Why Did Our Church Grow So Fast?

Someone asked me, this was like three, Someone asked me, this was like three, this was right after the transition this was right after the transition this was right after the transition happened, and we were um we were uh happened, and we were um we were uh happened, and we were um we were uh we've just seen incredible growth. It's we've just seen incredible growth. It's we've just seen incredible growth. It's been pretty amazing to watch what God's been pretty amazing to watch what God's been pretty amazing to watch what God's done in the last few years. Um and done in the last few years. Um and done in the last few years. Um and someone asked me over dinner one night, someone asked me over dinner one night, someone asked me over dinner one night, they go, "Why are you growing? Why do they go, "Why are you growing? Why do they go, "Why are you growing? Why do you think LCBC is growing like it is?" you think LCBC is growing like it is?" you think LCBC is growing like it is?" And I had a I I didn't I I I was so And I had a I I didn't I I I was so And I had a I I didn't I I I was so exposed. I didn't have a good answer. exposed. I didn't have a good answer. exposed. I didn't have a good answer. And and that bothered me. And so I went And and that bothered me. And so I went And and that bothered me. And so I went back and I dug in and and by the way, back and I dug in and and by the way, back and I dug in and and by the way, everyone should have an answer to that everyone should have an answer to that everyone should have an answer to that question. Why is God, you know, if your question. Why is God, you know, if your question. Why is God, you know, if your church is growing, why why? And the way church is growing, why why? And the way church is growing, why why? And the way to get to that answer is not to get to that answer is not to get to that answer is not complicated. All you need to do is complicated. All you need to do is complicated. All you need to do is welcome to the Carrie New Hoff welcome to the Carrie New Hoff welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast on YouTube. Hey, I leadership podcast on YouTube. Hey, I leadership podcast on YouTube. Hey, I love if you're a NextGen leader and love if you're a NextGen leader and love if you're a NextGen leader and you're tuning in. A lot of you are you're tuning in. A lot of you are you're tuning in. A lot of you are taking over for legacy pastors, boomers, taking over for legacy pastors, boomers, taking over for legacy pastors, boomers, Gen Xers who have stepped aside, maybe Gen Xers who have stepped aside, maybe Gen Xers who have stepped aside, maybe they founded the church. Jason Mitchell they founded the church. Jason Mitchell they founded the church. Jason Mitchell is one of them and he's leading one of is one of them and he's leading one of is one of them and he's leading one of the largest churches in the country. the largest churches in the country. the largest churches in the country. LCBC in Pennsylvania. We talk about the LCBC in Pennsylvania. We talk about the LCBC in Pennsylvania. We talk about the emotion of succession, how preaching has emotion of succession, how preaching has emotion of succession, how preaching has changed, what it's like to take over changed, what it's like to take over changed, what it's like to take over this huge mega church, and what creates this huge mega church, and what creates this huge mega church, and what creates 280% more likelihood that visitors are 280% more likelihood that visitors are 280% more likelihood that visitors are going to come back. We're going to get going to come back. We're going to get going to come back. We're going to get into all of that. So, we get into into all of that. So, we get into into all of that. So, we get into everything with you today on the everything with you today on the everything with you today on the podcast. I would love for you to like, podcast. I would love for you to like, podcast. I would love for you to like, subscribe, maybe leave a comment to join subscribe, maybe leave a comment to join subscribe, maybe leave a comment to join the conversation. And before I dive in the conversation. And before I dive in the conversation. And before I dive in with Jason, we very carefully select our with Jason, we very carefully select our with Jason, we very carefully select our partners. Have a look. they've got partners. Have a look. they've got partners. Have a look. they've got something cool for you. Then we'll dive something cool for you. Then we'll dive something cool for you. Then we'll dive into the interview. Today's episode is into the interview. Today's episode is into the interview. Today's episode is brought to you by Subsplash. So, you

brought to you by Subsplash. So, you brought to you by Subsplash. So, you know what? I've always thought of summer know what? I've always thought of summer know what? I've always thought of summer as a time to retool, to rethink, to as a time to retool, to rethink, to as a time to retool, to rethink, to reimagine. What if this summer wasn't reimagine. What if this summer wasn't reimagine. What if this summer wasn't just about VBS and mission trips, but just about VBS and mission trips, but just about VBS and mission trips, but about finally engaging and updating the about finally engaging and updating the about finally engaging and updating the way your church engages people? For a way your church engages people? For a way your church engages people? For a lot of pastors, digital tools still feel lot of pastors, digital tools still feel lot of pastors, digital tools still feel like a temporary patch from the like a temporary patch from the like a temporary patch from the pandemic. But the truth is, disciplehip pandemic. But the truth is, disciplehip pandemic. But the truth is, disciplehip now depends on meaningful gospel- now depends on meaningful gospel- now depends on meaningful gospel- centered engagement way outside of centered engagement way outside of centered engagement way outside of Sunday morning. And if you're still Sunday morning. And if you're still Sunday morning. And if you're still juggling multiple platforms, or worse, juggling multiple platforms, or worse, juggling multiple platforms, or worse, relying on big tech to share all of your relying on big tech to share all of your relying on big tech to share all of your content, hey, it's time for a change. content, hey, it's time for a change. content, hey, it's time for a change. With Subsplash, move from scattered to With Subsplash, move from scattered to With Subsplash, move from scattered to streamlined. From media, giving, apps, streamlined. From media, giving, apps, streamlined. From media, giving, apps, messaging, event management, all in one messaging, event management, all in one messaging, event management, all in one platform built for the church, built for platform built for the church, built for platform built for the church, built for your church. Because every day you wait, your church. Because every day you wait, your church. Because every day you wait, families scroll past your content, new families scroll past your content, new families scroll past your content, new visitors bounce off your website, uh, visitors bounce off your website, uh, visitors bounce off your website, uh, which are probably outdated, and your which are probably outdated, and your which are probably outdated, and your community misses moments to connect with community misses moments to connect with community misses moments to connect with Jesus. So, don't just survive the summer Jesus. So, don't just survive the summer Jesus. So, don't just survive the summer slump. Use it to simplify, upgrade, and slump. Use it to simplify, upgrade, and slump. Use it to simplify, upgrade, and reignite your ministry for all the reignite your ministry for all the reignite your ministry for all the seasons ahead. Go to subsplash.com.

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how you do it. Create a free account. how you do it. Create a free account. It's pretty simple. Click the link in It's pretty simple. Click the link in It's pretty simple. Click the link in the description to this episode or visit the description to this episode or visit the description to this episode or visit the art of the art of the art of leadershipacademy.com. Couple clicks, leadershipacademy.com. Couple clicks, leadershipacademy.com. Couple clicks, you're in. It's free. Look forward to you're in. It's free. Look forward to you're in. It's free. Look forward to seeing you inside. Jason, welcome. Good seeing you inside. Jason, welcome. Good seeing you inside. Jason, welcome. Good to have you. It's great to be with you, to have you. It's great to be with you, to have you. It's great to be with you, Carrie. It's uh I every time we've Carrie. It's uh I every time we've Carrie. It's uh I every time we've gotten a chance to interact, I've uh gotten a chance to interact, I've uh gotten a chance to interact, I've uh I've so enjoyed it and so uh very very I've so enjoyed it and so uh very very I've so enjoyed it and so uh very very grateful to be with you. Well, you know, grateful to be with you. Well, you know, grateful to be with you. Well, you know, you got into leadership like you started you got into leadership like you started you got into leadership like you started on staff. I think you were how old were on staff. I think you were how old were on staff. I think you were how old were you? 23 when you started at LCBC. Yeah, you? 23 when you started at LCBC. Yeah, you? 23 when you started at LCBC. Yeah, 23 years old. Came up here, moved up uh 23 years old. Came up here, moved up uh 23 years old. Came up here, moved up uh to Pennsylvania, Jenny and I, from deep to Pennsylvania, Jenny and I, from deep to Pennsylvania, Jenny and I, from deep south. We were in Georgia at the time. south. We were in Georgia at the time. south. We were in Georgia at the time. And uh we had we had never lived outside And uh we had we had never lived outside And uh we had we had never lived outside of the South. And uh sort of our image of the South. And uh sort of our image of the South. And uh sort of our image of Pennsylvania was pretty much the of Pennsylvania was pretty much the of Pennsylvania was pretty much the Rocky movies. That's all we knew. And so Rocky movies. That's all we knew. And so Rocky movies. That's all we knew. And so we we thought Pennsylvania was one we we thought Pennsylvania was one we we thought Pennsylvania was one gigantic city. Uh you know, just gigantic city. Uh you know, just gigantic city. Uh you know, just Philadelphia. Philadelphia. Philadelphia. Yeah. So, uh, uh, they came up here and Yeah. So, uh, uh, they came up here and Yeah. So, uh, uh, they came up here and and obviously we're shocked at just how and obviously we're shocked at just how and obviously we're shocked at just how incredible the the culture is up here in incredible the the culture is up here in incredible the the culture is up here in Pennsylvania and beautiful and the Pennsylvania and beautiful and the Pennsylvania and beautiful and the people and all that and we just fell in people and all that and we just fell in people and all that and we just fell in love and fell in love obviously with the love and fell in love obviously with the love and fell in love obviously with the fell in love with Amish culture or what?

fell in love with Amish culture or what? fell in love with Amish culture or what? Well, there Well, we're based in Lanster Well, there Well, we're based in Lanster Well, there Well, we're based in Lanster County and so Langster County it's like County and so Langster County it's like County and so Langster County it's like a lot of Amish. It there are some Amish a lot of Amish. It there are some Amish a lot of Amish. It there are some Amish here. Yeah. So, it's a it's a very here. Yeah. So, it's a it's a very here. Yeah. So, it's a it's a very interesting Lanster County in particular interesting Lanster County in particular interesting Lanster County in particular is kind of very diverse culturally is kind of very diverse culturally is kind of very diverse culturally because you do have um you know the because you do have um you know the because you do have um you know the Amish and then but you've got a real Amish and then but you've got a real Amish and then but you've got a real burgeoning sort of arts community down burgeoning sort of arts community down burgeoning sort of arts community down in the the city of Lancaster and um in the the city of Lancaster and um in the the city of Lancaster and um agriculture is big here and also health agriculture is big here and also health agriculture is big here and also health and different industries. So, it's a and different industries. So, it's a and different industries. So, it's a it's a very eclectic kind of thing which it's a very eclectic kind of thing which it's a very eclectic kind of thing which we would have never known had we not we would have never known had we not we would have never known had we not come up here. So, it was it's it was fun come up here. So, it was it's it was fun come up here. So, it was it's it was fun 23 years ago. Yeah. So, I've been up 23 years ago. Yeah. So, I've been up 23 years ago. Yeah. So, I've been up here 23 years now. So, um, why did you here 23 years now. So, um, why did you here 23 years now. So, um, why did you pick Pennsylvania, particularly pick Pennsylvania, particularly pick Pennsylvania, particularly Lancaster at 23? It's kind of a random Lancaster at 23? It's kind of a random Lancaster at 23? It's kind of a random choice, right? It was a very random choice, right? It was a very random choice, right? It was a very random choice. Um, it it honestly had to do choice. Um, it it honestly had to do choice. Um, it it honestly had to do with um Jenny and I, we had been we had with um Jenny and I, we had been we had with um Jenny and I, we had been we had finished up college and um I knew that finished up college and um I knew that finished up college and um I knew that God was leading my heart to be in God was leading my heart to be in God was leading my heart to be in vocational ministry. And um we had seen, vocational ministry. And um we had seen, vocational ministry. And um we had seen, we were doing student ministry at the we were doing student ministry at the we were doing student ministry at the time down in Georgia. And we had seen time down in Georgia. And we had seen time down in Georgia. And we had seen and tasted what it felt like to be a and tasted what it felt like to be a and tasted what it felt like to be a part of a a church that was reaching and part of a a church that was reaching and part of a a church that was reaching and particularly with student ministry that particularly with student ministry that particularly with student ministry that was reaching kids who were broken and was reaching kids who were broken and was reaching kids who were broken and you didn't have to dress the part, look you didn't have to dress the part, look you didn't have to dress the part, look the part, play the part to be a part of the part, play the part to be a part of the part, play the part to be a part of what we were doing. And they were coming what we were doing. And they were coming what we were doing. And they were coming in and finding hope in in Jesus. And um in and finding hope in in Jesus. And um in and finding hope in in Jesus. And um we wanted to be a part of a church. And we wanted to be a part of a church. And we wanted to be a part of a church. And this is what happens a lot of times at this is what happens a lot of times at this is what happens a lot of times at churches where the student ministry is churches where the student ministry is churches where the student ministry is kind of doing that, but the larger kind of doing that, but the larger kind of doing that, but the larger church isn't willing. There's kind of a church isn't willing. There's kind of a church isn't willing. There's kind of a gap between those two things. And that gap between those two things. And that gap between those two things. And that was kind of the the the what we were was kind of the the the what we were was kind of the the the what we were experiencing as well. And so we knew we experiencing as well. And so we knew we experiencing as well. And so we knew we wanted to be a part of a church that was

wanted to be a part of a church that was wanted to be a part of a church that was putting their money where their mouth putting their money where their mouth putting their money where their mouth was as far as reaching people who were was as far as reaching people who were was as far as reaching people who were far from God. And so anyways, all that far from God. And so anyways, all that far from God. And so anyways, all that to say, um we we just knew we weren't to say, um we we just knew we weren't to say, um we we just knew we weren't seeing a lot of opportunities down where seeing a lot of opportunities down where seeing a lot of opportunities down where we were in that part of Georgia, uh down we were in that part of Georgia, uh down we were in that part of Georgia, uh down south. Now, this was 25 years ago. Um south. Now, this was 25 years ago. Um south. Now, this was 25 years ago. Um you know, almost 25 years ago, so there you know, almost 25 years ago, so there you know, almost 25 years ago, so there wasn't it's it's very different today, wasn't it's it's very different today, wasn't it's it's very different today, the church landscape. Um, but back then the church landscape. Um, but back then the church landscape. Um, but back then it was it just it was a bunch of I don't it was it just it was a bunch of I don't it was it just it was a bunch of I don't know religious places that were meeting know religious places that were meeting know religious places that were meeting in the needs of religious people and at in the needs of religious people and at in the needs of religious people and at least in our area and so we weren't least in our area and so we weren't least in our area and so we weren't going to settle for that. And um I had a going to settle for that. And um I had a going to settle for that. And um I had a mentor in college his name was Doug mentor in college his name was Doug mentor in college his name was Doug White and uh Doug had a connection to White and uh Doug had a connection to White and uh Doug had a connection to LCBC. Um and so he uh which which at LCBC. Um and so he uh which which at LCBC. Um and so he uh which which at that point stood for Lancaster County that point stood for Lancaster County that point stood for Lancaster County Bible Church. So the acronym Lanster Bible Church. So the acronym Lanster Bible Church. So the acronym Lanster County Bible Church, it stands for County Bible Church, it stands for County Bible Church, it stands for something different today which we can something different today which we can something different today which we can talk about in a second. Um, but Doug talk about in a second. Um, but Doug talk about in a second. Um, but Doug handed me a packet of information about handed me a packet of information about handed me a packet of information about this church and he he knew our heart and this church and he he knew our heart and this church and he he knew our heart and he's like, "This church is doing it. he's like, "This church is doing it. he's like, "This church is doing it. This church is reaching people." Yeah. This church is reaching people." Yeah. This church is reaching people." Yeah. He and so we And they were one location He and so we And they were one location He and so we And they were one location at the time when you were one location.

at the time when you were one location. at the time when you were one location. So this would have been 2002. And so So this would have been 2002. And so So this would have been 2002. And so even the multi-sight movement was very even the multi-sight movement was very even the multi-sight movement was very very very new. I think maybe only one or very very new. I think maybe only one or very very new. I think maybe only one or two at that point were even kind of two at that point were even kind of two at that point were even kind of diving into that. So um, so yeah, that diving into that. So um, so yeah, that diving into that. So um, so yeah, that was that wasn't even on in in my head. I was that wasn't even on in in my head. I was that wasn't even on in in my head. I hadn't even I hadn't even heard of a hadn't even I hadn't even heard of a hadn't even I hadn't even heard of a multi-sight church uh in 2002. So, well, multi-sight church uh in 2002. So, well, multi-sight church uh in 2002. So, well, and you have a lot of young leaders and you have a lot of young leaders and you have a lot of young leaders listening. It was probably I mean, maybe listening. It was probably I mean, maybe listening. It was probably I mean, maybe it was obvious, but I'm guessing it was it was obvious, but I'm guessing it was it was obvious, but I'm guessing it was not very obvious at 23 that one day you not very obvious at 23 that one day you not very obvious at 23 that one day you would be the lead pastor. Is that fair? would be the lead pastor. Is that fair? would be the lead pastor. Is that fair? No. No, not at all. What was obvious was No. No, not at all. What was obvious was No. No, not at all. What was obvious was I want to reach people. I I I I felt um I want to reach people. I I I I felt um I want to reach people. I I I I felt um compelled and you know to to reach compelled and you know to to reach compelled and you know to to reach people. One of the things I feel like people. One of the things I feel like people. One of the things I feel like I've got to always do, Carrie, with our I've got to always do, Carrie, with our I've got to always do, Carrie, with our staff even is remind them of what got staff even is remind them of what got staff even is remind them of what got them into this thing in the first place. them into this thing in the first place. them into this thing in the first place. And it's so easy when you're growing and And it's so easy when you're growing and And it's so easy when you're growing and you got a lot more zeros than you used you got a lot more zeros than you used you got a lot more zeros than you used to have that it becomes about that and to have that it becomes about that and to have that it becomes about that and it becomes about growth and it becomes it becomes about growth and it becomes it becomes about growth and it becomes about, you know, the numbers and all about, you know, the numbers and all about, you know, the numbers and all that. And if you're not careful, you that. And if you're not careful, you that. And if you're not careful, you forget it. It was never about that. I forget it. It was never about that. I forget it. It was never about that. I got into this because I worked a summer got into this because I worked a summer got into this because I worked a summer camp down in Florida and um my whole camp down in Florida and um my whole camp down in Florida and um my whole world got changed when I led a 10-minute world got changed when I led a 10-minute world got changed when I led a 10-minute devotional for a group home of uh kids devotional for a group home of uh kids devotional for a group home of uh kids who were waiting to get placed into who were waiting to get placed into who were waiting to get placed into adoption. And um I loved that adoption. And um I loved that adoption. And um I loved that devotional. I'd never done that before.

devotional. I'd never done that before. devotional. I'd never done that before. And I left leading that 10-minute And I left leading that 10-minute And I left leading that 10-minute devotional. I studied like five hours devotional. I studied like five hours devotional. I studied like five hours for it, you know? I mean, I was it was for it, you know? I mean, I was it was for it, you know? I mean, I was it was like so intense. And uh but I left that like so intense. And uh but I left that like so intense. And uh but I left that and go, man, I want to do that the rest and go, man, I want to do that the rest and go, man, I want to do that the rest of my life. And that summer at at camp, of my life. And that summer at at camp, of my life. And that summer at at camp, there was a kid named John who gave his there was a kid named John who gave his there was a kid named John who gave his life to Christ. And John and I continued life to Christ. And John and I continued life to Christ. And John and I continued to stay in touch and got him plugged to stay in touch and got him plugged to stay in touch and got him plugged into a church and he started growing. into a church and he started growing. into a church and he started growing. John's why I got in this. And it it John's why I got in this. And it it John's why I got in this. And it it wasn't about leading a church. It wasn't wasn't about leading a church. It wasn't wasn't about leading a church. It wasn't about a big church. It wasn't about any about a big church. It wasn't about any about a big church. It wasn't about any of that. It was about John and I just of that. It was about John and I just of that. It was about John and I just wanted to see more of that. And um so wanted to see more of that. And um so wanted to see more of that. And um so yeah, so I I I think that that was yeah, so I I I think that that was yeah, so I I I think that that was always the burden I felt. Um obviously always the burden I felt. Um obviously always the burden I felt. Um obviously uh if God continues to do that, you're uh if God continues to do that, you're uh if God continues to do that, you're going to see growth and uh but but that going to see growth and uh but but that going to see growth and uh but but that was never the point. It was for one more was never the point. It was for one more was never the point. It was for one more John for me. John for me. John for me. You know, stepping into leadership and You know, stepping into leadership and You know, stepping into leadership and it was student ministry when you were it was student ministry when you were it was student ministry when you were 23. the 20s, your 20s, and we have a lot 23. the 20s, your 20s, and we have a lot 23. the 20s, your 20s, and we have a lot of young leaders listening, is a really of young leaders listening, is a really of young leaders listening, is a really pivotal decade. I think I remember very pivotal decade. I think I remember very pivotal decade. I think I remember very clearly when I was 23. I was still in clearly when I was 23. I was still in clearly when I was 23. I was still in school. I was in school till I was school. I was in school till I was school. I was in school till I was almost 30 cuz law, theology, right, blah almost 30 cuz law, theology, right, blah almost 30 cuz law, theology, right, blah blah blah just goes on and on. But, uh, blah blah just goes on and on. But, uh, blah blah just goes on and on. But, uh, I remember those years very almost like I remember those years very almost like I remember those years very almost like they were happening in real time. What they were happening in real time. What they were happening in real time. What were some of the lessons that you were some of the lessons that you were some of the lessons that you learned in your 20s that prepared you learned in your 20s that prepared you learned in your 20s that prepared you for where you are now?

