When to Take a Risk and Get Past Broke Thinking at Your Church

It's funny to me to imagine churches of It's funny to me to imagine churches of all places all places all places joining in with these super exploitative joining in with these super exploitative joining in with these super exploitative businesses to say, "What can we get away businesses to say, "What can we get away businesses to say, "What can we get away with?" with?" with?" Like I gosh, really? Oh man, that hurts Like I gosh, really? Oh man, that hurts Like I gosh, really? Oh man, that hurts so bad. so bad. so bad. >> there's some really good people, but you >> there's some really good people, but you >> there's some really good people, but you get the mean counter on the board, get the mean counter on the board, get the mean counter on the board, right? That is not uncommon. I have right? That is not uncommon. I have right? That is not uncommon. I have encountered it, too, in for-profit and encountered it, too, in for-profit and encountered it, too, in for-profit and nonprofit alike. And the issue is nonprofit alike. And the issue is nonprofit alike. And the issue is we are The problem is how we teach we are The problem is how we teach we are The problem is how we teach economics, actually. Even if you've economics, actually. Even if you've economics, actually. Even if you've never taken an economics class, you've never taken an economics class, you've never taken an economics class, you've probably inherited this idea. Welcome to probably inherited this idea. Welcome to probably inherited this idea. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us. Man, you I'm so glad you joined us. Man, you I'm so glad you joined us. Man, you know, when almost an hour isn't enough, know, when almost an hour isn't enough, know, when almost an hour isn't enough, I've got one of those today. We got Eric I've got one of those today. We got Eric I've got one of those today. We got Eric Ries on the podcast. Ries on the podcast. Ries on the podcast. Maybe you have heard of the Lean Maybe you have heard of the Lean Maybe you have heard of the Lean Startup. Uh it's a legendary book. I Startup. Uh it's a legendary book. I Startup. Uh it's a legendary book. I have heard so much about it. In fact, have heard so much about it. In fact, have heard so much about it. In fact, we're going to talk about some things we're going to talk about some things we're going to talk about some things that you probably didn't even know go that you probably didn't even know go that you probably didn't even know go back to Eric Ries and uh how they can back to Eric Ries and uh how they can back to Eric Ries and uh how they can impact your church, whether you're a impact your church, whether you're a impact your church, whether you're a church planter, or especially if you're church planter, or especially if you're church planter, or especially if you're trying to transition a church. You're trying to transition a church. You're trying to transition a church. You're going to love this episode. Eric and I going to love this episode. Eric and I going to love this episode. Eric and I are going to talk about how to know when are going to talk about how to know when are going to talk about how to know when to take a risk.

to take a risk. to take a risk. Start with minimal viable products. How Start with minimal viable products. How Start with minimal viable products. How to get past broke [music] thinking in to get past broke [music] thinking in to get past broke [music] thinking in your church. Man, we go there. And why your church. Man, we go there. And why your church. Man, we go there. And why harder is easier. [music] It's going to harder is easier. [music] It's going to harder is easier. [music] It's going to be a fascinating conversation. If you're be a fascinating conversation. If you're be a fascinating conversation. If you're new here, welcome. Please hit follow new here, welcome. Please hit follow new here, welcome. Please hit follow wherever you're watching, wherever you wherever you're watching, wherever you wherever you're watching, wherever you are listening. Because when you do that, are listening. Because when you do that, are listening. Because when you do that, it's easier to catch all the other it's easier to catch all the other it's easier to catch all the other episodes. And uh I'll tell you a little episodes. And uh I'll tell you a little episodes. And uh I'll tell you a little bit more about Eric, then we'll jump bit more about Eric, then we'll jump bit more about Eric, then we'll jump straight into my conversation. Eric straight into my conversation. Eric straight into my conversation. Eric Ries's ideas about continuous Ries's ideas about continuous Ries's ideas about continuous innovation, long-term thinking, innovation, long-term thinking, innovation, long-term thinking, governance, and market reform have governance, and market reform have governance, and market reform have reshaped company building and management reshaped company building and management reshaped company building and management practices. Literally changed how people practices. Literally changed how people practices. Literally changed how people launch companies. He is the creator of launch companies. He is the creator of launch companies. He is the creator of the Lean Startup method, the author of the Lean Startup method, the author of the Lean Startup method, the author of the New York Times bestseller The Lean the New York Times bestseller The Lean the New York Times bestseller The Lean Startup. On his podcast, The Eric Ries Startup. On his podcast, The Eric Ries Startup. On his podcast, The Eric Ries Show, he talks to guests including Show, he talks to guests including Show, he talks to guests including world-class technologists, thought world-class technologists, thought world-class technologists, thought leaders, and executives working to build leaders, and executives working to build leaders, and executives working to build profitable companies for the long haul. profitable companies for the long haul. profitable companies for the long haul. And today we discuss his new ideas And today we discuss his new ideas And today we discuss his new ideas around becoming an incorruptible leader, around becoming an incorruptible leader, around becoming an incorruptible leader, church, organization, and company. So, church, organization, and company. So, church, organization, and company. So, now to my conversation with Eric Reese.

now to my conversation with Eric Reese. now to my conversation with Eric Reese. Well, Eric, it's good to finally have a Well, Eric, it's good to finally have a Well, Eric, it's good to finally have a conversation. Welcome to the podcast. conversation. Welcome to the podcast. conversation. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks so much. Hey, thanks so much. Hey, thanks so much. Yeah, so I work primarily with church Yeah, so I work primarily with church Yeah, so I work primarily with church leaders, as you know, and I want to talk leaders, as you know, and I want to talk leaders, as you know, and I want to talk about your framework because I think about your framework because I think about your framework because I think it's really interesting and I want to go it's really interesting and I want to go it's really interesting and I want to go back to kind of back to kind of back to kind of what you became known for, the whole what you became known for, the whole what you became known for, the whole Lean Startup. And Lean Startup. And Lean Startup. And there's all these concepts that are sort there's all these concepts that are sort there's all these concepts that are sort of floating in the ether that if you of floating in the ether that if you of floating in the ether that if you aren't generally aware, came from aren't generally aware, came from aren't generally aware, came from that work. Things like minimum viable that work. Things like minimum viable that work. Things like minimum viable product. I was in a call earlier this product. I was in a call earlier this product. I was in a call earlier this week and I'm like, can we not have a week and I'm like, can we not have a week and I'm like, can we not have a minimum viable product version of what minimum viable product version of what minimum viable product version of what we're talking about? Um we're talking about? Um we're talking about? Um so, I would I would love for you just to so, I would I would love for you just to so, I would I would love for you just to share some core concepts and maybe share some core concepts and maybe share some core concepts and maybe connect the dots for leaders who are connect the dots for leaders who are connect the dots for leaders who are like, oh, that's where that came from. like, oh, that's where that came from. like, oh, that's where that came from. >> Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I >> Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I >> Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I my background is in is in technology, so my background is in is in technology, so my background is in is in technology, so so Lean Startup comes out of the tech so Lean Startup comes out of the tech so Lean Startup comes out of the tech sector, but sector, but sector, but part of what I wanted to do was to bring part of what I wanted to do was to bring part of what I wanted to do was to bring a vocabulary and a set of concepts that a vocabulary and a set of concepts that a vocabulary and a set of concepts that would make um the practice of would make um the practice of would make um the practice of entrepreneurship more rigorous. Because entrepreneurship more rigorous. Because entrepreneurship more rigorous. Because I felt like so much of the way we are I felt like so much of the way we are I felt like so much of the way we are taught business, and because business is taught business, and because business is taught business, and because business is kind of like we financialize everything kind of like we financialize everything kind of like we financialize everything in our society, so the language of in our society, so the language of in our society, so the language of business has leaked out into every business has leaked out into every business has leaked out into every sector of society. There's no longer sector of society. There's no longer sector of society. There's no longer separate spheres really anymore. Um so separate spheres really anymore. Um so separate spheres really anymore. Um so much of it is like borderline astrology.

much of it is like borderline astrology. much of it is like borderline astrology. You know, just like forecasting what's You know, just like forecasting what's You know, just like forecasting what's going to happen based on the power of going to happen based on the power of going to happen based on the power of your mind, manifesting and making it your mind, manifesting and making it your mind, manifesting and making it happen, and all kinds of other nonsense happen, and all kinds of other nonsense happen, and all kinds of other nonsense that's like dressed up in the language that's like dressed up in the language that's like dressed up in the language of business and money and numbers and of business and money and numbers and of business and money and numbers and whatever, but at the end of the day it's whatever, but at the end of the day it's whatever, but at the end of the day it's just fiction writing. That's what most just fiction writing. That's what most just fiction writing. That's what most business plans are. Most plans in business plans are. Most plans in business plans are. Most plans in general are just a prediction about general are just a prediction about general are just a prediction about what's going to happen in the in the what's going to happen in the in the what's going to happen in the in the future. And so, to me it made more sense future. And so, to me it made more sense future. And so, to me it made more sense um to say, look, if we're dealing with a um to say, look, if we're dealing with a um to say, look, if we're dealing with a situation where there's uncertainty situation where there's uncertainty situation where there's uncertainty about what's going to happen about what's going to happen about what's going to happen for whatever reason, either because the for whatever reason, either because the for whatever reason, either because the the is changing rapidly, gosh, you know, the is changing rapidly, gosh, you know, the is changing rapidly, gosh, you know, oh no. Or because we're trying to make oh no. Or because we're trying to make oh no. Or because we're trying to make that change happen ourselves by doing that change happen ourselves by doing that change happen ourselves by doing something new. Either way, we're not something new. Either way, we're not something new. Either way, we're not completely sure what's going to happen. completely sure what's going to happen. completely sure what's going to happen. It makes sense to borrow a lesson from It makes sense to borrow a lesson from It makes sense to borrow a lesson from the scientific method. Treat what we the scientific method. Treat what we the scientific method. Treat what we call our leap of faith assumptions call our leap of faith assumptions call our leap of faith assumptions as as as hypotheses, things to experiment with, hypotheses, things to experiment with, hypotheses, things to experiment with, things to discover what's really true. things to discover what's really true. things to discover what's really true. And what I liked about that was not only And what I liked about that was not only And what I liked about that was not only does that make entrepreneurship more does that make entrepreneurship more does that make entrepreneurship more accessible to people because now we're accessible to people because now we're accessible to people because now we're taking something that we tend to talk taking something that we tend to talk taking something that we tend to talk about with like hero worship terms, you about with like hero worship terms, you about with like hero worship terms, you know, like know, like know, like the great man of the you know, whoever the great man of the you know, whoever the great man of the you know, whoever the Steve Jobs or the Mark Zuckerberg the Steve Jobs or the Mark Zuckerberg the Steve Jobs or the Mark Zuckerberg whatever. They're the only ones who can whatever. They're the only ones who can whatever. They're the only ones who can do entrepreneurship. It makes it much do entrepreneurship. It makes it much do entrepreneurship. It makes it much more accessible to people because it's more accessible to people because it's more accessible to people because it's tools that we can teach and as I as tools that we can teach and as I as tools that we can teach and as I as practitioners get better at. But more practitioners get better at. But more practitioners get better at. But more importantly, it turns entrepreneurship importantly, it turns entrepreneurship importantly, it turns entrepreneurship really into a truth-seeking discipline.

really into a truth-seeking discipline. really into a truth-seeking discipline. And that's how it's always seemed to me. And that's how it's always seemed to me. And that's how it's always seemed to me. Like to me, the richness, the the the Like to me, the richness, the the the Like to me, the richness, the the the excitement of doing excitement of doing excitement of doing uh doing entrepreneurship is that you're uh doing entrepreneurship is that you're uh doing entrepreneurship is that you're really trying to find out what is real, really trying to find out what is real, really trying to find out what is real, what is true. what is true. what is true. What will customers accept or what can What will customers accept or what can What will customers accept or what can my organization accomplish? my organization accomplish? my organization accomplish? You don't really know until you try. So, You don't really know until you try. So, You don't really know until you try. So, um having a container for that to um having a container for that to um having a container for that to happen. So so all a lot of the jargon happen. So so all a lot of the jargon happen. So so all a lot of the jargon that Lean Startup is responsible for, as that Lean Startup is responsible for, as that Lean Startup is responsible for, as you say, minimum viable product, that you say, minimum viable product, that you say, minimum viable product, that like the the smallest version of a like the the smallest version of a like the the smallest version of a product that still makes sense to try to product that still makes sense to try to product that still makes sense to try to see if our vision is true. see if our vision is true. see if our vision is true. Uh and also the pivot, the change in Uh and also the pivot, the change in Uh and also the pivot, the change in strategy without a change in vision. strategy without a change in vision. strategy without a change in vision. When we encounter difficulties, we don't When we encounter difficulties, we don't When we encounter difficulties, we don't just give up and go home, but neither do just give up and go home, but neither do just give up and go home, but neither do we like just ram the car right into the we like just ram the car right into the we like just ram the car right into the wall over and over again cuz we're too wall over and over again cuz we're too wall over and over again cuz we're too stubborn to make a right turn and go stubborn to make a right turn and go stubborn to make a right turn and go around the detour. So, anyway, there's a around the detour. So, anyway, there's a around the detour. So, anyway, there's a series of practices that we developed um series of practices that we developed um series of practices that we developed um drawing on a lot of different drawing on a lot of different drawing on a lot of different intellectual traditions uh to put intellectual traditions uh to put intellectual traditions uh to put together into a package that, you know, together into a package that, you know, together into a package that, you know, obviously has has kind of taken over the obviously has has kind of taken over the obviously has has kind of taken over the world and taken over my life in the world and taken over my life in the world and taken over my life in the years since the book was written. That years since the book was written. That years since the book was written. That was 2000 was 2000 was 2000 Oh, I'll bet it has. So, that was 2011, Oh, I'll bet it has. So, that was 2011, Oh, I'll bet it has. So, that was 2011, yeah. And it's funny how yeah. And it's funny how yeah. And it's funny how that book, the Lean Startup, really that book, the Lean Startup, really that book, the Lean Startup, really changed the dialogue and changed changed the dialogue and changed changed the dialogue and changed honestly how companies launch. So, we honestly how companies launch. So, we honestly how companies launch. So, we have an equivalent in church world have an equivalent in church world have an equivalent in church world called church planting. 3 to 4,000 called church planting. 3 to 4,000 called church planting. 3 to 4,000 churches start from scratch every year.

churches start from scratch every year. churches start from scratch every year. Like business, majority don't make it. Like business, majority don't make it. Like business, majority don't make it. 2/3 to 3/4, depending on what study you 2/3 to 3/4, depending on what study you 2/3 to 3/4, depending on what study you read. And read. And read. And you know, a lot of them don't get off you know, a lot of them don't get off you know, a lot of them don't get off the ground because they don't have the ground because they don't have the ground because they don't have enough funding, they don't have enough enough funding, they don't have enough enough funding, they don't have enough people. Their their minimum viable people. Their their minimum viable people. Their their minimum viable product was too minimal. Mhm. And so, it product was too minimal. Mhm. And so, it product was too minimal. Mhm. And so, it never really never really never really >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> really. But But I want to think about it >> really. But But I want to think about it >> really. But But I want to think about it too as a too as a too as a um a framework because I think there's a um a framework because I think there's a um a framework because I think there's a lot of pressure on leaders. And, you lot of pressure on leaders. And, you lot of pressure on leaders. And, you know, let's say you have an established know, let's say you have an established know, let's say you have an established church and you've got momentum and you church and you've got momentum and you church and you've got momentum and you want to try something new. want to try something new. want to try something new. A lot of people figure, well, it's got A lot of people figure, well, it's got A lot of people figure, well, it's got to be fully org'd. I've got to launch to be fully org'd. I've got to launch to be fully org'd. I've got to launch this thing. We got to put $100,000, a this thing. We got to put $100,000, a this thing. We got to put $100,000, a million dollars behind it. It's got to million dollars behind it. It's got to million dollars behind it. It's got to be like operating on all cylinders on be like operating on all cylinders on be like operating on all cylinders on day one. But I think that MVP, minimal day one. But I think that MVP, minimal day one. But I think that MVP, minimal viable product, it's something I've viable product, it's something I've viable product, it's something I've tucked tucked tucked under my idea and I think often now, under my idea and I think often now, under my idea and I think often now, Eric, in terms of experiments. So, I'll Eric, in terms of experiments. So, I'll Eric, in terms of experiments. So, I'll experiment with this or let's launch a experiment with this or let's launch a experiment with this or let's launch a beta or let's just try this and see if beta or let's just try this and see if beta or let's just try this and see if it works cuz worst case, 6 months from it works cuz worst case, 6 months from it works cuz worst case, 6 months from now, we just pull the plug and we don't now, we just pull the plug and we don't now, we just pull the plug and we don't we don't do it anymore. But the more you we don't do it anymore. But the more you we don't do it anymore. But the more you put into it, the harder it is to reverse put into it, the harder it is to reverse put into it, the harder it is to reverse course even if it's not working. How course even if it's not working. How course even if it's not working. How does that work for an established cuz does that work for an established cuz does that work for an established cuz the vast majority of people listening to the vast majority of people listening to the vast majority of people listening to this or watching are not church this or watching are not church this or watching are not church planters.

