Eugene Peterson: Why Most Leaders Fail at This One Thing

Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, we're in part two of this little thing we're in part two of this little thing we're in part two of this little thing I'm trying called required listening. We I'm trying called required listening. We I'm trying called required listening. We have so many of these episodes over the have so many of these episodes over the have so many of these episodes over the last 11 years in the archives last 11 years in the archives last 11 years in the archives and I am just for 3 weeks picking and I am just for 3 weeks picking and I am just for 3 weeks picking some of my faves and what you have fed some of my faves and what you have fed some of my faves and what you have fed back on as your [music] listener faves. back on as your [music] listener faves. back on as your [music] listener faves. I've gotten a lot of mail, a lot of I've gotten a lot of mail, a lot of I've gotten a lot of mail, a lot of personal conversations about [music] personal conversations about [music] personal conversations about [music] these episodes. Last time we heard from these episodes. Last time we heard from these episodes. Last time we heard from Gordon MacDonald. Go back and listen to Gordon MacDonald. Go back and listen to Gordon MacDonald. Go back and listen to that. It was so rich. that. It was so rich. that. It was so rich. And then about a year before he died and And then about a year before he died and And then about a year before he died and literally a few weeks before he retired literally a few weeks before he retired literally a few weeks before he retired from public life, I had the privilege of from public life, I had the privilege of from public life, I had the privilege of a 30-minute phone call with [music] a 30-minute phone call with [music] a 30-minute phone call with [music] Eugene Peterson. So we don't have video Eugene Peterson. So we don't have video Eugene Peterson. So we don't have video for this. If you're watching this for this. If you're watching this for this. If you're watching this on YouTube, um well, just enjoy the on YouTube, um well, just enjoy the on YouTube, um well, just enjoy the voice. We had a great conversation from voice. We had a great conversation from voice. We had a great conversation from his home his home his home in Montana. And one of my most prized in Montana. And one of my most prized in Montana. And one of my most prized possessions, in fact, I'm going to get possessions, in fact, I'm going to get possessions, in fact, I'm going to get it for you. Hang on just a minute. So I'm going to take you, if you're So I'm going to take you, if you're watching, into one of my most favorite watching, into one of my most favorite watching, into one of my most favorite possessions. Uh I got a a a book from possessions. Uh I got a a a book from possessions. Uh I got a a a book from the publisher. This was his last the publisher. This was his last the publisher. This was his last published book while he was alive.

published book while he was alive. published book while he was alive. And then a few weeks after doing this And then a few weeks after doing this And then a few weeks after doing this interview, I got this letter in the interview, I got this letter in the interview, I got this letter in the mail. I'm going to get emotional. mail. I'm going to get emotional. mail. I'm going to get emotional. And then a very short note, handwritten And then a very short note, handwritten And then a very short note, handwritten note note note from Eugene and Jan Peterson. from Eugene and Jan Peterson. from Eugene and Jan Peterson. And And And he said, this is uh less than a year he said, this is uh less than a year he said, this is uh less than a year before he died, a few months after he before he died, a few months after he before he died, a few months after he retired from public life. Dear Carey, retired from public life. Dear Carey, retired from public life. Dear Carey, your heartwarming note and body-warming your heartwarming note and body-warming your heartwarming note and body-warming jacket, I gave him a jacket, both gave jacket, I gave him a jacket, both gave jacket, I gave him a jacket, both gave me great comfort. You did the interview me great comfort. You did the interview me great comfort. You did the interview the way interviews are supposed to be the way interviews are supposed to be the way interviews are supposed to be done. You stuck to the questions that done. You stuck to the questions that done. You stuck to the questions that stuck to the subject and the purpose of stuck to the subject and the purpose of stuck to the subject and the purpose of this interview. I want to thank you for this interview. I want to thank you for this interview. I want to thank you for that. My wife is actually writing this that. My wife is actually writing this that. My wife is actually writing this thank you note for me. thank you note for me. thank you note for me. I'm not back to normal quite yet. Thank I'm not back to normal quite yet. Thank I'm not back to normal quite yet. Thank you once again, Carey. Sincerely, and you once again, Carey. Sincerely, and you once again, Carey. Sincerely, and then it was signed by Eugene H. then it was signed by Eugene H. then it was signed by Eugene H. Peterson. Peterson. Peterson. So I'm hanging onto that one for a long, So I'm hanging onto that one for a long, So I'm hanging onto that one for a long, long time. But, you know what? I think long time. But, you know what? I think long time. But, you know what? I think it's one of those things and I don't it's one of those things and I don't it's one of those things and I don't want to get into the details of what want to get into the details of what want to get into the details of what happened to Eugene and why he retired happened to Eugene and why he retired happened to Eugene and why he retired from public life, but from public life, but from public life, but sometimes you just got to stick to the sometimes you just got to stick to the sometimes you just got to stick to the script and it does amazing things. So, script and it does amazing things. So, script and it does amazing things. So, uh anyway, uh anyway, uh anyway, with that said, we talk about why he with that said, we talk about why he with that said, we talk about why he created The Message, the challenges of created The Message, the challenges of created The Message, the challenges of leading through the 1960s. He has some leading through the 1960s. He has some leading through the 1960s. He has some really interesting things to say about really interesting things to say about really interesting things to say about that. And on The Rhythms of a Reflective that. And on The Rhythms of a Reflective that. And on The Rhythms of a Reflective Life, here's my conversation with Eugene Life, here's my conversation with Eugene Life, here's my conversation with Eugene Peterson. Well, it is an unbelievable Peterson. Well, it is an unbelievable Peterson. Well, it is an unbelievable thrill to have Eugene Peterson with me thrill to have Eugene Peterson with me thrill to have Eugene Peterson with me today. Eugene, welcome to the podcast.

