The Broken System Burning Out Pastors Everywhere with Tyler Staton

There is a very toxic culture There is a very toxic culture in the North American church and maybe in the North American church and maybe in the North American church and maybe in the Western church in general in the Western church in general in the Western church in general that wants me that wants me that wants me to live my leadership life to live my leadership life to live my leadership life in a way that in a way that in a way that destroys destroys destroys me slowly over time. me slowly over time. me slowly over time. And I am surrounded by people And I am surrounded by people And I am surrounded by people that with the very best of intentions that with the very best of intentions that with the very best of intentions will celebrate me will celebrate me will celebrate me and then be deeply disappointed in me and then be deeply disappointed in me and then be deeply disappointed in me the the day that the system I'm a part the the day that the system I'm a part the the day that the system I'm a part of of of breaks my back the way it's broken the breaks my back the way it's broken the breaks my back the way it's broken the back of so many people. back of so many people. back of so many people. >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us and Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us and Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us and today I sit down with Tyler Staton. We today I sit down with Tyler Staton. We today I sit down with Tyler Staton. We have a wide-ranging fascinating have a wide-ranging fascinating have a wide-ranging fascinating conversation about finding your voice as conversation about finding your voice as conversation about finding your voice as a young preacher. He's in his 30s, he's a young preacher. He's in his 30s, he's a young preacher. He's in his 30s, he's already an incredible writer already an incredible writer already an incredible writer and he comes to it kind of in a and he comes to it kind of in a and he comes to it kind of in a surprising way a little bit later in surprising way a little bit later in surprising way a little bit later in life. He didn't grow up as a reader or a life. He didn't grow up as a reader or a life. He didn't grow up as a reader or a student of poetry and yet he's writing student of poetry and yet he's writing student of poetry and yet he's writing amazing poems. He's a [music] brilliant amazing poems. He's a [music] brilliant amazing poems. He's a [music] brilliant writer, an incredible preacher.

writer, an incredible preacher. writer, an incredible preacher. How did he get formed? And it started How did he get formed? And it started How did he get formed? And it started early in ministry. early in ministry. early in ministry. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> So we talk about that, we talk about the >> So we talk about that, we talk about the >> So we talk about that, we talk about the gift of imagination and what getting gift of imagination and what getting gift of imagination and what getting sick, we give an update on his health sick, we give an update on his health sick, we give an update on his health taught him about life, about pace, and taught him about life, about pace, and taught him about life, about pace, and about presence and a whole lot [music] about presence and a whole lot [music] about presence and a whole lot [music] more. So I think this episode's going to more. So I think this episode's going to more. So I think this episode's going to be particularly helpful. First of all, be particularly helpful. First of all, be particularly helpful. First of all, for all of us. I think we're at an for all of us. I think we're at an for all of us. I think we're at an inflection moment with artificial inflection moment with artificial inflection moment with artificial intelligence. I'm ranting about this a intelligence. I'm ranting about this a intelligence. I'm ranting about this a little bit this summer, but everything little bit this summer, but everything little bit this summer, but everything on my feed now sounds the same. Why? Cuz on my feed now sounds the same. Why? Cuz on my feed now sounds the same. Why? Cuz AI is writing it and people are not. I AI is writing it and people are not. I AI is writing it and people are not. I think there is an opportunity for those think there is an opportunity for those think there is an opportunity for those of us who are preachers, writers, of us who are preachers, writers, of us who are preachers, writers, thinkers to really stand up against that thinkers to really stand up against that thinkers to really stand up against that tide and be human in this moment. Tyler tide and be human in this moment. Tyler tide and be human in this moment. Tyler shows us exactly his process for shows us exactly his process for shows us exactly his process for becoming the writer he is today as a becoming the writer he is today as a becoming the writer he is today as a young leader in his 30s. young leader in his 30s. young leader in his 30s. So, I think you're really going to enjoy So, I think you're really going to enjoy So, I think you're really going to enjoy this. If you're a little bit older like this. If you're a little bit older like this. If you're a little bit older like me, you might want to share this with me, you might want to share this with me, you might want to share this with some members of your team. If you're some members of your team. If you're some members of your team. If you're new, hit subscribe, hit follow, and new, hit subscribe, hit follow, and new, hit subscribe, hit follow, and you'll never miss an episode. Tyler you'll never miss an episode. Tyler you'll never miss an episode. Tyler Staton is the lead pastor of Bridgetown Staton is the lead pastor of Bridgetown Staton is the lead pastor of Bridgetown Church in Portland, Oregon, and the Church in Portland, Oregon, and the Church in Portland, Oregon, and the national director of 24/7 Prayer USA.

national director of 24/7 Prayer USA. national director of 24/7 Prayer USA. He's the author of multiple books, He's the author of multiple books, He's the author of multiple books, including Praying Like Monks and his including Praying Like Monks and his including Praying Like Monks and his newest, After Amen, which I actually newest, After Amen, which I actually newest, After Amen, which I actually read a short excerpt from. Everything read a short excerpt from. Everything read a short excerpt from. Everything that we talk about is going to be in the that we talk about is going to be in the that we talk about is going to be in the show notes. You can go to show notes. You can go to show notes. You can go to careynieuwhof.com/shownotes careynieuwhof.com/shownotes careynieuwhof.com/shownotes or the art of leadershipacademy.com. or the art of leadershipacademy.com. or the art of leadershipacademy.com. Sign up for free. All the show notes are Sign up for free. All the show notes are Sign up for free. All the show notes are in there. And now, my conversation with in there. And now, my conversation with in there. And now, my conversation with Tyler Staton. Tyler, [clears throat] Tyler Staton. Tyler, [clears throat] Tyler Staton. Tyler, [clears throat] welcome back. We were doing a quick welcome back. We were doing a quick welcome back. We were doing a quick health update before we pressed record, health update before we pressed record, health update before we pressed record, and uh I would love for you to tell and uh I would love for you to tell and uh I would love for you to tell people what you just recently heard. people what you just recently heard. people what you just recently heard. >> Yeah, I got the incredible news just >> Yeah, I got the incredible news just >> Yeah, I got the incredible news just about a month ago now that I am about a month ago now that I am about a month ago now that I am officially cancer-free. officially cancer-free. officially cancer-free. So, I was in remission for So, I was in remission for So, I was in remission for a good amount of time, a good amount of time, a good amount of time, and 2 years have passed now and 2 years have passed now and 2 years have passed now in remission, which in my particular in remission, which in my particular in remission, which in my particular diagnosis diagnosis diagnosis means that I go from regular scanning means that I go from regular scanning means that I go from regular scanning and monitoring to very irregular and monitoring to very irregular and monitoring to very irregular scanning and monitoring, and my official scanning and monitoring, and my official scanning and monitoring, and my official status goes uh to cancer-free. So, I get status goes uh to cancer-free. So, I get status goes uh to cancer-free. So, I get to live like a normal person like I did to live like a normal person like I did to live like a normal person like I did pre-diagnosis, which I'm so deeply pre-diagnosis, which I'm so deeply pre-diagnosis, which I'm so deeply grateful for.

grateful for. grateful for. >> I had a little health thing last year, >> I had a little health thing last year, >> I had a little health thing last year, and the number of times I've had my and the number of times I've had my and the number of times I've had my blood drawn, been to a specialist, or a blood drawn, been to a specialist, or a blood drawn, been to a specialist, or a doctor's doctor's doctor's office, I think more in the last year office, I think more in the last year office, I think more in the last year than the last 60 years combined, which than the last 60 years combined, which than the last 60 years combined, which is incredible. How did you find is incredible. How did you find is incredible. How did you find having all of that care and attention, having all of that care and attention, having all of that care and attention, plus leading a church and being a dad plus leading a church and being a dad plus leading a church and being a dad and being a husband. Like, how did you and being a husband. Like, how did you and being a husband. Like, how did you balance all that? Because I think a lot balance all that? Because I think a lot balance all that? Because I think a lot of of leaders can probably relate, not of of leaders can probably relate, not of of leaders can probably relate, not that they all have health problems, but that they all have health problems, but that they all have health problems, but you got a child who's going through a you got a child who's going through a you got a child who's going through a season or you're caring for parents and season or you're caring for parents and season or you're caring for parents and aging children. How did How did your aging children. How did How did your aging children. How did How did your workload change and how did you manage workload change and how did you manage workload change and how did you manage that while you were ill or even in that while you were ill or even in that while you were ill or even in recovery and just appointment after recovery and just appointment after recovery and just appointment after appointment after appointment? appointment after appointment? appointment after appointment? >> Yeah, thank you for asking. I think I >> Yeah, thank you for asking. I think I >> Yeah, thank you for asking. I think I would first say would first say would first say that if I did it over again today, I that if I did it over again today, I that if I did it over again today, I would slow down more and take more time would slow down more and take more time would slow down more and take more time off than I did. off than I did. off than I did. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um >> Um >> Um I think the spirit really used I think the spirit really used I think the spirit really used the period of time I went through cancer the period of time I went through cancer the period of time I went through cancer in my life to reveal in my life to reveal in my life to reveal uh uh uh some at least one lie that I would I've some at least one lie that I would I've some at least one lie that I would I've believed from for a long time.

believed from for a long time. believed from for a long time. Often, you know, the circumstances Often, you know, the circumstances Often, you know, the circumstances which are called liminal space, where which are called liminal space, where which are called liminal space, where our outside of our normal routine or our outside of our normal routine or our outside of our normal routine or life, and circumstances of suffering are life, and circumstances of suffering are life, and circumstances of suffering are often that kind of liminal space that we often that kind of liminal space that we often that kind of liminal space that we don't choose, but are thrust into don't choose, but are thrust into don't choose, but are thrust into against our will. against our will. against our will. Can be space where God does exponential Can be space where God does exponential Can be space where God does exponential work within us. And so, work within us. And so, work within us. And so, I I would first just say I I would first just say I I would first just say I discovered I discovered I discovered by going through cancer by going through cancer by going through cancer that that that I I I had a misunderstanding of what it means had a misunderstanding of what it means had a misunderstanding of what it means to love someone and to be loved that I to love someone and to be loved that I to love someone and to be loved that I equated with not putting a burden on equated with not putting a burden on equated with not putting a burden on someone else and I felt that someone else and I felt that someone else and I felt that by asking for help from my team at my by asking for help from my team at my by asking for help from my team at my local church, by doing less, local church, by doing less, local church, by doing less, I was not loving them well. I never I was not loving them well. I never I was not loving them well. I never would have articulated that out loud, would have articulated that out loud, would have articulated that out loud, but I I began to see that a lot of my but I I began to see that a lot of my but I I began to see that a lot of my actions were motivated from on core actions were motivated from on core actions were motivated from on core foundation.

foundation. foundation. So, while I did objectively slow down, So, while I did objectively slow down, So, while I did objectively slow down, I wish I had more. I wish I'd let myself I wish I had more. I wish I'd let myself I wish I had more. I wish I'd let myself be weaker. be weaker. be weaker. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um and let myself be loved more by the >> Um and let myself be loved more by the >> Um and let myself be loved more by the people that wanted to be there for me people that wanted to be there for me people that wanted to be there for me as I was going through it. Secondly, I as I was going through it. Secondly, I as I was going through it. Secondly, I would say would say would say I wrote a lot of sermons and responded I wrote a lot of sermons and responded I wrote a lot of sermons and responded to a lot of emails from oncologist to a lot of emails from oncologist to a lot of emails from oncologist offices. offices. offices. And while And while And while blood was being drawn from me or things blood was being drawn from me or things blood was being drawn from me or things were being pumped into my bloodstream, were being pumped into my bloodstream, were being pumped into my bloodstream, um and um and um and I I think I would say I I think I would say I I think I would say it's important to understand that my it's important to understand that my it's important to understand that my experience is that an oncology unit is experience is that an oncology unit is experience is that an oncology unit is very unique in a hospital setting very unique in a hospital setting very unique in a hospital setting because because because in an oncology unit, in an oncology unit, in an oncology unit, no one is in a hurry. no one is in a hurry. no one is in a hurry. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Everyone is >> Everyone is >> Everyone is slowly dying slowly dying slowly dying and being drip-fed poison.

and being drip-fed poison. and being drip-fed poison. Um and so, there's no emergencies, no Um and so, there's no emergencies, no Um and so, there's no emergencies, no new people coming in and out who new people coming in and out who new people coming in and out who suddenly require the doctor's attention. suddenly require the doctor's attention. suddenly require the doctor's attention. So, every member of my care team spent So, every member of my care team spent So, every member of my care team spent an enormous amount of time with me. an enormous amount of time with me. an enormous amount of time with me. Um and are people that I got to know Um and are people that I got to know Um and are people that I got to know quite deeply. quite deeply. quite deeply. So, I can remember So, I can remember So, I can remember even, you know, one of my nurses even, you know, one of my nurses even, you know, one of my nurses who drew my blood every time I went into who drew my blood every time I went into who drew my blood every time I went into the oncologist, which, you know, she the oncologist, which, you know, she the oncologist, which, you know, she must have drawn my blood well over 100 must have drawn my blood well over 100 must have drawn my blood well over 100 times at this point. times at this point. times at this point. She I remember this one time we'd She I remember this one time we'd She I remember this one time we'd connected cuz she's from Brooklyn and connected cuz she's from Brooklyn and connected cuz she's from Brooklyn and that's where I lived that's where I lived that's where I lived uh the longest period of my life. uh the longest period of my life. uh the longest period of my life. Um Um Um we'd gotten to know one another and and we'd gotten to know one another and and we'd gotten to know one another and and she was like, "So, I Googled you." she was like, "So, I Googled you." she was like, "So, I Googled you." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I was like, >> I was like, >> I was like, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> "Oh, yeah?" She was like, >> "Oh, yeah?" She was like, >> "Oh, yeah?" She was like, >> Here we go. >> Here we go. >> Here we go. >> "Yeah, you're a pretty good preacher. I >> "Yeah, you're a pretty good preacher. I >> "Yeah, you're a pretty good preacher. I listened to some of your teaching. And I listened to some of your teaching. And I listened to some of your teaching. And I was like, "Did you?" And we never had a was like, "Did you?" And we never had a was like, "Did you?" And we never had a conversation about faith. And so, you conversation about faith. And so, you conversation about faith. And so, you know, with every member of the team, one know, with every member of the team, one know, with every member of the team, one thing would lead to another like that.

thing would lead to another like that. thing would lead to another like that. And we ended up sharing more and more And we ended up sharing more and more And we ended up sharing more and more life. She, life. She, life. She, you know, saw many photos of my family, you know, saw many photos of my family, you know, saw many photos of my family, my children. my children. my children. Um and Um and Um and the day I was declared cancer-free, I the day I was declared cancer-free, I the day I was declared cancer-free, I was hugged by a whole lot of people. was hugged by a whole lot of people. was hugged by a whole lot of people. Um and celebrated with. Um and celebrated with. Um and celebrated with. And so, I would say I was deeply And so, I would say I was deeply And so, I would say I was deeply ministered to by the care team that I ministered to by the care team that I ministered to by the care team that I got to walk alongside. They showed me got to walk alongside. They showed me got to walk alongside. They showed me Jesus in so many ways Jesus in so many ways Jesus in so many ways by the way that they they suffered by the way that they they suffered by the way that they they suffered alongside me. They entered into my alongside me. They entered into my alongside me. They entered into my suffering with me. suffering with me. suffering with me. Um and patiently were attentive to me Um and patiently were attentive to me Um and patiently were attentive to me throughout it. throughout it. throughout it. And cheered for me like I was a member And cheered for me like I was a member And cheered for me like I was a member of their own families. of their own families. of their own families. And so, I I And so, I I And so, I I I think I think I think those are the reflections I would offer. those are the reflections I would offer. those are the reflections I would offer. And And I guess And And I guess And And I guess I I I how I dealt with that was different in how I dealt with that was different in how I dealt with that was different in each relationship. You know, with with each relationship. You know, with with each relationship. You know, with with my kids, which I think I will just speak my kids, which I think I will just speak my kids, which I think I will just speak to specifically, I have three little to specifically, I have three little to specifically, I have three little boys all under 10 years old.

