Preaching Tips for Reaching People in a Post Christian WORLD

CS Lewis made the point years ago CS Lewis made the point years ago sociologically he said there are there sociologically he said there are there sociologically he said there are there are pre-christian cultures and are pre-christian cultures and are pre-christian cultures and post-christian cultures and and a post-christian cultures and and a post-christian cultures and and a postchristian culture he said it's postchristian culture he said it's postchristian culture he said it's almost like the analogy of speaking to a almost like the analogy of speaking to a almost like the analogy of speaking to a divorced person about marriage versus divorced person about marriage versus divorced person about marriage versus speaking to a person about marriage speaking to a person about marriage speaking to a person about marriage who's a virgin and they've never been who's a virgin and they've never been who's a virgin and they've never been married before you're speaking to them married before you're speaking to them married before you're speaking to them and the ideas are fresh and exciting you and the ideas are fresh and exciting you and the ideas are fresh and exciting you know you look you look now at what we're know you look you look now at what we're know you look you look now at what we're seeing and I know you've been speaking seeing and I know you've been speaking seeing and I know you've been speaking to is the Russell brands of the world um to is the Russell brands of the world um to is the Russell brands of the world um the the the the kind of the renewal of the the the the kind of the renewal of the the the the kind of the renewal of spiritual thinking even like Joe Rogan's spiritual thinking even like Joe Rogan's spiritual thinking even like Joe Rogan's talking about God a lot more and talking about God a lot more and talking about God a lot more and Peterson and all these kind of thinkers Peterson and all these kind of thinkers Peterson and all these kind of thinkers are are Awakening and that's that's a are are Awakening and that's that's a are are Awakening and that's that's a lot of like pre-christian I'm hearing lot of like pre-christian I'm hearing lot of like pre-christian I'm hearing about the gospel for the first time and about the gospel for the first time and about the gospel for the first time and I'm getting super excited about the I'm getting super excited about the I'm getting super excited about the Bible's legitimate Jesus is real blowing Bible's legitimate Jesus is real blowing Bible's legitimate Jesus is real blowing my mind even though I'm 45 years old and my mind even though I'm 45 years old and my mind even though I'm 45 years old and I've lived a life that's like crazy I've lived a life that's like crazy I've lived a life that's like crazy that's that's like talking to a person that's that's like talking to a person that's that's like talking to a person who's never been married about marriage who's never been married about marriage who's never been married about marriage welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast I'm so glad you joined us today podcast I'm so glad you joined us today podcast I'm so glad you joined us today hey if you're new here like most people hey if you're new here like most people hey if you're new here like most people are make sure you subscribe you will are make sure you subscribe you will are make sure you subscribe you will never miss an episode and today in my never miss an episode and today in my never miss an episode and today in my conversation with Mark we're going to conversation with Mark we're going to conversation with Mark we're going to talk about preaching to a post-christian talk about preaching to a post-christian talk about preaching to a post-christian and pre-christian and pre-christian and pre-christian culture leveraging unique personality if culture leveraging unique personality if culture leveraging unique personality if you've got like ADHD or tourettes like you've got like ADHD or tourettes like you've got like ADHD or tourettes like Mark does what do you do with that in Mark does what do you do with that in Mark does what do you do with that in leadership and how to talk to an anxious leadership and how to talk to an anxious leadership and how to talk to an anxious generous ation and more hey uh today I'm

generous ation and more hey uh today I'm generous ation and more hey uh today I'm doing a brand new segment on the state doing a brand new segment on the state doing a brand new segment on the state of the church well something different of the church well something different of the church well something different on this episode for the very first time on this episode for the very first time on this episode for the very first time we are doing a stateof the church update we are doing a stateof the church update we are doing a stateof the church update and I'm here with my good friend and and I'm here with my good friend and and I'm here with my good friend and Bara CEO David Kinnaman David we're just Bara CEO David Kinnaman David we're just Bara CEO David Kinnaman David we're just going to talk about what's happening in going to talk about what's happening in going to talk about what's happening in the church right things are changing as the church right things are changing as the church right things are changing as quickly as I've ever seen so we want to quickly as I've ever seen so we want to quickly as I've ever seen so we want to give leaders an update um welcome thank give leaders an update um welcome thank give leaders an update um welcome thank you it's so good to be here and uh you it's so good to be here and uh you it's so good to be here and uh thanks to all your listeners for joining thanks to all your listeners for joining thanks to all your listeners for joining in on this little up update on the state in on this little up update on the state in on this little up update on the state of the church well this feels like a of the church well this feels like a of the church well this feels like a little mini Church pulse weekly that little mini Church pulse weekly that little mini Church pulse weekly that podcast we did before and we'll be podcast we did before and we'll be podcast we did before and we'll be bringing this to you about once a month bringing this to you about once a month bringing this to you about once a month uh just as an update a value ad to uh just as an update a value ad to uh just as an update a value ad to leaders so uh you have done an indepth leaders so uh you have done an indepth leaders so uh you have done an indepth study uh of the state of the church and study uh of the state of the church and study uh of the state of the church and we're going to focus on a trend honestly we're going to focus on a trend honestly we're going to focus on a trend honestly that when I saw it for the first time that when I saw it for the first time that when I saw it for the first time from you couldn't believe what I was from you couldn't believe what I was from you couldn't believe what I was seeing what are you what are you going seeing what are you what are you going seeing what are you what are you going to share with us today well a lot of you to share with us today well a lot of you to share with us today well a lot of you have heard about the rise of the nuns uh have heard about the rise of the nuns uh have heard about the rise of the nuns uh n o n the religiously unaffiliated and n o n the religiously unaffiliated and n o n the religiously unaffiliated and that that Trend continues although there that that Trend continues although there that that Trend continues although there is some evidence that it is slowing down is some evidence that it is slowing down is some evidence that it is slowing down which is a good thing um that it is which is a good thing um that it is which is a good thing um that it is plateauing uh but what I really want to plateauing uh but what I really want to plateauing uh but what I really want to talk about today is this trend of young talk about today is this trend of young talk about today is this trend of young women leading the way among the women leading the way among the women leading the way among the religious nuns and um several different religious nuns and um several different religious nuns and um several different research companies including Bara have research companies including Bara have research companies including Bara have begun to uncover this disaffection with begun to uncover this disaffection with begun to uncover this disaffection with young women so uh we did a big study young women so uh we did a big study young women so uh we did a big study among gen Z this is among teenagers and among gen Z this is among teenagers and among gen Z this is among teenagers and young adults uh basically 13 to 24 and young adults uh basically 13 to 24 and young adults uh basically 13 to 24 and in both cases when you compare young men

in both cases when you compare young men in both cases when you compare young men teenage men to teenage women um it is teenage men to teenage women um it is teenage men to teenage women um it is the teenage women who are more likely to the teenage women who are more likely to the teenage women who are more likely to identify as religiously unaffiliated identify as religiously unaffiliated identify as religiously unaffiliated than young teens young teen men's young than young teens young teen men's young than young teens young teen men's young teen men um and then uh also among 18 to teen men um and then uh also among 18 to teen men um and then uh also among 18 to 24 year olds it is also substantially 24 year olds it is also substantially 24 year olds it is also substantially higher among teen women I'm sorry young higher among teen women I'm sorry young higher among teen women I'm sorry young adult women who say that they're adult women who say that they're adult women who say that they're religiously unaffiliated compared to religiously unaffiliated compared to religiously unaffiliated compared to young adult men so um it's a real in young adult men so um it's a real in young adult men so um it's a real in what I describe as sort of a canaran uh what I describe as sort of a canaran uh what I describe as sort of a canaran uh in the coal mine a bit of a bell weather in the coal mine a bit of a bell weather in the coal mine a bit of a bell weather for us to be paying attention to and um for us to be paying attention to and um for us to be paying attention to and um it's really the first time that uh it's really the first time that uh it's really the first time that uh social researchers have seen this sort social researchers have seen this sort social researchers have seen this sort of switch where G in terms of gender of switch where G in terms of gender of switch where G in terms of gender usually it's women who are more usually it's women who are more usually it's women who are more religiously inclined more oriented religiously inclined more oriented religiously inclined more oriented Around Church attendance uh but but our Around Church attendance uh but but our Around Church attendance uh but but our data other data is starting to show this data other data is starting to show this data other data is starting to show this set of disconnections among young women set of disconnections among young women set of disconnections among young women and what will that mean for the future and what will that mean for the future and what will that mean for the future of their connection as young moms as as of their connection as young moms as as of their connection as young moms as as young marrieds uh as young single women young marrieds uh as young single women young marrieds uh as young single women in the in the church um there's good in the in the church um there's good in the in the church um there's good evidence that we should be paying evidence that we should be paying evidence that we should be paying attention to this sort of growing divide attention to this sort of growing divide attention to this sort of growing divide between young women and the church so between young women and the church so between young women and the church so just to be clear young men are more just to be clear young men are more just to be clear young men are more spiritually engaged for the first time spiritually engaged for the first time spiritually engaged for the first time in research history that we're aware of in research history that we're aware of in research history that we're aware of than young women in other words between than young women in other words between than young women in other words between 15 and 30 roughly you're seeing 15 and 30 roughly you're seeing 15 and 30 roughly you're seeing spiritual women disen like women spiritual women disen like women spiritual women disen like women disengage spiritually more than men I I disengage spiritually more than men I I disengage spiritually more than men I I got to ask you because these are short got to ask you because these are short got to ask you because these are short segments but I got to ask you do we have segments but I got to ask you do we have segments but I got to ask you do we have any clue any clue any clue why well the research is still early and

why well the research is still early and why well the research is still early and this is something that I think our team this is something that I think our team this is something that I think our team is is uh growing energy to study in is is uh growing energy to study in is is uh growing energy to study in Greater depth uh as I presented this Greater depth uh as I presented this Greater depth uh as I presented this data even just last week in Phoenix data even just last week in Phoenix data even just last week in Phoenix Arizona at a at a pastor's Gathering uh Arizona at a at a pastor's Gathering uh Arizona at a at a pastor's Gathering uh it was really interesting how much how it was really interesting how much how it was really interesting how much how much connection how much sort of Buzz much connection how much sort of Buzz much connection how much sort of Buzz there was even a couple weeks ago Carol there was even a couple weeks ago Carol there was even a couple weeks ago Carol you'll remember we were talking about you'll remember we were talking about you'll remember we were talking about this on one of our state of the church this on one of our state of the church this on one of our state of the church webinars and it it really um blew up the webinars and it it really um blew up the webinars and it it really um blew up the chat I think there's a there's a lot of chat I think there's a there's a lot of chat I think there's a there's a lot of um a lot of deeply held feelings that um a lot of deeply held feelings that um a lot of deeply held feelings that people have towards us and and well they people have towards us and and well they people have towards us and and well they should um we want to we want to take a should um we want to we want to take a should um we want to we want to take a deeper look at this in the months to deeper look at this in the months to deeper look at this in the months to come but um one of the key things you come but um one of the key things you come but um one of the key things you could look at that is that you know could look at that is that you know could look at that is that you know we've seen now for almost a decade that we've seen now for almost a decade that we've seen now for almost a decade that there is a changing relationship to there is a changing relationship to there is a changing relationship to marriage and child rearing and the marriage and child rearing and the marriage and child rearing and the notion whether men or women but women notion whether men or women but women notion whether men or women but women are not as likely to say I want to get are not as likely to say I want to get are not as likely to say I want to get married in the future uh there is a I married in the future uh there is a I married in the future uh there is a I think a growing you know the majority of think a growing you know the majority of think a growing you know the majority of young young women 18 to 24 are not young young women 18 to 24 are not young young women 18 to 24 are not married um there's a real sense of power married um there's a real sense of power married um there's a real sense of power dynamics that they have there's a real dynamics that they have there's a real dynamics that they have there's a real sense of you know where do women fit in sense of you know where do women fit in sense of you know where do women fit in the sort of religious ecosystem and the sort of religious ecosystem and the sort of religious ecosystem and whether what's fair and what's right and whether what's fair and what's right and whether what's fair and what's right and what's theologically correct so there's what's theologically correct so there's what's theologically correct so there's a lot of good questions this this I a lot of good questions this this I a lot of good questions this this I think study leads us with more leads us think study leads us with more leads us think study leads us with more leads us with more questions than it does answers with more questions than it does answers with more questions than it does answers but it is something to really pay but it is something to really pay but it is something to really pay attention to because it means you know attention to because it means you know attention to because it means you know in the case like I've got two daughters in the case like I've got two daughters in the case like I've got two daughters in this age segment and you know how it in this age segment and you know how it in this age segment and you know how it is that the the church connects with is that the the church connects with is that the the church connects with them and and to them and with you know them and and to them and with you know them and and to them and with you know with their hearts and with their with their hearts and with their with their hearts and with their passions in the future is a critical passions in the future is a critical passions in the future is a critical question for us as church leaders to be question for us as church leaders to be question for us as church leaders to be wrestling with well I like all I can

wrestling with well I like all I can wrestling with well I like all I can tell you is the next time I'm up tell you is the next time I'm up tell you is the next time I'm up preaching I'm I always have thought for preaching I'm I always have thought for preaching I'm I always have thought for my whole time I'm going to talk to the my whole time I'm going to talk to the my whole time I'm going to talk to the spiritual skeptic guy who doesn't want spiritual skeptic guy who doesn't want spiritual skeptic guy who doesn't want to be there and now I got to reprogram to be there and now I got to reprogram to be there and now I got to reprogram and think actually that might be a woman and think actually that might be a woman and think actually that might be a woman like like that's a it's a total paradigm like like that's a it's a total paradigm like like that's a it's a total paradigm shift but I'm really grateful for This shift but I'm really grateful for This shift but I'm really grateful for This research David we're going to bring more research David we're going to bring more research David we're going to bring more of these segments every month on the of these segments every month on the of these segments every month on the podcast in the meantime if people want podcast in the meantime if people want podcast in the meantime if people want more go to stateof more go to stateof more go to stateof theur carry you can access this data theur carry you can access this data theur carry you can access this data point and a lot of other things stateof point and a lot of other things stateof point and a lot of other things stateof Thee church.com Car David until next Thee church.com Car David until next Thee church.com Car David until next time thank you so much we'll see you time thank you so much we'll see you time thank you so much we'll see you next time hope you enjoyed that new next time hope you enjoyed that new next time hope you enjoyed that new monthly segment at the top of this monthly segment at the top of this monthly segment at the top of this episode each month I'll be connecting episode each month I'll be connecting episode each month I'll be connecting with David Kerman to discuss a top Trend with David Kerman to discuss a top Trend with David Kerman to discuss a top Trend or statistic he's learning and it's all or statistic he's learning and it's all or statistic he's learning and it's all happening at state of the church I hope happening at state of the church I hope happening at state of the church I hope this helps you stay up toate on this helps you stay up toate on this helps you stay up toate on everything make sure you subscribe like everything make sure you subscribe like everything make sure you subscribe like and leave a comment to join the and leave a comment to join the and leave a comment to join the conversation and now let's hear a word conversation and now let's hear a word conversation and now let's hear a word from this episode's partner and then from this episode's partner and then from this episode's partner and then we'll dive into my conversation with we'll dive into my conversation with we'll dive into my conversation with Mark Clark this episode is brought to Mark Clark this episode is brought to Mark Clark this episode is brought to you by my course that I co-develop with you by my course that I co-develop with you by my course that I co-develop with Mark Clark today's guest called The Art Mark Clark today's guest called The Art Mark Clark today's guest called The Art of reaching so if you want practical of reaching so if you want practical of reaching so if you want practical insights strategies and lessons to reach insights strategies and lessons to reach insights strategies and lessons to reach more unchurched people it's all in the more unchurched people it's all in the more unchurched people it's all in the course in it you're going to learn to course in it you're going to learn to course in it you're going to learn to equip your staff and volunteers to have equip your staff and volunteers to have equip your staff and volunteers to have more effective conversations about Faith more effective conversations about Faith more effective conversations about Faith you can streamline how you engage you can streamline how you engage you can streamline how you engage first-time visitors and you'll develop first-time visitors and you'll develop first-time visitors and you'll develop an approach to digital evangelism that an approach to digital evangelism that an approach to digital evangelism that leads to in-person attendance and life

leads to in-person attendance and life leads to in-person attendance and life transformation plus we got a whole lot transformation plus we got a whole lot transformation plus we got a whole lot more so if you're thinking about joining more so if you're thinking about joining more so if you're thinking about joining Now's the Time to act this week we've Now's the Time to act this week we've Now's the Time to act this week we've got a very special offer you can check got a very special offer you can check got a very special offer you can check out at the artof reaching course.com in out at the artof reaching course.com in out at the artof reaching course.com in the art of reaching you'll get a proven the art of reaching you'll get a proven the art of reaching you'll get a proven plan to increase the number of guests plan to increase the number of guests plan to increase the number of guests you see each weekend and reach more you see each weekend and reach more you see each weekend and reach more people in your community so check it out people in your community so check it out people in your community so check it out go to the art of reaching course .c or go to the art of reaching course .c or go to the art of reaching course .c or click the link in the description click the link in the description click the link in the description wherever you're accessing this episode wherever you're accessing this episode wherever you're accessing this episode Mark it's always great to be together Mark it's always great to be together Mark it's always great to be together welcome back yes sir thank you thank you welcome back yes sir thank you thank you welcome back yes sir thank you thank you all right man loving the new digs man all right man loving the new digs man all right man loving the new digs man studi looking good well last time we studi looking good well last time we studi looking good well last time we were right here right when we did the were right here right when we did the were right here right when we did the show that's right live for your 10 show that's right live for your 10 show that's right live for your 10 aniversary what a what a what a aniversary what a what a what a aniversary what a what a what a privilege it was to interview you for privilege it was to interview you for privilege it was to interview you for that we're still alive and kicking and that we're still alive and kicking and that we're still alive and kicking and uh I got so much I want to talk to you uh I got so much I want to talk to you uh I got so much I want to talk to you about today uh you're one of my about today uh you're one of my about today uh you're one of my perennial faves on this podcast man perennial faves on this podcast man perennial faves on this podcast man appreciate that I want to talk about the appreciate that I want to talk about the appreciate that I want to talk about the big move you made from Vancouver to big move you made from Vancouver to big move you made from Vancouver to Sacramento a couple years ago I know Sacramento a couple years ago I know Sacramento a couple years ago I know that was something I mean very rare for that was something I mean very rare for that was something I mean very rare for a founding Pastor to go from the lead a founding Pastor to go from the lead a founding Pastor to go from the lead Pastor seat to not the lead Pastor seat Pastor seat to not the lead Pastor seat Pastor seat to not the lead Pastor seat you switch countries and I want to start you switch countries and I want to start you switch countries and I want to start with a context because you know I do a with a context because you know I do a with a context because you know I do a lot of my work in the US but you know lot of my work in the US but you know lot of my work in the US but you know I'm recording this from my studio north I'm recording this from my studio north I'm recording this from my studio north of Toronto Canada and I always feel like of Toronto Canada and I always feel like of Toronto Canada and I always feel like Canada's from the future because we Canada's from the future because we Canada's from the future because we became post-christian when I was a kid became post-christian when I was a kid became post-christian when I was a kid America is going through thats right now America is going through thats right now America is going through thats right now and that's why I think we get to speak and that's why I think we get to speak and that's why I think we get to speak into as you know a Canadian and for into as you know a Canadian and for into as you know a Canadian and for yourself former Canadian or I guess

yourself former Canadian or I guess yourself former Canadian or I guess you're still a Canadian I'm a Canadian you're still a Canadian I'm a Canadian you're still a Canadian I'm a Canadian I'm trying to get my green card if I'm trying to get my green card if I'm trying to get my green card if anyone out there can help me out here anyone out there can help me out here anyone out there can help me out here but yes uh I'm in I'm in the process if but yes uh I'm in I'm in the process if but yes uh I'm in I'm in the process if we don't become the maybe we'll become we don't become the maybe we'll become we don't become the maybe we'll become the 51st state Carrie and then automatic the 51st state Carrie and then automatic the 51st state Carrie and then automatic it's solved yeah exactly and you know it's solved yeah exactly and you know it's solved yeah exactly and you know what we just got canceled for that in what we just got canceled for that in what we just got canceled for that in our own country but that's okay our own country but that's okay our own country but that's okay uh no I'd love to know what are the big uh no I'd love to know what are the big uh no I'd love to know what are the big differences you see culturally between differences you see culturally between differences you see culturally between Vancouver which for our American Vancouver which for our American Vancouver which for our American listeners which are most most of listeners which are most most of listeners which are most most of listeners uh I mean imagine being in listeners uh I mean imagine being in listeners uh I mean imagine being in Seattle Portland La it's got that Left Seattle Portland La it's got that Left Seattle Portland La it's got that Left Coast hippie kind of vibe you could be Coast hippie kind of vibe you could be Coast hippie kind of vibe you could be Boulder that kind of thing so what what Boulder that kind of thing so what what Boulder that kind of thing so what what are the differences you're noticing are the differences you're noticing are the differences you're noticing between that culture where you to the between that culture where you to the between that culture where you to the glory of God and to your credit built a glory of God and to your credit built a glory of God and to your credit built a church of five th000 attenders which church of five th000 attenders which church of five th000 attenders which like does not happen in our country it like does not happen in our country it like does not happen in our country it just doesn't happen particularly in just doesn't happen particularly in just doesn't happen particularly in Vancouver and and God did that through Vancouver and and God did that through Vancouver and and God did that through you yeah so what are the differences you yeah so what are the differences you yeah so what are the differences you're seeing in culture yeah yeah I you're seeing in culture yeah yeah I you're seeing in culture yeah yeah I mean I think exactly what you said uh Ka mean I think exactly what you said uh Ka mean I think exactly what you said uh Ka is probably a generation or two ahead of is probably a generation or two ahead of is probably a generation or two ahead of America in regard to post-christian America in regard to post-christian America in regard to post-christian thinking so uh you don't you don't meet thinking so uh you don't you don't meet thinking so uh you don't you don't meet I mean you know what it's like like down I mean you know what it's like like down I mean you know what it's like like down here like everyone shows up to Christmas here like everyone shows up to Christmas here like everyone shows up to Christmas Eve so our church goes from you know Eve so our church goes from you know Eve so our church goes from you know 16,000 people on a weekend to 45,000 16,000 people on a weekend to 45,000 16,000 people on a weekend to 45,000 people at Christmas Eve services I mean people at Christmas Eve services I mean people at Christmas Eve services I mean we do so many of them it's crazy we're we do so many of them it's crazy we're we do so many of them it's crazy we're all dead by the end you know uh we're all dead by the end you know uh we're all dead by the end you know uh we're all like Jesus is born and we're dead uh

all like Jesus is born and we're dead uh all like Jesus is born and we're dead uh by by December 25th but it's like by by December 25th but it's like by by December 25th but it's like everyone shows up to church on Christmas everyone shows up to church on Christmas everyone shows up to church on Christmas and Easter and there's a culture a bit and Easter and there's a culture a bit and Easter and there's a culture a bit more of a culture of Christianity in the more of a culture of Christianity in the more of a culture of Christianity in the water still uh whether that's like kind water still uh whether that's like kind water still uh whether that's like kind of just a foundational idea of like in of just a foundational idea of like in of just a foundational idea of like in God we trust God is part of our you know God we trust God is part of our you know God we trust God is part of our you know of Independence God is part of our money of Independence God is part of our money of Independence God is part of our money God is part of our culture you know all God is part of our culture you know all God is part of our culture you know all of that and Canada has struggled with of that and Canada has struggled with of that and Canada has struggled with that over the last 50 or 60 years and that over the last 50 or 60 years and that over the last 50 or 60 years and there's been a shift certainly and it's there's been a shift certainly and it's there's been a shift certainly and it's become more postchristian and so in become more postchristian and so in become more postchristian and so in Vancouver that expressed itself in Vancouver that expressed itself in Vancouver that expressed itself in definitely more Progressive ideas uh as definitely more Progressive ideas uh as definitely more Progressive ideas uh as you said kind of the hippie New Age so you said kind of the hippie New Age so you said kind of the hippie New Age so it's interesting it's like it was a mix it's interesting it's like it was a mix it's interesting it's like it was a mix of atheist agnostics which you know we of atheist agnostics which you know we of atheist agnostics which you know we we would bump into a ton and that was my we would bump into a ton and that was my we would bump into a ton and that was my upbringing growing up so like I would upbringing growing up so like I would upbringing growing up so like I would just speak to those people and I think just speak to those people and I think just speak to those people and I think for the church leaders Among Us that's for the church leaders Among Us that's for the church leaders Among Us that's important you always got to be speaking important you always got to be speaking important you always got to be speaking as Timothy Keller would say to the older as Timothy Keller would say to the older as Timothy Keller would say to the older brother and the younger brother every brother and the younger brother every brother and the younger brother every weekend the younger Progressive weekend the younger Progressive weekend the younger Progressive atheistic brother who doesn't love God atheistic brother who doesn't love God atheistic brother who doesn't love God and then the religious brother who's and then the religious brother who's and then the religious brother who's lost by following the rules and both lost by following the rules and both lost by following the rules and both need to repent kind of thing so we took need to repent kind of thing so we took need to repent kind of thing so we took that philosophy into trying to reach that philosophy into trying to reach that philosophy into trying to reach people in Vancouver so we started with people in Vancouver so we started with people in Vancouver so we started with 16 people in my house and just started 16 people in my house and just started 16 people in my house and just started preaching the Bible but but preaching it preaching the Bible but but preaching it preaching the Bible but but preaching it to that Progressive mindset what of the to that Progressive mindset what of the to that Progressive mindset what of the difference is it's it's it's almost more difference is it's it's it's almost more difference is it's it's it's almost more religious and spiritual than atheistic religious and spiritual than atheistic religious and spiritual than atheistic at times so you meet the atheists you at times so you meet the atheists you at times so you meet the atheists you meet the agnostics you meet the people meet the agnostics you meet the people meet the agnostics you meet the people who don't believe in God um who believe who don't believe in God um who believe who don't believe in God um who believe in scientism and naturalism and all the in scientism and naturalism and all the in scientism and naturalism and all the rest and then you have those rest and then you have those rest and then you have those conversations it's funny actually at the

