The Real Reason Women Are Walking Away From Church

that mindset. I think that it's proof that mindset. I think that it's proof texting using scripture to protect power texting using scripture to protect power texting using scripture to protect power and to make sure all the power sits and to make sure all the power sits and to make sure all the power sits right here. right here. right here. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. Hey, I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. Hey, I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. Hey, I'm so glad you joined us today. For all of you who are joined us today. For all of you who are joined us today. For all of you who are new to listening, we're really glad new to listening, we're really glad new to listening, we're really glad you're here. Today on the show, we have you're here. Today on the show, we have you're here. Today on the show, we have got Beth Moore and we talk about how do got Beth Moore and we talk about how do got Beth Moore and we talk about how do you know when it's time to leave? She you know when it's time to leave? She you know when it's time to leave? She left the denomination 10 years ago. We left the denomination 10 years ago. We left the denomination 10 years ago. We talk about what's really going on around talk about what's really going on around talk about what's really going on around the issue of women in leadership. While the issue of women in leadership. While the issue of women in leadership. While there are different views, some people there are different views, some people there are different views, some people just like to proof text to [music] keep just like to proof text to [music] keep just like to proof text to [music] keep the pulpit in power. She talks about the pulpit in power. She talks about the pulpit in power. She talks about that. We also talk about why so many that. We also talk about why so many that. We also talk about why so many people [music] and especially women are people [music] and especially women are people [music] and especially women are leaving the church and a whole lot more leaving the church and a whole lot more leaving the church and a whole lot more here on the podcast. Really glad that here on the podcast. Really glad that here on the podcast. Really glad that you've joined us. We got [music] a lot you've joined us. We got [music] a lot you've joined us. We got [music] a lot to talk about. Beth Moore is an author. to talk about. Beth Moore is an author. to talk about. Beth Moore is an author. She is a speaker. She is a Bible teacher She is a speaker. She is a Bible teacher She is a speaker. She is a Bible teacher whose conferences [music] has attracted whose conferences [music] has attracted whose conferences [music] has attracted millions around the world. She has millions around the world. She has millions around the world. She has written numerous books. We talk in written numerous books. We talk in written numerous books. We talk in particular about her memoir which is particular about her memoir which is particular about her memoir which is extremely well written. It's called All extremely well written. It's called All extremely well written. It's called All My Knotted Up Life. And now without My Knotted Up Life. And now without My Knotted Up Life. And now without further ado, my conversation with Beth further ado, my conversation with Beth further ado, my conversation with Beth Moore. Well Beth, I've been looking Moore. Well Beth, I've been looking Moore. Well Beth, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long forward to this conversation for a long forward to this conversation for a long time. Thanks for coming on.

time. Thanks for coming on. time. Thanks for coming on. >> I am so pleased to be here Carrie. Thank >> I am so pleased to be here Carrie. Thank >> I am so pleased to be here Carrie. Thank you for having me. you for having me. you for having me. >> So I love what you say. I think it's on >> So I love what you say. I think it's on >> So I love what you say. I think it's on the back cover of your book, All My the back cover of your book, All My the back cover of your book, All My Knotted Up Life, but it's like familiar Knotted Up Life, but it's like familiar Knotted Up Life, but it's like familiar to many, but known by few. I thought to many, but known by few. I thought to many, but known by few. I thought that is a really good description of that is a really good description of that is a really good description of just pretty much everybody who's just pretty much everybody who's just pretty much everybody who's listening to this podcast because listening to this podcast because listening to this podcast because they're church leaders. They have a they're church leaders. They have a they're church leaders. They have a platform. platform. platform. That is a phenomena I find really That is a phenomena I find really That is a phenomena I find really interesting. How has that shown up in interesting. How has that shown up in interesting. How has that shown up in your life and ministry? You know, your life and ministry? You know, your life and ministry? You know, familiar to many, known by few. familiar to many, known by few. familiar to many, known by few. I think that for a lot of us who have I think that for a lot of us who have I think that for a lot of us who have been out there a while, so think in been out there a while, so think in been out there a while, so think in terms of perhaps my peer age or even 10 terms of perhaps my peer age or even 10 terms of perhaps my peer age or even 10 years younger than me, but out there years younger than me, but out there years younger than me, but out there long enough to learn some things the long enough to learn some things the long enough to learn some things the hard way. And some of those things are hard way. And some of those things are hard way. And some of those things are that you say too much and then wish you that you say too much and then wish you that you say too much and then wish you could back up and retract some of it. could back up and retract some of it. could back up and retract some of it. And so you learn along the way and then And so you learn along the way and then And so you learn along the way and then the tendency is to swing the other the tendency is to swing the other the tendency is to swing the other direction, Carrie, and I bet you can direction, Carrie, and I bet you can direction, Carrie, and I bet you can relate to this where, okay, I learned my relate to this where, okay, I learned my relate to this where, okay, I learned my lesson saying too much. Now I'm going to lesson saying too much. Now I'm going to lesson saying too much. Now I'm going to air on the other side and I'm going to air on the other side and I'm going to air on the other side and I'm going to keep my cards really, really close. And keep my cards really, really close. And keep my cards really, really close. And you know, it's just a matter of growing you know, it's just a matter of growing you know, it's just a matter of growing up up up in ministry long enough to figure out in ministry long enough to figure out in ministry long enough to figure out the balance of the two. and what I the balance of the two. and what I the balance of the two. and what I really want to share as something that

really want to share as something that really want to share as something that I'm convinced is a benefit. That's I'm convinced is a benefit. That's I'm convinced is a benefit. That's that's the question I have to ask that's the question I have to ask that's the question I have to ask myself. I I like to just put my life out myself. I I like to just put my life out myself. I I like to just put my life out there, what what do you need that I can there, what what do you need that I can there, what what do you need that I can give you? And I I say especially to give you? And I I say especially to give you? And I I say especially to women because that's the primary area of women because that's the primary area of women because that's the primary area of my ministry. I say to them constantly, I my ministry. I say to them constantly, I my ministry. I say to them constantly, I can't give you what I don't have, but can't give you what I don't have, but can't give you what I don't have, but whatever I have is yours. And so I I whatever I have is yours. And so I I whatever I have is yours. And so I I like that that transparency to be able like that that transparency to be able like that that transparency to be able to share life experience and that kind to share life experience and that kind to share life experience and that kind of thing. But there is that crossover of thing. But there is that crossover of thing. But there is that crossover into then what is not secrecy but just into then what is not secrecy but just into then what is not secrecy but just some amount of privacy. And I and I also some amount of privacy. And I and I also some amount of privacy. And I and I also I want to say this and I think this is a I want to say this and I think this is a I want to say this and I think this is a really strange dynamic for the time really strange dynamic for the time really strange dynamic for the time we're living in for our younger ministry we're living in for our younger ministry we're living in for our younger ministry families. Now you can put your kids all families. Now you can put your kids all families. Now you can put your kids all over over over Instagram, Instagram, Instagram, Tik Tok, whatever it may be. This is a Tik Tok, whatever it may be. This is a Tik Tok, whatever it may be. This is a whole different ballgame now because how whole different ballgame now because how whole different ballgame now because how in the world are you ever going to take in the world are you ever going to take in the world are you ever going to take that down? But there's the question of that down? But there's the question of that down? But there's the question of I've also dragged my family into this.

I've also dragged my family into this. I've also dragged my family into this. So I have to think lots of times most of So I have to think lots of times most of So I have to think lots of times most of what I have kept private has been what I have kept private has been what I have kept private has been because it was like this is my story to because it was like this is my story to because it was like this is my story to tell not theirs and with my siblings I tell not theirs and with my siblings I tell not theirs and with my siblings I feel that way. It's like you know they feel that way. It's like you know they feel that way. It's like you know they didn't ask for all of this. So trying to didn't ask for all of this. So trying to didn't ask for all of this. So trying to navigate particularly when you were navigate particularly when you were navigate particularly when you were talking about the back of that book, talking about the back of that book, talking about the back of that book, particularly in a memoir, trying my particularly in a memoir, trying my particularly in a memoir, trying my hardest to stay with, okay, this is what hardest to stay with, okay, this is what hardest to stay with, okay, this is what my story is without getting into what my story is without getting into what my story is without getting into what might be private to them. So, I think might be private to them. So, I think might be private to them. So, I think it's a constant navigation, it's a constant navigation, it's a constant navigation, but I think it comes down to what is but I think it comes down to what is but I think it comes down to what is beneficial and what still protects the beneficial and what still protects the beneficial and what still protects the people that don't want to go to a people that don't want to go to a people that don't want to go to a microphone with me. microphone with me. microphone with me. >> Yeah. They didn't sign up to have a >> Yeah. They didn't sign up to have a >> Yeah. They didn't sign up to have a quote famous sister, a famous mother, a quote famous sister, a famous mother, a quote famous sister, a famous mother, a famous whatever. famous whatever. famous whatever. >> Daughter. >> Daughter. >> Daughter. >> Daughter. Uh-huh. >> Daughter. Uh-huh. >> Daughter. Uh-huh. >> I think that's I think that's a really >> I think that's I think that's a really >> I think that's I think that's a really good point. You know, when social media good point. You know, when social media good point. You know, when social media started, I was a little more free in started, I was a little more free in started, I was a little more free in sharing family moments, and I've kind of sharing family moments, and I've kind of sharing family moments, and I've kind of really dialed back. I'm like, there's really dialed back. I'm like, there's really dialed back. I'm like, there's stuff that's for me. Not because it's stuff that's for me. Not because it's stuff that's for me. Not because it's inappropriate or anything like that, but inappropriate or anything like that, but inappropriate or anything like that, but just because just because just because >> I think the richness of life is not >> I think the richness of life is not >> I think the richness of life is not everything has to be shared online.

everything has to be shared online. everything has to be shared online. >> No. And >> No. And >> No. And >> I I wonder I don't know what age you >> I I wonder I don't know what age you >> I I wonder I don't know what age you are, Carrie. I know you're a good bit are, Carrie. I know you're a good bit are, Carrie. I know you're a good bit younger than I am. I younger than I am. I younger than I am. I >> just turned 60. >> just turned 60. >> just turned 60. >> Okay. All right. So, I am just almost >> Okay. All right. So, I am just almost >> Okay. All right. So, I am just almost almost a decade older. But I wonder if almost a decade older. But I wonder if almost a decade older. But I wonder if you you you have curbed some of that for the same have curbed some of that for the same have curbed some of that for the same reason I have, which is or that you're reason I have, which is or that you're reason I have, which is or that you're more sensitive to it. Let me put it that more sensitive to it. Let me put it that more sensitive to it. Let me put it that way. That you're watching what you think way. That you're watching what you think way. That you're watching what you think with some of our younger ministry with some of our younger ministry with some of our younger ministry friends might not be the best idea. I I friends might not be the best idea. I I friends might not be the best idea. I I will think to myself, will think to myself, will think to myself, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> over and over, I don't know if you're >> over and over, I don't know if you're >> over and over, I don't know if you're going to end up glad that you put all of going to end up glad that you put all of going to end up glad that you put all of that out there and made your life that out there and made your life that out there and made your life basically a a reality show because basically a a reality show because basically a a reality show because I'm I'm all for sharing I'm I'm all for sharing I'm I'm all for sharing family moments and things like that that family moments and things like that that family moments and things like that that are that are fun, but if my whole life are that are fun, but if my whole life are that are fun, but if my whole life is out there that I have now I have is out there that I have now I have is out there that I have now I have opened up my home to a whole different opened up my home to a whole different opened up my home to a whole different kind of what can I say just um not kind of what can I say just um not kind of what can I say just um not always criticism but that there is always criticism but that there is always criticism but that there is always going to be uh opinions about it.

always going to be uh opinions about it. always going to be uh opinions about it. Now I have invited them into a private Now I have invited them into a private Now I have invited them into a private place. So that is a really big part of place. So that is a really big part of place. So that is a really big part of it is that I've sort of find myself now it is that I've sort of find myself now it is that I've sort of find myself now pulling back because the more I see pulling back because the more I see pulling back because the more I see society going in the more I'm beginning society going in the more I'm beginning society going in the more I'm beginning to pull back. to pull back. to pull back. >> Yeah. It's funny. I I see the same thing >> Yeah. It's funny. I I see the same thing >> Yeah. It's funny. I I see the same thing and I was thinking about that and I was thinking about that and I was thinking about that ironically, not prepping for this ironically, not prepping for this ironically, not prepping for this interview, but just over the weekend, interview, but just over the weekend, interview, but just over the weekend, some people I follow, you know, and they some people I follow, you know, and they some people I follow, you know, and they have three or four kids and they're all have three or four kids and they're all have three or four kids and they're all very young, maybe under the age of five very young, maybe under the age of five very young, maybe under the age of five or whatever, or whatever, or whatever, >> and it almost is like a reality TV show >> and it almost is like a reality TV show >> and it almost is like a reality TV show that's showing up on Instagram or Tik that's showing up on Instagram or Tik that's showing up on Instagram or Tik Tok. And I just wonder what that's Tok. And I just wonder what that's Tok. And I just wonder what that's doing. I mean, you now have, you know, I doing. I mean, you now have, you know, I doing. I mean, you now have, you know, I think there have been lawsuits and cease think there have been lawsuits and cease think there have been lawsuits and cease and desists and, you know, kids who have and desists and, you know, kids who have and desists and, you know, kids who have grown up cuz social media is 20 years grown up cuz social media is 20 years grown up cuz social media is 20 years old going you, why did you do this to old going you, why did you do this to old going you, why did you do this to me? me? me? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But it's a really good question. >> But it's a really good question. >> But it's a really good question. Everybody loves to look at every someone Everybody loves to look at every someone Everybody loves to look at every someone else's life and make comments. else's life and make comments. else's life and make comments. I can remember I can remember I can remember it only takes one big regret it only takes one big regret it only takes one big regret >> to just hearken to you constantly with >> to just hearken to you constantly with >> to just hearken to you constantly with putting out something that is just putting out something that is just putting out something that is just deeply personal to the family. But I we deeply personal to the family. But I we deeply personal to the family. But I we had a broken engagement very this was had a broken engagement very this was had a broken engagement very this was many many years ago in our our family.

many many years ago in our our family. many many years ago in our our family. >> Yeah. and we had made it all like, oh, >> Yeah. and we had made it all like, oh, >> Yeah. and we had made it all like, oh, they're engaged and all of this kind of they're engaged and all of this kind of they're engaged and all of this kind of thing, thing, thing, >> kind of chronicled the whole thing on >> kind of chronicled the whole thing on >> kind of chronicled the whole thing on social. social. social. >> It was blogging days. And so, right, >> It was blogging days. And so, right, >> It was blogging days. And so, right, >> you I don't know how to explain this >> you I don't know how to explain this >> you I don't know how to explain this exactly because this might have been exactly because this might have been exactly because this might have been something that was more something that was more something that was more >> the inclination of women and women >> the inclination of women and women >> the inclination of women and women bloggers and women audiences. There was bloggers and women audiences. There was bloggers and women audiences. There was quite a lot of bonding in those days. quite a lot of bonding in those days. quite a lot of bonding in those days. Now, there's some of that on Instagram Now, there's some of that on Instagram Now, there's some of that on Instagram and and some of that is the reason why and and some of that is the reason why and and some of that is the reason why I've even stayed on uh on X is because I I've even stayed on uh on X is because I I've even stayed on uh on X is because I have friends there that I don't I don't have friends there that I don't I don't have friends there that I don't I don't want to leave and they're the only place want to leave and they're the only place want to leave and they're the only place I I have them. But in those days, I I have them. But in those days, I I have them. But in those days, Carrie, I mean, we just [clears throat] Carrie, I mean, we just [clears throat] Carrie, I mean, we just [clears throat] put out so many personal things and put out so many personal things and put out so many personal things and wrote long articles about it, all the wrote long articles about it, all the wrote long articles about it, all the pictures chronicling the whole thing. pictures chronicling the whole thing. pictures chronicling the whole thing. And then that engagement was rightly not And then that engagement was rightly not And then that engagement was rightly not because of any um there was no sin on either part. There there was no sin on either part. There was no nothing terrible to say. It just was no nothing terrible to say. It just was no nothing terrible to say. It just wasn't the right thing for them to wasn't the right thing for them to wasn't the right thing for them to follow through with. They just broke the follow through with. They just broke the follow through with. They just broke the engagement. And then we had to go back engagement. And then we had to go back engagement. And then we had to go back and trek through every single bit of and trek through every single bit of and trek through every single bit of that and navigate that. and the the pain that and navigate that. and the the pain that and navigate that. and the the pain it added to that daughter. I never want it added to that daughter. I never want it added to that daughter. I never want to be in that situation again. Never.

