What Churches Can Learn from AA Meetings

often people will wonder um how come the often people will wonder um how come the church can't be more like church can't be more like church can't be more like AA and you know a hundred pastors have AA and you know a hundred pastors have AA and you know a hundred pastors have preached or talked about that there's a preached or talked about that there's a preached or talked about that there's a whole book that just has the title why whole book that just has the title why whole book that just has the title why can't the church be more like an AA can't the church be more like an AA can't the church be more like an AA meeting and we often ask that question meeting and we often ask that question meeting and we often ask that question rhetorically I actually don't think it's rhetorically I actually don't think it's rhetorically I actually don't think it's a rhetorical question at all it's a a rhetorical question at all it's a a rhetorical question at all it's a really important question and I think really important question and I think really important question and I think there is an answer to it and the answer there is an answer to it and the answer there is an answer to it and the answer is the church can be more like an AA is the church can be more like an AA is the church can be more like an AA meeting if those of us who go to church meeting if those of us who go to church meeting if those of us who go to church are willing to be more like alcoholics are willing to be more like alcoholics are willing to be more like alcoholics welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you joined us hey if you're new here joined us hey if you're new here joined us hey if you're new here subscribe you'll never miss subscribe you'll never miss subscribe you'll never miss conversations like the one we're going conversations like the one we're going conversations like the one we're going to have today with John orberg John and to have today with John orberg John and to have today with John orberg John and I talk about well confession I talk about well confession I talk about well confession vulnerability vulnerability vulnerability insecurity and this is fascinating what insecurity and this is fascinating what insecurity and this is fascinating what the church can learn from alcoholics the church can learn from alcoholics the church can learn from alcoholics from AA what if AA is more like the from AA what if AA is more like the from AA what if AA is more like the church than the church is I mean we get church than the church is I mean we get church than the church is I mean we get into all that kind of stuff last time into all that kind of stuff last time into all that kind of stuff last time John was on we had an amazing John was on we had an amazing John was on we had an amazing conversation you absolutely loved and I conversation you absolutely loved and I conversation you absolutely loved and I don't think this one will disappoint don't think this one will disappoint don't think this one will disappoint either hey if you are new make sure you either hey if you are new make sure you either hey if you are new make sure you subscribe leave a comment let us know subscribe leave a comment let us know subscribe leave a comment let us know how you are enjoying the conversation how you are enjoying the conversation how you are enjoying the conversation and anything you want to add and now a and anything you want to add and now a and anything you want to add and now a word from today's sponsors then we'll word from today's sponsors then we'll word from today's sponsors then we'll dive right into the interview this dive right into the interview this dive right into the interview this episode is brought to you by Barna state episode is brought to you by Barna state episode is brought to you by Barna state of the church so let me ask you do you of the church so let me ask you do you of the church so let me ask you do you ever feel like keeping up with the ever feel like keeping up with the ever feel like keeping up with the trends and challenges facing the church trends and challenges facing the church trends and challenges facing the church is just too much well you're not alone is just too much well you're not alone is just too much well you're not alone and I've got something that can really and I've got something that can really and I've got something that can really help Bar's state of the church research

help Bar's state of the church research help Bar's state of the church research I mean you can get random research in I mean you can get random research in I mean you can get random research in places but here's what that can do for places but here's what that can do for places but here's what that can do for you provide fresh insights on key topics you provide fresh insights on key topics you provide fresh insights on key topics like church attendance digital like church attendance digital like church attendance digital discipleship and generosity it can help discipleship and generosity it can help discipleship and generosity it can help you understand how technology and you understand how technology and you understand how technology and cultural shifts are shaping Faith cultural shifts are shaping Faith cultural shifts are shaping Faith practices and it will equip you to lead practices and it will equip you to lead practices and it will equip you to lead your church toward greater health and your church toward greater health and your church toward greater health and flourishing and it gets better Bar's flourishing and it gets better Bar's flourishing and it gets better Bar's monthly updates powered by Glue deliver monthly updates powered by Glue deliver monthly updates powered by Glue deliver the latest resarch so you can stay ahead the latest resarch so you can stay ahead the latest resarch so you can stay ahead in this everchanging landscape don't in this everchanging landscape don't in this everchanging landscape don't wait to get the tools and resources that wait to get the tools and resources that wait to get the tools and resources that can inspire a hopeful future for your can inspire a hopeful future for your can inspire a hopeful future for your ministry simply visit stateof [Music] [Music] thechurch.at hey I talk with a ton of thechurch.at hey I talk with a ton of thechurch.at hey I talk with a ton of church leaders every year and one word I church leaders every year and one word I church leaders every year and one word I often hear is impact we all want to make often hear is impact we all want to make often hear is impact we all want to make an impact in our lives and Ministries an impact in our lives and Ministries an impact in our lives and Ministries but what does impact actually look like but what does impact actually look like but what does impact actually look like 10% increase in donations 50% more media 10% increase in donations 50% more media 10% increase in donations 50% more media plays three times more app users well plays three times more app users well plays three times more app users well those are just a few ways churches boost those are just a few ways churches boost those are just a few ways churches boost their gospel impact after switching to their gospel impact after switching to their gospel impact after switching to subsplash with mobile apps messaging subsplash with mobile apps messaging subsplash with mobile apps messaging websites streaming groups giving and websites streaming groups giving and websites streaming groups giving and more the subsplash platform puts today's more the subsplash platform puts today's more the subsplash platform puts today's most Innovative Church technology into most Innovative Church technology into most Innovative Church technology into your hands so you can focus on Ministry your hands so you can focus on Ministry your hands so you can focus on Ministry join more than 20,000 churches and join more than 20,000 churches and join more than 20,000 churches and Ministries that partner with subsplash Ministries that partner with subsplash Ministries that partner with subsplash to engage their communities and help to engage their communities and help to engage their communities and help people grow spiritually simply go to people grow spiritually simply go to people grow spiritually simply go to subsplash subsplash subsplash [Music]

[Music] [Music] docomo obligation demo and get $500 off docomo obligation demo and get $500 off docomo obligation demo and get $500 off when you sign up John it's so good to when you sign up John it's so good to when you sign up John it's so good to have you back car it's so good to be have you back car it's so good to be have you back car it's so good to be back thank you for having me on you're back thank you for having me on you're back thank you for having me on you're looking all casual relaxed enjoying looking all casual relaxed enjoying looking all casual relaxed enjoying things in your favorite room in the things in your favorite room in the things in your favorite room in the world in Santa Barbara your new place world in Santa Barbara your new place world in Santa Barbara your new place this is my favorite room I get to have this is my favorite room I get to have this is my favorite room I get to have my books here who are good good friends my books here who are good good friends my books here who are good good friends and um feel very much at home and uh and and um feel very much at home and uh and and um feel very much at home and uh and then get to connect with people like you then get to connect with people like you then get to connect with people like you yeah yeah you know what that's a growing yeah yeah you know what that's a growing yeah yeah you know what that's a growing problem we just had a new library built problem we just had a new library built problem we just had a new library built at our house a couple years ago and at our house a couple years ago and at our house a couple years ago and we're already outgrowing it what do you we're already outgrowing it what do you we're already outgrowing it what do you do with all your books do you call them do with all your books do you call them do with all your books do you call them do you uh do you just keep them do you do you uh do you just keep them do you do you uh do you just keep them do you have a storage Vault somewhere at Fort have a storage Vault somewhere at Fort have a storage Vault somewhere at Fort Knox what what do you do with all your I Knox what what do you do with all your I Knox what what do you do with all your I have a fight with my wife about them on have a fight with my wife about them on have a fight with my wife about them on a regular basis cuz she feels like a regular basis cuz she feels like a regular basis cuz she feels like they're too many she thinks that a they're too many she thinks that a they're too many she thinks that a bookcase should have vases and pictures bookcase should have vases and pictures bookcase should have vases and pictures and little artistic objects on it and uh and little artistic objects on it and uh and little artistic objects on it and uh my argument is it's a bookcase it is a my argument is it's a bookcase it is a my argument is it's a bookcase it is a case for books it is a bookshelf there case for books it is a bookshelf there case for books it is a bookshelf there is no such thing as too many books um so is no such thing as too many books um so is no such thing as too many books um so I have most of my books here I had some I have most of my books here I had some I have most of my books here I had some boxed up that um were being stored in boxed up that um were being stored in boxed up that um were being stored in another place I've given a bunch of them another place I've given a bunch of them another place I've given a bunch of them away I kind of Hit the point right now away I kind of Hit the point right now away I kind of Hit the point right now where um if I get a new book I have to where um if I get a new book I have to where um if I get a new book I have to get rid of an old book so uh one in one get rid of an old book so uh one in one get rid of an old book so uh one in one out I'm on the exchange program right out I'm on the exchange program right out I'm on the exchange program right now and um have them all arranged so now and um have them all arranged so now and um have them all arranged so like biblical resources and commentaries like biblical resources and commentaries like biblical resources and commentaries are right over here and then um

are right over here and then um are right over here and then um religious studies theology then religious studies theology then religious studies theology then spiritual formation church history over spiritual formation church history over spiritual formation church history over there I got one whole section of Lincoln there I got one whole section of Lincoln there I got one whole section of Lincoln books because I love Abraham Lincoln he books because I love Abraham Lincoln he books because I love Abraham Lincoln he was an American president being a was an American president being a was an American president being a Canadian you wouldn't know but um I'm Canadian you wouldn't know but um I'm Canadian you wouldn't know but um I'm always reading the Lincoln book uh so always reading the Lincoln book uh so always reading the Lincoln book uh so anyway stuff kind of scattered around anyway stuff kind of scattered around anyway stuff kind of scattered around where I pretty much know where they are where I pretty much know where they are where I pretty much know where they are and um yeah I I I'm very very grateful and um yeah I I I'm very very grateful and um yeah I I I'm very very grateful I'm I'm very aware of how lucky I am to I'm I'm very aware of how lucky I am to I'm I'm very aware of how lucky I am to have this room no that's it's fantastic have this room no that's it's fantastic have this room no that's it's fantastic it is a growing problem I mean I thought it is a growing problem I mean I thought it is a growing problem I mean I thought oh good like we built like I don't know oh good like we built like I don't know oh good like we built like I don't know how many bookcases upstairs and now how many bookcases upstairs and now how many bookcases upstairs and now we're starting to out grow them and I we're starting to out grow them and I we're starting to out grow them and I export a lot so what you have to do you export a lot so what you have to do you export a lot so what you have to do you have to take Nancy to Rick Warren's have to take Nancy to Rick Warren's have to take Nancy to Rick Warren's library has she been there uh I I don't library has she been there uh I I don't library has she been there uh I I don't know if she has or not have you been know if she has or not have you been know if she has or not have you been there by any chance I I have yes yeah so there by any chance I I have yes yeah so there by any chance I I have yes yeah so you can just say see I'm not doing so you can just say see I'm not doing so you can just say see I'm not doing so bad yeah yeah Rick's got quite the bad yeah yeah Rick's got quite the bad yeah yeah Rick's got quite the library that's on my YouTube channel by library that's on my YouTube channel by library that's on my YouTube channel by the way if people har Harold John aenay the way if people har Harold John aenay the way if people har Harold John aenay who was in some ways kind of the father who was in some ways kind of the father who was in some ways kind of the father of modern of modern of modern evangelicalism uh in the US he always evangelicalism uh in the US he always evangelicalism uh in the US he always insisted that where the pastor worked insisted that where the pastor worked insisted that where the pastor worked should be called the pastor's study not should be called the pastor's study not should be called the pastor's study not the pastor's the pastor's the pastor's office and it's interesting as we think office and it's interesting as we think office and it's interesting as we think about leadership issues it doesn't about leadership issues it doesn't about leadership issues it doesn't necessarily mean that it was right but necessarily mean that it was right but necessarily mean that it was right but Aken was very devoted to uh loving the Aken was very devoted to uh loving the Aken was very devoted to uh loving the life of the mind and believing that life of the mind and believing that life of the mind and believing that Pastor ought to cultivate that carefully Pastor ought to cultivate that carefully Pastor ought to cultivate that carefully and um that they ought to have a place and um that they ought to have a place and um that they ought to have a place to go that is uh a to go that is uh a to go that is uh a study I think that's a wonderful uh

study I think that's a wonderful uh study I think that's a wonderful uh metaphor what am I looking for that's a metaphor what am I looking for that's a metaphor what am I looking for that's a wonderful premise I think we all should wonderful premise I think we all should wonderful premise I think we all should have that place for sure y um last time have that place for sure y um last time have that place for sure y um last time you were on uh we had a lot of response you were on uh we had a lot of response you were on uh we had a lot of response we talked about I said what do you want we talked about I said what do you want we talked about I said what do you want to talk about and you said let's talk to talk about and you said let's talk to talk about and you said let's talk about the apparent false divide between about the apparent false divide between about the apparent false divide between spiritual people people who are into spiritual people people who are into spiritual people people who are into spiritual growth spiritual growth spiritual growth and Leadership that sort of you know and Leadership that sort of you know and Leadership that sort of you know adrenaline fueled CEO type stuff which adrenaline fueled CEO type stuff which adrenaline fueled CEO type stuff which seems to be a bit of a false seems to be a bit of a false seems to be a bit of a false polarization in church leadership over polarization in church leadership over polarization in church leadership over the last 30 years what a great the last 30 years what a great the last 30 years what a great conversation for anybody who missed it conversation for anybody who missed it conversation for anybody who missed it I'm wondering if you you probably heard I'm wondering if you you probably heard I'm wondering if you you probably heard about that I'm sure because I heard a about that I'm sure because I heard a about that I'm sure because I heard a lot about that conversation any further lot about that conversation any further lot about that conversation any further thoughts on that about why that's a thoughts on that about why that's a thoughts on that about why that's a false divide why leaders can be false divide why leaders can be false divide why leaders can be spiritual and spiritual people can't spiritual and spiritual people can't spiritual and spiritual people can't exercise the gift of leadership exercise the gift of leadership exercise the gift of leadership yeah yeah yeah um you know in some ways it mirrors a um you know in some ways it mirrors a um you know in some ways it mirrors a cultural divide that happens in lots of cultural divide that happens in lots of cultural divide that happens in lots of different places it's uh in school different places it's uh in school different places it's uh in school there's the Nerds and the jocks and they there's the Nerds and the jocks and they there's the Nerds and the jocks and they often don't connect a whole lot with often don't connect a whole lot with often don't connect a whole lot with each other and then people grow up and each other and then people grow up and each other and then people grow up and you have uh academic culture on the one you have uh academic culture on the one you have uh academic culture on the one hand and U business culture on the other hand and U business culture on the other hand and U business culture on the other hand and you know in spiritual life one hand and you know in spiritual life one hand and you know in spiritual life one of the old old old uh uh uh binary of the old old old uh uh uh binary of the old old old uh uh uh binary categories is the contemplative life and categories is the contemplative life and categories is the contemplative life and the active the active the active life and so I think it probably life and so I think it probably life and so I think it probably mirrors uh differences in temperament

mirrors uh differences in temperament mirrors uh differences in temperament and differences in kind of a basic and differences in kind of a basic and differences in kind of a basic orientation to life and to spiritual orientation to life and to spiritual orientation to life and to spiritual life that's often present in people and life that's often present in people and life that's often present in people and you know always the challenge for us is you know always the challenge for us is you know always the challenge for us is how do I not divide the world up into us how do I not divide the world up into us how do I not divide the world up into us and them and how do I learn to Value the and them and how do I learn to Value the and them and how do I learn to Value the other and the person who is different other and the person who is different other and the person who is different and I think that leadership and and I think that leadership and and I think that leadership and formation thing probably formation thing probably formation thing probably mirrors um a divide that runs quite mirrors um a divide that runs quite mirrors um a divide that runs quite deeply in human temperament and wiring deeply in human temperament and wiring deeply in human temperament and wiring and um uh reflects the the difficulty we and um uh reflects the the difficulty we and um uh reflects the the difficulty we have in appreciating and learning from have in appreciating and learning from have in appreciating and learning from folks who are different so I it's a folks who are different so I it's a folks who are different so I it's a topic that I think could just be delt topic that I think could just be delt topic that I think could just be delt into more and more and into more and more and into more and more and more you know I I forget exactly what more you know I I forget exactly what more you know I I forget exactly what the Paradigm is I'm I'm recovering from the Paradigm is I'm I'm recovering from the Paradigm is I'm I'm recovering from uh food poisoning so my brain isn't 100% uh food poisoning so my brain isn't 100% uh food poisoning so my brain isn't 100% right I think it was Gary Thomas who right I think it was Gary Thomas who right I think it was Gary Thomas who talked about different modes of worship talked about different modes of worship talked about different modes of worship and there is the longstanding idea that and there is the longstanding idea that and there is the longstanding idea that work can be a form of worship what what work can be a form of worship what what work can be a form of worship what what are your thoughts on that CU When I hear are your thoughts on that CU When I hear are your thoughts on that CU When I hear that I'm like oh yeah I do worship God that I'm like oh yeah I do worship God that I'm like oh yeah I do worship God through my work like what I'm doing through my work like what I'm doing through my work like what I'm doing right now is a form of worship for me right now is a form of worship for me right now is a form of worship for me legit not legit what are your thoughts legit not legit what are your thoughts legit not legit what are your thoughts on that oh um you know I think that uh on that oh um you know I think that uh on that oh um you know I think that uh if if you look at Genesis 126 and just if if you look at Genesis 126 and just if if you look at Genesis 126 and just the creation narrative um we were made the creation narrative um we were made the creation narrative um we were made to exercise Dominion we were made to add to exercise Dominion we were made to add to exercise Dominion we were made to add value we were made to partner together

