Is your sense of calling leading you to burnout?

Boundary shaming is when you are being Boundary shaming is when you are being asked to do more than what you signed up asked to do more than what you signed up asked to do more than what you signed up for. So be let's be very clear. You're for. So be let's be very clear. You're for. So be let's be very clear. You're doing your job. You're doing all the doing your job. You're doing all the doing your job. You're doing all the tasks that you've been asked to do. tasks that you've been asked to do. tasks that you've been asked to do. Nothing is being um you know ignored or Nothing is being um you know ignored or Nothing is being um you know ignored or or forgotten. You're doing your job. But or forgotten. You're doing your job. But or forgotten. You're doing your job. But when you're asked to do when you're asked to do when you're asked to do more with the understanding that if you more with the understanding that if you more with the understanding that if you don't, you're not a team player. If you don't, you're not a team player. If you don't, you're not a team player. If you don't um you might not be the person don't um you might not be the person don't um you might not be the person people call on next time. It's it's when people call on next time. It's it's when people call on next time. It's it's when someone else puts their own capacity for someone else puts their own capacity for someone else puts their own capacity for work on you as if it should be what it work on you as if it should be what it work on you as if it should be what it is for all people. Isn't that every is for all people. Isn't that every is for all people. Isn't that every church and every nonprofit? Ariana, well church and every nonprofit? Ariana, well church and every nonprofit? Ariana, well maybe. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff maybe. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff maybe. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, you know what? glad you joined us. Hey, you know what? glad you joined us. Hey, you know what? You are not your work. We are going to You are not your work. We are going to You are not your work. We are going to talk about toxic calling. Do you know talk about toxic calling. Do you know talk about toxic calling. Do you know that even if you're called by God, it that even if you're called by God, it that even if you're called by God, it can be toxic? Well, and we're going to can be toxic? Well, and we're going to can be toxic? Well, and we're going to talk about all that with Dr. Ariana talk about all that with Dr. Ariana talk about all that with Dr. Ariana Malloy. I've also got a book giveaway. Malloy. I've also got a book giveaway. Malloy. I've also got a book giveaway. This week, I'm giving away Ariana's This week, I'm giving away Ariana's This week, I'm giving away Ariana's book, Healthy Calling: From Toxic book, Healthy Calling: From Toxic book, Healthy Calling: From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work. Five lucky Burnout to Sustainable Work. Five lucky Burnout to Sustainable Work. Five lucky winners are going to get a copy. To winners are going to get a copy. To winners are going to get a copy. To enter, all you have to do is comment I enter, all you have to do is comment I enter, all you have to do is comment I have a healthy calling down below. So, have a healthy calling down below. So, have a healthy calling down below. So, just do that and like, subscribe, leave just do that and like, subscribe, leave just do that and like, subscribe, leave a comment to join the conversation. Now, a comment to join the conversation. Now, a comment to join the conversation. Now, a word from today's partners and then a word from today's partners and then a word from today's partners and then we'll dive right into my conversation we'll dive right into my conversation we'll dive right into my conversation with Dr. Ariana Malloy. This episode is with Dr. Ariana Malloy. This episode is with Dr. Ariana Malloy. This episode is brought to you by Upward Sports. So, brought to you by Upward Sports. So, brought to you by Upward Sports. So, Upward Sports equips churches to share Upward Sports equips churches to share Upward Sports equips churches to share the gospel and make connections in their the gospel and make connections in their the gospel and make connections in their community. Upward gives you all the

community. Upward gives you all the community. Upward gives you all the training, all the resources, the training, all the resources, the training, all the resources, the ministry content, products, and ministry content, products, and ministry content, products, and specialized league management systems to specialized league management systems to specialized league management systems to help you run a sports ministry. It's so help you run a sports ministry. It's so help you run a sports ministry. It's so much bigger than sports, though, because much bigger than sports, though, because much bigger than sports, though, because here's really the heartbeat behind it. here's really the heartbeat behind it. here's really the heartbeat behind it. what they're into is reaching people. what they're into is reaching people. what they're into is reaching people. They want to help you reach people like They want to help you reach people like They want to help you reach people like never before. They will introduce you to never before. They will introduce you to never before. They will introduce you to people who don't go to church, who would people who don't go to church, who would people who don't go to church, who would never show up at church if it wasn't for never show up at church if it wasn't for never show up at church if it wasn't for the fact that you run a sports ministry. the fact that you run a sports ministry. the fact that you run a sports ministry. So, if you're interested in reaching So, if you're interested in reaching So, if you're interested in reaching people that are really hard to reach, people that are really hard to reach, people that are really hard to reach, here's what you do. Simply go to here's what you do. Simply go to here's what you do. Simply go to upward.org/carry. That's upward.org/carry. That's upward.org/carry. That's upward.org/carry. They would love to upward.org/carry. They would love to upward.org/carry. They would love to help you out. Hey, this episode is help you out. Hey, this episode is help you out. Hey, this episode is brought to you by The Art of Leadership brought to you by The Art of Leadership brought to you by The Art of Leadership Academy. So, if this podcast is part of Academy. So, if this podcast is part of Academy. So, if this podcast is part of your growth and rhythm in leadership, I your growth and rhythm in leadership, I your growth and rhythm in leadership, I think you're going to love what I'm think you're going to love what I'm think you're going to love what I'm going to share with you. Inside my art going to share with you. Inside my art going to share with you. Inside my art of leadership academy, we have just of leadership academy, we have just of leadership academy, we have just opened up a few brand new spaces for you opened up a few brand new spaces for you opened up a few brand new spaces for you to lead more effectively and grow your to lead more effectively and grow your to lead more effectively and grow your leadership. And the price, you're going leadership. And the price, you're going leadership. And the price, you're going to love it. It's absolutely free. So, to love it. It's absolutely free. So, to love it. It's absolutely free. So, what I would love for you to do is go what I would love for you to do is go what I would love for you to do is go and set up your free account today and set up your free account today and set up your free account today because you're going to be able to join because you're going to be able to join because you're going to be able to join a lifegiving online community. think a lifegiving online community. think a lifegiving online community. think social media, but only for pastors and social media, but only for pastors and social media, but only for pastors and church leaders who are looking to grow church leaders who are looking to grow church leaders who are looking to grow and support each other. You can cut the and support each other. You can cut the and support each other. You can cut the noise, the the trolls, the the junk you noise, the the trolls, the the junk you noise, the the trolls, the the junk you get everywhere else. Actually, it's just get everywhere else. Actually, it's just get everywhere else. Actually, it's just a community of church leaders who really a community of church leaders who really a community of church leaders who really care about the mission of the church. I care about the mission of the church. I care about the mission of the church. I would love for you to be involved. And would love for you to be involved. And would love for you to be involved. And the big part of this is you'll be able the big part of this is you'll be able the big part of this is you'll be able to connect with other podcast listeners to connect with other podcast listeners to connect with other podcast listeners about each episode of my podcast,

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calling? We're going to jump right in. calling? We're going to jump right in. Really where we want to start is when Really where we want to start is when Really where we want to start is when calling becomes more interesting or more calling becomes more interesting or more calling becomes more interesting or more of a focus to us than our caller, then of a focus to us than our caller, then of a focus to us than our caller, then we start to get off track. So when we we start to get off track. So when we we start to get off track. So when we begin to focus more on the calling, begin to focus more on the calling, begin to focus more on the calling, which is the the thing versus the which is the the thing versus the which is the the thing versus the caller, we get off track. Oh, that's caller, we get off track. Oh, that's caller, we get off track. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. Because, you know, I interesting. Okay. Because, you know, I interesting. Okay. Because, you know, I was somebody who just wanted to be a was somebody who just wanted to be a was somebody who just wanted to be a lawyer. That was my story from the time lawyer. That was my story from the time lawyer. That was my story from the time I was a kid. But it was between first I was a kid. But it was between first I was a kid. But it was between first and second year law that I had a calling and second year law that I had a calling and second year law that I had a calling experience. And I did not come from a experience. And I did not come from a experience. And I did not come from a charismatic background. I was raised charismatic background. I was raised charismatic background. I was raised Presbyterian. Sort of the opposite of, Presbyterian. Sort of the opposite of, Presbyterian. Sort of the opposite of, you know, if you need an antonyym for you know, if you need an antonyym for you know, if you need an antonyym for charismatic, it would be Presbyterian. charismatic, it would be Presbyterian. charismatic, it would be Presbyterian. But God, and I'm I'm very open to that But God, and I'm I'm very open to that But God, and I'm I'm very open to that stuff. But God really moved stuff. But God really moved stuff. But God really moved supernaturally and I think put a call in supernaturally and I think put a call in supernaturally and I think put a call in my life. It was shocking to me, my life. It was shocking to me, my life. It was shocking to me, surprising to me. And I would say there surprising to me. And I would say there surprising to me. And I would say there were points at which my calling became were points at which my calling became were points at which my calling became toxic. Hopefully not so much now. What toxic. Hopefully not so much now. What toxic. Hopefully not so much now. What are some signs that maybe your calling are some signs that maybe your calling are some signs that maybe your calling has gone into a not very healthy has gone into a not very healthy has gone into a not very healthy direction? First of all, I love those direction? First of all, I love those direction? First of all, I love those crystallizing moments where you can look crystallizing moments where you can look crystallizing moments where you can look back and say, "Oh my gosh, this was a back and say, "Oh my gosh, this was a back and say, "Oh my gosh, this was a moment where I felt that Holy Spirit moment where I felt that Holy Spirit moment where I felt that Holy Spirit presence that is undeniable." And those presence that is undeniable." And those presence that is undeniable." And those are very real moments. I also think when are very real moments. I also think when are very real moments. I also think when we're talking about calling though, we we're talking about calling though, we we're talking about calling though, we have to remember that by and large, it's have to remember that by and large, it's have to remember that by and large, it's it's like smaller whispers along the it's like smaller whispers along the it's like smaller whispers along the way. It's doors that we have the courage way. It's doors that we have the courage way. It's doors that we have the courage to walk through or knock on when they're

to walk through or knock on when they're to walk through or knock on when they're closed. And collectively, sometimes that closed. And collectively, sometimes that closed. And collectively, sometimes that helps us understand and discern our helps us understand and discern our helps us understand and discern our calling. You know, I definitely had calling. You know, I definitely had calling. You know, I definitely had those moments too, Carrie. I remember those moments too, Carrie. I remember those moments too, Carrie. I remember walking on the campus of Biola walking on the campus of Biola walking on the campus of Biola University. I had no intention of living University. I had no intention of living University. I had no intention of living in California. Not at all interested. in California. Not at all interested. in California. Not at all interested. I'm from Seattle where pine trees, you I'm from Seattle where pine trees, you I'm from Seattle where pine trees, you know, fill the scented air and I love know, fill the scented air and I love know, fill the scented air and I love it. Uh, but I I was taking the the it. Uh, but I I was taking the the it. Uh, but I I was taking the the interview and I was walking on campus interview and I was walking on campus interview and I was walking on campus and I remember exactly where I was and I remember exactly where I was and I remember exactly where I was standing. Mhm. And I had that like soft standing. Mhm. And I had that like soft standing. Mhm. And I had that like soft Holy Spirit feeling in my heart that was Holy Spirit feeling in my heart that was Holy Spirit feeling in my heart that was I can only describe it as like like a I can only describe it as like like a I can only describe it as like like a key going into a lock and unlocking with key going into a lock and unlocking with key going into a lock and unlocking with this sense of peace that just flowed this sense of peace that just flowed this sense of peace that just flowed over me. And I called my dad and I was over me. And I called my dad and I was over me. And I called my dad and I was like, I don't think I'm coming home. So, like, I don't think I'm coming home. So, like, I don't think I'm coming home. So, just to say like there are those just to say like there are those just to say like there are those crystallizing moments. Uh, but I think crystallizing moments. Uh, but I think crystallizing moments. Uh, but I think sometimes we get so uh curious about sometimes we get so uh curious about sometimes we get so uh curious about having those moments that we miss those having those moments that we miss those having those moments that we miss those other little parts along the way. Yeah. other little parts along the way. Yeah. other little parts along the way. Yeah. And most like a lot of the people And most like a lot of the people And most like a lot of the people listening to this show, the leaders listening to this show, the leaders listening to this show, the leaders listening would say they have a calling listening would say they have a calling listening would say they have a calling on their life, right? Whether that was a on their life, right? Whether that was a on their life, right? Whether that was a charismatic moment like me or a feeling charismatic moment like me or a feeling charismatic moment like me or a feeling like yours or just like, "Hey, I signed like yours or just like, "Hey, I signed like yours or just like, "Hey, I signed up for ministry. I think I have the up for ministry. I think I have the up for ministry. I think I have the gifting. I have a calling." But a lot of gifting. I have a calling." But a lot of gifting. I have a calling." But a lot of pastors become and church leaders become pastors become and church leaders become pastors become and church leaders become kind of obsessed with calling and they kind of obsessed with calling and they kind of obsessed with calling and they so when you look at how does when when a so when you look at how does when when a so when you look at how does when when a calling becomes toxic, what does that calling becomes toxic, what does that calling becomes toxic, what does that look like? How do So obviously you focus look like? How do So obviously you focus look like? How do So obviously you focus more on the calling than the caller. But more on the calling than the caller. But more on the calling than the caller. But if talk to church staff if they're if talk to church staff if they're if talk to church staff if they're working with a senior pastor whose

working with a senior pastor whose working with a senior pastor whose calling has become toxic, how would they calling has become toxic, how would they calling has become toxic, how would they know? Okay. So, so the good news is know? Okay. So, so the good news is know? Okay. So, so the good news is people who feel called are the most people who feel called are the most people who feel called are the most satisfied and motivated in the satisfied and motivated in the satisfied and motivated in the workplace. They're the people you want workplace. They're the people you want workplace. They're the people you want in the room, but the bad news is that in the room, but the bad news is that in the room, but the bad news is that that toxic side, they're actually the that toxic side, they're actually the that toxic side, they're actually the most prone to having that sense of most prone to having that sense of most prone to having that sense of burnout than any other people group. And burnout than any other people group. And burnout than any other people group. And so, so I think as we're talking about so, so I think as we're talking about so, so I think as we're talking about this, we have to kind of assume for most this, we have to kind of assume for most this, we have to kind of assume for most people who feel called, it's not really people who feel called, it's not really people who feel called, it's not really a question of if, it's a question of a question of if, it's a question of a question of if, it's a question of when. When we get to that toxic side. when. When we get to that toxic side. when. When we get to that toxic side. Now we can either be consumed by that Now we can either be consumed by that Now we can either be consumed by that sense of toxicity that that particular sense of toxicity that that particular sense of toxicity that that particular type of burnout with a calling that has type of burnout with a calling that has type of burnout with a calling that has its own texture or we can say oh this is its own texture or we can say oh this is its own texture or we can say oh this is not a good feeling. I need to do not a good feeling. I need to do not a good feeling. I need to do something different. So I would say the something different. So I would say the something different. So I would say the first thing to realize is if you're first thing to realize is if you're first thing to realize is if you're recognizing that sense of toxic calling, recognizing that sense of toxic calling, recognizing that sense of toxic calling, which is when work moves from an which is when work moves from an which is when work moves from an expression of who you are to the expression of who you are to the expression of who you are to the definition of who you are. When when definition of who you are. When when definition of who you are. When when we're beginning to recognize that, know we're beginning to recognize that, know we're beginning to recognize that, know that it's not going to go away on its that it's not going to go away on its that it's not going to go away on its own. Burnout does not go away on its own. Burnout does not go away on its own. Burnout does not go away on its own. We have to do something about it.

own. We have to do something about it. own. We have to do something about it. So, it's not something to be like, "Oh, So, it's not something to be like, "Oh, So, it's not something to be like, "Oh, I'll take care of this when this next I'll take care of this when this next I'll take care of this when this next campaign is over, or I'll take care of campaign is over, or I'll take care of campaign is over, or I'll take care of this when this next season is over." this when this next season is over." this when this next season is over." There's times where you have to schedule There's times where you have to schedule There's times where you have to schedule it in, but it is not going to go away on it in, but it is not going to go away on it in, but it is not going to go away on its own. So, burnout, that's something its own. So, burnout, that's something its own. So, burnout, that's something we talked about from time to time on we talked about from time to time on we talked about from time to time on this podcast. I would say I don't know this podcast. I would say I don't know this podcast. I would say I don't know how, like, I definitely burned out. That how, like, I definitely burned out. That how, like, I definitely burned out. That was almost 20 years ago. But I don't was almost 20 years ago. But I don't was almost 20 years ago. But I don't know whether it was a calling thing or know whether it was a calling thing or know whether it was a calling thing or whether it was just me being like super whether it was just me being like super whether it was just me being like super driven dude who had no brakes, just a driven dude who had no brakes, just a driven dude who had no brakes, just a gas pedal. That was my 30s. All all gas gas pedal. That was my 30s. All all gas gas pedal. That was my 30s. All all gas pedal, no brakes. And then at 40 I kind pedal, no brakes. And then at 40 I kind pedal, no brakes. And then at 40 I kind of hit a wall and fell off the cliff. of hit a wall and fell off the cliff. of hit a wall and fell off the cliff. Um if if it becomes related to burnout, Um if if it becomes related to burnout, Um if if it becomes related to burnout, what like talk to the leaders who are what like talk to the leaders who are what like talk to the leaders who are listening, how do they know that they've listening, how do they know that they've listening, how do they know that they've crossed a line? What signs are they crossed a line? What signs are they crossed a line? What signs are they looking for? Good. And I love that you looking for? Good. And I love that you looking for? Good. And I love that you distinguish. I mean, there's a lot of distinguish. I mean, there's a lot of distinguish. I mean, there's a lot of types of burnout. I mean, burnout has types of burnout. I mean, burnout has types of burnout. I mean, burnout has been in our vocabulary a lot in the last been in our vocabulary a lot in the last been in our vocabulary a lot in the last five or six years with, you know, the five or six years with, you know, the five or six years with, you know, the lockdown pandemic and different societal lockdown pandemic and different societal lockdown pandemic and different societal changes. And so, burnout is definitely changes. And so, burnout is definitely changes. And so, burnout is definitely getting some spotlight as it should. And getting some spotlight as it should. And getting some spotlight as it should. And regular burnout is a terrible feeling.

regular burnout is a terrible feeling. regular burnout is a terrible feeling. You know, it can include psychological You know, it can include psychological You know, it can include psychological paralysis, apathy, cynicism, emotional paralysis, apathy, cynicism, emotional paralysis, apathy, cynicism, emotional and mental fatigue to the point where and mental fatigue to the point where and mental fatigue to the point where all you want to do is lay in bed, but of all you want to do is lay in bed, but of all you want to do is lay in bed, but of course, that's not satisfying. or you course, that's not satisfying. or you course, that's not satisfying. or you might sit in your car before going to might sit in your car before going to might sit in your car before going to work and just sort of scroll all the work and just sort of scroll all the work and just sort of scroll all the things you can scroll on your phone so things you can scroll on your phone so things you can scroll on your phone so that you're not leaving. Um, and and that you're not leaving. Um, and and that you're not leaving. Um, and and it's not good. So, I just want to it's not good. So, I just want to it's not good. So, I just want to acknowledge that burnout is a terrible, acknowledge that burnout is a terrible, acknowledge that burnout is a terrible, terrible feeling. It is a deep sense of terrible feeling. It is a deep sense of terrible feeling. It is a deep sense of I don't like what I'm doing anymore and I don't like what I'm doing anymore and I don't like what I'm doing anymore and I don't know what to do with that. But I don't know what to do with that. But I don't know what to do with that. But burnout from a calling is different. burnout from a calling is different. burnout from a calling is different. Okay. Burnout from a calling is not I Okay. Burnout from a calling is not I Okay. Burnout from a calling is not I don't like what I'm doing anymore. It's don't like what I'm doing anymore. It's don't like what I'm doing anymore. It's I don't know who I am anymore. And the I don't know who I am anymore. And the I don't know who I am anymore. And the reason for that is when we go back to reason for that is when we go back to reason for that is when we go back to that sense of calling. Calling is about that sense of calling. Calling is about that sense of calling. Calling is about relationship with three different people relationship with three different people relationship with three different people essentially. Calling is about essentially. Calling is about essentially. Calling is about relationship with ourselves. We're the relationship with ourselves. We're the relationship with ourselves. We're the called. So that's called intrapersonal called. So that's called intrapersonal called. So that's called intrapersonal communication. That's communication. You communication. That's communication. You communication. That's communication. You know, you might talk to yourself in when know, you might talk to yourself in when know, you might talk to yourself in when you're like brushing your teeth or going you're like brushing your teeth or going you're like brushing your teeth or going for a walk and you're saying certain for a walk and you're saying certain for a walk and you're saying certain things to yourself about yourself. So things to yourself about yourself. So things to yourself about yourself. So that's intrapersonal communication.