planters. planters. They're they're trying to do something They're they're trying to do something They're they're trying to do something new. So, explain to us how MVP, minimal new. So, explain to us how MVP, minimal new. So, explain to us how MVP, minimal viable product, works in the context of viable product, works in the context of viable product, works in the context of an established organization. an established organization. an established organization. >> entrepreneurs. Yeah, I see. >> entrepreneurs. Yeah, I see. >> entrepreneurs. Yeah, I see. >> they didn't ask to be entrepreneurs. >> they didn't ask to be entrepreneurs. >> they didn't ask to be entrepreneurs. They have a regular regular job in a They have a regular regular job in a They have a regular regular job in a regular place and now change comes to regular place and now change comes to regular place and now change comes to you. And obviously, I mean I'm in with you. And obviously, I mean I'm in with you. And obviously, I mean I'm in with religious participation going through religious participation going through religious participation going through such changes, especially in this such changes, especially in this such changes, especially in this country. country. country. >> most churches are declining and dying. >> most churches are declining and dying. >> most churches are declining and dying. So, if you're not So, if you're not So, if you're not >> it's like it's it's catastrophic. So, I >> it's like it's it's catastrophic. So, I >> it's like it's it's catastrophic. So, I think one of the things that's really think one of the things that's really think one of the things that's really difficult about leadership in a time difficult about leadership in a time difficult about leadership in a time like that is people are so hardwired to like that is people are so hardwired to like that is people are so hardwired to do what's made them successful in the do what's made them successful in the do what's made them successful in the past. So, when the circumstance changes, past. So, when the circumstance changes, past. So, when the circumstance changes, it can require a lot of humility, it can require a lot of humility, it can require a lot of humility, frankly, to say, "Wait a minute. Maybe frankly, to say, "Wait a minute. Maybe frankly, to say, "Wait a minute. Maybe what worked for me before is not going what worked for me before is not going what worked for me before is not going to work now and to really try something to work now and to really try something to work now and to really try something new." So, that like one of the the key new." So, that like one of the the key new." So, that like one of the the key lessons of of lessons of of lessons of of the Lean Startup and and the successor the Lean Startup and and the successor the Lean Startup and and the successor books that I've written that that are books that I've written that that are books that I've written that that are especially the ones that are about especially the ones that are about especially the ones that are about established organizations. The key established organizations. The key established organizations. The key lesson is that uncertainty defines lesson is that uncertainty defines lesson is that uncertainty defines entrepreneurship. Not what kind of entrepreneurship. Not what kind of entrepreneurship. Not what kind of clothes you wear, not whether you work clothes you wear, not whether you work clothes you wear, not whether you work in a garage, for-profit, non-profit, in a garage, for-profit, non-profit, in a garage, for-profit, non-profit, faith-based, mission-driven, doesn't faith-based, mission-driven, doesn't faith-based, mission-driven, doesn't make The surface characteristics don't make The surface characteristics don't make The surface characteristics don't matter. If you If you're in a situation matter. If you If you're in a situation matter. If you If you're in a situation where you have to try something new, where you have to try something new, where you have to try something new, then you are an entrepreneur, no matter then you are an entrepreneur, no matter then you are an entrepreneur, no matter what. So, what does MVP look like in in what. So, what does MVP look like in in what. So, what does MVP look like in in those kind of situations? Um those kind of situations? Um those kind of situations? Um This is obviously ancient wisdom, but This is obviously ancient wisdom, but This is obviously ancient wisdom, but has been recently confirmed in has been recently confirmed in has been recently confirmed in psychological studies, as happens so psychological studies, as happens so psychological studies, as happens so often.

often. often. Um one of my favorite studies is if you Um one of my favorite studies is if you Um one of my favorite studies is if you ask people who love poetry ask people who love poetry ask people who love poetry to put a go under an MRI machine, we to put a go under an MRI machine, we to put a go under an MRI machine, we scan their brain, and we ask them to scan their brain, and we ask them to scan their brain, and we ask them to read their favorite poem they've ever read their favorite poem they've ever read their favorite poem they've ever ever read. You watch their brain, it ever read. You watch their brain, it ever read. You watch their brain, it lights up with pleasure. lights up with pleasure. lights up with pleasure. You know, the pleasure centers all are You know, the pleasure centers all are You know, the pleasure centers all are illuminated cuz they love reading illuminated cuz they love reading illuminated cuz they love reading poetry. You say, "Now read a poem you poetry. You say, "Now read a poem you poetry. You say, "Now read a poem you don't like. It's terrible." They read don't like. It's terrible." They read don't like. It's terrible." They read some other poem, and goes down to zero. some other poem, and goes down to zero. some other poem, and goes down to zero. Then they'll say, "Listen, just take 2 Then they'll say, "Listen, just take 2 Then they'll say, "Listen, just take 2 minutes and write a new poem." minutes and write a new poem." minutes and write a new poem." Anything. Just scribble something down Anything. Just scribble something down Anything. Just scribble something down on paper, anything you like. People on paper, anything you like. People on paper, anything you like. People write down, and they say, "Now go in the write down, and they say, "Now go in the write down, and they say, "Now go in the machine. Now read the poem you wrote." machine. Now read the poem you wrote." machine. Now read the poem you wrote." Even if the person can admit that the Even if the person can admit that the Even if the person can admit that the poem they wrote is terrible, the brain poem they wrote is terrible, the brain poem they wrote is terrible, the brain lights up like they're reading Chaucer. lights up like they're reading Chaucer. lights up like they're reading Chaucer. You know, whatever that like No way. I You know, whatever that like No way. I You know, whatever that like No way. I have not heard of this. Okay. have not heard of this. Okay. have not heard of this. Okay. >> Because if it's your thing that you >> Because if it's your thing that you >> Because if it's your thing that you made, you can't help but have your ego made, you can't help but have your ego made, you can't help but have your ego get attached to it. It's the source of get attached to it. It's the source of get attached to it. It's the source of so much so many problems in our world. so much so many problems in our world. so much so many problems in our world. Think about how many sources of Think about how many sources of Think about how many sources of sacrilege are are caused by sacrilege are are caused by sacrilege are are caused by >> are laughing right now. It's like, yeah, >> are laughing right now. It's like, yeah, >> are laughing right now. It's like, yeah, you're really passionate about the ideas you're really passionate about the ideas you're really passionate about the ideas you came up with, aren't you? Yeah, just you came up with, aren't you? Yeah, just you came up with, aren't you? Yeah, just cuz it's your thing. And you know, this cuz it's your thing. And you know, this cuz it's your thing. And you know, this is like part of problem of the human is like part of problem of the human is like part of problem of the human condition, okay? So, it's not like some condition, okay? So, it's not like some condition, okay? So, it's not like some newfangled We're finding this is newfangled We're finding this is newfangled We're finding this is obviously over known for a long time, obviously over known for a long time, obviously over known for a long time, but it matters a lot when we're doing but it matters a lot when we're doing but it matters a lot when we're doing something new. Because when we fantasize something new. Because when we fantasize something new. Because when we fantasize about doing something new, about doing something new, about doing something new, it just the more we think about it, the it just the more we think about it, the it just the more we think about it, the better it goes.

better it goes. better it goes. Mhm. In our mind, even if at the Mhm. In our mind, even if at the Mhm. In our mind, even if at the beginning it was tentative, you're like, beginning it was tentative, you're like, beginning it was tentative, you're like, I'm not sure if this is a good idea, I'm not sure if this is a good idea, I'm not sure if this is a good idea, the more you think about it, the more the more you think about it, the more the more you think about it, the more you start to be like, yeah, you know you start to be like, yeah, you know you start to be like, yeah, you know what? This is a good idea. This is going what? This is a good idea. This is going what? This is a good idea. This is going to work. People are going to love it. to work. People are going to love it. to work. People are going to love it. And in the fantasy, we never have to And in the fantasy, we never have to And in the fantasy, we never have to make trade-offs. make trade-offs. make trade-offs. Mhm. So, it can be like, yeah, it'll be Mhm. So, it can be like, yeah, it'll be Mhm. So, it can be like, yeah, it'll be cheap, and everyone will show up, and cheap, and everyone will show up, and cheap, and everyone will show up, and they'll come back, and the retention's they'll come back, and the retention's they'll come back, and the retention's going to be really high, and the going to be really high, and the going to be really high, and the conversion's going to be really high. conversion's going to be really high. conversion's going to be really high. Everything's going to be great. And the Everything's going to be great. And the Everything's going to be great. And the reason why MVP is so important, reason why MVP is so important, reason why MVP is so important, especially if you have the resources of especially if you have the resources of especially if you have the resources of an established organization, is you an established organization, is you an established organization, is you don't have the automatic discipline of don't have the automatic discipline of don't have the automatic discipline of like scarcity. like scarcity. like scarcity. So, you can sometimes sustain these So, you can sometimes sustain these So, you can sometimes sustain these planning planning planning sessions for a long time. Think about sessions for a long time. Think about sessions for a long time. Think about how many projects you've thought about how many projects you've thought about how many projects you've thought about that, you know, that, you know, that, you know, take months or even years to come to take months or even years to come to take months or even years to come to fruition. fruition. fruition. Sometimes that's diligent hard work, but Sometimes that's diligent hard work, but Sometimes that's diligent hard work, but a lot of times that's a lot of just like a lot of times that's a lot of just like a lot of times that's a lot of just like building fantasy upon fantasy upon building fantasy upon fantasy upon building fantasy upon fantasy upon fantasy. And the whole idea of the MVP fantasy. And the whole idea of the MVP fantasy. And the whole idea of the MVP is just to let reality pierce that is just to let reality pierce that is just to let reality pierce that psychology psychology psychology sooner than later. sooner than later. sooner than later. So, you Something as simple as, okay, I So, you Something as simple as, okay, I So, you Something as simple as, okay, I want to do something for my whole want to do something for my whole want to do something for my whole congregation, right? Like, think about congregation, right? Like, think about congregation, right? Like, think about so many platforms. You have a whole so many platforms. You have a whole so many platforms. You have a whole community. You say, I want to I want to community. You say, I want to I want to community. You say, I want to I want to do something for everybody.

do something for everybody. do something for everybody. A lot of good businesses I work with who A lot of good businesses I work with who A lot of good businesses I work with who want to do something for every customer. want to do something for every customer. want to do something for every customer. It's like, great. On the way to every It's like, great. On the way to every It's like, great. On the way to every customer is one customer. customer is one customer. customer is one customer. Let's go do it for one customer. On the Let's go do it for one customer. On the Let's go do it for one customer. On the way to a million people are 10 people. way to a million people are 10 people. way to a million people are 10 people. And it's not I'm not saying you can't do And it's not I'm not saying you can't do And it's not I'm not saying you can't do a million people. And this is so many a million people. And this is so many a million people. And this is so many people like modern business because it's people like modern business because it's people like modern business because it's so growth-oriented, so growth-oriented, so growth-oriented, um we sometimes feel afraid to make it um we sometimes feel afraid to make it um we sometimes feel afraid to make it small for fear that it's going to If you small for fear that it's going to If you small for fear that it's going to If you start small, it will stay small. start small, it will stay small. start small, it will stay small. You know, I was talking about getting a You know, I was talking about getting a You know, I was talking about getting a million people. Now you're down talking million people. Now you're down talking million people. Now you're down talking about getting 10. I'm almost about getting 10. I'm almost about getting 10. I'm almost embarrassed. It's like, well, embarrassed. It's like, well, embarrassed. It's like, well, if you can't get 10, you certainly can't if you can't get 10, you certainly can't if you can't get 10, you certainly can't get a million. So, let's So, you And of get a million. So, let's So, you And of get a million. So, let's So, you And of course, then people say, well, you know, course, then people say, well, you know, course, then people say, well, you know, but it won't be as good with 10." That's but it won't be as good with 10." That's but it won't be as good with 10." That's true. true. true. But will it be not good at all? And a But will it be not good at all? And a But will it be not good at all? And a big a big part of the MVP goes back to big a big part of the MVP goes back to big a big part of the MVP goes back to that humility thing. We have to be that humility thing. We have to be that humility thing. We have to be willing to be embarrassed. willing to be embarrassed. willing to be embarrassed. So even if you say, "But it won't be So even if you say, "But it won't be So even if you say, "But it won't be high enough quality at that stage." high enough quality at that stage." high enough quality at that stage." We can still have a customer tell us We can still have a customer tell us We can still have a customer tell us it's not high quality. That's okay. it's not high quality. That's okay. it's not high quality. That's okay. We'll survive. Because And I can tell We'll survive. Because And I can tell We'll survive. Because And I can tell you a lot of stories like this of of you a lot of stories like this of of you a lot of stories like this of of startups and big companies who have done startups and big companies who have done startups and big companies who have done I'll tell you one that's a a I'll tell you one that's a a I'll tell you one that's a a funny story out of industry that maybe funny story out of industry that maybe funny story out of industry that maybe you'll be able to relate to.

you'll be able to relate to. you'll be able to relate to. I was working with a company that was I was working with a company that was I was working with a company that was making this um making this um making this um technology for the pharmaceutical technology for the pharmaceutical technology for the pharmaceutical industry. industry. industry. And it was like a way a better way of And it was like a way a better way of And it was like a way a better way of doing scientific experiments. doing scientific experiments. doing scientific experiments. And they were very excited about the And they were very excited about the And they were very excited about the robotics part of it. Because they were robotics part of it. Because they were robotics part of it. Because they were going to have This is a few years ago. going to have This is a few years ago. going to have This is a few years ago. They were going to have robots manning They were going to have robots manning They were going to have robots manning the stations instead of people. It was the stations instead of people. It was the stations instead of people. It was like, you know, that was what they were like, you know, that was what they were like, you know, that was what they were excited about. But it was not the only excited about. But it was not the only excited about. But it was not the only part of it. There were a lot of other part of it. There were a lot of other part of it. There were a lot of other elements to the science. elements to the science. elements to the science. And they kept putting off showing it to And they kept putting off showing it to And they kept putting off showing it to the pharmaceutical companies cuz they're the pharmaceutical companies cuz they're the pharmaceutical companies cuz they're like, "Those companies are really like, "Those companies are really like, "Those companies are really difficult customers. They have really difficult customers. They have really difficult customers. They have really high standards. They're not going to high standards. They're not going to high standards. They're not going to want to see want to see want to see something They're not going to see something They're not going to see something They're not going to see something if it's not perfect." And then something if it's not perfect." And then something if it's not perfect." And then I had I was coming in and I was trying I had I was coming in and I was trying I had I was coming in and I was trying to advise them, "Listen, let's do the to advise them, "Listen, let's do the to advise them, "Listen, let's do the MVP. How bad could it be?" And so MVP. How bad could it be?" And so MVP. How bad could it be?" And so anyway, it took a long time for them to anyway, it took a long time for them to anyway, it took a long time for them to be, "Okay, we're willing to do it. We'll be, "Okay, we're willing to do it. We'll be, "Okay, we're willing to do it. We'll build like a mock-up of the lab." They build like a mock-up of the lab." They build like a mock-up of the lab." They built a physical facility. And they're built a physical facility. And they're built a physical facility. And they're like, "Well, we'll do it with no like, "Well, we'll do it with no like, "Well, we'll do it with no robots." They were like, robots." They were like, robots." They were like, "I don't know. No robots, but we'll just "I don't know. No robots, but we'll just "I don't know. No robots, but we'll just do the basics and let a human do the do the basics and let a human do the do the basics and let a human do the steps. steps. steps. And we'll bring people in for the demo." And we'll bring people in for the demo." And we'll bring people in for the demo." And what was really interesting is they And what was really interesting is they And what was really interesting is they were afraid the customer wouldn't like were afraid the customer wouldn't like were afraid the customer wouldn't like it. In fact, when the customer came in, it. In fact, when the customer came in, it. In fact, when the customer came in, the customer didn't like it.

the customer didn't like it. the customer didn't like it. But not for the reason of the robots. But not for the reason of the robots. But not for the reason of the robots. Not a single customer was upset about Not a single customer was upset about Not a single customer was upset about the missing robots. They mentioned the missing robots. They mentioned the missing robots. They mentioned something like almost in passing. They something like almost in passing. They something like almost in passing. They were like, "This is a cool demo." And were like, "This is a cool demo." And were like, "This is a cool demo." And they're like, "Oh, would you like to buy they're like, "Oh, would you like to buy they're like, "Oh, would you like to buy this from us one day after we add the this from us one day after we add the this from us one day after we add the robots?" And they're like, "Oh, robots robots?" And they're like, "Oh, robots robots?" And they're like, "Oh, robots or no robots, we would never buy this in or no robots, we would never buy this in or no robots, we would never buy this in a million years." a million years." a million years." And they're like, "What? Why not?" "Oh, And they're like, "What? Why not?" "Oh, And they're like, "What? Why not?" "Oh, because this is causes a major IP because this is causes a major IP because this is causes a major IP licensing problem for us." licensing problem for us." licensing problem for us." So we can't have your technology. We So we can't have your technology. We So we can't have your technology. We would lose our I would lose our ability would lose our I would lose our ability would lose our I would lose our ability to patent the drug. Forget it. Like, to patent the drug. Forget it. Like, to patent the drug. Forget it. Like, it's a complete deal breaker. And it's a complete deal breaker. And it's a complete deal breaker. And they're like, "Why didn't you ever they're like, "Why didn't you ever they're like, "Why didn't you ever mention this before?" They've been mention this before?" They've been mention this before?" They've been meeting with these people forever. And meeting with these people forever. And meeting with these people forever. And they're like, "Well, you never asked." they're like, "Well, you never asked." they're like, "Well, you never asked." Isn't that Isn't that Isn't that >> But, you didn't think to ask cuz of >> But, you didn't think to ask cuz of >> But, you didn't think to ask cuz of course if you don't know the customer course if you don't know the customer course if you don't know the customer well enough, you don't even know what well enough, you don't even know what well enough, you don't even know what you don't know. So, the point of an MVP you don't know. So, the point of an MVP you don't know. So, the point of an MVP is to let yourself be embarrassed, but is to let yourself be embarrassed, but is to let yourself be embarrassed, but in the process to learn. And that's in the process to learn. And that's in the process to learn. And that's really the biggest lesson of Lean really the biggest lesson of Lean really the biggest lesson of Lean Startup is that in a high uncertainty Startup is that in a high uncertainty Startup is that in a high uncertainty situation, the unit of progress The way situation, the unit of progress The way situation, the unit of progress The way you know you're making progress is that you know you're making progress is that you know you're making progress is that you're learning. Call it validated you're learning. Call it validated you're learning. Call it validated learning. Learning that is true about learning. Learning that is true about learning. Learning that is true about whatever it is, whatever those leap of whatever it is, whatever those leap of whatever it is, whatever those leap of faith assumptions have to be for the faith assumptions have to be for the faith assumptions have to be for the thing to work. Well, that gets rid of thing to work. Well, that gets rid of thing to work. Well, that gets rid of the binary thing of oh, we tried that the binary thing of oh, we tried that the binary thing of oh, we tried that once and it doesn't work. Oh, yeah. That once and it doesn't work. Oh, yeah. That once and it doesn't work. Oh, yeah. That doesn't doesn't doesn't >> Right. Yeah, no way. And so many >> Right. Yeah, no way. And so many >> Right. Yeah, no way. And so many churches, organizations, they struggle churches, organizations, they struggle churches, organizations, they struggle with that because they're like with that because they're like with that because they're like you know, we put all this money into it, you know, we put all this money into it, you know, we put all this money into it, all this time to it. We launched it. It all this time to it. We launched it. It all this time to it. We launched it. It fizzled. We're never doing that again.