boys all under 10 years old. boys all under 10 years old. And I just thought, you know, And I just thought, you know, And I just thought, you know, to see to see to see their father suffer their father suffer their father suffer is probably either going to be traumatic is probably either going to be traumatic is probably either going to be traumatic or formative or formative or formative in their stories. Cuz they're going to in their stories. Cuz they're going to in their stories. Cuz they're going to watch me deteriorate. And I I want to watch me deteriorate. And I I want to watch me deteriorate. And I I want to try to be thoughtful about how to choose try to be thoughtful about how to choose try to be thoughtful about how to choose the latter. the latter. the latter. And so, And so, And so, I shared the news quite bluntly with all I shared the news quite bluntly with all I shared the news quite bluntly with all of them. And we let them participate in of them. And we let them participate in of them. And we let them participate in everything that that meant for me along everything that that meant for me along everything that that meant for me along the way. Everyone that they could meet the way. Everyone that they could meet the way. Everyone that they could meet that was caring for me, everywhere they that was caring for me, everywhere they that was caring for me, everywhere they were allowed to go, I tried to take them were allowed to go, I tried to take them were allowed to go, I tried to take them at least once so they could see and at least once so they could see and at least once so they could see and understand what was happening to me. understand what was happening to me. understand what was happening to me. And And And based on their personalities and age and based on their personalities and age and based on their personalities and age and maturity levels, they all entered into maturity levels, they all entered into maturity levels, they all entered into that at different degrees of that at different degrees of that at different degrees of comprehension. comprehension. comprehension. But I think and hope But I think and hope But I think and hope that all of them that all of them that all of them cultivated empathy for others who suffer cultivated empathy for others who suffer cultivated empathy for others who suffer um um um whatever version of suffering that may whatever version of suffering that may whatever version of suffering that may be. I can say for my oldest son, Hank, be. I can say for my oldest son, Hank, be. I can say for my oldest son, Hank, um um um I I remember recently he came home and I I remember recently he came home and I I remember recently he came home and told me of another kid in his class told me of another kid in his class told me of another kid in his class whose dad has cancer.

whose dad has cancer. whose dad has cancer. Um and that's been a recent diagnosis Um and that's been a recent diagnosis Um and that's been a recent diagnosis and and and he shared with me some things he was he shared with me some things he was he shared with me some things he was able to share with that friend. able to share with that friend. able to share with that friend. And I you know, I I was And I you know, I I was And I you know, I I was really grateful really grateful really grateful just just to say like, oh, he's been just just to say like, oh, he's been just just to say like, oh, he's been formed. formed. formed. He He has a level of love and empathy He He has a level of love and empathy He He has a level of love and empathy and compassion for someone else that is and compassion for someone else that is and compassion for someone else that is uh uh uh outs- like outsized based on his age and outs- like outsized based on his age and outs- like outsized based on his age and maturity level maturity level maturity level um because um because um because he walked with me and he walked with me and he walked with me and our family through my situation. So, our family through my situation. So, our family through my situation. So, that's a long rambling answer. that's a long rambling answer. that's a long rambling answer. >> It's a really moving answer. You know, I >> It's a really moving answer. You know, I >> It's a really moving answer. You know, I did not go through cancer, but did not go through cancer, but did not go through cancer, but um um um it's making me reflect cuz it's been it's making me reflect cuz it's been it's making me reflect cuz it's been 13 months now since I was diagnosed and 13 months now since I was diagnosed and 13 months now since I was diagnosed and my blood work has all been normal since my blood work has all been normal since my blood work has all been normal since uh for 7 or 8 months. So, it was a quick uh for 7 or 8 months. So, it was a quick uh for 7 or 8 months. So, it was a quick recovery, but I would say recovery, but I would say recovery, but I would say you know, if you're watching TV and you you know, if you're watching TV and you you know, if you're watching TV and you see we interrupt this program to bring see we interrupt this program to bring see we interrupt this program to bring you this special bulletin and now back you this special bulletin and now back you this special bulletin and now back to our regularly scheduled program, to our regularly scheduled program, to our regularly scheduled program, I was on a mission to get back to the I was on a mission to get back to the I was on a mission to get back to the regularly scheduled program instantly.

regularly scheduled program instantly. regularly scheduled program instantly. And what you said about missing the And what you said about missing the And what you said about missing the care, the love, care, the love, care, the love, slowing down really really hit me. slowing down really really hit me. slowing down really really hit me. Um Um Um there is a lot lot of care for you. there is a lot lot of care for you. there is a lot lot of care for you. There is a lot of love. I got hundreds There is a lot of love. I got hundreds There is a lot of love. I got hundreds of texts and DMs of people who were of texts and DMs of people who were of texts and DMs of people who were praying for me and praying for me and praying for me and cared for me. And you know, there was a cared for me. And you know, there was a cared for me. And you know, there was a short season where we weren't sure what short season where we weren't sure what short season where we weren't sure what what was going on. Has that changed your pace permanently? Has that changed your pace permanently? Are you back to regularly scheduled Are you back to regularly scheduled Are you back to regularly scheduled programming? >> It it has changed my pace. Just last >> It it has changed my pace. Just last night night night I was I was I was sitting at dinner with sitting at dinner with sitting at dinner with one of my very closest friends. one of my very closest friends. one of my very closest friends. And he reflected to me And he reflected to me And he reflected to me how different he feels like I am than I how different he feels like I am than I how different he feels like I am than I was 5 years ago. And he also reflected was 5 years ago. And he also reflected was 5 years ago. And he also reflected to me, he's like, you have a very high to me, he's like, you have a very high to me, he's like, you have a very high capacity. You have a higher capacity capacity. You have a higher capacity capacity. You have a higher capacity than I do for holding ideas in your head than I do for holding ideas in your head than I do for holding ideas in your head or filling up your life. But or filling up your life. But or filling up your life. But but the way you are being yourself but the way you are being yourself but the way you are being yourself and what you are prioritizing most feels and what you are prioritizing most feels and what you are prioritizing most feels markedly different.

markedly different. markedly different. And so I think And so I think And so I think I think what it did is it it just made I think what it did is it it just made I think what it did is it it just made me me me more relational and it made more relational and it made more relational and it made my relational circle a little bit my relational circle a little bit my relational circle a little bit smaller. smaller. smaller. I think in a good way. I think in a good way. I think in a good way. Um Um Um and not in any and not in any and not in any way of like, well, let's see who my real way of like, well, let's see who my real way of like, well, let's see who my real friends are, who check, you know, friends are, who check, you know, friends are, who check, you know, nothing like that. More like, hey, I nothing like that. More like, hey, I nothing like that. More like, hey, I feel more aware feel more aware feel more aware that that that my my days are numbered. my my days are numbered. my my days are numbered. And And And I think I feel a good version of I think I feel a good version of I think I feel a good version of what it says in Ecclesiastes 1, just what it says in Ecclesiastes 1, just what it says in Ecclesiastes 1, just that that that a couple generations from I don't think a couple generations from I don't think a couple generations from I don't think anyone's going to remember what I anyone's going to remember what I anyone's going to remember what I accomplished or didn't. accomplished or didn't. accomplished or didn't. You know, I think You know, I think You know, I think um I think there are treasures hidden in I think there are treasures hidden in each day each day each day that are almost always not the shiniest that are almost always not the shiniest that are almost always not the shiniest parts of each day.

parts of each day. parts of each day. And to show up and be entirely present And to show up and be entirely present And to show up and be entirely present in those places where God can gift me in those places where God can gift me in those places where God can gift me love to give and receive with another love to give and receive with another love to give and receive with another person person person is to is to is to position myself to know the kingdom of position myself to know the kingdom of position myself to know the kingdom of God in my midst. God in my midst. God in my midst. And so I think I feel more And so I think I feel more And so I think I feel more centered on centered on centered on what's going to be okay what's going to be okay what's going to be okay and what requires my full presence and and what requires my full presence and and what requires my full presence and attention and how can attention and how can attention and how can I I I steward my time in a way that allows me steward my time in a way that allows me steward my time in a way that allows me to be entirely present relationally to be entirely present relationally to be entirely present relationally in those environments in those environments in those environments that uh that uh that uh that I treasure the most. that I treasure the most. that I treasure the most. >> It's funny how >> It's funny how >> It's funny how you know, at Bridgetown, both you and you know, at Bridgetown, both you and you know, at Bridgetown, both you and your good friend and predecessor John your good friend and predecessor John your good friend and predecessor John Mark Comer Mark Comer Mark Comer had different crises. had different crises. had different crises. Like John Mark's, I think it was, you Like John Mark's, I think it was, you Like John Mark's, I think it was, you know, almost burnout, can't stay on the know, almost burnout, can't stay on the know, almost burnout, can't stay on the hamster wheel forever, that drove him hamster wheel forever, that drove him hamster wheel forever, that drove him to that complete rethinking of life and to that complete rethinking of life and to that complete rethinking of life and what most of us know best as the what most of us know best as the what most of us know best as the ruthless elimination of hurry.

ruthless elimination of hurry. ruthless elimination of hurry. And And And you know, you come along, it's a a very you know, you come along, it's a a very you know, you come along, it's a a very similar similar similar thing where yes, you're thing where yes, you're thing where yes, you're contemplative, you're thoughtful, you're contemplative, you're thoughtful, you're contemplative, you're thoughtful, you're prayerful, prayerful, prayerful, you know, and yet there is a hurry you know, and yet there is a hurry you know, and yet there is a hurry in our leadership and in our life. in our leadership and in our life. in our leadership and in our life. Uh Uh Uh one of things that I you You if this one of things that I you You if this one of things that I you You if this goes nowhere and we spend 10 seconds on goes nowhere and we spend 10 seconds on goes nowhere and we spend 10 seconds on it, great. If if there's something it, great. If if there's something it, great. If if there's something there, let's talk about it. But one of there, let's talk about it. But one of there, let's talk about it. But one of the things I want to research in the the things I want to research in the the things I want to research in the future is how much of that is personal future is how much of that is personal future is how much of that is personal and how much of that is systemic. and how much of that is systemic. and how much of that is systemic. Do you know what I mean? Because I think Do you know what I mean? Because I think Do you know what I mean? Because I think personally, personally, personally, I've written a book on it, lots of I've written a book on it, lots of I've written a book on it, lots of people have written on it, John Mark's people have written on it, John Mark's people have written on it, John Mark's written on it. Like that that pace, we written on it. Like that that pace, we written on it. Like that that pace, we do have personal responsibility. I'm do have personal responsibility. I'm do have personal responsibility. I'm responsible for when I went to bed last responsible for when I went to bed last responsible for when I went to bed last night, when I got up, how much night, when I got up, how much night, when I got up, how much I bite off and often it's a little bit I bite off and often it's a little bit I bite off and often it's a little bit more than I can chew, how many trips I more than I can chew, how many trips I more than I can chew, how many trips I make a year. Like we have an incredible make a year. Like we have an incredible make a year. Like we have an incredible amount of agency and I feel like that's amount of agency and I feel like that's amount of agency and I feel like that's been been been um written about in a really healthy, um written about in a really healthy, um written about in a really healthy, helpful way, but yet the problem isn't helpful way, but yet the problem isn't helpful way, but yet the problem isn't solved. Um solved. Um solved. Um and I wonder how much of it is systemic, and I wonder how much of it is systemic, and I wonder how much of it is systemic, you know, leading a large church, you know, leading a large church, you know, leading a large church, getting up there Sunday after Sunday. Do getting up there Sunday after Sunday. Do getting up there Sunday after Sunday. Do you have any thoughts or insights on you have any thoughts or insights on you have any thoughts or insights on what is personal and what is systemic?

what is personal and what is systemic? what is personal and what is systemic? Like are you just stepping back into the Like are you just stepping back into the Like are you just stepping back into the machine? Is the machine machine? Is the machine machine? Is the machine uh uh uh malleable, shapeable, malleable, shapeable, malleable, shapeable, controllable, or is it even a machine? I controllable, or is it even a machine? I controllable, or is it even a machine? I don't know. I'm just thinking about don't know. I'm just thinking about don't know. I'm just thinking about that. I think I'm I'm going to write on that. I think I'm I'm going to write on that. I think I'm I'm going to write on that in the future, but curious. that in the future, but curious. that in the future, but curious. >> Interesting. Yeah, I I think >> Interesting. Yeah, I I think >> Interesting. Yeah, I I think I'll share a little anecdote that I I'll share a little anecdote that I I'll share a little anecdote that I think relates. So, think relates. So, think relates. So, I I recall an occasion just a couple of I recall an occasion just a couple of years ago years ago years ago when I was just coming out of when I was just coming out of when I was just coming out of uh chemotherapy treatment uh chemotherapy treatment uh chemotherapy treatment and I was making some decisions to slow and I was making some decisions to slow and I was making some decisions to slow down and simplify. down and simplify. down and simplify. And I was sharing that with And I was sharing that with And I was sharing that with I I'll just say directly, I was sharing I I'll just say directly, I was sharing I I'll just say directly, I was sharing with Pete Greg who serves as a mentor with Pete Greg who serves as a mentor with Pete Greg who serves as a mentor and spiritual father in my life and has and spiritual father in my life and has and spiritual father in my life and has for years. for years. for years. We're sitting on my back porch together We're sitting on my back porch together We're sitting on my back porch together and and I I telling him and and he said, and I I telling him and and he said, "Okay, Tyler.

"Okay, Tyler. "Okay, Tyler. I think all of that sounds really good. I think all of that sounds really good. I think all of that sounds really good. And I think you probably should And I think you probably should And I think you probably should step away from these different step away from these different step away from these different leadership commitments, and you've leadership commitments, and you've leadership commitments, and you've filled your plate a little too full. filled your plate a little too full. filled your plate a little too full. But, clearing your plate of these things is clearing your plate of these things is not going to make you not going to make you not going to make you play soccer with your son more. play soccer with your son more. play soccer with your son more. You're going to have to deal with what's You're going to have to deal with what's You're going to have to deal with what's inside of you inside of you inside of you if you want to do that. And you need to if you want to do that. And you need to if you want to do that. And you need to spend a lot of time with Jesus spend a lot of time with Jesus spend a lot of time with Jesus discovering discovering discovering what is it inside of me what is it inside of me what is it inside of me that makes me believe that life is that makes me believe that life is that makes me believe that life is fullest when my plate is fullest. fullest when my plate is fullest. fullest when my plate is fullest. And so, I tend to fill up any excess And so, I tend to fill up any excess And so, I tend to fill up any excess time that I create. time that I create. time that I create. And And And he's like, "So, deal with the external he's like, "So, deal with the external he's like, "So, deal with the external stuff, but the external stuff is just stuff, but the external stuff is just stuff, but the external stuff is just going to give you space to deal with the going to give you space to deal with the going to give you space to deal with the internal issue. internal issue. internal issue. Um Um Um and make sure you deal with that." And and make sure you deal with that." And and make sure you deal with that." And then he journeyed with me as I dealt then he journeyed with me as I dealt then he journeyed with me as I dealt with that, and I'm still dealing with with that, and I'm still dealing with with that, and I'm still dealing with that.

that. that. But, I would say what's What is inside But, I would say what's What is inside But, I would say what's What is inside of me that is complicit involves of me that is complicit involves of me that is complicit involves uh generational sin patterns that I uh generational sin patterns that I uh generational sin patterns that I believe I've inherited through my family believe I've inherited through my family believe I've inherited through my family line, and involves line, and involves line, and involves my personality structure, and my personality structure, and my personality structure, and and often I think the things we're and often I think the things we're and often I think the things we're talking about are difficult talking about are difficult talking about are difficult [clears throat] because [clears throat] because [clears throat] because the answer is not the answer is not the answer is not well, just say no to everything and be well, just say no to everything and be well, just say no to everything and be incredibly guarded around your time and incredibly guarded around your time and incredibly guarded around your time and super planned. You super planned. You super planned. You Cuz you could easily read the pages of Cuz you could easily read the pages of Cuz you could easily read the pages of the Gospels and be like, "Well, Jesus the Gospels and be like, "Well, Jesus the Gospels and be like, "Well, Jesus seems to run at a totally unsustainable seems to run at a totally unsustainable seems to run at a totally unsustainable pace quite often." And Jesus allows pace quite often." And Jesus allows pace quite often." And Jesus allows himself to be interrupted, and sure he himself to be interrupted, and sure he himself to be interrupted, and sure he does withdraw to hidden places and pray. does withdraw to hidden places and pray. does withdraw to hidden places and pray. But, Jesus also says, "Hey, we need to But, Jesus also says, "Hey, we need to But, Jesus also says, "Hey, we need to go and some rest." And then shows up and go and some rest." And then shows up and go and some rest." And then shows up and there's 5,000 people there and he feeds there's 5,000 people there and he feeds there's 5,000 people there and he feeds all of them. You know, so all of them. You know, so all of them. You know, so >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> How do I know which Jesus I'm supposed >> How do I know which Jesus I'm supposed >> How do I know which Jesus I'm supposed to be in any given moment? And to be in any given moment? And to be in any given moment? And >> Yeah, tired as he was from the journey, >> Yeah, tired as he was from the journey, >> Yeah, tired as he was from the journey, another telling verse. another telling verse. another telling verse. >> Sure.