to be in that situation again. Never. to be in that situation again. Never. >> Wow. It's a really good point. And you >> Wow. It's a really good point. And you >> Wow. It's a really good point. And you know, I think to be fair because I' I'm know, I think to be fair because I' I'm know, I think to be fair because I' I'm thinking, you know, social media is 20 thinking, you know, social media is 20 thinking, you know, social media is 20 years old, but I think if that was, years old, but I think if that was, years old, but I think if that was, let's say, even 10 years ago, 15 years let's say, even 10 years ago, 15 years let's say, even 10 years ago, 15 years ago, whatever it was, Beth, um, we ago, whatever it was, Beth, um, we ago, whatever it was, Beth, um, we didn't, we were figuring out social didn't, we were figuring out social didn't, we were figuring out social media as it went along. media as it went along. media as it went along. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And we didn't understand. It was really >> And we didn't understand. It was really >> And we didn't understand. It was really only I'm trying to do a timeline. and only I'm trying to do a timeline. and only I'm trying to do a timeline. and I'm working on a new book on AI and blah I'm working on a new book on AI and blah I'm working on a new book on AI and blah blah blah, but I'm I'm trying to figure blah blah, but I'm I'm trying to figure blah blah, but I'm I'm trying to figure out like I think the unintended out like I think the unintended out like I think the unintended consequences sort of entered the field consequences sort of entered the field consequences sort of entered the field maybe in the mid2010s. maybe in the mid2010s. maybe in the mid2010s. That's the first time they were kind of That's the first time they were kind of That's the first time they were kind of like oh this isn't all good. like oh this isn't all good. like oh this isn't all good. >> And if you're young listening to this, >> And if you're young listening to this, >> And if you're young listening to this, looking back on it was like duh. But we looking back on it was like duh. But we looking back on it was like duh. But we didn't know at the time we were figuring didn't know at the time we were figuring didn't know at the time we were figuring it out. it out. it out. >> 100%. I want to throw this in because >> 100%. I want to throw this in because >> 100%. I want to throw this in because there I would even put it exactly where there I would even put it exactly where there I would even put it exactly where you're putting it on the calendar that you're putting it on the calendar that you're putting it on the calendar that and I've researched it just from my and I've researched it just from my and I've researched it just from my particular observation and I'm a big particular observation and I'm a big particular observation and I'm a big people person so I happen to like the people person so I happen to like the people person so I happen to like the whole social aspect. I'm intrigued by whole social aspect. I'm intrigued by whole social aspect. I'm intrigued by social media all of these things and social media all of these things and social media all of these things and watching cultural trends. This is all up watching cultural trends. This is all up watching cultural trends. This is all up my alley. So I really like that. But my alley. So I really like that. But my alley. So I really like that. But >> there there is a big part of me that >> there there is a big part of me that >> there there is a big part of me that thinks in some ways thinks in some ways thinks in some ways >> that we have to go back and glance at >> that we have to go back and glance at >> that we have to go back and glance at say 10 years ago and and to some extent

say 10 years ago and and to some extent say 10 years ago and and to some extent forgive one another for being caught in forgive one another for being caught in forgive one another for being caught in a mastrom a mastrom a mastrom of social media upheavville. I mean, I'm of social media upheavville. I mean, I'm of social media upheavville. I mean, I'm talking about when this was like the talking about when this was like the talking about when this was like the trash bin was on fire. I mean, it was trash bin was on fire. I mean, it was trash bin was on fire. I mean, it was like and and all of us saying everything like and and all of us saying everything like and and all of us saying everything that came to our minds. And I still that came to our minds. And I still that came to our minds. And I still speak my mind, Carrie, but I'm careful speak my mind, Carrie, but I'm careful speak my mind, Carrie, but I'm careful about it. You know, I I I will give it about it. You know, I I I will give it about it. You know, I I I will give it thought first. When in those days, I I thought first. When in those days, I I thought first. When in those days, I I was just willing to fight. You know what was just willing to fight. You know what was just willing to fight. You know what I'm saying? and and you start asking, I'm saying? and and you start asking, I'm saying? and and you start asking, you look back and go, what what and who you look back and go, what what and who you look back and go, what what and who did it change exactly? And you know what did it change exactly? And you know what did it change exactly? And you know what I'm saying? I'm I'm willing to fight for I'm saying? I'm I'm willing to fight for I'm saying? I'm I'm willing to fight for change, change, change, >> but are we going to fight for no change >> but are we going to fight for no change >> but are we going to fight for no change at all? And in fact, are we going to at all? And in fact, are we going to at all? And in fact, are we going to fight for only for what we were fighting fight for only for what we were fighting fight for only for what we were fighting for to be doubled down on in the for to be doubled down on in the for to be doubled down on in the opposite direction? And it is not opposite direction? And it is not opposite direction? And it is not Carrie, it's not that I would go back Carrie, it's not that I would go back Carrie, it's not that I would go back and change the things I said or or did and change the things I said or or did and change the things I said or or did online. It's that I would not be as online. It's that I would not be as online. It's that I would not be as inclined to do them today. Like I inclined to do them today. Like I inclined to do them today. Like I haven't I can't think of many things haven't I can't think of many things haven't I can't think of many things I've changed my mind about except the I've changed my mind about except the I've changed my mind about except the effectiveness how effective it is to effectiveness how effective it is to effectiveness how effective it is to take on a big fight in public. That is take on a big fight in public. That is take on a big fight in public. That is something that I would uh would say is a

something that I would uh would say is a something that I would uh would say is a colossal waste of time. And my colossal waste of time. And my colossal waste of time. And my >> the answer is it is not effective. Deon >> the answer is it is not effective. Deon >> the answer is it is not effective. Deon being public, but my daughter will say being public, but my daughter will say being public, but my daughter will say we still call it Twitter. So forgive me we still call it Twitter. So forgive me we still call it Twitter. So forgive me cuz I'll I call it X. But um I have a cuz I'll I call it X. But um I have a cuz I'll I call it X. But um I have a good friend that calls it zitter and and good friend that calls it zitter and and good friend that calls it zitter and and I you know I I get that because he just I you know I I get that because he just I you know I I get that because he just puts it together. But my my youngest puts it together. But my my youngest puts it together. But my my youngest daughter puts it this way and I think daughter puts it this way and I think daughter puts it this way and I think about it so often. Yesterday morning, about it so often. Yesterday morning, about it so often. Yesterday morning, Carrie, I deleted uh uh something that I Carrie, I deleted uh uh something that I Carrie, I deleted uh uh something that I was just about to post. I read it and I was just about to post. I read it and I was just about to post. I read it and I thought, do I want to take this on thought, do I want to take this on thought, do I want to take this on today? And then my answer to myself was today? And then my answer to myself was today? And then my answer to myself was no. But she says it this way. She says, no. But she says it this way. She says, no. But she says it this way. She says, I don't hate myself enough to get on I don't hate myself enough to get on I don't hate myself enough to get on Twitter today. [laughter] I think there's a certain part I think there's a certain part [laughter] where that is legit to just [laughter] where that is legit to just [laughter] where that is legit to just say, uh-uh. So, you know, in a way, say, uh-uh. So, you know, in a way, say, uh-uh. So, you know, in a way, I I I do think that there should be some I I I do think that there should be some I I I do think that there should be some grace over a time period that we were grace over a time period that we were grace over a time period that we were caught so offguard. We did not caught so offguard. We did not caught so offguard. We did not understand bots. I I would have thought understand bots. I I would have thought understand bots. I I would have thought every single thing that was being said every single thing that was being said every single thing that was being said to me was being said personally in those to me was being said personally in those to me was being said personally in those days, Carrie, because what I wouldn't days, Carrie, because what I wouldn't days, Carrie, because what I wouldn't have known any different, you know? We have known any different, you know? We have known any different, you know? We >> I think I still think it's all people, >> I think I still think it's all people, >> I think I still think it's all people, not bots.

not bots. not bots. >> Uh yes. Well, >> Uh yes. Well, >> Uh yes. Well, >> I know that's not true, but no, you find >> I know that's not true, but no, you find >> I know that's not true, but no, you find out ways to track it to see and if you out ways to track it to see and if you out ways to track it to see and if you begin to look, there are certain begin to look, there are certain begin to look, there are certain giveaways for a a an account that is not giveaways for a a an account that is not giveaways for a a an account that is not that's fake. Not necessarily a bot, but that's fake. Not necessarily a bot, but that's fake. Not necessarily a bot, but it's fake. it's been it's someone it's fake. it's been it's someone it's fake. it's been it's someone arguing with you that doesn't even know arguing with you that doesn't even know arguing with you that doesn't even know you that's just trying to keep you on you that's just trying to keep you on you that's just trying to keep you on that particular um platform. But it's that particular um platform. But it's that particular um platform. But it's it's just all so intriguing and I think it's just all so intriguing and I think it's just all so intriguing and I think back and back and back and I sort of want to be forgiven for not I sort of want to be forgiven for not I sort of want to be forgiven for not being able to being able to being able to keep a a good a good control on my tongue. And I also have control on my tongue. And I also have control on my tongue. And I also have forgiven some people that haven't asked forgiven some people that haven't asked forgiven some people that haven't asked for it. But I thought, you know what? I for it. But I thought, you know what? I for it. But I thought, you know what? I think your mouse got away from you and think your mouse got away from you and think your mouse got away from you and so did mine. so did mine. so did mine. >> This episode is brought to you by Blade. >> This episode is brought to you by Blade. >> This episode is brought to you by Blade. So you want to lead your church well and So you want to lead your church well and So you want to lead your church well and you've got the gifts, the tools, and the you've got the gifts, the tools, and the you've got the gifts, the tools, and the passion for ministry. So the question passion for ministry. So the question passion for ministry. So the question is, why do you feel stuck? And often is, why do you feel stuck? And often is, why do you feel stuck? And often it's because you lack bandwidth. When it's because you lack bandwidth. When it's because you lack bandwidth. When finances are scattered or admin work finances are scattered or admin work finances are scattered or admin work piles up, your attention gets pulled piles up, your attention gets pulled piles up, your attention gets pulled away from your calling and it gets away from your calling and it gets away from your calling and it gets pushed toward putting out fires. And pushed toward putting out fires. And pushed toward putting out fires. And over time, you begin to lack the over time, you begin to lack the over time, you begin to lack the presence that your ministry actually presence that your ministry actually presence that your ministry actually needs. And that's where our friends at needs. And that's where our friends at needs. And that's where our friends at Blay can help. They provide vetted Blay can help. They provide vetted Blay can help. They provide vetted US-based assistance and financial US-based assistance and financial US-based assistance and financial experts who support church leaders just experts who support church leaders just experts who support church leaders just like you, and you become freed up to

like you, and you become freed up to like you, and you become freed up to focus on the mission. Also, BLE is focus on the mission. Also, BLE is focus on the mission. Also, BLE is giving away downloads of their resource, giving away downloads of their resource, giving away downloads of their resource, the future of financial leadership, the future of financial leadership, the future of financial leadership, absolutely free. It discusses how to absolutely free. It discusses how to absolutely free. It discusses how to manage your church's finances with manage your church's finances with manage your church's finances with efficiency and care, how their financial efficiency and care, how their financial efficiency and care, how their financial experts provide a human touch, and why experts provide a human touch, and why experts provide a human touch, and why it actually matters. So, to get that, it actually matters. So, to get that, it actually matters. So, to get that, text the word Carrie, C A R E Y, to text the word Carrie, C A R E Y, to text the word Carrie, C A R E Y, to 55123 for your free download. That's 55123 for your free download. That's 55123 for your free download. That's Carrie to 55123. Carrie to 55123. Carrie to 55123. Get back to doing what you do best with Get back to doing what you do best with Get back to doing what you do best with Ble. Hey, this episode is brought to you Ble. Hey, this episode is brought to you Ble. Hey, this episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Academy. So, by the Art of Leadership Academy. So, by the Art of Leadership Academy. So, you know, in today's conversation, we're you know, in today's conversation, we're you know, in today's conversation, we're talking about something that's both talking about something that's both talking about something that's both heartbreaking and urgent. The growing heartbreaking and urgent. The growing heartbreaking and urgent. The growing number of women who are leaving the number of women who are leaving the number of women who are leaving the church and the deeper reasons behind it. church and the deeper reasons behind it. church and the deeper reasons behind it. So, I want to share a couple of So, I want to share a couple of So, I want to share a couple of resources with you that can really help resources with you that can really help resources with you that can really help you and your team respond with wisdom, you and your team respond with wisdom, you and your team respond with wisdom, clarity, and trust. So, first of all, I clarity, and trust. So, first of all, I clarity, and trust. So, first of all, I explore this trend in depth in my 2026 explore this trend in depth in my 2026 explore this trend in depth in my 2026 church trends report. One of the most church trends report. One of the most church trends report. One of the most disruptive shifts happening right now is disruptive shifts happening right now is disruptive shifts happening right now is that while young men are showing up in that while young men are showing up in that while young men are showing up in record numbers, which is awesome, women record numbers, which is awesome, women record numbers, which is awesome, women are quietly walking away. And the are quietly walking away. And the are quietly walking away. And the reasons go far beyond headlines. And if reasons go far beyond headlines. And if reasons go far beyond headlines. And if you haven't downloaded the report yet, you haven't downloaded the report yet, you haven't downloaded the report yet, you'll want to get the latest data, my you'll want to get the latest data, my you'll want to get the latest data, my insights, and discussion questions that insights, and discussion questions that insights, and discussion questions that you can actually work through with your you can actually work through with your you can actually work through with your staff or leadership team in your staff or leadership team in your staff or leadership team in your context. And then secondly, if you want context. And then secondly, if you want context. And then secondly, if you want to go deeper and actually build a to go deeper and actually build a to go deeper and actually build a healthier culture in your church, one healthier culture in your church, one healthier culture in your church, one marked by trust, integrity, and strong marked by trust, integrity, and strong marked by trust, integrity, and strong leadership, I want to invite you to join

leadership, I want to invite you to join leadership, I want to invite you to join the Art of Leadership Academy. So, the Art of Leadership Academy. So, the Art of Leadership Academy. So, inside that, you're going to find inside that, you're going to find inside that, you're going to find practical courses, coaching, and a practical courses, coaching, and a practical courses, coaching, and a community of church leaders who are community of church leaders who are community of church leaders who are committed to leading well in a committed to leading well in a committed to leading well in a complicated moment. You don't have to complicated moment. You don't have to complicated moment. You don't have to navigate the challenges your church is navigate the challenges your church is navigate the challenges your church is facing all by yourself. You can start facing all by yourself. You can start facing all by yourself. You can start with an all accessess membership to get with an all accessess membership to get with an all accessess membership to get the clarity and the guidance you need to the clarity and the guidance you need to the clarity and the guidance you need to lead a thriving ministry. So two lead a thriving ministry. So two lead a thriving ministry. So two resources to help grow your leadership. resources to help grow your leadership. resources to help grow your leadership. Number one, the church trends report and Number one, the church trends report and Number one, the church trends report and secondly an all access membership in the secondly an all access membership in the secondly an all access membership in the art of leadership academy. Get both by art of leadership academy. Get both by art of leadership academy. Get both by visiting the link in the description of visiting the link in the description of visiting the link in the description of this episode wherever you're listening. this episode wherever you're listening. this episode wherever you're listening. YouTube, Spotify, Apple, just scroll YouTube, Spotify, Apple, just scroll YouTube, Spotify, Apple, just scroll down, click the link. Soon you'll be on down, click the link. Soon you'll be on down, click the link. Soon you'll be on your way. Or simply visit the your way. Or simply visit the your way. Or simply visit the arttoofleershipacademy.com. arttoofleershipacademy.com. arttoofleershipacademy.com. So, I remember some of those Twitter So, I remember some of those Twitter So, I remember some of those Twitter fights from, you know, 8, 10 years ago, fights from, you know, 8, 10 years ago, fights from, you know, 8, 10 years ago, that kind of thing. And, you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, obviously when you exited the SBC that obviously when you exited the SBC that obviously when you exited the SBC that was quite controversial and you really was quite controversial and you really was quite controversial and you really engaged, you didn't just put yourself engaged, you didn't just put yourself engaged, you didn't just put yourself out there. And I think we covered that out there. And I think we covered that out there. And I think we covered that period well, but I'm going to ask a period well, but I'm going to ask a period well, but I'm going to ask a different question now.

different question now. different question now. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> You know, because I think a lot of a lot >> You know, because I think a lot of a lot >> You know, because I think a lot of a lot of leaders are asking this question. of leaders are asking this question. of leaders are asking this question. What is worth fighting for? Because if What is worth fighting for? Because if What is worth fighting for? Because if it was a dumpster on fire 10 years ago, it was a dumpster on fire 10 years ago, it was a dumpster on fire 10 years ago, it's a toxic sinkhole today for the most it's a toxic sinkhole today for the most it's a toxic sinkhole today for the most part on social media. Is there anything part on social media. Is there anything part on social media. Is there anything in your view worth arguing about on the in your view worth arguing about on the in your view worth arguing about on the internet? internet? internet? >> Oh, absolutely. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Oh, absolutely. And I I want to take that in a little And I I want to take that in a little And I I want to take that in a little more general more general more general >> Sure. Yeah. >> Sure. Yeah. >> Sure. Yeah. >> sphere if you'll let me carry it. One of >> sphere if you'll let me carry it. One of >> sphere if you'll let me carry it. One of the things I try to do, I think this the things I try to do, I think this the things I try to do, I think this through in my marriage. I think this through in my marriage. I think this through in my marriage. I think this through in extended family through in extended family through in extended family crises or or personal dynamics, whatever crises or or personal dynamics, whatever crises or or personal dynamics, whatever it is, and I certainly think this with it is, and I certainly think this with it is, and I certainly think this with social media to be able to think social media to be able to think social media to be able to think through, if not actually pray through, through, if not actually pray through, through, if not actually pray through, which is really what it needs. which is really what it needs. which is really what it needs. >> Am I fighting against or fighting for? >> Am I fighting against or fighting for? >> Am I fighting against or fighting for? And I do think I'm thinking of Paul And I do think I'm thinking of Paul And I do think I'm thinking of Paul talking about talking about talking about the Corinthians for example and when he the Corinthians for example and when he the Corinthians for example and when he said I'm jealous for you said I'm jealous for you said I'm jealous for you that you have a sincere that you have a sincere that you have a sincere wholehearted love for Christ. You know wholehearted love for Christ. You know wholehearted love for Christ. You know he was jealous for them not of them. I he was jealous for them not of them. I he was jealous for them not of them. I think when we are fighting for something think when we are fighting for something think when we are fighting for something and not just against something and I one and not just against something and I one and not just against something and I one of the things that I think characterizes of the things that I think characterizes of the things that I think characterizes our current climate

our current climate our current climate socially is that we have become socially is that we have become socially is that we have become addicted to fighting against I'm not addicted to fighting against I'm not addicted to fighting against I'm not sure half of us know what we're even sure half of us know what we're even sure half of us know what we're even fighting for. We just know what we don't fighting for. We just know what we don't fighting for. We just know what we don't like. We're fighting against it. We're like. We're fighting against it. We're like. We're fighting against it. We're fighting against the other side because fighting against the other side because fighting against the other side because there's something emotionally to be there's something emotionally to be there's something emotionally to be gained by that. I think anger is a huge gained by that. I think anger is a huge gained by that. I think anger is a huge huge um energy drink. I really do. It's huge um energy drink. I really do. It's huge um energy drink. I really do. It's that internal uh IV and it's giving all that internal uh IV and it's giving all that internal uh IV and it's giving all sorts of fuel to to just energy. I think sorts of fuel to to just energy. I think sorts of fuel to to just energy. I think we're exhausted. I think we like to be we're exhausted. I think we like to be we're exhausted. I think we like to be energized and so we're going to get mad energized and so we're going to get mad energized and so we're going to get mad and so we're mad at people instead of and so we're mad at people instead of and so we're mad at people instead of wishing longing for something for them. wishing longing for something for them. wishing longing for something for them. And so I I let's go back to the SBC a And so I I let's go back to the SBC a And so I I let's go back to the SBC a little bit because little bit because little bit because >> I I wouldn't even need to tell you how >> I I wouldn't even need to tell you how >> I I wouldn't even need to tell you how much I loved my denomination. and it much I loved my denomination. and it much I loved my denomination. and it I'm trying to think what would even be I'm trying to think what would even be I'm trying to think what would even be comparable comparable comparable to it as far as something that I to it as far as something that I to it as far as something that I suffered in the last years that would suffered in the last years that would suffered in the last years that would feel like that loss. And I would tell feel like that loss. And I would tell feel like that loss. And I would tell you um right before the you um right before the you um right before the memoir came out, my brother that I talk memoir came out, my brother that I talk memoir came out, my brother that I talk about very fondly, my dear big brother about very fondly, my dear big brother about very fondly, my dear big brother who was just my well my best friend my who was just my well my best friend my who was just my well my best friend my my best friend um he died suddenly of a

my best friend um he died suddenly of a my best friend um he died suddenly of a heart attack and I mean just like heart attack and I mean just like heart attack and I mean just like dropped dead. I no warning, nothing. dropped dead. I no warning, nothing. dropped dead. I no warning, nothing. Just that's when you get a phone call Just that's when you get a phone call Just that's when you get a phone call and it's already over before you have and it's already over before you have and it's already over before you have the chance to even respond or run to a the chance to even respond or run to a the chance to even respond or run to a hospital or get to um anything. And it hospital or get to um anything. And it hospital or get to um anything. And it that the loss of my lifelong that the loss of my lifelong that the loss of my lifelong denomination. It was not sudden like denomination. It was not sudden like denomination. It was not sudden like that. But it was that radical a loss. that. But it was that radical a loss. that. But it was that radical a loss. Absolutely. not just the loss of some of Absolutely. not just the loss of some of Absolutely. not just the loss of some of what it would feel like to lose a what it would feel like to lose a what it would feel like to lose a friend, much dearer than that. And friend, much dearer than that. And friend, much dearer than that. And perhaps the way to put it, if anyone perhaps the way to put it, if anyone perhaps the way to put it, if anyone who's familiar with my story and who's familiar with my story and who's familiar with my story and certainly the memoir knows that my home certainly the memoir knows that my home certainly the memoir knows that my home was not my safe place, Carrie, um, was not my safe place, Carrie, um, was not my safe place, Carrie, um, growing up, my church was. So that I growing up, my church was. So that I growing up, my church was. So that I mean that I I just a lot of people have mean that I I just a lot of people have mean that I I just a lot of people have been hurt by the church. I didn't by been hurt by the church. I didn't by been hurt by the church. I didn't by God's grace and maybe because I was so God's grace and maybe because I was so God's grace and maybe because I was so hurt in my own home. I don't know. A lot hurt in my own home. I don't know. A lot hurt in my own home. I don't know. A lot of people are hurt both places. These of people are hurt both places. These of people are hurt both places. These things we can't sort all of this out.