value we were made to partner together value we were made to partner together with God to uh uh bring out the full with God to uh uh bring out the full with God to uh uh bring out the full level of goodness and creativity and so level of goodness and creativity and so level of goodness and creativity and so yes when you're working carry when yes when you're working carry when yes when you're working carry when you're talking with people when you're you're talking with people when you're you're talking with people when you're exploring ideas when you're helping exploring ideas when you're helping exploring ideas when you're helping pastors be better pastors figure out how pastors be better pastors figure out how pastors be better pastors figure out how do we build and grow healthier churches do we build and grow healthier churches do we build and grow healthier churches um how do we understand things uh how do um how do we understand things uh how do um how do we understand things uh how do you do that better and better how do you you do that better and better how do you you do that better and better how do you leverage technology well we were just leverage technology well we were just leverage technology well we were just talking before getting started here talking before getting started here talking before getting started here about like you know how do you adjust about like you know how do you adjust about like you know how do you adjust lightning lighting and audio and lightning lighting and audio and lightning lighting and audio and everything to be their maximum and uh everything to be their maximum and uh everything to be their maximum and uh for anybody who's listening K's for anybody who's listening K's for anybody who's listening K's understanding of that is exponentially understanding of that is exponentially understanding of that is exponentially deeper than mine um which is not saying deeper than mine um which is not saying deeper than mine um which is not saying much we're no that's thank you that's a much we're no that's thank you that's a much we're no that's thank you that's a good point that's a very low bar um we good point that's a very low bar um we good point that's a very low bar um we were made to do that it's interesting uh were made to do that it's interesting uh were made to do that it's interesting uh in the work of Dallas Willard who's in the work of Dallas Willard who's in the work of Dallas Willard who's impacted me and lots of other folks a impacted me and lots of other folks a impacted me and lots of other folks a lot um over the lot um over the lot um over the years uh uh one of one of his years uh uh one of one of his years uh uh one of one of his early uh sentences to early uh sentences to early uh sentences to describe uh what God's about in human describe uh what God's about in human describe uh what God's about in human history is God's ultimate aim in human history is God's ultimate aim in human history is God's ultimate aim in human history is a loving community of history is a loving community of history is a loving community of all-inclusive persons with himself all-inclusive persons with himself all-inclusive persons with himself included as its uh primary sustainer and included as its uh primary sustainer and included as its uh primary sustainer and most glorious most glorious most glorious inhabitant and over time he didn't use inhabitant and over time he didn't use inhabitant and over time he didn't use that definition so much although it's that definition so much although it's that definition so much although it's wonderful people might want to write it wonderful people might want to write it wonderful people might want to write it down but what it didn't capture was work down but what it didn't capture was work down but what it didn't capture was work and that we were made for work and that

and that we were made for work and that and that we were made for work and that we will do work so if you look at the we will do work so if you look at the we will do work so if you look at the image in the Bible of reigning what does image in the Bible of reigning what does image in the Bible of reigning what does it mean to it mean to it mean to rain well to rain is to work it is to be rain well to rain is to work it is to be rain well to rain is to work it is to be strong and powerful in the service of strong and powerful in the service of strong and powerful in the service of the good and to be creative and so and I the good and to be creative and so and I the good and to be creative and so and I think it's precisely think it's precisely think it's precisely because um it is so powerful in our because um it is so powerful in our because um it is so powerful in our lives and it's so deeply a part of what lives and it's so deeply a part of what lives and it's so deeply a part of what does it mean to be made in the image of does it mean to be made in the image of does it mean to be made in the image of God that it can become such an idol when God that it can become such an idol when God that it can become such an idol when it takes the wrong place in our life so it takes the wrong place in our life so it takes the wrong place in our life so it's just one of those themes that the it's just one of those themes that the it's just one of those themes that the better something is the more powerful better something is the more powerful better something is the more powerful something is the more destructive it can something is the more destructive it can something is the more destructive it can be when it's misused or when it becomes be when it's misused or when it becomes be when it's misused or when it becomes an idol money is that way sex is that an idol money is that way sex is that an idol money is that way sex is that way and so I think work is that way but way and so I think work is that way but way and so I think work is that way but the only uh way to approach that then is the only uh way to approach that then is the only uh way to approach that then is not to discard it but to try to redeem not to discard it but to try to redeem not to discard it but to try to redeem it you know John I've been thinking it you know John I've been thinking it you know John I've been thinking about work and you know thinking about about work and you know thinking about about work and you know thinking about the next couple of decades ahead I'm the next couple of decades ahead I'm the next couple of decades ahead I'm approaching the age where a lot of approaching the age where a lot of approaching the age where a lot of people think about retirement and I people think about retirement and I people think about retirement and I think about retirement the the dominant think about retirement the the dominant think about retirement the the dominant model of our culture hadn't planned on model of our culture hadn't planned on model of our culture hadn't planned on talking about any of this by the way but talking about any of this by the way but talking about any of this by the way but it's always fascinating talking to you it's always fascinating talking to you it's always fascinating talking to you uh is is is consumption right I'm going uh is is is consumption right I'm going uh is is is consumption right I'm going to go get the vacations that I've been to go get the vacations that I've been to go get the vacations that I've been denied I'm going to to go and and live denied I'm going to to go and and live denied I'm going to to go and and live the life where people serve me and as the life where people serve me and as the life where people serve me and as Tony and I have been talking about the Tony and I have been talking about the Tony and I have been talking about the next few decades ahead for us we've been next few decades ahead for us we've been next few decades ahead for us we've been thinking about contribution uh realizing thinking about contribution uh realizing thinking about contribution uh realizing that some of that will be paid some of

that some of that will be paid some of that some of that will be paid some of that won't be paid but the more I think that won't be paid but the more I think that won't be paid but the more I think about contributing for the rest of my about contributing for the rest of my about contributing for the rest of my life creating for the rest of my life uh life creating for the rest of my life uh life creating for the rest of my life uh the more excited I get about the future the more excited I get about the future the more excited I get about the future and you know that's not saying I'm not and you know that's not saying I'm not and you know that's not saying I'm not going to have a month off to sit back going to have a month off to sit back going to have a month off to sit back relax enjoy the flight once in a while relax enjoy the flight once in a while relax enjoy the flight once in a while uh what are your thoughts about you know uh what are your thoughts about you know uh what are your thoughts about you know the the later stages of life as far as the the later stages of life as far as the the later stages of life as far as contribution versus consumption goes contribution versus consumption goes contribution versus consumption goes yeah you know I'm ahead of you on that yeah you know I'm ahead of you on that yeah you know I'm ahead of you on that Journey so I am now 67 years old and um Journey so I am now 67 years old and um Journey so I am now 67 years old and um uh have thought about that issue a lot uh have thought about that issue a lot uh have thought about that issue a lot folks will famously say things like the folks will famously say things like the folks will famously say things like the word retire is not in the Bible and yeah word retire is not in the Bible and yeah word retire is not in the Bible and yeah that's true and I think it's for more that's true and I think it's for more that's true and I think it's for more than just economic reasons and that is than just economic reasons and that is than just economic reasons and that is that we were made to contribute that's that we were made to contribute that's that we were made to contribute that's um there is something about giving um there is something about giving um there is something about giving contributing contributing contributing working um that is Central to human working um that is Central to human working um that is Central to human flourishing and human flourishing and human flourishing and human wellbeing um we're made to serve God wellbeing um we're made to serve God wellbeing um we're made to serve God we're made to help other people and we're made to help other people and we're made to help other people and nobody wants to be nobody wants to be nobody wants to be unnecessary and um so life is about unnecessary and um so life is about unnecessary and um so life is about something more than just um something more than just um something more than just um consuming in my case krie part of what consuming in my case krie part of what consuming in my case krie part of what happened is I ended up leaving my job happened is I ended up leaving my job happened is I ended up leaving my job earlier than I would have anticipated earlier than I would have anticipated earlier than I would have anticipated and it involved um you know painful and it involved um you know painful and it involved um you know painful dynamics that we don't have to go into dynamics that we don't have to go into dynamics that we don't have to go into but there were things that I would not but there were things that I would not but there were things that I would not necessarily have chosen and uh uh one of necessarily have chosen and uh uh one of necessarily have chosen and uh uh one of the thoughts that was really helpful to the thoughts that was really helpful to the thoughts that was really helpful to me in that process as I was going

me in that process as I was going me in that process as I was going through the grief of letting go of one through the grief of letting go of one through the grief of letting go of one form of work earlier than I would have form of work earlier than I would have form of work earlier than I would have was um when I was tempted towards was um when I was tempted towards was um when I was tempted towards self-pity there is no barrier to my self-pity there is no barrier to my self-pity there is no barrier to my joyfully serving God today joyfully serving God today joyfully serving God today [Music] [Music] [Music] and uh on the day that I left my old job and uh on the day that I left my old job and uh on the day that I left my old job this was during covid so I'd had to this was during covid so I'd had to this was during covid so I'd had to record what would be my final sermon and record what would be my final sermon and record what would be my final sermon and I got home and you know it was that I got home and you know it was that I got home and you know it was that mixture of grief and self-pity and mixture of grief and self-pity and mixture of grief and self-pity and whatever else and then that thought came whatever else and then that thought came whatever else and then that thought came literally as I'm getting out of the car literally as I'm getting out of the car literally as I'm getting out of the car going into the condo there is no joyful going into the condo there is no joyful going into the condo there is no joyful there is no barrier to my joyfully there is no barrier to my joyfully there is no barrier to my joyfully serving God serving God serving God today and I thought either that's true today and I thought either that's true today and I thought either that's true or it's not and if it's not true then I or it's not and if it's not true then I or it's not and if it's not true then I had no business preaching in a church had no business preaching in a church had no business preaching in a church anyhow and if it is true then nothing anyhow and if it is true then nothing anyhow and if it is true then nothing really changed at all and it doesn't really changed at all and it doesn't really changed at all and it doesn't really matter too much what the task is really matter too much what the task is really matter too much what the task is it doesn't really matter too much who it doesn't really matter too much who it doesn't really matter too much who signs the check that's attached to it or signs the check that's attached to it or signs the check that's attached to it or whether there is a check attached to it whether there is a check attached to it whether there is a check attached to it or not you know I love Peter's or not you know I love Peter's or not you know I love Peter's description of Jesus when he's talking description of Jesus when he's talking description of Jesus when he's talking to a group of Gentiles in the book of to a group of Gentiles in the book of to a group of Gentiles in the book of Acts so he can't use Old Testament Acts so he can't use Old Testament Acts so he can't use Old Testament language for it because they don't know language for it because they don't know language for it because they don't know it and he says there was a Man From it and he says there was a Man From it and he says there was a Man From Galilee and he went around doing Galilee and he went around doing Galilee and he went around doing good it's just that he went around doing good it's just that he went around doing good it's just that he went around doing good it's like well I can do that that's good it's like well I can do that that's good it's like well I can do that that's what Francis aasi did um that that's what Francis aasi did um that that's what Francis aasi did um that that's what Dorcas did that's what his what Dorcas did that's what his what Dorcas did that's what his followers have always done um when followers have always done um when followers have always done um when they're getting things right in the they're getting things right in the they're getting things right in the kingdom is at work so um then the task kingdom is at work so um then the task kingdom is at work so um then the task doesn't matter too much and I think

doesn't matter too much and I think doesn't matter too much and I think there's some folks I have a real good there's some folks I have a real good there's some folks I have a real good friend Chuck he was a doctor for 40 friend Chuck he was a doctor for 40 friend Chuck he was a doctor for 40 years was great at doing medicine he's years was great at doing medicine he's years was great at doing medicine he's great at carpentry he's great at cooking great at carpentry he's great at cooking great at carpentry he's great at cooking he's great at a bunch of different stuff he's great at a bunch of different stuff he's great at a bunch of different stuff um mechanical type things Tech type um mechanical type things Tech type um mechanical type things Tech type stuff stuff stuff um he's retired from practicing medicine um he's retired from practicing medicine um he's retired from practicing medicine now but he he'll go around doing good now but he he'll go around doing good now but he he'll go around doing good he'll travel to different places he will he'll travel to different places he will he'll travel to different places he will connect with people that are in his connect with people that are in his connect with people that are in his family um there's a woman that he knew family um there's a woman that he knew family um there's a woman that he knew that didn't have insulation and she was that didn't have insulation and she was that didn't have insulation and she was a single mom so he got his a single mom so he got his a single mom so he got his brother-in-law and they spent the day brother-in-law and they spent the day brother-in-law and they spent the day insulating her attic um he insulating her attic um he insulating her attic um he will do what kind of looks right like will do what kind of looks right like will do what kind of looks right like retirement but it's really just a very retirement but it's really just a very retirement but it's really just a very different form of doing good that he's different form of doing good that he's different form of doing good that he's great great great at um for me I'm not good at lots of at um for me I'm not good at lots of at um for me I'm not good at lots of those things I love to learn and I love those things I love to learn and I love those things I love to learn and I love to try to communicate and then it's to try to communicate and then it's to try to communicate and then it's become very meaningful to me deeply become very meaningful to me deeply become very meaningful to me deeply meaningful to have individual meaningful to have individual meaningful to have individual conversations with people who might be conversations with people who might be conversations with people who might be going through a difficulty or through going through a difficulty or through going through a difficulty or through some form of family pain or want to talk some form of family pain or want to talk some form of family pain or want to talk about lgbtq issues or have Ministry pain about lgbtq issues or have Ministry pain about lgbtq issues or have Ministry pain that they're facing and there's that they're facing and there's that they're facing and there's something that feels very Redemptive to something that feels very Redemptive to something that feels very Redemptive to that for me in this season and so um the that for me in this season and so um the that for me in this season and so um the work that I will seek to do probably work that I will seek to do probably work that I will seek to do probably looks more continuous with the work that looks more continuous with the work that looks more continuous with the work that I was doing when I was at churches than I was doing when I was at churches than I was doing when I was at churches than is the case with my friends Chuck but I is the case with my friends Chuck but I is the case with my friends Chuck but I think the real issue is um think the real issue is um think the real issue is um always um God what can I bring to life

always um God what can I bring to life always um God what can I bring to life today and there is no barrier to my today and there is no barrier to my today and there is no barrier to my joyfully serving God today so how can I joyfully serving God today so how can I joyfully serving God today so how can I do that do that do that today got a couple of uncles who go today got a couple of uncles who go today got a couple of uncles who go around doing good like that it's a great around doing good like that it's a great around doing good like that it's a great metaphor um C us up a little bit on what metaphor um C us up a little bit on what metaphor um C us up a little bit on what you've been doing over the last few you've been doing over the last few you've been doing over the last few years years years John yeah so uh I love what I do I think John yeah so uh I love what I do I think John yeah so uh I love what I do I think to the extent that I can understand that to the extent that I can understand that to the extent that I can understand that sense of what in the church World we'll sense of what in the church World we'll sense of what in the church World we'll talk about calling um for me it's real talk about calling um for me it's real talk about calling um for me it's real simple um I need to be learning I love simple um I need to be learning I love simple um I need to be learning I love to read I love to have conversations to read I love to have conversations to read I love to have conversations with people I love to experience stuff with people I love to experience stuff with people I love to experience stuff try to find out what's going on in the try to find out what's going on in the try to find out what's going on in the world um how do I understand the Bible world um how do I understand the Bible world um how do I understand the Bible how do I understand what Jesus taught um how do I understand what Jesus taught um how do I understand what Jesus taught um life of the mind and then how do I life of the mind and then how do I life of the mind and then how do I communicate that to people um so I need communicate that to people um so I need communicate that to people um so I need input and I need an input and I need an input and I need an outlet and if I had input but I didn't outlet and if I had input but I didn't outlet and if I had input but I didn't have an outlet I'd be kind of frustrated have an outlet I'd be kind of frustrated have an outlet I'd be kind of frustrated and there's something about knowing I and there's something about knowing I and there's something about knowing I got to communicate this that makes me got to communicate this that makes me got to communicate this that makes me think about it in a different way how do think about it in a different way how do think about it in a different way how do I really understand it what metaphor I really understand it what metaphor I really understand it what metaphor story could I use on the other hand if I story could I use on the other hand if I story could I use on the other hand if I was doing a lot of production and trying was doing a lot of production and trying was doing a lot of production and trying to communicate but not getting fresh to communicate but not getting fresh to communicate but not getting fresh input I would feel stretched thin and um input I would feel stretched thin and um input I would feel stretched thin and um uh superficial so that balance of uh uh superficial so that balance of uh uh superficial so that balance of uh getting input and then having an outlet getting input and then having an outlet getting input and then having an outlet that's kind of where my sense of calling that's kind of where my sense of calling that's kind of where my sense of calling resides and scale doesn't really matter resides and scale doesn't really matter resides and scale doesn't really matter too too too much and so my primary uh work these

