How the Modern Church Was Shaped: The Seminary Class Every Church Leader Actually Needs

And in Hibel's words, I mean, he's just And in Hibel's words, I mean, he's just a young kid. We don't have any money. a young kid. We don't have any money. a young kid. We don't have any money. And he went out and they visited And he went out and they visited And he went out and they visited Scheler. And Scheler let him come up to Scheler. And Scheler let him come up to Scheler. And Scheler let him come up to the office and they had a conversation the office and they had a conversation the office and they had a conversation where I'm going to paraphrase here, but where I'm going to paraphrase here, but where I'm going to paraphrase here, but Schuler basically said to him, "Give God Schuler basically said to him, "Give God Schuler basically said to him, "Give God a thimble and he might fill it. Give God a thimble and he might fill it. Give God a thimble and he might fill it. Give God a five gallallon bucket and he might a five gallallon bucket and he might a five gallallon bucket and he might fill that. Give God a 55gallon drum and fill that. Give God a 55gallon drum and fill that. Give God a 55gallon drum and you might see some really cool things you might see some really cool things you might see some really cool things happen." And it was Schuler who happen." And it was Schuler who happen." And it was Schuler who challenged Hibil's think big. You got to challenged Hibil's think big. You got to challenged Hibil's think big. You got to think really big and in a both a good think really big and in a both a good think really big and in a both a good way and a bad way. Now Carrie, way and a bad way. Now Carrie, way and a bad way. Now Carrie, >> welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. Man, I'm so excited leadership podcast. Man, I'm so excited leadership podcast. Man, I'm so excited about this episode. Okay, it's a little about this episode. Okay, it's a little about this episode. Okay, it's a little bit nerdy and uh I think that's okay bit nerdy and uh I think that's okay bit nerdy and uh I think that's okay because when I talk to Todd Wilson about because when I talk to Todd Wilson about because when I talk to Todd Wilson about this project he's been working on for this project he's been working on for this project he's been working on for years, I'm like, where was this when I years, I'm like, where was this when I years, I'm like, where was this when I needed it? It's the history of the needed it? It's the history of the needed it? It's the history of the church growth movement over the last 70 church growth movement over the last 70 church growth movement over the last 70 years. Uh you know from its origins to years. Uh you know from its origins to years. Uh you know from its origins to seeker sensitive seeker sensitive seeker sensitive attractional missional emerging church.

attractional missional emerging church. attractional missional emerging church. I mean the whole thing over the last 70 I mean the whole thing over the last 70 I mean the whole thing over the last 70 years. And why this is so important to years. And why this is so important to years. And why this is so important to me is this is basically the church you me is this is basically the church you me is this is basically the church you ended up leading. I picked up with this ended up leading. I picked up with this ended up leading. I picked up with this in the '90s midstream. You probably in the '90s midstream. You probably in the '90s midstream. You probably picked up on it, you know, a lot later picked up on it, you know, a lot later picked up on it, you know, a lot later than I did. you got into church than I did. you got into church than I did. you got into church leadership in the 2010s or even in the leadership in the 2010s or even in the leadership in the 2010s or even in the 2020s and you don't fully understand the 2020s and you don't fully understand the 2020s and you don't fully understand the model that you're operating in. Well, we model that you're operating in. Well, we model that you're operating in. Well, we go two hours on this. So, uh I take my go two hours on this. So, uh I take my go two hours on this. So, uh I take my church history nerd hat and uh consider church history nerd hat and uh consider church history nerd hat and uh consider this the seminary class you never got. this the seminary class you never got. this the seminary class you never got. Okay. Todd Wilson is with me. He is an Okay. Todd Wilson is with me. He is an Okay. Todd Wilson is with me. He is an entrepreneurial engineer who has spent entrepreneurial engineer who has spent entrepreneurial engineer who has spent more than two decades helping to shape more than two decades helping to shape more than two decades helping to shape the modern church in North America. He's the modern church in North America. He's the modern church in North America. He's founded or co-founded several founded or co-founded several founded or co-founded several influential organizations including influential organizations including influential organizations including exponential passion for planting and exponential passion for planting and exponential passion for planting and multipliers has written numerous books multipliers has written numerous books multipliers has written numerous books and his latest is what we explore right and his latest is what we explore right and his latest is what we explore right now. So you might want to take your now. So you might want to take your now. So you might want to take your whole team through this. I know it's 2 whole team through this. I know it's 2 whole team through this. I know it's 2 hours, but I really enjoyed this. And uh hours, but I really enjoyed this. And uh hours, but I really enjoyed this. And uh we talk about the pros and the cons of we talk about the pros and the cons of we talk about the pros and the cons of large churches, church growth, what's large churches, church growth, what's large churches, church growth, what's positive about the model, what's positive about the model, what's positive about the model, what's negative about the model, all the negative about the model, all the negative about the model, all the different phases, and at the end, it's different phases, and at the end, it's different phases, and at the end, it's sort of like that map you come to in the sort of like that map you come to in the sort of like that map you come to in the subway or in a city. It's like you are subway or in a city. It's like you are subway or in a city. It's like you are here. This shows you how you got here.

here. This shows you how you got here. here. This shows you how you got here. So, I hope you enjoy as much as I do So, I hope you enjoy as much as I do So, I hope you enjoy as much as I do this episode of the podcast with Todd this episode of the podcast with Todd this episode of the podcast with Todd Wilson. Todd, you have come out of a Wilson. Todd, you have come out of a Wilson. Todd, you have come out of a rabbit hole uh that you've been in for rabbit hole uh that you've been in for rabbit hole uh that you've been in for how long now to give us a definitive how long now to give us a definitive how long now to give us a definitive history of the church growth movement, history of the church growth movement, history of the church growth movement, which I am so grateful for, man. Tell us which I am so grateful for, man. Tell us which I am so grateful for, man. Tell us like there is no book that I'm aware of like there is no book that I'm aware of like there is no book that I'm aware of like this that you just wrote and uh like this that you just wrote and uh like this that you just wrote and uh you've been away from friends and family you've been away from friends and family you've been away from friends and family and sunlight for how long to do this and sunlight for how long to do this and sunlight for how long to do this project? project? project? >> It's not been full-time, but I've spent >> It's not been full-time, but I've spent >> It's not been full-time, but I've spent two years on this project here. It's uh two years on this project here. It's uh two years on this project here. It's uh over a 100red hours of interviews with over a 100red hours of interviews with over a 100red hours of interviews with people. I mean, it's been a massive people. I mean, it's been a massive people. I mean, it's been a massive project. project. project. >> Yeah. Yeah. What What's What made you >> Yeah. Yeah. What What's What made you >> Yeah. Yeah. What What's What made you Cuz I was saying to to you before we Cuz I was saying to to you before we Cuz I was saying to to you before we started recording, started recording, started recording, like I grew up in a Christian family like I grew up in a Christian family like I grew up in a Christian family reading the Bible, all that kind of reading the Bible, all that kind of reading the Bible, all that kind of stuff. But it was really when I went to stuff. But it was really when I went to stuff. But it was really when I went to seminary for the first time because I seminary for the first time because I seminary for the first time because I kind of knew Moses, Noah, David, the kind of knew Moses, Noah, David, the kind of knew Moses, Noah, David, the prophets, Isaiah, but I didn't know the prophets, Isaiah, but I didn't know the prophets, Isaiah, but I didn't know the order. And when I took my first Old order. And when I took my first Old order. And when I took my first Old Testament survey course, just intro to Testament survey course, just intro to Testament survey course, just intro to OT at seminary, that's when I'm like, OT at seminary, that's when I'm like, OT at seminary, that's when I'm like, "Oh, Noah was before Abraham was before "Oh, Noah was before Abraham was before "Oh, Noah was before Abraham was before Moses and this connected and then they Moses and this connected and then they Moses and this connected and then they were here and then they were there."

were here and then they were there." were here and then they were there." Like the whole story made sense. And I Like the whole story made sense. And I Like the whole story made sense. And I feel like you have taken in this project feel like you have taken in this project feel like you have taken in this project all these little names and ideas and all these little names and ideas and all these little names and ideas and movements and points in time that I was movements and points in time that I was movements and points in time that I was vaguely aware of or specifically aware vaguely aware of or specifically aware vaguely aware of or specifically aware of and connected them together in a way of and connected them together in a way of and connected them together in a way that helps me understand church growth. that helps me understand church growth. that helps me understand church growth. And honestly what I do because sometimes And honestly what I do because sometimes And honestly what I do because sometimes people say, "Well, you're the church people say, "Well, you're the church people say, "Well, you're the church growth guy." I'm like, "Yeah, that's I I growth guy." I'm like, "Yeah, that's I I growth guy." I'm like, "Yeah, that's I I think every pastor my theory is every think every pastor my theory is every think every pastor my theory is every pastor wants their church to grow. I pastor wants their church to grow. I pastor wants their church to grow. I don't know anybody who wants to close a don't know anybody who wants to close a don't know anybody who wants to close a church. If you do, I don't know what's church. If you do, I don't know what's church. If you do, I don't know what's wrong with you and I don't know how to wrong with you and I don't know how to wrong with you and I don't know how to help you. But to see this over 70 years help you. But to see this over 70 years help you. But to see this over 70 years has just been life-giving to me. So, how has just been life-giving to me. So, how has just been life-giving to me. So, how did it come about, Todd? did it come about, Todd? did it come about, Todd? >> Yeah. And Carrie, there there were a >> Yeah. And Carrie, there there were a >> Yeah. And Carrie, there there were a couple of converging paths. It was not couple of converging paths. It was not couple of converging paths. It was not some grandmaster strategic plan in my some grandmaster strategic plan in my some grandmaster strategic plan in my life to do. It was a little bit by life to do. It was a little bit by life to do. It was a little bit by accident and a couple of things accident and a couple of things accident and a couple of things converged. Um a lot of people talk about converged. Um a lot of people talk about converged. Um a lot of people talk about you know getting the argument of church you know getting the argument of church you know getting the argument of church health and church growth and healthy health and church growth and healthy health and church growth and healthy things grow or don't grow and my things grow or don't grow and my things grow or don't grow and my framework comes a little bit different framework comes a little bit different framework comes a little bit different having spent the last 20 years in the having spent the last 20 years in the having spent the last 20 years in the church planting and multiplication space church planting and multiplication space church planting and multiplication space which is more you know growth is an which is more you know growth is an which is more you know growth is an important thing who doesn't want to grow important thing who doesn't want to grow important thing who doesn't want to grow if you can grow like of course you want if you can grow like of course you want if you can grow like of course you want to grow the issue is not all things that to grow the issue is not all things that to grow the issue is not all things that can grow can reproduce and multiply can grow can reproduce and multiply can grow can reproduce and multiply >> right and that's exponential your time >> right and that's exponential your time >> right and that's exponential your time with them with them with them >> background with exponential and the >> background with exponential and the >> background with exponential and the founder co-founder there. And so I came founder co-founder there. And so I came founder co-founder there. And so I came into my first lens coming in was the into my first lens coming in was the into my first lens coming in was the burden that we have an operating system

burden that we have an operating system burden that we have an operating system in the church today that that is in the church today that that is in the church today that that is optimized for growth. And there's a lot optimized for growth. And there's a lot optimized for growth. And there's a lot of good things about that, but it's not of good things about that, but it's not of good things about that, but it's not capable of reproduction in biblical capable of reproduction in biblical capable of reproduction in biblical multiplication. And I've given my life multiplication. And I've given my life multiplication. And I've given my life to the mission of the church planting to the mission of the church planting to the mission of the church planting and multiplication piece. So I started and multiplication piece. So I started and multiplication piece. So I started writing writing writing a different book than this one which as a different book than this one which as a different book than this one which as an engineer was everybody talks about an engineer was everybody talks about an engineer was everybody talks about models but what we never talk about is models but what we never talk about is models but what we never talk about is the underlying operating system. the underlying operating system. the underlying operating system. >> Okay. I remember those texts from a >> Okay. I remember those texts from a >> Okay. I remember those texts from a couple years ago where you're like I couple years ago where you're like I couple years ago where you're like I want to write a book about the church want to write a book about the church want to write a book about the church OS. I I'll be honest with you publicly I OS. I I'll be honest with you publicly I OS. I I'll be honest with you publicly I never quite understood what you were never quite understood what you were never quite understood what you were talking about but I'm just like yeah talking about but I'm just like yeah talking about but I'm just like yeah Todd way to go man. That was a couple of Todd way to go man. That was a couple of Todd way to go man. That was a couple of years ago, Carrie. And I was I was 50% years ago, Carrie. And I was I was 50% years ago, Carrie. And I was I was 50% of the way through that book. I mean, of the way through that book. I mean, of the way through that book. I mean, and that book and that book and that book >> I think you sent me fragments of it. >> I think you sent me fragments of it. >> I think you sent me fragments of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. And that book was simply >> Right. And that book was simply >> Right. And that book was simply dissecting our current church operating dissecting our current church operating dissecting our current church operating system, what I call the consumer-driven system, what I call the consumer-driven system, what I call the consumer-driven operating system to just help expose and operating system to just help expose and operating system to just help expose and help people shake their head. Yes. Yes. help people shake their head. Yes. Yes. help people shake their head. Yes. Yes. That's Oh, I get it. I get it. I get it.

That's Oh, I get it. I get it. I get it. That's Oh, I get it. I get it. I get it. And as I was doing that, we had about And as I was doing that, we had about And as I was doing that, we had about 50% finished with the book. And it 50% finished with the book. And it 50% finished with the book. And it started feeling heavy. And I thought, started feeling heavy. And I thought, started feeling heavy. And I thought, >> all right, I need to stick in a rahrh >> all right, I need to stick in a rahrh >> all right, I need to stick in a rahrh chapter on the history of the church chapter on the history of the church chapter on the history of the church growth movement. Like, I'm going to growth movement. Like, I'm going to growth movement. Like, I'm going to stick a chapter in the middle of this stick a chapter in the middle of this stick a chapter in the middle of this heavy book that really celebrates how heavy book that really celebrates how heavy book that really celebrates how eternity is different because of the eternity is different because of the eternity is different because of the modern church growth movement. And I modern church growth movement. And I modern church growth movement. And I just assumed with my background growing just assumed with my background growing just assumed with my background growing up in the seeker era and then going into up in the seeker era and then going into up in the seeker era and then going into full-time ministry and being part of all full-time ministry and being part of all full-time ministry and being part of all the different things, oh, this will take the different things, oh, this will take the different things, oh, this will take me a week or two and I'll have that me a week or two and I'll have that me a week or two and I'll have that chapter done and on, you know, back into chapter done and on, you know, back into chapter done and on, you know, back into the book again. And Carrie, it's like my the book again. And Carrie, it's like my the book again. And Carrie, it's like my eyes were open. I really thought I eyes were open. I really thought I eyes were open. I really thought I understood it all. And as I started understood it all. And as I started understood it all. And as I started writing, what was supposed to be one writing, what was supposed to be one writing, what was supposed to be one chapter became the length of two and chapter became the length of two and chapter became the length of two and then three and four and five. And before then three and four and five. And before then three and four and five. And before you knew it, it I'm almost broaching you knew it, it I'm almost broaching you knew it, it I'm almost broaching into a an actual fulllength book as I'm into a an actual fulllength book as I'm into a an actual fulllength book as I'm starting to write. And as that happened starting to write. And as that happened starting to write. And as that happened and I'm talking to other people about and I'm talking to other people about and I'm talking to other people about the book, the book, the book, >> I started to realize um when I'd talk to >> I started to realize um when I'd talk to >> I started to realize um when I'd talk to younger leaders, they'd be like, "Oh, younger leaders, they'd be like, "Oh, younger leaders, they'd be like, "Oh, purpose- driven. Yeah, I' I've heard of purpose- driven. Yeah, I' I've heard of purpose- driven. Yeah, I' I've heard of that baseball diamond thing. Like there that baseball diamond thing. Like there that baseball diamond thing. Like there was some bases. I don't really know what was some bases. I don't really know what was some bases. I don't really know what that is." And I'm realizing there's an that is." And I'm realizing there's an that is." And I'm realizing there's an entire generation of leaders right now entire generation of leaders right now entire generation of leaders right now that some of the things that us older that some of the things that us older that some of the things that us older builders take for, you know, take for builders take for, you know, take for builders take for, you know, take for granted, the emerging generation doesn't granted, the emerging generation doesn't granted, the emerging generation doesn't know what it not even where it know what it not even where it know what it not even where it >> Yeah. They they sometimes weren't born.

>> Yeah. They they sometimes weren't born. >> Yeah. They they sometimes weren't born. >> They weren't born. >> They weren't born. >> They weren't born. >> Saddleback was doing that stuff, >> Saddleback was doing that stuff, >> Saddleback was doing that stuff, >> right? Saddleback Sam and Samantha. >> right? Saddleback Sam and Samantha. >> right? Saddleback Sam and Samantha. Like, okay, that's a nice acronym for Like, okay, that's a nice acronym for Like, okay, that's a nice acronym for something. Well, the other thing that's something. Well, the other thing that's something. Well, the other thing that's true, Todd, is like in my experience, a true, Todd, is like in my experience, a true, Todd, is like in my experience, a lot of people don't like if you say lot of people don't like if you say lot of people don't like if you say church growth, there's an immediate church growth, there's an immediate church growth, there's an immediate suspicion. There's an immediate like, suspicion. There's an immediate like, suspicion. There's an immediate like, oh, I don't think that's good. I don't oh, I don't think that's good. I don't oh, I don't think that's good. I don't think that's healthy. We don't need, you think that's healthy. We don't need, you think that's healthy. We don't need, you know, cancers grow. That's what people know, cancers grow. That's what people know, cancers grow. That's what people get. So, the whole church growth get. So, the whole church growth get. So, the whole church growth movement, at least in in a lot of the movement, at least in in a lot of the movement, at least in in a lot of the conversations I have, sort of has that conversations I have, sort of has that conversations I have, sort of has that hermeneutic of suspicion that like, nah, hermeneutic of suspicion that like, nah, hermeneutic of suspicion that like, nah, we don't really do it. And yet, here's we don't really do it. And yet, here's we don't really do it. And yet, here's here's the reality. Anytime I post here's the reality. Anytime I post here's the reality. Anytime I post something about how your church should something about how your church should something about how your church should grow, people eat it up. They love it. grow, people eat it up. They love it. grow, people eat it up. They love it. Like again, nobody wants their church to Like again, nobody wants their church to Like again, nobody wants their church to fail. But the church growth movement fail. But the church growth movement fail. But the church growth movement sort of had a moment and then everyone's sort of had a moment and then everyone's sort of had a moment and then everyone's like, "Ah, seeker sensitive, ah, seeker like, "Ah, seeker sensitive, ah, seeker like, "Ah, seeker sensitive, ah, seeker targeted, ah, now it's ah, targeted, ah, now it's ah, targeted, ah, now it's ah, attractional." Like that's all garbage. attractional." Like that's all garbage. attractional." Like that's all garbage. And we're blazing a trail that nobody And we're blazing a trail that nobody And we're blazing a trail that nobody has has blazed. But what I love about has has blazed. But what I love about has has blazed. But what I love about your project is I think it gives us your project is I think it gives us your project is I think it gives us another take to appreciate how we got another take to appreciate how we got another take to appreciate how we got here. And maybe it wasn't all terrible.

here. And maybe it wasn't all terrible. here. And maybe it wasn't all terrible. >> Oh, that's right, Carrie. It's I mean, >> Oh, that's right, Carrie. It's I mean, >> Oh, that's right, Carrie. It's I mean, we have to celebrate it. I I wouldn't be we have to celebrate it. I I wouldn't be we have to celebrate it. I I wouldn't be talking to you right now if it weren't talking to you right now if it weren't talking to you right now if it weren't for the the modern church growth for the the modern church growth for the the modern church growth movement. I became a Christian through movement. I became a Christian through movement. I became a Christian through it it it >> and served through it. So I I mean, I >> and served through it. So I I mean, I >> and served through it. So I I mean, I attribute it to my salvation, family attribute it to my salvation, family attribute it to my salvation, family members salvation, my kids' salvation. I members salvation, my kids' salvation. I members salvation, my kids' salvation. I mean I on one hand it's we got to mean I on one hand it's we got to mean I on one hand it's we got to celebrate it and on the other hand there celebrate it and on the other hand there celebrate it and on the other hand there are realities with now I'm going to go are realities with now I'm going to go are realities with now I'm going to go to the operating system part of it. to the operating system part of it. to the operating system part of it. >> Yeah. What started out in 1955 with >> Yeah. What started out in 1955 with >> Yeah. What started out in 1955 with Donald McGavvern as a set of ideals in Donald McGavvern as a set of ideals in Donald McGavvern as a set of ideals in church growth science, not movement, but church growth science, not movement, but church growth science, not movement, but in church growth science, ended up over in church growth science, ended up over in church growth science, ended up over the next 30, 40, 50 years getting the next 30, 40, 50 years getting the next 30, 40, 50 years getting co-opted into something in my opinion on co-opted into something in my opinion on co-opted into something in my opinion on looking at all this history that is looking at all this history that is looking at all this history that is different than what he started out with. different than what he started out with. different than what he started out with. We co-opted it into something else. And We co-opted it into something else. And We co-opted it into something else. And and so one quick thing when we say and so one quick thing when we say and so one quick thing when we say church growth movement, church growth movement, church growth movement, one of the things that was an eye one of the things that was an eye one of the things that was an eye openener to me, I've always just lumped openener to me, I've always just lumped openener to me, I've always just lumped everything I've experienced into the everything I've experienced into the everything I've experienced into the idea of church growth movement. But in idea of church growth movement. But in idea of church growth movement. But in reality, if we lined up 10 different reality, if we lined up 10 different reality, if we lined up 10 different people right now, I think we would all people right now, I think we would all people right now, I think we would all have different definitions even of what have different definitions even of what have different definitions even of what the church grow church growth movement the church grow church growth movement the church grow church growth movement is, of how it fits into history, is, of how it fits into history, is, of how it fits into history, >> right?

>> right? >> right? Yeah, I think that's right. So, you Yeah, I think that's right. So, you Yeah, I think that's right. So, you know, we do have a lot of young leaders know, we do have a lot of young leaders know, we do have a lot of young leaders listening for whom this is going to be listening for whom this is going to be listening for whom this is going to be new. They don't remember um you know, new. They don't remember um you know, new. They don't remember um you know, Willow Creek, Saddleback, the early days Willow Creek, Saddleback, the early days Willow Creek, Saddleback, the early days of Life Church, North Point, or going of Life Church, North Point, or going of Life Church, North Point, or going back even earlier than that, some other back even earlier than that, some other back even earlier than that, some other churches and other ministries. And as churches and other ministries. And as churches and other ministries. And as you say, this kind of goes back to the you say, this kind of goes back to the you say, this kind of goes back to the mid 1950s mid 1950s mid 1950s with a guy named Donald McGavvern. And with a guy named Donald McGavvern. And with a guy named Donald McGavvern. And he started because ironically I didn't he started because ironically I didn't he started because ironically I didn't know this didn't know mo much about him. know this didn't know mo much about him. know this didn't know mo much about him. Uh your book really helped me but it Uh your book really helped me but it Uh your book really helped me but it came out of like India and a mission came out of like India and a mission came out of like India and a mission program to try to evangelize India this program to try to evangelize India this program to try to evangelize India this whole like church growth thing. So let's whole like church growth thing. So let's whole like church growth thing. So let's go back to the roots and this is not go back to the roots and this is not go back to the roots and this is not like everybody got eastern spirituality. like everybody got eastern spirituality. like everybody got eastern spirituality. This is a very different like Lesnie This is a very different like Lesnie This is a very different like Lesnie Nubigan right? He got he cut his teeth Nubigan right? He got he cut his teeth Nubigan right? He got he cut his teeth on the mission field in India too. So, on the mission field in India too. So, on the mission field in India too. So, let's go there and just help people let's go there and just help people let's go there and just help people understand because literally and just understand because literally and just understand because literally and just I'm going to frame this one more time I'm going to frame this one more time I'm going to frame this one more time and then I'm going to shut up. Your and then I'm going to shut up. Your and then I'm going to shut up. Your church is a product of what we're going church is a product of what we're going church is a product of what we're going to talk about in this episode 100%. If to talk about in this episode 100%. If to talk about in this episode 100%. If you're evangelical, you care about you're evangelical, you care about you're evangelical, you care about reaching people. Uh you're somewhere in reaching people. Uh you're somewhere in reaching people. Uh you're somewhere in the west and particularly in the US the west and particularly in the US the west and particularly in the US where most of our audience is, you have where most of our audience is, you have where most of our audience is, you have been impacted by what we're going to been impacted by what we're going to been impacted by what we're going to talk about and understanding it is going talk about and understanding it is going talk about and understanding it is going to make you a better leader. Y and I to make you a better leader. Y and I to make you a better leader. Y and I would amplify Carrie. You know, one of would amplify Carrie. You know, one of would amplify Carrie. You know, one of the top questions people are asking is the top questions people are asking is the top questions people are asking is why the book's named the way it is. How why the book's named the way it is. How why the book's named the way it is. How did we get here?

did we get here? did we get here? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Some people are asking that question >> Some people are asking that question >> Some people are asking that question cynically. How in the world did we get cynically. How in the world did we get cynically. How in the world did we get here with all this division and all this here with all this division and all this here with all this division and all this chaos? And others are asking it chaos? And others are asking it chaos? And others are asking it innocently. Hey, how did we get here? innocently. Hey, how did we get here? innocently. Hey, how did we get here? Like, I really don't know how we got Like, I really don't know how we got Like, I really don't know how we got here. here. here. >> And and either path, it's important to >> And and either path, it's important to >> And and either path, it's important to go back. I mean, if we want to in some go back. I mean, if we want to in some go back. I mean, if we want to in some ways shape the future, we do need to go ways shape the future, we do need to go ways shape the future, we do need to go back and look at how in the world did we back and look at how in the world did we back and look at how in the world did we get where we're at. And it was an eye get where we're at. And it was an eye get where we're at. And it was an eye openener for me. I thought I knew a lot openener for me. I thought I knew a lot openener for me. I thought I knew a lot more than I did going back. Um, Donald more than I did going back. Um, Donald more than I did going back. Um, Donald McGavin, uh, I'm going to give some McGavin, uh, I'm going to give some McGavin, uh, I'm going to give some encouragement generationally here. encouragement generationally here. encouragement generationally here. First, Donald McGavin was born in 1897. First, Donald McGavin was born in 1897. First, Donald McGavin was born in 1897. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Part of the lost generation. We when was >> Part of the lost generation. We when was >> Part of the lost generation. We when was the last time you talked in one of your the last time you talked in one of your the last time you talked in one of your episodes about someone from the lost episodes about someone from the lost episodes about someone from the lost generation Gary? generation Gary? generation Gary? >> 799 episodes in and I think this is the >> 799 episodes in and I think this is the >> 799 episodes in and I think this is the first time. first time. first time. >> So here's the encouragement. Donald >> So here's the encouragement. Donald >> So here's the encouragement. Donald McGavvern who would be considered the McGavvern who would be considered the McGavvern who would be considered the father of what is now shaping all of our father of what is now shaping all of our father of what is now shaping all of our churches born in 1897 churches born in 1897 churches born in 1897 at age 61.

at age 61. at age 61. uh he came or I'm sorry at age 64 in in uh he came or I'm sorry at age 64 in in uh he came or I'm sorry at age 64 in in 1961 1961 1961 he came off the mission field back to he came off the mission field back to he came off the mission field back to the US to start a church growth the US to start a church growth the US to start a church growth institute to help international institute to help international institute to help international missionaries do better in church growth missionaries do better in church growth missionaries do better in church growth science. So let's just pause right science. So let's just pause right science. So let's just pause right there. He's he's a year or two away from there. He's he's a year or two away from there. He's he's a year or two away from retirement. retirement. retirement. He's already come off the mission field He's already come off the mission field He's already come off the mission field when he's catalyzing what he's about to when he's catalyzing what he's about to when he's catalyzing what he's about to do. That's 1961. do. That's 1961. do. That's 1961. By 1965, By 1965, By 1965, Fuller wanted to start their school of Fuller wanted to start their school of Fuller wanted to start their school of world missions and he had such a good world missions and he had such a good world missions and he had such a good reputation they recruited Donald reputation they recruited Donald reputation they recruited Donald McGavvern to be the founding dean of the McGavvern to be the founding dean of the McGavvern to be the founding dean of the of the uh school of world missions and of the uh school of world missions and of the uh school of world missions and he moved the church growth institute he moved the church growth institute he moved the church growth institute then to Fuller in 1965. then to Fuller in 1965. then to Fuller in 1965. So if we just start in that time period So if we just start in that time period So if we just start in that time period like 1955 to 1965, like 1955 to 1965, like 1955 to 1965, Donald McGovern had spent a good chunk Donald McGovern had spent a good chunk Donald McGovern had spent a good chunk of his life on the mission field in of his life on the mission field in of his life on the mission field in India and and in the 40s into the 50s.