conversations it's funny actually at the conversations it's funny actually at the Christmas Eve service I was speaking to Christmas Eve service I was speaking to Christmas Eve service I was speaking to those people and one of the points that those people and one of the points that those people and one of the points that I made that was like I had a whole bunch I made that was like I had a whole bunch I made that was like I had a whole bunch of atheists come up after and go okay of atheists come up after and go okay of atheists come up after and go okay bro you're you're messing me up a little bro you're you're messing me up a little bro you're you're messing me up a little bit is I said you know you come in here bit is I said you know you come in here bit is I said you know you come in here as an atheist and a naturalist and you as an atheist and a naturalist and you as an atheist and a naturalist and you think what I'm talking about right now think what I'm talking about right now think what I'm talking about right now the Virgin birth of Jesus is stupid it's the Virgin birth of Jesus is stupid it's the Virgin birth of Jesus is stupid it's silly it's dumb it's anti-science but silly it's dumb it's anti-science but silly it's dumb it's anti-science but the thing is is you believe in the the thing is is you believe in the the thing is is you believe in the Virgin birth of the universe you believe Virgin birth of the universe you believe Virgin birth of the universe you believe that all time matter energy came into that all time matter energy came into that all time matter energy came into existence out of nothing so both of us existence out of nothing so both of us existence out of nothing so both of us believe in a virgin birth it's just the believe in a virgin birth it's just the believe in a virgin birth it's just the question of which one do you believe in question of which one do you believe in question of which one do you believe in and they were like wait what you know so and they were like wait what you know so and they were like wait what you know so so we had some really good conversations so we had some really good conversations so we had some really good conversations and so it's it's really speaking to both and so it's it's really speaking to both and so it's it's really speaking to both those people there are still a lot of those people there are still a lot of those people there are still a lot of atheist naturalist thinkers that don't atheist naturalist thinkers that don't atheist naturalist thinkers that don't believe in meta you know the believe in meta you know the believe in meta you know the metaphysical realities of the universe metaphysical realities of the universe metaphysical realities of the universe and there are people who do but they're and there are people who do but they're and there are people who do but they're new age and they're they believe in the new age and they're they believe in the new age and they're they believe in the spiritual and the religious but they're spiritual and the religious but they're spiritual and the religious but they're not like okay I believe in Jesus and I not like okay I believe in Jesus and I not like okay I believe in Jesus and I believe in the Bible so it really is believe in the Bible so it really is believe in the Bible so it really is about how you speak to both of those about how you speak to both of those about how you speak to both of those groups of people and by God's grace as groups of people and by God's grace as groups of people and by God's grace as you said we had a lot of success in you you said we had a lot of success in you you said we had a lot of success in you know talking to that worldview and know talking to that worldview and know talking to that worldview and showing them that yes you're spiritual showing them that yes you're spiritual showing them that yes you're spiritual for a reason you know there's a actually for a reason you know there's a actually for a reason you know there's a actually a bunch of we're going to talk about the a bunch of we're going to talk about the a bunch of we're going to talk about the the book I just wrote called the problem the book I just wrote called the problem the book I just wrote called the problem of Life literally one of the underg ging of Life literally one of the underg ging of Life literally one of the underg ging things of the whole thing is things of the whole thing is things of the whole thing is We Are Spiritual there's a reason We Are Spiritual there's a reason We Are Spiritual there's a reason there's a longing you have for justice there's a longing you have for justice there's a longing you have for justice for a better world you wa you you for a better world you wa you you for a better world you wa you you connect to the Transcendent every once connect to the Transcendent every once connect to the Transcendent every once in a while and something like speaks to in a while and something like speaks to in a while and something like speaks to you beauty Joy something from the other

you beauty Joy something from the other you beauty Joy something from the other side of the veil and you have like those side of the veil and you have like those side of the veil and you have like those moments and there's a reason for that moments and there's a reason for that moments and there's a reason for that and it's because you're made spiritual and it's because you're made spiritual and it's because you're made spiritual and you're supposed to chase that down and you're supposed to chase that down and you're supposed to chase that down to find God and anyway so we would speak to find God and anyway so we would speak to find God and anyway so we would speak to that every week and it had a lot of to that every week and it had a lot of to that every week and it had a lot of success and connected to people so so success and connected to people so so success and connected to people so so you know part of the the challenge I you know part of the the challenge I you know part of the the challenge I think in apologetics Mark is I think in think in apologetics Mark is I think in think in apologetics Mark is I think in America and it's Geographic specific and America and it's Geographic specific and America and it's Geographic specific and perhaps generation specific you're perhaps generation specific you're perhaps generation specific you're calling people back to something they calling people back to something they calling people back to something they left or you're calling people into left or you're calling people into left or you're calling people into something they remembered in other words something they remembered in other words something they remembered in other words you know they have a they have kind of a you know they have a they have kind of a you know they have a they have kind of a a Biblical framework right that they a Biblical framework right that they a Biblical framework right that they think about and it's like oh yeah I think about and it's like oh yeah I think about and it's like oh yeah I don't believe that but in a don't believe that but in a don't believe that but in a pre-christian culture which I would say pre-christian culture which I would say pre-christian culture which I would say Vancouver is almost pre-christian rather Vancouver is almost pre-christian rather Vancouver is almost pre-christian rather than post-christian right yeah you can't than post-christian right yeah you can't than post-christian right yeah you can't call them back to something they never call them back to something they never call them back to something they never you can't call them back to they don't you can't call them back to they don't you can't call them back to they don't understand can you comment on that understand can you comment on that understand can you comment on that because I know there Americans listening because I know there Americans listening because I know there Americans listening and Canadians obviously in a global and Canadians obviously in a global and Canadians obviously in a global audience listening who would say yeah audience listening who would say yeah audience listening who would say yeah we're more pre-christian than we're more pre-christian than we're more pre-christian than post-christian so in the Bible Belt you post-christian so in the Bible Belt you post-christian so in the Bible Belt you can have a Revival and say you know that can have a Revival and say you know that can have a Revival and say you know that thing you walked away from you need to thing you walked away from you need to thing you walked away from you need to come back it's like I I never walked come back it's like I I never walked come back it's like I I never walked into it in the first place I have no into it in the first place I have no into it in the first place I have no idea what you're talking about like who idea what you're talking about like who idea what you're talking about like who is Jesus so I'd love to know what your is Jesus so I'd love to know what your is Jesus so I'd love to know what your take on that is yeah the way that's take on that is yeah the way that's take on that is yeah the way that's really uh CS Lewis made the point years really uh CS Lewis made the point years really uh CS Lewis made the point years ago sociologically he said there are ago sociologically he said there are ago sociologically he said there are there are pre-christian cultures and there are pre-christian cultures and there are pre-christian cultures and post-christian cultures and and a post-christian cultures and and a post-christian cultures and and a postchristian culture he said it's postchristian culture he said it's postchristian culture he said it's almost like the analogy of speaking to a almost like the analogy of speaking to a almost like the analogy of speaking to a divorced person about marriage versus

divorced person about marriage versus divorced person about marriage versus speaking to a person about marriage speaking to a person about marriage speaking to a person about marriage who's a virgin and they've never been who's a virgin and they've never been who's a virgin and they've never been married before you're speaking to them married before you're speaking to them married before you're speaking to them and the ideas are fresh and exciting you and the ideas are fresh and exciting you and the ideas are fresh and exciting you know you look you look now at what we're know you look you look now at what we're know you look you look now at what we're seeing and I know you've been speaking seeing and I know you've been speaking seeing and I know you've been speaking to this the Russell brands of the world to this the Russell brands of the world to this the Russell brands of the world um the the the the kind of the renewal um the the the the kind of the renewal um the the the the kind of the renewal of spiritual thinking even like Joe of spiritual thinking even like Joe of spiritual thinking even like Joe Rogan's talking about God a lot more and Rogan's talking about God a lot more and Rogan's talking about God a lot more and Peterson and all these kind of thinkers Peterson and all these kind of thinkers Peterson and all these kind of thinkers are are Awakening and that's that's a are are Awakening and that's that's a are are Awakening and that's that's a lot of like pre-christian I'm hearing lot of like pre-christian I'm hearing lot of like pre-christian I'm hearing about the gospel for the first time and about the gospel for the first time and about the gospel for the first time and I'm getting super excited about the I'm getting super excited about the I'm getting super excited about the Bible's legitimate Jesus is real blowing Bible's legitimate Jesus is real blowing Bible's legitimate Jesus is real blowing my mind even though I'm 45 years old and my mind even though I'm 45 years old and my mind even though I'm 45 years old and I've lived a life that's like crazy I've lived a life that's like crazy I've lived a life that's like crazy that's that's like talking to a person that's that's like talking to a person that's that's like talking to a person who's never been married about marriage who's never been married about marriage who's never been married about marriage versus someone who's been through a versus someone who's been through a versus someone who's been through a divorce or two they've come out the divorce or two they've come out the divorce or two they've come out the other side of it and they have all these other side of it and they have all these other side of it and they have all these negative views of it and they have all negative views of it and they have all negative views of it and they have all these things that they're nervous about these things that they're nervous about these things that they're nervous about about it and and you need to almost about it and and you need to almost about it and and you need to almost reintroduce Jesus to that kind of reintroduce Jesus to that kind of reintroduce Jesus to that kind of culture so it really is just figuring culture so it really is just figuring culture so it really is just figuring out which culture you're talking to you out which culture you're talking to you out which culture you're talking to you know and understanding if you're talking know and understanding if you're talking know and understanding if you're talking to a pre-christian culture like you're to a pre-christian culture like you're to a pre-christian culture like you're talking about you're explaining things talking about you're explaining things talking about you're explaining things you're getting up and you're saying okay you're getting up and you're saying okay you're getting up and you're saying okay there's no assumptions in your there's no assumptions in your there's no assumptions in your communication right for God so loved the communication right for God so loved the communication right for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son world that he gave his only begotten son world that he gave his only begotten son do you know how many times you have to do you know how many times you have to do you know how many times you have to stop and explain everything you just stop and explain everything you just stop and explain everything you just said yeah right but not in a boring way said yeah right but not in a boring way said yeah right but not in a boring way but like in a fun and Winsome way yeah but like in a fun and Winsome way yeah but like in a fun and Winsome way yeah for God okay

for God okay for God okay stop who's God right and and this is stop who's God right and and this is stop who's God right and and this is literally what we'd say I'd get up and literally what we'd say I'd get up and literally what we'd say I'd get up and I'd preach I'd say okay for God so Lov I'd preach I'd say okay for God so Lov I'd preach I'd say okay for God so Lov okay let's stop some of you walked in okay let's stop some of you walked in okay let's stop some of you walked in here and you're a Buddhist and when you here and you're a Buddhist and when you here and you're a Buddhist and when you hear the word god here's what you think hear the word god here's what you think hear the word god here's what you think d d now others of you might have come d d now others of you might have come d d now others of you might have come here and you're seik or you're Muslim or here and you're seik or you're Muslim or here and you're seik or you're Muslim or you're Jewish and you're here and you're you're Jewish and you're here and you're you're Jewish and you're here and you're exploring Christianity we're glad that exploring Christianity we're glad that exploring Christianity we're glad that you're here when I say God when the you're here when I say God when the you're here when I say God when the Bible says God here's what it means D D Bible says God here's what it means D D Bible says God here's what it means D D D D D D D you know and then you move on D D D D D you know and then you move on D D D D D you know and then you move on for God so loved okay hold on a sec for for God so loved okay hold on a sec for for God so loved okay hold on a sec for those of you who've watched way too many those of you who've watched way too many those of you who've watched way too many Jennifer Anderson movies here's what you Jennifer Anderson movies here's what you Jennifer Anderson movies here's what you hear me say when I say love you think hear me say when I say love you think hear me say when I say love you think it's butterflies you think it's a no it's butterflies you think it's a no it's butterflies you think it's a no here's in the Bible and so you're just here's in the Bible and so you're just here's in the Bible and so you're just going through it and you're explaining going through it and you're explaining going through it and you're explaining to a pre-christian culture all the to a pre-christian culture all the to a pre-christian culture all the assumptions and they're coming alive and assumptions and they're coming alive and assumptions and they're coming alive and excited about it so that's one of the excited about it so that's one of the excited about it so that's one of the differences that we found do you still differences that we found do you still differences that we found do you still have that approach in Sacramento yes have that approach in Sacramento yes have that approach in Sacramento yes okay so you're taking that even though okay so you're taking that even though okay so you're taking that even though you're in a more Christian context I you're in a more Christian context I you're in a more Christian context I mean Sacramento is not not the same as mean Sacramento is not not the same as mean Sacramento is not not the same as Malibu right like it's more of a Malibu right like it's more of a Malibu right like it's more of a conservative culture is that fair yeah conservative culture is that fair yeah conservative culture is that fair yeah yeah yeah I mean there's definitely I yeah yeah I mean there's definitely I yeah yeah I mean there's definitely I mean it's the Hub of the political you mean it's the Hub of the political you mean it's the Hub of the political you know the capitals there for California know the capitals there for California know the capitals there for California all of that's there all of that's there all of that's there there Northern California culture but there Northern California culture but there Northern California culture but yeah it's certainly more Christian more yeah it's certainly more Christian more yeah it's certainly more Christian more conservative but we're now we're now conservative but we're now we're now conservative but we're now we're now moving into territory I think is really moving into territory I think is really moving into territory I think is really helpful for people because I think helpful for people because I think helpful for people because I think sometimes if you're living in a sometimes if you're living in a sometimes if you're living in a post-christian post-christian post-christian mindset and you're like for God to love mindset and you're like for God to love mindset and you're like for God to love the world that gave His only begotten the world that gave His only begotten the world that gave His only begotten son everybody knows everybody knows

son everybody knows everybody knows son everybody knows everybody knows you're losing half your audience because you're losing half your audience because you're losing half your audience because even the Christians have been so even the Christians have been so even the Christians have been so thoroughly secularized they're not 100% thoroughly secularized they're not 100% thoroughly secularized they're not 100% sure what it means and I think one of sure what it means and I think one of sure what it means and I think one of the Geniuses and I I get to hear your the Geniuses and I I get to hear your the Geniuses and I I get to hear your ing regularly you're part of the faculty ing regularly you're part of the faculty ing regularly you're part of the faculty at Conexus Church which I so appreciate at Conexus Church which I so appreciate at Conexus Church which I so appreciate our church um you are so good at our church um you are so good at our church um you are so good at pointing that out regardless of the pointing that out regardless of the pointing that out regardless of the audience and I think that's one of the audience and I think that's one of the audience and I think that's one of the reasons 45,000 people show up on a reasons 45,000 people show up on a reasons 45,000 people show up on a Christmas Eve yeah yeah well it's it's Christmas Eve yeah yeah well it's it's Christmas Eve yeah yeah well it's it's it really is about here's the philosophy it really is about here's the philosophy it really is about here's the philosophy um even if and we talked about this in um even if and we talked about this in um even if and we talked about this in our uh art of better preaching course our uh art of better preaching course our uh art of better preaching course even if you know like if you're a church even if you know like if you're a church even if you know like if you're a church of 300 people right a lot of the people of 300 people right a lot of the people of 300 people right a lot of the people listening to this pastor 300 people listening to this pastor 300 people listening to this pastor 300 people and they're like okay I know every and they're like okay I know every and they're like okay I know every single one of these people are a single one of these people are a single one of these people are a Christian I could tell you what their Christian I could tell you what their Christian I could tell you what their first name is last name is I baptize first name is last name is I baptize first name is last name is I baptize them their brother their sister them their brother their sister them their brother their sister everybody even if that's your church my everybody even if that's your church my everybody even if that's your church my encouragement would be when you get up encouragement would be when you get up encouragement would be when you get up on a weekend you preach and talk like on a weekend you preach and talk like on a weekend you preach and talk like their non-Christian neighbors are in the their non-Christian neighbors are in the their non-Christian neighbors are in the room so you're constantly like hey if room so you're constantly like hey if room so you're constantly like hey if you're an atheist and you hear for God you're an atheist and you hear for God you're an atheist and you hear for God to love the world here's what you might to love the world here's what you might to love the world here's what you might think and talk to it and what'll happen think and talk to it and what'll happen think and talk to it and what'll happen is if you speak to them over time they is if you speak to them over time they is if you speak to them over time they will start showing up because what will start showing up because what will start showing up because what happens is is your people go oh you know happens is is your people go oh you know happens is is your people go oh you know he he always just talks to me well I he he always just talks to me well I he he always just talks to me well I already know the Bible I know whatever already know the Bible I know whatever already know the Bible I know whatever he's talking to me he's never talking to he's talking to me he's never talking to he's talking to me he's never talking to my atheistic neighbor who hates the my atheistic neighbor who hates the my atheistic neighbor who hates the church he never talks to them but all of church he never talks to them but all of church he never talks to them but all of a sudden if you do it after six months a sudden if you do it after six months a sudden if you do it after six months you've created the culture almost before

you've created the culture almost before you've created the culture almost before it exists and then it starts existing so it exists and then it starts existing so it exists and then it starts existing so that's what we found yeah and that's that's what we found yeah and that's that's what we found yeah and that's what I think is so cool about you being what I think is so cool about you being what I think is so cool about you being honed in the Canadian context and now honed in the Canadian context and now honed in the Canadian context and now you know preaching predom l in the you know preaching predom l in the you know preaching predom l in the United States is you're bringing a United States is you're bringing a United States is you're bringing a different approach to it that I think is different approach to it that I think is different approach to it that I think is so helpful and the other thing you're so helpful and the other thing you're so helpful and the other thing you're doing just to accentuate that is you're doing just to accentuate that is you're doing just to accentuate that is you're giving Christians language to explain giving Christians language to explain giving Christians language to explain things to their non-Christian friends things to their non-Christian friends things to their non-Christian friends right so when they're out on the golf right so when they're out on the golf right so when they're out on the golf course when they're hanging out of the course when they're hanging out of the course when they're hanging out of the game that kind of thing they're like oh game that kind of thing they're like oh game that kind of thing they're like oh you're a Buddhist okay now I have a you're a Buddhist okay now I have a you're a Buddhist okay now I have a framework to be able to talk to you framework to be able to talk to you framework to be able to talk to you about it that's great yeah and and I about it that's great yeah and and I about it that's great yeah and and I think that's part of our part of our job think that's part of our part of our job think that's part of our part of our job as communicators and leaders is to not as communicators and leaders is to not as communicators and leaders is to not only show people what to think but how only show people what to think but how only show people what to think but how to think and if you can you can you can to think and if you can you can you can to think and if you can you can you can explain something enough that it gets explain something enough that it gets explain something enough that it gets into people's brains they'll go you know into people's brains they'll go you know into people's brains they'll go you know like if I get up and speak on evil and like if I get up and speak on evil and like if I get up and speak on evil and suffering and let's say I preached a suffering and let's say I preached a suffering and let's say I preached a sermon on evil and suffering six months sermon on evil and suffering six months sermon on evil and suffering six months ago and I'm it comes back up again in ago and I'm it comes back up again in ago and I'm it comes back up again in the text and I'm talking about it again the text and I'm talking about it again the text and I'm talking about it again I might use a similar illustration to I might use a similar illustration to I might use a similar illustration to make the same point that you know if you make the same point that you know if you make the same point that you know if you use evil suffering to argue against God use evil suffering to argue against God use evil suffering to argue against God that's actually a faulty logic because that's actually a faulty logic because that's actually a faulty logic because you need the category called evil in you need the category called evil in you need the category called evil in order to argue that God doesn't exist order to argue that God doesn't exist order to argue that God doesn't exist but where did you get the category but where did you get the category but where did you get the category called evil if God didn't give it to you called evil if God didn't give it to you called evil if God didn't give it to you it wouldn't evolve just from animalistic it wouldn't evolve just from animalistic it wouldn't evolve just from animalistic instincts blah and you could go through instincts blah and you could go through instincts blah and you could go through this AR and once they've heard it two or this AR and once they've heard it two or this AR and once they've heard it two or three times that sticks in their brain three times that sticks in their brain three times that sticks in their brain like oh next time my friend says God like oh next time my friend says God like oh next time my friend says God doesn't exist because there's too much doesn't exist because there's too much doesn't exist because there's too much evil I'm gonna use that argument that he evil I'm gonna use that argument that he evil I'm gonna use that argument that he used and you're helping equip them how used and you're helping equip them how used and you're helping equip them how to think not just what to think and I to think not just what to think and I to think not just what to think and I think that's part of our job you know

think that's part of our job you know think that's part of our job you know man well you and I are going to do a man well you and I are going to do a man well you and I are going to do a deeper dive on that at some point but deeper dive on that at some point but deeper dive on that at some point but that is so so rich Mark I want to ask that is so so rich Mark I want to ask that is so so rich Mark I want to ask you because one of the FAQs I get in my you because one of the FAQs I get in my you because one of the FAQs I get in my DMs all the time are from people who are DMs all the time are from people who are DMs all the time are from people who are contemplating a job move and it is not contemplating a job move and it is not contemplating a job move and it is not typical for a founding lead pastor of a typical for a founding lead pastor of a typical for a founding lead pastor of a large Church to go and join the staff as large Church to go and join the staff as large Church to go and join the staff as the non senior pastor of another church the non senior pastor of another church the non senior pastor of another church you made that move yeah we talked about you made that move yeah we talked about you made that move yeah we talked about that a lot when you were weighing it that a lot when you were weighing it that a lot when you were weighing it what's it been why did you do it and what's it been why did you do it and what's it been why did you do it and what's it been like yeah uh so I mean what's it been like yeah uh so I mean what's it been like yeah uh so I mean the easy answer is God yeah sure right the easy answer is God yeah sure right the easy answer is God yeah sure right and and and and how I discerned it you and and and and how I discerned it you and and and and how I discerned it you know is coming to people like you my know is coming to people like you my know is coming to people like you my friends who are wise and they think and friends who are wise and they think and friends who are wise and they think and they're spirit-led and they can help me they're spirit-led and they can help me they're spirit-led and they can help me think through these big decisions in think through these big decisions in think through these big decisions in life um I think my personality is such life um I think my personality is such life um I think my personality is such that I'm up for the next adventure uh that I'm up for the next adventure uh that I'm up for the next adventure uh even when I planted our church um I even when I planted our church um I even when I planted our church um I don't think anyone knowing my don't think anyone knowing my don't think anyone knowing my personality um not that I have ADHD or personality um not that I have ADHD or personality um not that I have ADHD or anything like that I I don't um it's anything like that I I don't um it's anything like that I I don't um it's just I I'm I'm I'm open to whatever and just I I'm I'm I'm open to whatever and just I I'm I'm I'm open to whatever and I always would say this to our church I always would say this to our church I always would say this to our church yes I started this church yes I started this church yes I started this church yes I'm here for now but I'm not yes I'm here for now but I'm not yes I'm here for now but I'm not promising you the rest of my life I'm promising you the rest of my life I'm promising you the rest of my life I'm not necessarily saying I'm going to be not necessarily saying I'm going to be not necessarily saying I'm going to be the guy who's here for 60 years uh I the guy who's here for 60 years uh I the guy who's here for 60 years uh I Never Promised anyone that and I was Never Promised anyone that and I was Never Promised anyone that and I was always open to if God spoke to me and my always open to if God spoke to me and my always open to if God spoke to me and my family and showed us that something else family and showed us that something else family and showed us that something else was happen then we'll follow that and was happen then we'll follow that and was happen then we'll follow that and see where it goes Life's Too Short um see where it goes Life's Too Short um see where it goes Life's Too Short um and if if Jesus is calling you to

