AI Friendship vs. Real Friends: Annie F. Downs on Why Christians Need to Stay in the Secular World

The brain does not turn off on its own, but The brain does not turn off on its own, but our system can be shut down our system can be shut down our system can be shut down . . . Ah, that's exactly it. Ah, that's exactly it. Ah, that's exactly it. Right? Yes, that is why when you lie down and fall asleep, you come to Right? Yes, that is why when you lie down and fall asleep, you come to think, "Ah, my brain doesn't stop, but the system can shut down think, "Ah, my brain doesn't stop, but the system can shut down ." And listen to me ." And listen to me ." And listen to me . When I . When I . When I wake up two hours after being lost in sadness, I think, "It's such a relief that I was wake up two hours after being lost in sadness, I think, "It's such a relief that I was wake up two hours after being lost in sadness, I think, "It's such a relief that I was healed, even if only for two hours healed, even if only for two hours ." Welcome to the Carrie New Hope Leadership Podcast Welcome to the Carrie New Hope Leadership Podcast . I am . I am . I am really glad to have you with us today. Annie F. really glad to have you with us today. Annie F. really glad to have you with us today. Annie F. Downes appeared on the podcast again and Downes appeared on the podcast again and shared a really exciting story . I enjoy hosting guests multiple times . I enjoy hosting guests multiple times . I enjoy hosting guests multiple times , and if I were to , and if I were to sit down with Annie for a long conversation sit down with Annie for a long conversation sit down with Annie for a long conversation , have dinner, or chat over , have dinner, or chat over , have dinner, or chat over coffee coffee coffee , I feel like we would have a conversation just like this , I feel like we would have a conversation just like this , I feel like we would have a conversation just like this . It covers various topics such as . It covers various topics such as the importance of forming a personal board of directors, what her board the importance of forming a personal board of directors, what her board looks like, what my board looks like, what my board looks like, what my board looks like, what to do looks like, what to do when you have no one to rely on in terms of leadership when you have no one to rely on in terms of leadership when you have no one to rely on in terms of leadership , the difference between AI friends , the difference between AI friends and real friends, and and real friends, and why Christians need to talk about the world why Christians need to talk about the world . . . Of course, I Of course, I Of course, I know this is a controversial topic, but I know this is a controversial topic, but I will share more stories, including all of this.

will share more stories, including all of this. Welcome to the podcast Welcome to the podcast Welcome to the podcast . If you are visiting for the first time, . If you are visiting for the first time, please press the subscribe or follow button. You can watch upcoming please press the subscribe or follow button. You can watch upcoming great episodes great episodes great episodes without missing out. without missing out. Get the latest news from Annie F. Downs. Annie is a New York Get the latest news from Annie F. Downs. Annie is a New York Times bestselling author, Times bestselling author, Times bestselling author, popular speaker, and successful popular speaker, and successful popular speaker, and successful podcast host, and is also a TV presenter currently podcast host, and is also a TV presenter currently podcast host, and is also a TV presenter currently residing in Nashville, Tennessee residing in Nashville, Tennessee . With her charming and candid . With her charming and candid style, she offers readers and listeners the style, she offers readers and listeners the style, she offers readers and listeners the comfort of an old friend comfort of an old friend comfort of an old friend . She is a co-founder of the . She is a co-founder of the That Sounds Fun Network, based on the flagship podcast That Sounds Fun . As I mentioned earlier . As I mentioned earlier , she is , she is , she is the host of the new TV talk show 'I Gotta Ask' the host of the new TV talk show 'I Gotta Ask' the host of the new TV talk show 'I Gotta Ask' and has released a new book titled 'Don't Let That Hold You Back' and has released a new book titled 'Don't Let That Hold You Back' and has released a new book titled 'Don't Let That Hold You Back' . It was . It was . It was published last week. published last week. published last week. And I also got married a while ago And I also got married a while ago And I also got married a while ago . So . So we talked about marriage, and we talked about marriage, and we talked about marriage, and she had a time to honestly open up about everything she had a time to honestly open up about everything . If you would like to see the broadcast content and . If you would like to see the broadcast content and hear more details, please hear more details, please visit theart of leadershipacademy.com visit theart of leadershipacademy.com . If you create a free account, . If you create a free account, you can watch all broadcasts, including this one. Now , let's listen to the conversation with Annie F. Downs , let's listen to the conversation with Annie F. Downs , let's listen to the conversation with Annie F. Downs . Annie, it feels . Annie, it feels like it's already been about 18 months since we last met, and it's been like it's already been about 18 months since we last met, and it's been quite a while since you appeared on the podcast quite a while since you appeared on the podcast quite a while since you appeared on the podcast . It . It . It feels like I'm living in a different world. So feels like I'm living in a different world. So many things have happened. That's right many things have happened. That's right . Life . Life . Life can change very rapidly in an instant, you know can change very rapidly in an instant, you know can change very rapidly in an instant, you know . yes that's right. I . yes that's right. I think the last time we talked was probably at an event where we participated as speakers together. We talked about single women at church

. yes . yes . . . Uh, something happened in your life Uh, something happened in your life Uh, something happened in your life . yes . yes . yes. So, . yes. So, not long after that, I met someone. not long after that, I met someone. not long after that, I met someone. His name is Jamie Ivy His name is Jamie Ivy His name is Jamie Ivy . He is a really wonderful person . He is a really wonderful person . He is a really wonderful person . And . And . And by the time people hear this story, by the time people hear this story, by the time people hear this story, we will have been married. Yes, we will have been married. Yes, we will have been married. Yes, we've been together for about a year and a half we've been together for about a year and a half we've been together for about a year and a half . I learned so much . I learned so much . I learned so much , Carrie. I will continue to , Carrie. I will continue to , Carrie. I will continue to learn. However, I am learn. However, I am learn. However, I am truly grateful to God for truly grateful to God for guiding me down this path and for letting me meet the person I will spend the rest of my life with . . and. First of all, congratulations. I and. First of all, congratulations. I am one of the many people who sincerely congratulate you. Tony and I dated for about 18 months and I dated for about 18 months and I dated for about 18 months . How did you know? . How did you know? . How did you know? How How How did you know that person was your soulmate? You have did you know that person was your soulmate? You have n't met anyone else either. That's right. That's right. n't met anyone else either. That's right. That's right. Um, you know, Carrie, the Um, you know, Carrie, the Um, you know, Carrie, the part that was a really big gift to me was that it was part that was a really big gift to me was that it was n't some grand sign appearing in the sky. It was n't the same as the moment God said "Yes." It was a very n't the same as the moment God said "Yes." It was a very rational, intellectual, and scientifically rational, intellectual, and scientifically rational, intellectual, and scientifically grounded decision grounded decision grounded decision . We both said, "We really . We both said, "We really . We both said, "We really love each other. Our community love each other. Our community love each other. Our community thinks this is good too. Our vision thinks this is good too. Our vision aligns. We are together. We aligns. We are together. We like what God is doing in our lives because of each other." That's what I like what God is doing in our lives because of each other." That's what I thought. Literally, thought. Literally, thought. Literally, Carrie, one day, right after I met him, I Carrie, one day, right after I met him, I

knew I wanted to marry him. It's like, "I've never met anyone like this before. never met anyone like this before. never met anyone like this before. I've never felt this way." That's what I I've never felt this way." That's what I I've never felt this way." That's what I thought. However, about thought. However, about thought. However, about a month before the engagement, I was looking at my phone and a month before the engagement, I was looking at my phone and saw where he was. "I don't want to remain unaware of where he saw where he was. "I don't want to remain unaware of where he is is is . I always . I always . I always want to know where he is." That thought crossed my mind want to know where he is." That thought crossed my mind . And then, " . And then, " I have two options I have two options I have two options ." I thought so. ." I thought so. ." I thought so. I could marry him, or I could I could marry him, or I could I could marry him, or I could stalk him. But if I do stalk him. But if I do stalk him. But if I do n't get married, n't get married, n't get married, someone else will marry that man someone else will marry that man someone else will marry that man , and I won't , and I won't , and I won't even know where he is. even know where he is. So that really relieved me So that really relieved me , Carrie. Because I’ve heard and , Carrie. Because I’ve heard and seen stories where people say things like, "I bought a shirt, and the Lord told me that a man would appear wearing the exact same shirt," just like prophecies in Christian fairy tales seen stories where people say things like, "I bought a shirt, and the Lord told me that a man would appear wearing the exact same shirt," just like prophecies in Christian fairy tales . But the man actually . But the man actually showed up… My experience was showed up… My experience was showed up… My experience was completely different. As we often completely different. As we often completely different. As we often say, this isn't a fairy tale, but it's a say, this isn't a fairy tale, but it's a say, this isn't a fairy tale, but it's a good story. good story. good story. We are We are two sinners who have read each other's warning labels over the past year and a half, and we have decided to accept these warning labels, two sinners who have read each other's warning labels over the past year and a half, and we have decided to accept these warning labels, love and cherish them, and love and cherish them, and love and cherish them, and grow together grow together grow together . I've never . I've never . I've never heard that before. I heard that before. I think that is the true meaning of dating, courtship, and engagement.

think that is the true meaning of dating, courtship, and engagement. I read your warning label I read your warning label I read your warning label , and you read my warning label too , and you read my warning label too , and you read my warning label too . I don't think I meant it that way when I was in my 20s with Tony . I don't think I meant it that way when I was in my 20s with Tony . Honestly, I'm not sure if I actually . Honestly, I'm not sure if I actually thought that, but the thought that, but the thought that, but the funny thing is that I had this feeling for a few weeks that " funny thing is that I had this feeling for a few weeks that " Ah, this woman is somehow different Ah, this woman is somehow different ." yes ." yes . . And it's surprising that that feeling hasn't gone away even now, 38 years And it's surprising that that feeling hasn't gone away even now, 38 years later later later . Let me ask you a question . Let me ask you a question . Let me ask you a question . You . You . You shared this story publicly, did shared this story publicly, did shared this story publicly, did n't you? You have been n't you? You have been n't you? You have been serving single people, and serving single people, and serving single people, and among them are those who want to remain single and those who do among them are those who want to remain single and those who do not. What was different from what you expected? The feeling you imagine in your head is different from the actual feeling, isn't it? I different from the actual feeling, isn't it? I think the most surprising thing was how naturally he blended into my life think the most surprising thing was how naturally he blended into my life . The feeling that "we have . The feeling that "we have become one family now" felt become one family now" felt become one family now" felt so natural so natural so natural . I think that was the part that surprised me . I think that was the part that surprised me . I think that was the part that surprised me . And I . And I think many of you will probably relate to this feeling. I told my friends Rebecca and Gabe that I hadn't realized today that I had fallen in love with someone.

Ah, it was only after that that I Ah, it was only after that that I realized it. Ah, so my realized it. Ah, so my realized it. Ah, so my biggest competitor to this man was biggest competitor to this man was how meaningful my life is and how meaningful my life is and how meaningful my life is and how much passion I pour into my work how much passion I pour into my work how much passion I pour into my work . And now, I’ve come to . And now, I’ve come to realize that Paul’s statement, “It is easier to be alone,” was not a joke. You can accomplish a lot when you are alone, and that is really true can accomplish a lot when you are alone, and that is really true . And I am grateful that it helped me correct the . And I am grateful that it helped me correct the idols I had regarding work idols I had regarding work . It is difficult to recognize . It is difficult to recognize . It is difficult to recognize such idols when working for God such idols when working for God such idols when working for God . " . " This is not an idol. I am This is not an idol. I am not trying to become famous, nor am I trying to become rich not trying to become famous, nor am I trying to become rich . I am trying to preach the gospel . I am trying to preach the gospel . I am trying to preach the gospel ." I came ." I came ." I came to realize that. So, that is to realize that. So, that is to realize that. So, that is n't an idol. What I'm n't an idol. What I'm n't an idol. What I'm talking about is my work; I'm talking about is my work; I'm trying to bring people closer to you. trying to bring people closer to you. But when someone appears, you But when someone appears, you But when someone appears, you feel a sense of tension, don't you? feel a sense of tension, don't you? Then God says, "Okay, let's talk about Then God says, "Okay, let's talk about what you felt and experienced, and what you felt and experienced, and what you felt and experienced, and what you were gaining from your work what you were gaining from your work ." ." That might be a legitimate desire That might be a legitimate desire That might be a legitimate desire , but fulfilling that desire through work , but fulfilling that desire through work is the wrong way to satisfy a legitimate desire.

is the wrong way to satisfy a legitimate desire. So, you didn't know that So, you didn't know that So, you didn't know that you loved your work until you fell into Jehovah's Witnesses you loved your work until you fell into Jehovah's Witnesses . . Yes, that's 100% correct. That Yes, that's 100% correct. That Yes, that's 100% correct. That 's a really interesting story. Looking 's a really interesting story. Looking back on my life, and back on my life, and thinking about my marriage about 20 years ago, I thinking about my marriage about 20 years ago, I think work was a kind of vicarious affair for me. In other think work was a kind of vicarious affair for me. In other words, I wasn't chasing after other women words, I wasn't chasing after other women words, I wasn't chasing after other women ; I was just devoted to my laptop, ; I was just devoted to my laptop, ; I was just devoted to my laptop, volunteering, writing, and work volunteering, writing, and work volunteering, writing, and work . It . It . It was a really unhealthy relationship. was a really unhealthy relationship. was a really unhealthy relationship. However, I find it However, I find it really interesting that you mentioned the need for a center. Of course, really interesting that you mentioned the need for a center. Of course, Jesus is the center of my life Jesus is the center of my life Jesus is the center of my life . Everyone, try repeating after me . Everyone, try repeating after me . Everyone, try repeating after me . yes . yes . yes . . However, life is bound to have a center, However, life is bound to have a center, and that void must be and that void must be and that void must be filled with something. filled with something. So, do n't assume that something is wrong just because there isn't anything else. When you truly n't assume that something is wrong just because there isn't anything else. When you truly feel your calling and your purpose in life feel your calling and your purpose in life feel your calling and your purpose in life , especially regarding single life , especially regarding single life , especially regarding single life , what I want to say is that you should not let the , what I want to say is that you should not let the , what I want to say is that you should not let the fact of being single hold you back fact of being single hold you back fact of being single hold you back .

. There was a moment when the Lord changed my concept of singleness from 'this is who I am' to 'something the Lord has given me.' When I reached that turning point , I thought, 'Alright, let's , I thought, 'Alright, let's , I thought, 'Alright, let's run!' That thought crossed my mind run!' That thought crossed my mind run!' That thought crossed my mind . If this . If this . If this has a purpose and is not a coincidence, why am has a purpose and is not a coincidence, why am has a purpose and is not a coincidence, why am I not doing more I not doing more I not doing more ? I wanted to. But I was like an ? I wanted to. But I was like an ? I wanted to. But I was like an idol factory, so I could idol factory, so I could idol factory, so I could idolize anything. idolize anything. So, I didn't So, I didn't notice when it lost its balance notice when it lost its balance notice when it lost its balance . It just looked like success, . It just looked like success, . It just looked like success, or it looked like I was focusing more or it looked like I was focusing more or it looked like I was focusing more , or just... , or just... , or just... I made more things, was I made more things, was I made more things, was more active online, and more active online, and more active online, and produced more content. That produced more content. That produced more content. That isn't always a bad thing, but I feel like I haven't been isn't always a bad thing, but I feel like I haven't been isn't always a bad thing, but I feel like I haven't been using my mind in a healthy way using my mind in a healthy way using my mind in a healthy way . Now my . Now my . Now my mind is in a healthier state mind is in a healthier state mind is in a healthier state . And I think my . And I think my . And I think my mindset has improved a lot now mindset has improved a lot now mindset has improved a lot now , Carrie. Because , Carrie. Because , Carrie. Because now I say, "God, the now I say, "God, the now I say, "God, the first thing you hold me accountable for is the relationship between first thing you hold me accountable for is the relationship between myself and myself and myself and you." That's what I you." That's what I you." That's what I think. "Secondly, what think. "Secondly, what think. "Secondly, what God God God considers important is that Jehovah's Witnesses considers important is that Jehovah's Witnesses prosper in the relationships they will maintain for the rest of their lives prosper in the relationships they will maintain for the rest of their lives . Am I humanly . Am I humanly committed to him?

committed to him? committed to him? And now, the same applies to everyone else And now, the same applies to everyone else . Have you . Have you helped them prosper in any way helped them prosper in any way helped them prosper in any way ? For the first 45 years, there was ? For the first 45 years, there was ? For the first 45 years, there was no intermediate stage. no intermediate stage. no intermediate stage. You You You presented a really interesting perspective in the second point presented a really interesting perspective in the second point presented a really interesting perspective in the second point , which is , which is , which is hard to find in modern culture hard to find in modern culture hard to find in modern culture . I expected you to say that . I expected you to say that Jehovah's Witnesses Jehovah's Witnesses prosper in their marriages just as I prosper in my marriage now prosper in their marriages just as I prosper in my marriage now prosper in their marriages just as I prosper in my marriage now . Shall we . Shall we . Shall we take a closer look at this part for a moment? take a closer look at this part for a moment? Because we live in a culture that values ​​achievement, it seems many people do not think this way. What do you think about your job What do you think about your job What do you think about your job ? ? ? What do you think about your purpose? What do you think about your purpose? What do you think about your purpose? What do you think about your meaning What do you think about your meaning What do you think about your meaning ? ? ? What do you think about your marriage? What do you think about your marriage? What do you think about raising your children? All of these What do you think about raising your children? All of these things do not exist merely to satisfy me things do not exist merely to satisfy me . My job could become . My job could become very selfish if I left it alone, but by the very selfish if I left it alone, but by the time this broadcast airs, my wife..." time this broadcast airs, my wife..." Your role as a [husband/husband] will be to help your husband Your role as a [husband/husband] will be to help your husband Your role as a [husband/husband] will be to help your husband . Jehovah's . Jehovah's . Jehovah's Witnesses are thriving. yes Witnesses are thriving. yes Witnesses are thriving. yes . . . Wait a minute?

Wait a minute? There is a pastor I like, Pastor Micah Eldridge, who is also my friend in Omaha. He is a There is a pastor I like, Pastor Micah Eldridge, who is also my friend in Omaha. He is a person who serves at Life Gate Church person who serves at Life Gate Church person who serves at Life Gate Church , and he and his wife, , and he and his wife, , and he and his wife, Mrs. Sherin, said this to me Mrs. Sherin, said this to me Mrs. Sherin, said this to me . "This is . "This is . "This is n't 50/50. It's 100%. You'll be surprised to see n't 50/50. It's 100%. You'll be surprised to see n't 50/50. It's 100%. You'll be surprised to see how much your needs are met how much your needs are met ." "Carrie, let me tell you a story ." "Carrie, let me tell you a story . It's a . It's a . It's a thought that's been stuck in my head." Yeah, if you thought that's been stuck in my head." Yeah, if you thought that's been stuck in my head." Yeah, if you think about him more, your think about him more, your think about him more, your needs will be met. 'He's a DJ needs will be met. 'He's a DJ needs will be met. 'He's a DJ . JW is the drummer. Carrie, . JW is the drummer. Carrie, . JW is the drummer. Carrie, he's a really funny person. The he's a really funny person. The he's a really funny person. The counselor said he's like counselor said he's like counselor said he's like Christmas. He's the Christmas. He's the Christmas. He's the best. But best. But best. But after the wedding, we were moving his DJ equipment into the warehouse after the wedding, we were moving his DJ equipment into the warehouse after the wedding, we were moving his DJ equipment into the warehouse . As I was . As I was . As I was pushing a heavy cart, the Holy Spirit pushing a heavy cart, the Holy Spirit whispered to me.' If whispered to me.' If whispered to me.' If this were the rest of your life and he was this were the rest of your life and he was n't doing anything for you, but I n't doing anything for you, but I asked you to do this, would you still asked you to do this, would you still asked you to do this, would you still do it? I was pushing a cart in the warehouse when do it? I was pushing a cart in the warehouse when this question suddenly popped into my head.

this question suddenly popped into my head. Even if He does not serve you at all Even if He does not serve you at all Even if He does not serve you at all , if I were to , if I were to ask you to do something for Him for the rest of your life ask you to do something for Him for the rest of your life , would you do it , would you do it , would you do it ? 'I answered the Lord like this ? 'I answered the Lord like this ? 'I answered the Lord like this .' "Right now, it is .' "Right now, it is .' "Right now, it is so so so easy to answer. Yes, of course. I easy to answer. Yes, of course. I easy to answer. Yes, of course. I love Him. But I thought, ' love Him. But I thought, ' love Him. But I thought, ' Lord, I understand your words Lord, I understand your words Lord, I understand your words . If I were . If I were not served, but only served not served, but only served not served, but only served , would I be willing to do it when Jesus asked me to , would I be willing to do it when Jesus asked me to ?' And I thought, 'Ah And I thought, 'Ah , this relationship between God and Jesus , this relationship between God and Jesus is truly special. This is is truly special. This is is truly special. This is not the life I want. not the life I want. not the life I want. Jehovah's Witnesses are Jehovah's Witnesses are Jehovah's Witnesses are people with a beautiful heart of service people with a beautiful heart of service people with a beautiful heart of service . My life wo . My life wo . My life wo n't be like that.' But it was as if n't be like that.' But it was as if Jesus was asking, 'If the Jesus was asking, 'If the Jesus was asking, 'If the most extreme most extreme most extreme thing were to happen because I invited you, would you thing were to happen because I invited you, would you thing were to happen because I invited you, would you still remain?' still remain?' still remain?' That That That question was a great help to me question was a great help to me question was a great help to me ." ." ." Well, just like the saying 'in sickness and in health,' Well, just like the saying 'in sickness and in health,' in long-term relationships, there are bound to be in long-term relationships, there are bound to be moments when one person becomes heavily dependent on the other moments when one person becomes heavily dependent on the other . It's probably the . It's probably the . It's probably the same for both sides. We both same for both sides. We both same for both sides. We both travel frequently for business. There are probably travel frequently for business. There are probably many of you listening to our broadcast who have had similar experiences. Yes, because my husband is a musician. yes musician. yes . I came home yesterday, and my husband . I came home yesterday, and my husband . I came home yesterday, and my husband picked me up at the airport picked me up at the airport picked me up at the airport . He prepared a slow cooker for me . He prepared a slow cooker for me . He prepared a slow cooker for me , and while I was , and while I was , and while I was relaxing my muscles with a vibrating massager, relaxing my muscles with a vibrating massager, relaxing my muscles with a vibrating massager, my husband made dinner at home my husband made dinner at home my husband made dinner at home . My husband . My husband went on a business trip over the weekend.