for where you are now? for where you are now? Well, I think, you know, to me the 20s Well, I think, you know, to me the 20s Well, I think, you know, to me the 20s are such incredibly are such incredibly are such incredibly um I I love the 20s because you've got um I I love the 20s because you've got um I I love the 20s because you've got the energy. You got about as much energy the energy. You got about as much energy the energy. You got about as much energy energy as you ever are ever going to energy as you ever are ever going to energy as you ever are ever going to have. Almost too much. Yeah. Almost too have. Almost too much. Yeah. Almost too have. Almost too much. Yeah. Almost too much. Um don't know quite what to do much. Um don't know quite what to do much. Um don't know quite what to do with it. You're incredibly idealistic. with it. You're incredibly idealistic. with it. You're incredibly idealistic. Um and I think that's a positive. Um I Um and I think that's a positive. Um I Um and I think that's a positive. Um I love that. I love that in our 20s love that. I love that in our 20s love that. I love that in our 20s something staff. Um and um and there's something staff. Um and um and there's something staff. Um and um and there's an aspect of it where your your an aspect of it where your your an aspect of it where your your inexperience causes you to take risk and inexperience causes you to take risk and inexperience causes you to take risk and I I I feel like in the 20s there was I I I feel like in the 20s there was I I I feel like in the 20s there was just there was a sense of optimism with just there was a sense of optimism with just there was a sense of optimism with the teams that we were leading and the the teams that we were leading and the the teams that we were leading and the other 20somes that I was leading with other 20somes that I was leading with other 20somes that I was leading with that hey why not? It's always a why not? that hey why not? It's always a why not? that hey why not? It's always a why not? Why couldn't we? And I I actually think Why couldn't we? And I I actually think Why couldn't we? And I I actually think that if you can carry that spirit over that if you can carry that spirit over that if you can carry that spirit over with with obviously more wisdom as you with with obviously more wisdom as you with with obviously more wisdom as you advance and and as you get older and advance and and as you get older and advance and and as you get older and you've kind of taken your knocks a you've kind of taken your knocks a you've kind of taken your knocks a little bit and and you can add some of little bit and and you can add some of little bit and and you can add some of that in, but you you keep that that in, but you you keep that that in, but you you keep that entrepreneurial spirit, you keep that entrepreneurial spirit, you keep that entrepreneurial spirit, you keep that zeal, you keep that the passion that the zeal, you keep that the passion that the zeal, you keep that the passion that the that 20s have. Um and so I just felt that 20s have. Um and so I just felt that 20s have. Um and so I just felt like I was in an environment in my 20s, like I was in an environment in my 20s, like I was in an environment in my 20s, the thing that prepared me was I was the thing that prepared me was I was the thing that prepared me was I was given opportunities to take risk. I was given opportunities to take risk. I was given opportunities to take risk. I was given opportunities um to do things that given opportunities um to do things that given opportunities um to do things that hadn't been tried before in student hadn't been tried before in student hadn't been tried before in student ministry, you know, um here at the time.

ministry, you know, um here at the time. ministry, you know, um here at the time. And um and I don't know, there were And um and I don't know, there were And um and I don't know, there were there was something about learning to there was something about learning to there was something about learning to fail in your 20s um that I think serves fail in your 20s um that I think serves fail in your 20s um that I think serves you really well as you continue to go um you really well as you continue to go um you really well as you continue to go um and advance in leadership and um and and and advance in leadership and um and and and advance in leadership and um and and just the opportunities that I was given just the opportunities that I was given just the opportunities that I was given to um take risk. That was a big that was to um take risk. That was a big that was to um take risk. That was a big that was a big deal for me. Um, you know, even a big deal for me. Um, you know, even a big deal for me. Um, you know, even now, again, this just happened today now, again, this just happened today now, again, this just happened today where we had someone um someone on our where we had someone um someone on our where we had someone um someone on our staff, there was an issue, something staff, there was an issue, something staff, there was an issue, something they they posted, um, you know, this is they they posted, um, you know, this is they they posted, um, you know, this is things we got to deal with now, and it things we got to deal with now, and it things we got to deal with now, and it just felt off. Well, this this thing just felt off. Well, this this thing just felt off. Well, this this thing that got posted, um, their supervisor is that got posted, um, their supervisor is that got posted, um, their supervisor is a very young leader in our organization, a very young leader in our organization, a very young leader in our organization, young younger than the person person who young younger than the person person who young younger than the person person who was doing the thing. and our executive was doing the thing. and our executive was doing the thing. and our executive team. We were talking with some of our team. We were talking with some of our team. We were talking with some of our leadership team and and they were going leadership team and and they were going leadership team and and they were going to sweep in and address this and I kind to sweep in and address this and I kind to sweep in and address this and I kind of just told them put the brakes on it. of just told them put the brakes on it. of just told them put the brakes on it. I was like let that supervisor who's I was like let that supervisor who's I was like let that supervisor who's late 20s they let them address this. late 20s they let them address this. late 20s they let them address this. This is an opportunity and I think what This is an opportunity and I think what This is an opportunity and I think what happens is the larger you grow the more happens is the larger you grow the more happens is the larger you grow the more it feels at stake and there probably and it feels at stake and there probably and it feels at stake and there probably and there is and the more risk you know there is and the more risk you know there is and the more risk you know averse you tend to become but we miss averse you tend to become but we miss averse you tend to become but we miss moments of giving young 20somes leaders moments of giving young 20somes leaders moments of giving young 20somes leaders opportunities to fail and have that kind opportunities to fail and have that kind opportunities to fail and have that kind of conver that leadership conversation of conver that leadership conversation of conver that leadership conversation that she needed to have um because it's that she needed to have um because it's that she needed to have um because it's just easier we we've been there we've just easier we we've been there we've just easier we we've been there we've done that we've got the experience and done that we've got the experience and done that we've got the experience and so you've got to instead of going and so you've got to instead of going and so you've got to instead of going and doing it role play with that young 20s doing it role play with that young 20s doing it role play with that young 20s something leader then let them go do it something leader then let them go do it something leader then let them go do it and if They fail at it. They fail at it, and if They fail at it. They fail at it, and if They fail at it. They fail at it, but that's how they grow. And I was just but that's how they grow. And I was just but that's how they grow. And I was just given a ton of opportunities like that.

given a ton of opportunities like that. given a ton of opportunities like that. Um, uh, and just kind of like, hey, Um, uh, and just kind of like, hey, Um, uh, and just kind of like, hey, we're going to throw you in the water. we're going to throw you in the water. we're going to throw you in the water. Figure out how to swim here. I want to Figure out how to swim here. I want to Figure out how to swim here. I want to drill down on that a little bit more drill down on that a little bit more drill down on that a little bit more because I feel like when I was in my because I feel like when I was in my because I feel like when I was in my 20s, I was given ridiculous amounts of 20s, I was given ridiculous amounts of 20s, I was given ridiculous amounts of freedom and responsibility, freedom and responsibility, freedom and responsibility, including stupid amounts of freedom to including stupid amounts of freedom to including stupid amounts of freedom to fail. Um, that was true in law. They fail. Um, that was true in law. They fail. Um, that was true in law. They kind of threw me into the deep end for kind of threw me into the deep end for kind of threw me into the deep end for the year I spent there. That was true the year I spent there. That was true the year I spent there. That was true when I started out in ministry. And the when I started out in ministry. And the when I started out in ministry. And the older I get, the more I realize, wow, older I get, the more I realize, wow, older I get, the more I realize, wow, they really trusted me. And I love your they really trusted me. And I love your they really trusted me. And I love your example, but I'm not sure a lot of young example, but I'm not sure a lot of young example, but I'm not sure a lot of young leaders get that kind of autonomy today. leaders get that kind of autonomy today. leaders get that kind of autonomy today. I think you're right. If you're larger, I think you're right. If you're larger, I think you're right. If you're larger, we're now all connected. And so you got we're now all connected. And so you got we're now all connected. And so you got some big brother, big sister looking some big brother, big sister looking some big brother, big sister looking over your shoulder going, "Oh, I'll over your shoulder going, "Oh, I'll over your shoulder going, "Oh, I'll handle that for you. Let me give you handle that for you. Let me give you handle that for you. Let me give you advice." I mean, do you see that trend? advice." I mean, do you see that trend? advice." I mean, do you see that trend? And and the second part of that is how And and the second part of that is how And and the second part of that is how are you making sure you know as a leader are you making sure you know as a leader are you making sure you know as a leader in your 40s now that you are giving in your 40s now that you are giving in your 40s now that you are giving proper proper proper um freedom to leaders in their 20s as um freedom to leaders in their 20s as um freedom to leaders in their 20s as per your example? Well, it's a it's a per your example? Well, it's a it's a per your example? Well, it's a it's a discipline. I I think it's a discipline.

discipline. I I think it's a discipline. discipline. I I think it's a discipline. It doesn't come naturally because it is It doesn't come naturally because it is It doesn't come naturally because it is easier and it's more efficient to to easier and it's more efficient to to easier and it's more efficient to to step in and just to do some of those step in and just to do some of those step in and just to do some of those things. And you and you you don't want things. And you and you you don't want things. And you and you you don't want to be stupid either. Like there has been to be stupid either. Like there has been to be stupid either. Like there has been a dumb tax paid on certain things. And a dumb tax paid on certain things. And a dumb tax paid on certain things. And so I don't want And you're not going to so I don't want And you're not going to so I don't want And you're not going to take the whole church down over No, no, take the whole church down over No, no, take the whole church down over No, no, no, no, no. So there's nuance to it. no, no, no. So there's nuance to it. no, no, no. So there's nuance to it. There's there's context to it. Um There's there's context to it. Um There's there's context to it. Um however, um I think you're right like however, um I think you're right like however, um I think you're right like the things that you're willing uh you the things that you're willing uh you the things that you're willing uh you know, the things that I was given, know, the things that I was given, know, the things that I was given, opportunities I was given, I challenge opportunities I was given, I challenge opportunities I was given, I challenge our staffs with this sometimes like we our staffs with this sometimes like we our staffs with this sometimes like we still have to give those opportunity still have to give those opportunity still have to give those opportunity even though it feels like there's more even though it feels like there's more even though it feels like there's more at risk. Um and actually to be honest we at risk. Um and actually to be honest we at risk. Um and actually to be honest we can do that in a more in a safer way now can do that in a more in a safer way now can do that in a more in a safer way now because we do have way more safeguards because we do have way more safeguards because we do have way more safeguards than we did even even then than we did even even then than we did even even then organizationally speaking. So um so to organizationally speaking. So um so to organizationally speaking. So um so to me it's a it's it's a discipline and a me it's a it's it's a discipline and a me it's a it's it's a discipline and a it's values-based. The reason why it it's values-based. The reason why it it's values-based. The reason why it matters to me is because there's a value matters to me is because there's a value matters to me is because there's a value of leadership development within our of leadership development within our of leadership development within our culture. I I think that I carry pretty culture. I I think that I carry pretty culture. I I think that I carry pretty strongly. It's one of our we've got five strongly. It's one of our we've got five strongly. It's one of our we've got five values that we live and die by. And one values that we live and die by. And one values that we live and die by. And one of those is to empower and activate of those is to empower and activate of those is to empower and activate people. we talk about all the time and people. we talk about all the time and people. we talk about all the time and those are two very intentional words.

those are two very intentional words. those are two very intentional words. Empowerment is to give them the right Empowerment is to give them the right Empowerment is to give them the right tools and give them what they need to tools and give them what they need to tools and give them what they need to thrive. Activating them is putting them thrive. Activating them is putting them thrive. Activating them is putting them in the right positions to win. And so in the right positions to win. And so in the right positions to win. And so you can empower someone, not put them in you can empower someone, not put them in you can empower someone, not put them in the right positions to win. You can put the right positions to win. You can put the right positions to win. You can put them in positions to win, but you didn't them in positions to win, but you didn't them in positions to win, but you didn't empower them and both are going to fail. empower them and both are going to fail. empower them and both are going to fail. And so we talk about that all the time. And so we talk about that all the time. And so we talk about that all the time. It's a posture. And if it's a posture, It's a posture. And if it's a posture, It's a posture. And if it's a posture, that means we've got to always be that means we've got to always be that means we've got to always be thinking. It's just always thinking, thinking. It's just always thinking, thinking. It's just always thinking, okay, is this a development opportunity? okay, is this a development opportunity? okay, is this a development opportunity? So again, the role that I need to take So again, the role that I need to take So again, the role that I need to take now is not to not be involved. Like I'm now is not to not be involved. Like I'm now is not to not be involved. Like I'm still going to be involved. The way I'm still going to be involved. The way I'm still going to be involved. The way I'm going to be involved though is not to go going to be involved though is not to go going to be involved though is not to go have the conversation, but to role play have the conversation, but to role play have the conversation, but to role play with that young staff before she has the with that young staff before she has the with that young staff before she has the conversation. So that's my greatest conversation. So that's my greatest conversation. So that's my greatest contribution to her now. Um I could go contribution to her now. Um I could go contribution to her now. Um I could go do the have have the conversation and it do the have have the conversation and it do the have have the conversation and it would be a lot quicker. It'd be done would be a lot quicker. It'd be done would be a lot quicker. It'd be done sooner and and I've done it. That just sooner and and I've done it. That just sooner and and I've done it. That just wouldn't help. that wouldn't create a wouldn't help. that wouldn't create a wouldn't help. that wouldn't create a culture that we a church and a culture that we a church and a culture that we a church and a leadership culture that we're looking to leadership culture that we're looking to leadership culture that we're looking to create to where we truly have empowered create to where we truly have empowered create to where we truly have empowered and activated all the way down through and activated all the way down through and activated all the way down through the organization. You know, you hinted the organization. You know, you hinted the organization. You know, you hinted at this earlier. You said when you add a at this earlier. You said when you add a at this earlier. You said when you add a lot more zeros, it becomes a little more lot more zeros, it becomes a little more lot more zeros, it becomes a little more taxing. Success makes you conservative.

taxing. Success makes you conservative. taxing. Success makes you conservative. How now that you're in that senior seat? How now that you're in that senior seat? How now that you're in that senior seat? How have you carried that sense of How have you carried that sense of How have you carried that sense of adventure and risktaking with you from adventure and risktaking with you from adventure and risktaking with you from your 20s into your 40s and how has that your 20s into your 40s and how has that your 20s into your 40s and how has that possibly changed? possibly changed? possibly changed? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think you do Yeah, I mean, you know, I think you do Yeah, I mean, you know, I think you do you you you there's something to be said you you you there's something to be said you you you there's something to be said about I mean, there is a lot at stake, about I mean, there is a lot at stake, about I mean, there is a lot at stake, so I'm not trying to minimize that. Um, so I'm not trying to minimize that. Um, so I'm not trying to minimize that. Um, and I think we're foolish if we treat and I think we're foolish if we treat and I think we're foolish if we treat I'm not talking about being flippant. So I'm not talking about being flippant. So I'm not talking about being flippant. So that's that's that's different. I think that's that's that's different. I think that's that's that's different. I think flipping is um, hey, it doesn't matter. flipping is um, hey, it doesn't matter. flipping is um, hey, it doesn't matter. It matters a lot. Um, I I think at the It matters a lot. Um, I I think at the It matters a lot. Um, I I think at the end of the day, you know, how I'm trying end of the day, you know, how I'm trying end of the day, you know, how I'm trying to carry that over right now is to to carry that over right now is to to carry that over right now is to take take risk that I know we're not take take risk that I know we're not take take risk that I know we're not what did you say a moment ago that what did you say a moment ago that what did you say a moment ago that you're not betting the farm on you're not betting the farm on you're not betting the farm on everything. You're not putting the everything. You're not putting the everything. You're not putting the mission at risk. Um, but we're going to, mission at risk. Um, but we're going to, mission at risk. Um, but we're going to, you know, there's there's two types of you know, there's there's two types of you know, there's there's two types of innovation. Um, there's probably more, innovation. Um, there's probably more, innovation. Um, there's probably more, but two two fundamental types of but two two fundamental types of but two two fundamental types of innovation. One is frontier innovation, innovation. One is frontier innovation, innovation. One is frontier innovation, and that is something that's never been and that is something that's never been and that is something that's never been done before. The other is adjacent done before. The other is adjacent done before. The other is adjacent innovation, and adjacent innovation is innovation, and adjacent innovation is innovation, and adjacent innovation is taking something that's been done and taking something that's been done and taking something that's been done and making it better. I I would say the making it better. I I would say the making it better. I I would say the majority of innovation happens for for majority of innovation happens for for majority of innovation happens for for most people in that adjacent innovation most people in that adjacent innovation most people in that adjacent innovation space. I mean even think about Apple space. I mean even think about Apple space. I mean even think about Apple they didn't invent the phone but they they didn't invent the phone but they they didn't invent the phone but they did they took a existing technology and did they took a existing technology and did they took a existing technology and made it better. So even that's you know made it better. So even that's you know made it better. So even that's you know we think about them was one of the most we think about them was one of the most we think about them was one of the most innovative companies in the world and

innovative companies in the world and innovative companies in the world and they are but it's adjacent innovation. I they are but it's adjacent innovation. I they are but it's adjacent innovation. I think one of the things from a an think one of the things from a an think one of the things from a an innovation standpoint that we need to innovation standpoint that we need to innovation standpoint that we need to release oursel leaders should release release oursel leaders should release release oursel leaders should release the pressure is we don't have to come up the pressure is we don't have to come up the pressure is we don't have to come up with something brand new all the time. with something brand new all the time. with something brand new all the time. I'm not even sure I'm really good at I'm not even sure I'm really good at I'm not even sure I'm really good at that. Um but I want to take what we know that. Um but I want to take what we know that. Um but I want to take what we know we do and make it better. And so that's we do and make it better. And so that's we do and make it better. And so that's I find that's what I feel like right now I find that's what I feel like right now I find that's what I feel like right now we where I contribute in innovative we where I contribute in innovative we where I contribute in innovative thoughts and push us to be innovative is thoughts and push us to be innovative is thoughts and push us to be innovative is it's not recreating the wheel. It's it's not recreating the wheel. It's it's not recreating the wheel. It's taking the wheel and figuring out a way taking the wheel and figuring out a way taking the wheel and figuring out a way to make it roll better um in a sense. Um to make it roll better um in a sense. Um to make it roll better um in a sense. Um and so those are the kinds of things I'm and so those are the kinds of things I'm and so those are the kinds of things I'm always pushing. How do we do it better? always pushing. How do we do it better? always pushing. How do we do it better? How do we do it better? How do we do it How do we do it better? How do we do it How do we do it better? How do we do it better? What's 1% better we can get in better? What's 1% better we can get in better? What's 1% better we can get in that area? What's 1% better um that we that area? What's 1% better um that we that area? What's 1% better um that we can get in that area? So, I feel like can get in that area? So, I feel like can get in that area? So, I feel like I'm just trying to lead the way of I'm just trying to lead the way of I'm just trying to lead the way of keeping that in front of people to keep keeping that in front of people to keep keeping that in front of people to keep innovating, keep doing what we do, keep innovating, keep doing what we do, keep innovating, keep doing what we do, keep tweaking um as we go. One of your roles tweaking um as we go. One of your roles tweaking um as we go. One of your roles over the years, I think almost 25 years, over the years, I think almost 25 years, over the years, I think almost 25 years, is you've been a pretty consistent is you've been a pretty consistent is you've been a pretty consistent preacher. How has preaching changed over preacher. How has preaching changed over preacher. How has preaching changed over your lifetime? your lifetime? your lifetime? Well, I I'll tell you what I'm seeing Well, I I'll tell you what I'm seeing Well, I I'll tell you what I'm seeing right now and what I'm seeing here in right now and what I'm seeing here in right now and what I'm seeing here in our context and even as I talk to to our context and even as I talk to to our context and even as I talk to to people around the country, I I think people around the country, I I think people around the country, I I think it's happening uh much broader than just it's happening uh much broader than just it's happening uh much broader than just where I'm at right now. There seems to where I'm at right now. There seems to where I'm at right now. There seems to be I don't have a good word for it. Um be I don't have a good word for it. Um be I don't have a good word for it. Um but there seems to be an openness in but there seems to be an openness in but there seems to be an openness in people um a a sort of a renewed sense of people um a a sort of a renewed sense of people um a a sort of a renewed sense of openness in people culturally even to openness in people culturally even to openness in people culturally even to talking about spiritual things to talking about spiritual things to talking about spiritual things to church. And church. And church. And um so here's the way I've been talking