>> Sure. >> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think I think I would just say I would just say I would just say all of us all of us all of us um um um have to identify have to identify have to identify the true and false self within us. the true and false self within us. the true and false self within us. And what God has given me to steward And what God has given me to steward And what God has given me to steward right now right now right now and how I should order my life to and how I should order my life to and how I should order my life to steward that well. steward that well. steward that well. And I think hurry And I think hurry And I think hurry is less is less is less the type of sobriety the type of sobriety the type of sobriety that an alcoholic pursues that an alcoholic pursues that an alcoholic pursues and it's more the type of sobriety that and it's more the type of sobriety that and it's more the type of sobriety that someone with an eating disorder pursues. someone with an eating disorder pursues. someone with an eating disorder pursues. Because at the end of the day Because at the end of the day Because at the end of the day it's the answer isn't just it's the answer isn't just it's the answer isn't just "Hey, just live. Everyone should just "Hey, just live. Everyone should just "Hey, just live. Everyone should just live live live at the pace of a cloistered monk." at the pace of a cloistered monk." at the pace of a cloistered monk." I think it's more like everyone needs to I think it's more like everyone needs to I think it's more like everyone needs to relearn a healthy relationship relearn a healthy relationship relearn a healthy relationship to to to the commitments and demands that they the commitments and demands that they the commitments and demands that they are choosing in their lives.

are choosing in their lives. are choosing in their lives. And so, yes, you've cultivated a toxic And so, yes, you've cultivated a toxic And so, yes, you've cultivated a toxic relationship to something that relationship to something that relationship to something that uh is good. uh is good. uh is good. But that doesn't mean you should But that doesn't mean you should But that doesn't mean you should eliminate it entirely. It means you need eliminate it entirely. It means you need eliminate it entirely. It means you need to relearn a healthy relationship to to relearn a healthy relationship to to relearn a healthy relationship to those things so that you're able to make those things so that you're able to make those things so that you're able to make healthy decisions day in and day out. healthy decisions day in and day out. healthy decisions day in and day out. And that's I think I'm chipping away at And that's I think I'm chipping away at And that's I think I'm chipping away at that. that. that. >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the Tim Tebow Group. Hey, I want to take a Tim Tebow Group. Hey, I want to take a Tim Tebow Group. Hey, I want to take a second to tell you about Tim Tebow's second to tell you about Tim Tebow's second to tell you about Tim Tebow's latest book. The book If the Tree Could latest book. The book If the Tree Could latest book. The book If the Tree Could Speak is powerful. So, it tells the Speak is powerful. So, it tells the Speak is powerful. So, it tells the story of Jesus' sacrifice from the story of Jesus' sacrifice from the story of Jesus' sacrifice from the perspective of the cross itself. It's perspective of the cross itself. It's perspective of the cross itself. It's paired with stunning illustrations that paired with stunning illustrations that paired with stunning illustrations that bring the whole thing to life in a way bring the whole thing to life in a way bring the whole thing to life in a way that is genuinely moving. So, whether that is genuinely moving. So, whether that is genuinely moving. So, whether you're reading it with your own kids, you're reading it with your own kids, you're reading it with your own kids, with your grandkids, or honestly just on with your grandkids, or honestly just on with your grandkids, or honestly just on your own, it's a kind of story that your own, it's a kind of story that your own, it's a kind of story that slows you down and reminds you of what slows you down and reminds you of what slows you down and reminds you of what actually matters. It's faith-filled, actually matters. It's faith-filled, actually matters. It's faith-filled, thoughtful, and unlike anything else out thoughtful, and unlike anything else out thoughtful, and unlike anything else out there right now. You can pick up a copy there right now. You can pick up a copy there right now. You can pick up a copy of If the Tree Could Speak wherever of If the Tree Could Speak wherever of If the Tree Could Speak wherever books are sold or head to the link in books are sold or head to the link in books are sold or head to the link in the show notes today. This episode is the show notes today. This episode is the show notes today. This episode is brought to you by Subsplash. AI is brought to you by Subsplash. AI is brought to you by Subsplash. AI is changing pretty much everything right changing pretty much everything right changing pretty much everything right now, and the church, no exception. But, now, and the church, no exception. But, now, and the church, no exception. But, here's what I've noticed. A lot of here's what I've noticed. A lot of here's what I've noticed. A lot of leaders are either ignoring AI leaders are either ignoring AI leaders are either ignoring AI completely or throwing generic tools at completely or throwing generic tools at completely or throwing generic tools at ministry problems that, honestly, the ministry problems that, honestly, the ministry problems that, honestly, the tools weren't built to solve. So, tools weren't built to solve. So, tools weren't built to solve. So, Subsplash has been thinking about this Subsplash has been thinking about this Subsplash has been thinking about this differently. They build AI tools to meet differently. They build AI tools to meet differently. They build AI tools to meet the specific needs pastors and ministry

the specific needs pastors and ministry the specific needs pastors and ministry leaders are asking for. With Subsplash, leaders are asking for. With Subsplash, leaders are asking for. With Subsplash, you can analyze your giving and you can analyze your giving and you can analyze your giving and engagement trends in a secure way. You engagement trends in a secure way. You engagement trends in a secure way. You can consolidate your media process to go can consolidate your media process to go can consolidate your media process to go from live stream to library to social from live stream to library to social from live stream to library to social content and resources in minutes. And content and resources in minutes. And content and resources in minutes. And you can set up automated ministry you can set up automated ministry you can set up automated ministry workflows that keep people from falling workflows that keep people from falling workflows that keep people from falling through the cracks, all made simple by through the cracks, all made simple by through the cracks, all made simple by leveraging AI. For leaders that are leveraging AI. For leaders that are leveraging AI. For leaders that are already stretched thin, that's not just already stretched thin, that's not just already stretched thin, that's not just a nice to have, that's a a nice to have, that's a a nice to have, that's a difference-maker for your entire team. difference-maker for your entire team. difference-maker for your entire team. If you want to see what AI tools built If you want to see what AI tools built If you want to see what AI tools built specifically for ministry look like, specifically for ministry look like, specifically for ministry look like, head to Subsplash.com/carey head to Subsplash.com/carey head to Subsplash.com/carey and save $500 when you sign up. and save $500 when you sign up. and save $500 when you sign up. >> I've never heard that metaphor. It is >> I've never heard that metaphor. It is >> I've never heard that metaphor. It is really interesting, you're right, really interesting, you're right, really interesting, you're right, because you can just say once and done because you can just say once and done because you can just say once and done with alcohol, not that, you know, I know with alcohol, not that, you know, I know with alcohol, not that, you know, I know it's much more complicated than that. it's much more complicated than that. it's much more complicated than that. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> But, eating, you got to keep eating. >> But, eating, you got to keep eating. >> But, eating, you got to keep eating. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And I think you're right. I mean, a lot >> And I think you're right. I mean, a lot >> And I think you're right. I mean, a lot of us are wired as serial entrepreneurs. of us are wired as serial entrepreneurs. of us are wired as serial entrepreneurs. If If this shuts down today, we will If If this shuts down today, we will If If this shuts down today, we will find something to do tomorrow.

find something to do tomorrow. find something to do tomorrow. And the pace will come back. And the pace will come back. And the pace will come back. >> And it is true. Like there's a >> And it is true. Like there's a >> And it is true. Like there's a there is a very toxic culture there is a very toxic culture there is a very toxic culture in the North American church in the North American church in the North American church and maybe in the Western church in and maybe in the Western church in and maybe in the Western church in general general general that wants me that wants me that wants me to live my leadership life to live my leadership life to live my leadership life in a way that in a way that in a way that destroys destroys destroys me slowly over time. me slowly over time. me slowly over time. And I am And I am And I am surrounded by people surrounded by people surrounded by people that with the very best of intentions that with the very best of intentions that with the very best of intentions will celebrate me will celebrate me will celebrate me and then be deeply disappointed in me. and then be deeply disappointed in me. and then be deeply disappointed in me. That the day that the system I'm a part That the day that the system I'm a part That the day that the system I'm a part of of of breaks my back the way it's broken the breaks my back the way it's broken the breaks my back the way it's broken the back of so many people. So I have to be back of so many people. So I have to be back of so many people. So I have to be aware of that. aware of that. aware of that. And I have to be discerning with that. And I have to be discerning with that. And I have to be discerning with that. There's a systemic issue. There's a systemic issue. There's a systemic issue. Um Um Um but I think but I think but I think there is also a personal issue there is also a personal issue there is also a personal issue um that I have at least.

um that I have at least. um that I have at least. And And And and it really for me and it really for me and it really for me comes down to comes down to comes down to I guess it's interesting you brought I guess it's interesting you brought I guess it's interesting you brought John Mark who's you know one of my best John Mark who's you know one of my best John Mark who's you know one of my best friends in the world. You're right that friends in the world. You're right that friends in the world. You're right that both of us are running into both of us are running into both of us are running into a pace at which a pace at which a pace at which the life of apprenticeship to Jesus is the life of apprenticeship to Jesus is the life of apprenticeship to Jesus is lived being slower than the pace that I lived being slower than the pace that I lived being slower than the pace that I found myself taking on. found myself taking on. found myself taking on. And I think for him that was about And I think for him that was about And I think for him that was about survival and for me it's about joy. survival and for me it's about joy. survival and for me it's about joy. Like I I began to realize Like I I began to realize Like I I began to realize I'm accidentally forfeiting joy in the I'm accidentally forfeiting joy in the I'm accidentally forfeiting joy in the name of productivity. name of productivity. name of productivity. And And And I think I think I think at the end of the day at the end of the day at the end of the day that is not Christ's invitation to me. that is not Christ's invitation to me. that is not Christ's invitation to me. And for me to live at a pace And for me to live at a pace And for me to live at a pace of joy involves moving slow enough to be of joy involves moving slow enough to be of joy involves moving slow enough to be entirely present without multitasking entirely present without multitasking entirely present without multitasking relationally to the person right in relationally to the person right in relationally to the person right in front of me.

front of me. front of me. But there's this impulse within me But there's this impulse within me But there's this impulse within me that I have to quiet every day, every that I have to quiet every day, every that I have to quiet every day, every morning morning morning that wants to produce. that wants to produce. that wants to produce. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And I don't know that that comes from a >> And I don't know that that comes from a >> And I don't know that that comes from a whole conundrum of sin patterns that whole conundrum of sin patterns that whole conundrum of sin patterns that I've come by quite honestly and I've come by quite honestly and I've come by quite honestly and complicitly. complicitly. complicitly. >> I want to put a pin in this and I want >> I want to put a pin in this and I want >> I want to put a pin in this and I want to come back to it because uh maybe not to come back to it because uh maybe not to come back to it because uh maybe not in today's conversation, but I think in today's conversation, but I think in today's conversation, but I think this is a wider dialogue we have to have this is a wider dialogue we have to have this is a wider dialogue we have to have in the church and it is a project I want in the church and it is a project I want in the church and it is a project I want to embark on. I've got another one right to embark on. I've got another one right to embark on. I've got another one right now. Here we are again describing our now. Here we are again describing our now. Here we are again describing our own poison. But yeah, I mean I think the own poison. But yeah, I mean I think the own poison. But yeah, I mean I think the only critique we really have right now only critique we really have right now only critique we really have right now is oh, all large churches are evil, they is oh, all large churches are evil, they is oh, all large churches are evil, they destroy people, therefore they're bad. destroy people, therefore they're bad. destroy people, therefore they're bad. It's not a thoughtful dialogue. Um large It's not a thoughtful dialogue. Um large It's not a thoughtful dialogue. Um large churches do a lot of good, small churches do a lot of good, small churches do a lot of good, small churches do a lot of good and yet churches do a lot of good and yet churches do a lot of good and yet there's something in the system. there's something in the system. there's something in the system. Uh we have a lot of agency as you're Uh we have a lot of agency as you're Uh we have a lot of agency as you're right, generational sin. I'm a right, generational sin. I'm a right, generational sin. I'm a performer, I'm a producer, too much of performer, I'm a producer, too much of performer, I'm a producer, too much of my identity is is my identity is is my identity is is um um um bound up in what I produce and I am bound up in what I produce and I am bound up in what I produce and I am actively working on that.

actively working on that. actively working on that. And and yet there is something about the And and yet there is something about the And and yet there is something about the system that I want to have a look at. system that I want to have a look at. system that I want to have a look at. But I want to speaking of joy, you're But I want to speaking of joy, you're But I want to speaking of joy, you're writing. writing. writing. Tyler. Tyler. Tyler. I'll tell you, I'm I'm too I've been I'll tell you, I'm I'm too I've been I'll tell you, I'm I'm too I've been thinking a lot about AI, that's my thinking a lot about AI, that's my thinking a lot about AI, that's my current project and one of my current current project and one of my current current project and one of my current rants in the summer of 2026 is rants in the summer of 2026 is rants in the summer of 2026 is everything online sounds the same. everything online sounds the same. everything online sounds the same. Because everyone's using the same Because everyone's using the same Because everyone's using the same technology, so it just comes out, you technology, so it just comes out, you technology, so it just comes out, you can predict the pattern, you know when can predict the pattern, you know when can predict the pattern, you know when AI I AI I AI I a lot of people can tell when AI wrote a lot of people can tell when AI wrote a lot of people can tell when AI wrote it. it. it. I'm literally half a paragraph into I'm literally half a paragraph into I'm literally half a paragraph into after a man and I'm like, oh, I see your after a man and I'm like, oh, I see your after a man and I'm like, oh, I see your soul. soul. soul. There was just a style of of writing, of There was just a style of of writing, of There was just a style of of writing, of thinking, of breathing. thinking, of breathing. thinking, of breathing. It's a it's a different kind of book. It's a it's a different kind of book. It's a it's a different kind of book. It's it's not just a book of nonfiction, It's it's not just a book of nonfiction, It's it's not just a book of nonfiction, it's poetry. it's poetry. it's poetry. It's prose, it's narrative. It's prose, it's narrative. It's prose, it's narrative. It's beautiful. And um It's beautiful. And um It's beautiful. And um you're developing a very distinct style you're developing a very distinct style you're developing a very distinct style as a man in his 30s. So, I'd I'd love to as a man in his 30s. So, I'd I'd love to as a man in his 30s. So, I'd I'd love to start First of all, just know it's a start First of all, just know it's a start First of all, just know it's a beautiful book. I told you I ordered my beautiful book. I told you I ordered my beautiful book. I told you I ordered my own copy. I told my wife we both have to own copy. I told my wife we both have to own copy. I told my wife we both have to read this this summer.

read this this summer. read this this summer. And I get a lot of books. And I get a lot of books. And I get a lot of books. >> Thank you, brother. >> Thank you, brother. >> Thank you, brother. >> How how you How are you developing your >> How how you How are you developing your >> How how you How are you developing your voice voice voice as a preacher and as a writer? as a preacher and as a writer? as a preacher and as a writer? >> I I'm not sure I know how to answer >> I I'm not sure I know how to answer >> I I'm not sure I know how to answer that. Ask me that a different way. that. Ask me that a different way. that. Ask me that a different way. >> One Monday morning in early spring, I >> One Monday morning in early spring, I >> One Monday morning in early spring, I was jogging in one of my usual routes was jogging in one of my usual routes was jogging in one of my usual routes along the Columbia River that slices along the Columbia River that slices along the Columbia River that slices through the heart of downtown Portland. through the heart of downtown Portland. through the heart of downtown Portland. The gray and steady rains that serve as The gray and steady rains that serve as The gray and steady rains that serve as the trademark of the Pacific the trademark of the Pacific the trademark of the Pacific Northwestern winter had lifted and this Northwestern winter had lifted and this Northwestern winter had lifted and this particular morning was unseasonably particular morning was unseasonably particular morning was unseasonably clear. clear. clear. The sun came up in such a dazzling The sun came up in such a dazzling The sun came up in such a dazzling display of orange, pink, and purple display of orange, pink, and purple display of orange, pink, and purple watercolor hues that I stopped in my watercolor hues that I stopped in my watercolor hues that I stopped in my tracks to drink it in. tracks to drink it in. tracks to drink it in. I mean, I was that far in and I'm like, I mean, I was that far in and I'm like, I mean, I was that far in and I'm like, oh man. oh man. oh man. I don't know. Maybe that maybe you've I don't know. Maybe that maybe you've I don't know. Maybe that maybe you've thought about it that way, life and you thought about it that way, life and you thought about it that way, life and you know, putting pen to paper since you know, putting pen to paper since you know, putting pen to paper since you were 10 years old. were 10 years old. were 10 years old. But I read that and I'm like, But I read that and I'm like, But I read that and I'm like, that is really beautiful, thoughtful that is really beautiful, thoughtful that is really beautiful, thoughtful writing and I'm there.

writing and I'm there. writing and I'm there. In a moment and I think and I'm I'll In a moment and I think and I'm I'll In a moment and I think and I'm I'll frame this for you in a second to frame this for you in a second to frame this for you in a second to answer. answer. answer. I think one of the advantages you have I think one of the advantages you have I think one of the advantages you have is you've had a decade and a half as a is you've had a decade and a half as a is you've had a decade and a half as a leader, you know, since your 20th leader, you know, since your 20th leader, you know, since your 20th birthday, let's say. birthday, let's say. birthday, let's say. Um where you haven't had artificial Um where you haven't had artificial Um where you haven't had artificial intelligence that was willing to do the intelligence that was willing to do the intelligence that was willing to do the heavy lifting for you. You you had to heavy lifting for you. You you had to heavy lifting for you. You you had to write those sermons from scratch when write those sermons from scratch when write those sermons from scratch when you were a seminarian and uh you know, you were a seminarian and uh you know, you were a seminarian and uh you know, you're a couple books in now and you you're a couple books in now and you you're a couple books in now and you were writing from scratch. That's an were writing from scratch. That's an were writing from scratch. That's an advantage. I've got decades and decades advantage. I've got decades and decades advantage. I've got decades and decades of of of learning what my voice is and isn't. But learning what my voice is and isn't. But learning what my voice is and isn't. But if you're 20 right now if you're 20 right now if you're 20 right now and you could go through your whole and you could go through your whole and you could go through your whole undergraduate with degree and have undergraduate with degree and have undergraduate with degree and have AI produce a lot of your work, how do AI produce a lot of your work, how do AI produce a lot of your work, how do you even know your voice? So I'm really you even know your voice? So I'm really you even know your voice? So I'm really curious. Like when I read that and that curious. Like when I read that and that curious. Like when I read that and that was an excerpt from After Amen, by the was an excerpt from After Amen, by the was an excerpt from After Amen, by the way. way. way. Uh I'm like, oh, this is a man who has a Uh I'm like, oh, this is a man who has a Uh I'm like, oh, this is a man who has a very very very distinctive, thoughtful, poetic, distinctive, thoughtful, poetic, distinctive, thoughtful, poetic, beautiful voice at at a pretty young beautiful voice at at a pretty young beautiful voice at at a pretty young age. age. age. Which is great.