went on a business trip over the weekend. went on a business trip over the weekend. So as soon as I got home, I So as soon as I got home, I So as soon as I got home, I prepared dinner for them. We are learning prepared dinner for them. We are learning prepared dinner for them. We are learning what kind of help we need when we are both exhausted what kind of help we need when we are both exhausted . It's a good thing. It's a good thing. We are trying. I'm We are trying. I'm We are trying. I'm still a beginner at dating, and I'm still a beginner at dating, and I'm still a beginner at dating, and I'm learning step by step. learning step by step. learning step by step. Actually, I think my wife is closer to you than me at home right now Actually, I think my wife is closer to you than me at home right now . To be honest . To be honest , she , she , she went to Nashville for an event, and I went to Nashville for an event, and I think she will be back home tomorrow. yes. Well, think she will be back home tomorrow. yes. Well, the internet is a place that is both interesting and the internet is a place that is both interesting and hostile. Do you think the hostile. Do you think the people who were rooting for you—since you were single for a long time and then suddenly fell in love and got married— people who were rooting for you—since you were single for a long time and then suddenly fell in love and got married— felt betrayed? felt betrayed? felt betrayed? Yes, I understand. You know that time when you watch someone Yes, I understand. You know that time when you watch someone succeed, someone you believed in with the hope that "If that person can do it, I can do it too ." As you do that, you end up seeing that person from a completely different perspective. However, for example, imagine that everyone lives in the same low-income neighborhood and a friend wins the lottery imagine that everyone lives in the same low-income neighborhood and a friend wins the lottery . Back then, we lived on nothing but rice and beans . Back then, we lived on nothing but rice and beans . Back then, we lived on nothing but rice and beans , so it must have been , so it must have been , so it must have been really hard to cheer for that friend.

really hard to cheer for that friend. really hard to cheer for that friend. And I don't think that single life is a And I don't think that single life is a life made of rice and beans, and that life made of rice and beans, and that life made of rice and beans, and that marriage is like a lottery marriage is like a lottery marriage is like a lottery . Of course, . Of course, . Of course, meeting Jehovah's Witnesses meeting Jehovah's Witnesses meeting Jehovah's Witnesses feels like winning the lottery. However, feels like winning the lottery. However, there are people who feel a sense of emptiness because they are not married, and there are people who feel a sense of emptiness because they are not married, and looking at me, they wonder, 'Will Annie be able to live like this for the rest of her life looking at me, they wonder, 'Will Annie be able to live like this for the rest of her life looking at me, they wonder, 'Will Annie be able to live like this for the rest of her life ?' There ?' There ?' There must have been people who thought that must have been people who thought that . But my story changed . But my story changed . But my story changed . Yeah, I mean... it's none of my business . Yeah, I mean... it's none of my business what people are saying behind my back what people are saying behind my back . However, . However, most of the messages I received were, "I'm most of the messages I received were, "I'm disappointed, but I'll be happy for you disappointed, but I'll be happy for you disappointed, but I'll be happy for you . I'm . I'm . I'm sorry for being disappointed." That sorry for being disappointed." That sorry for being disappointed." That was the content. I said, "Yes, I understand was the content. I said, "Yes, I understand was the content. I said, "Yes, I understand . Thank you for your effort." That's what I . Thank you for your effort." That's what I . Thank you for your effort." That's what I answered. Of course, there may be answered. Of course, there may be answered. Of course, there may be more stories I don't know, but I could more stories I don't know, but I could feel that everyone who contacted me was making an effort. feel that everyone who contacted me was making an effort. Trying to get pregnant is Trying to get pregnant is Trying to get pregnant is hard for anyone, hard for anyone, hard for anyone, Clary. This is especially true when you Clary. This is especially true when you Clary. This is especially true when you are trying to get pregnant and are invited to a baby shower are trying to get pregnant and are invited to a baby shower . When . When someone is hosting a retirement party for their 30th anniversary of ministry someone is hosting a retirement party for their 30th anniversary of ministry someone is hosting a retirement party for their 30th anniversary of ministry , and I am just , and I am just , and I am just entering my 20th year feeling entering my 20th year feeling lost about how to live my life ahead, we always feel like we are being invited to a gathering where others are celebrating getting what we want celebrating getting what we want .

. . This episode was prepared This episode was prepared with the sponsorship of Global Christian Relief (GCR) with the sponsorship of Global Christian Relief (GCR) . A persecuted . A persecuted . A persecuted church may feel distant to us church may feel distant to us church may feel distant to us . However, the global . However, the global . However, the global church is not a mere idea or church is not a mere idea or church is not a mere idea or concept, but one family concept, but one family concept, but one family . When a part of the body is in pain . When a part of the body is in pain . When a part of the body is in pain , we must , we must , we must not be bystanders. We must take not be bystanders. We must take not be bystanders. We must take action. action. action. So, I would like to talk So, I would like to talk about Global Christian Relief (GCR), a non-profit organization that you should know about about Global Christian Relief (GCR), a non-profit organization that you should know about . GCR is . GCR is . GCR is led by Brian Orm led by Brian Orm led by Brian Orm . Brian has been . Brian has been . Brian has been my friend for over 10 years, and I my friend for over 10 years, and I my friend for over 10 years, and I sincerely appreciate the way he leads GCR sincerely appreciate the way he leads GCR sincerely appreciate the way he leads GCR . He is helping . He is helping . He is helping persecuted brothers and sisters in Christ persecuted brothers and sisters in Christ know that they are not alone. know that they are not alone. GCR supports our church family in places where following Jesus GCR supports our church family in places where following Jesus GCR supports our church family in places where following Jesus requires great sacrifice requires great sacrifice . Yes, GCR (Global Christian Relief) is GCR (Global Christian Relief) is active in many countries, including Pakistan, Syria, India, and Iran. GCR active in many countries, including Pakistan, Syria, India, and Iran. GCR delivers the Bible to those who have difficulty accessing it, provides emergency relief when a crisis strikes, and offers long-term support to help the church survive and become stronger.

offers long-term support to help the church survive and become stronger. Supporting the global church is Supporting the global church is not simply sponsoring an organization, but helping brothers and not simply sponsoring an organization, but helping brothers and sisters who are like your family sisters who are like your family sisters who are like your family . Global . Global . Global Christian Relief is Christian Relief is Christian Relief is carrying out a truly influential ministry. carrying out a truly influential ministry. Please be sure to take a look. You can visit gcrelief.org Please be sure to take a look. You can visit gcrelief.org . Yes, it . Yes, it . Yes, it is gcrelief.org. And let me briefly talk about my is gcrelief.org. And let me briefly talk about my is gcrelief.org. And let me briefly talk about my new book, *AI and the Church of the Future* new book, *AI and the Church of the Future* . The book has been published and is currently being . The book has been published and is currently being shipped, and I am very happy to see that a shipped, and I am very happy to see that a shipped, and I am very happy to see that a conversation about this topic is starting in your church conversation about this topic is starting in your church . Now that this book has been released into the world and is in the . Now that this book has been released into the world and is in the hands of many people hands of many people hands of many people , there is one thing I would like to tell you , there is one thing I would like to tell you . This . This is not a book you read once and then stop reading. That ca is not a book you read once and then stop reading. That ca is not a book you read once and then stop reading. That ca n't be. Because the topic is too complicated n't be. Because the topic is too complicated n't be. Because the topic is too complicated . . . What is relevant this month is not always relevant six months later, or even on the What is relevant this month is not always relevant six months later, or even on the What is relevant this month is not always relevant six months later, or even on the day of publication day of publication day of publication . So, . So, if you purchase this book, you if you purchase this book, you if you purchase this book, you can also access the AI ​​Hub. AI can also access the AI ​​Hub. AI can also access the AI ​​Hub. AI Hub is an interactive tool that helps you analyze book content Hub is an interactive tool that helps you analyze book content Hub is an interactive tool that helps you analyze book content in depth with your team and check in depth with your team and check how prepared you are how prepared you are . We also provide a guided evaluation tool that allows you to . We also provide a guided evaluation tool that allows you to execute clear next steps together execute clear next steps together . The AI ​​Hub . The AI ​​Hub is updated regularly.

is updated regularly. is updated regularly. Of course, it cannot be said that the book contains all the latest information Of course, it cannot be said that the book contains all the latest information . Because it is a book about AI . Because it is a book about AI . No one has all the answers yet . No one has all the answers yet . However, I believe that your church may be better prepared to navigate this era than you think. believe that your church may be better prepared to navigate this era than you think. And my new book guides you to And my new book guides you to And my new book guides you to reach that stage reach that stage reach that stage . As the world . As the world . As the world becomes increasingly artificial, the becomes increasingly artificial, the becomes increasingly artificial, the church must become more human church must become more human church must become more human . The future of the church . The future of the church . The future of the church depends on human connection depends on human connection depends on human connection . So . So . So please buy this book at a bookstore right now please buy this book at a bookstore right now . This book will . This book will . This book will be a good starting point for you, and you can also check out all the latest information be a good starting point for you, and you can also check out all the latest information be a good starting point for you, and you can also check out all the latest information from the AI ​​Hub provided with the book from the AI ​​Hub provided with the book . I also wanted to hear about your brief stay in New York . You were a . You were a dual citizen of Nashville and New York, weren't you? dual citizen of Nashville and New York, weren't you? dual citizen of Nashville and New York, weren't you? Hmm, I was Hmm, I was Hmm, I was really curious about that story, and it turns out it's well captured in the new book, "Don't really curious about that story, and it turns out it's well captured in the new book, "Don't really curious about that story, and it turns out it's well captured in the new book, "Don't Let That Hold You Back." You have Let That Hold You Back." You have mentioned it a lot online, and mentioned it a lot online, and I have also spoken with you I have also spoken with you I have also spoken with you . First of all, what led you to go to New York . First of all, what led you to go to New York . First of all, what led you to go to New York ? ? ? And what did you learn on that journey And what did you learn on that journey And what did you learn on that journey ? Well, the reason I ended up going to New York was ? Well, the reason I ended up going to New York was because I felt like I was just dreaming about it but not actually doing anything. I've wanted to live in New York since I was 20, and I thought that if I had as much money as Jimmy Fallon, I would move wanted to live in New York since I was 20, and I thought that if I had as much money as Jimmy Fallon, I would move to New York right away to New York right away to New York right away . There was a perception that New York was . There was a perception that New York was . There was a perception that New York was expensive expensive . Since everyone else was saying that, I . Since everyone else was saying that, I . Since everyone else was saying that, I thought so too. I had never thought so too. I had never searched on Google or

searched on Google or properly investigated how much New York apartment rents were properly investigated how much New York apartment rents were properly investigated how much New York apartment rents were . I believed everything other people . I believed everything other people . I believed everything other people said said said . But . But . But a friend living in New York asked, "You a friend living in New York asked, "You a friend living in New York asked, "You said you wanted to live here, why said you wanted to live here, why said you wanted to live here, why don't you think about it seriously?" He encouraged me by don't you think about it seriously?" He encouraged me by don't you think about it seriously?" He encouraged me by saying that saying that saying that . So, come to think of it, I . So, come to think of it, I . So, come to think of it, I actually actually actually never thought about whether I could handle it. never thought about whether I could handle it. never thought about whether I could handle it. Then I thought, "Ah, if I Then I thought, "Ah, if I Then I thought, "Ah, if I save for 10 months, I can manage for about two months save for 10 months, I can manage for about two months ." I actually ." I actually saved for 10 months. I saved for 10 months. I also sold a lot of clothes from my closet. also sold a lot of clothes from my closet. also sold a lot of clothes from my closet. After obtaining the information, I was able to take a step After obtaining the information, I was able to take a step After obtaining the information, I was able to take a step toward the work I truly want to do toward the work I truly want to do . Carrie, I did that . Carrie, I did that . And . And . And then I met Seth Godin. then I met Seth Godin. I think I was about 20 years old? I think I was about 20 years old? He ran a program called Nano MBA He ran a program called Nano MBA , which was a course where you went to his office and , which was a course where you went to his office and learned about the business in depth for a week learned about the business in depth for a week . At the time, I was working at a non-profit . At the time, I was working at a non-profit . At the time, I was working at a non-profit organization, and organization, and everyone applying for this program was also from a non-profit organization everyone applying for this program was also from a non-profit organization . Carrie, have I ever told you about me and Seth . Carrie, have I ever told you about me and Seth ?

? No, there wasn't. I read the No, there wasn't. I read the part about Seth in your book, and I wondered, part about Seth in your book, and I wondered, part about Seth in your book, and I wondered, 'How did I not know we 'How did I not know we 'How did I not know we had such a mutual friend had such a mutual friend had such a mutual friend ?' I wanted to. He has ?' I wanted to. He has had a great influence on me from afar for a long time. I have known him for the past five years, had a great influence on me from afar for a long time. I have known him for the past five years, or perhaps even longer, and or perhaps even longer, and or perhaps even longer, and last year last year last year Tony and I had dinner with Seth and Helen in New York Tony and I had dinner with Seth and Helen in New York . It was a truly beautiful time . It was a truly beautiful time . Seth Godin? Tell me . Seth Godin? Tell me . Seth Godin? Tell me a little more about Seth Godin a little more about Seth Godin a little more about Seth Godin . I asked. . I asked. . I asked. Yes, you wrote about his book Yes, you wrote about his book Yes, you wrote about his book . They say that . They say that . They say that if you go to New York, you should definitely if you go to New York, you should definitely if you go to New York, you should definitely visit his wife, right visit his wife, right visit his wife, right ? yes ? yes ? yes . If you are going to New York, . If you are going to New York, . If you are going to New York, his wife runs a bakery called 'By the Way his wife runs a bakery called 'By the Way his wife runs a bakery called 'By the Way Bakery,' which Bakery,' which Bakery,' which has several branches and is has several branches and is has several branches and is really delicious. Seth really delicious. Seth packed up some By the Way products at home and brought them over, and when packed up some By the Way products at home and brought them over, and when I took my friends there, I took my friends there, I took my friends there, they all said, "It's truly legendary they all said, "It's truly legendary they all said, "It's truly legendary ." My friends did ." My friends did ." My friends did n't know. Seth often says that his wife is n't know. Seth often says that his wife is n't know. Seth often says that his wife is more famous than him thanks to the bakery more famous than him thanks to the bakery more famous than him thanks to the bakery . yes . yes . yes . So, we came up with a bakery name for our Nano MBA program . So, we came up with a bakery name for our Nano MBA program . . . You named it 'By the Way', You named it 'By the Way', You named it 'By the Way', right? yes right? yes right? yes . . . Why did you choose 'By the Way'? Why did you choose 'By the Way'? He suggested several names to all 15 people there He suggested several names to all 15 people there , and eventually, we decided on that name , and eventually, we decided on that name , and eventually, we decided on that name . It's really fascinating, isn't it?

. It's really fascinating, isn't it? . It's really fascinating, isn't it? Of course, it might have already been decided Of course, it might have already been decided Of course, it might have already been decided , and it might have actually been , and it might have actually been , and it might have actually been done that way, but I was there when that person done that way, but I was there when that person made the decision made the decision . When I applied for the Nano MBA . When I applied for the Nano MBA . When I applied for the Nano MBA , I , I applied online and made it to the in-person interview, but applied online and made it to the in-person interview, but then I thought, 'Oh, then I thought, 'Oh, then I thought, 'Oh, my.' I don't even live in New York my.' I don't even live in New York my.' I don't even live in New York . It's 2010 now . It's 2010 now . I had that thought. I . I had that thought. I thought, "I should take a plane to New York thought, "I should take a plane to New York ." I took the train to where Seth lives, and it was pouring ." I took the train to where Seth lives, and it was pouring ." I took the train to where Seth lives, and it was pouring rain rain rain . I was completely soaked . I was completely soaked . I was completely soaked when I arrived at his office when I arrived at his office when I arrived at his office . It . It . It was Carrie, but that couldn't be. It was was Carrie, but that couldn't be. It was enough to leave stained marks on the sofa. It enough to leave stained marks on the sofa. It means you are really soaked. means you are really soaked. means you are really soaked. That is how I ended up That is how I ended up That is how I ended up creating a story worth talking about for a lifetime. creating a story worth talking about for a lifetime. There's no way Seth Cohen would pick me without a reason. There's no way Seth Cohen would pick me without a reason. But I picked. Thanks to him, I was able to But I picked. Thanks to him, I was able to spend every day at his office for a week, and we have remained friends ever since. remained friends ever since. One of Seth's biggest strengths is that if someone One of Seth's biggest strengths is that if someone chooses to be friends with him, chooses to be friends with him, chooses to be friends with him, he also chooses to be friends with you he also chooses to be friends with you he also chooses to be friends with you . yes. . yes. . yes. And we kept in And we kept in And we kept in touch.

touch. touch. When I was in New York for two months in 2023, we When I was in New York for two months in 2023, we went out for coffee together once. I went out for coffee together once. I also had ice cream at Chelsea Market. also had ice cream at Chelsea Market. also had ice cream at Chelsea Market. Then I asked Seth, "By any chance..." Then I asked Seth, "By any chance..." Should I move here? Carrie, I was really scared Should I move here? Carrie, I was really scared . Because it was the . Because it was the first time I had ever said something like that out loud to someone. "Oh my god, this is first time I had ever said something like that out loud to someone. "Oh my god, this is really strange. I should really strange. I should really strange. I should n't say it out loud." So, "I n't say it out loud." So, "I 'm going to tell only Seth. I'm 'm going to tell only Seth. I'm 'm going to tell only Seth. I'm not going to tell anyone." That's what I said not going to tell anyone." That's what I said not going to tell anyone." That's what I said . "So," . "So," . "So," should I move here permanently? "I should I move here permanently? "I should I move here permanently? "I asked. Then Seth said, 'I do asked. Then Seth said, 'I do asked. Then Seth said, 'I do n't want you to do that n't want you to do that n't want you to do that .'" That's what they said. It seems like .'" That's what they said. It seems like living back and forth between Nashville and New York means something special to you . It would be good to keep it that way . It would be good to keep it that way . It would be good to keep it that way . " . " . " Why would he say that? It Why would he say that? It Why would he say that? It was really interesting advice. Seth was really interesting advice. Seth was weighing the pros and cons." Just... if I was weighing the pros and cons." Just... if I save about $50,000, will I be save about $50,000, will I be save about $50,000, will I be able to get an apartment next year? "I able to get an apartment next year? "I able to get an apartment next year? "I asked. I said, 'Ah, we all asked. I said, 'Ah, we all have $50,000 each, right?'" "That's what I have $50,000 each, right?'" "That's what I said. Let me just said. Let me just said. Let me just check. Yes, there it is check. Yes, there it is check. Yes, there it is . . And literally the very next And literally the very next day—probably while having lunch with a friend in New York—I mentioned it, and day—probably while having lunch with a friend in New York—I mentioned it, and my friend said, 'Actually, we my friend said, 'Actually, we moved out recently too, and we moved out recently too, and we moved out recently too, and we need a tenant.'" It fits your budget need a tenant.'" It fits your budget need a tenant.'" It fits your budget , do you want to live in our apartment , do you want to live in our apartment , do you want to live in our apartment ? "That's what he's asking.

