Leading Through the Election & How the Gospel is Political with N.T. Wright

if you say if you're a Christian I don't if you say if you're a Christian I don't care how the city is working I'm saying care how the city is working I'm saying care how the city is working I'm saying my prayers and I'm going to heaven then my prayers and I'm going to heaven then my prayers and I'm going to heaven then you just haven't heard the primary call you just haven't heard the primary call you just haven't heard the primary call of the Gospel which is it's time for God of the Gospel which is it's time for God of the Gospel which is it's time for God to become king and so if you then look to become king and so if you then look to become king and so if you then look out of the window and see bad things out of the window and see bad things out of the window and see bad things happening you might want to say um we happening you might want to say um we happening you might want to say um we need to team up with everyone else who need to team up with everyone else who need to team up with everyone else who thinks there are bad things happening thinks there are bad things happening thinks there are bad things happening and we need to link arms and say our and we need to link arms and say our and we need to link arms and say our prayers and see what can be done to sort prayers and see what can be done to sort prayers and see what can be done to sort this out welcome to the car newoff this out welcome to the car newoff this out welcome to the car newoff leadership podcast on YouTube I'm so leadership podcast on YouTube I'm so leadership podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you joined us and today we have got glad you joined us and today we have got glad you joined us and today we have got NT W if there was ever an incentive to NT W if there was ever an incentive to NT W if there was ever an incentive to subscribe to this channel it's so you subscribe to this channel it's so you subscribe to this channel it's so you don't miss people like him he's one of don't miss people like him he's one of don't miss people like him he's one of the greatest living Minds on the New the greatest living Minds on the New the greatest living Minds on the New Testament alive today and we're going to Testament alive today and we're going to Testament alive today and we're going to talk about politics then and politics talk about politics then and politics talk about politics then and politics now and what you can do to lead through now and what you can do to lead through now and what you can do to lead through division now NT Wright is one of the division now NT Wright is one of the division now NT Wright is one of the greatest New Testament Scholars alive if greatest New Testament Scholars alive if greatest New Testament Scholars alive if not the greatest and a lot of his not the greatest and a lot of his not the greatest and a lot of his teachings reside at ad.org do you know teachings reside at ad.org do you know teachings reside at ad.org do you know because you're watching this we're because you're watching this we're because you're watching this we're giving away 10 scholarships valued at giving away 10 scholarships valued at giving away 10 scholarships valued at $200 each giving you free range to $200 each giving you free range to $200 each giving you free range to choose from Professor wri's extensive choose from Professor wri's extensive choose from Professor wri's extensive courses so here's what we're going to do courses so here's what we're going to do courses so here's what we're going to do we want you to enter share this episode we want you to enter share this episode we want you to enter share this episode on your favorite social platform and be on your favorite social platform and be on your favorite social platform and be sure to tag me when I post this episode sure to tag me when I post this episode sure to tag me when I post this episode to my Instagram account leave a comment to my Instagram account leave a comment to my Instagram account leave a comment telling my team and me how the telling my team and me how the telling my team and me how the scholarship will impact your leadership scholarship will impact your leadership scholarship will impact your leadership 10 winners will be chosen on September 10 winners will be chosen on September 10 winners will be chosen on September 12th so don't miss this free giveaway 12th so don't miss this free giveaway 12th so don't miss this free giveaway today's episode is brought to you by today's episode is brought to you by today's episode is brought to you by subsplash sub spash puts the best of subsplash sub spash puts the best of subsplash sub spash puts the best of today's Church technology into your

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growing up long before social media or growing up long before social media or the internet um and when the news was the internet um and when the news was the internet um and when the news was much more heavily edited than it might much more heavily edited than it might much more heavily edited than it might be now um then uh you only got to hear be now um then uh you only got to hear be now um then uh you only got to hear about what certain people wanted you to about what certain people wanted you to about what certain people wanted you to hear about now no doubt that is still hear about now no doubt that is still hear about now no doubt that is still the case to some extent but we're now at the case to some extent but we're now at the case to some extent but we're now at the position where say a soldier the position where say a soldier the position where say a soldier fighting a battle can take photographs fighting a battle can take photographs fighting a battle can take photographs or take a video and send it home to or take a video and send it home to or take a video and send it home to friends who will put it on the web and friends who will put it on the web and friends who will put it on the web and it'll be around the world world as fast it'll be around the world world as fast it'll be around the world world as fast as anyone wants and and time was when as anyone wants and and time was when as anyone wants and and time was when that was simply Unthinkable um as a that was simply Unthinkable um as a that was simply Unthinkable um as a result we do know about a lot of very result we do know about a lot of very result we do know about a lot of very unpleasant things that are happening in unpleasant things that are happening in unpleasant things that are happening in the world in a way which they may well the world in a way which they may well the world in a way which they may well have been going on before but we didn't have been going on before but we didn't have been going on before but we didn't know about them now having said that um know about them now having said that um know about them now having said that um I have been reflecting that uh the the I have been reflecting that uh the the I have been reflecting that uh the the various crisis that are going on at the various crisis that are going on at the various crisis that are going on at the moment whether we think of Russia moment whether we think of Russia moment whether we think of Russia invading Ukraine whether we think of the invading Ukraine whether we think of the invading Ukraine whether we think of the Middle East um whatever um the world Middle East um whatever um the world Middle East um whatever um the world does seem to be uh a more volatile place does seem to be uh a more volatile place does seem to be uh a more volatile place than it's been for most of my lifetime I than it's been for most of my lifetime I than it's been for most of my lifetime I suppose the last time it was this suppose the last time it was this suppose the last time it was this nervous was um the Cuban Missile Crisis nervous was um the Cuban Missile Crisis nervous was um the Cuban Missile Crisis and I was only just um old enough to and I was only just um old enough to and I was only just um old enough to know about that I think I was 13 or know about that I think I was 13 or know about that I think I was 13 or something at the time in the early 1960s something at the time in the early 1960s something at the time in the early 1960s and I remember hearing about it and and I remember hearing about it and and I remember hearing about it and hearing adults on the radio and hearing adults on the radio and hearing adults on the radio and television being very worried about what television being very worried about what television being very worried about what this could mean and then um they backed this could mean and then um they backed this could mean and then um they backed down Chris jof and Kennedy backed down down Chris jof and Kennedy backed down down Chris jof and Kennedy backed down from that confrontation and in a sense from that confrontation and in a sense from that confrontation and in a sense that was the beginning of the end of the that was the beginning of the end of the that was the beginning of the end of the Cold War I mean that's an Cold War I mean that's an Cold War I mean that's an oversimplification but you see what I oversimplification but you see what I oversimplification but you see what I mean um and then since when the cold war

mean um and then since when the cold war mean um and then since when the cold war finally um cooled off completely um a finally um cooled off completely um a finally um cooled off completely um a lot of people thought pH that's it we're lot of people thought pH that's it we're lot of people thought pH that's it we're now in a world where everyone really now in a world where everyone really now in a world where everyone really wants to be nice Western C Democrats and wants to be nice Western C Democrats and wants to be nice Western C Democrats and so on but since then um and as I say the so on but since then um and as I say the so on but since then um and as I say the internet has had a lot to do with it internet has had a lot to do with it internet has had a lot to do with it because um opinions including foolish because um opinions including foolish because um opinions including foolish and ill-judged opinions can Flash around and ill-judged opinions can Flash around and ill-judged opinions can Flash around the world and generate reactions and so the world and generate reactions and so the world and generate reactions and so on um very very quickly now in a way on um very very quickly now in a way on um very very quickly now in a way that wasn't possible before and we've that wasn't possible before and we've that wasn't possible before and we've also seen of course in the last 25 years also seen of course in the last 25 years also seen of course in the last 25 years the rise of something that we can the rise of something that we can the rise of something that we can Loosely called islamism which is very Loosely called islamism which is very Loosely called islamism which is very different from Islam that's been with us different from Islam that's been with us different from Islam that's been with us for many centuries and has lived for many centuries and has lived for many centuries and has lived alongside Jews and Christians quite alongside Jews and Christians quite alongside Jews and Christians quite peaceably for most of the most of that peaceably for most of the most of that peaceably for most of the most of that time not all but most of that time but time not all but most of that time but time not all but most of that time but quite suddenly and obviously 911 was the quite suddenly and obviously 911 was the quite suddenly and obviously 911 was the flash point for this um so so the flash point for this um so so the flash point for this um so so the internet and islamism are two kind of internet and islamism are two kind of internet and islamism are two kind of new form forces which then have come in new form forces which then have come in new form forces which then have come in on top of existing tensions obviously on top of existing tensions obviously on top of existing tensions obviously Russia and the West is still there with Russia and the West is still there with Russia and the West is still there with um with all all that goes on there and um with all all that goes on there and um with all all that goes on there and obviously the question of Israel and the obviously the question of Israel and the obviously the question of Israel and the Jewish people um both in the Middle East Jewish people um both in the Middle East Jewish people um both in the Middle East and around the world continues to be as and around the world continues to be as and around the world continues to be as it's been for a long time a very it's been for a long time a very it's been for a long time a very difficult one and so so so there are difficult one and so so so there are difficult one and so so so there are some existing difficulties which go back some existing difficulties which go back some existing difficulties which go back but I think we've got to a point where but I think we've got to a point where but I think we've got to a point where there is a lot more it's a lot more more there is a lot more it's a lot more more there is a lot more it's a lot more more fraught than it used to be in a sense fraught than it used to be in a sense fraught than it used to be in a sense that actually one or two very foolish that actually one or two very foolish that actually one or two very foolish people could do one or two very foolish

people could do one or two very foolish people could do one or two very foolish things which might set quite literally things which might set quite literally things which might set quite literally set the whole world of blaze in a way set the whole world of blaze in a way set the whole world of blaze in a way which I don't think we've thought was which I don't think we've thought was which I don't think we've thought was likely for the for most of my lifetime likely for the for most of my lifetime likely for the for most of my lifetime and I'm 75 by the and I'm 75 by the and I'm 75 by the way Tom I think one of the advantages way Tom I think one of the advantages way Tom I think one of the advantages you and I have I don't remember the you and I have I don't remember the you and I have I don't remember the Cuban Missile Crisis I wasn't quite born Cuban Missile Crisis I wasn't quite born Cuban Missile Crisis I wasn't quite born yet but I remember the Cold War and I yet but I remember the Cold War and I yet but I remember the Cold War and I remember the salt talks the start talks remember the salt talks the start talks remember the salt talks the start talks and the follow the Berlin Wall Etc and and the follow the Berlin Wall Etc and and the follow the Berlin Wall Etc and you're right news was curated into 30 you're right news was curated into 30 you're right news was curated into 30 minute packages that you watched at minute packages that you watched at minute packages that you watched at night if you caught the news and maybe night if you caught the news and maybe night if you caught the news and maybe you saw it in a newspaper um I think you saw it in a newspaper um I think you saw it in a newspaper um I think this is a big issue for a lot of our this is a big issue for a lot of our this is a big issue for a lot of our listeners and you have the advantage of listeners and you have the advantage of listeners and you have the advantage of having a long pre-digital memory so I'm having a long pre-digital memory so I'm having a long pre-digital memory so I'm curious because anxiety is spiking you curious because anxiety is spiking you curious because anxiety is spiking you know that you've read the statistics know that you've read the statistics know that you've read the statistics what is your approach to news what is your approach to news what is your approach to news consumption in a very partisan divided consumption in a very partisan divided consumption in a very partisan divided age what are some of the best practices age what are some of the best practices age what are some of the best practices you could recommend it's very very you could recommend it's very very you could recommend it's very very difficult um I I watch my wife and I difficult um I I watch my wife and I difficult um I I watch my wife and I watch um various different channels BBC watch um various different channels BBC watch um various different channels BBC independent television Etc um and I get independent television Etc um and I get independent television Etc um and I get routinely more and more fed up with routinely more and more fed up with routinely more and more fed up with their choice of which topics they're their choice of which topics they're their choice of which topics they're going to focus on and it becomes as is going to focus on and it becomes as is going to focus on and it becomes as is well known infotainment if that's a if well known infotainment if that's a if well known infotainment if that's a if that's still allowed as a word um in that's still allowed as a word um in that's still allowed as a word um in other words entertainment masquerading other words entertainment masquerading other words entertainment masquerading as information um and of course the as information um and of course the as information um and of course the people who organize those channels um

people who organize those channels um people who organize those channels um they want to make their shows more they want to make their shows more they want to make their shows more popular than the other ones so they put popular than the other ones so they put popular than the other ones so they put on things which they know will spark on things which they know will spark on things which they know will spark certain interests and anger and so on so certain interests and anger and so on so certain interests and anger and so on so I I feel I feel rather like I remember I I feel I feel rather like I remember I I feel I feel rather like I remember um watching my grandfather getting very um watching my grandfather getting very um watching my grandfather getting very cross with the then only channel of news cross with the then only channel of news cross with the then only channel of news that was available in the in the late that was available in the in the late that was available in the in the late 1950s early 1960s just watch the one 1950s early 1960s just watch the one 1950s early 1960s just watch the one channel and he would shout and say we channel and he would shout and say we channel and he would shout and say we don't want to know about that tell us don't want to know about that tell us don't want to know about that tell us about such and such so and I feel quite about such and such so and I feel quite about such and such so and I feel quite quite like that now I'm not sure there's quite like that now I'm not sure there's quite like that now I'm not sure there's anything much we can do about that um anything much we can do about that um anything much we can do about that um people who really want to be responsible people who really want to be responsible people who really want to be responsible about this will take or read online about this will take or read online about this will take or read online three or four quite different newspapers three or four quite different newspapers three or four quite different newspapers and magazines I mean in in this country and magazines I mean in in this country and magazines I mean in in this country at the end of every week we get the at the end of every week we get the at the end of every week we get the spectator which is a right-wing magazine spectator which is a right-wing magazine spectator which is a right-wing magazine and the new Statesman which is a and the new Statesman which is a and the new Statesman which is a leftwing magazine and ideally one should leftwing magazine and ideally one should leftwing magazine and ideally one should buy both and read them one eye on each buy both and read them one eye on each buy both and read them one eye on each as it were and feel the different as it were and feel the different as it were and feel the different currents of opinions but that's only currents of opinions but that's only currents of opinions but that's only within the British scene and the left within the British scene and the left within the British scene and the left and right within the British scene and and right within the British scene and and right within the British scene and of course there are many many other of course there are many many other of course there are many many other things and you only have to go to other things and you only have to go to other things and you only have to go to other parts of the world starting with America parts of the world starting with America parts of the world starting with America maybe but um many other parts of the maybe but um many other parts of the maybe but um many other parts of the world to realize there are totally world to realize there are totally world to realize there are totally totally different perspectives on things totally different perspectives on things totally different perspectives on things and um being well informed um has always and um being well informed um has always and um being well informed um has always been difficult and uh ironically because been difficult and uh ironically because been difficult and uh ironically because the world is now full of information and the world is now full of information and the world is now full of information and you can log onto at any time in any you can log onto at any time in any you can log onto at any time in any direction um it's it's got worse because direction um it's it's got worse because direction um it's it's got worse because most people haven't got time or ability most people haven't got time or ability most people haven't got time or ability really to take on board and think

really to take on board and think really to take on board and think reflectively and wisely about all the reflectively and wisely about all the reflectively and wisely about all the different things that are going on so it different things that are going on so it different things that are going on so it is difficult um and I think we each have is difficult um and I think we each have is difficult um and I think we each have to make choices as best we can as to how to make choices as best we can as to how to make choices as best we can as to how many hours or minutes a day we're going many hours or minutes a day we're going many hours or minutes a day we're going to give to um trying to find out what's to give to um trying to find out what's to give to um trying to find out what's going on in our world and that that is a going on in our world and that that is a going on in our world and that that is a real real real toughy yeah you know one of the things toughy yeah you know one of the things toughy yeah you know one of the things you're known for you've written books is you're known for you've written books is you're known for you've written books is that about right there's a few 85 now 85 that about right there's a few 85 now 85 that about right there's a few 85 now 85 wow written a few since we started this wow written a few since we started this wow written a few since we started this interview I'm interview I'm interview I'm sure but one of the things one of the sure but one of the things one of the sure but one of the things one of the things that you're known for is deep things that you're known for is deep things that you're known for is deep work like your biography on Paul your work like your biography on Paul your work like your biography on Paul your work on the New Testament I mean they're work on the New Testament I mean they're work on the New Testament I mean they're not they're not simple Toms and even not they're not simple Toms and even not they're not simple Toms and even your new book on Jesus and the powers your new book on Jesus and the powers your new book on Jesus and the powers it's extremely well thought through it's extremely well thought through it's extremely well thought through we've had Cal Newport on this podcast we've had Cal Newport on this podcast we've had Cal Newport on this podcast numerous times he talks about deep work numerous times he talks about deep work numerous times he talks about deep work and uh that's one of the things I really and uh that's one of the things I really and uh that's one of the things I really admire about you so I would imagine that admire about you so I would imagine that admire about you so I would imagine that you are drinking from deeper streams you are drinking from deeper streams you are drinking from deeper streams than somebody who is just you know than somebody who is just you know than somebody who is just you know addicted to X or to Instagram and I'd addicted to X or to Instagram and I'd addicted to X or to Instagram and I'd love to know some of your personal love to know some of your personal love to know some of your personal reading habits because I think one of reading habits because I think one of reading habits because I think one of the things I'd love to do in the series the things I'd love to do in the series the things I'd love to do in the series that we're doing on on leading through a that we're doing on on leading through a that we're doing on on leading through a partisan age is if you're only getting partisan age is if you're only getting partisan age is if you're only getting the headlines if you're only getting the the headlines if you're only getting the the headlines if you're only getting the infotainment that is going to do infotainment that is going to do infotainment that is going to do something to your brain and make it very something to your brain and make it very something to your brain and make it very difficult to lead so can you tell us a difficult to lead so can you tell us a difficult to lead so can you tell us a little bit about your habits and your little bit about your habits and your little bit about your habits and your reading patterns for a Deeper Life it reading patterns for a Deeper Life it reading patterns for a Deeper Life it I'm not sure I can hold myself up as a I'm not sure I can hold myself up as a I'm not sure I can hold myself up as a great shining example and as I say at my

great shining example and as I say at my great shining example and as I say at my age one ought really to be putting one's age one ought really to be putting one's age one ought really to be putting one's feet up or maybe getting out on the golf feet up or maybe getting out on the golf feet up or maybe getting out on the golf course or whatever and letting the Next course or whatever and letting the Next course or whatever and letting the Next Generation Um think about things and run Generation Um think about things and run Generation Um think about things and run the world you know I've been trying to the world you know I've been trying to the world you know I've been trying to do various things in the church and the do various things in the church and the do various things in the church and the world for a long time now and uh um but world for a long time now and uh um but world for a long time now and uh um but I I try to keep up reading in different I I try to keep up reading in different I I try to keep up reading in different fields I I like reading biographies fields I I like reading biographies fields I I like reading biographies especially biographies of people who've especially biographies of people who've especially biographies of people who've been influential both as theologians um been influential both as theologians um been influential both as theologians um for instance biography of the late for instance biography of the late for instance biography of the late recently departed Jurgen molan which I'm recently departed Jurgen molan which I'm recently departed Jurgen molan which I'm actually halfway through at the moment actually halfway through at the moment actually halfway through at the moment very interesting stuff um and when you very interesting stuff um and when you very interesting stuff um and when you read biography you're seeing the world read biography you're seeing the world read biography you're seeing the world through two other pairs of eyes the through two other pairs of eyes the through two other pairs of eyes the subject and the author of the biography subject and the author of the biography subject and the author of the biography and the biography is going to be the and the biography is going to be the and the biography is going to be the more interesting the the the more more interesting the the the more more interesting the the the more distant they are from you but I also of distant they are from you but I also of distant they are from you but I also of course um still read as much as I can of course um still read as much as I can of course um still read as much as I can of basically ancient history um so basically ancient history um so basically ancient history um so biographies of of leaders in the biographies of of leaders in the biographies of of leaders in the herodian period um but also stuff about herodian period um but also stuff about herodian period um but also stuff about the New Testament in its world I've been the New Testament in its world I've been the New Testament in its world I've been fascinated by Roman history and Greek fascinated by Roman history and Greek fascinated by Roman history and Greek history ever since I was quite small I history ever since I was quite small I history ever since I was quite small I mean I started in on that when I was mean I started in on that when I was mean I started in on that when I was about 14 and if you you can probably see about 14 and if you you can probably see about 14 and if you you can probably see on the wall behind me um lots and lots on the wall behind me um lots and lots on the wall behind me um lots and lots of classical texts and in a sense that's of classical texts and in a sense that's of classical texts and in a sense that's where I feel at home and going back to where I feel at home and going back to where I feel at home and going back to how things were in the early Roman how things were in the early Roman how things were in the early Roman Empire and the rhetoric and the and the Empire and the rhetoric and the and the Empire and the rhetoric and the and the um propaganda and so on that they used um propaganda and so on that they used um propaganda and so on that they used and how that was received and so on and how that was received and so on and how that was received and so on that's a very interesting exercise it that's a very interesting exercise it that's a very interesting exercise it puts into perspective um all sorts of

