Can Christians Trust ChatGPT? Bobby Gruenewald on YouVersion’s Rise to 1 Billion Installs!

I told them that I was a child and that I told them that I was a child and that I was I was I was um interested in having sex with my um interested in having sex with my um interested in having sex with my partner. Was this a Christian chatbot? partner. Was this a Christian chatbot? partner. Was this a Christian chatbot? >> Christian, yeah, Christian. Yeah. >> Christian, yeah, Christian. Yeah. >> Christian, yeah, Christian. Yeah. >> Okay. And so, I think it was one or two >> Okay. And so, I think it was one or two >> Okay. And so, I think it was one or two prompts in, it gave me specific prompts in, it gave me specific prompts in, it gave me specific instructions instructions instructions with details around foreplay and other with details around foreplay and other with details around foreplay and other things. And then it included a verse things. And then it included a verse things. And then it included a verse from Paul. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof from Paul. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof from Paul. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. So, can Christians Leadership Podcast. So, can Christians Leadership Podcast. So, can Christians trust ChatGPT? trust ChatGPT? trust ChatGPT? Maybe not. Bobby Gruenewald talks about Maybe not. Bobby Gruenewald talks about Maybe not. Bobby Gruenewald talks about that. He is the founder and CEO of that. He is the founder and CEO of that. He is the founder and CEO of YouVersion, and we talk about scripture YouVersion, and we talk about scripture YouVersion, and we talk about scripture and YouVersion's rise to 1 billion and YouVersion's rise to 1 billion and YouVersion's rise to 1 billion installs. Incredible. Hey, wherever installs. Incredible. Hey, wherever installs. Incredible. Hey, wherever you're watching, be sure to subscribe, you're watching, be sure to subscribe, you're watching, be sure to subscribe, follow, and leave a comment to join the follow, and leave a comment to join the follow, and leave a comment to join the conversation. And now my conversation conversation. And now my conversation conversation. And now my conversation with Bobby Gruenewald. Bobby, it's great with Bobby Gruenewald. Bobby, it's great with Bobby Gruenewald. Bobby, it's great to be marking a very historic moment to be marking a very historic moment to be marking a very historic moment with you on the podcast. This is This is with you on the podcast. This is This is with you on the podcast. This is This is a huge deal. So, I'm sure a lot of a huge deal. So, I'm sure a lot of a huge deal. So, I'm sure a lot of listeners have heard about it, but go listeners have heard about it, but go listeners have heard about it, but go ahead and spill the beans. Like, what's ahead and spill the beans. Like, what's ahead and spill the beans. Like, what's happening this fall, this November? happening this fall, this November? happening this fall, this November? >> Yeah, well, this this November we're >> Yeah, well, this this November we're >> Yeah, well, this this November we're reaching a milestone at YouVersion of 1 reaching a milestone at YouVersion of 1 reaching a milestone at YouVersion of 1 billion devices that have installed the billion devices that have installed the billion devices that have installed the Bible app, Bible app for kids, Bible app Bible app, Bible app for kids, Bible app Bible app, Bible app for kids, Bible app light, and um light, and um light, and um I never I mean, I never thought we'd be I never I mean, I never thought we'd be I never I mean, I never thought we'd be a part of something that would have that a part of something that would have that a part of something that would have that kind of reach that we've been able to to kind of reach that we've been able to to kind of reach that we've been able to to see. But, I actually think this is a big see. But, I actually think this is a big see. But, I actually think this is a big moment for the Bible. Um not not just moment for the Bible. Um not not just moment for the Bible. Um not not just for YouVersion because I think we're one for YouVersion because I think we're one for YouVersion because I think we're one point of global evidence right now that point of global evidence right now that point of global evidence right now that God's word is alive and thriving and God's word is alive and thriving and God's word is alive and thriving and growing, and that there's real hunger growing, and that there's real hunger growing, and that there's real hunger for it globally. So, so we really feel

for it globally. So, so we really feel for it globally. So, so we really feel like this is a milestone worth like this is a milestone worth like this is a milestone worth celebrating just to draw attention to it celebrating just to draw attention to it celebrating just to draw attention to it in the space outside of the church um of in the space outside of the church um of in the space outside of the church um of people saying, "Wow, I had no idea so people saying, "Wow, I had no idea so people saying, "Wow, I had no idea so many people are interested in the many people are interested in the many people are interested in the Bible." But, we've we've obviously got a Bible." But, we've we've obviously got a Bible." But, we've we've obviously got a billion reasons um to to say they are. billion reasons um to to say they are. billion reasons um to to say they are. And it's uh it's exciting. And it's been And it's uh it's exciting. And it's been And it's uh it's exciting. And it's been accelerating, too, which is the other accelerating, too, which is the other accelerating, too, which is the other part of the story I think that's that's part of the story I think that's that's part of the story I think that's that's also exciting. It's not just we finally also exciting. It's not just we finally also exciting. It's not just we finally got here. It's like it's really taken got here. It's like it's really taken got here. It's like it's really taken off and got here sooner than we off and got here sooner than we off and got here sooner than we anticipated. You know, I hadn't put two anticipated. You know, I hadn't put two anticipated. You know, I hadn't put two and two together, but I think it was and two together, but I think it was and two together, but I think it was like a year or two ago, wasn't it half a like a year or two ago, wasn't it half a like a year or two ago, wasn't it half a billion or something like that? Like It billion or something like that? Like It billion or something like that? Like It was a little more than a year or two was a little more than a year or two was a little more than a year or two ago, but it was it was in 2021 ago, but it was it was in 2021 ago, but it was it was in 2021 when we crossed that milestone, so about when we crossed that milestone, so about when we crossed that milestone, so about 4 years ago. And 4 years ago. And 4 years ago. And >> Yeah, but that took you what? Like uh 11 >> Yeah, but that took you what? Like uh 11 >> Yeah, but that took you what? Like uh 11 years to get there? years to get there? years to get there? >> years, 12 or 13 I think at the time is >> years, 12 or 13 I think at the time is >> years, 12 or 13 I think at the time is what it would have been. what it would have been. what it would have been. >> 13 years, and then in four you doubled. >> 13 years, and then in four you doubled. >> 13 years, and then in four you doubled. Yes. And and honestly, at that point in Yes. And and honestly, at that point in Yes. And and honestly, at that point in time, the time, the time, the the rate of growth was was much slower. the rate of growth was was much slower. the rate of growth was was much slower. So, we I remember sitting at the dinner So, we I remember sitting at the dinner So, we I remember sitting at the dinner we had hosted celebrating half a billion we had hosted celebrating half a billion we had hosted celebrating half a billion uh the 500 million mark, and at that uh the 500 million mark, and at that uh the 500 million mark, and at that dinner, I remember had this kind of dinner, I remember had this kind of dinner, I remember had this kind of sinking feeling cuz it was like, yeah, sinking feeling cuz it was like, yeah, sinking feeling cuz it was like, yeah, the number looks big, but if you looked the number looks big, but if you looked the number looks big, but if you looked at kind of the trajectory at kind of the trajectory at kind of the trajectory I mean, it was it was pretty slow growth I mean, it was it was pretty slow growth I mean, it was it was pretty slow growth at the time. It it had had much faster at the time. It it had had much faster at the time. It it had had much faster growth in the past. And that became a growth in the past. And that became a growth in the past. And that became a real inflection point for me in terms of real inflection point for me in terms of real inflection point for me in terms of just my leadership and what needed to just my leadership and what needed to just my leadership and what needed to change and, you know, how what we needed

change and, you know, how what we needed change and, you know, how what we needed to do differently. And so, we set on a to do differently. And so, we set on a to do differently. And so, we set on a course in 2022 to do things quite course in 2022 to do things quite course in 2022 to do things quite differently. And what we're seeing today differently. And what we're seeing today differently. And what we're seeing today is I think both a product of that as is I think both a product of that as is I think both a product of that as well as a product of just global well as a product of just global well as a product of just global momentum that's happening right now momentum that's happening right now momentum that's happening right now that's really accelerated it. Yeah, cuz that's really accelerated it. Yeah, cuz that's really accelerated it. Yeah, cuz I think most people who listen to this I think most people who listen to this I think most people who listen to this podcast are aware that physical Bible podcast are aware that physical Bible podcast are aware that physical Bible sales are up in the US and the UK, sales are up in the US and the UK, sales are up in the US and the UK, around the world. There seems to be this around the world. There seems to be this around the world. There seems to be this hunger. We've done a series on revival hunger. We've done a series on revival hunger. We've done a series on revival on this podcast earlier this year. And on this podcast earlier this year. And on this podcast earlier this year. And like, the numbers honestly, for the like, the numbers honestly, for the like, the numbers honestly, for the first time in our lifetime, other than first time in our lifetime, other than first time in our lifetime, other than idiosyncratic churches like Life.Church, idiosyncratic churches like Life.Church, idiosyncratic churches like Life.Church, are seeing a huge uptick. Like, there's are seeing a huge uptick. Like, there's are seeing a huge uptick. Like, there's a general the tide is rising for a general the tide is rising for a general the tide is rising for Christianity, which I think we all Christianity, which I think we all Christianity, which I think we all celebrate. And it's like not some celebrate. And it's like not some celebrate. And it's like not some feeling we have. It's actually there's feeling we have. It's actually there's feeling we have. It's actually there's data behind it, right? data behind it, right? data behind it, right? >> Yeah, no, it's and and and like said, >> Yeah, no, it's and and and like said, >> Yeah, no, it's and and and like said, all over the globe. So, it's not just all over the globe. So, it's not just all over the globe. So, it's not just like isolated to a country or a city or like isolated to a country or a city or like isolated to a country or a city or some, you know, really specific some, you know, really specific some, you know, really specific location. There's a generational location. There's a generational location. There's a generational momentum that seems to be happening um momentum that seems to be happening um momentum that seems to be happening um globally. And And the Bible's a key part globally. And And the Bible's a key part globally. And And the Bible's a key part of it, and we're super excited um to be of it, and we're super excited um to be of it, and we're super excited um to be able to serve in the way that we serve able to serve in the way that we serve able to serve in the way that we serve right now um to to to be a part of that.

right now um to to to be a part of that. right now um to to to be a part of that. Um but yeah, there's there's a lot of I Um but yeah, there's there's a lot of I Um but yeah, there's there's a lot of I mean, it's a fun time. It's And it's an mean, it's a fun time. It's And it's an mean, it's a fun time. It's And it's an encouraging time for people that maybe encouraging time for people that maybe encouraging time for people that maybe have been discouraged for quite some have been discouraged for quite some have been discouraged for quite some time um that that we're on this type of time um that that we're on this type of time um that that we're on this type of trend line. trend line. trend line. Yeah, so I want to focus in on on the Yeah, so I want to focus in on on the Yeah, so I want to focus in on on the second part, or really it was the first second part, or really it was the first second part, or really it was the first part of what you said. You saw momentum part of what you said. You saw momentum part of what you said. You saw momentum kind of leveling off, and so you made kind of leveling off, and so you made kind of leveling off, and so you made some strategic changes. I think it was some strategic changes. I think it was some strategic changes. I think it was around that time, maybe 2022, that you around that time, maybe 2022, that you around that time, maybe 2022, that you if if I remember correctly, you said, if if I remember correctly, you said, if if I remember correctly, you said, "All right, I'm going to become the CEO. "All right, I'm going to become the CEO. "All right, I'm going to become the CEO. Like, I'm going to really like this is Like, I'm going to really like this is Like, I'm going to really like this is going to be my full-time focus." Um was going to be my full-time focus." Um was going to be my full-time focus." Um was that around that time? And then what that around that time? And then what that around that time? And then what what were some of the changes that you what were some of the changes that you what were some of the changes that you made, Bobby? So, right at that time, um fall of 2021, So, right at that time, um fall of 2021, um um um I had it wasn't didn't start at that I had it wasn't didn't start at that I had it wasn't didn't start at that time, but it had kind of been building time, but it had kind of been building time, but it had kind of been building up to that moment where I had up to that moment where I had up to that moment where I had kind of consistently felt like we were kind of consistently felt like we were kind of consistently felt like we were slowing down, and I was wondering what slowing down, and I was wondering what slowing down, and I was wondering what my um my um my um what my responsibility was in that, you what my responsibility was in that, you what my responsibility was in that, you know, is this something Is this know, is this something Is this know, is this something Is this something that's kind of been a story?

something that's kind of been a story? something that's kind of been a story? It's an amazing story. It's 13 years in. It's an amazing story. It's 13 years in. It's an amazing story. It's 13 years in. Is this one of those things that kind of Is this one of those things that kind of Is this one of those things that kind of ran its course? ran its course? ran its course? >> just had its run, right? Like, what a >> just had its run, right? Like, what a >> just had its run, right? Like, what a great moment. Thank you, God. great moment. Thank you, God. great moment. Thank you, God. >> I had some people that were implying >> I had some people that were implying >> I had some people that were implying that we used the word saturation, you that we used the word saturation, you that we used the word saturation, you know, at some point, which is just made know, at some point, which is just made know, at some point, which is just made like I couldn't even fathom the concept like I couldn't even fathom the concept like I couldn't even fathom the concept of saturation point because that's so of saturation point because that's so of saturation point because that's so ridiculous to think that everyone that ridiculous to think that everyone that ridiculous to think that everyone that needs the Bible can read the Bible or needs the Bible can read the Bible or needs the Bible can read the Bible or has a smartphone, you know, is has been has a smartphone, you know, is has been has a smartphone, you know, is has been reached. Um so, obviously it wasn't reached. Um so, obviously it wasn't reached. Um so, obviously it wasn't that. Um but I felt a responsibility to that. Um but I felt a responsibility to that. Um but I felt a responsibility to it cuz I felt like, look, we're it cuz I felt like, look, we're it cuz I felt like, look, we're stewarding this, and if if I'm not going stewarding this, and if if I'm not going stewarding this, and if if I'm not going to do a better job with it, we need to to do a better job with it, we need to to do a better job with it, we need to figure out somebody else that can figure out somebody else that can figure out somebody else that can steward it because I just don't want to steward it because I just don't want to steward it because I just don't want to be a part of something that we're not be a part of something that we're not be a part of something that we're not stewarding well. So, I began to process stewarding well. So, I began to process stewarding well. So, I began to process like what would proper stewardship of like what would proper stewardship of like what would proper stewardship of this be, and where are we not stewarding this be, and where are we not stewarding this be, and where are we not stewarding it well? And I started to look at it it well? And I started to look at it it well? And I started to look at it from different vantage points. And I'm a from different vantage points. And I'm a from different vantage points. And I'm a former business guy, or I'm a business former business guy, or I'm a business former business guy, or I'm a business guy in terms of my heart, my vocabulary, guy in terms of my heart, my vocabulary, guy in terms of my heart, my vocabulary, and how I talk a lot of times. And so, and how I talk a lot of times. And so, and how I talk a lot of times. And so, um so, I first started to look at it and um so, I first started to look at it and um so, I first started to look at it and said, "Okay, if this was a for-profit said, "Okay, if this was a for-profit said, "Okay, if this was a for-profit business business business that we were trying to grow, one, what that we were trying to grow, one, what that we were trying to grow, one, what would it be worth? You know, because in would it be worth? You know, because in would it be worth? You know, because in terms of terms of terms of cuz I was trying to gauge like is our cuz I was trying to gauge like is our cuz I was trying to gauge like is our investment worthy of the asset, you investment worthy of the asset, you investment worthy of the asset, you know, the thing that we're kind of know, the thing that we're kind of know, the thing that we're kind of stewarding? And I had some venture stewarding? And I had some venture stewarding? And I had some venture capital friends of mine that called and capital friends of mine that called and capital friends of mine that called and just said, "Hey, can you give me kind of just said, "Hey, can you give me kind of just said, "Hey, can you give me kind of a rough idea of what you think a rough idea of what you think a rough idea of what you think YouVersion would be worth if it was YouVersion would be worth if it was YouVersion would be worth if it was for-profit or if it was Cuz it's a quote for-profit or if it was Cuz it's a quote for-profit or if it was Cuz it's a quote free product to all the users, right?

free product to all the users, right? free product to all the users, right? >> Yeah, it's a total it's it's it's donor >> Yeah, it's a total it's it's it's donor >> Yeah, it's a total it's it's it's donor supported. Um we don't sell anything supported. Um we don't sell anything supported. Um we don't sell anything else and or sell anything. Um we just else and or sell anything. Um we just else and or sell anything. Um we just are supported through donations. Um so, are supported through donations. Um so, are supported through donations. Um so, they went through a bit of an analysis they went through a bit of an analysis they went through a bit of an analysis and and just said, "You know, it would and and just said, "You know, it would and and just said, "You know, it would be several billion dollars if this was a be several billion dollars if this was a be several billion dollars if this was a for-profit." Would be the valuation, you for-profit." Would be the valuation, you for-profit." Would be the valuation, you know, of of the company just based on know, of of the company just based on know, of of the company just based on metrics and size and scale and all those metrics and size and scale and all those metrics and size and scale and all those things. things. things. Um so, then I was just evaluating what Um so, then I was just evaluating what Um so, then I was just evaluating what we were investing in it at the time. And we were investing in it at the time. And we were investing in it at the time. And if you looked at it in proportion to if you looked at it in proportion to if you looked at it in proportion to that, it was anemic. Like, we were not that, it was anemic. Like, we were not that, it was anemic. Like, we were not really investing a re- resource-wise at really investing a re- resource-wise at really investing a re- resource-wise at a level that would maximize the a level that would maximize the a level that would maximize the potential of something like that. If it potential of something like that. If it potential of something like that. If it If you were looking at it saying this If you were looking at it saying this If you were looking at it saying this was just a business, you know, you would was just a business, you know, you would was just a business, you know, you would say, "Okay, one of your problems is say, "Okay, one of your problems is say, "Okay, one of your problems is you're just not even resourcing it you're just not even resourcing it you're just not even resourcing it properly. You don't have enough capital, properly. You don't have enough capital, properly. You don't have enough capital, you know, to kind of uh invest and you know, to kind of uh invest and you know, to kind of uh invest and grow." So, that was just one angle. Um grow." So, that was just one angle. Um grow." So, that was just one angle. Um the other was I I felt like from the the other was I I felt like from the the other was I I felt like from the perspective of my focus and my time, perspective of my focus and my time, perspective of my focus and my time, um that I had a portfolio of things I um that I had a portfolio of things I um that I had a portfolio of things I was responsible for, you know, at the was responsible for, you know, at the was responsible for, you know, at the church that extended deep into the church that extended deep into the church that extended deep into the functions of the church as well as functions of the church as well as functions of the church as well as YouVersion. So, I had kind of YouVersion YouVersion. So, I had kind of YouVersion YouVersion. So, I had kind of YouVersion as one of many things that I was as one of many things that I was as one of many things that I was overseeing.