today. Eugene, welcome to the podcast. today. Eugene, welcome to the podcast. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> It's great to be able to interview you >> It's great to be able to interview you >> It's great to be able to interview you as I shared with you and and with as I shared with you and and with as I shared with you and and with listeners, you have been leaving listeners, you have been leaving listeners, you have been leaving incredibly rich deposits in my life for incredibly rich deposits in my life for incredibly rich deposits in my life for decades now. And what a thrill to be decades now. And what a thrill to be decades now. And what a thrill to be able to do this. So, you got a brand new able to do this. So, you got a brand new able to do this. So, you got a brand new book out. It's called As Kingfisher's book out. It's called As Kingfisher's book out. It's called As Kingfisher's Catch Fire. Catch Fire. Catch Fire. And you you start in the introduction by And you you start in the introduction by And you you start in the introduction by saying that when you were a young church saying that when you were a young church saying that when you were a young church planting pastor in 1962, planting pastor in 1962, planting pastor in 1962, you found a growing dissonance in your you found a growing dissonance in your you found a growing dissonance in your ministry. And so, you labored what you ministry. And so, you labored what you ministry. And so, you labored what you you labored to find what you called you labored to find what you called you labored to find what you called congruence. Tell us about what you were congruence. Tell us about what you were congruence. Tell us about what you were experiencing in the early days of your experiencing in the early days of your experiencing in the early days of your leadership and how you moved through it. leadership and how you moved through it. leadership and how you moved through it. >> Well, I think what I was experiencing is >> Well, I think what I was experiencing is >> Well, I think what I was experiencing is a kind of an innocence. a kind of an innocence. a kind of an innocence. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Which which >> Which which >> Which which was kind of boy, getting into these kind was kind of boy, getting into these kind was kind of boy, getting into these kind >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> Um >> Um >> Um my presbytery my presbytery my presbytery asked me to start a new church. asked me to start a new church. asked me to start a new church. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And >> And >> And I never had a I'd never been a pastor I never had a I'd never been a pastor I never had a I'd never been a pastor before. before. before. Uh but he but they This was a in a small Uh but he but they This was a in a small Uh but he but they This was a in a small little town in near Baltimore, um Bel little town in near Baltimore, um Bel little town in near Baltimore, um Bel Air. And uh it's kind was kind of a Air. And uh it's kind was kind of a Air. And uh it's kind was kind of a suburb of um suburb of um suburb of um of Baltimore. And I had many people in of Baltimore. And I had many people in of Baltimore. And I had many people in my congregation. It was a small my congregation. It was a small my congregation. It was a small congregation, just 50 60 or so. And uh congregation, just 50 60 or so. And uh congregation, just 50 60 or so. And uh And then there were riots that were And then there were riots that were And then there were riots that were starting and there was uh starting and there was uh starting and there was uh >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> and a lot of violence and going on in >> and a lot of violence and going on in >> and a lot of violence and going on in Baltimore. And my my parishioners were Baltimore. And my my parishioners were Baltimore. And my my parishioners were just getting all upset about everything.

just getting all upset about everything. just getting all upset about everything. They were buying guns and I had one man They were buying guns and I had one man They were buying guns and I had one man who was a very mild man and he bought a who was a very mild man and he bought a who was a very mild man and he bought a bought a 14-in bought a 14-in bought a 14-in uh um uh um uh um wrench and he had it in his wrench and he had it in his wrench and he had it in his beside himself and as he went into town beside himself and as he went into town beside himself and as he went into town to make sure he can had something to make sure he can had something to make sure he can had something protecting protecting protecting protecting him. protecting him. protecting him. >> Wow. Wow. >> Wow. Wow. >> Wow. Wow. >> And uh >> And uh >> And uh So um So um So um the uh the uh the uh And then my congregation uh they were And then my congregation uh they were And then my congregation uh they were getting all you know mad about all this. getting all you know mad about all this. getting all you know mad about all this. And uh so I got mad. I said And uh so I got mad. I said And uh so I got mad. I said >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> I said to them, "Have you never Have you >> I said to them, "Have you never Have you >> I said to them, "Have you never Have you ever read You know you're Presbyterians. ever read You know you're Presbyterians. ever read You know you're Presbyterians. Have you ever read anything uh Have you ever read anything uh Have you ever read anything uh in Galatians? Well, Galatians was Paul's in Galatians? Well, Galatians was Paul's in Galatians? Well, Galatians was Paul's previous letter." previous letter." previous letter." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I was getting angry and uh so I just >> And I was getting angry and uh so I just >> And I was getting angry and uh so I just told him, "No, we can't do this. We're told him, "No, we can't do this. We're told him, "No, we can't do this. We're free. We free. We free. We we can't just hammer ourselves in by we can't just hammer ourselves in by we can't just hammer ourselves in by other people's bad attitudes." And um other people's bad attitudes." And um other people's bad attitudes." And um So So So uh it didn't make any difference. uh it didn't make any difference. uh it didn't make any difference. >> It didn't. >> It didn't. >> It didn't. It felt [laughter] like failure.

It felt [laughter] like failure. It felt [laughter] like failure. >> So I >> So I >> So I I So I thought, "Well, I get together a I So I thought, "Well, I get together a I So I thought, "Well, I get together a bunch of men bunch of men bunch of men mostly the men who work in Baltimore and mostly the men who work in Baltimore and mostly the men who work in Baltimore and uh we'll just study uh we'll just study uh we'll just study study Galatians and find out what Paul study Galatians and find out what Paul study Galatians and find out what Paul said about this. You're free and you said about this. You're free and you said about this. You're free and you can't do this." And um can't do this." And um can't do this." And um I had about 16 men I had about 16 men I had about 16 men in that room and I I always fixed a pot in that room and I I always fixed a pot in that room and I I always fixed a pot of coffee for them and when they came in of coffee for them and when they came in of coffee for them and when they came in and um and um and um and I you've got to realize that I'm an and I you've got to realize that I'm an and I you've got to realize that I'm an I was emotionally I distraught. I was emotionally I distraught. I was emotionally I distraught. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they were they were just >> And they were they were just >> And they were they were just afraid of what was going afraid afraid afraid of what was going afraid afraid afraid of what was going afraid afraid of what was going on in Baltimore. And of what was going on in Baltimore. And of what was going on in Baltimore. And uh I was afraid of what was going on in uh I was afraid of what was going on in uh I was afraid of what was going on in their lives. their lives. their lives. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And uh >> And uh >> And uh >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> So >> So >> So I started on Galatians and I started on Galatians and I started on Galatians and uh uh uh and uh it just you know I could tell it and uh it just you know I could tell it and uh it just you know I could tell it didn't make any difference. They were didn't make any difference. They were didn't make any difference. They were just stirring coffee just stirring coffee just stirring coffee sugar in their coffee and that kind of sugar in their coffee and that kind of sugar in their coffee and that kind of thing and um so uh thing and um so uh thing and um so uh I left.