and if if Jesus is calling you to and if if Jesus is calling you to something great I mean but you got to something great I mean but you got to something great I mean but you got to remember like the foundation of my life remember like the foundation of my life remember like the foundation of my life I I got married uh 6 months after we got I I got married uh 6 months after we got I I got married uh 6 months after we got married we moved from Toronto to married we moved from Toronto to married we moved from Toronto to Vancouver away from everybody we knew Vancouver away from everybody we knew Vancouver away from everybody we knew right so for Americans that's like mov right so for Americans that's like mov right so for Americans that's like mov from Toronto to LA right so New York to from Toronto to LA right so New York to from Toronto to LA right so New York to LA it was that kind of a move yeah so no LA it was that kind of a move yeah so no LA it was that kind of a move yeah so no friends no family no I didn't know friends no family no I didn't know friends no family no I didn't know anybody nobody's uncles friends whatever anybody nobody's uncles friends whatever anybody nobody's uncles friends whatever nothing my wife and I got married we got nothing my wife and I got married we got nothing my wife and I got married we got in a car we moved across the country we in a car we moved across the country we in a car we moved across the country we made a life we went to school we got made a life we went to school we got made a life we went to school we got jobs we grinded it out uh we planted a jobs we grinded it out uh we planted a jobs we grinded it out uh we planted a church God did amazing things and after church God did amazing things and after church God did amazing things and after 18 years God through a whole bunch of 18 years God through a whole bunch of 18 years God through a whole bunch of things said okay now it's time for the things said okay now it's time for the things said okay now it's time for the next adventure and Bayside is the place next adventure and Bayside is the place next adventure and Bayside is the place where my heart was moving to war because where my heart was moving to war because where my heart was moving to war because of Rey and the team and there was this of Rey and the team and there was this of Rey and the team and there was this great vision of like hey this is the great vision of like hey this is the great vision of like hey this is the next phase of your life and again I next phase of your life and again I next phase of your life and again I don't I don't move down there and say don't I don't move down there and say don't I don't move down there and say hey guys I'm gonna be here for you know hey guys I'm gonna be here for you know hey guys I'm gonna be here for you know the next 60 years of my life either you the next 60 years of my life either you the next 60 years of my life either you never make those promises you assume never make those promises you assume never make those promises you assume you're going to build a life and be you're going to build a life and be you're going to build a life and be there but if Jesus shows up in your there but if Jesus shows up in your there but if Jesus shows up in your bedroom and says okay Carrie you know bedroom and says okay Carrie you know bedroom and says okay Carrie you know time for the new thing you got to follow time for the new thing you got to follow time for the new thing you got to follow that and trust it and that's that's what that and trust it and that's that's what that and trust it and that's that's what happened in this case and there was a happened in this case and there was a happened in this case and there was a lot not not everyone understood it I lot not not everyone understood it I lot not not everyone understood it I mean I had a hundred staff uh stretched mean I had a hundred staff uh stretched mean I had a hundred staff uh stretched across eight campuses across Canada from across eight campuses across Canada from across eight campuses across Canada from Vancouver to Vancouver to Vancouver to Toronto um and nobody saw it coming me Toronto um and nobody saw it coming me Toronto um and nobody saw it coming me and the board were great me and the and the board were great me and the and the board were great me and the church were great me and the staff were church were great me and the staff were church were great me and the staff were great there was no scandals there was

great there was no scandals there was great there was no scandals there was nothing weird it was literally like me nothing weird it was literally like me nothing weird it was literally like me and my family feel called to the next and my family feel called to the next and my family feel called to the next phase of our life phase of our life phase of our life you know and so that's what we did you know and so that's what we did you know and so that's what we did trusting that God is going to catch that trusting that God is going to catch that trusting that God is going to catch that church love that church provide for that church love that church provide for that church love that church provide for that church I'll help in any way I can of you church I'll help in any way I can of you church I'll help in any way I can of you know helped along the way with know helped along the way with know helped along the way with leadership decisions and all that kind leadership decisions and all that kind leadership decisions and all that kind of stuff and it's like want the best for of stuff and it's like want the best for of stuff and it's like want the best for them they're killing it they're them they're killing it they're them they're killing it they're continuing they're great so it's not continuing they're great so it's not continuing they're great so it's not like you're leaving something and it like you're leaving something and it like you're leaving something and it dies you do what you can but you also dies you do what you can but you also dies you do what you can but you also don't feel the overwhelming burden of oh don't feel the overwhelming burden of oh don't feel the overwhelming burden of oh my goodness this all weighs on me you my goodness this all weighs on me you my goodness this all weighs on me you know you can't have that you said know you can't have that you said know you can't have that you said something in passing that I just want to something in passing that I just want to something in passing that I just want to underscore and maybe there's more there underscore and maybe there's more there underscore and maybe there's more there because you're right I mean we we always because you're right I mean we we always because you're right I mean we we always in Christian circles it's like well God in Christian circles it's like well God in Christian circles it's like well God called me away and sometimes that can be called me away and sometimes that can be called me away and sometimes that can be like oh there was a scandal brewing and like oh there was a scandal brewing and like oh there was a scandal brewing and you know God Called Me Away there wasn't you know God Called Me Away there wasn't you know God Called Me Away there wasn't in your case you could have easily had in your case you could have easily had in your case you could have easily had another 20 years at Village Church in BC another 20 years at Village Church in BC another 20 years at Village Church in BC which was great um but you said which was great um but you said which was great um but you said something that resonated with me because something that resonated with me because something that resonated with me because it's one of the reasons I stepped out of it's one of the reasons I stepped out of it's one of the reasons I stepped out of the lead Pastor seat 10 years ago he the lead Pastor seat 10 years ago he the lead Pastor seat 10 years ago he said I felt my heart moov moving to said I felt my heart moov moving to said I felt my heart moov moving to Sacramento and you had been there you Sacramento and you had been there you Sacramento and you had been there you had gotten to know Ray you'd preached had gotten to know Ray you'd preached had gotten to know Ray you'd preached there numerous times you'd done there numerous times you'd done there numerous times you'd done conferences and you felt a heart shift conferences and you felt a heart shift conferences and you felt a heart shift and people ask me all the time why did and people ask me all the time why did and people ask me all the time why did you step out of the lead Pastor seat at you step out of the lead Pastor seat at you step out of the lead Pastor seat at 50 you know that was you were so young 50 you know that was you were so young 50 you know that was you were so young and you'd started the church and all and you'd started the church and all and you'd started the church and all that stuff but one of the reasons not that stuff but one of the reasons not that stuff but one of the reasons not the only reason was I felt my heart the only reason was I felt my heart the only reason was I felt my heart moving into this into leadership moving into this into leadership moving into this into leadership development into speaking into the heart

development into speaking into the heart development into speaking into the heart of leaders and again we're not going to of leaders and again we're not going to of leaders and again we're not going to follow our hearts and you do what you follow our hearts and you do what you follow our hearts and you do what you love it's not that kind of advice but I love it's not that kind of advice but I love it's not that kind of advice but I think there is something and and think think there is something and and think think there is something and and think about it from the opposite perspective about it from the opposite perspective about it from the opposite perspective if your heart isn't in your job anymore if your heart isn't in your job anymore if your heart isn't in your job anymore in your call in your assignment are you in your call in your assignment are you in your call in your assignment are you going to do a great job right the answer going to do a great job right the answer going to do a great job right the answer is probably not what what what did you is probably not what what what did you is probably not what what what did you like can you talk a little bit more like can you talk a little bit more like can you talk a little bit more about feeling your heart shift either about feeling your heart shift either about feeling your heart shift either away or toward something because I think away or toward something because I think away or toward something because I think that's big yeah that's good I I think that's big yeah that's good I I think that's big yeah that's good I I think that that that think that for my think that for my think that for my wiring um my creativity my wiring um my creativity my wiring um my creativity my entrepreneurial spirit all the things entrepreneurial spirit all the things entrepreneurial spirit all the things that served me well for the 12 and a that served me well for the 12 and a that served me well for the 12 and a half years I was leading Village um they half years I was leading Village um they half years I was leading Village um they those things both evolved into different those things both evolved into different those things both evolved into different kinds of disciplines and different kinds kinds of disciplines and different kinds kinds of disciplines and different kinds of loves and also in a sense you know of loves and also in a sense you know of loves and also in a sense you know weren't getting the expression or the weren't getting the expression or the weren't getting the expression or the use you know because what gets you use you know because what gets you use you know because what gets you somewhere isn't what can take you to the somewhere isn't what can take you to the somewhere isn't what can take you to the next level right and so it's like almost next level right and so it's like almost next level right and so it's like almost like became a thing where I built this like became a thing where I built this like became a thing where I built this thing and now it was like my passions thing and now it was like my passions thing and now it was like my passions started to go elsewhere and it was like started to go elsewhere and it was like started to go elsewhere and it was like you know to go down to an existing you know to go down to an existing you know to go down to an existing church that has amazing infrastructure church that has amazing infrastructure church that has amazing infrastructure amazing staff amazing people an amazing amazing staff amazing people an amazing amazing staff amazing people an amazing founder and leader and kind of get into founder and leader and kind of get into founder and leader and kind of get into some other you know Flex some other some other you know Flex some other some other you know Flex some other muscles or work some other muscles I muscles or work some other muscles I muscles or work some other muscles I flex is probably a bad bad term

flex is probably a bad bad term flex is probably a bad bad term especially given my workout schedule especially given my workout schedule especially given my workout schedule which is zero um work some other muscles which is zero um work some other muscles which is zero um work some other muscles in life you know uh writing more having in life you know uh writing more having in life you know uh writing more having more time because there's you know I'm more time because there's you know I'm more time because there's you know I'm not you know I'm not having to play uh not you know I'm not having to play uh not you know I'm not having to play uh the role that I was playing at Village the role that I was playing at Village the role that I was playing at Village so have more time to do the writing do so have more time to do the writing do so have more time to do the writing do the speaking um and be able to you know the speaking um and be able to you know the speaking um and be able to you know oversee preachers and teachers and some oversee preachers and teachers and some oversee preachers and teachers and some of the things that were were the of the things that were were the of the things that were were the opportunity in front of me they were opportunity in front of me they were opportunity in front of me they were like oh these are the kinds of things I like oh these are the kinds of things I like oh these are the kinds of things I want to do for the next 10 or 15 years want to do for the next 10 or 15 years want to do for the next 10 or 15 years of my life it's very rare for a senior of my life it's very rare for a senior of my life it's very rare for a senior leader a lead Pastor to be in a place leader a lead Pastor to be in a place leader a lead Pastor to be in a place where they are the lead and then they go where they are the lead and then they go where they are the lead and then they go to an associate position a secondary to an associate position a secondary to an associate position a secondary position and that's something you did so position and that's something you did so position and that's something you did so maybe I need to ask Ry this but I'm maybe I need to ask Ry this but I'm maybe I need to ask Ry this but I'm curious from your perspective what did curious from your perspective what did curious from your perspective what did Ray Johnson the senior pastor founding Ray Johnson the senior pastor founding Ray Johnson the senior pastor founding pastor of Bayside have to do to make pastor of Bayside have to do to make pastor of Bayside have to do to make that attractive for someone like you and that attractive for someone like you and that attractive for someone like you and you've been there two or three years now you've been there two or three years now you've been there two or three years now so it's obviously worked out okay yeah so it's obviously worked out okay yeah so it's obviously worked out okay yeah no it's a great question he and I think no it's a great question he and I think no it's a great question he and I think it's it's the kind of question exactly I it's it's the kind of question exactly I it's it's the kind of question exactly I mean you're a genius at what you do and mean you're a genius at what you do and mean you're a genius at what you do and Mining out the right questions this is Mining out the right questions this is Mining out the right questions this is why you're successful in what you do and why you're successful in what you do and why you're successful in what you do and when I meet leaders like you and they when I meet leaders like you and they when I meet leaders like you and they get around Rey you know Ry wants to talk get around Rey you know Ry wants to talk get around Rey you know Ry wants to talk about all the things he wants to talk about all the things he wants to talk about all the things he wants to talk about and they just keep coming back to about and they just keep coming back to about and they just keep coming back to this kind of question right which is this kind of question right which is this kind of question right which is like hey hey yeah yeah yeah whatever like hey hey yeah yeah yeah whatever like hey hey yeah yeah yeah whatever listen here's the question how did you listen here's the question how did you listen here's the question how did you build something where all of a sudden build something where all of a sudden build something where all of a sudden all of this Talent has come from All all of this Talent has come from All all of this Talent has come from All Over America or Canada in this case and

Over America or Canada in this case and Over America or Canada in this case and come down to work under you on this come down to work under you on this come down to work under you on this amazing church because what they do our amazing church because what they do our amazing church because what they do our model is a little bit different most model is a little bit different most model is a little bit different most most not every but most um excuse me most not every but most um excuse me most not every but most um excuse me multi-site churches in America that are multi-site churches in America that are multi-site churches in America that are doing you know the kinds of things we're doing you know the kinds of things we're doing you know the kinds of things we're doing a lot of them lean into video and doing a lot of them lean into video and doing a lot of them lean into video and that's what we did Village was a video that's what we did Village was a video that's what we did Village was a video campus model um and because you can you campus model um and because you can you campus model um and because you can you know you can you can leverage the know you can you can leverage the know you can you can leverage the communicator you can you know save money communicator you can you know save money communicator you can you know save money you can exponentially you know do all you can exponentially you know do all you can exponentially you know do all these different things um and so but our these different things um and so but our these different things um and so but our mod is different at Bayside it's all mod is different at Bayside it's all mod is different at Bayside it's all live preachers which means you need nine live preachers which means you need nine live preachers which means you need nine great like worldclass communicators SL great like worldclass communicators SL great like worldclass communicators SL leers at all these campuses because leers at all these campuses because leers at all these campuses because there's no video so the question is how there's no video so the question is how there's no video so the question is how did he get this guy to move from Atlanta did he get this guy to move from Atlanta did he get this guy to move from Atlanta this guy to move from Canada this guy to this guy to move from Canada this guy to this guy to move from Canada this guy to move from Oklahoma this guy to move from move from Oklahoma this guy to move from move from Oklahoma this guy to move from all these PE La we've all come together all these PE La we've all come together all these PE La we've all come together we all sit in this room and whenever a we all sit in this room and whenever a we all sit in this room and whenever a leader walks in the room they're like leader walks in the room they're like leader walks in the room they're like any of these people could lead a massive any of these people could lead a massive any of these people could lead a massive mega church here what are they all doing mega church here what are they all doing mega church here what are they all doing here you know and so there is exactly here you know and so there is exactly here you know and so there is exactly what you just said you should ask Ry what you just said you should ask Ry what you just said you should ask Ry what the magic sauce is I would say the what the magic sauce is I would say the what the magic sauce is I would say the thing that pops for me I mean there's a thing that pops for me I mean there's a thing that pops for me I mean there's a million things about Ry but one of them million things about Ry but one of them million things about Ry but one of them is humility um the guy does not take is humility um the guy does not take is humility um the guy does not take himself too serious he is fun we work himself too serious he is fun we work himself too serious he is fun we work hard and play hard he builds a culture hard and play hard he builds a culture hard and play hard he builds a culture of like man we're in this together we're of like man we're in this together we're of like man we're in this together we're serving Jesus and no one's you know I'm serving Jesus and no one's you know I'm serving Jesus and no one's you know I'm Ray Johnson I'm gonna give you the

Ray Johnson I'm gonna give you the Ray Johnson I'm gonna give you the secret like there's no if you come into secret like there's no if you come into secret like there's no if you come into that room and it's cool because our room that room and it's cool because our room that room and it's cool because our room hires any new lead passer that we're hires any new lead passer that we're hires any new lead passer that we're bringing on they don't they don't get bringing on they don't they don't get bringing on they don't they don't get hired unless the room says this is gonna hired unless the room says this is gonna hired unless the room says this is gonna be a this is gonna be one of us you know be a this is gonna be one of us you know be a this is gonna be one of us you know um and if you come into that room with um and if you come into that room with um and if you come into that room with any arrogance and any like I'm a big any arrogance and any like I'm a big any arrogance and any like I'm a big deal I've accomplished some things deal I've accomplished some things deal I've accomplished some things you'll be spit out so fast you know you'll be spit out so fast you know you'll be spit out so fast you know because it's just we have no room for because it's just we have no room for because it's just we have no room for that but I think one of the things that that but I think one of the things that that but I think one of the things that attracts people like myself is is the attracts people like myself is is the attracts people like myself is is the the camaraderie of the team it's like the camaraderie of the team it's like the camaraderie of the team it's like when you're the head of the head of the when you're the head of the head of the when you're the head of the head of the head of something you know I I love that head of something you know I I love that head of something you know I I love that role I'm comfortable in that role but role I'm comfortable in that role but role I'm comfortable in that role but you don't have like the colleagues to be you don't have like the colleagues to be you don't have like the colleagues to be like what about this what about this like what about this what about this like what about this what about this what about this what about this and and what about this what about this and and what about this what about this and and you know you're little you can get a you know you're little you can get a you know you're little you can get a little isolated and to come down and little isolated and to come down and little isolated and to come down and have a team that you're like like we do have a team that you're like like we do have a team that you're like like we do sermon prep together we make huge sermon prep together we make huge sermon prep together we make huge decisions together we're together in the decisions together we're together in the decisions together we're together in the room every week going what about this room every week going what about this room every week going what about this what about that we're a team that's in what about that we're a team that's in what about that we're a team that's in this thing together and that's one of this thing together and that's one of this thing together and that's one of the magic ex sauces of what Ry has built the magic ex sauces of what Ry has built the magic ex sauces of what Ry has built is you want to be in that room you want is you want to be in that room you want is you want to be in that room you want to be part of that team so I think that to be part of that team so I think that to be part of that team so I think that was part of it the other part is just was part of it the other part is just was part of it the other part is just working with Ry and learning everything working with Ry and learning everything working with Ry and learning everything I can from Ry I mean he's a leadership I can from Ry I mean he's a leadership I can from Ry I mean he's a leadership machine um he's built something machine um he's built something machine um he's built something incredible and he's done it in a way incredible and he's done it in a way incredible and he's done it in a way that it's like any mid 40 year old that it's like any mid 40 year old that it's like any mid 40 year old leader should be going I want to get leader should be going I want to get leader should be going I want to get around him to take myself to the next around him to take myself to the next around him to take myself to the next level you know to just say I started a level you know to just say I started a level you know to just say I started a church and over the course of 12 years church and over the course of 12 years church and over the course of 12 years it did it did it did this it's like to me like I didn't go I

this it's like to me like I didn't go I this it's like to me like I didn't go I mean you know me car I didn't grow up in mean you know me car I didn't grow up in mean you know me car I didn't grow up in the church right so yeah I don't like I the church right so yeah I don't like I the church right so yeah I don't like I don't have this like oh the church is so don't have this like oh the church is so don't have this like oh the church is so so important that like this is the most so important that like this is the most so important that like this is the most important job in the world being a important job in the world being a important job in the world being a pastor and you know you know how we get pastor and you know you know how we get pastor and you know you know how we get go to conferences we all scratch oursel go to conferences we all scratch oursel go to conferences we all scratch oursel on the back as if we're the most on the back as if we're the most on the back as if we're the most important people in the world I remember important people in the world I remember important people in the world I remember I remember Larry Osborne telling a story I remember Larry Osborne telling a story I remember Larry Osborne telling a story about that and he said he he went to a a about that and he said he he went to a a about that and he said he he went to a a pastor conference and they were all pastor conference and they were all pastor conference and they were all talking about how they're beat up all talking about how they're beat up all talking about how they're beat up all the time and how hard their life is and the time and how hard their life is and the time and how hard their life is and it is a tough job I mean we we know it it is a tough job I mean we we know it it is a tough job I mean we we know it we do funerals and weddings and all the we do funerals and weddings and all the we do funerals and weddings and all the awful things that happen in life that we awful things that happen in life that we awful things that happen in life that we have to shepher people through not have to shepher people through not have to shepher people through not weddings of course weddings are fun um weddings of course weddings are fun um weddings of course weddings are fun um but and uh and he said you know after but and uh and he said you know after but and uh and he said you know after two days of this he went back to his two days of this he went back to his two days of this he went back to his small group and he kind of said oh my small group and he kind of said oh my small group and he kind of said oh my life is so tough as a pastor it's just life is so tough as a pastor it's just life is so tough as a pastor it's just so and he had a you know there was a so and he had a you know there was a so and he had a you know there was a police officer that was in his small police officer that was in his small police officer that was in his small group and walked up to him and basically group and walked up to him and basically group and walked up to him and basically said Hey listen you don't you don't know said Hey listen you don't you don't know said Hey listen you don't you don't know what I had to deal with with a what I had to deal with with a what I had to deal with with a 14-year-old old girl this week so don't 14-year-old old girl this week so don't 14-year-old old girl this week so don't even come to me and talk to me about even come to me and talk to me about even come to me and talk to me about your little you know leadership meeting your little you know leadership meeting your little you know leadership meeting that you had you know and it was like that you had you know and it was like that you had you know and it was like perspective like oh my gosh man people perspective like oh my gosh man people perspective like oh my gosh man people deal with a lot in the real world and um deal with a lot in the real world and um deal with a lot in the real world and um anyway so I just don't think I had this anyway so I just don't think I had this anyway so I just don't think I had this like oh I'm so speci it was like Hey God like oh I'm so speci it was like Hey God like oh I'm so speci it was like Hey God did this cool thing you know and now did this cool thing you know and now did this cool thing you know and now it's time for the next thing you know it's time for the next thing you know it's time for the next thing you know and so uh and so uh and so uh pragmatic in one sense and just like hey pragmatic in one sense and just like hey pragmatic in one sense and just like hey let's go chase the passion and this is let's go chase the passion and this is let's go chase the passion and this is what God has for us next and as a family what God has for us next and as a family what God has for us next and as a family all my three girls and my wife were in

all my three girls and my wife were in all my three girls and my wife were in and they were like this is the next and they were like this is the next and they were like this is the next phase let's go get it as long as we're phase let's go get it as long as we're phase let's go get it as long as we're together as a tribe we can go get together as a tribe we can go get together as a tribe we can go get anything and so that was that was a anything and so that was that was a anything and so that was that was a beautiful part of it the other thing Ry beautiful part of it the other thing Ry beautiful part of it the other thing Ry does really well just to pull up one does really well just to pull up one does really well just to pull up one more skill that I think a lot of us more skill that I think a lot of us more skill that I think a lot of us could learn from Ray does not have as could learn from Ray does not have as could learn from Ray does not have as you mentioned a lot of ego but the way you mentioned a lot of ego but the way you mentioned a lot of ego but the way that that shows up is he really that that shows up is he really that that shows up is he really celebrates the gifting of other people celebrates the gifting of other people celebrates the gifting of other people he's not threatened by people with big he's not threatened by people with big he's not threatened by people with big gifts and he will celebrate and applaud gifts and he will celebrate and applaud gifts and he will celebrate and applaud other people's giftedness and that is other people's giftedness and that is other people's giftedness and that is very rare from people who sit in the top very rare from people who sit in the top very rare from people who sit in the top seat 100% And that that's really good seat 100% And that that's really good seat 100% And that that's really good that you put your finger on that this that you put your finger on that this that you put your finger on that this guy is the most encouraging he wrote a guy is the most encouraging he wrote a guy is the most encouraging he wrote a book called The Hope quotient he's all book called The Hope quotient he's all book called The Hope quotient he's all about hope he's all about Hope and about hope he's all about Hope and about hope he's all about Hope and momentum hope encouraging it's momentum hope encouraging it's momentum hope encouraging it's ridiculous so encouraging he okay so ridiculous so encouraging he okay so ridiculous so encouraging he okay so I'll give you an example of this so the I'll give you an example of this so the I'll give you an example of this so the book comes out problem of life it it book comes out problem of life it it book comes out problem of life it it comes out February 18 to the rest of the comes out February 18 to the rest of the comes out February 18 to the rest of the world but he was like no we need to do a world but he was like no we need to do a world but he was like no we need to do a a sermon series on this right now let's a sermon series on this right now let's a sermon series on this right now let's get it from zeran so we ordered get it from zeran so we ordered get it from zeran so we ordered thousands of copies to the church and we thousands of copies to the church and we thousands of copies to the church and we started a sermon series on it just this started a sermon series on it just this started a sermon series on it just this past week and uh I mean Carrie this guy past week and uh I mean Carrie this guy past week and uh I mean Carrie this guy is up on stage he's like you need to buy is up on stage he's like you need to buy is up on stage he's like you need to buy so here's what we've done we've made it so here's what we've done we've made it so here's what we've done we've made it so it's you don't buy one you have to so it's you don't buy one you have to so it's you don't buy one you have to buy two so two for 25 and then 10 for buy two so two for 25 and then 10 for buy two so two for 25 and then 10 for 100 and then and you got to get it to 100 and then and you got to get it to 100 and then and you got to get it to your friends this is the greatest thing your friends this is the greatest thing your friends this is the greatest thing I have read in the history of reading I have read in the history of reading I have read in the history of reading and he's just like and he honestly he's and he's just like and he honestly he's and he's just like and he honestly he's so so so he means it he actually is the biggest