overseeing. overseeing. Um and I felt like the leader of it Um and I felt like the leader of it Um and I felt like the leader of it needed have focus and full focus, you needed have focus and full focus, you needed have focus and full focus, you know, to be able to know, to be able to know, to be able to >> Right, you're not running a multi, you >> Right, you're not running a multi, you >> Right, you're not running a multi, you know, pardon the analogy, know, pardon the analogy, know, pardon the analogy, multi-billion-dollar corporation with multi-billion-dollar corporation with multi-billion-dollar corporation with 20% of your time as a general rule, 20% of your time as a general rule, 20% of your time as a general rule, right? right? right? >> Right, exactly. Now, my initial >> Right, exactly. Now, my initial >> Right, exactly. Now, my initial inclination, candidly, was that I needed inclination, candidly, was that I needed inclination, candidly, was that I needed to hire a CEO. to hire a CEO. to hire a CEO. Um not not be the CEO. Uh I obviously Um not not be the CEO. Uh I obviously Um not not be the CEO. Uh I obviously was involved in starting it, and I had was involved in starting it, and I had was involved in starting it, and I had vision for it, and a lot of the, you vision for it, and a lot of the, you vision for it, and a lot of the, you know, obviously the direction we've gone know, obviously the direction we've gone know, obviously the direction we've gone is all been part of something that I've is all been part of something that I've is all been part of something that I've I've contributed um to it. But, I kind I've contributed um to it. But, I kind I've contributed um to it. But, I kind of thought somebody would be better at of thought somebody would be better at of thought somebody would be better at this at scaling it from where it is to this at scaling it from where it is to this at scaling it from where it is to where it needs to go than I would be. where it needs to go than I would be. where it needs to go than I would be. After talking to mentors and sharing After talking to mentors and sharing After talking to mentors and sharing this with some of our key donors, um the this with some of our key donors, um the this with some of our key donors, um the feedback was pretty strong. They They're feedback was pretty strong. They They're feedback was pretty strong. They They're like, "Well, we'll pray about it, but we like, "Well, we'll pray about it, but we like, "Well, we'll pray about it, but we already know the answer." And I was already know the answer." And I was already know the answer." And I was like, "Well, what's the answer?" They like, "Well, what's the answer?" They like, "Well, what's the answer?" They said, "Well, you need to be the CEO." said, "Well, you need to be the CEO." said, "Well, you need to be the CEO." And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, I'm And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, I'm And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, I'm talking about like a real CEO, like talking about like a real CEO, like talking about like a real CEO, like somebody that really knows what they're somebody that really knows what they're somebody that really knows what they're doing." doing." doing." And uh so, I was a reluctant um CEO. And And uh so, I was a reluctant um CEO. And And uh so, I was a reluctant um CEO. And I did take on that title, but it was I did take on that title, but it was I did take on that title, but it was mostly because I needed to signify that mostly because I needed to signify that mostly because I needed to signify that something had changed, and that we had something had changed, and that we had something had changed, and that we had changed we we took a set of changed we we took a set of changed we we took a set of responsibilities I had at the church, responsibilities I had at the church, responsibilities I had at the church, and we found um some of the other and we found um some of the other and we found um some of the other leaders that would take those on so that leaders that would take those on so that leaders that would take those on so that I could bring focus to it. I still do I could bring focus to it. I still do I could bring focus to it. I still do have some church responsibilities, but have some church responsibilities, but have some church responsibilities, but honestly, I've got great leaders that honestly, I've got great leaders that honestly, I've got great leaders that lead those things, and and they're very lead those things, and and they're very lead those things, and and they're very um um um low time, you know, it takes a low

low time, you know, it takes a low low time, you know, it takes a low portion of my time to be able to oversee portion of my time to be able to oversee portion of my time to be able to oversee that. So, my full energy and focus is is that. So, my full energy and focus is is that. So, my full energy and focus is is spent in this new role. spent in this new role. spent in this new role. And I felt like we needed to to bring in And I felt like we needed to to bring in And I felt like we needed to to bring in some leaders that had seen things at a some leaders that had seen things at a some leaders that had seen things at a bigger scale, and that could help us go bigger scale, and that could help us go bigger scale, and that could help us go from where we were to where we needed to from where we were to where we needed to from where we were to where we needed to be. That was another change that I felt be. That was another change that I felt be. That was another change that I felt like was necessary at the time. Did you like was necessary at the time. Did you like was necessary at the time. Did you bring in a team around you? Yep, brought bring in a team around you? Yep, brought bring in a team around you? Yep, brought in a team around me, and um I wish I in a team around me, and um I wish I in a team around me, and um I wish I could say that we we put out the job could say that we we put out the job could say that we we put out the job postings, and the roles got filled right postings, and the roles got filled right postings, and the roles got filled right away. away. away. Uh it was a really tough year in 2022 Uh it was a really tough year in 2022 Uh it was a really tough year in 2022 cuz I think we we did two or three cuz I think we we did two or three cuz I think we we did two or three things happened at once. Like I moved things happened at once. Like I moved things happened at once. Like I moved into this role because I didn't have all into this role because I didn't have all into this role because I didn't have all those leaders, I ended up with a lot of those leaders, I ended up with a lot of those leaders, I ended up with a lot of direct reports that were not me direct reports that were not me direct reports that were not me functioning well at the right right functioning well at the right right functioning well at the right right level. level. level. Um but we didn't have much of a choice Um but we didn't have much of a choice Um but we didn't have much of a choice cuz we were kind of trying to shape the cuz we were kind of trying to shape the cuz we were kind of trying to shape the organization and I was doing what I was organization and I was doing what I was organization and I was doing what I was hoping I would have somebody step in to hoping I would have somebody step in to hoping I would have somebody step in to fill. Um then I now I was doing probably fill. Um then I now I was doing probably fill. Um then I now I was doing probably some of the wrong roles, wrong things. some of the wrong roles, wrong things. some of the wrong roles, wrong things. It I had great candidates for those It I had great candidates for those It I had great candidates for those roles, but in my discernment, I roles, but in my discernment, I roles, but in my discernment, I literally just felt like they they literally just felt like they they literally just felt like they they weren't the right person and I I went weren't the right person and I I went weren't the right person and I I went through interviews and had some really through interviews and had some really through interviews and had some really talented people that came from big tech talented people that came from big tech talented people that came from big tech companies that were willing to move to companies that were willing to move to companies that were willing to move to Oklahoma and be a part of it, but it Oklahoma and be a part of it, but it Oklahoma and be a part of it, but it just didn't seem right, which then I had just didn't seem right, which then I had just didn't seem right, which then I had more months of going through this this more months of going through this this more months of going through this this same cycle, you know, when I said no, it same cycle, you know, when I said no, it same cycle, you know, when I said no, it it just the thing extended on and on.

it just the thing extended on and on. it just the thing extended on and on. And our numbers weren't going up And our numbers weren't going up And our numbers weren't going up immediately and we were spending more immediately and we were spending more immediately and we were spending more money and we were having to raise more money and we were having to raise more money and we were having to raise more money. So these were all the dynamics money. So these were all the dynamics money. So these were all the dynamics that were happening. It was basically that were happening. It was basically that were happening. It was basically everything didn't look great the first everything didn't look great the first everything didn't look great the first year, year, year, but I knew it's the right direction. but I knew it's the right direction. but I knew it's the right direction. Um Um Um partly because of the opposition. Like I partly because of the opposition. Like I partly because of the opposition. Like I you can almost just feel the way that you can almost just feel the way that you can almost just feel the way that you step into it and immediately it had you step into it and immediately it had you step into it and immediately it had almost a confirming opposition if that almost a confirming opposition if that almost a confirming opposition if that makes sense. You know, like it was like makes sense. You know, like it was like makes sense. You know, like it was like I I know what this I've seen this I've I I know what this I've seen this I've I I know what this I've seen this I've had this feeling before. I've had this had this feeling before. I've had this had this feeling before. I've had this experience before and I know this is experience before and I know this is experience before and I know this is this is that predictable resistance, you this is that predictable resistance, you this is that predictable resistance, you know, that you get when you're kind of know, that you get when you're kind of know, that you get when you're kind of actually stepping in the right actually stepping in the right actually stepping in the right direction. direction. direction. Uh but it took a bit of persistence to Uh but it took a bit of persistence to Uh but it took a bit of persistence to kind of push through it and it was kind of push through it and it was kind of push through it and it was probably one of the hardest years on probably one of the hardest years on probably one of the hardest years on lots of levels, personal, um with our lots of levels, personal, um with our lots of levels, personal, um with our family and situations we had to go family and situations we had to go family and situations we had to go through as a family and just the um through as a family and just the um through as a family and just the um the asking people to trust me through the asking people to trust me through the asking people to trust me through the journey um where it was a lot of the journey um where it was a lot of the journey um where it was a lot of change and a lot of uh change and a lot of uh change and a lot of uh things not looking great right away, you things not looking great right away, you things not looking great right away, you know, on it. It really started to come know, on it. It really started to come know, on it. It really started to come together at the end of the year. It was together at the end of the year. It was together at the end of the year. It was almost like a miracle ending to 2022 almost like a miracle ending to 2022 almost like a miracle ending to 2022 because within about a week's time, I because within about a week's time, I because within about a week's time, I had three of these key leaders that just had three of these key leaders that just had three of these key leaders that just came to me, not me recruiting or finding came to me, not me recruiting or finding came to me, not me recruiting or finding them. They came to me all in about like them. They came to me all in about like them. They came to me all in about like I said, about a 7-day time frame and we I said, about a 7-day time frame and we I said, about a 7-day time frame and we had uh our our chief operating officer, had uh our our chief operating officer, had uh our our chief operating officer, he was a former executive at Walmart and he was a former executive at Walmart and he was a former executive at Walmart and then um was uh the number two guy at then um was uh the number two guy at then um was uh the number two guy at Hanes Brands. He I've known him for many

Hanes Brands. He I've known him for many Hanes Brands. He I've known him for many years, strong believer, and he'd had all years, strong believer, and he'd had all years, strong believer, and he'd had all this operational experience at very this operational experience at very this operational experience at very large companies and very and he he had large companies and very and he he had large companies and very and he he had been the CMO of walmart.com and he'd been the CMO of walmart.com and he'd been the CMO of walmart.com and he'd done lots of different different unique done lots of different different unique done lots of different different unique experiences, experiences, experiences, but um he called me out of the blue but um he called me out of the blue but um he called me out of the blue because he read something in a book because he read something in a book because he read something in a book where it talked about YouVersion and he where it talked about YouVersion and he where it talked about YouVersion and he was just thought it was cool that he was just thought it was cool that he was just thought it was cool that he somebody he knew was, you know, they somebody he knew was, you know, they somebody he knew was, you know, they wrote about in this book and that wrote about in this book and that wrote about in this book and that started a conversation and 11 days later started a conversation and 11 days later started a conversation and 11 days later he and his wife were in my office he and his wife were in my office he and his wife were in my office interviewing for this role where his interviewing for this role where his interviewing for this role where his entire career path was to be the CEO of entire career path was to be the CEO of entire career path was to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company and right when a Fortune 500 company and right when a Fortune 500 company and right when he's at the moment where that is the he's at the moment where that is the he's at the moment where that is the possibility for him, possibility for him, possibility for him, he feels like God's telling him to come he feels like God's telling him to come he feels like God's telling him to come and join this this ministry. And uh and and join this this ministry. And uh and and join this this ministry. And uh and so he was one of three in a 7-day I so he was one of three in a 7-day I so he was one of three in a 7-day I think I think it was a 7-day time frame think I think it was a 7-day time frame think I think it was a 7-day time frame that uh that God pulled together there that uh that God pulled together there that uh that God pulled together there at the very end of 2022 and right at the at the very end of 2022 and right at the at the very end of 2022 and right at the same time, even before these folks same time, even before these folks same time, even before these folks showed up, our numbers really began to showed up, our numbers really began to showed up, our numbers really began to turn. Like the work we were putting in turn. Like the work we were putting in turn. Like the work we were putting in that year, we started to see the fruit that year, we started to see the fruit that year, we started to see the fruit of it. And and it became a quite an of it. And and it became a quite an of it. And and it became a quite an inflection point. I mean, the the inflection point. I mean, the the inflection point. I mean, the the decision happened earlier that year, but decision happened earlier that year, but decision happened earlier that year, but the the data and the inflection point the the data and the inflection point the the data and the inflection point seemed to happen about 12 months later.

seemed to happen about 12 months later. seemed to happen about 12 months later. And um and it was it was a really cool And um and it was it was a really cool And um and it was it was a really cool confirmation. I my word for that year confirmation. I my word for that year confirmation. I my word for that year was breakthrough. was breakthrough. was breakthrough. And I just I felt like And I just I felt like And I just I felt like the whole year was like trying to break the whole year was like trying to break the whole year was like trying to break through through through and then at the end it was like a and then at the end it was like a and then at the end it was like a breakthrough. So it was like a different breakthrough. So it was like a different breakthrough. So it was like a different kind of like that was the kind of like that was the kind of like that was the um um um that was a special year on a lot of that was a special year on a lot of that was a special year on a lot of fronts. But but anyway, that that to fronts. But but anyway, that that to fronts. But but anyway, that that to give kind of a little bit of give kind of a little bit of give kind of a little bit of perspective, in 2021, I believe we had perspective, in 2021, I believe we had perspective, in 2021, I believe we had 40 million new devices that installed 40 million new devices that installed 40 million new devices that installed the Bible app that year, which seems the Bible app that year, which seems the Bible app that year, which seems like a really large number and it is a like a really large number and it is a like a really large number and it is a large number, but when you consider large number, but when you consider large number, but when you consider device churn and people getting new device churn and people getting new device churn and people getting new phones phones phones >> I got a new phone, so >> I got a new phone, so >> I got a new phone, so >> the real growth was really much lower >> the real growth was really much lower >> the real growth was really much lower and and so it's kind of a little bit and and so it's kind of a little bit and and so it's kind of a little bit deceptive if you just looked at that deceptive if you just looked at that deceptive if you just looked at that number and didn't understand all of the number and didn't understand all of the number and didn't understand all of the numbers. Um but to put that in contrast, numbers. Um but to put that in contrast, numbers. Um but to put that in contrast, this year will have about 154 million this year will have about 154 million this year will have about 154 million new devices, you know, in just 2025, so new devices, you know, in just 2025, so new devices, you know, in just 2025, so it's not just it's not just it's not just gone a little bit, it's substantially gone a little bit, it's substantially gone a little bit, it's substantially higher. Um and that's kind of what I higher. Um and that's kind of what I higher. Um and that's kind of what I thought would be possible and we thought would be possible and we thought would be possible and we actually think much more is possible actually think much more is possible actually think much more is possible when we map to the future, but we when we map to the future, but we when we map to the future, but we involves uh a commitment to resources involves uh a commitment to resources involves uh a commitment to resources and a commitment to to risk and a lot of and a commitment to to risk and a lot of and a commitment to to risk and a lot of things that we were not taking at that things that we were not taking at that things that we were not taking at that time that we are now.

time that we are now. time that we are now. Well, you said a couple of things that I Well, you said a couple of things that I Well, you said a couple of things that I want to drill down on a little bit. You want to drill down on a little bit. You want to drill down on a little bit. You made a a decision that a lot of leaders made a a decision that a lot of leaders made a a decision that a lot of leaders struggle with and that is struggle with and that is struggle with and that is you put out job applications for senior you put out job applications for senior you put out job applications for senior leaders. You're already overwhelmed, you leaders. You're already overwhelmed, you leaders. You're already overwhelmed, you know, it sounds like you got other know, it sounds like you got other know, it sounds like you got other things happening in your life beyond things happening in your life beyond things happening in your life beyond just what's going on at YouVersion just what's going on at YouVersion just what's going on at YouVersion and you had qualified candidates, but it and you had qualified candidates, but it and you had qualified candidates, but it didn't feel right, so you left those didn't feel right, so you left those didn't feel right, so you left those seats vacant. seats vacant. seats vacant. I have made the mistake of not leaving I have made the mistake of not leaving I have made the mistake of not leaving those seats vacant. I've talked to so those seats vacant. I've talked to so those seats vacant. I've talked to so many other leaders who are like, well, I many other leaders who are like, well, I many other leaders who are like, well, I guess this is the best God sent, this guess this is the best God sent, this guess this is the best God sent, this will do. will do. will do. You waited and toward the end of the You waited and toward the end of the You waited and toward the end of the year you had three people materialize in year you had three people materialize in year you had three people materialize in 7 days. What was the thing that made you 7 days. What was the thing that made you 7 days. What was the thing that made you wait and not just fill it with, you wait and not just fill it with, you wait and not just fill it with, you know, a B-level or an A-minus level know, a B-level or an A-minus level know, a B-level or an A-minus level leader who, well, this is probably the leader who, well, this is probably the leader who, well, this is probably the best we're going to get cuz I think a best we're going to get cuz I think a best we're going to get cuz I think a lot of leaders struggle with that, lot of leaders struggle with that, lot of leaders struggle with that, Bobby. Yeah. Uh you know, Bobby. Yeah. Uh you know, Bobby. Yeah. Uh you know, it honestly was it honestly was it honestly was it was a it was a it was a it was really just discernment. I was it was really just discernment. I was it was really just discernment. I was praying for discernment. And I know that praying for discernment. And I know that praying for discernment. And I know that that seems like a an easy answer, but that seems like a an easy answer, but that seems like a an easy answer, but it it was sincerely that. I mean, one of it it was sincerely that. I mean, one of it it was sincerely that. I mean, one of the candidates that we had was extremely the candidates that we had was extremely the candidates that we had was extremely qualified. Like maybe I might even say qualified. Like maybe I might even say qualified. Like maybe I might even say overqualified, so I wouldn't even call overqualified, so I wouldn't even call overqualified, so I wouldn't even call them a B-level candidate. They were an them a B-level candidate. They were an them a B-level candidate. They were an A-level candidate uh for one of the A-level candidate uh for one of the A-level candidate uh for one of the roles.

roles. roles. Um Um Um and I even went to the point where I was and I even went to the point where I was and I even went to the point where I was pretty much telling him that we were pretty much telling him that we were pretty much telling him that we were going to make an offer and then I sat on going to make an offer and then I sat on going to make an offer and then I sat on it for the weekend it for the weekend it for the weekend and and through just prayer and and and through just prayer and and and through just prayer and discernment, I just said I just don't discernment, I just said I just don't discernment, I just said I just don't think that he's the right person and it think that he's the right person and it think that he's the right person and it was a very disappointing conversation was a very disappointing conversation was a very disappointing conversation for him and for me, honestly. for him and for me, honestly. for him and for me, honestly. >> it must have been for you, too. Yeah, >> it must have been for you, too. Yeah, >> it must have been for you, too. Yeah, for sure. So I um I talked to him about for sure. So I um I talked to him about for sure. So I um I talked to him about that and he was obviously disappointed, that and he was obviously disappointed, that and he was obviously disappointed, a little bit confused because of how it a little bit confused because of how it a little bit confused because of how it looked like everything had gone and looked like everything had gone and looked like everything had gone and went. And it really wasn't about him and went. And it really wasn't about him and went. And it really wasn't about him and I know that it's hard to say it's easy I know that it's hard to say it's easy I know that it's hard to say it's easy to say that and it's hard to not feel to say that and it's hard to not feel to say that and it's hard to not feel that kind of in the moment. It was just that kind of in the moment. It was just that kind of in the moment. It was just I just didn't feel like for the role I just didn't feel like for the role I just didn't feel like for the role that he was the right person um for it, that he was the right person um for it, that he was the right person um for it, but it wasn't cuz he wasn't amazing and but it wasn't cuz he wasn't amazing and but it wasn't cuz he wasn't amazing and probably would do a good job in all the probably would do a good job in all the probably would do a good job in all the um he'd probably do a good job at the um he'd probably do a good job at the um he'd probably do a good job at the job, right? But but um job, right? But but um job, right? But but um you know, I I felt confident that that you know, I I felt confident that that you know, I I felt confident that that was the right decision even though it was the right decision even though it was the right decision even though it was difficult, but I will say fast was difficult, but I will say fast was difficult, but I will say fast forward two months or three months later forward two months or three months later forward two months or three months later and we don't have another candidate that and we don't have another candidate that and we don't have another candidate that is the right candidate and I'm is the right candidate and I'm is the right candidate and I'm second-guessing second-guessing second-guessing that decision, right? I'm thinking, man, that decision, right? I'm thinking, man, that decision, right? I'm thinking, man, maybe I got it wrong.

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but look at this resume. Look at the CV. but look at this resume. Look at the CV. Look at the experience. Look at the Look at the experience. Look at the Look at the experience. Look at the track record. Wow, we're fortunate to track record. Wow, we're fortunate to track record. Wow, we're fortunate to have someone like that. have someone like that. have someone like that. And then you don't hire when you really And then you don't hire when you really And then you don't hire when you really have a need. Can you say more without have a need. Can you say more without have a need. Can you say more without betraying confidences? betraying confidences? betraying confidences? Cuz I think a lot of us wrestle with our Cuz I think a lot of us wrestle with our Cuz I think a lot of us wrestle with our gut on that. gut on that. gut on that. I think I don't know if it's helpful, I think I don't know if it's helpful, I think I don't know if it's helpful, but I but I but I I feel like I the I needed to have a I feel like I the I needed to have a I feel like I the I needed to have a yes. yes. yes. So, but not not a no. Does that make So, but not not a no. Does that make So, but not not a no. Does that make sense? I mean like I my sense of sense? I mean like I my sense of sense? I mean like I my sense of discernment was I needed to feel discernment was I needed to feel discernment was I needed to feel confident that it was yes, this is the confident that it was yes, this is the confident that it was yes, this is the person. person. person. And some people I think approach it And some people I think approach it And some people I think approach it saying, "I'm going to do this unless I saying, "I'm going to do this unless I saying, "I'm going to do this unless I get a no." Like I logically this makes get a no." Like I logically this makes get a no." Like I logically this makes sense and I'm just waiting for a no. You sense and I'm just waiting for a no. You sense and I'm just waiting for a no. You know, for God to tell me no. And for me know, for God to tell me no. And for me know, for God to tell me no. And for me it was more like I couldn't get absolute it was more like I couldn't get absolute it was more like I couldn't get absolute confidence that this guy was that this confidence that this guy was that this confidence that this guy was that this guy was a yes. And and it's I I I don't guy was a yes. And and it's I I I don't guy was a yes. And and it's I I I don't know if I could point to any single know if I could point to any single know if I could point to any single attribute. Um I mean, perhaps attribute. Um I mean, perhaps attribute. Um I mean, perhaps perhaps I could say culture would have perhaps I could say culture would have perhaps I could say culture would have been the area that maybe there was a been the area that maybe there was a been the area that maybe there was a question mark, you know, like how like question mark, you know, like how like question mark, you know, like how like would fit within our culture.