? "That's what he's asking. ? "That's what he's asking. So I..." uh, I ca So I..." uh, I ca So I..." uh, I ca n't just leave. n't just leave. When God gives you such a task, you need someone to contribute to the maintenance fees until you are ready to sell the house, you know When God gives you such a task, you need someone to contribute to the maintenance fees until you are ready to sell the house, you know . "That's what I . "That's what I thought. And thanks to that, I thought. And thanks to that, I thought. And thanks to that, I had some breathing room in my budget, and it had some breathing room in my budget, and it cost much less than my husband had anticipated. cost much less than my husband had anticipated. That is how I ended up living there for two That is how I ended up living there for two That is how I ended up living there for two more years, and I was able to more years, and I was able to more years, and I was able to stay in the apartment throughout 2024. stay in the apartment throughout 2024. stay in the apartment throughout 2024. Oh, and you Oh, and you served with Pastor John Tyson at Church of the City. served with Pastor John Tyson at Church of the City. Ah, Pastor John Tyson is like a gateway who introduced me to the Ah, Pastor John Tyson is like a gateway who introduced me to the Ah, Pastor John Tyson is like a gateway who introduced me to the best pastors I met at that church best pastors I met at that church . He is truly amazing . He is truly amazing . And there are so many . And there are so many . And there are so many excellent staff members there, too excellent staff members there, too excellent staff members there, too . There were so many wonderful teachers at that church . There were so many wonderful teachers at that church . Carrie, being able to belong to two such different faith communities—Church of the City in New York . Carrie, being able to belong to two such different faith communities—Church of the City in New York and Cross Point in Nashville— and Cross Point in Nashville— was a truly amazing gift. I was able to serve in both places, which have great was a truly amazing gift. I was able to serve in both places, which have great leaders and outstanding staff leaders and outstanding staff . It . It was a wonderful experience.

was a wonderful experience. was a wonderful experience. Tony and I spent a week Tony and I spent a week Tony and I spent a week together, and Seth together, and Seth together, and Seth accompanied us on that journey. accompanied us on that journey. We met many church leaders, including Pastor Drew Hahn, as well as Pastor John and his team, We met many church leaders, including Pastor Drew Hahn, as well as Pastor John and his team, and Pastor Tim Keller's team and Pastor Tim Keller's team and Pastor Tim Keller's team members. What members. What members. What surprised me the most was It was the surprised me the most was It was the surprised me the most was It was the vibrant atmosphere of the New York church, the challenges of ministry vibrant atmosphere of the New York church, the challenges of ministry vibrant atmosphere of the New York church, the challenges of ministry , and the message that if you , and the message that if you , and the message that if you succeed there, you can succeed anywhere succeed there, you can succeed anywhere . I could see the . I could see the small footprints they were leaving and the small footprints they were leaving and the influence of Pastor Tim Keller permeating every corner of these young leaders influence of Pastor Tim Keller permeating every corner of these young leaders . I had . I had coffee with Pastor Tim. coffee with Pastor Tim. coffee with Pastor Tim. Pastor Tim invited me to my apartment Pastor Tim invited me to my apartment Pastor Tim invited me to my apartment . Pastor Tim . Pastor Tim . Pastor Tim answered my call. We were able to answered my call. We were able to hear stories like that that we don't usually come across hear stories like that that we don't usually come across . So I . So I thought, 'You can never know a person's true feelings through such things, even after several generations have passed since their death.' My counselor is in New York, and when I first started counseling, I probably told when I first started counseling, I probably told her, 'I live a somewhat public her, 'I live a somewhat public her, 'I live a somewhat public life.' Do you happen to life.' Do you happen to know that person?

know that person? know that person? I think I asked that. I think I asked that. I think I asked that. Especially back then, I had Especially back then, I had Especially back then, I had n't met J.W. yet, and I was dating and n't met J.W. yet, and I was dating and wondering what I should do in the future wondering what I should do in the future . I didn't know how to balance my online activities with my . I didn't know how to balance my online activities with my . I didn't know how to balance my online activities with my real life real life real life . . . "Well, I know the teacher "Well, I know the teacher a little bit." I have been participating in Tim and Cathy Keller a little bit." I have been participating in Tim and Cathy Keller a little bit." I have been participating in Tim and Cathy Keller 's small group for about 20 years 's small group for about 20 years 's small group for about 20 years . You said that. . You said that. . You said that. I think, 'Okay, I'll be able to find a good person I think, 'Okay, I'll be able to find a good person I think, 'Okay, I'll be able to find a good person .' I .' I .' I really like it. I really like it. I thought so. So I thought, 'Tim thought so. So I thought, 'Tim Keller and Cathy have given that city far Keller and Cathy have given that city far Keller and Cathy have given that city far more blessings than I could have imagined more blessings than I could have imagined more blessings than I could have imagined .' There is no way .' There is no way they did they did n't know they could receive counseling from one of the wisest female counselors I have ever met. It is n't know they could receive counseling from one of the wisest female counselors I have ever met. It is truly amazing that I can communicate directly with his wisdom, team, and Cathy every day. That's really truly amazing that I can communicate directly with his wisdom, team, and Cathy every day. That's really cool. cool. cool. And I think that's And I think that's And I think that's important. You important. You important. You take on a lot of public roles while take on a lot of public roles while take on a lot of public roles while I do not, but I do not, but I do not, but communicating with people, communicating with people, communicating with people, private meetings, and the private meetings, and the process of building relationships make a really big process of building relationships make a really big process of building relationships make a really big difference. That is a difference. That is a difference. That is a challenge for me, and at the same time, it challenge for me, and at the same time, it gives me an important realization. We need to have gives me an important realization. We need to have more time like that, but it's more time like that, but it's more time like that, but it's not easy. How would I make time not easy. How would I make time not easy. How would I make time ? I always travel by plane, ? I always travel by plane, ? I always travel by plane, you know. that's right.

you know. that's right. you know. that's right. I also want to I also want to I also want to meet and talk with the female staff working at the church meet and talk with the female staff working at the church meet and talk with the female staff working at the church . . . How How How can I work at a church as a single woman can I work at a church as a single woman can I work at a church as a single woman ? Or ? Or ? Or in any other situation, how in any other situation, how in any other situation, how can I write? A sermon? can I write? A sermon? can I write? A sermon? How do you do it? And regarding finding balance How do you do it? And regarding finding balance , it seems that many , it seems that many , it seems that many senior pastors are struggling with this issue senior pastors are struggling with this issue senior pastors are struggling with this issue . Because every week, I . Because every week, I have to prepare a sermon for the entire congregation, have to prepare a sermon for the entire congregation, lead the ministers, and lead the ministers, and lead the ministers, and listen to requests from others within the church listen to requests from others within the church listen to requests from others within the church . It is . It is really difficult to do all of this well. The really difficult to do all of this well. The really difficult to do all of this well. The interesting thing is, I interesting thing is, I interesting thing is, I don't know if you have had this experience, but don't know if you have had this experience, but my problem is that I get requests almost every day to spare even a little bit of my time . . Are you available for a Zoom video call? Are you available for a Zoom video call? Are you available for a Zoom video call? Are you able to do a 50-minute broadcast? Are you able to do a 50-minute broadcast? Usually, they answer that it's not possible because of the number of people Usually, they answer that it's not possible because of the number of people . However, . However, this happened even when I was the senior pastor and before I served the leaders.

As everything was delegated and the system ran smoothly, the local As everything was delegated and the system ran smoothly, the local ministry workers eventually got too busy and ended up ministry workers eventually got too busy and ended up ministry workers eventually got too busy and ended up leaving me alone leaving me alone leaving me alone . But then, . But then, . But then, contact comes from the outside. I am at home contact comes from the outside. I am at home contact comes from the outside. I am at home , but my cell phone is full of nothing but , but my cell phone is full of nothing but , but my cell phone is full of nothing but calls. I don't really calls. I don't really calls. I don't really contact people who actually know me contact people who actually know me contact people who actually know me . I . I . I think I'm too busy. think I'm too busy. think I'm too busy. So, for example, I So, for example, I So, for example, I reach out when they're home and ask, " reach out when they're home and ask, " reach out when they're home and ask, " Would you like to grab a cup of coffee?" It's like asking... I went Would you like to grab a cup of coffee?" It's like asking... I went Would you like to grab a cup of coffee?" It's like asking... I went boating with my friend Rob boating with my friend Rob boating with my friend Rob and it was really great. I and it was really great. I and it was really great. I want to say that, but often I'm not sure want to say that, but often I'm not sure want to say that, but often I'm not sure what I'm trying to say what I'm trying to say what I'm trying to say . . . Do you receive that kind of attention? Do you receive that kind of attention? Do you receive that kind of attention? Aside from the question that... yes that's Aside from the question that... yes that's right. Okay, let's talk a little more about that part talk a little more about that part talk a little more about that part . I think the leaders will relate to this as well . I think the leaders will relate to this as well . I think the leaders will relate to this as well . . . Yes, I think the solution is, " Yes, I think the solution is, " Yes, I think the solution is, " Can I volunteer secretly?" That's what I'm Can I volunteer secretly?" That's what I'm Can I volunteer secretly?" That's what I'm asking. What I mean is, if asking. What I mean is, if asking. What I mean is, if I get an opportunity to volunteer somewhere, I I get an opportunity to volunteer somewhere, I don't go out of my way to tell anyone. Could you be an usher at summer Bible school don't go out of my way to tell anyone. Could you be an usher at summer Bible school ? You do ? You do ? You do n't ask that. Even n't ask that. Even n't ask that. Even at the Church of the City in New York, at the Church of the City in New York, at the Church of the City in New York, many people did many people did many people did n't know who I was. It was only on n't know who I was. It was only on n't know who I was. It was only on the Sunday I preached that its true identity was finally the Sunday I preached that its true identity was finally the Sunday I preached that its true identity was finally revealed. Until then, I was just revealed. Until then, I was just one of the ordinary people in the church. But my friend asked, "You must miss small group.

"You must miss small group. Can you lead a small group this week?" I used to ask that Can you lead a small group this week?" I used to ask that . "So I thought, 'Yes . "So I thought, 'Yes .' Just like the prayer room .' Just like the prayer room .' Just like the prayer room , and the one here in Nashville as , and the one here in Nashville as , and the one here in Nashville as well, the way they well, the way they well, the way they approach people approach people approach people seems to be exactly like that, just as you said. If you have even a day or an seems to be exactly like that, just as you said. If you have even a day or an seems to be exactly like that, just as you said. If you have even a day or an hour to spare, you hour to spare, you hour to spare, you reach out to someone and say, 'Would you like to grab a cup of coffee reach out to someone and say, 'Would you like to grab a cup of coffee reach out to someone and say, 'Would you like to grab a cup of coffee ? I’d like to hear ? I’d like to hear ? I’d like to hear how you’ve been since we last met how you’ve been since we last met how you’ve been since we last met .' .' .' " And I " And I think it is really good for leaders to serve in positions where they do not have to bear all the responsibility. think it is really good for leaders to serve in positions where they do not have to bear all the responsibility. Especially when I heard that " Especially when I heard that " student ministry starts this week," I thought, "Should I go with JW on Wednesday evening and do the things that people who aren't directly involved in the students' lives are supposed to do?" I had that thought. I had that thought. That's a really good attitude. I couldn't actually do it, but deep down, I That's a really good attitude. I couldn't actually do it, but deep down, I thought that. "I do thought that. "I do n't want to take the credit for it, but n't want to take the credit for it, but n't want to take the credit for it, but this is my perspective. While the inner this is my perspective. While the inner world does world does world does n't tell us to step forward and serve, n't tell us to step forward and serve, n't tell us to step forward and serve, when the outer world does, we when the outer world does, we find a way to serve the local church somehow. What is find a way to serve the local church somehow. What is quite quite quite amusing is wondering why I did amusing is wondering why I did amusing is wondering why I did n't serve more n't serve more n't serve more . One reason is that I . One reason is that I . One reason is that I used to be the senior pastor used to be the senior pastor used to be the senior pastor . However, the reality is that . However, the reality is that . However, the reality is that now, nearly 11 years later, half of the church members probably don't know now, nearly 11 years later, half of the church members probably don't know now, nearly 11 years later, half of the church members probably don't know who I am who I am who I am . You preached once this year, right . You preached once this year, right . You preached once this year, right ? Yes. I now often...

? Yes. I now often... ? Yes. I now often... " He " He helped establish the church. "That is how they helped establish the church. "That is how they introduce themselves. So, there will likely be introduce themselves. So, there will likely be more opportunities to serve quietly in the corner so as not to get in the way of the current leadership. That was what more opportunities to serve quietly in the corner so as not to get in the way of the current leadership. That was what I feared most I feared most I feared most . The idea was that if I . The idea was that if I . The idea was that if I suddenly appeared as the Founder, all eyes would suddenly appeared as the Founder, all eyes would suddenly appeared as the Founder, all eyes would be on me, and I would have to be on me, and I would have to be on me, and I would have to serve quietly from the back. The serve quietly from the back. The person who showed me this wonderfully is person who showed me this wonderfully is Mac Powell of Third Day. Mac Powell of Third Day. Mac Powell of Third Day. Really? Really? Really? Mac Powell and I Mac Powell and I grew up at the church that he and his family attended. grew up at the church that he and his family attended. I didn't know that fact. I didn't know that fact. I didn't know that fact. He and his family just He and his family just came to church. They came to church. They came to church. They attended church and also attended church and also worked as counselors at summer camp. worked as counselors at summer camp. worked as counselors at summer camp. People were surprised when they first saw them People were surprised when they first saw them People were surprised when they first saw them ." To think the ." To think the ." To think the Mac Powell of Third Day is here Mac Powell of Third Day is here Mac Powell of Third Day is here ! I can't believe it! "That's what I said ! I can't believe it! "That's what I said . But the more I . But the more I . But the more I saw them, the more I felt they were just ordinary saw them, the more I felt they were just ordinary saw them, the more I felt they were just ordinary people people . . . Yes. Yes. Yes. So one thing I did at the local church, So one thing I did at the local church, considering you were nothing at the time of founding, is to give leaders the opportunity to reveal themselves in ordinary roles rather than leadership positions opportunity to reveal themselves in ordinary roles rather than leadership positions . If you do that just three or four times, . If you do that just three or four times, . If you do that just three or four times, people wo people wo n't be surprised anymore when they see you n't be surprised anymore when they see you n't be surprised anymore when they see you . You'll look like just an ordinary person . You'll look like just an ordinary person . You'll look like just an ordinary person greeting people at Sunday morning service, greeting people at Sunday morning service, greeting people at Sunday morning service, or or someone in charge of sound in the young adult group.

someone in charge of sound in the young adult group. Even though you are Even though you are McPowell. McPowell. McPowell. This episode is provided by 'The Chosen' This episode is provided by 'The Chosen' This episode is provided by 'The Chosen' . Oh, did you . Oh, did you know that a powerful journey toward the cross begins in Season 6 of 'The Chosen'? You can watch the know that a powerful journey toward the cross begins in Season 6 of 'The Chosen'? You can watch the first episode of the season for first episode of the season for first episode of the season for free in advance until November 14. free in advance until November 14. Share a meaningful experience with your congregation and community. For Share a meaningful experience with your congregation and community. For more details, more details, visit comeandsee.net/church. Hmm, that's a visit comeandsee.net/church. Hmm, that's a good word. It seems to fit the current situation perfectly for me good word. It seems to fit the current situation perfectly for me . The good thing is, the old "Back then, it was hard even to go grocery shopping while I was busy with broadcasting work," Oh my, hard even to go grocery shopping while I was busy with broadcasting work," Oh my, by any chance, do you go to church? "Or" by any chance, do you go to church? "Or" by any chance, do you go to church? "Or" I used to go to church too I used to go to church too I used to go to church too . I used to hear the same thing . I used to hear the same thing . I used to hear the same thing . It was my favorite . It was my favorite . It was my favorite conversation. conversation. conversation. Ah, I used to go to church really often, too Ah, I used to go to church really often, too Ah, I used to go to church really often, too . Are you still there? . Are you still there? . Are you still there? I used to I used to I used to go there too. Do you remember? go there too. Do you remember? go there too. Do you remember? Where are you going now? "I used to Where are you going now? "I used to Where are you going now? "I used to get asked the same question. But get asked the same question. But get asked the same question. But now I can walk into almost any restaurant with peace of now I can walk into almost any restaurant with peace of now I can walk into almost any restaurant with peace of mind, and even if I mind, and even if I mind, and even if I know someone, they are just know someone, they are just know someone, they are just someone who likes that restaurant; they someone who likes that restaurant; they don't know what I used to do. Most of the people here have no idea that I do podcasts and all sorts of other things.

no idea that I do podcasts and all sorts of other things. That makes it even more interesting. Fine, let's give it a That makes it even more interesting. Fine, let's give it a That makes it even more interesting. Fine, let's give it a try. I don't know why this thought suddenly occurred to me, but if you try. I don't know why this thought suddenly occurred to me, but if you look at the Book of Revelation, Jesus and look at the Book of Revelation, Jesus and John wrote letters to the seven churches, didn't they? Do you know what I John wrote letters to the seven churches, didn't they? Do you know what I hate most about pastors hate most about pastors ?" It's different here. ?" It's different here. ?" It's different here. That's why it's not working, Annie. That's why it's not working, Annie. That's why it's not working, Annie. Our church members are different, so we Our church members are different, so we cannot apply the pastor's idea here. "It’s like this cannot apply the pastor's idea here. "It’s like this . Hmm, it’s not *that* different . Hmm, it’s not *that* different . Hmm, it’s not *that* different . If it weren’t for that, . If it weren’t for that, . If it weren’t for that, iPhones wouldn’t be selling in my neighborhood, iPhones wouldn’t be selling in my neighborhood, iPhones wouldn’t be selling in my neighborhood, people would people would n’t be watching Netflix, and Odyssey would n’t be watching Netflix, and Odyssey would n’t be watching Netflix, and Odyssey would n’t have been released. So, let’s stop the excuses n’t have been released. So, let’s stop the excuses . On the other hand, it is . On the other hand, it is true that every city has its own unique atmosphere and soul. Both Nashville and true that every city has its own unique atmosphere and soul. Both Nashville and New York are very special cities. New York are very special cities. And speaking of the spiritual environment And speaking of the spiritual environment , I’m curious what you felt about New York , I’m curious what you felt about New York . What reality did you witness there What reality did you witness there ? ? ? Well, I was scheduled to give a presentation at a conference a few years ago, and Well, I was scheduled to give a presentation at a conference a few years ago, and the person introducing me said, 'He lives half-in New York the person introducing me said, 'He lives half-in New York , but it seems he doesn't realize , but it seems he doesn't realize , but it seems he doesn't realize how much the crime rate is rising how much the crime rate is rising how much the crime rate is rising .'" "...

.'" "... .'" "... saying that, he started putting down New York a little saying that, he started putting down New York a little saying that, he started putting down New York a little . So when . So when . So when I answered, "Annie," he said, I answered, "Annie," he said, "Wait a minute." "I said that. "Wait a minute." "I said that. As soon as I got on that stage, As soon as I got on that stage, I said, 'Thank you so much for introducing me I said, 'Thank you so much for introducing me I said, 'Thank you so much for introducing me .'" You are absolutely right .'" You are absolutely right .'" You are absolutely right . I live half-in New York, and I . I live half-in New York, and I would like to tell you about the things God is doing in New York. It might be a part that doesn't often appear in the news, though. People who are baptized and saved, the People who are baptized and saved, the People who are baptized and saved, the work God does, the work God does, the work God does, the places where He works, places where He works, places where He works, and what is happening in cities like and what is happening in cities like and what is happening in cities like LA, New York, London, LA, New York, London, LA, New York, London, Nashville, Atlanta, Boston, Nashville, Atlanta, Boston, Nashville, Atlanta, Boston, Dallas, and Austin—just as it is in many cities today—are Dallas, and Austin—just as it is in many cities today—are spiritually spiritually very important. I felt the biggest difference between New York and very important. I felt the biggest difference between New York and very important. I felt the biggest difference between New York and Nashville Nashville Nashville in Nashville, and the in Nashville, and the same goes for many cities in the South; same goes for many cities in the South; having a history of faith of any kind having a history of faith of any kind having a history of faith of any kind is very helpful. Whether you want to participate in politics or is very helpful. Whether you want to participate in politics or work in the music industry like country or CCM, the work in the music industry like country or CCM, the history of faith is of great help history of faith is of great help history of faith is of great help . If you . If you . If you have even a little bit of a Christian side, it doesn't matter whether you are actually have even a little bit of a Christian side, it doesn't matter whether you are actually have even a little bit of a Christian side, it doesn't matter whether you are actually living that way or not living that way or not living that way or not . However, in New York, . However, in New York, . However, in New York, that aspect doesn't help even the top 1% that aspect doesn't help even the top 1% that aspect doesn't help even the top 1% . No, it does

. No, it does . No, it does n't help. It could actually n't help. It could actually work to your disadvantage. that's right. Most of our friends in New York who chose a life of faith rather than working in the church and are involved in the mainstream film industry are at a disadvantage . First of all, their . First of all, their . First of all, their conduct, integrity, and honesty are conduct, integrity, and honesty are conduct, integrity, and honesty are very high. While many things very high. While many things very high. While many things can happen in any workplace in any city can happen in any workplace in any city can happen in any workplace in any city , , such high moral standards such high moral standards work to a much greater advantage when competing with the top echelons of the financial world. work to a much greater advantage when competing with the top echelons of the financial world. work to a much greater advantage when competing with the top echelons of the financial world. Of course, this might just be my guess, but Of course, this might just be my guess, but Of course, this might just be my guess, but anyway, the best thing about living in New York was that I could anyway, the best thing about living in New York was that I could see up close how God leads people to Himself solely through the believers around us, the people who exude the fragrance of Christ in the city see up close how God leads people to Himself solely through the believers around us, the people who exude the fragrance of Christ in the city . Just like you . Just like you . Just like you . On the other hand, there are many people in Nashville with . On the other hand, there are many people in Nashville with . On the other hand, there are many people in Nashville with stories of faith, so you stories of faith, so you can ask deeper questions. But is that can ask deeper questions. But is that changing your life? yes changing your life? yes changing your life? yes .

