, you and I have the scars about music wars and everything.

music wars and everything. music wars and everything. It's still an issue. It's still an It's still an issue. It's still an It's still an issue. It's still an issue. I talk to pastors who are still issue. I talk to pastors who are still issue. I talk to pastors who are still doing the blended, traditional, doing the blended, traditional, doing the blended, traditional, contemporary services and trying to make contemporary services and trying to make contemporary services and trying to make everybody happy. What did you learn everybody happy. What did you learn everybody happy. What did you learn about music in those early days of about music in those early days of about music in those early days of ministry? ministry? ministry? So Carey, everything I say is just more So Carey, everything I say is just more So Carey, everything I say is just more of my thoughts and feelings. So I of my thoughts and feelings. So I of my thoughts and feelings. So I realize there's different thoughts and realize there's different thoughts and realize there's different thoughts and feelings. I'll just say that up front, feelings. I'll just say that up front, feelings. I'll just say that up front, but I have strong biases. And what I but I have strong biases. And what I but I have strong biases. And what I watched early on is and my dad's church watched early on is and my dad's church watched early on is and my dad's church was one that did it in Dallas where was one that did it in Dallas where was one that did it in Dallas where rather than pick a direction, they tried rather than pick a direction, they tried rather than pick a direction, they tried to keep everybody happy. And so one of to keep everybody happy. And so one of to keep everybody happy. And so one of my guiding principles as a pastor is you my guiding principles as a pastor is you my guiding principles as a pastor is you cannot keep everybody happy. And so we cannot keep everybody happy. And so we cannot keep everybody happy. And so we made a decision very early on and we made a decision very early on and we made a decision very early on and we said, "Since we can't please everybody, said, "Since we can't please everybody, said, "Since we can't please everybody, we'd rather we go by the 90/10 rule." we'd rather we go by the 90/10 rule." we'd rather we go by the 90/10 rule." It's what we still talk about today. And It's what we still talk about today. And It's what we still talk about today. And we'd rather 90% of the people be wildly we'd rather 90% of the people be wildly we'd rather 90% of the people be wildly enthusiastic with us. 10% can be wildly enthusiastic with us. 10% can be wildly enthusiastic with us. 10% can be wildly upset with us and we're okay um with upset with us and we're okay um with upset with us and we're okay um with that. And you can go in churches, Carey, that. And you can go in churches, Carey, that. And you can go in churches, Carey, that are trying to blend and nobody's that are trying to blend and nobody's that are trying to blend and nobody's happy. The ones that wanted back then happy. The ones that wanted back then happy. The ones that wanted back then more hymns, they were upset you sang two more hymns, they were upset you sang two more hymns, they were upset you sang two choruses. The ones that wanted choruses choruses. The ones that wanted choruses choruses. The ones that wanted choruses were upset that you sang two hymns. And were upset that you sang two hymns. And were upset that you sang two hymns. And so nobody was happy. And you could feel so nobody was happy. And you could feel so nobody was happy. And you could feel it instantly when you walk in those it instantly when you walk in those it instantly when you walk in those buildings. And so we just said we buildings. And so we just said we buildings. And so we just said we weren't going to play that game. We're weren't going to play that game. We're weren't going to play that game. We're going to pick a direction. And for us, going to pick a direction. And for us, going to pick a direction. And for us, 1991, being contemporary was unique in 1991, being contemporary was unique in 1991, being contemporary was unique in our area. Nobody else was really doing our area. Nobody else was really doing our area. Nobody else was really doing it. And so we would just say, "Man, if it. And so we would just say, "Man, if it. And so we would just say, "Man, if this isn't for you, we get it. There's a this isn't for you, we get it. There's a this isn't for you, we get it. There's a lot of other good churches that are lot of other good churches that are lot of other good churches that are still doing it the other way and maybe still doing it the other way and maybe still doing it the other way and maybe that's where you need to be. But this is that's where you need to be. But this is that's where you need to be. But this is the direction we're going." And so what the direction we're going." And so what the direction we're going." And so what it did is it created this sense of

it did is it created this sense of it did is it created this sense of excitement and energy that we'd picked a excitement and energy that we'd picked a excitement and energy that we'd picked a direction. And we had people very upset direction. And we had people very upset direction. And we had people very upset with us, but that's okay. And 90/10 has with us, but that's okay. And 90/10 has with us, but that's okay. And 90/10 has served us well. We still follow that served us well. We still follow that served us well. We still follow that even today with 25,000 people. And even today with 25,000 people. And even today with 25,000 people. And what's funny, Carey, is we'll do what's funny, Carey, is we'll do what's funny, Carey, is we'll do something today and we'll get 20, 30, 40 something today and we'll get 20, 30, 40 something today and we'll get 20, 30, 40 emails that are upset with us and we'll emails that are upset with us and we'll emails that are upset with us and we'll all get rattled and think, "Oh, no." But all get rattled and think, "Oh, no." But all get rattled and think, "Oh, no." But then we'll kind of pause and go, "Okay, then we'll kind of pause and go, "Okay, then we'll kind of pause and go, "Okay, wait a minute. 90/10, so 10% of 25,000. wait a minute. 90/10, so 10% of 25,000. wait a minute. 90/10, so 10% of 25,000. Oh, we still have another 2,450 emails Oh, we still have another 2,450 emails Oh, we still have another 2,450 emails to get before we really need to start to get before we really need to start to get before we really need to start worrying about this." worrying about this." worrying about this." >> Before you really angered 10%. Yeah. >> Before you really angered 10%. Yeah. >> Before you really angered 10%. Yeah. >> Exactly. So, so that's served us real >> Exactly. So, so that's served us real >> Exactly. So, so that's served us real well. well. well. It's amazing to me, you know, I think of It's amazing to me, you know, I think of It's amazing to me, you know, I think of it as doing the math. And I'll talk to it as doing the math. And I'll talk to it as doing the math. And I'll talk to leaders about that all the time. So, leaders about that all the time. So, leaders about that all the time. So, even in a church of 100 even in a church of 100 even in a church of 100 it's like, you know, man, so many people it's like, you know, man, so many people it's like, you know, man, so many people are opposed. Well, I'm taking names. are opposed. Well, I'm taking names. are opposed. Well, I'm taking names. Like, write them down. Yes. The number Like, write them down. Yes. The number Like, write them down. Yes. The number of times in a sample of 100, you don't of times in a sample of 100, you don't of times in a sample of 100, you don't even get to six or seven. even get to six or seven. even get to six or seven. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> Abe and then it was this other family >> Abe and then it was this other family >> Abe and then it was this other family and that was another one and another one and that was another one and another one and that was another one and another one and then you're Oh, yeah, there's one and then you're Oh, yeah, there's one and then you're Oh, yeah, there's one more and then you're like, "Yeah, and more and then you're like, "Yeah, and more and then you're like, "Yeah, and what else?" And they're like, what else?" And they're like, what else?" And they're like, "Well, that's it." But, you know, one "Well, that's it." But, you know, one "Well, that's it." But, you know, one Abe can totally throw you Oh, yeah.

Abe can totally throw you Oh, yeah. Abe can totally throw you Oh, yeah. completely off your game. I got to ask completely off your game. I got to ask completely off your game. I got to ask you, why you, why you, why did you ask him to leave? Like, for you did you ask him to leave? Like, for you did you ask him to leave? Like, for you to be able to tolerate him stuffing to be able to tolerate him stuffing to be able to tolerate him stuffing mailboxes every Sunday for any period of mailboxes every Sunday for any period of mailboxes every Sunday for any period of time, like, how What was What was the time, like, how What was What was the time, like, how What was What was the thinking? What was your thinking as a thinking? What was your thinking as a thinking? What was your thinking as a young leader in just letting Abe stuff young leader in just letting Abe stuff young leader in just letting Abe stuff the mailboxes with angry notes? the mailboxes with angry notes? the mailboxes with angry notes? Yeah, you know, I don't think I ever Yeah, you know, I don't think I ever Yeah, you know, I don't think I ever asked anybody to leave. Um I remember asked anybody to leave. Um I remember asked anybody to leave. Um I remember one elder that um was somewhat of an one elder that um was somewhat of an one elder that um was somewhat of an antagonist and he was upset because we antagonist and he was upset because we antagonist and he was upset because we weren't using back then the King James weren't using back then the King James weren't using back then the King James Bible. What we were We right away Bible. What we were We right away Bible. What we were We right away started using the New Living started using the New Living started using the New Living Translation. He didn't like that. And Translation. He didn't like that. And Translation. He didn't like that. And there were just a number of things. And there were just a number of things. And there were just a number of things. And in my youthfulness and probably in my youthfulness and probably in my youthfulness and probably arrogance back then, I probably baited arrogance back then, I probably baited arrogance back then, I probably baited him some and to just having some him some and to just having some him some and to just having some disagreements. And so, he ended up disagreements. And so, he ended up disagreements. And so, he ended up leaving. But, Abe I didn't and I'm not leaving. But, Abe I didn't and I'm not leaving. But, Abe I didn't and I'm not sure why. Um I just sure why. Um I just sure why. Um I just he didn't bother me. I mean, he bothered he didn't bother me. I mean, he bothered he didn't bother me. I mean, he bothered me, but he didn't bother me and I didn't me, but he didn't bother me and I didn't me, but he didn't bother me and I didn't feel like he had that much of a voice. feel like he had that much of a voice. feel like he had that much of a voice. And so, you know, it was just kind of And so, you know, it was just kind of And so, you know, it was just kind of outlast him. And And I'm not saying outlast him. And And I'm not saying outlast him. And And I'm not saying that's the right way to do it. It just that's the right way to do it. It just that's the right way to do it. It just for me wasn't really all that much of an for me wasn't really all that much of an for me wasn't really all that much of an issue.

issue. issue. And he was friends with a lot of the, And he was friends with a lot of the, And he was friends with a lot of the, you know, the founding members of the you know, the founding members of the you know, the founding members of the church. And so, it's like, yeah, I don't church. And so, it's like, yeah, I don't church. And so, it's like, yeah, I don't know that I need to upset them by know that I need to upset them by know that I need to upset them by driving him away. And I knew that he driving him away. And I knew that he driving him away. And I knew that he didn't have the influence he thought he didn't have the influence he thought he didn't have the influence he thought he did. And so, that probably was the did. And so, that probably was the did. And so, that probably was the biggest piece of it. biggest piece of it. biggest piece of it. Yeah, there were there were a number of Yeah, there were there were a number of Yeah, there were there were a number of people who were kind of eye rolls, I'm people who were kind of eye rolls, I'm people who were kind of eye rolls, I'm sure, with his with his weekly notes. sure, with his with his weekly notes. sure, with his with his weekly notes. And then other people be a little tribe. And then other people be a little tribe. And then other people be a little tribe. Sometimes that can be really difficult. Sometimes that can be really difficult. Sometimes that can be really difficult. Like, when my wife, Tony, and I reflect Like, when my wife, Tony, and I reflect Like, when my wife, Tony, and I reflect on the early days and all the opposition on the early days and all the opposition on the early days and all the opposition that all that quick change brought. that all that quick change brought. that all that quick change brought. I think it was harder on her Yes. I think it was harder on her Yes. I think it was harder on her Yes. >> than I realized. What was that dynamic >> than I realized. What was that dynamic >> than I realized. What was that dynamic between you and Ruth in in that season? between you and Ruth in in that season? between you and Ruth in in that season? So, Carey, I So, Carey, I So, Carey, I I care about people, but I kind of I care about people, but I kind of I care about people, but I kind of don't, too. And I know that sounds don't, too. And I know that sounds don't, too. And I know that sounds terrible as a pastor. Um and especially terrible as a pastor. Um and especially terrible as a pastor. Um and especially when you're new to the church, I didn't when you're new to the church, I didn't when you're new to the church, I didn't know the people. I didn't have a long know the people. I didn't have a long know the people. I didn't have a long history. And so, I didn't have a history history. And so, I didn't have a history history. And so, I didn't have a history with Abe. And so, if he was mad at me, with Abe. And so, if he was mad at me, with Abe. And so, if he was mad at me, it was like, okay, you can be mad at me. it was like, okay, you can be mad at me. it was like, okay, you can be mad at me. But, I there was no relationship to lose But, I there was no relationship to lose But, I there was no relationship to lose there. There never was one. there. There never was one. there. There never was one. >> And so, it was >> And so, it was >> And so, it was Right, exactly. So, it didn't hit me Right, exactly. So, it didn't hit me Right, exactly. So, it didn't hit me that hard. And so, Ruth is very caring that hard. And so, Ruth is very caring that hard. And so, Ruth is very caring and just a real sweet individual. And and just a real sweet individual. And and just a real sweet individual. And so, it would affect her. It would bother so, it would affect her. It would bother so, it would affect her. It would bother her when Abe or others would say things her when Abe or others would say things her when Abe or others would say things about me. And then she'd also tell me.

about me. And then she'd also tell me. about me. And then she'd also tell me. She said, "It's easy for you." She said, She said, "It's easy for you." She said, She said, "It's easy for you." She said, "You don't ever go to the grocery "You don't ever go to the grocery "You don't ever go to the grocery store." But, she said, "I go to the store." But, she said, "I go to the store." But, she said, "I go to the grocery store and I've got to see Abe or grocery store and I've got to see Abe or grocery store and I've got to see Abe or his wife or other people in the grocery his wife or other people in the grocery his wife or other people in the grocery store." And so, it was harder for her, store." And so, it was harder for her, store." And so, it was harder for her, for sure. for sure. for sure. Yeah. Every Christmas, you know, every Yeah. Every Christmas, you know, every Yeah. Every Christmas, you know, every board meeting I'd come home and her board meeting I'd come home and her board meeting I'd come home and her first question was, "Do you still have a first question was, "Do you still have a first question was, "Do you still have a job?" And then every Christmas, as she job?" And then every Christmas, as she job?" And then every Christmas, as she was putting Christmas decorations away, was putting Christmas decorations away, was putting Christmas decorations away, she would say, "Am I packing up for next she would say, "Am I packing up for next she would say, "Am I packing up for next year? Am I packing up for a move?" And year? Am I packing up for a move?" And year? Am I packing up for a move?" And so, that's how tenuous it was those so, that's how tenuous it was those so, that's how tenuous it was those first five or six years of not being first five or six years of not being first five or six years of not being sure what was going to happen. sure what was going to happen. sure what was going to happen. Wow. Okay, I think we're maybe similarly Wow. Okay, I think we're maybe similarly Wow. Okay, I think we're maybe similarly wired. I tend not I feel things more wired. I tend not I feel things more wired. I tend not I feel things more intensely now than I did intensely now than I did intensely now than I did in my 30s when I was starting out. I'd in my 30s when I was starting out. I'd in my 30s when I was starting out. I'd be like, "Ah, it'll be fine. It'll be be like, "Ah, it'll be fine. It'll be be like, "Ah, it'll be fine. It'll be fine." And fine." And fine." And that led to burnout and a bunch of other that led to burnout and a bunch of other that led to burnout and a bunch of other stuff. But, stuff. But, stuff. But, yeah, I generally have a thicker skin yeah, I generally have a thicker skin yeah, I generally have a thicker skin than maybe a lot of people in pastoral than maybe a lot of people in pastoral than maybe a lot of people in pastoral ministry do and certainly than my wife. ministry do and certainly than my wife. ministry do and certainly than my wife. If you're looking back on those first If you're looking back on those first If you're looking back on those first five to seven years, five to seven years, five to seven years, what would you do the same and what what would you do the same and what what would you do the same and what would you do differently?

would you do differently? would you do differently? So, you know, I think um Ruth would tell So, you know, I think um Ruth would tell So, you know, I think um Ruth would tell you one of my traits is um you one of my traits is um you one of my traits is um I like to call it determination, I like to call it determination, I like to call it determination, steadfastness. She would call it steadfastness. She would call it steadfastness. She would call it stubbornness. Um and so, I think that stubbornness. Um and so, I think that stubbornness. Um and so, I think that actually served me well during that actually served me well during that actually served me well during that time. I was building relationships, but time. I was building relationships, but time. I was building relationships, but trying to build them with the right trying to build them with the right trying to build them with the right people, the influencers in the church. people, the influencers in the church. people, the influencers in the church. Not just to be able to get in with the Not just to be able to get in with the Not just to be able to get in with the influencers, but really who are the influencers, but really who are the influencers, but really who are the people that are going to make a people that are going to make a people that are going to make a difference long term. And so, that was difference long term. And so, that was difference long term. And so, that was happening. And then I just kind of stuck happening. And then I just kind of stuck happening. And then I just kind of stuck to my guns and said, "Man, this is the to my guns and said, "Man, this is the to my guns and said, "Man, this is the way that we're going." And unless the way that we're going." And unless the way that we're going." And unless the board truly does ask us to change board truly does ask us to change board truly does ask us to change directions. And even in the midst of the directions. And even in the midst of the directions. And even in the midst of the turmoil on the board with board chairman turmoil on the board with board chairman turmoil on the board with board chairman leaving, the board was still steadfast leaving, the board was still steadfast leaving, the board was still steadfast of saying, "We really want to introduce of saying, "We really want to introduce of saying, "We really want to introduce people to Jesus. This is how we want to people to Jesus. This is how we want to people to Jesus. This is how we want to go about doing it." And so, it helped me go about doing it." And so, it helped me go about doing it." And so, it helped me be steadfast that way. So, probably be steadfast that way. So, probably be steadfast that way. So, probably continuing to be stubborn, I think I continuing to be stubborn, I think I continuing to be stubborn, I think I would have kept doing that. Um like I would have kept doing that. Um like I would have kept doing that. Um like I said, I did bait the one elder now said, I did bait the one elder now said, I did bait the one elder now looking back. And um and I feel bad looking back. And um and I feel bad looking back. And um and I feel bad about that. There are times that I about that. There are times that I about that. There are times that I didn't respond with as much love or didn't respond with as much love or didn't respond with as much love or graciousness as I should have. Um graciousness as I should have. Um graciousness as I should have. Um Yeah, so probably that. But, otherwise, Yeah, so probably that. But, otherwise, Yeah, so probably that. But, otherwise, I'm not sure I would change a whole lot.

