The Case Against Complementarianism That's Harder to Dismiss

I was never really impressed with the I was never really impressed with the egalitarian arguments I'd see. Just the egalitarian arguments I'd see. Just the egalitarian arguments I'd see. Just the ones that kind of came across in ones that kind of came across in ones that kind of came across in passing. They're like, "Well, Mary passing. They're like, "Well, Mary passing. They're like, "Well, Mary Magdalene, you know, she Magdalene, you know, she Magdalene, you know, she preached the resurrection. She's the preached the resurrection. She's the preached the resurrection. She's the apostle to the apostles." And I'm like, apostle to the apostles." And I'm like, apostle to the apostles." And I'm like, "Well, "Well, "Well, I don't know a single complementarian I don't know a single complementarian I don't know a single complementarian who says, 'No, women can't talk about who says, 'No, women can't talk about who says, 'No, women can't talk about the resurrection in front of men.' Like, the resurrection in front of men.' Like, the resurrection in front of men.' Like, I I said that I don't I I said that I don't I I said that I don't I don't think that's what they were I don't think that's what they were I don't think that's what they were saying. And well, you know, Jesus really saying. And well, you know, Jesus really saying. And well, you know, Jesus really valued women. And like, of course, Don valued women. And like, of course, Don valued women. And like, of course, Don leaders are valued, too, you know? That leaders are valued, too, you know? That leaders are valued, too, you know? That doesn't mean doesn't mean doesn't mean they should be ordained or whatever. they should be ordained or whatever. they should be ordained or whatever. But when I looked deeper into it But when I looked deeper into it But when I looked deeper into it >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. We're going to have a today. We're going to have a today. We're going to have a conversation that I think is meaningful conversation that I think is meaningful conversation that I think is meaningful on two levels. First of all, we are on two levels. First of all, we are on two levels. First of all, we are going to talk about women in leadership. going to talk about women in leadership. going to talk about women in leadership. This is something you asked for. We This is something you asked for. We This is something you asked for. We identified it as a trend that women are identified it as a trend that women are identified it as a trend that women are leaving the church. And so, we want to leaving the church. And so, we want to leaving the church. And so, we want to talk about women in leadership. And I've talk about women in leadership. And I've talk about women in leadership. And I've got a guest today who actually changed got a guest today who actually changed got a guest today who actually changed his mind on the subject. He grew up his mind on the subject. He grew up his mind on the subject. He grew up complementarian. Um but really studied complementarian. Um but really studied complementarian. Um but really studied the scripture and said, "Uh, maybe maybe the scripture and said, "Uh, maybe maybe the scripture and said, "Uh, maybe maybe I was wrong." Now, he did the same thing I was wrong." Now, he did the same thing I was wrong." Now, he did the same thing for sexuality and concluded that a for sexuality and concluded that a for sexuality and concluded that a historic understanding of sexuality and historic understanding of sexuality and historic understanding of sexuality and gender is something that the Bible gender is something that the Bible gender is something that the Bible teaches. So, you know, this is not teaches. So, you know, this is not teaches. So, you know, this is not somebody who's just going left or somebody who's just going left or somebody who's just going left or turning woke or anything like that. Dr.

turning woke or anything like that. Dr. turning woke or anything like that. Dr. Preston Sprinkle is going to be a really Preston Sprinkle is going to be a really Preston Sprinkle is going to be a really fascinating host. But the second thing, fascinating host. But the second thing, fascinating host. But the second thing, and probably the deeper reason I'm even and probably the deeper reason I'm even and probably the deeper reason I'm even more excited to bring you this more excited to bring you this more excited to bring you this conversation, is because his project on conversation, is because his project on conversation, is because his project on women in leadership really shows women in leadership really shows women in leadership really shows openness. And I think that's lacking in openness. And I think that's lacking in openness. And I think that's lacking in the church dialogue today. I think more the church dialogue today. I think more the church dialogue today. I think more and more people are just like, "Here's and more people are just like, "Here's and more people are just like, "Here's what I believe. I'm going to find all what I believe. I'm going to find all what I believe. I'm going to find all the evidence I possibly can to support the evidence I possibly can to support the evidence I possibly can to support my belief." And Preston Sprinkle is my belief." And Preston Sprinkle is my belief." And Preston Sprinkle is willing to be wrong. And not wrong willing to be wrong. And not wrong willing to be wrong. And not wrong because culture says something, but because culture says something, but because culture says something, but wrong because perhaps his understanding wrong because perhaps his understanding wrong because perhaps his understanding of scripture was incorrect, which I of scripture was incorrect, which I of scripture was incorrect, which I think as a Christian is really think as a Christian is really think as a Christian is really important. So, I am excited to bring you important. So, I am excited to bring you important. So, I am excited to bring you that conversation for those reasons and that conversation for those reasons and that conversation for those reasons and more. And I would encourage you to more. And I would encourage you to more. And I would encourage you to listen to the end before you drop a listen to the end before you drop a listen to the end before you drop a comment. Don't just take your comment. Don't just take your comment. Don't just take your preconceived views, either pro-women in preconceived views, either pro-women in preconceived views, either pro-women in leadership or a complementarian view, leadership or a complementarian view, leadership or a complementarian view, and drop them into the comments without and drop them into the comments without and drop them into the comments without listening to this conversation. Deal? listening to this conversation. Deal? listening to this conversation. Deal? Okay, that sounds good. Well, Preston Okay, that sounds good. Well, Preston Okay, that sounds good. Well, Preston Sprinkle is a biblical scholar, a Sprinkle is a biblical scholar, a Sprinkle is a biblical scholar, a speaker, podcaster, New York Times speaker, podcaster, New York Times speaker, podcaster, New York Times best-selling author, and the co-founder best-selling author, and the co-founder best-selling author, and the co-founder and president of the Center for Faith, and president of the Center for Faith, and president of the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender. He is also the Sexuality, and Gender. He is also the Sexuality, and Gender. He is also the president of Theology in the Raw and president of Theology in the Raw and president of Theology in the Raw and hosts the popular Theology in the Raw hosts the popular Theology in the Raw hosts the popular Theology in the Raw podcast. So, think you'll really enjoy podcast. So, think you'll really enjoy podcast. So, think you'll really enjoy this. Let's go into my conversation with this. Let's go into my conversation with this. Let's go into my conversation with Dr. Preston Sprinkle. Well, Preston, I'm Dr. Preston Sprinkle. Well, Preston, I'm Dr. Preston Sprinkle. Well, Preston, I'm glad we finally connected. Thanks for glad we finally connected. Thanks for glad we finally connected. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

coming on the podcast. coming on the podcast. >> Thanks for having me on, Carey. I'm >> Thanks for having me on, Carey. I'm >> Thanks for having me on, Carey. I'm honored to be here. I've been a fan for honored to be here. I've been a fan for honored to be here. I've been a fan for a long time, so excited to be with you. a long time, so excited to be with you. a long time, so excited to be with you. >> Well, I'm glad we've connected, and you >> Well, I'm glad we've connected, and you >> Well, I'm glad we've connected, and you really surprised me. I got your book and really surprised me. I got your book and really surprised me. I got your book and on women in leadership, on women in leadership, on women in leadership, and I thought, "Wow, an actual inductive and I thought, "Wow, an actual inductive and I thought, "Wow, an actual inductive journey." Like, you don't really find journey." Like, you don't really find journey." Like, you don't really find that today in the intellectual circles that today in the intellectual circles that today in the intellectual circles in the church. I mean, you do in in the church. I mean, you do in in the church. I mean, you do in academic work, but in more popularly academic work, but in more popularly academic work, but in more popularly consumed work. And so, I'd love you to consumed work. And so, I'd love you to consumed work. And so, I'd love you to back up the story a little bit. Tell us back up the story a little bit. Tell us back up the story a little bit. Tell us how you were raised, because one of the how you were raised, because one of the how you were raised, because one of the big debates or discussions in the church big debates or discussions in the church big debates or discussions in the church is complementarian versus egalitarian is complementarian versus egalitarian is complementarian versus egalitarian leadership, right? Do men and women leadership, right? Do men and women leadership, right? Do men and women complement each other? Are they equal in complement each other? Are they equal in complement each other? Are they equal in the sense that either can fulfill any the sense that either can fulfill any the sense that either can fulfill any office or role, etc., etc. And it's office or role, etc., etc. And it's office or role, etc., etc. And it's still an issue that we talk about on still an issue that we talk about on still an issue that we talk about on this podcast from time to time, but I this podcast from time to time, but I this podcast from time to time, but I was really impressed with your work, was really impressed with your work, was really impressed with your work, wanted to have this conversation. So, wanted to have this conversation. So, wanted to have this conversation. So, let's back up the bus let's back up the bus let's back up the bus to your childhood. How were you raised? to your childhood. How were you raised? to your childhood. How were you raised? Were you raised with a particular Were you raised with a particular Were you raised with a particular viewpoint around that? viewpoint around that? viewpoint around that? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was raised in a really >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was raised in a really >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was raised in a really strong complementarian context. I mean, strong complementarian context. I mean, strong complementarian context. I mean, I went to John MacArthur's college and I went to John MacArthur's college and I went to John MacArthur's college and seminary, and seminary, and seminary, and >> Oh, so that's about Yep, there you go.

>> Oh, so that's about Yep, there you go. >> Oh, so that's about Yep, there you go. >> as complementarian as as you can get. >> as complementarian as as you can get. >> as complementarian as as you can get. You know, that view made perfect sense You know, that view made perfect sense You know, that view made perfect sense to me. It was To me, it was just that's to me. It was To me, it was just that's to me. It was To me, it was just that's what the Bible says. And, you know, I'd what the Bible says. And, you know, I'd what the Bible says. And, you know, I'd read 1 Timothy 2, and it seemed to say read 1 Timothy 2, and it seemed to say read 1 Timothy 2, and it seemed to say that, and other passages, and 12 male that, and other passages, and 12 male that, and other passages, and 12 male apostles, and that was the environment I apostles, and that was the environment I apostles, and that was the environment I grew up in, and that was the lens grew up in, and that was the lens grew up in, and that was the lens through which I read scripture, and it through which I read scripture, and it through which I read scripture, and it made sense to me. But, as I got older made sense to me. But, as I got older made sense to me. But, as I got older and and and, you know, over the years in and and and, you know, over the years in and and and, you know, over the years in ministry and and teaching in colleges, ministry and and teaching in colleges, ministry and and teaching in colleges, you know, I'm I'm getting to know other you know, I'm I'm getting to know other you know, I'm I'm getting to know other scholars who also love the Bible, scholars who also love the Bible, scholars who also love the Bible, also love Jesus, and and and didn't hold also love Jesus, and and and didn't hold also love Jesus, and and and didn't hold to that view. And I'm like, well, to that view. And I'm like, well, to that view. And I'm like, well, they're they're they're they're offering faithful they're offering faithful they're offering faithful interpretations of the text on other interpretations of the text on other interpretations of the text on other issues. Like, what are they What are issues. Like, what are they What are issues. Like, what are they What are they seeing that I haven't been told they seeing that I haven't been told they seeing that I haven't been told yet? And so, every time I wanted to dig yet? And so, every time I wanted to dig yet? And so, every time I wanted to dig into the issue, I just got overwhelmed into the issue, I just got overwhelmed into the issue, I just got overwhelmed with the pile of literature that's been with the pile of literature that's been with the pile of literature that's been written on it. I said, "Oh, I need to I written on it. I said, "Oh, I need to I written on it. I said, "Oh, I need to I need to wait until I have some time to need to wait until I have some time to need to wait until I have some time to really wade through this this issue as really wade through this this issue as really wade through this this issue as thoroughly as I can before I can say for thoroughly as I can before I can say for thoroughly as I can before I can say for myself, here's what I think the Bible myself, here's what I think the Bible myself, here's what I think the Bible says." So, so I I kind of pled the says." So, so I I kind of pled the says." So, so I I kind of pled the fifth. I I just said, "I don't know what fifth. I I just said, "I don't know what fifth. I I just said, "I don't know what I think." Up until last few years when I I think." Up until last few years when I I think." Up until last few years when I got some time to dig in and and devote got some time to dig in and and devote got some time to dig in and and devote uh uh uh a a sub- substantial amount of time to a a sub- substantial amount of time to a a sub- substantial amount of time to to researching it. And so, that's The to researching it. And so, that's The to researching it. And so, that's The book begins with that journey. I begin I book begins with that journey. I begin I book begins with that journey. I begin I don't begin with a conclusion because I don't begin with a conclusion because I don't begin with a conclusion because I didn't have one. I didn't know where I didn't have one. I didn't know where I didn't have one. I didn't know where I was going to was going to was going to >> this in real time. This is sort of come >> this in real time. This is sort of come >> this in real time. This is sort of come with me as I try to figure this out.

with me as I try to figure this out. with me as I try to figure this out. >> Right. Yeah. And I didn't have a leaning >> Right. Yeah. And I didn't have a leaning >> Right. Yeah. And I didn't have a leaning one way or another. I I'm very one way or another. I I'm very one way or another. I I'm very centered on the Bible. Like, if God said centered on the Bible. Like, if God said centered on the Bible. Like, if God said only men can be leaders, and God said only men can be leaders, and God said only men can be leaders, and God said it, and I believe it, and that settles it, and I believe it, and that settles it, and I believe it, and that settles it, as my grandma said, you know? Or if, it, as my grandma said, you know? Or if, it, as my grandma said, you know? Or if, you know, I these passages have not been you know, I these passages have not been you know, I these passages have not been interpreted interpreted interpreted correctly, you know, in terms of the the correctly, you know, in terms of the the correctly, you know, in terms of the the so-called traditional view, then then go so-called traditional view, then then go so-called traditional view, then then go with what the text says. So, that's with what the text says. So, that's with what the text says. So, that's that's the spirit in which I started. that's the spirit in which I started. that's the spirit in which I started. >> Yeah, it's interesting to me because, >> Yeah, it's interesting to me because, >> Yeah, it's interesting to me because, you know, you know, you know, I I want to dig a little bit deeper I I want to dig a little bit deeper I I want to dig a little bit deeper because we live in an age where people because we live in an age where people because we live in an age where people tend not to be open-minded, or tend not to be open-minded, or tend not to be open-minded, or open-mindedness is a sign of open-mindedness is a sign of open-mindedness is a sign of unfaithfulness. You know, as soon as unfaithfulness. You know, as soon as unfaithfulness. You know, as soon as your child starts to rethink things or your child starts to rethink things or your child starts to rethink things or read from a different stream, a lot of read from a different stream, a lot of read from a different stream, a lot of parents panic. It's like, "This is what parents panic. It's like, "This is what parents panic. It's like, "This is what we taught you." And it's almost a badge we taught you." And it's almost a badge we taught you." And it's almost a badge of honor as in this is where I sit on of honor as in this is where I sit on of honor as in this is where I sit on the ideological theological spectrum and the ideological theological spectrum and the ideological theological spectrum and I'm not budging. And now all of my I'm not budging. And now all of my I'm not budging. And now all of my evidence supports my current view. evidence supports my current view. evidence supports my current view. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> What are the problems with that as you >> What are the problems with that as you >> What are the problems with that as you see it? see it? see it? >> I think it's profoundly unbiblical and >> I think it's profoundly unbiblical and >> I think it's profoundly unbiblical and it goes against the spirit of the it goes against the spirit of the it goes against the spirit of the reformers who were not just reformed but reformers who were not just reformed but reformers who were not just reformed but as the saying goes always reforming. We as the saying goes always reforming. We as the saying goes always reforming. We because the text is central and because because the text is central and because because the text is central and because we are fallible, we need to consistently we are fallible, we need to consistently we are fallible, we need to consistently be bringing our be bringing our be bringing our previously held views back to the text previously held views back to the text previously held views back to the text of scripture to see if these things are of scripture to see if these things are of scripture to see if these things are so. So, yeah, people that are scared I so. So, yeah, people that are scared I so. So, yeah, people that are scared I mean yeah, being open-minded doesn't mean yeah, being open-minded doesn't mean yeah, being open-minded doesn't mean just believe whatever latest thing mean just believe whatever latest thing mean just believe whatever latest thing you hear. It means I because I believe you hear. It means I because I believe you hear. It means I because I believe in the authority of scripture, I'm going in the authority of scripture, I'm going in the authority of scripture, I'm going to keep testing, keep testing, keep

to keep testing, keep testing, keep to keep testing, keep testing, keep bringing my views back to the text of bringing my views back to the text of bringing my views back to the text of scripture. So, I think that's the the scripture. So, I think that's the the scripture. So, I think that's the the way Christians should go about being way Christians should go about being way Christians should go about being biblically centered. biblically centered. biblically centered. >> Although you know, I'd probably call >> Although you know, I'd probably call >> Although you know, I'd probably call myself if you're like put yourself on a myself if you're like put yourself on a myself if you're like put yourself on a spectrum, I would be on the conservative spectrum, I would be on the conservative spectrum, I would be on the conservative side. Just that's probably where I fall. side. Just that's probably where I fall. side. Just that's probably where I fall. Some people might disagree with that Some people might disagree with that Some people might disagree with that because they have a particular because they have a particular because they have a particular understanding of conservatism or understanding of conservatism or understanding of conservatism or whatever. whatever. whatever. But I find as a as a conservative But I find as a as a conservative But I find as a as a conservative generally on most issues generally on most issues generally on most issues that sometimes there can almost be a that sometimes there can almost be a that sometimes there can almost be a fear of opening your mind. In other fear of opening your mind. In other fear of opening your mind. In other words, we're we're conservative because words, we're we're conservative because words, we're we're conservative because we're conserving the past, we're we're conserving the past, we're we're conserving the past, we're conserving what we believe, we're conserving what we believe, we're conserving what we believe, we're conserving orthodoxy, we're conserving conserving orthodoxy, we're conserving conserving orthodoxy, we're conserving all the things that are important to us all the things that are important to us all the things that are important to us and and and anybody who challenges that status quo anybody who challenges that status quo anybody who challenges that status quo is a threat. Um did you particularly is a threat. Um did you particularly is a threat. Um did you particularly growing up in MacArthur's world growing up in MacArthur's world growing up in MacArthur's world was that ever a factor for you or you was that ever a factor for you or you was that ever a factor for you or you just wired differently or did you see just wired differently or did you see just wired differently or did you see that? I'm curious. that? I'm curious. that? I'm curious. >> That's funny. That's a good question. >> That's funny. That's a good question. >> That's funny. That's a good question. That That That that environment and and like any that environment and and like any that environment and and like any environment there's environment there's environment there's pros and cons.

