Stuck Under a Bad Boss? How to Thrive, Lead Up, and Transform Your Job

I often think of a grape vine as there I often think of a grape vine as there are emotions that got pushed underground are emotions that got pushed underground are emotions that got pushed underground because they weren't welcome above because they weren't welcome above because they weren't welcome above ground. And so when we think about like ground. And so when we think about like ground. And so when we think about like the whispers or the DMs of like, oh the whispers or the DMs of like, oh the whispers or the DMs of like, oh this, can you even believe this? The this, can you even believe this? The this, can you even believe this? The antidote to that sort of whispering antidote to that sort of whispering antidote to that sort of whispering jokes about the boss is just bring that jokes about the boss is just bring that jokes about the boss is just bring that conversation above ground. So my very conversation above ground. So my very conversation above ground. So my very best trick is something that I call best trick is something that I call best trick is something that I call welcome to the Carrie New Hoff welcome to the Carrie New Hoff welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. You ever been stuck leadership podcast. You ever been stuck leadership podcast. You ever been stuck under a bad boss? Like maybe you got one under a bad boss? Like maybe you got one under a bad boss? Like maybe you got one right now. Just kind of love your work right now. Just kind of love your work right now. Just kind of love your work but hate your job. Well, what do you do? but hate your job. Well, what do you do? but hate your job. Well, what do you do? Bri Gra is an expert in this? And she Bri Gra is an expert in this? And she Bri Gra is an expert in this? And she gives advice that I've never heard of, gives advice that I've never heard of, gives advice that I've never heard of, quite frankly. What to do to take agency quite frankly. What to do to take agency quite frankly. What to do to take agency and make your job a lot better? And then and make your job a lot better? And then and make your job a lot better? And then what do you do if you're that boss? What what do you do if you're that boss? What what do you do if you're that boss? What if you're watching this and you're like, if you're watching this and you're like, if you're watching this and you're like, "Uh-oh, that's me." She's got a strategy "Uh-oh, that's me." She's got a strategy "Uh-oh, that's me." She's got a strategy that actually is so easy to do. You can that actually is so easy to do. You can that actually is so easy to do. You can do it. You can fix this in the next do it. You can fix this in the next do it. You can fix this in the next hour. Hey, I'm really excited you joined hour. Hey, I'm really excited you joined hour. Hey, I'm really excited you joined us for this episode. You can like, us for this episode. You can like, us for this episode. You can like, subscribe, leave a comment to join the subscribe, leave a comment to join the subscribe, leave a comment to join the conversation. You can also click the conversation. You can also click the conversation. You can also click the link and join us in the art of link and join us in the art of link and join us in the art of leadership academy where you can get leadership academy where you can get leadership academy where you can get show notes and also a more curated and show notes and also a more curated and show notes and also a more curated and cultivated conversation than you get on cultivated conversation than you get on cultivated conversation than you get on open social media with a whole bunch of open social media with a whole bunch of open social media with a whole bunch of other church leaders, thousands upon other church leaders, thousands upon other church leaders, thousands upon thousands of other church leaders diving thousands of other church leaders diving thousands of other church leaders diving in and having a conversation solving the in and having a conversation solving the in and having a conversation solving the real problems you're facing. So check real problems you're facing. So check real problems you're facing. So check that out at the art of that out at the art of that out at the art of leadershipacademy.com.

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1accord.ai/carry. 1accord.ai/carry. That's o neacord.ai/carry. That's o neacord.ai/carry. That's o neacord.ai/carry. [Music] [Music] [Music] Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Blay. You weren't called to be busy. You Blay. You weren't called to be busy. You Blay. You weren't called to be busy. You were called to build something that were called to build something that were called to build something that lasts. If your days are packed and your lasts. If your days are packed and your lasts. If your days are packed and your mission feels more like a moving target mission feels more like a moving target mission feels more like a moving target than a guiding star, maybe it's time to than a guiding star, maybe it's time to than a guiding star, maybe it's time to head over and do something differently. head over and do something differently. head over and do something differently. Maybe it's time to make space for what Maybe it's time to make space for what Maybe it's time to make space for what matters most. Ble knows your highest matters most. Ble knows your highest matters most. Ble knows your highest impact starts when you stop trying to do impact starts when you stop trying to do impact starts when you stop trying to do it all. And if you're overwhelmed, it all. And if you're overwhelmed, it all. And if you're overwhelmed, trying to keep up with the day-to-day trying to keep up with the day-to-day trying to keep up with the day-to-day finances of your organization. Blay's finances of your organization. Blay's finances of your organization. Blay's expert bookkeepers, accounting clerks, expert bookkeepers, accounting clerks, expert bookkeepers, accounting clerks, and fractional CFOs can help. So, take and fractional CFOs can help. So, take and fractional CFOs can help. So, take the first step toward financial peace of the first step toward financial peace of the first step toward financial peace of mind by downloading Blay's free mind by downloading Blay's free mind by downloading Blay's free mission-based budgeting guide today. mission-based budgeting guide today. mission-based budgeting guide today. This resource includes templates, This resource includes templates, This resource includes templates, step-by-step guides, and a training step-by-step guides, and a training step-by-step guides, and a training video to make aligning your budget and video to make aligning your budget and video to make aligning your budget and your mission simple. How do you get it? your mission simple. How do you get it? your mission simple. How do you get it? Well, text the word carry to 55123 for Well, text the word carry to 55123 for Well, text the word carry to 55123 for your free download. That's C A R E Y to your free download. That's C A R E Y to your free download. That's C A R E Y to 55123. 55123. 55123. Lead with purpose. Let Blay handle the Lead with purpose. Let Blay handle the Lead with purpose. Let Blay handle the rest. Well, Bri, it's great to have you rest. Well, Bri, it's great to have you rest. Well, Bri, it's great to have you on the podcast. Welcome.

on the podcast. Welcome. on the podcast. Welcome. Thanks so much for having me, Carrie. Thanks so much for having me, Carrie. Thanks so much for having me, Carrie. Yeah. So, a lot of leaders take work so Yeah. So, a lot of leaders take work so Yeah. So, a lot of leaders take work so seriously, I'm probably guilty of this, seriously, I'm probably guilty of this, seriously, I'm probably guilty of this, that they can squeeze the joy out of it. that they can squeeze the joy out of it. that they can squeeze the joy out of it. I'm having a lot more fun than I did in I'm having a lot more fun than I did in I'm having a lot more fun than I did in my 30s. I've always, it's funny, this my 30s. I've always, it's funny, this my 30s. I've always, it's funny, this came up at a community group we're a came up at a community group we're a came up at a community group we're a part of last night and I'm like, part of last night and I'm like, part of last night and I'm like, I've just always loved my work. Like I've just always loved my work. Like I've just always loved my work. Like whether that was cleaning toilets and my whether that was cleaning toilets and my whether that was cleaning toilets and my dad and mom's company when they ran a dad and mom's company when they ran a dad and mom's company when they ran a shop for 25 years, shop for 25 years, shop for 25 years, you know, tool mold shop and I used to you know, tool mold shop and I used to you know, tool mold shop and I used to clean the toilets and drive the truck, clean the toilets and drive the truck, clean the toilets and drive the truck, Ford F-150. I was so happy doing that. Ford F-150. I was so happy doing that. Ford F-150. I was so happy doing that. Amazing. Then I worked in radio and Amazing. Then I worked in radio and Amazing. Then I worked in radio and worked in law briefly and then in worked in law briefly and then in worked in law briefly and then in ministry and now with what I do now. ministry and now with what I do now. ministry and now with what I do now. Like I've never hated work. Um but a lot Like I've never hated work. Um but a lot Like I've never hated work. Um but a lot I'm I'm in the minority. I'm I'm in the minority. I'm I'm in the minority. Like I've read I've read the Gallup Like I've read I've read the Gallup Like I've read I've read the Gallup stuff and a lot of people who work at stuff and a lot of people who work at stuff and a lot of people who work at churches or nonprofits. They love the churches or nonprofits. They love the churches or nonprofits. They love the mission. mission. mission. Not a big fan of the culture, not a big Not a big fan of the culture, not a big Not a big fan of the culture, not a big fan of the methods and joy seems to be fan of the methods and joy seems to be fan of the methods and joy seems to be squeezed out of work. So yeah, you got squeezed out of work. So yeah, you got squeezed out of work. So yeah, you got interested in this field. How did this interested in this field. How did this interested in this field. How did this become of interest to you? like making become of interest to you? like making become of interest to you? like making making work fun again. making work fun again. making work fun again. Yeah. Well, you know, similar to you, I Yeah. Well, you know, similar to you, I Yeah. Well, you know, similar to you, I have really loved my jobs, my roles. Um, have really loved my jobs, my roles. Um, have really loved my jobs, my roles. Um, I actually grew up um with a very I actually grew up um with a very I actually grew up um with a very deep-seated belief that, oh, work is a deep-seated belief that, oh, work is a deep-seated belief that, oh, work is a fun place to be. So, my mother was a fun place to be. So, my mother was a fun place to be. So, my mother was a kindergarten teacher, my father was an kindergarten teacher, my father was an kindergarten teacher, my father was an elementary school principal, elementary school principal, elementary school principal, and I remember remember my mom would and I remember remember my mom would and I remember remember my mom would come home from work and she'd say, "Oh, come home from work and she'd say, "Oh, come home from work and she'd say, "Oh, I have the best days."

I have the best days." I have the best days." And just like any kid growing up, you And just like any kid growing up, you And just like any kid growing up, you grow up in the culture of your family grow up in the culture of your family grow up in the culture of your family that and you start to think, well, okay, that and you start to think, well, okay, that and you start to think, well, okay, this is normal, right? Like your parents this is normal, right? Like your parents this is normal, right? Like your parents go to work, go to work, go to work, everybody loves their job, right? Your everybody loves their job, right? Your everybody loves their job, right? Your your home, your family is normal, your home, your family is normal, your home, your family is normal, right? Everyone Yes. Everyone feels that right? Everyone Yes. Everyone feels that right? Everyone Yes. Everyone feels that way. And so I grew up thinking work is a way. And so I grew up thinking work is a way. And so I grew up thinking work is a place to have fun, to enjoy your days, place to have fun, to enjoy your days, place to have fun, to enjoy your days, to enjoy your colleagues, to come home to enjoy your colleagues, to come home to enjoy your colleagues, to come home and tell stories about the highlights of and tell stories about the highlights of and tell stories about the highlights of your day to your family. your day to your family. your day to your family. And so actually my first career out of And so actually my first career out of And so actually my first career out of college was in education. I taught college was in education. I taught college was in education. I taught seventh grade math and then I taught seventh grade math and then I taught seventh grade math and then I taught high school math and physics. high school math and physics. high school math and physics. I often at the end of a week on a Friday I often at the end of a week on a Friday I often at the end of a week on a Friday afternoon would sort of feel like, oh, I afternoon would sort of feel like, oh, I afternoon would sort of feel like, oh, I have to wait two days till I get to see have to wait two days till I get to see have to wait two days till I get to see the kids again. the kids again. the kids again. Oh, that's a fun place to be. Oh, that's a fun place to be. Oh, that's a fun place to be. It was Yeah. Like I was I actually felt It was Yeah. Like I was I actually felt It was Yeah. Like I was I actually felt some sort of come down from all of the some sort of come down from all of the some sort of come down from all of the joy from from the week. It was really joy from from the week. It was really joy from from the week. It was really only later that I started, you know, only later that I started, you know, only later that I started, you know, through a few career pivots, then I through a few career pivots, then I through a few career pivots, then I found my way into consulting that I found my way into consulting that I found my way into consulting that I started to peer into, you know, dozens started to peer into, you know, dozens started to peer into, you know, dozens of different organizations I was of different organizations I was of different organizations I was consulting with and interviewing consulting with and interviewing consulting with and interviewing employees about their experience at employees about their experience at employees about their experience at work. And it was very clear work. And it was very clear work. And it was very clear I was not normal. Oh yeah, I was not normal. Oh yeah, I was not normal. Oh yeah, this this this you realize, oh, I'm a tiny splinter of you realize, oh, I'm a tiny splinter of you realize, oh, I'm a tiny splinter of like the operations director at some like the operations director at some like the operations director at some Fortune 500 company was not like, oh, I Fortune 500 company was not like, oh, I Fortune 500 company was not like, oh, I have to wait two more days till I get to

have to wait two more days till I get to have to wait two more days till I get to direct more operations on Monday. And so direct more operations on Monday. And so direct more operations on Monday. And so in my consulting experience then I I in my consulting experience then I I in my consulting experience then I I took what I saw and learned and took what I saw and learned and took what I saw and learned and you know experimented with in our you know experimented with in our you know experimented with in our engagements with clients to really form engagements with clients to really form engagements with clients to really form a point of view on what does it take to a point of view on what does it take to a point of view on what does it take to have a good day at work. So I think have a good day at work. So I think have a good day at work. So I think about it both sort of globally in terms about it both sort of globally in terms about it both sort of globally in terms of you know what what does our society of you know what what does our society of you know what what does our society think about work? I think about it think about work? I think about it think about work? I think about it organizationally like um what are the organizationally like um what are the organizationally like um what are the values and the culture of an values and the culture of an values and the culture of an organization and how is it setting organization and how is it setting organization and how is it setting employees up to employees up to employees up to enjoy their work to feel vibrant and enjoy their work to feel vibrant and enjoy their work to feel vibrant and alive and human. And then I think about alive and human. And then I think about alive and human. And then I think about it at the very local level of any it at the very local level of any it at the very local level of any individual human waking up. What will it individual human waking up. What will it individual human waking up. What will it take for them to have a good day most take for them to have a good day most take for them to have a good day most days? Not every day of course not every days? Not every day of course not every days? Not every day of course not every day is going to be fun. Work is day is going to be fun. Work is day is going to be fun. Work is stressful in some part because we care stressful in some part because we care stressful in some part because we care about it and because we're invested. But about it and because we're invested. But about it and because we're invested. But I really believe that if we are wishing I really believe that if we are wishing I really believe that if we are wishing away the work week, if we're saying, away the work week, if we're saying, away the work week, if we're saying, "Oh, when is this week going to be over?

"Oh, when is this week going to be over? "Oh, when is this week going to be over? When is it going to be Friday? Is it When is it going to be Friday? Is it When is it going to be Friday? Is it only Wednesday?" only Wednesday?" only Wednesday?" We're not only wishing away the work We're not only wishing away the work We're not only wishing away the work week, we're wishing away a vast portion week, we're wishing away a vast portion week, we're wishing away a vast portion of our lives. And that comes from the of our lives. And that comes from the of our lives. And that comes from the finite amount of days that we have on finite amount of days that we have on finite amount of days that we have on this beautiful planet. And that's a this beautiful planet. And that's a this beautiful planet. And that's a problem. And so that's really where a problem. And so that's really where a problem. And so that's really where a lot of my lot of my lot of my passion comes from, um, my experience passion comes from, um, my experience passion comes from, um, my experience comes from is trying to eradicate this comes from is trying to eradicate this comes from is trying to eradicate this question of when can this week be over question of when can this week be over question of when can this week be over because our days are just too precious. because our days are just too precious. because our days are just too precious. I think to walk into some real life I think to walk into some real life I think to walk into some real life scenarios early on in the conversation, scenarios early on in the conversation, scenarios early on in the conversation, there's a lot of pastors listening to there's a lot of pastors listening to there's a lot of pastors listening to this who would say and church leaders, this who would say and church leaders, this who would say and church leaders, not just senior pastors, but church not just senior pastors, but church not just senior pastors, but church leaders who would say, "I'm in it for leaders who would say, "I'm in it for leaders who would say, "I'm in it for the mission. Like, I love my job. I love the mission. Like, I love my job. I love the mission. Like, I love my job. I love my calling." And we've had other guests my calling." And we've had other guests my calling." And we've had other guests on Ariana Malloy talked about toxic on Ariana Malloy talked about toxic on Ariana Malloy talked about toxic calling. You love it so much that it can calling. You love it so much that it can calling. You love it so much that it can kill you, right? You can't quit. There's kill you, right? You can't quit. There's kill you, right? You can't quit. There's no off switch. But one of the gaps I've no off switch. But one of the gaps I've no off switch. But one of the gaps I've noticed because I've been to a lot of noticed because I've been to a lot of noticed because I've been to a lot of different churches, Bri, is sometimes different churches, Bri, is sometimes different churches, Bri, is sometimes the pastor and we're we're trained in the pastor and we're we're trained in the pastor and we're we're trained in seminary to be solo operators. There's seminary to be solo operators. There's seminary to be solo operators. There's not a single course on team leadership.

