WIlliam Ury w/ Key Negotiation Skills When Firing Staff & Handling Angry Church Members

and what we tend to do in a negotiation and what we tend to do in a negotiation is we take a position in other words we is we take a position in other words we is we take a position in other words we take a concrete stance we sayi want it take a concrete stance we sayi want it take a concrete stance we sayi want it for that amount of money I want that for that amount of money I want that for that amount of money I want that office with the corner view I want this office with the corner view I want this office with the corner view I want this concrete thing for my church or whatever concrete thing for my church or whatever concrete thing for my church or whatever it is it's very concrete positions are it is it's very concrete positions are it is it's very concrete positions are the concrete things we say we want the concrete things we say we want the concrete things we say we want interests are the underlying interests are the underlying interests are the underlying motivations interests are the underlying motivations interests are the underlying motivations interests are the underlying needs or desires or aspir ations or needs or desires or aspir ations or needs or desires or aspir ations or fears or concerns that people have that fears or concerns that people have that fears or concerns that people have that drive us the drivers that drive us to drive us the drivers that drive us to drive us the drivers that drive us to take a certain position and in take a certain position and in take a certain position and in negotiation we tend to you know like negotiation we tend to you know like negotiation we tend to you know like okay we want the Sinai back you know okay we want the Sinai back you know okay we want the Sinai back you know that's a position we're gonna keep the that's a position we're gonna keep the that's a position we're gonna keep the Sinai you know that's a position and you Sinai you know that's a position and you Sinai you know that's a position and you can just you can just bump heads you can just you can just bump heads you can just you can just bump heads you pressure the other side to accept your pressure the other side to accept your pressure the other side to accept your position then the more you push the more position then the more you push the more position then the more you push the more they push back you get nowhere or or you they push back you get nowhere or or you they push back you get nowhere or or you or you kind of give up your position and or you kind of give up your position and or you kind of give up your position and no one likes to give in no one likes to give in no one likes to give in but actually if you ask the magical but actually if you ask the magical but actually if you ask the magical question why why is it you want that you question why why is it you want that you question why why is it you want that you know why do you want the sign it well know why do you want the sign it well know why do you want the sign it well security I need to be safe you know security I need to be safe you know security I need to be safe you know tanks have roll across why do you want tanks have roll across why do you want tanks have roll across why do you want to keep it well sovereignty you know to keep it well sovereignty you know to keep it well sovereignty you know it's been since I then suddenly you're it's been since I then suddenly you're it's been since I then suddenly you're at a level where it's different and then at a level where it's different and then at a level where it's different and then you can ask the question well how do we you can ask the question well how do we you can ask the question well how do we meet your interests and meet M welcome meet your interests and meet M welcome meet your interests and meet M welcome to the car newoff leadership podcast on to the car newoff leadership podcast on to the car newoff leadership podcast on YouTube hey I'm so glad you joined us if YouTube hey I'm so glad you joined us if YouTube hey I'm so glad you joined us if you're new here subscribe most of you you're new here subscribe most of you you're new here subscribe most of you who are watching this video have not

who are watching this video have not who are watching this video have not subscribed and if you subscribe you will subscribed and if you subscribe you will subscribed and if you subscribe you will not miss leaders like today's William not miss leaders like today's William not miss leaders like today's William Yuri he's one of the top negotiators on Yuri he's one of the top negotiators on Yuri he's one of the top negotiators on the planet and he's negotiated the planet and he's negotiated the planet and he's negotiated everything from peace in the Middle East everything from peace in the Middle East everything from peace in the Middle East to nuclear disarmament to working with to nuclear disarmament to working with to nuclear disarmament to working with Donald Trump and a whole lot of other Donald Trump and a whole lot of other Donald Trump and a whole lot of other presidents to try to deescalate conflict presidents to try to deescalate conflict presidents to try to deescalate conflict plus we're going to get into your plus we're going to get into your plus we're going to get into your mailbag and talk about how do you fire mailbag and talk about how do you fire mailbag and talk about how do you fire an underperforming church member or an underperforming church member or an underperforming church member or staff member and what do you do with staff member and what do you do with staff member and what do you do with angry people all right today's episode angry people all right today's episode angry people all right today's episode is brought to you by Glue you know our is brought to you by Glue you know our is brought to you by Glue you know our friends at glue are offering your church friends at glue are offering your church friends at glue are offering your church free unlimited texting for up to three free unlimited texting for up to three free unlimited texting for up to three groups so it's a wonderful opportunity groups so it's a wonderful opportunity groups so it's a wonderful opportunity to enhance your Church's communication to enhance your Church's communication to enhance your Church's communication strategy you can go to glue. usfree strategy you can go to glue. usfree strategy you can go to glue. usfree texting to get more and then subsplash texting to get more and then subsplash texting to get more and then subsplash says you know what we are in the says you know what we are in the says you know what we are in the attention economy and out of 168 hours attention economy and out of 168 hours attention economy and out of 168 hours in a week how many hours does your in a week how many hours does your in a week how many hours does your church actually have the full attention church actually have the full attention church actually have the full attention of your people that's where subsplash of your people that's where subsplash of your people that's where subsplash comes in today you can join 177,000 comes in today you can join 177,000 comes in today you can join 177,000 other churches who partner with other churches who partner with other churches who partner with subsplash to go beyond Sunday and make subsplash to go beyond Sunday and make subsplash to go beyond Sunday and make disciples you can go to subsplash docomo to have you on the podcast docomo to have you on the podcast welcome oh it's a huge pleasure Carrie welcome oh it's a huge pleasure Carrie welcome oh it's a huge pleasure Carrie yeah yeah so um I got introduced to your yeah yeah so um I got introduced to your yeah yeah so um I got introduced to your work back in the late 8 0 or early '90s work back in the late 8 0 or early '90s work back in the late 8 0 or early '90s in law school where getting to yes was

in law school where getting to yes was in law school where getting to yes was already a standard textbook I think already a standard textbook I think already a standard textbook I think across every law school and certainly at across every law school and certainly at across every law school and certainly at ours and I'd love to start at the ours and I'd love to start at the ours and I'd love to start at the beginning of your University career we beginning of your University career we beginning of your University career we got a lot of young listeners uh young got a lot of young listeners uh young got a lot of young listeners uh young leaders listening and uh it's a rare leaders listening and uh it's a rare leaders listening and uh it's a rare case of a university paper you wrote case of a university paper you wrote case of a university paper you wrote actually having utility in the real actually having utility in the real actually having utility in the real world is that true I mean I don't think world is that true I mean I don't think world is that true I mean I don't think my papers made a hint of difference uh my papers made a hint of difference uh my papers made a hint of difference uh for that I wrote for all those years for that I wrote for all those years for that I wrote for all those years yeah that was my lucky shot Gary was uh yeah that was my lucky shot Gary was uh yeah that was my lucky shot Gary was uh I was 23 I was a graduate student in I was 23 I was a graduate student in I was 23 I was a graduate student in Social anthropology at Harvard and uh Social anthropology at Harvard and uh Social anthropology at Harvard and uh and I was it was one cold January night and I was it was one cold January night and I was it was one cold January night I had a little rental room on the third I had a little rental room on the third I had a little rental room on the third floor of one of those triple Deckers in floor of one of those triple Deckers in floor of one of those triple Deckers in Cambridge uh and I was grading my own Cambridge uh and I was grading my own Cambridge uh and I was grading my own students exams and I Was preparing for students exams and I Was preparing for students exams and I Was preparing for my own exams and suddenly 10 o'clock at my own exams and suddenly 10 o'clock at my own exams and suddenly 10 o'clock at night I got a call and in those days you night I got a call and in those days you night I got a call and in those days you never got a call from a professor but never got a call from a professor but never got a call from a professor but this was at 10:00 at night said this is this was at 10:00 at night said this is this was at 10:00 at night said this is Professor Roger fiser and uh I've just Professor Roger fiser and uh I've just Professor Roger fiser and uh I've just read your paper about taking an read your paper about taking an read your paper about taking an anthropological anthropological anthropological view of the Middle East peace view of the Middle East peace view of the Middle East peace negotiations and I really liked it so I negotiations and I really liked it so I negotiations and I really liked it so I sent the central chart in it to the sent the central chart in it to the sent the central chart in it to the assistant Secretary of State for the assistant Secretary of State for the assistant Secretary of State for the Middle East because he's working on Middle East because he's working on Middle East because he's working on peace negotiations and I thought he peace negotiations and I thought he peace negotiations and I thought he might find it interesting might find it interesting might find it interesting interesting and uh and would you come interesting and uh and would you come interesting and uh and would you come work with me and and and I was just

work with me and and and I was just work with me and and and I was just speechless I was like floored I didn't speechless I was like floored I didn't speechless I was like floored I didn't know what to say and so uh you know I know what to say and so uh you know I know what to say and so uh you know I took a moment to get recovered I took a moment to get recovered I took a moment to get recovered I stammered out a yes but you know it stammered out a yes but you know it stammered out a yes but you know it never occurred to me in my wildest never occurred to me in my wildest never occurred to me in my wildest dreams that an idea that I'd come up dreams that an idea that I'd come up dreams that an idea that I'd come up with for my paper you know my little with for my paper you know my little with for my paper you know my little attic room there with with the EES under attic room there with with the EES under attic room there with with the EES under the eaves that uh that could be of the eaves that uh that could be of the eaves that uh that could be of actually practical use to a practitioner actually practical use to a practitioner actually practical use to a practitioner working on what was widely perceived working on what was widely perceived working on what was widely perceived even then as you know the world's most even then as you know the world's most even then as you know the world's most difficult challenging conflict so so difficult challenging conflict so so difficult challenging conflict so so just to date this this is the 70s right just to date this this is the 70s right just to date this this is the 70s right this is the 70s this was this is the 70s this was this is the 70s this was 1977 January 1977 peace in the Middle 1977 January 1977 peace in the Middle 1977 January 1977 peace in the Middle East was a huge issue then as it East was a huge issue then as it East was a huge issue then as it unfortunately is now again and um so unfortunately is now again and um so unfortunately is now again and um so 1977 was that around the time of the the 1977 was that around the time of the the 1977 was that around the time of the the Camp David Accord under President Carter Camp David Accord under President Carter Camp David Accord under President Carter it was it was about a year and a half it was it was about a year and a half it was it was about a year and a half before that and that was amazing because before that and that was amazing because before that and that was amazing because you know I just gotten back from the you know I just gotten back from the you know I just gotten back from the Middle East uh as a student of Middle East uh as a student of Middle East uh as a student of international conflict you know that's international conflict you know that's international conflict you know that's the place you go I was in Jerusalem I the place you go I was in Jerusalem I the place you go I was in Jerusalem I was working on you know the issue of the was working on you know the issue of the was working on you know the issue of the holy places in Jerusalem and writing a holy places in Jerusalem and writing a holy places in Jerusalem and writing a paper about that too and and at that paper about that too and and at that paper about that too and and at that point and uh and it looked like it looks point and uh and it looked like it looks point and uh and it looked like it looks today there just been a a surprise today there just been a a surprise today there just been a a surprise attack in 73 on the holiest day in the attack in 73 on the holiest day in the attack in 73 on the holiest day in the Jewish calendar Kor surprise attack by Jewish calendar Kor surprise attack by Jewish calendar Kor surprise attack by Egypt there had been four wars in the Egypt there had been four wars in the Egypt there had been four wars in the previous 25 years and everyone expected previous 25 years and everyone expected previous 25 years and everyone expected there to be a fifth and President Carter

there to be a fifth and President Carter there to be a fifth and President Carter to his to his to his credit had this belief and it was partly credit had this belief and it was partly credit had this belief and it was partly it was grounded in his Christian faith it was grounded in his Christian faith it was grounded in his Christian faith yeah you know that you could find a way yeah you know that you could find a way yeah you know that you could find a way to bring these sworn adversaries to bring these sworn adversaries to bring these sworn adversaries together and he did that at Camp David together and he did that at Camp David together and he did that at Camp David uh and that and I actually had a little uh and that and I actually had a little uh and that and I actually had a little bit roll in that which I talk about my bit roll in that which I talk about my bit roll in that which I talk about my book but it was like that was like Wow book but it was like that was like Wow book but it was like that was like Wow uh that's a possibility you can take uh that's a possibility you can take uh that's a possibility you can take sworn enemies who look like they're sworn enemies who look like they're sworn enemies who look like they're going to go to war and sometimes you can going to go to war and sometimes you can going to go to war and sometimes you can get an unexpected peace Accord of get an unexpected peace Accord of get an unexpected peace Accord of it yeah that was that was historic I'm it yeah that was that was historic I'm it yeah that was that was historic I'm just old enough I was born I think a just old enough I was born I think a just old enough I was born I think a decade after you decade after you decade after you 1965 and so I have memories of of seeing 1965 and so I have memories of of seeing 1965 and so I have memories of of seeing that in the news knowing that it was that in the news knowing that it was that in the news knowing that it was historic you know not really as a historic you know not really as a historic you know not really as a 12-year-old having 13-year-old having 12-year-old having 13-year-old having 12-year-old having 13-year-old having any idea how far back those hostilities any idea how far back those hostilities any idea how far back those hostilities went but it was every bit or perhaps went but it was every bit or perhaps went but it was every bit or perhaps more miraculous than what you see today more miraculous than what you see today more miraculous than what you see today if there was to be a piece oford in the if there was to be a piece oford in the if there was to be a piece oford in the Middle East it was it was that intract Middle East it was it was that intract Middle East it was it was that intract tractable what was what was the idea in tractable what was what was the idea in tractable what was what was the idea in your paper that caught his attention you your paper that caught his attention you your paper that caught his attention you know the idea in my paper was pretty know the idea in my paper was pretty know the idea in my paper was pretty simple I can't even say it was like oh simple I can't even say it was like oh simple I can't even say it was like oh wow that's a real no I just I did a wow that's a real no I just I did a wow that's a real no I just I did a thought experiment I like to do thought thought experiment I like to do thought thought experiment I like to do thought experiments you know I did a thought experiments you know I did a thought experiments you know I did a thought experiment I said what if I were a fly experiment I said what if I were a fly experiment I said what if I were a fly in the wall an anthropological fly in in the wall an anthropological fly in in the wall an anthropological fly in the wall in a middle Peace Middle East the wall in a middle Peace Middle East the wall in a middle Peace Middle East peace negotiation there supposed to take

peace negotiation there supposed to take peace negotiation there supposed to take place then in Geneva what would I see place then in Geneva what would I see place then in Geneva what would I see what would I hear how would I know if what would I hear how would I know if what would I hear how would I know if the negotiations were going well or the negotiations were going well or the negotiations were going well or going poorly and as I thought about it going poorly and as I thought about it going poorly and as I thought about it from my perspective as a fly in the wall from my perspective as a fly in the wall from my perspective as a fly in the wall I thought well things are going poorly I thought well things are going poorly I thought well things are going poorly people are going to be stuck in the people are going to be stuck in the people are going to be stuck in the blame game they're going to be vilifying blame game they're going to be vilifying blame game they're going to be vilifying their opponent their opponent their opponent they're going to be demeaning their they're going to be demeaning their they're going to be demeaning their opponents they're going to be talking opponents they're going to be talking opponents they're going to be talking they're going to be admired in the past they're going to be admired in the past they're going to be admired in the past if things are going well people will be if things are going well people will be if things are going well people will be talking about each other with a little talking about each other with a little talking about each other with a little bit of respect they'll be they'll be bit of respect they'll be they'll be bit of respect they'll be they'll be focused on the future on on concretely focused on the future on on concretely focused on the future on on concretely what can we do tomorrow morning that what can we do tomorrow morning that what can we do tomorrow morning that could actually you know start a path out could actually you know start a path out could actually you know start a path out of this mess uh so it was you know shift of this mess uh so it was you know shift of this mess uh so it was you know shift from the focus on the past to the Future from the focus on the past to the Future from the focus on the past to the Future from the blame game to what we can do from the blame game to what we can do from the blame game to what we can do about it h and that was about it h and that was about it h and that was revolutionary I don't know it didn't revolutionary I don't know it didn't revolutionary I don't know it didn't seem like it was revolutionary I know it seem like it was revolutionary I know it seem like it was revolutionary I know it doesn't seem like it's revolutionary but doesn't seem like it's revolutionary but doesn't seem like it's revolutionary but it is actually because if you think it is actually because if you think it is actually because if you think about it a lot of this is common sense about it a lot of this is common sense about it a lot of this is common sense but I would call it Gary I would call it but I would call it Gary I would call it but I would call it Gary I would call it Uncommon Sense in the common sense Uncommon Sense in the common sense Uncommon Sense in the common sense that's uncommonly practiced but how that's uncommonly practiced but how that's uncommonly practiced but how often look around today how often do are often look around today how often do are often look around today how often do are we get just we're back in the same trap we get just we're back in the same trap we get just we're back in the same trap the blame game they're at fault they're the blame game they're at fault they're the blame game they're at fault they're at fault where's self-responsibility at fault where's self-responsibility at fault where's self-responsibility where is where is the spirit of where is where is the spirit of where is where is the spirit of okay what can we do about this what can okay what can we do about this what can okay what can we do about this what can we actually practically do uh how can we we actually practically do uh how can we we actually practically do uh how can we make the world a better world for our make the world a better world for our make the world a better world for our children our grandchildren everything

children our grandchildren everything children our grandchildren everything that we care that we care that we care about yeah it's it's a very good point about yeah it's it's a very good point about yeah it's it's a very good point and you know I wanted to talk about this and you know I wanted to talk about this and you know I wanted to talk about this at some point this might be as good a at some point this might be as good a at some point this might be as good a point as any but we do and we live in point as any but we do and we live in point as any but we do and we live in this we've seen this over the last this we've seen this over the last this we've seen this over the last decade really escalate we vilify our decade really escalate we vilify our decade really escalate we vilify our opponents Everything Is Us Versus Them opponents Everything Is Us Versus Them opponents Everything Is Us Versus Them right so I don't like I don't like the right so I don't like I don't like the right so I don't like I don't like the way they think I don't like the way they way they think I don't like the way they way they think I don't like the way they vote I don't like the way um you know vote I don't like the way um you know vote I don't like the way um you know whatever they do I just don't like them whatever they do I just don't like them whatever they do I just don't like them and they become a them and we turn them and they become a them and we turn them and they become a them and we turn them into a into a into a caricature what is caricature what is caricature what is it why is that such a common tendency it why is that such a common tendency it why is that such a common tendency and then um what are some keys to and then um what are some keys to and then um what are some keys to starting to break that starting to break that starting to break that down well you know Carrie I've noticed down well you know Carrie I've noticed down well you know Carrie I've noticed that conflict can sometimes bring out that conflict can sometimes bring out that conflict can sometimes bring out the worst in US but I've also seen you the worst in US but I've also seen you the worst in US but I've also seen you know Camp David being an example how it know Camp David being an example how it know Camp David being an example how it sometimes can bring out the best in us sometimes can bring out the best in us sometimes can bring out the best in us that actually you know there is this that actually you know there is this that actually you know there is this potential in us and we have a choice potential in us and we have a choice potential in us and we have a choice that's the key thing we have agency here that's the key thing we have agency here that's the key thing we have agency here we have a choice we can get admired in we have a choice we can get admired in we have a choice we can get admired in the blame game which is you know age old the blame game which is you know age old the blame game which is you know age old uh we all know it you know and there's uh we all know it you know and there's uh we all know it you know and there's the old saying is you you point a finger the old saying is you you point a finger the old saying is you you point a finger you got three fingers pointing back at you got three fingers pointing back at you got three fingers pointing back at you and and it's so easy you and and it's so easy you and and it's so easy to to ignore you know going back to I to to ignore you know going back to I to to ignore you know going back to I think maybe it's in the Bible here think maybe it's in the Bible here think maybe it's in the Bible here ignore the moat in your eye and see the ignore the moat in your eye and see the ignore the moat in your eye and see the you know see see you know see the other you know see see you know see the other you know see see you know see the other and you know that's a Jesus teaching and you know that's a Jesus teaching and you know that's a Jesus teaching totally right Jesus exactly so it's like

totally right Jesus exactly so it's like totally right Jesus exactly so it's like just if we could just take those some of just if we could just take those some of just if we could just take those some of those ancient teachings which are those ancient teachings which are those ancient teachings which are Eternal and Universal and apply them to Eternal and Universal and apply them to Eternal and Universal and apply them to the immediate situations facing us you the immediate situations facing us you the immediate situations facing us you know where's where's turn the other know where's where's turn the other know where's where's turn the other cheek where's where's um forbearance cheek where's where's um forbearance cheek where's where's um forbearance where's you know that wisdom and so I where's you know that wisdom and so I where's you know that wisdom and so I find actually in in in negotiation I find actually in in in negotiation I find actually in in in negotiation I mean this is this is an age-old human mean this is this is an age-old human mean this is this is an age-old human activity this this problem how do we activity this this problem how do we activity this this problem how do we deal with our differences I mean that deal with our differences I mean that deal with our differences I mean that that was the pro that's the that's been that was the pro that's the that's been that was the pro that's the that's been my lifelong question you know that's why my lifelong question you know that's why my lifelong question you know that's why I said yes to Roger fiser was I said yes to Roger fiser was I said yes to Roger fiser was because even as a boy you know as because even as a boy you know as because even as a boy you know as interesting I I when I was five I my interesting I I when I was five I my interesting I I when I was five I my family moved to Europe for a year and it family moved to Europe for a year and it family moved to Europe for a year and it was was was 1959 you could still 1959 you could still 1959 you could still feel um the waves of of trauma of World feel um the waves of of trauma of World feel um the waves of of trauma of World War II World War I even a kid you felt War II World War I even a kid you felt War II World War I even a kid you felt even as a kid oh yeah I mean among the even as a kid oh yeah I mean among the even as a kid oh yeah I mean among the students and you could see ruins you students and you could see ruins you students and you could see ruins you know in France and Germany and England know in France and Germany and England know in France and Germany and England and whatever you could see you could and whatever you could see you could and whatever you could see you could still see the ruins and there was every still see the ruins and there was every still see the ruins and there was every expectation that there would be a third expectation that there would be a third expectation that there would be a third World War I mean our school in World War I mean our school in World War I mean our school in Switzerland had a had a nuclear a bomb Switzerland had a had a nuclear a bomb Switzerland had a had a nuclear a bomb shelter it with a big steel blast door shelter it with a big steel blast door shelter it with a big steel blast door so you know it's like wow is this the so you know it's like wow is this the so you know it's like wow is this the best Humanity can do can't we do better best Humanity can do can't we do better best Humanity can do can't we do better in dealing with our differences than in dealing with our differences than in dealing with our differences than blowing everything that we hold precious blowing everything that we hold precious blowing everything that we hold precious to to to smithin you know that's so funny I've

smithin you know that's so funny I've smithin you know that's so funny I've spent quite a bit of time in Europe and spent quite a bit of time in Europe and spent quite a bit of time in Europe and was there just a few months ago by the was there just a few months ago by the was there just a few months ago by the time this airs and one of my earliest time this airs and one of my earliest time this airs and one of my earliest memories of Europe I went when I was 12 memories of Europe I went when I was 12 memories of Europe I went when I was 12 cuz my grandfather was dying and we went cuz my grandfather was dying and we went cuz my grandfather was dying and we went to my ancestral Hometown where my father to my ancestral Hometown where my father to my ancestral Hometown where my father grew up to meet my grandfather and I grew up to meet my grandfather and I grew up to meet my grandfather and I remember wanting to go across the street remember wanting to go across the street remember wanting to go across the street to play in this big open field and I had to play in this big open field and I had to play in this big open field and I had an uncle who said no no no you can't go an uncle who said no no no you can't go an uncle who said no no no you can't go there the this is 1977 there are still there the this is 1977 there are still there the this is 1977 there are still shells there from the second world war shells there from the second world war shells there from the second world war from the Nazis that haven't exploded and from the Nazis that haven't exploded and from the Nazis that haven't exploded and as a Canadian North American kid you as a Canadian North American kid you as a Canadian North American kid you just don't have a category for that just don't have a category for that just don't have a category for that right but the memory the memory of of right but the memory the memory of of right but the memory the memory of of that kind of conflict is is deep in that kind of conflict is is deep in that kind of conflict is is deep in people um when you you studied people um when you you studied people um when you you studied anthropology so so tell me why you anthropology so so tell me why you anthropology so so tell me why you picked anthropology and how that came in picked anthropology and how that came in picked anthropology and how that came in handy um when you built a whole career handy um when you built a whole career handy um when you built a whole career on on on negotiation well yeah even as a boy I negotiation well yeah even as a boy I negotiation well yeah even as a boy I had this question of how do we deal with had this question of how do we deal with had this question of how do we deal with our differences there must be a better our differences there must be a better our differences there must be a better way and I thought okay anthropology is way and I thought okay anthropology is way and I thought okay anthropology is about human beings trying to understand about human beings trying to understand about human beings trying to understand us you know who we are where we came us you know who we are where we came us you know who we are where we came from what we're here for how how do we from what we're here for how how do we from what we're here for how how do we interact with each other and so interact with each other and so interact with each other and so anthropology is also just an excuse to anthropology is also just an excuse to anthropology is also just an excuse to be curious be curious be curious which is I think critical in all of this which is I think critical in all of this which is I think critical in all of this uh it's a excuse to it's also the the uh it's a excuse to it's also the the uh it's a excuse to it's also the the premise of anthropology is can we put premise of anthropology is can we put premise of anthropology is can we put ourselves in the shoes of another can we ourselves in the shoes of another can we ourselves in the shoes of another can we put ourselves can we put ourselves in

put ourselves can we put ourselves in put ourselves can we put ourselves in another culture's shoes society and not another culture's shoes society and not another culture's shoes society and not just judge them but actually understand just judge them but actually understand just judge them but actually understand them from the inside and actually the them from the inside and actually the them from the inside and actually the essential practice of anthropology is essential practice of anthropology is essential practice of anthropology is what's called participant observation what's called participant observation what's called participant observation it's the ability to participate in it's the ability to participate in it's the ability to participate in another culture and observe it at the another culture and observe it at the another culture and observe it at the same time without judging just observe same time without judging just observe same time without judging just observe and participate and that's that's the and participate and that's that's the and participate and that's that's the essential competence that we need today essential competence that we need today essential competence that we need today as Leaders as negotiators is the ability as Leaders as negotiators is the ability as Leaders as negotiators is the ability to put ourselves in the shoes of our to put ourselves in the shoes of our to put ourselves in the shoes of our flock or put our shoes in the shoes of flock or put our shoes in the shoes of flock or put our shoes in the shoes of our others of our opponents or whatever our others of our opponents or whatever our others of our opponents or whatever it is put ourselves in their shoes it is put ourselves in their shoes it is put ourselves in their shoes because after all you know you're trying because after all you know you're trying because after all you know you're trying to you're trying to negotiations about to you're trying to negotiations about to you're trying to negotiations about influence you're trying to change influence you're trying to change influence you're trying to change someone's mind how can you possibly someone's mind how can you possibly someone's mind how can you possibly change someone's mind unless you know change someone's mind unless you know change someone's mind unless you know where that mind is unless you know where where that mind is unless you know where where that mind is unless you know where their hearts are and so so there was a their hearts are and so so there was a their hearts are and so so there was a so so so anthropology led me naturally into the anthropology led me naturally into the anthropology led me naturally into the field of negotiation because also I field of negotiation because also I field of negotiation because also I wanted to get my my hands dirty I wanted wanted to get my my hands dirty I wanted wanted to get my my hands dirty I wanted to not just reflect in the academy but to not just reflect in the academy but to not just reflect in the academy but actually participate and get involved actually participate and get involved actually participate and get involved and learn from some of the hardest and learn from some of the hardest and learn from some of the hardest conflicts around whether it's deep in conflicts around whether it's deep in conflicts around whether it's deep in coalmines or in boardroom battles or in coalmines or in boardroom battles or in coalmines or in boardroom battles or in Civil Wars but really understand what Civil Wars but really understand what Civil Wars but really understand what works where's the better way here that works where's the better way here that works where's the better way here that works for not only the two parties but works for not only the two parties but works for not only the two parties but for the larger society the larger for the larger society the larger for the larger society the larger Community for for the world in the end Community for for the world in the end Community for for the world in the end so I'm wondering if you can take us into