puts into perspective um all sorts of puts into perspective um all sorts of things that we do today especially the things that we do today especially the things that we do today especially the early Roman Empire um contrasting and early Roman Empire um contrasting and early Roman Empire um contrasting and comparison with the British Empire of comparison with the British Empire of comparison with the British Empire of 100 years ago 150 years ago and the 100 years ago 150 years ago and the 100 years ago 150 years ago and the American Empire Today such as it is um American Empire Today such as it is um American Empire Today such as it is um because there are certain patterns which because there are certain patterns which because there are certain patterns which repeat but then with significant repeat but then with significant repeat but then with significant differences and so I like to feel I'm differences and so I like to feel I'm differences and so I like to feel I'm I'm trying to live with those different I'm trying to live with those different I'm trying to live with those different things and not get trapped in one box at things and not get trapped in one box at things and not get trapped in one box at any one time I also do quite different any one time I also do quite different any one time I also do quite different things I read a certain amount of poetry things I read a certain amount of poetry things I read a certain amount of poetry um and uh I just love getting the um and uh I just love getting the um and uh I just love getting the different perspectives on life that a different perspectives on life that a different perspectives on life that a good poet or a good selection of poets good poet or a good selection of poets good poet or a good selection of poets will bring not just in other words will bring not just in other words will bring not just in other words history and current affairs and and so history and current affairs and and so history and current affairs and and so on I think that's such a a wise course on I think that's such a a wise course on I think that's such a a wise course and some of the people I enjoy reading and some of the people I enjoy reading and some of the people I enjoy reading the most have similar habits if there's the most have similar habits if there's the most have similar habits if there's a young reader a young leader who would a young reader a young leader who would a young reader a young leader who would love to jump into a biography let's say love to jump into a biography let's say love to jump into a biography let's say they've never read one before do you they've never read one before do you they've never read one before do you have one or two that you would recommend have one or two that you would recommend have one or two that you would recommend as oh you'll you'll get hooked if you as oh you'll you'll get hooked if you as oh you'll you'll get hooked if you read these or this is a particularly read these or this is a particularly read these or this is a particularly good work that you would recommend I good work that you would recommend I good work that you would recommend I mean you've read dozens hundreds I'm mean you've read dozens hundreds I'm mean you've read dozens hundreds I'm sure biographies over time goodness um I sure biographies over time goodness um I sure biographies over time goodness um I I just recently read the autobiography I just recently read the autobiography I just recently read the autobiography of Peter Brown who's a historian I of Peter Brown who's a historian I of Peter Brown who's a historian I suppose he's in his 80s now he taught suppose he's in his 80s now he taught suppose he's in his 80s now he taught here at Oxford for a long time but also here at Oxford for a long time but also here at Oxford for a long time but also taught at Princeton and various other taught at Princeton and various other taught at Princeton and various other places in the states what fascinated me places in the states what fascinated me places in the states what fascinated me about Peter Brown was that having become about Peter Brown was that having become about Peter Brown was that having become a master of um the uh ancient and then

a master of um the uh ancient and then a master of um the uh ancient and then medieval period in Europe he wanted he medieval period in Europe he wanted he medieval period in Europe he wanted he wasn't content with that he wanted to wasn't content with that he wanted to wasn't content with that he wanted to know what was going on in other parts of know what was going on in other parts of know what was going on in other parts of the world and so if you look further the world and so if you look further the world and so if you look further east Iran was just the most amazing east Iran was just the most amazing east Iran was just the most amazing culture still is the most amazing culture still is the most amazing culture still is the most amazing culture and he went and lived there and culture and he went and lived there and culture and he went and lived there and studied it and so on just before the studied it and so on just before the studied it and so on just before the Revolution in um 79 whenever was um and Revolution in um 79 whenever was um and Revolution in um 79 whenever was um and so was able to to um come back with all so was able to to um come back with all so was able to to um come back with all sorts of Reflections about how a very sorts of Reflections about how a very sorts of Reflections about how a very very different Society with its own high very different Society with its own high very different Society with its own high culture and so on had organized itself culture and so on had organized itself culture and so on had organized itself and watching him as a person navigate and watching him as a person navigate and watching him as a person navigate all that I found absolutely fascinating all that I found absolutely fascinating all that I found absolutely fascinating oh wow I never would have thought you oh wow I never would have thought you oh wow I never would have thought you would have picked that one yeah just I would have picked that one yeah just I would have picked that one yeah just I don't know why this comes to mind but don't know why this comes to mind but don't know why this comes to mind but just while I've got you do you have a just while I've got you do you have a just while I've got you do you have a favorite biography of Churchill that you favorite biography of Churchill that you favorite biography of Churchill that you would recommend Churchill um not really would recommend Churchill um not really would recommend Churchill um not really the last full one I read was Roy Jenkins the last full one I read was Roy Jenkins the last full one I read was Roy Jenkins which is very interesting and uh Jenkins which is very interesting and uh Jenkins which is very interesting and uh Jenkins is a good writer um though a bit of a is a good writer um though a bit of a is a good writer um though a bit of a scarless politician in my view um he's scarless politician in my view um he's scarless politician in my view um he's dead now but um I I I always enjoyed dead now but um I I I always enjoyed dead now but um I I I always enjoyed jenkins's remark that with Churchill and jenkins's remark that with Churchill and jenkins's remark that with Churchill and money um if Churchill was running out of money um if Churchill was running out of money um if Churchill was running out of money um his solution was always what money um his solution was always what money um his solution was always what was his solution was never to try to cut was his solution was never to try to cut was his solution was never to try to cut expenditure and always to try and make a expenditure and always to try and make a expenditure and always to try and make a little bit more usually by writing little bit more usually by writing little bit more usually by writing something for the newspapers or whatever something for the newspapers or whatever something for the newspapers or whatever um and when I read that I thought um and when I read that I thought um and when I read that I thought thought I know which side I'm on on this one same thing there you go um you argue one same thing there you go um you argue that with the partisanship and the that with the partisanship and the that with the partisanship and the culture wars and everything that's culture wars and everything that's culture wars and everything that's happening right now in the world

happening right now in the world happening right now in the world democracy is actually in danger uh can democracy is actually in danger uh can democracy is actually in danger uh can you expand on that a little bit well yes you expand on that a little bit well yes you expand on that a little bit well yes I mean the the whole idea of culture I mean the the whole idea of culture I mean the the whole idea of culture wars um has come up really since the wars um has come up really since the wars um has come up really since the 1980s I think and obviously the phrase 1980s I think and obviously the phrase 1980s I think and obviously the phrase was invented if I Remember rightly by was invented if I Remember rightly by was invented if I Remember rightly by James Davis and Hunter um to try to name James Davis and Hunter um to try to name James Davis and Hunter um to try to name the phenomenon of increasing the phenomenon of increasing the phenomenon of increasing polarization particularly in uh the polarization particularly in uh the polarization particularly in uh the United States Society but we have our United States Society but we have our United States Society but we have our own equivalents and most countries will own equivalents and most countries will own equivalents and most countries will and I think this is the kind of Long and I think this is the kind of Long and I think this is the kind of Long Reach of the Enlightenment that the Reach of the Enlightenment that the Reach of the Enlightenment that the enlightenment sort of polarized in the enlightenment sort of polarized in the enlightenment sort of polarized in the 18th century um between those who are so 18th century um between those who are so 18th century um between those who are so uh concerned about Freedom that they uh concerned about Freedom that they uh concerned about Freedom that they wanted to to scrap as much um wanted to to scrap as much um wanted to to scrap as much um dictatorship or autocracy as they could dictatorship or autocracy as they could dictatorship or autocracy as they could and those were so concerned to ward off and those were so concerned to ward off and those were so concerned to ward off Anarchy that they wanted strong Anarchy that they wanted strong Anarchy that they wanted strong leadership and European culture has leadership and European culture has leadership and European culture has oscillated between those two in American oscillated between those two in American oscillated between those two in American culture as well um but it's kind of got culture as well um but it's kind of got culture as well um but it's kind of got worse um and then it's it's picked up worse um and then it's it's picked up worse um and then it's it's picked up and I I think this is partly the and I I think this is partly the and I I think this is partly the internet and television and so on that internet and television and so on that internet and television and so on that it's picked up steam where people are it's picked up steam where people are it's picked up steam where people are unable to separate out issues um when I unable to separate out issues um when I unable to separate out issues um when I go to America it always astonishes me go to America it always astonishes me go to America it always astonishes me that the same people are vitriolic Ally that the same people are vitriolic Ally that the same people are vitriolic Ally opposed to abortion and vitriolically in opposed to abortion and vitriolically in opposed to abortion and vitriolically in favor of everybody carrying guns and favor of everybody carrying guns and favor of everybody carrying guns and being prepared to shoot people at any being prepared to shoot people at any being prepared to shoot people at any time on the one hand um you'd have time on the one hand um you'd have time on the one hand um you'd have thought if they're so concerned about thought if they're so concerned about thought if they're so concerned about preserving human life even in embryo and

preserving human life even in embryo and preserving human life even in embryo and um and vitro Etc then why are they not um and vitro Etc then why are they not um and vitro Etc then why are they not concerned about preserving human life concerned about preserving human life concerned about preserving human life when it comes to say a school shooting when it comes to say a school shooting when it comes to say a school shooting by somebody who's been able to walk into by somebody who's been able to walk into by somebody who's been able to walk into a store um even though mentally um a store um even though mentally um a store um even though mentally um Disturbed and buy a weapon grade um Disturbed and buy a weapon grade um Disturbed and buy a weapon grade um automatic rifle I mean for somebody from automatic rifle I mean for somebody from automatic rifle I mean for somebody from the other side of the Atlantic and I the other side of the Atlantic and I the other side of the Atlantic and I suspect for you in Canada this is just suspect for you in Canada this is just suspect for you in Canada this is just nonsense and but but um if you try to nonsense and but but um if you try to nonsense and but but um if you try to argue on one side or the other people argue on one side or the other people argue on one side or the other people immediately assume that you'll go all immediately assume that you'll go all immediately assume that you'll go all the way down that line that if you're the way down that line that if you're the way down that line that if you're right-wing soall on this issue you will right-wing soall on this issue you will right-wing soall on this issue you will be on all the other issues as well or if be on all the other issues as well or if be on all the other issues as well or if you're leftwing then Etc um and I you're leftwing then Etc um and I you're leftwing then Etc um and I constantly want to say the issues do not constantly want to say the issues do not constantly want to say the issues do not bundle up like that and to think in that bundle up like that and to think in that bundle up like that and to think in that oversimplified that simplistic way is oversimplified that simplistic way is oversimplified that simplistic way is seriously dangerous and I guess it's seriously dangerous and I guess it's seriously dangerous and I guess it's it's a modern version of a phenomenon it's a modern version of a phenomenon it's a modern version of a phenomenon which must have existed all along that which must have existed all along that which must have existed all along that um you know my country right or wrong or um you know my country right or wrong or um you know my country right or wrong or my prince right or wrong whatever that my prince right or wrong whatever that my prince right or wrong whatever that you make a decision as to who you're you make a decision as to who you're you make a decision as to who you're going to follow and then whatever they going to follow and then whatever they going to follow and then whatever they tell you you'll do it because you've tell you you'll do it because you've tell you you'll do it because you've made that decision instead of that part made that decision instead of that part made that decision instead of that part of the maturity of wise um well of the maturity of wise um well of the maturity of wise um well organized societies would be to be able organized societies would be to be able organized societies would be to be able to to to to introduce lots of new ORS and say to introduce lots of new ORS and say to introduce lots of new ORS and say well no we've got to think this one well no we've got to think this one well no we've got to think this one through and maybe there's part of it to through and maybe there's part of it to through and maybe there's part of it to which we want to say yes and part of it which we want to say yes and part of it which we want to say yes and part of it we want to say no etc etc rather than we want to say no etc etc rather than we want to say no etc etc rather than bundling it up so I I think we've um bundling it up so I I think we've um bundling it up so I I think we've um accepted an overs simple analysis of of

accepted an overs simple analysis of of accepted an overs simple analysis of of of far too many things Thomas Jefferson of far too many things Thomas Jefferson of far too many things Thomas Jefferson said that for a democracy to work you said that for a democracy to work you said that for a democracy to work you have to have an educated electorate and have to have an educated electorate and have to have an educated electorate and unfortunately in Britain and in many unfortunately in Britain and in many unfortunately in Britain and in many other countries I look around and I I do other countries I look around and I I do other countries I look around and I I do not see an educated electorate I see not see an educated electorate I see not see an educated electorate I see newspap papers and television stations newspap papers and television stations newspap papers and television stations um beating the drum for a very um beating the drum for a very um beating the drum for a very oversimplified version of of the issues oversimplified version of of the issues oversimplified version of of the issues facing a country and I grieve over that facing a country and I grieve over that facing a country and I grieve over that that's not that's not a good or healthy that's not that's not a good or healthy that's not that's not a good or healthy way to be well there's so much we could way to be well there's so much we could way to be well there's so much we could impact there I mean control abortion and impact there I mean control abortion and impact there I mean control abortion and I agree it's very different uh you know I agree it's very different uh you know I agree it's very different uh you know being a Canadian who spends a lot of being a Canadian who spends a lot of being a Canadian who spends a lot of time in the US I have a lot of American time in the US I have a lot of American time in the US I have a lot of American friends and most them own weapons Etc friends and most them own weapons Etc friends and most them own weapons Etc and most of them are on the more and most of them are on the more and most of them are on the more conservative side and we've had some conservative side and we've had some conservative side and we've had some really interesting conversations because really interesting conversations because really interesting conversations because like you I've never owned a gun I don't like you I've never owned a gun I don't like you I've never owned a gun I don't get the mindset I don't understand it get the mindset I don't understand it get the mindset I don't understand it I'm not judging it I just don't I'm not judging it I just don't I'm not judging it I just don't understand the mindset and I think it's understand the mindset and I think it's understand the mindset and I think it's impossible for Americans to understand impossible for Americans to understand impossible for Americans to understand our mindset it's like well how can you our mindset it's like well how can you our mindset it's like well how can you just walk out there in the wild and what just walk out there in the wild and what just walk out there in the wild and what if you get shot it's like well you've if you get shot it's like well you've if you get shot it's like well you've done pretty well for 75 years and I've done pretty well for 75 years and I've done pretty well for 75 years and I've done okay for 59 you know it's it's just done okay for 59 you know it's it's just done okay for 59 you know it's it's just different it's a very interesting different it's a very interesting different it's a very interesting mentality um and there's much more mentality um and there's much more mentality um and there's much more involved in the culture wars as well why involved in the culture wars as well why involved in the culture wars as well why why do you think Christians have been why do you think Christians have been why do you think Christians have been susceptible to succumb to so many susceptible to succumb to so many susceptible to succumb to so many Christians have succumbed to the culture Christians have succumbed to the culture Christians have succumbed to the culture wars and ideological partisan Simplicity wars and ideological partisan Simplicity wars and ideological partisan Simplicity I I think it's partly because we've just

I I think it's partly because we've just I I think it's partly because we've just never been taught just like in principle never been taught just like in principle never been taught just like in principle we've never been taught about Christian we've never been taught about Christian we've never been taught about Christian political Theology and the the book political Theology and the the book political Theology and the the book which Mike Bird and I have just just which Mike Bird and I have just just which Mike Bird and I have just just written Jesus and the powers is a kind written Jesus and the powers is a kind written Jesus and the powers is a kind of primer in Christian political of primer in Christian political of primer in Christian political Theology and as we were writing it I was Theology and as we were writing it I was Theology and as we were writing it I was aware I don't think I've ever heard a aware I don't think I've ever heard a aware I don't think I've ever heard a sermon series on all this stuff but it's sermon series on all this stuff but it's sermon series on all this stuff but it's sitting there in the Bible and why sitting there in the Bible and why sitting there in the Bible and why haven't we been doing it and I think haven't we been doing it and I think haven't we been doing it and I think it's partly because clergy and preachers it's partly because clergy and preachers it's partly because clergy and preachers have been shy of um appearing to preach have been shy of um appearing to preach have been shy of um appearing to preach politics from the pulpit the come back politics from the pulpit the come back politics from the pulpit the come back to the reasons for that but but also to the reasons for that but but also to the reasons for that but but also because it's just not been on the agenda because it's just not been on the agenda because it's just not been on the agenda and again it's the platonism of the and again it's the platonism of the and again it's the platonism of the Enlightenment which has done this the Enlightenment which has done this the Enlightenment which has done this the idea that uh spiritual reality is idea that uh spiritual reality is idea that uh spiritual reality is upstairs somewhere and quite different upstairs somewhere and quite different upstairs somewhere and quite different from this worldly reality that you know from this worldly reality that you know from this worldly reality that you know we render to Caesar the things that are we render to Caesar the things that are we render to Caesar the things that are Caesars that's our Earth Earthly Affairs Caesars that's our Earth Earthly Affairs Caesars that's our Earth Earthly Affairs and to God the things that are Gods and to God the things that are Gods and to God the things that are Gods that's upstairs stuff that's Heavenly that's upstairs stuff that's Heavenly that's upstairs stuff that's Heavenly that's spiritual that's about praying that's spiritual that's about praying that's spiritual that's about praying it's about going to heaven and Jesus it's about going to heaven and Jesus it's about going to heaven and Jesus agenda of God's kingdom coming on Earth agenda of God's kingdom coming on Earth agenda of God's kingdom coming on Earth as in heaven has simply not been on the as in heaven has simply not been on the as in heaven has simply not been on the radar people don't know that that's what radar people don't know that that's what radar people don't know that that's what the whole Bible is about it's not about the whole Bible is about it's not about the whole Bible is about it's not about how humans go to be with God it's about how humans go to be with God it's about how humans go to be with God it's about how God comes to be with humans and what how God comes to be with humans and what how God comes to be with humans and what happens when he does um and uh the happens when he does um and uh the happens when he does um and uh the church in many generations has wrestled church in many generations has wrestled church in many generations has wrestled hard with this and there's some very um hard with this and there's some very um hard with this and there's some very um fine uh Rich nuanced Christian

fine uh Rich nuanced Christian fine uh Rich nuanced Christian theologians who've wrestled with those theologians who've wrestled with those theologians who've wrestled with those political issues but since the 18th political issues but since the 18th political issues but since the 18th century the western church particularly century the western church particularly century the western church particularly has been taught and has gone along with has been taught and has gone along with has been taught and has gone along with this that that's off limits you don't this that that's off limits you don't this that that's off limits you don't need that we leave that to the need that we leave that to the need that we leave that to the politicians and the social workers and politicians and the social workers and politicians and the social workers and we will teach you the Theology of how to we will teach you the Theology of how to we will teach you the Theology of how to go to heaven and how to say your prayers go to heaven and how to say your prayers go to heaven and how to say your prayers and so on now I of course I believe and so on now I of course I believe and so on now I of course I believe passionately that God will look after passionately that God will look after passionately that God will look after his people after their death and will his people after their death and will his people after their death and will raise them from the dead in the end raise them from the dead in the end raise them from the dead in the end that's a bit different from going to that's a bit different from going to that's a bit different from going to heaven and and also the absolute vital heaven and and also the absolute vital heaven and and also the absolute vital importance of prayer so I'm not saying importance of prayer so I'm not saying importance of prayer so I'm not saying that those are unnecessary or wrong or that those are unnecessary or wrong or that those are unnecessary or wrong or um in themselves superp spiritual what I um in themselves superp spiritual what I um in themselves superp spiritual what I am saying is that in the New Testament am saying is that in the New Testament am saying is that in the New Testament itself rooted as it is in the Old itself rooted as it is in the Old itself rooted as it is in the Old Testament they are integrated with the Testament they are integrated with the Testament they are integrated with the concerns about Justice and mercy in the concerns about Justice and mercy in the concerns about Justice and mercy in the real world about U being um the people real world about U being um the people real world about U being um the people of God who know how to do forgiveness of God who know how to do forgiveness of God who know how to do forgiveness and and Reconciliation and healing and and and Reconciliation and healing and and and Reconciliation and healing and hope in in and for the real world just hope in in and for the real world just hope in in and for the real world just as Jesus went about doing that sort of as Jesus went about doing that sort of as Jesus went about doing that sort of stuff um and we we have allowed stuff um and we we have allowed stuff um and we we have allowed ourselves to drift away from that and to ourselves to drift away from that and to ourselves to drift away from that and to embrace this platonic gospel of oh well embrace this platonic gospel of oh well embrace this platonic gospel of oh well we're out of here this world is not my we're out of here this world is not my we're out of here this world is not my home I'm just passing through therefore home I'm just passing through therefore home I'm just passing through therefore I'm not going to take any trouble to I'm not going to take any trouble to I'm not going to take any trouble to understand let alone to engage with let understand let alone to engage with let understand let alone to engage with let alone to act within the world um and as alone to act within the world um and as alone to act within the world um and as a result that people have sort of a result that people have sort of a result that people have sort of thought oh politics that's a dirty game thought oh politics that's a dirty game thought oh politics that's a dirty game we we don't get involved with that but we we don't get involved with that but we we don't get involved with that but then of course the thing strikes back

then of course the thing strikes back then of course the thing strikes back because when it comes to election time because when it comes to election time because when it comes to election time knee-jerk reactions on certain issues knee-jerk reactions on certain issues knee-jerk reactions on certain issues come through and they dominate the come through and they dominate the come through and they dominate the Christian mindset in a way which if we' Christian mindset in a way which if we' Christian mindset in a way which if we' been thinking about what a Christian been thinking about what a Christian been thinking about what a Christian political theology actually looked like political theology actually looked like political theology actually looked like from the beginning we wouldn't have let from the beginning we wouldn't have let from the beginning we wouldn't have let that that that happen yeah there again a lot to unpack happen yeah there again a lot to unpack happen yeah there again a lot to unpack in that can you can we start here can in that can you can we start here can in that can you can we start here can you give just a quick dictionary you give just a quick dictionary you give just a quick dictionary definition to platonic worldview so that definition to platonic worldview so that definition to platonic worldview so that everybody is on the same page Plato everybody is on the same page Plato everybody is on the same page Plato whose works are up there on the whose works are up there on the whose works are up there on the Shelf Plato basically taught that the Shelf Plato basically taught that the Shelf Plato basically taught that the the the world of reality is a kind of the the world of reality is a kind of the the world of reality is a kind of spiritual upstairs world the world of spiritual upstairs world the world of spiritual upstairs world the world of ideas the world of the forms and that ideas the world of the forms and that ideas the world of the forms and that though the present world is basically though the present world is basically though the present world is basically not a bad place in itself the main thing not a bad place in itself the main thing not a bad place in itself the main thing that we need to do is to learn how to that we need to do is to learn how to that we need to do is to learn how to escape into the other world and one of escape into the other world and one of escape into the other world and one of the great platonists contemporary with the great platonists contemporary with the great platonists contemporary with the New Testament um uh plutar has a the New Testament um uh plutar has a the New Testament um uh plutar has a treaties where he says that we all have treaties where he says that we all have treaties where he says that we all have souls which came from the Heavenly world souls which came from the Heavenly world souls which came from the Heavenly world and are looking forward to going back and are looking forward to going back and are looking forward to going back back there as soon as they're allowed to back there as soon as they're allowed to back there as soon as they're allowed to and that that's really um what life is and that that's really um what life is and that that's really um what life is all about and that of course plutar was all about and that of course plutar was all about and that of course plutar was a philosopher um a politician a a philosopher um a politician a a philosopher um a politician a biographer Etc he was very active in the biographer Etc he was very active in the biographer Etc he was very active in the real world but he didn't what we would real world but he didn't what we would real world but he didn't what we would say is the real world but he didn't say is the real world but he didn't say is the real world but he didn't think that was the ultimately real world think that was the ultimately real world think that was the ultimately real world he thought there was a spiritual World he thought there was a spiritual World he thought there was a spiritual World which was quite different now when I