would fit within our culture. would fit within our culture. Um but honestly, Um but honestly, Um but honestly, you know, I I felt like he probably you know, I I felt like he probably you know, I I felt like he probably could adapt and probably could do this. could adapt and probably could do this. could adapt and probably could do this. I I just I I just I I just It's I wish I had a cleaner answer for It's I wish I had a cleaner answer for It's I wish I had a cleaner answer for you other than this. I went into it and you other than this. I went into it and you other than this. I went into it and I just I got to really need you to make I just I got to really need you to make I just I got to really need you to make this obvious to me that it's a yes. this obvious to me that it's a yes. this obvious to me that it's a yes. And after going through it I didn't get And after going through it I didn't get And after going through it I didn't get that. Show up and it was kind of in your that. Show up and it was kind of in your that. Show up and it was kind of in your gut and in your prayer and discernment, gut and in your prayer and discernment, gut and in your prayer and discernment, yes, yes, yes? yes, yes, yes? yes, yes, yes? Yeah, it it it was yeah, and it wasn't Yeah, it it it was yeah, and it wasn't Yeah, it it it was yeah, and it wasn't yes, yes, yes, you know, kind of and yes, yes, yes, you know, kind of and yes, yes, yes, you know, kind of and that's what I mean. I I needed to know that's what I mean. I I needed to know that's what I mean. I I needed to know that it was a yes to hire him. that it was a yes to hire him. that it was a yes to hire him. And I couldn't get that confident yes. And I couldn't get that confident yes. And I couldn't get that confident yes. >> Oh, I meant I meant months down the >> Oh, I meant I meant months down the >> Oh, I meant I meant months down the road. So, three people show up in 7 days road. So, three people show up in 7 days road. So, three people show up in 7 days and that felt Was that like a yes, yes, and that felt Was that like a yes, yes, and that felt Was that like a yes, yes, yes? Yeah, I mean, it was it was really yes? Yeah, I mean, it was it was really yes? Yeah, I mean, it was it was really fascinating because it was a surprise fascinating because it was a surprise fascinating because it was a surprise cuz I think so many many of the other cuz I think so many many of the other cuz I think so many many of the other candidates we'd looked at we were like candidates we'd looked at we were like candidates we'd looked at we were like recruiting and I was I mean, I was recruiting and I was I mean, I was recruiting and I was I mean, I was working hard to call people. It was working hard to call people. It was working hard to call people. It was almost like when I stopped striving so almost like when I stopped striving so almost like when I stopped striving so hard trying to make that happen that God hard trying to make that happen that God hard trying to make that happen that God was like, "Okay, I think you've was like, "Okay, I think you've was like, "Okay, I think you've surrendered now and I'm just going to surrendered now and I'm just going to surrendered now and I'm just going to release the candidates I've had planned release the candidates I've had planned release the candidates I've had planned all along, you know, for these roles."

all along, you know, for these roles." all along, you know, for these roles." Crazy. And I Crazy. And I Crazy. And I I know it doesn't always work that way. I know it doesn't always work that way. I know it doesn't always work that way. That is literally how it felt like when That is literally how it felt like when That is literally how it felt like when it came together and and I was almost it came together and and I was almost it came together and and I was almost um um um it almost felt a little bit too good to it almost felt a little bit too good to it almost felt a little bit too good to be true that like it's like an answer to be true that like it's like an answer to be true that like it's like an answer to prayer and when the answer comes you're prayer and when the answer comes you're prayer and when the answer comes you're standing there and going, "But but what standing there and going, "But but what standing there and going, "But but what if what if it like what if it falls if what if it like what if it falls if what if it like what if it falls apart or what if he changes his mind or apart or what if he changes his mind or apart or what if he changes his mind or what if this doesn't happen?" And I'm what if this doesn't happen?" And I'm what if this doesn't happen?" And I'm like going, "I'm witnessing a miracle like going, "I'm witnessing a miracle like going, "I'm witnessing a miracle cuz cuz the person like some of the cuz cuz the person like some of the cuz cuz the person like some of the people that came were people that I people that came were people that I people that came were people that I wouldn't have even thought would be wouldn't have even thought would be wouldn't have even thought would be possible. Um from like compensation or possible. Um from like compensation or possible. Um from like compensation or from you know, stage of life and just from you know, stage of life and just from you know, stage of life and just their career trajectory and all that their career trajectory and all that their career trajectory and all that kind of stuff. Um kind of stuff. Um kind of stuff. Um so I think a little bit of what made it so I think a little bit of what made it so I think a little bit of what made it clear was just how clear was just how clear was just how um um um just how much of a miracle was it the just how much of a miracle was it the just how much of a miracle was it the conversation was even taking place um conversation was even taking place um conversation was even taking place um made it pretty obvious that God was made it pretty obvious that God was made it pretty obvious that God was doing something extraordinary and the doing something extraordinary and the doing something extraordinary and the circumstance of how it came about felt circumstance of how it came about felt circumstance of how it came about felt you know, like it it it couldn't have you know, like it it it couldn't have you know, like it it it couldn't have been manufactured. Like it was just so been manufactured. Like it was just so been manufactured. Like it was just so um so obvious, I guess. So, the but um so obvious, I guess. So, the but um so obvious, I guess. So, the but yeah, the answer was yes. It was a yes.

yeah, the answer was yes. It was a yes. yeah, the answer was yes. It was a yes. The problem there was I couldn't The problem there was I couldn't The problem there was I couldn't announce it for about 45 days because announce it for about 45 days because announce it for about 45 days because one of them was was a C-level exec at a one of them was was a C-level exec at a one of them was was a C-level exec at a public company and they had all these public company and they had all these public company and they had all these protocol where they had to like, you protocol where they had to like, you protocol where they had to like, you know, and it was super quiet. The the know, and it was super quiet. The the know, and it was super quiet. The the number people that knew had to be number people that knew had to be number people that knew had to be extremely tight and small because like extremely tight and small because like extremely tight and small because like there's real implications if this news there's real implications if this news there's real implications if this news leaks out and someone finds out. So, it leaks out and someone finds out. So, it leaks out and someone finds out. So, it was a whole different thing for us. And was a whole different thing for us. And was a whole different thing for us. And then that that entire waiting period of then that that entire waiting period of then that that entire waiting period of announcing it in my mind I'm going, announcing it in my mind I'm going, announcing it in my mind I'm going, "There's still an opportunity for them "There's still an opportunity for them "There's still an opportunity for them to back out. There's still an to back out. There's still an to back out. There's still an opportunity for them to say no." And so opportunity for them to say no." And so opportunity for them to say no." And so until it's announced I'm uncomfortable, until it's announced I'm uncomfortable, until it's announced I'm uncomfortable, you know, in that whole window. you know, in that whole window. you know, in that whole window. Um so, but you know, God was faithful Um so, but you know, God was faithful Um so, but you know, God was faithful through it and and it was still that was through it and and it was still that was through it and and it was still that was just the beginning. Obviously, God's just the beginning. Obviously, God's just the beginning. Obviously, God's brought a ton of brought a ton of brought a ton of like way more people and really talented like way more people and really talented like way more people and really talented people since then and I don't want to people since then and I don't want to people since then and I don't want to over focus on just one or two key hires. over focus on just one or two key hires. over focus on just one or two key hires. It was more of just uh symbolic or just It was more of just uh symbolic or just It was more of just uh symbolic or just a picture of what happened that year, a picture of what happened that year, a picture of what happened that year, you know, it's just really difficult and you know, it's just really difficult and you know, it's just really difficult and at the very end it really did kind of at the very end it really did kind of at the very end it really did kind of break loose. break loose. break loose. So, there's a rising tide that lifts all So, there's a rising tide that lifts all So, there's a rising tide that lifts all boats that's seems to be happening boats that's seems to be happening boats that's seems to be happening around the world right now, which is around the world right now, which is around the world right now, which is amazing.

amazing. amazing. And yet already by the end of 2022 you And yet already by the end of 2022 you And yet already by the end of 2022 you said you had seen said you had seen said you had seen the momentum shift and the growth the momentum shift and the growth the momentum shift and the growth return. And I think there's return. And I think there's return. And I think there's a lot of leaders listening who are a lot of leaders listening who are a lot of leaders listening who are familiar with seasons of stalled familiar with seasons of stalled familiar with seasons of stalled momentum or diminishing returns. What momentum or diminishing returns. What momentum or diminishing returns. What were some of the things that you did in were some of the things that you did in were some of the things that you did in that first year that first year that first year to try to help spark more momentum to try to help spark more momentum to try to help spark more momentum behind people reading the Bible? behind people reading the Bible? behind people reading the Bible? Well, I mean, we we started with um Well, I mean, we we started with um Well, I mean, we we started with um I started with an articulated vision I started with an articulated vision I started with an articulated vision that was bigger than our past. that was bigger than our past. that was bigger than our past. Um and what I what I mean by that is I Um and what I what I mean by that is I Um and what I what I mean by that is I have this have this have this um I've had for quite some time this um I've had for quite some time this um I've had for quite some time this philosophy that um philosophy that um philosophy that um that it's important that we have an that it's important that we have an that it's important that we have an articulated vision that's much, much articulated vision that's much, much articulated vision that's much, much bigger, like way bigger than anything bigger, like way bigger than anything bigger, like way bigger than anything that exists or has existed at your that exists or has existed at your that exists or has existed at your ministry. ministry. ministry. Otherwise, just your mind share and the Otherwise, just your mind share and the Otherwise, just your mind share and the way that you think about things are kind way that you think about things are kind way that you think about things are kind of your it's it's drawn either of your it's it's drawn either of your it's it's drawn either direction, right? If you have direction, right? If you have direction, right? If you have whichever's bigger is the way is the way whichever's bigger is the way is the way whichever's bigger is the way is the way your brain works. So, if you are your brain works. So, if you are your brain works. So, if you are celebrating the size of your church and celebrating the size of your church and celebrating the size of your church and how big it is and everything that's been how big it is and everything that's been how big it is and everything that's been accomplished and the rich history and accomplished and the rich history and accomplished and the rich history and all the things that have happened kind all the things that have happened kind all the things that have happened kind of in the past, of in the past, of in the past, um it is really hard if you don't have a um it is really hard if you don't have a um it is really hard if you don't have a vision that's vastly bigger than that vision that's vastly bigger than that vision that's vastly bigger than that and what you think is possible, it's and what you think is possible, it's and what you think is possible, it's really hard for your mind and your really hard for your mind and your really hard for your mind and your energy and your and your mind share to energy and your and your mind share to energy and your and your mind share to all not go backwards into what is um to

all not go backwards into what is um to all not go backwards into what is um to the present or to the past. the present or to the past. the present or to the past. Um versus uh we have this this amazing Um versus uh we have this this amazing Um versus uh we have this this amazing community of people that live outside community of people that live outside community of people that live outside the walls of our church, outside the the walls of our church, outside the the walls of our church, outside the walls of our ministry and in our cities walls of our ministry and in our cities walls of our ministry and in our cities alone, I'm just, you know, making these alone, I'm just, you know, making these alone, I'm just, you know, making these numbers up, but let's just say the numbers up, but let's just say the numbers up, but let's just say the cities that Life Church has campuses in cities that Life Church has campuses in cities that Life Church has campuses in there are 100 million people there are 100 million people there are 100 million people that don't know Jesus. that don't know Jesus. that don't know Jesus. And we can't anything we have inside our And we can't anything we have inside our And we can't anything we have inside our buildings is just so tiny in comparison buildings is just so tiny in comparison buildings is just so tiny in comparison to that huge opportunity that's outside to that huge opportunity that's outside to that huge opportunity that's outside that we're propelled to to risk take that we're propelled to to risk take that we're propelled to to risk take risks. We know we have nothing to lose risks. We know we have nothing to lose risks. We know we have nothing to lose and everything to gain kind of in the and everything to gain kind of in the and everything to gain kind of in the way that we're thinking about it. And way that we're thinking about it. And way that we're thinking about it. And what had happened was what had happened was what had happened was with YouVersion we had celebrate this with YouVersion we had celebrate this with YouVersion we had celebrate this milestone of half a billion people milestone of half a billion people milestone of half a billion people and people are like, "When do you think and people are like, "When do you think and people are like, "When do you think you're going to hit a billion?" you're going to hit a billion?" you're going to hit a billion?" you know, and as kind of the next you know, and as kind of the next you know, and as kind of the next milestone. milestone. milestone. And and of course on the trajectory we And and of course on the trajectory we And and of course on the trajectory we were on it was going to take a minute. were on it was going to take a minute. were on it was going to take a minute. Like it was going to be well, maybe Like it was going to be well, maybe Like it was going to be well, maybe another 13 years. I don't know. You another 13 years. I don't know. You another 13 years. I don't know. You know, it's going to be a while till we know, it's going to be a while till we know, it's going to be a while till we get there.

get there. get there. But I realized that a milestone of a But I realized that a milestone of a But I realized that a milestone of a billion, if that was the milestone that billion, if that was the milestone that billion, if that was the milestone that we were after, that meant that we were after, that meant that we were after, that meant that everything past half a billion meant our everything past half a billion meant our everything past half a billion meant our past was bigger than our future. If past was bigger than our future. If past was bigger than our future. If that's what we're pointing to, right? that's what we're pointing to, right? that's what we're pointing to, right? Cuz cuz every day went by it's less than Cuz cuz every day went by it's less than Cuz cuz every day went by it's less than half a billion to get to a billion and half a billion to get to a billion and half a billion to get to a billion and we and we're so our number that we've we and we're so our number that we've we and we're so our number that we've achieved is less. I know it's kind of achieved is less. I know it's kind of achieved is less. I know it's kind of might seem a little bit silly, but I might seem a little bit silly, but I might seem a little bit silly, but I actually had to go map out like what actually had to go map out like what actually had to go map out like what would it take to what would we get to if would it take to what would we get to if would it take to what would we get to if we really could accelerate this by 2033. we really could accelerate this by 2033. we really could accelerate this by 2033. Um and we think we can get past 3 Um and we think we can get past 3 Um and we think we can get past 3 billion by 2033. So, I moved I moved our billion by 2033. So, I moved I moved our billion by 2033. So, I moved I moved our sights off of a billion and I moved it sights off of a billion and I moved it sights off of a billion and I moved it past that because I needed the vision to past that because I needed the vision to past that because I needed the vision to be way bigger. That was first. be way bigger. That was first. be way bigger. That was first. >> Wow. So, 2033 being the 2000th >> Wow. So, 2033 being the 2000th >> Wow. So, 2033 being the 2000th anniversary of the resurrection of Jesus anniversary of the resurrection of Jesus anniversary of the resurrection of Jesus where a lot of metrics are moving right where a lot of metrics are moving right where a lot of metrics are moving right now in the wider church. now in the wider church. now in the wider church. >> Yes. Which is great. And we try to move >> Yes. Which is great. And we try to move >> Yes. Which is great. And we try to move and every year we actually try to cast and every year we actually try to cast and every year we actually try to cast to 2034 to 2034 to 2034 and 2035 as the year goes on cuz I don't and 2035 as the year goes on cuz I don't and 2035 as the year goes on cuz I don't want this hard cut, you know, on on the want this hard cut, you know, on on the want this hard cut, you know, on on the date of 2033 because I want to just keep date of 2033 because I want to just keep date of 2033 because I want to just keep a vision that's in front of us that's a vision that's in front of us that's a vision that's in front of us that's way bigger than what we what we've way bigger than what we what we've way bigger than what we what we've experienced. So, that was probably the experienced. So, that was probably the experienced. So, that was probably the first step and then um first step and then um first step and then um and then it probably it just it was and then it probably it just it was and then it probably it just it was constant repetition on the vision and constant repetition on the vision and constant repetition on the vision and constant um constant um constant um articulating articulating articulating kind of a different mindset around speed kind of a different mindset around speed kind of a different mindset around speed um and agility that I felt like we had um and agility that I felt like we had um and agility that I felt like we had kind of become a little bit too kind of become a little bit too kind of become a little bit too um overly systematized and we weren't um overly systematized and we weren't um overly systematized and we weren't entrepreneurially enough. It's entrepreneurially enough. It's entrepreneurially enough. It's entrepreneurial enough to do that.

entrepreneurial enough to do that. entrepreneurial enough to do that. >> thing. Release that daily devotional, um >> thing. Release that daily devotional, um >> thing. Release that daily devotional, um make sure we're compliant with the make sure we're compliant with the make sure we're compliant with the latest iOS software updates and, you latest iOS software updates and, you latest iOS software updates and, you know, business as usual. And then and know, business as usual. And then and know, business as usual. And then and there's and there's just an inherent there's and there's just an inherent there's and there's just an inherent risk aversion that comes in. Um and that risk aversion that comes in. Um and that risk aversion that comes in. Um and that that comes in. that comes in. that comes in. >> the more you have to lose, right? >> the more you have to lose, right? >> the more you have to lose, right? >> Yeah, and and that but that again is a >> Yeah, and and that but that again is a >> Yeah, and and that but that again is a it's a mindset shift and so I have to it's a mindset shift and so I have to it's a mindset shift and so I have to make sure people understand my desire make sure people understand my desire make sure people understand my desire for us to take more risks. And not only for us to take more risks. And not only for us to take more risks. And not only that, but I got to reward it and I have that, but I got to reward it and I have that, but I got to reward it and I have to be careful that I'm not um doing the to be careful that I'm not um doing the to be careful that I'm not um doing the opposite when we take a risk and fail. opposite when we take a risk and fail. opposite when we take a risk and fail. Like how I respond and how I react. And Like how I respond and how I react. And Like how I respond and how I react. And so, that first year was a whole lot of so, that first year was a whole lot of so, that first year was a whole lot of just These are not new values for us, just These are not new values for us, just These are not new values for us, but it was just a whole lot of but it was just a whole lot of but it was just a whole lot of realignment around those things. And and realignment around those things. And and realignment around those things. And and honestly, there was some transition that honestly, there was some transition that honestly, there was some transition that happens cuz you start to change all happens cuz you start to change all happens cuz you start to change all these things. There's going to be people these things. There's going to be people these things. There's going to be people that are like, "Man, I I don't know if that are like, "Man, I I don't know if that are like, "Man, I I don't know if this is for me." And so, we had we had this is for me." And so, we had we had this is for me." And so, we had we had some transition to work through and lead some transition to work through and lead some transition to work through and lead through. through. through. Um but and on the on the other side of I Um but and on the on the other side of I Um but and on the on the other side of I would you know, I wish I could say I was would you know, I wish I could say I was would you know, I wish I could say I was doing all the right things, but I also doing all the right things, but I also doing all the right things, but I also was doing a lot of wrong things, which was doing a lot of wrong things, which was doing a lot of wrong things, which was leading at kind of the wrong level was leading at kind of the wrong level was leading at kind of the wrong level and I was way down in a lot of the the and I was way down in a lot of the the and I was way down in a lot of the the details somewhat by by necessity, but details somewhat by by necessity, but details somewhat by by necessity, but but also um not really operating and in but also um not really operating and in but also um not really operating and in my strengths. And so, I I was kind of it my strengths. And so, I I was kind of it my strengths. And so, I I was kind of it was hard because I wasn't operating in was hard because I wasn't operating in was hard because I wasn't operating in my strengths for for a good part of the my strengths for for a good part of the my strengths for for a good part of the year.

year. year. Was there anything else you did? I mean, Was there anything else you did? I mean, Was there anything else you did? I mean, I see the huge vision, which I want to I see the huge vision, which I want to I see the huge vision, which I want to come back to. Um come back to. Um come back to. Um increasing the speed, questioning increasing the speed, questioning increasing the speed, questioning assumptions, assumptions, assumptions, all that sort of stuff would sort of all that sort of stuff would sort of all that sort of stuff would sort of rattle the cages. Were there technical rattle the cages. Were there technical rattle the cages. Were there technical things like we're going to hack the things like we're going to hack the things like we're going to hack the algorithm or anything like that that you algorithm or anything like that that you algorithm or anything like that that you were looking at that was sort of more in were looking at that was sort of more in were looking at that was sort of more in the weeds or specific? Yeah, I mean we the weeds or specific? Yeah, I mean we the weeds or specific? Yeah, I mean we we begin to look, you know, up up to we begin to look, you know, up up to we begin to look, you know, up up to that point um outside the Bible app for that point um outside the Bible app for that point um outside the Bible app for kids, which is a completely different kids, which is a completely different kids, which is a completely different app targeting children, um we were a one app targeting children, um we were a one app targeting children, um we were a one app strategy. app strategy. app strategy. Um so Um so Um so uh you know, there was reasons why there uh you know, there was reasons why there uh you know, there was reasons why there were reasons why we were a one app were reasons why we were a one app were reasons why we were a one app strategy because the App Store really strategy because the App Store really strategy because the App Store really favored that favored that favored that um concept where um concept where um concept where um one app favored ranked higher if you um one app favored ranked higher if you um one app favored ranked higher if you know, as long as you kind of kept know, as long as you kind of kept know, as long as you kind of kept momentum going, momentum going, momentum going, you would rank higher in the App Store. you would rank higher in the App Store. you would rank higher in the App Store. So, it didn't if you diffused it, had a So, it didn't if you diffused it, had a So, it didn't if you diffused it, had a whole bunch of smaller apps, whole bunch of smaller apps, whole bunch of smaller apps, it really wouldn't add up to the the it really wouldn't add up to the the it really wouldn't add up to the the amount of one kind of app that's really amount of one kind of app that's really amount of one kind of app that's really present. So, present. So, present. So, there are some changes that took place there are some changes that took place there are some changes that took place on Google in particular that that on Google in particular that that on Google in particular that that changed that reality a little bit.