I left. I left. I went back home after church, told my I went back home after church, told my I went back home after church, told my wife that it was they were just paying wife that it was they were just paying wife that it was they were just paying me attention. me attention. me attention. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And she said, "Well." And then I said, >> And she said, "Well." And then I said, >> And she said, "Well." And then I said, "I I think I'll teach them Greek. If I "I I think I'll teach them Greek. If I "I I think I'll teach them Greek. If I taught them Greek, they'd get it." taught them Greek, they'd get it." taught them Greek, they'd get it." She said, "That would really empty the She said, "That would really empty the She said, "That would really empty the place out fast." place out fast." place out fast." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So instead of um teaching them Greek, I >> So instead of um teaching them Greek, I >> So instead of um teaching them Greek, I thought, "Well, I'd I'd been studying uh thought, "Well, I'd I'd been studying uh thought, "Well, I'd I'd been studying uh Semitic and Greek uh for Semitic and Greek uh for Semitic and Greek uh for for a PhD. And so I had these these for a PhD. And so I had these these for a PhD. And so I had these these other these biblical languages pretty other these biblical languages pretty other these biblical languages pretty much um much um much um I was pretty conversant with them. So I I was pretty conversant with them. So I I was pretty conversant with them. So I thought, "Well, I'll take I'll take thought, "Well, I'll take I'll take thought, "Well, I'll take I'll take these languages and I'll translate them these languages and I'll translate them these languages and I'll translate them into vernacular Baltimore into vernacular Baltimore into vernacular Baltimore vernacular." vernacular." vernacular." >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And uh and see what happens. So I took a >> And uh and see what happens. So I took a >> And uh and see what happens. So I took a sheet of paper every week and um sheet of paper every week and um sheet of paper every week and um and translated what I would think of as and translated what I would think of as and translated what I would think of as American vernacular. American vernacular. American vernacular. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> In their language. And uh the week after >> In their language. And uh the week after >> In their language. And uh the week after I did that, as I was cleaning up I did that, as I was cleaning up I did that, as I was cleaning up afterwards, all of the coffee cups were afterwards, all of the coffee cups were afterwards, all of the coffee cups were cold. They did cold. They did cold. They did >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> They were just infatuated by this new >> They were just infatuated by this new >> They were just infatuated by this new language language language >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> never heard before. >> never heard before. >> never heard before. And uh so that's what started it. And uh And uh so that's what started it. And uh And uh so that's what started it. And uh and so I just kept doing that and kept and so I just kept doing that and kept and so I just kept doing that and kept doing that and uh finally the riots doing that and uh finally the riots doing that and uh finally the riots stopped, but I didn't stop because I stopped, but I didn't stop because I stopped, but I didn't stop because I thought, "Well, I've got a whole thought, "Well, I've got a whole thought, "Well, I've got a whole congregation of people who doesn't know congregation of people who doesn't know congregation of people who doesn't know the language of the biblical language." the language of the biblical language." the language of the biblical language." [clears throat] And uh so that's how it [clears throat] And uh so that's how it [clears throat] And uh so that's how it started. started. started. >> That's amazing. So that was the origin >> That's amazing. So that was the origin >> That's amazing. So that was the origin of the message, was it? of the message, was it? of the message, was it? >> That's for the origin of the message. >> That's for the origin of the message. >> That's for the origin of the message. That's right. That's right. That's right. >> In the middle of the turmoil of the >> In the middle of the turmoil of the >> In the middle of the turmoil of the 1960s, as a young church planting pastor 1960s, as a young church planting pastor 1960s, as a young church planting pastor in Bel Air, Maryland, that's I that is in Bel Air, Maryland, that's I that is in Bel Air, Maryland, that's I that is amazing. And you just it I think I I amazing. And you just it I think I I amazing. And you just it I think I I read in an interview did with someone read in an interview did with someone read in an interview did with someone else that it was like 20 years, over 20 else that it was like 20 years, over 20 else that it was like 20 years, over 20 years to write the message, maybe longer years to write the message, maybe longer years to write the message, maybe longer than that? than that? than that? >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Wow. Wow. What a labor of love and 35 >> Wow. Wow. What a labor of love and 35 >> Wow. Wow. What a labor of love and 35 books as well, which is which is books as well, which is which is books as well, which is which is exceptional. On that note, you see exceptional. On that note, you see exceptional. On that note, you see things so differently than so many things so differently than so many things so differently than so many writers, thinkers, and theologians, and writers, thinkers, and theologians, and writers, thinkers, and theologians, and that's one of the things that's always that's one of the things that's always that's one of the things that's always been a gift to me. What are some of the been a gift to me. What are some of the been a gift to me. What are some of the habits and the disciplines and the habits and the disciplines and the habits and the disciplines and the rhythms that you have practiced over the rhythms that you have practiced over the rhythms that you have practiced over the course of your life and ministry that course of your life and ministry that course of your life and ministry that you think helped you hone the you think helped you hone the you think helped you hone the perspective that God has given you on perspective that God has given you on perspective that God has given you on life?

life? life? >> Well, I think >> Well, I think >> Well, I think it's really it's a complex question, it's really it's a complex question, it's really it's a complex question, really. really. really. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um books of the Bible has been important >> Um books of the Bible has been important >> Um books of the Bible has been important to me. And to me. And to me. And and I you know, I sought for books that and I you know, I sought for books that and I you know, I sought for books that gave me some in- inspiration or some gave me some in- inspiration or some gave me some in- inspiration or some guidance. guidance. guidance. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And so I you know, I never read the so I you know, I never read the so I you know, I never read the newspaper newspaper newspaper very you know, very superficially. very you know, very superficially. very you know, very superficially. >> Huh. And >> Huh. And >> Huh. And yeah, they yeah, they yeah, they and the newspaper wasn't a very big help and the newspaper wasn't a very big help and the newspaper wasn't a very big help in understanding God and Jesus. in understanding God and Jesus. in understanding God and Jesus. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Um >> Um >> Um and so I think but I also I schooled and so I think but I also I schooled and so I think but I also I schooled myself in some of the myself in some of the myself in some of the what I realized were the great preachers what I realized were the great preachers what I realized were the great preachers and and pastors in the past. and and pastors in the past. and and pastors in the past. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And Alexander Whyte was the first one that I Alexander Whyte was the first one that I Alexander Whyte was the first one that I discovered. He was discovered. He was discovered. He was He was a pastor in Scotland He was a pastor in Scotland He was a pastor in Scotland in the in the well, 150 years ago, maybe in the in the well, 150 years ago, maybe in the in the well, 150 years ago, maybe more. more. more. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> And >> And >> And and he was he was a great storyteller and he was he was a great storyteller and he was he was a great storyteller and and and had a wonderful way of using words in had a wonderful way of using words in had a wonderful way of using words in the gospel.

the gospel. the gospel. >> How did you just How how did you find >> How did you just How how did you find >> How did you just How how did you find him? How did you That a name I'm not him? How did you That a name I'm not him? How did you That a name I'm not even familiar with. I'm not sure a lot even familiar with. I'm not sure a lot even familiar with. I'm not sure a lot of people would be. Why Why Alexander of people would be. Why Why Alexander of people would be. Why Why Alexander Whyte? I'm just curious. Whyte? I'm just curious. Whyte? I'm just curious. >> I was reading. >> I was reading. >> I was reading. Reading in the library and I found him. Reading in the library and I found him. Reading in the library and I found him. >> Huh? >> Huh? >> Huh? >> And he he was the most popular pet >> And he he was the most popular pet >> And he he was the most popular pet preacher in preacher in preacher in in Scotland for in Scotland for in Scotland for a number of years. And so I just Well, a number of years. And so I just Well, a number of years. And so I just Well, let me find out what he's doing. let me find out what he's doing. let me find out what he's doing. And he's a He was a great storyteller, And he's a He was a great storyteller, And he's a He was a great storyteller, but not but not but not not not a Lewis, not just being funny. not not a Lewis, not just being funny. not not a Lewis, not just being funny. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But his students >> But his students >> But his students just they they flocked to his church, just they they flocked to his church, just they they flocked to his church, the ones in the seminary. And the ones in the seminary. And the ones in the seminary. And one of them one day one of them one day one of them one day I think this is a wonderful story. I think this is a wonderful story. I think this is a wonderful story. Said, Said, Said, "Dr. Whyte, what's the most important "Dr. Whyte, what's the most important "Dr. Whyte, what's the most important thing for a pastor to do?" And he paused thing for a pastor to do?" And he paused thing for a pastor to do?" And he paused for a minute and he said, "Take a long for a minute and he said, "Take a long for a minute and he said, "Take a long vacation and relieve yourself as often vacation and relieve yourself as often vacation and relieve yourself as often as possible." as possible." as possible." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's pretty good.