which was quite different now when I which was quite different now when I first read that in plutar I thought oh first read that in plutar I thought oh first read that in plutar I thought oh that's what most of my Christian friends that's what most of my Christian friends that's what most of my Christian friends think I was going to say that sounds think I was going to say that sounds think I was going to say that sounds like popular Christianity to me exactly like popular Christianity to me exactly like popular Christianity to me exactly and and it really it really really isn't and and it really it really really isn't and and it really it really really isn't um but we have been seduced into that um but we have been seduced into that um but we have been seduced into that really ever since it started to happen really ever since it started to happen really ever since it started to happen in the third and fourth centuries when in the third and fourth centuries when in the third and fourth centuries when um great Christian Scholars like origin um great Christian Scholars like origin um great Christian Scholars like origin were drawing on platonic thought in were drawing on platonic thought in were drawing on platonic thought in order to try to communicate to their order to try to communicate to their order to try to communicate to their generation what the gospel was all about generation what the gospel was all about generation what the gospel was all about but it became more and more dominant but it became more and more dominant but it became more and more dominant until in the high Middle Ages that was until in the high Middle Ages that was until in the high Middle Ages that was the thing how are you going to go to the thing how are you going to go to the thing how are you going to go to heaven um and that's what the reformers heaven um and that's what the reformers heaven um and that's what the reformers are uh going for because they're saying are uh going for because they're saying are uh going for because they're saying here how you do it by being justified by here how you do it by being justified by here how you do it by being justified by faith rather than other alternative faith rather than other alternative faith rather than other alternative models but the question itself was wrong models but the question itself was wrong models but the question itself was wrong the right question is how is God the right question is how is God the right question is how is God becoming King on Earth as in heaven and becoming King on Earth as in heaven and becoming King on Earth as in heaven and once you ask that question which is once you ask that question which is once you ask that question which is jesus' question then you're into all jesus' question then you're into all jesus' question then you're into all sorts of practical real world issues and sorts of practical real world issues and sorts of practical real world issues and and you've written on that and a really and you've written on that and a really and you've written on that and a really good little primer if people want to get good little primer if people want to get good little primer if people want to get um their head in into what you're um their head in into what you're um their head in into what you're talking about in the alternative view talking about in the alternative view talking about in the alternative view the biblical view uh John nberg wrote a the biblical view uh John nberg wrote a the biblical view uh John nberg wrote a book a few years ago based on a lot of book a few years ago based on a lot of book a few years ago based on a lot of Dallas Willard's teaching called Dallas Willard's teaching called Dallas Willard's teaching called eternity is now in session and I think eternity is now in session and I think eternity is now in session and I think you and John would probably agree on a you and John would probably agree on a you and John would probably agree on a lot of those issues that the kingdom is lot of those issues that the kingdom is lot of those issues that the kingdom is somewhat realized so that's just a quick somewhat realized so that's just a quick somewhat realized so that's just a quick note to to leaders listening but here's note to to leaders listening but here's note to to leaders listening but here's the thing you're exactly right in the the thing you're exactly right in the the thing you're exactly right in the same way that our world is polarized

same way that our world is polarized same way that our world is polarized Christianity these days particularly in Christianity these days particularly in Christianity these days particularly in America in the west seems to be America in the west seems to be America in the west seems to be polarized between um a theocracy like polarized between um a theocracy like polarized between um a theocracy like here's the governor we need to here's here's the governor we need to here's here's the governor we need to here's the president here's the Supreme Court the president here's the Supreme Court the president here's the Supreme Court here are the decisions we need like here are the decisions we need like here are the decisions we need like almost teetering on almost teetering on almost teetering on theocracy and head in the sand this theocracy and head in the sand this theocracy and head in the sand this world is all disappearing it doesn't world is all disappearing it doesn't world is all disappearing it doesn't mean anything we're not going to get mean anything we're not going to get mean anything we're not going to get involved in politics because this is involved in politics because this is involved in politics because this is passing away and one day we'll all be in passing away and one day we'll all be in passing away and one day we'll all be in heaven kind of denialism you know if you heaven kind of denialism you know if you heaven kind of denialism you know if you want to look at it that way I'd love for want to look at it that way I'd love for want to look at it that way I'd love for you to comment on um both views and what you to comment on um both views and what you to comment on um both views and what you think of both views and then maybe you think of both views and then maybe you think of both views and then maybe let's get into the alternative that you let's get into the alternative that you let's get into the alternative that you spend a lot of time in your book spend a lot of time in your book spend a lot of time in your book this is this is a whole seminar in this is this is a whole seminar in this is this is a whole seminar in itself but one of the ironies is that itself but one of the ironies is that itself but one of the ironies is that the two positions which you said which the two positions which you said which the two positions which you said which do appear polarized actually seem to do appear polarized actually seem to do appear polarized actually seem to feed off one another so that feed off one another so that feed off one another so that fundamentalist dispensationalists who fundamentalist dispensationalists who fundamentalist dispensationalists who believe um that we're going to be believe um that we're going to be believe um that we're going to be raptured and end up in heaven are often raptured and end up in heaven are often raptured and end up in heaven are often some of the same people who are some of the same people who are some of the same people who are campaigning very hard um on on a campaigning very hard um on on a campaigning very hard um on on a right-wing political ticket it's as right-wing political ticket it's as right-wing political ticket it's as though out of that um they just think oh though out of that um they just think oh though out of that um they just think oh well here is one issue which um uh the well here is one issue which um uh the well here is one issue which um uh the world seems to be getting totally wrong world seems to be getting totally wrong world seems to be getting totally wrong and it it really worries and disturbs us and it it really worries and disturbs us and it it really worries and disturbs us therefore we're going to campaign on therefore we're going to campaign on therefore we're going to campaign on that even if that's illogical in terms that even if that's illogical in terms that even if that's illogical in terms of the um this world is not my home of the um this world is not my home of the um this world is not my home which is why you sometimes get which is why you sometimes get which is why you sometimes get environmental comments like it doesn't environmental comments like it doesn't environmental comments like it doesn't matter what we do to the Earth because matter what we do to the Earth because matter what we do to the Earth because it's all going down anyway and yet we it's all going down anyway and yet we it's all going down anyway and yet we need to elect X to this office exactly I

need to elect X to this office exactly I need to elect X to this office exactly I know that and actually when I was living know that and actually when I was living know that and actually when I was living in Canada which is 35 40 years ago now in Canada which is 35 40 years ago now in Canada which is 35 40 years ago now this was the first time I really met this was the first time I really met this was the first time I really met that well I was doing you'll be that well I was doing you'll be that well I was doing you'll be interested in this I was doing a series interested in this I was doing a series interested in this I was doing a series of of talks for a church in um of of talks for a church in um of of talks for a church in um thunderbay Ontario up at the northwest thunderbay Ontario up at the northwest thunderbay Ontario up at the northwest corner of Lake Superior and I was I was corner of Lake Superior and I was I was corner of Lake Superior and I was I was supposed to be talking about Jesus in supposed to be talking about Jesus in supposed to be talking about Jesus in his historical context most of the his historical context most of the his historical context most of the questions were about ecology because the questions were about ecology because the questions were about ecology because the good people in this church were being good people in this church were being good people in this church were being bombarded by their American friends who bombarded by their American friends who bombarded by their American friends who were saying um don't give us all this were saying um don't give us all this were saying um don't give us all this nonsense about acid rain and so on nonsense about acid rain and so on nonsense about acid rain and so on because um God is going to burn up the because um God is going to burn up the because um God is going to burn up the whole world soon so why should you worry whole world soon so why should you worry whole world soon so why should you worry the important thing is that we're on the the important thing is that we're on the the important thing is that we're on the right side Etc when that happens and right side Etc when that happens and right side Etc when that happens and they were saying we know that's wrong they were saying we know that's wrong they were saying we know that's wrong but how can we argue against it and I'd but how can we argue against it and I'd but how can we argue against it and I'd never really met that before um so it never really met that before um so it never really met that before um so it goes goes quite deep with me from been goes goes quite deep with me from been goes goes quite deep with me from been reflecting on it for for all that time reflecting on it for for all that time reflecting on it for for all that time must been the late 80s I remember acid must been the late 80s I remember acid must been the late 80s I remember acid rain big this that was actually the rain big this that was actually the rain big this that was actually the early ages that was about 8 something early ages that was about 8 something early ages that was about 8 something like that yeah yeah yeah but um uh as I like that yeah yeah yeah but um uh as I like that yeah yeah yeah but um uh as I say I think a lot of the problem has say I think a lot of the problem has say I think a lot of the problem has come from the fact that for years now um come from the fact that for years now um come from the fact that for years now um people in the churches have taken the people in the churches have taken the people in the churches have taken the Bible and preached a spiritual message Bible and preached a spiritual message Bible and preached a spiritual message and not taught people how to think about and not taught people how to think about and not taught people how to think about what matters and so we've then allowed a what matters and so we've then allowed a what matters and so we've then allowed a vacuum into which people have gone with vacuum into which people have gone with vacuum into which people have gone with um well we now need to elect this person um well we now need to elect this person um well we now need to elect this person because he's the Savior who's going to because he's the Savior who's going to because he's the Savior who's going to rescue us from this model now this is a rescue us from this model now this is a rescue us from this model now this is a very American thing and it it it very American thing and it it it very American thing and it it it actually has an analogy in France and

actually has an analogy in France and actually has an analogy in France and both of them go back to the Revolutions both of them go back to the Revolutions both of them go back to the Revolutions of the 18th century and the sort of of the 18th century and the sort of of the 18th century and the sort of sense that if we really get this right sense that if we really get this right sense that if we really get this right we will have a great leader who will we will have a great leader who will we will have a great leader who will take us to the sunlet up lands that we take us to the sunlet up lands that we take us to the sunlet up lands that we all know are really Ours by right and we all know are really Ours by right and we all know are really Ours by right and we just somehow have been missing them just somehow have been missing them just somehow have been missing them recently um we in Britain have not recently um we in Britain have not recently um we in Britain have not tended to think like that not for a long tended to think like that not for a long tended to think like that not for a long time we tend to think in terms of voting time we tend to think in terms of voting time we tend to think in terms of voting for the least worst option and we we for the least worst option and we we for the least worst option and we we don't we don't imagine that by having an don't we don't imagine that by having an don't we don't imagine that by having an election we are few at last going to get election we are few at last going to get election we are few at last going to get good wise sensible creative people we good wise sensible creative people we good wise sensible creative people we may get one or two there are lots of may get one or two there are lots of may get one or two there are lots of perfectly good well educated politicians perfectly good well educated politicians perfectly good well educated politicians but the system as a whole militates but the system as a whole militates but the system as a whole militates against that and we too have our Left against that and we too have our Left against that and we too have our Left Right polarizations which are like dog Right polarizations which are like dog Right polarizations which are like dog whistles for various bits of the whistles for various bits of the whistles for various bits of the community and uh and that's that's community and uh and that's that's community and uh and that's that's deeply unhealthy even though they're deeply unhealthy even though they're deeply unhealthy even though they're often different dog whistles to what often different dog whistles to what often different dog whistles to what you'd find in America so it does get you'd find in America so it does get you'd find in America so it does get very very very confusing yeah so what do you when you confusing yeah so what do you when you confusing yeah so what do you when you when you look at the history because I when you look at the history because I when you look at the history because I think the culture wars are you know from think the culture wars are you know from think the culture wars are you know from the 80s as you said it was maybe the the 80s as you said it was maybe the the 80s as you said it was maybe the rise of the majority in this idea that rise of the majority in this idea that rise of the majority in this idea that we're going to take back uh America we're going to take back uh America we're going to take back uh America Etc were there ingredients in the mix Etc were there ingredients in the mix Etc were there ingredients in the mix that make made and make Christians that make made and make Christians that make made and make Christians particularly susceptible to the culture particularly susceptible to the culture particularly susceptible to the culture wars yeah I guess um it's it's it is wars yeah I guess um it's it's it is wars yeah I guess um it's it's it is such a complex issue and to track the such a complex issue and to track the such a complex issue and to track the roots of it um I wouldn't presume to be

roots of it um I wouldn't presume to be roots of it um I wouldn't presume to be able to go too far with that because I'm able to go too far with that because I'm able to go too far with that because I'm not a a modern sociologist at all not a a modern sociologist at all not a a modern sociologist at all obviously just an observer who's been obviously just an observer who's been obviously just an observer who's been around a c a certain length of time but around a c a certain length of time but around a c a certain length of time but I mean take the abortion issue it seems I mean take the abortion issue it seems I mean take the abortion issue it seems to me that abortion became an issue not to me that abortion became an issue not to me that abortion became an issue not least because people were aware least because people were aware least because people were aware certainly in my country and I think in certainly in my country and I think in certainly in my country and I think in America that abortion was being used as America that abortion was being used as America that abortion was being used as an an easy and inverted commas form of an an easy and inverted commas form of an an easy and inverted commas form of contraception and that that in contraception and that that in contraception and that that in consequence was licensing sexual consequence was licensing sexual consequence was licensing sexual immorality or what used to be thought of immorality or what used to be thought of immorality or what used to be thought of a sexual immorality promiscuity anyway a sexual immorality promiscuity anyway a sexual immorality promiscuity anyway um and so that um the the the desire to um and so that um the the the desire to um and so that um the the the desire to have free abortion went with the desire have free abortion went with the desire have free abortion went with the desire to have free sex um and so people who to have free sex um and so people who to have free sex um and so people who were nervous about sex for whatever were nervous about sex for whatever were nervous about sex for whatever reason and there' be many reasons why reason and there' be many reasons why reason and there' be many reasons why people be nervous about sex um would people be nervous about sex um would people be nervous about sex um would would say oh abortion is wrong D D D D would say oh abortion is wrong D D D D would say oh abortion is wrong D D D D and then produce all the standard and then produce all the standard and then produce all the standard arguments about well here is a picture arguments about well here is a picture arguments about well here is a picture of a fetus in the womb etc etc um of a fetus in the womb etc etc um of a fetus in the womb etc etc um whereas then um conversely that was whereas then um conversely that was whereas then um conversely that was turned into um a power play by powerful turned into um a power play by powerful turned into um a power play by powerful people often powerful men basically people often powerful men basically people often powerful men basically telling women what they could and telling women what they could and telling women what they could and couldn't do um which then you get two of couldn't do um which then you get two of couldn't do um which then you get two of the ideologies of our time Aphrodite the the ideologies of our time Aphrodite the the ideologies of our time Aphrodite the Goddess of erotic love Mars the god of Goddess of erotic love Mars the god of Goddess of erotic love Mars the god of violence and War um who are kind of violence and War um who are kind of violence and War um who are kind of squabbling with each other is this about squabbling with each other is this about squabbling with each other is this about male violence is it about the right to male violence is it about the right to male violence is it about the right to to have a fulfilled erotic existence Etc to have a fulfilled erotic existence Etc to have a fulfilled erotic existence Etc and we haven't named those issues and in and we haven't named those issues and in and we haven't named those issues and in consequence I think we're often Shadow consequence I think we're often Shadow consequence I think we're often Shadow Boxing we're often um you know going um

Boxing we're often um you know going um Boxing we're often um you know going um by implication at this or that that by implication at this or that that by implication at this or that that topic and and certainly the same would topic and and certainly the same would topic and and certainly the same would be true for for um things like the be true for for um things like the be true for for um things like the military um adventurism that we've seen military um adventurism that we've seen military um adventurism that we've seen um uh which you know there's some evil um uh which you know there's some evil um uh which you know there's some evil in the world so let's go and drop bombs in the world so let's go and drop bombs in the world so let's go and drop bombs on it and then it'll all be all right on it and then it'll all be all right on it and then it'll all be all right won't it and you know we we've done that won't it and you know we we've done that won't it and you know we we've done that so often and we simply haven't learned so often and we simply haven't learned so often and we simply haven't learned and when I see people doing things and and when I see people doing things and and when I see people doing things and they're not learning from their mistakes they're not learning from their mistakes they're not learning from their mistakes which is one of the definitions of of which is one of the definitions of of which is one of the definitions of of Insanity by the way um then I think this Insanity by the way um then I think this Insanity by the way um then I think this is being driven by an ideology because is being driven by an ideology because is being driven by an ideology because it is not being driven by reason and and it is not being driven by reason and and it is not being driven by reason and and and there are all sorts of IDE so I and there are all sorts of IDE so I and there are all sorts of IDE so I think until we name the ideologies think until we name the ideologies think until we name the ideologies particularly name the idols that are particularly name the idols that are particularly name the idols that are being worshiped then we're never going being worshiped then we're never going being worshiped then we're never going to be in a good place to to steer our to be in a good place to to steer our to be in a good place to to steer our way through and for me that's one of the way through and for me that's one of the way through and for me that's one of the things I've leared over the years that things I've leared over the years that things I've leared over the years that actually the early Christians were actually the early Christians were actually the early Christians were taught um discipleship 101 you give up taught um discipleship 101 you give up taught um discipleship 101 you give up your idols and worship the living and your idols and worship the living and your idols and worship the living and true God now I was never taught that as true God now I was never taught that as true God now I was never taught that as a child I was taught and we're all a child I was taught and we're all a child I was taught and we're all sinful we're all going to hell sinful we're all going to hell sinful we're all going to hell fortunately Jesus died for us so if we fortunately Jesus died for us so if we fortunately Jesus died for us so if we trust in him we'll go to heaven instead trust in him we'll go to heaven instead trust in him we'll go to heaven instead um and then oh by the way here's how um and then oh by the way here's how um and then oh by the way here's how you're supposed to behave while you're you're supposed to behave while you're you're supposed to behave while you're on the on the way um there was never The on the on the way um there was never The on the on the way um there was never The Logical steps there were never quite Logical steps there were never quite Logical steps there were never quite clear instead of being told here are clear instead of being told here are clear instead of being told here are these Idols which people these Idols which people these Idols which people characteristically worship and they characteristically worship and they characteristically worship and they really mess up your health and the really mess up your health and the really mess up your health and the health of the society you're living in health of the society you're living in health of the society you're living in and here's how worshiping the true God

and here's how worshiping the true God and here's how worshiping the true God enables you to escape those Idols or at enables you to escape those Idols or at enables you to escape those Idols or at least to become part of the uh of the least to become part of the uh of the least to become part of the uh of the battle that Jesus is fighting to defeat battle that Jesus is fighting to defeat battle that Jesus is fighting to defeat all the enemies um according to Paul in all the enemies um according to Paul in all the enemies um according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 the battle is ongoing 1 Corinthians 15 the battle is ongoing 1 Corinthians 15 the battle is ongoing even though the initial victory was one even though the initial victory was one even though the initial victory was one on the cross and once you start seeing on the cross and once you start seeing on the cross and once you start seeing the world like that all sorts of things the world like that all sorts of things the world like that all sorts of things shake down differently and when I look shake down differently and when I look shake down differently and when I look at Western Christianity including my own at Western Christianity including my own at Western Christianity including my own Anglican tradition I just don't see Anglican tradition I just don't see Anglican tradition I just don't see these issues being addressed but the these issues being addressed but the these issues being addressed but the Bible not least the New Testament is Bible not least the New Testament is Bible not least the New Testament is saying please please will you think in saying please please will you think in saying please please will you think in these categories rather than those these categories rather than those these categories rather than those rather second rate derived ones which rather second rate derived ones which rather second rate derived ones which have been popular in Western have been popular in Western have been popular in Western Christianity now for a long time so you Christianity now for a long time so you Christianity now for a long time so you argue in your book that Christianity is argue in your book that Christianity is argue in your book that Christianity is political but I don't think you're political but I don't think you're political but I don't think you're arguing that it's uh moving toward a arguing that it's uh moving toward a arguing that it's uh moving toward a theocracy and a theocracy basically theocracy and a theocracy basically theocracy and a theocracy basically means you know people in faith with a means you know people in faith with a means you know people in faith with a religious agenda with the state right in religious agenda with the state right in religious agenda with the state right in other words I'm going to impose my other words I'm going to impose my other words I'm going to impose my morality on the nation um what is wrong morality on the nation um what is wrong morality on the nation um what is wrong with theocracy or what is right about it with theocracy or what is right about it with theocracy or what is right about it if there's anything right about it I if there's anything right about it I if there's anything right about it I mean from one point of view if you mean from one point of view if you mean from one point of view if you believe that uh God is King and Jesus is believe that uh God is King and Jesus is believe that uh God is King and Jesus is Lord then theocracy technically is what Lord then theocracy technically is what Lord then theocracy technically is what we've got ever since the Ascension of we've got ever since the Ascension of we've got ever since the Ascension of Jesus there is now God's Messiah at the Jesus there is now God's Messiah at the Jesus there is now God's Messiah at the Helm of the universe sending out his Helm of the universe sending out his Helm of the universe sending out his people into the world but then comes the