he means it he actually is the biggest he means it he actually is the biggest cheerleader for everyone around him not cheerleader for everyone around him not cheerleader for everyone around him not himself he won't cheerlead himself but himself he won't cheerlead himself but himself he won't cheerlead himself but it cheerlead everybody else and he's it cheerlead everybody else and he's it cheerlead everybody else and he's totally sincere he looked at me one day totally sincere he looked at me one day totally sincere he looked at me one day literally we're in this meeting I don't literally we're in this meeting I don't literally we're in this meeting I don't what we're talking about and he says what we're talking about and he says what we're talking about and he says mark this actually before I worked there mark this actually before I worked there mark this actually before I worked there he's like Mark do you know that this is he's like Mark do you know that this is he's like Mark do you know that this is the greatest staff in the history of the the greatest staff in the history of the the greatest staff in the history of the church that God that God has ever put church that God that God has ever put church that God that God has ever put together and I'm like I'm like start together and I'm like I'm like start together and I'm like I'm like start laughing CU I'm like well 2 is pretty laughing CU I'm like well 2 is pretty laughing CU I'm like well 2 is pretty good you know I'm like I'm sure there's good you know I'm like I'm sure there's good you know I'm like I'm sure there's some underground movement in China where some underground movement in China where some underground movement in China where there's some great pastors going on and there's some great pastors going on and there's some great pastors going on and he was dead Ser he thinks this is the he was dead Ser he thinks this is the he was dead Ser he thinks this is the greatest staff the Holy Spirit has ever greatest staff the Holy Spirit has ever greatest staff the Holy Spirit has ever constructed in the history of the church constructed in the history of the church constructed in the history of the church and he's dead serious and it's like bro and he's dead serious and it's like bro and he's dead serious and it's like bro you can't you can't you can't you can't you can't you can't you can't you can't you can't manufacture that kind of optimism and manufacture that kind of optimism and manufacture that kind of optimism and encouragement and spirit and I agree encouragement and spirit and I agree encouragement and spirit and I agree with you that is his huge magic sauce with you that is his huge magic sauce with you that is his huge magic sauce all right shout out Ray Johnston am all right shout out Ray Johnston am all right shout out Ray Johnston am hopefully he hears this he'll probably hopefully he hears this he'll probably hopefully he hears this he'll probably stopped listening by now but anyway no stopped listening by now but anyway no stopped listening by now but anyway no he'll post it and say this is the he'll post it and say this is the he'll post it and say this is the greatest podast greatest podast ever greatest podast greatest podast ever greatest podast greatest podast ever yeah oh that's great hey yeah we're yeah oh that's great hey yeah we're yeah oh that's great hey yeah we're going to talk about your book but I mean going to talk about your book but I mean going to talk about your book but I mean you've written three in the last eight you've written three in the last eight you've written three in the last eight years which is an A and they're not like years which is an A and they're not like years which is an A and they're not like little trit books I mean thing that little trit books I mean thing that little trit books I mean thing that blows me away about your preaching and blows me away about your preaching and blows me away about your preaching and also your writing and your leadership is also your writing and your leadership is also your writing and your leadership is I'm fairly well read I've read a lot of I'm fairly well read I've read a lot of I'm fairly well read I've read a lot of people spent too many years in un people spent too many years in un people spent too many years in un well you're quoting people I've never well you're quoting people I've never well you're quoting people I've never heard of and quoting them from memory I

heard of and quoting them from memory I heard of and quoting them from memory I mean philosophers theologians uh you can mean philosophers theologians uh you can mean philosophers theologians uh you can pretty much quote most of Cs Lewis's pretty much quote most of Cs Lewis's pretty much quote most of Cs Lewis's work uh I mean live another 30 years work uh I mean live another 30 years work uh I mean live another 30 years you'll you'll be quoting uh CS Lewis to you'll you'll be quoting uh CS Lewis to you'll you'll be quoting uh CS Lewis to the extent Keller could from meory the extent Keller could from meory the extent Keller could from meory quoting CS Lewis to CS Lewis potentially quoting CS Lewis to CS Lewis potentially quoting CS Lewis to CS Lewis potentially 30 years in 30 years exactly so but I 30 years in 30 years exactly so but I 30 years in 30 years exactly so but I wanna I want to talk about your wanna I want to talk about your wanna I want to talk about your personality CU you talk about this a lot personality CU you talk about this a lot personality CU you talk about this a lot in your preaching you know you have in your preaching you know you have in your preaching you know you have tourettes you have diagnos ible OCD uh tourettes you have diagnos ible OCD uh tourettes you have diagnos ible OCD uh you say you're not ADHD you do have a you say you're not ADHD you do have a you say you're not ADHD you do have a hyperfocus but I mean you kind of Follow hyperfocus but I mean you kind of Follow hyperfocus but I mean you kind of Follow Your pth you got a unique personality Your pth you got a unique personality Your pth you got a unique personality dude like you really do and I want to dude like you really do and I want to dude like you really do and I want to talk talk talk about how those things which as a child about how those things which as a child about how those things which as a child would be seen as a liability right this would be seen as a liability right this would be seen as a liability right this kid's got tourettes he's dropping F kid's got tourettes he's dropping F kid's got tourettes he's dropping F bombs uh can't he's socially you know bombs uh can't he's socially you know bombs uh can't he's socially you know doesn't 100% sit in the classroom doesn't 100% sit in the classroom doesn't 100% sit in the classroom properly uh OCD can be really properly uh OCD can be really properly uh OCD can be really challenging at times can you describe challenging at times can you describe challenging at times can you describe the conditions you struggle with and the conditions you struggle with and the conditions you struggle with and then maybe how that gift has actually then maybe how that gift has actually then maybe how that gift has actually been leveraged for Ministry yeah that's been leveraged for Ministry yeah that's been leveraged for Ministry yeah that's great um man yeah so um uh when my great um man yeah so um uh when my great um man yeah so um uh when my parents got divorced uh I got tourettes parents got divorced uh I got tourettes parents got divorced uh I got tourettes when I was it was probably eight or nine when I was it was probably eight or nine when I was it was probably eight or nine years old the trauma of that uh years old the trauma of that uh years old the trauma of that uh experience uh gave me Tourette so the experience uh gave me Tourette so the experience uh gave me Tourette so the way break that down a little bit because way break that down a little bit because way break that down a little bit because like how does that happen I don't know I like how does that happen I don't know I like how does that happen I don't know I I didn't have it when I was a kid I didn't have it when I was a kid I didn't have it when I was a kid growing up and then my parents got divor growing up and then my parents got divor growing up and then my parents got divor I remember like the day I was probably I remember like the day I was probably I remember like the day I was probably seven or eight and they just brought me seven or eight and they just brought me seven or eight and they just brought me off the street I was hanging out with my

off the street I was hanging out with my off the street I was hanging out with my buddies and my dad you know my dad was a buddies and my dad you know my dad was a buddies and my dad you know my dad was a bit of a bit of a dead beat you know bit of a bit of a dead beat you know bit of a bit of a dead beat you know drank too much smoke smoked cigarettes drank too much smoke smoked cigarettes drank too much smoke smoked cigarettes smoked pipe sit and yell at the football smoked pipe sit and yell at the football smoked pipe sit and yell at the football game kind of deal my mom worked super game kind of deal my mom worked super game kind of deal my mom worked super hard same job since she was 18 years old hard same job since she was 18 years old hard same job since she was 18 years old to when she retired and she was 55 or to when she retired and she was 55 or to when she retired and she was 55 or something I mean just hard worker and he something I mean just hard worker and he something I mean just hard worker and he was just kind of all over the map was just kind of all over the map was just kind of all over the map couldn't keep a job so they got divorced couldn't keep a job so they got divorced couldn't keep a job so they got divorced all I remember from them is yelling and all I remember from them is yelling and all I remember from them is yelling and screaming you know they just didn't get screaming you know they just didn't get screaming you know they just didn't get along so the trauma of that experience along so the trauma of that experience along so the trauma of that experience of losing my like my dad leaving uh just of losing my like my dad leaving uh just of losing my like my dad leaving uh just triggered something in my brain it's triggered something in my brain it's triggered something in my brain it's like it broke my brain whatever so I like it broke my brain whatever so I like it broke my brain whatever so I started all these weird ticks and habits started all these weird ticks and habits started all these weird ticks and habits and all these things and it's all the and all these things and it's all the and all these things and it's all the classic stuff that if you look up classic stuff that if you look up classic stuff that if you look up Tourette's on YouTube it's swearing at Tourette's on YouTube it's swearing at Tourette's on YouTube it's swearing at people like people like people like f saying you know saying F bombs and S f saying you know saying F bombs and S f saying you know saying F bombs and S bombs and every bomb uh and just like bombs and every bomb uh and just like bombs and every bomb uh and just like sitting at a bus stop yelling at myself sitting at a bus stop yelling at myself sitting at a bus stop yelling at myself like weird noises ticks H like I you like weird noises ticks H like I you like weird noises ticks H like I you know playing with my hands and and know playing with my hands and and know playing with my hands and and hitting things certain amount of times hitting things certain amount of times hitting things certain amount of times and they where where it started to and they where where it started to and they where where it started to develop into um obsessive compulsive was develop into um obsessive compulsive was develop into um obsessive compulsive was my mentality and maybe this will connect my mentality and maybe this will connect my mentality and maybe this will connect to some people out there as I've shared to some people out there as I've shared to some people out there as I've shared this in preaching I've had so many this in preaching I've had so many this in preaching I've had so many people come up to me and go oh my people come up to me and go oh my people come up to me and go oh my goodness I never knew anyone else goodness I never knew anyone else goodness I never knew anyone else thought like this and me sharing it gave thought like this and me sharing it gave thought like this and me sharing it gave them permission to be broken so maybe them permission to be broken so maybe them permission to be broken so maybe that'll be some of your people too I that'll be some of your people too I that'll be some of your people too I don't know but it's like my mentality don't know but it's like my mentality don't know but it's like my mentality was if I didn't hit this you know table was if I didn't hit this you know table was if I didn't hit this you know table a certain amount of times then someone a certain amount of times then someone a certain amount of times then someone would get would get would get disease or a car crash would happen or disease or a car crash would happen or disease or a car crash would happen or if I didn't step over that crack on the if I didn't step over that crack on the if I didn't step over that crack on the sidewalk and hit three times down then

sidewalk and hit three times down then sidewalk and hit three times down then this would happen and that so just this would happen and that so just this would happen and that so just imagine that always on like not just imagine that always on like not just imagine that always on like not just once in a while like when you're in an once in a while like when you're in an once in a while like when you're in an airport you might smack something and airport you might smack something and airport you might smack something and then be like oh crap I should go smack then be like oh crap I should go smack then be like oh crap I should go smack that again so the plane doesn't like that again so the plane doesn't like that again so the plane doesn't like talk about that you know 14 hours a day talk about that you know 14 hours a day talk about that you know 14 hours a day every day and every moment you know I every day and every moment you know I every day and every moment you know I had this habit Carrie where I would so I had this habit Carrie where I would so I had this habit Carrie where I would so I was a smoker from the time I was in was a smoker from the time I was in was a smoker from the time I was in grade eight till I was 25 or something grade eight till I was 25 or something grade eight till I was 25 or something like that so I would go down I grw up in like that so I would go down I grw up in like that so I would go down I grw up in Toronto so always snowy in the winter I Toronto so always snowy in the winter I Toronto so always snowy in the winter I would fall down on my knees and bang my would fall down on my knees and bang my would fall down on my knees and bang my knees on the ground multiple times just knees on the ground multiple times just knees on the ground multiple times just so something bad wouldn't happen so in so something bad wouldn't happen so in so something bad wouldn't happen so in like a a 10-minute smoking session I like a a 10-minute smoking session I like a a 10-minute smoking session I would have gone and crashed down on my would have gone and crashed down on my would have gone and crashed down on my knees like five different times so my knees like five different times so my knees like five different times so my knees are like soaked with snow and knees are like soaked with snow and knees are like soaked with snow and water as I'm walking through high school water as I'm walking through high school water as I'm walking through high school like what a way to not to be cool in like what a way to not to be cool in like what a way to not to be cool in high school right I it's like but it's high school right I it's like but it's high school right I it's like but it's compulsive right like this is not it's compulsive right like this is not it's compulsive right like this is not it's like you have to do this it's almost like you have to do this it's almost like you have to do this it's almost involuntary involuntary involuntary yes yes and so all of that was kind of yes yes and so all of that was kind of yes yes and so all of that was kind of my uh my upbringing and what that did on my uh my upbringing and what that did on my uh my upbringing and what that did on the you know Malcolm Gladwell talks the you know Malcolm Gladwell talks the you know Malcolm Gladwell talks about the advantage of disadvantage you about the advantage of disadvantage you about the advantage of disadvantage you know the the idea that you know half the know the the idea that you know half the know the the idea that you know half the CEOs and most of these big companies are CEOs and most of these big companies are CEOs and most of these big companies are dyslexic and they have to find another dyslexic and they have to find another dyslexic and they have to find another way to succeed and that's not just it's way to succeed and that's not just it's way to succeed and that's not just it's not like they succeed in spite of their not like they succeed in spite of their not like they succeed in spite of their disability it's that they succeed disability it's that they succeed disability it's that they succeed because of it and I think what started because of it and I think what started because of it and I think what started to happen was my to happen was my to happen was my my brain started focusing in on certain my brain started focusing in on certain my brain started focusing in on certain things and becoming obsessive about I things and becoming obsessive about I things and becoming obsessive about I obsess about the Art and Science of

obsess about the Art and Science of obsess about the Art and Science of preaching yes right I don't I you know I preaching yes right I don't I you know I preaching yes right I don't I you know I don't I never walk up to a Pulpit half don't I never walk up to a Pulpit half don't I never walk up to a Pulpit half prepared without memorizing every turn prepared without memorizing every turn prepared without memorizing every turn of phrase every joke every every of phrase every joke every every of phrase every joke every every everything is thought through out loud everything is thought through out loud everything is thought through out loud methodically for hours upon hours upon methodically for hours upon hours upon methodically for hours upon hours upon hours and and I we talk about this in hours and and I we talk about this in hours and and I we talk about this in the course that for some pre and the course that for some pre and the course that for some pre and teachers and leaders out there the teachers and leaders out there the teachers and leaders out there the reason they're never going to move from reason they're never going to move from reason they're never going to move from good to Great is because they're just good to Great is because they're just good to Great is because they're just not willing to put in the time that's not willing to put in the time that's not willing to put in the time that's the bottom line it's not it's not even the bottom line it's not it's not even the bottom line it's not it's not even more complicated than that editorial more complicated than that editorial more complicated than that editorial comment you just said you memorize comment you just said you memorize comment you just said you memorize everything and you do you and I have everything and you do you and I have everything and you do you and I have radically different styles of radically different styles of radically different styles of preparation and we talk about it in our preparation and we talk about it in our preparation and we talk about it in our art of preaching course which we are art of preaching course which we are art of preaching course which we are redoing in 2025 we're updating it redoing in 2025 we're updating it redoing in 2025 we're updating it excited about that I'm very excited excited about that I'm very excited excited about that I'm very excited about that but um when you hear you about that but um when you hear you about that but um when you hear you deliver it you would think you made it deliver it you would think you made it deliver it you would think you made it up on the spot not all the research it's up on the spot not all the research it's up on the spot not all the research it's thoroughly researched but you're like thoroughly researched but you're like thoroughly researched but you're like this guy's just winging it he's fun he's this guy's just winging it he's fun he's this guy's just winging it he's fun he's like a he's like a comedian you know like a he's like a comedian you know like a he's like a comedian you know comedians you don't know like when you comedians you don't know like when you comedians you don't know like when you listen to Nate brety or somethingone listen to Nate brety or somethingone listen to Nate brety or somethingone like that you don't know that that's a like that you don't know that that's a like that you don't know that that's a whole routine that he's been mapping out whole routine that he's been mapping out whole routine that he's been mapping out for months for months for months days every turn of phrase every pause days every turn of phrase every pause days every turn of phrase every pause cuz it feels completely natural in the cuz it feels completely natural in the cuz it feels completely natural in the moment but you're like that so you've moment but you're like that so you've moment but you're like that so you've done all that but I mean watch two done all that but I mean watch two done all that but I mean watch two minutes of Mark's preaching and you'll minutes of Mark's preaching and you'll minutes of Mark's preaching and you'll know oh this guy is gifted but that's know oh this guy is gifted but that's know oh this guy is gifted but that's like the obsession is did that Obsession like the obsession is did that Obsession like the obsession is did that Obsession also go into research as well uh I think also go into research as well uh I think also go into research as well uh I think so I because you love reading you love

so I because you love reading you love so I because you love reading you love like two of your hobbies are reading and like two of your hobbies are reading and like two of your hobbies are reading and movies right you love movies love it movies right you love movies love it movies right you love movies love it love it the art of it I and and that's love it the art of it I and and that's love it the art of it I and and that's the thing about I mean come back to we the thing about I mean come back to we the thing about I mean come back to we not talk about preaching but I see not talk about preaching but I see not talk about preaching but I see preaching as uh it's it's it's writing preaching as uh it's it's it's writing preaching as uh it's it's it's writing it's a performance it's it's a movie it's a performance it's it's a movie it's a performance it's it's a movie it's a it's a oneman play every week uh it's a it's a oneman play every week uh it's a it's a oneman play every week uh that has a particular you know you've that has a particular you know you've that has a particular you know you've got to write it you've got to produce it got to write it you've got to produce it got to write it you've got to produce it you've got to direct it you got to think you've got to direct it you got to think you've got to direct it you got to think through all the illustrations you've through all the illustrations you've through all the illustrations you've gota it's a screenplay every week and so gota it's a screenplay every week and so gota it's a screenplay every week and so I think the reason I love you know I think the reason I love you know I think the reason I love you know growing up on movies and thinking growing up on movies and thinking growing up on movies and thinking through oh that scene shifted to that through oh that scene shifted to that through oh that scene shifted to that and the music came up there and why is and the music came up there and why is and the music came up there and why is that there all of that the Cadence the that there all of that the Cadence the that there all of that the Cadence the Rhythm all of it uh anyway so all of Rhythm all of it uh anyway so all of Rhythm all of it uh anyway so all of that I think but coming back to the the that I think but coming back to the the that I think but coming back to the the mental health part of it having all that mental health part of it having all that mental health part of it having all that struggle as a kid the isolation the struggle as a kid the isolation the struggle as a kid the isolation the trying to figure friendships out the trying to figure friendships out the trying to figure friendships out the being able to survive in the social being able to survive in the social being able to survive in the social World which which I did by God's grace World which which I did by God's grace World which which I did by God's grace actually weirdly enough I somehow still actually weirdly enough I somehow still actually weirdly enough I somehow still had a bunch of friends and had a great had a bunch of friends and had a great had a bunch of friends and had a great childhood and had a lot of fun and uh childhood and had a lot of fun and uh childhood and had a lot of fun and uh but I think that part of that isolation but I think that part of that isolation but I think that part of that isolation and my dad passed away when I was 15 I and my dad passed away when I was 15 I and my dad passed away when I was 15 I get a phone call and they say hey uh and get a phone call and they say hey uh and get a phone call and they say hey uh and I talk about this in the book on the the I talk about this in the book on the the I talk about this in the book on the the chapters on suffering I have two chapters on suffering I have two chapters on suffering I have two chapters on suffering and it's like we chapters on suffering and it's like we chapters on suffering and it's like we all have experiences you know all of us all have experiences you know all of us all have experiences you know all of us have stories and if we were to go into have stories and if we were to go into have stories and if we were to go into your history and your past you would your history and your past you would your history and your past you would have things that it's like life isn't have things that it's like life isn't have things that it's like life isn't easy life kicks back life is difficult easy life kicks back life is difficult easy life kicks back life is difficult and when I was 15 get the phone call I'd

and when I was 15 get the phone call I'd and when I was 15 get the phone call I'd only seen my dad every once in a while only seen my dad every once in a while only seen my dad every once in a while for a couple years and hey he's got lung for a couple years and hey he's got lung for a couple years and hey he's got lung cancer he never told anybody you better cancer he never told anybody you better cancer he never told anybody you better come visit him before he dies the next come visit him before he dies the next come visit him before he dies the next day he was dead we didn't even get a day he was dead we didn't even get a day he was dead we didn't even get a chance to visit him 47 years old I was chance to visit him 47 years old I was chance to visit him 47 years old I was 15 and so on top of all the mental 15 and so on top of all the mental 15 and so on top of all the mental challenge stuff now I got a father who challenge stuff now I got a father who challenge stuff now I got a father who left me and he dies I mean all the left me and he dies I mean all the left me and he dies I mean all the statistics you know I'm I'm I'm statistics you know I'm I'm I'm statistics you know I'm I'm I'm literally I started the first time I literally I started the first time I literally I started the first time I ever did drugs carrye I think I was ever did drugs carrye I think I was ever did drugs carrye I think I was probably 10 years old the guy in our probably 10 years old the guy in our probably 10 years old the guy in our town showed us some weed and some hash town showed us some weed and some hash town showed us some weed and some hash and some different things we're sitting and some different things we're sitting and some different things we're sitting behind the convenience store smoking it behind the convenience store smoking it behind the convenience store smoking it up a little bit and then I get back into up a little bit and then I get back into up a little bit and then I get back into it a little bit in high school and I'm it a little bit in high school and I'm it a little bit in high school and I'm throwing rocks through people's windows throwing rocks through people's windows throwing rocks through people's windows to steal money to buy Dr I mean you're to steal money to buy Dr I mean you're to steal money to buy Dr I mean you're hanging out with the bad kids it's like hanging out with the bad kids it's like hanging out with the bad kids it's like every stat has me going down a route every stat has me going down a route every stat has me going down a route that's like this isn't going to end well that's like this isn't going to end well that's like this isn't going to end well this guy's going to end up dead or in this guy's going to end up dead or in this guy's going to end up dead or in jail um and this is where when I become jail um and this is where when I become jail um and this is where when I become a Christian when I'm 17 18 or one of the a Christian when I'm 17 18 or one of the a Christian when I'm 17 18 or one of the chapters I talk about living as a Victor chapters I talk about living as a Victor chapters I talk about living as a Victor not a victim you can just look back at not a victim you can just look back at not a victim you can just look back at your life and blame everything you can your life and blame everything you can your life and blame everything you can blame your kindergarten teacher you can blame your kindergarten teacher you can blame your kindergarten teacher you can blame the way you were raised you can blame the way you were raised you can blame the way you were raised you can blame everything about your life on blame everything about your life on blame everything about your life on everybody else or you can make something everybody else or you can make something everybody else or you can make something of your life and you can go you know of your life and you can go you know of your life and you can go you know what I'm gonna go after this and I'm what I'm gonna go after this and I'm what I'm gonna go after this and I'm gonna you know and Jesus talks about gonna you know and Jesus talks about gonna you know and Jesus talks about this that we are to be more than this that we are to be more than this that we are to be more than conquerors and the beautiful thing about conquerors and the beautiful thing about conquerors and the beautiful thing about the Cross of Christ the Cross of Christ the Cross of Christ is the Theology of experation which we is the Theology of experation which we is the Theology of experation which we rarely talk about in the church we talk rarely talk about in the church we talk rarely talk about in the church we talk about atonement we talk about about atonement we talk about about atonement we talk about justification we talk about regeneration justification we talk about regeneration justification we talk about regeneration one of the things about experation which