pros and cons. pros and cons. >> switch the name out. Okay? There's >> switch the name out. Okay? There's >> switch the name out. Okay? There's there's lot it's not I'm not picking on there's lot it's not I'm not picking on there's lot it's not I'm not picking on MacArthur. I'm just saying he's a good MacArthur. I'm just saying he's a good MacArthur. I'm just saying he's a good example. example. example. >> I But I I I'll speak honestly about my >> I But I I I'll speak honestly about my >> I But I I I'll speak honestly about my journey. I mean, journey. I mean, journey. I mean, um yeah there were there was that kind um yeah there were there was that kind um yeah there were there was that kind of fear um that, you know, the the of fear um that, you know, the the of fear um that, you know, the the conclusions that that environment came conclusions that that environment came conclusions that that environment came to, those are to, those are to, those are uh those are the biblical conclusions, uh those are the biblical conclusions, uh those are the biblical conclusions, and if you don't hold to those and if you don't hold to those and if you don't hold to those conclusions, you're not being biblical. conclusions, you're not being biblical. conclusions, you're not being biblical. But, you know, I I was so The reason why But, you know, I I was so The reason why But, you know, I I was so The reason why I wanted to study in that environment I wanted to study in that environment I wanted to study in that environment was because I believe so strongly in the was because I believe so strongly in the was because I believe so strongly in the authority of the scriptures. If the God authority of the scriptures. If the God authority of the scriptures. If the God breathed stars into existence, breathed breathed stars into existence, breathed breathed stars into existence, breathed out his word, then I want to orient my out his word, then I want to orient my out his word, then I want to orient my life around the Bible. And so, I life around the Bible. And so, I life around the Bible. And so, I um it's because they built in me this um it's because they built in me this um it's because they built in me this passion for the authority of scripture passion for the authority of scripture passion for the authority of scripture that I was excited to go where the text that I was excited to go where the text that I was excited to go where the text leads. And leads. And leads. And when I found myself, when I found myself, when I found myself, you know, agreeing you know, agreeing you know, agreeing with some things that they were teaching with some things that they were teaching with some things that they were teaching me and maybe starting to disagree with me and maybe starting to disagree with me and maybe starting to disagree with some things they were teaching me, it some things they were teaching me, it some things they were teaching me, it was all because of the text of was all because of the text of was all because of the text of scripture. So, I took the spirit, the scripture. So, I took the spirit, the scripture. So, I took the spirit, the core of what they core of what they core of what they built into me, but I ended up not, you built into me, but I ended up not, you built into me, but I ended up not, you know, landing on all the issues that know, landing on all the issues that know, landing on all the issues that they said I should land on. But, um so, they said I should land on. But, um so, they said I should land on. But, um so, yeah, it didn't Did it bother me? I yeah, it didn't Did it bother me? I yeah, it didn't Did it bother me? I don't think it did. And maybe I'm wired don't think it did. And maybe I'm wired don't think it did. And maybe I'm wired differently. I'm just I'm just I'm going differently. I'm just I'm just I'm going differently. I'm just I'm just I'm going to stand before God, not man, at the end to stand before God, not man, at the end to stand before God, not man, at the end of the day and say, you know, "Were you of the day and say, you know, "Were you of the day and say, you know, "Were you faithful? Did you rightly divide my faithful? Did you rightly divide my faithful? Did you rightly divide my word?" Not "Did you adhere to all the word?" Not "Did you adhere to all the word?" Not "Did you adhere to all the traditional or whatever viewpoints that traditional or whatever viewpoints that traditional or whatever viewpoints that you were told when you were 19 years you were told when you were 19 years you were told when you were 19 years old?" Like, God's not going to ask me old?" Like, God's not going to ask me old?" Like, God's not going to ask me that question. So, I'm just I don't I that question. So, I'm just I don't I that question. So, I'm just I don't I don't mind departing from the tradition

don't mind departing from the tradition don't mind departing from the tradition if I'm convinced that the Bible says if I'm convinced that the Bible says if I'm convinced that the Bible says says it, you know. says it, you know. says it, you know. >> Well, you know, I'm glad we're going >> Well, you know, I'm glad we're going >> Well, you know, I'm glad we're going there. I wasn't planning on talking there. I wasn't planning on talking there. I wasn't planning on talking about this with you, but you know, the about this with you, but you know, the about this with you, but you know, the older I've gotten, I've read the Bible older I've gotten, I've read the Bible older I've gotten, I've read the Bible through in a year for the most part for through in a year for the most part for through in a year for the most part for the last 28 years thereabouts, started the last 28 years thereabouts, started the last 28 years thereabouts, started in the late '90s. And as you get older, in the late '90s. And as you get older, in the late '90s. And as you get older, I mean, I find parts of it more shocking I mean, I find parts of it more shocking I mean, I find parts of it more shocking than I ever did. And so, where where I'm than I ever did. And so, where where I'm than I ever did. And so, where where I'm at, like, I'm now in the ooh, I don't at, like, I'm now in the ooh, I don't at, like, I'm now in the ooh, I don't know that I land on the right side of know that I land on the right side of know that I land on the right side of scripture. Like, if I'm in these scripture. Like, if I'm in these scripture. Like, if I'm in these stories, am I a religious leader, or am stories, am I a religious leader, or am stories, am I a religious leader, or am I the sinner looking for repentance? I'm I the sinner looking for repentance? I'm I the sinner looking for repentance? I'm very worried I might land on the wrong very worried I might land on the wrong very worried I might land on the wrong side of history. And then you get to side of history. And then you get to side of history. And then you get to Peter and the birth of the early church, Peter and the birth of the early church, Peter and the birth of the early church, and you get to him having the vision on and you get to him having the vision on and you get to him having the vision on the roof that the gospel is also for the the roof that the gospel is also for the the roof that the gospel is also for the Gentiles, and he sees these things that Gentiles, and he sees these things that Gentiles, and he sees these things that he has been raised and that he is not he has been raised and that he is not he has been raised and that he is not allowed to touch or even think of or see allowed to touch or even think of or see allowed to touch or even think of or see or enter his house. All this unclean or enter his house. All this unclean or enter his house. All this unclean food, these unclean animals. food, these unclean animals. food, these unclean animals. And he gets this vision at 3:00 in the And he gets this vision at 3:00 in the And he gets this vision at 3:00 in the afternoon. afternoon. afternoon. And God says, "No, it's clean. You can And God says, "No, it's clean. You can And God says, "No, it's clean. You can touch and eat." And he wakes up and he touch and eat." And he wakes up and he touch and eat." And he wakes up and he obeys. I would be like, "I think that's obeys. I would be like, "I think that's obeys. I would be like, "I think that's a bad dream. I I I know. I've I'm raised a bad dream. I I I know. I've I'm raised a bad dream. I I I know. I've I'm raised in this." Like, do you know what the Old in this." Like, do you know what the Old in this." Like, do you know what the Old Testament says? And of course, New Testament says? And of course, New Testament says? And of course, New Testament hasn't been written yet. And Testament hasn't been written yet. And Testament hasn't been written yet. And then and then he knows immediately it's then and then he knows immediately it's then and then he knows immediately it's not about food, it's about the Gentiles.

not about food, it's about the Gentiles. not about food, it's about the Gentiles. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Like, how does he know that? And then it >> Like, how does he know that? And then it >> Like, how does he know that? And then it gets confirmed by Cornelius. But gets confirmed by Cornelius. But gets confirmed by Cornelius. But Cornelius, he's never let a Gentile into Cornelius, he's never let a Gentile into Cornelius, he's never let a Gentile into his house before. Now he lets a Gentile his house before. Now he lets a Gentile his house before. Now he lets a Gentile into his house, and I'm like into his house, and I'm like into his house, and I'm like Ooh, I don't know that I would be that Ooh, I don't know that I would be that Ooh, I don't know that I would be that open-minded. Like, I think I would have open-minded. Like, I think I would have open-minded. Like, I think I would have been just on the wrong side of history. been just on the wrong side of history. been just on the wrong side of history. I don't know. It's just really I don't know. It's just really I don't know. It's just really interesting because we think of like I'm interesting because we think of like I'm interesting because we think of like I'm holding to the view as our understanding holding to the view as our understanding holding to the view as our understanding of orthodoxy when Jesus completely of orthodoxy when Jesus completely of orthodoxy when Jesus completely upended what orthodoxy was. The people upended what orthodoxy was. The people upended what orthodoxy was. The people who were out were in. And I know we who were out were in. And I know we who were out were in. And I know we preach that stuff, but when you actually preach that stuff, but when you actually preach that stuff, but when you actually look at it, it's like look at it, it's like look at it, it's like Ooh, I'm Ooh, I'm Ooh, I'm like, I don't know. Any thoughts on like, I don't know. Any thoughts on like, I don't know. Any thoughts on that? that? that? >> Well, what's what's what's what's funny >> Well, what's what's what's what's funny >> Well, what's what's what's what's funny about that story is about that story is about that story is Peter end up getting a lot of flak from Peter end up getting a lot of flak from Peter end up getting a lot of flak from his conservative Jewish his conservative Jewish his conservative Jewish you know, brothers who wanted to you know, brothers who wanted to you know, brothers who wanted to maintain tradition, and he capitulated, maintain tradition, and he capitulated, maintain tradition, and he capitulated, and Paul had to confront him on it, and Paul had to confront him on it, and Paul had to confront him on it, right? In Galatians 2 it says, "You are right? In Galatians 2 it says, "You are right? In Galatians 2 it says, "You are >> Hey. >> Hey. >> Hey. >> used to eat with Gentiles, now you're >> used to eat with Gentiles, now you're >> used to eat with Gentiles, now you're not." And he says, "You're not walking not." And he says, "You're not walking not." And he says, "You're not walking in step with the truth of the gospel." in step with the truth of the gospel." in step with the truth of the gospel." So, it's So, it's So, it's it's maintaining traditions that God it's maintaining traditions that God it's maintaining traditions that God wasn't wanting him to maintain was a wasn't wanting him to maintain was a wasn't wanting him to maintain was a departure from the gospel.

departure from the gospel. departure from the gospel. So, yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah. >> So, it's really interesting, you know, >> So, it's really interesting, you know, >> So, it's really interesting, you know, open-mindedness as a cardinal sin. I open-mindedness as a cardinal sin. I open-mindedness as a cardinal sin. I don't think that's that's a great don't think that's that's a great don't think that's that's a great framing. And we live I don't know framing. And we live I don't know framing. And we live I don't know whether you've seen this or not, but whether you've seen this or not, but whether you've seen this or not, but we've both been around leadership for a we've both been around leadership for a we've both been around leadership for a little while. little while. little while. I would say I would say I would say perhaps in the church we feel a little perhaps in the church we feel a little perhaps in the church we feel a little more close-minded now in this season more close-minded now in this season more close-minded now in this season than we were 20 years ago. Does that than we were 20 years ago. Does that than we were 20 years ago. Does that seem right to you or not? seem right to you or not? seem right to you or not? >> Feel Yeah, I I It feels that way to me. >> Feel Yeah, I I It feels that way to me. >> Feel Yeah, I I It feels that way to me. It's hard to measure it, but I think It's hard to measure it, but I think It's hard to measure it, but I think the the the like tribalism within like tribalism within like tribalism within the broad stream of Christianity seems the broad stream of Christianity seems the broad stream of Christianity seems to have gotten to have gotten to have gotten stronger. See, the walls around each stronger. See, the walls around each stronger. See, the walls around each tribe seem to have gotten thicker. And tribe seem to have gotten thicker. And tribe seem to have gotten thicker. And conversations across different tribes, conversations across different tribes, conversations across different tribes, again, within Orthodox Christianity again, within Orthodox Christianity again, within Orthodox Christianity uh do seem to be not being had as much, uh do seem to be not being had as much, uh do seem to be not being had as much, these healthy, curious conversations, these healthy, curious conversations, these healthy, curious conversations, even across differences. Um I don't even across differences. Um I don't even across differences. Um I don't know, you know, we maybe, you know, we know, you know, we maybe, you know, we know, you know, we maybe, you know, we can blame it all on social media, the can blame it all on social media, the can blame it all on social media, the internet. Uh politics is a big play. You internet. Uh politics is a big play. You internet. Uh politics is a big play. You know, so I don't I don't know that know, so I don't I don't know that know, so I don't I don't know that they're they're they're they the root cause, but it certainly they the root cause, but it certainly they the root cause, but it certainly feels that way. And that's I don't know, feels that way. And that's I don't know, feels that way. And that's I don't know, I just have never I just have never I just have never operated that way. Like I I love talking operated that way. Like I I love talking operated that way. Like I I love talking to people of different viewpoints and to people of different viewpoints and to people of different viewpoints and learning and finding blind spots in my learning and finding blind spots in my learning and finding blind spots in my own viewpoints. You only do that if you own viewpoints. You only do that if you own viewpoints. You only do that if you get outside your echo chamber and get outside your echo chamber and get outside your echo chamber and curiously engage other people. Doesn't curiously engage other people. Doesn't curiously engage other people. Doesn't mean you agree with it, just means you mean you agree with it, just means you mean you agree with it, just means you can't really under You can't really can't really under You can't really can't really under You can't really refute somebody unless you truly refute somebody unless you truly refute somebody unless you truly understand what they're trying to say,

understand what they're trying to say, understand what they're trying to say, you know, so you know, so you know, so >> Yeah, it's not so much fidelity to what >> Yeah, it's not so much fidelity to what >> Yeah, it's not so much fidelity to what I know or what I've known. It's fidelity I know or what I've known. It's fidelity I know or what I've known. It's fidelity to the gospel. I think you framed that to the gospel. I think you framed that to the gospel. I think you framed that really well. Not not fidelity to what I really well. Not not fidelity to what I really well. Not not fidelity to what I once thought or once thought or once thought or >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> once believed. Okay, so, you know, back >> once believed. Okay, so, you know, back >> once believed. Okay, so, you know, back to where you decided to pick up this to where you decided to pick up this to where you decided to pick up this journey. You you your more recent book, journey. You you your more recent book, journey. You you your more recent book, your recent book before this your recent book before this your recent book before this was on biblical sexuality. And you was on biblical sexuality. And you was on biblical sexuality. And you really wanted to explore that. Now, on really wanted to explore that. Now, on really wanted to explore that. Now, on that one that one that one you came out with a historic you came out with a historic you came out with a historic understanding of human sexuality that is understanding of human sexuality that is understanding of human sexuality that is not affirming, correct? not affirming, correct? not affirming, correct? >> Yeah. Yeah, and and that one I you know, >> Yeah. Yeah, and and that one I you know, >> Yeah. Yeah, and and that one I you know, I approached that one like any topic I I approached that one like any topic I I approached that one like any topic I want to be open to what the text says. want to be open to what the text says. want to be open to what the text says. And I knew what I believed, but I didn't And I knew what I believed, but I didn't And I knew what I believed, but I didn't know why I believed it, you know, know why I believed it, you know, know why I believed it, you know, growing up homosexuality is a sin, blah growing up homosexuality is a sin, blah growing up homosexuality is a sin, blah blah blah. But I didn't really I blah blah. But I didn't really I blah blah. But I didn't really I wouldn't be able to defend that from wouldn't be able to defend that from wouldn't be able to defend that from scripture. I didn't even know where the scripture. I didn't even know where the scripture. I didn't even know where the Bible says it, you know, so I did a Bible says it, you know, so I did a Bible says it, you know, so I did a thorough study of the text. What does thorough study of the text. What does thorough study of the text. What does the Bible say about marriage? What does the Bible say about marriage? What does the Bible say about marriage? What does it say about same-sex relationships? And it say about same-sex relationships? And it say about same-sex relationships? And I I I concluded that yeah, here here I think concluded that yeah, here here I think concluded that yeah, here here I think tradition got it tradition got it tradition got it I got it right. Like marriage is between I got it right. Like marriage is between I got it right. Like marriage is between a man and a woman. The a man and a woman. The a man and a woman. The sex difference is an intrinsic part of sex difference is an intrinsic part of sex difference is an intrinsic part of what marriage is. It's built into the what marriage is. It's built into the what marriage is. It's built into the fabric of creation. It's part of the fabric of creation. It's part of the fabric of creation. It's part of the storyline of scripture as marriage as a storyline of scripture as marriage as a storyline of scripture as marriage as a metaphor participates in God's covenant metaphor participates in God's covenant metaphor participates in God's covenant love for us and sex difference is love for us and sex difference is love for us and sex difference is necessary for that uh metaphor to work.

necessary for that uh metaphor to work. necessary for that uh metaphor to work. Whenever same-sex relationships or Whenever same-sex relationships or Whenever same-sex relationships or sexual relationships are mentioned, sexual relationships are mentioned, sexual relationships are mentioned, they're always prohibited. So, I I I did they're always prohibited. So, I I I did they're always prohibited. So, I I I did I tried to understand the affirming view I tried to understand the affirming view I tried to understand the affirming view the best I could and say if it's the best I could and say if it's the best I could and say if it's biblical, then let's go with it, but I biblical, then let's go with it, but I biblical, then let's go with it, but I just didn't see it in scripture. So, just didn't see it in scripture. So, just didn't see it in scripture. So, yeah, I I I landed on not just landed, yeah, I I I landed on not just landed, yeah, I I I landed on not just landed, but I think this is a very important but I think this is a very important but I think this is a very important doctrine uh that you know, that that doctrine uh that you know, that that doctrine uh that you know, that that marriage is between a man and a woman. marriage is between a man and a woman. marriage is between a man and a woman. And um so, I've been yeah, I've written And um so, I've been yeah, I've written And um so, I've been yeah, I've written a few books uh defending that. Where a few books uh defending that. Where a few books uh defending that. Where some people maybe got thrown off is I some people maybe got thrown off is I some people maybe got thrown off is I said said said and also we should embody the radical and also we should embody the radical and also we should embody the radical kindness of God that leads to repentance kindness of God that leads to repentance kindness of God that leads to repentance toward LGBTQ people. And that's that's toward LGBTQ people. And that's that's toward LGBTQ people. And that's that's where some people they they're like, where some people they they're like, where some people they they're like, "We're on board with your theology, but "We're on board with your theology, but "We're on board with your theology, but this kindness and love and this kindness and love and this kindness and love and understanding, we're not so sure about." understanding, we're not so sure about." understanding, we're not so sure about." I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm just it comes from Jesus, you know I'm just it comes from Jesus, you know I'm just it comes from Jesus, you know that, right? that, right? that, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and you know, some people Well, and and you know, some people Well, and and you know, some people would would react to the kindness and would would react to the kindness and would would react to the kindness and love. Some people would react to the love. Some people would react to the love. Some people would react to the repentance. There's no need to repent, repentance. There's no need to repent, repentance. There's no need to repent, right? Welcome to the era that we're in.

right? Welcome to the era that we're in. right? Welcome to the era that we're in. But what's interesting about that to me But what's interesting about that to me But what's interesting about that to me and this is why I really wanted to have and this is why I really wanted to have and this is why I really wanted to have this conversation, if it was just based this conversation, if it was just based this conversation, if it was just based on well, I got some really smart people on well, I got some really smart people on well, I got some really smart people and they changed their mind on this and they changed their mind on this and they changed their mind on this issue or they hold a different view. issue or they hold a different view. issue or they hold a different view. There's some very smart people who have There's some very smart people who have There's some very smart people who have changed their views or hold a different changed their views or hold a different changed their views or hold a different view, an affirming view of sexuality. view, an affirming view of sexuality. view, an affirming view of sexuality. I know some of them. I haven't changed I know some of them. I haven't changed I know some of them. I haven't changed my mind on that either. my mind on that either. my mind on that either. Um, I'm not affirming at this point, but Um, I'm not affirming at this point, but Um, I'm not affirming at this point, but I want to show the kindness and etc. I want to show the kindness and etc. I want to show the kindness and etc. etc. I just can't get away from the etc. I just can't get away from the etc. I just can't get away from the scripture on that issue. Um, but usually scripture on that issue. Um, but usually scripture on that issue. Um, but usually what would happen is you would come out what would happen is you would come out what would happen is you would come out affirming and then come out egalitarian affirming and then come out egalitarian affirming and then come out egalitarian and then, you know, etc. But what I find and then, you know, etc. But what I find and then, you know, etc. But what I find really interesting is your biblical really interesting is your biblical really interesting is your biblical study on sexuality led you to affirm the study on sexuality led you to affirm the study on sexuality led you to affirm the historic understanding of man and woman historic understanding of man and woman historic understanding of man and woman etc. and sexuality, but your biblical etc. and sexuality, but your biblical etc. and sexuality, but your biblical understanding on women in leadership led understanding on women in leadership led understanding on women in leadership led you to embrace a different position from you to embrace a different position from you to embrace a different position from where you had started. where you had started. where you had started. >> Right. Yeah, people Yeah, people try to >> Right. Yeah, people Yeah, people try to >> Right. Yeah, people Yeah, people try to throw out the slippery slope thing like throw out the slippery slope thing like throw out the slippery slope thing like if if you affirm women in leadership, if if you affirm women in leadership, if if you affirm women in leadership, then you're going to be affirmative then you're going to be affirmative then you're going to be affirmative same-sex relationships and I'm like that same-sex relationships and I'm like that same-sex relationships and I'm like that we're dealing with two different two we're dealing with two different two we're dealing with two different two different issues. Um, and I and I make different issues. Um, and I and I make different issues. Um, and I and I make it really clear in my book that it really clear in my book that it really clear in my book that um, um, um, we shouldn't diminish sex differences, we shouldn't diminish sex differences, we shouldn't diminish sex differences, male-female differences in order to male-female differences in order to male-female differences in order to achieve a view where, you know, women achieve a view where, you know, women achieve a view where, you know, women can be leaders in a church. The question can be leaders in a church. The question can be leaders in a church. The question isn't are men and women men and women isn't are men and women men and women isn't are men and women men and women different? Of course they're different.