not a single course on team leadership. not a single course on team leadership. And then you get in there and all of a And then you get in there and all of a And then you get in there and all of a sudden you have hundreds or thousands or sudden you have hundreds or thousands or sudden you have hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of people and you're a tens of thousands of people and you're a tens of thousands of people and you're a CEO. And I know there's a lot of people CEO. And I know there's a lot of people CEO. And I know there's a lot of people who don't like that language, but who don't like that language, but who don't like that language, but functionally functionally functionally that's what you are. that's what you are. that's what you are. And you got to lead people. And so what And you got to lead people. And so what And you got to lead people. And so what I find is uh you know, when you get to a I find is uh you know, when you get to a I find is uh you know, when you get to a really big church, a mega church, really big church, a mega church, really big church, a mega church, usually they've they've navigated this. usually they've they've navigated this. usually they've they've navigated this. But for most people, the pastor can be But for most people, the pastor can be But for most people, the pastor can be very much in a zone where they love very much in a zone where they love very much in a zone where they love their job, they love their work, maybe their job, they love their work, maybe their job, they love their work, maybe even they're a little bit workaholic, even they're a little bit workaholic, even they're a little bit workaholic, right? right? right? and the rest of the staff, they're on and the rest of the staff, they're on and the rest of the staff, they're on board with the mission, but the culture board with the mission, but the culture board with the mission, but the culture is toxic. It's like this pastor texts me is toxic. It's like this pastor texts me is toxic. It's like this pastor texts me all night, all weekend. Um, notes are all night, all weekend. Um, notes are all night, all weekend. Um, notes are never ready on time for Sunday morning, never ready on time for Sunday morning, never ready on time for Sunday morning, they come Saturday. It killed my day they come Saturday. It killed my day they come Saturday. It killed my day with my kids. Um, with my kids. Um, with my kids. Um, he just has unreasonable expectations. he just has unreasonable expectations. he just has unreasonable expectations. He's not organized. If you first of all He's not organized. If you first of all He's not organized. If you first of all have you seen those contacts in the have you seen those contacts in the have you seen those contacts in the business world with soloreneurs or business world with soloreneurs or business world with soloreneurs or entrepreneurs that wouldn't be a entrepreneurs that wouldn't be a entrepreneurs that wouldn't be a soloreneur entrepreneurs with small soloreneur entrepreneurs with small soloreneur entrepreneurs with small companies and then what advice do you companies and then what advice do you companies and then what advice do you have both for the team members who are have both for the team members who are have both for the team members who are in that kind of toxic soup and also for in that kind of toxic soup and also for in that kind of toxic soup and also for the leader who might be seeing him or the leader who might be seeing him or the leader who might be seeing him or herself in the mirror when they hear herself in the mirror when they hear herself in the mirror when they hear that situation described.

that situation described. that situation described. Sure. Yes. I have definitely seen it. Sure. Yes. I have definitely seen it. Sure. Yes. I have definitely seen it. Not a unique problem. No, not a problem. Not a unique problem. No, not a problem. Not a unique problem. No, not a problem. And so yeah to come at it from two And so yeah to come at it from two And so yeah to come at it from two different angles. different angles. different angles. Sure. Sure. Sure. There's so the leader who is you know There's so the leader who is you know There's so the leader who is you know frankly like I I in all of my consulting frankly like I I in all of my consulting frankly like I I in all of my consulting I have yet to meet a leader who wasn't I have yet to meet a leader who wasn't I have yet to meet a leader who wasn't honestly trying to do their best like honestly trying to do their best like honestly trying to do their best like really trying with what they had or all really trying with what they had or all really trying with what they had or all of the forces around them. Maybe I'm of the forces around them. Maybe I'm of the forces around them. Maybe I'm just lucky in having worked with the just lucky in having worked with the just lucky in having worked with the clients I've worked with. clients I've worked with. clients I've worked with. No, I think that's true. There are very No, I think that's true. There are very No, I think that's true. There are very few like truly mean few like truly mean few like truly mean toxic pathological pastors out there, toxic pathological pastors out there, toxic pathological pastors out there, right? Yeah. right? Yeah. right? Yeah. Very, very few. Most people are just Very, very few. Most people are just Very, very few. Most people are just maybe a little bit not self-aware. maybe a little bit not self-aware. maybe a little bit not self-aware. Yes. And so Yes. And so Yes. And so when I think about the leader who's when I think about the leader who's when I think about the leader who's maybe overwhelmed, a little bit maybe overwhelmed, a little bit maybe overwhelmed, a little bit disorganized, disorganized, disorganized, um when I think of it from someone on um when I think of it from someone on um when I think of it from someone on their team, um who's sort of like amidst their team, um who's sort of like amidst their team, um who's sort of like amidst all of this, all of this, all of this, there's a few things that you can do. So there's a few things that you can do. So there's a few things that you can do. So one is I am always a proponent of having one is I am always a proponent of having one is I am always a proponent of having like open and ominous conversations like open and ominous conversations like open and ominous conversations about leadership culture and about leadership culture and about leadership culture and organizational culture and organizational culture and organizational culture and um you know like in the corporate world um you know like in the corporate world um you know like in the corporate world a lot of these things happen as at like a lot of these things happen as at like a lot of these things happen as at like you do your yearly offsite and culture you do your yearly offsite and culture you do your yearly offsite and culture is on the agenda because maybe you have is on the agenda because maybe you have is on the agenda because maybe you have your chief people officer and they're your chief people officer and they're your chief people officer and they're like um but even I could imagine in a like um but even I could imagine in a like um but even I could imagine in a church culture like this is very it's church culture like this is very it's church culture like this is very it's important to talk about what is the felt important to talk about what is the felt important to talk about what is the felt experience of working here. So, one is

experience of working here. So, one is experience of working here. So, one is just like a conversation. Um, two, a just like a conversation. Um, two, a just like a conversation. Um, two, a very simple thing to do is, you know, very simple thing to do is, you know, very simple thing to do is, you know, throw out an an employee survey that you throw out an an employee survey that you throw out an an employee survey that you can find from lots of different vendors can find from lots of different vendors can find from lots of different vendors or you could create yourself, right? or you could create yourself, right? or you could create yourself, right? Just to get a little data in Just to get a little data in Just to get a little data in conversation. Um, if that's still hard conversation. Um, if that's still hard conversation. Um, if that's still hard and like we're just not having the and like we're just not having the and like we're just not having the conversation and you as an individual conversation and you as an individual conversation and you as an individual just need to make it through the day just need to make it through the day just need to make it through the day then there's lots to do because I never then there's lots to do because I never then there's lots to do because I never want to counsel people like out of a want to counsel people like out of a want to counsel people like out of a job, right? Like if they love the job, right? Like if they love the job, right? Like if they love the mission and also like unemployment not mission and also like unemployment not mission and also like unemployment not fun, you know, so that's like not the fun, you know, so that's like not the fun, you know, so that's like not the best alternative. best alternative. best alternative. But even amidst all of the stress, But even amidst all of the stress, But even amidst all of the stress, there's still so much that you can do at there's still so much that you can do at there's still so much that you can do at the micro level to have a good day. So, the micro level to have a good day. So, the micro level to have a good day. So, even things like I've got even things like I've got even things like I've got dozens of these in my head, but dozens of these in my head, but dozens of these in my head, but no, let's go there because this is the no, let's go there because this is the no, let's go there because this is the problem. I'll give you my standard problem. I'll give you my standard problem. I'll give you my standard answer. answer. answer. Sure. Sure. Sure. Because the the conversation with the Because the the conversation with the Because the the conversation with the boss is awkward. And if I stand up there boss is awkward. And if I stand up there boss is awkward. And if I stand up there as a boss and I have 15 staff and I'm as a boss and I have 15 staff and I'm as a boss and I have 15 staff and I'm like, "How's the culture here?" like, "How's the culture here?" like, "How's the culture here?" Most people are going to, "Oh, it's Most people are going to, "Oh, it's Most people are going to, "Oh, it's great, boss. It's wonderful. It's great, boss. It's wonderful. It's great, boss. It's wonderful. It's fantastic." Cuz, you know, they don't fantastic." Cuz, you know, they don't fantastic." Cuz, you know, they don't want to get fired and they they have want to get fired and they they have want to get fired and they they have trouble speaking truth to their leader.

trouble speaking truth to their leader. trouble speaking truth to their leader. Now Now Now you could I have teachings and I'm sure you could I have teachings and I'm sure you could I have teachings and I'm sure you have teachings on how to change that you have teachings on how to change that you have teachings on how to change that culture so people can give you real culture so people can give you real culture so people can give you real feedback. But then I hear inevitably feedback. But then I hear inevitably feedback. But then I hear inevitably from the people who are not the senior from the people who are not the senior from the people who are not the senior leader while we tried that and he's leader while we tried that and he's leader while we tried that and he's still not listening. So you end up in still not listening. So you end up in still not listening. So you end up in that like abyss where I'm like okay then that like abyss where I'm like okay then that like abyss where I'm like okay then you have a glass ceiling like either you have a glass ceiling like either you have a glass ceiling like either this is as good as it gets. this is as good as it gets. this is as good as it gets. You got to make it as nice as it is or You got to make it as nice as it is or You got to make it as nice as it is or you got to leave and find a better you got to leave and find a better you got to leave and find a better context. But you've got context. But you've got context. But you've got all kinds of hacks that are going to all kinds of hacks that are going to all kinds of hacks that are going to help. So, pick up your pens and papers help. So, pick up your pens and papers help. So, pick up your pens and papers or your phones and start taking notes or or your phones and start taking notes or or your phones and start taking notes or maybe access the show notes. So, let's maybe access the show notes. So, let's maybe access the show notes. So, let's go there. What can you do to make it a go there. What can you do to make it a go there. What can you do to make it a better place if you're in that situation better place if you're in that situation better place if you're in that situation and it's not changing? and it's not changing? and it's not changing? Yes. So, then you pull a move from the Yes. So, then you pull a move from the Yes. So, then you pull a move from the office. If you watched the show, the office. If you watched the show, the office. If you watched the show, the sitcom that ran for forever, right? sitcom that ran for forever, right? sitcom that ran for forever, right? Who hasn't? Yeah. Who hasn't? Yeah. Who hasn't? Yeah. So, yeah. So, Steve Carell is like this So, yeah. So, Steve Carell is like this So, yeah. So, Steve Carell is like this crazy boss, right? But what the crazy boss, right? But what the crazy boss, right? But what the employees did, and I think the the show employees did, and I think the the show employees did, and I think the the show is brilliant because there actually is is brilliant because there actually is is brilliant because there actually is no mission. So if you have a mission, no mission. So if you have a mission, no mission. So if you have a mission, you're already a step ahead. Like their you're already a step ahead. Like their you're already a step ahead. Like their mission was paper sales. Like it was the mission was paper sales. Like it was the mission was paper sales. Like it was the dullest possible business. But still, dullest possible business. But still, dullest possible business. But still, good choice on the producers and good choice on the producers and good choice on the producers and creatives paper sales.

creatives paper sales. creatives paper sales. But still, what they did, the employees But still, what they did, the employees But still, what they did, the employees there, they made their own fun. there, they made their own fun. there, they made their own fun. Sometimes even a little bit at the Sometimes even a little bit at the Sometimes even a little bit at the expense of the boss, which is like no expense of the boss, which is like no expense of the boss, which is like no boss's ideal team bonding plan. boss's ideal team bonding plan. boss's ideal team bonding plan. But in a day-to-day basis, you can still But in a day-to-day basis, you can still But in a day-to-day basis, you can still hide the stapler in a bowl of Jell-O. hide the stapler in a bowl of Jell-O. hide the stapler in a bowl of Jell-O. So, I'll be more specific about like So, I'll be more specific about like So, I'll be more specific about like things that you can do. Um, things that you can do. Um, things that you can do. Um, micro acts of connection go a long way. micro acts of connection go a long way. micro acts of connection go a long way. Just feeling like we're in it together, Just feeling like we're in it together, Just feeling like we're in it together, especially in a tough environment. especially in a tough environment. especially in a tough environment. Feeling like you've got Feeling like you've got Feeling like you've got some camaraderie around you, like people some camaraderie around you, like people some camaraderie around you, like people who get it. So, one of my favorite hacks who get it. So, one of my favorite hacks who get it. So, one of my favorite hacks is just find out everyone you work is just find out everyone you work is just find out everyone you work with's middle name. It's like a super with's middle name. It's like a super with's middle name. It's like a super simple question. It's not too intrusive. simple question. It's not too intrusive. simple question. It's not too intrusive. It's also like oddly It's also like oddly It's also like oddly that's kind of fun actually. that's kind of fun actually. that's kind of fun actually. It's fun. You like whenever I do this, I It's fun. You like whenever I do this, I It's fun. You like whenever I do this, I hear like fun family stories or maybe hear like fun family stories or maybe hear like fun family stories or maybe I'll make someone blush or like you just I'll make someone blush or like you just I'll make someone blush or like you just get to know a little bit more about them get to know a little bit more about them get to know a little bit more about them at a human level. So, that's one hack.

at a human level. So, that's one hack. at a human level. So, that's one hack. Another similar one is just keep a Another similar one is just keep a Another similar one is just keep a running list of all of the pets names of running list of all of the pets names of running list of all of the pets names of everyone you work with. everyone you work with. everyone you work with. Another thing I haven't done. Another thing I haven't done. Another thing I haven't done. Yeah. So, they're like very simple micro Yeah. So, they're like very simple micro Yeah. So, they're like very simple micro behaviors that are not intrusive. Take behaviors that are not intrusive. Take behaviors that are not intrusive. Take 10 seconds to ask the question and what 10 seconds to ask the question and what 10 seconds to ask the question and what it does is it starts to humanize the it does is it starts to humanize the it does is it starts to humanize the workplace. So all of a sudden you are workplace. So all of a sudden you are workplace. So all of a sudden you are showing up at work even in a crazy or showing up at work even in a crazy or showing up at work even in a crazy or even in a toxic environment feeling like even in a toxic environment feeling like even in a toxic environment feeling like there's humans around me that I know there's humans around me that I know there's humans around me that I know that I like they know me they like me that I like they know me they like me that I like they know me they like me and now we we can at least have like a and now we we can at least have like a and now we we can at least have like a little wink about it like oh here we go little wink about it like oh here we go little wink about it like oh here we go again Saturday and the notes aren't again Saturday and the notes aren't again Saturday and the notes aren't ready ready ready again no leader's ideal team bonding again no leader's ideal team bonding again no leader's ideal team bonding plan but it's and at least you have some plan but it's and at least you have some plan but it's and at least you have some camaraderie. Um, other easy hacks, one camaraderie. Um, other easy hacks, one camaraderie. Um, other easy hacks, one of my favorites is when if you are in an of my favorites is when if you are in an of my favorites is when if you are in an office altogether, office altogether, office altogether, have somebody play music from the year have somebody play music from the year have somebody play music from the year that they turned 18.

that they turned 18. that they turned 18. Oh, cool. Oh, cool. Oh, cool. It sounds silly or ridiculous. One, it It sounds silly or ridiculous. One, it It sounds silly or ridiculous. One, it sort of defangs agism because then sort of defangs agism because then sort of defangs agism because then you're like, "Oh, cool. That was that you're like, "Oh, cool. That was that you're like, "Oh, cool. That was that came out when I was in middle school or came out when I was in middle school or came out when I was in middle school or that came out when I was like that came out when I was like that came out when I was like I wasn't born to get to my stage, I wasn't born to get to my stage, I wasn't born to get to my stage, right? right? right? I wasn't born yet." Mhm. I wasn't born yet." Mhm. I wasn't born yet." Mhm. And also it's like And also it's like And also it's like I was at this dance exercise class the I was at this dance exercise class the I was at this dance exercise class the other week and they played some Pearl other week and they played some Pearl other week and they played some Pearl Jam and I was like in I was like this is Jam and I was like in I was like this is Jam and I was like in I was like this is my happy place. Like there's nothing my happy place. Like there's nothing my happy place. Like there's nothing like your teenage music that to like like your teenage music that to like like your teenage music that to like make your day better. make your day better. make your day better. Yeah. That was college for me. Pearl Yeah. That was college for me. Pearl Yeah. That was college for me. Pearl Jam. That was great. Jam. That was great. Jam. That was great. So we're all Yeah. So we're all Yeah. So we're all Yeah. Yeah. I'm a few years ahead. Definitely. Yeah. I'm a few years ahead. Definitely. Yeah. I'm a few years ahead. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the sort of like micro actions of It's the sort of like micro actions of It's the sort of like micro actions of what do you have autonomy over? I know what do you have autonomy over? I know what do you have autonomy over? I know that I can make a connection with a that I can make a connection with a that I can make a connection with a colleague. I know that I can do colleague. I know that I can do colleague. I know that I can do something about my environment that's something about my environment that's something about my environment that's going to lift my spirits. And if that going to lift my spirits. And if that going to lift my spirits. And if that gets you through dayto-day, gets you through dayto-day, gets you through dayto-day, well then maybe that's a great place to well then maybe that's a great place to well then maybe that's a great place to start, you know, and then, you know, start, you know, and then, you know, start, you know, and then, you know, from there you do the employee from there you do the employee from there you do the employee satisfaction survey. satisfaction survey. satisfaction survey. You you said something really You you said something really You you said something really interesting, something you have autonomy interesting, something you have autonomy interesting, something you have autonomy over, and I think that's what we forget.