I'm not sure I would change a whole lot. I'm not sure I would change a whole lot. So, while that opposition happened, you So, while that opposition happened, you So, while that opposition happened, you were growing, you know, from that were growing, you know, from that were growing, you know, from that you know, handful of people to or 100 or you know, handful of people to or 100 or you know, handful of people to or 100 or whatever it was to 300 to 600. whatever it was to 300 to 600. whatever it was to 300 to 600. What were some inflection points in that What were some inflection points in that What were some inflection points in that growth? growth? growth? Well, you know, it sounds So, again, Well, you know, it sounds So, again, Well, you know, it sounds So, again, you're talking small church here. Um you're talking small church here. Um you're talking small church here. Um we filled our auditorium. Our auditorium we filled our auditorium. Our auditorium we filled our auditorium. Our auditorium would seat 400 people. And we filled the would seat 400 people. And we filled the would seat 400 people. And we filled the auditorium once. And so, the question auditorium once. And so, the question auditorium once. And so, the question that we started asking then, and we that we started asking then, and we that we started asking then, and we still ask it today, is are we done yet? still ask it today, is are we done yet? still ask it today, is are we done yet? And we said, "Are we done introducing And we said, "Are we done introducing And we said, "Are we done introducing people to Jesus? We've grown to 400. If people to Jesus? We've grown to 400. If people to Jesus? We've grown to 400. If not, then we're going to have to add a not, then we're going to have to add a not, then we're going to have to add a second gathering." And you'd have second gathering." And you'd have second gathering." And you'd have thought it was going to be the end of thought it was going to be the end of thought it was going to be the end of the world going to second gathering. the world going to second gathering. the world going to second gathering. People saying, "Oh, we'll never have People saying, "Oh, we'll never have People saying, "Oh, we'll never have enough workers in children's ministry. enough workers in children's ministry. enough workers in children's ministry. I'll never see my friends again." I I'll never see my friends again." I I'll never see my friends again." I mean, the tension was so high, you could mean, the tension was so high, you could mean, the tension was so high, you could cut it with a knife right up until the cut it with a knife right up until the cut it with a knife right up until the Sunday That is an issue and that's an Sunday That is an issue and that's an Sunday That is an issue and that's an other issue I hear from from church other issue I hear from from church other issue I hear from from church leaders, too. It's like, "We can't be leaders, too. It's like, "We can't be leaders, too. It's like, "We can't be two churches. We can't be divided." two churches. We can't be divided." two churches. We can't be divided." Like, if you're a one one service Like, if you're a one one service Like, if you're a one one service congregation, that's still an issue for congregation, that's still an issue for congregation, that's still an issue for a lot of people. So, how did How did you a lot of people. So, how did How did you a lot of people. So, how did How did you get through that?

get through that? get through that? You know, having So, some of it having You know, having So, some of it having You know, having So, some of it having done it in Dallas, we had multiple done it in Dallas, we had multiple done it in Dallas, we had multiple services in Dallas. So, I knew it could services in Dallas. So, I knew it could services in Dallas. So, I knew it could happen. I knew it wasn't going to be a happen. I knew it wasn't going to be a happen. I knew it wasn't going to be a problem. And my tendency, my approach problem. And my tendency, my approach problem. And my tendency, my approach for doing things is to say, "Let's just for doing things is to say, "Let's just for doing things is to say, "Let's just try it." try it." try it." Um and oftentimes I will say, you know, Um and oftentimes I will say, you know, Um and oftentimes I will say, you know, "I think it's going to work. I'm not "I think it's going to work. I'm not "I think it's going to work. I'm not sure either, but let's just try it. If sure either, but let's just try it. If sure either, but let's just try it. If it doesn't work, we'll go back." And so, it doesn't work, we'll go back." And so, it doesn't work, we'll go back." And so, I'm more of a let's undersell and I'm more of a let's undersell and I'm more of a let's undersell and overproduce type person. And rather than overproduce type person. And rather than overproduce type person. And rather than come out emphatically saying God told us come out emphatically saying God told us come out emphatically saying God told us to do two services, I I don't think I've to do two services, I I don't think I've to do two services, I I don't think I've ever heard God tell me to do something ever heard God tell me to do something ever heard God tell me to do something that directly, nor have I ever used that that directly, nor have I ever used that that directly, nor have I ever used that as a way to get things done. And so, we as a way to get things done. And so, we as a way to get things done. And so, we said, "Let's try it." And you know, by said, "Let's try it." And you know, by said, "Let's try it." And you know, by the time that Sunday morning was done, the time that Sunday morning was done, the time that Sunday morning was done, never heard another word about it. And never heard another word about it. And never heard another word about it. And we went on to add six, seven gatherings we went on to add six, seven gatherings we went on to add six, seven gatherings at that location. And so, it just it's at that location. And so, it just it's at that location. And so, it just it's not an issue anymore. But, you have to not an issue anymore. But, you have to not an issue anymore. But, you have to kind of break through some of those kind of break through some of those kind of break through some of those barriers. That was one. Um barriers. That was one. Um barriers. That was one. Um we got to six services in that we got to six services in that we got to six services in that auditorium and we needed to finally auditorium and we needed to finally auditorium and we needed to finally build. And you know, we were it was build. And you know, we were it was build. And you know, we were it was going to kill the staff. It was going to going to kill the staff. It was going to going to kill the staff. It was going to kill me. And it was the first time we kill me. And it was the first time we kill me. And it was the first time we had to ask for money really to be able had to ask for money really to be able had to ask for money really to be able to grow. And so, we thought, "Oh, no, to grow. And so, we thought, "Oh, no, to grow. And so, we thought, "Oh, no, we're going to lose people in the we're going to lose people in the we're going to lose people in the process." And we grew by 50% as we were process." And we grew by 50% as we were process." And we grew by 50% as we were asking people for money before we moved asking people for money before we moved asking people for money before we moved into the auditorium new auditorium. And into the auditorium new auditorium. And into the auditorium new auditorium. And I think, Carey, what did it for us, we I think, Carey, what did it for us, we I think, Carey, what did it for us, we never had a diagram of the building. We never had a diagram of the building. We never had a diagram of the building. We never it wasn't about a building. It was never it wasn't about a building. It was never it wasn't about a building. It was about introducing more people to Jesus.

about introducing more people to Jesus. about introducing more people to Jesus. And so, having gone now through probably And so, having gone now through probably And so, having gone now through probably seven different building seven different building seven different building transitions, it always was about transitions, it always was about transitions, it always was about introducing more people to Jesus. And we introducing more people to Jesus. And we introducing more people to Jesus. And we would say, you know, "We know you'll would say, you know, "We know you'll would say, you know, "We know you'll come at 4:00 on a Sunday afternoon to come at 4:00 on a Sunday afternoon to come at 4:00 on a Sunday afternoon to come to church, but you're not going to come to church, but you're not going to come to church, but you're not going to get your unchurched friends to come at get your unchurched friends to come at get your unchurched friends to come at 4:00. We need more space. It's not for 4:00. We need more space. It's not for 4:00. We need more space. It's not for you. It's for your your friends, you. It's for your your friends, you. It's for your your friends, neighbors, co-workers, family that neighbors, co-workers, family that neighbors, co-workers, family that doesn't yet know Jesus." And that's doesn't yet know Jesus." And that's doesn't yet know Jesus." And that's always been our approach. And so, always been our approach. And so, always been our approach. And so, because it was such a vision-focused because it was such a vision-focused because it was such a vision-focused effort, we grew by 50%. And so, by the effort, we grew by 50%. And so, by the effort, we grew by 50%. And so, by the time we finally moved into that time we finally moved into that time we finally moved into that auditorium, um the day we moved in, we auditorium, um the day we moved in, we auditorium, um the day we moved in, we jumped from about 2,000 to about 3,000. jumped from about 2,000 to about 3,000. jumped from about 2,000 to about 3,000. And within another couple of years, we And within another couple of years, we And within another couple of years, we grew to 6,000. So, I mean, it was just grew to 6,000. So, I mean, it was just grew to 6,000. So, I mean, it was just taking off really, really fast. taking off really, really fast. taking off really, really fast. In a town of 5,000, you outgrew the In a town of 5,000, you outgrew the In a town of 5,000, you outgrew the town. Yeah. town. Yeah. town. Yeah. >> I've been I've been to LCBC. >> I've been I've been to LCBC. >> I've been I've been to LCBC. There's a bunch of farmers' fields There's a bunch of farmers' fields There's a bunch of farmers' fields around there, man. Like, come on. Where around there, man. Like, come on. Where around there, man. Like, come on. Where Where did everybody come from? Where did everybody come from? Where did everybody come from? >> So, they were coming from all around. We >> So, they were coming from all around. We >> So, they were coming from all around. We had people coming 45 minutes to an hour had people coming 45 minutes to an hour had people coming 45 minutes to an hour and a half away to come. And again, back and a half away to come. And again, back and a half away to come. And again, back then, this was by then late '90s, early then, this was by then late '90s, early then, this was by then late '90s, early 2000s, but it was still unique what we 2000s, but it was still unique what we 2000s, but it was still unique what we were doing. I would like to believe were doing. I would like to believe were doing. I would like to believe Well, I know that God was definitely in Well, I know that God was definitely in Well, I know that God was definitely in it. I think that we focused on doing it. I think that we focused on doing it. I think that we focused on doing things with excellence.

things with excellence. things with excellence. And And And and authenticity. And so, I think there and authenticity. And so, I think there and authenticity. And so, I think there was something appealing for people to was something appealing for people to was something appealing for people to come. But, those farm fields ended up come. But, those farm fields ended up come. But, those farm fields ended up being our next big thing. We grew to being our next big thing. We grew to being our next big thing. We grew to about 8,000 in that location. And we about 8,000 in that location. And we about 8,000 in that location. And we were full again and we needed to expand were full again and we needed to expand were full again and we needed to expand our facilities again. And the township our facilities again. And the township our facilities again. And the township told us no. They said, "You're you're told us no. They said, "You're you're told us no. They said, "You're you're disrupting our roads." I mean, they're disrupting our roads." I mean, they're disrupting our roads." I mean, they're little two-lane roads. You've been little two-lane roads. You've been little two-lane roads. You've been there. And so, no, you cannot grow there. And so, no, you cannot grow there. And so, no, you cannot grow anymore. They value farmland here. And anymore. They value farmland here. And anymore. They value farmland here. And so, they said, "You can't You can't take so, they said, "You can't You can't take so, they said, "You can't You can't take up any more farmland." And so, we were up any more farmland." And so, we were up any more farmland." And so, we were devastated at first. And we just again, devastated at first. And we just again, devastated at first. And we just again, but we kept saying, "Are we done? Is but we kept saying, "Are we done? Is but we kept saying, "Are we done? Is this Does this mean we're done? Are we this Does this mean we're done? Are we this Does this mean we're done? Are we done yet?" And about that time, done yet?" And about that time, done yet?" And about that time, multi-site was getting started. Um and multi-site was getting started. Um and multi-site was getting started. Um and so, we went and looked at several so, we went and looked at several so, we went and looked at several different models and figured out the one different models and figured out the one different models and figured out the one that worked for us. And and jumped into that worked for us. And and jumped into that worked for us. And and jumped into multi-site at that point. And looking multi-site at that point. And looking multi-site at that point. And looking back now, um you know, now we think what back now, um you know, now we think what back now, um you know, now we think what a gift it was that the township said no. a gift it was that the township said no. a gift it was that the township said no. At the time, we thought it was end of At the time, we thought it was end of At the time, we thought it was end of the world. But now, if we have 5,000 at the world. But now, if we have 5,000 at the world. But now, if we have 5,000 at our broadcast location, then that means our broadcast location, then that means our broadcast location, then that means we've got 19,000 we've got 19,000 we've got 19,000 at other locations. It never would have at other locations. It never would have at other locations. It never would have happened if we just stayed single site.

happened if we just stayed single site. happened if we just stayed single site. So. So. So. Yeah, that's true. And that was still Yeah, that's true. And that was still Yeah, that's true. And that was still the era of like 3,000 seat auditoriums. the era of like 3,000 seat auditoriums. the era of like 3,000 seat auditoriums. That's where That's where That's where >> Yes. people were building them out. I >> Yes. people were building them out. I >> Yes. people were building them out. I mean, not so much anymore, but back then mean, not so much anymore, but back then mean, not so much anymore, but back then it was just like, well, just build a it was just like, well, just build a it was just like, well, just build a bigger boat and keep going and and don't bigger boat and keep going and and don't bigger boat and keep going and and don't think about multi-site. So. think about multi-site. So. think about multi-site. So. >> Exactly. Exactly. When you >> Exactly. Exactly. When you >> Exactly. Exactly. When you think about innovation, so, you know, think about innovation, so, you know, think about innovation, so, you know, what was pioneering ground in the '90s what was pioneering ground in the '90s what was pioneering ground in the '90s and the early 2000s is now how we do and the early 2000s is now how we do and the early 2000s is now how we do church today, right? In church today, right? In church today, right? In many respects. What did you learn about many respects. What did you learn about many respects. What did you learn about being one of the first? Because you being one of the first? Because you being one of the first? Because you truly were. Like you probably could have truly were. Like you probably could have truly were. Like you probably could have counted counted counted on two hands, maybe including your toes, on two hands, maybe including your toes, on two hands, maybe including your toes, the number of multi-site churches when the number of multi-site churches when the number of multi-site churches when you guys went multi-site. Like it was you guys went multi-site. Like it was you guys went multi-site. Like it was actually innovative and difficult and we actually innovative and difficult and we actually innovative and difficult and we weren't as connected as we are now via weren't as connected as we are now via weren't as connected as we are now via the internet and video and social media the internet and video and social media the internet and video and social media and everything. So, and everything. So, and everything. So, there was a real pioneering spirit. What there was a real pioneering spirit. What there was a real pioneering spirit. What did you learn about going first or did you learn about going first or did you learn about going first or becoming one of the first to try becoming one of the first to try becoming one of the first to try something? something? something? Well, Terry, at that time, I had always Well, Terry, at that time, I had always Well, Terry, at that time, I had always been hesitant to plant churches and I been hesitant to plant churches and I been hesitant to plant churches and I know it sounds awful to say that, but know it sounds awful to say that, but know it sounds awful to say that, but and my reason for it was the failure and my reason for it was the failure and my reason for it was the failure rate that I saw over and over and over.

rate that I saw over and over and over. rate that I saw over and over and over. And so, I just thought, man, I don't And so, I just thought, man, I don't And so, I just thought, man, I don't think that's the way to go. think that's the way to go. think that's the way to go. What attracted me to multi-site and to What attracted me to multi-site and to What attracted me to multi-site and to your point, there weren't a whole lot of your point, there weren't a whole lot of your point, there weren't a whole lot of churches doing it, but it was in essence churches doing it, but it was in essence churches doing it, but it was in essence taking a model that was already working, taking a model that was already working, taking a model that was already working, our church, and saying, how do we our church, and saying, how do we our church, and saying, how do we replicate that in another location? Same replicate that in another location? Same replicate that in another location? Same leadership for the most part, same model leadership for the most part, same model leadership for the most part, same model that we know works, same group of people that we know works, same group of people that we know works, same group of people that are already coming to LCBC, but that are already coming to LCBC, but that are already coming to LCBC, but let's take So, what we did is we let's take So, what we did is we let's take So, what we did is we developed a plan for about five developed a plan for about five developed a plan for about five locations. And so, we would carve off locations. And so, we would carve off locations. And so, we would carve off 500 people and send them to start a 500 people and send them to start a 500 people and send them to start a location. Another one, we sent about location. Another one, we sent about location. Another one, we sent about 1,000 people, 1,200 people to start 1,000 people, 1,200 people to start 1,000 people, 1,200 people to start another location. So, instantly they had another location. So, instantly they had another location. So, instantly they had our DNA, they had leadership that had our DNA, they had leadership that had our DNA, they had leadership that had been a part of LCBC. And so, we knew it been a part of LCBC. And so, we knew it been a part of LCBC. And so, we knew it would work. would work. would work. It was just finding the right model. And It was just finding the right model. And It was just finding the right model. And back then, you had kind of real low end. back then, you had kind of real low end. back then, you had kind of real low end. If you got a white wall and a projector, If you got a white wall and a projector, If you got a white wall and a projector, you can start a site to the North Point you can start a site to the North Point you can start a site to the North Point model, where if you had $50 million, you model, where if you had $50 million, you model, where if you had $50 million, you could start a site. And we didn't think could start a site. And we didn't think could start a site. And we didn't think either of those work for us. And so, we either of those work for us. And so, we either of those work for us. And so, we landed more on Life Church's model.

landed more on Life Church's model. landed more on Life Church's model. What's interesting in Pennsylvania, What's interesting in Pennsylvania, What's interesting in Pennsylvania, you've got Philadelphia on one side of you've got Philadelphia on one side of you've got Philadelphia on one side of the state, you've got Pittsburgh on the the state, you've got Pittsburgh on the the state, you've got Pittsburgh on the other. In the middle, it's all basically other. In the middle, it's all basically other. In the middle, it's all basically pretty rural. And so, we now have pretty rural. And so, we now have pretty rural. And so, we now have developed that several different models, developed that several different models, developed that several different models, where we've got the broadcast campus, where we've got the broadcast campus, where we've got the broadcast campus, which runs about 5,000 people. We've got which runs about 5,000 people. We've got which runs about 5,000 people. We've got seven or eight campuses that run about seven or eight campuses that run about seven or eight campuses that run about 1,500 people. But then, in the more 1,500 people. But then, in the more 1,500 people. But then, in the more rural areas, we've got a model that runs rural areas, we've got a model that runs rural areas, we've got a model that runs about 700, 500 to 750 people. And then, about 700, 500 to 750 people. And then, about 700, 500 to 750 people. And then, more recently starting another model more recently starting another model more recently starting another model that's two or 300 people. that's two or 300 people. that's two or 300 people. And those two or 300 people churches, And those two or 300 people churches, And those two or 300 people churches, campuses are the biggest churches in campuses are the biggest churches in campuses are the biggest churches in their town or even their whole county, their town or even their whole county, their town or even their whole county, because it's just it's real rural. So, because it's just it's real rural. So, because it's just it's real rural. So, we've had to be flexible and say we we've had to be flexible and say we we've had to be flexible and say we can't just hard be hard-nosed about it's can't just hard be hard-nosed about it's can't just hard be hard-nosed about it's got to be one size fits all. And so, got to be one size fits all. And so, got to be one size fits all. And so, we've had to flex on that. And did you we've had to flex on that. And did you we've had to flex on that. And did you go with video off the outset on on the go with video off the outset on on the go with video off the outset on on the model like video teaching? model like video teaching? model like video teaching? One of my real strong biases, Kerry, One of my real strong biases, Kerry, One of my real strong biases, Kerry, with multi-site is that if you're going with multi-site is that if you're going with multi-site is that if you're going to scale, and not that we even knew we to scale, and not that we even knew we to scale, and not that we even knew we were going to scale back then, but if were going to scale back then, but if were going to scale back then, but if you're going to scale, I think it's got you're going to scale, I think it's got you're going to scale, I think it's got to be video. And I will hear sometimes to be video. And I will hear sometimes to be video. And I will hear sometimes people say, "Ah, multi-site, it's not people say, "Ah, multi-site, it's not people say, "Ah, multi-site, it's not really working anymore." And my strong really working anymore." And my strong really working anymore." And my strong argument would be it has nothing to do argument would be it has nothing to do argument would be it has nothing to do with multi-site. It has totally to do with multi-site. It has totally to do with multi-site. It has totally to do everything to do with the model that everything to do with the model that everything to do with the model that somebody chooses. And if you choose to somebody chooses. And if you choose to somebody chooses. And if you choose to go live teaching, go live teaching, go live teaching, there's an inability to scale with that.

there's an inability to scale with that. there's an inability to scale with that. There's all kinds of divisiveness issues There's all kinds of divisiveness issues There's all kinds of divisiveness issues that pop up and you're not really one that pop up and you're not really one that pop up and you're not really one church anymore. And so, we just we said church anymore. And so, we just we said church anymore. And so, we just we said it's not about the person, the leader. it's not about the person, the leader. it's not about the person, the leader. Back then, it was never about me. And Back then, it was never about me. And Back then, it was never about me. And so, people would often joke and say so, people would often joke and say so, people would often joke and say LCBC's one of the largest churches LCBC's one of the largest churches LCBC's one of the largest churches nobody had heard of and they definitely nobody had heard of and they definitely nobody had heard of and they definitely hadn't heard of me. And it never was hadn't heard of me. And it never was hadn't heard of me. And it never was about me. It was about saying, "What can about me. It was about saying, "What can about me. It was about saying, "What can we do to to grow and expand LCBC?" And we do to to grow and expand LCBC?" And we do to to grow and expand LCBC?" And my desire was always so they'd go on my desire was always so they'd go on my desire was always so they'd go on generations generations generations way beyond me. So. way beyond me. So. way beyond me. So. Want to go back to where we started, you Want to go back to where we started, you Want to go back to where we started, you know, 30 years know, 30 years know, 30 years of leadership. You know, I was joking of leadership. You know, I was joking of leadership. You know, I was joking with a friend of mine with a friend of mine with a friend of mine who's celebrating 30 years next month who's celebrating 30 years next month who's celebrating 30 years next month and leads a very, very large church. And and leads a very, very large church. And and leads a very, very large church. And when I step back after 20 years, when I step back after 20 years, when I step back after 20 years, somebody said to me, "Wow, 20 years somebody said to me, "Wow, 20 years somebody said to me, "Wow, 20 years without a scandal." And I'm like, without a scandal." And I'm like, without a scandal." And I'm like, I didn't know that was a category and I I didn't know that was a category and I I didn't know that was a category and I wish that wasn't a category. But David, wish that wasn't a category. But David, wish that wasn't a category. But David, you know, 30 some odd years you know, 30 some odd years you know, 30 some odd years for you of leadership and going That was for you of leadership and going That was for you of leadership and going That was at one place and going strong now with at one place and going strong now with at one place and going strong now with the GLN. the GLN. the GLN. What are some keys, some some lessons What are some keys, some some lessons What are some keys, some some lessons you picked up along the way about going you picked up along the way about going you picked up along the way about going a long distance run in leadership? Where a long distance run in leadership? Where a long distance run in leadership? Where did it go well? Did you almost flame out did it go well? Did you almost flame out did it go well? Did you almost flame out at some point? And what's leaving you at some point? And what's leaving you at some point? And what's leaving you with gas in the tank at this stage?