Which is great. Which is great. Um so I'm just wondering, I mean, maybe Um so I'm just wondering, I mean, maybe Um so I'm just wondering, I mean, maybe you haven't thought about it a lot, but you haven't thought about it a lot, but you haven't thought about it a lot, but like what what are you doing to develop like what what are you doing to develop like what what are you doing to develop that style of writing that I would say that style of writing that I would say that style of writing that I would say has your fingerprints on it. It doesn't has your fingerprints on it. It doesn't has your fingerprints on it. It doesn't sound like other things I'm reading. >> Thank you. That's That's really kind. >> Thank you. That's That's really kind. I'm really I'm really I'm really encouraged to hear that that's your encouraged to hear that that's your encouraged to hear that that's your interaction. Um interaction. Um interaction. Um >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> I I have a great great >> I I have a great great >> I I have a great great respect for words. respect for words. respect for words. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> I think >> I think >> I think probably one of the greatest problems probably one of the greatest problems probably one of the greatest problems with Christian literature with Christian literature with Christian literature is that it's often done in a way that is that it's often done in a way that is that it's often done in a way that doesn't respect the art of words. And doesn't respect the art of words. And doesn't respect the art of words. And that doesn't mean that I'm always that doesn't mean that I'm always that doesn't mean that I'm always arranging words perfectly on a canvas. arranging words perfectly on a canvas. arranging words perfectly on a canvas. But I think it does mean like I But I think it does mean like I But I think it does mean like I I view this as an art form to write, I view this as an art form to write, I view this as an art form to write, whether it's writing a sermon or writing whether it's writing a sermon or writing whether it's writing a sermon or writing a book, a book, a book, or whatever.

or whatever. or whatever. And And And and I think as preachers, there needs to and I think as preachers, there needs to and I think as preachers, there needs to be greater respect be greater respect be greater respect for the the power of words. Words for the the power of words. Words for the the power of words. Words shape shape shape culture and ideas. culture and ideas. culture and ideas. Like words shape how people relate to Like words shape how people relate to Like words shape how people relate to God and themselves and others. God and themselves and others. God and themselves and others. Words create the culture of the Words create the culture of the Words create the culture of the community that I lead. community that I lead. community that I lead. And so And so And so to be These are tools that God has given to be These are tools that God has given to be These are tools that God has given me me me to enact his government in the world. to enact his government in the world. to enact his government in the world. And so I I need to think artistically And so I I need to think artistically And so I I need to think artistically about them. And I just love words. about them. And I just love words. about them. And I just love words. Like I'm I'm moved by words. I Like I'm I'm moved by words. I Like I'm I'm moved by words. I I read I read I read quite broadly. You know, I read fiction quite broadly. You know, I read fiction quite broadly. You know, I read fiction and non-fiction. I always have a novel and non-fiction. I always have a novel and non-fiction. I always have a novel going or a memoir. going or a memoir. going or a memoir. I read poetry every night before I go to I read poetry every night before I go to I read poetry every night before I go to bed bed bed because it helps me see my life because it helps me see my life because it helps me see my life in the wonder and awe that I think life in the wonder and awe that I think life in the wonder and awe that I think life should be viewed through. It is an should be viewed through. It is an should be viewed through. It is an absolute miracle absolute miracle absolute miracle that I exist.

that I exist. that I exist. And And And I only get I only get I only get so many so many so many springs, you know? And And I'm living springs, you know? And And I'm living springs, you know? And And I'm living right now in a world where everything's right now in a world where everything's right now in a world where everything's coming to life all over again. And it coming to life all over again. And it coming to life all over again. And it all has the beaming image of the creator all has the beaming image of the creator all has the beaming image of the creator within it. And poetry helps me see that within it. And poetry helps me see that within it. And poetry helps me see that and be attuned to it and be attuned to it and be attuned to it um um um in a way that I think in a way that I think in a way that I think is deeply biblical. Like this is what is deeply biblical. Like this is what is deeply biblical. Like this is what the psalmist was doing. The psalmist The the psalmist was doing. The psalmist The the psalmist was doing. The psalmist The Psalm 19 talks about the sun Psalm 19 talks about the sun Psalm 19 talks about the sun as a representation of Jesus, a as a representation of Jesus, a as a representation of Jesus, a bridegroom bursting forth from his bridegroom bursting forth from his bridegroom bursting forth from his chamber. The psalmist chamber. The psalmist chamber. The psalmist David in that Psalm seems to understand David in that Psalm seems to understand David in that Psalm seems to understand like like like There's this this preacher who preaches There's this this preacher who preaches There's this this preacher who preaches a sermon every single day. a sermon every single day. a sermon every single day. His name is the sun. His name is the sun. His name is the sun. And he's actually not a fire and And he's actually not a fire and And he's actually not a fire and brimstone preacher. It's a brimstone preacher. It's a brimstone preacher. It's a He's a common grace preacher He's a common grace preacher He's a common grace preacher who rises who rises who rises brilliantly brilliantly brilliantly some mornings and gently the others and some mornings and gently the others and some mornings and gently the others and closes his sermon in the most dazzling closes his sermon in the most dazzling closes his sermon in the most dazzling display every evening display every evening display every evening and showers the grace and love of God on and showers the grace and love of God on and showers the grace and love of God on all of creation, those who recognize and all of creation, those who recognize and all of creation, those who recognize and don't. And that tells me something about don't. And that tells me something about don't. And that tells me something about God. So, anyway, I think I'm rambling God. So, anyway, I think I'm rambling God. So, anyway, I think I'm rambling just to say just to say just to say if I was talking to a 20-year-old and if I was talking to a 20-year-old and if I was talking to a 20-year-old and they said, "Hey, I want to cultivate a they said, "Hey, I want to cultivate a they said, "Hey, I want to cultivate a distinct voice." I would

distinct voice." I would distinct voice." I would first say first say first say you should really read. you should really read. you should really read. And you shouldn't You should read And you shouldn't You should read And you shouldn't You should read non-fiction Christian books. non-fiction Christian books. non-fiction Christian books. But you should also read But you should also read But you should also read literature. You should read the literature. You should read the literature. You should read the best-selling novels of the New York best-selling novels of the New York best-selling novels of the New York Times in the last year and you should Times in the last year and you should Times in the last year and you should read the classics. You should read read the classics. You should read read the classics. You should read people's memoirs and people's memoirs and people's memoirs and and walk in the shoes of all sorts of and walk in the shoes of all sorts of and walk in the shoes of all sorts of people that you hope to go to people that you hope to go to people that you hope to go to communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ to so you can understand what their life to so you can understand what their life to so you can understand what their life feels like and you can feels like and you can feels like and you can teach in such a way that would connect teach in such a way that would connect teach in such a way that would connect with the felt needs and pain points of with the felt needs and pain points of with the felt needs and pain points of those people. And you should read in a those people. And you should read in a those people. And you should read in a way that opens your eyes like read way that opens your eyes like read way that opens your eyes like read poetry, different forms of art that poetry, different forms of art that poetry, different forms of art that opens your eyes to look how this person opens your eyes to look how this person opens your eyes to look how this person is arranging these lines and what is arranging these lines and what is arranging these lines and what they're doing with these words and what they're doing with these words and what they're doing with these words and what those words are doing to you. those words are doing to you. those words are doing to you. And then And then And then I think I would also say I think I would also say I think I would also say um you should try to you should try to craft words in a way that is craft words in a way that is craft words in a way that is authentically true to you authentically true to you authentically true to you and doesn't sound like someone else. So, and doesn't sound like someone else. So, and doesn't sound like someone else. So, don't try to be a original and don't be don't try to be a original and don't be don't try to be a original and don't be an imitator.

an imitator. an imitator. And be okay imitating for a time the And be okay imitating for a time the And be okay imitating for a time the voice of those voice of those voice of those who you deeply respect and have been who you deeply respect and have been who you deeply respect and have been shaped by and assume that hopefully shaped by and assume that hopefully shaped by and assume that hopefully you're taking a little you're taking a little you're taking a little note from these different practitioners note from these different practitioners note from these different practitioners of word and spirit who have come before of word and spirit who have come before of word and spirit who have come before you in cultivating your own voice. you in cultivating your own voice. you in cultivating your own voice. Um Um Um so, yeah, I think so, yeah, I think so, yeah, I think the concern I have that I was noting the concern I have that I was noting the concern I have that I was noting before comes down to the fact that there's so much Christian literature there's so much Christian literature being created today being created today being created today that is essentially like, "This sermon that is essentially like, "This sermon that is essentially like, "This sermon series seemed to go well. Maybe series seemed to go well. Maybe series seemed to go well. Maybe there's someone or a machine who could there's someone or a machine who could there's someone or a machine who could turn it into a book for me turn it into a book for me turn it into a book for me and people would like it." And I think and people would like it." And I think and people would like it." And I think whenever I release whenever I release whenever I release a book, I've two things in mind. And a book, I've two things in mind. And a book, I've two things in mind. And when I preach sermons or anything, I I when I preach sermons or anything, I I when I preach sermons or anything, I I think number one, think number one, think number one, how this does in the first year or how this does in the first year or how this does in the first year or decade, I don't think it's an accurate decade, I don't think it's an accurate decade, I don't think it's an accurate measure of what is the measure of what is the measure of what is the the worth of this thing. Because most of the worth of this thing. Because most of the worth of this thing. Because most of the books that have shaped me deeply the books that have shaped me deeply the books that have shaped me deeply are written by people who are currently are written by people who are currently are written by people who are currently dead and I have no idea how they did on dead and I have no idea how they did on dead and I have no idea how they did on the bestseller lists. You know, the bestseller lists. You know, the bestseller lists. You know, [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] I only know that they said something I only know that they said something I only know that they said something true enough to endure longer than the

true enough to endure longer than the true enough to endure longer than the life of the person who wrote them. And life of the person who wrote them. And life of the person who wrote them. And so, that's always my prayer for the so, that's always my prayer for the so, that's always my prayer for the things I write. Like, if this can things I write. Like, if this can things I write. Like, if this can outlive me, outlive me, outlive me, then that would be a dream. And then, then that would be a dream. And then, then that would be a dream. And then, the second thing is, the second thing is, the second thing is, I try to keep firmly in mind I try to keep firmly in mind I try to keep firmly in mind that of all the Christian books and that of all the Christian books and that of all the Christian books and presentations of the gospel put on paper presentations of the gospel put on paper presentations of the gospel put on paper that have been produced in the last that have been produced in the last that have been produced in the last couple hundred years of church history, couple hundred years of church history, couple hundred years of church history, the most enduring gospel presentations the most enduring gospel presentations the most enduring gospel presentations I'm aware of are by far I'm aware of are by far I'm aware of are by far the Chronicles of Narnia the Chronicles of Narnia the Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings. and The Lord of the Rings. and The Lord of the Rings. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Both of which are works of art by people >> Both of which are works of art by people >> Both of which are works of art by people who have a deep respect for words who have a deep respect for words who have a deep respect for words and have gotten into the and have gotten into the and have gotten into the consciousness of so many people. consciousness of so many people. consciousness of so many people. And I think a recovery And I think a recovery And I think a recovery of artistry in the pastoral office of artistry in the pastoral office of artistry in the pastoral office is really, really important for the is really, really important for the is really, really important for the future voice of the church.

future voice of the church. future voice of the church. >> This episode is brought to you by The >> This episode is brought to you by The >> This episode is brought to you by The Art of Preaching. So, every preacher Art of Preaching. So, every preacher Art of Preaching. So, every preacher makes mistakes. I've done it. The makes mistakes. I've done it. The makes mistakes. I've done it. The toughest part, you always make them on toughest part, you always make them on toughest part, you always make them on Sunday morning in front of hundreds or Sunday morning in front of hundreds or Sunday morning in front of hundreds or thousands of people. You lose your train thousands of people. You lose your train thousands of people. You lose your train of thought mid-sermon, or you fumble for of thought mid-sermon, or you fumble for of thought mid-sermon, or you fumble for your notes, or you search for the line, your notes, or you search for the line, your notes, or you search for the line, you know, the one you got in the back of you know, the one you got in the back of you know, the one you got in the back of your head, and all you feel is every your head, and all you feel is every your head, and all you feel is every single eye staring back at you. Well, single eye staring back at you. Well, single eye staring back at you. Well, I get it. After 30 years of preaching, I get it. After 30 years of preaching, I get it. After 30 years of preaching, I've made pretty much every mistake in I've made pretty much every mistake in I've made pretty much every mistake in the book the book the book as a communicator, and I've done it as a communicator, and I've done it as a communicator, and I've done it sometimes way more than once. So, that's sometimes way more than once. So, that's sometimes way more than once. So, that's why I created The Art of Preaching. It's why I created The Art of Preaching. It's why I created The Art of Preaching. It's a step-by-step course that helps you a step-by-step course that helps you a step-by-step course that helps you break free from panic and preach with break free from panic and preach with break free from panic and preach with confidence. Instead of second-guessing confidence. Instead of second-guessing confidence. Instead of second-guessing yourself, you're going to know ahead of yourself, you're going to know ahead of yourself, you're going to know ahead of time your message is clear, memorable, time your message is clear, memorable, time your message is clear, memorable, and probably impactful. So, a lot of and probably impactful. So, a lot of and probably impactful. So, a lot of preaching resources give you preaching resources give you preaching resources give you inspiration, some give you a formula, inspiration, some give you a formula, inspiration, some give you a formula, but The Art of Preaching gives you the but The Art of Preaching gives you the but The Art of Preaching gives you the insight, strategies, and very specific insight, strategies, and very specific insight, strategies, and very specific practical tools to transform your skill practical tools to transform your skill practical tools to transform your skill set and develop your gifting, set and develop your gifting, set and develop your gifting, and you'll do it one step at a time. The and you'll do it one step at a time. The and you'll do it one step at a time. The course is open for enrollment now, so course is open for enrollment now, so course is open for enrollment now, so you can check it out at the art of you can check it out at the art of you can check it out at the art of preaching course.com or by clicking the preaching course.com or by clicking the preaching course.com or by clicking the link in the description of this episode.

link in the description of this episode. link in the description of this episode. Again, just click the link in the Again, just click the link in the Again, just click the link in the description to get instant access to the description to get instant access to the description to get instant access to the art of preaching. art of preaching. art of preaching. >> This is one of the reasons I wanted to >> This is one of the reasons I wanted to >> This is one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about it because you are in talk to you about it because you are in talk to you about it because you are in your 30s, not your 60s or 70s. This is your 30s, not your 60s or 70s. This is your 30s, not your 60s or 70s. This is not an old man saying next generation. not an old man saying next generation. not an old man saying next generation. This is a next generation leader This is a next generation leader This is a next generation leader embodying, I think, which I would agree embodying, I think, which I would agree embodying, I think, which I would agree with you is potentially a lost art. Love with you is potentially a lost art. Love with you is potentially a lost art. Love to go back. Were you the 6-year-old once to go back. Were you the 6-year-old once to go back. Were you the 6-year-old once you had the opportunity to read for you had the opportunity to read for you had the opportunity to read for yourself yourself yourself who was tucked away with a flashlight who was tucked away with a flashlight who was tucked away with a flashlight under the sheets at night reading books under the sheets at night reading books under the sheets at night reading books or, you know, tucked away on a back or, you know, tucked away on a back or, you know, tucked away on a back porch reading books or did this come up porch reading books or did this come up porch reading books or did this come up later in life? Like was that love of later in life? Like was that love of later in life? Like was that love of reading always part of who you were? reading always part of who you were? reading always part of who you were? >> No, not at all. >> No, not at all. >> No, not at all. >> Okay, that's good news. Okay. >> Okay, that's good news. Okay. >> Okay, that's good news. Okay. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] Yeah, when Yeah, when Yeah, when >> I started I started writing sermons. I >> I started I started writing sermons. I >> I started I started writing sermons. I started working with words. started working with words. started working with words. I I think what what I would say is I've I I think what what I would say is I've I I think what what I would say is I've always loved storytelling. always loved storytelling. always loved storytelling. I I've always I I've always I I've always been the kind of person that if you were been the kind of person that if you were been the kind of person that if you were like, "What's your dream evening?"

