Avoid These PITFALLS That Can Destroy Your Spiritual Progress with Max Lucado

And I caught myself uh going to a And I caught myself uh going to a convenience store across town so no one convenience store across town so no one convenience store across town so no one would see me and buying a beer and would see me and buying a beer and would see me and buying a beer and sitting out in my car uh to take the sitting out in my car uh to take the sitting out in my car uh to take the edge off. And that's when I felt edge off. And that's when I felt edge off. And that's when I felt convicted by the spirit. What are you convicted by the spirit. What are you convicted by the spirit. What are you doing? What are you doing? Are you going doing? What are you doing? Are you going doing? What are you doing? Are you going to go down that path again? I hadn't had to go down that path again? I hadn't had to go down that path again? I hadn't had any struggle with alcohol any struggle with alcohol any struggle with alcohol 20 in what 25 years. I was probably 50 20 in what 25 years. I was probably 50 20 in what 25 years. I was probably 50 at the time, 30 years. And so, um, I had at the time, 30 years. And so, um, I had at the time, 30 years. And so, um, I had to deal with that. And so, I've made a to deal with that. And so, I've made a to deal with that. And so, I've made a lot of bad mistakes. I think the good lot of bad mistakes. I think the good lot of bad mistakes. I think the good choice I made that particular time was choice I made that particular time was choice I made that particular time was to call my elders and to have a meeting to call my elders and to have a meeting to call my elders and to have a meeting with them and come clean. Welcome to the with them and come clean. Welcome to the with them and come clean. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. Today, Max Lukeo and man, we go deep. We Today, Max Lukeo and man, we go deep. We Today, Max Lukeo and man, we go deep. We talk about how to know when you've talk about how to know when you've talk about how to know when you've crossed a moral line. talk about church crossed a moral line. talk about church crossed a moral line. talk about church leadership, the situation at Gateway leadership, the situation at Gateway leadership, the situation at Gateway where he stepped in in Dallas, moral where he stepped in in Dallas, moral where he stepped in in Dallas, moral failure, and how to tame your thoughts. failure, and how to tame your thoughts. failure, and how to tame your thoughts. It's going to be a rich feast. I'm It's going to be a rich feast. I'm It's going to be a rich feast. I'm really glad you joined us. Hey, did you really glad you joined us. Hey, did you really glad you joined us. Hey, did you know you can access full show notes and know you can access full show notes and know you can access full show notes and engage in discussion inside my Art of engage in discussion inside my Art of engage in discussion inside my Art of Leadership Academy? You can visit Leadership Academy? You can visit Leadership Academy? You can visit caryneuhoff.com/showotes caryneuhoff.com/showotes caryneuhoff.com/showotes or just click the invite link in the or just click the invite link in the or just click the invite link in the description of this episode. You will description of this episode. You will description of this episode. You will get instant access to this episode's get instant access to this episode's get instant access to this episode's show notes, all future show notes for show notes, all future show notes for show notes, all future show notes for free, plus a robust discussion on every free, plus a robust discussion on every free, plus a robust discussion on every episode that goes way beyond the YouTube episode that goes way beyond the YouTube episode that goes way beyond the YouTube comment. So like, subscribe, and leave a comment. So like, subscribe, and leave a comment. So like, subscribe, and leave a comment to join the conversation. And comment to join the conversation. And comment to join the conversation. And now, a word from today's partners, and now, a word from today's partners, and now, a word from today's partners, and then we'll dive into the conversation.

then we'll dive into the conversation. then we'll dive into the conversation. This episode is brought to you by the This episode is brought to you by the This episode is brought to you by the GLS. I don't need to tell you how GLS. I don't need to tell you how GLS. I don't need to tell you how demanding ministry has become. All demanding ministry has become. All demanding ministry has become. All right, you know it. between burnout, right, you know it. between burnout, right, you know it. between burnout, complexity, and leading through constant complexity, and leading through constant complexity, and leading through constant change, the work you're doing takes deep change, the work you're doing takes deep change, the work you're doing takes deep wisdom and fresh perspective. And that's wisdom and fresh perspective. And that's wisdom and fresh perspective. And that's exactly why I make the Global Leadership exactly why I make the Global Leadership exactly why I make the Global Leadership Summit a priority every year. I'm going Summit a priority every year. I'm going Summit a priority every year. I'm going to be there in Chicago happening August to be there in Chicago happening August to be there in Chicago happening August 7th through 8th at this year's Global 7th through 8th at this year's Global 7th through 8th at this year's Global Leadership Summit. It's 2 days of Leadership Summit. It's 2 days of Leadership Summit. It's 2 days of powerful, worldclass faculty speaking powerful, worldclass faculty speaking powerful, worldclass faculty speaking into the real challenges that you face into the real challenges that you face into the real challenges that you face as a church leader. And here's what'll as a church leader. And here's what'll as a church leader. And here's what'll happen. You're going to walk away happen. You're going to walk away happen. You're going to walk away encouraged, inspired, and equipped to encouraged, inspired, and equipped to encouraged, inspired, and equipped to lead your church with greater clarity lead your church with greater clarity lead your church with greater clarity and with confidence. Now, because I'm and with confidence. Now, because I'm and with confidence. Now, because I'm going to be there and we have a going to be there and we have a going to be there and we have a partnership with the GLS, I've got an partnership with the GLS, I've got an partnership with the GLS, I've got an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. exclusive offer for podcast listeners. exclusive offer for podcast listeners. Use the code GLS25 carry and you'll get Use the code GLS25 carry and you'll get Use the code GLS25 carry and you'll get 10% off your ticket at a local host site 10% off your ticket at a local host site 10% off your ticket at a local host site or online. act before the early bird or online. act before the early bird or online. act before the early bird deadline on July 16th. Your price drops deadline on July 16th. Your price drops deadline on July 16th. Your price drops from 221 to just $1.99 and the code from 221 to just $1.99 and the code from 221 to just $1.99 and the code works through August 7th even as prices works through August 7th even as prices works through August 7th even as prices go up. So interested, go to go up. So interested, go to go up. So interested, go to globalleership.org/summit globalleership.org/summit globalleership.org/summit [Music] [Music] [Music] and use the coupon code glarry.

and use the coupon code glarry. and use the coupon code glarry. That's GLS25c That's GLS25c That's GLS25c at checkout. I don't miss it because at checkout. I don't miss it because at checkout. I don't miss it because frankly I want to stay out on the latest frankly I want to stay out on the latest frankly I want to stay out on the latest stuff and I love attending the global stuff and I love attending the global stuff and I love attending the global leadership summit. So will I see you leadership summit. So will I see you leadership summit. So will I see you there this August? You lead others there this August? You lead others there this August? You lead others spiritually. Take the time to invest in spiritually. Take the time to invest in spiritually. Take the time to invest in yourself. Today's episode is brought to yourself. Today's episode is brought to yourself. Today's episode is brought to you by Spire. You know in the world of you by Spire. You know in the world of you by Spire. You know in the world of ministry we all know that stronger ministry we all know that stronger ministry we all know that stronger leaders mean stronger churches. But leaders mean stronger churches. But leaders mean stronger churches. But encouraging and equipping those leaders encouraging and equipping those leaders encouraging and equipping those leaders can sometimes be well pretty can sometimes be well pretty can sometimes be well pretty challenging. And that's where Spire challenging. And that's where Spire challenging. And that's where Spire Conference comes in. Spire Conference is Conference comes in. Spire Conference is Conference comes in. Spire Conference is a transformative event tailored to a transformative event tailored to a transformative event tailored to empower and encourage leaders just like empower and encourage leaders just like empower and encourage leaders just like you through inspiring speakers such as you through inspiring speakers such as you through inspiring speakers such as well podcast guests Max Luc and Kyle well podcast guests Max Luc and Kyle well podcast guests Max Luc and Kyle Idleman, practical content, topical Idleman, practical content, topical Idleman, practical content, topical breakout sessions, meaningful breakout sessions, meaningful breakout sessions, meaningful connections, and a whole lot more. The connections, and a whole lot more. The connections, and a whole lot more. The event truly has something of value for event truly has something of value for event truly has something of value for every person and role on your team. And every person and role on your team. And every person and role on your team. And the goal is you can all grow and build the goal is you can all grow and build the goal is you can all grow and build momentum together. So to learn more and momentum together. So to learn more and momentum together. So to learn more and get your tickets, visit get your tickets, visit get your tickets, visit spireconference.glue.com. spireconference.glue.com. spireconference.glue.com. That's s p i r econference.g That's s p i r econference.g That's s p i r econference.g loo.com.

loo.com. loo.com. Use the code carry. You'll get $50 off Use the code carry. You'll get $50 off Use the code carry. You'll get $50 off each ticket. That's c a r e y for $50 each ticket. That's c a r e y for $50 each ticket. That's c a r e y for $50 off each ticket. And pastors attending off each ticket. And pastors attending off each ticket. And pastors attending Spire Conference 2025 is truly investing Spire Conference 2025 is truly investing Spire Conference 2025 is truly investing in the growth of you, your staff, and in the growth of you, your staff, and in the growth of you, your staff, and your church. You don't want to miss this your church. You don't want to miss this your church. You don't want to miss this one. Max, it's so good to have you back. one. Max, it's so good to have you back. one. Max, it's so good to have you back. Ah, thank you, Carrie. You're my A-roll. Ah, thank you, Carrie. You're my A-roll. Ah, thank you, Carrie. You're my A-roll. I never turn down the opportunity to I never turn down the opportunity to I never turn down the opportunity to have a conversation with you. have a conversation with you. have a conversation with you. You're a busy guy and I appreciate you You're a busy guy and I appreciate you You're a busy guy and I appreciate you working me in. And I got to tell you, I working me in. And I got to tell you, I working me in. And I got to tell you, I mean, you and I, we actually have not mean, you and I, we actually have not mean, you and I, we actually have not spent time together in person, which we spent time together in person, which we spent time together in person, which we have to remedy, have to remedy, have to remedy, but it feels like you've been a friend but it feels like you've been a friend but it feels like you've been a friend for 40 years. Likewise, likewise. for 40 years. Likewise, likewise. for 40 years. Likewise, likewise. There's a comfort there. And I think you There's a comfort there. And I think you There's a comfort there. And I think you are that way to a lot of people who are that way to a lot of people who are that way to a lot of people who listen to you preach, who read all of listen to you preach, who read all of listen to you preach, who read all of your books. And so, I thought I'd start your books. And so, I thought I'd start your books. And so, I thought I'd start with a real shallow question this time with a real shallow question this time with a real shallow question this time around. No, we're going to go right into around. No, we're going to go right into around. No, we're going to go right into the deep end. Uh, in the last year, you the deep end. Uh, in the last year, you the deep end. Uh, in the last year, you got into an interming situation. We've got into an interming situation. We've got into an interming situation. We've talked about succession before and what talked about succession before and what talked about succession before and what you're doing with your life and God's you're doing with your life and God's you're doing with your life and God's call on your life and your call to write call on your life and your call to write call on your life and your call to write and your role at the church that you, and your role at the church that you, and your role at the church that you, you know, pastored for many years, but you know, pastored for many years, but you know, pastored for many years, but now you've stepped into an interimm now you've stepped into an interimm now you've stepped into an interimm teaching role at Gateway during really teaching role at Gateway during really teaching role at Gateway during really an exceptionally challenging season for an exceptionally challenging season for an exceptionally challenging season for that church. So, I'd love for you to that church. So, I'd love for you to that church. So, I'd love for you to take us back when you got the call. What take us back when you got the call. What take us back when you got the call. What was your thought process? What made you was your thought process? What made you was your thought process? What made you think, "Yeah, I'm going to accept this think, "Yeah, I'm going to accept this think, "Yeah, I'm going to accept this assignment."

assignment." assignment." Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. That's a good question. And I I I think That's a good question. And I I I think That's a good question. And I I I think the place to start would be to say I the place to start would be to say I the place to start would be to say I have a long history with Gateway. have a long history with Gateway. have a long history with Gateway. Yeah. Um, not I've never been on their Yeah. Um, not I've never been on their Yeah. Um, not I've never been on their staff, but uh I live in San Antonio and staff, but uh I live in San Antonio and staff, but uh I live in San Antonio and of course the Gateway uh primary focus of course the Gateway uh primary focus of course the Gateway uh primary focus of the Gateway Church is in the Dallas of the Gateway Church is in the Dallas of the Gateway Church is in the Dallas Fort Worth area. They do have many uh Fort Worth area. They do have many uh Fort Worth area. They do have many uh campuses or expressions uh communities campuses or expressions uh communities campuses or expressions uh communities they call themselves of Gateway around they call themselves of Gateway around they call themselves of Gateway around the world and it's an extraordinary the world and it's an extraordinary the world and it's an extraordinary work. Uh I love the Gateway Church. I work. Uh I love the Gateway Church. I work. Uh I love the Gateway Church. I really do. Uh, I've always been so really do. Uh, I've always been so really do. Uh, I've always been so impressed with their worship, the impressed with their worship, the impressed with their worship, the quality of their worship, uh, their quality of their worship, uh, their quality of their worship, uh, their staff, extraordinary people, uh, very staff, extraordinary people, uh, very staff, extraordinary people, uh, very hospitable, extremely generous. I've met hospitable, extremely generous. I've met hospitable, extremely generous. I've met people, especially since people, especially since people, especially since Yeah, they they give money away. Uh, Yeah, they they give money away. Uh, Yeah, they they give money away. Uh, they they manage money well. And so, they they manage money well. And so, they they manage money well. And so, there's so much to love about the there's so much to love about the there's so much to love about the Gateway Church. and when this news Gateway Church. and when this news Gateway Church. and when this news erupted uh about a year a well it's a erupted uh about a year a well it's a erupted uh about a year a well it's a year ago in June be June of 2024 and so year ago in June be June of 2024 and so year ago in June be June of 2024 and so it's been over a year since the news it's been over a year since the news it's been over a year since the news came out and uh I can remember where I came out and uh I can remember where I came out and uh I can remember where I was I was on vacation uh my wife and I was I was on vacation uh my wife and I was I was on vacation uh my wife and I were together and we just couldn't were together and we just couldn't were together and we just couldn't believe it we were stunned we were we believe it we were stunned we were we believe it we were stunned we were we were had no idea no idea whatsoever were had no idea no idea whatsoever were had no idea no idea whatsoever uh they reached out they being uh one of uh they reached out they being uh one of uh they reached out they being uh one of the elders a wonderful and reached out

the elders a wonderful and reached out the elders a wonderful and reached out to see what I guest speak. And so to see what I guest speak. And so to see what I guest speak. And so immediately when I came back from immediately when I came back from immediately when I came back from vacation, I went, the news was still vacation, I went, the news was still vacation, I went, the news was still very very raw at the church and I could very very raw at the church and I could very very raw at the church and I could tell and uh we came and and and prayed. tell and uh we came and and and prayed. tell and uh we came and and and prayed. My wife was with me and my wife is she My wife was with me and my wife is she My wife was with me and my wife is she just has a heart for prayer and so I just has a heart for prayer and so I just has a heart for prayer and so I asked her to offer the prayer and you asked her to offer the prayer and you asked her to offer the prayer and you could hear people crying and sniff. It could hear people crying and sniff. It could hear people crying and sniff. It was just we're only two or three weeks was just we're only two or three weeks was just we're only two or three weeks out from the news, right? was still real out from the news, right? was still real out from the news, right? was still real new. new. new. Um, and and then I I shared a message Um, and and then I I shared a message Um, and and then I I shared a message and then soon thereafter they asked, and then soon thereafter they asked, and then soon thereafter they asked, would you be willing to serve uh with would you be willing to serve uh with would you be willing to serve uh with Pastor Yookum, a a wonderful fellow from Pastor Yookum, a a wonderful fellow from Pastor Yookum, a a wonderful fellow from Sweden of all things? Uh, and would the Sweden of all things? Uh, and would the Sweden of all things? Uh, and would the two of you be our interim pastors? Now, two of you be our interim pastors? Now, two of you be our interim pastors? Now, to be clear, that did not mean I would to be clear, that did not mean I would to be clear, that did not mean I would be in on any decisions, be in on any decisions, be in on any decisions, uh, any any, uh, strategic changes. Uh, uh, any any, uh, strategic changes. Uh, uh, any any, uh, strategic changes. Uh, that wasn't my role. isn't my role. Uh that wasn't my role. isn't my role. Uh that wasn't my role. isn't my role. Uh but I was to step in and provide but I was to step in and provide but I was to step in and provide assistance during the time in the terms assistance during the time in the terms assistance during the time in the terms of helping with teaching the staff. I of helping with teaching the staff. I of helping with teaching the staff. I was a part of a staff retreat that I was a part of a staff retreat that I was a part of a staff retreat that I think was real strategic and then also think was real strategic and then also think was real strategic and then also uh uh as a preacher and and and I I was uh uh as a preacher and and and I I was uh uh as a preacher and and and I I was happy to do it. I really was. I love the happy to do it. I really was. I love the happy to do it. I really was. I love the Gateway Church and uh we were Gateway Church and uh we were Gateway Church and uh we were brokenhearted when we heard the news. Uh brokenhearted when we heard the news. Uh brokenhearted when we heard the news. Uh and so we've been happy to to make our and so we've been happy to to make our and so we've been happy to to make our weekend trips to Gateway over the last weekend trips to Gateway over the last weekend trips to Gateway over the last year.