India and and in the 40s into the 50s. India and and in the 40s into the 50s. Um a study had been done by someone else Um a study had been done by someone else Um a study had been done by someone else that looked at all the provinces in that looked at all the provinces in that looked at all the provinces in India and it it looked at why some of India and it it looked at why some of India and it it looked at why some of the churches were growing and some the churches were growing and some the churches were growing and some weren't. In some cases, churches that weren't. In some cases, churches that weren't. In some cases, churches that were just a mile or two apart from one were just a mile or two apart from one were just a mile or two apart from one another, you'd have one that was growing another, you'd have one that was growing another, you'd have one that was growing really fast and one that wasn't. And so, really fast and one that wasn't. And so, really fast and one that wasn't. And so, McGavvern it in and if as a life planner McGavvern it in and if as a life planner McGavvern it in and if as a life planner now, I do a lot of life planning. I'd now, I do a lot of life planning. I'd now, I do a lot of life planning. I'd say his captivating moment say his captivating moment say his captivating moment was on the mission field reading that was on the mission field reading that was on the mission field reading that study and realizing, "Oh my goodness, study and realizing, "Oh my goodness, study and realizing, "Oh my goodness, there's a science to this. There are there's a science to this. There are there's a science to this. There are some things you can pragmatic." He saw some things you can pragmatic." He saw some things you can pragmatic." He saw the patterns. He saw the patterns. the patterns. He saw the patterns. the patterns. He saw the patterns. >> Yeah. and realized why in the world put >> Yeah. and realized why in the world put >> Yeah. and realized why in the world put on the stewardship hat. Why would you on the stewardship hat. Why would you on the stewardship hat. Why would you not want to pragmatically if you can not want to pragmatically if you can not want to pragmatically if you can just tweak a few things, you know, get just tweak a few things, you know, get just tweak a few things, you know, get better results on church growth. Now, better results on church growth. Now, better results on church growth. Now, what what's really important to know in what what's really important to know in what what's really important to know in classic McGavvern is classic McGavvern is classic McGavvern is very evangelistically driven very evangelistically driven very evangelistically driven like he's an evangelist in like he's an evangelist in like he's an evangelist in >> wanted to reach people committed his >> wanted to reach people committed his >> wanted to reach people committed his life to it in India life to it in India life to it in India >> his life to >> his life to >> his life to >> share the gospel. There's a burden for >> share the gospel. There's a burden for >> share the gospel. There's a burden for it and at its core is disciplem. It's it and at its core is disciplem. It's it and at its core is disciplem. It's not a programmatic approach. It's not a not a programmatic approach. It's not a not a programmatic approach. It's not a Sunday center. If if you take just think Sunday center. If if you take just think Sunday center. If if you take just think of the formula of success in the US of the formula of success in the US of the formula of success in the US church right now, that's not the formula church right now, that's not the formula church right now, that's not the formula that he was looking at in 1961 when he's that he was looking at in 1961 when he's that he was looking at in 1961 when he's bringing these principles into the

bringing these principles into the bringing these principles into the founding of the church growth institute. founding of the church growth institute. founding of the church growth institute. Um I'm I'm talking the practices now, Um I'm I'm talking the practices now, Um I'm I'm talking the practices now, not the ideas. not the ideas. not the ideas. >> Well, let's talk about that. What are >> Well, let's talk about that. What are >> Well, let's talk about that. What are some of the differences? What are the some of the differences? What are the some of the differences? What are the assumptions now and his assumptions? assumptions now and his assumptions? assumptions now and his assumptions? Because I think that's going to be Because I think that's going to be Because I think that's going to be really good because it did morph over really good because it did morph over really good because it did morph over the decades. the decades. the decades. >> Yeah. And the morphing, what I'm getting >> Yeah. And the morphing, what I'm getting >> Yeah. And the morphing, what I'm getting ready to bring up, I think is really at ready to bring up, I think is really at ready to bring up, I think is really at the heart of the morphing is it's the heart of the morphing is it's the heart of the morphing is it's important to note that when Donald important to note that when Donald important to note that when Donald McGabn talked church growth, his metric McGabn talked church growth, his metric McGabn talked church growth, his metric of success was not one large church or of success was not one large church or of success was not one large church or what we would call the large church what we would call the large church what we would call the large church phenomena. He was looking at the phenomena. He was looking at the phenomena. He was looking at the collective of converts. across church collective of converts. across church collective of converts. across church plants and church planting. How do we plants and church planting. How do we plants and church planting. How do we how do we reproduce reproduce reproduce? how do we reproduce reproduce reproduce? how do we reproduce reproduce reproduce? And so what's important to know is And so what's important to know is And so what's important to know is Donald McGab himself planted between 10 Donald McGab himself planted between 10 Donald McGab himself planted between 10 and 15 churches, and 15 churches, and 15 churches, none of which were more than 100 people. none of which were more than 100 people. none of which were more than 100 people. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So let it sink in. The father of the >> So let it sink in. The father of the >> So let it sink in. The father of the modern church growth movement planted 10 modern church growth movement planted 10 modern church growth movement planted 10 to 15 churches, none of which were over to 15 churches, none of which were over to 15 churches, none of which were over aundred people.

aundred people. aundred people. And and so your question, what's And and so your question, what's And and so your question, what's different? different? different? >> The measure of success is different. His >> The measure of success is different. His >> The measure of success is different. His success was not how do we grow really success was not how do we grow really success was not how do we grow really big churches. big churches. big churches. It wasn't his metric. It wasn't what he It wasn't his metric. It wasn't what he It wasn't his metric. It wasn't what he was after. His metric was how do we make was after. His metric was how do we make was after. His metric was how do we make conver make disciples who make disciples conver make disciples who make disciples conver make disciples who make disciples that plant churches that plant churches that plant churches that plant churches that plant churches that plant churches and they reproduce like rabbits. And and they reproduce like rabbits. And and they reproduce like rabbits. And it's the church growth means the it's the church growth means the it's the church growth means the collective, if you want to use collective, if you want to use collective, if you want to use attendance, the collective attendance of attendance, the collective attendance of attendance, the collective attendance of the kingdom, not the collective the kingdom, not the collective the kingdom, not the collective attendance of one church. attendance of one church. attendance of one church. >> Right? He's not like building projects, >> Right? He's not like building projects, >> Right? He's not like building projects, multi-sight, all of that. That was all multi-sight, all of that. That was all multi-sight, all of that. That was all decades to come down the road, but it decades to come down the road, but it decades to come down the road, but it wasn't how big can my church get, wasn't how big can my church get, wasn't how big can my church get, >> but how big can the church get through >> but how big can the church get through >> but how big can the church get through the making of disciples, the making of disciples, the making of disciples, >> right? So when he I mean at the heart of >> right? So when he I mean at the heart of >> right? So when he I mean at the heart of that was a disciple generational that was a disciple generational that was a disciple generational disciplem. And when he came back to the disciplem. And when he came back to the disciplem. And when he came back to the US and started the church growth US and started the church growth US and started the church growth institute in 1961, institute in 1961, institute in 1961, he didn't want to train US pastors. In he didn't want to train US pastors. In he didn't want to train US pastors. In fact, he wouldn't. He was only training fact, he wouldn't. He was only training fact, he wouldn't. He was only training international missionaries and not US international missionaries and not US international missionaries and not US pastors.

pastors. pastors. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so he spent four or five years >> And so he spent four or five years >> And so he spent four or five years really looking harder at I'm going to really looking harder at I'm going to really looking harder at I'm going to call it the church growth science. Like call it the church growth science. Like call it the church growth science. Like what's the science of how you do better what's the science of how you do better what's the science of how you do better at growing? Um and and really when I say at growing? Um and and really when I say at growing? Um and and really when I say growing it would almost be better to say growing it would almost be better to say growing it would almost be better to say conversions like and he really was not a conversions like and he really was not a conversions like and he really was not a fan of uh transfer growth and what he fan of uh transfer growth and what he fan of uh transfer growth and what he called organic growth which which is called organic growth which which is called organic growth which which is just you know bearing children into the just you know bearing children into the just you know bearing children into the family. It was family. It was family. It was >> you know he really wanted to make new >> you know he really wanted to make new >> you know he really wanted to make new disciples. Um so from 61 to 65 he disciples. Um so from 61 to 65 he disciples. Um so from 61 to 65 he trained a number of international trained a number of international trained a number of international missionaries then went to the school of missionaries then went to the school of missionaries then went to the school of world missions and where we really see world missions and where we really see world missions and where we really see the starting what I'd call the the starting what I'd call the the starting what I'd call the Americanization of the church growth Americanization of the church growth Americanization of the church growth movement is after he gets to Fuller and movement is after he gets to Fuller and movement is after he gets to Fuller and starts building his team there. Peter starts building his team there. Peter starts building his team there. Peter Wagner is one of his first recruits to Wagner is one of his first recruits to Wagner is one of his first recruits to come off the mission field to be with come off the mission field to be with come off the mission field to be with him at Fuller. him at Fuller. him at Fuller. >> This episode is brought to you by my art >> This episode is brought to you by my art >> This episode is brought to you by my art of leadership academy. If you want a of leadership academy. If you want a of leadership academy. If you want a proven way to grow as a leader in just 5 proven way to grow as a leader in just 5 proven way to grow as a leader in just 5 minutes a day, listen up. Inside the Art minutes a day, listen up. Inside the Art minutes a day, listen up. Inside the Art of Leadership Academy, you'll find of Leadership Academy, you'll find of Leadership Academy, you'll find byite-size tools, weekly conversations, byite-size tools, weekly conversations, byite-size tools, weekly conversations, and leaders who are actually walking the and leaders who are actually walking the and leaders who are actually walking the same walk you're on. And if you're like same walk you're on. And if you're like same walk you're on. And if you're like most leaders these days, here's what you most leaders these days, here's what you most leaders these days, here's what you don't need. You don't need more content.

don't need. You don't need more content. don't need. You don't need more content. You don't even need more ideas for You don't even need more ideas for You don't even need more ideas for faster growth. You need people to help faster growth. You need people to help faster growth. You need people to help you find the right insight at just the you find the right insight at just the you find the right insight at just the right time, the right strategy, the right time, the right strategy, the right time, the right strategy, the right skills, and put it into action. right skills, and put it into action. right skills, and put it into action. When you join the academy, you'll also When you join the academy, you'll also When you join the academy, you'll also get exclusive access to the show notes get exclusive access to the show notes get exclusive access to the show notes for every episode of this podcast and a for every episode of this podcast and a for every episode of this podcast and a very safe, encouraging place to discuss very safe, encouraging place to discuss very safe, encouraging place to discuss it. Actually discuss it, not just drop a it. Actually discuss it, not just drop a it. Actually discuss it, not just drop a comment with other church leaders and comment with other church leaders and comment with other church leaders and also with me. So to get started, create also with me. So to get started, create also with me. So to get started, create a free account. You can get started in a free account. You can get started in a free account. You can get started in minutes and see what a difference it minutes and see what a difference it minutes and see what a difference it makes. All you have to do is click the makes. All you have to do is click the makes. All you have to do is click the link in the description of this episode link in the description of this episode link in the description of this episode or visit the arttoofleershipacademy.com. or visit the arttoofleershipacademy.com. or visit the arttoofleershipacademy.com. I look forward to seeing you inside. I look forward to seeing you inside. I look forward to seeing you inside. This episode is brought to you by Church This episode is brought to you by Church This episode is brought to you by Church Growth Engine. So, if you're like most Growth Engine. So, if you're like most Growth Engine. So, if you're like most pastors listening right now, you want pastors listening right now, you want pastors listening right now, you want your church to thrive, but you're your church to thrive, but you're your church to thrive, but you're drowning in strategies that don't fit drowning in strategies that don't fit drowning in strategies that don't fit your context. Maybe you've tried the your context. Maybe you've tried the your context. Maybe you've tried the latest programs and you've read the latest programs and you've read the latest programs and you've read the books and you've attended the books and you've attended the books and you've attended the conferences. But here's what's missing. conferences. But here's what's missing. conferences. But here's what's missing. A weekly pulse on what's actually A weekly pulse on what's actually A weekly pulse on what's actually working in churches like yours right working in churches like yours right working in churches like yours right now. Church Growth Engine delivers now. Church Growth Engine delivers now. Church Growth Engine delivers researchedback strategies straight into researchedback strategies straight into researchedback strategies straight into your inbox every Tuesday morning. No your inbox every Tuesday morning. No your inbox every Tuesday morning. No fluff, no theory, just practical fluff, no theory, just practical fluff, no theory, just practical insights you can scan in 5 minutes and insights you can scan in 5 minutes and insights you can scan in 5 minutes and implement this week. whether you lead 50 implement this week. whether you lead 50 implement this week. whether you lead 50 people or 500. They cover why churches people or 500. They cover why churches people or 500. They cover why churches growing 5% annually measure engagement growing 5% annually measure engagement growing 5% annually measure engagement over attendance, how one pastor doubled over attendance, how one pastor doubled over attendance, how one pastor doubled visitor retention with immediate visitor retention with immediate visitor retention with immediate texting, and the surprising Jesus

texting, and the surprising Jesus texting, and the surprising Jesus resurgence happening outside of church resurgence happening outside of church resurgence happening outside of church walls. So you can join over a thousand walls. So you can join over a thousand walls. So you can join over a thousand pastors who are building thriving pastors who are building thriving pastors who are building thriving churches without the overwhelm. churches without the overwhelm. churches without the overwhelm. Subscribe for free at Subscribe for free at Subscribe for free at churchgrowthengine.com. churchgrowthengine.com. churchgrowthengine.com. That's churchgrowthengine.com. That's churchgrowthengine.com. That's churchgrowthengine.com. I remember that name. I mean, I started I remember that name. I mean, I started I remember that name. I mean, I started in the 90s in church ministry, church in the 90s in church ministry, church in the 90s in church ministry, church leadership, and I I I didn't know much leadership, and I I I didn't know much leadership, and I I I didn't know much about him, but I remembered that name, about him, but I remembered that name, about him, but I remembered that name, and this is the fun part of it. So, pick and this is the fun part of it. So, pick and this is the fun part of it. So, pick that up. He was a young student. that up. He was a young student. that up. He was a young student. >> Yep. So, uh, >> Yep. So, uh, >> Yep. So, uh, yeah, Wagner comes back and starts yeah, Wagner comes back and starts yeah, Wagner comes back and starts working, you know, in the in the very working, you know, in the in the very working, you know, in the in the very early days now, and we've not yet really early days now, and we've not yet really early days now, and we've not yet really got the American church growth thing got the American church growth thing got the American church growth thing going yet. and a couple of US pastors going yet. and a couple of US pastors going yet. and a couple of US pastors started asking,"Why can't we have a started asking,"Why can't we have a started asking,"Why can't we have a class? Why can't we have a class?" So, class? Why can't we have a class?" So, class? Why can't we have a class?" So, right near Fuller, Wagner convinced right near Fuller, Wagner convinced right near Fuller, Wagner convinced McGavvern that they ought to run a class McGavvern that they ought to run a class McGavvern that they ought to run a class for us pastors on church growth. This is for us pastors on church growth. This is for us pastors on church growth. This is 1971 now. And so, they go to run that 1971 now. And so, they go to run that 1971 now. And so, they go to run that class. And it turns out by God's class. And it turns out by God's class. And it turns out by God's providence in that class is a leader providence in that class is a leader providence in that class is a leader named Win Arm.

named Win Arm. named Win Arm. And Wyn was a marketplace guy who had And Wyn was a marketplace guy who had And Wyn was a marketplace guy who had worked in the denomination was an worked in the denomination was an worked in the denomination was an evangelist and was getting fed up with evangelist and was getting fed up with evangelist and was getting fed up with frustrated by evangelism in the local frustrated by evangelism in the local frustrated by evangelism in the local church and decided to jump into this church and decided to jump into this church and decided to jump into this course. Well, he's a media guy doing course. Well, he's a media guy doing course. Well, he's a media guy doing film making and graphic media. And so film making and graphic media. And so film making and graphic media. And so during the class win starts making during the class win starts making during the class win starts making multimedia props and the rest of the multimedia props and the rest of the multimedia props and the rest of the class loves it. They want to purchase class loves it. They want to purchase class loves it. They want to purchase kits like you should start making kits kits like you should start making kits kits like you should start making kits out of these. out of these. out of these. >> And out of that class in 1971 went ar >> And out of that class in 1971 went ar >> And out of that class in 1971 went ar started a really what I'd say was the started a really what I'd say was the started a really what I'd say was the putting legs to the church growth putting legs to the church growth putting legs to the church growth movement a nonprofit on you know church movement a nonprofit on you know church movement a nonprofit on you know church uh growth ministry and he started uh growth ministry and he started uh growth ministry and he started traveling the country in a crazy way. I traveling the country in a crazy way. I traveling the country in a crazy way. I mean, I'm talking training thousands of mean, I'm talking training thousands of mean, I'm talking training thousands of people and traveling across and that's people and traveling across and that's people and traveling across and that's when you start getting denominational when you start getting denominational when you start getting denominational interest and you start seeing interest and you start seeing interest and you start seeing denominations adding church growth denominations adding church growth denominations adding church growth specialists and it starts right in that specialists and it starts right in that specialists and it starts right in that 71 to 72 window to just quickly get 71 to 72 window to just quickly get 71 to 72 window to just quickly get traction. So much so that McGavvern traction. So much so that McGavvern traction. So much so that McGavvern uh and Wagner thought we need to start a uh and Wagner thought we need to start a uh and Wagner thought we need to start a church growth a department of church church growth a department of church church growth a department of church growth now at at Fuller. So under the growth now at at Fuller. So under the growth now at at Fuller. So under the >> Theological Seminary. Yeah.

>> Theological Seminary. Yeah. >> Theological Seminary. Yeah. >> Right. So at Fuller um the founding dean >> Right. So at Fuller um the founding dean >> Right. So at Fuller um the founding dean will be another name you know of the will be another name you know of the will be another name you know of the church growth department John Wimber. church growth department John Wimber. church growth department John Wimber. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Vineyard like >> Yeah. Vineyard like >> Yeah. Vineyard like >> Vineyard be an anchor church and be part >> Vineyard be an anchor church and be part >> Vineyard be an anchor church and be part of the vineyard movement. And then and of the vineyard movement. And then and of the vineyard movement. And then and then after him was Carl George. So you then after him was Carl George. So you then after him was Carl George. So you get a bunch of these, you know, get a bunch of these, you know, get a bunch of these, you know, legendary legendary legendary >> Carl George has been on this podcast >> Carl George has been on this podcast >> Carl George has been on this podcast hundreds of episodes ago along with hundreds of episodes ago along with hundreds of episodes ago along with Warren Bird. Yeah. Warren Bird. Yeah. Warren Bird. Yeah. >> And he >> And he >> And he >> back when we were audio only. >> back when we were audio only. >> back when we were audio only. >> Yeah. I did about 15 hours of interviews >> Yeah. I did about 15 hours of interviews >> Yeah. I did about 15 hours of interviews with Carl for this book. It I mean just with Carl for this book. It I mean just with Carl for this book. It I mean just that kind of going back to history. But that kind of going back to history. But that kind of going back to history. But notably in that 71 to 75 time period, notably in that 71 to 75 time period, notably in that 71 to 75 time period, Carrie, a young kid named Bill Hibbels Carrie, a young kid named Bill Hibbels Carrie, a young kid named Bill Hibbels pursuing a business career in a business pursuing a business career in a business pursuing a business career in a business family has a youth ministry in the family has a youth ministry in the family has a youth ministry in the suburbs of Chicago and it starts taking suburbs of Chicago and it starts taking suburbs of Chicago and it starts taking off. And so that leads us in I mean off. And so that leads us in I mean off. And so that leads us in I mean there's a whole story then as the the there's a whole story then as the the there's a whole story then as the the right at the timing of the right at the timing of the right at the timing of the Americanization of the church growth Americanization of the church growth Americanization of the church growth movement coming off of the ideals.

movement coming off of the ideals. movement coming off of the ideals. You've got Hibles on the ground having You've got Hibles on the ground having You've got Hibles on the ground having this crazy good youth thing going on. this crazy good youth thing going on. this crazy good youth thing going on. Look what else is happening. Time Look what else is happening. Time Look what else is happening. Time magazine twice in 1970 to72 puts God on magazine twice in 1970 to72 puts God on magazine twice in 1970 to72 puts God on the cover. the cover. the cover. >> The Jesus movement >> The Jesus movement >> The Jesus movement >> and what's happening with evangelism >> and what's happening with evangelism >> and what's happening with evangelism across the country with the you know you across the country with the you know you across the country with the you know you can call it a fresh wind of the spirit can call it a fresh wind of the spirit can call it a fresh wind of the spirit happening. So you've got the combination happening. So you've got the combination happening. So you've got the combination of McGavvern and what he's doing at of McGavvern and what he's doing at of McGavvern and what he's doing at Fuller, the Jesus movement happening. Fuller, the Jesus movement happening. Fuller, the Jesus movement happening. Um, and then you've got Hibel's on the Um, and then you've got Hibel's on the Um, and then you've got Hibel's on the ground as a very clear practitioner. And ground as a very clear practitioner. And ground as a very clear practitioner. And really his mentor is Robert Schuler and really his mentor is Robert Schuler and really his mentor is Robert Schuler and and a lot of people and a lot of people and a lot of people >> Crystal Cathedral guy, >> Crystal Cathedral guy, >> Crystal Cathedral guy, >> Crystal Cathedral. A lot of people don't >> Crystal Cathedral. A lot of people don't >> Crystal Cathedral. A lot of people don't realize the impact that Robert Schuler realize the impact that Robert Schuler realize the impact that Robert Schuler then had on accelerating and impacting then had on accelerating and impacting then had on accelerating and impacting Hybrids. But that enters us into the Hybrids. But that enters us into the Hybrids. But that enters us into the seeker I mean really what we'd call the seeker I mean really what we'd call the seeker I mean really what we'd call the seeker sensitive movement in the 70s. seeker sensitive movement in the 70s. seeker sensitive movement in the 70s. >> Yeah. And I I I want to just put an >> Yeah. And I I I want to just put an >> Yeah. And I I I want to just put an editorial note here. We have talked editorial note here. We have talked editorial note here. We have talked about moral failure dozens if not about moral failure dozens if not about moral failure dozens if not hundreds of times on this podcast. We hundreds of times on this podcast. We hundreds of times on this podcast. We have looked at the Willow Creek have looked at the Willow Creek have looked at the Willow Creek Association or Willow Creek Church moral Association or Willow Creek Church moral Association or Willow Creek Church moral failure. You know Hibel's fall from failure. You know Hibel's fall from failure. You know Hibel's fall from leadership.

leadership. leadership. That is not so if you want that go into That is not so if you want that go into That is not so if you want that go into the archive. There's lots of material the archive. There's lots of material the archive. There's lots of material there talking about it. We're not taking there talking about it. We're not taking there talking about it. We're not taking that angle. This is just this is what that angle. This is just this is what that angle. This is just this is what happened. And younger leaders today, happened. And younger leaders today, happened. And younger leaders today, particularly, you know, Gen Z and particularly, you know, Gen Z and particularly, you know, Gen Z and younger millennial leaders probably younger millennial leaders probably younger millennial leaders probably don't know the way you or I appreciate don't know the way you or I appreciate don't know the way you or I appreciate at our stage how influential Willow was, at our stage how influential Willow was, at our stage how influential Willow was, how influential how influential how influential um, you know, you're going to get to um, you know, you're going to get to um, you know, you're going to get to him, but Saddleback was cuz around that him, but Saddleback was cuz around that him, but Saddleback was cuz around that time Rick was thinking about Rick Warren time Rick was thinking about Rick Warren time Rick was thinking about Rick Warren was thinking about planting a church and was thinking about planting a church and was thinking about planting a church and all this stuff has its genesis in like all this stuff has its genesis in like all this stuff has its genesis in like the 1970s. There was the Jesus the 1970s. There was the Jesus the 1970s. There was the Jesus Revolution film which talked about the Revolution film which talked about the Revolution film which talked about the Jesus movement. All this stuff is in the Jesus movement. All this stuff is in the Jesus movement. All this stuff is in the the the mix, so to speak, within a 5 to the the mix, so to speak, within a 5 to the the mix, so to speak, within a 5 to sevenyear window of it, and it births sevenyear window of it, and it births sevenyear window of it, and it births all the stuff that we are still seeing all the stuff that we are still seeing all the stuff that we are still seeing today and experiencing today, whether today and experiencing today, whether today and experiencing today, whether you realize it or not. you realize it or not. you realize it or not. >> And on the positive side, Carrie, the >> And on the positive side, Carrie, the >> And on the positive side, Carrie, the core common theme of all those things is core common theme of all those things is core common theme of all those things is an evangelistic zeal.

an evangelistic zeal. an evangelistic zeal. >> Yes, people are actually saved, >> Yes, people are actually saved, >> Yes, people are actually saved, >> right? I mean, every interview I did of >> right? I mean, every interview I did of >> right? I mean, every interview I did of anybody back in that time period, it it anybody back in that time period, it it anybody back in that time period, it it was the evangelistic part of it that was was the evangelistic part of it that was was the evangelistic part of it that was drawing them in and engaging them. drawing them in and engaging them. drawing them in and engaging them. >> Okay. So, pick it up. I just wanted to >> Okay. So, pick it up. I just wanted to >> Okay. So, pick it up. I just wanted to put that note in there before people are put that note in there before people are put that note in there before people are like, "Wait a minute." like, "Wait a minute." like, "Wait a minute." >> So, it's a different purpose today. >> So, it's a different purpose today. >> So, it's a different purpose today. >> This is how I would introduce especially >> This is how I would introduce especially >> This is how I would introduce especially for the younger people that they've for the younger people that they've for the younger people that they've heard of the seeker sensitive movement, heard of the seeker sensitive movement, heard of the seeker sensitive movement, maybe have negative impressions of it. I maybe have negative impressions of it. I maybe have negative impressions of it. I >> Exactly. Most of them would. >> Exactly. Most of them would. >> Exactly. Most of them would. >> I I This is where I'll make it personal. >> I I This is where I'll make it personal. >> I I This is where I'll make it personal. Um, I was not a Christian in when Hibel Um, I was not a Christian in when Hibel Um, I was not a Christian in when Hibel started. I was in high school. Uh, I started. I was in high school. Uh, I started. I was in high school. Uh, I actually lived in the community where actually lived in the community where actually lived in the community where Willow Creek movie theater was, Willow Creek movie theater was, Willow Creek movie theater was, uh, so we're in the suburbs. And if if uh, so we're in the suburbs. And if if uh, so we're in the suburbs. And if if you think about the approach that you think about the approach that you think about the approach that Schuler and Hibbels and Warren took, and Schuler and Hibbels and Warren took, and Schuler and Hibbels and Warren took, and they were all related, it was very much they were all related, it was very much they were all related, it was very much I'm going to use the word customer I'm going to use the word customer I'm going to use the word customer consumer oriented, meaning in a good consumer oriented, meaning in a good consumer oriented, meaning in a good way. They went and did surveys in way. They went and did surveys in way. They went and did surveys in neighborhoods. They'd go what Warren neighborhoods. They'd go what Warren neighborhoods. They'd go what Warren talk Rick talks about all, you know, his talk Rick talks about all, you know, his talk Rick talks about all, you know, his story of going doortodoor to every story of going doortodoor to every story of going doortodoor to every household in Saddleback Valley to household in Saddleback Valley to household in Saddleback Valley to interview them about what they needed in interview them about what they needed in interview them about what they needed in church and what their needs were. And church and what their needs were. And church and what their needs were. And that was a common denominator between that was a common denominator between that was a common denominator between Scheler, Hygibles, and Warren in the 70s Scheler, Hygibles, and Warren in the 70s Scheler, Hygibles, and Warren in the 70s is they are really trying to understand is they are really trying to understand is they are really trying to understand the felt needs of who they're going to the felt needs of who they're going to the felt needs of who they're going to be reaching. And therefore, how do we do be reaching. And therefore, how do we do be reaching. And therefore, how do we do church in a way to to draw them in on

church in a way to to draw them in on church in a way to to draw them in on those felt needs? That's where you get those felt needs? That's where you get those felt needs? That's where you get the seeker name even is we're going to the seeker name even is we're going to the seeker name even is we're going to find the seekers, people who are open to find the seekers, people who are open to find the seekers, people who are open to spirituality. Now, let's make sure we spirituality. Now, let's make sure we spirituality. Now, let's make sure we understand them in a way that we can understand them in a way that we can understand them in a way that we can draw them in. draw them in. draw them in. >> I mean, we're still talking about the >> I mean, we're still talking about the >> I mean, we're still talking about the same thing. We just don't use the same thing. We just don't use the same thing. We just don't use the language. We talk about people who are language. We talk about people who are language. We talk about people who are spiritually open, people who are spiritually open, people who are spiritually open, people who are spiritually curious, people who are spiritually curious, people who are spiritually curious, people who are spiritual but not religious or spiritual but not religious or spiritual but not religious or Christian. And we just change the Christian. And we just change the Christian. And we just change the nomature. And you know to that end it nomature. And you know to that end it nomature. And you know to that end it was funny when you were talking about was funny when you were talking about was funny when you were talking about the the fruit of that ministry there is the the fruit of that ministry there is the the fruit of that ministry there is a temptation to look back from what we a temptation to look back from what we a temptation to look back from what we know now so to speak in air quotes and know now so to speak in air quotes and know now so to speak in air quotes and look back on everything in the past as look back on everything in the past as look back on everything in the past as having been dumb and those people didn't having been dumb and those people didn't having been dumb and those people didn't know what they were doing but guess what know what they were doing but guess what know what they were doing but guess what we have it all figured out and our kids we have it all figured out and our kids we have it all figured out and our kids will look back on us and go well um will look back on us and go well um will look back on us and go well um actually but I Lee Strobel's been on the actually but I Lee Strobel's been on the actually but I Lee Strobel's been on the podcast at least once maybe twice and I podcast at least once maybe twice and I podcast at least once maybe twice and I had breakfast with him and Mark Middberg had breakfast with him and Mark Middberg had breakfast with him and Mark Middberg a couple months ago a couple months ago a couple months ago when I think I was in Denver and you when I think I was in Denver and you when I think I was in Denver and you know this is a guy who literally got know this is a guy who literally got know this is a guy who literally got saved in the early days of Willow Creek.

saved in the early days of Willow Creek. saved in the early days of Willow Creek. We were chatting at breakfast about his We were chatting at breakfast about his We were chatting at breakfast about his conversion. He was working as a legal conversion. He was working as a legal conversion. He was working as a legal editor for the Chicago Tribune. Total editor for the Chicago Tribune. Total editor for the Chicago Tribune. Total atheist. His wife started going. He was atheist. His wife started going. He was atheist. His wife started going. He was opposed to it. He was drinking too much. opposed to it. He was drinking too much. opposed to it. He was drinking too much. He was all those things. And his life He was all those things. And his life He was all those things. And his life got turned around and he's now I think got turned around and he's now I think got turned around and he's now I think in his 70s and loves Jesus, is sharing in his 70s and loves Jesus, is sharing in his 70s and loves Jesus, is sharing the gospel, is making an impact. So the gospel, is making an impact. So the gospel, is making an impact. So yeah, there were some some mistakes of yeah, there were some some mistakes of yeah, there were some some mistakes of that movement and some dark sides of that movement and some dark sides of that movement and some dark sides of that, but there's also fruit that that, but there's also fruit that that, but there's also fruit that endures to this day. endures to this day. endures to this day. >> And personally, Carrie, I living there >> And personally, Carrie, I living there >> And personally, Carrie, I living there in the community where Willow Creek was. in the community where Willow Creek was. in the community where Willow Creek was. I was in high school. We're not a I was in high school. We're not a I was in high school. We're not a Christian family. Christian family. Christian family. >> And and this is the heart of the seeker >> And and this is the heart of the seeker >> And and this is the heart of the seeker approach. approach. approach. >> My mom's best friend says to my mom, >> My mom's best friend says to my mom, >> My mom's best friend says to my mom, "There's this new church at the movie "There's this new church at the movie "There's this new church at the movie theater. It's different than normal theater. It's different than normal theater. It's different than normal church. you've got to bring your kids church. you've got to bring your kids church. you've got to bring your kids and come see this church. and come see this church. and come see this church. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And here's what I remember, Carrie. I >> And here's what I remember, Carrie. I >> And here's what I remember, Carrie. I having not been in church much at that having not been in church much at that having not been in church much at that point, we got back in the car in the point, we got back in the car in the point, we got back in the car in the parking lot after church and and and parking lot after church and and and parking lot after church and and and before I tell you what I said, it Yeah.

before I tell you what I said, it Yeah. before I tell you what I said, it Yeah. It it was drums and drama and it was an It it was drums and drama and it was an It it was drums and drama and it was an experience. experience. experience. >> It was an experience. And we got in the >> It was an experience. And we got in the >> It was an experience. And we got in the car and and my mom said to us kids, car and and my mom said to us kids, car and and my mom said to us kids, "Well, what'd you all think of church?" "Well, what'd you all think of church?" "Well, what'd you all think of church?" And my answer was, And my answer was, And my answer was, I'm not sure exactly what that was, but I'm not sure exactly what that was, but I'm not sure exactly what that was, but that wasn't church. that wasn't church. that wasn't church. Now, this is coming from a non-Christian Now, this is coming from a non-Christian Now, this is coming from a non-Christian telling somebody, "I'm not sure what telling somebody, "I'm not sure what telling somebody, "I'm not sure what church is, but that's not church." And church is, but that's not church." And church is, but that's not church." And and you know what it the door opening and you know what it the door opening and you know what it the door opening that that safety of drawing people in is that that safety of drawing people in is that that safety of drawing people in is a strength of what was going on. And we a strength of what was going on. And we a strength of what was going on. And we need to celebrate that strength. There's need to celebrate that strength. There's need to celebrate that strength. There's a lot of people in eternity because of a lot of people in eternity because of a lot of people in eternity because of that approach. Well, and we were also that approach. Well, and we were also that approach. Well, and we were also seeing I mean in North America at that seeing I mean in North America at that seeing I mean in North America at that time, Christianity had sort of peaked time, Christianity had sort of peaked time, Christianity had sort of peaked out in the 50s with attendance and a lot out in the 50s with attendance and a lot out in the 50s with attendance and a lot of that was nominal and I get it. And of that was nominal and I get it. And of that was nominal and I get it. And then the 60s were a very huge change then the 60s were a very huge change then the 60s were a very huge change decade. Church attendance was already decade. Church attendance was already decade. Church attendance was already starting to decline. And this new starting to decline. And this new starting to decline. And this new generation came up in the 70s and kind generation came up in the 70s and kind generation came up in the 70s and kind of looked at the model of church and of looked at the model of church and of looked at the model of church and looked at their quote parents who were looked at their quote parents who were looked at their quote parents who were running it and said, "We we can take the running it and said, "We we can take the running it and said, "We we can take the gospel and do this differently.