with gas in the tank at this stage? with gas in the tank at this stage? Yeah. So, one of our one of my mottos Yeah. So, one of our one of my mottos Yeah. So, one of our one of my mottos early on, and it's still a motto of the early on, and it's still a motto of the early on, and it's still a motto of the church today, is let's not do anything church today, is let's not do anything church today, is let's not do anything stupid with what God is doing. stupid with what God is doing. stupid with what God is doing. And we don't write that on the walls. And we don't write that on the walls. And we don't write that on the walls. It's not printed anywhere, but any staff It's not printed anywhere, but any staff It's not printed anywhere, but any staff member at LCBC can repeat that back to member at LCBC can repeat that back to member at LCBC can repeat that back to you instantly. you instantly. you instantly. And I just watched so many people, so And I just watched so many people, so And I just watched so many people, so many leaders do stupid things. And often many leaders do stupid things. And often many leaders do stupid things. And often times, stupid it's never Well, I times, stupid it's never Well, I times, stupid it's never Well, I shouldn't say never. Rarely is it shouldn't say never. Rarely is it shouldn't say never. Rarely is it doctrinal or theological issues. What it doctrinal or theological issues. What it doctrinal or theological issues. What it tends to be a relational issues, where tends to be a relational issues, where tends to be a relational issues, where you and I are on the same staff and we you and I are on the same staff and we you and I are on the same staff and we get sideways and and rather than come get sideways and and rather than come get sideways and and rather than come and address the issue with you, we let and address the issue with you, we let and address the issue with you, we let it build up and and so, we get sideways it build up and and so, we get sideways it build up and and so, we get sideways and we blow up the church because of and we blow up the church because of and we blow up the church because of relationships. relationships. relationships. So, some things we'll talk about is keep So, some things we'll talk about is keep So, some things we'll talk about is keep short accounts. If I've got an issue short accounts. If I've got an issue short accounts. If I've got an issue with you that I need to go and talk with with you that I need to go and talk with with you that I need to go and talk with you instantly about that. We talk about you instantly about that. We talk about you instantly about that. We talk about communicating truth with grace. communicating truth with grace. communicating truth with grace. And the tendency in churches is not to And the tendency in churches is not to And the tendency in churches is not to communicate truth first of all. And if communicate truth first of all. And if communicate truth first of all. And if we do, it's not with grace. And so, we do, it's not with grace. And so, we do, it's not with grace. And so, very first we called them newcomers very first we called them newcomers very first we called them newcomers classes back then. Now, we call them classes back then. Now, we call them classes back then. Now, we call them first steps. We still teach the same first steps. We still teach the same first steps. We still teach the same principles today. And I would just say principles today. And I would just say principles today. And I would just say if you to people coming into the church, if you to people coming into the church, if you to people coming into the church, cuz again, I was the only staff person.

cuz again, I was the only staff person. cuz again, I was the only staff person. I'd say, "If you come into the church I'd say, "If you come into the church I'd say, "If you come into the church and you stay, here's how we behave at and you stay, here's how we behave at and you stay, here's how we behave at LCBC." And you just need to understand, LCBC." And you just need to understand, LCBC." And you just need to understand, one of the ways we behave is we one of the ways we behave is we one of the ways we behave is we communicate truth with grace. And so, I communicate truth with grace. And so, I communicate truth with grace. And so, I would every time say, "If you tend to be would every time say, "If you tend to be would every time say, "If you tend to be a kind of person that you can't a kind of person that you can't a kind of person that you can't communicate truth to somebody, that you communicate truth to somebody, that you communicate truth to somebody, that you have to talk behind somebody's back and have to talk behind somebody's back and have to talk behind somebody's back and tell everybody else what you're upset tell everybody else what you're upset tell everybody else what you're upset about, then we don't want you here. I about, then we don't want you here. I about, then we don't want you here. I don't want you here to run our church." don't want you here to run our church." don't want you here to run our church." And I just say there's nothing that And I just say there's nothing that And I just say there's nothing that ruins a church faster than talking ruins a church faster than talking ruins a church faster than talking behind each other's back. And so, I behind each other's back. And so, I behind each other's back. And so, I would go so far and Ruth would always would go so far and Ruth would always would go so far and Ruth would always She would always be in those meetings She would always be in those meetings She would always be in those meetings and she'd get upset with me every time, and she'd get upset with me every time, and she'd get upset with me every time, but I just say, "Go ruin somebody else's but I just say, "Go ruin somebody else's but I just say, "Go ruin somebody else's church, but don't ruin ours." And so, church, but don't ruin ours." And so, church, but don't ruin ours." And so, some of it was just those kind of some of it was just those kind of some of it was just those kind of things, Kerry. So, it's relational things, Kerry. So, it's relational things, Kerry. So, it's relational issues that I think blow up churches. issues that I think blow up churches. issues that I think blow up churches. It's playing too close to the fire when It's playing too close to the fire when It's playing too close to the fire when it comes to moral issues. And so, we had it comes to moral issues. And so, we had it comes to moral issues. And so, we had we were prudish. I mean, we have and we were prudish. I mean, we have and we were prudish. I mean, we have and still have today some pretty strong still have today some pretty strong still have today some pretty strong rules of a man and a woman, if they're rules of a man and a woman, if they're rules of a man and a woman, if they're not married, they don't ride in a car not married, they don't ride in a car not married, they don't ride in a car together, uh just the two of them by together, uh just the two of them by together, uh just the two of them by themselves. Um themselves. Um themselves. Um you're not in the building in a closed you're not in the building in a closed you're not in the building in a closed office with a closed door by yourself office with a closed door by yourself office with a closed door by yourself with a woman. And so, with a woman. And so, with a woman. And so, and I know that people can break rules and I know that people can break rules and I know that people can break rules and get around that, but we just and get around that, but we just and get around that, but we just you know, you just look at reality and you know, you just look at reality and you know, you just look at reality and and I places where I've seen them mess and I places where I've seen them mess and I places where I've seen them mess up, up, up, they sometimes I think they try to say, they sometimes I think they try to say, they sometimes I think they try to say, "Well, we're beyond that. We're more "Well, we're beyond that. We're more "Well, we're beyond that. We're more mature than that. That's not going to mature than that. That's not going to mature than that. That's not going to happen." And happen." And happen." And yet it does. And so, we just said, yet it does. And so, we just said, yet it does. And so, we just said, "Let's just be careful. Let's just be "Let's just be careful. Let's just be "Let's just be careful. Let's just be smart." Well, you give yourselves way smart." Well, you give yourselves way smart." Well, you give yourselves way you give yourself way fewer you give yourself way fewer you give yourself way fewer opportunities if you have rules.

opportunities if you have rules. opportunities if you have rules. And maybe once in a while you And maybe once in a while you And maybe once in a while you accidentally end up in a building alone, accidentally end up in a building alone, accidentally end up in a building alone, but then you're like, "I better leave." but then you're like, "I better leave." but then you're like, "I better leave." Like Like Like like like I I and you know, we've had like like I I and you know, we've had like like I I and you know, we've had conversations on this podcast, where conversations on this podcast, where conversations on this podcast, where I've had some people say, I've had some people say, I've had some people say, "Well, you know, that's not fair to "Well, you know, that's not fair to "Well, you know, that's not fair to women." And they have a really good women." And they have a really good women." And they have a really good point, right? Because if you're not point, right? Because if you're not point, right? Because if you're not going to develop a female leader going to develop a female leader going to develop a female leader one-on-one, the way you would a male one-on-one, the way you would a male one-on-one, the way you would a male leader, is that discriminatory? It's a leader, is that discriminatory? It's a leader, is that discriminatory? It's a really good point. On the other hand, really good point. On the other hand, really good point. On the other hand, you put yourself in the path of you put yourself in the path of you put yourself in the path of temptation again and again and again. temptation again and again and again. temptation again and again and again. And on that note, you know, you think And on that note, you know, you think And on that note, you know, you think about your your cohort, your class of about your your cohort, your class of about your your cohort, your class of people who started 30 years ago with people who started 30 years ago with people who started 30 years ago with you. you. you. Um a lot of them didn't make it. They Um a lot of them didn't make it. They Um a lot of them didn't make it. They they they flamed out, either burnout, they they flamed out, either burnout, they they flamed out, either burnout, moral failure, an affair, financial moral failure, an affair, financial moral failure, an affair, financial improprieties. improprieties. improprieties. And we're not going to name names here, And we're not going to name names here, And we're not going to name names here, cuz we don't need to. Unfortunately, cuz we don't need to. Unfortunately, cuz we don't need to. Unfortunately, there's enough cases that we can all there's enough cases that we can all there's enough cases that we can all conjure up an image or two, but I'm just conjure up an image or two, but I'm just conjure up an image or two, but I'm just wondering, you know, in in your wondering, you know, in in your wondering, you know, in in your colleagues who didn't make it, colleagues who didn't make it, colleagues who didn't make it, did you see certain recurring patterns?

did you see certain recurring patterns? did you see certain recurring patterns? Like Like Like were there were there things that you were there were there things that you were there were there things that you would say, "Yeah, in some of these would say, "Yeah, in some of these would say, "Yeah, in some of these cases, you know, they didn't have X." cases, you know, they didn't have X." cases, you know, they didn't have X." Like do you see recurring patterns in Like do you see recurring patterns in Like do you see recurring patterns in the people who didn't do well over 30 the people who didn't do well over 30 the people who didn't do well over 30 years? years? years? Yeah, so, I don't know that I've ever Yeah, so, I don't know that I've ever Yeah, so, I don't know that I've ever looked at recurring patterns, but there looked at recurring patterns, but there looked at recurring patterns, but there definitely were some. So, I wrote definitely were some. So, I wrote definitely were some. So, I wrote several years ago because of a friend several years ago because of a friend several years ago because of a friend that kind of had a failure that way. And that kind of had a failure that way. And that kind of had a failure that way. And and I'm not doing this to promote the and I'm not doing this to promote the and I'm not doing this to promote the book, cuz it's I don't even know if it's book, cuz it's I don't even know if it's book, cuz it's I don't even know if it's still in print. still in print. still in print. >> go ahead and tell us what it is. I'm I'm >> go ahead and tell us what it is. I'm I'm >> go ahead and tell us what it is. I'm I'm But it was called What Was What Was I But it was called What Was What Was I But it was called What Was What Was I Thinking? was the name of the book. And Thinking? was the name of the book. And Thinking? was the name of the book. And and the reason why I titled that is and the reason why I titled that is and the reason why I titled that is because because because as this person fell, I just kept as this person fell, I just kept as this person fell, I just kept thinking, "What in the world was he thinking, "What in the world was he thinking, "What in the world was he thinking?" And so, if there were a thinking?" And so, if there were a thinking?" And so, if there were a recurring pattern, recurring pattern, recurring pattern, and if he made a mistake, he put himself and if he made a mistake, he put himself and if he made a mistake, he put himself in situations that he never should have in situations that he never should have in situations that he never should have been in. And I look and go, "What in the been in. And I look and go, "What in the been in. And I look and go, "What in the world did you What were you thinking to world did you What were you thinking to world did you What were you thinking to be in that situation with another be in that situation with another be in that situation with another woman?" Even if nothing happened. And woman?" Even if nothing happened. And woman?" Even if nothing happened. And that's where the questions are, did it that's where the questions are, did it that's where the questions are, did it did it not happen? did it not happen? did it not happen? Even if it didn't happen, why would you Even if it didn't happen, why would you Even if it didn't happen, why would you put yourself in that situation? Why put yourself in that situation? Why put yourself in that situation? Why would your family allow you to be in would your family allow you to be in would your family allow you to be in that situation? Why would any of your that situation? Why would any of your that situation? Why would any of your co-workers allow you to be in this co-workers allow you to be in this co-workers allow you to be in this situation? Cuz you look at it, you go, situation? Cuz you look at it, you go, situation? Cuz you look at it, you go, "People knew what the situation was."

"People knew what the situation was." "People knew what the situation was." And somebody should have stepped up and And somebody should have stepped up and And somebody should have stepped up and said, "You know that if nothing else, said, "You know that if nothing else, said, "You know that if nothing else, this doesn't look good. this doesn't look good. this doesn't look good. And you ought not be in that situation." And you ought not be in that situation." And you ought not be in that situation." So, probably if I were looking at, you, So, probably if I were looking at, you, So, probably if I were looking at, you, know, know, know, themes carry it just be putting yourself themes carry it just be putting yourself themes carry it just be putting yourself in situations that you know you in situations that you know you in situations that you know you shouldn't be in. shouldn't be in. shouldn't be in. Nothing good is going to come out of it. Nothing good is going to come out of it. Nothing good is going to come out of it. I mean, it's it's kind of like in the I mean, it's it's kind of like in the I mean, it's it's kind of like in the sports world where even just last week I sports world where even just last week I sports world where even just last week I read about a shooting of several NFL read about a shooting of several NFL read about a shooting of several NFL players and players and players and and then when you keep reading into the and then when you keep reading into the and then when you keep reading into the article, it's 2:09 in the morning and article, it's 2:09 in the morning and article, it's 2:09 in the morning and it's kind of back to that nothing good it's kind of back to that nothing good it's kind of back to that nothing good happens after happens after happens after 12:00 or 10:00 or whatever time you want 12:00 or 10:00 or whatever time you want 12:00 or 10:00 or whatever time you want to put it, but but it's just like what to put it, but but it's just like what to put it, but but it's just like what do you think is going to happen at 2:09 do you think is going to happen at 2:09 do you think is going to happen at 2:09 or 2:00 in the morning outside a or 2:00 in the morning outside a or 2:00 in the morning outside a nightclub? It just why would you be nightclub? It just why would you be nightclub? It just why would you be there? And so I think that's one. there? And so I think that's one. there? And so I think that's one. Yeah, you know, it's really interesting Yeah, you know, it's really interesting Yeah, you know, it's really interesting you think about that. Last night I was you think about that. Last night I was you think about that. Last night I was at dinner with a young pastor and his at dinner with a young pastor and his at dinner with a young pastor and his wife, my wife and I were out with them wife, my wife and I were out with them wife, my wife and I were out with them in Franklin in Franklin in Franklin and our server was really interesting, and our server was really interesting, and our server was really interesting, had come through we found out his life had come through we found out his life had come through we found out his life story, you know, a bunch of pastors story, you know, a bunch of pastors story, you know, a bunch of pastors around the table. So he tells us he came around the table. So he tells us he came around the table. So he tells us he came through addiction and through addiction and through addiction and broke up with his wife and now they're broke up with his wife and now they're broke up with his wife and now they're back together and they're parents for back together and they're parents for back together and they're parents for the second time the second time the second time and he was asking about us and I said, and he was asking about us and I said, and he was asking about us and I said, you know, the pastor you know, the pastor you know, the pastor it was Noe Garcia, his church meets at it was Noe Garcia, his church meets at it was Noe Garcia, his church meets at Cannery Row downtown Nashville. It can't Cannery Row downtown Nashville. It can't Cannery Row downtown Nashville. It can't get more downtown than that. And I said, get more downtown than that. And I said, get more downtown than that. And I said, yeah, and we're doing our live event yeah, and we're doing our live event yeah, and we're doing our live event there next September. I said, do you there next September. I said, do you there next September. I said, do you ever go to Cannery Hall? He goes, I I ever go to Cannery Hall? He goes, I I ever go to Cannery Hall? He goes, I I can't go downtown Nashville. It's too can't go downtown Nashville. It's too can't go downtown Nashville. It's too dangerous right now for him dangerous right now for him dangerous right now for him because of Broadway and the drinking and because of Broadway and the drinking and because of Broadway and the drinking and everything. I can go in there no

everything. I can go in there no everything. I can go in there no problem. It's a really cool venue, but problem. It's a really cool venue, but problem. It's a really cool venue, but that's a really good thought. Like he that's a really good thought. Like he that's a really good thought. Like he had an addictive past. had an addictive past. had an addictive past. Yeah. And yeah, there's a little bit of Yeah. And yeah, there's a little bit of Yeah. And yeah, there's a little bit of drinking on Broadway a couple blocks drinking on Broadway a couple blocks drinking on Broadway a couple blocks over for sure. So don't put yourself in over for sure. So don't put yourself in over for sure. So don't put yourself in difficult situations. What else have you difficult situations. What else have you difficult situations. What else have you seen in terms of patterns? So you know, seen in terms of patterns? So you know, seen in terms of patterns? So you know, this one is more maybe more anecdotal this one is more maybe more anecdotal this one is more maybe more anecdotal than actually a than actually a than actually a but looking back at people that have but looking back at people that have but looking back at people that have fallen fallen fallen now I look back and I think of now I look back and I think of now I look back and I think of conversations I've had with them or that conversations I've had with them or that conversations I've had with them or that I've heard them have in public and there I've heard them have in public and there I've heard them have in public and there was just a coarseness to their jesting. was just a coarseness to their jesting. was just a coarseness to their jesting. Um, Um, Um, you know, scripture says don't even you know, scripture says don't even you know, scripture says don't even don't even get involved in coarse joking don't even get involved in coarse joking don't even get involved in coarse joking or things like that. And so looking or things like that. And so looking or things like that. And so looking back, these individuals would tell jokes back, these individuals would tell jokes back, these individuals would tell jokes he's kind of go, I'm not sure that that he's kind of go, I'm not sure that that he's kind of go, I'm not sure that that was quite the thing to be telling. And was quite the thing to be telling. And was quite the thing to be telling. And again, it doesn't mean that everybody again, it doesn't mean that everybody again, it doesn't mean that everybody tells a coarse joke is going to fall off tells a coarse joke is going to fall off tells a coarse joke is going to fall off and do something immoral. And yet I look and do something immoral. And yet I look and do something immoral. And yet I look at patterns and go, okay, maybe what at patterns and go, okay, maybe what at patterns and go, okay, maybe what else is going on for them? Again, it's else is going on for them? Again, it's else is going on for them? Again, it's almost like what makes you think saying almost like what makes you think saying almost like what makes you think saying that is the right thing to say? And then that is the right thing to say? And then that is the right thing to say? And then you can start wondering what else is you can start wondering what else is you can start wondering what else is going on in their head or what other to going on in their head or what other to going on in their head or what other to make them feel okay with what they're make them feel okay with what they're make them feel okay with what they're saying or doing. And so I don't know, saying or doing. And so I don't know, saying or doing. And so I don't know, Carrie, it's and it's harder to it if I Carrie, it's and it's harder to it if I Carrie, it's and it's harder to it if I saw like if I saw you doing that saw like if I saw you doing that saw like if I saw you doing that would I call it out? I don't know. I I'd would I call it out? I don't know. I I'd would I call it out? I don't know. I I'd probably in my head go, oh man, why is probably in my head go, oh man, why is probably in my head go, oh man, why is Carrie making that joke or why does he Carrie making that joke or why does he Carrie making that joke or why does he think it's okay or why does Carrie think think it's okay or why does Carrie think think it's okay or why does Carrie think it's okay to be in that situation?

