Answers to Your Toughest Christian Leadership Problems

I would use what was going well at work I would use what was going well at work to sort of be a justification for well to sort of be a justification for well to sort of be a justification for well you know clearly it can't be that bad I you know clearly it can't be that bad I you know clearly it can't be that bad I can't be that bad as a husband because can't be that bad as a husband because can't be that bad as a husband because look at what God is doing at church look at what God is doing at church look at what God is doing at church welcome to the car newoff leadership welcome to the car newoff leadership welcome to the car newoff leadership podcast hey I'm so glad that you joined podcast hey I'm so glad that you joined podcast hey I'm so glad that you joined us today you know our goal here is to us today you know our goal here is to us today you know our goal here is to help you thrive in life and Leadership help you thrive in life and Leadership help you thrive in life and Leadership and today I'm going to do something and today I'm going to do something and today I'm going to do something different okay I'm taking your questions different okay I'm taking your questions different okay I'm taking your questions I reached out on social media and in my I reached out on social media and in my I reached out on social media and in my art of leadership academy and I said art of leadership academy and I said art of leadership academy and I said it's time for you to pick my brain what it's time for you to pick my brain what it's time for you to pick my brain what do you want want me to talk about so do you want want me to talk about so do you want want me to talk about so today it's my answers to your questions today it's my answers to your questions today it's my answers to your questions and this month we're going to try a and this month we're going to try a and this month we're going to try a couple episodes on this one this month couple episodes on this one this month couple episodes on this one this month and then one next month this month I'm and then one next month this month I'm and then one next month this month I'm going to focus more on the personal going to focus more on the personal going to focus more on the personal questions that you ask on ambition on questions that you ask on ambition on questions that you ask on ambition on burnout on sustainable leadership burnout on sustainable leadership burnout on sustainable leadership friendships and even a really hard issue friendships and even a really hard issue friendships and even a really hard issue firing people and so thank you so much firing people and so thank you so much firing people and so thank you so much for all the young leaders who uh for all the young leaders who uh for all the young leaders who uh submitted questions or we're going to submitted questions or we're going to submitted questions or we're going to take as many as we can today the next take as many as we can today the next take as many as we can today the next month we're going to come back we'll month we're going to come back we'll month we're going to come back we'll talk about organizational challenges and talk about organizational challenges and talk about organizational challenges and this week I'm going to give away a copy this week I'm going to give away a copy this week I'm going to give away a copy of my book at your best how to get time of my book at your best how to get time of my book at your best how to get time energy and priorities working in your energy and priorities working in your energy and priorities working in your favor five of you are going to be the favor five of you are going to be the favor five of you are going to be the lucky winners so I know most of you are lucky winners so I know most of you are lucky winners so I know most of you are listening to this podcast not watching listening to this podcast not watching listening to this podcast not watching but to enter here's what you do go to my but to enter here's what you do go to my but to enter here's what you do go to my YouTube channel or if you're watching on YouTube channel or if you're watching on YouTube channel or if you're watching on YouTube right now leave a comment saying YouTube right now leave a comment saying YouTube right now leave a comment saying I'm ready to live at my best we are I'm ready to live at my best we are I'm ready to live at my best we are going to pick five people and uh we're going to pick five people and uh we're going to pick five people and uh we're going to dive in so wherever you're

going to dive in so wherever you're going to dive in so wherever you're joining us from today so glad you joined joining us from today so glad you joined joining us from today so glad you joined us we're going to dive into your us we're going to dive into your us we're going to dive into your questions in just a moment but first a questions in just a moment but first a questions in just a moment but first a word from our carefully chosen Partners word from our carefully chosen Partners word from our carefully chosen Partners this episode is brought to you by Glue this episode is brought to you by Glue this episode is brought to you by Glue as a leader you're called The Shepherd as a leader you're called The Shepherd as a leader you're called The Shepherd your congregation but what if you're your congregation but what if you're your congregation but what if you're missing red flags or making decisions in missing red flags or making decisions in missing red flags or making decisions in the dark and leaving your Church's the dark and leaving your Church's the dark and leaving your Church's future to chance you know that can leave future to chance you know that can leave future to chance you know that can leave you feeling out of control as a leader you feeling out of control as a leader you feeling out of control as a leader because here's what you need you need because here's what you need you need because here's what you need you need insights that eliminate doubt and insights that eliminate doubt and insights that eliminate doubt and uncertainty and that give you Clarity to uncertainty and that give you Clarity to uncertainty and that give you Clarity to lead with confidence so you can make lead with confidence so you can make lead with confidence so you can make better decisions that impact your better decisions that impact your better decisions that impact your ministry's reach so you can take back ministry's reach so you can take back ministry's reach so you can take back control and I'm going to tell you how control and I'm going to tell you how control and I'm going to tell you how all you have to do is connect Church all you have to do is connect Church all you have to do is connect Church metrics with glue and you'll be able to metrics with glue and you'll be able to metrics with glue and you'll be able to track attendance giving salvations and track attendance giving salvations and track attendance giving salvations and Volunteers in real time you'll also get Volunteers in real time you'll also get Volunteers in real time you'll also get powerful AI driven insights you'll be powerful AI driven insights you'll be powerful AI driven insights you'll be able to compare numbers year-over-year able to compare numbers year-over-year able to compare numbers year-over-year across campuses or even against get this across campuses or even against get this across campuses or even against get this National Trends leaders who see what's National Trends leaders who see what's National Trends leaders who see what's coming and those who don't are often the coming and those who don't are often the coming and those who don't are often the difference between thriving and difference between thriving and difference between thriving and struggling churches so the question is struggling churches so the question is struggling churches so the question is which one will you be so if you're ready which one will you be so if you're ready which one will you be so if you're ready to lead with confidence and wisdom visit to lead with confidence and wisdom visit to lead with confidence and wisdom visit glue.com glue.com glue.com insights today that's insights today that's insights today that's g.com insights today all right our first g.com insights today all right our first g.com insights today all right our first ever pick My Brain episode so if you're ever pick My Brain episode so if you're ever pick My Brain episode so if you're ready let's dive in I'm going to start ready let's dive in I'm going to start ready let's dive in I'm going to start with a question from a Austin a young with a question from a Austin a young with a question from a Austin a young leader in my art of leadership academy

leader in my art of leadership academy leader in my art of leadership academy who asked and this is this is his who asked and this is this is his who asked and this is this is his question quote I'm interested in what question quote I'm interested in what question quote I'm interested in what you would say to your younger self you would say to your younger self you would say to your younger self regarding your ambition and high regarding your ambition and high regarding your ambition and high achiever personality so I definitely achiever personality so I definitely achiever personality so I definitely still have a high achiever personality still have a high achiever personality still have a high achiever personality okay in the time of founding Conexus the okay in the time of founding Conexus the okay in the time of founding Conexus the church that I helped start and church that I helped start and church that I helped start and experiencing fast growth and then experiencing fast growth and then experiencing fast growth and then burnout how would you Mentor yourself to burnout how would you Mentor yourself to burnout how would you Mentor yourself to capitalize on the positives while capitalize on the positives while capitalize on the positives while managing the shadow side and then he managing the shadow side and then he managing the shadow side and then he asks how did this impact your personal asks how did this impact your personal asks how did this impact your personal spiritual family and Leadership life spiritual family and Leadership life spiritual family and Leadership life well Austin that's a great question uh well Austin that's a great question uh well Austin that's a great question uh so yeah we did start Conexus a number of so yeah we did start Conexus a number of so yeah we did start Conexus a number of years ago and for those of you who are years ago and for those of you who are years ago and for those of you who are Church Planters you know what an Church Planters you know what an Church Planters you know what an epically exhausting season that actually epically exhausting season that actually epically exhausting season that actually is and it was about uh a year before is and it was about uh a year before is and it was about uh a year before starting Conexus actually that I burned starting Conexus actually that I burned starting Conexus actually that I burned out it was uh a decade of meteoric out it was uh a decade of meteoric out it was uh a decade of meteoric growth in our church and so I want to growth in our church and so I want to growth in our church and so I want to get to this part of your question first get to this part of your question first get to this part of your question first how did this affect my personal how did this affect my personal how did this affect my personal spiritual family and Leadership so spiritual family and Leadership so spiritual family and Leadership so honestly I'm just giving you raw answers honestly I'm just giving you raw answers honestly I'm just giving you raw answers here it was a double-edged sword all here it was a double-edged sword all here it was a double-edged sword all right I did not do everything well so right I did not do everything well so right I did not do everything well so first of all I am a very driven first of all I am a very driven first of all I am a very driven ambitious person I spent a lot of the ambitious person I spent a lot of the ambitious person I spent a lot of the last 30 years trying to unpack that last 30 years trying to unpack that last 30 years trying to unpack that ambition to figure out where it's Godly ambition to figure out where it's Godly ambition to figure out where it's Godly and where it's not godly and I would say and where it's not godly and I would say and where it's not godly and I would say throughout my 30s leading up to the throughout my 30s leading up to the throughout my 30s leading up to the founding of Conexus there were a lot of founding of Conexus there were a lot of founding of Conexus there were a lot of ambitious motivations that were not