changed that reality a little bit. changed that reality a little bit. Um we had some Um we had some Um we had some competition that was competition that was competition that was uh maybe being ignored um globally and uh maybe being ignored um globally and uh maybe being ignored um globally and my say competition, I say that somewhat my say competition, I say that somewhat my say competition, I say that somewhat loosely because obviously we want people loosely because obviously we want people loosely because obviously we want people to read the Bible. If they use someone to read the Bible. If they use someone to read the Bible. If they use someone else's app, this just happened to be else's app, this just happened to be else's app, this just happened to be um honestly some bad actors uh or a bad um honestly some bad actors uh or a bad um honestly some bad actors uh or a bad actor that um was doing things that were actor that um was doing things that were actor that um was doing things that were just not not uh right. I don't know how just not not uh right. I don't know how just not not uh right. I don't know how to describe it. to describe it. to describe it. >> Like malware or just not a Um There was >> Like malware or just not a Um There was >> Like malware or just not a Um There was just I mean it was it was it was it was just I mean it was it was it was it was just I mean it was it was it was it was nothing wrong with being for-profit, but nothing wrong with being for-profit, but nothing wrong with being for-profit, but it was just really built around running it was just really built around running it was just really built around running ads of any type, political or otherwise, ads of any type, political or otherwise, ads of any type, political or otherwise, you know, they didn't care. They're just you know, they didn't care. They're just you know, they didn't care. They're just going to load the Bible app with ads. going to load the Bible app with ads. going to load the Bible app with ads. And they come up with a mechanism that And they come up with a mechanism that And they come up with a mechanism that seemed to be working. They were spending seemed to be working. They were spending seemed to be working. They were spending ad money. They were creating this sort ad money. They were creating this sort ad money. They were creating this sort of loop on it. They were they were of loop on it. They were they were of loop on it. They were they were cheating in some ways by gaming some of cheating in some ways by gaming some of cheating in some ways by gaming some of the rankings and the the review system the rankings and the the review system the rankings and the the review system and all that, things that wouldn't be and all that, things that wouldn't be and all that, things that wouldn't be ethical, you know, for us to do. Um and ethical, you know, for us to do. Um and ethical, you know, for us to do. Um and and also in many ways impersonating us and also in many ways impersonating us and also in many ways impersonating us in kind of the effort to do it um to in kind of the effort to do it um to in kind of the effort to do it um to create and to create some confusion, you create and to create some confusion, you create and to create some confusion, you know, with people. And this is mostly know, with people. And this is mostly know, with people. And this is mostly happening in in other parts of the happening in in other parts of the happening in in other parts of the world. Um and we've kind of just like world. Um and we've kind of just like world. Um and we've kind of just like not ignored that but just sort of not ignored that but just sort of not ignored that but just sort of tolerated that, you know, for quite some tolerated that, you know, for quite some tolerated that, you know, for quite some time.

time. time. And so one of the things that changed And so one of the things that changed And so one of the things that changed that year 2021 is we said, "You know that year 2021 is we said, "You know that year 2021 is we said, "You know what? There's there's what? There's there's what? There's there's there are things that they're doing even there are things that they're doing even there are things that they're doing even though they're unethical and do a lot of though they're unethical and do a lot of though they're unethical and do a lot of things wrong." Um things wrong." Um things wrong." Um there are things they're doing that are there are things they're doing that are there are things they're doing that are reaching people that we're not reaching And one of the things that came from And one of the things that came from that process was the realization that we that process was the realization that we that process was the realization that we really needed an app that was a lighter really needed an app that was a lighter really needed an app that was a lighter app that's designed for places where app that's designed for places where app that's designed for places where smartphones have less connectivity where smartphones have less connectivity where smartphones have less connectivity where they're almost offline most of the time they're almost offline most of the time they're almost offline most of the time and where their phones are far less and where their phones are far less and where their phones are far less capable. So, if someone buys a $50 capable. So, if someone buys a $50 capable. So, if someone buys a $50 smartphone in Africa, um it's not the smartphone in Africa, um it's not the smartphone in Africa, um it's not the same thing as our $1,000 smartphone we same thing as our $1,000 smartphone we same thing as our $1,000 smartphone we buy in the United States. And I mean buy in the United States. And I mean buy in the United States. And I mean it's a smartphone and it still runs it's a smartphone and it still runs it's a smartphone and it still runs Android and it still runs applications, Android and it still runs applications, Android and it still runs applications, but there's a reason why it's $50 and but there's a reason why it's $50 and but there's a reason why it's $50 and not $1,000. not $1,000. not $1,000. And it's because it it has a lot less And it's because it it has a lot less And it's because it it has a lot less memory. There's just a lot less um memory. There's just a lot less um memory. There's just a lot less um it has some less capacity on the phone. it has some less capacity on the phone. it has some less capacity on the phone. So, so we really needed to launch we So, so we really needed to launch we So, so we really needed to launch we said we could basically launch a product said we could basically launch a product said we could basically launch a product that competes against the the bad actor, that competes against the the bad actor, that competes against the the bad actor, you know, in this and um and we can do you know, in this and um and we can do you know, in this and um and we can do it without any ads cuz our business it without any ads cuz our business it without any ads cuz our business model doesn't require ads. Like we're model doesn't require ads. Like we're model doesn't require ads. Like we're we're donor supported business model.

we're donor supported business model. we're donor supported business model. So, we basically can create a much So, we basically can create a much So, we basically can create a much better product than they create and we better product than they create and we better product than they create and we can do it real effectively. So, we can do it real effectively. So, we can do it real effectively. So, we launched what Bible app light launched what Bible app light launched what Bible app light um and we did that in the at the end of um and we did that in the at the end of um and we did that in the at the end of that year and that was one of the that year and that was one of the that year and that was one of the catalysts to growth that we saw. Wasn't catalysts to growth that we saw. Wasn't catalysts to growth that we saw. Wasn't the only one, but it was definitely an the only one, but it was definitely an the only one, but it was definitely an example something different we did. We example something different we did. We example something different we did. We sort of changed our approach to the sort of changed our approach to the sort of changed our approach to the market so we need to customize to this market so we need to customize to this market so we need to customize to this and competition was part of what drove and competition was part of what drove and competition was part of what drove us there even if it was unfair us there even if it was unfair us there even if it was unfair competition or whatever you want to call competition or whatever you want to call competition or whatever you want to call it, it was a reality, right? That we it, it was a reality, right? That we it, it was a reality, right? That we were in. So, we had to adapt to it. were in. So, we had to adapt to it. were in. So, we had to adapt to it. >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by Fund the Future Masterclass. Church Fund the Future Masterclass. Church Fund the Future Masterclass. Church leaders, maybe this feels familiar. You leaders, maybe this feels familiar. You leaders, maybe this feels familiar. You cast vision, you preach faithfully, but cast vision, you preach faithfully, but cast vision, you preach faithfully, but when it comes to finances and when it comes to finances and when it comes to finances and generational giving, generational giving, generational giving, you hit a wall. You ask your you hit a wall. You ask your you hit a wall. You ask your congregation to invest and suddenly the congregation to invest and suddenly the congregation to invest and suddenly the room goes quiet. Maybe you launch a room goes quiet. Maybe you launch a room goes quiet. Maybe you launch a giving campaign and by Monday, you've giving campaign and by Monday, you've giving campaign and by Monday, you've got pushback, an email inbox full of, got pushback, an email inbox full of, got pushback, an email inbox full of, "Hey, why'd you say that?" Right? "Hey, why'd you say that?" Right? "Hey, why'd you say that?" Right? Listen, I've had that tension, too. But Listen, I've had that tension, too. But Listen, I've had that tension, too. But here's what I've learned. Leading a here's what I've learned. Leading a here's what I've learned. Leading a generous, fully funded church isn't generous, fully funded church isn't generous, fully funded church isn't about gimmicks or pressure. And that's about gimmicks or pressure. And that's about gimmicks or pressure. And that's exactly why me, Craig Rochelle, Chris exactly why me, Craig Rochelle, Chris exactly why me, Craig Rochelle, Chris Hodges, Ashley Wooldridge, Dan Clark, Hodges, Ashley Wooldridge, Dan Clark, Hodges, Ashley Wooldridge, Dan Clark, and others created the Fund the Future and others created the Fund the Future and others created the Fund the Future Masterclass. It's a step-by-step program Masterclass. It's a step-by-step program Masterclass. It's a step-by-step program to shift your church from transactional to shift your church from transactional to shift your church from transactional giving to transformational generosity.

giving to transformational generosity. giving to transformational generosity. Together, you'll be equipped to lead Together, you'll be equipped to lead Together, you'll be equipped to lead with vision, strategy, and tools to grow with vision, strategy, and tools to grow with vision, strategy, and tools to grow giving that's sustainable and giving that's sustainable and giving that's sustainable and spirit-led. Enrollment is open now, so spirit-led. Enrollment is open now, so spirit-led. Enrollment is open now, so click the link in this episode's click the link in this episode's click the link in this episode's description to get started. Now, that description to get started. Now, that description to get started. Now, that makes sense. You said something in makes sense. You said something in makes sense. You said something in passing that was so interesting to me. passing that was so interesting to me. passing that was so interesting to me. You know, you said you the first thing You know, you said you the first thing You know, you said you the first thing you did was you rethought your vision, you did was you rethought your vision, you did was you rethought your vision, which I think is incredible because in which I think is incredible because in which I think is incredible because in many ways, like we've told the story on many ways, like we've told the story on many ways, like we've told the story on this podcast, you've told it elsewhere this podcast, you've told it elsewhere this podcast, you've told it elsewhere about, you know, having this idea in an about, you know, having this idea in an about, you know, having this idea in an airport security line that you're going airport security line that you're going airport security line that you're going to create a digital version of the Bible to create a digital version of the Bible to create a digital version of the Bible that everybody can read, that everybody can read, that everybody can read, it almost failing or pretty much failing it almost failing or pretty much failing it almost failing or pretty much failing and then the App Store came out, so you and then the App Store came out, so you and then the App Store came out, so you built an app over the weekend. It it built an app over the weekend. It it built an app over the weekend. It it ranks. I mean, people can go back and ranks. I mean, people can go back and ranks. I mean, people can go back and and hear that. But nowhere in your mind and hear that. But nowhere in your mind and hear that. But nowhere in your mind was half a billion downloads. Like that was half a billion downloads. Like that was half a billion downloads. Like that that did not occur to you, I'm sure, that did not occur to you, I'm sure, that did not occur to you, I'm sure, because we've talked about it, Bobby. because we've talked about it, Bobby. because we've talked about it, Bobby. But it would be very easy in that moment But it would be very easy in that moment But it would be very easy in that moment to say, "Hey, this has been a good run." to say, "Hey, this has been a good run." to say, "Hey, this has been a good run." And you go back in, And you go back in, And you go back in, you you you re- dedicate yourself to we're going to re- dedicate yourself to we're going to re- dedicate yourself to we're going to see what we can do and you imagine a see what we can do and you imagine a see what we can do and you imagine a vision that's beyond a billion into 3 vision that's beyond a billion into 3 vision that's beyond a billion into 3 billion, 4 billion, 2033.

billion, 4 billion, 2033. billion, 4 billion, 2033. A lot of leaders have difficulty doing A lot of leaders have difficulty doing A lot of leaders have difficulty doing that because they can't see the future that because they can't see the future that because they can't see the future and because they've been so successful. and because they've been so successful. and because they've been so successful. Like you hinted at. Like what do you do Like you hinted at. Like what do you do Like you hinted at. Like what do you do when all your dreams have been when all your dreams have been when all your dreams have been fulfilled? When you're more successful. fulfilled? When you're more successful. fulfilled? When you're more successful. There are people listening to this There are people listening to this There are people listening to this podcast whose churches are bigger than podcast whose churches are bigger than podcast whose churches are bigger than they ever imagined. And you know, this they ever imagined. And you know, this they ever imagined. And you know, this podcast is bigger than I ever imagined podcast is bigger than I ever imagined podcast is bigger than I ever imagined it would be when I started 11 years ago. it would be when I started 11 years ago. it would be when I started 11 years ago. So, walk us through that process of So, walk us through that process of So, walk us through that process of reimagining because it would have been reimagining because it would have been reimagining because it would have been easy to say, "YouVersion was part of my easy to say, "YouVersion was part of my easy to say, "YouVersion was part of my past, not part of my future." So, when past, not part of my future." So, when past, not part of my future." So, when you're reigniting a vision, how did that you're reigniting a vision, how did that you're reigniting a vision, how did that happen? Yeah, I think there's different happen? Yeah, I think there's different happen? Yeah, I think there's different different dimensions. It's a great different dimensions. It's a great different dimensions. It's a great question. Um question. Um question. Um one one one one perspective is one perspective is one perspective is um um um I I would I didn't have the faith in the I I would I didn't have the faith in the I I would I didn't have the faith in the airport security line 2006 to kind of airport security line 2006 to kind of airport security line 2006 to kind of believe that one day there we'd be believe that one day there we'd be believe that one day there we'd be talking about a billion devices. I mean, talking about a billion devices. I mean, talking about a billion devices. I mean, the the concept of that would have been the the concept of that would have been the the concept of that would have been just so foreign and honestly just so foreign and honestly just so foreign and honestly I could I mean, I could have said the I could I mean, I could have said the I could I mean, I could have said the number or something, but it would have number or something, but it would have number or something, but it would have been this far-fetched, not connected to been this far-fetched, not connected to been this far-fetched, not connected to any sort of real belief, you know, in any sort of real belief, you know, in any sort of real belief, you know, in >> And that was the age of BlackBerry. Come >> And that was the age of BlackBerry. Come >> And that was the age of BlackBerry. Come on. Like we didn't even have an iPhone on. Like we didn't even have an iPhone on. Like we didn't even have an iPhone in 2006, right?

in 2006, right? in 2006, right? >> yes. I mean, I I I I'm a I can be a >> yes. I mean, I I I I'm a I can be a >> yes. I mean, I I I I'm a I can be a dreamer, but at the same time I'm kind dreamer, but at the same time I'm kind dreamer, but at the same time I'm kind of grounded to some sort of reality, of grounded to some sort of reality, of grounded to some sort of reality, right? And Yeah, some dreams are right? And Yeah, some dreams are right? And Yeah, some dreams are delusional. Yeah, you could just say, delusional. Yeah, you could just say, delusional. Yeah, you could just say, "Well, I I didn't have the faith for "Well, I I didn't have the faith for "Well, I I didn't have the faith for it." Or whatever whatever language you it." Or whatever whatever language you it." Or whatever whatever language you want to use, but um want to use, but um want to use, but um but as we begin to witness, you know, but as we begin to witness, you know, but as we begin to witness, you know, what God was doing through it over those what God was doing through it over those what God was doing through it over those years, your faith couldn't help but years, your faith couldn't help but years, your faith couldn't help but grow, grow, grow, you know, to to believe that more was you know, to to believe that more was you know, to to believe that more was possible. possible. possible. And you reach some point in time where And you reach some point in time where And you reach some point in time where you're like going, "Okay, it's it's on you're like going, "Okay, it's it's on you're like going, "Okay, it's it's on one level it's kind of surreal, but one level it's kind of surreal, but one level it's kind of surreal, but there's 10 million people this month there's 10 million people this month there's 10 million people this month that are installing the Bible app, you that are installing the Bible app, you that are installing the Bible app, you know, in in in new new devices, you know, in in in new new devices, you know, in in in new new devices, you know, in a month." Or there's 2 million know, in a month." Or there's 2 million know, in a month." Or there's 2 million new registered users in a month where we new registered users in a month where we new registered users in a month where we that's 2 million new brand new people, that's 2 million new brand new people, that's 2 million new brand new people, right? That we right? That we right? That we are reaching. are reaching. are reaching. And those numbers are big, but because And those numbers are big, but because And those numbers are big, but because you get there kind of over this this you get there kind of over this this you get there kind of over this this time frame, you start to realize, "Okay, time frame, you start to realize, "Okay, time frame, you start to realize, "Okay, this is actually real and this is this is actually real and this is this is actually real and this is possible. So, since this is possible, I possible. So, since this is possible, I possible. So, since this is possible, I probably should have I probably should probably should have I probably should probably should have I probably should be dreaming a bit bigger about what be dreaming a bit bigger about what be dreaming a bit bigger about what could be possible." And I I think the could be possible." And I I think the could be possible." And I I think the key there is just not getting key there is just not getting key there is just not getting comfortable. Like comfort is kind of the comfortable. Like comfort is kind of the comfortable. Like comfort is kind of the thing that we all tend to gravitate thing that we all tend to gravitate thing that we all tend to gravitate towards a lot of times because um it's towards a lot of times because um it's towards a lot of times because um it's easier, right? Like it's it's much easier, right? Like it's it's much easier, right? Like it's it's much easier for me to just go and circuit and easier for me to just go and circuit and easier for me to just go and circuit and tell a story about something that tell a story about something that tell a story about something that happened and have people go, "Man, happened and have people go, "Man, happened and have people go, "Man, that's amazing. Congratulations. Here's that's amazing. Congratulations. Here's that's amazing. Congratulations. Here's an honorary doctorate." Or here's an honorary doctorate." Or here's an honorary doctorate." Or here's something for, you know, to celebrate something for, you know, to celebrate something for, you know, to celebrate the success of it and and not risk any the success of it and and not risk any the success of it and and not risk any more because risking more involves the

more because risking more involves the more because risking more involves the risk of failure. You know, like what if risk of failure. You know, like what if risk of failure. You know, like what if I set a really ambitious goal now and we I set a really ambitious goal now and we I set a really ambitious goal now and we and you've heard me I've just and you've heard me I've just and you've heard me I've just articulated it on your podcast. I've articulated it on your podcast. I've articulated it on your podcast. I've articulated multiple places. I'm articulated multiple places. I'm articulated multiple places. I'm describing where I think we're going to describing where I think we're going to describing where I think we're going to go in 2033. What if we don't get there? go in 2033. What if we don't get there? go in 2033. What if we don't get there? I could have turned a really successful I could have turned a really successful I could have turned a really successful story now into a failure just because I story now into a failure just because I story now into a failure just because I predicted something that was going to be predicted something that was going to be predicted something that was going to be bigger and I just feel like God calls us bigger and I just feel like God calls us bigger and I just feel like God calls us to that the pulls us away from that to that the pulls us away from that to that the pulls us away from that comfort, you know, our calling is sort comfort, you know, our calling is sort comfort, you know, our calling is sort of much much bigger. And we have to be of much much bigger. And we have to be of much much bigger. And we have to be willing to kind of step out of the willing to kind of step out of the willing to kind of step out of the comfortable um place that success can comfortable um place that success can comfortable um place that success can kind of lead us to. The other thing that kind of lead us to. The other thing that kind of lead us to. The other thing that that framed it for me though in that that framed it for me though in that that framed it for me though in that it's very similar, but it was in that it's very similar, but it was in that it's very similar, but it was in that same time frame. I was reading the same time frame. I was reading the same time frame. I was reading the parable of the talents parable of the talents parable of the talents and um and um and um and the question that I left when I read and the question that I left when I read and the question that I left when I read it that that time cuz obviously I've it that that time cuz obviously I've it that that time cuz obviously I've read it many times before, but when I read it many times before, but when I read it many times before, but when I read it that time, read it that time, read it that time, my question was what did what did the my question was what did what did the my question was what did what did the servant with 11 talents do next? servant with 11 talents do next? servant with 11 talents do next? was the question. was the question. was the question. Um and you say, "What's the 11 11 Um and you say, "What's the 11 11 Um and you say, "What's the 11 11 talents? The guy got five, got 10. They talents? The guy got five, got 10. They talents? The guy got five, got 10. They gave the one to the uh the master gave gave the one to the uh the master gave gave the one to the uh the master gave the one to the one that had 10, so now the one to the one that had 10, so now the one to the one that had 10, so now he's 11."

he's 11." he's 11." And so the question is what did he do And so the question is what did he do And so the question is what did he do next? Because I felt like we were an 11 next? Because I felt like we were an 11 next? Because I felt like we were an 11 talent ministry, talent ministry, talent ministry, you know, in many ways. And and I have you know, in many ways. And and I have you know, in many ways. And and I have to believe he just saw maybe maybe he to believe he just saw maybe maybe he to believe he just saw maybe maybe he witnessed the wicked and lazy comment witnessed the wicked and lazy comment witnessed the wicked and lazy comment about the servant, you know, that had about the servant, you know, that had about the servant, you know, that had one cuz he received the one. So, he's one cuz he received the one. So, he's one cuz he received the one. So, he's probably, you know, witness a witness to probably, you know, witness a witness to probably, you know, witness a witness to this whole exchange. I don't know. Um this whole exchange. I don't know. Um this whole exchange. I don't know. Um but you have to believe that he risked but you have to believe that he risked but you have to believe that he risked it risked it again, you know, said, "I'm it risked it again, you know, said, "I'm it risked it again, you know, said, "I'm I I I can't just sit on the 11. I've got I I I can't just sit on the 11. I've got I I I can't just sit on the 11. I've got to actually turn around and an 11's a to actually turn around and an 11's a to actually turn around and an 11's a whole lot more than five, you know, and whole lot more than five, you know, and whole lot more than five, you know, and but I you got to believe that but I you got to believe that but I you got to believe that what a what a what a terrible response what a what a what a terrible response what a what a what a terrible response if he buried it. if he buried it. if he buried it. Instead, I need to protect it Instead, I need to protect it Instead, I need to protect it after you saw what just happened. after you saw what just happened. after you saw what just happened. So, that was also one of the framings So, that was also one of the framings So, that was also one of the framings that kind of led me into this is like that kind of led me into this is like that kind of led me into this is like going, "I don't want to be an 11-talent going, "I don't want to be an 11-talent going, "I don't want to be an 11-talent ministry or 11-talent leader ministry or 11-talent leader ministry or 11-talent leader that just buries it. that just buries it. that just buries it. That says, "We've achieved enough. And That says, "We've achieved enough. And That says, "We've achieved enough. And now we don't we no longer have a risk now we don't we no longer have a risk now we don't we no longer have a risk because we know that there's so many because we know that there's so many because we know that there's so many more people, right, that need God's more people, right, that need God's more people, right, that need God's word. We know that that what we're doing word. We know that that what we're doing word. We know that that what we're doing is actually impacting real lives. So, is actually impacting real lives. So, is actually impacting real lives. So, why wouldn't it be full throttle? Why why wouldn't it be full throttle? Why why wouldn't it be full throttle? Why wouldn't it be, you know, put to the wouldn't it be, you know, put to the wouldn't it be, you know, put to the floor on it?