>> That's pretty good. >> That's pretty good. >> As the leading pastor in Scotland. >> As the leading pastor in Scotland. >> As the leading pastor in Scotland. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Take a long vacation and relieve >> Take a long vacation and relieve >> Take a long vacation and relieve yourself as often as possible. yourself as often as possible. yourself as often as possible. That's great advice. Okay, so you love That's great advice. Okay, so you love That's great advice. Okay, so you love to read. That's one of the habits and to read. That's one of the habits and to read. That's one of the habits and and and disciplines. You've been a and and disciplines. You've been a and and disciplines. You've been a lifelong reader. Any other I mean, you lifelong reader. Any other I mean, you lifelong reader. Any other I mean, you you talk about is it Paul Tournier and you talk about is it Paul Tournier and you talk about is it Paul Tournier and others that really influenced you? Who others that really influenced you? Who others that really influenced you? Who Who are a few of the others that you Who are a few of the others that you Who are a few of the others that you would say, would say, would say, you know, they're on the top shelf of my you know, they're on the top shelf of my you know, they're on the top shelf of my library? library? library? >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh well, Tournier was was one of them. He well, Tournier was was one of them. He well, Tournier was was one of them. He wasn't a pastor, pastor, but um wasn't a pastor, pastor, but um wasn't a pastor, pastor, but um I I think I I think I I think uh and my my contemporary of mine was uh and my my contemporary of mine was uh and my my contemporary of mine was George Buttrick. George Buttrick. George Buttrick. >> Oh, yes. Yeah. >> Oh, yes. Yeah. >> Oh, yes. Yeah. >> When I went to seminary, >> When I went to seminary, >> When I went to seminary, I wasn't planning on being a pastor, but I wasn't planning on being a pastor, but I wasn't planning on being a pastor, but I was my seminary forced me to work in I was my seminary forced me to work in I was my seminary forced me to work in the church. the church. the church. So I just I had to do it. It was So I just I had to do it. It was So I just I had to do it. It was >> What what were you planning on being if >> What what were you planning on being if >> What what were you planning on being if you weren't going to be a pastor? you weren't going to be a pastor? you weren't going to be a pastor? >> A professor of languages. >> A professor of languages. >> A professor of languages. >> Got you. >> Got you. >> Got you. >> And >> And >> And so, so, so, I was assigned to a to a church.

I was assigned to a to a church. I was assigned to a to a church. Well, his church. Well, his church. Well, his church. Presbyterian church in Presbyterian church in Presbyterian church in the center of the center of the center of the city. the city. the city. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And I'd never heard preaching like that >> And I'd never heard preaching like that >> And I'd never heard preaching like that before. before. before. >> With David Buttrick, yeah. >> With David Buttrick, yeah. >> With David Buttrick, yeah. >> With Buttrick. >> With Buttrick. >> With Buttrick. >> Or or George, sorry. David's his son. >> Or or George, sorry. David's his son. >> Or or George, sorry. David's his son. Yeah, George Buttrick. Yeah. Yeah, George Buttrick. Yeah. Yeah, George Buttrick. Yeah. >> And >> And >> And so, I was I wasn't intended to do attend so, I was I wasn't intended to do attend so, I was I wasn't intended to do attend church. I was They made me the coach of church. I was They made me the coach of church. I was They made me the coach of the basketball team. And so, I thought the basketball team. And so, I thought the basketball team. And so, I thought that would take care of my my that would take care of my my that would take care of my my obligations. I went First Saturday I was there, I I went First Saturday I was there, I heard him preach and he There's nothing heard him preach and he There's nothing heard him preach and he There's nothing dramatic about him. dramatic about him. dramatic about him. But he is so clear and so kind of But he is so clear and so kind of But he is so clear and so kind of matter-of-fact. matter-of-fact. matter-of-fact. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I later found out that >> I later found out that >> I later found out that Who's the guy who He writes novels, Who's the guy who He writes novels, Who's the guy who He writes novels, Buechner. Buechner. Buechner. >> Oh, yeah, Frederick Buechner. Yep. >> Oh, yeah, Frederick Buechner. Yep. >> Oh, yeah, Frederick Buechner. Yep. >> Frederick Buechner. >> Frederick Buechner. >> Frederick Buechner. >> Also Presbyterian, I think. >> Also Presbyterian, I think. >> Also Presbyterian, I think. >> Right. And so, I knew about him and had >> Right. And so, I knew about him and had >> Right. And so, I knew about him and had read most of his books. And read most of his books. And read most of his books. And but he was there in church every Sunday but he was there in church every Sunday but he was there in church every Sunday with the man I was with the man I was with the man I was >> Buttrick. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Buttrick. Yeah. Yeah. >> Buttrick. Yeah. Yeah. >> Buttrick, yeah. So, >> Buttrick, yeah. So, >> Buttrick, yeah. So, I let Buechner be. I didn't know him. I I let Buechner be. I didn't know him. I I let Buechner be. I didn't know him. I never met him. never met him. never met him. But I But I But I I kind of let him guide me in terms of I kind of let him guide me in terms of I kind of let him guide me in terms of writers that are worth reading for writers that are worth reading for writers that are worth reading for people who are interested in in life and people who are interested in in life and people who are interested in in life and just seeing things as truth of life. And just seeing things as truth of life. And just seeing things as truth of life. And so, he was he became an important part so, he was he became an important part so, he was he became an important part of my reading life. of my reading life. of my reading life. And And And so, I just kind of went from one person so, I just kind of went from one person so, I just kind of went from one person to another. I never went to good to another. I never went to good to another. I never went to good schools, to tell you the truth. schools, to tell you the truth. schools, to tell you the truth. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> You might want to cut that out of the on >> You might want to cut that out of the on >> You might want to cut that out of the on interview. interview. interview. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, it wasn't the school so much, it was >> So, it wasn't the school so much, it was >> So, it wasn't the school so much, it was self-learning that self-learning that self-learning that >> It was self-learning, yeah. >> It was self-learning, yeah. >> It was self-learning, yeah. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But I would you know, I picked up along >> But I would you know, I picked up along >> But I would you know, I picked up along the way I picked up people who who knew the way I picked up people who who knew the way I picked up people who who knew a lot more than I did. a lot more than I did. a lot more than I did. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And uh I so I I just kind of picked them >> And uh I so I I just kind of picked them >> And uh I so I I just kind of picked them for my faculty. And uh for my faculty. And uh for my faculty. And uh >> That's great. So, was it like this big >> That's great. So, was it like this big >> That's great. So, was it like this big program or anything? It was just one led program or anything? It was just one led program or anything? It was just one led to another led to another led to another to another led to another led to another to another led to another led to another and you never stopped. and you never stopped. and you never stopped. >> That's right. That's right.