much and so my primary uh work these much and so my primary uh work these days uh days uh days uh involves uh a kind of an online Ministry involves uh a kind of an online Ministry involves uh a kind of an online Ministry it's it's called become new and it's it's it's called become new and it's it's it's called become new and it's from Dallas's statement the main thing from Dallas's statement the main thing from Dallas's statement the main thing God gets out of our life is the person God gets out of our life is the person God gets out of our life is the person that we become and most weeks Monday that we become and most weeks Monday that we become and most weeks Monday through Friday be about 10 or 12 minutes through Friday be about 10 or 12 minutes through Friday be about 10 or 12 minutes of teaching about spiritual life of teaching about spiritual life of teaching about spiritual life spiritual growth how does that take spiritual growth how does that take spiritual growth how does that take place and so I'll spend most of my time place and so I'll spend most of my time place and so I'll spend most of my time trying to learn and then figuring out trying to learn and then figuring out trying to learn and then figuring out how do I communicate that and that's the how do I communicate that and that's the how do I communicate that and that's the main thing I do and then writing and main thing I do and then writing and main thing I do and then writing and other speaking and conversations with other speaking and conversations with other speaking and conversations with people that flow around that it's it's people that flow around that it's it's people that flow around that it's it's ended up creating a kind of a little ended up creating a kind of a little ended up creating a kind of a little Community online that has become a very Community online that has become a very Community online that has become a very very meaningful place we will often call very meaningful place we will often call very meaningful place we will often call ourselves The Fellowship of the withered ourselves The Fellowship of the withered ourselves The Fellowship of the withered hand from that story where Jesus talks hand from that story where Jesus talks hand from that story where Jesus talks to that guy in the synagogue and when to that guy in the synagogue and when to that guy in the synagogue and when he's open and exposes the thing that he he's open and exposes the thing that he he's open and exposes the thing that he would most want to keep hidden power would most want to keep hidden power would most want to keep hidden power flows and healing flows and in Jesus flows and healing flows and in Jesus flows and healing flows and in Jesus Community is kind of that way um so Community is kind of that way um so Community is kind of that way um so that's the main thing I do these days that's the main thing I do these days that's the main thing I do these days and I'm very very grateful for it and and I'm very very grateful for it and and I'm very very grateful for it and then lots of time for being a then lots of time for being a then lots of time for being a grandfather and being a dad and and grandfather and being a dad and and grandfather and being a dad and and friendship in this season friendship in this season friendship in this season H so you mentioned Dallas a few times H so you mentioned Dallas a few times H so you mentioned Dallas a few times already do you continue to read him already do you continue to read him already do you continue to read him daily is that something that you daily is that something that you daily is that something that you continue to do pretty much every continue to do pretty much every continue to do pretty much every day yeah I I'm this morning literally day yeah I I'm this morning literally day yeah I I'm this morning literally after I dropped the kids off I was after I dropped the kids off I was after I dropped the kids off I was listening to um there's now a listening to um there's now a listening to um there's now a podcast uh that features talks that

podcast uh that features talks that podcast uh that features talks that Dallas did over the years so uh I was Dallas did over the years so uh I was Dallas did over the years so uh I was literally this morning listening to a literally this morning listening to a literally this morning listening to a talk he did for inar on developing the talk he did for inar on developing the talk he did for inar on developing the mind of Christ in 2003 and mind of Christ in 2003 and mind of Christ in 2003 and um Dallas for me is helpful enough and um Dallas for me is helpful enough and um Dallas for me is helpful enough and dense enough that I kind of learn him by dense enough that I kind of learn him by dense enough that I kind of learn him by osmosis and um so to go back over and osmosis and um so to go back over and osmosis and um so to go back over and over and over the things that he said over and over the things that he said over and over the things that he said sometimes I'll find it talk that I sometimes I'll find it talk that I sometimes I'll find it talk that I hadn't heard and um there will be really hadn't heard and um there will be really hadn't heard and um there will be really helpful Thoughts with that um but helpful Thoughts with that um but helpful Thoughts with that um but there's just uh an ever increasing sense there's just uh an ever increasing sense there's just uh an ever increasing sense of clarity and understanding of God of of clarity and understanding of God of of clarity and understanding of God of human nature of human nature of human nature of life um there's a wonderful book we life um there's a wonderful book we life um there's a wonderful book we probably talked about Carri but we might probably talked about Carri but we might probably talked about Carri but we might not have called the intellectual life I not have called the intellectual life I not have called the intellectual life I don't remember that one no we might not don't remember that one no we might not don't remember that one no we might not have it was written about a hundred have it was written about a hundred have it was written about a hundred years ago by a priest saon I think is years ago by a priest saon I think is years ago by a priest saon I think is how you pronounce his name he's French how you pronounce his name he's French how you pronounce his name he's French and I don't know French you should know and I don't know French you should know and I don't know French you should know you're a Canadian yeah exactly uh but you're a Canadian yeah exactly uh but you're a Canadian yeah exactly uh but but it's a book for people uh might be but it's a book for people uh might be but it's a book for people uh might be for pastors anybody that feels like for pastors anybody that feels like for pastors anybody that feels like might not be your main paid job but if might not be your main paid job but if might not be your main paid job but if learning and stewarding what you're learning and stewarding what you're learning and stewarding what you're learning is a significant part of your learning is a significant part of your learning is a significant part of your life how do you arrange your life life how do you arrange your life life how do you arrange your life together with God so you Steward that together with God so you Steward that together with God so you Steward that really really really well and uh I probably read that book well and uh I probably read that book well and uh I probably read that book three or four times now part of what he three or four times now part of what he three or four times now part of what he talks about he talks about four talks about he talks about four talks about he talks about four different kinds of reading but the

different kinds of reading but the different kinds of reading but the fundamental one is what he calls reading fundamental one is what he calls reading fundamental one is what he calls reading for for for formation and he says when it comes to formation and he says when it comes to formation and he says when it comes to reading for reading for reading for formation um formation um formation um uh you don't want to be reading many uh you don't want to be reading many uh you don't want to be reading many people you only have want to have a very people you only have want to have a very people you only have want to have a very small number of intellectual fathers or small number of intellectual fathers or small number of intellectual fathers or mothers where you go so deeply into mothers where you go so deeply into mothers where you go so deeply into their thought um that uh it really is their thought um that uh it really is their thought um that uh it really is getting absorbed into your mind and your getting absorbed into your mind and your getting absorbed into your mind and your heart and your eyes and how you think heart and your eyes and how you think heart and your eyes and how you think and um obviously the scripture is the and um obviously the scripture is the and um obviously the scripture is the primary source of formational reading primary source of formational reading primary source of formational reading for us so that thought was a really for us so that thought was a really for us so that thought was a really helpful thought and Dallas is that very helpful thought and Dallas is that very helpful thought and Dallas is that very much for me so yep I'm always rereading much for me so yep I'm always rereading much for me so yep I'm always rereading and relising to him so this might be an and relising to him so this might be an and relising to him so this might be an impossible question John but uh and it's impossible question John but uh and it's impossible question John but uh and it's always dangerous to speak for other always dangerous to speak for other always dangerous to speak for other people but if Dallas were alive today people but if Dallas were alive today people but if Dallas were alive today looking at where we are right now what looking at where we are right now what looking at where we are right now what do you think he would be focused on or do you think he would be focused on or do you think he would be focused on or concerned about in the Church of the concerned about in the Church of the concerned about in the Church of the world world world today CU he died in one what 2013 is he today CU he died in one what 2013 is he today CU he died in one what 2013 is he died May 8th 2013 yeah oh wow died May 8th 2013 yeah oh wow died May 8th 2013 yeah oh wow wow uh I think that would be a pretty wow uh I think that would be a pretty wow uh I think that would be a pretty constant one Carrie I constant one Carrie I constant one Carrie I think uh Dallas's think uh Dallas's think uh Dallas's primary um concern interest always was

primary um concern interest always was primary um concern interest always was um the reality of the kingdom of um the reality of the kingdom of um the reality of the kingdom of God and that the offer to live in that God and that the offer to live in that God and that the offer to live in that Kingdom together with our friend Jesus Kingdom together with our friend Jesus Kingdom together with our friend Jesus from one day to the next is the greatest from one day to the next is the greatest from one day to the next is the greatest offer that's ever been extended to the offer that's ever been extended to the offer that's ever been extended to the human human human race and trying to find ways to clarify race and trying to find ways to clarify race and trying to find ways to clarify that offer and then teach people how to that offer and then teach people how to that offer and then teach people how to learn how to live in that Kingdom learn how to live in that Kingdom learn how to live in that Kingdom together with Jesus from one moment to together with Jesus from one moment to together with Jesus from one moment to the next um that's the next um that's the next um that's always uh the greatest task that human always uh the greatest task that human always uh the greatest task that human beings can pursue and um so there's all beings can pursue and um so there's all beings can pursue and um so there's all always the challenge of trying to always the challenge of trying to always the challenge of trying to clarify that we always clarify that we always clarify that we always lose um that Vision in one way or lose um that Vision in one way or lose um that Vision in one way or another so that requires a constant uh another so that requires a constant uh another so that requires a constant uh attempt to read what's the church saying attempt to read what's the church saying attempt to read what's the church saying right now where are we missing it how do right now where are we missing it how do right now where are we missing it how do we say it in a different a clearer way we say it in a different a clearer way we say it in a different a clearer way um but I think that uh that calling um but I think that uh that calling um but I think that uh that calling would continue to be at the center of would continue to be at the center of would continue to be at the center of what Dallas would be doing isn't that what Dallas would be doing isn't that what Dallas would be doing isn't that the way it always is though like CS the way it always is though like CS the way it always is though like CS Lewis wasn't known for his thoughts Lewis wasn't known for his thoughts Lewis wasn't known for his thoughts about the second world war although he about the second world war although he about the second world war although he did speak into it you know Tim Keller did speak into it you know Tim Keller did speak into it you know Tim Keller kind of has a timelessness Dallas has a kind of has a timelessness Dallas has a kind of has a timelessness Dallas has a timelessness it's a good reminder to a timelessness it's a good reminder to a timelessness it's a good reminder to a lot of us who tend to caught get caught lot of us who tend to caught get caught lot of us who tend to caught get caught up issue to issue election to election up issue to issue election to election up issue to issue election to election culture War to culture war that there's culture War to culture war that there's culture War to culture war that there's a bigger battle being fought and uh I a bigger battle being fought and uh I a bigger battle being fought and uh I really think you're probably right

really think you're probably right really think you're probably right that's what Dallas would be talking that's what Dallas would be talking that's what Dallas would be talking about sort of a life message that's a about sort of a life message that's a about sort of a life message that's a good reminder you know it's really good reminder you know it's really good reminder you know it's really striking um uh uh in those um uh Advent striking um uh uh in those um uh Advent striking um uh uh in those um uh Advent passages the the the uh story about the passages the the the uh story about the passages the the the uh story about the Incarnation with Jesus there's just that Incarnation with Jesus there's just that Incarnation with Jesus there's just that contrast in the days of Caesar contrast in the days of Caesar contrast in the days of Caesar Augustus uh so they'll have the mention Augustus uh so they'll have the mention Augustus uh so they'll have the mention of Caesar Caesar will make a decree of Caesar Caesar will make a decree of Caesar Caesar will make a decree because that's what Caesar's did and because that's what Caesar's did and because that's what Caesar's did and everybody thinks oh that's power you everybody thinks oh that's power you everybody thinks oh that's power you know but then incidentally oh by the way know but then incidentally oh by the way know but then incidentally oh by the way that has the effect of having this that has the effect of having this that has the effect of having this obscure man Joseph go to this obscure obscure man Joseph go to this obscure obscure man Joseph go to this obscure Village Bethlehem which in this obscure Village Bethlehem which in this obscure Village Bethlehem which in this obscure Book of Micah is prophesied to be the Book of Micah is prophesied to be the Book of Micah is prophesied to be the place where the Messiah will come and place where the Messiah will come and place where the Messiah will come and what's really going to change the world what's really going to change the world what's really going to change the world is these little events with people is these little events with people is these little events with people nobody's ever heard of doesn't really nobody's ever heard of doesn't really nobody's ever heard of doesn't really matter who Caesar is Caesar thinks he's matter who Caesar is Caesar thinks he's matter who Caesar is Caesar thinks he's running the show but he's not and you running the show but he's not and you running the show but he's not and you know in that when Luke wrote those words know in that when Luke wrote those words know in that when Luke wrote those words everybody knew Caesar hardly anybody everybody knew Caesar hardly anybody everybody knew Caesar hardly anybody knew Jesus but 2,000 years later what knew Jesus but 2,000 years later what knew Jesus but 2,000 years later what are the odds Luke was exactly right are the odds Luke was exactly right are the odds Luke was exactly right nobody's following Caesar anymore nobody's following Caesar anymore nobody's following Caesar anymore um so yes I think that God is always at um so yes I think that God is always at um so yes I think that God is always at work in the work in the work in the margins and uh margins and uh margins and uh ultimately countries come and go ultimately countries come and go ultimately countries come and go presidents come and go Caesars come and presidents come and go Caesars come and presidents come and go Caesars come and go what God is doing is what remains and go what God is doing is what remains and go what God is doing is what remains and endures but it's always hard for us to endures but it's always hard for us to endures but it's always hard for us to keep our eyes on that John now that keep our eyes on that John now that keep our eyes on that John now that you're not leading a church dayto day

you're not leading a church dayto day you're not leading a church dayto day has your perspective on the church has your perspective on the church has your perspective on the church shifted at all or how has your shifted at all or how has your shifted at all or how has your perspective on the church perspective on the church perspective on the church shifted you know the deepest way that it shifted you know the deepest way that it shifted you know the deepest way that it has Carrie is um real personal um what I has Carrie is um real personal um what I has Carrie is um real personal um what I have found is I'll be reading have found is I'll be reading have found is I'll be reading interestingly especially through Paul interestingly especially through Paul interestingly especially through Paul and Paul's writings and sometimes people and Paul's writings and sometimes people and Paul's writings and sometimes people think of Paul as kind of an think of Paul as kind of an think of Paul as kind of an argumentative or a cranky guy yeah but argumentative or a cranky guy yeah but argumentative or a cranky guy yeah but but when I'll read through that what but when I'll read through that what but when I'll read through that what I'll notice is his expressions of love I'll notice is his expressions of love I'll notice is his expressions of love and how he'll talk about can anybody be and how he'll talk about can anybody be and how he'll talk about can anybody be anxious and me not be filled with an anxious and me not be filled with an anxious and me not be filled with an or uh can anybody not be weak and me not or uh can anybody not be weak and me not or uh can anybody not be weak and me not feel weak or um he's going to leave uh feel weak or um he's going to leave uh feel weak or um he's going to leave uh the church at Ephesus and the leaders the church at Ephesus and the leaders the church at Ephesus and the leaders there are just weeping not wanting him there are just weeping not wanting him there are just weeping not wanting him to to to leave and uh uh he talks so often about leave and uh uh he talks so often about leave and uh uh he talks so often about his love for people and it makes me his love for people and it makes me his love for people and it makes me think um when I was in the church to think um when I was in the church to think um when I was in the church to what extent that I really love the what extent that I really love the what extent that I really love the people who are in the church and to what people who are in the church and to what people who are in the church and to what extent that I kind of use the church to extent that I kind of use the church to extent that I kind of use the church to try to be try to be try to be successful and successful and successful and um uh I I was just recently unpacking a um uh I I was just recently unpacking a um uh I I was just recently unpacking a box of stuff here looking at uh box of stuff here looking at uh box of stuff here looking at uh evaluation forms of a church where I evaluation forms of a church where I evaluation forms of a church where I used to serve and um just burdened by used to serve and um just burdened by used to serve and um just burdened by looking at the gap between the person looking at the gap between the person looking at the gap between the person that I want to think I am and uh I want

that I want to think I am and uh I want that I want to think I am and uh I want to think that I'm a person who's joyful to think that I'm a person who's joyful to think that I'm a person who's joyful and humble and patient and humble and patient and humble and patient and and the feedback from people who and and the feedback from people who and and the feedback from people who work with me know me often is know I'm work with me know me often is know I'm work with me know me often is know I'm quite different than that person and uh quite different than that person and uh quite different than that person and uh so looking back now and just so looking back now and just so looking back now and just experiencing the pain of oh I wish that experiencing the pain of oh I wish that experiencing the pain of oh I wish that I had been I wish I was now more that I had been I wish I was now more that I had been I wish I was now more that person um you know I I'd say the my person um you know I I'd say the my person um you know I I'd say the my biggest biggest biggest um thoughts and uh perceptions around um thoughts and uh perceptions around um thoughts and uh perceptions around that question are mostly just around me that question are mostly just around me that question are mostly just around me and what did I bring to it and then what and what did I bring to it and then what and what did I bring to it and then what do I bring to life how do I how do I try do I bring to life how do I how do I try do I bring to life how do I how do I try to learn from that um so that I'm still to learn from that um so that I'm still to learn from that um so that I'm still alive I'm still here today how can I try alive I'm still here today how can I try alive I'm still here today how can I try to be that way how can I try to be that to be that way how can I try to be that to be that way how can I try to be that person with you and I work with Tim and person with you and I work with Tim and person with you and I work with Tim and I work with Jackson and I had to I work with Jackson and I had to I work with Jackson and I had to apologize to them literally today before apologize to them literally today before apologize to them literally today before this call because they're working really this call because they're working really this call because they're working really hard to try to set up everything to look hard to try to set up everything to look hard to try to set up everything to look right and sound right and getting right and sound right and getting right and sound right and getting impatient and short and snippy and um impatient and short and snippy and um impatient and short and snippy and um you know not overtly awful with it but you know not overtly awful with it but you know not overtly awful with it but just in all those kind of Scandinavian just in all those kind of Scandinavian just in all those kind of Scandinavian ways that I can do and it's like you ways that I can do and it's like you ways that I can do and it's like you know no guys I'm sorry so um yeah mostly know no guys I'm sorry so um yeah mostly know no guys I'm sorry so um yeah mostly the the primary responses that I have the the primary responses that I have the the primary responses that I have Carrie are um much less what's off with Carrie are um much less what's off with Carrie are um much less what's off with the church and much more around what's the church and much more around what's the church and much more around what's off with me and in what time remains God