that's intrapersonal communication. that's intrapersonal communication. Calling also involves the caller which Calling also involves the caller which Calling also involves the caller which is God. is God. is God. But calling also involves community. But calling also involves community. But calling also involves community. It's the community that we serve, how It's the community that we serve, how It's the community that we serve, how they react to it, and also the community they react to it, and also the community they react to it, and also the community that impacts us. So our our support that impacts us. So our our support that impacts us. So our our support system. So the reason that burnout from system. So the reason that burnout from system. So the reason that burnout from a calling is a toxic kind of burnout is a calling is a toxic kind of burnout is a calling is a toxic kind of burnout is that there's an element of what that there's an element of what that there's an element of what psychologists call deep shame. M it's a psychologists call deep shame. M it's a psychologists call deep shame. M it's a emotional and spiritual level of shame emotional and spiritual level of shame emotional and spiritual level of shame that what used to feel like a sacred that what used to feel like a sacred that what used to feel like a sacred gift where you were connected to the gift where you were connected to the gift where you were connected to the caller and making a difference in your caller and making a difference in your caller and making a difference in your community you no longer want to do or community you no longer want to do or community you no longer want to do or have the capacity to do and that shame have the capacity to do and that shame have the capacity to do and that shame can be so corrosive to the core of who can be so corrosive to the core of who can be so corrosive to the core of who we are. So so that's you know it's a we are. So so that's you know it's a we are. So so that's you know it's a little bit different than just regular little bit different than just regular little bit different than just regular burnout. burnout. burnout. Let's drill down on shame. Mhm. That's Let's drill down on shame. Mhm. That's Let's drill down on shame. Mhm. That's interesting. Tell me tell me more about interesting. Tell me tell me more about interesting. Tell me tell me more about that. Yeah. So, we can all experience that. Yeah. So, we can all experience that. Yeah. So, we can all experience different types of shame moments. I different types of shame moments. I different types of shame moments. I mean, the great Bnee Brown talks a lot mean, the great Bnee Brown talks a lot mean, the great Bnee Brown talks a lot about that in her research on about that in her research on about that in her research on vulnerability. Um, but shame as it vulnerability. Um, but shame as it vulnerability. Um, but shame as it relates to the to calling involves a relates to the to calling involves a relates to the to calling involves a spiritual labor that really takes us off spiritual labor that really takes us off spiritual labor that really takes us off um off our path with our caller. And it um off our path with our caller. And it um off our path with our caller. And it feels like there's nothing you can do feels like there's nothing you can do feels like there's nothing you can do about it. You can't tell anybody about about it. You can't tell anybody about about it. You can't tell anybody about it. Oh my gosh, this thing that God has it. Oh my gosh, this thing that God has it. Oh my gosh, this thing that God has have has me doing that's so important have has me doing that's so important have has me doing that's so important that I can fill the need with, I don't

that I can fill the need with, I don't that I can fill the need with, I don't want to do it anymore. So, is it like want to do it anymore. So, is it like want to do it anymore. So, is it like you're faking it then? There's this you're faking it then? There's this you're faking it then? There's this cognitive dissonance between how you cognitive dissonance between how you cognitive dissonance between how you feel on the inside and what you're feel on the inside and what you're feel on the inside and what you're projecting on the outside. You're up projecting on the outside. You're up projecting on the outside. You're up there Sunday, the sermon was good, but there Sunday, the sermon was good, but there Sunday, the sermon was good, but meanwhile, you're flat as a pancake meanwhile, you're flat as a pancake meanwhile, you're flat as a pancake inside emotionally. Like, what what is inside emotionally. Like, what what is inside emotionally. Like, what what is just break it down so I understand it. just break it down so I understand it. just break it down so I understand it. Yeah. Yeah. And there is absolutely Yeah. Yeah. And there is absolutely Yeah. Yeah. And there is absolutely emotional labor. Emotional labor is emotional labor. Emotional labor is emotional labor. Emotional labor is real. I mean, people who work at Disney, real. I mean, people who work at Disney, real. I mean, people who work at Disney, I'm in California, they know emotional I'm in California, they know emotional I'm in California, they know emotional labor very tangibly. Um, there's labor very tangibly. Um, there's labor very tangibly. Um, there's emotional labor in the medical field. emotional labor in the medical field. emotional labor in the medical field. You know, I work with hospitals in terms You know, I work with hospitals in terms You know, I work with hospitals in terms of burnout issues, and you talk to them, of burnout issues, and you talk to them, of burnout issues, and you talk to them, and they have to go in and and treat and they have to go in and and treat and they have to go in and and treat people, and if they even try to take a people, and if they even try to take a people, and if they even try to take a break or talk about taking a break, the break or talk about taking a break, the break or talk about taking a break, the idea is someone could literally die. You idea is someone could literally die. You idea is someone could literally die. You work with educators who are constantly work with educators who are constantly work with educators who are constantly on the front lines with the development on the front lines with the development on the front lines with the development of children and adolescence and young of children and adolescence and young of children and adolescence and young adults. And I think with pastors in adults. And I think with pastors in adults. And I think with pastors in particular or explicit ministry, not particular or explicit ministry, not particular or explicit ministry, not only is there emotional performance, but only is there emotional performance, but only is there emotional performance, but there's spiritual performance. You are there's spiritual performance. You are there's spiritual performance. You are meant to lead as a whole person. You are meant to lead as a whole person. You are meant to lead as a whole person. You are invited into space to lead your whole invited into space to lead your whole invited into space to lead your whole self. And so when there's a disruption self. And so when there's a disruption self. And so when there's a disruption there, you have to not only bottle up there, you have to not only bottle up there, you have to not only bottle up emotionally, you have to bottle up emotionally, you have to bottle up emotionally, you have to bottle up spiritually.

spiritually. spiritually. H I think a lot of people can resonate H I think a lot of people can resonate H I think a lot of people can resonate with that. So if I hear you and what with that. So if I hear you and what with that. So if I hear you and what you're saying cuz I I know that's an you're saying cuz I I know that's an you're saying cuz I I know that's an issue even in retirement for leaders. issue even in retirement for leaders. issue even in retirement for leaders. It's like I'm called to this. So they're It's like I'm called to this. So they're It's like I'm called to this. So they're 82 and perhaps their performance started 82 and perhaps their performance started 82 and perhaps their performance started declining 20 years ago, 10 years ago. declining 20 years ago, 10 years ago. declining 20 years ago, 10 years ago. Performance, it's the wrong term, but Performance, it's the wrong term, but Performance, it's the wrong term, but you know what I mean? Like they're just you know what I mean? Like they're just you know what I mean? Like they're just not as effective in their calling, but not as effective in their calling, but not as effective in their calling, but I'm called to this and you're going to I'm called to this and you're going to I'm called to this and you're going to take me out in a pine box. Like I I I I take me out in a pine box. Like I I I I take me out in a pine box. Like I I I I run into that a lot. Uh even when I run into that a lot. Uh even when I run into that a lot. Uh even when I stepped out of the lead pastor role at stepped out of the lead pastor role at stepped out of the lead pastor role at 50, so many people said, "Are you 50, so many people said, "Are you 50, so many people said, "Are you abandoning your calling?" And I'm like, abandoning your calling?" And I'm like, abandoning your calling?" And I'm like, "No, I'm I think I'm moving into a new "No, I'm I think I'm moving into a new "No, I'm I think I'm moving into a new phase of it." Uh and now I serve phase of it." Uh and now I serve phase of it." Uh and now I serve leaders. This is what I do, right? I'd leaders. This is what I do, right? I'd leaders. This is what I do, right? I'd like you to talk about that. Like what like you to talk about that. Like what like you to talk about that. Like what happens happens happens when you hang on too long or when you're when you hang on too long or when you're when you hang on too long or when you're in that shame spiral and you don't feel in that shame spiral and you don't feel in that shame spiral and you don't feel it anymore, but let's be honest, you it anymore, but let's be honest, you it anymore, but let's be honest, you feel called or you need the money. Uh feel called or you need the money. Uh feel called or you need the money. Uh what What do you do? That's real.

what What do you do? That's real. what What do you do? That's real. Because I think that's very real. Yeah. Because I think that's very real. Yeah. Because I think that's very real. Yeah. So again, I love that question and I So again, I love that question and I So again, I love that question and I think it's so tempting to get distracted think it's so tempting to get distracted think it's so tempting to get distracted by the calling. But again, we have to go by the calling. But again, we have to go by the calling. But again, we have to go back to the fact that it's relationship. back to the fact that it's relationship. back to the fact that it's relationship. What are relationships? Are What are relationships? Are What are relationships? Are relationships static? Do they stay the relationships static? Do they stay the relationships static? Do they stay the same? They shouldn't. They should same? They shouldn't. They should same? They shouldn't. They should absolutely grow. They change in seasons? absolutely grow. They change in seasons? absolutely grow. They change in seasons? You know, my son is going to have a You know, my son is going to have a You know, my son is going to have a birthday in two days, and I cannot birthday in two days, and I cannot birthday in two days, and I cannot believe that he's getting so big. I was believe that he's getting so big. I was believe that he's getting so big. I was looking at pictures of him and he was looking at pictures of him and he was looking at pictures of him and he was just a baby like two seconds ago. But he just a baby like two seconds ago. But he just a baby like two seconds ago. But he changes. And I think the the deception changes. And I think the the deception changes. And I think the the deception is as adults, we don't change physically is as adults, we don't change physically is as adults, we don't change physically quite as drastically as you do when quite as drastically as you do when quite as drastically as you do when you're an adolescence. But but we you're an adolescence. But but we you're an adolescence. But but we change. Our calling is going to change. change. Our calling is going to change. change. Our calling is going to change. Our caller does not change. He is the Our caller does not change. He is the Our caller does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and same yesterday, today, and same yesterday, today, and forever. And and that deep core part of forever. And and that deep core part of forever. And and that deep core part of our calling might be the same, but it our calling might be the same, but it our calling might be the same, but it will be expressed differently depending will be expressed differently depending will be expressed differently depending on the season that we're in. It is a on the season that we're in. It is a on the season that we're in. It is a dynamic process. And so I will go on dynamic process. And so I will go on dynamic process. And so I will go on campus a couple time like maybe every campus a couple time like maybe every campus a couple time like maybe every two or three years before the start of two or three years before the start of two or three years before the start of the semester and I'll hold my hands out the semester and I'll hold my hands out the semester and I'll hold my hands out and I love my job Carrie. I love my job.

and I love my job Carrie. I love my job. and I love my job Carrie. I love my job. But I'll hold my hands out and I will But I'll hold my hands out and I will But I'll hold my hands out and I will say, "Father, do you still want me here? say, "Father, do you still want me here? say, "Father, do you still want me here? Cuz I don't want to be here if you don't Cuz I don't want to be here if you don't Cuz I don't want to be here if you don't want me here. I love what I'm doing. I want me here. I love what I'm doing. I want me here. I love what I'm doing. I can't I really can't imagine doing can't I really can't imagine doing can't I really can't imagine doing anything else but if you want me to go anything else but if you want me to go anything else but if you want me to go somewhere else take me there because I somewhere else take me there because I somewhere else take me there because I want to be where you are calling me. And want to be where you are calling me. And want to be where you are calling me. And it is a scary scary prayer. I'm an it is a scary scary prayer. I'm an it is a scary scary prayer. I'm an enagram six so safety and security is my enagram six so safety and security is my enagram six so safety and security is my jam. So to pray that is a lot for me. jam. So to pray that is a lot for me. jam. So to pray that is a lot for me. How do you know the answer to that? How do you know the answer to that? How do you know the answer to that? Yeah. Um I love that question. I think Yeah. Um I love that question. I think Yeah. Um I love that question. I think that my response probably is a little that my response probably is a little that my response probably is a little bit metaphysical, but uh I first sort of bit metaphysical, but uh I first sort of bit metaphysical, but uh I first sort of feel that presence in my spirit because feel that presence in my spirit because feel that presence in my spirit because I think the Holy Spirit is living and I think the Holy Spirit is living and I think the Holy Spirit is living and active. I'm also a big fan of I think active. I'm also a big fan of I think active. I'm also a big fan of I think Annie F. Downs talked about this in one Annie F. Downs talked about this in one Annie F. Downs talked about this in one of her podcasts, but building your own of her podcasts, but building your own of her podcasts, but building your own board. So having a personal board of board. So having a personal board of board. So having a personal board of directors is so essential. If I could directors is so essential. If I could directors is so essential. If I could say anything today, it would maybe be say anything today, it would maybe be say anything today, it would maybe be that to have a healthy calling, you must that to have a healthy calling, you must that to have a healthy calling, you must have accountability for how you pursue have accountability for how you pursue have accountability for how you pursue it, how you live it out, and how you it, how you live it out, and how you it, how you live it out, and how you treat others according to that calling.

treat others according to that calling. treat others according to that calling. And so your board of directors needs to And so your board of directors needs to And so your board of directors needs to be three to five people who you know be three to five people who you know be three to five people who you know will tell you the honest truth, whose will tell you the honest truth, whose will tell you the honest truth, whose lives are full of integrity, and you lives are full of integrity, and you lives are full of integrity, and you want your life to mirror them in some want your life to mirror them in some want your life to mirror them in some way or or another. and they have the way or or another. and they have the way or or another. and they have the freedom to speak into what you're freedom to speak into what you're freedom to speak into what you're saying. Now, I also want to have an saying. Now, I also want to have an saying. Now, I also want to have an asterisk there if that's okay because I asterisk there if that's okay because I asterisk there if that's okay because I know we don't all have this great know we don't all have this great know we don't all have this great community. I think there have been community. I think there have been community. I think there have been seasons in my life where the people on seasons in my life where the people on seasons in my life where the people on my board were not people I knew. So, my board were not people I knew. So, my board were not people I knew. So, like CS Lewis was totally on my board of like CS Lewis was totally on my board of like CS Lewis was totally on my board of director in college, right? I'm reading director in college, right? I'm reading director in college, right? I'm reading his literature and I'm like, "Oh my his literature and I'm like, "Oh my his literature and I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And so, I would have appealed to gosh." And so, I would have appealed to gosh." And so, I would have appealed to his literature um as a checking point his literature um as a checking point his literature um as a checking point for myself, but I think how do you know? for myself, but I think how do you know? for myself, but I think how do you know? I think you got to talk about it with I think you got to talk about it with I think you got to talk about it with people. M how do you select good board people. M how do you select good board people. M how do you select good board of director members? I'm in the process of director members? I'm in the process of director members? I'm in the process of assembling a new board right now of assembling a new board right now of assembling a new board right now actually. It's funny that you mentioned actually. It's funny that you mentioned actually. It's funny that you mentioned that and I've had that over the years that and I've had that over the years that and I've had that over the years and I guess tell me if I'm reading too and I guess tell me if I'm reading too and I guess tell me if I'm reading too much into it, but sometimes your board much into it, but sometimes your board much into it, but sometimes your board of directors gives you permission to do of directors gives you permission to do of directors gives you permission to do things that you will not give yourself things that you will not give yourself things that you will not give yourself permission to do like quit or step back permission to do like quit or step back permission to do like quit or step back or stay in when you want to quit. But or stay in when you want to quit. But or stay in when you want to quit. But that's actually not the right move, that's actually not the right move, that's actually not the right move, right? It's an objective perspective right? It's an objective perspective right? It's an objective perspective beyond you, your wife, and your dog or beyond you, your wife, and your dog or beyond you, your wife, and your dog or whatever it I don't have a dog, but you whatever it I don't have a dog, but you whatever it I don't have a dog, but you know what I mean, right?

know what I mean, right? know what I mean, right? Yeah. So, and it's interesting because I Yeah. So, and it's interesting because I Yeah. So, and it's interesting because I remember when I was given the remember when I was given the remember when I was given the opportunity to write this book on opportunity to write this book on opportunity to write this book on healthy calling, I immediately went to healthy calling, I immediately went to healthy calling, I immediately went to my people. I went to my board and the my people. I went to my board and the my people. I went to my board and the majority of them were like, "You have to majority of them were like, "You have to majority of them were like, "You have to do this." And I didn't want to actually. do this." And I didn't want to actually. do this." And I didn't want to actually. I was very afraid and it was a really I was very afraid and it was a really I was very afraid and it was a really hard time in my own life. I was hard time in my own life. I was hard time in my own life. I was experiencing life burnout when I was experiencing life burnout when I was experiencing life burnout when I was given this opportunity. Um, which is given this opportunity. Um, which is given this opportunity. Um, which is different than calling burnout. um but different than calling burnout. um but different than calling burnout. um but they can impact each other. But a few of they can impact each other. But a few of they can impact each other. But a few of them actually said, "I don't think you them actually said, "I don't think you them actually said, "I don't think you should do it right now." And so that was should do it right now." And so that was should do it right now." And so that was even more confusing. So I had to take a even more confusing. So I had to take a even more confusing. So I had to take a step back and remember why I put them on step back and remember why I put them on step back and remember why I put them on my personal board. There were some that my personal board. There were some that my personal board. There were some that I asked because I loved how they loved I asked because I loved how they loved I asked because I loved how they loved their their their families. There were some that I asked families. There were some that I asked families. There were some that I asked because I loved how they did their job. because I loved how they did their job. because I loved how they did their job. There were some that I asked because I There were some that I asked because I There were some that I asked because I liked how they paid attention to how the liked how they paid attention to how the liked how they paid attention to how the the Holy Spirit moved in their life. And the Holy Spirit moved in their life. And the Holy Spirit moved in their life. And so I think even recognizing the role so I think even recognizing the role so I think even recognizing the role that you're looking for to fill in your that you're looking for to fill in your that you're looking for to fill in your personal board and I don't know maybe personal board and I don't know maybe personal board and I don't know maybe this is just me. I don't think any one this is just me. I don't think any one this is just me. I don't think any one person can fill all of that. I think person can fill all of that. I think person can fill all of that. I think only Jesus can do that. And so in the only Jesus can do that. And so in the only Jesus can do that. And so in the past I think it's been a mistake for me past I think it's been a mistake for me past I think it's been a mistake for me personally to rely on one person to have personally to rely on one person to have personally to rely on one person to have full authority in you know helping guide full authority in you know helping guide full authority in you know helping guide my thinking. I think you need a my thinking. I think you need a my thinking. I think you need a collection of people. I think it's in collection of people. I think it's in collection of people. I think it's in Proverbs that says a wise king has wise Proverbs that says a wise king has wise Proverbs that says a wise king has wise counselors. You know how frequently does counselors. You know how frequently does counselors. You know how frequently does your board meet?