fizzled. We're never doing that again. fizzled. We're never doing that again. And what you're suggesting is more of an And what you're suggesting is more of an And what you're suggesting is more of an experimentative experimentative experimentative attitude where you just try it a little attitude where you just try it a little attitude where you just try it a little bit and away you go. bit and away you go. bit and away you go. What would you What would you What would you That That is a challenge, too, because That That is a challenge, too, because That That is a challenge, too, because you end up with some cost bias. You end you end up with some cost bias. You end you end up with some cost bias. You end up Mhm. Yeah. Uh as as one church leader up Mhm. Yeah. Uh as as one church leader up Mhm. Yeah. Uh as as one church leader says, um manufacturing energy. Well, we says, um manufacturing energy. Well, we says, um manufacturing energy. Well, we launched this last year and nobody's launched this last year and nobody's launched this last year and nobody's coming to it, but we just got to keep coming to it, but we just got to keep coming to it, but we just got to keep promoting it. Yeah. Keep promoting it. promoting it. Yeah. Keep promoting it. promoting it. Yeah. Keep promoting it. Keep promoting it. Keep promoting it. Keep promoting it. Keep promoting it. Keep promoting it. Keep promoting it. Yeah. You know, one of our sayings in Yeah. You know, one of our sayings in Yeah. You know, one of our sayings in our company is the internet doesn't lie our company is the internet doesn't lie our company is the internet doesn't lie um because you get real-time feedback. um because you get real-time feedback. um because you get real-time feedback. Like Nobody like Like Nobody like Like Nobody like >> The real-time feedback is the key. And >> The real-time feedback is the key. And >> The real-time feedback is the key. And so, people often ask me, "What is the so, people often ask me, "What is the so, people often ask me, "What is the difference between stubbornness and difference between stubbornness and difference between stubbornness and perseverance?" perseverance?" perseverance?" Mhm. Okay? Yes. That's the Mhm. Okay? Yes. That's the Mhm. Okay? Yes. That's the >> Stubbornness is I launched this thing >> Stubbornness is I launched this thing >> Stubbornness is I launched this thing and I have to keep launching it and keep and I have to keep launching it and keep and I have to keep launching it and keep promoting it because like maybe it's promoting it because like maybe it's promoting it because like maybe it's always darkest before the dawn. And I always darkest before the dawn. And I always darkest before the dawn. And I feel like in the movies that we we we feel like in the movies that we we we feel like in the movies that we we we have a culture. We love this kind of have a culture. We love this kind of have a culture. We love this kind of story format. So, like in the movies, story format. So, like in the movies, story format. So, like in the movies, you know, your plane is sinking sinking you know, your plane is sinking sinking you know, your plane is sinking sinking sinking. It's going to crash. And And sinking. It's going to crash. And And sinking. It's going to crash. And And right at the very last moment, you pull right at the very last moment, you pull right at the very last moment, you pull up on the stick and up on the stick and up on the stick and whoa, you just barely like the vast whoa, you just barely like the vast whoa, you just barely like the vast majority of planes in a tailspin hit the majority of planes in a tailspin hit the majority of planes in a tailspin hit the ground. Okay, like that's very unusual ground. Okay, like that's very unusual ground. Okay, like that's very unusual to have that just that perfect thing, to have that just that perfect thing, to have that just that perfect thing, right? And so in a real life I can right? And so in a real life I can right? And so in a real life I can attest in real life you hit the ground, attest in real life you hit the ground, attest in real life you hit the ground, okay? If you're if you're stubborn the okay? If you're if you're stubborn the okay? If you're if you're stubborn the same thing because they look the same thing because they look the same thing because they look the definition of insanity is doing the same definition of insanity is doing the same definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a thing over and over again expecting a thing over and over again expecting a different result. But then how can we different result. But then how can we different result. But then how can we reconcile that with the fact that we reconcile that with the fact that we reconcile that with the fact that we know that great entrepreneurs like have know that great entrepreneurs like have know that great entrepreneurs like have to persevere through many difficulties.

to persevere through many difficulties. to persevere through many difficulties. The key difference is the concept of the The key difference is the concept of the The key difference is the concept of the pivot. pivot. pivot. Mhm. What I I I don't mind if you tell Mhm. What I I I don't mind if you tell Mhm. What I I I don't mind if you tell me look the first thing didn't work I me look the first thing didn't work I me look the first thing didn't work I want to try again. I I think that's want to try again. I I think that's want to try again. I I think that's wonderful. And I generally I have a I wonderful. And I generally I have a I wonderful. And I generally I have a I have a three strikes before you're out have a three strikes before you're out have a three strikes before you're out rule. It's like never try anything one rule. It's like never try anything one rule. It's like never try anything one time and draw a conclusion. Always try time and draw a conclusion. Always try time and draw a conclusion. Always try at least three times, right? So so make at least three times, right? So so make at least three times, right? So so make sure you keep trying. But keep trying sure you keep trying. But keep trying sure you keep trying. But keep trying doesn't mean doing everything the same. doesn't mean doing everything the same. doesn't mean doing everything the same. The key is you have to be willing to The key is you have to be willing to The key is you have to be willing to make some changes each time so that you make some changes each time so that you make some changes each time so that you can see if those changes make any can see if those changes make any can see if those changes make any difference at all. difference at all. difference at all. So what happens is the first time like So what happens is the first time like So what happens is the first time like people are very lazy the first time. I people are very lazy the first time. I people are very lazy the first time. I know you don't think you are but like know you don't think you are but like know you don't think you are but like when you look back when you look at when you look back when you look at when you look back when you look at people who have been successful and you people who have been successful and you people who have been successful and you ask them about their first thing they're ask them about their first thing they're ask them about their first thing they're like oh yeah, we weren't very precise like oh yeah, we weren't very precise like oh yeah, we weren't very precise about who we were trying to reach. Oh, about who we were trying to reach. Oh, about who we were trying to reach. Oh, it's true. We didn't like we because in it's true. We didn't like we because in it's true. We didn't like we because in the fantasy everything's easy. So we the fantasy everything's easy. So we the fantasy everything's easy. So we kind of did it the easy way and then no kind of did it the easy way and then no kind of did it the easy way and then no one showed up, you know, I I tell I've one showed up, you know, I I tell I've one showed up, you know, I I tell I've told a lot of stories over the years of told a lot of stories over the years of told a lot of stories over the years of companies where like companies where like companies where like they kept trying to do something that they kept trying to do something that they kept trying to do something that wasn't working wasn't working wasn't wasn't working wasn't working wasn't wasn't working wasn't working wasn't working and and I told a story once of a working and and I told a story once of a working and and I told a story once of a company that company that company that they were working on like a civic they were working on like a civic they were working on like a civic project and it was just trying it was project and it was just trying it was project and it was just trying it was very high concept trying to get people very high concept trying to get people very high concept trying to get people to like re-engage and join the political to like re-engage and join the political to like re-engage and join the political process and whatever and it just wasn't process and whatever and it just wasn't process and whatever and it just wasn't working wasn't working wasn't working.

working wasn't working wasn't working. working wasn't working wasn't working. They'd spent 18 months with just nothing They'd spent 18 months with just nothing They'd spent 18 months with just nothing they tried was working. And out of they tried was working. And out of they tried was working. And out of desperation they were like, you know desperation they were like, you know desperation they were like, you know what? We're going to do something that what? We're going to do something that what? We're going to do something that people actually want to do. And they're people actually want to do. And they're people actually want to do. And they're like we're going to see if we can get like we're going to see if we can get like we're going to see if we can get people to come and buy a bunch of people to come and buy a bunch of people to come and buy a bunch of pizzas. pizzas. pizzas. And they did this coupon people would And they did this coupon people would And they did this coupon people would come to a pizza shop and buy and and come to a pizza shop and buy and and come to a pizza shop and buy and and like I can't remember now the number but like I can't remember now the number but like I can't remember now the number but I think it was like they sold, you know, I think it was like they sold, you know, I think it was like they sold, you know, 100 pizzas in a a 100 pizzas in a a 100 pizzas in a a When they had started the company if I When they had started the company if I When they had started the company if I told them they're going to have 100 told them they're going to have 100 told them they're going to have 100 pizzas, they would be like, "We don't pizzas, they would be like, "We don't pizzas, they would be like, "We don't want to like that's nothing. 100 pizzas, want to like that's nothing. 100 pizzas, want to like that's nothing. 100 pizzas, we're trying to get millions of people." we're trying to get millions of people." we're trying to get millions of people." But because they had been in the desert But because they had been in the desert But because they had been in the desert of all this drought of no progress, 100 of all this drought of no progress, 100 of all this drought of no progress, 100 people they I finally were able to people they I finally were able to people they I finally were able to understand the value of the thing that understand the value of the thing that understand the value of the thing that was staring them right in the face. And was staring them right in the face. And was staring them right in the face. And again, you don't conclude from one again, you don't conclude from one again, you don't conclude from one experiment, okay, then we're good. But experiment, okay, then we're good. But experiment, okay, then we're good. But they were like, "Ooh, if we get 100 they were like, "Ooh, if we get 100 they were like, "Ooh, if we get 100 people to do this, what else could we people to do this, what else could we people to do this, what else could we get 100 people to do?" Mhm. And then get 100 people to do?" Mhm. And then get 100 people to do?" Mhm. And then they were off to the races. So that's they were off to the races. So that's they were off to the races. So that's often what it takes is like you need often what it takes is like you need often what it takes is like you need that that initial kernel or seed or that that initial kernel or seed or that that initial kernel or seed or spark of something that's working, and spark of something that's working, and spark of something that's working, and then you can build on that. So our goal then you can build on that. So our goal then you can build on that. So our goal when we're experimenting is to adjust. when we're experimenting is to adjust. when we're experimenting is to adjust. Like maybe we take the same program, but Like maybe we take the same program, but Like maybe we take the same program, but we target it at a different community or we target it at a different community or we target it at a different community or audience. Maybe we keep the audience the audience. Maybe we keep the audience the audience. Maybe we keep the audience the same, but we change the marketing. Maybe same, but we change the marketing. Maybe same, but we change the marketing. Maybe we keep the marketing the same, but we we keep the marketing the same, but we we keep the marketing the same, but we change the actual on-site experience.

change the actual on-site experience. change the actual on-site experience. Like a classic thing in you know, in in Like a classic thing in you know, in in Like a classic thing in you know, in in situations where you have to get people situations where you have to get people situations where you have to get people in a physical space to do a thing in a physical space to do a thing in a physical space to do a thing is um people spend a lot of time is um people spend a lot of time is um people spend a lot of time designing the in-person experience. designing the in-person experience. designing the in-person experience. But if nobody comes, But if nobody comes, But if nobody comes, the problem can't be with the in-person the problem can't be with the in-person the problem can't be with the in-person experience experience experience because nobody experienced it. So we because nobody experienced it. So we because nobody experienced it. So we often [laughter] the experiment often often [laughter] the experiment often often [laughter] the experiment often will help us realize that the thing will help us realize that the thing will help us realize that the thing we're obsessing over is actually not in we're obsessing over is actually not in we're obsessing over is actually not in the right part of the logical chain of the right part of the logical chain of the right part of the logical chain of issues issues issues that we have to get people there. So that we have to get people there. So that we have to get people there. So then it's like, "Okay, we got to make a then it's like, "Okay, we got to make a then it's like, "Okay, we got to make a different promise." different promise." different promise." And sometimes people are like, "Well, And sometimes people are like, "Well, And sometimes people are like, "Well, I'm afraid if I make a promise and we I'm afraid if I make a promise and we I'm afraid if I make a promise and we get people there and we can't deliver get people there and we can't deliver get people there and we can't deliver that promise, isn't that going to be a that promise, isn't that going to be a that promise, isn't that going to be a problem?" Maybe. problem?" Maybe. problem?" Maybe. But we should be so lucky to have that But we should be so lucky to have that But we should be so lucky to have that problem. Exactly. That's a good problem problem. Exactly. That's a good problem problem. Exactly. That's a good problem to have. Then we can figure it out. And to have. Then we can figure it out. And to have. Then we can figure it out. And you know, a big part of the humility of you know, a big part of the humility of you know, a big part of the humility of entrepreneurship is being willing to entrepreneurship is being willing to entrepreneurship is being willing to apologize if you get it wrong. Hey, apologize if you get it wrong. Hey, apologize if you get it wrong. Hey, before we get back to the podcast, a before we get back to the podcast, a before we get back to the podcast, a quick personal note that I'm actually quick personal note that I'm actually quick personal note that I'm actually really excited to share with you. I've really excited to share with you. I've really excited to share with you. I've got a new book coming out September got a new book coming out September got a new book coming out September 15th. 15th. 15th. It's called AI in the Future Church, It's called AI in the Future Church, It's called AI in the Future Church, Make Your Ministry Irreplaceable in a Make Your Ministry Irreplaceable in a Make Your Ministry Irreplaceable in a world of artificial everything. And I world of artificial everything. And I world of artificial everything. And I want to tell you about why I wrote it.

want to tell you about why I wrote it. want to tell you about why I wrote it. So I've been in an AI rabbit hole for So I've been in an AI rabbit hole for So I've been in an AI rabbit hole for the last 2 years, deep deep study, and I the last 2 years, deep deep study, and I the last 2 years, deep deep study, and I believe believe believe that AI is and will send people running that AI is and will send people running that AI is and will send people running toward exactly what the church offers, toward exactly what the church offers, toward exactly what the church offers, real community, unchanging truth, real community, unchanging truth, real community, unchanging truth, connection that means something. And connection that means something. And connection that means something. And here's why, a world growing more here's why, a world growing more here's why, a world growing more artificial by the day is going to artificial by the day is going to artificial by the day is going to produce people starving for what's real. produce people starving for what's real. produce people starving for what's real. I mean, we already see this in the I mean, we already see this in the I mean, we already see this in the stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And stories of Gen Z flocking to church. And the church has been answering the the church has been answering the the church has been answering the question of what is real for over 2,000 question of what is real for over 2,000 question of what is real for over 2,000 years. So, your church could be years. So, your church could be years. So, your church could be perfectly positioned to deliver exactly perfectly positioned to deliver exactly perfectly positioned to deliver exactly that. You got to think way beyond that. You got to think way beyond that. You got to think way beyond prompts, and you got to see what's prompts, and you got to see what's prompts, and you got to see what's coming. And if you stop spectating and coming. And if you stop spectating and coming. And if you stop spectating and start leading, and if you make the start leading, and if you make the start leading, and if you make the shifts that this moment requires, shifts that this moment requires, shifts that this moment requires, I think you're going to see incredible I think you're going to see incredible I think you're going to see incredible ministry in the years ahead. So, in the ministry in the years ahead. So, in the ministry in the years ahead. So, in the book, I'm going to walk you through book, I'm going to walk you through book, I'm going to walk you through three shifts every church needs to make three shifts every church needs to make three shifts every church needs to make now, today, to be prepared for the now, today, to be prepared for the now, today, to be prepared for the future, no matter what AI ushers in.

future, no matter what AI ushers in. future, no matter what AI ushers in. Pre-order is open now, and I'd love for Pre-order is open now, and I'd love for Pre-order is open now, and I'd love for you to be among the very first to read you to be among the very first to read you to be among the very first to read it. So, you can learn more at it. So, you can learn more at it. So, you can learn more at careynieuwhof.com/ai careynieuwhof.com/ai careynieuwhof.com/ai or by searching for AI and the future or by searching for AI and the future or by searching for AI and the future church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or church on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or wherever you get your books. wherever you get your books. wherever you get your books. Both links are in the show notes. So, Both links are in the show notes. So, Both links are in the show notes. So, pre-order your copy today, and you'll be pre-order your copy today, and you'll be pre-order your copy today, and you'll be set to receive your copy immediately set to receive your copy immediately set to receive your copy immediately after it releases on September 15th, after it releases on September 15th, after it releases on September 15th, plus get some pretty cool bonuses. This plus get some pretty cool bonuses. This plus get some pretty cool bonuses. This episode is brought to you by Joni and episode is brought to you by Joni and episode is brought to you by Joni and Friends. Hey, before we get back to the Friends. Hey, before we get back to the Friends. Hey, before we get back to the conversation, I want to tell you about conversation, I want to tell you about conversation, I want to tell you about Joni and Friends. You probably know the Joni and Friends. You probably know the Joni and Friends. You probably know the name Joni Eareckson Tada. Well, what she name Joni Eareckson Tada. Well, what she name Joni Eareckson Tada. Well, what she and her team have built is genuinely and her team have built is genuinely and her team have built is genuinely remarkable. Joni and Friends exist to remarkable. Joni and Friends exist to remarkable. Joni and Friends exist to bring gospel hope and dignity to people bring gospel hope and dignity to people bring gospel hope and dignity to people living with disability, and they do it living with disability, and they do it living with disability, and they do it in a real, hands-on way. We're talking in a real, hands-on way. We're talking in a real, hands-on way. We're talking over 250,000 over 250,000 over 250,000 wheelchairs delivered internationally, wheelchairs delivered internationally, wheelchairs delivered internationally, tens of thousands of special needs tens of thousands of special needs tens of thousands of special needs families served at family retreats every families served at family retreats every families served at family retreats every year, and Bibles put into the hands of year, and Bibles put into the hands of year, and Bibles put into the hands of people who have never had access to one.