off with me and in what time remains God off with me and in what time remains God how can you help me with that wow you how can you help me with that wow you how can you help me with that wow you know I I can totally resonate with that know I I can totally resonate with that know I I can totally resonate with that I had to apologize to a team member I had to apologize to a team member I had to apologize to a team member yesterday for you know it was a bad set yesterday for you know it was a bad set yesterday for you know it was a bad set of circumstances but you know that that of circumstances but you know that that of circumstances but you know that that it was just you know getting food it was just you know getting food it was just you know getting food poisoning late flight out in New York poisoning late flight out in New York poisoning late flight out in New York City uh really struggling to get home City uh really struggling to get home City uh really struggling to get home struggling with the workload the whole struggling with the workload the whole struggling with the workload the whole deal and I just came across really rough deal and I just came across really rough deal and I just came across really rough and Brash and had to own that and and Brash and had to own that and and Brash and had to own that and apologize to to a really wonderful team apologize to to a really wonderful team apologize to to a really wonderful team member and I mean it's happening less member and I mean it's happening less member and I mean it's happening less today than it did but and I have today than it did but and I have today than it did but and I have examples John within the last 24 hours examples John within the last 24 hours examples John within the last 24 hours 48 hours okay so it's like oh for the 48 hours okay so it's like oh for the 48 hours okay so it's like oh for the young leaders listening because I can young leaders listening because I can young leaders listening because I can totally empathize with that I was saying totally empathize with that I was saying totally empathize with that I was saying to the staff member today I'm like hey to the staff member today I'm like hey to the staff member today I'm like hey there's old carry and new carry and my there's old carry and new carry and my there's old carry and new carry and my friends would say you know old carry was friends would say you know old carry was friends would say you know old carry was more like that new Carrie post burnout more like that new Carrie post burnout more like that new Carrie post burnout is a little gentler in most days I'm a is a little gentler in most days I'm a is a little gentler in most days I'm a little little little gentler do you have any advice for young gentler do you have any advice for young gentler do you have any advice for young leaders on how to catch that early so leaders on how to catch that early so leaders on how to catch that early so that we're not sitting around at 60 or that we're not sitting around at 60 or that we're not sitting around at 60 or 70 going 70 going 70 going you know younger me you know younger me you know younger me was but now that I'm you know 97 years was but now that I'm you know 97 years was but now that I'm you know 97 years old everything's all worked out how how old everything's all worked out how how old everything's all worked out how how do you catch that earlier well do you catch that earlier well do you catch that earlier well um you know the the best wisdom that I um you know the the best wisdom that I um you know the the best wisdom that I know uh this kind of material uh know uh this kind of material uh know uh this kind of material uh actually comes from uh spiritual wisdom actually comes from uh spiritual wisdom actually comes from uh spiritual wisdom wisdom from Jesus and the scriptures

wisdom from Jesus and the scriptures wisdom from Jesus and the scriptures that got kind of recaptured in our day that got kind of recaptured in our day that got kind of recaptured in our day by this group called Alcoholics by this group called Alcoholics by this group called Alcoholics Anonymous in this framework called the Anonymous in this framework called the Anonymous in this framework called the 12 steps and um one of them involves we 12 steps and um one of them involves we 12 steps and um one of them involves we may talk more about this but it involves may talk more about this but it involves may talk more about this but it involves taking a fearless and searching moral taking a fearless and searching moral taking a fearless and searching moral inventory and uh so getting to the place inventory and uh so getting to the place inventory and uh so getting to the place where uh I'm actually where uh I'm actually where uh I'm actually motivated uh willing to do that and then motivated uh willing to do that and then motivated uh willing to do that and then can gain the tools to find out how do I can gain the tools to find out how do I can gain the tools to find out how do I actually do that so that my awareness actually do that so that my awareness actually do that so that my awareness can grow can grow can grow deeper and deeper and deeper uh as deep deeper and deeper and deeper uh as deep deeper and deeper and deeper uh as deep as I'm able to I'll think sometimes as I'm able to I'll think sometimes as I'm able to I'll think sometimes about when Jesus was talking to his about when Jesus was talking to his about when Jesus was talking to his disciples right before he died and he disciples right before he died and he disciples right before he died and he says to them there is more that I have says to them there is more that I have says to them there is more that I have to say to you but you could not bear it to say to you but you could not bear it to say to you but you could not bear it yet wow and that thought of with Jesus yet wow and that thought of with Jesus yet wow and that thought of with Jesus always as the great teacher he's always as the great teacher he's always as the great teacher he's monitoring what am I capable of monitoring what am I capable of monitoring what am I capable of absorbing right now and if I'm not absorbing right now and if I'm not absorbing right now and if I'm not capable of ab absorbing uh uh he's not capable of ab absorbing uh uh he's not capable of ab absorbing uh uh he's not going to try to inflict it on me because going to try to inflict it on me because going to try to inflict it on me because it wouldn't do any good and so uh uh it wouldn't do any good and so uh uh it wouldn't do any good and so uh uh learning how do I actually do a fearless learning how do I actually do a fearless learning how do I actually do a fearless and searching moral inventory and then I and searching moral inventory and then I and searching moral inventory and then I share that with God myself and another share that with God myself and another share that with God myself and another person and and then the next couple of person and and then the next couple of person and and then the next couple of steps in there are becoming entirely steps in there are becoming entirely steps in there are becoming entirely ready to have God remove my shortcomings

ready to have God remove my shortcomings ready to have God remove my shortcomings and then humbly asking God to do that so and then humbly asking God to do that so and then humbly asking God to do that so um there is a journey there and it's um there is a journey there and it's um there is a journey there and it's kind of funny just over these last kind of funny just over these last kind of funny just over these last couple days talking about this you know couple days talking about this you know couple days talking about this you know it's been painful for me to look at it's been painful for me to look at it's been painful for me to look at those aspects of myself and I can feel those aspects of myself and I can feel those aspects of myself and I can feel stuck stuck stuck between um self-pity or denial I don't between um self-pity or denial I don't between um self-pity or denial I don't want to have to look at it or or feeling want to have to look at it or or feeling want to have to look at it or or feeling so overwhelmed that I just feel like I so overwhelmed that I just feel like I so overwhelmed that I just feel like I need to give up and to say no I need to need to give up and to say no I need to need to give up and to say no I need to be part of community where that's what be part of community where that's what be part of community where that's what we do we just expect that we've all got we do we just expect that we've all got we do we just expect that we've all got shortcomings everybody does nobody's shortcomings everybody does nobody's shortcomings everybody does nobody's arrived yet I don't need to and it will arrived yet I don't need to and it will arrived yet I don't need to and it will not be helpful for me to compare myself not be helpful for me to compare myself not be helpful for me to compare myself to Dallas or or the person I think I to Dallas or or the person I think I to Dallas or or the person I think I ought to be or where I think I ought to ought to be or where I think I ought to ought to be or where I think I ought to be right now the only place I can meet be right now the only place I can meet be right now the only place I can meet God is in reality right here right now God is in reality right here right now God is in reality right here right now me with all of my flaws so I have to get me with all of my flaws so I have to get me with all of my flaws so I have to get the grace and the courage to lean in and the grace and the courage to lean in and the grace and the courage to lean in and be open and be humble but not in Despair be open and be humble but not in Despair be open and be humble but not in Despair and say yep here's my shortcomings right and say yep here's my shortcomings right and say yep here's my shortcomings right now God I can't do this would you help now God I can't do this would you help now God I can't do this would you help me remove it so um learning how to do me remove it so um learning how to do me remove it so um learning how to do that journey and for anybody whatever that journey and for anybody whatever that journey and for anybody whatever age we are in the process um that wisdom age we are in the process um that wisdom age we are in the process um that wisdom and those resources are available to us and those resources are available to us and those resources are available to us you're unearthing something that doesn't you're unearthing something that doesn't you're unearthing something that doesn't seem to be going away that I forget seem to be going away that I forget seem to be going away that I forget about sometimes there is implicit in me about sometimes there is implicit in me about sometimes there is implicit in me this idea that if you just try hard this idea that if you just try hard this idea that if you just try hard enough work hard enough eventually you enough work hard enough eventually you enough work hard enough eventually you get rid of all these defects right and

get rid of all these defects right and get rid of all these defects right and that's not true is it it's not true that's not true is it it's not true that's not true is it it's not true hopefully you're not working on exactly hopefully you're not working on exactly hopefully you're not working on exactly the same stuff you were a decade ago but the same stuff you were a decade ago but the same stuff you were a decade ago but like it's almost this perfectionism like it's almost this perfectionism like it's almost this perfectionism which I know has been a tenant of which I know has been a tenant of which I know has been a tenant of Christianity um but I guess that's not Christianity um but I guess that's not Christianity um but I guess that's not the case I hope it's not the case no the case I hope it's not the case no the case I hope it's not the case no there's another wonderful saying you there's another wonderful saying you there's another wonderful saying you know AA they've got a thousand know AA they've got a thousand know AA they've got a thousand Expressions that are just real sticky Expressions that are just real sticky Expressions that are just real sticky but one of them is if you have one but one of them is if you have one but one of them is if you have one person that's been sober for 30 years person that's been sober for 30 years person that's been sober for 30 years and another person who's been sober for and another person who's been sober for and another person who's been sober for days who's got the most sobriety and the days who's got the most sobriety and the days who's got the most sobriety and the answer is whoever woke up earliest this answer is whoever woke up earliest this answer is whoever woke up earliest this morning wow so it is simply literally a morning wow so it is simply literally a morning wow so it is simply literally a day at a day at a day at a time and um often the feeling of I've time and um often the feeling of I've time and um often the feeling of I've been a Christian 30 years so I should be been a Christian 30 years so I should be been a Christian 30 years so I should be here gets in the way of the humility here gets in the way of the humility here gets in the way of the humility that's needed to that's needed to that's needed to acknowledge I just have this day and acknowledge I just have this day and acknowledge I just have this day and there's a wonderful book about all this there's a wonderful book about all this there's a wonderful book about all this stuff written by uh Christian stuff written by uh Christian stuff written by uh Christian philosopher Kent dunnington for anybody philosopher Kent dunnington for anybody philosopher Kent dunnington for anybody who's interested in these kind of topics who's interested in these kind of topics who's interested in these kind of topics it's called addiction and it's called addiction and it's called addiction and virtue and he writes about part of the virtue and he writes about part of the virtue and he writes about part of the power in uh the community of recovery AA power in uh the community of recovery AA power in uh the community of recovery AA and so on and so on and so on is that is that is that uh uh they understand the recognition uh uh they understand the recognition uh uh they understand the recognition and confession of personal inadequacy

and confession of personal inadequacy and confession of personal inadequacy is an achievement that needs to be is an achievement that needs to be is an achievement that needs to be ritualized and celebrated and it's not that inadequacy celebrated and it's not that inadequacy is an achievement but the is an achievement but the is an achievement but the recognition of recognition of recognition of inadequacy and uh a personal inadequacy inadequacy and uh a personal inadequacy inadequacy and uh a personal inadequacy is a spiritual achievement and it needs is a spiritual achievement and it needs is a spiritual achievement and it needs to be ritualized hi my name is John I'm to be ritualized hi my name is John I'm to be ritualized hi my name is John I'm an alcoholic I'm a sinner ritualized and an alcoholic I'm a sinner ritualized and an alcoholic I'm a sinner ritualized and celebrated welcome John and I think a celebrated welcome John and I think a celebrated welcome John and I think a huge problem in the church is that uh we huge problem in the church is that uh we huge problem in the church is that uh we can be pretty good at doing that when can be pretty good at doing that when can be pretty good at doing that when somebody first becomes a Christian but somebody first becomes a Christian but somebody first becomes a Christian but often we lose it over time and we often we lose it over time and we often we lose it over time and we confuse what we aspire to with our confuse what we aspire to with our confuse what we aspire to with our actual actual actual lives and uh then we forget it's always lives and uh then we forget it's always lives and uh then we forget it's always true every single day the recognition of true every single day the recognition of true every single day the recognition of personal inadequacy is a spiritual personal inadequacy is a spiritual personal inadequacy is a spiritual achievement and we never stop needing achievement and we never stop needing achievement and we never stop needing that so how did you get interested in AA that so how did you get interested in AA that so how did you get interested in AA how did that journey start with you how did that journey start with you how did that journey start with you usually it starts by someone going hey usually it starts by someone going hey usually it starts by someone going hey I'm Carrie I'm an alcoholic how did it I'm Carrie I'm an alcoholic how did it I'm Carrie I'm an alcoholic how did it start with you yeah you know I've always start with you yeah you know I've always start with you yeah you know I've always been interested in um life change and been interested in um life change and been interested in um life change and transformation and God and um how do transformation and God and um how do transformation and God and um how do those things fit together so that was my those things fit together so that was my those things fit together so that was my educational background so I I learned educational background so I I learned educational background so I I learned about about about AA um back when I was in school and AA um back when I was in school and AA um back when I was in school and first attended meetings in those days first attended meetings in those days first attended meetings in those days and it was just very striking to sit in

and it was just very striking to sit in and it was just very striking to sit in a circle and have a group of people who a circle and have a group of people who a circle and have a group of people who are so different from each other you are so different from each other you are so different from each other you know people that were very high know people that were very high know people that were very high functioning very educated very functioning very educated very functioning very educated very successful in their career and people successful in their career and people successful in their career and people that were uh not very educated at all or that were uh not very educated at all or that were uh not very educated at all or didn't have a home or didn't have a job didn't have a home or didn't have a job didn't have a home or didn't have a job and there was this real deep sense of and there was this real deep sense of and there was this real deep sense of community and a deep sense of honesty community and a deep sense of honesty community and a deep sense of honesty and uh a very powerful sense of and uh a very powerful sense of and uh a very powerful sense of community and I thought man that's community and I thought man that's community and I thought man that's really attractive I really like that so really attractive I really like that so really attractive I really like that so um very early on um very early on um very early on I was struck by that and then uh later I was struck by that and then uh later I was struck by that and then uh later on when I began to read Dallas ward in on when I began to read Dallas ward in on when I began to read Dallas ward in particular and then after Dallas other particular and then after Dallas other particular and then after Dallas other folks who had written with a lot of folks who had written with a lot of folks who had written with a lot of wisdom around spiritual transformation wisdom around spiritual transformation wisdom around spiritual transformation and how does it take and how does it take and how does it take place um what's the role of things like place um what's the role of things like place um what's the role of things like spiritual practices or spiritual spiritual practices or spiritual spiritual practices or spiritual disciplines uh the dots would kind of disciplines uh the dots would kind of disciplines uh the dots would kind of connect back to oh yeah that's that's connect back to oh yeah that's that's connect back to oh yeah that's that's kind of that community and Dallas kind of that community and Dallas kind of that community and Dallas actually wrote in a couple of books uh actually wrote in a couple of books uh actually wrote in a couple of books uh in the Divine conspiracy and another in the Divine conspiracy and another in the Divine conspiracy and another book um renovation of the heart about book um renovation of the heart about book um renovation of the heart about how if the church ever gets how if the church ever gets how if the church ever gets transformation and discipleship right it transformation and discipleship right it transformation and discipleship right it will look a lot like will look a lot like will look a lot like AA and actually listed the 12 Steps uh AA and actually listed the 12 Steps uh AA and actually listed the 12 Steps uh in those books and used them as an in those books and used them as an in those books and used them as an illustration of uh what discipleship illustration of uh what discipleship illustration of uh what discipleship could be like and then many years ago I could be like and then many years ago I could be like and then many years ago I read a book that's kind of the basic

read a book that's kind of the basic read a book that's kind of the basic history of AA and is called not history of AA and is called not history of AA and is called not God um uh because a basic premise in uh God um uh because a basic premise in uh God um uh because a basic premise in uh AA is our problem is we are not God this AA is our problem is we are not God this AA is our problem is we are not God this is this is spiritual life 101 there is a is this is spiritual life 101 there is a is this is spiritual life 101 there is a God it is not God it is not God it is not you and uh it's very clear uh that book you and uh it's very clear uh that book you and uh it's very clear uh that book is written by a uh Harvard trained is written by a uh Harvard trained is written by a uh Harvard trained scholar and he writes about essentially scholar and he writes about essentially scholar and he writes about essentially how really AA got the 12 Steps From A how really AA got the 12 Steps From A how really AA got the 12 Steps From A Ministry that was called the Oxford Ministry that was called the Oxford Ministry that was called the Oxford Group it was started by a Lutheran Group it was started by a Lutheran Group it was started by a Lutheran Pastor named Frank Buckman in uh around Pastor named Frank Buckman in uh around Pastor named Frank Buckman in uh around the turn of the 20th century and it was the turn of the 20th century and it was the turn of the 20th century and it was an attempt to recapture discipleship in an attempt to recapture discipleship in an attempt to recapture discipleship in the Contemporary era so really all of the Contemporary era so really all of the Contemporary era so really all of those steps one way of thinking about those steps one way of thinking about those steps one way of thinking about that is AA got the 12 Steps from the that is AA got the 12 Steps from the that is AA got the 12 Steps from the church and now the church needs them church and now the church needs them church and now the church needs them back back back so I think you could say there's a lot so I think you could say there's a lot so I think you could say there's a lot of people in the culture who are of people in the culture who are of people in the culture who are attracted to the principles of AA but if attracted to the principles of AA but if attracted to the principles of AA but if you know even 101 about AA a lot of the you know even 101 about AA a lot of the you know even 101 about AA a lot of the things that AA is very big on WE resist things that AA is very big on WE resist things that AA is very big on WE resist in the church yeah why why do you think in the church yeah why why do you think in the church yeah why why do you think there's so much resistance to things there's so much resistance to things there's so much resistance to things that arguably were the churches in the that arguably were the churches in the that arguably were the churches in the first first first place well um it's a huge problem that place well um it's a huge problem that place well um it's a huge problem that can't be manufactured so this question can't be manufactured so this question can't be manufactured so this question is of enormous importance for all of us