like, "What's your dream evening?" like, "What's your dream evening?" I would say I would say I would say sitting on a rooftop listening to people sitting on a rooftop listening to people sitting on a rooftop listening to people tell stories from their life. Like tell stories from their life. Like tell stories from their life. Like stories that move you, stories that make stories that move you, stories that make stories that move you, stories that make you crack up laughing. Just you crack up laughing. Just you crack up laughing. Just I think story is the most powerful force I think story is the most powerful force I think story is the most powerful force in the world. in the world. in the world. And I think And I think And I think this isn't so much about literature as this isn't so much about literature as this isn't so much about literature as it's about story. Like it's about film. it's about story. Like it's about film. it's about story. Like it's about film. It's about It's about It's about Whenever I work with teachers on our Whenever I work with teachers on our Whenever I work with teachers on our teaching team, I always talk to them teaching team, I always talk to them teaching team, I always talk to them about like, "You have to understand that about like, "You have to understand that about like, "You have to understand that preaching is a cinematic art." preaching is a cinematic art." preaching is a cinematic art." And so you need to know And so you need to know And so you need to know like a film director does like a film director does like a film director does what what am I doing What am I trying to what what am I doing What am I trying to what what am I doing What am I trying to do to the audience at this moment in the do to the audience at this moment in the do to the audience at this moment in the story? Have I crafted an emotional arc story? Have I crafted an emotional arc story? Have I crafted an emotional arc to what I'm teaching? to what I'm teaching? to what I'm teaching? And do I understand And do I understand And do I understand the way that I'm presenting each portion the way that I'm presenting each portion the way that I'm presenting each portion of the teaching of the teaching of the teaching as facilitating as facilitating as facilitating that emotional arc so that I'm landing that emotional arc so that I'm landing that emotional arc so that I'm landing in the way that I want to and I'm in the way that I want to and I'm in the way that I want to and I'm leading people on the journey that I'm leading people on the journey that I'm leading people on the journey that I'm trying to take them on so on and so trying to take them on so on and so trying to take them on so on and so forth. So, I think ultimately what I'm forth. So, I think ultimately what I'm forth. So, I think ultimately what I'm talking to you about is about story and talking to you about is about story and talking to you about is about story and Jesus seemed to have a great respect for Jesus seemed to have a great respect for Jesus seemed to have a great respect for story as his primary medium of teaching.

story as his primary medium of teaching. story as his primary medium of teaching. It is story is the way of communicating It is story is the way of communicating It is story is the way of communicating that is the most that is the most that is the most diverse in every way you can come up diverse in every way you can come up diverse in every way you can come up with diversity. with diversity. with diversity. Story is not exclusive to people based Story is not exclusive to people based Story is not exclusive to people based on intellect, education, background. on intellect, education, background. on intellect, education, background. There's never been a culture or people There's never been a culture or people There's never been a culture or people group discovered in the history of the group discovered in the history of the group discovered in the history of the world that did not tell stories. world that did not tell stories. world that did not tell stories. And every time you're losing someone and And every time you're losing someone and And every time you're losing someone and you just begin telling a narrative, you you just begin telling a narrative, you you just begin telling a narrative, you get them back. It just There's something get them back. It just There's something get them back. It just There's something in the human heart that wants to in the human heart that wants to in the human heart that wants to hear stories and tell stories. And all hear stories and tell stories. And all hear stories and tell stories. And all of us fundamentally of us fundamentally of us fundamentally find coherence in our lives by framing find coherence in our lives by framing find coherence in our lives by framing them within a plot, within a story. So, them within a plot, within a story. So, them within a plot, within a story. So, I think I've also been aware of that. I think I've also been aware of that. I think I've also been aware of that. I'm constantly I'm constantly I'm constantly I I don't know what to do with myself I I don't know what to do with myself I I don't know what to do with myself when the story when events come into my when the story when events come into my when the story when events come into my life that don't align with the story I life that don't align with the story I life that don't align with the story I thought I was living. thought I was living. thought I was living. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so, to understand my life within a >> And so, to understand my life within a >> And so, to understand my life within a holistic plot, holistic plot, holistic plot, it makes sense of the disparate events it makes sense of the disparate events it makes sense of the disparate events that are coming in, that are coming in, that are coming in, is fundamentally what it means to find is fundamentally what it means to find is fundamentally what it means to find meaning and I think to be a human being meaning and I think to be a human being meaning and I think to be a human being in many ways. Even, in many ways. Even, in many ways. Even, you know, the most staunch secular a or you know, the most staunch secular a or you know, the most staunch secular a or atheist has found a story that makes atheist has found a story that makes atheist has found a story that makes them feel them feel them feel at peace and understand the story of the at peace and understand the story of the at peace and understand the story of the the disparate events of their life. They the disparate events of their life. They the disparate events of their life. They found a narrative that makes them go, found a narrative that makes them go, found a narrative that makes them go, "Okay, I can understand who I am and "Okay, I can understand who I am and "Okay, I can understand who I am and these things that are happening to me these things that are happening to me these things that are happening to me because of this." So, I think preachers, because of this." So, I think preachers, because of this." So, I think preachers, teachers, pastors, communicators of teachers, pastors, communicators of teachers, pastors, communicators of every kind every kind every kind need to understand themselves as need to understand themselves as need to understand themselves as storytellers. And I would just say, find storytellers. And I would just say, find storytellers. And I would just say, find the medium of storytelling that most the medium of storytelling that most the medium of storytelling that most appeals to you and lean into it a little appeals to you and lean into it a little appeals to you and lean into it a little bit more. And then bit more. And then bit more. And then what happened to me is that medium just what happened to me is that medium just what happened to me is that medium just became more and more broad. But it became more and more broad. But it became more and more broad. But it started with like movies. I just loved started with like movies. I just loved started with like movies. I just loved watching movies.

watching movies. watching movies. >> not a reader so much. >> not a reader so much. >> not a reader so much. >> Exactly. Like I was >> Exactly. Like I was >> Exactly. Like I was I wanted to watch Free Willy over and I wanted to watch Free Willy over and I wanted to watch Free Willy over and over. over. over. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Not I wasn't reading Moby Dick. >> Not I wasn't reading Moby Dick. >> Not I wasn't reading Moby Dick. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But then over the course of time, I >> But then over the course of time, I >> But then over the course of time, I think I started to respect the artistry think I started to respect the artistry think I started to respect the artistry of story so much. of story so much. of story so much. And just discover, man, And just discover, man, And just discover, man, there's something that that a novel can there's something that that a novel can there's something that that a novel can do to me that a movie can't or do to me that a movie can't or do to me that a movie can't or television show because television show because television show because there's no other form of storytelling there's no other form of storytelling there's no other form of storytelling where where where you revisit the story so many on so many you revisit the story so many on so many you revisit the story so many on so many different occasions and you have to be different occasions and you have to be different occasions and you have to be entirely attentive. You cannot read a entirely attentive. You cannot read a entirely attentive. You cannot read a novel novel novel while sending a text. But almost while sending a text. But almost while sending a text. But almost everyone who watches a film these days everyone who watches a film these days everyone who watches a film these days or something is interacting with or something is interacting with or something is interacting with multiple screens while they're doing it. multiple screens while they're doing it. multiple screens while they're doing it. And that kind of thing. And so I think I And that kind of thing. And so I think I And that kind of thing. And so I think I just have started to respect the art of just have started to respect the art of just have started to respect the art of words on paper more and more words on paper more and more words on paper more and more because it's the best way for me to because it's the best way for me to because it's the best way for me to engage story where the thing the story engage story where the thing the story engage story where the thing the story is supposed to do to me, it can still do is supposed to do to me, it can still do is supposed to do to me, it can still do to me because everything is closed off to me because everything is closed off to me because everything is closed off and I can just get sucked into and live and I can just get sucked into and live and I can just get sucked into and live in a story.

in a story. in a story. >> So, when did the reading gene kind of >> So, when did the reading gene kind of >> So, when did the reading gene kind of kick in for you? How old were you? What kick in for you? How old were you? What kick in for you? How old were you? What was going on? And then how have you was going on? And then how have you was going on? And then how have you cultivated that? Particularly back to cultivated that? Particularly back to cultivated that? Particularly back to what we were talking about earlier in what we were talking about earlier in what we were talking about earlier in the in the give and take of ministry and the in the give and take of ministry and the in the give and take of ministry and the busyness and the hurry of life and the busyness and the hurry of life and the busyness and the hurry of life and you know, fathering three children, you know, fathering three children, you know, fathering three children, being married. being married. being married. How How How Tell us a little bit about Tell us a little bit about Tell us a little bit about that discipline and and the reason I that discipline and and the reason I that discipline and and the reason I think this is such an important think this is such an important think this is such an important question. I was reading even this question. I was reading even this question. I was reading even this morning morning morning uh an account of a teacher who probably uh an account of a teacher who probably uh an account of a teacher who probably is teaching Gen Alpha not Gen Z. They're is teaching Gen Alpha not Gen Z. They're is teaching Gen Alpha not Gen Z. They're almost all out of school now. And almost all out of school now. And almost all out of school now. And >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> she was saying she usually plays I think >> she was saying she usually plays I think >> she was saying she usually plays I think it was Hotel of Rwanda it was Hotel of Rwanda it was Hotel of Rwanda for her class and was commenting on the for her class and was commenting on the for her class and was commenting on the fact that kids today cannot focus for 2 fact that kids today cannot focus for 2 fact that kids today cannot focus for 2 and 1/2 hour and 1/2 hour and 1/2 hour movie. movie. movie. Their attention spans have been so Their attention spans have been so Their attention spans have been so jettisoned by short-form video. jettisoned by short-form video. jettisoned by short-form video. And you're right. We can we can condense And you're right. We can we can condense And you're right. We can we can condense a 600-page novel into a 2-hour film.

a 600-page novel into a 2-hour film. a 600-page novel into a 2-hour film. But I'm I'm curious for you how you've But I'm I'm curious for you how you've But I'm I'm curious for you how you've really really really uh like when that kicked in for you and uh like when that kicked in for you and uh like when that kicked in for you and how that's evolved over the years. Your how that's evolved over the years. Your how that's evolved over the years. Your your love of reading and words. >> For me it kicked in in early adulthood >> For me it kicked in in early adulthood because because because I began I began I began preaching preaching preaching vocationally because I I started in vocationally because I I started in vocationally because I I started in pastoral ministry and a couple things pastoral ministry and a couple things pastoral ministry and a couple things happened to me. One was happened to me. One was happened to me. One was my first 5 years in vocational ministry, my first 5 years in vocational ministry, my first 5 years in vocational ministry, I I I I founded and led a youth ministry among I founded and led a youth ministry among I founded and led a youth ministry among the low-income government housing the low-income government housing the low-income government housing projects in the Lower East Side of projects in the Lower East Side of projects in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Manhattan. Manhattan. And almost every kid in the youth And almost every kid in the youth And almost every kid in the youth ministry had never ministry had never ministry had never heard the stories on the pages of the heard the stories on the pages of the heard the stories on the pages of the Gospels before. Gospels before. Gospels before. So like I I have a vivid memory of So like I I have a vivid memory of So like I I have a vivid memory of teaching the feeding of the 5,000 teaching the feeding of the 5,000 teaching the feeding of the 5,000 and there being like an audible "No and there being like an audible "No and there being like an audible "No way!" when when the food multiply. And way!" when when the food multiply. And way!" when when the food multiply. And so I think I I was like, "Wow, this is a so I think I I was like, "Wow, this is a so I think I I was like, "Wow, this is a staggering privilege."

I'm going to get to craft many people's I'm going to get to craft many people's first impression of the image of God first impression of the image of God first impression of the image of God revealed through Jesus Christ. How do I do this in such a way that they How do I do this in such a way that they have the least amount to unlearn have the least amount to unlearn have the least amount to unlearn possible possible possible as they go on trying to know and as they go on trying to know and as they go on trying to know and follow Jesus, know know themselves? follow Jesus, know know themselves? follow Jesus, know know themselves? And that made me begin reading a lot And that made me begin reading a lot And that made me begin reading a lot more theology. And then I started more theology. And then I started more theology. And then I started hearing preachers that I wanted to sound hearing preachers that I wanted to sound hearing preachers that I wanted to sound like. like. like. Not because I thought they were cool, Not because I thought they were cool, Not because I thought they were cool, but because they were telling but because they were telling but because they were telling They were preaching the way of Jesus in They were preaching the way of Jesus in They were preaching the way of Jesus in a way that a way that a way that deeply resonated with me, deeply resonated with me, deeply resonated with me, moved me in my inner being. moved me in my inner being. moved me in my inner being. And and I just thought, "How do I do And and I just thought, "How do I do And and I just thought, "How do I do that? How do I And that? How do I And that? How do I And And I started reading the people they And I started reading the people they And I started reading the people they were reading. Um were reading. Um were reading. Um And then And then And then I think ultimately, so then I was just a I think ultimately, so then I was just a I think ultimately, so then I was just a guy reading a bunch of non-fiction guy reading a bunch of non-fiction guy reading a bunch of non-fiction theology. And then I started reading theology. And then I started reading theology. And then I started reading Eugene Peterson cuz I wanted to Eugene Peterson cuz I wanted to Eugene Peterson cuz I wanted to understand how to be a pastor. And understand how to be a pastor. And understand how to be a pastor. And Eugene Peterson is an artist.

Eugene Peterson is an artist. Eugene Peterson is an artist. >> Yeah, he is. >> Yeah, he is. >> Yeah, he is. >> And even if you read his work that isn't >> And even if you read his work that isn't >> And even if you read his work that isn't poetry and that kind of thing, poetry and that kind of thing, poetry and that kind of thing, man, he can write. man, he can write. man, he can write. And and he is probably the most broadly And and he is probably the most broadly And and he is probably the most broadly read and accessible pastor read and accessible pastor read and accessible pastor that took seriously the crafting of that took seriously the crafting of that took seriously the crafting of words. words. words. And I've listened to him preach and I And I've listened to him preach and I And I've listened to him preach and I would say Eugene Peterson's much better would say Eugene Peterson's much better would say Eugene Peterson's much better writer than preacher. writer than preacher. writer than preacher. >> He would say he was not a good preacher. >> He would say he was not a good preacher. >> He would say he was not a good preacher. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, he understands, but he understands >> Yeah, he understands, but he understands >> Yeah, he understands, but he understands what he's doing in taking you on a what he's doing in taking you on a what he's doing in taking you on a journey with words. journey with words. journey with words. And so I think Eugene Peterson had a And so I think Eugene Peterson had a And so I think Eugene Peterson had a massive influence on me. massive influence on me. massive influence on me. And And And there's so many moments from his life there's so many moments from his life there's so many moments from his life that are marked in my imagination, like that are marked in my imagination, like that are marked in my imagination, like >> Like what? >> They just they're in Wen Collings' >> They just they're in Wen Collings' biography of him where he's burning biography of him where he's burning biography of him where he's burning letters. letters. letters. >> Great biography. Yeah. >> Great biography. Yeah. >> Great biography. Yeah. >> It opens It opens with >> It opens It opens with >> It opens It opens with him on this prayer rug in his basement him on this prayer rug in his basement him on this prayer rug in his basement office office office and his son and his son and his son his adult son having this vivid memory his adult son having this vivid memory his adult son having this vivid memory of listening to him praying there.

of listening to him praying there. of listening to him praying there. And I just thought I've had a lot of And I just thought I've had a lot of And I just thought I've had a lot of thoughts like that, like what do I want my son to remember about what do I want my son to remember about me? What do I want my children me? What do I want my children me? What do I want my children to remember was true about who I was? to remember was true about who I was? to remember was true about who I was? Because they're going to have a dad who Because they're going to have a dad who Because they're going to have a dad who is a preacher is a preacher is a preacher and I had a dad who sold cars. and I had a dad who sold cars. and I had a dad who sold cars. And so my And so my And so my my introduction to Jesus was not my introduction to Jesus was not my introduction to Jesus was not complicated by my dad's vocation. It was complicated by my dad's vocation. It was complicated by my dad's vocation. It was neutral to it. neutral to it. neutral to it. And and I started to think about that a And and I started to think about that a And and I started to think about that a lot. Think what do I want them to lot. Think what do I want them to lot. Think what do I want them to remember is true about me? remember is true about me? remember is true about me? And I thought I want them to remember And I thought I want them to remember And I thought I want them to remember that I prayed and I really believed what that I prayed and I really believed what that I prayed and I really believed what I said and I stayed close to the poor. I said and I stayed close to the poor. I said and I stayed close to the poor. And so how do I raise my kids in a way And so how do I raise my kids in a way And so how do I raise my kids in a way that would leave that lasting impression that would leave that lasting impression that would leave that lasting impression within them? And then there's another story there's another story uh from Eugene's life uh from Eugene's life uh from Eugene's life where he goes on a hike with his adult where he goes on a hike with his adult where he goes on a hike with his adult son and he reads a letter to him.

