Leadership is NOT Lonely! with Henry Cloud

Loneliness is is a big problem for Loneliness is is a big problem for leadership and a lot of leaders. leadership and a lot of leaders. leadership and a lot of leaders. It should not be It should not be It should not be >> okay talk. >> okay talk. >> okay talk. >> It should not one of my most hated >> It should not one of my most hated >> It should not one of my most hated phrases. It's lonely at the top. phrases. It's lonely at the top. phrases. It's lonely at the top. If it's lonely at the top, you got a If it's lonely at the top, you got a If it's lonely at the top, you got a problem. problem. problem. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. I am so glad you leadership podcast. I am so glad you leadership podcast. I am so glad you joined us and I hope our time together joined us and I hope our time together joined us and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and today helps you thrive in life and today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Welcome to all of you who leadership. Welcome to all of you who leadership. Welcome to all of you who are listening, regular listeners, brand are listening, regular listeners, brand are listening, regular listeners, brand new listeners. So glad that you are here new listeners. So glad that you are here new listeners. So glad that you are here because we're talking about leadership. because we're talking about leadership. because we're talking about leadership. It's not lonely. Founderitis, what It's not lonely. Founderitis, what It's not lonely. Founderitis, what happens when you get too [music] happens when you get too [music] happens when you get too [music] attached to the organization that you attached to the organization that you attached to the organization that you lead and why you have more control over lead and why you have more control over lead and why you have more control over your life than you think? I know we feel your life than you think? I know we feel your life than you think? I know we feel like we're in this out of control like we're in this out of control like we're in this out of control moment. [music] Uh but we're not. So Dr. moment. [music] Uh but we're not. So Dr. moment. [music] Uh but we're not. So Dr. Henry Cloud is an acclaimed leadership Henry Cloud is an acclaimed leadership Henry Cloud is an acclaimed leadership expert, clinical psychologist, and New expert, clinical psychologist, and New expert, clinical psychologist, and New York Times best-selling authors. his 45 York Times best-selling authors. his 45 York Times best-selling authors. his 45 books, including The Iconic Boundaries, books, including The Iconic Boundaries, books, including The Iconic Boundaries, have sold nearly 20 million copies have sold nearly 20 million copies have sold nearly 20 million copies worldwide. I think you're really going worldwide. I think you're really going worldwide. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. We're also on to enjoy this one. We're also on to enjoy this one. We're also on YouTube, uh, for those of you who are YouTube, uh, for those of you who are YouTube, uh, for those of you who are listening in. And if you're brand new to listening in. And if you're brand new to listening in. And if you're brand new to this, the best thing you can do if you this, the best thing you can do if you this, the best thing you can do if you enjoy it is to share it with a friend, enjoy it is to share it with a friend, enjoy it is to share it with a friend, leave us a rating and review, and hit leave us a rating and review, and hit leave us a rating and review, and hit subscribe or follow wherever you're subscribe or follow wherever you're subscribe or follow wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. And watching, wherever you're listening. And watching, wherever you're listening. And now to my conversation with the now to my conversation with the now to my conversation with the worldrenowned Henry Cloud. Henry, it's worldrenowned Henry Cloud. Henry, it's worldrenowned Henry Cloud. Henry, it's great to have you back and uh man, I got great to have you back and uh man, I got great to have you back and uh man, I got to tell you, we got one of the world's to tell you, we got one of the world's to tell you, we got one of the world's leading experts right now leading experts right now leading experts right now >> who meets with CEOs, church leaders, and >> who meets with CEOs, church leaders, and >> who meets with CEOs, church leaders, and you see

you see you see >> so much. What are what are you seeing? >> so much. What are what are you seeing? >> so much. What are what are you seeing? >> Well, that guy couldn't come, but >> Well, that guy couldn't come, but >> Well, that guy couldn't come, but >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> I'm subbing in today. >> I'm subbing in today. >> I'm subbing in today. >> We got Henry subbing in. Um what what >> We got Henry subbing in. Um what what >> We got Henry subbing in. Um what what are what are you seeing these days? Like are what are you seeing these days? Like are what are you seeing these days? Like when you walk into sea suite, when you when you walk into sea suite, when you when you walk into sea suite, when you meet with senior leaders, and we got meet with senior leaders, and we got meet with senior leaders, and we got lots of them watching today, lots of lots of them watching today, lots of lots of them watching today, lots of them listening. What are you seeing? them listening. What are you seeing? them listening. What are you seeing? >> Oh gosh. In in some in some senses, you >> Oh gosh. In in some in some senses, you >> Oh gosh. In in some in some senses, you know, when Solomon said there's nothing know, when Solomon said there's nothing know, when Solomon said there's nothing new under the sun. new under the sun. new under the sun. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Um you you've got you've got humanity >> Um you you've got you've got humanity >> Um you you've got you've got humanity doing what humans do and we can talk doing what humans do and we can talk doing what humans do and we can talk about what those issues are. The human about what those issues are. The human about what those issues are. The human issues really don't change, but what issues really don't change, but what issues really don't change, but what changes is the context. And so um you've changes is the context. And so um you've changes is the context. And so um you've got got got so much so much so much um loss of control, perceived leaders um loss of control, perceived leaders um loss of control, perceived leaders loss of control, which is one of the loss of control, which is one of the loss of control, which is one of the worst things that can happen to a leader worst things that can happen to a leader worst things that can happen to a leader because of the brain functions it kicks because of the brain functions it kicks because of the brain functions it kicks into is when they into is when they into is when they >> So perceived loss of control.

>> So perceived loss of control. >> So perceived loss of control. >> Yeah. Perceived. Um because what happens >> Yeah. Perceived. Um because what happens >> Yeah. Perceived. Um because what happens is there's a there's a condition called is there's a there's a condition called is there's a there's a condition called learned helplessness. learned helplessness. learned helplessness. >> Yeah. It comes from uh we discovered it >> Yeah. It comes from uh we discovered it >> Yeah. It comes from uh we discovered it long time ago when they they hooked this long time ago when they they hooked this long time ago when they they hooked this was when you could still do fun stuff was when you could still do fun stuff was when you could still do fun stuff with animals. [laughter] with animals. [laughter] with animals. [laughter] >> Animal experimentation >> Animal experimentation >> Animal experimentation >> research. I'm not suggesting this now, >> research. I'm not suggesting this now, >> research. I'm not suggesting this now, but but they put dogs on a but but they put dogs on a but but they put dogs on a >> not recommended. Not recommended. >> not recommended. Not recommended. >> not recommended. Not recommended. >> They they put them on a little pad with >> They they put them on a little pad with >> They they put them on a little pad with a little one fence around it and and a little one fence around it and and a little one fence around it and and there was a mild shock, but if the dog there was a mild shock, but if the dog there was a mild shock, but if the dog hit the lever, hit the lever, hit the lever, >> the shock went in. Right. So the dog >> the shock went in. Right. So the dog >> the shock went in. Right. So the dog learns I have control over my quality of learns I have control over my quality of learns I have control over my quality of life, right? What's happening to me, life, right? What's happening to me, life, right? What's happening to me, which is a basic law that God's built which is a basic law that God's built which is a basic law that God's built into the universe. into the universe. into the universe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, cause and effect. And if >> You know, cause and effect. And if >> You know, cause and effect. And if you're hungry, you get off the couch and you're hungry, you get off the couch and you're hungry, you get off the couch and you can solve that problem. You have you can solve that problem. You have you can solve that problem. You have control of that. control of that. control of that. >> Well, what they did was they unhook the >> Well, what they did was they unhook the >> Well, what they did was they unhook the lever and the dogs hit the lever and lever and the dogs hit the lever and lever and the dogs hit the lever and they're still miserable. And so what they're still miserable. And so what they're still miserable. And so what happens is they slowly get depressed and happens is they slowly get depressed and happens is they slowly get depressed and they stop trying. the brain actually they stop trying. the brain actually they stop trying. the brain actually changes and it goes inactive.

changes and it goes inactive. changes and it goes inactive. So then they remove the little fence So then they remove the little fence So then they remove the little fence and the dog could hop over off the mat and the dog could hop over off the mat and the dog could hop over off the mat >> could leave >> could leave >> could leave >> could leave and he doesn't because his >> could leave and he doesn't because his >> could leave and he doesn't because his brain shut down brain shut down brain shut down >> cuz he think it's useless. >> cuz he think it's useless. >> cuz he think it's useless. >> Yeah. So you take when you have external >> Yeah. So you take when you have external >> Yeah. So you take when you have external circumstances circumstances circumstances like covid for example where where the like covid for example where where the like covid for example where where the the environment around a leader is the environment around a leader is the environment around a leader is changing that's really affecting their changing that's really affecting their changing that's really affecting their quality of life. Right. quality of life. Right. quality of life. Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> What happens is slowly the software in >> What happens is slowly the software in >> What happens is slowly the software in the brain changes where they interpret the brain changes where they interpret the brain changes where they interpret everything as negative about themselves. everything as negative about themselves. everything as negative about themselves. I'm not good enough. I don't know what I'm not good enough. I don't know what I'm not good enough. I don't know what it means to be a leader or what it it means to be a leader or what it it means to be a leader or what it takes. takes. takes. We call them the three Ps. the they We call them the three Ps. the they We call them the three Ps. the they personalize everything, then it goes personalize everything, then it goes personalize everything, then it goes subjectively pervasive. Well, it's not subjectively pervasive. Well, it's not subjectively pervasive. Well, it's not just my team, it's the congregation, just my team, it's the congregation, just my team, it's the congregation, it's the city, it's the environment, it's the city, it's the environment, it's the city, it's the environment, it's the economy, and and it's all bad. it's the economy, and and it's all bad. it's the economy, and and it's all bad. Everything begins to feel miserable and Everything begins to feel miserable and Everything begins to feel miserable and all bad. And then the third P is it's all bad. And then the third P is it's all bad. And then the third P is it's permanent in there. It won't get better permanent in there. It won't get better permanent in there. It won't get better next month and they lose hope. And so next month and they lose hope. And so next month and they lose hope. And so once that happens then they really begin once that happens then they really begin once that happens then they really begin to kind of shut down and that leads to a to kind of shut down and that leads to a to kind of shut down and that leads to a lot of stuff. Well, in today's, you lot of stuff. Well, in today's, you lot of stuff. Well, in today's, you know, back to today's environment, you know, back to today's environment, you know, back to today's environment, you have you have so much happening that have you have so much happening that have you have so much happening that they don't have control of, right? That they don't have control of, right? That they don't have control of, right? That they can really lose focus

they can really lose focus they can really lose focus on what they do have control of that can on what they do have control of that can on what they do have control of that can actually change the outcomes and they actually change the outcomes and they actually change the outcomes and they get scattered. You know, that focus is a get scattered. You know, that focus is a get scattered. You know, that focus is a big problem in leaders right now. And big problem in leaders right now. And big problem in leaders right now. And then they're trying to leave people that then they're trying to leave people that then they're trying to leave people that are scattered. And so that's a big one. are scattered. And so that's a big one. are scattered. And so that's a big one. And you put that together with leading a And you put that together with leading a And you put that together with leading a generation that has a very different generation that has a very different generation that has a very different experience of what real authority is experience of what real authority is experience of what real authority is and all that that means. and all that that means. and all that that means. And then you've got the problems you And then you've got the problems you And then you've got the problems you always had of always had of always had of who is this person that went into who is this person that went into who is this person that went into leadership? leadership? leadership? because it's easy when it's easy, but because it's easy when it's easy, but because it's easy when it's easy, but when it gets hard, then you get down to when it gets hard, then you get down to when it gets hard, then you get down to the essence of that person's makeup. And the essence of that person's makeup. And the essence of that person's makeup. And so what I end up doing is is, you know, so what I end up doing is is, you know, so what I end up doing is is, you know, I my lane has been in how humans are I my lane has been in how humans are I my lane has been in how humans are designed, how they perform, and how they designed, how they perform, and how they designed, how they perform, and how they lead, and how people are led best. But lead, and how people are led best. But lead, and how people are led best. But how the leaders own issues may or may how the leaders own issues may or may how the leaders own issues may or may not be helping that.

not be helping that. not be helping that. Do you see this perceived lack of Do you see this perceived lack of Do you see this perceived lack of control more prominently in business or control more prominently in business or control more prominently in business or in the church or is it the same? It's in the church or is it the same? It's in the church or is it the same? It's just a human issue. I think it's just just a human issue. I think it's just just a human issue. I think it's just well it's a human issue but the context well it's a human issue but the context well it's a human issue but the context that they find themselves in is is very that they find themselves in is is very that they find themselves in is is very similar similar similar you know because a leader has to move a you know because a leader has to move a you know because a leader has to move a group of people from where they are to group of people from where they are to group of people from where they are to to where they're going and to to try to to where they're going and to to try to to where they're going and to to try to you know there there's something called you know there there's something called you know there there's something called the executive functions of the brain the executive functions of the brain the executive functions of the brain which do three things. You attend to which do three things. You attend to which do three things. You attend to what's relevant. You inhibit what isn't what's relevant. You inhibit what isn't what's relevant. You inhibit what isn't in getting to the goal. But you got to in getting to the goal. But you got to in getting to the goal. But you got to keep that in a working memory in front keep that in a working memory in front keep that in a working memory in front of people all the time. Well, the amount of people all the time. Well, the amount of people all the time. Well, the amount of other voices, the amount of um input, of other voices, the amount of um input, of other voices, the amount of um input, the amount of scatteredness the amount of scatteredness the amount of scatteredness that everybody in the party is getting that everybody in the party is getting that everybody in the party is getting every day when a leader is trying to get every day when a leader is trying to get every day when a leader is trying to get them, you know, down a certain path, them, you know, down a certain path, them, you know, down a certain path, that gets very very competitive for that gets very very competitive for that gets very very competitive for brain space and and that's leading to a brain space and and that's leading to a brain space and and that's leading to a lot of problems.

lot of problems. lot of problems. >> Yeah. What do you think has made it >> Yeah. What do you think has made it >> Yeah. What do you think has made it worse over the last few years? Is it worse over the last few years? Is it worse over the last few years? Is it like coming out of COVID? Everybody like coming out of COVID? Everybody like coming out of COVID? Everybody seems like a lot of leaders dropped out seems like a lot of leaders dropped out seems like a lot of leaders dropped out particularly in the church during COVID. particularly in the church during COVID. particularly in the church during COVID. >> And what's interesting if you think >> And what's interesting if you think >> And what's interesting if you think about it and a lot of them thrived. about it and a lot of them thrived. about it and a lot of them thrived. >> Yeah. Yeah. Not everybody had a bad >> Yeah. Yeah. Not everybody had a bad >> Yeah. Yeah. Not everybody had a bad year. year. year. >> No. But who did and who didn't, you >> No. But who did and who didn't, you >> No. But who did and who didn't, you know, certainly there are narratives know, certainly there are narratives know, certainly there are narratives that explain a lot of bad circumstances that explain a lot of bad circumstances that explain a lot of bad circumstances that some people couldn't couldn't have that some people couldn't couldn't have that some people couldn't couldn't have done anything about. But the ones that done anything about. But the ones that done anything about. But the ones that thrived were the same things we see in thrived were the same things we see in thrived were the same things we see in every meltdown. Let's go back to '08 and every meltdown. Let's go back to '08 and every meltdown. Let's go back to '08 and the financial meltdown. I did a lot of the financial meltdown. I did a lot of the financial meltdown. I did a lot of work on Wall Street work on Wall Street work on Wall Street >> and I mean that was bad. >> and I mean that was bad. >> and I mean that was bad. >> It was really bad. >> It was really bad. >> It was really bad. >> But the ones that that actually were >> But the ones that that actually were >> But the ones that that actually were able to able to able to get out of the noise and to find what do get out of the noise and to find what do get out of the noise and to find what do I have control of that can move the I have control of that can move the I have control of that can move the needle. They were the ones that thrived needle. They were the ones that thrived needle. They were the ones that thrived and did a lot of programs on Wall Street and did a lot of programs on Wall Street and did a lot of programs on Wall Street with with getting people out of the funk with with getting people out of the funk with with getting people out of the funk and and [clears throat] having sometimes and and [clears throat] having sometimes and and [clears throat] having sometimes the best year they had ever had.

the best year they had ever had. the best year they had ever had. >> Well, I've tried this before with you >> Well, I've tried this before with you >> Well, I've tried this before with you and I got it wrong and I'm pretty sure and I got it wrong and I'm pretty sure and I got it wrong and I'm pretty sure I'm going to get it wrong again. So, you I'm going to get it wrong again. So, you I'm going to get it wrong again. So, you can just correct me. One of my favorite can just correct me. One of my favorite can just correct me. One of my favorite quotes of yours, which I will misquote, quotes of yours, which I will misquote, quotes of yours, which I will misquote, is you are ridiculously in control of is you are ridiculously in control of is you are ridiculously in control of your life. Or how what what what's the your life. Or how what what what's the your life. Or how what what what's the actual thing you said? actual thing you said? actual thing you said? >> The actual Well, actually, I didn't say >> The actual Well, actually, I didn't say >> The actual Well, actually, I didn't say it. It came from a CEO. it. It came from a CEO. it. It came from a CEO. >> Okay. of a global entity who was talking >> Okay. of a global entity who was talking >> Okay. of a global entity who was talking about I said what's he said well you about I said what's he said well you about I said what's he said well you know we didn't hit our results or the know we didn't hit our results or the know we didn't hit our results or the quarter or the the team or the morale it quarter or the the team or the morale it quarter or the the team or the morale it was some problem I said why is that and was some problem I said why is that and was some problem I said why is that and he said well because you know I brought he said well because you know I brought he said well because you know I brought in this guy who came from another in this guy who came from another in this guy who came from another company he infected the I said why is company he infected the I said why is company he infected the I said why is that he said well because he I said well that he said well because he I said well that he said well because he I said well why is that and I kept saying why is why is that and I kept saying why is why is that and I kept saying why is that and then he looks that and then he looks that and then he looks >> broke him down >> broke him down >> broke him down >> he looks at me and he says I guess I am >> he looks at me and he says I guess I am >> he looks at me and he says I guess I am ridiculously in charge, aren't I? ridiculously in charge, aren't I? ridiculously in charge, aren't I? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, now >> Yeah. So, now >> Yeah. So, now >> we're sitting with the one person who >> we're sitting with the one person who >> we're sitting with the one person who can do something about this. can do something about this. can do something about this. >> So, ridiculously in charge in charge. >> So, ridiculously in charge in charge. >> So, ridiculously in charge in charge. Period. Period. Period. >> Life. And you think that's a key to >> Life. And you think that's a key to >> Life. And you think that's a key to thriving, right? Like I need to realize thriving, right? Like I need to realize thriving, right? Like I need to realize I am ridiculously in charge of my life.

I am ridiculously in charge of my life. I am ridiculously in charge of my life. >> You're ridiculously in charge of what >> You're ridiculously in charge of what >> You're ridiculously in charge of what you have control of. Now, think about you have control of. Now, think about you have control of. Now, think about this. Th this is this is insanely this. Th this is this is insanely this. Th this is this is insanely profound. profound. profound. God is the least controlling leader that God is the least controlling leader that God is the least controlling leader that there's ever been. You talk about there's ever been. You talk about there's ever been. You talk about delegation on steroids. delegation on steroids. delegation on steroids. >> Go back to the garden. >> Go back to the garden. >> Go back to the garden. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He said, "Look, here it is, guys. Here's >> He said, "Look, here it is, guys. Here's >> He said, "Look, here it is, guys. Here's here's what I want you to do." He casts here's what I want you to do." He casts here's what I want you to do." He casts a vision. He says, "I've equipped you. a vision. He says, "I've equipped you. a vision. He says, "I've equipped you. Now go for it." And that's what they're Now go for it." And that's what they're Now go for it." And that's what they're supposed to do. One of my favorite supposed to do. One of my favorite supposed to do. One of my favorite verses in the whole Bible. He tells him verses in the whole Bible. He tells him verses in the whole Bible. He tells him to go name the animals. And this says, to go name the animals. And this says, to go name the animals. And this says, "And the Lord God watched to see what "And the Lord God watched to see what "And the Lord God watched to see what the man would name them." the man would name them." the man would name them." That's why we have a platypus. That's why we have a platypus. That's why we have a platypus. [laughter] You go to the parable of talents. He You go to the parable of talents. He equipped him and it says he went on a equipped him and it says he went on a equipped him and it says he went on a long journey. I mean, God, we're created long journey. I mean, God, we're created long journey. I mean, God, we're created in his image and and part of image in his image and and part of image in his image and and part of image bearing is we're supposed to do what he bearing is we're supposed to do what he bearing is we're supposed to do what he does, right? And that so we are in we does, right? And that so we are in we does, right? And that so we are in we have an insane amount of control of one have an insane amount of control of one have an insane amount of control of one thing which is the fruit of the spirit thing which is the fruit of the spirit thing which is the fruit of the spirit which is supposed to be regained self which is supposed to be regained self which is supposed to be regained self control. M control. M control. M >> and once you understand that, >> and once you understand that, >> and once you understand that, then you divide the world into what then you divide the world into what then you divide the world into what outcomes do I want and what do I have

outcomes do I want and what do I have outcomes do I want and what do I have control of that can affect that. But control of that can affect that. But control of that can affect that. But what happens with leaders is they're what happens with leaders is they're what happens with leaders is they're looking at everything they don't have looking at everything they don't have looking at everything they don't have control of and and they slowly sometimes control of and and they slowly sometimes control of and and they slowly sometimes begin to take on kind of a victim begin to take on kind of a victim begin to take on kind of a victim powerless mentality and that causes a powerless mentality and that causes a powerless mentality and that causes a lot of stuff that is problematic. So, lot of stuff that is problematic. So, lot of stuff that is problematic. So, I'm ridiculously in charge of me. I'm ridiculously in charge of me. I'm ridiculously in charge of me. What has God given me that I can do What has God given me that I can do What has God given me that I can do something with? And we go from there. something with? And we go from there. something with? And we go from there. You know, when you're in a marriage, you You know, when you're in a marriage, you You know, when you're in a marriage, you can't control your spouse. But what if can't control your spouse. But what if can't control your spouse. But what if somebody's got a wacko spouse? You can somebody's got a wacko spouse? You can somebody's got a wacko spouse? You can control how you respond, how you react, control how you respond, how you react, control how you respond, how you react, what your strategies are going to be, what your strategies are going to be, what your strategies are going to be, how you take care of yourself, how you how you take care of yourself, how you how you take care of yourself, how you do things to influence them, hopefully do things to influence them, hopefully do things to influence them, hopefully for the better, how you might have to for the better, how you might have to for the better, how you might have to protect yourself. you you can't control protect yourself. you you can't control protect yourself. you you can't control another person. God's omnipotent. We're another person. God's omnipotent. We're another person. God's omnipotent. We're potent. potent. potent. >> So, we have these scripts that run in >> So, we have these scripts that run in >> So, we have these scripts that run in our mind. One of them I hear a lot in our mind. One of them I hear a lot in our mind. One of them I hear a lot in the church is, "Yeah, well, that might the church is, "Yeah, well, that might the church is, "Yeah, well, that might work at Life Church, but you don't know work at Life Church, but you don't know work at Life Church, but you don't know what it's like in my town, in my what it's like in my town, in my what it's like in my town, in my community, one of the most unchurched community, one of the most unchurched community, one of the most unchurched areas, blah blah blah blah blah."