is of enormous importance for all of us is of enormous importance for all of us individually and then for anybody who's individually and then for anybody who's individually and then for anybody who's leading a leading a leading a church um church um church um AA is a classic example to me of Paul's AA is a classic example to me of Paul's AA is a classic example to me of Paul's statement where God says my strength is statement where God says my strength is statement where God says my strength is made perfect than made perfect than made perfect than weakness so obviously the great weakness weakness so obviously the great weakness weakness so obviously the great weakness is addiction and people recognizing I is addiction and people recognizing I is addiction and people recognizing I have become enslaved by a a power that have become enslaved by a a power that have become enslaved by a a power that is essentially demonic that's is essentially demonic that's is essentially demonic that's essentially spiritual in nature and it's essentially spiritual in nature and it's essentially spiritual in nature and it's going to destroy me me and that's just going to destroy me me and that's just going to destroy me me and that's just hell uh in a sometimes people say hell uh in a sometimes people say hell uh in a sometimes people say something like you know religion is for something like you know religion is for something like you know religion is for people who are afraid of Hell AA is for people who are afraid of Hell AA is for people who are afraid of Hell AA is for people who have been through people who have been through people who have been through hell and um uh but where that leads hell and um uh but where that leads hell and um uh but where that leads people um if if they run into Grace is people um if if they run into Grace is people um if if they run into Grace is uh they uh they uh they recognize authentically I desperately recognize authentically I desperately recognize authentically I desperately need God I've got to have God God is my need God I've got to have God God is my need God I've got to have God God is my only only only hope and so they become willing to hope and so they become willing to hope and so they become willing to engage with the other steps in AA like engage with the other steps in AA like engage with the other steps in AA like doing a fearless and searching moral doing a fearless and searching moral doing a fearless and searching moral inventory um they're willing to engage inventory um they're willing to engage inventory um they're willing to engage in that because they know they have a in that because they know they have a in that because they know they have a desperate desperate desperate need and the difficult for a lot of us need and the difficult for a lot of us need and the difficult for a lot of us in the church I think that everybody we in the church I think that everybody we in the church I think that everybody we all have addictions we're all attached all have addictions we're all attached all have addictions we're all attached to something um uh what the Old to something um uh what the Old to something um uh what the Old Testament calls idolatry in our often we Testament calls idolatry in our often we Testament calls idolatry in our often we will call addictions and we all have

will call addictions and we all have will call addictions and we all have them but a lot of us have the luxury of them but a lot of us have the luxury of them but a lot of us have the luxury of thinking I'm really doing thinking I'm really doing thinking I'm really doing okay that folks in AA do not have so one okay that folks in AA do not have so one okay that folks in AA do not have so one friend told me years ago when I started friend told me years ago when I started friend told me years ago when I started studying this stuff and he'd been in AA studying this stuff and he'd been in AA studying this stuff and he'd been in AA for like 30 years he said John I predict for like 30 years he said John I predict for like 30 years he said John I predict before very long you will be jealous before very long you will be jealous before very long you will be jealous that you're not an that you're not an that you're not an alcoholic and it wasn't long before I alcoholic and it wasn't long before I alcoholic and it wasn't long before I came to understand what he meant um came to understand what he meant um came to understand what he meant um because very often for people who are in because very often for people who are in because very often for people who are in that Community as they begin to discover that Community as they begin to discover that Community as they begin to discover the spiritual power of the 12 steps and the spiritual power of the 12 steps and the spiritual power of the 12 steps and then connect those steps to then connect those steps to then connect those steps to Jesus uh they'll say thank God for my Jesus uh they'll say thank God for my Jesus uh they'll say thank God for my addiction not because it's such a great addiction not because it's such a great addiction not because it's such a great thing to be an addict it's horrible but thing to be an addict it's horrible but thing to be an addict it's horrible but because that led me into a way of life because that led me into a way of life because that led me into a way of life that I just wouldn't have been that I just wouldn't have been that I just wouldn't have been interested in if I didn't have that interested in if I didn't have that interested in if I didn't have that problem so often people will wonder um problem so often people will wonder um problem so often people will wonder um how come the church can't be more like how come the church can't be more like how come the church can't be more like AA AA AA and you know a hundred pastors have and you know a hundred pastors have and you know a hundred pastors have preached or talked about that there's a preached or talked about that there's a preached or talked about that there's a whole book that just has the title why whole book that just has the title why whole book that just has the title why can't the church be more like an AA can't the church be more like an AA can't the church be more like an AA meeting and we often ask that question meeting and we often ask that question meeting and we often ask that question rhetorically I actually don't think it's rhetorically I actually don't think it's rhetorically I actually don't think it's a rhetorical question at all it's a a rhetorical question at all it's a a rhetorical question at all it's a really important question and I think really important question and I think really important question and I think there is an answer to it and the answer there is an answer to it and the answer there is an answer to it and the answer is the church can be more like an AA is the church can be more like an AA is the church can be more like an AA meeting if those of us who go to church meeting if those of us who go to church meeting if those of us who go to church are willing to be more like alcoholics and uh that's the problem we have a hard

and uh that's the problem we have a hard time um Conjuring up uh an authentic time um Conjuring up uh an authentic time um Conjuring up uh an authentic sense of desperate sense of desperate sense of desperate need okay uh I mentioned in passing to need okay uh I mentioned in passing to need okay uh I mentioned in passing to you before and then briefly in this you before and then briefly in this you before and then briefly in this podcast that I'm recovering from food podcast that I'm recovering from food podcast that I'm recovering from food poisoning so I had a bit of a spiritual poisoning so I had a bit of a spiritual poisoning so I had a bit of a spiritual awakening the day after my food awakening the day after my food awakening the day after my food poisoning I think it was lunch at the poisoning I think it was lunch at the poisoning I think it was lunch at the airport I think there was something to airport I think there was something to airport I think there was something to the lettuce or whatever but it came on the lettuce or whatever but it came on the lettuce or whatever but it came on violently first time pardon me I've ever violently first time pardon me I've ever violently first time pardon me I've ever vomited on a plane just made it to the vomited on a plane just made it to the vomited on a plane just made it to the bathroom on time and then I'm back in bathroom on time and then I'm back in bathroom on time and then I'm back in Canada trying to get through customs and Canada trying to get through customs and Canada trying to get through customs and I've got the express lane you know and I've got the express lane you know and I've got the express lane you know and literally there were there were three or literally there were there were three or literally there were there were three or four it's hard to hard to keep I was so four it's hard to hard to keep I was so four it's hard to hard to keep I was so weak I could barely stand up three or weak I could barely stand up three or weak I could barely stand up three or four garbage cans that I had never four garbage cans that I had never four garbage cans that I had never noticed before next to the kiosks where noticed before next to the kiosks where noticed before next to the kiosks where you tap your Nexus card your global you tap your Nexus card your global you tap your Nexus card your global entry and then you know I had to use entry and then you know I had to use entry and then you know I had to use three of them in about 5 minutes to three of them in about 5 minutes to three of them in about 5 minutes to throw up wow nobody nobody nobody throw up wow nobody nobody nobody throw up wow nobody nobody nobody stopped ask how I was but John I was so stopped ask how I was but John I was so stopped ask how I was but John I was so desperate I can't remember a time where desperate I can't remember a time where desperate I can't remember a time where I was more desperate in my life I was I was more desperate in my life I was I was more desperate in my life I was either like going to nail the passenger either like going to nail the passenger either like going to nail the passenger ahead of me or behind me or find a ahead of me or behind me or find a ahead of me or behind me or find a garbage bag and I in that moment just garbage bag and I in that moment just garbage bag and I in that moment just remember I don't care if anyone's remember I don't care if anyone's remember I don't care if anyone's videoing this whether it'll show up like videoing this whether it'll show up like videoing this whether it'll show up like there was no dignity left yes there was there was no dignity left yes there was there was no dignity left yes there was just desperation and I I spotted those just desperation and I I spotted those just desperation and I I spotted those and then I got out of there and somehow

and then I got out of there and somehow and then I got out of there and somehow I miraculously got home and just went to I miraculously got home and just went to I miraculously got home and just went to bed for 12 hours up a lot obviously over bed for 12 hours up a lot obviously over bed for 12 hours up a lot obviously over the course of the night while I the course of the night while I the course of the night while I recovered but that was a level of recovered but that was a level of recovered but that was a level of desperation that I don't think I'd had desperation that I don't think I'd had desperation that I don't think I'd had in my life because i' had never been in in my life because i' had never been in in my life because i' had never been in a public context and shame disappeared a public context and shame disappeared a public context and shame disappeared it was fascinating is that the it was fascinating is that the it was fascinating is that the neighborhood of what we're talking about neighborhood of what we're talking about neighborhood of what we're talking about here cuz I would say as a Christian here cuz I would say as a Christian here cuz I would say as a Christian I don't really have that level of I don't really have that level of I don't really have that level of desperation yeah um yes it is in the desperation yeah um yes it is in the desperation yeah um yes it is in the neighborhood and first of all I'm so neighborhood and first of all I'm so neighborhood and first of all I'm so sorry that you went through that I just sorry that you went through that I just sorry that you went through that I just feel like man I wish I would have been feel like man I wish I would have been feel like man I wish I would have been there to put an arm on your shoulder and there to put an arm on your shoulder and there to put an arm on your shoulder and that's just miserable and God crazy it that's just miserable and God crazy it that's just miserable and God crazy it was so violent temporary so was so violent temporary so was so violent temporary so violent but no that that's exactly right violent but no that that's exactly right violent but no that that's exactly right that's where uh in Jesus day either that's where uh in Jesus day either that's where uh in Jesus day either because people were afraid of what they because people were afraid of what they because people were afraid of what they would become apart from him or because would become apart from him or because would become apart from him or because the vision of The Wonder of being able the vision of The Wonder of being able the vision of The Wonder of being able to follow him was so positive there was to follow him was so positive there was to follow him was so positive there was just this desperate need so you know just this desperate need so you know just this desperate need so you know people are cutting holes through the people are cutting holes through the people are cutting holes through the ceiling of somebody's house so they ceiling of somebody's house so they ceiling of somebody's house so they could get their friend to them or a could get their friend to them or a could get their friend to them or a woman is just running through the crowd woman is just running through the crowd woman is just running through the crowd trampling through people to grab a hold trampling through people to grab a hold trampling through people to grab a hold of the Hem of His Garment um you know of the Hem of His Garment um you know of the Hem of His Garment um you know that's a picture of what's going on um I that's a picture of what's going on um I that's a picture of what's going on um I think for a lot of us that work at think for a lot of us that work at think for a lot of us that work at churches it's very striking to me churches it's very striking to me churches it's very striking to me um if you think about the 12 Steps um um if you think about the 12 Steps um um if you think about the 12 Steps um they include practices that we all know

they include practices that we all know they include practices that we all know will be involved in discipleship so will be involved in discipleship so will be involved in discipleship so self-examination Fearless moral self-examination Fearless moral self-examination Fearless moral inventory confession admitted to another inventory confession admitted to another inventory confession admitted to another person um prayer in scripture sought to person um prayer in scripture sought to person um prayer in scripture sought to remove our sought to improve our remove our sought to improve our remove our sought to improve our conscious contact by God is in the 11th conscious contact by God is in the 11th conscious contact by God is in the 11th step um serving and being generous and step um serving and being generous and step um serving and being generous and caring for other people that's in the caring for other people that's in the caring for other people that's in the 12th step making amends with other 12th step making amends with other 12th step making amends with other people seeking reconciliation fellow people seeking reconciliation fellow people seeking reconciliation fellow ship gather together it's not rocket ship gather together it's not rocket ship gather together it's not rocket science those steps are not rocket science those steps are not rocket science those steps are not rocket science and we're all trying to figure science and we're all trying to figure science and we're all trying to figure out what's the rule of Life what's the out what's the rule of Life what's the out what's the rule of Life what's the discipleship pathway how do we make it discipleship pathway how do we make it discipleship pathway how do we make it clear what's striking is the places clear what's striking is the places clear what's striking is the places where those practices tend to be deeply where those practices tend to be deeply where those practices tend to be deeply transformative are places where people transformative are places where people transformative are places where people experience unforced experience unforced experience unforced desperation addiction is one of those desperation addiction is one of those desperation addiction is one of those places prison Ministries is another one places prison Ministries is another one places prison Ministries is another one if you've ever been involved in prison if you've ever been involved in prison if you've ever been involved in prison Ministries or people have generally Ministries or people have generally Ministries or people have generally people in prison are living a different people in prison are living a different people in prison are living a different way of life but you have a group of way of life but you have a group of way of life but you have a group of people where are like I really want to people where are like I really want to people where are like I really want to follow God I really want to belong to follow God I really want to belong to follow God I really want to belong to Jesus and being in that position where Jesus and being in that position where Jesus and being in that position where they're cut off from a lot of other they're cut off from a lot of other they're cut off from a lot of other options and they're devoting themselves options and they're devoting themselves options and they're devoting themselves with sufficient intensity so again it's with sufficient intensity so again it's with sufficient intensity so again it's all like that acts two community and all like that acts two community and all like that acts two community and they devoted themselves to the apostles they devoted themselves to the apostles they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and to pray to the breaking of teaching and to pray to the breaking of teaching and to pray to the breaking of bread and fellowship day by day they bread and fellowship day by day they bread and fellowship day by day they gathered um where people experien great gathered um where people experien great gathered um where people experien great poverty where the church is under deep poverty where the church is under deep poverty where the church is under deep persecution remember being in Ethiopia persecution remember being in Ethiopia persecution remember being in Ethiopia years ago when it was a Marxist country years ago when it was a Marxist country years ago when it was a Marxist country and when the church would gather and when the church would gather and when the church would gather together quite extraordinary things were

together quite extraordinary things were together quite extraordinary things were going on and people's experience of joy going on and people's experience of joy going on and people's experience of joy and depth of spiritual life intensity of and depth of spiritual life intensity of and depth of spiritual life intensity of that was quite remarkable when people that was quite remarkable when people that was quite remarkable when people have gone through great suffering um uh have gone through great suffering um uh have gone through great suffering um uh people that have gone through a divorce people that have gone through a divorce people that have gone through a divorce maybe or people that are terminally ill maybe or people that are terminally ill maybe or people that are terminally ill um you will often find a way of life um you will often find a way of life um you will often find a way of life becomes intensely transformational to becomes intensely transformational to becomes intensely transformational to people when they're living on the people when they're living on the people when they're living on the margins and it's not because of Pain by margins and it's not because of Pain by margins and it's not because of Pain by itself it's because it often brings to itself it's because it often brings to itself it's because it often brings to people the motivation to engage in a way people the motivation to engage in a way people the motivation to engage in a way of life with sufficient intensity and of life with sufficient intensity and of life with sufficient intensity and that's just lacking for most of us in that's just lacking for most of us in that's just lacking for most of us in the church so mostly what is needed is the church so mostly what is needed is the church so mostly what is needed is not This brilliant creative how do we not This brilliant creative how do we not This brilliant creative how do we package the rule of life or how do we package the rule of life or how do we package the rule of life or how do we package this step STS or how do we talk package this step STS or how do we talk package this step STS or how do we talk people into it it's um uh when that people into it it's um uh when that people into it it's um uh when that level of vision or need or desperation level of vision or need or desperation level of vision or need or desperation is strong enough um um then the way of is strong enough um um then the way of is strong enough um um then the way of life becomes deeply transformational and life becomes deeply transformational and life becomes deeply transformational and that's part of what I think we can learn that's part of what I think we can learn that's part of what I think we can learn from uh that Community that's why I from uh that Community that's why I from uh that Community that's why I think it's so important to understand uh think it's so important to understand uh think it's so important to understand uh I believe that the 12 steps can be I believe that the 12 steps can be I believe that the 12 steps can be should be not just a recovery thing not should be not just a recovery thing not should be not just a recovery thing not just a recovery tool um but actually uh just a recovery tool um but actually uh just a recovery tool um but actually uh if you're looking for it if you need one if you're looking for it if you need one if you're looking for it if you need one if you haven't found one yet a framework if you haven't found one yet a framework if you haven't found one yet a framework for life for spiritual life that can be

for life for spiritual life that can be for life for spiritual life that can be helpful for any of us whether we think helpful for any of us whether we think helpful for any of us whether we think of ourselves as addicts or not so the of ourselves as addicts or not so the of ourselves as addicts or not so the conditions that you're describing are conditions that you're describing are conditions that you're describing are exactly the opposite of everything we exactly the opposite of everything we exactly the opposite of everything we aspire to in the western world it's the aspire to in the western world it's the aspire to in the western world it's the opposite of what we want for our opposite of what we want for our opposite of what we want for our children it's the opposite of what we children it's the opposite of what we children it's the opposite of what we work for in our lives and you're sitting work for in our lives and you're sitting work for in our lives and you're sitting in a comfortable home I'm in a in a comfortable home I'm in a in a comfortable home I'm in a comfortable home you know how do you get comfortable home you know how do you get comfortable home you know how do you get desperate in that no wonder Jesus had desperate in that no wonder Jesus had desperate in that no wonder Jesus had words for the rich yeah and the words for the rich yeah and the words for the rich yeah and the comfortable I mean and and we're guilty comfortable I mean and and we're guilty comfortable I mean and and we're guilty you know guilty relatively speaking I'm you know guilty relatively speaking I'm you know guilty relatively speaking I'm Pretty stinking comfortable yeah um now Pretty stinking comfortable yeah um now Pretty stinking comfortable yeah um now that's a great question Carrie and I that's a great question Carrie and I that's a great question Carrie and I think think think uh one of again a thousand sayings in uh one of again a thousand sayings in uh one of again a thousand sayings in recovery communities is um recovery communities is um recovery communities is um don't just do something sit don't just do something sit don't just do something sit there and I always used to think that there and I always used to think that there and I always used to think that was just kind of a cute little was just kind of a cute little was just kind of a cute little expression but actually uh there's a expression but actually uh there's a expression but actually uh there's a deep meaning in it for anywhere I think deep meaning in it for anywhere I think deep meaning in it for anywhere I think for any of us we will be brought to the for any of us we will be brought to the for any of us we will be brought to the broken place of Brokenness and pain when broken place of Brokenness and pain when broken place of Brokenness and pain when we confront primarily our own we confront primarily our own we confront primarily our own sin and uh you know for me it's often sin and uh you know for me it's often sin and uh you know for me it's often involved when I look at a family that I involved when I look at a family that I involved when I look at a family that I love and think there's a Brokenness to love and think there's a Brokenness to love and think there's a Brokenness to it and I cannot fix it part of it has to it and I cannot fix it part of it has to it and I cannot fix it part of it has to do with who have I been as a dad or the do with who have I been as a dad or the do with who have I been as a dad or the churches that I've served where I see churches that I've served where I see churches that I've served where I see that Gap and I think I wanted to be that