people who have never had access to one. people who have never had access to one. The church actually has a role to play The church actually has a role to play The church actually has a role to play here, and Joni and Friends is leading here, and Joni and Friends is leading here, and Joni and Friends is leading the way. So, if you want to get the way. So, if you want to get the way. So, if you want to get involved, give, or volunteer, or just involved, give, or volunteer, or just involved, give, or volunteer, or just learn more, head to jonifriends.org. learn more, head to jonifriends.org. learn more, head to jonifriends.org. That's j o n i andfriends.org. On that That's j o n i andfriends.org. On that That's j o n i andfriends.org. On that note of humility, I really wanted you note of humility, I really wanted you note of humility, I really wanted you dive into your latest project that dive into your latest project that dive into your latest project that you've spent years years years and years you've spent years years years and years you've spent years years years and years researching, and I think this is so You researching, and I think this is so You researching, and I think this is so You didn't write it with, you know, didn't write it with, you know, didn't write it with, you know, specifically for the church, but it's so specifically for the church, but it's so specifically for the church, but it's so true. I'm just going to name a few true. I'm just going to name a few true. I'm just going to name a few companies cuz you list dozens. FedMart, companies cuz you list dozens. FedMart, companies cuz you list dozens. FedMart, almost nobody's heard of it, but they almost nobody's heard of it, but they almost nobody's heard of it, but they heard its antecedent company. We can go heard its antecedent company. We can go heard its antecedent company. We can go into that if you want. Sears, Toys R Us, into that if you want. Sears, Toys R Us, into that if you want. Sears, Toys R Us, Polaroid, Cadbury, the chocolate Polaroid, Cadbury, the chocolate Polaroid, Cadbury, the chocolate company. company. company. >> Oh, poor old Cadbury, yeah. >> Oh, poor old Cadbury, yeah. >> Oh, poor old Cadbury, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. All of these were once great >> Oh, yeah. All of these were once great >> Oh, yeah. All of these were once great companies, and I'm fascinated. My companies, and I'm fascinated. My companies, and I'm fascinated. My favorite Jim Collins book is Good to favorite Jim Collins book is Good to favorite Jim Collins book is Good to Great. He came on the show, and he says Great. He came on the show, and he says Great. He came on the show, and he says nobody ever asked me to talk about it Or nobody ever asked me to talk about it Or nobody ever asked me to talk about it Or not Good to Great, sorry. How the Mighty not Good to Great, sorry. How the Mighty not Good to Great, sorry. How the Mighty Fall. Yeah. Fall. Yeah. Fall. Yeah. >> He's known for Good to Great. How the >> He's known for Good to Great. How the >> He's known for Good to Great. How the Mighty Fall is my favorite book. He came Mighty Fall is my favorite book. He came Mighty Fall is my favorite book. He came on this podcast to talk about that on this podcast to talk about that on this podcast to talk about that because he says nobody's ever asked me because he says nobody's ever asked me because he says nobody's ever asked me about this. So, I'm fascinated because about this. So, I'm fascinated because about this. So, I'm fascinated because you look at the church, churches that 30 you look at the church, churches that 30 you look at the church, churches that 30 years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago, years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago, years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago, packed.

packed. packed. Now down to like 30 people, 40 people, Now down to like 30 people, 40 people, Now down to like 30 people, 40 people, 100 people. 100 people. 100 people. >> Um I think the average church in America >> Um I think the average church in America >> Um I think the average church in America now is 67 people, and now is 67 people, and now is 67 people, and the the the giga churches and the mega the the the giga churches and the mega the the the giga churches and the mega churches mask that. But like there's a churches mask that. But like there's a churches mask that. But like there's a lot of limping happening in the church, lot of limping happening in the church, lot of limping happening in the church, and the mission isn't done. So, that's and the mission isn't done. So, that's and the mission isn't done. So, that's why I was really excited to have this why I was really excited to have this why I was really excited to have this conversation because those were all conversation because those were all conversation because those were all great companies that a lot of us great companies that a lot of us great companies that a lot of us remember either on the tail end of their remember either on the tail end of their remember either on the tail end of their glory days, glory days, glory days, and you're tracking why do once great and you're tracking why do once great and you're tracking why do once great companies How do they lose their companies How do they lose their companies How do they lose their mission? How do they just become a mission? How do they just become a mission? How do they just become a shadow of themselves? So, pick a pick a shadow of themselves? So, pick a pick a shadow of themselves? So, pick a pick a company, one I mentioned or another one, company, one I mentioned or another one, company, one I mentioned or another one, and take us under the hood. Let me tell and take us under the hood. Let me tell and take us under the hood. Let me tell Let me start with a very secular one, Let me start with a very secular one, Let me start with a very secular one, and then then we can talk about like and then then we can talk about like and then then we can talk about like like companies like Cadbury like there's like companies like Cadbury like there's like companies like Cadbury like there's a religious component to it that's a religious component to it that's a religious component to it that's actually really fascinating. But but actually really fascinating. But but actually really fascinating. But but let's take [clears throat] FedMart. let's take [clears throat] FedMart. let's take [clears throat] FedMart. FedMart is like the canonical simple FedMart is like the canonical simple FedMart is like the canonical simple example because today Sol Price I think example because today Sol Price I think example because today Sol Price I think is kind of fallen out of the business is kind of fallen out of the business is kind of fallen out of the business lexicon but in his day he was quite lexicon but in his day he was quite lexicon but in his day he was quite famous. He's definitely the father of famous. He's definitely the father of famous. He's definitely the father of modern retail. And everybody knows who modern retail. And everybody knows who modern retail. And everybody knows who he is once you hear the story you're he is once you hear the story you're he is once you hear the story you're going to be like oh that guy started going to be like oh that guy started going to be like oh that guy started FedMart.

FedMart. FedMart. >> guy yes. Yeah for people to understand >> guy yes. Yeah for people to understand >> guy yes. Yeah for people to understand how influential he was when Sam Walton how influential he was when Sam Walton how influential he was when Sam Walton started Walmart the name Walmart was an started Walmart the name Walmart was an started Walmart the name Walmart was an homage to FedMart. homage to FedMart. homage to FedMart. Okay. Because he learned so much from Okay. Because he learned so much from Okay. Because he learned so much from Sol Price. Yeah that's like he was a Sol Price. Yeah that's like he was a Sol Price. Yeah that's like he was a very influential figure in modern very influential figure in modern very influential figure in modern business. So but what interesting to me business. So but what interesting to me business. So but what interesting to me is as an entrepreneur before he became is as an entrepreneur before he became is as an entrepreneur before he became an entrepreneur he was trained as a an entrepreneur he was trained as a an entrepreneur he was trained as a lawyer. lawyer. lawyer. And when you're a lawyer you have what's And when you're a lawyer you have what's And when you're a lawyer you have what's called a fiduciary duty to your client. called a fiduciary duty to your client. called a fiduciary duty to your client. You do. So that means you have to put You do. So that means you have to put You do. So that means you have to put the client's interest before your own. the client's interest before your own. the client's interest before your own. It's funny like we have this It's funny like we have this It's funny like we have this >> Former attorney here you're talking >> Former attorney here you're talking >> Former attorney here you're talking >> Yeah yeah like thinking about people >> Yeah yeah like thinking about people >> Yeah yeah like thinking about people like the pop culture like the pop culture like the pop culture image of an attorney doesn't exactly image of an attorney doesn't exactly image of an attorney doesn't exactly always remember that like at the end of always remember that like at the end of always remember that like at the end of the day the attorney's a service the day the attorney's a service the day the attorney's a service profession and you have to put you're profession and you have to put you're profession and you have to put you're required to put the the client's required to put the the client's required to put the the client's interest before your own. interest before your own. interest before your own. So when he became a retailer he asked So when he became a retailer he asked So when he became a retailer he asked himself this question who's my client? himself this question who's my client? himself this question who's my client? And he said my customer is my client. I And he said my customer is my client. I And he said my customer is my client. I have a fiduciary duty to the client. have a fiduciary duty to the client. have a fiduciary duty to the client. That meant he would he was scrupulously That meant he would he was scrupulously That meant he would he was scrupulously honest and fair in his business honest and fair in his business honest and fair in his business dealings. dealings. dealings. I tell a story in the book about a time I tell a story in the book about a time I tell a story in the book about a time when he asked one of his vendors for a when he asked one of his vendors for a when he asked one of his vendors for a discount on a certain product so that it discount on a certain product so that it discount on a certain product so that it would sell more. And when it didn't sell would sell more. And when it didn't sell would sell more. And when it didn't sell as many units as he thought he he made as many units as he thought he he made as many units as he thought he he made his buyer go back and give the money his buyer go back and give the money his buyer go back and give the money back to the vendor even though he had back to the vendor even though he had back to the vendor even though he had absolutely no reason that he had to do absolutely no reason that he had to do absolutely no reason that he had to do that. He paid above market wages.

that. He paid above market wages. that. He paid above market wages. One of my favorite stories about him is One of my favorite stories about him is One of my favorite stories about him is that when competitors would try to drive that when competitors would try to drive that when competitors would try to drive him out of business by selling products him out of business by selling products him out of business by selling products below cost below cost below cost to steal his customers away from him he to steal his customers away from him he to steal his customers away from him he would put their own advertisements up in would put their own advertisements up in would put their own advertisements up in his store and put up signs and say don't his store and put up signs and say don't his store and put up signs and say don't buy this for me cuz you can get it buy this for me cuz you can get it buy this for me cuz you can get it cheaper down the street. cheaper down the street. cheaper down the street. He put the customer's interest before He put the customer's interest before He put the customer's interest before his own and as a result customers his own and as a result customers his own and as a result customers trusted him and they loved to shop at trusted him and they loved to shop at trusted him and they loved to shop at FedMart. You just it was the one store FedMart. You just it was the one store FedMart. You just it was the one store that you didn't feel like you were being that you didn't feel like you were being that you didn't feel like you were being cheated. This is back in the '50s. cheated. This is back in the '50s. cheated. This is back in the '50s. So, the company grew and thrived under So, the company grew and thrived under So, the company grew and thrived under this ethos. this ethos. this ethos. He practiced capped margins, by the way. He practiced capped margins, by the way. He practiced capped margins, by the way. He wouldn't mark up a product more than He wouldn't mark up a product more than He wouldn't mark up a product more than 14%. So, just he was a man of really of 14%. So, just he was a man of really of 14%. So, just he was a man of really of high integrity, and he built an high integrity, and he built an high integrity, and he built an organization that was aligned to those organization that was aligned to those organization that was aligned to those practices. practices. practices. So, what happened? The company went So, what happened? The company went So, what happened? The company went public. His investors made a lot of public. His investors made a lot of public. His investors made a lot of money, but no matter how much money he money, but no matter how much money he money, but no matter how much money he made for his investors, it was never made for his investors, it was never made for his investors, it was never enough. enough. enough. They always wanted more. They felt like They always wanted more. They felt like They always wanted more. They felt like he was {quote} "wasting money" paying he was {quote} "wasting money" paying he was {quote} "wasting money" paying employees more money than he had to. So, employees more money than he had to. So, employees more money than he had to. So, whereas he believed in low prices and whereas he believed in low prices and whereas he believed in low prices and high wages, they wanted high prices and high wages, they wanted high prices and high wages, they wanted high prices and low wages. They wanted rapid expansion, low wages. They wanted rapid expansion, low wages. They wanted rapid expansion, all the usual things you see in our all the usual things you see in our all the usual things you see in our modern modern modern >> Very familiar.

>> Very familiar. >> Very familiar. So, he hated all that, and he decided he So, he hated all that, and he decided he So, he hated all that, and he decided he would take the company private. So, he would take the company private. So, he would take the company private. So, he arranged with new investors to take the arranged with new investors to take the arranged with new investors to take the company private. They owned 51%, he company private. They owned 51%, he company private. They owned 51%, he owned 49%, but it didn't solve his owned 49%, but it didn't solve his owned 49%, but it didn't solve his problem because the new investors, the problem because the new investors, the problem because the new investors, the second they were on his board, they also second they were on his board, they also second they were on his board, they also wanted faster growth Yeah. and more more wanted faster growth Yeah. and more more wanted faster growth Yeah. and more more conventional retail. They were loyal to conventional retail. They were loyal to conventional retail. They were loyal to the best practices in retail. They the best practices in retail. They the best practices in retail. They didn't like how different everything at didn't like how different everything at didn't like how different everything at FedMart was. FedMart was. FedMart was. All this came to a head one day in 1975 All this came to a head one day in 1975 All this came to a head one day in 1975 after he had been building the company after he had been building the company after he had been building the company for 20 years. for 20 years. for 20 years. He comes into work one day, and the He comes into work one day, and the He comes into work one day, and the locks on his door have been changed. Sol locks on his door have been changed. Sol locks on his door have been changed. Sol Price doesn't work at FedMart anymore. Price doesn't work at FedMart anymore. Price doesn't work at FedMart anymore. So, what happened? The investors got So, what happened? The investors got So, what happened? The investors got what they wanted. what they wanted. what they wanted. So, if you ever know the parable of the So, if you ever know the parable of the So, if you ever know the parable of the uh goose that laid the golden egg? Mhm. uh goose that laid the golden egg? Mhm. uh goose that laid the golden egg? Mhm. And you know what's about to happen. And you know what's about to happen. And you know what's about to happen. They converted FedMart to traditional They converted FedMart to traditional They converted FedMart to traditional best practices, and within 7 years it best practices, and within 7 years it best practices, and within 7 years it was bankrupt. was bankrupt. was bankrupt. Because they had betrayed the trust Because they had betrayed the trust Because they had betrayed the trust that the company was built for. Just that the company was built for. Just that the company was built for. Just became like everybody else, nobody became like everybody else, nobody became like everybody else, nobody wanted to shop there anymore. wanted to shop there anymore. wanted to shop there anymore. Sol Price, classic entrepreneur, he took Sol Price, classic entrepreneur, he took Sol Price, classic entrepreneur, he took 2 weeks off to lick his wounds after his 2 weeks off to lick his wounds after his 2 weeks off to lick his wounds after his betrayal, and then he leased the office betrayal, and then he leased the office betrayal, and then he leased the office upstairs from FedMart headquarters, and upstairs from FedMart headquarters, and upstairs from FedMart headquarters, and started again.

started again. started again. He built a new company called Price He built a new company called Price He built a new company called Price Club. Now, most people have never heard Club. Now, most people have never heard Club. Now, most people have never heard of Price Club and that's of Price Club and that's of Price Club and that's >> remember Price Club. >> remember Price Club. >> remember Price Club. >> Yeah, if you I was grow When I grew up >> Yeah, if you I was grow When I grew up >> Yeah, if you I was grow When I grew up in San Diego as a kid, Price Club was a in San Diego as a kid, Price Club was a in San Diego as a kid, Price Club was a local fixture, Fedmart was a distant local fixture, Fedmart was a distant local fixture, Fedmart was a distant memory. memory. memory. But, But, But, the reason why people have not heard of the reason why people have not heard of the reason why people have not heard of Price Club, it's actually because one of Price Club, it's actually because one of Price Club, it's actually because one of the people who left Fedmart to go to the people who left Fedmart to go to the people who left Fedmart to go to Price Club with Sol was a guy named Jim Price Club with Sol was a guy named Jim Price Club with Sol was a guy named Jim Sinegal. Now, Jim Sinegal had worked his Sinegal. Now, Jim Sinegal had worked his Sinegal. Now, Jim Sinegal had worked his way up from stock boy to executive at way up from stock boy to executive at way up from stock boy to executive at Price Club Price Club Price Club and ultimately decided to leave Price and ultimately decided to leave Price and ultimately decided to leave Price Club and start his own company following Club and start his own company following Club and start his own company following the Fedmart model. And when that company the Fedmart model. And when that company the Fedmart model. And when that company ultimately merged with Price Club, it ultimately merged with Price Club, it ultimately merged with Price Club, it created a company you have heard of, created a company you have heard of, created a company you have heard of, which is Costco, the $400 billion retail which is Costco, the $400 billion retail which is Costco, the $400 billion retail behemoth which even to this day combines behemoth which even to this day combines behemoth which even to this day combines the ethos of Sol Price, capped margins, the ethos of Sol Price, capped margins, the ethos of Sol Price, capped margins, fiduciary duty to the customer, all fiduciary duty to the customer, all fiduciary duty to the customer, all those elements are still in place, but those elements are still in place, but those elements are still in place, but combined it with a governance fortress, combined it with a governance fortress, combined it with a governance fortress, a set of of organizational structure a set of of organizational structure a set of of organizational structure practices that insulate it from practices that insulate it from practices that insulate it from temptation and from outside pressure. temptation and from outside pressure. temptation and from outside pressure. And so, no matter how many times people And so, no matter how many times people And so, no matter how many times people have tried to pressure Costco to abandon have tried to pressure Costco to abandon have tried to pressure Costco to abandon its principles, it has stood firm now its principles, it has stood firm now its principles, it has stood firm now for 40 straight years.