ambitious motivations that were not ambitious motivations that were not healthy and it negatively impacted my healthy and it negatively impacted my healthy and it negatively impacted my personal spiritual family and arguably personal spiritual family and arguably personal spiritual family and arguably leadership life through my 30s so what leadership life through my 30s so what leadership life through my 30s so what did that actually look like to be did that actually look like to be did that actually look like to be specific we are growing like crazy we specific we are growing like crazy we specific we are growing like crazy we had year after year of 30% growth so if had year after year of 30% growth so if had year after year of 30% growth so if you've ever been part of a growing you've ever been part of a growing you've ever been part of a growing Church you know how difficult that is Church you know how difficult that is Church you know how difficult that is they say roughly 15% growth is they say roughly 15% growth is they say roughly 15% growth is sustainable in other words your systems sustainable in other words your systems sustainable in other words your systems are going to be able to keep up are going to be able to keep up are going to be able to keep up with your uh with your organizational with your uh with your organizational with your uh with your organizational growth rate uh but we are growing at 30% growth rate uh but we are growing at 30% growth rate uh but we are growing at 30% year after year and I was hanging on for year after year and I was hanging on for year after year and I was hanging on for dear life now the the problem with my dear life now the the problem with my dear life now the the problem with my ambition and my high achiever ambition and my high achiever ambition and my high achiever personality is I love that and things personality is I love that and things personality is I love that and things were not going as well at home in that were not going as well at home in that were not going as well at home in that decade and I would use what was going decade and I would use what was going decade and I would use what was going well at work to sort of be a well at work to sort of be a well at work to sort of be a justification for well you know clearly justification for well you know clearly justification for well you know clearly it can't be that bad can't be that bad it can't be that bad can't be that bad it can't be that bad can't be that bad as a husband because look at what God is as a husband because look at what God is as a husband because look at what God is doing at church right so I looked at doing at church right so I looked at doing at church right so I looked at that and then the other problem with that and then the other problem with that and then the other problem with that Austin to be totally that Austin to be totally that Austin to be totally transparent is uh I probably took the transparent is uh I probably took the transparent is uh I probably took the growth rate because we were the fastest growth rate because we were the fastest growth rate because we were the fastest growing Church in the country in our growing Church in the country in our growing Church in the country in our nomination as a bad badge of honor so nomination as a bad badge of honor so nomination as a bad badge of honor so there was definitely Pride there and there was definitely Pride there and there was definitely Pride there and then I saw it as validation from God then I saw it as validation from God then I saw it as validation from God well there were some pretty well there were some pretty well there were some pretty unhealthy impulses underneath that I unhealthy impulses underneath that I unhealthy impulses underneath that I liked the the growth too much so what liked the the growth too much so what liked the the growth too much so what saved me by the grace of God and this is

saved me by the grace of God and this is saved me by the grace of God and this is going to sound very counterintuitive was going to sound very counterintuitive was going to sound very counterintuitive was my burnout which happened a year before my burnout which happened a year before my burnout which happened a year before launching Conexus where we reconfigured launching Conexus where we reconfigured launching Conexus where we reconfigured as a church became non-denominational as a church became non-denominational as a church became non-denominational and started Conexus um my burnout was a and started Conexus um my burnout was a and started Conexus um my burnout was a dead stop I thought I was on top of the dead stop I thought I was on top of the dead stop I thought I was on top of the world some of you know the story because world some of you know the story because world some of you know the story because you've read my books listen to this you've read my books listen to this you've read my books listen to this podcast for a long time but I gave the podcast for a long time but I gave the podcast for a long time but I gave the talk of my life in front of 25 200 talk of my life in front of 25 200 talk of my life in front of 25 200 people in Atlanta flew home and fell off people in Atlanta flew home and fell off people in Atlanta flew home and fell off a cliff and what that did because my a cliff and what that did because my a cliff and what that did because my life because my burnout was so extreme life because my burnout was so extreme life because my burnout was so extreme my life came to a halt in the summer of my life came to a halt in the summer of my life came to a halt in the summer of 2006 almost 20 years ago and I had to 2006 almost 20 years ago and I had to 2006 almost 20 years ago and I had to re-evaluate everything you know I did re-evaluate everything you know I did re-evaluate everything you know I did not declare a Finish Line so my body did not declare a Finish Line so my body did not declare a Finish Line so my body did and I couldn't I couldn't get back like and I couldn't I couldn't get back like and I couldn't I couldn't get back like before I would get tired in my 30s I before I would get tired in my 30s I before I would get tired in my 30s I would get tired and then it's just like would get tired and then it's just like would get tired and then it's just like well just keep going just keep going and well just keep going just keep going and well just keep going just keep going and people told me I was going to burnout I people told me I was going to burnout I people told me I was going to burnout I wasn't listening but you know my burnout wasn't listening but you know my burnout wasn't listening but you know my burnout for its depth got my full attention and for its depth got my full attention and for its depth got my full attention and so I had to re-evaluate everything I so I had to re-evaluate everything I so I had to re-evaluate everything I knew because basically I broke like the knew because basically I broke like the knew because basically I broke like the the model I had used to that point in my the model I had used to that point in my the model I had used to that point in my life four life four life four decades fell to Pieces before my eyes so decades fell to Pieces before my eyes so decades fell to Pieces before my eyes so I started to investigate with counseling I started to investigate with counseling I started to investigate with counseling and Friends okay clearly the pace I was and Friends okay clearly the pace I was and Friends okay clearly the pace I was running at is not sustainable clearly running at is not sustainable clearly running at is not sustainable clearly the things that made me successful broke the things that made me successful broke the things that made me successful broke in the end what do I need to do and in the end what do I need to do and in the end what do I need to do and that's spent you know I've talked about that's spent you know I've talked about that's spent you know I've talked about this 3 to five years kind of

this 3 to five years kind of this 3 to five years kind of reinvigorating my life reevaluating my reinvigorating my life reevaluating my reinvigorating my life reevaluating my life trying to figure out what I needed life trying to figure out what I needed life trying to figure out what I needed to do differently and here's the lesson to do differently and here's the lesson to do differently and here's the lesson I would say because you may be at an I would say because you may be at an I would say because you may be at an inflection point right now Austin I inflection point right now Austin I inflection point right now Austin I don't know 100% of your story but for don't know 100% of your story but for don't know 100% of your story but for those of you who are listening who are those of you who are listening who are those of you who are listening who are at a place where you feel like your at a place where you feel like your at a place where you feel like your current system is breaking go deep and current system is breaking go deep and current system is breaking go deep and what I learned I had about 3 months what I learned I had about 3 months what I learned I had about 3 months where I could barely do anything and where I could barely do anything and where I could barely do anything and then you know I had a lot of muscle then you know I had a lot of muscle then you know I had a lot of muscle memory it kind of came back memory it kind of came back memory it kind of came back but I spent several years kind of but I spent several years kind of but I spent several years kind of Reinventing rethinking praying through Reinventing rethinking praying through Reinventing rethinking praying through how do I live at a sustainable pace and how do I live at a sustainable pace and how do I live at a sustainable pace and the lesson is if God wants to go deep the lesson is if God wants to go deep the lesson is if God wants to go deep it's because he wants to take you far if it's because he wants to take you far if it's because he wants to take you far if this kind of you know influence or this kind of you know influence or this kind of you know influence or whatever you want to call it that I have whatever you want to call it that I have whatever you want to call it that I have now had happened in my 30s I think I now had happened in my 30s I think I now had happened in my 30s I think I would have been a headline I think I would have been a headline I think I would have been a headline I think I would have been a stat so um I really would have been a stat so um I really would have been a stat so um I really had to go deep and that happened around had to go deep and that happened around had to go deep and that happened around 4041 and that was because God wanted to 4041 and that was because God wanted to 4041 and that was because God wanted to take me you know further I didn't know take me you know further I didn't know take me you know further I didn't know that at the time I was just trying to that at the time I was just trying to that at the time I was just trying to survive day-to-day and be a better survive day-to-day and be a better survive day-to-day and be a better husband and father and boss and leader husband and father and boss and leader husband and father and boss and leader uh and I would say one more thing before uh and I would say one more thing before uh and I would say one more thing before we move to the next question on ambition we move to the next question on ambition we move to the next question on ambition and high Achievers you got to keep your and high Achievers you got to keep your and high Achievers you got to keep your priorities straight what I didn't know priorities straight what I didn't know priorities straight what I didn't know in my 30s and I know now is that people in my 30s and I know now is that people in my 30s and I know now is that people are more important than tasks I had it are more important than tasks I had it are more important than tasks I had it flipped I honestly and I remember saying flipped I honestly and I remember saying flipped I honestly and I remember saying this out loud in front of other people this out loud in front of other people this out loud in front of other people you know there's some people who are you know there's some people who are you know there's some people who are people people and some people who are people people and some people who are people people and some people who are task people uh but I'm really a task task people uh but I'm really a task task people uh but I'm really a task person I just got to get it done person I just got to get it done person I just got to get it done done that's wrong okay that's just wrong done that's wrong okay that's just wrong done that's wrong okay that's just wrong I had it flipped and now I realize