over, and I think that's what we forget. over, and I think that's what we forget. It's the focus on what you can control, It's the focus on what you can control, It's the focus on what you can control, not on what you can't control. I think not on what you can't control. I think not on what you can't control. I think another word for that and feel free to, another word for that and feel free to, another word for that and feel free to, you know, substitute or whatever is you know, substitute or whatever is you know, substitute or whatever is agency. Yeah. agency. Yeah. agency. Yeah. And in the age of AI, a lot of people And in the age of AI, a lot of people And in the age of AI, a lot of people are thinking about agency. How do I, you are thinking about agency. How do I, you are thinking about agency. How do I, you know, and algorithms, how do I make sure know, and algorithms, how do I make sure know, and algorithms, how do I make sure I'm watching what I want to watch, not I'm watching what I want to watch, not I'm watching what I want to watch, not what the algorithm told me to watch, what the algorithm told me to watch, what the algorithm told me to watch, right? That kind of thing. right? That kind of thing. right? That kind of thing. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, when it comes to agency, I think So, when it comes to agency, I think So, when it comes to agency, I think we're in a cultural moment where a lot we're in a cultural moment where a lot we're in a cultural moment where a lot of people have unwittingly surrendered a of people have unwittingly surrendered a of people have unwittingly surrendered a lot of their agency. They feel like lot of their agency. They feel like lot of their agency. They feel like victims. They feel like I haven't got victims. They feel like I haven't got victims. They feel like I haven't got control over this. So when it comes to control over this. So when it comes to control over this. So when it comes to agency at work, let's say you're not the agency at work, let's say you're not the agency at work, let's say you're not the executive level, so you're not even in executive level, so you're not even in executive level, so you're not even in the sweet sea suite. the sweet sea suite. the sweet sea suite. How do you have agency over How do you have agency over How do you have agency over um your work when you're three levels um your work when you're three levels um your work when you're three levels down? down? down? Yeah. So what I would advise, so I think Yeah. So what I would advise, so I think Yeah. So what I would advise, so I think of it sort of, you know, how cats will of it sort of, you know, how cats will of it sort of, you know, how cats will find the one corner of sunlight in your find the one corner of sunlight in your find the one corner of sunlight in your house, right? Like they just find their house, right? Like they just find their house, right? Like they just find their way. And sometimes my cat is even like way. And sometimes my cat is even like way. And sometimes my cat is even like squished into it, you know? She's like squished into it, you know? She's like squished into it, you know? She's like that dedicated to her vitamin D. That's that dedicated to her vitamin D. That's that dedicated to her vitamin D. That's how that's how I think about how leaders how that's how I think about how leaders how that's how I think about how leaders even a few rungs down can kind of find a even a few rungs down can kind of find a even a few rungs down can kind of find a corner of organizational sunlight for corner of organizational sunlight for corner of organizational sunlight for themselves and then also anyone they themselves and then also anyone they themselves and then also anyone they manage if there are a couple people manage if there are a couple people manage if there are a couple people below them or not. But in those environ below them or not. But in those environ below them or not. But in those environ so for example when I lead project teams so for example when I lead project teams so for example when I lead project teams in consulting in consulting in consulting there's other project teams around us in there's other project teams around us in there's other project teams around us in the organization there's like the larger

the organization there's like the larger the organization there's like the larger organization organization organization and and sometimes that can all be really and and sometimes that can all be really and and sometimes that can all be really good but my goal is still to create the good but my goal is still to create the good but my goal is still to create the corner of organizational sunlight for my corner of organizational sunlight for my corner of organizational sunlight for my team. So what that looks like is the team. So what that looks like is the team. So what that looks like is the microax of connection I mentioned. Um microax of connection I mentioned. Um microax of connection I mentioned. Um sometimes mischief goes a long way which sometimes mischief goes a long way which sometimes mischief goes a long way which I don't know mischief in church but you I don't know mischief in church but you I don't know mischief in church but you know like know like know like we had a really when I was lead pastor we had a really when I was lead pastor we had a really when I was lead pastor we had a lot of fun at work um a lot of we had a lot of fun at work um a lot of we had a lot of fun at work um a lot of fun a lot of jokes a lot of inside jokes fun a lot of jokes a lot of inside jokes fun a lot of jokes a lot of inside jokes a lot of self-deprecating humor a lot of self-deprecating humor a lot of self-deprecating humor lots of activities and same with my team lots of activities and same with my team lots of activities and same with my team now like we're we're virtual company but now like we're we're virtual company but now like we're we're virtual company but when we get together we got everybody when we get together we got everybody when we get together we got everybody flying in next month like we're going to flying in next month like we're going to flying in next month like we're going to have a blasting we're we're going to have a blasting we're we're going to have a blasting we're we're going to have a blast. Yeah. have a blast. Yeah. have a blast. Yeah. Right. Like what are the things that Right. Like what are the things that Right. Like what are the things that feel like maybe a little not right to do feel like maybe a little not right to do feel like maybe a little not right to do but are so fun? Like but are so fun? Like but are so fun? Like a little not right to do. a little not right to do. a little not right to do. Yeah. Well, like for example, I got some Yeah. Well, like for example, I got some Yeah. Well, like for example, I got some side eye when I rearranged the furniture side eye when I rearranged the furniture side eye when I rearranged the furniture in our office and facilities was like, in our office and facilities was like, in our office and facilities was like, "You're not supposed to rearrange the "You're not supposed to rearrange the "You're not supposed to rearrange the furniture in the office." But I was furniture in the office." But I was furniture in the office." But I was like, "Oh, it's just we're just hanging like, "Oh, it's just we're just hanging like, "Oh, it's just we're just hanging out a little bit better." We I actually out a little bit better." We I actually out a little bit better." We I actually like brought in a picnic blanket and put like brought in a picnic blanket and put like brought in a picnic blanket and put it on the floor so that like we made it on the floor so that like we made it on the floor so that like we made like a little bit of a picnic park scene like a little bit of a picnic park scene like a little bit of a picnic park scene for ourselves at work. You know, it's it for ourselves at work. You know, it's it for ourselves at work. You know, it's it did not destroy any mission or bottom did not destroy any mission or bottom did not destroy any mission or bottom line. It was just for fun and almost the line. It was just for fun and almost the line. It was just for fun and almost the fact that we got a little bit in trouble fact that we got a little bit in trouble fact that we got a little bit in trouble for it was kind of part of the fun, you for it was kind of part of the fun, you for it was kind of part of the fun, you know, and so, you know, I think know, and so, you know, I think know, and so, you know, I think I was always in trouble at school, I was always in trouble at school, I was always in trouble at school, including university, for just crossing including university, for just crossing including university, for just crossing that line of being a little bit too much that line of being a little bit too much that line of being a little bit too much fun,

fun, fun, inappropriate fun. Yeah. Yeah, it's like inappropriate fun. Yeah. Yeah, it's like inappropriate fun. Yeah. Yeah, it's like good. It's good fun, you know, good good. It's good fun, you know, good good. It's good fun, you know, good naturatured um fun. So, I would consider naturatured um fun. So, I would consider naturatured um fun. So, I would consider all of these things these are sort of all of these things these are sort of all of these things these are sort of like broadly when I think about fun at like broadly when I think about fun at like broadly when I think about fun at work. There's either you can make the work. There's either you can make the work. There's either you can make the work itself more fun, I think of that as work itself more fun, I think of that as work itself more fun, I think of that as like can we make work like steak, like like can we make work like steak, like like can we make work like steak, like juicy and delicious, and you want more juicy and delicious, and you want more juicy and delicious, and you want more of it. Or sometimes work is just of it. Or sometimes work is just of it. Or sometimes work is just broccoli and you're like, I can't do broccoli and you're like, I can't do broccoli and you're like, I can't do anything about it. That's just what's anything about it. That's just what's anything about it. That's just what's been served to me by the higherups. In been served to me by the higherups. In been served to me by the higherups. In which case, you put some cheese on that, which case, you put some cheese on that, which case, you put some cheese on that, you know, and that and that cheese is you know, and that and that cheese is you know, and that and that cheese is you are like rearranging the furniture, you are like rearranging the furniture, you are like rearranging the furniture, you know, like having a laugh with each you know, like having a laugh with each you know, like having a laugh with each other, all of those kinds of things. And other, all of those kinds of things. And other, all of those kinds of things. And that's okay, too. Sometimes that's just that's okay, too. Sometimes that's just that's okay, too. Sometimes that's just the situation you're in. the situation you're in. the situation you're in. Yeah. The thing that that was so nice Yeah. The thing that that was so nice Yeah. The thing that that was so nice about The Office, and I think most about The Office, and I think most about The Office, and I think most people have watched The Office or people have watched The Office or people have watched The Office or rewatched it numerous times, um, is rewatched it numerous times, um, is rewatched it numerous times, um, is often that camaraderie two levels down often that camaraderie two levels down often that camaraderie two levels down turns into cynicism. Complaints about turns into cynicism. Complaints about turns into cynicism. Complaints about the boss, eye rolling about the boss, the boss, eye rolling about the boss, the boss, eye rolling about the boss, and everyone's got some narrative, and everyone's got some narrative, and everyone's got some narrative, inside jokes about the boss that inside jokes about the boss that inside jokes about the boss that everybody but the boss and maybe the everybody but the boss and maybe the everybody but the boss and maybe the next in charge knows. And that that's next in charge knows. And that that's next in charge knows. And that that's not particularly healthy. It's not not particularly healthy. It's not not particularly healthy. It's not healthy in the corporate world, not healthy in the corporate world, not healthy in the corporate world, not healthy. And the office kind of avoided healthy. And the office kind of avoided healthy. And the office kind of avoided that because Michael was in on most of that because Michael was in on most of that because Michael was in on most of the jokes, right?

the jokes, right? the jokes, right? And was most of the jokes And was most of the jokes And was most of the jokes and was most of the jokes to be honest. and was most of the jokes to be honest. and was most of the jokes to be honest. So, So, So, any tips on how to avoid that toxic any tips on how to avoid that toxic any tips on how to avoid that toxic because I've I've been in churches where because I've I've been in churches where because I've I've been in churches where clearly that's the case. Everybody but clearly that's the case. Everybody but clearly that's the case. Everybody but the boss knows that the senior everybody the boss knows that the senior everybody the boss knows that the senior everybody but the senior pastor knows that the but the senior pastor knows that the but the senior pastor knows that the senior pastor is the problem and senior pastor is the problem and senior pastor is the problem and everyone's got like inside jokes or eye everyone's got like inside jokes or eye everyone's got like inside jokes or eye rolls or come over here and let me tell rolls or come over here and let me tell rolls or come over here and let me tell you something, you something, you something, you know, kind of stuff. How do you you know, kind of stuff. How do you you know, kind of stuff. How do you avoid that kind of context in a avoid that kind of context in a avoid that kind of context in a workplace? workplace? workplace? Totally. Yeah. So, speaking now to the Totally. Yeah. So, speaking now to the Totally. Yeah. So, speaking now to the the pastor, the CEO, the boss, like what the pastor, the CEO, the boss, like what the pastor, the CEO, the boss, like what are some things that you can do? So, one are some things that you can do? So, one are some things that you can do? So, one is one is a mindset and then one is a is one is a mindset and then one is a is one is a mindset and then one is a practice or a tool I'll share. Um, so practice or a tool I'll share. Um, so practice or a tool I'll share. Um, so the mindset first the mindset first the mindset first is you have to show people that you is you have to show people that you is you have to show people that you value value value their days. sort their days. sort their days. sort simple in a way. It's more extreme I simple in a way. It's more extreme I simple in a way. It's more extreme I would say in the corporate environment would say in the corporate environment would say in the corporate environment where people are deemed human resources where people are deemed human resources where people are deemed human resources and we think of resources as things to and we think of resources as things to and we think of resources as things to be extracted to their master.

be extracted to their master. be extracted to their master. You could be a machine or you could be You could be a machine or you could be You could be a machine or you could be in an AI but right now you're a person in an AI but right now you're a person in an AI but right now you're a person so we'll keep so we'll keep so we'll keep right. Yeah. It's like businesses are right. Yeah. It's like businesses are right. Yeah. It's like businesses are designed to extract resource. It's like designed to extract resource. It's like designed to extract resource. It's like that's almost their remit is to like get that's almost their remit is to like get that's almost their remit is to like get as much as you can from your resources as much as you can from your resources as much as you can from your resources deliver as much on the other end. And deliver as much on the other end. And deliver as much on the other end. And so, you know, when I'm advising leaders, so, you know, when I'm advising leaders, so, you know, when I'm advising leaders, I think the same is true in churches, is I think the same is true in churches, is I think the same is true in churches, is you have to resist the urge to extract you have to resist the urge to extract you have to resist the urge to extract more, which is sure, you could maybe get more, which is sure, you could maybe get more, which is sure, you could maybe get someone to do night work or weekend work someone to do night work or weekend work someone to do night work or weekend work or catch up on like, but that's or catch up on like, but that's or catch up on like, but that's extracting above and beyond what was the extracting above and beyond what was the extracting above and beyond what was the deal in the first place. And so that deal in the first place. And so that deal in the first place. And so that mindset if I can think of mindset if I can think of mindset if I can think of the humans not as the humans not as the humans not as things to extract but but the most things to extract but but the most things to extract but but the most valuable thing I have and my job is to valuable thing I have and my job is to valuable thing I have and my job is to support them to do their best work. Then support them to do their best work. Then support them to do their best work. Then I'm doing things like instead of asking I'm doing things like instead of asking I'm doing things like instead of asking them to stay late and finish some them to stay late and finish some them to stay late and finish some report, I'm thinking, okay, can we move report, I'm thinking, okay, can we move report, I'm thinking, okay, can we move that report deadline to the next day?

that report deadline to the next day? that report deadline to the next day? And instead, can I say like, hey, you've And instead, can I say like, hey, you've And instead, can I say like, hey, you've been working a lot this week. Do you been working a lot this week. Do you been working a lot this week. Do you want to like knock off early and get to want to like knock off early and get to want to like knock off early and get to your kids softball game? your kids softball game? your kids softball game? Right? Like that's that's not taking a Right? Like that's that's not taking a Right? Like that's that's not taking a deposit or taking a withdrawal. like deposit or taking a withdrawal. like deposit or taking a withdrawal. like that's making a deposit into that that's making a deposit into that that's making a deposit into that person, you know, and it's a sort of person, you know, and it's a sort of person, you know, and it's a sort of transactional language. But transactional language. But transactional language. But we have to be thinking about like what we have to be thinking about like what we have to be thinking about like what are we are we are we if we think of our employees in other if we think of our employees in other if we think of our employees in other words more like the players on a words more like the players on a words more like the players on a football team. You're not trying to football team. You're not trying to football team. You're not trying to extract from them. In fact, what you're extract from them. In fact, what you're extract from them. In fact, what you're trying to do is set them up with the trying to do is set them up with the trying to do is set them up with the best trainers, the best nutritionists. best trainers, the best nutritionists. best trainers, the best nutritionists. you're making sure that they like you you're making sure that they like you you're making sure that they like you are putting everything into them so that are putting everything into them so that are putting everything into them so that they can perform at their best. So they can perform at their best. So they can perform at their best. So that's sort of the different that's sort of the different that's sort of the different so that's a boss's mindset that we need so that's a boss's mindset that we need so that's a boss's mindset that we need to get into that we're not extracting to get into that we're not extracting to get into that we're not extracting value. You're not going to squeeze every value. You're not going to squeeze every value. You're not going to squeeze every juice out of the orange but a juice out juice out of the orange but a juice out juice out of the orange but a juice out of the orange. of the orange. of the orange. It's what we want as my friend Jeff It's what we want as my friend Jeff It's what we want as my friend Jeff Henderson says who's been on this Henderson says who's been on this Henderson says who's been on this podcast numerous times. It's what we podcast numerous times. It's what we podcast numerous times. It's what we want for them not what we want from want for them not what we want from want for them not what we want from them.