for 40 straight years. for 40 straight years. Isn't that fascinating? And so, to your Isn't that fascinating? And so, to your Isn't that fascinating? And so, to your point, it becomes a values-based point, it becomes a values-based point, it becomes a values-based mission. And having been fired once, mission. And having been fired once, mission. And having been fired once, he's now got all the legalities in place he's now got all the legalities in place he's now got all the legalities in place that he can't have an activist investor that he can't have an activist investor that he can't have an activist investor take over the company, etc., etc. take over the company, etc., etc. take over the company, etc., etc. >> My understanding, I'm not a student of >> My understanding, I'm not a student of >> My understanding, I'm not a student of Costco, but like you can make a career Costco, but like you can make a career Costco, but like you can make a career at Costco. at Costco. at Costco. Like you can start there when you're 20, Like you can start there when you're 20, Like you can start there when you're 20, retire there when you're 60 or whatever retire there when you're 60 or whatever retire there when you're 60 or whatever and have a decent life and a decent and have a decent life and a decent and have a decent life and a decent family, decent income, and um and they family, decent income, and um and they family, decent income, and um and they make deals with their suppliers so that, make deals with their suppliers so that, make deals with their suppliers so that, yeah, the price is going to be shaved yeah, the price is going to be shaved yeah, the price is going to be shaved down, but the customer's going to down, but the customer's going to down, but the customer's going to benefit. Yeah, that it it really is that benefit. Yeah, that it it really is that benefit. Yeah, that it it really is that kind of place. There are There are kind of place. There are There are kind of place. There are There are They've had I think four CEOs now. Just They've had I think four CEOs now. Just They've had I think four CEOs now. Just like Jim Sinegal worked his way up from like Jim Sinegal worked his way up from like Jim Sinegal worked his way up from stock boy, they promote from within. stock boy, they promote from within. stock boy, they promote from within. They build um the company pays the kind They build um the company pays the kind They build um the company pays the kind of wages you can you can really build of wages you can you can really build of wages you can you can really build your life and career and family around. your life and career and family around. your life and career and family around. And so they have a level of loyalty on And so they have a level of loyalty on And so they have a level of loyalty on both the customer and the employee side both the customer and the employee side both the customer and the employee side that's unprecedented. And what's so that's unprecedented. And what's so that's unprecedented. And what's so interesting to me is that we live in the interesting to me is that we live in the interesting to me is that we live in the era of what's called shareholder era of what's called shareholder era of what's called shareholder primacy, which is kind of a fancy word primacy, which is kind of a fancy word primacy, which is kind of a fancy word for the fact that money, finance has has for the fact that money, finance has has for the fact that money, finance has has infected every sphere of modern life.

infected every sphere of modern life. infected every sphere of modern life. Our grandparents really saw spheres as Our grandparents really saw spheres as Our grandparents really saw spheres as separate. They would have seen religion separate. They would have seen religion separate. They would have seen religion and civic and like and journalism and and civic and like and journalism and and civic and like and journalism and sports and commerce as like separate sports and commerce as like separate sports and commerce as like separate spheres. And now everything's all about spheres. And now everything's all about spheres. And now everything's all about money everywhere you look, including in money everywhere you look, including in money everywhere you look, including in a lot of nonprofits who are all just a lot of nonprofits who are all just a lot of nonprofits who are all just like trying to raise money and like like trying to raise money and like like trying to raise money and like non-stop. And if you pause and ask why non-stop. And if you pause and ask why non-stop. And if you pause and ask why are we raising money? It's like we're are we raising money? It's like we're are we raising money? It's like we're raising money to raise more money. raising money to raise more money. raising money to raise more money. It's like but but why? Like what is the It's like but but why? Like what is the It's like but but why? Like what is the purpose? What is So we've lost a very purpose? What is So we've lost a very purpose? What is So we've lost a very essential idea, which is that essential idea, which is that essential idea, which is that organizations ought to be incorporated organizations ought to be incorporated organizations ought to be incorporated to do a specific thing, to have a to do a specific thing, to have a to do a specific thing, to have a mission or purpose. And although we talk mission or purpose. And although we talk mission or purpose. And although we talk a lot about mission statements, a lot about mission statements, a lot about mission statements, most organizations actually really don't most organizations actually really don't most organizations actually really don't have a I don't have a mission at all. have a I don't have a mission at all. have a I don't have a mission at all. They're just about enriching themselves, They're just about enriching themselves, They're just about enriching themselves, which I don't think that doesn't qualify which I don't think that doesn't qualify which I don't think that doesn't qualify >> becomes the mission. Growth becomes the >> becomes the mission. Growth becomes the >> becomes the mission. Growth becomes the mission and that's it. mission and that's it. mission and that's it. >> be bigger and better than we were last >> be bigger and better than we were last >> be bigger and better than we were last quarter or last year. quarter or last year. quarter or last year. >> why do these organizations fall into >> why do these organizations fall into >> why do these organizations fall into moral crisis? moral crisis? moral crisis? It's because doing the right thing shows It's because doing the right thing shows It's because doing the right thing shows up in the spreadsheet as ROI negative by up in the spreadsheet as ROI negative by up in the spreadsheet as ROI negative by definition. Here's what I mean. Costco, definition. Here's what I mean. Costco, definition. Here's what I mean. Costco, for example, pays its suppliers more for example, pays its suppliers more for example, pays its suppliers more fairly than its competitors, meaning fairly than its competitors, meaning fairly than its competitors, meaning they pay them earlier and and on more they pay them earlier and and on more they pay them earlier and and on more friendly terms than almost anyone else friendly terms than almost anyone else friendly terms than almost anyone else in retail. If I'm a finance professional in retail. If I'm a finance professional in retail. If I'm a finance professional and I show up with my spreadsheet and I and I show up with my spreadsheet and I and I show up with my spreadsheet and I say, "Excuse me, say, "Excuse me, say, "Excuse me, what is the ROI of this policy?"

what is the ROI of this policy?" what is the ROI of this policy?" You say, "Well, the costs are tangible. You say, "Well, the costs are tangible. You say, "Well, the costs are tangible. It's very obvious what the cost is. I It's very obvious what the cost is. I It's very obvious what the cost is. I could make more money if I was a little could make more money if I was a little could make more money if I was a little bit more um bit more um bit more um a little bit more aggressive with my a little bit more aggressive with my a little bit more aggressive with my terms." Well, what is the return on that terms." Well, what is the return on that terms." Well, what is the return on that investment? Well, it's intangible. The investment? Well, it's intangible. The investment? Well, it's intangible. The trust and partnership I get with my trust and partnership I get with my trust and partnership I get with my suppliers is very valuable. It's suppliers is very valuable. It's suppliers is very valuable. It's actually I would say one of the most actually I would say one of the most actually I would say one of the most valuable assets in the world today that valuable assets in the world today that valuable assets in the world today that is so underrated. Trustworthiness is an is so underrated. Trustworthiness is an is so underrated. Trustworthiness is an asset. But because we don't measure that asset. But because we don't measure that asset. But because we don't measure that asset, asset, asset, the finance people say, "Well, I don't I the finance people say, "Well, I don't I the finance people say, "Well, I don't I don't see the benefit. Why don't we be a don't see the benefit. Why don't we be a don't see the benefit. Why don't we be a little bit more aggressive? Why don't we little bit more aggressive? Why don't we little bit more aggressive? Why don't we do what we can get away with?" And And do what we can get away with?" And And do what we can get away with?" And And because we live in a hyper-polarized because we live in a hyper-polarized because we live in a hyper-polarized culture, we tend to spend all our energy culture, we tend to spend all our energy culture, we tend to spend all our energy spending time talking about what should spending time talking about what should spending time talking about what should organizations be allowed to do or not organizations be allowed to do or not organizations be allowed to do or not do. do. do. An important question. An important question. An important question. But unfortunately not the only question. But unfortunately not the only question. But unfortunately not the only question. We spend very little time talking about We spend very little time talking about We spend very little time talking about what should the leaders of organizations what should the leaders of organizations what should the leaders of organizations What should we What ought we to want to What should we What ought we to want to What should we What ought we to want to do? do? do? Given the freedom to choose, what should Given the freedom to choose, what should Given the freedom to choose, what should we choose? And I just think we are in a we choose? And I just think we are in a we choose? And I just think we are in a degraded time when we can no longer say degraded time when we can no longer say degraded time when we can no longer say that we should choose to do the right that we should choose to do the right that we should choose to do the right thing. In fact, a lot of people don't thing. In fact, a lot of people don't thing. In fact, a lot of people don't think that kind of language has any think that kind of language has any think that kind of language has any place in organizations. Even in place in organizations. Even in place in organizations. Even in organizations that are nominally very organizations that are nominally very organizations that are nominally very mission-driven, people say, "Well, you mission-driven, people say, "Well, you mission-driven, people say, "Well, you got to be serious." Being serious about got to be serious." Being serious about got to be serious." Being serious about business means being run by the business means being run by the business means being run by the spreadsheet, being showing your spreadsheet, being showing your spreadsheet, being showing your obeisance to the finance values that obeisance to the finance values that obeisance to the finance values that drive our economy. And part of my goal drive our economy. And part of my goal drive our economy. And part of my goal with this book is for us to say no more with this book is for us to say no more with this book is for us to say no more of that.

of that. of that. Eric, where does that come from in your Eric, where does that come from in your Eric, where does that come from in your life? life? life? Where does this come Where does this come Where does this come >> moral compass come from? I'm I'm very >> moral compass come from? I'm I'm very >> moral compass come from? I'm I'm very blessed. I come from a family of blessed. I come from a family of blessed. I come from a family of doctors. Ah. So, compared to them, my doctors. Ah. So, compared to them, my doctors. Ah. So, compared to them, my work is They've always seen what I do as work is They've always seen what I do as work is They've always seen what I do as somewhat disreputable. You know, like I somewhat disreputable. You know, like I somewhat disreputable. You know, like I was a computer programmer and I went was a computer programmer and I went was a computer programmer and I went into business and did this stuff. And into business and did this stuff. And into business and did this stuff. And they're, you know, they really believed they're, you know, they really believed they're, you know, they really believed in being of service in a much more in being of service in a much more in being of service in a much more visceral, much more direct way. But this visceral, much more direct way. But this visceral, much more direct way. But this is, you know, this is always how I felt is, you know, this is always how I felt is, you know, this is always how I felt I felt called to do it. But I was very I I felt called to do it. But I was very I I felt called to do it. But I was very I was lucky to get a liberal arts was lucky to get a liberal arts was lucky to get a liberal arts education from them to be grounded in a education from them to be grounded in a education from them to be grounded in a in a very like specific feeling of in a very like specific feeling of in a very like specific feeling of morality. And actually, you know, just I morality. And actually, you know, just I morality. And actually, you know, just I grew up at a time, you know, as so many grew up at a time, you know, as so many grew up at a time, you know, as so many of us did, when religious um of us did, when religious um of us did, when religious um institutional affiliation was in institutional affiliation was in institutional affiliation was in decline. decline. decline. So, families more and more were forced So, families more and more were forced So, families more and more were forced to um find their own moral path. Not to um find their own moral path. Not to um find their own moral path. Not necessarily taking it for granted that necessarily taking it for granted that necessarily taking it for granted that you would be part of a religious you would be part of a religious you would be part of a religious community that would provide that that community that would provide that that community that would provide that that framework for you. So, I'm I feel like framework for you. So, I'm I feel like framework for you. So, I'm I feel like that you you roll the dice in the cosmic that you you roll the dice in the cosmic that you you roll the dice in the cosmic lottery of where you're going to be lottery of where you're going to be lottery of where you're going to be born, and I was born into a family that born, and I was born into a family that born, and I was born into a family that had that had a strong sense of values, had that had a strong sense of values, had that had a strong sense of values, which I which which I inherited. And you which I which which I inherited. And you which I which which I inherited. And you know, now I try my best to know, now I try my best to know, now I try my best to to live my life that way. But, what's to live my life that way. But, what's to live my life that way. But, what's interesting is I wanted to get away from interesting is I wanted to get away from interesting is I wanted to get away from all that. I didn't want to be a doctor.

all that. I didn't want to be a doctor. all that. I didn't want to be a doctor. You know, I got I was I was excited to You know, I got I was I was excited to You know, I got I was I was excited to me business was exciting, technology was me business was exciting, technology was me business was exciting, technology was exciting partly because it was exciting partly because it was exciting partly because it was different, it was new, it was not different, it was new, it was not different, it was new, it was not constrained by all these old ideas about constrained by all these old ideas about constrained by all these old ideas about the past. Um but, in college I studied the past. Um but, in college I studied the past. Um but, in college I studied philosophy. philosophy. philosophy. And I really like I cared a lot about And I really like I cared a lot about And I really like I cared a lot about ideas. I wanted to know the truth. That ideas. I wanted to know the truth. That ideas. I wanted to know the truth. That was always a big part of my life. And was always a big part of my life. And was always a big part of my life. And one of the things that really struck me one of the things that really struck me one of the things that really struck me in is I got more and more into my in is I got more and more into my in is I got more and more into my business career is how many of these business career is how many of these business career is how many of these discussions that we're having in discussions that we're having in discussions that we're having in business are treated like business are treated like business are treated like like nice to have. Like the dessert you like nice to have. Like the dessert you like nice to have. Like the dessert you eat after you you know, after you eat eat after you you know, after you eat eat after you you know, after you eat your vegetables of making money and your vegetables of making money and your vegetables of making money and being serious, so then you can have a being serious, so then you can have a being serious, so then you can have a little mission or purpose like sprinkled little mission or purpose like sprinkled little mission or purpose like sprinkled on top. Even in nominally mission-driven on top. Even in nominally mission-driven on top. Even in nominally mission-driven organizations, we have unconsciously organizations, we have unconsciously organizations, we have unconsciously taken in this finance-driven thinking. taken in this finance-driven thinking. taken in this finance-driven thinking. And what I started to notice is like, And what I started to notice is like, And what I started to notice is like, wait a minute, these betrayals like at wait a minute, these betrayals like at wait a minute, these betrayals like at Fedmart or Sears or Cadbury, Fedmart or Sears or Cadbury, Fedmart or Sears or Cadbury, these betrayals are not just morally these betrayals are not just morally these betrayals are not just morally wrong, they're also economically wrong, they're also economically wrong, they're also economically self-destructive. self-destructive. self-destructive. So, it made me Ethics is good for So, it made me Ethics is good for So, it made me Ethics is good for business. It's really good for business, business. It's really good for business, business. It's really good for business, actually. And and these other betrayals actually. And and these other betrayals actually. And and these other betrayals are really bad for business. And I are really bad for business. And I are really bad for business. And I started to ask myself if the market started to ask myself if the market started to ask myself if the market supposedly rewards value creation, supposedly rewards value creation, supposedly rewards value creation, why is Fedmart not the like why is why is Fedmart not the like why is why is Fedmart not the like why is Fedmart the rule, not the exception? Why Fedmart the rule, not the exception? Why Fedmart the rule, not the exception? Why is this happening over and over again?

is this happening over and over again? is this happening over and over again? And and so, that like that was And and so, that like that was And and so, that like that was interesting to me that I kind of got interesting to me that I kind of got interesting to me that I kind of got into this moral topic through economics, into this moral topic through economics, into this moral topic through economics, through the value creation of these through the value creation of these through the value creation of these companies. And I think I'm very lucky, I companies. And I think I'm very lucky, I companies. And I think I'm very lucky, I feel like to have been grounded in my feel like to have been grounded in my feel like to have been grounded in my education and in my family in this education and in my family in this education and in my family in this ancient wisdom because until very ancient wisdom because until very ancient wisdom because until very recently, recently, recently, it would have been considered like very it would have been considered like very it would have been considered like very obvious to people that there were better obvious to people that there were better obvious to people that there were better and worse ways to make money, like moral and worse ways to make money, like moral and worse ways to make money, like moral ways and immoral ways. ways and immoral ways. ways and immoral ways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And the immoral ways are not just wrong >> And the immoral ways are not just wrong >> And the immoral ways are not just wrong in the sense of being um bad for your, in the sense of being um bad for your, in the sense of being um bad for your, you know, your spirit. Like they're you know, your spirit. Like they're you know, your spirit. Like they're economically self-destructive. That's economically self-destructive. That's economically self-destructive. That's why we were warned about them from so why we were warned about them from so why we were warned about them from so many ancient sources. Yeah. many ancient sources. Yeah. many ancient sources. Yeah. >> And so I The next time someone tells >> And so I The next time someone tells >> And so I The next time someone tells you, this is my least favorite thing you, this is my least favorite thing you, this is my least favorite thing people say, people say, people say, some person is doing some badly behaved some person is doing some badly behaved some person is doing some badly behaved person. person. person. They say, "Well, you got to hand it to They say, "Well, you got to hand it to They say, "Well, you got to hand it to him. him. him. You know, at least it works. Look how You know, at least it works. Look how You know, at least it works. Look how rich he is." rich he is." rich he is." And I'm like, "You know what? Actually, And I'm like, "You know what? Actually, And I'm like, "You know what? Actually, no. We don't have to hand it to him. The no. We don't have to hand it to him. The no. We don't have to hand it to him. The reason it's dangerous is because it reason it's dangerous is because it reason it's dangerous is because it works. works. works. There's so many ways in our economy There's so many ways in our economy There's so many ways in our economy today you can make a lots and lots and today you can make a lots and lots and today you can make a lots and lots and lots of money without creating any value lots of money without creating any value lots of money without creating any value whatsoever.

whatsoever. whatsoever. And we don't even know how to talk about And we don't even know how to talk about And we don't even know how to talk about it. No. But it's funny, you know, how it. No. But it's funny, you know, how it. No. But it's funny, you know, how you mentioned it. I'm very fortunate to you mentioned it. I'm very fortunate to you mentioned it. I'm very fortunate to have parents that I got to watch run have parents that I got to watch run have parents that I got to watch run their own company. Dad was in uh and mom their own company. Dad was in uh and mom their own company. Dad was in uh and mom were in They ran a precision injection were in They ran a precision injection were in They ran a precision injection molding shop. So, you know, I got a Yeti molding shop. So, you know, I got a Yeti molding shop. So, you know, I got a Yeti here. Uh they would make the steel that here. Uh they would make the steel that here. Uh they would make the steel that you pour the plastic into and you get you pour the plastic into and you get you pour the plastic into and you get the lid. I know the lid. I know the lid. I know I know an unfortunate amount about I know an unfortunate amount about I know an unfortunate amount about injection molding, yeah. injection molding, yeah. injection molding, yeah. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> They they did a lot. Um >> They they did a lot. Um >> They they did a lot. Um >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> anyway, taillights, that kind of thing. >> anyway, taillights, that kind of thing. >> anyway, taillights, that kind of thing. And two things you mentioned already, And two things you mentioned already, And two things you mentioned already, you know, my dad was If I quote on a you know, my dad was If I quote on a you know, my dad was If I quote on a job, whether it's a $100,000 job or a job, whether it's a $100,000 job or a job, whether it's a $100,000 job or a million-dollar job to build a taillight million-dollar job to build a taillight million-dollar job to build a taillight for General Motors or a cup for you for General Motors or a cup for you for General Motors or a cup for you know, a hairdryer for Conair, know, a hairdryer for Conair, know, a hairdryer for Conair, I say it's going to cost $100,000. If it I say it's going to cost $100,000. If it I say it's going to cost $100,000. If it costs me more, that's on me. I quoted costs me more, that's on me. I quoted costs me more, that's on me. I quoted wrong. I'm going to deliver the mold on wrong. I'm going to deliver the mold on wrong. I'm going to deliver the mold on time and at the price that I promised. time and at the price that I promised. time and at the price that I promised. And I really try to remember that in the And I really try to remember that in the And I really try to remember that in the way I do my business and live my life. way I do my business and live my life. way I do my business and live my life. And secondly, And secondly, And secondly, my mom had this thing where she just my mom had this thing where she just my mom had this thing where she just paid her bills the moment they were paid her bills the moment they were paid her bills the moment they were received. Uh she always ran the the received. Uh she always ran the the received. Uh she always ran the the And that has been something I have lived And that has been something I have lived And that has been something I have lived by. Like if you send me I just had uh uh by. Like if you send me I just had uh uh by. Like if you send me I just had uh uh some work done on my boat.