year. year. Yeah. So you're taking on the teaching Yeah. So you're taking on the teaching Yeah. So you're taking on the teaching role which is also really a pastoral role which is also really a pastoral role which is also really a pastoral care role, right? care role, right? care role, right? Is what it is. Is what it is. Is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, Max, when I think about And you know, Max, when I think about And you know, Max, when I think about your heart, I think you have a a your heart, I think you have a a your heart, I think you have a a pastor's heart. pastor's heart. pastor's heart. How do you carry the weight in a How do you carry the weight in a How do you carry the weight in a situation? Because there are people situation? Because there are people situation? Because there are people listening, you got leaders listening now listening, you got leaders listening now listening, you got leaders listening now who are in a similar situation. and they who are in a similar situation. and they who are in a similar situation. and they walked into a moral failure, an abuse walked into a moral failure, an abuse walked into a moral failure, an abuse situation with a predecessor. And you situation with a predecessor. And you situation with a predecessor. And you know, there's so much trauma, there's know, there's so much trauma, there's know, there's so much trauma, there's hurt over what actually happened, hurt over what actually happened, hurt over what actually happened, there's anger, there's sadness, there's there's anger, there's sadness, there's there's anger, there's sadness, there's what do you do with the victims, how do what do you do with the victims, how do what do you do with the victims, how do you help all of that. What do you do you help all of that. What do you do you help all of that. What do you do about, you know, the trust that's been about, you know, the trust that's been about, you know, the trust that's been broken? So, you know, from your broken? So, you know, from your broken? So, you know, from your perspective, perspective, perspective, how do you carry that? how do you carry that? how do you carry that? Step one from my perspective is to help Step one from my perspective is to help Step one from my perspective is to help people create a vocabulary for what people create a vocabulary for what people create a vocabulary for what they're feeling. they're feeling. they're feeling. Help them put a word on this emotion. Um Help them put a word on this emotion. Um Help them put a word on this emotion. Um and and try to trace that emotion back and and try to trace that emotion back and and try to trace that emotion back to its source. There are a variety of to its source. There are a variety of to its source. There are a variety of words that work, but the word that words that work, but the word that words that work, but the word that seemed to connect, especially as I was seemed to connect, especially as I was seemed to connect, especially as I was talking with staff u and and creating talking with staff u and and creating talking with staff u and and creating messages, especially for the staff, is messages, especially for the staff, is messages, especially for the staff, is the word disappointment.

the word disappointment. the word disappointment. They're just disappointed, They're just disappointed, They're just disappointed, right? You you have this expectation of right? You you have this expectation of right? You you have this expectation of leadership and when this expectation leadership and when this expectation leadership and when this expectation goes unmet, goes unmet, goes unmet, it could be anger, it could be hurt, but it could be anger, it could be hurt, but it could be anger, it could be hurt, but down deep there's just a sense of, you down deep there's just a sense of, you down deep there's just a sense of, you know, disappointment, disappointment know, disappointment, disappointment know, disappointment, disappointment that uh this person kind of let us down. that uh this person kind of let us down. that uh this person kind of let us down. There's a sense of feeling betrayed, There's a sense of feeling betrayed, There's a sense of feeling betrayed, disrespected, disrespected, disrespected, um stunned. We want to cry, but what we um stunned. We want to cry, but what we um stunned. We want to cry, but what we feel is this deep, deep disappoint. I feel is this deep, deep disappoint. I feel is this deep, deep disappoint. I always thought that's an interesting always thought that's an interesting always thought that's an interesting word, disappointment. You know, word, disappointment. You know, word, disappointment. You know, yeah, that's not maybe the one I would yeah, that's not maybe the one I would yeah, that's not maybe the one I would have chosen. So, I'd love to know a have chosen. So, I'd love to know a have chosen. So, I'd love to know a little bit more. Why would you have little bit more. Why would you have little bit more. Why would you have picked disappointment? picked disappointment? picked disappointment? The very word disappointment The very word disappointment The very word disappointment suggests that we had an appointment that suggests that we had an appointment that suggests that we had an appointment that didn't happen. Disappointment. And that didn't happen. Disappointment. And that didn't happen. Disappointment. And that when we when we um disengage or or or when we when we um disengage or or or when we when we um disengage or or or experience a disgrace experience a disgrace experience a disgrace uh the dis uh changes engage or grace uh the dis uh changes engage or grace uh the dis uh changes engage or grace into an entirely different u feeling or into an entirely different u feeling or into an entirely different u feeling or an emotion. This appointment implies an emotion. This appointment implies an emotion. This appointment implies that we had an expectation.

that we had an expectation. that we had an expectation. Uh we expected our leaders to behave in Uh we expected our leaders to behave in Uh we expected our leaders to behave in such a way. We all have appointments. We such a way. We all have appointments. We such a way. We all have appointments. We love appointments. But a disappointment love appointments. But a disappointment love appointments. But a disappointment reminds us that even the worst can reminds us that even the worst can reminds us that even the worst can happen. happen. happen. And it's very tough. It's it's it's a And it's very tough. It's it's it's a And it's very tough. It's it's it's a it's a shock. We wanted health, but we it's a shock. We wanted health, but we it's a shock. We wanted health, but we got a disease. We wanted retirement, we got a disease. We wanted retirement, we got a disease. We wanted retirement, we got reassignment. We wanted a family, we got reassignment. We wanted a family, we got reassignment. We wanted a family, we got divorce. We wanted an appointment, got divorce. We wanted an appointment, got divorce. We wanted an appointment, we got disappointment. A lot of life, we got disappointment. A lot of life, we got disappointment. A lot of life, especially in pastoral care, Carrie, I especially in pastoral care, Carrie, I especially in pastoral care, Carrie, I think, is helping people manage their think, is helping people manage their think, is helping people manage their expectations of life. is manage your expectations of life. is manage your expectations of life. is manage your expectations. In fact, I've I've noticed expectations. In fact, I've I've noticed expectations. In fact, I've I've noticed that really a healthy funeral message is that really a healthy funeral message is that really a healthy funeral message is helping people manage this un helping people manage this un helping people manage this un acknowledged expectation that this acknowledged expectation that this acknowledged expectation that this person is going to live forever. Now, person is going to live forever. Now, person is going to live forever. Now, you they never would have said that, but you they never would have said that, but you they never would have said that, but grief is this unmet expectation. Oh, grief is this unmet expectation. Oh, grief is this unmet expectation. Oh, she's gone. Oh, he's gone. Now, we knew she's gone. Oh, he's gone. Now, we knew she's gone. Oh, he's gone. Now, we knew they would go eventually, but we're just they would go eventually, but we're just they would go eventually, but we're just kind of disappointed. we we we don't get kind of disappointed. we we we don't get kind of disappointed. we we we don't get to keep that appointment. What I found to keep that appointment. What I found to keep that appointment. What I found it uh in church work and and in dealing it uh in church work and and in dealing it uh in church work and and in dealing with a situation like Gateway, help with a situation like Gateway, help with a situation like Gateway, help people see what you're dealing with here people see what you're dealing with here people see what you're dealing with here is the fact that you're hurt. You've is the fact that you're hurt. You've is the fact that you're hurt. You've been disappointed now that we put a word been disappointed now that we put a word been disappointed now that we put a word on it. Can we can we treat it? And so we on it. Can we can we treat it? And so we on it. Can we can we treat it? And so we started there. We started there. Uh, and started there. We started there. Uh, and started there. We started there. Uh, and that was in, you know, one-on-one that was in, you know, one-on-one that was in, you know, one-on-one conversations as well as I kept that in conversations as well as I kept that in conversations as well as I kept that in mind as I was selecting the messages

mind as I was selecting the messages mind as I was selecting the messages that I'd bring to the church. that I'd bring to the church. that I'd bring to the church. Yeah. You know, when you think about uh Yeah. You know, when you think about uh Yeah. You know, when you think about uh a journey over a year, you have the a journey over a year, you have the a journey over a year, you have the victim, and I know the incident in victim, and I know the incident in victim, and I know the incident in question happened a long, long time ago, question happened a long, long time ago, question happened a long, long time ago, and I'm not entirely familiar with and I'm not entirely familiar with and I'm not entirely familiar with what's happening with that situation, what's happening with that situation, what's happening with that situation, but you're also carrying the hurt of a but you're also carrying the hurt of a but you're also carrying the hurt of a congregation, the disappointment, and congregation, the disappointment, and congregation, the disappointment, and you know, when a leader has been you know, when a leader has been you know, when a leader has been abusive, as was the case of Gateway, abusive, as was the case of Gateway, abusive, as was the case of Gateway, you know, may not have abused directly you know, may not have abused directly you know, may not have abused directly people in the congregation, but they people in the congregation, but they people in the congregation, but they have their own stories. you know, it have their own stories. you know, it have their own stories. you know, it triggers, you know, the trauma that triggers, you know, the trauma that triggers, you know, the trauma that happened over here on the stage reminds happened over here on the stage reminds happened over here on the stage reminds me of the trauma that happened in my me of the trauma that happened in my me of the trauma that happened in my life, something that happened in my life, something that happened in my life, something that happened in my childhood, something that happened, you childhood, something that happened, you childhood, something that happened, you know, in a relationship that I had or know, in a relationship that I had or know, in a relationship that I had or something like that. So, when you think something like that. So, when you think something like that. So, when you think about, you know, carrying that kind of about, you know, carrying that kind of about, you know, carrying that kind of collective trauma, that disappointment, collective trauma, that disappointment, collective trauma, that disappointment, that that anger, that sadness, what does that that anger, that sadness, what does that that anger, that sadness, what does a journey look like? Where do you start? a journey look like? Where do you start? a journey look like? Where do you start? And then how do you move through that? The church has to be a safe place. Yeah, The church has to be a safe place. Yeah, that's our desire that this would be the that's our desire that this would be the that's our desire that this would be the place out of all the places I go during place out of all the places I go during place out of all the places I go during the week. Uh that I will hear a good the week. Uh that I will hear a good the week. Uh that I will hear a good word, an encouraging word. I'll be word, an encouraging word. I'll be word, an encouraging word. I'll be reminded that God loves me, God cares reminded that God loves me, God cares reminded that God loves me, God cares for me, and that somebody will speak to for me, and that somebody will speak to for me, and that somebody will speak to me from a biblical worldview, that there me from a biblical worldview, that there me from a biblical worldview, that there is a good God, a loving God, a coming is a good God, a loving God, a coming is a good God, a loving God, a coming God, a caring God, all the things that God, a caring God, all the things that God, a caring God, all the things that that we call the gospel, right? And um that we call the gospel, right? And um that we call the gospel, right? And um and when I come face to face with this

and when I come face to face with this and when I come face to face with this hurt that this church is not a safe hurt that this church is not a safe hurt that this church is not a safe place and the person who has been place and the person who has been place and the person who has been talking to me or teaching me has talking to me or teaching me has talking to me or teaching me has committed this atrocious act uh committed this atrocious act uh committed this atrocious act uh everything that he or she said is everything that he or she said is everything that he or she said is suddenly in question. uh you know can I suddenly in question. uh you know can I suddenly in question. uh you know can I can I believe I learned so much from him can I believe I learned so much from him can I believe I learned so much from him or I learned so much from her or what I or I learned so much from her or what I or I learned so much from her or what I heard quite often my life was changed in heard quite often my life was changed in heard quite often my life was changed in this church you know and and and nobody this church you know and and and nobody this church you know and and and nobody can question the number of people that can question the number of people that can question the number of people that the wonderful work of Gateway has the wonderful work of Gateway has the wonderful work of Gateway has impacted and people would tell me you impacted and people would tell me you impacted and people would tell me you know my my marriage was saved here and I know my my marriage was saved here and I know my my marriage was saved here and I think what they were saying was is it think what they were saying was is it think what they were saying was is it still valid what I was taught you you still valid what I was taught you you still valid what I was taught you you know, does this does this invalidate know, does this does this invalidate know, does this does this invalidate everything that I've experienced? everything that I've experienced? everything that I've experienced? And so, um, my wife was the one to first And so, um, my wife was the one to first And so, um, my wife was the one to first point this out. Um, I don't know if she point this out. Um, I don't know if she point this out. Um, I don't know if she said it in so many words to me, but she said it in so many words to me, but she said it in so many words to me, but she said, "Max, your job is to help people.

said, "Max, your job is to help people. said, "Max, your job is to help people. Remember that Jesus is the shepherd. Remember that Jesus is the shepherd. Remember that Jesus is the shepherd. Jesus is the shepherd. The undersheperds Jesus is the shepherd. The undersheperds Jesus is the shepherd. The undersheperds can fail and fall, but the shepherd, he can fail and fall, but the shepherd, he can fail and fall, but the shepherd, he has been the one who has been doing the has been the one who has been doing the has been the one who has been doing the teaching and the healing and the teaching and the healing and the teaching and the healing and the helping." Now, if you ask people like if helping." Now, if you ask people like if helping." Now, if you ask people like if you tell people that during a healthy you tell people that during a healthy you tell people that during a healthy season, they'll go, "Oh, yeah. I believe season, they'll go, "Oh, yeah. I believe season, they'll go, "Oh, yeah. I believe that 100%." But when a church is passing that 100%." But when a church is passing that 100%." But when a church is passing through a tough season, they might through a tough season, they might through a tough season, they might forget that forget that forget that and and and they might forget uh that and and and they might forget uh that and and and they might forget uh that Jesus can speak through infallible Jesus can speak through infallible Jesus can speak through infallible people, which if he can't, we're in people, which if he can't, we're in people, which if he can't, we're in trouble because we're all I mean, trouble because we're all I mean, trouble because we're all I mean, infallible people. I'm sorry. People who infallible people. I'm sorry. People who infallible people. I'm sorry. People who struggle. struggle. struggle. No, I know what you mean. No, I know what you mean. No, I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I think I think that's You know, and I think I think that's You know, and I think I think that's really well said, Max, because this is really well said, Max, because this is really well said, Max, because this is now a bigger issue. It's way bigger than now a bigger issue. It's way bigger than now a bigger issue. It's way bigger than Gateway. We can go back years, decades, Gateway. We can go back years, decades, Gateway. We can go back years, decades, unfortunately. unfortunately. unfortunately. Fallen evangelist after fallen pastor Fallen evangelist after fallen pastor Fallen evangelist after fallen pastor after fallen pastor after fallen pastor. after fallen pastor after fallen pastor. after fallen pastor after fallen pastor. And you know, sometimes there wasn't a And you know, sometimes there wasn't a And you know, sometimes there wasn't a lot of fruit in the ministry. It was lot of fruit in the ministry. It was lot of fruit in the ministry. It was like, no, that was a bad apple who did like, no, that was a bad apple who did like, no, that was a bad apple who did bad things and he's gone. But then bad things and he's gone. But then bad things and he's gone. But then sometimes, you know, and I don't want to sometimes, you know, and I don't want to sometimes, you know, and I don't want to get into specifics, but people listening get into specifics, but people listening get into specifics, but people listening understand and they'll fill in their own understand and they'll fill in their own understand and they'll fill in their own names.

names. names. There were lives changed. There were There were lives changed. There were There were lives changed. There were people called to ministry in the context people called to ministry in the context people called to ministry in the context of a church or a conference or an event. of a church or a conference or an event. of a church or a conference or an event. You know, I had somebody in my life last You know, I had somebody in my life last You know, I had somebody in my life last year. It came out that he was a serial year. It came out that he was a serial year. It came out that he was a serial abuser and I had no idea. And I worked abuser and I had no idea. And I worked abuser and I had no idea. And I worked really closely with him and I I I just I really closely with him and I I I just I really closely with him and I I I just I didn't know. And then it made me didn't know. And then it made me didn't know. And then it made me question the whole thing about well like question the whole thing about well like question the whole thing about well like all that work we did together, was it all that work we did together, was it all that work we did together, was it just garbage? Was it an act? And I look just garbage? Was it an act? And I look just garbage? Was it an act? And I look back and some of the principles actually back and some of the principles actually back and some of the principles actually hold up. And you know, we can think hold up. And you know, we can think hold up. And you know, we can think about other people that were really about other people that were really about other people that were really influential in our leadership and our influential in our leadership and our influential in our leadership and our ministry and our spiritual formation who ministry and our spiritual formation who ministry and our spiritual formation who aren't in ministry. And unfortunately, aren't in ministry. And unfortunately, aren't in ministry. And unfortunately, the list is in the dozens. the list is in the dozens. the list is in the dozens. And some of the work they did And some of the work they did And some of the work they did was actually life-changing. And people was actually life-changing. And people was actually life-changing. And people are going to be in heaven because of are going to be in heaven because of are going to be in heaven because of that. And I'm just wondering, you know, that. And I'm just wondering, you know, that. And I'm just wondering, you know, and I don't think there's an answer to and I don't think there's an answer to and I don't think there's an answer to this question, Max, and I'm not trying this question, Max, and I'm not trying this question, Max, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but my question to put you on the spot, but my question to put you on the spot, but my question is, what do you do with that? because is, what do you do with that? because is, what do you do with that? because that's something I wrestle with, right?