things we can't sort all of this out. things we can't sort all of this out. But I was not hurt by the church. It was But I was not hurt by the church. It was But I was not hurt by the church. It was a safe place and always was. I I can't a safe place and always was. I I can't a safe place and always was. I I can't think there were churches that are are think there were churches that are are think there were churches that are are are more um dear to me in my in in my are more um dear to me in my in in my are more um dear to me in my in in my history than others, but all were a history than others, but all were a history than others, but all were a blessing. And I didn't even have all blessing. And I didn't even have all blessing. And I didn't even have all that many probably five in my lifetime. that many probably five in my lifetime. that many probably five in my lifetime. And and those were because of primarily And and those were because of primarily And and those were because of primarily over moves. But um when it so when it over moves. But um when it so when it over moves. But um when it so when it when that brokenness came, it was a when that brokenness came, it was a when that brokenness came, it was a sense of losing family, losing home. No, sense of losing family, losing home. No, sense of losing family, losing home. No, losing home, losing home. And a home, losing home, losing home. And a home, losing home, losing home. And a home, but home that that that was my place of but home that that that was my place of but home that that that was my place of belonging. So what what finally brought belonging. So what what finally brought belonging. So what what finally brought that that that decision to pass was that I came to a decision to pass was that I came to a decision to pass was that I came to a place where I realized I had fought so place where I realized I had fought so place where I realized I had fought so hard for something. Going back to hard for something. Going back to hard for something. Going back to [clears throat] what the point that I [clears throat] what the point that I [clears throat] what the point that I was making a few minutes ago. I was was making a few minutes ago. I was was making a few minutes ago. I was fighting so hard for it uh for my fighting so hard for it uh for my fighting so hard for it uh for my denomination for us not to pull so far denomination for us not to pull so far denomination for us not to pull so far into what I'll call and somebody else into what I'll call and somebody else into what I'll call and somebody else won't what I would just call ultra won't what I would just call ultra won't what I would just call ultra fundamentalism. I was just like, "Oh, fundamentalism. I was just like, "Oh, fundamentalism. I was just like, "Oh, please, please, please let's stay a please, please, please let's stay a please, please, please let's stay a bigger tent than that. Um let's this bigger tent than that. Um let's this bigger tent than that. Um let's this this is unrecognizable to me." just this is unrecognizable to me." just this is unrecognizable to me." just fighting for fighting for women to just, fighting for fighting for women to just, fighting for fighting for women to just, you know, have have a place to serve.

you know, have have a place to serve. you know, have have a place to serve. Um, not asking for a certain platform. Um, not asking for a certain platform. Um, not asking for a certain platform. I'm asking do they get to use their I'm asking do they get to use their I'm asking do they get to use their gifts? These were things worth fighting gifts? These were things worth fighting gifts? These were things worth fighting for. And then certainly for the for. And then certainly for the for. And then certainly for the protection of of uh people from abuse. protection of of uh people from abuse. protection of of uh people from abuse. These were oh fighting for. that when These were oh fighting for. that when These were oh fighting for. that when you realize that two things you realize that two things you realize that two things that that that that it's only causing the pull in the that it's only causing the pull in the that it's only causing the pull in the opposite direction and that you've opposite direction and that you've opposite direction and that you've become I've become a what can I a become I've become a what can I a become I've become a what can I a cautionary tale cautionary tale cautionary tale >> where I knew that I was part of what >> where I knew that I was part of what >> where I knew that I was part of what scared other women that were leaders scared other women that were leaders scared other women that were leaders that say for instance were in their 30s that say for instance were in their 30s that say for instance were in their 30s 40s and 50s were very much seeing what 40s and 50s were very much seeing what 40s and 50s were very much seeing what was happening and that some of their was happening and that some of their was happening and that some of their responses would be, I don't want that to responses would be, I don't want that to responses would be, I don't want that to happen to me, so I'm going to now I'm happen to me, so I'm going to now I'm happen to me, so I'm going to now I'm going to retreat. I'm going to pull going to retreat. I'm going to pull going to retreat. I'm going to pull back. I'm going to I'm not even going to back. I'm going to I'm not even going to back. I'm going to I'm not even going to try. These were these were things that try. These were these were things that try. These were these were things that became a concern to me. And the other became a concern to me. And the other became a concern to me. And the other one was that I realized that uh I one was that I realized that uh I one was that I realized that uh I [clears throat] was causing more trouble [clears throat] was causing more trouble [clears throat] was causing more trouble in my denomination. I was no longer a in my denomination. I was no longer a in my denomination. I was no longer a blessing. And I I can't blessing. And I I can't blessing. And I I can't I truly to this day, this was the one my I truly to this day, this was the one my I truly to this day, this was the one my throat. Um I'll never get to where this throat. Um I'll never get to where this throat. Um I'll never get to where this is uh an easy thing for me to get out of is uh an easy thing for me to get out of is uh an easy thing for me to get out of my mouth. I had served it since I was my mouth. I had served it since I was my mouth. I had served it since I was 12.

12. 12. Uh I have never I had never known any Uh I have never I had never known any Uh I have never I had never known any other place, any other denomination. and other place, any other denomination. and other place, any other denomination. and I began literally serving I began literally serving I began literally serving at the same at the time that I would at the same at the time that I would at the same at the time that I would have graduated out of uh VBS, vacation have graduated out of uh VBS, vacation have graduated out of uh VBS, vacation Bible school. Uh so 12 that I started Bible school. Uh so 12 that I started Bible school. Uh so 12 that I started helping with VBS and then started helping with VBS and then started helping with VBS and then started helping with Sunday school and then helping with Sunday school and then helping with Sunday school and then started helping with with um with uh started helping with with um with uh started helping with with um with uh young adolescent girls and all and youth young adolescent girls and all and youth young adolescent girls and all and youth and and then on from there. And you and and then on from there. And you and and then on from there. And you know, I I I loved them and had served so know, I I I loved them and had served so know, I I I loved them and had served so hard and served those women and and hard and served those women and and hard and served those women and and having to come to grips with the fact having to come to grips with the fact having to come to grips with the fact that you you are not you are not a that you you are not you are not a that you you are not you are not a blessing to them anymore. And um blessing to them anymore. And um blessing to them anymore. And um that was that's time to go when you have that was that's time to go when you have that was that's time to go when you have now caused what now caused what now caused what what you feel like are so many problems what you feel like are so many problems what you feel like are so many problems that people just want to see you go. And that people just want to see you go. And that people just want to see you go. And I'm not being pitiful about that and not I'm not being pitiful about that and not I'm not being pitiful about that and not being uh there's no being uh there's no being uh there's no no martyr syndrome in that. Nothing. I'm no martyr syndrome in that. Nothing. I'm no martyr syndrome in that. Nothing. I'm not I don't want to talk like a victim not I don't want to talk like a victim not I don't want to talk like a victim in any stretch. It's just when you in any stretch. It's just when you in any stretch. It's just when you realize that you are not realize that you are not realize that you are not a positive that you have become a a positive that you have become a a positive that you have become a negative and uh that is when you think negative and uh that is when you think negative and uh that is when you think okay I have overstayed my welcome. I'm okay I have overstayed my welcome. I'm okay I have overstayed my welcome. I'm no longer um I'm no longer welcome here.

no longer um I'm no longer welcome here. no longer um I'm no longer welcome here. That's the best way I know to put it. That's the best way I know to put it. That's the best way I know to put it. And I am so happy to tell you Carrie, And I am so happy to tell you Carrie, And I am so happy to tell you Carrie, you know, it's been a while since I've you know, it's been a while since I've you know, it's been a while since I've talked about it. Um, so I can I can talked about it. Um, so I can I can talked about it. Um, so I can I can really feel the lump in my throat. I'm really feel the lump in my throat. I'm really feel the lump in my throat. I'm so happy to tell you that some healing so happy to tell you that some healing so happy to tell you that some healing has come to pass. has come to pass. has come to pass. >> Yeah. How so? >> Yeah. How so? >> Yeah. How so? >> Yes. And I I not from the top. Um I >> Yes. And I I not from the top. Um I >> Yes. And I I not from the top. Um I would not say from not officially and would not say from not officially and would not say from not officially and formally nor even um uh majority. formally nor even um uh majority. formally nor even um uh majority. Uh, [clears throat] Uh, [clears throat] Uh, [clears throat] but as far as but as far as but as far as a number of pastors I've heard from a number of pastors I've heard from a number of pastors I've heard from along the way, invitations that I've along the way, invitations that I've along the way, invitations that I've gotten to come and speak at Southern gotten to come and speak at Southern gotten to come and speak at Southern Baptist churches, uh, and I think just Baptist churches, uh, and I think just Baptist churches, uh, and I think just because time goes by, I I honestly think because time goes by, I I honestly think because time goes by, I I honestly think if I could be so bold that somehow the if I could be so bold that somehow the if I could be so bold that somehow the thought got across and then multiplied. thought got across and then multiplied. thought got across and then multiplied. This this was a hard hard thing to watch This this was a hard hard thing to watch This this was a hard hard thing to watch because you're watching yourself because you're watching yourself because you're watching yourself characterized as someone leaving the characterized as someone leaving the characterized as someone leaving the sound doctrines of the faith when you sound doctrines of the faith when you sound doctrines of the faith when you know that's not true and you you but know that's not true and you you but know that's not true and you you but there's nothing you can do about it. And there's nothing you can do about it. And there's nothing you can do about it. And I so time goes by and I think that some I so time goes by and I think that some I so time goes by and I think that some people were fair enough to just go, people were fair enough to just go, people were fair enough to just go, well, you know, she didn't she didn't well, you know, she didn't she didn't well, you know, she didn't she didn't actually leave the faith like we actually leave the faith like we actually leave the faith like we expected her to. So that's a good that's expected her to. So that's a good that's expected her to. So that's a good that's a gift of time, isn't it?

a gift of time, isn't it? a gift of time, isn't it? >> So some of that you're not quite the >> So some of that you're not quite the >> So some of that you're not quite the heretic. heretic. heretic. >> Not quite the heretic. Not quite. just >> Not quite the heretic. Not quite. just >> Not quite the heretic. Not quite. just sort of you know the the old way where sort of you know the the old way where sort of you know the the old way where no the the ones that are most no the the ones that are most no the the ones that are most conservative they were not the ones that conservative they were not the ones that conservative they were not the ones that that threw open the doors to me in the that threw open the doors to me in the that threw open the doors to me in the first place. So it would have been more first place. So it would have been more first place. So it would have been more the ones that I where I I more the ones that I where I I more the ones that I where I I more prolifically served before. So those prolifically served before. So those prolifically served before. So those have sort of come back around to some have sort of come back around to some have sort of come back around to some extent and decided well may and they may extent and decided well may and they may extent and decided well may and they may have moved on to other Bible studies but have moved on to other Bible studies but have moved on to other Bible studies but they may have decided at that point may they may have decided at that point may they may have decided at that point may maybe she's not the heretic we thought maybe she's not the heretic we thought maybe she's not the heretic we thought she was. [laughter] she was. [laughter] she was. [laughter] >> It is it is funny I left the >> It is it is funny I left the >> It is it is funny I left the denomination almost 20 years ago and I denomination almost 20 years ago and I denomination almost 20 years ago and I got a call yeah Presbyterian um got a call yeah Presbyterian um got a call yeah Presbyterian um >> and I love Presbyterianism I there's so >> and I love Presbyterianism I there's so >> and I love Presbyterianism I there's so much of it to me Tim Keller was the much of it to me Tim Keller was the much of it to me Tim Keller was the embodiment of what Presbyterianism could embodiment of what Presbyterianism could embodiment of what Presbyterianism could be and should be. this be and should be. this be and should be. this >> really admire him and it was one of >> really admire him and it was one of >> really admire him and it was one of those things it was my call to go I just those things it was my call to go I just those things it was my call to go I just saw a couple things I don't want to get saw a couple things I don't want to get saw a couple things I don't want to get into right now that I wasn't comfortable into right now that I wasn't comfortable into right now that I wasn't comfortable sitting with just a a change a drift and sitting with just a a change a drift and sitting with just a a change a drift and so I left and I mean it was a bit of a so I left and I mean it was a bit of a so I left and I mean it was a bit of a story in our country but anyway long story in our country but anyway long story in our country but anyway long story short um I story short um I story short um I got a call two years ago and it was from got a call two years ago and it was from got a call two years ago and it was from somebody high up in the denomination and somebody high up in the denomination and somebody high up in the denomination and he just said hey you were saying things he just said hey you were saying things he just said hey you were saying things 20 years ago. I don't think we were 20 years ago. I don't think we were 20 years ago. I don't think we were ready to hear. Would you come back and ready to hear. Would you come back and ready to hear. Would you come back and share those ideas with us? And I'm like, share those ideas with us? And I'm like, share those ideas with us? And I'm like, you bet I will. I'll I'll be there in a you bet I will. I'll I'll be there in a you bet I will. I'll I'll be there in a heartbeat. And it was just so healing to

heartbeat. And it was just so healing to heartbeat. And it was just so healing to come back. come back. come back. >> It is to share it. >> It is to share it. >> It is to share it. >> It's so healing, Carrie. I did not know >> It's so healing, Carrie. I did not know >> It's so healing, Carrie. I did not know that. do not think we wouldn't have that. do not think we wouldn't have that. do not think we wouldn't have gotten in a conversation a long time ago gotten in a conversation a long time ago gotten in a conversation a long time ago about this and I don't I have this about this and I don't I have this about this and I don't I have this desire it to sit around a a round table desire it to sit around a a round table desire it to sit around a a round table someday which is just you know just a someday which is just you know just a someday which is just you know just a pipe dream but with people that have pipe dream but with people that have pipe dream but with people that have sort of had similar journeys that have sort of had similar journeys that have sort of had similar journeys that have some miles on their some miles on their some miles on their a docket with a ministry that have been a docket with a ministry that have been a docket with a ministry that have been fullon in it and I'm not talking about fullon in it and I'm not talking about fullon in it and I'm not talking about that just a you know maybe attended that just a you know maybe attended that just a you know maybe attended church no I'm talking about that fullon church no I'm talking about that fullon church no I'm talking about that fullon in ministry and and then decades later in ministry and and then decades later in ministry and and then decades later look back over some of it and talk about look back over some of it and talk about look back over some of it and talk about it. I just think that would be the most it. I just think that would be the most it. I just think that would be the most fascinating conversation. But fascinating conversation. But fascinating conversation. But >> I [clears throat] Carrie if I find this >> I [clears throat] Carrie if I find this >> I [clears throat] Carrie if I find this intriguing because would you say that intriguing because would you say that intriguing because would you say that this is true that by the time this is true that by the time this is true that by the time it does start coming back around, it does start coming back around, it does start coming back around, God has God has God has accomplished accomplished accomplished what was purposeful what was purposeful what was purposeful in you. He let it take that much time. I in you. He let it take that much time. I in you. He let it take that much time. I say that say that say that >> Mhm. because God has done so much in >> Mhm. because God has done so much in >> Mhm. because God has done so much in these 10 years. And I look back and I these 10 years. And I look back and I these 10 years. And I look back and I think, how think, how think, how would I have learned those things and would I have learned those things and would I have learned those things and experienced those things and let him do

experienced those things and let him do experienced those things and let him do the the deep work apart from that. And since we're talking apart from that. And since we're talking to leaders, let me say this. to leaders, let me say this. to leaders, let me say this. >> We will get tested. We will. It's not >> We will get tested. We will. It's not >> We will get tested. We will. It's not that we might. If you live long enough that we might. If you live long enough that we might. If you live long enough and you serve long enough and you're in and you serve long enough and you're in and you serve long enough and you're in it, you've given your heart to it, you it, you've given your heart to it, you it, you've given your heart to it, you will not escape a couple of tests that will not escape a couple of tests that will not escape a couple of tests that God is determined for us to pass. And God is determined for us to pass. And God is determined for us to pass. And one of them is will we choose to one of them is will we choose to one of them is will we choose to keep the approval of our mentors and keep the approval of our mentors and keep the approval of our mentors and those to whom we owe things like oh those to whom we owe things like oh those to whom we owe things like oh respect like they did invest so much in respect like they did invest so much in respect like they did invest so much in us. They did uh have uh a lot of favor us. They did uh have uh a lot of favor us. They did uh have uh a lot of favor on us. All these things that will we on us. All these things that will we on us. All these things that will we choose them when we come to some choose them when we come to some choose them when we come to some decisions and we come to this is what I decisions and we come to this is what I decisions and we come to this is what I believe the will of God to be and this believe the will of God to be and this believe the will of God to be and this is where these that I really is where these that I really is where these that I really want to please this is where they are want to please this is where they are want to please this is where they are >> are we going to go with God or are we >> are we going to go with God or are we >> are we going to go with God or are we going to say listen God's more merciful going to say listen God's more merciful going to say listen God's more merciful than people I'm going with them and I'm than people I'm going with them and I'm than people I'm going with them and I'm he's going to forgive me you know and he's going to forgive me you know and he's going to forgive me you know and that this is a temptation that this is a temptation that this is a temptation It sounds It sounds comical, but boy It sounds It sounds comical, but boy It sounds It sounds comical, but boy does this happen. We're going to get does this happen. We're going to get does this happen. We're going to get that that test. We are. We're going to

that that test. We are. We're going to that that test. We are. We're going to be tested on whose approval when it be tested on whose approval when it be tested on whose approval when it comes down to it. There are people who comes down to it. There are people who comes down to it. There are people who we don't we don't care if they approve we don't we don't care if they approve we don't we don't care if they approve or not. I'm talking about the people, or not. I'm talking about the people, or not. I'm talking about the people, your community, your circle, the people your community, your circle, the people your community, your circle, the people that have raised you up in ministry or that have raised you up in ministry or that have raised you up in ministry or have been your compadres or your have been your compadres or your have been your compadres or your partners. when their will departs the partners. when their will departs the partners. when their will departs the will of God for you. What you going to will of God for you. What you going to will of God for you. What you going to do? The other one is we will be tested do? The other one is we will be tested do? The other one is we will be tested on numbers. We will we will and some on numbers. We will we will and some on numbers. We will we will and some sometimes this will be numbers of be it sometimes this will be numbers of be it sometimes this will be numbers of be it followers, the size church, followers, the size church, followers, the size church, >> the size ministry, but numbers may also >> the size ministry, but numbers may also >> the size ministry, but numbers may also be money, finances, be money, finances, be money, finances, uh paycheck, whatever it is. uh paycheck, whatever it is. uh paycheck, whatever it is. Will we accept that once we make a Will we accept that once we make a Will we accept that once we make a particular stand or make a particular particular stand or make a particular particular stand or make a particular decision that we believe is in the will decision that we believe is in the will decision that we believe is in the will of God, will we be willing for it to of God, will we be willing for it to of God, will we be willing for it to have have have really powerful really powerful really powerful effects on all of those things? Are we effects on all of those things? Are we effects on all of those things? Are we negative consequences?