I had it flipped and now I realize I had it flipped and now I realize people are more important than tasks I people are more important than tasks I people are more important than tasks I still love to get stuff done but still love to get stuff done but still love to get stuff done but sometimes I can be that bulldozzer uh sometimes I can be that bulldozzer uh sometimes I can be that bulldozzer uh and what I've realized is I got to grow and what I've realized is I got to grow and what I've realized is I got to grow my character because it's my character my character because it's my character my character because it's my character not my competency that determines my not my competency that determines my not my competency that determines my capacity and I got to work twice as hard capacity and I got to work twice as hard capacity and I got to work twice as hard on my character as I do on my capacity on my character as I do on my capacity on my character as I do on my capacity so those are some thoughts on that I've so those are some thoughts on that I've so those are some thoughts on that I've been working on my character hard for been working on my character hard for been working on my character hard for years I am not done God is doing years I am not done God is doing years I am not done God is doing something very active in my life right something very active in my life right something very active in my life right now on the issue of Pride it's not fun now on the issue of Pride it's not fun now on the issue of Pride it's not fun it's not great uh but I know I'm going it's not great uh but I know I'm going it's not great uh but I know I'm going to be better for it so that's an honest to be better for it so that's an honest to be better for it so that's an honest answer to your question Austin um work answer to your question Austin um work answer to your question Austin um work twice as hard on your character as you twice as hard on your character as you twice as hard on your character as you do on your capacity all right now to the do on your capacity all right now to the do on your capacity all right now to the second question Dan dropped this one on second question Dan dropped this one on second question Dan dropped this one on Instagram how do you navigate being a Instagram how do you navigate being a Instagram how do you navigate being a professional Christian thank you I do professional Christian thank you I do professional Christian thank you I do not get this question enough I have not get this question enough I have not get this question enough I have wrestled with it for years cuz you know wrestled with it for years cuz you know wrestled with it for years cuz you know I didn't think I was going to be Pastor I didn't think I was going to be Pastor I didn't think I was going to be Pastor I was going to be a lawyer right thought I was going to be a lawyer right thought I was going to be a lawyer right thought about doing radio for a long time too about doing radio for a long time too about doing radio for a long time too and then I thought wow I get paid to and then I thought wow I get paid to and then I thought wow I get paid to believe in Jesus now that's not true of believe in Jesus now that's not true of believe in Jesus now that's not true of course I I I don't get paid to believe course I I I don't get paid to believe course I I I don't get paid to believe in Jesus but I really wrestled with that in Jesus but I really wrestled with that in Jesus but I really wrestled with that and the other thing I realized too is and the other thing I realized too is and the other thing I realized too is particularly because our church was particularly because our church was particularly because our church was trying to reach a lot of unchurched trying to reach a lot of unchurched trying to reach a lot of unchurched people when there were unchurched people people when there were unchurched people people when there were unchurched people in the room I'm like they are already in the room I'm like they are already in the room I'm like they are already disbelieving what I say because I quote disbelieving what I say because I quote disbelieving what I say because I quote get paid to say this stuff now obviously get paid to say this stuff now obviously get paid to say this stuff now obviously I believe it to the core of my being I believe it to the core of my being I believe it to the core of my being otherwise I wouldn't have gone into otherwise I wouldn't have gone into otherwise I wouldn't have gone into Ministry I still believe it but yeah for Ministry I still believe it but yeah for Ministry I still believe it but yeah for 20 years as a pastor 25 really you know

20 years as a pastor 25 really you know 20 years as a pastor 25 really you know where I was still teaching regularly I where I was still teaching regularly I where I was still teaching regularly I was paid to be a quote professional was paid to be a quote professional was paid to be a quote professional Christian and anybody who works on Christian and anybody who works on Christian and anybody who works on Church staff knows what this tension is Church staff knows what this tension is Church staff knows what this tension is so I've wrestled with it and this is so I've wrestled with it and this is so I've wrestled with it and this is what I decided early on this is like what I decided early on this is like what I decided early on this is like these are good decisions I shared a lot these are good decisions I shared a lot these are good decisions I shared a lot of bad decisions already I want to share of bad decisions already I want to share of bad decisions already I want to share a couple of good decisions I decided to a couple of good decisions I decided to a couple of good decisions I decided to develop a devotional personal life that develop a devotional personal life that develop a devotional personal life that had nothing to do with Ministry 3 years had nothing to do with Ministry 3 years had nothing to do with Ministry 3 years I think it was about 3 years into me I think it was about 3 years into me I think it was about 3 years into me pastoring a church I realized that I was pastoring a church I realized that I was pastoring a church I realized that I was starting to cheat on my Bible reading if starting to cheat on my Bible reading if starting to cheat on my Bible reading if I was preaching on Romans guess what I was preaching on Romans guess what I was preaching on Romans guess what showed up in my morning devotions Romans showed up in my morning devotions Romans showed up in my morning devotions Romans right so I I picked up a one-year Bible right so I I picked up a one-year Bible right so I I picked up a one-year Bible a couple years into Ministry and I'm a couple years into Ministry and I'm a couple years into Ministry and I'm still to this day I was reading from the still to this day I was reading from the still to this day I was reading from the oneye Bible this morning and what that oneye Bible this morning and what that oneye Bible this morning and what that did is it said to me in my head it was did is it said to me in my head it was did is it said to me in my head it was like a mind game okay if I got fired or like a mind game okay if I got fired or like a mind game okay if I got fired or I left Ministry today this is what my I left Ministry today this is what my I left Ministry today this is what my devotional life might look like and devotional life might look like and devotional life might look like and right now I'm not technically paid to be right now I'm not technically paid to be right now I'm not technically paid to be a professional Christian anymore I'm not a professional Christian anymore I'm not a professional Christian anymore I'm not on staff at a church but I open up my on staff at a church but I open up my on staff at a church but I open up my Bible read five or six chapters of Bible read five or six chapters of Bible read five or six chapters of scripture this morning another thing I scripture this morning another thing I scripture this morning another thing I did early on in leadership and this is did early on in leadership and this is did early on in leadership and this is going to sound probably a little going to sound probably a little going to sound probably a little heretical was I developed a prayer life heretical was I developed a prayer life heretical was I developed a prayer life outside of work it was so easy you know outside of work it was so easy you know outside of work it was so easy you know in Ministry to be overwhelmed day-to-day in Ministry to be overwhelmed day-to-day in Ministry to be overwhelmed day-to-day with just prayer request that come in with just prayer request that come in with just prayer request that come in and we have prayer teams and everything and we have prayer teams and everything and we have prayer teams and everything and I I do pray about work but I thought and I I do pray about work but I thought and I I do pray about work but I thought okay if I didn't work at a church what okay if I didn't work at a church what okay if I didn't work at a church what would I be praying about dayto day and would I be praying about dayto day and would I be praying about dayto day and so the majority of my prayer life

so the majority of my prayer life so the majority of my prayer life actually over the last 25 years more actually over the last 25 years more actually over the last 25 years more than that now has been about things that than that now has been about things that than that now has been about things that I uh wasn't necessarily like I would I uh wasn't necessarily like I would I uh wasn't necessarily like I would pray about staff challenges or whatever pray about staff challenges or whatever pray about staff challenges or whatever people who were in hospital or people people who were in hospital or people people who were in hospital or people who were you know dying and that kind of who were you know dying and that kind of who were you know dying and that kind of thing I would definitely pray for that thing I would definitely pray for that thing I would definitely pray for that but I try to focus the majority of my but I try to focus the majority of my but I try to focus the majority of my prayer life on what would happen if I prayer life on what would happen if I prayer life on what would happen if I didn't work for a church so I would say didn't work for a church so I would say didn't work for a church so I would say the principle there is develop a the principle there is develop a the principle there is develop a devotional and also uh you know prayer devotional and also uh you know prayer devotional and also uh you know prayer life that has nothing to do with life that has nothing to do with life that has nothing to do with Ministry so uh another question that I Ministry so uh another question that I Ministry so uh another question that I started to ask not so much at the started to ask not so much at the started to ask not so much at the beginning but at the end and I I beginning but at the end and I I beginning but at the end and I I remember challenging my team with this remember challenging my team with this remember challenging my team with this when I was lead Pastor is I would just when I was lead Pastor is I would just when I was lead Pastor is I would just ask them if you were to stop Ministry ask them if you were to stop Ministry ask them if you were to stop Ministry today what would be left of your faith today what would be left of your faith today what would be left of your faith and again if you work at a church this and again if you work at a church this and again if you work at a church this is a mind game okay but I would ask is a mind game okay but I would ask is a mind game okay but I would ask myself I'm like what would I actually myself I'm like what would I actually myself I'm like what would I actually believe what would I not believe because believe what would I not believe because believe what would I not believe because I am paid to say these things and I am paid to say these things and I am paid to say these things and research these things Etc and I think research these things Etc and I think research these things Etc and I think that's a really good question if you that's a really good question if you that's a really good question if you were to stop Ministry today what would were to stop Ministry today what would were to stop Ministry today what would be left of your faith just wrestle with be left of your faith just wrestle with be left of your faith just wrestle with that one and the good news is you know that one and the good news is you know that one and the good news is you know now obviously I equip church and now obviously I equip church and now obviously I equip church and Business Leaders and all that stuff uh Business Leaders and all that stuff uh Business Leaders and all that stuff uh but I'm not on Church staff and I'm just but I'm not on Church staff and I'm just but I'm not on Church staff and I'm just a Christian who who sits in church and a Christian who who sits in church and a Christian who who sits in church and goes to small group I'm heading to a goes to small group I'm heading to a goes to small group I'm heading to a small group tonight and reads my Bible small group tonight and reads my Bible small group tonight and reads my Bible and the good news is there's a lot left and the good news is there's a lot left and the good news is there's a lot left in my faith and if I stop doing this in my faith and if I stop doing this in my faith and if I stop doing this tomorrow I think there's still a lot tomorrow I think there's still a lot tomorrow I think there's still a lot left of my faith maybe more I don't know left of my faith maybe more I don't know left of my faith maybe more I don't know but I think that's a great question to but I think that's a great question to but I think that's a great question to ask and maybe challenge your team with ask and maybe challenge your team with ask and maybe challenge your team with so thanks for that question Dan all