um so here's the way I've been talking um so here's the way I've been talking about it recently. When people come into about it recently. When people come into about it recently. When people come into our church now, uh when people come to our church now, uh when people come to our church now, uh when people come to LCBC, they've all they are there because LCBC, they've all they are there because LCBC, they've all they are there because they know why they want to be there and they know why they want to be there and they know why they want to be there and they probably already checked us out. So they probably already checked us out. So they probably already checked us out. So you know the online space is our atrium you know the online space is our atrium you know the online space is our atrium now. That's our, you know, that's our now. That's our, you know, that's our now. That's our, you know, that's our some people talk about like that's our some people talk about like that's our some people talk about like that's our porch, right? We know that people have porch, right? We know that people have porch, right? We know that people have already had an experience more than already had an experience more than already had an experience more than likely with our church. So my point is likely with our church. So my point is likely with our church. So my point is when they're here, we don't have to I when they're here, we don't have to I when they're here, we don't have to I feel like I don't have to work as hard feel like I don't have to work as hard feel like I don't have to work as hard to win their ear anymore. Um I think to win their ear anymore. Um I think to win their ear anymore. Um I think that's already been done just because of that's already been done just because of that's already been done just because of the ubiquity of technology nowadays. And the ubiquity of technology nowadays. And the ubiquity of technology nowadays. And um and then I also think there's an um and then I also think there's an um and then I also think there's an openness. I think you've got the openness. I think you've got the openness. I think you've got the technology side that's really made technology side that's really made technology side that's really made content ubiquitous and so people have content ubiquitous and so people have content ubiquitous and so people have probably already seen what you're doing. probably already seen what you're doing. probably already seen what you're doing. Secondly, I I also think there's an Secondly, I I also think there's an Secondly, I I also think there's an openness because I I just think that the openness because I I just think that the openness because I I just think that the last five years, institutions have last five years, institutions have last five years, institutions have failed the broader culture and what what failed the broader culture and what what failed the broader culture and what what people looked to as far as truth to find people looked to as far as truth to find people looked to as far as truth to find a sense of truth um in institutions like a sense of truth um in institutions like a sense of truth um in institutions like politics, institutions like media, politics, institutions like media, politics, institutions like media, traditional media, all that. That's all traditional media, all that. That's all traditional media, all that. That's all gone now. And I think most people gone now. And I think most people gone now. And I think most people understand even if they can't articulate understand even if they can't articulate understand even if they can't articulate it, they sort of intuit it, I don't know it, they sort of intuit it, I don't know it, they sort of intuit it, I don't know what to trust anymore. And so when they what to trust anymore. And so when they what to trust anymore. And so when they come into church, what I'm seeing right come into church, what I'm seeing right come into church, what I'm seeing right now is it just feels like people are now is it just feels like people are now is it just feels like people are just going, "Just tell me the truth.

just going, "Just tell me the truth. just going, "Just tell me the truth. Just tell me the truth." And so again, I Just tell me the truth." And so again, I Just tell me the truth." And so again, I feel like we can get from a preaching feel like we can get from a preaching feel like we can get from a preaching standpoint, we can get there quicker. Um standpoint, we can get there quicker. Um standpoint, we can get there quicker. Um I still want to be winsome and we still I still want to be winsome and we still I still want to be winsome and we still work very hard. I want to work very hard work very hard. I want to work very hard work very hard. I want to work very hard at being winsome. Um but I just don't at being winsome. Um but I just don't at being winsome. Um but I just don't have to work as hard at again winning have to work as hard at again winning have to work as hard at again winning your ear when you're here. You know why your ear when you're here. You know why your ear when you're here. You know why you're here. Um and so uh I I've just you're here. Um and so uh I I've just you're here. Um and so uh I I've just found that that's a little bit of a found that that's a little bit of a found that that's a little bit of a shift. I also find that people I'm shift. I also find that people I'm shift. I also find that people I'm seeing right now that and and other seeing right now that and and other seeing right now that and and other people that I know around the country people that I know around the country people that I know around the country and I'm feeling it as well to just and I'm feeling it as well to just and I'm feeling it as well to just um from a clarity standpoint just just um from a clarity standpoint just just um from a clarity standpoint just just the gospel just say it straight up and the gospel just say it straight up and the gospel just say it straight up and um and I know that sounds ridiculous um and I know that sounds ridiculous um and I know that sounds ridiculous almost coming from a pastor but you know almost coming from a pastor but you know almost coming from a pastor but you know I I actually think context always I I actually think context always I I actually think context always matters and I think 20 25 years ago one matters and I think 20 25 years ago one matters and I think 20 25 years ago one of the primary questions people were of the primary questions people were of the primary questions people were wondering and asking was is the church wondering and asking was is the church wondering and asking was is the church relevant to my life? Um, I don't think relevant to my life? Um, I don't think relevant to my life? Um, I don't think that question ever goes away by the way, that question ever goes away by the way, that question ever goes away by the way, but I don't know if that's the but I don't know if that's the but I don't know if that's the fundamental question because I think fundamental question because I think fundamental question because I think again if they're here, they've already again if they're here, they've already again if they're here, they've already answered. I think it might be. So now answered. I think it might be. So now answered. I think it might be. So now it's more just can you tell me the truth it's more just can you tell me the truth it's more just can you tell me the truth and tell it in a way that makes sense to and tell it in a way that makes sense to and tell it in a way that makes sense to me. So relevancy is not cultural me. So relevancy is not cultural me. So relevancy is not cultural relevance to me is not being cute.

relevance to me is not being cute. relevance to me is not being cute. Relevance is about my heart beats a Relevance is about my heart beats a Relevance is about my heart beats a little bit faster because you just told little bit faster because you just told little bit faster because you just told me something that's true. So when me something that's true. So when me something that's true. So when someone speaks relevancy in relevantly someone speaks relevancy in relevantly someone speaks relevancy in relevantly into your life, it means they saw the into your life, it means they saw the into your life, it means they saw the they saw you and spoke directly to the they saw you and spoke directly to the they saw you and spoke directly to the needs that you have. That's relevancy. needs that you have. That's relevancy. needs that you have. That's relevancy. Um, you know, which sort of Um, you know, which sort of Um, you know, which sort of self-explanatory, you're irrelevant if self-explanatory, you're irrelevant if self-explanatory, you're irrelevant if you're not me, you're not seeing me and you're not me, you're not seeing me and you're not me, you're not seeing me and speaking directly to me. So I don't speaking directly to me. So I don't speaking directly to me. So I don't think that ever goes away. I just don't think that ever goes away. I just don't think that ever goes away. I just don't think that people from a cultural I think that people from a cultural I think that people from a cultural I don't think we have to go, hey, we're don't think we have to go, hey, we're don't think we have to go, hey, we're we're we're cool. Um what we have to we're we're cool. Um what we have to we're we're cool. Um what we have to offer people is here's what's true and offer people is here's what's true and offer people is here's what's true and we're going to do it in a way that is as we're going to do it in a way that is as we're going to do it in a way that is as clear as possible. Um but we're not clear as possible. Um but we're not clear as possible. Um but we're not going to we can we can just go right going to we can we can just go right going to we can we can just go right there. Now there. Now there. Now I think you're right. It's kind of like I think you're right. It's kind of like I think you're right. It's kind of like from relevance to resonance. You know from relevance to resonance. You know from relevance to resonance. You know what I mean? Is this resonating as what I mean? Is this resonating as what I mean? Is this resonating as opposed to you can almost you don't have opposed to you can almost you don't have opposed to you can almost you don't have to quite skip a step but that whole idea to quite skip a step but that whole idea to quite skip a step but that whole idea of like hey you probably don't know what of like hey you probably don't know what of like hey you probably don't know what this dialogue is about. It's about XYZ. this dialogue is about. It's about XYZ. this dialogue is about. It's about XYZ. It's like no you know what this dialogue It's like no you know what this dialogue It's like no you know what this dialogue is about. So let's just go there. Is is about. So let's just go there. Is is about. So let's just go there. Is that what you're saying? I think that's that what you're saying? I think that's that what you're saying? I think that's Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. And um and I don't want to overstate and And um and I don't want to overstate and And um and I don't want to overstate and and say that like I'm still going to use and say that like I'm still going to use and say that like I'm still going to use um every cultural good I can artifact I um every cultural good I can artifact I um every cultural good I can artifact I can do to to try to bridge gap. I think can do to to try to bridge gap. I think can do to to try to bridge gap. I think we're being irresponsible as pastors if we're being irresponsible as pastors if we're being irresponsible as pastors if we don't do that. All I'm trying to say we don't do that. All I'm trying to say we don't do that. All I'm trying to say is you just don't have to work as hard is you just don't have to work as hard is you just don't have to work as hard to to win. They're coming open. That's to to win. They're coming open. That's to to win. They're coming open. That's what I'm trying to say. And so I want to what I'm trying to say. And so I want to what I'm trying to say. And so I want to I want to I want to um engage that right I want to I want to um engage that right I want to I want to um engage that right away, not dance around that. away, not dance around that. away, not dance around that. Drilling down a little bit more, what Drilling down a little bit more, what Drilling down a little bit more, what are the things that are resonating in are the things that are resonating in are the things that are resonating in preaching now versus things that maybe preaching now versus things that maybe preaching now versus things that maybe resonated 10 years ago that aren't resonated 10 years ago that aren't resonated 10 years ago that aren't resonating anymore. resonating anymore. resonating anymore. Yeah, there seems to be pe people want Yeah, there seems to be pe people want Yeah, there seems to be pe people want to know what the Bible says. And and to know what the Bible says. And and to know what the Bible says. And and again, some of this stuff is going to again, some of this stuff is going to again, some of this stuff is going to sound almost so ridiculously sound almost so ridiculously sound almost so ridiculously nonsensical, like what did they not care nonsensical, like what did they not care nonsensical, like what did they not care 10 years ago. I just think it's a 10 years ago. I just think it's a 10 years ago. I just think it's a different thing now. I I I think and different thing now. I I I think and different thing now. I I I think and again, technologies changed the game. again, technologies changed the game. again, technologies changed the game. And um but people want to know what the And um but people want to know what the And um but people want to know what the Bible says. And so we're going to um Bible says. And so we're going to um Bible says. And so we're going to um probably get there quicker and just say, probably get there quicker and just say, probably get there quicker and just say, "Hey, look, this is what the passage is.

"Hey, look, this is what the passage is. "Hey, look, this is what the passage is. We're going to break it down. We're We're going to break it down. We're We're going to break it down. We're going to talk this through." Um I think going to talk this through." Um I think going to talk this through." Um I think that's one um I don't know if that's a that's one um I don't know if that's a that's one um I don't know if that's a shift, but that's something that I feel shift, but that's something that I feel shift, but that's something that I feel like um that we're seeing. People also like um that we're seeing. People also like um that we're seeing. People also want want want um people want to um people want to um people want to know who's God, is God big, and what know who's God, is God big, and what know who's God, is God big, and what does it have to do with my life? And um does it have to do with my life? And um does it have to do with my life? And um and how does it change me? There's a lot and how does it change me? There's a lot and how does it change me? There's a lot of see what's interesting Carrie that I of see what's interesting Carrie that I of see what's interesting Carrie that I see right now is like when you think see right now is like when you think see right now is like when you think about generations for a second there was about generations for a second there was about generations for a second there was a lot of deconstructing that had to a lot of deconstructing that had to a lot of deconstructing that had to happen 15 years ago 20 years ago because happen 15 years ago 20 years ago because happen 15 years ago 20 years ago because you had a whole generation Gen X you you had a whole generation Gen X you you had a whole generation Gen X you know that kind of grew know that kind of grew know that kind of grew up pseudochurched whether that was up pseudochurched whether that was up pseudochurched whether that was Catholic mainline whatever it might be Catholic mainline whatever it might be Catholic mainline whatever it might be right and and I just mean when I say right and and I just mean when I say right and and I just mean when I say pseudo church like maybe they weren't pseudo church like maybe they weren't pseudo church like maybe they weren't really maybe they were prior but there really maybe they were prior but there really maybe they were prior but there was a Judeo-Christian ethos in the air was a Judeo-Christian ethos in the air was a Judeo-Christian ethos in the air at least Um, so now they've all had kids at least Um, so now they've all had kids at least Um, so now they've all had kids who are 22, 23, 25 years old. They don't who are 22, 23, 25 years old. They don't who are 22, 23, 25 years old. They don't have and because of that they kind of have and because of that they kind of have and because of that they kind of backed away from the church. Those 23, backed away from the church. Those 23, backed away from the church. Those 23, 24, 25 year olds now, they have no de 24, 25 year olds now, they have no de 24, 25 year olds now, they have no de they don't have as much deconstructing they don't have as much deconstructing they don't have as much deconstructing to do. Theirs is just construction. And to do. Theirs is just construction. And to do. Theirs is just construction. And we, to me, this is the this is the most we, to me, this is the this is the most we, to me, this is the this is the most fun right now because um I don't have to fun right now because um I don't have to fun right now because um I don't have to take as much time to deconstruct things.

take as much time to deconstruct things. take as much time to deconstruct things. I have to take some times to deconstruct I have to take some times to deconstruct I have to take some times to deconstruct things culturally like what you've seen things culturally like what you've seen things culturally like what you've seen out there on TikTok that said this is out there on TikTok that said this is out there on TikTok that said this is what a Christian is actually no what what a Christian is actually no what what a Christian is actually no what they've seen politically this is what a they've seen politically this is what a they've seen politically this is what a Christian no so I have to deconstruct Christian no so I have to deconstruct Christian no so I have to deconstruct some of those things culturally but not some of those things culturally but not some of those things culturally but not necessarily the the religious baggage necessarily the the religious baggage necessarily the the religious baggage that comes with some things and so now I that comes with some things and so now I that comes with some things and so now I can just build up and just say hey this can just build up and just say hey this can just build up and just say hey this is what it means to be a follower of is what it means to be a follower of is what it means to be a follower of Jesus we're going to make it real simple Jesus we're going to make it real simple Jesus we're going to make it real simple um so I I I don't know if that's a shift um so I I I don't know if that's a shift um so I I I don't know if that's a shift but that's just again those are things but that's just again those are things but that's just again those are things that I feel like I'm seeing right that I feel like I'm seeing right that I feel like I'm seeing right Well, switching gears a little bit, you Well, switching gears a little bit, you Well, switching gears a little bit, you took over a thriving mega church from a took over a thriving mega church from a took over a thriving mega church from a founder, one of the biggest in the founder, one of the biggest in the founder, one of the biggest in the country. Uh, not an easy job. What What country. Uh, not an easy job. What What country. Uh, not an easy job. What What prepared you to become lead pastor? What prepared you to become lead pastor? What prepared you to become lead pastor? What are the skills? And I know it's kind of are the skills? And I know it's kind of are the skills? And I know it's kind of an awkward question, but I'm sure David, an awkward question, but I'm sure David, an awkward question, but I'm sure David, the founding pastor, David Ashcraft, saw the founding pastor, David Ashcraft, saw the founding pastor, David Ashcraft, saw things in you that he said, "You're things in you that he said, "You're things in you that he said, "You're ready for this." uh when you look back ready for this." uh when you look back ready for this." uh when you look back on your own life, what prepped you for on your own life, what prepped you for on your own life, what prepped you for that move into the senior leader seat?

that move into the senior leader seat? that move into the senior leader seat? Yeah. Well, well, David and I started Yeah. Well, well, David and I started Yeah. Well, well, David and I started talking. So, David, you know, David, for talking. So, David, you know, David, for talking. So, David, you know, David, for all intents and purposes, a founder um all intents and purposes, a founder um all intents and purposes, a founder um founder leader of this church and um had founder leader of this church and um had founder leader of this church and um had been here for 32 years. And so, the been here for 32 years. And so, the been here for 32 years. And so, the church grew up with David very very long church grew up with David very very long church grew up with David very very long time. And David is one of the strongest time. And David is one of the strongest time. And David is one of the strongest leaders in the country. I think he's one leaders in the country. I think he's one leaders in the country. I think he's one of the best leaders in the world. Um, of the best leaders in the world. Um, of the best leaders in the world. Um, and he is also one of the most and he is also one of the most and he is also one of the most unassuming leaders. David, he's very I'd unassuming leaders. David, he's very I'd unassuming leaders. David, he's very I'd love to have him on the podcast someday, love to have him on the podcast someday, love to have him on the podcast someday, but he's very um, yeah, you wouldn't but he's very um, yeah, you wouldn't but he's very um, yeah, you wouldn't pick him out of a line going that guy is pick him out of a line going that guy is pick him out of a line going that guy is leading and that's that's his leading and that's that's his leading and that's that's his personality. That's that's how he likes personality. That's that's how he likes personality. That's that's how he likes it. And um, and I think that's a might it. And um, and I think that's a might it. And um, and I think that's a might be why he's successful, too. I think be why he's successful, too. I think be why he's successful, too. I think that's a rare gift. Exactly. that I that's a rare gift. Exactly. that I that's a rare gift. Exactly. that I think has led to um I think his is being think has led to um I think his is being think has led to um I think his is being able to lead in such a dynamic way. But able to lead in such a dynamic way. But able to lead in such a dynamic way. But David and I started he got very David David and I started he got very David David and I started he got very David got very very challenged. I don't want got very very challenged. I don't want got very very challenged. I don't want to tell too much of his story but he got to tell too much of his story but he got to tell too much of his story but he got very challenged by Jim Collins idea of very challenged by Jim Collins idea of very challenged by Jim Collins idea of being a level five leader and um you being a level five leader and um you being a level five leader and um you know for most of your listeners probably know for most of your listeners probably know for most of your listeners probably have have heard some of that before but have have heard some of that before but have have heard some of that before but if they don't know you know was on the if they don't know you know was on the if they don't know you know was on the podcast a few months ago talking about podcast a few months ago talking about podcast a few months ago talking about that and other things. Yeah. So so the that and other things. Yeah. So so the that and other things. Yeah. So so the level five leader is the leader who level five leader is the leader who level five leader is the leader who essentially once you leave an essentially once you leave an essentially once you leave an organization it's better after you organization it's better after you organization it's better after you leave. It's not that it just survives.