negative consequences? negative consequences? >> Yes. Are we willing to let God use it as >> Yes. Are we willing to let God use it as >> Yes. Are we willing to let God use it as the pruning of our lives? I mean, the pruning of our lives? I mean, the pruning of our lives? I mean, Carrie, when I say the size of our Carrie, when I say the size of our Carrie, when I say the size of our ministry, try to think how many years this when I try to think how many years this when I tell you that tell you that tell you that we went from we went from we went from enormous enormous enormous groups to, groups to, groups to, I mean, downsizing almost overnight. I mean, downsizing almost overnight. I mean, downsizing almost overnight. and to be at peace with that and be able and to be at peace with that and be able and to be at peace with that and be able to say come what may, this is this is to say come what may, this is this is to say come what may, this is this is how it's going to have to be how it's going to have to be how it's going to have to be [clears throat] because [clears throat] because [clears throat] because >> I I've got to go with what I believe the >> I I've got to go with what I believe the >> I I've got to go with what I believe the will of the Lord will of the Lord will of the Lord >> because your convictions Yeah. your >> because your convictions Yeah. your >> because your convictions Yeah. your convictions cost you audience. They cost convictions cost you audience. They cost convictions cost you audience. They cost you dollars. They cost you a lot. you dollars. They cost you a lot. you dollars. They cost you a lot. >> It's not a joke. I mean some of this >> It's not a joke. I mean some of this >> It's not a joke. I mean some of this stuff I there you say well you know stuff I there you say well you know stuff I there you say well you know surely that he'll just bless you. Yes he surely that he'll just bless you. Yes he surely that he'll just bless you. Yes he will. Yes he will and yes he has. I have will. Yes he will and yes he has. I have will. Yes he will and yes he has. I have I had a and have enjoyed a fellowship I had a and have enjoyed a fellowship I had a and have enjoyed a fellowship with the Lord through all of that that I with the Lord through all of that that I with the Lord through all of that that I wouldn't trade anything for. But will he wouldn't trade anything for. But will he wouldn't trade anything for. But will he allow these kinds of things to have uh allow these kinds of things to have uh allow these kinds of things to have uh an enormous impact so that we can an enormous impact so that we can an enormous impact so that we can according to first Peter chapter 1 prove according to first Peter chapter 1 prove according to first Peter chapter 1 prove genuine genuine genuine >> and that he's going to be after that we

>> and that he's going to be after that we >> and that he's going to be after that we no one's going to escape that. no one's going to escape that. no one's going to escape that. >> He will he will test us to prove that we >> He will he will test us to prove that we >> He will he will test us to prove that we really do have it in us. We really are really do have it in us. We really are really do have it in us. We really are people of faith and we will choose him people of faith and we will choose him people of faith and we will choose him when it comes down to it. We're going to when it comes down to it. We're going to when it comes down to it. We're going to choose him over and over and uh you know choose him over and over and uh you know choose him over and over and uh you know is it's going to be painful but is going is it's going to be painful but is going is it's going to be painful but is going to be peace. to be peace. to be peace. >> This episode is brought to you by Glue >> This episode is brought to you by Glue >> This episode is brought to you by Glue Feed. Well, we all know how fast things Feed. Well, we all know how fast things Feed. Well, we all know how fast things move in ministry and how hard it can be move in ministry and how hard it can be move in ministry and how hard it can be to keep up. And that's exactly what the to keep up. And that's exactly what the to keep up. And that's exactly what the Glue Feed is built for. This is a Glue Feed is built for. This is a Glue Feed is built for. This is a totally free regular text that delivers totally free regular text that delivers totally free regular text that delivers the latest research, trending topics, the latest research, trending topics, the latest research, trending topics, and updates from across the church. For and updates from across the church. For and updates from across the church. For example, did you see the surprising example, did you see the surprising example, did you see the surprising reversal in where Americans are trending reversal in where Americans are trending reversal in where Americans are trending in their commitment to Jesus? Or did you in their commitment to Jesus? Or did you in their commitment to Jesus? Or did you catch the fresh insights on where catch the fresh insights on where catch the fresh insights on where pastors say they do not have enough pastors say they do not have enough pastors say they do not have enough support? Well, you would have if you got support? Well, you would have if you got support? Well, you would have if you got the text from the glue feed. This is the the text from the glue feed. This is the the text from the glue feed. This is the best way to stay informed about what best way to stay informed about what best way to stay informed about what matters when it matters without having matters when it matters without having matters when it matters without having to sift through the noise. To get all to sift through the noise. To get all to sift through the noise. To get all the latest research updates on AI and a the latest research updates on AI and a the latest research updates on AI and a whole lot more, all you have to do is go whole lot more, all you have to do is go whole lot more, all you have to do is go to the glue feed. You can text krie c a to the glue feed. You can text krie c a to the glue feed. You can text krie c a r y to 46816 to join for free. That's r y to 46816 to join for free. That's r y to 46816 to join for free. That's carry c a r y to 46816 and you can sign carry c a r y to 46816 and you can sign carry c a r y to 46816 and you can sign up for free today. What is your advice up for free today. What is your advice up for free today. What is your advice when people come up to you and say, "I'm when people come up to you and say, "I'm when people come up to you and say, "I'm thinking of leaving my denomination. I'm thinking of leaving my denomination. I'm thinking of leaving my denomination. I'm thinking of leaving my church." That thinking of leaving my church." That thinking of leaving my church." That kind of thing. But let's keep it at the kind of thing. But let's keep it at the kind of thing. But let's keep it at the macro level, at the highest level.

macro level, at the highest level. macro level, at the highest level. >> I get that question from time to time, >> I get that question from time to time, >> I get that question from time to time, probably because I'd done it. What probably because I'd done it. What probably because I'd done it. What What's your advice to them? What's your advice to them? What's your advice to them? Well, one thing I'm going to ask Well, one thing I'm going to ask Well, one thing I'm going to ask immediately if I'm in the position where immediately if I'm in the position where immediately if I'm in the position where I can, but I'm going to assume that I can, but I'm going to assume that I can, but I'm going to assume that someone's given me that open door if someone's given me that open door if someone's given me that open door if they've asked me, I'm going to ask why. they've asked me, I'm going to ask why. they've asked me, I'm going to ask why. You know, what what is it? What what is You know, what what is it? What what is You know, what what is it? What what is it that you're it that you're it that you're >> Yeah. What are some valid reasons in >> Yeah. What are some valid reasons in >> Yeah. What are some valid reasons in your your your >> Absolutely. Oh. Oh, absolutely. >> Absolutely. Oh. Oh, absolutely. >> Absolutely. Oh. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But also all the way down to Absolutely. But also all the way down to Absolutely. But also all the way down to is this we Gary? We as the people of God is this we Gary? We as the people of God is this we Gary? We as the people of God have to learn to walk with God. We've have to learn to walk with God. We've have to learn to walk with God. We've got to. And I say this because even if got to. And I say this because even if got to. And I say this because even if we are unsettled sometimes we don't know we are unsettled sometimes we don't know we are unsettled sometimes we don't know why God has told us to move. We don't why God has told us to move. We don't why God has told us to move. We don't know. We're just like, and I'm not know. We're just like, and I'm not know. We're just like, and I'm not talking about I've been moving it from talking about I've been moving it from talking about I've been moving it from an entire denomination, but I'm talking an entire denomination, but I'm talking an entire denomination, but I'm talking about anything. about anything. about anything. >> We can just be like, I'm unsettled. I >> We can just be like, I'm unsettled. I >> We can just be like, I'm unsettled. I don't know what it is here. I've always don't know what it is here. I've always don't know what it is here. I've always been so plugged into this church or this been so plugged into this church or this been so plugged into this church or this community and I just feel like God has community and I just feel like God has community and I just feel like God has put the word do on me. I mean that word put the word do on me. I mean that word put the word do on me. I mean that word [clears throat] do uh it is [clears throat] do uh it is [clears throat] do uh it is characteristic of both eras of time with characteristic of both eras of time with characteristic of both eras of time with Abraham in Genesis 12 and with Matthew Abraham in Genesis 12 and with Matthew Abraham in Genesis 12 and with Matthew in the close with the great commission.

in the close with the great commission. in the close with the great commission. Go. So go means ba. I mean it just does. Go. So go means ba. I mean it just does. Go. So go means ba. I mean it just does. There's no going without leaving. And so There's no going without leaving. And so There's no going without leaving. And so it can be a legitimate reason to leave it can be a legitimate reason to leave it can be a legitimate reason to leave just because you cannot get settled that just because you cannot get settled that just because you cannot get settled that the Lord has told you to stay that for the Lord has told you to stay that for the Lord has told you to stay that for some reason you are supposed to leave some reason you are supposed to leave some reason you are supposed to leave that group and it's not because of any that group and it's not because of any that group and it's not because of any wrongdoing. You're just So there's that. wrongdoing. You're just So there's that. wrongdoing. You're just So there's that. I want to go ahead and say that there I want to go ahead and say that there I want to go ahead and say that there are times that we go because God just are times that we go because God just are times that we go because God just goes, I I have another thing I need you goes, I I have another thing I need you goes, I I have another thing I need you to do. Sometimes he'll call us to leave to do. Sometimes he'll call us to leave to do. Sometimes he'll call us to leave when we've never loved that environment when we've never loved that environment when we've never loved that environment more. But he's he's looking for us to more. But he's he's looking for us to more. But he's he's looking for us to obey him. And sometimes it's very obey him. And sometimes it's very obey him. And sometimes it's very costly. But other times, here's here's costly. But other times, here's here's costly. But other times, here's here's what I didn't say it well earlier in our what I didn't say it well earlier in our what I didn't say it well earlier in our conversation, so I'm going to say it conversation, so I'm going to say it conversation, so I'm going to say it >> better now. Perhaps when I would tell >> better now. Perhaps when I would tell >> better now. Perhaps when I would tell you to go is when you flat out can no you to go is when you flat out can no you to go is when you flat out can no longer stay. longer stay. longer stay. >> I I am a stayer. I don't think that's a >> I I am a stayer. I don't think that's a >> I I am a stayer. I don't think that's a real word, but I've it's the only word I real word, but I've it's the only word I real word, but I've it's the only word I have known to use in in conversations have known to use in in conversations have known to use in in conversations like this along the way. Um, you can like this along the way. Um, you can like this along the way. Um, you can look at my marriage look at my marriage look at my marriage of almost 47 years and through lots of of almost 47 years and through lots of of almost 47 years and through lots of ups and downs and my friendships. I have ups and downs and my friendships. I have ups and downs and my friendships. I have lots and lots of long friendships and lots and lots of long friendships and lots and lots of long friendships and long relationships and even with long relationships and even with long relationships and even with publishers. I don't I don't jump around publishers. I don't I don't jump around publishers. I don't I don't jump around much. I like I like the relational much. I like I like the relational much. I like I like the relational aspect of it. So, um my inclination is aspect of it. So, um my inclination is aspect of it. So, um my inclination is going to be to stay. What I have to

going to be to stay. What I have to going to be to stay. What I have to believe in what I would say to others believe in what I would say to others believe in what I would say to others that are in ministry or in some kind of that are in ministry or in some kind of that are in ministry or in some kind of leadership. leadership. leadership. What you're praying for is Lord, you you What you're praying for is Lord, you you What you're praying for is Lord, you you make your ways. Make me where I'm make your ways. Make me where I'm make your ways. Make me where I'm sensitive to the leadership of your sensitive to the leadership of your sensitive to the leadership of your spirit and that when you've got a when spirit and that when you've got a when spirit and that when you've got a when you want me to leave that it will be you want me to leave that it will be you want me to leave that it will be impossible to stay. And one of the impossible to stay. And one of the impossible to stay. And one of the things that that like you're just like things that that like you're just like things that that like you're just like about to jump out of your skin. It may about to jump out of your skin. It may about to jump out of your skin. It may not even be anything negative. But what not even be anything negative. But what not even be anything negative. But what I will say, Carrie, if we would leave I will say, Carrie, if we would leave I will say, Carrie, if we would leave when the Lord says when he first begins, when the Lord says when he first begins, when the Lord says when he first begins, if we'll look back, all of us who've if we'll look back, all of us who've if we'll look back, all of us who've been around as long as you and I have, been around as long as you and I have, been around as long as you and I have, and I'm I'm I'm older, but I'm just and I'm I'm I'm older, but I'm just and I'm I'm I'm older, but I'm just saying we have put in miles with the saying we have put in miles with the saying we have put in miles with the Lord. If we'll look back on our life Lord. If we'll look back on our life Lord. If we'll look back on our life experience in ministry, we will see experience in ministry, we will see experience in ministry, we will see numerous times when the Holy Spirit was numerous times when the Holy Spirit was numerous times when the Holy Spirit was already saying, "I'm I'm detaching you already saying, "I'm I'm detaching you already saying, "I'm I'm detaching you from this group or this community or from this group or this community or from this group or this community or this circle of people or this workplace this circle of people or this workplace this circle of people or this workplace or this part, whatever it may be. I'm or this part, whatever it may be. I'm or this part, whatever it may be. I'm det I have someplace else I want you to det I have someplace else I want you to det I have someplace else I want you to go." We're already knowing we need to go." We're already knowing we need to go." We're already knowing we need to go. We need to go. We need to go. We go. We need to go. We need to go. We go. We need to go. We need to go. We don't want to. We have relationships don't want to. We have relationships don't want to. We have relationships there. So what will happen is because we there. So what will happen is because we there. So what will happen is because we don't want to be sad, we wait until don't want to be sad, we wait until don't want to be sad, we wait until there's a crisis because we're we can there's a crisis because we're we can there's a crisis because we're we can leave better mad than sad.

leave better mad than sad. leave better mad than sad. >> We it happens over and over. So a a >> We it happens over and over. So a a >> We it happens over and over. So a a conflict is forced. Now I'm happy to conflict is forced. Now I'm happy to conflict is forced. Now I'm happy to tell you that did that's not was not the tell you that did that's not was not the tell you that did that's not was not the case with the SBC. I did not I wasn't case with the SBC. I did not I wasn't case with the SBC. I did not I wasn't feeling that desire to um feeling that desire to um feeling that desire to um [clears throat] you know to to leave [clears throat] you know to to leave [clears throat] you know to to leave long before. So that wasn't the case long before. So that wasn't the case long before. So that wasn't the case there. But I can think of I can think of there. But I can think of I can think of there. But I can think of I can think of half a dozen that if I'm looking over 40 half a dozen that if I'm looking over 40 half a dozen that if I'm looking over 40 solid years really a little more than solid years really a little more than solid years really a little more than that over 40 years of ministry. I can that over 40 years of ministry. I can that over 40 years of ministry. I can think of several times I overstayed think of several times I overstayed think of several times I overstayed the will of God and what would have just the will of God and what would have just the will of God and what would have just been sad had to turn into something been sad had to turn into something been sad had to turn into something where I got to whatever degree maybe where I got to whatever degree maybe where I got to whatever degree maybe they ever never even knew but I had to they ever never even knew but I had to they ever never even knew but I had to get mad and conflict happened. get mad and conflict happened. get mad and conflict happened. >> Interesting. I want to go back to >> Interesting. I want to go back to >> Interesting. I want to go back to something you said, you know, your something you said, you know, your something you said, you know, your childhood and you wrote about it in your childhood and you wrote about it in your childhood and you wrote about it in your book. book. book. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, difficult at times. Do you want to talk difficult at times. Do you want to talk difficult at times. Do you want to talk about what happened and how that shows about what happened and how that shows about what happened and how that shows up up up >> later in life for you?

>> later in life for you? >> later in life for you? >> Oh, dear Lord, >> Oh, dear Lord, >> Oh, dear Lord, I think difficult at times is the is I think difficult at times is the is I think difficult at times is the is such a gracious way for you to put that, such a gracious way for you to put that, such a gracious way for you to put that, Carrie. Yes. Um, Carrie. Yes. Um, Carrie. Yes. Um, I was raised, I thank God to be able to I was raised, I thank God to be able to I was raised, I thank God to be able to say, in a church going home. say, in a church going home. say, in a church going home. >> And I what >> And I what >> And I what the debt that I owe my parents for that the debt that I owe my parents for that the debt that I owe my parents for that is inestimable. So, let me say that is inestimable. So, let me say that is inestimable. So, let me say that because again, that was that was my because again, that was that was my because again, that was that was my place of safety. It was a place where I place of safety. It was a place where I place of safety. It was a place where I felt accepted. It's a place where I felt accepted. It's a place where I felt accepted. It's a place where I learned about Jesus in Sunday school. learned about Jesus in Sunday school. learned about Jesus in Sunday school. And you also have to understand when you And you also have to understand when you And you also have to understand when you Okay, so you put me at just just shy of Okay, so you put me at just just shy of Okay, so you put me at just just shy of 70. I'm in a different time time u 70. I'm in a different time time u 70. I'm in a different time time u generation than some of our our generation than some of our our generation than some of our our listeners. So in in my parents' day, a listeners. So in in my parents' day, a listeners. So in in my parents' day, a lot of my peers would tell you that lot of my peers would tell you that lot of my peers would tell you that their parents didn't talk a lot about their parents didn't talk a lot about their parents didn't talk a lot about God at home. That it was mostly we're God at home. That it was mostly we're God at home. That it was mostly we're going to take you to church. That's going to take you to church. That's going to take you to church. That's where that happens. It's not that there where that happens. It's not that there where that happens. It's not that there isn't a blessing said over the meal, but isn't a blessing said over the meal, but isn't a blessing said over the meal, but as far as were my parents raising us up as far as were my parents raising us up as far as were my parents raising us up in the things of the Lord, uh, no. And in the things of the Lord, uh, no. And in the things of the Lord, uh, no. And there wasn't any discussion really about there wasn't any discussion really about there wasn't any discussion really about Bible reading or anything like that. I Bible reading or anything like that. I Bible reading or anything like that. I mean, we we knew where our Bibles were mean, we we knew where our Bibles were mean, we we knew where our Bibles were on Sundays when we got in the car to go on Sundays when we got in the car to go on Sundays when we got in the car to go to church and that kind of thing. But it to church and that kind of thing. But it to church and that kind of thing. But it just it was a bit of a different day.