some work done on my boat. some work done on my boat. Um and it's 10 years old now. I paid Um and it's 10 years old now. I paid Um and it's 10 years old now. I paid that like within an hour of receiving that like within an hour of receiving that like within an hour of receiving the invoice. the invoice. the invoice. And I guess some of that's self-serving And I guess some of that's self-serving And I guess some of that's self-serving because it's like, well, you know, if because it's like, well, you know, if because it's like, well, you know, if you pay they're likely to work with you you pay they're likely to work with you you pay they're likely to work with you again or or that kind of thing. But on again or or that kind of thing. But on again or or that kind of thing. But on the other hand the other hand the other hand >> such a modern way of looking at it. But >> such a modern way of looking at it. But >> such a modern way of looking at it. But it just feels good. it just feels good. it just feels good. >> to do the right thing. It's like, yeah, >> to do the right thing. It's like, yeah, >> to do the right thing. It's like, yeah, it I mean, yes, that's true. But like it I mean, yes, that's true. But like it I mean, yes, that's true. But like what's wrong with that? Like that's so what's wrong with that? Like that's so what's wrong with that? Like that's so funny but people even say sometimes when funny but people even say sometimes when funny but people even say sometimes when companies do the right thing or when companies do the right thing or when companies do the right thing or when when someone is rewarded for doing the when someone is rewarded for doing the when someone is rewarded for doing the right thing they say, well, how do you right thing they say, well, how do you right thing they say, well, how do you know he wasn't doing the right thing for know he wasn't doing the right thing for know he wasn't doing the right thing for the wrong reasons? Exactly. Right. It's the wrong reasons? Exactly. Right. It's the wrong reasons? Exactly. Right. It's like, well, we don't know. Like you like, well, we don't know. Like you like, well, we don't know. Like you can't look into somebody's heart and can't look into somebody's heart and can't look into somebody's heart and know why they did it. You can only know know why they did it. You can only know know why they did it. You can only know that they did it. Exactly. that they did it. Exactly. that they did it. Exactly. >> wrong with that. I don't want to chase >> wrong with that. I don't want to chase >> wrong with that. I don't want to chase people who owe me money either. I would people who owe me money either. I would people who owe me money either. I would rather if you owe me money, pay it when rather if you owe me money, pay it when rather if you owe me money, pay it when you get the invoice. you get the invoice. you get the invoice. >> when you think I totally agree. If we >> when you think I totally agree. If we >> when you think I totally agree. If we all do business that way, life's just all do business that way, life's just all do business that way, life's just better. We try to run our company that better. We try to run our company that better. We try to run our company that way. Yeah. way. Yeah. way. Yeah. So So this is this is really intriguing. So So this is this is really intriguing. So So this is this is really intriguing. Now, let's talk about Cadbury because Now, let's talk about Cadbury because Now, let's talk about Cadbury because there are religious roots there. And I there are religious roots there. And I there are religious roots there. And I think weren't they in the news recently think weren't they in the news recently think weren't they in the news recently because it's like there's no chocolate because it's like there's no chocolate because it's like there's no chocolate in your your egg anymore or whatever in your your egg anymore or whatever in your your egg anymore or whatever that was?

that was? that was? >> British the British press called it the >> British the British press called it the >> British the British press called it the great the great egg betrayal the great great the great egg betrayal the great great the great egg betrayal the great chocolate betrayal. I can't remember it chocolate betrayal. I can't remember it chocolate betrayal. I can't remember it was a head was a headline that was like was a head was a headline that was like was a head was a headline that was like people felt really Yeah, because Cadbury people felt really Yeah, because Cadbury people felt really Yeah, because Cadbury was taken over by by Kraft the the was taken over by by Kraft the the was taken over by by Kraft the the American company in a deal that Warren American company in a deal that Warren American company in a deal that Warren Buffett who was like one of the Kraft's Buffett who was like one of the Kraft's Buffett who was like one of the Kraft's biggest shareholders at the time called biggest shareholders at the time called biggest shareholders at the time called incredibly stupid or something like incredibly stupid or something like incredibly stupid or something like that. So it's like even if even if even that. So it's like even if even if even that. So it's like even if even if even Warren Buffett thinks it's a bad idea, Warren Buffett thinks it's a bad idea, Warren Buffett thinks it's a bad idea, maybe re-reconsider. And what's what's maybe re-reconsider. And what's what's maybe re-reconsider. And what's what's really sad about it is yeah, Cadbury was really sad about it is yeah, Cadbury was really sad about it is yeah, Cadbury was a a moral enterprise. It was a a fad in a a moral enterprise. It was a a fad in a a moral enterprise. It was a a fad in the 19th century. the 19th century. the 19th century. And I write about several of these And I write about several of these And I write about several of these examples in the book including New examples in the book including New examples in the book including New Lanark the the very famous um Lanark the the very famous um Lanark the the very famous um uh Scottish mill. That we you would uh Scottish mill. That we you would uh Scottish mill. That we you would often have somebody like take over a often have somebody like take over a often have somebody like take over a bankrupt or a or kind of small business bankrupt or a or kind of small business bankrupt or a or kind of small business and and and start running it according to moral or start running it according to moral or start running it according to moral or religious precepts. religious precepts. religious precepts. And not in the sense of like And not in the sense of like And not in the sense of like indoctrinating people into the religion, indoctrinating people into the religion, indoctrinating people into the religion, rather using a sense of what is right to rather using a sense of what is right to rather using a sense of what is right to treat people with respect. So like treat people with respect. So like treat people with respect. So like Robert Owen at New Lanark, he was ahead Robert Owen at New Lanark, he was ahead Robert Owen at New Lanark, he was ahead of his time. Like they had he had of his time. Like they had he had of his time. Like they had he had housing for everybody, free education, housing for everybody, free education, housing for everybody, free education, no child labor was allowed. He had a no child labor was allowed. He had a no child labor was allowed. He had a pension scheme so people could be taken pension scheme so people could be taken pension scheme so people could be taken care of in their retirement. It was just care of in their retirement. It was just care of in their retirement. It was just he he sorry, he would criticize his he he sorry, he would criticize his he he sorry, he would criticize his fellow industrialists and say, "You're fellow industrialists and say, "You're fellow industrialists and say, "You're willing to put so much money into the willing to put so much money into the willing to put so much money into the machinery of your factory, machinery of your factory, machinery of your factory, but you're not but you you're but you're not but you you're but you're not but you you're bothered if you have to put money into bothered if you have to put money into bothered if you have to put money into your vital machines, the living your vital machines, the living your vital machines, the living machines, the human beings that embody machines, the human beings that embody machines, the human beings that embody the factory, but they're much more the factory, but they're much more the factory, but they're much more marvelously constructed marvelously constructed marvelously constructed than any machine. So invest in them, than any machine. So invest in them, than any machine. So invest in them, they'll give you the return on they'll give you the return on they'll give you the return on investment." Anyway, he investment." Anyway, he investment." Anyway, he he had the same it's funny like

he had the same it's funny like he had the same it's funny like Cadbury and and New Lanark had the same Cadbury and and New Lanark had the same Cadbury and and New Lanark had the same fate like almost 200 years apart. Mhm. fate like almost 200 years apart. Mhm. fate like almost 200 years apart. Mhm. Every time this idea is rediscovered in Every time this idea is rediscovered in Every time this idea is rediscovered in business, which happens every business, which happens every business, which happens every generation, someone realizes, "Oh, an generation, someone realizes, "Oh, an generation, someone realizes, "Oh, an enlightened way of doing capitalism is enlightened way of doing capitalism is enlightened way of doing capitalism is more profitable." more profitable." more profitable." And they always think that because And they always think that because And they always think that because capitalism is about rewarding value capitalism is about rewarding value capitalism is about rewarding value creation and competition, this idea will creation and competition, this idea will creation and competition, this idea will spread. They'll be rewarded and then spread. They'll be rewarded and then spread. They'll be rewarded and then investors come in and crush investors come in and crush investors come in and crush and destroy and return the thing to like and destroy and return the thing to like and destroy and return the thing to like let New Lanark they it took three let New Lanark they it took three let New Lanark they it took three different syndicates of investors tried different syndicates of investors tried different syndicates of investors tried to throw Robert Owen out of New Lanark. to throw Robert Owen out of New Lanark. to throw Robert Owen out of New Lanark. And Kraft Kraft wanted to buy Cadbury. And Kraft Kraft wanted to buy Cadbury. And Kraft Kraft wanted to buy Cadbury. Um and they in order to do it they had Um and they in order to do it they had Um and they in order to do it they had to make all kinds of promises cuz the to make all kinds of promises cuz the to make all kinds of promises cuz the British, you know, the British had very British, you know, the British had very British, you know, the British had very strong feelings about Cadbury. It It had strong feelings about Cadbury. It It had strong feelings about Cadbury. It It had the the the moral enterprise had endured the the the moral enterprise had endured the the the moral enterprise had endured all these years, more than 100 years. all these years, more than 100 years. all these years, more than 100 years. >> like high living wages for employees. >> like high living wages for employees. >> like high living wages for employees. And um And um And um >> um >> um >> um and and and >> ethical conditions. In the old days it >> ethical conditions. In the old days it >> ethical conditions. In the old days it was providing a lot lot a lot of things was providing a lot lot a lot of things was providing a lot lot a lot of things that were no longer needed because of that were no longer needed because of that were no longer needed because of the um welfare state. But like before the um welfare state. But like before the um welfare state. But like before that before the advent of the modern that before the advent of the modern that before the advent of the modern welfare state, it would include house welfare state, it would include house welfare state, it would include house like company housing for employees like company housing for employees like company housing for employees people would live in.

people would live in. people would live in. >> like It's a Wonderful Life housing, >> like It's a Wonderful Life housing, >> like It's a Wonderful Life housing, right? Not not like that kind of slum right? Not not like that kind of slum right? Not not like that kind of slum housing, but housing, but housing, but >> No no Like like it was it was actually >> No no Like like it was it was actually >> No no Like like it was it was actually nice and and and so like so many all nice and and and so like so many all nice and and and so like so many all these little details about it. But yeah, these little details about it. But yeah, these little details about it. But yeah, the same basic principle of like that we the same basic principle of like that we the same basic principle of like that we talked about with Sol Price. talked about with Sol Price. talked about with Sol Price. Customers first, employees second, Customers first, employees second, Customers first, employees second, shareholders last. Not because shareholders last. Not because shareholders last. Not because shareholders aren't important, but shareholders aren't important, but shareholders aren't important, but because the value comes as the exhaust because the value comes as the exhaust because the value comes as the exhaust the effect of being kind to people. So, the effect of being kind to people. So, the effect of being kind to people. So, one of my favorite details is one of my favorite details is one of my favorite details is for I think 160 continuous years in a for I think 160 continuous years in a for I think 160 continuous years in a row, Cadbury was awarded with called the row, Cadbury was awarded with called the row, Cadbury was awarded with called the Royal Warrant in the UK, which is like Royal Warrant in the UK, which is like Royal Warrant in the UK, which is like permission to serve the British monarchy permission to serve the British monarchy permission to serve the British monarchy their products. their products. their products. It's like the ultimate distinction of It's like the ultimate distinction of It's like the ultimate distinction of quality. Only the highest quality quality. Only the highest quality quality. Only the highest quality products can get the Royal Warrant. products can get the Royal Warrant. products can get the Royal Warrant. >> into Buckingham Palace and >> into Buckingham Palace and >> into Buckingham Palace and >> means it means your product can be >> means it means your product can be >> means it means your product can be served to to the Queen herself, you served to to the Queen herself, you served to to the Queen herself, you know, like that's that's their supplier know, like that's that's their supplier know, like that's that's their supplier standards. And Kraft takes over Cadbury standards. And Kraft takes over Cadbury standards. And Kraft takes over Cadbury and loses it within 2 years. and loses it within 2 years. and loses it within 2 years. Just absolutely like they lay all kinds Just absolutely like they lay all kinds Just absolutely like they lay all kinds of people off that they promised they of people off that they promised they of people off that they promised they wouldn't lay off and they start to wouldn't lay off and they start to wouldn't lay off and they start to degrade the quality of the product. The degrade the quality of the product. The degrade the quality of the product. The shrinkflation, they're taking the the shrinkflation, they're taking the the shrinkflation, they're taking the the amount of cocoa out. And Kraft this amount of cocoa out. And Kraft this amount of cocoa out. And Kraft this whole time this is happening, Kraft is whole time this is happening, Kraft is whole time this is happening, Kraft is bragging about how many hundreds of bragging about how many hundreds of bragging about how many hundreds of millions of dollars they're saving millions of dollars they're saving millions of dollars they're saving by reducing the inefficiency of Cadbury.

by reducing the inefficiency of Cadbury. by reducing the inefficiency of Cadbury. So, seeing that So, seeing that So, seeing that >> AI right now with a lot of companies >> AI right now with a lot of companies >> AI right now with a lot of companies bragging about how much bragging about how much bragging about how much >> Bragging just so excited to liquidate >> Bragging just so excited to liquidate >> Bragging just so excited to liquidate people. people. people. It's a fetish. And what's happening, I It's a fetish. And what's happening, I It's a fetish. And what's happening, I call it in the book financial gravity. call it in the book financial gravity. call it in the book financial gravity. People are trapped in this system that People are trapped in this system that People are trapped in this system that rewards them for this sociopathic rewards them for this sociopathic rewards them for this sociopathic behavior. Right, cuz your shares go up. behavior. Right, cuz your shares go up. behavior. Right, cuz your shares go up. Because your shares go up, your career Because your shares go up, your career Because your shares go up, your career is building the company. You can't help is building the company. You can't help is building the company. You can't help it, but it, but it, but it this system is not a law of nature. it this system is not a law of nature. it this system is not a law of nature. Mhm. It is a a human construct and it Mhm. It is a a human construct and it Mhm. It is a a human construct and it can be changed. So, a big part of the can be changed. So, a big part of the can be changed. So, a big part of the book is for people to understand these book is for people to understand these book is for people to understand these forces, to stop being naive about it. forces, to stop being naive about it. forces, to stop being naive about it. Let's get more comfortable using Let's get more comfortable using Let's get more comfortable using old-fashioned language to talk about it. old-fashioned language to talk about it. old-fashioned language to talk about it. I mean, I called the book Incorruptible I mean, I called the book Incorruptible I mean, I called the book Incorruptible because these behaviors are corrupt because these behaviors are corrupt because these behaviors are corrupt behaviors. Our grandparents would not behaviors. Our grandparents would not behaviors. Our grandparents would not have had a hard time using the word have had a hard time using the word have had a hard time using the word corruption corruption corruption to describe this. We We are to describe this. We We are to describe this. We We are uncomfortable with it because we've kind uncomfortable with it because we've kind uncomfortable with it because we've kind of forgotten the lesson that we need to of forgotten the lesson that we need to of forgotten the lesson that we need to relearn. relearn. relearn. You're You're right. It's a It's a moral You're You're right. It's a It's a moral You're You're right. It's a It's a moral creep that has happened from generation.

creep that has happened from generation. creep that has happened from generation. The fun thing about being my age and The fun thing about being my age and The fun thing about being my age and stage, you know, 61 stage, you know, 61 stage, you know, 61 is I have a memory that goes back a lot is I have a memory that goes back a lot is I have a memory that goes back a lot further than most of this audience. And further than most of this audience. And further than most of this audience. And um you know, in the early days, now we um you know, in the early days, now we um you know, in the early days, now we have to be compliant in everything. We have to be compliant in everything. We have to be compliant in everything. We have contracts with everything. But if have contracts with everything. But if have contracts with everything. But if you and I just agreed on something, we you and I just agreed on something, we you and I just agreed on something, we shook hands, it was good. shook hands, it was good. shook hands, it was good. You know, yeah, of course I'm going to You know, yeah, of course I'm going to You know, yeah, of course I'm going to do it and I'll abide by the terms. And do it and I'll abide by the terms. And do it and I'll abide by the terms. And my grandparents, my parents my grandparents, my parents my grandparents, my parents taught me that. But that's like skipped taught me that. But that's like skipped taught me that. But that's like skipped a generation. It's It's been been lost a generation. It's It's been been lost a generation. It's It's been been lost somehow. So, I love that you bring somehow. So, I love that you bring somehow. So, I love that you bring >> It's It's funny to me. I I was a >> It's It's funny to me. I I was a >> It's It's funny to me. I I was a paragraph in the introduction of the paragraph in the introduction of the paragraph in the introduction of the book where I said, "Look, this may seem book where I said, "Look, this may seem book where I said, "Look, this may seem like an arcane topic that affects mostly like an arcane topic that affects mostly like an arcane topic that affects mostly finance professionals and corporate finance professionals and corporate finance professionals and corporate boards and stuff like that." But no, boards and stuff like that." But no, boards and stuff like that." But no, this issue has metastasized all through this issue has metastasized all through this issue has metastasized all through our economy. And I gave a list. It was our economy. And I gave a list. It was our economy. And I gave a list. It was like, "Look, it's the same force behind like, "Look, it's the same force behind like, "Look, it's the same force behind the reason why we have a We can't build the reason why we have a We can't build the reason why we have a We can't build We have Road construction is 10 times We have Road construction is 10 times We have Road construction is 10 times more expensive in the US than in other more expensive in the US than in other more expensive in the US than in other countries. It's why It's the same force countries. It's why It's the same force countries. It's why It's the same force behind the decline of unions and behind the decline of unions and behind the decline of unions and journalism and political parties. I journalism and political parties. I journalism and political parties. I didn't mention churches, but I easily didn't mention churches, but I easily didn't mention churches, but I easily could have.