>> That's right. That's right. >> That's right. That's right. >> One of the things I've heard you write >> One of the things I've heard you write >> One of the things I've heard you write about um in the past or I've I've read about um in the past or I've I've read about um in the past or I've I've read from you in the past is your Sabbath from you in the past is your Sabbath from you in the past is your Sabbath rhythm has been really important for you rhythm has been really important for you rhythm has been really important for you and your wife, Janice. And can you can and your wife, Janice. And can you can and your wife, Janice. And can you can you tell us a little bit about your you tell us a little bit about your you tell us a little bit about your Sabbath rhythm, what you've done with it Sabbath rhythm, what you've done with it Sabbath rhythm, what you've done with it over the years, how you practiced it in over the years, how you practiced it in over the years, how you practiced it in ministry, and what it looks like these ministry, and what it looks like these ministry, and what it looks like these days? days? days? >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh now I can't think of his name. He was a now I can't think of his name. He was a now I can't think of his name. He was a He was a He was a He was a He was a Quaker. He was a Quaker. He was a Quaker. >> Quaker, okay. >> Quaker, okay. >> Quaker, okay. >> And Jan and I I'll think of it hopefully >> And Jan and I I'll think of it hopefully >> And Jan and I I'll think of it hopefully when as I talk. when as I talk. when as I talk. Uh Jan and I we were pretty new in this Uh Jan and I we were pretty new in this Uh Jan and I we were pretty new in this new church new church new church >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> development stage. And so we went to a >> development stage. And so we went to a >> development stage. And so we went to a a retreat in the Poconos. a retreat in the Poconos. a retreat in the Poconos. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> And >> And >> And and this man was there leading the and this man was there leading the and this man was there leading the retreat. retreat. retreat. Uh Uh Uh maybe you'll think of him. But anyway, maybe you'll think of him. But anyway, maybe you'll think of him. But anyway, he he he We're about 25 of us there, We're about 25 of us there, We're about 25 of us there, 30 maybe. And 30 maybe. And 30 maybe. And he told us that this was going to be a he told us that this was going to be a he told us that this was going to be a silent retreat. silent retreat. silent retreat. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Well, that just about destroyed my my >> Well, that just about destroyed my my >> Well, that just about destroyed my my wife.

wife. wife. She didn't [laughter] like to be silent She didn't [laughter] like to be silent She didn't [laughter] like to be silent for 2 days, 3 days. for 2 days, 3 days. for 2 days, 3 days. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> And >> And >> And so he started out so he started out so he started out I mean, I think I was fortunate in I mean, I think I was fortunate in I mean, I think I was fortunate in getting in finding people I didn't know getting in finding people I didn't know getting in finding people I didn't know know anything about. know anything about. know anything about. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Said he had a friend who was when he was >> Said he had a friend who was when he was >> Said he had a friend who was when he was growing up who was growing up who was growing up who was specialized in men's retreats. And when specialized in men's retreats. And when specialized in men's retreats. And when he got people together in their retreat he got people together in their retreat he got people together in their retreat place, he made them open up their place, he made them open up their place, he made them open up their suitcases and he confiscated all the suitcases and he confiscated all the suitcases and he confiscated all the whiskey. whiskey. whiskey. And he said, "You can have it back when And he said, "You can have it back when And he said, "You can have it back when we when you leave if you still want it." we when you leave if you still want it." we when you leave if you still want it." >> This episode is brought to you by my >> This episode is brought to you by my >> This episode is brought to you by my friends at Global Christian Relief. For friends at Global Christian Relief. For friends at Global Christian Relief. For a lot of us, the persecuted church can a lot of us, the persecuted church can a lot of us, the persecuted church can feel pretty distant. But, the global feel pretty distant. But, the global feel pretty distant. But, the global church isn't an idea, it's not a church isn't an idea, it's not a church isn't an idea, it's not a concept. It's a family. And when one concept. It's a family. And when one concept. It's a family. And when one part of the body suffers, we don't get part of the body suffers, we don't get part of the body suffers, we don't get to stay spectators, we're called to to stay spectators, we're called to to stay spectators, we're called to action. So, I want to tell you about a action. So, I want to tell you about a action. So, I want to tell you about a non-profit you should know about, Global non-profit you should know about, Global non-profit you should know about, Global Christian Relief. This organization is Christian Relief. This organization is Christian Relief. This organization is led by Brian Orm. Brian's been a friend led by Brian Orm. Brian's been a friend led by Brian Orm. Brian's been a friend for over a decade, and I'm thankful for for over a decade, and I'm thankful for for over a decade, and I'm thankful for the way GCR because he's helping our the way GCR because he's helping our the way GCR because he's helping our persecuted brothers and sisters in persecuted brothers and sisters in persecuted brothers and sisters in Christ know that they're not alone. GCR Christ know that they're not alone. GCR Christ know that they're not alone. GCR supports our global church family in supports our global church family in supports our global church family in places where following Jesus carries a places where following Jesus carries a places where following Jesus carries a real cost, places like Nigeria, real cost, places like Nigeria, real cost, places like Nigeria, Pakistan, Syria, India, Iran, and many Pakistan, Syria, India, Iran, and many Pakistan, Syria, India, Iran, and many more. GCR brings scripture to people more. GCR brings scripture to people more. GCR brings scripture to people where it's restricted. It provides where it's restricted. It provides where it's restricted. It provides emergency relief when crisis hits, and

emergency relief when crisis hits, and emergency relief when crisis hits, and supports the church long-term so it can supports the church long-term so it can supports the church long-term so it can remain and grow stronger. remain and grow stronger. remain and grow stronger. When you support the global church, When you support the global church, When you support the global church, you're not just supporting a cause, you're not just supporting a cause, you're not just supporting a cause, you're standing with your brothers and you're standing with your brothers and you're standing with your brothers and sisters, with your family. Global sisters, with your family. Global sisters, with your family. Global Christian Relief is doing some really Christian Relief is doing some really Christian Relief is doing some really impactful work. I would love for you to impactful work. I would love for you to impactful work. I would love for you to check them out. All you have to do is go check them out. All you have to do is go check them out. All you have to do is go to gcrelief.org. to gcrelief.org. to gcrelief.org. That's gcrelief.org. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, >> So, >> So, so silence and no whiskey. so silence and no whiskey. so silence and no whiskey. So, So, So, anyway, he called us to end end end end anyway, he called us to end end end end anyway, he called us to end end end end end end of the silence of the retreat, end end of the silence of the retreat, end end of the silence of the retreat, and and and so for a couple of hours in the morning so for a couple of hours in the morning so for a couple of hours in the morning and a couple of hours in the afternoon, and a couple of hours in the afternoon, and a couple of hours in the afternoon, we were just in silence. we were just in silence. we were just in silence. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And we weren't allowed to we weren't we're we weren't allowed to we weren't we're we weren't allowed to we weren't we're not permitted to talk to anybody, and not permitted to talk to anybody, and not permitted to talk to anybody, and and one of the and one of the and one of the surprises to me is how good the food surprises to me is how good the food surprises to me is how good the food was. was. was. It's just you know, you you begin to see It's just you know, you you begin to see It's just you know, you you begin to see the food is beautiful, and the food is beautiful, and the food is beautiful, and the aromas were perfect, and so the aromas were perfect, and so the aromas were perfect, and so it was kind of an introduction to a way it was kind of an introduction to a way it was kind of an introduction to a way of life which was not of life which was not of life which was not was not supported by was not supported by was not supported by reason or reason or reason or except to take empty your suitcases except to take empty your suitcases except to take empty your suitcases before you went on retreat.