gospel and do this differently. gospel and do this differently. Okay, pick up the narrative from there. Okay, pick up the narrative from there. Okay, pick up the narrative from there. This is a fun fun com. I love this This is a fun fun com. I love this This is a fun fun com. I love this stuff. I guess I studied history too stuff. I guess I studied history too stuff. I guess I studied history too long in school. Well, long in school. Well, long in school. Well, >> you said you historian, so there you go. >> you said you historian, so there you go. >> you said you historian, so there you go. >> Well, I'm not a historian. I I have a a >> Well, I'm not a historian. I I have a a >> Well, I'm not a historian. I I have a a degree in history and political science. degree in history and political science. degree in history and political science. So, I love this stuff. I'm a nerd. So, I love this stuff. I'm a nerd. So, I love this stuff. I'm a nerd. >> So, middle 70s, um, if we really look >> So, middle 70s, um, if we really look >> So, middle 70s, um, if we really look what's happening now as the seeker what's happening now as the seeker what's happening now as the seeker movement is getting going, I I didn't movement is getting going, I I didn't movement is getting going, I I didn't give enough credit. didn't even give enough credit. didn't even give enough credit. didn't even understand the role Robert Schuler was understand the role Robert Schuler was understand the role Robert Schuler was playing in this until doing this book. playing in this until doing this book. playing in this until doing this book. Um Robert Schuler, you know, from the Um Robert Schuler, you know, from the Um Robert Schuler, you know, from the Crystal Cathedral, he um had written a Crystal Cathedral, he um had written a Crystal Cathedral, he um had written a book called Possibility Thinking. book called Possibility Thinking. book called Possibility Thinking. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And let me do the generational thing for >> And let me do the generational thing for >> And let me do the generational thing for you. Um we've got McGavvern as the Lost you. Um we've got McGavvern as the Lost you. Um we've got McGavvern as the Lost Generation born in 1897. Generation born in 1897. Generation born in 1897. Now we run into our and and now we're Now we run into our and and now we're Now we run into our and and now we're into our next influential person in what into our next influential person in what into our next influential person in what we're calling this era of church growth we're calling this era of church growth we're calling this era of church growth thing which is Scheler. And Scheler's thing which is Scheler. And Scheler's thing which is Scheler. And Scheler's part of the greatest generation. So he's part of the greatest generation. So he's part of the greatest generation. So he's >> the next generation. And to encourage >> the next generation. And to encourage >> the next generation. And to encourage folks, folks, folks, it's boomers who actually built the it's boomers who actually built the it's boomers who actually built the movement, but we actually have three movement, but we actually have three movement, but we actually have three generations earlier than the boomers generations earlier than the boomers generations earlier than the boomers that poured the gas on what was going to that poured the gas on what was going to that poured the gas on what was going to happen in the building.

happen in the building. happen in the building. >> Yeah. They were making the way for the >> Yeah. They were making the way for the >> Yeah. They were making the way for the next generation. next generation. next generation. >> Making the way for the next generation. >> Making the way for the next generation. >> Making the way for the next generation. And it's so it's so funny, you know, And it's so it's so funny, you know, And it's so it's so funny, you know, this just a little footnote since the this just a little footnote since the this just a little footnote since the time I I finished reading your book. Uh time I I finished reading your book. Uh time I I finished reading your book. Uh Bill Gurley, the legendary Silicon Bill Gurley, the legendary Silicon Bill Gurley, the legendary Silicon investor, Silicon Valley investor is investor, Silicon Valley investor is investor, Silicon Valley investor is coming on the show as a podcast might be coming on the show as a podcast might be coming on the show as a podcast might be or as a guest might be aired by the time or as a guest might be aired by the time or as a guest might be aired by the time we air this. I never know how it all we air this. I never know how it all we air this. I never know how it all works. But um I'm reading his book and works. But um I'm reading his book and works. But um I'm reading his book and I'm looking through his bibliography and I'm looking through his bibliography and I'm looking through his bibliography and you know who he refer this is, as far as you know who he refer this is, as far as you know who he refer this is, as far as I know, a secular guy. I'm not sure that I know, a secular guy. I'm not sure that I know, a secular guy. I'm not sure that he's a Christian. I'll find out when I he's a Christian. I'll find out when I he's a Christian. I'll find out when I interview him, but I mean had a interview him, but I mean had a interview him, but I mean had a fascinating career. Among all the books fascinating career. Among all the books fascinating career. Among all the books he lists, one of Robert Scheler's books. he lists, one of Robert Scheler's books. he lists, one of Robert Scheler's books. >> Interesting. Along with Dale Carnegie >> Interesting. Along with Dale Carnegie >> Interesting. Along with Dale Carnegie and so on. I'm like, okay, that's and so on. I'm like, okay, that's and so on. I'm like, okay, that's interesting because I mean the Crystal interesting because I mean the Crystal interesting because I mean the Crystal Cathedral's been closed for years, Cathedral's been closed for years, Cathedral's been closed for years, decades. But decades. But decades. But >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Well, that chain is interesting because >> Well, that chain is interesting because >> Well, that chain is interesting because Scheler was impacted by Carnegie and Scheler was impacted by Carnegie and Scheler was impacted by Carnegie and then Scheler is the one with his then Scheler is the one with his then Scheler is the one with his possibility thinking. Here's the way to possibility thinking. Here's the way to possibility thinking. Here's the way to put his possibility thinking, thinking put his possibility thinking, thinking put his possibility thinking, thinking outside the box. How do we think more outside the box. How do we think more outside the box. How do we think more outside the box about things? And we outside the box about things? And we outside the box about things? And we have to look what's going on in the 70s.

have to look what's going on in the 70s. have to look what's going on in the 70s. We call this the church growth movement, We call this the church growth movement, We call this the church growth movement, but 60s and 70s, the really big thing but 60s and 70s, the really big thing but 60s and 70s, the really big thing going on in the country is the consumer going on in the country is the consumer going on in the country is the consumer movement. movement. movement. >> You have after the war, the move to >> You have after the war, the move to >> You have after the war, the move to suburbia. I mean, really, you could say suburbia. I mean, really, you could say suburbia. I mean, really, you could say suburbia was invented in the 60s and suburbia was invented in the 60s and suburbia was invented in the 60s and 70s. 70s. 70s. >> Yeah, malls were pretty new by in the >> Yeah, malls were pretty new by in the >> Yeah, malls were pretty new by in the 60s and 70s. that was new. 60s and 70s. that was new. 60s and 70s. that was new. >> So you have this mass movement to the >> So you have this mass movement to the >> So you have this mass movement to the suburbs television. If you look in 1950 suburbs television. If you look in 1950 suburbs television. If you look in 1950 compared to 1960, that's a movement by compared to 1960, that's a movement by compared to 1960, that's a movement by itself. Virtually nobody has a TV. And itself. Virtually nobody has a TV. And itself. Virtually nobody has a TV. And by by the time a man's walking on the by by the time a man's walking on the by by the time a man's walking on the moon, just about everybody has a TV. In moon, just about everybody has a TV. In moon, just about everybody has a TV. In 1955, there's no credit cards. And 20 1955, there's no credit cards. And 20 1955, there's no credit cards. And 20 years later, you got credit card debt years later, you got credit card debt years later, you got credit card debt and stuff going on. When you look at the and stuff going on. When you look at the and stuff going on. When you look at the things that impact consumers, things that impact consumers, things that impact consumers, >> it's it's really what's going on in the >> it's it's really what's going on in the >> it's it's really what's going on in the time period that time period that time period that >> that we're talking about is is how >> that we're talking about is is how >> that we're talking about is is how consumer things are are impacting consumer things are are impacting consumer things are are impacting things. So now along comes Schuler and things. So now along comes Schuler and things. So now along comes Schuler and look what his messaging is. We got to look what his messaging is. We got to look what his messaging is. We got to think outside the box. Crystal think outside the box. Crystal think outside the box. Crystal Cathedral. What is that? His first thing Cathedral. What is that? His first thing Cathedral. What is that? His first thing was a drive-in movie theater. They were was a drive-in movie theater. They were was a drive-in movie theater. They were doing church in a drive-in movie doing church in a drive-in movie doing church in a drive-in movie theater.

theater. theater. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. and and then out of that comes the and and then out of that comes the and and then out of that comes the crystal cathedral. But really the modern crystal cathedral. But really the modern crystal cathedral. But really the modern area of marketing much of it came to be area of marketing much of it came to be area of marketing much of it came to be both with the consumer movement and all both with the consumer movement and all both with the consumer movement and all the marketing techniques. But now we can the marketing techniques. But now we can the marketing techniques. But now we can leverage those things into the church. leverage those things into the church. leverage those things into the church. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Starting to get this combination of >> Starting to get this combination of >> Starting to get this combination of secular things that we haven't secular things that we haven't secular things that we haven't necessarily had in the church much and necessarily had in the church much and necessarily had in the church much and now they're starting to come to bear now they're starting to come to bear now they're starting to come to bear through the consumer part of what's through the consumer part of what's through the consumer part of what's going on. Whether it's marketing, going on. Whether it's marketing, going on. Whether it's marketing, whether it's the modern leadership whether it's the modern leadership whether it's the modern leadership things, uh, big buildings like what things, uh, big buildings like what things, uh, big buildings like what we're talking about, you know, a whole we're talking about, you know, a whole we're talking about, you know, a whole range of things are emerging. But range of things are emerging. But range of things are emerging. But Schuler is the one, according to Hibles Schuler is the one, according to Hibles Schuler is the one, according to Hibles himself, that when Hibles was young himself, that when Hibles was young himself, that when Hibles was young here, we're coming up on 1980 now when here, we're coming up on 1980 now when here, we're coming up on 1980 now when things have taken off for Willow and things have taken off for Willow and things have taken off for Willow and they need to do their first building to they need to do their first building to they need to do their first building to get out of the movie theater and they're get out of the movie theater and they're get out of the movie theater and they're trying to figure out what they're going trying to figure out what they're going trying to figure out what they're going to do. And in Hibel's words, I mean, to do. And in Hibel's words, I mean, to do. And in Hibel's words, I mean, he's just a young kid. We don't have any he's just a young kid. We don't have any he's just a young kid. We don't have any money. And he went out and they visited money. And he went out and they visited money. And he went out and they visited Schuler. And Scheler let him come up to Schuler. And Scheler let him come up to Schuler. And Scheler let him come up to the office and they had a conversation the office and they had a conversation the office and they had a conversation where I'm going to paraphrase here, but where I'm going to paraphrase here, but where I'm going to paraphrase here, but Schuler basically said to him, "Give God Schuler basically said to him, "Give God Schuler basically said to him, "Give God a thimble and he might fill it. Give God a thimble and he might fill it. Give God a thimble and he might fill it. Give God a five gallallon bucket and he might a five gallallon bucket and he might a five gallallon bucket and he might fill that. Give God a 55gallon drum and fill that. Give God a 55gallon drum and fill that. Give God a 55gallon drum and you might see some really cool things you might see some really cool things you might see some really cool things happen." And it was Schuler who happen." And it was Schuler who happen." And it was Schuler who challenged Hibil's think big. You got to

challenged Hibil's think big. You got to challenged Hibil's think big. You got to think really big and in a both a good think really big and in a both a good think really big and in a both a good way and a bad way now Carrie this think way and a bad way now Carrie this think way and a bad way now Carrie this think big. big. big. >> This is where we start to move now early >> This is where we start to move now early >> This is where we start to move now early in the Americanization from what I would in the Americanization from what I would in the Americanization from what I would call gospel saturation as an end scope call gospel saturation as an end scope call gospel saturation as an end scope for McGavvern. He's wanting to see for McGavvern. He's wanting to see for McGavvern. He's wanting to see geography saturated by disciplem and geography saturated by disciplem and geography saturated by disciplem and planting. And now we've got this very planting. And now we've got this very planting. And now we've got this very clear iconic, you know, five a thimble clear iconic, you know, five a thimble clear iconic, you know, five a thimble to a five gallon drum to a 55gallon to a five gallon drum to a 55gallon to a five gallon drum to a 55gallon drum, which is go buy that 90 acres and drum, which is go buy that 90 acres and drum, which is go buy that 90 acres and build your building, you know, if you build your building, you know, if you build your building, you know, if you give God hold it out. And this is where give God hold it out. And this is where give God hold it out. And this is where that was a hard one for me, Carrie. It's that was a hard one for me, Carrie. It's that was a hard one for me, Carrie. It's like what would I do if I was in Hibel's like what would I do if I was in Hibel's like what would I do if I was in Hibel's shoes? I mean, that's like a faith that shoes? I mean, that's like a faith that shoes? I mean, that's like a faith that like what you gonna put in front of God. like what you gonna put in front of God. like what you gonna put in front of God. Are you gonna put a small vision or a Are you gonna put a small vision or a Are you gonna put a small vision or a big vision in front of God? Mhm. big vision in front of God? Mhm. big vision in front of God? Mhm. >> And really, if you think about what's >> And really, if you think about what's >> And really, if you think about what's starting to emerge right now in the late starting to emerge right now in the late starting to emerge right now in the late 70s into the 80s, I'm going to call it 70s into the 80s, I'm going to call it 70s into the 80s, I'm going to call it an apostolic pioneering, call it the an apostolic pioneering, call it the an apostolic pioneering, call it the church entrepreneur. Like it's you're church entrepreneur. Like it's you're church entrepreneur. Like it's you're and that's who Schuler is really. If if and that's who Schuler is really. If if and that's who Schuler is really. If if if if you're a churchminded if if you're a churchminded if if you're a churchminded entrepreneur, when Schuler is doing what entrepreneur, when Schuler is doing what entrepreneur, when Schuler is doing what he's doing, you're going to be attracted he's doing, you're going to be attracted he's doing, you're going to be attracted to it. And and we're starting now in the to it. And and we're starting now in the to it. And and we're starting now in the late 70s and early 80s to see late 70s and early 80s to see late 70s and early 80s to see entrepreneurial church leaders being entrepreneurial church leaders being entrepreneurial church leaders being mobilized in a new way.

mobilized in a new way. mobilized in a new way. >> Yeah. And that was kind of new, wasn't >> Yeah. And that was kind of new, wasn't >> Yeah. And that was kind of new, wasn't it? it? it? >> That Well, in fact, you know, if you >> That Well, in fact, you know, if you >> That Well, in fact, you know, if you look at that point, what we would call a look at that point, what we would call a look at that point, what we would call a megaurch by most of the data that's done megaurch by most of the data that's done megaurch by most of the data that's done by 1980, there's less than 50 megaurches by 1980, there's less than 50 megaurches by 1980, there's less than 50 megaurches in America. I remember talking to Gordon in America. I remember talking to Gordon in America. I remember talking to Gordon McDonald about leading I think it was McDonald about leading I think it was McDonald about leading I think it was Grace Chapel in uh in New England in the Grace Chapel in uh in New England in the Grace Chapel in uh in New England in the 70s and they had gone past a thousand 70s and they had gone past a thousand 70s and they had gone past a thousand people and I remember him telling me we people and I remember him telling me we people and I remember him telling me we didn't have a category for that. Like didn't have a category for that. Like didn't have a category for that. Like very few churches in the history of very few churches in the history of very few churches in the history of America had gotten that large and there America had gotten that large and there America had gotten that large and there were not many in the 70s and then of were not many in the 70s and then of were not many in the 70s and then of course the 80s the 90s and you know course the 80s the 90s and you know course the 80s the 90s and you know where we are today. And uh this is where we are today. And uh this is where we are today. And uh this is groundbreaking and before people kind of groundbreaking and before people kind of groundbreaking and before people kind of I'll insert occasional editorial I'll insert occasional editorial I'll insert occasional editorial comments here, Todd, before people jump comments here, Todd, before people jump comments here, Todd, before people jump all over. Well, consumer Christianity is all over. Well, consumer Christianity is all over. Well, consumer Christianity is a problem, etc. Well, have you deleted a problem, etc. Well, have you deleted a problem, etc. Well, have you deleted your Amazon account? Like, how often are your Amazon account? Like, how often are your Amazon account? Like, how often are you on that? And then you're really you on that? And then you're really you on that? And then you're really trying to grow your followers on trying to grow your followers on trying to grow your followers on Instagram and Tik Tok and YouTube and Instagram and Tik Tok and YouTube and Instagram and Tik Tok and YouTube and all of that. Guess what that is? It's all of that. Guess what that is? It's all of that. Guess what that is? It's the same thing. It's just got a new the same thing. It's just got a new the same thing. It's just got a new form. So, anyway, let's pick up the form. So, anyway, let's pick up the form. So, anyway, let's pick up the story. So this is all we had spiritual story. So this is all we had spiritual story. So this is all we had spiritual entrepreneurs entrepreneurs entrepreneurs >> where the time this is where the >> where the time this is where the >> where the time this is where the timeline really started getting timeline really started getting timeline really started getting intriguing and exciting for me like intriguing and exciting for me like intriguing and exciting for me like going into that 1980 to 85 window.

going into that 1980 to 85 window. going into that 1980 to 85 window. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because if we if we just take a pause >> Because if we if we just take a pause >> Because if we if we just take a pause for a second you've got we're 25 years for a second you've got we're 25 years for a second you've got we're 25 years into McGavvern from 55 to 1980. into McGavvern from 55 to 1980. into McGavvern from 55 to 1980. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you've had him only wanting >> And you've had him only wanting >> And you've had him only wanting international. It moves to US. It's international. It moves to US. It's international. It moves to US. It's starting to the ideals are spreading starting to the ideals are spreading starting to the ideals are spreading now. You're getting practitioners on the now. You're getting practitioners on the now. You're getting practitioners on the ground with people like Hibbels and then ground with people like Hibbels and then ground with people like Hibbels and then Warren and and you're starting to see Warren and and you're starting to see Warren and and you're starting to see this intrigue. I'm going to call it this intrigue. I'm going to call it this intrigue. I'm going to call it apostolically or entrepreneurally. apostolically or entrepreneurally. apostolically or entrepreneurally. Wow. This big thing something we could Wow. This big thing something we could Wow. This big thing something we could go after. I mean it's if you want to go after. I mean it's if you want to go after. I mean it's if you want to call it the scorecard, there's a call it the scorecard, there's a call it the scorecard, there's a shifting of scorecard that we don't have shifting of scorecard that we don't have shifting of scorecard that we don't have to think small. If you go back to to think small. If you go back to to think small. If you go back to Scheler's words, think outside the box, Scheler's words, think outside the box, Scheler's words, think outside the box, possibility thinking, think big. And and possibility thinking, think big. And and possibility thinking, think big. And and if there is a co-opting that's going on if there is a co-opting that's going on if there is a co-opting that's going on in a positive way, the scorecard is in a positive way, the scorecard is in a positive way, the scorecard is changing from thinking small to thinking changing from thinking small to thinking changing from thinking small to thinking big. big. big. >> The challenge is McGavvern's original >> The challenge is McGavvern's original >> The challenge is McGavvern's original ideals were thinking big, but through ideals were thinking big, but through ideals were thinking big, but through saturation, saturation, saturation, just not through one, just not through one, just not through one, >> right? Not a big 90 acre campus. It's >> right? Not a big 90 acre campus. It's >> right? Not a big 90 acre campus. It's like your church of a hundred will go like your church of a hundred will go like your church of a hundred will go out and you'll make disciples and you'll out and you'll make disciples and you'll out and you'll make disciples and you'll plant more churches and they'll plant plant more churches and they'll plant plant more churches and they'll plant churches. Sort of back to your churches. Sort of back to your churches. Sort of back to your exponentials like multiplying movement, exponentials like multiplying movement, exponentials like multiplying movement, but it became but it became but it became >> well supermarkets were getting bigger.

>> well supermarkets were getting bigger. >> well supermarkets were getting bigger. There was a concentration of the market. There was a concentration of the market. There was a concentration of the market. All of those things were happening at All of those things were happening at All of those things were happening at the same time and it impacted the the same time and it impacted the the same time and it impacted the church. church. church. >> Yeah. Well, here's what's fun in the >> Yeah. Well, here's what's fun in the >> Yeah. Well, here's what's fun in the story. So, we're we're coming into the story. So, we're we're coming into the story. So, we're we're coming into the 80s now. Warren has started Saddleback. 80s now. Warren has started Saddleback. 80s now. Warren has started Saddleback. um Fuller Fuller Evangelistic um Fuller Fuller Evangelistic um Fuller Fuller Evangelistic Association starts doing church planting Association starts doing church planting Association starts doing church planting and other church growth conferences that and other church growth conferences that and other church growth conferences that in my interviews it's amazing how many in my interviews it's amazing how many in my interviews it's amazing how many you know founding pastors of a bunch of you know founding pastors of a bunch of you know founding pastors of a bunch of our mega churches right now that's how our mega churches right now that's how our mega churches right now that's how they were equipped in the 80s if you they were equipped in the 80s if you they were equipped in the 80s if you >> oh they went to like before my time they >> oh they went to like before my time they >> oh they went to like before my time they were at some of those Fuller seminars were at some of those Fuller seminars were at some of those Fuller seminars and conferences and conferences and conferences >> that's exactly right >> that's exactly right >> that's exactly right >> uh Doug Doug Slaybaw who helped start >> uh Doug Doug Slaybaw who helped start >> uh Doug Doug Slaybaw who helped start Purpose Driven for Rick and yeah Purpose Driven for Rick and yeah Purpose Driven for Rick and yeah >> worked with me with Bob Buford. >> worked with me with Bob Buford. >> worked with me with Bob Buford. >> Doug was the director of those Fuller >> Doug was the director of those Fuller >> Doug was the director of those Fuller conferences in the 80s. conferences in the 80s. conferences in the 80s. >> So I interviewed him. >> So I interviewed him. >> So I interviewed him. >> He told me it was amazing in the early >> He told me it was amazing in the early >> He told me it was amazing in the early 80s in that mid 80 time period 80s in that mid 80 time period 80s in that mid 80 time period >> they would hold these classes and he >> they would hold these classes and he >> they would hold these classes and he said I remember the first time we had said I remember the first time we had said I remember the first time we had Rick Warren speak at one. He said I Rick Warren speak at one. He said I Rick Warren speak at one. He said I didn't know him until then. He was just didn't know him until then. He was just didn't know him until then. He was just a young kid. He had just started a young kid. He had just started a young kid. He had just started Saddleback and people were outside. I Saddleback and people were outside. I Saddleback and people were outside. I mean, they were overflowing outside his mean, they were overflowing outside his mean, they were overflowing outside his classroom as he's teaching the classroom as he's teaching the classroom as he's teaching the principles of, you know, here's this principles of, you know, here's this principles of, you know, here's this young 20some kid that's teaching the young 20some kid that's teaching the young 20some kid that's teaching the principles of how he's grown how he's principles of how he's grown how he's principles of how he's grown how he's grown a church to three or 400 people.

grown a church to three or 400 people. grown a church to three or 400 people. >> Yeah, that was a thing, man. I mean, >> Yeah, that was a thing, man. I mean, >> Yeah, that was a thing, man. I mean, when I started in ministry, if you had a when I started in ministry, if you had a when I started in ministry, if you had a church of 400, that was like, wow, I got church of 400, that was like, wow, I got church of 400, that was like, wow, I got to get coffee with you. And that's what to get coffee with you. And that's what to get coffee with you. And that's what that they what they would do is bring that they what they would do is bring that they what they would do is bring people in who had grown churches to people in who had grown churches to people in who had grown churches to three or four or 500. We're not even yet three or four or 500. We're not even yet three or four or 500. We're not even yet in the very early 80s necessarily in the very early 80s necessarily in the very early 80s necessarily thinking how do we platform churches of thinking how do we platform churches of thinking how do we platform churches of thousands because there aren't any to thousands because there aren't any to thousands because there aren't any to hardly any to platform. We're we're hardly any to platform. We're we're hardly any to platform. We're we're still down in the units of hundreds. In still down in the units of hundreds. In still down in the units of hundreds. In fact, the original definition of a mega fact, the original definition of a mega fact, the original definition of a mega church was a thousand. church was a thousand. church was a thousand. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And >> because it was so rare. >> because it was so rare. >> because it was so rare. >> It was so rare. We're still down on the >> It was so rare. We're still down on the >> It was so rare. We're still down on the small end. So here's where it starts to small end. So here's where it starts to small end. So here's where it starts to get a little more personal for me is is get a little more personal for me is is get a little more personal for me is is where Bob Buford enters the story. So where Bob Buford enters the story. So where Bob Buford enters the story. So Bob was a business owned a private cable Bob was a business owned a private cable Bob was a business owned a private cable company. Um Bob w was personally company. Um Bob w was personally company. Um Bob w was personally mentored by Peter Ducker the father of mentored by Peter Ducker the father of mentored by Peter Ducker the father of modern management modern management modern management >> who a lot of people might not know I >> who a lot of people might not know I >> who a lot of people might not know I know of. We've had Jim Collins on. He know of. We've had Jim Collins on. He know of. We've had Jim Collins on. He was heavily influenced by Peter Ducker.

was heavily influenced by Peter Ducker. was heavily influenced by Peter Ducker. Uh, and again before my time, but like a Uh, and again before my time, but like a Uh, and again before my time, but like a legendary business leader for my legendary business leader for my legendary business leader for my parents' generation and a little bit parents' generation and a little bit parents' generation and a little bit younger. younger. younger. >> And the average person in church right >> And the average person in church right >> And the average person in church right now does not understand the significance now does not understand the significance now does not understand the significance of how Peter Ducker has impacted their of how Peter Ducker has impacted their of how Peter Ducker has impacted their church today. church today. church today. >> So, let's do a quick wiki on Peter >> So, let's do a quick wiki on Peter >> So, let's do a quick wiki on Peter Ducker. Who was he? Why was he Ducker. Who was he? Why was he Ducker. Who was he? Why was he significant? And we'll get to Bob. significant? And we'll get to Bob. significant? And we'll get to Bob. >> It's a fascinating story. So Peter is >> It's a fascinating story. So Peter is >> It's a fascinating story. So Peter is also in that uh greatest generation born also in that uh greatest generation born also in that uh greatest generation born in the in 19 I think 1900 plus or minus in the in 19 I think 1900 plus or minus in the in 19 I think 1900 plus or minus a year or two. He's right there at the a year or two. He's right there at the a year or two. He's right there at the beginning of the greatest generation. beginning of the greatest generation. beginning of the greatest generation. Born in Austria Born in Austria Born in Austria >> he's I like to say there were four >> he's I like to say there were four >> he's I like to say there were four seasons to his life. Um he initially was seasons to his life. Um he initially was seasons to his life. Um he initially was in uh a political journalist writer and in uh a political journalist writer and in uh a political journalist writer and politics wanting to cover things. He politics wanting to cover things. He politics wanting to cover things. He wrote some very confront controversial wrote some very confront controversial wrote some very confront controversial things about Hitler because he was things about Hitler because he was things about Hitler because he was really against what was happening to the really against what was happening to the really against what was happening to the point that his papers got burned some of point that his papers got burned some of point that his papers got burned some of the stuff he did and he had to flee. He the stuff he did and he had to flee. He the stuff he did and he had to flee. He left what he was doing there, came to left what he was doing there, came to left what he was doing there, came to America and he his whole thing at that America and he his whole thing at that America and he his whole thing at that point was I call it the mantra never point was I call it the mantra never point was I call it the mantra never again. We've got to create a functioning again. We've got to create a functioning again. We've got to create a functioning society where what happened with Hitler society where what happened with Hitler society where what happened with Hitler can never happen again. He had concluded can never happen again. He had concluded can never happen again. He had concluded the problem wasn't Hitler. The problem the problem wasn't Hitler. The problem the problem wasn't Hitler. The problem was the culture in which Hitler could do was the culture in which Hitler could do was the culture in which Hitler could do what Hitler did. And so Ducker's kind of what Hitler did. And so Ducker's kind of what Hitler did. And so Ducker's kind of life purpose at that point became, how

life purpose at that point became, how life purpose at that point became, how do we find the secret to a functioning do we find the secret to a functioning do we find the secret to a functioning society, healthy society, where you society, healthy society, where you society, healthy society, where you can't have things happen like what can't have things happen like what can't have things happen like what happened with Hitler? And his first happened with Hitler? And his first happened with Hitler? And his first thought when he came to America was thought when he came to America was thought when he came to America was that'll be through big business. It's that'll be through big business. It's that'll be through big business. It's got to be business that's got to be the got to be business that's got to be the got to be business that's got to be the one to do it in America. one to do it in America. one to do it in America. >> Interesting. So in in that second phase >> Interesting. So in in that second phase >> Interesting. So in in that second phase of his life uh I think is it Howard SL of his life uh I think is it Howard SL of his life uh I think is it Howard SL whoever the president of GM was which whoever the president of GM was which whoever the president of GM was which was the largest corporation in the world was the largest corporation in the world was the largest corporation in the world at the time he ends up getting their at the time he ends up getting their at the time he ends up getting their agreement to do a management study of agreement to do a management study of agreement to do a management study of their operations. their operations. their operations. >> He got an internal look at General >> He got an internal look at General >> He got an internal look at General Motors and out of that became the top Motors and out of that became the top Motors and out of that became the top like management guru. He's considered like management guru. He's considered like management guru. He's considered the father of modern management actually the father of modern management actually the father of modern management actually like he he wrote he's I think he ended like he he wrote he's I think he ended like he he wrote he's I think he ended up writing 40ome books and just very up writing 40ome books and just very up writing 40ome books and just very very strong but eventually he became very strong but eventually he became very strong but eventually he became very disillusioned on the business side very disillusioned on the business side very disillusioned on the business side the greed the I mean he just felt like the greed the I mean he just felt like the greed the I mean he just felt like okay this isn't the answer to never okay this isn't the answer to never okay this isn't the answer to never again businesses aren't going to be the again businesses aren't going to be the again businesses aren't going to be the ones to solve it so then he focused on ones to solve it so then he focused on ones to solve it so then he focused on nonprofits okay it's got to be the nonprofits okay it's got to be the nonprofits okay it's got to be the nonprofit sector and he did a lot of nonprofit sector and he did a lot of nonprofit sector and he did a lot of good work wrote a book in the nonprofit good work wrote a book in the nonprofit good work wrote a book in the nonprofit sector actor. Now, enter Bob Buford, sector actor. Now, enter Bob Buford, sector actor. Now, enter Bob Buford, Christian business guy. Bob owns a large Christian business guy. Bob owns a large Christian business guy. Bob owns a large cable company.