different? Of course they're different. different? Of course they're different. The question is do those differences The question is do those differences The question is do those differences determine who can be in a position of determine who can be in a position of determine who can be in a position of leadership or not. So we're really leadership or not. So we're really leadership or not. So we're really dealing with different things and yes, dealing with different things and yes, dealing with different things and yes, anecdotally anecdotally anecdotally every affirming person I know is also every affirming person I know is also every affirming person I know is also egalitarian or like egalitarian or like egalitarian or like in terms of you know, the those who you in terms of you know, the those who you in terms of you know, the those who you know, confess Jesus. know, confess Jesus. know, confess Jesus. Um, Um, Um, but the slippery slope has two sides but the slippery slope has two sides but the slippery slope has two sides too. I want to remind people, you know. too. I want to remind people, you know. too. I want to remind people, you know. >> What's the other side of the slippery >> What's the other side of the slippery >> What's the other side of the slippery slope? Like slope? Like slope? Like >> Well, I mean if if um >> Well, I mean if if um >> Well, I mean if if um Yeah, if you think just defending like a Yeah, if you think just defending like a Yeah, if you think just defending like a complementarian view, if it's not complementarian view, if it's not complementarian view, if it's not the best interpretation of scripture, the best interpretation of scripture, the best interpretation of scripture, like slippery slope is your like slippery slope is your like slippery slope is your you're not you're not you're not you're not allowing half of the kingdom you're not allowing half of the kingdom you're not allowing half of the kingdom the opportunity to be in positions of the opportunity to be in positions of the opportunity to be in positions of leadership and God may be calling them leadership and God may be calling them leadership and God may be calling them to leadership and to leadership and to leadership and not that this is true of all not that this is true of all not that this is true of all complementarian context, but you could complementarian context, but you could complementarian context, but you could it could foster a kind of like misogyny it could foster a kind of like misogyny it could foster a kind of like misogyny or devaluing of women. I've been in or devaluing of women. I've been in or devaluing of women. I've been in complementarian churches that don't do complementarian churches that don't do complementarian churches that don't do that.

that. that. And I've seen some that do, you know, so And I've seen some that do, you know, so And I've seen some that do, you know, so just because you maintain tradition and just because you maintain tradition and just because you maintain tradition and maintain your conservatism doesn't mean maintain your conservatism doesn't mean maintain your conservatism doesn't mean you could also you could also you could also that you're that that you're immune from that you're that that you're immune from that you're that that you're immune from not aligning with with script scripture not aligning with with script scripture not aligning with with script scripture in the other directions. in the other directions. in the other directions. >> This episode is brought to you by Belay. >> This episode is brought to you by Belay. >> This episode is brought to you by Belay. Does this sound familiar? You finally Does this sound familiar? You finally Does this sound familiar? You finally sit down to review your budget or sit down to review your budget or sit down to review your budget or coordinate travel for a guest speaker or coordinate travel for a guest speaker or coordinate travel for a guest speaker or tackle one of the dozens of tasks on tackle one of the dozens of tasks on tackle one of the dozens of tasks on your to-do list your to-do list your to-do list and right on cue somebody walks in to and right on cue somebody walks in to and right on cue somebody walks in to your office needing your guidance. And your office needing your guidance. And your office needing your guidance. And of course, that's your calling, right? of course, that's your calling, right? of course, that's your calling, right? It's the work you love. It's the work It's the work you love. It's the work It's the work you love. It's the work you should be doing, but instead of you should be doing, but instead of you should be doing, but instead of being fully present part of your mind is being fully present part of your mind is being fully present part of your mind is still on that to-do list. And that's still on that to-do list. And that's still on that to-do list. And that's where our friends at Belay come in. where our friends at Belay come in. where our friends at Belay come in. Belay pairs you with pre-vetted US-based Belay pairs you with pre-vetted US-based Belay pairs you with pre-vetted US-based assistants and financial experts who assistants and financial experts who assistants and financial experts who step in to handle the tasks that keep step in to handle the tasks that keep step in to handle the tasks that keep you from leading. They bring proactive, you from leading. They bring proactive, you from leading. They bring proactive, expert human support right where you expert human support right where you expert human support right where you need them. And Belay's flexible, need them. And Belay's flexible, need them. And Belay's flexible, fractional model means you can take as fractional model means you can take as fractional model means you can take as much or as little help as you need so much or as little help as you need so much or as little help as you need so you can focus your mission and stay on you can focus your mission and stay on you can focus your mission and stay on budget. And right now, they're giving budget. And right now, they're giving budget. And right now, they're giving away free downloads of their resource away free downloads of their resource away free downloads of their resource Five Traits AI Can't Replace. So this Five Traits AI Can't Replace. So this Five Traits AI Can't Replace. So this guide discusses what AI can do well on guide discusses what AI can do well on guide discusses what AI can do well on its own and where human touch is needed its own and where human touch is needed its own and where human touch is needed and how to use it most effectively.

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does exactly what you did in this book. does exactly what you did in this book. You start open-minded, you actually You start open-minded, you actually You start open-minded, you actually investigate the issue, you let the investigate the issue, you let the investigate the issue, you let the evidence take you somewhere, you don't evidence take you somewhere, you don't evidence take you somewhere, you don't take the evidence somewhere and you go take the evidence somewhere and you go take the evidence somewhere and you go from there. So, you start um like the from there. So, you start um like the from there. So, you start um like the introduction where you had a plane or introduction where you had a plane or introduction where you had a plane or was that the conclusion? That was the was that the conclusion? That was the was that the conclusion? That was the conclusion, yeah. Conclusion you're on a conclusion, yeah. Conclusion you're on a conclusion, yeah. Conclusion you're on a plane. But at the beginning you're plane. But at the beginning you're plane. But at the beginning you're you're starting out and you really don't you're starting out and you really don't you're starting out and you really don't know and you you normally, you know, you know and you you normally, you know, you know and you you normally, you know, you write a book after you figured it all write a book after you figured it all write a book after you figured it all out. This is like, let's go for the out. This is like, let's go for the out. This is like, let's go for the ride. So, you start in Genesis. What did ride. So, you start in Genesis. What did ride. So, you start in Genesis. What did you learn about men and women? One of my you learn about men and women? One of my you learn about men and women? One of my mentors early on in ministry, he said mentors early on in ministry, he said mentors early on in ministry, he said everything I need to know about God and everything I need to know about God and everything I need to know about God and life I learned in Genesis 1 through 3 life I learned in Genesis 1 through 3 life I learned in Genesis 1 through 3 and the more I think about that, the and the more I think about that, the and the more I think about that, the more I'm like, yeah, there's a lot more I'm like, yeah, there's a lot more I'm like, yeah, there's a lot there. What did you learn in Genesis 1 there. What did you learn in Genesis 1 there. What did you learn in Genesis 1 through 3? through 3? through 3? >> It's crucial I mean this passage is is >> It's crucial I mean this passage is is >> It's crucial I mean this passage is is really important for for the debate. really important for for the debate. really important for for the debate. Some people say the entire debate debate Some people say the entire debate debate Some people say the entire debate debate rests on Genesis 1 to 3. I think that's rests on Genesis 1 to 3. I think that's rests on Genesis 1 to 3. I think that's a little too far, but clearly it's an a little too far, but clearly it's an a little too far, but clearly it's an important text and especially in my, you important text and especially in my, you important text and especially in my, you know, in a my complimentary upbringing, know, in a my complimentary upbringing, know, in a my complimentary upbringing, you know, I often heard of the you know, I often heard of the you know, I often heard of the arguments, you know, Adam was born arguments, you know, Adam was born arguments, you know, Adam was born first, therefore he is in authority over first, therefore he is in authority over first, therefore he is in authority over Eve. Um, is his helper, therefore Adam Eve. Um, is his helper, therefore Adam Eve. Um, is his helper, therefore Adam has priority and Eve exists to help her has priority and Eve exists to help her has priority and Eve exists to help her husband, uh, but he's really kind of husband, uh, but he's really kind of husband, uh, but he's really kind of do doing the main work, you know, and do doing the main work, you know, and do doing the main work, you know, and uh, and and this is a paradigm for all uh, and and this is a paradigm for all uh, and and this is a paradigm for all future, you know, male-female relations.

future, you know, male-female relations. future, you know, male-female relations. And there's other arguments that people, And there's other arguments that people, And there's other arguments that people, uh, draw out of Genesis 1 to 3. Um, and uh, draw out of Genesis 1 to 3. Um, and uh, draw out of Genesis 1 to 3. Um, and so I kind of went back to the text of so I kind of went back to the text of so I kind of went back to the text of scripture and I just wanted to really s- scripture and I just wanted to really s- scripture and I just wanted to really s- see what are the arguments for the see what are the arguments for the see what are the arguments for the different views here and do they hold different views here and do they hold different views here and do they hold exegetical weight? And so I kind of exegetical weight? And so I kind of exegetical weight? And so I kind of considered a lot of the main ones, you considered a lot of the main ones, you considered a lot of the main ones, you know, like yeah, Adam being born first. know, like yeah, Adam being born first. know, like yeah, Adam being born first. Um, Um, Um, I looked into that. A lot of people will I looked into that. A lot of people will I looked into that. A lot of people will point out that there's a a principle in point out that there's a a principle in point out that there's a a principle in the ancient world called primogenitor the ancient world called primogenitor the ancient world called primogenitor where the f- the firstborn son would where the f- the firstborn son would where the f- the firstborn son would take over leadership of the family when take over leadership of the family when take over leadership of the family when the father dies. Like so, he is kind of the father dies. Like so, he is kind of the father dies. Like so, he is kind of in authority over there's the rest of in authority over there's the rest of in authority over there's the rest of his siblings, you know, the rest of the his siblings, you know, the rest of the his siblings, you know, the rest of the household. Um, and I'm like, okay, well, household. Um, and I'm like, okay, well, household. Um, and I'm like, okay, well, you know, you know, you know, >> I felt that in the 19th century in past >> I felt that in the 19th century in past >> I felt that in the 19th century in past societies and maybe it's still active in societies and maybe it's still active in societies and maybe it's still active in some cultures today, primogenitor. some cultures today, primogenitor. some cultures today, primogenitor. >> Sure, and >> Sure, and >> Sure, and >> the lion's share of everything. >> the lion's share of everything. >> the lion's share of everything. >> Right, and you see that, uh, as a you >> Right, and you see that, uh, as a you >> Right, and you see that, uh, as a you see that in ancient Israelite culture see that in ancient Israelite culture see that in ancient Israelite culture for sure. But then, you know, I started for sure. But then, you know, I started for sure. But then, you know, I started looking at looking at looking at the situation of Adam and Eve and I was the situation of Adam and Eve and I was the situation of Adam and Eve and I was like, well, like, well, like, well, Adam and Eve are spouses, not siblings.

Adam and Eve are spouses, not siblings. Adam and Eve are spouses, not siblings. Um, Um, Um, she is not his younger brother and she is not his younger brother and she is not his younger brother and there's the fa- there's no father who there's the fa- there's no father who there's the fa- there's no father who has died to pass on the inheritance. So, has died to pass on the inheritance. So, has died to pass on the inheritance. So, yeah, he's created first, but to just yeah, he's created first, but to just yeah, he's created first, but to just say, oh, this is primogenitor, it's say, oh, this is primogenitor, it's say, oh, this is primogenitor, it's like, well, it is it though? Like it like, well, it is it though? Like it like, well, it is it though? Like it doesn't seem to match up. But most doesn't seem to match up. But most doesn't seem to match up. But most importantly, and this is something that, importantly, and this is something that, importantly, and this is something that, you know, I kind of knew intuitively, you know, I kind of knew intuitively, you know, I kind of knew intuitively, but I I I, you know, just but I I I, you know, just but I I I, you know, just r- read through, you know, all the r- read through, you know, all the r- read through, you know, all the passages and it's like, man, God often passages and it's like, man, God often passages and it's like, man, God often overturns primogenitor throughout overturns primogenitor throughout overturns primogenitor throughout scripture. scripture. scripture. >> I was just going to say, that's Joseph. >> I was just going to say, that's Joseph. >> I was just going to say, that's Joseph. That's like That's Jacob and Esau, That's like That's Jacob and Esau, That's like That's Jacob and Esau, right? Like right? Like right? Like >> Pharez and Zerah, David and his >> Pharez and Zerah, David and his >> Pharez and Zerah, David and his brothers. I mean, you can go on and on. brothers. I mean, you can go on and on. brothers. I mean, you can go on and on. This seems to be something that Yes, it This seems to be something that Yes, it This seems to be something that Yes, it was a cultural norm, but God often was a cultural norm, but God often was a cultural norm, but God often challenges this culminating in Jesus' challenges this culminating in Jesus' challenges this culminating in Jesus' mantra that he said so often, you know, mantra that he said so often, you know, mantra that he said so often, you know, the last will be first, the first will the last will be first, the first will the last will be first, the first will be last, the last Adam's better than the be last, the last Adam's better than the be last, the last Adam's better than the first Adam. You know, so it's just to first Adam. You know, so it's just to first Adam. You know, so it's just to say like simply because Adam was born say like simply because Adam was born say like simply because Adam was born first, this is been primogeniture, he first, this is been primogeniture, he first, this is been primogeniture, he has priority over the woman. Therefore, has priority over the woman. Therefore, has priority over the woman. Therefore, women shouldn't be in church leadership. women shouldn't be in church leadership. women shouldn't be in church leadership. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that that there's several li- that that there's several li- that that there's several li- theological leaps and assumptions going theological leaps and assumptions going theological leaps and assumptions going on there that just aren't there clearly on there that just aren't there clearly on there that just aren't there clearly in Genesis. So, yeah.

in Genesis. So, yeah. in Genesis. So, yeah. >> Well, and there's a blame game, too, >> Well, and there's a blame game, too, >> Well, and there's a blame game, too, right? It was Eve who was deceived. Uh right? It was Eve who was deceived. Uh right? It was Eve who was deceived. Uh I've heard that one. What what did you I've heard that one. What what did you I've heard that one. What what did you make of that? make of that? make of that? >> That would That would I I did talk about >> That would That would I I did talk about >> That would That would I I did talk about that. That was a one of the weaker that. That was a one of the weaker that. That was a one of the weaker arguments. arguments. arguments. You know, it's like You know, it's like You know, it's like And I even point out, I'm like, you And I even point out, I'm like, you And I even point out, I'm like, you know, it took the most craftiest know, it took the most craftiest know, it took the most craftiest uh being in the universe to deceive the uh being in the universe to deceive the uh being in the universe to deceive the woman. woman. woman. And she sinned. Uh what did it take for And she sinned. Uh what did it take for And she sinned. Uh what did it take for Adam to sin? His wife offered him some Adam to sin? His wife offered him some Adam to sin? His wife offered him some fruit. fruit. fruit. >> Well, he's like, yeah, the dumb, silent >> Well, he's like, yeah, the dumb, silent >> Well, he's like, yeah, the dumb, silent type. Like, okay, looks good to me. I'm type. Like, okay, looks good to me. I'm type. Like, okay, looks good to me. I'm hungry. hungry. hungry. >> If we're going to say this is like a >> If we're going to say this is like a >> If we're going to say this is like a knock on someone's intellect, then it knock on someone's intellect, then it knock on someone's intellect, then it could go it we can get all off the rails could go it we can get all off the rails could go it we can get all off the rails and saying Adam was, you know, you know, and saying Adam was, you know, you know, and saying Adam was, you know, you know, way dumber than Eve. Whatever, you know, way dumber than Eve. Whatever, you know, way dumber than Eve. Whatever, you know, so I just like I don't I don't think so I just like I don't I don't think so I just like I don't I don't think Again, I I'm asking a question, is the Again, I I'm asking a question, is the Again, I I'm asking a question, is the text trying to tell us something text trying to tell us something text trying to tell us something intentional about intentional about intentional about authority structure and and leadership authority structure and and leadership authority structure and and leadership in the way they're retelling the story in the way they're retelling the story in the way they're retelling the story of Adam and Eve. And that's where with of Adam and Eve. And that's where with of Adam and Eve. And that's where with all these arguments I just said, I mean, all these arguments I just said, I mean, all these arguments I just said, I mean, maybe. I just don't see the biblical maybe. I just don't see the biblical maybe. I just don't see the biblical author really trying to promote that.

author really trying to promote that. author really trying to promote that. Another one is, you know, Adam names his Another one is, you know, Adam names his Another one is, you know, Adam names his wife, you know, in Genesis 2:23, "You wife, you know, in Genesis 2:23, "You wife, you know, in Genesis 2:23, "You shall be called woman, for you were shall be called woman, for you were shall be called woman, for you were taken out of man." And And you do have taken out of man." And And you do have taken out of man." And And you do have um in the ancient world um in the ancient world um in the ancient world when somebody names somebody else or when somebody names somebody else or when somebody names somebody else or changes the name of somebody else, like changes the name of somebody else, like changes the name of somebody else, like uh Nebuchadnezzar was you know changing uh Nebuchadnezzar was you know changing uh Nebuchadnezzar was you know changing the names of Shadrach, Meshach, and the names of Shadrach, Meshach, and the names of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Abednego. Abednego. Um, is that the right? Yeah. No, that Um, is that the right? Yeah. No, that Um, is that the right? Yeah. No, that was was was >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Daniel Belteshazzar and yeah. >> Daniel Belteshazzar and yeah. >> Daniel Belteshazzar and yeah. >> Right, yeah. Um, and like okay, yeah, >> Right, yeah. Um, and like okay, yeah, >> Right, yeah. Um, and like okay, yeah, you see that in scripture, but then you see that in scripture, but then you see that in scripture, but then you see cases where the person doing the you see cases where the person doing the you see cases where the person doing the naming isn't demonstrating authority naming isn't demonstrating authority naming isn't demonstrating authority over the person being named, like in the over the person being named, like in the over the person being named, like in the case of Hagar who names God in Genesis case of Hagar who names God in Genesis case of Hagar who names God in Genesis 16, or or there's a there's a story in 16, or or there's a there's a story in 16, or or there's a there's a story in Genesis, I believe it's 26, where Genesis, I believe it's 26, where Genesis, I believe it's 26, where the naming, giving a name to the place the naming, giving a name to the place the naming, giving a name to the place where the well was dug is actually where the well was dug is actually where the well was dug is actually a way of kind of relinquishing a way of kind of relinquishing a way of kind of relinquishing authority. It's kind of an odd authority. It's kind of an odd authority. It's kind of an odd passage, but it's like okay, so passage, but it's like okay, so passage, but it's like okay, so and he doesn't really name he doesn't and he doesn't really name he doesn't and he doesn't really name he doesn't name her Eve there. He does that at the name her Eve there. He does that at the name her Eve there. He does that at the end of chapter 3, but that's in the end of chapter 3, but that's in the end of chapter 3, but that's in the context of the fall.

context of the fall. context of the fall. In 2:23, he just calls her woman. Is In 2:23, he just calls her woman. Is In 2:23, he just calls her woman. Is that a naming? Is he naming her? Well, that a naming? Is he naming her? Well, that a naming? Is he naming her? Well, it's not too clear and and it's not too clear and and it's not too clear and and just because he names her, it's not just because he names her, it's not just because he names her, it's not always the case that that's a always the case that that's a always the case that that's a demonstration of authority. So, so demonstration of authority. So, so demonstration of authority. So, so again, with all these arguments, I was again, with all these arguments, I was again, with all these arguments, I was like, okay, but you know, it's kind of like, okay, but you know, it's kind of like, okay, but you know, it's kind of like maybe, but there's problems with like maybe, but there's problems with like maybe, but there's problems with that argument. And other arguments were that argument. And other arguments were that argument. And other arguments were like, I don't think this really holds like, I don't think this really holds like, I don't think this really holds weight at all. So, weight at all. So, weight at all. So, you know, I just say I don't I don't you know, I just say I don't I don't you know, I just say I don't I don't think there's a clear think there's a clear think there's a clear um um um intention from the biblical author intention from the biblical author intention from the biblical author trying to promote kind of male authority trying to promote kind of male authority trying to promote kind of male authority over women in Genesis 1 to 3. over women in Genesis 1 to 3. over women in Genesis 1 to 3. >> So, the Old Testament, you continue, >> So, the Old Testament, you continue, >> So, the Old Testament, you continue, right? Like if it was clear in there, right? Like if it was clear in there, right? Like if it was clear in there, you're trying to do exegesis rather than you're trying to do exegesis rather than you're trying to do exegesis rather than eisegesis, right? You're trying to draw eisegesis, right? You're trying to draw eisegesis, right? You're trying to draw meaning out of the text rather than meaning out of the text rather than meaning out of the text rather than import your own perspective into the import your own perspective into the import your own perspective into the text, which you can easily do with any text, which you can easily do with any text, which you can easily do with any passage. I mean, preachers have done passage. I mean, preachers have done passage. I mean, preachers have done that for years, but that for years, but that for years, but um you move on to the Old Testament. um you move on to the Old Testament. um you move on to the Old Testament. What else did you discover? What else did you discover? What else did you discover? >> So, I just I you know, I really wanted >> So, I just I you know, I really wanted >> So, I just I you know, I really wanted to get to the New Testament, cuz that's to get to the New Testament, cuz that's to get to the New Testament, cuz that's really the heart of the debate, but I'm really the heart of the debate, but I'm really the heart of the debate, but I'm like, man, you got like, man, you got like, man, you got two-thirds of the Bible here, and the two-thirds of the Bible here, and the two-thirds of the Bible here, and the Old Testament was the early church's Old Testament was the early church's Old Testament was the early church's Bible. The New New Testament wasn't Bible. The New New Testament wasn't Bible. The New New Testament wasn't written yet. So, what did it say about written yet. So, what did it say about written yet. So, what did it say about women? Well, that's a big question. So, women? Well, that's a big question. So, women? Well, that's a big question. So, I you know, I wanted to see I you know, I wanted to see I you know, I wanted to see what what are some ways in which women what what are some ways in which women what what are some ways in which women appear in the Old Testament story?

