Why America Is Spiritually Adrift | David Brooks on Faith, Culture & Tim Keller

We've told generations of kids, come up We've told generations of kids, come up with your own values. Come up with your with your own values. Come up with your with your own values. Come up with your own truth. And A, if unless your name is own truth. And A, if unless your name is own truth. And A, if unless your name is Aristotle, you probably can't do it. But Aristotle, you probably can't do it. But Aristotle, you probably can't do it. But B, you don't have the you don't live B, you don't have the you don't live B, you don't have the you don't live with an immoral order. And a guy, a with an immoral order. And a guy, a with an immoral order. And a guy, a columnist named Walter Libman saw this columnist named Walter Libman saw this columnist named Walter Libman saw this coming as early as 1955. He wrote a book coming as early as 1955. He wrote a book coming as early as 1955. He wrote a book called The Public Philosophy. And he called The Public Philosophy. And he called The Public Philosophy. And he wrote that if what is right and wrong is wrote that if what is right and wrong is wrote that if what is right and wrong is just what each individual gets to decide just what each individual gets to decide just what each individual gets to decide based on his or her own feelings, we based on his or her own feelings, we based on his or her own feelings, we have left the realm of civilization. have left the realm of civilization. have left the realm of civilization. And I think we've left that realm. We're And I think we've left that realm. We're And I think we've left that realm. We're all sort of in a moral universe of one. all sort of in a moral universe of one. all sort of in a moral universe of one. Welcome to the Kyrie Hoff Leadership Welcome to the Kyrie Hoff Leadership Welcome to the Kyrie Hoff Leadership Podcast on YouTube. Man, I'm so glad you Podcast on YouTube. Man, I'm so glad you Podcast on YouTube. Man, I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, is America joined us. Hey, is America joined us. Hey, is America overpoliticized overpoliticized overpoliticized and under moralized? Well, David Brooks and under moralized? Well, David Brooks and under moralized? Well, David Brooks thinks so. He's one of the leading thinks so. He's one of the leading thinks so. He's one of the leading commentators on America Today. He writes commentators on America Today. He writes commentators on America Today. He writes for the New York Times, The Atlantic, for the New York Times, The Atlantic, for the New York Times, The Atlantic, PBS NewsHour. Um, and we talk about PBS NewsHour. Um, and we talk about PBS NewsHour. Um, and we talk about American church culture, becoming a American church culture, becoming a American church culture, becoming a Christian, what it was like to be Christian, what it was like to be Christian, what it was like to be pastored by Tim Keller, and a whole lot pastored by Tim Keller, and a whole lot pastored by Tim Keller, and a whole lot more. We've got show notes for you if more. We've got show notes for you if more. We've got show notes for you if just if you click the link. Here's what just if you click the link. Here's what just if you click the link. Here's what we can do. We can take it beyond the we can do. We can take it beyond the we can do. We can take it beyond the YouTube comments. We're going to post YouTube comments. We're going to post YouTube comments. We're going to post them in my private forum. It's called them in my private forum. It's called them in my private forum. It's called the Art of Leadership Academy. If you the Art of Leadership Academy. If you the Art of Leadership Academy. If you want a troll-free environment with other want a troll-free environment with other want a troll-free environment with other like-minded leaders, join the community, like-minded leaders, join the community, like-minded leaders, join the community, absolutely free. You don't need a credit absolutely free. You don't need a credit absolutely free. You don't need a credit card. Just create an account. You'll be card. Just create an account. You'll be card. Just create an account. You'll be able to have rich conversations with able to have rich conversations with able to have rich conversations with church leaders from across America and church leaders from across America and church leaders from across America and around the world. Just go to around the world. Just go to around the world. Just go to kyneu-hoff.com/showotes.

kyneu-hoff.com/showotes. kyneu-hoff.com/showotes. Well, we'll jump into my conversation Well, we'll jump into my conversation Well, we'll jump into my conversation with David Brooks in just a moment. But with David Brooks in just a moment. But with David Brooks in just a moment. But first, a word from our carefully chosen first, a word from our carefully chosen first, a word from our carefully chosen partners. Today's episode is brought to partners. Today's episode is brought to partners. Today's episode is brought to you by my art of leadership academy. So, you by my art of leadership academy. So, you by my art of leadership academy. So, I recently heard Simon Synynic define I recently heard Simon Synynic define I recently heard Simon Synynic define community and I thought it was really community and I thought it was really community and I thought it was really good. He thinks the difference in the good. He thinks the difference in the good. He thinks the difference in the future is going to be people who are future is going to be people who are future is going to be people who are part of the crowd, people who are part part of the crowd, people who are part part of the crowd, people who are part of the community. and he said, "A of the community. and he said, "A of the community. and he said, "A community is a group of people who agree community is a group of people who agree community is a group of people who agree to grow together." Now, I love that to grow together." Now, I love that to grow together." Now, I love that because it's a simple definition, and because it's a simple definition, and because it's a simple definition, and that's exactly what this podcast is that's exactly what this podcast is that's exactly what this podcast is becoming. You know, for years, over a becoming. You know, for years, over a becoming. You know, for years, over a decade, this show was something you decade, this show was something you decade, this show was something you listen to on your own, right? You just listen to on your own, right? You just listen to on your own, right? You just put in your AirPods and away you go. You put in your AirPods and away you go. You put in your AirPods and away you go. You mow the lawn, take a drive, whatever you mow the lawn, take a drive, whatever you mow the lawn, take a drive, whatever you do. But now, we've changed that. It's a do. But now, we've changed that. It's a do. But now, we've changed that. It's a place where you can start growing place where you can start growing place where you can start growing together. And here's how to do that. together. And here's how to do that. together. And here's how to do that. Yeah, definitely listen to the pod, Yeah, definitely listen to the pod, Yeah, definitely listen to the pod, watch it, whatever you're doing. But I watch it, whatever you're doing. But I watch it, whatever you're doing. But I want to invite you to join a community, want to invite you to join a community, want to invite you to join a community, not just an audience. This is a place not just an audience. This is a place not just an audience. This is a place where pastors and church leaders just where pastors and church leaders just where pastors and church leaders just like you wrestle with the same questions like you wrestle with the same questions like you wrestle with the same questions and move toward healthier leadership and move toward healthier leadership and move toward healthier leadership together. So in our free podcast together. So in our free podcast together. So in our free podcast community, here's what you're going to community, here's what you're going to community, here's what you're going to find. Thoughtful discussion, deeper find. Thoughtful discussion, deeper find. Thoughtful discussion, deeper insight into each episode, a space to insight into each episode, a space to insight into each episode, a space to reflect, share, and grow with others who reflect, share, and grow with others who reflect, share, and grow with others who are on the same journey troll free. So are on the same journey troll free. So are on the same journey troll free. So as you listen to today's episode, keep a as you listen to today's episode, keep a as you listen to today's episode, keep a couple of questions in mind. We'll be couple of questions in mind. We'll be couple of questions in mind. We'll be discussing them together as a group discussing them together as a group discussing them together as a group inside the free academy. Where have you inside the free academy. Where have you inside the free academy. Where have you seen your church get tangled up in seen your church get tangled up in seen your church get tangled up in politics? Okay, there's a big one. Do politics? Okay, there's a big one. Do politics? Okay, there's a big one. Do you have a space to discuss that? And you have a space to discuss that? And you have a space to discuss that? And then how do you lead through it? And then how do you lead through it? And then how do you lead through it? And then a second one, have you ever faced

then a second one, have you ever faced then a second one, have you ever faced criticism for not speaking out on a criticism for not speaking out on a criticism for not speaking out on a political issue? And then the question political issue? And then the question political issue? And then the question is, how did you respond? Well, if you're is, how did you respond? Well, if you're is, how did you respond? Well, if you're already a member of the Art of already a member of the Art of already a member of the Art of Leadership Academy, head on over to the Leadership Academy, head on over to the Leadership Academy, head on over to the podcast community, jump into the podcast community, jump into the podcast community, jump into the conversation, and if not, you can join. conversation, and if not, you can join. conversation, and if not, you can join. There is a link in the description of There is a link in the description of There is a link in the description of this episode. Create a free account. No this episode. Create a free account. No this episode. Create a free account. No um nothing beyond that. Just click the um nothing beyond that. Just click the um nothing beyond that. Just click the link and uh you can get started or you link and uh you can get started or you link and uh you can get started or you can visit the can visit the can visit the arttoofleershipacademy.com. arttoofleershipacademy.com. arttoofleershipacademy.com. I'm in there. I'd love for you to join I'm in there. I'd love for you to join I'm in there. I'd love for you to join the conversation and it's time to be the conversation and it's time to be the conversation and it's time to be part of a community. Hope to see you in part of a community. Hope to see you in part of a community. Hope to see you in there soon. This episode is brought to there soon. This episode is brought to there soon. This episode is brought to you by the GLS. I don't need to tell you you by the GLS. I don't need to tell you you by the GLS. I don't need to tell you how demanding ministry has become. All how demanding ministry has become. All how demanding ministry has become. All right, you know it. between burnout, right, you know it. between burnout, right, you know it. between burnout, complexity, and leading through constant complexity, and leading through constant complexity, and leading through constant change. The work you're doing takes deep change. The work you're doing takes deep change. The work you're doing takes deep wisdom and fresh perspective. And that's wisdom and fresh perspective. And that's wisdom and fresh perspective. And that's exactly why I make the Global Leadership exactly why I make the Global Leadership exactly why I make the Global Leadership Summit a priority every year. I'm going Summit a priority every year. I'm going Summit a priority every year. I'm going to be there in Chicago happening August to be there in Chicago happening August to be there in Chicago happening August 7th through 8th at this year's Global 7th through 8th at this year's Global 7th through 8th at this year's Global Leadership Summit. It's 2 days of Leadership Summit. It's 2 days of Leadership Summit. It's 2 days of powerful, worldclass faculty speaking powerful, worldclass faculty speaking powerful, worldclass faculty speaking into the real challenges that you face into the real challenges that you face into the real challenges that you face as a church leader. And here's what'll as a church leader. And here's what'll as a church leader. And here's what'll happen. You're going to walk away happen. You're going to walk away happen. You're going to walk away encouraged, inspired, and equipped to encouraged, inspired, and equipped to encouraged, inspired, and equipped to lead your church with greater clarity lead your church with greater clarity lead your church with greater clarity and with confidence. Now, because I'm and with confidence. Now, because I'm and with confidence. Now, because I'm going to be there and we have a going to be there and we have a going to be there and we have a partnership with the GLS, I've got an partnership with the GLS, I've got an partnership with the GLS, I've got an exclusive offer for podcast listeners.

exclusive offer for podcast listeners. exclusive offer for podcast listeners. Use the code GLS25 carry and you'll get Use the code GLS25 carry and you'll get Use the code GLS25 carry and you'll get 10% off your ticket at a local host site 10% off your ticket at a local host site 10% off your ticket at a local host site or online. and act before the early bird or online. and act before the early bird or online. and act before the early bird deadline on July 16th. Your price drops deadline on July 16th. Your price drops deadline on July 16th. Your price drops from 221 to just $1.99 and the code from 221 to just $1.99 and the code from 221 to just $1.99 and the code works through August 7th, even as prices works through August 7th, even as prices works through August 7th, even as prices go up. So, interested, go to go up. So, interested, go to go up. So, interested, go to globalleership.org/summit globalleership.org/summit globalleership.org/summit [Music] [Music] [Music] and use the coupon code GLS25 carry. and use the coupon code GLS25 carry. and use the coupon code GLS25 carry. That's glare That's glare That's glare ry at checkout. I don't miss it because ry at checkout. I don't miss it because ry at checkout. I don't miss it because frankly I want to stay out on the latest frankly I want to stay out on the latest frankly I want to stay out on the latest stuff and I love attending the Global stuff and I love attending the Global stuff and I love attending the Global Leadership Summit. So, will I see you Leadership Summit. So, will I see you Leadership Summit. So, will I see you there this August? You lead others there this August? You lead others there this August? You lead others spiritually. Take the time to invest in spiritually. Take the time to invest in spiritually. Take the time to invest in yourself. David, I've been looking yourself. David, I've been looking yourself. David, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long forward to this conversation for a long forward to this conversation for a long time. Welcome. time. Welcome. time. Welcome. Oh, it's great to be with you. Oh, it's great to be with you. Oh, it's great to be with you. Yeah. So, I'd love to begin by exploring Yeah. So, I'd love to begin by exploring Yeah. So, I'd love to begin by exploring your journey. I've I've thought about your journey. I've I've thought about your journey. I've I've thought about this question a lot. How does one become this question a lot. How does one become this question a lot. How does one become a widely regarded and read public a widely regarded and read public a widely regarded and read public journalist intellectual? I mean, it's journalist intellectual? I mean, it's journalist intellectual? I mean, it's not like that that's not something you not like that that's not something you not like that that's not something you graduate from college with going, "This graduate from college with going, "This graduate from college with going, "This is where my life is going to end up."

is where my life is going to end up." is where my life is going to end up." How did how did that happen for you? How did how did that happen for you? How did how did that happen for you? A lot of Machavevelian strategizing and A lot of Machavevelian strategizing and A lot of Machavevelian strategizing and kicking people on the way up. Uh, kicking people on the way up. Uh, kicking people on the way up. Uh, no. You know, I sort of did think this no. You know, I sort of did think this no. You know, I sort of did think this is what I was going to be doing when is what I was going to be doing when is what I was going to be doing when when I was seven. I read a book called when I was seven. I read a book called when I was seven. I read a book called Paddington the Bear. And I decided at Paddington the Bear. And I decided at Paddington the Bear. And I decided at that moment I wanted to become a writer. that moment I wanted to become a writer. that moment I wanted to become a writer. And so I've pretty much been writing And so I've pretty much been writing And so I've pretty much been writing every day since. Um you know, literally every day since. Um you know, literally every day since. Um you know, literally every day except for maybe 200 over the every day except for maybe 200 over the every day except for maybe 200 over the course of my adult life when I actually course of my adult life when I actually course of my adult life when I actually take a vacation or a Sabbath. Uh but so take a vacation or a Sabbath. Uh but so take a vacation or a Sabbath. Uh but so I wake up in the morning uh and from I wake up in the morning uh and from I wake up in the morning uh and from 8:00 a.m. to usually about 1:00 p.m. I'm 8:00 a.m. to usually about 1:00 p.m. I'm 8:00 a.m. to usually about 1:00 p.m. I'm writing my thousand words. When my wife writing my thousand words. When my wife writing my thousand words. When my wife and I got married, she thought we were and I got married, she thought we were and I got married, she thought we were going to have long leisurely breakfast. going to have long leisurely breakfast. going to have long leisurely breakfast. But I really don't talk to another human But I really don't talk to another human But I really don't talk to another human being until I'm have written 1,200 being until I'm have written 1,200 being until I'm have written 1,200 words. I used to wear a Fitbit. And it words. I used to wear a Fitbit. And it words. I used to wear a Fitbit. And it told me I was napping in the mornings, told me I was napping in the mornings, told me I was napping in the mornings, but I wasn't napping. I was just doing but I wasn't napping. I was just doing but I wasn't napping. I was just doing what God put me on this earth to do. And what God put me on this earth to do. And what God put me on this earth to do. And so I thought I was going to be a so I thought I was going to be a so I thought I was going to be a novelist. Then I thought I wanted to be novelist. Then I thought I wanted to be novelist. Then I thought I wanted to be a playwright. But then I got a job as a a playwright. But then I got a job as a a playwright. But then I got a job as a police reporter in Chicago. And it was I police reporter in Chicago. And it was I police reporter in Chicago. And it was I came home with a story every day. Uh and came home with a story every day. Uh and came home with a story every day. Uh and so my personal life is kind of a jig so my personal life is kind of a jig so my personal life is kind of a jig jaggy story. My faith life is a bit of a jaggy story. My faith life is a bit of a jaggy story. My faith life is a bit of a jigjy story, but my career is a jigjy story, but my career is a jigjy story, but my career is a trajectory of pretty straight direction.

trajectory of pretty straight direction. trajectory of pretty straight direction. And I I was a newspaper columnist in And I I was a newspaper columnist in And I I was a newspaper columnist in college and now 40 years later I'm a college and now 40 years later I'm a college and now 40 years later I'm a newspaper columnist. So kind of boring. newspaper columnist. So kind of boring. newspaper columnist. So kind of boring. You just have a few more readers than You just have a few more readers than You just have a few more readers than when you were on the police beat. when you were on the police beat. when you were on the police beat. A few more readers, many more haters, A few more readers, many more haters, A few more readers, many more haters, but it's a pleasure that goes with the but it's a pleasure that goes with the but it's a pleasure that goes with the job. job. job. Yeah. So let's talk about those first, I Yeah. So let's talk about those first, I Yeah. So let's talk about those first, I guess, five hours, then. So you're up guess, five hours, then. So you're up guess, five hours, then. So you're up 8:00 a.m. You're at your desk. The world 8:00 a.m. You're at your desk. The world 8:00 a.m. You're at your desk. The world disappears. You've got no notifications. disappears. You've got no notifications. disappears. You've got no notifications. Your Fitbit thinks you're asleep and Your Fitbit thinks you're asleep and Your Fitbit thinks you're asleep and you're writing until around 1:00. That's you're writing until around 1:00. That's you're writing until around 1:00. That's kind of an Ernest Hemingway approach, kind of an Ernest Hemingway approach, kind of an Ernest Hemingway approach, right? When the room finally warms up, right? When the room finally warms up, right? When the room finally warms up, you might be done. And you're shooting you might be done. And you're shooting you might be done. And you're shooting for about 1,200 words. Did I hear you for about 1,200 words. Did I hear you for about 1,200 words. Did I hear you say? say? say? Yeah. I think all writers have a Yeah. I think all writers have a Yeah. I think all writers have a formula. My my favorite version of this formula. My my favorite version of this formula. My my favorite version of this is John Chver was a short story novelist is John Chver was a short story novelist is John Chver was a short story novelist and novelist in the 1950s and60s and he and novelist in the 1950s and60s and he and novelist in the 1950s and60s and he would get up in his New York apartment would get up in his New York apartment would get up in his New York apartment building, put on his one suit, take the building, put on his one suit, take the building, put on his one suit, take the elevator down to the basement of the elevator down to the basement of the elevator down to the basement of the building where he had an office, take building where he had an office, take building where he had an office, take off his suit right in his underwear, and off his suit right in his underwear, and off his suit right in his underwear, and then at 12:30 he would put back on his then at 12:30 he would put back on his then at 12:30 he would put back on his suit, get on the elevator, and go back suit, get on the elevator, and go back suit, get on the elevator, and go back upstairs and make himself lunch. And so upstairs and make himself lunch. And so upstairs and make himself lunch. And so that was his um attempt to uh define a that was his um attempt to uh define a that was his um attempt to uh define a little ritual and his attempt to pretend little ritual and his attempt to pretend little ritual and his attempt to pretend that he was a real worker because he put that he was a real worker because he put that he was a real worker because he put on a suit to go to work uh rather than on a suit to go to work uh rather than on a suit to go to work uh rather than writing in his underwear. Uh and so that writing in his underwear. Uh and so that writing in his underwear. Uh and so that everyone has that routine and my routine everyone has that routine and my routine everyone has that routine and my routine is only odd in the way I write. Uh, and is only odd in the way I write. Uh, and is only odd in the way I write. Uh, and so I have a pretty bad short-term memory