them. them. Yes. And then they take care of the Yes. And then they take care of the Yes. And then they take care of the rest. rest. rest. I offer this mindset because when people I offer this mindset because when people I offer this mindset because when people can feel that like I'm cared about can feel that like I'm cared about can feel that like I'm cared about because I'm a human who has value and my because I'm a human who has value and my because I'm a human who has value and my days have value and then I'm not I'm not days have value and then I'm not I'm not days have value and then I'm not I'm not side eyeing the boss and I'm not side eyeing the boss and I'm not side eyeing the boss and I'm not whispering about the boss, right? I've whispering about the boss, right? I've whispering about the boss, right? I've got the boss's back because they've got got the boss's back because they've got got the boss's back because they've got mine, right? mine, right? mine, right? That's better than a no gossip and no That's better than a no gossip and no That's better than a no gossip and no making fun of the boss policy, which I making fun of the boss policy, which I making fun of the boss policy, which I think a lot of bosses have thought think a lot of bosses have thought think a lot of bosses have thought about, right? which is so fast going to about, right? which is so fast going to about, right? which is so fast going to be a meme that gets shared around like be a meme that gets shared around like be a meme that gets shared around like don't even try. don't even try. don't even try. No longer allowed to make fun of boss. No longer allowed to make fun of boss. No longer allowed to make fun of boss. Slack channel. Yeah, exactly. Private Slack channel. Yeah, exactly. Private Slack channel. Yeah, exactly. Private Slack channel. Don't include the boss. Slack channel. Don't include the boss. Slack channel. Don't include the boss. No, you're right. But you if people know No, you're right. But you if people know No, you're right. But you if people know that you have their back and I would say that you have their back and I would say that you have their back and I would say I was um you know I led my first few I was um you know I led my first few I was um you know I led my first few years and again seminary doesn't prepare years and again seminary doesn't prepare years and again seminary doesn't prepare you for this. Law school didn't prepare you for this. Law school didn't prepare you for this. Law school didn't prepare you for this. I didn't know how to lead you for this. I didn't know how to lead you for this. I didn't know how to lead people and I had not fully an extraction people and I had not fully an extraction people and I had not fully an extraction model but that was like how can I model but that was like how can I model but that was like how can I squeeze the most out of people? And what squeeze the most out of people? And what squeeze the most out of people? And what I've realized, you know, fortunately I've realized, you know, fortunately I've realized, you know, fortunately years ago, is a much better approach is years ago, is a much better approach is years ago, is a much better approach is the better my boundaries are and the the better my boundaries are and the the better my boundaries are and the better I respect their boundaries, the better I respect their boundaries, the better I respect their boundaries, the more ironically I get from them. It's a more ironically I get from them. It's a more ironically I get from them. It's a byproduct. But people are going to give byproduct. But people are going to give byproduct. But people are going to give you their best like when they're on the you their best like when they're on the you their best like when they're on the clock and they're not going to cheat the clock and they're not going to cheat the clock and they're not going to cheat the system. And if you have those fun system. And if you have those fun system. And if you have those fun moments and the great culture, you're moments and the great culture, you're moments and the great culture, you're going to get a team of A players if you going to get a team of A players if you going to get a team of A players if you hire well that really produces, loves hire well that really produces, loves hire well that really produces, loves their job, and has a life. Like, you their job, and has a life. Like, you their job, and has a life. Like, you know, right now, while we're recording know, right now, while we're recording know, right now, while we're recording this, I've got my digital media manager this, I've got my digital media manager this, I've got my digital media manager at her son's high school graduation.

at her son's high school graduation. at her son's high school graduation. She took half a day off. It's like, I She took half a day off. It's like, I She took half a day off. It's like, I want her to take the day off. want her to take the day off. want her to take the day off. I want her, you know, my assistant's I want her, you know, my assistant's I want her, you know, my assistant's going off for a week next week for a going off for a week next week for a going off for a week next week for a family retreat or something like that family retreat or something like that family retreat or something like that vacation. Like, awesome. That's great. vacation. Like, awesome. That's great. vacation. Like, awesome. That's great. Like I want that for them. And because I Like I want that for them. And because I Like I want that for them. And because I want that for them, guess what? When want that for them, guess what? When want that for them, guess what? When they show up, they show up. they show up, they show up. they show up, they show up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they don't drop balls. And they don't drop balls. And they don't drop balls. Totally. Because Totally. Because Totally. Because But that took me a long time to figure But that took me a long time to figure But that took me a long time to figure out. out. out. Yeah. And I get that too because like Yeah. And I get that too because like Yeah. And I get that too because like it's not normal. Like the normal system. it's not normal. Like the normal system. it's not normal. Like the normal system. So that isn't normal. So that isn't normal. So that isn't normal. Well, no. I mean, the default system is Well, no. I mean, the default system is Well, no. I mean, the default system is an employee extracts as much money as an employee extracts as much money as an employee extracts as much money as possible and the employer extracts as possible and the employer extracts as possible and the employer extracts as much time, energy, skills as possible. much time, energy, skills as possible. much time, energy, skills as possible. Like that's the normal system. opposed Like that's the normal system. opposed Like that's the normal system. opposed to each other, to each other, to each other, right? As opposed to I've got you and right? As opposed to I've got you and right? As opposed to I've got you and I've got you. Conversely, like that. I've got you. Conversely, like that. I've got you. Conversely, like that. That's the positive feedback loop. So, That's the positive feedback loop. So, That's the positive feedback loop. So, so that's one thing in a practical sense so that's one thing in a practical sense so that's one thing in a practical sense in order to avoid that grape vine. I in order to avoid that grape vine. I in order to avoid that grape vine. I often think of a grape vine as there are often think of a grape vine as there are often think of a grape vine as there are emotions that got pushed underground emotions that got pushed underground emotions that got pushed underground because they weren't welcome above because they weren't welcome above because they weren't welcome above ground. And so when we think about like ground. And so when we think about like ground. And so when we think about like the whispers or the DMs of like, oh the whispers or the DMs of like, oh the whispers or the DMs of like, oh this, can you even believe this? The this, can you even believe this? The this, can you even believe this? The antidote to that sort of whispering antidote to that sort of whispering antidote to that sort of whispering jokes about the boss is just bring that jokes about the boss is just bring that jokes about the boss is just bring that conversation above ground. So my very conversation above ground. So my very conversation above ground. So my very best trick is something that I call a best trick is something that I call a best trick is something that I call a check-in. So you could do this at a check-in. So you could do this at a check-in. So you could do this at a leadership meeting or just like an all leadership meeting or just like an all leadership meeting or just like an all staff meeting, maybe in small groups, staff meeting, maybe in small groups, staff meeting, maybe in small groups, but you just ask everybody, "How are you but you just ask everybody, "How are you but you just ask everybody, "How are you feeling?" You could say today or you

feeling?" You could say today or you feeling?" You could say today or you could say over the past week, but on a could say over the past week, but on a could say over the past week, but on a daily basis, how are you feeling today? daily basis, how are you feeling today? daily basis, how are you feeling today? On a scale of 1 to five, hold it up on On a scale of 1 to five, hold it up on On a scale of 1 to five, hold it up on your hands. 3 2 1 and everyone puts up, your hands. 3 2 1 and everyone puts up, your hands. 3 2 1 and everyone puts up, I'm a four, I'm a two, I'm a one on I'm a four, I'm a two, I'm a one on I'm a four, I'm a two, I'm a one on their on their hands. And then you take their on their hands. And then you take their on their hands. And then you take 30 seconds and run around the room and 30 seconds and run around the room and 30 seconds and run around the room and say, why? So, you could do this in a, say, why? So, you could do this in a, say, why? So, you could do this in a, you know, virtual meeting as well. And you know, virtual meeting as well. And you know, virtual meeting as well. And people say like, honestly, like, I'm people say like, honestly, like, I'm people say like, honestly, like, I'm pretty stressed out. We have this event pretty stressed out. We have this event pretty stressed out. We have this event next week. I don't know how it's going next week. I don't know how it's going next week. I don't know how it's going to go, but also it's going to be my to go, but also it's going to be my to go, but also it's going to be my birthday this weekend, so I'm excited birthday this weekend, so I'm excited birthday this weekend, so I'm excited about that. So, I'm a four. If you do about that. So, I'm a four. If you do about that. So, I'm a four. If you do this on a regular basis, it's sort of this on a regular basis, it's sort of this on a regular basis, it's sort of like it's sort of like flushing the like it's sort of like flushing the like it's sort of like flushing the pipes of you know how people are pipes of you know how people are pipes of you know how people are feeling. So that so that stress about feeling. So that so that stress about feeling. So that so that stress about the event next week that's not going the event next week that's not going the event next week that's not going underground where people are like can underground where people are like can underground where people are like can you believe the boss is having us do you believe the boss is having us do you believe the boss is having us do this event and we don't have the this event and we don't have the this event and we don't have the resources and like they are you know is resources and like they are you know is resources and like they are you know is this even the right use of time or but this even the right use of time or but this even the right use of time or but if they can say that out loud I'm if they can say that out loud I'm if they can say that out loud I'm stressed about the event. I feel like stressed about the event. I feel like stressed about the event. I feel like maybe we don't have everything we need maybe we don't have everything we need maybe we don't have everything we need now. The right people are hearing at now. The right people are hearing at now. The right people are hearing at that and people people want to feel that and people people want to feel that and people people want to feel heard, right? Like they they value heard, right? Like they they value heard, right? Like they they value having their experience seen.

having their experience seen. having their experience seen. And so then once you as the boss are in And so then once you as the boss are in And so then once you as the boss are in the conversation, there's no more grape the conversation, there's no more grape the conversation, there's no more grape vine. Now you're part of the solution. vine. Now you're part of the solution. vine. Now you're part of the solution. That's a great idea. We do a check-in on That's a great idea. We do a check-in on That's a great idea. We do a check-in on our team meetings to see how people are our team meetings to see how people are our team meetings to see how people are doing and I'm interested in their whole doing and I'm interested in their whole doing and I'm interested in their whole life. How was the weekend? What did you life. How was the weekend? What did you life. How was the weekend? What did you do? What's going on? I do that in the do? What's going on? I do that in the do? What's going on? I do that in the one-on- ones. sort of the approach of one-on- ones. sort of the approach of one-on- ones. sort of the approach of ask people how they're doing before you ask people how they're doing before you ask people how they're doing before you ask them what they're doing. ask them what they're doing. ask them what they're doing. So good and catchy. Yeah. So good and catchy. Yeah. So good and catchy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's one of those things Yeah. Yeah. And it's one of those things Yeah. Yeah. And it's one of those things too. It takes a while for them. Oh, like too. It takes a while for them. Oh, like too. It takes a while for them. Oh, like you actually care. you actually care. you actually care. I'm not going to phone this in, but you I'm not going to phone this in, but you I'm not going to phone this in, but you can get it. So, what advice that's can get it. So, what advice that's can get it. So, what advice that's really helpful from anything else for really helpful from anything else for really helpful from anything else for people who are one or two, three levels people who are one or two, three levels people who are one or two, three levels down in the organization for agency or down in the organization for agency or down in the organization for agency or what they can do so that they're like what they can do so that they're like what they can do so that they're like the cat finding the sunshine. they they the cat finding the sunshine. they they the cat finding the sunshine. they they find the joy in the journey and reclaim find the joy in the journey and reclaim find the joy in the journey and reclaim some agency at work. some agency at work. some agency at work. Yeah. You know, I would say Yeah. You know, I would say Yeah. You know, I would say people are different in terms of what people are different in terms of what people are different in terms of what brings them joy at work. Some people brings them joy at work. Some people brings them joy at work. Some people really like learning. Some people really really like learning. Some people really really like learning. Some people really like making. Some people actually don't like making. Some people actually don't like making. Some people actually don't like learning. They just want to be like learning. They just want to be like learning. They just want to be really really good at the one thing that really really good at the one thing that really really good at the one thing that they do and do it lots of times. I say they do and do it lots of times. I say they do and do it lots of times. I say great, do that thing, you know?

great, do that thing, you know? great, do that thing, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some people are are just like Some people are are just like Some people are are just like in it for the camaraderie. I think in it for the camaraderie. I think in it for the camaraderie. I think that's fine, too. Some people are in it that's fine, too. Some people are in it that's fine, too. Some people are in it for the impact. I would imagine a lot of for the impact. I would imagine a lot of for the impact. I would imagine a lot of people are in it to see the impact. So people are in it to see the impact. So people are in it to see the impact. So at that local level, if you can figure at that local level, if you can figure at that local level, if you can figure out what it is that lights you up, even out what it is that lights you up, even out what it is that lights you up, even a simple thought experiment, like over a simple thought experiment, like over a simple thought experiment, like over the course of a day or a week, when did the course of a day or a week, when did the course of a day or a week, when did I feel most alive? Like when did I feel I feel most alive? Like when did I feel I feel most alive? Like when did I feel most lit up? most lit up? most lit up? And then how can I replicate that? So, And then how can I replicate that? So, And then how can I replicate that? So, if it was um talking to a member of the if it was um talking to a member of the if it was um talking to a member of the church and they said something really church and they said something really church and they said something really nice about that event that you stressed nice about that event that you stressed nice about that event that you stressed over, well, maybe I don't know, can you over, well, maybe I don't know, can you over, well, maybe I don't know, can you spend five more minutes, you know, after spend five more minutes, you know, after spend five more minutes, you know, after a service just chatting with people? a service just chatting with people? a service just chatting with people? Would that fill you up in a different Would that fill you up in a different Would that fill you up in a different kind of way? kind of way? kind of way? That's a good counsel for those of us That's a good counsel for those of us That's a good counsel for those of us who are bosses because I think we all who are bosses because I think we all who are bosses because I think we all want people I do I want people to love want people I do I want people to love want people I do I want people to love what I love, what I love, what I love, right? right? right? I love creating. I love new. I'm working I love creating. I love new. I'm working I love creating. I love new. I'm working on a book right now. I am in my glory. I on a book right now. I am in my glory. I on a book right now. I am in my glory. I found the topic. I found the words. found the topic. I found the words. found the topic. I found the words. I'm like so excited about it. And I'm like so excited about it. And I'm like so excited about it. And I want everybody to be excited about it.

I want everybody to be excited about it. I want everybody to be excited about it. A lot of pastor would say, "I'm excited A lot of pastor would say, "I'm excited A lot of pastor would say, "I'm excited about the mission." Or honestly, I'm about the mission." Or honestly, I'm about the mission." Or honestly, I'm excited about my sermons excited about my sermons excited about my sermons cuz whatever we're involved in tends to cuz whatever we're involved in tends to cuz whatever we're involved in tends to be the thing we're most excited about. be the thing we're most excited about. be the thing we're most excited about. But I think it's fair like if you have But I think it's fair like if you have But I think it's fair like if you have 25 staff, you might have 25 different 25 staff, you might have 25 different 25 staff, you might have 25 different light bulbs that go off for different light bulbs that go off for different light bulbs that go off for different things. I really like my colleagues. I things. I really like my colleagues. I things. I really like my colleagues. I love getting out of the house and going love getting out of the house and going love getting out of the house and going to an office and doing meaningful work. to an office and doing meaningful work. to an office and doing meaningful work. I love having coffee with people. I love I love having coffee with people. I love I love having coffee with people. I love spreadsheets, you know. spreadsheets, you know. spreadsheets, you know. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, that kind of thing, right? Where and and that kind of thing, right? Where and and that kind of thing, right? Where and and I think bosses I'm I'm putting words in I think bosses I'm I'm putting words in I think bosses I'm I'm putting words in your mouth, so feel free to finesse, but your mouth, so feel free to finesse, but your mouth, so feel free to finesse, but bosses have to realize that yeah, bosses have to realize that yeah, bosses have to realize that yeah, there's a diversity of gifts and there's there's a diversity of gifts and there's there's a diversity of gifts and there's a diversity of passions and inspirations a diversity of passions and inspirations a diversity of passions and inspirations that are going to light people up at that are going to light people up at that are going to light people up at work. Is that is that what you're trying work. Is that is that what you're trying work. Is that is that what you're trying to say? to say? to say? For sure. And that's great. you know, For sure. And that's great. you know, For sure. And that's great. you know, like you want the person who loves the like you want the person who loves the like you want the person who loves the spreadsheets. You want the person that's spreadsheets. You want the person that's spreadsheets. You want the person that's also like super good at their thing and also like super good at their thing and also like super good at their thing and just wants to do that all day, you know, just wants to do that all day, you know, just wants to do that all day, you know, like it it takes all kinds to, you know, like it it takes all kinds to, you know, like it it takes all kinds to, you know, to run a world and also a business. And to run a world and also a business. And to run a world and also a business. And I think that's a really that's a really I think that's a really that's a really I think that's a really that's a really beautiful thing. So, as long as beautiful thing. So, as long as beautiful thing. So, as long as obviously people understand their roles obviously people understand their roles obviously people understand their roles and their parts, if different things and their parts, if different things and their parts, if different things bring different people joy, you know, bring different people joy, you know, bring different people joy, you know, like some people just aren't into the like some people just aren't into the like some people just aren't into the team bonding thing, that's okay. you team bonding thing, that's okay. you team bonding thing, that's okay. you know, like that the extroverts will find know, like that the extroverts will find know, like that the extroverts will find each other like each other like each other like Stanley on the office, Stanley on the office, Stanley on the office, right? Every office has a Stanley, right? Every office has a Stanley, right? Every office has a Stanley, right? And like that's all cool. And I right? And like that's all cool. And I right? And like that's all cool. And I think it's part of sort of humanizing think it's part of sort of humanizing think it's part of sort of humanizing the workplace again, which is a mission the workplace again, which is a mission the workplace again, which is a mission of mine. It's just making it okay to of mine. It's just making it okay to of mine. It's just making it okay to show up as who you are with what you

show up as who you are with what you show up as who you are with what you enjoy enjoy enjoy and letting that be something that's and letting that be something that's and letting that be something that's valued, that we don't all have to enjoy valued, that we don't all have to enjoy valued, that we don't all have to enjoy exactly the same thing. Um, but I think exactly the same thing. Um, but I think exactly the same thing. Um, but I think you're right. A lot of bosses will think you're right. A lot of bosses will think you're right. A lot of bosses will think like this is what's most important and like this is what's most important and like this is what's most important and therefore I must make sure everyone therefore I must make sure everyone therefore I must make sure everyone feels that it's important. But you know, feels that it's important. But you know, feels that it's important. But you know, and add the church into it, religion and add the church into it, religion and add the church into it, religion into it, mission. into it, mission. into it, mission. And you've got like, well, of course it And you've got like, well, of course it And you've got like, well, of course it has to be important. What's more has to be important. What's more has to be important. What's more important than Jesus? important than Jesus? important than Jesus? Right. Right. Right. True. And yet and yet there's still True. And yet and yet there's still True. And yet and yet there's still diversity within that. And some people diversity within that. And some people diversity within that. And some people are just going to want to stack the are just going to want to stack the are just going to want to stack the coffee cups coffee cups coffee cups like super well, you know, and like like super well, you know, and like like super well, you know, and like that's going to bring them joy. Great. that's going to bring them joy. Great. that's going to bring them joy. Great. That brings me joy, too. Okay, that's That brings me joy, too. Okay, that's That brings me joy, too. Okay, that's super helpful. So, um, super helpful. So, um, super helpful. So, um, for the boss, by the way, I want to come for the boss, by the way, I want to come for the boss, by the way, I want to come back to humanizing the workplace because back to humanizing the workplace because back to humanizing the workplace because I want to talk about AI. I was just in I want to talk about AI. I was just in I want to talk about AI. I was just in New York, saw some things that were New York, saw some things that were New York, saw some things that were really interesting and I want to get really interesting and I want to get really interesting and I want to get your take on it. Um, but when it comes your take on it. Um, but when it comes your take on it. Um, but when it comes to the boss who maybe now some light to the boss who maybe now some light to the boss who maybe now some light bulbs are going on in their head, bulbs are going on in their head, bulbs are going on in their head, what can they do if they realize, "Oh what can they do if they realize, "Oh what can they do if they realize, "Oh yeah, I'm the guy texting the team yeah, I'm the guy texting the team yeah, I'm the guy texting the team Saturday about all the changes I'm Saturday about all the changes I'm Saturday about all the changes I'm making for Sunday's message, you know, making for Sunday's message, you know, making for Sunday's message, you know, text emailing them at 5:30 a.m. and text emailing them at 5:30 a.m. and text emailing them at 5:30 a.m. and 10:00 p.m. just cuz my laptop was open."