. . What kind of change is it? In New York, I was able to make What kind of change is it? In New York, I was able to make What kind of change is it? In New York, I was able to make friends with people and friends with people and talk about Jesus in everyday life. It could have been an interesting story for them interesting story for them interesting story for them . Because being a . Because being a . Because being a Christian was the Christian was the same as living in the Upper West Side or the Upper East Side. It was just same as living in the Upper West Side or the Upper East Side. It was just another statistic showing my life another statistic showing my life another statistic showing my life . yes . yes . yes . . . In Nashville, it In Nashville, it In Nashville, it felt like something was wrong to some people. That is when felt like something was wrong to some people. That is when felt like something was wrong to some people. That is when I finally get the opportunity to step forward and say, "I will I finally get the opportunity to step forward and say, "I will remind you once again of the impact your faith can have on you." " " Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. And, um, and there are things Jesus is And, um, and there are things Jesus is And, um, and there are things Jesus is willing to do for you willing to do for you willing to do for you , if , if , if you sincerely you sincerely you sincerely want to participate in them. Well, want to participate in them. Well, want to participate in them. Well, we are not a post-Christian city we are not a post-Christian city we are not a post-Christian city . Nashville, as you know . Nashville, as you know . Nashville, as you know , is still urban in many ways , is still urban in many ways , is still urban in many ways . Not in every way, though . Not in every way, though . Not in every way, though . . Whenever I travel between Franklin and Nashville, I am really amazed by the megachurches on Franklin Road or Whenever I travel between Franklin and Nashville, I am really amazed by the megachurches on Franklin Road or Brentwood Brentwood ." That's right ." That's right . You might think, 'What is this?' It is truly . You might think, 'What is this?' It is truly . You might think, 'What is this?' It is truly amazing. Of course, I know that half the city's population does amazing. Of course, I know that half the city's population does amazing. Of course, I know that half the city's population does n't go to church n't go to church n't go to church . But there are so . But there are so . But there are so many churches in New York, too. They are many churches in New York, too. They are many churches in New York, too. They are used for other purposes, used for other purposes, used for other purposes, though. They are used as bars, restaurants, and though. They are used as bars, restaurants, and though. They are used as bars, restaurants, and hotels hotels hotels . As you walk by, you . As you walk by, you think, 'There is a history of faith here, too.' We see it in cathedrals and buildings We see it in cathedrals and buildings We see it in cathedrals and buildings . So, this is a . So, this is a special time. It is truly special to be able to participate in these cities special time. It is truly special to be able to participate in these cities and the spread of this movement and the spread of this movement . I believe that revival will happen everywhere

. Carrie, . Carrie, think about floods. Floods think about floods. Floods think about floods. Floods occur because the ground is soaked, and at the same time occur because the ground is soaked, and at the same time occur because the ground is soaked, and at the same time rain falls from the sky, rain falls from the sky, rain falls from the sky, water rises from deep within the earth water rises from deep within the earth water rises from deep within the earth . I . I believe that faithful saints in small towns, not big cities like New York where I grew up, are stirring up the waves of revival. It may be raining in big cities , but ordinary cities like the one where I grew up will be the source of those waves, and be the source of those waves, and where those waves meet, where those waves meet, true change will take place in our country and throughout the world true change will take place in our country and throughout the world . And What I . And What I felt in New York, especially in central areas like Manhattan, which really impressed me and made me want to spend more time, was that there were far fewer people. far fewer people. far fewer people. Of course, some churches are large, though Of course, some churches are large, though Of course, some churches are large, though . Although the number of attendees is . Although the number of attendees is . Although the number of attendees is large, large, large, there is a tendency for people to gather in large numbers. However, if you there is a tendency for people to gather in large numbers. However, if you get to know the people in that place, they are get to know the people in that place, they are influential people. For example, influential people. For example, influential people. For example, David Brooks once snuck into David Brooks once snuck into David Brooks once snuck into Redeemer Church and Redeemer Church and Redeemer Church and had coffee with Tim Keller, and had coffee with Tim Keller, and had coffee with Tim Keller, and one evening after Tony and I one evening after Tony and I one evening after Tony and I finished a lecture there, he said, finished a lecture there, he said, finished a lecture there, he said, "Ah, you're "Ah, you're quite high up on LinkedIn."

quite high up on LinkedIn." Or, "What you are doing is really Or, "What you are doing is really amazing." You end up hearing the same story amazing." You end up hearing the same story amazing." You end up hearing the same story . Do not underestimate small beginnings . Do not underestimate small beginnings . Do not underestimate small beginnings . "Well, yes, there might be 50 people in the room, but . "Well, yes, there might be 50 people in the room, but everyone is equal. everyone is equal. Likewise, wherever they are Likewise, wherever they are Likewise, wherever they are planted, they can play the role of salt and light planted, they can play the role of salt and light . . . We—well, God bless you— We—well, God bless you— when she was kidnapped, you saw the pastor of Good Shepherd Church on TV, remember? That is exactly the on TV, remember? That is exactly the gift of the local church gift of the local church . . . In a city full of globally influential people In a city full of globally influential people , who are the people sitting next to you on Sunday , who are the people sitting next to you on Sunday , who are the people sitting next to you on Sunday , and who are the , and who are the , and who are the parishioners worshipping with you parishioners worshipping with you parishioners worshipping with you ? Carrie, I think ? Carrie, I think ? Carrie, I think another advantage of podcasting is that another advantage of podcasting is that when your episode was sent to Jimmy Fallon, he might have listened and been when your episode was sent to Jimmy Fallon, he might have listened and been impressed impressed impressed . . Like you, I don't want to reveal secrets, but when you find out who listened and why... yes, there have even been times when bodyguards had to come and escort a listener. It was there have even been times when bodyguards had to come and escort a listener. It was really amazing." "I really amazing." "I really amazing." "I thought, 'What did you say?'

thought, 'What did you say?' thought, 'What did you say?' " It " It really is a really is a really is a wonderful thing. As you wonderful thing. As you wonderful thing. As you mentioned on social media recently, I mentioned on social media recently, I hope you continue to share how content used to be lacking but now the community is vibrant. hope you continue to share how content used to be lacking but now the community is vibrant. Over the past three days, I met with Over the past three days, I met with Over the past three days, I met with five pastors, including Pastor Carey five pastors, including Pastor Carey five pastors, including Pastor Carey , and they all , and they all talked about that slide. talked about that slide. talked about that slide. Isn't that interesting? It's really well Isn't that interesting? It's really well Isn't that interesting? It's really well made. The advantage of having rich content is that made. The advantage of having rich content is that every pastor, podcaster, every pastor, podcaster, writer, and Instagram user who listens to our broadcast writer, and Instagram user who listens to our broadcast gets the opportunity to post something that gets seen by someone influential. gets the opportunity to post something that gets seen by someone influential. That can change their lives That can change their lives That can change their lives . Who am I thinking of . Who am I thinking of . Who am I thinking of ? Dave ? Dave ? Dave Portnoy. Do you know who he is? I Portnoy. Do you know who he is? I Portnoy. Do you know who he is? I can't quite remember the name. I think he's can't quite remember the name. I think he's can't quite remember the name. I think he's from Bar Stool Sports from Bar Stool Sports ; I'm not talking about sports, but you can tell by the results not talking about sports, but you can tell by the results ." About his life ." About his life . I . I . I don't know if he knows Jesus personally, but someday don't know if he knows Jesus personally, but someday don't know if he knows Jesus personally, but someday someone will someone will someone will show him content that presents the Gospel show him content that presents the Gospel show him content that presents the Gospel . And I . And I . And I hope that is my content.

hope that is my content. hope that is my content. Then you can become friends with him Then you can become friends with him Then you can become friends with him . Of course, I don't want to . Of course, I don't want to publicly build friendships with celebrities publicly build friendships with celebrities publicly build friendships with celebrities , but it would be nice if my content , but it would be nice if my content reached people reached people reached people . This applies to . This applies to . This applies to all the pastors listening right now as well all the pastors listening right now as well all the pastors listening right now as well . . . If your church's If your church's If your church's podcast reaches the ears of very famous musicians podcast reaches the ears of very famous musicians , famous surgeons, or famous , famous surgeons, or famous , famous surgeons, or famous politicians, you politicians, you cannot even imagine how God will use the content you have created. The same would likely be true for pastors ministering in cities frequented by many celebrities, such as LA, cannot even imagine how God will use the content you have created. The same would likely be true for pastors ministering in cities frequented by many celebrities, such as LA, New York, and London New York, and London . Do n't give up. Because n't give up. Because nobody nobody nobody knows where it will end up. I look at the numbers knows where it will end up. I look at the numbers knows where it will end up. I look at the numbers , but I'm not sure how big the impact will be , but I'm not sure how big the impact will be , but I'm not sure how big the impact will be . that's . that's . that's right. That right. That is exactly the point. is exactly the point. That That That happened in New York, and I see happened in New York, and I see happened in New York, and I see you have returned to Nashville completely and are you have returned to Nashville completely and are you have returned to Nashville completely and are even getting married even getting married . . . What factors made you think this trip was enjoyable What factors made you think this trip was enjoyable What factors made you think this trip was enjoyable ? I have returned to Nashville ? I have returned to Nashville ? I have returned to Nashville . . . And I don't think it's over yet And I don't think it's over yet And I don't think it's over yet . The funny thing is, both JW and I are . The funny thing is, both JW and I are thinking about returning to Nashville once we've settled in a bit more thinking about returning to Nashville once we've settled in a bit more . I am 46 years old . I am 46 years old . I am 46 years old , and I have lived alone. It’s been a , and I have lived alone. It’s been a really long time since I started living with my roommate. So, I need a really long time since I started living with my roommate. So, I need a little more time before obtaining citizenship of any country little more time before obtaining citizenship of any country little more time before obtaining citizenship of any country . But I . But I think it is truly beautiful that God opens and closes the door when the time comes.

think it is truly beautiful that God opens and closes the door when the time comes. God is truly merciful God is truly merciful God is truly merciful . The Bible verse, "The door Jehovah has opened, . The Bible verse, "The door Jehovah has opened, . The Bible verse, "The door Jehovah has opened, no one can close; the no one can close; the no one can close; the door Jehovah has closed, door Jehovah has closed, door Jehovah has closed, no one can open," no one can open," really resonates with me exactly as it is. I really resonates with me exactly as it is. I pray a lot while thinking about that verse. But pray a lot while thinking about that verse. But in the end, my friends who own the apartment in the end, my friends who own the apartment in the end, my friends who own the apartment ... told me to sell it. ... told me to sell it. ... told me to sell it. So they said, "We are planning to So they said, "We are planning to So they said, "We are planning to sell it, but we are letting you know in case you want to find another place sell it, but we are letting you know in case you want to find another place ." He said. Thanks to that, I had the opportunity to think about how to spend the next season in New York opportunity to think about how to spend the next season in New York . Should . Should . Should I stay in a different apartment next season? Should I stay in a different apartment next season? Should I stay in a different apartment next season? Should I stay in the warehouse? Or should I pack my bags and I stay in the warehouse? Or should I pack my bags and go home to rest? In the end, I go home to rest? In the end, I go home to rest? In the end, I couldn't make a final decision, and now I've couldn't make a final decision, and now I've couldn't make a final decision, and now I've returned to Nashville. I decided to returned to Nashville. I decided to returned to Nashville. I decided to live in Nashville for the next season live in Nashville for the next season live in Nashville for the next season . I started dating JW around that time, but . I started dating JW around that time, but . I started dating JW around that time, but ah, I don't really ah, I don't really want to go to New York that often now want to go to New York that often now want to go to New York that often now . Since we both travel a lot for work, I . Since we both travel a lot for work, I want to be with him. want to be with him. I had that thought. I did consider that I had that thought. I did consider that I had that thought. I did consider that , but selling the apartment , but selling the apartment was the first hurdle for me. From then on, was the first hurdle for me. From then on, looking around, I thought, 'Ah, what was I looking around, I thought, 'Ah, what was I looking around, I thought, 'Ah, what was I missing?' I wish I had been in Nashville missing?' I wish I had been in Nashville missing?' I wish I had been in Nashville . I had that . I had that . I had that thought. My team...

thought. My team... handled a lot of work. Since everyone else handled a lot of work. Since everyone else handled a lot of work. Since everyone else works in the office, the people who were considerate enough to let me stay here were works in the office, the people who were considerate enough to let me stay here were really generous. really generous. So I went in and out often So I went in and out often , but now there were parts of the house that were starting to wear out , but now there were parts of the house that were starting to wear out , but now there were parts of the house that were starting to wear out . . So, since coming here, it has become So, since coming here, it has become time for me to make more time time for me to make more time time for me to make more time . Um, Carrie, . Um, Carrie, . Um, Carrie, do you know what happened? You will really like it do you know what happened? You will really like it do you know what happened? You will really like it . . . The friends who lent me their apartment were really generous The friends who lent me their apartment were really generous The friends who lent me their apartment were really generous . I did . I did n't receive the monthly rent I was supposed to receive. And the n't receive the monthly rent I was supposed to receive. And the furniture I put in my apartment furniture I put in my apartment was bought at places like Wayfair. To be honest, it was was bought at places like Wayfair. To be honest, it was was bought at places like Wayfair. To be honest, it was n't all that good. n't all that good. n't all that good. So when you have to move, " So when you have to move, " Where should I put this?" I had that Where should I put this?" I had that Where should I put this?" I had that thought. So I thought. So I called the Church of the City and said, "Do you called the Church of the City and said, "Do you have anywhere to donate these pieces of furniture? have anywhere to donate these pieces of furniture? have anywhere to donate these pieces of furniture? I'm taking this much to Nashville I'm taking this much to Nashville I'm taking this much to Nashville , but I , but I , but I don't need the sofa." I asked. don't need the sofa." I asked. don't need the sofa." I asked. And if someone And if someone And if someone takes this bed from this four-story building takes this bed from this four-story building , I have it , I have it , I have it . You can take as much as you want . You can take as much as you want . You can take as much as you want . I just left it alone for two years . I just left it alone for two years . I just left it alone for two years . It wasn't that expensive . It wasn't that expensive . It wasn't that expensive , and I did , and I did , and I did n't really want to put it out in public.

n't really want to put it out in public. n't really want to put it out in public. New York has given me so much New York has given me so much New York has given me so much , Carrie. New York was a place where I, , Carrie. New York was a place where I, Church of the City, and Church of the City, and Church of the City, and its staff and members were its staff and members were its staff and members were together. They together. They treated me so generously, allowing me to live as a New Yorker with them. treated me so generously, allowing me to live as a New Yorker with them. So I called and said, "Please let me So I called and said, "Please let me know of some non-profit organizations." He know of some non-profit organizations." He know of some non-profit organizations." He said. A said. A said. A staff member named Ashley said, "Well, I'm not sure about non-profit staff member named Ashley said, "Well, I'm not sure about non-profit staff member named Ashley said, "Well, I'm not sure about non-profit organizations, but I heard our organizations, but I heard our organizations, but I heard our worship leader needs a new bed worship leader needs a new bed worship leader needs a new bed ." ." ." That's what they said. So I said, " That's what they said. So I said, " Please send it right away." He said that Please send it right away." He said that . And I donated the . And I donated the . And I donated the furniture I no longer needed to the people in New York furniture I no longer needed to the people in New York doing the gospel ministry that I consider most important doing the gospel ministry that I consider most important . So . So . So I thought, "Wow, isn't this exactly God I thought, "Wow, isn't this exactly God I thought, "Wow, isn't this exactly God ? It felt like God was saying, ' ? It felt like God was saying, ' ? It felt like God was saying, ' Annie, I hope that sofa was nice for you Annie, I hope that sofa was nice for you Annie, I hope that sofa was nice for you . But . But there are people moving into other apartments in Nashville first, and there are people moving into other apartments in Nashville first, and they will be using your living room now. they will be using your living room now. they will be using your living room now. ' It ' It felt like such a huge gift that God makes the furniture, everything we have, His own. felt like such a huge gift that God makes the furniture, everything we have, His own. Right? God Right? God moved the furniture to the next people who needed it, to where others needed it, and I felt like I was in the middle of something important. It felt like God had made me a mediator, as if to say, ' God had made me a mediator, as if to say, ' Annie Annie Annie was only here for a moment, and was only here for a moment, and was only here for a moment, and now take the things to now take the things to now take the things to help others stay there longer help others stay there longer .'" So for the past few .'" So for the past few months, people have been months, people have been coming to my apartment asking, "Can I

coming to my apartment asking, "Can I coming to my apartment asking, "Can I take some olive wood you bought in the Amazon take some olive wood you bought in the Amazon take some olive wood you bought in the Amazon ?" Being able to hear you ask that was ?" Being able to hear you ask that was one of the most precious gifts the Lord gave me. I said, "Actually, I one of the most precious gifts the Lord gave me. I said, "Actually, I bought this across the street for 15 dollars bought this across the street for 15 dollars bought this across the street for 15 dollars . Take it." That's what I said . Take it." That's what I said . Take it." That's what I said . It was a really wonderful experience . It was a really wonderful experience . It was a really wonderful experience , Carrie. It was a , Carrie. It was a really special moment in my life in New York really special moment in my life in New York really special moment in my life in New York . It was . It was . It was fun. But, um, fun. But, um, fun. But, um, speaking of decisions, you speaking of decisions, you talked about informal boards in your new book talked about informal boards in your new book . For example, "Should I move to New York . For example, "Should I move to New York . For example, "Should I move to New York ?" If ?" If ?" If asked, "No." It's like answering like that asked, "No." It's like answering like that asked, "No." It's like answering like that . Seth played that kind of . Seth played that kind of . Seth played that kind of board role for me at important moments board role for me at important moments board role for me at important moments . I . I . I took the time to ask one of the most powerful questions I have asked in the last 10 years took the time to ask one of the most powerful questions I have asked in the last 10 years . " What would you do if you knew you wouldn't fail?" You know that if you just get up, you will fail. What would you do if you knew you were going to fail? This What would you do if you knew you were going to fail? This is the question. "Ah, that is the question. "Ah, that is the question. "Ah, that 's a Seth-esque question. Really, a 's a Seth-esque question. Really, a 's a Seth-esque question. Really, a Seth-esque question." You might Seth-esque question." You might Seth-esque question." You might think that, but think that, but what would you do if you knew you were going to fail? yes what would you do if you knew you were going to fail? yes .

. . Because "I'm bound to fail anyway Because "I'm bound to fail anyway Because "I'm bound to fail anyway , but let's give it a try." This is , but let's give it a try." This is because thinking that is the right thing to do. This mindset was of great help to me when serving church and business leaders when serving church and business leaders . Of course, there may be corporate leaders listening to this broadcast right now, but I have decided to set aside the idea of ​​speaking to I have decided to set aside the idea of ​​speaking to both corporate and church leaders and both corporate and church leaders and focus more on the church focus more on the church . . . Because if, 20 years later, there was no difference despite me devoting Because if, 20 years later, there was no difference despite me devoting all my time to serving the church all my time to serving the church , that effort would certainly have been , that effort would certainly have been worthwhile. worthwhile. worthwhile. And the church may need more help than businesses And the church may need more help than businesses . . What would you do if you knew you were going to fail What would you do if you knew you were going to fail What would you do if you knew you were going to fail ? Usually, it is " ? Usually, it is " What would you do if you knew you wouldn't fail?" What would you do if you knew you wouldn't fail?" They ask that question. Right? They ask that question. Right? They ask that question. Right? Hmm, then, um, well, they would Hmm, then, um, well, they would probably make a satellite that doesn't pollute space. probably make a satellite that doesn't pollute space. I think I would do something like that, right? But I think I would do something like that, right? But I think I would do something like that, right? But no, even if this fails completely no, even if this fails completely no, even if this fails completely , I'll probably go to heaven and say, " , I'll probably go to heaven and say, " Look, I tried." You could Look, I tried." You could Look, I tried." You could say that. It was worth it, and I do say that. It was worth it, and I do n't regret it. n't regret it. Seth, I have a few people who have served as board members Seth, I have a few people who have served as board members , and I tend to rely on them a lot , and I tend to rely on them a lot . It is a . It is a . It is a really big problem for leaders, but really big problem for leaders, but really big problem for leaders, but most people think that all the responsibility lies with most people think that all the responsibility lies with them them them . I have to . I have to . I have to make a decision, and if I were married, I would make a decision, and if I were married, I would make a decision, and if I were married, I would talk to my spouse, but I talk to my spouse, but I talk to my spouse, but I think that’s where it ends. yes think that’s where it ends. yes think that’s where it ends. yes . One of the biggest advantages in my life is the help of others . One of the biggest advantages in my life is the help of others , which is that , which is that they are well aware of my shortcomings they are well aware of my shortcomings they are well aware of my shortcomings . yes

. yes . yes . When I . When I . When I think about my mentor Nancy think about my mentor Nancy think about my mentor Nancy , she has been married for over 40 years , she has been married for over 40 years , she has been married for over 40 years . I am not revealing her secret since Nancy has already shared this . I am not revealing her secret since Nancy has already shared this . I am not revealing her secret since Nancy has already shared this story publicly, but she story publicly, but she lost an adult child lost an adult child . Last year, I battled cancer, and I am a . Last year, I battled cancer, and I am a person who loves God very much. person who loves God very much. So she So she knows better than anyone how to run the set race knows better than anyone how to run the set race . I . I seek advice from Nancy whenever I have to make a decision about such matters. When I have to make a somewhat frightening decision, I ask Seth, and When I have to make a somewhat frightening decision, I ask Seth, and Pastor Kevin in Nashville, if Pastor Kevin in Nashville, if Pastor Kevin in Nashville, if God can help me God can help me God can help me judge what I should do judge what I should do . If I think about these three . If I think about these three problems long enough, will I be able to problems long enough, will I be able to find a somewhat wise answer? Of course, I find a somewhat wise answer? Of course, I hope it is possible, but it is much more helpful to gain the hope it is possible, but it is much more helpful to gain the hope it is possible, but it is much more helpful to gain the wisdom of those who have already experienced it wisdom of those who have already experienced it . So, as I . So, as I said before, I think there are positions like this that informally serve a said before, I think there are positions like this that informally serve a said before, I think there are positions like this that informally serve a role similar to a board of directors role similar to a board of directors . That is exactly why dating coaches are important . That is exactly why dating coaches are important , why business coaches are , why business coaches are , why business coaches are important, and why Ms. Carrie is important, and why Ms. Carrie is such a great gift to the church such a great gift to the church such a great gift to the church . I have rarely seen a . I have rarely seen a pastor who doesn't listen to Ms. Carrie pastor who doesn't listen to Ms. Carrie pastor who doesn't listen to Ms. Carrie . We . We . We all say, "I know the part of this problem you are all say, "I know the part of this problem you are wondering about wondering about wondering about 20 years ahead of you 20 years ahead of you 20 years ahead of you . I will help . I will help . I will help you. If you can skip three steps you. If you can skip three steps you. If you can skip three steps , they are as follows , they are as follows , they are as follows ." It ." It ." It has a voice that says...

has a voice that says... has a voice that says... Many people ask, "Okay, I do Many people ask, "Okay, I do Many people ask, "Okay, I do n't have that. How do I start n't have that. How do I start n't have that. How do I start ?" I'm going to say that ?" I'm going to say that . However, for me, and for . However, for me, and for . However, for me, and for this book which I am offering for free, it is a this book which I am offering for free, it is a collection of various voices accumulated over the years. collection of various voices accumulated over the years. Some people might not know each other Some people might not know each other Some people might not know each other , and they might not even know that they are , and they might not even know that they are , and they might not even know that they are members of the board members of the board members of the board . . . Seth probably won't know. Yes, that is Seth probably won't know. Yes, that is Seth probably won't know. Yes, that is exactly what I was about to say exactly what I was about to say exactly what I was about to say . council. . council. . council. That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. you're right. And to many leaders you're right. And to many leaders , Carrie, you and I , Carrie, you and I may have talked about this topic before, but I am not afraid to say it again. Leaders, in particular, may need a space to compose themselves and confess due to the level of information we possess and the impact of our decisions, as well as because we cannot reveal our difficulties publicly like others. In that case, there may be may need a space to compose themselves and confess due to the level of information we possess and the impact of our decisions, as well as because we cannot reveal our difficulties publicly like others. In that case, there may be costs involved. You costs involved. You may have to pay a fee to a counselor, or you may have to pay a fee to a coach . The counselor has an obligation not to disclose what I say . The counselor has an obligation not to disclose what I say to anyone else to anyone else .