appear in the Old Testament story? appear in the Old Testament story? Um as, you know, as has been pointed out Um as, you know, as has been pointed out Um as, you know, as has been pointed out by many people and and if you just read by many people and and if you just read by many people and and if you just read the Old Testament once, you would get the Old Testament once, you would get the Old Testament once, you would get this impression that this impression that this impression that men outnumber women by far in the men outnumber women by far in the men outnumber women by far in the biblical story, right? I mean, and biblical story, right? I mean, and biblical story, right? I mean, and statistically it's actually for every uh statistically it's actually for every uh statistically it's actually for every uh one woman that's named, 10 men are one woman that's named, 10 men are one woman that's named, 10 men are named. So, men outnumber women. named. So, men outnumber women. named. So, men outnumber women. >> 10 to one, yeah. >> 10 to one, yeah. >> 10 to one, yeah. >> And you got, you know, all the, you >> And you got, you know, all the, you >> And you got, you know, all the, you know, all the patriarchs and and Moses know, all the patriarchs and and Moses know, all the patriarchs and and Moses and Aaron and, you know, David and all and Aaron and, you know, David and all and Aaron and, you know, David and all the kings and, you know, so it's like, the kings and, you know, so it's like, the kings and, you know, so it's like, yeah, it's it's it seems like a drama yeah, it's it's it seems like a drama yeah, it's it's it seems like a drama between God and men and it largely is, between God and men and it largely is, between God and men and it largely is, but when women do come on the scene, but when women do come on the scene, but when women do come on the scene, they often they often they often model the radical faithfulness and model the radical faithfulness and model the radical faithfulness and sacrifice and courage that Yahweh sacrifice and courage that Yahweh sacrifice and courage that Yahweh demands, sometimes, often times, in demands, sometimes, often times, in demands, sometimes, often times, in contrast contrast contrast to the men around them. Uh my favorite to the men around them. Uh my favorite to the men around them. Uh my favorite is the early chapters of Exodus. This is is the early chapters of Exodus. This is is the early chapters of Exodus. This is something I didn't see for years, something I didn't see for years, something I didn't see for years, but the early chapters of Exodus, you but the early chapters of Exodus, you but the early chapters of Exodus, you know, this this major turning point in know, this this major turning point in know, this this major turning point in redemptive history where God's going to redemptive history where God's going to redemptive history where God's going to go redeem his people and we always go redeem his people and we always go redeem his people and we always think, yeah, and they use Moses and think, yeah, and they use Moses and think, yeah, and they use Moses and Aaron to go down and do that. Like, Aaron to go down and do that. Like, Aaron to go down and do that. Like, yeah, but let's revisit the early yeah, but let's revisit the early yeah, but let's revisit the early chapters.

chapters. chapters. Exodus 1 to 4, it is Exodus 1 to 4, it is Exodus 1 to 4, it is all women who are carrying out God's all women who are carrying out God's all women who are carrying out God's plan of redemption. You got the two plan of redemption. You got the two plan of redemption. You got the two Hebrew midwives in chapter Hebrew midwives in chapter Hebrew midwives in chapter one who, with, you know, one who, with, you know, one who, with, you know, thumbed their noses at the king's edict, thumbed their noses at the king's edict, thumbed their noses at the king's edict, you know, risking their lives. And and you know, risking their lives. And and you know, risking their lives. And and then chapter two, you have it's Moses's then chapter two, you have it's Moses's then chapter two, you have it's Moses's mom and then Moses's sister and then mom and then Moses's sister and then mom and then Moses's sister and then Pharaoh's daughter. And then in chapter Pharaoh's daughter. And then in chapter Pharaoh's daughter. And then in chapter four, you have my favorite story in the four, you have my favorite story in the four, you have my favorite story in the Bible, Zipporah, Moses's wife, you know, Bible, Zipporah, Moses's wife, you know, Bible, Zipporah, Moses's wife, you know, God's going to kill Moses because he God's going to kill Moses because he God's going to kill Moses because he forgot to circumcise his son. So, forgot to circumcise his son. So, forgot to circumcise his son. So, Zipporah busts out her flint rock, Zipporah busts out her flint rock, Zipporah busts out her flint rock, circumcises circumcises circumcises Gershom, and throws Gershom, and throws Gershom, and throws throws it at Moses' feet. And the author throws it at Moses' feet. And the author throws it at Moses' feet. And the author needs to tell us that it touched his needs to tell us that it touched his needs to tell us that it touched his feet, you know. So, feet, you know. So, feet, you know. So, so it's That's Think about that. This is so it's That's Think about that. This is so it's That's Think about that. This is written written written This this this essential part of the This this this essential part of the This this this essential part of the storyline of scripture is written in a storyline of scripture is written in a storyline of scripture is written in a profoundly patriarchal context, and the profoundly patriarchal context, and the profoundly patriarchal context, and the authors are highlighting all of these authors are highlighting all of these authors are highlighting all of these courageous women who are carrying out courageous women who are carrying out courageous women who are carrying out God's plan of redemption. And where's God's plan of redemption. And where's God's plan of redemption. And where's Moses? Well, he's kind of Moses? Well, he's kind of Moses? Well, he's kind of fumbling and stumbling. He's scared.

fumbling and stumbling. He's scared. fumbling and stumbling. He's scared. He's reluctant. He God does end up using He's reluctant. He God does end up using He's reluctant. He God does end up using him. And Moses goes on to do great him. And Moses goes on to do great him. And Moses goes on to do great things. But it's like, man, the women things. But it's like, man, the women things. But it's like, man, the women here are just here are just here are just you know, you know, you know, they're they're the star of the show at they're they're the star of the show at they're they're the star of the show at early on in in Exodus. And you see this early on in in Exodus. And you see this early on in in Exodus. And you see this all throughout the Old Testament with all throughout the Old Testament with all throughout the Old Testament with Abigail and and and Ruth and Rahab and Abigail and and and Ruth and Rahab and Abigail and and and Ruth and Rahab and other and other and and the you know, other and other and and the you know, other and other and and the you know, some some some female prophets, Deborah and Huldah and female prophets, Deborah and Huldah and female prophets, Deborah and Huldah and others. So, so others. So, so others. So, so quantity isn't the same as quality. quantity isn't the same as quality. quantity isn't the same as quality. While men outnumber women by far, gosh, While men outnumber women by far, gosh, While men outnumber women by far, gosh, God's giving us a glimpse of women just God's giving us a glimpse of women just God's giving us a glimpse of women just being rockstars for the kingdom even being rockstars for the kingdom even being rockstars for the kingdom even early on in in the Old Testament. early on in in the Old Testament. early on in in the Old Testament. >> Right. So, that's the Old Testament. And >> Right. So, that's the Old Testament. And >> Right. So, that's the Old Testament. And in in your mind, if it was just an Old in in your mind, if it was just an Old in in your mind, if it was just an Old Testament story, where did that leave Testament story, where did that leave Testament story, where did that leave you? you? you? >> In In Well, >> In In Well, >> In In Well, it's one thing for women to demonstrate it's one thing for women to demonstrate it's one thing for women to demonstrate faithfulness, you know? I mean, all faithfulness, you know? I mean, all faithfulness, you know? I mean, all Christians should be faithful, leaders Christians should be faithful, leaders Christians should be faithful, leaders or non-leaders. So, just cuz you're or non-leaders. So, just cuz you're or non-leaders. So, just cuz you're being a really awesome Yahweh follower, being a really awesome Yahweh follower, being a really awesome Yahweh follower, it doesn't mean doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't mean doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't mean doesn't necessarily mean therefore you should occupy a formal therefore you should occupy a formal therefore you should occupy a formal role of leadership. So, I didn't And role of leadership. So, I didn't And role of leadership. So, I didn't And this is how this is really the spirit of this is how this is really the spirit of this is how this is really the spirit of how my whole book lays out. I'm I'm not how my whole book lays out. I'm I'm not how my whole book lays out. I'm I'm not drawing I'm typically not drawing a drawing I'm typically not drawing a drawing I'm typically not drawing a one-to-one correlation between this one-to-one correlation between this one-to-one correlation between this passage and therefore women should be passage and therefore women should be passage and therefore women should be leaders. It it's it's just kind of a leaders. It it's it's just kind of a leaders. It it's it's just kind of a unfolding cumulative case that's unfolding cumulative case that's unfolding cumulative case that's building.

building. building. So, um but there are two, well, at least So, um but there are two, well, at least So, um but there are two, well, at least two people in the Old Testament that two people in the Old Testament that two people in the Old Testament that that do that do that do contribute to this conversation. Of contribute to this conversation. Of contribute to this conversation. Of course, it's Deborah and Hulda who, you course, it's Deborah and Hulda who, you course, it's Deborah and Hulda who, you know, Deborah is a prophet, um, know, Deborah is a prophet, um, know, Deborah is a prophet, um, uh, and a judge. And is, you know, I uh, and a judge. And is, you know, I uh, and a judge. And is, you know, I considered all the counter arguments. considered all the counter arguments. considered all the counter arguments. People try to get around it, but man, People try to get around it, but man, People try to get around it, but man, she is she is she is she is occupying a formal leadership she is occupying a formal leadership she is occupying a formal leadership role role role in in Israel at that time. Uh, Hulda, in in Israel at that time. Uh, Hulda, in in Israel at that time. Uh, Hulda, same thing. There's no the the author same thing. There's no the the author same thing. There's no the the author makes no makes no makes no He just kind of mentions her. Like, of He just kind of mentions her. Like, of He just kind of mentions her. Like, of course, yeah, they went to Hulda and, course, yeah, they went to Hulda and, course, yeah, they went to Hulda and, you know, you know, you know, uh, um, Josiah sent an elite delegation uh, um, Josiah sent an elite delegation uh, um, Josiah sent an elite delegation to go to Hulda to seek the Lord. And to go to Hulda to seek the Lord. And to go to Hulda to seek the Lord. And what's interesting is Jeremiah is in what's interesting is Jeremiah is in what's interesting is Jeremiah is in Jerusalem at that time. Jerusalem at that time. Jerusalem at that time. He He doesn't go to Jerusalem. Goes to He He doesn't go to Jerusalem. Goes to He He doesn't go to Jerusalem. Goes to Hulda. And she's like, "Here's the word Hulda. And she's like, "Here's the word Hulda. And she's like, "Here's the word of the Lord." And they move on. And, you of the Lord." And they move on. And, you of the Lord." And they move on. And, you know, big revolution happens. So, um, know, big revolution happens. So, um, know, big revolution happens. So, um, and yeah, and and Deborah, too. And and and yeah, and and Deborah, too. And and and yeah, and and Deborah, too. And and people say, "Well, they're not teachers. people say, "Well, they're not teachers. people say, "Well, they're not teachers. You know, the priests were the You know, the priests were the You know, the priests were the teachers." And that's true. Priests were teachers." And that's true. Priests were teachers." And that's true. Priests were the commissioned commissioned teachers the commissioned commissioned teachers the commissioned commissioned teachers of the law, but prophets held the most of the law, but prophets held the most of the law, but prophets held the most authority in ancient Israel, which was authority in ancient Israel, which was authority in ancient Israel, which was kind of very countercultural. I mean, kind of very countercultural. I mean, kind of very countercultural. I mean, you know, you have this famous scene in you know, you have this famous scene in you know, you have this famous scene in 2 Samuel 12 when Nathan comes and 2 Samuel 12 when Nathan comes and 2 Samuel 12 when Nathan comes and rebukes the king.

rebukes the king. rebukes the king. There's no other ancient Near East There's no other ancient Near East There's no other ancient Near East culture where the where the king would culture where the where the king would culture where the where the king would receive a rebuke from anybody, you know? receive a rebuke from anybody, you know? receive a rebuke from anybody, you know? But here the prophets were king makers But here the prophets were king makers But here the prophets were king makers and king breakers. And so, the fact that and king breakers. And so, the fact that and king breakers. And so, the fact that you have two female prophets and the you have two female prophets and the you have two female prophets and the biblical author doesn't hem and haw or, biblical author doesn't hem and haw or, biblical author doesn't hem and haw or, you know, they just kind of mention you know, they just kind of mention you know, they just kind of mention them. That that's Again, I don't want to them. That that's Again, I don't want to them. That that's Again, I don't want to end the discussion. Women can be elders, end the discussion. Women can be elders, end the discussion. Women can be elders, whatever. But like, that's like, well, whatever. But like, that's like, well, whatever. But like, that's like, well, if God had etched into creation only men if God had etched into creation only men if God had etched into creation only men should hold authority over women, should hold authority over women, should hold authority over women, even these few clear exceptions are even these few clear exceptions are even these few clear exceptions are like, well, like, well, like, well, either either this is sinful, Deborah either either this is sinful, Deborah either either this is sinful, Deborah and Hulda, or maybe God didn't lay this and Hulda, or maybe God didn't lay this and Hulda, or maybe God didn't lay this out out out in in creation to be upheld for every in in creation to be upheld for every in in creation to be upheld for every every place and all time. every place and all time. every place and all time. >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by Victory Beyond the Cup. So, church Victory Beyond the Cup. So, church Victory Beyond the Cup. So, church leaders, this summer, as you may know, leaders, this summer, as you may know, leaders, this summer, as you may know, the World Cup kicks off, and that's when the World Cup kicks off, and that's when the World Cup kicks off, and that's when more than 5 billion people are paying more than 5 billion people are paying more than 5 billion people are paying attention to the same moment. When that attention to the same moment. When that attention to the same moment. When that happens, it's not just a sports event, happens, it's not just a sports event, happens, it's not just a sports event, it's a leadership opportunity. And it's a leadership opportunity. And it's a leadership opportunity. And Heather Ready from Cru is here. So, Heather Ready from Cru is here. So, Heather Ready from Cru is here. So, Heather, what's Victory Beyond the Cup?

Heather, what's Victory Beyond the Cup? Heather, what's Victory Beyond the Cup? >> Yeah, well, Victory Beyond the Cup is >> Yeah, well, Victory Beyond the Cup is >> Yeah, well, Victory Beyond the Cup is really about helping churches and really about helping churches and really about helping churches and believers recognize that this is a rare believers recognize that this is a rare believers recognize that this is a rare cultural moment that can be used for cultural moment that can be used for cultural moment that can be used for kingdom impact. Your neighbors, your kingdom impact. Your neighbors, your kingdom impact. Your neighbors, your co-workers, your communities will co-workers, your communities will co-workers, your communities will already be gathered and watching. And already be gathered and watching. And already be gathered and watching. And so, Victory Beyond the Cup helps pastors so, Victory Beyond the Cup helps pastors so, Victory Beyond the Cup helps pastors and believers steward that moment well. and believers steward that moment well. and believers steward that moment well. Not by creating or launching new Not by creating or launching new Not by creating or launching new programs, but by using simple gatherings programs, but by using simple gatherings programs, but by using simple gatherings like watch parties to build like watch parties to build like watch parties to build relationships and open doors for gospel relationships and open doors for gospel relationships and open doors for gospel conversations. conversations. conversations. >> So, I mean, most church leaders kind of >> So, I mean, most church leaders kind of >> So, I mean, most church leaders kind of get this when it comes to the Super get this when it comes to the Super get this when it comes to the Super Bowl. We think that's a big event, but Bowl. We think that's a big event, but Bowl. We think that's a big event, but this is like exponentially bigger. So, this is like exponentially bigger. So, this is like exponentially bigger. So, how can church leaders lean into the how can church leaders lean into the how can church leaders lean into the World Cup? World Cup? World Cup? >> Yeah, so we've created two free kits. >> Yeah, so we've created two free kits. >> Yeah, so we've created two free kits. They're free, and there's a pastor's kit They're free, and there's a pastor's kit They're free, and there's a pastor's kit that helps you cast vision and equip that helps you cast vision and equip that helps you cast vision and equip your church. And then there's a host kit your church. And then there's a host kit your church. And then there's a host kit that can be used to open your home, that can be used to open your home, that can be used to open your home, gather friends, and create space for gather friends, and create space for gather friends, and create space for meaningful conversations. It's really meaningful conversations. It's really meaningful conversations. It's really about making it simple for people to about making it simple for people to about making it simple for people to live out their faith in this incredible live out their faith in this incredible live out their faith in this incredible moment where people are already moment where people are already moment where people are already gathering. gathering. gathering. >> Well, that's good news for churches. And >> Well, that's good news for churches. And >> Well, that's good news for churches. And if you're ready to help your people step if you're ready to help your people step if you're ready to help your people step into really what truly is a global into really what truly is a global into really what truly is a global moment with intention and purpose, moment with intention and purpose, moment with intention and purpose, here's what you can do. Visit here's what you can do. Visit here's what you can do. Visit victorybeyondthecup.com victorybeyondthecup.com victorybeyondthecup.com and download the free kits. That is and download the free kits. That is and download the free kits. That is victorybeyondthecup.com.