that Gap and I think I wanted to be that that Gap and I think I wanted to be that person and I haven't been and I'm not at person and I haven't been and I'm not at person and I haven't been and I'm not at this start now I'm at a different place this start now I'm at a different place this start now I'm at a different place in my life so uh God that's a really in my life so uh God that's a really in my life so uh God that's a really painful place and it might be for you as painful place and it might be for you as painful place and it might be for you as you're listening it might be around your you're listening it might be around your you're listening it might be around your children or around your marriage or children or around your marriage or children or around your marriage or around some habit and I think we all use around some habit and I think we all use around some habit and I think we all use um money power success busyness to um money power success busyness to um money power success busyness to medicate ourselves and to void looking medicate ourselves and to void looking medicate ourselves and to void looking at the pain of sin and Brokenness in our at the pain of sin and Brokenness in our at the pain of sin and Brokenness in our lives and so the invitation is uh to lives and so the invitation is uh to lives and so the invitation is uh to come to that place and don't just do come to that place and don't just do come to that place and don't just do something sit something sit something sit there there there until uh my not just an intellectual affirmation not just an intellectual affirmation that I make on the that I make on the that I make on the surface but a felt reality in my surface but a felt reality in my surface but a felt reality in my soul uh God I need soul uh God I need soul uh God I need you and you know that may come from a you and you know that may come from a you and you know that may come from a variety of different variety of different variety of different places uh but it brings me to the place places uh but it brings me to the place places uh but it brings me to the place where I where I where I say uh admitted that we were it's say uh admitted that we were it's say uh admitted that we were it's interesting in the 12 steps they're all interesting in the 12 steps they're all interesting in the 12 steps they're all put in the past put in the past put in the past tense that's very tense that's very tense that's very significant uh uh they got codified significant uh uh they got codified significant uh uh they got codified after for several years uh one and then

after for several years uh one and then after for several years uh one and then two and then a dozen and then scores of two and then a dozen and then scores of two and then a dozen and then scores of people found power from God to be people found power from God to be people found power from God to be liberated in them and so they were liberated in them and so they were liberated in them and so they were discovered to work first and the first discovered to work first and the first discovered to work first and the first one is admitted that we were powerless one is admitted that we were powerless one is admitted that we were powerless over now in them the word alcohol is over now in them the word alcohol is over now in them the word alcohol is used interestingly first step is the used interestingly first step is the used interestingly first step is the only step that mentions the word alcohol only step that mentions the word alcohol only step that mentions the word alcohol because the rest of them are just about because the rest of them are just about because the rest of them are just about spiritual life but now you put in spiritual life but now you put in spiritual life but now you put in whatever word you need to put into that whatever word you need to put into that whatever word you need to put into that place and it may not be alcohol place and it may not be alcohol place and it may not be alcohol powerless over my child powerless over powerless over my child powerless over powerless over my child powerless over my anger powerless over my ego powerless my anger powerless over my ego powerless my anger powerless over my ego powerless over this sexual habit powerless over over this sexual habit powerless over over this sexual habit powerless over the way I treat other people whatever it the way I treat other people whatever it the way I treat other people whatever it is and my life had become unmanageable now if you think you're not powerless now if you think you're not powerless and you're not unmanageable it's just and you're not unmanageable it's just and you're not unmanageable it's just going to be harder it's just going to be going to be harder it's just going to be going to be harder it's just going to be harder and uh maybe a a a vision of the harder and uh maybe a a a vision of the harder and uh maybe a a a vision of the beauty of following God and what your beauty of following God and what your beauty of following God and what your life could count for will come to you life could count for will come to you life could count for will come to you that is so powerful that that will be that is so powerful that that will be that is so powerful that that will be sufficient to motivate you to say now sufficient to motivate you to say now sufficient to motivate you to say now I'll engage in all the other steps with I'll engage in all the other steps with I'll engage in all the other steps with sufficient intensity um uh the guy who sufficient intensity um uh the guy who sufficient intensity um uh the guy who wrote the book about why can't life be wrote the book about why can't life be wrote the book about why can't life be more like uh why can't Church be more more like uh why can't Church be more more like uh why can't Church be more like an a meeting said it maybe for like an a meeting said it maybe for like an a meeting said it maybe for Christians there needs to be like a Step Christians there needs to be like a Step Christians there needs to be like a Step Zero before step one and Step Zero is we Zero before step one and Step Zero is we Zero before step one and Step Zero is we admitted that our life was not

admitted that our life was not admitted that our life was not [Music] [Music] [Music] fine so often we go to church how you fine so often we go to church how you fine so often we go to church how you doing fine how are things going fine so doing fine how are things going fine so doing fine how are things going fine so Step Zero might just be you might just Step Zero might just be you might just Step Zero might just be you might just start if you're not ready for powerless start if you're not ready for powerless start if you're not ready for powerless and unmanageable yet just start with not and unmanageable yet just start with not and unmanageable yet just start with not fine and and you got to start where you fine and and you got to start where you fine and and you got to start where you are you know it's so interesting I've are you know it's so interesting I've are you know it's so interesting I've I've thought a lot and did some teaching I've thought a lot and did some teaching I've thought a lot and did some teaching around this too the Lost Art of around this too the Lost Art of around this too the Lost Art of confession I mean in well you and I were confession I mean in well you and I were confession I mean in well you and I were raised in or spent some time in a raised in or spent some time in a raised in or spent some time in a similar tradition you know and in a similar tradition you know and in a similar tradition you know and in a reformed order of worship you do a reformed order of worship you do a reformed order of worship you do a prayer of approach and confession yeah I prayer of approach and confession yeah I prayer of approach and confession yeah I can't remember the last time I heard a can't remember the last time I heard a can't remember the last time I heard a prayer of confession in an Evangelical prayer of confession in an Evangelical prayer of confession in an Evangelical Church unless it was following some kind Church unless it was following some kind Church unless it was following some kind of moral debacle right that had happened of moral debacle right that had happened of moral debacle right that had happened where oh I shouldn't have done this but where oh I shouldn't have done this but where oh I shouldn't have done this but but there's no like routine confession but there's no like routine confession but there's no like routine confession small group is not a lot of confession small group is not a lot of confession small group is not a lot of confession often and I'm wondering you know how do often and I'm wondering you know how do often and I'm wondering you know how do you get to that place of Brokenness you get to that place of Brokenness you get to that place of Brokenness where you really go no it's not my wife where you really go no it's not my wife where you really go no it's not my wife it's me no it's not her him it it's me it's me no it's not her him it it's me it's me no it's not her him it it's me that is so painful for a lot of people that is so painful for a lot of people that is so painful for a lot of people these days and I think we've culturally these days and I think we've culturally these days and I think we've culturally Lo and in the church lost the vocabulary Lo and in the church lost the vocabulary Lo and in the church lost the vocabulary for that John yeah yep um lots to unpack for that John yeah yep um lots to unpack for that John yeah yep um lots to unpack there Carrie uh a huge problem is um we there Carrie uh a huge problem is um we there Carrie uh a huge problem is um we don't have good language for it anymore don't have good language for it anymore don't have good language for it anymore you know the word sinner doesn't do it you know the word sinner doesn't do it you know the word sinner doesn't do it if you go to an AA meeting it starts if you go to an AA meeting it starts if you go to an AA meeting it starts with um uh the celebration of personal

with um uh the celebration of personal with um uh the celebration of personal inadequacy my name is John I'm an inadequacy my name is John I'm an inadequacy my name is John I'm an alcoholic now what everybody knows alcoholic now what everybody knows alcoholic now what everybody knows is um whoever says that has been through is um whoever says that has been through is um whoever says that has been through hell uh before somebody says that they hell uh before somebody says that they hell uh before somebody says that they have resisted saying that for days weeks have resisted saying that for days weeks have resisted saying that for days weeks months months months years they have been through humiliation years they have been through humiliation years they have been through humiliation they have lost money they've lied lost a they have lost money they've lied lost a they have lost money they've lied lost a marriage uh killed somebody in a car marriage uh killed somebody in a car marriage uh killed somebody in a car accident lost a job um by the time they accident lost a job um by the time they accident lost a job um by the time they say those words they have been utterly say those words they have been utterly say those words they have been utterly humbled and that's simply a reality in humbled and that's simply a reality in humbled and that's simply a reality in their life and the problem for most of their life and the problem for most of their life and the problem for most of us is when we go to church even if we us is when we go to church even if we us is when we go to church even if we say um I have sinned we have sinned we say um I have sinned we have sinned we say um I have sinned we have sinned we have not experienced what the alcoholic have not experienced what the alcoholic have not experienced what the alcoholic has has has experienced and so the difficulty then experienced and so the difficulty then experienced and so the difficulty then is uh that healing power is not is uh that healing power is not is uh that healing power is not available to us in the same way and available to us in the same way and available to us in the same way and because we haven't seen the consequences because we haven't seen the consequences because we haven't seen the consequences of our of our of our sin yeah yep yep we haven't uh sin yeah yep yep we haven't uh sin yeah yep yep we haven't uh experienced the loss and the reality and experienced the loss and the reality and experienced the loss and the reality and the pain of them often in a way that an the pain of them often in a way that an the pain of them often in a way that an alcoh it has and that's where in a real alcoh it has and that's where in a real alcoh it has and that's where in a real odd way if somebody gets caught you know odd way if somebody gets caught you know odd way if somebody gets caught you know we'll read all the times about a pastor we'll read all the times about a pastor we'll read all the times about a pastor who gets caught in a sexual Affair or who gets caught in a sexual Affair or who gets caught in a sexual Affair or gets caught stealing money or gets gets caught stealing money or gets gets caught stealing money or gets caught abusing power and we all think

caught abusing power and we all think caught abusing power and we all think what a terrible situation um ironically what a terrible situation um ironically what a terrible situation um ironically paradoxically often great Graces is paradoxically often great Graces is paradoxically often great Graces is offered in those moments because as long offered in those moments because as long offered in those moments because as long as I'm not caught I'm not experiencing as I'm not caught I'm not experiencing as I'm not caught I'm not experiencing much pain in it much pain in it much pain in it but when I'm caught all of a sudden what but when I'm caught all of a sudden what but when I'm caught all of a sudden what happens is I realize oh look who I've happens is I realize oh look who I've happens is I realize oh look who I've become look what I have done and I become look what I have done and I become look what I have done and I recognize my need for Grace now it was recognize my need for Grace now it was recognize my need for Grace now it was there before I just wasn't experiencing there before I just wasn't experiencing there before I just wasn't experiencing it I just wasn't thinking of it I it I just wasn't thinking of it I it I just wasn't thinking of it I promise you we have all done things we promise you we have all done things we promise you we have all done things we have all either gone to sites or treated have all either gone to sites or treated have all either gone to sites or treated people or had conversations or used people or had conversations or used people or had conversations or used money or lied in ways that if it was money or lied in ways that if it was money or lied in ways that if it was captured on film and shown to a captured on film and shown to a captured on film and shown to a congregation on a Sunday morning we congregation on a Sunday morning we congregation on a Sunday morning we would be devastated by but only because would be devastated by but only because would be devastated by but only because it hasn't been and is not shown to it hasn't been and is not shown to it hasn't been and is not shown to everybody we don't feel it we don't everybody we don't feel it we don't everybody we don't feel it we don't carry it yeah so really the ones who get carry it yeah so really the ones who get carry it yeah so really the ones who get caught and go through that pain are not caught and go through that pain are not caught and go through that pain are not the most unfortunate ones the most the most unfortunate ones the most the most unfortunate ones the most unfortunate ones are the ones who are unfortunate ones are the ones who are unfortunate ones are the ones who are experiencing that and not getting caught experiencing that and not getting caught experiencing that and not getting caught and not going through it because we and not going through it because we and not going through it because we don't know the healing that might be don't know the healing that might be don't know the healing that might be available to available to available to us us us yeah there's a saying in AA I got drunk yeah there's a saying in AA I got drunk yeah there's a saying in AA I got drunk we got sober yeah I think did I get that we got sober yeah I think did I get that we got sober yeah I think did I get that right um talk about the value of right um talk about the value of right um talk about the value of community you know when we think about community you know when we think about community you know when we think about the Lost start of confession John first

the Lost start of confession John first the Lost start of confession John first of all if we pray prayers of confession of all if we pray prayers of confession of all if we pray prayers of confession they tend to be personal we rarely they tend to be personal we rarely they tend to be personal we rarely confess our sins communally and yet confess our sins communally and yet confess our sins communally and yet that's something the scripture says very that's something the scripture says very that's something the scripture says very clearly we ought to be doing it's just clearly we ought to be doing it's just clearly we ought to be doing it's just lost on this generation uh what what lost on this generation uh what what lost on this generation uh what what what's at stake when you do not confess what's at stake when you do not confess what's at stake when you do not confess your sins to each other yeah I I think your sins to each other yeah I I think your sins to each other yeah I I think part of what we can learn from AA is part of what we can learn from AA is part of what we can learn from AA is just um concrete spiritual just um concrete spiritual just um concrete spiritual Dynamics and they are taught by Jesus Dynamics and they are taught by Jesus Dynamics and they are taught by Jesus and they are present in the Bible um and they are present in the Bible um and they are present in the Bible um the pain and reality of addiction and the pain and reality of addiction and the pain and reality of addiction and its its its weakness uh have a way of of bringing weakness uh have a way of of bringing weakness uh have a way of of bringing them to the surface and making them them to the surface and making them them to the surface and making them Concrete in ways that we can all learn Concrete in ways that we can all learn Concrete in ways that we can all learn for so in the beginning of the big book for so in the beginning of the big book for so in the beginning of the big book it says everybody needs two things we it says everybody needs two things we it says everybody needs two things we need a program what's a program well the need a program what's a program well the need a program what's a program well the program is the 12 Steps but really program is the 12 Steps but really program is the 12 Steps but really that's just that's the rule of life that's just that's the rule of life that's just that's the rule of life that's acts two and they devoted that's acts two and they devoted that's acts two and they devoted themselves to the apostles teaching themselves to the apostles teaching themselves to the apostles teaching again it's not rocket science it's a way again it's not rocket science it's a way again it's not rocket science it's a way of life it's um non-legalistic of life it's um non-legalistic of life it's um non-legalistic non-superficial non-superficial non-superficial non-mechanical rhythms and practices non-mechanical rhythms and practices non-mechanical rhythms and practices that enable us to receive power and that enable us to receive power and that enable us to receive power and staying uh at home with our father staying uh at home with our father staying uh at home with our father that's the program got to work the that's the program got to work the that's the program got to work the program and uh people will know are you program and uh people will know are you program and uh people will know are you working the program or you not working working the program or you not working working the program or you not working the program but then we need a the program but then we need a the program but then we need a fellowship you can't just have the fellowship you can't just have the fellowship you can't just have the program if you don't have a fellowship program if you don't have a fellowship program if you don't have a fellowship you will never make it and that's just you will never make it and that's just you will never make it and that's just an empirical matter of fact that folks an empirical matter of fact that folks an empirical matter of fact that folks who struggle with addiction know

who struggle with addiction know who struggle with addiction know spiritually so step two is came to spiritually so step two is came to spiritually so step two is came to believe that a power greater than believe that a power greater than believe that a power greater than ourselves and we know that to be the God ourselves and we know that to be the God ourselves and we know that to be the God and Father that Jesus and self and Father that Jesus and self and Father that Jesus and self manifested could restore us not to manifested could restore us not to manifested could restore us not to sobriety but to sobriety but to sobriety but to sanity that is to have the mind of sanity that is to have the mind of sanity that is to have the mind of Christ now how do I come to believe that Christ now how do I come to believe that Christ now how do I come to believe that well AA will often talk about we came we well AA will often talk about we came we well AA will often talk about we came we came to we came to believe we came to came to we came to believe we came to came to we came to believe we came to meetings that's Community that's the meetings that's Community that's the meetings that's Community that's the Philip you go to meetings 90 meetings in Philip you go to meetings 90 meetings in Philip you go to meetings 90 meetings in 90 days when you first get in why do you 90 days when you first get in why do you 90 days when you first get in why do you have to do that because you're looking have to do that because you're looking have to do that because you're looking at other people whose lives have been at other people whose lives have been at other people whose lives have been changed by the grace of God and you changed by the grace of God and you changed by the grace of God and you realize it worked for her it worked for realize it worked for her it worked for realize it worked for her it worked for her it worked for him it worked for him her it worked for him it worked for him her it worked for him it worked for him if it'll work for them then I can come if it'll work for them then I can come if it'll work for them then I can come to believe it could work for to believe it could work for to believe it could work for me so I come to the Bible I come to me so I come to the Bible I come to me so I come to the Bible I come to church I come to this relationship it's church I come to this relationship it's church I come to this relationship it's very very concrete but it's not abstract very very concrete but it's not abstract very very concrete but it's not abstract I need to have enough faith that I come I need to have enough faith that I come I need to have enough faith that I come to believe that God can do this to me so to believe that God can do this to me so to believe that God can do this to me so I'll devote myself to the program the I'll devote myself to the program the I'll devote myself to the program the way of life it's not just this abstract way of life it's not just this abstract way of life it's not just this abstract ethereal you know how much do you ethereal you know how much do you ethereal you know how much do you believe how much certainty you have it's believe how much certainty you have it's believe how much certainty you have it's so that you actually will be on the so that you actually will be on the so that you actually will be on the discipleship path and then when it comes discipleship path and then when it comes discipleship path and then when it comes to confession it's very interesting I'll to confession it's very interesting I'll to confession it's very interesting I'll skip over step four for a moment the skip over step four for a moment the skip over step four for a moment the inventory deal step five is we admitted inventory deal step five is we admitted inventory deal step five is we admitted to God ourselves and one other person to God ourselves and one other person to God ourselves and one other person the exact nature of our