one of the things about experation which one of the things about experation which which actually your people need almost which actually your people need almost which actually your people need almost just as much as any other part of the just as much as any other part of the just as much as any other part of the Cross of Christ is that Jesus not only Cross of Christ is that Jesus not only Cross of Christ is that Jesus not only saves you from your sin he actually saves you from your sin he actually saves you from your sin he actually washes you clean of the sins others have washes you clean of the sins others have washes you clean of the sins others have done to you this is a beautiful part of done to you this is a beautiful part of done to you this is a beautiful part of the Cross of Christ that you not only the Cross of Christ that you not only the Cross of Christ that you not only get forgiven you get cleansed well think get forgiven you get cleansed well think get forgiven you get cleansed well think about what that feels like for the about what that feels like for the about what that feels like for the person who's been raped who's sitting in person who's been raped who's sitting in person who's been raped who's sitting in your congregation and they're like I am your congregation and they're like I am your congregation and they're like I am too dirty and shame filled to be at this too dirty and shame filled to be at this too dirty and shame filled to be at this church I I looked at our church a couple church I I looked at our church a couple church I I looked at our church a couple weeks ago and I said some of you have weeks ago and I said some of you have weeks ago and I said some of you have heard the phrase I'm sweating like a heard the phrase I'm sweating like a heard the phrase I'm sweating like a hooker in church you know they're all hooker in church you know they're all hooker in church you know they're all and they're all like what the I've never and they're all like what the I've never and they're all like what the I've never heard that phrase about what in the heard that phrase about what in the heard that phrase about what in the world you know and it's like the reason world you know and it's like the reason world you know and it's like the reason we say that is because you know someone we say that is because you know someone we say that is because you know someone who's involved in sexual promiscuity who's involved in sexual promiscuity who's involved in sexual promiscuity comes to the church they hang it with a comes to the church they hang it with a comes to the church they hang it with a bunch of righteous relig I people they bunch of righteous relig I people they bunch of righteous relig I people they feel the shame and the guilt of their feel the shame and the guilt of their feel the shame and the guilt of their life and they think I don't belong here life and they think I don't belong here life and they think I don't belong here and the gospel comes and says if you and the gospel comes and says if you and the gospel comes and says if you believe in Christ you get washed clean believe in Christ you get washed clean believe in Christ you get washed clean of all that abuse you get washed clean of all that abuse you get washed clean of all that abuse you get washed clean it doesn't it doesn't mean you magically it doesn't it doesn't mean you magically it doesn't it doesn't mean you magically next morning you wake up it just means next morning you wake up it just means next morning you wake up it just means that categorically from the point of that categorically from the point of that categorically from the point of your your your identity Christ has washed you clean and identity Christ has washed you clean and identity Christ has washed you clean and you can wake up in the morning with you can wake up in the morning with you can wake up in the morning with steel in your spine and a whole new steel in your spine and a whole new steel in your spine and a whole new identity and no shame and no guilt and identity and no shame and no guilt and identity and no shame and no guilt and no fear all of that I think it's true as no fear all of that I think it's true as no fear all of that I think it's true as it applied to me when I became a it applied to me when I became a it applied to me when I became a Christian I was like okay I didn't all Christian I was like okay I didn't all Christian I was like okay I didn't all of a sudden stop doing my ticks I still of a sudden stop doing my ticks I still of a sudden stop doing my ticks I still do them on stage it drives me do them on stage it drives me do them on stage it drives me crazy like how often I've asked God just crazy like how often I've asked God just crazy like how often I've asked God just take away all this nonsense I'm take away all this nonsense I'm take away all this nonsense I'm twitching my face around I'm making

twitching my face around I'm making twitching my face around I'm making weird noises into this microphone these weird noises into this microphone these weird noises into this microphone these people are trying to hear me preach and people are trying to hear me preach and people are trying to hear me preach and I'm you know twitching around whatever I'm you know twitching around whatever I'm you know twitching around whatever God just take this away and God has done God just take this away and God has done God just take this away and God has done first Corinthians on me and said no I'm first Corinthians on me and said no I'm first Corinthians on me and said no I'm gonna leave a little thorn in your flesh gonna leave a little thorn in your flesh gonna leave a little thorn in your flesh because when I do that and people come because when I do that and people come because when I do that and people come to Christ it shows that I'm big and to Christ it shows that I'm big and to Christ it shows that I'm big and you're just a tool you're just a little you're just a tool you're just a little you're just a tool you're just a little whatever right and it's like okay that's whatever right and it's like okay that's whatever right and it's like okay that's that's fair and so that's you know this that's fair and so that's you know this that's fair and so that's you know this might never go away in my life and God might never go away in my life and God might never go away in my life and God will use it for his glory versus my own will use it for his glory versus my own will use it for his glory versus my own which is a good thing why do those ticks which is a good thing why do those ticks which is a good thing why do those ticks still bother still bother still bother you uh I don't know even talking about you uh I don't know even talking about you uh I don't know even talking about them I do them more right it's like it them I do them more right it's like it them I do them more right it's like it gets into my head and then I do it Oh gets into my head and then I do it Oh gets into my head and then I do it Oh you mean bother me like because they're you mean bother me like because they're you mean bother me like because they're annoying I find them I mean we have annoying I find them I mean we have annoying I find them I mean we have spent so much time together just spent so much time together just spent so much time together just personally off mic off camera I find personally off mic off camera I find personally off mic off camera I find them endearing I find it makes you them endearing I find it makes you them endearing I find it makes you uniquely you s of the OCD the uniquely you s of the OCD the uniquely you s of the OCD the impulsiveness the uh because it's not impulsiveness the uh because it's not impulsiveness the uh because it's not like I don't I'm sure there are times in like I don't I'm sure there are times in like I don't I'm sure there are times in your life where they work against you your life where they work against you your life where they work against you momentarily for the most part they work momentarily for the most part they work momentarily for the most part they work for you actually that's a good there for you actually that's a good there for you actually that's a good there might be a question there how do those might be a question there how do those might be a question there how do those things cuz they're they're relatively things cuz they're they're relatively things cuz they're they're relatively controlled yeah you do have some controlled yeah you do have some controlled yeah you do have some mannerisms that people would be like oh mannerisms that people would be like oh mannerisms that people would be like oh I wonder what that is right I wonder what that is right I wonder what that is right but it's funny I was on a plane so but it's funny I was on a plane so but it's funny I was on a plane so remember your question keep going remember your question keep going remember your question keep going remember your question so I was on a remember your question so I was on a remember your question so I was on a plane we're flying out um forget it was

plane we're flying out um forget it was plane we're flying out um forget it was a big long flight a 14 hour flight or a big long flight a 14 hour flight or a big long flight a 14 hour flight or something and uh I sit down beside the something and uh I sit down beside the something and uh I sit down beside the woman and we started chatting literally woman and we started chatting literally woman and we started chatting literally she's like hi what's your name I'm like she's like hi what's your name I'm like she's like hi what's your name I'm like Mark I was like what's your name I'm I'm Mark I was like what's your name I'm I'm Mark I was like what's your name I'm I'm Sarah what cool literally within one Sarah what cool literally within one Sarah what cool literally within one minute she looks at me she goes so minute she looks at me she goes so minute she looks at me she goes so Tourette eh Tourette eh Tourette eh right and I'm like that was bold that right and I'm like that was bold that right and I'm like that was bold that wasn't a one hour flight either you have wasn't a one hour flight either you have wasn't a one hour flight either you have 14 hours exactly I'm like oh here we go 14 hours exactly I'm like oh here we go 14 hours exactly I'm like oh here we go and she knew within a minute and I guess and she knew within a minute and I guess and she knew within a minute and I guess she worked in like some psychology she worked in like some psychology she worked in like some psychology department and she was a counselor or department and she was a counselor or department and she was a counselor or something she's seen it enough that a something she's seen it enough that a something she's seen it enough that a one minute conversation with me you know one minute conversation with me you know one minute conversation with me you know and it's not like I was you know poking and it's not like I was you know poking and it's not like I was you know poking her in the eyes or doing weird things it her in the eyes or doing weird things it her in the eyes or doing weird things it was just it was just like little ticks was just it was just like little ticks was just it was just like little ticks and Twitches anyway Sor go ahead no you and Twitches anyway Sor go ahead no you and Twitches anyway Sor go ahead no you know I can't remember my question now know I can't remember my question now know I can't remember my question now but it's just so fascinating no I I but it's just so fascinating no I I but it's just so fascinating no I I derailed myself which I'm good at but derailed myself which I'm good at but derailed myself which I'm good at but it's interesting you know because I was it's interesting you know because I was it's interesting you know because I was at a funeral uh last weekend with Tony at a funeral uh last weekend with Tony at a funeral uh last weekend with Tony for a good friend it was a father who for a good friend it was a father who for a good friend it was a father who had passed away her father her had passed away her father her had passed away her father her father-in-law and you know we're in this father-in-law and you know we're in this father-in-law and you know we're in this church and it's a long service and I'm church and it's a long service and I'm church and it's a long service and I'm looking around I have undiagnosed ADHD looking around I have undiagnosed ADHD looking around I have undiagnosed ADHD for sure I was a kid who couldn't sit for sure I was a kid who couldn't sit for sure I was a kid who couldn't sit still I still can't sit still and I'm still I still can't sit still and I'm still I still can't sit still and I'm sitting there at this Funeral Service sitting there at this Funeral Service sitting there at this Funeral Service everyone's being so appropriate and I Am everyone's being so appropriate and I Am everyone's being so appropriate and I Am shifting in my seat about every 8 shifting in my seat about every 8 shifting in my seat about every 8 seconds and I can't sit still and I'm seconds and I can't sit still and I'm seconds and I can't sit still and I'm tapping my fingers I'm tapping my foot tapping my fingers I'm tapping my foot tapping my fingers I'm tapping my foot trying not to be distractive and that's trying not to be distractive and that's trying not to be distractive and that's my whole life whether that was in a my whole life whether that was in a my whole life whether that was in a university lecture whether I was in university lecture whether I was in university lecture whether I was in church growing up and I think that church growing up and I think that church growing up and I think that propelled me to become the leader propelled me to become the leader propelled me to become the leader because if I'm in front of people I

because if I'm in front of people I because if I'm in front of people I don't do it I can move I can I've got don't do it I can move I can I've got don't do it I can move I can I've got freedom if if I'm if I'm sitting freedom if if I'm if I'm sitting freedom if if I'm if I'm sitting somewhere for an hour and a half I feel somewhere for an hour and a half I feel somewhere for an hour and a half I feel like I'm in jail right so you're you're like I'm in jail right so you're you're like I'm in jail right so you're you're saying if you have to be in church every saying if you have to be in church every saying if you have to be in church every weekend why not be preaching rather than weekend why not be preaching rather than weekend why not be preaching rather than sitting why not be the guy up front sitting why not be the guy up front sitting why not be the guy up front that's awesome no I don't think that was that's awesome no I don't think that was that's awesome no I don't think that was the whole call story but you know it's the whole call story but you know it's the whole call story but you know it's very interesting and yet it's that sort very interesting and yet it's that sort very interesting and yet it's that sort of restlessness that drive that that of restlessness that drive that that of restlessness that drive that that goes into a lot of my DNA my goes into a lot of my DNA my goes into a lot of my DNA my entrepreneurial spirit and everything so entrepreneurial spirit and everything so entrepreneurial spirit and everything so I think this is part of what advice I think this is part of what advice I think this is part of what advice would you have for someone who maybe has would you have for someone who maybe has would you have for someone who maybe has a diagnosable or undiagnosed condition a diagnosable or undiagnosed condition a diagnosable or undiagnosed condition that could be seen by the world as a that could be seen by the world as a that could be seen by the world as a liability to leverage it as a strength liability to leverage it as a strength liability to leverage it as a strength because you're right you know Moses because you're right you know Moses because you're right you know Moses couldn't talk Paul had this whatever couldn't talk Paul had this whatever couldn't talk Paul had this whatever mysterious th you know thorn in his side mysterious th you know thorn in his side mysterious th you know thorn in his side I mean the number Jacob walk with a limp I mean the number Jacob walk with a limp I mean the number Jacob walk with a limp uh I mean my everybody yeah everybody uh I mean my everybody yeah everybody uh I mean my everybody yeah everybody everybody's got something everyone's got everybody's got something everyone's got everybody's got something everyone's got something and and I think it really is something and and I think it really is something and and I think it really is it's about aiming it's about uh you know it's about aiming it's about uh you know it's about aiming it's about uh you know one of the chapters of the book's called one of the chapters of the book's called one of the chapters of the book's called Turning struggles um into strengths and Turning struggles um into strengths and Turning struggles um into strengths and it's like if you aim the struggle at it's like if you aim the struggle at it's like if you aim the struggle at something something something significant um then you can make significant um then you can make significant um then you can make something of the world through your something of the world through your something of the world through your struggle and other people how many times struggle and other people how many times struggle and other people how many times as I mentioned earlier have I shared a as I mentioned earlier have I shared a as I mentioned earlier have I shared a story about obsessive compulsive or story about obsessive compulsive or story about obsessive compulsive or Tourette's or something and I'm sitting Tourette's or something and I'm sitting Tourette's or something and I'm sitting there in front of thousands of people there in front of thousands of people there in front of thousands of people and the people come up to me after and and the people come up to me after and and the people come up to me after and they say oh my gosh I never I never they say oh my gosh I never I never they say oh my gosh I never I never thought like that I've I've hid this my thought like that I've I've hid this my thought like that I've I've hid this my whole life I never told my husband I I

whole life I never told my husband I I whole life I never told my husband I I shared a story one time about the shared a story one time about the shared a story one time about the obsessive compulsive mentality and a obsessive compulsive mentality and a obsessive compulsive mentality and a lady walked up to me and she said my lady walked up to me and she said my lady walked up to me and she said my whole life I've taken when I've folding whole life I've taken when I've folding whole life I've taken when I've folding laundry I take a corner of the laundry laundry I take a corner of the laundry laundry I take a corner of the laundry and I fold it up and I think if this and I fold it up and I think if this and I fold it up and I think if this corner doesn't hit exactly that corner corner doesn't hit exactly that corner corner doesn't hit exactly that corner my kids are going to die at school today my kids are going to die at school today my kids are going to die at school today and if I take this and I fold it like and if I take this and I fold it like and if I take this and I fold it like this and I put it in the drawer then my this and I put it in the drawer then my this and I put it in the drawer then my husband's going to die in a car wreck on husband's going to die in a car wreck on husband's going to die in a car wreck on the way home today and I live like that the way home today and I live like that the way home today and I live like that and she said for 25 years I've never and she said for 25 years I've never and she said for 25 years I've never told one other human being about it told one other human being about it told one other human being about it because I thought I was I thought I was because I thought I was I thought I was because I thought I was I thought I was something was wrong with me you shared something was wrong with me you shared something was wrong with me you shared that in your sermon immediately I went that in your sermon immediately I went that in your sermon immediately I went home and told my family that I'm normal home and told my family that I'm normal home and told my family that I'm normal that that that you know da and she's that that that you know da and she's that that that you know da and she's like she started finding healing she like she started finding healing she like she started finding healing she started to go to counseling all because started to go to counseling all because started to go to counseling all because I was willing to give her permission by I was willing to give her permission by I was willing to give her permission by sharing a limp of my own and it freed sharing a limp of my own and it freed sharing a limp of my own and it freed her up to live more free and it's like her up to live more free and it's like her up to live more free and it's like that's part of our job if we're on a that's part of our job if we're on a that's part of our job if we're on a stage we cannot be the hero of the story stage we cannot be the hero of the story stage we cannot be the hero of the story Jesus has to be the hero and we have to Jesus has to be the hero and we have to Jesus has to be the hero and we have to bring all of our nonsense to the table bring all of our nonsense to the table bring all of our nonsense to the table and I think in any time in life I mean and I think in any time in life I mean and I think in any time in life I mean for people who aren't leaders or for people who aren't leaders or for people who aren't leaders or preachers or whatever it's like aim your preachers or whatever it's like aim your preachers or whatever it's like aim your struggle at something and use it use the struggle at something and use it use the struggle at something and use it use the disadvantage use the disadvantage and it disadvantage use the disadvantage and it disadvantage use the disadvantage and it can become an advantage even if the only can become an advantage even if the only can become an advantage even if the only Advantage is you give a whole bunch of Advantage is you give a whole bunch of Advantage is you give a whole bunch of people around you permission to join you people around you permission to join you people around you permission to join you in like oh I have that struggle too now in like oh I have that struggle too now in like oh I have that struggle too now sometimes you know our our quirks have sometimes you know our our quirks have sometimes you know our our quirks have hard edges to them I'm sure they do with

hard edges to them I'm sure they do with hard edges to them I'm sure they do with your wife with your daughters with some your wife with your daughters with some your wife with your daughters with some of your co-workers what are you doing to of your co-workers what are you doing to of your co-workers what are you doing to manage around the weaknesses like I have manage around the weaknesses like I have manage around the weaknesses like I have to be very careful with my team that if to be very careful with my team that if to be very careful with my team that if I pick a strategy I stick with it I I pick a strategy I stick with it I I pick a strategy I stick with it I don't just like oh I changed my mind don't just like oh I changed my mind don't just like oh I changed my mind because today we're going for this you because today we're going for this you because today we're going for this you know or I just don't get bored with know or I just don't get bored with know or I just don't get bored with something and move on I have to be very something and move on I have to be very something and move on I have to be very consistent and making sure that my ADHD consistent and making sure that my ADHD consistent and making sure that my ADHD doesn't derail our little company what doesn't derail our little company what doesn't derail our little company what what do you have to do to manage around what do you have to do to manage around what do you have to do to manage around your your your weaknesses uh I have to listen to the weaknesses uh I have to listen to the weaknesses uh I have to listen to the people around me and somehow I mean the people around me and somehow I mean the people around me and somehow I mean the thing is when you're sitting in that Pew thing is when you're sitting in that Pew thing is when you're sitting in that Pew Carrie you know what part of it is and Carrie you know what part of it is and Carrie you know what part of it is and this isn't this isn't to justify this isn't this isn't to justify this isn't this isn't to justify anything or to to make you you know to anything or to to make you you know to anything or to to make you you know to Puff you up part of it is you're a smart Puff you up part of it is you're a smart Puff you up part of it is you're a smart person and the reason you're sitting person and the reason you're sitting person and the reason you're sitting there and you're a little bit you might there and you're a little bit you might there and you're a little bit you might be a little more bored than the regular be a little more bored than the regular be a little more bored than the regular Joe because you might be smarter than Joe because you might be smarter than Joe because you might be smarter than the regular Joe I mean if we're just the regular Joe I mean if we're just the regular Joe I mean if we're just honest your brain is fast moving it's honest your brain is fast moving it's honest your brain is fast moving it's filled with a whole bunch of information filled with a whole bunch of information filled with a whole bunch of information you're you know it's like if I'm sitting you're you know it's like if I'm sitting you're you know it's like if I'm sitting somewhere and I've been reading some somewhere and I've been reading some somewhere and I've been reading some philosophical thing about you know first philosophical thing about you know first philosophical thing about you know first century Judaism and constructing the century Judaism and constructing the century Judaism and constructing the soteriological structure of you know EP soteriological structure of you know EP soteriological structure of you know EP Sanders presentation of Paul line gism Sanders presentation of Paul line gism Sanders presentation of Paul line gism in the 70s you know whatever and I'm in the 70s you know whatever and I'm in the 70s you know whatever and I'm sitting there at a funeral right and sitting there at a funeral right and sitting there at a funeral right and it's like Joey was a great guy and it's like Joey was a great guy and it's like Joey was a great guy and you're like you're trying to figure you're like you're trying to figure you're like you're trying to figure Pauline soteriology out you know and Pauline soteriology out you know and Pauline soteriology out you know and it's like there might be a reason your

it's like there might be a reason your it's like there might be a reason your brain is firing on all cylinders and brain is firing on all cylinders and brain is firing on all cylinders and you're you're working on problems and you're you're working on problems and you're you're working on problems and things and you're asking existential things and you're asking existential things and you're asking existential questions about this and they all these questions about this and they all these questions about this and they all these fascinating things are happening in your fascinating things are happening in your fascinating things are happening in your brain partly why you might be a little brain partly why you might be a little brain partly why you might be a little fidgety you know it's like no that's fidgety you know it's like no that's fidgety you know it's like no that's interesting I'd never thought about well interesting I'd never thought about well interesting I'd never thought about well you know I'm not going to compare myself you know I'm not going to compare myself you know I'm not going to compare myself to other people that way uh but there's to other people that way uh but there's to other people that way uh but there's definitely a lot going on all the time a definitely a lot going on all the time a definitely a lot going on all the time a lot going on all the time yeah because lot going on all the time yeah because lot going on all the time yeah because you're a smart person if you were less you're a smart person if you were less you're a smart person if you were less if you were less smart you'd just be if you were less smart you'd just be if you were less smart you'd just be like just maybe more present and I and I like just maybe more present and I and I like just maybe more present and I and I say that as an excuse because smart say that as an excuse because smart say that as an excuse because smart people need to socially I people need to socially I people need to socially I need exactly there can be really smart need exactly there can be really smart need exactly there can be really smart people who are socially a disaster and people who are socially a disaster and people who are socially a disaster and they never get anywhere in life my mom they never get anywhere in life my mom they never get anywhere in life my mom always seen as a weakness it's like pay always seen as a weakness it's like pay always seen as a weakness it's like pay attention sit still behave behave right attention sit still behave behave right attention sit still behave behave right and that's a whole and that's a whole and that's a whole and that's a whole and that's a whole and that's a whole fascinating world of how we socially get fascinating world of how we socially get fascinating world of how we socially get along with the world and emotionally along with the world and emotionally along with the world and emotionally connect to people versus just data and connect to people versus just data and connect to people versus just data and information and we know we're right and information and we know we're right and information and we know we're right and we know that person's actually wrong but we know that person's actually wrong but we know that person's actually wrong but how do you sit how do you sit have a how do you sit how do you sit have a how do you sit how do you sit have a conversation with someone and they say conversation with someone and they say conversation with someone and they say something I mean this is what's happened something I mean this is what's happened something I mean this is what's happened to me in the past I remember I remember to me in the past I remember I remember to me in the past I remember I remember I was sitting having a staru one day I was sitting having a staru one day I was sitting having a staru one day having a meeting with a bunch of people having a meeting with a bunch of people having a meeting with a bunch of people and the and the woman said uh she gave and the and the woman said uh she gave and the and the woman said uh she gave some illustration and she goes hey you some illustration and she goes hey you some illustration and she goes hey you know like we're sitting here at this know like we're sitting here at this know like we're sitting here at this restaurant right now and for some reason restaurant right now and for some reason restaurant right now and for some reason my brain interrupted her and I because my brain interrupted her and I because my brain interrupted her and I because in my head I was like I need to correct in my head I was like I need to correct in my head I was like I need to correct this mistake because for the rest of her this mistake because for the rest of her this mistake because for the rest of her life she's gonna keep calling Starbucks life she's gonna keep calling Starbucks life she's gonna keep calling Starbucks a restaurant so I just interrupt I said