So, then we get to the New Testament So, then we get to the New Testament because almost everybody who listens to because almost everybody who listens to because almost everybody who listens to this, you know, would be New Testament this, you know, would be New Testament this, you know, would be New Testament Christians, or at least their, you know, Christians, or at least their, you know, Christians, or at least their, you know, Christian background, that kind of Christian background, that kind of Christian background, that kind of thing. And that that really did change thing. And that that really did change thing. And that that really did change the conversation, I think. What did you the conversation, I think. What did you the conversation, I think. What did you discover? Do you want to Where do you discover? Do you want to Where do you discover? Do you want to Where do you want to start in the New Testament? With want to start in the New Testament? With want to start in the New Testament? With Jesus' ministry or where? Jesus' ministry or where? Jesus' ministry or where? >> Yeah. Yeah, briefly with Jesus. I mean, >> Yeah. Yeah, briefly with Jesus. I mean, >> Yeah. Yeah, briefly with Jesus. I mean, uh um by the time I got to the Gospels, uh um by the time I got to the Gospels, uh um by the time I got to the Gospels, I was still like, man, I'm seeing things I was still like, man, I'm seeing things I was still like, man, I'm seeing things here that I didn't see before. And I'm here that I didn't see before. And I'm here that I didn't see before. And I'm kind of like, hmm. kind of like, hmm. kind of like, hmm. This is This is interesting, but I This is This is interesting, but I This is This is interesting, but I wasn't I still was like I'm still not wasn't I still was like I'm still not wasn't I still was like I'm still not sure where I'm going to land. The sure where I'm going to land. The sure where I'm going to land. The ministry of Jesus, ministry of Jesus, ministry of Jesus, I You know, I I've never I You know, I I've never I You know, I I've never up until my study, I I was never really up until my study, I I was never really up until my study, I I was never really impressed with the impressed with the impressed with the egalitarian arguments I'd see, just the egalitarian arguments I'd see, just the egalitarian arguments I'd see, just the ones that kind of came across in ones that kind of came across in ones that kind of came across in passing. They're like, well, Mary passing. They're like, well, Mary passing. They're like, well, Mary Magdalene, you know, she Magdalene, you know, she Magdalene, you know, she preached the resurrection. She's the preached the resurrection. She's the preached the resurrection. She's the apostle to the apostles. And I'm like, apostle to the apostles. And I'm like, apostle to the apostles. And I'm like, well, well, well, I don't know a single complementarian I don't know a single complementarian I don't know a single complementarian who says, no, women can't talk about the who says, no, women can't talk about the who says, no, women can't talk about the resurrection in front of men. Like, is resurrection in front of men. Like, is resurrection in front of men. Like, is that Is that I don't that Is that I don't that Is that I don't I don't think that's what they were I don't think that's what they were I don't think that's what they were saying. And well, you know, Jesus really saying. And well, you know, Jesus really saying. And well, you know, Jesus really valued women. And like, of course, valued women. And like, of course, valued women. And like, of course, non-leaders are valued, too, you know.

non-leaders are valued, too, you know. non-leaders are valued, too, you know. That doesn't mean they should be That doesn't mean they should be That doesn't mean they should be ordained or whatever. ordained or whatever. ordained or whatever. But when I looked deeper into it, But when I looked deeper into it, But when I looked deeper into it, there's some interesting things going on there's some interesting things going on there's some interesting things going on in the Gospels, the way the gospel in the Gospels, the way the gospel in the Gospels, the way the gospel writers retell Jesus' interaction with writers retell Jesus' interaction with writers retell Jesus' interaction with women, you know. Kind of like the Old women, you know. Kind of like the Old women, you know. Kind of like the Old Testament, often times women are Testament, often times women are Testament, often times women are modeling the radical courage, sacrifice, modeling the radical courage, sacrifice, modeling the radical courage, sacrifice, faithfulness that Jesus demands, the faithfulness that Jesus demands, the faithfulness that Jesus demands, the rigorous cruciform way of Jesus. rigorous cruciform way of Jesus. rigorous cruciform way of Jesus. Um women are Again, they don't appear as Um women are Again, they don't appear as Um women are Again, they don't appear as often, but when they do, they're they're often, but when they do, they're they're often, but when they do, they're they're they're modern modeling it often times they're modern modeling it often times they're modern modeling it often times in contrast to the 12 who are doing not in contrast to the 12 who are doing not in contrast to the 12 who are doing not that, you know. that, you know. that, you know. >> They're getting it wrong. It's like, I >> They're getting it wrong. It's like, I >> They're getting it wrong. It's like, I didn't mean to cut off the ear, but I didn't mean to cut off the ear, but I didn't mean to cut off the ear, but I got so mad, you know. got so mad, you know. got so mad, you know. >> So, I you know, again, I don't want to >> So, I you know, again, I don't want to >> So, I you know, again, I don't want to draw a straight line between that and draw a straight line between that and draw a straight line between that and leadership, but it's like, wow, okay. leadership, but it's like, wow, okay. leadership, but it's like, wow, okay. This is still part of this unfolding This is still part of this unfolding This is still part of this unfolding redemptive story. But there is one place redemptive story. But there is one place redemptive story. But there is one place that really caught my attention. The one that really caught my attention. The one that really caught my attention. The one place where Jesus place where Jesus place where Jesus comes comes comes as close as he comes to talking directly as close as he comes to talking directly as close as he comes to talking directly about leadership is in Mark 10 and the about leadership is in Mark 10 and the about leadership is in Mark 10 and the parallels parallels parallels where James and John want to occupy where James and John want to occupy where James and John want to occupy positions of leadership in God's kingdom positions of leadership in God's kingdom positions of leadership in God's kingdom and and and and and and and then so Jesus gives him his kind of and then so Jesus gives him his kind of and then so Jesus gives him his kind of kingdom perspective on authority.

kingdom perspective on authority. kingdom perspective on authority. And he says And he says And he says you know, the Gentiles lord it over you, you know, the Gentiles lord it over you, you know, the Gentiles lord it over you, but that's not going to be this way in but that's not going to be this way in but that's not going to be this way in my kingdom. It's going to be the my kingdom. It's going to be the my kingdom. It's going to be the servant, the one who serves is greater servant, the one who serves is greater servant, the one who serves is greater than the one who is served. It's like, than the one who is served. It's like, than the one who is served. It's like, okay, so Jesus sees serving as a key okay, so Jesus sees serving as a key okay, so Jesus sees serving as a key component of of of leadership. component of of of leadership. component of of of leadership. Who's serving in the Gospels? And here's Who's serving in the Gospels? And here's Who's serving in the Gospels? And here's what I did, I've never seen this before what I did, I've never seen this before what I did, I've never seen this before and and um and and um and and um there's a couple articles that kind of there's a couple articles that kind of there's a couple articles that kind of pointed out in passing, but pointed out in passing, but pointed out in passing, but the only two the only two the only two followers of Jesus who serve in in followers of Jesus who serve in in followers of Jesus who serve in in Mark's Gospel Mark's Gospel Mark's Gospel are are occur at both ends of the are are occur at both ends of the are are occur at both ends of the Gospels. Gospels. Gospels. Peter's mother-in-law is healed, serves Peter's mother-in-law is healed, serves Peter's mother-in-law is healed, serves Jesus, and at the very end, Mark 15, uh Jesus, and at the very end, Mark 15, uh Jesus, and at the very end, Mark 15, uh you have the Galilean women who followed you have the Galilean women who followed you have the Galilean women who followed Jesus and served him. That word diakonia Jesus and served him. That word diakonia Jesus and served him. That word diakonia diakoneo diakoneo diakoneo is only used is only used is only used in describing people other than Jesus, in describing people other than Jesus, in describing people other than Jesus, only used in these two places, and both only used in these two places, and both only used in these two places, and both times they're describing women times they're describing women times they're describing women bookending the entire Gospel, and at the bookending the entire Gospel, and at the bookending the entire Gospel, and at the heart of this Gospel is Mark 10, Jesus heart of this Gospel is Mark 10, Jesus heart of this Gospel is Mark 10, Jesus overturning the kind of hierarchical overturning the kind of hierarchical overturning the kind of hierarchical structure in the Greco-Roman society. So structure in the Greco-Roman society. So structure in the Greco-Roman society. So so that's where I'm like, okay, that so that's where I'm like, okay, that so that's where I'm like, okay, that Does he call them elders? No. Does that Does he call them elders? No. Does that Does he call them elders? No. Does that determine the determine the determine the Does that Are Do we end the discussion?

Does that Are Do we end the discussion? Does that Are Do we end the discussion? No, but No, but No, but women were there therefore, according to women were there therefore, according to women were there therefore, according to Jesus' definition of leadership, the Jesus' definition of leadership, the Jesus' definition of leadership, the only ones modeling only ones modeling only ones modeling leadership quite type qualities in in in leadership quite type qualities in in in leadership quite type qualities in in in the Gospels. So the Gospels. So the Gospels. So that got me that got me that got me that got the wheels turning, but for me that got the wheels turning, but for me that got the wheels turning, but for me it was really uh chapter 4 and chapter 5 it was really uh chapter 4 and chapter 5 it was really uh chapter 4 and chapter 5 where I talk about leadership in the where I talk about leadership in the where I talk about leadership in the early church and then Romans 16 where I early church and then Romans 16 where I early church and then Romans 16 where I talk about Phoebe, Priscilla, and and talk about Phoebe, Priscilla, and and talk about Phoebe, Priscilla, and and Junia. I'm like, uh I I think you know, Junia. I'm like, uh I I think you know, Junia. I'm like, uh I I think you know, I think there's women doing some I think there's women doing some I think there's women doing some leadership stuff in the church, you leadership stuff in the church, you leadership stuff in the church, you know. know. know. >> Uh-huh. Well, let's go there. Let's talk >> Uh-huh. Well, let's go there. Let's talk >> Uh-huh. Well, let's go there. Let's talk about the early church. So, I mean, I about the early church. So, I mean, I about the early church. So, I mean, I think anybody would say Jesus honored think anybody would say Jesus honored think anybody would say Jesus honored and elevated women. I mean, from the and elevated women. I mean, from the and elevated women. I mean, from the Samaritan woman to Mary Magdalene, and Samaritan woman to Mary Magdalene, and Samaritan woman to Mary Magdalene, and then there's that that little verse in then there's that that little verse in then there's that that little verse in Luke that says it was the women who Luke that says it was the women who Luke that says it was the women who supported him financially, supported him financially, supported him financially, the whole patronage thing, and then you the whole patronage thing, and then you the whole patronage thing, and then you can move into the New Testament church, can move into the New Testament church, can move into the New Testament church, and Lydia was probably a patron of the and Lydia was probably a patron of the and Lydia was probably a patron of the Apostle Paul, et cetera. So, So, where Apostle Paul, et cetera. So, So, where Apostle Paul, et cetera. So, So, where where does that go in the early church?

where does that go in the early church? where does that go in the early church? >> Yeah. That >> Yeah. That >> Yeah. That So, So, So, this was a chapter I didn't plan on this was a chapter I didn't plan on this was a chapter I didn't plan on writing, and it might be the most writing, and it might be the most writing, and it might be the most important chapter in my book, at least important chapter in my book, at least important chapter in my book, at least more significant to my argument. It's more significant to my argument. It's more significant to my argument. It's one that I don't often see explored as one that I don't often see explored as one that I don't often see explored as often in the conversation. So, I wrote a often in the conversation. So, I wrote a often in the conversation. So, I wrote a whole chapter. I wanted to dive into whole chapter. I wanted to dive into whole chapter. I wanted to dive into what was the early church like, the what was the early church like, the what was the early church like, the first-century house churches. first-century house churches. first-century house churches. What was leadership like, you know? I What was leadership like, you know? I What was leadership like, you know? I just assumed that Paul had an ironed-out just assumed that Paul had an ironed-out just assumed that Paul had an ironed-out structure. You have senior pastor, structure. You have senior pastor, structure. You have senior pastor, elders, deacons. elders, deacons. elders, deacons. Um and you you know, you read 1 Timothy, Um and you you know, you read 1 Timothy, Um and you you know, you read 1 Timothy, Titus, and it seems, you know, yeah, Titus, and it seems, you know, yeah, Titus, and it seems, you know, yeah, here's the leadership structure that here's the leadership structure that here's the leadership structure that Paul's working with. But what I found Paul's working with. But what I found Paul's working with. But what I found was it was way more was it was way more was it was way more fluid and and and and messy and not so fluid and and and and messy and not so fluid and and and and messy and not so ironed-out. Uh Paul only mentions ironed-out. Uh Paul only mentions ironed-out. Uh Paul only mentions overseers and elders in three of his 13 overseers and elders in three of his 13 overseers and elders in three of his 13 letters. I never even knew that. Um letters. I never even knew that. Um letters. I never even knew that. Um Philippians, Titus, and Timothy, 1 Philippians, Titus, and Timothy, 1 Philippians, Titus, and Timothy, 1 Timothy. But he identifies and describes Timothy. But he identifies and describes Timothy. But he identifies and describes leaders leaders leaders all throughout his letters. He'll use all throughout his letters. He'll use all throughout his letters. He'll use other terms like um those who manage or other terms like um those who manage or other terms like um those who manage or care for the church, the Greek word care for the church, the Greek word care for the church, the Greek word proistemi. He talks about co-workers. He proistemi. He talks about co-workers. He proistemi. He talks about co-workers. He He talks about those who work hard in He talks about those who work hard in He talks about those who work hard in the gospel, which seems Well, that's the gospel, which seems Well, that's the gospel, which seems Well, that's just a Well, that's Okay, they work just a Well, that's Okay, they work just a Well, that's Okay, they work hard, but in almost every case, and hard, but in almost every case, and hard, but in almost every case, and maybe every case, when he identifies maybe every case, when he identifies maybe every case, when he identifies somebody as working hard in the gospel, somebody as working hard in the gospel, somebody as working hard in the gospel, when we corroborate evidence, like we when we corroborate evidence, like we when we corroborate evidence, like we look at that that person elsewhere, look at that that person elsewhere, look at that that person elsewhere, they're all leaders, you know? And in they're all leaders, you know? And in they're all leaders, you know? And in four in four places in Romans 16, he four in four places in Romans 16, he four in four places in Romans 16, he identifies women who are also working identifies women who are also working identifies women who are also working hard in the gospel. If he's not hard in the gospel. If he's not hard in the gospel. If he's not describing leaders there, it's the only

describing leaders there, it's the only describing leaders there, it's the only place where this phrase isn't describing place where this phrase isn't describing place where this phrase isn't describing a leader. a leader. a leader. Or Paul's favorite leadership term that Or Paul's favorite leadership term that Or Paul's favorite leadership term that he uses most often of of himself and he uses most often of of himself and he uses most often of of himself and other apostles are is the word servant. other apostles are is the word servant. other apostles are is the word servant. Which makes sense. Mark 10 is the one Which makes sense. Mark 10 is the one Which makes sense. Mark 10 is the one who serves. So, who serves. So, who serves. So, this is where I think if we come and this is where I think if we come and this is where I think if we come and this is this is this is this is where I even change the this is where I even change the this is where I even change the questions I was asking. If we come to questions I was asking. If we come to questions I was asking. If we come to this this this issue saying, "Well, show me where women issue saying, "Well, show me where women issue saying, "Well, show me where women are elders." are elders." are elders." I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, that's a that's a question, but elder is that's a that's a question, but elder is that's a that's a question, but elder is one of many leadership terms Paul uses one of many leadership terms Paul uses one of many leadership terms Paul uses and you and you and you you don't have a hierarchical structure you don't have a hierarchical structure you don't have a hierarchical structure of senior pastor, elders, and then of senior pastor, elders, and then of senior pastor, elders, and then deacons. We we have that in second deacons. We we have that in second deacons. We we have that in second century, Ignatius and others. So, I I, century, Ignatius and others. So, I I, century, Ignatius and others. So, I I, you know, you know, you know, but it's it's just not ironed out like but it's it's just not ironed out like but it's it's just not ironed out like that in the first century. So, so then I that in the first century. So, so then I that in the first century. So, so then I said, "Okay, we have a a wider said, "Okay, we have a a wider said, "Okay, we have a a wider vocabulary of leadership we can work vocabulary of leadership we can work vocabulary of leadership we can work with." And then when we bring that wide with." And then when we bring that wide with." And then when we bring that wide vocabulary to the text, we're like, "Oh, vocabulary to the text, we're like, "Oh, vocabulary to the text, we're like, "Oh, yeah, Paul is identifying yeah, Paul is identifying yeah, Paul is identifying women with leadership terminology in women with leadership terminology in women with leadership terminology in various places throughout the New various places throughout the New various places throughout the New Testament."

Testament." Testament." >> So, there were three in particular and >> So, there were three in particular and >> So, there were three in particular and hope I got this right, Phoebe, hope I got this right, Phoebe, hope I got this right, Phoebe, Priscilla, and Junia. Priscilla, and Junia. Priscilla, and Junia. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That were I mean, you even put Junia in >> That were I mean, you even put Junia in >> That were I mean, you even put Junia in the cover of your book, the title of the cover of your book, the title of the cover of your book, the title of your book. But what was in particular your book. But what was in particular your book. But what was in particular about those three women, Phoebe? Because about those three women, Phoebe? Because about those three women, Phoebe? Because all of the arguments are Mary Magdalene all of the arguments are Mary Magdalene all of the arguments are Mary Magdalene and you know, so on and so forth. So, and you know, so on and so forth. So, and you know, so on and so forth. So, what was it about those three or even what was it about those three or even what was it about those three or even Chloe, etc.? What was interesting about Chloe, etc.? What was interesting about Chloe, etc.? What was interesting about Phoebe, Priscilla, and Junia? Phoebe, Priscilla, and Junia? Phoebe, Priscilla, and Junia? >> Yeah. So, >> Yeah. So, >> Yeah. So, these are three of I think there's 10 these are three of I think there's 10 these are three of I think there's 10 women that are named in Romans 16 in a women that are named in Romans 16 in a women that are named in Romans 16 in a list of so many greetings and list of so many greetings and list of so many greetings and I mean, I've even had somebody recently I mean, I've even had somebody recently I mean, I've even had somebody recently tell me on social media, "Well, Romans tell me on social media, "Well, Romans tell me on social media, "Well, Romans 16 is insignificant and Paul's just 16 is insignificant and Paul's just 16 is insignificant and Paul's just greeting a bunch of people. I'm like, greeting a bunch of people. I'm like, greeting a bunch of people. I'm like, "Yeah, you don't understand ancient "Yeah, you don't understand ancient "Yeah, you don't understand ancient letter writing." letter writing." letter writing." The end of a letter in the 1st century, The end of a letter in the 1st century, The end of a letter in the 1st century, where you greet people, is one of the where you greet people, is one of the where you greet people, is one of the most crucial parts of a letter. It most crucial parts of a letter. It most crucial parts of a letter. It captures the theological themes of the captures the theological themes of the captures the theological themes of the letter. It's It's really significant. letter. It's It's really significant. letter. It's It's really significant. So, So, So, so this is not just a fringe appendix to so this is not just a fringe appendix to so this is not just a fringe appendix to Paul's mighty Paul's mighty Paul's mighty Roman letter, you know? It's like this Roman letter, you know? It's like this Roman letter, you know? It's like this is This is really crucial to his how he is This is really crucial to his how he is This is really crucial to his how he sees ministry. And sees ministry. And sees ministry. And yeah, he names a bunch of women, three yeah, he names a bunch of women, three yeah, he names a bunch of women, three in particular. He gives some pretty in particular. He gives some pretty in particular. He gives some pretty interesting descriptions. And here's interesting descriptions. And here's interesting descriptions. And here's where I just look at the What's the where I just look at the What's the where I just look at the What's the terminology Paul's using when he's terminology Paul's using when he's terminology Paul's using when he's describing Phoebe and and Priscilla and describing Phoebe and and Priscilla and describing Phoebe and and Priscilla and Junia and Junia and Junia and my conclusion is, and I try to be my conclusion is, and I try to be my conclusion is, and I try to be Carrie, I try to be so like, "Okay, what Carrie, I try to be so like, "Okay, what Carrie, I try to be so like, "Okay, what about this? What about that?" Like, about this? What about that?" Like, about this? What about that?" Like, weigh everything.

weigh everything. weigh everything. And at the end of the day, if you take And at the end of the day, if you take And at the end of the day, if you take the cumulative case of these three the cumulative case of these three the cumulative case of these three women, I think all three women, I think all three women, I think all three were were doing leadership things in the were were doing leadership things in the were were doing leadership things in the church, you know? Um Phoebe, okay, so church, you know? Um Phoebe, okay, so church, you know? Um Phoebe, okay, so Phoebe, Phoebe, Phoebe, she's called a she's called a she's called a a patron or benefactor. She's a wealthy a patron or benefactor. She's a wealthy a patron or benefactor. She's a wealthy woman. She's called a servant of the woman. She's called a servant of the woman. She's called a servant of the church in Cenchrea. church in Cenchrea. church in Cenchrea. Um And so again, servant could mean Um And so again, servant could mean Um And so again, servant could mean somebody somebody somebody Paul likes to use that as a leadership Paul likes to use that as a leadership Paul likes to use that as a leadership term. The The word itself doesn't mean term. The The word itself doesn't mean term. The The word itself doesn't mean leadership, so we're not We're not sure leadership, so we're not We're not sure leadership, so we're not We're not sure here. here. here. But as a wealthy, high-status woman But as a wealthy, high-status woman But as a wealthy, high-status woman who's also the servant of the church, who's also the servant of the church, who's also the servant of the church, man, that that man, that that man, that that you know, I'm like, "Okay, I'm I'm still you know, I'm like, "Okay, I'm I'm still you know, I'm like, "Okay, I'm I'm still trying to push back at myself." I'm trying to push back at myself." I'm trying to push back at myself." I'm like, like, like, "Okay, she "Okay, she "Okay, she Phoebe would have been seen as the Phoebe would have been seen as the Phoebe would have been seen as the leader in her Greco-Roman world, because leader in her Greco-Roman world, because leader in her Greco-Roman world, because if you had high status, you're wealthy, if you had high status, you're wealthy, if you had high status, you're wealthy, she owns a home, you know, um she owns a home, you know, um she owns a home, you know, um if she's funding other people, like, she if she's funding other people, like, she if she's funding other people, like, she would have been viewed as a as a leader. would have been viewed as a as a leader. would have been viewed as a as a leader. Would she have been viewed that way in Would she have been viewed that way in Would she have been viewed that way in the church? Well, the fact that Paul the church? Well, the fact that Paul the church? Well, the fact that Paul calls her not just a wealthy, calls her not just a wealthy, calls her not just a wealthy, high-status woman, but she's a servant high-status woman, but she's a servant high-status woman, but she's a servant of the church. She's not just holding of the church. She's not just holding of the church. She's not just holding her authority over people, you know?