so thanks for that question Dan all so thanks for that question Dan all right next one Brian Hayes this one right next one Brian Hayes this one right next one Brian Hayes this one again from my art of leadership academy again from my art of leadership academy again from my art of leadership academy all right so let's go to the next all right so let's go to the next all right so let's go to the next question this is from Brian Hayes inside question this is from Brian Hayes inside question this is from Brian Hayes inside the art of leadership academy Brian asks the art of leadership academy Brian asks the art of leadership academy Brian asks have you discovered a healthy way to have you discovered a healthy way to have you discovered a healthy way to balance staying informed with culture balance staying informed with culture balance staying informed with culture politics and world events without it politics and world events without it politics and world events without it assuming your assuming your assuming your thoughts wow there's a big question uh thoughts wow there's a big question uh thoughts wow there's a big question uh honestly I am working on it I do not honestly I am working on it I do not honestly I am working on it I do not have a great answer for this I'm going have a great answer for this I'm going have a great answer for this I'm going to give you my answer but this is a to give you my answer but this is a to give you my answer but this is a constant tension and we've got episodes constant tension and we've got episodes constant tension and we've got episodes on the podcast this year that go into on the podcast this year that go into on the podcast this year that go into how rapidly culture and politics in the how rapidly culture and politics in the how rapidly culture and politics in the world are spinning out of world are spinning out of world are spinning out of control so you know one thing I've control so you know one thing I've control so you know one thing I've thought of I haven't acted on it was thought of I haven't acted on it was thought of I haven't acted on it was just to cut off like I take I take a just to cut off like I take I take a just to cut off like I take I take a couple of weeks off the grid in the couple of weeks off the grid in the couple of weeks off the grid in the summer every July and it's amazing you summer every July and it's amazing you summer every July and it's amazing you know we go to this little cabin on this know we go to this little cabin on this know we go to this little cabin on this beautiful Lake about an hour Northeast beautiful Lake about an hour Northeast beautiful Lake about an hour Northeast of where I live and when I'm not paying of where I live and when I'm not paying of where I live and when I'm not paying attention to the news it's amazing like attention to the news it's amazing like attention to the news it's amazing like the sun rises and it sets and the sun rises and it sets and the sun rises and it sets and everything's quiet and you have three everything's quiet and you have three everything's quiet and you have three meals a day and you maybe head out on meals a day and you maybe head out on meals a day and you maybe head out on the water for the day and you have no the water for the day and you have no the water for the day and you have no idea what's happening in Washington or idea what's happening in Washington or idea what's happening in Washington or Moscow or Ottawa or you know canura or Moscow or Ottawa or you know canura or Moscow or Ottawa or you know canura or London you just have no idea and it's London you just have no idea and it's London you just have no idea and it's like not a bad way to live go off the like not a bad way to live go off the like not a bad way to live go off the grid on the other hand I feel called to grid on the other hand I feel called to grid on the other hand I feel called to help leaders navigate church and culture help leaders navigate church and culture help leaders navigate church and culture and it's not a lot of fun so I would say and it's not a lot of fun so I would say and it's not a lot of fun so I would say transparently I'm working on it I've got

transparently I'm working on it I've got transparently I'm working on it I've got a few things that I think have helped a few things that I think have helped a few things that I think have helped and I want to offer that to you I'm not and I want to offer that to you I'm not and I want to offer that to you I'm not going to bury my head in the sand I going to bury my head in the sand I going to bury my head in the sand I don't feel like that's probably the most don't feel like that's probably the most don't feel like that's probably the most responsible thing for me to do but responsible thing for me to do but responsible thing for me to do but here's a couple things I've done number here's a couple things I've done number here's a couple things I've done number one I've have cut out TV news the only one I've have cut out TV news the only one I've have cut out TV news the only time I can honestly remember watching TV time I can honestly remember watching TV time I can honestly remember watching TV news in the news in the news in the last 4 years is around election time us last 4 years is around election time us last 4 years is around election time us or Canadian election I'm Canadian um so or Canadian election I'm Canadian um so or Canadian election I'm Canadian um so that's it I just want to see who's that's it I just want to see who's that's it I just want to see who's winning where and even there was an winning where and even there was an winning where and even there was an election recently and I just you know election recently and I just you know election recently and I just you know used my phone to navigate that one TV used my phone to navigate that one TV used my phone to navigate that one TV news is monetized to grab your attention news is monetized to grab your attention news is monetized to grab your attention and even with when there's no news they and even with when there's no news they and even with when there's no news they have to have news I mean you go back to have to have news I mean you go back to have to have news I mean you go back to the launch of CNN in I think it was the launch of CNN in I think it was the launch of CNN in I think it was 1984 prior to that the news fit into 5 1984 prior to that the news fit into 5 1984 prior to that the news fit into 5 minutes a day it was curated and that minutes a day it was curated and that minutes a day it was curated and that was it right the average newscast 6:30 was it right the average newscast 6:30 was it right the average newscast 6:30 on a on a on a weekday night would take on a on a on a weekday night would take on a on a on a weekday night would take you through what happened in the world you through what happened in the world you through what happened in the world today that's all you needed to know done today that's all you needed to know done today that's all you needed to know done now it's just this constant outrage now it's just this constant outrage now it's just this constant outrage trying to get clicks great book on this trying to get clicks great book on this trying to get clicks great book on this by the way is Chris Hayes uh the sirens by the way is Chris Hayes uh the sirens by the way is Chris Hayes uh the sirens call it's all about the attention call it's all about the attention call it's all about the attention economy he's actually a news broadcaster economy he's actually a news broadcaster economy he's actually a news broadcaster but he talks about how attention is but he talks about how attention is but he talks about how attention is really the economy that we're we're at really the economy that we're we're at really the economy that we're we're at right now um another thing so I cut out right now um another thing so I cut out right now um another thing so I cut out TV second thing I did I get 90% of my TV second thing I did I get 90% of my TV second thing I did I get 90% of my news from Paid sources okay so I'm going news from Paid sources okay so I'm going news from Paid sources okay so I'm going to sound OG here old school but I to sound OG here old school but I to sound OG here old school but I subscrib to a number of newspapers with

subscrib to a number of newspapers with subscrib to a number of newspapers with different political Slants some you know different political Slants some you know different political Slants some you know moderate some more conservative a couple moderate some more conservative a couple moderate some more conservative a couple little leaning left just so I get more little leaning left just so I get more little leaning left just so I get more balanced but I actually pay for it and balanced but I actually pay for it and balanced but I actually pay for it and the reason I pay for it is they have the reason I pay for it is they have the reason I pay for it is they have reporters it's not just opinion pieces I reporters it's not just opinion pieces I reporters it's not just opinion pieces I still think it's a little more reliable still think it's a little more reliable still think it's a little more reliable you now do I get actually a physical you now do I get actually a physical you now do I get actually a physical newspaper no I get it on my phone but I newspaper no I get it on my phone but I newspaper no I get it on my phone but I pay for subscriptions so that's a second pay for subscriptions so that's a second pay for subscriptions so that's a second thing I think if you pay for the sources thing I think if you pay for the sources thing I think if you pay for the sources of your news you're going to get more of your news you're going to get more of your news you're going to get more reliable news but hey we live in a a big reliable news but hey we live in a a big reliable news but hey we live in a a big world of spin um and if you're reading world of spin um and if you're reading world of spin um and if you're reading the New York Times you should read the New York Times you should read the New York Times you should read something more conservative if you're something more conservative if you're something more conservative if you're reading something conservative you reading something conservative you reading something conservative you should read something a little more left should read something a little more left should read something a little more left leaning as well just to balance you know leaning as well just to balance you know leaning as well just to balance you know and understand how other people think uh and understand how other people think uh and understand how other people think uh another thing I did and this is very another thing I did and this is very another thing I did and this is very recent in the last few months but recent in the last few months but recent in the last few months but starting with 2025 I set my phone to starting with 2025 I set my phone to starting with 2025 I set my phone to limit what I see each day and I I have limit what I see each day and I I have limit what I see each day and I I have limits on two things news consumption limits on two things news consumption limits on two things news consumption and social media so after 45 minutes of and social media so after 45 minutes of and social media so after 45 minutes of consumption in a day and it's amazing consumption in a day and it's amazing consumption in a day and it's amazing how quickly that racks up I get cut off how quickly that racks up I get cut off how quickly that racks up I get cut off now you can override it but I'm paying now you can override it but I'm paying now you can override it but I'm paying more attention to it that has helped more attention to it that has helped more attention to it that has helped even though this has been a very even though this has been a very even though this has been a very tumultuous year couple of other things I tumultuous year couple of other things I tumultuous year couple of other things I do uh books and magazines are really do uh books and magazines are really do uh books and magazines are really helpful I subscribe to the Harvard helpful I subscribe to the Harvard helpful I subscribe to the Harvard Business Review I subscribe to the Business Review I subscribe to the Business Review I subscribe to the Atlantic I have a friend who subscribes Atlantic I have a friend who subscribes Atlantic I have a friend who subscribes to The Economist which is kind of an to The Economist which is kind of an to The Economist which is kind of an objective uh thing I have a couple of objective uh thing I have a couple of objective uh thing I have a couple of online subscriptions too but like online subscriptions too but like online subscriptions too but like actually a magazine that comes to my actually a magazine that comes to my actually a magazine that comes to my house can be really good because it gets