just it was a bit of a different day. just it was a bit of a different day. And I have some friends that are that um And I have some friends that are that um And I have some friends that are that um Ray Orland's parents very much raised Ray Orland's parents very much raised Ray Orland's parents very much raised him and his his uh family in in the him and his his uh family in in the him and his his uh family in in the Lord. That was not our case, but we did Lord. That was not our case, but we did Lord. That was not our case, but we did go to church. And so I'm very thankful go to church. And so I'm very thankful go to church. And so I'm very thankful for [clears throat] that. for [clears throat] that. for [clears throat] that. >> But our home under the roof of our own >> But our home under the roof of our own >> But our home under the roof of our own home, our lives were so so unstable. home, our lives were so so unstable. home, our lives were so so unstable. My father was uh an unfaithful My father was uh an unfaithful My father was uh an unfaithful man to the Lord. And I say that not as a man to the Lord. And I say that not as a man to the Lord. And I say that not as a judgment of his heart or motive, but judgment of his heart or motive, but judgment of his heart or motive, but because of events that happened, things because of events that happened, things because of events that happened, things from outward actions that certainly from outward actions that certainly from outward actions that certainly conveyed that there was a darkness in conveyed that there was a darkness in conveyed that there was a darkness in that life. So, he was not faithful to my that life. So, he was not faithful to my that life. So, he was not faithful to my mother. um nor was he I'm going to keep mother. um nor was he I'm going to keep mother. um nor was he I'm going to keep this singular to myself because here is this singular to myself because here is this singular to myself because here is where I don't want to tell the stories where I don't want to tell the stories where I don't want to tell the stories of my siblings but they would have their of my siblings but they would have their of my siblings but they would have their stories to tell. Mhm.

stories to tell. Mhm. stories to tell. Mhm. >> I will simply say that what I told for a >> I will simply say that what I told for a >> I will simply say that what I told for a really long time early on early on. So really long time early on early on. So really long time early on early on. So Gary, you know, this is more than you Gary, you know, this is more than you Gary, you know, this is more than you asked, but asked, but asked, but >> I was counseledled as a very young >> I was counseledled as a very young >> I was counseledled as a very young speaker that I I finally told speaker that I I finally told speaker that I I finally told an older woman who did who was a speaker an older woman who did who was a speaker an older woman who did who was a speaker that had mentored me some. I finally that had mentored me some. I finally that had mentored me some. I finally told her that I had been abused as a kid told her that I had been abused as a kid told her that I had been abused as a kid and she said, and I understand why she and she said, and I understand why she and she said, and I understand why she said it. She said, "I would counsel you said it. She said, "I would counsel you said it. She said, "I would counsel you not to tell that publicly." not to tell that publicly." not to tell that publicly." >> She said, "I don't think people can >> She said, "I don't think people can >> She said, "I don't think people can handle that." And I you know what I I handle that." And I you know what I I handle that." And I you know what I I should should should you would think that I would have you would think that I would have you would think that I would have been young enough to cuz I was young to been young enough to cuz I was young to been young enough to cuz I was young to take her counsel and go with it. But I I take her counsel and go with it. But I I take her counsel and go with it. But I I couldn't do it. I couldn't. You'd see it couldn't do it. I couldn't. You'd see it couldn't do it. I couldn't. You'd see it in the very first thing I ever wrote. I in the very first thing I ever wrote. I in the very first thing I ever wrote. I made reference to it because Carrie, I made reference to it because Carrie, I made reference to it because Carrie, I felt like felt like felt like I couldn't even be I couldn't even be I couldn't even be understood. I don't know another way to understood. I don't know another way to understood. I don't know another way to put it. It's not that I want people to put it. It's not that I want people to put it. It's not that I want people to think, "Oh, Beth and in in the first think, "Oh, Beth and in in the first think, "Oh, Beth and in in the first descriptions they'd have of me, oh yes, descriptions they'd have of me, oh yes, descriptions they'd have of me, oh yes, she was she was she was uh victimized as a child." No, I uh victimized as a child." No, I uh victimized as a child." No, I wouldn't even want that in the first wouldn't even want that in the first wouldn't even want that in the first paragraph. But it's part of my journey paragraph. But it's part of my journey paragraph. But it's part of my journey with Jesus.

with Jesus. with Jesus. >> If if you asked me, okay, perfect >> If if you asked me, okay, perfect >> If if you asked me, okay, perfect example. People, young women will say to example. People, young women will say to example. People, young women will say to me all the time, I want what you have. I me all the time, I want what you have. I me all the time, I want what you have. I I I cannot I cannot tell you. And I I I cannot I cannot tell you. And I I I cannot I cannot tell you. And I understand what they mean because I knew understand what they mean because I knew understand what they mean because I knew people that I thought, I want what you people that I thought, I want what you people that I thought, I want what you have. I want what you have. And and it have. I want what you have. And and it have. I want what you have. And and it really has something beautiful at the really has something beautiful at the really has something beautiful at the root of it that you have to go down into root of it that you have to go down into root of it that you have to go down into and realize it's not the person, but and realize it's not the person, but and realize it's not the person, but it's that year for Jesus. But one thing it's that year for Jesus. But one thing it's that year for Jesus. But one thing that I always say back to him is well if that I always say back to him is well if that I always say back to him is well if you want what I have you sure don't want you want what I have you sure don't want you want what I have you sure don't want how I got it because how I got it because how I got it because >> no and that's the thing right you sign >> no and that's the thing right you sign >> no and that's the thing right you sign up for someone's whole life everything up for someone's whole life everything up for someone's whole life everything that shaped them that shaped them that shaped them >> and they don't want my whole life so >> and they don't want my whole life so >> and they don't want my whole life so life goes on and so it becomes very much life goes on and so it becomes very much life goes on and so it becomes very much a part of my that's open then the Bible a part of my that's open then the Bible a part of my that's open then the Bible studies many of them all I would make studies many of them all I would make studies many of them all I would make some kind of reference to it any any some kind of reference to it any any some kind of reference to it any any woman that had been with me for years in woman that had been with me for years in woman that had been with me for years in Bible study would have known that I had Bible study would have known that I had Bible study would have known that I had a a a a background of of abuse. Uh but I a a a a background of of abuse. Uh but I a a a a background of of abuse. Uh but I just never told who. But when I went to just never told who. But when I went to just never told who. But when I went to write the memoir, so I was almost, you write the memoir, so I was almost, you write the memoir, so I was almost, you know, I was creeping in on 65 >> and >> and I had wanted I had wanted I had wanted for a couple of years. I was beginning for a couple of years. I was beginning for a couple of years. I was beginning to be inclined to to wish I could tell to be inclined to to wish I could tell to be inclined to to wish I could tell it that it was my own it was my own it that it was my own it was my own it that it was my own it was my own father and it was within my own home and father and it was within my own home and father and it was within my own home and uh and uh and uh and nuclear family because Harry it's that's

nuclear family because Harry it's that's nuclear family because Harry it's that's a big one that's a big one and I was a big one that's a big one and I was a big one that's a big one and I was just I had come to a place where I just I had come to a place where I just I had come to a place where I wished wished wished those people who have my kind of those people who have my kind of those people who have my kind of background background background they need hope so badly when it is that they need hope so badly when it is that they need hope so badly when it is that personal when your protector has become personal when your protector has become personal when your protector has become your perpetrator. You're now in a you're your perpetrator. You're now in a you're your perpetrator. You're now in a you're in in a zone. You need Jesus and you in in a zone. You need Jesus and you in in a zone. You need Jesus and you need need need >> good good support and help so >> good good support and help so >> good good support and help so desperately and good professional help desperately and good professional help desperately and good professional help and good the this is now this will mess and good the this is now this will mess and good the this is now this will mess you up. And so I got so you up. And so I got so you up. And so I got so stirred in my heart to share it. So I stirred in my heart to share it. So I stirred in my heart to share it. So I did in the memoir um I shared it and uh did in the memoir um I shared it and uh did in the memoir um I shared it and uh so I can't I don't so I can't I don't so I can't I don't know who I who I would have been when we know who I who I would have been when we know who I who I would have been when we say how what impact has that had on your say how what impact has that had on your say how what impact has that had on your ministry. Mhm.

ministry. Mhm. ministry. Mhm. >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, >> I can't think >> I can't think >> I can't think who I would have been. It it I don't who I would have been. It it I don't who I would have been. It it I don't want anyone to misunderstand that I'm want anyone to misunderstand that I'm want anyone to misunderstand that I'm saying it was worth it to me. saying it was worth it to me. saying it was worth it to me. >> I'm not saying God let it happen so I >> I'm not saying God let it happen so I >> I'm not saying God let it happen so I would be uh would be uh would be uh more um [clears throat] deeply inclined more um [clears throat] deeply inclined more um [clears throat] deeply inclined in misery. I'm not saying any of that. in misery. I'm not saying any of that. in misery. I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying God is faithful not to waste I'm saying God is faithful not to waste I'm saying God is faithful not to waste anything. And what he did, anything. And what he did, anything. And what he did, he gave me such a heart for women. he gave me such a heart for women. he gave me such a heart for women. Um, such a heart to encourage them in Um, such a heart to encourage them in Um, such a heart to encourage them in the dignity that they have in Christ and the dignity that they have in Christ and the dignity that they have in Christ and who they are in Christ. And he gave me who they are in Christ. And he gave me who they are in Christ. And he gave me it gave me so much compassion it gave me so much compassion it gave me so much compassion and um, and empathy. And I'm not scared and um, and empathy. And I'm not scared and um, and empathy. And I'm not scared to use that word. I can to use that word. I can to use that word. I can >> look at a group of women that maybe >> look at a group of women that maybe >> look at a group of women that maybe we've maybe the group has been pulled we've maybe the group has been pulled we've maybe the group has been pulled together because it's women who were together because it's women who were together because it's women who were hurting and I can go into that zone. I hurting and I can go into that zone. I hurting and I can go into that zone. I can touch that place in my heart and I can touch that place in my heart and I can touch that place in my heart and I can I can feel so much of what they're can I can feel so much of what they're can I can feel so much of what they're feeling. And so feeling. And so feeling. And so I was I just it was part of what shaped I was I just it was part of what shaped I was I just it was part of what shaped me and I me and I me and I I just I would not be the same person.

I just I would not be the same person. I just I would not be the same person. It shaped how I It shaped how I It shaped how I applied the word. Okay. Okay. Carrie, I applied the word. Okay. Okay. Carrie, I applied the word. Okay. Okay. Carrie, I I had to apply the scriptures. I didn't I had to apply the scriptures. I didn't I had to apply the scriptures. I didn't get the get the get the >> luxury of just studying to study. I >> luxury of just studying to study. I >> luxury of just studying to study. I wasn't going to make it. And I mean this wasn't going to make it. And I mean this wasn't going to make it. And I mean this all through. So I don't mean that this all through. So I don't mean that this all through. So I don't mean that this was true when I was 16, 18, 21. I'm was true when I was 16, 18, 21. I'm was true when I was 16, 18, 21. I'm saying full grown adult, 30s, 40s, and saying full grown adult, 30s, 40s, and saying full grown adult, 30s, 40s, and so forth. I so forth. I so forth. I I just don't have that option. I'm I had I just don't have that option. I'm I had I just don't have that option. I'm I had too many things stacked against me. I too many things stacked against me. I too many things stacked against me. I have It's too challenging. It's too It have It's too challenging. It's too It have It's too challenging. It's too It caused consequences caused consequences caused consequences that I still deal with today. Um now the that I still deal with today. Um now the that I still deal with today. Um now the healing the emotional healing of it I'm healing the emotional healing of it I'm healing the emotional healing of it I'm so thankful to say is um has is so thankful to say is um has is so thankful to say is um has is advanced. Uh so that that I praise God advanced. Uh so that that I praise God advanced. Uh so that that I praise God for. that um oh it's it's a a huge thing for. that um oh it's it's a a huge thing for. that um oh it's it's a a huge thing and and and important to me. It's important to me important to me. It's important to me important to me. It's important to me that whatever the Lord allowed in my that whatever the Lord allowed in my that whatever the Lord allowed in my path that to to me redemption is that he path that to to me redemption is that he path that to to me redemption is that he turns around turns around turns around this is going to sound corny but and this is going to sound corny but and this is going to sound corny but and makes the devil sorry he messed with me.

makes the devil sorry he messed with me. makes the devil sorry he messed with me. you know, almost 800 interviews in and you know, almost 800 interviews in and you know, almost 800 interviews in and I'm really sorry for what happened to I'm really sorry for what happened to I'm really sorry for what happened to you, Beth, as a as a child. I really am. you, Beth, as a as a child. I really am. you, Beth, as a as a child. I really am. But what I hear over and over again from But what I hear over and over again from But what I hear over and over again from the people that I interview is whatever the people that I interview is whatever the people that I interview is whatever their story is, whether it was abuse or their story is, whether it was abuse or their story is, whether it was abuse or it could be, you know, being raised in it could be, you know, being raised in it could be, you know, being raised in poverty or with single parents or as an poverty or with single parents or as an poverty or with single parents or as an orphan after their parents were killed orphan after their parents were killed orphan after their parents were killed >> or something like that, because you hear >> or something like that, because you hear >> or something like that, because you hear variations of so many stories. variations of so many stories. variations of so many stories. And a lot of these leaders, they become, And a lot of these leaders, they become, And a lot of these leaders, they become, I wouldn't say grateful for, but I wouldn't say grateful for, but I wouldn't say grateful for, but reconciled to the fact that, yeah, that reconciled to the fact that, yeah, that reconciled to the fact that, yeah, that is the childhood. That's part of my DNA is the childhood. That's part of my DNA is the childhood. That's part of my DNA in the same way that you could have been in the same way that you could have been in the same way that you could have been raised in a wealthy home or non-abusive raised in a wealthy home or non-abusive raised in a wealthy home or non-abusive home home home >> or that kind of thing. And it propelled >> or that kind of thing. And it propelled >> or that kind of thing. And it propelled them on, them on, them on, >> correct? >> correct? >> correct? >> To to create a drive in them or a >> To to create a drive in them or a >> To to create a drive in them or a something in them that propelled them to something in them that propelled them to something in them that propelled them to where they are today. where they are today. where they are today. >> It It's true. >> It It's true. >> It It's true. >> Do you see that pattern in your life, >> Do you see that pattern in your life, >> Do you see that pattern in your life, Beth? 100%. Beth? 100%. Beth? 100%. That's That's why you look back and That's That's why you look back and That's That's why you look back and think, I'm so glad I can't do it all think, I'm so glad I can't do it all think, I'm so glad I can't do it all over over over and get to choose what's in it and and get to choose what's in it and and get to choose what's in it and what's not in my story what's not in my story what's not in my story >> because this >> because this >> because this this is what this is what this is what God put together that all blended. You God put together that all blended. You God put together that all blended. You know, we're a blend of our know, we're a blend of our know, we're a blend of our our DNA, our our DNA, our our DNA, our all the things that were poured into us all the things that were poured into us all the things that were poured into us through whatever education, lack of

through whatever education, lack of through whatever education, lack of formal education, whatever it may be. formal education, whatever it may be. formal education, whatever it may be. All of these things, our skills, our our All of these things, our skills, our our All of these things, our skills, our our spiritual gifting, whatever it is, all spiritual gifting, whatever it is, all spiritual gifting, whatever it is, all of this, all of this comes together. All of this, all of this comes together. All of this, all of this comes together. All of these forces come together and make of these forces come together and make of these forces come together and make this person. and to just be able to this person. and to just be able to this person. and to just be able to trust him with the healthiest version, trust him with the healthiest version, trust him with the healthiest version, let me say that, the healthiest version let me say that, the healthiest version let me say that, the healthiest version of that person uh that you can possibly of that person uh that you can possibly of that person uh that you can possibly be. But it's been precious to me be. But it's been precious to me be. But it's been precious to me to look back over it and be able to say, to look back over it and be able to say, to look back over it and be able to say, "Okay, the Lord was faithful with every "Okay, the Lord was faithful with every "Okay, the Lord was faithful with every strand of that story." And I'll tell strand of that story." And I'll tell strand of that story." And I'll tell you, Gary, at the end, so I don't know you, Gary, at the end, so I don't know you, Gary, at the end, so I don't know how you write and I don't know how how you write and I don't know how how you write and I don't know how others write that may be tuned in uh to others write that may be tuned in uh to others write that may be tuned in uh to us, but I usually when I'm writing a us, but I usually when I'm writing a us, but I usually when I'm writing a book, I'm sending in parts of it. Like book, I'm sending in parts of it. Like book, I'm sending in parts of it. Like I've talked it through with the I've talked it through with the I've talked it through with the publisher and editor and we've we've got publisher and editor and we've we've got publisher and editor and we've we've got it shaped where I want to go with it and it shaped where I want to go with it and it shaped where I want to go with it and I've gotten them the first couple of I've gotten them the first couple of I've gotten them the first couple of chapters, but after that point, I sort chapters, but after that point, I sort chapters, but after that point, I sort of write it as I go. And so I don't turn of write it as I go. And so I don't turn of write it as I go. And so I don't turn it in as one finished work. And other it in as one finished work. And other it in as one finished work. And other people may, but but um [clears throat] people may, but but um [clears throat] people may, but but um [clears throat] that's just not the way I've done it.

that's just not the way I've done it. that's just not the way I've done it. And so the first time I read it from And so the first time I read it from And so the first time I read it from beginning to end, beginning to end, beginning to end, I mean, Carrie, I mean, Carrie, I mean, Carrie, I mean, I just I just sat and wept and I I mean, I just I just sat and wept and I I mean, I just I just sat and wept and I did not weep with a single did not weep with a single did not weep with a single thread of sorrow. It was like, dear God thread of sorrow. It was like, dear God thread of sorrow. It was like, dear God in heaven, you have taken care of me. I in heaven, you have taken care of me. I in heaven, you have taken care of me. I just thought the upheaval, the things he just thought the upheaval, the things he just thought the upheaval, the things he had brought me through this ride, this had brought me through this ride, this had brought me through this ride, this roller coaster ride that we had been on roller coaster ride that we had been on roller coaster ride that we had been on together and I mean Jesus in me that we together and I mean Jesus in me that we together and I mean Jesus in me that we had been on together. Um I was had been on together. Um I was had been on together. Um I was overwhelmed by the grace overwhelmed by the grace overwhelmed by the grace >> and uh so >> and uh so >> and uh so it it is it's redemption. I think that's it it is it's redemption. I think that's it it is it's redemption. I think that's what redemption is. He buys it back. what redemption is. He buys it back. what redemption is. He buys it back. >> It's not an abstract theological >> It's not an abstract theological >> It's not an abstract theological concept. It's tangible.