your board meet? your board meet? Yeah. So, Yeah. So, Yeah. So, um I would say right now it's kind of an um I would say right now it's kind of an um I would say right now it's kind of an informal board. So, I don't meet with informal board. So, I don't meet with informal board. So, I don't meet with them together. Um I meet with them them together. Um I meet with them them together. Um I meet with them individually and I make sure that I'm individually and I make sure that I'm individually and I make sure that I'm meeting with one of them once a week. meeting with one of them once a week. meeting with one of them once a week. So, Oh, that's pretty frequent. Yeah, So, Oh, that's pretty frequent. Yeah, So, Oh, that's pretty frequent. Yeah, I'm a I'm a relational person. I like to I'm a I'm a relational person. I like to I'm a I'm a relational person. I like to check in. Now, if I have a big decision, check in. Now, if I have a big decision, check in. Now, if I have a big decision, then I will immediately send out an then I will immediately send out an then I will immediately send out an email to all of them together and say, email to all of them together and say, email to all of them together and say, "Here's what I'm working through. Can "Here's what I'm working through. Can "Here's what I'm working through. Can you pray for me and pray with me? and you pray for me and pray with me? and you pray for me and pray with me? and I'd love to chat with you about that. I'd love to chat with you about that. I'd love to chat with you about that. Um, but I think in other seasons of my Um, but I think in other seasons of my Um, but I think in other seasons of my life where I was really going through life where I was really going through life where I was really going through some decision-m discernment, I would say some decision-m discernment, I would say some decision-m discernment, I would say once a month was when I made sure to once a month was when I made sure to once a month was when I made sure to check in with everybody. Um, right now I check in with everybody. Um, right now I check in with everybody. Um, right now I just I'm I'm a checker inner. So like I just I'm I'm a checker inner. So like I just I'm I'm a checker inner. So like I like to at least check in with one of like to at least check in with one of like to at least check in with one of them a week and be like, "Okay, here's them a week and be like, "Okay, here's them a week and be like, "Okay, here's what I'm here's my high point of the what I'm here's my high point of the what I'm here's my high point of the week and my low point of the week. This week and my low point of the week. This week and my low point of the week. This is where I'm at right now." And just is where I'm at right now." And just is where I'm at right now." And just kind of bounce things off of them. kind of bounce things off of them. kind of bounce things off of them. What was your life burnout like? Yeah, it's been an interest. You know, Yeah, it's been an interest. You know, I'm in that I'm at the early stages of I'm in that I'm at the early stages of I'm in that I'm at the early stages of midlife and I feel like no one tells you midlife and I feel like no one tells you midlife and I feel like no one tells you about that season. Everyone talks about about that season. Everyone talks about about that season. Everyone talks about adolescence, you know, uh they talk adolescence, you know, uh they talk adolescence, you know, uh they talk about early adulthood and even like about early adulthood and even like about early adulthood and even like early parenting or being single in early parenting or being single in early parenting or being single in longer stages of your life. I was the longer stages of your life. I was the longer stages of your life. I was the last one to get married in my social last one to get married in my social last one to get married in my social group and the last one to have a child.

group and the last one to have a child. group and the last one to have a child. So, it was I remember all of those So, it was I remember all of those So, it was I remember all of those things. things. things. Um, I don't think I was prepared for the Um, I don't think I was prepared for the Um, I don't think I was prepared for the panini generation experience where we panini generation experience where we panini generation experience where we had a young kid and our parents all had had a young kid and our parents all had had a young kid and our parents all had pretty significant health issues arise pretty significant health issues arise pretty significant health issues arise and during an economic shift, job and during an economic shift, job and during an economic shift, job changes were happening in my family. Um, changes were happening in my family. Um, changes were happening in my family. Um, and so I remember driving down the and so I remember driving down the and so I remember driving down the freeway and knowing that my mom who' freeway and knowing that my mom who' freeway and knowing that my mom who' just been diagnosed with MS, she was had just been diagnosed with MS, she was had just been diagnosed with MS, she was had recovered from cancer. My dad had this recovered from cancer. My dad had this recovered from cancer. My dad had this big back injury. my mother-in-law has big back injury. my mother-in-law has big back injury. my mother-in-law has Alzheimer's. I mean, there's just like a Alzheimer's. I mean, there's just like a Alzheimer's. I mean, there's just like a lot, right? My father-in-law had two lot, right? My father-in-law had two lot, right? My father-in-law had two strokes in one, you know, in two years. strokes in one, you know, in two years. strokes in one, you know, in two years. I mean, there's just so much. Um, and I I mean, there's just so much. Um, and I I mean, there's just so much. Um, and I felt that Holy Spirit tap of like, hey, felt that Holy Spirit tap of like, hey, felt that Holy Spirit tap of like, hey, you need to probably talk to somebody you need to probably talk to somebody you need to probably talk to somebody about this stress. But I will say this, about this stress. But I will say this, about this stress. But I will say this, um, what landed me in life burnout was I um, what landed me in life burnout was I um, what landed me in life burnout was I think I was writing on the adrenaline of think I was writing on the adrenaline of think I was writing on the adrenaline of pushing through. pushing through. pushing through. I think that adrenaline of pushing I think that adrenaline of pushing I think that adrenaline of pushing through for high-capacity people um it through for high-capacity people um it through for high-capacity people um it feels good, feels good, feels good, you know. It it does if you're motivated you know. It it does if you're motivated you know. It it does if you're motivated and driven. I can't believe we did this.

and driven. I can't believe we did this. and driven. I can't believe we did this. Yeah. I'm stronger. I'm better. I'll do Yeah. I'm stronger. I'm better. I'll do Yeah. I'm stronger. I'm better. I'll do it. Yeah. And so I think that that is a it. Yeah. And so I think that that is a it. Yeah. And so I think that that is a romantic notion we probably need to to romantic notion we probably need to to romantic notion we probably need to to get off of our plate. It's not it's not get off of our plate. It's not it's not get off of our plate. It's not it's not romantic to push through. Um it does romantic to push through. Um it does romantic to push through. Um it does feel good, but that's not the way feel good, but that's not the way feel good, but that's not the way everyday life is supposed to be. How did everyday life is supposed to be. How did everyday life is supposed to be. How did the signs show up in your life that told the signs show up in your life that told the signs show up in your life that told you I have a problem? I went to the ER you I have a problem? I went to the ER you I have a problem? I went to the ER four times in two months. They thought four times in two months. They thought four times in two months. They thought that I was having a panic attack. I that I was having a panic attack. I that I was having a panic attack. I wasn't. As it turns out, I had a wasn't. As it turns out, I had a wasn't. As it turns out, I had a herniated disc in my neck and I had just herniated disc in my neck and I had just herniated disc in my neck and I had just been ignoring the pain cuz I'd had it been ignoring the pain cuz I'd had it been ignoring the pain cuz I'd had it for a while and it started pressing for a while and it started pressing for a while and it started pressing against a nerve that went all the way against a nerve that went all the way against a nerve that went all the way down my left arm and mimicked a sense of down my left arm and mimicked a sense of down my left arm and mimicked a sense of a heart attack. But I'm not, you know, a heart attack. But I'm not, you know, a heart attack. But I'm not, you know, not you in that stage really where that not you in that stage really where that not you in that stage really where that should be the case. No, you're you're should be the case. No, you're you're should be the case. No, you're you're too young for that. Thank you. Thank too young for that. Thank you. Thank too young for that. Thank you. Thank you. Um and so they were like, "Oh, it you. Um and so they were like, "Oh, it you. Um and so they were like, "Oh, it was probably just a panic attack." And was probably just a panic attack." And was probably just a panic attack." And so, um I went back. They actually so, um I went back. They actually so, um I went back. They actually thought that they saw a blood clot in my thought that they saw a blood clot in my thought that they saw a blood clot in my arm, so they gave me blood thinners and arm, so they gave me blood thinners and arm, so they gave me blood thinners and it was awful, Carrie. I thought cuz they it was awful, Carrie. I thought cuz they it was awful, Carrie. I thought cuz they didn't know why I had this blood clot.

didn't know why I had this blood clot. didn't know why I had this blood clot. And so I thought, "Am I going to die?" And so I thought, "Am I going to die?" And so I thought, "Am I going to die?" Wow. And I remember just that was this Wow. And I remember just that was this Wow. And I remember just that was this that was that was that was a really strong crisis. Not a crisis of a really strong crisis. Not a crisis of a really strong crisis. Not a crisis of faith. I knew Jesus was with me, but faith. I knew Jesus was with me, but faith. I knew Jesus was with me, but like a a feeling of helplessness. Like I like a a feeling of helplessness. Like I like a a feeling of helplessness. Like I Your body was starting to show the signs Your body was starting to show the signs Your body was starting to show the signs of the emotional stress that you were of the emotional stress that you were of the emotional stress that you were carrying. The Lord used it so much I had carrying. The Lord used it so much I had carrying. The Lord used it so much I had to change a lot of a lot of things. Um to change a lot of a lot of things. Um to change a lot of a lot of things. Um and the 19th doctor I saw who was a vein and the 19th doctor I saw who was a vein and the 19th doctor I saw who was a vein specialist said, "Um, you've been specialist said, "Um, you've been specialist said, "Um, you've been misdiagnosed. You don't have a blood misdiagnosed. You don't have a blood misdiagnosed. You don't have a blood clot. Get off the blood thinner." And clot. Get off the blood thinner." And clot. Get off the blood thinner." And you know what was really cool? He was a you know what was really cool? He was a you know what was really cool? He was a believer. I was in his office and he was believer. I was in his office and he was believer. I was in his office and he was saying to me, he was like, "Tell me saying to me, he was like, "Tell me saying to me, he was like, "Tell me about the work that you And I was like, about the work that you And I was like, about the work that you And I was like, I'm a professor at Biola. And he's like, I'm a professor at Biola. And he's like, I'm a professor at Biola. And he's like, so are you a believer? And I said, yes. so are you a believer? And I said, yes. so are you a believer? And I said, yes. And I was exhausted at this point, you And I was exhausted at this point, you And I was exhausted at this point, you know. And he said, well, let me tell you know. And he said, well, let me tell you know. And he said, well, let me tell you something. God's got you. The fire will something. God's got you. The fire will something. God's got you. The fire will not touch you. You've been misdiagnosed. not touch you. You've been misdiagnosed. not touch you. You've been misdiagnosed. Get off the medication. And I just Get off the medication. And I just Get off the medication. And I just started balling my eyes out. Oh man. Um, started balling my eyes out. Oh man. Um, started balling my eyes out. Oh man. Um, so so that was life burnout. I will say so so that was life burnout. I will say so so that was life burnout. I will say at the time I was loving my job. My job at the time I was loving my job. My job at the time I was loving my job. My job wasn't burning me out, but it was life.

wasn't burning me out, but it was life. wasn't burning me out, but it was life. But there must have been sight like I But there must have been sight like I But there must have been sight like I understand the physical pain and I think understand the physical pain and I think understand the physical pain and I think every year we seem to understand the every year we seem to understand the every year we seem to understand the link between the emotional link between the emotional link between the emotional spiritual burden we're carrying and our spiritual burden we're carrying and our spiritual burden we're carrying and our physical bodies. It is way more tied physical bodies. It is way more tied physical bodies. It is way more tied than I would have guessed 20 years ago than I would have guessed 20 years ago than I would have guessed 20 years ago and I think many people would have and I think many people would have and I think many people would have guessed 20 years ago. But there must guessed 20 years ago. But there must guessed 20 years ago. But there must have been other signs too like you you have been other signs too like you you have been other signs too like you you mentioned a few earlier. What what were mentioned a few earlier. What what were mentioned a few earlier. What what were the softer signs apart from the physical the softer signs apart from the physical the softer signs apart from the physical pain and symptoms that showed that I'm pain and symptoms that showed that I'm pain and symptoms that showed that I'm not thriving right now? Yeah, that's a not thriving right now? Yeah, that's a not thriving right now? Yeah, that's a really good question. I think, you know, really good question. I think, you know, really good question. I think, you know, I'm being totally candid with you about I'm being totally candid with you about I'm being totally candid with you about this whole interview. So, there you go. this whole interview. So, there you go. this whole interview. So, there you go. This is, you know, vulnerability moment. This is, you know, vulnerability moment. This is, you know, vulnerability moment. Um, I remember because I had a child Um, I remember because I had a child Um, I remember because I had a child later in life and so my career was very later in life and so my career was very later in life and so my career was very much thriving when I had my son and when much thriving when I had my son and when much thriving when I had my son and when I came back to work after I had my son, I came back to work after I had my son, I came back to work after I had my son, it felt really hard to balance that role it felt really hard to balance that role it felt really hard to balance that role of parent and and work and I remember I of parent and and work and I remember I of parent and and work and I remember I was I met with several female faculty was I met with several female faculty was I met with several female faculty and said, "How are you doing this?"

and said, "How are you doing this?" and said, "How are you doing this?" Like, "What are you doing?" And what was Like, "What are you doing?" And what was Like, "What are you doing?" And what was interesting is their advice was great, interesting is their advice was great, interesting is their advice was great, but they were all young moms when they but they were all young moms when they but they were all young moms when they had their kid and I wasn't. And so it it had their kid and I wasn't. And so it it had their kid and I wasn't. And so it it didn't relate to me. I also have a didn't relate to me. I also have a didn't relate to me. I also have a fantastic spouse who is he's like he has fantastic spouse who is he's like he has fantastic spouse who is he's like he has textbook inagram three achiever. His joy textbook inagram three achiever. His joy textbook inagram three achiever. His joy is just accomplishing things and he's an is just accomplishing things and he's an is just accomplishing things and he's an all-in parent, but he definitely like all-in parent, but he definitely like all-in parent, but he definitely like was also very busy and doing things in was also very busy and doing things in was also very busy and doing things in his life. Um, and so I began to feel his life. Um, and so I began to feel his life. Um, and so I began to feel like people thought I wasn't working like people thought I wasn't working like people thought I wasn't working hard enough. That was my own insecurity. hard enough. That was my own insecurity. hard enough. That was my own insecurity. M. And so I said yes to a lot of things M. And so I said yes to a lot of things M. And so I said yes to a lot of things that did not bring me life at work. And that did not bring me life at work. And that did not bring me life at work. And I remember talking to my husband on the I remember talking to my husband on the I remember talking to my husband on the way to work one day and he said, "Hey, way to work one day and he said, "Hey, way to work one day and he said, "Hey, just checking in with you right now. How just checking in with you right now. How just checking in with you right now. How much of your calling, how much of your much of your calling, how much of your much of your calling, how much of your job feels like a calling cuz he knows job feels like a calling cuz he knows job feels like a calling cuz he knows how important that is to me." And I how important that is to me." And I how important that is to me." And I remember pausing and saying, you know, I remember pausing and saying, you know, I remember pausing and saying, you know, I think only about 40% right now. And we think only about 40% right now. And we think only about 40% right now. And we both at the same time breathed out and both at the same time breathed out and both at the same time breathed out and said, "That's not good." Mhm. And so said, "That's not good." Mhm. And so said, "That's not good." Mhm. And so even rerouting that and I took time and even rerouting that and I took time and even rerouting that and I took time and I talked with my advisory board and just I talked with my advisory board and just I talked with my advisory board and just said I think I need to say no to some said I think I need to say no to some said I think I need to say no to some things. I think I you know I don't things. I think I you know I don't things. I think I you know I don't actually feel burnt out burnt out but actually feel burnt out burnt out but actually feel burnt out burnt out but the thing that makes my calling feel the thing that makes my calling feel the thing that makes my calling feel alive is not getting any of the alive is not getting any of the alive is not getting any of the attention. I'm doing all these other attention. I'm doing all these other attention. I'm doing all these other things and so I needed to rearrange some things and so I needed to rearrange some things and so I needed to rearrange some stuff. It's interesting. I I'll test a stuff. It's interesting. I I'll test a stuff. It's interesting. I I'll test a theory I have with you because I'm not a theory I have with you because I'm not a theory I have with you because I'm not a psychologist. do not have a PhD, blah psychologist. do not have a PhD, blah psychologist. do not have a PhD, blah blah blah. But um I, you know, when I blah blah. But um I, you know, when I blah blah. But um I, you know, when I wrote my last book, At Your Best, I wrote my last book, At Your Best, I wrote my last book, At Your Best, I talked about what I call fullout

talked about what I call fullout talked about what I call fullout burnout, which is basically where your burnout, which is basically where your burnout, which is basically where your body stops. You don't declare a finish body stops. You don't declare a finish body stops. You don't declare a finish line, but like you said earlier, you can line, but like you said earlier, you can line, but like you said earlier, you can barely get out of bed in the morning. barely get out of bed in the morning. barely get out of bed in the morning. You're staring at a blinking cursor most You're staring at a blinking cursor most You're staring at a blinking cursor most of the day. You got brain fog. Like, of the day. You got brain fog. Like, of the day. You got brain fog. Like, you're just not functioning. And that's you're just not functioning. And that's you're just not functioning. And that's what happened to me in 2006. But just what happened to me in 2006. But just what happened to me in 2006. But just talking to thousands of leaders about talking to thousands of leaders about talking to thousands of leaders about this, I I had a working definition uh this, I I had a working definition uh this, I I had a working definition uh again non-medical that I just call again non-medical that I just call again non-medical that I just call low-grade burnout. And it's basically my low-grade burnout. And it's basically my low-grade burnout. And it's basically my my definition is some of the symptoms of my definition is some of the symptoms of my definition is some of the symptoms of burnout are present, but you're still burnout are present, but you're still burnout are present, but you're still functioning. So, uh the functions of functioning. So, uh the functions of functioning. So, uh the functions of life continue, but the joy of life is life continue, but the joy of life is life continue, but the joy of life is gone. The joy of your calling, the joy, gone. The joy of your calling, the joy, gone. The joy of your calling, the joy, and listen, you know, we're all and listen, you know, we're all and listen, you know, we're all grown-ups. There are good days and there grown-ups. There are good days and there grown-ups. There are good days and there are bad days. There are days where I are bad days. There are days where I are bad days. There are days where I feel like I think that 80% will feel feel like I think that 80% will feel feel like I think that 80% will feel like Exactly. But I wonder I wonder if like Exactly. But I wonder I wonder if like Exactly. But I wonder I wonder if that's what you're driving at a little that's what you're driving at a little that's what you're driving at a little bit, right? That there you can you can bit, right? That there you can you can bit, right? That there you can you can continue functioning but you've got the continue functioning but you've got the continue functioning but you've got the shame spiral, you've got all of these shame spiral, you've got all of these shame spiral, you've got all of these things happening that maybe are not the things happening that maybe are not the things happening that maybe are not the best. Any thoughts on that? Whether it's best. Any thoughts on that? Whether it's best. Any thoughts on that? Whether it's kind of a like I'm functioning but I'm kind of a like I'm functioning but I'm kind of a like I'm functioning but I'm also probably a little bit burned out.

also probably a little bit burned out. also probably a little bit burned out. Sure. Um well I think one of the big Sure. Um well I think one of the big Sure. Um well I think one of the big eyeopening things and by the way you eyeopening things and by the way you eyeopening things and by the way you know we've I've been honored to share a know we've I've been honored to share a know we've I've been honored to share a bit about my own life but prior to me bit about my own life but prior to me bit about my own life but prior to me experiencing burnout I studied it for experiencing burnout I studied it for experiencing burnout I studied it for for many many years and so you know all for many many years and so you know all for many many years and so you know all the doctor becomes the patient. Yeah. the doctor becomes the patient. Yeah. the doctor becomes the patient. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was I kind of ironic. Yeah. And so it was I kind of ironic. Yeah. And so it was I kind of ironic. I'm like oh I'm experiencing this check I'm like oh I'm experiencing this check I'm like oh I'm experiencing this check check. Oh my gosh this whole list I'm check. Oh my gosh this whole list I'm check. Oh my gosh this whole list I'm experiencing you know how did I get experiencing you know how did I get experiencing you know how did I get here? But I think part of it is I here? But I think part of it is I here? But I think part of it is I thought for the longest time that thought for the longest time that thought for the longest time that burnout was a category. M burnout is a burnout was a category. M burnout is a burnout was a category. M burnout is a spectrum. So if you can imagine for a spectrum. So if you can imagine for a spectrum. So if you can imagine for a minute on one side you've got healthy minute on one side you've got healthy minute on one side you've got healthy calling, healthy life, healthy whatever calling, healthy life, healthy whatever calling, healthy life, healthy whatever and on the other side you've got burnout and on the other side you've got burnout and on the other side you've got burnout or even toxic burnout. So now honestly or even toxic burnout. So now honestly or even toxic burnout. So now honestly every single day I take a minute and every single day I take a minute and every single day I take a minute and think where would I place myself on that think where would I place myself on that think where would I place myself on that line? line? line? Because if we wait until we actually Because if we wait until we actually Because if we wait until we actually feel the consequences of burnout, we're feel the consequences of burnout, we're feel the consequences of burnout, we're already really far into it. But in already really far into it. But in already really far into it. But in actuality, I need to say, "Oh, I'm I actuality, I need to say, "Oh, I'm I actuality, I need to say, "Oh, I'm I think I'm veering more towards this."