areas, blah blah blah blah blah." areas, blah blah blah blah blah." >> And I think, you know, >> And I think, you know, >> And I think, you know, >> sort of like first century pounds where there were only 12 guys. pounds where there were only 12 guys. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Exactly. Exactly. Didn't have anything. >> Exactly. Exactly. Didn't have anything. >> Exactly. Exactly. Didn't have anything. >> But they have all these reasons why it >> But they have all these reasons why it >> But they have all these reasons why it doesn't work doesn't work doesn't work >> in their community. Right. Well, you >> in their community. Right. Well, you >> in their community. Right. Well, you don't really understand. Well, that's don't really understand. Well, that's don't really understand. Well, that's the west side of the city, the side, the west side of the city, the side, the west side of the city, the side, east side. Oh, yeah. east side. Oh, yeah. east side. Oh, yeah. >> Etc., etc., right? And I'm I'm my my >> Etc., etc., right? And I'm I'm my my >> Etc., etc., right? And I'm I'm my my answer is look, if it didn't work in answer is look, if it didn't work in answer is look, if it didn't work in your side of town, then Apple wouldn't your side of town, then Apple wouldn't your side of town, then Apple wouldn't sell iPhones and GM and Tesla wouldn't sell iPhones and GM and Tesla wouldn't sell iPhones and GM and Tesla wouldn't sell vehicles and Netflix wouldn't sell vehicles and Netflix wouldn't sell vehicles and Netflix wouldn't provide service, but they do and people provide service, but they do and people provide service, but they do and people purchase them. So, I don't think it's purchase them. So, I don't think it's purchase them. So, I don't think it's your town and I don't think it's your your town and I don't think it's your your town and I don't think it's your area. It's a little different, right? area. It's a little different, right? area. It's a little different, right? >> Certainly contexts are different and >> Certainly contexts are different and >> Certainly contexts are different and some are way harder than others. Sure. some are way harder than others. Sure. some are way harder than others. Sure. But if you have been called to something But if you have been called to something But if you have been called to something and you are called to a particular and you are called to a particular and you are called to a particular context and you know that certain and context and you know that certain and context and you know that certain and you know part of leadership is trying you know part of leadership is trying you know part of leadership is trying stuff and it doesn't work and you stuff and it doesn't work and you stuff and it doesn't work and you regroup and all we see that throughout regroup and all we see that throughout regroup and all we see that throughout the New Testament but but there's the New Testament but but there's the New Testament but but there's there's something you can do to do the there's something you can do to do the there's something you can do to do the something that you're called to do and something that you're called to do and something that you're called to do and you've got to do that until it doesn't you've got to do that until it doesn't you've got to do that until it doesn't and then certainly we adapt. But you've and then certainly we adapt. But you've and then certainly we adapt. But you've got to really be careful of the got to really be careful of the got to really be careful of the mentality mentality mentality that says that starts to think this is that says that starts to think this is that says that starts to think this is impossible here. I it doesn't apply to

impossible here. I it doesn't apply to impossible here. I it doesn't apply to to leadership, but it's a good example. to leadership, but it's a good example. to leadership, but it's a good example. Um we we were talking about before the Um we we were talking about before the Um we we were talking about before the the the podcast here with um one of your the the podcast here with um one of your the the podcast here with um one of your team about um their dating life. I'll team about um their dating life. I'll team about um their dating life. I'll never forget this. I was was speaking in never forget this. I was was speaking in never forget this. I was was speaking in um LA um LA um LA one night and it was open for him and one night and it was open for him and one night and it was open for him and this woman said, "What this woman said, "What this woman said, "What what do you think about how hard it is what do you think about how hard it is what do you think about how hard it is to date in LA? I mean, you can't find a to date in LA? I mean, you can't find a to date in LA? I mean, you can't find a spouse in LA." I said, "Why?" She said, spouse in LA." I said, "Why?" She said, spouse in LA." I said, "Why?" She said, "Well, everybody's so transient here. "Well, everybody's so transient here. "Well, everybody's so transient here. They hadn't been here and there's not They hadn't been here and there's not They hadn't been here and there's not networks of extended families and where networks of extended families and where networks of extended families and where people know each other." And and people know each other." And and people know each other." And and that's what she said. Two nights later, that's what she said. Two nights later, that's what she said. Two nights later, I'm in Chicago. I'm speaking. There's I'm in Chicago. I'm speaking. There's I'm in Chicago. I'm speaking. There's another open forum. What do you think another open forum. What do you think another open forum. What do you think about dating in Chicago? I find it about dating in Chicago? I find it about dating in Chicago? I find it impossible, but a lot easier. Oh, and impossible, but a lot easier. Oh, and impossible, but a lot easier. Oh, and the first woman said it'd be a lot the first woman said it'd be a lot the first woman said it'd be a lot easier if I were in the Midwest where easier if I were in the Midwest where easier if I were in the Midwest where things were stable. Chicago, the woman things were stable. Chicago, the woman things were stable. Chicago, the woman says, "Well, you know, if you were in LA says, "Well, you know, if you were in LA says, "Well, you know, if you were in LA where there's a lot of new people where there's a lot of new people where there's a lot of new people coming, but the people here have been coming, but the people here have been coming, but the people here have been there forever." Hey, come on.

there forever." Hey, come on. there forever." Hey, come on. Really? Really? Really? >> What does that do? You talked about >> What does that do? You talked about >> What does that do? You talked about learned helplessness, but learned helplessness, but learned helplessness, but >> now that doesn't mean it's not harder in >> now that doesn't mean it's not harder in >> now that doesn't mean it's not harder in some context. some context. some context. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are some unchurched areas or some unchurched areas or some unchurched areas or >> well, the East Coast and the Pacific >> well, the East Coast and the Pacific >> well, the East Coast and the Pacific Northwest, it's harder. I Northwest, it's harder. I Northwest, it's harder. I >> I'll give you a great example. We when >> I'll give you a great example. We when >> I'll give you a great example. We when when we lived in LA when we lived in LA when we lived in LA um where I did for a long time, we were um where I did for a long time, we were um where I did for a long time, we were um in a church there, vintage church um in a church there, vintage church um in a church there, vintage church that launched in Santa Monica, the place that launched in Santa Monica, the place that launched in Santa Monica, the place where churches go to not thrive, to die. where churches go to not thrive, to die. where churches go to not thrive, to die. >> Nobody could do it, right? and they are >> Nobody could do it, right? and they are >> Nobody could do it, right? and they are just booming and doing a great job. They just booming and doing a great job. They just booming and doing a great job. They had to adapt their, you know, they don't had to adapt their, you know, they don't had to adapt their, you know, they don't do it like you can do it, you know, in do it like you can do it, you know, in do it like you can do it, you know, in in easy town, but but you can't, in easy town, but but you can't, in easy town, but but you can't, you know, it's very similar to when the you know, it's very similar to when the you know, it's very similar to when the 12 spies looked over the wall. 12 spies looked over the wall. 12 spies looked over the wall. 10 of them had that mentality. It's too 10 of them had that mentality. It's too 10 of them had that mentality. It's too hard there. They're too big. They got hard there. They're too big. They got hard there. They're too big. They got all of this. And Joshua and Caleb said, all of this. And Joshua and Caleb said, all of this. And Joshua and Caleb said, "No, we're going. God's with us. We can "No, we're going. God's with us. We can "No, we're going. God's with us. We can do this." And was it easy? No.

do this." And was it easy? No. do this." And was it easy? No. It was not easy. It was not easy. It was not easy. >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Live. Hey, if you're Art of Leadership Live. Hey, if you're Art of Leadership Live. Hey, if you're leading a church and you know there's leading a church and you know there's leading a church and you know there's more in you. I believe there's more in more in you. I believe there's more in more in you. I believe there's more in you and more ahead for your team. I want you and more ahead for your team. I want you and more ahead for your team. I want to personally invite you to something to personally invite you to something to personally invite you to something special. September 21st, 23rd, 2026, I'm special. September 21st, 23rd, 2026, I'm special. September 21st, 23rd, 2026, I'm hosting the Art of Leadership Live. This hosting the Art of Leadership Live. This hosting the Art of Leadership Live. This year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. This year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. This year it's in Nashville, Tennessee. This isn't a conference where you just sit in isn't a conference where you just sit in isn't a conference where you just sit in a chair for eight hours, listen to a chair for eight hours, listen to a chair for eight hours, listen to talking heads, take notes, and hope talking heads, take notes, and hope talking heads, take notes, and hope something sticks. This is highly something sticks. This is highly something sticks. This is highly interactive. It's practical. It's interactive. It's practical. It's interactive. It's practical. It's intentionally designed to help you make intentionally designed to help you make intentionally designed to help you make real progress on the leadership real progress on the leadership real progress on the leadership challenges you're facing right now. So, challenges you're facing right now. So, challenges you're facing right now. So, what do we do? Well, we combine focused what do we do? Well, we combine focused what do we do? Well, we combine focused teaching, meaningful conversations with teaching, meaningful conversations with teaching, meaningful conversations with other leaders, and built-in space to other leaders, and built-in space to other leaders, and built-in space to think, process, and actually apply what think, process, and actually apply what think, process, and actually apply what you're learning. So you don't just leave you're learning. So you don't just leave you're learning. So you don't just leave inspired, you leave with clarity and inspired, you leave with clarity and inspired, you leave with clarity and next steps and you do it in community. next steps and you do it in community. next steps and you do it in community. So I'll tell you this, the leaders who So I'll tell you this, the leaders who So I'll tell you this, the leaders who gathered last year absolutely blew me gathered last year absolutely blew me gathered last year absolutely blew me away. The depth of the conversations, we away. The depth of the conversations, we away. The depth of the conversations, we have a lot of conversations. The honesty have a lot of conversations. The honesty have a lot of conversations. The honesty in the room, the momentum people left in the room, the momentum people left in the room, the momentum people left with, that's what makes this event so with, that's what makes this event so with, that's what makes this event so special. So I can't wait to do it again.

special. So I can't wait to do it again. special. So I can't wait to do it again. This time we're in Nashville. One This time we're in Nashville. One This time we're in Nashville. One important note, super early bird pricing important note, super early bird pricing important note, super early bird pricing is almost gone. So, if you've been is almost gone. So, if you've been is almost gone. So, if you've been thinking about applying, you have to thinking about applying, you have to thinking about applying, you have to apply to get in. Now is the time. Once apply to get in. Now is the time. Once apply to get in. Now is the time. Once it expires, rates go up for good. So, it expires, rates go up for good. So, it expires, rates go up for good. So, visit the art of leadershiplive.com to visit the art of leadershiplive.com to visit the art of leadershiplive.com to secure the very best pricing. Again, secure the very best pricing. Again, secure the very best pricing. Again, that's the art of leadership.com. that's the art of leadership.com. that's the art of leadership.com. I would love to see you in Nashville I would love to see you in Nashville I would love to see you in Nashville this September. This episode is brought this September. This episode is brought this September. This episode is brought to you by Glue Content Studio. So, to you by Glue Content Studio. So, to you by Glue Content Studio. So, pastors, let me ask you something. Do pastors, let me ask you something. Do pastors, let me ask you something. Do you ever feel like Sunday is what you're you ever feel like Sunday is what you're you ever feel like Sunday is what you're called to, but Monday is what breaks called to, but Monday is what breaks called to, but Monday is what breaks you? Right? You preach a message and you? Right? You preach a message and you? Right? You preach a message and then that message is supposed to turn then that message is supposed to turn then that message is supposed to turn into emails, social posts, small group into emails, social posts, small group into emails, social posts, small group questions, and next steps. No wonder the questions, and next steps. No wonder the questions, and next steps. No wonder the content hamster wheel never stops. And content hamster wheel never stops. And content hamster wheel never stops. And that's why Glue built content studio. that's why Glue built content studio. that's why Glue built content studio. It's designed around one simple idea, It's designed around one simple idea, It's designed around one simple idea, one message can power a whole week of one message can power a whole week of one message can power a whole week of ministry. So you drop in your sermon, ministry. So you drop in your sermon, ministry. So you drop in your sermon, could be an outline, your notes, or a could be an outline, your notes, or a could be an outline, your notes, or a transcript. and content studio helps transcript. and content studio helps transcript. and content studio helps turn it into summaries, onbrand social turn it into summaries, onbrand social turn it into summaries, onbrand social posts, discussion prompts, and practical posts, discussion prompts, and practical posts, discussion prompts, and practical next step. So instead of starting from next step. So instead of starting from next step. So instead of starting from scratch on Monday, you're building from scratch on Monday, you're building from scratch on Monday, you're building from what God already gave you on Sunday.

what God already gave you on Sunday. what God already gave you on Sunday. Reclaim your Mondays and extend the Reclaim your Mondays and extend the Reclaim your Mondays and extend the impact of your preaching by going to impact of your preaching by going to impact of your preaching by going to glue.com/carry. glue.com/carry. glue.com/carry. That's gloo.com/carry. So if a leader hears themselves in this So if a leader hears themselves in this conversation and says, "Yeah, I'm the conversation and says, "Yeah, I'm the conversation and says, "Yeah, I'm the person who's like, "It'd be easier to person who's like, "It'd be easier to person who's like, "It'd be easier to date if I was in Chicago. It'd be easier date if I was in Chicago. It'd be easier date if I was in Chicago. It'd be easier if I was in LA. if I was in LA. if I was in LA. >> I was in Texas." >> I was in Texas." >> I was in Texas." >> I Yeah, go ahead. I shouldn't say what I >> I Yeah, go ahead. I shouldn't say what I >> I Yeah, go ahead. I shouldn't say what I was about to say. was about to say. was about to say. >> No, now you should say it. What were you >> No, now you should say it. What were you >> No, now you should say it. What were you going to say? going to say? going to say? >> It'd be easier to date if you made >> It'd be easier to date if you made >> It'd be easier to date if you made yourself datable. yourself datable. yourself datable. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> That That would have help. >> That That would have help. >> That That would have help. >> Would probably help. Yeah. >> Would probably help. Yeah. >> Would probably help. Yeah. So if someone wants to flip the script So if someone wants to flip the script So if someone wants to flip the script and they're like, "Okay, you that's me. and they're like, "Okay, you that's me. and they're like, "Okay, you that's me. I'm always making excuses. It's the I'm always making excuses. It's the I'm always making excuses. It's the economy, it's the geography, it's my economy, it's the geography, it's my economy, it's the geography, it's my team, it's, you know, the culture." team, it's, you know, the culture." team, it's, you know, the culture." >> And sometimes >> And sometimes >> And sometimes that's true. If you realize that what that's true. If you realize that what that's true. If you realize that what you're trying to do won't work there. you're trying to do won't work there. you're trying to do won't work there. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Okay.

>> Okay. >> Okay. >> Sure. You have to change strategy. I >> Sure. You have to change strategy. I >> Sure. You have to change strategy. I wouldn't be out trying to sell phones wouldn't be out trying to sell phones wouldn't be out trying to sell phones that hang on the wall today. [laughter] that hang on the wall today. [laughter] that hang on the wall today. [laughter] But do people need to communicate? But do people need to communicate? But do people need to communicate? They do. And so a lot of times what you They do. And so a lot of times what you They do. And so a lot of times what you have to do is you kind of have to have to do is you kind of have to have to do is you kind of have to reverse engineer this thing to ask, you reverse engineer this thing to ask, you reverse engineer this thing to ask, you know, what know, what know, what what is the value that I bring what is the value that I bring what is the value that I bring that meets the need that somebody has? that meets the need that somebody has? that meets the need that somebody has? Well, if you're trying to build a church Well, if you're trying to build a church Well, if you're trying to build a church that the bottom line of that is you have that the bottom line of that is you have that the bottom line of that is you have the best value that there is for the the best value that there is for the the best value that there is for the greatest need that there is. greatest need that there is. greatest need that there is. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, we'll start there. It's just >> Okay. So, we'll start there. It's just >> Okay. So, we'll start there. It's just like a phone. Everybody needs to like a phone. Everybody needs to like a phone. Everybody needs to communicate. What I've got to do is communicate. What I've got to do is communicate. What I've got to do is figure out how I bring that value in a figure out how I bring that value in a figure out how I bring that value in a way that the people can realize it. a way that the people can realize it. a way that the people can realize it. a their need and b what I have to offer.

their need and b what I have to offer. their need and b what I have to offer. And it may not be the way Life Church And it may not be the way Life Church And it may not be the way Life Church does it. And that's very different than does it. And that's very different than does it. And that's very different than the way Vintage does it. Vintage is is the way Vintage does it. Vintage is is the way Vintage does it. Vintage is is is booming primarily because of Alpha. is booming primarily because of Alpha. is booming primarily because of Alpha. They do an incredible They do an incredible They do an incredible alpha program there. Incredible. alpha program there. Incredible. alpha program there. Incredible. >> So does our church. >> So does our church. >> So does our church. >> Yeah. So yeah, are the tactics have to >> Yeah. So yeah, are the tactics have to >> Yeah. So yeah, are the tactics have to be different? But of course. be different? But of course. be different? But of course. So if you want to flip the script, if So if you want to flip the script, if So if you want to flip the script, if that's your default to make excuses that's your default to make excuses that's your default to make excuses and to not and to not and to not >> you you can't you you've heard this. You >> you you can't you you've heard this. You >> you you can't you you've heard this. You can have results or excuses, but you can have results or excuses, but you can have results or excuses, but you can't have both. can't have both. can't have both. >> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. So if somebody wants >> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. So if somebody wants >> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. So if somebody wants to say, okay, that's me. I feel owned. to say, okay, that's me. I feel owned. to say, okay, that's me. I feel owned. How do I make the change? What do they How do I make the change? What do they How do I make the change? What do they do? What what are what are some steps? do? What what are what are some steps? do? What what are what are some steps? So if I was in a counseling session with So if I was in a counseling session with So if I was in a counseling session with you, Dr. Henry Cloud, what would you you, Dr. Henry Cloud, what would you you, Dr. Henry Cloud, what would you tell me to do? tell me to do? tell me to do? Well, first thing I would tell you is um Well, first thing I would tell you is um Well, first thing I would tell you is um this is not a new message this is not a new message this is not a new message that you have got to surrender.

You want to find God's will. There's one You want to find God's will. There's one passage in the Bible, you know, passage in the Bible, you know, passage in the Bible, you know, everybody says, "I want to find God's everybody says, "I want to find God's everybody says, "I want to find God's will for my life." There's there's will for my life." There's there's will for my life." There's there's there's one passage that actually tells there's one passage that actually tells there's one passage that actually tells you how to do it, you how to do it, you how to do it, and it's Romans 12. The first thing you and it's Romans 12. The first thing you and it's Romans 12. The first thing you do is just empty yourself before God. do is just empty yourself before God. do is just empty yourself before God. You become a living sacrifice, right? You become a living sacrifice, right? You become a living sacrifice, right? And you empty yourself. Say, "God, what And you empty yourself. Say, "God, what And you empty yourself. Say, "God, what I'm doing is not working. I know that I'm doing is not working. I know that I'm doing is not working. I know that you've called me to do it. It's not you've called me to do it. It's not you've called me to do it. It's not working. I am emptying myself of all of working. I am emptying myself of all of working. I am emptying myself of all of my assumptions, all of my everything, my assumptions, all of my everything, my assumptions, all of my everything, and I am here available to you." Where and I am here available to you." Where and I am here available to you." Where does it go from there? Then it says does it go from there? Then it says does it go from there? Then it says you've got to start to work on how you you've got to start to work on how you you've got to start to work on how you think about this. Your mind's got to be think about this. Your mind's got to be think about this. Your mind's got to be transformed. And a lot of times we you transformed. And a lot of times we you transformed. And a lot of times we you know it says the patterns of this world. know it says the patterns of this world. know it says the patterns of this world. Well, one of the p it's not just about Well, one of the p it's not just about Well, one of the p it's not just about you know going to movies or chewing you know going to movies or chewing you know going to movies or chewing tobacco. tobacco. tobacco. the patterns of this world have to do the patterns of this world have to do the patterns of this world have to do with the the the actual um way that that with the the the actual um way that that with the the the actual um way that that humans sometimes believe like the 10 humans sometimes believe like the 10 humans sometimes believe like the 10 spies did that I have no agency that I'm spies did that I have no agency that I'm spies did that I have no agency that I'm a victim. I mean, it goes back to Adam, a victim. I mean, it goes back to Adam, a victim. I mean, it goes back to Adam, you know, God says, "What?" Well, it's you know, God says, "What?" Well, it's you know, God says, "What?" Well, it's the woman you gave me. If you had to the woman you gave me. If you had to the woman you gave me. If you had to give me that woman, you know, she what give me that woman, you know, she what give me that woman, you know, she what does she do? She blames the serpent.

does she do? She blames the serpent. does she do? She blames the serpent. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> You know, he just my fault. Not my >> You know, he just my fault. Not my >> You know, he just my fault. Not my fault. Not my fault. fault. Not my fault. fault. Not my fault. >> So, you've really got to start to look >> So, you've really got to start to look >> So, you've really got to start to look at these these real in-depth patterns. at these these real in-depth patterns. at these these real in-depth patterns. And and it's not, you know, thinking, we And and it's not, you know, thinking, we And and it's not, you know, thinking, we have a sort of a a western view of have a sort of a a western view of have a sort of a a western view of thinking. If you look at the whole thinking. If you look at the whole thinking. If you look at the whole Bible, Bible, Bible, your thinking doesn't happen just in your thinking doesn't happen just in your thinking doesn't happen just in your mind. What did Jesus say? From the your mind. What did Jesus say? From the your mind. What did Jesus say? From the heart, evil thoughts come. Okay? As a heart, evil thoughts come. Okay? As a heart, evil thoughts come. Okay? As a man thinkketh in his heart, man thinkketh in his heart, man thinkketh in his heart, the Bible says, and we get into some the Bible says, and we get into some the Bible says, and we get into some kind of models of anthropology that you kind of models of anthropology that you kind of models of anthropology that you really have to squeeze some boxes, you really have to squeeze some boxes, you really have to squeeze some boxes, you know, to make that work. But but what we know, to make that work. But but what we know, to make that work. But but what we know for example about thinking is know for example about thinking is know for example about thinking is exactly what the Bible says that it exactly what the Bible says that it exactly what the Bible says that it doesn't just come from these conscious doesn't just come from these conscious doesn't just come from these conscious thoughts in your brain. It can also come thoughts in your brain. It can also come thoughts in your brain. It can also come from your body. I mean if you've got a from your body. I mean if you've got a from your body. I mean if you've got a hijacked hijacked hijacked autonomic nervous system from trauma autonomic nervous system from trauma autonomic nervous system from trauma well you will one of the symptoms of well you will one of the symptoms of well you will one of the symptoms of depression is negative thinking. Now we depression is negative thinking. Now we depression is negative thinking. Now we also know the negative thinking can also know the negative thinking can also know the negative thinking can affect depression but but a lot of affect depression but but a lot of affect depression but but a lot of people have never done the work on the people have never done the work on the people have never done the work on the healing that they need. You know you may healing that they need. You know you may healing that they need. You know you may be seeing your certain context in that be seeing your certain context in that be seeing your certain context in that city and what you're really seeing city and what you're really seeing city and what you're really seeing is the alcoholic home you grew up in cuz is the alcoholic home you grew up in cuz is the alcoholic home you grew up in cuz when those patterns were laid down that when those patterns were laid down that when those patterns were laid down that was your whole world was your whole world was your whole world >> you became >> you became >> you became >> Yeah. You became and a bunch of other

>> Yeah. You became and a bunch of other >> Yeah. You became and a bunch of other stuff. There's no resources available, stuff. There's no resources available, stuff. There's no resources available, for example. And if you look at a for example. And if you look at a for example. And if you look at a hoarder and a lot of a lot of leaders hoarder and a lot of a lot of leaders hoarder and a lot of a lot of leaders are hoarders, it's a big deal. Yeah. I are hoarders, it's a big deal. Yeah. I are hoarders, it's a big deal. Yeah. I wrote a book called Necessary Endings wrote a book called Necessary Endings wrote a book called Necessary Endings >> where people have to prune stuff, but >> where people have to prune stuff, but >> where people have to prune stuff, but they can't let go of the old ways, they can't let go of the old ways, they can't let go of the old ways, >> right? Not hoarders in the like I have >> right? Not hoarders in the like I have >> right? Not hoarders in the like I have way too much stuff in my house. way too much stuff in my house. way too much stuff in my house. >> No, I got maybe way too many things my >> No, I got maybe way too many things my >> No, I got maybe way too many things my church is trying to do that aren't church is trying to do that aren't church is trying to do that aren't working. [laughter] working. [laughter] working. [laughter] You know we we hoard strate but You know we we hoard strate but You know we we hoard strate but >> that kind of ho orders >> that kind of ho orders >> that kind of ho orders >> but when you look at a pruning metaphor >> but when you look at a pruning metaphor >> but when you look at a pruning metaphor in leadership what you do is in leadership what you do is in leadership what you do is >> well >> well >> well it's old 8020 you know you're you're it's old 8020 you know you're you're it's old 8020 you know you're you're doing all these things but 20% of the doing all these things but 20% of the doing all these things but 20% of the results are or 80% of the results are results are or 80% of the results are results are or 80% of the results are coming from this little corner of the coming from this little corner of the coming from this little corner of the ministry. It takes a lot of you know ministry. It takes a lot of you know ministry. It takes a lot of you know what to shut down a bunch of stuff cuz what to shut down a bunch of stuff cuz what to shut down a bunch of stuff cuz >> I've done it. It hurts. >> I've done it. It hurts. >> I've done it. It hurts. >> It hurts and people don't like it. >> It hurts and people don't like it. >> It hurts and people don't like it. people don't like it at all. But you try people don't like it at all. But you try people don't like it at all. But you try to get a leader to make a change like to get a leader to make a change like to get a leader to make a change like that and you see the hoarder mentality that and you see the hoarder mentality that and you see the hoarder mentality come back which is well but we're come back which is well but we're come back which is well but we're getting you know there's a few people getting you know there's a few people getting you know there's a few people coming to that we might I'm a hoarder coming to that we might I'm a hoarder coming to that we might I'm a hoarder say when you say throw that away say when you say throw that away say when you say throw that away >> I might need that >> I might need that >> I might need that >> in the future.