so I have a pretty bad short-term memory so I have a pretty bad short-term memory and so I have Post-it notes around me and so I have Post-it notes around me and so I have Post-it notes around me all the time and when a random thought all the time and when a random thought all the time and when a random thought comes to me, I write it down on a comes to me, I write it down on a comes to me, I write it down on a post-it note and then if I'm doing post-it note and then if I'm doing post-it note and then if I'm doing research, I'll xerox it and then mark up research, I'll xerox it and then mark up research, I'll xerox it and then mark up the pages. And so for me, the writing the pages. And so for me, the writing the pages. And so for me, the writing process is not tapping on a keyboard. process is not tapping on a keyboard. process is not tapping on a keyboard. It's taking maybe two or 30 hund pages It's taking maybe two or 30 hund pages It's taking maybe two or 30 hund pages of Post-it notes and Xerox pages and of Post-it notes and Xerox pages and of Post-it notes and Xerox pages and laying them out on my floor in piles. laying them out on my floor in piles. laying them out on my floor in piles. And each pile is a paragraph in my And each pile is a paragraph in my And each pile is a paragraph in my column or in a book. And so I may be column or in a book. And so I may be column or in a book. And so I may be only writing a thousand words, but I'll only writing a thousand words, but I'll only writing a thousand words, but I'll have 14 piles of pages on the floor. And have 14 piles of pages on the floor. And have 14 piles of pages on the floor. And I pick up a pile and I write that I pick up a pile and I write that I pick up a pile and I write that paragraph. I throw out the pages. I pick paragraph. I throw out the pages. I pick paragraph. I throw out the pages. I pick up the next pile and write the pages. So up the next pile and write the pages. So up the next pile and write the pages. So to me, the writing process is not to me, the writing process is not to me, the writing process is not tapping on the keyboard. It's crawling tapping on the keyboard. It's crawling tapping on the keyboard. It's crawling around on the floor and organizing my around on the floor and organizing my around on the floor and organizing my piles. And that's when the inspiration piles. And that's when the inspiration piles. And that's when the inspiration comes. And so every everybody has their comes. And so every everybody has their comes. And so every everybody has their Is it kind of like connecting the dots? Is it kind of like connecting the dots? Is it kind of like connecting the dots? Like what's in those piles? structure. Like what's in those piles? structure. Like what's in those piles? structure. It's about structure. It's getting the It's about structure. It's getting the It's about structure. It's getting the things in the right order. And I tell my things in the right order. And I tell my things in the right order. And I tell my college students, you know, your paper, college students, you know, your paper, college students, you know, your paper, if you don't have structure, your paper if you don't have structure, your paper if you don't have structure, your paper will jig jag off in a million different will jig jag off in a million different will jig jag off in a million different directions. And if you do have directions. And if you do have directions. And if you do have structure, then the writing comes fast structure, then the writing comes fast structure, then the writing comes fast and easy. So, I spend a lot of time and easy. So, I spend a lot of time and easy. So, I spend a lot of time getting things in the right order and getting things in the right order and getting things in the right order and then I have clarity in my mind. And then I have clarity in my mind. And then I have clarity in my mind. And somehow I just must have like a somehow I just must have like a somehow I just must have like a geographical brain. I need to see it geographical brain. I need to see it geographical brain. I need to see it physically laid out on the floor in physically laid out on the floor in physically laid out on the floor in front of me for me to really understand front of me for me to really understand front of me for me to really understand what I'm saying. So when you think about what I'm saying. So when you think about what I'm saying. So when you think about organization, I mean, I think one of the organization, I mean, I think one of the organization, I mean, I think one of the reasons you're so widely read is your reasons you're so widely read is your reasons you're so widely read is your articles are really compelling. So when articles are really compelling. So when articles are really compelling. So when you say, because we have a lot of of you say, because we have a lot of of you say, because we have a lot of of writers and speakers watching and

writers and speakers watching and writers and speakers watching and listening to this podcast, what do you listening to this podcast, what do you listening to this podcast, what do you mean by organization? Is that like mean by organization? Is that like mean by organization? Is that like logical flow? How how does that work? logical flow? How how does that work? logical flow? How how does that work? Sometimes it is logical flow. Like I Sometimes it is logical flow. Like I Sometimes it is logical flow. Like I wrote a very wonky column today on on wrote a very wonky column today on on wrote a very wonky column today on on the American economy. So it's just in the American economy. So it's just in the American economy. So it's just in what order are you putting these boring what order are you putting these boring what order are you putting these boring statistics together? so they make a statistics together? so they make a statistics together? so they make a coherent argument. But when I when I'm coherent argument. But when I when I'm coherent argument. But when I when I'm having trouble with a piece, the one having trouble with a piece, the one having trouble with a piece, the one thing I do is I don't try to fix it thing I do is I don't try to fix it thing I do is I don't try to fix it within the current structure. I start within the current structure. I start within the current structure. I start with a new structure. So I start with with a new structure. So I start with with a new structure. So I start with some point that currently was in the some point that currently was in the some point that currently was in the middle or toward the ends and I middle or toward the ends and I middle or toward the ends and I regurgitate it. So I don't try to fix it regurgitate it. So I don't try to fix it regurgitate it. So I don't try to fix it because once it's got a bad structure, because once it's got a bad structure, because once it's got a bad structure, you can't fix it. You just have to tear you can't fix it. You just have to tear you can't fix it. You just have to tear it down and start from scratch. The it down and start from scratch. The it down and start from scratch. The second default uh when I have problems second default uh when I have problems second default uh when I have problems with structure is go to narratives. So with structure is go to narratives. So with structure is go to narratives. So if if there's any doubt about it, I go I if if there's any doubt about it, I go I if if there's any doubt about it, I go I put things in chronological order. put things in chronological order. put things in chronological order. That's just the normal way we speak. And That's just the normal way we speak. And That's just the normal way we speak. And I've come generally to think we always I've come generally to think we always I've come generally to think we always want to get people in storytelling mode. want to get people in storytelling mode. want to get people in storytelling mode. And so I never ask people, "What do you And so I never ask people, "What do you And so I never ask people, "What do you think about this?" I ask, "How did you think about this?" I ask, "How did you think about this?" I ask, "How did you come to believe this?" And that way come to believe this?" And that way come to believe this?" And that way they're telling me a story about some they're telling me a story about some they're telling me a story about some person who shaped their experiences or person who shaped their experiences or person who shaped their experiences or some event that happened to them. And if some event that happened to them. And if some event that happened to them. And if you can get people in storytelling mode, you can get people in storytelling mode, you can get people in storytelling mode, they're much more natural and they're they're much more natural and they're they're much more natural and they're giving you a much more accurate version giving you a much more accurate version giving you a much more accurate version of who they are. So that's like when of who they are. So that's like when of who they are. So that's like when you're doing the research for something you're doing the research for something you're doing the research for something or research for a piece, you get them in or research for a piece, you get them in or research for a piece, you get them in storytelling mode and then you storytelling mode and then you storytelling mode and then you incorporate that in your article.

incorporate that in your article. incorporate that in your article. Yeah. So I'll I'll just ask people like Yeah. So I'll I'll just ask people like Yeah. So I'll I'll just ask people like well I always, you know, when I'm well I always, you know, when I'm well I always, you know, when I'm meeting strangers, I ask about their meeting strangers, I ask about their meeting strangers, I ask about their their childhoods. I travel a lot so I've their childhoods. I travel a lot so I've their childhoods. I travel a lot so I've probably been there. People love to talk probably been there. People love to talk probably been there. People love to talk about their childhoods. Uh people love about their childhoods. Uh people love about their childhoods. Uh people love to talk about um something they're proud to talk about um something they're proud to talk about um something they're proud of. So if they're wearing their son's of. So if they're wearing their son's of. So if they're wearing their son's hockey jersey or their team, then I ask hockey jersey or their team, then I ask hockey jersey or their team, then I ask about that and that's an icebreaker. Uh about that and that's an icebreaker. Uh about that and that's an icebreaker. Uh and then you know if you ask people just and then you know if you ask people just and then you know if you ask people just you know tell me about the high point of you know tell me about the high point of you know tell me about the high point of your life the low point of your life and your life the low point of your life and your life the low point of your life and the turning point of your life that's a the turning point of your life that's a the turning point of your life that's a very simple frame and everybody can do very simple frame and everybody can do very simple frame and everybody can do it and you might ask me well how many it and you might ask me well how many it and you might ask me well how many times in my life has somebody said times in my life has somebody said times in my life has somebody said that's too personal none of your damn that's too personal none of your damn that's too personal none of your damn business business business and the answer is zero I mean you ask and the answer is zero I mean you ask and the answer is zero I mean you ask people questions for a living and it people questions for a living and it people questions for a living and it turns out if you ask people about turns out if you ask people about turns out if you ask people about respectfully about their life story no respectfully about their life story no respectfully about their life story no one has ever asked them uh and so they one has ever asked them uh and so they one has ever asked them uh and so they they love telling you that story and they love telling you that story and they love telling you that story and then as you get to know people I find then as you get to know people I find then as you get to know people I find you I try to ask them questions that you I try to ask them questions that you I try to ask them questions that take them above their normal lives and take them above their normal lives and take them above their normal lives and get to them to see themselves from get to them to see themselves from get to them to see themselves from 30,000 ft. And so those are questions, 30,000 ft. And so those are questions, 30,000 ft. And so those are questions, you know, if if this um you know, if if this um you know, if if this um 5 years is a chapter in your life, 5 years is a chapter in your life, 5 years is a chapter in your life, what's the chapter about? Uh and so then what's the chapter about? Uh and so then what's the chapter about? Uh and so then they could say, well, this this 5year they could say, well, this this 5year they could say, well, this this 5year chunk of my life is about this. Uh if chunk of my life is about this. Uh if chunk of my life is about this. Uh if what crossroads are you at? Most of us what crossroads are you at? Most of us what crossroads are you at? Most of us are in the middle of some sort of are in the middle of some sort of are in the middle of some sort of transition. And so what crossroads are transition. And so what crossroads are transition. And so what crossroads are you at? One question you can ask is is you at? One question you can ask is is you at? One question you can ask is is uh how does fear show up in your life?

uh how does fear show up in your life? uh how does fear show up in your life? And we're all kind of ruled by fear in And we're all kind of ruled by fear in And we're all kind of ruled by fear in one way or another. And I had a buddy one way or another. And I had a buddy one way or another. And I had a buddy who was in a job interview and he asked who was in a job interview and he asked who was in a job interview and he asked he asked the job interviewer at the end he asked the job interviewer at the end he asked the job interviewer at the end of the interview, "What would you do if of the interview, "What would you do if of the interview, "What would you do if you weren't afraid?" And she started you weren't afraid?" And she started you weren't afraid?" And she started crying because she wouldn't be doing HR crying because she wouldn't be doing HR crying because she wouldn't be doing HR at that company, but too afraid to at that company, but too afraid to at that company, but too afraid to leave. And when I was teaching at Yale, leave. And when I was teaching at Yale, leave. And when I was teaching at Yale, I would ask my students, "What would you I would ask my students, "What would you I would ask my students, "What would you how what would you do if you weren't how what would you do if you weren't how what would you do if you weren't afraid?" And every year, one or two afraid?" And every year, one or two afraid?" And every year, one or two would come up quietly afterwards and would come up quietly afterwards and would come up quietly afterwards and say, "Well, I wouldn't be at Yale. It's say, "Well, I wouldn't be at Yale. It's say, "Well, I wouldn't be at Yale. It's a great school, but it's not for me. But a great school, but it's not for me. But a great school, but it's not for me. But I'm afraid to lose the prestige. And so I'm afraid to lose the prestige. And so I'm afraid to lose the prestige. And so these are questions that are deeper these are questions that are deeper these are questions that are deeper questions, and you have to know questions, and you have to know questions, and you have to know somebody. You have to build up trust somebody. You have to build up trust somebody. You have to build up trust before you ask these kinds of questions. before you ask these kinds of questions. before you ask these kinds of questions. But they turn an ordinary conversation But they turn an ordinary conversation But they turn an ordinary conversation into a compelling conversation. And if into a compelling conversation. And if into a compelling conversation. And if you're a journalist trying to get you're a journalist trying to get you're a journalist trying to get somebody's life, um, then you really get somebody's life, um, then you really get somebody's life, um, then you really get an aspect of them that you would not get an aspect of them that you would not get an aspect of them that you would not get if you said, "Well, what do you think of if you said, "Well, what do you think of if you said, "Well, what do you think of immigration policy?" immigration policy?" immigration policy?" Well, I was just going to say like a lot Well, I was just going to say like a lot Well, I was just going to say like a lot of that probably ends up on the cutting of that probably ends up on the cutting of that probably ends up on the cutting room floor, so to speak, right? like room floor, so to speak, right? like room floor, so to speak, right? like you're you're not writing a profile of you're you're not writing a profile of you're you're not writing a profile of somebody that you're interviewing about somebody that you're interviewing about somebody that you're interviewing about the economy. On the other hand, and I'm the economy. On the other hand, and I'm the economy. On the other hand, and I'm I'm reading in here, so please tell me I'm reading in here, so please tell me I'm reading in here, so please tell me if I'm misdirecting or misering. What I if I'm misdirecting or misering. What I if I'm misdirecting or misering. What I think you're getting is a way better think you're getting is a way better think you're getting is a way better story. Like you're getting that person story. Like you're getting that person story. Like you're getting that person to show up. And for them to show up for to show up. And for them to show up for to show up. And for them to show up for that, you know, those two or three lines that, you know, those two or three lines that, you know, those two or three lines that are going to be in your article, that are going to be in your article, that are going to be in your article, you've really made them feel special and you've really made them feel special and you've really made them feel special and valued rather than, oh, here's another valued rather than, oh, here's another valued rather than, oh, here's another reporter calling who wants to know where reporter calling who wants to know where reporter calling who wants to know where the economy's heading given interest the economy's heading given interest the economy's heading given interest rates.

rates. rates. Yeah. Also, it's just a better way to Yeah. Also, it's just a better way to Yeah. Also, it's just a better way to communicate with readers. Uh, you know, communicate with readers. Uh, you know, communicate with readers. Uh, you know, Jesus talked in parables and guess what? Jesus talked in parables and guess what? Jesus talked in parables and guess what? He knew what he was doing. Uh and so so He knew what he was doing. Uh and so so He knew what he was doing. Uh and so so you know I think it was Parker Palmer you know I think it was Parker Palmer you know I think it was Parker Palmer who said I try to tell little stories who said I try to tell little stories who said I try to tell little stories that communicate big things. And so for that communicate big things. And so for that communicate big things. And so for example I if people ask me like why does example I if people ask me like why does example I if people ask me like why does some some people support Donald Trump some some people support Donald Trump some some people support Donald Trump and I talked to a lot of people who and I talked to a lot of people who and I talked to a lot of people who support Donald Trump including members support Donald Trump including members support Donald Trump including members of my own family. But one example came of my own family. But one example came of my own family. But one example came to me years ago, maybe seven years ago. to me years ago, maybe seven years ago. to me years ago, maybe seven years ago. I was in North Dakota and I met a guy I was in North Dakota and I met a guy I was in North Dakota and I met a guy who was 70 and he was a big Trump who was 70 and he was a big Trump who was 70 and he was a big Trump supporter and I said, "How'd you come to supporter and I said, "How'd you come to supporter and I said, "How'd you come to believe, you know, come there?" And he believe, you know, come there?" And he believe, you know, come there?" And he said, "Let me tell you about the best said, "Let me tell you about the best said, "Let me tell you about the best day of my life. It happened 35 years ago day of my life. It happened 35 years ago day of my life. It happened 35 years ago and I was about 35 at the time and I was and I was about 35 at the time and I was and I was about 35 at the time and I was the foreman for a section of a plant the foreman for a section of a plant the foreman for a section of a plant that made refrigerator units, the kind that made refrigerator units, the kind that made refrigerator units, the kind that go on buildings, office buildings. that go on buildings, office buildings. that go on buildings, office buildings. and they changed the technology in the and they changed the technology in the and they changed the technology in the plant and they laid me off because I plant and they laid me off because I plant and they laid me off because I wasn't qualified to work there anymore. wasn't qualified to work there anymore. wasn't qualified to work there anymore. And so I thought I'd just sneak away, no And so I thought I'd just sneak away, no And so I thought I'd just sneak away, no fuss. And so I packed up my stuff in a fuss. And so I packed up my stuff in a fuss. And so I packed up my stuff in a box in my little office and I opened the box in my little office and I opened the box in my little office and I opened the office door and there was a line, a office door and there was a line, a office door and there was a line, a double line of 3,600 people, all the double line of 3,600 people, all the double line of 3,600 people, all the employees in the plant and they formed a employees in the plant and they formed a employees in the plant and they formed a double line from his office door through double line from his office door through double line from his office door through the plant through the parking lot to the the plant through the parking lot to the the plant through the parking lot to the garage to the park his car door and he garage to the park his car door and he garage to the park his car door and he walked through a double line of people walked through a double line of people walked through a double line of people applauding him just they wanted to show applauding him just they wanted to show applauding him just they wanted to show him what a good person he had been and him what a good person he had been and him what a good person he had been and they were going to miss him and he told they were going to miss him and he told they were going to miss him and he told me that was the best day of my life and me that was the best day of my life and me that was the best day of my life and every day every job I've had has been every day every job I've had has been every day every job I've had has been worse for lower pay, for less secure worse for lower pay, for less secure worse for lower pay, for less secure hours. My mother-in-law is 99. We can

hours. My mother-in-law is 99. We can hours. My mother-in-law is 99. We can barely leave the house cuz we have to barely leave the house cuz we have to barely leave the house cuz we have to take care of her 24/7. And he so he take care of her 24/7. And he so he take care of her 24/7. And he so he said, "My job is my life has gotten said, "My job is my life has gotten said, "My job is my life has gotten worse for 35 years. So that guy Donald worse for 35 years. So that guy Donald worse for 35 years. So that guy Donald Trump is offering a change. And that's Trump is offering a change. And that's Trump is offering a change. And that's what I need." And you may not agree with what I need." And you may not agree with what I need." And you may not agree with him about the way he votes. So you may him about the way he votes. So you may him about the way he votes. So you may agree with him, but you get where he's agree with him, but you get where he's agree with him, but you get where he's coming from. And so if just one little coming from. And so if just one little coming from. And so if just one little story can give you an important insight story can give you an important insight story can give you an important insight into the way why a lot of people into the way why a lot of people into the way why a lot of people supported one candidate or another. supported one candidate or another. supported one candidate or another. Sounds like a lot of empathy. It sounds Sounds like a lot of empathy. It sounds Sounds like a lot of empathy. It sounds like understanding because I mean you've like understanding because I mean you've like understanding because I mean you've had different opinions about Trump over had different opinions about Trump over had different opinions about Trump over the years. But I think you know one of the years. But I think you know one of the years. But I think you know one of the divides in the US where most the the divides in the US where most the the divides in the US where most the listeners this podcast are is you assume listeners this podcast are is you assume listeners this podcast are is you assume the other side whatever the other side the other side whatever the other side the other side whatever the other side happens to be with your perspective happens to be with your perspective happens to be with your perspective doesn't make any sense. But to them it's doesn't make any sense. But to them it's doesn't make any sense. But to them it's completely logical. completely logical. completely logical. Yeah. I've found I have a lot of friends Yeah. I've found I have a lot of friends Yeah. I've found I have a lot of friends who were Trump supporters and I run into who were Trump supporters and I run into who were Trump supporters and I run into a lot of people. There's a guy at the a lot of people. There's a guy at the a lot of people. There's a guy at the gym who's always wearing a Trump shirt gym who's always wearing a Trump shirt gym who's always wearing a Trump shirt and he jokes with me about how much I and he jokes with me about how much I and he jokes with me about how much I criticize Trump. And I found it very criticize Trump. And I found it very criticize Trump. And I found it very easy to be strongly critical of Donald easy to be strongly critical of Donald easy to be strongly critical of Donald Trump on a lot of different fronts and Trump on a lot of different fronts and Trump on a lot of different fronts and also have no animosity at all to people also have no animosity at all to people also have no animosity at all to people who support him. Uh and and my belief is who support him. Uh and and my belief is who support him. Uh and and my belief is a I'm not going to lose a friendship a I'm not going to lose a friendship a I'm not going to lose a friendship over politics. Uh politics is just not over politics. Uh politics is just not over politics. Uh politics is just not that important. Second, I think Trump is that important. Second, I think Trump is that important. Second, I think Trump is the wrong answer to the right question.