son and he reads a letter to him. son and he reads a letter to him. From This is also from Wen Collings' From This is also from Wen Collings' From This is also from Wen Collings' biography from biography from biography from uh that he wrote with his therapist uh that he wrote with his therapist uh that he wrote with his therapist where he basically told him like, "You where he basically told him like, "You where he basically told him like, "You were always there objectively, but I were always there objectively, but I were always there objectively, but I felt like your imagination was more with felt like your imagination was more with felt like your imagination was more with the church than it belonged with me." the church than it belonged with me." the church than it belonged with me." And I just I remember weeping when I And I just I remember weeping when I And I just I remember weeping when I read that. read that. read that. And thinking how do I give my imagination like that? You can't give my imagination like that? You can't fool the people that you love the most. fool the people that you love the most. fool the people that you love the most. So So So So how do I So how do I So how do I steward my life in such a way that would steward my life in such a way that would steward my life in such a way that would do that? And then do that? And then do that? And then in between those two things, in between those two things, in between those two things, when Eugene would tell the story when Eugene would tell the story when Eugene would tell the story of his church, of his church, of his church, when he would explain theology, when he would explain theology, when he would explain theology, he would tell these down-to-earth he would tell these down-to-earth he would tell these down-to-earth stories that sounded a lot like Jesus, stories that sounded a lot like Jesus, stories that sounded a lot like Jesus, and they sounded a lot like and they sounded a lot like and they sounded a lot like the like old country stories that my dad the like old country stories that my dad the like old country stories that my dad would tell growing up, who he was such a would tell growing up, who he was such a would tell growing up, who he was such a gifted storyteller and could hold a gifted storyteller and could hold a gifted storyteller and could hold a room, but he was like that classic room, but he was like that classic room, but he was like that classic you know, he grew up on a tobacco farm you know, he grew up on a tobacco farm you know, he grew up on a tobacco farm in Kentucky, and he's that classic like in Kentucky, and he's that classic like in Kentucky, and he's that classic like southern southern southern you know, get up and act out parts of you know, get up and act out parts of you know, get up and act out parts of the story and that kind of thing, and the story and that kind of thing, and the story and that kind of thing, and yeah, Eugene would do that. He would yeah, Eugene would do that. He would yeah, Eugene would do that. He would talk about some guy who owned a bait and talk about some guy who owned a bait and talk about some guy who owned a bait and tackle shop in a small Montana town, and tackle shop in a small Montana town, and tackle shop in a small Montana town, and then somehow he would

then somehow he would then somehow he would pull you into that guy's story and pull you into that guy's story and pull you into that guy's story and reveal the beauty of the kingdom reveal the beauty of the kingdom reveal the beauty of the kingdom spilling out of the bait and tackle shop spilling out of the bait and tackle shop spilling out of the bait and tackle shop and let you see how that actually and let you see how that actually and let you see how that actually illuminates the letter of 1 Corinthians illuminates the letter of 1 Corinthians illuminates the letter of 1 Corinthians or or or And I just thought, this is so deep. And I just thought, this is so deep. And I just thought, this is so deep. It's so theologically deep, and yet it It's so theologically deep, and yet it It's so theologically deep, and yet it is entirely accessible. is entirely accessible. is entirely accessible. I want to understand how to use words I want to understand how to use words I want to understand how to use words this way. this way. this way. And And And I started discovering like, oh, Eugene I started discovering like, oh, Eugene I started discovering like, oh, Eugene read poetry. Eugene read fiction. read poetry. Eugene read fiction. read poetry. Eugene read fiction. Uh Uh Uh He spent a a large period of his He spent a a large period of his He spent a a large period of his pastoral life reading Dostoevsky in the pastoral life reading Dostoevsky in the pastoral life reading Dostoevsky in the afternoons. afternoons. afternoons. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That kind of thing. And I just thought, >> That kind of thing. And I just thought, >> That kind of thing. And I just thought, I want to cultivate these habits that I want to cultivate these habits that I want to cultivate these habits that allow me to become this type of allow me to become this type of allow me to become this type of communicator, and I don't know that I communicator, and I don't know that I communicator, and I don't know that I am. However, am. However, am. However, I have I've grown to love I have I've grown to love I have I've grown to love uh uh uh literature through that introduction. literature through that introduction. literature through that introduction. >> Who are some other voices that have been >> Who are some other voices that have been >> Who are some other voices that have been very formative for you? Because I very formative for you? Because I very formative for you? Because I imagine there are people listening now imagine there are people listening now imagine there are people listening now who are like, "Okay, Peterson, putting who are like, "Okay, Peterson, putting who are like, "Okay, Peterson, putting him on my list. Going to read some."

him on my list. Going to read some." him on my list. Going to read some." Who are some other voices that have Who are some other voices that have Who are some other voices that have really helped? That could be preachers really helped? That could be preachers really helped? That could be preachers or writers who have really helped you or writers who have really helped you or writers who have really helped you find your own voice. find your own voice. find your own voice. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Without a doubt, John Tyson, who was the Without a doubt, John Tyson, who was the Without a doubt, John Tyson, who was the first pastor that I worked for. first pastor that I worked for. first pastor that I worked for. Um and he John served as my youth pastor Um and he John served as my youth pastor Um and he John served as my youth pastor when I was in middle school. when I was in middle school. when I was in middle school. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And he you know, 10 years or 10 He's 10 >> And he you know, 10 years or 10 He's 10 >> And he you know, 10 years or 10 He's 10 years older than me, and that's a years older than me, and that's a years older than me, and that's a eternity eternity eternity when you're 11 and 21. when you're 11 and 21. when you're 11 and 21. >> He sure is. >> He sure is. >> He sure is. >> he gets smaller, so we relate to one >> he gets smaller, so we relate to one >> he gets smaller, so we relate to one another as peers now, but another as peers now, but another as peers now, but man, he's He is a bre- a breathtaking man, he's He is a bre- a breathtaking man, he's He is a bre- a breathtaking preacher. preacher. preacher. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And can preach an hour and 10 minute sermon, can preach an hour and 10 minute sermon, can preach an hour and 10 minute sermon, and there's never a moment that you're and there's never a moment that you're and there's never a moment that you're going, "I wonder how much longer he's going, "I wonder how much longer he's going, "I wonder how much longer he's going to go on." going to go on." going to go on." And so I think And so I think And so I think uh he shaped me deeply in my uh he shaped me deeply in my uh he shaped me deeply in my understanding of the emotional arc of understanding of the emotional arc of understanding of the emotional arc of teaching.

teaching. teaching. Um Um Um certainly I've been deeply shaped by the certainly I've been deeply shaped by the certainly I've been deeply shaped by the writing of Henri Nouwen. writing of Henri Nouwen. writing of Henri Nouwen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um particularly the number one challenge >> Um particularly the number one challenge >> Um particularly the number one challenge for me as a teacher at the moment is I'm for me as a teacher at the moment is I'm for me as a teacher at the moment is I'm thinking, "How do I thinking, "How do I thinking, "How do I how do I get shorter?" how do I get shorter?" how do I get shorter?" I have a suspicion I have a suspicion I have a suspicion that that that you know, I know that Nouwen would work you know, I know that Nouwen would work you know, I know that Nouwen would work on his books until he got them as short on his books until he got them as short on his books until he got them as short as he possibly could. as he possibly could. as he possibly could. But also I have this suspicion that But also I have this suspicion that But also I have this suspicion that those steeped in the Catholic tradition those steeped in the Catholic tradition those steeped in the Catholic tradition have cultivated the art of saying have cultivated the art of saying have cultivated the art of saying something profound very concisely something profound very concisely something profound very concisely because of the writing of homilies because of the writing of homilies because of the writing of homilies >> Yes. long-form sermons, which is >> Yes. long-form sermons, which is >> Yes. long-form sermons, which is uh I I actually don't have a preference uh I I actually don't have a preference uh I I actually don't have a preference for one or the other. I think they're for one or the other. I think they're for one or the other. I think they're both beautiful forms. both beautiful forms. both beautiful forms. But, uh But, uh But, uh Henry Nouwen, I think, is someone else Henry Nouwen, I think, is someone else Henry Nouwen, I think, is someone else who's able to write deeply about the who's able to write deeply about the who's able to write deeply about the spiritual life. spiritual life. spiritual life. Ronald Rolheiser's writing. Ronald Rolheiser's writing. Ronald Rolheiser's writing. Uh Uh Uh such depth and tons of storytelling, such depth and tons of storytelling, such depth and tons of storytelling, lots of reference to personal stories lots of reference to personal stories lots of reference to personal stories and old rabbinical tales from the desert and old rabbinical tales from the desert and old rabbinical tales from the desert fathers and mothers and so forth. So, fathers and mothers and so forth. So, fathers and mothers and so forth. So, I I guess those are a few others to I I guess those are a few others to I I guess those are a few others to mention briefly.

mention briefly. mention briefly. >> Great place to start. Uh my wife, Tony, >> Great place to start. Uh my wife, Tony, >> Great place to start. Uh my wife, Tony, we've been married 36 years. we've been married 36 years. we've been married 36 years. She has uh in the Working Genius, she's She has uh in the Working Genius, she's She has uh in the Working Genius, she's pretty high on wonder, which I am not on pretty high on wonder, which I am not on pretty high on wonder, which I am not on all of my analysis. She loves poetry, all of my analysis. She loves poetry, all of my analysis. She loves poetry, writes it, reads it. Um I appreciate it writes it, reads it. Um I appreciate it writes it, reads it. Um I appreciate it as song. I think I'm more attracted to as song. I think I'm more attracted to as song. I think I'm more attracted to poetry in song than anything. I'm I'm poetry in song than anything. I'm I'm poetry in song than anything. I'm I'm like I'm always checking the lyrics on like I'm always checking the lyrics on like I'm always checking the lyrics on what I'm listening to and find it really what I'm listening to and find it really what I'm listening to and find it really interesting. interesting. interesting. Um Um Um poetry, how has that shaped poetry, how has that shaped poetry, how has that shaped your voice as a preacher and a writer? your voice as a preacher and a writer? your voice as a preacher and a writer? >> It's It's interesting you mentioned song >> It's It's interesting you mentioned song >> It's It's interesting you mentioned song lyrics. I I will say too, in addition to lyrics. I I will say too, in addition to lyrics. I I will say too, in addition to film, I was that kid film, I was that kid film, I was that kid in high school who was so moved by song in high school who was so moved by song in high school who was so moved by song lyrics. And I was lyrics. And I was lyrics. And I was >> Oh, me, too. I just sit there and read >> Oh, me, too. I just sit there and read >> Oh, me, too. I just sit there and read the when the era of LPs, I could spend the when the era of LPs, I could spend the when the era of LPs, I could spend an afternoon with an album cover, read an afternoon with an album cover, read an afternoon with an album cover, read all the credits, all the lyrics, listen all the credits, all the lyrics, listen all the credits, all the lyrics, listen to it on the dust jacket. Like, I love to it on the dust jacket. Like, I love to it on the dust jacket. Like, I love that stuff.

that stuff. that stuff. >> You know, I I would say, like, you got >> You know, I I would say, like, you got >> You know, I I would say, like, you got to listen to this line. Listen, it's a to listen to this line. Listen, it's a to listen to this line. Listen, it's a devastating line. devastating line. devastating line. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> in this one song, you know? And I would >> in this one song, you know? And I would >> in this one song, you know? And I would I think I would see the way that I think I would see the way that I think I would see the way that something would build up to this like something would build up to this like something would build up to this like whether it was beautiful whether it was beautiful whether it was beautiful or just tragic or or just tragic or or just tragic or and see that you can arrange words in and see that you can arrange words in and see that you can arrange words in such a way to just deliver a blow. such a way to just deliver a blow. such a way to just deliver a blow. Um Um Um uh uh uh I began to read poetry because I I wanted to learn to see like because I I wanted to learn to see like a poet. Hm. I started to suspect a poet. Hm. I started to suspect a poet. Hm. I started to suspect that that that so much of what it meant to live a life so much of what it meant to live a life so much of what it meant to live a life of prayer, which is my greatest desire. of prayer, which is my greatest desire. of prayer, which is my greatest desire. I want to I want to I want to I want to live a life of prayer. I want I want to live a life of prayer. I want I want to live a life of prayer. I want prayer to be the center that my whole prayer to be the center that my whole prayer to be the center that my whole life orbits around. I want my time to be life orbits around. I want my time to be life orbits around. I want my time to be ordered by prayer. I want my seeing to ordered by prayer. I want my seeing to ordered by prayer. I want my seeing to be be be saturated in prayer, my hearing, my saturated in prayer, my hearing, my saturated in prayer, my hearing, my speaking.

speaking. speaking. Um and so Um and so Um and so I think I started to realize you know, a I think I started to realize you know, a I think I started to realize you know, a poet is basically someone poet is basically someone poet is basically someone who who who sees a sees a sees a a little boy feeding ducks when they're a little boy feeding ducks when they're a little boy feeding ducks when they're walking through the park walking through the park walking through the park and somehow sees and somehow sees and somehow sees like the charity of Mother Teresa like the charity of Mother Teresa like the charity of Mother Teresa in the act in the act in the act and is awakened to hope for the whole and is awakened to hope for the whole and is awakened to hope for the whole world. world. world. And you know, a poet is someone who's And you know, a poet is someone who's And you know, a poet is someone who's walking around walking around walking around God's creation God's creation God's creation glimpsing what is visible if you see glimpsing what is visible if you see glimpsing what is visible if you see through through through creation creation creation like an icon in Christian history, where like an icon in Christian history, where like an icon in Christian history, where it's a window through which I'm it's a window through which I'm it's a window through which I'm glimpsing the kingdom of God. And not glimpsing the kingdom of God. And not glimpsing the kingdom of God. And not every poet every poet every poet is Christian or explicitly trying to is Christian or explicitly trying to is Christian or explicitly trying to write write write to help someone see the kingdom of God. to help someone see the kingdom of God. to help someone see the kingdom of God. And yet every poet is trying to help And yet every poet is trying to help And yet every poet is trying to help someone see the depth someone see the depth someone see the depth of their life.

of their life. of their life. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> To feel the weight of how much their >> To feel the weight of how much their >> To feel the weight of how much their life matters. life matters. life matters. And their days matter. And their days matter. And their days matter. And And And and I just I started I had this one and I just I started I had this one and I just I started I had this one simple realization, Carrie, which is simple realization, Carrie, which is simple realization, Carrie, which is this. I'm constantly trying to plan my life. I'm constantly trying to plan my life. Like to scheme a series of events Like to scheme a series of events Like to scheme a series of events that are joyful. that are joyful. that are joyful. Like I plan on vacations or play you Like I plan on vacations or play you Like I plan on vacations or play you know, like I'm I'm know, like I'm I'm know, like I'm I'm and nights out, things like that, and nights out, things like that, and nights out, things like that, because I want to enjoy my life. because I want to enjoy my life. because I want to enjoy my life. And yet, if you on any given year said, And yet, if you on any given year said, And yet, if you on any given year said, "Tyler, I want you to list your top 10 "Tyler, I want you to list your top 10 "Tyler, I want you to list your top 10 moments of the year." moments of the year." moments of the year." When were you most alive? When were you most alive? When were you most alive? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> None [clears throat] of them were >> None [clears throat] of them were >> None [clears throat] of them were moments I planned and executed according moments I planned and executed according moments I planned and executed according to my plan. to my plan. to my plan. >> That's really interesting. >> That's really interesting. >> That's really interesting. >> moments that happened to me. >> moments that happened to me. >> moments that happened to me. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> I I >> I I >> I I Less than 48 hours before we're filming Less than 48 hours before we're filming Less than 48 hours before we're filming this, this, this, I returned from a trip to Seattle with I returned from a trip to Seattle with I returned from a trip to Seattle with my three boys and two my three boys and two my three boys and two uh of their friends. So, I had five kids uh of their friends. So, I had five kids uh of their friends. So, I had five kids under 10, all boys, in Seattle to go to under 10, all boys, in Seattle to go to under 10, all boys, in Seattle to go to a Mariners game. It's day two nights.

a Mariners game. It's day two nights. a Mariners game. It's day two nights. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> And >> And >> And I planned it meticulously. I planned it meticulously. I planned it meticulously. We went to an arcade. We went to an arcade. We went to an arcade. We got to go on the field and watch We got to go on the field and watch We got to go on the field and watch batting practice. We bought dinner at batting practice. We bought dinner at batting practice. We bought dinner at the concession stand. the concession stand. the concession stand. We We just did so many fun things. We We We just did so many fun things. We We We just did so many fun things. We went to Topgolf. went to Topgolf. went to Topgolf. Like I just made it just Like I just made it just Like I just made it just it was a smorgasbord of fun. it was a smorgasbord of fun. it was a smorgasbord of fun. And if you said, "What was the best And if you said, "What was the best And if you said, "What was the best moment of the trip?" I'll say, "Without moment of the trip?" I'll say, "Without moment of the trip?" I'll say, "Without a doubt, a doubt, a doubt, it was in the middle of the night on the it was in the middle of the night on the it was in the middle of the night on the last night, because I shared a bed with last night, because I shared a bed with last night, because I shared a bed with my 4-year-old. my 4-year-old. my 4-year-old. And I woke up in the night, because he And I woke up in the night, because he And I woke up in the night, because he started holding my hand in his sleep. started holding my hand in his sleep. started holding my hand in his sleep. And I just laid there for a minute. And I just laid there for a minute. And I just laid there for a minute. I was like, my little boy is holding my I was like, my little boy is holding my I was like, my little boy is holding my hand in his sleep. hand in his sleep. hand in his sleep. And that was And that was And that was >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> it. And so then I just started realizing >> it. And so then I just started realizing >> it. And so then I just started realizing things like that like, wow, things like that like, wow, things like that like, wow, joy can happen to you joy can happen to you joy can happen to you if you're just attentive to the life if you're just attentive to the life if you're just attentive to the life that you're living.