>> in the future. >> in the future. >> Yeah. Yeah. That is one of the deepest >> Yeah. Yeah. That is one of the deepest >> Yeah. Yeah. That is one of the deepest spiritual sicknesses. spiritual sicknesses. spiritual sicknesses. That is a spiritual problem. really a That is a spiritual problem. really a That is a spiritual problem. really a spiritual sickness. spiritual sickness. spiritual sickness. >> A spiritual sickness. When >> A spiritual sickness. When >> A spiritual sickness. When >> why do you call? >> why do you call? >> why do you call? >> Because we are not the supplier. >> Might need that in the future, but God >> Might need that in the future, but God >> I'm going to hold on to it. Well, >> I'm going to hold on to it. Well, >> I'm going to hold on to it. Well, Abraham left her not knowing where he Abraham left her not knowing where he Abraham left her not knowing where he was going. was going. was going. And you don't see anywhere anybody And you don't see anywhere anybody And you don't see anywhere anybody building anything building anything building anything that had everything they need to where that had everything they need to where that had everything they need to where it's going to become or what it's going it's going to become or what it's going it's going to become or what it's going to become. When they started what they to become. When they started what they to become. When they started what they had was they knew what they had and they had was they knew what they had and they had was they knew what they had and they use those and they venture out and then use those and they venture out and then use those and they venture out and then things begin to happen and we can't do things begin to happen and we can't do things begin to happen and we can't do you know that'd be nice if we had the you know that'd be nice if we had the you know that'd be nice if we had the money. Well, money. Well, money. Well, nobody ever started anything big with nobody ever started anything big with nobody ever started anything big with their own money. Dodo.

their own money. Dodo. their own money. Dodo. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> You go out and you find the donor, you >> You go out and you find the donor, you >> You go out and you find the donor, you find the investor, you find what we find the investor, you find what we find the investor, you find what we Well, that'd be great if we had the Well, that'd be great if we had the Well, that'd be great if we had the staff for that. Well, that's what staff for that. Well, that's what staff for that. Well, that's what volunteers, the what do the great great volunteers, the what do the great great volunteers, the what do the great great ministries do? They ministries do? They ministries do? They It's so You got It's so You got It's so You got >> start on a$148, you know, like >> start on a$148, you know, like >> start on a$148, you know, like >> the equipping of the saints to do the >> the equipping of the saints to do the >> the equipping of the saints to do the work of the ministry. It doesn't say work of the ministry. It doesn't say work of the ministry. It doesn't say staff. And so you you just you when you hold on And so you you just you when you hold on to stuff out of fear instead of to stuff out of fear instead of to stuff out of fear instead of stepping into fear and beginning to get stepping into fear and beginning to get stepping into fear and beginning to get moving moving moving then you know then you know then you know people want want certainty before they people want want certainty before they people want want certainty before they move. move. move. You will never have that. All you can You will never have that. All you can You will never have that. All you can have is is clarity. have is is clarity. have is is clarity. And then as you start to move the things And then as you start to move the things And then as you start to move the things begin to happen that will give you, oh, begin to happen that will give you, oh, begin to happen that will give you, oh, I I'm I'm certain this worked. Let's do I I'm I'm certain this worked. Let's do I I'm I'm certain this worked. Let's do that again. I'm certain that didn't you that again. I'm certain that didn't you that again. I'm certain that didn't you you're going to gain it. It's sort of you're going to gain it. It's sort of you're going to gain it. It's sort of like self-confidence. People would would like self-confidence. People would would like self-confidence. People would would come to a psychologist and say, "Well, I come to a psychologist and say, "Well, I come to a psychologist and say, "Well, I just need more self-confidence.

just need more self-confidence. just need more self-confidence. How can you give me more How can you give me more How can you give me more self-confidence?" And I always say I I I self-confidence?" And I always say I I I self-confidence?" And I always say I I I can't do that. can't do that. can't do that. You get confident You get confident You get confident by learning how to do something. by learning how to do something. by learning how to do something. >> So if we can get you moving and you >> So if we can get you moving and you >> So if we can get you moving and you start doing something, then we will start doing something, then we will start doing something, then we will build self-confidence and I can help you build self-confidence and I can help you build self-confidence and I can help you with the things that interfere with with the things that interfere with with the things that interfere with that, but you're not going to get it that, but you're not going to get it that, but you're not going to get it before you go. Peter's feet weren't wet before you go. Peter's feet weren't wet before you go. Peter's feet weren't wet in the boat. in the boat. in the boat. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, God, >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, God, >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, God, >> so self-confidence comes from doing. >> so self-confidence comes from doing. >> so self-confidence comes from doing. >> Let's say that's necessary, maybe not >> Let's say that's necessary, maybe not >> Let's say that's necessary, maybe not sufficient, because a lot of people do, sufficient, because a lot of people do, sufficient, because a lot of people do, but what's in their brains keep them but what's in their brains keep them but what's in their brains keep them from succeeding and that reinforces from succeeding and that reinforces from succeeding and that reinforces their failure mindset. their failure mindset. their failure mindset. So you can, you know, I I've been a So you can, you know, I I've been a So you can, you know, I I've been a lifelong competitive golfer and and when lifelong competitive golfer and and when lifelong competitive golfer and and when you're standing on the 18th TE and you're standing on the 18th TE and you're standing on the 18th TE and you're tied for the lead and the heat is you're tied for the lead and the heat is you're tied for the lead and the heat is on, you can you're doing right, but you on, you can you're doing right, but you on, you can you're doing right, but you got stuff in your head that's going to got stuff in your head that's going to got stuff in your head that's going to cause you to choke cause you to choke cause you to choke or you don't.

or you don't. or you don't. And so they got, you know, back to And so they got, you know, back to And so they got, you know, back to Romans 12, Romans 12, Romans 12, there is a renewing of the mind. there is a renewing of the mind. there is a renewing of the mind. And then what it follows from that, it's And then what it follows from that, it's And then what it follows from that, it's really, it's a fascinating passage. What really, it's a fascinating passage. What really, it's a fascinating passage. What follows is he says, "And then you will follows is he says, "And then you will follows is he says, "And then you will be able to ascertain the perfect will of be able to ascertain the perfect will of be able to ascertain the perfect will of God." All right. Now, watch this. Then God." All right. Now, watch this. Then God." All right. Now, watch this. Then what it says is immediately don't think what it says is immediately don't think what it says is immediately don't think more highly of yourself than you ought. more highly of yourself than you ought. more highly of yourself than you ought. I should look like Life Church. No, you I should look like Life Church. No, you I should look like Life Church. No, you should go to coffee at Denny's with one should go to coffee at Denny's with one should go to coffee at Denny's with one guy [laughter] guy [laughter] guy [laughter] and cast your vision. And then it goes and cast your vision. And then it goes and cast your vision. And then it goes from there. from there. from there. Figure out what your gifts are. Figure out what your gifts are. Figure out what your gifts are. And then with the grace that God has And then with the grace that God has And then with the grace that God has given you, you begin to utilize those. given you, you begin to utilize those. given you, you begin to utilize those. That path is it's almost like whoever That path is it's almost like whoever That path is it's almost like whoever wrote the Bible understood the brain. I wrote the Bible understood the brain. I wrote the Bible understood the brain. I mean that is just the way that human mean that is just the way that human mean that is just the way that human functioning functioning functioning happens. But people want the end before happens. But people want the end before happens. But people want the end before the beginning and they don't want to do the beginning and they don't want to do the beginning and they don't want to do the work on themselves the work on themselves the work on themselves that are going to produce the end.

that are going to produce the end. that are going to produce the end. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, and I mean I'm a huge fan of Craig Well, and I mean I'm a huge fan of Craig Well, and I mean I'm a huge fan of Craig and Life Church as any regular listener and Life Church as any regular listener and Life Church as any regular listener would know, but Life Church didn't set would know, but Life Church didn't set would know, but Life Church didn't set out to become out to become out to become >> 45 campuses, you know, like I was the >> 45 campuses, you know, like I was the >> 45 campuses, you know, like I was the furthest thing from Craig's mind. It's furthest thing from Craig's mind. It's furthest thing from Craig's mind. It's like I hope I don't get fired and I hope like I hope I don't get fired and I hope like I hope I don't get fired and I hope we reach people, right? we reach people, right? we reach people, right? >> You know, and then this happens. But if >> You know, and then this happens. But if >> You know, and then this happens. But if you study Craig, I've done a lot of you study Craig, I've done a lot of you study Craig, I've done a lot of events with him and and Craig events with him and and Craig events with him and and Craig has such incredible has such incredible has such incredible from a neuroscience perspective, such from a neuroscience perspective, such from a neuroscience perspective, such incredible has built into the incredible has built into the incredible has built into the organization such incredible executive organization such incredible executive organization such incredible executive functions. the rolling out of resources, functions. the rolling out of resources, functions. the rolling out of resources, time, energy, and money on a path, on a time, energy, and money on a path, on a time, energy, and money on a path, on a plan, with accountability, with plan, with accountability, with plan, with accountability, with measurement, with adaptivity, all of measurement, with adaptivity, all of measurement, with adaptivity, all of that kind of stuff. It it it's just how that kind of stuff. It it it's just how that kind of stuff. It it it's just how God designed everything. God designed everything. God designed everything. And and when people think and and and And and when people think and and and And and when people think and and and here's another big problem. You're here's another big problem. You're here's another big problem. You're asking why pastors have that, you know, asking why pastors have that, you know, asking why pastors have that, you know, or leaders have that internal or leaders have that internal or leaders have that internal experience. Well, you know, I'm not live experience. Well, you know, I'm not live experience. Well, you know, I'm not live church.

You ever watch a Netflix movie? You're You ever watch a Netflix movie? You're in a romcom, right? And they fall in in a romcom, right? And they fall in in a romcom, right? And they fall in love and you know, you're starting out love and you know, you're starting out love and you know, you're starting out and then you get about 20 minutes into and then you get about 20 minutes into and then you get about 20 minutes into it and all of a sudden he goes to the it and all of a sudden he goes to the it and all of a sudden he goes to the bathroom, his phone's left on the coffee bathroom, his phone's left on the coffee bathroom, his phone's left on the coffee table, it lights up, she looks down, and table, it lights up, she looks down, and table, it lights up, she looks down, and it's his ex texting him. it's his ex texting him. it's his ex texting him. She all of a sudden goes, "He's cheating She all of a sudden goes, "He's cheating She all of a sudden goes, "He's cheating on me." And she runs out, calls her on me." And she runs out, calls her on me." And she runs out, calls her sister, sister, sister, moves back to Minnesota, and now she's moves back to Minnesota, and now she's moves back to Minnesota, and now she's in a Hallmark movie all depressed, in a Hallmark movie all depressed, in a Hallmark movie all depressed, right? [laughter] right? [laughter] right? [laughter] And he's going, "What happened? What And he's going, "What happened? What And he's going, "What happened? What happened? This was the one and all of happened? This was the one and all of happened? This was the one and all of this." Well, if you froze, you know, you this." Well, if you froze, you know, you this." Well, if you froze, you know, you hit pause, you're looking at a square on hit pause, you're looking at a square on hit pause, you're looking at a square on the screen, right? Where it's all gone the screen, right? Where it's all gone the screen, right? Where it's all gone to hell. That's one scene in the movie. That's one scene in the movie. You keep playing the movie and then he You keep playing the movie and then he You keep playing the movie and then he hears that she's in Minnesota and his hears that she's in Minnesota and his hears that she's in Minnesota and his aunt, you know, says, "I got a flower aunt, you know, says, "I got a flower aunt, you know, says, "I got a flower shop there. Will you come act like shop there. Will you come act like shop there. Will you come act like you're you're you're >> a script?"

>> a script?" >> a script?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it [clears throat] ends up in a >> And it [clears throat] ends up in a >> And it [clears throat] ends up in a great place. great place. great place. >> Here's the problem. >> Here's the problem. >> Here's the problem. >> People look at >> People look at >> People look at some big successful ministry. some big successful ministry. some big successful ministry. You're looking at one frame in the You're looking at one frame in the You're looking at one frame in the movie. You're not seeing the frames movie. You're not seeing the frames movie. You're not seeing the frames where it was probably worse than what where it was probably worse than what where it was probably worse than what you're in right now. you're in right now. you're in right now. >> Yeah. And close to like not working and >> Yeah. And close to like not working and >> Yeah. And close to like not working and this didn't happen right. Like it's this didn't happen right. Like it's this didn't happen right. Like it's always the jagged always the jagged always the jagged >> Yeah. And what did God do with the with >> Yeah. And what did God do with the with >> Yeah. And what did God do with the with the Israelites when they're going to the Israelites when they're going to the Israelites when they're going to take the land? Don't try to think you're take the land? Don't try to think you're take the land? Don't try to think you're going to all get it at once. take a going to all get it at once. take a going to all get it at once. take a little at a time because you got to get little at a time because you got to get little at a time because you got to get strong enough from what that provides strong enough from what that provides strong enough from what that provides you and the skills that that provides you and the skills that that provides you and the skills that that provides you to take the next step. So don't you to take the next step. So don't you to take the next step. So don't think more highly of yourself than you think more highly of yourself than you think more highly of yourself than you ought. It's back to the scriptures. One ought. It's back to the scriptures. One ought. It's back to the scriptures. One step at a time. This episode is brought step at a time. This episode is brought step at a time. This episode is brought to you by Blay. As a pastor, you carry a to you by Blay. As a pastor, you carry a to you by Blay. As a pastor, you carry a lot of responsibility, especially when lot of responsibility, especially when lot of responsibility, especially when it comes to finances. People trust you it comes to finances. People trust you it comes to finances. People trust you to steward resources wisely. And I know to steward resources wisely. And I know to steward resources wisely. And I know that's something you don't take lightly, that's something you don't take lightly, that's something you don't take lightly, but sometimes the spreadsheets and the but sometimes the spreadsheets and the but sometimes the spreadsheets and the bookkeeping can start taking more time bookkeeping can start taking more time bookkeeping can start taking more time than the work you're actually called to than the work you're actually called to than the work you're actually called to do, right? Which is leading your church, do, right? Which is leading your church, do, right? Which is leading your church, caring for your community, and spreading caring for your community, and spreading caring for your community, and spreading the gospel. Fortunately, our friends at the gospel. Fortunately, our friends at the gospel. Fortunately, our friends at Blay have a solution. Ble provides Blay have a solution. Ble provides Blay have a solution. Ble provides vetted US-based financial experts who vetted US-based financial experts who vetted US-based financial experts who partner with pastors to bring clarity, partner with pastors to bring clarity, partner with pastors to bring clarity, confidence, and peace of mind around

confidence, and peace of mind around confidence, and peace of mind around church finances so you can focus on the church finances so you can focus on the church finances so you can focus on the mission, not the numbers. Also, they are mission, not the numbers. Also, they are mission, not the numbers. Also, they are giving away downloads of their resource, giving away downloads of their resource, giving away downloads of their resource, The Future of Financial Leadership, The Future of Financial Leadership, The Future of Financial Leadership, absolutely free. This guide discusses absolutely free. This guide discusses absolutely free. This guide discusses when AI can save you time, when human when AI can save you time, when human when AI can save you time, when human insight is non-negotiable, and how to insight is non-negotiable, and how to insight is non-negotiable, and how to balance the two effectively across your balance the two effectively across your balance the two effectively across your financial operations. So, to claim your financial operations. So, to claim your financial operations. So, to claim your free download, text the word Carrie, my free download, text the word Carrie, my free download, text the word Carrie, my name, to 55123. That's C A R E Y, to name, to 55123. That's C A R E Y, to name, to 55123. That's C A R E Y, to 55123. Reclaim your time and your impact 55123. Reclaim your time and your impact 55123. Reclaim your time and your impact with Blay. I'm so glad you mentioned with Blay. I'm so glad you mentioned with Blay. I'm so glad you mentioned Necessary Endings. I refer leaders to Necessary Endings. I refer leaders to Necessary Endings. I refer leaders to that book all the time. It's one of my that book all the time. It's one of my that book all the time. It's one of my favorites. You've written some great favorites. You've written some great favorites. You've written some great books. One of the problems that I hear books. One of the problems that I hear books. One of the problems that I hear of regularly, and I don't know whether of regularly, and I don't know whether of regularly, and I don't know whether this is just a season we're in, but in this is just a season we're in, but in this is just a season we're in, but in conversations I'm having with pastors in conversations I'm having with pastors in conversations I'm having with pastors in um DMs I get, here's a scenario. All um DMs I get, here's a scenario. All um DMs I get, here's a scenario. All right. senior pastor's late 50s, mid60s, right. senior pastor's late 50s, mid60s, right. senior pastor's late 50s, mid60s, finds a successor in his 30s or 40s, finds a successor in his 30s or 40s, finds a successor in his 30s or 40s, says, "You know what? You're the person.

says, "You know what? You're the person. says, "You know what? You're the person. I'm going to hand things over to you." I'm going to hand things over to you." I'm going to hand things over to you." So, we're going to do a succession. And So, we're going to do a succession. And So, we're going to do a succession. And this is crazy. Often it's like a 5 to this is crazy. Often it's like a 5 to this is crazy. Often it's like a 5 to sevenyear plan. But then what happens is sevenyear plan. But then what happens is sevenyear plan. But then what happens is senior pastor, okay, it'll happen in senior pastor, okay, it'll happen in senior pastor, okay, it'll happen in 2026, but then gets cold feet and then 2026, but then gets cold feet and then 2026, but then gets cold feet and then says, "All right, we're going to we're says, "All right, we're going to we're says, "All right, we're going to we're going to give I'm going to do this for going to give I'm going to do this for going to give I'm going to do this for another year or so." So you just sit another year or so." So you just sit another year or so." So you just sit tight and the number of nextgen leaders tight and the number of nextgen leaders tight and the number of nextgen leaders who come to me with this scenario, it's who come to me with this scenario, it's who come to me with this scenario, it's got to be statistically significant to got to be statistically significant to got to be statistically significant to the point where the senior pastor, the the point where the senior pastor, the the point where the senior pastor, the OG, so to speak, can't go, isn't going, OG, so to speak, can't go, isn't going, OG, so to speak, can't go, isn't going, and they're just left dangling. And some and they're just left dangling. And some and they're just left dangling. And some of them end up leaving. Some of them are of them end up leaving. Some of them are of them end up leaving. Some of them are like, "Well, he said one more year, two like, "Well, he said one more year, two like, "Well, he said one more year, two more years. Should I just hang on?" In more years. Should I just hang on?" In more years. Should I just hang on?" In that scenario, I want you to break that that scenario, I want you to break that that scenario, I want you to break that one down a little bit because it's such one down a little bit because it's such one down a little bit because it's such an a frequent flyer issue. Now, let's an a frequent flyer issue. Now, let's an a frequent flyer issue. Now, let's talk about the senior pastor who says, talk about the senior pastor who says, talk about the senior pastor who says, "I'm gonna leave at some point. You're "I'm gonna leave at some point. You're "I'm gonna leave at some point. You're the next gen leader. I'm trusting it the next gen leader. I'm trusting it the next gen leader. I'm trusting it to." And then is all fuzzy about the to." And then is all fuzzy about the to." And then is all fuzzy about the timeline and keeps extending it. What timeline and keeps extending it. What timeline and keeps extending it. What would you say to that senior pastor?

would you say to that senior pastor? would you say to that senior pastor? Like, what is going on in his or her Like, what is going on in his or her Like, what is going on in his or her mind about not relinquishing leadership? mind about not relinquishing leadership? mind about not relinquishing leadership? Well, the first thing I would say is Well, the first thing I would say is Well, the first thing I would say is where is your board? [laughter] where is your board? [laughter] where is your board? [laughter] >> Yes, good question. Good question. >> Yes, good question. Good question. >> Yes, good question. Good question. Where's your board? Where's your board? Where's your board? >> There's a term in the Bible called >> There's a term in the Bible called >> There's a term in the Bible called overseer. overseer. overseer. You know, you walk into a church You know, you walk into a church You know, you walk into a church squabble squabble squabble with the board and certainly the senior with the board and certainly the senior with the board and certainly the senior pastor is going to going to be in there. pastor is going to going to be in there. pastor is going to going to be in there. One of the first things I ask and I I do One of the first things I ask and I I do One of the first things I ask and I I do my little 3x5 card thing where I say, my little 3x5 card thing where I say, my little 3x5 card thing where I say, "Okay, um I want everybody to answer "Okay, um I want everybody to answer "Okay, um I want everybody to answer this question and then we're going to this question and then we're going to this question and then we're going to share our answers. share our answers. share our answers. Does a senior pastor serve at the Does a senior pastor serve at the Does a senior pastor serve at the pleasure of the board or does the board pleasure of the board or does the board pleasure of the board or does the board serve at the pleasure of the senior serve at the pleasure of the senior serve at the pleasure of the senior pastor?" And you will get different answers and And you will get different answers and then I'll look at him and say, "Any then I'll look at him and say, "Any then I'll look at him and say, "Any questions why we have a problem here?"

questions why we have a problem here?" questions why we have a problem here?" And I think it's the second scenario a And I think it's the second scenario a And I think it's the second scenario a lot in those cases where the board is lot in those cases where the board is lot in those cases where the board is just whatever the senior pastor wants. just whatever the senior pastor wants. just whatever the senior pastor wants. >> And you just said it, he's decided to >> And you just said it, he's decided to >> And you just said it, he's decided to hold on. hold on. hold on. >> So what we've got in a lot of scenarios >> So what we've got in a lot of scenarios >> So what we've got in a lot of scenarios is very similar to a family business, is very similar to a family business, is very similar to a family business, right? And so you got a founder, you right? And so you got a founder, you right? And so you got a founder, you know, mom or dad built built this know, mom or dad built built this know, mom or dad built built this company and now you got G2 coming in. company and now you got G2 coming in. company and now you got G2 coming in. Well, G2, you know, now they're 40 years Well, G2, you know, now they're 40 years Well, G2, you know, now they're 40 years old. old. old. And there's this feeling over them. And there's this feeling over them. And there's this feeling over them. And it's a human it's a human dynamic. And it's a human it's a human dynamic. And it's a human it's a human dynamic. You know, God is built into the created You know, God is built into the created You know, God is built into the created order. There's there's generational order. There's there's generational order. There's there's generational transfers, transfers, transfers, leadership of power. You see it all the leadership of power. You see it all the leadership of power. You see it all the way through the scriptures. fascinating way through the scriptures. fascinating way through the scriptures. fascinating passage in Galatians 4 where where Paul passage in Galatians 4 where where Paul passage in Galatians 4 where where Paul says when we were children we were under says when we were children we were under says when we were children we were under guardians and managers guardians and managers guardians and managers until the date set by the father and until the date set by the father and until the date set by the father and then later they invented the bar mitzvah then later they invented the bar mitzvah then later they invented the bar mitzvah and the bot mitzvah and everybody's got and the bot mitzvah and everybody's got and the bot mitzvah and everybody's got this right of passage but the two terms this right of passage but the two terms this right of passage but the two terms here are guardians and managers and so here are guardians and managers and so here are guardians and managers and so if somebody if that path has not been if somebody if that path has not been if somebody if that path has not been set to where there's going to be a bar set to where there's going to be a bar set to where there's going to be a bar mitzvah one mitzvah one mitzvah one >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And now you are, you know, >> And now you are, you know, >> And now you are, you know, >> an adult.