a restaurant so I just interrupt I said a restaurant so I just interrupt I said um this is not a restaurant this is a um this is not a restaurant this is a um this is not a restaurant this is a coffee shop now what what good is this coffee shop now what what good is this coffee shop now what what good is this doing what good what good how Win doing what good what good how Win doing what good what good how Win Friends and Influence People by Friends and Influence People by Friends and Influence People by exactly exactly so so in that moment we exactly exactly so so in that moment we exactly exactly so so in that moment we all kind of laughed because we were all kind of laughed because we were all kind of laughed because we were friends and I'm like wait a minute and friends and I'm like wait a minute and friends and I'm like wait a minute and then I started to comment on how dumb it then I started to comment on how dumb it then I started to comment on how dumb it was that I even bothered to make this was that I even bothered to make this was that I even bothered to make this correction but in in some you know this correction but in in some you know this correction but in in some you know this some people they're so smart but they some people they're so smart but they some people they're so smart but they have no social skills yes they just have no social skills yes they just have no social skills yes they just torch thems because they're just after torch thems because they're just after torch thems because they're just after what's right and to your point about what's right and to your point about what's right and to your point about Carnegie he's like no no we're not Carnegie he's like no no we're not Carnegie he's like no no we're not primarily logical creatures we emotional primarily logical creatures we emotional primarily logical creatures we emotional creatures which means you're constantly creatures which means you're constantly creatures which means you're constantly having to Nuance people's emotions having to Nuance people's emotions having to Nuance people's emotions you're constantly having to get people you're constantly having to get people you're constantly having to get people to move somewhere with you whether the to move somewhere with you whether the to move somewhere with you whether the right wrong data is like secondary right wrong data is like secondary right wrong data is like secondary sometimes when it comes to moving people sometimes when it comes to moving people sometimes when it comes to moving people towards something or socially getting towards something or socially getting towards something or socially getting along in the world anyway all that to along in the world anyway all that to along in the world anyway all that to say um coming back to your question I say um coming back to your question I say um coming back to your question I need to at times to be careful my tone need to at times to be careful my tone need to at times to be careful my tone especially with my daughters so I have especially with my daughters so I have especially with my daughters so I have three daughters 18 16 and 14 okay which three daughters 18 16 and 14 okay which three daughters 18 16 and 14 okay which means I have four mothers at home that means I have four mothers at home that means I have four mothers at home that are constantly telling me what to do are constantly telling me what to do are constantly telling me what to do telling me I'm dumb telling me I've got telling me I'm dumb telling me I've got telling me I'm dumb telling me I've got it wrong telling me that da da it's it wrong telling me that da da it's it wrong telling me that da da it's constant right and so it's it's awesome constant right and so it's it's awesome constant right and so it's it's awesome but it's like it's a girl world man and but it's like it's a girl world man and but it's like it's a girl world man and I am like lost in it sometimes so I'm I am like lost in it sometimes so I'm I am like lost in it sometimes so I'm jumping right to Solutions I'm harsh you jumping right to Solutions I'm harsh you jumping right to Solutions I'm harsh you know get get get the dog and go to bed know get get get the dog and go to bed know get get get the dog and go to bed you know all these and my wife's like you know all these and my wife's like you know all these and my wife's like bro you can literally say the same thing bro you can literally say the same thing bro you can literally say the same thing but you're coming across just like you

but you're coming across just like you but you're coming across just like you know like my daughter the other day she know like my daughter the other day she know like my daughter the other day she texted and she's like the toilet's texted and she's like the toilet's texted and she's like the toilet's overflowing my youngest and the second overflowing my youngest and the second overflowing my youngest and the second daughter texts she's like buddy dad's daughter texts she's like buddy dad's daughter texts she's like buddy dad's going to kill you and it's like really going to kill you and it's like really going to kill you and it's like really is that how I come across that I'm going is that how I come across that I'm going is that how I come across that I'm going to come home and like start yelling at to come home and like start yelling at to come home and like start yelling at everybody no and I don't but it's like everybody no and I don't but it's like everybody no and I don't but it's like it's just my tone of voice it's like do it's just my tone of voice it's like do it's just my tone of voice it's like do this do that hey and even just a normal this do that hey and even just a normal this do that hey and even just a normal question oh be like so what' you guys do question oh be like so what' you guys do question oh be like so what' you guys do for school today and it's like we didn't for school today and it's like we didn't for school today and it's like we didn't do school why are you so mean I'm like do school why are you so mean I'm like do school why are you so mean I'm like what the talking about you know and it's what the talking about you know and it's what the talking about you know and it's like because the tone was almost like because the tone was almost like because the tone was almost accusatory and so my wife my wife accusatory and so my wife my wife accusatory and so my wife my wife sometimes was supposed to say to me I sometimes was supposed to say to me I sometimes was supposed to say to me I don't know if Tony ever says this to you don't know if Tony ever says this to you don't know if Tony ever says this to you she'll say hey uh you know I don't work she'll say hey uh you know I don't work she'll say hey uh you know I don't work for you right oh yes yes we've had that for you right oh yes yes we've had that for you right oh yes yes we've had that conversation right it's like why you conversation right it's like why you conversation right it's like why you talking to me like I'm an employee you talking to me like I'm an employee you talking to me like I'm an employee you know I'm like yeah it would be easier know I'm like yeah it would be easier know I'm like yeah it would be easier though I think hey man you know my kids though I think hey man you know my kids though I think hey man you know my kids 33 and 29 I'm still watching my tone of 33 and 29 I'm still watching my tone of 33 and 29 I'm still watching my tone of voice I mean when they're around it's voice I mean when they're around it's voice I mean when they're around it's like oh Dad mode no but I think you rais like oh Dad mode no but I think you rais like oh Dad mode no but I think you rais a really good point you know we have our a really good point you know we have our a really good point you know we have our um quirks and the edges to the strengths um quirks and the edges to the strengths um quirks and the edges to the strengths that make us who we are and I think that make us who we are and I think that make us who we are and I think getting constant input from our family getting constant input from our family getting constant input from our family from our staff from our Inner Circle from our staff from our Inner Circle from our staff from our Inner Circle going that was a little harsh that was a going that was a little harsh that was a going that was a little harsh that was a little yeah and and you were not little yeah and and you were not little yeah and and you were not honoring that person by being so fidgety honoring that person by being so fidgety honoring that person by being so fidgety in the midst of that okay dude you got a in the midst of that okay dude you got a in the midst of that okay dude you got a new book it's called the problem of Life

new book it's called the problem of Life new book it's called the problem of Life problem of Life problem of God problem problem of Life problem of God problem problem of Life problem of God problem of Jesus problem of Life there it is of Jesus problem of Life there it is of Jesus problem of Life there it is it's out it's a great book it's out it's a great book it's out it's a great book now one of the things that I'm excited now one of the things that I'm excited now one of the things that I'm excited about I've told this to a handful of about I've told this to a handful of about I've told this to a handful of people who are around your age and stage people who are around your age and stage people who are around your age and stage but what excites me about you we've but what excites me about you we've but what excites me about you we've known each other I think easily 10 12 known each other I think easily 10 12 known each other I think easily 10 12 years now which is awesome yeah and um years now which is awesome yeah and um years now which is awesome yeah and um I've seen you get better I've seen you I've seen you get better I've seen you I've seen you get better I've seen you work on your craft and the stuff you're work on your craft and the stuff you're work on your craft and the stuff you're were doing 10 years ago was awesome the were doing 10 years ago was awesome the were doing 10 years ago was awesome the stuff you're doing now is stuff you're doing now is stuff you're doing now is exceptional and I'd love to look at your exceptional and I'd love to look at your exceptional and I'd love to look at your study habits one of your superpowers and study habits one of your superpowers and study habits one of your superpowers and you never talk about this but I think you never talk about this but I think you never talk about this but I think one of the things you do really well is one of the things you do really well is one of the things you do really well is you do you basically only do the things you do you basically only do the things you do you basically only do the things you want to do I don't know too many you want to do I don't know too many you want to do I don't know too many people who are so I never when we're people who are so I never when we're people who are so I never when we're talking you're never like oh you know I talking you're never like oh you know I talking you're never like oh you know I had these 42 tasks I had to do that had these 42 tasks I had to do that had these 42 tasks I had to do that other people assigned to me you're like other people assigned to me you're like other people assigned to me you're like dude I just got back from the speaking dude I just got back from the speaking dude I just got back from the speaking engagement oh I'm writing this book oh engagement oh I'm writing this book oh engagement oh I'm writing this book oh I'm preaching you know eight services I'm preaching you know eight services I'm preaching you know eight services this weekend at such and such like this weekend at such and such like this weekend at such and such like you're very good at um almost to a fault you're very good at um almost to a fault you're very good at um almost to a fault saying no um but that allows you to saying no um but that allows you to saying no um but that allows you to focus in on reading on movies on the focus in on reading on movies on the focus in on reading on movies on the things that make your work what your things that make your work what your things that make your work what your work is do you want to talk about your work is do you want to talk about your work is do you want to talk about your habits and yeah the things because this habits and yeah the things because this habits and yeah the things because this isn't like I don't know 250 300 pages isn't like I don't know 250 300 pages isn't like I don't know 250 300 pages but there's there's thousands of hours but there's there's thousands of hours but there's there's thousands of hours yeah over the last 30 years that you yeah over the last 30 years that you yeah over the last 30 years that you poured into producing a book like this poured into producing a book like this poured into producing a book like this yeah yeah I love to your point I love

yeah yeah I love to your point I love yeah yeah I love to your point I love reading I love I love information if reading I love I love information if reading I love I love information if someone said hey here's 30 Mill someone said hey here's 30 Mill someone said hey here's 30 Mill you never get to read again I don't you never get to read again I don't you never get to read again I don't think I would do it I need I need you think I would do it I need I need you think I would do it I need I need you know what I mean I mean I'm sure there's know what I mean I mean I'm sure there's know what I mean I mean I'm sure there's a number I'm sure there's a number it's a number I'm sure there's a number it's a number I'm sure there's a number it's like a billion I don't know two billion like a billion I don't know two billion like a billion I don't know two billion listen to an audio book then yeah yeah listen to an audio book then yeah yeah listen to an audio book then yeah yeah no no no there no information yeah no no no there no information yeah no no no there no information yeah exactly um so it's like I just love I exactly um so it's like I just love I exactly um so it's like I just love I love fresh information I love then love fresh information I love then love fresh information I love then condensing that information and being condensing that information and being condensing that information and being able to bring and I think that the the able to bring and I think that the the able to bring and I think that the the preaching and teaching that that I've preaching and teaching that that I've preaching and teaching that that I've done over the last 20 25 years has done over the last 20 25 years has done over the last 20 25 years has helped me go so when you're standing in helped me go so when you're standing in helped me go so when you're standing in front of a crowd there is no there is no front of a crowd there is no there is no front of a crowd there is no there is no better feedback to what's interesting to better feedback to what's interesting to better feedback to what's interesting to what stays compelling to what's you know what stays compelling to what's you know what stays compelling to what's you know keep can keep the the the attention of keep can keep the the the attention of keep can keep the the the attention of an audience that's busy and trying to an audience that's busy and trying to an audience that's busy and trying to pay the bills and trying to keep their pay the bills and trying to keep their pay the bills and trying to keep their marriage afloat and trying to raise kids marriage afloat and trying to raise kids marriage afloat and trying to raise kids that are crazy you got to bring your that are crazy you got to bring your that are crazy you got to bring your best stuff which means you got to do a best stuff which means you got to do a best stuff which means you got to do a lot of reading but then you got to lot of reading but then you got to lot of reading but then you got to condense that reading you can't bring condense that reading you can't bring condense that reading you can't bring people into the library with you or people into the library with you or people into the library with you or they're going to be bored you just have they're going to be bored you just have they're going to be bored you just have to walk out of the library and go I've to walk out of the library and go I've to walk out of the library and go I've done the work for you here's the done the work for you here's the done the work for you here's the conclusions in 35 40 minutes and so the conclusions in 35 40 minutes and so the conclusions in 35 40 minutes and so the reading over 20 30 years the condensing reading over 20 30 years the condensing reading over 20 30 years the condensing especially with this book where it's especially with this book where it's especially with this book where it's like the first two books were about you like the first two books were about you like the first two books were about you know John Calvin the opening of the know John Calvin the opening of the know John Calvin the opening of the institutes right the institutes which is institutes right the institutes which is institutes right the institutes which is like one of the great theological like one of the great theological like one of the great theological documents ever written right open yeah documents ever written right open yeah documents ever written right open yeah the opening line of that book is the opening line of that book is the opening line of that book is basically there's two kinds of knowledge basically there's two kinds of knowledge basically there's two kinds of knowledge that we have to figure out in this world that we have to figure out in this world that we have to figure out in this world the knowledge of God and the knowledge the knowledge of God and the knowledge the knowledge of God and the knowledge of ourselves the first two books I wrote

of ourselves the first two books I wrote of ourselves the first two books I wrote were the first half of that the were the first half of that the were the first half of that the knowledge of God problem of God problem knowledge of God problem of God problem knowledge of God problem of God problem of Jesus we got to figure God out the of Jesus we got to figure God out the of Jesus we got to figure God out the second this book is about the knowledge second this book is about the knowledge second this book is about the knowledge of ourselves what does it mean to be of ourselves what does it mean to be of ourselves what does it mean to be human what does it mean to find identity human what does it mean to find identity human what does it mean to find identity purpose and joy what does it mean to purpose and joy what does it mean to purpose and joy what does it mean to flourish what does it mean to suffer flourish what does it mean to suffer flourish what does it mean to suffer what does it mean to die what does it what does it mean to die what does it what does it mean to die what does it mean to live what does it mean mean to live what does it mean mean to live what does it mean everything about The Human Experience everything about The Human Experience everything about The Human Experience kind of an anthropology uh uh what is kind of an anthropology uh uh what is kind of an anthropology uh uh what is the longing all of that stuff everything the longing all of that stuff everything the longing all of that stuff everything I've read and thought and preached over I've read and thought and preached over I've read and thought and preached over the last 20 years dumped into one spot the last 20 years dumped into one spot the last 20 years dumped into one spot so yes it was 20 30 years of research so yes it was 20 30 years of research so yes it was 20 30 years of research but it was the condensing of that stuff but it was the condensing of that stuff but it was the condensing of that stuff in in a way that goes okay how do I get in in a way that goes okay how do I get in in a way that goes okay how do I get this to an audience in a compelling way this to an audience in a compelling way this to an audience in a compelling way and and I just love to do that but this and and I just love to do that but this and and I just love to do that but this is why I think and the second part of is why I think and the second part of is why I think and the second part of what I was going to say earlier I've what I was going to say earlier I've what I was going to say earlier I've told a handful of people in their 40s told a handful of people in their 40s told a handful of people in their 40s keep doing this because I think you have keep doing this because I think you have keep doing this because I think you have the potential and you'd be one of those the potential and you'd be one of those the potential and you'd be one of those people Mark that uh will be read beyond people Mark that uh will be read beyond people Mark that uh will be read beyond your lifetime and studied beyond your your lifetime and studied beyond your your lifetime and studied beyond your lifetime because you look at Keller lifetime because you look at Keller lifetime because you look at Keller Keller didn't write his first book till Keller didn't write his first book till Keller didn't write his first book till he was 58 but he had done 40 50 years of he was 58 but he had done 40 50 years of he was 58 but he had done 40 50 years of prep um just studies study study and a prep um just studies study study and a prep um just studies study study and a lot of people today when they're going lot of people today when they're going lot of people today when they're going to do a series when they're going to do to do a series when they're going to do to do a series when they're going to do a message will sit down and they might a message will sit down and they might a message will sit down and they might do 6 months of reading to write a book do 6 months of reading to write a book do 6 months of reading to write a book but you've done you know in your early but you've done you know in your early but you've done you know in your early mid 40s 25 30 years of reading that goes mid 40s 25 30 years of reading that goes mid 40s 25 30 years of reading that goes into a book so when you think about that into a book so when you think about that into a book so when you think about that you know look at a typical and and this you know look at a typical and and this you know look at a typical and and this is this is what I really want to is this is what I really want to is this is what I really want to cultivate in leaders who are listening cultivate in leaders who are listening cultivate in leaders who are listening particularly young leaders like yeah

particularly young leaders like yeah particularly young leaders like yeah you're on Instagram once in a while I you're on Instagram once in a while I you're on Instagram once in a while I see you there but you're not like see you there but you're not like see you there but you're not like scrolling 5 hours a day no when you're scrolling 5 hours a day no when you're scrolling 5 hours a day no when you're when you're not actively preparing for when you're not actively preparing for when you're not actively preparing for Sunday yeah what are you reading what is Sunday yeah what are you reading what is Sunday yeah what are you reading what is that look like how do you pick your that look like how do you pick your that look like how do you pick your books because again you're you're naming books because again you're you're naming books because again you're you're naming people I've never heard of and quoting people I've never heard of and quoting people I've never heard of and quoting them at length well I think I think I them at length well I think I think I them at length well I think I think I think part of it is I I read and write think part of it is I I read and write think part of it is I I read and write in the cracks of Life uh I don't you are in the cracks of Life uh I don't you are in the cracks of Life uh I don't you are way more structured uh in your approach way more structured uh in your approach way more structured uh in your approach when you you know you wake up at 5 every when you you know you wake up at 5 every when you you know you wake up at 5 every day or 4:30 whatever it is you get a day or 4:30 whatever it is you get a day or 4:30 whatever it is you get a whole bunch done before it's you know whole bunch done before it's you know whole bunch done before it's you know before it's if I woke up at 5: I'd be before it's if I woke up at 5: I'd be before it's if I woke up at 5: I'd be like gosh it'd be like noon I'm like how like gosh it'd be like noon I'm like how like gosh it'd be like noon I'm like how isn't it dinner yet what's happening isn't it dinner yet what's happening isn't it dinner yet what's happening right now you know it's like why are we right now you know it's like why are we right now you know it's like why are we all in bed yet at five o'clock in the all in bed yet at five o'clock in the all in bed yet at five o'clock in the afternoon but it's like um you you have afternoon but it's like um you you have afternoon but it's like um you you have a very structured approach and and you a very structured approach and and you a very structured approach and and you get you're so efficient in the way you get you're so efficient in the way you get you're so efficient in the way you get things done I'm a little bit more get things done I'm a little bit more get things done I'm a little bit more organic I write and read in the cracks organic I write and read in the cracks organic I write and read in the cracks of life you're more of a free spirit of life you're more of a free spirit of life you're more of a free spirit yeah I'm sitting around at night you yeah I'm sitting around at night you yeah I'm sitting around at night you know my if my kids are working on you know my if my kids are working on you know my if my kids are working on you know my one my one daughter's a writer know my one my one daughter's a writer know my one my one daughter's a writer so she's writing a fantasy novel right so she's writing a fantasy novel right so she's writing a fantasy novel right now and so she's she'll be working on now and so she's she'll be working on now and so she's she'll be working on that and my other one's working on her that and my other one's working on her that and my other one's working on her music the other one's working on her music the other one's working on her music the other one's working on her stuff and aon's sitting there and I'm stuff and aon's sitting there and I'm stuff and aon's sitting there and I'm reading a book we don't do a lot of like reading a book we don't do a lot of like reading a book we don't do a lot of like I I'll do like movies but I don't like I I'll do like movies but I don't like I I'll do like movies but I don't like watch television I don't like turn on watch television I don't like turn on watch television I don't like turn on the TV and let it roll you know if you the TV and let it roll you know if you the TV and let it roll you know if you know I'll watch a show with my daughters know I'll watch a show with my daughters know I'll watch a show with my daughters that's like appointed we know what we're that's like appointed we know what we're that's like appointed we know what we're watching course but it's like I read and watching course but it's like I read and watching course but it's like I read and write in the cracks I read what write in the cracks I read what write in the cracks I read what interests me um I read sometimes this is interests me um I read sometimes this is interests me um I read sometimes this is really practical but I'll read others

really practical but I'll read others really practical but I'll read others about others you know Keller used to say about others you know Keller used to say about others you know Keller used to say it's very hard to read Jonathan Edwards it's very hard to read Jonathan Edwards it's very hard to read Jonathan Edwards but if you can read other people writing but if you can read other people writing but if you can read other people writing about Jonathan Edwards then you can kind about Jonathan Edwards then you can kind about Jonathan Edwards then you can kind of get the be best of Jonathan Edwards of get the be best of Jonathan Edwards of get the be best of Jonathan Edwards it's very hard to understand straight up it's very hard to understand straight up it's very hard to understand straight up Jonathan it's very difficult to Jonathan it's very difficult to Jonathan it's very difficult to cognitively get it but if you read other cognitively get it but if you read other cognitively get it but if you read other people then you're extracting kind of people then you're extracting kind of people then you're extracting kind of the best of it and so it's about that the best of it and so it's about that the best of it and so it's about that efficiency but I'm old school man I'm efficiency but I'm old school man I'm efficiency but I'm old school man I'm physical books I don't I don't read the physical books I don't I don't read the physical books I don't I don't read the only Kindle I read is like the poolside only Kindle I read is like the poolside only Kindle I read is like the poolside nonsense novel on vacation you know but nonsense novel on vacation you know but nonsense novel on vacation you know but you read fiction and non-fiction right you read fiction and non-fiction right you read fiction and non-fiction right yeah mostly non-fiction mostly yeah mostly non-fiction mostly yeah mostly non-fiction mostly non-fiction but I'll read like I the non-fiction but I'll read like I the non-fiction but I'll read like I the last book I read was the making of The last book I read was the making of The last book I read was the making of The Godfather uh called take the gun leave Godfather uh called take the gun leave Godfather uh called take the gun leave the canoli uh and uh or leave the gun the canoli uh and uh or leave the gun the canoli uh and uh or leave the gun take the canoli and it it's all about take the canoli and it it's all about take the canoli and it it's all about the making of the godf everything and the making of the godf everything and the making of the godf everything and I've read it twice and I'll just sit and I've read it twice and I'll just sit and I've read it twice and I'll just sit and read that and it's just like it gets you read that and it's just like it gets you read that and it's just like it gets you know my juices so I'll read that and know my juices so I'll read that and know my juices so I'll read that and then I'll read philosophy or psychology then I'll read philosophy or psychology then I'll read philosophy or psychology I love psychology I love social I love psychology I love social I love psychology I love social psychology I love the way human beings psychology I love the way human beings psychology I love the way human beings work and that's why so much of that work and that's why so much of that work and that's why so much of that almost glass wellan Adam Grant you know almost glass wellan Adam Grant you know almost glass wellan Adam Grant you know type stuff is is a lot of what this book type stuff is is a lot of what this book type stuff is is a lot of what this book is because it's like how what does it is because it's like how what does it is because it's like how what does it mean to interact as human beings how mean to interact as human beings how mean to interact as human beings how does you know all you thought this was does you know all you thought this was does you know all you thought this was right but it's actually wrong and all right but it's actually wrong and all right but it's actually wrong and all that you know that that you know that that you know that interesting stuff all kind of J like why interesting stuff all kind of J like why interesting stuff all kind of J like why why one of the big questions I asked why one of the big questions I asked why one of the big questions I asked near the beginning of the book why is it near the beginning of the book why is it near the beginning of the book why is it that we have that we have that we have advanced uh from a technology standpoint advanced uh from a technology standpoint advanced uh from a technology standpoint a political standpoint an educ education

a political standpoint an educ education a political standpoint an educ education standpoint medical standpoint all the standpoint medical standpoint all the standpoint medical standpoint all the things were evolving we're doing a m things were evolving we're doing a m things were evolving we're doing a m 2025 and yet all the stats are we're 2025 and yet all the stats are we're 2025 and yet all the stats are we're more depressed than we've ever been more depressed than we've ever been more depressed than we've ever been we're more isolated than we've ever been we're more isolated than we've ever been we're more isolated than we've ever been genz uh has the most amount of burnout genz uh has the most amount of burnout genz uh has the most amount of burnout uh suicide rates are 49,000 people a uh suicide rates are 49,000 people a uh suicide rates are 49,000 people a year in America alone are the suicide year in America alone are the suicide year in America alone are the suicide rates all the categories all the age rates all the categories all the age rates all the categories all the age groups have increased exponentially over groups have increased exponentially over groups have increased exponentially over the last 10 to 20 years we are more the last 10 to 20 years we are more the last 10 to 20 years we are more depressed more isolated in the UK the depressed more isolated in the UK the depressed more isolated in the UK the the average lifespan has dropped for the the average lifespan has dropped for the the average lifespan has dropped for the last three last three last three years we are we are actually doing worse years we are we are actually doing worse years we are we are actually doing worse mentally emotionally spiritually than mentally emotionally spiritually than mentally emotionally spiritually than we've ever done even though we're we've ever done even though we're we've ever done even though we're advancing in every area across the board advancing in every area across the board advancing in every area across the board how is that possible and it's the how is that possible and it's the how is that possible and it's the question of the book it's like what if question of the book it's like what if question of the book it's like what if you could solve the problem of your own you could solve the problem of your own you could solve the problem of your own soul in a different way than the world soul in a different way than the world soul in a different way than the world is presenting it you know so so you know is presenting it you know so so you know is presenting it you know so so you know you have this very high sort of metav you have this very high sort of metav you have this very high sort of metav view of philosophy Theology and you'll view of philosophy Theology and you'll view of philosophy Theology and you'll go deep and then you're eminently go deep and then you're eminently go deep and then you're eminently practical you'll tell some you know practical you'll tell some you know practical you'll tell some you know crazy story that makes people laugh out crazy story that makes people laugh out crazy story that makes people laugh out loud etc etc and you'll say something loud etc etc and you'll say something loud etc etc and you'll say something like sweating like a hooker in church like sweating like a hooker in church like sweating like a hooker in church right which is this like really really right which is this like really really right which is this like really really fascinating combination of like serious fascinating combination of like serious fascinating combination of like serious academic work and super relatable academic work and super relatable academic work and super relatable practical