the wrong answer to the right question. the wrong answer to the right question. I think a lot of the people who support I think a lot of the people who support I think a lot of the people who support Donald Trump support him because there's Donald Trump support him because there's Donald Trump support him because there's something really wrong in their lives something really wrong in their lives something really wrong in their lives and something really wrong that they see and something really wrong that they see and something really wrong that they see in America. And so they're making the in America. And so they're making the in America. And so they're making the best effort they can to create some kind best effort they can to create some kind best effort they can to create some kind of change. And I may not agree with of change. And I may not agree with of change. And I may not agree with that, but uh it's not going to get in my that, but uh it's not going to get in my that, but uh it's not going to get in my way of trying to understand them. And way of trying to understand them. And way of trying to understand them. And one of the virtues about being a one of the virtues about being a one of the virtues about being a journalist is it trains you just to journalist is it trains you just to journalist is it trains you just to understand. Don't judge. And so once I understand. Don't judge. And so once I understand. Don't judge. And so once I was in Jordan, I was covering the Middle was in Jordan, I was covering the Middle was in Jordan, I was covering the Middle East and there had just been a hor and I East and there had just been a hor and I East and there had just been a hor and I was having dinner with a group of mostly was having dinner with a group of mostly was having dinner with a group of mostly elderly Jordanian men and if you've elderly Jordanian men and if you've elderly Jordanian men and if you've covered the Middle East and you go to covered the Middle East and you go to covered the Middle East and you go to Arab countries, you know the hospitality Arab countries, you know the hospitality Arab countries, you know the hospitality there is through the roof. They're there is through the roof. They're there is through the roof. They're unbelievably warm and they brought out unbelievably warm and they brought out unbelievably warm and they brought out their granddaughters to kiss our cheeks their granddaughters to kiss our cheeks their granddaughters to kiss our cheeks our g the guests. And then in the middle our g the guests. And then in the middle our g the guests. And then in the middle of a meal, I asked the elderly gentlemen of a meal, I asked the elderly gentlemen of a meal, I asked the elderly gentlemen who were all judges and involved in the who were all judges and involved in the who were all judges and involved in the judicial system there in Jordan. You judicial system there in Jordan. You judicial system there in Jordan. You know, there's just been this mass murder know, there's just been this mass murder know, there's just been this mass murder at a disate called Dolphinarium in Tel at a disate called Dolphinarium in Tel at a disate called Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv. And some terrorists shot and Aviv. And some terrorists shot and Aviv. And some terrorists shot and murdered 19 Israeli teenage girls. And I murdered 19 Israeli teenage girls. And I murdered 19 Israeli teenage girls. And I said to them, "What do you think? Uh do said to them, "What do you think? Uh do said to them, "What do you think? Uh do you support that kind of stuff? You you support that kind of stuff? You you support that kind of stuff? You know, shooting teenage girls?" And they know, shooting teenage girls?" And they know, shooting teenage girls?" And they all did. They all said, "Yes, all did. They all said, "Yes, all did. They all said, "Yes, absolutely. those young women were going absolutely. those young women were going absolutely. those young women were going to be breeding future Israeli soldiers.

to be breeding future Israeli soldiers. to be breeding future Israeli soldiers. Totally legitimate to kill them. And Totally legitimate to kill them. And Totally legitimate to kill them. And that's a point of view, believe me, I do that's a point of view, believe me, I do that's a point of view, believe me, I do not share. not share. not share. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's okay to shoot teenage I don't think it's okay to shoot teenage I don't think it's okay to shoot teenage girls. But my job was just there to girls. But my job was just there to girls. But my job was just there to understand them uh and to communicate understand them uh and to communicate understand them uh and to communicate the way they saw the world. And the way they saw the world. And the way they saw the world. And journalism is good training in that. Uh journalism is good training in that. Uh journalism is good training in that. Uh I ran across a little anecdote. Here's I ran across a little anecdote. Here's I ran across a little anecdote. Here's one of my little stories by a guy named one of my little stories by a guy named one of my little stories by a guy named Rabbi Rabbi Irwin Kula. and he had a Rabbi Rabbi Irwin Kula. and he had a Rabbi Rabbi Irwin Kula. and he had a congregant who's had a brain injury and congregant who's had a brain injury and congregant who's had a brain injury and sometimes she just fell to the ground. sometimes she just fell to the ground. sometimes she just fell to the ground. And she said, "People rush to help me up And she said, "People rush to help me up And she said, "People rush to help me up because they're so uncomfortable seeing because they're so uncomfortable seeing because they're so uncomfortable seeing an adult lying on the floor. But at an adult lying on the floor. But at an adult lying on the floor. But at those moments, what I really need is for those moments, what I really need is for those moments, what I really need is for somebody to get on the ground with me." somebody to get on the ground with me." somebody to get on the ground with me." And that to me is a very good definition And that to me is a very good definition And that to me is a very good definition of of of empathy. It's being willing to of of of empathy. It's being willing to of of of empathy. It's being willing to get on the ground with somebody else, get on the ground with somebody else, get on the ground with somebody else, even if it feels uncomfortable for you. even if it feels uncomfortable for you. even if it feels uncomfortable for you. And believe me, I don't always live up And believe me, I don't always live up And believe me, I don't always live up to that standard, but to that standard, but to that standard, but It's what I shoot for anyway. It's what I shoot for anyway. It's what I shoot for anyway. You know, it's interesting You know, it's interesting You know, it's interesting because you're telling those stories and because you're telling those stories and because you're telling those stories and it really resonates with me, David. And it really resonates with me, David. And it really resonates with me, David. And yet that seems to be what's draining out yet that seems to be what's draining out yet that seems to be what's draining out of the bathtub in our culture right now of the bathtub in our culture right now of the bathtub in our culture right now is empathy, right? Like we just don't is empathy, right? Like we just don't is empathy, right? Like we just don't see a lot of it publicly. We don't see see a lot of it publicly. We don't see see a lot of it publicly. We don't see it in the diet tribe. We don't see it in it in the diet tribe. We don't see it in it in the diet tribe. We don't see it in our politics. We don't see it in our our politics. We don't see it in our our politics. We don't see it in our journalism, so to speak. Um when when journalism, so to speak. Um when when journalism, so to speak. Um when when you think about you think about you think about remedies for the leaders who are remedies for the leaders who are remedies for the leaders who are listening to this conversation, listening to this conversation, listening to this conversation, what are some ways that you think we can what are some ways that you think we can what are some ways that you think we can practically restore empathy and civility

practically restore empathy and civility practically restore empathy and civility into the dialogue? Like you're doing into the dialogue? Like you're doing into the dialogue? Like you're doing that privately, but you're also that privately, but you're also that privately, but you're also attempting to do that publicly. What attempting to do that publicly. What attempting to do that publicly. What advice do you have for us on on that advice do you have for us on on that advice do you have for us on on that front? front? front? Yeah. Well, I my little attempt to do Yeah. Well, I my little attempt to do Yeah. Well, I my little attempt to do something about this was to write this something about this was to write this something about this was to write this book a couple years ago called How to book a couple years ago called How to book a couple years ago called How to Know a Person. And the subtitle is the Know a Person. And the subtitle is the Know a Person. And the subtitle is the art of seeing others deeply and being art of seeing others deeply and being art of seeing others deeply and being deeply seen. And one of the thesis of deeply seen. And one of the thesis of deeply seen. And one of the thesis of that book is that over the last two that book is that over the last two that book is that over the last two generations or so, we have just not generations or so, we have just not generations or so, we have just not taught coming generations how to treat taught coming generations how to treat taught coming generations how to treat each other with kindness and each other with kindness and each other with kindness and consideration and respect. And these are consideration and respect. And these are consideration and respect. And these are just basic social skills like how do you just basic social skills like how do you just basic social skills like how do you sit with someone who's grieving? How do sit with someone who's grieving? How do sit with someone who's grieving? How do you sit with someone who's depressed? you sit with someone who's depressed? you sit with someone who's depressed? How do you break up with someone without How do you break up with someone without How do you break up with someone without crushing their heart? How do you offer crushing their heart? How do you offer crushing their heart? How do you offer criticism in a caring way? Uh just basic criticism in a caring way? Uh just basic criticism in a caring way? Uh just basic skills like how do how do you end a skills like how do how do you end a skills like how do how do you end a conversation gracefully? conversation gracefully? conversation gracefully? Like I um nobody ever taught me that. I Like I um nobody ever taught me that. I Like I um nobody ever taught me that. I was at my fifth high school reunion was at my fifth high school reunion was at my fifth high school reunion years ago and my only move in a cocktail years ago and my only move in a cocktail years ago and my only move in a cocktail party setting to end a conversation was party setting to end a conversation was party setting to end a conversation was to say, "Well, I'm going to go to the to say, "Well, I'm going to go to the to say, "Well, I'm going to go to the bar and get another drink." So So after bar and get another drink." So So after bar and get another drink." So So after my 20 minutes of my high school reunion, my 20 minutes of my high school reunion, my 20 minutes of my high school reunion, I'm so drunk I have to leave the reunion I'm so drunk I have to leave the reunion I'm so drunk I have to leave the reunion cuz I'd gone to the bar six times to get cuz I'd gone to the bar six times to get cuz I'd gone to the bar six times to get a drink just so I could end a a drink just so I could end a a drink just so I could end a conversation. But, you know, finally I conversation. But, you know, finally I conversation. But, you know, finally I just read like what you should say is um just read like what you should say is um just read like what you should say is um Carrie, I really enjoyed spending time Carrie, I really enjoyed spending time Carrie, I really enjoyed spending time with you. I particularly liked what you with you. I particularly liked what you with you. I particularly liked what you said about your childhood. That was said about your childhood. That was said about your childhood. That was fascinating to me. It's been a pleasure fascinating to me. It's been a pleasure fascinating to me. It's been a pleasure being with you. And all you got to do is being with you. And all you got to do is being with you. And all you got to do is like thank them, mention something like thank them, mention something like thank them, mention something interesting they said and that's a interesting they said and that's a interesting they said and that's a grateful way to end a conversation. But grateful way to end a conversation. But grateful way to end a conversation. But we have not taught people these skills.

we have not taught people these skills. we have not taught people these skills. And I I had a woman who was a student of And I I had a woman who was a student of And I I had a woman who was a student of mine and she said, "I've had four mine and she said, "I've had four mine and she said, "I've had four boyfriends in my life and all of them boyfriends in my life and all of them boyfriends in my life and all of them ghosted me at the end. They all just ghosted me at the end. They all just ghosted me at the end. They all just disappeared. And so, of course, I think disappeared. And so, of course, I think disappeared. And so, of course, I think the next guy's going to ghost me. Of the next guy's going to ghost me. Of the next guy's going to ghost me. Of course I'm distrustful. course I'm distrustful. course I'm distrustful. And nobody had taught those kids, the And nobody had taught those kids, the And nobody had taught those kids, the guys, that a you have to have that guys, that a you have to have that guys, that a you have to have that breakup conversation, breakup conversation, breakup conversation, and b here's how to do it. and b here's how to do it. and b here's how to do it. Uh, and so, uh, I just think basic Uh, and so, uh, I just think basic Uh, and so, uh, I just think basic social skills are part of the problem of social skills are part of the problem of social skills are part of the problem of why we're not connected with one why we're not connected with one why we're not connected with one another. another. another. Thinking about the big societal shifts, Thinking about the big societal shifts, Thinking about the big societal shifts, you've been on the beat, so to speak, you've been on the beat, so to speak, you've been on the beat, so to speak, for four decades, and what have you seen for four decades, and what have you seen for four decades, and what have you seen change the most? I know you've written change the most? I know you've written change the most? I know you've written numerous pieces on some of the shifts numerous pieces on some of the shifts numerous pieces on some of the shifts you've seen in our politic, in our you've seen in our politic, in our you've seen in our politic, in our culture, in the way we treat each other. culture, in the way we treat each other. culture, in the way we treat each other. But when you look, you know, and we have But when you look, you know, and we have But when you look, you know, and we have a lot of young leaders listening, you a lot of young leaders listening, you a lot of young leaders listening, you know, who don't really remember the 80s, know, who don't really remember the 80s, know, who don't really remember the 80s, don't remember the '9s, but when you don't remember the '9s, but when you don't remember the '9s, but when you look back over my lifetime, your look back over my lifetime, your look back over my lifetime, your lifetime, we're similar age and stage. lifetime, we're similar age and stage. lifetime, we're similar age and stage. David, uh, what do you think has shifted David, uh, what do you think has shifted David, uh, what do you think has shifted the most in our generation? I think the most in our generation? I think the most in our generation? I think we're in the middle of and couple we're in the middle of and couple we're in the middle of and couple decades into really two and a half decades into really two and a half decades into really two and a half decades into some sort of spiritual and decades into some sort of spiritual and decades into some sort of spiritual and relational crisis and it shows up as the relational crisis and it shows up as the relational crisis and it shows up as the mental health rising the rise 30% rise mental health rising the rise 30% rise mental health rising the rise 30% rise in suicide. The number of people who say in suicide. The number of people who say in suicide. The number of people who say they have no close friends is up by they have no close friends is up by they have no close friends is up by four-fold since 2000. The number of four-fold since 2000. The number of four-fold since 2000. The number of Americans who rate themselves in the Americans who rate themselves in the Americans who rate themselves in the happy lowest happiness category is up by happy lowest happiness category is up by happy lowest happiness category is up by half since 2000. Uh 36% of Americans say half since 2000. Uh 36% of Americans say half since 2000. Uh 36% of Americans say they're lonely. 45% of high school they're lonely. 45% of high school they're lonely. 45% of high school students say they're persistently students say they're persistently students say they're persistently hopeless and despondent. And the most hopeless and despondent. And the most hopeless and despondent. And the most important stat there is social trust.

important stat there is social trust. important stat there is social trust. When I was a kid, and that would have When I was a kid, and that would have When I was a kid, and that would have been in the 70s or so, um, been in the 70s or so, um, been in the 70s or so, um, if you ask neighbor people, do do you if you ask neighbor people, do do you if you ask neighbor people, do do you trust your neighbors? The people right trust your neighbors? The people right trust your neighbors? The people right around you, are they trustworthy? 60% around you, are they trustworthy? 60% around you, are they trustworthy? 60% said yes. Now, now we're down to 30%. said yes. Now, now we're down to 30%. said yes. Now, now we're down to 30%. And 19% of millennial and Gen Z, the And 19% of millennial and Gen Z, the And 19% of millennial and Gen Z, the younger you go now, the more distrusting younger you go now, the more distrusting younger you go now, the more distrusting people are. And if somebody presented people are. And if somebody presented people are. And if somebody presented Gen Z with this statement, do you agree Gen Z with this statement, do you agree Gen Z with this statement, do you agree with the following? most people are with the following? most people are with the following? most people are selfish and out to get you and 72% of selfish and out to get you and 72% of selfish and out to get you and 72% of Gen Z said yes I agree with that that's Gen Z said yes I agree with that that's Gen Z said yes I agree with that that's the way the world is and I used to ask the way the world is and I used to ask the way the world is and I used to ask my students did like do you think human my students did like do you think human my students did like do you think human nature is fundamentally good or nature is fundamentally good or nature is fundamentally good or fundamentally bad and there was a fundamentally bad and there was a fundamentally bad and there was a plurality in every class it said plurality in every class it said plurality in every class it said fundamentally bad people are basically fundamentally bad people are basically fundamentally bad people are basically selfish and that's just a shift in tone selfish and that's just a shift in tone selfish and that's just a shift in tone of our public life distrust uh of our public life distrust uh of our public life distrust uh separation animosity and I I think a lot separation animosity and I I think a lot separation animosity and I I think a lot of the distemper in our politics flows of the distemper in our politics flows of the distemper in our politics flows from that distemper and in in our from that distemper and in in our from that distemper and in in our churches. I I have a friend who says, churches. I I have a friend who says, churches. I I have a friend who says, you know, the spiritually healthy people you know, the spiritually healthy people you know, the spiritually healthy people in my congregation are quiet and laying in my congregation are quiet and laying in my congregation are quiet and laying low and the spiritually unhealthy people low and the spiritually unhealthy people low and the spiritually unhealthy people are loud and demanding things. Uh and so are loud and demanding things. Uh and so are loud and demanding things. Uh and so that that's just part of the fabric of that that's just part of the fabric of that that's just part of the fabric of all sorts of organizations and it's made all sorts of organizations and it's made all sorts of organizations and it's made it so much harder to be a leader uh it so much harder to be a leader uh it so much harder to be a leader uh these days and also much harder to be a these days and also much harder to be a these days and also much harder to be a follower. By the way, uh, one of the follower. By the way, uh, one of the follower. By the way, uh, one of the tough things about being young, and I tough things about being young, and I tough things about being young, and I was up at Williams College not long ago, was up at Williams College not long ago, was up at Williams College not long ago, and one of the students there, a very and one of the students there, a very and one of the students there, a very bright kid, said, um, we're the most bright kid, said, um, we're the most bright kid, said, um, we're the most rejected generation. And what he meant rejected generation. And what he meant rejected generation. And what he meant by that is if you apply to like

by that is if you apply to like by that is if you apply to like competitive schools, like you apply to competitive schools, like you apply to competitive schools, like you apply to Harvard, 96% of the people apply get Harvard, 96% of the people apply get Harvard, 96% of the people apply get rejected. If you apply to a summer rejected. If you apply to a summer rejected. If you apply to a summer internship, I ran into a woman who internship, I ran into a woman who internship, I ran into a woman who applied to 40 and got rejected by 39. I applied to 40 and got rejected by 39. I applied to 40 and got rejected by 39. I ran into some other students who applied ran into some other students who applied ran into some other students who applied to um they said I have to apply to 150 to um they said I have to apply to 150 to um they said I have to apply to 150 to 250 internships to make sure I can to 250 internships to make sure I can to 250 internships to make sure I can get one for each summer and the rest are get one for each summer and the rest are get one for each summer and the rest are rejected. Then you get on campus and you rejected. Then you get on campus and you rejected. Then you get on campus and you think you're going to join like the think you're going to join like the think you're going to join like the little club that helps lead student little club that helps lead student little club that helps lead student tours. Well, at Harvard that little club tours. Well, at Harvard that little club tours. Well, at Harvard that little club rejects 88% of the applicants. And so rejects 88% of the applicants. And so rejects 88% of the applicants. And so this is just rejection up and down the this is just rejection up and down the this is just rejection up and down the line. And I'm not even talking about line. And I'm not even talking about line. And I'm not even talking about what I think is the harshest rejections. what I think is the harshest rejections. what I think is the harshest rejections. When you get out of school, whether it's When you get out of school, whether it's When you get out of school, whether it's high school or college, and you're high school or college, and you're high school or college, and you're applying online for jobs, you're in my applying online for jobs, you're in my applying online for jobs, you're in my view lost in the seventh circle of view lost in the seventh circle of view lost in the seventh circle of indeed hell cuz you send out hund indeed hell cuz you send out hund indeed hell cuz you send out hund hundreds of applications. You don't know hundreds of applications. You don't know hundreds of applications. You don't know if anybody's reading them. Maybe some if anybody's reading them. Maybe some if anybody's reading them. Maybe some algorithm is going through them. And you algorithm is going through them. And you algorithm is going through them. And you have to you just super hard to get a job have to you just super hard to get a job have to you just super hard to get a job now. And I had one young woman who was now. And I had one young woman who was now. And I had one young woman who was in the middle of this process and she in the middle of this process and she in the middle of this process and she said, "Sometimes I wish I was young in said, "Sometimes I wish I was young in said, "Sometimes I wish I was young in the '9s. It would have been so much the '9s. It would have been so much the '9s. It would have been so much easier." And I told her, well, I was easier." And I told her, well, I was easier." And I told her, well, I was kind of young in the 90s and it was it kind of young in the 90s and it was it kind of young in the 90s and it was it was a lot easier. And so actually, was a lot easier. And so actually, was a lot easier. And so actually, it was easier. No, it's funny. Scott it was easier. No, it's funny. Scott it was easier. No, it's funny. Scott Galloway has been on this show and we Galloway has been on this show and we Galloway has been on this show and we talked about a very similar thing or talked about a very similar thing or talked about a very similar thing or I've heard him talk about a very similar I've heard him talk about a very similar I've heard him talk about a very similar thing, David. Like, you know, I was in thing, David. Like, you know, I was in thing, David. Like, you know, I was in school in the 80s and the 90s, school school in the 80s and the 90s, school school in the 80s and the 90s, school being university, and like I don't know being university, and like I don't know being university, and like I don't know that I would get in today. And it was that I would get in today. And it was that I would get in today. And it was just a lower playing field.