>> an adult. >> an adult. >> Yeah. What the problem there is you >> Yeah. What the problem there is you >> Yeah. What the problem there is you you've got a vague situation you've got a vague situation you've got a vague situation where there is no there is no path where there is no there is no path where there is no there is no path that's been laid out. You know what he that's been laid out. You know what he that's been laid out. You know what he said was way back, you're going to be said was way back, you're going to be said was way back, you're going to be the guy. Well, that might be a problem the guy. Well, that might be a problem the guy. Well, that might be a problem in and of itself in and of itself in and of itself because because because first of all, did he have the authority first of all, did he have the authority first of all, did he have the authority to do that? You know, is the board to do that? You know, is the board to do that? You know, is the board involved? is all this. But but to name involved? is all this. But but to name involved? is all this. But but to name somebody um and have that host like the somebody um and have that host like the somebody um and have that host like the son one day son this is all going to be son one day son this is all going to be son one day son this is all going to be yours. you know this family business yours. you know this family business yours. you know this family business that to name them as opposed to having a that to name them as opposed to having a that to name them as opposed to having a plan where where you are developing call it a handful a few people call it a handful a few people with no promises to anybody and you're with no promises to anybody and you're with no promises to anybody and you're having to fight the uh you've got the having to fight the uh you've got the having to fight the uh you've got the culture that that fights you're not culture that that fights you're not culture that that fights you're not trying to build competition you don't trying to build competition you don't trying to build competition you don't want to do that But you're developing want to do that But you're developing want to do that But you're developing skills and you're giving them lanes to skills and you're giving them lanes to skills and you're giving them lanes to run in where it's going to emerge who run in where it's going to emerge who run in where it's going to emerge who this should be. And then when that this should be. And then when that this should be. And then when that starts to become clear, then starts to become clear, then starts to become clear, then you've got to have some sort of a a plan you've got to have some sort of a a plan you've got to have some sort of a a plan and a a timeline of this because in and a a timeline of this because in and a a timeline of this because in family businesses, in even public family businesses, in even public family businesses, in even public companies, we've seen this recently companies, we've seen this recently companies, we've seen this recently where they come back.

where they come back. where they come back. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Come back for the >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Come back for the >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Come back for the third. third. third. >> Come back. Come back. >> Who's in charge? >> Who's in charge? >> So, there's a who's in charge. If you >> So, there's a who's in charge. If you >> So, there's a who's in charge. If you know, I imagine there's a few senior know, I imagine there's a few senior know, I imagine there's a few senior pastors, leaders, CEOs watching who are pastors, leaders, CEOs watching who are pastors, leaders, CEOs watching who are kind of owned by this conversation now kind of owned by this conversation now kind of owned by this conversation now going, "Yep, I did that. I said I was going, "Yep, I did that. I said I was going, "Yep, I did that. I said I was going to go last year. I didn't go. Said going to go last year. I didn't go. Said going to go last year. I didn't go. Said I was going to go three years ago. I I was going to go three years ago. I I was going to go three years ago. I extended it." What would you say to that extended it." What would you say to that extended it." What would you say to that leader leader leader >> who's [clears throat] already doing it? >> who's [clears throat] already doing it? >> who's [clears throat] already doing it? >> Yeah. who's in the middle of like a >> Yeah. who's in the middle of like a >> Yeah. who's in the middle of like a delayed succession. delayed succession. delayed succession. >> Well, the first thing I would I would >> Well, the first thing I would I would >> Well, the first thing I would I would say is is say is is say is is and who am [clears throat] I without and who am [clears throat] I without and who am [clears throat] I without knowing their circumstances? No, it may knowing their circumstances? No, it may knowing their circumstances? No, it may be best if they stick around for a be best if they stick around for a be best if they stick around for a while. while. while. >> Okay? >> Okay? >> Okay? >> You know, there are circumstances where >> You know, there are circumstances where >> You know, there are circumstances where um you know, you don't change horses in um you know, you don't change horses in um you know, you don't change horses in the middle of a the middle of a the middle of a a river that's all of a sudden got a river that's all of a sudden got a river that's all of a sudden got flooded, you know. So, so you can make flooded, you know. So, so you can make flooded, you know. So, so you can make the case for that. But in the kind the case for that. But in the kind the case for that. But in the kind you're talking about where it's just you're talking about where it's just you're talking about where it's just founderitis and they founderitis and they founderitis and they >> Yes. stick sticky fingers and and we see >> Yes. stick sticky fingers and and we see >> Yes. stick sticky fingers and and we see I I work with a lot of um uh I I work with a lot of um uh I I work with a lot of um uh family businesses that you know you've family businesses that you know you've family businesses that you know you've you've got you've got kids that are you've got you've got kids that are you've got you've got kids that are well into the place where they should be well into the place where they should be well into the place where they should be running something, right? But you got running something, right? But you got running something, right? But you got founderitis. So the first thing I would founderitis. So the first thing I would founderitis. So the first thing I would really want them to do to find out what really want them to do to find out what really want them to do to find out what are we talking about here is the driver are we talking about here is the driver are we talking about here is the driver of this. I want them to look in the

of this. I want them to look in the of this. I want them to look in the mirror mirror mirror and ask and ask and ask themselves, themselves, themselves, do I believe this church is God's or is do I believe this church is God's or is do I believe this church is God's or is it mine? >> And in the scenarios I'm getting, it >> And in the scenarios I'm getting, it appears to be the senior pastor's appears to be the senior pastor's appears to be the senior pastor's kingdom. The board serves at the kingdom. The board serves at the kingdom. The board serves at the pleasure of the senior pastor to the pleasure of the senior pastor to the pleasure of the senior pastor to the whims of the senior pastor. It's not, oh whims of the senior pastor. It's not, oh whims of the senior pastor. It's not, oh wow, everybody here, including the wow, everybody here, including the wow, everybody here, including the successor, thinks you should hang on for successor, thinks you should hang on for successor, thinks you should hang on for another year or two until we get through another year or two until we get through another year or two until we get through this season. It seems to be that this season. It seems to be that this season. It seems to be that founderitis problem. There's a lot of founderitis problem. There's a lot of founderitis problem. There's a lot of that and and it's not just in churches. that and and it's not just in churches. that and and it's not just in churches. You see it in companies. You see it. But You see it in companies. You see it. But You see it in companies. You see it. But here's your problem. Part of the here's your problem. Part of the here's your problem. Part of the responsibility of a leader is always responsibility of a leader is always responsibility of a leader is always always always to you are building always always to you are building always always to you are building something that can outlast you.

something that can outlast you. something that can outlast you. And that should deserve And that should deserve And that should deserve going way back. that should deserve in going way back. that should deserve in going way back. that should deserve in time that you know five time that you know five time that you know five years four years ago that should deserve years four years ago that should deserve years four years ago that should deserve a focused amount of your attention is a focused amount of your attention is a focused amount of your attention is developing leaders. It's one of the most developing leaders. It's one of the most developing leaders. It's one of the most important thing a leader can do. I was important thing a leader can do. I was important thing a leader can do. I was was doing um u a leadership event with was doing um u a leadership event with was doing um u a leadership event with Jack Welch one time and um and when we Jack Welch one time and um and when we Jack Welch one time and um and when we started I I I was interviewing him and started I I I was interviewing him and started I I I was interviewing him and and I said so before we get into this and I said so before we get into this and I said so before we get into this >> Jack Welch was the former CEO of of >> Jack Welch was the former CEO of of >> Jack Welch was the former CEO of of General Electric. General Electric. General Electric. >> Yeah. He's the one that took it from a >> Yeah. He's the one that took it from a >> Yeah. He's the one that took it from a little to the, you know, biggest thing little to the, you know, biggest thing little to the, you know, biggest thing in the world, right? And I said, I read in the world, right? And I said, I read in the world, right? And I said, I read somewhere that you spent 30% of your somewhere that you spent 30% of your somewhere that you spent 30% of your time as CEO time as CEO time as CEO teaching leadership teaching leadership teaching leadership within the company. within the company. within the company. And if he had hair, I thought it was it And if he had hair, I thought it was it And if he had hair, I thought it was it would catch on fire. He almost came out would catch on fire. He almost came out would catch on fire. He almost came out of his chair. He said, "That is of his chair. He said, "That is of his chair. He said, "That is absolutely not true." I said, "It absolutely not true." I said, "It absolutely not true." I said, "It sounded like a lot to me." He goes, "It sounded like a lot to me." He goes, "It sounded like a lot to me." He goes, "It was 60."

was 60." was 60." >> Wow. Wow. >> Wow. Wow. >> Wow. Wow. >> Building, preparing, >> Building, preparing, >> Building, preparing, >> building and preparing. >> building and preparing. >> building and preparing. We don't send We don't send We don't send Navy Seals Navy Seals Navy Seals out on a mission out on a mission out on a mission without a lot of development that's gone without a lot of development that's gone without a lot of development that's gone on before. And when you are keeping, you on before. And when you are keeping, you on before. And when you are keeping, you know, look at the back to the Bible. know, look at the back to the Bible. know, look at the back to the Bible. What is the model of authority What is the model of authority What is the model of authority that Jesus did? that Jesus did? that Jesus did? The role of the authority in this regard The role of the authority in this regard The role of the authority in this regard is the person with authority is the person with authority is the person with authority is all authority has been given to me. is all authority has been given to me. is all authority has been given to me. And what did he do? He passed it on. But And what did he do? He passed it on. But And what did he do? He passed it on. But he didn't pass it on to an 18-year-old he didn't pass it on to an 18-year-old he didn't pass it on to an 18-year-old to go scale Osama bin Laden's wall day to go scale Osama bin Laden's wall day to go scale Osama bin Laden's wall day one. What he did was he built them up one. What he did was he built them up one. What he did was he built them up gradually giving them more and more gradually giving them more and more gradually giving them more and more authority over certain areas of life authority over certain areas of life authority over certain areas of life until until until he could go away.

he could go away. he could go away. And that that is a big deal for leaders. And that that is a big deal for leaders. And that that is a big deal for leaders. And gosh, what what could be a better And gosh, what what could be a better And gosh, what what could be a better moment for a leader? moment for a leader? moment for a leader? That first day that that Timothy That first day that that Timothy That first day that that Timothy that he built that he built that he built steps up and this thing is thriving. I steps up and this thing is thriving. I steps up and this thing is thriving. I mean, what a your legacy is not your mean, what a your legacy is not your mean, what a your legacy is not your name. It's the impact. name. It's the impact. name. It's the impact. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And a lot of people think it's their >> And a lot of people think it's their >> And a lot of people think it's their name. name. name. Nobody's going to remember you. I Nobody's going to remember you. I Nobody's going to remember you. I remember when I remember when I remember when I >> There are people running around right >> There are people running around right >> There are people running around right now today listening to this on their now today listening to this on their now today listening to this on their phones phones phones or watching it on a computer. or watching it on a computer. or watching it on a computer. They are experiencing the legacy of Bill They are experiencing the legacy of Bill They are experiencing the legacy of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and they don't even Gates and Steve Jobs and they don't even Gates and Steve Jobs and they don't even know who those guys are. I mean, they've know who those guys are. I mean, they've know who those guys are. I mean, they've heard their names. That's your legacy. heard their names. That's your legacy. heard their names. That's your legacy. hundfold fruit hundfold fruit hundfold fruit that you may be the ceiling on.

that you may be the ceiling on. that you may be the ceiling on. Unless the wheat falls to the ground and Unless the wheat falls to the ground and Unless the wheat falls to the ground and dies, dies, dies, it can't produce the hundfold fruit. And it can't produce the hundfold fruit. And it can't produce the hundfold fruit. And if you can't let your role die, if you can't let your role die, if you can't let your role die, you're the ceiling. you're the ceiling. you're the ceiling. And you'll be accountable for that. And you'll be accountable for that. And you'll be accountable for that. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that takes a certain >> Yeah. Yeah. And that takes a certain >> Yeah. Yeah. And that takes a certain level of of level of of level of of I don't know groundedness. Like I I don't know groundedness. Like I I don't know groundedness. Like I remember when I was stepping out of the remember when I was stepping out of the remember when I was stepping out of the lead pastor role and even the the lead pastor role and even the the lead pastor role and even the the regular teaching pastor role had a few regular teaching pastor role had a few regular teaching pastor role had a few conversations. I remember talking to conversations. I remember talking to conversations. I remember talking to Gordon McDonald about it and I said, Gordon McDonald about it and I said, Gordon McDonald about it and I said, "What did you learn?" Like when he "What did you learn?" Like when he "What did you learn?" Like when he stepped down as a pastor in his 60s, he stepped down as a pastor in his 60s, he stepped down as a pastor in his 60s, he said, "They forget you quickly." said, "They forget you quickly." said, "They forget you quickly." And And And he's absolutely right. he's absolutely right. he's absolutely right. >> Good. I [clears throat] can go to our >> Good. I [clears throat] can go to our >> Good. I [clears throat] can go to our church and 70% of the people have no church and 70% of the people have no church and 70% of the people have no idea who I am. And that's not bad. idea who I am. And that's not bad. idea who I am. And that's not bad. >> No, that's way good. >> No, that's way good. >> No, that's way good. Way good. Way good. Way good. >> Yeah. What would you say to >> Yeah. What would you say to >> Yeah. What would you say to >> We want the We want the Constitution to >> We want the We want the Constitution to >> We want the We want the Constitution to last longer than last longer than last longer than >> the president.

>> the president. >> the president. >> Those >> Those >> Those guys in the white wigs that, you know, guys in the white wigs that, you know, guys in the white wigs that, you know, wrote it. wrote it. wrote it. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And we remember them, you know. We and >> And we remember them, you know. We and >> And we remember them, you know. We and the Bible says you put down some stones the Bible says you put down some stones the Bible says you put down some stones here. Remember when this happened, this here. Remember when this happened, this here. Remember when this happened, this happened that. But what we're talking happened that. But what we're talking happened that. But what we're talking about is what they built. And and Jesus about is what they built. And and Jesus about is what they built. And and Jesus is building a church that it didn't is building a church that it didn't is building a church that it didn't start with you and it's not going to end start with you and it's not going to end start with you and it's not going to end with you. So what prevents a leader from with you. So what prevents a leader from with you. So what prevents a leader from accessing that headsp space where accessing that headsp space where accessing that headsp space where they're like, "Yeah, I hope they forget they're like, "Yeah, I hope they forget they're like, "Yeah, I hope they forget me and I hope this thing does goes me and I hope this thing does goes me and I hope this thing does goes bigger and better without me than it did bigger and better without me than it did bigger and better without me than it did with me." Like what is it that prevents with me." Like what is it that prevents with me." Like what is it that prevents a a founder or a longtime leader from a a founder or a longtime leader from a a founder or a longtime leader from being in that space where they're good being in that space where they're good being in that space where they're good with that? with that? with that? >> They're mothers. >> They're mothers. >> They're mothers. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Okay. Well, all right. Here we go. >> Okay. Well, all right. Here we go. >> Okay. Well, all right. Here we go. >> Are their fathers >> Are their fathers >> Are their fathers >> fasten your seat belt goes back to >> fasten your seat belt goes back to >> fasten your seat belt goes back to childhood. childhood. childhood. >> No. Well, it doesn't I I'm just kind of >> No. Well, it doesn't I I'm just kind of >> No. Well, it doesn't I I'm just kind of the psychologist joke. the psychologist joke. the psychologist joke. >> That's a [laughter] good answer. >> That's a [laughter] good answer. >> That's a [laughter] good answer. >> But but what I'm really thinking >> But but what I'm really thinking >> But but what I'm really thinking underneath that, okay, what prevents underneath that, okay, what prevents underneath that, okay, what prevents them? them? them? >> Sure. Um it it's [laughter] >> Sure. Um it it's [laughter] >> Sure. Um it it's [laughter] number one would be narcissism.

number one would be narcissism. number one would be narcissism. Number two would be uh fear. Number two would be uh fear. Number two would be uh fear. Fear of now what? Fear of now what? Fear of now what? Number three be a vacuum in their lives. Number three be a vacuum in their lives. Number three be a vacuum in their lives. What are they stepping into? A lot of What are they stepping into? A lot of What are they stepping into? A lot of them who they are, what they do, all them who they are, what they do, all them who they are, what they do, all their relationships, etc., etc. their relationships, etc., etc. their relationships, etc., etc. um they let go of that role, they lose um they let go of that role, they lose um they let go of that role, they lose it all. They haven't built it all. They haven't built it all. They haven't built um community that um community that um community that empowers them. They haven't built empowers them. They haven't built empowers them. They haven't built outside activities. They haven't built outside activities. They haven't built outside activities. They haven't built networks or relationships. Haven't networks or relationships. Haven't networks or relationships. Haven't built, you know, dad gum it, I hope built, you know, dad gum it, I hope built, you know, dad gum it, I hope everybody has this experience. everybody has this experience. everybody has this experience. The thing that bugs me most about The thing that bugs me most about The thing that bugs me most about what I do is all the different things I what I do is all the different things I what I do is all the different things I didn't get to do didn't get to do didn't get to do because I do what I do. because I do what I do. because I do what I do. You know what I'm saying? It it's like You know what I'm saying? It it's like You know what I'm saying? It it's like it's like you you're you're in this job, it's like you you're you're in this job, it's like you you're you're in this job, but gosh, wouldn't it be fun to if I but gosh, wouldn't it be fun to if I but gosh, wouldn't it be fun to if I would have liked this career or that would have liked this career or that would have liked this career or that career or that career?

career or that career? career or that career? >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> But we have to choose one. The point >> But we have to choose one. The point >> But we have to choose one. The point being that it's sort of like when um being that it's sort of like when um being that it's sort of like when um we're recent empty nesters a few years we're recent empty nesters a few years we're recent empty nesters a few years ago. Our our daughters are 23 and 25 and ago. Our our daughters are 23 and 25 and ago. Our our daughters are 23 and 25 and and when Lucy left home, the little one, and when Lucy left home, the little one, and when Lucy left home, the little one, Tori and I are in the kitchen Tori and I are in the kitchen Tori and I are in the kitchen and you know, emptiness is really hard and you know, emptiness is really hard and you know, emptiness is really hard for some people, right? So, we're we're for some people, right? So, we're we're for some people, right? So, we're we're in the kitchen about a week later and in the kitchen about a week later and in the kitchen about a week later and she looks we're making dinner and she she looks we're making dinner and she she looks we're making dinner and she looks up and says, "So, am I supposed to looks up and says, "So, am I supposed to looks up and says, "So, am I supposed to feel bad that I kind of like this?" feel bad that I kind of like this?" feel bad that I kind of like this?" [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> We had a good time, too. We love our >> We had a good time, too. We love our >> We had a good time, too. We love our kids, but we we're having a good time. kids, but we we're having a good time. kids, but we we're having a good time. >> And a lot of them don't have any good >> And a lot of them don't have any good >> And a lot of them don't have any good times when they leave that role. They're times when they leave that role. They're times when they leave that role. They're they're looking into a vacuum they're looking into a vacuum they're looking into a vacuum and so they hold on and they get afraid and so they hold on and they get afraid and so they hold on and they get afraid and, you know, get get stuck. There's and, you know, get get stuck. There's and, you know, get get stuck. There's the the other thing is I think a lot of the the other thing is I think a lot of the the other thing is I think a lot of times the the times the the times the the um the millu around them has not really um the millu around them has not really um the millu around them has not really prepared them to um see their the legacy prepared them to um see their the legacy prepared them to um see their the legacy of this church as of this church as of this church as uh uh uh the appreciation and the gratitude that the appreciation and the gratitude that the appreciation and the gratitude that that people have. So really all they that people have. So really all they that people have. So really all they have is what they've got now have is what they've got now have is what they've got now and they're not talking. Everybody and they're not talking. Everybody and they're not talking. Everybody should be talking about that when you should be talking about that when you should be talking about that when you move on. And and the big problem is you

move on. And and the big problem is you move on. And and the big problem is you have put a ceiling on the future when have put a ceiling on the future when have put a ceiling on the future when you your leaders can't can't take over. you your leaders can't can't take over. you your leaders can't can't take over. They're going to leave. They're going to leave. They're going to leave. >> Well, and that that gets me to the next >> Well, and that that gets me to the next >> Well, and that that gets me to the next part because I'm just going to keep when part because I'm just going to keep when part because I'm just going to keep when I get that DM, I'll just send them to I get that DM, I'll just send them to I get that DM, I'll just send them to this part of our conversation today. this part of our conversation today. this part of our conversation today. What do you do for the Timothys who are What do you do for the Timothys who are What do you do for the Timothys who are not given the opportunity to lead? Who not given the opportunity to lead? Who not given the opportunity to lead? Who were promised it was going to happen and were promised it was going to happen and were promised it was going to happen and now the timeline's indefinite or was now the timeline's indefinite or was now the timeline's indefinite or was supposed to be last year. Still hasn't supposed to be last year. Still hasn't supposed to be last year. Still hasn't happened and they're waiting. They're happened and they're waiting. They're happened and they're waiting. They're 38. They're 43. Some of them are 50 38. They're 43. Some of them are 50 38. They're 43. Some of them are 50 >> and they're still hanging on waiting for >> and they're still hanging on waiting for >> and they're still hanging on waiting for that founding, you know, archetype that founding, you know, archetype that founding, you know, archetype to finally step aside and throw the to finally step aside and throw the to finally step aside and throw the reins to them. What is your advice for reins to them. What is your advice for reins to them. What is your advice for them? I would I would ask them um do you them? I would I would ask them um do you them? I would I would ask them um do you do you really feel like that that God do you really feel like that that God do you really feel like that that God has equipped you and you are equipped in has equipped you and you are equipped in has equipped you and you are equipped in your own experience um to be a senior your own experience um to be a senior your own experience um to be a senior and that's what you really want to do. and that's what you really want to do. and that's what you really want to do. So get clear about this. Okay. Well, if So get clear about this. Okay. Well, if So get clear about this. Okay. Well, if that's true then you are not it's not that's true then you are not it's not that's true then you are not it's not going to happen here. What are you going going to happen here. What are you going going to happen here. What are you going to do?