practical practical bro type humor um but one of the things bro type humor um but one of the things bro type humor um but one of the things I'm glad you've you you've tackled I'm glad you've you you've tackled I'm glad you've you you've tackled anxiety and depression uh what is anxiety and depression uh what is anxiety and depression uh what is because you you dive into that quite a because you you dive into that quite a because you you dive into that quite a bit what do you think is is fueling that bit what do you think is is fueling that bit what do you think is is fueling that I mean we've all heard of or read I mean we've all heard of or read I mean we've all heard of or read Jonathan height but what's your take on Jonathan height but what's your take on Jonathan height but what's your take on the rising anxiety because I think you the rising anxiety because I think you the rising anxiety because I think you have a unique perspective on that yeah have a unique perspective on that yeah have a unique perspective on that yeah well I think you know part of the book well I think you know part of the book well I think you know part of the book is like Genesis 1 2 and 3 you know even is like Genesis 1 2 and 3 you know even is like Genesis 1 2 and 3 you know even the cover is you know the the creation the cover is you know the the creation the cover is you know the the creation of Adam cine chapel stuff so it's it's of Adam cine chapel stuff so it's it's of Adam cine chapel stuff so it's it's like what does it mean to be a human like what does it mean to be a human like what does it mean to be a human being and one of the things is we have being and one of the things is we have being and one of the things is we have tried to solve the problem of life or tried to solve the problem of life or tried to solve the problem of life or the problem of ourselves by looking to the problem of ourselves by looking to the problem of ourselves by looking to ourselves what is the fall narrative but ourselves what is the fall narrative but ourselves what is the fall narrative but a metaphor I mean it's real but it's a metaphor I mean it's real but it's a metaphor I mean it's real but it's like if you were to extract it out to like if you were to extract it out to like if you were to extract it out to our scenario now it's us trading God for our scenario now it's us trading God for our scenario now it's us trading God for fruit it's us saying we can solve our fruit it's us saying we can solve our fruit it's us saying we can solve our own problem so one of the so the way the own problem so one of the so the way the own problem so one of the so the way the the book basically functions is it's 11 the book basically functions is it's 11 the book basically functions is it's 11 chapters and every chapter is super chapters and every chapter is super chapters and every chapter is super practical like like I'm counseling you practical like like I'm counseling you practical like like I'm counseling you I'm giving you advice of how to flourish I'm giving you advice of how to flourish I'm giving you advice of how to flourish in life versus flounder in life so every in life versus flounder in life so every in life versus flounder in life so every chapter is like a do this do this do chapter is like a do this do this do chapter is like a do this do this do this do this so that you FL so you this do this so that you FL so you this do this so that you FL so you actually flourish so uh the chapters actually flourish so uh the chapters actually flourish so uh the chapters breakdown listen to the old a inside of breakdown listen to the old a inside of breakdown listen to the old a inside of you find out where you came from don't you find out where you came from don't you find out where you came from don't try to be God look up not in live as a try to be God look up not in live as a try to be God look up not in live as a Victor not a victim you know what are Victor not a victim you know what are Victor not a victim you know what are those what is that saying that's saying

those what is that saying that's saying those what is that saying that's saying like one of the problems we face is we like one of the problems we face is we like one of the problems we face is we in the garden we tried to be God we in the garden we tried to be God we in the garden we tried to be God we tried to fulfill ourselves by going okay tried to fulfill ourselves by going okay tried to fulfill ourselves by going okay I can have God or I can just kind of do I can have God or I can just kind of do I can have God or I can just kind of do me what if I just do me and we elevated me what if I just do me and we elevated me what if I just do me and we elevated we have a very elevated sense of self we have a very elevated sense of self we have a very elevated sense of self and that has happened because of the and that has happened because of the and that has happened because of the psychology uh emphasis of the last 60 psychology uh emphasis of the last 60 psychology uh emphasis of the last 60 years and and people talked about this years and and people talked about this years and and people talked about this Martin buber and other philosophers and Martin buber and other philosophers and Martin buber and other philosophers and thinkers talked about this that what thinkers talked about this that what thinkers talked about this that what we're going to move from and this is we're going to move from and this is we're going to move from and this is what's happened we're going to move from what's happened we're going to move from what's happened we're going to move from a a world of Theology and science to a a a world of Theology and science to a a a world of Theology and science to a world of psychology and what's going to world of psychology and what's going to world of psychology and what's going to happen is we're going to be all about happen is we're going to be all about happen is we're going to be all about self-actualization and personhood Theory self-actualization and personhood Theory self-actualization and personhood Theory and all about you and go inside of and all about you and go inside of and all about you and go inside of yourself and find yourself and what's yourself and find yourself and what's yourself and find yourself and what's happening is we've done that to the happening is we've done that to the happening is we've done that to the exclusion of God to the exclusion of the exclusion of God to the exclusion of the exclusion of God to the exclusion of the soul to the exclusion of the soul to the exclusion of the soul to the exclusion of the Transcendent and the spiritual and what Transcendent and the spiritual and what Transcendent and the spiritual and what we found is we can't solve ourselves we found is we can't solve ourselves we found is we can't solve ourselves which is why we're depressed why we're which is why we're depressed why we're which is why we're depressed why we're anxious why we're isolated because we've anxious why we're isolated because we've anxious why we're isolated because we've tried to solve the problem of ourselves tried to solve the problem of ourselves tried to solve the problem of ourselves with with with ourselves that's the Fall Story and God ourselves that's the Fall Story and God ourselves that's the Fall Story and God the whole time like whistling in the the whole time like whistling in the the whole time like whistling in the garden like hey where are you garden like hey where are you garden like hey where are you guys and we're all like hiding in our guys and we're all like hiding in our guys and we're all like hiding in our shame and our guilt we're trying to do shame and our guilt we're trying to do shame and our guilt we're trying to do this ourselves we thought if we just this ourselves we thought if we just this ourselves we thought if we just went inside of ourselves and figured out went inside of ourselves and figured out went inside of ourselves and figured out who we were

who we were who we were spiritually and so what I talk about is spiritually and so what I talk about is spiritually and so what I talk about is you know there's there's different you know there's there's different you know there's there's different there's different philosophies of of who there's different philosophies of of who there's different philosophies of of who you can be as a human being okay there's you can be as a human being okay there's you can be as a human being okay there's three basic options first is atheism or three basic options first is atheism or three basic options first is atheism or naturalism which is that you are a body naturalism which is that you are a body naturalism which is that you are a body but you have no soul the second is like but you have no soul the second is like but you have no soul the second is like the new age version which is you're a the new age version which is you're a the new age version which is you're a soul with no body which is what we see soul with no body which is what we see soul with no body which is what we see today right go inside yourself if you today right go inside yourself if you today right go inside yourself if you feel something in you change your body feel something in you change your body feel something in you change your body to how you feel because your body has no to how you feel because your body has no to how you feel because your body has no indicator of of your true identity it's indicator of of your true identity it's indicator of of your true identity it's just a physical thing you can change it just a physical thing you can change it just a physical thing you can change it you can adap it you can sleep with you can adap it you can sleep with you can adap it you can sleep with whever you want the physical world whever you want the physical world whever you want the physical world doesn't matter matter Shuffle off this doesn't matter matter Shuffle off this doesn't matter matter Shuffle off this Mortal coil and move on with it the Mortal coil and move on with it the Mortal coil and move on with it the first version is hey you're a animal first version is hey you're a animal first version is hey you're a animal without a soul there is no spiritual without a soul there is no spiritual without a soul there is no spiritual realm there's no Transcendent there's no realm there's no Transcendent there's no realm there's no Transcendent there's no longing there's no eternity there's no longing there's no eternity there's no longing there's no eternity there's no God there's no Heaven there's no hell God there's no Heaven there's no hell God there's no Heaven there's no hell who cares second is oh you're all Spirit who cares second is oh you're all Spirit who cares second is oh you're all Spirit who cares about the physical the who cares about the physical the who cares about the physical the biblical comes in and goes no no no biblical comes in and goes no no no biblical comes in and goes no no no you're an in soul body you you actually you're an in soul body you you actually you're an in soul body you you actually have body and soul and both of these have body and soul and both of these have body and soul and both of these things together indicate who you are as things together indicate who you are as things together indicate who you are as a person a person a person and If you deny the body or deny the and If you deny the body or deny the and If you deny the body or deny the soul you're in for a lot of trouble and soul you're in for a lot of trouble and soul you're in for a lot of trouble and the Bible presents this thing goes no no the Bible presents this thing goes no no the Bible presents this thing goes no no no you got to chase both and we're in a no you got to chase both and we're in a no you got to chase both and we're in a situation where we've said let's Elevate situation where we've said let's Elevate situation where we've said let's Elevate psychology let's Elevate psychology let's Elevate psychology let's Elevate self-actualization forget theology self-actualization forget theology self-actualization forget theology forget philosophy forget science now forget philosophy forget science now forget philosophy forget science now it's just all about you and figuring it's just all about you and figuring it's just all about you and figuring yourself out find yourself and Jesus yourself out find yourself and Jesus yourself out find yourself and Jesus comes along and goes no no no you got to comes along and goes no no no you got to comes along and goes no no no you got to deny yourself and then you're gonna F deny yourself and then you're gonna F deny yourself and then you're gonna F that's the only way to find yourself is that's the only way to find yourself is that's the only way to find yourself is deny yourself pick up your cross follow deny yourself pick up your cross follow deny yourself pick up your cross follow me all of that so the book is kind of

me all of that so the book is kind of me all of that so the book is kind of presenting this you know we've talked presenting this you know we've talked presenting this you know we've talked about this before where we're seeing a about this before where we're seeing a about this before where we're seeing a bit of a revolution right now like among bit of a revolution right now like among bit of a revolution right now like among young people you've talked about this on young people you've talked about this on young people you've talked about this on your pod a bunch in your in your um in your pod a bunch in your in your um in your pod a bunch in your in your um in your blogs and newsletters where you're your blogs and newsletters where you're your blogs and newsletters where you're seeing revivals at colleges all across seeing revivals at colleges all across seeing revivals at colleges all across America you're seeing people talk about America you're seeing people talk about America you're seeing people talk about so one of the things I talk about in the so one of the things I talk about in the so one of the things I talk about in the book is there's this um guy who who he book is there's this um guy who who he book is there's this um guy who who he was like the prim minister of Bulgaria was like the prim minister of Bulgaria was like the prim minister of Bulgaria for years and years and communism for years and years and communism for years and years and communism basically destroyed his his country and basically destroyed his his country and basically destroyed his his country and he got up and gave this spe speech and he got up and gave this spe speech and he got up and gave this spe speech and he said here's the interpretation right he said here's the interpretation right he said here's the interpretation right there's no there's no morality in my there's no there's no morality in my there's no there's no morality in my country everything the economy is a country everything the economy is a country everything the economy is a disaster everything's a disaster and disaster everything's a disaster and disaster everything's a disaster and everyone interprets it through a everyone interprets it through a everyone interprets it through a political lens which is that communism political lens which is that communism political lens which is that communism killed my country and he said the killed my country and he said the killed my country and he said the reality is it's not true atheism killed reality is it's not true atheism killed reality is it's not true atheism killed my country and he said what happened is my country and he said what happened is my country and he said what happened is you took God out of the equation and now you took God out of the equation and now you took God out of the equation and now there's no morality there's no there's no morality there's no there's no morality there's no Transcendent there's no meaning there's Transcendent there's no meaning there's Transcendent there's no meaning there's no purpose there's no eternity there's no purpose there's no eternity there's no purpose there's no eternity there's no value there's nothing and then he no value there's nothing and then he no value there's nothing and then he says this but here's what's happening says this but here's what's happening says this but here's what's happening among the young people they're starting among the young people they're starting among the young people they're starting to plant churches they're starting to to plant churches they're starting to to plant churches they're starting to pray they're starting to want the Bible pray they're starting to want the Bible pray they're starting to want the Bible and he says this because here's what's and he says this because here's what's and he says this because here's what's happening it's a re ution of the Soul happening it's a re ution of the Soul happening it's a re ution of the Soul against against against soullessness whoa and it's that we as a soullessness whoa and it's that we as a soullessness whoa and it's that we as a culture have so bought into the souless culture have so bought into the souless culture have so bought into the souless version of reality just go about your version of reality just go about your version of reality just go about your life get a nin to-5 raise some kids go life get a nin to-5 raise some kids go life get a nin to-5 raise some kids go get a nice house go get a car get the get a nice house go get a car get the get a nice house go get a car get the latest whatever right oh that 2023 Tesla latest whatever right oh that 2023 Tesla latest whatever right oh that 2023 Tesla is so old you need the new one you know is so old you need the new one you know is so old you need the new one you know you gota you gota and what we've done is you gota you gota and what we've done is you gota you gota and what we've done is we've just the soul has has just

we've just the soul has has just we've just the soul has has just shriveled we have no nothing to look up shriveled we have no nothing to look up shriveled we have no nothing to look up not in is one of the chapters like make not in is one of the chapters like make not in is one of the chapters like make realize the world is an realize the world is an realize the world is an enchanted beautiful God fused amazing enchanted beautiful God fused amazing enchanted beautiful God fused amazing place and your decision at the end of place and your decision at the end of place and your decision at the end of the day is to recognize that or to walk the day is to recognize that or to walk the day is to recognize that or to walk away from it and to live an anxious un away from it and to live an anxious un away from it and to live an anxious un you know all it so the story I tell at you know all it so the story I tell at you know all it so the story I tell at the beginning of the book Carri is a the beginning of the book Carri is a the beginning of the book Carri is a story you've heard before but I don't story you've heard before but I don't story you've heard before but I don't know that that I'm sure most listeners know that that I'm sure most listeners know that that I'm sure most listeners haven't heard it but it is it is a true haven't heard it but it is it is a true haven't heard it but it is it is a true story let me just tell you this you did story let me just tell you this you did story let me just tell you this you did not make this up I did not if I made not make this up I did not if I made not make this up I did not if I made this up yeah I there'd be a problem I'd this up yeah I there'd be a problem I'd this up yeah I there'd be a problem I'd be sued um so this actually happened to be sued um so this actually happened to be sued um so this actually happened to me I was 29 years old the whole book me I was 29 years old the whole book me I was 29 years old the whole book opens with this story I the day I told a opens with this story I the day I told a opens with this story I the day I told a woman that her husband was dead and I woman that her husband was dead and I woman that her husband was dead and I had the wrong guy so I'm 29 years old I had the wrong guy so I'm 29 years old I had the wrong guy so I'm 29 years old I go for a hospital visit I go for a go for a hospital visit I go for a go for a hospital visit I go for a hospital visit and I hang out with the hospital visit and I hang out with the hospital visit and I hang out with the guy Dave on a Friday then I go home for guy Dave on a Friday then I go home for guy Dave on a Friday then I go home for the weekend and then I go back on a the weekend and then I go back on a the weekend and then I go back on a Monday I park my car I don't check into Monday I park my car I don't check into Monday I park my car I don't check into the nurses station I walk into the room the nurses station I walk into the room the nurses station I walk into the room I see a guy he looks exactly like Dave I see a guy he looks exactly like Dave I see a guy he looks exactly like Dave and his face is turned toward the window and his face is turned toward the window and his face is turned toward the window and as I go around to say hi to him the and as I go around to say hi to him the and as I go around to say hi to him the nurse turns me around and says what are nurse turns me around and says what are nurse turns me around and says what are you doing here I said oh I'm here for a you doing here I said oh I'm here for a you doing here I said oh I'm here for a pastoral visit and she says I'm sorry he pastoral visit and she says I'm sorry he pastoral visit and she says I'm sorry he passed away this morning now if your passed away this morning now if your passed away this morning now if your listeners are wondering what you do as a listeners are wondering what you do as a listeners are wondering what you do as a pastor in those moments when someone pastor in those moments when someone pastor in those moments when someone says they says they says they passed away say

who who passed away what's his name who who passed away what's his name right spell it for me but I didn't do right spell it for me but I didn't do right spell it for me but I didn't do any of that I just said oh okay Dave any of that I just said oh okay Dave any of that I just said oh okay Dave must be dead in my brain I went back to must be dead in my brain I went back to must be dead in my brain I went back to the office told the secretary Dave's the office told the secretary Dave's the office told the secretary Dave's dead two hours later Dave's uh wife of dead two hours later Dave's uh wife of dead two hours later Dave's uh wife of 50 years comes by the church with a 50 years comes by the church with a 50 years comes by the church with a Subway sandwich waiting to bring it to Subway sandwich waiting to bring it to Subway sandwich waiting to bring it to Dave on her way to go visit him the the Dave on her way to go visit him the the Dave on her way to go visit him the the secretary comes in she's like I don't secretary comes in she's like I don't secretary comes in she's like I don't think his wife knows that he's dead I'm think his wife knows that he's dead I'm think his wife knows that he's dead I'm like what send her back so she walked like what send her back so she walked like what send her back so she walked walks back and hear my 29-year-old self walks back and hear my 29-year-old self walks back and hear my 29-year-old self in my office hey how you doing good well in my office hey how you doing good well in my office hey how you doing good well here's the thing Dave's here's the thing Dave's here's the thing Dave's dead at which point Carrie she passed dead at which point Carrie she passed dead at which point Carrie she passed out in my office on the couch I sit her out in my office on the couch I sit her out in my office on the couch I sit her down and we mourn the death of David for down and we mourn the death of David for down and we mourn the death of David for an hour we plan his funeral we talk an hour we plan his funeral we talk an hour we plan his funeral we talk about his life Carrie I walked out to about his life Carrie I walked out to about his life Carrie I walked out to the office to get her a glass of water the office to get her a glass of water the office to get her a glass of water and I overheard one of the secretaries and I overheard one of the secretaries and I overheard one of the secretaries talking to one of the other secretaries talking to one of the other secretaries talking to one of the other secretaries and talking about the fact Dave had gone and talking about the fact Dave had gone and talking about the fact Dave had gone to ex hospital that was not the hospital to ex hospital that was not the hospital to ex hospital that was not the hospital I went to that I went to that I went to that morning I said what are you talking morning I said what are you talking morning I said what are you talking about Dave's at this Hospital they're about Dave's at this Hospital they're about Dave's at this Hospital they're like no they moved him on Saturday oh like no they moved him on Saturday oh like no they moved him on Saturday oh boy and I'm like sorry what so I called boy and I'm like sorry what so I called boy and I'm like sorry what so I called up that other hospital and I said I want up that other hospital and I said I want up that other hospital and I said I want to talk to Dave and they said yeah to talk to Dave and they said yeah to talk to Dave and they said yeah Dave's here he's waiting for his lunch Dave's here he's waiting for his lunch Dave's here he's waiting for his lunch and I'm like uh oh gosh so I had to walk and I'm like uh oh gosh so I had to walk and I'm like uh oh gosh so I had to walk back into the room where Dave's wife was back into the room where Dave's wife was back into the room where Dave's wife was and I'm like hey how you doing remember and I'm like hey how you doing remember and I'm like hey how you doing remember that thing we were talking about you that thing we were talking about you that thing we were talking about you know and I'm and I said uh I'm sorry I know and I'm and I said uh I'm sorry I know and I'm and I said uh I'm sorry I uh Dave Dave's alive and I thought she

uh Dave Dave's alive and I thought she uh Dave Dave's alive and I thought she would you know appreciate it or would you know appreciate it or would you know appreciate it or something um and she's like what are you something um and she's like what are you something um and she's like what are you talking about I'll never forget that talking about I'll never forget that talking about I'll never forget that look at her just like what are you look at her just like what are you look at her just like what are you talking about and I and I and I made talking about and I and I and I made talking about and I and I and I made this massive mistake and she left and this massive mistake and she left and this massive mistake and she left and now and here's why I tell the story at now and here's why I tell the story at now and here's why I tell the story at the beginning of the book I say I the beginning of the book I say I the beginning of the book I say I oftentimes think about what it was like oftentimes think about what it was like oftentimes think about what it was like when she walked into the room and she when she walked into the room and she when she walked into the room and she got David back every every smile every got David back every every smile every got David back every every smile every conversation every time he blinked there conversation every time he blinked there conversation every time he blinked there was something there was something about was something there was something about was something there was something about it that meant more soulish things things it that meant more soulish things things it that meant more soulish things things that that go beyond the world of the that that go beyond the world of the that that go beyond the world of the material and the natural in the everyday material and the natural in the everyday material and the natural in the everyday nonsense that we do just going through nonsense that we do just going through nonsense that we do just going through life trying to be married and raise kids life trying to be married and raise kids life trying to be married and raise kids and go there was something else going on and go there was something else going on and go there was something else going on in and and this is what the Human in and and this is what the Human in and and this is what the Human Experience is it's the it's the Experience is it's the it's the Experience is it's the it's the experience to say am I willing to chase experience to say am I willing to chase experience to say am I willing to chase down the Transcendent so I can find down the Transcendent so I can find down the Transcendent so I can find myself and flourish or am I going to myself and flourish or am I going to myself and flourish or am I going to exclude the Transcendent and just try to exclude the Transcendent and just try to exclude the Transcendent and just try to carry on and it'll kill me every time carry on and it'll kill me every time carry on and it'll kill me every time it'll weigh me down with a burden that it'll weigh me down with a burden that it'll weigh me down with a burden that we were never meant to bear as human we were never meant to bear as human we were never meant to bear as human beings so yeah I don't really have an beings so yeah I don't really have an beings so yeah I don't really have an analogous experience in my life but now analogous experience in my life but now analogous experience in my life but now everyone is prepared to you don't want everyone is prepared to you don't want everyone is prepared to you don't want one believe me you want a fact check all one believe me you want a fact check all one believe me you want a fact check all right definitely covers some of some right definitely covers some of some right definitely covers some of some really profound issues but one of the really profound issues but one of the really profound issues but one of the ones I'm really glad you talk about ones I'm really glad you talk about ones I'm really glad you talk about because I don't think we're talking because I don't think we're talking because I don't think we're talking about it honestly right now as death and about it honestly right now as death and about it honestly right now as death and yeah the story points to death but a lot yeah the story points to death but a lot yeah the story points to death but a lot of people have superficial ideas about