. Of course, it depends on the topic Of course, it depends on the topic Of course, it depends on the topic . Right? Yes, that is . Right? Yes, that is . Right? Yes, that is correct. correct. correct. And And And there is also a mandatory reporting system. there is also a mandatory reporting system. there is also a mandatory reporting system. Yes, that is correct. However, Yes, that is correct. However, Yes, that is correct. However, other than that, when pastors or leaders other than that, when pastors or leaders tell me, "I have no one to talk to," I say, " Set aside about $120 a month and Set aside about $120 a month and Set aside about $120 a month and go find a counselor go find a counselor go find a counselor ." And by doing so ." And by doing so ." And by doing so , , , by expressing those emotions outwardly, this is just by expressing those emotions outwardly, this is just like the example Mac showed me, Carrie. That is the like the example Mac showed me, Carrie. That is the example Mac showed me. A example Mac showed me. A person with one of the most famous faces and voices in the Christian world comes to church every week person with one of the most famous faces and voices in the Christian world comes to church every week , and the more he believes himself to be normal, the more , and the more he believes himself to be normal, the more , and the more he believes himself to be normal, the more we we we believed it too. And just believed it too. And just as Mac was humble, because he as Mac was humble, because he believed himself to be a normal person in our church, believed himself to be a normal person in our church, others others others started to believe him too. If you started to believe him too. If you started to believe him too. If you sit down with a counselor or coach, sit down with a counselor or coach, pay for counseling, and come to pay for counseling, and come to believe that your problems are normal and that your thought and emotional processing processes are normal believe that your problems are normal and that your thought and emotional processing processes are normal , that belief spreads to other board , that belief spreads to other board , that belief spreads to other board members or people around you members or people around you , and you end up , and you end up , and you end up unable to trust them unable to trust them unable to trust them . yes . yes . yes . Because . Because . Because they can't hear.

they can't hear. they can't hear. I am gradually resolving these issues between my friends and family I am gradually resolving these issues between my friends and family . I am struggling with how to involve Jehovah's . I am struggling with how to involve Jehovah's Witnesses in this whole situation Witnesses in this whole situation Witnesses in this whole situation , what to , what to , what to say, what say, what say, what not to say, what to not to say, what to not to say, what to inform them of, and inform them of, and what others need to know what others need to know what others need to know . When he refuses an interview . When he refuses an interview . When he refuses an interview , , , how should I talk about him? how should I talk about him? how should I talk about him? As if As if As if assuming he is listening assuming he is listening assuming he is listening . I do the same for my wife . I do the same for my wife . I do the same for my wife . I think my wife is listening, too . I think my wife is listening, too . I think my wife is listening, too . . . However, I asked you and my other However, I asked you and my other However, I asked you and my other friends, "What should I do in a situation where I am in a public friends, "What should I do in a situation where I am in a public friends, "What should I do in a situation where I am in a public setting but he is not setting but he is not ?" I asked. ?" I asked. Ah, so he is in a public place, but he was Ah, so he is in a public place, but he was n't giving an interview today. The conversation that started like that began in the counseling room The conversation that started like that began in the counseling room . Then, . Then, . Then, JW and I talked, and JW and I talked, and JW and I talked, and now I am able to speak now I am able to speak now I am able to speak to you in front of all our friends to you in front of all our friends to you in front of all our friends . Yes, that . Yes, that is the part we are trying to correct. However, is the part we are trying to correct. However, if any of our leaders if any of our leaders feel that there is no one to give advice, I emphasize this once again: pay someone. Just like my coach pay someone. Just like my coach , the coach said, "No, that is , the coach said, "No, that is , the coach said, "No, that is completely normal. Most of my clients go through completely normal. Most of my clients go through completely normal. Most of my clients go through that problem that problem that problem , so don't think you are the only one , so don't think you are the only one ." I will say that. One more thing I would like to mention is that, although I do n't know what your experiences were like, most of us have moved around or moved around or moved around or met people at various gatherings met people at various gatherings met people at various gatherings . Looking back on my life while serving as a senior pastor for 31 years . Looking back on my life while serving as a senior pastor for 31 years , I belonged to a denomination, was part , I belonged to a denomination, was part of North Point World of North Point World of North Point World , and spent a , and spent a , and spent a lot of time in various cities, including Atlanta lot of time in various cities, including Atlanta lot of time in various cities, including Atlanta . I belonged to several communities . I belonged to several communities . I belonged to several communities , and each community had its own , and each community had its own , and each community had its own period.

period. period. Looking back, out of the Looking back, out of the Looking back, out of the dozens or hundreds of people I knew while I was in Atlanta, there were dozens or hundreds of people I knew while I was in Atlanta, there were about three people I respected. about three people I respected. In Nashville, I always meet the Acuff brothers In Nashville, I always meet the Acuff brothers In Nashville, I always meet the Acuff brothers . . . John Acuff Yo. John G, who is younger than me, John Acuff Yo. John G, who is younger than me, John Acuff Yo. John G, who is younger than me, considers me his mentor, and considers me his mentor, and considers me his mentor, and I also consider him my mentor I also consider him my mentor I also consider him my mentor . This is because he . This is because he . This is because he excelled in many fields that I am learning, and I excelled in many fields that I am learning, and I excelled in many fields that I am learning, and I also learn a lot from him also learn a lot from him also learn a lot from him . And . And . And in Atlanta, there is one really wise in Atlanta, there is one really wise in Atlanta, there is one really wise and good friend and good friend and good friend . Uh, there is a . Uh, there is a . Uh, there is a business mentor who has helped my business a lot business mentor who has helped my business a lot business mentor who has helped my business a lot , and I met him for the first time because he , and I met him for the first time because he , and I met him for the first time because he wanted to advertise on a podcast wanted to advertise on a podcast wanted to advertise on a podcast . Yes, although there have . Yes, although there have been many advertisers over the years, I developed a special bond with that person, so I booked an developed a special bond with that person, so I booked an event at their home again this fall event at their home again this fall event at their home again this fall . . . and. and. and. And, if any of And, if any of And, if any of you are listening to this podcast, you are listening to this podcast, don't you have one or two people you used to attend a church or denomination with whom you still keep in touch? That can serve as a good foundation for such a person to don't you have one or two people you used to attend a church or denomination with whom you still keep in touch? That can serve as a good foundation for such a person to serve as a board member serve as a board member . We could be together for a few years, or even decades . We could be together for a few years, or even decades . If you are . If you are . If you are not sure, just ask, " not sure, just ask, " Could I get some advice on this problem?" It would be good to ask and see how it turns out. That's absolutely right good to ask and see how it turns out. That's absolutely right .

. . And above all, what is most important is And above all, what is most important is And above all, what is most important is your spiritual side. your spiritual side. your spiritual side. no. It is really important to say, " no. It is really important to say, " If you If you If you have a problem to solve and need to know all the details because it is someone you haven't been in contact with for a long time have a problem to solve and need to know all the details because it is someone you haven't been in contact with for a long time , just , just reach out." reach out." reach out." What should I do What should I do What should I do ? Have you thought about how to get through this situation ? Have you thought about how to get through this situation ? "Carrie, that is a very wise thing to say ? "Carrie, that is a very wise thing to say . We . We cannot accomplish this alone. We will cannot accomplish this alone. We will cannot accomplish this alone. We will eventually be removed. But eventually be removed. But eventually be removed. But we we are surrounded by countless witnesses, including the living and the dead. I am coming to are surrounded by countless witnesses, including the living and the dead. I am coming to rely on them more and more rely on them more and more rely on them more and more . . . There is something I learned when I was a Presbyterian: what truly There is something I learned when I was a Presbyterian: what truly There is something I learned when I was a Presbyterian: what truly matters is that God’s calling is matters is that God’s calling is matters is that God’s calling is confirmed in the assembly of witnesses confirmed in the assembly of witnesses confirmed in the assembly of witnesses . In other words, if I . In other words, if I believe I have been called to ministry, but I am the only one in the believe I have been called to ministry, but I am the only one in the world with such a calling world with such a calling world with such a calling , I could be the next Apostle , I could be the next Apostle , I could be the next Apostle Paul, or Paul, or Paul, or I might be mistaken I might be mistaken I might be mistaken . . . Yes. Yes. Yes. And if you, my And if you, my And if you, my pastor, or anyone else pastor, or anyone else pastor, or anyone else cannot see that calling, cannot see that calling, cannot see that calling, then perhaps I have then perhaps I have then perhaps I have not been called at all. So I was not been called at all. So I was n't sure if I had been called either, because something n't sure if I had been called either, because something supernatural happened supernatural happened supernatural happened . But at the time, I asked my pastor, my . But at the time, I asked my pastor, my . But at the time, I asked my pastor, my parents, and even my parents, and even my parents, and even my pagan friends pagan friends pagan friends .

. . Yes. Yes. Yes. They..." "Ah, you They..." "Ah, you really really really suit the role of pastor." suit the role of pastor." suit the role of pastor." There are people who say that. Then There are people who say that. Then There are people who say that. Then I said, "What did you say?" Okay. I said, "What did you say?" Okay. It feels like my calling is being confirmed through the people around me. And I think there are many advisors in wisdom. Well, we all think there are many advisors in wisdom. Well, we all know. Wisdom know. Wisdom know. Wisdom has many advisors. has many advisors. has many advisors. So, we need to listen to So, we need to listen to So, we need to listen to people praising us and correcting us people praising us and correcting us . One of the things I hate most is that I have a blind spot One of the things I hate most is that I have a blind spot . I really hate it, Carrie. I'm . I really hate it, Carrie. I'm . I really hate it, Carrie. I'm embarrassed. embarrassed. embarrassed. I wish it didn't exist. However, we all have a I wish it didn't exist. However, we all have a blind spot. We all have blind spot. We all have blind spot. We all have blind spots. blind spots. blind spots. And it’s And it’s And it’s really strange when things like this happen. Suddenly, really strange when things like this happen. Suddenly, really strange when things like this happen. Suddenly, about three people were saying the exact same thing about three people were saying the exact same thing about three people were saying the exact same thing . Then I say, "I . Then I say, "I . Then I say, "I understand." Or three people understand." Or three people understand." Or three people call and say, "We are call and say, "We are call and say, "We are praying for you today." That's what praying for you today." That's what praying for you today." That's what they say. Then I always say, "Uh they say. Then I always say, "Uh , what's going on?" You end up doing it. " , what's going on?" You end up doing it. " And I'm not really sure either. You know that, And I'm not really sure either. You know that, And I'm not really sure either. You know that, right? So I think it's important to pay right? So I think it's important to pay right? So I think it's important to pay attention to the people around you and attention to the people around you and attention to the people around you and see what they're doing see what they're doing . Just by listening, the . Just by listening, the board members might come to you board members might come to you board members might come to you . . . Yes. Yes, and I've realized that I need to Yes. Yes, and I've realized that I need to Yes. Yes, and I've realized that I need to start the conversation first start the conversation first start the conversation first . Recently, I . Recently, I . Recently, I asked this question." asked this question."

What do you think needs to be improved in my life? 'Oh What do you think needs to be improved in my life? 'Oh my goodness. Some close friends have my goodness. Some close friends have my goodness. Some close friends have noticed more than I have noticed more than I have noticed more than I have . I've never . I've never . I've never asked people that question asked people that question asked people that question .' I wanted to ask, "What do you think is the cool part of my life that I .' I wanted to ask, "What do you think is the cool part of my life that I .' I wanted to ask, "What do you think is the cool part of my life that I can't see can't see can't see ?" You are ?" You are ?" You are really brave really brave really brave . . . Now, let me tell you a fun story Now, let me tell you a fun story Now, let me tell you a fun story . I was in the AI ​​field, and . I was in the AI ​​field, and . I was in the AI ​​field, and you... you... you... don't get bogged down in that. In a moment, we're going to talk don't get bogged down in that. In a moment, we're going to talk don't get bogged down in that. In a moment, we're going to talk about 'Enhancement, Lethality, and Destruction about 'Enhancement, Lethality, and Destruction about 'Enhancement, Lethality, and Destruction .' Many .' Many .' Many people think that the most important uses of AI in 2025 and 2026 will be people think that the most important uses of AI in 2025 and 2026 will be people think that the most important uses of AI in 2025 and 2026 will be therapy and therapy and therapy and companionship. Then companionship. Then companionship. Then what about you, Annie? For the past 10 minutes, what what about you, Annie? For the past 10 minutes, what what about you, Annie? For the past 10 minutes, what most people have been hearing right now most people have been hearing right now most people have been hearing right now ... is thanks to AI. Let me give ... is thanks to AI. Let me give ... is thanks to AI. Let me give you an example. I had a problem with a few janitors you an example. I had a problem with a few janitors you an example. I had a problem with a few janitors , and I , and I wanted to write a note to talk about their tone. wanted to write a note to talk about their tone. But there was no one else there. But there was no one else there. But there was no one else there. Tony was on a business trip, and I could Tony was on a business trip, and I could n't ask him to read it. So I n't ask him to read it. So I typed it into Claude and sent it typed it into Claude and sent it typed it into Claude and sent it . . . Yes. Yes. Yes. But you can do the same when making the next important decision But you can do the same when making the next important decision . For example, if I take a sabbatical for a few months next summer take a sabbatical for a few months next summer take a sabbatical for a few months next summer , I can input all the information , I can input all the information into Claude. Then I can into Claude. Then I can into Claude. Then I can completely eliminate human intervention completely eliminate human intervention completely eliminate human intervention . Annie, if . Annie, if . Annie, if you look at the generational statistics... As you can see, you look at the generational statistics... As you can see, you look at the generational statistics... As you can see, 72% of teenagers 72% of teenagers 72% of teenagers have regular conversations, and 31% of them prefer have regular conversations, and 31% of them prefer talking to AI over people talking to AI over people . I can tell just by looking at your face . I can tell just by looking at your face . I can tell just by looking at your face . So I am . So I am curious what you think about the role of AI in giving advice curious what you think about the role of AI in giving advice . AI has learned every psychology textbook in the world, after all

. AI has learned every psychology textbook in the world, after all . I want to compare this to consulting Seth Godin or a similar . I want to compare this to consulting Seth Godin or a similar expert expert expert . I am . I am . I am not going to give up on my thoughts, my not going to give up on my thoughts, my not going to give up on my thoughts, my friends. friends. friends. Yes, I am really looking forward to your book Yes, I am really looking forward to your book Yes, I am really looking forward to your book . I am very interested in AI and . I am very interested in AI and . I am very interested in AI and how we protect our souls how we protect our souls . . Yes, that is Yes, that is Yes, that is correct. correct. correct. But I But I But I like optimization. However, Lord, there is something the Holy Spirit like optimization. However, Lord, there is something the Holy Spirit whispered to me during my time as a Jehovah's Witness whispered to me during my time as a Jehovah's Witness . It is that love is . It is that love is . It is that love is not efficient. So, not efficient. So, not efficient. So, I don't need to suppress my soul I don't need to suppress my soul I don't need to suppress my soul . One thing . One thing you might like about Jehovah's Witnesses is that you might like about Jehovah's Witnesses is that you might like about Jehovah's Witnesses is that He always opens my door He always opens my door . For example, . For example, when it rains, "Honey, want to when it rains, "Honey, want to when it rains, "Honey, want to sit down?" "If you ask," no, it's sit down?" "If you ask," no, it's sit down?" "If you ask," no, it's fine. Say that. Or, fine. Say that. Or, "I think I'll be late somewhere, so I ca "I think I'll be late somewhere, so I ca "I think I'll be late somewhere, so I ca n't just sit here." You just n't just sit here." You just n't just sit here." You just need to open the door. You can just say, "..." need to open the door. You can just say, "..." need to open the door. You can just say, "..." The thought that always comes to mind is that " The thought that always comes to mind is that " The thought that always comes to mind is that " love is not efficient love is not efficient ." And I think that is ." And I think that is exactly what young people these days are missing regarding AI. exactly what young people these days are missing regarding AI. They think that efficiency will They think that efficiency will They think that efficiency will solve everything faster solve everything faster solve everything faster . But we need to . But we need to . But we need to slow down. I like AI, slow down. I like AI, slow down. I like AI, but Carrie, a few months ago I but Carrie, a few months ago I posted online about how AI helped me choose my nail polish color. I asked if this was the color I liked, and the AI asked if this was the color I liked, and the AI told me the perfect yellow.

told me the perfect yellow. told me the perfect yellow. And my viewers And my viewers reacted quite sharply to some parts of that. You should check it out for more details, as I missed that post check it out for more details, as I missed that post . . . One was about environmental issues, One was about environmental issues, One was about environmental issues, of course. But there of course. But there of course. But there was also talk about data centers. was also talk about data centers. Why are they using energy there Why are they using energy there ? Right? ? Right? ? Right? Another interesting point is that Another interesting point is that Another interesting point is that people asked, "Why did people asked, "Why did people asked, "Why did n't you ask your friends?" "I n't you ask your friends?" "I n't you ask your friends?" "I asked that. My friends are asked that. My friends are asked that. My friends are n't interested in things like this." n't interested in things like this." n't interested in things like this." Besides, I can't even answer within 0.5 seconds Besides, I can't even answer within 0.5 seconds Besides, I can't even answer within 0.5 seconds . But chatting is . But chatting is . But chatting is possible. "That's what I answered possible. "That's what I answered . And when JW and I were choosing a restaurant . And when JW and I were choosing a restaurant . And when JW and I were choosing a restaurant in Asheville, North Carolina in Asheville, North Carolina in Asheville, North Carolina ," [ __ ], ," [ __ ], these are the things we like, the things we want to see, we want to see the mountains these are the things we like, the things we want to see, we want to see the mountains , we want to eat local food , we want to eat local food ... things like that. Recommend three places for me ... things like that. Recommend three places for me ... things like that. Recommend three places for me . "That's what she said. We . "That's what she said. We . "That's what she said. We call her 'she,' and call her 'she,' and call her 'she,' and she did. I she did. I she did. I called Jack Dasher and asked, 'Since you called Jack Dasher and asked, 'Since you called Jack Dasher and asked, 'Since you live here, live here, live here, where's your favorite restaurant around here?'" I've even where's your favorite restaurant around here?'" I've even asked, asked, asked, "Which yellow would be good?" I sent a text to a friend.

