Money. Sex. Power. What almost tore this couple apart?

because he's maybe like a eight on the because he's maybe like a eight on the offensive scale that anything I've done offensive scale that anything I've done offensive scale that anything I've done sort of gets a broad brush pass. sort of gets a broad brush pass. sort of gets a broad brush pass. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. So glad you joined Podcast on YouTube. So glad you joined Podcast on YouTube. So glad you joined us. Hey, if you're new here, like, us. Hey, if you're new here, like, us. Hey, if you're new here, like, subscribe, leave a comment because we're subscribe, leave a comment because we're subscribe, leave a comment because we're going to talk about the backstory. In my going to talk about the backstory. In my going to talk about the backstory. In my last episode, I had Ashley Wooldridge last episode, I had Ashley Wooldridge last episode, I had Ashley Wooldridge on. He's lead pastor of Christ Church of on. He's lead pastor of Christ Church of on. He's lead pastor of Christ Church of the Valley, one of the fastest growing the Valley, one of the fastest growing the Valley, one of the fastest growing and largest churches in America today, and largest churches in America today, and largest churches in America today, over 50,000 people in attendance on the over 50,000 people in attendance on the over 50,000 people in attendance on the weekend. But today, we're going into the weekend. But today, we're going into the weekend. But today, we're going into the backstory. Ashley's back this time with backstory. Ashley's back this time with backstory. Ashley's back this time with his wife, Jamie. We're going to talk his wife, Jamie. We're going to talk his wife, Jamie. We're going to talk about being young. They were both about being young. They were both about being young. They were both working at Intel. working at Intel. working at Intel. Um what happens when you're fighting Um what happens when you're fighting Um what happens when you're fighting about money, sex, and power? about money, sex, and power? about money, sex, and power? Uh and then they're going to talk about Uh and then they're going to talk about Uh and then they're going to talk about how they radically transformed their how they radically transformed their how they radically transformed their marriage and went on to lead one of marriage and went on to lead one of marriage and went on to lead one of America's fastest growing churches. I America's fastest growing churches. I America's fastest growing churches. I think you're going to find this really think you're going to find this really think you're going to find this really fascinating. So, make sure you like, fascinating. So, make sure you like, fascinating. So, make sure you like, subscribe, leave a comment to join the subscribe, leave a comment to join the subscribe, leave a comment to join the conversation. We're going to dive right conversation. We're going to dive right conversation. We're going to dive right into it, but first a word from today's into it, but first a word from today's into it, but first a word from today's carefully selected partners, and then carefully selected partners, and then carefully selected partners, and then the interview. Today's episode is the interview. Today's episode is the interview. Today's episode is brought to you by Compassion. If you are brought to you by Compassion. If you are brought to you by Compassion. If you are in the scripture routinely, you're in the scripture routinely, you're in the scripture routinely, you're likely aware there's a significant likely aware there's a significant likely aware there's a significant emphasis on compassion as a core emphasis on compassion as a core emphasis on compassion as a core component of God's character. In fact, component of God's character. In fact, component of God's character. In fact, throughout the Bible, scripture throughout the Bible, scripture throughout the Bible, scripture describes God as compassionate, loving, describes God as compassionate, loving, describes God as compassionate, loving, gracious, slow to anger, abounding in gracious, slow to anger, abounding in gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. All the things we really desire love. All the things we really desire love. All the things we really desire that reflect God's nature. And as that reflect God's nature. And as that reflect God's nature. And as believer, scripture calls us to reflect believer, scripture calls us to reflect believer, scripture calls us to reflect that nature, living a life of that nature, living a life of that nature, living a life of gospel-driven kindness that is set apart gospel-driven kindness that is set apart gospel-driven kindness that is set apart from the normal operations of this from the normal operations of this from the normal operations of this world. So, as a pastor, I got to ask,

world. So, as a pastor, I got to ask, world. So, as a pastor, I got to ask, how is that going for you? And this how is that going for you? And this how is that going for you? And this summer, I want to encourage you to visit summer, I want to encourage you to visit summer, I want to encourage you to visit my friends at Compassion International my friends at Compassion International my friends at Compassion International to learn how you can grow your to learn how you can grow your to learn how you can grow your compassion today. Honestly, being compassion today. Honestly, being compassion today. Honestly, being involved in Compassion for the last involved in Compassion for the last involved in Compassion for the last decade plus has opened up like a piece decade plus has opened up like a piece decade plus has opened up like a piece of my heart when it comes to compassion of my heart when it comes to compassion of my heart when it comes to compassion that I didn't even know existed. When I that I didn't even know existed. When I that I didn't even know existed. When I meet my sponsored kids, when I'm on the meet my sponsored kids, when I'm on the meet my sponsored kids, when I'm on the ground seeing their work in local ground seeing their work in local ground seeing their work in local villages around the world, uh there's a villages around the world, uh there's a villages around the world, uh there's a part of my heart that comes alive that part of my heart that comes alive that part of my heart that comes alive that simply does not come alive at home. So, simply does not come alive at home. So, simply does not come alive at home. So, what are you doing about it? If you want what are you doing about it? If you want what are you doing about it? If you want to figure out how to grow your to figure out how to grow your to figure out how to grow your compassion today, you can find out more compassion today, you can find out more compassion today, you can find out more at compassion.com/carey. at compassion.com/carey. at compassion.com/carey. And today's episode is brought to you by And today's episode is brought to you by And today's episode is brought to you by Spire. Spire. Spire. Hey pastors, I've got something really Hey pastors, I've got something really Hey pastors, I've got something really exciting to share with you. The Spire exciting to share with you. The Spire exciting to share with you. The Spire conference is happening this September conference is happening this September conference is happening this September in Louisville, Kentucky. If you haven't in Louisville, Kentucky. If you haven't in Louisville, Kentucky. If you haven't been to Spire conference, you are in for been to Spire conference, you are in for been to Spire conference, you are in for a treat. And if you have, I've been a treat. And if you have, I've been a treat. And if you have, I've been there, you already know. This conference there, you already know. This conference there, you already know. This conference has some value for every single leader has some value for every single leader has some value for every single leader and role on your team, whether it's and role on your team, whether it's and role on your team, whether it's through the main message, the breakout through the main message, the breakout through the main message, the breakout sessions, or even just all the sessions, or even just all the sessions, or even just all the conversations that happen in the lobby.

conversations that happen in the lobby. conversations that happen in the lobby. Give your church staff a place to learn, Give your church staff a place to learn, Give your church staff a place to learn, grow, and build momentum together as you grow, and build momentum together as you grow, and build momentum together as you hear inspiring speakers like Max Lucado hear inspiring speakers like Max Lucado hear inspiring speakers like Max Lucado and Kyle Idleman. And you can hold some and Kyle Idleman. And you can hold some and Kyle Idleman. And you can hold some practical conversations that are really practical conversations that are really practical conversations that are really going to change the game for you. Walk going to change the game for you. Walk going to change the game for you. Walk away with some great insights. Use the away with some great insights. Use the away with some great insights. Use the code Carey, my name, c a r e y, you will code Carey, my name, c a r e y, you will code Carey, my name, c a r e y, you will get $50 off each ticket. So, to get all get $50 off each ticket. So, to get all get $50 off each ticket. So, to get all the details and to register, visit the details and to register, visit the details and to register, visit spireconference.gloo.com. spireconference.gloo.com. spireconference.gloo.com. That's s p i r e conference.gloo.com. All right, well, welcome back, Ashley, All right, well, welcome back, Ashley, and welcome, Jamie. First time we've and welcome, Jamie. First time we've and welcome, Jamie. First time we've ever done this where two back-to-back ever done this where two back-to-back ever done this where two back-to-back episodes. And I really wanted to sit episodes. And I really wanted to sit episodes. And I really wanted to sit down with you as a couple. Having down with you as a couple. Having down with you as a couple. Having unpacked a lot of CCV story, unpacked a lot of CCV story, unpacked a lot of CCV story, uh some of your story, Ashley. uh some of your story, Ashley. uh some of your story, Ashley. Uh I would love to know, two of you, did Uh I would love to know, two of you, did Uh I would love to know, two of you, did you meet at Intel or did you meet before you meet at Intel or did you meet before you meet at Intel or did you meet before Intel? How did that go? Intel? How did that go? Intel? How did that go? Thanks for having us, by the way, and Thanks for having us, by the way, and Thanks for having us, by the way, and thanks for letting us be your guinea thanks for letting us be your guinea thanks for letting us be your guinea pigs, by the way. We uh we we met before pigs, by the way. We uh we we met before pigs, by the way. We uh we we met before Intel, uh Intel, uh Intel, uh long before, actually. We actually met long before, actually. We actually met long before, actually. We actually met at Bible college in in Southern at Bible college in in Southern at Bible college in in Southern California. So, I was there my freshman California. So, I was there my freshman California. So, I was there my freshman year, Jamie went somewhere else her year, Jamie went somewhere else her year, Jamie went somewhere else her freshman year. She came there uh her freshman year. She came there uh her freshman year. She came there uh her sophomore year. And if anybody has ever sophomore year. And if anybody has ever sophomore year. And if anybody has ever been a part of a a smaller, you know, been a part of a a smaller, you know, been a part of a a smaller, you know, Bible college environment, it's like Bible college environment, it's like Bible college environment, it's like everybody kind of knows everybody. So everybody kind of knows everybody. So everybody kind of knows everybody. So when Jamie showed up on campus, it was when Jamie showed up on campus, it was when Jamie showed up on campus, it was you know, it was you you noticed right you know, it was you you noticed right you know, it was you you noticed right away.

away. away. It was a It was a big deal. So everyone It was a It was a big deal. So everyone It was a It was a big deal. So everyone was off everyone everyone's kind of off was off everyone everyone's kind of off was off everyone everyone's kind of off to the races and to the races and to the races and she was actually my my roommate. She was she was actually my my roommate. She was she was actually my my roommate. She was coming over and he had invited her to to coming over and he had invited her to to coming over and he had invited her to to come over and and come over and and come over and and show him something and so she she walked show him something and so she she walked show him something and so she she walked in our dorm room. We we we'd met each in our dorm room. We we we'd met each in our dorm room. We we we'd met each other really briefly before that and other really briefly before that and other really briefly before that and she's in my dorm room and we're we she's in my dorm room and we're we she's in my dorm room and we're we started talking a little bit and this is started talking a little bit and this is started talking a little bit and this is I'll give you our first date story then, I'll give you our first date story then, I'll give you our first date story then, okay? okay? okay? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh he Uh he Uh he So she I I was playing volleyball. I was So she I I was playing volleyball. I was So she I I was playing volleyball. I was playing in a league at the time. It was playing in a league at the time. It was playing in a league at the time. It was kind of off season. kind of off season. kind of off season. And the league was in Huntington Beach, And the league was in Huntington Beach, And the league was in Huntington Beach, which was Southern California traffic. which was Southern California traffic. which was Southern California traffic. It's a lot of traffic. And so I thought, It's a lot of traffic. And so I thought, It's a lot of traffic. And so I thought, I want to hang out with this girl. And I want to hang out with this girl. And I want to hang out with this girl. And this is just so dumb, but the only way I this is just so dumb, but the only way I this is just so dumb, but the only way I thought to say, let's hang out, is I thought to say, let's hang out, is I thought to say, let's hang out, is I said, "Hey, I'm going to this volleyball said, "Hey, I'm going to this volleyball said, "Hey, I'm going to this volleyball game. It's a long ways away, but if if game. It's a long ways away, but if if game. It's a long ways away, but if if you come with me, I can take the carpool you come with me, I can take the carpool you come with me, I can take the carpool lane." You know? And so lane." You know? And so lane." You know? And so Like that Like that Like that What a great move. What a great move. What a great move. That's how smooth. That's how smooth I That's how smooth. That's how smooth I That's how smooth. That's how smooth I was. You know? was. You know? was. You know? But you know what? She said yes. So it But you know what? She said yes. So it But you know what? She said yes. So it still it still worked and that's when we still it still worked and that's when we still it still worked and that's when we hung out and hung out and hung out and it actually that developed into it actually that developed into it actually that developed into we dated for 3 and 1/2 years and then we dated for 3 and 1/2 years and then we dated for 3 and 1/2 years and then got married right out of right out of got married right out of right out of got married right out of right out of college. And then both got jobs at college. And then both got jobs at college. And then both got jobs at Intel.

Intel. Intel. So what's your version of the story? The So what's your version of the story? The So what's your version of the story? The real version. real version. real version. I want to hear this. I want to hear this. I want to hear this. That's pretty accurate. The The what I That's pretty accurate. The The what I That's pretty accurate. The The what I remember more is that he forgot his remember more is that he forgot his remember more is that he forgot his wallet on our actual first date and I wallet on our actual first date and I wallet on our actual first date and I paid for our first date. So there are paid for our first date. So there are paid for our first date. So there are like many miracles in the way of us like many miracles in the way of us like many miracles in the way of us actually actually actually This is just God's like God's provision. This is just God's like God's provision. This is just God's like God's provision. We So we did the carpool story. That was We So we did the carpool story. That was We So we did the carpool story. That was just kind of like a just kind of like a just kind of like a just get to know and hang out. Then we just get to know and hang out. Then we just get to know and hang out. Then we went on our first date, invited her to went on our first date, invited her to went on our first date, invited her to this like vibey ice cream place near the this like vibey ice cream place near the this like vibey ice cream place near the beach in California. beach in California. beach in California. And we show up and I literally I had And we show up and I literally I had And we show up and I literally I had dropped my wallet on the on the dropped my wallet on the on the dropped my wallet on the on the I guess the floorboard of my car. So we I guess the floorboard of my car. So we I guess the floorboard of my car. So we we show up at ice cream place. I have we show up at ice cream place. I have we show up at ice cream place. I have nothing to pay. She's thinking like, nothing to pay. She's thinking like, nothing to pay. She's thinking like, "Oh, great. I'm dating, you know, "Oh, great. I'm dating, you know, "Oh, great. I'm dating, you know, It's amazing that we had a second date, It's amazing that we had a second date, It's amazing that we had a second date, actually. actually. actually. Amazing. I was actually thinking about Amazing. I was actually thinking about Amazing. I was actually thinking about this cuz we have three girls and they're this cuz we have three girls and they're this cuz we have three girls and they're dating eight and two of them one's dating eight and two of them one's dating eight and two of them one's married, two are dating ages like, "If married, two are dating ages like, "If married, two are dating ages like, "If this happened if if this happened now, this happened if if this happened now, this happened if if this happened now, what would we say?" what would we say?" what would we say?" Drop them. Drop them. Drop them. boy. boy. boy. Drop them. Drop them. Drop them. Were you just that attracted? Were you just that attracted? Were you just that attracted? Was it Was it Was it just pure Was it Was it Was it just pure Was it Was it Was it just pure unadulterated unadulterated unadulterated What's the next question? What's the next question? What's the next question? the next question? All right, so the the next question? All right, so the the next question? All right, so the next question, yeah.

next question, yeah. next question, yeah. So, you graduate Bible college, you both So, you graduate Bible college, you both So, you graduate Bible college, you both end up at Intel. You're in finance, end up at Intel. You're in finance, end up at Intel. You're in finance, you're in software engineering? you're in software engineering? you're in software engineering? I am. I am. I am. So, you're a coder? So, you're a coder? So, you're a coder? I am. Yeah, that's my background. Yeah, I am. Yeah, that's my background. Yeah, I am. Yeah, that's my background. Yeah, we have a unique We had a unique we have a unique We had a unique we have a unique We had a unique experience college experience and we had experience college experience and we had experience college experience and we had Cal State right across the street, so Cal State right across the street, so Cal State right across the street, so you would have your Bible college you would have your Bible college you would have your Bible college experience and then you would walk experience and then you would walk experience and then you would walk across the street and take all of your across the street and take all of your across the street and take all of your engineering classes. It was awesome. So engineering classes. It was awesome. So engineering classes. It was awesome. So fortunate. fortunate. fortunate. the smarter one between the two of us by the smarter one between the two of us by the smarter one between the two of us by far. far. far. I I I married similarly. So, what what I I I married similarly. So, what what I I I married similarly. So, what what attracted you to coding? I mean, STEM is attracted you to coding? I mean, STEM is attracted you to coding? I mean, STEM is hard for women even today, but go back hard for women even today, but go back hard for women even today, but go back to the late '90s, early 2000s, it was to the late '90s, early 2000s, it was to the late '90s, early 2000s, it was probably even more rare. probably even more rare. probably even more rare. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My dad was My dad was My dad was um kind of a pioneer in early computing um kind of a pioneer in early computing um kind of a pioneer in early computing and so I grew up as a hot at a at a and so I grew up as a hot at a at a and so I grew up as a hot at a at a hobby. That hobby. That hobby. That What did he do? What did he do? What did he do? He Gosh, he like the very Think the This He Gosh, he like the very Think the This He Gosh, he like the very Think the This is back in like '70s, '80s. Think early is back in like '70s, '80s. Think early is back in like '70s, '80s. Think early IT. IT. IT. Uh-huh. No, I remember Pong. I remember Uh-huh. No, I remember Pong. I remember Uh-huh. No, I remember Pong. I remember the Commodore 64. the Commodore 64. the Commodore 64. We had which I still I wish we had it. We had which I still I wish we had it. We had which I still I wish we had it. We had one of the very first Ataris.