that's something I wrestle with, right? that's something I wrestle with, right? What do you do when you sort out, yeah, What do you do when you sort out, yeah, What do you do when you sort out, yeah, that person had a moral rot or a problem that person had a moral rot or a problem that person had a moral rot or a problem with them or a lie that they were living with them or a lie that they were living with them or a lie that they were living or or or a deep character flaw that hurt people a deep character flaw that hurt people a deep character flaw that hurt people very badly and in a way that is not very badly and in a way that is not very badly and in a way that is not consistent with the gospel and consistent with the gospel and consistent with the gospel and some of the ministry that they did bore some of the ministry that they did bore some of the ministry that they did bore fruit. What do you do when you live in fruit. What do you do when you live in fruit. What do you do when you live in that kind of paradox? And again, I don't that kind of paradox? And again, I don't that kind of paradox? And again, I don't think there's an answer to this think there's an answer to this think there's an answer to this question. I I I just think it's question. I I I just think it's question. I I I just think it's important to ask the question. Yeah. important to ask the question. Yeah. important to ask the question. Yeah. And it's a real question. It's a real And it's a real question. It's a real And it's a real question. It's a real question. question. question. Yeah. I know Yeah. I know Yeah. I know it is. And um so we could dig into it. I it is. And um so we could dig into it. I it is. And um so we could dig into it. I I wonder if you can remember the very I wonder if you can remember the very I wonder if you can remember the very first time uh that you were disappointed first time uh that you were disappointed first time uh that you were disappointed by a leader uh to whom you turned for by a leader uh to whom you turned for by a leader uh to whom you turned for advice or counsel and then later learned advice or counsel and then later learned advice or counsel and then later learned that they had done this or did that. that they had done this or did that. that they had done this or did that. Just a very quick story in in my life. Just a very quick story in in my life. Just a very quick story in in my life. uh you know when I when I was uh came uh you know when I when I was uh came uh you know when I when I was uh came out of seminary uh I was preparing to out of seminary uh I was preparing to out of seminary uh I was preparing to move to Brazil as a missionary and I move to Brazil as a missionary and I move to Brazil as a missionary and I lived in Miami, Florida and served on lived in Miami, Florida and served on lived in Miami, Florida and served on the staff of a church in Little Havana the staff of a church in Little Havana the staff of a church in Little Havana and uh they agreed uh as part of my and uh they agreed uh as part of my and uh they agreed uh as part of my preparation to get into Brazil uh to preparation to get into Brazil uh to preparation to get into Brazil uh to have a special offering on my behalf. I have a special offering on my behalf. I have a special offering on my behalf. I needed $15,000 Carrie to make the move.

needed $15,000 Carrie to make the move. needed $15,000 Carrie to make the move. I mean, to buy airplane tickets, to ship I mean, to buy airplane tickets, to ship I mean, to buy airplane tickets, to ship the car, ship the furniture, uh to do the car, ship the furniture, uh to do the car, ship the furniture, uh to do all the stuff you need to do when you all the stuff you need to do when you all the stuff you need to do when you move to another country. I was fresh out move to another country. I was fresh out move to another country. I was fresh out of college. I didn't have much money. of college. I didn't have much money. of college. I didn't have much money. They said, "We're going to have a Sunday They said, "We're going to have a Sunday They said, "We're going to have a Sunday offering and you can go out and and uh offering and you can go out and and uh offering and you can go out and and uh you can, you know, raise the money." And you can, you know, raise the money." And you can, you know, raise the money." And so I did. I I took people out to lunch. so I did. I I took people out to lunch. so I did. I I took people out to lunch. I went and visited people. I sent a I went and visited people. I sent a I went and visited people. I sent a churchwide uh mailing. I did everything churchwide uh mailing. I did everything churchwide uh mailing. I did everything I could because I was newly married. Uh, I could because I was newly married. Uh, I could because I was newly married. Uh, and I was about to take my wife to and I was about to take my wife to and I was about to take my wife to Brazil and I didn't have much money and Brazil and I didn't have much money and Brazil and I didn't have much money and I needed $15,000. No, I check that. I needed $15,000. No, I check that. I needed $15,000. No, I check that. Check that. I needed $10,000. Okay. So, Check that. I needed $10,000. Okay. So, Check that. I needed $10,000. Okay. So, so on the special offering, we raised so on the special offering, we raised so on the special offering, we raised $15,000 $15,000 $15,000 and I was blown away. and I was blown away. and I was blown away. I was stunned. Yeah. I had more money I was stunned. Yeah. I had more money I was stunned. Yeah. I had more money than I needed. So the following than I needed. So the following than I needed. So the following Saturday, the elders of the church Saturday, the elders of the church Saturday, the elders of the church called me into a special meeting. The called me into a special meeting. The called me into a special meeting. The same elders who had said, "We're going same elders who had said, "We're going same elders who had said, "We're going to give you this opportunity to raise to give you this opportunity to raise to give you this opportunity to raise this money uh and and I needed 10,000. I this money uh and and I needed 10,000. I this money uh and and I needed 10,000. I raised 15,000." And this is going to raised 15,000." And this is going to raised 15,000." And this is going to blow you away. And those elders are good blow you away. And those elders are good blow you away. And those elders are good men. I love them. But something got in men. I love them. But something got in men. I love them. But something got in their mind and they called me into a their mind and they called me into a their mind and they called me into a meeting and said, "Max, we're going to meeting and said, "Max, we're going to meeting and said, "Max, we're going to keep half of that for the church."

keep half of that for the church." keep half of that for the church." Hm. I did exactly what you did. What? Hm. I did exactly what you did. What? Hm. I did exactly what you did. What? That's not what you said. That's not what you said. That's not what you said. Yeah. Yeah. You went back on your word. Yeah. Yeah. You went back on your word. Yeah. Yeah. You went back on your word. That's not what you promised. And That's not what you promised. And That's not what you promised. And Carrie, I did the craziest thing right Carrie, I did the craziest thing right Carrie, I did the craziest thing right there in the meeting again. 26 years there in the meeting again. 26 years there in the meeting again. 26 years old, 24 year old wife, 3 months away old, 24 year old wife, 3 months away old, 24 year old wife, 3 months away from moving to Brazil. They told me that from moving to Brazil. They told me that from moving to Brazil. They told me that and I started to cry. and I started to cry. and I started to cry. And I'm not a weeper. I've got good And I'm not a weeper. I've got good And I'm not a weeper. I've got good friends who are friends who are friends who are I don't I wish I did to be honest. I don't I wish I did to be honest. I don't I wish I did to be honest. Cry on demand. Cry on demand. Cry on demand. I think sometimes my emotions stay I think sometimes my emotions stay I think sometimes my emotions stay bottled up, bottled up, bottled up, but I couldn't stop crying. I just but I couldn't stop crying. I just but I couldn't stop crying. I just boohooed. boohooed. boohooed. Much to the credit of those men. That Much to the credit of those men. That Much to the credit of those men. That was a wakeup call. And they they said, was a wakeup call. And they they said, was a wakeup call. And they they said, "Wait a second. Okay, what what and to "Wait a second. Okay, what what and to "Wait a second. Okay, what what and to this day I cannot explain their this day I cannot explain their this day I cannot explain their decision, but to this day I love those decision, but to this day I love those decision, but to this day I love those men." They retreated, recanted that men." They retreated, recanted that men." They retreated, recanted that choice and said, "Okay, you're right, choice and said, "Okay, you're right, choice and said, "Okay, you're right, Max." And they and I I took all the Max." And they and I I took all the Max." And they and I I took all the money with me. But that was really the money with me. But that was really the money with me. But that was really the first time I was I felt that deep first time I was I felt that deep first time I was I felt that deep disappointment. Like I thought I trusted disappointment. Like I thought I trusted disappointment. Like I thought I trusted these guys and they let me down. Now these guys and they let me down. Now these guys and they let me down. Now multiply that many times over when it multiply that many times over when it multiply that many times over when it comes to sexual infidelity comes to sexual infidelity comes to sexual infidelity and it and and months or years of and it and and months or years of and it and and months or years of impropriy on the part of a a pastor. and impropriy on the part of a a pastor. and impropriy on the part of a a pastor. and and you begin to see why it hurts us so

and you begin to see why it hurts us so and you begin to see why it hurts us so much because we hold these men and women much because we hold these men and women much because we hold these men and women in such a place of high regard uh that in such a place of high regard uh that in such a place of high regard uh that when they violate that trust, it's more when they violate that trust, it's more when they violate that trust, it's more than just our locker room buddy doing than just our locker room buddy doing than just our locker room buddy doing it, right? it, right? it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. These are the people we aspire to be These are the people we aspire to be These are the people we aspire to be like and and we in helping one another like and and we in helping one another like and and we in helping one another and helping people get through this. Uh and helping people get through this. Uh and helping people get through this. Uh I think it's important for us to I think it's important for us to I think it's important for us to acknowledge this is a this is a real acknowledge this is a this is a real acknowledge this is a this is a real challenge and it's enough to uh cause challenge and it's enough to uh cause challenge and it's enough to uh cause people to leave church and never come people to leave church and never come people to leave church and never come back. And so in a role as a you know an back. And so in a role as a you know an back. And so in a role as a you know an interim or somebody who's coming in or interim or somebody who's coming in or interim or somebody who's coming in or trying to help, we have to say this is trying to help, we have to say this is trying to help, we have to say this is horrible. I get it. What they did is not horrible. I get it. What they did is not horrible. I get it. What they did is not acceptable. It's inexcusable. We cannot acceptable. It's inexcusable. We cannot acceptable. It's inexcusable. We cannot gloss it over. Um it's heartbreaking. gloss it over. Um it's heartbreaking. gloss it over. Um it's heartbreaking. it's serious and and acknowledging that it's serious and and acknowledging that it's serious and and acknowledging that is a part of the healing process. Um is a part of the healing process. Um is a part of the healing process. Um yeah, and I think naming it I mean the yeah, and I think naming it I mean the yeah, and I think naming it I mean the church does want to we we're always church does want to we we're always church does want to we we're always people of extremes, right? We're either people of extremes, right? We're either people of extremes, right? We're either so fixated on the hurt, the wound, the so fixated on the hurt, the wound, the so fixated on the hurt, the wound, the wrong that we just live there and don't wrong that we just live there and don't wrong that we just live there and don't move on or we sweep it under the rug and move on or we sweep it under the rug and move on or we sweep it under the rug and we move on the next Sunday as though it we move on the next Sunday as though it we move on the next Sunday as though it never happened. And I think naming never happened. And I think naming never happened. And I think naming the truth, standing in the awkward the truth, standing in the awkward the truth, standing in the awkward that awkward space of no, this actually that awkward space of no, this actually that awkward space of no, this actually happened and this is what's going on and happened and this is what's going on and happened and this is what's going on and yes, this is real and yes, it's wrong is yes, this is real and yes, it's wrong is yes, this is real and yes, it's wrong is really important. But it's interesting,

really important. But it's interesting, really important. But it's interesting, Max, because you asked like, "Who's the Max, because you asked like, "Who's the Max, because you asked like, "Who's the first person to disappoint you?" And I first person to disappoint you?" And I first person to disappoint you?" And I went to a name from my childhood that went to a name from my childhood that went to a name from my childhood that nobody would know and it's not nobody would know and it's not nobody would know and it's not important. But what came out over he was important. But what came out over he was important. But what came out over he was a hero of mine, very influential a hero of mine, very influential a hero of mine, very influential in my upbringing and even in my training in my upbringing and even in my training in my upbringing and even in my training in my 20s and probably turned out to be in my 20s and probably turned out to be in my 20s and probably turned out to be a narcissist. a narcissist. a narcissist. Mhm. and ended up hurting some people Mhm. and ended up hurting some people Mhm. and ended up hurting some people around him and you know things didn't go around him and you know things didn't go around him and you know things didn't go particularly well and we've lost touch particularly well and we've lost touch particularly well and we've lost touch over the years so it's not a big deal over the years so it's not a big deal over the years so it's not a big deal but it's really weird because it's like but it's really weird because it's like but it's really weird because it's like well why would God allow someone who's well why would God allow someone who's well why would God allow someone who's probably clinically a narcissist to be probably clinically a narcissist to be probably clinically a narcissist to be so influential in a young life and he he so influential in a young life and he he so influential in a young life and he he never abused me he never hurt me he never abused me he never hurt me he never abused me he never hurt me he never no there was none of that but never no there was none of that but never no there was none of that but you know that kind of that kind of drive you know that kind of that kind of drive you know that kind of that kind of drive that he showed and success that he that he showed and success that he that he showed and success that he showed actually formed me in a way that showed actually formed me in a way that showed actually formed me in a way that is visible visible to this day. Like the is visible visible to this day. Like the is visible visible to this day. Like the fact that we're in this conversation, fact that we're in this conversation, fact that we're in this conversation, probably if you're going to look at all probably if you're going to look at all probably if you're going to look at all the tendrils and the trails over, you the tendrils and the trails over, you the tendrils and the trails over, you know, my six decades, a couple of them know, my six decades, a couple of them know, my six decades, a couple of them go back to that experience. And it led go back to that experience. And it led go back to that experience. And it led me, as you were asking the question of me, as you were asking the question of me, as you were asking the question of Romans 8, that, and I'm not saying God Romans 8, that, and I'm not saying God Romans 8, that, and I'm not saying God use abuse. I'm not saying that. Please use abuse. I'm not saying that. Please use abuse. I'm not saying that. Please don't hear that. But, you know, there's don't hear that. But, you know, there's don't hear that. But, you know, there's an all things doctrine. You know, all an all things doctrine. You know, all an all things doctrine. You know, all things work together. And definitely, things work together. And definitely, things work together. And definitely, you know, let's get rid of the abuse.

you know, let's get rid of the abuse. you know, let's get rid of the abuse. Let's let's let's let's tell those Let's let's let's let's tell those Let's let's let's let's tell those stories. Let's get rid of that. But stories. Let's get rid of that. But stories. Let's get rid of that. But there is that sense, you know, when you there is that sense, you know, when you there is that sense, you know, when you look at somebody's legacy, look at somebody's legacy, look at somebody's legacy, it's like, okay, so it was twisted, but it's like, okay, so it was twisted, but it's like, okay, so it was twisted, but there were there, you know, people there were there, you know, people there were there, you know, people actually got saved. If you look at, we actually got saved. If you look at, we actually got saved. If you look at, we talked about the situation at Willow talked about the situation at Willow talked about the situation at Willow Creek here on the podcast and other Creek here on the podcast and other Creek here on the podcast and other situations like that, and we could go on situations like that, and we could go on situations like that, and we could go on and on and on, but no, people are going and on and on, but no, people are going and on and on, but no, people are going to be in heaven because of the ministry to be in heaven because of the ministry to be in heaven because of the ministry that happened. and that happened. and that happened. and it was wrong and it was rotten in places it was wrong and it was rotten in places it was wrong and it was rotten in places and it was abusive and there's sort of and it was abusive and there's sort of and it was abusive and there's sort of that tension but yeah I don't know you that tension but yeah I don't know you that tension but yeah I don't know you have anything else on that we're again I have anything else on that we're again I have anything else on that we're again I said there's no answer to this question said there's no answer to this question said there's no answer to this question this is the question we have to ask this is the question we have to ask this is the question we have to ask right as leaders right as leaders right as leaders what we can say and I as as we talk what we can say and I as as we talk what we can say and I as as we talk about people who influenced us and then about people who influenced us and then about people who influenced us and then later disappoint us we can separate the later disappoint us we can separate the later disappoint us we can separate the truth truth truth from the person, right? The Yes. What from the person, right? The Yes. What from the person, right? The Yes. What what the truth is u God forgives what the truth is u God forgives what the truth is u God forgives sinners. I heard that from somebody and sinners. I heard that from somebody and sinners. I heard that from somebody and then later to found out he did that.

then later to found out he did that. then later to found out he did that. Well, I'm going to acknowledge that he Well, I'm going to acknowledge that he Well, I'm going to acknowledge that he did that, but I'm going to hold on to did that, but I'm going to hold on to did that, but I'm going to hold on to that truth he taught me that God that truth he taught me that God that truth he taught me that God forgives sinners. So, we we latch on to forgives sinners. So, we we latch on to forgives sinners. So, we we latch on to that truth. We don't give that up. But that truth. We don't give that up. But that truth. We don't give that up. But we acknowledge that uh you know we we we acknowledge that uh you know we we we acknowledge that uh you know we we think about really some scholarly think about really some scholarly think about really some scholarly apologetics, some people who have apologetics, some people who have apologetics, some people who have trained us and equipped us in ways that trained us and equipped us in ways that trained us and equipped us in ways that we never would have thought of and then we never would have thought of and then we never would have thought of and then only to find out that they had been only to find out that they had been only to find out that they had been leading a lifestyle uh that was, you leading a lifestyle uh that was, you leading a lifestyle uh that was, you know, undercover or or hidden. It know, undercover or or hidden. It know, undercover or or hidden. It doesn't discount the facts that they doesn't discount the facts that they doesn't discount the facts that they taught us, the truth that they taught taught us, the truth that they taught taught us, the truth that they taught us. And so we can maybe maybe we can be us. And so we can maybe maybe we can be us. And so we can maybe maybe we can be grateful for the knowledge, separate grateful for the knowledge, separate grateful for the knowledge, separate that knowledge and acknowledge that even that knowledge and acknowledge that even that knowledge and acknowledge that even a person of in proper character can a person of in proper character can a person of in proper character can communicate uh truth uh that can help communicate uh truth uh that can help communicate uh truth uh that can help us. Um us. Um us. Um how did you phrase that? I wrote it how did you phrase that? I wrote it how did you phrase that? I wrote it down. I want to make sure I got it down. I want to make sure I got it down. I want to make sure I got it right. Did you say separating the truth right. Did you say separating the truth right. Did you say separating the truth from the sinner? from the sinner? from the sinner? Is that how I said it?