"Which yellow would be good?" I sent a text to a friend. "Which yellow would be good?" I sent a text to a friend. "I could have "I could have "I could have asked, '...' Even if asked, '...' Even if asked, '...' Even if a friend had replied for about 10 minutes a friend had replied for about 10 minutes a friend had replied for about 10 minutes , I would have been fine , I would have been fine , I would have been fine . [ __ ] Goff . [ __ ] Goff . [ __ ] Goff said something wonderful about chatting: said something wonderful about chatting: said something wonderful about chatting: 'Chatting is great intelligence, but it is 'Chatting is great intelligence, but it is 'Chatting is great intelligence, but it is not wisdom not wisdom not wisdom .' That's right. .' That's right. As a parenting expert, she cites instances where parents come to her office and say, 'I asked chatting how to parent,' and says, 'That isn't wisdom; it's just intelligence.' Carrie, while I says, 'That isn't wisdom; it's just intelligence.' Carrie, while I use chatting for intellectual purposes use chatting for intellectual purposes use chatting for intellectual purposes , I try to suppress the urge to use it , I try to suppress the urge to use it , I try to suppress the urge to use it merely as an intelligent tool, hoping it will give me wisdom merely as an intelligent tool, hoping it will give me wisdom . That sounds really . That sounds really wise. (I don't wise. (I don't wise. (I don't know if you're joking or not.) know if you're joking or not.) know if you're joking or not.) Focusing on the human side is Focusing on the human side is Focusing on the human side is really important, and you really important, and you really important, and you do that very well. Everything is do that very well. Everything is about friends, relationships, and things like that. Hmm, shall we talk about thieves about friends, relationships, and things like that. Hmm, shall we talk about thieves coming and stealing, killing, and destroying coming and stealing, killing, and destroying ? Your new book, ' ? Your new book, ' Don't Give Up to It,' Don't Give Up to It,' Don't Give Up to It,' deals with exactly that subject deals with exactly that subject deals with exactly that subject . Why do you address these issues?"

. Why do you address these issues?" . Why do you address these issues?" Have you? We all Have you? We all Have you? We all read the Bible, but we struggle to understand its meaning read the Bible, but we struggle to understand its meaning read the Bible, but we struggle to understand its meaning , don't we? , don't we? , don't we? Well, I don't think we are Well, I don't think we are Well, I don't think we are struggling to understand the meaning, struggling to understand the meaning, struggling to understand the meaning, Carrie. When we Carrie. When we Carrie. When we look at that Bible verse, we think, "A look at that Bible verse, we think, "A look at that Bible verse, we think, "A thief steals, kills, and destroys, thief steals, kills, and destroys, thief steals, kills, and destroys, " but " but " but Jesus Jesus Jesus came to give abundant life. I came to give abundant life. I wonder how often we have meditated on John chapter 10. What does it mean to have something stolen? What does it What does it What does it mean to kill something? What does it mean to destroy something mean to kill something? What does it mean to destroy something ? These three are very ? These three are very different forms of harm, and we different forms of harm, and we different forms of harm, and we react differently to each. react differently to each. However, the enemy of our soul wants us to react vaguely. This is wants us to react vaguely. This is because he is very specific because he is very specific because he is very specific . Of course, our battle . Of course, our battle . Of course, our battle belongs to the Lord, but if the enemy belongs to the Lord, but if the enemy belongs to the Lord, but if the enemy only shoots arrows and does not attack specifically only shoots arrows and does not attack specifically only shoots arrows and does not attack specifically , we will also , we will also only shoot arrows. Or we will only shoot arrows. Or we will only shoot arrows. Or we will only hold up a shield and only hold up a shield and only hold up a shield and attack blindly without using it strategically attack blindly without using it strategically attack blindly without using it strategically . So, my . So, my . So, my advice to you is that what is advice to you is that what is holding you back is the holding you back is the enemy stealing something from your life, or enemy stealing something from your life, or killing, It killing, It killing, It may be the fact that you have destroyed it may be the fact that you have destroyed it may be the fact that you have destroyed it . However, you . However, you have the option to do something.

have the option to do something. Invite God. Then you will no longer be Invite God. Then you will no longer be Invite God. Then you will no longer be blocked. blocked. blocked. And you will be able to run the race set before you And you will be able to run the race set before you . . As a special being created by God for you, you will be able to change the world in ways that no one else can change the world in ways that no one else can . . . Then, what Then, what Then, what is the difference? How is the difference? How is the difference? How can you know if the enemy is active? It is can you know if the enemy is active? It is can you know if the enemy is active? It is truly truly truly interesting. It is really fun to think about these three things interesting. It is really fun to think about these three things . For example, let's assume you are planning to go to seminary assume you are planning to go to seminary assume you are planning to go to seminary . Imagine you have a dream of going to seminary . Imagine you have a dream of going to seminary . Imagine you have a dream of going to seminary . It . It . It is a dream you have cherished throughout your twenties, but as you get married, is a dream you have cherished throughout your twenties, but as you get married, is a dream you have cherished throughout your twenties, but as you get married, have children, and work, you have children, and work, you suddenly find yourself suddenly find yourself never thinking about seminary never thinking about seminary never thinking about seminary again. You wonder why you stopped thinking about it again. You wonder why you stopped thinking about it . If you . If you have dreamed of going to seminary, or if for whatever have dreamed of going to seminary, or if for whatever have dreamed of going to seminary, or if for whatever reason you haven't thought about it for a long time, reason you haven't thought about it for a long time, reason you haven't thought about it for a long time, or if you think, " or if you think, " or if you think, " Seminary is too expensive and Seminary is too expensive and Seminary is too expensive and takes too long, so I can't go," takes too long, so I can't go," takes too long, so I can't go," I would I would I would like to tell you this. hmm. like to tell you this. hmm. That is a dream that was stolen from you That is a dream that was stolen from you . And . And . And what happens if something is stolen? Something like that happened what happens if something is stolen? Something like that happened what happens if something is stolen? Something like that happened to my fiancé a while ago, too to my fiancé a while ago, too to my fiancé a while ago, too . hmm. His . hmm. His . hmm. His car was stolen from his apartment last week car was stolen from his apartment last week . yes.

. yes. . yes. Literally. It was the very day I decided to read an audiobook Literally. It was the very day I decided to read an audiobook . Can you say that enemies don't like stealing, . Can you say that enemies don't like stealing, killing, and destroying killing, and destroying ? I woke up that morning and ? I woke up that morning and he sent me a text he sent me a text he sent me a text . I . I . I can't go because my car is gone. Hmm, can't go because my car is gone. Hmm, can't go because my car is gone. Hmm, what should I do if my car gets stolen? You report it to the police what should I do if my car gets stolen? You report it to the police what should I do if my car gets stolen? You report it to the police , report the missing items , report the missing items , report the missing items , and wait for the police to recover the car and , and wait for the police to recover the car and , and wait for the police to recover the car and punish the thief punish the thief punish the thief . hmm. It is the . hmm. It is the same when your dream is stolen. I pray to God same when your dream is stolen. I pray to God . I am having a dream . I am having a dream . I am having a dream . I haven't been able to dream for a long time . I haven't been able to dream for a long time . I haven't been able to dream for a long time . Please give me back my dream . Please give me back my dream . Please give me back my dream . I was dreaming of going to seminary. . I was dreaming of going to seminary. . I was dreaming of going to seminary. God, God, please take that dream back from the enemy who stole it. "I wish you would please take that dream back from the enemy who stole it. "I wish you would return it to me and return it to me and return it to me and punish the enemy for stealing it from me punish the enemy for stealing it from me punish the enemy for stealing it from me . . Only then will you start wondering why flyers for seminaries for parents and working moms suddenly arrived in the mail, and what on earth happened . That is when you realize something has been stolen. That is a realize something has been stolen. That is a really good way to put it. It’s the really good way to put it. It’s the really good way to put it. It’s the first time I’ve heard it explained that way first time I’ve heard it explained that way first time I’ve heard it explained that way .

. . You expressed it that way in your book as well, but you are absolutely You expressed it that way in your book as well, but you are absolutely You expressed it that way in your book as well, but you are absolutely right. That is exactly right. That is exactly right. That is exactly how you think. how you think. how you think. If my car had been stolen, If my car had been stolen, If my car had been stolen, I would have thought my car had been stolen, too I would have thought my car had been stolen, too I would have thought my car had been stolen, too . They . They said it was somewhere in the parking lot, but when I said, 'It’s not there, said it was somewhere in the parking lot, but when I said, 'It’s not there, ' they would say, 'Oh, it’s ' they would say, 'Oh, it’s ' they would say, 'Oh, it’s okay, that’s a relief.'" okay, that’s a relief.'" okay, that’s a relief.'" But it feels a bit strange, doesn't it? But it feels a bit strange, doesn't it? But it feels a bit strange, doesn't it? "He said that. And in such a "He said that. And in such a "He said that. And in such a situation, naturally, I would report it to the police situation, naturally, I would report it to the police situation, naturally, I would report it to the police . Recovering the lost item is . Recovering the lost item is not my job; it is the police's job. not my job; it is the police's job. Punishing the thief is not my job either Punishing the thief is not my job either . If the stolen item is . If the stolen item is recovered, my job is to accept that fact and recovered, my job is to accept that fact and recovered, my job is to accept that fact and move forward move forward move forward . So, . So, what should we do when something is stolen? Yes, it is the what should we do when something is stolen? Yes, it is the same when something dies same when something dies same when something dies . Let me give you the same example. . Let me give you the same example. Imagine you wanted to go to seminary, but after completing all the inspections, the doors were closed. You either missed the opportunity, or you got in but could n't afford the tuition. So, when something dies, or when something dies, or when something dies, or when someone tells us about it, what should we actually do when someone tells us about it, what should we actually do when someone tells us about it, what should we actually do ? ? ? When death approaches, if we look at the Bible, we When death approaches, if we look at the Bible, we When death approaches, if we look at the Bible, we must grieve first. We must must grieve first. We must must grieve first. We must speak the truth and grieve.

speak the truth and grieve. speak the truth and grieve. And then, we ask God for resurrection And then, we ask God for resurrection , or for new life. , or for new life. There is a story about resurrection that I like, and although my There is a story about resurrection that I like, and although my friends may already know it, I will friends may already know it, I will friends may already know it, I will tell it to you again tell it to you again . . When Jesus resurrected in the Garden of Gethsemane, Mary did When Jesus resurrected in the Garden of Gethsemane, Mary did not recognize Him. This is It shows that resurrection is not recognize Him. This is It shows that resurrection is not the same as the previous life not the same as the previous life not the same as the previous life . I often . I often pray to God to restore relationships, to restore opportunities, or to restore dreams I already had. Then pray to God to restore relationships, to restore opportunities, or to restore dreams I already had. Then God says, "No, no, God says, "No, no, God says, "No, no, no." Life and resurrection are not the same. It will never be the same no." Life and resurrection are not the same. It will never be the same no." Life and resurrection are not the same. It will never be the same . He says, "..." . He says, "..." . He says, "..." Our church Our church holds a fasting prayer every February. At that time, the church was holds a fasting prayer every February. At that time, the church was going through a difficult period, and I going through a difficult period, and I was praying for the staff. I said, "God, please bring back everything you have done here." Please bring all of this please bring back everything you have done here." Please bring all of this back to life. I prayed that back to life. I prayed that back to life. I prayed that . Towards the end of the fast . Towards the end of the fast . Towards the end of the fast , Carey, the Lord , Carey, the Lord , Carey, the Lord spoke to me so clearly spoke to me so clearly spoke to me so clearly . You didn't ask me to do anything . You didn't ask me to do anything . You didn't ask me to do anything . I was asking for 2018 . I was asking for 2018 . I was asking for 2018 back.

back. back. ' ' yes that's right. I'm right, too. yes that's right. I'm right, too. The Lord did The Lord did The Lord did n't tell me to do something new. Because what we had has n't tell me to do something new. Because what we had has n't tell me to do something new. Because what we had has disappeared. I disappeared. I disappeared. I thought so. And thought so. And thought so. And another option is a new life another option is a new life another option is a new life . To take the seminary story as . To take the seminary story as . To take the seminary story as an example, 'I missed the opportunity an example, 'I missed the opportunity .' The door closed. I couldn't get admitted or I don't have .' The door closed. I couldn't get admitted or I don't have .' The door closed. I couldn't get admitted or I don't have enough money for tuition. That's what I enough money for tuition. That's what I enough money for tuition. That's what I think. But the following year, Bu-hwal think. But the following year, Bu-hwal received a call saying he had passed. Oh my god, received a call saying he had passed. Oh my god, the chance is back! It's like the chance is back! It's like the chance is back! It's like shouting, '...' shouting, '...' shouting, '...' Another seminary. Another seminary. Another seminary. Or there is another seminary. that's Or there is another seminary. that's Or there is another seminary. that's right. Or a new life is right. Or a new life is ... "Ah, I can't go to seminary, ... "Ah, I can't go to seminary, ... "Ah, I can't go to seminary, but our church but our church but our church opened a class like New Testament School, and it's opened a class like New Testament School, and it's opened a class like New Testament School, and it's really interesting. really interesting. Square Church in Smyrna, Atlanta, also runs a New Testament Square Church in Smyrna, Atlanta, also runs a New Testament School; they have homework and they School; they have homework and they School; they have homework and they study hard. It's study hard. It's study hard. It's not seminary, but it's a not seminary, but it's a not seminary, but it's a step toward it. So step toward it. So step toward it. So when something dies, that's exactly what you have to when something dies, that's exactly what you have to when something dies, that's exactly what you have to look for. look for. look for. When something is destroyed, When something is destroyed, When something is destroyed, the situation is different, Carrie. the situation is different, Carrie. the situation is different, Carrie. Because even if something is destroyed, it is still Because even if something is destroyed, it is still Because even if something is destroyed, it is still there there there . It's just at your feet . It's just at your feet . It's just at your feet .

. . Yeah. So, God. For Yeah. So, God. For Yeah. So, God. For example, seminary," I finished my first semester example, seminary," I finished my first semester example, seminary," I finished my first semester and failed every subject and failed every subject and failed every subject . I had debts, and I did . I had debts, and I did . I had debts, and I did n't have the heart to do it. And now my dream has n't have the heart to do it. And now my dream has n't have the heart to do it. And now my dream has been shattered. "God, please been shattered. "God, please tell me what I need to rebuild and what I need to sort out before leaving." Pray like this tell me what I need to rebuild and what I need to sort out before leaving." Pray like this . Each has a . Each has a . Each has a different meaning. When you feel the enemy pressing down on your life different meaning. When you feel the enemy pressing down on your life or feel blocked in any way or feel blocked in any way , , , ask yourself, or sit down and think about it with your spiritual leader ask yourself, or sit down and think about it with your spiritual leader ask yourself, or sit down and think about it with your spiritual leader or counselor or counselor or counselor . Is something being . Is something being . Is something being stolen, killed, or stolen, killed, or stolen, killed, or destroyed? 'And destroyed? 'And destroyed? 'And then, identify the category in which the enemy intends to attack you then, identify the category in which the enemy intends to attack you then, identify the category in which the enemy intends to attack you ,' ,' now, let's go through three steps now, let's go through three steps now, let's go through three steps . Think of it that way. . Think of it that way. . Think of it that way. You know, that's really nice. You know, that's really nice. You know, that's really nice. And speaking of destruction And speaking of destruction And speaking of destruction , last year was a , last year was a , last year was a really tough year for me. An really tough year for me. An really tough year for me. An ice storm hit my neighborhood ice storm hit my neighborhood ice storm hit my neighborhood . In severe cases, it . In severe cases, it looked as if a tornado or a hurricane had swept through.

looked as if a tornado or a hurricane had swept through. Almost all the trees in the backyard Almost all the trees in the backyard Almost all the trees in the backyard fell down. I used to have fell down. I used to have fell down. I used to have good privacy, but I was sad all good privacy, but I was sad all good privacy, but I was sad all summer because the trees were all gone summer because the trees were all gone summer because the trees were all gone . We did . We did . We did replant the trees, but we weren't planting 40-year-old replant the trees, but we weren't planting 40-year-old replant the trees, but we weren't planting 40-year-old trees; we were planting 7 to 8- trees; we were planting 7 to 8- trees; we were planting 7 to 8- foot trees foot trees foot trees . I spent the whole last summer looking at the things that were gone . I spent the whole last summer looking at the things that were gone . Then, I received a five-week vacation this summer I received a five-week vacation this summer , and since the trees had grown a little, I , and since the trees had grown a little, I planted a few more as soon as I had the budget. Come to think of it, I thought, ' planted a few more as soon as I had the budget. Come to think of it, I thought, ' Ah, this is a bit different, but it is really Ah, this is a bit different, but it is really Ah, this is a bit different, but it is really beautiful beautiful beautiful .' And I .' And I really liked that I gave a very trivial example compared to other huge losses. However, yes, really liked that I gave a very trivial example compared to other huge losses. However, yes, after destruction, 2018 is often after destruction, 2018 is often after destruction, 2018 is often no longer 2018, but 2027 could be no longer 2018, but 2027 could be no longer 2018, but 2027 could be different, different, different, better, or more prosperous better, or more prosperous better, or more prosperous . And it seems the temptation to ' . And it seems the temptation to ' . And it seems the temptation to ' want to get back what we had' is want to get back what we had' is want to get back what we had' is growing stronger. As growing stronger. As time goes by, happy memories time goes by, happy memories accumulate. That accumulate. That accumulate. That is a really helpful framework.

is a really helpful framework. is a really helpful framework. And another message I really want to convey to people is that And another message I really want to convey to people is that this is not an optimistic story this is not an optimistic story . It . It . It doesn't mean you can do anything. You doesn't mean you can do anything. You doesn't mean you can do anything. You can handle all the sadness at once can handle all the sadness at once can handle all the sadness at once . For example, in 2022, . For example, in 2022, . For example, in 2022, my nephew passed away just 56 days after birth my nephew passed away just 56 days after birth , a close friend had their , a close friend had their life ruined and life ruined and life ruined and lost their family, and the whole lost their family, and the whole lost their family, and the whole world was destroyed by an epidemic. world was destroyed by an epidemic. world was destroyed by an epidemic. And I And I And I suffered an injury where my knee meniscus was torn suffered an injury where my knee meniscus was torn suffered an injury where my knee meniscus was torn . All of this happened in just 7 days . All of this happened in just 7 days . "And I just . "And I just thought, 'I can't survive.' Carrie, lying in bed the night I hurt my knee, I in bed the night I hurt my knee, I in bed the night I hurt my knee, I said this to the Lord said this to the Lord said this to the Lord ." "Even with two legs, I cannot accomplish the work the Lord ." "Even with two legs, I cannot accomplish the work the Lord ." "Even with two legs, I cannot accomplish the work the Lord has given me in my life has given me in my life has given me in my life . It . It . It is even more impossible with one leg. is even more impossible with one leg. So, I prayed to the Lord very So, I prayed to the Lord very So, I prayed to the Lord very honestly." " honestly." " honestly." " Please fix it all night long. I look forward to seeing it working perfectly in the morning Please fix it all night long. I look forward to seeing it working perfectly in the morning . Good night . Good night ." "Please heal me, ." "Please heal me, ." "Please heal me, " I prayed, and the Lord healed me " I prayed, and the Lord healed me " I prayed, and the Lord healed me . I was so sad because of all those things, and I . I was so sad because of all those things, and I . I was so sad because of all those things, and I completely completely completely broke down. But it is broke down. But it is broke down. But it is okay to feel those emotions.

okay to feel those emotions. okay to feel those emotions. Those feelings might all be true, and Those feelings might all be true, and Those feelings might all be true, and at the same time, you need to ask yourself, "God, at the same time, you need to ask yourself, "God, at the same time, you need to ask yourself, "God, what should I do from now on what should I do from now on what should I do from now on ?" It is ?" It is not about ignoring hardships or pain, but about finding the purpose of life within them. about finding the purpose of life within them. How does sadness manifest in your life How does sadness manifest in your life How does sadness manifest in your life ? ? ? What do you feel when you are sad? I What do you feel when you are sad? I What do you feel when you are sad? I learned something truly amazing. learned something truly amazing. learned something truly amazing. And I realized that I had been going through a difficult time And I realized that I had been going through a difficult time And I realized that I had been going through a difficult time . For three . For three . For three months. One of those months was with my months. One of those months was with my months. One of those months was with my family, my niece. It family, my niece. It family, my niece. It was 2017, and I remember being so exhausted back then was 2017, and I remember being so exhausted back then was 2017, and I remember being so exhausted back then . Then . Then . Then I read something somewhere, and I realized that, as you know, if you I read something somewhere, and I realized that, as you know, if you I read something somewhere, and I realized that, as you know, if you keep crying and keep crying and keep crying and crying, you eventually just end up completely crying, you eventually just end up completely crying, you eventually just end up completely burned out burned out burned out . I had absolutely . I had absolutely . I had absolutely no energy and didn't know what the problem was no energy and didn't know what the problem was no energy and didn't know what the problem was . I couldn't sleep properly either . I couldn't sleep properly either . I couldn't sleep properly either . Sadness, at least in my life . Sadness, at least in my life . Sadness, at least in my life , sometimes manifests as fatigue , sometimes manifests as fatigue , sometimes manifests as fatigue . So when I . So when I . So when I have less energy than usual or have less energy than usual or have less energy than usual or take too many naps, I think, "I am take too many naps, I think, "I am take too many naps, I think, "I am sad about something..." "I find myself thinking, 'Is that it?' sad about something..." "I find myself thinking, 'Is that it?' Aside from tears and other expected emotions, sadness overwhelmed me Aside from tears and other expected emotions, sadness overwhelmed me , and I had a similar experience earlier this year , and I had a similar experience earlier this year , and I had a similar experience earlier this year ." "Ah, I guess I'm feeling ." "Ah, I guess I'm feeling ." "Ah, I guess I'm feeling sad about something," sad about something," I think. Then, if I just let it flow, my I think. Then, if I just let it flow, my I think. Then, if I just let it flow, my energy does return, energy does return, energy does return, but do you ever experience sadness manifesting but do you ever experience sadness manifesting but do you ever experience sadness manifesting in a peculiar way in a peculiar way in a peculiar way ? As leaders, ? As leaders, ? As leaders, we are so busy and we are so busy and shoulder so much responsibility that I shoulder so much responsibility that I think we sometimes fail to properly feel sadness. We think we sometimes fail to properly feel sadness. We suppress our emotions, and we know what happens when we do suppress our emotions, and we know what happens when we do . In my case, well, it . In my case, well, it 's cynicism. I'm

's cynicism. I'm 's cynicism. I'm not a cynical person, but when I not a cynical person, but when I see something and think, "Really?" Are you see something and think, "Really?" Are you sure the Gospel really changed your life sure the Gospel really changed your life sure the Gospel really changed your life ? Are you really ? Are you really ? Are you really sure you've changed? Are you sure this conference is really sure you've changed? Are you sure this conference is really sure you've changed? Are you sure this conference is really important? "I important? "I important? "I am not the kind of person who says that. am not the kind of person who says that. am not the kind of person who says that. If I were to think that way If I were to think that way If I were to think that way , there would be something wrong with my emotions , there would be something wrong with my emotions . I’m probably . I’m probably . I’m probably grieving over something grieving over something grieving over something . But I . But I need sleep just like you do. Sleep is need sleep just like you do. Sleep is need sleep just like you do. Sleep is really important. However, I believe that for really important. However, I believe that for really important. However, I believe that for leaders, the brain leaders, the brain leaders, the brain doesn't stop, but the system doesn't stop, but the system doesn't stop, but the system can. can. Ah, that’s right. Exactly. Ah, that’s right. Exactly. Yes, so when I lie down and fall asleep... Yes, so when I lie down and fall asleep... " Ah, it must be because my brain has stopped. " Ah, it must be because my brain has stopped. " Ah, it must be because my brain has stopped. My brain does My brain does My brain does n't stop on its own, but my system n't stop on its own, but my system n't stop on its own, but my system can stop. "I come to realize this can stop. "I come to realize this can stop. "I come to realize this . And that . And that gives me a great sense of relief. gives me a great sense of relief. When I woke up two hours after being immersed in grief, I was grateful because it felt like I had been healed during those two hours . . Healing took place while I slept, even amidst my sorrow Healing took place while I slept, even amidst my sorrow Healing took place while I slept, even amidst my sorrow . So I am truly grateful . So I am truly grateful for the fact that getting more tired when I am grieving actually helps for the fact that getting more tired when I am grieving actually helps .