We had one of the very first Ataris. We had one of the very first Ataris. Oh, really? Oh, really? Oh, really? We had just the computer chips and you We had just the computer chips and you We had just the computer chips and you would put them in it would put them in it would put them in it Man, if we only had that stuff. Man, if we only had that stuff. Man, if we only had that stuff. I could not figure that stuff out. Even I could not figure that stuff out. Even I could not figure that stuff out. Even as a kid. Like, you know, I remember we as a kid. Like, you know, I remember we as a kid. Like, you know, I remember we had a Commodore 64 and then we had an had a Commodore 64 and then we had an had a Commodore 64 and then we had an Apple II, I think. Apple II, I think. Apple II, I think. And I'm like, I don't understand this And I'm like, I don't understand this And I'm like, I don't understand this stuff. Computing was still punch cards. stuff. Computing was still punch cards. stuff. Computing was still punch cards. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So, you you grew up with it with your So, you you grew up with it with your So, you you grew up with it with your dad? dad? dad? and it was a hobby of mine and I just and it was a hobby of mine and I just and it was a hobby of mine and I just came to my dad and I'm like, "I want to came to my dad and I'm like, "I want to came to my dad and I'm like, "I want to do this." And he's like, "You're you're do this." And he's like, "You're you're do this." And he's like, "You're you're going to get a job." He's like, "How going to get a job." He's like, "How going to get a job." He's like, "How about this?" And it was it was tech and about this?" And it was it was tech and about this?" And it was it was tech and I was like, let's do it. And so from I was like, let's do it. And so from I was like, let's do it. And so from there, that's that's kind of my that was there, that's that's kind of my that was there, that's that's kind of my that was my path. my path. my path. going to get a job in? going to get a job in? going to get a job in? Just anything at Well, that's a whole Just anything at Well, that's a whole Just anything at Well, that's a whole 'nother story we can get into of my 'nother story we can get into of my 'nother story we can get into of my path. We'll We'll get it. Let's get into path. We'll We'll get it. Let's get into path. We'll We'll get it. Let's get into that. that. that. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. questions from now. questions from now. questions from now. you live. you live. you live. There's a longer There's a longer story. There's a longer There's a longer story. There's a longer There's a longer story. She was going to be a spy at one point. She was going to be a spy at one point. She was going to be a spy at one point. That's not it. That's not the point. That's not it. That's not the point. That's not it. That's not the point. do some research around that. You're do some research around that. You're do some research around that. You're going to be a spy. going to be a spy. going to be a spy. I literally thought I was going to be a I literally thought I was going to be a I literally thought I was going to be a spy. spy. spy. She She learned Russian. She She learned Russian. She She learned Russian. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. You learned You speak Russian? You learned You speak Russian? You learned You speak Russian? It's been a long time. So, okay. If we It's been a long time. So, okay. If we It's been a long time. So, okay. If we go way back to the Cold War, right? We go way back to the Cold War, right? We go way back to the Cold War, right? We all grew up in the Cold War. And in in all grew up in the Cold War. And in in all grew up in the Cold War. And in in America, a lot of people are Googling America, a lot of people are Googling America, a lot of people are Googling like, what is the Cold War? But um like, what is the Cold War? But um like, what is the Cold War? But um we grew up during the Cold War. So, they we grew up during the Cold War. So, they we grew up during the Cold War. So, they came to my So, somebody came to my high came to my So, somebody came to my high came to my So, somebody came to my high school and said, we need more students school and said, we need more students school and said, we need more students that can speak Russian. So, as a that can speak Russian. So, as a that can speak Russian. So, as a freshman in high school and uh I learned freshman in high school and uh I learned freshman in high school and uh I learned I took 4 years of Russian. And in that I took 4 years of Russian. And in that I took 4 years of Russian. And in that time, I thought that was my calling. I time, I thought that was my calling. I time, I thought that was my calling. I thought thought thought Absolutely. I thought I was going to be Absolutely. I thought I was going to be Absolutely. I thought I was going to be some help my country and be a spy. I some help my country and be a spy. I some help my country and be a spy. I know, it's the stupidest story, but it's know, it's the stupidest story, but it's know, it's the stupidest story, but it's real. real. real. And your dad And your dad And your dad Well, my freshman year, I was a Well, my freshman year, I was a Well, my freshman year, I was a political science major at NAU. political science major at NAU. political science major at NAU. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I And I And I Poli Sci over here, too. Poli Sci over here, too. Poli Sci over here, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Another year Russian and then I Right. Another year Russian and then I Right. Another year Russian and then I was a foreign exchange student. was a foreign exchange student. was a foreign exchange student. Wow. Wow. Wow. And so And so And so Spent some time in Russia. Spent some time in Russia. Spent some time in Russia. Spent Spent an entire summer in Russia. Spent Spent an entire summer in Russia. Spent Spent an entire summer in Russia. And they don't allow you to fly. They And they don't allow you to fly. They And they don't allow you to fly. They didn't allow In the '90s, they didn't didn't allow In the '90s, they didn't didn't allow In the '90s, they didn't allow you to fly inside of Russia. So, I allow you to fly inside of Russia. So, I allow you to fly inside of Russia. So, I had to take a train from Moscow to the had to take a train from Moscow to the had to take a train from Moscow to the middle of Siberia for my language middle of Siberia for my language middle of Siberia for my language school.

school. school. And it was a week. And so, you would get And it was a week. And so, you would get And it was a week. And so, you would get on a train for a week and it's the most on a train for a week and it's the most on a train for a week and it's the most scared I've ever been in my whole life. scared I've ever been in my whole life. scared I've ever been in my whole life. And basically, the story is we would And basically, the story is we would And basically, the story is we would wrap a belt around I can still picture wrap a belt around I can still picture wrap a belt around I can still picture it. We would wrap a belt around the door it. We would wrap a belt around the door it. We would wrap a belt around the door handle and um handle and um handle and um people and military would bang on the people and military would bang on the people and military would bang on the door trying to get in all all at all door trying to get in all all at all door trying to get in all all at all hours of the night because they knew a hours of the night because they knew a hours of the night because they knew a young girl was in on the train and it's young girl was in on the train and it's young girl was in on the train and it's really where it's part of my story of really where it's part of my story of really where it's part of my story of where I really found the Lord because I where I really found the Lord because I where I really found the Lord because I grew up a believer grew up in a very grew up a believer grew up in a very grew up a believer grew up in a very comfortable household where I just comfortable household where I just comfortable household where I just didn't I knew who God was but I didn't didn't I knew who God was but I didn't didn't I knew who God was but I didn't need him and in that moment everything need him and in that moment everything need him and in that moment everything changed for me where I knew without a changed for me where I knew without a changed for me where I knew without a doubt who my savior was doubt who my savior was doubt who my savior was were fighting for your life. were fighting for your life. were fighting for your life. Absolutely. So came home and Absolutely. So came home and Absolutely. So came home and my entire life changed and that's when I my entire life changed and that's when I my entire life changed and that's when I went to Bible College. went to Bible College. went to Bible College. That's why that's why we met. That's how That's why that's why we met. That's how That's why that's why we met. That's how we met. we met. we met. That's why we met. That's why we met. That's why we met. No way. No way. No way. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I ended up at Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I ended up at Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I ended up at Bible College because of that train. Bible College because of that train. Bible College because of that train. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Wild.

Wild. Wild. So I'm sure we could unpack that a lot So I'm sure we could unpack that a lot So I'm sure we could unpack that a lot but but but could. could. could. But part of the part of the reason I But part of the part of the reason I But part of the part of the reason I wanted to Tony and I had had lunch with wanted to Tony and I had had lunch with wanted to Tony and I had had lunch with you guys and we got to know you a little you guys and we got to know you a little you guys and we got to know you a little bit over the last couple of years and bit over the last couple of years and bit over the last couple of years and dinner more recently. dinner more recently. dinner more recently. Um but what I love about this is two Um but what I love about this is two Um but what I love about this is two leaders who fall in love and get leaders who fall in love and get leaders who fall in love and get married. married. married. And you know that's a dynamic more and And you know that's a dynamic more and And you know that's a dynamic more and more millennials and Gen Z are facing more millennials and Gen Z are facing more millennials and Gen Z are facing and there's all kinds of stereotypes in and there's all kinds of stereotypes in and there's all kinds of stereotypes in the church particularly for lead pastors the church particularly for lead pastors the church particularly for lead pastors of large churches and their spouses. of large churches and their spouses. of large churches and their spouses. But how did you first know Jamie that But how did you first know Jamie that But how did you first know Jamie that you were wired as a leader? you were wired as a leader? you were wired as a leader? Yeah, I think I've always been very Yeah, I think I've always been very Yeah, I think I've always been very stubborn very opinionated very driven. I stubborn very opinionated very driven. I stubborn very opinionated very driven. I mean the fact that I was willing to go mean the fact that I was willing to go mean the fact that I was willing to go across the world and I had no fear in across the world and I had no fear in across the world and I had no fear in that my that my that my And you're 18 19? And you're 18 19? And you're 18 19? 18. 18. 18. Wow. Wow. Wow. no fear in that. So I think there's some no fear in that. So I think there's some no fear in that. So I think there's some I don't know God ordained I don't know God ordained I don't know God ordained drive inside of me and when I came home drive inside of me and when I came home drive inside of me and when I came home I was sort of like what what is next and I was sort of like what what is next and I was sort of like what what is next and that's when my dad was like well that's when my dad was like well that's when my dad was like well political science majors don't really political science majors don't really political science majors don't really have jobs.

have jobs. have jobs. He is not wrong. He is not wrong. He is not wrong. So tech was my next step and then I So tech was my next step and then I So tech was my next step and then I wanted to do everything I could just to wanted to do everything I could just to wanted to do everything I could just to be I didn't even there was a season in be I didn't even there was a season in be I didn't even there was a season in my life I didn't even want kids I was my life I didn't even want kids I was my life I didn't even want kids I was that driven. that driven. that driven. Wow. Wow. Wow. And then he came alongside me and um And then he came alongside me and um And then he came alongside me and um really never know if I would I mean I'm really never know if I would I mean I'm really never know if I would I mean I'm I'm sure I imagined I would get married, I'm sure I imagined I would get married, I'm sure I imagined I would get married, but it wasn't on my radar at all. We met but it wasn't on my radar at all. We met but it wasn't on my radar at all. We met and that's when sort of the world and that's when sort of the world and that's when sort of the world changed for me. The world got a lot changed for me. The world got a lot changed for me. The world got a lot bigger than what I had originally bigger than what I had originally bigger than what I had originally thought it was going to be. thought it was going to be. thought it was going to be. Mhm. Huh. How did it get bigger? Mhm. Huh. How did it get bigger? Mhm. Huh. How did it get bigger? Um I think just my view of life and what Um I think just my view of life and what Um I think just my view of life and what success was expanded. I was very success was expanded. I was very success was expanded. I was very self-motivated of what was best for me, self-motivated of what was best for me, self-motivated of what was best for me, my career, my life. And that really my career, my life. And that really my career, my life. And that really probably followed me into a lot of my probably followed me into a lot of my probably followed me into a lot of my 20s. 20s. 20s. Wow. Wow. Wow. Of just being driven because I was the I Of just being driven because I was the I Of just being driven because I was the I was in a tech world in the 90s. There was in a tech world in the 90s. There was in a tech world in the 90s. There were not a lot of females. There were a were not a lot of females. There were a were not a lot of females. There were a lot of strong males coming from a Bible lot of strong males coming from a Bible lot of strong males coming from a Bible college where your education in computer college where your education in computer college where your education in computer science is probably average at best. So science is probably average at best. So science is probably average at best. So we had a lot of the similar we had a we we had a lot of the similar we had a we we had a lot of the similar we had a we were having the same conversations even were having the same conversations even were having the same conversations even though he was in finance and I was in though he was in finance and I was in though he was in finance and I was in engineering. We were having a lot of say engineering. We were having a lot of say engineering. We were having a lot of say the same conversations at night where we the same conversations at night where we the same conversations at night where we were like were like were like when are they going to find out? I cried when are they going to find out? I cried when are they going to find out? I cried every day for 6 months.

every day for 6 months. every day for 6 months. Cried every day for 6 months when you Cried every day for 6 months when you Cried every day for 6 months when you joined Intel. joined Intel. joined Intel. joined Intel. This is before we were joined Intel. This is before we were joined Intel. This is before we were married, just before we were married. married, just before we were married. married, just before we were married. Feeling so unprepared, feeling so um Feeling so unprepared, feeling so um Feeling so unprepared, feeling so um overwhelmed. Everyone around you, you overwhelmed. Everyone around you, you overwhelmed. Everyone around you, you know, so much more you know, their know, so much more you know, their know, so much more you know, their schooling, their training, you know, schooling, their training, you know, schooling, their training, you know, some of what we talked about in the last some of what we talked about in the last some of what we talked about in the last episode. episode. episode. So yeah, in the last episode Ash and I So yeah, in the last episode Ash and I So yeah, in the last episode Ash and I talked about his decade or so at Intel talked about his decade or so at Intel talked about his decade or so at Intel and how you picked up on EQ because of a and how you picked up on EQ because of a and how you picked up on EQ because of a mentor. mentor. mentor. What was your breakthrough? After 6 What was your breakthrough? After 6 What was your breakthrough? After 6 months the tears waned or stopped? So months the tears waned or stopped? So months the tears waned or stopped? So what helped you? What was your hack? what helped you? What was your hack? what helped you? What was your hack? Your your figure? Your your figure? Your your figure? Yeah, I think there was some catch up. Yeah, I think there was some catch up. Yeah, I think there was some catch up. Like some technical catch up. That's Like some technical catch up. That's Like some technical catch up. That's just just just Right. So you had to like catch up with Right. So you had to like catch up with Right. So you had to like catch up with the Stanford grads? the Stanford grads? the Stanford grads? Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes. And secondly, I became a little bit of a And secondly, I became a little bit of a And secondly, I became a little bit of a unicorn because I I could talk to people unicorn because I I could talk to people unicorn because I I could talk to people and I wouldn't be offended when people and I wouldn't be offended when people and I wouldn't be offended when people didn't like my ideas. didn't like my ideas. didn't like my ideas. Are you an eight, an enneagram Are you an eight, an enneagram Are you an eight, an enneagram I'm a two wing three. I'm a two wing three. I'm a two wing three. You're a two wing three, really? But a You're a two wing three, really? But a You're a two wing three, really? But a really strong one. really strong one. really strong one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. But you weren't offended. But you weren't offended. But you weren't offended. I was not offended because if you get I was not offended because if you get I was not offended because if you get around a lot of engineers, they're around a lot of engineers, they're around a lot of engineers, they're offended at everything.

offended at everything. offended at everything. Really? Really? Really? they if things don't go their way, if they if things don't go their way, if they if things don't go their way, if they don't if you don't if they don't they don't if you don't if they don't they don't if you don't if they don't like their idea, if you don't like their like their idea, if you don't like their like their idea, if you don't like their product, it's like a baby to them. product, it's like a baby to them. product, it's like a baby to them. They've developed this, and they give it They've developed this, and they give it They've developed this, and they give it to you, and if you don't like it, and to you, and if you don't like it, and to you, and if you don't like it, and and if you have feedback on how it and if you have feedback on how it and if you have feedback on how it operates, operates, operates, um they get really offended, and they um they get really offended, and they um they get really offended, and they like to work alone. Whereas I was the like to work alone. Whereas I was the like to work alone. Whereas I was the opposite. opposite. opposite. I like to work collaboratively. I wanted I like to work collaboratively. I wanted I like to work collaboratively. I wanted the feedback because I knew I needed it. the feedback because I knew I needed it. the feedback because I knew I needed it. And so it should I think I just became a And so it should I think I just became a And so it should I think I just became a little bit of a unicorn in my in my little bit of a unicorn in my in my little bit of a unicorn in my in my field, and had a lot of success that field, and had a lot of success that field, and had a lot of success that way. I'd walk in a room with a giant way. I'd walk in a room with a giant way. I'd walk in a room with a giant pregnant belly, and people would be pregnant belly, and people would be pregnant belly, and people would be like, "Who invited their sister?" like, "Who invited their sister?" like, "Who invited their sister?" Because it was very male-dominated. So Because it was very male-dominated. So Because it was very male-dominated. So much so the fact that my first year much so the fact that my first year much so the fact that my first year there, they came to me, and they're there, they came to me, and they're there, they came to me, and they're like, "We need to give you a 40% pay like, "We need to give you a 40% pay like, "We need to give you a 40% pay increase because we're underpaying you." increase because we're underpaying you." increase because we're underpaying you." Really? Really? Really? Is it Is it Is it Did you know you're being underpaid? Did you know you're being underpaid? Did you know you're being underpaid? I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't know. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Mhm. No. And it you know, just Mhm. No. And it you know, just Mhm. No. And it you know, just assumed everybody was making assumed everybody was making assumed everybody was making Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you were you know, you knew out of Yeah, you were you know, you knew out of Yeah, you were you know, you knew out of college, and I remember that when they college, and I remember that when they college, and I remember that when they you know, they had to do adjustments for you know, they had to do adjustments for you know, they had to do adjustments for This is when we had a lot of female-male This is when we had a lot of female-male This is when we had a lot of female-male imbalances imbalances imbalances Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. in in pay. in in pay. in in pay. And it's hasn't been that long. And the And it's hasn't been that long. And the And it's hasn't been that long. And the inappropriate things that people said inappropriate things that people said inappropriate things that people said like we I lived that in the time like we I lived that in the time like we I lived that in the time Really? Really? Really? Yeah, because Yeah, because Yeah, because The harassment. The harassment. The harassment. one of the only females. And so I think one of the only females. And so I think one of the only females. And so I think what I also learned is you just have to what I also learned is you just have to what I also learned is you just have to add value wherever you are. add value wherever you are. add value wherever you are. So in your 20s, So in your 20s, So in your 20s, one of the few female engineers. one of the few female engineers. one of the few female engineers. Wow. Wow. Wow. So two strong personalities in a So two strong personalities in a So two strong personalities in a marriage. marriage. marriage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talk about the fireworks. Talk about Talk about the fireworks. Talk about Talk about the fireworks. Talk about What are the normal clash points, and What are the normal clash points, and What are the normal clash points, and how have you made it work? Is it 25 how have you made it work? Is it 25 how have you made it work? Is it 25 years now? years now? years now? Yeah, 25. Yeah, 25. Yeah, 25. 25. 25. 25. Congratulations. Congratulations. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's great. That's great. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was so easy. Yeah, it was so Yeah, it was so easy. Yeah, it was so Yeah, it was so easy. Yeah, it was so easy. easy. easy. It's so easy. It's so easy. It's so easy. It was I mean, it was it was fireworks, It was I mean, it was it was fireworks, It was I mean, it was it was fireworks, Carrie. It was we we we we feel like Carrie. It was we we we we feel like Carrie. It was we we we we feel like you know, so much of that shaping early you know, so much of that shaping early you know, so much of that shaping early on in our marriage we felt like we had on in our marriage we felt like we had on in our marriage we felt like we had the the trifecta of issues. Not not only the the trifecta of issues. Not not only the the trifecta of issues. Not not only are we are we are we real both of us incredibly strong, real both of us incredibly strong, real both of us incredibly strong, incredible incredibly opinionated, can incredible incredibly opinionated, can incredible incredibly opinionated, can get stubborn.

get stubborn. get stubborn. Um yeah, we're young, immature, and you Um yeah, we're young, immature, and you Um yeah, we're young, immature, and you know, you're dealing with the trifecta. know, you're dealing with the trifecta. know, you're dealing with the trifecta. We're dealing with the trifecta of uh we We're dealing with the trifecta of uh we We're dealing with the trifecta of uh we got we have we have financial problems got we have we have financial problems got we have we have financial problems um even though we're making a ton of um even though we're making a ton of um even though we're making a ton of money. money. money. Right. Sure. A lot to talk about there. Right. Sure. A lot to talk about there. Right. Sure. A lot to talk about there. So finances are a mess. Um So finances are a mess. Um So finances are a mess. Um you know, the intimacy when it comes to you know, the intimacy when it comes to you know, the intimacy when it comes to sex we're dealing with all the issues sex we're dealing with all the issues sex we're dealing with all the issues every couple deals with there of and every couple deals with there of and every couple deals with there of and then we've also got the power struggles then we've also got the power struggles then we've also got the power struggles of the two of us. And then you combine, of the two of us. And then you combine, of the two of us. And then you combine, you know, trying to manage in-law you know, trying to manage in-law you know, trying to manage in-law dynamics and things going on there and dynamics and things going on there and dynamics and things going on there and um it was it it was a it was tough. Tell um it was it it was a it was tough. Tell um it was it it was a it was tough. Tell Tell them Tell them the quote you had. Tell them Tell them the quote you had. Tell them Tell them the quote you had. I've I've shared this with this with the I've I've shared this with this with the I've I've shared this with this with the church before but the quote you had church before but the quote you had church before but the quote you had early in marriage what you used to tell early in marriage what you used to tell early in marriage what you used to tell yourself. yourself. yourself. I think I just basically just had I think I just basically just had I think I just basically just had convinced myself I'm just going to have convinced myself I'm just going to have convinced myself I'm just going to have to learn to be unhappy. to learn to be unhappy. to learn to be unhappy. Wow. Wow. Wow. Which Which Which Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that really our first few years I mean that really our first few years I mean that really our first few years were were were She didn't tell me that till like so She didn't tell me that till like so She didn't tell me that till like so many years later but but honestly I many years later but but honestly I many years later but but honestly I didn't I didn't get offend I didn't even didn't I didn't get offend I didn't even didn't I didn't get offend I didn't even almost get offended to that comment almost get offended to that comment almost get offended to that comment because because because Were you happy?