Is that how I said it? Is that how I said it? I don't know. We'll rewind the tape. I don't know. We'll rewind the tape. I don't know. We'll rewind the tape. It was good. It was clarify. I knew I It was good. It was clarify. I knew I It was good. It was clarify. I knew I had to ask you the question and I think had to ask you the question and I think had to ask you the question and I think you're right. That's the ide, you know, you're right. That's the ide, you know, you're right. That's the ide, you know, the message from the messenger. the message from the messenger. the message from the messenger. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of thing I think is the idea. But Kind of thing I think is the idea. But Kind of thing I think is the idea. But you're right. When somebody, no matter you're right. When somebody, no matter you're right. When somebody, no matter who they are, when they who they are, when they who they are, when they when they share truth, when they share truth, when they share truth, it resonates. it resonates. it resonates. It does. It does. It does. It does. It does. It does. And if all truth is from God, And if all truth is from God, And if all truth is from God, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. we can hold that. We can hold that we can hold that. We can hold that we can hold that. We can hold that truth. truth. truth. There were some wonderful teachings of There were some wonderful teachings of There were some wonderful teachings of truth from the gateway pulpit. truth from the gateway pulpit. truth from the gateway pulpit. No doubt about that. wonderful No doubt about that. wonderful No doubt about that. wonderful teachings, liberating, taught me to, you teachings, liberating, taught me to, you teachings, liberating, taught me to, you know, view money a different way, uh, know, view money a different way, uh, know, view money a different way, uh, view God's pro, uh, provision a view God's pro, uh, provision a view God's pro, uh, provision a different way. So, I can hold on to that different way. So, I can hold on to that different way. So, I can hold on to that and, uh, and and then, like my wife and, uh, and and then, like my wife and, uh, and and then, like my wife said, remind them, Max, that Jesus is said, remind them, Max, that Jesus is said, remind them, Max, that Jesus is the shepherd of the church and that he's the shepherd of the church and that he's the shepherd of the church and that he's the one who ultimately responsible for the one who ultimately responsible for the one who ultimately responsible for this. this. this. The other unanswerable question I want The other unanswerable question I want The other unanswerable question I want to ask you um and I'm I'm happy to do a to ask you um and I'm I'm happy to do a to ask you um and I'm I'm happy to do a short conversation about this is sort of short conversation about this is sort of short conversation about this is sort of that that nebulous line. There's a line that that nebulous line. There's a line that that nebulous line. There's a line about the things that people like you about the things that people like you about the things that people like you and I do that don't get us disqualified and I do that don't get us disqualified and I do that don't get us disqualified from ministry.

from ministry. from ministry. But there's a very thin line where all But there's a very thin line where all But there's a very thin line where all of a sudden it's like, "Yep, I'm out. I of a sudden it's like, "Yep, I'm out. I of a sudden it's like, "Yep, I'm out. I have to resign." And and the lines the have to resign." And and the lines the have to resign." And and the lines the line's gray. It's in the middle line's gray. It's in the middle line's gray. It's in the middle somewhere. And sometimes somewhere. And sometimes somewhere. And sometimes it takes you out and sometimes it it takes you out and sometimes it it takes you out and sometimes it doesn't. You know, you've talked doesn't. You know, you've talked doesn't. You know, you've talked publicly about a struggle with alcohol publicly about a struggle with alcohol publicly about a struggle with alcohol in your life. I know of a pastor who uh in your life. I know of a pastor who uh in your life. I know of a pastor who uh had a drink and had to resign, you know, had a drink and had to resign, you know, had a drink and had to resign, you know, so that didn't cost you your ministry. so that didn't cost you your ministry. so that didn't cost you your ministry. Mine I've had character challenges at Mine I've had character challenges at Mine I've had character challenges at times where, you know, with my times where, you know, with my times where, you know, with my personality, personality, personality, haven't always been the easiest guy to haven't always been the easiest guy to haven't always been the easiest guy to work with. probably work with. probably work with. probably should have had some more consequences should have had some more consequences should have had some more consequences in that area. We're able to nip it, not in that area. We're able to nip it, not in that area. We're able to nip it, not maybe in the bud, but at least when it maybe in the bud, but at least when it maybe in the bud, but at least when it wasn't fully grown. wasn't fully grown. wasn't fully grown. And you know, so it's one of those And you know, so it's one of those And you know, so it's one of those things that there is a line and none of things that there is a line and none of things that there is a line and none of us comes to this with clean hands. Like us comes to this with clean hands. Like us comes to this with clean hands. Like I don't, you've admitted you don't, but I don't, you've admitted you don't, but I don't, you've admitted you don't, but any any thoughts on where that line is any any thoughts on where that line is any any thoughts on where that line is and how you keep yourself and how you keep yourself and how you keep yourself um from crossing that line?

um from crossing that line? um from crossing that line? Yeah, two thoughts. One is that the um Yeah, two thoughts. One is that the um Yeah, two thoughts. One is that the um support system around a particular support system around a particular support system around a particular pastor in many cases it would be elders pastor in many cases it would be elders pastor in many cases it would be elders or other uh leaders. or other uh leaders. or other uh leaders. Yeah. One responsibility that they or we Yeah. One responsibility that they or we Yeah. One responsibility that they or we have is to keep an eye on the have is to keep an eye on the have is to keep an eye on the credibility of that leader. And if that credibility of that leader. And if that credibility of that leader. And if that activity has caused the credibility activity has caused the credibility activity has caused the credibility to uh be so diminished it can never be to uh be so diminished it can never be to uh be so diminished it can never be restored, then that line has been restored, then that line has been restored, then that line has been crossed. Credibility is credibility is crossed. Credibility is credibility is crossed. Credibility is credibility is everything, Carrie, isn't it? I if if I everything, Carrie, isn't it? I if if I everything, Carrie, isn't it? I if if I stand up in front of our church like I'm stand up in front of our church like I'm stand up in front of our church like I'm going to do this weekend and they're going to do this weekend and they're going to do this weekend and they're suspecting that Leo is up to something, suspecting that Leo is up to something, suspecting that Leo is up to something, he's leading a double life or he never he's leading a double life or he never he's leading a double life or he never came clean about this or that. Uh I've came clean about this or that. Uh I've came clean about this or that. Uh I've I've lost all influence. I've lost I've lost all influence. I've lost I've lost all influence. I've lost credibility is 90% of the effectiveness credibility is 90% of the effectiveness credibility is 90% of the effectiveness of a pastor. And so if I if I lose that of a pastor. And so if I if I lose that of a pastor. And so if I if I lose that credibility, then I've I've really credibility, then I've I've really credibility, then I've I've really forfeited the privilege of speaking into forfeited the privilege of speaking into forfeited the privilege of speaking into that person's life. Now, the person who that person's life. Now, the person who that person's life. Now, the person who uh who's whose credibility has lost will uh who's whose credibility has lost will uh who's whose credibility has lost will probably be the last one to acknowledge probably be the last one to acknowledge probably be the last one to acknowledge or even recognize they've lost or even recognize they've lost or even recognize they've lost credibility. Hence the elders, hence the credibility. Hence the elders, hence the credibility. Hence the elders, hence the accountability. They've got to step in accountability. They've got to step in accountability. They've got to step in and say, "We don't think people will and say, "We don't think people will and say, "We don't think people will bring their kids to church anymore bring their kids to church anymore bring their kids to church anymore knowing this about you. We don't think

knowing this about you. We don't think knowing this about you. We don't think uh the staff will follow you knowing uh the staff will follow you knowing uh the staff will follow you knowing these decisions that you've made and we these decisions that you've made and we these decisions that you've made and we have to make a very hard decision right have to make a very hard decision right have to make a very hard decision right now." now." now." So, I I I think credibility is really So, I I I think credibility is really So, I I I think credibility is really key. Carrie, what do you think? key. Carrie, what do you think? key. Carrie, what do you think? No, you know, that's very I' think about No, you know, that's very I' think about No, you know, that's very I' think about these things a lot and I've thought these things a lot and I've thought these things a lot and I've thought about them for years. you've you've about them for years. you've you've about them for years. you've you've offered some really clarifying thoughts. offered some really clarifying thoughts. offered some really clarifying thoughts. And of course you would because I've And of course you would because I've And of course you would because I've done two billion podcast episodes. done two billion podcast episodes. done two billion podcast episodes. You've written two billion books. Of You've written two billion books. Of You've written two billion books. Of course you think about these things. Um, course you think about these things. Um, course you think about these things. Um, no, that's really good. If if you don't no, that's really good. If if you don't no, that's really good. If if you don't mind a bit of a case study because I mind a bit of a case study because I mind a bit of a case study because I know you have written about it and know you have written about it and know you have written about it and talked about it, but let's talk about talked about it, but let's talk about talked about it, but let's talk about alcohol. What what caused what happened alcohol. What what caused what happened alcohol. What what caused what happened in that season and then what helped you in that season and then what helped you in that season and then what helped you sort of see it was a problem? sort of see it was a problem? sort of see it was a problem? Yeah. confess it and retain your Yeah. confess it and retain your Yeah. confess it and retain your credibility to the point where you could credibility to the point where you could credibility to the point where you could lead as opposed to saying, "Guys, I gota lead as opposed to saying, "Guys, I gota lead as opposed to saying, "Guys, I gota I got to tap out." I got to tap out." I got to tap out." Yeah. Um I come from a family of Yeah. Um I come from a family of Yeah. Um I come from a family of alcoholics. Um my dad is one of nine alcoholics. Um my dad is one of nine alcoholics. Um my dad is one of nine kids and several of his siblings lives kids and several of his siblings lives kids and several of his siblings lives were just destroyed by alcohol.

were just destroyed by alcohol. were just destroyed by alcohol. Uh my dad uh went to the other extreme Uh my dad uh went to the other extreme Uh my dad uh went to the other extreme and said there will be no alcohol in my and said there will be no alcohol in my and said there will be no alcohol in my house. Uh my brother and I rebelled house. Uh my brother and I rebelled house. Uh my brother and I rebelled against that and uh by the time I was 20 against that and uh by the time I was 20 against that and uh by the time I was 20 I was on a firstname basis with uh Adolf I was on a firstname basis with uh Adolf I was on a firstname basis with uh Adolf Kors and the Bush family. Uh I was a I Kors and the Bush family. Uh I was a I Kors and the Bush family. Uh I was a I was a bum. I really was. I was a jerk. I was a bum. I really was. I was a jerk. I was a bum. I really was. I was a jerk. I was a misogynist. But most of all, I was was a misogynist. But most of all, I was was a misogynist. But most of all, I was a drunk. And so that's my story. I come a drunk. And so that's my story. I come a drunk. And so that's my story. I come out of a family of alcoholism. I I do I out of a family of alcoholism. I I do I out of a family of alcoholism. I I do I think that my DNA think that my DNA think that my DNA uh is set up for some type of uh am I uh is set up for some type of uh am I uh is set up for some type of uh am I genetically predisposed to alcohol? I genetically predisposed to alcohol? I genetically predisposed to alcohol? I just don't know. But I do recall very just don't know. But I do recall very just don't know. But I do recall very well the sensation that uh I felt when I well the sensation that uh I felt when I well the sensation that uh I felt when I had my first beer. And so I lived with had my first beer. And so I lived with had my first beer. And so I lived with that. And then at the age of 20 uh a that. And then at the age of 20 uh a that. And then at the age of 20 uh a pastor convinced me that Jesus could pastor convinced me that Jesus could pastor convinced me that Jesus could forgive a jerk like me. And so that was forgive a jerk like me. And so that was forgive a jerk like me. And so that was the turnaround for me. In fact, I've the turnaround for me. In fact, I've the turnaround for me. In fact, I've been showing off my new tattoo. I don't been showing off my new tattoo. I don't been showing off my new tattoo. I don't know if I've told you about this.

know if I've told you about this. know if I've told you about this. Oh, for YouTubers, what's it say? Oh, for YouTubers, what's it say? Oh, for YouTubers, what's it say? It says tatelsty because uh tatelisty is It says tatelsty because uh tatelisty is It says tatelsty because uh tatelisty is the word Jesus said uh on the cross when the word Jesus said uh on the cross when the word Jesus said uh on the cross when he said it is finished. It is paid. he said it is finished. It is paid. he said it is finished. It is paid. And that's that was the message that got And that's that was the message that got And that's that was the message that got through to me uh when I was 20 years through to me uh when I was 20 years through to me uh when I was 20 years old. Jesus paid for your sins. You you old. Jesus paid for your sins. You you old. Jesus paid for your sins. You you did sin, but Jesus paid for it. And so did sin, but Jesus paid for it. And so did sin, but Jesus paid for it. And so is that truth and grace coming together. is that truth and grace coming together. is that truth and grace coming together. So on the 50th anniversary of that So on the 50th anniversary of that So on the 50th anniversary of that conversion, I went down and got a conversion, I went down and got a conversion, I went down and got a That's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. So I don't want to, you know, go a Yeah. So I don't want to, you know, go a Yeah. So I don't want to, you know, go a long answer on your question, but I long answer on your question, but I long answer on your question, but I think that context is important because think that context is important because think that context is important because u after I had been at our church um is u after I had been at our church um is u after I had been at our church um is 19 19 19 I came here in 1988. So in about 2002 I came here in 1988. So in about 2002 I came here in 1988. So in about 2002 thou 2003 thou 2003 thou 2003 u I caught myself u I caught myself u I caught myself um using beer at the end of the day. The um using beer at the end of the day. The um using beer at the end of the day. The phrase is to take the edge off. Kind of phrase is to take the edge off. Kind of phrase is to take the edge off. Kind of take the edge off. I' I've used that take the edge off. I' I've used that take the edge off. I' I've used that phrase many times. I'm not anti I'm not phrase many times. I'm not anti I'm not phrase many times. I'm not anti I'm not a tea totler, but I I was beginning to a tea totler, but I I was beginning to a tea totler, but I I was beginning to use beer in a way to treat stress. And I use beer in a way to treat stress. And I use beer in a way to treat stress. And I think that was my mistake. And I caught think that was my mistake. And I caught think that was my mistake. And I caught myself uh going to a convenience store myself uh going to a convenience store myself uh going to a convenience store across town so no one would see me and across town so no one would see me and across town so no one would see me and buying a beer and sitting out in my car buying a beer and sitting out in my car buying a beer and sitting out in my car uh to take the edge off. And that's when uh to take the edge off. And that's when uh to take the edge off. And that's when I felt convicted by the spirit. What are I felt convicted by the spirit. What are I felt convicted by the spirit. What are you doing? What are you doing? are you

you doing? What are you doing? are you you doing? What are you doing? are you going to go down that path again? I going to go down that path again? I going to go down that path again? I hadn't had any struggle with alcohol hadn't had any struggle with alcohol hadn't had any struggle with alcohol 20 in what 25 years. I was probably 50 20 in what 25 years. I was probably 50 20 in what 25 years. I was probably 50 at the time, 30 years. And so, um, I had at the time, 30 years. And so, um, I had at the time, 30 years. And so, um, I had to deal with that. And so, I've made a to deal with that. And so, I've made a to deal with that. And so, I've made a lot of bad mistakes. I think the good lot of bad mistakes. I think the good lot of bad mistakes. I think the good choice I made that particular time was choice I made that particular time was choice I made that particular time was to call my elders and to have a meeting to call my elders and to have a meeting to call my elders and to have a meeting with them and come clean. And I said, with them and come clean. And I said, with them and come clean. And I said, I've been doing this and I'm very sorry. I've been doing this and I'm very sorry. I've been doing this and I'm very sorry. uh you tell me what you want me to do. uh you tell me what you want me to do. uh you tell me what you want me to do. And we had an elder at the time who's And we had an elder at the time who's And we had an elder at the time who's since gone to heaven, uh Jim Pototts, since gone to heaven, uh Jim Pototts, since gone to heaven, uh Jim Pototts, and he came over and he knelt beside me. and he came over and he knelt beside me. and he came over and he knelt beside me. He put his hand on my knees and he began He put his hand on my knees and he began He put his hand on my knees and he began to pray for me and he spoke words of to pray for me and he spoke words of to pray for me and he spoke words of grace over my life. And so, uh they grace over my life. And so, uh they grace over my life. And so, uh they forgave me. I came clean with them. But forgave me. I came clean with them. But forgave me. I came clean with them. But then I felt like I needed to come clean then I felt like I needed to come clean then I felt like I needed to come clean with the church. and in a Wednesday with the church. and in a Wednesday with the church. and in a Wednesday night prayer service. Uh we used to have night prayer service. Uh we used to have night prayer service. Uh we used to have really large Wednesday night prayer really large Wednesday night prayer really large Wednesday night prayer services before we went the small group services before we went the small group services before we went the small group route. Uh we had one then and and I used route. Uh we had one then and and I used route. Uh we had one then and and I used that Wednesday night prayer service to that Wednesday night prayer service to that Wednesday night prayer service to share that story with the church. Uh and share that story with the church. Uh and share that story with the church. Uh and I needed to do that for my own benefit.