. . No, I am No, I am No, I am glad we are sharing this story. glad we are sharing this story. Pastor Terry, a mentor I often quote, said a long time ago, 'Ministry is a series of losses where one cannot feel sorrow.' Come to series of losses where one cannot feel sorrow.' Come to think of it, life is the same, isn't it? That's right think of it, life is the same, isn't it? That's right think of it, life is the same, isn't it? That's right . That's right. If I did . That's right. If I did . That's right. If I did n't have energy, if I didn't sleep for even two hours during the day n't have energy, if I didn't sleep for even two hours during the day , I probably would , I probably would n't feel sorrow. No, n't feel sorrow. No, n't feel sorrow. No, you wouldn't even need to feel sorrow. you wouldn't even need to feel sorrow. Yes, that's correct." Why can't my body Yes, that's correct." Why can't my body last all day? "You last all day? "You need to start asking yourself that question. And it is really worthwhile to investigate and make an effort to represent need to start asking yourself that question. And it is really worthwhile to investigate and make an effort to represent yourself well in what is happening yourself well in what is happening . . Yes. I mean, you are really Yes. I mean, you are really Yes. I mean, you are really busy. You are going to get married busy. You are going to get married busy. You are going to get married , and you will be married by the time this broadcast airs , and you will be married by the time this broadcast airs , and you will be married by the time this broadcast airs . You even appeared on the TV show ' . You even appeared on the TV show ' . You even appeared on the TV show ' Annie.' Annie.' Annie.' So, So, So, then," then," then," what would you do if you knew you were going to fail? " what would you do if you knew you were going to fail? " what would you do if you knew you were going to fail? " When you asked that," I was about When you asked that," I was about When you asked that," I was about to bring that up right away. That to bring that up right away. That makes no sense. So that's why you're doing it makes no sense. So that's why you're doing it ? yes ? yes ? yes . Yes, because we have absolutely . Yes, because we have absolutely . Yes, because we have absolutely no idea. It's really strange, no idea. It's really strange, no idea. It's really strange, Carrie. To those of you listening to our broadcast Carrie. To those of you listening to our broadcast Carrie. To those of you listening to our broadcast , especially those friends interested in leadership work, you will , especially those friends interested in leadership work, you will like this story. No matter what I do , I never do work where I cannot track metrics , I never do work where I cannot track metrics , I never do work where I cannot track metrics , find a way to celebrate achievements , find a way to celebrate achievements , find a way to celebrate achievements , or set goals to pursue , or set goals to pursue . But when . But when you make a TV program, you you make a TV program, you can't check any metrics, can you? It might can't check any metrics, can you? It might

go up in the rankings on Amazon Prime for a while, but go up in the rankings on Amazon Prime for a while, but what does that mean? what does that mean? what does that mean? Does that mean 8 people saw it? Does that mean 8 people saw it? Does that mean 8 people saw it? Does that mean 800,000 people watched it? You Does that mean 800,000 people watched it? You Does that mean 800,000 people watched it? You can't know. Then, did it fail can't know. Then, did it fail can't know. Then, did it fail ? That could be the case. I'm not sure either ? That could be the case. I'm not sure either ? That could be the case. I'm not sure either . I have absolutely no idea . I have absolutely no idea . I have absolutely no idea . So I have no idea where . So I have no idea where . So I have no idea where making TV programs will making TV programs will making TV programs will lead my life lead my life lead my life . But there are many friends . But there are many friends . But there are many friends around us who quit after doing a program for one, five around us who quit after doing a program for one, five , or even two seasons, aren't there? , or even two seasons, aren't there? "I do "I do n't do it anymore. And this isn't a n't do it anymore. And this isn't a n't do it anymore. And this isn't a new career path for me new career path for me new career path for me . It's just . It's just . It's just another medium for sharing content that is important to me another medium for sharing content that is important to me another medium for sharing content that is important to me . As long as the door to that medium is . As long as the door to that medium is . As long as the door to that medium is open, I will open, I will open, I will continue to use it. And continue to use it. And continue to use it. And that door—the barrier to getting there—is that door—the barrier to getting there—is that door—the barrier to getting there—is low now. It's open to all of us low now. It's open to all of us low now. It's open to all of us . You and I are . You and I are . You and I are doing it right now, too. People are doing it right now, too. People are doing it right now, too. People are always watching YouTube. There are plenty of always watching YouTube. There are plenty of streaming opportunities, so we could all be doing something somewhere.

could all be doing something somewhere. So I am grateful. So I am grateful. So I am grateful. But I'm not sure how to judge success But I'm not sure how to judge success But I'm not sure how to judge success . What interested me is that I . What interested me is that I looked at various metrics looked at various metrics . I . I don't know your exact numbers, but don't know your exact numbers, but don't know your exact numbers, but I know mine. Programs like yours and mine have I know mine. Programs like yours and mine have more viewers than many TV shows more viewers than many TV shows . . . Of course, I'm not telling the super 100% truth. I'm Of course, I'm not telling the super 100% truth. I'm talking about daytime shows or even some prime-time programs that used to have low ratings talking about daytime shows or even some prime-time programs that used to have low ratings . For example, look at shows . For example, look at shows . For example, look at shows like The Joe Rogan Show or 'CEO's Diary.' The like The Joe Rogan Show or 'CEO's Diary.' The TV shows I like do n't get that kind of ratings. It's on a much larger scale than movie streaming. Podcasting is a much bigger market than that. And you, too..." You are is a much bigger market than that. And you, too..." You are running a program of quite a large scale, you know running a program of quite a large scale, you know running a program of quite a large scale, you know . So, I do . So, I do n't think the number of listeners is necessarily higher. I might be wrong, but for you and me to turn you and me to turn on the microphone and on the microphone and on the microphone and host a podcast, it takes a few hours to host a podcast, it takes a few hours to host a podcast, it takes a few hours to prepare, and a few more hours to actually record and prepare, and a few more hours to actually record and prepare, and a few more hours to actually record and do the intro and outro do the intro and outro do the intro and outro .

. However, I think TV broadcasting requires five or However, I think TV broadcasting requires five or ten times more effort than that ten times more effort than that ten times more effort than that . At the very least, the . At the very least, the number of viewers would be ten times higher number of viewers would be ten times higher . . . Staff? What do you mean Staff? What do you mean Staff? What do you mean ? I mean the staff. When I ? I mean the staff. When I ? I mean the staff. When I look around, I think, 'Are they all look around, I think, 'Are they all look around, I think, 'Are they all just going to watch me do this? just going to watch me do this? just going to watch me do this? I always do this alone. I always do this alone. I always do this alone. ' But ' But ' But there are staff members. there are staff members. there are staff members. It's like... It's like... It's like... Yes, that's right. It's really fascinating. Yes, that's right. It's really fascinating. Yes, that's right. It's really fascinating. And that part is a bit unique And that part is a bit unique And that part is a bit unique . We recorded the entire season . We recorded the entire season . We recorded the entire season in just three days. I think Season 1 in just three days. I think Season 1 in just three days. I think Season 1 had six episodes; we had six episodes; we recorded three one day, three the next, and recorded all the interstitial recorded three one day, three the next, and recorded all the interstitial videos, intros, and outros on the videos, intros, and outros on the videos, intros, and outros on the third day third day third day . . . Yes. Once everything is finished, there are Yes. Once everything is finished, there are Yes. Once everything is finished, there are about 10 editors... I hand it over to the team. about 10 editors... I hand it over to the team. And there is preparation work to be done And there is preparation work to be done , right? For me, the , right? For me, the , right? For me, the preparation preparation preparation time was much longer than for a regular podcast.

time was much longer than for a regular podcast. time was much longer than for a regular podcast. But then the But then the But then the running time would be shorter. running time would be shorter. running time would be shorter. Ours is about 90 minutes now Ours is about 90 minutes now Ours is about 90 minutes now , but the recorded part is about 22 minutes, right , but the recorded part is about 22 minutes, right , but the recorded part is about 22 minutes, right ? ? ? We We We record about 60 to 80 minutes per episode, and we selected 20 minutes of that record about 60 to 80 minutes per episode, and we selected 20 minutes of that record about 60 to 80 minutes per episode, and we selected 20 minutes of that . Yes. Um, . Yes. Um, . Yes. Um, really, Carrie, this is a completely different really, Carrie, this is a completely different really, Carrie, this is a completely different medium. It is entirely medium. It is entirely medium. It is entirely different from video. Podcasting—that was different from video. Podcasting—that was different from video. Podcasting—that was really surprising. And really surprising. And really surprising. And sometimes, "Listen to this, you're going to be sometimes, "Listen to this, you're going to be sometimes, "Listen to this, you're going to be shocked!" There were moments where I could say, "..." shocked!" There were moments where I could say, "..." shocked!" There were moments where I could say, "..." I I I was conducting an interview, and there were was conducting an interview, and there were was conducting an interview, and there were three other people sitting at the table three other people sitting at the table three other people sitting at the table . My idea was to . My idea was to invite one ordinary friend, an expert, and a celebrity for each topic. Four invite one ordinary friend, an expert, and a celebrity for each topic. Four people would sit around the table and people would sit around the table and people would sit around the table and discuss the subject discuss the subject discuss the subject . So, for the finance segment, a . So, for the finance segment, a woman who founded an incredibly wealthy company appeared. As for the experts, Anthony As for the experts, Anthony O'Neill and my friend Kelly also O'Neill and my friend Kelly also O'Neill and my friend Kelly also came on. came on. came on. Kelly knows a lot about money Kelly knows a lot about money Kelly knows a lot about money . My friend Kelly just . My friend Kelly just . My friend Kelly just came on the show to talk. It was came on the show to talk. It was came on the show to talk. It was really fun. But while really fun. But while really fun. But while I was conducting the interview and things were flowing smoothly I was conducting the interview and things were flowing smoothly I was conducting the interview and things were flowing smoothly , the producer came over and said, , the producer came over and said, "Excuse me, but "Excuse me, but "Excuse me, but could we stop for a moment?" "That's what I'm asking could we stop for a moment?" "That's what I'm asking could we stop for a moment?" "That's what I'm asking . Hmm, here, 'smoothly . Hmm, here, 'smoothly . Hmm, here, 'smoothly flowing' probably means..." Would you flowing' probably means..." Would you flowing' probably means..." Would you perhaps like to ask a question like this perhaps like to ask a question like this ? "That must mean that, you know.

? "That must mean that, you know. ? "That must mean that, you know. So I..." W-what are you doing So I..." W-what are you doing So I..." W-what are you doing ? I said that. I ? I said that. I ? I said that. I am right in the middle of the flow. Yes, am right in the middle of the flow. Yes, am right in the middle of the flow. Yes, yes, yes, yes. yes, yes, yes. yes, yes, yes. That's right. She knelt beside the table That's right. She knelt beside the table That's right. She knelt beside the table . Okay, just a moment . Okay, just a moment . Okay, just a moment . She is really . She is really . She is really amazing. My name is Ian Te amazing. My name is Ian Te amazing. My name is Ian Te Jones. It's unbelievable Jones. It's unbelievable Jones. It's unbelievable . But no one has ever . But no one has ever . But no one has ever approached me like this before approached me like this before approached me like this before . Yes, yes, yes, . Yes, yes, yes, . Yes, yes, yes, thank you. Hmm, I'll thank you. Hmm, I'll thank you. Hmm, I'll stop here and change it to a different way stop here and change it to a different way stop here and change it to a different way . Then you do . Then you do n't know what to do with this media. That's strange. You will think that. They think that. They think that. They stopped me right there. stopped me right there. stopped me right there. It's an audiobook. It's an audiobook. I think I mumble a lot and my pronunciation is unclear. i know. I think I mumble a lot and my pronunciation is unclear. i know. But my podcast listeners will But my podcast listeners will But my podcast listeners will forgive me, right? The forgive me, right? The forgive me, right? The audiobook audiobook sounds just like the English of the Queen of England. that's sounds just like the English of the Queen of England. that's sounds just like the English of the Queen of England. that's right. right. right. You have to stop every other sentence. So at some You have to stop every other sentence. So at some You have to stop every other sentence. So at some point, if you just want to... point, if you just want to... because it is a really unusual thing because it is a really unusual thing because it is a really unusual thing . It's a really unusual thing . It's a really unusual thing . It's a really unusual thing . Completely different... I mean, the . Completely different... I mean, the . Completely different... I mean, the beauty of this audiobook is that beauty of this audiobook is that beauty of this audiobook is that I always I always I always want to be an amateur at something want to be an amateur at something want to be an amateur at something . I want to learn. . I want to learn. So, on my first day, I So, on my first day, I said this to everyone. " said this to everyone. " Today is the Today is the Today is the first day of my life making a TV program first day of my life making a TV program first day of my life making a TV program . From today on, I will . From today on, I will never be able to be a beginner again never be able to be a beginner again never be able to be a beginner again ." So I ." So I ." So I wanted to mention this point. As you probably already wanted to mention this point. As you probably already wanted to mention this point. As you probably already know.

know. know. And I am And I am really grateful to be able to do things I haven't been able to do before. That's how Season 2 really grateful to be able to do things I haven't been able to do before. That's how Season 2 turned out. turned out. turned out. Actually, 10 years ago, I hosted a Actually, 10 years ago, I hosted a nationally broadcast TV program in Canada nationally broadcast TV program in Canada . I used to host as a guest semi-regularly . I used to host as a guest semi-regularly . that's . that's . that's right. I right. I right. I forgot the name Huntley forgot the name Huntley forgot the name Huntley . It was fun for a few years . It was fun for a few years . It was fun for a few years . I went to Toronto and . I went to Toronto and . I went to Toronto and filmed for a day or two. There was filmed for a day or two. There was no interruption in the middle. yes no interruption in the middle. yes no interruption in the middle. yes . . . But I had to meet the set time But I had to meet the set time But I had to meet the set time . . . One of the reasons I wanted to do podcasting is that I One of the reasons I wanted to do podcasting is that I wanted to have conversations in a free-spirited atmosphere. wanted to have conversations in a free-spirited atmosphere. 99% of this interview is unedited 99% of this interview is unedited . yes. As you can see. I wanted to have a natural conversation, just like we were sitting down and talking. We were wanted to have a natural conversation, just like we were sitting down and talking. We were sitting and having a conversation sitting and having a conversation sitting and having a conversation . So, um, . So, um, . So, um, aside from the learning process, what do you think is the difference between TV programs aside from the learning process, what do you think is the difference between TV programs aside from the learning process, what do you think is the difference between TV programs and podcasts and podcasts and podcasts ? ? Well, one of the reasons I decided to appear is that I wanted my work and content to be shown to people who don't believe in everything we believe in wanted my work and content to be shown to people who don't believe in everything we believe in . that's . that's . that's right. This was right. This was right. This was n't for Christian broadcasting. that's right.

n't for Christian broadcasting. that's right. n't for Christian broadcasting. that's right. Of course, I like everyone who creates Of course, I like everyone who creates good programs for devout families good programs for devout families , and I think those programs are , and I think those programs are excellent. excellent. excellent. But that isn't my goal But that isn't my goal But that isn't my goal . My goal is to sit next to Drew, . My goal is to sit next to Drew, . My goal is to sit next to Drew, Kelly Clarkson, and Tameron Hall and Kelly Clarkson, and Tameron Hall and Kelly Clarkson, and Tameron Hall and talk. I talk. I don't necessarily want to appear on terrestrial TV, but when people are don't necessarily want to appear on terrestrial TV, but when people are flipping through channels flipping through channels flipping through channels wondering what to watch on Amazon Prime, I want them to think, wondering what to watch on Amazon Prime, I want them to think, wondering what to watch on Amazon Prime, I want them to think, "I've never seen that person before, but "I've never seen that person before, but "I've never seen that person before, but that's an interesting conversation." I that's an interesting conversation." I that's an interesting conversation." I want to make them think that. "And want to make them think that. "And want to make them think that. "And that led them to John Acuff, who was one of my guests that led them to John Acuff, who was one of my guests . And then . And then they they they came to the gospel through his ministry, right? came to the gospel through his ministry, right? came to the gospel through his ministry, right? So that was exactly what I was aiming for when I made this TV show So that was exactly what I was aiming for when I made this TV show . I am really happy to be making this . I am really happy to be making this program with The Wonder Project program with The Wonder Project . The production team is called 32 Flavors . The production team is called 32 Flavors , the people who produce Real House, , the people who produce Real House, , the people who produce Real House, Eves of Orange County, Eves of Orange County, and Vander Pump Rules and Vander Pump Rules and Vander Pump Rules . I thought, 'I'm going to . I thought, 'I'm going to . I thought, 'I'm going to really like this guy really like this guy really like this guy .' I told the person in charge, .' I told the person in charge, .' I told the person in charge, Alex Baskin, 'He is a really Alex Baskin, 'He is a really Alex Baskin, 'He is a really great person. It is a huge stroke of luck to be able to work great person. It is a huge stroke of luck to be able to work with legendary figures in a field I have just stepped into.

' ' But I asked Alex, 'Look, But I asked Alex, 'Look, But I asked Alex, 'Look, why do you want to do this show why do you want to do this show why do you want to do this show ? You ? You ? You are a top-level expert.' are a top-level expert.' are a top-level expert.' And I added, 'I'm not going to let you film me And I added, 'I'm not going to let you film me going to Mexico with my friends, drinking, and going to Mexico with my friends, drinking, and going to Mexico with my friends, drinking, and fighting fighting . That's not what I want to make.' " He said, "I get paid to make incredibly chaotic TV shows, but I get paid to make incredibly chaotic TV shows, but I feel peaceful when I am with you. feel peaceful when I am with you. feel peaceful when I am with you. I want to capture that feeling on TV I want to capture that feeling on TV . That is exactly why I do this work . That is exactly why I do this work . That is exactly why I do this work ." He said that. ." He said that. ." He said that. So I said, "I will keep doing this work So I said, "I will keep doing this work So I said, "I will keep doing this work . I . I . I don't just want to be a bystander. I just want to don't just want to be a bystander. I just want to be another invitation to people be another invitation to people be another invitation to people ." That's what I thought ." That's what I thought ." That's what I thought . "When you invite people over to your home to . "When you invite people over to your home to . "When you invite people over to your home to watch something, you watch something, you could put on a show like 'I Got to Ask' in the neighborhood and have a conversation about faith, right ? So ? So ? So I'm really interested in those kinds of conversations I'm really interested in those kinds of conversations . I used to be a church friend . I used to be a church friend . I used to be a church friend , I was a church person, and I , I was a church person, and I , I was a church person, and I still am. Even though I still am. Even though I don't lead a church every day. Try searching for 'I Got to Ask' on Amazon Prime 'I Got to Ask' on Amazon Prime 'I Got to Ask' on Amazon Prime .