that you're living. that you're living. And poets seem to be the most attentive And poets seem to be the most attentive And poets seem to be the most attentive people, like the most attentive artists people, like the most attentive artists people, like the most attentive artists in the world. So, I want to start in the world. So, I want to start in the world. So, I want to start reading poetry and I just started with reading poetry and I just started with reading poetry and I just started with Mary Oliver. Her poetry is so accessible Mary Oliver. Her poetry is so accessible Mary Oliver. Her poetry is so accessible and simple. and simple. and simple. Um and yet so deep and profound. And Um and yet so deep and profound. And Um and yet so deep and profound. And then I started reading Wendell Berry then I started reading Wendell Berry then I started reading Wendell Berry and uh his collection of Sabbath poems. and uh his collection of Sabbath poems. and uh his collection of Sabbath poems. And then I really started reading poetry And then I really started reading poetry And then I really started reading poetry when I went through cancer when I went through cancer when I went through cancer because it helped me I couldn't comprehend much. My brain was I couldn't comprehend much. My brain was so foggy, but I could slowly read one so foggy, but I could slowly read one so foggy, but I could slowly read one poem poem poem and see beauty in God's world in a very and see beauty in God's world in a very and see beauty in God's world in a very dark window of my life. dark window of my life. dark window of my life. Um and [clears throat] be reminded of Um and [clears throat] be reminded of Um and [clears throat] be reminded of what matters most deeply for me today. what matters most deeply for me today. what matters most deeply for me today. It gave me the will to live It gave me the will to live It gave me the will to live in the morning and gave me in the morning and gave me in the morning and gave me the joy to savor the blessings of even the joy to savor the blessings of even the joy to savor the blessings of even very difficult days in the evening. very difficult days in the evening. very difficult days in the evening. And I just I started reading a poem And I just I started reading a poem And I just I started reading a poem every night before bed and I just prayed every night before bed and I just prayed every night before bed and I just prayed one simple prayer after the poem. I one simple prayer after the poem. I one simple prayer after the poem. I would just say, God, will you please would just say, God, will you please would just say, God, will you please teach me to see teach me to see teach me to see and then live in your world like a poet.

and then live in your world like a poet. and then live in your world like a poet. And that's how I got into poetry. And that's how I got into poetry. And that's how I got into poetry. >> So, inputs. Those are some fascinating >> So, inputs. Those are some fascinating >> So, inputs. Those are some fascinating inputs, but some of that is also knowing inputs, but some of that is also knowing inputs, but some of that is also knowing what to tune out. You know, when you what to tune out. You know, when you what to tune out. You know, when you talk about the psalmist, talk about the psalmist, talk about the psalmist, I've read through the scripture now I've read through the scripture now I've read through the scripture now every year and so that means I read every year and so that means I read every year and so that means I read through the Psalms generally twice a through the Psalms generally twice a through the Psalms generally twice a year. year. year. And this time around, what's really And this time around, what's really And this time around, what's really hitting me hitting me hitting me is like David who wrote a lot of the is like David who wrote a lot of the is like David who wrote a lot of the poems. If you think about how he spent poems. If you think about how he spent poems. If you think about how he spent his day his day his day as a shepherd, as a shepherd, as a shepherd, there's just so much time in the field. there's just so much time in the field. there's just so much time in the field. I assume the sheep were not being I assume the sheep were not being I assume the sheep were not being disruptive 24 hours a day. That disruptive 24 hours a day. That disruptive 24 hours a day. That sometimes they are lying down by green sometimes they are lying down by green sometimes they are lying down by green pastures. pastures. pastures. There's no phone, there's no scrolling, There's no phone, there's no scrolling, There's no phone, there's no scrolling, there's no media. there's no media. there's no media. There's no light pollution at night. There's no light pollution at night. There's no light pollution at night. Um there's just sunshine and clouds and Um there's just sunshine and clouds and Um there's just sunshine and clouds and rain and grass and rocks and rain and grass and rocks and rain and grass and rocks and so much time to ponder and think and so much time to ponder and think and so much time to ponder and think and contemplate and contemplate and contemplate and to mull over to mull over to mull over the stories that he grew up with and to the stories that he grew up with and to the stories that he grew up with and to think about life.

think about life. think about life. And, you know, I couple summers ago I And, you know, I couple summers ago I And, you know, I couple summers ago I read uh Thoreau's Walden Pond and how he read uh Thoreau's Walden Pond and how he read uh Thoreau's Walden Pond and how he kind of retreated from his little town. kind of retreated from his little town. kind of retreated from his little town. I think it was Connecticut. Somebody I think it was Connecticut. Somebody I think it was Connecticut. Somebody will correct me in the comments. will correct me in the comments. will correct me in the comments. Um to go into the woods, which was just Um to go into the woods, which was just Um to go into the woods, which was just a mile away, but he wanted a a mile away, but he wanted a a mile away, but he wanted a a quiet repose. a quiet repose. a quiet repose. And And And that's so different from our life today that's so different from our life today that's so different from our life today where we can be where we can be where we can be endlessly multitasking, amused, etc. endlessly multitasking, amused, etc. endlessly multitasking, amused, etc. And so I want to spend more time And so I want to spend more time And so I want to spend more time offline, more time reflecting, more time offline, more time reflecting, more time offline, more time reflecting, more time sitting, thinking. sitting, thinking. sitting, thinking. What does that look like for you as What does that look like for you as What does that look like for you as you're developing your voice? Because you're developing your voice? Because you're developing your voice? Because obviously reading a novel takes time. obviously reading a novel takes time. obviously reading a novel takes time. Reading poetry every night takes time. Reading poetry every night takes time. Reading poetry every night takes time. What are you doing to tune out the sort What are you doing to tune out the sort What are you doing to tune out the sort of constant clatter of our current of constant clatter of our current of constant clatter of our current moment in culture? moment in culture? moment in culture? >> Man, I'm so glad you asked that. I'm >> Man, I'm so glad you asked that. I'm >> Man, I'm so glad you asked that. I'm sorry I've been so long-winded in my sorry I've been so long-winded in my sorry I've been so long-winded in my responses. responses. responses. >> Oh, no. I'm drinking from a fire hose. >> Oh, no. I'm drinking from a fire hose. >> Oh, no. I'm drinking from a fire hose. It's great. It's great. It's great. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I think I think I would say I'm very, very careful.

I'm very, very careful. I I mean, this has to be different for I I mean, this has to be different for I I mean, this has to be different for anybody. of the great privileges I have anybody. of the great privileges I have anybody. of the great privileges I have in my life that I'm aware of in my life that I'm aware of in my life that I'm aware of is is is I can choose I can choose I can choose when to engage and disengage when to engage and disengage when to engage and disengage the notifications on my device. I have a the notifications on my device. I have a the notifications on my device. I have a lot of autonomy over my time. And I do lot of autonomy over my time. And I do lot of autonomy over my time. And I do hold a fundamental belief hold a fundamental belief hold a fundamental belief that the greatest gift that the greatest gift that the greatest gift I've been given and maybe anyone's been I've been given and maybe anyone's been I've been given and maybe anyone's been given given given but the greatest gift I've been given to but the greatest gift I've been given to but the greatest gift I've been given to steward on behalf of God and His kingdom steward on behalf of God and His kingdom steward on behalf of God and His kingdom is my imagination. is my imagination. is my imagination. And so And so And so I need to I need to I need to treat my imagination treat my imagination treat my imagination like it is a resource like it is a resource like it is a resource for bringing the kingdom of heaven to for bringing the kingdom of heaven to for bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth. earth. earth. And it belongs to God. And it belongs to God. And it belongs to God. And so I would say I'm very careful And so I would say I'm very careful And so I would say I'm very careful to to to My mind starts moving real fast when I My mind starts moving real fast when I My mind starts moving real fast when I get in involved in the tasks of my day get in involved in the tasks of my day get in involved in the tasks of my day and my plans.

and my plans. and my plans. Or Or Or the things going on in the world or the things going on in the world or the things going on in the world or anything like that. So I'm very careful anything like that. So I'm very careful anything like that. So I'm very careful to interact first with what is most to interact first with what is most to interact first with what is most eternal. eternal. eternal. Um Um Um and then I'm very careful to do my and then I'm very careful to do my and then I'm very careful to do my creative work before I've let anything creative work before I've let anything creative work before I've let anything else in. else in. else in. Um each day. Um each day. Um each day. And I'm very careful to put my phone And I'm very careful to put my phone And I'm very careful to put my phone away. away. away. So I send my final notifications, I put So I send my final notifications, I put So I send my final notifications, I put my phone away until my kids are in bed. my phone away until my kids are in bed. my phone away until my kids are in bed. I check it one more time before I go to I check it one more time before I go to I check it one more time before I go to bed. And so I I think I'm just very bed. And so I I think I'm just very bed. And so I I think I'm just very careful about the first and last careful about the first and last careful about the first and last thoughts enter my mind each day, where thoughts enter my mind each day, where thoughts enter my mind each day, where my attention gets directed and when and my attention gets directed and when and my attention gets directed and when and everything like that. everything like that. everything like that. Um so for me a lot of it centers on Um so for me a lot of it centers on Um so for me a lot of it centers on phone notifications. phone notifications. phone notifications. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And when I let what in because it's and >> And when I let what in because it's and >> And when I let what in because it's and it's not always like negative anxiety. it's not always like negative anxiety. it's not always like negative anxiety. Like, oh no, if I see the headlines Like, oh no, if I see the headlines Like, oh no, if I see the headlines regarding the current state of the US regarding the current state of the US regarding the current state of the US economy or global politics or whatever, economy or global politics or whatever, economy or global politics or whatever, then it's going to mess with me.

then it's going to mess with me. then it's going to mess with me. For me, it's more like, oh if I see my For me, it's more like, oh if I see my For me, it's more like, oh if I see my like my email, my notification, my like my email, my notification, my like my email, my notification, my whatever, it all speaks to my ego. I get whatever, it all speaks to my ego. I get whatever, it all speaks to my ego. I get excited about ideas, opportunities, excited about ideas, opportunities, excited about ideas, opportunities, whatever it may be. whatever it may be. whatever it may be. And And And first I want to entrust my imagination first I want to entrust my imagination first I want to entrust my imagination to God. to God. to God. >> So, number of hours offline. Keep going. >> So, number of hours offline. Keep going. >> So, number of hours offline. Keep going. >> A number of hours offline. >> A number of hours offline. >> A number of hours offline. And as I noticed I noticed my paternal grandmother. I noticed my paternal grandmother. Her name's Evelyn. Her name's Evelyn. Her name's Evelyn. And she's lived in 20 square miles her And she's lived in 20 square miles her And she's lived in 20 square miles her entire life. She's in her 90s. entire life. She's in her 90s. entire life. She's in her 90s. And she And she And she has grown her own food and jarred it and has grown her own food and jarred it and has grown her own food and jarred it and it's all in her basement it's all in her basement it's all in her basement for my entire life and my father's for my entire life and my father's for my entire life and my father's entire life. entire life. entire life. And I started I've just thought a lot And I started I've just thought a lot And I started I've just thought a lot about her. about her. about her. Because Because Because I've gotten to be I've gotten to be I've gotten to be I've set I've set I've set Actually, Actually, Actually, I've preached I've preached I've preached I believe in six continents. I've I believe in six continents. I've I believe in six continents. I've traveled to six different continents and traveled to six different continents and traveled to six different continents and in different countries. I've gotten to in different countries. I've gotten to in different countries. I've gotten to I've gotten to travel the world. I've I've gotten to travel the world. I've I've gotten to travel the world. I've been in so many different places. I've been in so many different places. I've been in so many different places. I've met so many different kinds of people.

met so many different kinds of people. met so many different kinds of people. And I think that And I think that And I think that like objectively like objectively like objectively people would often say like people would often say like people would often say like that makes me cultured that makes me cultured that makes me cultured and hopefully deep and hopefully deep and hopefully deep and her simple. and her simple. and her simple. And I would say, maybe. And I would say, maybe. And I would say, maybe. But But But her hands have dug in the dirt in this her hands have dug in the dirt in this her hands have dug in the dirt in this one patch of grass one patch of grass one patch of grass for far longer than I've been alive. for far longer than I've been alive. for far longer than I've been alive. And I think the only books I've And I think the only books I've And I think the only books I've the only books I've ever seen her read the only books I've ever seen her read the only books I've ever seen her read are the ones I've written. are the ones I've written. are the ones I've written. And that's because she loves me. And that's because she loves me. And that's because she loves me. I have no idea I have no idea I have no idea if she enjoys them or really or if she enjoys them or really or if she enjoys them or really or understands them. understands them. understands them. But I know that she understands things But I know that she understands things But I know that she understands things about God and his creation that I don't. about God and his creation that I don't. about God and his creation that I don't. I know that she has read I know that she has read I know that she has read and grown deeply cultured and grown deeply cultured and grown deeply cultured through burying your hands in the dirt through burying your hands in the dirt through burying your hands in the dirt and working with seed and working with seed and working with seed in ways that I never have.

in ways that I never have. in ways that I never have. And And And I think I have a natural deep I think I have a natural deep I think I have a natural deep deep respect for that and a holy deep respect for that and a holy deep respect for that and a holy jealousy jealousy jealousy that I would know about Jesus what she that I would know about Jesus what she that I would know about Jesus what she knows about Jesus. knows about Jesus. knows about Jesus. And that means that I have to take on And that means that I have to take on And that means that I have to take on habits not only that bring great inputs habits not only that bring great inputs habits not only that bring great inputs into my life, but slow me down. So I into my life, but slow me down. So I into my life, but slow me down. So I spent a year trying to grow spent a year trying to grow spent a year trying to grow vegetables very poorly on a little vegetables very poorly on a little vegetables very poorly on a little mulch patch on the side of my yard. And mulch patch on the side of my yard. And mulch patch on the side of my yard. And I just viewed it as a spiritual practice I just viewed it as a spiritual practice I just viewed it as a spiritual practice to be watering these things and caring to be watering these things and caring to be watering these things and caring for them every day. Just I think in for them every day. Just I think in for them every day. Just I think in different ways I'm also and I'm not like different ways I'm also and I'm not like different ways I'm also and I'm not like a Luddite. I'm not just trying to do a Luddite. I'm not just trying to do a Luddite. I'm not just trying to do old-fashioned kind of things, but I old-fashioned kind of things, but I old-fashioned kind of things, but I think there's wisdom in every closer think there's wisdom in every closer think there's wisdom in every closer monastic tradition in Christian history monastic tradition in Christian history monastic tradition in Christian history that involves working with the soil and that involves working with the soil and that involves working with the soil and the earth and creation. Jesus's favorite the earth and creation. Jesus's favorite the earth and creation. Jesus's favorite metaphors are all agricultural metaphors are all agricultural metaphors are all agricultural metaphors. So I think in other ways metaphors. So I think in other ways metaphors. So I think in other ways I I've just I think it's very important I I've just I think it's very important I I've just I think it's very important to realize what is the context you're in to realize what is the context you're in to realize what is the context you're in and how is that naturally going to make and how is that naturally going to make and how is that naturally going to make you you you lean in one direction when it comes to lean in one direction when it comes to lean in one direction when it comes to your learning and the cultivation of your learning and the cultivation of your learning and the cultivation of your imagination. And are you choosing your imagination. And are you choosing your imagination. And are you choosing to swim against the current to cultivate to swim against the current to cultivate to swim against the current to cultivate your imagination other ways that are your imagination other ways that are your imagination other ways that are equally formative, but you might have equally formative, but you might have equally formative, but you might have massive blind spots toward if you don't massive blind spots toward if you don't massive blind spots toward if you don't intentionally pursue them. Does that intentionally pursue them. Does that intentionally pursue them. Does that make sense?