I needed to do that for my own benefit. I needed to do that for my own benefit. Now I did not know that but what I was Now I did not know that but what I was Now I did not know that but what I was doing was protecting my own credibility. doing was protecting my own credibility. doing was protecting my own credibility. I I wasn't your motive, right? I I wasn't your motive, right? I I wasn't your motive, right? That wasn't my motive. But um had That wasn't my motive. But um had That wasn't my motive. But um had somebody uh had somebody seen me in a somebody uh had somebody seen me in a somebody uh had somebody seen me in a parking lot or had somebody heard that parking lot or had somebody heard that parking lot or had somebody heard that someone else had seen me? Now they could someone else had seen me? Now they could someone else had seen me? Now they could say, "Yeah, Leo told us about this. say, "Yeah, Leo told us about this. say, "Yeah, Leo told us about this. Yeah, he's working on it. He's working Yeah, he's working on it. He's working Yeah, he's working on it. He's working on it." So what was intended for evil on it." So what was intended for evil on it." So what was intended for evil became good. You know, it became good in became good. You know, it became good in became good. You know, it became good in my case. And and and and the credibility my case. And and and and the credibility my case. And and and and the credibility in that story um was protected. And you in that story um was protected. And you in that story um was protected. And you I'm grateful to say I haven't had those I'm grateful to say I haven't had those I'm grateful to say I haven't had those struggles since, but I'd say that struggles since, but I'd say that struggles since, but I'd say that carefully because I still live with carefully because I still live with carefully because I still live with stress and I need to be very careful. stress and I need to be very careful. stress and I need to be very careful. Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Subsplash. You ever heard this? Like Subsplash. You ever heard this? Like Subsplash. You ever heard this? Like scan this fuzzy QR code from far away or scan this fuzzy QR code from far away or scan this fuzzy QR code from far away or type in this really long URL or fill out type in this really long URL or fill out type in this really long URL or fill out a paper card in the lobby, talk to a a paper card in the lobby, talk to a a paper card in the lobby, talk to a staff member that's way over there. Hey, staff member that's way over there. Hey, staff member that's way over there. Hey, if that sounds familiar, guess what? if that sounds familiar, guess what? if that sounds familiar, guess what? Maybe your church is still using clunky Maybe your church is still using clunky Maybe your church is still using clunky forms or tech to connect with people.

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your insur. Report yourself to the law your insur. Report yourself to the law society, to the bar, and just say, "Hey, society, to the bar, and just say, "Hey, society, to the bar, and just say, "Hey, I totally did not do a good job on this I totally did not do a good job on this I totally did not do a good job on this file. Here's what happened. Here's the file. Here's what happened. Here's the file. Here's what happened. Here's the documentation. Would you like to documentation. Would you like to documentation. Would you like to investigate?" So, two things. Number investigate?" So, two things. Number investigate?" So, two things. Number one, nine times out of 10, it's exactly one, nine times out of 10, it's exactly one, nine times out of 10, it's exactly what happened. You caught yourself in a what happened. You caught yourself in a what happened. You caught yourself in a moment. You reported yourself. you you moment. You reported yourself. you you moment. You reported yourself. you you if if the line toward disqualification if if the line toward disqualification if if the line toward disqualification is here, you stopped here and you're is here, you stopped here and you're is here, you stopped here and you're like, "All right, this is a bad episode, like, "All right, this is a bad episode, like, "All right, this is a bad episode, away you go." By the way, that was also away you go." By the way, that was also away you go." By the way, that was also in Eugene Peterson's auto uh biography in Eugene Peterson's auto uh biography in Eugene Peterson's auto uh biography that was written, not the autobiography, that was written, not the autobiography, that was written, not the autobiography, but he would use I think it was whiskey but he would use I think it was whiskey but he would use I think it was whiskey to take the edge off at night and to take the edge off at night and to take the edge off at night and something he always regretted. Now, God something he always regretted. Now, God something he always regretted. Now, God used Eugene powerfully and it wasn't used Eugene powerfully and it wasn't used Eugene powerfully and it wasn't like an alcoholic thing or anything, but like an alcoholic thing or anything, but like an alcoholic thing or anything, but um you know, we're all we all come to um you know, we're all we all come to um you know, we're all we all come to this with stained hands, but I think this with stained hands, but I think this with stained hands, but I think that idea of spotting the line early, that idea of spotting the line early, that idea of spotting the line early, self-reporting, self-reporting, self-reporting, going to the board, and then you did going to the board, and then you did going to the board, and then you did something that Gordon McDonald had something that Gordon McDonald had something that Gordon McDonald had talked about on this podcast and in his talked about on this podcast and in his talked about on this podcast and in his books, you put yourself at the mercy of books, you put yourself at the mercy of books, you put yourself at the mercy of the elders. You didn't say, "So, I'm the elders. You didn't say, "So, I'm the elders. You didn't say, "So, I'm back this Sunday, by the way, starting a back this Sunday, by the way, starting a back this Sunday, by the way, starting a new series. Hope that's okay." You were new series. Hope that's okay." You were new series. Hope that's okay." You were like, "What do you think I need to do?"

like, "What do you think I need to do?" like, "What do you think I need to do?" And I don't see that posture as much in And I don't see that posture as much in And I don't see that posture as much in this generation of church leaders as I this generation of church leaders as I this generation of church leaders as I do in our generation or previous do in our generation or previous do in our generation or previous generation of church leaders. Max, maybe generation of church leaders. Max, maybe generation of church leaders. Max, maybe we need more of that. we need more of that. we need more of that. Well, it's essential, isn't it? I'm Well, it's essential, isn't it? I'm Well, it's essential, isn't it? I'm really not proud of that, really not proud of that, really not proud of that, but it it uh the fact that I admitted it but it it uh the fact that I admitted it but it it uh the fact that I admitted it is so liberating. Um the fact that my is so liberating. Um the fact that my is so liberating. Um the fact that my daughters, they know I did that. Uh my daughters, they know I did that. Uh my daughters, they know I did that. Uh my sons-in-law, they know about it. My sons-in-law, they know about it. My sons-in-law, they know about it. My grandchildren are too young, but someday grandchildren are too young, but someday grandchildren are too young, but someday they'll read about it. And that's fine. they'll read about it. And that's fine. they'll read about it. And that's fine. You know, it really is. You know, it really is. You know, it really is. So, so what what is liberating about So, so what what is liberating about So, so what what is liberating about that? that? that? Liberating is that I don't have to hide Liberating is that I don't have to hide Liberating is that I don't have to hide it. You know, I don't have to pretend it. You know, I don't have to pretend it. You know, I don't have to pretend I'm someone that I'm not. Uh one of the I'm someone that I'm not. Uh one of the I'm someone that I'm not. Uh one of the challenges of of being a a leader or a challenges of of being a a leader or a challenges of of being a a leader or a pastor, I think, is that people really pastor, I think, is that people really pastor, I think, is that people really believe you are better than they are. Uh believe you are better than they are. Uh believe you are better than they are. Uh they they really do. I mean, think about they they really do. I mean, think about they they really do. I mean, think about it. Everything about it says uh I'm up it. Everything about it says uh I'm up it. Everything about it says uh I'm up here on a pedestal, that word pedestal, here on a pedestal, that word pedestal, here on a pedestal, that word pedestal, or I'm behind a pullpit or I'm on a or I'm behind a pullpit or I'm on a or I'm behind a pullpit or I'm on a platform or the title uh I'm a reverend platform or the title uh I'm a reverend platform or the title uh I'm a reverend or I'm a pastor or I'm a bishop. you we or I'm a pastor or I'm a bishop. you we or I'm a pastor or I'm a bishop. you we have this language uh and and it might have this language uh and and it might have this language uh and and it might be even be a wardrobe that a that a be even be a wardrobe that a that a be even be a wardrobe that a that a church everything about it elevates church everything about it elevates church everything about it elevates uh the the pastor over the church and I uh the the pastor over the church and I uh the the pastor over the church and I think we have to fight against that uh think we have to fight against that uh think we have to fight against that uh in in every way possible less come in in every way possible less come in in every way possible less come across that I I think we u number one uh

across that I I think we u number one uh across that I I think we u number one uh acknowledge where we came from you know acknowledge where we came from you know acknowledge where we came from you know we remember the rock from which we were we remember the rock from which we were we remember the rock from which we were heuned uh we we acknowledge that we're heuned uh we we acknowledge that we're heuned uh we we acknowledge that we're sinners saved by grace. That the sinners saved by grace. That the sinners saved by grace. That the greatest thing we can say about greatest thing we can say about greatest thing we can say about ourselves is that we're sinners saved by ourselves is that we're sinners saved by ourselves is that we're sinners saved by grace. And secondly, uh you know, Jesus grace. And secondly, uh you know, Jesus grace. And secondly, uh you know, Jesus said if you're invited to a feast, take said if you're invited to a feast, take said if you're invited to a feast, take the uh lowest seat. Is that how he said the uh lowest seat. Is that how he said the uh lowest seat. Is that how he said it? Take the take the less seat it? Take the take the less seat it? Take the take the less seat because you don't want to be up front because you don't want to be up front because you don't want to be up front and then be told to go down. It's always and then be told to go down. It's always and then be told to go down. It's always be better to go down, come back up. And be better to go down, come back up. And be better to go down, come back up. And I think that's such a kind of a funny I think that's such a kind of a funny I think that's such a kind of a funny thing for our master to say, but I think thing for our master to say, but I think thing for our master to say, but I think he's saying just don't make a big deal he's saying just don't make a big deal he's saying just don't make a big deal out of yourself, right? If you can take out of yourself, right? If you can take out of yourself, right? If you can take the lower seat, take it. And then you the lower seat, take it. And then you the lower seat, take it. And then you don't have to worry about trying to show don't have to worry about trying to show don't have to worry about trying to show off. And then I think pursue humility. off. And then I think pursue humility. off. And then I think pursue humility. You know, our Lord hates arrogance. He You know, our Lord hates arrogance. He You know, our Lord hates arrogance. He really does. He just hates it. He hates really does. He just hates it. He hates really does. He just hates it. He hates it because what it does to us. But if we it because what it does to us. But if we it because what it does to us. But if we can pursue humility, and I know we've can pursue humility, and I know we've can pursue humility, and I know we've all heard the line, but let's repeat it all heard the line, but let's repeat it all heard the line, but let's repeat it again. Humility is not thinking less of again. Humility is not thinking less of again. Humility is not thinking less of yourself but just thinking about yourself but just thinking about yourself but just thinking about yourself less. Not being so focused on yourself less. Not being so focused on yourself less. Not being so focused on yourself. Don't thinking that the world yourself. Don't thinking that the world yourself. Don't thinking that the world revolves around you. You know, pursue revolves around you. You know, pursue revolves around you. You know, pursue that. The Lord loves humility. He loves that. The Lord loves humility. He loves that. The Lord loves humility. He loves the humble spirit. Our master who was the humble spirit. Our master who was the humble spirit. Our master who was who was uh a part of time before time who was uh a part of time before time who was uh a part of time before time began. Who created a universe for crying began. Who created a universe for crying began. Who created a universe for crying out loud. Who holds sway over all out loud. Who holds sway over all out loud. Who holds sway over all things. He came not to be served but to things. He came not to be served but to things. He came not to be served but to serve serve serve and to give his life for as a ransom for

and to give his life for as a ransom for and to give his life for as a ransom for many. So if he did that's certainly the many. So if he did that's certainly the many. So if he did that's certainly the posture I have to take. posture I have to take. posture I have to take. So we're going to shift gears in a So we're going to shift gears in a So we're going to shift gears in a minute but you know Max you've handed minute but you know Max you've handed minute but you know Max you've handed off um ministry at Oakills to the next off um ministry at Oakills to the next off um ministry at Oakills to the next generation. There's so many of those generation. There's so many of those generation. There's so many of those nextgen pastors, they're in their 20s, nextgen pastors, they're in their 20s, nextgen pastors, they're in their 20s, 30s, 40s now, who have taken over. Yeah. 30s, 40s now, who have taken over. Yeah. 30s, 40s now, who have taken over. Yeah. And unfortunately, there's a meaningful And unfortunately, there's a meaningful And unfortunately, there's a meaningful statistical percentage who didn't enter statistical percentage who didn't enter statistical percentage who didn't enter a successful succession, but you know, a successful succession, but you know, a successful succession, but you know, the pastor had to leave because of moral the pastor had to leave because of moral the pastor had to leave because of moral failings or indiscretions. failings or indiscretions. failings or indiscretions. So for the next generation of leaders So for the next generation of leaders So for the next generation of leaders who are stepping into a situation like who are stepping into a situation like who are stepping into a situation like you stepped into a gateway, what is your you stepped into a gateway, what is your you stepped into a gateway, what is your advice to them about um things they advice to them about um things they advice to them about um things they probably should do, things they probably should do, things they probably should do, things they shouldn't do? What a great question. Maybe the best What a great question. Maybe the best thing to do thing to do thing to do would be to go to the story of David and would be to go to the story of David and would be to go to the story of David and Ba Sheeba in 2 Samuel 11 and just read Ba Sheeba in 2 Samuel 11 and just read Ba Sheeba in 2 Samuel 11 and just read it uh over and over and over again. Uh it uh over and over and over again. Uh it uh over and over and over again. Uh it's really such a moving powerful story it's really such a moving powerful story it's really such a moving powerful story of a good man who did a bad thing and of a good man who did a bad thing and of a good man who did a bad thing and bad thing got even worse. Um, someday bad thing got even worse. Um, someday bad thing got even worse. Um, someday let's have a podcast just about David let's have a podcast just about David let's have a podcast just about David and Basheba because you you read that and Basheba because you you read that and Basheba because you you read that story and and number one, David's not story and and number one, David's not story and and number one, David's not out to battle and the implication is he out to battle and the implication is he out to battle and the implication is he should have been.

should have been. should have been. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then number two, David is up on the And then number two, David is up on the And then number two, David is up on the rooftop and which means he's in an rooftop and which means he's in an rooftop and which means he's in an elevated place. And then number three, elevated place. And then number three, elevated place. And then number three, he's looking out over the city and he he's looking out over the city and he he's looking out over the city and he sees a woman bathing and he didn't sees a woman bathing and he didn't sees a woman bathing and he didn't control his thoughts. He didn't manage control his thoughts. He didn't manage control his thoughts. He didn't manage his thoughts. And then he goes into this his thoughts. And then he goes into this his thoughts. And then he goes into this process. Speaking of Eugene Peterson, he process. Speaking of Eugene Peterson, he process. Speaking of Eugene Peterson, he pointed this out in a book called leap pointed this out in a book called leap pointed this out in a book called leap over a wall about David. He points out over a wall about David. He points out over a wall about David. He points out that David started sending. He sent for that David started sending. He sent for that David started sending. He sent for Ba Sheba. He sent for the servant. He Ba Sheba. He sent for the servant. He Ba Sheba. He sent for the servant. He sent for Uriah. He sent He gets in this sent for Uriah. He sent He gets in this sent for Uriah. He sent He gets in this sending mode where he had the power. He sending mode where he had the power. He sending mode where he had the power. He had the power. He had the power. And had the power. He had the power. And had the power. He had the power. And that's the point uh that uh Eugene made that's the point uh that uh Eugene made that's the point uh that uh Eugene made in in that chapter and that is that in in that chapter and that is that in in that chapter and that is that really the story is not so much about really the story is not so much about really the story is not so much about lust as it is about power. And he he let lust as it is about power. And he he let lust as it is about power. And he he let the power get to him. So it gets us back the power get to him. So it gets us back the power get to him. So it gets us back to what we were just discussing. Uh we to what we were just discussing. Uh we to what we were just discussing. Uh we have to as leaders have to as leaders have to as leaders we we are entrusted with authority. We we we are entrusted with authority. We we we are entrusted with authority. We are and we do need to make decisions and are and we do need to make decisions and are and we do need to make decisions and we do need to speak with authority. We we do need to speak with authority. We we do need to speak with authority. We don't need to be wimps. If we do have we don't need to be wimps. If we do have we don't need to be wimps. If we do have we have the Holy Spirit call on our life to have the Holy Spirit call on our life to have the Holy Spirit call on our life to lead a church. And if we feel the church lead a church. And if we feel the church lead a church. And if we feel the church to go in a direction, we need to have to go in a direction, we need to have to go in a direction, we need to have confidence and lead with courage. What confidence and lead with courage. What confidence and lead with courage. What we don't want is for people to worship we don't want is for people to worship we don't want is for people to worship us. We don't want to seek the adoration us. We don't want to seek the adoration us. We don't want to seek the adoration of people. We have to constantly be on of people. We have to constantly be on of people. We have to constantly be on the guard against any form of seduction

the guard against any form of seduction the guard against any form of seduction of power. You know, we to think that I of power. You know, we to think that I of power. You know, we to think that I can get by with this because I am the can get by with this because I am the can get by with this because I am the pastor. That that's a dangerous thought pastor. That that's a dangerous thought pastor. That that's a dangerous thought process. So my word to those younger process. So my word to those younger process. So my word to those younger pastors is just be careful. Read the pastors is just be careful. Read the pastors is just be careful. Read the story of David. And and and David did story of David. And and and David did story of David. And and and David did not come clean, did he? He did not come not come clean, did he? He did not come not come clean, did he? He did not come clean with that. He had to be clean with that. He had to be clean with that. He had to be confronted. confronted. confronted. He had to be confronted by Nathan. And He had to be confronted by Nathan. And He had to be confronted by Nathan. And and even then it was rough for him. Um and even then it was rough for him. Um and even then it was rough for him. Um and so it was not a happy ending to that and so it was not a happy ending to that and so it was not a happy ending to that story. Uh it is a wonderful I mean it is story. Uh it is a wonderful I mean it is story. Uh it is a wonderful I mean it is a sobering warning for us though and a sobering warning for us though and a sobering warning for us though and it's a it's a powerful story in it's a it's a powerful story in it's a it's a powerful story in scripture. scripture. scripture. It's a nice transition into your latest It's a nice transition into your latest It's a nice transition into your latest project where you're talking about your project where you're talking about your project where you're talking about your thought life and you know our mutual thought life and you know our mutual thought life and you know our mutual friend Craig Rashelle says your life is friend Craig Rashelle says your life is friend Craig Rashelle says your life is always moving in the direction of your always moving in the direction of your always moving in the direction of your strongest thoughts and I think it is. So strongest thoughts and I think it is. So strongest thoughts and I think it is. So I'd love to know just you know if if the I'd love to know just you know if if the I'd love to know just you know if if the story of David isn't enough about where story of David isn't enough about where story of David isn't enough about where your mind goes um why are you thinking your mind goes um why are you thinking your mind goes um why are you thinking about how we think right now? about how we think right now? about how we think right now? Yeah. Well, I am at that stage in life, Yeah. Well, I am at that stage in life, Yeah. Well, I am at that stage in life, uh, Carrie, where I'm saying, is there uh, Carrie, where I'm saying, is there uh, Carrie, where I'm saying, is there anything else I want to make sure and anything else I want to make sure and anything else I want to make sure and capture either in a series of sermons or capture either in a series of sermons or capture either in a series of sermons or in a book?