so I'm wondering if you can take us into so I'm wondering if you can take us into the Camp David framework which you had a the Camp David framework which you had a the Camp David framework which you had a role in to some extent even as somebody role in to some extent even as somebody role in to some extent even as somebody in your early to mid 20s um I think in your early to mid 20s um I think in your early to mid 20s um I think there's so many principles there I mean there's so many principles there I mean there's so many principles there I mean you talk about it in your book B uh you talk about it in your book B uh you talk about it in your book B uh possible and uh it was just it was possible and uh it was just it was possible and uh it was just it was really what happened there was a miracle really what happened there was a miracle really what happened there was a miracle and I'd love to talk about North Korea and I'd love to talk about North Korea and I'd love to talk about North Korea as well because you had a role in that as well because you had a role in that as well because you had a role in that and and you know almost everybody and and you know almost everybody and and you know almost everybody listening would remember the nuclear listening would remember the nuclear listening would remember the nuclear showdown between Trump and um the leader showdown between Trump and um the leader showdown between Trump and um the leader of North Korea and you know this idea of North Korea and you know this idea of North Korea and you know this idea that we were going to blow the world to that we were going to blow the world to that we were going to blow the world to smithin but I mean literally there has smithin but I mean literally there has smithin but I mean literally there has hardly been a global conflict where you hardly been a global conflict where you hardly been a global conflict where you haven't been involved in some way and haven't been involved in some way and haven't been involved in some way and trying to bring peace over the last 50 trying to bring peace over the last 50 trying to bring peace over the last 50 years and uh why don't we start at Camp years and uh why don't we start at Camp years and uh why don't we start at Camp David because I think that's a great David because I think that's a great David because I think that's a great case study for how a lot of your tactic case study for how a lot of your tactic case study for how a lot of your tactic strategies um see the real light of day strategies um see the real light of day strategies um see the real light of day and what I want leaders by the way and what I want leaders by the way and what I want leaders by the way leaders what I want you to walk away leaders what I want you to walk away leaders what I want you to walk away with by the time we're done is some with by the time we're done is some with by the time we're done is some tools for your toolkit and there's tools for your toolkit and there's tools for your toolkit and there's nobody better I think in the world to nobody better I think in the world to nobody better I think in the world to talk to about that than than you talk to about that than than you talk to about that than than you Williams so take us back to Camp David Williams so take us back to Camp David Williams so take us back to Camp David maybe set the stage and then what maybe set the stage and then what maybe set the stage and then what happened happened happened yeah thank you Carrie uh Camp David was yeah thank you Carrie uh Camp David was yeah thank you Carrie uh Camp David was a great teacher for me um it was it a great teacher for me um it was it a great teacher for me um it was it seemed like an impossible negotiation I seemed like an impossible negotiation I seemed like an impossible negotiation I mean you're a business leader you're a mean you're a business leader you're a mean you're a business leader you're a church leader whatever you face these church leader whatever you face these church leader whatever you face these impossible negotiation and then nothing impossible negotiation and then nothing impossible negotiation and then nothing seem to be more impossible than the seem to be more impossible than the seem to be more impossible than the Middle East at that point the two

Middle East at that point the two Middle East at that point the two principal adversaries the two strongest principal adversaries the two strongest principal adversaries the two strongest powers of the time were Egypt and Israel powers of the time were Egypt and Israel powers of the time were Egypt and Israel and uh Israel had occupied in a previous and uh Israel had occupied in a previous and uh Israel had occupied in a previous war the siai peninsula where Mount Si is war the siai peninsula where Mount Si is war the siai peninsula where Mount Si is and and uh and and uh and and uh and and and and they they seem to be implacable and they they seem to be implacable and they they seem to be implacable enemies Egypt had attacked israels I enemies Egypt had attacked israels I enemies Egypt had attacked israels I mentioned on yum kipur the 1973 War mentioned on yum kipur the 1973 War mentioned on yum kipur the 1973 War attacked into the Sinai and so on attacked into the Sinai and so on attacked into the Sinai and so on thousands of people dead on both sides thousands of people dead on both sides thousands of people dead on both sides it seemed impossible there seemed to be it seemed impossible there seemed to be it seemed impossible there seemed to be a psychological barrier and a psychological barrier and a psychological barrier and uh uh uh and President Carter had tried to bring and President Carter had tried to bring and President Carter had tried to bring the E the leader of Egypt Anar Sadat and the E the leader of Egypt Anar Sadat and the E the leader of Egypt Anar Sadat and the prime minister of Israel manakan the prime minister of Israel manakan the prime minister of Israel manakan Bean together and and everyone said this Bean together and and everyone said this Bean together and and everyone said this is impossible forget it don't waste is impossible forget it don't waste is impossible forget it don't waste don't waste your political Capital don't don't waste your political Capital don't don't waste your political Capital don't waste your time but he went out one uh waste your time but he went out one uh waste your time but he went out one uh weekend to with rosaland to Camp David weekend to with rosaland to Camp David weekend to with rosaland to Camp David you know the presidential Retreat right you know the presidential Retreat right you know the presidential Retreat right and where there was just some cabins and and where there was just some cabins and and where there was just some cabins and she said to them you she said to them you she said to them you know but don't just try bringing them know but don't just try bringing them know but don't just try bringing them here you know to a place of nature away here you know to a place of nature away here you know to a place of nature away from everything you know what I would from everything you know what I would from everything you know what I would call what I call a balcony you know it's call what I call a balcony you know it's call what I call a balcony you know it's a place calm and perspective you know a place calm and perspective you know a place calm and perspective you know place has power and now you've been place has power and now you've been place has power and now you've been there I haven't if I can just interrupt there I haven't if I can just interrupt there I haven't if I can just interrupt you I I I read a I think I read a book you I I I read a I think I read a book you I I I read a I think I read a book on presidents at some point thank you on presidents at some point thank you on presidents at some point thank you Jeff Henderson for the recommendation it Jeff Henderson for the recommendation it Jeff Henderson for the recommendation it described Camp David we are we are not

described Camp David we are we are not described Camp David we are we are not talking five star luxury here we're talking five star luxury here we're talking five star luxury here we're talking like it's a camp right wooden talking like it's a camp right wooden talking like it's a camp right wooden cabins that's it small cabins in the in cabins that's it small cabins in the in cabins that's it small cabins in the in woods and the hills there of Maryland woods and the hills there of Maryland woods and the hills there of Maryland exactly it's very rural it's rustic exactly it's very rural it's rustic exactly it's very rural it's rustic gotcha and and everyone gets their own gotcha and and everyone gets their own gotcha and and everyone gets their own little cabin it's the Imagine boy scouts little cabin it's the Imagine boy scouts little cabin it's the Imagine boy scouts or girl scouts that you know that's the or girl scouts that you know that's the or girl scouts that you know that's the kind of thing I mean maybe this is where kind of thing I mean maybe this is where kind of thing I mean maybe this is where world leaders go when they're trying to world leaders go when they're trying to world leaders go when they're trying to broker piece yeah but it's like and it's broker piece yeah but it's like and it's broker piece yeah but it's like and it's great it's uh it was uh I think set up great it's uh it was uh I think set up great it's uh it was uh I think set up originally by President Eisenhower he originally by President Eisenhower he originally by President Eisenhower he named it after his son David yeah and uh named it after his son David yeah and uh named it after his son David yeah and uh and Rosen to her credit said why don't and Rosen to her credit said why don't and Rosen to her credit said why don't you give it one last chance so Carter you give it one last chance so Carter you give it one last chance so Carter invited Sadat and vean no one expected invited Sadat and vean no one expected invited Sadat and vean no one expected anything they maybe come for three days anything they maybe come for three days anything they maybe come for three days they came with their leaders he said they came with their leaders he said they came with their leaders he said let's just get away from the media get let's just get away from the media get let's just get away from the media get away from the everything get away from away from the everything get away from away from the everything get away from the Middle East and get some the Middle East and get some the Middle East and get some perspective and uh and it turned out perspective and uh and it turned out perspective and uh and it turned out that that bean and Sadat you know they that that bean and Sadat you know they that that bean and Sadat you know they didn't get along there wasn't good didn't get along there wasn't good didn't get along there wasn't good chemistry um uh Sadat wanted the entire chemistry um uh Sadat wanted the entire chemistry um uh Sadat wanted the entire signai back ban said I'll pluck up I'd signai back ban said I'll pluck up I'd signai back ban said I'll pluck up I'd rather pluck up my right eye or rather pluck up my right eye or rather pluck up my right eye or you know rather than give up one you know rather than give up one you know rather than give up one settlement you know there were these settlement you know there were these settlement you know there were these Jewish settlements in the Sinai and they Jewish settlements in the Sinai and they Jewish settlements in the Sinai and they were just implacable I mean just fixed were just implacable I mean just fixed were just implacable I mean just fixed positions and after three days everyone positions and after three days everyone positions and after three days everyone they were just about to pack their bags they were just about to pack their bags they were just about to pack their bags and go home and Carter thought he would and go home and Carter thought he would and go home and Carter thought he would give it one last shot so he turned to S give it one last shot so he turned to S give it one last shot so he turned to S Vance who was the Secretary of State and Vance who was the Secretary of State and Vance who was the Secretary of State and said Sai you got any ideas and just by

said Sai you got any ideas and just by said Sai you got any ideas and just by coincidence uh Sai Vance had um been coincidence uh Sai Vance had um been coincidence uh Sai Vance had um been Martha's Vineyard vacationing I don't Martha's Vineyard vacationing I don't Martha's Vineyard vacationing I don't know a few weeks earlier and and my my know a few weeks earlier and and my my know a few weeks earlier and and my my my colleague Roger fiser they'd play my colleague Roger fiser they'd play my colleague Roger fiser they'd play tennis together and S and Roger knew tennis together and S and Roger knew tennis together and S and Roger knew each other and so I said you know I've each other and so I said you know I've each other and so I said you know I've got this Scamp David thing coming up you got this Scamp David thing coming up you got this Scamp David thing coming up you got any ideas for me and and Roger took got any ideas for me and and Roger took got any ideas for me and and Roger took him back afterwards and gave him a him back afterwards and gave him a him back afterwards and gave him a little kind of little privately little kind of little privately little kind of little privately published book that Roger and I had just published book that Roger and I had just published book that Roger and I had just worked on called International mediation worked on called International mediation worked on called International mediation a working guide and it was uh we just a working guide and it was uh we just a working guide and it was uh we just come up with it and by interviewing come up with it and by interviewing come up with it and by interviewing other Medias we're trying to get what other Medias we're trying to get what other Medias we're trying to get what what are best practices here for how do what are best practices here for how do what are best practices here for how do you deal with these impossible conflicts you deal with these impossible conflicts you deal with these impossible conflicts and in it we had one idea that we had uh and in it we had one idea that we had uh and in it we had one idea that we had uh particularly you know underlined was the particularly you know underlined was the particularly you know underlined was the idea of what's called a single idea of what's called a single idea of what's called a single negotiating text and this is something negotiating text and this is something negotiating text and this is something that all of you can use uh it's like uh that all of you can use uh it's like uh that all of you can use uh it's like uh it was like instead of having two rigid it was like instead of having two rigid it was like instead of having two rigid positions right the Egyptian paper and positions right the Egyptian paper and positions right the Egyptian paper and the Israeli paper paper so it was a the Israeli paper paper so it was a the Israeli paper paper so it was a single negotiating text in fact I'll single negotiating text in fact I'll single negotiating text in fact I'll talk about how it was used there so so talk about how it was used there so so talk about how it was used there so so in any case Vance suggested said to in any case Vance suggested said to in any case Vance suggested said to Carter why don't we use this and so this Carter why don't we use this and so this Carter why don't we use this and so this is how it went Egypt and Israel have is how it went Egypt and Israel have is how it went Egypt and Israel have their fixed positions every you know the their fixed positions every you know the their fixed positions every you know the opponents are in their fixed positions opponents are in their fixed positions opponents are in their fixed positions Egypt says we want the we demand the Egypt says we want the we demand the Egypt says we want the we demand the entire zai back Israel says you know entire zai back Israel says you know entire zai back Israel says you know we're gonna keep a third of it and those we're gonna keep a third of it and those we're gonna keep a third of it and those are the positions the things that people are the positions the things that people are the positions the things that people say they want the terms and conditions say they want the terms and conditions say they want the terms and conditions the dollars and cents and whatever it is the dollars and cents and whatever it is the dollars and cents and whatever it is the Americans went to them and said to the Americans went to them and said to the Americans went to them and said to them as the as the as a third party

them as the as the as a third party them as the as the as a third party said keep your positions said keep your positions said keep your positions we're not asking you to make anything we're not asking you to make anything we're not asking you to make anything we're not even gonna start there we're we're not even gonna start there we're we're not even gonna start there we're not even gonna start there keep your not even gonna start there keep your not even gonna start there keep your positions just tell us a little bit positions just tell us a little bit positions just tell us a little bit about what your underlying interests are about what your underlying interests are about what your underlying interests are and that distinction between positions and that distinction between positions and that distinction between positions and interests may be the key distinction and interests may be the key distinction and interests may be the key distinction in successful negotiation which is to go in successful negotiation which is to go in successful negotiation which is to go behind the position to find out what is behind the position to find out what is behind the position to find out what is it people that really want you know what it people that really want you know what it people that really want you know what are their underlying needs or desires or are their underlying needs or desires or are their underlying needs or desires or aspirations or fears or concerns those aspirations or fears or concerns those aspirations or fears or concerns those are the interests in this case the are the interests in this case the are the interests in this case the Egyptian interest behind wanting the Egyptian interest behind wanting the Egyptian interest behind wanting the entire s back was sovereignty the land entire s back was sovereignty the land entire s back was sovereignty the land had been theirs since the time of the had been theirs since the time of the had been theirs since the time of the Pharaohs and they wanted it back Pharaohs and they wanted it back Pharaohs and they wanted it back Israel's interest was in Israel's interest was in Israel's interest was in security Egyptian tanks had crossed the security Egyptian tanks had crossed the security Egyptian tanks had crossed the Sinai four times in the previous 30 Sinai four times in the previous 30 Sinai four times in the previous 30 years and they didn't want that years and they didn't want that years and they didn't want that happening again and to attack Israel so happening again and to attack Israel so happening again and to attack Israel so then the question became not how do we then the question became not how do we then the question became not how do we draw a line in the sand between the draw a line in the sand between the draw a line in the sand between the Egyptian position and the Israeli Egyptian position and the Israeli Egyptian position and the Israeli position you know the typical thing in a position you know the typical thing in a position you know the typical thing in a negotiation okay you give a little bit negotiation okay you give a little bit negotiation okay you give a little bit you which would have led nowhere nowhere you which would have led nowhere nowhere you which would have led nowhere nowhere but how do we reconcile how do we but how do we reconcile how do we but how do we reconcile how do we satisfy both sides of central interests satisfy both sides of central interests satisfy both sides of central interests sovereignty and sovereignty and sovereignty and security and then that actually allows security and then that actually allows security and then that actually allows us to bring our creativity and there was us to bring our creativity and there was us to bring our creativity and there was a creative idea out there that actually a creative idea out there that actually a creative idea out there that actually the Egyptians had actually mentioned the Egyptians had actually mentioned the Egyptians had actually mentioned which was a demilitarized si in other which was a demilitarized si in other which was a demilitarized si in other words a Sinai where Egyptian tanks could

words a Sinai where Egyptian tanks could words a Sinai where Egyptian tanks could go I mean Egyptian flag could fly go I mean Egyptian flag could fly go I mean Egyptian flag could fly everywhere Egypt would get the entire everywhere Egypt would get the entire everywhere Egypt would get the entire Sinai back but Egyptian tanks could go Sinai back but Egyptian tanks could go Sinai back but Egyptian tanks could go nowhere in other words so so Egypt would nowhere in other words so so Egypt would nowhere in other words so so Egypt would get sovereignty and Israel would get get sovereignty and Israel would get get sovereignty and Israel would get security because if you think about the security because if you think about the security because if you think about the interests then there's a both-and interests then there's a both-and interests then there's a both-and possibility if you think about positions possibility if you think about positions possibility if you think about positions it's only either or and you know who's it's only either or and you know who's it's only either or and you know who's going to win who's going to lose no how going to win who's going to lose no how going to win who's going to lose no how do we satisfy the interests of both do we satisfy the interests of both do we satisfy the interests of both parties and that was a hard thing to do parties and that was a hard thing to do parties and that was a hard thing to do but the Americans This goes back to the but the Americans This goes back to the but the Americans This goes back to the single negotiating text the Americans single negotiating text the Americans single negotiating text the Americans then Drew up a then Drew up a then Drew up a paper and they described this idea of a paper and they described this idea of a paper and they described this idea of a demilitarized sign and what could happen demilitarized sign and what could happen demilitarized sign and what could happen you know paper but it wasn't an American you know paper but it wasn't an American you know paper but it wasn't an American they went to the parties they said this they went to the parties they said this they went to the parties they said this is not an American proposal we don't is not an American proposal we don't is not an American proposal we don't want you to accept it we're not asking want you to accept it we're not asking want you to accept it we're not asking you to make any you to make any you to make any decisions all we want you to do is decisions all we want you to do is decisions all we want you to do is criticize criticize criticize it well no one likes to make a painful it well no one likes to make a painful it well no one likes to make a painful concession you know I don't want to give concession you know I don't want to give concession you know I don't want to give into the other side but everybody into the other side but everybody into the other side but everybody loves to criticize loves to criticize loves to criticize true so the Egyptians criticize it the true so the Egyptians criticize it the true so the Egyptians criticize it the Israelis criticize it the Americans then Israelis criticize it the Americans then Israelis criticize it the Americans then went back it's it's a low status paper went back it's it's a low status paper went back it's it's a low status paper you know there's no there's no T you know there's no there's no T you know there's no there's no T letterhead there's no just a proposal letterhead there's no just a proposal letterhead there's no just a proposal you might have coffee stains on it and you might have coffee stains on it and you might have coffee stains on it and whatever it is the Americans went back whatever it is the Americans went back whatever it is the Americans went back and they said okay how do we address the and they said okay how do we address the and they said okay how do we address the Egyptian concerns the Israeli concerns Egyptian concerns the Israeli concerns Egyptian concerns the Israeli concerns how do we make it better for one without how do we make it better for one without how do we make it better for one without making it worse for the making it worse for the making it worse for the other they then went back and said we've other they then went back and said we've other they then went back and said we've worked on a little bit can you give us

worked on a little bit can you give us worked on a little bit can you give us more criticism and they got more more criticism and they got more more criticism and they got more criticism they went through that process criticism they went through that process criticism they went through that process 23 times over the course of the next 10 23 times over the course of the next 10 23 times over the course of the next 10 days 23 days 23 days 23 times never asking for any decision times never asking for any decision times never asking for any decision until there was no way they could until there was no way they could until there was no way they could improve on the idea and it was only at improve on the idea and it was only at improve on the idea and it was only at that point that Carter took it to Bean that point that Carter took it to Bean that point that Carter took it to Bean and saddat and said look this is the and saddat and said look this is the and saddat and said look this is the best we can do would you like it or not best we can do would you like it or not best we can do would you like it or not and then saddat and bean are faced with and then saddat and bean are faced with and then saddat and bean are faced with a very different decision instead of a very different decision instead of a very different decision instead of having to make you know dozens of having to make you know dozens of having to make you know dozens of painful political con sessions they only painful political con sessions they only painful political con sessions they only had to make one decision and only at the had to make one decision and only at the had to make one decision and only at the end when they could see exactly what end when they could see exactly what end when they could see exactly what they were going to get in return sedak they were going to get in return sedak they were going to get in return sedak could see he was going to get the entire could see he was going to get the entire could see he was going to get the entire Peninsula back Bean could see he was get Peninsula back Bean could see he was get Peninsula back Bean could see he was get an unprecedented uh peace with Egypt and an unprecedented uh peace with Egypt and an unprecedented uh peace with Egypt and so they agreed and that was the essence so they agreed and that was the essence so they agreed and that was the essence of the deal that has lasted to this day of the deal that has lasted to this day of the deal that has lasted to this day 45 years later 45 years later 45 years later through Wars revolutions cetas through Wars revolutions cetas through Wars revolutions cetas assassinations Israel and Egypt remain assassinations Israel and Egypt remain assassinations Israel and Egypt remain they transform the conflict they remain they transform the conflict they remain they transform the conflict they remain Partners they're not I wouldn't call Partners they're not I wouldn't call Partners they're not I wouldn't call them close friends in any way but they them close friends in any way but they them close friends in any way but they remain partners and they're not at War remain partners and they're not at War remain partners and they're not at War and that was a huge breakthrough and it and that was a huge breakthrough and it and that was a huge breakthrough and it showed me just what was possible when showed me just what was possible when showed me just what was possible when you have that Spirit of possibility that you have that Spirit of possibility that you have that Spirit of possibility that President Carter and his team brought to President Carter and his team brought to President Carter and his team brought to that negotiation that even seemingly that negotiation that even seemingly that negotiation that even seemingly impossible situations if you bring the impossible situations if you bring the impossible situations if you bring the right approach if you're creative about right approach if you're creative about right approach if you're creative about it if you're Innovative about it you can it if you're Innovative about it you can it if you're Innovative about it you can find a way through often

find a way through often find a way through often there's a powerful ending to the story there's a powerful ending to the story there's a powerful ending to the story to that really speaks to human emotion to that really speaks to human emotion to that really speaks to human emotion um so if I understand this right I've um so if I understand this right I've um so if I understand this right I've read the book and you can correct my read the book and you can correct my read the book and you can correct my storytelling they had the agreement um storytelling they had the agreement um storytelling they had the agreement um Arafat said yes monan Bean said yes and Arafat said yes monan Bean said yes and Arafat said yes monan Bean said yes and then uh there was something else that then uh there was something else that then uh there was something else that came up the Egyptians are like well that came up the Egyptians are like well that came up the Egyptians are like well that or monan Bean is like well if that's the or monan Bean is like well if that's the or monan Bean is like well if that's the case I'm out and they were literally case I'm out and they were literally case I'm out and they were literally packing up to go home and president packing up to go home and president packing up to go home and president Carter had made out some pictures for Carter had made out some pictures for Carter had made out some pictures for monan bean and his grandchildren um do monan bean and his grandchildren um do monan bean and his grandchildren um do you want to pick up the story from there you want to pick up the story from there you want to pick up the story from there sure so this is in shambles it's all sure so this is in shambles it's all sure so this is in shambles it's all gone downhill there's no peace Accord gone downhill there's no peace Accord gone downhill there's no peace Accord yeah that's it it was about a side yeah that's it it was about a side yeah that's it it was about a side letter that that Carter had promised letter that that Carter had promised letter that that Carter had promised Sadat and around the city of Jerusalem Sadat and around the city of Jerusalem Sadat and around the city of Jerusalem which is saying that the American which is saying that the American which is saying that the American position which had been you know the position which had been you know the position which had been you know the American policy wasn't changing you know American policy wasn't changing you know American policy wasn't changing you know they still um and and uh and that really they still um and and uh and that really they still um and and uh and that really you know we all in conflicts we we all you know we all in conflicts we we all you know we all in conflicts we we all get triggered by things and that really get triggered by things and that really get triggered by things and that really triggered ban and whatever because you triggered ban and whatever because you triggered ban and whatever because you know Jerusalem you know so he's at a know Jerusalem you know so he's at a know Jerusalem you know so he's at a that's it moment that's it we're leaving that's it moment that's it we're leaving that's it moment that's it we're leaving we're leaving and that often happens if we're leaving and that often happens if we're leaving and that often happens if you notice at the end of a difficult you notice at the end of a difficult you notice at the end of a difficult negotiation there's this last minute negotiation there's this last minute negotiation there's this last minute blowup you know which threatens to blow blowup you know which threatens to blow blowup you know which threatens to blow everything up so Carter was very sad but everything up so Carter was very sad but everything up so Carter was very sad but he remembered that bean had asked for he remembered that bean had asked for he remembered that bean had asked for these photographs of him together with these photographs of him together with these photographs of him together with saddat together with Carter you know saddat together with Carter you know saddat together with Carter you know there at Camp David and for his there at Camp David and for his there at Camp David and for his grandchildren wow and and Carter usually

grandchildren wow and and Carter usually grandchildren wow and and Carter usually just signed it you know Jimmy Carter or just signed it you know Jimmy Carter or just signed it you know Jimmy Carter or whatever but this time he's you know he whatever but this time he's you know he whatever but this time he's you know he made it out for each person e eat he made it out for each person e eat he made it out for each person e eat he remember that he got the names of I remember that he got the names of I remember that he got the names of I think there were maybe eight think there were maybe eight think there were maybe eight grandchildren each one of them and he grandchildren each one of them and he grandchildren each one of them and he signed it with love Jimmy Carter and signed it with love Jimmy Carter and signed it with love Jimmy Carter and just a personal touch he went over there just a personal touch he went over there just a personal touch he went over there and he walked over from his cabin to and he walked over from his cabin to and he walked over from his cabin to Bean's cabin and uh and ban was they're Bean's cabin and uh and ban was they're Bean's cabin and uh and ban was they're kind of cool with each other of course kind of cool with each other of course kind of cool with each other of course and said and Carter was feeling very sad and said and Carter was feeling very sad and said and Carter was feeling very sad because the whole thing had collapsed because the whole thing had collapsed because the whole thing had collapsed you know and uh and thinking oh okay you know and uh and thinking oh okay you know and uh and thinking oh okay maybe there's going to be War I mean maybe there's going to be War I mean maybe there's going to be War I mean that it's this is not a just a collapse that it's this is not a just a collapse that it's this is not a just a collapse of an agreement it might mean going back of an agreement it might mean going back of an agreement it might mean going back to war very shortly so just very to war very shortly so just very to war very shortly so just very heavy-hearted and um and he handed he heavy-hearted and um and he handed he heavy-hearted and um and he handed he said you know Mr Prime Minister you'd said you know Mr Prime Minister you'd said you know Mr Prime Minister you'd ask me for these photographs so I ask me for these photographs so I ask me for these photographs so I brought them over to say goodbye to you brought them over to say goodbye to you brought them over to say goodbye to you and uh and bean looked at one and he and uh and bean looked at one and he and uh and bean looked at one and he sees the name of his Grand grandchild sees the name of his Grand grandchild sees the name of his Grand grandchild you know you know you know meav and his eyes start to water he's meav and his eyes start to water he's meav and his eyes start to water he's thinking about his grandchildren and thinking about his grandchildren and thinking about his grandchildren and Carter says you know I was hoping that Carter says you know I was hoping that Carter says you know I was hoping that we could tell your grandchildren that we could tell your grandchildren that we could tell your grandchildren that their grandfather and I and and had had their grandfather and I and and had had their grandfather and I and and had had brought peace to the Middle East and so brought peace to the Middle East and so brought peace to the Middle East and so then they you know they were both then they you know they were both then they you know they were both tearing up tearing up tearing up and that and that and that human shift that human reframe of the human shift that human reframe of the human shift that human reframe of the situation of saying what's this really situation of saying what's this really situation of saying what's this really about you know it's about the longer