just a lower playing field. just a lower playing field. Yeah. uh when I went to the University Yeah. uh when I went to the University Yeah. uh when I went to the University of Chicago uh they accepted 90 74% of of Chicago uh they accepted 90 74% of of Chicago uh they accepted 90 74% of applicants which is good because I was a applicants which is good because I was a applicants which is good because I was a very C student in high school and uh and very C student in high school and uh and very C student in high school and uh and now in they don't accept 74% they accept now in they don't accept 74% they accept now in they don't accept 74% they accept 4%. And so the competition at all these 4%. And so the competition at all these 4%. And so the competition at all these places has just gotten phenomenal. And places has just gotten phenomenal. And places has just gotten phenomenal. And when I teach, one of the joys of when I teach, one of the joys of when I teach, one of the joys of teaching is not only was I not as teaching is not only was I not as teaching is not only was I not as talented as all my students are, nobody talented as all my students are, nobody talented as all my students are, nobody was as talented as all the students are. was as talented as all the students are. was as talented as all the students are. So on the one hand, they've become super So on the one hand, they've become super So on the one hand, they've become super high achievers. On the other hand, some high achievers. On the other hand, some high achievers. On the other hand, some of them have turned into little of them have turned into little of them have turned into little automatons of achievement who are just automatons of achievement who are just automatons of achievement who are just doing they're just phenomenal at jumping doing they're just phenomenal at jumping doing they're just phenomenal at jumping through the next hoop. But when they get through the next hoop. But when they get through the next hoop. But when they get out in the world and they have to chart out in the world and they have to chart out in the world and they have to chart their own course and there are no more their own course and there are no more their own course and there are no more hoops, they they're lost. Uh and so hoops, they they're lost. Uh and so hoops, they they're lost. Uh and so we've like I met a kid recently who he we've like I met a kid recently who he we've like I met a kid recently who he was offered a job by a consulting firm was offered a job by a consulting firm was offered a job by a consulting firm at 19 sophomore year. He hadn't figured at 19 sophomore year. He hadn't figured at 19 sophomore year. He hadn't figured out what he wanted to do with his life. out what he wanted to do with his life. out what he wanted to do with his life. He was just desperate to not be He was just desperate to not be He was just desperate to not be rejected. So he grabbed the job at 19 rejected. So he grabbed the job at 19 rejected. So he grabbed the job at 19 and now maybe his love is in being a and now maybe his love is in being a and now maybe his love is in being a consultant. But maybe he'll be doing consultant. But maybe he'll be doing consultant. But maybe he'll be doing PowerPoint decks for his 20s and he'll PowerPoint decks for his 20s and he'll PowerPoint decks for his 20s and he'll hate it. But he he he he didn't want to hate it. But he he he he didn't want to hate it. But he he he he didn't want to have the period of like wandering to have the period of like wandering to have the period of like wandering to figure out who I am, but that period is figure out who I am, but that period is figure out who I am, but that period is hard but necessary.

hard but necessary. hard but necessary. What else has changed in your lifetime What else has changed in your lifetime What else has changed in your lifetime that you're really noticing? Our trust, that you're really noticing? Our trust, that you're really noticing? Our trust, our social connections? our social connections? our social connections? Yeah, I mean, I cover politics, so um Yeah, I mean, I cover politics, so um Yeah, I mean, I cover politics, so um you know, I used to I was given a good you know, I used to I was given a good you know, I used to I was given a good piece of advice when I first got this piece of advice when I first got this piece of advice when I first got this job of the times to interview three job of the times to interview three job of the times to interview three politicians every day. And I did that politicians every day. And I did that politicians every day. And I did that for many years. And I can tell you for many years. And I can tell you for many years. And I can tell you they're all emotional freaks of one sort they're all emotional freaks of one sort they're all emotional freaks of one sort or another. But uh but uh but I I felt or another. But uh but uh but I I felt or another. But uh but uh but I I felt they really they did know each other in they really they did know each other in they really they did know each other in the Senate in particular and that's the Senate in particular and that's the Senate in particular and that's gone. That the the to watch institutions gone. That the the to watch institutions gone. That the the to watch institutions like the US Congress totally fall into like the US Congress totally fall into like the US Congress totally fall into uh incompetence has been sobering. Then uh incompetence has been sobering. Then uh incompetence has been sobering. Then the biggest change is I I for I was a the biggest change is I I for I was a the biggest change is I I for I was a foreign correspondent for the Wall foreign correspondent for the Wall foreign correspondent for the Wall Street Journal in the '9s and I lived Street Journal in the '9s and I lived Street Journal in the '9s and I lived abroad and I covered uh the end of abroad and I covered uh the end of abroad and I covered uh the end of aparthide in South Africa. I covered the aparthide in South Africa. I covered the aparthide in South Africa. I covered the end of the Soviet Union. I covered the end of the Soviet Union. I covered the end of the Soviet Union. I covered the uh the reunification of Germany. I uh the reunification of Germany. I uh the reunification of Germany. I covered the Oslo peace process in the covered the Oslo peace process in the covered the Oslo peace process in the Middle East. So I covered good news for Middle East. So I covered good news for Middle East. So I covered good news for five years. five years. five years. Yeah, it was quite the decade. Yeah, it was quite the decade. Yeah, it was quite the decade. And you know, I was remember I was in And you know, I was remember I was in And you know, I was remember I was in Russia in Moscow and there was a Soviet Russia in Moscow and there was a Soviet Russia in Moscow and there was a Soviet at the end of the Soviet Union, the at the end of the Soviet Union, the at the end of the Soviet Union, the Soviets staged a coup. They wanted to Soviets staged a coup. They wanted to Soviets staged a coup. They wanted to get the country back from the Democrat get the country back from the Democrat get the country back from the Democrat Boris Yeltson. And Yeltson stood in Boris Yeltson. And Yeltson stood in Boris Yeltson. And Yeltson stood in front of the Russian Parliament building front of the Russian Parliament building front of the Russian Parliament building on a tank and he basically told the on a tank and he basically told the on a tank and he basically told the Soviets, "Shoot me. I dare you." And I Soviets, "Shoot me. I dare you." And I Soviets, "Shoot me. I dare you." And I saw the tanks rolling through Moscow. So saw the tanks rolling through Moscow. So saw the tanks rolling through Moscow. So I rushed over to the Russian Parliament I rushed over to the Russian Parliament I rushed over to the Russian Parliament building where Yeltson was. And I met an building where Yeltson was. And I met an building where Yeltson was. And I met an old lady named Valentina Kosva. She was old lady named Valentina Kosva. She was old lady named Valentina Kosva. She was like 93. And so again talking about life like 93. And so again talking about life like 93. And so again talking about life stories. I asked her a life story. And stories. I asked her a life story. And stories. I asked her a life story. And it turned out she had grown up in the

it turned out she had grown up in the it turned out she had grown up in the household of the Zar before the household of the Zar before the household of the Zar before the revolution. She when the revolution revolution. She when the revolution revolution. She when the revolution happened she was lined up to be executed happened she was lined up to be executed happened she was lined up to be executed by the the reds, the communists. And her by the the reds, the communists. And her by the the reds, the communists. And her mother begged the executioners not to mother begged the executioners not to mother begged the executioners not to shoot her and they didn't. So she lived. shoot her and they didn't. So she lived. shoot her and they didn't. So she lived. Then her first husband was disappeared Then her first husband was disappeared Then her first husband was disappeared and went off to the gulag in Siberia in and went off to the gulag in Siberia in and went off to the gulag in Siberia in the 1930s and she never saw him again. the 1930s and she never saw him again. the 1930s and she never saw him again. Her two sons were killed in the bottle Her two sons were killed in the bottle Her two sons were killed in the bottle of Stalenrad bayonetted by the Nazis. of Stalenrad bayonetted by the Nazis. of Stalenrad bayonetted by the Nazis. Her second husband in the 1950s in the Her second husband in the 1950s in the Her second husband in the 1950s in the middle of the night they raided her middle of the night they raided her middle of the night they raided her apartment, they took him away. She never apartment, they took him away. She never apartment, they took him away. She never saw him again. She was a member of the saw him again. She was a member of the saw him again. She was a member of the Kelmik people which is a Muslim Kelmik people which is a Muslim Kelmik people which is a Muslim community in Russia and she was sent community in Russia and she was sent community in Russia and she was sent into internal exile with her people in into internal exile with her people in into internal exile with her people in the 1950s. So every bad event that the 1950s. So every bad event that the 1950s. So every bad event that happened in the Soviet Union happened to happened in the Soviet Union happened to happened in the Soviet Union happened to her and my brilliant interviewing style her and my brilliant interviewing style her and my brilliant interviewing style was just like and then what happened and was just like and then what happened and was just like and then what happened and then what happened and then what then what happened and then what then what happened and then what happened and she told me this remarkable happened and she told me this remarkable happened and she told me this remarkable story and I remember thinking it's all story and I remember thinking it's all story and I remember thinking it's all coming to an end. We are converging as a coming to an end. We are converging as a coming to an end. We are converging as a world tyranny is going away. Democracy world tyranny is going away. Democracy world tyranny is going away. Democracy is spreading. Uh democratic capitalism is spreading. Uh democratic capitalism is spreading. Uh democratic capitalism is spreading and it seemed like we were is spreading and it seemed like we were is spreading and it seemed like we were in an era of convergence.

in an era of convergence. in an era of convergence. But then in the mid '90s, there was one But then in the mid '90s, there was one But then in the mid '90s, there was one little event I covered and I didn't pay little event I covered and I didn't pay little event I covered and I didn't pay much attention to the Yugoslav civil much attention to the Yugoslav civil much attention to the Yugoslav civil war. But that turned out to be the most war. But that turned out to be the most war. But that turned out to be the most predictive event of that whole era predictive event of that whole era predictive event of that whole era because we were entering the age of because we were entering the age of because we were entering the age of democratic retreat, of ethnic tension, democratic retreat, of ethnic tension, democratic retreat, of ethnic tension, of strong men and authoritarianism. of strong men and authoritarianism. of strong men and authoritarianism. And history has turned around and we are And history has turned around and we are And history has turned around and we are 30 years later. 30 years later. 30 years later. Yeah. And now we've got Erdogan in Yeah. And now we've got Erdogan in Yeah. And now we've got Erdogan in Turkey and we've got Victor Orban. We've Turkey and we've got Victor Orban. We've Turkey and we've got Victor Orban. We've got China and Xiinping likes Vladimir got China and Xiinping likes Vladimir got China and Xiinping likes Vladimir Putin. So, it's become a a much clearer Putin. So, it's become a a much clearer Putin. So, it's become a a much clearer world, and I would not have anticipated world, and I would not have anticipated world, and I would not have anticipated that 25 years ago. that 25 years ago. that 25 years ago. The '9s were I mean, I still remember I' The '9s were I mean, I still remember I' The '9s were I mean, I still remember I' I've got that image. I was in law school I've got that image. I was in law school I've got that image. I was in law school watching it on TV. You were there uh watching it on TV. You were there uh watching it on TV. You were there uh with Yeltson on the tank with the Berlin with Yeltson on the tank with the Berlin with Yeltson on the tank with the Berlin Wall collapsing on the back behind me on Wall collapsing on the back behind me on Wall collapsing on the back behind me on my shelf. I've got a piece of the Berlin my shelf. I've got a piece of the Berlin my shelf. I've got a piece of the Berlin Wall that uh spoke in Germany last year Wall that uh spoke in Germany last year Wall that uh spoke in Germany last year and they gave it to me as a gift, which and they gave it to me as a gift, which and they gave it to me as a gift, which was so kind. I mean, but watching that was so kind. I mean, but watching that was so kind. I mean, but watching that happen in real time and you know, Reagan happen in real time and you know, Reagan happen in real time and you know, Reagan and Gorbachev shaking hands, if if if and Gorbachev shaking hands, if if if and Gorbachev shaking hands, if if if you know, you're of our vintage, you you know, you're of our vintage, you you know, you're of our vintage, you remember that. I was in my 20s at the remember that. I was in my 20s at the remember that. I was in my 20s at the time when that happened, but it was time when that happened, but it was time when that happened, but it was incredible. And Jordan Peterson's thesis incredible. And Jordan Peterson's thesis incredible. And Jordan Peterson's thesis is no, the 20th century was brutal. And, is no, the 20th century was brutal. And, is no, the 20th century was brutal. And, you know, there was this uh renaissance you know, there was this uh renaissance you know, there was this uh renaissance at the end where it exactly what you at the end where it exactly what you at the end where it exactly what you said. It looked like it was all coming said. It looked like it was all coming said. It looked like it was all coming together. And now we're, you know, together. And now we're, you know, together. And now we're, you know, there's another frequent guest on this there's another frequent guest on this there's another frequent guest on this podcast, Mark Sers, who's just a podcast, Mark Sers, who's just a podcast, Mark Sers, who's just a brilliant cultural commentator, and he's brilliant cultural commentator, and he's brilliant cultural commentator, and he's like, "No, we're back to how most of like, "No, we're back to how most of like, "No, we're back to how most of human history has been over the last,

human history has been over the last, human history has been over the last, you know, millennia, where uh it's you know, millennia, where uh it's you know, millennia, where uh it's tribal, it's difficult, it's uh people tribal, it's difficult, it's uh people tribal, it's difficult, it's uh people pitted against people, it's systems pitted against people, it's systems pitted against people, it's systems against systems." And uh I' I'd love any against systems." And uh I' I'd love any against systems." And uh I' I'd love any further take on that. Uh, I noticed when further take on that. Uh, I noticed when further take on that. Uh, I noticed when when movies started to become dystopian when movies started to become dystopian when movies started to become dystopian 20 years ago, I'm like, why is it so 20 years ago, I'm like, why is it so 20 years ago, I'm like, why is it so dystopian? And it became, you know, a dystopian? And it became, you know, a dystopian? And it became, you know, a predictor of, I think, the world that predictor of, I think, the world that predictor of, I think, the world that we're kind of living in right now. Um, we're kind of living in right now. Um, we're kind of living in right now. Um, do you expect more of a dystopian do you expect more of a dystopian do you expect more of a dystopian future? Do you see a path toward peace future? Do you see a path toward peace future? Do you see a path toward peace or to the way it was in the '9s? What or to the way it was in the '9s? What or to the way it was in the '9s? What are you seeing? are you seeing? are you seeing? You know, I'm I'm known at the times as You know, I'm I'm known at the times as You know, I'm I'm known at the times as the unrealistic optimist. Uh, and so I I the unrealistic optimist. Uh, and so I I the unrealistic optimist. Uh, and so I I maintain that posture. Uh and so you maintain that posture. Uh and so you maintain that posture. Uh and so you know I think uh I think we humans learn know I think uh I think we humans learn know I think uh I think we humans learn and I more or less agree with Steven and I more or less agree with Steven and I more or less agree with Steven Pinker uh who wrote a book years ago Pinker uh who wrote a book years ago Pinker uh who wrote a book years ago called the Angels of Our Nature who called the Angels of Our Nature who called the Angels of Our Nature who pointed out that violence has been pointed out that violence has been pointed out that violence has been dropping. Uh cruelty has been dropping. dropping. Uh cruelty has been dropping. dropping. Uh cruelty has been dropping. Uh human dignity has been on the Uh human dignity has been on the Uh human dignity has been on the advance. We've seen the greatest advance. We've seen the greatest advance. We've seen the greatest reduction in poverty in world history reduction in poverty in world history reduction in poverty in world history over the last 40 or 50 years. And so I over the last 40 or 50 years. And so I over the last 40 or 50 years. And so I do think human beings figure out a way do think human beings figure out a way do think human beings figure out a way to make life um a little more civilized.

to make life um a little more civilized. to make life um a little more civilized. That bear baiting coliseum gladiators That bear baiting coliseum gladiators That bear baiting coliseum gladiators watching people murder, watching public watching people murder, watching public watching people murder, watching public executions, we no longer go for that. Uh executions, we no longer go for that. Uh executions, we no longer go for that. Uh and slavery, we no longer go for that. and slavery, we no longer go for that. and slavery, we no longer go for that. And when it was a norm. And so I do And when it was a norm. And so I do And when it was a norm. And so I do think things eb and flow. And one of the think things eb and flow. And one of the think things eb and flow. And one of the reasons they why get better is because reasons they why get better is because reasons they why get better is because we become good at moral formation. We we become good at moral formation. We we become good at moral formation. We become good at teaching coming become good at teaching coming become good at teaching coming generations how to be kind and generations how to be kind and generations how to be kind and considerate to other human beings in the considerate to other human beings in the considerate to other human beings in the complex circumstances of life. And our complex circumstances of life. And our complex circumstances of life. And our founders, America's founders at least, founders, America's founders at least, founders, America's founders at least, took a look at human beings and they took a look at human beings and they took a look at human beings and they said, "If we're going to democracy is said, "If we're going to democracy is said, "If we're going to democracy is the toughest form of government. It the toughest form of government. It the toughest form of government. It requires the most of people. And if requires the most of people. And if requires the most of people. And if we're going to to create a democracy out we're going to to create a democracy out we're going to to create a democracy out of human beings who are wonderfully made of human beings who are wonderfully made of human beings who are wonderfully made but basically broken and selfish, we've but basically broken and selfish, we've but basically broken and selfish, we've got to do a lot of moral formation. And got to do a lot of moral formation. And got to do a lot of moral formation. And moral formation is like a pompous word. moral formation is like a pompous word. moral formation is like a pompous word. But my favorite definition comes from But my favorite definition comes from But my favorite definition comes from the gospel of Ted Lasso. And he was the gospel of Ted Lasso. And he was the gospel of Ted Lasso. And he was asked in the first season of that show, asked in the first season of that show, asked in the first season of that show, what's your goals for your football what's your goals for your football what's your goals for your football team? He says it's not to win team? He says it's not to win team? He says it's not to win championships. It's to make these young championships. It's to make these young championships. It's to make these young fellas better versions of themselves on fellas better versions of themselves on fellas better versions of themselves on and off the field. And that's moral and off the field. And that's moral and off the field. And that's moral formation. making people better versions formation. making people better versions formation. making people better versions of themselves. And it used to be an of themselves. And it used to be an of themselves. And it used to be an obsession with every school. Our job is obsession with every school. Our job is obsession with every school. Our job is not to turn out kids who can get at not to turn out kids who can get at not to turn out kids who can get at Harvard. Our job is to turn out kids of Harvard. Our job is to turn out kids of Harvard. Our job is to turn out kids of good character. And there was a good character. And there was a good character. And there was a headmaster of something called the Stow headmaster of something called the Stow headmaster of something called the Stow School in England who said, "My job is School in England who said, "My job is School in England who said, "My job is to turn out students who are acceptable to turn out students who are acceptable to turn out students who are acceptable at a dance, invaluable at a shipwreck, at a dance, invaluable at a shipwreck, at a dance, invaluable at a shipwreck, the kind of people you can count on when

the kind of people you can count on when the kind of people you can count on when times are hard." times are hard." times are hard." And you know, I was lucky enough to be And you know, I was lucky enough to be And you know, I was lucky enough to be involved in a morally formative involved in a morally formative involved in a morally formative institution. And I've been involved, institution. And I've been involved, institution. And I've been involved, lucky enough to been in several, but one lucky enough to been in several, but one lucky enough to been in several, but one that illustrates how moral formation that illustrates how moral formation that illustrates how moral formation works. I I've been working for more than works. I I've been working for more than works. I I've been working for more than 20 years at the PBS NewsHour public 20 years at the PBS NewsHour public 20 years at the PBS NewsHour public broadcasting news show. And the first 10 broadcasting news show. And the first 10 broadcasting news show. And the first 10 years, my host and boss was a guy named years, my host and boss was a guy named years, my host and boss was a guy named Jim Ler. And when I said something Jim Ler. And when I said something Jim Ler. And when I said something smart, I could see Jim's eyes crinkle smart, I could see Jim's eyes crinkle smart, I could see Jim's eyes crinkle with pleasure. And when I said something with pleasure. And when I said something with pleasure. And when I said something crass or stupid, I could see his mouth crass or stupid, I could see his mouth crass or stupid, I could see his mouth turned down with displeasure. And so for turned down with displeasure. And so for turned down with displeasure. And so for 10 years, I just tried to chase the eye 10 years, I just tried to chase the eye 10 years, I just tried to chase the eye crinkle and avoid the mouth downturn. crinkle and avoid the mouth downturn. crinkle and avoid the mouth downturn. And that's how he taught me how to do And that's how he taught me how to do And that's how he taught me how to do things the NewsHour way. He created a things the NewsHour way. He created a things the NewsHour way. He created a moral ecology. And that's what leaders moral ecology. And that's what leaders moral ecology. And that's what leaders do. They create a moral ecology. And not do. They create a moral ecology. And not do. They create a moral ecology. And not just for me, but for everybody on the just for me, but for everybody on the just for me, but for everybody on the team. And Jim has been dead for a number team. And Jim has been dead for a number team. And Jim has been dead for a number of years now. But the moral ecology he of years now. But the moral ecology he of years now. But the moral ecology he created is still there at the NewsHour. created is still there at the NewsHour. created is still there at the NewsHour. And that's that's a beautiful legacy to And that's that's a beautiful legacy to And that's that's a beautiful legacy to leave. And if you go to some some leave. And if you go to some some leave. And if you go to some some institutions are thick and some are institutions are thick and some are institutions are thick and some are thin. Some you pass through them and thin. Some you pass through them and thin. Some you pass through them and they don't leave a mark. They're just they don't leave a mark. They're just they don't leave a mark. They're just kind of bland and neutral. But some are kind of bland and neutral. But some are kind of bland and neutral. But some are thick. You meet a guy who's been in the thick. You meet a guy who's been in the thick. You meet a guy who's been in the Marines, a woman man who's been in the Marines, a woman man who's been in the Marines, a woman man who's been in the Marines, you know it. They they mention Marines, you know it. They they mention Marines, you know it. They they mention how much the Marine changed their life.