the exact nature of our the exact nature of our wrongs and for most of us you know in wrongs and for most of us you know in wrongs and for most of us you know in the church we'll kind of figure out two the church we'll kind of figure out two the church we'll kind of figure out two out of three ain't bad I'm willing to out of three ain't bad I'm willing to out of three ain't bad I'm willing to say you know God forgive me and say you know God forgive me and say you know God forgive me and acknowledge that to some level to myself acknowledge that to some level to myself acknowledge that to some level to myself but another person you know I don't have but another person you know I don't have but another person you know I don't have to do that you know the deal most of us to do that you know the deal most of us to do that you know the deal most of us in Evangelical churches feel like the in Evangelical churches feel like the in Evangelical churches feel like the deal is God promised to forgive me I deal is God promised to forgive me I deal is God promised to forgive me I don't need a priest I don't need a don't need a priest I don't need a don't need a priest I don't need a Confessor I can go direct to the source Confessor I can go direct to the source Confessor I can go direct to the source and I can get it without going through and I can get it without going through and I can get it without going through that embarrassment and humiliation and that embarrassment and humiliation and that embarrassment and humiliation and of course God can forgive anybody of of course God can forgive anybody of of course God can forgive anybody of anything that's part of what it means to anything that's part of what it means to anything that's part of what it means to be God the the question is what do I be God the the question is what do I be God the the question is what do I need to experience the power and healing need to experience the power and healing need to experience the power and healing of being forgiven and so James 5:116 of being forgiven and so James 5:116 of being forgiven and so James 5:116 confess your sins to one another and confess your sins to one another and confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you might be pray for one another that you might be pray for one another that you might be healed and can I tell you a story about healed and can I tell you a story about healed and can I tell you a story about that one out of my own life Gary yeah that one out of my own life Gary yeah that one out of my own life Gary yeah please do so I decided many years ago please do so I decided many years ago please do so I decided many years ago that I'd like to have somebody in my that I'd like to have somebody in my that I'd like to have somebody in my life um who plays that role before whom life um who plays that role before whom life um who plays that role before whom I have no I have no I have no secrets and um I I had a guy who had secrets and um I I had a guy who had secrets and um I I had a guy who had been a very very good friend for 10 been a very very good friend for 10 been a very very good friend for 10 years so I knew his character I knew years so I knew his character I knew years so I knew his character I knew that I could trust him I knew he would that I could trust him I knew he would that I could trust him I knew he would be be be confidential and I asked him if he would confidential and I asked him if he would confidential and I asked him if he would be willing to hear my confession and he be willing to hear my confession and he be willing to hear my confession and he said yeah so I spent weeks getting ready said yeah so I spent weeks getting ready said yeah so I spent weeks getting ready for this reviewing my life thinking

for this reviewing my life thinking for this reviewing my life thinking about and actually writing down what are about and actually writing down what are about and actually writing down what are the moment ments the acts the the moment ments the acts the the moment ments the acts the habits that I'm most embarrassed about habits that I'm most embarrassed about habits that I'm most embarrassed about most ashamed of in my relationships my most ashamed of in my relationships my most ashamed of in my relationships my anger my sexuality for a lot of us anger my sexuality for a lot of us anger my sexuality for a lot of us that's a place of lots of deep pain or that's a place of lots of deep pain or that's a place of lots of deep pain or shame money how do I actually spend my shame money how do I actually spend my shame money how do I actually spend my money what do I do with it how much do I money what do I do with it how much do I money what do I do with it how much do I actually give uh my ambition my church actually give uh my ambition my church actually give uh my ambition my church life what do people thinking with me life what do people thinking with me life what do people thinking with me there my approval addiction just all there my approval addiction just all there my approval addiction just all that stuff that stuff that stuff um wrote it down and then I met with um wrote it down and then I met with um wrote it down and then I met with Rick and uh it took quite a long time Rick and uh it took quite a long time Rick and uh it took quite a long time just read through everything I had just read through everything I had just read through everything I had written written written down and down and down and um it was it was very painful and very um it was it was very painful and very um it was it was very painful and very humiliating and when I got to the end of humiliating and when I got to the end of humiliating and when I got to the end of it uh I did not want to look at him it uh I did not want to look at him it uh I did not want to look at him because I just felt because I just felt because I just felt embarrassed and I did not anticipate embarrassed and I did not anticipate embarrassed and I did not anticipate what he was going to say what he said to what he was going to say what he said to what he was going to say what he said to me was just his very first words were me was just his very first words were me was just his very first words were John I love you more right now than I John I love you more right now than I John I love you more right now than I have ever loved you and um I wasn't expecting that and you and um I wasn't expecting that and it's interesting that was many years ago it's interesting that was many years ago it's interesting that was many years ago I asked them over this last quite I asked them over this last quite I asked them over this last quite recently um why did you respond in that recently um why did you respond in that recently um why did you respond in that way i' never asked Rick that question way i' never asked Rick that question way i' never asked Rick that question until quite recently but what what what until quite recently but what what what until quite recently but what what what inside you prompted you to say that to

inside you prompted you to say that to inside you prompted you to say that to me and he talked about how I'm I'm a me and he talked about how I'm I'm a me and he talked about how I'm I'm a three on the anagram so image management three on the anagram so image management three on the anagram so image management and wanting to look smart and wanting to and wanting to look smart and wanting to and wanting to look smart and wanting to you know appear better than I am and to you know appear better than I am and to you know appear better than I am and to seem to be strong and impress impressive seem to be strong and impress impressive seem to be strong and impress impressive is it just leaks out of me and so of is it just leaks out of me and so of is it just leaks out of me and so of course even though he's my good friend course even though he's my good friend course even though he's my good friend that will get in the way of our that will get in the way of our that will get in the way of our closeness and so my walking through this closeness and so my walking through this closeness and so my walking through this exercise with exercise with exercise with him was the most real I had ever been him was the most real I had ever been him was the most real I had ever been with with with him and and uh uh the Paradox of you him and and uh uh the Paradox of you him and and uh uh the Paradox of you know my being afraid because I think I know my being afraid because I think I know my being afraid because I think I got to look good I gotta I gotta look got to look good I gotta I gotta look got to look good I gotta I gotta look smart that's how you love me that's how smart that's how you love me that's how smart that's how you love me that's how you'll think I'm special if I don't do you'll think I'm special if I don't do you'll think I'm special if I don't do those things I won't be those things I won't be those things I won't be special is precisely the stupid stuff special is precisely the stupid stuff special is precisely the stupid stuff that gets in the way of the love of the that gets in the way of the love of the that gets in the way of the love of the kingdom and so those those real deep kingdom and so those those real deep kingdom and so those those real deep truths um I can only be loved to the truths um I can only be loved to the truths um I can only be loved to the extent I'm known extent I'm known extent I'm known [Music] if I hide something from you you might if I hide something from you you might say John I love you but this is just the say John I love you but this is just the say John I love you but this is just the nature of the soul in its desire for nature of the soul in its desire for nature of the soul in its desire for wholeness my mind will say yeah but if wholeness my mind will say yeah but if wholeness my mind will say yeah but if you knew this about me you wouldn't say you knew this about me you wouldn't say you knew this about me you wouldn't say you love me and the darker and deeper it you love me and the darker and deeper it you love me and the darker and deeper it is the more it will get in the way of my is the more it will get in the way of my is the more it will get in the way of my feeling like you really love me when you feeling like you really love me when you feeling like you really love me when you don't know it so I can only be loved to

don't know it so I can only be loved to don't know it so I can only be loved to the extent that I'm known I can only be the extent that I'm known I can only be the extent that I'm known I can only be fully loved if I am fully known this is fully loved if I am fully known this is fully loved if I am fully known this is just a law of the soul that I was just a law of the soul that I was just a law of the soul that I was experiencing there I used to think you experiencing there I used to think you experiencing there I used to think you know it'll be great when we get to know it'll be great when we get to know it'll be great when we get to heaven because I won't have to worry heaven because I won't have to worry heaven because I won't have to worry about my sin anymore and nobody will about my sin anymore and nobody will about my sin anymore and nobody will ever know nobody will ever know well all ever know nobody will ever know well all ever know nobody will ever know well all it's all forgiven and now I think no it's all forgiven and now I think no it's all forgiven and now I think no healing doesn't happen that way healing healing doesn't happen that way healing healing doesn't happen that way healing knows when we all know everything about knows when we all know everything about knows when we all know everything about each other and we love each other each other and we love each other each other and we love each other knowing everything that's the only way knowing everything that's the only way knowing everything that's the only way that it can be healed and that's how that it can be healed and that's how that it can be healed and that's how spiritual Community Works When Love spiritual Community Works When Love spiritual Community Works When Love Comes precisely with the grace and the Comes precisely with the grace and the Comes precisely with the grace and the depth and the pain and the healing of depth and the pain and the healing of depth and the pain and the healing of full full full knowing and so it's very interesting knowing and so it's very interesting knowing and so it's very interesting Carrie uh in recovery circles folks will Carrie uh in recovery circles folks will Carrie uh in recovery circles folks will say that very often the desire for drink say that very often the desire for drink say that very often the desire for drink begins to diminish after step five begins to diminish after step five begins to diminish after step five huh when someone has experienced that huh when someone has experienced that huh when someone has experienced that deep uh very profound incredibly deep uh very profound incredibly deep uh very profound incredibly frightening and frightening and frightening and scary uh but deeply scary uh but deeply scary uh but deeply healing uh experience of just uh being healing uh experience of just uh being healing uh experience of just uh being as utterly honest you know just as utterly honest you know just as utterly honest you know just committed to I'm on a clean house uh as committed to I'm on a clean house uh as committed to I'm on a clean house uh as I'm able to be with another I'm able to be with another I'm able to be with another person and uh there's just enormous person and uh there's just enormous person and uh there's just enormous power and enormous healing that comes

power and enormous healing that comes power and enormous healing that comes and part of what's so sad is most people and part of what's so sad is most people and part of what's so sad is most people in most churches will never know that in most churches will never know that in most churches will never know that lots of people and lots of AA groups lots of people and lots of AA groups lots of people and lots of AA groups do and again this is what is taught in do and again this is what is taught in do and again this is what is taught in the scripture and it's not saying I have the scripture and it's not saying I have the scripture and it's not saying I have to do this or God is going to withhold to do this or God is going to withhold to do this or God is going to withhold forgiveness from me this is the nature forgiveness from me this is the nature forgiveness from me this is the nature of the way that healing Works in of the way that healing Works in of the way that healing Works in spiritual Community this is why spiritual Community this is why spiritual Community this is why hiddenness is such a hiddenness is such a hiddenness is such a uh a toxic Dynamic this is I think uh a toxic Dynamic this is I think uh a toxic Dynamic this is I think behind there's that weird story in the behind there's that weird story in the behind there's that weird story in the New Testament of ananas and Safa folks New Testament of ananas and Safa folks New Testament of ananas and Safa folks might remember that this couple where might remember that this couple where might remember that this couple where they they give some of their money they they they give some of their money they they they give some of their money they sell stuff and give some of it but they sell stuff and give some of it but they sell stuff and give some of it but they keep some of it back um but they lie keep some of it back um but they lie keep some of it back um but they lie about it they pretend like they're about it they pretend like they're about it they pretend like they're giving everything because they want to giving everything because they want to giving everything because they want to look good to everybody and then they look good to everybody and then they look good to everybody and then they both end up experiencing the Judgment of both end up experiencing the Judgment of both end up experiencing the Judgment of God and being killed and that used to God and being killed and that used to God and being killed and that used to look so severe to me I think what's look so severe to me I think what's look so severe to me I think what's going on now is in a that's like the going on now is in a that's like the going on now is in a that's like the second fall that's like Eden all over second fall that's like Eden all over second fall that's like Eden all over again because that new community had again because that new community had again because that new community had been experiencing the power of God that been experiencing the power of God that been experiencing the power of God that comes when people get real and this is comes when people get real and this is comes when people get real and this is the first moment that we read of the first moment that we read of the first moment that we read of hiddenness and deception and holding hiddenness and deception and holding hiddenness and deception and holding back in that new community and God can back in that new community and God can back in that new community and God can heal and forgive any sin as long as it's heal and forgive any sin as long as it's heal and forgive any sin as long as it's brought into the light but as soon as brought into the light but as soon as brought into the light but as soon as the community becomes a place of the community becomes a place of the community becomes a place of hiddenness and darkness that power of hiddenness and darkness that power of hiddenness and darkness that power of healing that flow the spirit gets cut

healing that flow the spirit gets cut healing that flow the spirit gets cut off by off by off by hiddenness and um that's what we're hiddenness and um that's what we're hiddenness and um that's what we're invited into that's the electric power invited into that's the electric power invited into that's the electric power of of forgiveness and healing in a human of of forgiveness and healing in a human of of forgiveness and healing in a human life um but it comes through community life um but it comes through community life um but it comes through community and through confession and I I just and through confession and I I just and through confession and I I just think uh most of us don't want to go think uh most of us don't want to go think uh most of us don't want to go there well I was gonna say there's a lot there well I was gonna say there's a lot there well I was gonna say there's a lot of fear probably a hunger and a fear at of fear probably a hunger and a fear at of fear probably a hunger and a fear at the same time yep one of the things that the same time yep one of the things that the same time yep one of the things that gets in the way the word that keeps gets in the way the word that keeps gets in the way the word that keeps popping up in my mind as as I hear you popping up in my mind as as I hear you popping up in my mind as as I hear you talk John is self-righteousness it's a talk John is self-righteousness it's a talk John is self-righteousness it's a problem for all of us it's a problem for problem for all of us it's a problem for problem for all of us it's a problem for me I think if you look at the church me I think if you look at the church me I think if you look at the church it's a big problem it's a big problem it's a big problem today any thoughts on how to overcome today any thoughts on how to overcome today any thoughts on how to overcome self-righteousness yeah um it's again a self-righteousness yeah um it's again a self-righteousness yeah um it's again a place where uh addiction is this tragic place where uh addiction is this tragic place where uh addiction is this tragic and wonderful gift it's very striking and wonderful gift it's very striking and wonderful gift it's very striking that um AA just tends not to produce that um AA just tends not to produce that um AA just tends not to produce Elder Elder Elder [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] Brothers um for a real good reason in Brothers um for a real good reason in Brothers um for a real good reason in the church we tend to produce that the church we tend to produce that the church we tend to produce that because I start looking at my devotional because I start looking at my devotional because I start looking at my devotional life and look how I'm praying or look life and look how I'm praying or look life and look how I'm praying or look how much I'm giv or you know Jesus would how much I'm giv or you know Jesus would how much I'm giv or you know Jesus would talk about the Pharisee and the tax talk about the Pharisee and the tax talk about the Pharisee and the tax collector and so what the addict knows collector and so what the addict knows collector and so what the addict knows is again the big book talks about this is again the big book talks about this is again the big book talks about this um that sobriety is a GI gift that is

um that sobriety is a GI gift that is um that sobriety is a GI gift that is contingent on maintaining spiritual contingent on maintaining spiritual contingent on maintaining spiritual hygiene one day at a hygiene one day at a hygiene one day at a time it's contingent on the maintenance time it's contingent on the maintenance time it's contingent on the maintenance of which means I got to run on Grace of which means I got to run on Grace of which means I got to run on Grace every every every day and the second I start to day and the second I start to day and the second I start to think uh there's any credit due to me think uh there's any credit due to me think uh there's any credit due to me look at me look at how well I'm doing look at me look at how well I'm doing look at me look at how well I'm doing how come other people can't be more like how come other people can't be more like how come other people can't be more like me I'm farther ahead than the can I me I'm farther ahead than the can I me I'm farther ahead than the can I start to do that my sobriety is in Peril start to do that my sobriety is in Peril start to do that my sobriety is in Peril and it's only in Humble dependence and it's only in Humble dependence and it's only in Humble dependence constant surrender that's where that constant surrender that's where that constant surrender that's where that third step made the decision to turn our third step made the decision to turn our third step made the decision to turn our lives and our Wills over to the care of lives and our Wills over to the care of lives and our Wills over to the care of God um it is built on surrender and it's God um it is built on surrender and it's God um it is built on surrender and it's interesting um you know years ago I interesting um you know years ago I interesting um you know years ago I remember listening to Dallas and we talk remember listening to Dallas and we talk remember listening to Dallas and we talk about the difference between trying to about the difference between trying to about the difference between trying to do something versus training to do do something versus training to do do something versus training to do something and so spiritual discipline something and so spiritual discipline something and so spiritual discipline are kind of a form of spiritual training are kind of a form of spiritual training are kind of a form of spiritual training and the principle of indirection and and the principle of indirection and and the principle of indirection and Solitude and silence and fasting and Solitude and silence and fasting and Solitude and silence and fasting and Sabbath um uh scripture memorization Sabbath um uh scripture memorization Sabbath um uh scripture memorization these are all practices that we can use these are all practices that we can use these are all practices that we can use to enter into spiritual training and to enter into spiritual training and to enter into spiritual training and that's a real good thing part of what it that's a real good thing part of what it that's a real good thing part of what it doesn't name yet doesn't name yet doesn't name yet is um I might use the power of is um I might use the power of is um I might use the power of training to serve my own ego if I'm a training to serve my own ego if I'm a training to serve my own ego if I'm a musici ition I can train to play the musici ition I can train to play the musici ition I can train to play the piano if I'm a weightlifter I can train