think I'm veering more towards this." think I'm veering more towards this." And then you can begin doing the And then you can begin doing the And then you can begin doing the diagnostic and going back to the diagnostic and going back to the diagnostic and going back to the relationships. Okay, relationship relationships. Okay, relationship relationships. Okay, relationship involves myself, the caller, and the involves myself, the caller, and the involves myself, the caller, and the community. Is there one of those areas community. Is there one of those areas community. Is there one of those areas that I'm neglecting or, you know, um not that I'm neglecting or, you know, um not that I'm neglecting or, you know, um not approaching in a way that's that's good? approaching in a way that's that's good? approaching in a way that's that's good? And so you can begin diagnosing those And so you can begin diagnosing those And so you can begin diagnosing those relationships as well. But yeah, I think relationships as well. But yeah, I think relationships as well. But yeah, I think I think that low-grade burnout is is I think that low-grade burnout is is I think that low-grade burnout is is essential to pay attention to. And you essential to pay attention to. And you essential to pay attention to. And you can begin paying attention to it by how can begin paying attention to it by how can begin paying attention to it by how you're talking to other people and how you're talking to other people and how you're talking to other people and how you're talking to yourself. What's how you're talking to yourself. What's how you're talking to yourself. What's how what what's the way that you're talking what what's the way that you're talking what what's the way that you're talking about work? Is it through a cynical about work? Is it through a cynical about work? Is it through a cynical lens, an impatient lens? Um is it is lens, an impatient lens? Um is it is lens, an impatient lens? Um is it is there a short fuse there? Have we lost there a short fuse there? Have we lost there a short fuse there? Have we lost the ability to have empathy? Which by the ability to have empathy? Which by the ability to have empathy? Which by the way, research shows that 80% of the the way, research shows that 80% of the the way, research shows that 80% of the people in our culture today would people in our culture today would people in our culture today would literally work more hours for less literally work more hours for less literally work more hours for less pay if their boss was empathetic. So pay if their boss was empathetic. So pay if their boss was empathetic. So this whole idea of empathy, you can this whole idea of empathy, you can this whole idea of empathy, you can check Gallup, Gallup research. Um I if check Gallup, Gallup research. Um I if check Gallup, Gallup research. Um I if our if we communicate with empathy to our if we communicate with empathy to our if we communicate with empathy to others, people are all in. But to have others, people are all in. But to have others, people are all in. But to have empathy, we need the fuel and the margin empathy, we need the fuel and the margin empathy, we need the fuel and the margin space that really creates that. Wow.

space that really creates that. Wow. space that really creates that. Wow. Okay. So, empathy is not a natural gift Okay. So, empathy is not a natural gift Okay. So, empathy is not a natural gift of mine. I'm in anagram 8. So, we're of mine. I'm in anagram 8. So, we're of mine. I'm in anagram 8. So, we're we're pretty low on empathy and I've we're pretty low on empathy and I've we're pretty low on empathy and I've learned skills over the years. But learned skills over the years. But learned skills over the years. But you're it's it's a very interesting you're it's it's a very interesting you're it's it's a very interesting correlation. This is anecdotal out of my correlation. This is anecdotal out of my correlation. This is anecdotal out of my life. If I'm not doing so well on a life. If I'm not doing so well on a life. If I'm not doing so well on a particular day, week, season where I'm particular day, week, season where I'm particular day, week, season where I'm maybe, you know, trending out of healthy maybe, you know, trending out of healthy maybe, you know, trending out of healthy toward mid-grade burnout, um, my empathy toward mid-grade burnout, um, my empathy toward mid-grade burnout, um, my empathy is one of the first things to go, oh, is one of the first things to go, oh, is one of the first things to go, oh, sure. I just Is that is that a common sure. I just Is that is that a common sure. I just Is that is that a common correlation between Okay, so if you correlation between Okay, so if you correlation between Okay, so if you start to if you notice your empathy start to if you notice your empathy start to if you notice your empathy dipping, wake up, wake up, wake up, wake dipping, wake up, wake up, wake up, wake dipping, wake up, wake up, wake up, wake up. 100%. And by the way, eights, up. 100%. And by the way, eights, up. 100%. And by the way, eights, healthy eights are some of my favorite healthy eights are some of my favorite healthy eights are some of my favorite people because you're advocates. you see people because you're advocates. you see people because you're advocates. you see the injustice and you're like, I am not the injustice and you're like, I am not the injustice and you're like, I am not having that. This is not acceptable. So, having that. This is not acceptable. So, having that. This is not acceptable. So, you know, on a on a good day, a are the you know, on a on a good day, a are the you know, on a on a good day, a are the protectors. You know, that's a good protectors. You know, that's a good protectors. You know, that's a good reminder. I think that that's really reminder. I think that that's really reminder. I think that that's really important. But yeah, empathy is a really important. But yeah, empathy is a really important. But yeah, empathy is a really good fuel gauge. So, to see if that good fuel gauge. So, to see if that good fuel gauge. So, to see if that light has turned on of empty, empty, light has turned on of empty, empty, light has turned on of empty, empty, empty. Um, you know, and another way of empty. Um, you know, and another way of empty. Um, you know, and another way of thinking about that and and you know, is thinking about that and and you know, is thinking about that and and you know, is is this concept of humility, which I is this concept of humility, which I is this concept of humility, which I talk about in my book, is that when talk about in my book, is that when talk about in my book, is that when we're not able to operate in that space we're not able to operate in that space we're not able to operate in that space of humility, we need to immediately pull of humility, we need to immediately pull of humility, we need to immediately pull over. And I know humility is very over. And I know humility is very over. And I know humility is very abstract, so we can totally unpack that abstract, so we can totally unpack that abstract, so we can totally unpack that a bit if you'd like, but but humility is a bit if you'd like, but but humility is a bit if you'd like, but but humility is the compass that will tell you the the compass that will tell you the the compass that will tell you the direction that you're heading in your direction that you're heading in your direction that you're heading in your calling. Are you going in the healthy

calling. Are you going in the healthy calling. Are you going in the healthy way or the unhealthy way? If you need to way or the unhealthy way? If you need to way or the unhealthy way? If you need to know anything at all, if you were to know anything at all, if you were to know anything at all, if you were to have any sort of tool in your tool belt, have any sort of tool in your tool belt, have any sort of tool in your tool belt, humility would be the first thing to humility would be the first thing to humility would be the first thing to have. Okay. So, I want to come back to have. Okay. So, I want to come back to have. Okay. So, I want to come back to that, but before we get there, I want to that, but before we get there, I want to that, but before we get there, I want to deal with diagnosis a little bit longer. deal with diagnosis a little bit longer. deal with diagnosis a little bit longer. You talk Ariana about workcoholism and You talk Ariana about workcoholism and You talk Ariana about workcoholism and calling idolization as a deadly calling idolization as a deadly calling idolization as a deadly duo. Can you unpack that? Yeah, good. So duo. Can you unpack that? Yeah, good. So duo. Can you unpack that? Yeah, good. So again, if we go back to that idea of a again, if we go back to that idea of a again, if we go back to that idea of a spectrum that burnout is not a category, spectrum that burnout is not a category, spectrum that burnout is not a category, it's a spectrum. How do we wind up it's a spectrum. How do we wind up it's a spectrum. How do we wind up there? I don't know that anyone would there? I don't know that anyone would there? I don't know that anyone would want to say, I want to get burnt out, want to say, I want to get burnt out, want to say, I want to get burnt out, you know? Yeah. It's not overnight. you know? Yeah. It's not overnight. you know? Yeah. It's not overnight. You're not like super healthy today and You're not like super healthy today and You're not like super healthy today and totally, you know, trash tomorrow. So totally, you know, trash tomorrow. So totally, you know, trash tomorrow. So it's so there's a lot of things we don't it's so there's a lot of things we don't it's so there's a lot of things we don't have control over in the workplace. if have control over in the workplace. if have control over in the workplace. if we don't have control over, you know, if we don't have control over, you know, if we don't have control over, you know, if you're working in a congregation, the you're working in a congregation, the you're working in a congregation, the type of criticism that you can get on a type of criticism that you can get on a type of criticism that you can get on a regular basis from congregations can be regular basis from congregations can be regular basis from congregations can be massive and personal and exhausting. We massive and personal and exhausting. We massive and personal and exhausting. We don't always have control over that. Um, don't always have control over that. Um, don't always have control over that. Um, if we're not at the top, we don't always if we're not at the top, we don't always if we're not at the top, we don't always have control over bosses who have issues have control over bosses who have issues have control over bosses who have issues or who use spiritual labor or who use spiritual labor or who use spiritual labor inappropriately. So, if you like go to inappropriately. So, if you like go to inappropriately. So, if you like go to them and you say, "This thing is them and you say, "This thing is them and you say, "This thing is happening that's hard." and they say happening that's hard." and they say happening that's hard." and they say something like, "Well, you you better something like, "Well, you you better something like, "Well, you you better pray about it. We all have trials in pray about it. We all have trials in pray about it. We all have trials in this world." I mean, that's a legit this world." I mean, that's a legit this world." I mean, that's a legit response that someone I was working with response that someone I was working with response that someone I was working with was dealing with. And so, we we should was dealing with. And so, we we should was dealing with. And so, we we should never ever use faith as a way of just, never ever use faith as a way of just, never ever use faith as a way of just, you know, quieting people down. We don't

you know, quieting people down. We don't you know, quieting people down. We don't have control over those things. We don't have control over those things. We don't have control over those things. We don't have control over whether or not we're have control over whether or not we're have control over whether or not we're just really worried if we can pay the just really worried if we can pay the just really worried if we can pay the bills this month. We don't have control bills this month. We don't have control bills this month. We don't have control over that necessarily. But the two over that necessarily. But the two over that necessarily. But the two things we have control over that can things we have control over that can things we have control over that can lead us to burnout are workcoholism and lead us to burnout are workcoholism and lead us to burnout are workcoholism and job idolization. And they creep up on job idolization. And they creep up on job idolization. And they creep up on you. So workcoholism is an addiction. It you. So workcoholism is an addiction. It you. So workcoholism is an addiction. It is not a compliment. We need to stop is not a compliment. We need to stop is not a compliment. We need to stop talking about it as a compliment. You talking about it as a compliment. You talking about it as a compliment. You can say someone has a high capacity. can say someone has a high capacity. can say someone has a high capacity. That's That's That's great. But workcoholism, workcoholism is great. But workcoholism, workcoholism is great. But workcoholism, workcoholism is an addiction and it starts off like any an addiction and it starts off like any an addiction and it starts off like any other addiction where you're doing it other addiction where you're doing it other addiction where you're doing it because it feels good. But it moves to because it feels good. But it moves to because it feels good. But it moves to you're doing it to avoid the bad you're doing it to avoid the bad you're doing it to avoid the bad feelings when you stop doing it. It's a feelings when you stop doing it. It's a feelings when you stop doing it. It's a compulsion. So, let's take that into compulsion. So, let's take that into compulsion. So, let's take that into work. Maybe you're so used to responding work. Maybe you're so used to responding work. Maybe you're so used to responding to urgency. Like, someone just died. We to urgency. Like, someone just died. We to urgency. Like, someone just died. We need to go speak at a funeral or, you need to go speak at a funeral or, you need to go speak at a funeral or, you know, this person's in the hospital or know, this person's in the hospital or know, this person's in the hospital or this family's having a marriage crisis. this family's having a marriage crisis. this family's having a marriage crisis. Can you please be there? um or for me as Can you please be there? um or for me as Can you please be there? um or for me as a faculty it's you know students having a faculty it's you know students having a faculty it's you know students having all sorts of not just assignment issues all sorts of not just assignment issues all sorts of not just assignment issues but mental health issues and you know but mental health issues and you know but mental health issues and you know abuse issues that happen that that's abuse issues that happen that that's abuse issues that happen that that's that come up and that you have to deal that come up and that you have to deal that come up and that you have to deal with. So you're used to being the on with. So you're used to being the on with. So you're used to being the on call person and then there's a moment call person and then there's a moment call person and then there's a moment where you're not on call and it feels where you're not on call and it feels where you're not on call and it feels wildly uncomfortable wildly uncomfortable wildly uncomfortable and all the emotions surface and all the and all the emotions surface and all the and all the emotions surface and all the things and thoughts that you've been things and thoughts that you've been things and thoughts that you've been pushing down surface. And so the pushing down surface. And so the pushing down surface. And so the tendency in workaholic uh nature is to tendency in workaholic uh nature is to tendency in workaholic uh nature is to go and keep working because that feels go and keep working because that feels go and keep working because that feels controllable. My life might feel controllable. My life might feel controllable. My life might feel uncontrollable in other places but

uncontrollable in other places but uncontrollable in other places but that's controllable. So that's an that's controllable. So that's an that's controllable. So that's an addiction. Job idolization is a little addiction. Job idolization is a little addiction. Job idolization is a little bit different. So job idolization is bit different. So job idolization is bit different. So job idolization is when work becomes the ultimate priority. when work becomes the ultimate priority. when work becomes the ultimate priority. It becomes the sole reason for living. It becomes the sole reason for living. It becomes the sole reason for living. You define yourself by your job. You You define yourself by your job. You You define yourself by your job. You don't show up for people who you are don't show up for people who you are don't show up for people who you are committed to because of your job on a committed to because of your job on a committed to because of your job on a regular basis and you use that as the regular basis and you use that as the regular basis and you use that as the excuse. So in this way work is not just excuse. So in this way work is not just excuse. So in this way work is not just an expression of who you are. It's not an expression of who you are. It's not an expression of who you are. It's not as Oz Guinness the theologian said you as Oz Guinness the theologian said you as Oz Guinness the theologian said you know um do what you are versus you are know um do what you are versus you are know um do what you are versus you are what you do you know and so this whole what you do you know and so this whole what you do you know and so this whole idea of figuring out uh work as an idea of figuring out uh work as an idea of figuring out uh work as an expression of who you are versus the expression of who you are versus the expression of who you are versus the definition of who you are. And when job definition of who you are. And when job definition of who you are. And when job idolization occurs, like any other idol, idolization occurs, like any other idol, idolization occurs, like any other idol, it becomes the thing that consumes our it becomes the thing that consumes our it becomes the thing that consumes our thoughts. So, church leaders and thoughts. So, church leaders and thoughts. So, church leaders and Christians who are living out a calling, Christians who are living out a calling, Christians who are living out a calling, I wonder if we are especially I wonder if we are especially I wonder if we are especially susceptible to this because I know when susceptible to this because I know when susceptible to this because I know when I was at my least healthy in ministry, I was at my least healthy in ministry, I was at my least healthy in ministry, and I think I've I've somewhat and I think I've I've somewhat and I think I've I've somewhat disentangled myself from this. It was disentangled myself from this. It was disentangled myself from this. It was like to rest is being unfaithful because like to rest is being unfaithful because like to rest is being unfaithful because I have this calling and I was being in I have this calling and I was being in I have this calling and I was being in my 30s deeply rewarded because of my 30s deeply rewarded because of my 30s deeply rewarded because of spectacular growth in the church. So spectacular growth in the church. So spectacular growth in the church. So it's like clearly Jesus is in me working it's like clearly Jesus is in me working it's like clearly Jesus is in me working more hours and maybe it's a little more hours and maybe it's a little more hours and maybe it's a little chaotic at home. So I'm just going to chaotic at home. So I'm just going to chaotic at home. So I'm just going to keep at work as you say it's masking keep at work as you say it's masking keep at work as you say it's masking issues. Like does that seem to be an

issues. Like does that seem to be an issues. Like does that seem to be an occupational hazard for church leaders occupational hazard for church leaders occupational hazard for church leaders and Christians with a high sense of and Christians with a high sense of and Christians with a high sense of calling? It is an occupational hazard calling? It is an occupational hazard calling? It is an occupational hazard for those who feel called in whatever in for those who feel called in whatever in for those who feel called in whatever in whatever profession could be. I'm called whatever profession could be. I'm called whatever profession could be. I'm called to be a doctor. I'm called to be an to be a doctor. I'm called to be an to be a doctor. I'm called to be an artist. I'm called to be a shop owner. artist. I'm called to be a shop owner. artist. I'm called to be a shop owner. Because again, remember I mean I Because again, remember I mean I Because again, remember I mean I interviewed an NFL coach who felt like interviewed an NFL coach who felt like interviewed an NFL coach who felt like it was his calling to coach these it was his calling to coach these it was his calling to coach these players not just to win the game but to players not just to win the game but to players not just to win the game but to be good men. So his urgency in shaping be good men. So his urgency in shaping be good men. So his urgency in shaping them was not simply to win but it was to them was not simply to win but it was to them was not simply to win but it was to to help them be better humans. And when to help them be better humans. And when to help them be better humans. And when is that job ever done? Yeah, it's not. is that job ever done? Yeah, it's not. is that job ever done? Yeah, it's not. And in fact, when's the mission of the And in fact, when's the mission of the And in fact, when's the mission of the church ever done? Never. Right. Exactly. church ever done? Never. Right. Exactly. church ever done? Never. Right. Exactly. One of the things that I noticed in the One of the things that I noticed in the One of the things that I noticed in the data were people who felt called and data were people who felt called and data were people who felt called and managed to either avoid the depths of managed to either avoid the depths of managed to either avoid the depths of burnout or when they got there get burnout or when they got there get burnout or when they got there get themselves out. And there are specific themselves out. And there are specific themselves out. And there are specific things that fall into that whole things that fall into that whole things that fall into that whole humility component that we'll talk about humility component that we'll talk about humility component that we'll talk about in a minute. But this NFL coach had a in a minute. But this NFL coach had a in a minute. But this NFL coach had a special uh meal with his wife at the end special uh meal with his wife at the end special uh meal with his wife at the end of every season and he said, "Tell me of every season and he said, "Tell me of every season and he said, "Tell me where I didn't show up for you this where I didn't show up for you this where I didn't show up for you this season." Whoa. Every season." Whoa. Every season." Whoa. Every season. He wanted to know where did I season. He wanted to know where did I season. He wanted to know where did I fall short and what can we do about it fall short and what can we do about it fall short and what can we do about it in the future? And actually, she felt in the future? And actually, she felt in the future? And actually, she felt called to be his support system. I mean, called to be his support system. I mean, called to be his support system. I mean, they both were operating this really they both were operating this really they both were operating this really cool capacity together. H how do you cool capacity together. H how do you cool capacity together. H how do you separate who you are from what you do?

separate who you are from what you do? separate who you are from what you do? It's really hard. I think about it every It's really hard. I think about it every It's really hard. I think about it every I don't want to say every day, but every I don't want to say every day, but every I don't want to say every day, but every week because I feel like it's a mind week because I feel like it's a mind week because I feel like it's a mind game, Ariana, like I was a pastor for 25 game, Ariana, like I was a pastor for 25 game, Ariana, like I was a pastor for 25 years teaching and lead seat and years teaching and lead seat and years teaching and lead seat and everything like that. And now I do this everything like that. And now I do this everything like that. And now I do this in the Christian space. Well, you know, in the Christian space. Well, you know, in the Christian space. Well, you know, in the marketplace, but mostly we serve in the marketplace, but mostly we serve in the marketplace, but mostly we serve Christian leaders. And you know, I'm Christian leaders. And you know, I'm Christian leaders. And you know, I'm like, well, I think I think I'm uh you like, well, I think I think I'm uh you like, well, I think I think I'm uh you know, I'm gonna be okay if I don't work know, I'm gonna be okay if I don't work know, I'm gonna be okay if I don't work at this anymore. But honestly, I don't at this anymore. But honestly, I don't at this anymore. But honestly, I don't know. I don't know. I've only ever done know. I don't know. I've only ever done know. I don't know. I've only ever done this since I was 30. And like what? Like this since I was 30. And like what? Like this since I was 30. And like what? Like I don't know. How do you separate who I don't know. How do you separate who I don't know. How do you separate who you are from what you do? Yeah. So, so you are from what you do? Yeah. So, so you are from what you do? Yeah. So, so good. So, part of it is taking away the good. So, part of it is taking away the good. So, part of it is taking away the job title and going back to the skill job title and going back to the skill job title and going back to the skill sets and the passions that you get to do sets and the passions that you get to do sets and the passions that you get to do in that job. Okay. So, I feel the same. in that job. Okay. So, I feel the same. in that job. Okay. So, I feel the same. Like, I had no idea what I wanted to do, Like, I had no idea what I wanted to do, Like, I had no idea what I wanted to do, by the way, when I was in college. I by the way, when I was in college. I by the way, when I was in college. I changed my major five times. I was one changed my major five times. I was one changed my major five times. I was one of those people that like I just had no of those people that like I just had no of those people that like I just had no idea. I thought I wanted to work in the idea. I thought I wanted to work in the idea. I thought I wanted to work in the church. I didn't have a good experience church. I didn't have a good experience church. I didn't have a good experience doing that. I thought, "Oh my gosh, doing that. I thought, "Oh my gosh, doing that. I thought, "Oh my gosh, these people need to learn how to these people need to learn how to these people need to learn how to communicate." So, I went back, you know, communicate." So, I went back, you know, communicate." So, I went back, you know, you're not alone. Yeah. Yeah. And and so you're not alone. Yeah. Yeah. And and so you're not alone. Yeah. Yeah. And and so I but I love being a professor. Like, I I but I love being a professor. Like, I I but I love being a professor. Like, I I love it so much. However, occasionally I love it so much. However, occasionally I love it so much. However, occasionally have to remind myself, what do I love?