floor on it? floor on it? And um but our human is wants us to be And um but our human is wants us to be And um but our human is wants us to be comfortable. So, it was just pushing comfortable. So, it was just pushing comfortable. So, it was just pushing into the into the into the I mean, there are many times in 2022 I mean, there are many times in 2022 I mean, there are many times in 2022 that I wish I could put that that genie that I wish I could put that that genie that I wish I could put that that genie back in the bottle and say, "Okay, let's back in the bottle and say, "Okay, let's back in the bottle and say, "Okay, let's go back to that comfort part that I was go back to that comfort part that I was go back to that comfort part that I was in before." I mean, it was it would have in before." I mean, it was it would have in before." I mean, it was it would have been great. been great. been great. >> Cool, it's 600 million. Let's go, >> Cool, it's 600 million. Let's go, >> Cool, it's 600 million. Let's go, everybody. everybody. everybody. >> Yeah. And it's, you know, I I I'm almost >> Yeah. And it's, you know, I I I'm almost >> Yeah. And it's, you know, I I I'm almost looking for that emeritus status or looking for that emeritus status or looking for that emeritus status or something, you know, that for that part something, you know, that for that part something, you know, that for that part that just says, you know, you don't that just says, you know, you don't that just says, you know, you don't you don't have to do anything right now. you don't have to do anything right now. you don't have to do anything right now. You do you can just talk about it. Um so You do you can just talk about it. Um so You do you can just talk about it. Um so so I mean, I think I think it's so I mean, I think I think it's so I mean, I think I think it's important for leaders to reflect on important for leaders to reflect on important for leaders to reflect on that, especially if they're sitting on that, especially if they're sitting on that, especially if they're sitting on what would be deemed as success in the what would be deemed as success in the what would be deemed as success in the past or that they've seen God bless past or that they've seen God bless past or that they've seen God bless their ministry in these incredible ways. their ministry in these incredible ways. their ministry in these incredible ways. I feel like it just comes with more I feel like it just comes with more I feel like it just comes with more responsibility. responsibility. responsibility. Um responsibility to take another risk Um responsibility to take another risk Um responsibility to take another risk and figure out what's next. Um and figure out what's next. Um and figure out what's next. Um I don't know. And I I the other thing I I don't know. And I I the other thing I I don't know. And I I the other thing I another perspective of is many years ago another perspective of is many years ago another perspective of is many years ago I had uh someone that you you would I had uh someone that you you would I had uh someone that you you would know, really respected leader. We had we know, really respected leader. We had we know, really respected leader. We had we were I think at a milestone of maybe 100 were I think at a milestone of maybe 100 were I think at a milestone of maybe 100 million devices at the time or close to million devices at the time or close to million devices at the time or close to that. And we're having dinner and he he that. And we're having dinner and he he that. And we're having dinner and he he looks at me and he's trying to give me a looks at me and he's trying to give me a looks at me and he's trying to give me a compliment.

compliment. compliment. But he says something along the lines But he says something along the lines But he says something along the lines of, "Man, Bobby, 100 million. of, "Man, Bobby, 100 million. of, "Man, Bobby, 100 million. Wow." He goes, "You know what? That Wow." He goes, "You know what? That Wow." He goes, "You know what? That that's enough. Like if you if you just that's enough. Like if you if you just that's enough. Like if you if you just if you did nothing else and just went to if you did nothing else and just went to if you did nothing else and just went to heaven heaven heaven and said 100 million people I helped and said 100 million people I helped and said 100 million people I helped connect to scripture, man, that well connect to scripture, man, that well connect to scripture, man, that well done. That's enough, you know." And I done. That's enough, you know." And I done. That's enough, you know." And I remember just thinking, "I'm not done." remember just thinking, "I'm not done." remember just thinking, "I'm not done." I mean, my goodness, there's so many I mean, my goodness, there's so many I mean, my goodness, there's so many more people. more people. more people. >> me. Yeah, I know. I mean, yeah, he's >> me. Yeah, I know. I mean, yeah, he's >> me. Yeah, I know. I mean, yeah, he's kind of like trying to and he was trying kind of like trying to and he was trying kind of like trying to and he was trying to say something nice, you know, at the to say something nice, you know, at the to say something nice, you know, at the time, but but it it was a point of time, but but it it was a point of time, but but it it was a point of reflection for me cuz I was like going, reflection for me cuz I was like going, reflection for me cuz I was like going, "Man, I'm certainly not done." And I "Man, I'm certainly not done." And I "Man, I'm certainly not done." And I don't think that I am and and so anyway, don't think that I am and and so anyway, don't think that I am and and so anyway, that was um that was um that was um that was probably the those are probably that was probably the those are probably that was probably the those are probably two points and that I already mentioned two points and that I already mentioned two points and that I already mentioned a little bit before, which is I had to a little bit before, which is I had to a little bit before, which is I had to kind of really be introspective kind of really be introspective kind of really be introspective about because we weren't growing and about because we weren't growing and about because we weren't growing and because I felt like the that God wanted because I felt like the that God wanted because I felt like the that God wanted his word to be in the hands of more his word to be in the hands of more his word to be in the hands of more people and he wanted, you know, more people and he wanted, you know, more people and he wanted, you know, more people to be impacted by it. Um what people to be impacted by it. Um what people to be impacted by it. Um what responsibility what was I doing that was responsibility what was I doing that was responsibility what was I doing that was holding that back? And um and one of the holding that back? And um and one of the holding that back? And um and one of the conclusions from that process could have conclusions from that process could have conclusions from that process could have been that I need to get out of the way.

been that I need to get out of the way. been that I need to get out of the way. I mean, if I if I couldn't if I didn't I mean, if I if I couldn't if I didn't I mean, if I if I couldn't if I didn't have the energy or if I didn't have the have the energy or if I didn't have the have the energy or if I didn't have the vision or if I or something, I mean, I vision or if I or something, I mean, I vision or if I or something, I mean, I I'd hate for that to be the outcome, but I'd hate for that to be the outcome, but I'd hate for that to be the outcome, but I I suppose that could have been, you I I suppose that could have been, you I I suppose that could have been, you know, one of the outcomes of that know, one of the outcomes of that know, one of the outcomes of that process, too. process, too. process, too. Been a really stimulating Been a really stimulating Been a really stimulating part of the conversation and challenging part of the conversation and challenging part of the conversation and challenging for me, too, because that's something for me, too, because that's something for me, too, because that's something I do struggle with from time to time. I do struggle with from time to time. I do struggle with from time to time. Like, you know, every dream I had about Like, you know, every dream I had about Like, you know, every dream I had about my life has been exceeded in my life has been exceeded in my life has been exceeded in many areas, not every area, but I'm sure many areas, not every area, but I'm sure many areas, not every area, but I'm sure many of them. And then it's like many of them. And then it's like many of them. And then it's like but I'm not done yet. And uh I think but I'm not done yet. And uh I think but I'm not done yet. And uh I think this has been a good primer. So, I'm this has been a good primer. So, I'm this has been a good primer. So, I'm going to do a a hard shift because you going to do a a hard shift because you going to do a a hard shift because you and I were talking about a different and I were talking about a different and I were talking about a different issue. issue. issue. And I know you use AI in in you version And I know you use AI in in you version And I know you use AI in in you version and we could go there, but I want to and we could go there, but I want to and we could go there, but I want to kind of open up the lens cuz I'm working kind of open up the lens cuz I'm working kind of open up the lens cuz I'm working on an AI project. You think about AI a on an AI project. You think about AI a on an AI project. You think about AI a lot. And I want to talk about that lot. And I want to talk about that lot. And I want to talk about that because I think we're at a pivotal because I think we're at a pivotal because I think we're at a pivotal moment in history, human history, and moment in history, human history, and moment in history, human history, and definitely in church history definitely in church history definitely in church history where I think most of us in the church where I think most of us in the church where I think most of us in the church are thinking about are thinking about are thinking about AI at the level of, "Hey, what's your AI at the level of, "Hey, what's your AI at the level of, "Hey, what's your favorite prompt, Bobby? Oh, mine is favorite prompt, Bobby? Oh, mine is favorite prompt, Bobby? Oh, mine is this. Oh, did you know this could do this. Oh, did you know this could do this. Oh, did you know this could do this? Have you downloaded this app?"

this? Have you downloaded this app?" this? Have you downloaded this app?" Like, that's where our conversation's Like, that's where our conversation's Like, that's where our conversation's going. That's not bad, but there are going. That's not bad, but there are going. That's not bad, but there are bigger metaphysical bigger metaphysical bigger metaphysical deep issues here that I think we need to deep issues here that I think we need to deep issues here that I think we need to be paying attention to and you are be paying attention to and you are be paying attention to and you are attuned to them. So, I'm just going to attuned to them. So, I'm just going to attuned to them. So, I'm just going to throw you a really broad question. throw you a really broad question. throw you a really broad question. What are you thinking about AI these What are you thinking about AI these What are you thinking about AI these days, Bobby? Fill us in. Yeah. Um days, Bobby? Fill us in. Yeah. Um days, Bobby? Fill us in. Yeah. Um well, you're well, you're well, you're you're giving me a lot more credit on you're giving me a lot more credit on you're giving me a lot more credit on thinking about deep issues. Um I thinking about deep issues. Um I thinking about deep issues. Um I probably am not nearly as deep as you in probably am not nearly as deep as you in probably am not nearly as deep as you in terms of the theology terms of the theology terms of the theology >> a theologian, not a philosopher. I just >> a theologian, not a philosopher. I just >> a theologian, not a philosopher. I just Me neither. I mean, I have a degree in Me neither. I mean, I have a degree in Me neither. I mean, I have a degree in finance. So, I don't know that my I finance. So, I don't know that my I finance. So, I don't know that my I don't know if I'm qualified to be too don't know if I'm qualified to be too don't know if I'm qualified to be too deep. Um deep. Um deep. Um but I I've always um but I I've always um but I I've always um I've always had this kind of grounding I've always had this kind of grounding I've always had this kind of grounding in in in reality as it relates to technology. I reality as it relates to technology. I reality as it relates to technology. I mean, I see technology in the broadest mean, I see technology in the broadest mean, I see technology in the broadest sense as a tool. sense as a tool. sense as a tool. Um it can be used for good, it can be Um it can be used for good, it can be Um it can be used for good, it can be used for evil. used for evil. used for evil. Um I do think that there Um I do think that there Um I do think that there the technology around large language the technology around large language the technology around large language models and around, you know, some of models and around, you know, some of models and around, you know, some of these concepts could be used for good, these concepts could be used for good, these concepts could be used for good, it could be used for evil. Um some of it could be used for evil. Um some of it could be used for evil. Um some of the specific models, you know, that were the specific models, you know, that were the specific models, you know, that were that are out there might lean more one that are out there might lean more one that are out there might lean more one direction and not be neutral, you know, direction and not be neutral, you know, direction and not be neutral, you know, kind of how they lean. So, I think kind of how they lean. So, I think kind of how they lean. So, I think that's probably a recognition that just that's probably a recognition that just that's probably a recognition that just because it's technology and it's a model because it's technology and it's a model because it's technology and it's a model doesn't necessarily mean it's completely doesn't necessarily mean it's completely doesn't necessarily mean it's completely neutral, which is a little different neutral, which is a little different neutral, which is a little different variation of the technology of my variation of the technology of my variation of the technology of my perspective on technology.

perspective on technology. perspective on technology. Um but Um but Um but I I'll just start with kind of the I I'll just start with kind of the I I'll just start with kind of the positives. Um you know, most of the time positives. Um you know, most of the time positives. Um you know, most of the time I think it's all about figuring out the I think it's all about figuring out the I think it's all about figuring out the right tool for the right job. right tool for the right job. right tool for the right job. And there are certain things that um the And there are certain things that um the And there are certain things that um the what we're referring to as AI right now, what we're referring to as AI right now, what we're referring to as AI right now, which is obviously a much broader a much which is obviously a much broader a much which is obviously a much broader a much narrower definition than what AI really narrower definition than what AI really narrower definition than what AI really is, but but I think most people refer to is, but but I think most people refer to is, but but I think most people refer to it as GPTs, large language models, the it as GPTs, large language models, the it as GPTs, large language models, the the the more breakthrough that's the the more breakthrough that's the the more breakthrough that's happened in the last few years is where happened in the last few years is where happened in the last few years is where this conversation's really come to the this conversation's really come to the this conversation's really come to the forefront. Prior to that, there's been forefront. Prior to that, there's been forefront. Prior to that, there's been machine learning and all kinds of other machine learning and all kinds of other machine learning and all kinds of other approaches to what has been deemed approaches to what has been deemed approaches to what has been deemed artificial intelligence. But just to artificial intelligence. But just to artificial intelligence. But just to keep it simple, I think the average keep it simple, I think the average keep it simple, I think the average person watching this is probably person watching this is probably person watching this is probably thinking chat GPT or Grok or something thinking chat GPT or Grok or something thinking chat GPT or Grok or something when they're thinking about AI. So, just when they're thinking about AI. So, just when they're thinking about AI. So, just to simplify it, to simplify it, to simplify it, um so on the positive side, um the um so on the positive side, um the um so on the positive side, um the concept of what a transformer or large concept of what a transformer or large concept of what a transformer or large language model or chat like chat GPT language model or chat like chat GPT language model or chat like chat GPT does, uh there's certain things it does does, uh there's certain things it does does, uh there's certain things it does really really well. And um and it's good really really well. And um and it's good really really well. And um and it's good at it's a probabilistic generator at it's a probabilistic generator at it's a probabilistic generator regarding like language. And so, regarding like language. And so, regarding like language. And so, transforming words, transforming transforming words, transforming transforming words, transforming language, taking and saying, language, taking and saying, language, taking and saying, "Give me 10 variations of this sentence, "Give me 10 variations of this sentence, "Give me 10 variations of this sentence, you know, help me edit this document, you know, help me edit this document, you know, help me edit this document, help me summarize this um this paper or help me summarize this um this paper or help me summarize this um this paper or this page of content." Uh it's not this page of content." Uh it's not this page of content." Uh it's not necessarily perfect, but man, it's it's necessarily perfect, but man, it's it's necessarily perfect, but man, it's it's uh uh uh certainly a breakthrough in its ability certainly a breakthrough in its ability certainly a breakthrough in its ability to do that um that wasn't there prior.

to do that um that wasn't there prior. to do that um that wasn't there prior. And so, there are numerous And so, there are numerous And so, there are numerous jobs, functions, content creation, you jobs, functions, content creation, you jobs, functions, content creation, you know, workflows along those things that know, workflows along those things that know, workflows along those things that have have been radically sped up because have have been radically sped up because have have been radically sped up because of the potential of that technology and of the potential of that technology and of the potential of that technology and what it what it can do. what it what it can do. what it what it can do. There's also just a massive amount of There's also just a massive amount of There's also just a massive amount of hype around um hype around um hype around um it being able to do a bunch of things it being able to do a bunch of things it being able to do a bunch of things that I don't think the tool's designed that I don't think the tool's designed that I don't think the tool's designed for. for. for. And and presumption that it's going to And and presumption that it's going to And and presumption that it's going to do all those things well and it's just a do all those things well and it's just a do all those things well and it's just a matter of time and it's just a matter of matter of time and it's just a matter of matter of time and it's just a matter of a bigger investment and there is a power a bigger investment and there is a power a bigger investment and there is a power law all kind of prescribed in 2020 in law all kind of prescribed in 2020 in law all kind of prescribed in 2020 in OpenAI's paper that just said if you OpenAI's paper that just said if you OpenAI's paper that just said if you just put more more GPUs and more more just put more more GPUs and more more just put more more GPUs and more more dollars, you're going to get to this um dollars, you're going to get to this um dollars, you're going to get to this um reality where the AI is just smarter reality where the AI is just smarter reality where the AI is just smarter than has super intelligence and smarter than has super intelligence and smarter than has super intelligence and smarter than all humans and kind of takes over. than all humans and kind of takes over. than all humans and kind of takes over. I I mean, I don't know when people are I I mean, I don't know when people are I I mean, I don't know when people are going to be listening to the podcast and going to be listening to the podcast and going to be listening to the podcast and things can always change, you know, on a things can always change, you know, on a things can always change, you know, on a week-by-week or month-by-month basis on week-by-week or month-by-month basis on week-by-week or month-by-month basis on this. But but so far, 2 and 1/2 years in this. But but so far, 2 and 1/2 years in this. But but so far, 2 and 1/2 years in to that process, two or three years into to that process, two or three years into to that process, two or three years into the process, um it appears that that the process, um it appears that that the process, um it appears that that power law isn't actually playing out the power law isn't actually playing out the power law isn't actually playing out the way that everyone thought it would. Um way that everyone thought it would. Um way that everyone thought it would. Um it's run running into limitations and it's run running into limitations and it's run running into limitations and obstacles that are um proven to be more obstacles that are um proven to be more obstacles that are um proven to be more difficult or not difficult or not difficult or not >> some of the obstacles that AI is facing?

>> some of the obstacles that AI is facing? >> some of the obstacles that AI is facing? >> I think I think you can pretty well see >> I think I think you can pretty well see >> I think I think you can pretty well see I I mean, I'm not an expert expert at I I mean, I'm not an expert expert at I I mean, I'm not an expert expert at this, so I'd be I stand to be corrected this, so I'd be I stand to be corrected this, so I'd be I stand to be corrected by some, but I think there were some by some, but I think there were some by some, but I think there were some bold predictions, you know, and I think bold predictions, you know, and I think bold predictions, you know, and I think you've seen the plateauing of some of you've seen the plateauing of some of you've seen the plateauing of some of the accuracy or effectiveness of this. the accuracy or effectiveness of this. the accuracy or effectiveness of this. You know, they thought, "Well, You know, they thought, "Well, You know, they thought, "Well, hallucinations might just go away at hallucinations might just go away at hallucinations might just go away at some point when it gets big enough and some point when it gets big enough and some point when it gets big enough and the the model's large enough." A lot of the the model's large enough." A lot of the the model's large enough." A lot of the energy now has actually moved seems the energy now has actually moved seems the energy now has actually moved seems like towards efficiency, towards cost like towards efficiency, towards cost like towards efficiency, towards cost reduction, reduction, reduction, um and the gains or improvements on its um and the gains or improvements on its um and the gains or improvements on its performance or accurac- accuracy, if you performance or accurac- accuracy, if you performance or accurac- accuracy, if you want to call it that, have been more want to call it that, have been more want to call it that, have been more limited. Um chat GPT-5's release kind of limited. Um chat GPT-5's release kind of limited. Um chat GPT-5's release kind of I think was I think was I think was uh less than expected, you know, for the uh less than expected, you know, for the uh less than expected, you know, for the >> lot of professionals were like, "That's >> lot of professionals were like, "That's >> lot of professionals were like, "That's it? This is what you've been working on it? This is what you've been working on it? This is what you've been working on for a year?" And it's not to say that for a year?" And it's not to say that for a year?" And it's not to say that there's not some gains and I don't want there's not some gains and I don't want there's not some gains and I don't want to kind of over-generalize it it to kind of over-generalize it it to kind of over-generalize it it completely, but I think if you did if completely, but I think if you did if completely, but I think if you did if you if you were honest and abstract you if you were honest and abstract you if you were honest and abstract yourself from maybe some of the the yourself from maybe some of the the yourself from maybe some of the the minutia of it, the big leap that minutia of it, the big leap that minutia of it, the big leap that happened between chat GPT-3.5 and chat happened between chat GPT-3.5 and chat happened between chat GPT-3.5 and chat GPT-4 was a big leap in terms of what it GPT-4 was a big leap in terms of what it GPT-4 was a big leap in terms of what it was capable of doing. Um the the the was capable of doing. Um the the the was capable of doing. Um the the the iterations since then, including in iterations since then, including in iterations since then, including in involving billions of many many billions involving billions of many many billions involving billions of many many billions of dollars, you know, being spent, to it of dollars, you know, being spent, to it of dollars, you know, being spent, to it seemed to be more incremental than like seemed to be more incremental than like seemed to be more incremental than like 10x kind of leaps, you know, that we're 10x kind of leaps, you know, that we're 10x kind of leaps, you know, that we're seeing. And so, I don't think that's a seeing. And so, I don't think that's a seeing. And so, I don't think that's a stretch to say that, and I and but stretch to say that, and I and but stretch to say that, and I and but someone could maybe argue with me on someone could maybe argue with me on someone could maybe argue with me on that. So, do you think the road to AGI, that. So, do you think the road to AGI, that. So, do you think the road to AGI, artificial general intelligence, or artificial general intelligence, or artificial general intelligence, or superintelligence is maybe a little

superintelligence is maybe a little superintelligence is maybe a little further off? Like Sam Altman is thinking further off? Like Sam Altman is thinking further off? Like Sam Altman is thinking maybe we're here. We don't know. maybe we're here. We don't know. maybe we're here. We don't know. >> I I think it's further out, and um >> I I think it's further out, and um >> I I think it's further out, and um if, you know, and I and I don't know the if, you know, and I and I don't know the if, you know, and I and I don't know the current technology is the pathway current technology is the pathway current technology is the pathway um to it. Oh, that there has to be like um to it. Oh, that there has to be like um to it. Oh, that there has to be like another breakthrough beyond what we've another breakthrough beyond what we've another breakthrough beyond what we've seen. seen. seen. >> that's my that's my sense about it, but >> that's my that's my sense about it, but >> that's my that's my sense about it, but I mean I I could certainly be wrong, but I mean I I could certainly be wrong, but I mean I I could certainly be wrong, but that's that's I think and there's others that's that's I think and there's others that's that's I think and there's others that I think feel that way as well at that I think feel that way as well at that I think feel that way as well at this point. Um but that's not to be said this point. Um but that's not to be said this point. Um but that's not to be said that I think what's important on this is that I think what's important on this is that I think what's important on this is there's so many useful there's so many useful there's so many useful tools and useful examples of where to tools and useful examples of where to tools and useful examples of where to use the tool. And so, we um a UVersion use the tool. And so, we um a UVersion use the tool. And so, we um a UVersion we use that to kind of do several we use that to kind of do several we use that to kind of do several things. Like right now our search on things. Like right now our search on things. Like right now our search on UVersion in the background has um has a UVersion in the background has um has a UVersion in the background has um has a an an AI component to it that is an an AI component to it that is an an AI component to it that is basically helping us understand what the basically helping us understand what the basically helping us understand what the user is searching for. It's not actually user is searching for. It's not actually user is searching for. It's not actually quoting Bible verses. It's not quoting Bible verses. It's not quoting Bible verses. It's not generating a response or text, you know, generating a response or text, you know, generating a response or text, you know, to it. It's actually we're actually just to it. It's actually we're actually just to it. It's actually we're actually just helping point it to resources and Bible helping point it to resources and Bible helping point it to resources and Bible verses, which we're then quoting to the verses, which we're then quoting to the verses, which we're then quoting to the user. And the reason I say that is is a user. And the reason I say that is is a user. And the reason I say that is is a lot of the generative AI models out lot of the generative AI models out lot of the generative AI models out there people don't realize it, but it there people don't realize it, but it there people don't realize it, but it quotes the Bible poorly. Like not quotes the Bible poorly. Like not quotes the Bible poorly. Like not accurately at all. So, if you I I think accurately at all. So, if you I I think accurately at all. So, if you I I think the best model on the most popular Bible the best model on the most popular Bible the best model on the most popular Bible versions quoted at 85% accuracy.