Were you happy? Were you happy? Our early No, our early years of Our early No, our early years of Our early No, our early years of marriage were so tough. And you know, we marriage were so tough. And you know, we marriage were so tough. And you know, we were followers of Jesus, plugged in in were followers of Jesus, plugged in in were followers of Jesus, plugged in in the church the church the church but just really dealing with and again but just really dealing with and again but just really dealing with and again both of us working, both of us, you both of us working, both of us, you both of us working, both of us, you know, you got this that young drive that know, you got this that young drive that know, you got this that young drive that you need, you want to have some success, you need, you want to have some success, you need, you want to have some success, you want to be you want to be you want to be um seen as um um seen as um um seen as um significant in some way. You're bringing significant in some way. You're bringing significant in some way. You're bringing that home even to try to you know, that home even to try to you know, that home even to try to you know, powering up on each other all the time powering up on each other all the time powering up on each other all the time and this is this is a dynamic I think and this is this is a dynamic I think and this is this is a dynamic I think almost every young couple has to deal almost every young couple has to deal almost every young couple has to deal with. It's just kind of to what degree. with. It's just kind of to what degree. with. It's just kind of to what degree. So money, sex, and power. So money, sex, and power. So money, sex, and power. Yep. Yep. Yep. All big issues. All big issues. All big issues. Big issues. Big issues. Big issues. In your 20s. In your 20s. In your 20s. Can we start with money? Can we start with money? Can we start with money? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What was cuz you're right, you know, What was cuz you're right, you know, What was cuz you're right, you know, software engineers working at Intel and software engineers working at Intel and software engineers working at Intel and you know, in finance at Intel, you're you know, in finance at Intel, you're you know, in finance at Intel, you're making the equivalent today of making the equivalent today of making the equivalent today of very healthy six-figure salaries. very healthy six-figure salaries. very healthy six-figure salaries. Fair? Fair? Fair? Yep. Yep. Yep. Way into Yeah, way into six figures. I Way into Yeah, way into six figures. I Way into Yeah, way into six figures. I mean more money than we could have ever mean more money than we could have ever mean more money than we could have ever imagined. And I'll give you some of my imagined. And I'll give you some of my imagined. And I'll give you some of my Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. background to carry cuz I think it plays background to carry cuz I think it plays background to carry cuz I think it plays into it. Jamie, you know, grew up in into it. Jamie, you know, grew up in into it. Jamie, you know, grew up in probably a middle to upper affluent probably a middle to upper affluent probably a middle to upper affluent household. Um household. Um household. Um I grew up really poor. Um you know, one I grew up really poor. Um you know, one I grew up really poor. Um you know, one one teacher's salary, four kids, mom one teacher's salary, four kids, mom one teacher's salary, four kids, mom stayed home. We had very little and and stayed home. We had very little and and stayed home. We had very little and and I I watched my parents battle.

I I watched my parents battle. I I watched my parents battle. The number one issue in my parents uh The number one issue in my parents uh The number one issue in my parents uh marriage was was finances. marriage was was finances. marriage was was finances. Never enough. Never enough. Never enough. Never Never Never Never enough. It was Never Never Never Never enough. It was Never Never Never Never enough. It was never enough. And it Again, it it broke never enough. And it Again, it it broke never enough. And it Again, it it broke my heart so much to see it divide them my heart so much to see it divide them my heart so much to see it divide them so much. I I remember making a promise so much. I I remember making a promise so much. I I remember making a promise to myself to myself to myself when I was in high school, when I get when I was in high school, when I get when I was in high school, when I get married, I will never let money be an married, I will never let money be an married, I will never let money be an issue. And I thought the answer to that issue. And I thought the answer to that issue. And I thought the answer to that is I just had to make more than my my is I just had to make more than my my is I just had to make more than my my parents made. parents made. parents made. And so when we started working at Intel And so when we started working at Intel And so when we started working at Intel and you have two salaries in the tech and you have two salaries in the tech and you have two salaries in the tech industry at the time, I mean, we're industry at the time, I mean, we're industry at the time, I mean, we're making making making more than we could ever imagine and yet more than we could ever imagine and yet more than we could ever imagine and yet we would get to the end and but we went we would get to the end and but we went we would get to the end and but we went on on on we went on we went on we went on a consumption extravaganza. a consumption extravaganza. a consumption extravaganza. Right. Right. Right. We just began to consume cuz we cuz we We just began to consume cuz we cuz we We just began to consume cuz we cuz we thought that's what it thought that's what it thought that's what it That's what would make That's what would make That's what would make Right. Where did it Where did it go? Right. Where did it Where did it go? Right. Where did it Where did it go? Where did it go? Let's get specific. Where did it go? Let's get specific. Where did it go? Let's get specific. So let's get really specific. So we So let's get really specific. So we So let's get really specific. So we bought a house, massive house. There's bought a house, massive house. There's bought a house, massive house. There's just the two of us. We bought this just the two of us. We bought this just the two of us. We bought this massive house that we I mean massive house that we I mean massive house that we I mean just because we're the salary, you go to just because we're the salary, you go to just because we're the salary, you go to the real estate agent, it's like, here's the real estate agent, it's like, here's the real estate agent, it's like, here's your salary, here's what kind of house your salary, here's what kind of house your salary, here's what kind of house Right. Right. Let me show you a Right. Right. Let me show you a Right. Right. Let me show you a different neighborhood.

different neighborhood. different neighborhood. So we we bought this massive house. Then So we we bought this massive house. Then So we we bought this massive house. Then we started I mean, just the renovations we started I mean, just the renovations we started I mean, just the renovations we started doing like crazy too. I mean, we started doing like crazy too. I mean, we started doing like crazy too. I mean, just everything. We bought the cars, just everything. We bought the cars, just everything. We bought the cars, we're going on the vacations. We started we're going on the vacations. We started we're going on the vacations. We started racking up actual debt. racking up actual debt. racking up actual debt. Um Um Um wasn't enough. And so, wasn't enough. And so, wasn't enough. And so, you know, it got to this place and and you know, it got to this place and and you know, it got to this place and and then we're blaming each other all the then we're blaming each other all the then we're blaming each other all the time of why time of why time of why we're we're out at the end of like the we're we're out at the end of like the we're we're out at the end of like the pay period and why there's not enough pay period and why there's not enough pay period and why there's not enough left over and it's cuz you spent too left over and it's cuz you spent too left over and it's cuz you spent too much on the house. You're like, "No, you much on the house. You're like, "No, you much on the house. You're like, "No, you you spent too much on this this this you spent too much on this this this you spent too much on this this this golf everything else." golf everything else." golf everything else." And so, And so, And so, we started having the exact same dynamic we started having the exact same dynamic we started having the exact same dynamic that I saw in my parents growing up and that I saw in my parents growing up and that I saw in my parents growing up and yet we're making so much. yet we're making so much. yet we're making so much. And I will never forget waking up one And I will never forget waking up one And I will never forget waking up one morning. We we just had this massive morning. We we just had this massive morning. We we just had this massive fight the night before um over our fight the night before um over our fight the night before um over our finances. I woke up again broken heart finances. I woke up again broken heart finances. I woke up again broken heart my heart broke. my heart broke. my heart broke. I thought I'm I'm repeating the pattern I thought I'm I'm repeating the pattern I thought I'm I'm repeating the pattern I promised that I wouldn't repeat in my I promised that I wouldn't repeat in my I promised that I wouldn't repeat in my marriage. marriage. marriage. And the only thing I could think to do And the only thing I could think to do And the only thing I could think to do at the time because we were making so at the time because we were making so at the time because we were making so much much much is I is I is I I was like, "I have to turn to God's I was like, "I have to turn to God's I was like, "I have to turn to God's word."

word." word." I That's the only thing I knew to do is I That's the only thing I knew to do is I That's the only thing I knew to do is I was like and I didn't even know what I was like and I didn't even know what I was like and I didn't even know what it said it said it said about money. I mean, I went to Bible about money. I mean, I went to Bible about money. I mean, I went to Bible college and I didn't know. college and I didn't know. college and I didn't know. And and not to mention we both had our And and not to mention we both had our And and not to mention we both had our MBAs. So, we were like over educated on MBAs. So, we were like over educated on MBAs. So, we were like over educated on We were way over educated on finances We were way over educated on finances We were way over educated on finances and it's still a mess. And what we and it's still a mess. And what we and it's still a mess. And what we realized about when your life is focused realized about when your life is focused realized about when your life is focused on consuming, when your life is focused on consuming, when your life is focused on consuming, when your life is focused on consuming, it will never be enough. on consuming, it will never be enough. on consuming, it will never be enough. It's like drinking salt water and It's like drinking salt water and It's like drinking salt water and thinking it's going to satisfy you. It thinking it's going to satisfy you. It thinking it's going to satisfy you. It only makes you more thirsty. only makes you more thirsty. only makes you more thirsty. Huh. Huh. Huh. And so, this consumption train we we And so, this consumption train we we And so, this consumption train we we said, "What are we doing?" And so, we we said, "What are we doing?" And so, we we said, "What are we doing?" And so, we we we turned to God's word. We spent a year we turned to God's word. We spent a year we turned to God's word. We spent a year really studying almost everything God's really studying almost everything God's really studying almost everything God's word had to say word had to say word had to say about our our finances. It has so much about our our finances. It has so much about our our finances. It has so much to say. to say. to say. And I'll never forget we signed up for And I'll never forget we signed up for And I'll never forget we signed up for this um at the time it was Larry this um at the time it was Larry this um at the time it was Larry Burkett. Burkett. Burkett. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Larry Burkett who's a huge I mean, Um Larry Burkett who's a huge I mean, Um Larry Burkett who's a huge I mean, and you know, these other guys Howard and you know, these other guys Howard and you know, these other guys Howard Dayton, Ron Blue had written so much Dayton, Ron Blue had written so much Dayton, Ron Blue had written so much good material. We were going through a good material. We were going through a good material. We were going through a class, Crown Financial, which we we class, Crown Financial, which we we class, Crown Financial, which we we signed up for him like immediately signed up for him like immediately signed up for him like immediately trying to get into God's word. And I trying to get into God's word. And I trying to get into God's word. And I will never forget what the the very will never forget what the the very will never forget what the the very first like chapter in this book we're first like chapter in this book we're first like chapter in this book we're in, the very first chapter is all about in, the very first chapter is all about in, the very first chapter is all about ownership.

ownership. ownership. And the summary from scripture is And the summary from scripture is And the summary from scripture is you don't own jack. you don't own jack. you don't own jack. Nothing you have Nothing you have Nothing you have belongs to you or even came from you. It belongs to you or even came from you. It belongs to you or even came from you. It all came from God and all belongs to all came from God and all belongs to all came from God and all belongs to him. him. him. And I remember looking at Jamie and her And I remember looking at Jamie and her And I remember looking at Jamie and her looking at me and going like looking at me and going like looking at me and going like that is so foreign to me. I've never that is so foreign to me. I've never that is so foreign to me. I've never heard that in my life. That is not how heard that in my life. That is not how heard that in my life. That is not how we operate. We operate as if we operate. We operate as if we operate. We operate as if we did this, we're making this happen, we did this, we're making this happen, we did this, we're making this happen, it all belongs to us, so we call the it all belongs to us, so we call the it all belongs to us, so we call the shots. shots. shots. And that And that And that you know, one one concept led to so many you know, one one concept led to so many you know, one one concept led to so many other biblical concepts that changed our other biblical concepts that changed our other biblical concepts that changed our whole It is God's greatest work in our whole It is God's greatest work in our whole It is God's greatest work in our life life life is what he's taught us and what we tried is what he's taught us and what we tried is what he's taught us and what we tried to put in place when it comes to our to put in place when it comes to our to put in place when it comes to our finances. We feel like it saved our finances. We feel like it saved our finances. We feel like it saved our marriage. marriage. marriage. Oh, for sure. For sure. Oh, for sure. For sure. Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It It really is the foundation of what It It really is the foundation of what It It really is the foundation of what we believe about everything, which is we believe about everything, which is we believe about everything, which is stewardship. stewardship. stewardship. What was your What was your What was your understanding of money entering into understanding of money entering into understanding of money entering into your marriage, making great money as a your marriage, making great money as a your marriage, making great money as a software engineer? software engineer? software engineer? Yeah, great money. Um Yeah, great money. Um Yeah, great money. Um so fortunate. I got out of school with so fortunate. I got out of school with so fortunate. I got out of school with no debt, so we just hit the ground no debt, so we just hit the ground no debt, so we just hit the ground running. Um running. Um running. Um I watched my grandparents and my parents I watched my grandparents and my parents I watched my grandparents and my parents be incredibly generous. So, generosity be incredibly generous. So, generosity be incredibly generous. So, generosity And you didn't grow up with little. You And you didn't grow up with little. You And you didn't grow up with little. You grew up upper middle class grew up upper middle class grew up upper middle class middle class.

middle class. middle class. Absolutely. Well, but it also caused Absolutely. Well, but it also caused Absolutely. Well, but it also caused other problems because like I said, um I other problems because like I said, um I other problems because like I said, um I didn't really need it I didn't really didn't really need it I didn't really didn't really need it I didn't really need Jesus, right? need Jesus, right? need Jesus, right? Cuz you had it. Cuz you had it. Cuz you had it. I had everything I needed and so that I had everything I needed and so that I had everything I needed and so that was sort of my background until I was 19 was sort of my background until I was 19 was sort of my background until I was 19 years old is I didn't need a savior and years old is I didn't need a savior and years old is I didn't need a savior and now we got into this financial situation now we got into this financial situation now we got into this financial situation where I we became the savior again. And where I we became the savior again. And where I we became the savior again. And so trying to meet all the financial so trying to meet all the financial so trying to meet all the financial demands that we were creating. So, um demands that we were creating. So, um demands that we were creating. So, um very quickly you kind of slipped back very quickly you kind of slipped back very quickly you kind of slipped back into the I own everything. I drive. I into the I own everything. I drive. I into the I own everything. I drive. I will just work harder, earn more, spend will just work harder, earn more, spend will just work harder, earn more, spend harder. And so, I very much also grew up harder. And so, I very much also grew up harder. And so, I very much also grew up in a probably a house of in a probably a house of in a probably a house of overconsumption, where we just had overconsumption, where we just had overconsumption, where we just had everything we needed. We wanted to go on everything we needed. We wanted to go on everything we needed. We wanted to go on vacation, we did it. We wanted to buy vacation, we did it. We wanted to buy vacation, we did it. We wanted to buy it, we did it. Um, and so this was a it it, we did it. Um, and so this was a it it, we did it. Um, and so this was a it took a lot of took a lot of took a lot of um, unlearning for both of us to really um, unlearning for both of us to really um, unlearning for both of us to really like, okay, here's how you grew up, like, okay, here's how you grew up, like, okay, here's how you grew up, which was vastly different than how I which was vastly different than how I which was vastly different than how I grew up. How do we want this marriage of grew up. How do we want this marriage of grew up. How do we want this marriage of ours to work together? ours to work together? ours to work together? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, we talked a lot in the previous So, we talked a lot in the previous So, we talked a lot in the previous episode, Ashley, about the culture at episode, Ashley, about the culture at episode, Ashley, about the culture at Intel. This is not so much a reflection Intel. This is not so much a reflection Intel. This is not so much a reflection of Intel, but probably just co-workers.