about you know it's about the longer about you know it's about the longer term it's about the grandchildren it's term it's about the grandchildren it's term it's about the grandchildren it's about the future it's about your about the future it's about your about the future it's about your legacy that changed things and even legacy that changed things and even legacy that changed things and even though um Bean didn't immediately change though um Bean didn't immediately change though um Bean didn't immediately change his mind on that moment just change the his mind on that moment just change the his mind on that moment just change the tone of the conversation and Carter tone of the conversation and Carter tone of the conversation and Carter mentioned at the very end you know Bean mentioned at the very end you know Bean mentioned at the very end you know Bean said couldn't you just withdraw that said couldn't you just withdraw that said couldn't you just withdraw that letter he said Carter said look I I gave letter he said Carter said look I I gave letter he said Carter said look I I gave my word to Sadat I'm not gonna I can't I my word to Sadat I'm not gonna I can't I my word to Sadat I'm not gonna I can't I can't do that you know I'd like to be can't do that you know I'd like to be can't do that you know I'd like to be able to do it but I can't it's my it's able to do it but I can't it's my it's able to do it but I can't it's my it's my I gave my word to him he trusts me uh my I gave my word to him he trusts me uh my I gave my word to him he trusts me uh but what I can do is I can maybe reframe but what I can do is I can maybe reframe but what I can do is I can maybe reframe the letter rephrase the lettering so I'm the letter rephrase the lettering so I'm the letter rephrase the lettering so I'm not I don't mention exactly what the not I don't mention exactly what the not I don't mention exactly what the American policy is on Jerusalem which is American policy is on Jerusalem which is American policy is on Jerusalem which is a but I just say the the American policy a but I just say the the American policy a but I just say the the American policy as it was articulated by the US as it was articulated by the US as it was articulated by the US ambassador to the UN whose name was ambassador to the UN whose name was ambassador to the UN whose name was Arthur Goldberg at the time you know on Arthur Goldberg at the time you know on Arthur Goldberg at the time you know on this date whatever just so it's not so this date whatever just so it's not so this date whatever just so it's not so um like in your face right your anyway um like in your face right your anyway um like in your face right your anyway then he walks back and he's about to go then he walks back and he's about to go then he walks back and he's about to go over to saddat to explain that the whole over to saddat to explain that the whole over to saddat to explain that the whole thing is over and he's at his cabin and thing is over and he's at his cabin and thing is over and he's at his cabin and the phone rings in his cabin and it's the phone rings in his cabin and it's the phone rings in his cabin and it's Manan Bean saying Mr President I've Manan Bean saying Mr President I've Manan Bean saying Mr President I've decided after much deliberation to decided after much deliberation to decided after much deliberation to accept your letter and that was and then accept your letter and that was and then accept your letter and that was and then they go to to the White House and they go to to the White House and they go to to the White House and announce it to the world and and to this announce it to the world and and to this announce it to the world and and to this day we we benefit from it but it just day we we benefit from it but it just day we we benefit from it but it just shows you how shows you how shows you how even in these very big you know even in these very big you know even in these very big you know negotiations between states and so on

negotiations between states and so on negotiations between states and so on that human connection that human touch that human connection that human touch that human connection that human touch the heart the human heart one heart to the heart the human heart one heart to the heart the human heart one heart to another you know just softening really another you know just softening really another you know just softening really can make a huge difference at the right can make a huge difference at the right can make a huge difference at the right moment there were so many are so many moment there were so many are so many moment there were so many are so many principles foundational to your approach principles foundational to your approach principles foundational to your approach but in getting to yes and you share it but in getting to yes and you share it but in getting to yes and you share it again in in other books is positions again in in other books is positions again in in other books is positions versus interests and I'm wondering if versus interests and I'm wondering if versus interests and I'm wondering if you could break that down because that's you could break that down because that's you could break that down because that's something I've shared so many times with something I've shared so many times with something I've shared so many times with leaders over the years and it was so leaders over the years and it was so leaders over the years and it was so transformative in my thinking what is transformative in my thinking what is transformative in my thinking what is the difference between an interest and a the difference between an interest and a the difference between an interest and a position and why do you say focus on position and why do you say focus on position and why do you say focus on interests not interests not interests not positions because when there's ever a positions because when there's ever a positions because when there's ever a negotiation or a conflict and I must say negotiation or a conflict and I must say negotiation or a conflict and I must say you know I Define negotiation very you know I Define negotiation very you know I Define negotiation very broadly as back and forth communication broadly as back and forth communication broadly as back and forth communication trying to reach agreement in that broad trying to reach agreement in that broad trying to reach agreement in that broad sense of the term when I ask you know sense of the term when I ask you know sense of the term when I ask you know leaders who do you know who do you leaders who do you know who do you leaders who do you know who do you negotiate with the course of your day it negotiate with the course of your day it negotiate with the course of your day it starts with their families their ckers starts with their families their ckers starts with their families their ckers who din who's pick including yourself who din who's pick including yourself who din who's pick including yourself and then I asked them well how much of and then I asked them well how much of and then I asked them well how much of your time do you spend negotiating and your time do you spend negotiating and your time do you spend negotiating and when they think about it it's 25% 50% when they think about it it's 25% 50% when they think about it it's 25% 50% 75% of their time so in that broad sense 75% of their time so in that broad sense 75% of their time so in that broad sense of the term so this is like every day of the term so this is like every day of the term so this is like every day and what we tend to do in a negotiation and what we tend to do in a negotiation and what we tend to do in a negotiation is we take a position in other words we is we take a position in other words we is we take a position in other words we take a concrete stance we say I want it take a concrete stance we say I want it take a concrete stance we say I want it for that amount of money I want that for that amount of money I want that for that amount of money I want that office with the corner view I want this office with the corner view I want this office with the corner view I want this concrete thing for my church or whatever

concrete thing for my church or whatever concrete thing for my church or whatever it is it's very concrete positions are it is it's very concrete positions are it is it's very concrete positions are the concrete things we say we want the concrete things we say we want the concrete things we say we want interests are the underlying interests are the underlying interests are the underlying motivations interests are the underlying motivations interests are the underlying motivations interests are the underlying needs or desires or aspirations or fears needs or desires or aspirations or fears needs or desires or aspirations or fears or concerns that people have that drive or concerns that people have that drive or concerns that people have that drive us the drivers that drive us to take a us the drivers that drive us to take a us the drivers that drive us to take a certain position and in negotiation we certain position and in negotiation we certain position and in negotiation we tend to you know like okay we want the tend to you know like okay we want the tend to you know like okay we want the siai back you know that's a position siai back you know that's a position siai back you know that's a position we're going to keep the siai you know we're going to keep the siai you know we're going to keep the siai you know that's a position and you can just you that's a position and you can just you that's a position and you can just you can just bump heads you pressure the can just bump heads you pressure the can just bump heads you pressure the other side to accept your position then other side to accept your position then other side to accept your position then the more you push the more they push the more you push the more they push the more you push the more they push back you get nowhere or or you or you back you get nowhere or or you or you back you get nowhere or or you or you kind of give up your position and no one kind of give up your position and no one kind of give up your position and no one likes to give in but actually if you ask likes to give in but actually if you ask likes to give in but actually if you ask the magical question why why is it you the magical question why why is it you the magical question why why is it you want that you know why do you want the want that you know why do you want the want that you know why do you want the sign it well security I need to be safe sign it well security I need to be safe sign it well security I need to be safe you know tanks have roll across why do you know tanks have roll across why do you know tanks have roll across why do you want to keep it well sovereignty you you want to keep it well sovereignty you you want to keep it well sovereignty you know it's been since then suddenly know it's been since then suddenly know it's been since then suddenly you're at a level where it's different you're at a level where it's different you're at a level where it's different and then you can ask the question well and then you can ask the question well and then you can ask the question well how do we meet your interests and meet how do we meet your interests and meet how do we meet your interests and meet mine how do we meet everyone's interests mine how do we meet everyone's interests mine how do we meet everyone's interests in this and so it's a it's a it's a it's in this and so it's a it's a it's a it's in this and so it's a it's a it's a it's a reframe it's a magical shift that a reframe it's a magical shift that a reframe it's a magical shift that unlocks the potential for creativity to unlocks the potential for creativity to unlocks the potential for creativity to explore options for Mutual again and and explore options for Mutual again and and explore options for Mutual again and and it's funny how it's just that the it's funny how it's just that the it's funny how it's just that the mindset we just approach things as mindset we just approach things as mindset we just approach things as positions and then you look behind the

positions and then you look behind the positions and then you look behind the positions interest and suddenly positions interest and suddenly positions interest and suddenly possibilities emerg that you might not possibilities emerg that you might not possibilities emerg that you might not have imagined before so let's go with have imagined before so let's go with have imagined before so let's go with that in mind to 20 was it 17 with uh Kim that in mind to 20 was it 17 with uh Kim that in mind to 20 was it 17 with uh Kim Jong-un and Donald Trump and probably Jong-un and Donald Trump and probably Jong-un and Donald Trump and probably the most credible threat of nuclear war the most credible threat of nuclear war the most credible threat of nuclear war that we've had in a generation as the that we've had in a generation as the that we've had in a generation as the two strong willed leaders start to spar two strong willed leaders start to spar two strong willed leaders start to spar off and call each other names and off and call each other names and off and call each other names and threaten to blow each other up what what threaten to blow each other up what what threaten to blow each other up what what you you got involved with that can you you you got involved with that can you you you got involved with that can you explain how I did because uh I back in explain how I did because uh I back in explain how I did because uh I back in the 80s I was working not just on the the 80s I was working not just on the the 80s I was working not just on the Middle East I the thing that was like Middle East I the thing that was like Middle East I the thing that was like how do we avert a nuclear war between how do we avert a nuclear war between how do we avert a nuclear war between the United States and the then Soviet the United States and the then Soviet the United States and the then Soviet Union and so I worked with the White Union and so I worked with the White Union and so I worked with the White House you know on on um and senators and House you know on on um and senators and House you know on on um and senators and so on on how we kind of create and with so on on how we kind of create and with so on on how we kind of create and with the Soviets about how we can reduce the the Soviets about how we can reduce the the Soviets about how we can reduce the risk of an inadvertent or accidental risk of an inadvertent or accidental risk of an inadvertent or accidental nuclear war and uh so when 2017 I felt a nuclear war and uh so when 2017 I felt a nuclear war and uh so when 2017 I felt a little bit like Rip Van little bit like Rip Van little bit like Rip Van Winkle like you know pulled out like you Winkle like you know pulled out like you Winkle like you know pulled out like you know 3040 years later H here we go again know 3040 years later H here we go again know 3040 years later H here we go again we thought we had kind of you know we thought we had kind of you know we thought we had kind of you know prevented nuclear war the end of the prevented nuclear war the end of the prevented nuclear war the end of the Soviet Union all that and suddenly here Soviet Union all that and suddenly here Soviet Union all that and suddenly here we are back with a situation that we are back with a situation that we are back with a situation that experts were saying could be as high as experts were saying could be as high as experts were saying could be as high as a 50% % chance of a nuclear war as Kim a 50% % chance of a nuclear war as Kim a 50% % chance of a nuclear war as Kim Jong-un was busily testing nuclear Jong-un was busily testing nuclear Jong-un was busily testing nuclear missiles that could reach the United

missiles that could reach the United missiles that could reach the United States um Trump said this will not States um Trump said this will not States um Trump said this will not happen Trump threatened fire and fury happen Trump threatened fire and fury happen Trump threatened fire and fury and we'll destroy the whole country you and we'll destroy the whole country you and we'll destroy the whole country you know uh you know Kim there was the know uh you know Kim there was the know uh you know Kim there was the rhetoric got high and so I thought okay rhetoric got high and so I thought okay rhetoric got high and so I thought okay I'm not an expert here on North Korea I'm not an expert here on North Korea I'm not an expert here on North Korea but someone needs to do but someone needs to do but someone needs to do something and so I thought okay and what something and so I thought okay and what something and so I thought okay and what like to do is I I like to begin with an like to do is I I like to begin with an like to do is I I like to begin with an exercise which I think is an exercise exercise which I think is an exercise exercise which I think is an exercise any leader can do in an impossible any leader can do in an impossible any leader can do in an impossible situation which is I like to begin by situation which is I like to begin by situation which is I like to begin by writing the victory speeches you know writing the victory speeches you know writing the victory speeches you know begin at the end and it's again it's a begin at the end and it's again it's a begin at the end and it's again it's a thought experiment where you write the thought experiment where you write the thought experiment where you write the other side's victory speech in which other side's victory speech in which other side's victory speech in which they accept what you want them to do but they accept what you want them to do but they accept what you want them to do but then they have to go in front of their then they have to go in front of their then they have to go in front of their constituency their flock the people they constituency their flock the people they constituency their flock the people they care about their board of directors care about their board of directors care about their board of directors their voters and explain why accepting their voters and explain why accepting their voters and explain why accepting your proposal was a victory for them your proposal was a victory for them your proposal was a victory for them yeah and and you know it's it's an yeah and and you know it's it's an yeah and and you know it's it's an exercise to kind of an imagination and exercise to kind of an imagination and exercise to kind of an imagination and so in this case I sat down and I tried so in this case I sat down and I tried so in this case I sat down and I tried to write Trump's victory speech and you to write Trump's victory speech and you to write Trump's victory speech and you know what are the three key talking know what are the three key talking know what are the three key talking points of it would be and you know I I points of it would be and you know I I points of it would be and you know I I researched and I knew quite a little bit researched and I knew quite a little bit researched and I knew quite a little bit quite a bit about you know Donald Trump quite a bit about you know Donald Trump quite a bit about you know Donald Trump and I researched and I thought okay well and I researched and I thought okay well and I researched and I thought okay well it's three things basically one is I got it's three things basically one is I got it's three things basically one is I got the greatest deal ever you know this the greatest deal ever you know this the greatest deal ever you know this that saved the world you know this you

that saved the world you know this you that saved the world you know this you Obama couldn't do this Bush couldn't do Obama couldn't do this Bush couldn't do Obama couldn't do this Bush couldn't do this no one could do this but I was able this no one could do this but I was able this no one could do this but I was able to to to do this because Obama had to to to do this because Obama had to to to do this because Obama had actually in uh had told Trump um this is actually in uh had told Trump um this is actually in uh had told Trump um this is the hardest this is the most dangerous the hardest this is the most dangerous the hardest this is the most dangerous situation I'm leaving you is the situation I'm leaving you is the situation I'm leaving you is the situation with North Korea and uh so situation with North Korea and uh so situation with North Korea and uh so Trump had needed to be say this was the Trump had needed to be say this was the Trump had needed to be say this was the greatest deal he really Prides self I'm greatest deal he really Prides self I'm greatest deal he really Prides self I'm being a great dealmaker second thing is being a great dealmaker second thing is being a great dealmaker second thing is you know I kept America safe of course you know I kept America safe of course you know I kept America safe of course you know that's that's that's that's the you know that's that's that's that's the you know that's that's that's that's the interest right and the third is he interest right and the third is he interest right and the third is he really cared about money says and I really cared about money says and I really cared about money says and I didn't spend a didn't spend a didn't spend a penny but penny but penny but Kim was harder he was kind of a little Kim was harder he was kind of a little Kim was harder he was kind of a little bit of a black box at the time no one bit of a black box at the time no one bit of a black box at the time no one really knew him he was a new leader uh really knew him he was a new leader uh really knew him he was a new leader uh he was young no one knew about him so I he was young no one knew about him so I he was young no one knew about him so I went on the went on the went on the web Google and I said who knows anything web Google and I said who knows anything web Google and I said who knows anything about Kim Jong-un and the only person about Kim Jong-un and the only person about Kim Jong-un and the only person who seemed to know anything about Kim who seemed to know anything about Kim who seemed to know anything about Kim Jong-un was a retired American Jong-un was a retired American Jong-un was a retired American basketball player by the name of Dennis basketball player by the name of Dennis basketball player by the name of Dennis Rodman right right and uh Dennis Rodman Rodman right right and uh Dennis Rodman Rodman right right and uh Dennis Rodman had gone over there for an exhibition had gone over there for an exhibition had gone over there for an exhibition game and it turned out game and it turned out game and it turned out Kim loved you know basketball and he Kim loved you know basketball and he Kim loved you know basketball and he love the Chicago Bulls that Dennis love the Chicago Bulls that Dennis love the Chicago Bulls that Dennis Rodman and Michael Jordan played on back Rodman and Michael Jordan played on back Rodman and Michael Jordan played on back in the 90s uh championship games and so in the 90s uh championship games and so in the 90s uh championship games and so and they' struck up a friendship so I and they' struck up a friendship so I and they' struck up a friendship so I thought okay I gotta find Dennis Rodman thought okay I gotta find Dennis Rodman thought okay I gotta find Dennis Rodman is not so easy you know like how how do is not so easy you know like how how do is not so easy you know like how how do you get to Dennis Rodman you know and so you get to Dennis Rodman you know and so you get to Dennis Rodman you know and so it's it's you know like who do you know it's it's you know like who do you know it's it's you know like who do you know who do you know who do you know who do who do you know who do you know who do who do you know who do you know who do you know it didn't work out one it

you know it didn't work out one it you know it didn't work out one it didn't work like finally finally I was didn't work like finally finally I was didn't work like finally finally I was able to get in touch with someone who able to get in touch with someone who able to get in touch with someone who was a friend of Dennis Rodman who said was a friend of Dennis Rodman who said was a friend of Dennis Rodman who said he comes to visit me sometimes and uh he comes to visit me sometimes and uh he comes to visit me sometimes and uh you can come so I you know we have pizza you can come so I you know we have pizza you can come so I you know we have pizza together so I flew out to have pizza in together so I flew out to have pizza in together so I flew out to have pizza in La there with and uh the guy was there La there with and uh the guy was there La there with and uh the guy was there but Dennis Rodman didn't show up he was but Dennis Rodman didn't show up he was but Dennis Rodman didn't show up he was out partying and and he said wow he out partying and and he said wow he out partying and and he said wow he likes to part at night and he called him likes to part at night and he called him likes to part at night and he called him up and and Dennis Rodman didn't even up and and Dennis Rodman didn't even up and and Dennis Rodman didn't even kind of recognize him at that moment so kind of recognize him at that moment so kind of recognize him at that moment so but he said don't worry you maybe you but he said don't worry you maybe you but he said don't worry you maybe you can change your plans stay here can change your plans stay here can change your plans stay here overnight and maybe he'll come back in overnight and maybe he'll come back in overnight and maybe he'll come back in the middle of night and you can catch the middle of night and you can catch the middle of night and you can catch him then and I thought oh okay but I him then and I thought oh okay but I him then and I thought oh okay but I thought you know Stakes are high no one thought you know Stakes are high no one thought you know Stakes are high no one knows anything about Kim we might go to knows anything about Kim we might go to knows anything about Kim we might go to nuclear war so I did that I changed my nuclear war so I did that I changed my nuclear war so I did that I changed my whole schedule around I missed him in whole schedule around I missed him in whole schedule around I missed him in the middle of the night but I got up in the middle of the night but I got up in the middle of the night but I got up in the early in the morning I went out to the early in the morning I went out to the early in the morning I went out to you know to see the housekeeper she said you know to see the housekeeper she said you know to see the housekeeper she said well you're in luck Dennis came back well you're in luck Dennis came back well you're in luck Dennis came back back the trouble is he often sleeps in back the trouble is he often sleeps in back the trouble is he often sleeps in for three for three for three days do you want me to wake him up so I days do you want me to wake him up so I days do you want me to wake him up so I said yeah and so about an hour later he said yeah and so about an hour later he said yeah and so about an hour later he comes out you know he's he's got his comes out you know he's he's got his comes out you know he's he's got his tattoos and his earrings and his nose tattoos and his earrings and his nose tattoos and his earrings and his nose all that you know he says bad day man all that you know he says bad day man all that you know he says bad day man bad day what do you want you know he was bad day what do you want you know he was bad day what do you want you know he was kind of grumpy very grumpy but we sat kind of grumpy very grumpy but we sat kind of grumpy very grumpy but we sat down and I'd down and I'd down and I'd learned a lot from that hour and a half learned a lot from that hour and a half learned a lot from that hour and a half I had with him he told me about I said I had with him he told me about I said I had with him he told me about I said look you know what would you want I said look you know what would you want I said look you know what would you want I said well you're the only man who seems to well you're the only man who seems to well you're the only man who seems to know Kim Jong-un we got to stop the we know Kim Jong-un we got to stop the we know Kim Jong-un we got to stop the we got to prevent a nuclear war here he

got to prevent a nuclear war here he got to prevent a nuclear war here he said well you know I I met him uh we got said well you know I I met him uh we got said well you know I I met him uh we got friends he took me out drinking we um I friends he took me out drinking we um I friends he took me out drinking we um I held his baby you know he told me about held his baby you know he told me about held his baby you know he told me about him and and uh but and there was one him and and uh but and there was one him and and uh but and there was one thing he told he said and I really thing he told he said and I really thing he told he said and I really believe that he doesn't really want War believe that he doesn't really want War believe that he doesn't really want War I I believe he really wants you know to I I believe he really wants you know to I I believe he really wants you know to find a way out of this which no one else find a way out of this which no one else find a way out of this which no one else believed everyone at that point thought believed everyone at that point thought believed everyone at that point thought this guy's a kind of a you know kind of this guy's a kind of a you know kind of this guy's a kind of a you know kind of a he was painted as some kind of almost a he was painted as some kind of almost a he was painted as some kind of almost like a lunatic or something in in in like a lunatic or something in in in like a lunatic or something in in in people's eyes and uh and then he said to people's eyes and uh and then he said to people's eyes and uh and then he said to me something is really critical for any me something is really critical for any me something is really critical for any of us in when you're trying to of us in when you're trying to of us in when you're trying to understand someone he told me a little understand someone he told me a little understand someone he told me a little bit about uh Kim jong-un's dream Kim bit about uh Kim jong-un's dream Kim bit about uh Kim jong-un's dream Kim Jong-un had a dream he told uh not not a Jong-un had a dream he told uh not not a Jong-un had a dream he told uh not not a not a dream but you know what what was not a dream but you know what what was not a dream but you know what what was his dream idea his dream was one day to his dream idea his dream was one day to his dream idea his dream was one day to be able to walk down Fifth Avenue in New be able to walk down Fifth Avenue in New be able to walk down Fifth Avenue in New York go to Madison Square Garden and York go to Madison Square Garden and York go to Madison Square Garden and watch the New York Knicks play the watch the New York Knicks play the watch the New York Knicks play the Chicago Chicago Chicago Bulls and that was Bingo okay that gives Bulls and that was Bingo okay that gives Bulls and that was Bingo okay that gives you a little bit of an insight into the you a little bit of an insight into the you a little bit of an insight into the other side how do you put yourself into other side how do you put yourself into other side how do you put yourself into someone's shoes little insight into that someone's shoes little insight into that someone's shoes little insight into that and I thought well what if that could be and I thought well what if that could be and I thought well what if that could be true what if we could make that true I true what if we could make that true I true what if we could make that true I mean to prevent a nuclear war that would mean to prevent a nuclear war that would mean to prevent a nuclear war that would be worth doing so that inspired me to be worth doing so that inspired me to be worth doing so that inspired me to keep going and to be able to come back keep going and to be able to come back keep going and to be able to come back to the victory speech of what Kim would to the victory speech of what Kim would to the victory speech of what Kim would say which would be something like you say which would be something like you say which would be something like you know I kept my regime safe I kept my know I kept my regime safe I kept my know I kept my regime safe I kept my family safe you know safety often is family safe you know safety often is family safe you know safety often is number one you know the and this and number one you know the and this and number one you know the and this and number two is people yearn for respect

number two is people yearn for respect number two is people yearn for respect and we're finally you know getting the and we're finally you know getting the and we're finally you know getting the respect we deserve from the rest of the respect we deserve from the rest of the respect we deserve from the rest of the world you know and that's why he could world you know and that's why he could world you know and that's why he could go and be in New York and so on and the go and be in New York and so on and the go and be in New York and so on and the third is you know and we'll be the next third is you know and we'll be the next third is you know and we'll be the next Asian tiger we we'll be the next Asian tiger we we'll be the next Asian tiger we we'll be the next economic Miracle something like that but economic Miracle something like that but economic Miracle something like that but that was a huge lesson for me of the that was a huge lesson for me of the that was a huge lesson for me of the importance of listening to the other importance of listening to the other importance of listening to the other side figuring out what they really want side figuring out what they really want side figuring out what they really want what's there and so everyone was shocked what's there and so everyone was shocked what's there and so everyone was shocked and surprised when you know a year a and surprised when you know a year a and surprised when you know a year a year and a bit later you know Kim and year and a bit later you know Kim and year and a bit later you know Kim and and Trump were meeting in Singapore for and Trump were meeting in Singapore for and Trump were meeting in Singapore for an onpressed meeting never before at a an onpressed meeting never before at a an onpressed meeting never before at a North Korea and an American leader met North Korea and an American leader met North Korea and an American leader met and they actually um even though they and they actually um even though they and they actually um even though they didn't you know reach a detailed didn't you know reach a detailed didn't you know reach a detailed agreement that actually ended the thing agreement that actually ended the thing agreement that actually ended the thing they meeting again the personal thing they meeting again the personal thing they meeting again the personal thing changed the atmosphere and the risk of changed the atmosphere and the risk of changed the atmosphere and the risk of nuclear war plunged from an estimated nuclear war plunged from an estimated nuclear war plunged from an estimated 50% to less than 1% so it just showed me 50% to less than 1% so it just showed me 50% to less than 1% so it just showed me the the power of of uh of writing those the the power of of uh of writing those the the power of of uh of writing those Victory speeches imagining that because Victory speeches imagining that because Victory speeches imagining that because then they were able to give their then they were able to give their then they were able to give their Victory speeches Trump came back and he Victory speeches Trump came back and he Victory speeches Trump came back and he immediately tweeted you know Americans immediately tweeted you know Americans immediately tweeted you know Americans can be safe now rest safe there's no can be safe now rest safe there's no can be safe now rest safe there's no threat from North Korea so so that threat from North Korea so so that threat from North Korea so so that ability to really ability to really ability to really work backwards from the victory speeches work backwards from the victory speeches work backwards from the victory speeches in those difficult situations I find as in those difficult situations I find as in those difficult situations I find as maybe the the key technique or the maybe the the key technique or the maybe the the key technique or the iconic technique of a iconic technique of a iconic technique of a possibilist so I'd love for you it was