before you went on retreat. before you went on retreat. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, it was just a different pace and a >> So, it was just a different pace and a >> So, it was just a different pace and a different rhythm that really got you different rhythm that really got you different rhythm that really got you >> and a different and a very different >> and a different and a very different >> and a different and a very different trusting to silence. trusting to silence. trusting to silence. And [clears throat] And [clears throat] And [clears throat] I never I grew up a Pentecostal and I never I grew up a Pentecostal and I never I grew up a Pentecostal and silence was not one of their big things. silence was not one of their big things. silence was not one of their big things. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, Pentecostal who became a >> So, Pentecostal who became a >> So, Pentecostal who became a Presbyterian who became almost monastic. Presbyterian who became almost monastic. Presbyterian who became almost monastic. I heard you say at one point that you I heard you say at one point that you I heard you say at one point that you were a monk in your head, right? In some were a monk in your head, right? In some were a monk in your head, right? In some ways. ways. ways. >> That's right, yeah. >> That's right, yeah. >> That's right, yeah. So, anyway, So, anyway, So, anyway, that started it. that started it. that started it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we were there for 3 days and we left >> And we were there for 3 days and we left >> And we were there for 3 days and we left different. And when we got home, we different. And when we got home, we different. And when we got home, we decided that we would keep a Monday decided that we would keep a Monday decided that we would keep a Monday Sabbath. Every Monday would be a Sabbath. Every Monday would be a Sabbath. Every Monday would be a Sabbath. When the kids we all our kids Sabbath. When the kids we all our kids Sabbath. When the kids we all our kids that point were in school and that point were in school and that point were in school and so after we fixed their lunches and sent so after we fixed their lunches and sent so after we fixed their lunches and sent them off on the bus, them off on the bus, them off on the bus, we went to This was in Baltimore now and we went to This was in Baltimore now and we went to This was in Baltimore now and >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> The environs of Baltimore are just >> The environs of Baltimore are just >> The environs of Baltimore are just beautiful and with their beautiful and with their beautiful and with their rivers and brooks and rivers and brooks and rivers and brooks and meadows.

meadows. meadows. So, we found we had plenty of room to So, we found we had plenty of room to So, we found we had plenty of room to walk in and and so we'd go to the some walk in and and so we'd go to the some walk in and and so we'd go to the some creek usually river creek usually river creek usually river >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and >> and >> and we already packed our lunches and we and we already packed our lunches and we and we already packed our lunches and we and we'd just walk for 3 hours. we'd just walk for 3 hours. we'd just walk for 3 hours. And And And sometimes it was hard to not say sometimes it was hard to not say sometimes it was hard to not say something, but we we did pretty well. something, but we we did pretty well. something, but we we did pretty well. And then we'd stop and have lunch, pray And then we'd stop and have lunch, pray And then we'd stop and have lunch, pray and and and and then talk. and then talk. and then talk. Talk about the birds we'd seen. We were Talk about the birds we'd seen. We were Talk about the birds we'd seen. We were very avid bird birders. very avid bird birders. very avid bird birders. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And And And And and talk about Sunday Sunday just passed and talk about Sunday Sunday just passed and talk about Sunday Sunday just passed and we did that for years and years and and we did that for years and years and and we did that for years and years and years years years while the kids were still in school. while the kids were still in school. while the kids were still in school. And they they they grew to appreciate And they they they grew to appreciate And they they they grew to appreciate themselves. They they didn't have to do themselves. They they didn't have to do themselves. They they didn't have to do anything on Mondays. They have to make anything on Mondays. They have to make anything on Mondays. They have to make their bed. their bed. their bed. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That was the biggest thing right there. >> That was the biggest thing right there. >> That was the biggest thing right there. >> Yeah, I'm sure that's pretty exciting to >> Yeah, I'm sure that's pretty exciting to >> Yeah, I'm sure that's pretty exciting to an 8-year-old. Yeah. an 8-year-old. Yeah. an 8-year-old. Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> And >> And >> And we did that for a long time and and then we did that for a long time and and then we did that for a long time and and then when the kids left when the kids left when the kids left we we we revised that a little bit we we we revised that a little bit we we we revised that a little bit because the the because the the because the the our our congregation was had been our our congregation was had been our our congregation was had been growing and growing and growing and >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> we kind of rearranged our silent things. >> we kind of rearranged our silent things. >> we kind of rearranged our silent things. So but anyway, that's how it started and So but anyway, that's how it started and So but anyway, that's how it started and it's becoming it was kind of a habitual it's becoming it was kind of a habitual it's becoming it was kind of a habitual thing to it. You know, we we didn't thing to it. You know, we we didn't thing to it. You know, we we didn't we didn't have to sit down and figure we didn't have to sit down and figure we didn't have to sit down and figure out what we're going to do. It become out what we're going to do. It become out what we're going to do. It become kind of our the habit of our life but kind of our the habit of our life but kind of our the habit of our life but that by that time and so it it really that by that time and so it it really that by that time and so it it really did something to our whole lives our did something to our whole lives our did something to our whole lives our married life our pastoral life and married life our pastoral life and married life our pastoral life and people in the congregation started people in the congregation started people in the congregation started noticing I never preached a sermon on noticing I never preached a sermon on noticing I never preached a sermon on Sabbath keeping. Sabbath keeping. Sabbath keeping. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They they were observing and doing >> They they were observing and doing >> They they were observing and doing things and wasn't long before things and wasn't long before things and wasn't long before I don't want to exaggerate but maybe I don't want to exaggerate but maybe I don't want to exaggerate but maybe 10 to 10 to the congregation was keeping 10 to 10 to the congregation was keeping 10 to 10 to the congregation was keeping was keeping the Sabbath also and was keeping the Sabbath also and was keeping the Sabbath also and and it you know, it picked up people and it you know, it picked up people and it you know, it picked up people watched what other people were doing and watched what other people were doing and watched what other people were doing and so I think it really changed my pastoral so I think it really changed my pastoral so I think it really changed my pastoral life life life my relationship with my with my my relationship with my with my my relationship with my with my congregation because one of the things I congregation because one of the things I congregation because one of the things I I think I just picked up from I think I just picked up from I think I just picked up from my my Quaker friend my my Quaker friend my my Quaker friend >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> was >> was >> was you don't you don't push the gospel down you don't you don't push the gospel down you don't you don't push the gospel down anybody's throat. anybody's throat. anybody's throat. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Are you >> Are you >> Are you you acted out yourself and if you'll you acted out yourself and if you'll you acted out yourself and if you'll notice they they could if they don't notice they they could if they don't notice they they could if they don't they don't. And so, there was they don't. And so, there was they don't. And so, there was [clears throat] kind of a reversal of of [clears throat] kind of a reversal of of [clears throat] kind of a reversal of of technique. Instead of as a preacher technique. Instead of as a preacher technique. Instead of as a preacher telling people what to do, telling people what to do, telling people what to do, letting them watch what you're doing. letting them watch what you're doing. letting them watch what you're doing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And uh >> And uh >> And uh so, that's that's just changed the whole so, that's that's just changed the whole so, that's that's just changed the whole tenor of my pastoral life. tenor of my pastoral life. tenor of my pastoral life. >> I can sense that. I sense that even in >> I can sense that. I sense that even in >> I can sense that. I sense that even in your voice and your in your rhythm. Can your voice and your in your rhythm. Can your voice and your in your rhythm. Can I ask you as a as a very prolific I ask you as a as a very prolific I ask you as a as a very prolific writer, um writer, um writer, um how did did that impact or influence how did did that impact or influence how did did that impact or influence your writing at all? Like that that kind your writing at all? Like that that kind your writing at all? Like that that kind of rhythm, that space in your life, do of rhythm, that space in your life, do of rhythm, that space in your life, do you think that your ability to write you think that your ability to write you think that your ability to write that often and that well was somehow that often and that well was somehow that often and that well was somehow related to your Sabbath rhythm? related to your Sabbath rhythm? related to your Sabbath rhythm? >> Uh yes, it was, but it was not >> Uh yes, it was, but it was not >> Uh yes, it was, but it was not conscious. conscious. conscious. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh I uh I uh I uh I was writing I was reading people who I I was writing I was reading people who I I was writing I was reading people who I admired and respect Maybe I should just admired and respect Maybe I should just admired and respect Maybe I should just say respected. And uh so, no, I I don't say respected. And uh so, no, I I don't say respected. And uh so, no, I I don't think I think I think I changed Well, I changed because I was changed Well, I changed because I was changed Well, I changed because I was right reading people that I admired. And right reading people that I admired. And right reading people that I admired. And um but I didn't copy them. They were you um but I didn't copy them. They were you um but I didn't copy them. They were you know, you you can't copy somebody when know, you you can't copy somebody when know, you you can't copy somebody when you're being creative.