leave. It's not that it just survives. leave. It's not that it just survives. It's not that it um keeps going. It's It's not that it um keeps going. It's It's not that it um keeps going. It's that it actually becomes better. And to that it actually becomes better. And to that it actually becomes better. And to your point, the key is humility. That's your point, the key is humility. That's your point, the key is humility. That's the difference. If humility is present, the difference. If humility is present, the difference. If humility is present, it'll get better. If it's absent, it'll it'll get better. If it's absent, it'll it'll get better. If it's absent, it'll probably decline. That's right. That's probably decline. That's right. That's probably decline. That's right. That's right. And David was very challenged by right. And David was very challenged by right. And David was very challenged by that and really set that as his life's that and really set that as his life's that and really set that as his life's ambition for that next season of ambition for that next season of ambition for that next season of ministry for him. And so him and I ministry for him. And so him and I ministry for him. And so him and I talked eight years before the transition talked eight years before the transition talked eight years before the transition happened. It's a long time, man. Oh, happened. It's a long time, man. Oh, happened. It's a long time, man. Oh, Carrie, you have no clue. That was a Carrie, you have no clue. That was a Carrie, you have no clue. That was a long time. It was a long time. And uh long time. It was a long time. And uh long time. It was a long time. And uh and what was so interesting is, you and what was so interesting is, you and what was so interesting is, you know, at that point, it's not like David know, at that point, it's not like David know, at that point, it's not like David is committing to me, this is what's is committing to me, this is what's is committing to me, this is what's going to happen. He he really couldn't. going to happen. He he really couldn't. going to happen. He he really couldn't. Um and it's not like I'm committing to Um and it's not like I'm committing to Um and it's not like I'm committing to I'll stick around. It was more I'll stick around. It was more I'll stick around. It was more conceptual. It was it was hey, so what conceptual. It was it was hey, so what conceptual. It was it was hey, so what if um hey, I think you've got some of if um hey, I think you've got some of if um hey, I think you've got some of the gifts. Um, I think you've got some the gifts. Um, I think you've got some the gifts. Um, I think you've got some of the um the makeup that we would that of the um the makeup that we would that of the um the makeup that we would that the LCBC would need moving forward. Um, the LCBC would need moving forward. Um, the LCBC would need moving forward. Um, but there's a lot of unanswered and so but there's a lot of unanswered and so but there's a lot of unanswered and so what if we just keep talking about it what if we just keep talking about it what if we just keep talking about it and praying about it? And so really for and praying about it? And so really for and praying about it? And so really for the first couple of years we just we the first couple of years we just we the first couple of years we just we didn't talk about it all the time. We didn't talk about it all the time. We didn't talk about it all the time. We talked about like once a year for for talked about like once a year for for talked about like once a year for for two or three years and we committed to two or three years and we committed to two or three years and we committed to reading some books together and that was reading some books together and that was reading some books together and that was it. Um, and I think that would have been it. Um, and I think that would have been it. Um, and I think that would have been miserable had we just been talking about miserable had we just been talking about miserable had we just been talking about it for eight years. And so that was a it for eight years. And so that was a it for eight years. And so that was a little bit of a risk on David's part little bit of a risk on David's part little bit of a risk on David's part because he's got to he's got to in in a because he's got to he's got to in in a because he's got to he's got to in in a lot of ways plant the seed because he lot of ways plant the seed because he lot of ways plant the seed because he needs to know am I even interested? Um

needs to know am I even interested? Um needs to know am I even interested? Um but he also you know by doing that but he also you know by doing that but he also you know by doing that plants the seed which means that might plants the seed which means that might plants the seed which means that might get my head going in a different get my head going in a different get my head going in a different direction and it's a possible future direction and it's a possible future direction and it's a possible future scenario. That's right. That's right. scenario. That's right. That's right. scenario. That's right. That's right. That's right. So, so we we kind of the That's right. So, so we we kind of the That's right. So, so we we kind of the first two or three years it was very first two or three years it was very first two or three years it was very conceptual and we just kind of talked. conceptual and we just kind of talked. conceptual and we just kind of talked. The the second we kind of looked at it The the second we kind of looked at it The the second we kind of looked at it in three phases. Um that first phase was in three phases. Um that first phase was in three phases. Um that first phase was just let's just read together. Let's just let's just read together. Let's just let's just read together. Let's learn together. Let's just stay learn together. Let's just stay learn together. Let's just stay connected. The second phase was let's connected. The second phase was let's connected. The second phase was let's identify some areas if that's going to identify some areas if that's going to identify some areas if that's going to be where God leads to develop you. So be where God leads to develop you. So be where God leads to develop you. So let's increase preaching opportunities. let's increase preaching opportunities. let's increase preaching opportunities. Um uh uh interaction with exec team like Um uh uh interaction with exec team like Um uh uh interaction with exec team like beginning to lead at higher levels. Um beginning to lead at higher levels. Um beginning to lead at higher levels. Um some stuff like that. And then the third some stuff like that. And then the third some stuff like that. And then the third phase was obviously the sort of working phase was obviously the sort of working phase was obviously the sort of working with the board and going through all with the board and going through all with the board and going through all that process and with the church and all that process and with the church and all that process and with the church and all that. So we went through all of that and that. So we went through all of that and that. So we went through all of that and um um um um you know the the the thing that from um you know the the the thing that from um you know the the the thing that from a development standpoint that was so a development standpoint that was so a development standpoint that was so valuable was um him giving me the valuable was um him giving me the valuable was um him giving me the opportunities. But it wasn't just opportunities. But it wasn't just opportunities. But it wasn't just running the play. We had all the plays.

running the play. We had all the plays. running the play. We had all the plays. There's books you can read about how to There's books you can read about how to There's books you can read about how to do it. There's great books and resources do it. There's great books and resources do it. There's great books and resources um about how to do all this. Um but the um about how to do all this. Um but the um about how to do all this. Um but the thing that matters more than anything thing that matters more than anything thing that matters more than anything else from a development standpoint is else from a development standpoint is else from a development standpoint is time together. There is nothing that can time together. There is nothing that can time together. There is nothing that can replace that. You replace that. You replace that. You could spent a lot of time together. We could spent a lot of time together. We could spent a lot of time together. We spent more time together than we did spent more time together than we did spent more time together than we did with our families some seasons. And um with our families some seasons. And um with our families some seasons. And um you know, which is true for most people you know, which is true for most people you know, which is true for most people in the workplace. You're spending you in the workplace. You're spending you in the workplace. You're spending you know, 45 hours, 50 hours a week with know, 45 hours, 50 hours a week with know, 45 hours, 50 hours a week with people. And David and I, we traveled people. And David and I, we traveled people. And David and I, we traveled together. I spent time with him and, you together. I spent time with him and, you together. I spent time with him and, you know, Jenny and I were in their home. We know, Jenny and I were in their home. We know, Jenny and I were in their home. We went places. Um, we any decision towards went places. Um, we any decision towards went places. Um, we any decision towards the end that he was having to make, we the end that he was having to make, we the end that he was having to make, we were talking it out together because were talking it out together because were talking it out together because part of what he's trying to do is show part of what he's trying to do is show part of what he's trying to do is show me how to think, not, you know, that's me how to think, not, you know, that's me how to think, not, you know, that's what what you're trying to do, not the what what you're trying to do, not the what what you're trying to do, not the decision. You're trying to really decision. You're trying to really decision. You're trying to really implant into someone else how to come to implant into someone else how to come to implant into someone else how to come to decisions. And there's nothing that can decisions. And there's nothing that can decisions. And there's nothing that can replace that. And so, um, that was the replace that. And so, um, that was the replace that. And so, um, that was the greatest development opportunity more greatest development opportunity more greatest development opportunity more than anything else. Um, it wasn't what than anything else. Um, it wasn't what than anything else. Um, it wasn't what we read, it was the time together. And we read, it was the time together. And we read, it was the time together. And we just made a commitment, Gary. We just we just made a commitment, Gary. We just we just made a commitment, Gary. We just said, "Look, we're going to be said, "Look, we're going to be said, "Look, we're going to be ruthlessly at times awkwardly honest ruthlessly at times awkwardly honest ruthlessly at times awkwardly honest with each other through this process with each other through this process with each other through this process because if we don't do that, things are because if we don't do that, things are because if we don't do that, things are going to get wonky." And emo, one of the going to get wonky." And emo, one of the going to get wonky." And emo, one of the things him and I talked about a lot was things him and I talked about a lot was things him and I talked about a lot was the thing that will derail this is the thing that will derail this is the thing that will derail this is emotions. It's not going to be the emotions. It's not going to be the emotions. It's not going to be the mechanics of how to do a succession mechanics of how to do a succession mechanics of how to do a succession plan. It will be the emotions that come plan. It will be the emotions that come plan. It will be the emotions that come up that derail this thing. And it's up that derail this thing. And it's up that derail this thing. And it's stupid stuff like, oh, when David um stupid stuff like, oh, when David um stupid stuff like, oh, when David um when David announced me that I was going

when David announced me that I was going when David announced me that I was going to be the guy, they didn't clap as much to be the guy, they didn't clap as much to be the guy, they didn't clap as much as I thought they were going to clap. as I thought they were going to clap. as I thought they were going to clap. And did David underell this? It's those And did David underell this? It's those And did David underell this? It's those dumb little things, you know, that that dumb little things, you know, that that dumb little things, you know, that that come into your head or, you know, for come into your head or, you know, for come into your head or, you know, for David, it's like, well, when I announced David, it's like, well, when I announced David, it's like, well, when I announced it with Jason, they clap louder for that it with Jason, they clap louder for that it with Jason, they clap louder for that than they did when I told him I So those than they did when I told him I So those than they did when I told him I So those are the things that derail it. And we are the things that derail it. And we are the things that derail it. And we just made a commitment. We would, if we just made a commitment. We would, if we just made a commitment. We would, if we ever felt those things, we'd talk it out ever felt those things, we'd talk it out ever felt those things, we'd talk it out with each other. And we had to and we we with each other. And we had to and we we with each other. And we had to and we we shed a lot of tears uh here in this shed a lot of tears uh here in this shed a lot of tears uh here in this office um together because I needed to office um together because I needed to office um together because I needed to feel what it felt like to be in his feel what it felt like to be in his feel what it felt like to be in his shoes and he needed to feel what it felt shoes and he needed to feel what it felt shoes and he needed to feel what it felt like to be in my shoes. And um that gave like to be in my shoes. And um that gave like to be in my shoes. And um that gave us empathy for each other and there were us empathy for each other and there were us empathy for each other and there were times where I was like David it feels times where I was like David it feels times where I was like David it feels like I the hardest time was about four like I the hardest time was about four like I the hardest time was about four years in because I knew we were kind of years in because I knew we were kind of years in because I knew we were kind of like at the halfway point and now I've like at the halfway point and now I've like at the halfway point and now I've got vision and now I've got these things got vision and now I've got these things got vision and now I've got these things that I want. And that was very hard that I want. And that was very hard that I want. And that was very hard because I told him I was like David I because I told him I was like David I because I told him I was like David I mean this is going to sound stupid now mean this is going to sound stupid now mean this is going to sound stupid now but at the time you're like are my best but at the time you're like are my best but at the time you're like are my best years behind me. So again I know it years behind me. So again I know it years behind me. So again I know it sounds ridiculous but those are things sounds ridiculous but those are things sounds ridiculous but those are things you think and you know and it was an you think and you know and it was an you think and you know and it was an eight-year process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

eight-year process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. eight-year process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And by that point you know I was I don't And by that point you know I was I don't And by that point you know I was I don't know how or what was how old I was at know how or what was how old I was at know how or what was how old I was at that point but probably in my early 40s that point but probably in my early 40s that point but probably in my early 40s and I'm like oh man am I even going to and I'm like oh man am I even going to and I'm like oh man am I even going to be relevant anymore? Again, I know it's be relevant anymore? Again, I know it's be relevant anymore? Again, I know it's ridiculous rationally speaking, but ridiculous rationally speaking, but ridiculous rationally speaking, but emotionally, oh, that felt real. And you emotionally, oh, that felt real. And you emotionally, oh, that felt real. And you know, we So, what did I need to do? I know, we So, what did I need to do? I know, we So, what did I need to do? I need to talk that out with him. And I need to talk that out with him. And I need to talk that out with him. And I told him and he understood. And then he told him and he understood. And then he told him and he understood. And then he told me, "Well, let me tell you how I told me, "Well, let me tell you how I told me, "Well, let me tell you how I feel. I feel like I got more in the tank feel. I feel like I got more in the tank feel. I feel like I got more in the tank and that I'm handing this." Now, that's and that I'm handing this." Now, that's and that I'm handing this." Now, that's the whole goal, right? Is to hand it the whole goal, right? Is to hand it the whole goal, right? Is to hand it when you're running at your fastest, but when you're running at your fastest, but when you're running at your fastest, but you're still running fast. That's hard. you're still running fast. That's hard. you're still running fast. That's hard. So, he would now I could now I could get So, he would now I could now I could get So, he would now I could now I could get behind his eyes. he was getting behind behind his eyes. he was getting behind behind his eyes. he was getting behind my eyes and we were able to that that my eyes and we were able to that that my eyes and we were able to that that just created empathy and that's how we just created empathy and that's how we just created empathy and that's how we got through that. Um and it was it was got through that. Um and it was it was got through that. Um and it was it was uh it was incredible but it was very uh it was incredible but it was very uh it was incredible but it was very very challenging and we had to be honest very challenging and we had to be honest very challenging and we had to be honest honest honest like the thing that you're honest honest like the thing that you're honest honest like the thing that you're like that's the thing I don't want to like that's the thing I don't want to like that's the thing I don't want to say is probably the thing you have to say is probably the thing you have to say is probably the thing you have to say um because that's how that's how you say um because that's how that's how you say um because that's how that's how you don't let it grow in your head and then don't let it grow in your head and then don't let it grow in your head and then become oh he's holding me back. that become oh he's holding me back. that become oh he's holding me back. that that little thing becomes moves from I that little thing becomes moves from I that little thing becomes moves from I feel like I have feel like I have feel like I have more. Then if you don't voice that what more. Then if you don't voice that what more. Then if you don't voice that what it becomes that seed grows into he's it becomes that seed grows into he's it becomes that seed grows into he's holding me back which becomes the it holding me back which becomes the it holding me back which becomes the it grows into the tree of I'm better off grows into the tree of I'm better off grows into the tree of I'm better off somewhere else. So that's why you got to somewhere else. So that's why you got to somewhere else. So that's why you got to get it out and you got to have that get it out and you got to have that get it out and you got to have that relationship. I've thought a lot about relationship. I've thought a lot about relationship. I've thought a lot about succession, been through it myself, succession, been through it myself, succession, been through it myself, interviewed a lot of leaders on it, but interviewed a lot of leaders on it, but interviewed a lot of leaders on it, but honesty hasn't really come up that

honesty hasn't really come up that honesty hasn't really come up that frequently as a frame. And I think frequently as a frame. And I think frequently as a frame. And I think you're right cuz what happens is you're right cuz what happens is you're right cuz what happens is everybody smiles at the meeting and then everybody smiles at the meeting and then everybody smiles at the meeting and then you go home and you say to your wife you go home and you say to your wife you go home and you say to your wife like, "I think my best days are behind like, "I think my best days are behind like, "I think my best days are behind me. I got to Yep. I got to make a me. I got to Yep. I got to make a me. I got to Yep. I got to make a decision." Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk more decision." Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk more decision." Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk more about the honesty framework and maybe about the honesty framework and maybe about the honesty framework and maybe give a couple of more examples of um give a couple of more examples of um give a couple of more examples of um when he had to get honest with you or when he had to get honest with you or when he had to get honest with you or you had to get honest with him to the you had to get honest with him to the you had to get honest with him to the level that you're comfortable because I level that you're comfortable because I level that you're comfortable because I think that's ref I'm you know I had a think that's ref I'm you know I had a think that's ref I'm you know I had a hard week this week and you know I was hard week this week and you know I was hard week this week and you know I was there with a colleague this morning uh I there with a colleague this morning uh I there with a colleague this morning uh I don't want to get into it with his don't want to get into it with his don't want to get into it with his name's Brad. I don't want to get into it name's Brad. I don't want to get into it name's Brad. I don't want to get into it with Brad. And then I did and he goes, with Brad. And then I did and he goes, with Brad. And then I did and he goes, "Well, actually, me too." You know, like "Well, actually, me too." You know, like "Well, actually, me too." You know, like it's funny how the honesty really is it's funny how the honesty really is it's funny how the honesty really is such a powerful thing and yet we're such a powerful thing and yet we're such a powerful thing and yet we're always temp I'm always tempted to put on always temp I'm always tempted to put on always temp I'm always tempted to put on the game face and like everything's the game face and like everything's the game face and like everything's great. Like what what were some other great. Like what what were some other great. Like what what were some other examples of how honesty made that a examples of how honesty made that a examples of how honesty made that a great process for you? I I I think so.

great process for you? I I I think so. great process for you? I I I think so. Some things we had to be honest about Some things we had to be honest about Some things we had to be honest about was our fears. Um, I'm afra Hey, David, was our fears. Um, I'm afra Hey, David, was our fears. Um, I'm afra Hey, David, I'm afraid you're going to reig on this. I'm afraid you're going to reig on this. I'm afraid you're going to reig on this. You're going to back. You're going to You're going to back. You're going to You're going to back. You're going to you're going to get to the end of this you're going to get to the end of this you're going to get to the end of this and you're going to go, "You know what? and you're going to go, "You know what? and you're going to go, "You know what? Never mind. I think I do. I do have Never mind. I think I do. I do have Never mind. I think I do. I do have some." So, David, I'm afraid of that. I some." So, David, I'm afraid of that. I some." So, David, I'm afraid of that. I need to be honest about my fears. He's need to be honest about my fears. He's need to be honest about my fears. He's sitting there going, I'm afraid you're sitting there going, I'm afraid you're sitting there going, I'm afraid you're going to leave before this process is up going to leave before this process is up going to leave before this process is up and now you've left me. You're afraid and now you've left me. You're afraid and now you've left me. You're afraid he's going to change his mind. He's he's going to change his mind. He's he's going to change his mind. He's afraid you're going to leave. Yep. And afraid you're going to leave. Yep. And afraid you're going to leave. Yep. And we had to voice those fears. Wow. And be we had to voice those fears. Wow. And be we had to voice those fears. Wow. And be because um again without voicing them because um again without voicing them because um again without voicing them they become something else. They grow they become something else. They grow they become something else. They grow into something else. Um I I think that into something else. Um I I think that into something else. Um I I think that was one of them. One of them was a big was one of them. One of them was a big was one of them. One of them was a big moment you know it was again it was moment you know it was again it was moment you know it was again it was right at that the bottom for me as far right at that the bottom for me as far right at that the bottom for me as far as the most when I say bottom I mean the as the most when I say bottom I mean the as the most when I say bottom I mean the most challenging part was again that most challenging part was again that most challenging part was again that halfway point and there was a moment halfway point and there was a moment halfway point and there was a moment where I was a campus pastor at the time. where I was a campus pastor at the time. where I was a campus pastor at the time. I've done a lot of different roles here. I've done a lot of different roles here. I've done a lot of different roles here. Um and I was a campus pastor was our Um and I was a campus pastor was our Um and I was a campus pastor was our first merger experience and so I I moved first merger experience and so I I moved first merger experience and so I I moved out to the Philadelphia area. um to out to the Philadelphia area. um to out to the Philadelphia area. um to bring a church on to to L online to bring a church on to to L online to bring a church on to to L online to LCBC. And so I'd been out there for LCBC. And so I'd been out there for LCBC. And so I'd been out there for about four four or five years at that about four four or five years at that about four four or five years at that point. And um we were still four years point. And um we were still four years point. And um we were still four years or five years away from the transition or five years away from the transition or five years away from the transition happening as as far as David and I had happening as as far as David and I had happening as as far as David and I had talked about it. And one day and and a talked about it. And one day and and a talked about it. And one day and and a church, it was the closest I'd ever church, it was the closest I'd ever church, it was the closest I'd ever come. I had never entertained the idea come. I had never entertained the idea come. I had never entertained the idea of another church. Never. but once and of another church. Never. but once and of another church. Never. but once and some of it was the circumstances of how some of it was the circumstances of how some of it was the circumstances of how it kind of came about. But another was I it kind of came about. But another was I it kind of came about. But another was I was at this point where I was going I

was at this point where I was going I was at this point where I was going I don't know if I can do this four more don't know if I can do this four more don't know if I can do this four more years. I've got something in me I want years. I've got something in me I want years. I've got something in me I want to bring. And I went back one day after to bring. And I went back one day after to bring. And I went back one day after doing um you know vision and offering at doing um you know vision and offering at doing um you know vision and offering at that campus and I went back to this that campus and I went back to this that campus and I went back to this little back office and Carrie I I bought little back office and Carrie I I bought little back office and Carrie I I bought my eyes. I wept. I mean like like little my eyes. I wept. I mean like like little my eyes. I wept. I mean like like little kid weeping. Um like it was ugly cry kid weeping. Um like it was ugly cry kid weeping. Um like it was ugly cry stuff and um and it's because I thought stuff and um and it's because I thought stuff and um and it's because I thought I can't do this and I've got all here's I can't do this and I've got all here's I can't do this and I've got all here's what I actually felt. I've got all this what I actually felt. I've got all this what I actually felt. I've got all this vision. I've got all this something in vision. I've got all this something in vision. I've got all this something in me and all I get is three minutes for me and all I get is three minutes for me and all I get is three minutes for some announcements. Now that's not true some announcements. Now that's not true some announcements. Now that's not true but again it's emotions. It's not but again it's emotions. It's not but again it's emotions. It's not rational. So, um, but that's how I felt. rational. So, um, but that's how I felt. rational. So, um, but that's how I felt. So, do you know what I did? I knew what So, do you know what I did? I knew what So, do you know what I did? I knew what I had to do. I had to go on that Monday I had to do. I had to go on that Monday I had to do. I had to go on that Monday or Tuesday, whenever that was, whenever or Tuesday, whenever that was, whenever or Tuesday, whenever that was, whenever we saw each other, and I had to tell we saw each other, and I had to tell we saw each other, and I had to tell him, and I didn't have to. I needed to I him, and I didn't have to. I needed to I him, and I didn't have to. I needed to I needed to tell him that. So, I did. I needed to tell him that. So, I did. I needed to tell him that. So, I did. I said, "David, I I I'm I'm wrestling."