. . Check to see where you can watch it Check to see where you can watch it Check to see where you can watch it . And that is . And that is also related to 'Diary of a CEO,' which I am reading right now also related to 'Diary of a CEO,' which I am reading right now . Akuff recommended it to me; I . Akuff recommended it to me; I started reading it a few years ago after John recommended it, and I started reading it a few years ago after John recommended it, and I really really really can't put it down. I think John is the best can't put it down. I think John is the best can't put it down. I think John is the best interviewer. I interviewer. I know his faith journey well, too. And John know his faith journey well, too. And John Lennox appears Lennox appears Lennox appears on the show; he has been on it and will be in the on the show; he has been on it and will be in the on the show; he has been on it and will be in the future. future. future. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I'll tell you a story about someone in their 80s who writes it themselves And I'll tell you a story about someone in their 80s who writes it themselves . It was a story about God . It was a story about God . And at . And at . And at the end, we invited Wes Huff the end, we invited Wes Huff the end, we invited Wes Huff , and his story was really , and his story was really , and his story was really good. He said, 'With what you have...'" I good. He said, 'With what you have...'" I good. He said, 'With what you have...'" I want to. want to. want to. There is something about you. "He There is something about you. "He There is something about you. "He said that. I do said that. I do n't remember the other adjectives he used, but I could tell he was someone who grew up in a Christian family but n't remember the other adjectives he used, but I could tell he was someone who grew up in a Christian family but left to become an atheist left to become an atheist . Yes, his parents were . Yes, his parents were from Nigeria and were from Nigeria and were deeply religious, and he had some rebellious feelings about that deeply religious, and he had some rebellious feelings about that . But in his early 30s, he . But in his early 30s, he realized something was missing in his life. And if realized something was missing in his life. And if Christians aren't coming out into the world Christians aren't coming out into the world Christians aren't coming out into the world , this podcast , this podcast covers various topics in that context. Even someone covers various topics in that context. Even someone like Scott Galloway, who does like Scott Galloway, who does like Scott Galloway, who does n't do many Christian podcasts, n't do many Christian podcasts, n't do many Christian podcasts, appeared this time appeared this time appeared this time . We had a really . We had a really . We had a really good conversation, and I'd good conversation, and I'd good conversation, and I'd like to invite him again next time. Adam like to invite him again next time. Adam like to invite him again next time. Adam Grant and Simon Sinek have also appeared Grant and Simon Sinek have also appeared Grant and Simon Sinek have also appeared . I . I . I really love this kind of exchange. Seth has appeared too really love this kind of exchange. Seth has appeared too .

. And as you know, he is a And as you know, he is a And as you know, he is a very famous... atheist, very famous... atheist, very famous... atheist, yet we have a good conversation yet we have a good conversation yet we have a good conversation . But if we . But if we ... ... ... He likes Christians He likes Christians . That's really . That's really . That's really cool. I like him too. I cool. I like him too. I love that he does that kind of work. love that he does that kind of work. Yes, yes, yes. Will, it feels like you're Yes, yes, yes. Will, it feels like you're Yes, yes, yes. Will, it feels like you're surrounded by the Mafia surrounded by the Mafia surrounded by the Mafia . Watch out. . Watch out. . Watch out. Stephen Bartlett's journey Stephen Bartlett's journey Stephen Bartlett's journey from afar It's really from afar It's really from afar It's really fun just watching him. I fun just watching him. I fun just watching him. I don't know him at all. don't know him at all. don't know him at all. No, no, I want to get to know him No, no, I want to get to know him No, no, I want to get to know him . . . He is opening up his private life He is opening up his private life wide to everyone. wide to everyone. wide to everyone. Now, I want to explore. I'm going to Now, I want to explore. I'm going to Now, I want to explore. I'm going to invite two more Christians to invite two more Christians to invite two more Christians to explore this together. Judging by what he explore this together. Judging by what he says, what if says, what if says, what if he fell in love with Bob Goff he fell in love with Bob Goff he fell in love with Bob Goff ? Yeah, I’d ? Yeah, I’d ? Yeah, I’d have to pray that happens. Please let Bob have to pray that happens. Please let Bob have to pray that happens. Please let Bob Goff and Stephen Bartlett Goff and Stephen Bartlett appear on 'The CEO's Diary appear on 'The CEO's Diary appear on 'The CEO's Diary .' He’d definitely love it. .' He’d definitely love it. .' He’d definitely love it. And Seth Godin was on it, too, you know And Seth Godin was on it, too, you know And Seth Godin was on it, too, you know . Did you hear about it? . Did you hear about it? . Did you hear about it? Yeah, I saw it. I saw it," you’re joking, right Yeah, I saw it. I saw it," you’re joking, right Yeah, I saw it. I saw it," you’re joking, right ? "I wanted to. Seth ? "I wanted to. Seth ? "I wanted to. Seth contacted his team and asked, 'Can I appear on my show contacted his team and asked, 'Can I appear on my show contacted his team and asked, 'Can I appear on my show again?'" "I again?'" "I again?'" "I asked. I said, 'Of course.'" "That's what he asked. I said, 'Of course.'" "That's what he said. And the very next said. And the very next said. And the very next day," Seth, you did day," Seth, you did day," Seth, you did n't mention that you just appeared on 'CEO Diary' n't mention that you just appeared on 'CEO Diary' n't mention that you just appeared on 'CEO Diary' . "He said." That's . "He said." That's . "He said." That's good. "Well, it is a really wonderful thing good. "Well, it is a really wonderful thing good. "Well, it is a really wonderful thing . And as you know, . And as you know, . And as you know, we are living in an increasingly tribalistic we are living in an increasingly tribalistic we are living in an increasingly tribalistic world. Even world. Even world. Even within the church, I think there is a temptation in those moments to within the church, I think there is a temptation in those moments to within the church, I think there is a temptation in those moments to band together and band together and band together and attack cults attack cults attack cults . But . But . But Jesus Jesus Jesus came because God so loved the world came because God so loved the world came because God so loved the world . We don't need to love everything in the world, but I . We don't need to love everything in the world, but I think we are called to love the people God created. And I—

think we are called to love the people God created. And I— and I do and I do and I do n't know about you—but I think we get n't know about you—but I think we get tremendous energy when we are with people who are walking a different journey. Yes. I think the church needs more people like that. We don't need to speak to the tribe members just to get applause for what we say. If we don't need to speak to the tribe members just to get applause for what we say. If we gather with the tribe members, gather with the tribe members, gather with the tribe members, I can make two promises: you will I can make two promises: you will I can make two promises: you will make more money make more money make more money , and you will receive more applause , and you will receive more applause , and you will receive more applause . It is 100% true . It is 100% true . It is 100% true . . . And the more radical things become And the more radical things become And the more radical things become , the more people ask me if I , the more people ask me if I know exactly how to double the audience overnight. know exactly how to double the audience overnight. I do too. But I have I do too. But I have I do too. But I have no intention of doing that. no intention of doing that. no intention of doing that. You could bring me down, and I..." It You could bring me down, and I..." It can break you down. Annie, you can say, "Why Carrie Newhope is a fraud," and can say, "Why Carrie Newhope is a fraud," and I can say, "Why Annie F. Downs is I can say, "Why Annie F. Downs is I can say, "Why Annie F. Downs is n't living the life she promised n't living the life she promised n't living the life she promised ." Then I'll ." Then I'll ." Then I'll get a million clicks, get a million clicks, get a million clicks, right? And then right? And then right? And then I do I do I do n't know what to do. I don't know what to do with my soul n't know what to do. I don't know what to do with my soul . It feels like I just sold it. You . It feels like I just sold it. You sold it, didn't you? sold it, didn't you? sold it, didn't you? That's right. I think you and I That's right. I think you and I That's right. I think you and I were made similar in this respect were made similar in this respect were made similar in this respect . And there are many . And there are many . And there are many of my pastor friends who think this way too of my pastor friends who think this way too . Of course, you may not . Of course, you may not agree with Jesus saying to love your neighbor, but seeing agree with Jesus saying to love your neighbor, but seeing God change someone up God change someone up close is a close is a close is a truly great gift. The truly great gift. The same goes for seeing Him at work. Just because your neighbor isn't in the same situation as you, you don't have to miss seeing God change them. Carrie, if we don't have to miss seeing God change them. Carrie, if we talk about this too much, it might put talk about this too much, it might put talk about this too much, it might put us both in a difficult position

us both in a difficult position us both in a difficult position . Yes, . Yes, . Yes, I know. And as you I know. And as you I know. And as you know, I am grateful for what you do and for giving a know, I am grateful for what you do and for giving a know, I am grateful for what you do and for giving a positive voice to the world positive voice to the world . You must have also experienced having a friend taken away from you. . You must have also experienced having a friend taken away from you. That is it. You must have experienced things like thieves That is it. You must have experienced things like thieves That is it. You must have experienced things like thieves coming and stealing, killing, and destroying coming and stealing, killing, and destroying coming and stealing, killing, and destroying . . . But look at the smile on your face But look at the smile on your face But look at the smile on your face . Right? . Right? . Right? And do you know what? I'm so And do you know what? I'm so glad I almost didn't ask the TV question glad I almost didn't ask the TV question glad I almost didn't ask the TV question . I'm . I'm really glad you think so too. Actually, I was going to go back and really glad you think so too. Actually, I was going to go back and talk about it talk about it talk about it . I thought about crossing my fingers and saying, "Let me tell you my . I thought about crossing my fingers and saying, "Let me tell you my . I thought about crossing my fingers and saying, "Let me tell you my answer," but answer," but no, no, I was no, no, I was n't 100% sure it was on Amazon Prime. n't 100% sure it was on Amazon Prime. n't 100% sure it was on Amazon Prime. Um, and I think there should be Christians in that big market Um, and I think there should be Christians in that big market . We need to show ourselves as we are . I'm not going to Mexico to . I'm not going to Mexico to show myself drunk and being filmed show myself drunk and being filmed show myself drunk and being filmed . . . That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. I will I will I will never show myself doing that. I promise never show myself doing that. I promise never show myself doing that. I promise . . . Um, but showing Um, but showing Um, but showing our true hope and faith in Christ our true hope and faith in Christ our true hope and faith in Christ , , , for the sake of the world He died for, I for the sake of the world He died for, I for the sake of the world He died for, I welcome it anytime. That's right. That's right welcome it anytime. That's right. That's right welcome it anytime. That's right. That's right . Um, I . Um, I . Um, I think it's time to wrap up now, but may I think it's time to wrap up now, but may I give one more example related to what you are curious about give one more example related to what you are curious about ? My fiancé, JW, ? My fiancé, JW, ? My fiancé, JW, the moment he heard this, my husband He's someone who's going to make it the moment he heard this, my husband He's someone who's going to make it the moment he heard this, my husband He's someone who's going to make it , and he really loves perfume.

, and he really loves perfume. , and he really loves perfume. Really loves it? Good heavens Really loves it? Good heavens Really loves it? Good heavens . I'll send you a picture today . I'll send you a picture today . I'll send you a picture today . I . I . I moved most of his things to my house, and the moved most of his things to my house, and the moved most of his things to my house, and the perfumes are really interesting. It's a perfumes are really interesting. It's a perfumes are really interesting. It's a really cool hobby. Sometimes really cool hobby. Sometimes really cool hobby. Sometimes he goes to Nordstrom and asks, "Shall I he goes to Nordstrom and asks, "Shall I he goes to Nordstrom and asks, "Shall I smell some?" smell some?" smell some?" There are times when they say that. Then I say, " There are times when they say that. Then I say, " There are times when they say that. Then I say, " Of course!" "That's what they say. Gary, as Of course!" "That's what they say. Gary, as Of course!" "That's what they say. Gary, as you know, you know, you know, about 30 minutes after spraying perfume is about 30 minutes after spraying perfume is about 30 minutes after spraying perfume is called 'dry down.' called 'dry down.' That is the perfume's true scent That is the perfume's true scent . When you smell it right away, it just . When you smell it right away, it just . When you smell it right away, it just smells, but you have to wait about 30 minutes for the smells, but you have to wait about 30 minutes for the smells, but you have to wait about 30 minutes for the real scent to come out real scent to come out . We usually walk around a shopping mall for about 30 minutes . We usually walk around a shopping mall for about 30 minutes . We usually walk around a shopping mall for about 30 minutes . Then we . Then we . Then we can know the real scent. The important can know the real scent. The important can know the real scent. The important thing is not that the name of the perfume changes, but that the thing is not that the name of the perfume changes, but that the thing is not that the name of the perfume changes, but that the scent is scent is scent is perceived differently by each person. perceived differently by each person. perceived differently by each person. I knew that, too. I knew that if I I knew that, too. I knew that if I I knew that, too. I knew that if I spray perfume, Tony sprays it, and spray perfume, Tony sprays it, and spray perfume, Tony sprays it, and you spray it, a different scent would emanate from each of us you spray it, a different scent would emanate from each of us . Did n't the Bible say that we are the fragrance of Christ? Yes , , , we all have different scents we all have different scents we all have different scents . But that scent . But that scent doesn't change a person's essence.

doesn't change a person's essence. doesn't change a person's essence. So, you might not have the same scent as your believing neighbors, or the So, you might not have the same scent as your believing neighbors, or the same scent as the other churches across the street same scent as the other churches across the street . But if you are a follower of Jesus, you . But if you are a follower of Jesus, you have the fragrance of Jesus. Carrie, have the fragrance of Jesus. Carrie, wherever you go, you are wherever you go, you are radiating the fragrance of Christ radiating the fragrance of Christ radiating the fragrance of Christ . As you just said . As you just said . As you just said , wherever we go, , wherever we go, , wherever we go, we need people I do. we need people I do. we need people I do. People are needed in the market People are needed in the market People are needed in the market , and people talking to the person at the next table at Starbucks are , and people talking to the person at the next table at Starbucks are needed, and riding the New York needed, and riding the New York subway and asking, "Lord, why did you subway and asking, "Lord, why did you put me on this subway?" put me on this subway?" There are times when you might think, "..." right? There are times when you might think, "..." right? There are times when you might think, "..." right? What should you do then? As you know What should you do then? As you know What should you do then? As you know , we are the fragrance of Christ , we are the fragrance of Christ , we are the fragrance of Christ . It is okay if you do not smell exactly like your neighbor . It is okay if you do not smell exactly like your neighbor . You are radiating the same fragrance as Him . You are radiating the same fragrance as Him , and we , and we , and we need you. This is because you are the only one who radiates the need you. This is because you are the only one who radiates the same fragrance as Him same fragrance as Him . That is why you . That is why you cannot stop people cannot stop people cannot stop people . I . I . I want people to read books, but actually, want people to read books, but actually, I want them to read only the covers. Do I want them to read only the covers. Do not hesitate just by looking at the cover. not hesitate just by looking at the cover. not hesitate just by looking at the cover. You are the fragrance of Christ You are the fragrance of Christ You are the fragrance of Christ . Go. Go and . Go. Go and . Go. Go and become the fragrance of Christ. That is a become the fragrance of Christ. That is a really good really good message. And I message. And I message. And I like people's small individualities like people's small individualities like people's small individualities . For example, . For example, who would have known I have a bottle of perfume?

who would have known I have a bottle of perfume? I bought it during the COVID era, and there are still about three-quarters I bought it during the COVID era, and there are still about three-quarters I bought it during the COVID era, and there are still about three-quarters left, and I think I use it every day left, and I think I use it every day left, and I think I use it every day . . . Hmm... I do Hmm... I do Hmm... I do n't know how to explain it. It seems to be a fragrance that lasts a lifetime. People n't know how to explain it. It seems to be a fragrance that lasts a lifetime. People often talk about perfume when discussing splitting the budget for a wedding often talk about perfume when discussing splitting the budget for a wedding . You have to enjoy life, . You have to enjoy life, . You have to enjoy life, brother. I brother. I can help him spend less than $100 on perfume over 10 years. Would that help? Now , , , look. Tom Ford perfume. Yes. look. Tom Ford perfume. Yes. look. Tom Ford perfume. Yes. The scent is really nice right now. I also The scent is really nice right now. I also The scent is really nice right now. I also put on Tom Ford perfume today put on Tom Ford perfume today put on Tom Ford perfume today . Really? Look, we might be . Really? Look, we might be . Really? Look, we might be wearing the same perfume wearing the same perfume wearing the same perfume . Right? . Right? . Right? So, um, So, um, So, um, don't hesitate over things like that. don't hesitate over things like that. don't hesitate over things like that. I think it's been about a week since it was released. You're I think it's been about a week since it was released. You're I think it's been about a week since it was released. You're married now, too. married now, too. married now, too. By the time this book is released, if you wanted to By the time this book is released, if you wanted to recommend a specific site to people, recommend a specific site to people, recommend a specific site to people, where would you direct them where would you direct them where would you direct them ? ? ? holdyouback.com. It holdyouback.com. It holdyouback.com. It has everything. has everything. has everything. Yes. That's easy. Yes. That's easy. Yes. That's easy. And anniefdowns.com is always And anniefdowns.com is always And anniefdowns.com is always available as well. You'll be able to available as well. You'll be able to available as well. You'll be able to get the information you want on both sites get the information you want on both sites get the information you want on both sites . But do . But do . But do n't hesitate over things like that. Do n't hesitate over things like that. Do n't hesitate over things like that. Do n't hesitate. Whether n't hesitate. Whether n't hesitate. Whether on the podcast or on the podcast or on the podcast or on Prime Video, on Prime Video, on Prime Video, let's meet wherever you are. let's meet wherever you are. let's meet wherever you are. Carrie, Carrie, Carrie, thank you for making it easy to find. I'm thank you for making it easy to find. I'm thank you for making it easy to find. I'm a little embarrassed that I found you so easily a little embarrassed that I found you so easily a little embarrassed that I found you so easily . . . Um, it was really nice meeting up and talking after such a long time Um, it was really nice meeting up and talking after such a long time . I . I learned a lot.

learned a lot. learned a lot. Thank you so much. Well then, I'll Thank you so much. Well then, I'll Thank you so much. Well then, I'll see you next time. It was really fun see you next time. It was really fun see you next time. It was really fun . Annie is the best. I hope . Annie is the best. I hope . Annie is the best. I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did. I you all enjoyed it as much as I did. I hope so. And hope so. And hope so. And as I mentioned in the middle of the interview as I mentioned in the middle of the interview , "I am here all alone." It's not a TV show , "I am here all alone." It's not a TV show , and I'm not hosting this , and I'm not hosting this , and I'm not hosting this podcast with Kali Bolinski or Toby Lyle, either podcast with Kali Bolinski or Toby Lyle, either . thank you. I . thank you. I acknowledge your existence acknowledge your existence . It's just that we aren't together in this place right now . It's just that we aren't together in this place right now . It's just that we aren't together in this place right now . Although I have to . Although I have to . Although I have to handle all the technical aspects myself handle all the technical aspects myself handle all the technical aspects myself , the production team , the production team , the production team does an excellent job and takes care to ensure that does an excellent job and takes care to ensure that does an excellent job and takes care to ensure that you can watch the broadcast you can watch the broadcast you can watch the broadcast . . . Sarah, who writes the show notes, the social Sarah, who writes the show notes, the social Sarah, who writes the show notes, the social media team, and I am surrounded by really cool people media team, and I am surrounded by really cool people . I would like to . I would like to express my gratitude to everyone express my gratitude to everyone express my gratitude to everyone . The next episode . The next episode features Seth Godin, Sean Burn Bird, my wife Tony Newhope, John Ortberg, and Ann Voscamp. It's going to be a really fun features Seth Godin, Sean Burn Bird, my wife Tony Newhope, John Ortberg, and Ann Voscamp. It's going to be a really fun episode. Jimmy episode. Jimmy episode. Jimmy Meadow, Chuck DeGrott, Malcolm Meadow, Chuck DeGrott, Malcolm Meadow, Chuck DeGrott, Malcolm Gladwell, and many others are Gladwell, and many others are Gladwell, and many others are scheduled to appear. You can view the show notes scheduled to appear. You can view the show notes at theartofleadershipacademy.com at theartofleadershipacademy.com at theartofleadershipacademy.com . Let . Let . Let 's do it together! I am with 23,000 other leaders 's do it together! I am with 23,000 other leaders . You . You can also check out the content posted in the broadcast notes and the conversations I share with you at the Academy can also check out the content posted in the broadcast notes and the conversations I share with you at the Academy . All the best . All the best . All the best content and ideas are content and ideas are content and ideas are at the Academy.

at the Academy. at the Academy. Thank you again for listening Thank you again for listening Thank you again for listening . If this conversation . If this conversation . If this conversation was helpful, please was helpful, please leave a review or comment on the platform you are listening to leave a review or comment on the platform you are listening to leave a review or comment on the platform you are listening to . If you think a friend or team member might . If you think a friend or team member might like this broadcast or a part of it, please share the link to the audio like this broadcast or a part of it, please share the link to the audio clip, YouTube, or podcast clip, YouTube, or podcast . Thank you very much. I look forward to . Thank you very much. I look forward to seeing you next time. I hope the seeing you next time. I hope the seeing you next time. I hope the time we spent together today helped you time we spent together today helped you time we spent together today helped you identify and overcome the growth barriers you are facing identify and overcome the growth barriers you are facing