house can be really good because it gets house can be really good because it gets you out of the news cycle of like boom you out of the news cycle of like boom you out of the news cycle of like boom boom boom boom boom and gets you into boom boom boom boom and gets you into boom boom boom boom and gets you into more opinion pieces and then um in terms more opinion pieces and then um in terms more opinion pieces and then um in terms of staying current with culture yeah I'm of staying current with culture yeah I'm of staying current with culture yeah I'm not getting younger but I surround not getting younger but I surround not getting younger but I surround myself with people younger than me who myself with people younger than me who myself with people younger than me who have uh a pulson culture then finally I have uh a pulson culture then finally I have uh a pulson culture then finally I do subscribe to some news Digest cuz I do subscribe to some news Digest cuz I do subscribe to some news Digest cuz I don't want to be bombarded with you know don't want to be bombarded with you know don't want to be bombarded with you know notifications I've said for years turn notifications I've said for years turn notifications I've said for years turn on notifications off on your phone on notifications off on your phone on notifications off on your phone generally I do that but I subscribe to generally I do that but I subscribe to generally I do that but I subscribe to just a name to the morning brew and the just a name to the morning brew and the just a name to the morning brew and the hustle and uh those really help me stay hustle and uh those really help me stay hustle and uh those really help me stay in touch their News Digest and they have in touch their News Digest and they have in touch their News Digest and they have opinion pieces so that helps and then I opinion pieces so that helps and then I opinion pieces so that helps and then I write a newsletter too I do on the rise write a newsletter too I do on the rise write a newsletter too I do on the rise so if you haven't subscribed to that so if you haven't subscribed to that so if you haven't subscribed to that check it out I think it's uh on theise check it out I think it's uh on theise check it out I think it's uh on theise newsletter. comom newsletter. comom newsletter. comom uh that's less news that's more like fun uh that's less news that's more like fun uh that's less news that's more like fun curious things I found on the internet curious things I found on the internet curious things I found on the internet but that's what I'm doing I don't have a but that's what I'm doing I don't have a but that's what I'm doing I don't have a good answer I don't like my answer but good answer I don't like my answer but good answer I don't like my answer but it's a challenge we're all facing that's it's a challenge we're all facing that's it's a challenge we're all facing that's what I'm doing to engage that one next what I'm doing to engage that one next what I'm doing to engage that one next question is from Avalon Avalon on social question is from Avalon Avalon on social question is from Avalon Avalon on social said what are healthy leadership habits said what are healthy leadership habits said what are healthy leadership habits and practices that lead to longevity and and practices that lead to longevity and and practices that lead to longevity and continued intimacy with God okay so have continued intimacy with God okay so have continued intimacy with God okay so have Aon this one's haunted me I I want to Aon this one's haunted me I I want to Aon this one's haunted me I I want to make sure I get the angle of your make sure I get the angle of your make sure I get the angle of your question right but this question right but this question right but this one has haunted me my whole life all one has haunted me my whole life all one has haunted me my whole life all right longevity and continued intimacy right longevity and continued intimacy right longevity and continued intimacy with God so I am in a hurry I'm always with God so I am in a hurry I'm always with God so I am in a hurry I'm always on in a hurry I'm always like trying to

on in a hurry I'm always like trying to on in a hurry I'm always like trying to get stuff done I want to speed up my get stuff done I want to speed up my get stuff done I want to speed up my devotions I want to speed up my work I devotions I want to speed up my work I devotions I want to speed up my work I want to optimize my workflow and when want to optimize my workflow and when want to optimize my workflow and when you think about you think about you think about intimacy intimacy never happens in a intimacy intimacy never happens in a intimacy intimacy never happens in a hurry right so I'm trying to prolong my hurry right so I'm trying to prolong my hurry right so I'm trying to prolong my devotion time did not have a devotion time did not have a devotion time did not have a particularly great one today I had a particularly great one today I had a particularly great one today I had a number of just personal stressors going number of just personal stressors going number of just personal stressors going on in my life and so but I had a really on in my life and so but I had a really on in my life and so but I had a really good one a couple days ago and guess good one a couple days ago and guess good one a couple days ago and guess what I'm going to go at it again what I'm going to go at it again what I'm going to go at it again tomorrow and maybe my prayer time will tomorrow and maybe my prayer time will tomorrow and maybe my prayer time will be a little bit better than it was today be a little bit better than it was today be a little bit better than it was today intimacy is a long obedience in the same intimacy is a long obedience in the same intimacy is a long obedience in the same direction right and when I think about direction right and when I think about direction right and when I think about it what I want to find and what I'm it what I want to find and what I'm it what I want to find and what I'm still moving toward is a sustainable still moving toward is a sustainable still moving toward is a sustainable Pace in my life so uh I have a bunch of Pace in my life so uh I have a bunch of Pace in my life so uh I have a bunch of Rules by the way if you've entered that Rules by the way if you've entered that Rules by the way if you've entered that like uh given away my book at your best like uh given away my book at your best like uh given away my book at your best on YouTube uh this covers it in a lot on YouTube uh this covers it in a lot on YouTube uh this covers it in a lot more detail than I'm going to in the more detail than I'm going to in the more detail than I'm going to in the answer to this question but I realized a answer to this question but I realized a answer to this question but I realized a long time ago that uh time off is not long time ago that uh time off is not long time ago that uh time off is not going to heal you like two weeks or four going to heal you like two weeks or four going to heal you like two weeks or four weeks of vacation I take July off every weeks of vacation I take July off every weeks of vacation I take July off every year is not going to solve a sustainable year is not going to solve a sustainable year is not going to solve a sustainable Pace you have to figure out a rhythm Pace you have to figure out a rhythm Pace you have to figure out a rhythm that is time on all right so you know that is time on all right so you know that is time on all right so you know time off won't heal you when the problem time off won't heal you when the problem time off won't heal you when the problem is how you spend your time on so when is how you spend your time on so when is how you spend your time on so when I'm on like today is a work day for me I'm on like today is a work day for me I'm on like today is a work day for me I've got to find a sustainable pace so I've got to find a sustainable pace so I've got to find a sustainable pace so what have I done to do that well a what have I done to do that well a what have I done to do that well a couple of things and this is an ongoing couple of things and this is an ongoing couple of things and this is an ongoing challenge too I have had to elevate the

challenge too I have had to elevate the challenge too I have had to elevate the level at which I say no I was talking level at which I say no I was talking level at which I say no I was talking with a friend of mine yesterday about with a friend of mine yesterday about with a friend of mine yesterday about this and some of the things I'm saying this and some of the things I'm saying this and some of the things I'm saying no to today speaking requests no to today speaking requests no to today speaking requests opportunities invitations I would have opportunities invitations I would have opportunities invitations I would have never dreamed to get 5 years ago but now never dreamed to get 5 years ago but now never dreamed to get 5 years ago but now now it's like no I I can only do so many now it's like no I I can only do so many now it's like no I I can only do so many things I can only speak at so many things I can only speak at so many things I can only speak at so many events I can only take so many meetings events I can only take so many meetings events I can only take so many meetings and I know if I take too many then I'm and I know if I take too many then I'm and I know if I take too many then I'm running too fast I get tired I get running too fast I get tired I get running too fast I get tired I get grumpy uh that is not a recipe for grumpy uh that is not a recipe for grumpy uh that is not a recipe for longevity or a healthy Habit in longevity or a healthy Habit in longevity or a healthy Habit in leadership so I have to continually and leadership so I have to continually and leadership so I have to continually and you know talk to Katie my assistant you know talk to Katie my assistant you know talk to Katie my assistant about this this is a weekly dialogue about this this is a weekly dialogue about this this is a weekly dialogue like what do I say yes to what do I say like what do I say yes to what do I say like what do I say yes to what do I say no to and it seems to get harder every no to and it seems to get harder every no to and it seems to get harder every year but you've got to maintain that year but you've got to maintain that year but you've got to maintain that level of level of level of no another thing that I would say has no another thing that I would say has no another thing that I would say has really helped me I think a lot about really helped me I think a lot about really helped me I think a lot about this again I wrote about this in at your this again I wrote about this in at your this again I wrote about this in at your best so if you win one of the five best so if you win one of the five best so if you win one of the five copies you're going to see more about copies you're going to see more about copies you're going to see more about this but dunbar's number Robin Dunbar is this but dunbar's number Robin Dunbar is this but dunbar's number Robin Dunbar is a British evolutionary psychologist not a British evolutionary psychologist not a British evolutionary psychologist not a Christian but has some amazing a Christian but has some amazing a Christian but has some amazing insights on our relational capacity and insights on our relational capacity and insights on our relational capacity and his basic thesis is most people his basic thesis is most people his basic thesis is most people throughout human history knew about 200 throughout human history knew about 200 throughout human history knew about 200 150 to 200 people in their lives you 150 to 200 people in their lives you 150 to 200 people in their lives you know yeah we lived in City but you'd know yeah we lived in City but you'd know yeah we lived in City but you'd know 150 to 200 people or if you lived know 150 to 200 people or if you lived know 150 to 200 people or if you lived in a medieval village in Europe or in a medieval village in Europe or in a medieval village in Europe or something like that or Asia you knew 150 something like that or Asia you knew 150 something like that or Asia you knew 150 to 200 people and that's our relational to 200 people and that's our relational to 200 people and that's our relational capacity social media has blown that to capacity social media has blown that to capacity social media has blown that to Smither most of you have hundreds if not Smither most of you have hundreds if not Smither most of you have hundreds if not thousands of followers tens of thousands