of people have superficial ideas about of people have superficial ideas about what happens after you die ah we just what happens after you die ah we just what happens after you die ah we just vaporize you know or I don't know vaporize you know or I don't know vaporize you know or I don't know nothing happens or if you look at the nothing happens or if you look at the nothing happens or if you look at the mega Rich uh what are they doing right mega Rich uh what are they doing right mega Rich uh what are they doing right now they're shooting for transhumanism now they're shooting for transhumanism now they're shooting for transhumanism this idea that will live forever this idea that will live forever this idea that will live forever predictions are by 20135 diseases will predictions are by 20135 diseases will predictions are by 20135 diseases will be cured and you can live to 150 or be cured and you can live to 150 or be cured and you can live to 150 or forever Etc and of course when you forever Etc and of course when you forever Etc and of course when you conquered everything on Earth what are conquered everything on Earth what are conquered everything on Earth what are you going to do try to conquer Mars try you going to do try to conquer Mars try you going to do try to conquer Mars try to live forever there's nothing left if to live forever there's nothing left if to live forever there's nothing left if you got a gazillion dollars so I would you got a gazillion dollars so I would you got a gazillion dollars so I would love what what was your take on death love what what was your take on death love what what was your take on death like yeah you know because that's a real like yeah you know because that's a real like yeah you know because that's a real popular subject to write books about popular subject to write books about popular subject to write books about yeah well well it it takes up the last yeah well well it it takes up the last yeah well well it it takes up the last two chapters of course because you can't two chapters of course because you can't two chapters of course because you can't write about you can't write about life write about you can't write about life write about you can't write about life uh without writing about death because uh without writing about death because uh without writing about death because you know the naturalist view of the you know the naturalist view of the you know the naturalist view of the world is is Carrie you get 77 years 76 world is is Carrie you get 77 years 76 world is is Carrie you get 77 years 76 years whatever it is maybe by the time years whatever it is maybe by the time years whatever it is maybe by the time we get older it's going to be older uh we get older it's going to be older uh we get older it's going to be older uh and that's it and and the question the and that's it and and the question the and that's it and and the question the question of uh if if everything that question of uh if if everything that question of uh if if everything that that we believe is true uh that's not that we believe is true uh that's not that we believe is true uh that's not that's not true you don't only you know that's not true you don't only you know that's not true you don't only you know I say YOLO you know YOLO no no it's I say YOLO you know YOLO no no it's I say YOLO you know YOLO no no it's actually Yol Which is far less catchy uh actually Yol Which is far less catchy uh actually Yol Which is far less catchy uh you don't live only once you live twice you don't live only once you live twice you don't live only once you live twice and the question is not just about your and the question is not just about your and the question is not just about your 80 years on this planet it's the 80 80 years on this planet it's the 80 80 years on this planet it's the 80 billion years that we're going to spend billion years that we're going to spend billion years that we're going to spend after this and the 80 billion after that after this and the 80 billion after that after this and the 80 billion after that and as Dallas Willard talks about you and as Dallas Willard talks about you and as Dallas Willard talks about you have to ask the question have to ask the question have to ask the question you know he gives he gives the analogy I you know he gives he gives the analogy I you know he gives he gives the analogy I talk about this about the parable of the talk about this about the parable of the talk about this about the parable of the talents you know this guy did this and talents you know this guy did this and talents you know this guy did this and he got five bucks and then he got 10 he got five bucks and then he got 10 he got five bucks and then he got 10 bucks and he got 100 bucks and and and bucks and he got 100 bucks and and and bucks and he got 100 bucks and and and God divies that all out says you did God divies that all out says you did God divies that all out says you did really good Carrie I'm gonna give you

really good Carrie I'm gonna give you really good Carrie I'm gonna give you five cities and and and and and then I'm five cities and and and and and then I'm five cities and and and and and then I'm gonna give you 20 cities and and and and gonna give you 20 cities and and and and gonna give you 20 cities and and and and Willard Willard asked the question he Willard Willard asked the question he Willard Willard asked the question he says you might instead of just thinking says you might instead of just thinking says you might instead of just thinking about heaven as this place where you're about heaven as this place where you're about heaven as this place where you're gonna sit around and sing for a billion gonna sit around and sing for a billion gonna sit around and sing for a billion years which makes us all want to be like years which makes us all want to be like years which makes us all want to be like oh my gosh you know I can't sing I hate oh my gosh you know I can't sing I hate oh my gosh you know I can't sing I hate singing I hate you know whatever it's singing I hate you know whatever it's singing I hate you know whatever it's like you might want to ask the question like you might want to ask the question like you might want to ask the question if you were given Liverpool or Baltimore if you were given Liverpool or Baltimore if you were given Liverpool or Baltimore or New York City right now how would you or New York City right now how would you or New York City right now how would you run it because that is going to indicate run it because that is going to indicate run it because that is going to indicate what your eternity is going to be like what your eternity is going to be like what your eternity is going to be like more than just sitting around singing more than just sitting around singing more than just sitting around singing and there's this like massive view of oh and there's this like massive view of oh and there's this like massive view of oh my goodness what is eternity gonna be my goodness what is eternity gonna be my goodness what is eternity gonna be like and Willard says you're gonna like and Willard says you're gonna like and Willard says you're gonna actually exist within the same universe actually exist within the same universe actually exist within the same universe that you exist now it's just now you got that you exist now it's just now you got that you exist now it's just now you got 80 billion years and the 80 billion 80 billion years and the 80 billion 80 billion years and the 80 billion after that and the 80 billion so all of after that and the 80 billion so all of after that and the 80 billion so all of this 80 years is prepping us for the this 80 years is prepping us for the this 80 years is prepping us for the next billion and billion and billion and next billion and billion and billion and next billion and billion and billion and billion and so once you have that billion and so once you have that billion and so once you have that perspective and you begin to like the perspective and you begin to like the perspective and you begin to like the Book of Ecclesiastes work backward from Book of Ecclesiastes work backward from Book of Ecclesiastes work backward from there well that makes Tuesday Morning there well that makes Tuesday Morning there well that makes Tuesday Morning matter you know that makes what how you matter you know that makes what how you matter you know that makes what how you treat your neighbor matter that means treat your neighbor matter that means treat your neighbor matter that means how you treat your wife matter that how you treat your wife matter that how you treat your wife matter that means what you do with money matters means what you do with money matters means what you do with money matters everything is intensified at every everything is intensified at every everything is intensified at every moment every you know CS Lewis says moment every you know CS Lewis says moment every you know CS Lewis says you've never met an ordinary person the you've never met an ordinary person the you've never met an ordinary person the only people you've ever met are going to only people you've ever met are going to only people you've ever met are going to be Eternal glories or Eternal Horrors be Eternal glories or Eternal Horrors be Eternal glories or Eternal Horrors that you could never even imagine and that you could never even imagine and that you could never even imagine and every moment of your life is spent every moment of your life is spent every moment of your life is spent guiding people to one of those two ends guiding people to one of those two ends guiding people to one of those two ends so that's the question of death it's so that's the question of death it's so that's the question of death it's like do okay so here's how I open the like do okay so here's how I open the like do okay so here's how I open the chapter on death this is a totally true chapter on death this is a totally true chapter on death this is a totally true story my friend um I don't know if I

story my friend um I don't know if I story my friend um I don't know if I told you the story uh my friend was in told you the story uh my friend was in told you the story uh my friend was in Hawaii in Hawaii in Hawaii in 2018 with his family they're all sitting 2018 with his family they're all sitting 2018 with his family they're all sitting there he's got three kids and they're there he's got three kids and they're there he's got three kids and they're all down on the beach hanging out and a all down on the beach hanging out and a all down on the beach hanging out and a text message comes through on their text message comes through on their text message comes through on their phone ballistic missile phone ballistic missile phone ballistic missile inbound for inbound for inbound for Hawaii seek shelter that's what it says Hawaii seek shelter that's what it says Hawaii seek shelter that's what it says okay and everybody's phone goes off all okay and everybody's phone goes off all okay and everybody's phone goes off all around around around him and he's like what is happening and him and he's like what is happening and him and he's like what is happening and he looks at his kids and they say what he looks at his kids and they say what he looks at his kids and they say what what is it Dad and he say there's a what is it Dad and he say there's a what is it Dad and he say there's a there's a ballistic missile headed there's a ballistic missile headed there's a ballistic missile headed toward us right now and you're in Hawaii toward us right now and you're in Hawaii toward us right now and you're in Hawaii I mean this tiny little speck of dirt I mean this tiny little speck of dirt I mean this tiny little speck of dirt hanging out of the Pacific Ocean right hanging out of the Pacific Ocean right hanging out of the Pacific Ocean right and so they just look up and they just and so they just look up and they just and so they just look up and they just wait for a missile to kill wait for a missile to kill wait for a missile to kill so they he calls his wife and she so they he calls his wife and she so they he calls his wife and she doesn't pick up the phone so they run up doesn't pick up the phone so they run up doesn't pick up the phone so they run up to the room to find his wife and they to the room to find his wife and they to the room to find his wife and they don't she's not there they run back down don't she's not there they run back down don't she's not there they run back down to the lobby and carry every religion in to the lobby and carry every religion in to the lobby and carry every religion in the world it was like a picture it's the world it was like a picture it's the world it was like a picture it's like a scene from Independence Day or like a scene from Independence Day or like a scene from Independence Day or something right every religion's praying something right every religion's praying something right every religion's praying to their God everyone's on the hotel to their God everyone's on the hotel to their God everyone's on the hotel lobby crying you know his kids are lobby crying you know his kids are lobby crying you know his kids are accepting Christ again everyone's like accepting Christ again everyone's like accepting Christ again everyone's like everyone's just balling and this is the everyone's just balling and this is the everyone's just balling and this is the end man this is the end they're dead end man this is the end they're dead end man this is the end they're dead it's certain and keep calling the wife it's certain and keep calling the wife it's certain and keep calling the wife nothing nothing nothing so finally after nothing nothing nothing so finally after nothing nothing nothing so finally after I don't know what it was 36 minutes or I don't know what it was 36 minutes or I don't know what it was 36 minutes or something which would have something which would have something which would have felt 36 hours yeah yeah exactly um felt 36 hours yeah yeah exactly um felt 36 hours yeah yeah exactly um another text comes through and basically another text comes through and basically another text comes through and basically says you know I don't know Tom hit a says you know I don't know Tom hit a says you know I don't know Tom hit a button sorry you know story I remember

button sorry you know story I remember button sorry you know story I remember that story in the book it's like that story in the book it's like that story in the book it's like whatever this isn't real the ballistic whatever this isn't real the ballistic whatever this isn't real the ballistic missile's not coming whatever and of missile's not coming whatever and of missile's not coming whatever and of course everyone course everyone course everyone celebrates so they go back up to the celebrates so they go back up to the celebrates so they go back up to the room and they find his wife and she's room and they find his wife and she's room and they find his wife and she's just coming out of the shower and the just coming out of the shower and the just coming out of the shower and the kids of course run up to her and hug her kids of course run up to her and hug her kids of course run up to her and hug her and oh my gosh Mommy where have you been and oh my gosh Mommy where have you been and oh my gosh Mommy where have you been where have you been and they're crying where have you been and they're crying where have you been and they're crying and she looks at them and she's like and she looks at them and she's like and she looks at them and she's like what is wrong with y'all and they're what is wrong with y'all and they're what is wrong with y'all and they're like what what do you mean and they're like what what do you mean and they're like what what do you mean and they're like where have you been and she's like like where have you been and she's like like where have you been and she's like oh I was I was down working out I was oh I was I was down working out I was oh I was I was down working out I was running on the treadmill and I met this running on the treadmill and I met this running on the treadmill and I met this wonderful woman and we had this great wonderful woman and we had this great wonderful woman and we had this great conversation about we redoing the conversation about we redoing the conversation about we redoing the kitchen and what school you guys are kitchen and what school you guys are kitchen and what school you guys are going to go to and we had our phones off going to go to and we had our phones off going to go to and we had our phones off in fact I've had my phone off this whole in fact I've had my phone off this whole in fact I've had my phone off this whole time a nice chat all the way up the time a nice chat all the way up the time a nice chat all the way up the elevator I came back to the room I took elevator I came back to the room I took elevator I came back to the room I took a shower and I'm getting out to all this a shower and I'm getting out to all this a shower and I'm getting out to all this what is what's what's your what is what's what's your what is what's what's your problem and I I talk about the idea that problem and I I talk about the idea that problem and I I talk about the idea that what is the difference between those two what is the difference between those two what is the difference between those two people the one knew that death was people the one knew that death was people the one knew that death was imminent it was it was on the other side imminent it was it was on the other side imminent it was it was on the other side of the veil it was so close that it of the veil it was so close that it of the veil it was so close that it caused all the existential questions of caused all the existential questions of caused all the existential questions of life to rise to the surface everything life to rise to the surface everything life to rise to the surface everything had meaning and for her she was running had meaning and for her she was running had meaning and for her she was running on a treadmill talking about you do in on a treadmill talking about you do in on a treadmill talking about you do in the kitchen and everyone in the world is the kitchen and everyone in the world is the kitchen and everyone in the world is one of those two people you are either one of those two people you are either one of those two people you are either so in touch with the Transcendent and so in touch with the Transcendent and so in touch with the Transcendent and the soul and the spiritual and the big the soul and the spiritual and the big the soul and the spiritual and the big questions of life and death and Eternity questions of life and death and Eternity questions of life and death and Eternity that it's causing you to take every that it's causing you to take every that it's causing you to take every moment captive and carp DM Seize the Day

moment captive and carp DM Seize the Day moment captive and carp DM Seize the Day make your lives Extraordinary Gentlemen make your lives Extraordinary Gentlemen make your lives Extraordinary Gentlemen all of that or you're running on a all of that or you're running on a all of that or you're running on a treadmill talking about treadmill talking about treadmill talking about schools and you know redoing the kitchen schools and you know redoing the kitchen schools and you know redoing the kitchen and should I get some you know what and and should I get some you know what and and should I get some you know what and it's like yeah temporal things are it's like yeah temporal things are it's like yeah temporal things are important but temporal things can important but temporal things can important but temporal things can distract you important things can distract you important things can distract you important things can distract you from most important distract you from most important distract you from most important things and most important things are things and most important things are things and most important things are what we've got to answer to make life what we've got to answer to make life what we've got to answer to make life meaningful wow Mark I'll tell you the meaningful wow Mark I'll tell you the meaningful wow Mark I'll tell you the way you tell stories the way you weave way you tell stories the way you weave way you tell stories the way you weave it together the scholarship everything it together the scholarship everything it together the scholarship everything it's a it's a rare gift and the book is it's a it's a rare gift and the book is it's a it's a rare gift and the book is called the problem of Life yes sir it's called the problem of Life yes sir it's called the problem of Life yes sir it's aailable everywhere and uh it does have aailable everywhere and uh it does have aailable everywhere and uh it does have beautiful cover I remember we're sitting beautiful cover I remember we're sitting beautiful cover I remember we're sitting around my kitchen island looking at around my kitchen island looking at around my kitchen island looking at early manuscripts and you're like I early manuscripts and you're like I early manuscripts and you're like I think I think I want to do a color with think I think I want to do a color with think I think I want to do a color with like Michelangelo kind of thing and yeah like Michelangelo kind of thing and yeah like Michelangelo kind of thing and yeah it looks gorgeous yeah it's great it looks gorgeous yeah it's great it looks gorgeous yeah it's great creation of Adam um and uh I always love creation of Adam um and uh I always love creation of Adam um and uh I always love your impersonation of my voice too oh your impersonation of my voice too oh your impersonation of my voice too oh yeah yeah you got to go get uh problem yeah yeah you got to go get uh problem yeah yeah you got to go get uh problem with life here no I'm not doing it with life here no I'm not doing it with life here no I'm not doing it particularly well today but uh I love it particularly well today but uh I love it particularly well today but uh I love it it's a little intimidating the years it's a little intimidating the years it's a little intimidating the years smoking or whatever but yeah no it's uh smoking or whatever but yeah no it's uh smoking or whatever but yeah no it's uh it really is it's it's I I love the it really is it's it's I I love the it really is it's it's I I love the Artistry I love the whole aesthetic and Artistry I love the whole aesthetic and Artistry I love the whole aesthetic and Beauty piece of it which is part of what Beauty piece of it which is part of what Beauty piece of it which is part of what the whole you know uh part of the theme the whole you know uh part of the theme the whole you know uh part of the theme and the content of the book too is like and the content of the book too is like and the content of the book too is like everything when you're walking at night everything when you're walking at night everything when you're walking at night with your wife you know you have those with your wife you know you have those with your wife you know you have those moments where it's like life can be moments where it's like life can be moments where it's like life can be whatever and then you have those moments whatever and then you have those moments whatever and then you have those moments where something just feels like it hit

where something just feels like it hit where something just feels like it hit different as my kids would say you know different as my kids would say you know different as my kids would say you know you're you're listening to a piece of you're you're listening to a piece of you're you're listening to a piece of music remember that scene in amadas music remember that scene in amadas music remember that scene in amadas where Sally Aries like I looked at what where Sally Aries like I looked at what where Sally Aries like I looked at what amadas wrote and it was like he was amadas wrote and it was like he was amadas wrote and it was like he was transcribing music yes it's like it's transcribing music yes it's like it's transcribing music yes it's like it's like there's another world and once in a like there's another world and once in a like there's another world and once in a while we get a peak of it I think every while we get a peak of it I think every while we get a peak of it I think every creator has had a moment like that where creator has had a moment like that where creator has had a moment like that where I don't feel I mean some of the stuff I I don't feel I mean some of the stuff I I don't feel I mean some of the stuff I definitely wrote but some of the stuff definitely wrote but some of the stuff definitely wrote but some of the stuff it's like I didn't write that I just it it's like I didn't write that I just it it's like I didn't write that I just it was always there it was always there and was always there it was always there and was always there it was always there and I grabbed it I found it I discovered it I grabbed it I found it I discovered it I grabbed it I found it I discovered it I discovered it it was already there but I discovered it it was already there but I discovered it it was already there but there are certain messages certain ideas there are certain messages certain ideas there are certain messages certain ideas where I'm like yeah I can't claim credit where I'm like yeah I can't claim credit where I'm like yeah I can't claim credit I just I kept digging and there it was I just I kept digging and there it was I just I kept digging and there it was yep and that's what the first couple yep and that's what the first couple yep and that's what the first couple chapters are about it's like that chapters are about it's like that chapters are about it's like that digging is exactly what life is it digging is exactly what life is it digging is exactly what life is it shouldn't be naturalism will tell you shouldn't be naturalism will tell you shouldn't be naturalism will tell you that's just an artifact and a wiring in that's just an artifact and a wiring in that's just an artifact and a wiring in your brain from the time you're an your brain from the time you're an your brain from the time you're an animal and you were trying to make sense animal and you were trying to make sense animal and you were trying to make sense of the world and Christianity would say of the world and Christianity would say of the world and Christianity would say no no no that you know as one writer has no no no that you know as one writer has no no no that you know as one writer has said I always wondered where the beauty said I always wondered where the beauty said I always wondered where the beauty came from it's like that is actually the came from it's like that is actually the came from it's like that is actually the longing you're supposed to chase because longing you're supposed to chase because longing you're supposed to chase because it's going to lead you to The God Who it's going to lead you to The God Who it's going to lead you to The God Who wired you as a soul not just an animal wired you as a soul not just an animal wired you as a soul not just an animal and chasing that like those little and chasing that like those little and chasing that like those little moments those those glimpses of moments those those glimpses of moments those those glimpses of something deeper man that is what makes something deeper man that is what makes something deeper man that is what makes life meaningful it's also what makes life meaningful it's also what makes life meaningful it's also what makes suffering suffering without meaning is suffering suffering without meaning is suffering suffering without meaning is despair every one of us has suffering despair every one of us has suffering despair every one of us has suffering and Victor Frankl I talk about this in and Victor Frankl I talk about this in and Victor Frankl I talk about this in the chap one of the biggest chapters in

the chap one of the biggest chapters in the chap one of the biggest chapters in the book is on suffering because we all the book is on suffering because we all the book is on suffering because we all face suffering it's life is suffering face suffering it's life is suffering face suffering it's life is suffering right life kicks back and and the world right life kicks back and and the world right life kicks back and and the world is not meant to contain gods and is not meant to contain gods and is not meant to contain gods and goddesses that that Triumph it's it's goddesses that that Triumph it's it's goddesses that that Triumph it's it's meant to contain you and I which are meant to contain you and I which are meant to contain you and I which are losers we we you know life we have losers we we you know life we have losers we we you know life we have moments of greatness but it's like life moments of greatness but it's like life moments of greatness but it's like life beats up on us we're gonna get the beats up on us we're gonna get the beats up on us we're gonna get the diagnosis and we're not going to beat it diagnosis and we're not going to beat it diagnosis and we're not going to beat it we're gonna you know we're gonna have we're gonna you know we're gonna have we're gonna you know we're gonna have financial problems we're gonna have financial problems we're gonna have financial problems we're gonna have marriage problems we're gonna have you marriage problems we're gonna have you marriage problems we're gonna have you all the stuff and it's like how Victor all the stuff and it's like how Victor all the stuff and it's like how Victor Franco says when he was in uh the Franco says when he was in uh the Franco says when he was in uh the Concentration Camp you know what kept Concentration Camp you know what kept Concentration Camp you know what kept Him going what kept Victor Franco going Him going what kept Victor Franco going Him going what kept Victor Franco going when he was in concentration camp his when he was in concentration camp his when he was in concentration camp his his parents had been taken to uh I think his parents had been taken to uh I think his parents had been taken to uh I think bson and died and his wife had been bson and died and his wife had been bson and died and his wife had been taken a schwitz I believe and he said I taken a schwitz I believe and he said I taken a schwitz I believe and he said I would wake up in the morning and I would would wake up in the morning and I would would wake up in the morning and I would see the beautiful outline of her hair see the beautiful outline of her hair see the beautiful outline of her hair and her face and I would remember her and her face and I would remember her and her face and I would remember her laugh and it was the gorgeous picture of laugh and it was the gorgeous picture of laugh and it was the gorgeous picture of her that kept me going and it's like we her that kept me going and it's like we her that kept me going and it's like we need pictures of heaven and God face to need pictures of heaven and God face to need pictures of heaven and God face to face and beauty and joy and purpose and face and beauty and joy and purpose and face and beauty and joy and purpose and identity in those moments of suffering identity in those moments of suffering identity in those moments of suffering so that we can wake up in the morning so that we can wake up in the morning so that we can wake up in the morning and our suffering just doesn't become and our suffering just doesn't become and our suffering just doesn't become despair but he said if you have that despair but he said if you have that despair but he said if you have that beauty in front of you you can make it beauty in front of you you can make it beauty in front of you you can make it through the day because you have through the day because you have through the day because you have something that's giving you meaning and something that's giving you meaning and something that's giving you meaning and purpose and fusing life with purpose and purpose and fusing life with purpose and purpose and fusing life with purpose and meaning and so that those are the kind meaning and so that those are the kind meaning and so that those are the kind of things I wanted to try to capture and of things I wanted to try to capture and of things I wanted to try to capture and say how are you ever gonna Suffer Well say how are you ever gonna Suffer Well say how are you ever gonna Suffer Well in this life you have to have God in this life you have to have God in this life you have to have God involved or else you are going to be an involved or else you are going to be an involved or else you are going to be an anxious generation as you talked about anxious generation as you talked about anxious generation as you talked about earlier or ex a depressed generation a earlier or ex a depressed generation a earlier or ex a depressed generation a Lost Generation so yeah well Mark I'm so

Lost Generation so yeah well Mark I'm so Lost Generation so yeah well Mark I'm so grateful for you uh obviously problem grateful for you uh obviously problem grateful for you uh obviously problem life available everywhere if people want life available everywhere if people want life available everywhere if people want to track with you these days where are to track with you these days where are to track with you these days where are you active online yeah um we'll see you active online yeah um we'll see you active online yeah um we'll see Instagram uh do a little Facebook do a Instagram uh do a little Facebook do a Instagram uh do a little Facebook do a little Twitter stuff and we'll see little Twitter stuff and we'll see little Twitter stuff and we'll see Instagram and uh yeah and I have uh thek Instagram and uh yeah and I have uh thek Instagram and uh yeah and I have uh thek the mark Clark podcast every week an the mark Clark podcast every week an the mark Clark podcast every week an episode of my podcast goes up and uh episode of my podcast goes up and uh episode of my podcast goes up and uh it's basically a Surman every week it's it's basically a Surman every week it's it's basically a Surman every week it's it's taking from the last probably 10 it's taking from the last probably 10 it's taking from the last probably 10 years of my preaching and I don't you years of my preaching and I don't you years of my preaching and I don't you know I don't have the discipline like know I don't have the discipline like know I don't have the discipline like you to like schedule and get in a room you to like schedule and get in a room you to like schedule and get in a room and chat with people you are so good at and chat with people you are so good at and chat with people you are so good at it so my crew was like what if we just it so my crew was like what if we just it so my crew was like what if we just post a sermon every single week of the post a sermon every single week of the post a sermon every single week of the last 10 years of your staff and so we'll last 10 years of your staff and so we'll last 10 years of your staff and so we'll drop like series if I if I preach six drop like series if I if I preach six drop like series if I if I preach six sermons on The Sermon on the Mount sermons on The Sermon on the Mount sermons on The Sermon on the Mount that'll be six weeks and then all Romans that'll be six weeks and then all Romans that'll be six weeks and then all Romans and then you know whatever right so it's and then you know whatever right so it's and then you know whatever right so it's all my preaching from all over the place all my preaching from all over the place all my preaching from all over the place every week an episode drops so Mark every week an episode drops so Mark every week an episode drops so Mark Clark podcast would be a good place Clark podcast would be a good place Clark podcast would be a good place incredible to connect so well we'll link incredible to connect so well we'll link incredible to connect so well we'll link to all that in the notes buddy till next to all that in the notes buddy till next to all that in the notes buddy till next time appreciate you yes thank you sir time appreciate you yes thank you sir time appreciate you yes thank you sir appreciate it you're the best