it's okay to be in that situation? it's okay to be in that situation? I guess I probably should call it out. I guess I probably should call it out. I guess I probably should call it out. Depends on who you were. If it was Depends on who you were. If it was Depends on who you were. If it was somebody that was close to me, I somebody that was close to me, I somebody that was close to me, I probably would question. If it's not, I probably would question. If it's not, I probably would question. If it's not, I don't know. don't know. don't know. >> I've been in those situations before too >> I've been in those situations before too >> I've been in those situations before too where there's 10 people around a table where there's 10 people around a table where there's 10 people around a table and you just kind of walk away going, and you just kind of walk away going, and you just kind of walk away going, oh, wow. oh, wow. oh, wow. Yeah. And at the time you didn't know, Yeah. And at the time you didn't know, Yeah. And at the time you didn't know, but later on you hear stories and it's but later on you hear stories and it's but later on you hear stories and it's like, oh, that's too bad. You put it like, oh, that's too bad. You put it like, oh, that's too bad. You put it together. Yeah. together. Yeah. together. Yeah. Um, one of the things that one of my Um, one of the things that one of my Um, one of the things that one of my counselors has said, I've heard other counselors has said, I've heard other counselors has said, I've heard other people say is that one of the patterns people say is that one of the patterns people say is that one of the patterns is a lack of close relationships. So is a lack of close relationships. So is a lack of close relationships. So any observation and you know, I was any observation and you know, I was any observation and you know, I was looking at some Barna data very looking at some Barna data very looking at some Barna data very recently. Pastors are still not good at recently. Pastors are still not good at recently. Pastors are still not good at relationships. We still we still are relationships. We still we still are relationships. We still we still are more lonely than we should be more lonely than we should be more lonely than we should be and we need to be. So David, you know, and we need to be. So David, you know, and we need to be. So David, you know, when you look at people who didn't make when you look at people who didn't make when you look at people who didn't make it, did you notice any relational it, did you notice any relational it, did you notice any relational patterns? And then the second part of patterns? And then the second part of patterns? And then the second part of the question is, the question is, the question is, you know, for you, how have you handled you know, for you, how have you handled you know, for you, how have you handled friendship and relationships over the friendship and relationships over the friendship and relationships over the years living in the same community now years living in the same community now years living in the same community now for 35 years? for 35 years? for 35 years? Yeah, so I'm more of an introvert than Yeah, so I'm more of an introvert than Yeah, so I'm more of an introvert than an extrovert. I'm most happy being with an extrovert. I'm most happy being with an extrovert. I'm most happy being with Ruth, my wife. We've now been married Ruth, my wife. We've now been married Ruth, my wife. We've now been married almost 47 years.

almost 47 years. almost 47 years. Truly, truly is my best friend and we Truly, truly is my best friend and we Truly, truly is my best friend and we have a very open authentic relationship, have a very open authentic relationship, have a very open authentic relationship, open with each other. Should be careful open with each other. Should be careful open with each other. Should be careful I say that cuz I can I say that cuz I can I say that cuz I can You're not having an open relationship. You're not having an open relationship. You're not having an open relationship. We're very authentic with one another. We're very authentic with one another. We're very authentic with one another. Yeah, but you're you're very Yeah, but you're you're very Yeah, but you're you're very transparent. Not every marriage has transparent. Not every marriage has transparent. Not every marriage has that. Not every marriage has that. And that. Not every marriage has that. And that. Not every marriage has that. And so, you know, I've been in relationships so, you know, I've been in relationships so, you know, I've been in relationships with men, even guys on our staff that we with men, even guys on our staff that we with men, even guys on our staff that we get together every week and we've got get together every week and we've got get together every week and we've got our set of questions that we're going to our set of questions that we're going to our set of questions that we're going to ask each other of did you do this, did ask each other of did you do this, did ask each other of did you do this, did you do that? And and you know, that's you do that? And and you know, that's you do that? And and you know, that's that's good, but we all know I can I can that's good, but we all know I can I can that's good, but we all know I can I can lie to anybody and if I'm doing lie to anybody and if I'm doing lie to anybody and if I'm doing something wrong something wrong something wrong it's very likely I'm going to lie about it's very likely I'm going to lie about it's very likely I'm going to lie about it. I'm not going to tell you that I'm it. I'm not going to tell you that I'm it. I'm not going to tell you that I'm doing it. And so for me it's always doing it. And so for me it's always doing it. And so for me it's always truly been more my relationship with truly been more my relationship with truly been more my relationship with Ruth and I'm an open book and you know, Ruth and I'm an open book and you know, Ruth and I'm an open book and you know, I can't even Carrie, I can't even lie to I can't even Carrie, I can't even lie to I can't even Carrie, I can't even lie to her about like I love Little Debbie her about like I love Little Debbie her about like I love Little Debbie Nutty Bars and if there's some in the Nutty Bars and if there's some in the Nutty Bars and if there's some in the cabinet and she's not home and I take cabinet and she's not home and I take cabinet and she's not home and I take one and she comes home one and she comes home one and she comes home and said, what have you been eating? Cuz and said, what have you been eating? Cuz and said, what have you been eating? Cuz she can smell it on my breath. I I can't she can smell it on my breath. I I can't she can smell it on my breath. I I can't even lie about that. So I mean, it's I'm even lie about that. So I mean, it's I'm even lie about that. So I mean, it's I'm just very transparent with Ruth that just very transparent with Ruth that just very transparent with Ruth that way. And so it truly is my relationship.

way. And so it truly is my relationship. way. And so it truly is my relationship. I think you do need somebody that you're I think you do need somebody that you're I think you do need somebody that you're transparent with that way and they can transparent with that way and they can transparent with that way and they can call you on things. And Ruth has a radar call you on things. And Ruth has a radar call you on things. And Ruth has a radar and if if even if I'm not doing anything and if if even if I'm not doing anything and if if even if I'm not doing anything wrong, but if there's somebody, it could wrong, but if there's somebody, it could wrong, but if there's somebody, it could be a man or a woman that she's just be a man or a woman that she's just be a man or a woman that she's just she's concerned about why they're trying she's concerned about why they're trying she's concerned about why they're trying to get close to me or if there's a woman to get close to me or if there's a woman to get close to me or if there's a woman that she just doesn't fully trust and that she just doesn't fully trust and that she just doesn't fully trust and she'll tell me and she'll say, I don't I she'll tell me and she'll say, I don't I she'll tell me and she'll say, I don't I think you need to be real careful around think you need to be real careful around think you need to be real careful around this person or that person. And and I this person or that person. And and I this person or that person. And and I need that because I don't always see need that because I don't always see need that because I don't always see that. So so it's those kind of things. I that. So so it's those kind of things. I that. So so it's those kind of things. I I didn't travel alone. Um, always took I didn't travel alone. Um, always took I didn't travel alone. Um, always took somebody with me. Still do that today somebody with me. Still do that today somebody with me. Still do that today and and and so again, it's just being careful and so again, it's just being careful and so again, it's just being careful and being smart about the situations we're being smart about the situations we're being smart about the situations we're in. in. in. Yeah, one of the things that and I'm Yeah, one of the things that and I'm Yeah, one of the things that and I'm skipping a a little bit ahead here. So skipping a a little bit ahead here. So skipping a a little bit ahead here. So feel free to back up if we missed feel free to back up if we missed feel free to back up if we missed anything, but there's some stuff I want anything, but there's some stuff I want anything, but there's some stuff I want to get to. I want to talk about your to get to. I want to talk about your to get to. I want to talk about your role, the GLN and everything, but role, the GLN and everything, but role, the GLN and everything, but you know, the succession seems to have you know, the succession seems to have you know, the succession seems to have gone really well at LCBC. We've had gone really well at LCBC. We've had gone really well at LCBC. We've had Jason Mitchell on. I've spent a little Jason Mitchell on. I've spent a little Jason Mitchell on. I've spent a little bit of time with him bit of time with him bit of time with him and very impressed. He has only great and very impressed. He has only great and very impressed. He has only great things to say about you publicly and things to say about you publicly and things to say about you publicly and privately. Good. And you're still living privately. Good. And you're still living privately. Good. And you're still living in the community. Yes.

in the community. Yes. in the community. Yes. >> Like >> Like >> Like is that still your church now on Sunday is that still your church now on Sunday is that still your church now on Sunday morning? morning? morning? >> Yeah, we still attend. I'm still >> Yeah, we still attend. I'm still >> Yeah, we still attend. I'm still technically on on the staff and we'll technically on on the staff and we'll technically on on the staff and we'll speak speak speak not a lot, before five times a year and not a lot, before five times a year and not a lot, before five times a year and so still involved there. Yes. So I have so still involved there. Yes. So I have so still involved there. Yes. So I have a very similar dynamic. I'm I'm not on a very similar dynamic. I'm I'm not on a very similar dynamic. I'm I'm not on staff anymore, but um, it's kind of staff anymore, but um, it's kind of staff anymore, but um, it's kind of weird still a decade out being part of weird still a decade out being part of weird still a decade out being part of the church that you used to lead. How the church that you used to lead. How the church that you used to lead. How has that felt for you? has that felt for you? has that felt for you? Yeah, it is an interesting Yeah, it is an interesting Yeah, it is an interesting dynamic, Carrie. So our succession dynamic, Carrie. So our succession dynamic, Carrie. So our succession process, the way it started even back process, the way it started even back process, the way it started even back when I was in my mid-50s, I happen to when I was in my mid-50s, I happen to when I was in my mid-50s, I happen to have opportunity to sit around a table have opportunity to sit around a table have opportunity to sit around a table with about 15 people and Jim Collins, with about 15 people and Jim Collins, with about 15 people and Jim Collins, the Good to Great writer. Cool. And as the Good to Great writer. Cool. And as the Good to Great writer. Cool. And as he's talking, he's sharing his five he's talking, he's sharing his five he's talking, he's sharing his five levels of leadership and so Yeah. levels of leadership and so Yeah. levels of leadership and so Yeah. quietly in my head, arrogantly I'm quietly in my head, arrogantly I'm quietly in my head, arrogantly I'm thinking, well, surely when he gets to thinking, well, surely when he gets to thinking, well, surely when he gets to level five, his top level, he's going to level five, his top level, he's going to level five, his top level, he's going to describe me. And I'm thinking I must be describe me. And I'm thinking I must be describe me. And I'm thinking I must be surely a level five leader. And when he surely a level five leader. And when he surely a level five leader. And when he gets to level five he describes it, but gets to level five he describes it, but gets to level five he describes it, but he made a comment that just really kind he made a comment that just really kind he made a comment that just really kind of blew me away and he said, you're of blew me away and he said, you're of blew me away and he said, you're never a level five leader until you've never a level five leader until you've never a level five leader until you've actually left your organization and it's actually left your organization and it's actually left your organization and it's better when you're gone than when you're better when you're gone than when you're better when you're gone than when you're there.

there. there. And truthfully, that's not what I I had And truthfully, that's not what I I had And truthfully, that's not what I I had expected. I thought I thought when I expected. I thought I thought when I expected. I thought I thought when I leave, there's going to be weeping and leave, there's going to be weeping and leave, there's going to be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I told the gnashing of teeth. I told the gnashing of teeth. I told the congregation, I said, I I I hope there's congregation, I said, I I I hope there's congregation, I said, I I I hope there's weeping and gnashing of teeth and I hope weeping and gnashing of teeth and I hope weeping and gnashing of teeth and I hope there's some disruption so all of you there's some disruption so all of you there's some disruption so all of you will realize what a great leader I was. will realize what a great leader I was. will realize what a great leader I was. And and Jim Collins that day just said, And and Jim Collins that day just said, And and Jim Collins that day just said, if that happens, he said, you're not a if that happens, he said, you're not a if that happens, he said, you're not a good leader. And so that really rattled good leader. And so that really rattled good leader. And so that really rattled me and that started me on this 10-12 me and that started me on this 10-12 me and that started me on this 10-12 year process of saying, I want to do year process of saying, I want to do year process of saying, I want to do whatever I have to do to make sure whatever I have to do to make sure whatever I have to do to make sure LCBC's better when I'm gone than when LCBC's better when I'm gone than when LCBC's better when I'm gone than when I'm there. And so that involved a I'm there. And so that involved a I'm there. And so that involved a variety of things. We we had to variety of things. We we had to variety of things. We we had to reorganize the staff structure and we'd reorganize the staff structure and we'd reorganize the staff structure and we'd done that five or six times at that to done that five or six times at that to done that five or six times at that to that point, but had to reorganize the that point, but had to reorganize the that point, but had to reorganize the staff to be ready to move into the staff to be ready to move into the staff to be ready to move into the future. future. future. It meant finances. We had debt at that It meant finances. We had debt at that It meant finances. We had debt at that time. We got to a point we were debt time. We got to a point we were debt time. We got to a point we were debt free and then we got to a point where free and then we got to a point where free and then we got to a point where we're this huge war chest to go forward. we're this huge war chest to go forward. we're this huge war chest to go forward. We planned future campuses. We got the We planned future campuses. We got the We planned future campuses. We got the church used to different voices. So at church used to different voices. So at church used to different voices. So at that point I had been teaching most of that point I had been teaching most of that point I had been teaching most of the time and so we revolve evolved into the time and so we revolve evolved into the time and so we revolve evolved into a teaching team and that was a teaching team and that was a teaching team and that was a challenge the first several years a challenge the first several years a challenge the first several years where but they got to the point where where but they got to the point where where but they got to the point where they love hearing other voices. And as they love hearing other voices. And as they love hearing other voices. And as we talked about it from a board we talked about it from a board we talked about it from a board standpoint, we could have waited until I standpoint, we could have waited until I standpoint, we could have waited until I stepped away and let the next leader stepped away and let the next leader stepped away and let the next leader deal with it. We thought, no, let's do deal with it. We thought, no, let's do deal with it. We thought, no, let's do it now while I'm here. I still have a it now while I'm here. I still have a it now while I'm here. I still have a lot of chips in my pocket as far as a lot of chips in my pocket as far as a lot of chips in my pocket as far as a leader. And so let's go through whatever leader. And so let's go through whatever leader. And so let's go through whatever hard times we need to go through now so hard times we need to go through now so hard times we need to go through now so the next person can do well.

the next person can do well. the next person can do well. Part of it was, Part of it was, Part of it was, you know, figuring out who my successor you know, figuring out who my successor you know, figuring out who my successor was and so I very early on felt like was and so I very early on felt like was and so I very early on felt like Jason was the right person to take my Jason was the right person to take my Jason was the right person to take my place. place. place. Um, the good thing is this was way early Um, the good thing is this was way early Um, the good thing is this was way early in the process. So like I said, it for in the process. So like I said, it for in the process. So like I said, it for me it was a 10-12 year plan and so when me it was a 10-12 year plan and so when me it was a 10-12 year plan and so when I first brought Jason's name to I first brought Jason's name to I first brought Jason's name to to the succession team, they instantly to the succession team, they instantly to the succession team, they instantly said, no, there's no way. And so I said, said, no, there's no way. And so I said, said, no, there's no way. And so I said, well, tell me why. And so they named well, tell me why. And so they named well, tell me why. And so they named four, five, six different deficiencies four, five, six different deficiencies four, five, six different deficiencies that they saw. And so the good thing is that they saw. And so the good thing is that they saw. And so the good thing is when you start real early and you've got when you start real early and you've got when you start real early and you've got time, then you can work on those time, then you can work on those time, then you can work on those deficiencies. So I said, okay, let's deficiencies. So I said, okay, let's deficiencies. So I said, okay, let's let's work on those. And so it was more let's work on those. And so it was more let's work on those. And so it was more theological training. It was helping him theological training. It was helping him theological training. It was helping him be a better communicator. It was making be a better communicator. It was making be a better communicator. It was making sure that he truly could lead a full sure that he truly could lead a full sure that he truly could lead a full organization. It was So it was a variety organization. It was So it was a variety organization. It was So it was a variety of things like that. And so by the time of things like that. And so by the time of things like that. And so by the time we worked on all those things and came we worked on all those things and came we worked on all those things and came back then seven years later to that same back then seven years later to that same back then seven years later to that same group on the succession team and said, I group on the succession team and said, I group on the succession team and said, I still think it's Jason, what do you still think it's Jason, what do you still think it's Jason, what do you think? And then it was like, oh, of think? And then it was like, oh, of think? And then it was like, oh, of course it's Jason. So when I talk with course it's Jason. So when I talk with course it's Jason. So when I talk with people, Carrie, about succession, I just people, Carrie, about succession, I just people, Carrie, about succession, I just say, first of all, time's either your say, first of all, time's either your say, first of all, time's either your best friend or your worst enemy.

best friend or your worst enemy. best friend or your worst enemy. And if you don't start early, then And if you don't start early, then And if you don't start early, then you're going to be to a point of you you're going to be to a point of you you're going to be to a point of you just take whoever you can find or you're just take whoever you can find or you're just take whoever you can find or you're going to have to go outside the going to have to go outside the going to have to go outside the organization and bring somebody in and organization and bring somebody in and organization and bring somebody in and sometimes that works. But I was taught sometimes that works. But I was taught sometimes that works. But I was taught that if you like the direction you're that if you like the direction you're that if you like the direction you're going as a church or an organization, going as a church or an organization, going as a church or an organization, then you hire an internal candidate. If then you hire an internal candidate. If then you hire an internal candidate. If you don't like the direction, you bring you don't like the direction, you bring you don't like the direction, you bring somebody from the outside because the somebody from the outside because the somebody from the outside because the reality is somebody from the outside is reality is somebody from the outside is reality is somebody from the outside is going to change the direction. And you going to change the direction. And you going to change the direction. And you and I know as Christians we all talk the and I know as Christians we all talk the and I know as Christians we all talk the same language, it means very different same language, it means very different same language, it means very different things. And so you're going to go things. And so you're going to go things. And so you're going to go different directions. So as a board we different directions. So as a board we different directions. So as a board we talked and said we love the direction talked and said we love the direction talked and said we love the direction we're going, we want to keep it going we're going, we want to keep it going we're going, we want to keep it going that way. So right away that brought us that way. So right away that brought us that way. So right away that brought us to an internal candidate and there were to an internal candidate and there were to an internal candidate and there were several different people that I several different people that I several different people that I considered, but again because we had considered, but again because we had considered, but again because we had time then it allowed Jason to grow and time then it allowed Jason to grow and time then it allowed Jason to grow and develop and he's doing a fantastic job. develop and he's doing a fantastic job. develop and he's doing a fantastic job. But had we not had you know had I waited But had we not had you know had I waited But had we not had you know had I waited two years and came at that point, it two years and came at that point, it two years and came at that point, it wouldn't be Jason today. Um wouldn't be Jason today. Um wouldn't be Jason today. Um and so it just it'd be a very different and so it just it'd be a very different and so it just it'd be a very different scenario. scenario. scenario. One of one of my other biases Carey, One of one of my other biases Carey, One of one of my other biases Carey, people will say well that's great you people will say well that's great you people will say well that's great you had Jason in your church. We don't have had Jason in your church. We don't have had Jason in your church. We don't have somebody like that. And I would say you somebody like that. And I would say you somebody like that. And I would say you know I think you might. I I think that know I think you might. I I think that know I think you might. I I think that God puts the people in our path in our God puts the people in our path in our God puts the people in our path in our church. The problem is we don't develop church. The problem is we don't develop church. The problem is we don't develop those people and we expect to have a those people and we expect to have a those people and we expect to have a fully developed ready to step into my fully developed ready to step into my fully developed ready to step into my shoes candidate right behind us and that shoes candidate right behind us and that shoes candidate right behind us and that it doesn't happen.