have to remind myself, what do I love? have to remind myself, what do I love? I love I love I love mentoring. I love the opportunity to mentoring. I love the opportunity to mentoring. I love the opportunity to collaboratively learn. I love speaking collaboratively learn. I love speaking collaboratively learn. I love speaking before lots of people. And I love the before lots of people. And I love the before lots of people. And I love the one-on-one one-on-one one-on-one relationships. I love integrating my relationships. I love integrating my relationships. I love integrating my faith into what I'm teaching. Could I do faith into what I'm teaching. Could I do faith into what I'm teaching. Could I do all of those things in another job if I all of those things in another job if I all of those things in another job if I wasn't a professor? Probably. wasn't a professor? Probably. wasn't a professor? Probably. And so figuring out that the skill sets And so figuring out that the skill sets And so figuring out that the skill sets and the passions that God has given you, and the passions that God has given you, and the passions that God has given you, yeah, those are you, but how you're able yeah, those are you, but how you're able yeah, those are you, but how you're able to do them in your job, that could look to do them in your job, that could look to do them in your job, that could look different in a variety of ways. You different in a variety of ways. You different in a variety of ways. You know, my father was also a pastor for a know, my father was also a pastor for a know, my father was also a pastor for a while. He he's like so gifted. He's while. He he's like so gifted. He's while. He he's like so gifted. He's everything I learned about good everything I learned about good everything I learned about good communication comes from him and my mom. communication comes from him and my mom. communication comes from him and my mom. his his public speaking persona and his his his public speaking persona and his his his public speaking persona and his shephering heart. I mean, when he shephering heart. I mean, when he shephering heart. I mean, when he speaks, you listen, you know, and he's speaks, you listen, you know, and he's speaks, you listen, you know, and he's gentle and kind, but he ended up gentle and kind, but he ended up gentle and kind, but he ended up stopping his job as a as a pastor stopping his job as a as a pastor stopping his job as a as a pastor because he grew up as a with a single because he grew up as a with a single because he grew up as a with a single mom in the south and he really felt mom in the south and he really felt mom in the south and he really felt called to be a dad and a husband and he called to be a dad and a husband and he called to be a dad and a husband and he saw the conflicting nature of that when saw the conflicting nature of that when saw the conflicting nature of that when he was doing his pastoral work. So he he was doing his pastoral work. So he he was doing his pastoral work. So he and my mom went on to be uh real estate and my mom went on to be uh real estate and my mom went on to be uh real estate agents and that pastoral sense he used agents and that pastoral sense he used agents and that pastoral sense he used to rock it as a realtor. You know, he to rock it as a realtor. You know, he to rock it as a realtor. You know, he like prayed for his clients and you and like prayed for his clients and you and like prayed for his clients and you and on the side gig he had um small groups on the side gig he had um small groups on the side gig he had um small groups that he was a part of. He became a that he was a part of. He became a that he was a part of. He became a chaplain for first responders. He still chaplain for first responders. He still chaplain for first responders. He still did pastoral work. It just wasn't in the

did pastoral work. It just wasn't in the did pastoral work. It just wasn't in the role of pastor. role of pastor. role of pastor. I think that's a really helpful framing I think that's a really helpful framing I think that's a really helpful framing because I think a lot of us imagine if I because I think a lot of us imagine if I because I think a lot of us imagine if I stop this role, whatever this role is, stop this role, whatever this role is, stop this role, whatever this role is, the tap turns off overnight. And the the tap turns off overnight. And the the tap turns off overnight. And the reality is, you know, when you're going reality is, you know, when you're going reality is, you know, when you're going through your inventory, I think about through your inventory, I think about through your inventory, I think about it. What do I love doing? Well, I love it. What do I love doing? Well, I love it. What do I love doing? Well, I love contributing. I love shaping ideas. I contributing. I love shaping ideas. I contributing. I love shaping ideas. I love connecting with people and having love connecting with people and having love connecting with people and having great conversations, hence the podcast. great conversations, hence the podcast. great conversations, hence the podcast. I do love speaking in front of people. I do love speaking in front of people. I do love speaking in front of people. and as much these days connecting with and as much these days connecting with and as much these days connecting with people offstage as much as I love being people offstage as much as I love being people offstage as much as I love being on stage. But I love that connection in on stage. But I love that connection in on stage. But I love that connection in the church and leadership space. I love the church and leadership space. I love the church and leadership space. I love talking to atheist thought leaders about talking to atheist thought leaders about talking to atheist thought leaders about their faith. And yeah, right now my job their faith. And yeah, right now my job their faith. And yeah, right now my job enables all of that. But that doesn't enables all of that. But that doesn't enables all of that. But that doesn't necessarily mean if this ends tomorrow, necessarily mean if this ends tomorrow, necessarily mean if this ends tomorrow, and I hope it doesn't. Hope there's many and I hope it doesn't. Hope there's many and I hope it doesn't. Hope there's many years left. But if it does, that that years left. But if it does, that that years left. But if it does, that that just means I can reinvent new ways of just means I can reinvent new ways of just means I can reinvent new ways of using those skills in the future. Is using those skills in the future. Is using those skills in the future. Is that what you're saying? That's exactly that what you're saying? That's exactly that what you're saying? That's exactly what I'm saying. And I think when we do what I'm saying. And I think when we do what I'm saying. And I think when we do that, we don't hold to our calling with that, we don't hold to our calling with that, we don't hold to our calling with tight fists, right? We hold to our tight fists, right? We hold to our tight fists, right? We hold to our calling with grateful open hands. And so calling with grateful open hands. And so calling with grateful open hands. And so that is where we begin focusing on the that is where we begin focusing on the that is where we begin focusing on the caller who equipped us with these skills caller who equipped us with these skills caller who equipped us with these skills who is capable and able to give us more who is capable and able to give us more who is capable and able to give us more opportunities to develop more skills and opportunities to develop more skills and opportunities to develop more skills and even discover new passions. I mean I even discover new passions. I mean I even discover new passions. I mean I love doing consulting work. As much as I love doing consulting work. As much as I love doing consulting work. As much as I love teaching, when I get to work with

love teaching, when I get to work with love teaching, when I get to work with churches and organizations on healthy churches and organizations on healthy churches and organizations on healthy communication practices and we talk communication practices and we talk communication practices and we talk about how to have healthy conflict in about how to have healthy conflict in about how to have healthy conflict in the workplace or the the role of the workplace or the the role of the workplace or the the role of listening styles or the need for listening styles or the need for listening styles or the need for structure in decision-m when we talk structure in decision-m when we talk structure in decision-m when we talk about that and I see people's eyes light about that and I see people's eyes light about that and I see people's eyes light up, it feels part like part of my up, it feels part like part of my up, it feels part like part of my calling. calling. calling. Uh, another framing I've heard that I've Uh, another framing I've heard that I've Uh, another framing I've heard that I've found helpful, uh, I'll give him credit, found helpful, uh, I'll give him credit, found helpful, uh, I'll give him credit, Brad Lick. I don't know that you know Brad Lick. I don't know that you know Brad Lick. I don't know that you know Brad, he's amazing, but been a frequent Brad, he's amazing, but been a frequent Brad, he's amazing, but been a frequent appear on this podcast. I remember when appear on this podcast. I remember when appear on this podcast. I remember when I stepped out of the lead pastor role, I stepped out of the lead pastor role, I stepped out of the lead pastor role, he says, "No, your calling didn't shift. he says, "No, your calling didn't shift. he says, "No, your calling didn't shift. Your assignment did." In other words, Your assignment did." In other words, Your assignment did." In other words, you're called, but now you have a new you're called, but now you have a new you're called, but now you have a new assignment. So, imagine being a member assignment. So, imagine being a member assignment. So, imagine being a member of the military. It's like, I was of the military. It's like, I was of the military. It's like, I was deployed here, but now I'm deployed deployed here, but now I'm deployed deployed here, but now I'm deployed there. Right? That kind of thing. Is there. Right? That kind of thing. Is there. Right? That kind of thing. Is that a helpful framing as well of how to that a helpful framing as well of how to that a helpful framing as well of how to think of it? I think it can be. I guess think of it? I think it can be. I guess think of it? I think it can be. I guess the I would say though that calling the I would say though that calling the I would say though that calling itself can can grow and develop and we itself can can grow and develop and we itself can can grow and develop and we can have seasonal callings. We can have can have seasonal callings. We can have can have seasonal callings. We can have multiple callings. Sure. So I do like multiple callings. Sure. So I do like multiple callings. Sure. So I do like that idea that your assignment changed.

that idea that your assignment changed. that idea that your assignment changed. I would just go back to your I would just go back to your I would just go back to your relationship with your caller is relationship with your caller is relationship with your caller is constantly on the move, you know. Yeah. constantly on the move, you know. Yeah. constantly on the move, you know. Yeah. And I think if we can be open to the And I think if we can be open to the And I think if we can be open to the fact that actually it can grow and it fact that actually it can grow and it fact that actually it can grow and it can move. U but the Lord is faithful. He can move. U but the Lord is faithful. He can move. U but the Lord is faithful. He is a faithful caller. He's a teacher. is a faithful caller. He's a teacher. is a faithful caller. He's a teacher. He's a rabbi. He wants us to sit at his He's a rabbi. He wants us to sit at his He's a rabbi. He wants us to sit at his feet and learn. He wants us to ask feet and learn. He wants us to ask feet and learn. He wants us to ask questions. He's the kind of teacher who questions. He's the kind of teacher who questions. He's the kind of teacher who says, "Smart people ask questions. says, "Smart people ask questions. says, "Smart people ask questions. What's your next question?" You know? What's your next question?" You know? What's your next question?" You know? So, is So, is So, is it is it an unhelpful thing then? it is it an unhelpful thing then? it is it an unhelpful thing then? Because a lot of people when they get Because a lot of people when they get Because a lot of people when they get called into full-time ministry, like called into full-time ministry, like called into full-time ministry, like pastoral ministry, are like, "This is a pastoral ministry, are like, "This is a pastoral ministry, are like, "This is a lifelong calling." Is that a false lifelong calling." Is that a false lifelong calling." Is that a false dichotomy? Is that a false assumption? dichotomy? Is that a false assumption? dichotomy? Is that a false assumption? That assumption makes me nervous. Okay. That assumption makes me nervous. Okay. That assumption makes me nervous. Okay. I think that our lifelong calling is to I think that our lifelong calling is to I think that our lifelong calling is to love God and love others. And maybe we love God and love others. And maybe we love God and love others. And maybe we needed to go back here for a minute to needed to go back here for a minute to needed to go back here for a minute to talk about primary calling versus talk about primary calling versus talk about primary calling versus secondary calling. Yeah. As believers, secondary calling. Yeah. As believers, secondary calling. Yeah. As believers, we are all called, all of us, to love we are all called, all of us, to love we are all called, all of us, to love God and love others. Same coin, God and love others. Same coin, God and love others. Same coin, different side. How we love God is how different side. How we love God is how different side. How we love God is how we love others. When we're loving we love others. When we're loving we love others. When we're loving others, well, we are loving God.

others, well, we are loving God. others, well, we are loving God. and he's also made us with specific and he's also made us with specific and he's also made us with specific skill sets and passions that when we skill sets and passions that when we skill sets and passions that when we have the opportunity to leverage those, have the opportunity to leverage those, have the opportunity to leverage those, we feel like we're worshiping the Lord. we feel like we're worshiping the Lord. we feel like we're worshiping the Lord. So, I think I would feel concerned for So, I think I would feel concerned for So, I think I would feel concerned for someone to say this this job is your someone to say this this job is your someone to say this this job is your lifelong calling. I'm not sure that any lifelong calling. I'm not sure that any lifelong calling. I'm not sure that any research I know backs that up. And when research I know backs that up. And when research I know backs that up. And when I think of scripture components, I don't I think of scripture components, I don't I think of scripture components, I don't know of any story of someone in the know of any story of someone in the know of any story of someone in the Bible where that really could be the Bible where that really could be the Bible where that really could be the case. Yeah. Well, and you know the case. Yeah. Well, and you know the case. Yeah. Well, and you know the common argument we look at Moses, you common argument we look at Moses, you common argument we look at Moses, you know, he died with his boots on, that know, he died with his boots on, that know, he died with his boots on, that kind of thing. But I think I think kind of thing. But I think I think kind of thing. But I think I think that's very And the people who say it that's very And the people who say it that's very And the people who say it the loudest are the people who are the the loudest are the people who are the the loudest are the people who are the unhealthiest. For sure. Yes. They're the unhealthiest. For sure. Yes. They're the unhealthiest. For sure. Yes. They're the ones hanging on when everyone else says, ones hanging on when everyone else says, ones hanging on when everyone else says, "You should have tapped out a few years "You should have tapped out a few years "You should have tapped out a few years ago." Okay. We You've mentioned this a ago." Okay. We You've mentioned this a ago." Okay. We You've mentioned this a few times, but humility, can we unpack few times, but humility, can we unpack few times, but humility, can we unpack that a little bit? like how does that a little bit? like how does that a little bit? like how does humility address everything that we've humility address everything that we've humility address everything that we've been talking about including toxic been talking about including toxic been talking about including toxic calling, calling, calling, burnout, all of those things? Yeah. So, burnout, all of those things? Yeah. So, burnout, all of those things? Yeah. So, I um I think that humility has been not I um I think that humility has been not I um I think that humility has been not not that I'm humble, but the the the not that I'm humble, but the the the not that I'm humble, but the the the study of humility has been following me study of humility has been following me study of humility has been following me along for a really long time, actually.

along for a really long time, actually. along for a really long time, actually. You know, I in junior high, I went to a You know, I in junior high, I went to a You know, I in junior high, I went to a Christian school and we had to select a Christian school and we had to select a Christian school and we had to select a verse that would be like our verse for verse that would be like our verse for verse that would be like our verse for that year. And my verse was from that year. And my verse was from that year. And my verse was from Ephesians. Ephesians 4, be completely Ephesians. Ephesians 4, be completely Ephesians. Ephesians 4, be completely humble and gentle. Be patient, bearing humble and gentle. Be patient, bearing humble and gentle. Be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every with one another in love. Make every with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the spirit effort to keep the unity of the spirit effort to keep the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace. I did that through the bond of peace. I did that through the bond of peace. I did that when I was 12, and I remember it. Fast when I was 12, and I remember it. Fast when I was 12, and I remember it. Fast forward to the third year of my of my forward to the third year of my of my forward to the third year of my of my job at Biola, I was starting to feel job at Biola, I was starting to feel job at Biola, I was starting to feel work burnout. That was that the one that work burnout. That was that the one that work burnout. That was that the one that I talk about in in the book. I was on I talk about in in the book. I was on I talk about in in the book. I was on too many committees and teaching and too many committees and teaching and too many committees and teaching and overload. I finally got engaged. I was overload. I finally got engaged. I was overload. I finally got engaged. I was planning a wedding and I just I was very planning a wedding and I just I was very planning a wedding and I just I was very burnt out. And so I saw this uh burnt out. And so I saw this uh burnt out. And so I saw this uh fellowship, a research fellowship. I fellowship, a research fellowship. I fellowship, a research fellowship. I didn't even look to see what the topic didn't even look to see what the topic didn't even look to see what the topic was, Carrie. I'm like, I just need I was, Carrie. I'm like, I just need I was, Carrie. I'm like, I just need I need an out. And with this fellowship, need an out. And with this fellowship, need an out. And with this fellowship, you only teach half a load. So I you only teach half a load. So I you only teach half a load. So I thought, as much as I love teaching, I thought, as much as I love teaching, I thought, as much as I love teaching, I need a little bit of a break. So I need a little bit of a break. So I need a little bit of a break. So I signed up for this and I realized it was signed up for this and I realized it was signed up for this and I realized it was for humility to study humility. So for a for humility to study humility. So for a for humility to study humility. So for a semester I was in a room with all these semester I was in a room with all these semester I was in a room with all these other scholars about 10 of us from other scholars about 10 of us from other scholars about 10 of us from across the world studying the virtue of across the world studying the virtue of across the world studying the virtue of humility. And it was interesting. I what humility. And it was interesting. I what humility. And it was interesting. I what what I thought was interesting is that what I thought was interesting is that what I thought was interesting is that nobody can really agree on a definition.

nobody can really agree on a definition. nobody can really agree on a definition. Um it can mean a lot of different Um it can mean a lot of different Um it can mean a lot of different things. But when I began looking at the things. But when I began looking at the things. But when I began looking at the data of humility, the descriptions and data of humility, the descriptions and data of humility, the descriptions and then I was reflecting on the people who then I was reflecting on the people who then I was reflecting on the people who I've interviewed who um managed to have I've interviewed who um managed to have I've interviewed who um managed to have healthy calling. They literally healthy calling. They literally healthy calling. They literally overlapped on each other overlapped on each other overlapped on each other in three specific in three specific in three specific ways. Humility communicated enacted has ways. Humility communicated enacted has ways. Humility communicated enacted has three components to it. It's a three components to it. It's a three components to it. It's a relational endeavor by the way. Humility relational endeavor by the way. Humility relational endeavor by the way. Humility it's relational. And the first is that it's relational. And the first is that it's relational. And the first is that you are aware of your strengths and you you are aware of your strengths and you you are aware of your strengths and you are aware of your weaknesses and you're are aware of your weaknesses and you're are aware of your weaknesses and you're not distracted by either not distracted by either not distracted by either one. So humility means knowing who you one. So humility means knowing who you one. So humility means knowing who you are. You are aware of your strengths. are. You are aware of your strengths. are. You are aware of your strengths. you know what you're good at because you you know what you're good at because you you know what you're good at because you look at all sorts of books like Jim look at all sorts of books like Jim look at all sorts of books like Jim Collins good to great or anything by Pat Collins good to great or anything by Pat Collins good to great or anything by Pat Pctor Lejon like anything where they Pctor Lejon like anything where they Pctor Lejon like anything where they talk about what a great leader is they talk about what a great leader is they talk about what a great leader is they always talk about humility humility always talk about humility humility always talk about humility humility paired with something because when paired with something because when paired with something because when you're in the workplace you don't want you're in the workplace you don't want you're in the workplace you don't want to work with someone who doesn't know to work with someone who doesn't know to work with someone who doesn't know what they're good at that's called what they're good at that's called what they're good at that's called incompetence incompetence incompetence yeah humble but but useless right so yeah humble but but useless right so yeah humble but but useless right so it's not really humble it's because a it's not really humble it's because a it's not really humble it's because a humility is I know what I'm good at I'm humility is I know what I'm good at I'm humility is I know what I'm good at I'm not afraid of what I'm good at. I'm just not afraid of what I'm good at. I'm just not afraid of what I'm good at. I'm just not distracted by it. And also humility not distracted by it. And also humility not distracted by it. And also humility is I know where my weaknesses are and is I know where my weaknesses are and is I know where my weaknesses are and I'm not letting those get in the way I'm not letting those get in the way I'm not letting those get in the way either. Like because that that's not the either. Like because that that's not the either. Like because that that's not the focus. The focus is gratitude, right? So focus. The focus is gratitude, right? So focus. The focus is gratitude, right? So humility is not a distraction with your humility is not a distraction with your humility is not a distraction with your strengths or your weaknesses, but

strengths or your weaknesses, but strengths or your weaknesses, but gratitude for the opportunities gratitude for the opportunities gratitude for the opportunities presented. That's the first thing. The presented. That's the first thing. The presented. That's the first thing. The second thing is that humility has to do second thing is that humility has to do second thing is that humility has to do with lifelong learning. You think about with lifelong learning. You think about with lifelong learning. You think about how someone who's humble knows there's how someone who's humble knows there's how someone who's humble knows there's always more to learn. And always more to learn. And always more to learn. And diagnostically, you can go to each of diagnostically, you can go to each of diagnostically, you can go to each of these components and say, "Okay, where these components and say, "Okay, where these components and say, "Okay, where am I fitting in this?" Diagnostically, am I fitting in this?" Diagnostically, am I fitting in this?" Diagnostically, that means that you're not defensive in that means that you're not defensive in that means that you're not defensive in meetings where someone has a different meetings where someone has a different meetings where someone has a different idea. Because a humble person knows idea. Because a humble person knows idea. Because a humble person knows there's always more to learn. A humble there's always more to learn. A humble there's always more to learn. A humble person has no problem delegating and person has no problem delegating and person has no problem delegating and saying, "You know what? I could do this. saying, "You know what? I could do this. saying, "You know what? I could do this. I might even do it better, but I'm going I might even do it better, but I'm going I might even do it better, but I'm going to give it to this other person because to give it to this other person because to give it to this other person because I don't have to do it. I don't have to do it. I don't have to do it. I'm I'm going to I'm going to do figure I'm I'm going to I'm going to do figure I'm I'm going to I'm going to do figure this out. So, the ability to know your this out. So, the ability to know your this out. So, the ability to know your strengths and weaknesses and not be strengths and weaknesses and not be strengths and weaknesses and not be distracted by either, but be motivated distracted by either, but be motivated distracted by either, but be motivated from a place of gratitude. Gratitude is from a place of gratitude. Gratitude is from a place of gratitude. Gratitude is that key there. Being a lifelong that key there. Being a lifelong that key there. Being a lifelong learner, someone who values that. I learner, someone who values that. I learner, someone who values that. I think in the church especially, we can think in the church especially, we can think in the church especially, we can get used to the rhythm and the culture get used to the rhythm and the culture get used to the rhythm and the culture so that we think we've got it all so that we think we've got it all so that we think we've got it all figured figured figured out. We have to keep learning.