versions quoted at 85% accuracy. versions quoted at 85% accuracy. Really? So, give me an example. Are you Really? So, give me an example. Are you Really? So, give me an example. Are you talking like ChatGPT or Claude that talking like ChatGPT or Claude that talking like ChatGPT or Claude that misquotes the Bible? misquotes the Bible? misquotes the Bible? >> and Claude and those those models are >> and Claude and those those models are >> and Claude and those those models are not effective at accurately I mean, it not effective at accurately I mean, it not effective at accurately I mean, it might be something minor, but it might might be something minor, but it might might be something minor, but it might be something major, but everything to a be something major, but everything to a be something major, but everything to a Bible translator is major. Meaning the Bible translator is major. Meaning the Bible translator is major. Meaning the commas are in places on purpose, and the commas are in places on purpose, and the commas are in places on purpose, and the word choices are intentional. Um so, I word choices are intentional. Um so, I word choices are intentional. Um so, I think we're just a little bit naive if think we're just a little bit naive if think we're just a little bit naive if we kind of feel like, "Oh, it's it's we kind of feel like, "Oh, it's it's we kind of feel like, "Oh, it's it's it's it said that the NIV said this, or it's it said that the NIV said this, or it's it said that the NIV said this, or it said that the NLT said this, and this it said that the NLT said this, and this it said that the NLT said this, and this is a quote from scripture." I think it's is a quote from scripture." I think it's is a quote from scripture." I think it's a bit presumptive to presume that it's a bit presumptive to presume that it's a bit presumptive to presume that it's accurate. Because it's actually accurate. Because it's actually accurate. Because it's actually inaccurate. It's prov- provably inaccurate. It's prov- provably inaccurate. It's prov- provably inaccurate many times. inaccurate many times. inaccurate many times. Um and so, and we're not talking about a Um and so, and we're not talking about a Um and so, and we're not talking about a 1% thing, or a fraction of 1%, you know. 1% thing, or a fraction of 1%, you know. 1% thing, or a fraction of 1%, you know. >> You're talking about 15-ish percent of >> You're talking about 15-ish percent of >> You're talking about 15-ish percent of the time it's the time it's the time it's >> 15% or way worse than that, you know, >> 15% or way worse than that, you know, >> 15% or way worse than that, you know, some cases it's 50% of the time. So, some cases it's 50% of the time. So, some cases it's 50% of the time. So, it's actually not um it's actually not um it's actually not um Yeah, I mean, I I think we're In some Yeah, I mean, I I think we're In some Yeah, I mean, I I think we're In some cases we're asking to do the wrong cases we're asking to do the wrong cases we're asking to do the wrong thing. I mean, it's literally just thing. I mean, it's literally just thing. I mean, it's literally just trying to put together a set of trying to put together a set of trying to put together a set of probabilities that these are the words probabilities that these are the words probabilities that these are the words that are connected together, and if that are connected together, and if that are connected together, and if you're if um a bunch of people on Reddit you're if um a bunch of people on Reddit you're if um a bunch of people on Reddit had misquoted a verse in the Bible, then had misquoted a verse in the Bible, then had misquoted a verse in the Bible, then that's in its training. And and so, it's that's in its training. And and so, it's that's in its training. And and so, it's very likely that it's going to have a very likely that it's going to have a very likely that it's going to have a consensus view of what this verse really consensus view of what this verse really consensus view of what this verse really says based on a whole bunch of says based on a whole bunch of says based on a whole bunch of misquotes, you know, from people. And misquotes, you know, from people. And misquotes, you know, from people. And one of the counterarguments is humans one of the counterarguments is humans one of the counterarguments is humans misquote scripture, you know, misquote scripture, you know, misquote scripture, you know, themselves. So, in fairness, but that's themselves. So, in fairness, but that's themselves. So, in fairness, but that's not a really good counterargument not a really good counterargument not a really good counterargument because we we've grown to appreciate

because we we've grown to appreciate because we we've grown to appreciate technology at doing things consistently, technology at doing things consistently, technology at doing things consistently, or doing things in a predictable way. or doing things in a predictable way. or doing things in a predictable way. And the outputs of AIs like AIs we're And the outputs of AIs like AIs we're And the outputs of AIs like AIs we're talking about it, it's talking about it, it's talking about it, it's non-deterministic. Meaning we don't non-deterministic. Meaning we don't non-deterministic. Meaning we don't actually control it, and we can't actually control it, and we can't actually control it, and we can't control it the way that we think that we control it the way that we think that we control it the way that we think that we can control other technologies. And so, can control other technologies. And so, can control other technologies. And so, the presumption of a leader is, "Well, the presumption of a leader is, "Well, the presumption of a leader is, "Well, my team put together an AI tool, and my team put together an AI tool, and my team put together an AI tool, and they told it to only do this, and to they told it to only do this, and to they told it to only do this, and to stay inside these boundaries, and and stay inside these boundaries, and and stay inside these boundaries, and and so, I feel good because we we told it, so, I feel good because we we told it, so, I feel good because we we told it, 'Yeah, don't do any of that crazy stuff. 'Yeah, don't do any of that crazy stuff. 'Yeah, don't do any of that crazy stuff. Just do this this stuff that I'm Just do this this stuff that I'm Just do this this stuff that I'm prescribing, you know, in our chatbot.'" prescribing, you know, in our chatbot.'" prescribing, you know, in our chatbot.'" That's not actually how it works, and it That's not actually how it works, and it That's not actually how it works, and it doesn't do that. And it doesn't stay doesn't do that. And it doesn't stay doesn't do that. And it doesn't stay inside the boundaries. And inside the boundaries. And inside the boundaries. And >> a lot of people who are developing their >> a lot of people who are developing their >> a lot of people who are developing their own custom GPTs, or building on top of own custom GPTs, or building on top of own custom GPTs, or building on top of some of these infrastructures some of these infrastructures some of these infrastructures are thinking that they programmed truth are thinking that they programmed truth are thinking that they programmed truth into it, but they haven't? Is that what into it, but they haven't? Is that what into it, but they haven't? Is that what you're saying? I'm I'm confident because you're saying? I'm I'm confident because you're saying? I'm I'm confident because I've tested several that are out there I've tested several that are out there I've tested several that are out there that at least as the as of this that at least as the as of this that at least as the as of this recording, recording, recording, um um um I'm August 2025.

I'm August 2025. I'm August 2025. >> that there's there's a lot of things >> that there's there's a lot of things >> that there's there's a lot of things that those tools do that I don't think that those tools do that I don't think that those tools do that I don't think the people that are behind them would the people that are behind them would the people that are behind them would want them to do that come from the the want them to do that come from the the want them to do that come from the the foundation training, you know, the foundation training, you know, the foundation training, you know, the training that's trained on the internet. training that's trained on the internet. training that's trained on the internet. Um and I think there's a sense that you Um and I think there's a sense that you Um and I think there's a sense that you can control it more effectively than can control it more effectively than can control it more effectively than it's being controlled. So, the way I it's being controlled. So, the way I it's being controlled. So, the way I would say it is I think the standard would say it is I think the standard would say it is I think the standard that we have as a church of how we use that we have as a church of how we use that we have as a church of how we use these tools, especially when it's an these tools, especially when it's an these tools, especially when it's an open-ended chat with an open-ended open-ended chat with an open-ended open-ended chat with an open-ended response, you know, which is the use the response, you know, which is the use the response, you know, which is the use the specific use case I'm talking about. Um specific use case I'm talking about. Um specific use case I'm talking about. Um in that scenario, I feel like there's in that scenario, I feel like there's in that scenario, I feel like there's not enough rigor um out there of of of not enough rigor um out there of of of not enough rigor um out there of of of what the standard needs to be to keep what the standard needs to be to keep what the standard needs to be to keep people safe, and to have responses that people safe, and to have responses that people safe, and to have responses that we think are are appropriate, you know, we think are are appropriate, you know, we think are are appropriate, you know, to it. I There are some that are working to it. I There are some that are working to it. I There are some that are working hard to do that. I mean, Glue is a good hard to do that. I mean, Glue is a good hard to do that. I mean, Glue is a good example that I know cuz I work work with example that I know cuz I work work with example that I know cuz I work work with them quite a bit where they are wanting them quite a bit where they are wanting them quite a bit where they are wanting to attain that standard, you know, with to attain that standard, you know, with to attain that standard, you know, with what they're doing, but but it's a lot what they're doing, but but it's a lot what they're doing, but but it's a lot of work, and it's and and it's a process of work, and it's and and it's a process of work, and it's and and it's a process to get there, and I think a lot of stuff to get there, and I think a lot of stuff to get there, and I think a lot of stuff that's out there, in fact, almost that's out there, in fact, almost that's out there, in fact, almost everything I've seen that's actually out everything I've seen that's actually out everything I've seen that's actually out there out there, you know, even paid there out there, you know, even paid there out there, you know, even paid services, services, services, um aren't exercising that rigor. So, we um aren't exercising that rigor. So, we um aren't exercising that rigor. So, we really should aim higher, you know, for really should aim higher, you know, for really should aim higher, you know, for it. And I I'll try to I could give you it. And I I'll try to I could give you it. And I I'll try to I could give you examples, but I I don't know examples, but I I don't know examples, but I I don't know >> Yeah, I was going to say, that was my >> Yeah, I was going to say, that was my >> Yeah, I was going to say, that was my next question. Can you give us a couple next question. Can you give us a couple next question. Can you give us a couple of other examples other than misquoting of other examples other than misquoting of other examples other than misquoting scripture? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um you scripture? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um you scripture? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um you know, one know, one know, one a couple of them I a couple of them I a couple of them I I told them that I was a child, and that I told them that I was a child, and that I told them that I was a child, and that I was um I was um I was um interested in having sex with my

interested in having sex with my interested in having sex with my partner. partner. partner. And I would tell them I'm like 14 years And I would tell them I'm like 14 years And I would tell them I'm like 14 years old, and it gave me a response saying, old, and it gave me a response saying, old, and it gave me a response saying, "Oh, you know, sex before marriage mar- "Oh, you know, sex before marriage mar- "Oh, you know, sex before marriage mar- it should be reserved for marriage." And it should be reserved for marriage." And it should be reserved for marriage." And it gave me kind of a a somewhat it gave me kind of a a somewhat it gave me kind of a a somewhat appropriate appropriate appropriate >> chatbot. >> chatbot. >> chatbot. >> Christian, yeah, Christian. Yeah. >> Christian, yeah, Christian. Yeah. >> Christian, yeah, Christian. Yeah. And um And um And um and then I just said, "Well, I hear all and then I just said, "Well, I hear all and then I just said, "Well, I hear all that, but I really need specific that, but I really need specific that, but I really need specific instructions on how to do it." instructions on how to do it." instructions on how to do it." And and so, I think it was one or two And and so, I think it was one or two And and so, I think it was one or two prompts in, it gave me specific prompts in, it gave me specific prompts in, it gave me specific instructions instructions instructions with details around foreplay and other with details around foreplay and other with details around foreplay and other things. And then it included a verse things. And then it included a verse things. And then it included a verse from Paul in the middle of it. from Paul in the middle of it. from Paul in the middle of it. Misquoted. Misquoted, yeah. And and so, Misquoted. Misquoted, yeah. And and so, Misquoted. Misquoted, yeah. And and so, and I know the people behind that and I know the people behind that and I know the people behind that particular one, and I know that that particular one, and I know that that particular one, and I know that that that that was horrifying cuz I shared that that was horrifying cuz I shared that that was horrifying cuz I shared that with them. that with them. that with them. You know, and um others were were You know, and um others were were You know, and um others were were pointing me to various resources that pointing me to various resources that pointing me to various resources that I'm pretty confident that were never I'm pretty confident that were never I'm pretty confident that were never part of their Christian training, but part of their Christian training, but part of their Christian training, but were part of the things you find on were part of the things you find on were part of the things you find on Reddit. And without kind of going deep Reddit. And without kind of going deep Reddit. And without kind of going deep into all the details on it, just to say into all the details on it, just to say into all the details on it, just to say that this was very easy and very common, that this was very easy and very common, that this was very easy and very common, and I was I did it multiple times on and I was I did it multiple times on and I was I did it multiple times on multiple ones. Um and it's just there multiple ones. Um and it's just there multiple ones. Um and it's just there when it comes to community safety, when it comes to community safety, when it comes to community safety, um a lot of times I think we we at um a lot of times I think we we at um a lot of times I think we we at UVersion we see things at scale on in UVersion we see things at scale on in UVersion we see things at scale on in the faith community, and unfortunately, the faith community, and unfortunately, the faith community, and unfortunately, even with um it's to be in the Bible, we even with um it's to be in the Bible, we even with um it's to be in the Bible, we have people that try to misuse our app, have people that try to misuse our app, have people that try to misuse our app, and we have people that abuse features and we have people that abuse features and we have people that abuse features of the app that we've had to kind of of the app that we've had to kind of of the app that we've had to kind of address over time. And this happens at a

address over time. And this happens at a address over time. And this happens at a certain scale, but if you're inviting certain scale, but if you're inviting certain scale, but if you're inviting people to talk about moral issues and people to talk about moral issues and people to talk about moral issues and questions in life, you're basically questions in life, you're basically questions in life, you're basically creating an invitation to talk about the creating an invitation to talk about the creating an invitation to talk about the conversations that I'm talking about, conversations that I'm talking about, conversations that I'm talking about, and and it's and it's really hard to and and it's and it's really hard to and and it's and it's really hard to know for certain that the output's going know for certain that the output's going know for certain that the output's going to be what it's going to be. Now, all to be what it's going to be. Now, all to be what it's going to be. Now, all that being said, I've been wanting to be that being said, I've been wanting to be that being said, I've been wanting to be a part of the solution, and not just a part of the solution, and not just a part of the solution, and not just part of the problem of complaining about part of the problem of complaining about part of the problem of complaining about problem. And so, I've been working problem. And so, I've been working problem. And so, I've been working really hard with with some, and I I really hard with with some, and I I really hard with with some, and I I mentioned Glue is a good example of an mentioned Glue is a good example of an mentioned Glue is a good example of an organization that's sort of aiming to organization that's sort of aiming to organization that's sort of aiming to try to to achieve that, but there's like try to to achieve that, but there's like try to to achieve that, but there's like some real work involved. It's not a some real work involved. It's not a some real work involved. It's not a trivial thing. It's not like a guy on my trivial thing. It's not like a guy on my trivial thing. It's not like a guy on my team just put together a chatbot team just put together a chatbot team just put together a chatbot yesterday, and and now we're good, and yesterday, and and now we're good, and yesterday, and and now we're good, and we've got this new cool tool that lets we've got this new cool tool that lets we've got this new cool tool that lets us, you know, navigate all this new us, you know, navigate all this new us, you know, navigate all this new these new things. Um to do to do that these new things. Um to do to do that these new things. Um to do to do that kind of open conversation, you know, on kind of open conversation, you know, on kind of open conversation, you know, on your website, or on your app, your website, or on your app, your website, or on your app, um you're going to have to really put in um you're going to have to really put in um you're going to have to really put in some work, I think, to kind of get some work, I think, to kind of get some work, I think, to kind of get there. And it's going to need to be there. And it's going to need to be there. And it's going to need to be tested. And we're and so, we're trying tested. And we're and so, we're trying tested. And we're and so, we're trying to be more solutions-oriented on it. And to be more solutions-oriented on it. And to be more solutions-oriented on it. And I And again, I I'm not naming any I And again, I I'm not naming any I And again, I I'm not naming any particular names or any groups because I particular names or any groups because I particular names or any groups because I don't I don't think that's really don't I don't think that's really don't I don't think that's really important. Um but I do think just important. Um but I do think just important. Um but I do think just generally speaking as ministry leaders, generally speaking as ministry leaders, generally speaking as ministry leaders, um we should just recognize that it's um we should just recognize that it's um we should just recognize that it's not as simple as I prompt engineered not as simple as I prompt engineered not as simple as I prompt engineered ChatGPT to answer like a pastor, and now ChatGPT to answer like a pastor, and now ChatGPT to answer like a pastor, and now I've got a tool that is safe for me to I've got a tool that is safe for me to I've got a tool that is safe for me to put out there and have, you know, the put out there and have, you know, the put out there and have, you know, the community interface with it because I community interface with it because I community interface with it because I told it to be a pastor, and I told it to told it to be a pastor, and I told it to told it to be a pastor, and I told it to have my values. Um it it doesn't it that

have my values. Um it it doesn't it that have my values. Um it it doesn't it that is overly simplistic and naive um to is overly simplistic and naive um to is overly simplistic and naive um to think that you're going to have safe think that you're going to have safe think that you're going to have safe responses, or responses that are even responses, or responses that are even responses, or responses that are even remotely close to what you would hope, remotely close to what you would hope, remotely close to what you would hope, you know, that they would have. And I In you know, that they would have. And I In you know, that they would have. And I In many cases, it's pretty irresponsible many cases, it's pretty irresponsible many cases, it's pretty irresponsible because I I actually think the only because I I actually think the only because I I actually think the only thing worse than having Grok answer thing worse than having Grok answer thing worse than having Grok answer questions about morality questions about morality questions about morality is having the Bible is having the Bible is having the Bible do the same thing using the same flawed do the same thing using the same flawed do the same thing using the same flawed technology. technology. technology. Um it's actually worse to have it come Um it's actually worse to have it come Um it's actually worse to have it come from a trusted source um from a church, from a trusted source um from a church, from a trusted source um from a church, from a ministry. And so, the argument from a ministry. And so, the argument from a ministry. And so, the argument that, "Well, we should do it because if that, "Well, we should do it because if that, "Well, we should do it because if not, they're going to go use these other not, they're going to go use these other not, they're going to go use these other tools to do it." I was like, "I tools to do it." I was like, "I tools to do it." I was like, "I understand the argument, but it's understand the argument, but it's understand the argument, but it's actually worse if it's not better if actually worse if it's not better if actually worse if it's not better if it's not a lot better." Um and and so, it's not a lot better." Um and and so, it's not a lot better." Um and and so, the standard needs to be high with it. the standard needs to be high with it. the standard needs to be high with it. So, I I I've So, I I I've So, I I I've not spoken out a lot about this because not spoken out a lot about this because not spoken out a lot about this because it's only been more recently that I had it's only been more recently that I had it's only been more recently that I had kind of presumed early on we chose not kind of presumed early on we chose not kind of presumed early on we chose not to use the tools in that way because of to use the tools in that way because of to use the tools in that way because of these same concerns. And I kind of these same concerns. And I kind of these same concerns. And I kind of presumed the way the technology curve presumed the way the technology curve presumed the way the technology curve was going that two and a half years in, was going that two and a half years in, was going that two and a half years in, we would have resolved many of these we would have resolved many of these we would have resolved many of these issues, and many of these community issues, and many of these community issues, and many of these community safety things would just sort of be safety things would just sort of be safety things would just sort of be baked in, and surely this is just a a baked in, and surely this is just a a baked in, and surely this is just a a course you know, course you know, course you know, adopt I mean, a curve of technology adopt I mean, a curve of technology adopt I mean, a curve of technology curve that we're on.