of Intel, but probably just co-workers. of Intel, but probably just co-workers. Did you see most of your co-workers Did you see most of your co-workers Did you see most of your co-workers falling into the same consumption trap, falling into the same consumption trap, falling into the same consumption trap, like we're making bank, therefore we like we're making bank, therefore we like we're making bank, therefore we spend? spend? spend? Absolutely, because this was this was Absolutely, because this was this was Absolutely, because this was this was the heyday of Intel. So, not only are do the heyday of Intel. So, not only are do the heyday of Intel. So, not only are do we have these salaries that are really we have these salaries that are really we have these salaries that are really large, but now part of your compensation large, but now part of your compensation large, but now part of your compensation package is stock options and and a bonus package is stock options and and a bonus package is stock options and and a bonus structure. So, when the company's doing structure. So, when the company's doing structure. So, when the company's doing well, you're getting these huge bonus well, you're getting these huge bonus well, you're getting these huge bonus checks. You're getting stock options. checks. You're getting stock options. checks. You're getting stock options. What would a bonus check have been in What would a bonus check have been in What would a bonus check have been in those those those So, we're talking like, you know, let's So, we're talking like, you know, let's So, we're talking like, you know, let's let's say you're getting a bonus check let's say you're getting a bonus check let's say you're getting a bonus check of, you know, 20, 30 of, you know, 20, 30 of, you know, 20, 30 You know, you might have a 20 $20,000 You know, you might have a 20 $20,000 You know, you might have a 20 $20,000 bonus check. bonus check. bonus check. Times two. Times two. Times two. Times two. Times two. Times two. Times two. Times two. Times two. So, it's like you can $40,000 just So, it's like you can $40,000 just So, it's like you can $40,000 just dropped in. dropped in. dropped in. Just bam. And then it's it can be gone. Just bam. And then it's it can be gone. Just bam. And then it's it can be gone. It can be if if you're on the It can be if if you're on the It can be if if you're on the consumption train, here's where it consumption train, here's where it consumption train, here's where it doesn't matter how much you make. doesn't matter how much you make. doesn't matter how much you make. You can always consume it. You can always consume it. You can always consume it. And and you know, when we So, this And and you know, when we So, this And and you know, when we So, this became, you know, you're watching became, you know, you're watching became, you know, you're watching everybody. You know, we we'd laugh everybody. You know, we we'd laugh everybody. You know, we we'd laugh because when, you know, when the the because when, you know, when the the because when, you know, when the the stock would split or there'd be a bonus stock would split or there'd be a bonus stock would split or there'd be a bonus check, you know, you know, the next week check, you know, you know, the next week check, you know, you know, the next week everyone's showing up with new cars.

everyone's showing up with new cars. everyone's showing up with new cars. Right. Right. Right. I mean, you know, these new cars were I mean, you know, these new cars were I mean, you know, these new cars were rolling in the parking lot, right? rolling in the parking lot, right? rolling in the parking lot, right? Because it's like everybody everybody Because it's like everybody everybody Because it's like everybody everybody did this. And so, did this. And so, did this. And so, it it just, you know, the biggest thing it it just, you know, the biggest thing it it just, you know, the biggest thing that it it taught us is that making more that it it taught us is that making more that it it taught us is that making more is not the answer is not the answer is not the answer to your happiness, the consumption to your happiness, the consumption to your happiness, the consumption thing. What What shifted when we looked thing. What What shifted when we looked thing. What What shifted when we looked at it at it at it really biblically is we shifted our really biblically is we shifted our really biblically is we shifted our whole life whole life whole life um and it was gradual, it didn't happen um and it was gradual, it didn't happen um and it was gradual, it didn't happen overnight. We shifted our whole life overnight. We shifted our whole life overnight. We shifted our whole life from consuming from consuming from consuming to giving. to giving. to giving. Wow. Wow. Wow. That that became the shift that changed That that became the shift that changed That that became the shift that changed everything because we didn't own it all, everything because we didn't own it all, everything because we didn't own it all, we were just stewarding what God gave we were just stewarding what God gave we were just stewarding what God gave us. And as stewards, we needed to ask us. And as stewards, we needed to ask us. And as stewards, we needed to ask not what do we want to do with this? not what do we want to do with this? not what do we want to do with this? God, what do what do you want to do with God, what do what do you want to do with God, what do what do you want to do with this? And how can we continue to answer this? And how can we continue to answer this? And how can we continue to answer that question and be invested in your that question and be invested in your that question and be invested in your kingdom? And that that one thing, I mean kingdom? And that that one thing, I mean kingdom? And that that one thing, I mean we can go as much as you want into that, we can go as much as you want into that, we can go as much as you want into that, but Carrie, but we would just say that but Carrie, but we would just say that but Carrie, but we would just say that one decision one decision one decision it changed our life completely. Um even it changed our life completely. Um even it changed our life completely. Um even even on the leadership thing side of even on the leadership thing side of even on the leadership thing side of things, it it it leads into.

things, it it it leads into. things, it it it leads into. So, I want to really dive into the So, I want to really dive into the So, I want to really dive into the solution, but I want to talk about the solution, but I want to talk about the solution, but I want to talk about the chaos of your 20s, early 20s, mid 20s. chaos of your 20s, early 20s, mid 20s. chaos of your 20s, early 20s, mid 20s. So, money was one of it. So, money was one of it. So, money was one of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Intimacy. Intimacy. Intimacy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What What happened with that? Jamie, What What happened with that? Jamie, What What happened with that? Jamie, maybe we'll start with you. maybe we'll start with you. maybe we'll start with you. Yeah, I think we Yeah, I think we Yeah, I think we um we're just whereas he is um we're just whereas he is um we're just whereas he is um um um heavily opinionated, is that fair to heavily opinionated, is that fair to heavily opinionated, is that fair to say? I am stubborn. say? I am stubborn. say? I am stubborn. So, you put someone who has a lot of So, you put someone who has a lot of So, you put someone who has a lot of opinions and someone who's really opinions and someone who's really opinions and someone who's really stubborn together, and we both think stubborn together, and we both think stubborn together, and we both think we're right. And so, I think it was just we're right. And so, I think it was just we're right. And so, I think it was just really this battle of self. really this battle of self. really this battle of self. We were putting our own needs and our We were putting our own needs and our We were putting our own needs and our own desires and our own wants before the own desires and our own wants before the own desires and our own wants before the needs of who God gave us this great gift needs of who God gave us this great gift needs of who God gave us this great gift to share it with. And I think that was to share it with. And I think that was to share it with. And I think that was That was I how we It was just became That was I how we It was just became That was I how we It was just became this process of mu- mutuality. Like, how this process of mu- mutuality. Like, how this process of mu- mutuality. Like, how do we serve each other? And I think do we serve each other? And I think do we serve each other? And I think recognizing our differences was probably recognizing our differences was probably recognizing our differences was probably the very first place to start where um the very first place to start where um the very first place to start where um I'm like a crock-pot, man. It takes a I'm like a crock-pot, man. It takes a I'm like a crock-pot, man. It takes a long time for me to warm up and he is long time for me to warm up and he is long time for me to warm up and he is like a microwave. He can like like a microwave. He can like like a microwave. He can like Freddy Freddy Freddy go at any time. And so we just had to do go at any time. And so we just had to do go at any time. And so we just had to do a lot of a lot of a lot of You called me a called me like a hot You called me a called me like a hot You called me a called me like a hot pocket.

pocket. pocket. I am saying. I am saying. I am saying. And so we had to have a lot of And so we had to have a lot of And so we had to have a lot of conversations of like what does intimacy conversations of like what does intimacy conversations of like what does intimacy look like to you? And we realized that look like to you? And we realized that look like to you? And we realized that like and we have very different ideas of like and we have very different ideas of like and we have very different ideas of what intimacy looks like. For me what intimacy looks like. For me what intimacy looks like. For me intimacy is like non-sexual affection. intimacy is like non-sexual affection. intimacy is like non-sexual affection. Like I want you to hug me and expect Like I want you to hug me and expect Like I want you to hug me and expect nothing. nothing. nothing. But you you tell some tell most guys But you you tell some tell most guys But you you tell some tell most guys like yeah, she needs some non-sexual like yeah, she needs some non-sexual like yeah, she needs some non-sexual affection. The guy's like affection. The guy's like affection. The guy's like What is sorry sorry, what is what is What is sorry sorry, what is what is What is sorry sorry, what is what is that? that? that? It's exactly what it sounds like. It's It's exactly what it sounds like. It's It's exactly what it sounds like. It's non-sexual non-sexual non-sexual affection that she needs which is so affection that she needs which is so affection that she needs which is so foreign to you a lot of sometimes the foreign to you a lot of sometimes the foreign to you a lot of sometimes the way God's designed us so differently and way God's designed us so differently and way God's designed us so differently and he really has. he really has. he really has. I needed I need to recognize that um I needed I need to recognize that um I needed I need to recognize that um how God has wired him. That that is how how God has wired him. That that is how how God has wired him. That that is how God has wired him. He is not broken God has wired him. He is not broken God has wired him. He is not broken because he's not wired like me. And so because he's not wired like me. And so because he's not wired like me. And so uh he needs to feel wanted and affirmed uh he needs to feel wanted and affirmed uh he needs to feel wanted and affirmed and all of those things and like let's and all of those things and like let's and all of those things and like let's talk leadership grounding as a man and I talk leadership grounding as a man and I talk leadership grounding as a man and I actually have responsibility for a lot actually have responsibility for a lot actually have responsibility for a lot of that. Just to um for who he is and of that. Just to um for who he is and of that. Just to um for who he is and that goes from everything from speaking that goes from everything from speaking that goes from everything from speaking life into him. Actually also to our life into him. Actually also to our life into him. Actually also to our intimate relationship because he feel he intimate relationship because he feel he intimate relationship because he feel he says all the time like he can conquer says all the time like he can conquer says all the time like he can conquer the world. If that one area of our life the world. If that one area of our life the world. If that one area of our life is right, he can conquer the world.

is right, he can conquer the world. is right, he can conquer the world. Isn't that true? Isn't that true? Isn't that true? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's I mean I think Yeah. Yeah, I think it's I mean I think Yeah. Yeah, I think it's I mean I think we we've spoken pretty openly on this we we've spoken pretty openly on this we we've spoken pretty openly on this topic, Carrie, even with our even with topic, Carrie, even with our even with topic, Carrie, even with our even with our church because our church because our church because you know, we want to take some of the you know, we want to take some of the you know, we want to take some of the stigma away from it and you know, not in stigma away from it and you know, not in stigma away from it and you know, not in a weird way that you're over over a weird way that you're over over a weird way that you're over over speaking on this in the church which you speaking on this in the church which you speaking on this in the church which you know, you you could get weird on it. But know, you you could get weird on it. But know, you you could get weird on it. But you know what I'm saying? But but I you know what I'm saying? But but I you know what I'm saying? But but I think I think what we have to realize is think I think what we have to realize is think I think what we have to realize is that is our job as church leaders is to that is our job as church leaders is to that is our job as church leaders is to address address address biblically also things that people are biblically also things that people are biblically also things that people are dealing with. This is something that the dealing with. This is something that the dealing with. This is something that the scripture addresses, right? I mean, 1 scripture addresses, right? I mean, 1 scripture addresses, right? I mean, 1 Corinthians chapter 7, the church in Corinthians chapter 7, the church in Corinthians chapter 7, the church in Corinth, which if you know the history Corinth, which if you know the history Corinth, which if you know the history of Corinth, this highly crazy of Corinth, this highly crazy of Corinth, this highly crazy over-sexualized, broken society, right? over-sexualized, broken society, right? over-sexualized, broken society, right? Right on the coast where you have ships Right on the coast where you have ships Right on the coast where you have ships stopping all the time and there's stopping all the time and there's stopping all the time and there's prostitution and there's all sorts of prostitution and there's all sorts of prostitution and there's all sorts of sexual brokenness. So, the church in sexual brokenness. So, the church in sexual brokenness. So, the church in Corinth writes to Paul and says, "Hey, Corinth writes to Paul and says, "Hey, Corinth writes to Paul and says, "Hey, we got all these questions when it comes we got all these questions when it comes we got all these questions when it comes to sex. Can you help answer these?" And to sex. Can you help answer these?" And to sex. Can you help answer these?" And Paul weighs in in a way that is Paul weighs in in a way that is Paul weighs in in a way that is incredibly helpful that I think if we incredibly helpful that I think if we incredibly helpful that I think if we want to help couples navigate this thing want to help couples navigate this thing want to help couples navigate this thing that that that really is a is is that that that really is a is is that that that really is a is is something that affects so many couples, something that affects so many couples, something that affects so many couples, we need to weigh into it in a healthy we need to weigh into it in a healthy we need to weigh into it in a healthy way, too, cuz the stats I think last way, too, cuz the stats I think last way, too, cuz the stats I think last time I looked 75% of couples would say time I looked 75% of couples would say time I looked 75% of couples would say they don't have a mutually satisfying they don't have a mutually satisfying they don't have a mutually satisfying intimacy life.

intimacy life. intimacy life. We are learning that as we build into We are learning that as we build into We are learning that as we build into more and more young couples and as, you more and more young couples and as, you more and more young couples and as, you know, I read on the subject. What is know, I read on the subject. What is know, I read on the subject. What is surprising to me is how many couples, surprising to me is how many couples, surprising to me is how many couples, even pre-kids, even pre-kids, even pre-kids, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. are really struggling sexually in terms are really struggling sexually in terms are really struggling sexually in terms of their um intimate life. of their um intimate life. of their um intimate life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are you seeing? You pastor a huge What are you seeing? You pastor a huge What are you seeing? You pastor a huge church. church. church. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are you seeing in the next What are you seeing in the next What are you seeing in the next generation when it comes to sexuality? generation when it comes to sexuality? generation when it comes to sexuality? Yeah. Well, I think Yeah. Well, I think Yeah. Well, I think you know, first of all, there I think you know, first of all, there I think you know, first of all, there I think there's always been brokenness on the in there's always been brokenness on the in there's always been brokenness on the in this area across the generations. It's this area across the generations. It's this area across the generations. It's always been. So, it's not it's not like always been. So, it's not it's not like always been. So, it's not it's not like it's new with the next generation. This it's new with the next generation. This it's new with the next generation. This has been This has been because God has been This has been because God has been This has been because God designed us very differently here that designed us very differently here that designed us very differently here that we've got a lot to figure out and unless we've got a lot to figure out and unless we've got a lot to figure out and unless you're willing to lay down a lot of your you're willing to lay down a lot of your you're willing to lay down a lot of your pride and selfishness on this, you pride and selfishness on this, you pride and selfishness on this, you you're not going to take steps. But, you're not going to take steps. But, you're not going to take steps. But, with the next generation, I think, you with the next generation, I think, you with the next generation, I think, you know, if we look across the church, you know, if we look across the church, you know, if we look across the church, you know, what the next generation walks know, what the next generation walks know, what the next generation walks into so much today into so much today into so much today is you've got is you've got is you've got I think a lot of men that would have I think a lot of men that would have I think a lot of men that would have some, you know, pronog- deep pornography some, you know, pronog- deep pornography some, you know, pronog- deep pornography addictions that they're walking into addictions that they're walking into addictions that they're walking into marriage with marriage with marriage with that I think a lot of guys might think that I think a lot of guys might think that I think a lot of guys might think when I get married this probably just when I get married this probably just when I get married this probably just magically goes away.

magically goes away. magically goes away. It does not. In fact, it can actually It does not. In fact, it can actually It does not. In fact, it can actually get a lot worse when you get married and get a lot worse when you get married and get a lot worse when you get married and all of a sudden you you you hit some of all of a sudden you you you hit some of all of a sudden you you you hit some of the disappointments of like, oh, the disappointments of like, oh, the disappointments of like, oh, this is, you know, or you know, you this is, you know, or you know, you this is, you know, or you know, you start having start having start having you know, a person like, you're you're you know, a person like, you're you're you know, a person like, you're you're not this is not exactly what I thought not this is not exactly what I thought not this is not exactly what I thought was going to it was going to be like. was going to it was going to be like. was going to it was going to be like. And then women, you know, you can maybe And then women, you know, you can maybe And then women, you know, you can maybe more speak to what some of the younger more speak to what some of the younger more speak to what some of the younger women are walking into marriage as well. women are walking into marriage as well. women are walking into marriage as well. it's also fair to say women have porn it's also fair to say women have porn it's also fair to say women have porn addictions, too. Right? In just this addictions, too. Right? In just this addictions, too. Right? In just this unrealistic expectation of what marriage unrealistic expectation of what marriage unrealistic expectation of what marriage is or is not. I think we all we all at is or is not. I think we all we all at is or is not. I think we all we all at some level can relate with that. I think some level can relate with that. I think some level can relate with that. I think we all sort of thought marriage would be we all sort of thought marriage would be we all sort of thought marriage would be one thing and then we got married. one thing and then we got married. one thing and then we got married. And so that sort of applies to And so that sort of applies to And so that sort of applies to everything and so I think women have everything and so I think women have everything and so I think women have unrealistic expectations that these men unrealistic expectations that these men unrealistic expectations that these men will meet every single desire of their will meet every single desire of their will meet every single desire of their heart. And heart. And heart. And and that they and that they and that they if they don't want to, that they should if they don't want to, that they should if they don't want to, that they should have the say. And that's a hard that's a have the say. And that's a hard that's a have the say. And that's a hard that's a that's a it's more of a converse I think that's a it's more of a converse I think that's a it's more of a converse I think it's a conversation more than more for it's a conversation more than more for it's a conversation more than more for us, more of a conversation than a fast us, more of a conversation than a fast us, more of a conversation than a fast and hard rule. Like I I was there at one and hard rule. Like I I was there at one and hard rule. Like I I was there at one point. I was like, I don't want to. Um I point. I was like, I don't want to. Um I point. I was like, I don't want to. Um I don't want to talk and I don't want to don't want to talk and I don't want to don't want to talk and I don't want to talk about it. And because I said that, talk about it. And because I said that, talk about it. And because I said that, the conversation's over. And it really the conversation's over. And it really the conversation's over. And it really became a more of a conversation.