in a book? in a book? You know, I'm 70 years old. I think I You know, I'm 70 years old. I think I You know, I'm 70 years old. I think I have several good years left, but I want have several good years left, but I want have several good years left, but I want to make sure and capture this. And the to make sure and capture this. And the to make sure and capture this. And the one thing that I've uh really been one thing that I've uh really been one thing that I've uh really been impressed with in in in my service in impressed with in in in my service in impressed with in in in my service in the church is that everything begins the church is that everything begins the church is that everything begins with thoughts. Everything begins with with thoughts. Everything begins with with thoughts. Everything begins with thoughts. thoughts. thoughts. um our to tomorrow's today's thoughts um our to tomorrow's today's thoughts um our to tomorrow's today's thoughts are tomorrow's actions. Uh belief begets are tomorrow's actions. Uh belief begets are tomorrow's actions. Uh belief begets behavior. So if you want to change your behavior. So if you want to change your behavior. So if you want to change your behavior, go back to your beliefs. And behavior, go back to your beliefs. And behavior, go back to your beliefs. And so this whole idea of managing our so this whole idea of managing our so this whole idea of managing our thoughts and the wonderful scriptures thoughts and the wonderful scriptures thoughts and the wonderful scriptures that that God gives us uh is really a that that God gives us uh is really a that that God gives us uh is really a relevant issue. Uh one researcher says relevant issue. Uh one researcher says relevant issue. Uh one researcher says we have 70,000 thoughts a day. 70,000 we have 70,000 thoughts a day. 70,000 we have 70,000 thoughts a day. 70,000 thoughts a day. The Cleveland Clinic thoughts a day. The Cleveland Clinic thoughts a day. The Cleveland Clinic says four out of five of those thoughts says four out of five of those thoughts says four out of five of those thoughts are negative or self-critical. I don't are negative or self-critical. I don't are negative or self-critical. I don't know if that's true or not, but surely know if that's true or not, but surely know if that's true or not, but surely they know what they're talking about. they know what they're talking about. they know what they're talking about. Well, mostly positive, mostly negative. Well, mostly positive, mostly negative. Well, mostly positive, mostly negative. Has it changed over the years? Has it changed over the years? Has it changed over the years? Yeah. Okay. Okay. I do think as as I've Yeah. Okay. Okay. I do think as as I've Yeah. Okay. Okay. I do think as as I've I've grown in my faith, I've learned to I've grown in my faith, I've learned to I've grown in my faith, I've learned to manage my thoughts better and I've put manage my thoughts better and I've put manage my thoughts better and I've put into practice the tools that I teach into practice the tools that I teach into practice the tools that I teach about or talk about in this in this about or talk about in this in this about or talk about in this in this book. Uh, I do think I'm pretty good book. Uh, I do think I'm pretty good book. Uh, I do think I'm pretty good about being a picky thinker, and that's about being a picky thinker, and that's about being a picky thinker, and that's tool number one. But I awoke this tool number one. But I awoke this tool number one. But I awoke this morning at 5:30 a.m. Usually I get up morning at 5:30 a.m. Usually I get up morning at 5:30 a.m. Usually I get up about 6:30 or 7. I awoke this morning at about 6:30 or 7. I awoke this morning at about 6:30 or 7. I awoke this morning at 5:30 a.m. and I could not shut my brain 5:30 a.m. and I could not shut my brain 5:30 a.m. and I could not shut my brain off. I just could not. And four out of

off. I just could not. And four out of off. I just could not. And four out of five of those thoughts were not five of those thoughts were not five of those thoughts were not positive. I was anxious about getting positive. I was anxious about getting positive. I was anxious about getting things done, meeting some deadlines. Um, things done, meeting some deadlines. Um, things done, meeting some deadlines. Um, I've got to do something in a couple of I've got to do something in a couple of I've got to do something in a couple of days that I really didn't want to do, days that I really didn't want to do, days that I really didn't want to do, but I have to do, you know, I was just but I have to do, you know, I was just but I have to do, you know, I was just peeing, you know, and and I could not peeing, you know, and and I could not peeing, you know, and and I could not shut up. So, I finally had to get out of shut up. So, I finally had to get out of shut up. So, I finally had to get out of bed. bed. bed. Uh, I I walked out. It's, you know, onto Uh, I I walked out. It's, you know, onto Uh, I I walked out. It's, you know, onto our veranda is South Texas, so it's our veranda is South Texas, so it's our veranda is South Texas, so it's always warm. Even at night, I can go always warm. Even at night, I can go always warm. Even at night, I can go outside. And I I sat and I looked into outside. And I I sat and I looked into outside. And I I sat and I looked into the dark sky and I said, "Lord, you got the dark sky and I said, "Lord, you got the dark sky and I said, "Lord, you got to help me. You got to help me. Please to help me. You got to help me. Please to help me. You got to help me. Please help me to calm my thoughts down." It's help me to calm my thoughts down." It's help me to calm my thoughts down." It's a daily issue for all of us. Every a daily issue for all of us. Every a daily issue for all of us. Every single human being is trying to well, single human being is trying to well, single human being is trying to well, every single human being battles toxic every single human being battles toxic every single human being battles toxic thoughts. Now, not all of them know that thoughts. Now, not all of them know that thoughts. Now, not all of them know that they can take those thoughts captive. they can take those thoughts captive. they can take those thoughts captive. And I think that's the liberating idea. And I think that's the liberating idea. And I think that's the liberating idea. Of course, my book is written from a a Of course, my book is written from a a Of course, my book is written from a a Christian worldview. Christian worldview. Christian worldview. Of course, I believe there's a good God. Of course, I believe there's a good God. Of course, I believe there's a good God. Of course, I believe that he's coming Of course, I believe that he's coming Of course, I believe that he's coming for us. Of course, I believe that he is for us. Of course, I believe that he is for us. Of course, I believe that he is a calming presence in our lives. In a calming presence in our lives. In a calming presence in our lives. In fact, I think that's the secret sauce of fact, I think that's the secret sauce of fact, I think that's the secret sauce of thought management is the belief in the thought management is the belief in the thought management is the belief in the God of the Bible. I don't know what I God of the Bible. I don't know what I God of the Bible. I don't know what I would say to somebody who has doesn't would say to somebody who has doesn't would say to somebody who has doesn't believe that worldview. I think it's believe that worldview. I think it's believe that worldview. I think it's going to be really challenging. But I do going to be really challenging. But I do going to be really challenging. But I do believe that that when a person says yes believe that that when a person says yes believe that that when a person says yes to Jesus, Jesus says yes to them and he to Jesus, Jesus says yes to them and he to Jesus, Jesus says yes to them and he begins this process of laying claim to begins this process of laying claim to begins this process of laying claim to our minds that we can be not conformed our minds that we can be not conformed our minds that we can be not conformed to the world but transformed by the

to the world but transformed by the to the world but transformed by the renewal of our minds. That's good news. renewal of our minds. That's good news. renewal of our minds. That's good news. That's good news. That's good news. That's good news. When you look over your life, what have When you look over your life, what have When you look over your life, what have been some of the most challenging been some of the most challenging been some of the most challenging thoughts to overcome? Comparison has thoughts to overcome? Comparison has thoughts to overcome? Comparison has been a challenge for me and uh I've been a challenge for me and uh I've been a challenge for me and uh I've compared our church to other churches. compared our church to other churches. compared our church to other churches. Uh and and let me just state up front Uh and and let me just state up front Uh and and let me just state up front comparison is not healthy. Comparison is comparison is not healthy. Comparison is comparison is not healthy. Comparison is either leads to either feelings of either leads to either feelings of either leads to either feelings of superiority or inferiority. And I've superiority or inferiority. And I've superiority or inferiority. And I've I've known both. U as a pastor uh I came I've known both. U as a pastor uh I came I've known both. U as a pastor uh I came to our church in 1988. We enjoyed a to our church in 1988. We enjoyed a to our church in 1988. We enjoyed a wonderful decade of growth uh for the wonderful decade of growth uh for the wonderful decade of growth uh for the first decade. I mean we exploded. We first decade. I mean we exploded. We first decade. I mean we exploded. We truly exploded. truly exploded. truly exploded. But the guy whose voice you're hearing But the guy whose voice you're hearing But the guy whose voice you're hearing right now, he got a little cocky. right now, he got a little cocky. right now, he got a little cocky. I began thinking it's all about me. I I began thinking it's all about me. I I began thinking it's all about me. I began really tooting my own horn. And um began really tooting my own horn. And um began really tooting my own horn. And um not long after our our attendance not long after our our attendance not long after our our attendance leveled out and so a church across town leveled out and so a church across town leveled out and so a church across town exploded.

exploded. exploded. [Music] [Music] [Music] So you know where I'm going with this. So you know where I'm going with this. So you know where I'm going with this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I recall and this pastor is a dear I recall and this pastor is a dear I recall and this pastor is a dear friend of mine. He's retired. I love him friend of mine. He's retired. I love him friend of mine. He's retired. I love him and he knows this story, but he built a and he knows this story, but he built a and he knows this story, but he built a beautiful sanctuary and I went over to beautiful sanctuary and I went over to beautiful sanctuary and I went over to his sanctuary just to attend a concert. his sanctuary just to attend a concert. his sanctuary just to attend a concert. I can't remember who it was. I can't remember who it was. I can't remember who it was. It was a brand new sanctuary. I walked It was a brand new sanctuary. I walked It was a brand new sanctuary. I walked in and I got so consumed with jealousy. in and I got so consumed with jealousy. in and I got so consumed with jealousy. I could not enjoy that concert. I could I could not enjoy that concert. I could I could not enjoy that concert. I could not worship. I just I was almost angry not worship. I just I was almost angry not worship. I just I was almost angry that this church was doing so well. And that this church was doing so well. And that this church was doing so well. And and Carrie, our church was doing great. and Carrie, our church was doing great. and Carrie, our church was doing great. You were great. You were great. You were great. We were we were out of debt. We had a We were we were out of debt. We had a We were we were out of debt. We had a wonderful facility. Our staff was doing wonderful facility. Our staff was doing wonderful facility. Our staff was doing fine, but we weren't the hot thing in fine, but we weren't the hot thing in fine, but we weren't the hot thing in town. Okay. We weren't the the trendy town. Okay. We weren't the the trendy town. Okay. We weren't the the trendy place to be. place to be. place to be. There's a new cool kid down the street. There's a new cool kid down the street. There's a new cool kid down the street. Exactly. So, that's been my struggle. Uh Exactly. So, that's been my struggle. Uh Exactly. So, that's been my struggle. Uh and I, you know, I'm just honest about and I, you know, I'm just honest about and I, you know, I'm just honest about it. Sometimes I wish my book sold more it. Sometimes I wish my book sold more it. Sometimes I wish my book sold more than someone else's. Isn't that a than someone else's. Isn't that a than someone else's. Isn't that a terrible thing to confess? terrible thing to confess? terrible thing to confess? Yeah. And you're doing okay in that Yeah. And you're doing okay in that Yeah. And you're doing okay in that category.

category. category. I think you're doing all right in that I think you're doing all right in that I think you're doing all right in that m and so I'm almost I am embarrassed to m and so I'm almost I am embarrassed to m and so I'm almost I am embarrassed to admit it but that's true. So the the admit it but that's true. So the the admit it but that's true. So the the step one is to acknowledge okay this is step one is to acknowledge okay this is step one is to acknowledge okay this is an issue for me now in the book forgive an issue for me now in the book forgive an issue for me now in the book forgive me for sound like I'm you know promoting me for sound like I'm you know promoting me for sound like I'm you know promoting the book but I but I do think this tool the book but I but I do think this tool the book but I but I do think this tool is very helpful. is very helpful. is very helpful. Yeah tell us to unpack in the book it's Yeah tell us to unpack in the book it's Yeah tell us to unpack in the book it's called UFO called UFO called UFO untruth leads to false narrative that untruth leads to false narrative that untruth leads to false narrative that leads to an overreaction. So take us leads to an overreaction. So take us leads to an overreaction. So take us through a case. Okay. What does that through a case. Okay. What does that through a case. Okay. What does that look like? look like? look like? Case study. My case study would be me. Case study. My case study would be me. Case study. My case study would be me. The untruth is Leo is only good as good The untruth is Leo is only good as good The untruth is Leo is only good as good as his church is successful. as his church is successful. as his church is successful. Leo is his value uh is measured in Leo is his value uh is measured in Leo is his value uh is measured in church attendance. Okay, that's not church attendance. Okay, that's not church attendance. Okay, that's not true. I'm valuable because God loves me, true. I'm valuable because God loves me, true. I'm valuable because God loves me, because he chose me. Because he because he chose me. Because he because he chose me. Because he indwwells me. Because he dwells within indwwells me. Because he dwells within indwwells me. Because he dwells within me, and because he because I'm his me, and because he because I'm his me, and because he because I'm his child. Okay, that's the truth. But I'll child. Okay, that's the truth. But I'll child. Okay, that's the truth. But I'll let an untruth lead to a false let an untruth lead to a false let an untruth lead to a false narrative. A false narrative is what? A narrative. A false narrative is what? A narrative. A false narrative is what? A narrative is what we say to ourselves narrative is what we say to ourselves narrative is what we say to ourselves and the way we see ourselves. What I was and the way we see ourselves. What I was and the way we see ourselves. What I was saying to myself was, "I've kind of lost saying to myself was, "I've kind of lost saying to myself was, "I've kind of lost my juice. I'm I'm not the guy I used to my juice. I'm I'm not the guy I used to my juice. I'm I'm not the guy I used to be. I'm I'm not as effective as I once be. I'm I'm not as effective as I once be. I'm I'm not as effective as I once was." That leads to an overreaction was." That leads to an overreaction was." That leads to an overreaction of jealousy, inferiority, of jealousy, inferiority, of jealousy, inferiority, feelings of anger. could even lead to feelings of anger. could even lead to feelings of anger. could even lead to trying the latest trend, trying to get trying the latest trend, trying to get trying the latest trend, trying to get our church to puff up.

our church to puff up. our church to puff up. I'm gonna double down. I'm gonna say I'm gonna double down. I'm gonna say I'm gonna double down. I'm gonna say you're gonna double down. We're gonna do you're gonna double down. We're gonna do you're gonna double down. We're gonna do something. We're gonna do something something. We're gonna do something something. We're gonna do something that's not consistent with our church that's not consistent with our church that's not consistent with our church values. You know, I could try a variety values. You know, I could try a variety values. You know, I could try a variety of things. And and so helping uh helping of things. And and so helping uh helping of things. And and so helping uh helping manage your thoughts is when you see manage your thoughts is when you see manage your thoughts is when you see that overreaction, that overreaction, that overreaction, uh back up, put it in reverse, go uh back up, put it in reverse, go uh back up, put it in reverse, go upstream, and say, "Is there an untruth upstream, and say, "Is there an untruth upstream, and say, "Is there an untruth somewhere? It it could be a blatant lie. somewhere? It it could be a blatant lie. somewhere? It it could be a blatant lie. It could just be a misunderstanding. It could just be a misunderstanding. It could just be a misunderstanding. Most likely, it's the influence of Most likely, it's the influence of Most likely, it's the influence of society. Uh but what's the untruth society. Uh but what's the untruth society. Uh but what's the untruth that's creating this false narrative that's creating this false narrative that's creating this false narrative that's causing me to overreact in this that's causing me to overreact in this that's causing me to overreact in this way? The final thought on that is as a way? The final thought on that is as a way? The final thought on that is as a pastor and helping trying to help pastor and helping trying to help pastor and helping trying to help people, I've learned that rather than people, I've learned that rather than people, I've learned that rather than deal with the overreaction of marital deal with the overreaction of marital deal with the overreaction of marital infidelity or explosive temper, why infidelity or explosive temper, why infidelity or explosive temper, why don't we back up and find the untruth don't we back up and find the untruth don't we back up and find the untruth that's creating that? And that really that's creating that? And that really that's creating that? And that really helps people. Uh rather than for me to helps people. Uh rather than for me to helps people. Uh rather than for me to say, "Hey, get your act together."