it doesn't happen. it doesn't happen. You've got to work with them, develop You've got to work with them, develop You've got to work with them, develop them and and Jason and I joked and said them and and Jason and I joked and said them and and Jason and I joked and said for the last five years before I stepped for the last five years before I stepped for the last five years before I stepped away away away we were together more than we were we were together more than we were we were together more than we were together with our spouses. But it was together with our spouses. But it was together with our spouses. But it was just part of that development process so just part of that development process so just part of that development process so that you know you just help him see how that you know you just help him see how that you know you just help him see how how to think through different how to think through different how to think through different scenarios, situations. And so I think scenarios, situations. And so I think scenarios, situations. And so I think developing your successor is huge. Well, developing your successor is huge. Well, developing your successor is huge. Well, the other thing that's not fair to a the other thing that's not fair to a the other thing that's not fair to a Jason or a Jeff Roddy who took over for Jason or a Jeff Roddy who took over for Jason or a Jeff Roddy who took over for me me me is you know LCBC your is you know LCBC your is you know LCBC your leadership skill grew with the church. leadership skill grew with the church. leadership skill grew with the church. It's not like right out of the bottle in It's not like right out of the bottle in It's not like right out of the bottle in 1991 you're ready to 22,000 people over 1991 you're ready to 22,000 people over 1991 you're ready to 22,000 people over multiple locations. You weren't ready. I multiple locations. You weren't ready. I multiple locations. You weren't ready. I wasn't ready to lead a church over a wasn't ready to lead a church over a wasn't ready to lead a church over a thousand. I wasn't ready even with this thousand. I wasn't ready even with this thousand. I wasn't ready even with this podcast. I've grown into this over 11 podcast. I've grown into this over 11 podcast. I've grown into this over 11 years, right? The hobby becomes my years, right? The hobby becomes my years, right? The hobby becomes my full-time job. Um full-time job. Um full-time job. Um and then a successor has to come in boom and then a successor has to come in boom and then a successor has to come in boom right out of the bottle and work and it right out of the bottle and work and it right out of the bottle and work and it just doesn't work that way. Exactly. just doesn't work that way. Exactly. just doesn't work that way. Exactly. Yeah, so Yeah, so Yeah, so to your original question, how do you to your original question, how do you to your original question, how do you stay after? Was kind of one of your stay after? Was kind of one of your stay after? Was kind of one of your questions. And and one of the things I questions. And and one of the things I questions. And and one of the things I had to decide early on Carey is had to decide early on Carey is had to decide early on Carey is is this about me or is it about LCBC is this about me or is it about LCBC is this about me or is it about LCBC even in my transition? And if and I even in my transition? And if and I even in my transition? And if and I listen to pastors all the time and listen to pastors all the time and listen to pastors all the time and they'll say yeah, I think I'm going to they'll say yeah, I think I'm going to they'll say yeah, I think I'm going to step away when my kids are finished with step away when my kids are finished with step away when my kids are finished with high school or I think I'm going to step high school or I think I'm going to step high school or I think I'm going to step away when my kids have graduated from away when my kids have graduated from away when my kids have graduated from college and I mean I understand the college and I mean I understand the college and I mean I understand the practical side of that, but I also look practical side of that, but I also look practical side of that, but I also look and go okay, so hmm God's calling in and go okay, so hmm God's calling in and go okay, so hmm God's calling in your life is really wrapped up on when your life is really wrapped up on when your life is really wrapped up on when you're you know 17 or 18 year old you're you know 17 or 18 year old you're you know 17 or 18 year old finishes high school or your 22 year old

finishes high school or your 22 year old finishes high school or your 22 year old either does or doesn't finish college either does or doesn't finish college either does or doesn't finish college and it just doesn't seem right that way and it just doesn't seem right that way and it just doesn't seem right that way to me. And so I really said it's it's to me. And so I really said it's it's to me. And so I really said it's it's what's best for LCBC and I still took what's best for LCBC and I still took what's best for LCBC and I still took care of myself where you know I had to care of myself where you know I had to care of myself where you know I had to make arrangements with the board in make arrangements with the board in make arrangements with the board in writing. This is what will happen when I writing. This is what will happen when I writing. This is what will happen when I step away. step away. step away. I said to the board I said to the board I said to the board 10 years before I stepped away, if you 10 years before I stepped away, if you 10 years before I stepped away, if you guys will take care of me and I don't guys will take care of me and I don't guys will take care of me and I don't have to build a second career because have to build a second career because have to build a second career because often times you'll hear you got to know often times you'll hear you got to know often times you'll hear you got to know what you're going into next before you what you're going into next before you what you're going into next before you step away. step away. step away. And so I just said to the board if I'm And so I just said to the board if I'm And so I just said to the board if I'm going to do that, that means I need to going to do that, that means I need to going to do that, that means I need to start now building my next career so to start now building my next career so to start now building my next career so to speak. And I don't want to take my eyes speak. And I don't want to take my eyes speak. And I don't want to take my eyes off of LCBC. I want to stay totally off of LCBC. I want to stay totally off of LCBC. I want to stay totally focused on LCBC till the Sunday I walk focused on LCBC till the Sunday I walk focused on LCBC till the Sunday I walk away. And so I just need to know that away. And so I just need to know that away. And so I just need to know that for several years you're going to take for several years you're going to take for several years you're going to take care of me for me to be able to do that. care of me for me to be able to do that. care of me for me to be able to do that. And again I'd say you got to have that And again I'd say you got to have that And again I'd say you got to have that in writing and we had lawyers look at in writing and we had lawyers look at in writing and we had lawyers look at it. A handshake isn't I hate to say it, it. A handshake isn't I hate to say it, it. A handshake isn't I hate to say it, it's not good enough. Um and I've talked it's not good enough. Um and I've talked it's not good enough. Um and I've talked to so many guys that well the board said to so many guys that well the board said to so many guys that well the board said and then two or three years later the and then two or three years later the and then two or three years later the board forgets and it's not good. So board forgets and it's not good. So board forgets and it's not good. So Yeah. Wow. Did you and Jason develop any Yeah. Wow. Did you and Jason develop any Yeah. Wow. Did you and Jason develop any rules about what you would do and not do rules about what you would do and not do rules about what you would do and not do because I think it takes a lot of because I think it takes a lot of because I think it takes a lot of humility David humility David humility David to do what you've done. You know, to do what you've done. You know, to do what you've done. You know, because if you don't have any humility, because if you don't have any humility, because if you don't have any humility, guess what? You've just blown up Jason's guess what? You've just blown up Jason's guess what? You've just blown up Jason's life and LCBC's life and life and LCBC's life and life and LCBC's life and you've you've you've talked earlier you've you've you've talked earlier you've you've you've talked earlier about not wanting any gossip which I about not wanting any gossip which I about not wanting any gossip which I agree with, but agree with, but agree with, but man, you have so much power. All you man, you have so much power. All you man, you have so much power. All you have to do is whisper to somebody have to do is whisper to somebody have to do is whisper to somebody >> Yeah. and it can spread like a wildfire >> Yeah. and it can spread like a wildfire >> Yeah. and it can spread like a wildfire through the church. So what what what through the church. So what what what through the church. So what what what rules did you develop or what are you

rules did you develop or what are you rules did you develop or what are you doing that is making it possible for doing that is making it possible for doing that is making it possible for Jason not only to lead but to thrive and Jason not only to lead but to thrive and Jason not only to lead but to thrive and for LCBC to thrive? What do you think for LCBC to thrive? What do you think for LCBC to thrive? What do you think people in your shoes and my shoes have people in your shoes and my shoes have people in your shoes and my shoes have to do? Well, very early on he and I said to do? Well, very early on he and I said to do? Well, very early on he and I said we will always be honest and open with we will always be honest and open with we will always be honest and open with each other and talk to each other and each other and talk to each other and each other and talk to each other and whatever our feelings are let's talk whatever our feelings are let's talk whatever our feelings are let's talk about them. So even for years through about them. So even for years through about them. So even for years through that process, there were times where that process, there were times where that process, there were times where Jason would start getting impatient and Jason would start getting impatient and Jason would start getting impatient and say I feel like I'm just spinning my say I feel like I'm just spinning my say I feel like I'm just spinning my wheels. What am I doing here? And so he wheels. What am I doing here? And so he wheels. What am I doing here? And so he would come and he'd tell me that and I'd would come and he'd tell me that and I'd would come and he'd tell me that and I'd say you know what? I felt exactly that say you know what? I felt exactly that say you know what? I felt exactly that same way at some point in my life. We'd same way at some point in my life. We'd same way at some point in my life. We'd talk it through and I'd say here's why I talk it through and I'd say here's why I talk it through and I'd say here's why I think it's worth waiting, but you got to think it's worth waiting, but you got to think it's worth waiting, but you got to decide that. So we would talk through decide that. So we would talk through decide that. So we would talk through that. Um when I did step away Carey, I that. Um when I did step away Carey, I that. Um when I did step away Carey, I made the decision to stay away for 12 made the decision to stay away for 12 made the decision to stay away for 12 months. Um so I'll even back up a step. months. Um so I'll even back up a step. months. Um so I'll even back up a step. You know, I stepped away in November and You know, I stepped away in November and You know, I stepped away in November and again if it was about me, I'd have again if it was about me, I'd have again if it was about me, I'd have stepped away January because every stepped away January because every stepped away January because every pastor loves to preach Christmas pastor loves to preach Christmas pastor loves to preach Christmas gatherings and you know we have 40,000 gatherings and you know we have 40,000 gatherings and you know we have 40,000 plus people at a Christmas Eve. What a plus people at a Christmas Eve. What a plus people at a Christmas Eve. What a great way to go out. But I I thought you great way to go out. But I I thought you great way to go out. But I I thought you know okay, I can do that, but if I'm know okay, I can do that, but if I'm know okay, I can do that, but if I'm putting LCBC first, better for those putting LCBC first, better for those putting LCBC first, better for those 40,000 people to hear the new guy than 40,000 people to hear the new guy than 40,000 people to hear the new guy than the old guy and kind of the old guy and kind of the old guy and kind of seeing him out. And so so I stepped away seeing him out. And so so I stepped away seeing him out. And so so I stepped away so that he could take those Christmas so that he could take those Christmas so that he could take those Christmas gatherings. Um it's it's just a little gatherings. Um it's it's just a little gatherings. Um it's it's just a little things like that. And so putting the things like that. And so putting the things like that. And so putting the church first and again I still was church first and again I still was church first and again I still was concerned about me, but um stepping away concerned about me, but um stepping away concerned about me, but um stepping away from me, I knew that it was going to be from me, I knew that it was going to be from me, I knew that it was going to be hard and feel like a loss. I joked the

hard and feel like a loss. I joked the hard and feel like a loss. I joked the last month that I was coming to church last month that I was coming to church last month that I was coming to church and I said I feel like I'm driving to my and I said I feel like I'm driving to my and I said I feel like I'm driving to my own funeral every weekend. And so it was own funeral every weekend. And so it was own funeral every weekend. And so it was hard. Stepping away was good for me. If hard. Stepping away was good for me. If hard. Stepping away was good for me. If I were only stepping away three months, I were only stepping away three months, I were only stepping away three months, it would have been like a long vacation it would have been like a long vacation it would have been like a long vacation or sabbatical. Even six months probably or sabbatical. Even six months probably or sabbatical. Even six months probably was too soon. was too soon. was too soon. I thought that those 12 months were for I thought that those 12 months were for I thought that those 12 months were for the good of the church that it would the good of the church that it would the good of the church that it would help them break from me and that help them break from me and that help them break from me and that definitely happened. But it also was for definitely happened. But it also was for definitely happened. But it also was for me because I know myself I had to step me because I know myself I had to step me because I know myself I had to step back into conversations or situations I back into conversations or situations I back into conversations or situations I had no business stepping into and so I had no business stepping into and so I had no business stepping into and so I needed that break and the church needed needed that break and the church needed needed that break and the church needed it from me. Um I don't office at the it from me. Um I don't office at the it from me. Um I don't office at the church. We have offices someplace else church. We have offices someplace else church. We have offices someplace else and that was important because again and that was important because again and that was important because again it'd be real easy for me to it'd be real easy for me to it'd be real easy for me to go to somebody's office and question go to somebody's office and question go to somebody's office and question what they're doing, why they're doing what they're doing, why they're doing what they're doing, why they're doing it. So I I'm not I don't go to staff it. So I I'm not I don't go to staff it. So I I'm not I don't go to staff meetings. I I'm really just more of a meetings. I I'm really just more of a meetings. I I'm really just more of a church member for the most part. And church member for the most part. And church member for the most part. And Jason still calls me on a fairly regular Jason still calls me on a fairly regular Jason still calls me on a fairly regular basis and we'll talk through different basis and we'll talk through different basis and we'll talk through different situations, but um situations, but um situations, but um yeah, it so I'll tell you that what yeah, it so I'll tell you that what yeah, it so I'll tell you that what surprised me.

surprised me. surprised me. Um Um Um nobody had told me about the emotion of nobody had told me about the emotion of nobody had told me about the emotion of pride or am I getting the recognition pride or am I getting the recognition pride or am I getting the recognition that I feel like I ought to be getting? that I feel like I ought to be getting? that I feel like I ought to be getting? Those are the two emotions that hit me. Those are the two emotions that hit me. Those are the two emotions that hit me. Never expected it. And so I I probably Never expected it. And so I I probably Never expected it. And so I I probably spent more time the last two years Carey spent more time the last two years Carey spent more time the last two years Carey confessing to God and saying God I am so confessing to God and saying God I am so confessing to God and saying God I am so sorry. Um pride is popping up here. Um sorry. Um pride is popping up here. Um sorry. Um pride is popping up here. Um that desire to and it's it's the that desire to and it's it's the that desire to and it's it's the stupidest things. Um stupidest things. Um stupidest things. Um you know it's in a vision casting you know it's in a vision casting you know it's in a vision casting environment and and they're talking environment and and they're talking environment and and they're talking about the next campus that's going to be about the next campus that's going to be about the next campus that's going to be opened up and opened up and opened up and I just want to go well wait a minute. I just want to go well wait a minute. I just want to go well wait a minute. Does everybody realize I planned that Does everybody realize I planned that Does everybody realize I planned that campus and I raised the money for that campus and I raised the money for that campus and I raised the money for that campus and you know are you seeing me campus and you know are you seeing me campus and you know are you seeing me here? And and it's not about me and it here? And and it's not about me and it here? And and it's not about me and it never was about me, but that's the kind never was about me, but that's the kind never was about me, but that's the kind of stuff that comes up or Jason and I of stuff that comes up or Jason and I of stuff that comes up or Jason and I joked about there was one um joked about there was one um joked about there was one um one service and he happened to catch my one service and he happened to catch my one service and he happened to catch my eye right as he was saying this, but he eye right as he was saying this, but he eye right as he was saying this, but he was saying announcing something. He said was saying announcing something. He said was saying announcing something. He said we're going to do something we've never we're going to do something we've never we're going to do something we've never done before. And right as he said that, done before. And right as he said that, done before. And right as he said that, he said he thought and I thought we've he said he thought and I thought we've he said he thought and I thought we've done that dozens of times before. And so done that dozens of times before. And so done that dozens of times before. And so it's it's just little things like that it's it's just little things like that it's it's just little things like that that that that that but it's it's all pride. It's just that but it's it's all pride. It's just that but it's it's all pride. It's just and so you have to swallow that or you and so you have to swallow that or you and so you have to swallow that or you have to confess that. If you let that have to confess that. If you let that have to confess that. If you let that brew, it would be easy to make a brew, it would be easy to make a brew, it would be easy to make a statement or a comment and blow things statement or a comment and blow things statement or a comment and blow things up and up and up and and so I just yeah, it's it's a lot of and so I just yeah, it's it's a lot of and so I just yeah, it's it's a lot of confessing to God and saying I'm sorry.

confessing to God and saying I'm sorry. confessing to God and saying I'm sorry. It's taken several years Carey to get It's taken several years Carey to get It's taken several years Carey to get there. Um I've said to a couple people I there. Um I've said to a couple people I there. Um I've said to a couple people I think this jury to me is still out as to think this jury to me is still out as to think this jury to me is still out as to how involved a person can still be how involved a person can still be how involved a person can still be after 28 years in your case or 32 years after 28 years in your case or 32 years after 28 years in your case or 32 years in my case. in my case. in my case. It's just because the emotions are It's just because the emotions are It's just because the emotions are strong. It's tough. So Jeff and I strong. It's tough. So Jeff and I strong. It's tough. So Jeff and I realized I have to basically bail realized I have to basically bail realized I have to basically bail except for him. Like just sit in a row, except for him. Like just sit in a row, except for him. Like just sit in a row, have have have normal conversations with people in the normal conversations with people in the normal conversations with people in the lobby. Yeah. And if anything, it's lobby. Yeah. And if anything, it's lobby. Yeah. And if anything, it's probably led to me withdrawing more than probably led to me withdrawing more than probably led to me withdrawing more than engaging. Yes. engaging. Yes. engaging. Yes. >> But I feel like you know, we can be part >> But I feel like you know, we can be part >> But I feel like you know, we can be part of a small group, we can give and then I of a small group, we can give and then I of a small group, we can give and then I meet with Jeff every other week at his meet with Jeff every other week at his meet with Jeff every other week at his request. Yeah. And that's sort of an request. Yeah. And that's sort of an request. Yeah. And that's sort of an open session mostly for him really. open session mostly for him really. open session mostly for him really. And you know, it's it's it but it's And you know, it's it's it but it's And you know, it's it's it but it's swallowing that pride. Gordon McDonald swallowing that pride. Gordon McDonald swallowing that pride. Gordon McDonald when I was stepping away away when I was stepping away away when I was stepping away away five years ago, I asked him you know, five years ago, I asked him you know, five years ago, I asked him you know, what did you learn? What should I be what did you learn? What should I be what did you learn? What should I be aware of? And he just said ah they aware of? And he just said ah they aware of? And he just said ah they forget you quickly. forget you quickly. forget you quickly. And boy oh boy was he right. Yeah. Yeah.