concept. It's tangible. concept. It's tangible. >> It is >> It is >> It is >> in real life. >> in real life. >> in real life. >> And there's just there's accepting it. >> And there's just there's accepting it. >> And there's just there's accepting it. Um just coming to accept it and to know Um just coming to accept it and to know Um just coming to accept it and to know that you were that you were that you were >> here's here's the thing, Carrie, that we >> here's here's the thing, Carrie, that we >> here's here's the thing, Carrie, that we have not talked about and it's not have not talked about and it's not have not talked about and it's not necessarily where we um it might be a necessarily where we um it might be a necessarily where we um it might be a rabbit trail to us, but it wasn't just rabbit trail to us, but it wasn't just rabbit trail to us, but it wasn't just the abuse. Like many abuse victims, the abuse. Like many abuse victims, the abuse. Like many abuse victims, there are there are there are repercussions of of of those things and repercussions of of of those things and repercussions of of of those things and ways of acting out of those things ways of acting out of those things ways of acting out of those things before you're able to ever get on some before you're able to ever get on some before you're able to ever get on some kind of road to healing. So the kind of road to healing. So the kind of road to healing. So the decisions I made out of it, the decisions I made out of it, the decisions I made out of it, the disastrous decisions, the the disastrous decisions, the the disastrous decisions, the the self-destruction and the just just the self-destruction and the just just the self-destruction and the just just the sin, you know, uh that I would cycle in sin, you know, uh that I would cycle in sin, you know, uh that I would cycle in and out of that. and out of that. and out of that. That's that's that is a tough part of That's that's that is a tough part of That's that's that is a tough part of the story. I look back over my life and the story. I look back over my life and the story. I look back over my life and it's part of the why I got to the end of it's part of the why I got to the end of it's part of the why I got to the end of that memoir and and really wept when I that memoir and and really wept when I that memoir and and really wept when I read the whole thing was because I read the whole thing was because I read the whole thing was because I thought how gracious the Lord had been thought how gracious the Lord had been thought how gracious the Lord had been to me because if you asked me Beth had to me because if you asked me Beth had to me because if you asked me Beth had what what would you say had been the what what would you say had been the what what would you say had been the biggest cause of damage biggest cause of damage biggest cause of damage >> to your who's done you the most wrong of >> to your who's done you the most wrong of >> to your who's done you the most wrong of anyone? You know, I would say me.

anyone? You know, I would say me. anyone? You know, I would say me. >> I did. I did. And >> I did. I did. And >> I did. I did. And >> so what what did that damage look like >> so what what did that damage look like >> so what what did that damage look like in your life? What the the pattern of in your life? What the the pattern of in your life? What the the pattern of self-destruction, the quote sin that you self-destruction, the quote sin that you self-destruction, the quote sin that you mentioned, Beth? What what was that? How mentioned, Beth? What what was that? How mentioned, Beth? What what was that? How did that manifest in your life? did that manifest in your life? did that manifest in your life? >> Well, I had without being graphic >> Well, I had without being graphic >> Well, I had without being graphic anyway, zero boundaries, which is very anyway, zero boundaries, which is very anyway, zero boundaries, which is very common. So with I have said so many common. So with I have said so many common. So with I have said so many times to people one reason why it is so times to people one reason why it is so times to people one reason why it is so important that we important that we important that we have our communities have our communities have our communities certainly our churches where they are as certainly our churches where they are as certainly our churches where they are as protected as as as possible from protected as as as possible from protected as as as possible from predators and abusers is be is not only predators and abusers is be is not only predators and abusers is be is not only because of the pain of the abuse and because of the pain of the abuse and because of the pain of the abuse and what that is causing. person, but the what that is causing. person, but the what that is causing. person, but the kinds of decisions, the repercussions of kinds of decisions, the repercussions of kinds of decisions, the repercussions of it, the kinds of decisions that we will it, the kinds of decisions that we will it, the kinds of decisions that we will tend to make and I I I want to with tend to make and I I I want to with tend to make and I I I want to with every abuse victim, it it would be every abuse victim, it it would be every abuse victim, it it would be different. So, their story is not going different. So, their story is not going different. So, their story is not going to be my story, but there will be many to be my story, but there will be many to be my story, but there will be many who would say the same thing as me in who would say the same thing as me in who would say the same thing as me in that we went on to build relationships.

that we went on to build relationships. that we went on to build relationships. if you knew I was so young. I do not if you knew I was so young. I do not if you knew I was so young. I do not remember life prior to being mishandled remember life prior to being mishandled remember life prior to being mishandled and unstable and having an unstable and unstable and having an unstable and unstable and having an unstable home. So, I don't have I don't have any home. So, I don't have I don't have any home. So, I don't have I don't have any memory of that. I certainly have a memory of that. I certainly have a memory of that. I certainly have a memory of when I would tell you I was memory of when I would tell you I was memory of when I would tell you I was assaulted assaulted assaulted >> and um by that family member, but uh I >> and um by that family member, but uh I >> and um by that family member, but uh I was already showing signs of things was already showing signs of things was already showing signs of things going very arai um by early childhood. going very arai um by early childhood. going very arai um by early childhood. So, I'm making decisions out of that. So, I'm making decisions out of that. So, I'm making decisions out of that. Then every relational decision, um, Then every relational decision, um, Then every relational decision, um, every everyone I dated, all of the every everyone I dated, all of the every everyone I dated, all of the things, the people that I was drawn to, things, the people that I was drawn to, things, the people that I was drawn to, the kinds of relationships I was drawn the kinds of relationships I was drawn the kinds of relationships I was drawn to, the ways I would set myself up to be to, the ways I would set myself up to be to, the ways I would set myself up to be hurt, and the ways I would set myself up hurt, and the ways I would set myself up hurt, and the ways I would set myself up to be because I had so little esteem for because I had so little esteem for myself, myself, myself, I would not hunt out people that would I would not hunt out people that would I would not hunt out people that would treat me any differently than I would treat me any differently than I would treat me any differently than I would treat self. So, treat self. So, treat self. So, >> which was not well. >> which was not well. >> which was not well. >> It was not well. So, it it was a mess.

>> It was not well. So, it it was a mess. >> It was not well. So, it it was a mess. And then [clears throat] you have you And then [clears throat] you have you And then [clears throat] you have you have all the have all the have all the the fruit the the poor fruit of that of the fruit the the poor fruit of that of the fruit the the poor fruit of that of just bad decisions and and um just bad decisions and and um just bad decisions and and um attracting, attracting, attracting, you know, I've said so many times, I'm you know, I've said so many times, I'm you know, I've said so many times, I'm sure this is not always true. This is sure this is not always true. This is sure this is not always true. This is not everybody's story, but baggage not everybody's story, but baggage not everybody's story, but baggage attracts baggage. I mean, it just does. attracts baggage. I mean, it just does. attracts baggage. I mean, it just does. And so that's what I attracted in my And so that's what I attracted in my And so that's what I attracted in my relationships, in my dating life. Um, relationships, in my dating life. Um, relationships, in my dating life. Um, sometimes it looked bad. It always sometimes it looked bad. It always sometimes it looked bad. It always looked cute. looked cute. looked cute. >> It always looked cute cuz I was drawn to >> It always looked cute cuz I was drawn to >> It always looked cute cuz I was drawn to cute, cute, cute, >> but um unhealthy >> but um unhealthy >> but um unhealthy >> and then that has all sorts of um, >> and then that has all sorts of um, >> and then that has all sorts of um, you know, it has a contagion effect. So you know, it has a contagion effect. So you know, it has a contagion effect. So tough and so regret to not I I'm so glad tough and so regret to not I I'm so glad tough and so regret to not I I'm so glad I get to say this to some someone in I get to say this to some someone in I get to say this to some someone in leadership. leadership. leadership. >> Um you've got to deal with that chronic >> Um you've got to deal with that chronic >> Um you've got to deal with that chronic regret. You've got to cuz it will eat regret. You've got to cuz it will eat regret. You've got to cuz it will eat you alive and it will come back to bite you alive and it will come back to bite you alive and it will come back to bite you over and over again and send you you over and over again and send you you over and over again and send you back into the same cycle. So there's got back into the same cycle. So there's got back into the same cycle. So there's got to be this to be this to be this distinguishing the difference between distinguishing the difference between distinguishing the difference between deep heart repentance deep heart repentance deep heart repentance and then this chronic self-destructive and then this chronic self-destructive and then this chronic self-destructive regret where you just can't get over regret where you just can't get over regret where you just can't get over long after the Lord had forgiven me for long after the Lord had forgiven me for long after the Lord had forgiven me for my sins, Carrie. And that I had changed.

my sins, Carrie. And that I had changed. my sins, Carrie. And that I had changed. I mean that pattern I no longer had the I mean that pattern I no longer had the I mean that pattern I no longer had the pattern. I had repented. pattern. I had repented. pattern. I had repented. I still would ask him forgiveness over I still would ask him forgiveness over I still would ask him forgiveness over and over again for I'd still go back to and over again for I'd still go back to and over again for I'd still go back to it and go, "I'm so sorry. I'm so it and go, "I'm so sorry. I'm so it and go, "I'm so sorry. I'm so >> I feel like according to his word, >> I feel like according to his word, >> I feel like according to his word, because he throws those things in the because he throws those things in the because he throws those things in the depths of the sea." depths of the sea." depths of the sea." >> I feel like probably the Lord was going, >> I feel like probably the Lord was going, >> I feel like probably the Lord was going, "What things are you talking about?" "What things are you talking about?" "What things are you talking about?" >> You know what I'm saying? >> You know what I'm saying? >> You know what I'm saying? >> But no, I was going to repeat them to >> But no, I was going to repeat them to >> But no, I was going to repeat them to him over and over again because I him over and over again because I him over and over again because I couldn't deal with my regret. couldn't deal with my regret. couldn't deal with my regret. >> Guilt. Regret. >> Guilt. Regret. >> Guilt. Regret. >> Guilt. And guilt misplaced false guilt >> Guilt. And guilt misplaced false guilt >> Guilt. And guilt misplaced false guilt because those things uh they had not because those things uh they had not because those things uh they had not been swept under a carpet. They had been been swept under a carpet. They had been been swept under a carpet. They had been pursued deeply and repented of and and pursued deeply and repented of and and pursued deeply and repented of and and and my decisions and my decisions and my decisions changed and come into changed and come into changed and come into you know conformity with the will of you know conformity with the will of you know conformity with the will of Christ in that area. So it was I mean Christ in that area. So it was I mean Christ in that area. So it was I mean not only guilt but misplaced guilt. It not only guilt but misplaced guilt. It not only guilt but misplaced guilt. It was not not having enough faith in the was not not having enough faith in the was not not having enough faith in the Lord. It was like I can do my part. I Lord. It was like I can do my part. I Lord. It was like I can do my part. I can repent, but you can't do your part can repent, but you can't do your part can repent, but you can't do your part and actually forgive me like you said and actually forgive me like you said and actually forgive me like you said you would.

you would. you would. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> it's a it's unbelief. >> it's a it's unbelief. >> it's a it's unbelief. >> Beth, the home was not a safe place for >> Beth, the home was not a safe place for >> Beth, the home was not a safe place for you. But you mentioned the church was, you. But you mentioned the church was, you. But you mentioned the church was, but then the church has not been a safe but then the church has not been a safe but then the church has not been a safe place for a lot of women. place for a lot of women. place for a lot of women. >> Hasn't been a safe place for a lot of >> Hasn't been a safe place for a lot of >> Hasn't been a safe place for a lot of people. people. people. >> And I know you've been very vocal on >> And I know you've been very vocal on >> And I know you've been very vocal on that. that. that. Do you want to talk about um Do you want to talk about um Do you want to talk about um that phenomena? You're probably familiar that phenomena? You're probably familiar that phenomena? You're probably familiar with some of the new data from Bara and with some of the new data from Bara and with some of the new data from Bara and I hope 2026 will be a year where we go I hope 2026 will be a year where we go I hope 2026 will be a year where we go deeper into the data, deeper into the data, deeper into the data, >> get some fresh insight, but like women >> get some fresh insight, but like women >> get some fresh insight, but like women are leaving the church are leaving the church are leaving the church >> very very quickly. You probably see that >> very very quickly. You probably see that >> very very quickly. You probably see that in your own audience, you know. Yes. in your own audience, you know. Yes. in your own audience, you know. Yes. >> That that they're like, I'm just done >> That that they're like, I'm just done >> That that they're like, I'm just done with this. Mhm. I told my friend Ed with this. Mhm. I told my friend Ed with this. Mhm. I told my friend Ed Stzer, I said, "I could have told you Stzer, I said, "I could have told you Stzer, I said, "I could have told you this before you ever did the data and this before you ever did the data and this before you ever did the data and not and I'm not being a smart and our not and I'm not being a smart and our not and I'm not being a smart and our good friend, so we can we can good friend, so we can we can good friend, so we can we can >> Exactly. I don't need a study. I don't >> Exactly. I don't need a study. I don't >> Exactly. I don't need a study. I don't need a study." Right. need a study." Right. need a study." Right. >> But I was very intrigued to see that it >> But I was very intrigued to see that it >> But I was very intrigued to see that it could be documented. could be documented. could be documented. >> Yeah. And it's it's apparently >> Yeah. And it's it's apparently >> Yeah. And it's it's apparently accelerating, which is uh you know, accelerating, which is uh you know, accelerating, which is uh you know, alarming. It's great that young men are alarming. It's great that young men are alarming. It's great that young men are returning to church, but the women are returning to church, but the women are returning to church, but the women are going in the opposite direction. And I going in the opposite direction. And I going in the opposite direction. And I just would love your thoughts on just would love your thoughts on just would love your thoughts on >> that. I mean, we ultimately pay for our >> that. I mean, we ultimately pay for our >> that. I mean, we ultimately pay for our sins. The church [clears throat] has not sins. The church [clears throat] has not sins. The church [clears throat] has not been a safe place for everybody. It's been a safe place for everybody. It's been a safe place for everybody. It's been a safe place for a lot of people, been a safe place for a lot of people, been a safe place for a lot of people, but not a safe place for enough people.

but not a safe place for enough people. but not a safe place for enough people. >> What are your thoughts on that and the >> What are your thoughts on that and the >> What are your thoughts on that and the state of the church as it sits today? I state of the church as it sits today? I state of the church as it sits today? I I again I don't want to be I I'm I'm I'm I again I don't want to be I I'm I'm I'm I again I don't want to be I I'm I'm I'm I don't want to come across as thinking I don't want to come across as thinking I don't want to come across as thinking that I know it all because when I tell that I know it all because when I tell that I know it all because when I tell you I don't that is an understatement you I don't that is an understatement you I don't that is an understatement >> but you saw this for years women didn't >> but you saw this for years women didn't >> but you saw this for years women didn't feel feel feel >> okay so what is what I can say >> okay so what is what I can say >> okay so what is what I can say is that it I have had 40 years of deep is that it I have had 40 years of deep is that it I have had 40 years of deep and wide and wide and wide experience experience experience with women. So this is my whole adult with women. So this is my whole adult with women. So this is my whole adult life interacting with women, speaking life interacting with women, speaking life interacting with women, speaking with groups, all the communication that with groups, all the communication that with groups, all the communication that goes forth, all the this is so it's it goes forth, all the this is so it's it goes forth, all the this is so it's it is the world that I know the best um as is the world that I know the best um as is the world that I know the best um as the the church the church world of the the church the church world of the the church the church world of women. So I do feel like I can speak women. So I do feel like I can speak women. So I do feel like I can speak with some amount not of expertise with some amount not of expertise with some amount not of expertise experience. And so I want to distinguish experience. And so I want to distinguish experience. And so I want to distinguish between those two things. And so what I between those two things. And so what I between those two things. And so what I think I I knew it when I was fighting so think I I knew it when I was fighting so think I I knew it when I was fighting so hard for I thought you are giving them hard for I thought you are giving them hard for I thought you are giving them the message that you do not care about the message that you do not care about the message that you do not care about them and or that to the degree that you them and or that to the degree that you them and or that to the degree that you do they are expendable the moment you do they are expendable the moment you do they are expendable the moment you care about something more be it care about something more be it care about something more be it >> so you being the church is giving women >> so you being the church is giving women >> so you being the church is giving women the message that they're the message that they're the message that they're >> expect and I I mean I this 10 years ago

>> expect and I I mean I this 10 years ago >> expect and I I mean I this 10 years ago uh was so alarmed cuz I thought if you uh was so alarmed cuz I thought if you uh was so alarmed cuz I thought if you keep this up and you continue to convey keep this up and you continue to convey keep this up and you continue to convey this message, what you don't realize is this message, what you don't realize is this message, what you don't realize is that these women are going to go, "Okay, that these women are going to go, "Okay, that these women are going to go, "Okay, you don't care about me." You you think you don't care about me." You you think you don't care about me." You you think they're going to have your same they're going to have your same they're going to have your same priorities and think, "Well, there are priorities and think, "Well, there are priorities and think, "Well, there are certain decisions we have to make certain decisions we have to make certain decisions we have to make because I mean, this is the our nation. because I mean, this is the our nation. because I mean, this is the our nation. And this is our our Carrie the church. And this is our our Carrie the church. And this is our our Carrie the church. Now I'm I'm sitting down now. I'm Now I'm I'm sitting down now. I'm Now I'm I'm sitting down now. I'm starting to stand up so you can tell starting to stand up so you can tell starting to stand up so you can tell when I start feeling very sorry. when I start feeling very sorry. when I start feeling very sorry. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] I'm about to get up. I'm about to get up. I'm about to get up. >> I'm about to get up. >> I'm about to get up. >> I'm about to get up. >> The church to me has a greater >> The church to me has a greater >> The church to me has a greater responsibility responsibility responsibility to the family of God even than the home. to the family of God even than the home. to the family of God even than the home. I say that because the church is I say that because the church is I say that because the church is representing representing representing Christ, representing him. You can't you Christ, representing him. You can't you Christ, representing him. You can't you can't do that with homes. You can't go can't do that with homes. You can't go can't do that with homes. You can't go you have to represent Christ. I mean we you have to represent Christ. I mean we you have to represent Christ. I mean we teach that we hope that the church it is teach that we hope that the church it is teach that we hope that the church it is it is the responsibility of the church it is the responsibility of the church it is the responsibility of the church to uh to be the reflection of Christ and to uh to be the reflection of Christ and to uh to be the reflection of Christ and his ways and his words. And so, man, his ways and his words. And so, man, his ways and his words. And so, man, when we start departing from that, there when we start departing from that, there when we start departing from that, there there is there is a verse in there is there is a verse in there is there is a verse in Galatians 2. Do would you believe

Galatians 2. Do would you believe Galatians 2. Do would you believe because I I memorized Galatians when I because I I memorized Galatians when I because I I memorized Galatians when I was um writing a Bible study curriculum was um writing a Bible study curriculum was um writing a Bible study curriculum with my daughter over it um in in Gala with my daughter over it um in in Gala with my daughter over it um in in Gala over the book of Galatians. and and I over the book of Galatians. and and I over the book of Galatians. and and I was doing some of my memory work on it was doing some of my memory work on it was doing some of my memory work on it this morning in my walk and I said it this morning in my walk and I said it this morning in my walk and I said it just this morning so I know I feel like just this morning so I know I feel like just this morning so I know I feel like the Lord wanted it to be fresh on my the Lord wanted it to be fresh on my the Lord wanted it to be fresh on my mind. This is going to [laughter] mind. This is going to [laughter] mind. This is going to [laughter] connect. connect. connect. It says it's it's Paul talking of course It says it's it's Paul talking of course It says it's it's Paul talking of course and he's talking about his and he's talking about his and he's talking about his argument with Peter who is called Cphus argument with Peter who is called Cphus argument with Peter who is called Cphus in the book of Galatians in the book of Galatians in the book of Galatians >> and he talks about how he opposed him to >> and he talks about how he opposed him to >> and he talks about how he opposed him to his face and how he called him out front his face and how he called him out front his face and how he called him out front of in front of all of them and it says of in front of all of them and it says of in front of all of them and it says something I'm going to I'm going to say something I'm going to I'm going to say something I'm going to I'm going to say it out of the ESV because I'm I'm this it out of the ESV because I'm I'm this it out of the ESV because I'm I'm this is a CSV but in the ESV it says but when is a CSV but in the ESV it says but when is a CSV but in the ESV it says but when I saw that their conduct was not in step I saw that their conduct was not in step I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of The gospel I said to with the truth of The gospel I said to with the truth of The gospel I said to Cphus in front of them all D. It says Cphus in front of them all D. It says Cphus in front of them all D. It says earlier talks about that when that how earlier talks about that when that how earlier talks about that when that how he would not yield to them because he he would not yield to them because he he would not yield to them because he could see. This was someone earlier in could see. This was someone earlier in could see. This was someone earlier in that same chapter too because he wanted that same chapter too because he wanted that same chapter too because he wanted to preserve the truth of the gospel.