to do? to do? >> Yeah. Call it like it's not happening. >> Yeah. Call it like it's not happening. >> Yeah. Call it like it's not happening. It's not happening. [clears throat] It's not happening. [clears throat] It's not happening. [clears throat] And that's not a bad thing. And that's not a bad thing. And that's not a bad thing. >> I mean, >> I mean, >> I mean, you that's multiplication anyway. you that's multiplication anyway. you that's multiplication anyway. Go start something. Go start something. Go start something. >> A lot of them feel bad. They're like, >> A lot of them feel bad. They're like, >> A lot of them feel bad. They're like, "Well, [clears throat] I'm going to "Well, [clears throat] I'm going to "Well, [clears throat] I'm going to leave. leave. leave. >> Go somewhere else high and dry. You >> Go somewhere else high and dry. You >> Go somewhere else high and dry. You know, this is our church." I've heard know, this is our church." I've heard know, this is our church." I've heard that. that. that. >> Of course. You know, when when people >> Of course. You know, when when people >> Of course. You know, when when people separate from parents at 18 like you're separate from parents at 18 like you're separate from parents at 18 like you're supposed to and find your own life, supposed to and find your own life, supposed to and find your own life, then a lot of them feel bad, you know, then a lot of them feel bad, you know, then a lot of them feel bad, you know, and all this all this kind of stuff. And and all this all this kind of stuff. And and all this all this kind of stuff. And so that's why adulthood is getting, you so that's why adulthood is getting, you so that's why adulthood is getting, you know, you're supposed to become an adult know, you're supposed to become an adult know, you're supposed to become an adult at 18 years old. at 18 years old. at 18 years old. And in the Bible, you know, and and you And in the Bible, you know, and and you And in the Bible, you know, and and you can argue this, but you know, can argue this, but you know, can argue this, but you know, neurological, oh, they don't have their neurological, oh, they don't have their neurological, oh, they don't have their brain till they're 25. Well, so much of brain till they're 25. Well, so much of brain till they're 25. Well, so much of that is so skewed [clears throat] like that is so skewed [clears throat] like that is so skewed [clears throat] like crazy like like somebody can't keep crazy like like somebody can't keep crazy like like somebody can't keep their pants pants on at 15 because their their pants pants on at 15 because their their pants pants on at 15 because their [laughter] final ego development isn't [laughter] final ego development isn't [laughter] final ego development isn't consolidated. So, come on. But the consolidated. So, come on. But the consolidated. So, come on. But the because it takes it takes separating and because it takes it takes separating and because it takes it takes separating and individuating actually to consolidate individuating actually to consolidate individuating actually to consolidate that. So, that's why we have you uh that. So, that's why we have you uh that. So, that's why we have you uh people should be adults now. that are, people should be adults now. that are, people should be adults now. that are, you know, they're 40 years old on their you know, they're 40 years old on their you know, they're 40 years old on their mother's couch with the video game.

mother's couch with the video game. mother's couch with the video game. You've got to you got to get out there You've got to you got to get out there You've got to you got to get out there and do something. And and I and they and do something. And and I and they and do something. And and I and they say, "Well, I don't feel ready." And say, "Well, I don't feel ready." And say, "Well, I don't feel ready." And again, yeah, you you're ready to start. again, yeah, you you're ready to start. again, yeah, you you're ready to start. You're not ready to be at the end, but You're not ready to be at the end, but You're not ready to be at the end, but you'll learn that as you go out. you'll learn that as you go out. you'll learn that as you go out. >> Yeah. You you'll get it as you go. >> Yeah. You you'll get it as you go. >> Yeah. You you'll get it as you go. >> But I would say this, the most important >> But I would say this, the most important >> But I would say this, the most important thing that you can do is is nobody steps thing that you can do is is nobody steps thing that you can do is is nobody steps out into that journey alone. out into that journey alone. out into that journey alone. The most important thing you can do is The most important thing you can do is The most important thing you can do is who you have around you to counsel you, who you have around you to counsel you, who you have around you to counsel you, to help you, you know, to guide you. to help you, you know, to guide you. to help you, you know, to guide you. But go. What are you waiting on? Go. But go. What are you waiting on? Go. But go. What are you waiting on? Go. >> One of the other challenges I see in the >> One of the other challenges I see in the >> One of the other challenges I see in the church, and you might see a different church, and you might see a different church, and you might see a different >> by the way, >> by the way, >> by the way, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> that might call the question. >> that might call the question. >> that might call the question. >> What? >> What? >> What? >> When that 45year-old or 50 year old >> When that 45year-old or 50 year old >> When that 45year-old or 50 year old says, um, you know what? I feel like I'm says, um, you know what? I feel like I'm says, um, you know what? I feel like I'm ready. I'm ready to be a senior pastor ready. I'm ready to be a senior pastor ready. I'm ready to be a senior pastor and I want to lead something. And the and I want to lead something. And the and I want to lead something. And the guy goes, "Well, you know, I'm gonna guy goes, "Well, you know, I'm gonna guy goes, "Well, you know, I'm gonna hang around." Well, that's fine. You can hang around." Well, that's fine. You can hang around." Well, that's fine. You can do that, but I'm gonna go somewhere do that, but I'm gonna go somewhere do that, but I'm gonna go somewhere else. And then all of a sudden, else. And then all of a sudden, else. And then all of a sudden, hopefully the board is going to go, hopefully the board is going to go, hopefully the board is going to go, >> "Yeah." Goes, "Hey, >> "Yeah." Goes, "Hey, >> "Yeah." Goes, "Hey, >> wait, we just lost our guy." No, let you >> wait, we just lost our guy." No, let you >> wait, we just lost our guy." No, let you know know know >> a lot of times >> a lot of times >> a lot of times that's what consequences do. They call that's what consequences do. They call that's what consequences do. They call >> question. Yeah.

>> question. Yeah. >> question. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We're enabling this guy in some in some >> We're enabling this guy in some in some >> We're enabling this guy in some in some scenarios. scenarios. scenarios. >> Well, it's interesting. You know, I >> Well, it's interesting. You know, I >> Well, it's interesting. You know, I wanted wanted to ask you this question wanted wanted to ask you this question wanted wanted to ask you this question as well, Henry. When when I was 23, I as well, Henry. When when I was 23, I as well, Henry. When when I was 23, I was given a lot of ridiculous was given a lot of ridiculous was given a lot of ridiculous responsibility. responsibility. responsibility. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh I worked at a law firm. They threw me >> Uh I worked at a law firm. They threw me >> Uh I worked at a law firm. They threw me into court on a regular basis way like into court on a regular basis way like into court on a regular basis way like in the deep end. in the deep end. in the deep end. >> Good for them. >> Good for them. >> Good for them. >> I didn't know what I was doing, but you >> I didn't know what I was doing, but you >> I didn't know what I was doing, but you know what? You figure it out. You figure know what? You figure it out. You figure know what? You figure it out. You figure it out. And it out. And it out. And >> figure it out. when I graduated >> figure it out. when I graduated >> figure it out. when I graduated seminary, given three little churches, seminary, given three little churches, seminary, given three little churches, and I had a supervisor who was in his and I had a supervisor who was in his and I had a supervisor who was in his 70s, but he basically was there to 70s, but he basically was there to 70s, but he basically was there to encourage, cheer, enable, and I did some encourage, cheer, enable, and I did some encourage, cheer, enable, and I did some things right and some things wrong. But things right and some things wrong. But things right and some things wrong. But you know what? They let me lead when I you know what? They let me lead when I you know what? They let me lead when I was young. And one of the things I've was young. And one of the things I've was young. And one of the things I've noticed is noticed is noticed is >> um as we've all gotten older, certainly >> um as we've all gotten older, certainly >> um as we've all gotten older, certainly as I've gotten older, as I've gotten older, as I've gotten older, >> uh I wonder if a lot of leaders today >> uh I wonder if a lot of leaders today >> uh I wonder if a lot of leaders today are hesitant to really trust the next are hesitant to really trust the next are hesitant to really trust the next generation, throw them the keys and say, generation, throw them the keys and say, generation, throw them the keys and say, "You drive this thing." It's like, you "You drive this thing." It's like, you "You drive this thing." It's like, you know, and this isn't necessarily a know, and this isn't necessarily a know, and this isn't necessarily a continuation of what we were just continuation of what we were just continuation of what we were just talking about, but I talked to some talking about, but I talked to some talking about, but I talked to some guys, you know, they're saying, "Well, guys, you know, they're saying, "Well, guys, you know, they're saying, "Well, he's 42. He's a really young leader."

he's 42. He's a really young leader." he's 42. He's a really young leader." It's like, no, he's in the middle of It's like, no, he's in the middle of It's like, no, he's in the middle of life. like he's not a young leader life. like he's not a young leader life. like he's not a young leader anymore. Like this is not the youth anymore. Like this is not the youth anymore. Like this is not the youth group, guys. Like this is this is group, guys. Like this is this is group, guys. Like this is this is somebody in the prime of life, but somebody in the prime of life, but somebody in the prime of life, but you're still treating him like he was an you're still treating him like he was an you're still treating him like he was an 18-year-old, right? 18-year-old, right? 18-year-old, right? >> Do you see that? Like, do we infantilize >> Do you see that? Like, do we infantilize >> Do you see that? Like, do we infantilize nextgen leaders? And cuz you see a lot nextgen leaders? And cuz you see a lot nextgen leaders? And cuz you see a lot of them taking their stuff outside of of them taking their stuff outside of of them taking their stuff outside of the church now because I don't know that the church now because I don't know that the church now because I don't know that we're giving them the responsibility we're giving them the responsibility we're giving them the responsibility inside the church that perhaps we got inside the church that perhaps we got inside the church that perhaps we got when I was 25, 28, 30, 32. People gave when I was 25, 28, 30, 32. People gave when I was 25, 28, 30, 32. People gave me ridiculous responsibility. me ridiculous responsibility. me ridiculous responsibility. >> But you're only calling it ridiculous >> But you're only calling it ridiculous >> But you're only calling it ridiculous because now people don't. because now people don't. because now people don't. >> I know. I know. >> I know. I know. >> I know. I know. >> I mean, that's what that's the way it's >> I mean, that's what that's the way it's >> I mean, that's what that's the way it's supposed to be. supposed to be. supposed to be. >> That's how it's supposed to go. >> That's how it's supposed to go. >> That's how it's supposed to go. >> Supposed to be. I I look at the one of >> Supposed to be. I I look at the one of >> Supposed to be. I I look at the one of the things that disturbs me the most and the things that disturbs me the most and the things that disturbs me the most and we're talking about where the leaders we're talking about where the leaders we're talking about where the leaders come from is the parenting narratives come from is the parenting narratives come from is the parenting narratives that are out there today. We are that are out there today. We are that are out there today. We are delaying delaying delaying maturity maturity maturity at rampant scale. Kids are able to do at rampant scale. Kids are able to do at rampant scale. Kids are able to do stuff long before they're being seen as stuff long before they're being seen as stuff long before they're being seen as able.

able. able. >> Right. Right. now and and that whole >> Right. Right. now and and that whole >> Right. Right. now and and that whole mentality, you know, obviously you're mentality, you know, obviously you're mentality, you know, obviously you're you're picking it up in the in the you're picking it up in the in the you're picking it up in the in the church context, but they you got to give church context, but they you got to give church context, but they you got to give them look, you don't hand over them look, you don't hand over them look, you don't hand over [clears throat] the race when [clears throat] the race when [clears throat] the race when remember when your your oldest kid got remember when your your oldest kid got remember when your your oldest kid got their driver's permit. their driver's permit. their driver's permit. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And you got in the car for the first >> And you got in the car for the first >> And you got in the car for the first time, [clears throat] right? time, [clears throat] right? time, [clears throat] right? Sitting on the wrong seat. [laughter] Sitting on the wrong seat. [laughter] Sitting on the wrong seat. [laughter] Well, Well, Well, hopefully what happened was when they hopefully what happened was when they hopefully what happened was when they got that permit, you didn't say, "Okay, got that permit, you didn't say, "Okay, got that permit, you didn't say, "Okay, you know, take the car and drive to New you know, take the car and drive to New you know, take the car and drive to New York. York. York. >> Good luck. >> Good luck. >> Good luck. >> Have fun." >> Have fun." >> Have fun." >> They you you don't have to be afraid of >> They you you don't have to be afraid of >> They you you don't have to be afraid of doing because we know they're not ready doing because we know they're not ready doing because we know they're not ready to drive, but you're not giving them the to drive, but you're not giving them the to drive, but you're not giving them the opportunity to learn how to drive, opportunity to learn how to drive, opportunity to learn how to drive, right? So, this is why you go in a right? So, this is why you go in a right? So, this is why you go in a parking lot, you practice, and then you parking lot, you practice, and then you parking lot, you practice, and then you let them drive. I remember when I was a let them drive. I remember when I was a let them drive. I remember when I was a kid, my dad used to take me out on kid, my dad used to take me out on kid, my dad used to take me out on Sunday mornings. From the time I was 2 Sunday mornings. From the time I was 2 Sunday mornings. From the time I was 2 years old, this is a good practice, years old, this is a good practice, years old, this is a good practice, dads. From the time I was about 2 and a dads. From the time I was about 2 and a dads. From the time I was about 2 and a half, every Sunday morning, he get me half, every Sunday morning, he get me half, every Sunday morning, he get me out of bed at 6:00. We go to breakfast out of bed at 6:00. We go to breakfast out of bed at 6:00. We go to breakfast with his best friend, with his best friend, with his best friend, and we'd have breakfast, and then he and and we'd have breakfast, and then he and and we'd have breakfast, and then he and I would drive around town, look at his I would drive around town, look at his I would drive around town, look at his different projects. We'd there was a a different projects. We'd there was a a different projects. We'd there was a a lake nearby where we had a house and lake nearby where we had a house and lake nearby where we had a house and we'd go up there and or we'd go shoot we'd go up there and or we'd go shoot we'd go up there and or we'd go shoot guns or we'd go do something. But he guns or we'd go do something. But he guns or we'd go do something. But he always from time I was I don't know 6

always from time I was I don't know 6 always from time I was I don't know 6 years old Sunday morning there's nothing years old Sunday morning there's nothing years old Sunday morning there's nothing out there out in the country. He put me out there out in the country. He put me out there out in the country. He put me in his lap and say drive. in his lap and say drive. in his lap and say drive. And by the time I got my driver's And by the time I got my driver's And by the time I got my driver's license, he he didn't have any license, he he didn't have any license, he he didn't have any I was playing competitive golf. We got I was playing competitive golf. We got I was playing competitive golf. We got our driver's license at 15 back then. our driver's license at 15 back then. our driver's license at 15 back then. And uh when when I turned 15, it was a And uh when when I turned 15, it was a And uh when when I turned 15, it was a great day for my parents because they great day for my parents because they great day for my parents because they would would would send me 200 miles away and give me some send me 200 miles away and give me some send me 200 miles away and give me some money for a hotel so I can drive myself money for a hotel so I can drive myself money for a hotel so I can drive myself to my own golf tournaments now to my own golf tournaments now to my own golf tournaments now >> at 15. Kids can there you you're we're >> at 15. Kids can there you you're we're >> at 15. Kids can there you you're we're keeping them paralyzed and leaders do keeping them paralyzed and leaders do keeping them paralyzed and leaders do the same things. So but they didn't do the same things. So but they didn't do the same things. So but they didn't do that before. So here's the point that that before. So here's the point that that before. So here's the point that you're making. I think give them you're making. I think give them you're making. I think give them something to go lead that's small. Like something to go lead that's small. Like something to go lead that's small. Like Jim Collins says, don't fire Jim Collins says, don't fire Jim Collins says, don't fire cannonballs, fire bullets. Yeah. cannonballs, fire bullets. Yeah. cannonballs, fire bullets. Yeah. >> Give them something that's small and let >> Give them something that's small and let >> Give them something that's small and let them go. It's what every great them go. It's what every great them go. It's what every great corporation does. corporation does. corporation does. >> And also, I would, you know, make them >> And also, I would, you know, make them >> And also, I would, you know, make them work in different verticals.

work in different verticals. work in different verticals. >> So, you're leading this group, you're >> So, you're leading this group, you're >> So, you're leading this group, you're leading a team, you're leading a leading a team, you're leading a leading a team, you're leading a department, now you're leading a campus. department, now you're leading a campus. department, now you're leading a campus. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Now you're XP over the whole thing. And >> Now you're XP over the whole thing. And >> Now you're XP over the whole thing. And now you're ready. But that doesn't have now you're ready. But that doesn't have now you're ready. But that doesn't have to be a 30-year progression. Oh, to be a 30-year progression. Oh, to be a 30-year progression. Oh, >> that can be a fiveyear progression. You >> that can be a fiveyear progression. You >> that can be a fiveyear progression. You see that in organizations, right? see that in organizations, right? see that in organizations, right? >> Oh, yeah. It could be three. >> Oh, yeah. It could be three. >> Oh, yeah. It could be three. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It kind of depends on who we're talking >> It kind of depends on who we're talking >> It kind of depends on who we're talking about about about >> if if they have it. >> if if they have it. >> if if they have it. >> Some people come to the party and >> Some people come to the party and >> Some people come to the party and they've had different growing up years they've had different growing up years they've had different growing up years and different adult growing up years and different adult growing up years and different adult growing up years between 20 and 35 or whatever. And and between 20 and 35 or whatever. And and between 20 and 35 or whatever. And and they're they're ready to do things that they're they're ready to do things that they're they're ready to do things that you've never seen anybody that age ready you've never seen anybody that age ready you've never seen anybody that age ready to do. You know, we we see that, to do. You know, we we see that, to do. You know, we we see that, >> you know, quick quick driving story. My >> you know, quick quick driving story. My >> you know, quick quick driving story. My dad, we were talking about this with my dad, we were talking about this with my dad, we were talking about this with my dad uh a couple weeks ago, we were dad uh a couple weeks ago, we were dad uh a couple weeks ago, we were together with my siblings and for dinner together with my siblings and for dinner together with my siblings and for dinner and my parents were there and I was and my parents were there and I was and my parents were there and I was saying to my dad, you know, you gave us saying to my dad, you know, you gave us saying to my dad, you know, you gave us like ridiculous amounts of like ridiculous amounts of like ridiculous amounts of responsibility. On my 16th birthday, responsibility. On my 16th birthday, responsibility. On my 16th birthday, there was no graduated license there was no graduated license there was no graduated license licensing. So now where I'm from, you licensing. So now where I'm from, you licensing. So now where I'm from, you know, you get your G1, you have to have know, you get your G1, you have to have know, you get your G1, you have to have an adult in the car, then you get your an adult in the car, then you get your an adult in the car, then you get your G2 and you can finally drive on your G2 and you can finally drive on your G2 and you can finally drive on your own, but there's restrictions. Back then own, but there's restrictions. Back then own, but there's restrictions. Back then it was like all or nothing. You could it was like all or nothing. You could it was like all or nothing. You could either drive a car or you couldn't.

either drive a car or you couldn't. either drive a car or you couldn't. >> So my 16th birthday, my dad ran a >> So my 16th birthday, my dad ran a >> So my 16th birthday, my dad ran a country. country. country. >> When I grew up, you could drive a car >> When I grew up, you could drive a car >> When I grew up, you could drive a car and have an open container on the And and have an open container on the And and have an open container on the And when you went hunting a fish. [laughter] when you went hunting a fish. [laughter] when you went hunting a fish. [laughter] >> There you go. There you go. >> There you go. There you go. >> There you go. There you go. >> It's a little different now. >> It's a little different now. >> It's a little different now. >> A little bit different now. But he he >> A little bit different now. But he he >> A little bit different now. But he he just said, "All right, you get in the just said, "All right, you get in the just said, "All right, you get in the car. You're driving me to Toronto. He's car. You're driving me to Toronto. He's car. You're driving me to Toronto. He's going to go see a client." And we lived going to go see a client." And we lived going to go see a client." And we lived an hour and a half north of Toronto. So, an hour and a half north of Toronto. So, an hour and a half north of Toronto. So, you know, I'm driving on the roads and you know, I'm driving on the roads and you know, I'm driving on the roads and we hit the freeway. And I'm like, "Okay, we hit the freeway. And I'm like, "Okay, we hit the freeway. And I'm like, "Okay, Dad. I'm going to pull over. You drive Dad. I'm going to pull over. You drive Dad. I'm going to pull over. You drive on the highway." He's like, "No, no, no. on the highway." He's like, "No, no, no. on the highway." He's like, "No, no, no. You drive on the highway." I'm like, You drive on the highway." I'm like, You drive on the highway." I'm like, "Okay." Well, we're kind of like well "Okay." Well, we're kind of like well "Okay." Well, we're kind of like well north of Toronto, so I'll keep driving north of Toronto, so I'll keep driving north of Toronto, so I'll keep driving on the highway. Then we're getting close on the highway. Then we're getting close on the highway. Then we're getting close to the Toronto area. I'm like, "Okay, to the Toronto area. I'm like, "Okay, to the Toronto area. I'm like, "Okay, Dad, where do you want me to pull over?" Dad, where do you want me to pull over?" Dad, where do you want me to pull over?" He's like, "No, you keep going." He's like, "No, you keep going." He's like, "No, you keep going." >> I'm like, "Dad, now we're entering the >> I'm like, "Dad, now we're entering the >> I'm like, "Dad, now we're entering the city center." I mean, Toronto is a major city center." I mean, Toronto is a major city center." I mean, Toronto is a major city. You city. You city. You >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> I'm like, "Now we're entering the city >> I'm like, "Now we're entering the city >> I'm like, "Now we're entering the city center, Dad. Like, you you I got to pull center, Dad. Like, you you I got to pull center, Dad. Like, you you I got to pull over. You drive." He's like, "No, you over. You drive." He's like, "No, you over. You drive." He's like, "No, you take me right downtown." I drove right take me right downtown." I drove right take me right downtown." I drove right downtown Toronto, 16th birthday, and all downtown Toronto, 16th birthday, and all downtown Toronto, 16th birthday, and all the way back. And you know what? It just the way back. And you know what? It just the way back. And you know what? It just gave me confidence. Now, what gave you gave me confidence. Now, what gave you gave me confidence. Now, what gave you confidence? his confidence in me confidence? his confidence in me confidence? his confidence in me >> and >> and >> and >> and the experience the experience of I >> and the experience the experience of I >> and the experience the experience of I didn't ding anybody. There were no didn't ding anybody. There were no didn't ding anybody. There were no fender benders. I could do it and so I fender benders. I could do it and so I fender benders. I could do it and so I had the confidence and I just look at had the confidence and I just look at had the confidence and I just look at that and I gave my boys that same level.