10:00 p.m. just cuz my laptop was open." 10:00 p.m. just cuz my laptop was open." Or, you know, I think we have a fun Or, you know, I think we have a fun Or, you know, I think we have a fun culture, but probably looking around, I culture, but probably looking around, I culture, but probably looking around, I don't think the team thinks we have a don't think the team thinks we have a don't think the team thinks we have a fun culture. fun culture. fun culture. What's their next steps? What are the What's their next steps? What are the What's their next steps? What are the questions they should be asking? The questions they should be asking? The questions they should be asking? The steps they should be taking. What's your steps they should be taking. What's your steps they should be taking. What's your advice for that senior pastor, senior advice for that senior pastor, senior advice for that senior pastor, senior leader in that situation, Bri? leader in that situation, Bri? leader in that situation, Bri? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, my default guidance, which works in So, my default guidance, which works in So, my default guidance, which works in many situations, is always just say what many situations, is always just say what many situations, is always just say what you're thinking. So, if I were if I were you're thinking. So, if I were if I were you're thinking. So, if I were if I were that pastor in the next team meeting, I that pastor in the next team meeting, I that pastor in the next team meeting, I would say, "Look, team, I'm feeling like would say, "Look, team, I'm feeling like would say, "Look, team, I'm feeling like a little uneasy about the fact that I've a little uneasy about the fact that I've a little uneasy about the fact that I've been sending all these Saturday notes been sending all these Saturday notes been sending all these Saturday notes about revising things for Sunday, about about revising things for Sunday, about about revising things for Sunday, about that I'm sending 9:00 p.m. messages. that I'm sending 9:00 p.m. messages. that I'm sending 9:00 p.m. messages. I don't on the one hand, I feel like, I don't on the one hand, I feel like, I don't on the one hand, I feel like, well, that's what we have to do to get well, that's what we have to do to get well, that's what we have to do to get things together. Like, if I could have things together. Like, if I could have things together. Like, if I could have done it earlier, I would have." And so I done it earlier, I would have." And so I done it earlier, I would have." And so I want to make sure that we're doing our want to make sure that we're doing our want to make sure that we're doing our best, but also I'm kind of worried about best, but also I'm kind of worried about best, but also I'm kind of worried about like how are you all receiving that like like how are you all receiving that like like how are you all receiving that like and what is the impact? And also does and what is the impact? And also does and what is the impact? And also does anyone have any ideas for like should we anyone have any ideas for like should we anyone have any ideas for like should we switch up the schedule for how Sunday switch up the schedule for how Sunday switch up the schedule for how Sunday prep goes? And like so that's what I'm prep goes? And like so that's what I'm prep goes? And like so that's what I'm thinking. How are you all feeling and thinking. How are you all feeling and thinking. How are you all feeling and what do you think? like the the amount what do you think? like the the amount what do you think? like the the amount of engagement and enrollment that you of engagement and enrollment that you of engagement and enrollment that you will garner from just being honest about will garner from just being honest about will garner from just being honest about it cuz now everybody's on your side.

it cuz now everybody's on your side. it cuz now everybody's on your side. Everyone's like, "Hey, yeah, that is Everyone's like, "Hey, yeah, that is Everyone's like, "Hey, yeah, that is kind of rough. Let's fix it together. I kind of rough. Let's fix it together. I kind of rough. Let's fix it together. I had this idea for maybe we could do like had this idea for maybe we could do like had this idea for maybe we could do like a draft on Thursday and you know, a draft on Thursday and you know, a draft on Thursday and you know, whatever it is." But you want to enroll whatever it is." But you want to enroll whatever it is." But you want to enroll people in and also in supporting you in people in and also in supporting you in people in and also in supporting you in being the best leader that you can being the best leader that you can being the best leader that you can because you can't read people's minds. because you can't read people's minds. because you can't read people's minds. Like maybe some people are like, Like maybe some people are like, Like maybe some people are like, "Actually, the Saturday notes are fine "Actually, the Saturday notes are fine "Actually, the Saturday notes are fine cuz we can't get around that, but if we cuz we can't get around that, but if we cuz we can't get around that, but if we could not message after 6 p.m. on could not message after 6 p.m. on could not message after 6 p.m. on weekdays, that would really help me to weekdays, that would really help me to weekdays, that would really help me to detect, you know, whatever it it's. It's detect, you know, whatever it it's. It's detect, you know, whatever it it's. It's just having those conversations and just having those conversations and just having those conversations and telling telling that truth and exposing telling telling that truth and exposing telling telling that truth and exposing some vulnerability some vulnerability some vulnerability is not a weakness. It's it's actually is not a weakness. It's it's actually is not a weakness. It's it's actually endearing you to the people that you're endearing you to the people that you're endearing you to the people that you're working with. working with. working with. In your consulting work and your work In your consulting work and your work In your consulting work and your work and you've worked with hundreds maybe and you've worked with hundreds maybe and you've worked with hundreds maybe thousands of corporations thousands of corporations thousands of corporations in your estimation, what percentage of in your estimation, what percentage of in your estimation, what percentage of CEOs/ senior leaders actually have that CEOs/ senior leaders actually have that CEOs/ senior leaders actually have that kind of conversation?

Fewer. Well, when I work with them, I Fewer. Well, when I work with them, I try to make try to make try to make the number gets a little higher. I hope the number gets a little higher. I hope the number gets a little higher. I hope um definitely fewer than than should be. um definitely fewer than than should be. um definitely fewer than than should be. And I think And I think And I think it's a minority, isn't it? It's a small. it's a minority, isn't it? It's a small. it's a minority, isn't it? It's a small. It's definitely a minority because I It's definitely a minority because I It's definitely a minority because I think conventional leadership guidance think conventional leadership guidance think conventional leadership guidance is always be strong. Don't show is always be strong. Don't show is always be strong. Don't show weakness. If you do, your people will weakness. If you do, your people will weakness. If you do, your people will start to doubt you or think, you know, start to doubt you or think, you know, start to doubt you or think, you know, wonder if you know what you're doing. wonder if you know what you're doing. wonder if you know what you're doing. That you always have to present as That you always have to present as That you always have to present as positive and optimistic. positive and optimistic. positive and optimistic. And so sure, yeah, like I like And so sure, yeah, like I like And so sure, yeah, like I like optimistic leaders, too. Like I like optimistic leaders, too. Like I like optimistic leaders, too. Like I like confident leaders, but there will inevitably be things in any there will inevitably be things in any organization that aren't going organization that aren't going organization that aren't going perfectly. And if a leader is not perfectly. And if a leader is not perfectly. And if a leader is not acknowledging it, then employees start acknowledging it, then employees start acknowledging it, then employees start to feel one of two ways. Either like, do to feel one of two ways. Either like, do to feel one of two ways. Either like, do they not see it? Do they not see how they not see it? Do they not see how they not see it? Do they not see how hard it is to be messaged all nights and hard it is to be messaged all nights and hard it is to be messaged all nights and weekends? do they not care about it? And weekends? do they not care about it? And weekends? do they not care about it? And so you start to get some of that grape so you start to get some of that grape so you start to get some of that grape vine that we talked about.

vine that we talked about. vine that we talked about. So it's ironic, but actually the So it's ironic, but actually the So it's ironic, but actually the stronger move is as a leader to say I'm stronger move is as a leader to say I'm stronger move is as a leader to say I'm very aware of the experience of working very aware of the experience of working very aware of the experience of working here, of the experience of working with here, of the experience of working with here, of the experience of working with me. I want to make it the best that I me. I want to make it the best that I me. I want to make it the best that I can. Like that's a move of strength, can. Like that's a move of strength, can. Like that's a move of strength, even though it's not sort of even though it's not sort of even though it's not sort of conventionally seen that way. conventionally seen that way. conventionally seen that way. Yeah, I'm with you. And you know what? I Yeah, I'm with you. And you know what? I Yeah, I'm with you. And you know what? I learned that probably in my late 30s, learned that probably in my late 30s, learned that probably in my late 30s, early 40s um to do that and be more early 40s um to do that and be more early 40s um to do that and be more transparent. And I wish I had known it transparent. And I wish I had known it transparent. And I wish I had known it out of the gate. I did not know it out out of the gate. I did not know it out out of the gate. I did not know it out of the gate, but what a difference it of the gate, but what a difference it of the gate, but what a difference it makes. Can you tell us when you're makes. Can you tell us when you're makes. Can you tell us when you're sitting there as a second or third chair sitting there as a second or third chair sitting there as a second or third chair leader and your senior pastor gets up leader and your senior pastor gets up leader and your senior pastor gets up and goes, "I know we have some issues and goes, "I know we have some issues and goes, "I know we have some issues here and I've been thinking about it and here and I've been thinking about it and here and I've been thinking about it and the last minute changes that suck up the last minute changes that suck up the last minute changes that suck up your day off and the 9:00 p.m. emails your day off and the 9:00 p.m. emails your day off and the 9:00 p.m. emails and the 5:30 a.m. texts are probably a and the 5:30 a.m. texts are probably a and the 5:30 a.m. texts are probably a problem and you even said it better than problem and you even said it better than problem and you even said it better than me." me." me." But they're kind of confessing, which is But they're kind of confessing, which is But they're kind of confessing, which is something we're supposed to do as something we're supposed to do as something we're supposed to do as Christians.

Christians. Christians. They're being transparent. Um, what goes They're being transparent. Um, what goes They're being transparent. Um, what goes on in the mind just for the leaders on in the mind just for the leaders on in the mind just for the leaders listening who are like, I don't know listening who are like, I don't know listening who are like, I don't know whether I could do that. What goes on in whether I could do that. What goes on in whether I could do that. What goes on in the mind of your team members who report the mind of your team members who report the mind of your team members who report to you all the way down whether that's to you all the way down whether that's to you all the way down whether that's 20 or 200 20 or 200 20 or 200 when you have a conversation with them when you have a conversation with them when you have a conversation with them like that. What's happening in the room? like that. What's happening in the room? like that. What's happening in the room? What's happening to your team? What are What's happening to your team? What are What's happening to your team? What are they thinking? What are they feeling? they thinking? What are they feeling? they thinking? What are they feeling? They are breathing a sigh of relief They are breathing a sigh of relief They are breathing a sigh of relief because they their experience is being because they their experience is being because they their experience is being seen in a way that perhaps it hadn't seen in a way that perhaps it hadn't seen in a way that perhaps it hadn't been seen before. been seen before. been seen before. As humans, when we feel seen and cared As humans, when we feel seen and cared As humans, when we feel seen and cared for, like there is no greater feeling. for, like there is no greater feeling. for, like there is no greater feeling. And it's a form of love, right? like to And it's a form of love, right? like to And it's a form of love, right? like to care so much that you're willing to have care so much that you're willing to have care so much that you're willing to have a difficult conversation and you're a difficult conversation and you're a difficult conversation and you're willing to truly empathize with the willing to truly empathize with the willing to truly empathize with the others around you who's you know whose others around you who's you know whose others around you who's you know whose lives are being impacted by your so lives are being impacted by your so lives are being impacted by your so there's so quite literally in that there's so quite literally in that there's so quite literally in that situation if I was hearing that I would situation if I was hearing that I would situation if I was hearing that I would be thinking be thinking be thinking oh my gosh I'm so glad we get to talk oh my gosh I'm so glad we get to talk oh my gosh I'm so glad we get to talk we're going to get to talk about this we're going to get to talk about this we're going to get to talk about this like maybe I there's a little hope for like maybe I there's a little hope for like maybe I there's a little hope for this being different like I feels like I this being different like I feels like I this being different like I feels like I think that pastor noticed that like I think that pastor noticed that like I think that pastor noticed that like I was working late that that was time away was working late that that was time away was working late that that was time away from my kids or my sleep or you know my from my kids or my sleep or you know my from my kids or my sleep or you know my family family family like that was seen I just thought that

like that was seen I just thought that like that was seen I just thought that that was expected of me but that was that was expected of me but that was that was expected of me but that was actually appreciated like actually appreciated like actually appreciated like wow okay and then maybe we could make wow okay and then maybe we could make wow okay and then maybe we could make that a bit different like those are the that a bit different like those are the that a bit different like those are the things going through my head it's it's things going through my head it's it's things going through my head it's it's validation it's hope it's gratitude ude validation it's hope it's gratitude ude validation it's hope it's gratitude ude all of those things. And you know, you all of those things. And you know, you all of those things. And you know, you don't even have to start big. It's not don't even have to start big. It's not don't even have to start big. It's not that I would ask any leader to be like, that I would ask any leader to be like, that I would ask any leader to be like, I'm worried I'm being a terrible leader, I'm worried I'm being a terrible leader, I'm worried I'm being a terrible leader, right? Like, you know, it's just like right? Like, you know, it's just like right? Like, you know, it's just like don't be melodramatic. don't be melodramatic. don't be melodramatic. No. you know like you're being a great No. you know like you're being a great No. you know like you're being a great leader who's trying their best with the leader who's trying their best with the leader who's trying their best with the time that they are given in the day and time that they are given in the day and time that they are given in the day and the resources that you have you know and the resources that you have you know and the resources that you have you know and so that's part of sort of endearing so that's part of sort of endearing so that's part of sort of endearing people to the solution as well is to say people to the solution as well is to say people to the solution as well is to say the reason I do that is because during the reason I do that is because during the reason I do that is because during the day I'm doing all these other things the day I'm doing all these other things the day I'm doing all these other things and the messages fall to the evenings and the messages fall to the evenings and the messages fall to the evenings and I'm trying my best to get everything and I'm trying my best to get everything and I'm trying my best to get everything ready for Sunday but Saturday always ready for Sunday but Saturday always ready for Sunday but Saturday always ends up being a day you know and now and ends up being a day you know and now and ends up being a day you know and now and now people are seeing like I see your now people are seeing like I see your now people are seeing like I see your experience leader. Like I see where experience leader. Like I see where experience leader. Like I see where you're coming from and it's not a you're coming from and it's not a you're coming from and it's not a carelessness about my time. It was I did carelessness about my time. It was I did carelessness about my time. It was I did my best with business hours and then I my best with business hours and then I my best with business hours and then I had to flow over. And that's also part had to flow over. And that's also part had to flow over. And that's also part of the solution is because also of the solution is because also of the solution is because also leadership is lonely. Like speaking of leadership is lonely. Like speaking of leadership is lonely. Like speaking of being seen like leaders, most leaders I being seen like leaders, most leaders I being seen like leaders, most leaders I work with don't feel seen and feel like work with don't feel seen and feel like work with don't feel seen and feel like they are carrying the weight of the they are carrying the weight of the they are carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders.