to preserve the truth of the gospel. to preserve the truth of the gospel. This is what I that is as well This is what I that is as well This is what I that is as well uh that scripture says it as well as uh that scripture says it as well as uh that scripture says it as well as anyone I know that what I was seeing I anyone I know that what I was seeing I anyone I know that what I was seeing I was going like this is not in step with was going like this is not in step with was going like this is not in step with the trust. It's not it's not it's not the trust. It's not it's not it's not the trust. It's not it's not it's not >> and uh you cannot >> and uh you cannot >> and uh you cannot >> take the dignity from women that Christ >> take the dignity from women that Christ >> take the dignity from women that Christ gave them. You can't you can't they're gave them. You can't you can't they're gave them. You can't you can't they're not expendable. We're not expendable for not expendable. We're not expendable for not expendable. We're not expendable for whether it is power, whether it is whether it is power, whether it is whether it is power, whether it is political gain. We again, I'm not saying political gain. We again, I'm not saying political gain. We again, I'm not saying that some of those decisions aren't that some of those decisions aren't that some of those decisions aren't important. important. important. They they are. I'm talking about they They they are. I'm talking about they They they are. I'm talking about they don't get to be made at the expense of don't get to be made at the expense of don't get to be made at the expense of the gospel or the ways of Christ. No, the gospel or the ways of Christ. No, the gospel or the ways of Christ. No, not by the church. Individuals outside not by the church. Individuals outside not by the church. Individuals outside the church, that's I mean on them. the the church, that's I mean on them. the the church, that's I mean on them. the church. No, we have we have a church. No, we have we have a church. No, we have we have a responsibility to walk in step with the responsibility to walk in step with the responsibility to walk in step with the gospel of Christ. And I absolutely think gospel of Christ. And I absolutely think gospel of Christ. And I absolutely think that the message that came across and I that the message that came across and I that the message that came across and I think this is the other message, Carrie.

think this is the other message, Carrie. think this is the other message, Carrie. Um, and that's I'm not going to have a a Um, and that's I'm not going to have a a Um, and that's I'm not going to have a a a place to even serve. and what I saw a place to even serve. and what I saw a place to even serve. and what I saw because there are people that think and because there are people that think and because there are people that think and I don't know how you feel about this and I don't know how you feel about this and I don't know how you feel about this and this is where there going to be people this is where there going to be people this is where there going to be people on both sides that are not going to on both sides that are not going to on both sides that are not going to agree with me about what I'm about to agree with me about what I'm about to agree with me about what I'm about to say but I'm talking about my own say but I'm talking about my own say but I'm talking about my own convictions. convictions. convictions. >> I I was never ever looking >> I I was never ever looking >> I I was never ever looking ever for one minute to take over a pull ever for one minute to take over a pull ever for one minute to take over a pull pit. Never. pit. Never. pit. Never. >> I would not when when I >> I would not when when I >> I would not when when I >> What are you looking for? I I I I saw >> What are you looking for? I I I I saw >> What are you looking for? I I I I saw just a few days ago somebody talk about just a few days ago somebody talk about just a few days ago somebody talk about um women women pastors of churches and um women women pastors of churches and um women women pastors of churches and and they had people's pictures up there. and they had people's pictures up there. and they had people's pictures up there. My picture was up there. I thought My picture was up there. I thought My picture was up there. I thought >> the only thing I've ever been paid to do >> the only thing I've ever been paid to do >> the only thing I've ever been paid to do by a church was teach aerobics back in by a church was teach aerobics back in by a church was teach aerobics back in the gym in my church gym when I was in the gym in my church gym when I was in the gym in my church gym when I was in my 20s. I've never been a pastor of a my 20s. I've never been a pastor of a my 20s. I've never been a pastor of a church, but I'm a big believer in women church, but I'm a big believer in women church, but I'm a big believer in women getting to [clears throat] exercise getting to [clears throat] exercise getting to [clears throat] exercise their gifts. And what I was seeing, I their gifts. And what I was seeing, I their gifts. And what I was seeing, I was seeing such a pull that they women was seeing such a pull that they women was seeing such a pull that they women were not even getting to teach Sunday were not even getting to teach Sunday were not even getting to teach Sunday school classes. Community groups had school classes. Community groups had school classes. Community groups had replaced Sunday school. Where were they replaced Sunday school. Where were they replaced Sunday school. Where were they where were they even going to teach?

where were they even going to teach? where were they even going to teach? They didn't want them up front in any They didn't want them up front in any They didn't want them up front in any way, in any shape or form. They didn't way, in any shape or form. They didn't way, in any shape or form. They didn't feel like any I'm talking about the the feel like any I'm talking about the the feel like any I'm talking about the the hyper hyper um [clears throat] hyper hyper um [clears throat] hyper hyper um [clears throat] fundamentalists. fundamentalists. fundamentalists. I it just was like and I think that's I it just was like and I think that's I it just was like and I think that's what's come across is there's no place what's come across is there's no place what's come across is there's no place for me. Um I'm not a my safety is not for me. Um I'm not a my safety is not for me. Um I'm not a my safety is not important but not only is my safety not important but not only is my safety not important but not only is my safety not important my my gifts are of no important my my gifts are of no important my my gifts are of no importance to you. And um yeah, I think importance to you. And um yeah, I think importance to you. And um yeah, I think that's that's that's uh I think when uh I think when uh I think when when you think about how women have when you think about how women have when you think about how women have served served served and then you begin to cut them out, it's going to have a cataclysmic it's going to have a cataclysmic ultimate effect. The fruit of that will ultimate effect. The fruit of that will ultimate effect. The fruit of that will not be good. What do you think What do you think churches that churches that churches that would pursue would pursue would pursue that line of thinking, that line of thinking, that line of thinking, what are they getting? What are they what are they getting? What are they what are they getting? What are they accomplishing? [clears throat] accomplishing? [clears throat] accomplishing? [clears throat] What are they in their mind?

What are they in their mind? What are they in their mind? What is their What is their What is their justification? because you've heard justification? because you've heard justification? because you've heard everything from misogyny to um no that's everything from misogyny to um no that's everything from misogyny to um no that's just the way the Bible says it right just the way the Bible says it right just the way the Bible says it right that kind of thing you you see a variety that kind of thing you you see a variety that kind of thing you you see a variety of things but of things but of things but >> there's a certain >> there's a certain >> there's a certain >> like what what are you really seeing >> like what what are you really seeing >> like what what are you really seeing what's really going on what's really going on what's really going on >> I think that there is >> I think that there is >> I think that there is >> anyone can do it anyone can do it anyone >> anyone can do it anyone can do it anyone >> anyone can do it anyone can do it anyone that's been in scripture even that's been in scripture even that's been in scripture even a little bit a little bit a little bit >> well I could I could take the scripture >> well I could I could take the scripture >> well I could I could take the scripture and make it say many different things. and make it say many different things. and make it say many different things. >> You can proof text it and you can proof >> You can proof text it and you can proof >> You can proof text it and you can proof text it to get what you want. And what I text it to get what you want. And what I text it to get what you want. And what I think many not all think many not all think many not all >> yes >> yes >> yes >> by any stretch of the imagination I'm >> by any stretch of the imagination I'm >> by any stretch of the imagination I'm saying that this message that got across saying that this message that got across saying that this message that got across uh about it didn't you know we had to uh about it didn't you know we had to uh about it didn't you know we had to protect the pullpit more than we needed protect the pullpit more than we needed protect the pullpit more than we needed to protect the people to protect the people to protect the people that that mindset I think that it's that that mindset I think that it's that that mindset I think that it's proof texting using scripture to protect proof texting using scripture to protect proof texting using scripture to protect power and to make sure all the power power and to make sure all the power power and to make sure all the power sits right here. And the reason why I sits right here. And the reason why I sits right here. And the reason why I say that is because Carrie, if what say that is because Carrie, if what say that is because Carrie, if what here's what I got asked this question in here's what I got asked this question in here's what I got asked this question in the Q&A just last week. What would you the Q&A just last week. What would you the Q&A just last week. What would you tell a woman who's trying to figure this tell a woman who's trying to figure this tell a woman who's trying to figure this out, is trying to figure out, you know, out, is trying to figure out, you know, out, is trying to figure out, you know, how how the New Testament feels about how how the New Testament feels about how how the New Testament feels about women? Uh, I said, "Well, first thing I

women? Uh, I said, "Well, first thing I women? Uh, I said, "Well, first thing I would do, first thing I would do is I would do, first thing I would do is I would do, first thing I would do is I would send them to Luke's gospel and would send them to Luke's gospel and would send them to Luke's gospel and then go on with his then go on with his then go on with his um his writing in the book of Acts, take um his writing in the book of Acts, take um his writing in the book of Acts, take a marker and mark every single time it a marker and mark every single time it a marker and mark every single time it says either women, woman or speaks of a says either women, woman or speaks of a says either women, woman or speaks of a of a woman or a girl." And it's of a woman or a girl." And it's of a woman or a girl." And it's astounding. It is astounding the place astounding. It is astounding the place astounding. It is astounding the place that they had the activity um am among that they had the activity um am among that they had the activity um am among the um gospel accounts the god the um gospel accounts the god the um gospel accounts the god seeming to very much make a point seeming to very much make a point seeming to very much make a point through Christ of including and not only through Christ of including and not only through Christ of including and not only including but at times going I'm going including but at times going I'm going including but at times going I'm going to turn this upside down with the women to turn this upside down with the women to turn this upside down with the women are going to be the one to announce are going to be the one to announce are going to be the one to announce that I have risen that that tomb is that I have risen that that tomb is that I have risen that that tomb is empty and then you go through acts and empty and then you go through acts and empty and then you go through acts and see Lydia, you see the church gathering see Lydia, you see the church gathering see Lydia, you see the church gathering at you see Nympha, you see the church at you see Nympha, you see the church at you see Nympha, you see the church gathering at John Mark's mother's home. gathering at John Mark's mother's home. gathering at John Mark's mother's home. All all of the things that all the times All all of the things that all the times All all of the things that all the times that women are active in the New that women are active in the New that women are active in the New Testament church that that what kills me. I I said this I was able what kills me. I I said this I was able to to articulate this years ago before to to articulate this years ago before to to articulate this years ago before any of this ever happened. It's like, any of this ever happened. It's like, any of this ever happened. It's like, >> I'm not trying to take away or erase >> I'm not trying to take away or erase >> I'm not trying to take away or erase First Timothy 2. I'm I'm not saying it First Timothy 2. I'm I'm not saying it First Timothy 2. I'm I'm not saying it doesn't say that. I'm saying that's not doesn't say that. I'm saying that's not doesn't say that. I'm saying that's not all it says. And when it is preached as

all it says. And when it is preached as all it says. And when it is preached as if that is all it says, if we have no, if that is all it says, if we have no, if that is all it says, if we have no, we're not even going to mention Acts two we're not even going to mention Acts two we're not even going to mention Acts two that he pours out his spirit on his sons that he pours out his spirit on his sons that he pours out his spirit on his sons and his daughters and that they will and his daughters and that they will and his daughters and that they will prophesy what prophesy what prophesy what when we just take certain scriptures and when we just take certain scriptures and when we just take certain scriptures and we're going to use that to be the rule we're going to use that to be the rule we're going to use that to be the rule over the church when we're going like, over the church when we're going like, over the church when we're going like, "Okay, but didn't we have to do the work "Okay, but didn't we have to do the work "Okay, but didn't we have to do the work of studying it all together. Did we were of studying it all together. Did we were of studying it all together. Did we were we not called to you? When I when we not called to you? When I when we not called to you? When I when someone throws at me, you're disobedient someone throws at me, you're disobedient someone throws at me, you're disobedient to the scriptures, I'm like, okay, which to the scriptures, I'm like, okay, which to the scriptures, I'm like, okay, which scripture are you talking about? Because scripture are you talking about? Because scripture are you talking about? Because when you speak to me with total when you speak to me with total when you speak to me with total disrespect, well in that statement, disrespect, well in that statement, disrespect, well in that statement, that's not what I'm talking about, but that's not what I'm talking about, but that's not what I'm talking about, but when someone's really, I mean, I'm when someone's really, I mean, I'm when someone's really, I mean, I'm talking like hateful and brutal with talking like hateful and brutal with talking like hateful and brutal with their speech and then they're going to their speech and then they're going to their speech and then they're going to throw at me or someone else.

throw at me or someone else. throw at me or someone else. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That they're, you know, that they're >> That they're, you know, that they're >> That they're, you know, that they're disobedient scripture. I'm going like, disobedient scripture. I'm going like, disobedient scripture. I'm going like, dude, your heart's so disconnected from dude, your heart's so disconnected from dude, your heart's so disconnected from the scriptures. You are a living corpse. the scriptures. You are a living corpse. the scriptures. You are a living corpse. >> So, you asked me a question that I >> So, you asked me a question that I >> So, you asked me a question that I didn't answer. didn't answer. didn't answer. >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, >> I should answer it. >> I should answer it. >> I should answer it. >> We have listeners here who have >> We have listeners here who have >> We have listeners here who have differing views, and I understand, as differing views, and I understand, as differing views, and I understand, as you do, Beth, that people have different you do, Beth, that people have different you do, Beth, that people have different views on egalitarianism versus views on egalitarianism versus views on egalitarianism versus complimentarianism, etc., etc. And it's complimentarianism, etc., etc. And it's complimentarianism, etc., etc. And it's a bit of a theme right now on the a bit of a theme right now on the a bit of a theme right now on the podcast. We're having podcast. We're having podcast. We're having >> different interviews about it in light >> different interviews about it in light >> different interviews about it in light of the data that women are leaving the of the data that women are leaving the of the data that women are leaving the church. But what I think is inexcusable, church. But what I think is inexcusable, church. But what I think is inexcusable, I totally understand different views on I totally understand different views on I totally understand different views on key issues and I know you do and I know key issues and I know you do and I know key issues and I know you do and I know Katie Cole does and other women leaders Katie Cole does and other women leaders Katie Cole does and other women leaders do and I've had most of the generational do and I've had most of the generational do and I've had most of the generational leaders of your generation, other leaders of your generation, other leaders of your generation, other generations, my gen, you know, all on generations, my gen, you know, all on generations, my gen, you know, all on this podcast and they're all very this podcast and they're all very this podcast and they're all very differential. They're not there to say differential. They're not there to say differential. They're not there to say I've got the one thing that you need. I've got the one thing that you need. I've got the one thing that you need. You know, that is not the spirit. But You know, that is not the spirit. But You know, that is not the spirit. But what I don't what I don't what I don't think has any room is being demeaning or think has any room is being demeaning or think has any room is being demeaning or degrading degrading degrading >> it doesn't >> it doesn't >> it doesn't >> to women or or to disregard or to be >> to women or or to disregard or to be >> to women or or to disregard or to be spiteful. Now I'm learning that in the spiteful. Now I'm learning that in the spiteful. Now I'm learning that in the context of a 35-y year marriage where I context of a 35-y year marriage where I context of a 35-y year marriage where I have been dismissive sometimes and I have been dismissive sometimes and I have been dismissive sometimes and I have been and you know what I'm learning have been and you know what I'm learning have been and you know what I'm learning as I get. And you talk about your as I get. And you talk about your as I get. And you talk about your marriage to Keith, right? Like marriage to Keith, right? Like marriage to Keith, right? Like >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Yes. >> What am I learning as a husband? I am >> What am I learning as a husband? I am >> What am I learning as a husband? I am learning to treat my wife with honor and learning to treat my wife with honor and learning to treat my wife with honor and respect and kindness and grace in a way respect and kindness and grace in a way respect and kindness and grace in a way that as a man doesn't come always that as a man doesn't come always that as a man doesn't come always naturally to me. naturally to me. naturally to me. >> You want to hear something >> You want to hear something >> You want to hear something >> I do >> I do >> I do >> intriguing. Carrie >> intriguing. Carrie >> intriguing. Carrie >> my husband was dealing with we were you >> my husband was dealing with we were you >> my husband was dealing with we were you know in in marriage it's not just one know in in marriage it's not just one know in in marriage it's not just one person it's it's both of you. He had a person it's it's both of you. He had a person it's it's both of you. He had a health crisis health crisis health crisis >> that >> that >> that caused him to have caused him to have caused him to have a couple of years a couple of years a couple of years that are almost that are almost that are almost a blur to him. almost a blur a blur to him. almost a blur a blur to him. almost a blur and it was I've tried to explain it in and it was I've tried to explain it in and it was I've tried to explain it in computer terms every every now and then computer terms every every now and then computer terms every every now and then so that somebody could understand it is so that somebody could understand it is so that somebody could understand it is like his uh not just the software but like his uh not just the software but like his uh not just the software but the literal hard drive just failed and the literal hard drive just failed and the literal hard drive just failed and then had to be jumparted.

then had to be jumparted. then had to be jumparted. Um, so there are years in there and it Um, so there are years in there and it Um, so there are years in there and it just so happens that they were the years just so happens that they were the years just so happens that they were the years that I was going through the aftermath that I was going through the aftermath that I was going through the aftermath of 16 of 2016 is what I'm talking about of 16 of 2016 is what I'm talking about of 16 of 2016 is what I'm talking about and then the stuff with the SBC. and then the stuff with the SBC. and then the stuff with the SBC. >> So he was, of course, I was talking >> So he was, of course, I was talking >> So he was, of course, I was talking about it. The girls and I were talking about it. The girls and I were talking about it. The girls and I were talking about it. I I was I was in the same about it. I I was I was in the same about it. I I was I was in the same house with him, but he was unable to house with him, but he was unable to house with him, but he was unable to really process it what was happening. really process it what was happening. really process it what was happening. Well, so time goes by, so much healing Well, so time goes by, so much healing Well, so time goes by, so much healing takes place. He begins to really then takes place. He begins to really then takes place. He begins to really then he's himself again. He starts then he's himself again. He starts then he's himself again. He starts then looking back at all of it going like, looking back at all of it going like, looking back at all of it going like, "Dad blessed it." And so I say that "Dad blessed it." And so I say that "Dad blessed it." And so I say that because it would be he'd call the girls, because it would be he'd call the girls, because it would be he'd call the girls, our daughters, and go, "You're not going our daughters, and go, "You're not going our daughters, and go, "You're not going to believe what so- and so said about to believe what so- and so said about to believe what so- and so said about your mother." And they go, "Dad, would your mother." And they go, "Dad, would your mother." And they go, "Dad, would you look on the date of that?" But, you you look on the date of that?" But, you you look on the date of that?" But, you know, it's kind we would sort of laugh know, it's kind we would sort of laugh know, it's kind we would sort of laugh about it because it was like, "You're about it because it was like, "You're about it because it was like, "You're you're a little bit late. You're a you're a little bit late. You're a you're a little bit late. You're a little bit late reacting to this. This little bit late reacting to this. This little bit late reacting to this. This is a whole lot better now." But uh it it is a whole lot better now." But uh it it is a whole lot better now." But uh it it was it was an interesting thing because was it was an interesting thing because was it was an interesting thing because Keith will tell you Carrie that watching the way women were treated in particular the way women were treated in particular for him cuz he's not a big social media for him cuz he's not a big social media for him cuz he's not a big social media person his wife. So in our situation it person his wife. So in our situation it person his wife. So in our situation it was that he was watching how people had was that he was watching how people had was that he was watching how people had treated his wife.