became a more of a conversation. became a more of a conversation. want to talk about your intimacy issues. want to talk about your intimacy issues. want to talk about your intimacy issues. No. No. No. No. No, he didn't. And No. No, he didn't. And No. No, he didn't. And No, cuz neither of us were really No, cuz neither of us were really No, cuz neither of us were really raised. I joke with my parents that I'm raised. I joke with my parents that I'm raised. I joke with my parents that I'm still waiting for the conversation. Um and so I think we weren't raised that Um and so I think we weren't raised that way. So we're just trying to I think way. So we're just trying to I think way. So we're just trying to I think open a dialogue with people. I think open a dialogue with people. I think open a dialogue with people. I think that's where it starts. So many couples, that's where it starts. So many couples, that's where it starts. So many couples, so many families. We talk we actually so many families. We talk we actually so many families. We talk we actually talk about it with our kids a lot talk about it with our kids a lot talk about it with our kids a lot already. We like, what questions do you already. We like, what questions do you already. We like, what questions do you have? I think that's a place have? I think that's a place have? I think that's a place How did How do overcome that stigma? How did How do overcome that stigma? How did How do overcome that stigma? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. I think just seeing I think seeing that I think just seeing I think seeing that I think just seeing I think seeing that the brokenness in our own marriage and the brokenness in our own marriage and the brokenness in our own marriage and that if we don't overcome some of that that if we don't overcome some of that that if we don't overcome some of that that same stigma, especially with talk that same stigma, especially with talk that same stigma, especially with talk just talking about their kids and just talking about their kids and just talking about their kids and others, they're going to end up the same others, they're going to end up the same others, they're going to end up the same brokenness. But with ourselves, the brokenness. But with ourselves, the brokenness. But with ourselves, the thing about this topic of intimacy thing about this topic of intimacy thing about this topic of intimacy is it gets heated so fast. is it gets heated so fast. is it gets heated so fast. It's very emo- it's very it's a very It's very emo- it's very it's a very It's very emo- it's very it's a very emotional thing for both people. So you emotional thing for both people. So you emotional thing for both people. So you So getting to a place where you can have So getting to a place where you can have So getting to a place where you can have a conversation that is not as heated a conversation that is not as heated a conversation that is not as heated um cuz sometimes when you're having the um cuz sometimes when you're having the um cuz sometimes when you're having the conversations in the moment of of when conversations in the moment of of when conversations in the moment of of when it's not working it's not working it's not working Yeah. The best time to talk about sex is Yeah. The best time to talk about sex is Yeah. The best time to talk about sex is not when you're trying to have sex.

not when you're trying to have sex. not when you're trying to have sex. That's right. That's right. That's right. So you got to talk about it offhand, So you got to talk about it offhand, So you got to talk about it offhand, which that becomes sometimes awkward if which that becomes sometimes awkward if which that becomes sometimes awkward if you're not nor- normally How do you you're not nor- normally How do you you're not nor- normally How do you bring that conversation up? Hey, can we bring that conversation up? Hey, can we bring that conversation up? Hey, can we talk about this? talk about this? talk about this? And that's where again, that's where our And that's where again, that's where our And that's where again, that's where our passion for the church is. Can we open passion for the church is. Can we open passion for the church is. Can we open some of those conversations and take some of those conversations and take some of those conversations and take people to a biblical view where Paul people to a biblical view where Paul people to a biblical view where Paul leans so much into Hey, in in marriage, leans so much into Hey, in in marriage, leans so much into Hey, in in marriage, we want to strip strip away the we want to strip strip away the we want to strip strip away the selfishness. We want to have mutuality selfishness. We want to have mutuality selfishness. We want to have mutuality in this area, which means both of us in this area, which means both of us in this area, which means both of us have to bend. have to bend. have to bend. And um you know, what's the what's the And um you know, what's the what's the And um you know, what's the what's the quote? If you ever wondered if you were quote? If you ever wondered if you were quote? If you ever wondered if you were selfish, get married. selfish, get married. selfish, get married. You know, I think I think there's You know, I think I think there's You know, I think I think there's another quote by another quote by another quote by Betsy and Gary. I'm forgetting their Betsy and Gary. I'm forgetting their Betsy and Gary. I'm forgetting their their last names, but they say one of their last names, but they say one of their last names, but they say one of the greatest gift uh wedding gifts God the greatest gift uh wedding gifts God the greatest gift uh wedding gifts God gave you gave you gave you was a full-length mirror called your was a full-length mirror called your was a full-length mirror called your spouse. spouse. spouse. It's like you just get to you get a view It's like you just get to you get a view It's like you just get to you get a view in the your own like selfishness. in the your own like selfishness. in the your own like selfishness. Especially in this area, especially. Especially in this area, especially. Especially in this area, especially. This is sometimes where our selfishness This is sometimes where our selfishness This is sometimes where our selfishness comes out the most where Paul just goes comes out the most where Paul just goes comes out the most where Paul just goes over and over again. He's like, "No, over and over again. He's like, "No, over and over again. He's like, "No, guys, I want you to I want you to guys, I want you to I want you to guys, I want you to I want you to actually have a place where you you you actually have a place where you you you actually have a place where you you you begin to serve each other here." And begin to serve each other here." And begin to serve each other here." And that takes a lot of work.

that takes a lot of work. that takes a lot of work. You know, just how we're wired. You know, just how we're wired. You know, just how we're wired. Well, and that gets us to the third Well, and that gets us to the third Well, and that gets us to the third thing, money, sex, power. thing, money, sex, power. thing, money, sex, power. How did power I mean, you're both How did power I mean, you're both How did power I mean, you're both leaders, you're both wired with strong leaders, you're both wired with strong leaders, you're both wired with strong opinions, both smart, opinions, both smart, opinions, both smart, um successful careers. um successful careers. um successful careers. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. How did power become a dynamic How did power become a dynamic How did power become a dynamic Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. in the early days of your marriage? in the early days of your marriage? in the early days of your marriage? Well, I think we, like we said, we both Well, I think we, like we said, we both Well, I think we, like we said, we both wanted our way. We both thought we knew wanted our way. We both thought we knew wanted our way. We both thought we knew the right way. We had, when you have two the right way. We had, when you have two the right way. We had, when you have two jobs, same hours, same, similar jobs, same hours, same, similar jobs, same hours, same, similar salaries, you have competing priorities, salaries, you have competing priorities, salaries, you have competing priorities, and what what priority trumps what? And and what what priority trumps what? And and what what priority trumps what? And so, I think the lesson we learned in so, I think the lesson we learned in so, I think the lesson we learned in that is just the power of unity. What that is just the power of unity. What that is just the power of unity. What that we would rather make a, that we would rather make a, that we would rather make a, um, um, um, dis- we would rather bend in the other dis- we would rather bend in the other dis- we would rather bend in the other person's direction for the sake of unity person's direction for the sake of unity person's direction for the sake of unity than really have our own way. So, we than really have our own way. So, we than really have our own way. So, we will take like a B+ decision if you're will take like a B+ decision if you're will take like a B+ decision if you're more united over an A+ decision that one more united over an A+ decision that one more united over an A+ decision that one of us is just locked and loaded on. of us is just locked and loaded on. of us is just locked and loaded on. Well, that's great, but you didn't get Well, that's great, but you didn't get Well, that's great, but you didn't get there overnight.

there overnight. there overnight. We didn't. We didn't. We didn't. So, what were what were the sparks like? So, what were what were the sparks like? So, what were what were the sparks like? Like, take us into those moments, cuz Like, take us into those moments, cuz Like, take us into those moments, cuz Tony and I, she wrote a book about it. Tony and I, she wrote a book about it. Tony and I, she wrote a book about it. Right? We've had lots of Right? We've had lots of Right? We've had lots of arguments. arguments. arguments. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We still have arguments. They're better, We still have arguments. They're better, We still have arguments. They're better, and they're different than they used to and they're different than they used to and they're different than they used to be, but you know, when you marry a be, but you know, when you marry a be, but you know, when you marry a strong personality, there's part of me strong personality, there's part of me strong personality, there's part of me that wishes that whatever I said, Tony that wishes that whatever I said, Tony that wishes that whatever I said, Tony would just be like, "Oh, yeah, 100%." I would just be like, "Oh, yeah, 100%." I would just be like, "Oh, yeah, 100%." I dated somebody like that once. dated somebody like that once. dated somebody like that once. And after about 20 minutes, I didn't And after about 20 minutes, I didn't And after about 20 minutes, I didn't respect the person. And then, you know, respect the person. And then, you know, respect the person. And then, you know, I married Tony, who's so sweet, and you I married Tony, who's so sweet, and you I married Tony, who's so sweet, and you wouldn't know that about her unless you wouldn't know that about her unless you wouldn't know that about her unless you know her really well, but she has got know her really well, but she has got know her really well, but she has got that steel spine, and it drives me that steel spine, and it drives me that steel spine, and it drives me crazy. Oh, she's sharp. crazy. Oh, she's sharp. crazy. Oh, she's sharp. Well, let's let me see if you can relate Well, let's let me see if you can relate Well, let's let me see if you can relate with this. I'll I'll tell you our cycle. with this. I'll I'll tell you our cycle. with this. I'll I'll tell you our cycle. Okay? This was the cycle we got into, Okay? This was the cycle we got into, Okay? This was the cycle we got into, and it was the same cycle all the time. and it was the same cycle all the time. and it was the same cycle all the time. There's an issue in our marriage that we There's an issue in our marriage that we There's an issue in our marriage that we completely disagree with, or we completely disagree with, or we completely disagree with, or we completely disagree on. So, what both of completely disagree on. So, what both of completely disagree on. So, what both of us dig our heels in pretty hard. How do us dig our heels in pretty hard. How do us dig our heels in pretty hard. How do we dig our heels in? we dig our heels in? we dig our heels in? Uh, Jamie's, uh, is going to get pretty Uh, Jamie's, uh, is going to get pretty Uh, Jamie's, uh, is going to get pretty stubborn on her opinion, which means my stubborn on her opinion, which means my stubborn on her opinion, which means my personality, uh, I'm going to I'm going personality, uh, I'm going to I'm going personality, uh, I'm going to I'm going to power up.

to power up. to power up. You're going to argue her out of her You're going to argue her out of her You're going to argue her out of her stubbornness? stubbornness? stubbornness? And and again, being a preacher, like And and again, being a preacher, like And and again, being a preacher, like I'm pretty good with my words. She calls I'm pretty good with my words. She calls I'm pretty good with my words. She calls it like a verbal fillet. She said, "You it like a verbal fillet. She said, "You it like a verbal fillet. She said, "You would always give me the verbal fillet." would always give me the verbal fillet." would always give me the verbal fillet." So, I would power up with my words to to So, I would power up with my words to to So, I would power up with my words to to convince her how wrong she is. But in convince her how wrong she is. But in convince her how wrong she is. But in the midst of that, what I would do is the midst of that, what I would do is the midst of that, what I would do is Okay, let's just pretend I'm right. Okay, let's just pretend I'm right. Okay, let's just pretend I'm right. Which, you know, that's not not not very Which, you know, that's not not not very Which, you know, that's not not not very often, but let's just pretend I was often, but let's just pretend I was often, but let's just pretend I was right. right. right. You can say the right thing in the wrong You can say the right thing in the wrong You can say the right thing in the wrong way way way and be wrong. and be wrong. and be wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, our cycle was she would get So, our cycle was she would get So, our cycle was she would get stubborn, I would power up, I would say stubborn, I would power up, I would say stubborn, I would power up, I would say it in such a it in such a it in such a brutal, brutal, brutal, unloving, unloving, unloving, harsh, I mean, nasty. You know how to harsh, I mean, nasty. You know how to harsh, I mean, nasty. You know how to push each other's buttons. I would say push each other's buttons. I would say push each other's buttons. I would say it so nasty to her that then what I it so nasty to her that then what I it so nasty to her that then what I didn't realize is she would shut down. didn't realize is she would shut down. didn't realize is she would shut down. She would shut down cuz now now the She would shut down cuz now now the She would shut down cuz now now the issue's no longer the issue, the issue issue's no longer the issue, the issue issue's no longer the issue, the issue is how I said it. is how I said it. is how I said it. And so, she would shut down. So, we And so, she would shut down. So, we And so, she would shut down. So, we can't even have the conversation can't even have the conversation can't even have the conversation anymore. So, our vicious cycle is like anymore. So, our vicious cycle is like anymore. So, our vicious cycle is like maybe get stubborn, I power up, shut maybe get stubborn, I power up, shut maybe get stubborn, I power up, shut down, stubborn and go and then down, stubborn and go and then down, stubborn and go and then I My biggest question to Jamie over the I My biggest question to Jamie over the I My biggest question to Jamie over the years is I would I would say early on, I years is I would I would say early on, I years is I would I would say early on, I would say, "Why does it take you" would say, "Why does it take you" would say, "Why does it take you" She'd come back maybe a couple of days She'd come back maybe a couple of days She'd come back maybe a couple of days later and say, "Hey, later and say, "Hey, later and say, "Hey, uh uh uh I'm sorry. I think I think we can You I'm sorry. I think I think we can You I'm sorry. I think I think we can You may have been right on this." Where I may have been right on this." Where I may have been right on this." Where I was like, "What? Why did it take you so was like, "What? Why did it take you so was like, "What? Why did it take you so long to come back?" And she finally long to come back?" And she finally long to come back?" And she finally says, "Cuz the way you say it."

says, "Cuz the way you say it." says, "Cuz the way you say it." So, I I finally had to realize like if So, I I finally had to realize like if So, I I finally had to realize like if if I want my wife to actually even hear if I want my wife to actually even hear if I want my wife to actually even hear me, me, me, I have to really watch my tone and my I have to really watch my tone and my I have to really watch my tone and my demeanor. And that you know, that was demeanor. And that you know, that was demeanor. And that you know, that was that was that was I know that was for that was that was I know that was for that was that was I know that was for me. I don't know anything else you'd add me. I don't know anything else you'd add me. I don't know anything else you'd add on that. on that. on that. think for me, I mean, it's all about think for me, I mean, it's all about think for me, I mean, it's all about pride at the end of the day. The root in pride at the end of the day. The root in pride at the end of the day. The root in both of us is pride. And I would I would both of us is pride. And I would I would both of us is pride. And I would I would be so locked and loaded on the way he be so locked and loaded on the way he be so locked and loaded on the way he said it. And and I honestly, this is said it. And and I honestly, this is said it. And and I honestly, this is still a struggle for me because I get so still a struggle for me because I get so still a struggle for me because I get so locked and loaded in the way he says it, locked and loaded in the way he says it, locked and loaded in the way he says it, I fail to see where I've fallen short in I fail to see where I've fallen short in I fail to see where I've fallen short in the process because he's maybe like a the process because he's maybe like a the process because he's maybe like a eight on the offensive scale that eight on the offensive scale that eight on the offensive scale that anything I've done sort of gets a broad anything I've done sort of gets a broad anything I've done sort of gets a broad brush pass. And that's that's also just brush pass. And that's that's also just brush pass. And that's that's also just pride. So we we can get into it like but pride. So we we can get into it like but pride. So we we can get into it like but I'm so thankful we actually did I'm so thankful we actually did I'm so thankful we actually did so much work early. so much work early. so much work early. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We had to. I don't think I were I don't We had to. I don't think I were I don't We had to. I don't think I were I don't think we were going to make it. think we were going to make it. think we were going to make it. Yeah, like this is what years one Yeah, like this is what years one Yeah, like this is what years one through five, one through 10?

through five, one through 10? through five, one through 10? One one through five. One one through five. One one through five. five especially. five especially. five especially. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but then we still we still work on Yeah, but then we still we still work on Yeah, but then we still we still work on it to this day. it to this day. it to this day. Oh, Tony and I too. And we're 35 years. Oh, Tony and I too. And we're 35 years. Oh, Tony and I too. And we're 35 years. You guys are 25, we're 35. You guys are 25, we're 35. You guys are 25, we're 35. Uh I think ours were probably the worst Uh I think ours were probably the worst Uh I think ours were probably the worst years were 10 to 15. Thereabouts. Um years were 10 to 15. Thereabouts. Um years were 10 to 15. Thereabouts. Um seems to be really rough for a lot of seems to be really rough for a lot of seems to be really rough for a lot of people when the kids are in middle people when the kids are in middle people when the kids are in middle school age. It gets really bad. I don't school age. It gets really bad. I don't school age. It gets really bad. I don't know why that is. Um but I still like know why that is. Um but I still like know why that is. Um but I still like honestly tone? honestly tone? honestly tone? I really have to watch my tone. I can be I really have to watch my tone. I can be I really have to watch my tone. I can be mean. mean. mean. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. And it really hurts Tony. And it really hurts Tony. And it really hurts Tony. Once you got past Once you got past Once you got past I would say teenage years were some I would say teenage years were some I would say teenage years were some teenage years were tough especially the teenage years were tough especially the teenage years were tough especially the first when they first started dating. We first when they first started dating. We first when they first started dating. We had strong opinions about that. had strong opinions about that. had strong opinions about that. And we dug in we dug in we dug in hard And we dug in we dug in we dug in hard And we dug in we dug in we dug in hard on that. on that. on that. Mhm. It reared its head it reared its Mhm. It reared its head it reared its Mhm. It reared its head it reared its head again. head again. head again. That's where That's where That's where You so conflict with your kids or You so conflict with your kids or You so conflict with your kids or conflict between each other? conflict between each other? conflict between each other? Really it was with with each other on Really it was with with each other on Really it was with with each other on how how how views. views. views. views views views And this is where we came back to And this is where we came back to And this is where we came back to you know, we are so convinced more than you know, we are so convinced more than you know, we are so convinced more than ever ever ever that when you have conflicting views that when you have conflicting views that when you have conflicting views if you will bend toward each other to if you will bend toward each other to if you will bend toward each other to make a unified decision, it will always make a unified decision, it will always make a unified decision, it will always be a better decision. The unified be a better decision. The unified be a better decision. The unified decision is always decision is always decision is always the better decision. The way God has the better decision. The way God has the better decision. The way God has designed your marriage to be.

designed your marriage to be. designed your marriage to be. So I want to ask you a question wasn't So I want to ask you a question wasn't So I want to ask you a question wasn't planning on asking, but you know, it was planning on asking, but you know, it was planning on asking, but you know, it was tough when you were at Intel. And you tough when you were at Intel. And you tough when you were at Intel. And you were in ministry, you're both were in ministry, you're both were in ministry, you're both Christians. It's not this idea that, oh, Christians. It's not this idea that, oh, Christians. It's not this idea that, oh, we went into ministry and we weren't in we went into ministry and we weren't in we went into ministry and we weren't in ministry before, of course. Intel you ministry before, of course. Intel you ministry before, of course. Intel you were Christians, you were witnessing at were Christians, you were witnessing at were Christians, you were witnessing at work, etc., etc. work, etc., etc. work, etc., etc. But then you take on leadership at the But then you take on leadership at the But then you take on leadership at the church and in 2017 you become the lead church and in 2017 you become the lead church and in 2017 you become the lead pastor. pastor. pastor. Did you notice a spiritual Did you notice a spiritual Did you notice a spiritual intensification of the conflict, intensification of the conflict, intensification of the conflict, spiritual interference, did it get spiritual interference, did it get spiritual interference, did it get worse? Have you noticed an impact like, worse? Have you noticed an impact like, worse? Have you noticed an impact like, you know, cuz you know, cuz you know, cuz 55,000 people 55,000 people 55,000 people there's a lot riding on this. You guys there's a lot riding on this. You guys there's a lot riding on this. You guys blow up. blow up. blow up. You disintegrate, you do something You disintegrate, you do something You disintegrate, you do something stupid with your life. stupid with your life. stupid with your life. Like there's a lot riding on this. Like there's a lot riding on this. Like there's a lot riding on this. How has that impacted your relationship? How has that impacted your relationship? How has that impacted your relationship? Our relationship, well, I think that's Our relationship, well, I think that's Our relationship, well, I think that's when we talk about our finances how it when we talk about our finances how it when we talk about our finances how it it radically shifted how we view it radically shifted how we view it radically shifted how we view everything and just in that everything and just in that everything and just in that very young 20s very young 20s very young 20s season of life we became stewards.