world on their shoulders. world on their shoulders. that they're largely alone in it. And so that they're largely alone in it. And so that they're largely alone in it. And so also what a relief to have a group of also what a relief to have a group of also what a relief to have a group of people around you say like empathize people around you say like empathize people around you say like empathize with you and to say like we're going to with you and to say like we're going to with you and to say like we're going to help you carry that weight too. We know help you carry that weight too. We know help you carry that weight too. We know that things have to go well on Sunday. that things have to go well on Sunday. that things have to go well on Sunday. Let's figure out how to Let's figure out how to Let's figure out how to plan better with you. Like it's when plan better with you. Like it's when plan better with you. Like it's when leaders are vulnerable in that way. Like leaders are vulnerable in that way. Like leaders are vulnerable in that way. Like when I've been vulnerable v vulnerable when I've been vulnerable v vulnerable when I've been vulnerable v vulnerable in that way with teams, in that way with teams, in that way with teams, I'm overwhelmed with the amount of I'm overwhelmed with the amount of I'm overwhelmed with the amount of support that I feel in return cuz the support that I feel in return cuz the support that I feel in return cuz the people on the team will be like, "Bri, people on the team will be like, "Bri, people on the team will be like, "Bri, we've got you. We've we've got this. we've got you. We've we've got this. we've got you. We've we've got this. Let's figure it out." Let's figure it out." Let's figure it out." It's like really a pretty profound It's like really a pretty profound It's like really a pretty profound experience because then you're really in experience because then you're really in experience because then you're really in it with people. Like that's what true it with people. Like that's what true it with people. Like that's what true teamwork feels like when you're like teamwork feels like when you're like teamwork feels like when you're like really truly in it with each other. And really truly in it with each other. And really truly in it with each other. And um and it's so it's worth trying even in um and it's so it's worth trying even in um and it's so it's worth trying even in a very small way about evening text a very small way about evening text a very small way about evening text messages. messages. messages. So Bri, once in a while I can see doing So Bri, once in a while I can see doing So Bri, once in a while I can see doing a court uh a course correction. So a court uh a course correction. So a court uh a course correction. So somebody listening to this podcast is somebody listening to this podcast is somebody listening to this podcast is like I got to do that at the next staff like I got to do that at the next staff like I got to do that at the next staff meeting. Get it? But but things drift.

meeting. Get it? But but things drift. meeting. Get it? But but things drift. You fall back into old habits. You know, You fall back into old habits. You know, You fall back into old habits. You know, new patterns emerge. The church grew. new patterns emerge. The church grew. new patterns emerge. The church grew. Now you're busier than ever. How do you Now you're busier than ever. How do you Now you're busier than ever. How do you bake this into the culture so that bake this into the culture so that bake this into the culture so that you're not doing once every 3 years big you're not doing once every 3 years big you're not doing once every 3 years big talk we got to make this better and then talk we got to make this better and then talk we got to make this better and then it's back to usual or um new problems it's back to usual or um new problems it's back to usual or um new problems creep up that are unressed. How do you creep up that are unressed. How do you creep up that are unressed. How do you bake in that kind of honesty feedback bake in that kind of honesty feedback bake in that kind of honesty feedback culture? You can do the check-in I think culture? You can do the check-in I think culture? You can do the check-in I think what you mentioned but I'd love some what you mentioned but I'd love some what you mentioned but I'd love some other practical strategies for church other practical strategies for church other practical strategies for church leaders to make sure that we don't drift leaders to make sure that we don't drift leaders to make sure that we don't drift too far from that core. too far from that core. too far from that core. Sure. Sure. Sure. So, one is like the good oldfashioned So, one is like the good oldfashioned So, one is like the good oldfashioned offsite or if not like for a whole day, offsite or if not like for a whole day, offsite or if not like for a whole day, just a few hours, maybe quarterly or just a few hours, maybe quarterly or just a few hours, maybe quarterly or something like that. Um, I have a really something like that. Um, I have a really something like that. Um, I have a really simple four question sequence that you simple four question sequence that you simple four question sequence that you can ask people. So, feel free to steal can ask people. So, feel free to steal can ask people. So, feel free to steal this and put this in your in your next this and put this in your in your next this and put this in your in your next offsite. offsite. offsite. The question for everybody, it's an open The question for everybody, it's an open The question for everybody, it's an open discussion. Is what's changing? Like discussion. Is what's changing? Like discussion. Is what's changing? Like what's either rising or falling? What's what's either rising or falling? What's what's either rising or falling? What's becoming more important or less becoming more important or less becoming more important or less important? What's changing?

important? What's changing? important? What's changing? in our organization or church. That's in our organization or church. That's in our organization or church. That's the first question. Um quite literally the first question. Um quite literally the first question. Um quite literally what you can have people do is write what you can have people do is write what you can have people do is write down on post-its what they're seeing so down on post-its what they're seeing so down on post-its what they're seeing so they don't sort of, you know, they have they don't sort of, you know, they have they don't sort of, you know, they have time to think for themselves and then time to think for themselves and then time to think for themselves and then you can all share around. The second you can all share around. The second you can all share around. The second question is why is it changing? question is why is it changing? question is why is it changing? So maybe if the first is like our So maybe if the first is like our So maybe if the first is like our membership is growing exponentially, the membership is growing exponentially, the membership is growing exponentially, the second question is well why is it second question is well why is it second question is well why is it changing? Oh, well, we're doing all changing? Oh, well, we're doing all changing? Oh, well, we're doing all these new things and you know, we're our these new things and you know, we're our these new things and you know, we're our efforts have really helped. The third efforts have really helped. The third efforts have really helped. The third question is what happens to us if this question is what happens to us if this question is what happens to us if this change continues? change continues? change continues? So, if you're growing at the rate that So, if you're growing at the rate that So, if you're growing at the rate that you're growing, you're growing, you're growing, what's going to happen if nothing else what's going to happen if nothing else what's going to happen if nothing else changes? Like, oh, we're we're not going changes? Like, oh, we're we're not going changes? Like, oh, we're we're not going to have enough space. We're not going to to have enough space. We're not going to to have enough space. We're not going to have enough people. We're not going to have enough people. We're not going to have enough people. We're not going to have. And then the fourth question is have. And then the fourth question is have. And then the fourth question is let's assume this change will continue. let's assume this change will continue. let's assume this change will continue. What do we want to change now to be What do we want to change now to be What do we want to change now to be proactive?

proactive? proactive? And so And so And so in the situation of growth, maybe it's in the situation of growth, maybe it's in the situation of growth, maybe it's well let's just put up a job listing well let's just put up a job listing well let's just put up a job listing just to poke around in case we get to just to poke around in case we get to just to poke around in case we get to the point of needing to hire someone to the point of needing to hire someone to the point of needing to hire someone to help with XYZ. help with XYZ. help with XYZ. or now we're needing to do like two or now we're needing to do like two or now we're needing to do like two community events a week as opposed to community events a week as opposed to community events a week as opposed to one event a week. Um, let's schedule a one event a week. Um, let's schedule a one event a week. Um, let's schedule a day to plan to block all of those out on day to plan to block all of those out on day to plan to block all of those out on the calendar now before they just like the calendar now before they just like the calendar now before they just like hit us in the face week to week. So, hit us in the face week to week. So, hit us in the face week to week. So, it's a simple it's a simple it's a simple um Are you laughing event? um Are you laughing event? um Are you laughing event? I'm laughing with you. Those are such I'm laughing with you. Those are such I'm laughing with you. Those are such simple clarifying questions. Where have simple clarifying questions. Where have simple clarifying questions. Where have you been all my life? Thank you. you been all my life? Thank you. you been all my life? Thank you. Um, yeah. So it's anyway the way you Um, yeah. So it's anyway the way you Um, yeah. So it's anyway the way you bake it in is through rituals. So that's bake it in is through rituals. So that's bake it in is through rituals. So that's just one ritual so that you have and just one ritual so that you have and just one ritual so that you have and just put it on the calendar. just put it on the calendar. just put it on the calendar. Once a quarter is fine, once a month if Once a quarter is fine, once a month if Once a quarter is fine, once a month if things are changing really quickly things are changing really quickly things are changing really quickly so that you have a dedicated time to so that you have a dedicated time to so that you have a dedicated time to talk about what's changing talk about what's changing talk about what's changing and what are your what you're going to and what are your what you're going to and what are your what you're going to do about it. Um the other trick to sort do about it. Um the other trick to sort do about it. Um the other trick to sort of avoid the slide is for any new of avoid the slide is for any new of avoid the slide is for any new process um meeting any new thing that process um meeting any new thing that process um meeting any new thing that you're putting into place um like we're you're putting into place um like we're you're putting into place um like we're going to do our budgeting like this give going to do our budgeting like this give going to do our budgeting like this give it a trip wire give it an end date an it a trip wire give it an end date an it a trip wire give it an end date an expiration date we're going to try our expiration date we're going to try our expiration date we're going to try our budgeting process like this for 6 months budgeting process like this for 6 months budgeting process like this for 6 months and then literally put on the calendar a and then literally put on the calendar a and then literally put on the calendar a meeting to say review if budgeting meeting to say review if budgeting meeting to say review if budgeting process process process is working. And so so often we try new

is working. And so so often we try new is working. And so so often we try new processes or like ways to run our processes or like ways to run our processes or like ways to run our organizations and then we just sort of organizations and then we just sort of organizations and then we just sort of like let them go on forever and we don't like let them go on forever and we don't like let them go on forever and we don't stop and do a retrospective on did this stop and do a retrospective on did this stop and do a retrospective on did this work or not. And so even for any work or not. And so even for any work or not. And so even for any um for any new process or just any um for any new process or just any um for any new process or just any existing process, just try and bake in existing process, just try and bake in existing process, just try and bake in at least every six months what's working at least every six months what's working at least every six months what's working about this, what's not working about about this, what's not working about about this, what's not working about this, and what do we change? this, and what do we change? this, and what do we change? That's so good. And you know what that That's so good. And you know what that That's so good. And you know what that work? Because something's always work? Because something's always work? Because something's always changing. changing. changing. That works in a season of growth. It That works in a season of growth. It That works in a season of growth. It works in a season of stagnation. Works works in a season of stagnation. Works works in a season of stagnation. Works in a season of decline. in a season of decline. in a season of decline. And often we don't take the time to look And often we don't take the time to look And often we don't take the time to look at the meta issues that are causing the at the meta issues that are causing the at the meta issues that are causing the stress fractures in our workflow. So stress fractures in our workflow. So stress fractures in our workflow. So those four questions are making it those four questions are making it those four questions are making it directly into my next team offsite into directly into my next team offsite into directly into my next team offsite into my personal retreats. my personal retreats. my personal retreats. Such a gift. I want to talk about Such a gift. I want to talk about Such a gift. I want to talk about humanizing the workforce. I'm doing uh humanizing the workforce. I'm doing uh humanizing the workforce. I'm doing uh in the middle maybe the early stages of in the middle maybe the early stages of in the middle maybe the early stages of a very very deep dive into artificial a very very deep dive into artificial a very very deep dive into artificial intelligence and how it's going to intelligence and how it's going to intelligence and how it's going to disrupt culture, the workplace, the disrupt culture, the workplace, the disrupt culture, the workplace, the church, etc.

church, etc. church, etc. But where we sit in mid 2025 is But where we sit in mid 2025 is But where we sit in mid 2025 is you if you read the headlines, you if you read the headlines, you if you read the headlines, college students can't get jobs. Chat college students can't get jobs. Chat college students can't get jobs. Chat GBT is doing the job of entry-level GBT is doing the job of entry-level GBT is doing the job of entry-level workers in the knowledge field. Like workers in the knowledge field. Like workers in the knowledge field. Like they're not going to serve burgers and they're not going to serve burgers and they're not going to serve burgers and fries. AI not yet. Maybe humaned robots fries. AI not yet. Maybe humaned robots fries. AI not yet. Maybe humaned robots one day will make your French fries one day will make your French fries one day will make your French fries perfect. I don't know. But right now, perfect. I don't know. But right now, perfect. I don't know. But right now, that's still the purview of 15year-olds, that's still the purview of 15year-olds, that's still the purview of 15year-olds, but like college grads can't get jobs. I but like college grads can't get jobs. I but like college grads can't get jobs. I was uh just up the road from you in was uh just up the road from you in was uh just up the road from you in Manhattan a couple weeks ago Manhattan a couple weeks ago Manhattan a couple weeks ago and toured I won't say the name of the and toured I won't say the name of the and toured I won't say the name of the company, but everybody would know company, but everybody would know company, but everybody would know exactly who it is. Multi-billion dollar exactly who it is. Multi-billion dollar exactly who it is. Multi-billion dollar company headquartered in New York. And company headquartered in New York. And company headquartered in New York. And they had the most beautiful tech office they had the most beautiful tech office they had the most beautiful tech office space you could imagine. Silicon Valley space you could imagine. Silicon Valley space you could imagine. Silicon Valley dream like $10,000 sound isolating dream like $10,000 sound isolating dream like $10,000 sound isolating chairs. Wow. chairs. Wow. chairs. Wow. That you could just sit in and work in That you could just sit in and work in That you could just sit in and work in like stuff that you know nonprofit like stuff that you know nonprofit like stuff that you know nonprofit church leaders could never dream of. church leaders could never dream of. church leaders could never dream of. Beautiful. Ate in the cafeteria. Beautiful. Ate in the cafeteria. Beautiful. Ate in the cafeteria. Uh my salad, not one brown leaf of Uh my salad, not one brown leaf of Uh my salad, not one brown leaf of lettuce. I don't know whether they grew lettuce. I don't know whether they grew lettuce. I don't know whether they grew it instantly before I ate it. Chefs, it instantly before I ate it. Chefs, it instantly before I ate it. Chefs, baristas, you name it.

baristas, you name it. baristas, you name it. Wow. Wow. Wow. But morale was low. And morale was low But morale was low. And morale was low But morale was low. And morale was low because they had just laid off a whole because they had just laid off a whole because they had just laid off a whole bunch of workers for no particular bunch of workers for no particular bunch of workers for no particular reason other than profit maximization reason other than profit maximization reason other than profit maximization and AI. and AI. and AI. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Microsoft just laid off a lot of And Microsoft just laid off a lot of And Microsoft just laid off a lot of people earlier this year. Google people earlier this year. Google people earlier this year. Google shutting down its search division shutting down its search division shutting down its search division because of AI and giving optional because of AI and giving optional because of AI and giving optional buyouts. So, you know, there's a buyouts. So, you know, there's a buyouts. So, you know, there's a plausible theory that white collar plausible theory that white collar plausible theory that white collar workers are going to suffer badly in the workers are going to suffer badly in the workers are going to suffer badly in the initial waves of AI. So, any comments on initial waves of AI. So, any comments on initial waves of AI. So, any comments on that? And then I want to talk about the that? And then I want to talk about the that? And then I want to talk about the jobs that endure and what you said jobs that endure and what you said jobs that endure and what you said earlier about making the workplace more earlier about making the workplace more earlier about making the workplace more human because my working thesis is the human because my working thesis is the human because my working thesis is the ultimate antidote to AI is to become ultimate antidote to AI is to become ultimate antidote to AI is to become more human. But I don't I don't think more human. But I don't I don't think more human. But I don't I don't think humanity's ever, you know, unless we humanity's ever, you know, unless we humanity's ever, you know, unless we become extinct become extinct become extinct or the second coming from a Christian or the second coming from a Christian or the second coming from a Christian worldview point. Um worldview point. Um worldview point. Um I think we're going to want human things I think we're going to want human things I think we're going to want human things and I want to figure out what those are. and I want to figure out what those are. and I want to figure out what those are. But first of all, any general But first of all, any general But first of all, any general reflections on artificial intelligence reflections on artificial intelligence reflections on artificial intelligence and how it could be a disruptor for the and how it could be a disruptor for the and how it could be a disruptor for the white collar world?

white collar world? white collar world? I mean, it will be it is right. Like I mean, it will be it is right. Like I mean, it will be it is right. Like you're seeing it too in New York a you're seeing it too in New York a you're seeing it too in New York a little bit. little bit. little bit. I mean, for sure. I mean, for sure. I mean, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Um, Um, what are you seeing? what are you seeing? what are you seeing? Well, it's I mean, just what you're Well, it's I mean, just what you're Well, it's I mean, just what you're talking about. It's like the talking about. It's like the talking about. It's like the the jobs that were once deemed safe are the jobs that were once deemed safe are the jobs that were once deemed safe are no longer safe. Yeah, no longer safe. Yeah, no longer safe. Yeah, quote unquote. quote unquote. quote unquote. So, for a long time it was like, oh, AI So, for a long time it was like, oh, AI So, for a long time it was like, oh, AI is going to help you draft a better is going to help you draft a better is going to help you draft a better email, you know, and it's email, you know, and it's email, you know, and it's kind of doing that, but now it's like, kind of doing that, but now it's like, kind of doing that, but now it's like, oh no, it's going to do all the coding. oh no, it's going to do all the coding. oh no, it's going to do all the coding. So, it, So, it, So, it, you know, you know, you know, school at a time when it was like teach school at a time when it was like teach school at a time when it was like teach your kids to code every that's going to your kids to code every that's going to your kids to code every that's going to be the skill of the future. And now it's be the skill of the future. And now it's be the skill of the future. And now it's sort of like sort of like sort of like is it like is that has that come and is it like is that has that come and is it like is that has that come and gone? So, and yes, and then there's just gone? So, and yes, and then there's just gone? So, and yes, and then there's just frankly layoffs um all over the place. frankly layoffs um all over the place. frankly layoffs um all over the place. This is like I mean honestly I'm still This is like I mean honestly I'm still This is like I mean honestly I'm still wrapping my head around this. What I wrapping my head around this. What I wrapping my head around this. What I I think everybody is. I think everybody is. I think everybody is. Yes. Right. Like what I hope from a Yes. Right. Like what I hope from a Yes. Right. Like what I hope from a leadership perspective, leadership perspective, leadership perspective, this is what I hope in a utopian world.