her authority over people, you know? her authority over people, you know? It's like It's like It's like >> And by servant, is that doulos? Is that >> And by servant, is that doulos? Is that >> And by servant, is that doulos? Is that what Paul called himself? That's the what Paul called himself? That's the what Paul called himself? That's the word he word he word he used. used. used. >> diakonos. >> diakonos. >> diakonos. >> Diakonos. >> Diakonos. >> Diakonos. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's a word >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's a word >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's a word he often uses, yeah, to describe he often uses, yeah, to describe he often uses, yeah, to describe himself, to describe Jesus, you know. It himself, to describe Jesus, you know. It himself, to describe Jesus, you know. It Again, the word itself, servant, doesn't Again, the word itself, servant, doesn't Again, the word itself, servant, doesn't always mean leader. He just likes to always mean leader. He just likes to always mean leader. He just likes to refer to leaders by by that term. refer to leaders by by that term. refer to leaders by by that term. But then the big one for me, too, is But then the big one for me, too, is But then the big one for me, too, is like Phoebe was the letter carrier. like Phoebe was the letter carrier. like Phoebe was the letter carrier. She's the one that carried the letter She's the one that carried the letter She's the one that carried the letter to the Roman church. And that's nobody to the Roman church. And that's nobody to the Roman church. And that's nobody disputes that. But then I did a whole disputes that. But then I did a whole disputes that. But then I did a whole deep dive on what what what was it like deep dive on what what what was it like deep dive on what what what was it like to carry a letter in the first century? to carry a letter in the first century? to carry a letter in the first century? And there's been a lot of written on And there's been a lot of written on And there's been a lot of written on this. Cicero talks about it a lot. this. Cicero talks about it a lot. this. Cicero talks about it a lot. The letter carrier The letter carrier The letter carrier would have not only carried the letter, would have not only carried the letter, would have not only carried the letter, not only have read the letter, but not only have read the letter, but not only have read the letter, but scholars in this area like to talk about scholars in this area like to talk about scholars in this area like to talk about performing the letter, embodying the performing the letter, embodying the performing the letter, embodying the letter, hand gestures, intonation. You letter, hand gestures, intonation. You letter, hand gestures, intonation. You you are responsible for embodying the you are responsible for embodying the you are responsible for embodying the message of the one who wrote the letter. message of the one who wrote the letter. message of the one who wrote the letter. And And And and as Cicero talks about, he talks a and as Cicero talks about, he talks a and as Cicero talks about, he talks a lot about letter carriers in the first lot about letter carriers in the first lot about letter carriers in the first century, they would be put they century, they would be put they century, they would be put they it was it was it was not not not uncommon for the letter carrier to be uncommon for the letter carrier to be uncommon for the letter carrier to be called upon to explain things. They called upon to explain things. They called upon to explain things. They would ask questions. What about this?

would ask questions. What about this? would ask questions. What about this? What about that? So, they had to really What about that? So, they had to really What about that? So, they had to really be familiar with the letter. And this be familiar with the letter. And this be familiar with the letter. And this letter is crucial to Paul's ministry. If letter is crucial to Paul's ministry. If letter is crucial to Paul's ministry. If we take history seriously, I mean, he we take history seriously, I mean, he we take history seriously, I mean, he she probably sat down, they probably she probably sat down, they probably she probably sat down, they probably went over it over it. She she probably went over it over it. She she probably went over it over it. She she probably knew it inside and out. Because she's knew it inside and out. Because she's knew it inside and out. Because she's going to have to not just monotone, you going to have to not just monotone, you going to have to not just monotone, you know, read the letter. She's going to know, read the letter. She's going to know, read the letter. She's going to have to perform the letter to the have to perform the letter to the have to perform the letter to the church. And church. And church. And possibly be be called upon to answer possibly be be called upon to answer possibly be be called upon to answer questions and offer an interpretation. questions and offer an interpretation. questions and offer an interpretation. Uh, did she answer questions? Did she Uh, did she answer questions? Did she Uh, did she answer questions? Did she offer an interpretation? The text offer an interpretation? The text offer an interpretation? The text doesn't say. What we do know is that doesn't say. What we do know is that doesn't say. What we do know is that Paul had no problem putting this woman Paul had no problem putting this woman Paul had no problem putting this woman in a position where she very well could in a position where she very well could in a position where she very well could have been called upon to ask to answer have been called upon to ask to answer have been called upon to ask to answer and interpret the letter. So, if Paul and interpret the letter. So, if Paul and interpret the letter. So, if Paul was was was very much against women interpreting very much against women interpreting very much against women interpreting the Ro- you know, Romans in a public the Ro- you know, Romans in a public the Ro- you know, Romans in a public setting, he wouldn't have put her in setting, he wouldn't have put her in setting, he wouldn't have put her in that position. So, all that to say and that position. So, all that to say and that position. So, all that to say and I'm being a little long but I got to I'm being a little long but I got to I'm being a little long but I got to Well, sum it up, you know, Well, sum it up, you know, Well, sum it up, you know, you kind of take all these cumulative you kind of take all these cumulative you kind of take all these cumulative things with Phoebe and it's like I just things with Phoebe and it's like I just things with Phoebe and it's like I just the weight of evidence suggests that she the weight of evidence suggests that she the weight of evidence suggests that she would have been viewed as a leader in would have been viewed as a leader in would have been viewed as a leader in the church. And same thing with the church. And same thing with the church. And same thing with Priscilla and and of course Junia who he Priscilla and and of course Junia who he Priscilla and and of course Junia who he calls an apostle.

calls an apostle. calls an apostle. >> Mhm. So, that was just the same word he >> Mhm. So, that was just the same word he >> Mhm. So, that was just the same word he would use for the other apostles. He would use for the other apostles. He would use for the other apostles. He called her apostle. called her apostle. called her apostle. >> It's the same word for apostle. There's >> It's the same word for apostle. There's >> It's the same word for apostle. There's two major two major two major uh debates. There used to be three uh debates. There used to be three uh debates. There used to be three debates. Well, one of one one of the debates. Well, one of one one of the debates. Well, one of one one of the first debates was whether Junia is even first debates was whether Junia is even first debates was whether Junia is even a woman. That's been pretty much settled a woman. That's been pretty much settled a woman. That's been pretty much settled now. now. now. I don't There's like one scholar I found I don't There's like one scholar I found I don't There's like one scholar I found that doesn't think she was a woman. that doesn't think she was a woman. that doesn't think she was a woman. Um the two debates are whether he says Um the two debates are whether he says Um the two debates are whether he says that she is an apostle or highly that she is an apostle or highly that she is an apostle or highly esteemed esteemed esteemed in the eyes of the male apostles. in the eyes of the male apostles. in the eyes of the male apostles. And I worked through the Greek grammar And I worked through the Greek grammar And I worked through the Greek grammar there and there's been a lot written on there and there's been a lot written on there and there's been a lot written on this and I kind of went back and forth this and I kind of went back and forth this and I kind of went back and forth back and forth, but the more I looked at back and forth, but the more I looked at back and forth, but the more I looked at how this phrase is used throughout Greek how this phrase is used throughout Greek how this phrase is used throughout Greek literature, literature, literature, the weight of evidence points to the weight of evidence points to the weight of evidence points to Paul identifying her as an apostle. In Paul identifying her as an apostle. In Paul identifying her as an apostle. In fact, fact, fact, you know, I'm not I don't I'm not fluent you know, I'm not I don't I'm not fluent you know, I'm not I don't I'm not fluent in Greek. You're not fluent in Greek. in Greek. You're not fluent in Greek. in Greek. You're not fluent in Greek. Probably nobody is listening. Probably nobody is listening. Probably nobody is listening. Well, they can't. They you know, Koine Well, they can't. They you know, Koine Well, they can't. They you know, Koine Greek is not their native tongue, okay?

Greek is not their native tongue, okay? Greek is not their native tongue, okay? Even Even Even >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> So, it's like all right. >> So, it's like all right. >> So, it's like all right. So, we try to try to analyze this So, we try to try to analyze this So, we try to try to analyze this ancient stuff, but then, you know, you ancient stuff, but then, you know, you ancient stuff, but then, you know, you look at some early fathers like look at some early fathers like look at some early fathers like Chrysostom who was a native Greek Chrysostom who was a native Greek Chrysostom who was a native Greek speaker. speaker. speaker. And he comes across Romans 16:70. He's And he comes across Romans 16:70. He's And he comes across Romans 16:70. He's like like like blown away. He's like, "Gosh, Paul is blown away. He's like, "Gosh, Paul is blown away. He's like, "Gosh, Paul is just praising Junia and she's not only, just praising Junia and she's not only, just praising Junia and she's not only, you know, you know, you know, an apostle, but she's highly esteemed as an apostle, but she's highly esteemed as an apostle, but she's highly esteemed as an apostle." So, he, a native Greek an apostle." So, he, a native Greek an apostle." So, he, a native Greek speaker, read this as, "Yeah, Paul, speaker, read this as, "Yeah, Paul, speaker, read this as, "Yeah, Paul, jeez." jeez." jeez." >> That's what it means. Right. >> That's what it means. Right. >> That's what it means. Right. >> And Chrysostom and probably most church >> And Chrysostom and probably most church >> And Chrysostom and probably most church fathers, they would have no problem fathers, they would have no problem fathers, they would have no problem saying, "Yeah, this woman is not an saying, "Yeah, this woman is not an saying, "Yeah, this woman is not an apostle." It's not like they were were apostle." It's not like they were were apostle." It's not like they were were okay with that, you know, they were kind okay with that, you know, they were kind okay with that, you know, they were kind of shocked by it, you know, so um of shocked by it, you know, so um of shocked by it, you know, so um yeah, so I I And then some people say, yeah, so I I And then some people say, yeah, so I I And then some people say, "Well, yeah, apostle just "Well, yeah, apostle just "Well, yeah, apostle just you know, she's not one of the 12." you know, she's not one of the 12." you know, she's not one of the 12." Like, "Well, obviously, neither is Paul. Like, "Well, obviously, neither is Paul. Like, "Well, obviously, neither is Paul. Neither is Apollos, but they're still Neither is Apollos, but they're still Neither is Apollos, but they're still apostles." Or maybe she's just like a apostles." Or maybe she's just like a apostles." Or maybe she's just like a missionary or a messenger. I'm like, missionary or a messenger. I'm like, missionary or a messenger. I'm like, there there's two passages where Paul there there's two passages where Paul there there's two passages where Paul refers to messengers from a church with refers to messengers from a church with refers to messengers from a church with the word apostolos, but um he says she's the word apostolos, but um he says she's the word apostolos, but um he says she's highly esteemed among the apostles, as highly esteemed among the apostles, as highly esteemed among the apostles, as many scholars point out. It just seems many scholars point out. It just seems many scholars point out. It just seems like she's like she's like she's he's identifying her as part of this he's identifying her as part of this he's identifying her as part of this group, not group, not group, not some generic reference to messengers of some generic reference to messengers of some generic reference to messengers of a church. So, yeah, I think, you know, a church. So, yeah, I think, you know, a church. So, yeah, I think, you know, it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a I think we have to wrestle with that I think we have to wrestle with that I think we have to wrestle with that passage for sure. I think the weight of passage for sure. I think the weight of passage for sure. I think the weight of evidence says he's he's identifying her evidence says he's he's identifying her evidence says he's he's identifying her as an apostle.

as an apostle. as an apostle. >> So, what I appreciate is, you know, what >> So, what I appreciate is, you know, what >> So, what I appreciate is, you know, what does the text do, which I think often does the text do, which I think often does the text do, which I think often gets overlooked because we focus on what gets overlooked because we focus on what gets overlooked because we focus on what the text says, if that makes sense. So, the text says, if that makes sense. So, the text says, if that makes sense. So, in the early church, here's how it was in the early church, here's how it was in the early church, here's how it was functioning, this is what they were functioning, this is what they were functioning, this is what they were doing. I I'd never thought about until doing. I I'd never thought about until doing. I I'd never thought about until this conversation that maybe the first this conversation that maybe the first this conversation that maybe the first time the letter of Romans was read aloud time the letter of Romans was read aloud time the letter of Romans was read aloud was through the lips of a woman. No, a was through the lips of a woman. No, a was through the lips of a woman. No, a woman read that for the first time. That woman read that for the first time. That woman read that for the first time. That is a new thought for me. But, and of is a new thought for me. But, and of is a new thought for me. But, and of course, everyone's waiting for this course, everyone's waiting for this course, everyone's waiting for this moment, moment, moment, "It is shameful even for a woman to "It is shameful even for a woman to "It is shameful even for a woman to speak in church, must have her head speak in church, must have her head speak in church, must have her head covered, you know, submit to your covered, you know, submit to your covered, you know, submit to your husbands." husbands." husbands." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> All of those passages that get quoted >> All of those passages that get quoted >> All of those passages that get quoted again and again. So, what is your take again and again. So, what is your take again and again. So, what is your take on those passages? And those have been on those passages? And those have been on those passages? And those have been well debated over the years. well debated over the years. well debated over the years. >> So, there's three passages, you >> So, there's three passages, you >> So, there's three passages, you mentioned them. First Corinthians 11, mentioned them. First Corinthians 11, mentioned them. First Corinthians 11, First Corinthians 14, and First Timothy First Corinthians 14, and First Timothy First Corinthians 14, and First Timothy 2. 2. 2. The first one we can The first one we can The first one we can cover quickly cover quickly cover quickly because First Corinthians 11, the whole because First Corinthians 11, the whole because First Corinthians 11, the whole head coverings passage, it actually head coverings passage, it actually head coverings passage, it actually doesn't really speak directly to doesn't really speak directly to doesn't really speak directly to women in leadership because the only two women in leadership because the only two women in leadership because the only two ministries mentioned, prayer and ministries mentioned, prayer and ministries mentioned, prayer and prophecy, prophecy, prophecy, Paul assumes women and men are doing Paul assumes women and men are doing Paul assumes women and men are doing that. He doesn't have any problem with that. He doesn't have any problem with that. He doesn't have any problem with that. Um, the only where where where the that. Um, the only where where where the that. Um, the only where where where the passage gets tricky is passage gets tricky is passage gets tricky is there's a debate about whether the uh there's a debate about whether the uh there's a debate about whether the uh the head covering represents uh the the head covering represents uh the the head covering represents uh the husband's authority over his wife. So, husband's authority over his wife. So, husband's authority over his wife. So, the the only the at most what we can say the the only the at most what we can say the the only the at most what we can say is that Paul is advocating for women

is that Paul is advocating for women is that Paul is advocating for women uh uh uh praying and prophesying, doing ministry praying and prophesying, doing ministry praying and prophesying, doing ministry in church while still being under the in church while still being under the in church while still being under the authority of their husbands, not under authority of their husbands, not under authority of their husbands, not under the authority of the authority of the authority of elders cuz some of my soft elders cuz some of my soft elders cuz some of my soft complementarian friends will say, "Yeah, complementarian friends will say, "Yeah, complementarian friends will say, "Yeah, see, you have male elders and women can see, you have male elders and women can see, you have male elders and women can teach and preach under that." And teach and preach under that." And teach and preach under that." And that may or may not be true, but this that may or may not be true, but this that may or may not be true, but this passage there's no elders any anywhere. passage there's no elders any anywhere. passage there's no elders any anywhere. So, so at most what we would say is um So, so at most what we would say is um So, so at most what we would say is um still recognizing a husband's authority still recognizing a husband's authority still recognizing a husband's authority over over his wife. But, over over his wife. But, over over his wife. But, I actually I actually I actually I the passage is far more complex than I the passage is far more complex than I the passage is far more complex than that. Verses And here I'll just that. Verses And here I'll just that. Verses And here I'll just reference people and we can go on to reference people and we can go on to reference people and we can go on to another one cuz I spent a lot of time in another one cuz I spent a lot of time in another one cuz I spent a lot of time in in in my book on this chapter, but he in in my book on this chapter, but he in in my book on this chapter, but he said he says all this early on, head said he says all this early on, head said he says all this early on, head coverings, man came from or women came coverings, man came from or women came coverings, man came from or women came from man, not man from women. from man, not man from women. from man, not man from women. But then he turns around in verse 11 and But then he turns around in verse 11 and But then he turns around in verse 11 and says, "However, in the Lord," says, "However, in the Lord," says, "However, in the Lord," it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, "man is women is not independent from "man is women is not independent from "man is women is not independent from man, man's not independent from women, man, man's not independent from women, man, man's not independent from women, for just as woman came from man, all men for just as woman came from man, all men for just as woman came from man, all men come from women." So, he kind of like come from women." So, he kind of like come from women." So, he kind of like it almost sounds like he disagrees.

it almost sounds like he disagrees. it almost sounds like he disagrees. Yeah, he flips it or at least he Yeah, he flips it or at least he Yeah, he flips it or at least he balances it out or gives another balances it out or gives another balances it out or gives another perspective. But he he he those first perspective. But he he he those first perspective. But he he he those first few words, "However, in the Lord," it's few words, "However, in the Lord," it's few words, "However, in the Lord," it's like, "Well, wait, so there's something like, "Well, wait, so there's something like, "Well, wait, so there's something that you have just been saying all that you have just been saying all that you have just been saying all along, Paul, that's not in the Lord? along, Paul, that's not in the Lord? along, Paul, that's not in the Lord? What does that mean?" What does that mean?" What does that mean?" Long story short, I I Paul is advocating Long story short, I I Paul is advocating Long story short, I I Paul is advocating that women should adhere to a social that women should adhere to a social that women should adhere to a social custom that does symbolize male custom that does symbolize male custom that does symbolize male authority, but then he turns around and authority, but then he turns around and authority, but then he turns around and gives kind of a new creation gives kind of a new creation gives kind of a new creation perspective. However, in the Lord perspective. However, in the Lord perspective. However, in the Lord we're we're we're you know, there is neither male nor you know, there is neither male nor you know, there is neither male nor female and we're all in Christ, you female and we're all in Christ, you female and we're all in Christ, you know, so um know, so um know, so um >> A little bit maybe like his marriage >> A little bit maybe like his marriage >> A little bit maybe like his marriage argument. It's like look, I wish you argument. It's like look, I wish you argument. It's like look, I wish you were all single and then we'd have were all single and then we'd have were all single and then we'd have population zero, but you know, for those population zero, but you know, for those population zero, but you know, for those of you who are burning up with desire, of you who are burning up with desire, of you who are burning up with desire, go ahead and get married. Just be go ahead and get married. Just be go ahead and get married. Just be careful, right? careful, right? careful, right? >> So that leaves us So that passage really >> So that leaves us So that passage really >> So that leaves us So that passage really doesn't doesn't doesn't it doesn't speak directly to the women it doesn't speak directly to the women it doesn't speak directly to the women in leadership question. First Timothy or in leadership question. First Timothy or in leadership question. First Timothy or sorry, 1 Corinthians 14, women be sorry, 1 Corinthians 14, women be sorry, 1 Corinthians 14, women be silent. Clearly Paul can't be saying silent. Clearly Paul can't be saying silent. Clearly Paul can't be saying women can't utter a peep in church women can't utter a peep in church women can't utter a peep in church because he just said they're praying and because he just said they're praying and because he just said they're praying and prophesying. So some people say Paul prophesying. So some people say Paul prophesying. So some people say Paul didn't even write these verses. I don't didn't even write these verses. I don't didn't even write these verses. I don't I don't think that's the best approach.