season of life we became stewards. season of life we became stewards. And that affects every decision we And that affects every decision we And that affects every decision we whether it's financial, personal, how we whether it's financial, personal, how we whether it's financial, personal, how we raise our kids. We raise our kids so we raise our kids. We raise our kids so we raise our kids. We raise our kids so we can release them. Like nothing belongs can release them. Like nothing belongs can release them. Like nothing belongs to us and so we don't view I I would say to us and so we don't view I I would say to us and so we don't view I I would say we don't take this role we don't take this role we don't take this role as seriously as some people because we as seriously as some people because we as seriously as some people because we don't actually own it. It was never ours don't actually own it. It was never ours don't actually own it. It was never ours in the first place. So we hold it very in the first place. So we hold it very in the first place. So we hold it very loosely. loosely. loosely. give it up. give it up. give it up. And we're going to give it up and we're And we're going to give it up and we're And we're going to give it up and we're just stewarding it for this season. So just stewarding it for this season. So just stewarding it for this season. So so the spirit I where I would think the so the spirit I where I would think the so the spirit I where I would think the spiritual spiritual spiritual implications would be heavier implications would be heavier implications would be heavier it's actually a little bit more freeing it's actually a little bit more freeing it's actually a little bit more freeing because we'll just see what God is just because we'll just see what God is just because we'll just see what God is just a continuation of a posture we've a continuation of a posture we've a continuation of a posture we've already we've we've had since our early already we've we've had since our early already we've we've had since our early 20s. Like just so loose. 20s. Like just so loose. 20s. Like just so loose. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I agree with that. I I'd say And and I agree with that. I I'd say And and I agree with that. I I'd say maybe to Carrie's question too, maybe maybe to Carrie's question too, maybe maybe to Carrie's question too, maybe you weigh in on this that you weigh in on this that you weigh in on this that as much as we wanted to view ourselves as much as we wanted to view ourselves as much as we wanted to view ourselves as as stewards in all this, it's not as as stewards in all this, it's not as as stewards in all this, it's not it's not ours. When the transition it's not ours. When the transition it's not ours. When the transition happened, I think happened, I think happened, I think the the thing I No one can prepare you the the thing I No one can prepare you the the thing I No one can prepare you for this, but that you know, when the for this, but that you know, when the for this, but that you know, when the transition happened transition happened transition happened and I'd be curious to hear your view on and I'd be curious to hear your view on and I'd be curious to hear your view on this.

this. this. I thought I had some picture of the I thought I had some picture of the I thought I had some picture of the weight. weight. weight. You have no clue. You have no clue. You have no clue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just have no clue. I mean, if you You just have no clue. I mean, if you You just have no clue. I mean, if you think it's a fanny pack, it's a gorilla. think it's a fanny pack, it's a gorilla. think it's a fanny pack, it's a gorilla. Like it's Like it's Like it's it's a it's a gorilla. So, you know, it's a it's a gorilla. So, you know, it's a it's a gorilla. So, you know, dealing with that gorilla, I think you dealing with that gorilla, I think you dealing with that gorilla, I think you know, I think Jamie was really good know, I think Jamie was really good know, I think Jamie was really good about trying to figure out he let's about trying to figure out he let's about trying to figure out he let's let's talk about whatever weight you're let's talk about whatever weight you're let's talk about whatever weight you're feeling. I mean, did you see any changes feeling. I mean, did you see any changes feeling. I mean, did you see any changes in me? I'd say in those early the early in me? I'd say in those early the early in me? I'd say in those early the early time period of just when when you step time period of just when when you step time period of just when when you step into to a role like this? into to a role like this? into to a role like this? Yeah, well, I think for me the Yeah, well, I think for me the Yeah, well, I think for me the transition transition transition um um um the grind of the transition actually, the grind of the transition actually, the grind of the transition actually, the weight of the transition happened the weight of the transition happened the weight of the transition happened actually before the transition for me. actually before the transition for me. actually before the transition for me. Because we actually and I but like Because we actually and I but like Because we actually and I but like because we never really because we never really because we never really um counted on it happening. Because we um counted on it happening. Because we um counted on it happening. Because we didn't It wasn't something we like didn't It wasn't something we like didn't It wasn't something we like wanted. It was a wanted. It was a wanted. It was a uh sort of a role we accepted. And so, I uh sort of a role we accepted. And so, I uh sort of a role we accepted. And so, I felt I think the weight that I felt for felt I think the weight that I felt for felt I think the weight that I felt for you was in all of the details. We tried you was in all of the details. We tried you was in all of the details. We tried to get all of the emotion to get all of the emotion to get all of the emotion settled beforehand versus after. So, settled beforehand versus after. So, settled beforehand versus after. So, when the weight the weight was when the weight the weight was when the weight the weight was different, I think relationally you felt different, I think relationally you felt different, I think relationally you felt it changed relation your relation a lot it changed relation your relation a lot it changed relation your relation a lot of your relationships changed of your relationships changed of your relationships changed in in an instant.

in in an instant. in in an instant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but I'm so grateful. We have so many Um but I'm so grateful. We have so many Um but I'm so grateful. We have so many roots here and such strong ties here. roots here and such strong ties here. roots here and such strong ties here. Everything changed, yet nothing changed Everything changed, yet nothing changed Everything changed, yet nothing changed because everyone kind of has because everyone kind of has because everyone kind of has Our friends would be the same friends we Our friends would be the same friends we Our friends would be the same friends we have if he was the janitor. have if he was the janitor. have if he was the janitor. Mm. So, let's talk about radical Mm. So, let's talk about radical Mm. So, let's talk about radical generosity. This seems to be a hinge generosity. This seems to be a hinge generosity. This seems to be a hinge point in your lives, in your ministry, point in your lives, in your ministry, point in your lives, in your ministry, in your relationship. in your relationship. in your relationship. So, you're in your 20s, you're consuming So, you're in your 20s, you're consuming So, you're in your 20s, you're consuming like crazy, there's never enough money, like crazy, there's never enough money, like crazy, there's never enough money, doesn't matter you're getting massive doesn't matter you're getting massive doesn't matter you're getting massive bonuses, making multiple multiple six bonuses, making multiple multiple six bonuses, making multiple multiple six figures, figures, figures, and you're fighting about money. and you're fighting about money. and you're fighting about money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On the regular. On the regular. On the regular. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You read it into God's word for a year You read it into God's word for a year You read it into God's word for a year on money, and it changes your life. on money, and it changes your life. on money, and it changes your life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What happened? What happened? What happened? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it put us on this path of I think it put us on this path of I think it put us on this path of um we decided that that we wanted our um we decided that that we wanted our um we decided that that we wanted our lives, which were based on consuming, to lives, which were based on consuming, to lives, which were based on consuming, to shift to generosity. And it started with shift to generosity. And it started with shift to generosity. And it started with just like a simple tithe. We weren't just like a simple tithe. We weren't just like a simple tithe. We weren't even tithing at the tithe at the time.

even tithing at the tithe at the time. even tithing at the tithe at the time. We weren't We weren't We weren't Too broke to tithe. Too broke to tithe. Too broke to tithe. I mean too yeah, too broke to tithe. We I mean too yeah, too broke to tithe. We I mean too yeah, too broke to tithe. We We weren't tithing. We were giving. We weren't tithing. We were giving. We weren't tithing. We were giving. We're giving to our local church, but it We're giving to our local church, but it We're giving to our local church, but it was not a tenth. It wasn't. And so, we was not a tenth. It wasn't. And so, we was not a tenth. It wasn't. And so, we just started there, and just realized just started there, and just realized just started there, and just realized like we got to start with just like we got to start with just like we got to start with just obedience. obedience. obedience. But, But, But, the more we read scripture, we're like the more we read scripture, we're like the more we read scripture, we're like the tithing's the starting place, not the tithing's the starting place, not the tithing's the starting place, not the stopping the stopping the stopping It's not the finish line. It's not the It's not the finish line. It's not the It's not the finish line. It's not the finish line. finish line. finish line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, we you know, we we just began to see So, we you know, we we just began to see So, we you know, we we just began to see God's faithfulness. So, we started just God's faithfulness. So, we started just God's faithfulness. So, we started just just with I'd say that small step of the just with I'd say that small step of the just with I'd say that small step of the tithe, and we started to see God's tithe, and we started to see God's tithe, and we started to see God's faithfulness. faithfulness. faithfulness. And it it it it changed us like oh, wait And it it it it changed us like oh, wait And it it it it changed us like oh, wait a second. When we put him first in this a second. When we put him first in this a second. When we put him first in this area, area, area, everything else starts to fall in in everything else starts to fall in in everything else starts to fall in in line. So, then we started saying how can line. So, then we started saying how can line. So, then we started saying how can we be more generous? So, we were sitting we be more generous? So, we were sitting we be more generous? So, we were sitting down one time looking at cuz we we down one time looking at cuz we we down one time looking at cuz we we started to make a budget. We never had a started to make a budget. We never had a started to make a budget. We never had a budget before this. Started doing you budget before this. Started doing you budget before this. Started doing you know, a lot of the things that Dave know, a lot of the things that Dave know, a lot of the things that Dave Ramsey talks about so you know, Ramsey talks about so you know, Ramsey talks about so you know, passionately, which we believe in. passionately, which we believe in. passionately, which we believe in. Um but we were sitting down one time and Um but we were sitting down one time and Um but we were sitting down one time and just getting really passionate about just getting really passionate about just getting really passionate about we're just we're not owners. We're we're we're just we're not owners. We're we're we're just we're not owners. We're we're stewards.

stewards. stewards. What would God want us to do with his What would God want us to do with his What would God want us to do with his money, especially if he gives us more money, especially if he gives us more money, especially if he gives us more money? What would we do? And so, we were money? What would we do? And so, we were money? What would we do? And so, we were sitting down one time and said wouldn't sitting down one time and said wouldn't sitting down one time and said wouldn't it be cool if you could get to the place it be cool if you could get to the place it be cool if you could get to the place where you give like 11% or 12% or 13%? where you give like 11% or 12% or 13%? where you give like 11% or 12% or 13%? What about 14%? What about 14%? What about 14%? And then out of the whim, I don't know And then out of the whim, I don't know And then out of the whim, I don't know who said it, but we were sitting there who said it, but we were sitting there who said it, but we were sitting there just dreaming. We said, "What if What if just dreaming. We said, "What if What if just dreaming. We said, "What if What if you could get to a place where like you you could get to a place where like you you could get to a place where like you could give could give could give half your income away one day?" And so, half your income away one day?" And so, half your income away one day?" And so, we wrote it down as a goal. Like, we had we wrote it down as a goal. Like, we had we wrote it down as a goal. Like, we had this budget spreadsheet, and we had this budget spreadsheet, and we had this budget spreadsheet, and we had goals in it. goals in it. goals in it. And we said, And we said, And we said, "We want to make a commitment that "We want to make a commitment that "We want to make a commitment that every year we want to evaluate our every year we want to evaluate our every year we want to evaluate our giving and try to increase it just a giving and try to increase it just a giving and try to increase it just a little bit." little bit." little bit." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this put us on this path of And this put us on this path of And this put us on this path of radical generosity. And And we've been radical generosity. And And we've been radical generosity. And And we've been doing that for doing that for doing that for Yeah, it's It's been close to It's over Yeah, it's It's been close to It's over Yeah, it's It's been close to It's over 15 years. Yeah, we've been doing this a 15 years. Yeah, we've been doing this a 15 years. Yeah, we've been doing this a lot longer than that, actually. lot longer than that, actually. lot longer than that, actually. every Every spending decision became a every Every spending decision became a every Every spending decision became a spiritual decision. Are we building our spiritual decision. Are we building our spiritual decision. Are we building our kingdom or God's kingdom? kingdom or God's kingdom? kingdom or God's kingdom? And it was really as simple as And it was really as simple as And it was really as simple as You seem so in sync on that. You seem so in sync on that. You seem so in sync on that. How did you How did you How did you get in sync on that? Cuz I've seen get in sync on that? Cuz I've seen get in sync on that? Cuz I've seen situations where one partner situations where one partner situations where one partner Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. wants to be radically generous, and the wants to be radically generous, and the wants to be radically generous, and the other is like, "No way. other is like, "No way. other is like, "No way. I'm buying a car." I'm buying a car." I'm buying a car." Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I think a lot of it was the It It, you I think a lot of it was the It It, you I think a lot of it was the It It, you know, know, know, God whispers to us in our pleasures, He God whispers to us in our pleasures, He God whispers to us in our pleasures, He shouts to us in our pain. It was that shouts to us in our pain. It was that shouts to us in our pain. It was that pain early on of all the financial pain early on of all the financial pain early on of all the financial brokenness that that I think we we came brokenness that that I think we we came brokenness that that I think we we came together with God's words, so we're together with God's words, so we're together with God's words, so we're doing it together. We're in some of doing it together. We're in some of doing it together. We're in some of these things things together, that God these things things together, that God these things things together, that God began to shape our ideas together. And began to shape our ideas together. And began to shape our ideas together. And when we started small, saw God's when we started small, saw God's when we started small, saw God's faithfulness, we both got so excited faithfulness, we both got so excited faithfulness, we both got so excited about it. God just changed our hearts. about it. God just changed our hearts. about it. God just changed our hearts. And I think we value each other what And I think we value each other what And I think we value each other what we've learned over a lot of work is we we've learned over a lot of work is we we've learned over a lot of work is we just evaluate each other's strengths. just evaluate each other's strengths. just evaluate each other's strengths. Like, I'm I'm the day-to-day Like, I do Like, I'm I'm the day-to-day Like, I do Like, I'm I'm the day-to-day Like, I do 90% 90% 90% of the financial picture. Like, if he of the financial picture. Like, if he of the financial picture. Like, if he gets hit by a bus tomorrow, uh gets hit by a bus tomorrow, uh gets hit by a bus tomorrow, uh somebody's going to have to keep the somebody's going to have to keep the somebody's going to have to keep the lights on. I don't know how he's going lights on. I don't know how he's going lights on. I don't know how he's going to do it. However, he does all the tax to do it. However, he does all the tax to do it. However, he does all the tax planning. And we have We have a bunch of planning. And we have We have a bunch of planning. And we have We have a bunch of systems in place, so we just We have systems in place, so we just We have systems in place, so we just We have leaned in to make this a total team leaned in to make this a total team leaned in to make this a total team effort. And honestly, we predecide We effort. And honestly, we predecide We effort. And honestly, we predecide We predecide some giving numbers. And so, predecide some giving numbers. And so, predecide some giving numbers. And so, it becomes a blessing. That That is it becomes a blessing. That That is it becomes a blessing. That That is something we decide together. Like, what something we decide together. Like, what something we decide together. Like, what do we want to do this year just to have do we want to do this year just to have do we want to do this year just to have some money set aside where a need comes some money set aside where a need comes some money set aside where a need comes and we're going to meet it? And so, and we're going to meet it? And so, and we're going to meet it? And so, we've done that for a long time.

we've done that for a long time. we've done that for a long time. Long time. So, Long time. So, Long time. So, like a lot of people, they have their like a lot of people, they have their like a lot of people, they have their vacation fund, they they always have a vacation fund, they they always have a vacation fund, they they always have a list of what they want and what they're list of what they want and what they're list of what they want and what they're going to do next. going to do next. going to do next. What happened to your desires when you What happened to your desires when you What happened to your desires when you switched? switched? switched? Because you were doing big houses, big Because you were doing big houses, big Because you were doing big houses, big renovations, big trips, big cars, renovations, big trips, big cars, renovations, big trips, big cars, everything like that. Spend, spend, everything like that. Spend, spend, everything like that. Spend, spend, spend. What happened to your desire? spend. What happened to your desire? spend. What happened to your desire? Yeah, I think um there's a chapter in a Yeah, I think um there's a chapter in a Yeah, I think um there's a chapter in a book, um Celebration of Discipline, the book, um Celebration of Discipline, the book, um Celebration of Discipline, the simplicity chapter. We still talk about simplicity chapter. We still talk about simplicity chapter. We still talk about it. We read it 20 years ago. it. We read it 20 years ago. it. We read it 20 years ago. Richard Foster? Foster, yeah. Richard Foster? Foster, yeah. Richard Foster? Foster, yeah. I I think that's one of the most I I think that's one of the most I I think that's one of the most convicting chapters of any book I've convicting chapters of any book I've convicting chapters of any book I've ever read. ever read. ever read. Really? Really? Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We just agreed to be on this radical We just agreed to be on this radical We just agreed to be on this radical journey also of simplicity. journey also of simplicity. journey also of simplicity. And we still live like that. Our And we still live like that. Our And we still live like that. Our decision-making decision-making decision-making So, what does that look like? Let's make So, what does that look like? Let's make So, what does that look like? Let's make it tangible. Well, I think I think back it tangible. Well, I think I think back it tangible. Well, I think I think back to your desires, they don't they don't to your desires, they don't they don't to your desires, they don't they don't all go away. all go away. all go away. Does that make sense there? They're not Does that make sense there? They're not Does that make sense there? They're not going away and we still have we still going away and we still have we still going away and we still have we still have them. We're not living as hermits. have them. We're not living as hermits. have them. We're not living as hermits. You know what I mean? We're not like We You know what I mean? We're not like We You know what I mean? We're not like We we we live I feel like we have a very we we live I feel like we have a very we we live I feel like we have a very like, you know, comfortable like, you know, comfortable like, you know, comfortable um lifestyle, but um lifestyle, but um lifestyle, but the joy we found in giving, the joy we found in giving, the joy we found in giving, and I say joy, and I say joy, and I say joy, I mean there is a joy and a freedom and I mean there is a joy and a freedom and I mean there is a joy and a freedom and a peace that comes when your focus in a peace that comes when your focus in a peace that comes when your focus in your marriage and with your finances is your marriage and with your finances is your marriage and with your finances is more directed towards how you can be more directed towards how you can be more directed towards how you can be generous than all the things you can generous than all the things you can generous than all the things you can get.