this is what I hope in a utopian world. this is what I hope in a utopian world. Probably won't happen most places, Probably won't happen most places, Probably won't happen most places, but one can dream. Um like as we talked but one can dream. Um like as we talked but one can dream. Um like as we talked about, businesses are designed to about, businesses are designed to about, businesses are designed to extract their resources and deliver extract their resources and deliver extract their resources and deliver value and do so as efficiently as value and do so as efficiently as value and do so as efficiently as possible. possible. possible. And in the corporate world, gain, you And in the corporate world, gain, you And in the corporate world, gain, you know, gather as much profit as possible know, gather as much profit as possible know, gather as much profit as possible is the setup. is the setup. is the setup. So in that sort of world, burnout is So in that sort of world, burnout is So in that sort of world, burnout is rife for the reasons we talked about rife for the reasons we talked about rife for the reasons we talked about because you're extracting from people because you're extracting from people because you're extracting from people and being extracted is exhausting and and being extracted is exhausting and and being extracted is exhausting and you leads to burnout. you leads to burnout. you leads to burnout. It's ironic because when we are It's ironic because when we are It's ironic because when we are exhausting and doing those like evening exhausting and doing those like evening exhausting and doing those like evening messages and weekend work, we're just messages and weekend work, we're just messages and weekend work, we're just like, "Oh, I wish there could be a like, "Oh, I wish there could be a like, "Oh, I wish there could be a technology that would come along that technology that would come along that technology that would come along that could do a bunch of my work for me so I could do a bunch of my work for me so I could do a bunch of my work for me so I could sign off at 5:00 p.m. and relax on could sign off at 5:00 p.m. and relax on could sign off at 5:00 p.m. and relax on the weekends. Like, if only there were a the weekends. Like, if only there were a the weekends. Like, if only there were a technology that could do some of that technology that could do some of that technology that could do some of that work." And then the universe is like, work." And then the universe is like, work." And then the universe is like, "Here you go." like here's the "Here you go." like here's the "Here you go." like here's the technology that can replace a lot of technology that can replace a lot of technology that can replace a lot of your work. But instead of of leaders and your work. But instead of of leaders and your work. But instead of of leaders and businesses being like thank you finally businesses being like thank you finally businesses being like thank you finally we have some balance finally you know we have some balance finally you know we have some balance finally you know things like 40 work weeks are on the things like 40 work weeks are on the things like 40 work weeks are on the table that never no instead of that it's table that never no instead of that it's table that never no instead of that it's like well let's reduce the workforce like well let's reduce the workforce like well let's reduce the workforce still maximize profits still squeeze the still maximize profits still squeeze the still maximize profits still squeeze the people let's not like ease up on the people let's not like ease up on the people let's not like ease up on the burnout.

burnout. burnout. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And And And that's true. that's true. that's true. I mean, that's just how capitalism I mean, that's just how capitalism I mean, that's just how capitalism works, which is annoying, you know, but works, which is annoying, you know, but works, which is annoying, you know, but but there is another way. And I'm but there is another way. And I'm but there is another way. And I'm interested in what are the organizations interested in what are the organizations interested in what are the organizations that will take the efficiencies of AI that will take the efficiencies of AI that will take the efficiencies of AI and just make a better life for the and just make a better life for the and just make a better life for the people within their organizations. people within their organizations. people within their organizations. Now, that's like a tall order and maybe Now, that's like a tall order and maybe Now, that's like a tall order and maybe people are listening are like that's people are listening are like that's people are listening are like that's never going to happen. But I the the never going to happen. But I the the never going to happen. But I the the reason I feel so passionately about, you reason I feel so passionately about, you reason I feel so passionately about, you know, talking about like humanizing know, talking about like humanizing know, talking about like humanizing business is because we forget that like business is because we forget that like business is because we forget that like it's just us here on the planet. like we it's just us here on the planet. like we it's just us here on the planet. like we are the workers that we are designing are the workers that we are designing are the workers that we are designing for, you know, like and so if we've for, you know, like and so if we've for, you know, like and so if we've designed ourselves into obsolescence or designed ourselves into obsolescence or designed ourselves into obsolescence or burnout burnout burnout like like we're doing it wrong and so I like like we're doing it wrong and so I like like we're doing it wrong and so I hope that there will be some, hope that there will be some, hope that there will be some, you know, corners of sunshine in the you know, corners of sunshine in the you know, corners of sunshine in the world where there's actually world where there's actually world where there's actually organizations that are using AI organizations that are using AI organizations that are using AI to make people, to make people, to make people, you know, bionic in some way, like you know, bionic in some way, like you know, bionic in some way, like better at their work and more, you know, better at their work and more, you know, better at their work and more, you know, more capable.

more capable. more capable. and more balanced. and more balanced. and more balanced. But frankly, like there of course will But frankly, like there of course will But frankly, like there of course will still be the layoffs and I worry like I still be the layoffs and I worry like I still be the layoffs and I worry like I have a 10-year-old daughter. I worry have a 10-year-old daughter. I worry have a 10-year-old daughter. I worry about like what are her career prospects about like what are her career prospects about like what are her career prospects going to be? going to be? going to be? A lot of parents are thinking about that A lot of parents are thinking about that A lot of parents are thinking about that now because it's a mid-shift correction. now because it's a mid-shift correction. now because it's a mid-shift correction. What you thought about her future when What you thought about her future when What you thought about her future when she was six is you can't think about it she was six is you can't think about it she was six is you can't think about it the same way now that she's 10. Is that the same way now that she's 10. Is that the same way now that she's 10. Is that is that accurate? is that accurate? is that accurate? Yeah. I mean, I Yeah. I mean, I Yeah. I mean, I I I just don't I don't know what I I just don't I don't know what I I just don't I don't know what opportunities are going to be available. opportunities are going to be available. opportunities are going to be available. And like I just have to have some faith And like I just have to have some faith And like I just have to have some faith that like what I do hope for and where I do like what I do hope for and where I do have some faith is that as long as we have some faith is that as long as we have some faith is that as long as we the humans are the customers of the humans are the customers of the humans are the customers of companies or of churches, you companies or of churches, you companies or of churches, you humans will always value human humans will always value human humans will always value human connection and other humanmade things. connection and other humanmade things. connection and other humanmade things. And so I joke sometimes that we're going And so I joke sometimes that we're going And so I joke sometimes that we're going to have like little stickers on products to have like little stickers on products to have like little stickers on products or content that says humanmade in the or content that says humanmade in the or content that says humanmade in the way that we have organic stickers on our way that we have organic stickers on our way that we have organic stickers on our produce.

produce. produce. You know, it's going to be like made by You know, it's going to be like made by You know, it's going to be like made by humans and people and it's going to be a humans and people and it's going to be a humans and people and it's going to be a premium because people still val like premium because people still val like premium because people still val like people still value that. Or, you know, people still value that. Or, you know, people still value that. Or, you know, if you think in a church setting, like if you think in a church setting, like if you think in a church setting, like people value feeling alive and feeling people value feeling alive and feeling people value feeling alive and feeling inspired. inspired. inspired. And as much as a chatbot can like really And as much as a chatbot can like really And as much as a chatbot can like really give like try, you know, and some do give like try, you know, and some do give like try, you know, and some do like some really they're being used for like some really they're being used for like some really they're being used for therapy now. therapy now. therapy now. There's no there will still be no There's no there will still be no There's no there will still be no replacement for replacement for replacement for like human art, human gathering, human like human art, human gathering, human like human art, human gathering, human connection, human connection, human connection, human um hope and inspiration. So, I'm hanging um hope and inspiration. So, I'm hanging um hope and inspiration. So, I'm hanging my head on that. my head on that. my head on that. Yeah, I am, too. And I wonder if it's Yeah, I am, too. And I wonder if it's Yeah, I am, too. And I wonder if it's going to be a hybrid world like, you going to be a hybrid world like, you going to be a hybrid world like, you know, we uh I got a coffee bar upstairs know, we uh I got a coffee bar upstairs know, we uh I got a coffee bar upstairs this week or this year, sorry. Uh this week or this year, sorry. Uh this week or this year, sorry. Uh friends who are really into coffee said, friends who are really into coffee said, friends who are really into coffee said, "We have extra. Would you like some?" "We have extra. Would you like some?" "We have extra. Would you like some?" Well, the only answer to that question Well, the only answer to that question Well, the only answer to that question is yes. So, got this beautiful espresso is yes. So, got this beautiful espresso is yes. So, got this beautiful espresso machine that I probably wouldn't have machine that I probably wouldn't have machine that I probably wouldn't have bought on my own. And then my wife and bought on my own. And then my wife and bought on my own. And then my wife and I, we, you know, we could order I, we, you know, we could order I, we, you know, we could order something off Amazon uh for $5 or something off Amazon uh for $5 or something off Amazon uh for $5 or something, but we were at a craft show, something, but we were at a craft show, something, but we were at a craft show, just local artists, and we met this just local artists, and we met this just local artists, and we met this artist and she made us some little artist and she made us some little artist and she made us some little cortado cups that are just gorgeous. And cortado cups that are just gorgeous. And cortado cups that are just gorgeous. And when people come over, they're like, when people come over, they're like, when people come over, they're like, "What are these? These are beautiful."

"What are these? These are beautiful." "What are these? These are beautiful." Well, these were handmade by Lisa. And Well, these were handmade by Lisa. And Well, these were handmade by Lisa. And you know they were $25 each, not um $5 you know they were $25 each, not um $5 you know they were $25 each, not um $5 or $15 each on Amazon. But that premium, or $15 each on Amazon. But that premium, or $15 each on Amazon. But that premium, you know, made by humans. I'm thinking you know, made by humans. I'm thinking you know, made by humans. I'm thinking even content will have to be labor, you even content will have to be labor, you even content will have to be labor, you know, labeled like this is 100% human know, labeled like this is 100% human know, labeled like this is 100% human conversation, but then you have deep conversation, but then you have deep conversation, but then you have deep fakes and everything. So I think there fakes and everything. So I think there fakes and everything. So I think there is a premium for that. What though does is a premium for that. What though does is a premium for that. What though does that look like? Have you thought through that look like? Have you thought through that look like? Have you thought through and I'm putting you on the spot here. and I'm putting you on the spot here. and I'm putting you on the spot here. This wasn't in the question list, but we This wasn't in the question list, but we This wasn't in the question list, but we can cut it out if it doesn't work. can cut it out if it doesn't work. can cut it out if it doesn't work. um like the jobs that are most at risk um like the jobs that are most at risk um like the jobs that are most at risk in the next few years like what are you in the next few years like what are you in the next few years like what are you seeing in New York because it's moving seeing in New York because it's moving seeing in New York because it's moving really quickly at scale in major centers really quickly at scale in major centers really quickly at scale in major centers now where literally tens of thousands of now where literally tens of thousands of now where literally tens of thousands of excellent paying white collar jobs are excellent paying white collar jobs are excellent paying white collar jobs are disappearing week by week. disappearing week by week. disappearing week by week. Yeah. I Yeah. I Yeah. I I'm worried about any analytical job, I'm worried about any analytical job, I'm worried about any analytical job, right? Like it's already panning out at right? Like it's already panning out at right? Like it's already panning out at places like Mckenzie, like any of the places like Mckenzie, like any of the places like Mckenzie, like any of the sort of like entry level put together a sort of like entry level put together a sort of like entry level put together a market analysis kind of thing, right? No market analysis kind of thing, right? No market analysis kind of thing, right? No longer needed. I worry about um my longer needed. I worry about um my longer needed. I worry about um my husband's a data scientist, you know, we husband's a data scientist, you know, we husband's a data scientist, you know, we talk all the time about like talk all the time about like talk all the time about like he's quite a senior data scientist. So he's quite a senior data scientist. So he's quite a senior data scientist. So he's he's not like he's he's not like he's he's not like he's not even just like typing and he's not even just like typing and he's not even just like typing and producing code all you know like he's producing code all you know like he's producing code all you know like he's thinking about this the data strategy thinking about this the data strategy thinking about this the data strategy for an organization but still we talk for an organization but still we talk for an organization but still we talk about like how long before

about like how long before about like how long before AI is really good at that those so AI is really good at that those so AI is really good at that those so yeah so anything analytical yeah so anything analytical yeah so anything analytical and that could be like investments right and that could be like investments right and that could be like investments right yes yes yes AI is probably going to be better at AI is probably going to be better at AI is probably going to be better at analyzing the markets than than a top analyzing the markets than than a top analyzing the markets than than a top professional Um, it goes to law. A lot professional Um, it goes to law. A lot professional Um, it goes to law. A lot of people are talking about entry-level of people are talking about entry-level of people are talking about entry-level law jobs disappearing because a lot of law jobs disappearing because a lot of law jobs disappearing because a lot of it is just moving words on a page and it is just moving words on a page and it is just moving words on a page and boiler plates and that kind of thing. boiler plates and that kind of thing. boiler plates and that kind of thing. Yes. So, so for sure there's the the Yes. So, so for sure there's the the Yes. So, so for sure there's the the people who do that sort of analytical people who do that sort of analytical people who do that sort of analytical work I think first are at risk and then work I think first are at risk and then work I think first are at risk and then there's the people who manage that who there's the people who manage that who there's the people who manage that who actually like deploy the we need a actually like deploy the we need a actually like deploy the we need a report on this. We need like this for report on this. We need like this for report on this. We need like this for the client and it should look like that. the client and it should look like that. the client and it should look like that. But I think that's coming next perhaps But I think that's coming next perhaps But I think that's coming next perhaps with agentic AI with AI doing all the with agentic AI with AI doing all the with agentic AI with AI doing all the work for you. work for you. work for you. I think so because AI I think will just I think so because AI I think will just I think so because AI I think will just get more it'll move from like functional get more it'll move from like functional get more it'll move from like functional replacement to strategic replacement. replacement to strategic replacement. replacement to strategic replacement. So instead of saying um or like an easy So instead of saying um or like an easy So instead of saying um or like an easy example is like right now you can say example is like right now you can say example is like right now you can say like make me this app that does these like make me this app that does these like make me this app that does these things. The next wave of that is what things. The next wave of that is what things. The next wave of that is what app should I make based on like what app should I make based on like what app should I make based on like what people need and trends and what you know people need and trends and what you know people need and trends and what you know and so when you get to that strategic and so when you get to that strategic and so when you get to that strategic level that's the new level of scary level that's the new level of scary level that's the new level of scary and then frankly like I'm also worried and then frankly like I'm also worried and then frankly like I'm also worried about creative professions so like about creative professions so like about creative professions so like marketing or communications marketing or communications marketing or communications um I mean I think um I mean I think um I mean I think Facebook in 2026 is all AI ads Facebook in 2026 is all AI ads Facebook in 2026 is all AI ads and with the latest from Google and VO

and with the latest from Google and VO and with the latest from Google and VO like you can't tell the difference like you can't tell the difference like you can't tell the difference between AI now in real life. So, actors, between AI now in real life. So, actors, between AI now in real life. So, actors, creatives, writers, you know, I could creatives, writers, you know, I could creatives, writers, you know, I could sit here, I haven't done it, but I could sit here, I haven't done it, but I could sit here, I haven't done it, but I could use that software to produce a killer use that software to produce a killer use that software to produce a killer video and then what happens? video and then what happens? video and then what happens? And, you know, ad agencies, um, even in And, you know, ad agencies, um, even in And, you know, ad agencies, um, even in a church like Social Media Manager, a church like Social Media Manager, a church like Social Media Manager, that's now a series of prompts or, you that's now a series of prompts or, you that's now a series of prompts or, you know, one of our partners, church.te, know, one of our partners, church.te, know, one of our partners, church.te, etc., just takes that over with some etc., just takes that over with some etc., just takes that over with some prompts, slices and dices your message prompts, slices and dices your message prompts, slices and dices your message for you. It's all done by AI, which is for you. It's all done by AI, which is for you. It's all done by AI, which is great because you still need someone to great because you still need someone to great because you still need someone to run it, but like it's going to be very run it, but like it's going to be very run it, but like it's going to be very different. So that goes back to the main different. So that goes back to the main different. So that goes back to the main because we could do 17 hours on this. because we could do 17 hours on this. because we could do 17 hours on this. I'm literally writing a book on this I'm literally writing a book on this I'm literally writing a book on this right now. So we'll see if it comes out. right now. So we'll see if it comes out. right now. So we'll see if it comes out. I'll see what you know what pops out in I'll see what you know what pops out in I'll see what you know what pops out in a few months when I'm done. I'm thinking a few months when I'm done. I'm thinking a few months when I'm done. I'm thinking about I'm obsessed with this. I'm about I'm obsessed with this. I'm about I'm obsessed with this. I'm thinking about it day and night and thinking about it day and night and thinking about it day and night and drives my team crazy right now because drives my team crazy right now because drives my team crazy right now because I'm so obsessed with it. But I'm trying I'm so obsessed with it. But I'm trying I'm so obsessed with it. But I'm trying to figure it out and I think the church to figure it out and I think the church to figure it out and I think the church has a role to play. But that goes back has a role to play. But that goes back has a role to play. But that goes back to the earlier thing that you said. How to the earlier thing that you said. How to the earlier thing that you said. How do you humanize work? do you humanize work? do you humanize work? Is it the difference between buying Is it the difference between buying Is it the difference between buying greenhouse grown carrots and going to greenhouse grown carrots and going to greenhouse grown carrots and going to the farmers market?