people into the world but then comes the people into the world but then comes the trick sending out his people to do what trick sending out his people to do what trick sending out his people to do what so many people think that if God was so many people think that if God was so many people think that if God was really in charge well when I look out of really in charge well when I look out of really in charge well when I look out of the window here I don't at the moment the window here I don't at the moment the window here I don't at the moment see any violence going on outside in the see any violence going on outside in the see any violence going on outside in the street but we know that in the great street but we know that in the great street but we know that in the great world out there there are all sorts of world out there there are all sorts of world out there there are all sorts of violent and wicked things happening and violent and wicked things happening and violent and wicked things happening and people say well if God really was King people say well if God really was King people say well if God really was King if Jesus really was Lord that wouldn't if Jesus really was Lord that wouldn't if Jesus really was Lord that wouldn't be happening would it the answer is no be happening would it the answer is no be happening would it the answer is no we haven't stopped to think what it we haven't stopped to think what it we haven't stopped to think what it means that Jesus is Lord as opposed to means that Jesus is Lord as opposed to means that Jesus is Lord as opposed to Caesar or Herod or or some dictator Caesar or Herod or or some dictator Caesar or Herod or or some dictator Jesus is not a dictator like that this Jesus is not a dictator like that this Jesus is not a dictator like that this is where the Sermon on the Mount is so is where the Sermon on the Mount is so is where the Sermon on the Mount is so important people have taken the Sermon important people have taken the Sermon important people have taken the Sermon on the Mount and made it very much about on the Mount and made it very much about on the Mount and made it very much about me and my behavior fine it is about me me and my behavior fine it is about me me and my behavior fine it is about me and my behavior but it's also about this and my behavior but it's also about this and my behavior but it's also about this is how the kingdom comes not by God is how the kingdom comes not by God is how the kingdom comes not by God sending in the tanks but by God sending sending in the tanks but by God sending sending in the tanks but by God sending in the meek and the mourners and the in the meek and the mourners and the in the meek and the mourners and the hungry for justice people and the hungry for justice people and the hungry for justice people and the peacemakers and the pure in heart etc peacemakers and the pure in heart etc peacemakers and the pure in heart etc etc by the time the bullies and the bad etc by the time the bullies and the bad etc by the time the bullies and the bad guys have woken up the meek and the guys have woken up the meek and the guys have woken up the meek and the mourners and the hungry for justice mourners and the hungry for justice mourners and the hungry for justice people have built schools schools and people have built schools schools and people have built schools schools and hospitals and are looking after the poor hospitals and are looking after the poor hospitals and are looking after the poor and have transformed the world and and have transformed the world and and have transformed the world and actually they have transformed the world actually they have transformed the world actually they have transformed the world as Tom Holland argues in his recent book as Tom Holland argues in his recent book as Tom Holland argues in his recent book Dominion there's been an enormous sea Dominion there's been an enormous sea Dominion there's been an enormous sea change in global morality over the last change in global morality over the last change in global morality over the last 2,000 years if you compare today's 2,000 years if you compare today's 2,000 years if you compare today's attitudes across much of the world with attitudes across much of the world with attitudes across much of the world with say the normal attitudes in the Roman say the normal attitudes in the Roman say the normal attitudes in the Roman Empire and and its uh and its cognates Empire and and its uh and its cognates Empire and and its uh and its cognates at the time there's so many things such at the time there's so many things such at the time there's so many things such as slavery such as exposing infants who

as slavery such as exposing infants who as slavery such as exposing infants who you don't want just leaving them out on you don't want just leaving them out on you don't want just leaving them out on the street for the Wolves to take or the street for the Wolves to take or the street for the Wolves to take or whatever that that was that was the whatever that that was that was the whatever that that was that was the normal common thing in the ancient world normal common thing in the ancient world normal common thing in the ancient world very very few people do it today that's very very few people do it today that's very very few people do it today that's it's a great example where there has it's a great example where there has it's a great example where there has been change but this is because the way been change but this is because the way been change but this is because the way that the kingdom of God comes is not that the kingdom of God comes is not that the kingdom of God comes is not through what people think of as through what people think of as through what people think of as theocracy I.E mad clerics who think they theocracy I.E mad clerics who think they theocracy I.E mad clerics who think they have a hotline to Heaven telling have a hotline to Heaven telling have a hotline to Heaven telling everyone else what they must do and everyone else what they must do and everyone else what they must do and punishing them if they don't the the the punishing them if they don't the the the punishing them if they don't the the the agenda is the psalm 72 agenda which agenda is the psalm 72 agenda which agenda is the psalm 72 agenda which Jesus is following through which is that Jesus is following through which is that Jesus is following through which is that the primary concern is with the poor and the primary concern is with the poor and the primary concern is with the poor and the widows and the orphans and the the widows and the orphans and the the widows and the orphans and the vulnerable and the stranger and the vulnerable and the stranger and the vulnerable and the stranger and the homeless etc etc and if we are looking homeless etc etc and if we are looking homeless etc etc and if we are looking after them um then all sorts of other after them um then all sorts of other after them um then all sorts of other things in society will organize things in society will organize things in society will organize themselves in a better way but that is themselves in a better way but that is themselves in a better way but that is not something that can be dictated um by not something that can be dictated um by not something that can be dictated um by powerful people sitting in a government powerful people sitting in a government powerful people sitting in a government house enforcing things and and so house enforcing things and and so house enforcing things and and so um I do believe in theocracy but I um I do believe in theocracy but I um I do believe in theocracy but I believe in a different Theos a different believe in a different Theos a different believe in a different Theos a different God from the god that most people think God from the god that most people think God from the god that most people think of when they hear the word theocracy of when they hear the word theocracy of when they hear the word theocracy they think of God as a big bully who's they think of God as a big bully who's they think of God as a big bully who's going to come and stamp hard on you um going to come and stamp hard on you um going to come and stamp hard on you um instead of which I believe in the god I instead of which I believe in the god I instead of which I believe in the god I see in Jesus Jesus didn't stamp hard on see in Jesus Jesus didn't stamp hard on see in Jesus Jesus didn't stamp hard on people Jesus went about celebrating the people Jesus went about celebrating the people Jesus went about celebrating the kingdom with all the wrong people kingdom with all the wrong people kingdom with all the wrong people actually and when we think what would actually and when we think what would actually and when we think what would that look like if we tried to do that

that look like if we tried to do that that look like if we tried to do that well it it might look more like the well it it might look more like the well it it might look more like the rather confused liberal democracies that rather confused liberal democracies that rather confused liberal democracies that some of us have than the dictatorships some of us have than the dictatorships some of us have than the dictatorships of left or right which have been tried of left or right which have been tried of left or right which have been tried over the last few centuries and have over the last few centuries and have over the last few centuries and have shown how threadbear they are well it's shown how threadbear they are well it's shown how threadbear they are well it's interesting you know Jesus had moments interesting you know Jesus had moments interesting you know Jesus had moments where people wanted to make him King he where people wanted to make him King he where people wanted to make him King he you know one of his disciples if my new you know one of his disciples if my new you know one of his disciples if my new testament is right you know the zealots testament is right you know the zealots testament is right you know the zealots Simon the zealot that was a political Simon the zealot that was a political Simon the zealot that was a political movement that thought to take back the movement that thought to take back the movement that thought to take back the throne from Rome in part was it not or throne from Rome in part was it not or throne from Rome in part was it not or did I get that wrong no yeah the word did I get that wrong no yeah the word did I get that wrong no yeah the word Zealot which is a a tricky word in the Zealot which is a a tricky word in the Zealot which is a a tricky word in the first century because there's only first century because there's only first century because there's only actually a political party called the actually a political party called the actually a political party called the zealots um in the 50s and 60s but in the zealots um in the 50s and 60s but in the zealots um in the 50s and 60s but in the time of Jesus in the 20s and 30s it's a time of Jesus in the 20s and 30s it's a time of Jesus in the 20s and 30s it's a a more generalized word for for people a more generalized word for for people a more generalized word for for people who U believe in being zealous for God who U believe in being zealous for God who U believe in being zealous for God zealous for the law zealous for the zealous for the law zealous for the zealous for the law zealous for the temple and zealous is something you do temple and zealous is something you do temple and zealous is something you do with a with a sword or a dagger not just with a with a sword or a dagger not just with a with a sword or a dagger not just something that's going on in your head something that's going on in your head something that's going on in your head or your heart um so he may not be part or your heart um so he may not be part or your heart um so he may not be part of a political party but he's certainly of a political party but he's certainly of a political party but he's certainly on that side of of things and many of on that side of of things and many of on that side of of things and many of the Pharisees of jesus' day were not the Pharisees of jesus' day were not the Pharisees of jesus' day were not just purists in terms of private just purists in terms of private just purists in terms of private religious practice but we're purist in religious practice but we're purist in religious practice but we're purist in terms of we want this country we are terms of we want this country we are terms of we want this country we are God's people to be free of pagan God's people to be free of pagan God's people to be free of pagan influence and to be Masters in our own influence and to be Masters in our own influence and to be Masters in our own house and so on so there's a lot going house and so on so there's a lot going house and so on so there's a lot going on there which people today just don't on there which people today just don't on there which people today just don't get because we don't that's very similar get because we don't that's very similar get because we don't that's very similar to what we're seeing today in some of

to what we're seeing today in some of to what we're seeing today in some of the dialogue actually absolutely and and the dialogue actually absolutely and and the dialogue actually absolutely and and from some points of view you know the from some points of view you know the from some points of view you know the Pharisees believed that religion was far Pharisees believed that religion was far Pharisees believed that religion was far too important to be only happening in too important to be only happening in too important to be only happening in the temple they wanted it to come right the temple they wanted it to come right the temple they wanted it to come right down to home life school life shop life down to home life school life shop life down to home life school life shop life etc etc which sounds to us like a noble etc etc which sounds to us like a noble etc etc which sounds to us like a noble ideal until they start to say right ideal until they start to say right ideal until they start to say right we're going to enforce this um and the we're going to enforce this um and the we're going to enforce this um and the the last great kingdom of God movement the last great kingdom of God movement the last great kingdom of God movement in the 130s ad under Simeon Ben bar was in the 130s ad under Simeon Ben bar was in the 130s ad under Simeon Ben bar was very much about enforcing it um and very much about enforcing it um and very much about enforcing it um and getting everyone on board and and being getting everyone on board and and being getting everyone on board and and being pretty Fierce with those who are being pretty Fierce with those who are being pretty Fierce with those who are being disloyal um so but but that was disloyal um so but but that was disloyal um so but but that was emphatically political but actually the emphatically political but actually the emphatically political but actually the gospel is about society and how Society gospel is about society and how Society gospel is about society and how Society works and the Greek word polace from works and the Greek word polace from works and the Greek word polace from which we get political simply means the which we get political simply means the which we get political simply means the city how is the city working now if you city how is the city working now if you city how is the city working now if you say if you're a Christian I don't care say if you're a Christian I don't care say if you're a Christian I don't care how the city is working I'm saying my how the city is working I'm saying my how the city is working I'm saying my prayers and I'm going to heaven then you prayers and I'm going to heaven then you prayers and I'm going to heaven then you just haven't heard the primary call of just haven't heard the primary call of just haven't heard the primary call of the Gospel which is it's time for God to the Gospel which is it's time for God to the Gospel which is it's time for God to become king and so if you then look out become king and so if you then look out become king and so if you then look out of the window and see bad things of the window and see bad things of the window and see bad things happening you might want to say um we happening you might want to say um we happening you might want to say um we need to team up with everyone else who need to team up with everyone else who need to team up with everyone else who thinks there are bad things happening thinks there are bad things happening thinks there are bad things happening and we need to link arms and say our and we need to link arms and say our and we need to link arms and say our prayers and see what can be done to sort prayers and see what can be done to sort prayers and see what can be done to sort this out but to be done wisely and this out but to be done wisely and this out but to be done wisely and humbly and um with shrewd um thinking humbly and um with shrewd um thinking humbly and um with shrewd um thinking through of the issues rather than let's through of the issues rather than let's through of the issues rather than let's send in the tanks and and kill all the send in the tanks and and kill all the send in the tanks and and kill all the bad people um so back to The Sermon on

bad people um so back to The Sermon on bad people um so back to The Sermon on the Mount again it's about being hungry the Mount again it's about being hungry the Mount again it's about being hungry for justice and the meek and the for justice and the meek and the for justice and the meek and the mourners and I I never Tire of reminding mourners and I I never Tire of reminding mourners and I I never Tire of reminding people whatever the ethics are in say people whatever the ethics are in say people whatever the ethics are in say Paul's letter to the Ephesians chapters Paul's letter to the Ephesians chapters Paul's letter to the Ephesians chapters 4 and five and so on and there's some 4 and five and so on and there's some 4 and five and so on and there's some wonderful ethical bits there it begins wonderful ethical bits there it begins wonderful ethical bits there it begins with a Summons to humility and with a Summons to humility and with a Summons to humility and gentleness and meekness and the minute a gentleness and meekness and the minute a gentleness and meekness and the minute a Christian starts getting strident and Christian starts getting strident and Christian starts getting strident and starts saying we've got to do this and starts saying we've got to do this and starts saying we've got to do this and if you don't then you're out of line if you don't then you're out of line if you don't then you're out of line then hang on hang on hang on the number then hang on hang on hang on the number then hang on hang on hang on the number one ethical command is humility and one ethical command is humility and one ethical command is humility and meekness now what's that going to look meekness now what's that going to look meekness now what's that going to look like it may well look like making space like it may well look like making space like it may well look like making space for other people's points of view and for other people's points of view and for other people's points of view and then finding out how to speak the truth then finding out how to speak the truth then finding out how to speak the truth in love and how to navigate one's way in love and how to navigate one's way in love and how to navigate one's way towards a more mature and seasoned towards a more mature and seasoned towards a more mature and seasoned wisdom rather than just assuming that wisdom rather than just assuming that wisdom rather than just assuming that we've got all the truth and we're coming we've got all the truth and we're coming we've got all the truth and we're coming straight through that's a really helpful straight through that's a really helpful straight through that's a really helpful distinction I would love to know before distinction I would love to know before distinction I would love to know before we get into the alternative a little bit we get into the alternative a little bit we get into the alternative a little bit more uh what in your view looking more uh what in your view looking more uh what in your view looking through history happens when Christians through history happens when Christians through history happens when Christians take up the sword when they take up take up the sword when they take up take up the sword when they take up Force when they try to occupy office and Force when they try to occupy office and Force when they try to occupy office and like I'm going to enforce this as the like I'm going to enforce this as the like I'm going to enforce this as the Pharisees did Tom Holland talks about Pharisees did Tom Holland talks about Pharisees did Tom Holland talks about this in Dominion um Jordan Peterson has this in Dominion um Jordan Peterson has this in Dominion um Jordan Peterson has lectured on it numerously you know many lectured on it numerously you know many lectured on it numerously you know many times what happens when Christians say times what happens when Christians say times what happens when Christians say they don't follow meekness and humility they don't follow meekness and humility they don't follow meekness and humility but they take up the sword they take up but they take up the sword they take up but they take up the sword they take up power and they play the power game yeah power and they play the power game yeah power and they play the power game yeah I

I I mean that has been a disaster again and mean that has been a disaster again and mean that has been a disaster again and again Jesus said those who take the again Jesus said those who take the again Jesus said those who take the sword will perish by the sword um this sword will perish by the sword um this sword will perish by the sword um this is not to say that I can work my way is not to say that I can work my way is not to say that I can work my way through the last 2,000 years of history through the last 2,000 years of history through the last 2,000 years of history and show that every time the Christians and show that every time the Christians and show that every time the Christians have done this it has always ended badly have done this it has always ended badly have done this it has always ended badly but basically if you fight far with fire but basically if you fight far with fire but basically if you fight far with fire it's always fire that's going to win and it's always fire that's going to win and it's always fire that's going to win and um there's I don't know if you remember um there's I don't know if you remember um there's I don't know if you remember about um 30 years ago there was a movie about um 30 years ago there was a movie about um 30 years ago there was a movie called The Mission about the Jesuit called The Mission about the Jesuit called The Mission about the Jesuit mission in Latin America Jeremy Irons is mission in Latin America Jeremy Irons is mission in Latin America Jeremy Irons is that it that's that's right absolutely that it that's that's right absolutely that it that's that's right absolutely absolutely um it was one of David absolutely um it was one of David absolutely um it was one of David putnam's great films along with Chariots putnam's great films along with Chariots putnam's great films along with Chariots of far and uh the the the irony of that of far and uh the the the irony of that of far and uh the the the irony of that was the question here is a great work of was the question here is a great work of was the question here is a great work of God here are people who are have come to God here are people who are have come to God here are people who are have come to love God who are serving him who are love God who are serving him who are love God who are serving him who are singing hymns who are organizing their singing hymns who are organizing their singing hymns who are organizing their society in a whole new way um to reflect society in a whole new way um to reflect society in a whole new way um to reflect the gospel and here come some soldiers the gospel and here come some soldiers the gospel and here come some soldiers who want to stamp on it because it's bad who want to stamp on it because it's bad who want to stamp on it because it's bad for bad for business bad for trade in for bad for business bad for trade in for bad for business bad for trade in the colonies Etc do you resist those the colonies Etc do you resist those the colonies Etc do you resist those soldiers with Armed Force or do you say soldiers with Armed Force or do you say soldiers with Armed Force or do you say um okay we believe in peace we believe um okay we believe in peace we believe um okay we believe in peace we believe in in loving one's enemies therefore if in in loving one's enemies therefore if in in loving one's enemies therefore if you need to come and kill us come and you need to come and kill us come and you need to come and kill us come and kill us and I think the movie ends kill us and I think the movie ends kill us and I think the movie ends without resolving that question but without resolving that question but without resolving that question but simply saying here is the dilemma guys simply saying here is the dilemma guys simply saying here is the dilemma guys what are you going to do about it and what are you going to do about it and what are you going to do about it and and in all sorts of ways we are still and in all sorts of ways we are still and in all sorts of ways we are still faced with that dilemma um with the wars

faced with that dilemma um with the wars faced with that dilemma um with the wars and rumors of wars that are going on in and rumors of wars that are going on in and rumors of wars that are going on in our world right now so if Christianity our world right now so if Christianity our world right now so if Christianity is political if our faith is political is political if our faith is political is political if our faith is political but it's not about violence or but it's not about violence or but it's not about violence or overtaking or Force what is it about overtaking or Force what is it about overtaking or Force what is it about what does that look like well for the what does that look like well for the what does that look like well for the early Christians it was about the early Christians it was about the early Christians it was about the establishment of micro societies called establishment of micro societies called establishment of micro societies called churches um in the different cities and churches um in the different cities and churches um in the different cities and towns and uh that inevitably was a towns and uh that inevitably was a towns and uh that inevitably was a political Act and the ancient Romans political Act and the ancient Romans political Act and the ancient Romans were very suspicious about people were very suspicious about people were very suspicious about people meeting in small groups or or or meeting in small groups or or or meeting in small groups or or or middle-sized groups because they knew middle-sized groups because they knew middle-sized groups because they knew that that could ferment Revolution and that that could ferment Revolution and that that could ferment Revolution and the early Christians were perceived as the early Christians were perceived as the early Christians were perceived as some sort of Revolution because who are some sort of Revolution because who are some sort of Revolution because who are these people where they've got men and these people where they've got men and these people where they've got men and women in the same room they've got women in the same room they've got women in the same room they've got slaves in there as well as Free People slaves in there as well as Free People slaves in there as well as Free People they've got people from different ethnic they've got people from different ethnic they've got people from different ethnic backgrounds they're all meeting together backgrounds they're all meeting together backgrounds they're all meeting together and calling each other sister and and calling each other sister and and calling each other sister and brother what is going on we're very brother what is going on we're very brother what is going on we're very suspicious about this and so you see the suspicious about this and so you see the suspicious about this and so you see the Roman World simply not knowing but then Roman World simply not knowing but then Roman World simply not knowing but then here's the thing the church is called to here's the thing the church is called to here's the thing the church is called to act it's one of my current slogans act it's one of my current slogans act it's one of my current slogans church is called to act as a small church is called to act as a small church is called to act as a small working model of New Creation we believe working model of New Creation we believe working model of New Creation we believe that God is doing and will do New that God is doing and will do New that God is doing and will do New Creation that one day the Earth will be Creation that one day the Earth will be Creation that one day the Earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the full of the knowledge of the Lord as the full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the Sea and the church is waters cover the Sea and the church is waters cover the Sea and the church is to be modeling what that looks like like to be modeling what that looks like like to be modeling what that looks like like now not privately not holding it to now not privately not holding it to now not privately not holding it to itself because the whole point about itself because the whole point about itself because the whole point about jesus' way of life is that it's outward