how much the Marine changed their life. how much the Marine changed their life. You meet a Morehouse man, a guy who went You meet a Morehouse man, a guy who went You meet a Morehouse man, a guy who went to Morehouse College, you know it. He's to Morehouse College, you know it. He's to Morehouse College, you know it. He's a Morehouse man. It just shows. And a Morehouse man. It just shows. And a Morehouse man. It just shows. And thick institutions are not afraid to be thick institutions are not afraid to be thick institutions are not afraid to be distinct. They're not they're not afraid distinct. They're not they're not afraid distinct. They're not they're not afraid to be unlike other organizations. to be unlike other organizations. to be unlike other organizations. In thick institutions, there are In thick institutions, there are In thick institutions, there are rituals. In thick institutions, there's rituals. In thick institutions, there's rituals. In thick institutions, there's often music involved because it's hard often music involved because it's hard often music involved because it's hard to be distant after you dance to them. to be distant after you dance to them. to be distant after you dance to them. uh in thick institutions they have a uh in thick institutions they have a uh in thick institutions they have a clear purpose and everybody knows their clear purpose and everybody knows their clear purpose and everybody knows their role. In thick institutions when people role. In thick institutions when people role. In thick institutions when people leave the institutions they want to leave the institutions they want to leave the institutions they want to bring the culture with it. So it used to bring the culture with it. So it used to bring the culture with it. So it used to be people were executives at Proctor and be people were executives at Proctor and be people were executives at Proctor and Gamble say legendary company when they Gamble say legendary company when they Gamble say legendary company when they would leave Proctor and Gamble they would leave Proctor and Gamble they would leave Proctor and Gamble they brought the Proctor and Gamble culture brought the Proctor and Gamble culture brought the Proctor and Gamble culture to wherever they were going cuz they to wherever they were going cuz they to wherever they were going cuz they found it so valuable. And in thick found it so valuable. And in thick found it so valuable. And in thick institutions there's joy in the house. institutions there's joy in the house. institutions there's joy in the house. Uh there's just there's just some Uh there's just there's just some Uh there's just there's just some happiness to it. And that's how you happiness to it. And that's how you happiness to it. And that's how you leave a mark on people. And it it's a leave a mark on people. And it it's a leave a mark on people. And it it's a great act of leadership to create an great act of leadership to create an great act of leadership to create an organization that's thick and that that organization that's thick and that that organization that's thick and that that is formative rather than you just pass is formative rather than you just pass is formative rather than you just pass through it and you don't really think through it and you don't really think through it and you don't really think about it. It doesn't touch you.

about it. It doesn't touch you. about it. It doesn't touch you. That's a uh a nice dovetail into your That's a uh a nice dovetail into your That's a uh a nice dovetail into your own character and spiritual formation own character and spiritual formation own character and spiritual formation which has been a centerpiece of your which has been a centerpiece of your which has been a centerpiece of your work and also some of your books. Um do work and also some of your books. Um do work and also some of your books. Um do you want to give us a brief spiritual you want to give us a brief spiritual you want to give us a brief spiritual history of David Brooks? history of David Brooks? history of David Brooks? Sure. I'll give it in 35 seconds cuz Sure. I'll give it in 35 seconds cuz Sure. I'll give it in 35 seconds cuz that's that's that's 35 seconds. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. 35 seconds. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. 35 seconds. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Um you know I grew up in a Jewish home. Um you know I grew up in a Jewish home. Um you know I grew up in a Jewish home. Uh and really strong Jewish identity. I Uh and really strong Jewish identity. I Uh and really strong Jewish identity. I was really raised by my grandfather who was really raised by my grandfather who was really raised by my grandfather who was a um an immigrant mentality. Lower was a um an immigrant mentality. Lower was a um an immigrant mentality. Lower east side of Manhattan. east side of Manhattan. east side of Manhattan. So like conservative orthodox. So like conservative orthodox. So like conservative orthodox. We were conservative. We were conservative. We were conservative. Conservative. Okay. Conservative. Okay. Conservative. Okay. But I went to a Christian school called But I went to a Christian school called But I went to a Christian school called Grace Church School on 10th Street in Grace Church School on 10th Street in Grace Church School on 10th Street in Broadway. If anybody knows where the Broadway. If anybody knows where the Broadway. If anybody knows where the Strand bookstore is in New York, it's Strand bookstore is in New York, it's Strand bookstore is in New York, it's right by there. And I even sang in the right by there. And I even sang in the right by there. And I even sang in the choir. And because it was New York, we choir. And because it was New York, we choir. And because it was New York, we were were were Why did they put you in a Christian Why did they put you in a Christian Why did they put you in a Christian school if you were Jewish? school if you were Jewish? school if you were Jewish? Because it was the best school in Del Because it was the best school in Del Because it was the best school in Del Manhattan. Manhattan. Manhattan. And so our choir, because it's lower And so our choir, because it's lower And so our choir, because it's lower Manhattan, was 30% Jewish. And so we Manhattan, was 30% Jewish. And so we Manhattan, was 30% Jewish. And so we would sing the hymns, but we wouldn't would sing the hymns, but we wouldn't would sing the hymns, but we wouldn't sing the word Jesus to square with our sing the word Jesus to square with our sing the word Jesus to square with our religion. And so the volume in the religion. And so the volume in the religion. And so the volume in the church would go down, then come back up.

church would go down, then come back up. church would go down, then come back up. And and so that was so I grew up. And And and so that was so I grew up. And And and so that was so I grew up. And then I went to a Christian camp for 15 then I went to a Christian camp for 15 then I went to a Christian camp for 15 years, also Episcopalian. And so I grew years, also Episcopalian. And so I grew years, also Episcopalian. And so I grew up with those two stories rattling up with those two stories rattling up with those two stories rattling around in my head. the story of Exodus around in my head. the story of Exodus around in my head. the story of Exodus which was the story of my people but which was the story of my people but which was the story of my people but also the Jesus story and which is you also the Jesus story and which is you also the Jesus story and which is you know a transfixing story and I thought know a transfixing story and I thought know a transfixing story and I thought they were both wonderful stories but I they were both wonderful stories but I they were both wonderful stories but I didn't believe in God so it they didn't didn't believe in God so it they didn't didn't believe in God so it they didn't seem real to me. seem real to me. seem real to me. So you're an athe would you have been So you're an athe would you have been So you're an athe would you have been agnostic or atheistic Jew? I was too agnostic or atheistic Jew? I was too agnostic or atheistic Jew? I was too cowardly to say atheistic. So I was I cowardly to say atheistic. So I was I cowardly to say atheistic. So I was I would have said agnostic, but because I would have said agnostic, but because I would have said agnostic, but because I always had I was always around religion always had I was always around religion always had I was always around religion and when I first got married and for and when I first got married and for and when I first got married and for several decades thereafter, we kept a several decades thereafter, we kept a several decades thereafter, we kept a kosher home, sent our kids to Jewish day kosher home, sent our kids to Jewish day kosher home, sent our kids to Jewish day schools. And so I was certainly around a schools. And so I was certainly around a schools. And so I was certainly around a lot of religion. I just didn't have lot of religion. I just didn't have lot of religion. I just didn't have faith. And then um in my early 50s um faith. And then um in my early 50s um faith. And then um in my early 50s um the materialist categories I had for the the materialist categories I had for the the materialist categories I had for the world did not explain reality as I world did not explain reality as I world did not explain reality as I perceived it. that I had like numerous perceived it. that I had like numerous perceived it. that I had like numerous experiences and with greater frequency experiences and with greater frequency experiences and with greater frequency and one of them happened in New York and one of them happened in New York and one of them happened in New York City and if people know New York you City and if people know New York you City and if people know New York you know the ugliest the second ugliest spot know the ugliest the second ugliest spot know the ugliest the second ugliest spot in New York is Penn Station where the in New York is Penn Station where the in New York is Penn Station where the Amtrak trains come in and the first Amtrak trains come in and the first Amtrak trains come in and the first ugliest spot is the subway station next ugliest spot is the subway station next ugliest spot is the subway station next to Penn Station. Uh, and I was on the to Penn Station. Uh, and I was on the to Penn Station. Uh, and I was on the subway and I just had the sensation that subway and I just had the sensation that subway and I just had the sensation that all the car the people in it had souls.

all the car the people in it had souls. all the car the people in it had souls. Had souls that were shimmering and Had souls that were shimmering and Had souls that were shimmering and soaring or suffering or stagnating. But soaring or suffering or stagnating. But soaring or suffering or stagnating. But there was some piece of each person that there was some piece of each person that there was some piece of each person that has no size, color, weight or shape but has no size, color, weight or shape but has no size, color, weight or shape but gave them infinite value and dignity. gave them infinite value and dignity. gave them infinite value and dignity. And once you believe there's some And once you believe there's some And once you believe there's some unmaterial spiritual essence to a unmaterial spiritual essence to a unmaterial spiritual essence to a person, then um believing there's an person, then um believing there's an person, then um believing there's an spiritual essence in the universe spiritual essence in the universe spiritual essence in the universe becomes a kind of short step. Uh and so becomes a kind of short step. Uh and so becomes a kind of short step. Uh and so I was wandering and searching and when I was wandering and searching and when I was wandering and searching and when you're searching and seeking in public, you're searching and seeking in public, you're searching and seeking in public, I learned that what Christians do is I learned that what Christians do is I learned that what Christians do is they give you books. And so over the they give you books. And so over the they give you books. And so over the course of TV books so over the course of course of TV books so over the course of course of TV books so over the course of several months I got were probably five several months I got were probably five several months I got were probably five or six hundred books only 350 of which or six hundred books only 350 of which or six hundred books only 350 of which were different copies of Mere were different copies of Mere were different copies of Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. So I got Christianity by CS Lewis. So I got Christianity by CS Lewis. So I got hundreds of those uh and slowly it hundreds of those uh and slowly it hundreds of those uh and slowly it seeped in that um and it what what seeped in that um and it what what seeped in that um and it what what surprised me about faith and I I it was surprised me about faith and I I it was surprised me about faith and I I it was non-dramatic. There was not like some non-dramatic. There was not like some non-dramatic. There was not like some moment where I'm sitting in my room and moment where I'm sitting in my room and moment where I'm sitting in my room and Jesus walks through the wall and says Jesus walks through the wall and says Jesus walks through the wall and says come follow me. It was more like you're come follow me. It was more like you're come follow me. It was more like you're you're sitting on a train and everybody you're sitting on a train and everybody you're sitting on a train and everybody around you is doing normal stuff.

around you is doing normal stuff. around you is doing normal stuff. They're reading paper, drinking their They're reading paper, drinking their They're reading paper, drinking their coffee. It seems normal and gradual, but coffee. It seems normal and gradual, but coffee. It seems normal and gradual, but you look out the window and you realize you look out the window and you realize you look out the window and you realize you've come a long way. You're there's a you've come a long way. You're there's a you've come a long way. You're there's a lot of ground behind you and you're no lot of ground behind you and you're no lot of ground behind you and you're no longer in the city of atheism or longer in the city of atheism or longer in the city of atheism or secularism. You're in some kind of city secularism. You're in some kind of city secularism. You're in some kind of city of belief. You've crossed some boundary of belief. You've crossed some boundary of belief. You've crossed some boundary and you realize, oh, I'm a I believe in and you realize, oh, I'm a I believe in and you realize, oh, I'm a I believe in God. and and it came to me frankly more God. and and it came to me frankly more God. and and it came to me frankly more mostly I I feel more Jewish than ever mostly I I feel more Jewish than ever mostly I I feel more Jewish than ever because I think those stories of Exodus because I think those stories of Exodus because I think those stories of Exodus are real. are real. are real. But I also found that the biatitudes are But I also found that the biatitudes are But I also found that the biatitudes are the the spot that move me the most in the the spot that move me the most in the the spot that move me the most in scripture that they are where as some scripture that they are where as some scripture that they are where as some writer wrote where the spiritual writer wrote where the spiritual writer wrote where the spiritual splendor of God comes through in the splendor of God comes through in the splendor of God comes through in the sermon on the mount. And so I tell my sermon on the mount. And so I tell my sermon on the mount. And so I tell my friends I can't unread Matthew. Uh and friends I can't unread Matthew. Uh and friends I can't unread Matthew. Uh and so I I feel both. My Jewish friends say so I I feel both. My Jewish friends say so I I feel both. My Jewish friends say you you don't get to be both. He can't you you don't get to be both. He can't you you don't get to be both. He can't be I I I insist that you know the Jesus be I I I insist that you know the Jesus be I I I insist that you know the Jesus I love and admire was a Jew. He was a I love and admire was a Jew. He was a I love and admire was a Jew. He was a Jew. Uh and when you see Jesus through Jew. Uh and when you see Jesus through Jew. Uh and when you see Jesus through the Jewish lens, he's not a wispy guy the Jewish lens, he's not a wispy guy the Jewish lens, he's not a wispy guy with blonde hair and two fingers with blonde hair and two fingers with blonde hair and two fingers sticking up in the air. He's a guy who sticking up in the air. He's a guy who sticking up in the air. He's a guy who comes from the most rugged place in comes from the most rugged place in comes from the most rugged place in Israel. and he comes into the temple and Israel. and he comes into the temple and Israel. and he comes into the temple and he takes on all the power structures and he takes on all the power structures and he takes on all the power structures and he topples all of them all at once. And he topples all of them all at once. And he topples all of them all at once. And so it's a revolutionary period. It's a so it's a revolutionary period. It's a so it's a revolutionary period. It's a violent period. And Jesus the Jew is violent period. And Jesus the Jew is violent period. And Jesus the Jew is just a total badass. Uh and so you you

just a total badass. Uh and so you you just a total badass. Uh and so you you see him sometimes I resent, you know, see him sometimes I resent, you know, see him sometimes I resent, you know, the Oxford Jesus like CS Lewis and J.R. the Oxford Jesus like CS Lewis and J.R. the Oxford Jesus like CS Lewis and J.R. Tolken. As much as I love those two Tolken. As much as I love those two Tolken. As much as I love those two writers, their version of Jetus was writers, their version of Jetus was writers, their version of Jetus was pretty like he was pretty British like pretty like he was pretty British like pretty like he was pretty British like stiff stiff upper lip, very graceful, stiff stiff upper lip, very graceful, stiff stiff upper lip, very graceful, you know, Alen, very polite. Uh, and but you know, Alen, very polite. Uh, and but you know, Alen, very polite. Uh, and but that's not how I see the actual person that's not how I see the actual person that's not how I see the actual person shown to us in the Gospels. Uh, and so shown to us in the Gospels. Uh, and so shown to us in the Gospels. Uh, and so I've I I I've come to come to that spot I've I I I've come to come to that spot I've I I I've come to come to that spot where it's been really more than a where it's been really more than a where it's been really more than a decade, 12 years since I had coming to decade, 12 years since I had coming to decade, 12 years since I had coming to faith. And the thing that shocks me is faith. And the thing that shocks me is faith. And the thing that shocks me is faith has not felt like belief to me. faith has not felt like belief to me. faith has not felt like belief to me. It's not felt like a possession, It's not felt like a possession, It's not felt like a possession, something I possess. It's felt like a something I possess. It's felt like a something I possess. It's felt like a longing, longing, longing, a taste of something and a longing for a taste of something and a longing for a taste of something and a longing for it. Uh, one of my heroes is Dorothy Day, it. Uh, one of my heroes is Dorothy Day, it. Uh, one of my heroes is Dorothy Day, who wrote a book called The Long who wrote a book called The Long who wrote a book called The Long Loneliness. And what she meant by Loneliness. And what she meant by Loneliness. And what she meant by loneliness was not solitude. She meant loneliness was not solitude. She meant loneliness was not solitude. She meant the loneliness for God, the longing for the loneliness for God, the longing for the loneliness for God, the longing for God, the hunger for God. And there was God, the hunger for God. And there was God, the hunger for God. And there was an early church father who said that an early church father who said that an early church father who said that heaven is endless longing.