possibilist so I'd love for you it was possibilist so I'd love for you it was Jim Collins who really challenged you to Jim Collins who really challenged you to Jim Collins who really challenged you to take Decades of your ideas he's a good take Decades of your ideas he's a good take Decades of your ideas he's a good friend of yours and to consolidate them friend of yours and to consolidate them friend of yours and to consolidate them into sort of one big work right one one into sort of one big work right one one into sort of one big work right one one main idea do you want to walk us through main idea do you want to walk us through main idea do you want to walk us through the framework because so many of the the framework because so many of the the framework because so many of the leaders who listen to this they love leaders who listen to this they love leaders who listen to this they love their jobs hate the conflict they hate their jobs hate the conflict they hate their jobs hate the conflict they hate the angry emails they hate the people the angry emails they hate the people the angry emails they hate the people who are like well now I'm leaving the who are like well now I'm leaving the who are like well now I'm leaving the staff conflict and I mean yeah this staff conflict and I mean yeah this staff conflict and I mean yeah this works at deescalate nuclear war it also works at deescalate nuclear war it also works at deescalate nuclear war it also works on a very micro level of you know works on a very micro level of you know works on a very micro level of you know home and work and office and people Etc home and work and office and people Etc home and work and office and people Etc so do you mind just giving us the the so do you mind just giving us the the so do you mind just giving us the the overview of the possiblest framework for overview of the possiblest framework for overview of the possiblest framework for sure sure sure so Jim and I like to so Jim and I like to so Jim and I like to hike we were hiking in the mountains uh hike we were hiking in the mountains uh hike we were hiking in the mountains uh near our home here in Colorado and uh near our home here in Colorado and uh near our home here in Colorado and uh Jim is also really good at asking Jim is also really good at asking Jim is also really good at asking unexpected questions and so we're on unexpected questions and so we're on unexpected questions and so we're on this hike and he says turns to me he this hike and he says turns to me he this hike and he says turns to me he says you know he says uh you've been says you know he says uh you've been says you know he says uh you've been wandering around the the world's right wandering around the the world's right wandering around the the world's right now there's a lot of conflict in the now there's a lot of conflict in the now there's a lot of conflict in the world just like you're mentioning world just like you're mentioning world just like you're mentioning whether it's at the micro to the macro whether it's at the micro to the macro whether it's at the micro to the macro to the political to the business he said to the political to the business he said to the political to the business he said you know you've been dealing some of the you know you've been dealing some of the you know you've been dealing some of the world's toughest conflicts for a long world's toughest conflicts for a long world's toughest conflicts for a long time for the last 45 years do you think time for the last 45 years do you think time for the last 45 years do you think you could sum up everything you've you could sum up everything you've you could sum up everything you've learned in a single learned in a single learned in a single sentence and that was the kicker a

sentence and that was the kicker a sentence and that was the kicker a single sentence and I looked at him single sentence and I looked at him single sentence and I looked at him quizzically and he said yeah he said you quizzically and he said yeah he said you quizzically and he said yeah he said you know Charles Darwin was able to do that know Charles Darwin was able to do that know Charles Darwin was able to do that you know and the Origin of Species and you know and the Origin of Species and you know and the Origin of Species and so on he said uh do you think you could so on he said uh do you think you could so on he said uh do you think you could do that and I like challenges and I like do that and I like challenges and I like do that and I like challenges and I like simplicity so I went back and thought simplicity so I went back and thought simplicity so I went back and thought about it and our next hike you know gave about it and our next hike you know gave about it and our next hike you know gave it my best shot and then he said now go it my best shot and then he said now go it my best shot and then he said now go write the write the write the book great thanks take the sentence and book great thanks take the sentence and book great thanks take the sentence and make it into a book you know get it down make it into a book you know get it down make it into a book you know get it down to its Colonel and the sentence had to its Colonel and the sentence had to its Colonel and the sentence had three parts um this was the framework three parts um this was the framework three parts um this was the framework was that actually when you're dealing was that actually when you're dealing was that actually when you're dealing with a difficult conflict situation be with a difficult conflict situation be with a difficult conflict situation be it with your staff be it with your it with your staff be it with your it with your staff be it with your parishioners be it with whoever you're parishioners be it with whoever you're parishioners be it with whoever you're dealing with uh be you know home the dealing with uh be you know home the dealing with uh be you know home the first first first and biggest obstacle that we face is not and biggest obstacle that we face is not and biggest obstacle that we face is not what we think it is we think it's that what we think it is we think it's that what we think it is we think it's that difficult person we think it's that difficult person we think it's that difficult person we think it's that difficult organization or and but difficult organization or and but difficult organization or and but actually I find the most difficult actually I find the most difficult actually I find the most difficult person who gets in the way of us being person who gets in the way of us being person who gets in the way of us being successful negotiation is right here successful negotiation is right here successful negotiation is right here it's me it's myself it's not the person it's me it's myself it's not the person it's me it's myself it's not the person on the other side of the table it's the on the other side of the table it's the on the other side of the table it's the person on this side of the table it's person on this side of the table it's person on this side of the table it's the person I look at in the mirror every the person I look at in the mirror every the person I look at in the mirror every morning it's me it's our own very morning it's me it's our own very morning it's me it's our own very natural very human tendency to react in natural very human tendency to react in natural very human tendency to react in other words to act out of fear act out other words to act out of fear act out other words to act out of fear act out of anger that quick reaction that as the of anger that quick reaction that as the of anger that quick reaction that as the old saying goes when angry you will make old saying goes when angry you will make old saying goes when angry you will make the best speech you will ever regret yes

the best speech you will ever regret yes the best speech you will ever regret yes yeah you will send the best email you yeah you will send the best email you yeah you will send the best email you will ever regret yep and uh so that's will ever regret yep and uh so that's will ever regret yep and uh so that's the that's the biggest obstacle and what the that's the biggest obstacle and what the that's the biggest obstacle and what I find the key to success here is the I find the key to success here is the I find the key to success here is the ability ability ability to pause for a single second it's that to pause for a single second it's that to pause for a single second it's that difference between the stimulus and the difference between the stimulus and the difference between the stimulus and the response in the middle of that there's response in the middle of that there's response in the middle of that there's choice there's agency you can pause and choice there's agency you can pause and choice there's agency you can pause and go to what I call the balcony which is go to what I call the balcony which is go to what I call the balcony which is just a metaphor for imagining that just a metaphor for imagining that just a metaphor for imagining that you're negotiating on a stage part of you're negotiating on a stage part of you're negotiating on a stage part of you goes to a mental and emotional a you goes to a mental and emotional a you goes to a mental and emotional a spiritual balcony some place of calm and spiritual balcony some place of calm and spiritual balcony some place of calm and perspective where you're where you can perspective where you're where you can perspective where you're where you can keep your eyes on the prize what is most keep your eyes on the prize what is most keep your eyes on the prize what is most important to you what is most important important to you what is most important important to you what is most important in this situation to you and see the in this situation to you and see the in this situation to you and see the larger picture and if we can go to the larger picture and if we can go to the larger picture and if we can go to the balcony that is the first Victory the balcony that is the first Victory the balcony that is the first Victory the first victory in this process is a first victory in this process is a first victory in this process is a victory with yourself because it turns victory with yourself because it turns victory with yourself because it turns out that negotiation is an inside game out that negotiation is an inside game out that negotiation is an inside game and we negotiate from the inside out so and we negotiate from the inside out so and we negotiate from the inside out so it's getting perspective it's that pause it's getting perspective it's that pause it's getting perspective it's that pause it's reacting not responding it's a it's reacting not responding it's a it's reacting not responding it's a little bit ofay Play Between the little bit ofay Play Between the little bit ofay Play Between the stimulus and the response that's it it's stimulus and the response that's it it's stimulus and the response that's it it's that tiny thing and it's you know that tiny thing and it's you know that tiny thing and it's you know everyone has their favorite way of doing everyone has their favorite way of doing everyone has their favorite way of doing it some people take a breath or two it some people take a breath or two it some people take a breath or two breaths or three breaths just to bring breaths or three breaths just to bring breaths or three breaths just to bring some oxygen to your brain you ask for a some oxygen to your brain you ask for a some oxygen to your brain you ask for a break uh I like to go for walks even

break uh I like to go for walks even break uh I like to go for walks even before a difficult situation or just before a difficult situation or just before a difficult situation or just know pause you know go walk in nature know pause you know go walk in nature know pause you know go walk in nature pray prayer is a way of going to the pray prayer is a way of going to the pray prayer is a way of going to the balcony meditation is a way of going to balcony meditation is a way of going to balcony meditation is a way of going to the balcony we all have our favorite the balcony we all have our favorite the balcony we all have our favorite ways David was a giant balcony and there ways David was a giant balcony and there ways David was a giant balcony and there places that have balcony the church places that have balcony the church places that have balcony the church itself might be a balcony in other words itself might be a balcony in other words itself might be a balcony in other words it's a it's any place any methodology it's a it's any place any methodology it's a it's any place any methodology that helps you go to your higher self that helps you go to your higher self that helps you go to your higher self your better self that that brings out your better self that that brings out your better self that that brings out the best in you so that you can actually the best in you so that you can actually the best in you so that you can actually have that Clarity and that perspective have that Clarity and that perspective have that Clarity and that perspective because conflict you can't see anything because conflict you can't see anything because conflict you can't see anything it's like it's like all this dust and it's like it's like all this dust and it's like it's like all this dust and dirt in the air and just a place where dirt in the air and just a place where dirt in the air and just a place where you can ask yourself what's truly you can ask yourself what's truly you can ask yourself what's truly important here you can prevent yourself important here you can prevent yourself important here you can prevent yourself from reacting in a way that you know as from reacting in a way that you know as from reacting in a way that you know as Gandhi once said an i for an i and we Gandhi once said an i for an i and we Gandhi once said an i for an i and we all go all go all go blind blind blind true okay so that's part one go to true okay so that's part one go to true okay so that's part one go to that's part one that's the ability to that's part one that's the ability to that's part one that's the ability to negotiate with yourself to get to yes negotiate with yourself to get to yes negotiate with yourself to get to yes with yourself then that sets a stage for with yourself then that sets a stage for with yourself then that sets a stage for the second thing which is getting to yes the second thing which is getting to yes the second thing which is getting to yes with others which is you know which with others which is you know which with others which is you know which we've been talking about which is okay we've been talking about which is okay we've been talking about which is okay how do you get to with someone who how do you get to with someone who how do you get to with someone who doesn't seem to be and her answer is no doesn't seem to be and her answer is no doesn't seem to be and her answer is no you know they're not interested in yes you know they're not interested in yes you know they're not interested in yes uh and uh you know they're you know uh and uh you know they're you know uh and uh you know they're you know you're you know you may be open but you're you know you may be open but you're you know you may be open but they're taking a very fixed position and they're taking a very fixed position and they're taking a very fixed position and they're dug in and they're making they're dug in and they're making they're dug in and they're making threats and they're emotional and so threats and they're emotional and so threats and they're emotional and so they're not on the balcony what can you

they're not on the balcony what can you they're not on the balcony what can you do in that situation having gone to the do in that situation having gone to the do in that situation having gone to the balcony um well to me it's like it's balcony um well to me it's like it's balcony um well to me it's like it's like your mind is O over here their mind like your mind is O over here their mind like your mind is O over here their mind is way over here they're in a different is way over here they're in a different is way over here they're in a different place it's almost like uh like when I place it's almost like uh like when I place it's almost like uh like when I was walking with Jim you know there's was walking with Jim you know there's was walking with Jim you know there's like a giant valley between us and like a giant valley between us and like a giant valley between us and another thing it's like a Chasm it's another thing it's like a Chasm it's another thing it's like a Chasm it's like a Grand Canyon it's between your like a Grand Canyon it's between your like a Grand Canyon it's between your where you are and where they are and where you are and where they are and where you are and where they are and that's filled with doubt anxiety fear that's filled with doubt anxiety fear that's filled with doubt anxiety fear how am I gonna look to someone uh unmet how am I gonna look to someone uh unmet how am I gonna look to someone uh unmet needs you know baggage oh this they did needs you know baggage oh this they did needs you know baggage oh this they did this to me in the past all that stuff this to me in the past all that stuff this to me in the past all that stuff right so our job which is not easy is to right so our job which is not easy is to right so our job which is not easy is to for a moment leave where your mind for a moment leave where your mind for a moment leave where your mind is and start the conversation where they is and start the conversation where they is and start the conversation where they are move over to their place from and are move over to their place from and are move over to their place from and then proceed to build them a bridge over then proceed to build them a bridge over then proceed to build them a bridge over that chasm in other words a golden that chasm in other words a golden that chasm in other words a golden bridge make it as attractive as possible bridge make it as attractive as possible bridge make it as attractive as possible because our job is to try to make it as because our job is to try to make it as because our job is to try to make it as easy as possible for the other side to easy as possible for the other side to easy as possible for the other side to move in the direction we'd like them to move in the direction we'd like them to move in the direction we'd like them to move it's not how to make it hard for move it's not how to make it hard for move it's not how to make it hard for them because sometimes and we get into them because sometimes and we get into them because sometimes and we get into conflict we think okay how do I make it conflict we think okay how do I make it conflict we think okay how do I make it harder for them no our job is to make it harder for them no our job is to make it harder for them no our job is to make it easier for them to make the decision we easier for them to make the decision we easier for them to make the decision we want them to make to deliver that want them to make to deliver that want them to make to deliver that victory speech that actually accepts victory speech that actually accepts victory speech that actually accepts what we want them to do that's the key what we want them to do that's the key what we want them to do that's the key so you want to build them a golden so you want to build them a golden so you want to build them a golden bridge so instead of pushing it's the

bridge so instead of pushing it's the bridge so instead of pushing it's the opposite it's opposite it's opposite it's attracting it's actually and it starts attracting it's actually and it starts attracting it's actually and it starts with the process of listening which is with the process of listening which is with the process of listening which is maybe you know we think of negotiation maybe you know we think of negotiation maybe you know we think of negotiation as um as as um as as um as talking but it's talking but it's talking but it's actually much more about listening actually much more about listening actually much more about listening there's a Reas you know they say God there's a Reas you know they say God there's a Reas you know they say God gave us two ears and one mouth for a gave us two ears and one mouth for a gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason which is to listen twice as much reason which is to listen twice as much reason which is to listen twice as much as we talk because by listening not just as we talk because by listening not just as we talk because by listening not just listening the way we often listen which listening the way we often listen which listening the way we often listen which is which is is which is is which is um you know I'm G to listen to you so um you know I'm G to listen to you so um you know I'm G to listen to you so that I can refute what you just said that I can refute what you just said that I can refute what you just said right no yeah it's listening from within right no yeah it's listening from within right no yeah it's listening from within their frame of reference listening their frame of reference listening their frame of reference listening putting yourself in their ues listening putting yourself in their ues listening putting yourself in their ues listening with empathy listening with your heart with empathy listening with your heart with empathy listening with your heart not just your head listening not just not just your head listening not just not just your head listening not just for what's being said but for what's not for what's being said but for what's not for what's being said but for what's not being said that's the key to building being said that's the key to building being said that's the key to building them that bridge okay so that's number them that bridge okay so that's number them that bridge okay so that's number two and then take us to the third two and then take us to the third two and then take us to the third element of the framework now the third element of the framework now the third element of the framework now the third element balcony unlocks the potential element balcony unlocks the potential element balcony unlocks the potential that exists within us it's the inside that exists within us it's the inside that exists within us it's the inside part it's the inside negotiation Bridge part it's the inside negotiation Bridge part it's the inside negotiation Bridge unlocks the potential between the unlocks the potential between the unlocks the potential between the parties right where's the potential for parties right where's the potential for parties right where's the potential for Mutual gain where's that demilitarized Mutual gain where's that demilitarized Mutual gain where's that demilitarized Sinai where's those where those options Sinai where's those where those options Sinai where's those where those options for Mutual gain where's the creative for Mutual gain where's the creative for Mutual gain where's the creative possibilities the truth is in today's possibilities the truth is in today's possibilities the truth is in today's world it's hard for people to go to the world it's hard for people to go to the world it's hard for people to go to the balcony where live in such a reactive balcony where live in such a reactive balcony where live in such a reactive stressful World well and it's instant stressful World well and it's instant stressful World well and it's instant now I mean you can just pick up your

now I mean you can just pick up your now I mean you can just pick up your phone and you've just blown it up right phone and you've just blown it up right phone and you've just blown it up right immediately that's it that's exactly it immediately that's it that's exactly it immediately that's it that's exactly it Carrie and it's hard for people to build Carrie and it's hard for people to build Carrie and it's hard for people to build a golden bridge I mean I mean people are a golden bridge I mean I mean people are a golden bridge I mean I mean people are Burning Bridges they're not Building Burning Bridges they're not Building Burning Bridges they're not Building Bridges you know people are not going to Bridges you know people are not going to Bridges you know people are not going to the balcony they're going to The Gutter the balcony they're going to The Gutter the balcony they're going to The Gutter and so how do you how do you how do you and so how do you how do you how do you and so how do you how do you how do you go to the balcony yourself how do you go to the balcony yourself how do you go to the balcony yourself how do you help the other side go to the balcony help the other side go to the balcony help the other side go to the balcony how do you build that bridge in these how do you build that bridge in these how do you build that bridge in these arduous circumstances that we face today arduous circumstances that we face today arduous circumstances that we face today whether it's in the micro or whether whether it's in the micro or whether whether it's in the micro or whether it's in the macro and and that's where it's in the macro and and that's where it's in the macro and and that's where we're going to need some help we're we're going to need some help we're we're going to need some help we're going to need some help and normally going to need some help and normally going to need some help and normally speaking when we're in a conflict speaking when we're in a conflict speaking when we're in a conflict situation situation situation we tend to reduce everything to two we tend to reduce everything to two we tend to reduce everything to two sides US versus them you know it's it's sides US versus them you know it's it's sides US versus them you know it's it's the Democrats versus Republicans it's the Democrats versus Republicans it's the Democrats versus Republicans it's progressives conservatives it's it's h progressives conservatives it's it's h progressives conservatives it's it's h labor versus management it's uh this you labor versus management it's uh this you labor versus management it's uh this you know it's always Us Versus know it's always Us Versus know it's always Us Versus Them Them Them which blinds us to the fact that no which blinds us to the fact that no which blinds us to the fact that no conflict is conflict is conflict is two-sided there's always a third side two-sided there's always a third side two-sided there's always a third side and that third side is the larger ho and that third side is the larger ho and that third side is the larger ho it's the side of the hole it's the it's the side of the hole it's the it's the side of the hole it's the people around people around people around us uh the larger Community to which we us uh the larger Community to which we us uh the larger Community to which we both belong it might be the community of both belong it might be the community of both belong it might be the community of churches it might be the community the churches it might be the community the churches it might be the community the community the neighborhood community community the neighborhood community community the neighborhood community might be the family it might be the work might be the family it might be the work might be the family it might be the work organization it's the larger hole that organization it's the larger hole that organization it's the larger hole that third side that we forget that's an third side that we forget that's an third side that we forget that's an untapped potential that if we can

untapped potential that if we can untapped potential that if we can organize and engage that third side it organize and engage that third side it organize and engage that third side it can create a container like a safe space can create a container like a safe space can create a container like a safe space within which the most difficult conflict within which the most difficult conflict within which the most difficult conflict can gradually be transformed within can gradually be transformed within can gradually be transformed within which the parties you know the people which the parties you know the people which the parties you know the people around us who can help us go to the around us who can help us go to the around us who can help us go to the balcony the people around us who can balcony the people around us who can balcony the people around us who can help build those bridges and it's not help build those bridges and it's not help build those bridges and it's not just mediators mediators of course are just mediators mediators of course are just mediators mediators of course are classic third Siders but it's our classic third Siders but it's our classic third Siders but it's our friends it's our neighbors it's our friends it's our neighbors it's our friends it's our neighbors it's our colleagues it's it's that outside colleagues it's it's that outside colleagues it's it's that outside perspective it's that outside perspective it's that outside perspective it's that outside perspective and we need more and more in perspective and we need more and more in perspective and we need more and more in this world to engage that third side and this world to engage that third side and this world to engage that third side and my suggestion to those of you who are my suggestion to those of you who are my suggestion to those of you who are listening who are church leaders or listening who are church leaders or listening who are church leaders or Business Leaders for that matter is Business Leaders for that matter is Business Leaders for that matter is guess what you can be that third side guess what you can be that third side guess what you can be that third side you are often that third side all of us you are often that third side all of us you are often that third side all of us any of us can be the third side and any of us can be the third side and any of us can be the third side and encourage people to take the third side encourage people to take the third side encourage people to take the third side because that's the that's the missing because that's the that's the missing because that's the that's the missing ingredient often in these situations ingredient often in these situations ingredient often in these situations that allows even the most difficult that allows even the most difficult that allows even the most difficult conflicts to be transformed is the conflicts to be transformed is the conflicts to be transformed is the remembrance of the remembrance of the remembrance of the whole so who was that third side in the whole so who was that third side in the whole so who was that third side in the Trump and Kim Jong-un Trump and Kim Jong-un Trump and Kim Jong-un conflict I mean I guess you were part of conflict I mean I guess you were part of conflict I mean I guess you were part of that who who else I was there I mean it that who who else I was there I mean it that who who else I was there I mean it was anyone who was concerned about you was anyone who was concerned about you was anyone who was concerned about you know reducing the risk of nuclear war know reducing the risk of nuclear war know reducing the risk of nuclear war but in the end it's the world it's but in the end it's the world it's but in the end it's the world it's Humanity I mean I mean who's gonna who's Humanity I mean I mean who's gonna who's Humanity I mean I mean who's gonna who's going to suffer I mean it's the people going to suffer I mean it's the people going to suffer I mean it's the people around who are going to suffer it's like around who are going to suffer it's like around who are going to suffer it's like it everyone in the world would be it everyone in the world would be it everyone in the world would be impacted by there would is that sort of impacted by there would is that sort of impacted by there would is that sort of like in getting to yes you talk about

like in getting to yes you talk about like in getting to yes you talk about the batna something I've used over and the batna something I've used over and the batna something I've used over and over again the best alternative to a over again the best alternative to a over again the best alternative to a negotiated agreement but then your new negotiated agreement but then your new negotiated agreement but then your new book you talk about the wna uh which is book you talk about the wna uh which is book you talk about the wna uh which is the worst alternative to a negotiated the worst alternative to a negotiated the worst alternative to a negotiated agreement if we can't work this thing agreement if we can't work this thing agreement if we can't work this thing out with North Korea in the US we have out with North Korea in the US we have out with North Korea in the US we have no Planet left right there's no Madison no Planet left right there's no Madison no Planet left right there's no Madison Square Gardens to go to right um we blow Square Gardens to go to right um we blow Square Gardens to go to right um we blow up the Middle East um etc up the Middle East um etc up the Middle East um etc etc yeah that's what motivates the third etc yeah that's what motivates the third etc yeah that's what motivates the third side but the third side could be even side but the third side could be even side but the third side could be even like for example I reached out uh like for example I reached out uh like for example I reached out uh eventually you know I I reached out to eventually you know I I reached out to eventually you know I I reached out to vka Trump like she's the president's vka Trump like she's the president's vka Trump like she's the president's daughter right yeah he trusts her he daughter right yeah he trusts her he daughter right yeah he trusts her he doesn't trust many people but he trusts doesn't trust many people but he trusts doesn't trust many people but he trusts his own flesh and blood and he trusts his own flesh and blood and he trusts his own flesh and blood and he trusts her uh she's a third Sider she's a her uh she's a third Sider she's a her uh she's a third Sider she's a potential third Sider she wants her potential third Sider she wants her potential third Sider she wants her father to succeed she wants her father father to succeed she wants her father father to succeed she wants her father to have a good a legacy and so on um uh to have a good a legacy and so on um uh to have a good a legacy and so on um uh so it's it's the people around us it's a so it's it's the people around us it's a so it's it's the people around us it's a people on our side it doesn't have to be people on our side it doesn't have to be people on our side it doesn't have to be neutrals it's so it's it's everybody I neutrals it's so it's it's everybody I neutrals it's so it's it's everybody I mean the third side that be mean the third side that be mean the third side that be the truth is it's all of us all of us the truth is it's all of us all of us the truth is it's all of us all of us are the third side even the parties are the third side even the parties are the third side even the parties themselves are are are part of the themselves are are are part of the themselves are are are part of the larger third side they may not realize larger third side they may not realize larger third side they may not realize it but they are they're part of the it but they are they're part of the it but they are they're part of the larger community and uh you know I saw larger community and uh you know I saw larger community and uh you know I saw that happen in South Africa I was in I that happen in South Africa I was in I that happen in South Africa I was in I was there during the time of apartheid was there during the time of apartheid was there during the time of apartheid yeah and you know it looked like there yeah and you know it looked like there yeah and you know it looked like there was going to be race war in in southern was going to be race war in in southern was going to be race war in in southern Africa for Generations I mean everyone

Africa for Generations I mean everyone Africa for Generations I mean everyone and and and there and the uh and I was and and and there and the uh and I was and and and there and the uh and I was there and and I watched over five years there and and I watched over five years there and and I watched over five years as that situation was as that situation was as that situation was transformed it was transformed it was transformed it was transformed by the engagement of the transformed by the engagement of the transformed by the engagement of the third side starting often with the third side starting often with the third side starting often with the church actually you know it was church actually you know it was church actually you know it was interesting church leaders the people of interesting church leaders the people of interesting church leaders the people of Faith said there's got to be a better Faith said there's got to be a better Faith said there's got to be a better way there's got to be you know look at way there's got to be you know look at way there's got to be you know look at the Bible and so on and and the business the Bible and so on and and the business the Bible and so on and and the business Community also said you know this can't Community also said you know this can't Community also said you know this can't go on this is terrible for for business go on this is terrible for for business go on this is terrible for for business we can't whatever it is because we've we can't whatever it is because we've we can't whatever it is because we've got all these sanctions and we can't got all these sanctions and we can't got all these sanctions and we can't work here so the the people of work here so the the people of work here so the the people of Faith The Business Leaders created a Faith The Business Leaders created a Faith The Business Leaders created a third side where they brought together third side where they brought together third side where they brought together the the the the government leaders the the the the the government leaders the the the the the government leaders the white nationalists the and the black white nationalists the and the black white nationalists the and the black nationalists together you know people nationalists together you know people nationalists together you know people like Mandela they brought them together like Mandela they brought them together like Mandela they brought them together and created a like a like a container ER and created a like a like a container ER and created a like a like a container ER like a space within which let's find a like a space within which let's find a like a space within which let's find a way to go behind the positions for what way to go behind the positions for what way to go behind the positions for what are the real interests here long-term are the real interests here long-term are the real interests here long-term economic well-being longterm safety economic well-being longterm safety economic well-being longterm safety dignity for everybody you know uh and dignity for everybody you know uh and dignity for everybody you know uh and and I saw a remarkable political and I saw a remarkable political and I saw a remarkable political transformation of that conflict in that transformation of that conflict in that transformation of that conflict in that seemed almost impossible to everyone and seemed almost impossible to everyone and seemed almost impossible to everyone and this is the key thing is that you take a this is the key thing is that you take a this is the key thing is that you take a leader like Nelson leader like Nelson leader like Nelson Mandela he'd been in jail for 27 years