say, "Hey, get your act together." say, "Hey, get your act together." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, I can I can Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, I can I can Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, I can I can put my therapist hat on or pastoral hat put my therapist hat on or pastoral hat put my therapist hat on or pastoral hat on and say, "Hey, there's a reason for on and say, "Hey, there's a reason for on and say, "Hey, there's a reason for that. You're not a bad person. Let's that. You're not a bad person. Let's that. You're not a bad person. Let's let's go back upstream and see if we can let's go back upstream and see if we can let's go back upstream and see if we can disentangle this thought pattern." disentangle this thought pattern." disentangle this thought pattern." You know, you're reading my mail. I You know, you're reading my mail. I You know, you're reading my mail. I mean, I'm working with my mean, I'm working with my mean, I'm working with my counselor/performance counselor/performance counselor/performance psychologist depending on who I'm psychologist depending on who I'm psychologist depending on who I'm explaining what he does for me to. And explaining what he does for me to. And explaining what he does for me to. And uh shout out Dr. Chappelle. But anyway, uh shout out Dr. Chappelle. But anyway, uh shout out Dr. Chappelle. But anyway, he's working on my thought life. And he's working on my thought life. And he's working on my thought life. And it's exactly that that there are still it's exactly that that there are still it's exactly that that there are still at this stage in my life some false at this stage in my life some false at this stage in my life some false beliefs that I have not not theological beliefs that I have not not theological beliefs that I have not not theological beliefs but just beliefs about how my beliefs but just beliefs about how my beliefs but just beliefs about how my thinking goes and it's not helping me. thinking goes and it's not helping me. thinking goes and it's not helping me. And you know I kind of like to have And you know I kind of like to have And you know I kind of like to have believed that I've arrived but I believed that I've arrived but I believed that I've arrived but I haven't. haven't. haven't. I would love to know you know Max you I would love to know you know Max you I would love to know you know Max you and I think about this a lot as well. We and I think about this a lot as well. We and I think about this a lot as well. We have a long pre-digital memory. I mean, have a long pre-digital memory. I mean, have a long pre-digital memory. I mean, you remember when you had to knock on you remember when you had to knock on you remember when you had to knock on someone's door to try to get their someone's door to try to get their someone's door to try to get their attention or call them or leave a attention or call them or leave a attention or call them or leave a voicemail on a landline and when cell voicemail on a landline and when cell voicemail on a landline and when cell phones were a novelty and, you know, too phones were a novelty and, you know, too phones were a novelty and, you know, too expensive for most of us. You You expensive for most of us. You You expensive for most of us. You You remember that? So do I.

remember that? So do I. remember that? So do I. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And we remember a time where we weren't And we remember a time where we weren't And we remember a time where we weren't connected 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. connected 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. connected 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. But, you know, if you're under 40, you But, you know, if you're under 40, you But, you know, if you're under 40, you pretty much have a you're a digital pretty much have a you're a digital pretty much have a you're a digital native. native. native. Do you think it's harder for digital Do you think it's harder for digital Do you think it's harder for digital natives to tame their thoughts? natives to tame their thoughts? natives to tame their thoughts? Mhm. No doubt. Do you think we have an Mhm. No doubt. Do you think we have an Mhm. No doubt. Do you think we have an advantage? advantage? advantage? I do. I do. I do. Um I I think the idea that we're only a Um I I think the idea that we're only a Um I I think the idea that we're only a click of a button away. Well, we don't click of a button away. Well, we don't click of a button away. Well, we don't have to click the button. I get a news have to click the button. I get a news have to click the button. I get a news feed on my phone. If I were to pick it feed on my phone. If I were to pick it feed on my phone. If I were to pick it up, it's not with me right now. up, it's not with me right now. up, it's not with me right now. Yeah. I don't know where my phone is Yeah. I don't know where my phone is Yeah. I don't know where my phone is because because we're in this in the because because we're in this in the because because we're in this in the studio, but I I'm very confident that studio, but I I'm very confident that studio, but I I'm very confident that it's telling me the headlines of the it's telling me the headlines of the it's telling me the headlines of the day. I I could just glance down and day. I I could just glance down and day. I I could just glance down and there'll be two big headlines. there'll be two big headlines. there'll be two big headlines. And that's helpful, I guess. Maybe it's And that's helpful, I guess. Maybe it's And that's helpful, I guess. Maybe it's not, though. Maybe I don't need to know not, though. Maybe I don't need to know not, though. Maybe I don't need to know that. uh that there was an earthquake in that. uh that there was an earthquake in that. uh that there was an earthquake in Malaysia. Maybe I don't need to know Malaysia. Maybe I don't need to know Malaysia. Maybe I don't need to know that. Uh maybe I don't need to be that. Uh maybe I don't need to be that. Uh maybe I don't need to be reminded uh that there is yet another reminded uh that there is yet another reminded uh that there is yet another skirmish uh that has broken out in in a skirmish uh that has broken out in in a skirmish uh that has broken out in in a certain part of the world. Uh if we get certain part of the world. Uh if we get certain part of the world. Uh if we get these news feeds 24 hours, 7 days a these news feeds 24 hours, 7 days a these news feeds 24 hours, 7 days a week, they're going to take their toll week, they're going to take their toll week, they're going to take their toll on us and they are going to be taking on us and they are going to be taking on us and they are going to be taking that role of an untruth. they can create that role of an untruth. they can create that role of an untruth. they can create an untruth that the world is in chaos an untruth that the world is in chaos an untruth that the world is in chaos and it's only going to get worse and I'm and it's only going to get worse and I'm and it's only going to get worse and I'm might as well get out while I can. You might as well get out while I can. You might as well get out while I can. You know, the the suicide rate among uh know, the the suicide rate among uh know, the the suicide rate among uh teenagers is is escalated. Uh two in 10 teenagers is is escalated. Uh two in 10 teenagers is is escalated. Uh two in 10 teens have considered suicide in the six teens have considered suicide in the six teens have considered suicide in the six months prior to the interview or survey.

months prior to the interview or survey. months prior to the interview or survey. So, I wonder if that's where it comes So, I wonder if that's where it comes So, I wonder if that's where it comes from. the these overreactions, this from. the these overreactions, this from. the these overreactions, this battle with anxiety and depression. battle with anxiety and depression. battle with anxiety and depression. Maybe it's this constant news feed, this Maybe it's this constant news feed, this Maybe it's this constant news feed, this constant that that that just never shuts constant that that that just never shuts constant that that that just never shuts off. off. off. Well, we have the knowledge of God Well, we have the knowledge of God Well, we have the knowledge of God thanks to technology, not all of it. thanks to technology, not all of it. thanks to technology, not all of it. We're not omnisient, but we don't have We're not omnisient, but we don't have We're not omnisient, but we don't have the wisdom of God. We don't know what to the wisdom of God. We don't know what to the wisdom of God. We don't know what to do with it. We're we're being saturated. do with it. We're we're being saturated. do with it. We're we're being saturated. So for leaders who are trying to tame So for leaders who are trying to tame So for leaders who are trying to tame their thoughts, who are trying to gain their thoughts, who are trying to gain their thoughts, who are trying to gain control over their thought life, you control over their thought life, you control over their thought life, you mentioned UFO whether what other advice mentioned UFO whether what other advice mentioned UFO whether what other advice do you have for them? Well, this is a do you have for them? Well, this is a do you have for them? Well, this is a bit this is a bit thought management bit this is a bit thought management bit this is a bit thought management 101, but it has to be said and that is 101, but it has to be said and that is 101, but it has to be said and that is we got to practice picky thinking. Uh we got to practice picky thinking. Uh we got to practice picky thinking. Uh you know the 2 Corinthians 10 passage you know the 2 Corinthians 10 passage you know the 2 Corinthians 10 passage says take every thought captive. says take every thought captive. says take every thought captive. By the way, By the way, By the way, how do you do that? What do you do in how do you do that? What do you do in how do you do that? What do you do in your life? your life? your life? Yeah. Yeah. I think by the way our good Yeah. Yeah. I think by the way our good Yeah. Yeah. I think by the way our good friend Kyle Idleman put in a plug for friend Kyle Idleman put in a plug for friend Kyle Idleman put in a plug for him. He's got a book just just by this him. He's got a book just just by this him. He's got a book just just by this very title, Every Thought Captive. And very title, Every Thought Captive. And very title, Every Thought Captive. And it's a wonderful book.

it's a wonderful book. it's a wonderful book. Uh and he and I had a great conversation Uh and he and I had a great conversation Uh and he and I had a great conversation about this topic just a week or so ago. about this topic just a week or so ago. about this topic just a week or so ago. Uh practice picky thinking means that Uh practice picky thinking means that Uh practice picky thinking means that you see as your highest call of the day you see as your highest call of the day you see as your highest call of the day to filter your thoughts. to filter your thoughts. to filter your thoughts. You see as your highest call, your You see as your highest call, your You see as your highest call, your highest call of the day is to filter highest call of the day is to filter highest call of the day is to filter your thoughts. So, you're always on your thoughts. So, you're always on your thoughts. So, you're always on guard thinking, "Am I supposed to think guard thinking, "Am I supposed to think guard thinking, "Am I supposed to think this? Hm, I don't think I'm supposed to this? Hm, I don't think I'm supposed to this? Hm, I don't think I'm supposed to think that." Uh, one one Greek scholar think that." Uh, one one Greek scholar think that." Uh, one one Greek scholar uh that I read said that phrase, "Take uh that I read said that phrase, "Take uh that I read said that phrase, "Take every thought captive." It's kind of a every thought captive." It's kind of a every thought captive." It's kind of a military term that implies you're military term that implies you're military term that implies you're putting a spear to the back of an enemy putting a spear to the back of an enemy putting a spear to the back of an enemy and marching them to meet a an and marching them to meet a an and marching them to meet a an authority. Well, maybe that's true. authority. Well, maybe that's true. authority. Well, maybe that's true. Maybe we take this thought captive. you Maybe we take this thought captive. you Maybe we take this thought captive. you know, Freddy Fret comes and plops down know, Freddy Fret comes and plops down know, Freddy Fret comes and plops down on my couch. And he begins to spout all on my couch. And he begins to spout all on my couch. And he begins to spout all these these these you've got melanoma. The world's going you've got melanoma. The world's going you've got melanoma. The world's going off the edge. Uh you're not going to off the edge. Uh you're not going to off the edge. Uh you're not going to have enough money for retirement. All have enough money for retirement. All have enough money for retirement. All these thoughts he brings with him. these thoughts he brings with him. these thoughts he brings with him. Rather than let him just have his way Rather than let him just have his way Rather than let him just have his way with me, I say, "Hold on now, just a with me, I say, "Hold on now, just a with me, I say, "Hold on now, just a second." You know, Christ through Paul second." You know, Christ through Paul second." You know, Christ through Paul said, "Take every thought captive. Come said, "Take every thought captive. Come said, "Take every thought captive. Come here for a second." and we put a spear here for a second." and we put a spear here for a second." and we put a spear to his back and we march him into the to his back and we march him into the to his back and we march him into the throne room and we say, "Jesus, am I throne room and we say, "Jesus, am I throne room and we say, "Jesus, am I supposed to think this thought?"

supposed to think this thought?" supposed to think this thought?" And Jesus will say, "Only if he submits And Jesus will say, "Only if he submits And Jesus will say, "Only if he submits to my authority." And of course, Freddy to my authority." And of course, Freddy to my authority." And of course, Freddy Fret will never submit to the authority Fret will never submit to the authority Fret will never submit to the authority of Christ. Uh, and he and he's banished. of Christ. Uh, and he and he's banished. of Christ. Uh, and he and he's banished. You know, there's this little phrase in You know, there's this little phrase in You know, there's this little phrase in John 13:2 about Judas that says, "Satan John 13:2 about Judas that says, "Satan John 13:2 about Judas that says, "Satan planted the idea in the mind of Judas to planted the idea in the mind of Judas to planted the idea in the mind of Judas to betray Christ." He planted an idea in betray Christ." He planted an idea in betray Christ." He planted an idea in his mind. So we need to be aware that his mind. So we need to be aware that his mind. So we need to be aware that there is an enemy who wants to plant there is an enemy who wants to plant there is an enemy who wants to plant ideas in our minds. So we take those ideas in our minds. So we take those ideas in our minds. So we take those thoughts captive when we say is this thoughts captive when we say is this thoughts captive when we say is this from God or is this not? And and for from God or is this not? And and for from God or is this not? And and for young people this is a key a key young people this is a key a key young people this is a key a key discipline a very key discipline that discipline a very key discipline that discipline a very key discipline that will save you from a lot of heartache will save you from a lot of heartache will save you from a lot of heartache down the road. Practice picky thinking. down the road. Practice picky thinking. down the road. Practice picky thinking. When you have a thought that you When you have a thought that you When you have a thought that you shouldn't think, then you uh identify shouldn't think, then you uh identify shouldn't think, then you uh identify that UFO, this untruth that's going to that UFO, this untruth that's going to that UFO, this untruth that's going to lead to a false narrative. Watch out for lead to a false narrative. Watch out for lead to a false narrative. Watch out for that overreaction. And then once you that overreaction. And then once you that overreaction. And then once you recognize that, the third tool is you recognize that, the third tool is you recognize that, the third tool is you uproot and replant. I mean, you get uproot and replant. I mean, you get uproot and replant. I mean, you get serious about you. Pull it out by the serious about you. Pull it out by the serious about you. Pull it out by the roots. You say, "I'm not going to think roots. You say, "I'm not going to think roots. You say, "I'm not going to think that anymore. Dog gone it. With the help that anymore. Dog gone it. With the help that anymore. Dog gone it. With the help of the Lord, I'm not going to compare of the Lord, I'm not going to compare of the Lord, I'm not going to compare myself to other pastors. That's not from myself to other pastors. That's not from myself to other pastors. That's not from Jesus. I'm going to uproot that and I'm Jesus. I'm going to uproot that and I'm Jesus. I'm going to uproot that and I'm going to replant uh with a scripture going to replant uh with a scripture going to replant uh with a scripture that says uh you are fearfully and that says uh you are fearfully and that says uh you are fearfully and wonderfully made. Uh you're saved by wonderfully made. Uh you're saved by wonderfully made. Uh you're saved by grace not by works lest anyone should grace not by works lest anyone should grace not by works lest anyone should boast. So I have a you know a cadre or a boast. So I have a you know a cadre or a boast. So I have a you know a cadre or a database of scriptures I can turn to and database of scriptures I can turn to and database of scriptures I can turn to and when that thought surfaces then I plant when that thought surfaces then I plant when that thought surfaces then I plant the seed of the truth of God where that

the seed of the truth of God where that the seed of the truth of God where that weed was and let it begin to change my weed was and let it begin to change my weed was and let it begin to change my way of thinking. And over a period of way of thinking. And over a period of way of thinking. And over a period of time, that thought pattern will uh well, time, that thought pattern will uh well, time, that thought pattern will uh well, I think it'll disappear. I think it'll disappear. I think it'll disappear. So, getting really practical, how do you So, getting really practical, how do you So, getting really practical, how do you do this? Is this like a constant top of- do this? Is this like a constant top of- do this? Is this like a constant top of- mind thing? mind thing? mind thing? Do you start the day with it, end the Do you start the day with it, end the Do you start the day with it, end the day with it? Are there rhythms, habits, day with it? Are there rhythms, habits, day with it? Are there rhythms, habits, disciplines that are going to help you disciplines that are going to help you disciplines that are going to help you get better at this, or are you just get better at this, or are you just get better at this, or are you just always on your guard? You know, this always on your guard? You know, this always on your guard? You know, this might be from your book. I'm trying to might be from your book. I'm trying to might be from your book. I'm trying to remember, but you know, but identifying remember, but you know, but identifying remember, but you know, but identifying the thoughts. Somebody said, "Check the thoughts. Somebody said, "Check the thoughts. Somebody said, "Check IDs." IDs." IDs." Check IDs. What what idea is this? Okay. Check IDs. What what idea is this? Okay. Check IDs. What what idea is this? Okay. Oh, no. False. You're from the enemy. Oh, no. False. You're from the enemy. Oh, no. False. You're from the enemy. Get out. Um, but like I find like if you Get out. Um, but like I find like if you Get out. Um, but like I find like if you have 70,000 thoughts a day, have 70,000 thoughts a day, have 70,000 thoughts a day, can you do that in a fiveminute can you do that in a fiveminute can you do that in a fiveminute meditation? I don't think so. meditation? I don't think so. meditation? I don't think so. No, but you No, you cannot. But you can No, but you No, you cannot. But you can No, but you No, you cannot. But you can begin the day, let your earliest thought begin the day, let your earliest thought begin the day, let your earliest thought seek to be a God thought and say, "God, seek to be a God thought and say, "God, seek to be a God thought and say, "God, even as you're waking up, give God your even as you're waking up, give God your even as you're waking up, give God your waking moments. Say, God, uh, please waking moments. Say, God, uh, please waking moments. Say, God, uh, please today go ahead of me. what thoughts can today go ahead of me. what thoughts can today go ahead of me. what thoughts can I be thinking? And then give God I be thinking? And then give God I be thinking? And then give God throughout the day your worshiping throughout the day your worshiping throughout the day your worshiping moments. I mean, the worship is is more moments. I mean, the worship is is more moments. I mean, the worship is is more than just singing your favorite song.

than just singing your favorite song. than just singing your favorite song. It's truly declaring that God is It's truly declaring that God is It's truly declaring that God is sovereign over the earth. U my wife sovereign over the earth. U my wife sovereign over the earth. U my wife always has worship music going in the always has worship music going in the always has worship music going in the house. And and she says that's to help house. And and she says that's to help house. And and she says that's to help her think in the way God wants her to her think in the way God wants her to her think in the way God wants her to think. And I love that about her. think. And I love that about her. think. And I love that about her. And then you give God your waning And then you give God your waning And then you give God your waning thoughts at the end of the day. Uh so so thoughts at the end of the day. Uh so so thoughts at the end of the day. Uh so so you're asking him as you look back over you're asking him as you look back over you're asking him as you look back over the day, Lord, is there anything I the day, Lord, is there anything I the day, Lord, is there anything I should did I thought that I shouldn't should did I thought that I shouldn't should did I thought that I shouldn't have thought? So you begin uh your day, have thought? So you begin uh your day, have thought? So you begin uh your day, you lead your day, you end your day you lead your day, you end your day you lead your day, you end your day always by saying, Lord, help me have I I always by saying, Lord, help me have I I always by saying, Lord, help me have I I wonder Carrie test me on this. Is isn't wonder Carrie test me on this. Is isn't wonder Carrie test me on this. Is isn't maybe the essence of disciplehip is maybe the essence of disciplehip is maybe the essence of disciplehip is thought management. Maybe that's just thought management. Maybe that's just thought management. Maybe that's just the maybe maybe when we say let's the maybe maybe when we say let's the maybe maybe when we say let's disciple people, what we're saying is disciple people, what we're saying is disciple people, what we're saying is let's help people learn to think with let's help people learn to think with let's help people learn to think with the mind of Christ. Would that be a fair the mind of Christ. Would that be a fair the mind of Christ. Would that be a fair statement? statement? statement? Yeah, I think that that's fair. Do you Yeah, I think that that's fair. Do you Yeah, I think that that's fair. Do you weird question? Do you have a time of weird question? Do you have a time of weird question? Do you have a time of day where your thought life gets more day where your thought life gets more day where your thought life gets more out of control? I often find it's the out of control? I often find it's the out of control? I often find it's the afternoon. afternoon. afternoon. Do you wonder why?