heaven is endless longing. heaven is endless longing. And that appeals to me. Um I feel it as And that appeals to me. Um I feel it as And that appeals to me. Um I feel it as a longing. So some days I feel faith a longing. So some days I feel faith a longing. So some days I feel faith intensely. Some days feel nothing. And intensely. Some days feel nothing. And intensely. Some days feel nothing. And it's not belief or doubt. It's it's not it's not belief or doubt. It's it's not it's not belief or doubt. It's it's not that. It's intensity or or dryness. And that. It's intensity or or dryness. And that. It's intensity or or dryness. And and that's how faith appears to me. Not and that's how faith appears to me. Not and that's how faith appears to me. Not as a belief set of creeds, but really as as a belief set of creeds, but really as as a belief set of creeds, but really as an an implanted longing in my soul for an an implanted longing in my soul for an an implanted longing in my soul for something of infinite value. something of infinite value. something of infinite value. That's very CS Lewis actually. That's very CS Lewis actually. That's very CS Lewis actually. Yeah. Well, I certainly as much as I Yeah. Well, I certainly as much as I Yeah. Well, I certainly as much as I badmouth Oxford Jesus, I spent Lord badmouth Oxford Jesus, I spent Lord badmouth Oxford Jesus, I spent Lord knows I've spent enough time reading CS knows I've spent enough time reading CS knows I've spent enough time reading CS Lewis who was Lewis who was Lewis who was I might I might David have my dates I might I might David have my dates I might I might David have my dates confused a little bit. Was that around confused a little bit. Was that around confused a little bit. Was that around the time you were thinking through the the time you were thinking through the the time you were thinking through the issues that became The Second Mountain? issues that became The Second Mountain? issues that became The Second Mountain? It was about Well, the second mountain It was about Well, the second mountain It was about Well, the second mountain was written about seven years later was written about seven years later was written about seven years later after all these changes had occurred. after all these changes had occurred. after all these changes had occurred. And so I was in the middle of a book um And so I was in the middle of a book um And so I was in the middle of a book um called The Road to Character and I was called The Road to Character and I was called The Road to Character and I was transficed by Augustine. And here was transficed by Augustine. And here was transficed by Augustine. And here was Augustine was basically a successful Augustine was basically a successful Augustine was basically a successful yepy. He goes to Milan. He's a good yepy. He goes to Milan. He's a good yepy. He goes to Milan. He's a good lawyer and he has the world at his feet, lawyer and he has the world at his feet, lawyer and he has the world at his feet, but he realizes he's got this spiritual but he realizes he's got this spiritual but he realizes he's got this spiritual longing, this hunger that is not being longing, this hunger that is not being longing, this hunger that is not being met. And as he famously said, um, our met. And as he famously said, um, our met. And as he famously said, um, our hearts are restless until we rest in hearts are restless until we rest in hearts are restless until we rest in you. And then I was reading and teaching you. And then I was reading and teaching you. And then I was reading and teaching Dorothy Day. Uh, and Dorothy Day, Dorothy Day. Uh, and Dorothy Day, Dorothy Day. Uh, and Dorothy Day, there's one story that sort of signifies there's one story that sort of signifies there's one story that sort of signifies to me the kind of longing that I to me the kind of longing that I to me the kind of longing that I resonate with. Um she was asked at the resonate with. Um she was asked at the resonate with. Um she was asked at the end of her life and she she was a woman end of her life and she she was a woman end of her life and she she was a woman who not only served the poor her whole who not only served the poor her whole who not only served the poor her whole life but lived with the poor and really life but lived with the poor and really life but lived with the poor and really identified with the poor. She led the identified with the poor. She led the identified with the poor. She led the most Christopher life it's possible to

most Christopher life it's possible to most Christopher life it's possible to imagine. imagine. imagine. Uh and at the end of her life she was a Uh and at the end of her life she was a Uh and at the end of her life she was a beautiful writer a guy named Robert beautiful writer a guy named Robert beautiful writer a guy named Robert Kohl's asked her have you ever thought Kohl's asked her have you ever thought Kohl's asked her have you ever thought of writing a late in life memoir of writing a late in life memoir of writing a late in life memoir summarizing your whole life? And she summarizing your whole life? And she summarizing your whole life? And she said yeah in fact once I sat down with a said yeah in fact once I sat down with a said yeah in fact once I sat down with a legal pad and I wrote at the top a life legal pad and I wrote at the top a life legal pad and I wrote at the top a life remembered by Dorothy Day. And she said, remembered by Dorothy Day. And she said, remembered by Dorothy Day. And she said, "And I sat there and I thought of the "And I sat there and I thought of the "And I sat there and I thought of the Lord and his visit to us those many Lord and his visit to us those many Lord and his visit to us those many centuries ago and I was just grateful to centuries ago and I was just grateful to centuries ago and I was just grateful to have had him on my mind this whole time have had him on my mind this whole time have had him on my mind this whole time and I realized I didn't need to write and I realized I didn't need to write and I realized I didn't need to write anything." And when I she said that that anything." And when I she said that that anything." And when I she said that that when I read about that I was just when I read about that I was just when I read about that I was just grateful to have had him on my mind this grateful to have had him on my mind this grateful to have had him on my mind this whole time. That's a kind of beautiful whole time. That's a kind of beautiful whole time. That's a kind of beautiful serenity serenity serenity and really surrender to a faith. And and really surrender to a faith. And and really surrender to a faith. And moment when you see examples like that, moment when you see examples like that, moment when you see examples like that, you just think, "Wow, that's it's a you just think, "Wow, that's it's a you just think, "Wow, that's it's a beauty that we're all drawn to." I think beauty that we're all drawn to." I think beauty that we're all drawn to." I think one of the things that uh you were one of the things that uh you were one of the things that uh you were blessed with was a friendship with Tim blessed with was a friendship with Tim blessed with was a friendship with Tim Keller. And if you wouldn't mind talking Keller. And if you wouldn't mind talking Keller. And if you wouldn't mind talking about that, I mean, you you wrote about about that, I mean, you you wrote about about that, I mean, you you wrote about him at different times uh when he passed him at different times uh when he passed him at different times uh when he passed a couple years ago. You wrote a a couple years ago. You wrote a a couple years ago. You wrote a beautiful piece. Um, I only had the beautiful piece. Um, I only had the beautiful piece. Um, I only had the opportunity to meet him three times, but opportunity to meet him three times, but opportunity to meet him three times, but had him on the podcast and just uh it had him on the podcast and just uh it had him on the podcast and just uh it was a class in and of himself, like was a class in and of himself, like was a class in and of himself, like class unto his own. I would love how did class unto his own. I would love how did class unto his own. I would love how did you how did you meet him? How did your you how did you meet him? How did your you how did you meet him? How did your friendship start and maybe just describe friendship start and maybe just describe friendship start and maybe just describe the the relationship you had and the Tim the the relationship you had and the Tim the the relationship you had and the Tim Keller you knew?

Keller you knew? Keller you knew? Yeah. Well, it started when I was in Yeah. Well, it started when I was in Yeah. Well, it started when I was in this period of searching and I'd heard this period of searching and I'd heard this period of searching and I'd heard about Tim Keller and listened to his about Tim Keller and listened to his about Tim Keller and listened to his sermons and read some of his books. sermons and read some of his books. sermons and read some of his books. Can I ask how you heard about him? Can I ask how you heard about him? Can I ask how you heard about him? because I mean he was a nobody who came because I mean he was a nobody who came because I mean he was a nobody who came to New York in 1989. to New York in 1989. to New York in 1989. Yeah. By the time I was by the time this Yeah. By the time I was by the time this Yeah. By the time I was by the time this all happened it was 2013 so he was a big all happened it was 2013 so he was a big all happened it was 2013 so he was a big deal. Yeah, I had read I had read the deal. Yeah, I had read I had read the deal. Yeah, I had read I had read the meaning of marriage which he wrote with meaning of marriage which he wrote with meaning of marriage which he wrote with his wife Kathy were one of the greatest his wife Kathy were one of the greatest his wife Kathy were one of the greatest books on marriage of any kind books on marriage of any kind books on marriage of any kind and I read a bunch and then I had I had and I read a bunch and then I had I had and I read a bunch and then I had I had a lot of mutual friends a lot of mutual friends a lot of mutual friends and and uh so I I was in this wandering and and uh so I I was in this wandering and and uh so I I was in this wandering phase and it was a period of lossness phase and it was a period of lossness phase and it was a period of lossness and so I just called him up and said can and so I just called him up and said can and so I just called him up and said can I have a conversation with you and he he I have a conversation with you and he he I have a conversation with you and he he kindly said yes so I began meeting with kindly said yes so I began meeting with kindly said yes so I began meeting with him and then we were in some similar him and then we were in some similar him and then we were in some similar social circles and then we uh some social circles and then we uh some social circles and then we uh some friends years ago formed a book club and friends years ago formed a book club and friends years ago formed a book club and he was in the book club with a guy named he was in the book club with a guy named he was in the book club with a guy named Mike Gerson and I think it's now public Mike Gerson and I think it's now public Mike Gerson and I think it's now public we can talk about it. Um and so every we can talk about it. Um and so every we can talk about it. Um and so every book club could have been the Tim Keller book club could have been the Tim Keller book club could have been the Tim Keller press conference and we we press conference and we we press conference and we we he would have remembered the whole book.

he would have remembered the whole book. he would have remembered the whole book. Yeah. And so he he could have just Yeah. And so he he could have just Yeah. And so he he could have just dominated but he very graciously just dominated but he very graciously just dominated but he very graciously just let us do our rambling our theological let us do our rambling our theological let us do our rambling our theological ramblings but he had as sharp a mind as ramblings but he had as sharp a mind as ramblings but he had as sharp a mind as it's possible to imagine. And I it's possible to imagine. And I it's possible to imagine. And I mentioned early in the podcast my need mentioned early in the podcast my need mentioned early in the podcast my need to write everything down on post-it to write everything down on post-it to write everything down on post-it notes. He had all this stuff in his notes. He had all this stuff in his notes. He had all this stuff in his head. And so I would say, "How do you do head. And so I would say, "How do you do head. And so I would say, "How do you do the sermons? You must there are so many the sermons? You must there are so many the sermons? You must there are so many quotes. There are so many facts. You've quotes. There are so many facts. You've quotes. There are so many facts. You've read you know philosophers like Charles read you know philosophers like Charles read you know philosophers like Charles Taylor. Where does it where do you keep Taylor. Where does it where do you keep Taylor. Where does it where do you keep all you must have a note cards and note all you must have a note cards and note all you must have a note cards and note cards?" He said, "No, it's just up here cards?" He said, "No, it's just up here cards?" He said, "No, it's just up here in my head and someday it's going to in my head and someday it's going to in my head and someday it's going to go." But he was if anybody I I had a go." But he was if anybody I I had a go." But he was if anybody I I had a friend who went to a church in DC and friend who went to a church in DC and friend who went to a church in DC and when the ser when the pastor would get when the ser when the pastor would get when the ser when the pastor would get up to give a sermon he would excuse up to give a sermon he would excuse up to give a sermon he would excuse himself and go outside and listen to a himself and go outside and listen to a himself and go outside and listen to a Keller sermon and then come back in Keller sermon and then come back in Keller sermon and then come back in after it was over cuz Tim's sermons are after it was over cuz Tim's sermons are after it was over cuz Tim's sermons are so good. And the thing that's amazing so good. And the thing that's amazing so good. And the thing that's amazing about him is not only his brain, which about him is not only his brain, which about him is not only his brain, which was really phenomenal, but you know, I was really phenomenal, but you know, I was really phenomenal, but you know, I think what's so impressive is that for think what's so impressive is that for think what's so impressive is that for the first couple decades, he pastored a the first couple decades, he pastored a the first couple decades, he pastored a small church in rural Virginia where 5% small church in rural Virginia where 5% small church in rural Virginia where 5% of the people had college degrees. And of the people had college degrees. And of the people had college degrees. And even though he was a great intellectual, even though he was a great intellectual, even though he was a great intellectual, he found a way to communicate with them.

he found a way to communicate with them. he found a way to communicate with them. And he didn't write any books in those And he didn't write any books in those And he didn't write any books in those years. He said, "I'm not ready. I'm I'm years. He said, "I'm not ready. I'm I'm years. He said, "I'm not ready. I'm I'm not pastor." And so that's a that's a not pastor." And so that's a that's a not pastor." And so that's a that's a real he he's not like I don't know if I real he he's not like I don't know if I real he he's not like I don't know if I I I know I could not have done that. I'm I I know I could not have done that. I'm I I know I could not have done that. I'm like I I operate at a certain level. I like I I operate at a certain level. I like I I operate at a certain level. I like to write every day. And um but Tim like to write every day. And um but Tim like to write every day. And um but Tim was willing to just do pure service. And was willing to just do pure service. And was willing to just do pure service. And then when he moved to New York and was then when he moved to New York and was then when he moved to New York and was starting Redeemer, books poured out of starting Redeemer, books poured out of starting Redeemer, books poured out of him in profusion. him in profusion. him in profusion. And so um he's just one of the great um And so um he's just one of the great um And so um he's just one of the great um pastoral leaders of a kind. pastoral leaders of a kind. pastoral leaders of a kind. How did he pastor you in that season? How did he pastor you in that season? How did he pastor you in that season? very logically like he would really it very logically like he would really it very logically like he would really it was all like let's consider what's was all like let's consider what's was all like let's consider what's happened here. Let's consider whether happened here. Let's consider whether happened here. Let's consider whether your behavior conforms to what God asks your behavior conforms to what God asks your behavior conforms to what God asks of us. And there he was it was clear. It of us. And there he was it was clear. It of us. And there he was it was clear. It was not it was not super like huggy and was not it was not super like huggy and was not it was not super like huggy and it was not like going to the getting it was not like going to the getting it was not like going to the getting pastored by Oprah or whatever I imagine pastored by Oprah or whatever I imagine pastored by Oprah or whatever I imagine that to be like. It was rigorous and that to be like. It was rigorous and that to be like. It was rigorous and clear and and sometimes tough mannered.

clear and and sometimes tough mannered. clear and and sometimes tough mannered. And so he he it was not like being And so he he it was not like being And so he he it was not like being hugged. It was I was like being reasoned hugged. It was I was like being reasoned hugged. It was I was like being reasoned with. Uh and and he reached out to me with. Uh and and he reached out to me with. Uh and and he reached out to me out of the kindness of his heart. He out of the kindness of his heart. He out of the kindness of his heart. He didn't need to talk to me. But um so he didn't need to talk to me. But um so he didn't need to talk to me. But um so he had that kindness in there, but he the had that kindness in there, but he the had that kindness in there, but he the way he was related was through public way he was related was through public way he was related was through public philosophy really and public theology. philosophy really and public theology. philosophy really and public theology. uh and he when he got sick, when he got uh and he when he got sick, when he got uh and he when he got sick, when he got cancer, he was the kind of guy who um cancer, he was the kind of guy who um cancer, he was the kind of guy who um did not want to talk about cancer. He did not want to talk about cancer. He did not want to talk about cancer. He wanted to talk about the future of the wanted to talk about the future of the wanted to talk about the future of the church, the reforms that might be needed church, the reforms that might be needed church, the reforms that might be needed to repair the church. Uh he wanted to to repair the church. Uh he wanted to to repair the church. Uh he wanted to talk about Tolken and he wanted to talk talk about Tolken and he wanted to talk talk about Tolken and he wanted to talk about like he loved the essay Tolken about like he loved the essay Tolken about like he loved the essay Tolken wrote that said the Jesus story is a wrote that said the Jesus story is a wrote that said the Jesus story is a true myth, a myth that actually true myth, a myth that actually true myth, a myth that actually happened. And so what does it mean to be happened. And so what does it mean to be happened. And so what does it mean to be a myth? And and so I remember once he a myth? And and so I remember once he a myth? And and so I remember once he called into our book group from the ER called into our book group from the ER called into our book group from the ER and he was having a bad night and so and he was having a bad night and so and he was having a bad night and so he's all wired up there and the hospital he's all wired up there and the hospital he's all wired up there and the hospital lights are beeping and he's having a lights are beeping and he's having a lights are beeping and he's having a strong argument about whatever book we strong argument about whatever book we strong argument about whatever book we happen to be reading that week and um happen to be reading that week and um happen to be reading that week and um just a golden searching intellect.

any other um you know I was I was with a any other um you know I was I was with a group of um people who pastor large group of um people who pastor large group of um people who pastor large churches in America and we were in the churches in America and we were in the churches in America and we were in the pool at this place and pool at this place and pool at this place and these are these are great people I'm not these are these are great people I'm not these are these are great people I'm not throwing my friends under the bus but throwing my friends under the bus but throwing my friends under the bus but his comment he's in his mid-40s he his comment he's in his mid-40s he his comment he's in his mid-40s he looked around and he goes you know looked around and he goes you know looked around and he goes you know there's not a Tim Keller in this pool there's not a Tim Keller in this pool there's not a Tim Keller in this pool and he has a point we lost a giant in and he has a point we lost a giant in and he has a point we lost a giant in him and we've lost a few giants over the him and we've lost a few giants over the him and we've lost a few giants over the last 10 years 15 years in in the church. last 10 years 15 years in in the church. last 10 years 15 years in in the church. Um, Um, Um, but when when you're thinking about but when when you're thinking about but when when you're thinking about young leaders and you think about the um young leaders and you think about the um young leaders and you think about the um the characteristics that made Tim Tim, the characteristics that made Tim Tim, the characteristics that made Tim Tim, some of that was freak of nature, God's some of that was freak of nature, God's some of that was freak of nature, God's gifting, a brain that was unlike like in gifting, a brain that was unlike like in gifting, a brain that was unlike like in all the interviews I've done, hundreds all the interviews I've done, hundreds all the interviews I've done, hundreds and hundreds, there's no one like Tim and hundreds, there's no one like Tim and hundreds, there's no one like Tim Keller. I mean, my goodness, more more Keller. I mean, my goodness, more more Keller. I mean, my goodness, more more meaning in a sentence than many of us meaning in a sentence than many of us meaning in a sentence than many of us have in a lifetime. And but I'm have in a lifetime. And but I'm have in a lifetime. And but I'm wondering what the emulatable wondering what the emulatable wondering what the emulatable characteristics characteristics characteristics of Tim from your perspective of somebody of Tim from your perspective of somebody of Tim from your perspective of somebody who knew him up close and personal might who knew him up close and personal might who knew him up close and personal might be.

be. be. Well, his brain is hard to replicate. Uh Well, his brain is hard to replicate. Uh Well, his brain is hard to replicate. Uh but um but Tim was part of the but um but Tim was part of the but um but Tim was part of the conversation. He knew what year it was. conversation. He knew what year it was. conversation. He knew what year it was. Uh and so he like what is going on in Uh and so he like what is going on in Uh and so he like what is going on in the culture now? The only person I think the culture now? The only person I think the culture now? The only person I think I who can rival that also died recently, I who can rival that also died recently, I who can rival that also died recently, a guy named Rabbi Jonathan Saxs, who was a guy named Rabbi Jonathan Saxs, who was a guy named Rabbi Jonathan Saxs, who was the chief rabbi of the UK for many the chief rabbi of the UK for many the chief rabbi of the UK for many years. And so he was going to read the years. And so he was going to read the years. And so he was going to read the philosophers like Charles Taylor. He was philosophers like Charles Taylor. He was philosophers like Charles Taylor. He was going to read Christopher Lash who wrote going to read Christopher Lash who wrote going to read Christopher Lash who wrote a book about the revolt of the elites. a book about the revolt of the elites. a book about the revolt of the elites. He was going to also read people like NT He was going to also read people like NT He was going to also read people like NT Wright and people more in the Christian Wright and people more in the Christian Wright and people more in the Christian tradition. And so he was going to do the tradition. And so he was going to do the tradition. And so he was going to do the reading and say, well, what is going on reading and say, well, what is going on reading and say, well, what is going on in the culture right now? And I have I in the culture right now? And I have I in the culture right now? And I have I when I started my career, my heroes were when I started my career, my heroes were when I started my career, my heroes were um writers who wrote in America between um writers who wrote in America between um writers who wrote in America between 1955 and 1965. And they wrote big books 1955 and 1965. And they wrote big books 1955 and 1965. And they wrote big books like Jane Jacobs wrote a book called The like Jane Jacobs wrote a book called The like Jane Jacobs wrote a book called The Life and Death of Great American Cities. Life and Death of Great American Cities. Life and Death of Great American Cities. Rachel Carson wrote a book called The Rachel Carson wrote a book called The Rachel Carson wrote a book called The Silent Spring. There was a guy named Silent Spring. There was a guy named Silent Spring. There was a guy named Daniel Bell who wrote a book called The Daniel Bell who wrote a book called The Daniel Bell who wrote a book called The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism.

Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism. Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism. And so these were these were they were And so these were these were they were And so these were these were they were slightly more intellectual than slightly more intellectual than slightly more intellectual than journalists and slightly less academic journalists and slightly less academic journalists and slightly less academic than academics. And they wrote big than academics. And they wrote big than academics. And they wrote big books, big ambitious books trying to books, big ambitious books trying to books, big ambitious books trying to take on the key issues of the times. One take on the key issues of the times. One take on the key issues of the times. One of my heroes uh is a theologian named of my heroes uh is a theologian named of my heroes uh is a theologian named Ryan Holber. And Neber wrote a book Ryan Holber. And Neber wrote a book Ryan Holber. And Neber wrote a book called the nature and destiny of man. called the nature and destiny of man. called the nature and destiny of man. That covers a lot of ground. That covers a lot of ground. That covers a lot of ground. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so they weren't afraid to take on And so they weren't afraid to take on And so they weren't afraid to take on the big subjects. And Keller was a the big subjects. And Keller was a the big subjects. And Keller was a little like that. The people he read little like that. The people he read little like that. The people he read were public intellectuals of that sort, were public intellectuals of that sort, were public intellectuals of that sort, not necessarily academics, but the big not necessarily academics, but the big not necessarily academics, but the big thinkers. And what's was remarkable thinkers. And what's was remarkable thinkers. And what's was remarkable about Tim is he stayed curious. And so about Tim is he stayed curious. And so about Tim is he stayed curious. And so his mind was changing his whole life. I his mind was changing his whole life. I his mind was changing his whole life. I went through a period uh my wife and I went through a period uh my wife and I went through a period uh my wife and I did u of church shopping. did u of church shopping. did u of church shopping. And it was a hard period because and I And it was a hard period because and I And it was a hard period because and I shouldn't go to church expecting to find shouldn't go to church expecting to find shouldn't go to church expecting to find content. That's not why you go to content. That's not why you go to content. That's not why you go to church. But I'm a writer. I like to I church. But I'm a writer. I like to I church. But I'm a writer. I like to I like somebody who's going to give a like somebody who's going to give a like somebody who's going to give a sermon that I'll find interesting. sermon that I'll find interesting. sermon that I'll find interesting. content's helpful. content's helpful. content's helpful. Yeah. And and and so many of the when as Yeah. And and and so many of the when as Yeah. And and and so many of the when as we were church shopping, so many of the we were church shopping, so many of the we were church shopping, so many of the sermons were Christianity 101.

sermons were Christianity 101. sermons were Christianity 101. It was over and over again, you know, It was over and over again, you know, It was over and over again, you know, God is love. God is love. I went to a God is love. God is love. I went to a God is love. God is love. I went to a church and he was the pastor was church and he was the pastor was church and he was the pastor was preaching on the Jesus saying, "I come preaching on the Jesus saying, "I come preaching on the Jesus saying, "I come uh bearing a sword." Uh and that's uh bearing a sword." Uh and that's uh bearing a sword." Uh and that's always been an interesting passage. And always been an interesting passage. And always been an interesting passage. And the pastor said, "Well, this shows God the pastor said, "Well, this shows God the pastor said, "Well, this shows God is loved." And I was like, "Well, it is loved." And I was like, "Well, it is loved." And I was like, "Well, it seems a little more complicated than seems a little more complicated than seems a little more complicated than that." Uh, and so the the need to like that." Uh, and so the the need to like that." Uh, and so the the need to like for the pastor to keep asking himself for the pastor to keep asking himself for the pastor to keep asking himself fresh questions so they can stay sharp. fresh questions so they can stay sharp. fresh questions so they can stay sharp. That's what Tim did every week. There That's what Tim did every week. There That's what Tim did every week. There was something he was trying to figure was something he was trying to figure was something he was trying to figure out. And so his mind was always on the out. And so his mind was always on the out. And so his mind was always on the move and he wasn't content with the move and he wasn't content with the move and he wasn't content with the settled cliches or Christianity 101. And settled cliches or Christianity 101. And settled cliches or Christianity 101. And so that level of curiosity, I think so that level of curiosity, I think so that level of curiosity, I think that's that you can copy. Uh, and and that's that you can copy. Uh, and and that's that you can copy. Uh, and and yeah, and and the constant learning, the yeah, and and the constant learning, the yeah, and and the constant learning, the reading every day, the uh attention to reading every day, the uh attention to reading every day, the uh attention to culture. I'm curious, you know, if Tim culture. I'm curious, you know, if Tim culture. I'm curious, you know, if Tim was alive today, it's been a couple was alive today, it's been a couple was alive today, it's been a couple years now. What do you wish you would years now. What do you wish you would years now. What do you wish you would weigh in on? The world has changed since weigh in on? The world has changed since weigh in on? The world has changed since 2023. 2023. 2023. Yeah, that's true. Um, you know, I think Yeah, that's true. Um, you know, I think Yeah, that's true. Um, you know, I think he as he was dying, the thing I remember he as he was dying, the thing I remember he as he was dying, the thing I remember I was once with him, uh, and he had this I was once with him, uh, and he had this I was once with him, uh, and he had this 10-point plan for what the church 10-point plan for what the church 10-point plan for what the church needed. And it everyone else was like, I needed. And it everyone else was like, I needed. And it everyone else was like, I used to go to these conferences, oh, the used to go to these conferences, oh, the used to go to these conferences, oh, the church is in crisis, the church is in church is in crisis, the church is in church is in crisis, the church is in crisis. And the first three days of the crisis. And the first three days of the crisis. And the first three days of the conferences would be different conferences would be different conferences would be different discussions of how bad the crisis is, discussions of how bad the crisis is, discussions of how bad the crisis is, whether it's the abuse crisis, whether whether it's the abuse crisis, whether whether it's the abuse crisis, whether it's whatever, whatever, whatever. And it's whatever, whatever, whatever. And it's whatever, whatever, whatever. And then the day three would be now we're then the day three would be now we're then the day three would be now we're going to figure out what to do next. Now going to figure out what to do next. Now going to figure out what to do next. Now we're going to come up with solutions.

we're going to come up with solutions. we're going to come up with solutions. And though that day three was always And though that day three was always And though that day three was always mumble mumble mumble don't really know mumble mumble mumble don't really know mumble mumble mumble don't really know what to do. But Tim did know what to do. what to do. But Tim did know what to do. what to do. But Tim did know what to do. So he said you a need a lot more church So he said you a need a lot more church So he said you a need a lot more church planning because the only way you get planning because the only way you get planning because the only way you get converts is by planning a new church. B converts is by planning a new church. B converts is by planning a new church. B we need a funnel of Christians into the we need a funnel of Christians into the we need a funnel of Christians into the Ivy League. And so we've got to create Ivy League. And so we've got to create Ivy League. And so we've got to create that funnel. C we've got to do this. D that funnel. C we've got to do this. D that funnel. C we've got to do this. D we've got to do this. And so we had like we've got to do this. And so we had like we've got to do this. And so we had like a 10-point plan all with big actionable a 10-point plan all with big actionable a 10-point plan all with big actionable items. And so it's very it's very easy items. And so it's very it's very easy items. And so it's very it's very easy to say what's wrong. It's very hard to to say what's wrong. It's very hard to to say what's wrong. It's very hard to come up with a practical plan for what come up with a practical plan for what come up with a practical plan for what to do next. And Tim was was weighing in to do next. And Tim was was weighing in to do next. And Tim was was weighing in on that. Um and if he were it's hard to on that. Um and if he were it's hard to on that. Um and if he were it's hard to for me to know what he would be talking for me to know what he would be talking for me to know what he would be talking about if he were around today. Um he about if he were around today. Um he about if he were around today. Um he would be wrestling with um the rise of would be wrestling with um the rise of would be wrestling with um the rise of cruelty. I would say uh that you know I cruelty. I would say uh that you know I cruelty. I would say uh that you know I live in Washington DC and if you live live in Washington DC and if you live live in Washington DC and if you live here you know 20 30 40 50 people who've here you know 20 30 40 50 people who've here you know 20 30 40 50 people who've lost their jobs and in many cases their lost their jobs and in many cases their lost their jobs and in many cases their life projects uh many people say they life projects uh many people say they life projects uh many people say they were scientists they were doing research were scientists they were doing research were scientists they were doing research into this project or that their lab has into this project or that their lab has into this project or that their lab has been gutted they've been fired and the been gutted they've been fired and the been gutted they've been fired and the thing they dedicated their life to has thing they dedicated their life to has thing they dedicated their life to has it seems to be all going away it seems to be all going away it seems to be all going away and so that level of cruelty um to me and so that level of cruelty um to me and so that level of cruelty um to me for no real money saving. Um and even for no real money saving. Um and even for no real money saving. Um and even like USAD, one of the other guys in our like USAD, one of the other guys in our like USAD, one of the other guys in our men's group was a guy named Michael men's group was a guy named Michael men's group was a guy named Michael Gerson who was President George W.

Gerson who was President George W. Gerson who was President George W. Bush's chief speech writer and he was Bush's chief speech writer and he was Bush's chief speech writer and he was instrumental in creating PEPFAR, the instrumental in creating PEPFAR, the instrumental in creating PEPFAR, the president's HIV initiative in Africa. president's HIV initiative in Africa. president's HIV initiative in Africa. And I went to Africa with Mike. Um, and And I went to Africa with Mike. Um, and And I went to Africa with Mike. Um, and where before uh I watched people die. where before uh I watched people die. where before uh I watched people die. Uh, and after H at PEPAR, going to the Uh, and after H at PEPAR, going to the Uh, and after H at PEPAR, going to the hospital was like going to the CVS, the hospital was like going to the CVS, the hospital was like going to the CVS, the drugstore. You would you would get your drugstore. You would you would get your drugstore. You would you would get your drugs and you'd live. And so I saw drugs and you'd live. And so I saw drugs and you'd live. And so I saw America save 25 million lives in Africa. America save 25 million lives in Africa. America save 25 million lives in Africa. And it was such a proud moment to be an And it was such a proud moment to be an And it was such a proud moment to be an American. American. American. And Mike was part of that. So Mike could And Mike was part of that. So Mike could And Mike was part of that. So Mike could say, "I was part of a program that saved say, "I was part of a program that saved say, "I was part of a program that saved 25 million lives." And that's been 25 million lives." And that's been 25 million lives." And that's been gutted and Mike is not here to see that. gutted and Mike is not here to see that. gutted and Mike is not here to see that. Maybe that's a good thing. And I think Maybe that's a good thing. And I think Maybe that's a good thing. And I think Tim would also be wondering about, you Tim would also be wondering about, you Tim would also be wondering about, you know, what's what are we called to do in know, what's what are we called to do in know, what's what are we called to do in the world if not spend a few bucks and the world if not spend a few bucks and the world if not spend a few bucks and save 25 million lives? And and so I save 25 million lives? And and so I save 25 million lives? And and so I think that's a a moral turn that he think that's a a moral turn that he think that's a a moral turn that he would want to figure out. would want to figure out. would want to figure out. Well, that coincides sort of with the Well, that coincides sort of with the Well, that coincides sort of with the arc of your career as well. you know, arc of your career as well. you know, arc of your career as well. you know, you're still political commentator, you're still political commentator, you're still political commentator, cultural commentator, but you know, my cultural commentator, but you know, my cultural commentator, but you know, my sense of the body of your work over the sense of the body of your work over the sense of the body of your work over the decades and we're all changing and decades and we're all changing and decades and we're all changing and evolving is you become much more evolving is you become much more evolving is you become much more concerned or focused on the moral and concerned or focused on the moral and concerned or focused on the moral and the the social issues and have had a lot the the social issues and have had a lot the the social issues and have had a lot to say to the church. You know, as to say to the church. You know, as to say to the church. You know, as somebody who's fairly new to it in the somebody who's fairly new to it in the somebody who's fairly new to it in the last 1015 years, um a lot to say about last 1015 years, um a lot to say about last 1015 years, um a lot to say about the church too and have written very the church too and have written very the church too and have written very effectively on that. Um what unexplored effectively on that. Um what unexplored effectively on that. Um what unexplored territory

territory territory are you interested in in pursuing like are you interested in in pursuing like are you interested in in pursuing like when you think about the future where when you think about the future where when you think about the future where would you like to make a contribution would you like to make a contribution would you like to make a contribution and then how would you like to make it and then how would you like to make it and then how would you like to make it well the book I'm just starting is on well the book I'm just starting is on well the book I'm just starting is on motivation and desire uh and I've come motivation and desire uh and I've come motivation and desire uh and I've come to believe which is an obvious point to believe which is an obvious point to believe which is an obvious point which is I think is an obvious point which is I think is an obvious point which is I think is an obvious point which is that we overvalue intelligence which is that we overvalue intelligence which is that we overvalue intelligence in our society we sort people by college in our society we sort people by college in our society we sort people by college by how smart they are and how good they by how smart they are and how good they by how smart they are and how good they are in academic settings but the most are in academic settings but the most are in academic settings but the most important quality to have in my view is important quality to have in my view is important quality to have in my view is determination it's desire higher. It's determination it's desire higher. It's determination it's desire higher. It's the ability to really the willingness to the ability to really the willingness to the ability to really the willingness to walk through walls all and the the walk through walls all and the the walk through walls all and the the willingness as we talked with Tim Keller willingness as we talked with Tim Keller willingness as we talked with Tim Keller to be different at 30 than you were at to be different at 30 than you were at to be different at 30 than you were at 20, different at 40 than you were at 30, 20, different at 40 than you were at 30, 20, different at 40 than you were at 30, different at 60 than you were at 50. different at 60 than you were at 50. different at 60 than you were at 50. It's just the ability to just keep going It's just the ability to just keep going It's just the ability to just keep going forward and growing and growing and forward and growing and growing and forward and growing and growing and growing and learning and learning and growing and learning and learning and growing and learning and learning and learning. And that takes desire and learning. And that takes desire and learning. And that takes desire and motivation. And we know a lot about motivation. And we know a lot about motivation. And we know a lot about cognition, how we think, the cognition, how we think, the cognition, how we think, the decision-making process. Danny Conorman decision-making process. Danny Conorman decision-making process. Danny Conorman wrote thinking fast and slow. We know a wrote thinking fast and slow. We know a wrote thinking fast and slow. We know a lot about emotion, lot about emotion, lot about emotion, uh, how our emotional lives work, where uh, how our emotional lives work, where uh, how our emotional lives work, where emotions come from, but we don't know emotions come from, but we don't know emotions come from, but we don't know much about what they call conation, much about what they call conation, much about what they call conation, which is a word we don't even use.

which is a word we don't even use. which is a word we don't even use. Yeah. I don't even know what that word Yeah. I don't even know what that word Yeah. I don't even know what that word means. means. means. The it's it means drive and motivation. The it's it means drive and motivation. The it's it means drive and motivation. And it comes from the the our reasoning And it comes from the the our reasoning And it comes from the the our reasoning process is sort of mostly in the process is sort of mostly in the process is sort of mostly in the prefrontal cortex in the front of our prefrontal cortex in the front of our prefrontal cortex in the front of our brain. our emotional processes are down brain. our emotional processes are down brain. our emotional processes are down somewhat in the amydala and other places somewhat in the amydala and other places somewhat in the amydala and other places but there's the midbrain which is where but there's the midbrain which is where but there's the midbrain which is where the reward centers are where dopamine the reward centers are where dopamine the reward centers are where dopamine happens and so I want to know like happens and so I want to know like happens and so I want to know like motivations are odd like why do I desire motivations are odd like why do I desire motivations are odd like why do I desire some things and not others why do I love some things and not others why do I love some things and not others why do I love the woman who's my wife but not somebody the woman who's my wife but not somebody the woman who's my wife but not somebody else why do I I like I like shrimp but I else why do I I like I like shrimp but I else why do I I like I like shrimp but I don't like scallops like why is that don't like scallops like why is that don't like scallops like why is that like like like and why are my motives so mixed there's and why are my motives so mixed there's and why are my motives so mixed there's also that also that also that why or what is the deepest passion of my why or what is the deepest passion of my why or what is the deepest passion of my soul. I had a friend who was a soul. I had a friend who was a soul. I had a friend who was a philosopher named Leon Cass who said philosopher named Leon Cass who said philosopher named Leon Cass who said people are not determined by their IQ, people are not determined by their IQ, people are not determined by their IQ, by their heights, by their skin color, by their heights, by their skin color, by their heights, by their skin color, by their ethnicity. by their ethnicity. by their ethnicity. People are determined and can be sorted People are determined and can be sorted People are determined and can be sorted by the ruling passion of their soul. by the ruling passion of their soul. by the ruling passion of their soul. Some people their ruling passion is for Some people their ruling passion is for Some people their ruling passion is for understanding.

understanding. understanding. Some people the ruling passion is for Some people the ruling passion is for Some people the ruling passion is for belonging. Some people the ruling belonging. Some people the ruling belonging. Some people the ruling passion is for pleasure. passion is for pleasure. passion is for pleasure. uh and to ask yourself, what is the uh and to ask yourself, what is the uh and to ask yourself, what is the ruling passion of my soul? What do I ruling passion of my soul? What do I ruling passion of my soul? What do I really want to be doing? And if you really want to be doing? And if you really want to be doing? And if you don't find that ruling passion, you'll don't find that ruling passion, you'll don't find that ruling passion, you'll do what the world tells you to do, and do what the world tells you to do, and do what the world tells you to do, and you'll want what the world tells you to you'll want what the world tells you to you'll want what the world tells you to want. And that's a good way to half live want. And that's a good way to half live want. And that's a good way to half live your life. It's a half it's a good way your life. It's a half it's a good way your life. It's a half it's a good way to answer a lot of false calls, which is to answer a lot of false calls, which is to answer a lot of false calls, which is um oh, the world wants me to be a um oh, the world wants me to be a um oh, the world wants me to be a banker, but then 10 years later, I'm banker, but then 10 years later, I'm banker, but then 10 years later, I'm kind of bored being a banker, and the kind of bored being a banker, and the kind of bored being a banker, and the world wants me to be whatever and a world wants me to be whatever and a world wants me to be whatever and a journalist, but I'm kind of bored. journalist, but I'm kind of bored. journalist, but I'm kind of bored. that's really not what I wanted. And if that's really not what I wanted. And if that's really not what I wanted. And if you don't find the ruling passion of you don't find the ruling passion of you don't find the ruling passion of your soul, it'll be reflected in your your soul, it'll be reflected in your your soul, it'll be reflected in your work cuz you won't have the energy and work cuz you won't have the energy and work cuz you won't have the energy and the motivation just to be in it the motivation just to be in it the motivation just to be in it wholeheartedly. Uh and so I'm trying to wholeheartedly. Uh and so I'm trying to wholeheartedly. Uh and so I'm trying to figure out where how do you where does figure out where how do you where does figure out where how do you where does motivation come from? How do we can we motivation come from? How do we can we motivation come from? How do we can we change what we want? Can we inflate our change what we want? Can we inflate our change what we want? Can we inflate our or inflame our urgency? How do you spot or inflame our urgency? How do you spot or inflame our urgency? How do you spot somebody who has high motivation? How do somebody who has high motivation? How do somebody who has high motivation? How do you spot somebody who doesn't? How do you spot somebody who doesn't? How do you spot somebody who doesn't? How do you find your passion? If you're talking you find your passion? If you're talking you find your passion? If you're talking to a kid who doesn't know what he wants, to a kid who doesn't know what he wants, to a kid who doesn't know what he wants, how do you find a c a passion? So, these how do you find a c a passion? So, these how do you find a c a passion? So, these are the questions I'm asking and I don't are the questions I'm asking and I don't are the questions I'm asking and I don't have answers yet, but have answers yet, but have answers yet, but by the fall of 2027, by the fall of 2027, by the fall of 2027, the next project, the next project, the next project, it'll be out the fall of 2027, so I it'll be out the fall of 2027, so I it'll be out the fall of 2027, so I better come up with answers by then.