that and I gave my boys that same level. that and I gave my boys that same level. I took them out before they were 16 and I took them out before they were 16 and I took them out before they were 16 and took them to parking lots and back roads took them to parking lots and back roads took them to parking lots and back roads and and and >> you know all of that so that when they >> you know all of that so that when they >> you know all of that so that when they were 16 on their birthday went got their were 16 on their birthday went got their were 16 on their birthday went got their license. And I want to do the same thing license. And I want to do the same thing license. And I want to do the same thing for leaders. It's like you should lead. for leaders. It's like you should lead. for leaders. It's like you should lead. hire them before they're ready and let hire them before they're ready and let hire them before they're ready and let them go them go them go >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> It's interesting how in today's world we >> It's interesting how in today's world we >> It's interesting how in today's world we just keep just keep just keep >> keep people down and don't let them >> keep people down and don't let them >> keep people down and don't let them develop agency and competence. develop agency and competence. develop agency and competence. >> You're not a kid at 50. [laughter] >> You're not a kid at 50. [laughter] >> You're not a kid at 50. [laughter] >> No, you're not. >> No, you're not. >> No, you're not. >> You're not. it, you know, in the Bible, >> You're not. it, you know, in the Bible, >> You're not. it, you know, in the Bible, it's you know, you hear this age of it's you know, you hear this age of it's you know, you hear this age of accountability, which you never see that accountability, which you never see that accountability, which you never see that phrase, phrase, phrase, >> but but really it's if you look at the >> but but really it's if you look at the >> but but really it's if you look at the scriptures, it it's it's right about 20 scriptures, it it's it's right about 20 scriptures, it it's it's right about 20 >> about 20 >> about 20 >> about 20 >> that that's when they became accountable >> that that's when they became accountable >> that that's when they became accountable for their decisions and got to go on the for their decisions and got to go on the for their decisions and got to go on the promised land or didn't or got to go promised land or didn't or got to go promised land or didn't or got to go fight the war and didn't and this that fight the war and didn't and this that fight the war and didn't and this that and the other and and we're just not a and the other and and we're just not a and the other and and we're just not a 20-year-old that shouldn't be his first 20-year-old that shouldn't be his first 20-year-old that shouldn't be his first rodeo, you know, when it it's it's weird rodeo, you know, when it it's it's weird rodeo, you know, when it it's it's weird >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> my dad um [clears throat] who really >> my dad um [clears throat] who really >> my dad um [clears throat] who really believed in this this principle.

believed in this this principle. believed in this this principle. >> Um he [laughter] this is kind of a funny >> Um he [laughter] this is kind of a funny >> Um he [laughter] this is kind of a funny story. story. story. >> I I'll make it short. When when I went >> I I'll make it short. When when I went >> I I'll make it short. When when I went to college, I I fell in love with this to college, I I fell in love with this to college, I I fell in love with this girl and she was she was great and we we girl and she was she was great and we we girl and she was she was great and we we dated through through freshman year, but dated through through freshman year, but dated through through freshman year, but nobody told me when we started dating. nobody told me when we started dating. nobody told me when we started dating. Her father was the governor of Texas. Her father was the governor of Texas. Her father was the governor of Texas. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> And in Texas, you I came from >> And in Texas, you I came from >> And in Texas, you I came from Mississippi. My cousin was the govern. Mississippi. My cousin was the govern. Mississippi. My cousin was the govern. It's no big deal in Texas. It's a big It's no big deal in Texas. It's a big It's no big deal in Texas. It's a big deal, right? deal, right? deal, right? >> Yeah, that's a big deal. And so they >> Yeah, that's a big deal. And so they >> Yeah, that's a big deal. And so they invite me to come down and visit them invite me to come down and visit them invite me to come down and visit them that that summer. And so I drive from that that summer. And so I drive from that that summer. And so I drive from Mississippi over to Texas and I go pick Mississippi over to Texas and I go pick Mississippi over to Texas and I go pick her up at the governor's mansion to her up at the governor's mansion to her up at the governor's mansion to drive to their their place, you know, in drive to their their place, you know, in drive to their their place, you know, in South Texas. South Texas. South Texas. Um, she wants to take her car cuz she Um, she wants to take her car cuz she Um, she wants to take her car cuz she had a bunch of stuff she wanted to take. had a bunch of stuff she wanted to take. had a bunch of stuff she wanted to take. So I'm driving. I pull out I and I do an So I'm driving. I pull out I and I do an So I'm driving. I pull out I and I do an in front of the governor's mansion. I do in front of the governor's mansion. I do in front of the governor's mansion. I do an illegal U-turn an illegal U-turn an illegal U-turn or I went the wrong way on wrongway or I went the wrong way on wrongway or I went the wrong way on wrongway street right in front of the governor's street right in front of the governor's street right in front of the governor's mansion and I get hit head on by a dump mansion and I get hit head on by a dump mansion and I get hit head on by a dump truck and the car goes up in flames and truck and the car goes up in flames and truck and the car goes up in flames and I total the car. We're okay. I total the car. We're okay. I total the car. We're okay. >> Her car or your car?

>> Her car or your car? >> Her car or your car? >> Her car. >> Her car. >> Her car. >> I'm going to meet the parents for the >> I'm going to meet the parents for the >> I'm going to meet the parents for the first time and I just total my first time and I just total my first time and I just total my >> total the car and it's on fire in your >> total the car and it's on fire in your >> total the car and it's on fire in your driveway. driveway. driveway. >> And this in the governor's van, you >> And this in the governor's van, you >> And this in the governor's van, you know, there's helicopters and news and know, there's helicopters and news and know, there's helicopters and news and all this kind of stuff. So I called my all this kind of stuff. So I called my all this kind of stuff. So I called my father and I said, "Daddy, what I I I father and I said, "Daddy, what I I I father and I said, "Daddy, what I I I just had a wreck." And he goes, "You're just had a wreck." And he goes, "You're just had a wreck." And he goes, "You're okay. Is she okay?" I said, "Yeah, we're okay. Is she okay?" I said, "Yeah, we're okay. Is she okay?" I said, "Yeah, we're okay." But I total the car. And he said, okay." But I total the car. And he said, okay." But I total the car. And he said, "You totaled your car." I said, "No, I "You totaled your car." I said, "No, I "You totaled your car." I said, "No, I totaled her car." [laughter] He goes, totaled her car." [laughter] He goes, totaled her car." [laughter] He goes, "You total cover." "You total cover." "You total cover." >> I said, "Who do I do? I call our >> I said, "Who do I do? I call our >> I said, "Who do I do? I call our insurance or his or is it their car?" insurance or his or is it their car?" insurance or his or is it their car?" But wait, he goes, "Son, calm down. But wait, he goes, "Son, calm down. But wait, he goes, "Son, calm down. Calm down. Let me get the facts Calm down. Let me get the facts Calm down. Let me get the facts straight. You're going to meet your straight. You're going to meet your straight. You're going to meet your girlfriend's father for the first time girlfriend's father for the first time girlfriend's father for the first time and he's the governor and you just total and he's the governor and you just total and he's the governor and you just total his car and you got to shake his hand his car and you got to shake his hand his car and you got to shake his hand and that's going to be the first time and that's going to be the first time and that's going to be the first time you ever met the man. Tell him you just you ever met the man. Tell him you just you ever met the man. Tell him you just to his car. I said, "Yeah, who do I to his car. I said, "Yeah, who do I to his car. I said, "Yeah, who do I call? What?" He says, "Son, if you are call? What?" He says, "Son, if you are call? What?" He says, "Son, if you are old enough to get yourself in a mess old enough to get yourself in a mess old enough to get yourself in a mess like this, you're old enough to get like this, you're old enough to get like this, you're old enough to get yourself out of it, call me and tell me yourself out of it, call me and tell me yourself out of it, call me and tell me how you did it." And he hung up the how you did it." And he hung up the how you did it." And he hung up the phone. [laughter] phone. [laughter] phone. [laughter] >> What a good dad.

>> What a good dad. >> What a good dad. >> What a good dad. >> What a good dad. >> What a good dad. >> What a good dad. >> What a good dad. >> What a good dad. >> I had to figure it out. >> I had to figure it out. >> I had to figure it out. >> Oh, man. So, what did you do? >> Oh, man. So, what did you do? >> Oh, man. So, what did you do? >> Uh, I called our insurance guy and he >> Uh, I called our insurance guy and he >> Uh, I called our insurance guy and he walked me through it and, you know, had walked me through it and, you know, had walked me through it and, you know, had to deal with the police and all that to deal with the police and all that to deal with the police and all that kind of stuff. And then we got in my car kind of stuff. And then we got in my car kind of stuff. And then we got in my car and when and her father was so gracious, and when and her father was so gracious, and when and her father was so gracious, >> was he? >> was he? >> was he? >> He was, >> He was, >> He was, >> "Mr. Governor, Mr. Governor, I don't >> "Mr. Governor, Mr. Governor, I don't >> "Mr. Governor, Mr. Governor, I don't know what to call you." know what to call you." know what to call you." >> Every night when we would go out, he >> Every night when we would go out, he >> Every night when we would go out, he goes, "Just make sure she drives." goes, "Just make sure she drives." goes, "Just make sure she drives." [laughter] >> But leaders, give your people >> But leaders, give your people experience. And here's the other experience. And here's the other experience. And here's the other important part of this um and this is a important part of this um and this is a important part of this um and this is a big problem. big problem. big problem. >> Um you see in leadership >> Um you see in leadership >> Um you see in leadership >> is we are designed the created order. >> is we are designed the created order. >> is we are designed the created order. You know the we're designing the image You know the we're designing the image You know the we're designing the image of God and there's three directions that of God and there's three directions that of God and there's three directions that we ought to be able to function well in. we ought to be able to function well in. we ought to be able to function well in. We ought God in the trinity. You see, We ought God in the trinity. You see, We ought God in the trinity. You see, you know, they function in different you know, they function in different you know, they function in different ways. And we ought to be able to take ways. And we ought to be able to take ways. And we ought to be able to take authority, authority, authority, right?

right? right? And lead others. And lead others. And lead others. We also ought to be able to be peers We also ought to be able to be peers We also ought to be able to be peers and be at equal authority with others. and be at equal authority with others. and be at equal authority with others. And we also be a have to be able to And we also be a have to be able to And we also be a have to be able to submit to authority above us. That's the submit to authority above us. That's the submit to authority above us. That's the created order. You see a lot of leaders, created order. You see a lot of leaders, created order. You see a lot of leaders, they're great leading up and they their they're great leading up and they their they're great leading up and they their bosses love them, their team can't stand bosses love them, their team can't stand bosses love them, their team can't stand them or the people that report to them them or the people that report to them them or the people that report to them can't stand them or they build little can't stand them or they build little can't stand them or they build little ffts where everybody who reports to them ffts where everybody who reports to them ffts where everybody who reports to them loves them, loves them, loves them, but they're driving their boss crazy but they're driving their boss crazy but they're driving their boss crazy because they got their own little and because they got their own little and because they got their own little and you know the team could be here. And so you know the team could be here. And so you know the team could be here. And so what I like to do in leadership what I like to do in leadership what I like to do in leadership development is make sure in this path development is make sure in this path development is make sure in this path you're talking about make sure that that you're talking about make sure that that you're talking about make sure that that leader has all has got to function leader has all has got to function leader has all has got to function keeping the people they report to happy, keeping the people they report to happy, keeping the people they report to happy, keeping their team happy and keeping the keeping their team happy and keeping the keeping their team happy and keeping the people that report to them happy. people that report to them happy. people that report to them happy. Because when they are going to be the Because when they are going to be the Because when they are going to be the senior, they better be able to submit to senior, they better be able to submit to senior, they better be able to submit to board, to the law, to regulators, to the board, to the law, to regulators, to the board, to the law, to regulators, to the city council or wherever you got to pay city council or wherever you got to pay city council or wherever you got to pay taxes. They got to be able to to taxes. They got to be able to to taxes. They got to be able to to function on a team of elders because function on a team of elders because function on a team of elders because they're probably going to be in that they're probably going to be in that they're probably going to be in that role. And they've got to be able to lead role. And they've got to be able to lead role. And they've got to be able to lead people or executive team. They got to be people or executive team. They got to be people or executive team. They got to be able to to to lead people without able to to to lead people without able to to to lead people without driving them crazy. And you see a lot of driving them crazy. And you see a lot of driving them crazy. And you see a lot of people who their character is not people who their character is not people who their character is not integrated into all three functions.

integrated into all three functions. integrated into all three functions. >> And that's a big problem in leadership. >> And that's a big problem in leadership. >> And that's a big problem in leadership. >> Henry, you made a big life change. you >> Henry, you made a big life change. you >> Henry, you made a big life change. you and your wife a couple years ago. You and your wife a couple years ago. You and your wife a couple years ago. You moved from LA where you'd lived pretty moved from LA where you'd lived pretty moved from LA where you'd lived pretty much your whole adult life. much your whole adult life. much your whole adult life. >> Yeah. Since college. >> Yeah. Since college. >> Yeah. Since college. >> Since college. So >> Since college. So >> Since college. So >> yeah, I went to LA for my training. >> yeah, I went to LA for my training. >> yeah, I went to LA for my training. >> So you're there [clears throat] for >> So you're there [clears throat] for >> So you're there [clears throat] for decades. decades. decades. >> Decades. I'm 400 years old now. >> Decades. I'm 400 years old now. >> Decades. I'm 400 years old now. >> 400 years [laughter] old. I'm 398. So >> 400 years [laughter] old. I'm 398. So >> 400 years [laughter] old. I'm 398. So right behind you. Um right behind you. Um right behind you. Um and you moved to Nashville. Yeah. and you moved to Nashville. Yeah. and you moved to Nashville. Yeah. >> That's really interesting. And here we >> That's really interesting. And here we >> That's really interesting. And here we are in Nashville filming this. are in Nashville filming this. are in Nashville filming this. What did you learn in the process of What did you learn in the process of What did you learn in the process of uprooting an entire adult life and uprooting an entire adult life and uprooting an entire adult life and moving to a new community? What did you moving to a new community? What did you moving to a new community? What did you learn about leaving? What did you learn learn about leaving? What did you learn learn about leaving? What did you learn about making new friends? About all of about making new friends? About all of about making new friends? About all of that? Because this is something that? Because this is something that? Because this is something sometimes leaders do. I lived in the sometimes leaders do. I lived in the sometimes leaders do. I lived in the same basic area my entire life. same basic area my entire life. same basic area my entire life. >> I'm just curious because that that >> I'm just curious because that that >> I'm just curious because that that thought is really daunting to me but thought is really daunting to me but thought is really daunting to me but also exciting to me. also exciting to me. also exciting to me. >> Oh gosh. I there are several things that >> Oh gosh. I there are several things that >> Oh gosh. I there are several things that I learned. Um I'll get to the part I learned. Um I'll get to the part I learned. Um I'll get to the part that's, you know, more personal, the that's, you know, more personal, the that's, you know, more personal, the things you ask about, but but in a big things you ask about, but but in a big things you ask about, but but in a big change like that, um I learned that um change like that, um I learned that um change like that, um I learned that um your number one responsibility is is as your number one responsibility is is as your number one responsibility is is as a husband.

a husband. a husband. It um It um It um was a lot easier for me in our was a lot easier for me in our was a lot easier for me in our circumstance than it was for Tori circumstance than it was for Tori circumstance than it was for Tori because she's she was leaving home. She because she's she was leaving home. She because she's she was leaving home. She grew up in Southern California, grew up in Southern California, grew up in Southern California, >> right? Deep family >> right? Deep family >> right? Deep family >> and she went to college in Southern >> and she went to college in Southern >> and she went to college in Southern California. California. California. >> So this is an entire life. >> So this is an entire life. >> So this is an entire life. >> So she's leaving her entire not only >> So she's leaving her entire not only >> So she's leaving her entire not only that she's leaving her passion. She that she's leaving her passion. She that she's leaving her passion. She loves the beach and she loves the loves the beach and she loves the loves the beach and she loves the outdoors and the weather that you know outdoors and the weather that you know outdoors and the weather that you know all of that. and she was leaving her all of that. and she was leaving her all of that. and she was leaving her community community community and it seemed like this is great. We're and it seemed like this is great. We're and it seemed like this is great. We're going on an adventure to me, right? But going on an adventure to me, right? But going on an adventure to me, right? But I had I had done things because of, you I had I had done things because of, you I had I had done things because of, you know, publishing and and business know, publishing and and business know, publishing and and business >> and obviously Christian networks that >> and obviously Christian networks that >> and obviously Christian networks that are here and all of that. are here and all of that. are here and all of that. >> I in fact I was I've been in a small >> I in fact I was I've been in a small >> I in fact I was I've been in a small group in Nashville for years that they group in Nashville for years that they group in Nashville for years that they let me come to when I'm in town and so I let me come to when I'm in town and so I let me come to when I'm in town and so I already had a lot already had a lot already had a lot >> you had roots here. you had and business >> you had roots here. you had and business >> you had roots here. you had and business and and and >> and it was a lot easier for me because >> and it was a lot easier for me because >> and it was a lot easier for me because 90% of my work is east of the Rockies 90% of my work is east of the Rockies 90% of my work is east of the Rockies and from Nashville you can get anywhere and from Nashville you can get anywhere and from Nashville you can get anywhere in an hour and a half and every trip I in an hour and a half and every trip I in an hour and a half and every trip I made from California was a nightmare and made from California was a nightmare and made from California was a nightmare and I don't know if you've googled this or I don't know if you've googled this or I don't know if you've googled this or not but um income taxes are a little not but um income taxes are a little not but um income taxes are a little different here.

different here. different here. >> So I've heard Yeah. [laughter] So I've >> So I've heard Yeah. [laughter] So I've >> So I've heard Yeah. [laughter] So I've heard heard heard >> in California I loved the you know idea >> in California I loved the you know idea >> in California I loved the you know idea of it but what I learned was my primary of it but what I learned was my primary of it but what I learned was my primary role um had to be role um had to be role um had to be uh making that helping make that path uh making that helping make that path uh making that helping make that path good for her. And fortunately, we had good for her. And fortunately, we had good for her. And fortunately, we had such good friends, you know, through our such good friends, you know, through our such good friends, you know, through our extended network and and I'd say this to extended network and and I'd say this to extended network and and I'd say this to anybody. If you got somebody new anybody. If you got somebody new anybody. If you got somebody new uh that are moving into town or do this uh that are moving into town or do this uh that are moving into town or do this for them. We had one family for them. We had one family for them. We had one family um who's well established here. Um um who's well established here. Um um who's well established here. Um one member of the family uh put together one member of the family uh put together one member of the family uh put together a lunchon for her. Come meet Tori a lunchon for her. Come meet Tori a lunchon for her. Come meet Tori >> with a small group. >> with a small group. >> with a small group. >> Not come meet Henry. Come meet No, it >> Not come meet Henry. Come meet No, it >> Not come meet Henry. Come meet No, it had nothing to do with me. With a small had nothing to do with me. With a small had nothing to do with me. With a small group of women on one side of town and group of women on one side of town and group of women on one side of town and another one on another side of town did another one on another side of town did another one on another side of town did the same thing. And she met some women the same thing. And she met some women the same thing. And she met some women and she has more community than now that and she has more community than now that and she has more community than now that which is her whole life. She's so which is her whole life. She's so which is her whole life. She's so >> so relational. I married a very >> so relational. I married a very >> so relational. I married a very relational woman.

relational woman. relational woman. >> Yeah. And and a lot of her work, you >> Yeah. And and a lot of her work, you >> Yeah. And and a lot of her work, you know, philanthropy and stuff we do is know, philanthropy and stuff we do is know, philanthropy and stuff we do is connected to a lot of relationships. And connected to a lot of relationships. And connected to a lot of relationships. And so I just had to um really really see so I just had to um really really see so I just had to um really really see that's number one. that's number one. that's number one. The other thing that I learned was The other thing that I learned was The other thing that I learned was so somebody it made me aware of this so somebody it made me aware of this so somebody it made me aware of this when somebody asked me um so what do you when somebody asked me um so what do you when somebody asked me um so what do you miss about LA? miss about LA? miss about LA? I say oh gosh I miss a group of friends. I say oh gosh I miss a group of friends. I say oh gosh I miss a group of friends. Um I miss my church. Um I miss my church. Um I miss my church. I miss the weather. I miss the weather. I miss the weather. I miss the food scene. LA is I miss the food scene. LA is I miss the food scene. LA is unbelievable. unbelievable. unbelievable. >> You can get anything. >> You can get anything. >> You can get anything. >> And I miss my golf club. >> And I miss my golf club. >> And I miss my golf club. I'm like, [laughter] I'm like, [laughter] I'm like, [laughter] >> seriously, >> seriously, >> seriously, >> golfer? Yeah. >> golfer? Yeah. >> golfer? Yeah. >> And they said, well, what do you like >> And they said, well, what do you like >> And they said, well, what do you like about Nashville? about Nashville? about Nashville? >> And I thought about it and said, well, I >> And I thought about it and said, well, I >> And I thought about it and said, well, I like my friends. I love my church.

like my friends. I love my church. like my friends. I love my church. I love the food scene here. It's great. I love the food scene here. It's great. I love the food scene here. It's great. I love the weather. See, I have seasons I love the weather. See, I have seasons I love the weather. See, I have seasons and all this. And I love my new golf and all this. And I love my new golf and all this. And I love my new golf club. club. club. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> And so I think, you know, wherever you >> And so I think, you know, wherever you >> And so I think, you know, wherever you go, there you are. [laughter] Yeah. go, there you are. [laughter] Yeah. go, there you are. [laughter] Yeah. >> So, I think I think part of what I >> So, I think I think part of what I >> So, I think I think part of what I learned was learned was learned was that if you're you know, you got in that if you're you know, you got in that if you're you know, you got in touch with get in touch with what touch with get in touch with what touch with get in touch with what makes your life work and and what makes your life work and and what makes your life work and and what matters to you. And and I don't know I matters to you. And and I don't know I matters to you. And and I don't know I don't know if we're really designed to don't know if we're really designed to don't know if we're really designed to sit in one spot for hundred years or sit in one spot for hundred years or sit in one spot for hundred years or not, but uh not, but uh not, but uh it's been an exciting move. And I miss it's been an exciting move. And I miss it's been an exciting move. And I miss LA. I I loved living in LA. Just loved LA. I I loved living in LA. Just loved LA. I I loved living in LA. Just loved it. So, you know, we go back um it. So, you know, we go back um it. So, you know, we go back um especially in the hot months to visit. especially in the hot months to visit. especially in the hot months to visit. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and so >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and so >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and so taxes, you know, obviously it is more taxes, you know, obviously it is more taxes, you know, obviously it is more advantageous. I've heard that from advantageous. I've heard that from advantageous. I've heard that from numerous people who've come in numerous people who've come in numerous people who've come in [laughter] from New York or LA.