Mandela he'd been in jail for 27 years Mandela he'd been in jail for 27 years what did he do he was very reactive he what did he do he was very reactive he what did he do he was very reactive he was kind of a boxer he learned in jail was kind of a boxer he learned in jail was kind of a boxer he learned in jail to go to the balcony he learned to to go to the balcony he learned to to go to the balcony he learned to meditate he said it's so important to meditate he said it's so important to meditate he said it's so important to observe yourself he then learned the observe yourself he then learned the observe yourself he then learned the language of his adversaries of his language of his adversaries of his language of his adversaries of his enemies yeah he studied afer khans he enemies yeah he studied afer khans he enemies yeah he studied afer khans he studied Africans he studied their studied Africans he studied their studied Africans he studied their history so he could speak to them in history so he could speak to them in history so he could speak to them in their language he he he helped build their language he he he helped build their language he he he helped build that golden bridge and he was a a third that golden bridge and he was a a third that golden bridge and he was a a third side leader he he was a leader for his side leader he he was a leader for his side leader he he was a leader for his own side but he always said I'm fighting own side but he always said I'm fighting own side but he always said I'm fighting not just for the freedom of the blacks not just for the freedom of the blacks not just for the freedom of the blacks I'm fighting for the freedom of the I'm fighting for the freedom of the I'm fighting for the freedom of the whites too I'm fighting for the freedom whites too I'm fighting for the freedom whites too I'm fighting for the freedom of everyone and that's what's needed is of everyone and that's what's needed is of everyone and that's what's needed is balcony Bridge third side that's what he balcony Bridge third side that's what he balcony Bridge third side that's what he so eloquently articulately demonstrated so eloquently articulately demonstrated so eloquently articulately demonstrated with his life and his with his life and his with his life and his leadership well I'd love to go through leadership well I'd love to go through leadership well I'd love to go through and I want to I want to open up I want and I want to I want to open up I want and I want to I want to open up I want to zoom out again before we wrap up but to zoom out again before we wrap up but to zoom out again before we wrap up but if you you've got lots of time today if you you've got lots of time today if you you've got lots of time today which I'm so thankful for I want to go which I'm so thankful for I want to go which I'm so thankful for I want to go through some real world scenarios so you through some real world scenarios so you through some real world scenarios so you know most of us are probably not getting know most of us are probably not getting know most of us are probably not getting called to the White House although called to the White House although called to the White House although you've been there for 45 years now on a you've been there for 45 years now on a you've been there for 45 years now on a regular basis um but we are leading regular basis um but we are leading regular basis um but we are leading organizations and I want to pick a case organizations and I want to pick a case organizations and I want to pick a case so we'll talk about staff conflict but I so we'll talk about staff conflict but I so we'll talk about staff conflict but I want to start with congregational want to start with congregational want to start with congregational conflict so you know you don't even need conflict so you know you don't even need conflict so you know you don't even need a pandemic to have congregational a pandemic to have congregational a pandemic to have congregational conflict I remember when I was starting conflict I remember when I was starting conflict I remember when I was starting out the churches very small dying I came out the churches very small dying I came out the churches very small dying I came in 30-year-old upstart I'm like all in 30-year-old upstart I'm like all in 30-year-old upstart I'm like all right let's go reach the community and

right let's go reach the community and right let's go reach the community and let's change everything change the let's change everything change the let's change everything change the governance change the music change the governance change the music change the governance change the music change the preaching the style and quote modernized preaching the style and quote modernized preaching the style and quote modernized it and believe it or not not everybody it and believe it or not not everybody it and believe it or not not everybody stood up and applauded William there stood up and applauded William there stood up and applauded William there were people who were opposed to the were people who were opposed to the were people who were opposed to the change and this is still Rippling change and this is still Rippling change and this is still Rippling through the church today there are some through the church today there are some through the church today there are some leaders listening who are still fighting leaders listening who are still fighting leaders listening who are still fighting what we affectionately or not what we affectionately or not what we affectionately or not affectionately call the worship Wars in affectionately call the worship Wars in affectionately call the worship Wars in church you know traditional versus church you know traditional versus church you know traditional versus contemporary so uh for me that was a contemporary so uh for me that was a contemporary so uh for me that was a five-year blend but there was about at five-year blend but there was about at five-year blend but there was about at any given time 10 to 25% of people who any given time 10 to 25% of people who any given time 10 to 25% of people who are upset in our church and um I would are upset in our church and um I would are upset in our church and um I would love for you to just walk through some love for you to just walk through some love for you to just walk through some of the principles positions not interest of the principles positions not interest of the principles positions not interest and I I'll I'll give the spoiler alert and I I'll I'll give the spoiler alert and I I'll I'll give the spoiler alert away what so many people tried I didn't away what so many people tried I didn't away what so many people tried I didn't do that because I just saw it never end do that because I just saw it never end do that because I just saw it never end in success is they say you know what in success is they say you know what in success is they say you know what we'll do we'll compromise so we'll have we'll do we'll compromise so we'll have we'll do we'll compromise so we'll have a traditional service and a Contemporary a traditional service and a Contemporary a traditional service and a Contemporary Service we'll have um some songs that Service we'll have um some songs that Service we'll have um some songs that are newer some songs that are older are newer some songs that are older are newer some songs that are older we'll do on guitar we'll do some you we'll do on guitar we'll do some you we'll do on guitar we'll do some you know that's almost gone in a lot of know that's almost gone in a lot of know that's almost gone in a lot of churches but I know that there are churches but I know that there are churches but I know that there are thousands of listeners listening now who thousands of listeners listening now who thousands of listeners listening now who are still fighting that battle so it's are still fighting that battle so it's are still fighting that battle so it's something we a lot of listeners are something we a lot of listeners are something we a lot of listeners are familiar with how do you handle that familiar with how do you handle that familiar with how do you handle that using your principles right well using your principles right well using your principles right well actually let me Begin by just giving a actually let me Begin by just giving a actually let me Begin by just giving a story from uh actually comes from story from uh actually comes from story from uh actually comes from getting yes but it comes from a woman getting yes but it comes from a woman getting yes but it comes from a woman whom Peter derer once called the mother whom Peter derer once called the mother whom Peter derer once called the mother of modern management Mary Parker fall of modern management Mary Parker fall of modern management Mary Parker fall sure she was once in a library the sure she was once in a library the sure she was once in a library the University Library I think it was a University Library I think it was a University Library I think it was a Harvard Library there were two students

Harvard Library there were two students Harvard Library there were two students quarreling and one wanted the window quarreling and one wanted the window quarreling and one wanted the window open the other wanted the window closed open the other wanted the window closed open the other wanted the window closed they got into a big quarrel about it they got into a big quarrel about it they got into a big quarrel about it bothered everyone in the library so bothered everyone in the library so bothered everyone in the library so final librarian comes over she ask the final librarian comes over she ask the final librarian comes over she ask the first one why do you want the window first one why do you want the window first one why do you want the window open says I want some fresh air so she open says I want some fresh air so she open says I want some fresh air so she goes to the other one why do you want goes to the other one why do you want goes to the other one why do you want the window closed he says well the draft the window closed he says well the draft the window closed he says well the draft is blowing my papers around so then she is blowing my papers around so then she is blowing my papers around so then she says how do we get you fresh air without says how do we get you fresh air without says how do we get you fresh air without you a draft and they think about it for you a draft and they think about it for you a draft and they think about it for a moment one says I've got an idea and a moment one says I've got an idea and a moment one says I've got an idea and he goes into the room next door and he goes into the room next door and he goes into the room next door and opens a window there thereby providing opens a window there thereby providing opens a window there thereby providing fresh air for the first person without a fresh air for the first person without a fresh air for the first person without a draft for the second now think about draft for the second now think about draft for the second now think about that simple situation for a moment and that simple situation for a moment and that simple situation for a moment and apply it to your question which apply it to your question which apply it to your question which is you know what you find successful is you know what you find successful is you know what you find successful negotiators doing is going behind the negotiators doing is going behind the negotiators doing is going behind the positions open window closed window the positions open window closed window the positions open window closed window the librarian asks the magical question why librarian asks the magical question why librarian asks the magical question why why is it you want that what's really why is it you want that what's really why is it you want that what's really going on fresher no draft and then going on fresher no draft and then going on fresher no draft and then they're able to up with the you know they're able to up with the you know they're able to up with the you know people are able to come up with the people are able to come up with the people are able to come up with the equivalent of an open window in the Next equivalent of an open window in the Next equivalent of an open window in the Next Room note that it's not a split the Room note that it's not a split the Room note that it's not a split the difference compromise no half open difference compromise no half open difference compromise no half open window in this case would have provided window in this case would have provided window in this case would have provided too much draft and not enough fresh air too much draft and not enough fresh air too much draft and not enough fresh air it's a creative solution that actually it's a creative solution that actually it's a creative solution that actually meets the interest of both sides and meets the interest of both sides and meets the interest of both sides and that's what we're looking for those days that's what we're looking for those days that's what we're looking for those days is those these days is those open is those these days is those open is those these days is those open windows in the Next Room and what it windows in the Next Room and what it windows in the Next Room and what it what what what's the essential thing is what what what's the essential thing is what what what's the essential thing is it's the ability to um it's the ability it's the ability to um it's the ability it's the ability to um it's the ability to probe to listen because it's you know

to probe to listen because it's you know to probe to listen because it's you know you know what do you do with those 10 or you know what do you do with those 10 or you know what do you do with those 10 or 20% of the people if you listen to 20% of the people if you listen to 20% of the people if you listen to people even if they don't get what they people even if they don't get what they people even if they don't get what they want if they feel heard if they feel want if they feel heard if they feel want if they feel heard if they feel seen if they don't feel excluded if they seen if they don't feel excluded if they seen if they don't feel excluded if they don't feel left don't feel left don't feel left behind that's they can they can adapt behind that's they can they can adapt behind that's they can they can adapt they can start to change every and they can start to change every and they can start to change every and people change at different rates and people change at different rates and people change at different rates and everyone changes but so sometimes you everyone changes but so sometimes you everyone changes but so sometimes you you people people are going no we're you people people are going no we're you people people are going no we're going to change right away and right now going to change right away and right now going to change right away and right now it's too much people freeze up they shut it's too much people freeze up they shut it's too much people freeze up they shut down they go into opposition but if you down they go into opposition but if you down they go into opposition but if you listen to them I mean like for example I listen to them I mean like for example I listen to them I mean like for example I remember this with my my daughter was remember this with my my daughter was remember this with my my daughter was very young you know let's imagine you very young you know let's imagine you very young you know let's imagine you have a a small child who doesn't want to have a a small child who doesn't want to have a a small child who doesn't want to go to school and they take they they go to school and they take they they go to school and they take they they take a they take um they you know take a they take um they you know take a they take um they you know they'll they they'll you know you're they'll they they'll you know you're they'll they they'll you know you're trying to wake them up you're trying to trying to wake them up you're trying to trying to wake them up you're trying to get them to school and out the door and get them to school and out the door and get them to school and out the door and all that stuff and they're they're all that stuff and they're they're all that stuff and they're they're making all this thing well if you try to making all this thing well if you try to making all this thing well if you try to force that then of course you know they force that then of course you know they force that then of course you know they just do that more but if you just slow just do that more but if you just slow just do that more but if you just slow down for a moment you go at their own down for a moment you go at their own down for a moment you go at their own pace just slow down meet them where they pace just slow down meet them where they pace just slow down meet them where they are meet the congregation where they are are meet the congregation where they are are meet the congregation where they are those people where they are stay with those people where they are stay with those people where they are stay with them for a while see them the best model them for a while see them the best model them for a while see them the best model I know in this situation is you want to I know in this situation is you want to I know in this situation is you want to go fast go slow start where they are go fast go slow start where they are go fast go slow start where they are people's minds don't change overnight people's minds don't change overnight people's minds don't change overnight start where they are really listen EX start where they are really listen EX start where they are really listen EX under have them explain what they loved under have them explain what they loved under have them explain what they loved about the things in the past what it about the things in the past what it about the things in the past what it brought for them their childhood brought for them their childhood brought for them their childhood memories everything their parents just memories everything their parents just memories everything their parents just really go deep into that then in a

really go deep into that then in a really go deep into that then in a different state then you might be able different state then you might be able different state then you might be able to kind of get them to go because that's to kind of get them to go because that's to kind of get them to go because that's the the key thing if you start slow you the the key thing if you start slow you the the key thing if you start slow you end up going faster but if you start end up going faster but if you start end up going faster but if you start fast people immediately put on the fast people immediately put on the fast people immediately put on the brakes and and you you got a real brakes and and you you got a real brakes and and you you got a real conflict on your head I should have had conflict on your head I should have had conflict on your head I should have had you on speed dial in those early years you on speed dial in those early years you on speed dial in those early years because I was a bit of a bull in a china because I was a bit of a bull in a china because I was a bit of a bull in a china shop but I did I did slow down I would shop but I did I did slow down I would shop but I did I did slow down I would say you know it's interesting to revisit say you know it's interesting to revisit say you know it's interesting to revisit this now 25 years this now 25 years this now 25 years later I would say probably 70 like later I would say probably 70 like later I would say probably 70 like everybody I have this Theory everybody everybody I have this Theory everybody everybody I have this Theory everybody in your church right now likes it the in your church right now likes it the in your church right now likes it the way it is because if they didn't like it way it is because if they didn't like it way it is because if they didn't like it the way it was they wouldn't be there the way it was they wouldn't be there the way it was they wouldn't be there it's a it's a it's a voluntary choice right oh I like this I voluntary choice right oh I like this I voluntary choice right oh I like this I like this restaurant the way it is I like this restaurant the way it is I like this restaurant the way it is I like what's on the menu I I don't need like what's on the menu I I don't need like what's on the menu I I don't need it to change all right so everybody in it to change all right so everybody in it to change all right so everybody in your church likes it the way it is right your church likes it the way it is right your church likes it the way it is right now otherwise they wouldn't be there and now otherwise they wouldn't be there and now otherwise they wouldn't be there and the problem was that there were like six the problem was that there were like six the problem was that there were like six people 15 people 20 people left at these people 15 people 20 people left at these people 15 people 20 people left at these three little churches I started with and three little churches I started with and three little churches I started with and they kind of knew the writing was on the they kind of knew the writing was on the they kind of knew the writing was on the wall but I did spend a lot of time I wall but I did spend a lot of time I wall but I did spend a lot of time I think initially if it was like how many think initially if it was like how many think initially if it was like how many people are in favor of like totally people are in favor of like totally people are in favor of like totally different music totally different this different music totally different this different music totally different this everybody 90% would have said thumbs everybody 90% would have said thumbs everybody 90% would have said thumbs down but I listened to them and I said down but I listened to them and I said down but I listened to them and I said how many of you are interested in how many of you are interested in how many of you are interested in reaching your children and when I got reaching your children and when I got reaching your children and when I got Beyond positions to interests and what Beyond positions to interests and what Beyond positions to interests and what about your grandkids like could together about your grandkids like could together about your grandkids like could together could we build a church that your could we build a church that your could we build a church that your children and grandchildren would love to children and grandchildren would love to children and grandchildren would love to attend well if that's the case then what attend well if that's the case then what attend well if that's the case then what would it require yeah probably some

would it require yeah probably some would it require yeah probably some change along the way and when it got change along the way and when it got change along the way and when it got really intense you know and we were really intense you know and we were really intense you know and we were selling the buildings and moving to an selling the buildings and moving to an selling the buildings and moving to an elementary school and amalgamating the elementary school and amalgamating the elementary school and amalgamating the churches and we'd had quite a bit of churches and we'd had quite a bit of churches and we'd had quite a bit of growth and already some change underway growth and already some change underway growth and already some change underway William uh there was one member in William uh there was one member in William uh there was one member in particular he's not with us anymore I particular he's not with us anymore I particular he's not with us anymore I think I can use his name his name was think I can use his name his name was think I can use his name his name was Hugh and I went to see Hugh and he was Hugh and I went to see Hugh and he was Hugh and I went to see Hugh and he was just opposed to everything and Hugh was just opposed to everything and Hugh was just opposed to everything and Hugh was in his late 7s and I could see I'm not in his late 7s and I could see I'm not in his late 7s and I could see I'm not I'm not going to win this one and I said I'm not going to win this one and I said I'm not going to win this one and I said you know what you know what the good you know what you know what the good you know what you know what the good news is news is news is Hugh there's 20 other churches within a Hugh there's 20 other churches within a Hugh there's 20 other churches within a 10-minute 20 minute drive of here 30 10-minute 20 minute drive of here 30 10-minute 20 minute drive of here 30 minute drive of here that do Church minute drive of here that do Church minute drive of here that do Church exactly the way you want you should go exactly the way you want you should go exactly the way you want you should go make yourself at home there like you'll make yourself at home there like you'll make yourself at home there like you'll love it and he goes you know what I love it and he goes you know what I love it and he goes you know what I think I'm going to do that I'm like yeah think I'm going to do that I'm like yeah think I'm going to do that I'm like yeah that's okay you go with my blessing man that's okay you go with my blessing man that's okay you go with my blessing man like enjoy it and he died a few years like enjoy it and he died a few years like enjoy it and he died a few years later and they did his funeral just the later and they did his funeral just the later and they did his funeral just the way they wanted him to do his funeral he way they wanted him to do his funeral he way they wanted him to do his funeral he got to sing the songs he wanted but at got to sing the songs he wanted but at got to sing the songs he wanted but at the end about 90% of the people came the end about 90% of the people came the end about 90% of the people came with us which was which was great anyway with us which was which was great anyway with us which was which was great anyway any thoughts on that I mean well yeah any thoughts on that I mean well yeah any thoughts on that I mean well yeah for sure for sure for sure um that's the that's the power of going um that's the that's the power of going um that's the that's the power of going to the balcony and looking at your batna to the balcony and looking at your batna to the balcony and looking at your batna his batna his his best alternative to batna his his best alternative to negotiate agreement was to go to another negotiate agreement was to go to another negotiate agreement was to go to another church you helped him see that he had a church you helped him see that he had a church you helped him see that he had a batna there and his Bat was actually batna there and his Bat was actually batna there and his Bat was actually better than any agreement he could make better than any agreement he could make better than any agreement he could make with you and so the purpose of with you and so the purpose of with you and so the purpose of negotiation this is the key thing Carrie negotiation this is the key thing Carrie negotiation this is the key thing Carrie is the purpose of negotiation is always is the purpose of negotiation is always is the purpose of negotiation is always to reach agreement the purpose of

to reach agreement the purpose of to reach agreement the purpose of negotiation is to satisfy your interest negotiation is to satisfy your interest negotiation is to satisfy your interest he had an interest in staying the same he had an interest in staying the same he had an interest in staying the same yeah you had an interest in doing things yeah you had an interest in doing things yeah you had an interest in doing things differently so a perfect that was a differently so a perfect that was a differently so a perfect that was a perfectly successful negotiation because perfectly successful negotiation because perfectly successful negotiation because he went off exercised his batner with he went off exercised his batner with he went off exercised his batner with your blessing and it was a consensual it your blessing and it was a consensual it your blessing and it was a consensual it was you know you both wish each other was you know you both wish each other was you know you both wish each other well and you go off well and you go off well and you go off that that's that's a success that to me that that's that's a success that to me that that's that's a success that to me is a successful negotiation you didn't is a successful negotiation you didn't is a successful negotiation you didn't you didn't have to reach agreement on you didn't have to reach agreement on you didn't have to reach agreement on how how the sessions are no you agree to how how the sessions are no you agree to how how the sessions are no you agree to disagree yeah we did I'd never thought disagree yeah we did I'd never thought disagree yeah we did I'd never thought of that as a batner but you're right of that as a batner but you're right of that as a batner but you're right that's exactly what it was and the good that's exactly what it was and the good that's exactly what it was and the good news is you know it's not like a nuclear news is you know it's not like a nuclear news is you know it's not like a nuclear negotiation where oh the future of the negotiation where oh the future of the negotiation where oh the future of the world is here it's like there's 10 other world is here it's like there's 10 other world is here it's like there's 10 other churches just go to one of them they'll churches just go to one of them they'll churches just go to one of them they'll they'll welcome you there and we'll be they'll welcome you there and we'll be they'll welcome you there and we'll be and now you know it it turned out to be and now you know it it turned out to be and now you know it it turned out to be quite successful our biggest challenge quite successful our biggest challenge quite successful our biggest challenge is space we're always out a room I love is space we're always out a room I love is space we're always out a room I love that problem that's a great problem so that problem that's a great problem so that problem that's a great problem so that that makes me feel good about about that that makes me feel good about about that that makes me feel good about about those early conversations another common those early conversations another common those early conversations another common issue that comes up with so many leaders issue that comes up with so many leaders issue that comes up with so many leaders I get DMS on this all the time and I I get DMS on this all the time and I I get DMS on this all the time and I want to give you specific there's high want to give you specific there's high want to give you specific there's high conflict staff where you know you got conflict staff where you know you got conflict staff where you know you got two driven leaders who are clashing that two driven leaders who are clashing that two driven leaders who are clashing that happens once in a while but you know happens once in a while but you know happens once in a while but you know what happens a lot in churches because what happens a lot in churches because what happens a lot in churches because pastors have good Hearts we hire people pastors have good Hearts we hire people pastors have good Hearts we hire people we like we hire people we enjoy but we like we hire people we enjoy but we like we hire people we enjoy but they're not very good performers or the they're not very good performers or the they're not very good performers or the new leader comes in you know there's a new leader comes in you know there's a new leader comes in you know there's a big generational shift going on the big generational shift going on the big generational shift going on the boomers are moving out Millennials are boomers are moving out Millennials are boomers are moving out Millennials are moving in and you've got highly paid

moving in and you've got highly paid moving in and you've got highly paid staff who really haven't contributed staff who really haven't contributed staff who really haven't contributed much and maybe don't fit the new mold much and maybe don't fit the new mold much and maybe don't fit the new mold and then the DM inevitably comes to me I and then the DM inevitably comes to me I and then the DM inevitably comes to me I know what I need to do I need to let know what I need to do I need to let know what I need to do I need to let like two people go or I got to let this like two people go or I got to let this like two people go or I got to let this person go they're just not working out person go they're just not working out person go they're just not working out what do I do how do I do it would you what do I do how do I do it would you what do I do how do I do it would you would you give us your take on that would you give us your take on that would you give us your take on that difficult situ and these are difficult situ and these are difficult situ and these are good-hearted people they've not no moral good-hearted people they've not no moral good-hearted people they've not no moral breach they're not you know haven't done breach they're not you know haven't done breach they're not you know haven't done anything illegal they're just like not anything illegal they're just like not anything illegal they're just like not very good team they're just not very very good team they're just not very very good team they're just not very good at what they do and it's time to good at what they do and it's time to good at what they do and it's time to move them off of staff so what do you do move them off of staff so what do you do move them off of staff so what do you do in a situation like that that's hard in a situation like that that's hard in a situation like that that's hard first acknowledge it's hard go the first acknowledge it's hard go the first acknowledge it's hard go the balcony prepare prepare balcony prepare prepare balcony prepare prepare prepare yeah uh you know try and prepare yeah uh you know try and prepare yeah uh you know try and understand what your interest does which understand what your interest does which understand what your interest does which is is is you have to give what I would call I you have to give what I would call I you have to give what I would call I wrote a book about this called uh the wrote a book about this called uh the wrote a book about this called uh the power of a positive power of a positive power of a positive no Yep this Cas got it oh no I got no Yep this Cas got it oh no I got no Yep this Cas got it oh no I got getting past no here the next one getting past no here the next one getting past no here the next one was so the power of positive no was was so the power of positive no was was so the power of positive no was precisely about the situation precisely about the situation precisely about the situation is uh the power of positive not takes is uh the power of positive not takes is uh the power of positive not takes has three parts to it it's a yes has three parts to it it's a yes has three parts to it it's a yes followed by a no followed by a yes it's followed by a no followed by a yes it's followed by a no followed by a yes it's a sandwich or the no in between two yes a sandwich or the no in between two yes a sandwich or the no in between two yes we hate to say no pastors I'm sure we hate to say no pastors I'm sure we hate to say no pastors I'm sure because you you want to please people because you you want to please people because you you want to please people you want to keep people happy you don't you want to keep people happy you don't you want to keep people happy you don't like to say no people don't like to hear like to say no people don't like to hear like to say no people don't like to hear the word no from you right so we we tend

the word no from you right so we we tend the word no from you right so we we tend to be no avoidant but so this is to be no avoidant but so this is to be no avoidant but so this is why it's like we have a yes arm but we why it's like we have a yes arm but we why it's like we have a yes arm but we also need to have a no arm right no yes also need to have a no arm right no yes also need to have a no arm right no yes you you you know uh you know yes and no we need both know uh you know yes and no we need both know uh you know yes and no we need both uh we need we need the yeses to reach uh we need we need the yeses to reach uh we need we need the yeses to reach peace and agreement we need the no to peace and agreement we need the no to peace and agreement we need the no to kind of get standards and and and and kind of get standards and and and and kind of get standards and and and and move no is the word of strategy it's move no is the word of strategy it's move no is the word of strategy it's like the way to get to a strategy to be like the way to get to a strategy to be like the way to get to a strategy to be focused you got to say no to a lot of focused you got to say no to a lot of focused you got to say no to a lot of other things right so in this case you other things right so in this case you other things right so in this case you may be faced with having to say no to may be faced with having to say no to may be faced with having to say no to these employees who've been there for a these employees who've been there for a these employees who've been there for a long time and whatever so a positive no long time and whatever so a positive no long time and whatever so a positive no begins with a yes and that yes is both begins with a yes and that yes is both begins with a yes and that yes is both the respect the respect the respect you know that to really respect and you know that to really respect and you know that to really respect and honor them and acknowledge everything honor them and acknowledge everything honor them and acknowledge everything that they've contributed okay that's that they've contributed okay that's that they've contributed okay that's okay you might get that but the yes okay you might get that but the yes okay you might get that but the yes fundamentally is to what's most fundamentally is to what's most fundamentally is to what's most important right now the the church is important right now the the church is important right now the the church is moving in a certain direction there's a moving in a certain direction there's a moving in a certain direction there's a there's there's a you're trying to there's there's a you're trying to there's there's a you're trying to satisfy and the needs of the satisfy and the needs of the satisfy and the needs of the congregation and so on and this person congregation and so on and this person congregation and so on and this person that's they're not they're not with the that's they're not they're not with the that's they're not they're not with the program so yeah it's not a so if if you program so yeah it's not a so if if you program so yeah it's not a so if if you just say you know like for the sake of just say you know like for the sake of just say you know like for the sake of the you know sake of what's going on the you know sake of what's going on the you know sake of what's going on here what our purposes and our pres here what our purposes and our pres here what our purposes and our pres present it's not a rejection of them present it's not a rejection of them present it's not a rejection of them personally the Yes means it's you're not personally the Yes means it's you're not personally the Yes means it's you're not rejecting them you're just saying yes to