you're being creative. you're being creative. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And and uh so, that that just kept >> And and uh so, that that just kept >> And and uh so, that that just kept things going for me. things going for me. things going for me. >> Mhm. So, it was more reading other >> Mhm. So, it was more reading other >> Mhm. So, it was more reading other writers that got your pen moving. Is writers that got your pen moving. Is writers that got your pen moving. Is that it? that it? that it? >> That's right. Yes. Yeah. And picking the >> That's right. Yes. Yeah. And picking the >> That's right. Yes. Yeah. And picking the right right writers. right right writers. right right writers. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> The uh mega church people didn't pay me, >> The uh mega church people didn't pay me, >> The uh mega church people didn't pay me, so I just ignored them. so I just ignored them. so I just ignored them. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And did did uh did the slow work of of >> And did did uh did the slow work of of >> And did did uh did the slow work of of writing and thinking and praying? Um writing and thinking and praying? Um writing and thinking and praying? Um Speaking of leaders, I can't believe Speaking of leaders, I can't believe Speaking of leaders, I can't believe we're coming to the home stretch already we're coming to the home stretch already we're coming to the home stretch already and I'm so grateful for the time you and I'm so grateful for the time you and I'm so grateful for the time you made available. We've got tens of made available. We've got tens of made available. We've got tens of thousands of leaders listening and thousands of leaders listening and thousands of leaders listening and thousands of young pastors. So, I've thousands of young pastors. So, I've thousands of young pastors. So, I've seen interviews that were shot on video seen interviews that were shot on video seen interviews that were shot on video at your place in Montana. Do you still at your place in Montana. Do you still at your place in Montana. Do you still have that place? It's absolutely have that place? It's absolutely have that place? It's absolutely gorgeous from what I've seen. gorgeous from what I've seen. gorgeous from what I've seen. >> Oh, yes, I do. >> Oh, yes, I do. >> Oh, yes, I do. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And we're retired now. >> And we're retired now. >> And we're retired now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I don't I don't have a congregation. >> So, I don't I don't have a congregation. >> So, I don't I don't have a congregation. >> Right. Right. Yeah, 25 26 years retired. >> Right. Right. Yeah, 25 26 years retired. >> Right. Right. Yeah, 25 26 years retired. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I want you to imagine that >> Yeah. So, I want you to imagine that >> Yeah. So, I want you to imagine that you're sitting down with a young pastor, you're sitting down with a young pastor, you're sitting down with a young pastor, young senior pastor, young senior young senior pastor, young senior young senior pastor, young senior leader. He or she is with you leader. He or she is with you leader. He or she is with you at your kitchen table, at your place in at your kitchen table, at your place in at your kitchen table, at your place in Montana, and you're going to give them Montana, and you're going to give them Montana, and you're going to give them two or three nuggets of here's what you two or three nuggets of here's what you two or three nuggets of here's what you need to keep in mind as a young leader need to keep in mind as a young leader need to keep in mind as a young leader in the church today. What would you tell in the church today. What would you tell in the church today. What would you tell them?

them? them? >> Um I don't give nuggets. >> Um I don't give nuggets. >> Um I don't give nuggets. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's great. >> That's great. >> That's great. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I have a lot of uh young pastors who I have a lot of uh young pastors who I have a lot of uh young pastors who come and come and come and stay here. stay here. stay here. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um we used to have them stay overnight, >> Um we used to have them stay overnight, >> Um we used to have them stay overnight, but it that got too much. but it that got too much. but it that got too much. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> But, we have some great bed and >> But, we have some great bed and >> But, we have some great bed and breakfast near here, and so I just send breakfast near here, and so I just send breakfast near here, and so I just send her down there. But, um her down there. But, um her down there. But, um no, I I think I no, I I think I no, I I think I I think I start by by asking questions. I think I start by by asking questions. I think I start by by asking questions. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> How do you [clears throat] like what >> How do you [clears throat] like what >> How do you [clears throat] like what you're doing, and what disappoints you, you're doing, and what disappoints you, you're doing, and what disappoints you, and and and uh and they you know, people are smart. uh and they you know, people are smart. uh and they you know, people are smart. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If they're not cluttered up by other >> If they're not cluttered up by other >> If they're not cluttered up by other stuff, and if you're mimicking somebody stuff, and if you're mimicking somebody stuff, and if you're mimicking somebody else, then it's you're you're not a else, then it's you're you're not a else, then it's you're you're not a writer or not a preacher. writer or not a preacher. writer or not a preacher. So, I think the the years now that I've So, I think the the years now that I've So, I think the the years now that I've not had a congregation, I've been doing not had a congregation, I've been doing not had a congregation, I've been doing as much pastor work as I ever did, but as much pastor work as I ever did, but as much pastor work as I ever did, but it wasn't it wasn't an obvious thing. It it wasn't it wasn't an obvious thing. It it wasn't it wasn't an obvious thing. It was was was >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So, you start by asking questions. >> So, you start by asking questions. >> So, you start by asking questions. >> Yeah, just asking questions and >> Yeah, just asking questions and >> Yeah, just asking questions and commenting and commenting on their commenting and commenting on their commenting and commenting on their answers, and yeah.