And boy oh boy was he right. Yeah. Yeah. And boy oh boy was he right. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz the ego in you is like yeah, I used Cuz the ego in you is like yeah, I used Cuz the ego in you is like yeah, I used to do that or hey, I think I came up to do that or hey, I think I came up to do that or hey, I think I came up with that and it's nobody cares. Nobody with that and it's nobody cares. Nobody with that and it's nobody cares. Nobody cares and nobody knows. Right. And cares and nobody knows. Right. And cares and nobody knows. Right. And Carey, the staff will use or Jason will Carey, the staff will use or Jason will Carey, the staff will use or Jason will use a phrase that I used all the time. use a phrase that I used all the time. use a phrase that I used all the time. And the first several times it would And the first several times it would And the first several times it would like well that's my phrase. Yeah, TM TM like well that's my phrase. Yeah, TM TM like well that's my phrase. Yeah, TM TM David Ashcraft. Exactly. But then I David Ashcraft. Exactly. But then I David Ashcraft. Exactly. But then I realized you know what? realized you know what? realized you know what? To your point, nobody's going to To your point, nobody's going to To your point, nobody's going to remember me or my name five, 10 years remember me or my name five, 10 years remember me or my name five, 10 years from now. The only legacy I will leave from now. The only legacy I will leave from now. The only legacy I will leave are the character qualities or even are the character qualities or even are the character qualities or even statements that get carried from Jason statements that get carried from Jason statements that get carried from Jason to the next person to the next person. to the next person to the next person. to the next person to the next person. And that's really my legacy. And it's And that's really my legacy. And it's And that's really my legacy. And it's not my name. And so if you think about not my name. And so if you think about not my name. And so if you think about it, what more would I want than it, what more would I want than it, what more would I want than qualities that maybe I hope I possess qualities that maybe I hope I possess qualities that maybe I hope I possess got transferred to Jason, they'll get got transferred to Jason, they'll get got transferred to Jason, they'll get transferred to the next person and the transferred to the next person and the transferred to the next person and the next person. That's where it goes on and next person. That's where it goes on and next person. That's where it goes on and on and on and on and and but it again it takes humility to and but it again it takes humility to and but it again it takes humility to say it's not about my name or people say it's not about my name or people say it's not about my name or people noticing me. And so yeah, that's the noticing me. And so yeah, that's the noticing me. And so yeah, that's the challenge. I get it. I get it. You know challenge. I get it. I get it. You know challenge. I get it. I get it. You know what? And we keep having this what? And we keep having this what? And we keep having this conversation on the show because conversation on the show because conversation on the show because I think over the next 10 years, 50% of I think over the next 10 years, 50% of I think over the next 10 years, 50% of churches are going to transition like churches are going to transition like churches are going to transition like this. So, it's not a not a moot issue.

this. So, it's not a not a moot issue. this. So, it's not a not a moot issue. Yeah. Um Yeah. Um Yeah. Um so then, a few months after stepping so then, a few months after stepping so then, a few months after stepping down in the official role, you get down in the official role, you get down in the official role, you get yourself a new job. You want to tell us yourself a new job. You want to tell us yourself a new job. You want to tell us about that? about that? about that? Well, when I stepped away, I never said Well, when I stepped away, I never said Well, when I stepped away, I never said I was I said constantly, "I'm not I was I said constantly, "I'm not I was I said constantly, "I'm not retiring. I'm just moving on to the next retiring. I'm just moving on to the next retiring. I'm just moving on to the next thing." And so, the thought was, and I thing." And so, the thought was, and I thing." And so, the thought was, and I still do work with pastors here in still do work with pastors here in still do work with pastors here in Pennsylvania, and we started an Pennsylvania, and we started an Pennsylvania, and we started an organization called the Advantage, and organization called the Advantage, and organization called the Advantage, and uh reached out to the largest churches uh reached out to the largest churches uh reached out to the largest churches in Pennsylvania, the 80 largest in Pennsylvania, the 80 largest in Pennsylvania, the 80 largest churches, invited the the pastors to churches, invited the the pastors to churches, invited the the pastors to come and meet with us for 1 day to talk come and meet with us for 1 day to talk come and meet with us for 1 day to talk about how we can introduce more people about how we can introduce more people about how we can introduce more people to Jesus in Pennsylvania. So, Cool. to Jesus in Pennsylvania. So, Cool. to Jesus in Pennsylvania. So, Cool. >> 74 of those pastors took us up on that >> 74 of those pastors took us up on that >> 74 of those pastors took us up on that invitation. There's four of us that work invitation. There's four of us that work invitation. There's four of us that work in this what we call the Advantage. Then in this what we call the Advantage. Then in this what we call the Advantage. Then at that meeting, as we talked, we said, at that meeting, as we talked, we said, at that meeting, as we talked, we said, "Would you guys be interested in meeting "Would you guys be interested in meeting "Would you guys be interested in meeting in cohorts twice a year for 24 hours?" in cohorts twice a year for 24 hours?" in cohorts twice a year for 24 hours?" And 64 of those pastors took us up on And 64 of those pastors took us up on And 64 of those pastors took us up on that. So, we've been doing that now for that. So, we've been doing that now for that. So, we've been doing that now for it'll be 2 years in March. To be in it'll be 2 years in March. To be in it'll be 2 years in March. To be in those groups, what they had to commit those groups, what they had to commit those groups, what they had to commit doesn't cost them anything, but to be in doesn't cost them anything, but to be in doesn't cost them anything, but to be in those groups, they had to commit that those groups, they had to commit that those groups, they had to commit that they would in turn form groups of 10 or they would in turn form groups of 10 or they would in turn form groups of 10 or 12 pastors in their area, and they would 12 pastors in their area, and they would 12 pastors in their area, and they would pour into their pastors those pastors.

pour into their pastors those pastors. pour into their pastors those pastors. And so now, we've got 361 pastors in a And so now, we've got 361 pastors in a And so now, we've got 361 pastors in a year and a half that are part of those year and a half that are part of those year and a half that are part of those cohorts. We think by March we'll be cohorts. We think by March we'll be cohorts. We think by March we'll be right around 500, maybe 600 pastors in right around 500, maybe 600 pastors in right around 500, maybe 600 pastors in Pennsylvania. And all just to say, how Pennsylvania. And all just to say, how Pennsylvania. And all just to say, how do we introduce more people to Jesus? do we introduce more people to Jesus? do we introduce more people to Jesus? So, that's a real cool thing that I get So, that's a real cool thing that I get So, that's a real cool thing that I get to be a part of and loving that. to be a part of and loving that. to be a part of and loving that. Wow. Wow. Wow. >> it's that's been exciting. So, I thought >> it's that's been exciting. So, I thought >> it's that's been exciting. So, I thought that was going to be what I was doing in that was going to be what I was doing in that was going to be what I was doing in the future. the future. the future. >> Right. This is this is the future. Yeah, >> Right. This is this is the future. Yeah, >> Right. This is this is the future. Yeah, and about 3 months in, well, two things and about 3 months in, well, two things and about 3 months in, well, two things happened. Uh one, Ruth at some point um happened. Uh one, Ruth at some point um happened. Uh one, Ruth at some point um sat me down at home. She said, "You need sat me down at home. She said, "You need sat me down at home. She said, "You need to go find something else to lead." And to go find something else to lead." And to go find something else to lead." And um apparently, I'd been trying to lead um apparently, I'd been trying to lead um apparently, I'd been trying to lead around the house more than she wanted. around the house more than she wanted. around the house more than she wanted. And so, her comment was, "You need to go And so, her comment was, "You need to go And so, her comment was, "You need to go find something else to lead, and it's find something else to lead, and it's find something else to lead, and it's not me." not me." not me." And so uh so that one gave me permission And so uh so that one gave me permission And so uh so that one gave me permission to look around. I'm not to look around. I'm not to look around. I'm not I'm not a fix-it person at home. I don't I'm not a fix-it person at home. I don't I'm not a fix-it person at home. I don't have hobbies, Carrie. I My life was my have hobbies, Carrie. I My life was my have hobbies, Carrie. I My life was my family, it was the church. And family, it was the church. And family, it was the church. And I know that we're challenged all the I know that we're challenged all the I know that we're challenged all the time to have a balanced life. I do not time to have a balanced life. I do not time to have a balanced life. I do not believe in a balanced life. I think that believe in a balanced life. I think that believe in a balanced life. I think that um Mhm. if you're going to excel at um Mhm. if you're going to excel at um Mhm. if you're going to excel at something, then you're going to have to something, then you're going to have to something, then you're going to have to give up some things. And so for me, I give up some things. And so for me, I give up some things. And so for me, I gave up hobbies and focused on my family gave up hobbies and focused on my family gave up hobbies and focused on my family and the church, and I love it. I'm I'm and the church, and I love it. I'm I'm and the church, and I love it. I'm I'm very, very content. But without having very, very content. But without having very, very content. But without having all of that for 3 months, then Ruth was all of that for 3 months, then Ruth was all of that for 3 months, then Ruth was noticing a void in my life. About the noticing a void in my life. About the noticing a void in my life. About the same time, I'd been on the board of the same time, I'd been on the board of the same time, I'd been on the board of the Global Leadership Network for several Global Leadership Network for several Global Leadership Network for several years, and there was a leadership years, and there was a leadership years, and there was a leadership transition taking place. And so they transition taking place. And so they transition taking place. And so they invited me to come and be a part of invited me to come and be a part of invited me to come and be a part of that. And so it was it was great for me that. And so it was it was great for me that. And so it was it was great for me because I love because I love because I love leadership, I love working with pastors,

leadership, I love working with pastors, leadership, I love working with pastors, and so it was a real good fit for me. and so it was a real good fit for me. and so it was a real good fit for me. Yeah, and you know, there were there Yeah, and you know, there were there Yeah, and you know, there were there were challenges in front of the GLN as were challenges in front of the GLN as were challenges in front of the GLN as well when you took over the leadership. well when you took over the leadership. well when you took over the leadership. I mean, there's a big transition from I mean, there's a big transition from I mean, there's a big transition from Hybels and you know, Willow and all of Hybels and you know, Willow and all of Hybels and you know, Willow and all of that what, 7 years ago, 8 years ago now? that what, 7 years ago, 8 years ago now? that what, 7 years ago, 8 years ago now? >> 2018, so yeah. Yeah, 2018, and then >> 2018, so yeah. Yeah, 2018, and then >> 2018, so yeah. Yeah, 2018, and then Craig took over as sort of the face with Craig took over as sort of the face with Craig took over as sort of the face with the place, but there was a lot of the place, but there was a lot of the place, but there was a lot of a lot of things that had to be done a lot of things that had to be done a lot of things that had to be done behind the the scenes, and even the behind the the scenes, and even the behind the the scenes, and even the model model model was like 20 years old with satellite was like 20 years old with satellite was like 20 years old with satellite churches. And so, I'm interested to know churches. And so, I'm interested to know churches. And so, I'm interested to know what were some of the initial challenges what were some of the initial challenges what were some of the initial challenges that faced you when you took over that faced you when you took over that faced you when you took over leadership at the Global Leadership leadership at the Global Leadership leadership at the Global Leadership Network? So, there were two big things. Network? So, there were two big things. Network? So, there were two big things. You know, I'm not You know, I'm not You know, I'm not I'm not a young man, and so they weren't I'm not a young man, and so they weren't I'm not a young man, and so they weren't picking somebody that was going to come picking somebody that was going to come picking somebody that was going to come and lead them for the next 30 years. and lead them for the next 30 years. and lead them for the next 30 years. Um the two big challenges that I was Um the two big challenges that I was Um the two big challenges that I was asked to really tackle, one, we drifted asked to really tackle, one, we drifted asked to really tackle, one, we drifted missionally. And so, the Summit itself missionally. And so, the Summit itself missionally. And so, the Summit itself really started focused on pastors and really started focused on pastors and really started focused on pastors and helping pastors be better leaders. And helping pastors be better leaders. And helping pastors be better leaders. And Bill did such a great job of training Bill did such a great job of training Bill did such a great job of training pastors that then business people pastors that then business people pastors that then business people started coming and going, "This is great started coming and going, "This is great started coming and going, "This is great stuff." And so then it became a very stuff." And so then it became a very stuff." And so then it became a very broad tent as to who was coming, which broad tent as to who was coming, which broad tent as to who was coming, which is fantastic. But over the years, it had is fantastic. But over the years, it had is fantastic. But over the years, it had drifted from the focus being on pastors drifted from the focus being on pastors drifted from the focus being on pastors to almost being on business people. And to almost being on business people. And to almost being on business people. And almost to the point the last number of almost to the point the last number of almost to the point the last number of years where it was it was almost like years where it was it was almost like years where it was it was almost like there was hesitation to talk about there was hesitation to talk about there was hesitation to talk about Jesus. And so the board was saying, "If Jesus. And so the board was saying, "If Jesus. And so the board was saying, "If we're not talking about Jesus, if all we're not talking about Jesus, if all we're not talking about Jesus, if all we're doing is teaching leadership, why we're doing is teaching leadership, why we're doing is teaching leadership, why are we doing this? Um other people are are we doing this? Um other people are are we doing this? Um other people are doing it. We don't need to do it doing it. We don't need to do it doing it. We don't need to do it anymore." So, I was asked to bring us

anymore." So, I was asked to bring us anymore." So, I was asked to bring us back in line missionally and really back in line missionally and really back in line missionally and really bring back the focus on churches and bring back the focus on churches and bring back the focus on churches and pastors and leadership within churches. pastors and leadership within churches. pastors and leadership within churches. So, that was one. And then financially, So, that was one. And then financially, So, that was one. And then financially, we'd been struggling and we'd been we'd been struggling and we'd been we'd been struggling and we'd been losing money, and so it was to kind of losing money, and so it was to kind of losing money, and so it was to kind of right the ship financially were the two right the ship financially were the two right the ship financially were the two big challenges for me. big challenges for me. big challenges for me. And so we feel like it's been 2 and 1/2 And so we feel like it's been 2 and 1/2 And so we feel like it's been 2 and 1/2 years now. years now. years now. The last 2 years, we've righted the ship The last 2 years, we've righted the ship The last 2 years, we've righted the ship financially, and so that's been a real financially, and so that's been a real financially, and so that's been a real big thing for us. And missionally, we big thing for us. And missionally, we big thing for us. And missionally, we feel like we're back on track. We're feel like we're back on track. We're feel like we're back on track. We're focusing on pastors and churches again. focusing on pastors and churches again. focusing on pastors and churches again. And that's been a real And that's been a real And that's been a real good thing for the staff to understand good thing for the staff to understand good thing for the staff to understand fully who we're focusing on. And it fully who we're focusing on. And it fully who we're focusing on. And it doesn't mean we're not interested in the doesn't mean we're not interested in the doesn't mean we're not interested in the business person, but it's through the business person, but it's through the business person, but it's through the church that we impact business people, church that we impact business people, church that we impact business people, not trying to go to the businesses and not trying to go to the businesses and not trying to go to the businesses and impact them. So, impact them. So, impact them. So, Yeah, that's sort of like this podcast. Yeah, that's sort of like this podcast. Yeah, that's sort of like this podcast. I had a big aha moment 3 years ago where I had a big aha moment 3 years ago where I had a big aha moment 3 years ago where I kind of thought I was doing the split I kind of thought I was doing the split I kind of thought I was doing the split focus. And then I went through a summer focus. And then I went through a summer focus. And then I went through a summer of reorientation. I really felt like of reorientation. I really felt like of reorientation. I really felt like what I would call the second call on my what I would call the second call on my what I would call the second call on my life. The first was to go into life. The first was to go into life. The first was to go into congregational ministry as a pastor. The congregational ministry as a pastor. The congregational ministry as a pastor. The second was second was second was "This may cost you something, but you're "This may cost you something, but you're "This may cost you something, but you're going to focus on the church." Yeah.

going to focus on the church." Yeah. going to focus on the church." Yeah. >> And so for 3 and 1/2 years now, we've >> And so for 3 and 1/2 years now, we've >> And so for 3 and 1/2 years now, we've been drilling down on helping people been drilling down on helping people been drilling down on helping people reverse the decline in the church. And reverse the decline in the church. And reverse the decline in the church. And you know what? There's a lot of business you know what? There's a lot of business you know what? There's a lot of business people who listen, and maybe a few people who listen, and maybe a few people who listen, and maybe a few atheists, but for the most part, they're atheists, but for the most part, they're atheists, but for the most part, they're donors, they're board members, they're donors, they're board members, they're donors, they're board members, they're key volunteers, they're the people who key volunteers, they're the people who key volunteers, they're the people who have a day job, but really love the have a day job, but really love the have a day job, but really love the church. And uh it's been an absolute church. And uh it's been an absolute church. And uh it's been an absolute joy. Absolute joy to be able to see this joy. Absolute joy to be able to see this joy. Absolute joy to be able to see this this focus. That's good. One of the this focus. That's good. One of the this focus. That's good. One of the challenges though is like content is challenges though is like content is challenges though is like content is everywhere now. everywhere now. everywhere now. >> Yes. Like I remember there was a time, >> Yes. Like I remember there was a time, >> Yes. Like I remember there was a time, you know, the first time I heard Patrick you know, the first time I heard Patrick you know, the first time I heard Patrick Lencioni was at the Global Leadership Lencioni was at the Global Leadership Lencioni was at the Global Leadership Summit maybe 20 years ago. And those Summit maybe 20 years ago. And those Summit maybe 20 years ago. And those talks were so rare because you did not talks were so rare because you did not talks were so rare because you did not hear from people. And now, you know, you hear from people. And now, you know, you hear from people. And now, you know, you can get Pat on a lot of podcasts, on his can get Pat on a lot of podcasts, on his can get Pat on a lot of podcasts, on his own channel. Same with Andy, same with own channel. Same with Andy, same with own channel. Same with Andy, same with Craig. And I know Craig does a new talk Craig. And I know Craig does a new talk Craig. And I know Craig does a new talk every time. Right. every time. Right. every time. Right. >> What are you learning cuz I think this >> What are you learning cuz I think this >> What are you learning cuz I think this is not unique to the GL GLS, it's also is not unique to the GL GLS, it's also is not unique to the GL GLS, it's also churches. If your church isn't online, churches. If your church isn't online, churches. If your church isn't online, every other church is. Sermons are every other church is. Sermons are every other church is. Sermons are everywhere. What are you finding about everywhere. What are you finding about everywhere. What are you finding about the content experience and what people the content experience and what people the content experience and what people are wanting to get access to now? How's are wanting to get access to now? How's are wanting to get access to now? How's that changed if it's changed at all, that changed if it's changed at all, that changed if it's changed at all, David? Yeah, I think it definitely has.

David? Yeah, I think it definitely has. David? Yeah, I think it definitely has. And for us as specifically the Global And for us as specifically the Global And for us as specifically the Global Leadership Leadership Leadership Global Leadership Network, it has Global Leadership Network, it has Global Leadership Network, it has changed in a couple of ways. One, to changed in a couple of ways. One, to changed in a couple of ways. One, to your point, content is everywhere. And your point, content is everywhere. And your point, content is everywhere. And so, 30 years ago, we're 31 years old so, 30 years ago, we're 31 years old so, 30 years ago, we're 31 years old now. Um it wasn't. So, that's different. now. Um it wasn't. So, that's different. now. Um it wasn't. So, that's different. >> Um >> Um >> Um for 25 years, the Summit had Willow and for 25 years, the Summit had Willow and for 25 years, the Summit had Willow and it had Bill. And so, people would come it had Bill. And so, people would come it had Bill. And so, people would come because they wanted to hear Bill. People because they wanted to hear Bill. People because they wanted to hear Bill. People would come because they wanted to figure would come because they wanted to figure would come because they wanted to figure out the Willow model because it was out the Willow model because it was out the Willow model because it was thriving. thriving. thriving. That those are gone now. So, we lost That those are gone now. So, we lost That those are gone now. So, we lost those. those. those. Um what we still have though, Um what we still have though, Um what we still have though, in spite of even a leadership failure, in spite of even a leadership failure, in spite of even a leadership failure, is there is one, a trusted brand where is there is one, a trusted brand where is there is one, a trusted brand where people still trust the Summit that we're people still trust the Summit that we're people still trust the Summit that we're going to bring the best speakers to the going to bring the best speakers to the going to bring the best speakers to the table. Um there still is a desire, in table. Um there still is a desire, in table. Um there still is a desire, in spite of content being everywhere, it's spite of content being everywhere, it's spite of content being everywhere, it's kind of like church. kind of like church. kind of like church. What we discovered at church, and again, What we discovered at church, and again, What we discovered at church, and again, this is going to sound almost heretical this is going to sound almost heretical this is going to sound almost heretical to say this, you know, with COVID, to say this, you know, with COVID, to say this, you know, with COVID, Carrie, we spent 6 months saying, Carrie, we spent 6 months saying, Carrie, we spent 6 months saying, "Online is great. Online is great. It's "Online is great. Online is great. It's "Online is great. Online is great. It's just as good as church. Just as good as just as good as church. Just as good as just as good as church. Just as good as church. Watch online." while we were church. Watch online." while we were church. Watch online." while we were closed. And then when we opened our closed. And then when we opened our closed. And then when we opened our doors back, we're like, "Oh, wait a doors back, we're like, "Oh, wait a doors back, we're like, "Oh, wait a minute, it's not quite as good. You need minute, it's not quite as good. You need minute, it's not quite as good. You need to come back in the building." And and to come back in the building." And and to come back in the building." And and so now there's this dilemma where you so now there's this dilemma where you so now there's this dilemma where you don't want to talk negatively about don't want to talk negatively about don't want to talk negatively about church online because it is good, but if church online because it is good, but if church online because it is good, but if you compare it to the live, it's not you compare it to the live, it's not you compare it to the live, it's not quite there yet. I think most people quite there yet. I think most people quite there yet. I think most people would admit. And so we want people back would admit. And so we want people back would admit. And so we want people back in the buildings because there's in the buildings because there's in the buildings because there's something that you experience when something that you experience when something that you experience when you're together with a group of people you're together with a group of people you're together with a group of people focused on the same subject. And I can focused on the same subject. And I can focused on the same subject. And I can listen to Patrick Lencioni in my car, listen to Patrick Lencioni in my car, listen to Patrick Lencioni in my car, on headphones as I'm exercising. It's

on headphones as I'm exercising. It's on headphones as I'm exercising. It's different than when I'm sitting in a different than when I'm sitting in a different than when I'm sitting in a room of hundreds or thousands of other room of hundreds or thousands of other room of hundreds or thousands of other leaders. He's on the stage, and there's leaders. He's on the stage, and there's leaders. He's on the stage, and there's something about stepping aside from your something about stepping aside from your something about stepping aside from your normal schedule for 1 day or 2 days. normal schedule for 1 day or 2 days. normal schedule for 1 day or 2 days. There's something about being in a room There's something about being in a room There's something about being in a room full of other leaders. It's just a full of other leaders. It's just a full of other leaders. It's just a different dynamic. And different dynamic. And different dynamic. And I've heard for years people say, "Oh, I've heard for years people say, "Oh, I've heard for years people say, "Oh, people don't do big events anymore, and people don't do big events anymore, and people don't do big events anymore, and it's all going online." it's all going online." it's all going online." I don't think that's true. I mean, I don't think that's true. I mean, I don't think that's true. I mean, there's a reason why people still go to there's a reason why people still go to there's a reason why people still go to concerts. They can listen to concerts. They can listen to concerts. They can listen to every artist they want all day long in every artist they want all day long in every artist they want all day long in their car, at home, but they still pay their car, at home, but they still pay their car, at home, but they still pay big money to go to a concert because big money to go to a concert because big money to go to a concert because there's something about that experience there's something about that experience there's something about that experience and the relationship of being in the and the relationship of being in the and the relationship of being in the room. So, I don't think that's going to room. So, I don't think that's going to room. So, I don't think that's going to go away if it's done right. go away if it's done right. go away if it's done right. You also have tremendous convening You also have tremendous convening You also have tremendous convening power. I've been fortunate. I've done power. I've been fortunate. I've done power. I've been fortunate. I've done the international event in Chicago, but the international event in Chicago, but the international event in Chicago, but I also spoke at I also spoke at I also spoke at the GLS in Germany, which is a thing. the GLS in Germany, which is a thing. the GLS in Germany, which is a thing. And Germans do not exaggerate, unlike And Germans do not exaggerate, unlike And Germans do not exaggerate, unlike Americans. They said 7,000 people in the Americans. They said 7,000 people in the Americans. They said 7,000 people in the room. room. room. I'm pretty sure there were 7,001 maybe.