said, "David, I I I'm I'm wrestling." said, "David, I I I'm I'm wrestling." And I told him about the opportunity. I And I told him about the opportunity. I And I told him about the opportunity. I told him about it all. And you know what told him about it all. And you know what told him about it all. And you know what he did in response? We we sped up the he did in response? We we sped up the he did in response? We we sped up the timeline. Whoa. Yeah. I mean, so he's timeline. Whoa. Yeah. I mean, so he's timeline. Whoa. Yeah. I mean, so he's sitting there going, um, and and also he sitting there going, um, and and also he sitting there going, um, and and also he got real honest with me at that moment, got real honest with me at that moment, got real honest with me at that moment, too, just saying, man, that's when he too, just saying, man, that's when he too, just saying, man, that's when he was kind of like, I feel like I'm gonna was kind of like, I feel like I'm gonna was kind of like, I feel like I'm gonna be I feel like I'm going to be a lame be I feel like I'm going to be a lame be I feel like I'm going to be a lame duck, though, if I if we move it up and duck, though, if I if we move it up and duck, though, if I if we move it up and all that. He's and again, he's still all that. He's and again, he's still all that. He's and again, he's still running full speed. So, we left that running full speed. So, we left that running full speed. So, we left that conversation so connected. Didn't solve conversation so connected. Didn't solve conversation so connected. Didn't solve everything right away, but connected and everything right away, but connected and everything right away, but connected and that's what mattered. Um and so those that's what mattered. Um and so those that's what mattered. Um and so those are those are two examples of being very are those are two examples of being very are those are two examples of being very very honest with each other and um yeah very honest with each other and um yeah very honest with each other and um yeah so it it it was a it was it was it was so it it it was a it was it was it was so it it it was a it was it was it was hard at times but that is the key that hard at times but that is the key that hard at times but that is the key that got us through it. There is no doubt got us through it. There is no doubt got us through it. There is no doubt about that. That is the key. So I want about that. That is the key. So I want about that. That is the key. So I want to go deeper on that Jason and get your to go deeper on that Jason and get your to go deeper on that Jason and get your advice. I talked to a lot of leaders and advice. I talked to a lot of leaders and advice. I talked to a lot of leaders and the eight-year timeline is not as the eight-year timeline is not as the eight-year timeline is not as unusual as you think. So there are unusual as you think. So there are unusual as you think. So there are founders listening, people in David's founders listening, people in David's founders listening, people in David's role, there are a lot of young leaders role, there are a lot of young leaders role, there are a lot of young leaders listening in your listening in your listening in your role and a lot of them get impatient and role and a lot of them get impatient and role and a lot of them get impatient and I've seen it go the other way where the I've seen it go the other way where the I've seen it go the other way where the air apparent leaves because this is air apparent leaves because this is air apparent leaves because this is taking forever. I've seen senior leaders taking forever. I've seen senior leaders taking forever. I've seen senior leaders change their mind. I talk to leaders who change their mind. I talk to leaders who change their mind. I talk to leaders who are waiting to be picked hoping they get are waiting to be picked hoping they get are waiting to be picked hoping they get picked or there's all this ambiguity picked or there's all this ambiguity picked or there's all this ambiguity around it. What would you say to the

around it. What would you say to the around it. What would you say to the person in your shoes who's been waiting person in your shoes who's been waiting person in your shoes who's been waiting for a couple years is like, is this day for a couple years is like, is this day for a couple years is like, is this day ever going to come? What are some of the ever going to come? What are some of the ever going to come? What are some of the things that person should or should not things that person should or should not things that person should or should not do? Give them advice. Yeah. No, that's a do? Give them advice. Yeah. No, that's a do? Give them advice. Yeah. No, that's a great question. And there's going to be great question. And there's going to be great question. And there's going to be more and more people in this kind of more and more people in this kind of more and more people in this kind of position. This is like this is a big position. This is like this is a big position. This is like this is a big boulder rolling down the hill right now. boulder rolling down the hill right now. boulder rolling down the hill right now. One of the things that helped me was a One of the things that helped me was a One of the things that helped me was a reframing. And I had to start to reframing. And I had to start to reframing. And I had to start to reframe. I'm not waiting on So, so reframe. I'm not waiting on So, so reframe. I'm not waiting on So, so here's how I started to reframe it. What here's how I started to reframe it. What here's how I started to reframe it. What What am I able to do in this season that What am I able to do in this season that What am I able to do in this season that I will not be able to do ever again? I will not be able to do ever again? I will not be able to do ever again? What are the opportunities in this What are the opportunities in this What are the opportunities in this season of waiting? What are the faithful season of waiting? What are the faithful season of waiting? What are the faithful with the small things that I need to be with the small things that I need to be with the small things that I need to be right now that will set me up for one right now that will set me up for one right now that will set me up for one day something else? And I took that as a day something else? And I took that as a day something else? And I took that as a personal um mission. I guess I I personal um mission. I guess I I personal um mission. I guess I I actually took that as I think God's actually took that as I think God's actually took that as I think God's calling me. Go. Hey, Jace. See, everyone calling me. Go. Hey, Jace. See, everyone calling me. Go. Hey, Jace. See, everyone wants to go to the next level. Most wants to go to the next level. Most wants to go to the next level. Most people don't want to grow to the ne next people don't want to grow to the ne next people don't want to grow to the ne next level. And what happens is we get these level. And what happens is we get these level. And what happens is we get these shortcuts and we go to the next level.

shortcuts and we go to the next level. shortcuts and we go to the next level. But because we didn't grow there, we're But because we didn't grow there, we're But because we didn't grow there, we're in over our heads. And you have to in over our heads. And you have to in over our heads. And you have to reframe to say, "Hey, this season there reframe to say, "Hey, this season there reframe to say, "Hey, this season there is going to be something grown in me is going to be something grown in me is going to be something grown in me that could not happen any other way." that could not happen any other way." that could not happen any other way." And embrace it. Find the positives in And embrace it. Find the positives in And embrace it. Find the positives in it. Stop resisting it. It's not a it. Stop resisting it. It's not a it. Stop resisting it. It's not a negative. It's a gift. And so I just I I negative. It's a gift. And so I just I I negative. It's a gift. And so I just I I wrote down I wrote down a list. I got I wrote down I wrote down a list. I got I wrote down I wrote down a list. I got I could show you in a journal. I actually could show you in a journal. I actually could show you in a journal. I actually I want examples. We're taking names I want examples. We're taking names I want examples. We're taking names here. I have never heard that question. here. I have never heard that question. here. I have never heard that question. I love it. What can I do in this season I love it. What can I do in this season I love it. What can I do in this season that I'll never be able to do again in that I'll never be able to do again in that I'll never be able to do again in another season? Because I think you're another season? Because I think you're another season? Because I think you're right. If you're a leader, you're always right. If you're a leader, you're always right. If you're a leader, you're always living in the future. One day I will. living in the future. One day I will. living in the future. One day I will. And even I'm sure as a senior pastor, And even I'm sure as a senior pastor, And even I'm sure as a senior pastor, you're like, "Well, next year. Well, you're like, "Well, next year. Well, you're like, "Well, next year. Well, next fall." Right. Like that's right. next fall." Right. Like that's right. next fall." Right. Like that's right. Can can you give us some examples? Can can you give us some examples? Can can you give us some examples? Absolutely. Um I mean I very practical Absolutely. Um I mean I very practical Absolutely. Um I mean I very practical things. You know we have Saturday night things. You know we have Saturday night things. You know we have Saturday night gatherings. So here here's one I wrote gatherings. So here here's one I wrote gatherings. So here here's one I wrote down on my list. Um I get Saturdays with down on my list. Um I get Saturdays with down on my list. Um I get Saturdays with my family right now. I will have less of my family right now. I will have less of my family right now. I will have less of those. So I'm going to leverage those those. So I'm going to leverage those those. So I'm going to leverage those right now. So in this season of waiting right now. So in this season of waiting right now. So in this season of waiting that is a gift that I'm going to that is a gift that I'm going to that is a gift that I'm going to leverage. Um another one leverage. Um another one leverage. Um another one was again going to sound simple. What was again going to sound simple. What was again going to sound simple. What are the meetings? what are the people are the meetings? what are the people are the meetings? what are the people who are the people I can meet with that who are the people I can meet with that who are the people I can meet with that I might not have the margin for once all I might not have the margin for once all I might not have the margin for once all this other stuff kind of comes on. So, I this other stuff kind of comes on. So, I this other stuff kind of comes on. So, I felt like be faithful in the small felt like be faithful in the small felt like be faithful in the small things is if I can't take a meeting with things is if I can't take a meeting with things is if I can't take a meeting with someone someone someone now. I'm not like that says something

now. I'm not like that says something now. I'm not like that says something about my heart condition about like about my heart condition about like about my heart condition about like they're not worth it now. I won't think they're not worth it now. I won't think they're not worth it now. I won't think they're worth it another but this is an they're worth it another but this is an they're worth it another but this is an opportunity right now to take the opportunity right now to take the opportunity right now to take the meetings with people that I might not meetings with people that I might not meetings with people that I might not because of just margin at some point I because of just margin at some point I because of just margin at some point I might not be able to take all of these. might not be able to take all of these. might not be able to take all of these. So, it was those kinds of things. It was So, it was those kinds of things. It was So, it was those kinds of things. It was looking around and going, "What are the looking around and going, "What are the looking around and going, "What are the opportunities I have right now that I opportunities I have right now that I opportunities I have right now that I might not have because of margin, might not have because of margin, might not have because of margin, because of responsibility, because of because of responsibility, because of because of responsibility, because of workload, because of things I don't even workload, because of things I don't even workload, because of things I don't even know are going to come." Um, and how do know are going to come." Um, and how do know are going to come." Um, and how do I see these as a gift in this moment? I see these as a gift in this moment? I see these as a gift in this moment? Um, and so, you know, I it was it was I Um, and so, you know, I it was it was I Um, and so, you know, I it was it was I just wrote a I just started that list just wrote a I just started that list just wrote a I just started that list and I just started writing and I and I just started writing and I and I just started writing and I probably had 10 or 11 things and that probably had 10 or 11 things and that probably had 10 or 11 things and that reframed it for me. Um, and again, and reframed it for me. Um, and again, and reframed it for me. Um, and again, and some of it, Carrie, was more on the some of it, Carrie, was more on the some of it, Carrie, was more on the character side. And and it was just I character side. And and it was just I character side. And and it was just I just want, again, I want to grow to the just want, again, I want to grow to the just want, again, I want to grow to the place I want to go, not go there. And place I want to go, not go there. And place I want to go, not go there. And because I want to be ready. I want to be because I want to be ready. I want to be because I want to be ready. I want to be prepared. And I think everybody prepared. And I think everybody prepared. And I think everybody listening to this, if you're familiar listening to this, if you're familiar listening to this, if you're familiar with Jesus's story, I I take that very with Jesus's story, I I take that very with Jesus's story, I I take that very seriously, and I'm sure everybody else seriously, and I'm sure everybody else seriously, and I'm sure everybody else does. If I'm faithful with the small, he does. If I'm faithful with the small, he does. If I'm faithful with the small, he will he will allow me to have other will he will allow me to have other will he will allow me to have other things in the future. So, be faithful things in the future. So, be faithful things in the future. So, be faithful with the small right now. And so, the with the small right now. And so, the with the small right now. And so, the small was Saturdays with my family. I've small was Saturdays with my family. I've small was Saturdays with my family. I've got to be faithful with that right now.

got to be faithful with that right now. got to be faithful with that right now. Um, I'm going to be faithful with taking Um, I'm going to be faithful with taking Um, I'm going to be faithful with taking that meeting right now. I'm going to be that meeting right now. I'm going to be that meeting right now. I'm going to be faith. It's simple things. Um, Yep. faith. It's simple things. Um, Yep. faith. It's simple things. Um, Yep. So, you step into the senior role. So, you step into the senior role. So, you step into the senior role. You've been prepping for eight years, You've been prepping for eight years, You've been prepping for eight years, arguably your whole life. Yeah. Yeah. arguably your whole life. Yeah. Yeah. arguably your whole life. Yeah. Yeah. There were surprises. Yeah. Right. When There were surprises. Yeah. Right. When There were surprises. Yeah. Right. When you finally sit in that desk, occupy you finally sit in that desk, occupy you finally sit in that desk, occupy that office, take on that quote mantle that office, take on that quote mantle that office, take on that quote mantle of leadership, all of us get surprised. of leadership, all of us get surprised. of leadership, all of us get surprised. What What surprised you? Yeah. I mean, a What What surprised you? Yeah. I mean, a What What surprised you? Yeah. I mean, a couple of things. I think one of the couple of things. I think one of the couple of things. I think one of the things that surprised me is how lonely things that surprised me is how lonely things that surprised me is how lonely it felt out of the gate. It felt very it felt out of the gate. It felt very it felt out of the gate. It felt very lonely. It did. It did. And not, you lonely. It did. It did. And not, you lonely. It did. It did. And not, you know, I think there's a difference know, I think there's a difference know, I think there's a difference between um obviously there's a between um obviously there's a between um obviously there's a difference between isolation and difference between isolation and difference between isolation and loneliness. It didn't feel isolating. I loneliness. It didn't feel isolating. I loneliness. It didn't feel isolating. I knew more people than ever. It but it knew more people than ever. It but it knew more people than ever. It but it felt lonely in the sense of um here here's the best way to say it. um here here's the best way to say it. My office where I used to office is 8 ft My office where I used to office is 8 ft My office where I used to office is 8 ft that way. Sure. that way. Sure. that way. Sure. When when David was here, anytime I was When when David was here, anytime I was When when David was here, anytime I was making a decision or thought we should making a decision or thought we should making a decision or thought we should do it, you know what I could do? I could do it, you know what I could do? I could do it, you know what I could do? I could walk eight feet down that down that walk eight feet down that down that walk eight feet down that down that hallway, knock on this door, and I had a hallway, knock on this door, and I had a hallway, knock on this door, and I had a back stop. And that backs stop went back stop. And that backs stop went back stop. And that backs stop went away. That's lonely. There's a feeling away. That's lonely. There's a feeling away. That's lonely. There's a feeling that settles in on you like, "Oh, it's that settles in on you like, "Oh, it's that settles in on you like, "Oh, it's on me." And it's not. Again, some of on me." And it's not. Again, some of on me." And it's not. Again, some of these things are like rationally these things are like rationally these things are like rationally speaking, you know, but emotionally you speaking, you know, but emotionally you speaking, you know, but emotionally you feel that. And obviously, we have feel that. And obviously, we have feel that. And obviously, we have incredible teams and all that and I'm incredible teams and all that and I'm incredible teams and all that and I'm very collaborative. Yeah, but there is a very collaborative. Yeah, but there is a very collaborative. Yeah, but there is a still a sense where like I got to make still a sense where like I got to make still a sense where like I got to make the decision. I'm this you got to you the decision. I'm this you got to you the decision. I'm this you got to you got to make the decision now on stuff.

got to make the decision now on stuff. got to make the decision now on stuff. So and and that's a lonely feeling that So and and that's a lonely feeling that So and and that's a lonely feeling that didn't last by the way. But that was an didn't last by the way. But that was an didn't last by the way. But that was an immediate sort of Why did it not last? immediate sort of Why did it not last? immediate sort of Why did it not last? Well, because I think number one is you Well, because I think number one is you Well, because I think number one is you get through all the first. So some of get through all the first. So some of get through all the first. So some of it's like your first Christmas, your it's like your first Christmas, your it's like your first Christmas, your first Easter, your first series, your first Easter, your first series, your first Easter, your first series, your first big challenge, whatever it might first big challenge, whatever it might first big challenge, whatever it might be. after you've getting gotten through be. after you've getting gotten through be. after you've getting gotten through all the first, there is a little bit of all the first, there is a little bit of all the first, there is a little bit of confidence that gets built like, okay, confidence that gets built like, okay, confidence that gets built like, okay, I've done that and I kind of know the I've done that and I kind of know the I've done that and I kind of know the rhythm now and I know I know what to rhythm now and I know I know what to rhythm now and I know I know what to avoid and I know um how to do that. So, avoid and I know um how to do that. So, avoid and I know um how to do that. So, some of it's just confidence gets built some of it's just confidence gets built some of it's just confidence gets built um in your decision-m and then and also um in your decision-m and then and also um in your decision-m and then and also you have t after time your team learns you have t after time your team learns you have t after time your team learns you're learning how to relate as a team you're learning how to relate as a team you're learning how to relate as a team and so they're still learning you a and so they're still learning you a and so they're still learning you a little bit um even in that new role. Um little bit um even in that new role. Um little bit um even in that new role. Um but that was a feeling and um that I had but that was a feeling and um that I had but that was a feeling and um that I had and maybe maybe a little bit of a and maybe maybe a little bit of a and maybe maybe a little bit of a surprise but the other actually um or surprise but the other actually um or surprise but the other actually um or another is related to what I just another is related to what I just another is related to what I just mentioned with the team um and learning mentioned with the team um and learning mentioned with the team um and learning you one of the mistakes incoming guys you one of the mistakes incoming guys you one of the mistakes incoming guys make and especially incoming guys who've make and especially incoming guys who've make and especially incoming guys who've been in the organization. So that was my been in the organization. So that was my been in the organization. So that was my story, right? I had been here 20 years.

story, right? I had been here 20 years. story, right? I had been here 20 years. I've been here 23 years total. I've been I've been here 23 years total. I've been I've been here 23 years total. I've been here 20 years before stepping into this here 20 years before stepping into this here 20 years before stepping into this role. A mistake that incoming guys can role. A mistake that incoming guys can role. A mistake that incoming guys can make is that all of that those 20 years make is that all of that those 20 years make is that all of that those 20 years or 5 years or 10 years, how long you've or 5 years or 10 years, how long you've or 5 years or 10 years, how long you've been there, the trust relational, that been there, the trust relational, that been there, the trust relational, that all comes with you into this new role. I all comes with you into this new role. I all comes with you into this new role. I don't think that's true. People need to don't think that's true. People need to don't think that's true. People need to learn to trust you in this role. Now, learn to trust you in this role. Now, learn to trust you in this role. Now, they trusted you as this. And I I always they trusted you as this. And I I always they trusted you as this. And I I always say just because you're a good father say just because you're a good father say just because you're a good father doesn't mean you'll be a good dad. you doesn't mean you'll be a good dad. you doesn't mean you'll be a good dad. you have to now because it's a different have to now because it's a different have to now because it's a different role. It's a totally different role. And role. It's a totally different role. And role. It's a totally different role. And so your character as a father will so your character as a father will so your character as a father will probably contribute to you being a good probably contribute to you being a good probably contribute to you being a good dad. Um but you also, hey, there's dad. Um but you also, hey, there's dad. Um but you also, hey, there's things you're going to have to learn now things you're going to have to learn now things you're going to have to learn now being a dad. So I I I think it was a being a dad. So I I I think it was a being a dad. So I I I think it was a mistake and and and I I didn't do this. mistake and and and I I didn't do this. mistake and and and I I didn't do this. I think I was prepared for this, but I I think I was prepared for this, but I I think I was prepared for this, but I took it very seriously to try to earn took it very seriously to try to earn took it very seriously to try to earn and gain trust with people that first and gain trust with people that first and gain trust with people that first year as opposed to just assuming it. year as opposed to just assuming it. year as opposed to just assuming it. Assumptions are what kill in transitions Assumptions are what kill in transitions Assumptions are what kill in transitions like that because you've, hey, well, like that because you've, hey, well, like that because you've, hey, well, they already know me. It's like, well, they already know me. It's like, well, they already know me. It's like, well, they don't know you as this. And because they don't know you as this. And because they don't know you as this. And because you've been there, now here's the thing.