rejecting them you're just saying yes to rejecting them you're just saying yes to it's change the new changes that need to it's change the new changes that need to it's change the new changes that need to be brought about that are necessary for be brought about that are necessary for be brought about that are necessary for this thing to grow so that yes so you this thing to grow so that yes so you this thing to grow so that yes so you gave them their chance you know then gave them their chance you know then gave them their chance you know then there's a no which is a matter of fact there's a no which is a matter of fact there's a no which is a matter of fact which is it just we're not going to be which is it just we're not going to be which is it just we're not going to be able to retain you because it's just able to retain you because it's just able to retain you because it's just there's the fit isn't there anymore there's the fit isn't there anymore there's the fit isn't there anymore right whatever it is but it's very calm right whatever it is but it's very calm right whatever it is but it's very calm matter of fact no it's not angry no it's matter of fact no it's not angry no it's matter of fact no it's not angry no it's not a weak no it's not a hesitant no not a weak no it's not a hesitant no not a weak no it's not a hesitant no it's just like because of this situation it's just like because of this situation it's just like because of this situation and whatever it is you know we're gonna and whatever it is you know we're gonna and whatever it is you know we're gonna the fit isn't there or whatever whatever the fit isn't there or whatever whatever the fit isn't there or whatever whatever the phrase that you come up with but the phrase that you come up with but the phrase that you come up with but it's like it's a it's a yes you're not it's like it's a it's a yes you're not it's like it's a it's a yes you're not saying no to them you're saying yes to saying no to them you're saying yes to saying no to them you're saying yes to something larger for the sake of the something larger for the sake of the something larger for the sake of the church or whatever it is I I'll give you church or whatever it is I I'll give you church or whatever it is I I'll give you an example of it an example of it an example of it um I had a fellow in my class once who um I had a fellow in my class once who um I had a fellow in my class once who had the job of um he was an internet had the job of um he was an internet had the job of um he was an internet company and and uh and then there was a company and and uh and then there was a company and and uh and then there was a a bust in the internet Market at one a bust in the internet Market at one a bust in the internet Market at one point and he had to lay off 500 point and he had to lay off 500 point and he had to lay off 500 engineers and most people like in this engineers and most people like in this engineers and most people like in this situation don't want to lay off situation don't want to lay off situation don't want to lay off something his name was jacqu and he something his name was jacqu and he something his name was jacqu and he lived in Seattle he was French though lived in Seattle he was French though lived in Seattle he was French though and uh and most people would just okay and uh and most people would just okay and uh and most people would just okay that's human resources let them deal that's human resources let them deal that's human resources let them deal with it you know and the human resources with it you know and the human resources with it you know and the human resources well let's put a pink slip on someone no well let's put a pink slip on someone no well let's put a pink slip on someone no he thought realized saying no is the he thought realized saying no is the he thought realized saying no is the most one of the most important decisions most one of the most important decisions most one of the most important decisions you can make just like any like saying you can make just like any like saying you can make just like any like saying any agreement he insisted on doing it any agreement he insisted on doing it any agreement he insisted on doing it personally he brought in every one of

personally he brought in every one of personally he brought in every one of those 500 he met with them face to those 500 he met with them face to those 500 he met with them face to face and he showed them respect he said face and he showed them respect he said face and he showed them respect he said look we really appreciate everything look we really appreciate everything look we really appreciate everything you're doing everything I'm doing but you're doing everything I'm doing but you're doing everything I'm doing but you know for the sake of the company you know for the sake of the company you know for the sake of the company that we built up here here you know that we built up here here you know that we built up here here you know we're not we can't pay you anymore we it we're not we can't pay you anymore we it we're not we can't pay you anymore we it doesn't work anymore so we're going to doesn't work anymore so we're going to doesn't work anymore so we're going to have to let you go that's the no and have to let you go that's the no and have to let you go that's the no and then there's a yes on the other side then there's a yes on the other side then there's a yes on the other side which was what can we do to help can we which was what can we do to help can we which was what can we do to help can we get you a referral can we get a get you a referral can we get a get you a referral can we get a reference can we find you like you did reference can we find you like you did reference can we find you like you did with the with the the person I refer to with the with the the person I refer to with the with the the person I refer to other other other churches how can we help you so it was churches how can we help you so it was churches how can we help you so it was it began with a yes A yes to everything it began with a yes A yes to everything it began with a yes A yes to everything that we built up here and whatever a yes that we built up here and whatever a yes that we built up here and whatever a yes to the higher good whatever it is and to the higher good whatever it is and to the higher good whatever it is and then no is it's not working out anymore then no is it's not working out anymore then no is it's not working out anymore here I can't pay you and there's a yes here I can't pay you and there's a yes here I can't pay you and there's a yes on the other side now what can we do on the other side now what can we do on the other side now what can we do it's the yes no yes well anyway jacqu it's the yes no yes well anyway jacqu it's the yes no yes well anyway jacqu did that a year later the money came did that a year later the money came did that a year later the money came into the internet Market again into the internet Market again into the internet Market again everyone's scrambling for the best everyone's scrambling for the best everyone's scrambling for the best talent guess who had first talent guess who had first talent guess who had first pick yeah why why because he had treated pick yeah why why because he had treated pick yeah why why because he had treated people with basic respect he had given people with basic respect he had given people with basic respect he had given them their their respect and and uh and them their their respect and and uh and them their their respect and and uh and he said to that to this day when he told he said to that to this day when he told he said to that to this day when he told the story he get stopped by people we the story he get stopped by people we the story he get stopped by people we hardly recognize on the streets of hardly recognize on the streets of hardly recognize on the streets of Seattle and they thanked him for the way Seattle and they thanked him for the way Seattle and they thanked him for the way in which they've been fired my goodness in which they've been fired my goodness in which they've been fired my goodness well and that's the other thing you know well and that's the other thing you know well and that's the other thing you know I've been in this area for 29 years same I've been in this area for 29 years same I've been in this area for 29 years same church and I say to my successor if he's church and I say to my successor if he's church and I say to my successor if he's upset because somebody is leaving and upset because somebody is leaving and upset because somebody is leaving and you know it's rare but it happens these you know it's rare but it happens these you know it's rare but it happens these days I'm like they'll probably be back

days I'm like they'll probably be back days I'm like they'll probably be back and that's one thing if you do it well and that's one thing if you do it well and that's one thing if you do it well they often come back which is which is they often come back which is which is they often come back which is which is fascinating and that's the key I just fascinating and that's the key I just fascinating and that's the key I just want to say one thing U car is the want to say one thing U car is the want to say one thing U car is the single the cheapest concession you can single the cheapest concession you can single the cheapest concession you can make in make in make in negotiation is to give the other person negotiation is to give the other person negotiation is to give the other person a little a little a little respect it costs you nothing and their respect it costs you nothing and their respect it costs you nothing and their dignity means everything to them uh so dignity means everything to them uh so dignity means everything to them uh so I've seen that so often I know you're I've seen that so often I know you're I've seen that so often I know you're dealing with a hostage taker you're dealing with a hostage taker you're dealing with a hostage taker you're dealing with a Criminal you're dealing dealing with a Criminal you're dealing dealing with a Criminal you're dealing with a I don't with a I don't with a I don't know show them it's it's we're talking know show them it's it's we're talking know show them it's it's we're talking about basic dignity that is every human about basic dignity that is every human about basic dignity that is every human being's innate you know gift you know being's innate you know gift you know being's innate you know gift you know gift from above from the Divine you know gift from above from the Divine you know gift from above from the Divine you know in that sense dignity is indivisible so in that sense dignity is indivisible so in that sense dignity is indivisible so if you can respect and that Mandela if you can respect and that Mandela if you can respect and that Mandela respected his adversaries you can respected his adversaries you can respected his adversaries you can respect people go so far and the easiest respect people go so far and the easiest respect people go so far and the easiest way to behaviorally show respect is to way to behaviorally show respect is to way to behaviorally show respect is to listen to really listen to them give listen to really listen to them give listen to really listen to them give them a hearing how does it feel to be them a hearing how does it feel to be them a hearing how does it feel to be let go after all these years you've let go after all these years you've let go after all these years you've devoted all this time give them all the devoted all this time give them all the devoted all this time give them all the time they need let them let them be time they need let them let them be time they need let them let them be heard be seen be acknowledged be heard be seen be acknowledged be heard be seen be acknowledged be respected it'll be a lot easier for them respected it'll be a lot easier for them respected it'll be a lot easier for them to accept something that's uncomfortable to accept something that's uncomfortable to accept something that's uncomfortable for them to accept I want to know how for them to accept I want to know how for them to accept I want to know how you prepare yourself to be in very you prepare yourself to be in very you prepare yourself to be in very emotionally charged situations you were

emotionally charged situations you were emotionally charged situations you were in South America there was a prime in South America there was a prime in South America there was a prime minister or a president I forget exactly minister or a president I forget exactly minister or a president I forget exactly because it's Brazil because it's Brazil because it's Brazil Colombia Venezuela Venezuela he yelled Colombia Venezuela Venezuela he yelled Colombia Venezuela Venezuela he yelled at you for 30 minutes like in a room at you for 30 minutes like in a room at you for 30 minutes like in a room just screamed at you for 30 minutes when just screamed at you for 30 minutes when just screamed at you for 30 minutes when you're or you know you're nervous like you're or you know you're nervous like you're or you know you're nervous like you're human you're you're going in the you're human you're you're going in the you're human you're you're going in the Oval Office to advise the president of Oval Office to advise the president of Oval Office to advise the president of the United States or you're negotiating the United States or you're negotiating the United States or you're negotiating with coal miners or who are who are with coal miners or who are who are with coal miners or who are who are angry and ready to kill you right the angry and ready to kill you right the angry and ready to kill you right the stories you tell are just incredible stories you tell are just incredible stories you tell are just incredible what do you do because I know so many what do you do because I know so many what do you do because I know so many leaders who are just like I'm not leaders who are just like I'm not leaders who are just like I'm not sleeping at night I don't know they get sleeping at night I don't know they get sleeping at night I don't know they get nervous they they don't know how to and nervous they they don't know how to and nervous they they don't know how to and it's hard for me too still to regulate it's hard for me too still to regulate it's hard for me too still to regulate my emotions in a Charged situation what my emotions in a Charged situation what my emotions in a Charged situation what are some tips well it's hard for anyone are some tips well it's hard for anyone are some tips well it's hard for anyone it's hard for me too I just want to say it's hard for me too I just want to say it's hard for me too I just want to say that it doesn't get easier okay that's that it doesn't get easier okay that's that it doesn't get easier okay that's good to know no no no it's it's just I good to know no no no it's it's just I good to know no no no it's it's just I mean yes and we're we're we're we're mean yes and we're we're we're we're mean yes and we're we're we're we're lifelong Learners this is lifelong lifelong Learners this is lifelong lifelong Learners this is lifelong learning yeah yeah you know you know learning yeah yeah you know you know learning yeah yeah you know you know like listening you know you think you like listening you know you think you like listening you know you think you got listening down and then you come got listening down and then you come got listening down and then you come home and your daughter says Hey Dad home and your daughter says Hey Dad home and your daughter says Hey Dad you're not listening to me you know it's you're not listening to me you know it's you're not listening to me you know it's it's humbling and it and it's great it's it's humbling and it and it's great it's it's humbling and it and it's great it's they're our best teachers so yeah um they're our best teachers so yeah um they're our best teachers so yeah um that story was uh maybe time when I that story was uh maybe time when I that story was uh maybe time when I really really appreciated the the really really appreciated the the really really appreciated the the importance of the balcony is U president importance of the balcony is U president importance of the balcony is U president former President Jimmy Carter had asked former President Jimmy Carter had asked former President Jimmy Carter had asked me to go down to Venezuela it was in a me to go down to Venezuela it was in a me to go down to Venezuela it was in a huge political crisis there were a huge political crisis there were a huge political crisis there were a million people on the streets of the million people on the streets of the million people on the streets of the Capitol karakas demanding the immediate

Capitol karakas demanding the immediate Capitol karakas demanding the immediate resignation of the president Ugo Chavez resignation of the president Ugo Chavez resignation of the president Ugo Chavez there were a million people on the there were a million people on the there were a million people on the streets supporting him there was streets supporting him there was streets supporting him there was violence breaking out International violence breaking out International violence breaking out International observers were worried this was going to observers were worried this was going to observers were worried this was going to break out into a civil war and uh so I break out into a civil war and uh so I break out into a civil war and uh so I had a number of meetings with Chavez but had a number of meetings with Chavez but had a number of meetings with Chavez but and one of them as you mentioned he and one of them as you mentioned he and one of them as you mentioned he liked to meet at night and so I showed liked to meet at night and so I showed liked to meet at night and so I showed up at 9 o'clock with my colleague up at 9 o'clock with my colleague up at 9 o'clock with my colleague Francisco at the presidential Palace and Francisco at the presidential Palace and Francisco at the presidential Palace and and 10 o'clock 11 o'clock midnight we're and 10 o'clock 11 o'clock midnight we're and 10 o'clock 11 o'clock midnight we're expecting to find the president alone in expecting to find the president alone in expecting to find the president alone in fact we find his entire cabinet AR raay fact we find his entire cabinet AR raay fact we find his entire cabinet AR raay behind him and he motions me to a chair behind him and he motions me to a chair behind him and he motions me to a chair and he says so Yuri says uh you've been and he says so Yuri says uh you've been and he says so Yuri says uh you've been uh talking to the people here what what uh talking to the people here what what uh talking to the people here what what do you think of the situation and I said do you think of the situation and I said do you think of the situation and I said well Mr President I've been talking to well Mr President I've been talking to well Mr President I've been talking to some of your government ministers here some of your government ministers here some of your government ministers here been talking to some of the leaders of been talking to some of the leaders of been talking to some of the leaders of the opposition and I believe they're the opposition and I believe they're the opposition and I believe they're making some making some making some progress said progress that wasn't the progress said progress that wasn't the progress said progress that wasn't the word he wanted to hear are you a fool word he wanted to hear are you a fool word he wanted to hear are you a fool are you are you are you naive are you not seeing the dirty naive are you not seeing the dirty naive are you not seeing the dirty tricks those traitors on the other side tricks those traitors on the other side tricks those traitors on the other side are up to and he leaned in very close to are up to and he leaned in very close to are up to and he leaned in very close to my face you know I could feel his hot my face you know I could feel his hot my face you know I could feel his hot breath and he shouted at me for breath and he shouted at me for breath and he shouted at me for approximately 30 minutes well you know approximately 30 minutes well you know approximately 30 minutes well you know you're you're in that situation imagine you're you're in that situation imagine you're you're in that situation imagine you're in the situation someone you're in the situation someone you're in the situation someone important to you is shouting at you like important to you is shouting at you like important to you is shouting at you like that what do you do you know in that that what do you do you know in that that what do you do you know in that moment uh I talked to a friend some moment uh I talked to a friend some moment uh I talked to a friend some months before who said you know he said months before who said you know he said months before who said you know he said well when you're in a tough situation well when you're in a tough situation well when you're in a tough situation pinch the palm of your hand I said Edan pinch the palm of your hand I said Edan pinch the palm of your hand I said Edan why would I pinch the palm of my hand he why would I pinch the palm of my hand he why would I pinch the palm of my hand he said because it'll give you a temporary

said because it'll give you a temporary said because it'll give you a temporary pain to keep you alert whatever reason I pain to keep you alert whatever reason I pain to keep you alert whatever reason I remember that was my technique for going remember that was my technique for going remember that was my technique for going to the balcony and it was like I I you to the balcony and it was like I I you to the balcony and it was like I I you first look inside and I could see okay I first look inside and I could see okay I first look inside and I could see okay I was feeling embarrassed I feel a host of was feeling embarrassed I feel a host of was feeling embarrassed I feel a host of emotions feeling all my work down the emotions feeling all my work down the emotions feeling all my work down the drain uh it's like you know you go drain uh it's like you know you go drain uh it's like you know you go through you you kind of you you see your through you you kind of you you see your through you you kind of you you see your life before flash before your eyes for a life before flash before your eyes for a life before flash before your eyes for a moment and and I could just feel the moment and and I could just feel the moment and and I could just feel the feelings of Sensations the emotions the feelings of Sensations the emotions the feelings of Sensations the emotions the sensations but by listening and paying sensations but by listening and paying sensations but by listening and paying attention by listening to that nervous attention by listening to that nervous attention by listening to that nervous system starts to calm down a little bit system starts to calm down a little bit system starts to calm down a little bit it feels seen you know you're kind of it feels seen you know you're kind of it feels seen you know you're kind of you you're a little bit detached it's you you're a little bit detached it's you you're a little bit detached it's not about suppressing your emotions it's not about suppressing your emotions it's not about suppressing your emotions it's about noticing them observing them and about noticing them observing them and about noticing them observing them and that gives you a little bit of distance that gives you a little bit of distance that gives you a little bit of distance and then I was able to ask myself the and then I was able to ask myself the and then I was able to ask myself the question which is the key qu balcony question which is the key qu balcony question which is the key qu balcony question what do you really want here question what do you really want here question what do you really want here well I'm trying to calm the situation well I'm trying to calm the situation well I'm trying to calm the situation down so then I said to myself well is it down so then I said to myself well is it down so then I said to myself well is it really this is all very quick but I'm is really this is all very quick but I'm is really this is all very quick but I'm is it really gonna do you any good if you it really gonna do you any good if you it really gonna do you any good if you get into an argument with the president get into an argument with the president get into an argument with the president of Venezuela is that really Advance of Venezuela is that really Advance of Venezuela is that really Advance things no okay so bite your tongue things no okay so bite your tongue things no okay so bite your tongue listen and so I listened and you know listen and so I listened and you know listen and so I listened and you know just just just with that little bit of like being on with that little bit of like being on with that little bit of like being on the balcony pinching the upon my hand I the balcony pinching the upon my hand I the balcony pinching the upon my hand I was able breathing it's able to listen was able breathing it's able to listen was able breathing it's able to listen just take it don't respond because I you just take it don't respond because I you just take it don't respond because I you know I was thinking defensively what I'm know I was thinking defensively what I'm know I was thinking defensively what I'm gonna say and this and that and no I'm gonna say and this and that and no I'm gonna say and this and that and no I'm not naive whatever but you got into an not naive whatever but you got into an not naive whatever but you got into an argument this President he he could give argument this President he he could give argument this President he he could give a speech that was seven hours long we a speech that was seven hours long we a speech that was seven hours long we would have been there all night you know would have been there all night you know would have been there all night you know but 30 minutes of not reacting I watched

but 30 minutes of not reacting I watched but 30 minutes of not reacting I watched him and he was going on and on on and him and he was going on and on on and him and he was going on and on on and then he slowly started to wind down a then he slowly started to wind down a then he slowly started to wind down a little bit I watched his body language little bit I watched his body language little bit I watched his body language his shoulders slowly sank and in a weary his shoulders slowly sank and in a weary his shoulders slowly sank and in a weary tone of voice he asked me he said so tone of voice he asked me he said so tone of voice he asked me he said so Yuri what should I do well that Bo carry is the faint sound do well that Bo carry is the faint sound of a human mind beginning to open that's of a human mind beginning to open that's of a human mind beginning to open that's your opportunity that's your chance your opportunity that's your chance your opportunity that's your chance because before that if I used reason because before that if I used reason because before that if I used reason tried to reason with someone who's an tried to reason with someone who's an tried to reason with someone who's an angry state of mind it's like banging angry state of mind it's like banging angry state of mind it's like banging your head against a wall but at that your head against a wall but at that your head against a wall but at that moment there was a little bit of an moment there was a little bit of an moment there was a little bit of an opening so I said you know Mr President opening so I said you know Mr President opening so I said you know Mr President it's was it's was it's was Christmas last year the festivities were Christmas last year the festivities were Christmas last year the festivities were canceled because of the conflict it canceled because of the conflict it canceled because of the conflict it looks like the same thing's going to looks like the same thing's going to looks like the same thing's going to happen this year why not give everyone a happen this year why not give everyone a happen this year why not give everyone a break a truce a Trea in Spanish you know break a truce a Trea in Spanish you know break a truce a Trea in Spanish you know why not like three weeks whatever in why not like three weeks whatever in why not like three weeks whatever in January maybe they'll be in a better January maybe they'll be in a better January maybe they'll be in a better mood to listen let them enjoy the mood to listen let them enjoy the mood to listen let them enjoy the holidays with their families you know holidays with their families you know holidays with their families you know the sacred holidays he said he looked at the sacred holidays he said he looked at the sacred holidays he said he looked at me for a moment he me for a moment he me for a moment he stopped said you know what that's an stopped said you know what that's an stopped said you know what that's an excellent idea I'm gonna propose that in excellent idea I'm gonna propose that in excellent idea I'm gonna propose that in my next speech and he collaps me on the my next speech and he collaps me on the my next speech and he collaps me on the back his mood had completely shifted and back his mood had completely shifted and back his mood had completely shifted and what I learned then and there was maybe what I learned then and there was maybe what I learned then and there was maybe the greatest power you have in the greatest power you have in the greatest power you have in negotiation is the power not to react negotiation is the power not to react negotiation is the power not to react it's to pause for a moment it's to go to it's to pause for a moment it's to go to it's to pause for a moment it's to go to the balcony it's to the balcony it's to the balcony it's to listen that story takes me back to a listen that story takes me back to a listen that story takes me back to a congregational meeting in the early days congregational meeting in the early days congregational meeting in the early days when we were looking at selling the when we were looking at selling the when we were looking at selling the buildings and we had to have a buildings and we had to have a buildings and we had to have a congregational meeting it was just congregational meeting it was just congregational meeting it was just church Constitution and I remember one

church Constitution and I remember one church Constitution and I remember one gentleman at the back just screamed at gentleman at the back just screamed at gentleman at the back just screamed at me for about what seemed like 10 minutes me for about what seemed like 10 minutes me for about what seemed like 10 minutes it's just yelling calling me all kinds it's just yelling calling me all kinds it's just yelling calling me all kinds of names and for whatever reason you of names and for whatever reason you of names and for whatever reason you know I'm 32 33 I'm just standing there know I'm 32 33 I'm just standing there know I'm 32 33 I'm just standing there at the front and I'm listening got my at the front and I'm listening got my at the front and I'm listening got my hands folded in front of me and I'm kind hands folded in front of me and I'm kind hands folded in front of me and I'm kind of nodding and for some reason I was of nodding and for some reason I was of nodding and for some reason I was very detached like you describe and at very detached like you describe and at very detached like you describe and at the end he finished and I said is there the end he finished and I said is there the end he finished and I said is there anything else no no thank anything else no no thank anything else no no thank you and that was it you and that was it you and that was it and afterwards I had so many people how and afterwards I had so many people how and afterwards I had so many people how did you keep it together I'm like well did you keep it together I'm like well did you keep it together I'm like well what was I going to win at like you what was I going to win at like you what was I going to win at like you don't win those conversations and don't win those conversations and don't win those conversations and inevitably he came along with us he was inevitably he came along with us he was inevitably he came along with us he was quite happy at the end but he got that quite happy at the end but he got that quite happy at the end but he got that off his chest that's it Carrie that's off his chest that's it Carrie that's off his chest that's it Carrie that's absolutely it that's the secret right absolutely it that's the secret right absolutely it that's the secret right there I blown it too I blown it too I there I blown it too I blown it too I there I blown it too I blown it too I know me know me know me too not not reacting in that moment just too not not reacting in that moment just too not not reacting in that moment just listening asking him that magic question listening asking him that magic question listening asking him that magic question of is there anything else that's a of is there anything else that's a of is there anything else that's a surprise question that's the last thing surprise question that's the last thing surprise question that's the last thing someone expect is there anything else someone expect is there anything else someone expect is there anything else and just giving them more time gets it and just giving them more time gets it and just giving them more time gets it off his off his off his chest and then he's okay it's like it's chest and then he's okay it's like it's chest and then he's okay it's like it's gone it's gone um I have a theory and gone it's gone um I have a theory and gone it's gone um I have a theory and I'm willing to have you blow it to I'm willing to have you blow it to I'm willing to have you blow it to smithin that's fine but I've said this smithin that's fine but I've said this smithin that's fine but I've said this for years um and I'll I'll tell you what for years um and I'll I'll tell you what for years um and I'll I'll tell you what it is and I'll explain it a little bit it is and I'll explain it a little bit it is and I'll explain it a little bit and and I I tell church leaders and and I I tell church leaders and and I I tell church leaders sometimes 95% of the problems in the sometimes 95% of the problems in the sometimes 95% of the problems in the church have nothing to do with the church have nothing to do with the church have nothing to do with the church and what I mean by that is

church and what I mean by that is church and what I mean by that is somebody has a bad day their marriage is somebody has a bad day their marriage is somebody has a bad day their marriage is falling apart it's financially tough falling apart it's financially tough falling apart it's financially tough they've got a kid that they can't they've got a kid that they can't they've got a kid that they can't connect with uh their jobs on the line connect with uh their jobs on the line connect with uh their jobs on the line and the church is supposed to be a place and the church is supposed to be a place and the church is supposed to be a place of stability right even if it's a of stability right even if it's a of stability right even if it's a growing Dynamic modern type church it's growing Dynamic modern type church it's growing Dynamic modern type church it's supposed to be a place of stability and supposed to be a place of stability and supposed to be a place of stability and often what I've discovered is that often what I've discovered is that often what I've discovered is that people will take whatever is going on in people will take whatever is going on in people will take whatever is going on in their lives and they'll be really upset their lives and they'll be really upset their lives and they'll be really upset about so I just hate that song I don't about so I just hate that song I don't about so I just hate that song I don't know why you're doing that song Or that know why you're doing that song Or that know why you're doing that song Or that that message just completely missed and that message just completely missed and that message just completely missed and then when you really listen to them then when you really listen to them then when you really listen to them underneath that is a broken heart and underneath that is a broken heart and underneath that is a broken heart and yeah they maybe it was a bad song or yeah they maybe it was a bad song or yeah they maybe it was a bad song or maybe it was a bad message or whatever maybe it was a bad message or whatever maybe it was a bad message or whatever or somebody did something but if you or somebody did something but if you or somebody did something but if you really as you say listen and empathize really as you say listen and empathize really as you say listen and empathize you'll often discover there's a story you'll often discover there's a story you'll often discover there's a story beneath the story any thoughts on that beneath the story any thoughts on that beneath the story any thoughts on that at all at all at all William that's absolutely true that's William that's absolutely true that's William that's absolutely true that's been my experience uh Carrie wow exactly been my experience uh Carrie wow exactly been my experience uh Carrie wow exactly it it it uh often times when people get really uh often times when people get really uh often times when people get really angry it's got nothing to do with what angry it's got nothing to do with what angry it's got nothing to do with what seems to be the issue and then if you seems to be the issue and then if you seems to be the issue and then if you address the issue you're missing the address the issue you're missing the address the issue you're missing the point uh but because they'll be mad point uh but because they'll be mad point uh but because they'll be mad about another song Tomorrow you got it about another song Tomorrow you got it about another song Tomorrow you got it and if you just listen to them really and if you just listen to them really and if you just listen to them really people yearn in this world people don't people yearn in this world people don't people yearn in this world people don't feel heard they don't feel seen they feel heard they don't feel seen they feel heard they don't feel seen they don't feel appreciated they don't feel don't feel appreciated they don't feel don't feel appreciated they don't feel acknowledged they don't feel recognized acknowledged they don't feel recognized acknowledged they don't feel recognized I mean you know and and that's a basic