[laughter] from New York or LA. [laughter] from New York or LA. >> Well, think about this. >> Well, think about this. >> Well, think about this. The highest income tax rate in The highest income tax rate in The highest income tax rate in California is 14%. California is 14%. California is 14%. Now, that's off the top line. Now, that's off the top line. Now, that's off the top line. you you take you take 14% of somebody's you you take you take 14% of somebody's you you take you take 14% of somebody's income or even you know if it's even income or even you know if it's even income or even you know if it's even down to 12 or 10 what if you took that down to 12 or 10 what if you took that down to 12 or 10 what if you took that that's cash every year which means you that's cash every year which means you that's cash every year which means you have to make way more than that to have have to make way more than that to have have to make way more than that to have that after tax rate that's cash every that after tax rate that's cash every that after tax rate that's cash every year or and you start to compound year or and you start to compound year or and you start to compound [clears throat] that [clears throat] that [clears throat] that in investing or you know for retirement in investing or you know for retirement in investing or you know for retirement >> where you lose 10% off of and >> where you lose 10% off of and >> where you lose 10% off of and giving. I mean, that's just and I mean, giving. I mean, that's just and I mean, giving. I mean, that's just and I mean, I just don't know where uh I just I just don't know where uh I just I just don't know where uh I just sometimes I don't know what they're sometimes I don't know what they're sometimes I don't know what they're thinking. thinking. thinking. >> Loneliness is is a big problem for >> Loneliness is is a big problem for >> Loneliness is is a big problem for leadership and a lot of leaders have it leadership and a lot of leaders have it leadership and a lot of leaders have it should not be should not be should not be >> okay talk.

>> okay talk. >> okay talk. >> It should not one of my most hated >> It should not one of my most hated >> It should not one of my most hated phrases. It's lonely at the top. phrases. It's lonely at the top. phrases. It's lonely at the top. If it's lonely at the top, you got a If it's lonely at the top, you got a If it's lonely at the top, you got a problem. God is not lonely. Think about that. He is not lonely at Think about that. He is not lonely at the top. And if you are lonely at the the top. And if you are lonely at the the top. And if you are lonely at the top, well, first of all, top, well, first of all, top, well, first of all, where is your elder board? where is your elder board? where is your elder board? Where where are your advisors? Where are Where where are your advisors? Where are Where where are your advisors? Where are you where's your community? Now there is you where's your community? Now there is you where's your community? Now there is some heat that you will feel in having some heat that you will feel in having some heat that you will feel in having to make certain calls from the chair to make certain calls from the chair to make certain calls from the chair that you sit in. But as the seals say, that you sit in. But as the seals say, that you sit in. But as the seals say, nobody rises to a challenge. You fall to nobody rises to a challenge. You fall to nobody rises to a challenge. You fall to your level of training. So are you and your level of training. So are you and your level of training. So are you and have you been equipping yourself to be have you been equipping yourself to be have you been equipping yourself to be able to make those calls, but bear one able to make those calls, but bear one able to make those calls, but bear one another's burdens. Those calls should another's burdens. Those calls should another's burdens. Those calls should not be made in a vacuum. You're doing not be made in a vacuum. You're doing not be made in a vacuum. You're doing that. No, no president goes to war that. No, no president goes to war that. No, no president goes to war without the joint chiefs. They're not without the joint chiefs. They're not without the joint chiefs. They're not lonely in that decision. There's a lonely in that decision. There's a lonely in that decision. There's a moment of solitude where the decision moment of solitude where the decision moment of solitude where the decision rests on you. But loneliness, get out of rests on you. But loneliness, get out of rests on you. But loneliness, get out of town. If you are lonely, you better do town. If you are lonely, you better do town. If you are lonely, you better do something about that.

something about that. something about that. >> How have you made friends? >> How have you made friends? >> How have you made friends? >> Is wrong. Your go ahead. >> Is wrong. Your go ahead. >> Is wrong. Your go ahead. >> No, keep going. Go through the list and >> No, keep going. Go through the list and >> No, keep going. Go through the list and tell me how you made tell me how you made tell me how you made >> your your brain's not going to function. >> your your brain's not going to function. >> your your brain's not going to function. Your fears [clears throat] are going to Your fears [clears throat] are going to Your fears [clears throat] are going to take over. Your grandiosity is going to take over. Your grandiosity is going to take over. Your grandiosity is going to take over. your denial systems, your take over. your denial systems, your take over. your denial systems, your biases, your cognitive biases, your biases, your cognitive biases, your biases, your cognitive biases, your history. If you are leading in a vacuum history. If you are leading in a vacuum history. If you are leading in a vacuum or worse, what a lot of these people do or worse, what a lot of these people do or worse, what a lot of these people do is they have just their spouse that's is they have just their spouse that's is they have just their spouse that's that's their confidant. that's their confidant. that's their confidant. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And that can be a closed psychotic >> And that can be a closed psychotic >> And that can be a closed psychotic system that nobody can penetrate or system that nobody can penetrate or system that nobody can penetrate or speak into it. That's just a big big speak into it. That's just a big big speak into it. That's just a big big problem. We are designed problem. We are designed problem. We are designed as your brain does not make decisions as your brain does not make decisions as your brain does not make decisions amputated on a shelf apart from your amputated on a shelf apart from your amputated on a shelf apart from your body. It needs oxygen. It needs cellular body. It needs oxygen. It needs cellular body. It needs oxygen. It needs cellular development and reconstruction all the development and reconstruction all the development and reconstruction all the time. It needs movement. Do not be time. It needs movement. Do not be time. It needs movement. Do not be lonely as a leader. Dad gum it. You are lonely as a leader. Dad gum it. You are lonely as a leader. Dad gum it. You are in trouble if you are. in trouble if you are. in trouble if you are. >> How have you made buy it? Buy it.

>> How have you made buy it? Buy it. >> How have you made buy it? Buy it. >> What do you mean by that? >> What do you mean by that? >> What do you mean by that? >> Well, I think I give you a great >> Well, I think I give you a great >> Well, I think I give you a great example. Um I won't name Well, I don't example. Um I won't name Well, I don't example. Um I won't name Well, I don't think they but um think they but um think they but um >> we can cut it out. >> we can cut it out. >> we can cut it out. >> Mariners Church is a great example. >> Mariners Church is a great example. >> Mariners Church is a great example. >> Yeah. Yeah. Eric long before Eric. >> Yeah. Yeah. Eric long before Eric. >> Yeah. Yeah. Eric long before Eric. Eric's leading something now that he Eric's leading something now that he Eric's leading something now that he didn't start right. didn't start right. didn't start right. >> No, it was before that. Okay. But here's >> No, it was before that. Okay. But here's >> No, it was before that. Okay. But here's what they did. Here's what they did with what they did. Here's what they did with what they did. Here's what they did with Ken. The elders The elders had a committee. They reported to the had a committee. They reported to the had a committee. They reported to the board of elders board of elders board of elders whose mission of this committee was the whose mission of this committee was the whose mission of this committee was the care and well-being and development of care and well-being and development of care and well-being and development of the senior pastor. They had a a psychologist, a former CEO, They had a a psychologist, a former CEO, a former head of HR from a big company, a former head of HR from a big company, a former head of HR from a big company, a senior pastor. I think, you know, in a senior pastor. I think, you know, in a senior pastor. I think, you know, in other words, it was people that really other words, it was people that really other words, it was people that really knew what they were doing and they knew what they were doing and they knew what they were doing and they stewarded the development of the senior stewarded the development of the senior stewarded the development of the senior pastor. That was his 30 plus year run pastor. That was his 30 plus year run pastor. That was his 30 plus year run because the body was doing its work. And because the body was doing its work. And because the body was doing its work. And that's a bud that costs money. Okay.

that's a bud that costs money. Okay. that's a bud that costs money. Okay. I've got one client company that spends I've got one client company that spends I've got one client company that spends a hundred million a year on individual a hundred million a year on individual a hundred million a year on individual coaching just for their senior their coaching just for their senior their coaching just for their senior their leadership. leadership. leadership. Okay. Okay. Okay. Every company in the world does this Every company in the world does this Every company in the world does this except the church. except the church. except the church. So why don't we have why is it in the So why don't we have why is it in the So why don't we have why is it in the church budget for a coach, a a mentor, a church budget for a coach, a a mentor, a church budget for a coach, a a mentor, a shrink if they need, whatever it is, shrink if they need, whatever it is, shrink if they need, whatever it is, sending them to, you know, summit or sending them to, you know, summit or sending them to, you know, summit or other great leadership forums or other great leadership forums or other great leadership forums or networks or whatever. It's so important networks or whatever. It's so important networks or whatever. It's so important when I say you might have to pay for it. when I say you might have to pay for it. when I say you might have to pay for it. The scripture says that sell all you The scripture says that sell all you The scripture says that sell all you have to buy wisdom. have to buy wisdom. have to buy wisdom. It's right there in the Bible. So why It's right there in the Bible. So why It's right there in the Bible. So why that should be part of the and sometime that should be part of the and sometime that should be part of the and sometime hopefully you don't have to pay for it hopefully you don't have to pay for it hopefully you don't have to pay for it because there's somebody in the network. because there's somebody in the network. because there's somebody in the network. There's there's business people. There's There's there's business people. There's There's there's business people. There's other pastors. But here's the other other pastors. But here's the other other pastors. But here's the other thing. Get out of the system thing. Get out of the system thing. Get out of the system only. In other words, your community only. In other words, your community only. In other words, your community cannot be your stakeholders because the cannot be your stakeholders because the cannot be your stakeholders because the advice they're giving you, they've got a advice they're giving you, they've got a advice they're giving you, they've got a conflict of interest. Certainly, you conflict of interest. Certainly, you conflict of interest. Certainly, you have community. Some of your best have community. Some of your best have community. Some of your best friends may be in your church, but if friends may be in your church, but if friends may be in your church, but if you don't have really good community in you don't have really good community in you don't have really good community in other networks that aren't your other networks that aren't your other networks that aren't your competitors down the street or whatever, competitors down the street or whatever, competitors down the street or whatever, and and they can tell you the truth, and and they can tell you the truth, and and they can tell you the truth, it's not going to affect their life. If it's not going to affect their life. If it's not going to affect their life. If you open up a second campus, they don't you open up a second campus, they don't you open up a second campus, they don't care. They care about you and your care. They care about you and your care. They care about you and your development. A closed system entropy

development. A closed system entropy development. A closed system entropy increases over time. And to to turn increases over time. And to to turn increases over time. And to to turn around the law of entropy, you got to around the law of entropy, you got to around the law of entropy, you got to inject new energy from the outside and inject new energy from the outside and inject new energy from the outside and intelligence. It's got to organize the intelligence. It's got to organize the intelligence. It's got to organize the energy. So that means you've got to get energy. So that means you've got to get energy. So that means you've got to get people outside of your system also people outside of your system also people outside of your system also helping to develop you. Very important. helping to develop you. Very important. helping to develop you. Very important. How have you gone about making new How have you gone about making new How have you gone about making new friends in a brand new community? You friends in a brand new community? You friends in a brand new community? You had some friends when you were here, so had some friends when you were here, so had some friends when you were here, so that helps. That's a nice starting that helps. That's a nice starting that helps. That's a nice starting point, but what are what are some things point, but what are what are some things point, but what are what are some things that you've done to expand your that you've done to expand your that you've done to expand your relational base since you moved? relational base since you moved? relational base since you moved? >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, and this is probably pretty common path and this is probably pretty common path and this is probably pretty common path that everybody could do. Mine mine have that everybody could do. Mine mine have that everybody could do. Mine mine have mostly come from my activities. You mostly come from my activities. You mostly come from my activities. You know, I play golf and so I've got a know, I play golf and so I've got a know, I play golf and so I've got a whole whole new, you know, network of whole whole new, you know, network of whole whole new, you know, network of golfing buddies that just show up and golfing buddies that just show up and golfing buddies that just show up and look for a game, right? Um look for a game, right? Um look for a game, right? Um a lot of it has come from you know you a lot of it has come from you know you a lot of it has come from you know you know a few people and they bring you in know a few people and they bring you in know a few people and they bring you in um to their circle um and you um to their circle um and you um to their circle um and you [clears throat] meet them and that you [clears throat] meet them and that you [clears throat] meet them and that you know that that multiplies.

know that that multiplies. know that that multiplies. Um one of them has been uh from people Um one of them has been uh from people Um one of them has been uh from people outside of Nashville that connect outside of Nashville that connect outside of Nashville that connect friends you have in other places that friends you have in other places that friends you have in other places that have friends here that that have friends here that that have friends here that that >> Oh >> Oh >> Oh that's a big deal. Hey, you know, so and that's a big deal. Hey, you know, so and that's a big deal. Hey, you know, so and so's moving national. You ought to know so's moving national. You ought to know so's moving national. You ought to know so and so. I'm going to connect you guys so and so. I'm going to connect you guys so and so. I'm going to connect you guys and y'all go have lunch. You do that. and y'all go have lunch. You do that. and y'all go have lunch. You do that. Um, our church is great. Um, it it Um, our church is great. Um, it it Um, our church is great. Um, it it mainly it's kind of a get active in the mainly it's kind of a get active in the mainly it's kind of a get active in the things you love and you'll find people things you love and you'll find people things you love and you'll find people you love that love what you love. you love that love what you love. you love that love what you love. And And And I guess it's I guess it's I guess it's >> it sounds so basic and yet it's so rare, >> it sounds so basic and yet it's so rare, >> it sounds so basic and yet it's so rare, right? like when you look at the right? like when you look at the right? like when you look at the loneliness stats and when you look at loneliness stats and when you look at loneliness stats and when you look at the people who don't have actual friends the people who don't have actual friends the people who don't have actual friends and you look at the state of and you look at the state of and you look at the state of relationships in ministry but this is relationships in ministry but this is relationships in ministry but this is this is really good advice but what it this is really good advice but what it this is really good advice but what it means is you have a life anything else means is you have a life anything else means is you have a life anything else about loneliness Henry about loneliness Henry about loneliness Henry >> well you know it's interesting there was >> well you know it's interesting there was >> well you know it's interesting there was a leadership event that I did for a a leadership event that I did for a a leadership event that I did for a number of years with a small group of of number of years with a small group of of number of years with a small group of of pastors um we did this we bring in about pastors um we did this we bring in about pastors um we did this we bring in about 25 of them um and we did this for a 25 of them um and we did this for a 25 of them um and we did this for a number of years and there were enough number of years and there were enough number of years and there were enough groups where I could keep some data.

groups where I could keep some data. groups where I could keep some data. [clears throat] You know, I love [clears throat] You know, I love [clears throat] You know, I love research and I would always ask them research and I would always ask them research and I would always ask them three or a list of questions, but a few three or a list of questions, but a few three or a list of questions, but a few of the questions, three questions were, of the questions, three questions were, of the questions, three questions were, where do you have where you can be 100% where do you have where you can be 100% where do you have where you can be 100% transparent, it's confidential with transparent, it's confidential with transparent, it's confidential with somebody that's not a stakeholder in somebody that's not a stakeholder in somebody that's not a stakeholder in what you do? what you do? what you do? 80% of them over time said, I don't have 80% of them over time said, I don't have 80% of them over time said, I don't have anywhere like that. anywhere like that. anywhere like that. senior pastor. senior pastor. senior pastor. Second question, Second question, Second question, have you experienced anything in the have you experienced anything in the have you experienced anything in the last 12 months that you would deem has last 12 months that you would deem has last 12 months that you would deem has gotten to clinical proportions like gotten to clinical proportions like gotten to clinical proportions like depression or loneliness or anxiety or depression or loneliness or anxiety or depression or loneliness or anxiety or addiction or whatever? About 80% of them addiction or whatever? About 80% of them addiction or whatever? About 80% of them said yes. said yes. said yes. Third question, where do you go? What person or persons where do you go? What person or persons in your life do you have that the entire in your life do you have that the entire in your life do you have that the entire relationship it's not mutual the entire relationship it's not mutual the entire relationship it's not mutual the entire relationship is dedicated to your growth relationship is dedicated to your growth relationship is dedicated to your growth and development as a leader and development as a leader and development as a leader but 80% of them said nowhere but 80% of them said nowhere but 80% of them said nowhere I don't I I just couldn't believe it I don't I I just couldn't believe it I don't I I just couldn't believe it these are senior pastors these are senior pastors these are senior pastors >> senior pastors >> senior pastors >> senior pastors where where where are the elders and aren't entering into that and and aren't entering into that and requiring it.

>> That's come up a lot. The elders, the >> That's come up a lot. The elders, the role of the board, the role of the board role of the board, the role of the board role of the board, the role of the board in this conversation. We do have a lot in this conversation. We do have a lot in this conversation. We do have a lot of elders and board members listening. of elders and board members listening. of elders and board members listening. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> To this show. So, if you're a board >> To this show. So, if you're a board >> To this show. So, if you're a board member, member, member, >> what do you do? >> what do you do? >> what do you do? >> You are an overseer. >> You are an overseer. >> You are an overseer. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> Henry, we covered a lot. You have a new >> Henry, we covered a lot. You have a new book coming out. book coming out. book coming out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Best book you've ever written. >> Best book you've ever written. >> Best book you've ever written. >> I >> I >> I there's there's a way in which I feel there's there's a way in which I feel there's there's a way in which I feel that actually. that actually. that actually. >> I love this one. It's um it's called >> I love this one. It's um it's called >> I love this one. It's um it's called your desired future. your desired future. your desired future. And we talk about you know leadership And we talk about you know leadership And we talk about you know leadership and life being moving things from here and life being moving things from here and life being moving things from here to there. Well, how does that actually to there. Well, how does that actually to there. Well, how does that actually happen? And years ago, um, you know, happen? And years ago, um, you know, happen? And years ago, um, you know, there's so much great leadership stuff there's so much great leadership stuff there's so much great leadership stuff out there where you can kind of get lost out there where you can kind of get lost out there where you can kind of get lost in the, well, what are the food groups, in the, well, what are the food groups, in the, well, what are the food groups, you know, supposed to be? It's like I you know, supposed to be? It's like I you know, supposed to be? It's like I need calcium and I need this and and need calcium and I need this and and need calcium and I need this and and it's it's really overwhelming. But but it's it's really overwhelming. But but it's it's really overwhelming. But but what I did was I did a factor analysis what I did was I did a factor analysis what I did was I did a factor analysis of all that all of that stuff and and of all that all of that stuff and and of all that all of that stuff and and really it comes down to there's there's really it comes down to there's there's really it comes down to there's there's basically five things that if one of basically five things that if one of basically five things that if one of them or two of them is missing then it's them or two of them is missing then it's them or two of them is missing then it's not going to work.

not going to work. not going to work. >> And the problem is that each none of us >> And the problem is that each none of us >> And the problem is that each none of us has all five of those strengths and we has all five of those strengths and we has all five of those strengths and we build things in our own image. build things in our own image. build things in our own image. So if somebody's a great visionary, a So if somebody's a great visionary, a So if somebody's a great visionary, a lot of times they'll, you know, they're lot of times they'll, you know, they're lot of times they'll, you know, they're they're thinking that way and that they're thinking that way and that they're thinking that way and that they're moving. It's they're moving. It's they're moving. It's >> all vision >> all vision >> all vision >> and engaging the talent and all of that. >> and engaging the talent and all of that. >> and engaging the talent and all of that. But measurement and accountability, for But measurement and accountability, for But measurement and accountability, for example, is a basic example, is a basic example, is a basic body function to walk across the room if body function to walk across the room if body function to walk across the room if if God has built into the brain the if God has built into the brain the if God has built into the brain the ability to am I on track? Am I getting ability to am I on track? Am I getting ability to am I on track? Am I getting there? Am I at the right speed? Am I there? Am I at the right speed? Am I there? Am I at the right speed? Am I doing the right things to get there? and doing the right things to get there? and doing the right things to get there? and and somebody may not be wired that way. and somebody may not be wired that way. and somebody may not be wired that way. Just because you're not wired that way, Just because you're not wired that way, Just because you're not wired that way, you're the you're the leader and you got you're the you're the leader and you got you're the you're the leader and you got to make sure that's happening somewhere to make sure that's happening somewhere to make sure that's happening somewhere or that somebody's got the gifts to do or that somebody's got the gifts to do or that somebody's got the gifts to do it. Or what if, for example, you know, it. Or what if, for example, you know, it. Or what if, for example, you know, you talk about accountability, you talk about accountability, you talk about accountability, what if you're conflict avoidant what if you're conflict avoidant what if you're conflict avoidant >> and your your ministry is going to >> and your your ministry is going to >> and your your ministry is going to suffer. One of the big things I find suffer. One of the big things I find suffer. One of the big things I find myself talking to churches a lot about myself talking to churches a lot about myself talking to churches a lot about now, Carrie, is now, Carrie, is now, Carrie, is there is there's no such thing. You you there is there's no such thing. You you there is there's no such thing. You you go into church and you start talking go into church and you start talking go into church and you start talking about having some some accountability about having some some accountability about having some some accountability and measuring some things and this that and measuring some things and this that and measuring some things and this that and the other, which a basic New and the other, which a basic New and the other, which a basic New Testament tenant, Testament tenant, Testament tenant, and somebody's going to stand up, and and somebody's going to stand up, and and somebody's going to stand up, and I've never not seen this happen. But I've never not seen this happen. But I've never not seen this happen. But wait a minute, you're trying to you're wait a minute, you're trying to you're wait a minute, you're trying to you're trying to run this thing like a trying to run this thing like a trying to run this thing like a business. This is a ministry.

business. This is a ministry. business. This is a ministry. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Nobody's accountable for anything cuz Nobody's accountable for anything cuz Nobody's accountable for anything cuz it's a ministry. it's a ministry. it's a ministry. >> It's a ministry. And I always say, "So, >> It's a ministry. And I always say, "So, >> It's a ministry. And I always say, "So, is God's business the only one that's is God's business the only one that's is God's business the only one that's allowed to suck?" allowed to suck?" allowed to suck?" [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> No, seriously. I mean, we're And it's >> No, seriously. I mean, we're And it's >> No, seriously. I mean, we're And it's great. And there's no such thing in the great. And there's no such thing in the great. And there's no such thing in the New Testament as a nonperformance-based New Testament as a nonperformance-based New Testament as a nonperformance-based culture. culture. culture. >> You just don't see it. >> You just don't see it. >> You just don't see it. >> No such thing in the New Testament as a >> No such thing in the New Testament as a >> No such thing in the New Testament as a non-performance-based culture. non-performance-based culture. non-performance-based culture. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Everything's performance-based in the >> Everything's performance-based in the >> Everything's performance-based in the New Testament. New Testament. New Testament. >> You tell me. >> You tell me. >> You tell me. Now it's undergarded by grace, but we we Now it's undergarded by grace, but we we Now it's undergarded by grace, but we we mistake grace as license. Grace is God's mistake grace as license. Grace is God's mistake grace as license. Grace is God's favor. It it the fact God loves me favor. It it the fact God loves me favor. It it the fact God loves me unconditionally. That's an aspect of unconditionally. That's an aspect of unconditionally. That's an aspect of grace, but it's not the totality of grace, but it's not the totality of grace, but it's not the totality of grace. Grace is what comes underneath to grace. Grace is what comes underneath to grace. Grace is what comes underneath to empower us to reach a never moving empower us to reach a never moving empower us to reach a never moving standard. And what we've done in the standard. And what we've done in the standard. And what we've done in the name of grace, we've gotten rid of name of grace, we've gotten rid of name of grace, we've gotten rid of standards. standards. standards. But you look at the New Testament. Now But you look at the New Testament. Now But you look at the New Testament. Now think about this. You got three think about this. You got three think about this. You got three positions in your church. One of them positions in your church. One of them positions in your church. One of them you give couple of resources to and they you give couple of resources to and they you give couple of resources to and they double that. You give them more parable double that. You give them more parable double that. You give them more parable of talents. Another one you give some of talents. Another one you give some of talents. Another one you give some resources to. They double that. You resources to. They double that. You resources to. They double that. You promote them. Another one you gave them promote them. Another one you gave them promote them. Another one you gave them a position and they're not producing any a position and they're not producing any a position and they're not producing any fruit. You take that chair away from fruit. You take that chair away from fruit. You take that chair away from that person and give it to somebody that person and give it to somebody that person and give it to somebody who's going to produce who's going to produce who's going to produce >> ideally. Yes.