out. We have to keep learning. out. We have to keep learning. We have to keep learning. That third We have to keep learning. That third We have to keep learning. That third part of humility is the ability to walk part of humility is the ability to walk part of humility is the ability to walk away. And that's where Sabbath is. So, away. And that's where Sabbath is. So, away. And that's where Sabbath is. So, not all the time, not like in a in a um, not all the time, not like in a in a um, not all the time, not like in a in a um, you know, irresponsible way, but in the you know, irresponsible way, but in the you know, irresponsible way, but in the ability to say, you know what, I have to ability to say, you know what, I have to ability to say, you know what, I have to take a break. As many theologians have take a break. As many theologians have take a break. As many theologians have noted, the first thing that God called noted, the first thing that God called noted, the first thing that God called holy in the Bible was Sabbath rest. He holy in the Bible was Sabbath rest. He holy in the Bible was Sabbath rest. He did it. It's actually a gift that we get did it. It's actually a gift that we get did it. It's actually a gift that we get to do it. And you know what's to do it. And you know what's to do it. And you know what's interesting? This is kind of a side interesting? This is kind of a side interesting? This is kind of a side tangent because I could talk about tangent because I could talk about tangent because I could talk about Sabbath all day long. Sabbath all day long. Sabbath all day long. Um, I know that people like to pair Um, I know that people like to pair Um, I know that people like to pair Sabbath and solitude and they do often Sabbath and solitude and they do often Sabbath and solitude and they do often go together, but Sabbath is also a go together, but Sabbath is also a go together, but Sabbath is also a relational relational relational act, right? You're talking about like act, right? You're talking about like act, right? You're talking about like Sabbath dinners, that kind of thing. Sabbath dinners, that kind of thing. Sabbath dinners, that kind of thing. Sabbath dinners, being with community in Sabbath dinners, being with community in Sabbath dinners, being with community in a way that reminds you to look up and a way that reminds you to look up and a way that reminds you to look up and look out and take a breath. And I think, look out and take a breath. And I think, look out and take a breath. And I think, you know, I I remember when I was you know, I I remember when I was you know, I I remember when I was Sabbath as a single person, I really was Sabbath as a single person, I really was Sabbath as a single person, I really was lonely all the time because I had a the lonely all the time because I had a the lonely all the time because I had a the wrong idea of what Sabbath was. And you wrong idea of what Sabbath was. And you wrong idea of what Sabbath was. And you mentioned Annie FD Downs. She says the mentioned Annie FD Downs. She says the mentioned Annie FD Downs. She says the same thing as a single woman. She's like same thing as a single woman. She's like same thing as a single woman. She's like the pastor might say, "All right, just the pastor might say, "All right, just the pastor might say, "All right, just go home, turn off your phones, and you go home, turn off your phones, and you go home, turn off your phones, and you know, don't go out of your house." And know, don't go out of your house." And know, don't go out of your house." And she's like, "Well, as a single person, she's like, "Well, as a single person, she's like, "Well, as a single person, that's a death sentence." It is a death that's a death sentence." It is a death that's a death sentence." It is a death sentence. So, you may want to say, sentence. So, you may want to say, sentence. So, you may want to say, "Actually, connect with your friends and "Actually, connect with your friends and "Actually, connect with your friends and do something off the grid with them and do something off the grid with them and do something off the grid with them and build community and celebrate." Yes. And build community and celebrate." Yes. And build community and celebrate." Yes. And my tendency when I was single was to my tendency when I was single was to my tendency when I was single was to overchedule because I was so afraid of overchedule because I was so afraid of overchedule because I was so afraid of being lonely. And so, learning, okay, being lonely. And so, learning, okay, being lonely. And so, learning, okay, who of my friends gives me life? Yeah.

who of my friends gives me life? Yeah. who of my friends gives me life? Yeah. and I need to pursue those people that and I need to pursue those people that and I need to pursue those people that day. Um, now as a as a young family with day. Um, now as a as a young family with day. Um, now as a as a young family with a young kid, Sabbathing looks very a young kid, Sabbathing looks very a young kid, Sabbathing looks very different because we are always busy and different because we are always busy and different because we are always busy and we are always active. And so remembering we are always active. And so remembering we are always active. And so remembering that Sabbath might include physical that Sabbath might include physical that Sabbath might include physical rest, but really what it's about is rest, but really what it's about is rest, but really what it's about is emotional, spiritual, mental renewal. emotional, spiritual, mental renewal. emotional, spiritual, mental renewal. And there's a lot of ways that you can And there's a lot of ways that you can And there's a lot of ways that you can do that. I remember when my husband and do that. I remember when my husband and do that. I remember when my husband and I came across two different texts that I came across two different texts that I came across two different texts that really changed the way we Sabbath. One really changed the way we Sabbath. One really changed the way we Sabbath. One is Gary Thomas's Sacred Pathways where is Gary Thomas's Sacred Pathways where is Gary Thomas's Sacred Pathways where you learn about the nine different ways. you learn about the nine different ways. you learn about the nine different ways. Love that book so much. Um the other one Love that book so much. Um the other one Love that book so much. Um the other one though is just it's a it's an article though is just it's a it's an article though is just it's a it's an article and I believe a talk through TED by and I believe a talk through TED by and I believe a talk through TED by Dalton Smith, Dr. Dalton Smith on the Dalton Smith, Dr. Dalton Smith on the Dalton Smith, Dr. Dalton Smith on the seven types of rest. And I think part of seven types of rest. And I think part of seven types of rest. And I think part of we've kind of taken a westernized we've kind of taken a westernized we've kind of taken a westernized cultural approach to rest that sometimes cultural approach to rest that sometimes cultural approach to rest that sometimes gets it wrong. You know, for some people gets it wrong. You know, for some people gets it wrong. You know, for some people rest is contemplative. That is me. I'm a rest is contemplative. That is me. I'm a rest is contemplative. That is me. I'm a contemplative. I like to be in nature contemplative. I like to be in nature contemplative. I like to be in nature and I like to sort of slow down. But my and I like to sort of slow down. But my and I like to sort of slow down. But my husband anagram 3 that would be a like a husband anagram 3 that would be a like a husband anagram 3 that would be a like a punishment for him. He needs to play. He punishment for him. He needs to play. He punishment for him. He needs to play. He needs to have a sense of play and fun needs to have a sense of play and fun needs to have a sense of play and fun and and active achievement that's like and and active achievement that's like and and active achievement that's like playful. And so those seven types of playful. And so those seven types of playful. And so those seven types of rest will help you determine where are rest will help you determine where are rest will help you determine where are you feeling the most depleted. Do you you feeling the most depleted. Do you you feeling the most depleted. Do you have do you need sensory rest? Do you have do you need sensory rest? Do you have do you need sensory rest? Do you need creative rest? um what kind of rest need creative rest? um what kind of rest need creative rest? um what kind of rest do you need to do in that moment? So all do you need to do in that moment? So all do you need to do in that moment? So all that to say, humility involves the that to say, humility involves the that to say, humility involves the ability to take a break and know that if

ability to take a break and know that if ability to take a break and know that if you walk away, if everything falls you walk away, if everything falls you walk away, if everything falls apart, I mean, in Jim Collins's favorite apart, I mean, in Jim Collins's favorite apart, I mean, in Jim Collins's favorite famous book, Good to Great, he famous book, Good to Great, he famous book, Good to Great, he distinguishes between a good leader and distinguishes between a good leader and distinguishes between a good leader and a great leader, one of the a great leader, one of the a great leader, one of the distinguishing factors is a good leader, distinguishing factors is a good leader, distinguishing factors is a good leader, if they walk away, the organization if they walk away, the organization if they walk away, the organization falls apart. It's great when they're falls apart. It's great when they're falls apart. It's great when they're there, but if they walk away, nobody there, but if they walk away, nobody there, but if they walk away, nobody knows what to do really. But a great knows what to do really. But a great knows what to do really. But a great leader, if they take a moment, take a leader, if they take a moment, take a leader, if they take a moment, take a break, everything works just fine. break, everything works just fine. break, everything works just fine. Because people know who they are, they Because people know who they are, they Because people know who they are, they know what their roles are, they know know what their roles are, they know know what their roles are, they know what to do. There's a shared trust to what to do. There's a shared trust to what to do. There's a shared trust to keep going. So the opposite of humility keep going. So the opposite of humility keep going. So the opposite of humility is pride. And I've heard it said that is pride. And I've heard it said that is pride. And I've heard it said that pride and greed are the hardest things pride and greed are the hardest things pride and greed are the hardest things to see in the mirror. You ask a greedy to see in the mirror. You ask a greedy to see in the mirror. You ask a greedy person, "Are you greedy?" They're not person, "Are you greedy?" They're not person, "Are you greedy?" They're not greedy. I'm not proud. Right? Like greedy. I'm not proud. Right? Like greedy. I'm not proud. Right? Like that's really hard to see. that's really hard to see. that's really hard to see. uh you've already hinted at the inverse uh you've already hinted at the inverse uh you've already hinted at the inverse with the three aspects of with the three aspects of with the three aspects of humility, but just for leaders who who humility, but just for leaders who who humility, but just for leaders who who may be uncertain, what are some signs may be uncertain, what are some signs may be uncertain, what are some signs that maybe pride is an issue? And that's that maybe pride is an issue? And that's that maybe pride is an issue? And that's a live issue for me. I'm working with my a live issue for me. I'm working with my a live issue for me. I'm working with my therapist right now on some signs of therapist right now on some signs of therapist right now on some signs of pride that I probably didn't think were pride that I probably didn't think were pride that I probably didn't think were present in my life that are very present present in my life that are very present present in my life that are very present in my life. So, it's a very uh live in my life. So, it's a very uh live in my life. So, it's a very uh live topic. So, hence the question. I think topic. So, hence the question. I think topic. So, hence the question. I think it's a constant topic. Good for you for it's a constant topic. Good for you for it's a constant topic. Good for you for for talking. Listen, it's not fun. I for talking. Listen, it's not fun. I for talking. Listen, it's not fun. I didn't say it was fun, Ariana. No, it's didn't say it was fun, Ariana. No, it's didn't say it was fun, Ariana. No, it's definitely not enjoying this, but it is definitely not enjoying this, but it is definitely not enjoying this, but it is perhaps necessary.

perhaps necessary. perhaps necessary. I think some of the signs of pride. So I think some of the signs of pride. So I think some of the signs of pride. So again, if you were to look at that again, if you were to look at that again, if you were to look at that diagnostically of humility and you take diagnostically of humility and you take diagnostically of humility and you take to take the inverse, that first part of to take the inverse, that first part of to take the inverse, that first part of humility is not being distracted by your humility is not being distracted by your humility is not being distracted by your strengths or weaknesses. So one face of strengths or weaknesses. So one face of strengths or weaknesses. So one face of pride you know um pride is the greatest pride you know um pride is the greatest pride you know um pride is the greatest vice and and theologians talk about the vice and and theologians talk about the vice and and theologians talk about the sort of the birthplace of that well sort of the birthplace of that well sort of the birthplace of that well humility is known as the mother of all humility is known as the mother of all humility is known as the mother of all virtues and so uh one question would be virtues and so uh one question would be virtues and so uh one question would be am I really distracted right now by my am I really distracted right now by my am I really distracted right now by my by what I can contribute am I like by what I can contribute am I like by what I can contribute am I like feeling like I'm the only one that can feeling like I'm the only one that can feeling like I'm the only one that can do this or on the flip side am I so do this or on the flip side am I so do this or on the flip side am I so consumed with all my mistakes right now consumed with all my mistakes right now consumed with all my mistakes right now I tend to be that one like I tend to be I tend to be that one like I tend to be I tend to be that one like I tend to be overly aware of what I'm not doing well overly aware of what I'm not doing well overly aware of what I'm not doing well um that it's getting in away that I'm um that it's getting in away that I'm um that it's getting in away that I'm operating from a place of insecurity or operating from a place of insecurity or operating from a place of insecurity or scarcity. That would be one way. This is scarcity. That would be one way. This is scarcity. That would be one way. This is not I like that sign because it's not so not I like that sign because it's not so not I like that sign because it's not so much a look at how great I am or look at much a look at how great I am or look at much a look at how great I am or look at how many views I got or look how full how many views I got or look how full how many views I got or look how full the room is, which is classic like the room is, which is classic like the room is, which is classic like almost narcissistic. Yeah. But what almost narcissistic. Yeah. But what almost narcissistic. Yeah. But what you're talking about here is I've got to you're talking about here is I've got to you're talking about here is I've got to keep contributing. I'm needed. Like that keep contributing. I'm needed. Like that keep contributing. I'm needed. Like that can be a sign. And absolutely. I'm the can be a sign. And absolutely. I'm the can be a sign. And absolutely. I'm the only one I'm the only one who can do only one I'm the only one who can do only one I'm the only one who can do this. Why does this always come to me? I this. Why does this always come to me? I this. Why does this always come to me? I can or or I can do this. Other people can or or I can do this. Other people can or or I can do this. Other people they they have too much going on and but they they have too much going on and but they they have too much going on and but I can do this. This is me. I can do I can do this. This is me. I can do I can do this. This is me. I can do this. I have these skill sets. I can this. I have these skill sets. I can this. I have these skill sets. I can step in here. And it feels so good. I step in here. And it feels so good. I step in here. And it feels so good. I mean, you know, by the way, when we were mean, you know, by the way, when we were mean, you know, by the way, when we were talking about workcoholism earlier, talking about workcoholism earlier, talking about workcoholism earlier, research shows that they're the ones research shows that they're the ones research shows that they're the ones that get more opportunities in work, that get more opportunities in work, that get more opportunities in work, right? Yeah. You get a raise and a right? Yeah. You get a raise and a right? Yeah. You get a raise and a promotion, right? Workaholics.

promotion, right? Workaholics. promotion, right? Workaholics. Workaholics. Yeah. Yeah. And Okay, Workaholics. Yeah. Yeah. And Okay, Workaholics. Yeah. Yeah. And Okay, that's helpful. Any other signs for that's helpful. Any other signs for that's helpful. Any other signs for pride? Because it is invisible. Yeah, it pride? Because it is invisible. Yeah, it pride? Because it is invisible. Yeah, it is so invisible and it can masquerade on is so invisible and it can masquerade on is so invisible and it can masquerade on the side of ego or insecurity. So both the side of ego or insecurity. So both the side of ego or insecurity. So both of those are signs of pride. So the of those are signs of pride. So the of those are signs of pride. So the second one would be learning. So second one would be learning. So second one would be learning. So thinking about am I really unwilling to thinking about am I really unwilling to thinking about am I really unwilling to take time for questions in my meetings? take time for questions in my meetings? take time for questions in my meetings? Have I allowed space for other people to Have I allowed space for other people to Have I allowed space for other people to brainstorm or have other ideas? Am I brainstorm or have other ideas? Am I brainstorm or have other ideas? Am I impatiently making choices because I impatiently making choices because I impatiently making choices because I don't want to deal with any more ideas? don't want to deal with any more ideas? don't want to deal with any more ideas? And certainly there's decision fatigue And certainly there's decision fatigue And certainly there's decision fatigue and you can't include everybody all the and you can't include everybody all the and you can't include everybody all the time, but has the ability to learn gone time, but has the ability to learn gone time, but has the ability to learn gone out the window? I would even say in this out the window? I would even say in this out the window? I would even say in this day and age when there's so much going day and age when there's so much going day and age when there's so much going on like socially and politically and on like socially and politically and on like socially and politically and everything, am I only choosing one everything, am I only choosing one everything, am I only choosing one person to listen to because I'm just too person to listen to because I'm just too person to listen to because I'm just too tired to listen to multiple ideas? That tired to listen to multiple ideas? That tired to listen to multiple ideas? That can get dangerous. can get dangerous. can get dangerous. We need to cross reference what we're We need to cross reference what we're We need to cross reference what we're learning. We need to take some time. I learning. We need to take some time. I learning. We need to take some time. I think also being a student is a very think also being a student is a very think also being a student is a very vulnerable thing. As a professor, I vulnerable thing. As a professor, I vulnerable thing. As a professor, I sometimes try to place myself in the sometimes try to place myself in the sometimes try to place myself in the role of student by taking a class or role of student by taking a class or role of student by taking a class or learning something new. And my goodness, learning something new. And my goodness, learning something new. And my goodness, having to learn something new, realizing having to learn something new, realizing having to learn something new, realizing you don't know it, being messy, being a you don't know it, being messy, being a you don't know it, being messy, being a beginner is very vulnerable. Well, and beginner is very vulnerable. Well, and beginner is very vulnerable. Well, and being the senior leader, people come to being the senior leader, people come to being the senior leader, people come to you for answers. So you can very easily you for answers. So you can very easily you for answers. So you can very easily become the answer machine, the expert become the answer machine, the expert become the answer machine, the expert and that just calcifies your thinking to

and that just calcifies your thinking to and that just calcifies your thinking to the point, well of course I know the the point, well of course I know the the point, well of course I know the answers and yeah okay and it can feel answers and yeah okay and it can feel answers and yeah okay and it can feel good to know the answers. It can feel good to know the answers. It can feel good to know the answers. It can feel really good to be the person that people really good to be the person that people really good to be the person that people go to. There's five types of social go to. There's five types of social go to. There's five types of social power when we're talking about power. power when we're talking about power. power when we're talking about power. And the first two are just really easy. And the first two are just really easy. And the first two are just really easy. That's reward or coercion. So when That's reward or coercion. So when That's reward or coercion. So when you're in a position of power, you have you're in a position of power, you have you're in a position of power, you have the ability to be like, I can do this the ability to be like, I can do this the ability to be like, I can do this for you or I can take this away. So for you or I can take this away. So for you or I can take this away. So those are very easy. But the other three those are very easy. But the other three those are very easy. But the other three types, there's one that's expert power. types, there's one that's expert power. types, there's one that's expert power. And so you're the person people come to. And so you're the person people come to. And so you're the person people come to. There's reference power, which is like There's reference power, which is like There's reference power, which is like likability and charisma. So you have likability and charisma. So you have likability and charisma. So you have power by just that social like that woo power by just that social like that woo power by just that social like that woo factor. And then there's legitimate factor. And then there's legitimate factor. And then there's legitimate power, which is the title that you hold. power, which is the title that you hold. power, which is the title that you hold. And by the way, the least powerful of And by the way, the least powerful of And by the way, the least powerful of all five of those is legitimate power on all five of those is legitimate power on all five of those is legitimate power on its own. It has very little power. Um its own. It has very little power. Um its own. It has very little power. Um because people can see right away if you because people can see right away if you because people can see right away if you can back that up with something else. can back that up with something else. can back that up with something else. Expert power often has the most followed Expert power often has the most followed Expert power often has the most followed with reference or charisma. So, I think with reference or charisma. So, I think with reference or charisma. So, I think that someone who's in danger of being that someone who's in danger of being that someone who's in danger of being overtaken by pride needs to be careful overtaken by pride needs to be careful overtaken by pride needs to be careful um how much they value their ability to um how much they value their ability to um how much they value their ability to be the one people go to as always be the one people go to as always be the one people go to as always knowing what's right. Do you love being knowing what's right. Do you love being knowing what's right. Do you love being the expert? Do you love Yeah.