piano if I'm a weightlifter I can train piano if I'm a weightlifter I can train to try to have a great body but I'm to try to have a great body but I'm to try to have a great body but I'm doing that just uh you know to to feed doing that just uh you know to to feed doing that just uh you know to to feed my own ego that is not true with my own ego that is not true with my own ego that is not true with addiction with addiction I must begin addiction with addiction I must begin addiction with addiction I must begin with with with surrender turn my life and my will over surrender turn my life and my will over surrender turn my life and my will over to the care of God if I don't surrender to the care of God if I don't surrender to the care of God if I don't surrender and that means that prayer not my will and that means that prayer not my will and that means that prayer not my will but your will be but your will be but your will be done and that's the beginning of sanity done and that's the beginning of sanity done and that's the beginning of sanity and spiritual life but it's every day and spiritual life but it's every day and spiritual life but it's every day not my will but yours be done so not my will but yours be done so not my will but yours be done so humility runs all through the 12 humility runs all through the 12 humility runs all through the 12 steps and um uh after I've done that steps and um uh after I've done that steps and um uh after I've done that inventory to uh admit to another person inventory to uh admit to another person inventory to uh admit to another person that's a deeply humbling that's a deeply humbling that's a deeply humbling thing um and then out of that process I thing um and then out of that process I thing um and then out of that process I make a list of my shortcomings and make a list of my shortcomings and make a list of my shortcomings and that's humbling and then I humbly we that's humbling and then I humbly we that's humbling and then I humbly we humbly asked God not just asked we humbly asked God not just asked we humbly asked God not just asked we humbly humbly humbly asked and then and then as we go on and asked and then and then as we go on and asked and then and then as we go on and make this a part of a daily life doing make this a part of a daily life doing make this a part of a daily life doing spot checks so like okay where you know spot checks so like okay where you know spot checks so like okay where you know where was I impatient with somebody where was I impatient with somebody where was I impatient with somebody today where I I gotta ask forgiveness of today where I I gotta ask forgiveness of today where I I gotta ask forgiveness of someone um someone um someone um so yes the the problem of so yes the the problem of so yes the the problem of self-righteousness is always an self-righteousness is always an self-righteousness is always an indication indication indication that I have moved away from that humble

that I have moved away from that humble that I have moved away from that humble dependence of surrender and living one dependence of surrender and living one dependence of surrender and living one day at a time and um uh uh it's an day at a time and um uh uh it's an day at a time and um uh uh it's an indicator that I and real possibly the indicator that I and real possibly the indicator that I and real possibly the community that I'm living in because our community that I'm living in because our community that I'm living in because our community can often kind of community can often kind of community can often kind of glorify spiritual Warriors or people glorify spiritual Warriors or people glorify spiritual Warriors or people that we think of as real that we think of as real that we think of as real spiritual um and again in AA it's just spiritual um and again in AA it's just spiritual um and again in AA it's just the hard reality that that arrogance the hard reality that that arrogance the hard reality that that arrogance Pride judgmentalism self-righteousness Pride judgmentalism self-righteousness Pride judgmentalism self-righteousness will always lead to a relapse and more will always lead to a relapse and more will always lead to a relapse and more drinking and death so that that strange drinking and death so that that strange drinking and death so that that strange painful gift of addiction brings a painful gift of addiction brings a painful gift of addiction brings a self-corrective factor into play that in self-corrective factor into play that in self-corrective factor into play that in the church we just have to be a little the church we just have to be a little the church we just have to be a little bit more intentional about well and that bit more intentional about well and that bit more intentional about well and that goes to my my next question which is goes to my my next question which is goes to my my next question which is okay I think we all see the gap between okay I think we all see the gap between okay I think we all see the gap between our experience of church and what you our experience of church and what you our experience of church and what you describe of AA describe of AA describe of AA how do we bridge the gap how do we how do we bridge the gap how do we how do we bridge the gap how do we become more like what the scriptures become more like what the scriptures become more like what the scriptures intended us to be uh that has that kind intended us to be uh that has that kind intended us to be uh that has that kind of vulnerability confession humility of vulnerability confession humility of vulnerability confession humility dependence dependence dependence desperation that we preach about but desperation that we preach about but desperation that we preach about but don't don't don't live live live yeah um you know I I do think to some yeah um you know I I do think to some yeah um you know I I do think to some extent um to some extent Carrie that's extent um to some extent Carrie that's extent um to some extent Carrie that's something that we are not in control of something that we are not in control of something that we are not in control of and although it's frustrating and hard and although it's frustrating and hard and although it's frustrating and hard it's probably a good thing that we're it's probably a good thing that we're it's probably a good thing that we're not in control of not in control of not in control of it and uh God periodically throughout

it and uh God periodically throughout it and uh God periodically throughout times brings times brings times brings Seasons um Seasons um Seasons um where the power of a desperately hungry where the power of a desperately hungry where the power of a desperately hungry Community is Community is Community is reawakened and so you know supremely reawakened and so you know supremely reawakened and so you know supremely with Jesus when he was on Earth and with Jesus when he was on Earth and with Jesus when he was on Earth and people saw him this I got to have that people saw him this I got to have that people saw him this I got to have that so then okay well follow me and then so then okay well follow me and then so then okay well follow me and then acts two community and then that gets acts two community and then that gets acts two community and then that gets diluted as more and more people become diluted as more and more people become diluted as more and more people become Christians so by the time of Constantine Christians so by the time of Constantine Christians so by the time of Constantine most of the Roman Empire is a Christian most of the Roman Empire is a Christian most of the Roman Empire is a Christian but then it's just become I believe in but then it's just become I believe in but then it's just become I believe in the Divinity of Jesus so uh you have the Divinity of Jesus so uh you have the Divinity of Jesus so uh you have some people who go off into the some people who go off into the some people who go off into the desert and they say there's got to be desert and they say there's got to be desert and they say there's got to be more power in another way of life and more power in another way of life and more power in another way of life and they find a way of life and Benedict and they find a way of life and Benedict and they find a way of life and Benedict and the rule of Benedict or the rule of the rule of Benedict or the rule of the rule of Benedict or the rule of Augustine there's another way of life Augustine there's another way of life Augustine there's another way of life that gets found and and then that gets found and and then that gets found and and then periodically with Francis of aisi or periodically with Francis of aisi or periodically with Francis of aisi or with John Wesley or with Dietrich with John Wesley or with Dietrich with John Wesley or with Dietrich bonhoff in Nazi Germany or with AA in bonhoff in Nazi Germany or with AA in bonhoff in Nazi Germany or with AA in the 12 Steps it gets discovered um so in the 12 Steps it gets discovered um so in the 12 Steps it gets discovered um so in some ways um it's a gift of God and a some ways um it's a gift of God and a some ways um it's a gift of God and a process that none of us can engineer or process that none of us can engineer or process that none of us can engineer or control um and and we just have to control um and and we just have to control um and and we just have to recognize it's probably a good thing um recognize it's probably a good thing um recognize it's probably a good thing um I do think for sure for any one of I do think for sure for any one of I do think for sure for any one of us um the place to begin is just in my us um the place to begin is just in my us um the place to begin is just in my own life yeah and uh with my own own life yeah and uh with my own own life yeah and uh with my own surrender and my own willingness to sit

surrender and my own willingness to sit surrender and my own willingness to sit in places of pain and need and in places of pain and need and in places of pain and need and dependence and to the extent that I'm dependence and to the extent that I'm dependence and to the extent that I'm not experiencing that saying God I'm not experiencing that saying God I'm not experiencing that saying God I'm willing would you please help me to see willing would you please help me to see willing would you please help me to see how much I need you would you please how much I need you would you please how much I need you would you please help me would you lead me to a person or help me would you lead me to a person or help me would you lead me to a person or a group of people who can help me see a group of people who can help me see a group of people who can help me see your experience that maybe try you know your experience that maybe try you know your experience that maybe try you know AA they have open meetings go to a AA they have open meetings go to a AA they have open meetings go to a couple meetings and see what that's like couple meetings and see what that's like couple meetings and see what that's like uh or look for people in your life who uh or look for people in your life who uh or look for people in your life who are desperate for are desperate for are desperate for God you know very often people who are God you know very often people who are God you know very often people who are in pain have that kind of desperate need in pain have that kind of desperate need in pain have that kind of desperate need for him and I can meet with them there for him and I can meet with them there for him and I can meet with them there and begin to work through that you know and begin to work through that you know and begin to work through that you know first step and next step and third step first step and next step and third step first step and next step and third step there so start with my own life and uh there so start with my own life and uh there so start with my own life and uh walk through that step of walk through that step of walk through that step of self-examination and then through that self-examination and then through that self-examination and then through that step step of confession with somebody step step of confession with somebody step step of confession with somebody else and then begin to do ministry out else and then begin to do ministry out else and then begin to do ministry out of that of that of that reality and as I'm doing Ministry you reality and as I'm doing Ministry you reality and as I'm doing Ministry you know talk to everybody preach to know talk to everybody preach to know talk to everybody preach to everybody uh but look in particular for everybody uh but look in particular for everybody uh but look in particular for folks who are desperately hungry in that folks who are desperately hungry in that folks who are desperately hungry in that way and have a disproportionate amount way and have a disproportionate amount way and have a disproportionate amount of time and energy and of time and energy and of time and energy and conversation um with those people conversation um with those people conversation um with those people recognizing that's probably where we're recognizing that's probably where we're recognizing that's probably where we're going to find the power going to find the power going to find the power well fortunately for all of us this is well fortunately for all of us this is well fortunately for all of us this is in a book called steps and uh John Mark in a book called steps and uh John Mark in a book called steps and uh John Mark comr wrote forward and called it one of

comr wrote forward and called it one of comr wrote forward and called it one of the best books he has ever read period the best books he has ever read period the best books he has ever read period which is really high praise coming from which is really high praise coming from which is really high praise coming from John Mark because I think he's read all John Mark because I think he's read all John Mark because I think he's read all the books I don't know John I think I the books I don't know John I think I the books I don't know John I think I think John Mark has come close to that think John Mark has come close to that think John Mark has come close to that um John I want to thank you so much for um John I want to thank you so much for um John I want to thank you so much for writing this for thinking I know you've writing this for thinking I know you've writing this for thinking I know you've been working on this literally for years been working on this literally for years been working on this literally for years anything else you want to tell us about anything else you want to tell us about anything else you want to tell us about your project this latest project that your project this latest project that your project this latest project that you've been involved you've been involved you've been involved in um you know another of the um in um you know another of the um in um you know another of the um manifold uh sayings that a will use AA manifold uh sayings that a will use AA manifold uh sayings that a will use AA will use sometimes because churches are will use sometimes because churches are will use sometimes because churches are often placed that hosts AA meetings AA often placed that hosts AA meetings AA often placed that hosts AA meetings AA meetings really did they really did grow meetings really did they really did grow meetings really did they really did grow out of the church so that connection is out of the church so that connection is out of the church so that connection is not not not coincidental um but usually they meet coincidental um but usually they meet coincidental um but usually they meet downstairs in churches when churches downstairs in churches when churches downstairs in churches when churches have or have lovely Sanctuary stained have or have lovely Sanctuary stained have or have lovely Sanctuary stained glass that was too nice they would meet glass that was too nice they would meet glass that was too nice they would meet on cheap metal folding chairs with bad on cheap metal folding chairs with bad on cheap metal folding chairs with bad coffee and stale cookies and cigarettes coffee and stale cookies and cigarettes coffee and stale cookies and cigarettes if it's an Episcopal church and um so if it's an Episcopal church and um so if it's an Episcopal church and um so one of the sayings in AA is when you one of the sayings in AA is when you one of the sayings in AA is when you come into a church you can go upstairs come into a church you can go upstairs come into a church you can go upstairs and hear about miracles or you can come and hear about miracles or you can come and hear about miracles or you can come downstairs and see downstairs and see downstairs and see them and my hope and hunger for all of them and my hope and hunger for all of them and my hope and hunger for all of us is um that the church could be as God us is um that the church could be as God us is um that the church could be as God intends and wants a place where we're intends and wants a place where we're intends and wants a place where we're seeing them uh because we're seeing them uh because we're seeing them uh because we're experiencing them and we are them and um experiencing them and we are them and um experiencing them and we are them and um so that's my hope and prayer and my hope

so that's my hope and prayer and my hope so that's my hope and prayer and my hope for this book as well is that it could for this book as well is that it could for this book as well is that it could be a little tool in that direction wow be a little tool in that direction wow be a little tool in that direction wow so it's available everywhere and John um so it's available everywhere and John um so it's available everywhere and John um you mentioned become new so people can you mentioned become new so people can you mentioned become new so people can find you on YouTube these days that's find you on YouTube these days that's find you on YouTube these days that's probably where you're most active isn't probably where you're most active isn't probably where you're most active isn't it yeah I think if they just Google it yeah I think if they just Google it yeah I think if they just Google becom new.com I think that would get becom new.com I think that would get becom new.com I think that would get them there excellent well I think I them there excellent well I think I them there excellent well I think I might think a lot more about being so might think a lot more about being so might think a lot more about being so desperate in an airport trying to get desperate in an airport trying to get desperate in an airport trying to get out and not really caring uh that level out and not really caring uh that level out and not really caring uh that level of of of desperation is unique in my life and desperation is unique in my life and desperation is unique in my life and probably much more needed I think probably much more needed I think probably much more needed I think everybody would be better for it can I everybody would be better for it can I everybody would be better for it can I say one more word about that you can say one more word about that you can say one more word about that you can edit this out if it would take to long edit this out if it would take to long edit this out if it would take to long you go ahead you go ahead uh but it's you go ahead you go ahead uh but it's you go ahead you go ahead uh but it's just such a vivid image it is Dallas just such a vivid image it is Dallas just such a vivid image it is Dallas would talk sometimes about a verse that would talk sometimes about a verse that would talk sometimes about a verse that was kind of a oddl looking verse lots of was kind of a oddl looking verse lots of was kind of a oddl looking verse lots of us in the Old King James I think it was us in the Old King James I think it was us in the Old King James I think it was translated the kingdom of God comes by translated the kingdom of God comes by translated the kingdom of God comes by violence and violent men take it by violence and violent men take it by violence and violent men take it by force yes and there have been various force yes and there have been various force yes and there have been various pictures of that but his suggestion and pictures of that but his suggestion and pictures of that but his suggestion and you might try this on you might try this on you might try this on is uh the garbage can in the airport is is uh the garbage can in the airport is is uh the garbage can in the airport is available to those who seek it with available to those who seek it with available to those who seek it with violence who have a violent need and violence who have a violent need and violence who have a violent need and violent men take it by force the violent violent men take it by force the violent violent men take it by force the violent person says I've got to find that person says I've got to find that person says I've got to find that garbage can I don't care who's in front garbage can I don't care who's in front garbage can I don't care who's in front of it I don't care how big that crowd is of it I don't care how big that crowd is of it I don't care how big that crowd is I don't care what it looks like I will I don't care what it looks like I will I don't care what it looks like I will do whatever I have I will knock my do whatever I have I will knock my do whatever I have I will knock my grandmother over to get a hold of that

grandmother over to get a hold of that grandmother over to get a hold of that garbage can and Jesus was saying that's garbage can and Jesus was saying that's garbage can and Jesus was saying that's the kingdom when somebody gets it they the kingdom when somebody gets it they the kingdom when somebody gets it they say I gotta have this I want this more say I gotta have this I want this more say I gotta have this I want this more than anything else in the world and I than anything else in the world and I than anything else in the world and I don't care what I have to do I don't don't care what I have to do I don't don't care what I have to do I don't care what I have to give up I don't have care what I have to give up I don't have care what I have to give up I don't have to care where I have to go or how I have to care where I have to go or how I have to care where I have to go or how I have to be humiliated I must have this and to be humiliated I must have this and to be humiliated I must have this and it's that way so yep go for the garbage it's that way so yep go for the garbage it's that way so yep go for the garbage can I'm GNA I'm gonna take that you know can I'm GNA I'm gonna take that you know can I'm GNA I'm gonna take that you know and honestly I think today's the first and honestly I think today's the first and honestly I think today's the first day that was three days ago for two days day that was three days ago for two days day that was three days ago for two days my ribs I mean it was about six hours of my ribs I mean it was about six hours of my ribs I mean it was about six hours of just violence in the worst way it was just violence in the worst way it was just violence in the worst way it was the most extreme case I've ever had my the most extreme case I've ever had my the most extreme case I've ever had my ribs were sore for days afterwards just ribs were sore for days afterwards just ribs were sore for days afterwards just from the violence of purging whatever from the violence of purging whatever from the violence of purging whatever was in my body so I'll I'll take that was in my body so I'll I'll take that was in my body so I'll I'll take that interpretation John thank you what a interpretation John thank you what a interpretation John thank you what a don't think we've ever concluded a don't think we've ever concluded a don't think we've ever concluded a podcast episode with that kind of podcast episode with that kind of podcast episode with that kind of metaphor before first time for metaphor before first time for metaphor before first time for everything the book is called steps everything the book is called steps everything the book is called steps please get it and John until next time please get it and John until next time please get it and John until next time thank you so much thanks Carrie