make sense? make sense? >> Uh makes total sense. One of the things >> Uh makes total sense. One of the things >> Uh makes total sense. One of the things I've been thinking about and talking I've been thinking about and talking I've been thinking about and talking about with my boys who are in their 30s about with my boys who are in their 30s about with my boys who are in their 30s now now now is lost generational knowledge. You is lost generational knowledge. You is lost generational knowledge. You think about what they would love the think about what they would love the think about what they would love the story of your grandmother. story of your grandmother. story of your grandmother. What she knows about those 20 square What she knows about those 20 square What she knows about those 20 square miles or her half acre or acre or miles or her half acre or acre or miles or her half acre or acre or whatever she's on whatever she's on whatever she's on is so deep. is so deep. is so deep. And what she could tell you about And what she could tell you about And what she could tell you about winters, I mean, I lived in the same winters, I mean, I lived in the same winters, I mean, I lived in the same community for three decades and I knew community for three decades and I knew community for three decades and I knew some of the old farmers who have pretty some of the old farmers who have pretty some of the old farmers who have pretty much died off, but they could tell you much died off, but they could tell you much died off, but they could tell you by a sky, by the way a tree looks, what by a sky, by the way a tree looks, what by a sky, by the way a tree looks, what the winter is going to be like, what the winter is going to be like, what the winter is going to be like, what you know, how much moisture there is in you know, how much moisture there is in you know, how much moisture there is in the ground based on how the spring is the ground based on how the spring is the ground based on how the spring is coming about, etc. That Honestly, most coming about, etc. That Honestly, most coming about, etc. That Honestly, most of us today have no idea. We're sort of of us today have no idea. We're sort of of us today have no idea. We're sort of in our environment, but not really. in our environment, but not really. in our environment, but not really. I don't really know what's in my yard. I I don't really know what's in my yard. I I don't really know what's in my yard. I don't really know what's in my garden. don't really know what's in my garden. don't really know what's in my garden. And your grandmother, there's just so And your grandmother, there's just so And your grandmother, there's just so much richness and knowledge there much richness and knowledge there much richness and knowledge there that if her hands could talk, if her that if her hands could talk, if her that if her hands could talk, if her fingers could talk, if the soil could fingers could talk, if the soil could fingers could talk, if the soil could talk, the stories it would tell you.

talk, the stories it would tell you. talk, the stories it would tell you. And And And in many ways we're we're we're in many ways we're we're we're in many ways we're we're we're well, I don't know that we're more well, I don't know that we're more well, I don't know that we're more intelligent than our forebears, intelligent than our forebears, intelligent than our forebears, but we've definitely lost some but we've definitely lost some but we've definitely lost some some knowledge some knowledge some knowledge along the way and definitely lost some along the way and definitely lost some along the way and definitely lost some wisdom. wisdom. wisdom. Hm. Hm. Hm. And it's funny how that's one generation And it's funny how that's one generation And it's funny how that's one generation away from you. away from you. away from you. Ain't that crazy? Ain't that crazy? Ain't that crazy? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. She was born in what, 1930, maybe? >> Yeah. She was born in what, 1930, maybe? >> Yeah. She was born in what, 1930, maybe? 1930-something. 1930-something. 1930-something. Hm. Hm. Hm. >> No, >> No, >> No, she was born in yeah, 1930-something. she was born in yeah, 1930-something. she was born in yeah, 1930-something. >> Yeah, that's crazy. So, in the midst of >> Yeah, that's crazy. So, in the midst of >> Yeah, that's crazy. So, in the midst of the Great Depression. the Great Depression. the Great Depression. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> When >> When >> When This has been such a beautiful This has been such a beautiful This has been such a beautiful conversation. conversation. conversation. So, So, So, talk to the college grad talk to the college grad talk to the college grad who just graduated their their first who just graduated their their first who just graduated their their first degree. Maybe they're thinking about degree. Maybe they're thinking about degree. Maybe they're thinking about ministry or they're thinking about ministry or they're thinking about ministry or they're thinking about vocation out in the marketplace. vocation out in the marketplace. vocation out in the marketplace. They're hungry for what we've been They're hungry for what we've been They're hungry for what we've been talking about for the last hour.

talking about for the last hour. talking about for the last hour. Where would you suggest that they start? >> This is going to seem >> This is going to seem so simple, so simple, so simple, but I'll just say by noticing. I think the most formative practice I think the most formative practice in my spiritual life is that everywhere in my spiritual life is that everywhere in my spiritual life is that everywhere I've ever lived, I've ever lived, I've ever lived, I've always I've always I've always had a daily or weekly practice of taking had a daily or weekly practice of taking had a daily or weekly practice of taking walks walks walks and just noticing. and just noticing. and just noticing. Noticing people, Noticing people, Noticing people, noticing noticing noticing creation, [clears throat] creation, [clears throat] creation, [clears throat] businesses, businesses, businesses, changes, changes, changes, cracks in the sidewalk, whatever it may cracks in the sidewalk, whatever it may cracks in the sidewalk, whatever it may be. be. be. And I think And I think And I think today we face the great threat of just today we face the great threat of just today we face the great threat of just living in a living in a living in a really tunnel vision world really tunnel vision world really tunnel vision world because most of us have our faces fixed because most of us have our faces fixed because most of us have our faces fixed on a screen that's feeding us a on a screen that's feeding us a on a screen that's feeding us a particular algorithm.

particular algorithm. particular algorithm. And And And very few people take walks anymore, very few people take walks anymore, very few people take walks anymore, notice anything or anyone. notice anything or anyone. notice anything or anyone. And I think if you begin just noticing, And I think if you begin just noticing, And I think if you begin just noticing, that God will use that to form that God will use that to form that God will use that to form your heart and your compassion, form your heart and your compassion, form your heart and your compassion, form your eyes, your eyes, your eyes, form your uh form your uh form your uh what you value and what you don't, what you value and what you don't, what you value and what you don't, form your sense of smallness in a good form your sense of smallness in a good form your sense of smallness in a good way, way, way, like return you to the humility that like return you to the humility that like return you to the humility that he draws near to and that helps you to he draws near to and that helps you to he draws near to and that helps you to find your proper place in his massive find your proper place in his massive find your proper place in his massive world. world. world. Uh so I think I would say, Uh so I think I would say, Uh so I think I would say, "Hey, wherever you are and whatever you "Hey, wherever you are and whatever you "Hey, wherever you are and whatever you pursue next, just make sure you pursue next, just make sure you pursue next, just make sure you cultivate some habits that work for you cultivate some habits that work for you cultivate some habits that work for you to help you to notice to help you to notice to help you to notice uh the world beyond you and how small uh the world beyond you and how small uh the world beyond you and how small you really are and how big God is." you really are and how big God is." you really are and how big God is." And then try to live your life in And then try to live your life in And then try to live your life in response to that. response to that. response to that. >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, I'm excited to sit down and feast on the I'm excited to sit down and feast on the I'm excited to sit down and feast on the new book. It's called After Amen. Do you new book. It's called After Amen. Do you new book. It's called After Amen. Do you want to tell us a little bit about it?

want to tell us a little bit about it? want to tell us a little bit about it? It's a different kind of book. If you're It's a different kind of book. If you're It's a different kind of book. If you're looking for the sermon series that got looking for the sermon series that got looking for the sermon series that got turned into a book or turned into a book or turned into a book or another work of nonfiction, that's not another work of nonfiction, that's not another work of nonfiction, that's not exactly this. So, what's the heart exactly this. So, what's the heart exactly this. So, what's the heart behind After Amen? behind After Amen? behind After Amen? >> Yeah, I I started writing poetry >> Yeah, I I started writing poetry >> Yeah, I I started writing poetry as prayer when I was going through as prayer when I was going through as prayer when I was going through chemotherapy chemotherapy chemotherapy and then continued on afterwards. and then continued on afterwards. and then continued on afterwards. Never intending for any of it to be Never intending for any of it to be Never intending for any of it to be published. published. published. My publisher came to me and said, "Hey, My publisher came to me and said, "Hey, My publisher came to me and said, "Hey, we're interested in we're interested in we're interested in publishing a book of poetry. publishing a book of poetry. publishing a book of poetry. Uh Uh Uh don't think anyone will buy it or really don't think anyone will buy it or really don't think anyone will buy it or really read it, but just to fill out our read it, but just to fill out our read it, but just to fill out our literary catalog, do you know anyone who literary catalog, do you know anyone who literary catalog, do you know anyone who writes poetry?" And I I connected them writes poetry?" And I I connected them writes poetry?" And I I connected them with some poets I really respect. I with some poets I really respect. I with some poets I really respect. I think they just thought like think they just thought like think they just thought like I'm weird enough that I probably know a I'm weird enough that I probably know a I'm weird enough that I probably know a guy or two who writes poetry and guy or two who writes poetry and guy or two who writes poetry and then then then a couple months later, I end up sharing a couple months later, I end up sharing a couple months later, I end up sharing a little bit of my poetry after a long a little bit of my poetry after a long a little bit of my poetry after a long conversation with my wife, who's the conversation with my wife, who's the conversation with my wife, who's the only person who ever read it.

only person who ever read it. only person who ever read it. All the it The book After Amen, it's All the it The book After Amen, it's All the it The book After Amen, it's about the slowest growing and sweetest about the slowest growing and sweetest about the slowest growing and sweetest tasting fruit of a life of prayer being tasting fruit of a life of prayer being tasting fruit of a life of prayer being who it makes me after all of my Amens. who it makes me after all of my Amens. who it makes me after all of my Amens. And And And it's a 50-day devotional structured it's a 50-day devotional structured it's a 50-day devotional structured according to John's gospel, which is my according to John's gospel, which is my according to John's gospel, which is my personal favorite book in the Bible. personal favorite book in the Bible. personal favorite book in the Bible. And And And John structures his gospel according to John structures his gospel according to John structures his gospel according to seven signs, so it's seven-week seven signs, so it's seven-week seven signs, so it's seven-week devotional that takes you through devotional that takes you through devotional that takes you through passages from John's gospel, the passages from John's gospel, the passages from John's gospel, the miracles Jesus works within, and paired miracles Jesus works within, and paired miracles Jesus works within, and paired poems poems poems that I wrote uh that I wrote uh that I wrote uh with each passage, there's a reflection with each passage, there's a reflection with each passage, there's a reflection I've written for each day that braids I've written for each day that braids I've written for each day that braids the poem and the passage together. And the poem and the passage together. And the poem and the passage together. And then it culminates in a prayer that then it culminates in a prayer that then it culminates in a prayer that hopefully gives birth hopefully gives birth hopefully gives birth to the prayers of individual reading it. to the prayers of individual reading it. to the prayers of individual reading it. Um and it's probably Um and it's probably Um and it's probably it's the most sacred book for me that it's the most sacred book for me that it's the most sacred book for me that I've ever gotten to put into the world I've ever gotten to put into the world I've ever gotten to put into the world because because because all of the every poem is an actual all of the every poem is an actual all of the every poem is an actual prayer I wrote in my own journal never prayer I wrote in my own journal never prayer I wrote in my own journal never intending for anyone to see it but me intending for anyone to see it but me intending for anyone to see it but me and God. So it is a an invitation, quite and God. So it is a an invitation, quite and God. So it is a an invitation, quite honestly, just to live inside my prayers honestly, just to live inside my prayers honestly, just to live inside my prayers for 50 days and then hopefully for 50 days and then hopefully for 50 days and then hopefully living inside my prayers gives birth to living inside my prayers gives birth to living inside my prayers gives birth to some of your own.

some of your own. some of your own. >> Hmm. Well, I'm very excited to dive into >> Hmm. Well, I'm very excited to dive into >> Hmm. Well, I'm very excited to dive into it this summer. it this summer. it this summer. Uh had a brief look at it as we were Uh had a brief look at it as we were Uh had a brief look at it as we were getting ready to record this and uh getting ready to record this and uh getting ready to record this and uh definitely worth feasting on. We'll link definitely worth feasting on. We'll link definitely worth feasting on. We'll link to it in the show notes. And you know, to it in the show notes. And you know, to it in the show notes. And you know, what's interesting? what's interesting? what's interesting? Not knowing it would ever be published, Not knowing it would ever be published, Not knowing it would ever be published, my favorite Henri Nouwen book is uh the my favorite Henri Nouwen book is uh the my favorite Henri Nouwen book is uh the Genesee Diaries, his diary from 1974, Genesee Diaries, his diary from 1974, Genesee Diaries, his diary from 1974, which he never intended to be published. which he never intended to be published. which he never intended to be published. And I forget the exact story about how And I forget the exact story about how And I forget the exact story about how it came to be published, but you see the it came to be published, but you see the it came to be published, but you see the battle for his soul as he goes from battle for his soul as he goes from battle for his soul as he goes from being a uh rising notable being a uh rising notable being a uh rising notable and academic and academic and academic to becoming the Henri Nouwen we all know to becoming the Henri Nouwen we all know to becoming the Henri Nouwen we all know and love. Absolutely hands-down my and love. Absolutely hands-down my and love. Absolutely hands-down my favorite Nouwen book and one of those favorite Nouwen book and one of those favorite Nouwen book and one of those glimpses into the ordinariness and the glimpses into the ordinariness and the glimpses into the ordinariness and the extraordinariness of the everyday for 6 extraordinariness of the everyday for 6 extraordinariness of the everyday for 6 months of his life in 1974. Fascinating. months of his life in 1974. Fascinating. months of his life in 1974. Fascinating. So, we'll link to that, too. One of my So, we'll link to that, too. One of my So, we'll link to that, too. One of my all-time all-time all-time most given away books. So, Tyler most given away books. So, Tyler most given away books. So, Tyler >> Gorgeous.

>> Gorgeous. >> Gorgeous. >> This feels like sacred ground. This >> This feels like sacred ground. This >> This feels like sacred ground. This feels like a really feels like a really feels like a really I had a bunch of questions prepared and I had a bunch of questions prepared and I had a bunch of questions prepared and we just went in some really we just went in some really we just went in some really interesting directions and I just want interesting directions and I just want interesting directions and I just want to thank you so much for being fully to thank you so much for being fully to thank you so much for being fully present, for present, for present, for sharing from your heart sharing from your heart sharing from your heart for helping me think about how I might for helping me think about how I might for helping me think about how I might want to live these years ahead want to live these years ahead want to live these years ahead in a more intentional in a more intentional in a more intentional slower pace. Thank you. slower pace. Thank you. slower pace. Thank you. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Absolutely. It's always fun talking with Absolutely. It's always fun talking with Absolutely. It's always fun talking with you, Carey. Bless you, my brother. you, Carey. Bless you, my brother. you, Carey. Bless you, my brother. >> Thank you. Bless you. >> Thank you. Bless you. >> Thank you. Bless you. That felt great, didn't it? Uh what I That felt great, didn't it? Uh what I That felt great, didn't it? Uh what I try to do here is I try to bring you the try to do here is I try to bring you the try to do here is I try to bring you the conversations you would have if you're conversations you would have if you're conversations you would have if you're sitting at dinner with Tyler or sitting sitting at dinner with Tyler or sitting sitting at dinner with Tyler or sitting on a roof telling stories and asking on a roof telling stories and asking on a roof telling stories and asking questions questions questions or wherever you might meet him. I really or wherever you might meet him. I really or wherever you might meet him. I really enjoyed it and my favorite interviews enjoyed it and my favorite interviews enjoyed it and my favorite interviews are the one that go in all kinds of are the one that go in all kinds of are the one that go in all kinds of different directions and that's what different directions and that's what different directions and that's what that one did. So, I hope you found that that one did. So, I hope you found that that one did. So, I hope you found that helpful. If you want show notes, we helpful. If you want show notes, we helpful. If you want show notes, we shouted out a lot of authors, thinkers shouted out a lot of authors, thinkers shouted out a lot of authors, thinkers books, etc. You can get them easiest way books, etc. You can get them easiest way books, etc. You can get them easiest way for free. Join 22,000 other leaders in for free. Join 22,000 other leaders in for free. Join 22,000 other leaders in the Art of Leadership Academy. You can the Art of Leadership Academy. You can the Art of Leadership Academy. You can join absolutely free. You'll find join absolutely free. You'll find join absolutely free. You'll find podcast episodes in the show notes podcast episodes in the show notes podcast episodes in the show notes there. Some good conversation as well.

there. Some good conversation as well. there. Some good conversation as well. Go to the art of leadershipacademy.com Go to the art of leadershipacademy.com Go to the art of leadershipacademy.com and you can sign up. and you can sign up. and you can sign up. Absolutely free. There's a premium tier Absolutely free. There's a premium tier Absolutely free. There's a premium tier as well you should probably check out. as well you should probably check out. as well you should probably check out. That's where I show up on the regular That's where I show up on the regular That's where I show up on the regular and would love to meet you there as a and would love to meet you there as a and would love to meet you there as a leader. Coming up, we have Ron Friedman, leader. Coming up, we have Ron Friedman, leader. Coming up, we have Ron Friedman, Will Guidara, Rich Birch, Eric Geiger, Will Guidara, Rich Birch, Eric Geiger, Will Guidara, Rich Birch, Eric Geiger, Charlie Dates, Charlie Dates, Charlie Dates, and then we start my AI series. And JP and then we start my AI series. And JP and then we start my AI series. And JP Pulter is coming back to the podcast to Pulter is coming back to the podcast to Pulter is coming back to the podcast to interview me. If this conversation was interview me. If this conversation was interview me. If this conversation was helpful, leave a review or comment helpful, leave a review or comment helpful, leave a review or comment wherever you're listening. Remember to wherever you're listening. Remember to wherever you're listening. Remember to follow, hit subscribe, share it with a follow, hit subscribe, share it with a follow, hit subscribe, share it with a friend. We'll catch you next time, and I friend. We'll catch you next time, and I friend. We'll catch you next time, and I hope our time together today helped you hope our time together today helped you hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.