the expert? Do you love Yeah. the expert? Do you love Yeah. And it's not that you can't enjoy that And it's not that you can't enjoy that And it's not that you can't enjoy that quality about yourself, but finding quality about yourself, but finding quality about yourself, but finding places in your life that almost force places in your life that almost force places in your life that almost force you to be a student. I mean, even you to be a student. I mean, even you to be a student. I mean, even Carrie, as you invite us on here, people Carrie, as you invite us on here, people Carrie, as you invite us on here, people to come and share ideas, you're learning to come and share ideas, you're learning to come and share ideas, you're learning along the way as well. You're providing along the way as well. You're providing along the way as well. You're providing your expertise, but you're learning. your expertise, but you're learning. your expertise, but you're learning. That's a really great healthy place to That's a really great healthy place to That's a really great healthy place to be. Um, yeah, just a just a question for be. Um, yeah, just a just a question for be. Um, yeah, just a just a question for you. Like in my personal life after you. Like in my personal life after you. Like in my personal life after burnout, which was almost 20 years ago burnout, which was almost 20 years ago burnout, which was almost 20 years ago now, I've been trying to cultivate new now, I've been trying to cultivate new now, I've been trying to cultivate new hobbies. So, 10 years ago, it was hobbies. So, 10 years ago, it was hobbies. So, 10 years ago, it was barbecue, which I love. It's it's great. barbecue, which I love. It's it's great. barbecue, which I love. It's it's great. Still trying to, you know, perfect ribs. Still trying to, you know, perfect ribs. Still trying to, you know, perfect ribs. But uh I picked up calligraphy uh as But uh I picked up calligraphy uh as But uh I picked up calligraphy uh as just something like I know nothing just something like I know nothing just something like I know nothing about. Can't even hold a pen properly. about. Can't even hold a pen properly. about. Can't even hold a pen properly. Can barely read my own writing. So I'm Can barely read my own writing. So I'm Can barely read my own writing. So I'm studying that this year. A couple years studying that this year. A couple years studying that this year. A couple years ago took up skiing again from the first ago took up skiing again from the first ago took up skiing again from the first for the first time since my kids were for the first time since my kids were for the first time since my kids were little. My wife and I go skiing. Can little. My wife and I go skiing. Can little. My wife and I go skiing. Can like putting yourself into places even like putting yourself into places even like putting yourself into places even in life where you're the beginner in the in life where you're the beginner in the in life where you're the beginner in the class be a helpful way of combating class be a helpful way of combating class be a helpful way of combating pride? 100%. I'm gonna high-five you pride? 100%. I'm gonna high-five you pride? 100%. I'm gonna high-five you across the screen right now because that across the screen right now because that across the screen right now because that is so awesome. So, there was this one is so awesome. So, there was this one is so awesome. So, there was this one doctor that I interviewed who felt doctor that I interviewed who felt doctor that I interviewed who felt called a primary care doctor and I called a primary care doctor and I called a primary care doctor and I remember going into his office and I remember going into his office and I remember going into his office and I was, you know, had one of those offices was, you know, had one of those offices was, you know, had one of those offices where there was just super messy but he where there was just super messy but he where there was just super messy but he knew where everything was, you know, and knew where everything was, you know, and knew where everything was, you know, and there were drawings on the wall from his there were drawings on the wall from his there were drawings on the wall from his grandkids which he delighted in so much.

grandkids which he delighted in so much. grandkids which he delighted in so much. But there was also a certificate. Um, But there was also a certificate. Um, But there was also a certificate. Um, and I asked him about it. And I asked and I asked him about it. And I asked and I asked him about it. And I asked him in relation to something else, you him in relation to something else, you him in relation to something else, you know, how do you what do you do on a bad know, how do you what do you do on a bad know, how do you what do you do on a bad day? When you feel called and you've had day? When you feel called and you've had day? When you feel called and you've had a bad day, what do you do? And he began a bad day, what do you do? And he began a bad day, what do you do? And he began telling me a story that he actually telling me a story that he actually telling me a story that he actually started taking Italian classes at a started taking Italian classes at a started taking Italian classes at a community college. And um, he took this community college. And um, he took this community college. And um, he took this little certificate off the wall and it little certificate off the wall and it little certificate off the wall and it was a frame that said most improved was a frame that said most improved was a frame that said most improved student. and he was just so delighted student. and he was just so delighted student. and he was just so delighted with himself that he had grown in this with himself that he had grown in this with himself that he had grown in this community college class. And he said, "I community college class. And he said, "I community college class. And he said, "I take my superhero cape off. I take my take my superhero cape off. I take my take my superhero cape off. I take my doctor coat off and I go for a walk with doctor coat off and I go for a walk with doctor coat off and I go for a walk with my wife and I take classes at a my wife and I take classes at a my wife and I take classes at a community college and I spend time with community college and I spend time with community college and I spend time with my grandkids. I try not to take it all my grandkids. I try not to take it all my grandkids. I try not to take it all too seriously." So, I do think one of too seriously." So, I do think one of too seriously." So, I do think one of the ways to protect yourself is to f the ways to protect yourself is to f the ways to protect yourself is to f always be a student somewhere in your always be a student somewhere in your always be a student somewhere in your life. That's excellent. Okay, there's a life. That's excellent. Okay, there's a life. That's excellent. Okay, there's a term I've got to get to before we wrap term I've got to get to before we wrap term I've got to get to before we wrap up. Boundary shaming. Uhhuh. What is up. Boundary shaming. Uhhuh. What is up. Boundary shaming. Uhhuh. What is boundary shaming? How do leaders do it?

boundary shaming? How do leaders do it? boundary shaming? How do leaders do it? Oh gosh. So, this is a phenomenon that I Oh gosh. So, this is a phenomenon that I Oh gosh. So, this is a phenomenon that I sort of gave a name to when I was sort of gave a name to when I was sort of gave a name to when I was studying this. And boundary shaming is studying this. And boundary shaming is studying this. And boundary shaming is when you are being asked to do more than when you are being asked to do more than when you are being asked to do more than what you've signed up for. So be let's what you've signed up for. So be let's what you've signed up for. So be let's be very clear. You're doing your job. be very clear. You're doing your job. be very clear. You're doing your job. You're doing all the tasks that you've You're doing all the tasks that you've You're doing all the tasks that you've been asked to do. Nothing is being um been asked to do. Nothing is being um been asked to do. Nothing is being um you know ignored or or forgotten. You're you know ignored or or forgotten. You're you know ignored or or forgotten. You're doing your job. But when you're asked to doing your job. But when you're asked to doing your job. But when you're asked to do do do more with the understanding that if you more with the understanding that if you more with the understanding that if you don't, you're not a team player. If you don't, you're not a team player. If you don't, you're not a team player. If you don't, um, you might not be the person don't, um, you might not be the person don't, um, you might not be the person people call on next time. It's it's when people call on next time. It's it's when people call on next time. It's it's when someone else puts their own capacity for someone else puts their own capacity for someone else puts their own capacity for work on you as if it should be what it work on you as if it should be what it work on you as if it should be what it is for all people. Isn't that every is for all people. Isn't that every is for all people. Isn't that every church and every nonprofit, Ariana? church and every nonprofit, Ariana? church and every nonprofit, Ariana? Well, maybe. Yes. Well, maybe. Yes. Well, maybe. Yes. And so the the problem is it often is And so the the problem is it often is And so the the problem is it often is what is it's a micro discourse. And so what is it's a micro discourse. And so what is it's a micro discourse. And so it happens often in small ways that are it happens often in small ways that are it happens often in small ways that are hard to spot. And so it makes it harder hard to spot. And so it makes it harder hard to spot. And so it makes it harder to respond with boundaries. And town and to respond with boundaries. And town and to respond with boundaries. And town and clowns are like or cloud and towns in clowns are like or cloud and towns in clowns are like or cloud and towns in are um merging those um are of course are um merging those um are of course are um merging those um are of course the leaders in talking about boundaries.

the leaders in talking about boundaries. the leaders in talking about boundaries. But boundaries essentially are when you But boundaries essentially are when you But boundaries essentially are when you remember who you are and what you value remember who you are and what you value remember who you are and what you value and you live that out. So pre-burnout me and you live that out. So pre-burnout me and you live that out. So pre-burnout me was a very different person than was a very different person than was a very different person than postburnout me. There's still relics and postburnout me. There's still relics and postburnout me. There's still relics and remnants, but I remember remnants, but I remember remnants, but I remember uh this probably a year or two after uh this probably a year or two after uh this probably a year or two after burnout. I was very guilty of that. Like burnout. I was very guilty of that. Like burnout. I was very guilty of that. Like if you weren't allin and you weren't if you weren't allin and you weren't if you weren't allin and you weren't available, not 24/7, but maybe 14 hours available, not 24/7, but maybe 14 hours available, not 24/7, but maybe 14 hours a day, like come on. This is the a day, like come on. This is the a day, like come on. This is the mission. So that's one of the reasons I mission. So that's one of the reasons I mission. So that's one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation with wanted to have this conversation with wanted to have this conversation with you is I recognized myself in the you is I recognized myself in the you is I recognized myself in the problem. But I remember one day I was problem. But I remember one day I was problem. But I remember one day I was texting uh someone on a Saturday morning texting uh someone on a Saturday morning texting uh someone on a Saturday morning because you know as a leader your ideas because you know as a leader your ideas because you know as a leader your ideas come without regard for the clock and I come without regard for the clock and I come without regard for the clock and I remember her she was my director of remember her she was my director of remember her she was my director of operations XP and I remember she was operations XP and I remember she was operations XP and I remember she was saying are we ever going to get a saying are we ever going to get a saying are we ever going to get a Saturday not to talk about church? Saturday not to talk about church? Saturday not to talk about church? Yeah. Well good for her for saying that. Yeah. Well good for her for saying that. Yeah. Well good for her for saying that. And that was like 15 years ago. It was And that was like 15 years ago. It was And that was like 15 years ago. It was very paradigm shifting for me. And now very paradigm shifting for me. And now very paradigm shifting for me. And now we have very strict boundaries. But I we have very strict boundaries. But I we have very strict boundaries. But I still see that as very common and in in still see that as very common and in in still see that as very common and in in the church. So let's talk to people who the church. So let's talk to people who the church. So let's talk to people who are not the senior leader, who are being are not the senior leader, who are being are not the senior leader, who are being boundary shamed, who are getting the boundary shamed, who are getting the boundary shamed, who are getting the 8:00 p.m. texts every other night uh the 8:00 p.m. texts every other night uh the 8:00 p.m. texts every other night uh the weekend. Oh, I just had a new idea for a weekend. Oh, I just had a new idea for a weekend. Oh, I just had a new idea for a great new direction on the sermon great new direction on the sermon great new direction on the sermon Saturday at noon. and that interrupted Saturday at noon. and that interrupted Saturday at noon. and that interrupted their day with their family. What do you their day with their family. What do you their day with their family. What do you do if you are the person on the do if you are the person on the do if you are the person on the receiving end of the boundary shaming?

receiving end of the boundary shaming? receiving end of the boundary shaming? First of all, I'm sorry when you're on First of all, I'm sorry when you're on First of all, I'm sorry when you're on the receiving end. It's a hard place to the receiving end. It's a hard place to the receiving end. It's a hard place to be. I've been there and it's confusing. be. I've been there and it's confusing. be. I've been there and it's confusing. Part of the boundary shaming process is Part of the boundary shaming process is Part of the boundary shaming process is that you so desperately want to that you so desperately want to that you so desperately want to contribute and you believe in the cause contribute and you believe in the cause contribute and you believe in the cause and you want to prove yourself. And and you want to prove yourself. And and you want to prove yourself. And depending on where you are in the job depending on where you are in the job depending on where you are in the job ladder, um if you're especially if ladder, um if you're especially if ladder, um if you're especially if you're new, there's also this mentality you're new, there's also this mentality you're new, there's also this mentality that you have to work hard and work that you have to work hard and work that you have to work hard and work more. Again, this happens a lot with more. Again, this happens a lot with more. Again, this happens a lot with people who are single because the people who are single because the people who are single because the assumption is they have all this extra assumption is they have all this extra assumption is they have all this extra time. You don't have a life. That's time. You don't have a life. That's time. You don't have a life. That's right. Which is a terrible terrible. I right. Which is a terrible terrible. I right. Which is a terrible terrible. I remember um being asked to do all this remember um being asked to do all this remember um being asked to do all this stuff and then someone else was also stuff and then someone else was also stuff and then someone else was also asked and they said I have to go home to asked and they said I have to go home to asked and they said I have to go home to my spouse and I wanted to be like I have my spouse and I wanted to be like I have my spouse and I wanted to be like I have to go home to my ice cream. Like I to go home to my ice cream. Like I to go home to my ice cream. Like I wanted to figure out a way to be like I wanted to figure out a way to be like I wanted to figure out a way to be like I also need to go home, you know? Yeah. also need to go home, you know? Yeah. also need to go home, you know? Yeah. Um, so I would say first see if you can Um, so I would say first see if you can Um, so I would say first see if you can ask for a ask for a ask for a values a values a values a valuebased meeting on a semi-regular valuebased meeting on a semi-regular valuebased meeting on a semi-regular basis like can you can you have a basis like can you can you have a basis like can you can you have a meeting to say all right can we revisit meeting to say all right can we revisit meeting to say all right can we revisit what are our values as a team what are what are our values as a team what are what are our values as a team what are the the the expectations how will I know if expectations how will I know if expectations how will I know if something is urgent so there's some something is urgent so there's some something is urgent so there's some people who feel like hey if I email you people who feel like hey if I email you people who feel like hey if I email you it's not urgent but if I text you it's it's not urgent but if I text you it's it's not urgent but if I text you it's urgent right there's these like yeah we urgent right there's these like yeah we urgent right there's these like yeah we have that in our company we have a have that in our company we have a have that in our company we have a hierarchy hierarchy hierarchy like it all sits in a sauna for a like it all sits in a sauna for a like it all sits in a sauna for a meeting and if it can't wait a week, it meeting and if it can't wait a week, it meeting and if it can't wait a week, it goes to Slack. If it's semi-urgent, you goes to Slack. If it's semi-urgent, you goes to Slack. If it's semi-urgent, you get a text during business hours. If get a text during business hours. If get a text during business hours. If it's a nuclear emergency, you get a it's a nuclear emergency, you get a it's a nuclear emergency, you get a phone call. I love that. So, I think phone call. I love that. So, I think phone call. I love that. So, I think having those markers to delineate having those markers to delineate having those markers to delineate between what is urgent and what isn't

between what is urgent and what isn't between what is urgent and what isn't might be an important place to start. might be an important place to start. might be an important place to start. Just ask some questions. Hey, I really I Just ask some questions. Hey, I really I Just ask some questions. Hey, I really I I want to attend to this. I see the I want to attend to this. I see the I want to attend to this. I see the value of it. Can we walk through the value of it. Can we walk through the value of it. Can we walk through the deadline pace or you know what are the deadline pace or you know what are the deadline pace or you know what are the expectations of this? Also, what are our expectations of this? Also, what are our expectations of this? Also, what are our values about this? Do we work past 6 values about this? Do we work past 6 values about this? Do we work past 6 p.m.? Yeah. You know, and what's really p.m.? Yeah. You know, and what's really p.m.? Yeah. You know, and what's really tricky and I know for myself a lot of tricky and I know for myself a lot of tricky and I know for myself a lot of times I don't have a chance to email times I don't have a chance to email times I don't have a chance to email people until like 11:00 at night people until like 11:00 at night people until like 11:00 at night because, you know, I've got this kid and because, you know, I've got this kid and because, you know, I've got this kid and I've got a spouse and some sick parents I've got a spouse and some sick parents I've got a spouse and some sick parents and all these other things. Um, but then and all these other things. Um, but then and all these other things. Um, but then you have to do that timed response or you have to do that timed response or you have to do that timed response or make a note for yourself and not send it make a note for yourself and not send it make a note for yourself and not send it until the next day, right? Or Yeah. like until the next day, right? Or Yeah. like until the next day, right? Or Yeah. like you say the timed response just in Gmail you say the timed response just in Gmail you say the timed response just in Gmail it's like send at 8 am the next morning it's like send at 8 am the next morning it's like send at 8 am the next morning you can do that in Slack too can I can I you can do that in Slack too can I can I you can do that in Slack too can I can I ask another question because right now ask another question because right now ask another question because right now we you know most some leaders would say we you know most some leaders would say we you know most some leaders would say well the mission I get it like don't well the mission I get it like don't well the mission I get it like don't text people every week after hours and text people every week after hours and text people every week after hours and that kind of thing but the mission is that kind of thing but the mission is that kind of thing but the mission is important and once in a while there are important and once in a while there are important and once in a while there are issues and I would say right now with issues and I would say right now with issues and I would say right now with our team if you interviewed my small our team if you interviewed my small our team if you interviewed my small team they would probably say a handful team they would probably say a handful team they would probably say a handful like literally one handful of times over like literally one handful of times over like literally one handful of times over the course of a year, I might get an the course of a year, I might get an the course of a year, I might get an evening or weekend text. Yes. Cool or evening or weekend text. Yes. Cool or evening or weekend text. Yes. Cool or not cool? Like if it's the exception, not cool? Like if it's the exception, not cool? Like if it's the exception, not the rule. Yeah, absolutely. Because not the rule. Yeah, absolutely. Because not the rule. Yeah, absolutely. Because the opposite is bureaucratic culture the opposite is bureaucratic culture the opposite is bureaucratic culture where it's, oh, it's 4:00 and we don't where it's, oh, it's 4:00 and we don't where it's, oh, it's 4:00 and we don't do anything after 4. And you know, I was do anything after 4. And you know, I was do anything after 4. And you know, I was doing a consulting gig with a group of doing a consulting gig with a group of doing a consulting gig with a group of people earlier this week and I was people earlier this week and I was people earlier this week and I was talking to the VP beforehand just to talking to the VP beforehand just to talking to the VP beforehand just to find out what his needs were and his

find out what his needs were and his find out what his needs were and his expectations were so I could understand expectations were so I could understand expectations were so I could understand some backstory. and he mentioned that a some backstory. and he mentioned that a some backstory. and he mentioned that a younger person on his staff um wasn't younger person on his staff um wasn't younger person on his staff um wasn't responding to emails as fast as he responding to emails as fast as he responding to emails as fast as he wanted. And so I said, "Well, have you wanted. And so I said, "Well, have you wanted. And so I said, "Well, have you talked about it?" And he said, "No." And talked about it?" And he said, "No." And talked about it?" And he said, "No." And I said, "You just we have to be really I said, "You just we have to be really I said, "You just we have to be really explicit about our expectations of explicit about our expectations of explicit about our expectations of communication return because if you're communication return because if you're communication return because if you're not explicit, that's when resentment and not explicit, that's when resentment and not explicit, that's when resentment and um frustration can occur. And so just um frustration can occur. And so just um frustration can occur. And so just saying, "Hey, um if you don't have time saying, "Hey, um if you don't have time saying, "Hey, um if you don't have time to respond to this, can you at least let to respond to this, can you at least let to respond to this, can you at least let me know that you saw it? Can you send me me know that you saw it? Can you send me me know that you saw it? Can you send me a note acknowledgement? Thanks for your a note acknowledgement? Thanks for your a note acknowledgement? Thanks for your email. I'll get back to you within 48 email. I'll get back to you within 48 email. I'll get back to you within 48 hours. Or thanks for your email. I'll hours. Or thanks for your email. I'll hours. Or thanks for your email. I'll get back to you on Monday. And just get back to you on Monday. And just get back to you on Monday. And just because So this actually goes to an because So this actually goes to an because So this actually goes to an interesting problem in the workplace as interesting problem in the workplace as interesting problem in the workplace as it relates to technology. About 70% of it relates to technology. About 70% of it relates to technology. About 70% of communication is non-verbal. Yeah. communication is non-verbal. Yeah. communication is non-verbal. Yeah. So, if we're not having a face-to-face So, if we're not having a face-to-face So, if we're not having a face-to-face conversation and it's through text or conversation and it's through text or conversation and it's through text or email, we've lost email, we've lost email, we've lost 70%. Which means we're only operating 70%. Which means we're only operating 70%. Which means we're only operating with a 30% capacity to understand the with a 30% capacity to understand the with a 30% capacity to understand the meaning. We don't have context. We don't meaning. We don't have context. We don't meaning. We don't have context. We don't have a a greater sense of intention. And have a a greater sense of intention. And have a a greater sense of intention. And so we have to be explicitly so we have to be explicitly so we have to be explicitly clear in emails and text and all sorts clear in emails and text and all sorts clear in emails and text and all sorts of other technological ways of of other technological ways of of other technological ways of communicating when we can't see and hear communicating when we can't see and hear communicating when we can't see and hear that other part of the communication.