the farmers market? the farmers market? Because not everybody can afford to go Because not everybody can afford to go Because not everybody can afford to go to the farmers market, right? to the farmers market, right? to the farmers market, right? Particularly where there's mass Particularly where there's mass Particularly where there's mass unemployment. But when we're thinking unemployment. But when we're thinking unemployment. But when we're thinking about the jobs and the touches that are about the jobs and the touches that are about the jobs and the touches that are going to inform our work in the future, going to inform our work in the future, going to inform our work in the future, also understanding we have no idea what also understanding we have no idea what also understanding we have no idea what AI is going to produce 6 months from AI is going to produce 6 months from AI is going to produce 6 months from now, let alone 6 years from now. But now, let alone 6 years from now. But now, let alone 6 years from now. But what are your initial thoughts anyway or what are your initial thoughts anyway or what are your initial thoughts anyway or current thoughts on humanizing work? current thoughts on humanizing work? current thoughts on humanizing work? Because I think us humans, we were Because I think us humans, we were Because I think us humans, we were designed in my faith perspective by God designed in my faith perspective by God designed in my faith perspective by God for a purpose and that purpose has for a purpose and that purpose has for a purpose and that purpose has something to do with creating. something to do with creating. something to do with creating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, yeah. You know, yeah. You know, yeah. I will always believe that I will always believe that I will always believe that a human day matters. So that's sort of a human day matters. So that's sort of a human day matters. So that's sort of like where I start from in all of this. like where I start from in all of this. like where I start from in all of this. Like Like Like human days have value. And it's sort of human days have value. And it's sort of human days have value. And it's sort of weird that we forget that, you know, weird that we forget that, you know, weird that we forget that, you know, like we we remember that acutely at the like we we remember that acutely at the like we we remember that acutely at the end of life when you're like an end of life when you're like an end of life when you're like an oncologist is trying to save more days oncologist is trying to save more days oncologist is trying to save more days for a cancer patient or you're trying to for a cancer patient or you're trying to for a cancer patient or you're trying to extend life. But we forget that in extend life. But we forget that in extend life. But we forget that in health we also throw away our days that health we also throw away our days that health we also throw away our days that we we're like just trying to get through we we're like just trying to get through we we're like just trying to get through the week, move through the motions, like the week, move through the motions, like the week, move through the motions, like just get get through it. And so if we just get get through it. And so if we just get get through it. And so if we start from the premise that our days start from the premise that our days start from the premise that our days really matter, that one human day on really matter, that one human day on really matter, that one human day on this planet is a beautiful thing that this planet is a beautiful thing that this planet is a beautiful thing that shouldn't be wasted. From that premise shouldn't be wasted. From that premise shouldn't be wasted. From that premise then comes then comes then comes how do you want to show up as a human at how do you want to show up as a human at how do you want to show up as a human at work and how do you feel most alive,

work and how do you feel most alive, work and how do you feel most alive, most human in a workplace both in terms most human in a workplace both in terms most human in a workplace both in terms of of of like your experience of the day and in like your experience of the day and in like your experience of the day and in terms of what you produce. So terms of what you produce. So terms of what you produce. So experience-wise, like I feel most alive experience-wise, like I feel most alive experience-wise, like I feel most alive when I'm hanging out with people who I when I'm hanging out with people who I when I'm hanging out with people who I think are smart and funny and we're think are smart and funny and we're think are smart and funny and we're laughing. Like I would always want that laughing. Like I would always want that laughing. Like I would always want that to be true. I do not want to have a to be true. I do not want to have a to be true. I do not want to have a bunch of agents as co-workers even if bunch of agents as co-workers even if bunch of agents as co-workers even if they can like spew out dad jokes or like they can like spew out dad jokes or like they can like spew out dad jokes or like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like that artificiality like I You know, like that artificiality like I You know, like that artificiality like I I value the human connections around me. I value the human connections around me. I value the human connections around me. So there's sort of that sort of question So there's sort of that sort of question So there's sort of that sort of question of how do you humanize the work and of how do you humanize the work and of how do you humanize the work and that's a whole other train of thinking that's a whole other train of thinking that's a whole other train of thinking of can we get rid of this sort of like of can we get rid of this sort of like of can we get rid of this sort of like performative professionalism and needing performative professionalism and needing performative professionalism and needing to be all buttoned up and like um you to be all buttoned up and like um you to be all buttoned up and like um you know back to my questions about like know back to my questions about like know back to my questions about like what's your middle name you know those what's your middle name you know those what's your middle name you know those sort of humanizing things but then on sort of humanizing things but then on sort of humanizing things but then on the other end it's like the things that the other end it's like the things that the other end it's like the things that we create there is so much pride in we create there is so much pride in we create there is so much pride in creation and I like I think of creation and I like I think of creation and I like I think of businesses it's a little poetic to say businesses it's a little poetic to say businesses it's a little poetic to say but businesses are just selfexpression but businesses are just selfexpression but businesses are just selfexpression at scale like any business is expressing at scale like any business is expressing at scale like any business is expressing a point of view on the world. I think a point of view on the world. I think a point of view on the world. I think the world should be more like this and the world should be more like this and the world should be more like this and therefore we are making it so therefore we are making it so therefore we are making it so and and that comes from humans that and and that comes from humans that and and that comes from humans that comes from a human belief a human comes from a human belief a human comes from a human belief a human self-expression I mean even a bank is self-expression I mean even a bank is self-expression I mean even a bank is like I believe people should have a like I believe people should have a like I believe people should have a secure place to put their money like secure place to put their money like secure place to put their money like that's a belief right and so you try to

that's a belief right and so you try to that's a belief right and so you try to make that more true and so the more that make that more true and so the more that make that more true and so the more that we can lean into that that sort of we can lean into that that sort of we can lean into that that sort of self-expression of self-expression of self-expression of I think the the better and AI can help I think the the better and AI can help I think the the better and AI can help like patch the holes and do some of the like patch the holes and do some of the like patch the holes and do some of the things that we don't want to do. But things that we don't want to do. But things that we don't want to do. But still fundamentally I would hope that still fundamentally I would hope that still fundamentally I would hope that forever the humans are in charge of the forever the humans are in charge of the forever the humans are in charge of the world we want to build that we are still world we want to build that we are still world we want to build that we are still the ones the ones the ones imagining what the good life looks like imagining what the good life looks like imagining what the good life looks like and then maybe deploying some agents to and then maybe deploying some agents to and then maybe deploying some agents to help us get there. help us get there. help us get there. Yeah. But, you know, if if we don't at Yeah. But, you know, if if we don't at Yeah. But, you know, if if we don't at least have that, then, you know, then least have that, then, you know, then least have that, then, you know, then we've lost to the robots. And we've lost to the robots. And we've lost to the robots. And well, you're taking us back to Genesis well, you're taking us back to Genesis well, you're taking us back to Genesis 1. That is kind of the mandate. That's a 1. That is kind of the mandate. That's a 1. That is kind of the mandate. That's a really good thought. really good thought. really good thought. If you could hand every leader a sticky If you could hand every leader a sticky If you could hand every leader a sticky note to put on their laptop, to put on note to put on their laptop, to put on note to put on their laptop, to put on their computer, what would it say? their computer, what would it say? their computer, what would it say? You know, I actually I made some You know, I actually I made some You know, I actually I made some stickers for the book. We made some stickers for the book. We made some stickers for the book. We made some swag, so I actually have an answer. swag, so I actually have an answer. swag, so I actually have an answer. I love it. You're already ahead of me.

I love it. You're already ahead of me. I love it. You're already ahead of me. Yeah. Um, so there's one there's one Yeah. Um, so there's one there's one Yeah. Um, so there's one there's one sticker. It says good laughs with good sticker. It says good laughs with good sticker. It says good laughs with good people. people. people. And this comes from a story um I tell um And this comes from a story um I tell um And this comes from a story um I tell um in the book that I wrote. I was at this in the book that I wrote. I was at this in the book that I wrote. I was at this rehab facility with my mom. She had had rehab facility with my mom. She had had rehab facility with my mom. She had had this complex ankle surgery. She was like this complex ankle surgery. She was like this complex ankle surgery. She was like needed to be somewhere where they could needed to be somewhere where they could needed to be somewhere where they could care for her. Anyway, we'd go there care for her. Anyway, we'd go there care for her. Anyway, we'd go there every day, my dad and I, to visit and every day, my dad and I, to visit and every day, my dad and I, to visit and they would often have a performer there they would often have a performer there they would often have a performer there to sort of like boost morale to sort of like boost morale to sort of like boost morale and one day the performer was doing old and one day the performer was doing old and one day the performer was doing old Sinatra classics and one of them was the Sinatra classics and one of them was the Sinatra classics and one of them was the song My Way and it's like taking song My Way and it's like taking song My Way and it's like taking everybody back and and he ends that set everybody back and and he ends that set everybody back and and he ends that set by saying, by saying, by saying, "What more could you want in life than "What more could you want in life than "What more could you want in life than to have had some good laughs with good to have had some good laughs with good to have had some good laughs with good people? people? people? And I'm looking around this room. And I'm looking around this room. And I'm looking around this room. I mean, it was like my mom was in her I mean, it was like my mom was in her I mean, it was like my mom was in her 60s, but she was sort of the younger end 60s, but she was sort of the younger end 60s, but she was sort of the younger end of the clientele, you know, and everyone of the clientele, you know, and everyone of the clientele, you know, and everyone is like, "Yes, yes." And I'm like is like, "Yes, yes." And I'm like is like, "Yes, yes." And I'm like starting to cry. And I'm like that. It's starting to cry. And I'm like that. It's starting to cry. And I'm like that. It's so beautiful. And it's not I don't mean so beautiful. And it's not I don't mean so beautiful. And it's not I don't mean that those words is a call to hedonism.

that those words is a call to hedonism. that those words is a call to hedonism. It's not like, oh, you just want to like It's not like, oh, you just want to like It's not like, oh, you just want to like sit around and laugh, you know? It's sit around and laugh, you know? It's sit around and laugh, you know? It's honoring that honoring that honoring that the most beautiful parts of our lives the most beautiful parts of our lives the most beautiful parts of our lives are the connections we have with other are the connections we have with other are the connections we have with other humans and the work, you know, that we humans and the work, you know, that we humans and the work, you know, that we can do in the world shouldn't can do in the world shouldn't can do in the world shouldn't we don't need to equate struggle with we don't need to equate struggle with we don't need to equate struggle with greatness. That actually greatness. That actually greatness. That actually enjoying our days on this planet, enjoying our days on this planet, enjoying our days on this planet, serving other people, laughing with serving other people, laughing with serving other people, laughing with other people, that's like a that's a other people, that's like a that's a other people, that's like a that's a really really good use of a human life. really really good use of a human life. really really good use of a human life. And so And so And so it is actually. And so I I have that it is actually. And so I I have that it is actually. And so I I have that little sticker, good laughs with good little sticker, good laughs with good little sticker, good laughs with good people, as a reminder to like, you know, people, as a reminder to like, you know, people, as a reminder to like, you know, when you're texting at 9:00 p.m. like, when you're texting at 9:00 p.m. like, when you're texting at 9:00 p.m. like, "Oh, did we forget to do this thing for "Oh, did we forget to do this thing for "Oh, did we forget to do this thing for tomorrow?" It's just a reflection. Did tomorrow?" It's just a reflection. Did tomorrow?" It's just a reflection. Did you have some good laughs with good you have some good laughs with good you have some good laughs with good people today? And if not, hey, you're people today? And if not, hey, you're people today? And if not, hey, you're not going to get it every day. Try again not going to get it every day. Try again not going to get it every day. Try again tomorrow. tomorrow. tomorrow. Yeah, I think fun might become I mean, Yeah, I think fun might become I mean, Yeah, I think fun might become I mean, you still got to be profitable or, you you still got to be profitable or, you you still got to be profitable or, you know, solvent, but fun will be a big know, solvent, but fun will be a big know, solvent, but fun will be a big attractor in the future economy. I think attractor in the future economy. I think attractor in the future economy. I think the things that make us different uh the things that make us different uh the things that make us different uh rather than the same. What's one rather than the same. What's one rather than the same. What's one question no one's asked you yet about question no one's asked you yet about question no one's asked you yet about work that you wish they would ask you?

I guess you could ask me what my first I guess you could ask me what my first job was. job was. job was. What was your first job? Let's go there. What was your first job? Let's go there. What was your first job? Let's go there. That's great. That's great. That's great. Um I worked in a magic show. I was Um I worked in a magic show. I was Um I worked in a magic show. I was really really really Yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah. Uhhuh. How did that happen? And how old were How did that happen? And how old were How did that happen? And how old were you? you? you? Um so I was 18. This was the summer Um so I was 18. This was the summer Um so I was 18. This was the summer before college. Actually, that wasn't before college. Actually, that wasn't before college. Actually, that wasn't actually my first. My first job, I actually my first. My first job, I actually my first. My first job, I worked in a doctor's office filing worked in a doctor's office filing worked in a doctor's office filing patient. So, that's not this one. This patient. So, that's not this one. This patient. So, that's not this one. This is the more fun answer. is the more fun answer. is the more fun answer. Um, yeah. So, I was always a dancer Um, yeah. So, I was always a dancer Um, yeah. So, I was always a dancer growing up. I did ballet and jazz. And growing up. I did ballet and jazz. And growing up. I did ballet and jazz. And so, there was an opening for a dancer so, there was an opening for a dancer so, there was an opening for a dancer assistant for a magic show at Six Flags, assistant for a magic show at Six Flags, assistant for a magic show at Six Flags, Great America, outside of Chicago. And I Great America, outside of Chicago. And I Great America, outside of Chicago. And I was like, "Yeah, I want to do that." So, was like, "Yeah, I want to do that." So, was like, "Yeah, I want to do that." So, we did five shows a day. I learned all we did five shows a day. I learned all we did five shows a day. I learned all the tricks. We like made a NASCAR appear the tricks. We like made a NASCAR appear the tricks. We like made a NASCAR appear and you know and you know and you know big time magic. big time magic. big time magic. Yeah, it was it was really cool. There Yeah, it was it was really cool. There Yeah, it was it was really cool. There were smoke and mirrors and everything were smoke and mirrors and everything were smoke and mirrors and everything and um and it was a great day at work. and um and it was a great day at work. and um and it was a great day at work. That sounds like fun. I saw an That sounds like fun. I saw an That sounds like fun. I saw an illusionist earlier this year and or illusionist earlier this year and or illusionist earlier this year and or mentalist I guess he calls himself and mentalist I guess he calls himself and mentalist I guess he calls himself and it was mindblowing what he did. Like it was mindblowing what he did. Like it was mindblowing what he did. Like really amazing. That's always interested really amazing. That's always interested really amazing. That's always interested me. It's like hey that could be a fun me. It's like hey that could be a fun me. It's like hey that could be a fun little hobby you know that's great. So little hobby you know that's great. So little hobby you know that's great. So that was your first job. And now that I that was your first job. And now that I that was your first job. And now that I think about it, like illusionist, that's think about it, like illusionist, that's think about it, like illusionist, that's a job that AI is probably not going to a job that AI is probably not going to a job that AI is probably not going to take, you know. So if you're looking for take, you know. So if you're looking for take, you know. So if you're looking for a backup career, you know, a backup career, you know, a backup career, you know, illusionist.

illusionist. illusionist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Well, your book is called Today Great. Well, your book is called Today Great. Well, your book is called Today Was Fun. It is a fun book. Bri, where Was Fun. It is a fun book. Bri, where Was Fun. It is a fun book. Bri, where can people find more about you and your can people find more about you and your can people find more about you and your book online? book online? book online? Yes, you can get it anywhere books are Yes, you can get it anywhere books are Yes, you can get it anywhere books are sold. For more about me, my website is sold. For more about me, my website is sold. For more about me, my website is brief.com or b reeg grf.com. brief.com or b reeg grf.com. brief.com or b reeg grf.com. And from there you can find my substack And from there you can find my substack And from there you can find my substack to order the book um or find me on to order the book um or find me on to order the book um or find me on LinkedIn. LinkedIn. LinkedIn. That's awesome. Bri, this has been That's awesome. Bri, this has been That's awesome. Bri, this has been really helpful. You helped a lot of really helpful. You helped a lot of really helpful. You helped a lot of leaders today. Thank you for joining us. leaders today. Thank you for joining us. leaders today. Thank you for joining us. Oh, thank you for having me. It was Oh, thank you for having me. It was Oh, thank you for having me. It was indeed a lot of fun.