>> ideally. Yes. >> ideally. Yes. >> That's performance. On the negative >> That's performance. On the negative >> That's performance. On the negative side, side, side, reject a divisive person after a second reject a divisive person after a second reject a divisive person after a second warning. warning. warning. Paul says, you know, Paul says, you know, Paul says, you know, >> pretty clear. >> pretty clear. >> pretty clear. >> It's very clear throughout his letters. >> It's very clear throughout his letters. >> It's very clear throughout his letters. Don't associate with these people. Don't associate with these people. Don't associate with these people. They're spreading this and this that and They're spreading this and this that and They're spreading this and this that and the other. And it what about John 15? the other. And it what about John 15? the other. And it what about John 15? Pruning. Pruning. Pruning. You're pruning them so you get more You're pruning them so you get more You're pruning them so you get more fruit. fruit. fruit. >> So, >> So, >> So, you know, non-per performance-based you know, non-per performance-based you know, non-per performance-based culture. It's interesting. There's a culture. It's interesting. There's a culture. It's interesting. There's a mutual friend of ours who I don't want mutual friend of ours who I don't want mutual friend of ours who I don't want to name because I don't want to give him to name because I don't want to give him to name because I don't want to give him responsibility for this in case it was a responsibility for this in case it was a responsibility for this in case it was a private comment, but his theory on uh private comment, but his theory on uh private comment, but his theory on uh you know Paul versus Peter was that and you know Paul versus Peter was that and you know Paul versus Peter was that and this is all speculation that Jesus kind this is all speculation that Jesus kind this is all speculation that Jesus kind of looked at Peter but Peter got trapped of looked at Peter but Peter got trapped of looked at Peter but Peter got trapped with like Gentiles really really and it with like Gentiles really really and it with like Gentiles really really and it wasn't going particularly well. It's wasn't going particularly well. It's wasn't going particularly well. It's like all right I better knock Paul off like all right I better knock Paul off like all right I better knock Paul off his horse and we'll get this thing out his horse and we'll get this thing out his horse and we'll get this thing out to the world. [laughter] to the world. [laughter] to the world. [laughter] That's not a bad theory actually. you That's not a bad theory actually. you That's not a bad theory actually. you know, Peter was still helpful, but know, Peter was still helpful, but know, Peter was still helpful, but Paul's the one who really was Paul's the one who really was Paul's the one who really was responsible for spreading Christianity responsible for spreading Christianity responsible for spreading Christianity throughout the Roman Empire.

throughout the Roman Empire. throughout the Roman Empire. >> But think about this, too. If um if uh >> But think about this, too. If um if uh >> But think about this, too. If um if uh Paul had gone to the Jews, you might Paul had gone to the Jews, you might Paul had gone to the Jews, you might have a little overconfidence working and have a little overconfidence working and have a little overconfidence working and then you can't say you got to depend on then you can't say you got to depend on then you can't say you got to depend on the power of God. the power of God. the power of God. But this this whole thing about um you But this this whole thing about um you But this this whole thing about um you know, it it's so interesting. The basic know, it it's so interesting. The basic know, it it's so interesting. The basic problem in the universe was when grace problem in the universe was when grace problem in the universe was when grace and truth were split. You know, we had and truth were split. You know, we had and truth were split. You know, we had all of that in the beginning and then we all of that in the beginning and then we all of that in the beginning and then we disconnected from the relationship and disconnected from the relationship and disconnected from the relationship and God gave us the law in place of it. And God gave us the law in place of it. And God gave us the law in place of it. And then he comes back. The law was given then he comes back. The law was given then he comes back. The law was given through Moses, but grace and truth were through Moses, but grace and truth were through Moses, but grace and truth were realized through Jesus. In the Psalms, realized through Jesus. In the Psalms, realized through Jesus. In the Psalms, it says that righteousness and mercy it says that righteousness and mercy it says that righteousness and mercy have indeed met in God. They've kissed. have indeed met in God. They've kissed. have indeed met in God. They've kissed. And and you never you always have And and you never you always have And and you never you always have problems in families if somebody's problems in families if somebody's problems in families if somebody's loving without limits or if they have loving without limits or if they have loving without limits or if they have limits without love. And a ministry is limits without love. And a ministry is limits without love. And a ministry is the same thing. And you know the entire the same thing. And you know the entire the same thing. And you know the entire law is the structure of righteousness to law is the structure of righteousness to law is the structure of righteousness to make love work. And you have love make love work. And you have love make love work. And you have love without expectations. In that love it's without expectations. In that love it's without expectations. In that love it's going to go perverted. And so when you going to go perverted. And so when you going to go perverted. And so when you try to you try to build a ministry try to you try to build a ministry try to you try to build a ministry without without standards and without without standards and without without standards and consequences and performance and and consequences and performance and and consequences and performance and and rewarding giving little and they're rewarding giving little and they're rewarding giving little and they're faithful to that they get more and faithful to that they get more and faithful to that they get more and empowering them to get there.

empowering them to get there. empowering them to get there. >> This isn't a standard without without >> This isn't a standard without without >> This isn't a standard without without fertilizing and and the grace and fertilizing and and the grace and fertilizing and and the grace and building. And you know, you you don't building. And you know, you you don't building. And you know, you you don't require a football team to win the Super require a football team to win the Super require a football team to win the Super Bowl without months of building their Bowl without months of building their Bowl without months of building their skills. skills. skills. >> So, it's a big deal and people don't >> So, it's a big deal and people don't >> So, it's a big deal and people don't like it, especially if if it's ever I I like it, especially if if it's ever I I like it, especially if if it's ever I I remember one group I went into the remember one group I went into the remember one group I went into the ministry. Let's look at this. It's just ministry. Let's look at this. It's just ministry. Let's look at this. It's just ridiculous. And I said, "What what do ridiculous. And I said, "What what do ridiculous. And I said, "What what do you have to do to get fired around here? you have to do to get fired around here? you have to do to get fired around here? There are people not doing anything. There are people not doing anything. There are people not doing anything. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> I bet the plus rolls that don't move the >> I bet the plus rolls that don't move the >> I bet the plus rolls that don't move the needle. That's another thing. needle. That's another thing. needle. That's another thing. >> And and they looked around the table. >> And and they looked around the table. >> And and they looked around the table. They said, "I don't know if we ever They said, "I don't know if we ever They said, "I don't know if we ever fired anybody." They literally said fired anybody." They literally said fired anybody." They literally said that. that. that. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And then one guy says, "No, no, no. I >> And then one guy says, "No, no, no. I >> And then one guy says, "No, no, no. I know. If you if you steal money or sleep know. If you if you steal money or sleep know. If you if you steal money or sleep with somebody, you can get fired." But with somebody, you can get fired." But with somebody, you can get fired." But that's about it. that's about it. that's about it. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. >> Onward Christian soldiers. >> Onward Christian soldiers. >> Onward Christian soldiers. We [laughter] We [laughter] We [laughter] got to get got to get got to get >> not going to win any battles.

>> not going to win any battles. >> not going to win any battles. >> Equipped for battles. not going to win >> Equipped for battles. not going to win >> Equipped for battles. not going to win any battles. Uh, so the new book is any battles. Uh, so the new book is any battles. Uh, so the new book is called again, it's called again, it's called again, it's >> called Your Desired Future. >> called Your Desired Future. >> called Your Desired Future. >> Your desired future. It's available for >> Your desired future. It's available for >> Your desired future. It's available for pre-order. Comes out in May. pre-order. Comes out in May. pre-order. Comes out in May. >> Yeah, it's probably um where as the old >> Yeah, it's probably um where as the old >> Yeah, it's probably um where as the old thing, wherever books are sold. thing, wherever books are sold. thing, wherever books are sold. >> Wherever books are sold. >> Wherever books are sold. >> Wherever books are sold. >> It's really it's an interesting concept >> It's really it's an interesting concept >> It's really it's an interesting concept though because it I asked the question, though because it I asked the question, though because it I asked the question, how does you know what's God's model of how does you know what's God's model of how does you know what's God's model of leadership and what's his company leadership and what's his company leadership and what's his company called? It's called the body. Well, how called? It's called the body. Well, how called? It's called the body. Well, how did he design a body to get from here to did he design a body to get from here to did he design a body to get from here to there? And you start to look at the there? And you start to look at the there? And you start to look at the neurological and physiological systems neurological and physiological systems neurological and physiological systems that God built into the human body that that God built into the human body that that God built into the human body that are talked about throughout the New are talked about throughout the New are talked about throughout the New Testament that actually cause us to be Testament that actually cause us to be Testament that actually cause us to be able to perform. And that's that's what able to perform. And that's that's what able to perform. And that's that's what the book's about. It's a simple map. the book's about. It's a simple map. the book's about. It's a simple map. >> So, you have a pretty big uh collection >> So, you have a pretty big uh collection >> So, you have a pretty big uh collection of books you've written, co-authored of books you've written, co-authored of books you've written, co-authored over the years. How many how many is over the years. How many how many is over the years. How many how many is this now? this now? this now? >> How many have so no how many? No. Uh how >> How many have so no how many? No. Uh how >> How many have so no how many? No. Uh how many books you written? many books you written? many books you written? >> They'd say it's in the 40s. I don't >> They'd say it's in the 40s. I don't >> They'd say it's in the 40s. I don't know. know. know. >> In the 40s. Okay. >> In the 40s. Okay. >> In the 40s. Okay. >> I don't know. Exactly. >> I don't know. Exactly. >> I don't know. Exactly. >> So again, that's over. >> So again, that's over. >> So again, that's over. >> But I've also had two parallel lanes.

>> But I've also had two parallel lanes. >> But I've also had two parallel lanes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Got two, >> Got two, >> Got two, you know, the psychologist you know, the psychologist you know, the psychologist growth growth growth >> self-help world if you will. And then >> self-help world if you will. And then >> self-help world if you will. And then the leadership. the leadership. the leadership. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I've had two. >> I've had two. >> I've had two. >> But you know, times change. We got a lot >> But you know, times change. We got a lot >> But you know, times change. We got a lot of young leaders watching, listening. Uh of young leaders watching, listening. Uh of young leaders watching, listening. Uh if you think back over those 40 some odd if you think back over those 40 some odd if you think back over those 40 some odd books, is there one in particular could books, is there one in particular could books, is there one in particular could have been written 20 years ago, 10 years have been written 20 years ago, 10 years have been written 20 years ago, 10 years ago that you're like, "Hey, in this ago that you're like, "Hey, in this ago that you're like, "Hey, in this moment we're in in culture right now in moment we're in in culture right now in moment we're in in culture right now in the leadership culture, I you know, buy the leadership culture, I you know, buy the leadership culture, I you know, buy my new book, but take a look at this my new book, but take a look at this my new book, but take a look at this one, too." one, too." one, too." Um, one in particular, I think it would Um, one in particular, I think it would Um, one in particular, I think it would be boundaries for leaders. be boundaries for leaders. be boundaries for leaders. Um, because in that book, and and I Um, because in that book, and and I Um, because in that book, and and I wrote that probably roughly 10 years wrote that probably roughly 10 years wrote that probably roughly 10 years ago, maybe. Okay. About a decade ago, ago, maybe. Okay. About a decade ago, ago, maybe. Okay. About a decade ago, >> but but there's a lot in that book >> but but there's a lot in that book >> but but there's a lot in that book about, you know, we've got so much about, you know, we've got so much about, you know, we've got so much scatteredness now and inability to get scatteredness now and inability to get scatteredness now and inability to get people focused and and all of that. And people focused and and all of that. And people focused and and all of that. And and it's it's about the human dynamics and it's it's about the human dynamics and it's it's about the human dynamics um that are involved in the boundaries um that are involved in the boundaries um that are involved in the boundaries that leaders have to set to make things that leaders have to set to make things that leaders have to set to make things work.

work. work. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And I'd say that one um for leadership >> And I'd say that one um for leadership >> And I'd say that one um for leadership um necessary endings. Oh. Um, that's one um necessary endings. Oh. Um, that's one um necessary endings. Oh. Um, that's one of my perpetual recommends. of my perpetual recommends. of my perpetual recommends. >> Yeah, that's >> Yeah, that's >> Yeah, that's >> it's so good and it's so >> it's so good and it's so >> it's so good and it's so counterintuitive particularly because it counterintuitive particularly because it counterintuitive particularly because it >> and trust. >> and trust. >> and trust. >> Yeah. TR, you know what? Those are the >> Yeah. TR, you know what? Those are the >> Yeah. TR, you know what? Those are the two that I always talk about. Trust and two that I always talk about. Trust and two that I always talk about. Trust and necessary endings. That large book you necessary endings. That large book you necessary endings. That large book you wrote a few years ago on trust. And on wrote a few years ago on trust. And on wrote a few years ago on trust. And on that note, I'll just underscore this. We that note, I'll just underscore this. We that note, I'll just underscore this. We talked about it when before when you talked about it when before when you talked about it when before when you were on the show. Uh, your last third of were on the show. Uh, your last third of were on the show. Uh, your last third of the book or 20% of the book on what to the book or 20% of the book on what to the book or 20% of the book on what to do to restore somebody who's broken your do to restore somebody who's broken your do to restore somebody who's broken your trust or fallen. Yeah, trust or fallen. Yeah, trust or fallen. Yeah, >> huge and hands down the best stuff I've >> huge and hands down the best stuff I've >> huge and hands down the best stuff I've ever read. If you're thinking about ever read. If you're thinking about ever read. If you're thinking about restoring someone to ministry, restoring someone to ministry, restoring someone to ministry, >> um restoring a broken relationship, >> um restoring a broken relationship, >> um restoring a broken relationship, restoring a staff member, restoring a restoring a staff member, restoring a restoring a staff member, restoring a marriage, whatever that is. I mean, it's marriage, whatever that is. I mean, it's marriage, whatever that is. I mean, it's it's not it's not a short section for a it's not it's not a short section for a it's not it's not a short section for a reason. reason. reason. >> And restoring somebody's not short and >> And restoring somebody's not short and >> And restoring somebody's not short and easy either, shouldn't be, easy either, shouldn't be, easy either, shouldn't be, >> but it's very >> but it's very >> but it's very >> it's possible. >> it's possible. >> it's possible. >> It's possible. And we either banish them >> It's possible. And we either banish them >> It's possible. And we either banish them to the wilderness or we they just set up to the wilderness or we they just set up to the wilderness or we they just set up shop overnight across shop overnight across shop overnight across >> Yeah. unchanged.

>> Yeah. unchanged. >> Yeah. unchanged. >> Both are bad. >> Both are bad. >> Both are bad. >> And find enablers to to help them do >> And find enablers to to help them do >> And find enablers to to help them do that. Can Can I mention one that. Can Can I mention one that. Can Can I mention one other book? other book? other book? >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> I I jumped out of my lane last year. >> I I jumped out of my lane last year. >> I I jumped out of my lane last year. >> Um I I always try to stay in my lane, >> Um I I always try to stay in my lane, >> Um I I always try to stay in my lane, not pontificate about stuff I don't know not pontificate about stuff I don't know not pontificate about stuff I don't know anything about. But this uh instead of a anything about. But this uh instead of a anything about. But this uh instead of a a psychology or leadership book, um a psychology or leadership book, um a psychology or leadership book, um I have so many non-Christian friends I have so many non-Christian friends I have so many non-Christian friends that the conversation is hard to have in that the conversation is hard to have in that the conversation is hard to have in today's environment, you know, about today's environment, you know, about today's environment, you know, about faith because they think you're one of faith because they think you're one of faith because they think you're one of those. And but there were so many that I those. And but there were so many that I those. And but there were so many that I I wanted them to understand why I I wanted them to understand why I I wanted them to understand why I believe this stuff. Um and so I believe this stuff. Um and so I believe this stuff. Um and so I [clears throat] finally wrote a book of [clears throat] finally wrote a book of [clears throat] finally wrote a book of my journey of faith. Um and how I came my journey of faith. Um and how I came my journey of faith. Um and how I came to faith. The subtit title is why I to faith. The subtit title is why I to faith. The subtit title is why I believe. But the subtitle is the believe. But the subtitle is the believe. But the subtitle is the psychologist thoughts on suffering, psychologist thoughts on suffering, psychologist thoughts on suffering, miracles, science and faith because that miracles, science and faith because that miracles, science and faith because that was my path. I was in deep suffering was my path. I was in deep suffering was my path. I was in deep suffering when I hit bottom.

when I hit bottom. when I hit bottom. >> God stepped in with some major and has >> God stepped in with some major and has >> God stepped in with some major and has done so many miracles that are done so many miracles that are done so many miracles that are undeniable. undeniable. undeniable. And then it brought up all the science And then it brought up all the science And then it brought up all the science questions and the obstacles and the hard questions and the obstacles and the hard questions and the obstacles and the hard questions and how he resolved those for questions and how he resolved those for questions and how he resolved those for me. And then particular section on the me. And then particular section on the me. And then particular section on the science of psychology and how it it science of psychology and how it it science of psychology and how it it proved the Bible to me to be true and proved the Bible to me to be true and proved the Bible to me to be true and but I wrote it so people could give it but I wrote it so people could give it but I wrote it so people could give it to their non-believing friends and equip to their non-believing friends and equip to their non-believing friends and equip other Christians as well. other Christians as well. other Christians as well. >> I love those books and I so appreciate >> I love those books and I so appreciate >> I love those books and I so appreciate you Henry. Thank you so much for being you Henry. Thank you so much for being you Henry. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time today with so generous with your time today with so generous with your time today with your insights. your insights. your insights. >> Great to be here >> Great to be here >> Great to be here >> with your wisdom. You uh you helped a >> with your wisdom. You uh you helped a >> with your wisdom. You uh you helped a lot of leaders and you helped me as lot of leaders and you helped me as lot of leaders and you helped me as always. always. always. >> Well, and and you're helping a lot of >> Well, and and you're helping a lot of >> Well, and and you're helping a lot of leaders, too. You've given and built a leaders, too. You've given and built a leaders, too. You've given and built a great platform for you know, where do great platform for you know, where do great platform for you know, where do you where do you go to get a a good dose you where do you go to get a a good dose you where do you go to get a a good dose of something practical that can help you of something practical that can help you of something practical that can help you and you keep doing that. So, and you keep doing that. So, and you keep doing that. So, >> well, thank you, Henry. >> well, thank you, Henry. >> well, thank you, Henry. >> God bless you. >> God bless you. >> God bless you. >> I learn so much whenever I get together >> I learn so much whenever I get together >> I learn so much whenever I get together with Henry and he's one of the nicest with Henry and he's one of the nicest with Henry and he's one of the nicest people as well. uh just a genuinely good people as well. uh just a genuinely good people as well. uh just a genuinely good soul who has helped so many of us soul who has helped so many of us soul who has helped so many of us navigate so many issues personal and navigate so many issues personal and navigate so many issues personal and leadership and otherwise. If you want leadership and otherwise. If you want leadership and otherwise. If you want the show notes for this, you can find it the show notes for this, you can find it the show notes for this, you can find it all inside my Art of Leadership Academy.

all inside my Art of Leadership Academy. all inside my Art of Leadership Academy. You can join well almost 20,000 leaders You can join well almost 20,000 leaders You can join well almost 20,000 leaders who have now signed up. You can get a who have now signed up. You can get a who have now signed up. You can get a free account starting today. Just click free account starting today. Just click free account starting today. Just click the link wherever you're watching or the link wherever you're watching or the link wherever you're watching or listening to this episode and you can listening to this episode and you can listening to this episode and you can get in the academy. And we have some get in the academy. And we have some get in the academy. And we have some great conversations, too. conversations great conversations, too. conversations great conversations, too. conversations about these shows, conversations about about these shows, conversations about about these shows, conversations about issues without all the usual nonsense issues without all the usual nonsense issues without all the usual nonsense that you find online. So, if you want to that you find online. So, if you want to that you find online. So, if you want to join 20,000 other like-minded leaders, join 20,000 other like-minded leaders, join 20,000 other like-minded leaders, go to the art of leadershipacademy.com. go to the art of leadershipacademy.com. go to the art of leadershipacademy.com. Next episode, another in-person Next episode, another in-person Next episode, another in-person interview. We did a lot of these as we interview. We did a lot of these as we interview. We did a lot of these as we kick off 2026. Patrick Lanchion is back. kick off 2026. Patrick Lanchion is back. kick off 2026. Patrick Lanchion is back. He opens up about his dark night of the He opens up about his dark night of the He opens up about his dark night of the soul. My goodness, do we go deep, how soul. My goodness, do we go deep, how soul. My goodness, do we go deep, how work can heal you, and a whole lot more. work can heal you, and a whole lot more. work can heal you, and a whole lot more. are also coming up. Speaking about are also coming up. Speaking about are also coming up. Speaking about opening up your soul, Craig Rashelle, opening up your soul, Craig Rashelle, opening up your soul, Craig Rashelle, Dr. Wayne Chappelle, Beth Moore, Katie Dr. Wayne Chappelle, Beth Moore, Katie Dr. Wayne Chappelle, Beth Moore, Katie Cole, JJ and Kate Tomlin, Jenny Allen, Cole, JJ and Kate Tomlin, Jenny Allen, Cole, JJ and Kate Tomlin, Jenny Allen, and a whole lot more. Thank you so much and a whole lot more. Thank you so much and a whole lot more. Thank you so much for listening and this conversation was for listening and this conversation was for listening and this conversation was helpful. One of the kindest things you helpful. One of the kindest things you helpful. One of the kindest things you could do, share it with a friend and could do, share it with a friend and could do, share it with a friend and then hit follow and leave a review or a then hit follow and leave a review or a then hit follow and leave a review or a rating. And if you do that, you know rating. And if you do that, you know rating. And if you do that, you know what? This show gets bigger. As it gets what? This show gets bigger. As it gets what? This show gets bigger. As it gets bigger, we can bring you the very best bigger, we can bring you the very best bigger, we can bring you the very best guests on the planet. Thank you so much guests on the planet. Thank you so much guests on the planet. Thank you so much for listening and we'll catch you next for listening and we'll catch you next for listening and we'll catch you next time. I hope our time together today time. I hope our time together today time. I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth helped you identify and break a growth helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.