thousands of followers tens of thousands thousands of followers tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of hundreds of thousands of hundreds of thousands of followers and now you know your ability followers and now you know your ability followers and now you know your ability to have meaningful relationships has to have meaningful relationships has to have meaningful relationships has blown up and dunbar's main point is that blown up and dunbar's main point is that blown up and dunbar's main point is that all of us have the capacity for three to all of us have the capacity for three to all of us have the capacity for three to five close five close five close friendships now when you look at how friendships now when you look at how friendships now when you look at how most people navigate those friendships most people navigate those friendships most people navigate those friendships today that inner circle those 3 to five today that inner circle those 3 to five today that inner circle those 3 to five are empty it's like well I got all these are empty it's like well I got all these are empty it's like well I got all these followers online and I got all these followers online and I got all these followers online and I got all these people at our church and I know all people at our church and I know all people at our church and I know all these people and I manage all these these people and I manage all these these people and I manage all these volunteers yeah I got a full quiver I volunteers yeah I got a full quiver I volunteers yeah I got a full quiver I got a lot of people but if you really got a lot of people but if you really got a lot of people but if you really look at like who knows you who just I look at like who knows you who just I look at like who knows you who just I got a couple of friends helping me in got a couple of friends helping me in got a couple of friends helping me in the studio today I've known them for 20 the studio today I've known them for 20 the studio today I've known them for 20 years shout out to Justin and Sarah you years shout out to Justin and Sarah you years shout out to Justin and Sarah you know they rang the doorbell and I'm like know they rang the doorbell and I'm like know they rang the doorbell and I'm like you guys don't need to ring the doorbell you guys don't need to ring the doorbell you guys don't need to ring the doorbell just come in here hang up your own coats just come in here hang up your own coats just come in here hang up your own coats I was making coffee right that kind of I was making coffee right that kind of I was making coffee right that kind of thing you need people in that inner thing you need people in that inner thing you need people in that inner circle who know you so well there's no circle who know you so well there's no circle who know you so well there's no pretense friends who just can come in pretense friends who just can come in pretense friends who just can come in and like put their head down on your and like put their head down on your and like put their head down on your kitchen island and tell you how bad kitchen island and tell you how bad kitchen island and tell you how bad their day was you need that I've been their day was you need that I've been their day was you need that I've been working very intentionally on making working very intentionally on making working very intentionally on making sure that I have three to five of those sure that I have three to five of those sure that I have three to five of those intimate close personal in-person intimate close personal in-person intimate close personal in-person friendships you need those and so that's friendships you need those and so that's friendships you need those and so that's what I would say also reference a what I would say also reference a what I would say also reference a devotional life that has nothing to do devotional life that has nothing to do devotional life that has nothing to do with work I already talked about that so with work I already talked about that so with work I already talked about that so those are some habits okay next question those are some habits okay next question those are some habits okay next question this one's from Noah so Noah we're going this one's from Noah so Noah we're going this one's from Noah so Noah we're going to drill down I like this question so I to drill down I like this question so I to drill down I like this question so I want to uh talk about this in in a want to uh talk about this in in a want to uh talk about this in in a greater detail but Noah's question is greater detail but Noah's question is greater detail but Noah's question is how do you recommend young leaders go how do you recommend young leaders go how do you recommend young leaders go about finding deep friends in leadership

about finding deep friends in leadership about finding deep friends in leadership yeah so like building on dunbar's number yeah so like building on dunbar's number yeah so like building on dunbar's number which we just talked about the reality which we just talked about the reality which we just talked about the reality is you can follow Scott Galloway or is you can follow Scott Galloway or is you can follow Scott Galloway or other people who talk about this most of other people who talk about this most of other people who talk about this most of us have nobody in that Circle us have nobody in that Circle us have nobody in that Circle of 3 to five so I want to talk of 3 to five so I want to talk of 3 to five so I want to talk specifically to church leaders and I'm specifically to church leaders and I'm specifically to church leaders and I'm just going to be transparent it's hard just going to be transparent it's hard just going to be transparent it's hard it's really difficult okay so when I was it's really difficult okay so when I was it's really difficult okay so when I was lead pastor of Conexus by the time I lead pastor of Conexus by the time I lead pastor of Conexus by the time I moved to a founding Pastor role we had moved to a founding Pastor role we had moved to a founding Pastor role we had 3500 4,000 people who called our church 3500 4,000 people who called our church 3500 4,000 people who called our church home so on the one hand you go like oh home so on the one hand you go like oh home so on the one hand you go like oh my goodness all these people and you my goodness all these people and you my goodness all these people and you know you get out in the lobby and know you get out in the lobby and know you get out in the lobby and everybody wants to talk to you and everybody wants to talk to you and everybody wants to talk to you and everybody's your friend and everything everybody's your friend and everything everybody's your friend and everything so here we are years later and you know so here we are years later and you know so here we are years later and you know what I'm down to we're really friendly what I'm down to we're really friendly what I'm down to we're really friendly with people we still attend our church with people we still attend our church with people we still attend our church we were there on Sunday and we have we were there on Sunday and we have we were there on Sunday and we have great conversations with people but I'm great conversations with people but I'm great conversations with people but I'm down to like three to five people who down to like three to five people who down to like three to five people who are part of our church who are still are part of our church who are still are part of our church who are still part of our Lives now that doesn't mean part of our Lives now that doesn't mean part of our Lives now that doesn't mean I'm not social with other people when I'm not social with other people when I'm not social with other people when I'm at our church but I want to give you I'm at our church but I want to give you I'm at our church but I want to give you a case study okay one of the people I I a case study okay one of the people I I a case study okay one of the people I I considered my best friends was on the considered my best friends was on the considered my best friends was on the Elder board when I was a lead Pastor for Elder board when I was a lead Pastor for Elder board when I was a lead Pastor for years and then the question is okay well years and then the question is okay well years and then the question is okay well is he still your friend now that you're is he still your friend now that you're is he still your friend now that you're not the lead pastor and the answer was not the lead pastor and the answer was not the lead pastor and the answer was yes uh so we're going to see him tonight yes uh so we're going to see him tonight yes uh so we're going to see him tonight actually and we hang out in the summer actually and we hang out in the summer actually and we hang out in the summer all kinds of time together but I didn't all kinds of time together but I didn't all kinds of time together but I didn't know that until I wasn't the lead Pastor know that until I wasn't the lead Pastor know that until I wasn't the lead Pastor anymore so you're kind of in that place anymore so you're kind of in that place anymore so you're kind of in that place like are they really my friends are they

like are they really my friends are they like are they really my friends are they really not your friends so here's a really not your friends so here's a really not your friends so here's a filter Noah you can use most of you filter Noah you can use most of you filter Noah you can use most of you listening to this have probably moved listening to this have probably moved listening to this have probably moved already and think about okay if you used already and think about okay if you used already and think about okay if you used to be at a another church you used to be to be at a another church you used to be to be at a another church you used to be in another city or you went to college in another city or you went to college in another city or you went to college in a town who are the people that you in a town who are the people that you in a town who are the people that you still connect with because maybe you still connect with because maybe you still connect with because maybe you knew a hundred people in your last City knew a hundred people in your last City knew a hundred people in your last City whatever that is but you're probably whatever that is but you're probably whatever that is but you're probably really only close with two or three of really only close with two or three of really only close with two or three of them now maybe one from college so the them now maybe one from college so the them now maybe one from college so the question is what was it about that question is what was it about that question is what was it about that person that made the relationship endure person that made the relationship endure person that made the relationship endure the setting because that's a question the setting because that's a question the setting because that's a question that you're going to have to answer now that you're going to have to answer now that you're going to have to answer now where you are and then you want to look where you are and then you want to look where you are and then you want to look at those qualities and characteristics at those qualities and characteristics at those qualities and characteristics and I want to give you a little cheat and I want to give you a little cheat and I want to give you a little cheat code okay this is from Arthur Brooks code okay this is from Arthur Brooks code okay this is from Arthur Brooks who's been a guest on this podcast it's who's been a guest on this podcast it's who's been a guest on this podcast it's the difference between deal friends and the difference between deal friends and the difference between deal friends and real friends and I love that that was real friends and I love that that was real friends and I love that that was one of my favorite insights from his one of my favorite insights from his one of my favorite insights from his book from strength to strength and he book from strength to strength and he book from strength to strength and he said most of the people you know when said most of the people you know when said most of the people you know when you're in leadership are deal friends you're in leadership are deal friends you're in leadership are deal friends that is you know I have a lot of friends that is you know I have a lot of friends that is you know I have a lot of friends because they want to be guests on this because they want to be guests on this because they want to be guests on this podcast I have a lot of friends who want podcast I have a lot of friends who want podcast I have a lot of friends who want me to speak who want me to do this me to speak who want me to do this me to speak who want me to do this because I I do something that you know because I I do something that you know because I I do something that you know theoretically has some value in the theoretically has some value in the theoretically has some value in the church space most of those are deal church space most of those are deal church space most of those are deal friends in other words if I was to stop friends in other words if I was to stop friends in other words if I was to stop doing this today my phone will not blow doing this today my phone will not blow doing this today my phone will not blow up from those people right so I love the up from those people right so I love the up from those people right so I love the way that Arthur Brooks talks about the way that Arthur Brooks talks about the way that Arthur Brooks talks about the difference he says your real friends are difference he says your real friends are difference he says your real friends are useless but not worthless and what he useless but not worthless and what he useless but not worthless and what he means is they can't really help you like