I mean you know and and that's a basic I mean you know and and that's a basic human need increase human need increase human need increase inly threatened in today's era where inly threatened in today's era where inly threatened in today's era where there's so much change happening so there's so much change happening so there's so much change happening so there's so many problems is this and there's so many problems is this and there's so many problems is this and that the other thing there's people are that the other thing there's people are that the other thing there's people are stressed out so just a little bit of stressed out so just a little bit of stressed out so just a little bit of compassion goes a long way the other compassion goes a long way the other compassion goes a long way the other thing I'll say I mean just deeply in thing I'll say I mean just deeply in thing I'll say I mean just deeply in these conflicts is we're learning more these conflicts is we're learning more these conflicts is we're learning more and more about and more about and more about trauma so many of these conflicts that trauma so many of these conflicts that trauma so many of these conflicts that we face today whether they're in small we face today whether they're in small we face today whether they're in small there at the bottom of it is there's you there at the bottom of it is there's you there at the bottom of it is there's you know there's trauma was this childhood know there's trauma was this childhood know there's trauma was this childhood trauma whether it's Collective trauma trauma whether it's Collective trauma trauma whether it's Collective trauma whether it's ancestral trauma whatever whether it's ancestral trauma whatever whether it's ancestral trauma whatever it is but it's a there there's it is but it's a there there's it is but it's a there there's um some part of them got frozen because um some part of them got frozen because um some part of them got frozen because there's just trauma is is just an there's just trauma is is just an there's just trauma is is just an intelligent response to the overwhelm of intelligent response to the overwhelm of intelligent response to the overwhelm of our nervous systems it's just like too our nervous systems it's just like too our nervous systems it's just like too much pain we can't we don't know how to much pain we can't we don't know how to much pain we can't we don't know how to deal with it and then we hold it within deal with it and then we hold it within deal with it and then we hold it within us and then at these trigger points it us and then at these trigger points it us and then at these trigger points it explodes but explodes but explodes but it had nothing to do with it but it but it had nothing to do with it but it but it had nothing to do with it but it but and the only thing that works with and the only thing that works with and the only thing that works with trauma is listening is compassion just trauma is listening is compassion just trauma is listening is compassion just kind kind kind of actually there's even some science of actually there's even some science of actually there's even some science about these days it just settles the about these days it just settles the about these days it just settles the nervous system a little bit so people nervous system a little bit so people nervous system a little bit so people can then like that gentleman who was can then like that gentleman who was can then like that gentleman who was yelling at you okay yeah fine i' now got yelling at you okay yeah fine i' now got yelling at you okay yeah fine i' now got my I was heard I was seen yeah that's my I was heard I was seen yeah that's my I was heard I was seen yeah that's what he he said I was heard I was seen what he he said I was heard I was seen what he he said I was heard I was seen and now I can accept

and now I can accept and now I can accept I don't know if you if you remember um I don't know if you if you remember um I don't know if you if you remember um there was a a distinguished uh Swiss there was a a distinguished uh Swiss there was a a distinguished uh Swiss psychiatrist Elizabeth Kubler Ross do psychiatrist Elizabeth Kubler Ross do psychiatrist Elizabeth Kubler Ross do you know and you know she had that you know and you know she had that you know and you know she had that stages of grief yeah stages of grief stages of grief yeah stages of grief stages of grief yeah stages of grief well that happens in any in negotiation well that happens in any in negotiation well that happens in any in negotiation often or is a church leader you're often or is a church leader you're often or is a church leader you're delivering bad news to people news that delivering bad news to people news that delivering bad news to people news that they don't want to hear it may not be they don't want to hear it may not be they don't want to hear it may not be you know the news that they're dying but you know the news that they're dying but you know the news that they're dying but it's just news that they don't want to it's just news that they don't want to it's just news that they don't want to hear they go through those same stages hear they go through those same stages hear they go through those same stages which are they avoid it for a while it's which are they avoid it for a while it's which are they avoid it for a while it's not going to happen they deny it not going to happen they deny it not going to happen they deny it actively will not happen then they go actively will not happen then they go actively will not happen then they go through anxiety what are you talking through anxiety what are you talking through anxiety what are you talking about then they go through anger and about then they go through anger and about then they go through anger and you're you know you're you're the one you're you know you're you're the one you're you know you're you're the one that they that they that they fire the that they that they that they fire the that they that they that they fire the anger at even though it's got you know anger at even though it's got you know anger at even though it's got you know it's not really about you and then but it's not really about you and then but it's not really about you and then but if they can go through their anger like if they can go through their anger like if they can go through their anger like that gentleman they go through that gentleman they go through that gentleman they go through depression sadness on the other side and depression sadness on the other side and depression sadness on the other side and then acceptance and now you can solve a then acceptance and now you can solve a then acceptance and now you can solve a problem just understand that people are problem just understand that people are problem just understand that people are like that we we we all we are all faced like that we we we all we are all faced like that we we we all we are all faced with a lot of things we don't want to with a lot of things we don't want to with a lot of things we don't want to hear your job is just to help them hear your job is just to help them hear your job is just to help them through that process it's not to fix through that process it's not to fix through that process it's not to fix it this is this is so good for my soul it this is this is so good for my soul it this is this is so good for my soul just to hear you sort of affirm that and just to hear you sort of affirm that and just to hear you sort of affirm that and and see that because it's always and see that because it's always and see that because it's always been suspected so I want to take that been suspected so I want to take that been suspected so I want to take that because we're in an election year as we because we're in an election year as we because we're in an election year as we record this I think a lot of people are record this I think a lot of people are record this I think a lot of people are quite nervous about what might happen quite nervous about what might happen quite nervous about what might happen this fall if you look at the 2020 this fall if you look at the 2020 this fall if you look at the 2020 election you look at masks no masks do election you look at masks no masks do election you look at masks no masks do you think that that 95% of the problems you think that that 95% of the problems you think that that 95% of the problems in the church have nothing do with the

in the church have nothing do with the in the church have nothing do with the church could also somewhat church could also somewhat church could also somewhat explain the extreme reactions we saw in explain the extreme reactions we saw in explain the extreme reactions we saw in culture and I wish the church was an culture and I wish the church was an culture and I wish the church was an exemption or not but it was probably exemption or not but it was probably exemption or not but it was probably Amplified in the church where literally Amplified in the church where literally Amplified in the church where literally most of the church leaders I know lost a most of the church leaders I know lost a most of the church leaders I know lost a third of their congregation just stormed third of their congregation just stormed third of their congregation just stormed out because they did too much they did out because they did too much they did out because they did too much they did too little it was too online it was not too little it was too online it was not too little it was too online it was not enough in person but do you think some enough in person but do you think some enough in person but do you think some of that might have been misdirected of that might have been misdirected of that might have been misdirected trauma anger trauma anger trauma anger whatever I do I Absolut okay can you say whatever I do I Absolut okay can you say whatever I do I Absolut okay can you say more about that well yeah it's just the more about that well yeah it's just the more about that well yeah it's just the stress levels are going up they just stress levels are going up they just stress levels are going up they just like people feel like their lives out of like people feel like their lives out of like people feel like their lives out of control and the pandemic was like Wow uh control and the pandemic was like Wow uh control and the pandemic was like Wow uh so if you just look at what human beings so if you just look at what human beings so if you just look at what human beings need you know we need some we need need you know we need some we need need you know we need some we need safety people are feeling increasingly safety people are feeling increasingly safety people are feeling increasingly unsafe not just physically unsafe unsafe not just physically unsafe unsafe not just physically unsafe psychologically emotionally spiritually psychologically emotionally spiritually psychologically emotionally spiritually unsafe even you know and and so if you just understand under and we want if you just understand under and we want um we also we there's a human need for um we also we there's a human need for um we also we there's a human need for recognition as I mentioned for being recognition as I mentioned for being recognition as I mentioned for being seen and when you're in a pandemic seen and when you're in a pandemic seen and when you're in a pandemic you're not being seen you're not being you're not being seen you're not being you're not being seen you're not being acknowledge you're almost like you're acknowledge you're almost like you're acknowledge you're almost like you're anonymous right so that need right then anonymous right so that need right then anonymous right so that need right then there's a need for autonomy which is a there's a need for autonomy which is a there's a need for autonomy which is a human need which is having a little bit human need which is having a little bit human need which is having a little bit of control over the things that really of control over the things that really of control over the things that really matter to you people feel like they're matter to you people feel like they're matter to you people feel like they're losing that so the church Church um can

losing that so the church Church um can losing that so the church Church um can be a place be a place be a place ideally you know even in these really ideally you know even in these really ideally you know even in these really tough tumultuous times this is why I tough tumultuous times this is why I tough tumultuous times this is why I wrote the book is we're not going to wrote the book is we're not going to wrote the book is we're not going to we're not going to end conflict um we're not going to end conflict um we're not going to end conflict um because we're we're Le we're going because we're we're Le we're going because we're we're Le we're going through turbulent tumultuous times through turbulent tumultuous times through turbulent tumultuous times there's even more conflict coming along there's even more conflict coming along there's even more conflict coming along our way but we can learn to transform it our way but we can learn to transform it our way but we can learn to transform it it doesn't have to be destructive it doesn't have to be destructive it doesn't have to be destructive doesn't have to be you know fighting doesn't have to be you know fighting doesn't have to be you know fighting each other and and and where everybody each other and and and where everybody each other and and and where everybody loses we can go to the balcony we can loses we can go to the balcony we can loses we can go to the balcony we can build those bridges instead of burning build those bridges instead of burning build those bridges instead of burning them we can go to the balcony instead of them we can go to the balcony instead of them we can go to the balcony instead of going to The Gutter and we can take the going to The Gutter and we can take the going to The Gutter and we can take the third side instead of just dividing third side instead of just dividing third side instead of just dividing everything into two sides and that to me everything into two sides and that to me everything into two sides and that to me is the role of a church leader is to be is the role of a church leader is to be is the role of a church leader is to be a third side I mean what what is God a third side I mean what what is God a third side I mean what what is God what is a church if not a third side you what is a church if not a third side you what is a church if not a third side you know hopefully right it's a third side know hopefully right it's a third side know hopefully right it's a third side it's the larger hole call people to it's the larger hole call people to it's the larger hole call people to remembrance and create remembrance and create remembrance and create spaces that become places of safety for spaces that become places of safety for spaces that become places of safety for people places where they feel seen and people places where they feel seen and people places where they feel seen and heard places of acknowledgement places heard places of acknowledgement places heard places of acknowledgement places where they feel they have a little bit where they feel they have a little bit where they feel they have a little bit of control in this you know it's like a of control in this you know it's like a of control in this you know it's like a a Noah's Arc in the time of flood you a Noah's Arc in the time of flood you a Noah's Arc in the time of flood you know it's like a place of like uh to be know it's like a place of like uh to be know it's like a place of like uh to be that and and it it requires us to have that and and it it requires us to have that and and it it requires us to have done that work ourselves have gone to done that work ourselves have gone to done that work ourselves have gone to the we can't help people go to the the we can't help people go to the the we can't help people go to the balcony unless we go to the balcony balcony unless we go to the balcony balcony unless we go to the balcony ourselves right if we're like vly a or ourselves right if we're like vly a or ourselves right if we're like vly a or side B we build Bridges and you know

side B we build Bridges and you know side B we build Bridges and you know it's like okay which side are you on I'm it's like okay which side are you on I'm it's like okay which side are you on I'm on the third side which is not the just on the third side which is not the just on the third side which is not the just the in between side I'm on the side of the in between side I'm on the side of the in between side I'm on the side of the whole that includes you and includes the whole that includes you and includes the whole that includes you and includes the other side includes everyone there's the other side includes everyone there's the other side includes everyone there's space here for everybody that's that's space here for everybody that's that's space here for everybody that's that's the message of Jesus after all it it is the message of Jesus after all it it is the message of Jesus after all it it is so a posture you could take then so a posture you could take then so a posture you could take then theoretically is hey we're a church theoretically is hey we're a church theoretically is hey we're a church where people don't all vote the same way where people don't all vote the same way where people don't all vote the same way we're a church where people have we're a church where people have we're a church where people have differing opinions you know in a time of differing opinions you know in a time of differing opinions you know in a time of a lockdown you know etc etc and and a lockdown you know etc etc and and a lockdown you know etc etc and and that's all right because it's not about that's all right because it's not about that's all right because it's not about this Kingdom it's about another kingdom this Kingdom it's about another kingdom this Kingdom it's about another kingdom and I just want you to know you're and I just want you to know you're and I just want you to know you're welcome here and we want to create the welcome here and we want to create the welcome here and we want to create the kind of place where uh maybe we disagree kind of place where uh maybe we disagree kind of place where uh maybe we disagree with each other but we find that what with each other but we find that what with each other but we find that what unites us is greater than what divides unites us is greater than what divides unites us is greater than what divides us would it would it be language like us would it would it be language like us would it would it be language like that that could be helpful very yeah that that could be helpful very yeah that that could be helpful very yeah that's it um no matter what divides us that's it um no matter what divides us that's it um no matter what divides us what unites us is far far greater yeah what unites us is far far greater yeah what unites us is far far greater yeah one more word about positions and one more word about positions and one more word about positions and interests because when we're talking interests because when we're talking interests because when we're talking about the 95% rule you know 95 5% of the about the 95% rule you know 95 5% of the about the 95% rule you know 95 5% of the conflict has nothing to do with people conflict has nothing to do with people conflict has nothing to do with people in the church I'm reminded of that big in the church I'm reminded of that big in the church I'm reminded of that big negotiation you did I think it was negotiation you did I think it was negotiation you did I think it was between two people who were two Business between two people who were two Business between two people who were two Business Leaders who were Waring over was it a Leaders who were Waring over was it a Leaders who were Waring over was it a supermarket chain or something and there supermarket chain or something and there supermarket chain or something and there was the guy in Brazil yeah and you know was the guy in Brazil yeah and you know was the guy in Brazil yeah and you know it was just it was an impass it was two it was just it was an impass it was two it was just it was an impass it was two people who were were going to fight to people who were were going to fight to people who were were going to fight to the death and the whole thing could the death and the whole thing could the death and the whole thing could could blow up and I I take it there were

could blow up and I I take it there were could blow up and I I take it there were hundreds of millions of dollars at stake hundreds of millions of dollars at stake hundreds of millions of dollars at stake and this gentleman was older too but he and this gentleman was older too but he and this gentleman was older too but he shouted liberado is that it Liberty yeah shouted liberado is that it Liberty yeah shouted liberado is that it Liberty yeah it C can you can you tell us some of it C can you can you tell us some of it C can you can you tell us some of that story because I thought that was so that story because I thought that was so that story because I thought that was so helpful William in what you discovered helpful William in what you discovered helpful William in what you discovered in that negotiation yeah it's uh it's in that negotiation yeah it's uh it's in that negotiation yeah it's uh it's really I learned so much from that really I learned so much from that really I learned so much from that negotiation his name was ailio he just negotiation his name was ailio he just negotiation his name was ailio he just passed away actually last month passed away actually last month passed away actually last month and um and this is about and um and this is about and um and this is about oh 11 11 year 12 years ago and it was a oh 11 11 year 12 years ago and it was a oh 11 11 year 12 years ago and it was a Battle Royal you know you know boardroom Battle Royal you know you know boardroom Battle Royal you know you know boardroom battle control over a company you know battle control over a company you know battle control over a company you know between and it was Latin America's between and it was Latin America's between and it was Latin America's largest retailer and and the financial largest retailer and and the financial largest retailer and and the financial times called it maybe the biggest times called it maybe the biggest times called it maybe the biggest cross-continental boardroom showdown in cross-continental boardroom showdown in cross-continental boardroom showdown in recent history because it was like you recent history because it was like you recent history because it was like you know it' gone on for two and a half know it' gone on for two and a half know it' gone on for two and a half years over control of this company years over control of this company years over control of this company between the guy who was my client who between the guy who was my client who between the guy who was my client who and friend who who help founded it with and friend who who help founded it with and friend who who help founded it with his father and the largest shareholder his father and the largest shareholder his father and the largest shareholder which was a French company a Frenchman which was a French company a Frenchman which was a French company a Frenchman and these two tycoons going at it using and these two tycoons going at it using and these two tycoons going at it using lawsuits arbitrations got into the Press lawsuits arbitrations got into the Press lawsuits arbitrations got into the Press character character character assassinations 150,000 employees with assassinations 150,000 employees with assassinations 150,000 employees with divided loyalties suffering not just for divided loyalties suffering not just for divided loyalties suffering not just for the parties but for their families and the parties but for their families and the parties but for their families and even you know the president of Brazil even you know the president of Brazil even you know the president of Brazil had to get on the phone with the had to get on the phone with the had to get on the phone with the president of France because it was

president of France because it was president of France because it was affecting their commercial relations and affecting their commercial relations and affecting their commercial relations and I was called in it seemed like an I was called in it seemed like an I was called in it seemed like an impossible mission and my my my friend impossible mission and my my my friend impossible mission and my my my friend ailio was going to be chairman for ailio was going to be chairman for ailio was going to be chairman for another seven years I was like another another seven years I was like another another seven years I was like another seven years of this and he he said to me seven years of this and he he said to me seven years of this and he he said to me you know looks it feels like you know you know looks it feels like you know you know looks it feels like you know this is my fate my to to the day I die this is my fate my to to the day I die this is my fate my to to the day I die I'm going to be fighting this so I met I'm going to be fighting this so I met I'm going to be fighting this so I met with him not in his office but in a of a with him not in his office but in a of a with him not in his office but in a of a balcony space in his home surrounded by balcony space in his home surrounded by balcony space in his home surrounded by his children he had a second family with his children he had a second family with his children he had a second family with young children and and uh I asked him young children and and uh I asked him young children and and uh I asked him you know my favorite balcony questions you know my favorite balcony questions you know my favorite balcony questions was tell me what do you want you know was tell me what do you want you know was tell me what do you want you know what you know that's the interest what you know that's the interest what you know that's the interest question right and he gave me he had the question right and he gave me he had the question right and he gave me he had the best answer you know very you know I best answer you know very you know I best answer you know very you know I want you know a huge sum of stock you want you know a huge sum of stock you want you know a huge sum of stock you know I want the elimination of the know I want the elimination of the know I want the elimination of the threee non-compete Clause I want the threee non-compete Clause I want the threee non-compete Clause I want the company headquarters I want the company company headquarters I want the company company headquarters I want the company sports team he had his list like a good sports team he had his list like a good sports team he had his list like a good intelligent businessman those were his intelligent businessman those were his intelligent businessman those were his positions so I said to positions so I said to positions so I said to himilo what do you really himilo what do you really himilo what do you really want and he said what do you mean I said want and he said what do you mean I said want and he said what do you mean I said well you're a man who seems to have well you're a man who seems to have well you're a man who seems to have everything in your life uh you know he's everything in your life uh you know he's everything in your life uh you know he's not poor everything in your life and not poor everything in your life and not poor everything in your life and whatever what do you really want most in whatever what do you really want most in whatever what do you really want most in your life right now right your life right now right your life right now right now that was a question he hadn't been now that was a question he hadn't been now that was a question he hadn't been asked before and thought about it and asked before and thought about it and asked before and thought about it and then he said to me liberi which in then he said to me liberi which in then he said to me liberi which in Portuguese means freedom I want my Portuguese means freedom I want my Portuguese means freedom I want my freedom and the way the tonality with

freedom and the way the tonality with freedom and the way the tonality with which he pronounced it I knew wow it's which he pronounced it I knew wow it's which he pronounced it I knew wow it's not just coming from his head it's not just coming from his head it's not just coming from his head it's coming from his heart you know coming coming from his heart you know coming coming from his heart you know coming from his soul he was a man of Faith deep from his soul he was a man of Faith deep from his soul he was a man of Faith deep deep faith and uh he wanted freedom and deep faith and uh he wanted freedom and deep faith and uh he wanted freedom and I knew Freedom actually had deep I knew Freedom actually had deep I knew Freedom actually had deep resonance for him because I'd done my resonance for him because I'd done my resonance for him because I'd done my homework and 30 years before he'd been homework and 30 years before he'd been homework and 30 years before he'd been kidnapped as he left his home by a group kidnapped as he left his home by a group kidnapped as he left his home by a group of urban gorillas and held for a week of urban gorillas and held for a week of urban gorillas and held for a week and he thought he wouldn't survive held and he thought he wouldn't survive held and he thought he wouldn't survive held in a coffin and in a coffin and in a coffin and um and so I said so I so I so I said to um and so I said so I so I so I said to um and so I said so I so I so I said to him what does freedom actually mean to him what does freedom actually mean to him what does freedom actually mean to you I mean concretely he said well it's you I mean concretely he said well it's you I mean concretely he said well it's freedom to spend time with my family freedom to spend time with my family freedom to spend time with my family pointed to his kids and his wife he said pointed to his kids and his wife he said pointed to his kids and his wife he said they're the most important thing in my they're the most important thing in my they're the most important thing in my life and it's freedom to make the deals life and it's freedom to make the deals life and it's freedom to make the deals I love to make in the world as a I love to make in the world as a I love to make in the world as a businessman so I said abilio this is the businessman so I said abilio this is the businessman so I said abilio this is the batner batner batner question question question um you know you might be in this um you know you might be in this um you know you might be in this conflict for a long conflict for a long conflict for a long time who who can give you the freedom time who who can give you the freedom time who who can give you the freedom that you most that you most that you most want is it only your adversary your want is it only your adversary your want is it only your adversary your former business former business former business partner you know yeah or is it partner you know yeah or is it partner you know yeah or is it you what's stopping you from spending you what's stopping you from spending you what's stopping you from spending time with your family right now what's time with your family right now what's time with your family right now what's stopping you from making those business stopping you from making those business stopping you from making those business deals right now and he suddenly realized deals right now and he suddenly realized deals right now and he suddenly realized oh he had a batner he had an alternative oh he had a batner he had an alternative oh he had a batner he had an alternative he didn't have to wait and

he didn't have to wait and he didn't have to wait and psychologically psychologically psychologically emotionally that freed him up so that he emotionally that freed him up so that he emotionally that freed him up so that he could actually we could actually could actually we could actually could actually we could actually negotiate more effectively and then when negotiate more effectively and then when negotiate more effectively and then when it came to the actual it came to the actual it came to the actual negotiation you know I I got an negotiation you know I I got an negotiation you know I I got an appointment appointment appointment with his not just his business rival but with his not just his business rival but with his not just his business rival but his business rival's mentor his business rival's mentor his business rival's mentor is a potential third Sider you know is a potential third Sider you know is a potential third Sider you know someone who was his mentor who was a someone who was his mentor who was a someone who was his mentor who was a banker very distinguished French Banker banker very distinguished French Banker banker very distinguished French Banker by the name of avid the rild and uh and by the name of avid the rild and uh and by the name of avid the rild and uh and he invited me to have lunch with him at he invited me to have lunch with him at he invited me to have lunch with him at his rest at a restaurant in in Paris and his rest at a restaurant in in Paris and his rest at a restaurant in in Paris and so I flew over there and this was the so I flew over there and this was the so I flew over there and this was the key thing was I like to go for a walk key thing was I like to go for a walk key thing was I like to go for a walk before I went for a walk in the streets before I went for a walk in the streets before I went for a walk in the streets of Paris and I came across an art of Paris and I came across an art of Paris and I came across an art installation of installation of installation of these from China these giant uh I don't these from China these giant uh I don't these from China these giant uh I don't know what they were Giant know what they were Giant know what they were Giant um like silver gold Buddhas was just um like silver gold Buddhas was just um like silver gold Buddhas was just kind of like they were just flying in kind of like they were just flying in kind of like they were just flying in the air dancing like Angels or something the air dancing like Angels or something the air dancing like Angels or something in here over looking the square and I in here over looking the square and I in here over looking the square and I and the and the thought came to me is and the and the thought came to me is and the and the thought came to me is you know that's what it's about why are you know that's what it's about why are you know that's what it's about why are we fighting so when I sat down with we fighting so when I sat down with we fighting so when I sat down with David he said why are you here and he's David he said why are you here and he's David he said why are you here and he's expecting him to say okay I'm here to expecting him to say okay I'm here to expecting him to say okay I'm here to represent my client whatever I said I'm represent my client whatever I said I'm represent my client whatever I said I'm here for only one here for only one here for only one reason life is too short which is like it's too short for these which is like it's too short for these giant battles where everybody loses my

giant battles where everybody loses my giant battles where everybody loses my friend's losing your friend's losing friend's losing your friend's losing friend's losing your friend's losing their families are suffering the their families are suffering the their families are suffering the employees are suffering the society is employees are suffering the society is employees are suffering the society is suffering who needs suffering who needs suffering who needs it and and he that was like a shift and it and and he that was like a shift and it and and he that was like a shift and it was like it was like it was like suddenly it shifted it reframed the suddenly it shifted it reframed the suddenly it shifted it reframed the situation from okay I'm rep I'm the situation from okay I'm rep I'm the situation from okay I'm rep I'm the Gladiator representing my client you're Gladiator representing my client you're Gladiator representing my client you're the Gladiator representing your client the Gladiator representing your client the Gladiator representing your client no we're helping our no we're helping our no we're helping our friends out of a mess that they're in friends out of a mess that they're in friends out of a mess that they're in right and and he said so how would you right and and he said so how would you right and and he said so how would you how would you how would you approach it how would you how would you approach it how would you how would you approach it I said well if we could just agree that I said well if we could just agree that I said well if we could just agree that both of our friends and clients they both of our friends and clients they both of our friends and clients they want freedom they want freedom to move want freedom they want freedom to move want freedom they want freedom to move on their lives and they also want their on their lives and they also want their on their lives and they also want their dignity they can't afford to be seen to dignity they can't afford to be seen to dignity they can't afford to be seen to lose this thing has gone too public you lose this thing has gone too public you lose this thing has gone too public you can't be a winner and a loser here we can't be a winner and a loser here we can't be a winner and a loser here we have to figure out a way in which have to figure out a way in which have to figure out a way in which neither side loses in fact both sides neither side loses in fact both sides neither side loses in fact both sides can win said well that's interesting and can win said well that's interesting and can win said well that's interesting and he said uh when are you leaving I said he said uh when are you leaving I said he said uh when are you leaving I said I'm leaving tomorrow morning he said I'm leaving tomorrow morning he said I'm leaving tomorrow morning he said well give me your number anyway I went well give me your number anyway I went well give me your number anyway I went for a walk afterwards I got a phone call for a walk afterwards I got a phone call for a walk afterwards I got a phone call from him could you stay on an extra day from him could you stay on an extra day from him could you stay on an extra day and come in and talk we went and talked and come in and talk we went and talked and come in and talk we went and talked and in 45 minutes we just took this very and in 45 minutes we just took this very and in 45 minutes we just took this very complex you know thing and I just said complex you know thing and I just said complex you know thing and I just said what would freedom and dignity mean what would freedom and dignity mean what would freedom and dignity mean concretely you know elimination of the concretely you know elimination of the concretely you know elimination of the non-compete Clause what does it mean non-compete Clause what does it mean non-compete Clause what does it mean that how how do we make sure that no one that how how do we make sure that no one that how how do we make sure that no one could win lose and just we just sketched could win lose and just we just sketched could win lose and just we just sketched out some terms of agreement just you out some terms of agreement just you out some terms of agreement just you know a few like six or seven on a piece know a few like six or seven on a piece know a few like six or seven on a piece of paper and that was a Tuesday you know of paper and that was a Tuesday you know of paper and that was a Tuesday you know I'd met the lunch was on a Monday by