Do you wonder why? Do you wonder why? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Like green zone, I wake up. I'm pretty Like green zone, I wake up. I'm pretty Like green zone, I wake up. I'm pretty focused in the morning. focused in the morning. focused in the morning. Yeah. But, you know, I'm on some meds Yeah. But, you know, I'm on some meds Yeah. But, you know, I'm on some meds for a anemia condition I have too. And for a anemia condition I have too. And for a anemia condition I have too. And I'm finding in the afternoon like my I'm finding in the afternoon like my I'm finding in the afternoon like my thought life will go wild just in terms thought life will go wild just in terms thought life will go wild just in terms of um being a little more aggressive or of um being a little more aggressive or of um being a little more aggressive or rude. My wife's like reigning me in rude. My wife's like reigning me in rude. My wife's like reigning me in going, "Hey, that wasn't very nice." And going, "Hey, that wasn't very nice." And going, "Hey, that wasn't very nice." And um I don't know. It's interesting. The um I don't know. It's interesting. The um I don't know. It's interesting. The evening I I I tend to be okay. evening I I I tend to be okay. evening I I I tend to be okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But have you thought about that from the But have you thought about that from the But have you thought about that from the context of thought life? Are there context of thought life? Are there context of thought life? Are there seasons? Like we all have rhythms, seasons? Like we all have rhythms, seasons? Like we all have rhythms, right? We're morning people, we're night right? We're morning people, we're night right? We're morning people, we're night owls. owls. owls. Mhm. Uh, you know, it's it's that line Mhm. Uh, you know, it's it's that line Mhm. Uh, you know, it's it's that line you give your teenager. Nothing good you give your teenager. Nothing good you give your teenager. Nothing good happens after midnight. Like, please happens after midnight. Like, please happens after midnight. Like, please come home. come home. come home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you're if you're going to You know, if you're if you're going to You know, if you're if you're going to be out at midnight with your friends, be out at midnight with your friends, be out at midnight with your friends, you're probably going to get in trouble you're probably going to get in trouble you're probably going to get in trouble as a teenager. as a teenager. as a teenager. Um, I'm just curious about time and Um, I'm just curious about time and Um, I'm just curious about time and thought life. Some people can't sleep at thought life. Some people can't sleep at thought life. Some people can't sleep at night. Usually, that is not my problem. night. Usually, that is not my problem. night. Usually, that is not my problem. That I was about to say that's when my That I was about to say that's when my That I was about to say that's when my thoughts can take off on me when I'm thoughts can take off on me when I'm thoughts can take off on me when I'm trying to fall asleep. Yeah. and or I trying to fall asleep. Yeah. and or I trying to fall asleep. Yeah. and or I wake up in the middle of the night and I wake up in the middle of the night and I wake up in the middle of the night and I I the problem with midnight thoughts or I the problem with midnight thoughts or I the problem with midnight thoughts or middle of the night thoughts is they're middle of the night thoughts is they're middle of the night thoughts is they're really not cogent. You're just barely really not cogent. You're just barely really not cogent. You're just barely awake. You're kind of more asleep and awake. You're kind of more asleep and awake. You're kind of more asleep and and so you're not thinking clearly and and so you're not thinking clearly and and so you're not thinking clearly and and they can take their toll on your and they can take their toll on your and they can take their toll on your rest because you're you're going rest because you're you're going rest because you're you're going overboard and you're not thinking overboard and you're not thinking overboard and you're not thinking clearly. I have to get up, get out of clearly. I have to get up, get out of clearly. I have to get up, get out of bed, get a glass of water, uh, and kind bed, get a glass of water, uh, and kind bed, get a glass of water, uh, and kind of, you know, wake myself up and then go of, you know, wake myself up and then go of, you know, wake myself up and then go back to sleep.

back to sleep. back to sleep. I will say I I have certain things that I will say I I have certain things that I will say I I have certain things that activate uh unhealthy thoughts. In my activate uh unhealthy thoughts. In my activate uh unhealthy thoughts. In my case, I I really like having a a a to-do case, I I really like having a a a to-do case, I I really like having a a a to-do list that I put together. I don't mind a list that I put together. I don't mind a list that I put together. I don't mind a lot of things to do as long as I'm the lot of things to do as long as I'm the lot of things to do as long as I'm the one putting them together. But let my one putting them together. But let my one putting them together. But let my publisher call me or let the church call publisher call me or let the church call publisher call me or let the church call me or let somebody call me and say, "We me or let somebody call me and say, "We me or let somebody call me and say, "We need you to do this." And let that be an need you to do this." And let that be an need you to do this." And let that be an addition to something after I already addition to something after I already addition to something after I already had my day all mapped out. I have to had my day all mapped out. I have to had my day all mapped out. I have to earn I'll get a I'll get a irritated. earn I'll get a I'll get a irritated. earn I'll get a I'll get a irritated. I'll get irritated and uh that's that's I'll get irritated and uh that's that's I'll get irritated and uh that's that's when I have to do a little self-t talk. when I have to do a little self-t talk. when I have to do a little self-t talk. I don't like surprises. I like to plan I don't like surprises. I like to plan I don't like surprises. I like to plan everything out. everything out. everything out. You and I have that in common. You and I have that in common. You and I have that in common. Yeah, I don't like surprises. I also Yeah, I don't like surprises. I also Yeah, I don't like surprises. I also hate everything slow. Slow internet, hate everything slow. Slow internet, hate everything slow. Slow internet, slow traffic, slow whatever. I mean, slow traffic, slow whatever. I mean, slow traffic, slow whatever. I mean, God's going to work on that forever. All God's going to work on that forever. All God's going to work on that forever. All right, Max, I got a random question right, Max, I got a random question right, Max, I got a random question before we wrap up. Is it true that you before we wrap up. Is it true that you before we wrap up. Is it true that you were thinking about becoming a lawyer were thinking about becoming a lawyer were thinking about becoming a lawyer before going into ministry?

before going into ministry? before going into ministry? Yeah. Had you asked me uh in in my Yeah. Had you asked me uh in in my Yeah. Had you asked me uh in in my college days, even even after I was college days, even even after I was college days, even even after I was after I became a Christian at the age of after I became a Christian at the age of after I became a Christian at the age of 20, uh had you asked me what you want to 20, uh had you asked me what you want to 20, uh had you asked me what you want to do, I said I would have said I think I'm do, I said I would have said I think I'm do, I said I would have said I think I'm I'm going to go I I put down on pre-law. I'm going to go I I put down on pre-law. I'm going to go I I put down on pre-law. Uh yeah. Yeah. So I I I think that's a Uh yeah. Yeah. So I I I think that's a Uh yeah. Yeah. So I I I think that's a great career. I do. I would I been a great career. I do. I would I been a great career. I do. I would I been a good one. I didn't know you studied law good one. I didn't know you studied law good one. I didn't know you studied law till you just said that a second. till you just said that a second. till you just said that a second. I did. Yeah. Yeah. Went and got called I did. Yeah. Yeah. Went and got called I did. Yeah. Yeah. Went and got called to the bar and everything and then to the bar and everything and then to the bar and everything and then resigned and went into seminary. But resigned and went into seminary. But resigned and went into seminary. But worked for a year at a law firm in worked for a year at a law firm in worked for a year at a law firm in downtown Toronto. You know, and one of downtown Toronto. You know, and one of downtown Toronto. You know, and one of the reasons I'm curious is how whether the reasons I'm curious is how whether the reasons I'm curious is how whether that career interest in your case, do that career interest in your case, do that career interest in your case, do you think that impacted how you think? you think that impacted how you think? you think that impacted how you think? Do you think it impacted your ministry? Do you think it impacted your ministry? Do you think it impacted your ministry? I mean, I think you can trace out what I mean, I think you can trace out what I mean, I think you can trace out what I'm doing now, even the questions I I'm doing now, even the questions I I'm doing now, even the questions I asked. I got trained in asked. I got trained in asked. I got trained in cross-examination. Like, so it's kind of cross-examination. Like, so it's kind of cross-examination. Like, so it's kind of fun. I enjoy it. fun. I enjoy it. fun. I enjoy it. You enjoy it. You enjoy it. You enjoy it. I do enjoy uh research. I I really do. I I do enjoy uh research. I I really do. I I do enjoy uh research. I I really do. I do enjoy study. Uh my favorite days of do enjoy study. Uh my favorite days of do enjoy study. Uh my favorite days of the week are the days that are blocked the week are the days that are blocked the week are the days that are blocked off just to study. I I truly enjoy that.

off just to study. I I truly enjoy that. off just to study. I I truly enjoy that. And And And even at this stage, five decades. even at this stage, five decades. even at this stage, five decades. Very much so. Very much so. Very much so. Very much so. Very much so. Very much so. Really? What keeps that fresh for you? Really? What keeps that fresh for you? Really? What keeps that fresh for you? Well, getting excited about a new idea. Well, getting excited about a new idea. Well, getting excited about a new idea. Um I'm I'm preaching a sermon series Um I'm I'm preaching a sermon series Um I'm I'm preaching a sermon series starting in a few weeks uh that I'm starting in a few weeks uh that I'm starting in a few weeks uh that I'm going to call the only one. and I'm going to call the only one. and I'm going to call the only one. and I'm going to focus on things uh that can be going to focus on things uh that can be going to focus on things uh that can be said about Jesus that can be said about said about Jesus that can be said about said about Jesus that can be said about no one else. He is the only one. And no one else. He is the only one. And no one else. He is the only one. And when that thought came to me, I thought, when that thought came to me, I thought, when that thought came to me, I thought, "Wow, that's going to be fun." You know, "Wow, that's going to be fun." You know, "Wow, that's going to be fun." You know, and so I find myself in uh study of and so I find myself in uh study of and so I find myself in uh study of areas of the life of Jesus that I've areas of the life of Jesus that I've areas of the life of Jesus that I've never studied before. I've never studied never studied before. I've never studied never studied before. I've never studied the pre-incarnate Christ as he appeared the pre-incarnate Christ as he appeared the pre-incarnate Christ as he appeared in the Old Testament, you know, as he in the Old Testament, you know, as he in the Old Testament, you know, as he would make these appearances uh to would make these appearances uh to would make these appearances uh to Abraham or Daniel in the lion's den or Abraham or Daniel in the lion's den or Abraham or Daniel in the lion's den or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abedneo. And so, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abedneo. And so, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abedneo. And so, I'm I I'm working on that. So, that gets I'm I I'm working on that. So, that gets I'm I I'm working on that. So, that gets me excited. Even before creation, I I've me excited. Even before creation, I I've me excited. Even before creation, I I've never preached a sermon on Christ as never preached a sermon on Christ as never preached a sermon on Christ as creator, as the one who created the creator, as the one who created the creator, as the one who created the universe. Um and and so John, yeah, I I universe. Um and and so John, yeah, I I universe. Um and and so John, yeah, I I say all that to say I get excited to say all that to say I get excited to say all that to say I get excited to learn new things. Uh I like to put learn new things. Uh I like to put learn new things. Uh I like to put thoughts together in a tangible way.

thoughts together in a tangible way. thoughts together in a tangible way. That part of ministry I've I've always That part of ministry I've I've always That part of ministry I've I've always liked. And so I I think that's why I'm liked. And so I I think that's why I'm liked. And so I I think that's why I'm enjoying this season of life the most. enjoying this season of life the most. enjoying this season of life the most. You're such a clear communicator. And You're such a clear communicator. And You're such a clear communicator. And the best lawyers are they take all this the best lawyers are they take all this the best lawyers are they take all this case law and they make it simple, case law and they make it simple, case law and they make it simple, right? Which is great. Cool. right? Which is great. Cool. right? Which is great. Cool. Maybe I can still go to law school. Maybe I can still go to law school. Maybe I can still go to law school. Hey, never too late. Hey, never too late. Hey, never too late. Do it online. Max, is there a question or a topic that Max, is there a question or a topic that we should have hit on that I didn't ask we should have hit on that I didn't ask we should have hit on that I didn't ask or we didn't hit on? The only thing I would like to close by The only thing I would like to close by saying is how grateful I am for you, saying is how grateful I am for you, saying is how grateful I am for you, Carrie. Um, not only are you an Carrie. Um, not only are you an Carrie. Um, not only are you an insightful insightful insightful uh source of knowledge and help, but uh source of knowledge and help, but uh source of knowledge and help, but you're just a good guy. Just a good guy. you're just a good guy. Just a good guy. you're just a good guy. Just a good guy. And uh I do hope that we have you. We And uh I do hope that we have you. We And uh I do hope that we have you. We have had many conversations, but they're have had many conversations, but they're have had many conversations, but they're all looking at a screen. We've got to all looking at a screen. We've got to all looking at a screen. We've got to we've got to fix this. we've got to fix this. we've got to fix this. Next time I'm in Texas, we got to hang Next time I'm in Texas, we got to hang Next time I'm in Texas, we got to hang out.

out. out. You truly are a service to the church. You truly are a service to the church. You truly are a service to the church. and thank you for orchestrating these and thank you for orchestrating these and thank you for orchestrating these conversations so we can all listen in. conversations so we can all listen in. conversations so we can all listen in. Well, I really appreciate it. And you Well, I really appreciate it. And you Well, I really appreciate it. And you know what the other thing is? You really know what the other thing is? You really know what the other thing is? You really showed up today. showed up today. showed up today. Uh it's not an easy conversation. I Uh it's not an easy conversation. I Uh it's not an easy conversation. I didn't lob you softballs. And uh you didn't lob you softballs. And uh you didn't lob you softballs. And uh you know, we don't quote solve issues in know, we don't quote solve issues in know, we don't quote solve issues in conversations like this, but you gave me conversations like this, but you gave me conversations like this, but you gave me clarity. You gave me new thoughts. You clarity. You gave me new thoughts. You clarity. You gave me new thoughts. You gave me ideas I'm going to carry gave me ideas I'm going to carry gave me ideas I'm going to carry forward. And you did that because you forward. And you did that because you forward. And you did that because you showed up. You didn't phone it in. You showed up. You didn't phone it in. You showed up. You didn't phone it in. You didn't read off a, you know, book didn't read off a, you know, book didn't read off a, you know, book publisher sheet that somebody created publisher sheet that somebody created publisher sheet that somebody created for you and read your talking points. for you and read your talking points. for you and read your talking points. Like, thank you. And you showed up, not Like, thank you. And you showed up, not Like, thank you. And you showed up, not just for me, but for the tens of just for me, but for the tens of just for me, but for the tens of thousands of listeners who are thousands of listeners who are thousands of listeners who are listening and watching to this. So, I listening and watching to this. So, I listening and watching to this. So, I continue to be amazed at how God is continue to be amazed at how God is continue to be amazed at how God is using you. Prolific barely begins to using you. Prolific barely begins to using you. Prolific barely begins to describe it. You know, Max's new book is describe it. You know, Max's new book is describe it. You know, Max's new book is called Tame Your Thoughts. It's called Tame Your Thoughts. It's called Tame Your Thoughts. It's available absolutely everywhere. I'm available absolutely everywhere. I'm available absolutely everywhere. I'm convinced. Anything else you would say convinced. Anything else you would say convinced. Anything else you would say as far as where people can find you as far as where people can find you as far as where people can find you online or find the book online or online or find the book online or online or find the book online or anything like that as we wrap?

anything like that as we wrap? anything like that as we wrap? Just to put a ribbon on the Gateway Just to put a ribbon on the Gateway Just to put a ribbon on the Gateway thing, Gateway's going to do great. thing, Gateway's going to do great. thing, Gateway's going to do great. They are going to do great. The Lord is They are going to do great. The Lord is They are going to do great. The Lord is blessing the church. There's an energy blessing the church. There's an energy blessing the church. There's an energy in the church. There's a redemptive in the church. There's a redemptive in the church. There's a redemptive quality right now. And so, I'm very quality right now. And so, I'm very quality right now. And so, I'm very encouraged and I think it's going to be encouraged and I think it's going to be encouraged and I think it's going to be a story of great redemption. So, wanted a story of great redemption. So, wanted a story of great redemption. So, wanted to say that. I meant to say it earlier. to say that. I meant to say it earlier. to say that. I meant to say it earlier. Thank you. Uh maxlo.com Thank you. Uh maxlo.com Thank you. Uh maxlo.com is where you can go for anything related is where you can go for anything related is where you can go for anything related to me except for my golf course. to me except for my golf course. to me except for my golf course. That's That's That's And speaking of your thought life, Max, thank you so much. Max, thank you so much. Thank you, my friend.