cable company. cable company. >> Made a lot of money. >> Made a lot of money. >> Made a lot of money. >> Made a lot of money and decided he >> Made a lot of money and decided he >> Made a lot of money and decided he wanted to, you know, when he was selling wanted to, you know, when he was selling wanted to, you know, when he was selling his company, want to spend the rest of his company, want to spend the rest of his company, want to spend the rest of my life giving the money away and making my life giving the money away and making my life giving the money away and making a difference. And Bob ended up being a difference. And Bob ended up being a difference. And Bob ended up being mentored by Ducker for about 25 years. mentored by Ducker for about 25 years. mentored by Ducker for about 25 years. And Ducker tells Bob going into the like And Ducker tells Bob going into the like And Ducker tells Bob going into the like in the early 80s and and this is like in the early 80s and and this is like in the early 80s and and this is like astounding. There's less than 50 astounding. There's less than 50 astounding. There's less than 50 megaurches at the time. And Ducker says megaurches at the time. And Ducker says megaurches at the time. And Ducker says to Bob, "In a hundred years, historians to Bob, "In a hundred years, historians to Bob, "In a hundred years, historians are going to say that the megaurch are going to say that the megaurch are going to say that the megaurch phenomena, he called it the large church phenomena, he called it the large church phenomena, he called it the large church phenomena, is going to be one of the phenomena, is going to be one of the phenomena, is going to be one of the single biggest social phenomenas of the single biggest social phenomenas of the single biggest social phenomenas of the last hundred years." last hundred years." last hundred years." >> Ducker says this, Bob, >> Ducker says this, Bob, >> Ducker says this, Bob, >> this Bob Buford in the early 80s when >> this Bob Buford in the early 80s when >> this Bob Buford in the early 80s when there's less than 50 megaurches. there's less than 50 megaurches. there's less than 50 megaurches. And so Bob is now ready to transition And so Bob is now ready to transition And so Bob is now ready to transition from a marketplace to a kingdom from a marketplace to a kingdom from a marketplace to a kingdom philanthropist. what am I going to do in philanthropist. what am I going to do in philanthropist. what am I going to do in the kingdom? And Bob says to Ducker, "If the kingdom? And Bob says to Ducker, "If the kingdom? And Bob says to Ducker, "If that's the case, what should I do?" that's the case, what should I do?" that's the case, what should I do?" And Ducker says to Bob, "You're going to And Ducker says to Bob, "You're going to And Ducker says to Bob, "You're going to have all these emerging pastors who are have all these emerging pastors who are have all these emerging pastors who are I'll use the word shepherd now, shepherd I'll use the word shepherd now, shepherd I'll use the word shepherd now, shepherd pastors who've not been trained how to pastors who've not been trained how to pastors who've not been trained how to manage large growing things. You should manage large growing things. You should manage large growing things. You should start an organization that brings start an organization that brings start an organization that brings management and leadership to these management and leadership to these management and leadership to these pastors that are going to grow large pastors that are going to grow large pastors that are going to grow large churches. So Bob said, "How should I do churches. So Bob said, "How should I do churches. So Bob said, "How should I do that?" And Ducker said, "Go find 20 that?" And Ducker said, "Go find 20 that?" And Ducker said, "Go find 20 young guys that are young right now that young guys that are young right now that young guys that are young right now that don't have their megaurches yet, but you

don't have their megaurches yet, but you don't have their megaurches yet, but you can ride the wave with them and pour gas can ride the wave with them and pour gas can ride the wave with them and pour gas on what they're doing." So on Bob's desk on what they're doing." So on Bob's desk on what they're doing." So on Bob's desk sat a picture. I I was a personal sat a picture. I I was a personal sat a picture. I I was a personal strategic adviser with him for about 15 strategic adviser with him for about 15 strategic adviser with him for about 15 years and he had a picture on his desk years and he had a picture on his desk years and he had a picture on his desk of the early 1980s gathering in Estus of the early 1980s gathering in Estus of the early 1980s gathering in Estus Park that he and Peter Ducker convened Park that he and Peter Ducker convened Park that he and Peter Ducker convened that original group of about 20 leaders. that original group of about 20 leaders. that original group of about 20 leaders. in the picture of these young 20somes in the picture of these young 20somes in the picture of these young 20somes are Bill Hibbles, are Bill Hibbles, are Bill Hibbles, Randy Pope, the list goes on and on that Randy Pope, the list goes on and on that Randy Pope, the list goes on and on that if you really looked at the Boomer if you really looked at the Boomer if you really looked at the Boomer pastors that you would consider like the pastors that you would consider like the pastors that you would consider like the Hall of Fame of the Boomer, you know, Hall of Fame of the Boomer, you know, Hall of Fame of the Boomer, you know, the Boomer builder pastors that built the Boomer builder pastors that built the Boomer builder pastors that built our megaurch side, they're in that our megaurch side, they're in that our megaurch side, they're in that picture. picture. picture. And so out of that, that was such a big And so out of that, that was such a big And so out of that, that was such a big hit at that first gathering that they hit at that first gathering that they hit at that first gathering that they decided that let's start an organization decided that let's start an organization decided that let's start an organization that continually convenes these pastors that continually convenes these pastors that continually convenes these pastors of what are going to be large churches of what are going to be large churches of what are going to be large churches and help equip them with management and and help equip them with management and and help equip them with management and the different tools that they're going the different tools that they're going the different tools that they're going to need. That took off partly because to need. That took off partly because to need. That took off partly because think what's going on now in the mid think what's going on now in the mid think what's going on now in the mid 80s. There's no internet. There's no 80s. There's no internet. There's no 80s. There's no internet. There's no cell.

cell. cell. >> Yeah. Yeah. That people need to know >> Yeah. Yeah. That people need to know >> Yeah. Yeah. That people need to know that there's no internet. There's not that there's no internet. There's not that there's no internet. There's not that these large p these pastors like that these large p these pastors like that these large p these pastors like Hibbles, there is no peer-to-peer. Hibbles, there is no peer-to-peer. Hibbles, there is no peer-to-peer. What? How do you get peer-to-peer What? How do you get peer-to-peer What? How do you get peer-to-peer learning the way you do it right now? learning the way you do it right now? learning the way you do it right now? >> You can't text your buddy. You can't >> You can't text your buddy. You can't >> You can't text your buddy. You can't swap learnings. I mean, you're either swap learnings. I mean, you're either swap learnings. I mean, you're either books or conferences or cassettes. books or conferences or cassettes. books or conferences or cassettes. That's about it. In fact, when That's about it. In fact, when That's about it. In fact, when Leadership Network started, to give you Leadership Network started, to give you Leadership Network started, to give you perspective, in 1984, perspective, in 1984, perspective, in 1984, the way they communicated, they had a the way they communicated, they had a the way they communicated, they had a list of 5,000 churches fax machine list of 5,000 churches fax machine list of 5,000 churches fax machine numbers, and every week they sent a fax numbers, and every week they sent a fax numbers, and every week they sent a fax to about 5,000 churches with with to about 5,000 churches with with to about 5,000 churches with with equipping information to the churches. I equipping information to the churches. I equipping information to the churches. I mean, we laugh at it right now, Carrie, mean, we laugh at it right now, Carrie, mean, we laugh at it right now, Carrie, but there's but there's but there's >> no I I successfully avoided ever faxing >> no I I successfully avoided ever faxing >> no I I successfully avoided ever faxing much in my life. if it was an outgoing much in my life. if it was an outgoing much in my life. if it was an outgoing technology when I came up and I'm like technology when I came up and I'm like technology when I came up and I'm like I'm not going to learn this one. It's I'm not going to learn this one. It's I'm not going to learn this one. It's not going to be around. So I always not going to be around. So I always not going to be around. So I always think faxes are funny. The leadership think faxes are funny. The leadership think faxes are funny. The leadership network quickly in the mid 80s there network quickly in the mid 80s there network quickly in the mid 80s there became like the pro there's nobody else became like the pro there's nobody else became like the pro there's nobody else doing what they're doing which is doing what they're doing which is doing what they're doing which is convening convening convening pion I'm going to now use the word pion I'm going to now use the word pion I'm going to now use the word pioneering or early you know innovative pioneering or early you know innovative pioneering or early you know innovative pastors that you Bob's philosophy was pastors that you Bob's philosophy was pastors that you Bob's philosophy was let's the the diffusion of innovation let's the the diffusion of innovation let's the the diffusion of innovation curve let's find the two and a half% curve let's find the two and a half% curve let's find the two and a half% that are going to set the pace for that are going to set the pace for that are going to set the pace for everybody else everybody else everybody else >> the innovators and the early adopters >> the innovators and the early adopters >> the innovators and the early adopters >> the innovators and early adopters and So >> the innovators and early adopters and So >> the innovators and early adopters and So you you you >> well if I if I can interrupt again >> well if I if I can interrupt again >> well if I if I can interrupt again interject with my little points one of

interject with my little points one of interject with my little points one of the things I think might have been new the things I think might have been new the things I think might have been new and correct me if I'm wrong is and correct me if I'm wrong is and correct me if I'm wrong is everything prior to that had been everything prior to that had been everything prior to that had been denominational denominational denominational >> right >> right >> right >> and non-denominational was starting and >> and non-denominational was starting and >> and non-denominational was starting and the bottom line is if you were the bottom line is if you were the bottom line is if you were Presbyterian or you were Lutheran or you Presbyterian or you were Lutheran or you Presbyterian or you were Lutheran or you were Episcipalian you stuck to your were Episcipalian you stuck to your were Episcipalian you stuck to your tribe tribe tribe >> right >> right >> right >> but what an organization like leadership >> but what an organization like leadership >> but what an organization like leadership network does did was it just pulled network does did was it just pulled network does did was it just pulled people from all these other areas people from all these other areas people from all these other areas and cross-pollinated and got them in the and cross-pollinated and got them in the and cross-pollinated and got them in the same room together. And we take that for same room together. And we take that for same room together. And we take that for granted now, but that was granted now, but that was granted now, but that was groundbreaking. Like people didn't do groundbreaking. Like people didn't do groundbreaking. Like people didn't do that, that, that, >> right? And in fact, >> right? And in fact, >> right? And in fact, >> is that is that accurate? >> is that is that accurate? >> is that is that accurate? >> Oh, it's totally accurate. I'll give you >> Oh, it's totally accurate. I'll give you >> Oh, it's totally accurate. I'll give you this. Um, we can put this in the show this. Um, we can put this in the show this. Um, we can put this in the show notes for the people that like to look notes for the people that like to look notes for the people that like to look at the history stuff. Um, I I was able at the history stuff. Um, I I was able at the history stuff. Um, I I was able it was a blessing to interview every CEO it was a blessing to interview every CEO it was a blessing to interview every CEO of Leadership Network from its founding of Leadership Network from its founding of Leadership Network from its founding through it its ending. Yeah, it wound through it its ending. Yeah, it wound through it its ending. Yeah, it wound down what 5 10 years ago. down what 5 10 years ago. down what 5 10 years ago. >> Uh 2022. So >> Uh 2022. So >> Uh 2022. So >> Oh, just recently. Okay. I didn't know >> Oh, just recently. Okay. I didn't know >> Oh, just recently. Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah. that. Yeah. that. Yeah. >> Um became part of exponential actually, >> Um became part of exponential actually, >> Um became part of exponential actually, right? Uh toward right? Uh toward right? Uh toward >> That's right. I knew that part.

>> That's right. I knew that part. >> That's right. I knew that part. >> And so Fred Smith Jr. who was the >> And so Fred Smith Jr. who was the >> And so Fred Smith Jr. who was the original uh with Bob join, you know, got original uh with Bob join, you know, got original uh with Bob join, you know, got leadership network going and he was the leadership network going and he was the leadership network going and he was the first president CEO. Fred told me that first president CEO. Fred told me that first president CEO. Fred told me that he gave me the whole detailed history of he gave me the whole detailed history of he gave me the whole detailed history of how they pulled those people together how they pulled those people together how they pulled those people together and why. And there was a report done and why. And there was a report done and why. And there was a report done Carrie back in the early 80s of larger Carrie back in the early 80s of larger Carrie back in the early 80s of larger church they just called it larger church they just called it larger church they just called it larger churches and it was a denominational churches and it was a denominational churches and it was a denominational study that showed there was virtually no study that showed there was virtually no study that showed there was virtually no cross-pollination between the churches cross-pollination between the churches cross-pollination between the churches and that one of the biggest felt needs and that one of the biggest felt needs and that one of the biggest felt needs of the pastors was the peer-to-peer of the pastors was the peer-to-peer of the pastors was the peer-to-peer connection piece. I had multiple I I connection piece. I had multiple I I connection piece. I had multiple I I interviewed as many as I could of guys interviewed as many as I could of guys interviewed as many as I could of guys that were in those early groups. guys that were in those early groups. guys that were in those early groups. guys like Robert Lewis and Randy Pope and like Robert Lewis and Randy Pope and like Robert Lewis and Randy Pope and others and they absolutely confirmed others and they absolutely confirmed others and they absolutely confirmed that the reason they wanted to be at the that the reason they wanted to be at the that the reason they wanted to be at the table was the peer-to-peer connection. table was the peer-to-peer connection. table was the peer-to-peer connection. Um Randy Pope specifically told me, you Um Randy Pope specifically told me, you Um Randy Pope specifically told me, you know, coming from his background that uh know, coming from his background that uh know, coming from his background that uh uh PCA, I think it is, that uh it it uh PCA, I think it is, that uh it it uh PCA, I think it is, that uh it it just was so refreshing to get in a room just was so refreshing to get in a room just was so refreshing to get in a room with other with other lead pastors that with other with other lead pastors that with other with other lead pastors that were wrestling with the same issues and were wrestling with the same issues and were wrestling with the same issues and and give the cross-denominational and give the cross-denominational and give the cross-denominational And what I've discovered, you know, And what I've discovered, you know, And what I've discovered, you know, because I come from a denominational because I come from a denominational because I come from a denominational background is we tend as human beings background is we tend as human beings background is we tend as human beings and as leaders to resonate most with and as leaders to resonate most with and as leaders to resonate most with people who have a similar spirit. You people who have a similar spirit. You people who have a similar spirit. You mentioned entrepreneurial pastors. You mentioned entrepreneurial pastors. You mentioned entrepreneurial pastors. You know, I'm an entrepreneur. Just you can know, I'm an entrepreneur. Just you can know, I'm an entrepreneur. Just you can call it apostilhip. You can call it call it apostilhip. You can call it call it apostilhip. You can call it whatever. But and you also resonate most

whatever. But and you also resonate most whatever. But and you also resonate most with people who are a size the same size with people who are a size the same size with people who are a size the same size a little bit beneath you or a little bit a little bit beneath you or a little bit a little bit beneath you or a little bit above you. above you. above you. >> Right? So, if you're a church of a >> Right? So, if you're a church of a >> Right? So, if you're a church of a thousand, you want to get around thousand, you want to get around thousand, you want to get around somebody with a church of 2,000. And somebody with a church of 2,000. And somebody with a church of 2,000. And it's not that you are, it's not that you are, it's not that you are, you know, upset about being in a room you know, upset about being in a room you know, upset about being in a room with someone with a church of 50. It's with someone with a church of 50. It's with someone with a church of 50. It's just you don't have a lot to talk about just you don't have a lot to talk about just you don't have a lot to talk about because your your your day is not the because your your your day is not the because your your your day is not the same. Your your leadership load is not same. Your your leadership load is not same. Your your leadership load is not the same. And I found, and I think this the same. And I found, and I think this the same. And I found, and I think this is one of the reasons I became is one of the reasons I became is one of the reasons I became non-denominational, there were just non-denominational, there were just non-denominational, there were just fewer and fewer people to talk to in our fewer and fewer people to talk to in our fewer and fewer people to talk to in our denomination as our church grew. And I denomination as our church grew. And I denomination as our church grew. And I realized how I was wired. And I was realized how I was wired. And I was realized how I was wired. And I was always jumping on planes and going to always jumping on planes and going to always jumping on planes and going to conferences and you know in the internet conferences and you know in the internet conferences and you know in the internet like on the internet trying to find like on the internet trying to find like on the internet trying to find like-minded leaders and I found that like-minded leaders and I found that like-minded leaders and I found that tribe and people today I mean if you tribe and people today I mean if you tribe and people today I mean if you started in leadership in the last 15 started in leadership in the last 15 started in leadership in the last 15 years you're like well of course no years you're like well of course no years you're like well of course no that's like that's new man that's new that's like that's new man that's new that's like that's new man that's new >> right right >> right right >> right right >> so and Buford started um as sort of his >> so and Buford started um as sort of his >> so and Buford started um as sort of his philanthropic philanthropic endeavor he philanthropic philanthropic endeavor he philanthropic philanthropic endeavor he started a leadership network started started a leadership network started started a leadership network started 1984 1984 1984 >> in 1984 and then a few years later he >> in 1984 and then a few years later he >> in 1984 and then a few years later he wrote the book Halime moving from wrote the book Halime moving from wrote the book Halime moving from success to significance. So he had sort success to significance. So he had sort success to significance. So he had sort of one foot in the poor gas on the me of one foot in the poor gas on the me of one foot in the poor gas on the me what would become the megaurch phenomena what would become the megaurch phenomena what would become the megaurch phenomena but his real heartbeat was seeing but his real heartbeat was seeing but his real heartbeat was seeing individual leaders like he was mobilized individual leaders like he was mobilized individual leaders like he was mobilized in their calling like how do we act so in their calling like how do we act so in their calling like how do we act so his personal mission statement was his personal mission statement was his personal mission statement was activating the latent capacity of

activating the latent capacity of activating the latent capacity of Christianity into active energy and so Christianity into active energy and so Christianity into active energy and so he he also had the leadership network he he also had the leadership network he he also had the leadership network piece um we or halftime piece so we're piece um we or halftime piece so we're piece um we or halftime piece so we're mid to late 80s is really where we would mid to late 80s is really where we would mid to late 80s is really where we would say say say we're starting to put some gas on what we're starting to put some gas on what we're starting to put some gas on what would become this megaurch phenomena. would become this megaurch phenomena. would become this megaurch phenomena. There's, you know, we're There's, you know, we're There's, you know, we're >> this is premulticight. This is just >> this is premulticight. This is just >> this is premulticight. This is just churches getting bigger. churches getting bigger. churches getting bigger. >> Yeah, we're way premulti-sight right >> Yeah, we're way premulti-sight right >> Yeah, we're way premulti-sight right now. This is focused on helping churches now. This is focused on helping churches now. This is focused on helping churches get bigger at this point. And I mean, get bigger at this point. And I mean, get bigger at this point. And I mean, who doesn't want to get bigger? And it's who doesn't want to get bigger? And it's who doesn't want to get bigger? And it's a the word phenomena is the right. It's a the word phenomena is the right. It's a the word phenomena is the right. It's the large church phenomena. How do we the large church phenomena. How do we the large church phenomena. How do we support doing this? Now there's an support doing this? Now there's an support doing this? Now there's an accelerator that now comes along. While accelerator that now comes along. While accelerator that now comes along. While well let me highlight two things. The well let me highlight two things. The well let me highlight two things. The entire church growth industry as we know entire church growth industry as we know entire church growth industry as we know it today. Make a list of 50 it today. Make a list of 50 it today. Make a list of 50 organizations helping with church organizations helping with church organizations helping with church growth. That is an in if you think of it growth. That is an in if you think of it growth. That is an in if you think of it as an industry in a positive way. It's as an industry in a positive way. It's as an industry in a positive way. It's an industry that did not exist in 1985.

an industry that did not exist in 1985. an industry that did not exist in 1985. It literally didn't exist. What did It literally didn't exist. What did It literally didn't exist. What did start happening was individual start happening was individual start happening was individual consultants, consultants, consultants, guys like Lyall Shower, Carl George, guys like Lyall Shower, Carl George, guys like Lyall Shower, Carl George, >> Bill Eim, >> Bill Eim, >> Bill Eim, >> Bill Eim is a huge voice in this, >> Bill Eim is a huge voice in this, >> Bill Eim is a huge voice in this, interviewed him for this book, too. So, interviewed him for this book, too. So, interviewed him for this book, too. So, you're getting these sort of legendary you're getting these sort of legendary you're getting these sort of legendary consultants that are speaking into consultants that are speaking into consultants that are speaking into things, but then sprinkled around them, things, but then sprinkled around them, things, but then sprinkled around them, an entire industry is born. an entire industry is born. an entire industry is born. capital campaigns, generosity campaigns, capital campaigns, generosity campaigns, capital campaigns, generosity campaigns, building architectural firms, church building architectural firms, church building architectural firms, church marketing companies, church design marketing companies, church design marketing companies, church design companies. It It's just if you drew a companies. It It's just if you drew a companies. It It's just if you drew a curve of the exponential growth of curve of the exponential growth of curve of the exponential growth of support ministries. It it didn't exist support ministries. It it didn't exist support ministries. It it didn't exist before 1985. It we're we're seeing that before 1985. It we're we're seeing that before 1985. It we're we're seeing that factor happening now. We're seeing factor happening now. We're seeing factor happening now. We're seeing consultants ramping up. But here's the consultants ramping up. But here's the consultants ramping up. But here's the real jetack in my opinion. real jetack in my opinion. real jetack in my opinion. this young kid, Rick Warren, who's now this young kid, Rick Warren, who's now this young kid, Rick Warren, who's now grown his church bigger, grown his church bigger, grown his church bigger, >> he hasn't yet written the purpose-driven >> he hasn't yet written the purpose-driven >> he hasn't yet written the purpose-driven church, but he starts doing seminars church, but he starts doing seminars church, but he starts doing seminars on his principles, the purpose-driven on his principles, the purpose-driven on his principles, the purpose-driven church. And this is what's fascinating.

church. And this is what's fascinating. church. And this is what's fascinating. 1990. Now, um the church I'm a part of 1990. Now, um the church I'm a part of 1990. Now, um the church I'm a part of that I'm still on staff at that, you that I'm still on staff at that, you that I'm still on staff at that, you know, founded Exponential Out of, I know, founded Exponential Out of, I know, founded Exponential Out of, I asked our lead pastor, our church asked our lead pastor, our church asked our lead pastor, our church started in 1994, tell me the three most started in 1994, tell me the three most started in 1994, tell me the three most significant things that you looked at or significant things that you looked at or significant things that you looked at or did to start the church in 19 1993. did to start the church in 19 1993. did to start the church in 19 1993. >> So, no, that's easy. Rick Warren let he >> So, no, that's easy. Rick Warren let he >> So, no, that's easy. Rick Warren let he did 13 cities where he did this tour did 13 cities where he did this tour did 13 cities where he did this tour talking about purpose- driven churches. talking about purpose- driven churches. talking about purpose- driven churches. I took furious notes and you know it was I took furious notes and you know it was I took furious notes and you know it was this Rick Warren purpose-driven thing this Rick Warren purpose-driven thing this Rick Warren purpose-driven thing before there was ever a book. And and before there was ever a book. And and before there was ever a book. And and guess what number two was? Those Fuller guess what number two was? Those Fuller guess what number two was? Those Fuller conferences. conferences. conferences. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And here's what's fun for me in the >> And here's what's fun for me in the >> And here's what's fun for me in the story is Bob Buford, if we're back to story is Bob Buford, if we're back to story is Bob Buford, if we're back to Leadership Network now, Bob saw one of Leadership Network now, Bob saw one of Leadership Network now, Bob saw one of the Rick Warren's training things. the Rick Warren's training things. the Rick Warren's training things. >> Yeah. said, "Every church, every church >> Yeah. said, "Every church, every church >> Yeah. said, "Every church, every church needs this."

needs this." needs this." >> And Bob funded the whole year's city >> And Bob funded the whole year's city >> And Bob funded the whole year's city tour events, 13 city tour events to take tour events, 13 city tour events to take tour events, 13 city tour events to take that across the country. One of which that across the country. One of which that across the country. One of which was the one of my home church that was the one of my home church that was the one of my home church that became church. Yes. It became a church became church. Yes. It became a church became church. Yes. It became a church of of uh attending the thing. And so of of uh attending the thing. And so of of uh attending the thing. And so here's what happened, Carrie. It's it's here's what happened, Carrie. It's it's here's what happened, Carrie. It's it's fascinating because you and I grew up in fascinating because you and I grew up in fascinating because you and I grew up in it. We just take for granted the it. We just take for granted the it. We just take for granted the purpose-driven model and the baseball purpose-driven model and the baseball purpose-driven model and the baseball diamond and the concentric circles. And diamond and the concentric circles. And diamond and the concentric circles. And >> it came out the year I started uh at the >> it came out the year I started uh at the >> it came out the year I started uh at the three little churches that would go on three little churches that would go on three little churches that would go on to become Kexus. And I remember getting to become Kexus. And I remember getting to become Kexus. And I remember getting an early copy and going, "Oh my an early copy and going, "Oh my an early copy and going, "Oh my goodness, this is a revolutionary." goodness, this is a revolutionary." goodness, this is a revolutionary." >> Yeah. And here's here's what where >> Yeah. And here's here's what where >> Yeah. And here's here's what where things start to converge a little bit things start to converge a little bit things start to converge a little bit that most people don't understand the that most people don't understand the that most people don't understand the history on. So I like to call the history on. So I like to call the history on. So I like to call the purpose- driven and you can say model. purpose- driven and you can say model. purpose- driven and you can say model. It's really a set of principles. It's really a set of principles. It's really a set of principles. >> Yeah. Um, I call it the jetpack on the >> Yeah. Um, I call it the jetpack on the >> Yeah. Um, I call it the jetpack on the church growth phenomena. Like, it's the church growth phenomena. Like, it's the church growth phenomena. Like, it's the jetpack. And here's why. Rick is a jetpack. And here's why. Rick is a jetpack. And here's why. Rick is a master at taking something complicated master at taking something complicated master at taking something complicated and simplifying it into something really and simplifying it into something really and simplifying it into something really easy to understand.

easy to understand. easy to understand. >> Okay? So, follow my logic in this. Peter >> Okay? So, follow my logic in this. Peter >> Okay? So, follow my logic in this. Peter Ducker, I'm going to go back to Peter Ducker, I'm going to go back to Peter Ducker, I'm going to go back to Peter Ducker. Peter Ducker was mentoring Ducker. Peter Ducker was mentoring Ducker. Peter Ducker was mentoring Bill Hibbels Bill Hibbels Bill Hibbels and uh Rick and Rick Warren. and uh Rick and Rick Warren. and uh Rick and Rick Warren. Okay, we're back in the 80s. There's a Okay, we're back in the 80s. There's a Okay, we're back in the 80s. There's a mentoring relationship. Ducker's most mentoring relationship. Ducker's most mentoring relationship. Ducker's most famous work in management is what's famous work in management is what's famous work in management is what's called the five most important questions called the five most important questions called the five most important questions you'll ever ask your organization. you'll ever ask your organization. you'll ever ask your organization. >> Who's the customer? What do they value? >> Who's the customer? What do they value? >> Who's the customer? What do they value? How do you deliver it? How do you know How do you deliver it? How do you know How do you deliver it? How do you know what difference you're making? But it's what difference you're making? But it's what difference you're making? But it's who's the customer? So if you go read who's the customer? So if you go read who's the customer? So if you go read the purpose-driven church through the the purpose-driven church through the the purpose-driven church through the lens of who's the customer, lens of who's the customer, lens of who's the customer, that is Ducker's impact. Okay. that is Ducker's impact. Okay. that is Ducker's impact. Okay. >> Yeah. And that was the whole seeker >> Yeah. And that was the whole seeker >> Yeah. And that was the whole seeker sensitive movement. sensitive movement. sensitive movement. >> It's what ties it all together. It >> It's what ties it all together. It >> It's what ties it all together. It influenced Hibles with the seeker influenced Hibles with the seeker influenced Hibles with the seeker movement. Who's the customer? What do movement. Who's the customer? What do movement. Who's the customer? What do they value? How do you deliver it?

they value? How do you deliver it? they value? How do you deliver it? >> It influenced Warren. Who's the >> It influenced Warren. Who's the >> It influenced Warren. Who's the customer? How do you how do you deliver customer? How do you how do you deliver customer? How do you how do you deliver it? And so now read the purpose-driven it? And so now read the purpose-driven it? And so now read the purpose-driven church through that lens. Saddleback, church through that lens. Saddleback, church through that lens. Saddleback, Sam, and Samantha. After Rick goes and Sam, and Samantha. After Rick goes and Sam, and Samantha. After Rick goes and does all of his surveys in the community does all of his surveys in the community does all of his surveys in the community and figures out what the community and figures out what the community and figures out what the community needs, he boils it down to two avatars. needs, he boils it down to two avatars. needs, he boils it down to two avatars. Saddleback, Sam, and Sally. Saddleback, Sam, and Sally. Saddleback, Sam, and Sally. >> I don't remember the exact 32 years old, >> I don't remember the exact 32 years old, >> I don't remember the exact 32 years old, married, 2.5 kids. married, 2.5 kids. married, 2.5 kids. >> Here's their income. This is where they >> Here's their income. This is where they >> Here's their income. This is where they live. live. live. >> Here's where they live. Now, how are we >> Here's where they live. Now, how are we >> Here's where they live. Now, how are we going to reach them and meet their felt going to reach them and meet their felt going to reach them and meet their felt needs? There better be a parking needs? There better be a parking needs? There better be a parking attendant in the parking lot so they're attendant in the parking lot so they're attendant in the parking lot so they're not confused when they get there and the not confused when they get there and the not confused when they get there and the experience they have when they come in. experience they have when they come in. experience they have when they come in. There ought to be friendly greeters with There ought to be friendly greeters with There ought to be friendly greeters with food with whatever. We better have high food with whatever. We better have high food with whatever. We better have high quality Sunday services. You can start quality Sunday services. You can start quality Sunday services. You can start to see this. This is the cross current to see this. This is the cross current to see this. This is the cross current carry. It's like man this is such a safe carry. It's like man this is such a safe carry. It's like man this is such a safe good way to reach more people good way to reach more people good way to reach more people and yet we're playing to felt needs not and yet we're playing to felt needs not and yet we're playing to felt needs not real needs right now.

real needs right now. real needs right now. >> There you go. felt needs, not real >> There you go. felt needs, not real >> There you go. felt needs, not real needs. What do you mean, Todd? needs. What do you mean, Todd? needs. What do you mean, Todd? >> I we know the real needs of these lost >> I we know the real needs of these lost >> I we know the real needs of these lost people is knowing Jesus, surrendering people is knowing Jesus, surrendering people is knowing Jesus, surrendering fully to Jesus, and being on a path of a fully to Jesus, and being on a path of a fully to Jesus, and being on a path of a surrendered life. And so, Rick was a surrendered life. And so, Rick was a surrendered life. And so, Rick was a genius at this. He he has a baseball genius at this. He he has a baseball genius at this. He he has a baseball diamond is in the purpose-driven church. diamond is in the purpose-driven church. diamond is in the purpose-driven church. And the idea is how do we move people And the idea is how do we move people And the idea is how do we move people spiritual growth from to first base and spiritual growth from to first base and spiritual growth from to first base and let's just call first base conversion. let's just call first base conversion. let's just call first base conversion. Let's get them saved. And we move them Let's get them saved. And we move them Let's get them saved. And we move them around the bases through increasing around the bases through increasing around the bases through increasing maturity of serving and eventually maturity of serving and eventually maturity of serving and eventually fourth basis mobilizing like mobilizing fourth basis mobilizing like mobilizing fourth basis mobilizing like mobilizing beyond the church kind of thing. Well, beyond the church kind of thing. Well, beyond the church kind of thing. Well, here's what ends up happening, Carrie. here's what ends up happening, Carrie. here's what ends up happening, Carrie. And I mean, I've looked at this hard is And I mean, I've looked at this hard is And I mean, I've looked at this hard is winning was originally let's get people winning was originally let's get people winning was originally let's get people around the bases and get them developed around the bases and get them developed around the bases and get them developed and fully surrendered and going. And and fully surrendered and going. And and fully surrendered and going. And here's what we've done in the US church.