I'm pretty sure there were 7,001 maybe. I'm pretty sure there were 7,001 maybe. Like, oh my goodness. And it was a flat Like, oh my goodness. And it was a flat Like, oh my goodness. And it was a flat conference center. conference center. conference center. You know, it was like when you're at the You know, it was like when you're at the You know, it was like when you're at the back of the room, the person on stage back of the room, the person on stage back of the room, the person on stage was this big. Now, they had iMac and was this big. Now, they had iMac and was this big. Now, they had iMac and everything, but like the convening power everything, but like the convening power everything, but like the convening power of a brand like that. And we've also of a brand like that. And we've also of a brand like that. And we've also spoken across Australia and New Zealand. spoken across Australia and New Zealand. spoken across Australia and New Zealand. So, shout out to Jörg and to Phil and to So, shout out to Jörg and to Phil and to So, shout out to Jörg and to Phil and to Karen and all of you in the GLN globally Karen and all of you in the GLN globally Karen and all of you in the GLN globally and South Africa. and South Africa. and South Africa. Um I mean, there's tremendous convening Um I mean, there's tremendous convening Um I mean, there's tremendous convening power. The other thing I've noticed is power. The other thing I've noticed is power. The other thing I've noticed is cuz I've been there most years for the cuz I've been there most years for the cuz I've been there most years for the last 5 years, 6 years since Craig took last 5 years, 6 years since Craig took last 5 years, 6 years since Craig took over. over. over. Um and I've been there intermittently Um and I've been there intermittently Um and I've been there intermittently before that. before that. before that. Is it seems like the actual physical Is it seems like the actual physical Is it seems like the actual physical attendance in Chicago has gone back up attendance in Chicago has gone back up attendance in Chicago has gone back up again. Is that the case? Yeah, coming again. Is that the case? Yeah, coming again. Is that the case? Yeah, coming out of COVID, it was well, the first out of COVID, it was well, the first out of COVID, it was well, the first year it was all online during COVID. year it was all online during COVID. year it was all online during COVID. Then we opened partially back up. Now Then we opened partially back up. Now Then we opened partially back up. Now it's open fully, and so yes, the last it's open fully, and so yes, the last it's open fully, and so yes, the last several years it's been sold out with several years it's been sold out with several years it's been sold out with 7,000 plus people in the room, and 7,000 plus people in the room, and 7,000 plus people in the room, and there's just an energy and excitement of there's just an energy and excitement of there's just an energy and excitement of being there. being there. being there. And it's fantastic. I will say though, And it's fantastic. I will say though, And it's fantastic. I will say though, if it's done right at a at a location, if it's done right at a at a location, if it's done right at a at a location, so we've hosted the summit for 25 almost so we've hosted the summit for 25 almost so we've hosted the summit for 25 almost 25 years at LCBC, and we have about 25 years at LCBC, and we have about 25 years at LCBC, and we have about between two and 3,000 people each year between two and 3,000 people each year between two and 3,000 people each year attend the summit. And Ruth and I for attend the summit. And Ruth and I for attend the summit. And Ruth and I for years, even as I was on the board of the years, even as I was on the board of the years, even as I was on the board of the GLN, the hope was expectation was board GLN, the hope was expectation was board GLN, the hope was expectation was board members would come to Chicago, but we members would come to Chicago, but we members would come to Chicago, but we would just say, you know, we'd rather be would just say, you know, we'd rather be would just say, you know, we'd rather be here at LCBC. We feel like it's just as here at LCBC. We feel like it's just as here at LCBC. We feel like it's just as good here, because we know the people good here, because we know the people good here, because we know the people and we love experiencing it with our and we love experiencing it with our and we love experiencing it with our people. And so I think it could be a people. And so I think it could be a people. And so I think it could be a great experience even at other

great experience even at other great experience even at other locations, but it it is exciting to be locations, but it it is exciting to be locations, but it it is exciting to be in Chicago for it. in Chicago for it. in Chicago for it. So what advice would you have for So what advice would you have for So what advice would you have for you know, a lot of people hate this you know, a lot of people hate this you know, a lot of people hate this term, content creators, but people who term, content creators, but people who term, content creators, but people who provide messages, provide information, provide messages, provide information, provide messages, provide information, whether that's sermons or whether that's whether that's sermons or whether that's whether that's sermons or whether that's theological training, whether it's theological training, whether it's theological training, whether it's leadership training, that kind of thing. leadership training, that kind of thing. leadership training, that kind of thing. What advice do you have from them for What advice do you have from them for What advice do you have from them for them based on what you are learning them based on what you are learning them based on what you are learning at GLS and the Global Leadership at GLS and the Global Leadership at GLS and the Global Leadership Network, Global Leadership Summit, Network, Global Leadership Summit, Network, Global Leadership Summit, right? At both organizations, right? At both organizations, right? At both organizations, what are you learning about getting what are you learning about getting what are you learning about getting content heard in a sea of content? content heard in a sea of content? content heard in a sea of content? Well, when we pick speakers, we'll Well, when we pick speakers, we'll Well, when we pick speakers, we'll typically have about 15 speakers at the typically have about 15 speakers at the typically have about 15 speakers at the summit. It's two days, it's Thursday, summit. It's two days, it's Thursday, summit. It's two days, it's Thursday, Friday. And we pull from three different Friday. And we pull from three different Friday. And we pull from three different categories. We'll look at ministry categories. We'll look at ministry categories. We'll look at ministry leaders, typically pastors that are leaders, typically pastors that are leaders, typically pastors that are doing well. We'll look at business doing well. We'll look at business doing well. We'll look at business leaders or community leaders that are leaders or community leaders that are leaders or community leaders that are doing well. The third area that we've doing well. The third area that we've doing well. The third area that we've just opened up more recently, I would just opened up more recently, I would just opened up more recently, I would say even in the last six, seven, eight say even in the last six, seven, eight say even in the last six, seven, eight years, are content or thought leaders. years, are content or thought leaders. years, are content or thought leaders. And And And they were not necessarily welcome to the they were not necessarily welcome to the they were not necessarily welcome to the summit stage in the past, because it summit stage in the past, because it summit stage in the past, because it always been a real strong bias to we always been a real strong bias to we always been a real strong bias to we want people on the stage that truly have want people on the stage that truly have want people on the stage that truly have led. And and we still wrestle with that, led. And and we still wrestle with that, led. And and we still wrestle with that, we talk about that all the time. Have we talk about that all the time. Have we talk about that all the time. Have this has this person already led or not?

this has this person already led or not? this has this person already led or not? And the funny thing is, oftentimes our And the funny thing is, oftentimes our And the funny thing is, oftentimes our highest rated speakers are not the ones highest rated speakers are not the ones highest rated speakers are not the ones that have led. They're the best that have led. They're the best that have led. They're the best communicators and have great thoughts. communicators and have great thoughts. communicators and have great thoughts. And and so I wrestle with and go, "Ah, And and so I wrestle with and go, "Ah, And and so I wrestle with and go, "Ah, but they haven't led." And then we get but they haven't led." And then we get but they haven't led." And then we get somebody that's led and done great, but somebody that's led and done great, but somebody that's led and done great, but they've been so focused on leading and they've been so focused on leading and they've been so focused on leading and doing well, they're not always the best doing well, they're not always the best doing well, they're not always the best communicators, but they've got great communicators, but they've got great communicators, but they've got great content. So there's always this tension content. So there's always this tension content. So there's always this tension that's playing there. I think Carrie that's playing there. I think Carrie that's playing there. I think Carrie though, I mean you've got to have good though, I mean you've got to have good though, I mean you've got to have good content, you've got to be able to content, you've got to be able to content, you've got to be able to communicate. communicate. communicate. Um you've got to keep it somewhat Um you've got to keep it somewhat Um you've got to keep it somewhat Simple's not the right word. I I grew up Simple's not the right word. I I grew up Simple's not the right word. I I grew up under Howard Hendricks at Dallas under Howard Hendricks at Dallas under Howard Hendricks at Dallas Seminary, and he was constantly talking Seminary, and he was constantly talking Seminary, and he was constantly talking about KISS, keep it keep it simple, about KISS, keep it keep it simple, about KISS, keep it keep it simple, stupid. And he said that every every stupid. And he said that every every stupid. And he said that every every probably every class he went to, he probably every class he went to, he probably every class he went to, he would just say, "Keep it simple, would just say, "Keep it simple, would just say, "Keep it simple, stupid." And and um and so even as we're stupid." And and um and so even as we're stupid." And and um and so even as we're teaching content in a live environment teaching content in a live environment teaching content in a live environment that way, in a big setting, if you're that way, in a big setting, if you're that way, in a big setting, if you're doing a workshop, you're the only doing a workshop, you're the only doing a workshop, you're the only speaker, you can get as detailed as you speaker, you can get as detailed as you speaker, you can get as detailed as you want for four or five hours. But if want for four or five hours. But if want for four or five hours. But if you've got 30 minutes on the stage, you've got 30 minutes on the stage, you've got 30 minutes on the stage, you've got to keep it fairly simple and you've got to keep it fairly simple and you've got to keep it fairly simple and broad, or you've got to drill down just broad, or you've got to drill down just broad, or you've got to drill down just to one point and really nail that one to one point and really nail that one to one point and really nail that one point. You've got to show how it's point. You've got to show how it's point. You've got to show how it's applicable in your life and other applicable in your life and other applicable in your life and other people's lives. And so it's some of people's lives. And so it's some of people's lives. And so it's some of those kind of things um that make it those kind of things um that make it those kind of things um that make it different. The more personal you can different. The more personal you can different. The more personal you can make it and tell a story about yourself, make it and tell a story about yourself, make it and tell a story about yourself, then you feel like in the room you're then you feel like in the room you're then you feel like in the room you're kind of listening to to somebody tell a kind of listening to to somebody tell a kind of listening to to somebody tell a story, they go, "Oh, they probably story, they go, "Oh, they probably story, they go, "Oh, they probably wouldn't tell this anywhere else." Even wouldn't tell this anywhere else." Even wouldn't tell this anywhere else." Even though they've told it a thousand other though they've told it a thousand other though they've told it a thousand other times other places, but you still feel times other places, but you still feel times other places, but you still feel like you're getting inside information.

like you're getting inside information. like you're getting inside information. Mm. No, those are good tips. The Mm. No, those are good tips. The Mm. No, those are good tips. The financial turnaround, what was key to financial turnaround, what was key to financial turnaround, what was key to that? What what what really helped? Cuz that? What what what really helped? Cuz that? What what what really helped? Cuz sometimes, I mean there's a lot of sometimes, I mean there's a lot of sometimes, I mean there's a lot of leaders listening to this who are leaders listening to this who are leaders listening to this who are struggling with that. struggling with that. struggling with that. Well, it was two things. One, it was Well, it was two things. One, it was Well, it was two things. One, it was from a donor standpoint getting us back from a donor standpoint getting us back from a donor standpoint getting us back on track vision-wise, because on track vision-wise, because on track vision-wise, because there was almost a denial or an there was almost a denial or an there was almost a denial or an unwillingness to admit that we were unwillingness to admit that we were unwillingness to admit that we were struggling and an unwillingness to admit struggling and an unwillingness to admit struggling and an unwillingness to admit that we had drifted missionally. And so that we had drifted missionally. And so that we had drifted missionally. And so some of the leaders, both on staff and some of the leaders, both on staff and some of the leaders, both on staff and even on the board, would say, "Oh, we even on the board, would say, "Oh, we even on the board, would say, "Oh, we can't talk about the fact that we've can't talk about the fact that we've can't talk about the fact that we've drifted, because that's going to make us drifted, because that's going to make us drifted, because that's going to make us look bad." And it's like everybody look bad." And it's like everybody look bad." And it's like everybody knows. And when we had our first donor knows. And when we had our first donor knows. And when we had our first donor meeting, I stood up and said, "Look, meeting, I stood up and said, "Look, meeting, I stood up and said, "Look, here's where we've drifted, here's where here's where we've drifted, here's where here's where we've drifted, here's where we've been financially. It's not we've been financially. It's not we've been financially. It's not acceptable. We're sorry, but we're going acceptable. We're sorry, but we're going acceptable. We're sorry, but we're going to work to change this." And they didn't to work to change this." And they didn't to work to change this." And they didn't applaud, but it's almost like you could applaud, but it's almost like you could applaud, but it's almost like you could have felt an applaud in the room, have felt an applaud in the room, have felt an applaud in the room, because they know it, and either either because they know it, and either either because they know it, and either either they're stupid or we're stupid. If we they're stupid or we're stupid. If we they're stupid or we're stupid. If we don't go ahead and acknowledge it and don't go ahead and acknowledge it and don't go ahead and acknowledge it and talk about it, then they're the donors talk about it, then they're the donors talk about it, then they're the donors and business leaders are going to go, and business leaders are going to go, and business leaders are going to go, "Either they're so unaware of the fact "Either they're so unaware of the fact "Either they're so unaware of the fact that they've drifted missionally or that they've drifted missionally or that they've drifted missionally or they're so unaware of the fact that they're so unaware of the fact that they're so unaware of the fact that they're struggling financially, they're struggling financially, they're struggling financially, that man, we're not sure we want to give that man, we're not sure we want to give that man, we're not sure we want to give to them anyway." And so just being to them anyway." And so just being to them anyway." And so just being authentic and real, I think is huge, authentic and real, I think is huge, authentic and real, I think is huge, Carrie, in that matter.

Carrie, in that matter. Carrie, in that matter. Um so part of it was just talking about Um so part of it was just talking about Um so part of it was just talking about it. And then the other part for me, not it. And then the other part for me, not it. And then the other part for me, not as a as a as a leader in front of people, but as a leader in front of people, but as a leader in front of people, but as a leader of a organization or as a staff, leader of a organization or as a staff, leader of a organization or as a staff, is just to say no. And I think there's is just to say no. And I think there's is just to say no. And I think there's been a reluctance of saying no to the been a reluctance of saying no to the been a reluctance of saying no to the staff. And so I spent the first 12 staff. And so I spent the first 12 staff. And so I spent the first 12 months saying no, no, no. Um good idea, months saying no, no, no. Um good idea, months saying no, no, no. Um good idea, but no, we're not going to do that. And but no, we're not going to do that. And but no, we're not going to do that. And and I at one point I can remember an and I at one point I can remember an and I at one point I can remember an exact team meeting, and we were having exact team meeting, and we were having exact team meeting, and we were having to cut some things in order to make the to cut some things in order to make the to cut some things in order to make the budget, and I said, "You know what? You budget, and I said, "You know what? You budget, and I said, "You know what? You guys can get real mad at me on this." guys can get real mad at me on this." guys can get real mad at me on this." And we had good relationships, and we've And we had good relationships, and we've And we had good relationships, and we've got a great relationship now still. I got a great relationship now still. I got a great relationship now still. I said, "You guys can get real mad at me said, "You guys can get real mad at me said, "You guys can get real mad at me about saying no." I said, "I'm a whole about saying no." I said, "I'm a whole about saying no." I said, "I'm a whole lot more comfortable with you being mad lot more comfortable with you being mad lot more comfortable with you being mad at me than my having to sit before the at me than my having to sit before the at me than my having to sit before the board in another couple of months and board in another couple of months and board in another couple of months and say, "Oops, we missed it by say, "Oops, we missed it by say, "Oops, we missed it by many, many dollars." Um many, many dollars." Um many, many dollars." Um I would much rather face your wrath than I would much rather face your wrath than I would much rather face your wrath than their wrath. And so no. And so I think a their wrath. And so no. And so I think a their wrath. And so no. And so I think a lot of times leaders are hesitant to lot of times leaders are hesitant to lot of times leaders are hesitant to just say no, but it's man, the buck just say no, but it's man, the buck just say no, but it's man, the buck stops here. Somebody's got to say it.

stops here. Somebody's got to say it. stops here. Somebody's got to say it. And so I had to. And so I had to. And so I had to. When you look back at your time so far When you look back at your time so far When you look back at your time so far in leadership, LCBC training, Global in leadership, LCBC training, Global in leadership, LCBC training, Global Leadership Network, the pastor thing Leadership Network, the pastor thing Leadership Network, the pastor thing you're doing in in um in um you're doing in in um in um you're doing in in um in um Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, what's been most surprising to you? what's been most surprising to you? what's been most surprising to you? Mm. Mm. Mm. People are people. People are people. People are people. Um Um Um you know, people that when I started in you know, people that when I started in you know, people that when I started in 1991 1991 1991 that I would have idolized. And you that I would have idolized. And you that I would have idolized. And you know, we have this impression, and I know, we have this impression, and I know, we have this impression, and I would say even as LCBC's grown, Carrie, would say even as LCBC's grown, Carrie, would say even as LCBC's grown, Carrie, we would talk about this as a staff we would talk about this as a staff we would talk about this as a staff sometime. You'd look at other churches sometime. You'd look at other churches sometime. You'd look at other churches that were way ahead of you, big that were way ahead of you, big that were way ahead of you, big churches, and you think, "Man, they must churches, and you think, "Man, they must churches, and you think, "Man, they must be the most brilliant people in the be the most brilliant people in the be the most brilliant people in the world. And if we could only be as smart world. And if we could only be as smart world. And if we could only be as smart as them." And and they are smart people, as them." And and they are smart people, as them." And and they are smart people, and they're good people, and God is and they're good people, and God is and they're good people, and God is blessing them. blessing them. blessing them. But after a while you spend enough time But after a while you spend enough time But after a while you spend enough time with them, you realize, "You know, with them, you realize, "You know, with them, you realize, "You know, they're not that different than we are." they're not that different than we are." they're not that different than we are." And it doesn't mean that we're that And it doesn't mean that we're that And it doesn't mean that we're that great, it just means God is blessing us, great, it just means God is blessing us, great, it just means God is blessing us, and we haven't done anything stupid to and we haven't done anything stupid to and we haven't done anything stupid to break up what God is doing here.