jesus' way of life is that it's outward jesus' way of life is that it's outward looking it's it's and and the early looking it's it's and and the early looking it's it's and and the early church spread in the first two or three church spread in the first two or three church spread in the first two or three centuries even though they were trying centuries even though they were trying centuries even though they were trying to stamp the Romans were trying to stamp to stamp the Romans were trying to stamp to stamp the Romans were trying to stamp it out because they were caring for the it out because they were caring for the it out because they were caring for the old lady down the street who had lost old lady down the street who had lost old lady down the street who had lost her husband and now her son and was her husband and now her son and was her husband and now her son and was completely destitute they were caring completely destitute they were caring completely destitute they were caring for the children who other people had for the children who other people had for the children who other people had thrown out on the street they would take thrown out on the street they would take thrown out on the street they would take them in and give them education and so them in and give them education and so them in and give them education and so on and so for so the church by being on and so for so the church by being on and so for so the church by being itself was doing an inevitably political itself was doing an inevitably political itself was doing an inevitably political act by showing up the systems that they act by showing up the systems that they act by showing up the systems that they were living in as being dehumanizing and were living in as being dehumanizing and were living in as being dehumanizing and by modeling a way of by modeling a way of by modeling a way of rehumanizing um Society from these rehumanizing um Society from these rehumanizing um Society from these little cells outwards and um it's not little cells outwards and um it's not little cells outwards and um it's not what everyone means by politics but what everyone means by politics but what everyone means by politics but sooner or later and we we argue this in sooner or later and we we argue this in sooner or later and we we argue this in the book when you then start to find the book when you then start to find the book when you then start to find that a local Governor is coming to you that a local Governor is coming to you that a local Governor is coming to you and saying um you're you're really doing and saying um you're you're really doing and saying um you're you're really doing some good stuff here and you're helping some good stuff here and you're helping some good stuff here and you're helping some of the poor people in some of the some of the poor people in some of the some of the poor people in some of the worst areas of our city um could could worst areas of our city um could could worst areas of our city um could could we work together on some of these we work together on some of these we work together on some of these projects then if the church says oh no projects then if the church says oh no projects then if the church says oh no no we can't do anything with you then no we can't do anything with you then no we can't do anything with you then that that's just wimping out we've got that that's just wimping out we've got that that's just wimping out we've got to be able to say it's one another of my to be able to say it's one another of my to be able to say it's one another of my slogans collaborate without compromise slogans collaborate without compromise slogans collaborate without compromise and I've seen this when I was working as and I've seen this when I was working as and I've seen this when I was working as a bishop um a lot of local secular a bishop um a lot of local secular a bishop um a lot of local secular organizations who want to work with the organizations who want to work with the organizations who want to work with the church because they see the church is's church because they see the church is's church because they see the church is's doing good stuff um but then figuring doing good stuff um but then figuring doing good stuff um but then figuring out how to collaborate but then knowing out how to collaborate but then knowing out how to collaborate but then knowing where the red lines are when people say where the red lines are when people say where the red lines are when people say and now we want to do this and this and

and now we want to do this and this and and now we want to do this and this and then the church says well no actually then the church says well no actually then the church says well no actually then the church hasn't been very good at then the church hasn't been very good at then the church hasn't been very good at that and we've tended to be either full that and we've tended to be either full that and we've tended to be either full in and getting our hands too dirty or in and getting our hands too dirty or in and getting our hands too dirty or full out and keeping our noses so clean full out and keeping our noses so clean full out and keeping our noses so clean that they're not doing any good do you that they're not doing any good do you that they're not doing any good do you see what I mean I I do yeah yeah so um see what I mean I I do yeah yeah so um see what I mean I I do yeah yeah so um is it too simplistic to say you a bottom is it too simplistic to say you a bottom is it too simplistic to say you a bottom Up Revolution than a top down Revolution Up Revolution than a top down Revolution Up Revolution than a top down Revolution is is is that too simplistic it is it is is is is that too simplistic it is it is is is is that too simplistic it is it is really a bottomup revolution of course really a bottomup revolution of course really a bottomup revolution of course if then the emperor says I want to if then the emperor says I want to if then the emperor says I want to become a Christian um then which become a Christian um then which become a Christian um then which happened which happened then the church happened which happened then the church happened which happened then the church would be very foolish to say no no no would be very foolish to say no no no would be very foolish to say no no no please go on persecuting us because that please go on persecuting us because that please go on persecuting us because that makes us feel so much more authentic um makes us feel so much more authentic um makes us feel so much more authentic um you know that that would just be crazy you know that that would just be crazy you know that that would just be crazy but but then the church has to say to but but then the church has to say to but but then the church has to say to the emperor okay but we will give you the emperor okay but we will give you the emperor okay but we will give you some ground rules for how this is going some ground rules for how this is going some ground rules for how this is going to work um and you can see that in the to work um and you can see that in the to work um and you can see that in the fourth and fifth centuries and so on fourth and fifth centuries and so on fourth and fifth centuries and so on where sometimes Emperors were where sometimes Emperors were where sometimes Emperors were excommunicated um including on one excommunicated um including on one excommunicated um including on one famous occasion for um practicing the famous occasion for um practicing the famous occasion for um practicing the death penalty and and Bishops who say death penalty and and Bishops who say death penalty and and Bishops who say I'm sorry um you may be a Christian but I'm sorry um you may be a Christian but I'm sorry um you may be a Christian but that's that's completely out of line we that's that's completely out of line we that's that's completely out of line we don't do that in the kingdom of God um don't do that in the kingdom of God um don't do that in the kingdom of God um and of course that raises all sorts of and of course that raises all sorts of and of course that raises all sorts of difficulties because well that's the difficulties because well that's the difficulties because well that's the ultimate punishment for people that we ultimate punishment for people that we ultimate punishment for people that we really think are kid what we're going to really think are kid what we're going to really think are kid what we're going to do now and taken the church 2,000 years do now and taken the church 2,000 years do now and taken the church 2,000 years to scratch its head and still not really to scratch its head and still not really to scratch its head and still not really know um how to advise the society to to

know um how to advise the society to to know um how to advise the society to to to to cope with hardened criminals to to cope with hardened criminals to to cope with hardened criminals whatever um but but but this is this is whatever um but but but this is this is whatever um but but but this is this is the thing and the central argument the thing and the central argument the thing and the central argument really of this book that I've done with really of this book that I've done with really of this book that I've done with Mike bird um that God wants his world to Mike bird um that God wants his world to Mike bird um that God wants his world to be wisely ordered through human be wisely ordered through human be wisely ordered through human governance this is the that people just governance this is the that people just governance this is the that people just can't get their heads around they think can't get their heads around they think can't get their heads around they think either God must be doing it all and either God must be doing it all and either God must be doing it all and we're all passive or some human must be we're all passive or some human must be we're all passive or some human must be doing it all and getting more and more doing it all and getting more and more doing it all and getting more and more arrogant and the answer is no right from arrogant and the answer is no right from arrogant and the answer is no right from Genesis 1 God Wants to Rule his world Genesis 1 God Wants to Rule his world Genesis 1 God Wants to Rule his world through wise human beings who are through wise human beings who are through wise human beings who are attentive to God's creative and new attentive to God's creative and new attentive to God's creative and new creative purposes and who are creative purposes and who are creative purposes and who are particularly attentive Psalm 72 again to particularly attentive Psalm 72 again to particularly attentive Psalm 72 again to the needs of the poor and the vulnerable the needs of the poor and the vulnerable the needs of the poor and the vulnerable and the marginalized and who will work and the marginalized and who will work and the marginalized and who will work with the grain of the kingdom of God in with the grain of the kingdom of God in with the grain of the kingdom of God in that respect and here's the thing God that respect and here's the thing God that respect and here's the thing God wants his world to be run by humans but wants his world to be run by humans but wants his world to be run by humans but it's the church's job to hold those it's the church's job to hold those it's the church's job to hold those humans to account and you see this again humans to account and you see this again humans to account and you see this again and again in the New Testament with and again in the New Testament with and again in the New Testament with Jesus um holding rulers to account in Jesus um holding rulers to account in Jesus um holding rulers to account in the Acts of the Apostles Paul is doing the Acts of the Apostles Paul is doing the Acts of the Apostles Paul is doing it all the time you know he tells the it all the time you know he tells the it all the time you know he tells the Philippian magistrates sorry you're out Philippian magistrates sorry you're out Philippian magistrates sorry you're out of line you need to do it like this and of line you need to do it like this and of line you need to do it like this and they say oh yeah you're right um and he they say oh yeah you're right um and he they say oh yeah you're right um and he goes on doing it um not a great way to goes on doing it um not a great way to goes on doing it um not a great way to make friends and influence people but it make friends and influence people but it make friends and influence people but it is the task of the church to hold the is the task of the church to hold the is the task of the church to hold the authorities to account we have backed

authorities to account we have backed authorities to account we have backed right off from that in the last three right off from that in the last three right off from that in the last three centuries in the Western World we've centuries in the Western World we've centuries in the Western World we've left it to the newspapers um to to be left it to the newspapers um to to be left it to the newspapers um to to be the main critics of the politicians and the main critics of the politicians and the main critics of the politicians and look where that's got us um and and as a look where that's got us um and and as a look where that's got us um and and as a result the church itself has lost the result the church itself has lost the result the church itself has lost the art of doing it and the church then art of doing it and the church then art of doing it and the church then often simply reflects the the already often simply reflects the the already often simply reflects the the already polarized society that the newspapers polarized society that the newspapers polarized society that the newspapers and others have created so there's and others have created so there's and others have created so there's there's a lot of ground to make up but there's a lot of ground to make up but there's a lot of ground to make up but that's the ideal God wants his world to that's the ideal God wants his world to that's the ideal God wants his world to be run through wise human beings but God be run through wise human beings but God be run through wise human beings but God wants to hold them to account and he wants to hold them to account and he wants to hold them to account and he will use a wise humble um creative new will use a wise humble um creative new will use a wise humble um creative new creational church to do that holding to creational church to do that holding to creational church to do that holding to account that's perhaps the most Central account that's perhaps the most Central account that's perhaps the most Central and important thing that I'm likely to and important thing that I'm likely to and important thing that I'm likely to say to you today no and that's a really say to you today no and that's a really say to you today no and that's a really important ethic I think and goal and and important ethic I think and goal and and important ethic I think and goal and and I would encourage people to get the book I would encourage people to get the book I would encourage people to get the book uh we'll give you the link and uh we'll give you the link and uh we'll give you the link and everything in the show notes because everything in the show notes because everything in the show notes because it's a it's a deeply different it's a it's a deeply different it's a it's a deeply different alternative view than I think most of us alternative view than I think most of us alternative view than I think most of us have in in this culture Y and it's have in in this culture Y and it's have in in this culture Y and it's compelling and the other thing you know compelling and the other thing you know compelling and the other thing you know you've written about this Tom Holland you've written about this Tom Holland you've written about this Tom Holland has written about this what I think is has written about this what I think is has written about this what I think is lost and I'm glad this is getting lost and I'm glad this is getting lost and I'm glad this is getting daylight right now is we think things daylight right now is we think things daylight right now is we think things like caring for the poor and you know like caring for the poor and you know like caring for the poor and you know Dignity of Life are fundamental human Dignity of Life are fundamental human Dignity of Life are fundamental human rights that have been around since Adam rights that have been around since Adam rights that have been around since Adam and that's not the case I mean that was and that's not the case I mean that was and that's not the case I mean that was not the Roman Empire that was not most not the Roman Empire that was not most not the Roman Empire that was not most of human nature through the Millennia um

of human nature through the Millennia um of human nature through the Millennia um and now it's seen even by secular people and now it's seen even by secular people and now it's seen even by secular people as being well of course there are human as being well of course there are human as being well of course there are human rights well of course there's dignity in rights well of course there's dignity in rights well of course there's dignity in every person well of course you know and every person well of course you know and every person well of course you know and it was like no there was no of course it was like no there was no of course it was like no there was no of course before Christianity is that is that before Christianity is that is that before Christianity is that is that accurate I think people have lost that accurate I think people have lost that accurate I think people have lost that contrast yeah Christianity but but then contrast yeah Christianity but but then contrast yeah Christianity but but then the Jewish world or the in the first the Jewish world or the in the first the Jewish world or the in the first century the Judean world the world of century the Judean world the world of century the Judean world the world of judeans which had gone out into the rest judeans which had gone out into the rest judeans which had gone out into the rest of the world they had a strong ethic I of the world they had a strong ethic I of the world they had a strong ethic I mean I mentioned before the exposure of mean I mentioned before the exposure of mean I mentioned before the exposure of unwanted babies particularly unwanted unwanted babies particularly unwanted unwanted babies particularly unwanted baby girls um the Jews never did that baby girls um the Jews never did that baby girls um the Jews never did that and the Christians picked up from that and the Christians picked up from that and the Christians picked up from that likewise abortion um in the Pagan World likewise abortion um in the Pagan World likewise abortion um in the Pagan World many many many Pagan men um would force many many many Pagan men um would force many many many Pagan men um would force their wives to have abortions and their wives to have abortions and their wives to have abortions and because the surgery was pretty because the surgery was pretty because the surgery was pretty rudimentary in those days that quite rudimentary in those days that quite rudimentary in those days that quite often meant the death or severe um often meant the death or severe um often meant the death or severe um suffering of of the wife but the men suffering of of the wife but the men suffering of of the wife but the men just that's I don't want any more just that's I don't want any more just that's I don't want any more children so you've got to have an children so you've got to have an children so you've got to have an abortion um the Jews never did that and abortion um the Jews never did that and abortion um the Jews never did that and the Christians again picked up from that the Christians again picked up from that the Christians again picked up from that but lots of other ways as well where the but lots of other ways as well where the but lots of other ways as well where the Jews cared for um poor people in their Jews cared for um poor people in their Jews cared for um poor people in their own community and the Christians said own community and the Christians said own community and the Christians said well actually now that our community is well actually now that our community is well actually now that our community is worldwide Jew and Gentile male and worldwide Jew and Gentile male and worldwide Jew and Gentile male and female slave and free we're going to try female slave and free we're going to try female slave and free we're going to try to care for you all which is why the to care for you all which is why the to care for you all which is why the very first controversy in the church is very first controversy in the church is very first controversy in the church is between the distribution of food to uh between the distribution of food to uh between the distribution of food to uh widows from different ethnic um widows from different ethnic um widows from different ethnic um minorities within within the Jerusalem minorities within within the Jerusalem minorities within within the Jerusalem Church and which is which is fascinating

Church and which is which is fascinating Church and which is which is fascinating that that's one of the first things that that that's one of the first things that that that's one of the first things that comes up but it tells you that right comes up but it tells you that right comes up but it tells you that right from day one they know that their their from day one they know that their their from day one they know that their their whole reson Detra is about caring for whole reson Detra is about caring for whole reson Detra is about caring for the weak and the poor and the vulnerable the weak and the poor and the vulnerable the weak and the poor and the vulnerable um which which which is which which um which which which is which which um which which which is which which other people weren't doing as you say if other people weren't doing as you say if other people weren't doing as you say if you were poor you sat in the street you were poor you sat in the street you were poor you sat in the street begging or you went to the wall if you begging or you went to the wall if you begging or you went to the wall if you were sick well if you could find a were sick well if you could find a were sick well if you could find a doctor good luck to you but we weren't doctor good luck to you but we weren't doctor good luck to you but we weren't going to help you otherwise and and so going to help you otherwise and and so going to help you otherwise and and so on and so forth and the Christians were on and so forth and the Christians were on and so forth and the Christians were into helping the poor helping the sick into helping the poor helping the sick into helping the poor helping the sick and particularly educating um the reason and particularly educating um the reason and particularly educating um the reason we have books um biblion in Greek is we have books um biblion in Greek is we have books um biblion in Greek is that we we went we moved from the scroll that we we went we moved from the scroll that we we went we moved from the scroll which was something that's easier for a which was something that's easier for a which was something that's easier for a for a train scribe to have to uh the for a train scribe to have to uh the for a train scribe to have to uh the code deex which Ordinary People could code deex which Ordinary People could code deex which Ordinary People could have which opened up with Pages easier have which opened up with Pages easier have which opened up with Pages easier to read and the Christians taught people to read and the Christians taught people to read and the Christians taught people to read so that they could read the to read so that they could read the to read so that they could read the Bible apart from anything else um so Bible apart from anything else um so Bible apart from anything else um so there's all sorts of ways in which and there's all sorts of ways in which and there's all sorts of ways in which and I'm absolutely with Tom Holland on this I'm absolutely with Tom Holland on this I'm absolutely with Tom Holland on this the world has changed radically uh and the world has changed radically uh and the world has changed radically uh and but I remember oh back in 2008 Pope John but I remember oh back in 2008 Pope John but I remember oh back in 2008 Pope John Paul was speaking at the United Nations Paul was speaking at the United Nations Paul was speaking at the United Nations in New York and I remember the speech in New York and I remember the speech in New York and I remember the speech well he said uh yes human rights well he said uh yes human rights well he said uh yes human rights absolutely but the idea of Human Rights absolutely but the idea of Human Rights absolutely but the idea of Human Rights comes straight out of the comes straight out of the comes straight out of the judeo-christian tradition and if you cut judeo-christian tradition and if you cut judeo-christian tradition and if you cut off those roots then the fruits are off those roots then the fruits are off those roots then the fruits are going to go sour and he spoke about what going to go sour and he spoke about what going to go sour and he spoke about what you're left with is a cacophony of you're left with is a cacophony of you're left with is a cacophony of special interest special pleading and of

special interest special pleading and of special interest special pleading and of of everyone scrambling for the supposed of everyone scrambling for the supposed of everyone scrambling for the supposed moral High Ground of victimhood I'm more moral High Ground of victimhood I'm more moral High Ground of victimhood I'm more of a victim than you are so therefore my of a victim than you are so therefore my of a victim than you are so therefore my rights are ahead of yours and so on I rights are ahead of yours and so on I rights are ahead of yours and so on I think he was absolutely right yeah so I think he was absolutely right yeah so I think he was absolutely right yeah so I as you're describing this I see so many as you're describing this I see so many as you're describing this I see so many churches I know small medium Mega I mean churches I know small medium Mega I mean churches I know small medium Mega I mean this isn't all skate not every church this isn't all skate not every church this isn't all skate not every church but a lot of churches they do that they but a lot of churches they do that they but a lot of churches they do that they feed the poor they have food banks they feed the poor they have food banks they feed the poor they have food banks they care they clothe people they have mercy care they clothe people they have mercy care they clothe people they have mercy Ministries they they do so much of that Ministries they they do so much of that Ministries they they do so much of that good but it's almost as though that's a good but it's almost as though that's a good but it's almost as though that's a private thing in the absence of any private thing in the absence of any private thing in the absence of any government or even municipal government or even municipal government or even municipal um inaction what is the problem with um inaction what is the problem with um inaction what is the problem with just doing that as a private thing for just doing that as a private thing for just doing that as a private thing for our little church what our church does our little church what our church does our little church what our church does or big church or mega church does um how or big church or mega church does um how or big church or mega church does um how would you how would would you how would would you how would you see how would you hope to see that you see how would you hope to see that you see how would you hope to see that shift yes I mean the idea of the state shift yes I mean the idea of the state shift yes I mean the idea of the state having responsibility but by the way I'm having responsibility but by the way I'm having responsibility but by the way I'm not sure if everyone realizes but the not sure if everyone realizes but the not sure if everyone realizes but the idea of a state which does things is a idea of a state which does things is a idea of a state which does things is a very modern idea yeah like 150 years old very modern idea yeah like 150 years old very modern idea yeah like 150 years old basically 100 years old maybe slightly basically 100 years old maybe slightly basically 100 years old maybe slightly more than that but not but not that much more than that but not but not that much more than that but not but not that much um the the idea of of a multicompetent um the the idea of of a multicompetent um the the idea of of a multicompetent state which can look after all the state which can look after all the state which can look after all the aspects of of life in an entire aspects of of life in an entire aspects of of life in an entire geographical area that's something that geographical area that's something that geographical area that's something that was simply Unthinkable until was simply Unthinkable until was simply Unthinkable until comparatively modern times but anyway um

comparatively modern times but anyway um comparatively modern times but anyway um but the shift from this is what the but the shift from this is what the but the shift from this is what the church does to this is what should be church does to this is what should be church does to this is what should be being done across the board that that being done across the board that that being done across the board that that happens I mean we have to remind happens I mean we have to remind happens I mean we have to remind ourselves as well that there are many ourselves as well that there are many ourselves as well that there are many places in the world today um where the places in the world today um where the places in the world today um where the Christian the practice of Christianity Christian the practice of Christianity Christian the practice of Christianity is completely outlawed you know you'd be is completely outlawed you know you'd be is completely outlawed you know you'd be if you tried to celebrate the Eucharist if you tried to celebrate the Eucharist if you tried to celebrate the Eucharist even in a hotel room in Saudi Arabia you even in a hotel room in Saudi Arabia you even in a hotel room in Saudi Arabia you might easily face arrest um let alone might easily face arrest um let alone might easily face arrest um let alone somewhere like Myanmar um and uh I don't somewhere like Myanmar um and uh I don't somewhere like Myanmar um and uh I don't know very much about China but I know know very much about China but I know know very much about China but I know that there are millions and millions of that there are millions and millions of that there are millions and millions of Christians there and that the state Christians there and that the state Christians there and that the state tries to keep a firm hold on them um but tries to keep a firm hold on them um but tries to keep a firm hold on them um but it can't can't but but you see what I'm it can't can't but but you see what I'm it can't can't but but you see what I'm saying that uh it's very different in a saying that uh it's very different in a saying that uh it's very different in a country that gives lip service as my country that gives lip service as my country that gives lip service as my country does to some sort of Christian country does to some sort of Christian country does to some sort of Christian Allegiance even though we know that only Allegiance even though we know that only Allegiance even though we know that only sort of 7% or something of the sort of 7% or something of the sort of 7% or something of the population um go regularly to church but population um go regularly to church but population um go regularly to church but there is still a sense that what the there is still a sense that what the there is still a sense that what the church is doing is showing us all what church is doing is showing us all what church is doing is showing us all what we ought to do and how you make the we ought to do and how you make the we ought to do and how you make the transition from the one to the other is transition from the one to the other is transition from the one to the other is interesting and tricky we're having that interesting and tricky we're having that interesting and tricky we're having that debate in my country at the moment about debate in my country at the moment about debate in my country at the moment about pallative care as successive governments pallative care as successive governments pallative care as successive governments are toying with the idea of assisted are toying with the idea of assisted are toying with the idea of assisted suicide or assisted dying or whatever suicide or assisted dying or whatever suicide or assisted dying or whatever it's going to be called and people are it's going to be called and people are it's going to be called and people are looking nervously at the Canadian looking nervously at the Canadian looking nervously at the Canadian experiment and nervously at Oregon experiment and nervously at Oregon experiment and nervously at Oregon Oregon and Holland and so on um and many Oregon and Holland and so on um and many Oregon and Holland and so on um and many people are saying we should have more people are saying we should have more people are saying we should have more hospices where proper full-on pallative hospices where proper full-on pallative hospices where proper full-on pallative care is given in my country that has