here's what we've done in the US church. here's what we've done in the US church. Winning is getting the most possible Winning is getting the most possible Winning is getting the most possible people to first base. people to first base. people to first base. >> Yeah, exactly. Just fill the room. Fill >> Yeah, exactly. Just fill the room. Fill >> Yeah, exactly. Just fill the room. Fill the room. the room. the room. >> Fill the room. Get as many and let's get >> Fill the room. Get as many and let's get >> Fill the room. Get as many and let's get them saved. Regardless of the quality of them saved. Regardless of the quality of them saved. Regardless of the quality of the process, regardless of the the process, regardless of the the process, regardless of the surrender, surrender, surrender, say a prayer and get them saved. And it say a prayer and get them saved. And it say a prayer and get them saved. And it and there's not necessarily a life and there's not necessarily a life and there's not necessarily a life change which when your question is change which when your question is change which when your question is what's the real need versus the felt what's the real need versus the felt what's the real need versus the felt need. What ends up happening when need. What ends up happening when need. What ends up happening when winning becomes filling the room. We got winning becomes filling the room. We got winning becomes filling the room. We got to go after their felt need. What do to go after their felt need. What do to go after their felt need. What do they need? Oh, they're having a marriage they need? Oh, they're having a marriage they need? Oh, they're having a marriage problem. Oh, they're having a this. problem. Oh, they're having a this. problem. Oh, they're having a this. They're having that. We We end up with a They're having that. We We end up with a They're having that. We We end up with a a I'm going to call it a programmatic a I'm going to call it a programmatic a I'm going to call it a programmatic Sunday centric thing. That's how you Sunday centric thing. That's how you Sunday centric thing. That's how you serve the masses. serve the masses. serve the masses. Yeah, it's a good point. Now, Rick was Yeah, it's a good point. Now, Rick was Yeah, it's a good point. Now, Rick was on a few months ago and he said, uh, the on a few months ago and he said, uh, the on a few months ago and he said, uh, the one thing he said, 1% of churches get one thing he said, 1% of churches get one thing he said, 1% of churches get this because, you know, you start a this because, you know, you start a this because, you know, you start a movement and you can't be responsible movement and you can't be responsible movement and you can't be responsible for what people do with it. Or, I write for what people do with it. Or, I write for what people do with it. Or, I write a book, you write a book, you can't be a book, you write a book, you can't be a book, you write a book, you can't be responsible, you can be responsible for responsible, you can be responsible for responsible, you can be responsible for what you put in it, you can't be what you put in it, you can't be what you put in it, you can't be responsible for what people take out of responsible for what people take out of responsible for what people take out of it. You can do your best, but he said, I it. You can do your best, but he said, I it. You can do your best, but he said, I think I I'm paraphrasing him accurately think I I'm paraphrasing him accurately think I I'm paraphrasing him accurately here. Rick said on this podcast, he here. Rick said on this podcast, he here. Rick said on this podcast, he says, "Everybody says, "Come and see."

says, "Everybody says, "Come and see." says, "Everybody says, "Come and see." That's the attractional model. Come and That's the attractional model. Come and That's the attractional model. Come and see. Come and see. He says, "But here's see. Come and see. He says, "But here's see. Come and see. He says, "But here's what only 1% of pastors and churches what only 1% of pastors and churches what only 1% of pastors and churches get." get." get." >> You got to take people from come and see >> You got to take people from come and see >> You got to take people from come and see to come and die. to come and die. to come and die. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He said, "That's what Jesus did." So, I >> He said, "That's what Jesus did." So, I >> He said, "That's what Jesus did." So, I think that was in the model like, and think that was in the model like, and think that was in the model like, and that's like Willow was for, you know, that's like Willow was for, you know, that's like Willow was for, you know, all the challenges we had with Willow. all the challenges we had with Willow. all the challenges we had with Willow. It was like to make people fully devoted It was like to make people fully devoted It was like to make people fully devoted followers of Jesus. followers of Jesus. followers of Jesus. >> But but people seized on the filling the >> But but people seized on the filling the >> But but people seized on the filling the room and then we ended up with, you room and then we ended up with, you room and then we ended up with, you know, light versions of all that and know, light versions of all that and know, light versions of all that and distorted versions of all that and then distorted versions of all that and then distorted versions of all that and then there was a fly in the ointment and you there was a fly in the ointment and you there was a fly in the ointment and you end up with a consumer mentality. You're end up with a consumer mentality. You're end up with a consumer mentality. You're right. You're kind of co-opting the right. You're kind of co-opting the right. You're kind of co-opting the culture to reach the culture and you end culture to reach the culture and you end culture to reach the culture and you end up with a compromise. That's why Krie I up with a compromise. That's why Krie I up with a compromise. That's why Krie I mean I let's not be afraid of the word mean I let's not be afraid of the word mean I let's not be afraid of the word co-opted for a minute because co-opted for a minute because co-opted for a minute because >> our first co-opting as a was of >> our first co-opting as a was of >> our first co-opting as a was of McGabvern's ideals McGabvern's ideals McGabvern's ideals >> sure which were basically for the >> sure which were basically for the >> sure which were basically for the mission field mission field mission field >> was for the mission field and was for >> was for the mission field and was for >> was for the mission field and was for gospel saturation through disciplem his gospel saturation through disciplem his gospel saturation through disciplem his paradigm wasn't even a US setting but it paradigm wasn't even a US setting but it paradigm wasn't even a US setting but it those ideals do get for some positive those ideals do get for some positive those ideals do get for some positive reasons co-opted now we get to Warren's reasons co-opted now we get to Warren's reasons co-opted now we get to Warren's model and the power of the model and the power of the model and the power of the purpose-driven model. Easy language, purpose-driven model. Easy language, purpose-driven model. Easy language, easily embraceable. You don't have to easily embraceable. You don't have to easily embraceable. You don't have to have a degree in anything to implement have a degree in anything to implement have a degree in anything to implement his model. You could a ninth grader can his model. You could a ninth grader can his model. You could a ninth grader can understand the model.

understand the model. understand the model. >> He's genius at that. Complicated ideas >> He's genius at that. Complicated ideas >> He's genius at that. Complicated ideas simply expressed simply expressed simply expressed >> and and it's so simple and so powerful >> and and it's so simple and so powerful >> and and it's so simple and so powerful that 15 years ago, Carrie, if I was that 15 years ago, Carrie, if I was that 15 years ago, Carrie, if I was teaching a room of 50 church planners teaching a room of 50 church planners teaching a room of 50 church planners something, I'd always open up with, "How something, I'd always open up with, "How something, I'd always open up with, "How many of you have read the purpose-driven many of you have read the purpose-driven many of you have read the purpose-driven church?" And 15 to 20 years ago, every church?" And 15 to 20 years ago, every church?" And 15 to 20 years ago, every hand in the room goes up. I'm gonna hand hand in the room goes up. I'm gonna hand hand in the room goes up. I'm gonna hand I'm gonna suggest to you that 50% of I'm gonna suggest to you that 50% of I'm gonna suggest to you that 50% of megaurches in America right now were megaurches in America right now were megaurches in America right now were founded by someone using intentionally founded by someone using intentionally founded by someone using intentionally using the purpose-driven model. using the purpose-driven model. using the purpose-driven model. >> And this is the challenge for millennial >> And this is the challenge for millennial >> And this is the challenge for millennial and Gen Z leaders taking over. They and Gen Z leaders taking over. They and Gen Z leaders taking over. They don't understand. They're like, why is don't understand. They're like, why is don't understand. They're like, why is it this way? They haven't connected the it this way? They haven't connected the it this way? They haven't connected the dots. Right? Back to my seminary dots. Right? Back to my seminary dots. Right? Back to my seminary illustration. It's like, no, actually, illustration. It's like, no, actually, illustration. It's like, no, actually, this is probably somewhere in the DNA of this is probably somewhere in the DNA of this is probably somewhere in the DNA of your church, and you don't know why you your church, and you don't know why you your church, and you don't know why you like it, and you don't know why you like it, and you don't know why you like it, and you don't know why you don't like it. This is why don't like it. This is why don't like it. This is why >> it's it absolutely is in there. This the >> it's it absolutely is in there. This the >> it's it absolutely is in there. This the book I told you I started out to write, book I told you I started out to write, book I told you I started out to write, but now it's the second book. It I but now it's the second book. It I but now it's the second book. It I identified what I call 12 dilemmas that identified what I call 12 dilemmas that identified what I call 12 dilemmas that we face. A dilemma is something it can we face. A dilemma is something it can we face. A dilemma is something it can be good. Is it this or is it this? Is it be good. Is it this or is it this? Is it be good. Is it this or is it this? Is it this or is it this? And we literally this or is it this? And we literally this or is it this? And we literally have a history right now in this modern have a history right now in this modern have a history right now in this modern church growth movement where church growth movement where church growth movement where well-intentioned people were faced with well-intentioned people were faced with well-intentioned people were faced with decisions. They can't always control decisions. They can't always control decisions. They can't always control what's going to come after them. And we what's going to come after them. And we what's going to come after them. And we have created a bunch of dilemmas that we have created a bunch of dilemmas that we have created a bunch of dilemmas that we now have to figure out how to undo. And now have to figure out how to undo. And now have to figure out how to undo. And one of those dilemmas, Carrie, is the one of those dilemmas, Carrie, is the one of those dilemmas, Carrie, is the dilemma of inheritance.

dilemma of inheritance. dilemma of inheritance. It's the dilemma that if if you we're on It's the dilemma that if if you we're on It's the dilemma that if if you we're on the international mission field and we the international mission field and we the international mission field and we want to start a movement, guess what? We want to start a movement, guess what? We want to start a movement, guess what? We start with three or three to six months start with three or three to six months start with three or three to six months of prayer and fasting. Let's hear God of prayer and fasting. Let's hear God of prayer and fasting. Let's hear God and what it is we need to do. If you're and what it is we need to do. If you're and what it is we need to do. If you're starting a church in the US, what do you starting a church in the US, what do you starting a church in the US, what do you do for the first 3 to 6 months? You do for the first 3 to 6 months? You do for the first 3 to 6 months? You start with an inherited model and you start with an inherited model and you start with an inherited model and you got a certain cash flow time period to got a certain cash flow time period to got a certain cash flow time period to get things going. There's no time to go get things going. There's no time to go get things going. There's no time to go undo anything. You're inheriting what's undo anything. You're inheriting what's undo anything. You're inheriting what's there. And what I started to say is 15 there. And what I started to say is 15 there. And what I started to say is 15 to 20 years ago, every hand in the room to 20 years ago, every hand in the room to 20 years ago, every hand in the room would go up. Have you read the would go up. Have you read the would go up. Have you read the purpose-driven church? purpose-driven church? purpose-driven church? that same thing today. Ask a room full that same thing today. Ask a room full that same thing today. Ask a room full of 50 planters, how many of you have of 50 planters, how many of you have of 50 planters, how many of you have read the church, the the purpose-driven read the church, the the purpose-driven read the church, the the purpose-driven church? One or two hands go up and the church? One or two hands go up and the church? One or two hands go up and the answer is don't worry about reading it. answer is don't worry about reading it. answer is don't worry about reading it. You don't need to because it is now so You don't need to because it is now so You don't need to because it is now so embedded in the operating system of our embedded in the operating system of our embedded in the operating system of our of how we do church in the US that of how we do church in the US that of how we do church in the US that you'll have to do a strategy to undo it. you'll have to do a strategy to undo it. you'll have to do a strategy to undo it. You don't need to learn how to do it. You don't need to learn how to do it. You don't need to learn how to do it. You've got to do a strategy to undo it.

You've got to do a strategy to undo it. You've got to do a strategy to undo it. And that's where the paradox is going to And that's where the paradox is going to And that's where the paradox is going to come in for Gen Z and Gen Alpha is we I come in for Gen Z and Gen Alpha is we I come in for Gen Z and Gen Alpha is we I would say it this way generationally would say it this way generationally would say it this way generationally Carrie the boomers largely built what Carrie the boomers largely built what Carrie the boomers largely built what we've got. Rick's a boomer and good we've got. Rick's a boomer and good we've got. Rick's a boomer and good intentions good things built it. The intentions good things built it. The intentions good things built it. The current gatekeepers of the church from current gatekeepers of the church from current gatekeepers of the church from my research here the current gatekeepers my research here the current gatekeepers my research here the current gatekeepers are now Gen X. are now Gen X. are now Gen X. >> It's Gen X. >> It's Gen X. >> It's Gen X. >> Yeah. Yeah. My generation is the new >> Yeah. Yeah. My generation is the new >> Yeah. Yeah. My generation is the new senior generation. you are the senior generation. you are the senior generation. you are the gatekeepers and it's passing to gatekeepers and it's passing to gatekeepers and it's passing to millennials guys like Andy Cook and you millennials guys like Andy Cook and you millennials guys like Andy Cook and you start looking at the number start looking at the number start looking at the number >> at Saddlebacky >> at Saddlebacky >> at Saddlebacky Andy Wood at Saddleback Josh Howard you Andy Wood at Saddleback Josh Howard you Andy Wood at Saddleback Josh Howard you you've got a growing number of you've got a growing number of you've got a growing number of millennials and here's the thing millennials and here's the thing millennials and here's the thing >> from Boomer to Gen X to Millennial it's >> from Boomer to Gen X to Millennial it's >> from Boomer to Gen X to Millennial it's essentially passing the same operating essentially passing the same operating essentially passing the same operating system on passing on these things system on passing on these things system on passing on these things >> we've we've we've changed we paint >> we've we've we've changed we paint >> we've we've we've changed we paint painted the car a different color we uh painted the car a different color we uh painted the car a different color we uh you know put some new wheels on, but you know put some new wheels on, but you know put some new wheels on, but it's still the same car. it's still the same car. it's still the same car. >> And the challenge, we'll get to this >> And the challenge, we'll get to this >> And the challenge, we'll get to this eventually, but the challenge we're eventually, but the challenge we're eventually, but the challenge we're going to have, Krie, is we really are, I going to have, Krie, is we really are, I going to have, Krie, is we really are, I mean, I'm going to say this, I feel mean, I'm going to say this, I feel mean, I'm going to say this, I feel strongly about it. We're we're we're 60 strongly about it. We're we're we're 60 strongly about it. We're we're we're 60 years into an evolutionary process right years into an evolutionary process right years into an evolutionary process right now. It's not actually radically now. It's not actually radically now. It's not actually radically revolutionary what's happened. It's that revolutionary what's happened. It's that revolutionary what's happened. It's that this timeline when you put it all this timeline when you put it all this timeline when you put it all together. Yeah, multi-sight's together. Yeah, multi-sight's together. Yeah, multi-sight's innovative, but all it is is another innovative, but all it is is another innovative, but all it is is another service in a different location.

service in a different location. service in a different location. Okay. Yeah, externally focused. That's Okay. Yeah, externally focused. That's Okay. Yeah, externally focused. That's an innovation. But gee, ser sure seems an innovation. But gee, ser sure seems an innovation. But gee, ser sure seems like the church has been externally like the church has been externally like the church has been externally focused for 2,000 years. Oh, missional. focused for 2,000 years. Oh, missional. focused for 2,000 years. Oh, missional. Yeah, that's an innovation. But gee, the Yeah, that's an innovation. But gee, the Yeah, that's an innovation. But gee, the church is called to be missional from church is called to be missional from church is called to be missional from day one. So I in some ways even the day one. So I in some ways even the day one. So I in some ways even the things we would say are most innovative things we would say are most innovative things we would say are most innovative in the church we have been evolutionary in the church we have been evolutionary in the church we have been evolutionary around a common operating system that is around a common operating system that is around a common operating system that is rooted in this purpose-driven approach. rooted in this purpose-driven approach. rooted in this purpose-driven approach. It's rooted in It's rooted in It's rooted in >> Yeah. So you think just to date it >> Yeah. So you think just to date it >> Yeah. So you think just to date it because I think this is important. This because I think this is important. This because I think this is important. This is sort of where we all came from and is sort of where we all came from and is sort of where we all came from and what we've all inherited. Um what we've all inherited. Um what we've all inherited. Um that maybe the innovation window was 75 that maybe the innovation window was 75 that maybe the innovation window was 75 to 95. Somewhere in there is where to 95. Somewhere in there is where to 95. Somewhere in there is where things really got it was a fresh things really got it was a fresh things really got it was a fresh thinking. thinking. thinking. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I I I well the way I >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I I I well the way I >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I I I well the way I would clarify what you just said is I would clarify what you just said is I would clarify what you just said is I think by 95 think by 95 think by 95 by 95 we've really seen the m things by 95 we've really seen the m things by 95 we've really seen the m things mature. The purpose-driven model is now mature. The purpose-driven model is now mature. The purpose-driven model is now what's fueling most of the churches that what's fueling most of the churches that what's fueling most of the churches that are getting going. It's fueling the the are getting going. It's fueling the the are getting going. It's fueling the the megaurch phenomena. And what I would say megaurch phenomena. And what I would say megaurch phenomena. And what I would say is by 95 is by 95 is by 95 there's some fascinating things that there's some fascinating things that there's some fascinating things that start happening in the early 90s that we start happening in the early 90s that we start happening in the early 90s that we ought to talk about. But really what's ought to talk about. But really what's ought to talk about. But really what's happening is the institutionalization happening is the institutionalization happening is the institutionalization part is starting to come into play like part is starting to come into play like part is starting to come into play like where it's more the institution but at where it's more the institution but at where it's more the institution but at the same time there's this

the same time there's this the same time there's this entrepreneurial piece happening. So um I entrepreneurial piece happening. So um I entrepreneurial piece happening. So um I kind of name it the entrepreneurial kind of name it the entrepreneurial kind of name it the entrepreneurial area. It's like in it's internally area. It's like in it's internally area. It's like in it's internally focused on institutionalization. focused on institutionalization. focused on institutionalization. But now you get this entire But now you get this entire But now you get this entire look at what's happening. The birth of look at what's happening. The birth of look at what's happening. The birth of modern church planting networks, modern church planting networks, modern church planting networks, multi-sight, the missional conversation, multi-sight, the missional conversation, multi-sight, the missional conversation, the externally focused conversation. All the externally focused conversation. All the externally focused conversation. All of those things are within a 10-year of those things are within a 10-year of those things are within a 10-year time period and they're all rooted in an time period and they're all rooted in an time period and they're all rooted in an entrepreneurial entrepreneurial entrepreneurial outwardly focused thought. But in most outwardly focused thought. But in most outwardly focused thought. But in most of their cases, if we're really honest, of their cases, if we're really honest, of their cases, if we're really honest, there's still church growth strategies there's still church growth strategies there's still church growth strategies for a mothership. for a mothership. for a mothership. >> Sure. One of the other shifts you talk >> Sure. One of the other shifts you talk >> Sure. One of the other shifts you talk about that started to happen in the about that started to happen in the about that started to happen in the early 90s, and this is what I kind of early 90s, and this is what I kind of early 90s, and this is what I kind of inherited, inherited, inherited, >> global leadership summit, you know, it >> global leadership summit, you know, it >> global leadership summit, you know, it went from fuller, it went from itinerant went from fuller, it went from itinerant went from fuller, it went from itinerant speakers speakers speakers >> to, and this was new, churches started >> to, and this was new, churches started >> to, and this was new, churches started hosting conferences. So long before VU hosting conferences. So long before VU hosting conferences. So long before VU conference or anything else like that, conference or anything else like that, conference or anything else like that, there was a global leader. Well, what there was a global leader. Well, what there was a global leader. Well, what was it? It was originally prevailing was it? It was originally prevailing was it? It was originally prevailing church or something. I'm trying to church or something. I'm trying to church or something. I'm trying to remember what they called it back in the remember what they called it back in the remember what they called it back in the day and then it became leadership day and then it became leadership day and then it became leadership >> centuries what leadership network did.

>> centuries what leadership network did. >> centuries what leadership network did. So, we could talk about that for a few So, we could talk about that for a few So, we could talk about that for a few minutes. minutes. minutes. >> Yeah, let's do it. >> Yeah, let's do it. >> Yeah, let's do it. >> Yeah. So, um this was another eye opener >> Yeah. So, um this was another eye opener >> Yeah. So, um this was another eye opener for me, Carrie. I mean, I I was in the for me, Carrie. I mean, I I was in the for me, Carrie. I mean, I I was in the marketplace in the 90s and at a at a marketplace in the 90s and at a at a marketplace in the 90s and at a at a very good organization, one of the top very good organization, one of the top very good organization, one of the top in the world engineering wise. And in the world engineering wise. And in the world engineering wise. And here's what's fascinating to me. In here's what's fascinating to me. In here's what's fascinating to me. In 1995, 1995, 1995, we never used the word leadership. we never used the word leadership. we never used the word leadership. >> I I'm I'm telling you, we we ne it >> I I'm I'm telling you, we we ne it >> I I'm I'm telling you, we we ne it wasn't a word. In fact, if you go back wasn't a word. In fact, if you go back wasn't a word. In fact, if you go back and look at what had been going on from and look at what had been going on from and look at what had been going on from the 60s through 95, management's the the 60s through 95, management's the the 60s through 95, management's the thing people talk about, quality thing people talk about, quality thing people talk about, quality management, six sigma, really management, six sigma, really management, six sigma, really management's what everybody's talking management's what everybody's talking management's what everybody's talking about. So, when I came into ministry in about. So, when I came into ministry in about. So, when I came into ministry in the late 90s, I I had no paradigm for the late 90s, I I had no paradigm for the late 90s, I I had no paradigm for leadership. like it it for me management leadership. like it it for me management leadership. like it it for me management was the deal. Here's what's fascinating was the deal. Here's what's fascinating was the deal. Here's what's fascinating in the work I did on this book. I went in the work I did on this book. I went in the work I did on this book. I went back to look at the history of back to look at the history of back to look at the history of leadership in the church like just the leadership in the church like just the leadership in the church like just the history of it. And one simple metric was history of it. And one simple metric was history of it. And one simple metric was to look at leadership publications from to look at leadership publications from to look at leadership publications from 1900 to 2025. Mhm.

1900 to 2025. Mhm. 1900 to 2025. Mhm. >> I've got a graph of that of leadership >> I've got a graph of that of leadership >> I've got a graph of that of leadership publications from 19 from 1900 publications from 19 from 1900 publications from 19 from 1900 to 1985. to 1985. to 1985. So 85 years. So 85 years. So 85 years. Now go 85 there. There's almost no Now go 85 there. There's almost no Now go 85 there. There's almost no leadership publications happening. leadership publications happening. leadership publications happening. Almost none. It's very low. In fact, in Almost none. It's very low. In fact, in Almost none. It's very low. In fact, in the church space, leadership is all the church space, leadership is all the church space, leadership is all about character, being men and women of about character, being men and women of about character, being men and women of God. It's it's not the enterprise side God. It's it's not the enterprise side God. It's it's not the enterprise side of leadership. It's the personal side of leadership. It's the personal side of leadership. It's the personal side which is where we have a lot of our which is where we have a lot of our which is where we have a lot of our struggles in church today. struggles in church today. struggles in church today. >> Yeah. Which which we should be focused >> Yeah. Which which we should be focused >> Yeah. Which which we should be focused on that. Yeah. on that. Yeah. on that. Yeah. >> And what I'm saying is from 1900 to 1985 >> And what I'm saying is from 1900 to 1985 >> And what I'm saying is from 1900 to 1985 leadership focus was on personal leadership focus was on personal leadership focus was on personal integrity issues being men and women of integrity issues being men and women of integrity issues being men and women of God. You just don't get much of anything God. You just don't get much of anything God. You just don't get much of anything on what I call the enterprise part of on what I call the enterprise part of on what I call the enterprise part of things. Okay. So look what happens now things. Okay. So look what happens now things. Okay. So look what happens now from 85 to 95. from 85 to 95. from 85 to 95. There are as many leadership There are as many leadership There are as many leadership publications done in 10 years as the publications done in 10 years as the publications done in 10 years as the collective of all the leadership collective of all the leadership collective of all the leadership resources from 1900 to 1985.

resources from 1900 to 1985. resources from 1900 to 1985. From 95 to 2005 it quadruples. From 95 to 2005 it quadruples. From 95 to 2005 it quadruples. It's an exponential curve. It's an exponential curve. It's an exponential curve. >> I remember and it's still going up right >> I remember and it's still going up right >> I remember and it's still going up right if I remember that chart from your book. if I remember that chart from your book. if I remember that chart from your book. Like it's off the charts now. What I Like it's off the charts now. What I Like it's off the charts now. What I ended up realizing is what I would say ended up realizing is what I would say ended up realizing is what I would say is the birth of the modern church uh of is the birth of the modern church uh of is the birth of the modern church uh of the modern leadership sector. Don't even the modern leadership sector. Don't even the modern leadership sector. Don't even put the word church in front of it. The put the word church in front of it. The put the word church in front of it. The birth of the modern leadership sector is birth of the modern leadership sector is birth of the modern leadership sector is a 1990s thing. And if you now jump into a 1990s thing. And if you now jump into a 1990s thing. And if you now jump into the church, John Maxwell, the church, John Maxwell, the church, John Maxwell, his couple of books is the cataly. his couple of books is the cataly. his couple of books is the cataly. You've got Ken Blanchard, John Maxwell, You've got Ken Blanchard, John Maxwell, You've got Ken Blanchard, John Maxwell, and you got a several uh secular and you got a several uh secular and you got a several uh secular authors. You can see the lights going authors. You can see the lights going authors. You can see the lights going off on the leadership part of it in 90 off on the leadership part of it in 90 off on the leadership part of it in 90 to 95. And here's what happens, Carrie. to 95. And here's what happens, Carrie. to 95. And here's what happens, Carrie. Look at the convergence of things here. Look at the convergence of things here. Look at the convergence of things here. You've got You've got You've got um on one hand um on one hand um on one hand I'm going to call it the moving from I'm going to call it the moving from I'm going to call it the moving from church as a mission to church as an church as a mission to church as an church as a mission to church as an enterprise. It's a really important enterprise. It's a really important enterprise. It's a really important thing to get your hands around. up until thing to get your hands around. up until thing to get your hands around. up until 1985, 1985, 1985, 99 99 99 something, I don't know the exact something, I don't know the exact something, I don't know the exact decimal point, but it's 99 something of decimal point, but it's 99 something of decimal point, but it's 99 something of every church in the history of the every church in the history of the every church in the history of the United States United States United States has been a mission-based organization has been a mission-based organization has been a mission-based organization probably under 100 people.

probably under 100 people. probably under 100 people. Think of think what I'm thinking. A Think of think what I'm thinking. A Think of think what I'm thinking. A mission-based organization, it's there's mission-based organization, it's there's mission-based organization, it's there's a cause, there's one staff person, a cause, there's one staff person, a cause, there's one staff person, there's an elder board. It's linear. there's an elder board. It's linear. there's an elder board. It's linear. It's and we can fight over all the goods It's and we can fight over all the goods It's and we can fight over all the goods and bads about that, but it's a mission. and bads about that, but it's a mission. and bads about that, but it's a mission. One of the most fascinating things I One of the most fascinating things I One of the most fascinating things I read in this whole writing of this book read in this whole writing of this book read in this whole writing of this book is in Lyall Shaller, Bob Buford was is in Lyall Shaller, Bob Buford was is in Lyall Shaller, Bob Buford was wrestling with the growth of Leadership wrestling with the growth of Leadership wrestling with the growth of Leadership Network and Lyall wrote him a letter and Network and Lyall wrote him a letter and Network and Lyall wrote him a letter and said, "Bob, here's the deal. Um, uh, an said, "Bob, here's the deal. Um, uh, an said, "Bob, here's the deal. Um, uh, an organization with four staff is a organization with four staff is a organization with four staff is a mission causebased thing. An mission causebased thing. An mission causebased thing. An organization with 20 staff is an organization with 20 staff is an organization with 20 staff is an enterprise. enterprise. enterprise. When you get to five or more staff, When you get to five or more staff, When you get to five or more staff, there's no way around it. There's an there's no way around it. There's an there's no way around it. There's an enterprise dynamic that enters. enterprise dynamic that enters. enterprise dynamic that enters. And Carrie, you got to let that sink in. And Carrie, you got to let that sink in. And Carrie, you got to let that sink in. That coincides with why the birth of the That coincides with why the birth of the That coincides with why the birth of the leadership, the church leadership leadership, the church leadership leadership, the church leadership sector. You've got sector. You've got sector. You've got this large church phenomena starting to this large church phenomena starting to this large church phenomena starting to happen. What Ducker says is true.

happen. What Ducker says is true. happen. What Ducker says is true. Pastors aren't equipped to grow big Pastors aren't equipped to grow big Pastors aren't equipped to grow big things. They don't get the training to things. They don't get the training to things. They don't get the training to do it. Where are they going to turn for do it. Where are they going to turn for do it. Where are they going to turn for the training for running an enterprise? the training for running an enterprise? the training for running an enterprise? >> I would argue strongly that starting by >> I would argue strongly that starting by >> I would argue strongly that starting by 1995, 1995, 1995, church is an enterprise. It's an church is an enterprise. It's an church is an enterprise. It's an enterprise sector. And now we need to enterprise sector. And now we need to enterprise sector. And now we need to equip the enterprise sector with a new equip the enterprise sector with a new equip the enterprise sector with a new leadership sector. So look at the timing leadership sector. So look at the timing leadership sector. So look at the timing here. If you can go check this. Look at here. If you can go check this. Look at here. If you can go check this. Look at the timing prior. If if you go look at the timing prior. If if you go look at the timing prior. If if you go look at when the first college degrees, when the first college degrees, when the first college degrees, undergrad and graduate degrees in undergrad and graduate degrees in undergrad and graduate degrees in leadership were available. leadership were available. leadership were available. Not until after the 1970s. Not until after the 1970s. Not until after the 1970s. There's no degrees in college in There's no degrees in college in There's no degrees in college in leadership until after the 70s. Now look leadership until after the 70s. Now look leadership until after the 70s. Now look at look at this. Andy Stanley starts at look at this. Andy Stanley starts at look at this. Andy Stanley starts North Point around 95, but early um North Point around 95, but early um North Point around 95, but early um early 90s, the only major leadership early 90s, the only major leadership early 90s, the only major leadership conference I could find in this conference I could find in this conference I could find in this research, leadership network was running research, leadership network was running research, leadership network was running a thing called the church of the 21st a thing called the church of the 21st a thing called the church of the 21st century and invite only 400 pastors to a century and invite only 400 pastors to a century and invite only 400 pastors to a leadership thing. And guess who was leadership thing. And guess who was leadership thing. And guess who was running it for leadership network? Bill running it for leadership network? Bill running it for leadership network? Bill Hels and Willow Creek.