you've been there, now here's the thing. you've been there, now here's the thing. Because you've been there, that trust is Because you've been there, that trust is Because you've been there, that trust is built very fast. So, so it's sped up built very fast. So, so it's sped up built very fast. So, so it's sped up considerably because they do have that considerably because they do have that considerably because they do have that relational equity with you, but they're relational equity with you, but they're relational equity with you, but they're still watching. And, um, I think if you still watching. And, um, I think if you still watching. And, um, I think if you just assume that everybody's with you just assume that everybody's with you just assume that everybody's with you just because you set that role, because just because you set that role, because just because you set that role, because they've known you for 20 years, I think they've known you for 20 years, I think they've known you for 20 years, I think you're making a mistake. Um, and so you're making a mistake. Um, and so you're making a mistake. Um, and so there is an aspect where you've got to there is an aspect where you've got to there is an aspect where you've got to learn uh how to how to gain that. And learn uh how to how to gain that. And learn uh how to how to gain that. And the last thing, Carrie, I'd probably the last thing, Carrie, I'd probably the last thing, Carrie, I'd probably mention with sort of maybe what what mention with sort of maybe what what mention with sort of maybe what what what surprised is um you know, one of what surprised is um you know, one of what surprised is um you know, one of the things that um I felt like I I I the things that um I felt like I I I the things that um I felt like I I I didn't know I was going to have to do so didn't know I was going to have to do so didn't know I was going to have to do so much is much is much is clarify how I'm different than David. clarify how I'm different than David. clarify how I'm different than David. And and some of it was I didn't even And and some of it was I didn't even And and some of it was I didn't even really know. You don't totally know really know. You don't totally know really know. You don't totally know until you get in the role. And David and until you get in the role. And David and until you get in the role. And David and I are like 99.5% the same the same I are like 99.5% the same the same I are like 99.5% the same the same because I that he was that's who I grew because I that he was that's who I grew because I that he was that's who I grew up with. Um but it's that.5% that up with. Um but it's that.5% that up with. Um but it's that.5% that matters and that that can be felt by the matters and that that can be felt by the matters and that that can be felt by the organization or can be felt. And so I organization or can be felt. And so I organization or can be felt. And so I just found myself and so even thinking just found myself and so even thinking just found myself and so even thinking about you know Carrie I know it's a about you know Carrie I know it's a about you know Carrie I know it's a topic you're interested in founder topic you're interested in founder topic you're interested in founder versus second generation. You know, versus second generation. You know, versus second generation. You know, founders are the CEO, CFO, chief founders are the CEO, CFO, chief founders are the CEO, CFO, chief marketing, chief facilities. They're marketing, chief facilities. They're marketing, chief facilities. They're everything. Beginning they had to be.

everything. Beginning they had to be. everything. Beginning they had to be. Yeah. When you have 200 people, you're Yeah. When you have 200 people, you're Yeah. When you have 200 people, you're closing up the building. Um, and a lot closing up the building. Um, and a lot closing up the building. Um, and a lot of those founders are such incredibly of those founders are such incredibly of those founders are such incredibly high capac they have such an incredible high capac they have such an incredible high capac they have such an incredible high capacity because they grew up with high capacity because they grew up with high capacity because they grew up with that and it's just it's almost second that and it's just it's almost second that and it's just it's almost second nature to them to be able to do the nature to them to be able to do the nature to them to be able to do the preaching and the teaching and the preaching and the teaching and the preaching and the teaching and the vision and the um and the you know vision and the um and the you know vision and the um and the you know building plans and all that kind of building plans and all that kind of building plans and all that kind of stuff. That's what they did. So when I stuff. That's what they did. So when I stuff. That's what they did. So when I stepped in I there were people probably stepped in I there were people probably stepped in I there were people probably making assumptions Jason's going to be making assumptions Jason's going to be making assumptions Jason's going to be want to be involved in the same things want to be involved in the same things want to be involved in the same things that David was. that wasn't necessarily that David was. that wasn't necessarily that David was. that wasn't necessarily true because David grew up with those true because David grew up with those true because David grew up with those things and and took those on and then things and and took those on and then things and and took those on and then there's things that I'm more interested there's things that I'm more interested there's things that I'm more interested in that David wasn't as interested in in that David wasn't as interested in in that David wasn't as interested in and that threw so there was a little bit and that threw so there was a little bit and that threw so there was a little bit of a a what what what were you I'll give of a a what what what were you I'll give of a a what what what were you I'll give you a perfect example this is silly I you a perfect example this is silly I you a perfect example this is silly I mean but it's and it's small very very mean but it's and it's small very very mean but it's and it's small very very simple one simple one simple one um how we engage critics on social media um how we engage critics on social media um how we engage critics on social media for the church I'm a little bit for the church I'm a little bit for the church I'm a little bit different David was very much kind of different David was very much kind of different David was very much kind of like who cares just ignore him whatever like who cares just ignore him whatever like who cares just ignore him whatever I'm a little bit more. Hey, if they're I'm a little bit more. Hey, if they're I'm a little bit more. Hey, if they're if they're disagree, if they get on our if they're disagree, if they get on our if they're disagree, if they get on our Facebook or, you know, Instagram, Facebook or, you know, Instagram, Facebook or, you know, Instagram, whatever, and they they disagree with whatever, and they they disagree with whatever, and they they disagree with something, ignore it. But if they're something, ignore it. But if they're something, ignore it. But if they're critiquing and they're or if they're critiquing and they're or if they're critiquing and they're or if they're lying about something, address it lying about something, address it lying about something, address it because because you're letting a lie because because you're letting a lie because because you're letting a lie live out there. And so that was a that live out there. And so that was a that live out there. And so that was a that was a little bit of a and that seems was a little bit of a and that seems was a little bit of a and that seems small, but that's a little from our small, but that's a little from our small, but that's a little from our social teams and and all them, you know, social teams and and all them, you know, social teams and and all them, you know, the people who are managing those the people who are managing those the people who are managing those accounts, all that, that's a little bit accounts, all that, that's a little bit accounts, all that, that's a little bit of a tweak and they didn't know. So that of a tweak and they didn't know. So that of a tweak and they didn't know. So that can feel like, oh, this is different.

can feel like, oh, this is different. can feel like, oh, this is different. Yeah, is a little bit different. So, you Yeah, is a little bit different. So, you Yeah, is a little bit different. So, you just bump into those things. Um, and I just bump into those things. Um, and I just bump into those things. Um, and I just found myself, again, it's not just found myself, again, it's not just found myself, again, it's not making assumptions. It's just going, making assumptions. It's just going, making assumptions. It's just going, okay, I've got to clarify. I probably okay, I've got to clarify. I probably okay, I've got to clarify. I probably got to even be more clear about these got to even be more clear about these got to even be more clear about these are the things that I'm interested in. are the things that I'm interested in. are the things that I'm interested in. These are things I'm not interested in. These are things I'm not interested in. These are things I'm not interested in. Um, so what have you learned about the Um, so what have you learned about the Um, so what have you learned about the weight of senior leadership? Or maybe weight of senior leadership? Or maybe weight of senior leadership? Or maybe you don't feel it the same way. Maybe you don't feel it the same way. Maybe you don't feel it the same way. Maybe you felt it exactly the same when you you felt it exactly the same when you you felt it exactly the same when you were in an associate role. No, no, it's were in an associate role. No, no, it's were in an associate role. No, no, it's different. No, it's different. Yeah. different. No, it's different. Yeah. different. No, it's different. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Um, well, what I think I've learned Um, well, what I think I've learned Um, well, what I think I've learned is the responsibility that we carry. Um, is the responsibility that we carry. Um, is the responsibility that we carry. Um, is we feel the weight of it and it will is we feel the weight of it and it will is we feel the weight of it and it will affect personal relationships and I can affect personal relationships and I can affect personal relationships and I can talk about that more if you want. Um, talk about that more if you want. Um, talk about that more if you want. Um, but I also um what what what probably but I also um what what what probably but I also um what what what probably struck me was the way that the weight of struck me was the way that the weight of struck me was the way that the weight of that responsibility gets played out. that responsibility gets played out. that responsibility gets played out. It's not just in the decisions. It's in It's not just in the decisions. It's in It's not just in the decisions. It's in how you carry yourself. It's in the how you carry yourself. It's in the how you carry yourself. It's in the words that you speak. Everything you do words that you speak. Everything you do words that you speak. Everything you do weighs 10 times more now. And now that weighs 10 times more now. And now that weighs 10 times more now. And now that can work for you or against you. Again, can work for you or against you. Again, can work for you or against you. Again, I'm more of an optimist. So, I'm going I'm more of an optimist. So, I'm going I'm more of an optimist. So, I'm going to go I I'll give you a good example.

to go I I'll give you a good example. to go I I'll give you a good example. Um, Carrie, one time I was walking Um, Carrie, one time I was walking Um, Carrie, one time I was walking through the office and someone was just through the office and someone was just through the office and someone was just telling me about something, a project telling me about something, a project telling me about something, a project they were working on they were working on they were working on and and I go after they told me this and and I go after they told me this and and I go after they told me this project, I go, "Huh?" And then I kept project, I go, "Huh?" And then I kept project, I go, "Huh?" And then I kept walking. Now, what I didn't know, cuz I walking. Now, what I didn't know, cuz I walking. Now, what I didn't know, cuz I just said that like, "That's just said that like, "That's just said that like, "That's interesting." What I didn't know is that interesting." What I didn't know is that interesting." What I didn't know is that sent them for the next hour and a half sent them for the next hour and a half sent them for the next hour and a half into a rethinking everything about that into a rethinking everything about that into a rethinking everything about that project because the way they project because the way they project because the way they interpreted, huh, was, "Oh, we must be interpreted, huh, was, "Oh, we must be interpreted, huh, was, "Oh, we must be missing something. You're not on board." missing something. You're not on board." missing something. You're not on board." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. which is not what I Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. which is not what I Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. which is not what I meant. But that's careless on my part. meant. But that's careless on my part. meant. But that's careless on my part. That's on me because that's not that's That's on me because that's not that's That's on me because that's not that's me not understanding the weight of uh my me not understanding the weight of uh my me not understanding the weight of uh my words and my actions. Um and so that's words and my actions. Um and so that's words and my actions. Um and so that's those are little things are wakeup those are little things are wakeup those are little things are wakeup calls. Now again, I don't want to be calls. Now again, I don't want to be calls. Now again, I don't want to be scared of that kind of stuff. To me, the scared of that kind of stuff. To me, the scared of that kind of stuff. To me, the optimist in me goes, "So here's where optimist in me goes, "So here's where optimist in me goes, "So here's where here's where the value is." one word of here's where the value is." one word of here's where the value is." one word of encouragement to a staff member that I encouragement to a staff member that I encouragement to a staff member that I see once you know we we've got lots and see once you know we we've got lots and see once you know we we've got lots and lots of staff spread out across the um a lots of staff spread out across the um a lots of staff spread out across the um a wide geographic region across the state.

wide geographic region across the state. wide geographic region across the state. So once a month everybody comes in and So once a month everybody comes in and So once a month everybody comes in and um if I can get 30 seconds with the um if I can get 30 seconds with the um if I can get 30 seconds with the staff one thing I can notice that they staff one thing I can notice that they staff one thing I can notice that they did that 30 seconds will last them six did that 30 seconds will last them six did that 30 seconds will last them six months. So, as far as encouragement months. So, as far as encouragement months. So, as far as encouragement goes, so I'm going to leverage that. goes, so I'm going to leverage that. goes, so I'm going to leverage that. But, but you have to understand that But, but you have to understand that But, but you have to understand that what you think is a thump, you know, I'm what you think is a thump, you know, I'm what you think is a thump, you know, I'm doing this with my finger right now for doing this with my finger right now for doing this with my finger right now for those are not watching, like a little those are not watching, like a little those are not watching, like a little thump feels like a punch to someone thump feels like a punch to someone thump feels like a punch to someone else. Uh, so that's what you have to be else. Uh, so that's what you have to be else. Uh, so that's what you have to be mindful of. And I think that's part of mindful of. And I think that's part of mindful of. And I think that's part of the weight. You know, we're talking the weight. You know, we're talking the weight. You know, we're talking about the weight of responsibility. That about the weight of responsibility. That about the weight of responsibility. That is part of the weightiness um uh of of is part of the weightiness um uh of of is part of the weightiness um uh of of of the role that you're in is of the role that you're in is of the role that you're in is understanding the impact that you have understanding the impact that you have understanding the impact that you have with everything. You mentioned with everything. You mentioned with everything. You mentioned relational dynamics and it's relational dynamics and it's relational dynamics and it's interesting. I imagine there's probably interesting. I imagine there's probably interesting. I imagine there's probably a handful of people on staff who thought a handful of people on staff who thought a handful of people on staff who thought I should be the new senior pastor, I should be the new senior pastor, I should be the new senior pastor, right? Not you. Um I'm wondering with right? Not you. Um I'm wondering with right? Not you. Um I'm wondering with the difference, the change in relational the difference, the change in relational the difference, the change in relational dynamics, what have you been noticing dynamics, what have you been noticing dynamics, what have you been noticing and how have you been addressing it? and how have you been addressing it? and how have you been addressing it? Well, you know, we were so Krie, we were Well, you know, we were so Krie, we were Well, you know, we were so Krie, we were so deliberate and and this goes to D.

so deliberate and and this goes to D. so deliberate and and this goes to D. This speaks to David. David was so This speaks to David. David was so This speaks to David. David was so deliberate in making this so painfully deliberate in making this so painfully deliberate in making this so painfully obvious to the church and to everyone obvious to the church and to everyone obvious to the church and to everyone else that his goal was when we announced else that his goal was when we announced else that his goal was when we announced it, everyone would go, "Yeah, duh." And it, everyone would go, "Yeah, duh." And it, everyone would go, "Yeah, duh." And exactly. Wait, that hasn't happened exactly. Wait, that hasn't happened exactly. Wait, that hasn't happened already. Yeah, that is exactly exact. already. Yeah, that is exactly exact. already. Yeah, that is exactly exact. Yeah. And that's exactly what happened. Yeah. And that's exactly what happened. Yeah. And that's exactly what happened. So, I don't So, I don't So, I don't feel we didn't feel or sense any like, feel we didn't feel or sense any like, feel we didn't feel or sense any like, oh, I could I should be doing that or I oh, I could I should be doing that or I oh, I could I should be doing that or I I could Oh, that's good. That's great. I could Oh, that's good. That's great. I could Oh, that's good. That's great. No, we we we didn't we didn't No, we we we didn't we didn't No, we we we didn't we didn't fortunately didn't have any of that. fortunately didn't have any of that. fortunately didn't have any of that. What what I noticed was that again the What what I noticed was that again the What what I noticed was that again the power dynamic shift in personal power dynamic shift in personal power dynamic shift in personal relationships, relationships that maybe relationships, relationships that maybe relationships, relationships that maybe you had with staff um uh that you were you had with staff um uh that you were you had with staff um uh that you were peers with, things like that. That's the peers with, things like that. That's the peers with, things like that. That's the shifts that are more nuanced that you shifts that are more nuanced that you shifts that are more nuanced that you have to I think had the emotional have to I think had the emotional have to I think had the emotional intelligence and maturity to to to dive intelligence and maturity to to to dive intelligence and maturity to to to dive into and to proactively bring up. There into and to proactively bring up. There into and to proactively bring up. There were people that I needed to meet with were people that I needed to meet with were people that I needed to meet with that I knew um they weren't upset about that I knew um they weren't upset about that I knew um they weren't upset about the decision. the decision. the decision. they had to be wondering though how will they had to be wondering though how will they had to be wondering though how will this affect me? Um you know and this affect me? Um you know and this affect me? Um you know and sometimes I think as leaders we under we sometimes I think as leaders we under we sometimes I think as leaders we under we because we're so optimistic we're vision because we're so optimistic we're vision because we're so optimistic we're vision mind and all that. We need to just step mind and all that. We need to just step mind and all that. We need to just step back every now and then and go hey it's back every now and then and go hey it's back every now and then and go hey it's okay for people to go yeah what does okay for people to go yeah what does okay for people to go yeah what does this mean for me? Um, I always remind this mean for me? Um, I always remind this mean for me? Um, I always remind people it's like when my my one time my people it's like when my my one time my people it's like when my my one time my kids um for pickup at their school, they kids um for pickup at their school, they kids um for pickup at their school, they were changing the pickup line and uh in were changing the pickup line and uh in were changing the pickup line and uh in the time of day and where it was the time of day and where it was the time of day and where it was happening and so they sent out this big happening and so they sent out this big happening and so they sent out this big long email about why they visioned it long email about why they visioned it long email about why they visioned it like crazy. It was like it was like like crazy. It was like it was like like crazy. It was like it was like eight pages of why this is better and

eight pages of why this is better and eight pages of why this is better and your kids's going to be safer and the your kids's going to be safer and the your kids's going to be safer and the philosophy behind it. And the only philosophy behind it. And the only philosophy behind it. And the only question I was like, so what time do I question I was like, so what time do I question I was like, so what time do I have to be there? Like because just tell have to be there? Like because just tell have to be there? Like because just tell me how this affects me. Yeah. And um me how this affects me. Yeah. And um me how this affects me. Yeah. And um that's not a bad thing. And and so I that's not a bad thing. And and so I that's not a bad thing. And and so I think sometimes we just need to as when think sometimes we just need to as when think sometimes we just need to as when we're stepping into roles like that or we're stepping into roles like that or we're stepping into roles like that or just just have the maturity to go and just just have the maturity to go and just just have the maturity to go and proactively address that with some proactively address that with some proactively address that with some people. And I knew there were a few people. And I knew there were a few people. And I knew there were a few people I needed to say, hey, you're people I needed to say, hey, you're people I needed to say, hey, you're probably wondering about some of this. I probably wondering about some of this. I probably wondering about some of this. I just want to be like, let's talk it out. just want to be like, let's talk it out. just want to be like, let's talk it out. I don't want them wondering in their I don't want them wondering in their I don't want them wondering in their head and and coming up with answers that head and and coming up with answers that head and and coming up with answers that might not even be true. Um and so that might not even be true. Um and so that might not even be true. Um and so that was one aspect. I think there was was one aspect. I think there was was one aspect. I think there was another aspect of relational dynamics another aspect of relational dynamics another aspect of relational dynamics though that was though that was though that was you know, Sam Chan. I don't I don't know you know, Sam Chan. I don't I don't know you know, Sam Chan. I don't I don't know if you know Sam or not, but um Sam a if you know Sam or not, but um Sam a if you know Sam or not, but um Sam a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's he's little bit. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's he's little bit. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's he's another guy we have on the podcast. He's another guy we have on the podcast. He's another guy we have on the podcast. He's become a friend and and he's so wise and become a friend and and he's so wise and become a friend and and he's so wise and he says that, you know, every now and he says that, you know, every now and he says that, you know, every now and then he'll talk to people and they'll then he'll talk to people and they'll then he'll talk to people and they'll say, um, oh, I'm thinking about going say, um, oh, I'm thinking about going say, um, oh, I'm thinking about going and I have a college buddy that I grew and I have a college buddy that I grew and I have a college buddy that I grew up with and he started a church out here up with and he started a church out here up with and he started a church out here and he wants me to come work with him to and he wants me to come work with him to and he wants me to come work with him to to to be his executive pastor now. And to to be his executive pastor now. And to to be his executive pastor now. And Sam said he always like calls the time Sam said he always like calls the time Sam said he always like calls the time out. He's like, "Hold up, hold up.

out. He's like, "Hold up, hold up. out. He's like, "Hold up, hold up. You're not going to work with him. You're not going to work with him. You're not going to work with him. you're going to work for him. And unless you're going to work for him. And unless you're going to work for him. And unless you understand that, you are setting you understand that, you are setting you understand that, you are setting yourself up for disaster. And that's a yourself up for disaster. And that's a yourself up for disaster. And that's a little bit of that what I'm talking little bit of that what I'm talking little bit of that what I'm talking about is there's a shift that happens about is there's a shift that happens about is there's a shift that happens interpersonally. And you've got to um I interpersonally. And you've got to um I interpersonally. And you've got to um I think you got to address that and think you got to address that and think you got to address that and especially with personal relation like especially with personal relation like especially with personal relation like like people that you're close to um and like people that you're close to um and like people that you're close to um and and probably just call it out and go, and probably just call it out and go, and probably just call it out and go, "Hey, things will probably change." A "Hey, things will probably change." A "Hey, things will probably change." A lot of leaders lose friends when they lot of leaders lose friends when they lot of leaders lose friends when they step into the senior role. you used to step into the senior role. you used to step into the senior role. you used to be colleagues and now all of a sudden be colleagues and now all of a sudden be colleagues and now all of a sudden you're their boss. Did you have that you're their boss. Did you have that you're their boss. Did you have that dynamic at play at all? Uh yeah. Yeah, I dynamic at play at all? Uh yeah. Yeah, I dynamic at play at all? Uh yeah. Yeah, I did. And um it was uh there there's been did. And um it was uh there there's been did. And um it was uh there there's been some pain with that. Um and um partly some pain with that. Um and um partly some pain with that. Um and um partly because you just have to live with the because you just have to live with the because you just have to live with the reality leaders. some of the leadership reality leaders. some of the leadership reality leaders. some of the leadership pain pain pain leaders willingly are stepping into when leaders willingly are stepping into when leaders willingly are stepping into when we take on the role of leadership is we we take on the role of leadership is we we take on the role of leadership is we will be misunderstood and you got to will be misunderstood and you got to will be misunderstood and you got to accept that. Um and some of it was I'm accept that. Um and some of it was I'm accept that. Um and some of it was I'm going to be misunderstood and that's going to be misunderstood and that's going to be misunderstood and that's okay. Um but yeah, no that happened. I okay. Um but yeah, no that happened. I okay. Um but yeah, no that happened. I would say that was even more painful for would say that was even more painful for would say that was even more painful for Jenny to be honest.