curve that we're on. curve that we're on. Um I just don't think that we're Um I just don't think that we're Um I just don't think that we're anywhere closer, honestly, than we were anywhere closer, honestly, than we were anywhere closer, honestly, than we were 2 and 1/2 years ago. And and we've 2 and 1/2 years ago. And and we've 2 and 1/2 years ago. And and we've almost then mentally moved past it where almost then mentally moved past it where almost then mentally moved past it where we're just saying, "Oh, now like we're just saying, "Oh, now like we're just saying, "Oh, now like everybody does it. We just kind of we everybody does it. We just kind of we everybody does it. We just kind of we can do it, too." And it's just I think can do it, too." And it's just I think can do it, too." And it's just I think it's like way too simplistic way of it's like way too simplistic way of it's like way too simplistic way of thinking about it. thinking about it. thinking about it. Yeah, it's funny. It's Yeah, it's funny. It's Yeah, it's funny. It's You know, I want to go a little bit You know, I want to go a little bit You know, I want to go a little bit deeper on the hidden dangers of AI that deeper on the hidden dangers of AI that deeper on the hidden dangers of AI that a lot of us aren't thinking about, but a lot of us aren't thinking about, but a lot of us aren't thinking about, but you know, I'm thinking about I think the you know, I'm thinking about I think the you know, I'm thinking about I think the obvious hallucinations obvious hallucinations obvious hallucinations that we saw in 2023 maybe are gone where that we saw in 2023 maybe are gone where that we saw in 2023 maybe are gone where we're like, "That's not right." But like we're like, "That's not right." But like we're like, "That's not right." But like I I use it for book summaries on the I I use it for book summaries on the I I use it for book summaries on the regular now, and I was feeding um regular now, and I was feeding um regular now, and I was feeding um New York Times best-selling author's New York Times best-selling author's New York Times best-selling author's book book book into chat to ask it for a summary. into chat to ask it for a summary. into chat to ask it for a summary. And it gave me a completely different And it gave me a completely different And it gave me a completely different book. book. book. And I'm like, "This isn't the book." And And I'm like, "This isn't the book." And And I'm like, "This isn't the book." And "Oh, you're right. You're right. You're "Oh, you're right. You're right. You're "Oh, you're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. Here's the right. You're right. Here's the right. You're right. Here's the summary." Right. Like, "This isn't the summary." Right. Like, "This isn't the summary." Right. Like, "This isn't the book, either." "Oh, you're right. You're book, either." "Oh, you're right. You're book, either." "Oh, you're right. You're right. You're right." And I don't know right. You're right." And I don't know right. You're right." And I don't know what it was. It was having a bad day or what it was. It was having a bad day or what it was. It was having a bad day or whatever, but like Yeah. it wasn't even whatever, but like Yeah. it wasn't even whatever, but like Yeah. it wasn't even close to what was in the book. And you close to what was in the book. And you close to what was in the book. And you know, this wasn't the Bible, but this know, this wasn't the Bible, but this know, this wasn't the Bible, but this was a New York Times best-selling author was a New York Times best-selling author was a New York Times best-selling author book by a major publisher, and it had no book by a major publisher, and it had no book by a major publisher, and it had no clue what was happening. It was Dan clue what was happening. It was Dan clue what was happening. It was Dan Heath's book. So Well, you're you're Heath's book. So Well, you're you're Heath's book. So Well, you're you're like I I mean, you said the obvious like I I mean, you said the obvious like I I mean, you said the obvious hallucinations are there. That's hallucinations are there. That's hallucinations are there. That's actually I don't know if that's actually actually I don't know if that's actually actually I don't know if that's actually accurate, either, because the current accurate, either, because the current accurate, either, because the current the best models out there right now have the best models out there right now have the best models out there right now have like an 8 to 9% hallucination rate.

like an 8 to 9% hallucination rate. like an 8 to 9% hallucination rate. And it's not it's not um it's not evenly And it's not it's not um it's not evenly And it's not it's not um it's not evenly distributed, which means that you're not distributed, which means that you're not distributed, which means that you're not going to have like one out of every 10 going to have like one out of every 10 going to have like one out of every 10 answers that's that's hallucination. On answers that's that's hallucination. On answers that's that's hallucination. On certain areas, you might have five out certain areas, you might have five out certain areas, you might have five out of 10 times, and other areas, you might of 10 times, and other areas, you might of 10 times, and other areas, you might have one out of 10 times, you know, or have one out of 10 times, you know, or have one out of 10 times, you know, or or zero or you know, one out of 100 or zero or you know, one out of 100 or zero or you know, one out of 100 times. And so so it that's part of the times. And so so it that's part of the times. And so so it that's part of the challenge. Like I asked ChatGPT 5 what challenge. Like I asked ChatGPT 5 what challenge. Like I asked ChatGPT 5 what my wife's name was, and and it's on my wife's name was, and and it's on my wife's name was, and and it's on Wikipedia, I believe, or someplace. And Wikipedia, I believe, or someplace. And Wikipedia, I believe, or someplace. And so it answered Bobby Grunewald's wife's so it answered Bobby Grunewald's wife's so it answered Bobby Grunewald's wife's name is Melissa Grunewald. I said, name is Melissa Grunewald. I said, name is Melissa Grunewald. I said, "Great. What are the names of What are "Great. What are the names of What are "Great. What are the names of What are the names of my kids?" the names of my kids?" the names of my kids?" And it says, "Bobby and Melissa And it says, "Bobby and Melissa And it says, "Bobby and Melissa Grunewald's kids are Beckham Grunewald's kids are Beckham Grunewald's kids are Beckham Cash." So it it had like four names that Cash." So it it had like four names that Cash." So it it had like four names that didn't have not my kids' names at all. didn't have not my kids' names at all. didn't have not my kids' names at all. It had four, though. That's interesting. It had four, though. That's interesting. It had four, though. That's interesting. And I said, "That's not true." And it And I said, "That's not true." And it And I said, "That's not true." And it goes, "Oh, you're absolutely right. I goes, "Oh, you're absolutely right. I goes, "Oh, you're absolutely right. I don't know Bobby Grunewald's kids' don't know Bobby Grunewald's kids' don't know Bobby Grunewald's kids' names." You know, and it was very names." You know, and it was very names." You know, and it was very absolute, of course, and then it wasn't. absolute, of course, and then it wasn't. absolute, of course, and then it wasn't. More More concerning is is you know, I'm More More concerning is is you know, I'm More More concerning is is you know, I'm a a pilot and um a a pilot and um a a pilot and um and I asked ChatGPT just as a test. I and I asked ChatGPT just as a test. I and I asked ChatGPT just as a test. I said, "I want you to answer as an expert said, "I want you to answer as an expert said, "I want you to answer as an expert mechanic airplane mechanic."

mechanic airplane mechanic." mechanic airplane mechanic." And and and I said, "I'm a pilot, and I And and and I said, "I'm a pilot, and I And and and I said, "I'm a pilot, and I need to know the tire pressure of a need to know the tire pressure of a need to know the tire pressure of a specific model of plane, the main wheel specific model of plane, the main wheel specific model of plane, the main wheel tire pressure." And it comes back and tire pressure." And it comes back and tire pressure." And it comes back and gives me this nice dialogue about all of gives me this nice dialogue about all of gives me this nice dialogue about all of the reasons why tire pressure is the reasons why tire pressure is the reasons why tire pressure is important as an expert mechanic, you important as an expert mechanic, you important as an expert mechanic, you know, you need to make sure you check it know, you need to make sure you check it know, you need to make sure you check it at these points. And all that was valid at these points. And all that was valid at these points. And all that was valid and true. And it gets down and says, and true. And it gets down and says, and true. And it gets down and says, "The main wheel tire pressure of this "The main wheel tire pressure of this "The main wheel tire pressure of this particular model of airplane is 65 particular model of airplane is 65 particular model of airplane is 65 pounds per square inch, PSI." pounds per square inch, PSI." pounds per square inch, PSI." Well, I happen to know that it's 105, Well, I happen to know that it's 105, Well, I happen to know that it's 105, not 65. not 65. not 65. And so I mean, this is like if you're And so I mean, this is like if you're And so I mean, this is like if you're counting on it to be factual. So I went counting on it to be factual. So I went counting on it to be factual. So I went and said I tried Perplexity because, you and said I tried Perplexity because, you and said I tried Perplexity because, you know, Perplexity has site sources and know, Perplexity has site sources and know, Perplexity has site sources and all this. And Perplexity had Perplexity all this. And Perplexity had Perplexity all this. And Perplexity had Perplexity came back with 68 PSI with a source. came back with 68 PSI with a source. came back with 68 PSI with a source. And you're thinking, normally when you And you're thinking, normally when you And you're thinking, normally when you see a source, you think, "I don't need see a source, you think, "I don't need see a source, you think, "I don't need to click on the source because it to click on the source because it to click on the source because it obviously found it." But it was a obviously found it." But it was a obviously found it." But it was a different airplane. different airplane. different airplane. And and so it's just I share those And and so it's just I share those And and so it's just I share those examples not because I'm trying to say, examples not because I'm trying to say, examples not because I'm trying to say, "Man, these tools are just so dumb.

"Man, these tools are just so dumb. "Man, these tools are just so dumb. Nobody should ever use them. They're not Nobody should ever use them. They're not Nobody should ever use them. They're not worthwhile. They don't do anything worthwhile. They don't do anything worthwhile. They don't do anything right." It's just right." It's just right." It's just right tool for the right job. If you're right tool for the right job. If you're right tool for the right job. If you're counting on it to give you factual counting on it to give you factual counting on it to give you factual information about something that's information about something that's information about something that's important, you know, it's probably not important, you know, it's probably not important, you know, it's probably not the right tool, you know, for it, the right tool, you know, for it, the right tool, you know, for it, because that's not something that can be because that's not something that can be because that's not something that can be counted on. counted on. counted on. And and maybe the technology matures at And and maybe the technology matures at And and maybe the technology matures at a at a way that gets there. I'm not so a at a way that gets there. I'm not so a at a way that gets there. I'm not so certain that it doesn't need to be a certain that it doesn't need to be a certain that it doesn't need to be a different technology to be able to different technology to be able to different technology to be able to accomplish what people hope that it will accomplish what people hope that it will accomplish what people hope that it will fully accomplish. But fully accomplish. But fully accomplish. But that being said, there's so many other that being said, there's so many other that being said, there's so many other useful use cases, and we do use them. useful use cases, and we do use them. useful use cases, and we do use them. And so I don't want to make people And so I don't want to make people And so I don't want to make people believe that we're anti-AI because believe that we're anti-AI because believe that we're anti-AI because there's so many things we think it are there's so many things we think it are there's so many things we think it are helpful. But when it comes to kind of an helpful. But when it comes to kind of an helpful. But when it comes to kind of an open-ended conversation about the Bible, open-ended conversation about the Bible, open-ended conversation about the Bible, about faith, about those things, about faith, about those things, about faith, about those things, um until there's a threshold of of um um until there's a threshold of of um um until there's a threshold of of um you know, you know, you know, safety that that we can ensure, you safety that that we can ensure, you safety that that we can ensure, you know, with it, it's something that we've know, with it, it's something that we've know, with it, it's something that we've avoided, and that's that's the reason avoided, and that's that's the reason avoided, and that's that's the reason why. Yeah. why. Yeah. why. Yeah. What are some helpful uses you see for What are some helpful uses you see for What are some helpful uses you see for AI?

AI? AI? Um I I think it's Um I I think it's Um I I think it's helpful to spark creativity um because helpful to spark creativity um because helpful to spark creativity um because it it can create a lot of like said, it it can create a lot of like said, it it can create a lot of like said, give you a lot of variations on ideas. give you a lot of variations on ideas. give you a lot of variations on ideas. It can kind of get you started down It can kind of get you started down It can kind of get you started down thought processes. It is relatively good thought processes. It is relatively good thought processes. It is relatively good at several coding functions, not not at several coding functions, not not at several coding functions, not not entirely replacing engineers to code entirely replacing engineers to code entirely replacing engineers to code because we we keep hiring more and more because we we keep hiring more and more because we we keep hiring more and more engineers. engineers. engineers. But in doing code review, kind of But in doing code review, kind of But in doing code review, kind of helping helping helping people pull common routines together. people pull common routines together. people pull common routines together. And it's because coding is a different And it's because coding is a different And it's because coding is a different language, right? So you it's it's just language, right? So you it's it's just language, right? So you it's it's just it's good at it's good at it's good at being able to communicate in English and being able to communicate in English and being able to communicate in English and have it do things in whatever language, have it do things in whatever language, have it do things in whatever language, you know, that you're coding at. So you know, that you're coding at. So you know, that you're coding at. So we've we've have that implemented and we've we've have that implemented and we've we've have that implemented and it's actually accelerated several it's actually accelerated several it's actually accelerated several processes that we have on our processes that we have on our processes that we have on our engineering team. So those are those are engineering team. So those are those are engineering team. So those are those are great use cases. great use cases. great use cases. Um we've already been using AI, just not Um we've already been using AI, just not Um we've already been using AI, just not just not large language models until just not large language models until just not large language models until recently to help us with editing recently to help us with editing recently to help us with editing documents, spell check, you know, these documents, spell check, you know, these documents, spell check, you know, these types of functions.

types of functions. types of functions. >> Like a Grammarly type thing? >> Like a Grammarly type thing? >> Like a Grammarly type thing? >> Like the Grammarly, yeah, type function. >> Like the Grammarly, yeah, type function. >> Like the Grammarly, yeah, type function. Um and I mean, there's there's probably Um and I mean, there's there's probably Um and I mean, there's there's probably many more that I'm not, you know, able many more that I'm not, you know, able many more that I'm not, you know, able to go through comprehensively, but those to go through comprehensively, but those to go through comprehensively, but those are probably the the low-hanging fruit are probably the the low-hanging fruit are probably the the low-hanging fruit opportunities. Uh content creation can opportunities. Uh content creation can opportunities. Uh content creation can be, but I but I there's some caution be, but I but I there's some caution be, but I but I there's some caution there even for ministries in that I've there even for ministries in that I've there even for ministries in that I've watched my 17-year-old son, who actually watched my 17-year-old son, who actually watched my 17-year-old son, who actually is really, really smart about AI. I is really, really smart about AI. I is really, really smart about AI. I mean, he actually has an AI job and gets mean, he actually has an AI job and gets mean, he actually has an AI job and gets paid paid paid He makes a lot more money than I made as He makes a lot more money than I made as He makes a lot more money than I made as a college graduate at 17 years old um to a college graduate at 17 years old um to a college graduate at 17 years old um to be able to cuz he's good at coding, be able to cuz he's good at coding, be able to cuz he's good at coding, programming, testing models. He can do programming, testing models. He can do programming, testing models. He can do all this. But he is completely turned all this. But he is completely turned all this. But he is completely turned off to AI-generated content. And so if off to AI-generated content. And so if off to AI-generated content. And so if you're watching YouTube and he sees you're watching YouTube and he sees you're watching YouTube and he sees something and he can tell that it's an something and he can tell that it's an something and he can tell that it's an AI-generated video or the audio track is AI-generated video or the audio track is AI-generated video or the audio track is AI-generated, he's just kind of skips AI-generated, he's just kind of skips AI-generated, he's just kind of skips it, and he doesn't have it, and he doesn't have it, and he doesn't have >> Has he got like spidey senses He has He >> Has he got like spidey senses He has He >> Has he got like spidey senses He has He has this amazing like has this amazing like has this amazing like I'd call him like AI-native ability to I'd call him like AI-native ability to I'd call him like AI-native ability to um discern that and to see it. And for um discern that and to see it. And for um discern that and to see it. And for him, it's pretty simple and quick. Like him, it's pretty simple and quick. Like him, it's pretty simple and quick. Like he he knows. Now, I don't know how many he he knows. Now, I don't know how many he he knows. Now, I don't know how many of his generation carry the same of his generation carry the same of his generation carry the same ability, but but you know, that's been ability, but but you know, that's been ability, but but you know, that's been true if you look at different true if you look at different true if you look at different generations with technology adoption. Um generations with technology adoption. Um generations with technology adoption. Um they you know, natives to the technology they you know, natives to the technology they you know, natives to the technology tend to have these sort of savant-like tend to have these sort of savant-like tend to have these sort of savant-like capabilities where you're like going, capabilities where you're like going, capabilities where you're like going, "How do How can they just know how to "How do How can they just know how to "How do How can they just know how to use this? Or know how know how it use this? Or know how know how it use this? Or know how know how it works?" And I think there's something works?" And I think there's something works?" And I think there's something there where they've grown up inundated there where they've grown up inundated there where they've grown up inundated with AI-generated content in just a

with AI-generated content in just a with AI-generated content in just a short period of time, and they've had to short period of time, and they've had to short period of time, and they've had to kind of build their ability to discern kind of build their ability to discern kind of build their ability to discern that because that's how they That's one that because that's how they That's one that because that's how they That's one of the gauges for trust, you know, that of the gauges for trust, you know, that of the gauges for trust, you know, that they have, you know, with the content. they have, you know, with the content. they have, you know, with the content. Does Does Does >> yeah. your son, I'm not asking you to >> yeah. your son, I'm not asking you to >> yeah. your son, I'm not asking you to speak for him, or you can generalize speak for him, or you can generalize speak for him, or you can generalize this question, but do you think there this question, but do you think there this question, but do you think there will be a higher premium on will be a higher premium on will be a higher premium on authenticated human authenticated human authenticated human content? Like would that be something content? Like would that be something content? Like would that be something your son gravitates to more, like a film your son gravitates to more, like a film your son gravitates to more, like a film actually made by humans rather than actually made by humans rather than actually made by humans rather than AI-generated? AI-generated? AI-generated? Yeah, I he seems to seek out Yeah, I he seems to seek out Yeah, I he seems to seek out human-generated content. Um so human-generated content. Um so human-generated content. Um so I First of all, I think there's I First of all, I think there's I First of all, I think there's you know, it's pretty easy to you know, it's pretty easy to you know, it's pretty easy to conceptually understand this at kind of conceptually understand this at kind of conceptually understand this at kind of a an economic level um or just a a a an economic level um or just a a a an economic level um or just a a principle level, which is principle level, which is principle level, which is AI makes it possible to generate content AI makes it possible to generate content AI makes it possible to generate content quickly and to mass-produce the quickly and to mass-produce the quickly and to mass-produce the generation of content. It's one of the generation of content. It's one of the generation of content. It's one of the use cases that's the most common use use cases that's the most common use use cases that's the most common use case today is generating videos and case today is generating videos and case today is generating videos and content, and and you can program it and content, and and you can program it and content, and and you can program it and and and code it in such a way that it and and code it in such a way that it and and code it in such a way that it could just output way more video content could just output way more video content could just output way more video content than any human could possibly do in any than any human could possibly do in any than any human could possibly do in any short period of time.

short period of time. short period of time. Um so if you extrapolate that out and Um so if you extrapolate that out and Um so if you extrapolate that out and just say, "Okay, that's just kind of the just say, "Okay, that's just kind of the just say, "Okay, that's just kind of the trajectory we're we're on," then human trajectory we're we're on," then human trajectory we're we're on," then human content's going to become increasingly content's going to become increasingly content's going to become increasingly more rare. We can't like out We can't more rare. We can't like out We can't more rare. We can't like out We can't out-content produce the machines, all out-content produce the machines, all out-content produce the machines, all right? It's just not not functionally I right? It's just not not functionally I right? It's just not not functionally I mean, like the mathematically, it's just mean, like the mathematically, it's just mean, like the mathematically, it's just not going to happen. not going to happen. not going to happen. So if it becomes increasingly more rare, So if it becomes increasingly more rare, So if it becomes increasingly more rare, then in theory, it should become then in theory, it should become then in theory, it should become increasingly more valuable. increasingly more valuable. increasingly more valuable. You know, Yeah. So then You know, Yeah. So then You know, Yeah. So then >> Scarcity creates value. So then getting >> Scarcity creates value. So then getting >> Scarcity creates value. So then getting back to the kind of what we do, you back to the kind of what we do, you back to the kind of what we do, you know, I think something like the Bible, know, I think something like the Bible, know, I think something like the Bible, which is something that has been which is something that has been which is something that has been carefully moved from generation to carefully moved from generation to carefully moved from generation to generation, you know, um for generation, you know, um for generation, you know, um for many, many generations, thousands of many, many generations, thousands of many, many generations, thousands of years. Yeah. Um we can look at that. It years. Yeah. Um we can look at that. It years. Yeah. Um we can look at that. It existed before existed before existed before all of this time, before the internet, all of this time, before the internet, all of this time, before the internet, before AI. before AI. before AI. It becomes like a uniquely trusted It becomes like a uniquely trusted It becomes like a uniquely trusted source because we've got now a source because we've got now a source because we've got now a generation people that are not sure what generation people that are not sure what generation people that are not sure what they can trust. You know, like the they can trust. You know, like the they can trust. You know, like the content being produced. We already It's content being produced. We already It's content being produced. We already It's not just hallucination. Sometimes it's not just hallucination. Sometimes it's not just hallucination. Sometimes it's deceptive, intentionally deceptive, you deceptive, intentionally deceptive, you deceptive, intentionally deceptive, you know, creations of content that aren't know, creations of content that aren't know, creations of content that aren't just a anomaly created by the machine, just a anomaly created by the machine, just a anomaly created by the machine, but actually by humans trying to but actually by humans trying to but actually by humans trying to deceive, you know, through the content.