Hels and Willow Creek. Hels and Willow Creek. >> Interesting. Bill was the coordinator in >> Interesting. Bill was the coordinator in >> Interesting. Bill was the coordinator in the MC. Their band would do it. And as the MC. Their band would do it. And as the MC. Their band would do it. And as we're coming up on the mid 90s, Bob's we're coming up on the mid 90s, Bob's we're coming up on the mid 90s, Bob's Bob Bob said to Bill, "You just need to Bob Bob said to Bill, "You just need to Bob Bob said to Bill, "You just need to go run with this and do it." So, go run with this and do it." So, go run with this and do it." So, Leadership Network stops doing their Leadership Network stops doing their Leadership Network stops doing their church of the 21st century conference church of the 21st century conference church of the 21st century conference and the global leadership summit starts. and the global leadership summit starts. and the global leadership summit starts. >> Well, and you know, just to put this in >> Well, and you know, just to put this in >> Well, and you know, just to put this in context, I mean, I started at very small context, I mean, I started at very small context, I mean, I started at very small churches. So when you say 99 whatever churches. So when you say 99 whatever churches. So when you say 99 whatever percent of American churches in the percent of American churches in the percent of American churches in the history of America or Canada or you know history of America or Canada or you know history of America or Canada or you know fill in your country here were small fill in your country here were small fill in your country here were small under 100 people Todd you know this under 100 people Todd you know this under 100 people Todd you know this there's not a lot to manage I mean you there's not a lot to manage I mean you there's not a lot to manage I mean you have a small budget congregational have a small budget congregational have a small budget congregational dynamics you know everybody by name you dynamics you know everybody by name you dynamics you know everybody by name you have an annual meeting it wasn't that have an annual meeting it wasn't that have an annual meeting it wasn't that hard and then we started to grow and hard and then we started to grow and hard and then we started to grow and I'll tell you it got complicated and I'll tell you it got complicated and I'll tell you it got complicated and then we sold our buildings and then we then we sold our buildings and then we then we sold our buildings and then we became a portable church and then we became a portable church and then we became a portable church and then we built a brand new facility and we added built a brand new facility and we added built a brand new facility and we added one, two, three services and all of a one, two, three services and all of a one, two, three services and all of a sudden I am in over my head and I sudden I am in over my head and I sudden I am in over my head and I remember at that time going to Global remember at that time going to Global remember at that time going to Global Leadership Summit as a satellite site Leadership Summit as a satellite site Leadership Summit as a satellite site and occasionally he would make the and occasionally he would make the and occasionally he would make the pilgrimage to Chicago.

pilgrimage to Chicago. pilgrimage to Chicago. But you know, Bill having to explain But you know, Bill having to explain But you know, Bill having to explain what an executive pastor was cuz nobody what an executive pastor was cuz nobody what an executive pastor was cuz nobody knew. And it was basically a COO for the knew. And it was basically a COO for the knew. And it was basically a COO for the church because we had all been church because we had all been church because we had all been traditionally trained by seminaries. And traditionally trained by seminaries. And traditionally trained by seminaries. And how much training did we get in running how much training did we get in running how much training did we get in running a million-doll budget? zero. Running a million-doll budget? zero. Running a million-doll budget? zero. Running multiple staff, zero. Uh dealing with multiple staff, zero. Uh dealing with multiple staff, zero. Uh dealing with strategic planning, zero. I mean, there strategic planning, zero. I mean, there strategic planning, zero. I mean, there was no training because the model wasn't was no training because the model wasn't was no training because the model wasn't ready for what was happening on the ready for what was happening on the ready for what was happening on the ground. And you know, here I am. And ground. And you know, here I am. And ground. And you know, here I am. And when people ask me, well, what do you when people ask me, well, what do you when people ask me, well, what do you do, Carrie? It's like, well, I went to do, Carrie? It's like, well, I went to do, Carrie? It's like, well, I went to law school. They never taught me how to law school. They never taught me how to law school. They never taught me how to run a law firm and I went to seminary. run a law firm and I went to seminary. run a law firm and I went to seminary. They never taught me how to run a They never taught me how to run a They never taught me how to run a church. So, basically, I try to help church. So, basically, I try to help church. So, basically, I try to help leaders fill in the blanks and that's leaders fill in the blanks and that's leaders fill in the blanks and that's what I do. And you know, so for people what I do. And you know, so for people what I do. And you know, so for people to understand that and that was like to understand that and that was like to understand that and that was like literally a couple decades ago, we we literally a couple decades ago, we we literally a couple decades ago, we we were so hungry. were so hungry. were so hungry. >> The thing is, Carrie, it's like we this >> The thing is, Carrie, it's like we this >> The thing is, Carrie, it's like we this I keep using the word crosscurren. It's I keep using the word crosscurren. It's I keep using the word crosscurren. It's a crosscurrent. Like a crosscurrent. Like a crosscurrent. Like >> want big churches or not?

>> want big churches or not? >> want big churches or not? >> Like >> Like >> Like >> Yeah. What's your view on that? Do you >> Yeah. What's your view on that? Do you >> Yeah. What's your view on that? Do you want them or not? want them or not? want them or not? >> Well, I I want whatever God Yes, I want >> Well, I I want whatever God Yes, I want >> Well, I I want whatever God Yes, I want big churches, little churches, and big churches, little churches, and big churches, little churches, and everything in between. And the issue is, everything in between. And the issue is, everything in between. And the issue is, >> why would you not want to have a growing >> why would you not want to have a growing >> why would you not want to have a growing church if you could have it? Now, what I church if you could have it? Now, what I church if you could have it? Now, what I want more than a really big church is a want more than a really big church is a want more than a really big church is a reproducing church. But let's just say reproducing church. But let's just say reproducing church. But let's just say >> and more people coming into the kingdom. >> and more people coming into the kingdom. >> and more people coming into the kingdom. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> More people coming, whatever form that >> More people coming, whatever form that >> More people coming, whatever form that takes. But let's let's play this out. I takes. But let's let's play this out. I takes. But let's let's play this out. I if we're successful and we're growing if we're successful and we're growing if we're successful and we're growing some, if we say we're good with big some, if we say we're good with big some, if we say we're good with big churches, there is no way around it's a churches, there is no way around it's a churches, there is no way around it's a godded world. You're going to have godded world. You're going to have godded world. You're going to have enterprise dynamics. enterprise dynamics. enterprise dynamics. You're going to have enterprise dynamics You're going to have enterprise dynamics You're going to have enterprise dynamics with big organizations. And here's the with big organizations. And here's the with big organizations. And here's the consequence. Now, you're going to have a consequence. Now, you're going to have a consequence. Now, you're going to have a church CEO. church CEO. church CEO. I don't care if anybody likes me saying I don't care if anybody likes me saying I don't care if anybody likes me saying that or not. As soon as church is an that or not. As soon as church is an that or not. As soon as church is an enterprise, enterprise, enterprise, >> enterprises have things called CEOs. >> enterprises have things called CEOs. >> enterprises have things called CEOs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, who's the CEO? And as soon as you've >> So, who's the CEO? And as soon as you've >> So, who's the CEO? And as soon as you've got a CEO, the lead pastor, got a CEO, the lead pastor, got a CEO, the lead pastor, they're desperately going to want a COO, they're desperately going to want a COO, they're desperately going to want a COO, the executive pastor. You can look what the executive pastor. You can look what the executive pastor. You can look what was happening in the mid 90s here, was happening in the mid 90s here, was happening in the mid 90s here, Carrie. I came into full-time ministry Carrie. I came into full-time ministry Carrie. I came into full-time ministry at the end of the 90s as an executive at the end of the 90s as an executive at the end of the 90s as an executive pastor. You couldn't find a job pastor. You couldn't find a job pastor. You couldn't find a job description for an executive pastor.

description for an executive pastor. description for an executive pastor. Like, it's part of why I didn't want to Like, it's part of why I didn't want to Like, it's part of why I didn't want to go into ministry. I don't I don't want go into ministry. I don't I don't want go into ministry. I don't I don't want to be a lead pastor. I don't even know to be a lead pastor. I don't even know to be a lead pastor. I don't even know what an executive pastor is. Now, I can what an executive pastor is. Now, I can what an executive pastor is. Now, I can look back at it. Church was becoming an look back at it. Church was becoming an look back at it. Church was becoming an enterprise. There's a CEO. Look what's enterprise. There's a CEO. Look what's enterprise. There's a CEO. Look what's happening in governance. If you want to happening in governance. If you want to happening in governance. If you want to start understanding a bunch of the moral start understanding a bunch of the moral start understanding a bunch of the moral failures and other things going on, soon failures and other things going on, soon failures and other things going on, soon as you've got an enterprise, as you've got an enterprise, as you've got an enterprise, all of a sudden those four elders that all of a sudden those four elders that all of a sudden those four elders that get together three times a week to pray get together three times a week to pray get together three times a week to pray and oversee the one pastor in the and oversee the one pastor in the and oversee the one pastor in the church. Now, when it becomes an church. Now, when it becomes an church. Now, when it becomes an enterprise, we got to go to policy enterprise, we got to go to policy enterprise, we got to go to policy governance. Now all of a sudden that governance. Now all of a sudden that governance. Now all of a sudden that church CEO and COO, they need an church CEO and COO, they need an church CEO and COO, they need an executive team and they've got policy executive team and they've got policy executive team and they've got policy governance to be doing things beyond governance to be doing things beyond governance to be doing things beyond what the elders are really overseeing. what the elders are really overseeing. what the elders are really overseeing. So our authority structures are So our authority structures are So our authority structures are changing. Go find that. And and I changing. Go find that. And and I changing. Go find that. And and I realize it's a cultural thing realize it's a cultural thing realize it's a cultural thing biblically, but at the time the Bible biblically, but at the time the Bible biblically, but at the time the Bible was written, church and what Paul's was written, church and what Paul's was written, church and what Paul's writing to isn't an enterprise.

writing to isn't an enterprise. writing to isn't an enterprise. an enterprise in the sense of there's a an enterprise in the sense of there's a an enterprise in the sense of there's a CEO and we got to have governance CEO and we got to have governance CEO and we got to have governance structures that are decentralized and structures that are decentralized and structures that are decentralized and and now bring the innovations in things and now bring the innovations in things and now bring the innovations in things like multi-sight that further like multi-sight that further like multi-sight that further decentralize things decentralize things decentralize things >> and complicate >> and complicate >> and complicate >> and complicate. So what what we have to >> and complicate. So what what we have to >> and complicate. So what what we have to recognize is the shadow effect that recognize is the shadow effect that recognize is the shadow effect that happens from the definition of excess happens from the definition of excess happens from the definition of excess being bigger and bigger bigger and being bigger and bigger bigger and being bigger and bigger bigger and bigger brings consequences with it. And bigger brings consequences with it. And bigger brings consequences with it. And we c we can't on one hand say oh we we c we can't on one hand say oh we we c we can't on one hand say oh we can't have all these things the bad can't have all these things the bad can't have all these things the bad things happening and at the same time things happening and at the same time things happening and at the same time say but our definition of success that say but our definition of success that say but our definition of success that we want to aspire to is to be the top we want to aspire to is to be the top we want to aspire to is to be the top church on the top hundred biggest church on the top hundred biggest church on the top hundred biggest churches in America. Like it it because churches in America. Like it it because churches in America. Like it it because there's an enterprise piece there. there's an enterprise piece there. there's an enterprise piece there. Yeah, you know, you brought me back to Yeah, you know, you brought me back to Yeah, you know, you brought me back to something I have not thought about in something I have not thought about in something I have not thought about in years. And I saw a mental image of years. And I saw a mental image of years. And I saw a mental image of myself in the 90s on my I don't know 486 myself in the 90s on my I don't know 486 myself in the 90s on my I don't know 486 pennium computer pennium computer pennium computer with dialup internet writing out.

with dialup internet writing out. with dialup internet writing out. Speaking of moving from a little Speaking of moving from a little Speaking of moving from a little pastoral setting to an enterprise, we pastoral setting to an enterprise, we pastoral setting to an enterprise, we started to grow fairly quickly and you started to grow fairly quickly and you started to grow fairly quickly and you know it was a dozen people in a few know it was a dozen people in a few know it was a dozen people in a few dozen and suddenly we're into the low dozen and suddenly we're into the low dozen and suddenly we're into the low hundreds. And I still remember because I hundreds. And I still remember because I hundreds. And I still remember because I had no idea how to do this. Just going had no idea how to do this. Just going had no idea how to do this. Just going into a Word doc and setting up columns into a Word doc and setting up columns into a Word doc and setting up columns so that I had a record of who would so that I had a record of who would so that I had a record of who would come. Todd Wilson, address, phone come. Todd Wilson, address, phone come. Todd Wilson, address, phone number. I mean, that was me entering it number. I mean, that was me entering it number. I mean, that was me entering it into a word document and doing our into a word document and doing our into a word document and doing our disciplehip resources and doing our disciplehip resources and doing our disciplehip resources and doing our Bible studies and doing all that. And Bible studies and doing all that. And Bible studies and doing all that. And there's a certain point and obviously I there's a certain point and obviously I there's a certain point and obviously I didn't handle the finances. Never ever didn't handle the finances. Never ever didn't handle the finances. Never ever did that. We always had independent, you did that. We always had independent, you did that. We always had independent, you know, treasurers and then eventually a know, treasurers and then eventually a know, treasurers and then eventually a team, etc., etc., and auditors, but team, etc., etc., and auditors, but team, etc., etc., and auditors, but there's a system at which you just can't there's a system at which you just can't there's a system at which you just can't handle it. Like the complexity I always handle it. Like the complexity I always handle it. Like the complexity I always said, you know, if Kexus broke, I said, you know, if Kexus broke, I said, you know, if Kexus broke, I wouldn't know how to fix it. Um, same wouldn't know how to fix it. Um, same wouldn't know how to fix it. Um, same with this company now. It's gotten this with this company now. It's gotten this with this company now. It's gotten this was a hobby and now it's so complex. I was a hobby and now it's so complex. I was a hobby and now it's so complex. I have a small but mighty team. Like I have a small but mighty team. Like I have a small but mighty team. Like I basically do this. I I don't know how it basically do this. I I don't know how it basically do this. I I don't know how it all works. like I I don't know, you all works. like I I don't know, you all works. like I I don't know, you know, and I think a lot of church know, and I think a lot of church know, and I think a lot of church leaders find themselves in a situation leaders find themselves in a situation leaders find themselves in a situation like that where you've got to have like that where you've got to have like that where you've got to have people to manage it or else, as Carl people to manage it or else, as Carl people to manage it or else, as Carl George and Warren Bird said, um it just George and Warren Bird said, um it just George and Warren Bird said, um it just shrinks back to 100 people and then you shrinks back to 100 people and then you shrinks back to 100 people and then you can manage it on your little word can manage it on your little word can manage it on your little word template and away you go and hopefully template and away you go and hopefully template and away you go and hopefully you can issue all the tax receipts you can issue all the tax receipts you can issue all the tax receipts properly. But properly. But properly. But >> I think it's a conversation for another >> I think it's a conversation for another >> I think it's a conversation for another day for you and maybe somebody who's an day for you and maybe somebody who's an day for you and maybe somebody who's an expert in it. But you just used the word expert in it. But you just used the word expert in it. But you just used the word management about six times in that last management about six times in that last management about six times in that last couple of sentences. And it's and and

couple of sentences. And it's and and couple of sentences. And it's and and we're back to where's leadership like we're back to where's leadership like we're back to where's leadership like the complexity you're talking about. the complexity you're talking about. the complexity you're talking about. >> Well, my leadership was getting out of >> Well, my leadership was getting out of >> Well, my leadership was getting out of management. It was like I'm not a good management. It was like I'm not a good management. It was like I'm not a good manager. I can I can I can find leaders, manager. I can I can I can find leaders, manager. I can I can I can find leaders, Todd, but I'm not a good manager. Todd, but I'm not a good manager. Todd, but I'm not a good manager. >> Yeah. But that that enterprise that's >> Yeah. But that that enterprise that's >> Yeah. But that that enterprise that's formed and this integration between the formed and this integration between the formed and this integration between the management role and the leadership role management role and the leadership role management role and the leadership role it it's that's what gets really learnery it it's that's what gets really learnery it it's that's what gets really learnery I think in the middle I think in the middle I think in the middle >> and I think you know the moral failure >> and I think you know the moral failure >> and I think you know the moral failure and we said we weren't going to talk and we said we weren't going to talk and we said we weren't going to talk about it but I mean there are serious about it but I mean there are serious about it but I mean there are serious problems and there are small church problems and there are small church problems and there are small church pastors who have affairs there are small pastors who have affairs there are small pastors who have affairs there are small church pastors who are corrupt and it church pastors who are corrupt and it church pastors who are corrupt and it just doesn't make the headlines you know just doesn't make the headlines you know just doesn't make the headlines you know for the most part and but I think the for the most part and but I think the for the most part and but I think the system system system >> I want to write a book on this like >> I want to write a book on this like >> I want to write a book on this like where is the moral line? where is the moral line? where is the moral line? What you know all of us struggle in What you know all of us struggle in What you know all of us struggle in leadership all of us struggle in leadership all of us struggle in leadership all of us struggle in leadership with one thing or another but leadership with one thing or another but leadership with one thing or another but I think one of the reasons I mean some I think one of the reasons I mean some I think one of the reasons I mean some people are probably diabolical and people are probably diabolical and people are probably diabolical and they're just out to ruin the church and they're just out to ruin the church and they're just out to ruin the church and ruin people's lives. I don't think most ruin people's lives. I don't think most ruin people's lives. I don't think most people, as you said, start out that way.

people, as you said, start out that way. people, as you said, start out that way. But I think sometimes the system becomes But I think sometimes the system becomes But I think sometimes the system becomes so big and everybody I talk to who leads so big and everybody I talk to who leads so big and everybody I talk to who leads a mega church, you know, unless they a mega church, you know, unless they a mega church, you know, unless they inherited it, if they started it, it's inherited it, if they started it, it's inherited it, if they started it, it's like, did you ever think it would be like, did you ever think it would be like, did you ever think it would be this big? And the answer is no. I had no this big? And the answer is no. I had no this big? And the answer is no. I had no idea. I They're They're gasping for air. idea. I They're They're gasping for air. idea. I They're They're gasping for air. They're trying to figure it out. We got They're trying to figure it out. We got They're trying to figure it out. We got church planters who planted last year church planters who planted last year church planters who planted last year who were like, "My goodness, we're at who were like, "My goodness, we're at who were like, "My goodness, we're at 400 people. I thought we'd be at 40. 400 people. I thought we'd be at 40. 400 people. I thought we'd be at 40. What do we do? What if you're at 1,400 What do we do? What if you're at 1,400 What do we do? What if you're at 1,400 in a year?" And I think that that in a year?" And I think that that in a year?" And I think that that system, you know, and I think God uses system, you know, and I think God uses system, you know, and I think God uses it. Like he uses it. I'm not all for it. Like he uses it. I'm not all for it. Like he uses it. I'm not all for everybody just gather in your house. everybody just gather in your house. everybody just gather in your house. And, you know, I I think we're in And, you know, I I think we're in And, you know, I I think we're in another era now. Um, and I want to get another era now. Um, and I want to get another era now. Um, and I want to get behind pastors, but I think sometimes it behind pastors, but I think sometimes it behind pastors, but I think sometimes it just gets so overwhelming just gets so overwhelming just gets so overwhelming that they they kind of lose touch with that they they kind of lose touch with that they they kind of lose touch with their soul. They lose touch with God. their soul. They lose touch with God. their soul. They lose touch with God. Maybe they lose touch with their Maybe they lose touch with their Maybe they lose touch with their character. Their character doesn't grow character. Their character doesn't grow character. Their character doesn't grow at the pace of their uh platform. and at the pace of their uh platform. and at the pace of their uh platform. and and you know, you end up in the ditch. I and you know, you end up in the ditch. I and you know, you end up in the ditch. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on don't know. Do you have any thoughts on don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that? that? that? >> Yeah, I I mean, I want to be real clear, >> Yeah, I I mean, I want to be real clear, >> Yeah, I I mean, I want to be real clear, too. I'm definitely in the work on this too. I'm definitely in the work on this too. I'm definitely in the work on this book and everything I've done on it for book and everything I've done on it for book and everything I've done on it for two years, Carrie, I'm not trying to two years, Carrie, I'm not trying to two years, Carrie, I'm not trying to attribute what we're talking about to attribute what we're talking about to attribute what we're talking about to why moral failures are happening.

why moral failures are happening. why moral failures are happening. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Yeah. I what I do think is a fair thing >> Yeah. I what I do think is a fair thing >> Yeah. I what I do think is a fair thing to look at is to look at is to look at is the bigger and more complex something the bigger and more complex something the bigger and more complex something gets and the more decentralized it gets gets and the more decentralized it gets gets and the more decentralized it gets so that the lead now I'm going to say so that the lead now I'm going to say so that the lead now I'm going to say the CEO has more and more responsibility the CEO has more and more responsibility the CEO has more and more responsibility that's decentralized that's decentralized that's decentralized so more and more of what they do is out so more and more of what they do is out so more and more of what they do is out of sight out of mind in that more of sight out of mind in that more of sight out of mind in that more complex thing for me the issue comes complex thing for me the issue comes complex thing for me the issue comes back to I'm going to use the word back to I'm going to use the word back to I'm going to use the word authority and accountability authority and accountability authority and accountability How are we putting authority and How are we putting authority and How are we putting authority and accountability structures in place in a accountability structures in place in a accountability structures in place in a context that we know is radically more context that we know is radically more context that we know is radically more complex and and decentralized than what complex and and decentralized than what complex and and decentralized than what things used to be and that I I don't things used to be and that I I don't things used to be and that I I don't think that's a thing we have to say oh think that's a thing we have to say oh think that's a thing we have to say oh because of that we shouldn't do large because of that we shouldn't do large because of that we shouldn't do large things or whatever. I think things or whatever. I think things or whatever. I think >> at the same time though we should say it >> at the same time though we should say it >> at the same time though we should say it is a reality that there's a difference is a reality that there's a difference is a reality that there's a difference between one lead pastor in a church of between one lead pastor in a church of between one lead pastor in a church of 100 who meets with the elders multiple 100 who meets with the elders multiple 100 who meets with the elders multiple times and is in small groups with them times and is in small groups with them times and is in small groups with them and doing it and virtually everything and doing it and virtually everything and doing it and virtually everything that pastor is doing from a work that pastor is doing from a work that pastor is doing from a work standpoint is visible standpoint is visible standpoint is visible >> um to one you know a church CEO of 15 >> um to one you know a church CEO of 15 >> um to one you know a church CEO of 15 campuses and multiple things and you campuses and multiple things and you campuses and multiple things and you know you know how complex that is and know you know how complex that is and know you know how complex that is and things are out of sight out of mind so things are out of sight out of mind so things are out of sight out of mind so >> yeah and I I think part of it too, and >> yeah and I I think part of it too, and >> yeah and I I think part of it too, and this is, you know, one of the things I'm this is, you know, one of the things I'm this is, you know, one of the things I'm committed to both in my life and also in committed to both in my life and also in committed to both in my life and also in in what we do on this podcast and in all in what we do on this podcast and in all in what we do on this podcast and in all the things I do, is, you know, how do the things I do, is, you know, how do the things I do, is, you know, how do you make sure you grow your character

you make sure you grow your character you make sure you grow your character as hard as you, you know, work on your as hard as you, you know, work on your as hard as you, you know, work on your character as hard as you work on your character as hard as you work on your character as hard as you work on your competency? Maybe twice as hard as you competency? Maybe twice as hard as you competency? Maybe twice as hard as you work on your competency because, you work on your competency because, you work on your competency because, you know, a lot of us leading and we got know, a lot of us leading and we got know, a lot of us leading and we got corporate leaders, too. You just find corporate leaders, too. You just find corporate leaders, too. You just find yourselves in positions you never yourselves in positions you never yourselves in positions you never thought you'd find yourself in in terms thought you'd find yourself in in terms thought you'd find yourself in in terms of responsibility. And if you don't of responsibility. And if you don't of responsibility. And if you don't guard that character well, like I I guard that character well, like I I guard that character well, like I I could have been roadkill 172 times along could have been roadkill 172 times along could have been roadkill 172 times along the way, Todd. Like it would not have the way, Todd. Like it would not have the way, Todd. Like it would not have taken a lot. And by the grace of God, taken a lot. And by the grace of God, taken a lot. And by the grace of God, I'm still here and we're going away and I'm still here and we're going away and I'm still here and we're going away and been married for 35 years and you know, been married for 35 years and you know, been married for 35 years and you know, very thankful for that. But like I I get very thankful for that. But like I I get very thankful for that. But like I I get it and and I think you're right. I don't it and and I think you're right. I don't it and and I think you're right. I don't think the answer is, well, no church can think the answer is, well, no church can think the answer is, well, no church can grow beyond 50 people or you know, what grow beyond 50 people or you know, what grow beyond 50 people or you know, what would you say because I'm just imagining would you say because I'm just imagining would you say because I'm just imagining the comments right now. comments are so the comments right now. comments are so the comments right now. comments are so fun in the of social media. But like for fun in the of social media. But like for fun in the of social media. But like for people who would say, "And this is why people who would say, "And this is why people who would say, "And this is why pastors can't be CEOs. They have to be pastors can't be CEOs. They have to be pastors can't be CEOs. They have to be shepherds." shepherds." shepherds." What's your thought on that? What's your thought on that? What's your thought on that? >> Um I uh I uh I'm not sure, Carrie. Like I Is it good I'm not sure, Carrie. Like I Is it good I'm not sure, Carrie. Like I Is it good to have P shepherds? Yes. Is it good to to have P shepherds? Yes. Is it good to to have P shepherds? Yes. Is it good to have apostolic evangelists? Yes. Like have apostolic evangelists? Yes. Like have apostolic evangelists? Yes. Like yes, if if yes, if if yes, if if >> if you take CEO out and it's an >> if you take CEO out and it's an >> if you take CEO out and it's an apostolic evangelist, apostolic evangelist, apostolic evangelist, >> that's what's loaded in the question is >> that's what's loaded in the question is >> that's what's loaded in the question is using in it.

using in it. using in it. >> If we don't use the word co for a second >> If we don't use the word co for a second >> If we don't use the word co for a second and now let me just talk about Ephesians and now let me just talk about Ephesians and now let me just talk about Ephesians 4. You know, God calls some to be 4. You know, God calls some to be 4. You know, God calls some to be apostles and some evangelists and some apostles and some evangelists and some apostles and some evangelists and some shepherds and some teachers. And I mean, shepherds and some teachers. And I mean, shepherds and some teachers. And I mean, do we need people like the apostle Paul do we need people like the apostle Paul do we need people like the apostle Paul who was an evangelist apostle? I mean, who was an evangelist apostle? I mean, who was an evangelist apostle? I mean, somebody who's taking new ground. somebody who's taking new ground. somebody who's taking new ground. >> I'm not sure we'd be talking right now >> I'm not sure we'd be talking right now >> I'm not sure we'd be talking right now if the Apostle Paul isn't taking new if the Apostle Paul isn't taking new if the Apostle Paul isn't taking new ground. So, ground. So, ground. So, >> if it was up to Peter, it might be a >> if it was up to Peter, it might be a >> if it was up to Peter, it might be a very small movement that had petered very small movement that had petered very small movement that had petered out, but I think God knocked Paul off out, but I think God knocked Paul off out, but I think God knocked Paul off his horse for a reason, his horse for a reason, his horse for a reason, >> right? So I I for me it's a little bit >> right? So I I for me it's a little bit >> right? So I I for me it's a little bit easier to think about easier to think about easier to think about instead of saying should we or shouldn't instead of saying should we or shouldn't instead of saying should we or shouldn't we it's if we are going to have God we it's if we are going to have God we it's if we are going to have God blessing big and complex things what do blessing big and complex things what do blessing big and complex things what do we need to do to adjust to provide that we need to do to adjust to provide that we need to do to adjust to provide that accountability and the and the things accountability and the and the things accountability and the and the things over it. Um because at the end of the over it. Um because at the end of the over it. Um because at the end of the day we're losing ground on lostness and day we're losing ground on lostness and day we're losing ground on lostness and it's like we better figure out how to it's like we better figure out how to it's like we better figure out how to you know it isn't like we need to cancel you know it isn't like we need to cancel you know it isn't like we need to cancel one thing so we can do more something one thing so we can do more something one thing so we can do more something else but I do think we've got to uh you else but I do think we've got to uh you else but I do think we've got to uh you know figure out how to manage what know figure out how to manage what know figure out how to manage what you're talking you're talking you're talking >> well and then otherwise what do we do?