better come up with answers by then. better come up with answers by then. What is David? What's a question that What is David? What's a question that What is David? What's a question that nobody ever asked you that you wish nobody ever asked you that you wish nobody ever asked you that you wish somebody would ask you? somebody would ask you? somebody would ask you? That's a good question. Um, I I can That's a good question. Um, I I can That's a good question. Um, I I can think of a lot of questions where I wish think of a lot of questions where I wish think of a lot of questions where I wish nobody would ask me, but nobody would ask me, but nobody would ask me, but Yeah. I can't come up with one right off Yeah. I can't come up with one right off Yeah. I can't come up with one right off the top of my head. Um uh the top of my head. Um uh the top of my head. Um uh I I've got one for you. Okay. What What I I've got one for you. Okay. What What I I've got one for you. Okay. What What do you fear where we start? do you fear where we start? do you fear where we start? Yeah. Um I'll tell you what I used to Yeah. Um I'll tell you what I used to Yeah. Um I'll tell you what I used to fear and I I still fear it, but I fear a fear and I I still fear it, but I fear a fear and I I still fear it, but I fear a little less. I think I used to have a little less. I think I used to have a little less. I think I used to have a fear of intimacy. fear of intimacy. fear of intimacy. Uh and so I was the kind of guy nobody Uh and so I was the kind of guy nobody Uh and so I was the kind of guy nobody confided in because I was sending off confided in because I was sending off confided in because I was sending off subtle signals that I'm really not subtle signals that I'm really not subtle signals that I'm really not emotionally available for you. I'm I'm emotionally available for you. I'm I'm emotionally available for you. I'm I'm and if you present me with a problem, I and if you present me with a problem, I and if you present me with a problem, I don't know what to say. So, I'm anxious. don't know what to say. So, I'm anxious. don't know what to say. So, I'm anxious. And I've I hoped over the last um 10 And I've I hoped over the last um 10 And I've I hoped over the last um 10 years I've become a little more years I've become a little more years I've become a little more approachable, a little more vulnerable, approachable, a little more vulnerable, approachable, a little more vulnerable, a little more with a capacity for a little more with a capacity for a little more with a capacity for intimate. It helps to have a wonderful intimate. It helps to have a wonderful intimate. It helps to have a wonderful marriage to a wonderful woman who marriage to a wonderful woman who marriage to a wonderful woman who demands intimacy. And I have friends demands intimacy. And I have friends demands intimacy. And I have friends who, you know, they beam love at you and who, you know, they beam love at you and who, you know, they beam love at you and they want it beamed back. But it's still they want it beamed back. But it's still they want it beamed back. But it's still not my natural affect.

not my natural affect. not my natural affect. uh my natural uh my natural uh my natural my natural posture is one of reserve my natural posture is one of reserve my natural posture is one of reserve and um I I hope to grow in this and um I I hope to grow in this and um I I hope to grow in this direction. I've I've made some progress. direction. I've I've made some progress. direction. I've I've made some progress. I was at a conference in Nantucket and I was at a conference in Nantucket and I was at a conference in Nantucket and the speaker we were in a audience of the speaker we were in a audience of the speaker we were in a audience of maybe 500 people and the speaker gave us maybe 500 people and the speaker gave us maybe 500 people and the speaker gave us all a piece of paper with and on the all a piece of paper with and on the all a piece of paper with and on the piece of paper were lyrics to a love piece of paper were lyrics to a love piece of paper were lyrics to a love song and the speaker says to the whole song and the speaker says to the whole song and the speaker says to the whole group, "Okay, find somebody in this group, "Okay, find somebody in this group, "Okay, find somebody in this audience you don't know. gaze into their audience you don't know. gaze into their audience you don't know. gaze into their eyes and sing the love song to them. And eyes and sing the love song to them. And eyes and sing the love song to them. And if you had told me to do that 15 years if you had told me to do that 15 years if you had told me to do that 15 years ago, I would have spontaneously ago, I would have spontaneously ago, I would have spontaneously combusted. But uh I found some guy. I combusted. But uh I found some guy. I combusted. But uh I found some guy. I gazed into his eyes. I sang the love gazed into his eyes. I sang the love gazed into his eyes. I sang the love song to him. And there were no sparks. song to him. And there were no sparks. song to him. And there were no sparks. There's no chemistry between us. But so There's no chemistry between us. But so There's no chemistry between us. But so we didn't fall in love. But uh but it we didn't fall in love. But uh but it we didn't fall in love. But uh but it was a sign that you know you can was a sign that you know you can was a sign that you know you can emotionally change a little over the emotionally change a little over the emotionally change a little over the course of your life. And I I am a course of your life. And I I am a course of your life. And I I am a developmental psychologist used to think developmental psychologist used to think developmental psychologist used to think that we we grow up at age 21 and then we that we we grow up at age 21 and then we that we we grow up at age 21 and then we are who we are. You can't really change are who we are. You can't really change are who we are. You can't really change an adult. I totally totally disagree an adult. I totally totally disagree an adult. I totally totally disagree with that. And I can if you know when my with that. And I can if you know when my with that. And I can if you know when my wife looks at video of me and from 20 wife looks at video of me and from 20 wife looks at video of me and from 20 years ago, we were we've been married 8 years ago, we were we've been married 8 years ago, we were we've been married 8 years and she says, "Well, I wouldn't years and she says, "Well, I wouldn't years and she says, "Well, I wouldn't have married that guy."

have married that guy." have married that guy." And and so, you know, we soften and And and so, you know, we soften and And and so, you know, we soften and change and hopefully expand uh through change and hopefully expand uh through change and hopefully expand uh through life. And I'm a believer in accelerating life. And I'm a believer in accelerating life. And I'm a believer in accelerating change as the years go by. change as the years go by. change as the years go by. Well, I'm with you on that. I I am uh I Well, I'm with you on that. I I am uh I Well, I'm with you on that. I I am uh I just had a big birthday, new decade, 60. just had a big birthday, new decade, 60. just had a big birthday, new decade, 60. And uh I'm committed to growth and And uh I'm committed to growth and And uh I'm committed to growth and learning. And you always kind of hope learning. And you always kind of hope learning. And you always kind of hope you've arrived. And it's like, yeah, you've arrived. And it's like, yeah, you've arrived. And it's like, yeah, there's no arriving. But it's it's what there's no arriving. But it's it's what there's no arriving. But it's it's what what I see in your work. It's what we what I see in your work. It's what we what I see in your work. It's what we see in Keller, that curiosity, you know, see in Keller, that curiosity, you know, see in Keller, that curiosity, you know, in his case, which he carried through in his case, which he carried through in his case, which he carried through with him to the very end of his life, with him to the very end of his life, with him to the very end of his life, which I think makes life beautiful. Uh which I think makes life beautiful. Uh which I think makes life beautiful. Uh David, you've got tens of thousands of David, you've got tens of thousands of David, you've got tens of thousands of church leaders listening and watching church leaders listening and watching church leaders listening and watching right now and you've written about this right now and you've written about this right now and you've written about this um in your various outlets, um in your various outlets, um in your various outlets, but if you wished one or two things for but if you wished one or two things for but if you wished one or two things for the capital C church and you're talking the capital C church and you're talking the capital C church and you're talking to a lot of non-denominational to a lot of non-denominational to a lot of non-denominational megaurch pastors, influential pastors, megaurch pastors, influential pastors, megaurch pastors, influential pastors, what do you wish we would do in this what do you wish we would do in this what do you wish we would do in this cultural moment? cultural moment? cultural moment? What's your advice to us? You know, I What's your advice to us? You know, I What's your advice to us? You know, I think I the first thing I would say is think I the first thing I would say is think I the first thing I would say is uh be not afraid.

uh be not afraid. uh be not afraid. That um a lot of church leaders feel in That um a lot of church leaders feel in That um a lot of church leaders feel in my experience feel besieged. my experience feel besieged. my experience feel besieged. And a lot are struggling. It's hard. And a lot are struggling. It's hard. And a lot are struggling. It's hard. It's exhausting. Their congregations are It's exhausting. Their congregations are It's exhausting. Their congregations are dividing over this and that. Uh and yet dividing over this and that. Uh and yet dividing over this and that. Uh and yet from the story I've lived in the last 15 from the story I've lived in the last 15 from the story I've lived in the last 15 years, I would tell church leaders as I years, I would tell church leaders as I years, I would tell church leaders as I tell Christian college leaders, you have tell Christian college leaders, you have tell Christian college leaders, you have what the world is longing for. what the world is longing for. what the world is longing for. You have a spiritual formula. You have a You have a spiritual formula. You have a You have a spiritual formula. You have a body of spiritual wisdom. You have a body of spiritual wisdom. You have a body of spiritual wisdom. You have a focus on the health of the soul. focus on the health of the soul. focus on the health of the soul. And you also have an intentional way to And you also have an intentional way to And you also have an intentional way to live. live. live. And I can tell you that having as And I can tell you that having as And I can tell you that having as someone who teaches in secular schools, someone who teaches in secular schools, someone who teaches in secular schools, my students are desperate for that. my students are desperate for that. my students are desperate for that. Uh and they want they want moral Uh and they want they want moral Uh and they want they want moral formation. They want somebody to speak formation. They want somebody to speak formation. They want somebody to speak into the yearnings, the spiritual into the yearnings, the spiritual into the yearnings, the spiritual yearnings of their life. They want yearnings of their life. They want yearnings of their life. They want someone who will offer them a coherent someone who will offer them a coherent someone who will offer them a coherent moral order. There was a philosopher moral order. There was a philosopher moral order. There was a philosopher named or a historian named George named or a historian named George named or a historian named George Marsden who wrote that what gave um Marsden who wrote that what gave um Marsden who wrote that what gave um Martin Luther King's rhetoric such force Martin Luther King's rhetoric such force Martin Luther King's rhetoric such force was his belief that no moral law is was his belief that no moral law is was his belief that no moral law is baked into the fabric of the universe.

baked into the fabric of the universe. baked into the fabric of the universe. That segregation is not just wrong some That segregation is not just wrong some That segregation is not just wrong some of the time. It's always wrong. Slavery of the time. It's always wrong. Slavery of the time. It's always wrong. Slavery is always wrong. Betrayal is always is always wrong. Betrayal is always is always wrong. Betrayal is always wrong. wrong. wrong. And I think one of the causes of our And I think one of the causes of our And I think one of the causes of our loneliness is not just so social loneliness is not just so social loneliness is not just so social disconnection. It's what you might call disconnection. It's what you might call disconnection. It's what you might call the privatization of morality. We've the privatization of morality. We've the privatization of morality. We've told generations of kids, come up with told generations of kids, come up with told generations of kids, come up with your own values. Come up with your own your own values. Come up with your own your own values. Come up with your own truth. And a if unless your name is truth. And a if unless your name is truth. And a if unless your name is Aristotle, you probably can't do it. But Aristotle, you probably can't do it. But Aristotle, you probably can't do it. But B, you don't have the you don't live B, you don't have the you don't live B, you don't have the you don't live within a moral order. And a guy a within a moral order. And a guy a within a moral order. And a guy a columnist named Walter Litman saw this columnist named Walter Litman saw this columnist named Walter Litman saw this coming as early as 1955. Have you read a coming as early as 1955. Have you read a coming as early as 1955. Have you read a book called the public philosophy? And book called the public philosophy? And book called the public philosophy? And he wrote that if what is right and wrong he wrote that if what is right and wrong he wrote that if what is right and wrong is just what each individual gets to is just what each individual gets to is just what each individual gets to decide based on his or her own feelings, decide based on his or her own feelings, decide based on his or her own feelings, we have left the realm of civilization. we have left the realm of civilization. we have left the realm of civilization. And I think we've left that realm. We're And I think we've left that realm. We're And I think we've left that realm. We're all sort of in a moral universe of one. all sort of in a moral universe of one. all sort of in a moral universe of one. And when I see church leaders, I see And when I see church leaders, I see And when I see church leaders, I see people who have the language of of sin, people who have the language of of sin, people who have the language of of sin, have the language of of redemption, have have the language of of redemption, have have the language of of redemption, have the language of grace. And these even the language of grace. And these even the language of grace. And these even these words and the meanings behind them these words and the meanings behind them these words and the meanings behind them are powerful resources that are absent are powerful resources that are absent are powerful resources that are absent in the public sphere.

in the public sphere. in the public sphere. And so when I guess I would tell the And so when I guess I would tell the And so when I guess I would tell the church leaders, we need you in the church leaders, we need you in the church leaders, we need you in the world, the public world as as as world, the public world as as as world, the public world as as as people willing to have moral people willing to have moral people willing to have moral conversations. In my view, American conversations. In my view, American conversations. In my view, American society is overpoliticized and society is overpoliticized and society is overpoliticized and undermoralized. undermoralized. undermoralized. We talk too much about who's in the We talk too much about who's in the We talk too much about who's in the White House and not enough about how to White House and not enough about how to White House and not enough about how to be a good person. How do you sit with be a good person. How do you sit with be a good person. How do you sit with someone? How do you sit with a widow? someone? How do you sit with a widow? someone? How do you sit with a widow? Uh you know, how do you be a friend? And Uh you know, how do you be a friend? And Uh you know, how do you be a friend? And I found in the Christian world so much I found in the Christian world so much I found in the Christian world so much thought and practical application about, thought and practical application about, thought and practical application about, you know, how to be a slightly better you know, how to be a slightly better you know, how to be a slightly better person. And our our, as I said, our person. And our our, as I said, our person. And our our, as I said, our secular schools used to be all about secular schools used to be all about secular schools used to be all about that, but now they're not. that, but now they're not. that, but now they're not. Yeah. The liberal arts education is Yeah. The liberal arts education is Yeah. The liberal arts education is dying a a death in our lifetime. And so dying a a death in our lifetime. And so dying a a death in our lifetime. And so if you could be a force for I sometimes if you could be a force for I sometimes if you could be a force for I sometimes think there's a a um think there's a a um think there's a a um great forces of dehumanization in our great forces of dehumanization in our great forces of dehumanization in our culture like technology, culture like technology, culture like technology, capitalism, brutality of our politics capitalism, brutality of our politics capitalism, brutality of our politics and then there are some forces of and then there are some forces of and then there are some forces of humanization and Tim Keller was a force humanization and Tim Keller was a force humanization and Tim Keller was a force for humanization. I think the church can for humanization. I think the church can for humanization. I think the church can be a force for humanization. I think be a force for humanization. I think be a force for humanization. I think poetry and literature can be a force for poetry and literature can be a force for poetry and literature can be a force for humanization. My wife edits, her name is humanization. My wife edits, her name is humanization. My wife edits, her name is Anne Snder, she edits a magazine called Anne Snder, she edits a magazine called Anne Snder, she edits a magazine called Comment and the tagline of Comment is Comment and the tagline of Comment is Comment and the tagline of Comment is public theology for the common good. And public theology for the common good. And public theology for the common good. And she talks about Christian humanism. And she talks about Christian humanism. And she talks about Christian humanism. And humanism is a scary word for some people humanism is a scary word for some people humanism is a scary word for some people because they think it's the opposite of because they think it's the opposite of because they think it's the opposite of faith. But it it's but for Christian faith. But it it's but for Christian faith. But it it's but for Christian humanism is the belief that etchomo here humanism is the belief that etchomo here humanism is the belief that etchomo here was Jesus was the the embodiment of of

was Jesus was the the embodiment of of was Jesus was the the embodiment of of what humanity should look like. what humanity should look like. what humanity should look like. And what do we take from this human And what do we take from this human And what do we take from this human example to reumanize our culture? Uh and example to reumanize our culture? Uh and example to reumanize our culture? Uh and so I would ask church leaders to do that so I would ask church leaders to do that so I would ask church leaders to do that just to be you know public in you know just to be you know public in you know just to be you know public in you know in the 50s there was Reinhold Neber in the 50s there was Reinhold Neber in the 50s there was Reinhold Neber there was Abraham Joshua Hashel there there was Abraham Joshua Hashel there there was Abraham Joshua Hashel there was father Jean there were church was father Jean there were church was father Jean there were church leaders who were famous in the public leaders who were famous in the public leaders who were famous in the public life because they were outspoken on life because they were outspoken on life because they were outspoken on public things in the last 15 years we public things in the last 15 years we public things in the last 15 years we had Tim Keller and I'm not sure there had Tim Keller and I'm not sure there had Tim Keller and I'm not sure there were too many other people who were were too many other people who were were too many other people who were famous in the public sphere as not as famous in the public sphere as not as famous in the public sphere as not as pomp as prophesiers, but just as people pomp as prophesiers, but just as people pomp as prophesiers, but just as people active in the public sphere using the active in the public sphere using the active in the public sphere using the resources of theology and 2,000 years of resources of theology and 2,000 years of resources of theology and 2,000 years of Christian social teaching to play a role Christian social teaching to play a role Christian social teaching to play a role in in common life. And I'd love to see in in common life. And I'd love to see in in common life. And I'd love to see church leaders do that again. church leaders do that again. church leaders do that again. I would love to see church leaders do I would love to see church leaders do I would love to see church leaders do that, too. But you got to get your reps that, too. But you got to get your reps that, too. But you got to get your reps in. You got to you got to spend 5 hours in. You got to you got to spend 5 hours in. You got to you got to spend 5 hours in the morning working on 1,200 words. in the morning working on 1,200 words. in the morning working on 1,200 words. you've got to read. I mean, I don't know you've got to read. I mean, I don't know you've got to read. I mean, I don't know how many books you've referenced in this how many books you've referenced in this how many books you've referenced in this hour and a bit we've spent together, but hour and a bit we've spent together, but hour and a bit we've spent together, but we're in the dozens. And the reality is we're in the dozens. And the reality is we're in the dozens. And the reality is most of us haven't read most of those most of us haven't read most of those most of us haven't read most of those books. But, you know, we have lots of books. But, you know, we have lots of books. But, you know, we have lots of time for our social media feeds, but not time for our social media feeds, but not time for our social media feeds, but not enough time for deep thought. And so, enough time for deep thought. And so, enough time for deep thought. And so, maybe it's a good challenge to the next maybe it's a good challenge to the next maybe it's a good challenge to the next generation of leaders. It's like get generation of leaders. It's like get generation of leaders. It's like get your get your deep thought reps in early your get your deep thought reps in early your get your deep thought reps in early and uh over a lifetime it goes very much and uh over a lifetime it goes very much and uh over a lifetime it goes very much in the direction your life has gone that in the direction your life has gone that in the direction your life has gone that Tim Kellers has gone and a handful of

Tim Kellers has gone and a handful of Tim Kellers has gone and a handful of others has. David, this has been others has. David, this has been others has. David, this has been fascinating conversation. I just can't fascinating conversation. I just can't fascinating conversation. I just can't thank you enough for uh coming battling thank you enough for uh coming battling thank you enough for uh coming battling through a few technical difficulties at through a few technical difficulties at through a few technical difficulties at the beginning. We got through it and uh the beginning. We got through it and uh the beginning. We got through it and uh this very very rich. I'd love for you to this very very rich. I'd love for you to this very very rich. I'd love for you to point leaders to you know where you're point leaders to you know where you're point leaders to you know where you're writing, where they can find your work, writing, where they can find your work, writing, where they can find your work, etc. I mean, obviously New York Times, etc. I mean, obviously New York Times, etc. I mean, obviously New York Times, Atlantic, and beyond, but are there Atlantic, and beyond, but are there Atlantic, and beyond, but are there particular sites you want to direct our particular sites you want to direct our particular sites you want to direct our attention to? attention to? attention to? Yeah. I mean, I write for, as you say, Yeah. I mean, I write for, as you say, Yeah. I mean, I write for, as you say, the New York Times, the Atlantic. They the New York Times, the Atlantic. They the New York Times, the Atlantic. They cost something to read, but they're well cost something to read, but they're well cost something to read, but they're well worth it. Uh, I have a new piece in my worth it. Uh, I have a new piece in my worth it. Uh, I have a new piece in my wife's magazine, so that was hard to get wife's magazine, so that was hard to get wife's magazine, so that was hard to get into called Comet Magazine. It's a book into called Comet Magazine. It's a book into called Comet Magazine. It's a book on why intelligence is not the same as on why intelligence is not the same as on why intelligence is not the same as wisdom. Uh, she has an issue on wisdom. Uh, she has an issue on wisdom. Uh, she has an issue on discernment. Um, and uh, other than discernment. Um, and uh, other than discernment. Um, and uh, other than that, I just write books and I talk. And that, I just write books and I talk. And that, I just write books and I talk. And so that that keeps I have about six jobs so that that keeps I have about six jobs so that that keeps I have about six jobs and keeps me busy. But so there's no and keeps me busy. But so there's no and keeps me busy. But so there's no other places you can find me other places you can find me other places you can find me fortunately. fortunately. fortunately. Well, this has been a real gift. I want Well, this has been a real gift. I want Well, this has been a real gift. I want to thank you so so much. Oh, to thank you so so much. Oh, to thank you so so much. Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Karen.