care is given in my country that has care is given in my country that has been almost entirely a Christian been almost entirely a Christian been almost entirely a Christian operation and the paliative care people operation and the paliative care people operation and the paliative care people have been saying we've been doing it on have been saying we've been doing it on have been saying we've been doing it on the basis of of Christianity for the the basis of of Christianity for the the basis of of Christianity for the last generation or two actually this is last generation or two actually this is last generation or two actually this is something that the National Health something that the National Health something that the National Health Service ought to be offering um and of Service ought to be offering um and of Service ought to be offering um and of course that's difficult because the NHS course that's difficult because the NHS course that's difficult because the NHS budget is overstretched and there's all budget is overstretched and there's all budget is overstretched and there's all sorts of issues about that but that's a sorts of issues about that but that's a sorts of issues about that but that's a case of where something which the case of where something which the case of where something which the churches saw needed to be done and the churches saw needed to be done and the churches saw needed to be done and the churches have done very successfully um churches have done very successfully um churches have done very successfully um many people are now saying this actually many people are now saying this actually many people are now saying this actually ought to be done by by the state as a ought to be done by by the state as a ought to be done by by the state as a whole um and I I I would agree with that whole um and I I I would agree with that whole um and I I I would agree with that um and then but likewise with food banks um and then but likewise with food banks um and then but likewise with food banks or whatever it may be of course I know or whatever it may be of course I know or whatever it may be of course I know the arguments that if you have food the arguments that if you have food the arguments that if you have food banks on every street corner then people banks on every street corner then people banks on every street corner then people will give up working because they can will give up working because they can will give up working because they can just go and get food from the corner and just go and get food from the corner and just go and get food from the corner and Pa interestingly isn't it that Paul Pa interestingly isn't it that Paul Pa interestingly isn't it that Paul already addresses that issue in his already addresses that issue in his already addresses that issue in his letters to the Thessalonians where he letters to the Thessalonians where he letters to the Thessalonians where he talks about The Free Loaders who think talks about The Free Loaders who think talks about The Free Loaders who think they can just go along to the church and they can just go along to the church and they can just go along to the church and get a lunch and so it's okay he says no get a lunch and so it's okay he says no get a lunch and so it's okay he says no just roll up your sleeves and get on just roll up your sleeves and get on just roll up your sleeves and get on with your own work you don't work you with your own work you don't work you with your own work you don't work you don't eat exactly exactly so so I mean don't eat exactly exactly so so I mean don't eat exactly exactly so so I mean but but it's very interesting to me that but but it's very interesting to me that but but it's very interesting to me that we can see the early church navigating we can see the early church navigating we can see the early church navigating precisely those questions and they're precisely those questions and they're precisely those questions and they're good questions to be navigating because good questions to be navigating because good questions to be navigating because it shows the church is doing his it shows the church is doing his it shows the church is doing his job yeah and what you're saying I think job yeah and what you're saying I think job yeah and what you're saying I think if I hear you correctly is that the

if I hear you correctly is that the if I hear you correctly is that the church should be a beacon the church church should be a beacon the church church should be a beacon the church should be the light the church should be should be the light the church should be should be the light the church should be pointing the way and that we cooperate pointing the way and that we cooperate pointing the way and that we cooperate with Civic authorities to make the world with Civic authorities to make the world with Civic authorities to make the world a better place yeah that's why I say a better place yeah that's why I say a better place yeah that's why I say collaborate without compromise because collaborate without compromise because collaborate without compromise because the Civic authorities May whether the Civic authorities May whether the Civic authorities May whether deliberately or otherwise try to force deliberately or otherwise try to force deliberately or otherwise try to force the church's hand and say of course you the church's hand and say of course you the church's hand and say of course you will come in with us on this particular will come in with us on this particular will come in with us on this particular project won't you um when the church May project won't you um when the church May project won't you um when the church May well want to say sorry we can't follow well want to say sorry we can't follow well want to say sorry we can't follow you down that road but the other thing you down that road but the other thing you down that road but the other thing that goes with that we collaborate that goes with that we collaborate that goes with that we collaborate without compromise but we must also without compromise but we must also without compromise but we must also critique without critique without critique without dualism I wish there was a word dualism I wish there was a word dualism I wish there was a word beginning with C that I could use to to beginning with C that I could use to to beginning with C that I could use to to make the work but but the church has got make the work but but the church has got make the work but but the church has got to church has got to be able to critique to church has got to be able to critique to church has got to be able to critique the society but never to lapse into the the society but never to lapse into the the society but never to lapse into the idea that the world out there is just as idea that the world out there is just as idea that the world out there is just as bad as it could possibly be and we have bad as it could possibly be and we have bad as it could possibly be and we have all the light here in this community to all the light here in this community to all the light here in this community to to critique while affirming everything to critique while affirming everything to critique while affirming everything that can be affirmed in what's going on that can be affirmed in what's going on that can be affirmed in what's going on in the society but saying but on this in in the society but saying but on this in in the society but saying but on this in this respect um sorry you're getting it this respect um sorry you're getting it this respect um sorry you're getting it wrong you know um wrong you know um wrong you know um Jesus in John 16 talks about when the Jesus in John 16 talks about when the Jesus in John 16 talks about when the spirit comes he will convict the world spirit comes he will convict the world spirit comes he will convict the world of sin and righteousness and judgment of sin and righteousness and judgment of sin and righteousness and judgment and I used to think um yeah that's great and I used to think um yeah that's great and I used to think um yeah that's great I'm looking forward to seeing the spirit I'm looking forward to seeing the spirit I'm looking forward to seeing the spirit convict the world but then you realize convict the world but then you realize convict the world but then you realize the way the spirit works is through the way the spirit works is through the way the spirit works is through jesus' followers so it's Jesus followers jesus' followers so it's Jesus followers jesus' followers so it's Jesus followers led by the spirit energized by the led by the spirit energized by the led by the spirit energized by the spirit who have to speak truth to power spirit who have to speak truth to power spirit who have to speak truth to power who have to hold up the mirror to the

who have to hold up the mirror to the who have to hold up the mirror to the authorities and say look what you're authorities and say look what you're authorities and say look what you're doing and this is actually out of line doing and this is actually out of line doing and this is actually out of line and so and so and so collaborate without compromise critique collaborate without compromise critique collaborate without compromise critique without dualism and somehow then be without dualism and somehow then be without dualism and somehow then be living as yeah a light to the world a living as yeah a light to the world a living as yeah a light to the world a city set on the hill now of course that city set on the hill now of course that city set on the hill now of course that idea of the city on the hill has been I idea of the city on the hill has been I idea of the city on the hill has been I think taken in various ways but in think taken in various ways but in think taken in various ways but in principle this is what I mean by the principle this is what I mean by the principle this is what I mean by the church as a small working model of New church as a small working model of New church as a small working model of New Creation that it's a place where New Creation that it's a place where New Creation that it's a place where New Creation is happening where people are Creation is happening where people are Creation is happening where people are finding new life where fresh things are finding new life where fresh things are finding new life where fresh things are happening where strangers are being happening where strangers are being happening where strangers are being welcomed where broken and battered and welcomed where broken and battered and welcomed where broken and battered and outcasts are being healed and looked outcasts are being healed and looked outcasts are being healed and looked after and this is a sign to the world after and this is a sign to the world after and this is a sign to the world that Jesus is Lord um and it's what Paul that Jesus is Lord um and it's what Paul that Jesus is Lord um and it's what Paul says in Ephesians chapter 3 that when says in Ephesians chapter 3 that when says in Ephesians chapter 3 that when the church is being the church this the church is being the church this the church is being the church this multicolored multicolored multicolored multiethnic um Jew plus Gentile and multiethnic um Jew plus Gentile and multiethnic um Jew plus Gentile and everybody else community that then the everybody else community that then the everybody else community that then the principalities and Powers who think they principalities and Powers who think they principalities and Powers who think they run the world are being called to run the world are being called to run the world are being called to account Caesar would love to make a account Caesar would love to make a account Caesar would love to make a society like that he can't can't do it society like that he can't can't do it society like that he can't can't do it the Caesar tried and it always became the Caesar tried and it always became the Caesar tried and it always became heavy-handed top- down always for the heavy-handed top- down always for the heavy-handed top- down always for the benefit of the elite always for the benefit of the elite always for the benefit of the elite always for the benefit of the rich Etc and the church benefit of the rich Etc and the church benefit of the rich Etc and the church has got to do it the other way so this has got to do it the other way so this has got to do it the other way so this is a beautiful vision and it gives uh I is a beautiful vision and it gives uh I is a beautiful vision and it gives uh I think leaders lisening church leaders think leaders lisening church leaders think leaders lisening church leaders elders boards and church staff a vision elders boards and church staff a vision elders boards and church staff a vision to work toward and I think it's exciting to work toward and I think it's exciting to work toward and I think it's exciting but we're a couple months out from a

but we're a couple months out from a but we're a couple months out from a major election in the United States and major election in the United States and major election in the United States and probably haven't got time to implement probably haven't got time to implement probably haven't got time to implement the full vision although I do hope it's the full vision although I do hope it's the full vision although I do hope it's a it's a midterm long-term goal for our a it's a midterm long-term goal for our a it's a midterm long-term goal for our listeners what do you do in the meantime listeners what do you do in the meantime listeners what do you do in the meantime where you've got uh a congregation that where you've got uh a congregation that where you've got uh a congregation that maybe doesn't see it this way that is maybe doesn't see it this way that is maybe doesn't see it this way that is into the dualism or the Theocratic thing into the dualism or the Theocratic thing into the dualism or the Theocratic thing the polls they're playing the culture the polls they're playing the culture the polls they're playing the culture wars and the rhetoric is going to get wars and the rhetoric is going to get wars and the rhetoric is going to get very very hot any advice because in 2020 very very hot any advice because in 2020 very very hot any advice because in 2020 so many well-meaning pastors thought you so many well-meaning pastors thought you so many well-meaning pastors thought you know CU you you've got your minority know CU you you've got your minority know CU you you've got your minority that's on the side of like all Trump or that's on the side of like all Trump or that's on the side of like all Trump or all Biden or you know I'm Qing on or I'm all Biden or you know I'm Qing on or I'm all Biden or you know I'm Qing on or I'm Progressive left or whatever you got got Progressive left or whatever you got got Progressive left or whatever you got got a handful of those but I think my theory a handful of those but I think my theory a handful of those but I think my theory is 90 to 95% of pastors are somewhere in is 90 to 95% of pastors are somewhere in is 90 to 95% of pastors are somewhere in the middle and they're horrified by the the middle and they're horrified by the the middle and they're horrified by the culture wars and they don't want I mean culture wars and they don't want I mean culture wars and they don't want I mean maybe they've got strong views on maybe they've got strong views on maybe they've got strong views on abortion or gun control or some of the abortion or gun control or some of the abortion or gun control or some of the issues we've mentioned yeah but they're issues we've mentioned yeah but they're issues we've mentioned yeah but they're they're they know that the the the they're they know that the the the they're they know that the the the political Waters have been poisoned to political Waters have been poisoned to political Waters have been poisoned to some extent and they see it and they're some extent and they see it and they're some extent and they see it and they're trying to get Church to go together into trying to get Church to go together into trying to get Church to go together into the future and they said the wrong thing the future and they said the wrong thing the future and they said the wrong thing and a quarter of the church left or they and a quarter of the church left or they and a quarter of the church left or they didn't say enough or they said it with didn't say enough or they said it with didn't say enough or they said it with the wrong intonation and people got the wrong intonation and people got the wrong intonation and people got upset and so there's a lot of upset and so there's a lot of upset and so there's a lot of um probably wounded triggered leaders um probably wounded triggered leaders um probably wounded triggered leaders out there who like hey we've done this out there who like hey we've done this out there who like hey we've done this before this did not go well what advice before this did not go well what advice before this did not go well what advice would you give them about leading well

would you give them about leading well would you give them about leading well in a highly polarized culture it is in a highly polarized culture it is in a highly polarized culture it is really really tough and I really really tough and I really really tough and I was just in America recently and talking was just in America recently and talking was just in America recently and talking with people I I feel for pastors in that with people I I feel for pastors in that with people I I feel for pastors in that situation um and and I feel the situation um and and I feel the situation um and and I feel the political winds in different bits of political winds in different bits of political winds in different bits of America blowing this way and that I mean America blowing this way and that I mean America blowing this way and that I mean I was in New York um for one week and I was in New York um for one week and I was in New York um for one week and then I was in Houston for another week then I was in Houston for another week then I was in Houston for another week and um somewhat different different and um somewhat different different and um somewhat different different political atmosphere in those two cities political atmosphere in those two cities political atmosphere in those two cities I would say yes um and talking to I would say yes um and talking to I would say yes um and talking to pastors from those contexts uh wrestling pastors from those contexts uh wrestling pastors from those contexts uh wrestling with precisely these issues and I I with precisely these issues and I I with precisely these issues and I I think I would want to to roll right back think I would want to to roll right back think I would want to to roll right back to those basic things of of teaching to those basic things of of teaching to those basic things of of teaching people how actually in within the people how actually in within the people how actually in within the kingdom of God and the rulers of this kingdom of God and the rulers of this kingdom of God and the rulers of this world are held to account and that means world are held to account and that means world are held to account and that means all rulers of this world and that means all rulers of this world and that means all rulers of this world and that means we're not expecting to elect a savior or we're not expecting to elect a savior or we're not expecting to elect a savior or a messiah we're not expect and we we a messiah we're not expect and we we a messiah we're not expect and we we shouldn't Imagine That by voting this shouldn't Imagine That by voting this shouldn't Imagine That by voting this way or that way we're going to create way or that way we're going to create way or that way we're going to create Utopia because um until the Lord returns Utopia because um until the Lord returns Utopia because um until the Lord returns we always going to be in a situation we always going to be in a situation we always going to be in a situation where human beings are called by God to where human beings are called by God to where human beings are called by God to look after his world but they will get look after his world but they will get look after his world but they will get it wrong like we would all get it wrong it wrong like we would all get it wrong it wrong like we would all get it wrong and it's the church's job to critique and it's the church's job to critique and it's the church's job to critique them and then it's the church's job as them and then it's the church's job as them and then it's the church's job as well to have prophetic Ministries within well to have prophetic Ministries within well to have prophetic Ministries within the church and to sustain those which the church and to sustain those which the church and to sustain those which will tell the church when it's getting will tell the church when it's getting will tell the church when it's getting it wrong because the church is not going it wrong because the church is not going it wrong because the church is not going to be infallible um and so we need to be to be infallible um and so we need to be to be infallible um and so we need to be to create enough space and not to be

to create enough space and not to be to create enough space and not to be surprised when people uh come to us and surprised when people uh come to us and surprised when people uh come to us and say look I've been saying my prayers say look I've been saying my prayers say look I've been saying my prayers about this I've been looking at what's about this I've been looking at what's about this I've been looking at what's going on and I really think we're out of going on and I really think we're out of going on and I really think we're out of line that's where with many contentious line that's where with many contentious line that's where with many contentious issues in a church in an ordinary Parish issues in a church in an ordinary Parish issues in a church in an ordinary Parish or whatever I know that in an American or whatever I know that in an American or whatever I know that in an American mega church is quite different if You' mega church is quite different if You' mega church is quite different if You' got several thousands or tens of got several thousands or tens of got several thousands or tens of thousands of members but um certainly in thousands of members but um certainly in thousands of members but um certainly in parishes that I know and Cathedrals that parishes that I know and Cathedrals that parishes that I know and Cathedrals that I know it it was usually possible when a I know it it was usually possible when a I know it it was usually possible when a contentious issue was coming up to have contentious issue was coming up to have contentious issue was coming up to have congregational meetings where you had congregational meetings where you had congregational meetings where you had very definite ground rules about how very definite ground rules about how very definite ground rules about how people were about not yelling at one people were about not yelling at one people were about not yelling at one another about having Ephesians 4:1 about another about having Ephesians 4:1 about another about having Ephesians 4:1 about meekness and gentleness and patience as meekness and gentleness and patience as meekness and gentleness and patience as the absolute um ground plan um and and the absolute um ground plan um and and the absolute um ground plan um and and now let us hear one another and let us now let us hear one another and let us now let us hear one another and let us sense one another's concerns let us pray sense one another's concerns let us pray sense one another's concerns let us pray for and with one another and I would say for and with one another and I would say for and with one another and I would say just like in southern Africa when just like in southern Africa when just like in southern Africa when Desmond Tutu was working with the aparte Desmond Tutu was working with the aparte Desmond Tutu was working with the aparte regime Desmond and his fellow pastors regime Desmond and his fellow pastors regime Desmond and his fellow pastors and fellow Bishops went round patiently and fellow Bishops went round patiently and fellow Bishops went round patiently for years round government offices for years round government offices for years round government offices saying can we read the Bible with you saying can we read the Bible with you saying can we read the Bible with you can we just pray for our country with can we just pray for our country with can we just pray for our country with you um without saying we need to decide you um without saying we need to decide you um without saying we need to decide today that you're wrong or right or today that you're wrong or right or today that you're wrong or right or whatever but just saying can we do this whatever but just saying can we do this whatever but just saying can we do this together if we are all naming the name together if we are all naming the name together if we are all naming the name of Jesus let us at least hear one of Jesus let us at least hear one of Jesus let us at least hear one another out and then link arms and say another out and then link arms and say another out and then link arms and say the Lord's prow together that would be a the Lord's prow together that would be a the Lord's prow together that would be a whole lot better than posting something whole lot better than posting something whole lot better than posting something on Instagram Instagram about my Wicked

on Instagram Instagram about my Wicked on Instagram Instagram about my Wicked Pastor said this in his sermon her Pastor said this in his sermon her Pastor said this in his sermon her sermon last week um and and the the sermon last week um and and the the sermon last week um and and the the simple Christian disciplines of simple Christian disciplines of simple Christian disciplines of listening to one another and praying listening to one another and praying listening to one another and praying with one another people might find it's with one another people might find it's with one another people might find it's much harder to demonize somebody with much harder to demonize somebody with much harder to demonize somebody with whom you have just prayed The Lord's whom you have just prayed The Lord's whom you have just prayed The Lord's Prayer um that may sound very basic Prayer um that may sound very basic Prayer um that may sound very basic almost pietistic naive but it seems to almost pietistic naive but it seems to almost pietistic naive but it seems to me it pretty pretty basic Rock Bottom me it pretty pretty basic Rock Bottom me it pretty pretty basic Rock Bottom stuff and particularly and I would say stuff and particularly and I would say stuff and particularly and I would say this as an Anglican but I would say it this as an Anglican but I would say it this as an Anglican but I would say it as a Christian sharing the Lord's Supper as a Christian sharing the Lord's Supper as a Christian sharing the Lord's Supper once you have broken bread and shared once you have broken bread and shared once you have broken bread and shared the wine with people and linked arms and the wine with people and linked arms and the wine with people and linked arms and said we are the body of Christ in one by said we are the body of Christ in one by said we are the body of Christ in one by one Spirit we're all baptized into one one Spirit we're all baptized into one one Spirit we're all baptized into one body Endeavor to keep the unity of the body Endeavor to keep the unity of the body Endeavor to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace that comes spirit in the bond of peace that comes spirit in the bond of peace that comes straight out of my Anglican liturgy but straight out of my Anglican liturgy but straight out of my Anglican liturgy but my goodness we need to hear that and my goodness we need to hear that and my goodness we need to hear that and doing the Eucharist together like saying doing the Eucharist together like saying doing the Eucharist together like saying the Lord's Prayer together that's the Lord's Prayer together that's the Lord's Prayer together that's absolutely basic and where that doesn't absolutely basic and where that doesn't absolutely basic and where that doesn't happen we may be leaving the door open happen we may be leaving the door open happen we may be leaving the door open to the polarizations that we're all so to the polarizations that we're all so to the polarizations that we're all so aware could easily happen aware could easily happen aware could easily happen I mean I'm in the middle of doing these I mean I'm in the middle of doing these I mean I'm in the middle of doing these interviews for this series and what I'm interviews for this series and what I'm interviews for this series and what I'm sensing already as an early advice uh sensing already as an early advice uh sensing already as an early advice uh Trend that says step back a little bit Trend that says step back a little bit Trend that says step back a little bit don't get involved in the partisanship don't get involved in the partisanship don't get involved in the partisanship but call us back to what we all know to but call us back to what we all know to but call us back to what we all know to be true or what has always been true be true or what has always been true be true or what has always been true rather than trying to point out uh a rather than trying to point out uh a rather than trying to point out uh a running commentary on what's Happening running commentary on what's Happening running commentary on what's Happening that that makes a lot of sense um at the that that makes a lot of sense um at the that that makes a lot of sense um at the same time some Sometimes some of what's