>> well and then otherwise what do we do? >> well and then otherwise what do we do? We're just terrible stewards of the We're just terrible stewards of the We're just terrible stewards of the people that God brought us. If he keeps people that God brought us. If he keeps people that God brought us. If he keeps bringing more and we let our bringing more and we let our bringing more and we let our organization fall apart and we don't organization fall apart and we don't organization fall apart and we don't grow in leadership or management and we grow in leadership or management and we grow in leadership or management and we just kind whatever like I don't think just kind whatever like I don't think just kind whatever like I don't think that's the answer either. Anyway, good that's the answer either. Anyway, good that's the answer either. Anyway, good digression. Okay, digression. Okay, digression. Okay, >> churches start doing leadership >> churches start doing leadership >> churches start doing leadership conferences, but then let's talk about conferences, but then let's talk about conferences, but then let's talk about the height of the seeker sensitive the height of the seeker sensitive the height of the seeker sensitive movement. I think we covered it. There movement. I think we covered it. There movement. I think we covered it. There might be a few more things might be a few more things might be a few more things >> and then that kind of morphs into a >> and then that kind of morphs into a >> and then that kind of morphs into a tractional church, doesn't it? And at tractional church, doesn't it? And at tractional church, doesn't it? And at the same time there's emerging and the same time there's emerging and the same time there's emerging and missional. It's all stirring in a pot. missional. It's all stirring in a pot. missional. It's all stirring in a pot. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Around the turn of the millennium. >> Around the turn of the millennium. >> Around the turn of the millennium. >> That's why the 95 to 2005 window is I I >> That's why the 95 to 2005 window is I I >> That's why the 95 to 2005 window is I I would say by 95 the attractional piece would say by 95 the attractional piece would say by 95 the attractional piece of it is well solidified with the of it is well solidified with the of it is well solidified with the purpose driven piece with purpose driven piece with purpose driven piece with >> we weren't calling it attractional then. >> we weren't calling it attractional then. >> we weren't calling it attractional then. It was called seeker sensitive but it It was called seeker sensitive but it It was called seeker sensitive but it was basically the genesis was there was basically the genesis was there was basically the genesis was there >> and and in some ways where that came >> and and in some ways where that came >> and and in some ways where that came from was when the missional conversation from was when the missional conversation from was when the missional conversation started to come in strong. started to come in strong. started to come in strong. >> It's a pitting of the two. it's >> It's a pitting of the two. it's >> It's a pitting of the two. it's missional or attractional. It's it's as missional or attractional. It's it's as missional or attractional. It's it's as if you got to be one or the other. You if you got to be one or the other. You if you got to be one or the other. You can be missional or you can be can be missional or you can be can be missional or you can be attractional as opposed to and in fact attractional as opposed to and in fact attractional as opposed to and in fact in the early days of exponential back in in the early days of exponential back in in the early days of exponential back in the in the early 2000s uh we actually the in the early 2000s uh we actually the in the early 2000s uh we actually commissioned Hugh Halter and Matt Smay commissioned Hugh Halter and Matt Smay commissioned Hugh Halter and Matt Smay to do a book on missional and to do a book on missional and to do a book on missional and attractional that we need to be able attractional that we need to be able attractional that we need to be able >> it's not because it's always been a >> it's not because it's always been a >> it's not because it's always been a rivalry but you were trying to get them rivalry but you were trying to get them rivalry but you were trying to get them to I had I just got to put this in there to I had I just got to put this in there to I had I just got to put this in there as a as a bookmark to myself. I had a as a as a bookmark to myself. I had a as a as a bookmark to myself. I had a fascinating conversation with Mark Sers fascinating conversation with Mark Sers fascinating conversation with Mark Sers over lunch because missional kind of

over lunch because missional kind of over lunch because missional kind of started in Australia totally off the started in Australia totally off the started in Australia totally off the record. He's willing to come on the record. He's willing to come on the record. He's willing to come on the record sometime, but he's got a very record sometime, but he's got a very record sometime, but he's got a very interesting take on why missional church interesting take on why missional church interesting take on why missional church never really took off. So Mark, if never really took off. So Mark, if never really took off. So Mark, if you're listening, we got to have that you're listening, we got to have that you're listening, we got to have that conversation. But anyway, yeah. So, so conversation. But anyway, yeah. So, so conversation. But anyway, yeah. So, so there's missional emerging attractional there's missional emerging attractional there's missional emerging attractional and then secret sensitive sort of and then secret sensitive sort of and then secret sensitive sort of becoming attractional. And what what's becoming attractional. And what what's becoming attractional. And what what's going on in that that cauldron of that going on in that that cauldron of that going on in that that cauldron of that decade? decade? decade? >> Yeah. So I I'll start with this just >> Yeah. So I I'll start with this just >> Yeah. So I I'll start with this just with the end point on it. I I had come with the end point on it. I I had come with the end point on it. I I had come into ministry when the missional into ministry when the missional into ministry when the missional conversations were starting to rise conversations were starting to rise conversations were starting to rise >> which is what around 2000 >> which is what around 2000 >> which is what around 2000 >> 2000 and I'm going to put us into that >> 2000 and I'm going to put us into that >> 2000 and I'm going to put us into that here in a second but I was at uh almost here in a second but I was at uh almost here in a second but I was at uh almost megaurch at the time where we're focused megaurch at the time where we're focused megaurch at the time where we're focused on all of the things we're talking on all of the things we're talking on all of the things we're talking about. We were planted purpose driven. about. We were planted purpose driven. about. We were planted purpose driven. We're seeker sensitive. We were just We're seeker sensitive. We were just We're seeker sensitive. We were just doing our first multi-sight in 2000, doing our first multi-sight in 2000, doing our first multi-sight in 2000, which we'll get to that part of it. I which we'll get to that part of it. I which we'll get to that part of it. I mean, we're doing all the fill-in- mean, we're doing all the fill-in- mean, we're doing all the fill-in- thelank seeker, sensitive, attractional, thelank seeker, sensitive, attractional, thelank seeker, sensitive, attractional, whatever. And now these missional whatever. And now these missional whatever. And now these missional conversations are rising.

conversations are rising. conversations are rising. >> And I would tell you at the time, >> And I would tell you at the time, >> And I would tell you at the time, if you're riding down the road on your if you're riding down the road on your if you're riding down the road on your bike and this little yappy snower comes bike and this little yappy snower comes bike and this little yappy snower comes chasing after you, biting at your chasing after you, biting at your chasing after you, biting at your ankles, ankles, ankles, that's literally how I described it in that's literally how I described it in that's literally how I described it in 2000. It's like I just want to get off 2000. It's like I just want to get off 2000. It's like I just want to get off the bike and dropkick these guys. Like the bike and dropkick these guys. Like the bike and dropkick these guys. Like it's I mean that's how I was feeling in it's I mean that's how I was feeling in it's I mean that's how I was feeling in 2000. Like come on guys, we got work to 2000. Like come on guys, we got work to 2000. Like come on guys, we got work to do. There's lost people. Let's get on do. There's lost people. Let's get on do. There's lost people. Let's get on with it. And with it. And with it. And >> I I might have felt the same way. Just >> I I might have felt the same way. Just >> I I might have felt the same way. Just so you know. Yeah. so you know. Yeah. so you know. Yeah. >> Here's the thing. In my in my >> Here's the thing. In my in my >> Here's the thing. In my in my reflections writing this book, I went reflections writing this book, I went reflections writing this book, I went back and reviewed over 20 missional back and reviewed over 20 missional back and reviewed over 20 missional books written back in that time period. books written back in that time period. books written back in that time period. If many of those were being written If many of those were being written If many of those were being written today, they'd be bestsellers. In fact, today, they'd be bestsellers. In fact, today, they'd be bestsellers. In fact, I'd like I'd like I'd like >> 20 years ahead. >> 20 years ahead. >> 20 years ahead. >> They were I'd like to go do a retro >> They were I'd like to go do a retro >> They were I'd like to go do a retro thing right now. In fact, if I were a thing right now. In fact, if I were a thing right now. In fact, if I were a book publisher, I'd try to do a retro book publisher, I'd try to do a retro book publisher, I'd try to do a retro where I'd go take 10 or 15 of the books where I'd go take 10 or 15 of the books where I'd go take 10 or 15 of the books from the rough 95 to 2005 window. Neil from the rough 95 to 2005 window. Neil from the rough 95 to 2005 window. Neil Cole has some really good stuff written Cole has some really good stuff written Cole has some really good stuff written back then that just needs to get gasport back then that just needs to get gasport back then that just needs to get gasport on it again. So, here's what I would on it again. So, here's what I would on it again. So, here's what I would tell you in the middle of this, Carrie.

tell you in the middle of this, Carrie. tell you in the middle of this, Carrie. 95 to 2005, which was a lot to talk 95 to 2005, which was a lot to talk 95 to 2005, which was a lot to talk about. I if if there was a dirty little about. I if if there was a dirty little about. I if if there was a dirty little secret book I could publish stuff like secret book I could publish stuff like secret book I could publish stuff like from this book of all my research stuff, from this book of all my research stuff, from this book of all my research stuff, the most unpublished parts of my book the most unpublished parts of my book the most unpublished parts of my book that I can't publish come from this time that I can't publish come from this time that I can't publish come from this time period. period. period. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. and and it's be it's partly the it's I'm and and it's be it's partly the it's I'm and and it's be it's partly the it's I'm going to say it's the combination of the going to say it's the combination of the going to say it's the combination of the missional attractional which we'll get missional attractional which we'll get missional attractional which we'll get into here but it's also where the into here but it's also where the into here but it's also where the progressive versus progressive versus progressive versus you know traditional theological you know traditional theological you know traditional theological conversations are starting to conversations are starting to conversations are starting to >> so the whole progressive versus the >> so the whole progressive versus the >> so the whole progressive versus the conservatives conservatives conservatives >> starting to hit in that time period >> starting to hit in that time period >> starting to hit in that time period >> because emerging church became >> because emerging church became >> because emerging church became progressive pretty quickly progressive pretty quickly progressive pretty quickly >> and that's what's coming out of this 95 >> and that's what's coming out of this 95 >> and that's what's coming out of this 95 to 2005. So if we look coming into 95, to 2005. So if we look coming into 95, to 2005. So if we look coming into 95, Carrie, and we'll get back to history Carrie, and we'll get back to history Carrie, and we'll get back to history right now. So Leadership Network is right now. So Leadership Network is right now. So Leadership Network is serving large churches, which that's serving large churches, which that's serving large churches, which that's taking off. I mean, they're the curve is taking off. I mean, they're the curve is taking off. I mean, they're the curve is up and to the right. And according to up and to the right. And according to up and to the right. And according to Brad Smith, their CEO at the time, did Brad Smith, their CEO at the time, did Brad Smith, their CEO at the time, did an interview with them. Um the number an interview with them. Um the number an interview with them. Um the number one thing that they were getting one thing that they were getting one thing that they were getting feedback from the the large churches was feedback from the the large churches was feedback from the the large churches was a concern over how are we going to get a concern over how are we going to get a concern over how are we going to get Gen X leadership in place like how are Gen X leadership in place like how are Gen X leadership in place like how are we going to mobilize Gen X leaders like we going to mobilize Gen X leaders like we going to mobilize Gen X leaders like you? How are we going to you know get you? How are we going to you know get you? How are we going to you know get the Gen X the Gen X the Gen X >> leaders on >> leaders on >> leaders on >> into place? And and so they decided to

>> into place? And and so they decided to >> into place? And and so they decided to convene what they called the Young convene what they called the Young convene what they called the Young Leaders Network. And just like what Leaders Network. And just like what Leaders Network. And just like what leadership network does, they formed a leadership network does, they formed a leadership network does, they formed a cohort. There was 15 to 20 leaders, cohort. There was 15 to 20 leaders, cohort. There was 15 to 20 leaders, probably 10 to 12 really core leaders in probably 10 to 12 really core leaders in probably 10 to 12 really core leaders in this young leaders network. So here's this young leaders network. So here's this young leaders network. So here's the group Carrie, you want to be a fly the group Carrie, you want to be a fly the group Carrie, you want to be a fly on the wall. Okay. So in this 95 to 20 on the wall. Okay. So in this 95 to 20 on the wall. Okay. So in this 95 to 20 thou to roughly 2000 group of young thou to roughly 2000 group of young thou to roughly 2000 group of young leaders is Mark Driscoll leaders is Mark Driscoll leaders is Mark Driscoll before he plants his church. before he plants his church. before he plants his church. Is Chris C as he's planting his church? Is Chris C as he's planting his church? Is Chris C as he's planting his church? Is Dan Kimble before he plants his Is Dan Kimble before he plants his Is Dan Kimble before he plants his church? Is Andrew Jones an international church? Is Andrew Jones an international church? Is Andrew Jones an international missionary who's really doing some cool missionary who's really doing some cool missionary who's really doing some cool stuff? Tony Jones, Doug Padet, Brian stuff? Tony Jones, Doug Padet, Brian stuff? Tony Jones, Doug Padet, Brian McLaren. I mean, when you look McLaren. I mean, when you look McLaren. I mean, when you look >> that's an interesting group in a group >> that's an interesting group in a group >> that's an interesting group in a group with Brian McLaren and with Brian McLaren and with Brian McLaren and >> Mark Driscoll. And so I interviewed as >> Mark Driscoll. And so I interviewed as >> Mark Driscoll. And so I interviewed as many of those folks as I could interview many of those folks as I could interview many of those folks as I could interview that that it's fascinating what was that that it's fascinating what was that that it's fascinating what was going on. Leadership Network convened going on. Leadership Network convened going on. Leadership Network convened them in 95. All most all of them except them in 95. All most all of them except them in 95. All most all of them except McLaren were Gen X and and every one of McLaren were Gen X and and every one of McLaren were Gen X and and every one of them I interviewed confirmed that the them I interviewed confirmed that the them I interviewed confirmed that the reason they were coming together is they reason they were coming together is they reason they were coming together is they wanted to be missional. They wanted to wanted to be missional. They wanted to wanted to be missional. They wanted to figure out and Leslie Nubigan was who figure out and Leslie Nubigan was who figure out and Leslie Nubigan was who they were looking at primarily.

they were looking at primarily. they were looking at primarily. >> Man, I did not know that until around >> Man, I did not know that until around >> Man, I did not know that until around Leslie Nuban and looking at what he was Leslie Nuban and looking at what he was Leslie Nuban and looking at what he was doing and what would it look like to doing and what would it look like to doing and what would it look like to plant missional churches in a postmodern plant missional churches in a postmodern plant missional churches in a postmodern era. era. era. >> So 95 to 2000 there's it it's really >> So 95 to 2000 there's it it's really >> So 95 to 2000 there's it it's really fascinating a series of Gen X fascinating a series of Gen X fascinating a series of Gen X gatherings. There's a famous one in gatherings. There's a famous one in gatherings. There's a famous one in Santa Fe and another one. It's the one Santa Fe and another one. It's the one Santa Fe and another one. It's the one with the cursing Mark Driscoll stories with the cursing Mark Driscoll stories with the cursing Mark Driscoll stories that you hear and and um out of that you that you hear and and um out of that you that you hear and and um out of that you end up with there's such a diversity of end up with there's such a diversity of end up with there's such a diversity of people that the guys like Kimble and people that the guys like Kimble and people that the guys like Kimble and Driscoll and Chrissy they go off and Driscoll and Chrissy they go off and Driscoll and Chrissy they go off and play at churches and they're very play at churches and they're very play at churches and they're very focused on their pling churches. They're focused on their pling churches. They're focused on their pling churches. They're now the kids are coming along. They're now the kids are coming along. They're now the kids are coming along. They're busy with the kids. So the young leaders busy with the kids. So the young leaders busy with the kids. So the young leaders network starts to disengage. you know, network starts to disengage. you know, network starts to disengage. you know, they're they're starting to associate they're they're starting to associate they're they're starting to associate and out of that the progressive side, and out of that the progressive side, and out of that the progressive side, Doug Padet, Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, Doug Padet, Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, Doug Padet, Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, they formed what would be emergent they formed what would be emergent they formed what would be emergent village or the emergent conversation.

village or the emergent conversation. village or the emergent conversation. Now, what's fascinating when you go look Now, what's fascinating when you go look Now, what's fascinating when you go look at it, the words emerging church, at it, the words emerging church, at it, the words emerging church, emergent, emerging village, it depending emergent, emerging village, it depending emergent, emerging village, it depending on what side of the spectrum you're on, on what side of the spectrum you're on, on what side of the spectrum you're on, the words are loaded words. So there's the words are loaded words. So there's the words are loaded words. So there's an entire, you know, I mean, I literally an entire, you know, I mean, I literally an entire, you know, I mean, I literally heard stories of people needing to heard stories of people needing to heard stories of people needing to change names of things they were doing change names of things they were doing change names of things they were doing because they were worried about how the because they were worried about how the because they were worried about how the impact in society was with the names. impact in society was with the names. impact in society was with the names. Um, but that the progressive side of Um, but that the progressive side of Um, but that the progressive side of that really came out planting the seeds. that really came out planting the seeds. that really came out planting the seeds. I think you'd see the threads of the I think you'd see the threads of the I think you'd see the threads of the progressive side showing up in a lot of progressive side showing up in a lot of progressive side showing up in a lot of what's happened in the subsequent time what's happened in the subsequent time what's happened in the subsequent time periods from deconstruction of faith to periods from deconstruction of faith to periods from deconstruction of faith to other things that are going on. other things that are going on. other things that are going on. >> Yeah. Because the emergent movement kind >> Yeah. Because the emergent movement kind >> Yeah. Because the emergent movement kind of could you and progressivism that can of could you and progressivism that can of could you and progressivism that can be tied to deconversion, deconstruction, be tied to deconversion, deconstruction, be tied to deconversion, deconstruction, all of that. Is that a fair lineage or all of that. Is that a fair lineage or all of that. Is that a fair lineage or not? Really? not? Really? not? Really? >> It's a fair lineage. And the the reason >> It's a fair lineage. And the the reason >> It's a fair lineage. And the the reason I like to use the crosscurrent word in I like to use the crosscurrent word in I like to use the crosscurrent word in all these is it's all these is it's all these is it's >> I didn't find much in that 95 to 2015 >> I didn't find much in that 95 to 2015 >> I didn't find much in that 95 to 2015 window that's just black and white cause window that's just black and white cause window that's just black and white cause and effect switch and there's so much and effect switch and there's so much and effect switch and there's so much interplay between the different things interplay between the different things interplay between the different things that are going on that it's hard to that are going on that it's hard to that are going on that it's hard to single them out. It was confusing at the single them out. It was confusing at the single them out. It was confusing at the time. I mean I was coming up I was time. I mean I was coming up I was time. I mean I was coming up I was really starting to think about really starting to think about really starting to think about leadership. I was looking to other leadership. I was looking to other leadership. I was looking to other sources for information and and I'll sources for information and and I'll sources for information and and I'll test this theory on you. I don't think test this theory on you. I don't think test this theory on you. I don't think I've ever said this on this podcast, I've ever said this on this podcast, I've ever said this on this podcast, almost 800 episodes in, but my take on almost 800 episodes in, but my take on almost 800 episodes in, but my take on the emergent church is it never really

the emergent church is it never really the emergent church is it never really emerged because it led to deconstruction emerged because it led to deconstruction emerged because it led to deconstruction and it never became a thing. It was a a and it never became a thing. It was a a and it never became a thing. It was a a big flash in the pan and then kind of big flash in the pan and then kind of big flash in the pan and then kind of dispersed. And and then missional dispersed. And and then missional dispersed. And and then missional church, missional church went from a church, missional church went from a church, missional church went from a noun, we're missional, to an adjective. noun, we're missional, to an adjective. noun, we're missional, to an adjective. We're a missional church that's, you We're a missional church that's, you We're a missional church that's, you know, also attractional. And and so you know, also attractional. And and so you know, also attractional. And and so you know I I don't know whether that's fair know I I don't know whether that's fair know I I don't know whether that's fair or not. or not. or not. >> Well, you definitely Carrie have I what >> Well, you definitely Carrie have I what >> Well, you definitely Carrie have I what was fascinating to me in putting this was fascinating to me in putting this was fascinating to me in putting this together is 95 to 2005. I tried to name together is 95 to 2005. I tried to name together is 95 to 2005. I tried to name the different eras. There's the secret the different eras. There's the secret the different eras. There's the secret era, the mega era, the multi-era. 95 to era, the mega era, the multi-era. 95 to era, the mega era, the multi-era. 95 to 2005 was by far from 1955 to 2025 the 2005 was by far from 1955 to 2025 the 2005 was by far from 1955 to 2025 the hardest 10ear time period for me to hardest 10ear time period for me to hardest 10ear time period for me to name. Like name. Like name. Like >> because >> because >> because >> there was a lot going on man >> there was a lot going on man >> there was a lot going on man >> the stuff going on the birth of >> the stuff going on the birth of >> the stuff going on the birth of leadership the missional attractional leadership the missional attractional leadership the missional attractional conversation the hand we don't realize conversation the hand we don't realize conversation the hand we don't realize but it really is the seeds of the but it really is the seeds of the but it really is the seeds of the handoff from boomer to Gen X I mean it's handoff from boomer to Gen X I mean it's handoff from boomer to Gen X I mean it's the where you're starting to mobilize the where you're starting to mobilize the where you're starting to mobilize Gen X into the next piece so you've just Gen X into the next piece so you've just Gen X into the next piece so you've just got and and there Chris C said it really got and and there Chris C said it really got and and there Chris C said it really well he told me Todd we wanted to honor well he told me Todd we wanted to honor well he told me Todd we wanted to honor our peers we wanted to stand on their our peers we wanted to stand on their our peers we wanted to stand on their shoulders and honor them and We didn't shoulders and honor them and We didn't shoulders and honor them and We didn't want to seem like mavericks wanting to want to seem like mavericks wanting to want to seem like mavericks wanting to do something different, but we knew with do something different, but we knew with do something different, but we knew with postmodern culture being different, postmodern culture being different, postmodern culture being different, we we weren't going to just be able to we we weren't going to just be able to we we weren't going to just be able to do a Saddleback Sam and Sally thing. It

do a Saddleback Sam and Sally thing. It do a Saddleback Sam and Sally thing. It was going to happen. was going to happen. was going to happen. >> Yeah, it was changing. It was it was it >> Yeah, it was changing. It was it was it >> Yeah, it was changing. It was it was it was a bit dated even a few years after was a bit dated even a few years after was a bit dated even a few years after its release in terms of that model and its release in terms of that model and its release in terms of that model and it was getting criticism already. The it was getting criticism already. The it was getting criticism already. The other thing that started at this time other thing that started at this time other thing that started at this time which is interesting I got dialup which is interesting I got dialup which is interesting I got dialup internet and an email address I think in internet and an email address I think in internet and an email address I think in 96 a year after I started like within 96 a year after I started like within 96 a year after I started like within months I guess of starting ministry but months I guess of starting ministry but months I guess of starting ministry but I remember and you know of if you're of I remember and you know of if you're of I remember and you know of if you're of a certain vintage you'll remember you a certain vintage you'll remember you a certain vintage you'll remember you couldn't always get on the internet you couldn't always get on the internet you couldn't always get on the internet you didn't always get a good connection but didn't always get a good connection but didn't always get a good connection but when I did churches started websites and when I did churches started websites and when I did churches started websites and I was telling Craig Greselle the other I was telling Craig Greselle the other I was telling Craig Greselle the other day I mean I remember following him back day I mean I remember following him back day I mean I remember following him back when he was blogging I remember Tim when he was blogging I remember Tim when he was blogging I remember Tim Stevens Tony Morgan, North Point in the Stevens Tony Morgan, North Point in the Stevens Tony Morgan, North Point in the early days. I told Andy once, I'm like, early days. I told Andy once, I'm like, early days. I told Andy once, I'm like, I think Heroes was one of the first I think Heroes was one of the first I think Heroes was one of the first I ever saw of yours and he was like, I ever saw of yours and he was like, I ever saw of yours and he was like, man, that was a long time ago. But it man, that was a long time ago. But it man, that was a long time ago. But it was dialup and it was really, you know, was dialup and it was really, you know, was dialup and it was really, you know, hard to watch and it was all hard to watch and it was all hard to watch and it was all prototypical. But when you talk about prototypical. But when you talk about prototypical. But when you talk about the convergence in the 80s of these the convergence in the 80s of these the convergence in the 80s of these different influencers under leadership different influencers under leadership different influencers under leadership network, a lot of us were starting to network, a lot of us were starting to network, a lot of us were starting to self organize our own tribes that we self organize our own tribes that we self organize our own tribes that we followed even before Facebook and followed even before Facebook and followed even before Facebook and Twitter and Instagram came along, Tik Twitter and Instagram came along, Tik Twitter and Instagram came along, Tik Tok. We were starting to compile. I Tok. We were starting to compile. I Tok. We were starting to compile. I mean, there was a blog roll back in the mean, there was a blog roll back in the mean, there was a blog roll back in the day in the early 2000s that I jumped on.

day in the early 2000s that I jumped on. day in the early 2000s that I jumped on. I think I started in ' 07 or something. I think I started in ' 07 or something. I think I started in ' 07 or something. But you know it was it was a very But you know it was it was a very But you know it was it was a very interesting era because we had that interesting era because we had that interesting era because we had that cross-pollonization cross-pollonization cross-pollonization and I think that probably contributed to and I think that probably contributed to and I think that probably contributed to the confusion about well what is the confusion about well what is the confusion about well what is missional and what is attractional well missional and what is attractional well missional and what is attractional well I knew what attractional was but what I knew what attractional was but what I knew what attractional was but what what you know what is all this stuff so what you know what is all this stuff so what you know what is all this stuff so that's also a factor any other thoughts that's also a factor any other thoughts that's also a factor any other thoughts on how the internet started to shape how on how the internet started to shape how on how the internet started to shape how we thought about ministry we thought about ministry we thought about ministry >> yeah I I think those things that were >> yeah I I think those things that were >> yeah I I think those things that were going on in 95 to 2005 that we're going on in 95 to 2005 that we're going on in 95 to 2005 that we're talking about and and what you just said talking about and and what you just said talking about and and what you just said the the iPhone, Twitter, Facebook, the the iPhone, Twitter, Facebook, the the iPhone, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Instagram, Instagram, broadband internet. You start looking at broadband internet. You start looking at broadband internet. You start looking at all of those things that didn't exist in all of those things that didn't exist in all of those things that didn't exist in 2000 much. And by 2005 to 7 is when 2000 much. And by 2005 to 7 is when 2000 much. And by 2005 to 7 is when they're all there. they're all there. they're all there. >> Exactly. And suddenly it's like, well, >> Exactly. And suddenly it's like, well, >> Exactly. And suddenly it's like, well, look at their band and look at that look at their band and look at that look at their band and look at that stage set and we could do that. Hey, I stage set and we could do that. Hey, I stage set and we could do that. Hey, I want that. And that that my thesis is want that. And that that my thesis is want that. And that that my thesis is that's what really fueled Attractional that's what really fueled Attractional that's what really fueled Attractional church. It's like we're all watching church. It's like we're all watching church. It's like we're all watching each other for the first time. We're each other for the first time. We're each other for the first time. We're listening to each other. We're seeing listening to each other. We're seeing listening to each other. We're seeing beyond just a message clip. And we're beyond just a message clip. And we're beyond just a message clip. And we're seeing that's how you guys do music.

seeing that's how you guys do music. seeing that's how you guys do music. Those are the songs you're singing. And Those are the songs you're singing. And Those are the songs you're singing. And then the whole conference scene started. then the whole conference scene started. then the whole conference scene started. You know, Catalyst, which you write You know, Catalyst, which you write You know, Catalyst, which you write about, emerged out of North Point and about, emerged out of North Point and about, emerged out of North Point and then went to the Gwynette Center, etc., then went to the Gwynette Center, etc., then went to the Gwynette Center, etc., etc. But that's where we all started etc. But that's where we all started etc. But that's where we all started taking copious notes. and you could do taking copious notes. and you could do taking copious notes. and you could do it in real time. It wasn't the annual it in real time. It wasn't the annual it in real time. It wasn't the annual conference. It was like every day you conference. It was like every day you conference. It was like every day you could go and learn and I was like could go and learn and I was like could go and learn and I was like furiously scribbling notes and trying to furiously scribbling notes and trying to furiously scribbling notes and trying to learn from some of the people I admired learn from some of the people I admired learn from some of the people I admired online. online. online. >> Yeah. And I I think all of those things, >> Yeah. And I I think all of those things, >> Yeah. And I I think all of those things, Carrie, like we're jumping ahead here, Carrie, like we're jumping ahead here, Carrie, like we're jumping ahead here, but but but 2015 to 2025, 2015 to 2025, 2015 to 2025, so much of what was happening back in 95 so much of what was happening back in 95 so much of what was happening back in 95 to 2005, to 2005, to 2005, seed planting that would influence what seed planting that would influence what seed planting that would influence what I call in two in 2015 to 2025 the I call in two in 2015 to 2025 the I call in two in 2015 to 2025 the disruption era. Um I if you take 2015 to disruption era. Um I if you take 2015 to disruption era. Um I if you take 2015 to 2025 2025 2025 I I I identified like 15 significant I I I identified like 15 significant I I I identified like 15 significant disruptions deconstrued individualism because of the internet individualism because of the internet where we move platform individualism where we move platform individualism where we move platform individualism being oh the celebrity center of things.

being oh the celebrity center of things. being oh the celebrity center of things. I in the book I talk about it, you know, I in the book I talk about it, you know, I in the book I talk about it, you know, moving from the radio station, the moving from the radio station, the moving from the radio station, the Sunday church to the playlist DJ. Now Sunday church to the playlist DJ. Now Sunday church to the playlist DJ. Now all of a sudden because of the all of a sudden because of the all of a sudden because of the technology, technology, technology, I can just tune into whatever voice I I can just tune into whatever voice I I can just tune into whatever voice I want to hear. Andy Stanley for this and want to hear. Andy Stanley for this and want to hear. Andy Stanley for this and Craig Rochelle for that and I I can do Craig Rochelle for that and I I can do Craig Rochelle for that and I I can do playlist, you know, part. But then this playlist, you know, part. But then this playlist, you know, part. But then this platformed individualism where I can be platformed individualism where I can be platformed individualism where I can be the center of things and build my own the center of things and build my own the center of things and build my own platform with with nothing else. That platform with with nothing else. That platform with with nothing else. That would be one example of something. would be one example of something. would be one example of something. Deconstruction of faith, theological Deconstruction of faith, theological Deconstruction of faith, theological erosion, the progressive conversation. erosion, the progressive conversation. erosion, the progressive conversation. >> Um, uh, let's let's take the most >> Um, uh, let's let's take the most >> Um, uh, let's let's take the most significant one that's halfway in significant one that's halfway in significant one that's halfway in between. COVID, between. COVID, between. COVID, >> the accelerator of disruption. Like, you >> the accelerator of disruption. Like, you >> the accelerator of disruption. Like, you just get so many of these disruptions. just get so many of these disruptions. just get so many of these disruptions. The way I like to articulate it is The way I like to articulate it is The way I like to articulate it is disruption on top of disruption. They're disruption on top of disruption. They're disruption on top of disruption. They're like fractures. I I think it actually like fractures. I I think it actually like fractures. I I think it actually explains the fracturing of explains the fracturing of explains the fracturing of evangelicalism. Like you've got all evangelicalism. Like you've got all evangelicalism. Like you've got all these things coming together and cur these things coming together and cur these things coming together and cur converging in a time period where you converging in a time period where you converging in a time period where you get the chaos of all the disruptions get the chaos of all the disruptions get the chaos of all the disruptions creating fracture in a way that I'm not creating fracture in a way that I'm not creating fracture in a way that I'm not sure how we recover.

sure how we recover. sure how we recover. >> I mean it's >> I mean it's >> I mean it's >> really that would be your assessment of >> really that would be your assessment of >> really that would be your assessment of it now in 2026. I don't know how we it now in 2026. I don't know how we it now in 2026. I don't know how we recover. I recover. I recover. I >> I'm not wanting to be I'm not wanting to >> I'm not wanting to be I'm not wanting to >> I'm not wanting to be I'm not wanting to sound too negative Carrie. I just on it. sound too negative Carrie. I just on it. sound too negative Carrie. I just on it. But I But I But I >> let's just take evangelicalism for a >> let's just take evangelicalism for a >> let's just take evangelicalism for a second. Like second. Like second. Like >> if if you ask me to articulate like the >> if if you ask me to articulate like the >> if if you ask me to articulate like the defining like how do you boil it down, defining like how do you boil it down, defining like how do you boil it down, okay? okay? okay? 25 years ago, if I'm going back into 25 years ago, if I'm going back into 25 years ago, if I'm going back into that 2000 time window, but let's even go that 2000 time window, but let's even go that 2000 time window, but let's even go to 1990. to 1990. to 1990. There is unity on sanctity of life, There is unity on sanctity of life, There is unity on sanctity of life, sanctity of marriage, sanctity of sanctity of marriage, sanctity of sanctity of marriage, sanctity of gender, and sanctity of scripture. We'll gender, and sanctity of scripture. We'll gender, and sanctity of scripture. We'll just call it the uni the unity of just call it the uni the unity of just call it the uni the unity of sanctities. sanctities. sanctities. You think as people who used to call You think as people who used to call You think as people who used to call themselves evangelicals or now would say themselves evangelicals or now would say themselves evangelicals or now would say they're not. How are we going to get they're not. How are we going to get they're not. How are we going to get back to unity on whatever defining back to unity on whatever defining back to unity on whatever defining things like that you want to bring things like that you want to bring things like that you want to bring together? I think we have so fractured together? I think we have so fractured together? I think we have so fractured the any sense of what used to bring us the any sense of what used to bring us the any sense of what used to bring us together in the division we're in that I together in the division we're in that I together in the division we're in that I I I want to believe Carrie and I'm just I I want to believe Carrie and I'm just I I want to believe Carrie and I'm just telling you what I want to believe right telling you what I want to believe right telling you what I want to believe right now. I'm I'm not being prophetic here, now. I'm I'm not being prophetic here, now. I'm I'm not being prophetic here, okay? I want to be optimistic okay? I want to be optimistic okay? I want to be optimistic that that that throughout history, the forest has to throughout history, the forest has to throughout history, the forest has to burn for there to be the new life with burn for there to be the new life with burn for there to be the new life with the new thing. We have 70 years of the new thing. We have 70 years of the new thing. We have 70 years of evolutionary change.