I don't think that's the best approach. I don't think that's the best approach. Um Um Um when I looked into that passage, this is when I looked into that passage, this is when I looked into that passage, this is 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, some of the key words there that cause some of the key words there that cause some of the key words there that cause people to people to people to you know, um you know, um you know, um stumble or get upset, you know, the you stumble or get upset, you know, the you stumble or get upset, you know, the you know, women be silent. You need to know, women be silent. You need to know, women be silent. You need to submit. Um sit down and learn. If you submit. Um sit down and learn. If you submit. Um sit down and learn. If you want to learn, go ask your husbands, you want to learn, go ask your husbands, you want to learn, go ask your husbands, you know. know. know. I I kind of just looked at all those I I kind of just looked at all those I I kind of just looked at all those kind of key words, silent and submit and kind of key words, silent and submit and kind of key words, silent and submit and learn and learn and learn and it's interesting. Paul's been using it's interesting. Paul's been using it's interesting. Paul's been using these words all along in 1 Corinthians these words all along in 1 Corinthians these words all along in 1 Corinthians 14. 14. 14. And so if we just use our standard And so if we just use our standard And so if we just use our standard hermeneutic that we learned in first hermeneutic that we learned in first hermeneutic that we learned in first year Bible college, like what does this year Bible college, like what does this year Bible college, like what does this mean word mean by the same author, mean word mean by the same author, mean word mean by the same author, hopefully in the same context. Like all hopefully in the same context. Like all hopefully in the same context. Like all throughout 1 Corinthians 14, he's been throughout 1 Corinthians 14, he's been throughout 1 Corinthians 14, he's been addressing disruptive speech. Uh addressing disruptive speech. Uh addressing disruptive speech. Uh speaking in tongues without an speaking in tongues without an speaking in tongues without an interpreter present or interrupting a interpreter present or interrupting a interpreter present or interrupting a prophet. Let you know, sit down and wait prophet. Let you know, sit down and wait prophet. Let you know, sit down and wait your turn and let people prophesy one by your turn and let people prophesy one by your turn and let people prophesy one by one and and then he uses all these same one and and then he uses all these same one and and then he uses all these same words to speak directly to the women. So words to speak directly to the women. So words to speak directly to the women. So I I think I I think I I think and this is one where I think and this is one where I think and this is one where I think to me this this interpretation was to me this this interpretation was to me this this interpretation was pretty clear. The The 1 Corinthians pretty clear. The The 1 Corinthians pretty clear. The The 1 Corinthians 11:1, that one's hard. We should We need 11:1, that one's hard. We should We need 11:1, that one's hard. We should We need to like, man, we need to land softly on to like, man, we need to land softly on to like, man, we need to land softly on what we think about 1 Corinthians 11.

what we think about 1 Corinthians 11. what we think about 1 Corinthians 11. This one just really made a lot of sense This one just really made a lot of sense This one just really made a lot of sense to me that based on how Paul's been to me that based on how Paul's been to me that based on how Paul's been using these words, Paul is addressing using these words, Paul is addressing using these words, Paul is addressing He's not telling women don't utter a He's not telling women don't utter a He's not telling women don't utter a peep. He's saying don't interrupt. Don't peep. He's saying don't interrupt. Don't peep. He's saying don't interrupt. Don't speak while another prophet is speaking speak while another prophet is speaking speak while another prophet is speaking because that's going to prevent learning because that's going to prevent learning because that's going to prevent learning from happening. I mean, just look at the from happening. I mean, just look at the from happening. I mean, just look at the few verses before. This is exactly what few verses before. This is exactly what few verses before. This is exactly what he's been saying on a general level. And he's been saying on a general level. And he's been saying on a general level. And here, he's probably addressing a here, he's probably addressing a here, he's probably addressing a situation where there was a group of situation where there was a group of situation where there was a group of women in particular that were um you women in particular that were um you women in particular that were um you know, interrupting prophets when they know, interrupting prophets when they know, interrupting prophets when they were prophesying. So, were prophesying. So, were prophesying. So, um um um >> And that's what was shameful? >> And that's what was shameful? >> And that's what was shameful? >> Yeah, because in that culture, it's >> Yeah, because in that culture, it's >> Yeah, because in that culture, it's you know, Paul's sensitive to his social you know, Paul's sensitive to his social you know, Paul's sensitive to his social context. context. context. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> All throughout his letters, he's he's >> All throughout his letters, he's he's >> All throughout his letters, he's he's he's he's he's you know, um even in 1 Corinthians 14 in you know, um even in 1 Corinthians 14 in you know, um even in 1 Corinthians 14 in that chapter, he's like, "What if an that chapter, he's like, "What if an that chapter, he's like, "What if an unbeliever comes in and sees" Like, he's unbeliever comes in and sees" Like, he's unbeliever comes in and sees" Like, he's concerned about how concerned about how concerned about how >> a lot of my ministry. It's like, "Hey, >> a lot of my ministry. It's like, "Hey, >> a lot of my ministry. It's like, "Hey, church, we got to pay attention. There's church, we got to pay attention. There's church, we got to pay attention. There's non-believers in the room. Like, come non-believers in the room. Like, come non-believers in the room. Like, come on. on. on. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Don't be the crazy people, okay? Like, I >> Don't be the crazy people, okay? Like, I >> Don't be the crazy people, okay? Like, I that that feels so much of my ministry that that feels so much of my ministry that that feels so much of my ministry over the years.

over the years. over the years. >> So, in the first century, and I I >> So, in the first century, and I I >> So, in the first century, and I I actually read there was Plutarch, a actually read there was Plutarch, a actually read there was Plutarch, a first-century writer, has a whole letter first-century writer, has a whole letter first-century writer, has a whole letter addressed to listening etiquette. addressed to listening etiquette. addressed to listening etiquette. And it it was shameful for anybody to And it it was shameful for anybody to And it it was shameful for anybody to interrupt anybody giving a public interrupt anybody giving a public interrupt anybody giving a public address. But, it would have been address. But, it would have been address. But, it would have been hyper shameful for a woman to cut off or hyper shameful for a woman to cut off or hyper shameful for a woman to cut off or interrupt a man interrupt a man interrupt a man uh in that social context. So, yeah, uh in that social context. So, yeah, uh in that social context. So, yeah, that would have that would have brought that would have that would have brought that would have that would have brought a lot of stain on the church. They would a lot of stain on the church. They would a lot of stain on the church. They would have people would have assumed that have people would have assumed that have people would have assumed that women are being, you know, just ruling women are being, you know, just ruling women are being, you know, just ruling over their husbands and husbands are not over their husbands and husbands are not over their husbands and husbands are not being good leaders whatever. Like, it being good leaders whatever. Like, it being good leaders whatever. Like, it would have really been missionally would have really been missionally would have really been missionally poor on the church to poor on the church to poor on the church to have that happening. So, yeah, I think have that happening. So, yeah, I think have that happening. So, yeah, I think it would have been extra shameful for it would have been extra shameful for it would have been extra shameful for women to be doing this. And Paul's women to be doing this. And Paul's women to be doing this. And Paul's sensitive to his cultural context. And sensitive to his cultural context. And sensitive to his cultural context. And that's I think that's why that's I think that's why that's I think that's why you know, he was singled in a mouth. you know, he was singled in a mouth. you know, he was singled in a mouth. >> Yeah, and culture shows up. I mean, I >> Yeah, and culture shows up. I mean, I >> Yeah, and culture shows up. I mean, I might be mixing my Old Testament stories might be mixing my Old Testament stories might be mixing my Old Testament stories here. This one isn't entirely fresh, but here. This one isn't entirely fresh, but here. This one isn't entirely fresh, but I think it was King David who went in I think it was King David who went in I think it was King David who went in uh and they had their uh their their uh and they had their uh their their uh and they had their uh their their their clothes torn off and their their clothes torn off and their their clothes torn off and their buttocks were exposed, and it's like buttocks were exposed, and it's like buttocks were exposed, and it's like that was bad, but we actually had to let that was bad, but we actually had to let that was bad, but we actually had to let them sit out in the wilderness until them sit out in the wilderness until them sit out in the wilderness until their beards grew back in because it's their beards grew back in because it's their beards grew back in because it's just so shameful just so shameful just so shameful >> That's right.

>> That's right. >> That's right. >> to show up without a beard. It's like, >> to show up without a beard. It's like, >> to show up without a beard. It's like, "Well, I guess I'm in pretty bad shape "Well, I guess I'm in pretty bad shape "Well, I guess I'm in pretty bad shape then as a Christian. So are you, then as a Christian. So are you, then as a Christian. So are you, Preston." Although you got some Preston." Although you got some Preston." Although you got some >> I I I I'll try. I'll >> I I I I'll try. I'll >> I I I I'll try. I'll >> some stubble there. You got some stubble >> some stubble there. You got some stubble >> some stubble there. You got some stubble there, you know? But I I mean, we do see there, you know? But I I mean, we do see there, you know? But I I mean, we do see this in in in scripture throughout the this in in in scripture throughout the this in in in scripture throughout the Old and New Testament that there are Old and New Testament that there are Old and New Testament that there are cultural practices that cultural practices that cultural practices that just just just uh impact that. Okay, so that's that. uh impact that. Okay, so that's that. uh impact that. Okay, so that's that. And then there was What was the other And then there was What was the other And then there was What was the other one? It was in one? It was in one? It was in >> 2, the famous 1 Timothy 2. Uh Paul says, >> 2, the famous 1 Timothy 2. Uh Paul says, >> 2, the famous 1 Timothy 2. Uh Paul says, "I am not I don't permit a woman to "I am not I don't permit a woman to "I am not I don't permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over man teach or exercise authority over man teach or exercise authority over man because Adam is created first, you because Adam is created first, you because Adam is created first, you know?" So there you do have this appeal know?" So there you do have this appeal know?" So there you do have this appeal >> Well, there it settles it, right? You >> Well, there it settles it, right? You >> Well, there it settles it, right? You got to be complementarian. got to be complementarian. got to be complementarian. >> Case closed. Um >> Case closed. Um >> Case closed. Um what I point I I I devote It's my what I point I I I devote It's my what I point I I I devote It's my longest chapter. I devote like 50 pages longest chapter. I devote like 50 pages longest chapter. I devote like 50 pages just to 1 Timothy 2 and and chapter 3. just to 1 Timothy 2 and and chapter 3. just to 1 Timothy 2 and and chapter 3. Um so, yeah. Um if if my take here is Um so, yeah. Um if if my take here is Um so, yeah. Um if if my take here is brief, my my treatment in the book is brief, my my treatment in the book is brief, my my treatment in the book is not. Um not. Um not. Um uh One thing I I want to remind people uh One thing I I want to remind people uh One thing I I want to remind people is we don't start with 1 Timothy 2.

is we don't start with 1 Timothy 2. is we don't start with 1 Timothy 2. Like, we have to kind of Like, we have to kind of Like, we have to kind of take the cana- canonical um progress. take the cana- canonical um progress. take the cana- canonical um progress. So, you know, So, you know, So, you know, what what's been happening so far what what's been happening so far what what's been happening so far throughout scripture up until 1 Timothy throughout scripture up until 1 Timothy throughout scripture up until 1 Timothy 2. So, 2. So, 2. So, um um um yeah, I think people start with 1 yeah, I think people start with 1 yeah, I think people start with 1 Timothy 2. They read it quickly, Timothy 2. They read it quickly, Timothy 2. They read it quickly, and then they say, "Okay, now we know and then they say, "Okay, now we know and then they say, "Okay, now we know women can't teach or preach. Now, let's women can't teach or preach. Now, let's women can't teach or preach. Now, let's go look at all the other passages." And go look at all the other passages." And go look at all the other passages." And it's like, "Well, no, let's look at all it's like, "Well, no, let's look at all it's like, "Well, no, let's look at all the other passages and come to this one the other passages and come to this one the other passages and come to this one and and see what Paul's saying here." and and see what Paul's saying here." and and see what Paul's saying here." So, So, So, um um um textually, the one thing the one big textually, the one thing the one big textually, the one thing the one big thing for me is there's a well-known thing for me is there's a well-known thing for me is there's a well-known debate debate debate about the Greek word translated about the Greek word translated about the Greek word translated authority here. Uh authentane. Um authority here. Uh authentane. Um authority here. Uh authentane. Um and it's it's a super rare word. It's and it's it's a super rare word. It's and it's it's a super rare word. It's not used anywhere else in the Bible, not used anywhere else in the Bible, not used anywhere else in the Bible, the New Testament, it's not used the New Testament, it's not used the New Testament, it's not used anywhere else, the Greek Old Testament, anywhere else, the Greek Old Testament, anywhere else, the Greek Old Testament, not used anywhere else. And it's not used anywhere else. And it's not used anywhere else. And it's actually very rare in Greek literature actually very rare in Greek literature actually very rare in Greek literature outside the Bible. It's only used less outside the Bible. It's only used less outside the Bible. It's only used less than a dozen times in you know, a couple than a dozen times in you know, a couple than a dozen times in you know, a couple hundred years on either side of Paul.

hundred years on either side of Paul. hundred years on either side of Paul. So, it's like, gosh, all right, well, So, it's like, gosh, all right, well, So, it's like, gosh, all right, well, what does this word mean? It it's what does this word mean? It it's what does this word mean? It it's translated in different ways. And so, translated in different ways. And so, translated in different ways. And so, what I did I I I just I said, you know what I did I I I just I said, you know what I did I I I just I said, you know what? I'm going to look at every single what? I'm going to look at every single what? I'm going to look at every single time this past this word is used. I'm time this past this word is used. I'm time this past this word is used. I'm going to study the context going to study the context going to study the context and and see if we can figure out based and and see if we can figure out based and and see if we can figure out based on other usage, what does this word on other usage, what does this word on other usage, what does this word mean? mean? mean? And um And um And um I found and I lay this all out in the I found and I lay this all out in the I found and I lay this all out in the book really clearly. It is is probably book really clearly. It is is probably book really clearly. It is is probably the most tedious part of the book cuz it the most tedious part of the book cuz it the most tedious part of the book cuz it you know, five pages of looking at like you know, five pages of looking at like you know, five pages of looking at like Greek papyri and looking at the context. Greek papyri and looking at the context. Greek papyri and looking at the context. And but I'm like, I want people to see. And but I'm like, I want people to see. And but I'm like, I want people to see. Like, I don't I I go with the text, Like, I don't I I go with the text, Like, I don't I I go with the text, don't go with me. I want you to show you don't go with me. I want you to show you don't go with me. I want you to show you why I'm arriving at my view. Every why I'm arriving at my view. Every why I'm arriving at my view. Every single time this Greek word occurs, it's single time this Greek word occurs, it's single time this Greek word occurs, it's in the context of a master exercising in the context of a master exercising in the context of a master exercising master-like authority over his slave or master-like authority over his slave or master-like authority over his slave or somebody of a high social status somebody of a high social status somebody of a high social status kind of dominating somebody of a low kind of dominating somebody of a low kind of dominating somebody of a low social status. It It feels very much social status. It It feels very much social status. It It feels very much like the the thing Jesus denounced in like the the thing Jesus denounced in like the the thing Jesus denounced in Mark 10. It's the Gentiles who lorded Mark 10. It's the Gentiles who lorded Mark 10. It's the Gentiles who lorded over you. That's a different word.

over you. That's a different word. over you. That's a different word. >> So, it's kind of I don't permit women to >> So, it's kind of I don't permit women to >> So, it's kind of I don't permit women to lord over or dominate men in the lord over or dominate men in the lord over or dominate men in the churches would be the sense of it? churches would be the sense of it? churches would be the sense of it? >> Based on the available linguistic >> Based on the available linguistic >> Based on the available linguistic evidence we have, I think that is the evidence we have, I think that is the evidence we have, I think that is the best way to translate that word. Um and best way to translate that word. Um and best way to translate that word. Um and then if you look into the social then if you look into the social then if you look into the social context, women did have a a context, women did have a a context, women did have a a There's there was a an unusually high There's there was a an unusually high There's there was a an unusually high number of women in Ephesus and in an number of women in Ephesus and in an number of women in Ephesus and in an Asia Minor who had a lot of wealth and Asia Minor who had a lot of wealth and Asia Minor who had a lot of wealth and status and power and even occupied status and power and even occupied status and power and even occupied positions of leadership. And so positions of leadership. And so positions of leadership. And so it would make sense socially that in it would make sense socially that in it would make sense socially that in this this this situation in Ephesus, there would be a situation in Ephesus, there would be a situation in Ephesus, there would be a situation where women were maybe situation where women were maybe situation where women were maybe doing that kind of exercising doing that kind of exercising doing that kind of exercising more dominating authority over men, more dominating authority over men, more dominating authority over men, which was common in that culture with which was common in that culture with which was common in that culture with people of high social status and women people of high social status and women people of high social status and women not at high social status in that not at high social status in that not at high social status in that culture. So culture. So culture. So >> So women would culturally dominate over >> So women would culturally dominate over >> So women would culturally dominate over men if they had high social status, men if they had high social status, men if they had high social status, you're saying? you're saying? you're saying? >> It was unusual, but it was not um >> It was unusual, but it was not um >> It was unusual, but it was not um I mean, that's just what I mean, that's just what I mean, that's just what >> Like queens would do in medieval times, >> Like queens would do in medieval times, >> Like queens would do in medieval times, right?

right? right? >> Yeah, I would say it was just what >> Yeah, I would say it was just what >> Yeah, I would say it was just what authority meant in the Greco-Roman authority meant in the Greco-Roman authority meant in the Greco-Roman culture. Yeah. If you had high social culture. Yeah. If you had high social culture. Yeah. If you had high social status, status, status, like you don't serve one that has low like you don't serve one that has low like you don't serve one that has low social status. You boss them around. You social status. You boss them around. You social status. You boss them around. You tell them what to do. Like you kind of tell them what to do. Like you kind of tell them what to do. Like you kind of you don't you don't you don't you know? you know? you know? >> If you want to study hierarchy, study >> If you want to study hierarchy, study >> If you want to study hierarchy, study first century Greco-Roman culture. first century Greco-Roman culture. first century Greco-Roman culture. >> It's really complex. Yeah, yeah. So >> It's really complex. Yeah, yeah. So >> It's really complex. Yeah, yeah. So people often people often say like, people often people often say like, people often people often say like, "Well, women didn't have high status. "Well, women didn't have high status. "Well, women didn't have high status. Men did." I'm like, "Well, it Men did." I'm like, "Well, it Men did." I'm like, "Well, it generally speaking, that's true. But if generally speaking, that's true. But if generally speaking, that's true. But if a wealthy female had a male slave, a wealthy female had a male slave, a wealthy female had a male slave, gosh, she had high status and she would gosh, she had high status and she would gosh, she had high status and she would be free to treat him however she wanted be free to treat him however she wanted be free to treat him however she wanted to, you know? So um to, you know? So um to, you know? So um Yeah, so it So Yeah, so it So Yeah, so it So Right all right there, that kind of Right all right there, that kind of Right all right there, that kind of changes the meaning of the passage. If changes the meaning of the passage. If changes the meaning of the passage. If Paul is prohibiting women from Paul is prohibiting women from Paul is prohibiting women from And I I I take teach and exercise And I I I take teach and exercise And I I I take teach and exercise authority as kind of a um authority as kind of a um authority as kind of a um expressing a single idea, which which is expressing a single idea, which which is expressing a single idea, which which is a common way the Greek phrase works, you a common way the Greek phrase works, you a common way the Greek phrase works, you know? know? know? That I do not permit women to teach in a That I do not permit women to teach in a That I do not permit women to teach in a dom- dominating way over men.

dom- dominating way over men. dom- dominating way over men. And then the tricky part is he goes to And then the tricky part is he goes to And then the tricky part is he goes to creation. And this man, I spent a lot of creation. And this man, I spent a lot of creation. And this man, I spent a lot of pages looking at how to pages looking at how to pages looking at how to interpret this. Um interpret this. Um interpret this. Um I used to think that Paul is clearly I used to think that Paul is clearly I used to think that Paul is clearly saying, "The reason why saying, "The reason why saying, "The reason why women shouldn't be doing this is because women shouldn't be doing this is because women shouldn't be doing this is because Adam because Adam was created first." Adam because Adam was created first." Adam because Adam was created first." And if I'm right about the word And if I'm right about the word And if I'm right about the word authority, then it's like, "Great. Yeah, authority, then it's like, "Great. Yeah, authority, then it's like, "Great. Yeah, women should never women should never women should never dominate men in that un-Christian dominate men in that un-Christian dominate men in that un-Christian fashion. That doesn't mean they can't fashion. That doesn't mean they can't fashion. That doesn't mean they can't exercise godly authority or teach in a exercise godly authority or teach in a exercise godly authority or teach in a godly way. It just means they shouldn't godly way. It just means they shouldn't godly way. It just means they shouldn't exercise ungodly kinds of authority and exercise ungodly kinds of authority and exercise ungodly kinds of authority and and dominating teaching." Um and dominating teaching." Um and dominating teaching." Um but the Greek word translated because but the Greek word translated because but the Greek word translated because there, it could also mean for instance. there, it could also mean for instance. there, it could also mean for instance. Like it could be given an illustration. Like it could be given an illustration. Like it could be given an illustration. Paul could be going back to creation Paul could be going back to creation Paul could be going back to creation not to say, you know, "This is going not to say, you know, "This is going not to say, you know, "This is going against the creation created order." But against the creation created order." But against the creation created order." But he could be saying, "For instance, you he could be saying, "For instance, you he could be saying, "For instance, you know, in the case of Adam and Eve, this know, in the case of Adam and Eve, this know, in the case of Adam and Eve, this this happened." And we see Paul appeal this happened." And we see Paul appeal this happened." And we see Paul appeal to like the deception of Eve in 2 to like the deception of Eve in 2 to like the deception of Eve in 2 Corinthians as an illustration, not as Corinthians as an illustration, not as Corinthians as an illustration, not as kind of like a creation a departure from kind of like a creation a departure from kind of like a creation a departure from a a a creational norm. So, all that to say, I creational norm. So, all that to say, I creational norm. So, all that to say, I say, "You know what? I I could totally say, "You know what? I I could totally say, "You know what? I I could totally see see see where where where complementarians complementarians complementarians you know, I can totally see where they you know, I can totally see where they you know, I can totally see where they read this passage." Like they may it's read this passage." Like they may it's read this passage." Like they may it's like, "You know what? That's not an like, "You know what? That's not an like, "You know what? That's not an outlandish way to read the passage."