means is they can't really help you like means is they can't really help you like my friend who was on the Elder board uh my friend who was on the Elder board uh my friend who was on the Elder board uh we help each other with our boats in the we help each other with our boats in the we help each other with our boats in the spring and in the fall uh we kind of spring and in the fall uh we kind of spring and in the fall uh we kind of hang out but like he can't help me grow hang out but like he can't help me grow hang out but like he can't help me grow this podcast he's a medical doctor I this podcast he's a medical doctor I this podcast he's a medical doctor I can't help him with his practice uh I can't help him with his practice uh I can't help him with his practice uh I can't do it so I'm kind of functionally can't do it so I'm kind of functionally can't do it so I'm kind of functionally useless to him but we love hanging out useless to him but we love hanging out useless to him but we love hanging out and that means they're not worthless and that means they're not worthless and that means they're not worthless they're incredibly valuable so the way they're incredibly valuable so the way they're incredibly valuable so the way to do this now is to find someone to do this now is to find someone to do this now is to find someone outside your circle and what I would outside your circle and what I would outside your circle and what I would suggest is you don't work for them and suggest is you don't work for them and suggest is you don't work for them and they don't work for you so you don't they don't work for you so you don't they don't work for you so you don't work for them they don't work for you work for them they don't work for you work for them they don't work for you that means probably someone outside your that means probably someone outside your that means probably someone outside your church you can have friends who go to church you can have friends who go to church you can have friends who go to your church or who are on your staff but your church or who are on your staff but your church or who are on your staff but what happens after they're not around what happens after they're not around what happens after they're not around anymore or you leave that church so what anymore or you leave that church so what anymore or you leave that church so what you want to do is you want to find you want to do is you want to find you want to do is you want to find someone outside your circle and uh you someone outside your circle and uh you someone outside your circle and uh you know i' I've seen this I've seen leaders know i' I've seen this I've seen leaders know i' I've seen this I've seen leaders who have fallen and what they realize is who have fallen and what they realize is who have fallen and what they realize is everybody that was close to them either everybody that was close to them either everybody that was close to them either worked for them or they worked for them worked for them or they worked for them worked for them or they worked for them they don't actually have any true they don't actually have any true they don't actually have any true friends so you don't want to be that friends so you don't want to be that friends so you don't want to be that person you want to find someone who um person you want to find someone who um person you want to find someone who um really can't help you in your career but really can't help you in your career but really can't help you in your career but is is just a great person to hang around is is just a great person to hang around is is just a great person to hang around hang around them and uh maybe you go to hang around them and uh maybe you go to hang around them and uh maybe you go to the gym maybe you find someone at a club the gym maybe you find someone at a club the gym maybe you find someone at a club you know you join a club or you you have you know you join a club or you you have you know you join a club or you you have a sport you start playing pickle ball a sport you start playing pickle ball a sport you start playing pickle ball and there's somebody who's like totally and there's somebody who's like totally and there's somebody who's like totally outside of your field and you want to outside of your field and you want to outside of your field and you want to find that person they become a friend find that person they become a friend find that person they become a friend and Away you go so those are some ideas and Away you go so those are some ideas and Away you go so those are some ideas it's really hard you're probably only it's really hard you're probably only it's really hard you're probably only going to know who the friend is after

going to know who the friend is after going to know who the friend is after you leave your current position but you leave your current position but you leave your current position but here's the good news you only need three here's the good news you only need three here's the good news you only need three to five right you don't need 30 just to five right you don't need 30 just to five right you don't need 30 just need three to five and that that circle need three to five and that that circle need three to five and that that circle is probably going to change like is probably going to change like is probably going to change like somebody who was in that Circle five somebody who was in that Circle five somebody who was in that Circle five years ago may have moved to an Outer years ago may have moved to an Outer years ago may have moved to an Outer Circle now but then you need someone to Circle now but then you need someone to Circle now but then you need someone to fill that and again most people don't fill that and again most people don't fill that and again most people don't have it so you want to keep working on have it so you want to keep working on have it so you want to keep working on that and then the final question today that and then the final question today that and then the final question today Joey save the hardest for the last Joy's Joey save the hardest for the last Joy's Joey save the hardest for the last Joy's was uh was short how do you fire people was uh was short how do you fire people was uh was short how do you fire people okay Joey thanks for the easy question okay Joey thanks for the easy question okay Joey thanks for the easy question okay uh footnote yes I went to law okay uh footnote yes I went to law okay uh footnote yes I went to law school no this is not legal advice school no this is not legal advice school no this is not legal advice please consult with an actual employment please consult with an actual employment please consult with an actual employment attorney do not take this as legal attorney do not take this as legal attorney do not take this as legal advice but I'm going to share some advice but I'm going to share some advice but I'm going to share some principles along the way okay there are principles along the way okay there are principles along the way okay there are two ways to fire people and most people two ways to fire people and most people two ways to fire people and most people don't understand this you can fire don't understand this you can fire don't understand this you can fire someone for cause or you can fire someone for cause or you can fire someone for cause or you can fire someone without cause what does cause someone without cause what does cause someone without cause what does cause mean cause means you stole something you mean cause means you stole something you mean cause means you stole something you committed a crime you're fired or if you committed a crime you're fired or if you committed a crime you're fired or if you have a moral turpitude clause or a have a moral turpitude clause or a have a moral turpitude clause or a standard of behaviors you know you had standard of behaviors you know you had standard of behaviors you know you had an affair uh that breached our an affair uh that breached our an affair uh that breached our employment contract we're going to let employment contract we're going to let employment contract we're going to let you go so in other words they did you go so in other words they did you go so in other words they did something that caused them to be something that caused them to be something that caused them to be terminated um now you have to be really terminated um now you have to be really terminated um now you have to be really careful that's why you have to see a careful that's why you have to see a careful that's why you have to see a lawyer etc etc uh but that's one way to lawyer etc etc uh but that's one way to lawyer etc etc uh but that's one way to do it now for gross incompetence let's do it now for gross incompetence let's do it now for gross incompetence let's say somebody's just bad at their job

say somebody's just bad at their job say somebody's just bad at their job that's that's really hard to prove okay that's that's really hard to prove okay that's that's really hard to prove okay you can say well that's for cause you can say well that's for cause you can say well that's for cause they're just not very good at it but they're just not very good at it but they're just not very good at it but you've got to be able to prove that you've got to be able to prove that you've got to be able to prove that they're not good at it and to do that they're not good at it and to do that they're not good at it and to do that you need steps and you need well they you need steps and you need well they you need steps and you need well they were warned etc etc but that's still were warned etc etc but that's still were warned etc etc but that's still really difficult to determine which really difficult to determine which really difficult to determine which takes us to the second category which is takes us to the second category which is takes us to the second category which is not for cause vast majority of people not for cause vast majority of people not for cause vast majority of people who are terminated are terminated under who are terminated are terminated under who are terminated are terminated under the not for cause category so what's the the not for cause category so what's the the not for cause category so what's the difference well if you're terminated for difference well if you're terminated for difference well if you're terminated for cause let's say I stole money from the cause let's say I stole money from the cause let's say I stole money from the church okay you do not need to pay a church okay you do not need to pay a church okay you do not need to pay a severance package there's no severance I severance package there's no severance I severance package there's no severance I I did something that was cause related I did something that was cause related I did something that was cause related or you know I punched a coworker okay or you know I punched a coworker okay or you know I punched a coworker okay well that's assault and uh you can't well that's assault and uh you can't well that's assault and uh you can't work here anymore you do not owe them work here anymore you do not owe them work here anymore you do not owe them Severance you have to make sure that the Severance you have to make sure that the Severance you have to make sure that the cause is clear now the vast majority of cause is clear now the vast majority of cause is clear now the vast majority of people get fired under the not for cause people get fired under the not for cause people get fired under the not for cause category and that means yeah they category and that means yeah they category and that means yeah they weren't doing particularly well but weren't doing particularly well but weren't doing particularly well but we're going to offer them some severance we're going to offer them some severance we're going to offer them some severance all right and that is the biggest all right and that is the biggest all right and that is the biggest distinction that you have so the reality distinction that you have so the reality distinction that you have so the reality according to the law you can let people according to the law you can let people according to the law you can let people go at any time for any reason and people go at any time for any reason and people go at any time for any reason and people do you just have to pay them now if you do you just have to pay them now if you do you just have to pay them now if you want to be a good employer here's a want to be a good employer here's a want to be a good employer here's a general rule that's sort of a again general rule that's sort of a again general rule that's sort of a again check with your lawyer but that's an check with your lawyer but that's an check with your lawyer but that's an overview of for cause and not for cause overview of for cause and not for cause overview of for cause and not for cause now you want to take it up and Ratchet