evolutionary change. evolutionary change. And we have an operating system that if And we have an operating system that if And we have an operating system that if people will really look at it hard, it's people will really look at it hard, it's people will really look at it hard, it's a dying outdated operating system. a dying outdated operating system. a dying outdated operating system. Okay? and that's not capable of Okay? and that's not capable of Okay? and that's not capable of producing what we want to see. So, I producing what we want to see. So, I producing what we want to see. So, I actually find optimism in this what I'm actually find optimism in this what I'm actually find optimism in this what I'm calling disruption era of 2015 to 2025. calling disruption era of 2015 to 2025. calling disruption era of 2015 to 2025. I don't know whether what's going on I don't know whether what's going on I don't know whether what's going on with Gen Z is a renewal, a with Gen Z is a renewal, a with Gen Z is a renewal, a revitalization. I'm not sure what it is. revitalization. I'm not sure what it is. revitalization. I'm not sure what it is. Let's at the minimum say it's a Let's at the minimum say it's a Let's at the minimum say it's a resurgence, but new things happen with resurgence, but new things happen with resurgence, but new things happen with new generations. new generations. new generations. We are desperately in need of We are desperately in need of We are desperately in need of revolutionary change in the operating revolutionary change in the operating revolutionary change in the operating system of what we're doing. Evolutionary system of what we're doing. Evolutionary system of what we're doing. Evolutionary is going to come in direct collision is going to come in direct collision is going to come in direct collision with Gen Z and Gen Alpha right now. And with Gen Z and Gen Alpha right now. And with Gen Z and Gen Alpha right now. And I want to be optimistic I want to be optimistic I want to be optimistic that we're going to see some that we're going to see some that we're going to see some revolutionary things happening. revolutionary things happening. revolutionary things happening. Now the challenge is we still have the Now the challenge is we still have the Now the challenge is we still have the inheritors inheritors inheritors controlling the influence part. The controlling the influence part. The controlling the influence part. The issue is going to be what's it look like issue is going to be what's it look like issue is going to be what's it look like to empower, equip, and give permission to empower, equip, and give permission to empower, equip, and give permission to the next generation for new wine and to the next generation for new wine and to the next generation for new wine and new wine skin things.

new wine skin things. new wine skin things. >> Interesting. Okay. So, you're seeing the >> Interesting. Okay. So, you're seeing the >> Interesting. Okay. So, you're seeing the revival. I know you mentioned it revival. I know you mentioned it revival. I know you mentioned it earlier. We're in overall decline still earlier. We're in overall decline still earlier. We're in overall decline still like Barnum P research is very clear on like Barnum P research is very clear on like Barnum P research is very clear on that, but we are seeing, that, but we are seeing, that, but we are seeing, >> you know, some some flames here and >> you know, some some flames here and >> you know, some some flames here and there that are very encouraging. there that are very encouraging. there that are very encouraging. Baptisms, young adults coming back to Baptisms, young adults coming back to Baptisms, young adults coming back to church. But you're right. You you're church. But you're right. You you're church. But you're right. You you're you're putting your finger on something you're putting your finger on something you're putting your finger on something really interesting. really interesting. really interesting. That might be a good place to close this That might be a good place to close this That might be a good place to close this seminary class out on Todd. Um I I have seminary class out on Todd. Um I I have seminary class out on Todd. Um I I have numerous friends that I text on a numerous friends that I text on a numerous friends that I text on a regular basis who are somewhere between regular basis who are somewhere between regular basis who are somewhere between like late 20s and 40 who have inherited like late 20s and 40 who have inherited like late 20s and 40 who have inherited big churches from boomers, um some Gen big churches from boomers, um some Gen big churches from boomers, um some Gen X, etc., etc. and they've got the X, etc., etc. and they've got the X, etc., etc. and they've got the machine that we just described, right? machine that we just described, right? machine that we just described, right? They've got multiple locations or They've got multiple locations or They've got multiple locations or thousands of people, etc., etc. Other thousands of people, etc., etc. Other thousands of people, etc., etc. Other friends who are young who started a friends who are young who started a friends who are young who started a church and instead of having 200, they church and instead of having 200, they church and instead of having 200, they have 2,000 now a couple years later. have 2,000 now a couple years later. have 2,000 now a couple years later. And when you're thinking about that and And when you're thinking about that and And when you're thinking about that and you're thinking about the forest burns you're thinking about the forest burns you're thinking about the forest burns to the ground, a new life comes up, what to the ground, a new life comes up, what to the ground, a new life comes up, what is what does that new life look like?

is what does that new life look like? is what does that new life look like? Maybe that's an unanswerable question, Maybe that's an unanswerable question, Maybe that's an unanswerable question, but like I'm I I'm hoping everybody who but like I'm I I'm hoping everybody who but like I'm I I'm hoping everybody who inherited a large church is going to inherited a large church is going to inherited a large church is going to listen to this episode because they're listen to this episode because they're listen to this episode because they're going to realize, oh my gosh, this is going to realize, oh my gosh, this is going to realize, oh my gosh, this is how we got here, right? Hence the title how we got here, right? Hence the title how we got here, right? Hence the title of your book. Um, but what what are your of your book. Um, but what what are your of your book. Um, but what what are your thoughts for those leaders who are maybe thoughts for those leaders who are maybe thoughts for those leaders who are maybe planting or inheriting in real time? planting or inheriting in real time? planting or inheriting in real time? >> Yeah, I I the first thing that I would >> Yeah, I I the first thing that I would >> Yeah, I I the first thing that I would affirm is I I I don't think the future affirm is I I I don't think the future affirm is I I I don't think the future should be about trying to burn something should be about trying to burn something should be about trying to burn something down. down. down. I I mean I I think the large churches I I mean I I think the large churches I I mean I I think the large churches that we have that are doing good things that we have that are doing good things that we have that are doing good things I I wouldn't go try to do revolutionary I I wouldn't go try to do revolutionary I I wouldn't go try to do revolutionary change to change things. Our danger change to change things. Our danger change to change things. Our danger right now Carrie in my opinion is coming right now Carrie in my opinion is coming right now Carrie in my opinion is coming out of co there was a consolidation that out of co there was a consolidation that out of co there was a consolidation that happened where big churches got bigger happened where big churches got bigger happened where big churches got bigger partly because they're taking what's partly because they're taking what's partly because they're taking what's coming out. coming out. coming out. >> Small churches died. They just didn't >> Small churches died. They just didn't >> Small churches died. They just didn't make it. make it. make it. >> Yeah. And and I don't personally want to >> Yeah. And and I don't personally want to >> Yeah. And and I don't personally want to go work a lot on trying if something go work a lot on trying if something go work a lot on trying if something seems to be working for somebody in what seems to be working for somebody in what seems to be working for somebody in what they're doing, I don't go to spend a lot they're doing, I don't go to spend a lot they're doing, I don't go to spend a lot of time trying to convince them that of time trying to convince them that of time trying to convince them that you're part of a dying system. Let's let you're part of a dying system. Let's let you're part of a dying system. Let's let it play out and accomplish its thing.

it play out and accomplish its thing. it play out and accomplish its thing. Okay? Okay? Okay? >> But let's say what if the system is >> But let's say what if the system is >> But let's say what if the system is outdated and it's run its course. We outdated and it's run its course. We outdated and it's run its course. We need something new and it's going to be need something new and it's going to be need something new and it's going to be more revolutionary. So your question is more revolutionary. So your question is more revolutionary. So your question is well what would the I'm not I'm really well what would the I'm not I'm really well what would the I'm not I'm really careful in this book. I don't want to careful in this book. I don't want to careful in this book. I don't want to try to be prophetic and have predictions try to be prophetic and have predictions try to be prophetic and have predictions sort of thing, but here's the approach sort of thing, but here's the approach sort of thing, but here's the approach I'm taking is I'm taking is I'm taking is if I go back to Donald McGvern's if I go back to Donald McGvern's if I go back to Donald McGvern's principles, if I go back to what some of principles, if I go back to what some of principles, if I go back to what some of these legends, I mean, what was Hibles these legends, I mean, what was Hibles these legends, I mean, what was Hibles trying to do? What was Warren trying to do? What was Warren trying to do? What was Warren holistically trying to do in the four holistically trying to do in the four holistically trying to do in the four bases? What might revival look like if bases? What might revival look like if bases? What might revival look like if we were getting back to some of the we were getting back to some of the we were getting back to some of the intentions without the co-opting thing? intentions without the co-opting thing? intentions without the co-opting thing? Here's where mine come in. I I think Here's where mine come in. I I think Here's where mine come in. I I think we've got to see a different scorecard. we've got to see a different scorecard. we've got to see a different scorecard. I think we've got to see expressions and I think we've got to see expressions and I think we've got to see expressions and ideals in the next generation that ideals in the next generation that ideals in the next generation that really get motivated by owning really get motivated by owning really get motivated by owning geographies geographies geographies across the seven domains of society and across the seven domains of society and across the seven domains of society and a geography a geography a geography over.

over. over. >> What are the seven domains in society? >> What are the seven domains in society? >> What are the seven domains in society? >> Those are the things. There's church, >> Those are the things. There's church, >> Those are the things. There's church, there's education, business, technology. there's education, business, technology. there's education, business, technology. Some people say nine hills, seven hills. Some people say nine hills, seven hills. Some people say nine hills, seven hills. It's whatever number you want to use It's whatever number you want to use It's whatever number you want to use across all the domains of society where across all the domains of society where across all the domains of society where the church kind of stays in its lane. the church kind of stays in its lane. the church kind of stays in its lane. And that's part of the problem when the And that's part of the problem when the And that's part of the problem when the definition success is growing big. We're definition success is growing big. We're definition success is growing big. We're growing big in our domain. growing big in our domain. growing big in our domain. But are we really transforming But are we really transforming But are we really transforming society? We we didn't go down this path, society? We we didn't go down this path, society? We we didn't go down this path, but the definition of a movement, if you but the definition of a movement, if you but the definition of a movement, if you really go look at definitions of a really go look at definitions of a really go look at definitions of a movement, there's typically a leader, movement, there's typically a leader, movement, there's typically a leader, there's a cause, there's followers, there's a cause, there's followers, there's a cause, there's followers, there's impact, and there's generational there's impact, and there's generational there's impact, and there's generational generational ripple to it. And if you generational ripple to it. And if you generational ripple to it. And if you take those five things, take those five things, take those five things, the real distinctives the real distinctives the real distinctives out of those are the impact and the out of those are the impact and the out of those are the impact and the generational. What's the impact?

generational. What's the impact? generational. What's the impact? And that's where we got to look really And that's where we got to look really And that's where we got to look really hard at ourselves. Like, you know, as as hard at ourselves. Like, you know, as as hard at ourselves. Like, you know, as as we're growing these really big churches, we're growing these really big churches, we're growing these really big churches, what really across the domains of what really across the domains of what really across the domains of society in my geography society in my geography society in my geography is divorce lower? Is is divorce lower? Is is divorce lower? Is pornography lower? is we think about it pornography lower? is we think about it pornography lower? is we think about it inside the church, but we don't inside the church, but we don't inside the church, but we don't necessarily have a vision for gospel necessarily have a vision for gospel necessarily have a vision for gospel saturation that sees saturation that sees saturation that sees >> McGovern did >> McGovern did >> McGovern did >> like McGovern did that. So that's why >> like McGovern did that. So that's why >> like McGovern did that. So that's why I'm saying if we can get back to the I'm saying if we can get back to the I'm saying if we can get back to the gospel saturation vision, I I like to gospel saturation vision, I I like to gospel saturation vision, I I like to say it this way, go back to Schuler's say it this way, go back to Schuler's say it this way, go back to Schuler's thing. It's a way bigger vision to have thing. It's a way bigger vision to have thing. It's a way bigger vision to have a gospel saturation vision than growing a gospel saturation vision than growing a gospel saturation vision than growing a big church. a big church. a big church. >> Yeah. And personal health. I mean, I >> Yeah. And personal health. I mean, I >> Yeah. And personal health. I mean, I think this has been really helpful, too. think this has been really helpful, too. think this has been really helpful, too. Like that whole character platform thing Like that whole character platform thing Like that whole character platform thing I think is huge. Like if you're stepping I think is huge. Like if you're stepping I think is huge. Like if you're stepping into something big. I' I've often into something big. I' I've often into something big. I' I've often thought and I've said it before, but thought and I've said it before, but thought and I've said it before, but like I'm really glad this podcast is like I'm really glad this podcast is like I'm really glad this podcast is something I didn't have in my 30s cuz I something I didn't have in my 30s cuz I something I didn't have in my 30s cuz I don't think I could have handled the don't think I could have handled the don't think I could have handled the size or the quote success, whatever that size or the quote success, whatever that size or the quote success, whatever that means. I don't know that I had the means. I don't know that I had the means. I don't know that I had the character and I don't know that I would character and I don't know that I would character and I don't know that I would have had an affair, but I could have have had an affair, but I could have have had an affair, but I could have just imploded and been a miserable just imploded and been a miserable just imploded and been a miserable person and died under the pressure and person and died under the pressure and person and died under the pressure and have learned a few things along the way, have learned a few things along the way, have learned a few things along the way, right? But um I think it's I think it's right? But um I think it's I think it's right? But um I think it's I think it's very very helpful and I think you know very very helpful and I think you know very very helpful and I think you know moral failure has been around as long as moral failure has been around as long as moral failure has been around as long as people have been around and uh any people have been around and uh any people have been around and uh any student of history and spend 20 minutes student of history and spend 20 minutes student of history and spend 20 minutes in it you're going to discover it in in it you're going to discover it in in it you're going to discover it in every size and everything. But I think

every size and everything. But I think every size and everything. But I think there are unique pressures that come and there are unique pressures that come and there are unique pressures that come and like I said we've had hundreds of guests like I said we've had hundreds of guests like I said we've had hundreds of guests on this podcast and most of them who on this podcast and most of them who on this podcast and most of them who have led very large organizations. Well, have led very large organizations. Well, have led very large organizations. Well, actually, I've never met one who said, actually, I've never met one who said, actually, I've never met one who said, "No, I knew exactly it was going to be "No, I knew exactly it was going to be "No, I knew exactly it was going to be 50,000 people. I knew exactly this was 50,000 people. I knew exactly this was 50,000 people. I knew exactly this was going to be a 20 billion corporation." going to be a 20 billion corporation." going to be a 20 billion corporation." Like, nobody, business leaders or church Like, nobody, business leaders or church Like, nobody, business leaders or church leaders, they all have dreams, but they leaders, they all have dreams, but they leaders, they all have dreams, but they don't think it's going to happen. But don't think it's going to happen. But don't think it's going to happen. But when it does happen, are you ready? Do when it does happen, are you ready? Do when it does happen, are you ready? Do you have the character withstand? Do you you have the character withstand? Do you you have the character withstand? Do you have the team? Have you got the have the team? Have you got the have the team? Have you got the principles in place? Can can you scale? principles in place? Can can you scale? principles in place? Can can you scale? if your organization, if God blessed it, if your organization, if God blessed it, if your organization, if God blessed it, and you know, beyond just filling the and you know, beyond just filling the and you know, beyond just filling the building, if you changed a community, if building, if you changed a community, if building, if you changed a community, if you changed a city, if you did that, if you changed a city, if you did that, if you changed a city, if you did that, if you started multiplying, like what are you started multiplying, like what are you started multiplying, like what are you actually multiplying? Are you you actually multiplying? Are you you actually multiplying? Are you multiplying health? Are you multiplying multiplying health? Are you multiplying multiplying health? Are you multiplying um sickness? It's it's a good question um sickness? It's it's a good question um sickness? It's it's a good question to ask, man. And I don't know. I I am to ask, man. And I don't know. I I am to ask, man. And I don't know. I I am going to come back to this episode more going to come back to this episode more going to come back to this episode more than once into your book more than once. than once into your book more than once. than once into your book more than once. Are there any concluding thoughts? cuz I Are there any concluding thoughts? cuz I Are there any concluding thoughts? cuz I am a realist about what's really going am a realist about what's really going am a realist about what's really going on and like you I haven't lost my on and like you I haven't lost my on and like you I haven't lost my optimism like I think we're going to optimism like I think we're going to optimism like I think we're going to figure it out.

figure it out. figure it out. >> Yeah. I I think Carrie I mean you one of >> Yeah. I I think Carrie I mean you one of >> Yeah. I I think Carrie I mean you one of your disruptive trends this year is the your disruptive trends this year is the your disruptive trends this year is the disciplehip like becoming more disciplehip like becoming more disciplehip like becoming more programmatic kind of thing. I think programmatic kind of thing. I think programmatic kind of thing. I think that's got to be part of it is we're that's got to be part of it is we're that's got to be part of it is we're focused on the mission of the church of focused on the mission of the church of focused on the mission of the church of discip you know disciple making over the discip you know disciple making over the discip you know disciple making over the noun disciplehip. Um I I think what I'm noun disciplehip. Um I I think what I'm noun disciplehip. Um I I think what I'm really burdened by is the next really burdened by is the next really burdened by is the next generation part of this that I don't generation part of this that I don't generation part of this that I don't think we can just assume that because think we can just assume that because think we can just assume that because there's some good bright spots with it. there's some good bright spots with it. there's some good bright spots with it. We've got to figure out how do we come We've got to figure out how do we come We've got to figure out how do we come alongside give permission alongside give permission alongside give permission give cheerleading like it's how do we give cheerleading like it's how do we give cheerleading like it's how do we allow new expressions new things pouring allow new expressions new things pouring allow new expressions new things pouring gas on and at the same time gas on and at the same time gas on and at the same time not throw the baby out with the bath not throw the baby out with the bath not throw the baby out with the bath water either. the part of what's gotten water either. the part of what's gotten water either. the part of what's gotten us where we are is a degradation on the us where we are is a degradation on the us where we are is a degradation on the theology. It's this platformed theology. It's this platformed theology. It's this platformed individualism. I mean, there's some individualism. I mean, there's some individualism. I mean, there's some challenges that we can't just assume the challenges that we can't just assume the challenges that we can't just assume the characters there, the solid theologies characters there, the solid theologies characters there, the solid theologies there. Um, and I I think what it looks there. Um, and I I think what it looks there. Um, and I I think what it looks like for boomers and Gen X and like for boomers and Gen X and like for boomers and Gen X and increasingly millennials to see their increasingly millennials to see their increasingly millennials to see their role is how am I equipping and role is how am I equipping and role is how am I equipping and mobilizing this next generation? um not mobilizing this next generation? um not mobilizing this next generation? um not just for the evolutionary part, but just for the evolutionary part, but just for the evolutionary part, but what's it look like to truly give what's it look like to truly give what's it look like to truly give permission for some revolutionary permission for some revolutionary permission for some revolutionary change? Recognizing that we can't just change? Recognizing that we can't just change? Recognizing that we can't just assume that the character stuff you're assume that the character stuff you're assume that the character stuff you're talking about. I mean, the surveys right talking about. I mean, the surveys right talking about. I mean, the surveys right now are showing it. It's it's funny. Um

now are showing it. It's it's funny. Um now are showing it. It's it's funny. Um uh I was in a meeting with a guy the uh I was in a meeting with a guy the uh I was in a meeting with a guy the other day that highlighted that he asked other day that highlighted that he asked other day that highlighted that he asked the question of us in the room. What'd the question of us in the room. What'd the question of us in the room. What'd you want to be when you were a kid? And you want to be when you were a kid? And you want to be when you were a kid? And everybody in the room, these are all everybody in the room, these are all everybody in the room, these are all boomers and Gen Xers in the room. And boomers and Gen Xers in the room. And boomers and Gen Xers in the room. And oh, I wanted to be an astronaut. Oh, I oh, I wanted to be an astronaut. Oh, I oh, I wanted to be an astronaut. Oh, I wanted to be president. Oh, I wanted to wanted to be president. Oh, I wanted to wanted to be president. Oh, I wanted to be an engineer. Every answer was be an engineer. Every answer was be an engineer. Every answer was somebody wanted to build something somebody wanted to build something somebody wanted to build something productive. productive. productive. And now the studies are showing that Gen And now the studies are showing that Gen And now the studies are showing that Gen Z wants to be platform influencers on Z wants to be platform influencers on Z wants to be platform influencers on YouTube. YouTube. YouTube. >> All right. I want to be a YouTuber. >> All right. I want to be a YouTuber. >> All right. I want to be a YouTuber. >> I want to be Tik Tok influencer. Want to >> I want to be Tik Tok influencer. Want to >> I want to be Tik Tok influencer. Want to have a private jet. I don't want to just have a private jet. I don't want to just have a private jet. I don't want to just like I don't want to just be a naysayer like I don't want to just be a naysayer like I don't want to just be a naysayer on that but it's like how do how do we on that but it's like how do how do we on that but it's like how do how do we release and equip that release and equip that release and equip that >> but do it in a way that we're also >> but do it in a way that we're also >> but do it in a way that we're also staying core to disciplem Jesus staying core to disciplem Jesus staying core to disciplem Jesus saturation like what these things and I saturation like what these things and I saturation like what these things and I think we've got a major challenge of think we've got a major challenge of think we've got a major challenge of that balancing act. Yeah, I agree with that balancing act. Yeah, I agree with that balancing act. Yeah, I agree with you. You know, a cynical take on our you. You know, a cynical take on our you. You know, a cynical take on our conversation or the history of the conversation or the history of the conversation or the history of the church growth movement would be great. church growth movement would be great. church growth movement would be great. The boomers ruined the housing market.

The boomers ruined the housing market. The boomers ruined the housing market. They ruined the economy and now they're They ruined the economy and now they're They ruined the economy and now they're ruining the church and we inherit all ruining the church and we inherit all ruining the church and we inherit all this. But the other thing a mentor once this. But the other thing a mentor once this. But the other thing a mentor once said to me that I've never forgotten and said to me that I've never forgotten and said to me that I've never forgotten and try to live by. You can fight it or you try to live by. You can fight it or you try to live by. You can fight it or you can fund it. So if you're a little bit can fund it. So if you're a little bit can fund it. So if you're a little bit of an older leader, you're getting up of an older leader, you're getting up of an older leader, you're getting up there, you're Gen X, you're a boomer, there, you're Gen X, you're a boomer, there, you're Gen X, you're a boomer, you're a silent generation, you can you're a silent generation, you can you're a silent generation, you can fight it or you can fund it. and fuel fight it or you can fund it. and fuel fight it or you can fund it. and fuel it. And one thing I love about Gen Z, it. And one thing I love about Gen Z, it. And one thing I love about Gen Z, Gen Alpha is they love talking to ne to Gen Alpha is they love talking to ne to Gen Alpha is they love talking to ne to older generations. They they are looking older generations. They they are looking older generations. They they are looking for wisdom. And I think there's a for wisdom. And I think there's a for wisdom. And I think there's a partnership not for us to pull all the partnership not for us to pull all the partnership not for us to pull all the strings, but to enable, equip, and to strings, but to enable, equip, and to strings, but to enable, equip, and to celebrate when this new wine gets poured celebrate when this new wine gets poured celebrate when this new wine gets poured in. And maybe there's some new wine in. And maybe there's some new wine in. And maybe there's some new wine skins along the way. skins along the way. skins along the way. >> Well, the book is called How Do We Get >> Well, the book is called How Do We Get >> Well, the book is called How Do We Get Here? Looking back to Look Forward. I am Here? Looking back to Look Forward. I am Here? Looking back to Look Forward. I am glad we did this seminary class on glad we did this seminary class on glad we did this seminary class on church history. church growth movement church history. church growth movement church history. church growth movement history. It really helped me, Todd. So, history. It really helped me, Todd. So, history. It really helped me, Todd. So, the book's out. Where is it available? the book's out. Where is it available? the book's out. Where is it available? Where can people learn more? Where can Where can people learn more? Where can Where can people learn more? Where can they find you? they find you? they find you? >> Yep. There the main website will be >> Yep. There the main website will be >> Yep. There the main website will be church-growth.org.

church-growth.org. church-growth.org. Um, and Carrie, what I'm most excited Um, and Carrie, what I'm most excited Um, and Carrie, what I'm most excited about is uh there's going to be a wiki about is uh there's going to be a wiki about is uh there's going to be a wiki form of it. And here's here's why. Uh, I form of it. And here's here's why. Uh, I form of it. And here's here's why. Uh, I mean, you can get it in digital or print mean, you can get it in digital or print mean, you can get it in digital or print copies from Amazon and the different copies from Amazon and the different copies from Amazon and the different places, but the wiki version, here's places, but the wiki version, here's places, but the wiki version, here's what's exciting. what's exciting. what's exciting. You're not going to be able to read this You're not going to be able to read this You're not going to be able to read this book without seeing where you fit in the book without seeing where you fit in the book without seeing where you fit in the story. Anybody who reads the book, uh, story. Anybody who reads the book, uh, story. Anybody who reads the book, uh, my editor on the book told me, "I can my editor on the book told me, "I can my editor on the book told me, "I can tell you the page in the book that I tell you the page in the book that I tell you the page in the book that I entered the story into this." entered the story into this." entered the story into this." >> I I had the same feeling. I'm like, "Oh >> I I had the same feeling. I'm like, "Oh >> I I had the same feeling. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is my era. I see it. I see my gosh, this is my era. I see it. I see my gosh, this is my era. I see it. I see it. I remember these people." Wow. it. I remember these people." Wow. it. I remember these people." Wow. >> So, my my process of endorsements right >> So, my my process of endorsements right >> So, my my process of endorsements right now, Carrie, is really fascinating now, Carrie, is really fascinating now, Carrie, is really fascinating compared to all the other books I've compared to all the other books I've compared to all the other books I've done. Instead of asking people to write done. Instead of asking people to write done. Instead of asking people to write an endorsement, I'm asking them to an endorsement, I'm asking them to an endorsement, I'm asking them to review the book and find a place to put review the book and find a place to put review the book and find a place to put a quote in the book a quote in the book a quote in the book because anybody that's been part of even because anybody that's been part of even because anybody that's been part of even 10 plus years of this, they have part of 10 plus years of this, they have part of 10 plus years of this, they have part of the story. So, what I'm really hoping the story. So, what I'm really hoping the story. So, what I'm really hoping happens with this is that what starts happens with this is that what starts happens with this is that what starts out at a as a relatively long history out at a as a relatively long history out at a as a relatively long history book becomes a longer and longer and book becomes a longer and longer and book becomes a longer and longer and longer living, breathing. I want people longer living, breathing. I want people longer living, breathing. I want people to go and actually fill in the gaps in to go and actually fill in the gaps in to go and actually fill in the gaps in the book.

the book. the book. >> So, this is think of it as a living >> So, this is think of it as a living >> So, this is think of it as a living breathing book on the wiki or uh the breathing book on the wiki or uh the breathing book on the wiki or uh the website church-growth.org will have the website church-growth.org will have the website church-growth.org will have the you know where you can download it or you know where you can download it or you know where you can download it or purchase it. purchase it. purchase it. >> Todd, your gift. I got to tell you, I >> Todd, your gift. I got to tell you, I >> Todd, your gift. I got to tell you, I don't know that too many people could don't know that too many people could don't know that too many people could have written this book. And um I needed have written this book. And um I needed have written this book. And um I needed it. I needed a long time ago. I'm glad it. I needed a long time ago. I'm glad it. I needed a long time ago. I'm glad you wrote it and I'm really grateful for you wrote it and I'm really grateful for you wrote it and I'm really grateful for the unique gift you are to me and to the the unique gift you are to me and to the the unique gift you are to me and to the church. So, thank you so much for today. church. So, thank you so much for today. church. So, thank you so much for today. I couldn't be more grateful. I couldn't be more grateful. I couldn't be more grateful. >> Well, thank you, Carrie. I appreciate >> Well, thank you, Carrie. I appreciate >> Well, thank you, Carrie. I appreciate you letting me be on and uh uh this is you letting me be on and uh uh this is you letting me be on and uh uh this is officially my celebration of being done officially my celebration of being done officially my celebration of being done with the book. So, thank you for being with the book. So, thank you for being with the book. So, thank you for being >> two years of your life and hundreds of >> two years of your life and hundreds of >> two years of your life and hundreds of hours of interviews. And I mean, a lot hours of interviews. And I mean, a lot hours of interviews. And I mean, a lot of this is living history. So, thank you of this is living history. So, thank you of this is living history. So, thank you for doing it. for doing it. for doing it. >> Thank you, Carrie. Well, I told you it >> Thank you, Carrie. Well, I told you it >> Thank you, Carrie. Well, I told you it was the seminary class you never got. I was the seminary class you never got. I was the seminary class you never got. I hope you enjoyed that. And we have show hope you enjoyed that. And we have show hope you enjoyed that. And we have show notes for you. Todd and I mentioned a notes for you. Todd and I mentioned a notes for you. Todd and I mentioned a lot of stuff. You'll find the link to lot of stuff. You'll find the link to lot of stuff. You'll find the link to his book and a whole lot more over in my his book and a whole lot more over in my his book and a whole lot more over in my Art of Leadership Academy. You can join Art of Leadership Academy. You can join Art of Leadership Academy. You can join for free. Join join 20,000 church for free. Join join 20,000 church for free. Join join 20,000 church leaders. We have great conversations in leaders. We have great conversations in leaders. We have great conversations in the academy and you can join for free by the academy and you can join for free by the academy and you can join for free by going to the art of going to the art of going to the art of leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com or clicking the link in the description or clicking the link in the description or clicking the link in the description of this episode. It'll take you directly of this episode. It'll take you directly of this episode. It'll take you directly there. and uh come join the there. and uh come join the there. and uh come join the conversation. Move from the crowd to the conversation. Move from the crowd to the conversation. Move from the crowd to the core and we will discuss good topics core and we will discuss good topics core and we will discuss good topics like this and we'll do it without the like this and we'll do it without the like this and we'll do it without the usual noise of the internet. We have a usual noise of the internet. We have a usual noise of the internet. We have a lot of great conversations there. Well, lot of great conversations there. Well, lot of great conversations there. Well, next episode I've got Vic Green and next episode I've got Vic Green and next episode I've got Vic Green and Robbie Galed and they are talking about

Robbie Galed and they are talking about Robbie Galed and they are talking about what happens when the playbook that you what happens when the playbook that you what happens when the playbook that you have been using for years stops working have been using for years stops working have been using for years stops working particularly on disciplehip and particularly on disciplehip and particularly on disciplehip and evangelism and revival. Talk about all evangelism and revival. Talk about all evangelism and revival. Talk about all those things. Now, the best way to make those things. Now, the best way to make those things. Now, the best way to make sure you don't miss it is to hit follow. sure you don't miss it is to hit follow. sure you don't miss it is to hit follow. Wherever you're listening, wherever Wherever you're listening, wherever Wherever you're listening, wherever you're watching, follow, subscribe. I you're watching, follow, subscribe. I you're watching, follow, subscribe. I want to thank you. I mean, it's such a want to thank you. I mean, it's such a want to thank you. I mean, it's such a privilege to be able to do this and to privilege to be able to do this and to privilege to be able to do this and to take it in so many different directions. take it in so many different directions. take it in so many different directions. Uh, today was definitely a different Uh, today was definitely a different Uh, today was definitely a different direction, but I do hope that it was direction, but I do hope that it was direction, but I do hope that it was helpful to you and to your team. We'll helpful to you and to your team. We'll helpful to you and to your team. We'll catch you next time on the podcast. catch you next time on the podcast. catch you next time on the podcast. Remember, if this was meaningful, leave Remember, if this was meaningful, leave Remember, if this was meaningful, leave us a rating and review, share it with a us a rating and review, share it with a us a rating and review, share it with a friend, and maybe post it to social. We friend, and maybe post it to social. We friend, and maybe post it to social. We are really grateful for that. You can are really grateful for that. You can are really grateful for that. You can tag me. I'm on Instagram. Carrie Nu-Hoff tag me. I'm on Instagram. Carrie Nu-Hoff tag me. I'm on Instagram. Carrie Nu-Hoff over there. I hope our time together over there. I hope our time together over there. I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.