could have. could have. >> You could have. >> You could have. >> You could have. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Um It's the reason behind why your >> Um It's the reason behind why your >> Um It's the reason behind why your favorite sports team has ownership that favorite sports team has ownership that favorite sports team has ownership that drives you crazy. It's the same reason drives you crazy. It's the same reason drives you crazy. It's the same reason why medical errors in hospitals are out why medical errors in hospitals are out why medical errors in hospitals are out of control. It's the same reason of control. It's the same reason of control. It's the same reason why your customer service rep, when you why your customer service rep, when you why your customer service rep, when you call in, would rather put you on hold call in, would rather put you on hold call in, would rather put you on hold than solve your problem. It is one than solve your problem. It is one than solve your problem. It is one all-encompassing force that is slowly all-encompassing force that is slowly all-encompassing force that is slowly and unconsciously driving us in this and unconsciously driving us in this and unconsciously driving us in this immoral direction. And so, I think we immoral direction. And so, I think we immoral direction. And so, I think we got to We got to get comfortable calling got to We got to get comfortable calling got to We got to get comfortable calling it what it is and then just saying, it what it is and then just saying, it what it is and then just saying, "Look, I want to build organizations "Look, I want to build organizations "Look, I want to build organizations that can resist this corruption." that can resist this corruption." that can resist this corruption." So, I want to give you a very I mean So, I want to give you a very I mean So, I want to give you a very I mean there's so much we're not going to get there's so much we're not going to get there's so much we're not going to get to today with the time that we've got, to today with the time that we've got, to today with the time that we've got, but I want to give you a very practical but I want to give you a very practical but I want to give you a very practical problem. I'm actually working on it for problem. I'm actually working on it for problem. I'm actually working on it for my newsletter my newsletter my newsletter uh right now and you know, I I love Seth uh right now and you know, I I love Seth uh right now and you know, I I love Seth Godin. I'm sure you love Seth Godin as Godin. I'm sure you love Seth Godin as Godin. I'm sure you love Seth Godin as well. He's a really fascinating voice well. He's a really fascinating voice well. He's a really fascinating voice and a good friend of this podcast, but and a good friend of this podcast, but and a good friend of this podcast, but you know, he talks about the race to the you know, he talks about the race to the you know, he talks about the race to the bottom and a lot of churches have a bottom and a lot of churches have a bottom and a lot of churches have a reputation somewhat deserved for being reputation somewhat deserved for being reputation somewhat deserved for being cheap. Yeah. And bottom line, you know, cheap. Yeah. And bottom line, you know, cheap. Yeah. And bottom line, you know, we don't have a big budget, can't pay we don't have a big budget, can't pay we don't have a big budget, can't pay you a living wage. You're going to have you a living wage. You're going to have you a living wage. You're going to have to figure this out, etc. etc. And it was to figure this out, etc. etc. And it was to figure this out, etc. etc. And it was early in my leadership that I kind of early in my leadership that I kind of early in my leadership that I kind of realized, oh, if you pay peanuts, you realized, oh, if you pay peanuts, you realized, oh, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Like this is this is bad.

get monkeys. Like this is this is bad. get monkeys. Like this is this is bad. Like you're you're you're going to have Like you're you're you're going to have Like you're you're you're going to have to create a living wage here. What does to create a living wage here. What does to create a living wage here. What does that look like? And I've tried for the that look like? And I've tried for the that look like? And I've tried for the last 20 years or so to pay I can work last 20 years or so to pay I can work last 20 years or so to pay I can work with a smaller team, with a smaller team, with a smaller team, pay them adequately, hopefully at times pay them adequately, hopefully at times pay them adequately, hopefully at times even generously to the point where even generously to the point where even generously to the point where they're not thinking about jumping to they're not thinking about jumping to they're not thinking about jumping to another job for another $5,000 a year or another job for another $5,000 a year or another job for another $5,000 a year or um having to say, you know what, honey, um having to say, you know what, honey, um having to say, you know what, honey, you got to go out to work cuz we don't you got to go out to work cuz we don't you got to go out to work cuz we don't have it. If their spouse wants to work, have it. If their spouse wants to work, have it. If their spouse wants to work, awesome. But I don't want to force them awesome. But I don't want to force them awesome. But I don't want to force them to choose between rent and groceries or to choose between rent and groceries or to choose between rent and groceries or mortgage payment and groceries mortgage payment and groceries mortgage payment and groceries and and that kind of thing. and and that kind of thing. and and that kind of thing. But that is foreign thinking in a lot of But that is foreign thinking in a lot of But that is foreign thinking in a lot of churches. It's just cheap cheap cheap churches. It's just cheap cheap cheap churches. It's just cheap cheap cheap cheap. What's you know, how much can we cheap. What's you know, how much can we cheap. What's you know, how much can we get away with? That kind of thing. What get away with? That kind of thing. What get away with? That kind of thing. What would you say to that broke mindset? And would you say to that broke mindset? And would you say to that broke mindset? And what is eating away at the fabric of what is eating away at the fabric of what is eating away at the fabric of your mission if that is your mindset? Or your mission if that is your mindset? Or your mission if that is your mindset? Or maybe you disagree. I mean, take it maybe you disagree. I mean, take it maybe you disagree. I mean, take it away. away. away. >> no. I I couldn't agree with that more >> no. I I couldn't agree with that more >> no. I I couldn't agree with that more and we And by the way, there is so much and we And by the way, there is so much and we And by the way, there is so much evidence in support of this. So, Okay. evidence in support of this. So, Okay. evidence in support of this. So, Okay. Well, let's go there then. Well, let's go there then. Well, let's go there then. >> Yeah, let's let's talk about it. First >> Yeah, let's let's talk about it. First >> Yeah, let's let's talk about it. First of all, it's it's funny to me to imagine of all, it's it's funny to me to imagine of all, it's it's funny to me to imagine churches of all places churches of all places churches of all places joining in with these super exploitative joining in with these super exploitative joining in with these super exploitative businesses to say, what can we get away businesses to say, what can we get away businesses to say, what can we get away with?

with? with? Like I gosh, really? Oh, man, that hurts Like I gosh, really? Oh, man, that hurts Like I gosh, really? Oh, man, that hurts so bad. so bad. so bad. >> there's some really good people, but you >> there's some really good people, but you >> there's some really good people, but you get the get the get the counter on the board, right? That is not counter on the board, right? That is not counter on the board, right? That is not uncommon. I have encountered it too in uncommon. I have encountered it too in uncommon. I have encountered it too in for-profit and non-profit alike. And the for-profit and non-profit alike. And the for-profit and non-profit alike. And the issue is we are the problem is how we issue is we are the problem is how we issue is we are the problem is how we teach economics actually. Even if you've teach economics actually. Even if you've teach economics actually. Even if you've never taken an economics class, you've never taken an economics class, you've never taken an economics class, you've probably inherited this idea. And and I probably inherited this idea. And and I probably inherited this idea. And and I call it the parable of the plantation. call it the parable of the plantation. call it the parable of the plantation. Which I don't know why economics Which I don't know why economics Which I don't know why economics textbooks love to use plantations as the textbooks love to use plantations as the textbooks love to use plantations as the example. I think it's a a little bit of example. I think it's a a little bit of example. I think it's a a little bit of a remnant of our colonial past. I'm a remnant of our colonial past. I'm a remnant of our colonial past. I'm always like, please stop using always like, please stop using always like, please stop using plantation. But you'll often plantation. But you'll often plantation. But you'll often >> do better. You'll often hear it told >> do better. You'll often hear it told >> do better. You'll often hear it told this way. Let's say you're a very this way. Let's say you're a very this way. Let's say you're a very enlightened plantation owner and you enlightened plantation owner and you enlightened plantation owner and you treat your workers well and you pay treat your workers well and you pay treat your workers well and you pay above market wages and you have high above market wages and you have high above market wages and you have high quality and you have good environmental quality and you have good environmental quality and you have good environmental standards and yada yada yada yada. standards and yada yada yada yada. standards and yada yada yada yada. uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh, the plantation down the street, they the plantation down the street, they the plantation down the street, they don't pay their workers well, they don't don't pay their workers well, they don't don't pay their workers well, they don't care about quality, they don't this, care about quality, they don't this, care about quality, they don't this, they don't that. So therefore, their they don't that. So therefore, their they don't that. So therefore, their cost basis is lower, therefore they cost basis is lower, therefore they cost basis is lower, therefore they undercut you on price, and oh, all your undercut you on price, and oh, all your undercut you on price, and oh, all your good intentions go away because you get good intentions go away because you get good intentions go away because you get driven out of business.

driven out of business. driven out of business. It's the idea of as Seth Godin says, the It's the idea of as Seth Godin says, the It's the idea of as Seth Godin says, the race to the bottom. We have inherited race to the bottom. We have inherited race to the bottom. We have inherited this as a like orthodoxy that many of us this as a like orthodoxy that many of us this as a like orthodoxy that many of us do we don't even consciously aware we do we don't even consciously aware we do we don't even consciously aware we think that like our organization is think that like our organization is think that like our organization is constantly under threat if we're not constantly under threat if we're not constantly under threat if we're not completely ruthless about cost, completely ruthless about cost, completely ruthless about cost, then we can't we'll some we'll be then we can't we'll some we'll be then we can't we'll some we'll be replaced fundamentally by someone who replaced fundamentally by someone who replaced fundamentally by someone who is. Now, what's so interesting to me is. Now, what's so interesting to me is. Now, what's so interesting to me about this example is it is smuggling about this example is it is smuggling about this example is it is smuggling into the parable into the parable into the parable truth about the universe that are truth about the universe that are truth about the universe that are actually contestable. actually contestable. actually contestable. So for example, notice how it assumes So for example, notice how it assumes So for example, notice how it assumes that customers will choose based on low that customers will choose based on low that customers will choose based on low cost, not on quality. Mhm. Well, why cost, not on quality. Mhm. Well, why cost, not on quality. Mhm. Well, why should that be? Is that always true? should that be? Is that always true? should that be? Is that always true? Oh, sometimes it's true, sometimes it's Oh, sometimes it's true, sometimes it's Oh, sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not. Well, then I under what not. Well, then I under what not. Well, then I under what circumstances? More More importantly, it circumstances? More More importantly, it circumstances? More More importantly, it assumes that the overall cost structure assumes that the overall cost structure assumes that the overall cost structure will be better if employees are will be better if employees are will be better if employees are squeezed. squeezed. squeezed. But that is not often not the case. In But that is not often not the case. In But that is not often not the case. In fact, a a of times we are penny wise, fact, a a of times we are penny wise, fact, a a of times we are penny wise, pound foolish when we do that because as pound foolish when we do that because as pound foolish when we do that because as you say if people are stressed, if you say if people are stressed, if you say if people are stressed, if they're not able to make ends meet, if they're not able to make ends meet, if they're not able to make ends meet, if they're not loyal, we have to pay the they're not loyal, we have to pay the they're not loyal, we have to pay the transition cost of constant churn and transition cost of constant churn and transition cost of constant churn and turnover, turnover, turnover, like the product quality suffers, but like the product quality suffers, but like the product quality suffers, but also often our own economics suffer. So, also often our own economics suffer. So, also often our own economics suffer. So, it's often self-destructive it's often self-destructive it's often self-destructive to do this. So, the and you can prove to to do this. So, the and you can prove to to do this. So, the and you can prove to people who give this parable that they people who give this parable that they people who give this parable that they don't really believe it by using this don't really believe it by using this don't really believe it by using this thought exercise. You go back to one of thought exercise. You go back to one of thought exercise. You go back to one of those people who and next time someone those people who and next time someone those people who and next time someone tries this with you in the private tries this with you in the private tries this with you in the private sector, you just say, "Oh, I see. I sector, you just say, "Oh, I see. I sector, you just say, "Oh, I see. I understand. But, here's what I'm worried understand. But, here's what I'm worried understand. But, here's what I'm worried about. At our company, we pay our CEO about. At our company, we pay our CEO about. At our company, we pay our CEO $100 million. I mean, we really have a $100 million. I mean, we really have a $100 million. I mean, we really have a well-compensated CEO. But, uh-oh, the well-compensated CEO. But, uh-oh, the well-compensated CEO. But, uh-oh, the company down the street, they might pay

company down the street, they might pay company down the street, they might pay their CEO only $50 million their CEO only $50 million their CEO only $50 million and use the cost savings to lower prices and use the cost savings to lower prices and use the cost savings to lower prices and then they would drive us out of and then they would drive us out of and then they would drive us out of business." business." business." If you try that argument on someone, If you try that argument on someone, If you try that argument on someone, they'll be like, "That's absurd. You got they'll be like, "That's absurd. You got they'll be like, "That's absurd. You got to pay for a high-quality CEO. The to pay for a high-quality CEO. The to pay for a high-quality CEO. The quality of his decision-making is the quality of his decision-making is the quality of his decision-making is the most important thing." You're like, "Oh, most important thing." You're like, "Oh, most important thing." You're like, "Oh, I see. So, sometimes it can be worth it I see. So, sometimes it can be worth it I see. So, sometimes it can be worth it to pay a premium to labor for quality?" to pay a premium to labor for quality?" to pay a premium to labor for quality?" It might have a business impact? Oh, you It might have a business impact? Oh, you It might have a business impact? Oh, you don't say. don't say. don't say. So, this is an experiment very much So, this is an experiment very much So, this is an experiment very much worth running. I can give you lots of worth running. I can give you lots of worth running. I can give you lots of examples. There's tons of this in the examples. There's tons of this in the examples. There's tons of this in the book that people who are paid better, book that people who are paid better, book that people who are paid better, the company benefits. The organization the company benefits. The organization the company benefits. The organization benefits from not just improved morale benefits from not just improved morale benefits from not just improved morale cuz people are paid better. And now, cuz people are paid better. And now, cuz people are paid better. And now, here's the dark side of it though. here's the dark side of it though. here's the dark side of it though. The other thing that is in the research The other thing that is in the research The other thing that is in the research is people really really want to work in is people really really want to work in is people really really want to work in a mission-driven organization. a mission-driven organization. a mission-driven organization. Purpose-driven work, especially Gen Z. Purpose-driven work, especially Gen Z. Purpose-driven work, especially Gen Z. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's it's it's incredible how much it's it's it's incredible how much it's it's it's incredible how much stronger it is. So, purpose-driven stronger it is. So, purpose-driven stronger it is. So, purpose-driven companies actually can get away with companies actually can get away with companies actually can get away with paying a lot less for the same talent paying a lot less for the same talent paying a lot less for the same talent cuz people will give up a lot of salary cuz people will give up a lot of salary cuz people will give up a lot of salary to work in a mission-driven place. Sure.

to work in a mission-driven place. Sure. to work in a mission-driven place. Sure. Sure. So, the positive side of that is Sure. So, the positive side of that is Sure. So, the positive side of that is mission-driven companies have an mission-driven companies have an mission-driven companies have an economic advantage that's built in. The economic advantage that's built in. The economic advantage that's built in. The dark side of it is if you want if you dark side of it is if you want if you dark side of it is if you want if you take that exploitative mindset into it, take that exploitative mindset into it, take that exploitative mindset into it, you can be like, "Ooh, I can get away you can be like, "Ooh, I can get away you can be like, "Ooh, I can get away with char- with like really treating my with char- with like really treating my with char- with like really treating my employees badly and they'll put up with employees badly and they'll put up with employees badly and they'll put up with it. We see this in all kinds of places it. We see this in all kinds of places it. We see this in all kinds of places like think about political campaigns. like think about political campaigns. like think about political campaigns. How many scandals of abuse have come out How many scandals of abuse have come out How many scandals of abuse have come out of political campaigns cuz you have true of political campaigns cuz you have true of political campaigns cuz you have true believer young people, you know, signing believer young people, you know, signing believer young people, you know, signing up for something and up for something and up for something and yeah and they get they get abused. So I yeah and they get they get abused. So I yeah and they get they get abused. So I I think if people have never experienced I think if people have never experienced I think if people have never experienced this, I think this is partly the trauma this, I think this is partly the trauma this, I think this is partly the trauma people have been hazed effectively in people have been hazed effectively in people have been hazed effectively in their careers. Like if you've never their careers. Like if you've never their careers. Like if you've never experienced it, like you might want to experienced it, like you might want to experienced it, like you might want to experiment a little bit and see if you experiment a little bit and see if you experiment a little bit and see if you give people you pay a living wage, you give people you pay a living wage, you give people you pay a living wage, you pay more than you have to. Not I think pay more than you have to. Not I think pay more than you have to. Not I think be profligate but just make sure your be profligate but just make sure your be profligate but just make sure your people are taken care of. You may be people are taken care of. You may be people are taken care of. You may be surprised how much that drives surprised how much that drives surprised how much that drives organization. Yeah, this isn't crazy organization. Yeah, this isn't crazy organization. Yeah, this isn't crazy headline money. This is just decent headline money. This is just decent headline money. This is just decent money and it creates a security for money and it creates a security for money and it creates a security for them. them. them. It means they don't have to worry and It means they don't have to worry and It means they don't have to worry and you know, to your point earlier, you're you know, to your point earlier, you're you know, to your point earlier, you're surprised this isn't churches. I think surprised this isn't churches. I think surprised this isn't churches. I think it happens a couple of ways cuz I work it happens a couple of ways cuz I work it happens a couple of ways cuz I work with church leaders every day. Number with church leaders every day. Number with church leaders every day. Number one, a lot of us graduated from seminary one, a lot of us graduated from seminary one, a lot of us graduated from seminary and really are not properly educated on and really are not properly educated on and really are not properly educated on congregational finance, economics. Then congregational finance, economics. Then congregational finance, economics. Then you get a board, your elder board or you get a board, your elder board or you get a board, your elder board or governing board and you get the bean governing board and you get the bean governing board and you get the bean counter on or the person who really counter on or the person who really counter on or the person who really believes what you're writing about that believes what you're writing about that believes what you're writing about that it's just shareholder value etc. etc.