answers, and yeah. answers, and yeah. >> That's a good way to learn. >> That's a good way to learn. >> That's a good way to learn. >> Yeah. It's the way I learned. I learned >> Yeah. It's the way I learned. I learned >> Yeah. It's the way I learned. I learned from Buttrick, who didn't tell me what from Buttrick, who didn't tell me what from Buttrick, who didn't tell me what to do. to do. to do. I learned from um I learned from um I learned from um the guy in Scotland uh who did tell me the guy in Scotland uh who did tell me the guy in Scotland uh who did tell me what to do. what to do. what to do. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Andrew White, is that it? Yeah. >> Andrew White, is that it? Yeah. >> Andrew White, is that it? Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, so that's I think I was I was uh >> Yeah, so that's I think I was I was uh >> Yeah, so that's I think I was I was uh I was never a copier. I I was I was never a copier. I I was I was never a copier. I I was When I met people, I'd watch what they When I met people, I'd watch what they When I met people, I'd watch what they were doing, listen to them. Uh were doing, listen to them. Uh were doing, listen to them. Uh So, it's hard it's hard to know. I I So, it's hard it's hard to know. I I So, it's hard it's hard to know. I I think I was pretty self-taught in many think I was pretty self-taught in many think I was pretty self-taught in many ways. ways. ways. >> That's good to know. And well, you've >> That's good to know. And well, you've >> That's good to know. And well, you've you've literally taught millions through you've literally taught millions through you've literally taught millions through what you've done. I I've got to just what you've done. I I've got to just what you've done. I I've got to just once again personally say thank you. And once again personally say thank you. And once again personally say thank you. And And I think I can be so bold on behalf And I think I can be so bold on behalf And I think I can be so bold on behalf of all the leaders listening, church of all the leaders listening, church of all the leaders listening, church leaders listening. Thanks so much for an leaders listening. Thanks so much for an leaders listening. Thanks so much for an unbelievably rich unbelievably rich unbelievably rich um heritage and legacy. Your new book as um heritage and legacy. Your new book as um heritage and legacy. Your new book as Kingfisher's Catch Fire, a collection of Kingfisher's Catch Fire, a collection of Kingfisher's Catch Fire, a collection of 49 of your sermons, well worth reading. 49 of your sermons, well worth reading. 49 of your sermons, well worth reading. And I think there's a devotional coming And I think there's a devotional coming And I think there's a devotional coming out next year. Is that right? One more out next year. Is that right? One more out next year. Is that right? One more thing.

thing. thing. >> There is, yes. >> There is, yes. >> There is, yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, Eugene Peterson, thank >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, Eugene Peterson, thank >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, Eugene Peterson, thank you so much for being with us today. you so much for being with us today. you so much for being with us today. >> You're You're welcome. You've made it >> You're You're welcome. You've made it >> You're You're welcome. You've made it very easy for me. very easy for me. very easy for me. >> I remember being so nervous for that >> I remember being so nervous for that >> I remember being so nervous for that conversation. I was a couple years into conversation. I was a couple years into conversation. I was a couple years into the podcast and just being very nervous the podcast and just being very nervous the podcast and just being very nervous and uh and uh and uh But man, did I enjoy that conversation But man, did I enjoy that conversation But man, did I enjoy that conversation with Eugene. And I think about it often. with Eugene. And I think about it often. with Eugene. And I think about it often. That's why I put it in this mini That's why I put it in this mini That's why I put it in this mini required listening episode series that required listening episode series that required listening episode series that we're doing. We've got one more coming we're doing. We've got one more coming we're doing. We've got one more coming up. And next time on the podcast, the up. And next time on the podcast, the up. And next time on the podcast, the next episode we're going to drop is with next episode we're going to drop is with next episode we're going to drop is with his son Eric and his biographer Winn his son Eric and his biographer Winn his son Eric and his biographer Winn Collier. And we're going to talk about Collier. And we're going to talk about Collier. And we're going to talk about Eugene's life. So, you heard it from Eugene's life. So, you heard it from Eugene's life. So, you heard it from Eugene himself. Eugene himself. Eugene himself. Next time we're going to talk about Next time we're going to talk about Next time we're going to talk about Eugene's life. And what they see of it. Eugene's life. And what they see of it. Eugene's life. And what they see of it. And it's really powerful because Eric And it's really powerful because Eric And it's really powerful because Eric and and and his dad had a a rich but and and and his dad had a a rich but and and and his dad had a a rich but complex relationship. And we talk about complex relationship. And we talk about complex relationship. And we talk about some of the the the struggles that some of the the the struggles that some of the the the struggles that Eugene went through because it's easy to Eugene went through because it's easy to Eugene went through because it's easy to do hagiography, but Eugene was human as do hagiography, but Eugene was human as do hagiography, but Eugene was human as well. And uh so that's going to come up well. And uh so that's going to come up well. And uh so that's going to come up on our final installment of Required on our final installment of Required on our final installment of Required Listening this summer. Um we will have Listening this summer. Um we will have Listening this summer. Um we will have video for that one if you're watching on video for that one if you're watching on video for that one if you're watching on YouTube. But anyway, in case you are YouTube. But anyway, in case you are YouTube. But anyway, in case you are still being introduced to Eugene still being introduced to Eugene still being introduced to Eugene Peterson, he was an American pastor, Peterson, he was an American pastor, Peterson, he was an American pastor, scholar, and an author best known for scholar, and an author best known for scholar, and an author best known for The Message, but he had so many The Message, but he had so many The Message, but he had so many different books that he wrote that have different books that he wrote that have different books that he wrote that have formed me as well. And his biography, formed me as well. And his biography, formed me as well. And his biography, The Pastor, autobiography, so powerful.

The Pastor, autobiography, so powerful. The Pastor, autobiography, so powerful. So, next time we're going to talk to his So, next time we're going to talk to his So, next time we're going to talk to his son, Eric, on Required Listening, and son, Eric, on Required Listening, and son, Eric, on Required Listening, and his biographer, Winn Collier. If this his biographer, Winn Collier. If this his biographer, Winn Collier. If this episode was meaningful to you, please episode was meaningful to you, please episode was meaningful to you, please share it with a friend. That's how the share it with a friend. That's how the share it with a friend. That's how the word gets around, and we'll catch you word gets around, and we'll catch you word gets around, and we'll catch you next time on the podcast. I really hope next time on the podcast. I really hope next time on the podcast. I really hope this touched you, and that it helped you this touched you, and that it helped you this touched you, and that it helped you think about what growth barrier you're think about what growth barrier you're think about what growth barrier you're facing and how to scale through it. facing and how to scale through it. facing and how to scale through it. We'll catch you next time.