now you want to take it up and Ratchet now you want to take it up and Ratchet it up as a Christian what about the case it up as a Christian what about the case it up as a Christian what about the case where you have a four cause termination where you have a four cause termination where you have a four cause termination well first of all well first of all well first of all that's going to be really rare it might that's going to be really rare it might that's going to be really rare it might happen once or twice in your career happen once or twice in your career happen once or twice in your career right you do leadership for 30 40 years right you do leadership for 30 40 years right you do leadership for 30 40 years might happen once or twice that there's might happen once or twice that there's might happen once or twice that there's a for cause always involve the lawyers a for cause always involve the lawyers a for cause always involve the lawyers talk to your insurer make sure you've talk to your insurer make sure you've talk to your insurer make sure you've got actual cause Etc and then you can got actual cause Etc and then you can got actual cause Etc and then you can proceed but not for cause which is the proceed but not for cause which is the proceed but not for cause which is the vast majority of terminations let's say vast majority of terminations let's say vast majority of terminations let's say you're young leader you inherited you're young leader you inherited you're young leader you inherited someone else's staff and like it's just someone else's staff and like it's just someone else's staff and like it's just not going well they're just not not going well they're just not not going well they're just not performing they're not they're not on performing they're not they're not on performing they're not they're not on board with a mission and you can say board with a mission and you can say board with a mission and you can say well that's cause well not really not well that's cause well not really not well that's cause well not really not legally it's not um but what you want to legally it's not um but what you want to legally it's not um but what you want to do you could do a couple of routes one do you could do a couple of routes one do you could do a couple of routes one is to do a performance Improvement plan is to do a performance Improvement plan is to do a performance Improvement plan hey Carrie you need to shape up or we're hey Carrie you need to shape up or we're hey Carrie you need to shape up or we're going to have to take some action here going to have to take some action here going to have to take some action here and here are the three areas I need to and here are the three areas I need to and here are the three areas I need to see Improvement in we're going to have see Improvement in we're going to have see Improvement in we're going to have clear objectives we're going to meet clear objectives we're going to meet clear objectives we're going to meet again in 30 days and we're going to see again in 30 days and we're going to see again in 30 days and we're going to see if you hit those objectives now you can if you hit those objectives now you can if you hit those objectives now you can do that and then theoretically you could do that and then theoretically you could do that and then theoretically you could still fire for cause if they don't hit still fire for cause if they don't hit still fire for cause if they don't hit it but it's very difficult to prove Pro it but it's very difficult to prove Pro it but it's very difficult to prove Pro often there's litigation you probably often there's litigation you probably often there's litigation you probably don't want to go there so again you'll don't want to go there so again you'll don't want to go there so again you'll want to check with counsil on that to want to check with counsil on that to want to check with counsil on that to make sure it works well probably the make sure it works well probably the make sure it works well probably the better way to go is just to be really better way to go is just to be really better way to go is just to be really generous with someone and say you know generous with someone and say you know generous with someone and say you know what I really thank you for what you're what I really thank you for what you're what I really thank you for what you're doing you want to want to walk with them doing you want to want to walk with them doing you want to want to walk with them and let them know it's not working out and let them know it's not working out and let them know it's not working out give them a chance to make it better give them a chance to make it better give them a chance to make it better most of the time it doesn't really work most of the time it doesn't really work most of the time it doesn't really work out particularly well and then give them

out particularly well and then give them out particularly well and then give them a generous severance package and by a generous severance package and by a generous severance package and by generous I mean don't look up the generous I mean don't look up the generous I mean don't look up the legislation in your state or Province legislation in your state or Province legislation in your state or Province and say well we'll give you the bare and say well we'll give you the bare and say well we'll give you the bare minimum I mean consult with a lawyer minimum I mean consult with a lawyer minimum I mean consult with a lawyer consult with an employment lawyer give consult with an employment lawyer give consult with an employment lawyer give them a very generous severance package them a very generous severance package them a very generous severance package be kind let them leave with their be kind let them leave with their be kind let them leave with their dignity maybe you want to help them find dignity maybe you want to help them find dignity maybe you want to help them find a new position but the bottom line is I a new position but the bottom line is I a new position but the bottom line is I think you know if you're fired for cause think you know if you're fired for cause think you know if you're fired for cause could be a surprise to you cuz you got could be a surprise to you cuz you got could be a surprise to you cuz you got caught but if you're fired not for cause caught but if you're fired not for cause caught but if you're fired not for cause it should never be a surprise you it should never be a surprise you it should never be a surprise you probably want to coach them a little bit probably want to coach them a little bit probably want to coach them a little bit you want to let them know hey this isn't you want to let them know hey this isn't you want to let them know hey this isn't going particularly well uh we really going particularly well uh we really going particularly well uh we really want to see an improvement in this area want to see an improvement in this area want to see an improvement in this area and then if they can't improve which and then if they can't improve which and then if they can't improve which often for a variety of reasons they often for a variety of reasons they often for a variety of reasons they can't then you give them a very generous can't then you give them a very generous can't then you give them a very generous severance package you help them and if severance package you help them and if severance package you help them and if you do this well I know of a church that you do this well I know of a church that you do this well I know of a church that different staff have left over the years different staff have left over the years different staff have left over the years you know attrition happens over time and you know attrition happens over time and you know attrition happens over time and some have been let go and the people who some have been let go and the people who some have been let go and the people who have been let go still attend the church have been let go still attend the church have been let go still attend the church it's like that's crazy that's when when it's like that's crazy that's when when it's like that's crazy that's when when you do termination really well that's you do termination really well that's you do termination really well that's when you've been generous that's when when you've been generous that's when when you've been generous that's when you let people leave with their dignity you let people leave with their dignity you let people leave with their dignity that's when you allow people uh to hold that's when you allow people uh to hold that's when you allow people uh to hold their head high while they go out and their head high while they go out and their head high while they go out and you thank them you acknowledge the good you thank them you acknowledge the good you thank them you acknowledge the good again all this should be done with again all this should be done with again all this should be done with attorneys etc etc but I really hope this attorneys etc etc but I really hope this attorneys etc etc but I really hope this helps well I didn't get to nearly all helps well I didn't get to nearly all helps well I didn't get to nearly all the questions that came in uh I got to the questions that came in uh I got to the questions that came in uh I got to tell you there is a lot more to cover so

tell you there is a lot more to cover so tell you there is a lot more to cover so next episode we're going to come back next episode we're going to come back next episode we're going to come back and we are going to have more questions and we are going to have more questions and we are going to have more questions so I've kind of talked about the so I've kind of talked about the so I've kind of talked about the personal stuff this time next time we're personal stuff this time next time we're personal stuff this time next time we're going to talk about organizational going to talk about organizational going to talk about organizational leadership we've got some questions leadership we've got some questions leadership we've got some questions already queued up on uh is there a already queued up on uh is there a already queued up on uh is there a natural ceiling that churches can't grow natural ceiling that churches can't grow natural ceiling that churches can't grow beyond their current size like you just beyond their current size like you just beyond their current size like you just get stuck at a lid how do you handle get stuck at a lid how do you handle get stuck at a lid how do you handle that how do you help a small Church in a that how do you help a small Church in a that how do you help a small Church in a small community reach its potential uh small community reach its potential uh small community reach its potential uh what about change Dynamics so we got a what about change Dynamics so we got a what about change Dynamics so we got a lot of questions coming up if you're lot of questions coming up if you're lot of questions coming up if you're watching this on YouTube you can drop a watching this on YouTube you can drop a watching this on YouTube you can drop a question you maybe want me to deal with question you maybe want me to deal with question you maybe want me to deal with in the comments and we'll see if we do in the comments and we'll see if we do in the comments and we'll see if we do that on a future episode of picky brain that on a future episode of picky brain that on a future episode of picky brain and uh maybe if you're listening shoot and uh maybe if you're listening shoot and uh maybe if you're listening shoot me an email at kry car nof.red questions on the regular cuz I'm nof.red questions on the regular cuz I'm in that chat pretty much daily but in that chat pretty much daily but in that chat pretty much daily but you'll get unlimited access to all of you'll get unlimited access to all of you'll get unlimited access to all of our resources uh proven strategies plus our resources uh proven strategies plus our resources uh proven strategies plus a Vibrant Community of over 1,700 a Vibrant Community of over 1,700 a Vibrant Community of over 1,700 leaders you can learn from and grow with leaders you can learn from and grow with leaders you can learn from and grow with so you can check it out at the art of so you can check it out at the art of so you can check it out at the art of leadership academy.com or click the link leadership academy.com or click the link leadership academy.com or click the link wherever you're tuning in from in the wherever you're tuning in from in the wherever you're tuning in from in the meantime I really hope our time together meantime I really hope our time together meantime I really hope our time together today has helped you identify and break today has helped you identify and break today has helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing and we'll a growth barrier you're facing and we'll a growth barrier you're facing and we'll catch you next time on the podcast