same time some Sometimes some of what's same time some Sometimes some of what's happening is is uh so clearly a symptom happening is is uh so clearly a symptom happening is is uh so clearly a symptom of something that's either good or bad of something that's either good or bad of something that's either good or bad that it might be worth highlighting it I that it might be worth highlighting it I that it might be worth highlighting it I I find I find when I preach um I was I find I find when I preach um I was I find I find when I preach um I was preaching in in New York just a couple preaching in in New York just a couple preaching in in New York just a couple of weeks ago um as an outsider coming in of weeks ago um as an outsider coming in of weeks ago um as an outsider coming in um I was not about to thump the pulpit um I was not about to thump the pulpit um I was not about to thump the pulpit for a particular cause but from time to for a particular cause but from time to for a particular cause but from time to time I would drop a phrase in which uh time I would drop a phrase in which uh time I would drop a phrase in which uh which had a kind of let the reader which had a kind of let the reader which had a kind of let the reader understand about it and so that there understand about it and so that there understand about it and so that there there is no doubt a wise and healthy way there is no doubt a wise and healthy way there is no doubt a wise and healthy way of doing that but I I think again and of doing that but I I think again and of doing that but I I think again and again to emphasize God wants there to be again to emphasize God wants there to be again to emphasize God wants there to be human rulers but the human rulers are human rulers but the human rulers are human rulers but the human rulers are not infallible Messiahs and therefore not infallible Messiahs and therefore not infallible Messiahs and therefore the church has a role Visa those human the church has a role Visa those human the church has a role Visa those human rulers and this is the whole church rulers and this is the whole church rulers and this is the whole church State thing that people have got so State thing that people have got so State thing that people have got so confused they think that either Church confused they think that either Church confused they think that either Church plus State means the church is telling plus State means the church is telling plus State means the church is telling the state what to do or the state is the state what to do or the state is the state what to do or the state is telling the Church what to do it isn't telling the Church what to do it isn't telling the Church what to do it isn't either of those it's much more nuanced either of those it's much more nuanced either of those it's much more nuanced and actually we have an official Church and actually we have an official Church and actually we have an official Church State partnership in the UK but the way State partnership in the UK but the way State partnership in the UK but the way it works isn't that different from how it works isn't that different from how it works isn't that different from how things work in the US it's just formally things work in the US it's just formally things work in the US it's just formally the structure is different and of course the structure is different and of course the structure is different and of course Canada is different again um but uh we Canada is different again um but uh we Canada is different again um but uh we we we we need to teach what people have we we we need to teach what people have we we we need to teach what people have not been taught which is basically how not been taught which is basically how not been taught which is basically how Christian polit I'm repeating myself how Christian polit I'm repeating myself how Christian polit I'm repeating myself how a Christian political theology actually a Christian political theology actually a Christian political theology actually works is there ever in your view

works is there ever in your view works is there ever in your view circumstances that would warrant circumstances that would warrant circumstances that would warrant speaking out against a particular party speaking out against a particular party speaking out against a particular party or candidate oh I I would think so yes or candidate oh I I would think so yes or candidate oh I I would think so yes um you know give an obvious example if um you know give an obvious example if um you know give an obvious example if there was a Neo-Nazi party that was there was a Neo-Nazi party that was there was a Neo-Nazi party that was standing in a particular constituency standing in a particular constituency standing in a particular constituency for my British general election and we for my British general election and we for my British general election and we have had some Neo-Nazi movements in my have had some Neo-Nazi movements in my have had some Neo-Nazi movements in my country not as much as in France but we country not as much as in France but we country not as much as in France but we have had them then I would have no have had them then I would have no have had them then I would have no hesitation in saying um that hesitation in saying um that hesitation in saying um that this kind of thing is a symptom of a this kind of thing is a symptom of a this kind of thing is a symptom of a deep sickness we must figure out where deep sickness we must figure out where deep sickness we must figure out where that comes from if there are real that comes from if there are real that comes from if there are real concerns that they want to address let concerns that they want to address let concerns that they want to address let us help them address them but let us not us help them address them but let us not us help them address them but let us not imagine that doing it that sort of way imagine that doing it that sort of way imagine that doing it that sort of way is going to solve anything at all it'll is going to solve anything at all it'll is going to solve anything at all it'll M merely make matters worse worse now M merely make matters worse worse now M merely make matters worse worse now it's easy to fix on that one because I it's easy to fix on that one because I it's easy to fix on that one because I suspect that virtually all of us would suspect that virtually all of us would suspect that virtually all of us would not want Neo-Nazi stuff um but but not want Neo-Nazi stuff um but but not want Neo-Nazi stuff um but but that's an example where one would say that's an example where one would say that's an example where one would say that and if there were some members of that and if there were some members of that and if there were some members of the congregation who got up and walked the congregation who got up and walked the congregation who got up and walked out I would hope would hope as a pastor out I would hope would hope as a pastor out I would hope would hope as a pastor to be able to visit them in their homes to be able to visit them in their homes to be able to visit them in their homes later on in the week and say look I know later on in the week and say look I know later on in the week and say look I know you walked out you're probably mad with you walked out you're probably mad with you walked out you're probably mad with me but um you're you're a brother or me but um you're you're a brother or me but um you're you're a brother or sister in Christ we need to talk about sister in Christ we need to talk about sister in Christ we need to talk about this um and they might shut the door this um and they might shut the door this um and they might shut the door they might slam the door and say go away they might slam the door and say go away they might slam the door and say go away um okay that's their prerogative but um okay that's their prerogative but um okay that's their prerogative but this this is how a healthy Church in a this this is how a healthy Church in a this this is how a healthy Church in a healthy democracy ought to be working healthy democracy ought to be working healthy democracy ought to be working um I mean there are there are different um I mean there are there are different um I mean there are there are different ways of doing it as I say different

ways of doing it as I say different ways of doing it as I say different culture cultural contexts um if I was culture cultural contexts um if I was culture cultural contexts um if I was the the parish priest of a parish in KF the the parish priest of a parish in KF the the parish priest of a parish in KF in Ukraine right now I'd be preaching in Ukraine right now I'd be preaching in Ukraine right now I'd be preaching very different kinds of sermons um and very different kinds of sermons um and very different kinds of sermons um and ditto if I was a parish priest in a in a ditto if I was a parish priest in a in a ditto if I was a parish priest in a in a Christian congregation in many parts of Christian congregation in many parts of Christian congregation in many parts of India where Christianity is likely to be India where Christianity is likely to be India where Christianity is likely to be um scorned or persecuted or even if Modi um scorned or persecuted or even if Modi um scorned or persecuted or even if Modi gets his way made illegal in some places gets his way made illegal in some places gets his way made illegal in some places and you know there are very serious and you know there are very serious and you know there are very serious issues there which would mean you'd have issues there which would mean you'd have issues there which would mean you'd have to think hard about your strategy um to think hard about your strategy um to think hard about your strategy um and never mind the countries where and never mind the countries where and never mind the countries where Christianity has been illegal um for for Christianity has been illegal um for for Christianity has been illegal um for for some while so well it is complex and I'm some while so well it is complex and I'm some while so well it is complex and I'm not uh an expert in any way on uh World not uh an expert in any way on uh World not uh an expert in any way on uh World War II Germany but you know if you look War II Germany but you know if you look War II Germany but you know if you look at Bon Hofer and the confessing Church at Bon Hofer and the confessing Church at Bon Hofer and the confessing Church absolutely the majority Christians in in absolutely the majority Christians in in absolutely the majority Christians in in Germany in the second world war and then Germany in the second world war and then Germany in the second world war and then the 1930s leading up to it actually the 1930s leading up to it actually the 1930s leading up to it actually supported Nazism and saw it as a a supported Nazism and saw it as a a supported Nazism and saw it as a a breath of fresh air they to bring order breath of fresh air they to bring order breath of fresh air they to bring order back and you know it's only in history back and you know it's only in history back and you know it's only in history you look back and go o that was a bad you look back and go o that was a bad you look back and go o that was a bad idea absolutely and we we shudder at idea absolutely and we we shudder at idea absolutely and we we shudder at that but of course they had had the that but of course they had had the that but of course they had had the great economic crash at the end of the great economic crash at the end of the great economic crash at the end of the 1920s and and you know the rampant 1920s and and you know the rampant 1920s and and you know the rampant inflation th% perc inflation etc etc and inflation th% perc inflation etc etc and inflation th% perc inflation etc etc and so people who Liv through that and so people who Liv through that and so people who Liv through that and suffered the poverty and hunger and or suffered the poverty and hunger and or suffered the poverty and hunger and or starvation of that suddenly if there's a starvation of that suddenly if there's a starvation of that suddenly if there's a strong leader saying we're going to do

strong leader saying we're going to do strong leader saying we're going to do this this and this that'll sorted out this this and this that'll sorted out this this and this that'll sorted out and by the way those people are the real and by the way those people are the real and by the way those people are the real problem and so we're going to get rid of problem and so we're going to get rid of problem and so we're going to get rid of them you can see that that has an them you can see that that has an them you can see that that has an enormous appeal to people who'd watched enormous appeal to people who'd watched enormous appeal to people who'd watched parents or grandparents literally parents or grandparents literally parents or grandparents literally Starving in the street um but but but of Starving in the street um but but but of Starving in the street um but but but of course we we know we know the buts um course we we know we know the buts um course we we know we know the buts um and and I I was awfully struck recently and and I I was awfully struck recently and and I I was awfully struck recently by reading AF foret get whereare that in by reading AF foret get whereare that in by reading AF foret get whereare that in the 20s and 30s a great many what we'd the 20s and 30s a great many what we'd the 20s and 30s a great many what we'd call Beano people who who were sort of call Beano people who who were sort of call Beano people who who were sort of the sophisticated thinkers of the day in the sophisticated thinkers of the day in the sophisticated thinkers of the day in Europe um really thought that democracy Europe um really thought that democracy Europe um really thought that democracy was a bad idea that we tried it it was a bad idea that we tried it it was a bad idea that we tried it it obviously didn't work we had to go back obviously didn't work we had to go back obviously didn't work we had to go back to strong leadership and hence the to strong leadership and hence the to strong leadership and hence the strong leadership whether in um Soviet strong leadership whether in um Soviet strong leadership whether in um Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany many people Russia or Nazi Germany many people Russia or Nazi Germany many people thought we need the strong leadership we thought we need the strong leadership we thought we need the strong leadership we don't want to go back to that we can don't want to go back to that we can don't want to go back to that we can watery democracy where you'll get a watery democracy where you'll get a watery democracy where you'll get a different a different government every different a different government every different a different government every two years rather like we've had in two years rather like we've had in two years rather like we've had in Britain Britain Britain recently different Prime Min track of recently different Prime Min track of recently different Prime Min track of your prime minister that was pretty good your prime minister that was pretty good your prime minister that was pretty good recently we're all it's been a big mess recently we're all it's been a big mess recently we're all it's been a big mess but um many people seeing precisely that but um many people seeing precisely that but um many people seeing precisely that chaos would say we need strong chaos would say we need strong chaos would say we need strong leadership um and then hang on which leadership um and then hang on which leadership um and then hang on which sort of strong leadership do we want and sort of strong leadership do we want and sort of strong leadership do we want and do we want either of those sorts and do we want either of those sorts and do we want either of those sorts and this was the great dilemma at the end of this was the great dilemma at the end of this was the great dilemma at the end of the 1930s think we're not only dietr the 1930s think we're not only dietr the 1930s think we're not only dietr boner but somebody like valta Benjamin boner but somebody like valta Benjamin boner but somebody like valta Benjamin um faced with um thinking history was um faced with um thinking history was um faced with um thinking history was coming to its climax this great Clash of

coming to its climax this great Clash of coming to its climax this great Clash of the Titans um communism versus Nazism um the Titans um communism versus Nazism um the Titans um communism versus Nazism um and this is all coming out of the and this is all coming out of the and this is all coming out of the political philosophies that emerg from political philosophies that emerg from political philosophies that emerg from hegelian thought in the 19th century hegelian thought in the 19th century hegelian thought in the 19th century that may seem terribly irrelevant to that may seem terribly irrelevant to that may seem terribly irrelevant to people in Britain or America today but people in Britain or America today but people in Britain or America today but actually it's part of our shared history actually it's part of our shared history actually it's part of our shared history the memories of what happened in Europe the memories of what happened in Europe the memories of what happened in Europe still color the way that people look at still color the way that people look at still color the way that people look at stuff today and I you see I go back to stuff today and I you see I go back to stuff today and I you see I go back to Mark 10 again and again I've preached on Mark 10 again and again I've preached on Mark 10 again and again I've preached on Mark 10 several times where James and Mark 10 several times where James and Mark 10 several times where James and John say we want to sit at your right John say we want to sit at your right John say we want to sit at your right and your left and Jesus says you have no and your left and Jesus says you have no and your left and Jesus says you have no idea what you're talking about and then idea what you're talking about and then idea what you're talking about and then Jesus says you know what the rulers of Jesus says you know what the rulers of Jesus says you know what the rulers of the Gentiles lorded over their subjects the Gentiles lorded over their subjects the Gentiles lorded over their subjects they boss them they bully them they get they boss them they bully them they get they boss them they bully them they get what they want by sheer force we're what they want by sheer force we're what they want by sheer force we're going to do it the other way the one who going to do it the other way the one who going to do it the other way the one who wants to be great among you must be your wants to be great among you must be your wants to be great among you must be your servant and the one who wants to be servant and the one who wants to be servant and the one who wants to be leader must be slave of all because the leader must be slave of all because the leader must be slave of all because the son of man came not to be served but to son of man came not to be served but to son of man came not to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom serve and to give his life as a ransom serve and to give his life as a ransom for many and that's the political for many and that's the political for many and that's the political Theology and what we've called atonement Theology and what we've called atonement Theology and what we've called atonement Theology and we have usually held them Theology and we have usually held them Theology and we have usually held them right right right apart it's time to put them back apart it's time to put them back apart it's time to put them back together again just like Jesus did in together again just like Jesus did in together again just like Jesus did in Mark chapter Mark chapter Mark chapter 10 you know it's interesting you talk 10 you know it's interesting you talk 10 you know it's interesting you talk about the lingering effects I mean I about the lingering effects I mean I about the lingering effects I mean I have European Roots Dutch roots to my have European Roots Dutch roots to my have European Roots Dutch roots to my both sides of my family my mom and my both sides of my family my mom and my both sides of my family my mom and my dad I was born in Canada uh but going dad I was born in Canada uh but going dad I was born in Canada uh but going back numerous times over last 15 years back numerous times over last 15 years back numerous times over last 15 years and then speaking in Germany several and then speaking in Germany several and then speaking in Germany several times over the last decade it's really times over the last decade it's really times over the last decade it's really interesting you you have to talk about interesting you you have to talk about interesting you you have to talk about leadership differently in Germany today

leadership differently in Germany today leadership differently in Germany today because the word for leader is furer because the word for leader is furer because the word for leader is furer yeah and you know we all get a briefing yeah and you know we all get a briefing yeah and you know we all get a briefing when we're speaking in Germany yeah um when we're speaking in Germany yeah um when we're speaking in Germany yeah um and and I think it's it's uh it's worth and and I think it's it's uh it's worth and and I think it's it's uh it's worth studying I'm going to spend by the time studying I'm going to spend by the time studying I'm going to spend by the time this releases I will have spent some this releases I will have spent some this releases I will have spent some time studying Germany in the second time studying Germany in the second time studying Germany in the second world war again this summer that's one world war again this summer that's one world war again this summer that's one of my projects so um any other practical of my projects so um any other practical of my projects so um any other practical advice for leaders who are trying to advice for leaders who are trying to advice for leaders who are trying to hold a very disperate congregation or hold a very disperate congregation or hold a very disperate congregation or volatile congregation together yeah I volatile congregation together yeah I volatile congregation together yeah I mean there are serious news outlets mean there are serious news outlets mean there are serious news outlets there are serious magazines no doubt if there are serious magazines no doubt if there are serious magazines no doubt if you mention any of them I mean I I you mention any of them I mean I I you mention any of them I mean I I sometimes see the magazine called sometimes see the magazine called sometimes see the magazine called Foreign Affairs online and I I know that Foreign Affairs online and I I know that Foreign Affairs online and I I know that that will be a political a particular that will be a political a particular that will be a political a particular political slant but there are serious political slant but there are serious political slant but there are serious articles by well-trained uh economists articles by well-trained uh economists articles by well-trained uh economists politicians people who studied um what's politicians people who studied um what's politicians people who studied um what's going on around the world and I I would going on around the world and I I would going on around the world and I I would urge pastors to read two or three quite urge pastors to read two or three quite urge pastors to read two or three quite different ones each week or each month different ones each week or each month different ones each week or each month at least and and Ponder them and pray at least and and Ponder them and pray at least and and Ponder them and pray through them and ask for wisdom to see through them and ask for wisdom to see through them and ask for wisdom to see to the heart of the issues and to the heart of the issues and to the heart of the issues and particularly if you've got in your particularly if you've got in your particularly if you've got in your congregation one or two or three people congregation one or two or three people congregation one or two or three people who are working in serious issues of who are working in serious issues of who are working in serious issues of government or foreign policy or whatever government or foreign policy or whatever government or foreign policy or whatever it may be then get together with them it may be then get together with them it may be then get together with them and brainstorm with them and ask them and brainstorm with them and ask them and brainstorm with them and ask them what you should be reading um but make what you should be reading um but make what you should be reading um but make sure you won't be able to cover all the

sure you won't be able to cover all the sure you won't be able to cover all the bases but make sure not just to reflect bases but make sure not just to reflect bases but make sure not just to reflect where your natural um bent would be for where your natural um bent would be for where your natural um bent would be for yourself in other words constantly open yourself in other words constantly open yourself in other words constantly open yourself to critique you know if it's yourself to critique you know if it's yourself to critique you know if it's the church's role to critique those in the church's role to critique those in the church's role to critique those in power um we need the critique ourselves power um we need the critique ourselves power um we need the critique ourselves um and that will almost always mean um and that will almost always mean um and that will almost always mean complexifying we tend to complexifying we tend to complexifying we tend to oversimplify we need to make things more oversimplify we need to make things more oversimplify we need to make things more complex again in order that when we complex again in order that when we complex again in order that when we excuse me in order that when we have to excuse me in order that when we have to excuse me in order that when we have to say something definite um it's coming say something definite um it's coming say something definite um it's coming out with a rich and Nuance um flavor to out with a rich and Nuance um flavor to out with a rich and Nuance um flavor to it even if we then want to say something it even if we then want to say something it even if we then want to say something really quite um oneoff and really quite um oneoff and really quite um oneoff and straightforward yeah so and and I agree straightforward yeah so and and I agree straightforward yeah so and and I agree I think that's such good advice longer I think that's such good advice longer I think that's such good advice longer form deeper more thought full articles form deeper more thought full articles form deeper more thought full articles than just something on BuzzFeed or you than just something on BuzzFeed or you than just something on BuzzFeed or you read on X um do you have a favorite read on X um do you have a favorite read on X um do you have a favorite Source or two that you would recommend Source or two that you would recommend Source or two that you would recommend maybe from different perspectives that maybe from different perspectives that maybe from different perspectives that people might check out I I'm probably people might check out I I'm probably people might check out I I'm probably not the right person to ask that um sure not the right person to ask that um sure not the right person to ask that um sure I you see I still live in the world of I you see I still live in the world of I you see I still live in the world of these books called the Old Testament and these books called the Old Testament and these books called the Old Testament and the New Testament and and in order to do the New Testament and and in order to do the New Testament and and in order to do that I live in the world of the Greek that I live in the world of the Greek that I live in the world of the Greek and Roman Antiquity and I wish that I and Roman Antiquity and I wish that I and Roman Antiquity and I wish that I wish there was another bit of me that I wish there was another bit of me that I wish there was another bit of me that I could carve out and and say now let's could carve out and and say now let's could carve out and and say now let's catch up on the 21st century catch up on the 21st century catch up on the 21st century geopolitical thought and I glance at geopolitical thought and I glance at geopolitical thought and I glance at things here and there I read newspapers things here and there I read newspapers things here and there I read newspapers of various sorts I read magazines of

of various sorts I read magazines of of various sorts I read magazines of various sorts I talk to friends of various sorts I talk to friends of various sorts I talk to friends of various sorts but I don't do nearly as various sorts but I don't do nearly as various sorts but I don't do nearly as much as somebody who has prepared to much as somebody who has prepared to much as somebody who has prepared to dive into that um rather to my surprise dive into that um rather to my surprise dive into that um rather to my surprise in my mid-70s I still seem to have a in my mid-70s I still seem to have a in my mid-70s I still seem to have a Bible Teaching Ministry which is going Bible Teaching Ministry which is going Bible Teaching Ministry which is going on refreshing me and as long as that's on refreshing me and as long as that's on refreshing me and as long as that's happening I I want to carry on I don't happening I I want to carry on I don't happening I I want to carry on I don't want to take time away from from that to want to take time away from from that to want to take time away from from that to become a specialist in in contemporary become a specialist in in contemporary become a specialist in in contemporary issues so I'm I'm afraid I don't have I issues so I'm I'm afraid I don't have I issues so I'm I'm afraid I don't have I don't have a great a great answer I don't have a great a great answer I don't have a great a great answer I mentioned before um you know that if you mentioned before um you know that if you mentioned before um you know that if you if you read The Spectator each week you if you read The Spectator each week you if you read The Spectator each week you should also read the new Statesman each should also read the new Statesman each should also read the new Statesman each week and vice versa um but that's just week and vice versa um but that's just week and vice versa um but that's just two polarized British magazines and two polarized British magazines and two polarized British magazines and there are all sorts of other equivalents there are all sorts of other equivalents there are all sorts of other equivalents in in other uh in other countries and in in other uh in other countries and in in other uh in other countries and other walks of life and you know this other walks of life and you know this other walks of life and you know this has been very much a North Atlantic has been very much a North Atlantic has been very much a North Atlantic conversation and fair enough that's conversation and fair enough that's conversation and fair enough that's where you and I are where you and I are where you and I are but if we'd had a third and fourth um but if we'd had a third and fourth um but if we'd had a third and fourth um participant from say Latin America on participant from say Latin America on participant from say Latin America on the one hand or the Indian subcontinent the one hand or the Indian subcontinent the one hand or the Indian subcontinent on the other think of the widely on the other think of the widely on the other think of the widely different issues that would have come up different issues that would have come up different issues that would have come up and I think that's a problem that we in and I think that's a problem that we in and I think that's a problem that we in the North Atlantic World face that we the North Atlantic World face that we the North Atlantic World face that we still tend to think in those terms uh still tend to think in those terms uh still tend to think in those terms uh and realize we are only one part of a and realize we are only one part of a and realize we are only one part of a much larger global system and that much larger global system and that much larger global system and that actually there's a lot of very actually there's a lot of very actually there's a lot of very sophisticated clever people out there sophisticated clever people out there sophisticated clever people out there who think quite differently to ourselves who think quite differently to ourselves who think quite differently to ourselves and and some of them are Christians and and and some of them are Christians and and and some of them are Christians and we need to uh be more open to that and I we need to uh be more open to that and I we need to uh be more open to that and I wish I was young enough and energetic wish I was young enough and energetic wish I was young enough and energetic enough to do some of that being more enough to do some of that being more enough to do some of that being more open myself I have uh two final