Jenny to be honest. Jenny to be honest. Um because there's an aspect of it, Um because there's an aspect of it, Um because there's an aspect of it, Carrie, when we're like we're in it and Carrie, when we're like we're in it and Carrie, when we're like we're in it and we're, you know, in you get the upside. we're, you know, in you get the upside. we're, you know, in you get the upside. She get the downside. Yeah. And that was She get the downside. Yeah. And that was She get the downside. Yeah. And that was that was very very hard um for her and that was very very hard um for her and that was very very hard um for her and and some of the decision like some of and some of the decision like some of and some of the decision like some of it's happening because of decisions I it's happening because of decisions I it's happening because of decisions I made and she's in there going but I made and she's in there going but I made and she's in there going but I didn't I didn't make that decision. So, didn't I didn't make that decision. So, didn't I didn't make that decision. So, um, she just has to live in the wake. um, she just has to live in the wake. um, she just has to live in the wake. And our spouses, I think, sometimes have And our spouses, I think, sometimes have And our spouses, I think, sometimes have to live in the wake. And I think we just to live in the wake. And I think we just to live in the wake. And I think we just need to be aware of that. That's very need to be aware of that. That's very need to be aware of that. That's very hard for them. All right. I want to hard for them. All right. I want to hard for them. All right. I want to touch on a few things sort of rapid touch on a few things sort of rapid touch on a few things sort of rapid fire. They're not rapid fire, but but fire. They're not rapid fire, but but fire. They're not rapid fire, but but we're going to we're going to try. Um, we're going to we're going to try. Um, we're going to we're going to try. Um, second generation leadership is second generation leadership is second generation leadership is different than first generation different than first generation different than first generation leadership, right? Like you said, the leadership, right? Like you said, the leadership, right? Like you said, the founders, you are the chief cook and founders, you are the chief cook and founders, you are the chief cook and bottle washer. when you start something bottle washer. when you start something bottle washer. when you start something from scratch or start when it's very from scratch or start when it's very from scratch or start when it's very small and you got to do everything. I've small and you got to do everything. I've small and you got to do everything. I've I've been there and then all of a sudden I've been there and then all of a sudden I've been there and then all of a sudden you're leading this massive 25 location you're leading this massive 25 location you're leading this massive 25 location thing. Um but you inherit a large tens thing. Um but you inherit a large tens thing. Um but you inherit a large tens of thousands of people call this church of thousands of people call this church of thousands of people call this church home, tens of thousands attend home, tens of thousands attend home, tens of thousands attend organization. What are you noticing organization. What are you noticing organization. What are you noticing about the skill set that second about the skill set that second about the skill set that second generation leaders need versus first generation leaders need versus first generation leaders need versus first generation?

Yeah, I think that Yeah, I think that um well, one's a character thing and um well, one's a character thing and um well, one's a character thing and then I can talk about skill set. One, then I can talk about skill set. One, then I can talk about skill set. One, one is this is a little bit more of a one is this is a little bit more of a one is this is a little bit more of a character thing. Second generation character thing. Second generation character thing. Second generation leaders, you have to you cannot be leaders, you have to you cannot be leaders, you have to you cannot be threatened by nostalgia. You cannot take threatened by nostalgia. You cannot take threatened by nostalgia. You cannot take nostalgia personally and you will have nostalgia personally and you will have nostalgia personally and you will have people, in fact, you want that. You people, in fact, you want that. You people, in fact, you want that. You you're going to have people who talk you're going to have people who talk you're going to have people who talk about the good old days and talk about about the good old days and talk about about the good old days and talk about how it was back then. And if you take how it was back then. And if you take how it was back then. And if you take that as a criticism of your leadership, that as a criticism of your leadership, that as a criticism of your leadership, you you're you're you're going to you you're you're you're going to you you're you're you're going to spiral. And so you have to give space to spiral. And so you have to give space to spiral. And so you have to give space to honor the past. And I think some second honor the past. And I think some second honor the past. And I think some second generation leaders struggle with that a generation leaders struggle with that a generation leaders struggle with that a little bit because they take that little bit because they take that little bit because they take that personally. You just can't you can't go personally. You just can't you can't go personally. You just can't you can't go there. Um and you learn that because there. Um and you learn that because there. Um and you learn that because I've seen that dynamic be very real. I've seen that dynamic be very real. I've seen that dynamic be very real. People talk about the good old days and People talk about the good old days and People talk about the good old days and do you remember when and it's like well do you remember when and it's like well do you remember when and it's like well that wasn't on my watch. H how how did that wasn't on my watch. H how how did that wasn't on my watch. H how how did you get to the point where you're secure you get to the point where you're secure you get to the point where you're secure with that? Well, Jesus, Well, Jesus, good answer. Well, I mean, in all good answer. Well, I mean, in all good answer. Well, I mean, in all seriousness, you know, there was a lot seriousness, you know, there was a lot seriousness, you know, there was a lot of work that I mean, I kind of I'm being of work that I mean, I kind of I'm being of work that I mean, I kind of I'm being serious. I mean, like there there was a serious. I mean, like there there was a serious. I mean, like there there was a lot of work God had to do in my heart.

lot of work God had to do in my heart. lot of work God had to do in my heart. You know, when we were going through the You know, when we were going through the You know, when we were going through the whole process, Carrie, one of the things whole process, Carrie, one of the things whole process, Carrie, one of the things I feel like one one of the phrases that I feel like one one of the phrases that I feel like one one of the phrases that I feel God kind of gave me through it I feel God kind of gave me through it I feel God kind of gave me through it that guided me and helped me was, that guided me and helped me was, that guided me and helped me was, "You're not "You're not "You're not auditioning because everything that auditioning because everything that auditioning because everything that matters most about you has already been matters most about you has already been matters most about you has already been settled on the cross." settled on the cross." settled on the cross." That's freeing That's freeing That's freeing and bec and if that's true and there's and bec and if that's true and there's and bec and if that's true and there's days I struggle to believe that but now days I struggle to believe that but now days I struggle to believe that but now I would say it's it's embedded in my I would say it's it's embedded in my I would say it's it's embedded in my heart. I'm not auditioning because heart. I'm not auditioning because heart. I'm not auditioning because everything that matters most about me everything that matters most about me everything that matters most about me has already been settled. And that's why has already been settled. And that's why has already been settled. And that's why when when when when when when when when when that is tattooed and branded on your that is tattooed and branded on your that is tattooed and branded on your heart heart heart um you're able to take criticism without um you're able to take criticism without um you're able to take criticism without being crushed by it. You're able to being crushed by it. You're able to being crushed by it. You're able to honor the past without feeling honor the past without feeling honor the past without feeling threatened. You're able to go into hard threatened. You're able to go into hard threatened. You're able to go into hard situations with joy. U with a certain situations with joy. U with a certain situations with joy. U with a certain kind of joy. You know, it's not always kind of joy. You know, it's not always kind of joy. You know, it's not always joyful, but a certain kind of joy and joyful, but a certain kind of joy and joyful, but a certain kind of joy and peace. Um you're able to preach out of a peace. Um you're able to preach out of a peace. Um you're able to preach out of a place of love and not need. Um and I place of love and not need. Um and I place of love and not need. Um and I felt freed with some of that. And again, felt freed with some of that. And again, felt freed with some of that. And again, I'm not trying to pretend that doesn't I'm not trying to pretend that doesn't I'm not trying to pretend that doesn't creep up because it does creep up. But I creep up because it does creep up. But I creep up because it does creep up. But I would say there was a fundamental shift would say there was a fundamental shift would say there was a fundamental shift in me about six years ago where God had in me about six years ago where God had in me about six years ago where God had to do a lot of work and remind me of to do a lot of work and remind me of to do a lot of work and remind me of that and it did it embedded itself into that and it did it embedded itself into that and it did it embedded itself into my heart. And so honestly Carrie I still

my heart. And so honestly Carrie I still my heart. And so honestly Carrie I still tell myself that and so if I feel threat tell myself that and so if I feel threat tell myself that and so if I feel threat and I I do I feel threatened at time and and I I do I feel threatened at time and and I I do I feel threatened at time and I feel like I feel angry about like what I feel like I feel angry about like what I feel like I feel angry about like what what do you and I have to come back to what do you and I have to come back to what do you and I have to come back to that. I'm not auditioning. What what am that. I'm not auditioning. What what am that. I'm not auditioning. What what am I doing here? this isn't mine to begin I doing here? this isn't mine to begin I doing here? this isn't mine to begin with and I'm not auditioning because with and I'm not auditioning because with and I'm not auditioning because everything that matters most about me everything that matters most about me everything that matters most about me has already been settled on the cross. has already been settled on the cross. has already been settled on the cross. So I can celebrate what happened then. I So I can celebrate what happened then. I So I can celebrate what happened then. I can celebrate that David was better than can celebrate that David was better than can celebrate that David was better than me at those things. I can it's not I can me at those things. I can it's not I can me at those things. I can it's not I can accept it. I can celebrate those things. accept it. I can celebrate those things. accept it. I can celebrate those things. So it was a it was a heart work man that So it was a it was a heart work man that So it was a it was a heart work man that that that needed to happen to me. Um, that that needed to happen to me. Um, that that needed to happen to me. Um, I really appreciate you sharing that. I really appreciate you sharing that. I really appreciate you sharing that. And you are not the first person I have And you are not the first person I have And you are not the first person I have met that has struggled with that. It's met that has struggled with that. It's met that has struggled with that. It's almost like you're tempted to criticize almost like you're tempted to criticize almost like you're tempted to criticize the past because it makes you look good, the past because it makes you look good, the past because it makes you look good, right? Or dismiss it. Uh, so the first right? Or dismiss it. Uh, so the first right? Or dismiss it. Uh, so the first thing is character. What was the second thing is character. What was the second thing is character. What was the second thing you were going to talk about? thing you were going to talk about? thing you were going to talk about? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because it it's the difference between building it it's the difference between building it it's the difference between building a home and and moving into a home that's a home and and moving into a home that's a home and and moving into a home that's already been been built, right? In a already been been built, right? In a already been been built, right? In a sense, and a founder built the thing.

sense, and a founder built the thing. sense, and a founder built the thing. They they know the foundations and all They they know the foundations and all They they know the foundations and all that. And when I'm coming in second that. And when I'm coming in second that. And when I'm coming in second generation, I I do have the By the way, generation, I I do have the By the way, generation, I I do have the By the way, I I'm unique in a sense that I was here I I'm unique in a sense that I was here I I'm unique in a sense that I was here for 20 years. So many of the decisions for 20 years. So many of the decisions for 20 years. So many of the decisions that were made and all that, I was a that were made and all that, I was a that were made and all that, I was a part of those decisions. Um, but I would part of those decisions. Um, but I would part of those decisions. Um, but I would say that one of the things a second say that one of the things a second say that one of the things a second generation leader needs to do is they generation leader needs to do is they generation leader needs to do is they need to remember there's a reason the need to remember there's a reason the need to remember there's a reason the walls are where they are. There's a walls are where they are. There's a walls are where they are. There's a reason why the foundations laid. There's reason why the foundations laid. There's reason why the foundations laid. There's a reason why that room was added over a reason why that room was added over a reason why that room was added over there in the house. There's a reason. there in the house. There's a reason. there in the house. There's a reason. So, you can't dismiss those things out So, you can't dismiss those things out So, you can't dismiss those things out even though you might see that you want even though you might see that you want even though you might see that you want to redecorate a little bit. Um, so I to redecorate a little bit. Um, so I to redecorate a little bit. Um, so I would say it's being mindful that the would say it's being mindful that the would say it's being mindful that the that the and the reason you're there, by that the and the reason you're there, by that the and the reason you're there, by the way, is because you love the home. the way, is because you love the home. the way, is because you love the home. you might want to redecorate and you you might want to redecorate and you you might want to redecorate and you might have some additions and and all might have some additions and and all might have some additions and and all that, but you love the home or else you that, but you love the home or else you that, but you love the home or else you wouldn't be there. And so remember that. wouldn't be there. And so remember that. wouldn't be there. And so remember that. And um so I I I would just say that's And um so I I I would just say that's And um so I I I would just say that's that's more of a posture again and maybe that's more of a posture again and maybe that's more of a posture again and maybe more of a framing concept. Um I I I I more of a framing concept. Um I I I I more of a framing concept. Um I I I I would think that what the the second would think that what the the second would think that what the the second generation leader needs to generation leader needs to generation leader needs to um needs to be very very very um needs to be very very very um needs to be very very very um committed to clarifying and coming um committed to clarifying and coming um committed to clarifying and coming back to what will never change. This is back to what will never change. This is back to what will never change. This is what will never change. This is what what will never change. This is what what will never change. This is what will never change. This what will never will never change. This what will never will never change. This what will never change. And it's and it's what is it?

change. And it's and it's what is it? change. And it's and it's what is it? It's the mission, vision, and values It's the mission, vision, and values It's the mission, vision, and values almost always, right? and and so our almost always, right? and and so our almost always, right? and and so our church was built on the idea that we'll church was built on the idea that we'll church was built on the idea that we'll do anything to reach lost people. That do anything to reach lost people. That do anything to reach lost people. That will never change. The home may look a will never change. The home may look a will never change. The home may look a little different. We might redecorate, little different. We might redecorate, little different. We might redecorate, you know, we we might do some additions you know, we we might do some additions you know, we we might do some additions and all that kind of, but that's never and all that kind of, but that's never and all that kind of, but that's never changing. And I think as a second changing. And I think as a second changing. And I think as a second generation, being mindful of that and generation, being mindful of that and generation, being mindful of that and giving voice to that puts people at ease giving voice to that puts people at ease giving voice to that puts people at ease and also I think inspires confidence and also I think inspires confidence and also I think inspires confidence that um that the foundation isn't going that um that the foundation isn't going that um that the foundation isn't going to shift. to shift. to shift. Um, and then you know one one other Um, and then you know one one other Um, and then you know one one other thing Carrie I mean I would just say is thing Carrie I mean I would just say is thing Carrie I mean I would just say is like I I just had to learn I had to like I I just had to learn I had to like I I just had to learn I had to learn all the business acumen stuff from learn all the business acumen stuff from learn all the business acumen stuff from from a from just what we do as a church. from a from just what we do as a church. from a from just what we do as a church. David created it. I had to I had to dive David created it. I had to I had to dive David created it. I had to I had to dive deep into it and and again it was deep into it and and again it was deep into it and and again it was already there because it was sort of I already there because it was sort of I already there because it was sort of I was here for 20 years but I had to dive was here for 20 years but I had to dive was here for 20 years but I had to dive deep to put it into my own words. So deep to put it into my own words. So deep to put it into my own words. So like a great example is um we know like a great example is um we know like a great example is um we know someone asked me this was like three someone asked me this was like three someone asked me this was like three this was right after the transition this was right after the transition this was right after the transition happened and we were um we were uh we've happened and we were um we were uh we've happened and we were um we were uh we've just seen incredible growth. It's been just seen incredible growth. It's been just seen incredible growth. It's been pretty amazing to watch what God's done pretty amazing to watch what God's done pretty amazing to watch what God's done in the last few years. Um and someone in the last few years. Um and someone in the last few years. Um and someone asked me over dinner one night. They go, asked me over dinner one night. They go, asked me over dinner one night. They go, "Why are you growing? Why do you think "Why are you growing? Why do you think "Why are you growing? Why do you think LCBC is growing like it is?" And I had a LCBC is growing like it is?" And I had a LCBC is growing like it is?" And I had a I I didn't I I I was so exposed. I I I didn't I I I was so exposed. I I I didn't I I I was so exposed. I didn't have a good answer and and that

didn't have a good answer and and that didn't have a good answer and and that bothered me. And so I went back and I bothered me. And so I went back and I bothered me. And so I went back and I dug in and and by the way, everyone dug in and and by the way, everyone dug in and and by the way, everyone should have an answer to that question. should have an answer to that question. should have an answer to that question. Why is God, you know, if your church is Why is God, you know, if your church is Why is God, you know, if your church is growing? Why? Why? And the way to get to growing? Why? Why? And the way to get to growing? Why? Why? And the way to get to that answer is not complicated. All you that answer is not complicated. All you that answer is not complicated. All you need to do is listen to your people. Why need to do is listen to your people. Why need to do is listen to your people. Why are they coming back? Why are they are they coming back? Why are they are they coming back? Why are they coming? Why are they coming back? And coming? Why are they coming back? And coming? Why are they coming back? And why are they bringing people with them? why are they bringing people with them? why are they bringing people with them? And you listen to those themes and And you listen to those themes and And you listen to those themes and that's that's what you your focus is. that's that's what you your focus is. that's that's what you your focus is. And so for us, relevant gatherings that And so for us, relevant gatherings that And so for us, relevant gatherings that are simple and applicable. That's why are simple and applicable. That's why are simple and applicable. That's why because our g people tell us all the because our g people tell us all the because our g people tell us all the time, I felt like you guys were talking time, I felt like you guys were talking time, I felt like you guys were talking right to me. I I for the first time I right to me. I I for the first time I right to me. I I for the first time I understood the Bible. The worship was so understood the Bible. The worship was so understood the Bible. The worship was so engaging. The second one is dynamic kid engaging. The second one is dynamic kid engaging. The second one is dynamic kid and student ministry. You know, you come and student ministry. You know, you come and student ministry. You know, you come and you have a great experience in the and you have a great experience in the and you have a great experience in the gathering and your kids go, "Man, people gathering and your kids go, "Man, people gathering and your kids go, "Man, people were mean to me. You're not coming were mean to me. You're not coming were mean to me. You're not coming back." You know, uh so we got to have back." You know, uh so we got to have back." You know, uh so we got to have and and we have a responsibility to to and and we have a responsibility to to and and we have a responsibility to to to prepare this next generation to hand to prepare this next generation to hand to prepare this next generation to hand this church to them. The third thing for this church to them. The third thing for this church to them. The third thing for us is um it's easy to be needed and us is um it's easy to be needed and us is um it's easy to be needed and known here. People tell us all the time, known here. People tell us all the time, known here. People tell us all the time, I just felt like I came in. I felt like I just felt like I came in. I felt like I just felt like I came in. I felt like I met people right away. I felt like I I met people right away. I felt like I I met people right away. I felt like I could um it was easy to get plugged in.