break up what God is doing here. break up what God is doing here. And so man, let's And so man, let's And so man, let's let's just keep moving ahead. Let's keep let's just keep moving ahead. Let's keep let's just keep moving ahead. Let's keep making good decisions. One of our big making good decisions. One of our big making good decisions. One of our big things was focus on what's best, not things was focus on what's best, not things was focus on what's best, not what's good. And so part of saying no, what's good. And so part of saying no, what's good. And so part of saying no, not only financially, is saying no to a not only financially, is saying no to a not only financially, is saying no to a ton of good ideas. And you know, just in ton of good ideas. And you know, just in ton of good ideas. And you know, just in your involvement in the church and what your involvement in the church and what your involvement in the church and what you do, there's you do, there's you do, there's there's no shortage of good ideas. And there's no shortage of good ideas. And there's no shortage of good ideas. And um um um I just had to. And I feel like my last I just had to. And I feel like my last I just had to. And I feel like my last 10 years at LCBC were spent more time 10 years at LCBC were spent more time 10 years at LCBC were spent more time saying, "No, that's that's a good idea, saying, "No, that's that's a good idea, saying, "No, that's that's a good idea, but that's not the best idea for us. The but that's not the best idea for us. The but that's not the best idea for us. The best idea for us is whatever's going to best idea for us is whatever's going to best idea for us is whatever's going to help us introduce more people to Jesus, help us introduce more people to Jesus, help us introduce more people to Jesus, and this is going to be a distraction, and this is going to be a distraction, and this is going to be a distraction, so we're going to say no." And you have so we're going to say no." And you have so we're going to say no." And you have to get comfortable with people being mad to get comfortable with people being mad to get comfortable with people being mad at you for saying no to their pet at you for saying no to their pet at you for saying no to their pet project. But it's like, man, um no, project. But it's like, man, um no, project. But it's like, man, um no, we're not going to do that. So we're not going to do that. So we're not going to do that. So um I think realizing we're all people, um I think realizing we're all people, um I think realizing we're all people, we're all the same, that everybody has we're all the same, that everybody has we're all the same, that everybody has the same struggles. the same struggles. the same struggles. There are people that are way, way There are people that are way, way There are people that are way, way smarter than me. And so for me, my whole smarter than me. And so for me, my whole smarter than me. And so for me, my whole model was always the more I can bring model was always the more I can bring model was always the more I can bring people around me that are way smarter people around me that are way smarter people around me that are way smarter than me, than me, than me, my constant challenge, Carrie, to staff my constant challenge, Carrie, to staff my constant challenge, Carrie, to staff was if you come work at LCBC, was if you come work at LCBC, was if you come work at LCBC, uh I'm going to do everything I can to uh I'm going to do everything I can to uh I'm going to do everything I can to make you as successful as possible. And make you as successful as possible. And make you as successful as possible. And we early days we couldn't hire experts we early days we couldn't hire experts we early days we couldn't hire experts from outside. We had to take people that from outside. We had to take people that from outside. We had to take people that we hoped we could develop. And so we we hoped we could develop. And so we we hoped we could develop. And so we would go and we would look at different would go and we would look at different would go and we would look at different models in student ministry, let's say, models in student ministry, let's say, models in student ministry, let's say, and I'd take go take that person to two and I'd take go take that person to two and I'd take go take that person to two or three or four different churches. I'd or three or four different churches. I'd or three or four different churches. I'd say, "That's We'd figure out what we say, "That's We'd figure out what we say, "That's We'd figure out what we wanted." And then I'd say, "That's what wanted." And then I'd say, "That's what wanted." And then I'd say, "That's what I want, and I want you to get so good at I want, and I want you to get so good at I want, and I want you to get so good at this that people are going to come from this that people are going to come from this that people are going to come from all across the country to figure out how all across the country to figure out how all across the country to figure out how to do student ministry or worship and to do student ministry or worship and to do student ministry or worship and arts or whatever it was. Every staff

arts or whatever it was. Every staff arts or whatever it was. Every staff person we hired, and we've got 300 now, person we hired, and we've got 300 now, person we hired, and we've got 300 now, that was always the challenge to be so that was always the challenge to be so that was always the challenge to be so good that people are going to come and good that people are going to come and good that people are going to come and learn from you." And in part it was an learn from you." And in part it was an learn from you." And in part it was an acknowledgement on my part that and I'd acknowledgement on my part that and I'd acknowledgement on my part that and I'd say to them, "You're going to be way say to them, "You're going to be way say to them, "You're going to be way better than this than I ever could be." better than this than I ever could be." better than this than I ever could be." And I think sometimes as leaders and And I think sometimes as leaders and And I think sometimes as leaders and pastors we think we've got to be the pastors we think we've got to be the pastors we think we've got to be the smartest person in the room or we've got smartest person in the room or we've got smartest person in the room or we've got to be the best at. And if that's what we to be the best at. And if that's what we to be the best at. And if that's what we think, we're limiting our capacity to think, we're limiting our capacity to think, we're limiting our capacity to ever grow or move forward. And so for me ever grow or move forward. And so for me ever grow or move forward. And so for me it was I know my limitations, but I can it was I know my limitations, but I can it was I know my limitations, but I can do everything I can to lift other people do everything I can to lift other people do everything I can to lift other people up. And and let's do that. So. up. And and let's do that. So. up. And and let's do that. So. Even as a leader, you get asked a lot of Even as a leader, you get asked a lot of Even as a leader, you get asked a lot of questions. What's one question you questions. What's one question you questions. What's one question you rarely or never get asked that you wish rarely or never get asked that you wish rarely or never get asked that you wish someone would ask you? someone would ask you? someone would ask you? Mm. Mm. Mm. Probably that one. Um Probably that one. Um Probably that one. Um No, I I I it's unfair. I get to ask the No, I I I it's unfair. I get to ask the No, I I I it's unfair. I get to ask the questions. I've had that asked to me questions. I've had that asked to me questions. I've had that asked to me once or twice, and I'm like, "Darn, I once or twice, and I'm like, "Darn, I once or twice, and I'm like, "Darn, I don't know." don't know." don't know." Yeah. I don't know, you know, Yeah. I don't know, you know, Yeah. I don't know, you know, Honestly, Carrie, um and I would say Honestly, Carrie, um and I would say Honestly, Carrie, um and I would say this often times when I was teaching, um this often times when I was teaching, um this often times when I was teaching, um I know my dark sides. I I know the I know my dark sides. I I know the I know my dark sides. I I know the things that things that things that I struggle with.

I struggle with. I struggle with. Um Um Um and I'm not sure that I want all of and I'm not sure that I want all of and I'm not sure that I want all of those revealed to everybody else. Um so those revealed to everybody else. Um so those revealed to everybody else. Um so and yet I'm real willing to admit I've and yet I'm real willing to admit I've and yet I'm real willing to admit I've got flaws. And um got flaws. And um got flaws. And um and so and so and so and there's things that I and there's things that I and there's things that I you know, I go, "Man, I'm ashamed that I you know, I go, "Man, I'm ashamed that I you know, I go, "Man, I'm ashamed that I even think that way." Whether it's pride even think that way." Whether it's pride even think that way." Whether it's pride or or or >> selfishness and things like that. So I >> selfishness and things like that. So I >> selfishness and things like that. So I don't know, you know, somebody said don't know, you know, somebody said don't know, you know, somebody said years ago, back when years ago, back when years ago, back when putting iMac up on the screens was just putting iMac up on the screens was just putting iMac up on the screens was just getting popular, you know, how horrific getting popular, you know, how horrific getting popular, you know, how horrific it would be if what was going on in our it would be if what was going on in our it would be if what was going on in our heads could be projected onto the heads could be projected onto the heads could be projected onto the screens. And so that probably would be screens. And so that probably would be screens. And so that probably would be my answer to your question. I I don't my answer to your question. I I don't my answer to your question. I I don't know that I want everybody to know know that I want everybody to know know that I want everybody to know everything that goes on in my head. And everything that goes on in my head. And everything that goes on in my head. And so that's where I'm constantly so that's where I'm constantly so that's where I'm constantly confessing to God and saying, "God, I'm confessing to God and saying, "God, I'm confessing to God and saying, "God, I'm I'm so sorry. Um I can't believe I'm I'm so sorry. Um I can't believe I'm I'm so sorry. Um I can't believe I'm thinking this way." So. David, I did it thinking this way." So. David, I did it thinking this way." So. David, I did it again this morning. again this morning. again this morning. I mean, and and you know, that point I mean, and and you know, that point I mean, and and you know, that point about when you meet the people that you about when you meet the people that you about when you meet the people that you kind of idolize and your heroes. And I'm kind of idolize and your heroes. And I'm kind of idolize and your heroes. And I'm very, very fortunate to have met so many very, very fortunate to have met so many very, very fortunate to have met so many people that I've read or watched over people that I've read or watched over people that I've read or watched over the years or admired from afar, and the years or admired from afar, and the years or admired from afar, and they've some of them become friends. A they've some of them become friends. A they've some of them become friends. A lot of them lot of them lot of them I can talk to now. And I can talk to now. And I can talk to now. And >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. you know, probably one of my favorite you know, probably one of my favorite you know, probably one of my favorite things I remember the first time I don't things I remember the first time I don't things I remember the first time I don't want to drop names, but I got in a room want to drop names, but I got in a room want to drop names, but I got in a room with someone that I was like, "Oh, this with someone that I was like, "Oh, this with someone that I was like, "Oh, this guy knows everything." And I got to ask guy knows everything." And I got to ask guy knows everything." And I got to ask him a question, right? You get into that him a question, right? You get into that him a question, right? You get into that room. room. room. And I remember the first time he just And I remember the first time he just And I remember the first time he just went, "Yeah. went, "Yeah. went, "Yeah. I don't know." I don't know." I don't know." And I thought, And I thought, And I thought, "Oh." "Oh." "Oh." "Oh." "Oh." "Oh." Yeah. And then I thought, "But isn't Yeah. And then I thought, "But isn't Yeah. And then I thought, "But isn't that refreshing to know that he doesn't that refreshing to know that he doesn't that refreshing to know that he doesn't know?" Yeah. Cuz I don't know, and he know?" Yeah. Cuz I don't know, and he know?" Yeah. Cuz I don't know, and he doesn't know, and so, you know, when you doesn't know, and so, you know, when you doesn't know, and so, you know, when you really when you really see that, when really when you really see that, when really when you really see that, when you meet your heroes, and and they don't you meet your heroes, and and they don't you meet your heroes, and and they don't disappoint you. And I would say everyone disappoint you. And I would say everyone disappoint you. And I would say everyone says, "Don't meet your heroes." You says, "Don't meet your heroes." You says, "Don't meet your heroes." You know. Yeah. I've met a lot in the church know. Yeah. I've met a lot in the church know. Yeah. I've met a lot in the church and in the business world, and they for and in the business world, and they for and in the business world, and they for the most part have not disappointed. the most part have not disappointed. the most part have not disappointed. They are who you think they are. Yeah. They are who you think they are. Yeah. They are who you think they are. Yeah. As far as I can tell. As far as I can tell. As far as I can tell. Carey, we what I do in Pennsylvania, we Carey, we what I do in Pennsylvania, we Carey, we what I do in Pennsylvania, we call the advantage. And where that comes call the advantage. And where that comes call the advantage. And where that comes from is in the book of Acts, they from is in the book of Acts, they from is in the book of Acts, they describe Apollos. And I was reading the describe Apollos. And I was reading the describe Apollos. And I was reading the passage that describes Apollos, and it passage that describes Apollos, and it passage that describes Apollos, and it describes him in glowing terms. He was describes him in glowing terms. He was describes him in glowing terms. He was this great communicator, great debater this great communicator, great debater this great communicator, great debater of the faith, all these different of the faith, all these different of the faith, all these different descriptors. As I'm reading, I'm trying descriptors. As I'm reading, I'm trying descriptors. As I'm reading, I'm trying to think, "Man, am I anything like him?"

to think, "Man, am I anything like him?" to think, "Man, am I anything like him?" And the further I read, the more I And the further I read, the more I And the further I read, the more I thought, "I'm nothing like him." Um I thought, "I'm nothing like him." Um I thought, "I'm nothing like him." Um I don't communicate as well as I do. I don't communicate as well as I do. I don't communicate as well as I do. I wish I knew scriptures better. I've I wish I knew scriptures better. I've I wish I knew scriptures better. I've I mean, I've been to seminary, I've got a mean, I've been to seminary, I've got a mean, I've been to seminary, I've got a doctorate, but there I forget so much. doctorate, but there I forget so much. doctorate, but there I forget so much. And debater of the faith, I I tend to And debater of the faith, I I tend to And debater of the faith, I I tend to shrivel up when I'm when I'm challenged shrivel up when I'm when I'm challenged shrivel up when I'm when I'm challenged hard. And so, I'm I felt like I was none hard. And so, I'm I felt like I was none hard. And so, I'm I felt like I was none of those things, but there's one little of those things, but there's one little of those things, but there's one little descriptor of him where it just says he descriptor of him where it just says he descriptor of him where it just says he was a great benefit or advantage to was a great benefit or advantage to was a great benefit or advantage to every believer that he came in contact every believer that he came in contact every believer that he came in contact with. And as I read that descriptor, and with. And as I read that descriptor, and with. And as I read that descriptor, and I've read it hundreds of times Well, I I've read it hundreds of times Well, I I've read it hundreds of times Well, I don't know, dozens of times before for don't know, dozens of times before for don't know, dozens of times before for sure. sure. sure. It never caught my eye, but it caught my It never caught my eye, but it caught my It never caught my eye, but it caught my eye that particular time. And I just eye that particular time. And I just eye that particular time. And I just said, "God, that's what I want to be the said, "God, that's what I want to be the said, "God, that's what I want to be the rest of my life. I want to be a benefit rest of my life. I want to be a benefit rest of my life. I want to be a benefit or advantage." And specifically, I or advantage." And specifically, I or advantage." And specifically, I remember reading it then and saying, "I remember reading it then and saying, "I remember reading it then and saying, "I just want to be that to pastors for the just want to be that to pastors for the just want to be that to pastors for the rest of my life. Whatever you give me, I rest of my life. Whatever you give me, I rest of my life. Whatever you give me, I want to be a benefit or advantage to want to be a benefit or advantage to want to be a benefit or advantage to pastors." And and so, that's kind of pastors." And and so, that's kind of pastors." And and so, that's kind of where we took the name for the where we took the name for the where we took the name for the advantage. And for me, that's my goal. advantage. And for me, that's my goal. advantage. And for me, that's my goal. And even with the Global Leadership And even with the Global Leadership And even with the Global Leadership Network, it's like whatever I can do to Network, it's like whatever I can do to Network, it's like whatever I can do to help pastors be better. And I don't have help pastors be better. And I don't have help pastors be better. And I don't have all the answers. I don't know them, but all the answers. I don't know them, but all the answers. I don't know them, but man, I can come alongside and just man, I can come alongside and just man, I can come alongside and just encourage and be an advantage or a encourage and be an advantage or a encourage and be an advantage or a benefit. So, so, that's kind of been my benefit. So, so, that's kind of been my benefit. So, so, that's kind of been my that's I hope my life journey for the that's I hope my life journey for the that's I hope my life journey for the next number of years. Man, that's that's next number of years. Man, that's that's next number of years. Man, that's that's incredible. David, I've enjoyed this incredible. David, I've enjoyed this incredible. David, I've enjoyed this immensely. Thank you. So, uh immensely. Thank you. So, uh immensely. Thank you. So, uh tell me, if people want to find you tell me, if people want to find you tell me, if people want to find you online, they want to join the advantage, online, they want to join the advantage, online, they want to join the advantage, they want to attend the summit, they they want to attend the summit, they they want to attend the summit, they want to uh attend LCBC or or, you know, want to uh attend LCBC or or, you know, want to uh attend LCBC or or, you know, read your books, where's where's a good read your books, where's where's a good read your books, where's where's a good place where they can find all things place where they can find all things place where they can find all things David Ashcraft?

David Ashcraft? David Ashcraft? >> globalleadership.org >> globalleadership.org >> globalleadership.org is where you can find out about the is where you can find out about the is where you can find out about the Global Leadership Network. Um Global Leadership Network. Um Global Leadership Network. Um you can reach me at LCBC Church as well. you can reach me at LCBC Church as well. you can reach me at LCBC Church as well. It's just under lcbcchurch.com. It's just under lcbcchurch.com. It's just under lcbcchurch.com. Um so, yeah, any of those ways, that Um so, yeah, any of those ways, that Um so, yeah, any of those ways, that way. And love to talk to people and love way. And love to talk to people and love way. And love to talk to people and love to talk to pastors and hear their to talk to pastors and hear their to talk to pastors and hear their stories and what's going on. So, thank stories and what's going on. So, thank stories and what's going on. So, thank you. This has been fun for me as well. you. This has been fun for me as well. you. This has been fun for me as well. Well, I really appreciate it. Thanks, Well, I really appreciate it. Thanks, Well, I really appreciate it. Thanks, David. Yeah, thank you. I really enjoyed David. Yeah, thank you. I really enjoyed David. Yeah, thank you. I really enjoyed that conversation with David. Hey, we that conversation with David. Hey, we that conversation with David. Hey, we got show notes for you, if you're got show notes for you, if you're got show notes for you, if you're interested. You can get them at the Art interested. You can get them at the Art interested. You can get them at the Art of Leadership Academy. We have 15,000 of Leadership Academy. We have 15,000 of Leadership Academy. We have 15,000 leaders in the Art of Leadership leaders in the Art of Leadership leaders in the Art of Leadership Academy. You can go to the Academy. You can go to the Academy. You can go to the artofleadershipacademy.com artofleadershipacademy.com artofleadershipacademy.com or just click the link in the show or just click the link in the show or just click the link in the show notes, and it will take you or in the notes, and it will take you or in the notes, and it will take you or in the episode, I should say, it'll take you episode, I should say, it'll take you episode, I should say, it'll take you directly to the academy, where you can directly to the academy, where you can directly to the academy, where you can sign up for free and get the show notes. sign up for free and get the show notes. sign up for free and get the show notes. We got all the links to everything we We got all the links to everything we We got all the links to everything we talked about. I imagine you Pennsylvania talked about. I imagine you Pennsylvania talked about. I imagine you Pennsylvania pastors will be interested in finding pastors will be interested in finding pastors will be interested in finding out more about the advantage as well. out more about the advantage as well. out more about the advantage as well. So, next episode, we got a brand new So, next episode, we got a brand new So, next episode, we got a brand new year, and we've got my 2026 church year, and we've got my 2026 church year, and we've got my 2026 church trends. I am so excited to bring you um trends. I am so excited to bring you um trends. I am so excited to bring you um really seven church trends that I've really seven church trends that I've really seven church trends that I've identified. And uh we're going to go identified. And uh we're going to go identified. And uh we're going to go through them in the podcast. We're going through them in the podcast. We're going through them in the podcast. We're going to do a deep dive all month on the to do a deep dive all month on the to do a deep dive all month on the church trends. Going to have a number of church trends. Going to have a number of church trends. Going to have a number of different interviews, but I'll give you different interviews, but I'll give you different interviews, but I'll give you the recap, the overview. And then also, the recap, the overview. And then also, the recap, the overview. And then also, all things 2026 church trends church all things 2026 church trends church all things 2026 church trends church trends, I should say, are in the Art of trends, I should say, are in the Art of trends, I should say, are in the Art of Leadership Academy. We've set up a hub Leadership Academy. We've set up a hub Leadership Academy. We've set up a hub there. Um you can join. It's absolutely there. Um you can join. It's absolutely there. Um you can join. It's absolutely free. Go to 2026churchtrends.com free. Go to 2026churchtrends.com free. Go to 2026churchtrends.com for more. Thank you so much for for more. Thank you so much for for more. Thank you so much for watching. Thank you so much for

watching. Thank you so much for watching. Thank you so much for listening. And I hope our time together listening. And I hope our time together listening. And I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.