that other part of the communication. that other part of the communication. You have to overcommunicate a lot. You have to overcommunicate a lot. You have to overcommunicate a lot. Overcommunication needs to be a good Overcommunication needs to be a good Overcommunication needs to be a good word. I I tell my staff when they on word. I I tell my staff when they on word. I I tell my staff when they on board the new ones, it's like uh you board the new ones, it's like uh you board the new ones, it's like uh you cannot overcommunicate and if you do, I cannot overcommunicate and if you do, I cannot overcommunicate and if you do, I will let you know. I do not remember the will let you know. I do not remember the will let you know. I do not remember the last time I had to let someone know. last time I had to let someone know. last time I had to let someone know. That's right. Overcommunicate. That's right. Overcommunicate. That's right. Overcommunicate. Overcommunicate. One fascinating Overcommunicate. One fascinating Overcommunicate. One fascinating finding, if I've got this right, is that finding, if I've got this right, is that finding, if I've got this right, is that I believe you say that those who I believe you say that those who I believe you say that those who identify with a calling but cannot identify with a calling but cannot identify with a calling but cannot pursue it have a higher incidence of pursue it have a higher incidence of pursue it have a higher incidence of depression than those who even never depression than those who even never depression than those who even never defined a calling. We've been talking defined a calling. We've been talking defined a calling. We've been talking about boundaries around calling, which about boundaries around calling, which about boundaries around calling, which is a big issue, I think, for most of the is a big issue, I think, for most of the is a big issue, I think, for most of the people in my audience because they're people in my audience because they're people in my audience because they're consumed by calling. Uh but if you feel consumed by calling. Uh but if you feel consumed by calling. Uh but if you feel a calling but can't pursue it, that a calling but can't pursue it, that a calling but can't pursue it, that results in depression. Can can you results in depression. Can can you results in depression. Can can you explain those findings? I mean, those explain those findings? I mean, those explain those findings? I mean, those aren't even my initial findings. The aren't even my initial findings. The aren't even my initial findings. The data backs this up across the board. data backs this up across the board. data backs this up across the board. Vocational psychologists did a variety Vocational psychologists did a variety Vocational psychologists did a variety of studies about that. Um and I have of studies about that. Um and I have of studies about that. Um and I have also seen that in my own interviews and also seen that in my own interviews and also seen that in my own interviews and research and data. But here's the research and data. But here's the research and data. But here's the problem. If you feel that pull, if you problem. If you feel that pull, if you problem. If you feel that pull, if you feel that longing, if you have feel that longing, if you have feel that longing, if you have identified the thirst to make an impact identified the thirst to make an impact identified the thirst to make an impact and you sense the need, but you're not and you sense the need, but you're not and you sense the need, but you're not able to do it, it is so awful. It's so able to do it, it is so awful. It's so able to do it, it is so awful. It's so awful. So, I I work with students who awful. So, I I work with students who awful. So, I I work with students who desperately want to know their calling.

desperately want to know their calling. desperately want to know their calling. You know, they're in college, they're You know, they're in college, they're You know, they're in college, they're like, I just want to know. I I actually like, I just want to know. I I actually like, I just want to know. I I actually teach a course, a senior course on teach a course, a senior course on teach a course, a senior course on communication and calling in the communication and calling in the communication and calling in the workplace. and we walk through this workplace. and we walk through this workplace. and we walk through this process and I tell them at the outset, process and I tell them at the outset, process and I tell them at the outset, you're not probably going to have any you're not probably going to have any you're not probably going to have any more clarity at the end of this time. more clarity at the end of this time. more clarity at the end of this time. Okay, great. I was gonna say, do we have Okay, great. I was gonna say, do we have Okay, great. I was gonna say, do we have time to talk about that today? But time to talk about that today? But time to talk about that today? But you'll have tools. You'll have tools to you'll have tools. You'll have tools to you'll have tools. You'll have tools to put on your tool belt so that when you put on your tool belt so that when you put on your tool belt so that when you walk through life, you'll know how to walk through life, you'll know how to walk through life, you'll know how to make sense of these things. make sense of these things. make sense of these things. um that longing to have a calling is um that longing to have a calling is um that longing to have a calling is very strong. But when you feel like very strong. But when you feel like very strong. But when you feel like you've had that and I've talked with you've had that and I've talked with you've had that and I've talked with many people and that sense of calling many people and that sense of calling many people and that sense of calling has been cut off either because they has been cut off either because they has been cut off either because they have to pay the bills and they didn't have to pay the bills and they didn't have to pay the bills and they didn't have the space to to do that anymore or have the space to to do that anymore or have the space to to do that anymore or they're caregiving in a certain way that they're caregiving in a certain way that they're caregiving in a certain way that doesn't allow for that and it is doesn't allow for that and it is doesn't allow for that and it is really really really hard. Yeah. It's really really really hard. Yeah. It's really really really hard. Yeah. It's that whole idea of Victor Frankl and that whole idea of Victor Frankl and that whole idea of Victor Frankl and everything just like your search for everything just like your search for everything just like your search for meaning, purpose, meaning, purpose, meaning, purpose, contribution. So, you know, I understand contribution. So, you know, I understand contribution. So, you know, I understand that that's a very, you know, any youth that that's a very, you know, any youth that that's a very, you know, any youth pastor listening or anyone who's got pastor listening or anyone who's got pastor listening or anyone who's got kids, what am I supposed to do with my kids, what am I supposed to do with my kids, what am I supposed to do with my life? What what has God called me to do?

life? What what has God called me to do? life? What what has God called me to do? Right? Those are very real questions. Right? Those are very real questions. Right? Those are very real questions. It's very, very real. I do think that It's very, very real. I do think that It's very, very real. I do think that the strategy of job crafting is very the strategy of job crafting is very the strategy of job crafting is very helpful. I don't know. Yeah. Can you helpful. I don't know. Yeah. Can you helpful. I don't know. Yeah. Can you explain that? Yeah. So job crafting is explain that? Yeah. So job crafting is explain that? Yeah. So job crafting is when you're doing a job that you either when you're doing a job that you either when you're doing a job that you either like or don't like but it you don't love like or don't like but it you don't love like or don't like but it you don't love and it doesn't feel like a calling but and it doesn't feel like a calling but and it doesn't feel like a calling but you so desperately want that. There are you so desperately want that. There are you so desperately want that. There are three things that you can do um in job three things that you can do um in job three things that you can do um in job crafting. The first is task crafting and crafting. The first is task crafting and crafting. The first is task crafting and that's where you look at all the tasks that's where you look at all the tasks that's where you look at all the tasks that you need to do and you decide is that you need to do and you decide is that you need to do and you decide is there one that you can either give to there one that you can either give to there one that you can either give to someone else that like really does not someone else that like really does not someone else that like really does not bring you life or is there something you bring you life or is there something you bring you life or is there something you can add and yes it would be more work can add and yes it would be more work can add and yes it would be more work but it actually gives you life. So but it actually gives you life. So but it actually gives you life. So that's a task crafting strategy. The that's a task crafting strategy. The that's a task crafting strategy. The relational crafting strategy is the relational crafting strategy is the relational crafting strategy is the second one and that's where you examine second one and that's where you examine second one and that's where you examine who am I spending time with in the who am I spending time with in the who am I spending time with in the workplace? What do my relational workplace? What do my relational workplace? What do my relational workplace um interactions look like? Are workplace um interactions look like? Are workplace um interactions look like? Are they people that bring me life? Um or they people that bring me life? Um or they people that bring me life? Um or are they people that bring me down? I are they people that bring me down? I are they people that bring me down? I mean, I remember being part of a a text mean, I remember being part of a a text mean, I remember being part of a a text thread where people needed a place to thread where people needed a place to thread where people needed a place to vent. And I get it. Like, that's a vent. And I get it. Like, that's a vent. And I get it. Like, that's a sacred space. But that venting turned sacred space. But that venting turned sacred space. But that venting turned into complaining. And for me personally, into complaining. And for me personally, into complaining. And for me personally, it was not healthy anymore. So, I needed it was not healthy anymore. So, I needed it was not healthy anymore. So, I needed to walk away from that. I remember when to walk away from that. I remember when to walk away from that. I remember when I was working at a church for a short I was working at a church for a short I was working at a church for a short time, um I shared a space with someone time, um I shared a space with someone time, um I shared a space with someone who was so negative. H just the gift of who was so negative. H just the gift of who was so negative. H just the gift of complaining. So, I literally had to be complaining. So, I literally had to be complaining. So, I literally had to be in my car during lunch just by myself in my car during lunch just by myself in my car during lunch just by myself and I'm an extrovert listening to like and I'm an extrovert listening to like and I'm an extrovert listening to like gospel music cuz I just needed some like gospel music cuz I just needed some like gospel music cuz I just needed some like pumping of encouragement before I went pumping of encouragement before I went pumping of encouragement before I went back in there. Um, and then I sought

back in there. Um, and then I sought back in there. Um, and then I sought people out. So, that second one, people out. So, that second one, people out. So, that second one, relational crafting, is when you decide relational crafting, is when you decide relational crafting, is when you decide I need to limit my interactions with I need to limit my interactions with I need to limit my interactions with some of these people and I need to some of these people and I need to some of these people and I need to pursue my interactions with these people pursue my interactions with these people pursue my interactions with these people who I actually like I want to adopt that who I actually like I want to adopt that who I actually like I want to adopt that mindset. The third thing is cognitive mindset. The third thing is cognitive mindset. The third thing is cognitive crafting. So you've got task crafting, crafting. So you've got task crafting, crafting. So you've got task crafting, relational crafting, cognitive crafting relational crafting, cognitive crafting relational crafting, cognitive crafting is remembering the bigger why. Simon is remembering the bigger why. Simon is remembering the bigger why. Simon Senic is so great when he talks about Senic is so great when he talks about Senic is so great when he talks about why, you know, and and so why am I doing why, you know, and and so why am I doing why, you know, and and so why am I doing this? What value does this have? What is this? What value does this have? What is this? What value does this have? What is the greater impact here? And one of the the greater impact here? And one of the the greater impact here? And one of the things I would suggest for people who things I would suggest for people who things I would suggest for people who are really in that place of not feeling are really in that place of not feeling are really in that place of not feeling called but having that desire is try called but having that desire is try called but having that desire is try doing one of these for one month and doing one of these for one month and doing one of these for one month and then switch to the next one. So take 3 then switch to the next one. So take 3 then switch to the next one. So take 3 months, do task crafting for one month, months, do task crafting for one month, months, do task crafting for one month, see if there's something you can either see if there's something you can either see if there's something you can either give to someone else or take on and just give to someone else or take on and just give to someone else or take on and just see how that goes for a month. Second see how that goes for a month. Second see how that goes for a month. Second month, see how you can modify who you month, see how you can modify who you month, see how you can modify who you interact with so that you are around interact with so that you are around interact with so that you are around people who are lifegiving to some people who are lifegiving to some people who are lifegiving to some extent. And that always has to be extent. And that always has to be extent. And that always has to be intentional, doesn't it? Has to be intentional, doesn't it? Has to be intentional, doesn't it? Has to be intentional. I mean, the lifegiving intentional. I mean, the lifegiving intentional. I mean, the lifegiving relationships take work and the draining relationships take work and the draining relationships take work and the draining people just seem to show up. I don't people just seem to show up. I don't people just seem to show up. I don't know how that happens. They're really know how that happens. They're really know how that happens. They're really Yeah, they're really easy to find and Yeah, they're really easy to find and Yeah, they're really easy to find and they're very welcoming and they find they're very welcoming and they find they're very welcoming and they find you. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Um, and then that you. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Um, and then that you. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Um, and then that last one of like, why are you doing last one of like, why are you doing last one of like, why are you doing this? At the end of the day, this goes this? At the end of the day, this goes this? At the end of the day, this goes back to our primary calling. I'm loving back to our primary calling. I'm loving back to our primary calling. I'm loving God and I'm loving others. If you're a God and I'm loving others. If you're a God and I'm loving others. If you're a stay-at-home parent and you're loving stay-at-home parent and you're loving stay-at-home parent and you're loving your kid, that kid is going to school or your kid, that kid is going to school or your kid, that kid is going to school or going to interact with other kids and

going to interact with other kids and going to interact with other kids and that's going to impact things. If you that's going to impact things. If you that's going to impact things. If you are um a staff member at a church and are um a staff member at a church and are um a staff member at a church and you feel like your job is menial and you feel like your job is menial and you feel like your job is menial and unseen, first of all, most of the time unseen, first of all, most of the time unseen, first of all, most of the time nothing can survive without the folks nothing can survive without the folks nothing can survive without the folks who are just doing that sort of staff who are just doing that sort of staff who are just doing that sort of staff focused administrative stuff. You are focused administrative stuff. You are focused administrative stuff. You are the lifeblood of the team. Um but the lifeblood of the team. Um but the lifeblood of the team. Um but figuring that out, figuring out that figuring that out, figuring out that figuring that out, figuring out that greater why and if you don't know, greater why and if you don't know, greater why and if you don't know, that's a sign to pull over and take a that's a sign to pull over and take a that's a sign to pull over and take a break. Yeah. Is there anything else I break. Yeah. Is there anything else I break. Yeah. Is there anything else I need to ask you about that we haven't need to ask you about that we haven't need to ask you about that we haven't talked about today, Ariana? There's so talked about today, Ariana? There's so talked about today, Ariana? There's so many good things we have talked about. many good things we have talked about. many good things we have talked about. I've so enjoyed this. You know, I think I've so enjoyed this. You know, I think I've so enjoyed this. You know, I think we've talked about a lot of things. I we've talked about a lot of things. I we've talked about a lot of things. I guess I would say that third sea of guess I would say that third sea of guess I would say that third sea of community is often the forgotten sea. community is often the forgotten sea. community is often the forgotten sea. And so I would say we need to think more And so I would say we need to think more And so I would say we need to think more about how our community that we have or about how our community that we have or about how our community that we have or don't have impacts us and the community don't have impacts us and the community don't have impacts us and the community that we serve because that really plays that we serve because that really plays that we serve because that really plays a role in what we're doing. I don't know a role in what we're doing. I don't know a role in what we're doing. I don't know if you feel this way. You know, you can if you feel this way. You know, you can if you feel this way. You know, you can think about different church services think about different church services think about different church services like the 9:00 versus the 11:00 and how like the 9:00 versus the 11:00 and how like the 9:00 versus the 11:00 and how they react to your message. Or I think they react to your message. Or I think they react to your message. Or I think about classes. I teach the same class about classes. I teach the same class about classes. I teach the same class but different students and how literally but different students and how literally but different students and how literally the people make a difference. They do.

the people make a difference. They do. the people make a difference. They do. And so, you know, my best friend and I, And so, you know, my best friend and I, And so, you know, my best friend and I, she and I have a standing phone call at she and I have a standing phone call at she and I have a standing phone call at 4:30 on Tuesdays and we take 1 hour and 4:30 on Tuesdays and we take 1 hour and 4:30 on Tuesdays and we take 1 hour and we have a conversation. And that is a we have a conversation. And that is a we have a conversation. And that is a reorienting place for me. She is part of reorienting place for me. She is part of reorienting place for me. She is part of my community. And so, I think we need to my community. And so, I think we need to my community. And so, I think we need to go back and think about how community go back and think about how community go back and think about how community impacts what we're doing as it relates impacts what we're doing as it relates impacts what we're doing as it relates to accountability and also support. H to accountability and also support. H to accountability and also support. H you know one thing that's become clear you know one thing that's become clear you know one thing that's become clear reading between the lines in or reading between the lines in or reading between the lines in or listening between the lines in this listening between the lines in this listening between the lines in this conversation is how intentional you are conversation is how intentional you are conversation is how intentional you are about community between your board of about community between your board of about community between your board of directors between your best friend directors between your best friend directors between your best friend Tuesday at 4:30. This is not something Tuesday at 4:30. This is not something Tuesday at 4:30. This is not something that just randomly assembles. that just randomly assembles. that just randomly assembles. No, you have to pursue it. And I think No, you have to pursue it. And I think No, you have to pursue it. And I think there's an element of vulnerability with there's an element of vulnerability with there's an element of vulnerability with that. It you know we we have to we need that. It you know we we have to we need that. It you know we we have to we need that support. We were meant to be in that support. We were meant to be in that support. We were meant to be in community. We are relational beings community. We are relational beings community. We are relational beings designed after a relational God. And so designed after a relational God. And so designed after a relational God. And so anytime we lose focus of the anytime we lose focus of the anytime we lose focus of the relationship, we get into trouble. Well, relationship, we get into trouble. Well, relationship, we get into trouble. Well, your latest book is called Healthy your latest book is called Healthy your latest book is called Healthy Calling: From Toxic Burnout to Calling: From Toxic Burnout to Calling: From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work. It's available Sustainable Work. It's available Sustainable Work. It's available everywhere. Ariana, if people want to everywhere. Ariana, if people want to everywhere. Ariana, if people want to connect with you online, what's a good connect with you online, what's a good connect with you online, what's a good place for them to find you? Yeah, you place for them to find you? Yeah, you place for them to find you? Yeah, you can go to Ariana Mallaloy.com. I have can go to Ariana Mallaloy.com. I have can go to Ariana Mallaloy.com. I have lots of resources there, um, other lots of resources there, um, other lots of resources there, um, other videos and other other things. And I videos and other other things. And I videos and other other things. And I would just be delighted to talk with would just be delighted to talk with would just be delighted to talk with anyone who needs to process any of this.

anyone who needs to process any of this. anyone who needs to process any of this. I don't have all the answers. I'm still I don't have all the answers. I'm still I don't have all the answers. I'm still figuring it out. Yeah. But I love but I figuring it out. Yeah. But I love but I figuring it out. Yeah. But I love but I love talking about it and I I think it's love talking about it and I I think it's love talking about it and I I think it's a journey worth fighting for. I could a journey worth fighting for. I could a journey worth fighting for. I could not agree more and thank you so much for not agree more and thank you so much for not agree more and thank you so much for being with us today. It was a pleasure.