get. get. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When that because there's so much joy in When that because there's so much joy in When that because there's so much joy in that. Like, we get that. Like, we get that. Like, we get I would say we get we get like giddy. I would say we get we get like giddy. I would say we get we get like giddy. We are like giddy to give nowadays. We are like giddy to give nowadays. We are like giddy to give nowadays. Like, we get giddy to to give because we Like, we get giddy to to give because we Like, we get giddy to to give because we just see that when you give, God can just see that when you give, God can just see that when you give, God can God's not only going to take care of all God's not only going to take care of all God's not only going to take care of all your needs, but there's just joy in your needs, but there's just joy in your needs, but there's just joy in this. And we came to We didn't That this. And we came to We didn't That this. And we came to We didn't That didn't happen overnight, by the way. didn't happen overnight, by the way. didn't happen overnight, by the way. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Like, I'd say if a young couple's Like, I'd say if a young couple's Like, I'd say if a young couple's listening to this, that didn't That that listening to this, that didn't That that listening to this, that didn't That that joy didn't joy didn't joy didn't It's not like you wake up tomorrow and It's not like you wake up tomorrow and It's not like you wake up tomorrow and it's like, "Oh!" it's like, "Oh!" it's like, "Oh!" You know what it is? It's watching God's You know what it is? It's watching God's You know what it is? It's watching God's faithfulness. faithfulness. faithfulness. And again, we are zero health and wealth And again, we are zero health and wealth And again, we are zero health and wealth prosperity gospel. prosperity gospel. prosperity gospel. Right, right. This is not like going to Right, right. This is not like going to Right, right. This is not like going to give it away and get 10x back. give it away and get 10x back. give it away and get 10x back. 10x back. But, it's really hard to read 10x back. But, it's really hard to read 10x back. But, it's really hard to read scripture and and see that when you scripture and and see that when you scripture and and see that when you become generous that God is not going to become generous that God is not going to become generous that God is not going to take care of your needs. take care of your needs. take care of your needs. So, you're living on less. So, you're living on less. So, you're living on less. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you're happier. But, you're happier. But, you're happier. We are. We are. We are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Period. Period. Period. I see it. I see it in the exchange I see it. I see it in the exchange I see it. I see it in the exchange between you. I see it in your eyes. I between you. I see it in your eyes. I between you. I see it in your eyes. I see it in your body language. see it in your body language. see it in your body language. There's there's there's peace and There's there's there's peace and There's there's there's peace and freedom when you would say Yeah, say it.

freedom when you would say Yeah, say it. freedom when you would say Yeah, say it. just freedom. just freedom. just freedom. We are like like we have this joke of We are like like we have this joke of We are like like we have this joke of like what if what if all of you know, like what if what if all of you know, like what if what if all of you know, when all of this ends, what do we need when all of this ends, what do we need when all of this ends, what do we need need to make? And we're like, well, I need to make? And we're like, well, I need to make? And we're like, well, I don't know. Who cares? Like God will don't know. Who cares? Like God will don't know. Who cares? Like God will provide it all. God will give us the provide it all. God will give us the provide it all. God will give us the opportunities. His dreams are way bigger opportunities. His dreams are way bigger opportunities. His dreams are way bigger than our dreams if we're just than our dreams if we're just than our dreams if we're just open-handed and um yeah, it's just it's open-handed and um yeah, it's just it's open-handed and um yeah, it's just it's a it is a journey that I think we'll be a it is a journey that I think we'll be a it is a journey that I think we'll be on for the rest of our life. And we'll on for the rest of our life. And we'll on for the rest of our life. And we'll just see what God does. just see what God does. just see what God does. Well, Well, Well, so how has this impacted your approach so how has this impacted your approach so how has this impacted your approach to finances at CCV? I mean, in the last to finances at CCV? I mean, in the last to finances at CCV? I mean, in the last episode you talked about episode you talked about episode you talked about um um um challenging your church to sponsor every challenging your church to sponsor every challenging your church to sponsor every child in Colombia, I think it was, child in Colombia, I think it was, child in Colombia, I think it was, through Compassion. $7 million swing and through Compassion. $7 million swing and through Compassion. $7 million swing and the next year giving here grew by $7 the next year giving here grew by $7 the next year giving here grew by $7 million. Most pastors wouldn't do that million. Most pastors wouldn't do that million. Most pastors wouldn't do that because they're like, we need that $7 because they're like, we need that $7 because they're like, we need that $7 million to grow the ministry here. I'm million to grow the ministry here. I'm million to grow the ministry here. I'm not going to give it to Compassion. not going to give it to Compassion. not going to give it to Compassion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You did. You did. You did. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And then God says, "And here it is, all And then God says, "And here it is, all And then God says, "And here it is, all back again." And Compassion, you know, back again." And Compassion, you know, back again." And Compassion, you know, in Colombia totally sponsored. Amazing.

in Colombia totally sponsored. Amazing. in Colombia totally sponsored. Amazing. How has that impacted How has that impacted How has that impacted your approach to finances at CCV? your approach to finances at CCV? your approach to finances at CCV? Yeah, I think I think it's become you Yeah, I think I think it's become you Yeah, I think I think it's become you know, because it's such a passion of of know, because it's such a passion of of know, because it's such a passion of of ours, this this idea of how can we ours, this this idea of how can we ours, this this idea of how can we continue to live radically generous and continue to live radically generous and continue to live radically generous and just watching the joy and what God does just watching the joy and what God does just watching the joy and what God does with that and how he continues to with that and how he continues to with that and how he continues to surprise you when you get on this surprise you when you get on this surprise you when you get on this generosity journey. Um that for sure we generosity journey. Um that for sure we generosity journey. Um that for sure we we want to it is a it is a big value of we want to it is a it is a big value of we want to it is a it is a big value of ours as a church. So ours as a church. So ours as a church. So you know, one of the things that you know, one of the things that you know, one of the things that we know about um large churches, mega we know about um large churches, mega we know about um large churches, mega churches is churches is churches is there is a perception out there that there is a perception out there that there is a perception out there that it's kind of about the money. Yeah. And it's kind of about the money. Yeah. And it's kind of about the money. Yeah. And I I I you know, I I know a lot of large I I I you know, I I know a lot of large I I I you know, I I know a lot of large church pastors that are really friends. church pastors that are really friends. church pastors that are really friends. I I I I don't know many of them that are in it I don't know many of them that are in it I don't know many of them that are in it for the for the for the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. money. They're just not. But it But it money. They're just not. But it But it money. They're just not. But it But it that's a perception out there because we that's a perception out there because we that's a perception out there because we look at these churches that have grown. look at these churches that have grown. look at these churches that have grown. So So So you know, as we leak in this radical you know, as we leak in this radical you know, as we leak in this radical generosity, we want to be able to change generosity, we want to be able to change generosity, we want to be able to change people's even view of of the church.

people's even view of of the church. people's even view of of the church. Like we're not here we're not here about Like we're not here we're not here about Like we're not here we're not here about the money. We're not for the money. We the money. We're not for the money. We the money. We're not for the money. We want to be we we want to be um like the want to be we we want to be um like the want to be we we want to be um like the early church, known for our radical early church, known for our radical early church, known for our radical generosity. When you look at the early generosity. When you look at the early generosity. When you look at the early church after what changed church after what changed church after what changed and allowed the early church to go from and allowed the early church to go from and allowed the early church to go from a guy getting a guy getting a guy getting crucified on a tree, Jesus, to then you crucified on a tree, Jesus, to then you crucified on a tree, Jesus, to then you know, within 300, you know, years almost know, within 300, you know, years almost know, within 300, you know, years almost later the Roman Empire later the Roman Empire later the Roman Empire Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. declares Christianity like official How declares Christianity like official How declares Christianity like official How How did that happen? When you really How did that happen? When you really How did that happen? When you really study it it was part of their radical study it it was part of their radical study it it was part of their radical generosity as Christians. So can we get generosity as Christians. So can we get generosity as Christians. So can we get back to being that kind of radically back to being that kind of radically back to being that kind of radically generous church? And so what do we have generous church? And so what do we have generous church? And so what do we have to do as a church? I think we have to to do as a church? I think we have to to do as a church? I think we have to continue to take risks continue to take risks continue to take risks to be generous. And it starts with to be generous. And it starts with to be generous. And it starts with that mean? that mean? that mean? So I think for us I'll I'll tell you a So I think for us I'll I'll tell you a So I think for us I'll I'll tell you a couple things that we've that we've couple things that we've that we've couple things that we've that we've tried to do um tried to do um tried to do um in in our in our culture and our in in our in our culture and our in in our in our culture and our setting. setting. setting. One is we've made a decision and I'm not One is we've made a decision and I'm not One is we've made a decision and I'm not even saying every church should do this. even saying every church should do this. even saying every church should do this. Um it's just a decision we've made. Um it's just a decision we've made. Um it's just a decision we've made. We've made a decision as a church that We've made a decision as a church that We've made a decision as a church that we will monetize nothing. we will monetize nothing. we will monetize nothing. Ever.

Ever. Ever. Um the music we produce Um the music we produce Um the music we produce there's not anybody that's actually there's not anybody that's actually there's not anybody that's actually making um making um making um uh uh uh anything off that. Um, when you show up anything off that. Um, when you show up anything off that. Um, when you show up on the weekends and the the food we on the weekends and the the food we on the weekends and the the food we provide, the shirt that you talked about provide, the shirt that you talked about provide, the shirt that you talked about last episode, right? All that we last episode, right? All that we last episode, right? All that we literally are just our only goal is to literally are just our only goal is to literally are just our only goal is to break even. break even. break even. Selling it cost. Selling it cost. Selling it cost. For selling it cost. If you came and For selling it cost. If you came and For selling it cost. If you came and you know, you you you wrote a new book you know, you you you wrote a new book you know, you you you wrote a new book and we were like, "We're going to offer and we were like, "We're going to offer and we were like, "We're going to offer this book to the church." And let's say this book to the church." And let's say this book to the church." And let's say we got it from you for $7, we'd sell it we got it from you for $7, we'd sell it we got it from you for $7, we'd sell it for $7. for $7. for $7. Wow. Wow. Wow. That's what we would do. That's what we would do. That's what we would do. And why why did you make that decision? And why why did you make that decision? And why why did you make that decision? Just made a decision because we don't Just made a decision because we don't Just made a decision because we don't ever ever ever we don't we just want we just know God we don't we just want we just know God we don't we just want we just know God can provide for this church much better can provide for this church much better can provide for this church much better than we can. than we can. than we can. And you've seen that bear out. And you've seen that bear out. And you've seen that bear out. We've seen it bear out uh hundredfold. We've seen it bear out uh hundredfold. We've seen it bear out uh hundredfold. We just think God can provide for the We just think God can provide for the We just think God can provide for the financial needs of this church better financial needs of this church better financial needs of this church better than we can with a bunch of our our than we can with a bunch of our our than we can with a bunch of our our ideas of how we can create different ideas of how we can create different ideas of how we can create different engines. Now, I'm not saying every engines. Now, I'm not saying every engines. Now, I'm not saying every church should do that. I just think church should do that. I just think church should do that. I just think that's just a something we've decided that's just a something we've decided that's just a something we've decided cuz we want to live like radically cuz we want to live like radically cuz we want to live like radically generous, relying on God. So, on the generous, relying on God. So, on the generous, relying on God. So, on the flip side, what we're going to do is flip side, what we're going to do is flip side, what we're going to do is we're going to demonstrate radical we're going to demonstrate radical we're going to demonstrate radical generosity to our city and churches and generosity to our city and churches and generosity to our city and churches and those around us. So, you know, we talked those around us. So, you know, we talked those around us. So, you know, we talked about the compassion example, but we about the compassion example, but we about the compassion example, but we tried to have other examples where we've tried to have other examples where we've tried to have other examples where we've stepped out in faith stepped out in faith stepped out in faith to be radically generous. So, I'll give to be radically generous. So, I'll give to be radically generous. So, I'll give you an example, right before COVID in you an example, right before COVID in you an example, right before COVID in 2019, 2019, 2019, we had this we had this we had this kind of kind of kind of crazy idea that if we're going to reach crazy idea that if we're going to reach crazy idea that if we're going to reach our city, our city, our city, um um um of course it includes other churches.

of course it includes other churches. of course it includes other churches. Right. Right. Right. So, what if we chose some churches in So, what if we chose some churches in So, what if we chose some churches in our city our city our city that have high growth potential, that have high growth potential, that have high growth potential, but actually need some capital? And what but actually need some capital? And what but actually need some capital? And what if we decided as a church to go invest if we decided as a church to go invest if we decided as a church to go invest in those other churches, not our own in those other churches, not our own in those other churches, not our own church? church? church? Wow. Wow. Wow. So, we called it more than us. So, we called it more than us. So, we called it more than us. We said, "Hey, we want we want this to We said, "Hey, we want we want this to We said, "Hey, we want we want this to be a more than us." We cast this vision be a more than us." We cast this vision be a more than us." We cast this vision to our church. We said, "Hey, we we've to our church. We said, "Hey, we we've to our church. We said, "Hey, we we've chosen and we went and vetted them. We chosen and we went and vetted them. We chosen and we went and vetted them. We made them sign some documents if we give made them sign some documents if we give made them sign some documents if we give you money, you're actually going to use you money, you're actually going to use you money, you're actually going to use it for for these things that you said it for for these things that you said it for for these things that you said you're going to use it for that are you're going to use it for that are you're going to use it for that are going to help you grow. So, we actually going to help you grow. So, we actually going to help you grow. So, we actually found 30 churches found 30 churches found 30 churches across our city that all had across our city that all had across our city that all had um needs that we felt could felt like it um needs that we felt could felt like it um needs that we felt could felt like it helped them grow. We took an offering at helped them grow. We took an offering at helped them grow. We took an offering at Christmas. Christmas. Christmas. Um had no idea what we're going to Um had no idea what we're going to Um had no idea what we're going to raise. I just told our church, "Every raise. I just told our church, "Every raise. I just told our church, "Every dime every dollar you give will 100% be dime every dollar you give will 100% be dime every dollar you give will 100% be given away to these other churches." given away to these other churches." given away to these other churches." And And And Carey, the church raised $7 million in Carey, the church raised $7 million in Carey, the church raised $7 million in one basically a one weekend ask. one basically a one weekend ask. one basically a one weekend ask. And we gave all $7 million of that away And we gave all $7 million of that away And we gave all $7 million of that away to other churches in our city to help to other churches in our city to help to other churches in our city to help them grow.

them grow. them grow. And again, you might think, "Oh gosh, if And again, you might think, "Oh gosh, if And again, you might think, "Oh gosh, if you took up $7 million, couldn't you you took up $7 million, couldn't you you took up $7 million, couldn't you have done a lot with that $7 million?" have done a lot with that $7 million?" have done a lot with that $7 million?" Are you kidding me? I have a list this Are you kidding me? I have a list this Are you kidding me? I have a list this long of things we could do Yeah, yeah, long of things we could do Yeah, yeah, long of things we could do Yeah, yeah, yeah. That we need to go do. A vision I yeah. That we need to go do. A vision I yeah. That we need to go do. A vision I have for our church. have for our church. have for our church. But Carey, when we are radically But Carey, when we are radically But Carey, when we are radically generous, generous, generous, I think God in heaven takes notice. I think God in heaven takes notice. I think God in heaven takes notice. He has all the resources. He has all the resources. He has all the resources. He has everything at his disposal. He has everything at his disposal. He has everything at his disposal. And we have to continue to trust him. And we have to continue to trust him. And we have to continue to trust him. And I think he's looking for people And I think he's looking for people And I think he's looking for people that can trust him with your personal that can trust him with your personal that can trust him with your personal finances, with your church's budget. finances, with your church's budget. finances, with your church's budget. Can you live in a way where you're Can you live in a way where you're Can you live in a way where you're radically generous and just keep radically generous and just keep radically generous and just keep trusting that God is going to keep trusting that God is going to keep trusting that God is going to keep meeting your needs. And that's I'm just meeting your needs. And that's I'm just meeting your needs. And that's I'm just saying that's kind of posture we're just saying that's kind of posture we're just saying that's kind of posture we're just trying to have. And we're not perfect at trying to have. And we're not perfect at trying to have. And we're not perfect at it. I think we sometimes don't take it. I think we sometimes don't take it. I think we sometimes don't take enough risks. Um I've given you a couple enough risks. Um I've given you a couple enough risks. Um I've given you a couple examples. There's probably other things examples. There's probably other things examples. There's probably other things we've we've we we need to step out even we've we've we we need to step out even we've we've we we need to step out even more on now. But that's that's part of more on now. But that's that's part of more on now. But that's that's part of how it's trying to impact even even our how it's trying to impact even even our how it's trying to impact even even our church.

church. church. Jamie, we were talking earlier about um Jamie, we were talking earlier about um Jamie, we were talking earlier about um the shift from Intel into ministry. And the shift from Intel into ministry. And the shift from Intel into ministry. And I just want to know as a high-capacity I just want to know as a high-capacity I just want to know as a high-capacity leader, as a person with strong leader, as a person with strong leader, as a person with strong opinions, you know, on a very opinions, you know, on a very opinions, you know, on a very corporately successful career until you corporately successful career until you corporately successful career until you felt the call to, felt the call to, felt the call to, you know, here, raise your daughters, you know, here, raise your daughters, you know, here, raise your daughters, etc. What has been one of the biggest etc. What has been one of the biggest etc. What has been one of the biggest misconceptions you've had to overcome as misconceptions you've had to overcome as misconceptions you've had to overcome as a pastor's wife? a pastor's wife? a pastor's wife? Yeah, that's a great question. Well, um Yeah, that's a great question. Well, um Yeah, that's a great question. Well, um I don't know that I my transition into I I don't know that I my transition into I I don't know that I my transition into I I've been staying home for 16 years, I've been staying home for 16 years, I've been staying home for 16 years, which is mind-boggling to me because I which is mind-boggling to me because I which is mind-boggling to me because I never even knew if I wanted kids. never even knew if I wanted kids. never even knew if I wanted kids. Um it in that season, um we made the Um it in that season, um we made the Um it in that season, um we made the decision together and it took me 2 years decision together and it took me 2 years decision together and it took me 2 years to be okay with it. to be okay with it. to be okay with it. Really? So, you kind of went kicking and Really? So, you kind of went kicking and Really? So, you kind of went kicking and screaming? screaming? screaming? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You you shared a little bit earlier You you shared a little bit earlier You you shared a little bit earlier before we started recording about the before we started recording about the before we started recording about the dynamics. It was a bit dynamics. It was a bit dynamics. It was a bit like you wanted to continue at Intel in like you wanted to continue at Intel in like you wanted to continue at Intel in software engineering.