open myself I have uh two final open myself I have uh two final questions if you have a couple more questions if you have a couple more questions if you have a couple more minutes uh Tom sure uh I'd love to know minutes uh Tom sure uh I'd love to know minutes uh Tom sure uh I'd love to know um I've been to England a number of um I've been to England a number of um I've been to England a number of times spoken in your churches at htb at times spoken in your churches at htb at times spoken in your churches at htb at the alpha leadership conference and then the alpha leadership conference and then the alpha leadership conference and then at some other churches in England and at some other churches in England and at some other churches in England and I'm sensing that you know as many I'm sensing that you know as many I'm sensing that you know as many problems as the Church of England faces problems as the Church of England faces problems as the Church of England faces and English churches face there's and English churches face there's and English churches face there's renewal deep meaningful pockets of renewal deep meaningful pockets of renewal deep meaningful pockets of renewal and I feel like I see an renewal and I feel like I see an renewal and I feel like I see an embodiment of what you imagined both embodiment of what you imagined both embodiment of what you imagined both what we've talked about in this what we've talked about in this what we've talked about in this conversation what you write about what conversation what you write about what conversation what you write about what has the British I'm sure we could go on has the British I'm sure we could go on has the British I'm sure we could go on for another two hours about what the for another two hours about what the for another two hours about what the British church has done wrong over the British church has done wrong over the British church has done wrong over the last century but what have you done last century but what have you done last century but what have you done right in the Reconstruction that can be right in the Reconstruction that can be right in the Reconstruction that can be a hope to other churches a hope to other churches a hope to other churches yeah I think I think the Church of yeah I think I think the Church of yeah I think I think the Church of England and the other churches in England and the other churches in England and the other churches in England have uh steadily taken more and England have uh steadily taken more and England have uh steadily taken more and more on board what I would Loosely call more on board what I would Loosely call more on board what I would Loosely call the kingdom of God agenda that is to say the kingdom of God agenda that is to say the kingdom of God agenda that is to say um that we are not simply about um that we are not simply about um that we are not simply about preparing souls for heaven and by the preparing souls for heaven and by the preparing souls for heaven and by the way you mentioned John ortberg's thing way you mentioned John ortberg's thing way you mentioned John ortberg's thing about eternity before eternity is a word about eternity before eternity is a word about eternity before eternity is a word I don't use now because it smacks of I don't use now because it smacks of I don't use now because it smacks of platonism of a Timeless eternity I know platonism of a Timeless eternity I know platonism of a Timeless eternity I know I know I know John alberg I know what he I know I know John alberg I know what he I know I know John alberg I know what he meant by it but but I'm delighted to say meant by it but but I'm delighted to say meant by it but but I'm delighted to say that many British churches have embraced that many British churches have embraced that many British churches have embraced the vision of God's kingdom coming on the vision of God's kingdom coming on the vision of God's kingdom coming on Earth as in heaven and are saying what Earth as in heaven and are saying what Earth as in heaven and are saying what does this mean on the street in does this mean on the street in does this mean on the street in Newcastle or Manchester or Birmingham or

Newcastle or Manchester or Birmingham or Newcastle or Manchester or Birmingham or wherever it is um likewise the wherever it is um likewise the wherever it is um likewise the charismatic movement which came up like charismatic movement which came up like charismatic movement which came up like an unexpected plant in the late 1960s an unexpected plant in the late 1960s an unexpected plant in the late 1960s and was very controversial to begin with and was very controversial to begin with and was very controversial to begin with because it was all about speaking in because it was all about speaking in because it was all about speaking in tongues and doing Miracles um well it's tongues and doing Miracles um well it's tongues and doing Miracles um well it's those haven't gone away and I'm those haven't gone away and I'm those haven't gone away and I'm delighted with that because God can do delighted with that because God can do delighted with that because God can do all sorts of things in all sorts of ways all sorts of things in all sorts of ways all sorts of things in all sorts of ways but what that has done is it taught but what that has done is it taught but what that has done is it taught churches not just in the traditional churches not just in the traditional churches not just in the traditional Pentecostal stream but much more broadly Pentecostal stream but much more broadly Pentecostal stream but much more broadly that God cares about bodies and if God that God cares about bodies and if God that God cares about bodies and if God cares about bodies maybe God cares about cares about bodies maybe God cares about cares about bodies maybe God cares about where these bodies live and what else is where these bodies live and what else is where these bodies live and what else is going on on their street and why these going on on their street and why these going on on their street and why these people are hungry and those people are people are hungry and those people are people are hungry and those people are overfed and so on and so that has helped overfed and so on and so that has helped overfed and so on and so that has helped the rise of a kingdom oriented society the rise of a kingdom oriented society the rise of a kingdom oriented society and the renewal has sometimes taken and the renewal has sometimes taken and the renewal has sometimes taken trivial forms I mean some of the uh the trivial forms I mean some of the uh the trivial forms I mean some of the uh the songs and the style of worship it seems songs and the style of worship it seems songs and the style of worship it seems to me have become very trivial um though to me have become very trivial um though to me have become very trivial um though there's been some very good stuff as there's been some very good stuff as there's been some very good stuff as well but in the middle of it all there well but in the middle of it all there well but in the middle of it all there are people um more and more and I see are people um more and more and I see are people um more and more and I see this you know I teach parttime at this you know I teach parttime at this you know I teach parttime at wickliff Hall one of the seminaries here wickliff Hall one of the seminaries here wickliff Hall one of the seminaries here in Oxford and a lot of our intake of in Oxford and a lot of our intake of in Oxford and a lot of our intake of people coming forward for ordination people coming forward for ordination people coming forward for ordination come out of the H Brom or the come out of the H Brom or the come out of the H Brom or the charismatic stream and even if they charismatic stream and even if they charismatic stream and even if they don't know very much about classic don't know very much about classic don't know very much about classic anglicanism they have the heart of the anglicanism they have the heart of the anglicanism they have the heart of the matter in them and the Heart of the matter in them and the Heart of the matter in them and the Heart of the matter is the Kingdom Heart the the fact matter is the Kingdom Heart the the fact matter is the Kingdom Heart the the fact that God is King and Jesus is Lord and that God is King and Jesus is Lord and that God is King and Jesus is Lord and he wants this to become a reality on

he wants this to become a reality on he wants this to become a reality on Earth as in heaven and they're prepared Earth as in heaven and they're prepared Earth as in heaven and they're prepared to put their shoulder to the wheel and to put their shoulder to the wheel and to put their shoulder to the wheel and say okay we're up for this now we need say okay we're up for this now we need say okay we're up for this now we need to learn we need to pray we need to get to learn we need to pray we need to get to learn we need to pray we need to get together um and that that is that is together um and that that is that is together um and that that is that is enormously encouraging and it goes with enormously encouraging and it goes with enormously encouraging and it goes with the discouragements of the great the discouragements of the great the discouragements of the great controversies that are rumbling along at controversies that are rumbling along at controversies that are rumbling along at the moment which which sometimes seem to the moment which which sometimes seem to the moment which which sometimes seem to sap our energy and maybe it's all maybe sap our energy and maybe it's all maybe sap our energy and maybe it's all maybe it's always like that we're going it's always like that we're going it's always like that we're going forward on one thing and danger in forward on one thing and danger in forward on one thing and danger in danger of being pulled back on another danger of being pulled back on another danger of being pulled back on another there's an embodiment of what you just there's an embodiment of what you just there's an embodiment of what you just described that I've picked up and it's a described that I've picked up and it's a described that I've picked up and it's a great articulation of it okay last great articulation of it okay last great articulation of it okay last question this one's not trivial it's question this one's not trivial it's question this one's not trivial it's it's it's toward a Deeper Life which I it's it's toward a Deeper Life which I it's it's toward a Deeper Life which I am you know in these next few decades am you know in these next few decades am you know in these next few decades ahead more and more interested in in ahead more and more interested in in ahead more and more interested in in every day um is it true I think I've every day um is it true I think I've every day um is it true I think I've heard you say that you when you read the heard you say that you when you read the heard you say that you when you read the Bible you read it in the Greek and in Bible you read it in the Greek and in Bible you read it in the Greek and in the Hebrew is that right is is that what the Hebrew is that right is is that what the Hebrew is that right is is that what you do generally yeah yeah can you just you do generally yeah yeah can you just you do generally yeah yeah can you just explain how you have developed that over explain how you have developed that over explain how you have developed that over the years I mean obviously you went to the years I mean obviously you went to the years I mean obviously you went to Seminary but would love to know well I I Seminary but would love to know well I I Seminary but would love to know well I I was very fortunate in that I was able to was very fortunate in that I was able to was very fortunate in that I was able to study Greek from the age of 13 um study Greek from the age of 13 um study Greek from the age of 13 um actually it was tough because I joined a actually it was tough because I joined a actually it was tough because I joined a class that had been studying it from the class that had been studying it from the class that had been studying it from the age of 11 so I had to catch up two years age of 11 so I had to catch up two years age of 11 so I had to catch up two years of of of work and I still remember the sweat of work and I still remember the sweat of work and I still remember the sweat of learning irregular verbs and so on but learning irregular verbs and so on but learning irregular verbs and so on but it meant that by the time I was in my it meant that by the time I was in my it meant that by the time I was in my late teens I was able then to study late teens I was able then to study late teens I was able then to study Classics degree level here in Oxford um Classics degree level here in Oxford um Classics degree level here in Oxford um which is where again for theth time all which is where again for theth time all which is where again for theth time all those classical books at the back of the

those classical books at the back of the those classical books at the back of the room so reading Plato in Greek and and room so reading Plato in Greek and and room so reading Plato in Greek and and Homer in Greek Plato and Aristotle were Homer in Greek Plato and Aristotle were Homer in Greek Plato and Aristotle were were what I sort of cut my intellectual were what I sort of cut my intellectual were what I sort of cut my intellectual teeth on as well as Herodotus and thees teeth on as well as Herodotus and thees teeth on as well as Herodotus and thees and then the great Latin orthus cicerone and then the great Latin orthus cicerone and then the great Latin orthus cicerone and senica and tacitus and so on um but and senica and tacitus and so on um but and senica and tacitus and so on um but then then I started then then I started then then I started Hebrew in my uh late teens here in Hebrew in my uh late teens here in Hebrew in my uh late teens here in Oxford and um I didn't do too many years Oxford and um I didn't do too many years Oxford and um I didn't do too many years of Hebrew but I decided that I wanted to of Hebrew but I decided that I wanted to of Hebrew but I decided that I wanted to carry on and I forced myself to read a carry on and I forced myself to read a carry on and I forced myself to read a little bit each day um and whenever I little bit each day um and whenever I little bit each day um and whenever I was studying a bit of the Old Testament was studying a bit of the Old Testament was studying a bit of the Old Testament I would have the Hebrew text open and I would have the Hebrew text open and I would have the Hebrew text open and make sure I was following along and make sure I was following along and make sure I was following along and Hebrew is quite difficult in some Hebrew is quite difficult in some Hebrew is quite difficult in some respects um there there are some bits respects um there there are some bits respects um there there are some bits which are compar ably easy but the which are compar ably easy but the which are compar ably easy but the Poetry particularly in the prophets uses Poetry particularly in the prophets uses Poetry particularly in the prophets uses a lot of words which uh you know only a lot of words which uh you know only a lot of words which uh you know only occur once or possibly twice in the occur once or possibly twice in the occur once or possibly twice in the Hebrew Bible and and I just haven't got Hebrew Bible and and I just haven't got Hebrew Bible and and I just haven't got all that vocabulary in my head but all that vocabulary in my head but all that vocabulary in my head but basically I can see where it's going and basically I can see where it's going and basically I can see where it's going and the pros books and the Psalms I love the the pros books and the Psalms I love the the pros books and the Psalms I love the Psalms in Hebrew and I pray through the Psalms in Hebrew and I pray through the Psalms in Hebrew and I pray through the Psalms on a day-by-day basis in using Psalms on a day-by-day basis in using Psalms on a day-by-day basis in using the Hebrew text um and I've been doing the Hebrew text um and I've been doing the Hebrew text um and I've been doing that for the last 52 53 years and um it that for the last 52 53 years and um it that for the last 52 53 years and um it you know that's been been part of my you know that's been been part of my you know that's been been part of my daily routine likewise with the Greek daily routine likewise with the Greek daily routine likewise with the Greek New Testament I basically read it um by New Testament I basically read it um by New Testament I basically read it um by rotation so that every day God willing I rotation so that every day God willing I rotation so that every day God willing I read a chapter or half a chapter from read a chapter or half a chapter from read a chapter or half a chapter from acts Epistles apocalypse and a chapter acts Epistles apocalypse and a chapter acts Epistles apocalypse and a chapter or half a chapter from the gospels and

or half a chapter from the gospels and or half a chapter from the gospels and those two are just going on all the time those two are just going on all the time those two are just going on all the time um so that I'm never more than a few um so that I'm never more than a few um so that I'm never more than a few months away from having read this bit or months away from having read this bit or months away from having read this bit or that bit um in the original and I've that bit um in the original and I've that bit um in the original and I've just seen that as part of part of my just seen that as part of part of my just seen that as part of part of my vocation as a Christian as a priest as a vocation as a Christian as a priest as a vocation as a Christian as a priest as a bishop as a scholar um and uh you know bishop as a scholar um and uh you know bishop as a scholar um and uh you know constantly keeping the thing polished up constantly keeping the thing polished up constantly keeping the thing polished up and the thing and the thing and the thing is time and again time and again I see is time and again time and again I see is time and again time and again I see things that I would swear weren't there things that I would swear weren't there things that I would swear weren't there the time before you know things jump off the time before you know things jump off the time before you know things jump off the page where did that come from the page where did that come from the page where did that come from because I am changing I am learning God because I am changing I am learning God because I am changing I am learning God willing I am growing and suddenly I see willing I am growing and suddenly I see willing I am growing and suddenly I see a meaning in this text and I can apply a meaning in this text and I can apply a meaning in this text and I can apply it to myself and pray it in and maybe it to myself and pray it in and maybe it to myself and pray it in and maybe turn it into a sermon or whatever ever turn it into a sermon or whatever ever turn it into a sermon or whatever ever um and that's been my lifelong habit and um and that's been my lifelong habit and um and that's been my lifelong habit and I suppose in my mid-70s I'm allowed to I suppose in my mid-70s I'm allowed to I suppose in my mid-70s I'm allowed to say that something's been a lifelong say that something's been a lifelong say that something's been a lifelong habit yeah you you are you definitely habit yeah you you are you definitely habit yeah you you are you definitely are thank you so much you know it's are thank you so much you know it's are thank you so much you know it's convicting I I won the prize in Greek I convicting I I won the prize in Greek I convicting I I won the prize in Greek I never did study Hebrew but uh I let it never did study Hebrew but uh I let it never did study Hebrew but uh I let it go and I've got to I've got to resurrect go and I've got to I've got to resurrect go and I've got to I've got to resurrect it I mean I can pull it out when I'm it I mean I can pull it out when I'm it I mean I can pull it out when I'm doing that to Jesus but you know it's doing that to Jesus but you know it's doing that to Jesus but you know it's it's uh it's very convicting and I think it's uh it's very convicting and I think it's uh it's very convicting and I think you know the reason I asked the question you know the reason I asked the question you know the reason I asked the question Tom is I think we need more of that the Tom is I think we need more of that the Tom is I think we need more of that the Next Generation not less of oh yeah Next Generation not less of oh yeah Next Generation not less of oh yeah because otherwise if people are not because otherwise if people are not because otherwise if people are not doing that it's very easy for doing that it's very easy for doing that it's very easy for misinterpretations and wrong Impressions misinterpretations and wrong Impressions misinterpretations and wrong Impressions to slide in to the discourse of the to slide in to the discourse of the to slide in to the discourse of the church um which is why I mean you'll church um which is why I mean you'll church um which is why I mean you'll know that I recently published the Third

know that I recently published the Third know that I recently published the Third Edition of my own translation of the New Edition of my own translation of the New Edition of my own translation of the New Testament and when people say why do you Testament and when people say why do you Testament and when people say why do you do it well every generation's got to do do it well every generation's got to do do it well every generation's got to do this because the English language is this because the English language is this because the English language is changing and our understanding of the changing and our understanding of the changing and our understanding of the nuances of meaning are changing so we nuances of meaning are changing so we nuances of meaning are changing so we every generation has to have another every generation has to have another every generation has to have another shot at that um and that's been a great shot at that um and that's been a great shot at that um and that's been a great Delight though also quite a quite a Delight though also quite a quite a Delight though also quite a quite a solid labor as you may imagine well Tom solid labor as you may imagine well Tom solid labor as you may imagine well Tom uh I want to thank you so so much for uh I want to thank you so so much for uh I want to thank you so so much for your time today and you probably don't your time today and you probably don't your time today and you probably don't know what I'm going to say next but I'm know what I'm going to say next but I'm know what I'm going to say next but I'm just going to let leaders know uh well just going to let leaders know uh well just going to let leaders know uh well first of all your book latest book uh first of all your book latest book uh first of all your book latest book uh one of 85 is called Jesus and the powers one of 85 is called Jesus and the powers one of 85 is called Jesus and the powers it's available everywhere uh but you it's available everywhere uh but you it's available everywhere uh but you also have a um Institute faculty adir also have a um Institute faculty adir also have a um Institute faculty adir .org and uh we're going to give away 10 .org and uh we're going to give away 10 .org and uh we're going to give away 10 scholarships to ad.org valued at $200 scholarships to ad.org valued at $200 scholarships to ad.org valued at $200 each that's great so here's how each that's great so here's how each that's great so here's how listeners can enter to win uh this is listeners can enter to win uh this is listeners can enter to win uh this is I've I've been in the program it's I've I've been in the program it's I've I've been in the program it's amazing how many courses are there it's amazing how many courses are there it's amazing how many courses are there it's basically a seminary degree from uh NT basically a seminary degree from uh NT basically a seminary degree from uh NT WR and so here's what we're going to do WR and so here's what we're going to do WR and so here's what we're going to do share this episode on your favorite share this episode on your favorite share this episode on your favorite social platform wherever you're social platform wherever you're social platform wherever you're listening be sure to tag me you can also listening be sure to tag me you can also listening be sure to tag me you can also tag if you want uh and um when I post tag if you want uh and um when I post tag if you want uh and um when I post this episode graphic to my Instagram this episode graphic to my Instagram this episode graphic to my Instagram account I'm car newoff on Instagram account I'm car newoff on Instagram account I'm car newoff on Instagram leave a comment telling my team and me leave a comment telling my team and me leave a comment telling my team and me how the scholarship will impact your how the scholarship will impact your how the scholarship will impact your leadership 10 winners will be chosen leadership 10 winners will be chosen leadership 10 winners will be chosen September 12th so go to Instagram or September 12th so go to Instagram or September 12th so go to Instagram or whatever platform tag me leave a comment

whatever platform tag me leave a comment whatever platform tag me leave a comment telling me particularly on Instagram how telling me particularly on Instagram how telling me particularly on Instagram how this is going to benefit you uh using this is going to benefit you uh using this is going to benefit you uh using Tom scholarship 10 winners will be Tom scholarship 10 winners will be Tom scholarship 10 winners will be chosen September 12th so that's our gift chosen September 12th so that's our gift chosen September 12th so that's our gift to listen ERS and thank you for your to listen ERS and thank you for your to listen ERS and thank you for your gift to the church to me and to gift to the church to me and to gift to the church to me and to generations of leaders thank you thank generations of leaders thank you thank generations of leaders thank you thank you very much I'm delighted what you're you very much I'm delighted what you're you very much I'm delighted what you're doing with admir it's been an exciting doing with admir it's been an exciting doing with admir it's been an exciting Journey which I did not expect at my age Journey which I did not expect at my age Journey which I did not expect at my age to be doing but uh my colleagues who've to be doing but uh my colleagues who've to be doing but uh my colleagues who've set it all up um it's been great all I set it all up um it's been great all I set it all up um it's been great all I do is talking to the camera um and then do is talking to the camera um and then do is talking to the camera um and then they take it away edit it turn it into they take it away edit it turn it into they take it away edit it turn it into courses and and put it out there so I I courses and and put it out there so I I courses and and put it out there so I I am in awe of what is possible these days am in awe of what is possible these days am in awe of what is possible these days so it's been terrific well if you want so it's been terrific well if you want so it's been terrific well if you want to sit under some great teaching it's a to sit under some great teaching it's a to sit under some great teaching it's a great way to do that Tom I want to thank great way to do that Tom I want to thank great way to do that Tom I want to thank you for your generosity of time for your you for your generosity of time for your you for your generosity of time for your Insight there's so much to Maul over and Insight there's so much to Maul over and Insight there's so much to Maul over and this will be a conversation I come back this will be a conversation I come back this will be a conversation I come back to again and again thank you thank you to again and again thank you thank you to again and again thank you thank you very much indeed thank you