it's just shareholder value etc. etc. it's just shareholder value etc. etc. And they import that mindset to the And they import that mindset to the And they import that mindset to the church. And on the other hand, I see church. And on the other hand, I see church. And on the other hand, I see some really great board members who are some really great board members who are some really great board members who are like, no, we got to pay a generous wage. like, no, we got to pay a generous wage. like, no, we got to pay a generous wage. We have to be fair to our employees. But We have to be fair to our employees. But We have to be fair to our employees. But I think it's I would love to see one of I think it's I would love to see one of I think it's I would love to see one of my missions is to get rid of this broke my missions is to get rid of this broke my missions is to get rid of this broke thinking in the church which would be thinking in the church which would be thinking in the church which would be great. Hey, we're coming up on time so I great. Hey, we're coming up on time so I great. Hey, we're coming up on time so I really want to be respectful of that and really want to be respectful of that and really want to be respectful of that and what have I what have we not touched on what have I what have we not touched on what have I what have we not touched on in this short and I hope first in this short and I hope first in this short and I hope first conversation we're having that you think conversation we're having that you think conversation we're having that you think oh, I got to say this before we before I oh, I got to say this before we before I oh, I got to say this before we before I shut the shut the shut the >> that I would love to just briefly >> that I would love to just briefly >> that I would love to just briefly mention. The first cuz you were talking mention. The first cuz you were talking mention. The first cuz you were talking before about before about before about um um um like ways in which if you pay the like ways in which if you pay the like ways in which if you pay the upfront cost, you reap the downstream upfront cost, you reap the downstream upfront cost, you reap the downstream benefit. There's a principle in the book benefit. There's a principle in the book benefit. There's a principle in the book I call harder is easier. Oh, I love that I call harder is easier. Oh, I love that I call harder is easier. Oh, I love that one. Yeah. one. Yeah. one. Yeah. >> extremely important, especially I was >> extremely important, especially I was >> extremely important, especially I was just when you were picturing telling me just when you were picturing telling me just when you were picturing telling me about I know so many leaders who are in about I know so many leaders who are in about I know so many leaders who are in declining industries. declining industries. declining industries. Um both in the for-profit and in the Um both in the for-profit and in the Um both in the for-profit and in the nonprofit and even of course in the nonprofit and even of course in the nonprofit and even of course in the religious sectors. Um when you're under religious sectors. Um when you're under religious sectors. Um when you're under stress and pressure, it can just feel stress and pressure, it can just feel stress and pressure, it can just feel like you have to cut every corner.

like you have to cut every corner. like you have to cut every corner. Because everything's so hard. And in Because everything's so hard. And in Because everything's so hard. And in fact, when I meet with leaders and try fact, when I meet with leaders and try fact, when I meet with leaders and try to give them advice about how to build to give them advice about how to build to give them advice about how to build their company in an incorruptible way, their company in an incorruptible way, their company in an incorruptible way, they often say to me, "Eric, look, they often say to me, "Eric, look, they often say to me, "Eric, look, business is already so hard. business is already so hard. business is already so hard. Now you want me to pay extra? Now you want me to pay extra? Now you want me to pay extra? I got to do extra now? I got to pay more I got to do extra now? I got to pay more I got to do extra now? I got to pay more to my employees? I got to do this extra to my employees? I got to do this extra to my employees? I got to do this extra thing? And I got to do that extra thing? thing? And I got to do that extra thing? thing? And I got to do that extra thing? And I got to have a mission?" And I'm And I got to have a mission?" And I'm And I got to have a mission?" And I'm just like, "I'm already so exhausted." just like, "I'm already so exhausted." just like, "I'm already so exhausted." And I've I'm sympathetic. I have a lot And I've I'm sympathetic. I have a lot And I've I'm sympathetic. I have a lot of compassion for people who are in that of compassion for people who are in that of compassion for people who are in that situation, but I always answer the same situation, but I always answer the same situation, but I always answer the same way. I said, "Look, way. I said, "Look, way. I said, "Look, are you willing to consider the are you willing to consider the are you willing to consider the possibility possibility possibility that part of the reason that you're that part of the reason that you're that part of the reason that you're finding it so hard to operate your finding it so hard to operate your finding it so hard to operate your organization is because nobody trusts organization is because nobody trusts organization is because nobody trusts you? you? you? Maybe these choices have downstream Maybe these choices have downstream Maybe these choices have downstream consequences. So when you're talking consequences. So when you're talking consequences. So when you're talking especially about the money thing, it's especially about the money thing, it's especially about the money thing, it's like, "We can't afford like, "We can't afford like, "We can't afford to pay a living wage." But maybe part of to pay a living wage." But maybe part of to pay a living wage." But maybe part of the reason we can't afford it is because the reason we can't afford it is because the reason we can't afford it is because our performance is being degraded by the our performance is being degraded by the our performance is being degraded by the stress that our employees are stress that our employees are stress that our employees are experiencing. experiencing. experiencing. So in the book I give a bunch of So in the book I give a bunch of So in the book I give a bunch of examples and a lot of evidence that examples and a lot of evidence that examples and a lot of evidence that principle decision making, having an principle decision making, having an principle decision making, having an ethos that puts people first, you know, ethos that puts people first, you know, ethos that puts people first, you know, just like has respect for human dignity just like has respect for human dignity just like has respect for human dignity and human flourishing as it at its core, and human flourishing as it at its core, and human flourishing as it at its core, has these almost miraculous powers that has these almost miraculous powers that has these almost miraculous powers that people who've never witnessed sometimes people who've never witnessed sometimes people who've never witnessed sometimes can't believe. But if you've worked can't believe. But if you've worked can't believe. But if you've worked around mission-driven companies, you'll around mission-driven companies, you'll around mission-driven companies, you'll start to see, "Oh, this is a real thing.

start to see, "Oh, this is a real thing. start to see, "Oh, this is a real thing. There's something really And to me, it's There's something really And to me, it's There's something really And to me, it's very natural." Like again, to see it in very natural." Like again, to see it in very natural." Like again, to see it in moral terms, this is very natural. When moral terms, this is very natural. When moral terms, this is very natural. When the mission of the organization aligns the mission of the organization aligns the mission of the organization aligns with what's in people's hearts, with what's in people's hearts, with what's in people's hearts, they find it easier to understand what they find it easier to understand what they find it easier to understand what the organization requires of them. So a the organization requires of them. So a the organization requires of them. So a lot of the internal friction and turmoil lot of the internal friction and turmoil lot of the internal friction and turmoil that that keep organizations back is that that keep organizations back is that that keep organizations back is naturally alleviated by having this um naturally alleviated by having this um naturally alleviated by having this um this precious alignment. And one more this precious alignment. And one more this precious alignment. And one more thing I want to say, this comes later thing I want to say, this comes later thing I want to say, this comes later part of the book. part of the book. part of the book. Some people will hear this and say, Some people will hear this and say, Some people will hear this and say, "Well, I'm not a leader. I'm not an "Well, I'm not a leader. I'm not an "Well, I'm not a leader. I'm not an entrepreneur." Right? As you say, "I'm entrepreneur." Right? As you say, "I'm entrepreneur." Right? As you say, "I'm not starting a new church. I I This not starting a new church. I I This not starting a new church. I I This doesn't really apply. I'm not on the doesn't really apply. I'm not on the doesn't really apply. I'm not on the board." board." board." And one of the things that I really And one of the things that I really And one of the things that I really learned doing the research for this book learned doing the research for this book learned doing the research for this book is how much power we all wield as is how much power we all wield as is how much power we all wield as individuals individuals individuals in our choices of employment, our in our choices of employment, our in our choices of employment, our choices of what to purchase, our choices choices of what to purchase, our choices choices of what to purchase, our choices of where our money is invested. And the of where our money is invested. And the of where our money is invested. And the the thing you got to understand is that the thing you got to understand is that the thing you got to understand is that we live in the era of what's called we live in the era of what's called we live in the era of what's called surveillance capitalism. surveillance capitalism. surveillance capitalism. And what surveillance capitalism means, And what surveillance capitalism means, And what surveillance capitalism means, practically speaking, is that every practically speaking, is that every practically speaking, is that every decision you make, decision you make, decision you make, there's some middle manager out there there's some middle manager out there there's some middle manager out there who that's their bonus target to get you who that's their bonus target to get you who that's their bonus target to get you to do that.

to do that. to do that. Or get you to not do that. Probably many Or get you to not do that. Probably many Or get you to not do that. Probably many people, right? Like it's their job. So, people, right? Like it's their job. So, people, right? Like it's their job. So, when you do the right thing, even if you when you do the right thing, even if you when you do the right thing, even if you don't tell anybody about it, don't tell anybody about it, don't tell anybody about it, you nonetheless send out a gravitational you nonetheless send out a gravitational you nonetheless send out a gravitational ripple out into the world. ripple out into the world. ripple out into the world. And so, I think part of where we're at And so, I think part of where we're at And so, I think part of where we're at in our in our moral imagination as an as in our in our moral imagination as an as in our in our moral imagination as an as a society is like we're to the point now a society is like we're to the point now a society is like we're to the point now where if you say you're going to do the where if you say you're going to do the where if you say you're going to do the right thing, people accuse you of virtue right thing, people accuse you of virtue right thing, people accuse you of virtue signaling. signaling. signaling. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, look, in an Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, look, in an Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, look, in an era where every we're living in this era where every we're living in this era where every we're living in this social media era, everything is social media era, everything is social media era, everything is amplified. So, everything is a signal amplified. So, everything is a signal amplified. So, everything is a signal whether you want it to be or not. So, whether you want it to be or not. So, whether you want it to be or not. So, yeah, if you do something virtuous, you yeah, if you do something virtuous, you yeah, if you do something virtuous, you will send a signal of virtue. Like, no will send a signal of virtue. Like, no will send a signal of virtue. Like, no kidding. The idea that that's a kidding. The idea that that's a kidding. The idea that that's a criticism is nuts to me. So, I feel like criticism is nuts to me. So, I feel like criticism is nuts to me. So, I feel like part of what we have to do if we want to part of what we have to do if we want to part of what we have to do if we want to see more mission-driven, more see more mission-driven, more see more mission-driven, more values-driven organizations in the world values-driven organizations in the world values-driven organizations in the world is we just have to be comfortable is we just have to be comfortable is we just have to be comfortable embracing this power and choosing where embracing this power and choosing where embracing this power and choosing where to work and what to do. Like, again, not to work and what to do. Like, again, not to work and what to do. Like, again, not to go bragging about it, but simply to to go bragging about it, but simply to to go bragging about it, but simply to break what I call the normative break what I call the normative break what I call the normative consensus of shareholder primacy. We consensus of shareholder primacy. We consensus of shareholder primacy. We live in an era era where finance is live in an era era where finance is live in an era era where finance is ascendant, extraction and exploitation ascendant, extraction and exploitation ascendant, extraction and exploitation are seen as a values to be rewarded.

are seen as a values to be rewarded. are seen as a values to be rewarded. And the people who have a different view And the people who have a different view And the people who have a different view often feel like they don't have any often feel like they don't have any often feel like they don't have any agency. They feel pushed to the side, agency. They feel pushed to the side, agency. They feel pushed to the side, you know, like it's like, oh well, I you know, like it's like, oh well, I you know, like it's like, oh well, I guess I I'm the only one who thinks this guess I I'm the only one who thinks this guess I I'm the only one who thinks this way. way. way. So, one of my homework assignments I've So, one of my homework assignments I've So, one of my homework assignments I've been giving people lately is been giving people lately is been giving people lately is you just you don't have to go write a you just you don't have to go write a you just you don't have to go write a blog post about it. You don't have to go blog post about it. You don't have to go blog post about it. You don't have to go on a podcast. You You Not everyone's on a podcast. You You Not everyone's on a podcast. You You Not everyone's courageous and not everyone's ready for courageous and not everyone's ready for courageous and not everyone's ready for that. That's okay. that. That's okay. that. That's okay. But could you tell a friend tomorrow, But could you tell a friend tomorrow, But could you tell a friend tomorrow, "Hey, just by the way, I'm not part of "Hey, just by the way, I'm not part of "Hey, just by the way, I'm not part of the normative consensus for shareholder the normative consensus for shareholder the normative consensus for shareholder primacy. primacy. primacy. Personally, I think companies should do Personally, I think companies should do Personally, I think companies should do the right thing. the right thing. the right thing. Personally, I think organizations exist Personally, I think organizations exist Personally, I think organizations exist to do more than just make money." to do more than just make money." to do more than just make money." And just say it out loud and see how it And just say it out loud and see how it And just say it out loud and see how it feels. And you might find your friend feels. And you might find your friend feels. And you might find your friend says, "Oh, I didn't know you thought says, "Oh, I didn't know you thought says, "Oh, I didn't know you thought that. I think that, too." that. I think that, too." that. I think that, too." And you never know what might happen. And you never know what might happen. And you never know what might happen. >> Something's got to change. Something's >> Something's got to change. Something's >> Something's got to change. Something's got to change, man. got to change, man. got to change, man. >> Something's got to change. It's that >> Something's got to change. It's that >> Something's got to change. It's that time. time. time. Eric, um Eric, um Eric, um thank you thanks for Lean Startup. thank you thanks for Lean Startup. thank you thanks for Lean Startup. Thank you for your latest work, Thank you for your latest work, Thank you for your latest work, Uncorruptible. Uncorruptible. Uncorruptible. Um it's a fascinating book and one with Um it's a fascinating book and one with Um it's a fascinating book and one with a lot of research into it. It's out a lot of research into it. It's out a lot of research into it. It's out everywhere. If people want to track with everywhere. If people want to track with everywhere. If people want to track with you more, where's the best follow or you more, where's the best follow or you more, where's the best follow or place to discover you?

place to discover you? place to discover you? >> Yeah, please go to uncorruptible.co. >> Yeah, please go to uncorruptible.co. >> Yeah, please go to uncorruptible.co. That's the book website. There you can That's the book website. There you can That's the book website. There you can sign up for my mailing list and we have sign up for my mailing list and we have sign up for my mailing list and we have tried to create every kind of bonus you tried to create every kind of bonus you tried to create every kind of bonus you might want to as an incentive for you to might want to as an incentive for you to might want to as an incentive for you to do so. So, there's extra bonus chapters do so. So, there's extra bonus chapters do so. So, there's extra bonus chapters and readers guides and um yeah, like and readers guides and um yeah, like and readers guides and um yeah, like this is making me think maybe we need to this is making me think maybe we need to this is making me think maybe we need to do a a readers guide for people who work do a a readers guide for people who work do a a readers guide for people who work in the church. Like that actually would in the church. Like that actually would in the church. Like that actually would be really great. Like how to be really great. Like how to be really great. Like how to >> Oh, that would be really good. Jim >> Oh, that would be really good. Jim >> Oh, that would be really good. Jim Collins did that years ago with his Collins did that years ago with his Collins did that years ago with his little little little >> We'll collaborate on something like that >> We'll collaborate on something like that >> We'll collaborate on something like that if you're interested. Yeah, we want to if you're interested. Yeah, we want to if you're interested. Yeah, we want to have have have lots of reasons why people want to be lots of reasons why people want to be lots of reasons why people want to be part of this broader movement, broader part of this broader movement, broader part of this broader movement, broader community and you can do that at community and you can do that at community and you can do that at uncorruptible.co. uncorruptible.co. uncorruptible.co. >> think you have a lot of like-minded >> think you have a lot of like-minded >> think you have a lot of like-minded leaders leaders leaders tuning in today watching. Eric, tuning in today watching. Eric, tuning in today watching. Eric, >> Outstanding. it's been a delight. Thank >> Outstanding. it's been a delight. Thank >> Outstanding. it's been a delight. Thank you. Well, I know I wish there was more you. Well, I know I wish there was more you. Well, I know I wish there was more to that, too. We talked about maybe to that, too. We talked about maybe to that, too. We talked about maybe working together on some projects and working together on some projects and working together on some projects and having them back on the podcast. But I having them back on the podcast. But I having them back on the podcast. But I hope you enjoyed that introduction at hope you enjoyed that introduction at hope you enjoyed that introduction at least on this channel to Eric Ries. If least on this channel to Eric Ries. If least on this channel to Eric Ries. If you want more, including show notes, you you want more, including show notes, you you want more, including show notes, you can get them in my Art of Leadership can get them in my Art of Leadership can get them in my Art of Leadership Academy. You can start an account like Academy. You can start an account like Academy. You can start an account like over 21,000 leaders have done for free, over 21,000 leaders have done for free, over 21,000 leaders have done for free, and there you can access these episodes and there you can access these episodes and there you can access these episodes via video, have a really thoughtful via video, have a really thoughtful via video, have a really thoughtful conversation with other church leaders conversation with other church leaders conversation with other church leaders trying to do what you're doing. You can trying to do what you're doing. You can trying to do what you're doing. You can click the link in the description to click the link in the description to click the link in the description to this episode, or simply go to the art of this episode, or simply go to the art of this episode, or simply go to the art of leadershipacademy.com, leadershipacademy.com, leadershipacademy.com, where you can sign up and get started in where you can sign up and get started in where you can sign up and get started in about a minute or less, absolutely free.

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