software engineering. software engineering. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, what made that untenable? So, what made that untenable? So, what made that untenable? Um just practically. Like our systems Um just practically. Like our systems Um just practically. Like our systems were breaking down. Like were breaking down. Like were breaking down. Like At home? At home? At home? Yeah. Breaking down and we had a Yeah. Breaking down and we had a Yeah. Breaking down and we had a Cuz you Ash started working at the Cuz you Ash started working at the Cuz you Ash started working at the church. church. church. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You were still working at Intel. You You were still working at Intel. You You were still working at Intel. You were a mom by then. were a mom by then. were a mom by then. Yeah. Yeah, four and two. Yeah. Yeah, four and two. Yeah. Yeah, four and two. Okay. Four and two. So, you had a Okay. Four and two. So, you had a Okay. Four and two. So, you had a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old. What broke 4-year-old and a 2-year-old. What broke 4-year-old and a 2-year-old. What broke down? down? down? Um just the practical we don't we were Um just the practical we don't we were Um just the practical we don't we were like passing in the wind, right? Because like passing in the wind, right? Because like passing in the wind, right? Because I was Monday through Friday. I was Monday through Friday. I was Monday through Friday. Um he was weekends. Like we didn't have Um he was weekends. Like we didn't have Um he was weekends. Like we didn't have a day off together. The kids The kids a day off together. The kids The kids a day off together. The kids The kids were fine, but they weren't threat I were fine, but they weren't threat I were fine, but they weren't threat I knew that I I knew that I was not being knew that I I knew that I was not being knew that I I knew that I was not being the mom that they deserved. For us, the mom that they deserved. For us, the mom that they deserved. For us, because we when we did it Monday through because we when we did it Monday through because we when we did it Monday through Friday together, we told it we managed. Friday together, we told it we managed. Friday together, we told it we managed. We were like killed it. But then when We were like killed it. But then when We were like killed it. But then when our schedules just got off enough, we our schedules just got off enough, we our schedules just got off enough, we knew there was a breakdown that was knew there was a breakdown that was knew there was a breakdown that was going to happen. And in those 2 years, going to happen. And in those 2 years, going to happen. And in those 2 years, what the Lord really revealed to me is a what the Lord really revealed to me is a what the Lord really revealed to me is a deep-seated identity issue in who I was. deep-seated identity issue in who I was. deep-seated identity issue in who I was. Which was? Which was? Which was? Which was any when I contribute, that's Which was any when I contribute, that's Which was any when I contribute, that's when I have value.

when I have value. when I have value. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. And and went all the way back from what And and went all the way back from what And and went all the way back from what my childhood to my childhood to my childhood to Even when I make money. Even when I make money. Even when I make money. Yeah, when my from like I was Yeah, when my from like I was Yeah, when my from like I was a soccer player like seven days a week a soccer player like seven days a week a soccer player like seven days a week then we went into undergrad where I then we went into undergrad where I then we went into undergrad where I thought I was going to be a spy. That thought I was going to be a spy. That thought I was going to be a spy. That was the new one. I was just collecting was the new one. I was just collecting was the new one. I was just collecting identities. And so when I finally had to identities. And so when I finally had to identities. And so when I finally had to give up my career, my paycheck, the give up my career, my paycheck, the give up my career, my paycheck, the first time I didn't make a paycheck was first time I didn't make a paycheck was first time I didn't make a paycheck was really hard for me. really hard for me. really hard for me. That really started a process in me That really started a process in me That really started a process in me that had a deep-seated identity issue. that had a deep-seated identity issue. that had a deep-seated identity issue. And so I'm really passionate about that And so I'm really passionate about that And so I'm really passionate about that now. And so what's now. And so what's now. And so what's what's counterintuitive what's counterintuitive what's counterintuitive to that sort of thinking that I've to that sort of thinking that I've to that sort of thinking that I've really grown and and what I realize is really grown and and what I realize is really grown and and what I realize is if if there's fruit in me if if there's fruit in me if if there's fruit in me the fruit through me can't be stopped. the fruit through me can't be stopped. the fruit through me can't be stopped. And where I thought I had to do all of And where I thought I had to do all of And where I thought I had to do all of these things is actually that what is these things is actually that what is these things is actually that what is inside me is what can't be stopped cuz inside me is what can't be stopped cuz inside me is what can't be stopped cuz that goes straight through me into my that goes straight through me into my that goes straight through me into my marriage, my family, my ministry. And so marriage, my family, my ministry. And so marriage, my family, my ministry. And so really what's what I've grown into is really what's what I've grown into is really what's what I've grown into is like who am I becoming?

like who am I becoming? like who am I becoming? Right. Like Right. Like Right. Like Like what I'm doing doesn't matter Like what I'm doing doesn't matter Like what I'm doing doesn't matter as much as who I'm becoming because that as much as who I'm becoming because that as much as who I'm becoming because that will overflow into absolutely everything will overflow into absolutely everything will overflow into absolutely everything I do. I do. I do. Wow. And that took years. Wow. And that took years. Wow. And that took years. Years. Years. Years. Yeah. And really the greatest one of the Yeah. And really the greatest one of the Yeah. And really the greatest one of the greatest greatest greatest probably one of the most painful things probably one of the most painful things probably one of the most painful things of my entire life. of my entire life. of my entire life. How did you do it? How did you do it? How did you do it? How did I get the I mean a lot of How did I get the I mean a lot of How did I get the I mean a lot of brokenness, a lot of conversation of brokenness, a lot of conversation of brokenness, a lot of conversation of just what do I value? What does that just what do I value? What does that just what do I value? What does that look like in me? And it's still a look like in me? And it's still a look like in me? And it's still a struggle. Like when when people come up struggle. Like when when people come up struggle. Like when when people come up to me and they're like to me and they're like to me and they're like did you always just want to be a wife? did you always just want to be a wife? did you always just want to be a wife? And it's like a dagger in my And it's like a dagger in my And it's like a dagger in my I was like. I was like. I was like. It's a dagger. Yeah, it's or did you It's a dagger. Yeah, it's or did you It's a dagger. Yeah, it's or did you just just want to be a mom? That just just just want to be a mom? That just just just want to be a mom? That just comment and it sort of like pierces my comment and it sort of like pierces my comment and it sort of like pierces my heart but then at the same time I also heart but then at the same time I also heart but then at the same time I also catch myself. I'm like that's actually catch myself. I'm like that's actually catch myself. I'm like that's actually revealing that that identity issue is revealing that that identity issue is revealing that that identity issue is still in me. There's still work to do in still in me. There's still work to do in still in me. There's still work to do in there. I think we're all going to be there. I think we're all going to be there. I think we're all going to be faced with an identity crisis at some faced with an identity crisis at some faced with an identity crisis at some point in our life, like who am I outside point in our life, like who am I outside point in our life, like who am I outside of this podcast? Who am I outside of of this podcast? Who am I outside of of this podcast? Who am I outside of this role?

this role? this role? It's a big question. It's a big question. It's a big question. It's a big question. I think It's a big question. I think It's a big question. I think question. I don't know that I know the question. I don't know that I know the question. I don't know that I know the answer to that. answer to that. answer to that. Yeah, I think it's one conscious Yeah, I think it's one conscious Yeah, I think it's one conscious conversation conversation conversation um um um at a time. One really wrestling who am at a time. One really wrestling who am at a time. One really wrestling who am I? Is there enough fruit in me that the I? Is there enough fruit in me that the I? Is there enough fruit in me that the overflow is enough? overflow is enough? overflow is enough? Speaking of enough, I can't believe Speaking of enough, I can't believe Speaking of enough, I can't believe we've done two episodes and it feels we've done two episodes and it feels we've done two episodes and it feels like we barely scratched the surface. Um like we barely scratched the surface. Um like we barely scratched the surface. Um it's crazy. it's crazy. it's crazy. This has been such a gift. What have we This has been such a gift. What have we This has been such a gift. What have we not talked about? not talked about? not talked about? And I'm thinking particularly of young And I'm thinking particularly of young And I'm thinking particularly of young leaders listening who are maybe where leaders listening who are maybe where leaders listening who are maybe where you were in your 20s you were in your 20s you were in your 20s or early 30s. or early 30s. or early 30s. What have we not talked about that we What have we not talked about that we What have we not talked about that we need to talk about before we wrap? need to talk about before we wrap? need to talk about before we wrap? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I might say Carrie to the to the young I I might say Carrie to the to the young I I might say Carrie to the to the young leader listening that leader listening that leader listening that you know, you know, you know, maybe they're married, maybe they're maybe they're married, maybe they're maybe they're married, maybe they're not, but if if they are married, how do not, but if if they are married, how do not, but if if they are married, how do you begin you begin you begin to work through some of those early to work through some of those early to work through some of those early challenges, no matter what it is. I challenges, no matter what it is. I challenges, no matter what it is. I don't care if it's it's money, sex, it's don't care if it's it's money, sex, it's don't care if it's it's money, sex, it's the power thing, it's it's other issues the power thing, it's it's other issues the power thing, it's it's other issues you have going on. How you work through you have going on. How you work through you have going on. How you work through them and them and them and I think you have to not hope they get I think you have to not hope they get I think you have to not hope they get better. I think you have to do something better. I think you have to do something better. I think you have to do something intentionally.

intentionally. intentionally. And so, you know, what what what Jamie And so, you know, what what what Jamie And so, you know, what what what Jamie and I did is, you know, hope isn't a and I did is, you know, hope isn't a and I did is, you know, hope isn't a hope isn't a strategy, it's important, hope isn't a strategy, it's important, hope isn't a strategy, it's important, but hope isn't a strategy but hope isn't a strategy but hope isn't a strategy is we began to put in place even some is we began to put in place even some is we began to put in place even some systems with our marriage where we date systems with our marriage where we date systems with our marriage where we date weekly. weekly. weekly. We escape yearly. I mean, we are we are We escape yearly. I mean, we are we are We escape yearly. I mean, we are we are there's not a year that goes by that there's not a year that goes by that there's not a year that goes by that we're not going to get away on a we're not going to get away on a we're not going to get away on a vacation just the two of us. vacation just the two of us. vacation just the two of us. Without the kids. Without the kids. Without the kids. Without the kids, right? And then we we Without the kids, right? And then we we Without the kids, right? And then we we still to this day we we see a counselor still to this day we we see a counselor still to this day we we see a counselor whether we feel like we need it or not whether we feel like we need it or not whether we feel like we need it or not every couple months. every couple months. every couple months. Wow. Wow. Wow. Um Um Um It's a nice tune-up. It's a nice tune-up. It's a nice tune-up. And there's sometimes we walk into that And there's sometimes we walk into that And there's sometimes we walk into that meeting and we're going meeting and we're going meeting and we're going what what are we even going to talk what what are we even going to talk what what are we even going to talk about today? And we get done with it and about today? And we get done with it and about today? And we get done with it and we're like, oh Oh we're like, oh Oh we're like, oh Oh Yeah. we have. Yeah. we have. Yeah. we have. There's always something. There's always something. There's always something. So, what are you doing with that with So, what are you doing with that with So, what are you doing with that with that young leader listening? What are that young leader listening? What are that young leader listening? What are you doing you doing you doing to intentionally to intentionally to intentionally begin to move beyond and deal with some begin to move beyond and deal with some begin to move beyond and deal with some of the things that that could be of the things that that could be of the things that that could be barriers or holding you back? And then barriers or holding you back? And then barriers or holding you back? And then you can't hope or or just live off your you can't hope or or just live off your you can't hope or or just live off your intentions. You need to take some action intentions. You need to take some action intentions. You need to take some action today. You need to make a phone call.

today. You need to make a phone call. today. You need to make a phone call. You need to you need to schedule, you You need to you need to schedule, you You need to you need to schedule, you know, something on your calendar to take know, something on your calendar to take know, something on your calendar to take some steps. some steps. some steps. I feel like if our life feels like it's I feel like if our life feels like it's I feel like if our life feels like it's out of control in one area or another, out of control in one area or another, out of control in one area or another, it's probably a systems problem. We're it's probably a systems problem. We're it's probably a systems problem. We're high systems, so we run we run a lot of high systems, so we run we run a lot of high systems, so we run we run a lot of systems at the same time. So, like if systems at the same time. So, like if systems at the same time. So, like if you feel like a marriage issue is out of you feel like a marriage issue is out of you feel like a marriage issue is out of control, control, control, do you like have a system in place to do you like have a system in place to do you like have a system in place to manage that? And so, we don't get manage that? And so, we don't get manage that? And so, we don't get overwhelmed with all the problems of the overwhelmed with all the problems of the overwhelmed with all the problems of the day. We sort of have we we need a better day. We sort of have we we need a better day. We sort of have we we need a better system or a better policy to help manage system or a better policy to help manage system or a better policy to help manage this cuz we're just stewards. Just this cuz we're just stewards. Just this cuz we're just stewards. Just hanging in on. hanging in on. hanging in on. Yep. Yep. Yep. Have you written or spoken at some Have you written or spoken at some Have you written or spoken at some length about the radical generosity length about the radical generosity length about the radical generosity thing you talked about? Well, somebody thing you talked about? Well, somebody thing you talked about? Well, somebody somebody watching this needs to get you somebody watching this needs to get you somebody watching this needs to get you guys a book deal. You need to write guys a book deal. You need to write guys a book deal. You need to write about that. You need to about that. You need to about that. You need to you need to do some teaching on that you need to do some teaching on that you need to do some teaching on that because I think that's really because I think that's really because I think that's really going to help a lot of people. And I've going to help a lot of people. And I've going to help a lot of people. And I've I've seen you act it out personally and I've seen you act it out personally and I've seen you act it out personally and also organizationally. also organizationally. also organizationally. So, people are going to want more. So, So, people are going to want more. So, So, people are going to want more. So, where can they find you online and where where can they find you online and where where can they find you online and where can they access what's happening today?

can they access what's happening today? can they access what's happening today? We we've taught on the radical We we've taught on the radical We we've taught on the radical generosity thing. No no book yet. Maybe generosity thing. No no book yet. Maybe generosity thing. No no book yet. Maybe No book maybe maybe someday. No book maybe maybe someday. No book maybe maybe someday. a series we can link to. a series we can link to. a series we can link to. Yeah, we've done a series and we've Yeah, we've done a series and we've Yeah, we've done a series and we've spoken different different places on it spoken different different places on it spoken different different places on it cuz it's a big passion of ours and um cuz it's a big passion of ours and um cuz it's a big passion of ours and um but yeah, ccv.church uh is is our but yeah, ccv.church uh is is our but yeah, ccv.church uh is is our church's website um and we have social church's website um and we have social church's website um and we have social channels everywhere. I'm I'm on channels everywhere. I'm I'm on channels everywhere. I'm I'm on Instagram um personally probably most Instagram um personally probably most Instagram um personally probably most active there. active there. active there. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then And then And then I am not. I am not. I am not. No, I know. I went to tag you the other No, I know. I went to tag you the other No, I know. I went to tag you the other day and I'm like, "Nope. There's a lot day and I'm like, "Nope. There's a lot day and I'm like, "Nope. There's a lot of Jamie Wolmer out there." of Jamie Wolmer out there." of Jamie Wolmer out there." No, I felt like for a person like me No, I felt like for a person like me No, I felt like for a person like me that can have deep-seated identity that can have deep-seated identity that can have deep-seated identity issues, Instagram is not the place. issues, Instagram is not the place. issues, Instagram is not the place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I can be found in the junior high So, I can be found in the junior high So, I can be found in the junior high building on Saturday nights. That is fantastic. Well, Jamie Ashley, That is fantastic. Well, Jamie Ashley, thank you both so so much. This is your thank you both so so much. This is your thank you both so so much. This is your friendship your leadership has really friendship your leadership has really friendship your leadership has really blessed me and I know that you really blessed me and I know that you really blessed me and I know that you really helped a lot of people listening and helped a lot of people listening and helped a lot of people listening and watching today. Thank you. watching today. Thank you. watching today. Thank you. Carrie, can I can I just take the moment Carrie, can I can I just take the moment Carrie, can I can I just take the moment and say and say and say I listen to your podcast almost every I listen to your podcast almost every I listen to your podcast almost every week and I just think what what you're week and I just think what what you're week and I just think what what you're doing is contributing to so many people doing is contributing to so many people doing is contributing to so many people and thank you for you and Tony. We get and thank you for you and Tony. We get and thank you for you and Tony. We get to see you behind the scenes and I would to see you behind the scenes and I would to see you behind the scenes and I would say what you see behind the scenes is is say what you see behind the scenes is is say what you see behind the scenes is is even better than what you get see in even better than what you get see in even better than what you get see in front of in front of the camera front of in front of the camera front of in front of the camera listening online. So, thanks for all you listening online. So, thanks for all you listening online. So, thanks for all you do.

do. do. That means a lot. That means a lot. We That means a lot. That means a lot. We That means a lot. That means a lot. We want to bring hope to the church, but we want to bring hope to the church, but we want to bring hope to the church, but we want to bring real hope. want to bring real hope. want to bring real hope. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's honest conversations And I think it's honest conversations And I think it's honest conversations rather than just the highlight reel of, rather than just the highlight reel of, rather than just the highlight reel of, "No, we've never had a fight about "No, we've never had a fight about "No, we've never had a fight about anything." It's like, "We almost killed anything." It's like, "We almost killed anything." It's like, "We almost killed each other in our 20s." each other in our 20s." each other in our 20s." Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. So did Tony and I, So did Tony and I, So did Tony and I, you know, and maybe in our 40s and 50s. you know, and maybe in our 40s and 50s. you know, and maybe in our 40s and 50s. But, you know, you just you got to come But, you know, you just you got to come But, you know, you just you got to come through it together and I thank God through it together and I thank God through it together and I thank God weaves his stories in these very real weaves his stories in these very real weaves his stories in these very real moments. So, for your transparency, your moments. So, for your transparency, your moments. So, for your transparency, your honesty and also for your ministry and honesty and also for your ministry and honesty and also for your ministry and your friendship, thank you both very your friendship, thank you both very your friendship, thank you both very much. much. much. Thank you.