treated his wife. treated his wife. >> It ch changed him. It was like I I I >> It ch changed him. It was like I I I >> It ch changed him. It was like I I I think when you see it think when you see it think when you see it with something that we have, all of us with something that we have, all of us with something that we have, all of us do, all of us have these tendencies, do, all of us have these tendencies, do, all of us have these tendencies, these ways that we've been sort of these ways that we've been sort of these ways that we've been sort of trained up by culture to to act that trained up by culture to to act that trained up by culture to to act that we're they're so much a part of us, we we're they're so much a part of us, we we're they're so much a part of us, we don't even realize that they're um you don't even realize that they're um you don't even realize that they're um you know, against against the way of Christ. know, against against the way of Christ. know, against against the way of Christ. And then we see it like burgeoning out And then we see it like burgeoning out And then we see it like burgeoning out in a you know 9 ft Goliath and suddenly in a you know 9 ft Goliath and suddenly in a you know 9 ft Goliath and suddenly we become more hopefully hopefully if we become more hopefully hopefully if we become more hopefully hopefully if we've got any self-awareness at all we we've got any self-awareness at all we we've got any self-awareness at all we become aware of the seed in us and and become aware of the seed in us and and become aware of the seed in us and and that happened with him where he was uh that happened with him where he was uh that happened with him where he was uh alarmed by it and began to think alarmed by it and began to think alarmed by it and began to think >> I got to pull all this stuff >> I got to pull all this stuff >> I got to pull all this stuff >> I got to yes >> I got to yes >> I got to yes >> everything by the root I'm in a very >> everything by the root I'm in a very >> everything by the root I'm in a very similar place and you know culturees similar place and you know culturees similar place and you know culturees moved on I've had a long marriage. moved on I've had a long marriage. moved on I've had a long marriage. You've had a long marriage. Attitudes You've had a long marriage. Attitudes You've had a long marriage. Attitudes are different than they were, you know, are different than they were, you know, are different than they were, you know, at the beginning of the the marriage, at the beginning of the the marriage, at the beginning of the the marriage, but I just realized I've I've I've got but I just realized I've I've I've got but I just realized I've I've I've got to change. So, I know we're almost at to change. So, I know we're almost at to change. So, I know we're almost at time. I got to ask you one more time. I got to ask you one more time. I got to ask you one more question. I didn't get to any of my question. I didn't get to any of my question. I didn't get to any of my questions, Beth. Congratulations. Great questions, Beth. Congratulations. Great questions, Beth. Congratulations. Great job. Great interview. Why Why aren't you job. Great interview. Why Why aren't you job. Great interview. Why Why aren't you just so cynical?

just so cynical? just so cynical? >> Why didn't you just quit? >> Why didn't you just quit? >> Why didn't you just quit? >> Oh my goodness, >> Oh my goodness, >> Oh my goodness, Carrie. I I have said this before and I Carrie. I I have said this before and I Carrie. I I have said this before and I I know it must be hard to believe. It I know it must be hard to believe. It I know it must be hard to believe. It just never flat out never occurred to just never flat out never occurred to just never flat out never occurred to me. And I and there's a [clears throat] me. And I and there's a [clears throat] me. And I and there's a [clears throat] reason for that. It's not just there's reason for that. It's not just there's reason for that. It's not just there's uh I like to tease about being a little uh I like to tease about being a little uh I like to tease about being a little bit uh a little bit blonde at times. Um bit uh a little bit blonde at times. Um bit uh a little bit blonde at times. Um but this is not because of that. It's but this is not because of that. It's but this is not because of that. It's because >> I had um in >> I had um in two long and too deep with Jesus by the two long and too deep with Jesus by the two long and too deep with Jesus by the time so much of this happened that time so much of this happened that time so much of this happened that I'm just not going anywhere. And I'm I'm I'm just not going anywhere. And I'm I'm I'm just not going anywhere. And I'm I'm Please forgive me if this sounds Please forgive me if this sounds Please forgive me if this sounds hyperspiritual cuz I don't want it to hyperspiritual cuz I don't want it to hyperspiritual cuz I don't want it to be. And and I I wish there was a be. And and I I wish there was a be. And and I I wish there was a different way to say it so that it different way to say it so that it different way to say it so that it didn't sound like that. But um I mean didn't sound like that. But um I mean didn't sound like that. But um I mean he's my whole life. Um um by the time I he's my whole life. Um um by the time I he's my whole life. Um um by the time I was tested on so much of it and that I was tested on so much of it and that I was tested on so much of it and that I would have been most tempted now I've would have been most tempted now I've would have been most tempted now I've been tempted many times to be less been tempted many times to be less been tempted many times to be less public to be out of out of the public public to be out of out of the public public to be out of out of the public eye so much.

eye so much. eye so much. >> But as far as ministry I I knew >> But as far as ministry I I knew >> But as far as ministry I I knew maybe because I just never had it easy maybe because I just never had it easy maybe because I just never had it easy from the beginning. Maybe because I was from the beginning. Maybe because I was from the beginning. Maybe because I was always running against the wind. um just always running against the wind. um just always running against the wind. um just in my home and stuff and had to take in my home and stuff and had to take in my home and stuff and had to take responsibility for my own spiritual life responsibility for my own spiritual life responsibility for my own spiritual life and and my own faith. But um and and my own faith. But um and and my own faith. But um [clears throat] I I don't have him [clears throat] I I don't have him [clears throat] I I don't have him confused with people. I I really don't. confused with people. I I really don't. confused with people. I I really don't. And there are a lot of ways that I And there are a lot of ways that I And there are a lot of ways that I misthink and misread, misthink and misread, misthink and misread, but that that wasn't the case here. I but that that wasn't the case here. I but that that wasn't the case here. I just He's Jesus is Jesus just He's Jesus is Jesus just He's Jesus is Jesus and we're us. And even though it's very and we're us. And even though it's very and we're us. And even though it's very painful, they did not call me to painful, they did not call me to painful, they did not call me to ministry. The Lord did. And he has never ministry. The Lord did. And he has never ministry. The Lord did. And he has never done me wrong. He has never undermined done me wrong. He has never undermined done me wrong. He has never undermined my dignity in any way. He has never my dignity in any way. He has never my dignity in any way. He has never said, "You're out." He has never told me said, "You're out." He has never told me said, "You're out." He has never told me um to uh quit to that I did not have um to uh quit to that I did not have um to uh quit to that I did not have value. And so, you know, until he says, value. And so, you know, until he says, value. And so, you know, until he says, "You're out."

"You're out." "You're out." I'm in because I'm I'm in with him. I'm I'm in because I'm I'm in with him. I'm I'm in because I'm I'm in with him. I'm in with him. And >> it's my calling. So, and so that Okay. >> it's my calling. So, and so that Okay. Oh, you got to give me another minute Oh, you got to give me another minute Oh, you got to give me another minute here because that doesn't ask the here because that doesn't ask the here because that doesn't ask the question why I'm not cynical. That that question why I'm not cynical. That that question why I'm not cynical. That that answers the question why I'm still in answers the question why I'm still in answers the question why I'm still in the cynicism has been protected because the cynicism has been protected because the cynicism has been protected because I I I again this is going to sound again this is going to sound again this is going to sound right. I still enjoy him, you know. I right. I still enjoy him, you know. I right. I still enjoy him, you know. I still have a lot of joy in him. And still have a lot of joy in him. And still have a lot of joy in him. And somehow, you know, I I told Russell somehow, you know, I I told Russell somehow, you know, I I told Russell Moore one time, I said, you know, I'm Moore one time, I said, you know, I'm Moore one time, I said, you know, I'm like Tigger. I just I think it's what like Tigger. I just I think it's what like Tigger. I just I think it's what what some of my detractors hate about me what some of my detractors hate about me what some of my detractors hate about me is that I just keep coming back. It's is that I just keep coming back. It's is that I just keep coming back. It's like [laughter] cuz I do get down, but like [laughter] cuz I do get down, but like [laughter] cuz I do get down, but figure I I just bounce I just bounce figure I I just bounce I just bounce figure I I just bounce I just bounce back after I'm I'm pretty resilient. Um back after I'm I'm pretty resilient. Um back after I'm I'm pretty resilient. Um and and I do think that is because of and and I do think that is because of and and I do think that is because of history. I think I had to be I think I history. I think I had to be I think I history. I think I had to be I think I had to learn had to learn had to learn >> as a child you had to learn resilience >> as a child you had to learn resilience >> as a child you had to learn resilience >> how to how to get back up or where would >> how to how to get back up or where would >> how to how to get back up or where would I be Carrie. So um but I have even this I be Carrie. So um but I have even this I be Carrie. So um but I have even this morning in my in my prayer time in my morning in my in my prayer time in my morning in my in my prayer time in my Bible reading I just I still love him Bible reading I just I still love him Bible reading I just I still love him and I still enjoy and I still enjoy and I still enjoy I just enjoy the scriptures. I enjoy

I just enjoy the scriptures. I enjoy I just enjoy the scriptures. I enjoy fellowship in the faith. I've enjoyed fellowship in the faith. I've enjoyed fellowship in the faith. I've enjoyed the conversation we've just gotten to the conversation we've just gotten to the conversation we've just gotten to have. I love to talk about the things of have. I love to talk about the things of have. I love to talk about the things of Jesus. I'm just still in it and and he's Jesus. I'm just still in it and and he's Jesus. I'm just still in it and and he's just sustained me. I I've said to him so just sustained me. I I've said to him so just sustained me. I I've said to him so many times, you you've kept me. Um I've many times, you you've kept me. Um I've many times, you you've kept me. Um I've told other leaders, servant leaders that told other leaders, servant leaders that told other leaders, servant leaders that were struggling, were struggling, were struggling, um [clears throat] the Lord is our um [clears throat] the Lord is our um [clears throat] the Lord is our keeper as Psalm 121 says, and he's not keeper as Psalm 121 says, and he's not keeper as Psalm 121 says, and he's not going to let us go. And no matter who going to let us go. And no matter who going to let us go. And no matter who throws us out or has no more use for us throws us out or has no more use for us throws us out or has no more use for us or room for us, he's not going to let us or room for us, he's not going to let us or room for us, he's not going to let us go. And I'm not going to let him go go. And I'm not going to let him go go. And I'm not going to let him go either. either. either. >> Got to tell you, you're a great writer, >> Got to tell you, you're a great writer, >> Got to tell you, you're a great writer, too. That is a fascinating read. The too. That is a fascinating read. The too. That is a fascinating read. The book is called All My Knotted Up Life. book is called All My Knotted Up Life. book is called All My Knotted Up Life. Yeah. It almost reads like I'm like, Yeah. It almost reads like I'm like, Yeah. It almost reads like I'm like, "This actually happened." But it reads "This actually happened." But it reads "This actually happened." But it reads like great fiction, even though it's like great fiction, even though it's like great fiction, even though it's non-fiction. You know, sometimes it's non-fiction. You know, sometimes it's non-fiction. You know, sometimes it's very pedantic. Very very pedantic. Very very pedantic. Very >> Thank you for saying that. nonfictiony >> Thank you for saying that. nonfictiony >> Thank you for saying that. nonfictiony biographies.

biographies. biographies. >> I'm so glad. >> I'm so glad. >> I'm so glad. >> Really beautifully written. So, it's >> Really beautifully written. So, it's >> Really beautifully written. So, it's called All My Knotted Up Life. For called All My Knotted Up Life. For called All My Knotted Up Life. For leaders who want to track with you leaders who want to track with you leaders who want to track with you online, you can be caught in fights on online, you can be caught in fights on online, you can be caught in fights on X, I'm sure. Where where else can people X, I'm sure. Where where else can people X, I'm sure. Where where else can people find you these days online? find you these days online? find you these days online? >> And and maybe they'll be glad to know >> And and maybe they'll be glad to know >> And and maybe they'll be glad to know that most of the fights they can catch that most of the fights they can catch that most of the fights they can catch me in now are over basketball me in now are over basketball me in now are over basketball >> because I'm a rabbid fan. And listen, >> because I'm a rabbid fan. And listen, >> because I'm a rabbid fan. And listen, some of my bros, they don't expect me to some of my bros, they don't expect me to some of my bros, they don't expect me to be able to talk it with them. and it's be able to talk it with them. and it's be able to talk it with them. and it's like, "Oh, I know what I'm talking like, "Oh, I know what I'm talking like, "Oh, I know what I'm talking about. We'll trash talk with them." But about. We'll trash talk with them." But about. We'll trash talk with them." But I want my my name online is the same in I want my my name online is the same in I want my my name online is the same in um both Instagram and um Twitter X and um both Instagram and um Twitter X and um both Instagram and um Twitter X and that's Beth Moore LPM. Uh Living Proof that's Beth Moore LPM. Uh Living Proof that's Beth Moore LPM. Uh Living Proof Ministries is the name of the ministry. Ministries is the name of the ministry. Ministries is the name of the ministry. So, we go by LPM. And so, that's how you So, we go by LPM. And so, that's how you So, we go by LPM. And so, that's how you know that's how you know it's me. And know that's how you know it's me. And know that's how you know it's me. And Carrie, I've enjoyed this so much. I Carrie, I've enjoyed this so much. I Carrie, I've enjoyed this so much. I hope I have not overtalked. hope I have not overtalked. hope I have not overtalked. >> No, you didn't overt talk at all. This >> No, you didn't overt talk at all. This >> No, you didn't overt talk at all. This was great. I'd just love for leaders to was great. I'd just love for leaders to was great. I'd just love for leaders to tell their own story in their words. So, tell their own story in their words. So, tell their own story in their words. So, thanks for helping our audience think thanks for helping our audience think thanks for helping our audience think through some very difficult issues. I'm through some very difficult issues. I'm through some very difficult issues. I'm sure your story is resonating with a lot sure your story is resonating with a lot sure your story is resonating with a lot of women and men, and you've given me of women and men, and you've given me of women and men, and you've given me pause to think. So, thank you.

pause to think. So, thank you. pause to think. So, thank you. >> I'm so thankful for you, Carrie. Thank >> I'm so thankful for you, Carrie. Thank >> I'm so thankful for you, Carrie. Thank you. And keep doing the work you're you. And keep doing the work you're you. And keep doing the work you're doing. It's so important to serve doing. It's so important to serve doing. It's so important to serve servants. servants. servants. >> Well, I hope you found that conversation >> Well, I hope you found that conversation >> Well, I hope you found that conversation enlightening. I certainly enjoyed it. If enlightening. I certainly enjoyed it. If enlightening. I certainly enjoyed it. If you want show notes to talk about some you want show notes to talk about some you want show notes to talk about some of the things that we talked about on of the things that we talked about on of the things that we talked about on the show, you can find them in the Art the show, you can find them in the Art the show, you can find them in the Art of Leadership Academy absolutely free. of Leadership Academy absolutely free. of Leadership Academy absolutely free. Just set up an account, join well over Just set up an account, join well over Just set up an account, join well over 15,000 leaders and uh well, you can do 15,000 leaders and uh well, you can do 15,000 leaders and uh well, you can do that by going to the art of that by going to the art of that by going to the art of leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. You can find everything there. Coming up You can find everything there. Coming up You can find everything there. Coming up next, I am going to talk well solo about next, I am going to talk well solo about next, I am going to talk well solo about some things that I'm thinking about. some things that I'm thinking about. some things that I'm thinking about. What about revival on the church? What What about revival on the church? What What about revival on the church? What happens to our motivation? You know that happens to our motivation? You know that happens to our motivation? You know that post that makes the room look a little post that makes the room look a little post that makes the room look a little bit fuller than maybe you think? Well, bit fuller than maybe you think? Well, bit fuller than maybe you think? Well, we're going to talk about motivations. we're going to talk about motivations. we're going to talk about motivations. We're going to talk about doing an We're going to talk about doing an We're going to talk about doing an internal heart check as a leader. That's internal heart check as a leader. That's internal heart check as a leader. That's coming up. Also coming up on the coming up. Also coming up on the coming up. Also coming up on the podcast, Carl Lent, Katie Cole, JJ and podcast, Carl Lent, Katie Cole, JJ and podcast, Carl Lent, Katie Cole, JJ and Kate Tomlin, Chelsea Smith, Jenny Allen, Kate Tomlin, Chelsea Smith, Jenny Allen, Kate Tomlin, Chelsea Smith, Jenny Allen, and a whole lot more. And if you don't and a whole lot more. And if you don't and a whole lot more. And if you don't want to miss any of that, give us a want to miss any of that, give us a want to miss any of that, give us a follow, a subscribe, maybe drop a follow, a subscribe, maybe drop a follow, a subscribe, maybe drop a comment, and uh you can follow us comment, and uh you can follow us comment, and uh you can follow us wherever you want. Also, uh, you know, wherever you want. Also, uh, you know, wherever you want. Also, uh, you know, I've talked about this a few times and I I've talked about this a few times and I I've talked about this a few times and I will give it a rest at some point, but will give it a rest at some point, but will give it a rest at some point, but one of the debates is, do you watch one of the debates is, do you watch one of the debates is, do you watch podcasts? Do you listen to them?

podcasts? Do you listen to them? podcasts? Do you listen to them? Traditionally, I'm a listener cuz I like Traditionally, I'm a listener cuz I like Traditionally, I'm a listener cuz I like to take it on the go. But Spotify, if to take it on the go. But Spotify, if to take it on the go. But Spotify, if you're following us on Spotify now, you you're following us on Spotify now, you you're following us on Spotify now, you can seamlessly switch between audio and can seamlessly switch between audio and can seamlessly switch between audio and video. So, when you're driving, you video. So, when you're driving, you video. So, when you're driving, you know, you just listen and then you can know, you just listen and then you can know, you just listen and then you can pop over if you're sitting down one pop over if you're sitting down one pop over if you're sitting down one night and finish it watching on video. night and finish it watching on video. night and finish it watching on video. It's a simple tap. That's it. Super It's a simple tap. That's it. Super It's a simple tap. That's it. Super easy. Thanks so much for listening. If easy. Thanks so much for listening. If easy. Thanks so much for listening. If this conversation was helpful, leave a this conversation was helpful, leave a this conversation was helpful, leave a review or comment wherever you're review or comment wherever you're review or comment wherever you're watching. And I hope our time together watching. And I hope our time together watching. And I hope our time together today helped you break a barrier that today helped you break a barrier that today helped you break a barrier that you're facing.