outlandish way to read the passage." outlandish way to read the passage." But I point out, I'm like, I But I point out, I'm like, I But I point out, I'm like, I this passage, number one, is more this passage, number one, is more this passage, number one, is more complex than some people make it out to complex than some people make it out to complex than some people make it out to be. And actually, I think the be. And actually, I think the be. And actually, I think the complementarian reading isn't complementarian reading isn't complementarian reading isn't what I say is it's not I don't think what I say is it's not I don't think what I say is it's not I don't think it's the best way. I think it actually it's the best way. I think it actually it's the best way. I think it actually creates more problems in the text itself creates more problems in the text itself creates more problems in the text itself than it solves. than it solves. than it solves. Um is it possible? I think it's Um is it possible? I think it's Um is it possible? I think it's possible. Like I don't possible. Like I don't possible. Like I don't browbeat complementarians. How could you browbeat complementarians. How could you browbeat complementarians. How could you dare, you know? It's like, "Yeah, I dare, you know? It's like, "Yeah, I dare, you know? It's like, "Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's a complex passage, mean, it's it's it's a complex passage, mean, it's it's it's a complex passage, but I do think there's better ways to but I do think there's better ways to but I do think there's better ways to interpret it." And especially in light interpret it." And especially in light interpret it." And especially in light of everything we've said so far about of everything we've said so far about of everything we've said so far about women women women I would say rather clearly doing I would say rather clearly doing I would say rather clearly doing leadership type things in in the church. leadership type things in in the church. leadership type things in in the church. >> So, you know, and I I appreciate how you >> So, you know, and I I appreciate how you >> So, you know, and I I appreciate how you hold your conclusion. You said this hold your conclusion. You said this hold your conclusion. You said this isn't a first principles thing like the isn't a first principles thing like the isn't a first principles thing like the resurrection or the deity of Jesus or resurrection or the deity of Jesus or resurrection or the deity of Jesus or anything like that. anything like that. anything like that. But in the process, you went from being But in the process, you went from being But in the process, you went from being raised complementarian to saying perhaps raised complementarian to saying perhaps raised complementarian to saying perhaps the better biblical view based on all my the better biblical view based on all my the better biblical view based on all my studying and this journey would be an studying and this journey would be an studying and this journey would be an egalitarian where women are equal. Do egalitarian where women are equal. Do egalitarian where women are equal. Do you see I'm I'm just curious. Do you see you see I'm I'm just curious. Do you see you see I'm I'm just curious. Do you see any limits like female lead pastors or any limits like female lead pastors or any limits like female lead pastors or teaching but not preaching or any of the teaching but not preaching or any of the teaching but not preaching or any of the things that you can be a director but things that you can be a director but things that you can be a director but not a pastor all the workarounds that not a pastor all the workarounds that not a pastor all the workarounds that the church is doing these days. How the church is doing these days. How the church is doing these days. How would you speak into that?

would you speak into that? would you speak into that? >> I don't I don't see that. I I respect I >> I don't I don't see that. I I respect I >> I don't I don't see that. I I respect I would say a a lot of people that I'm in would say a a lot of people that I'm in would say a a lot of people that I'm in sort of ministry with or churches that I sort of ministry with or churches that I sort of ministry with or churches that I speak at would have that kind of view speak at would have that kind of view speak at would have that kind of view where women could do many things but not where women could do many things but not where women could do many things but not all the things, you know, um all the things, you know, um all the things, you know, um My main pushback to that and this goes My main pushback to that and this goes My main pushback to that and this goes back to my chapter on leadership in the back to my chapter on leadership in the back to my chapter on leadership in the first century. I think it assumes first century. I think it assumes first century. I think it assumes kind of rigid modern leadership kind of rigid modern leadership kind of rigid modern leadership categories that the New Testament wasn't categories that the New Testament wasn't categories that the New Testament wasn't working with. working with. working with. You know, the word pastor is only used You know, the word pastor is only used You know, the word pastor is only used once in the entire New Testament in once in the entire New Testament in once in the entire New Testament in reference to a reference to a reference to a a church leadership position in in a church leadership position in in a church leadership position in in Ephesians 4:11 pastor-teacher. Ephesians 4:11 pastor-teacher. Ephesians 4:11 pastor-teacher. Um Um Um There is no I don't see the idea of a There is no I don't see the idea of a There is no I don't see the idea of a senior pastor anywhere. senior pastor anywhere. senior pastor anywhere. The closest we can come is The closest we can come is The closest we can come is It's possible that that overseer in 1 It's possible that that overseer in 1 It's possible that that overseer in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 was kind of a Timothy 3 and Titus 1 was kind of a Timothy 3 and Titus 1 was kind of a leader of a house church and the elders leader of a house church and the elders leader of a house church and the elders were sort of a group.

were sort of a group. were sort of a group. Kind of a Kind of a Kind of a a broader group who were leaders but the a broader group who were leaders but the a broader group who were leaders but the overseer was kind of the single leader overseer was kind of the single leader overseer was kind of the single leader of a house church. That's why that's of a house church. That's why that's of a house church. That's why that's really debated as you know, it's really debated as you know, it's really debated as you know, it's possible. possible. possible. But senior pastor then group of elders But senior pastor then group of elders But senior pastor then group of elders and deacons under them again that that and deacons under them again that that and deacons under them again that that that was crystallized in the 2nd that was crystallized in the 2nd that was crystallized in the 2nd century. I just don't see it. So I would century. I just don't see it. So I would century. I just don't see it. So I would doubt in the New Testament. doubt in the New Testament. doubt in the New Testament. >> what? I can't believe this hasn't come >> what? I can't believe this hasn't come >> what? I can't believe this hasn't come up in all of my years in Christian up in all of my years in Christian up in all of my years in Christian leadership and being a pastor even in leadership and being a pastor even in leadership and being a pastor even in seminary but my view of the early house seminary but my view of the early house seminary but my view of the early house church was kind of like, oh yeah, we church was kind of like, oh yeah, we church was kind of like, oh yeah, we just opened our door and you're welcome. just opened our door and you're welcome. just opened our door and you're welcome. And we just meet here. And you know, I I And we just meet here. And you know, I I And we just meet here. And you know, I I it was a little more organized than it was a little more organized than it was a little more organized than that, but it's sort of almost like we that, but it's sort of almost like we that, but it's sort of almost like we would see small group. would see small group. would see small group. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, mid-size group, but very very >> You know, mid-size group, but very very >> You know, mid-size group, but very very decentralized. decentralized. decentralized. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And the letter would make its way around >> And the letter would make its way around >> And the letter would make its way around Galatia and Ephesus, etc. etc. So, Galatia and Ephesus, etc. etc. So, Galatia and Ephesus, etc. etc. So, this is interesting. So, you're of the this is interesting. So, you're of the this is interesting. So, you're of the view that there are there are solid view that there are there are solid view that there are there are solid reasons biblically for having a reasons biblically for having a reasons biblically for having a complementarian where, you know, women complementarian where, you know, women complementarian where, you know, women can't teach or preach or lead. And also can't teach or preach or lead. And also can't teach or preach or lead. And also legitimate views, legitimate viewpoints legitimate views, legitimate viewpoints legitimate views, legitimate viewpoints in the scripture. This is one of those in the scripture. This is one of those in the scripture. This is one of those issues where perhaps faithful Christians issues where perhaps faithful Christians issues where perhaps faithful Christians can conclude either way, unlike in your can conclude either way, unlike in your can conclude either way, unlike in your view sexuality.

view sexuality. view sexuality. >> Right. 100%. Yeah. >> Right. 100%. Yeah. >> Right. 100%. Yeah. >> Okay. 100%. Yeah. I I Yeah. >> Okay. 100%. Yeah. I I Yeah. >> Okay. 100%. Yeah. I I Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Now, you did hint at this earlier. It's Now, you did hint at this earlier. It's Now, you did hint at this earlier. It's no excuse for misogyny, no matter where no excuse for misogyny, no matter where no excuse for misogyny, no matter where you stand, right? you stand, right? you stand, right? >> Right. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And I you know, >> Right. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And I you know, >> Right. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And I you know, so I do Yeah. I I land egalitarian so I do Yeah. I I land egalitarian so I do Yeah. I I land egalitarian in the book. I don't like that term, in the book. I don't like that term, in the book. I don't like that term, actually. I I say I use it all actually. I I say I use it all actually. I I say I use it all throughout and at the conclusion, I'm throughout and at the conclusion, I'm throughout and at the conclusion, I'm like, you know, I actually don't love like, you know, I actually don't love like, you know, I actually don't love this term. this term. this term. >> What would you call it? >> What would you call it? >> What would you call it? >> I don't know. You know, some people are >> I don't know. You know, some people are >> I don't know. You know, some people are saying mutualist. I don't think there is saying mutualist. I don't think there is saying mutualist. I don't think there is >> Mutualist? >> Mutualist? >> Mutualist? >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> Feels like you're trying to sell me a >> Feels like you're trying to sell me a >> Feels like you're trying to sell me a financial instrument, so. financial instrument, so. financial instrument, so. >> I don't I I've not yet found a term that >> I don't I I've not yet found a term that >> I don't I I've not yet found a term that I actually I actually I actually absolutely love, but um absolutely love, but um absolutely love, but um you know, at the end of the day, okay, you know, at the end of the day, okay, you know, at the end of the day, okay, if people I know people will say, you if people I know people will say, you if people I know people will say, you know what, I don't quite agree with your know what, I don't quite agree with your know what, I don't quite agree with your conclusion. Hopefully, they'll still conclusion. Hopefully, they'll still conclusion. Hopefully, they'll still appreciate my approach. But at the end appreciate my approach. But at the end appreciate my approach. But at the end of the day, there's a lot in the book of the day, there's a lot in the book of the day, there's a lot in the book that just celebrates that just celebrates that just celebrates the the the the influence and the wisdom and the the influence and the wisdom and the the influence and the wisdom and the courage of women. And if you're in a courage of women. And if you're in a courage of women. And if you're in a complementarian church and you're not complementarian church and you're not complementarian church and you're not doing that, you I don't think that's a doing that, you I don't think that's a doing that, you I don't think that's a healthy complementarian church. Like healthy complementarian church. Like healthy complementarian church. Like Yeah, I I think we can be empowering and Yeah, I I think we can be empowering and Yeah, I I think we can be empowering and celebrating and learning from women, celebrating and learning from women, celebrating and learning from women, even if you say certain roles are, you even if you say certain roles are, you even if you say certain roles are, you know, know, know, reserved for men, so.

reserved for men, so. reserved for men, so. >> What do you think is at stake for the >> What do you think is at stake for the >> What do you think is at stake for the church as we wrestle with this issue? church as we wrestle with this issue? church as we wrestle with this issue? >> Well, both sides will say something >> Well, both sides will say something >> Well, both sides will say something different. different. different. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Egalitarians, here's me being >> Egalitarians, here's me being >> Egalitarians, here's me being diplomatic. I should run for office. diplomatic. I should run for office. diplomatic. I should run for office. >> You know, >> You know, >> You know, apparently that doesn't get you very far apparently that doesn't get you very far apparently that doesn't get you very far anymore, but go ahead. I'd love that. anymore, but go ahead. I'd love that. anymore, but go ahead. I'd love that. >> I'm not on the files, I promise. >> I'm not on the files, I promise. >> I'm not on the files, I promise. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Not on the files. Um egalitarians will say, well, you're Um egalitarians will say, well, you're you're you're preventing half of the you're you're preventing half of the you're you're preventing half of the kingdom of God from kingdom of God from kingdom of God from at least the possibility of fulfilling at least the possibility of fulfilling at least the possibility of fulfilling their God-given call to, you know, being their God-given call to, you know, being their God-given call to, you know, being leadership leadership leadership position if if God is calling them to position if if God is calling them to position if if God is calling them to that. Um and complementarians will say, that. Um and complementarians will say, that. Um and complementarians will say, well, you're you're you're you're kind well, you're you're you're you're kind well, you're you're you're you're kind of destroying of destroying of destroying God's created design. You're you're God's created design. You're you're God's created design. You're you're messing with the very fabric of creation messing with the very fabric of creation messing with the very fabric of creation when you, when you, when you, uh, you know, mess with or you you you uh, you know, mess with or you you you uh, you know, mess with or you you you abolish, you know, distinctions between abolish, you know, distinctions between abolish, you know, distinctions between men and women in in the church. And so, men and women in in the church. And so, men and women in in the church. And so, I think, hopefully you can hear in my I think, hopefully you can hear in my I think, hopefully you can hear in my tone, I think both of those are are tone, I think both of those are are tone, I think both of those are are little, maybe overreactive. little, maybe overreactive. little, maybe overreactive. Um Um Um for me, you know, I there's something to for me, you know, I there's something to for me, you know, I there's something to both of those sides. As as one who has both of those sides. As as one who has both of those sides. As as one who has landed egalitarian, yeah, I'm very landed egalitarian, yeah, I'm very landed egalitarian, yeah, I'm very sympathetic with, man, there's sympathetic with, man, there's sympathetic with, man, there's I think a lot of I I believe, biblically I think a lot of I I believe, biblically I think a lot of I I believe, biblically I believe, there are women who are I believe, there are women who are I believe, there are women who are gifted and called to leadership that gifted and called to leadership that gifted and called to leadership that have not been able to use those gifts.

have not been able to use those gifts. have not been able to use those gifts. And I think both men both both women and And I think both men both both women and And I think both men both both women and men men men uh miss out when when when when that's uh miss out when when when when that's uh miss out when when when when that's the case. So, um the case. So, um the case. So, um and yeah, I I and I I very much resonate and yeah, I I and I I very much resonate and yeah, I I and I I very much resonate with the concern of complementarians, with the concern of complementarians, with the concern of complementarians, you know, you will you know, you will you know, you will you know, you're messing with creational you know, you're messing with creational you know, you're messing with creational differences, whatever. Like, but I I'm differences, whatever. Like, but I I'm differences, whatever. Like, but I I'm actually not. Like, I I'm not I think actually not. Like, I I'm not I think actually not. Like, I I'm not I think men and women are different, absolutely, men and women are different, absolutely, men and women are different, absolutely, and we should celebrate that. I just and we should celebrate that. I just and we should celebrate that. I just don't I no longer think that those don't I no longer think that those don't I no longer think that those differences preclude, differences preclude, differences preclude, uh, one part of the population from uh, one part of the population from uh, one part of the population from being in in leadership. So, Yeah. being in in leadership. So, Yeah. being in in leadership. So, Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what I >> Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what I >> Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what I appreciated most. We're not trying to appreciated most. We're not trying to appreciated most. We're not trying to change anyone's mind. I think we're change anyone's mind. I think we're change anyone's mind. I think we're trying to open people's mind here. Just trying to open people's mind here. Just trying to open people's mind here. Just to like there is a thoughtful way to like there is a thoughtful way to like there is a thoughtful way to have the conversation. And I got to to have the conversation. And I got to to have the conversation. And I got to tell you, it's a great model, I think, tell you, it's a great model, I think, tell you, it's a great model, I think, for how we should think. Because you've for how we should think. Because you've for how we should think. Because you've you know, taken different issues on and you know, taken different issues on and you know, taken different issues on and been like, well, no, I'm more been like, well, no, I'm more been like, well, no, I'm more traditional on this one. I think that's traditional on this one. I think that's traditional on this one. I think that's the best reading of scripture. But, oh, the best reading of scripture. But, oh, the best reading of scripture. But, oh, on this one I changed my mind. Best on this one I changed my mind. Best on this one I changed my mind. Best reading of scripture. So, I hope we can reading of scripture. So, I hope we can reading of scripture. So, I hope we can do more and more of that. Preston, thank do more and more of that. Preston, thank do more and more of that. Preston, thank you. I hope this isn't our last you. I hope this isn't our last you. I hope this isn't our last conversation. The book is called From conversation. The book is called From conversation. The book is called From Genesis to Junia. It's available Genesis to Junia. It's available Genesis to Junia. It's available everywhere. And where is the best place everywhere. And where is the best place everywhere. And where is the best place to find you online?

to find you online? to find you online? >> Uh, theologyraw.com is my one of my >> Uh, theologyraw.com is my one of my >> Uh, theologyraw.com is my one of my websites. Um, the one I'm probably most websites. Um, the one I'm probably most websites. Um, the one I'm probably most active on. I also have a podcast twice a active on. I also have a podcast twice a active on. I also have a podcast twice a week, Theology in the Raw. That's where week, Theology in the Raw. That's where week, Theology in the Raw. That's where you can find me in real time is my you can find me in real time is my you can find me in real time is my podcast, uh, Theology in the Raw. podcast, uh, Theology in the Raw. podcast, uh, Theology in the Raw. >> Well, it's been a lot of fun. Thank you >> Well, it's been a lot of fun. Thank you >> Well, it's been a lot of fun. Thank you so much. so much. so much. >> Thanks. Yeah, I appreciate it. >> Thanks. Yeah, I appreciate it. >> Thanks. Yeah, I appreciate it. >> Well, I told you that was important for >> Well, I told you that was important for >> Well, I told you that was important for two reasons, right? First of all, I two reasons, right? First of all, I two reasons, right? First of all, I think the issue of women in leadership think the issue of women in leadership think the issue of women in leadership is important and we promised to drill is important and we promised to drill is important and we promised to drill down on that because you asked us to. down on that because you asked us to. down on that because you asked us to. That was one of my Church Trends for That was one of my Church Trends for That was one of my Church Trends for 2026, women leaving the church, and a 2026, women leaving the church, and a 2026, women leaving the church, and a lot of you messaged me, messaged my lot of you messaged me, messaged my lot of you messaged me, messaged my team, and said, hey, some of this has to team, and said, hey, some of this has to team, and said, hey, some of this has to do with our view of women in leadership. do with our view of women in leadership. do with our view of women in leadership. So, there's a perspective I think is So, there's a perspective I think is So, there's a perspective I think is helpful, and we have numerous other helpful, and we have numerous other helpful, and we have numerous other episodes uh, that address the issue as episodes uh, that address the issue as episodes uh, that address the issue as well, but I wanted to tackle it head on well, but I wanted to tackle it head on well, but I wanted to tackle it head on with Preston Sprinkle. So, hopefully with Preston Sprinkle. So, hopefully with Preston Sprinkle. So, hopefully that was helpful, and you may come to a that was helpful, and you may come to a that was helpful, and you may come to a different conclusion, but I think, you different conclusion, but I think, you different conclusion, but I think, you know, the kindness, the honoring of know, the kindness, the honoring of know, the kindness, the honoring of women is very, very important. And I women is very, very important. And I women is very, very important. And I think it's really interesting to hear think it's really interesting to hear think it's really interesting to hear from somebody who has one view of from somebody who has one view of from somebody who has one view of sexuality, but, you know, has changed sexuality, but, you know, has changed sexuality, but, you know, has changed his mind when it comes to women in his mind when it comes to women in his mind when it comes to women in ministry. Also coming up, we have got ministry. Also coming up, we have got ministry. Also coming up, we have got Eric Reese from The Lean Startup, Dave Eric Reese from The Lean Startup, Dave Eric Reese from The Lean Startup, Dave Ferguson, Rich Villodas, Nicole Martin, Ferguson, Rich Villodas, Nicole Martin, Ferguson, Rich Villodas, Nicole Martin, Joel Mudamalle, and if you want show Joel Mudamalle, and if you want show Joel Mudamalle, and if you want show notes from this or any other episode, notes from this or any other episode, notes from this or any other episode, the best place to get them is inside the the best place to get them is inside the the best place to get them is inside the Art of Leadership Academy. So you can go Art of Leadership Academy. So you can go Art of Leadership Academy. So you can go to the Art of Leadership Academy.com and to the Art of Leadership Academy.com and to the Art of Leadership Academy.com and you can sign up for a free membership.

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