deceive, you know, through the content. deceive, you know, through the content. We see that all I mean, we've seen many We see that all I mean, we've seen many We see that all I mean, we've seen many videos, right? It's just not a real videos, right? It's just not a real videos, right? It's just not a real video. That never happened, you know. So video. That never happened, you know. So video. That never happened, you know. So we're all we're all of a sudden having we're all we're all of a sudden having we're all we're all of a sudden having to build this filter built into all of to build this filter built into all of to build this filter built into all of us that just says, "I have to kind of us that just says, "I have to kind of us that just says, "I have to kind of presume that this might not be true when presume that this might not be true when presume that this might not be true when I watch it." I watch it." I watch it." And then I have to kind of try to figure And then I have to kind of try to figure And then I have to kind of try to figure out if it is true or not true, which is out if it is true or not true, which is out if it is true or not true, which is a new new kind of function, you know, a new new kind of function, you know, a new new kind of function, you know, for us to have to do. for us to have to do. for us to have to do. Well, Well, Well, it's no surprise, then, that I think it's no surprise, then, that I think it's no surprise, then, that I think people are turning to the Bible because people are turning to the Bible because people are turning to the Bible because when you're looking for something you when you're looking for something you when you're looking for something you can count on to be true, it predated all can count on to be true, it predated all can count on to be true, it predated all this. And not only that, but it was it's this. And not only that, but it was it's this. And not only that, but it was it's a unique there's nothing else like it a unique there's nothing else like it a unique there's nothing else like it that's been carefully moved from that's been carefully moved from that's been carefully moved from generation to generation. This November generation to generation. This November generation to generation. This November at the Museum of the Bible they're going at the Museum of the Bible they're going at the Museum of the Bible they're going to have the Dead Sea Scrolls on display to have the Dead Sea Scrolls on display to have the Dead Sea Scrolls on display at the Museum of the Bible. You can go at the Museum of the Bible. You can go at the Museum of the Bible. You can go and look at the content of the Dead Sea and look at the content of the Dead Sea and look at the content of the Dead Sea Scrolls and confirm its consistency to Scrolls and confirm its consistency to Scrolls and confirm its consistency to the book that we're reading today. And the book that we're reading today. And the book that we're reading today. And and the fact that you can do that and the fact that you can do that and the fact that you can do that thousands of years, you know, prior just thousands of years, you know, prior just thousands of years, you know, prior just gives a different level of trust, right? gives a different level of trust, right? gives a different level of trust, right? That you can you can have in that in That you can you can have in that in That you can you can have in that in that form of content. So, I don't that form of content. So, I don't that form of content. So, I don't actually think I think actually the actually think I think actually the actually think I think actually the Bible in many ways this is its moment Bible in many ways this is its moment Bible in many ways this is its moment like where it's the antidote to the like where it's the antidote to the like where it's the antidote to the problem. It literally is if you're problem. It literally is if you're problem. It literally is if you're saying how can I find something to saying how can I find something to saying how can I find something to trust? You know, it's like well, I trust? You know, it's like well, I trust? You know, it's like well, I should I could look at that. I mean, should I could look at that. I mean, should I could look at that. I mean, people trusted it for thousands of people trusted it for thousands of people trusted it for thousands of years. And and and it's just it's almost years. And and and it's just it's almost years. And and and it's just it's almost like that's I mean, to me it's very like that's I mean, to me it's very like that's I mean, to me it's very exciting actually because of the time exciting actually because of the time exciting actually because of the time time that we're living in. I feel like time that we're living in. I feel like time that we're living in. I feel like AI kind of sets up the Bible for AI kind of sets up the Bible for AI kind of sets up the Bible for success.

success. success. But it's also why we as a ministry are But it's also why we as a ministry are But it's also why we as a ministry are are thoughtful about our use of AI are thoughtful about our use of AI are thoughtful about our use of AI because if we if we intertwine it because if we if we intertwine it because if we if we intertwine it too much, you know, where it's hard to too much, you know, where it's hard to too much, you know, where it's hard to distinguish what's the Bible and what's distinguish what's the Bible and what's distinguish what's the Bible and what's AI or we get too too casual, you know, AI or we get too too casual, you know, AI or we get too too casual, you know, with that process, then we could find with that process, then we could find with that process, then we could find ourselves inadvertently putting the ourselves inadvertently putting the ourselves inadvertently putting the Bible in the same box. I mean, actually Bible in the same box. I mean, actually Bible in the same box. I mean, actually it's unique right now and it needs to I it's unique right now and it needs to I it's unique right now and it needs to I think stay in that box of like this think stay in that box of like this think stay in that box of like this >> the Apostle Paul not Paul-ish. Yeah. No, >> the Apostle Paul not Paul-ish. Yeah. No, >> the Apostle Paul not Paul-ish. Yeah. No, you just you want to be able to trust you just you want to be able to trust you just you want to be able to trust it, you know, and know that it can be it, you know, and know that it can be it, you know, and know that it can be trusted. So, that's part of the reason trusted. So, that's part of the reason trusted. So, that's part of the reason why we've set why we've set why we've set a somewhat cautious but kind of high bar a somewhat cautious but kind of high bar a somewhat cautious but kind of high bar especially as it relates to scripture especially as it relates to scripture especially as it relates to scripture itself and how we're quoting scripture. itself and how we're quoting scripture. itself and how we're quoting scripture. Our standard is 100% like scripture will Our standard is 100% like scripture will Our standard is 100% like scripture will always be 100% accurate and true to the always be 100% accurate and true to the always be 100% accurate and true to the translation, you know, that that it's translation, you know, that that it's translation, you know, that that it's not been modified in some way in not been modified in some way in not been modified in some way in between. So, we have to ensure that that between. So, we have to ensure that that between. So, we have to ensure that that happens even if there's some kind of AI happens even if there's some kind of AI happens even if there's some kind of AI in use for some function. We got to make in use for some function. We got to make in use for some function. We got to make sure scripture's never misquoted. So, sure scripture's never misquoted. So, sure scripture's never misquoted. So, those are just examples of standards those are just examples of standards those are just examples of standards that we think are important that we think are important that we think are important and and why.

and and why. and and why. I'm going to give you the last word, but I'm going to give you the last word, but I'm going to give you the last word, but just a a quick note to content creators. just a a quick note to content creators. just a a quick note to content creators. I still write all of my content and I'm I still write all of my content and I'm I still write all of my content and I'm sure that every word at least is mine. sure that every word at least is mine. sure that every word at least is mine. It's not infallible like scripture, but It's not infallible like scripture, but It's not infallible like scripture, but at least it comes from me. And I use AI, at least it comes from me. And I use AI, at least it comes from me. And I use AI, but a couple months ago just for fun but a couple months ago just for fun but a couple months ago just for fun Bobby I thought Bobby I thought Bobby I thought going to see whether it generates like a going to see whether it generates like a going to see whether it generates like a typical YouTube or blog post type thing typical YouTube or blog post type thing typical YouTube or blog post type thing I would write and it knows my voice. And I would write and it knows my voice. And I would write and it knows my voice. And I asked it to write it from scratch, I asked it to write it from scratch, I asked it to write it from scratch, which I rarely do. which I rarely do. which I rarely do. And I was blown away. I looked at it and And I was blown away. I looked at it and And I was blown away. I looked at it and I'm like this is really good. Like this I'm like this is really good. Like this I'm like this is really good. Like this is what I would write and look at the is what I would write and look at the is what I would write and look at the sources. We've got Barna, we got sources. We've got Barna, we got sources. We've got Barna, we got Lifeway, we've got Pew Research, we got Lifeway, we've got Pew Research, we got Lifeway, we've got Pew Research, we got all Oh, this is amazing. And I thought all Oh, this is amazing. And I thought all Oh, this is amazing. And I thought I'm going to click through all the I'm going to click through all the I'm going to click through all the sources. sources. sources. Every single one of the links look Every single one of the links look Every single one of the links look legit. barna.com/ you know, whatever legit. barna.com/ you know, whatever legit. barna.com/ you know, whatever whatever whatever. All fake. All fake. whatever whatever. All fake. All fake. whatever whatever. All fake. All fake. Couldn't couldn't verify it even quoted Couldn't couldn't verify it even quoted Couldn't couldn't verify it even quoted me. And the link led nowhere. me. And the link led nowhere. me. And the link led nowhere. And I'm like this is just garbage. It And I'm like this is just garbage. It And I'm like this is just garbage. It appears real. And listen, I use it to appears real. And listen, I use it to appears real. And listen, I use it to critique, to learn, to you know, grow, critique, to learn, to you know, grow, critique, to learn, to you know, grow, but you've got to have those critical but you've got to have those critical but you've got to have those critical eyes and I think this has been a really eyes and I think this has been a really eyes and I think this has been a really good wake-up call.

good wake-up call. good wake-up call. I think the church is starting to use AI I think the church is starting to use AI I think the church is starting to use AI a lot more than we have and I think we a lot more than we have and I think we a lot more than we have and I think we have to be aware of the fact I learned have to be aware of the fact I learned have to be aware of the fact I learned some things that 15% error rate, that's some things that 15% error rate, that's some things that 15% error rate, that's that's a high error rate. Yeah. And and that's a high error rate. Yeah. And and that's a high error rate. Yeah. And and I think it's just, you know, when I think it's just, you know, when I think it's just, you know, when something's new, something's new, something's new, um um um you know, I'm I'm the type of person you know, I'm I'm the type of person you know, I'm I'm the type of person that is a very much an early adopter. that is a very much an early adopter. that is a very much an early adopter. So, my personality type there's no So, my personality type there's no So, my personality type there's no question like I'm one trying new question like I'm one trying new question like I'm one trying new technology quickly. Um technology quickly. Um technology quickly. Um I think we have to work harder to turn I think we have to work harder to turn I think we have to work harder to turn sort of understand the limitations, you sort of understand the limitations, you sort of understand the limitations, you know, of the technology that we have. Um know, of the technology that we have. Um know, of the technology that we have. Um we're it's a new kind of thing for us we're it's a new kind of thing for us we're it's a new kind of thing for us because we have become so trusting of because we have become so trusting of because we have become so trusting of technology because in many ways technology because in many ways technology because in many ways technology's been a good thing. It's technology's been a good thing. It's technology's been a good thing. It's helped us accomplish and do a lot of helped us accomplish and do a lot of helped us accomplish and do a lot of things and we trust it to do what we things and we trust it to do what we things and we trust it to do what we think it's going to do, you know, when think it's going to do, you know, when think it's going to do, you know, when we ask it to. So, this new wave of we ask it to. So, this new wave of we ask it to. So, this new wave of technology isn't bad in my opinion technology isn't bad in my opinion technology isn't bad in my opinion inherently bad. I feel like inherently bad. I feel like inherently bad. I feel like it just we we have to be more discerning it just we we have to be more discerning it just we we have to be more discerning with how we use it. And the importance with how we use it. And the importance with how we use it. And the importance of doing what you just did. Like it of doing what you just did. Like it of doing what you just did. Like it generated a bunch of stuff that sounded generated a bunch of stuff that sounded generated a bunch of stuff that sounded amazing and sounded like it was in your amazing and sounded like it was in your amazing and sounded like it was in your voice, but it took you a human in the voice, but it took you a human in the voice, but it took you a human in the loop right now to kind of go through and loop right now to kind of go through and loop right now to kind of go through and confirm that the actual facts were confirm that the actual facts were confirm that the actual facts were correct and the things were right. It correct and the things were right. It correct and the things were right. It might have saved you time at the end of might have saved you time at the end of might have saved you time at the end of the day if you chose to use that, you the day if you chose to use that, you the day if you chose to use that, you know, know, know, >> really garbage. It would have been. But >> really garbage. It would have been. But >> really garbage. It would have been. But but but nonetheless, it looks amazing.

but but nonetheless, it looks amazing. but but nonetheless, it looks amazing. We just got to be careful though, right? We just got to be careful though, right? We just got to be careful though, right? That's the point. That's the point. That's the point. >> really do. You really you got to verify >> really do. You really you got to verify >> really do. You really you got to verify verify verify. verify verify. verify verify. >> Yeah. And and I don't I think that's a >> Yeah. And and I don't I think that's a >> Yeah. And and I don't I think that's a new thing that we're not necessarily new thing that we're not necessarily new thing that we're not necessarily used to. We're just really used to just used to. We're just really used to just used to. We're just really used to just trusting and like saying I put this trusting and like saying I put this trusting and like saying I put this input in and I got this result. My input in and I got this result. My input in and I got this result. My calculator tells me what the result is calculator tells me what the result is calculator tells me what the result is when I put the numbers in and it's right when I put the numbers in and it's right when I put the numbers in and it's right and I know it's right. And I know I I and I know it's right. And I know I I and I know it's right. And I know I I just believe it's right. Like I don't just believe it's right. Like I don't just believe it's right. Like I don't know if the numbers really multiply or know if the numbers really multiply or know if the numbers really multiply or not. not. not. >> Um but but that's not necessarily how >> Um but but that's not necessarily how >> Um but but that's not necessarily how this new technology works. And so, you this new technology works. And so, you this new technology works. And so, you kind of have to find the right kind of have to find the right kind of have to find the right applications for it and be cautious and applications for it and be cautious and applications for it and be cautious and not get caught up in the FOMO. Um that's not get caught up in the FOMO. Um that's not get caught up in the FOMO. Um that's that's probably I think one of the that's probably I think one of the that's probably I think one of the biggest challenges that I have that I biggest challenges that I have that I biggest challenges that I have that I see for ministry leaders is there's see for ministry leaders is there's see for ministry leaders is there's almost a sense of like man, we've missed almost a sense of like man, we've missed almost a sense of like man, we've missed out on this wave or this wave and we're out on this wave or this wave and we're out on this wave or this wave and we're being told this is the biggest wave ever being told this is the biggest wave ever being told this is the biggest wave ever of technology. It's bigger than the of technology. It's bigger than the of technology. It's bigger than the internet. It's bigger than mobile. It's internet. It's bigger than mobile. It's internet. It's bigger than mobile. It's bigger than, you know, whatever. And and bigger than, you know, whatever. And and bigger than, you know, whatever. And and I think history gets to judge those I think history gets to judge those I think history gets to judge those things. A lot of times the bold things. A lot of times the bold things. A lot of times the bold predictions that come at the front side predictions that come at the front side predictions that come at the front side are not the right predictions, but we are not the right predictions, but we are not the right predictions, but we can always look back and see how how big can always look back and see how how big can always look back and see how how big of an impact, you know, this was or of an impact, you know, this was or of an impact, you know, this was or wasn't. But regardless, FOMO shouldn't wasn't. But regardless, FOMO shouldn't wasn't. But regardless, FOMO shouldn't ever cause us to ever cause us to ever cause us to adopt technology that we actually don't adopt technology that we actually don't adopt technology that we actually don't understand how it works and we don't understand how it works and we don't understand how it works and we don't understand if it works or we know it understand if it works or we know it understand if it works or we know it doesn't work and we're choosing to sort doesn't work and we're choosing to sort doesn't work and we're choosing to sort of put it out there just because we of put it out there just because we of put it out there just because we don't want to be guilty of not having don't want to be guilty of not having don't want to be guilty of not having something. Um to it. I think there's a something. Um to it. I think there's a something. Um to it. I think there's a discernment that and responsibility that discernment that and responsibility that discernment that and responsibility that comes with it. Um so, there's huge comes with it. Um so, there's huge comes with it. Um so, there's huge opportunities.

opportunities. opportunities. I I'm definitely not discouraged from I I'm definitely not discouraged from I I'm definitely not discouraged from the moment that we're in, but I do feel the moment that we're in, but I do feel the moment that we're in, but I do feel like we've got to be much more careful like we've got to be much more careful like we've got to be much more careful and thoughtful about how we approach it. and thoughtful about how we approach it. and thoughtful about how we approach it. And and my last word basically is And and my last word basically is And and my last word basically is there's so many exciting things that are there's so many exciting things that are there's so many exciting things that are going on right now that I don't want going on right now that I don't want going on right now that I don't want even some of this this hesitation or even some of this this hesitation or even some of this this hesitation or this this caution we have around AI to this this caution we have around AI to this this caution we have around AI to keep us from recognizing that that some keep us from recognizing that that some keep us from recognizing that that some of the product of all of this movement of the product of all of this movement of the product of all of this movement towards AI and some of the the quest for towards AI and some of the the quest for towards AI and some of the the quest for truth that we see happening around truth that we see happening around truth that we see happening around content is actually pointing people to content is actually pointing people to content is actually pointing people to the Bible. And that's actually God can the Bible. And that's actually God can the Bible. And that's actually God can even use these things that can seem a even use these things that can seem a even use these things that can seem a bit confusing and it seem a bit bit confusing and it seem a bit bit confusing and it seem a bit concerning concerning concerning as an opportunity to draw people closer as an opportunity to draw people closer as an opportunity to draw people closer to him. And I feel like that's what to him. And I feel like that's what to him. And I feel like that's what we're witnessing and that's what our we're witnessing and that's what our we're witnessing and that's what our milestone that we're celebrating here in milestone that we're celebrating here in milestone that we're celebrating here in November is a reminder of is that November is a reminder of is that November is a reminder of is that there's something something exciting there's something something exciting there's something something exciting happening acceleration is happening. happening acceleration is happening. happening acceleration is happening. You've talked about it on your show You've talked about it on your show You've talked about it on your show multiple times. multiple times. multiple times. And we're not the only evidence of it, And we're not the only evidence of it, And we're not the only evidence of it, but I think it's good to be reminded but I think it's good to be reminded but I think it's good to be reminded about that as we're maybe sometimes about that as we're maybe sometimes about that as we're maybe sometimes could be discouraged about some of the could be discouraged about some of the could be discouraged about some of the the sense of, you know, what's going to the sense of, you know, what's going to the sense of, you know, what's going to happen and what are all the bad things happen and what are all the bad things happen and what are all the bad things that are going to happen. I I I have a that are going to happen. I I I have a that are going to happen. I I I have a sort of steady confidence that God's sort of steady confidence that God's sort of steady confidence that God's kind of got the bigger picture in mind kind of got the bigger picture in mind kind of got the bigger picture in mind and we're seeing some evidence of that and we're seeing some evidence of that and we're seeing some evidence of that right now.

right now. right now. Me too. Well, thanks for the caveats and Me too. Well, thanks for the caveats and Me too. Well, thanks for the caveats and congratulations, man. A billion congratulations, man. A billion congratulations, man. A billion installs, that's huge and I love that installs, that's huge and I love that installs, that's huge and I love that this is accelerating not decelerating this is accelerating not decelerating this is accelerating not decelerating and and and here's to accuracy in the word of God, a here's to accuracy in the word of God, a here's to accuracy in the word of God, a value that I think pretty much all of us value that I think pretty much all of us value that I think pretty much all of us share on this pod Well, I do and our share on this pod Well, I do and our share on this pod Well, I do and our listeners too. So, Bobby, if there's a listeners too. So, Bobby, if there's a listeners too. So, Bobby, if there's a place you want to direct people to for place you want to direct people to for place you want to direct people to for YouVersion the celebration or whatever, YouVersion the celebration or whatever, YouVersion the celebration or whatever, where would you point them to? where would you point them to? where would you point them to? Obviously, if you want to get the app, Obviously, if you want to get the app, Obviously, if you want to get the app, you can go to the app store and search you can go to the app store and search you can go to the app store and search for Bible or you can go to bible.com and for Bible or you can go to bible.com and for Bible or you can go to bible.com and be able to find the Bible app. This be able to find the Bible app. This be able to find the Bible app. This November though we're we're celebrating November though we're we're celebrating November though we're we're celebrating Global Bible Month as a part of this Global Bible Month as a part of this Global Bible Month as a part of this overall celebration and you can go to overall celebration and you can go to overall celebration and you can go to globalbiblemonth.com globalbiblemonth.com globalbiblemonth.com and and hear about all the great things and and hear about all the great things and and hear about all the great things we have planned. we have planned. we have planned. Well, I know we're going to continue Well, I know we're going to continue Well, I know we're going to continue this conversation in the future. As this conversation in the future. As this conversation in the future. As always, it's been challenging, rich, always, it's been challenging, rich, always, it's been challenging, rich, surprising, and helpful. Bobby, thank surprising, and helpful. Bobby, thank surprising, and helpful. Bobby, thank you. Yeah, thank you, Carey.