I'd met the lunch was on a Monday by I'd met the lunch was on a Monday by Friday we had both men in a law office Friday we had both men in a law office Friday we had both men in a law office in in s Paulo signing an agreement in in s Paulo signing an agreement in in s Paulo signing an agreement putting an end to the putting an end to the putting an end to the dispute statement not joint statement dispute statement not joint statement dispute statement not joint statement wishing each other very well I took both wishing each other very well I took both wishing each other very well I took both men to meet both leaders to meet with men to meet both leaders to meet with men to meet both leaders to meet with the executives of the company explain the executives of the company explain the executives of the company explain the deal uh explain what was going on the deal uh explain what was going on the deal uh explain what was going on wish each other well and it was over and wish each other well and it was over and wish each other well and it was over and I was like what no one could believe it I was like what no one could believe it I was like what no one could believe it but and the thing was it wasn't magic it but and the thing was it wasn't magic it but and the thing was it wasn't magic it was just like going behind positions for was just like going behind positions for was just like going behind positions for interest looking for something building interest looking for something building interest looking for something building a bridge you know going to the balcony a bridge you know going to the balcony a bridge you know going to the balcony building a little Bridge a golden bridge building a little Bridge a golden bridge building a little Bridge a golden bridge there me as a third side you know the there me as a third side you know the there me as a third side you know the the guy's Mentor the banker David is a the guy's Mentor the banker David is a the guy's Mentor the banker David is a third side the family is the third side third side the family is the third side third side the family is the third side kind of creating a space in which these kind of creating a space in which these kind of creating a space in which these two could find an agreement and I asked two could find an agreement and I asked two could find an agreement and I asked the ailio I said the ailio I said the ailio I said uh later I said ailio how do you feel he uh later I said ailio how do you feel he uh later I said ailio how do you feel he said well he said you know I got said well he said you know I got said well he said you know I got everything I wanted I mean really everything I wanted I mean really everything I wanted I mean really concretely even on his list I got concretely even on his list I got concretely even on his list I got everything I wanted but the most everything I wanted but the most everything I wanted but the most important thing he said was I got my important thing he said was I got my important thing he said was I got my life life life back and and his little son said to his back and and his little son said to his back and and his little son said to his his to to aelia's wife to his to to aelia's wife to his to to aelia's wife to Jayy papy is not on the phone anymore Jayy papy is not on the phone anymore Jayy papy is not on the phone anymore wow and uh and you know I went to ao's wow and uh and you know I went to ao's wow and uh and you know I went to ao's 85th birthday party the year before 85th birthday party the year before 85th birthday party the year before last and he said the last 10 years of last and he said the last 10 years of last and he said the last 10 years of his his his life had been the best years of his life life had been the best years of his life life had been the best years of his life because over the years of Freedom where because over the years of Freedom where because over the years of Freedom where he really got to know uh and so that to

he really got to know uh and so that to he really got to know uh and so that to me is like that's it that you know it me is like that's it that you know it me is like that's it that you know it was a win for him it was a win for the was a win for him it was a win for the was a win for him it was a win for the other side too it was a win for the other side too it was a win for the other side too it was a win for the communities for the society it's a communities for the society it's a communities for the society it's a win-win win not just a win-win but a win win-win win not just a win-win but a win win-win win not just a win-win but a win for the whole and you know what's for the whole and you know what's for the whole and you know what's interesting U they were bitter adversar interesting U they were bitter adversar interesting U they were bitter adversar series but I kept at it and like within series but I kept at it and like within series but I kept at it and like within a year or two I brought them both a year or two I brought them both a year or two I brought them both together for a lunch in Paris with David together for a lunch in Paris with David together for a lunch in Paris with David to talk about their families and their to talk about their families and their to talk about their families and their thing in the old times when they'd thing in the old times when they'd thing in the old times when they'd actually been business partners together actually been business partners together actually been business partners together and do you know uh they remained friends and do you know uh they remained friends and do you know uh they remained friends they they became friendly I mean not they they became friendly I mean not they they became friendly I mean not close friends but they remained on a close friends but they remained on a close friends but they remained on a friendly basis friendly basis friendly basis and it was unimaginable because they saw and it was unimaginable because they saw and it was unimaginable because they saw this saw the other as the arch devil and this saw the other as the arch devil and this saw the other as the arch devil and and just shows you the power of Peace of and just shows you the power of Peace of and just shows you the power of Peace of of just these same principles balcony of just these same principles balcony of just these same principles balcony Bridge third side transforming these Bridge third side transforming these Bridge third side transforming these conflicts and I think if they could do conflicts and I think if they could do conflicts and I think if they could do it any of us could do it this is why I'm it any of us could do it this is why I'm it any of us could do it this is why I'm so grateful for your work to story after so grateful for your work to story after so grateful for your work to story after Story decade after decade um I know Story decade after decade um I know Story decade after decade um I know we're pushing two hours here so I want we're pushing two hours here so I want we're pushing two hours here so I want to be respectful of time couple more to be respectful of time couple more to be respectful of time couple more questions for you this idea of a a third questions for you this idea of a a third questions for you this idea of a a third space like when we get locked in beige space like when we get locked in beige space like when we get locked in beige boardrooms or you know Corporate Offices boardrooms or you know Corporate Offices boardrooms or you know Corporate Offices it seems adversarial you're a big fan of it seems adversarial you're a big fan of it seems adversarial you're a big fan of the balcony often involves a change of the balcony often involves a change of the balcony often involves a change of pace let's go for a walk let's go to a pace let's go for a walk let's go to a pace let's go for a walk let's go to a restaurant let's go stand by the lake uh

restaurant let's go stand by the lake uh restaurant let's go stand by the lake uh do you find breakthroughs often happen do you find breakthroughs often happen do you find breakthroughs often happen in the non-formal in the non-formal in the non-formal settings absolutely settings absolutely settings absolutely um in the room itself there's all kinds um in the room itself there's all kinds um in the room itself there's all kinds of things playing out people make of things playing out people make of things playing out people make speeches and they're not to each other speeches and they're not to each other speeches and they're not to each other talking to the other people in the room talking to the other people in the room talking to the other people in the room you know there you know the real you know there you know the real you know there you know the real breakthroughs come you know proverbial breakthroughs come you know proverbial breakthroughs come you know proverbial in negotiations on the walks in the in negotiations on the walks in the in negotiations on the walks in the woods you know you take a walk you I me woods you know you take a walk you I me woods you know you take a walk you I me even I'm a big fan of walking you know even I'm a big fan of walking you know even I'm a big fan of walking you know I've even in the Middle East years ago I I've even in the Middle East years ago I I've even in the Middle East years ago I I had a crazy idea of uh of helping to I had a crazy idea of uh of helping to I had a crazy idea of uh of helping to inspire a long distance walking path inspire a long distance walking path inspire a long distance walking path across the Middle East that follows the across the Middle East that follows the across the Middle East that follows the footsteps of Abraham and his family is a footsteps of Abraham and his family is a footsteps of Abraham and his family is a kind of Abraham as a reminder that that kind of Abraham as a reminder that that kind of Abraham as a reminder that that no matter what divides us there's no matter what divides us there's no matter what divides us there's something greater that unites us because something greater that unites us because something greater that unites us because you know that that message of that you know that that message of that you know that that message of that there's only one you know and that we're there's only one you know and that we're there's only one you know and that we're all brothers and sisters and that our all brothers and sisters and that our all brothers and sisters and that our duty to others are is to show duty to others are is to show duty to others are is to show Hospitality that's what he's known for Hospitality that's what he's known for Hospitality that's what he's known for in that region and so and he unites in that region and so and he unites in that region and so and he unites those the three great abrahamic fa and those the three great abrahamic fa and those the three great abrahamic fa and so U uh but walking I've noticed when so U uh but walking I've noticed when so U uh but walking I've noticed when you go for a walk you walk side by side you go for a walk you walk side by side you go for a walk you walk side by side in the common Direction and so even in the common Direction and so even in the common Direction and so even physiologically physically you're you're physiologically physically you're you're physiologically physically you're you're going side by side whoever fights while going side by side whoever fights while going side by side whoever fights while they walk you they walk you they walk you know you have to at it it's really hard know you have to at it it's really hard know you have to at it it's really hard to do that so yeah so those modalities to do that so yeah so those modalities to do that so yeah so those modalities really really help go for a walk go for

really really help go for a walk go for really really help go for a walk go for a walk together you you know when you're a walk together you you know when you're a walk together you you know when you're walking you have to actually walking you have to actually walking you have to actually unconsciously you have to like go at the unconsciously you have to like go at the unconsciously you have to like go at the same Pace as the other one you have to same Pace as the other one you have to same Pace as the other one you have to you know your breathing gets you know your breathing gets you know your breathing gets co-regulated you're moving a com co-regulated you're moving a com co-regulated you're moving a com Direction and that metaphor it just Direction and that metaphor it just Direction and that metaphor it just helps it helps it helps uh and that helps it helps it helps uh and that helps it helps it helps uh and that that's why that's why I you know this that's why that's why I you know this that's why that's why I you know this walk and now they're you know there are walk and now they're you know there are walk and now they're you know there are hundreds or thousands of people who are hundreds or thousands of people who are hundreds or thousands of people who are walking parts of this path across the walking parts of this path across the walking parts of this path across the Middle East even in this crazy time uh Middle East even in this crazy time uh Middle East even in this crazy time uh just you know in the places of Jesus the just you know in the places of Jesus the just you know in the places of Jesus the places of Mary the places of all those places of Mary the places of all those places of Mary the places of all those you know uh you know we we've um you you know uh you know we we've um you you know uh you know we we've um you know uh one of the places that is the know uh one of the places that is the know uh one of the places that is the place where Jesus healed the lepers you place where Jesus healed the lepers you place where Jesus healed the lepers you know just they're all all these places know just they're all all these places know just they're all all these places are on the path where you walk very are on the path where you walk very are on the path where you walk very humbly you don't just go in your big humbly you don't just go in your big humbly you don't just go in your big buses and show up there you walk and you buses and show up there you walk and you buses and show up there you walk and you walk into these little Villages and walk into these little Villages and walk into these little Villages and guess what people show you Hospitality guess what people show you Hospitality guess what people show you Hospitality because that's the that's what they know because that's the that's what they know because that's the that's what they know Abraham for is the spirit of Abraham is Abraham for is the spirit of Abraham is Abraham for is the spirit of Abraham is he had a tent open in all four he had a tent open in all four he had a tent open in all four directions to welcome the Angels directions to welcome the Angels directions to welcome the Angels remember the angels that come in I do so remember the angels that come in I do so remember the angels that come in I do so it's like uh it's uh yeah and so it's uh it's like uh it's uh yeah and so it's uh it's like uh it's uh yeah and so it's uh it's again it's a long-term project but it's again it's a long-term project but it's again it's a long-term project but it's like just to ReDiscover it's like just to ReDiscover it's like just to ReDiscover what unites us which is for people to what unites us which is for people to what unites us which is for people to appreciate that again no matter what appreciate that again no matter what appreciate that again no matter what divides us into today's world you know divides us into today's world you know divides us into today's world you know there's something greater that unites us there's something greater that unites us there's something greater that unites us and and to remember that to me to bring and and to remember that to me to bring and and to remember that to me to bring that Spirit which is a third side Spirit that Spirit which is a third side Spirit that Spirit which is a third side Spirit can help transform the difficult

can help transform the difficult can help transform the difficult conflicts may take time it's hard this conflicts may take time it's hard this conflicts may take time it's hard this is the hardest work you can do but it's is the hardest work you can do but it's is the hardest work you can do but it's like step by step we can start to see like step by step we can start to see like step by step we can start to see possibilities one of the things reading possibilities one of the things reading possibilities one of the things reading between the lines of your life's work is between the lines of your life's work is between the lines of your life's work is you seem to have an incredibly flexible you seem to have an incredibly flexible you seem to have an incredibly flexible schedule you know it's not like well schedule you know it's not like well schedule you know it's not like well I'll do this one hour lunch and we'll I'll do this one hour lunch and we'll I'll do this one hour lunch and we'll resolve this you're you're dropping what resolve this you're you're dropping what resolve this you're you're dropping what you're doing you know flying to meet you're doing you know flying to meet you're doing you know flying to meet Dennis Rodman you're being summoned to Dennis Rodman you're being summoned to Dennis Rodman you're being summoned to the White House you're um there seems to the White House you're um there seems to the White House you're um there seems to be a level of spontaneity and then a be a level of spontaneity and then a be a level of spontaneity and then a good measure of time involved in that good measure of time involved in that good measure of time involved in that number one is that accurate number two number one is that accurate number two number one is that accurate number two any advice for leaders who just want to any advice for leaders who just want to any advice for leaders who just want to get everything done right get everything done right get everything done right away for sure away for sure away for sure um yeah I do I I well I I try to build um yeah I do I I well I I try to build um yeah I do I I well I I try to build in some in some in some spaciousness um and flexibility of like spaciousness um and flexibility of like spaciousness um and flexibility of like if you can you know go for I I live on a if you can you know go for I I live on a if you can you know go for I I live on a lake if I go for a walk around the lake lake if I go for a walk around the lake lake if I go for a walk around the lake and I think what's truly important here and I think what's truly important here and I think what's truly important here and then yeah be flexible look for and then yeah be flexible look for and then yeah be flexible look for what's the highest purpose that you're what's the highest purpose that you're what's the highest purpose that you're here for you know for me you know the here for you know for me you know the here for you know for me you know the you know I uh my you know you you know I uh my you know you you know I uh my you know you encapsulate that in piece of some kind encapsulate that in piece of some kind encapsulate that in piece of some kind and and it's it's a it's a outer piece and and it's it's a it's a outer piece and and it's it's a it's a outer piece but it's actually very linked to but it's actually very linked to but it's actually very linked to obviously inner piece but it's like obviously inner piece but it's like obviously inner piece but it's like that's the higher prerogative you know that's the higher prerogative you know that's the higher prerogative you know then everything else has to like you then everything else has to like you then everything else has to like you know make space for that so I think it

know make space for that so I think it know make space for that so I think it does require listening for where those does require listening for where those does require listening for where those opportunities are and that requires a opportunities are and that requires a opportunities are and that requires a little bit of spaciousness time on the little bit of spaciousness time on the little bit of spaciousness time on the balcony which is that larger balcony which is that larger balcony which is that larger that larger sense of what's life all that larger sense of what's life all that larger sense of what's life all about you know and uh what's what's why about you know and uh what's what's why about you know and uh what's what's why are we here and uh and uh if not to to are we here and uh and uh if not to to are we here and uh and uh if not to to kind of learn these these things and you kind of learn these these things and you kind of learn these these things and you know to to practice I mean to me know to to practice I mean to me know to to practice I mean to me negotiation and all the we're talking negotiation and all the we're talking negotiation and all the we're talking about Carrie is I mean it's the same about Carrie is I mean it's the same about Carrie is I mean it's the same principles that are found in the principles that are found in the principles that are found in the teachings of Jesus but there it's teachings of Jesus but there it's teachings of Jesus but there it's applied practically applied practically applied practically to the situations around around us yeah to the situations around around us yeah to the situations around around us yeah and Jesus was very much like not on a and Jesus was very much like not on a and Jesus was very much like not on a super tight schedule there was a spa super tight schedule there was a spa super tight schedule there was a spa there was busyness but a spaciousness there was busyness but a spaciousness there was busyness but a spaciousness you got it and a Grace in the way he did you got it and a Grace in the way he did you got it and a Grace in the way he did that I want more and more of that in the that I want more and more of that in the that I want more and more of that in the decades ahead I guess my last question decades ahead I guess my last question decades ahead I guess my last question William and I'm quite amazed at this William and I'm quite amazed at this William and I'm quite amazed at this like you know an entire life so far four like you know an entire life so far four like you know an entire life so far four and a half decades literally helping to and a half decades literally helping to and a half decades literally helping to solve the world's biggest problems and solve the world's biggest problems and solve the world's biggest problems and challenges that Humanity existentially challenges that Humanity existentially challenges that Humanity existentially faces faces faces this whole interview you're smiling when this whole interview you're smiling when this whole interview you're smiling when I'm reading your book it's positive I'm reading your book it's positive I'm reading your book it's positive you're an optimist well you're a you're an optimist well you're a you're an optimist well you're a possibilist but there's an optimism possibilist but there's an optimism possibilist but there's an optimism under that it would be so easy having under that it would be so easy having under that it would be so easy having seen you know world leader after world seen you know world leader after world seen you know world leader after world leader the worst of human nature if you leader the worst of human nature if you leader the worst of human nature if you were a cynic now I'd be like I get it

were a cynic now I'd be like I get it were a cynic now I'd be like I get it but you're not what's what's keeping you but you're not what's what's keeping you but you're not what's what's keeping you hopeful and optimistic after multiple hopeful and optimistic after multiple hopeful and optimistic after multiple Decades of doing this that's a good Decades of doing this that's a good Decades of doing this that's a good question that's why when people ask me question that's why when people ask me question that's why when people ask me if I'm an optimist and a pessimist I say if I'm an optimist and a pessimist I say if I'm an optimist and a pessimist I say actually I'm a actually I'm a actually I'm a possibilist exactly I believe in human possibilist exactly I believe in human possibilist exactly I believe in human possibility I believe possibility I believe possibility I believe in uh why because I've seen it happen in uh why because I've seen it happen in uh why because I've seen it happen with my own eyes you know I've seen with my own eyes you know I've seen with my own eyes you know I've seen situations after one situation after situations after one situation after situations after one situation after another where it seemed to be absolutely another where it seemed to be absolutely another where it seemed to be absolutely impossible I gave the example South impossible I gave the example South impossible I gave the example South Africa Northern Ireland where Catholics Africa Northern Ireland where Catholics Africa Northern Ireland where Catholics and Protestants were and Protestants were and Protestants were you know killing each other for you know killing each other for you know killing each other for centuries and generations and yet you centuries and generations and yet you centuries and generations and yet you know they're able people I've watched know they're able people I've watched know they're able people I've watched people do it you know I I've been people do it you know I I've been people do it you know I I've been working in Colombia most recently for working in Colombia most recently for working in Colombia most recently for seven years as an adviser to the seven years as an adviser to the seven years as an adviser to the president you know a civil war had' gone president you know a civil war had' gone president you know a civil war had' gone on there for 50 years hundreds of on there for 50 years hundreds of on there for 50 years hundreds of thousands dead millions of victims and thousands dead millions of victims and thousands dead millions of victims and yet that got transformed uh over over yet that got transformed uh over over yet that got transformed uh over over seven years so I've seen it happen and seven years so I've seen it happen and seven years so I've seen it happen and I've seen it happen in the micro too as I've seen it happen in the micro too as I've seen it happen in the micro too as you know like you know my friend ailio you know like you know my friend ailio you know like you know my friend ailio and his or in families so I know what and his or in families so I know what and his or in families so I know what human beings are capable of these are human beings are capable of these are human beings are capable of these are things that we have inside of us it's things that we have inside of us it's things that we have inside of us it's it's our own it's our Birthright it's it's our own it's our Birthright it's it's our own it's our Birthright it's our human potential and so and what our human potential and so and what our human potential and so and what keeps and I and I so I've seen it enough keeps and I and I so I've seen it enough keeps and I and I so I've seen it enough happen that I I just I I know it can happen that I I just I I know it can happen that I I just I I know it can happen with my own eyes and you know now happen with my own eyes and you know now happen with my own eyes and you know now I have a grandson who's uh who's just

I have a grandson who's uh who's just I have a grandson who's uh who's just about to turn to Diego and and he I call about to turn to Diego and and he I call about to turn to Diego and and he I call him my new boss I'm working for his him my new boss I'm working for his him my new boss I'm working for his generation you know on on the day he was generation you know on on the day he was generation you know on on the day he was born I was able to hold him in my arms born I was able to hold him in my arms born I was able to hold him in my arms for an hour and I was just like feel the for an hour and I was just like feel the for an hour and I was just like feel the pure potentiality of a of a human being pure potentiality of a of a human being pure potentiality of a of a human being and just ask you know when he turns 21 and just ask you know when he turns 21 and just ask you know when he turns 21 for his for his for his generation uh what what kind of world generation uh what what kind of world generation uh what what kind of world are they goingon to have and and and are they goingon to have and and and are they goingon to have and and and what would they like us to do right now what would they like us to do right now what would they like us to do right now to help create that world and uh and so to help create that world and uh and so to help create that world and uh and so that's why you know that that keeps me that's why you know that that keeps me that's why you know that that keeps me going that's you know and he's a you going that's you know and he's a you going that's you know and he's a you know every child is born as a know every child is born as a know every child is born as a possibilist they're always open they're possibilist they're always open they're possibilist they're always open they're exploring they're new and we're all we exploring they're new and we're all we exploring they're new and we're all we all have that so if we could just bring all have that so if we could just bring all have that so if we could just bring all of us and and the leaders of the all of us and and the leaders of the all of us and and the leaders of the church you know I'd say have a special church you know I'd say have a special church you know I'd say have a special role as kind of leaders of the third role as kind of leaders of the third role as kind of leaders of the third side to be third side leaders if we can side to be third side leaders if we can side to be third side leaders if we can all just bring that to the conflicts all just bring that to the conflicts all just bring that to the conflicts that are immediately around us with our that are immediately around us with our that are immediately around us with our congregations with our staff and then congregations with our staff and then congregations with our staff and then with our communities with a larger world with our communities with a larger world with our communities with a larger world then if we can transform our conflicts then if we can transform our conflicts then if we can transform our conflicts you know there's nothing the world right you know there's nothing the world right you know there's nothing the world right now we have so much that we can we can now we have so much that we can we can now we have so much that we can we can deal with Hunger we can deal with deal with Hunger we can deal with deal with Hunger we can deal with disease we can deal with everything disease we can deal with everything disease we can deal with everything we've got the technology to do it the we've got the technology to do it the we've got the technology to do it the only thing that's blocking us is our only thing that's blocking us is our only thing that's blocking us is our habit of falling into conflict so if we habit of falling into conflict so if we habit of falling into conflict so if we can transform our conflicts we can can transform our conflicts we can can transform our conflicts we can transform Our Lives we can transform our transform Our Lives we can transform our transform Our Lives we can transform our world we can create the world we want world we can create the world we want world we can create the world we want for our children and grandchildren for our children and grandchildren for our children and grandchildren that's what keeps me going well William that's what keeps me going well William that's what keeps me going well William we need more of you and uh I would just

we need more of you and uh I would just we need more of you and uh I would just want to encourage every leader I was want to encourage every leader I was want to encourage every leader I was telling you before my wife's a lawyer telling you before my wife's a lawyer telling you before my wife's a lawyer and a mediator she says this is the best and a mediator she says this is the best and a mediator she says this is the best book she's ever read hands down on that book she's ever read hands down on that book she's ever read hands down on that topic of bringing peace it's called topic of bringing peace it's called topic of bringing peace it's called possible how we survive and thrive in an possible how we survive and thrive in an possible how we survive and thrive in an age of conflict you've got a huge age of conflict you've got a huge age of conflict you've got a huge Library getting to yes getting past no Library getting to yes getting past no Library getting to yes getting past no power of a positive no so many other power of a positive no so many other power of a positive no so many other books I just love what you've devoted books I just love what you've devoted books I just love what you've devoted your life to and I just want to say what your life to and I just want to say what your life to and I just want to say what a tremendous Joy honor and privilege a tremendous Joy honor and privilege a tremendous Joy honor and privilege it's been to spend a couple hours with it's been to spend a couple hours with it's been to spend a couple hours with you on behalf of uh so many tens of you on behalf of uh so many tens of you on behalf of uh so many tens of thousands of church leaders listening to thousands of church leaders listening to thousands of church leaders listening to this so thank you it's a real privilege this so thank you it's a real privilege this so thank you it's a real privilege for me to be able to do this William it for me to be able to do this William it for me to be able to do this William it has been my sheer joy and privilege has been my sheer joy and privilege has been my sheer joy and privilege Carrie and I just want to wish you and Carrie and I just want to wish you and Carrie and I just want to wish you and everyone who's listening to this every everyone who's listening to this every everyone who's listening to this every every success in in doing this because I every success in in doing this because I every success in in doing this because I mean this is God's work really hey the mean this is God's work really hey the mean this is God's work really hey the church should be good at this let's be church should be good at this let's be church should be good at this let's be honest like we shouldn't be the drivers honest like we shouldn't be the drivers honest like we shouldn't be the drivers of conflict and division we should be of conflict and division we should be of conflict and division we should be the people who are figuring out how how the people who are figuring out how how the people who are figuring out how how to bring bring that third view into all to bring bring that third view into all to bring bring that third view into all of this he was called The Prince of of this he was called The Prince of of this he was called The Prince of Peace for a Peace for a Peace for a reason yeah yeah absolutely William reason yeah yeah absolutely William reason yeah yeah absolutely William that's great well thank you you're going that's great well thank you you're going that's great well thank you you're going on a big sabatical right I am I am I'm on a big sabatical right I am I am I'm on a big sabatical right I am I am I'm gonna go on walks I'm gonna just take gonna go on walks I'm gonna just take gonna go on walks I'm gonna just take some time to really um listen for what's some time to really um listen for what's some time to really um listen for what's next and and what's now here in the next and and what's now here in the next and and what's now here in the world yeah brilliant thank you for being world yeah brilliant thank you for being world yeah brilliant thank you for being so generous with your time before that so generous with your time before that so generous with your time before that sabatical I appreciate it you're so sabatical I appreciate it you're so sabatical I appreciate it you're so welcome Carrie