could um it was easy to get plugged in. could um it was easy to get plugged in. All that kind of stuff. And the last one All that kind of stuff. And the last one All that kind of stuff. And the last one is we shock people with personal care is we shock people with personal care is we shock people with personal care and follow-through. People tell us all and follow-through. People tell us all and follow-through. People tell us all the time, I cannot believe, you know, the time, I cannot believe, you know, the time, I cannot believe, you know, one of the things we do, Carrie, we one of the things we do, Carrie, we one of the things we do, Carrie, we still do this to this day. The second still do this to this day. The second still do this to this day. The second time you come, and I don't know many time you come, and I don't know many time you come, and I don't know many churches that still do checkin, we still churches that still do checkin, we still churches that still do checkin, we still do check in at at the size. And it's do check in at at the size. And it's do check in at at the size. And it's it's a it's crazy how many I mean like it's a it's crazy how many I mean like it's a it's crazy how many I mean like so thousands and thousands thousands of so thousands and thousands thousands of so thousands and thousands thousands of people tell let us know every every week people tell let us know every every week people tell let us know every every week I'm here and lots and hundreds of I'm here and lots and hundreds of I'm here and lots and hundreds of first-time guests every week. The second first-time guests every week. The second first-time guests every week. The second time you check in, we deliver homemade time you check in, we deliver homemade time you check in, we deliver homemade cookies to your doorstep. It doesn't cookies to your doorstep. It doesn't cookies to your doorstep. It doesn't matter where you are. Doesn't matter. matter where you are. Doesn't matter. matter where you are. Doesn't matter. We'll do it anywhere. That was true when We'll do it anywhere. That was true when We'll do it anywhere. That was true when we had 10 people. It's true if we've got we had 10 people. It's true if we've got we had 10 people. It's true if we've got 500 in a particular week we've got to go 500 in a particular week we've got to go 500 in a particular week we've got to go do. We're doing it. That's shocking do. We're doing it. That's shocking do. We're doing it. That's shocking people with your personal care and people with your personal care and people with your personal care and followthrough. And so that's our four followthrough. And so that's our four followthrough. And so that's our four things and we obsess over those. We things and we obsess over those. We things and we obsess over those. We focus on those. It's like these four focus on those. It's like these four focus on those. It's like these four things we got to do great. And my point things we got to do great. And my point things we got to do great. And my point is I had to as a as a second generation is I had to as a as a second generation is I had to as a as a second generation I had to go and find that. I knew it. It I had to go and find that. I knew it. It I had to go and find that. I knew it. It was all in the air already. I didn't was all in the air already. I didn't was all in the air already. I didn't build that necessarily, but I had to build that necessarily, but I had to build that necessarily, but I had to go dig into that, find it, put it in my go dig into that, find it, put it in my go dig into that, find it, put it in my words, and now clarify it for everybody words, and now clarify it for everybody words, and now clarify it for everybody else. So, I'm not sure if that's helpful else. So, I'm not sure if that's helpful else. So, I'm not sure if that's helpful or not, but it it it's just digging into or not, but it it it's just digging into or not, but it it it's just digging into the things that are intuitive to you.

the things that are intuitive to you. the things that are intuitive to you. Yeah. And clarifying them. So, you're Yeah. And clarifying them. So, you're Yeah. And clarifying them. So, you're taking me back 20 years. The whole taking me back 20 years. The whole taking me back 20 years. The whole check-in idea. I remember even as a kid check-in idea. I remember even as a kid check-in idea. I remember even as a kid there was the I think what do they call there was the I think what do they call there was the I think what do they call it? The ritual of friendship or it? The ritual of friendship or it? The ritual of friendship or something. It was some kind of like form something. It was some kind of like form something. It was some kind of like form you filled out every week and then it you filled out every week and then it you filled out every week and then it went digital and then most churches went digital and then most churches went digital and then most churches dropped it. And the whole idea that on dropped it. And the whole idea that on dropped it. And the whole idea that on your first or second visit, I I know one your first or second visit, I I know one your first or second visit, I I know one of my mentors, he had like a loaf of of my mentors, he had like a loaf of of my mentors, he had like a loaf of bread that would be delivered to your bread that would be delivered to your bread that would be delivered to your house. And it feels so old school, but house. And it feels so old school, but house. And it feels so old school, but you're suggesting that that is really you're suggesting that that is really you're suggesting that that is really working today. Do you want to say more working today. Do you want to say more working today. Do you want to say more about that? Listen, we this is a big about that? Listen, we this is a big about that? Listen, we this is a big focus for us right now. We, you know, focus for us right now. We, you know, focus for us right now. We, you know, every year it's not even just related to every year it's not even just related to every year it's not even just related to a year, but we kind of move in seasons a year, but we kind of move in seasons a year, but we kind of move in seasons of themes. Okay. the theme for us right of themes. Okay. the theme for us right of themes. Okay. the theme for us right now that I kind of put in front of our now that I kind of put in front of our now that I kind of put in front of our staff in January, put in front of our staff in January, put in front of our staff in January, put in front of our church. I don't know if it'll be a year, church. I don't know if it'll be a year, church. I don't know if it'll be a year, I don't know if it be two years, doesn't I don't know if it be two years, doesn't I don't know if it be two years, doesn't really matter. For right now, it's a really matter. For right now, it's a really matter. For right now, it's a theme and it'll be a theme until feels theme and it'll be a theme until feels theme and it'll be a theme until feels like we um it's not. Make it personal. like we um it's not. Make it personal. like we um it's not. Make it personal. That's it. Make it personal. We tell our That's it. Make it personal. We tell our That's it. Make it personal. We tell our staff all the time, I try to tell them, staff all the time, I try to tell them, staff all the time, I try to tell them, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, "Look, your job is different than your "Look, your job is different than your "Look, your job is different than your responsibility. You can do your job and responsibility. You can do your job and responsibility. You can do your job and not carry out your responsibilities.

not carry out your responsibilities. not carry out your responsibilities. Your job is the stuff that's on the Your job is the stuff that's on the Your job is the stuff that's on the description, but your responsibility is description, but your responsibility is description, but your responsibility is to be personally invested in people's to be personally invested in people's to be personally invested in people's lives. That's all the job description is lives. That's all the job description is lives. That's all the job description is an excuse to do that and to make it an excuse to do that and to make it an excuse to do that and to make it personal. So the thing, you know, personal. So the thing, you know, personal. So the thing, you know, Carrie, for us as leaders, one of the Carrie, for us as leaders, one of the Carrie, for us as leaders, one of the things that we're trying to do as things that we're trying to do as things that we're trying to do as leaders always is look around corners leaders always is look around corners leaders always is look around corners that other people aren't looking around that other people aren't looking around that other people aren't looking around and saying, "Hey, it's not disruptive and saying, "Hey, it's not disruptive and saying, "Hey, it's not disruptive now. It's not an issue now, but it could now. It's not an issue now, but it could now. It's not an issue now, but it could be." And then you go, "Let's fix it now be." And then you go, "Let's fix it now be." And then you go, "Let's fix it now before it becomes an issue." And um for before it becomes an issue." And um for before it becomes an issue." And um for me, as I look around a corner right now, me, as I look around a corner right now, me, as I look around a corner right now, we're more organized than ever before. we're more organized than ever before. we're more organized than ever before. We're more struct like, you know, to get We're more struct like, you know, to get We're more struct like, you know, to get to 25 locations, you got to be really to 25 locations, you got to be really to 25 locations, you got to be really tight on your system. Got to be so tight on your system. Got to be so tight on your system. Got to be so dialed in. You got to be dialed in. We dialed in. You got to be dialed in. We dialed in. You got to be dialed in. We know what we do. All that kind of stuff. know what we do. All that kind of stuff. know what we do. All that kind of stuff. Here's my one of my biggest fears right Here's my one of my biggest fears right Here's my one of my biggest fears right now is that because of that, we've got a now is that because of that, we've got a now is that because of that, we've got a bunch of staff who just run plays bunch of staff who just run plays bunch of staff who just run plays without thinking. So, they're running without thinking. So, they're running without thinking. So, they're running the plays because they got it. It's like the plays because they got it. It's like the plays because they got it. It's like and it loses its soul and we forget it and it loses its soul and we forget it and it loses its soul and we forget it was John that got us into this. It was John that got us into this. It was John that got us into this. It wasn't to run plays. It was that one wasn't to run plays. It was that one wasn't to run plays. It was that one person, right? It was ministry. And so person, right? It was ministry. And so person, right? It was ministry. And so the thing we're talking about a ton now, the thing we're talking about a ton now, the thing we're talking about a ton now, I keep telling them is the bigger we I keep telling them is the bigger we I keep telling them is the bigger we get, the smaller we have to feel to get, the smaller we have to feel to get, the smaller we have to feel to people. People don't care about how big people. People don't care about how big people. People don't care about how big the church is. They care. They only care the church is. They care. They only care the church is. They care. They only care about did you notice me when I walked about did you notice me when I walked about did you notice me when I walked in? Do you have a place for me? Was it in? Do you have a place for me? Was it in? Do you have a place for me? Was it real? Did you know? So, so when we talk real? Did you know? So, so when we talk real? Did you know? So, so when we talk about make it personal, this is a huge about make it personal, this is a huge about make it personal, this is a huge issue for us right now. And one of the issue for us right now. And one of the issue for us right now. And one of the things that we've we that we've done to things that we've we that we've done to things that we've we that we've done to support that is like we run a what we support that is like we run a what we support that is like we run a what we call a an attendee onboarding process.

call a an attendee onboarding process. call a an attendee onboarding process. We actually ran this for 18 months. We We actually ran this for 18 months. We We actually ran this for 18 months. We we tweaked it and did a bunch of AB we tweaked it and did a bunch of AB we tweaked it and did a bunch of AB testing and all this kind of stuff. And testing and all this kind of stuff. And testing and all this kind of stuff. And here's what we found. Um we can show you here's what we found. Um we can show you here's what we found. Um we can show you the data on this. This is for LCBC at the data on this. This is for LCBC at the data on this. This is for LCBC at least. And my guess is it's probably least. And my guess is it's probably least. And my guess is it's probably true for everywhere. But a person who true for everywhere. But a person who true for everywhere. But a person who has 10 personal contacts, so a has 10 personal contacts, so a has 10 personal contacts, so a first-time guest who comes and they have first-time guest who comes and they have first-time guest who comes and they have 10 personal contacts within the within 10 personal contacts within the within 10 personal contacts within the within 16 weeks of their first visit is 16 weeks of their first visit is 16 weeks of their first visit is 280% more likely to be at church a year 280% more likely to be at church a year 280% more likely to be at church a year from now than a person who did not. 10 from now than a person who did not. 10 from now than a person who did not. 10 seems to be that that that m we What is seems to be that that that m we What is seems to be that that that m we What is a personal contact? So we define those a personal contact? So we define those a personal contact? So we define those um and I'm not going to be able to um and I'm not going to be able to um and I'm not going to be able to probably list all of them. A personal probably list all of them. A personal probably list all of them. A personal connect we we have like a a list of six connect we we have like a a list of six connect we we have like a a list of six that count as a personal connection. So that count as a personal connection. So that count as a personal connection. So that can be um a that can be literally a that can be um a that can be literally a that can be um a that can be literally a phone call. Uh that could be an atrium phone call. Uh that could be an atrium phone call. Uh that could be an atrium conversation. Um and then you would log conversation. Um and then you would log conversation. Um and then you would log you'd mark that. Um that can be um you'd mark that. Um that can be um you'd mark that. Um that can be um cookie drops that I was just telling you cookie drops that I was just telling you cookie drops that I was just telling you about. That's a that's a personal about. That's a that's a personal about. That's a that's a personal connection um that happens after your connection um that happens after your connection um that happens after your second time. And so we have a whole second time. And so we have a whole second time. And so we have a whole process. We call it our attendee process. We call it our attendee process. We call it our attendee onboarding process. And so we have a onboarding process. And so we have a onboarding process. And so we have a play that our staff runs now um to play that our staff runs now um to play that our staff runs now um to within that first 16 weeks, we know how within that first 16 weeks, we know how within that first 16 weeks, we know how to get you 10 connection points. And to get you 10 connection points. And to get you 10 connection points. And again, you're 280% more likely to be again, you're 280% more likely to be again, you're 280% more likely to be around a year from now than someone who around a year from now than someone who around a year from now than someone who got six. Um and we don't do a perfect, got six. Um and we don't do a perfect, got six. Um and we don't do a perfect, but it is a process and we hold but it is a process and we hold but it is a process and we hold accountable to that. I I think what I'm accountable to that. I I think what I'm accountable to that. I I think what I'm trying to get at um is this this right trying to get at um is this this right trying to get at um is this this right now is the thing for us to how to make a now is the thing for us to how to make a now is the thing for us to how to make a big church feel small. We have to keep

big church feel small. We have to keep big church feel small. We have to keep innovating around these way in these innovating around these way in these innovating around these way in these areas. We have to keep pushing in these areas. We have to keep pushing in these areas. We have to keep pushing in these areas. Um and this is a huge huge focus areas. Um and this is a huge huge focus areas. Um and this is a huge huge focus for us right now. Just so people know, for us right now. Just so people know, for us right now. Just so people know, how many people are attending on a how many people are attending on a how many people are attending on a weekend now? Typically we've got about weekend now? Typically we've got about weekend now? Typically we've got about we've got about 20 we bump we'll bump up we've got about 20 we bump we'll bump up we've got about 20 we bump we'll bump up to 20,000 in the rooms and we online is to 20,000 in the rooms and we online is to 20,000 in the rooms and we online is a huge part of what we do. We'll have a huge part of what we do. We'll have a huge part of what we do. We'll have another I don't know eight or nine,000 another I don't know eight or nine,000 another I don't know eight or nine,000 online. Um depending on the week and online. Um depending on the week and online. Um depending on the week and when we say online by the way everybody when we say online by the way everybody when we say online by the way everybody measures that different. We we've we're measures that different. We we've we're measures that different. We we've we're very conservative with that. Ours is you very conservative with that. Ours is you very conservative with that. Ours is you have to watch 30 minutes or we don't have to watch 30 minutes or we don't have to watch 30 minutes or we don't count you. Um so uh like it's not a count you. Um so uh like it's not a count you. Um so uh like it's not a click for us. Yeah. It's not a click for click for us. Yeah. It's not a click for click for us. Yeah. It's not a click for us. It's it's definitely 30 minutes or us. It's it's definitely 30 minutes or us. It's it's definitely 30 minutes or it doesn't count. So So we've got about it doesn't count. So So we've got about it doesn't count. So So we've got about 25,000 actively involved in our weekends 25,000 actively involved in our weekends 25,000 actively involved in our weekends right now. Um Yeah. So that's so right now. Um Yeah. So that's so right now. Um Yeah. So that's so amazing. And you've seen that spike with amazing. And you've seen that spike with amazing. And you've seen that spike with the leadership change. Not everybody the leadership change. Not everybody the leadership change. Not everybody sees that. 100%. Yeah. And um and again sees that. 100%. Yeah. And um and again sees that. 100%. Yeah. And um and again I think that ultimately Gary is because I think that ultimately Gary is because I think that ultimately Gary is because the mission didn't change. It really the mission didn't change. It really the mission didn't change. It really didn't. All right. Final question for didn't. All right. Final question for didn't. All right. Final question for you. This has been so fascinating.

you. This has been so fascinating. you. This has been so fascinating. Jason, uh I talked to a lot of people Jason, uh I talked to a lot of people Jason, uh I talked to a lot of people and I I've tried to squash this but like and I I've tried to squash this but like and I I've tried to squash this but like a bug sometimes you think you squash it. a bug sometimes you think you squash it. a bug sometimes you think you squash it. Still living, still moving. And the Still living, still moving. And the Still living, still moving. And the question is people say, "Well, the question is people say, "Well, the question is people say, "Well, the reason we're not growing is our reason we're not growing is our reason we're not growing is our location." So I've been to location." So I've been to location." So I've been to LCBC. Guys are in the sticks. Okay. I LCBC. Guys are in the sticks. Okay. I LCBC. Guys are in the sticks. Okay. I mean, you really are. You Yeah. You have mean, you really are. You Yeah. You have mean, you really are. You Yeah. You have locations in Philly, etc. But like you locations in Philly, etc. But like you locations in Philly, etc. But like you go to Canada, don't you, Carrie? Yeah. go to Canada, don't you, Carrie? Yeah. go to Canada, don't you, Carrie? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's cows. You have Yeah. I mean, there's cows. You have Yeah. I mean, there's cows. You have cows for neighbors, right? We do. So, I cows for neighbors, right? We do. So, I cows for neighbors, right? We do. So, I mean, talk to the leader who's like, mean, talk to the leader who's like, mean, talk to the leader who's like, "Well, the reason we're not growing is "Well, the reason we're not growing is "Well, the reason we're not growing is we're in the wrong part of town. We're we're in the wrong part of town. We're we're in the wrong part of town. We're in a rural community. We're where, you in a rural community. We're where, you in a rural community. We're where, you know, blah blah blah blah." Talk to them know, blah blah blah blah." Talk to them know, blah blah blah blah." Talk to them about where you can grow a church. Well, about where you can grow a church. Well, about where you can grow a church. Well, first, let me just maybe encourage maybe first, let me just maybe encourage maybe first, let me just maybe encourage maybe slashchallenge. If you're in a town of slashchallenge. If you're in a town of slashchallenge. If you're in a town of 10, let's just say you're in a town of 10, let's just say you're in a town of 10, let's just say you're in a town of 10,000 people, unless you're telling me 10,000 people, unless you're telling me 10,000 people, unless you're telling me that every one of those 10,000 people that every one of those 10,000 people that every one of those 10,000 people knows Jesus and has an active dynamic knows Jesus and has an active dynamic knows Jesus and has an active dynamic relationship with Jesus, you have room relationship with Jesus, you have room relationship with Jesus, you have room to grow and there's growth to grow and there's growth to grow and there's growth opportunities. So to me, the setting is opportunities. So to me, the setting is opportunities. So to me, the setting is not is not your limiter. Um, and I not is not your limiter. Um, and I not is not your limiter. Um, and I wouldn't even think about that. I I wouldn't even think about that. I I wouldn't even think about that. I I think you need to go, hey, what do we think you need to go, hey, what do we think you need to go, hey, what do we need to be faithful to? It doesn't need to be faithful to? It doesn't need to be faithful to? It doesn't matter our context. We don't even think matter our context. We don't even think matter our context. We don't even think I mean we've got teams that think about I mean we've got teams that think about I mean we've got teams that think about a lot of that kind of stuff. But I feel a lot of that kind of stuff. But I feel a lot of that kind of stuff. But I feel like our job as leaders is to go where like our job as leaders is to go where like our job as leaders is to go where it doesn't matter. Put me in put me in a it doesn't matter. Put me in put me in a it doesn't matter. Put me in put me in a town of a hundred people. Put me in in a town of a hundred people. Put me in in a town of a hundred people. Put me in in a 100 thousand. We're going to do the same 100 thousand. We're going to do the same 100 thousand. We're going to do the same thing. We're going to be about reaching thing. We're going to be about reaching thing. We're going to be about reaching people. We're going to be about making people. We're going to be about making people. We're going to be about making our love easy to see so that people come

our love easy to see so that people come our love easy to see so that people come into an active and dynamic relationship into an active and dynamic relationship into an active and dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ. And we will with Jesus Christ. And we will with Jesus Christ. And we will reach o only God knows the ceiling. I'm reach o only God knows the ceiling. I'm reach o only God knows the ceiling. I'm not going to place it. So that's not going to place it. So that's not going to place it. So that's probably my encouragement. Don't put a probably my encouragement. Don't put a probably my encouragement. Don't put a ceiling that God did not place on you in ceiling that God did not place on you in ceiling that God did not place on you in your church. Um you just be faithful. your church. Um you just be faithful. your church. Um you just be faithful. You go out and you do you get in that You go out and you do you get in that You go out and you do you get in that community and you try to win everybody community and you try to win everybody community and you try to win everybody you know to Jesus Christ and you see you know to Jesus Christ and you see you know to Jesus Christ and you see just let God do that other part. Um just let God do that other part. Um just let God do that other part. Um which he will. Um but he promised I will which he will. Um but he promised I will which he will. Um but he promised I will draw him into myself and the gates of draw him into myself and the gates of draw him into myself and the gates of hell will not prevail because he will hell will not prevail because he will hell will not prevail because he will build his church and that does not build his church and that does not build his church and that does not matter if a town of 100 or 100 thousand. matter if a town of 100 or 100 thousand. matter if a town of 100 or 100 thousand. So go for it. Do not be self-limiting in So go for it. Do not be self-limiting in So go for it. Do not be self-limiting in that. We were joking about that at that. We were joking about that at that. We were joking about that at lunch. I got my buddy Mark Clark in lunch. I got my buddy Mark Clark in lunch. I got my buddy Mark Clark in town. We're doing some work together town. We're doing some work together town. We're doing some work together this week and he's like, "You really do this week and he's like, "You really do this week and he's like, "You really do live in the country." I'm like, "Yeah, live in the country." I'm like, "Yeah, live in the country." I'm like, "Yeah, you can do almost anything from you can do almost anything from you can do almost anything from anywhere. It's amazing." So Jason has anywhere. It's amazing." So Jason has anywhere. It's amazing." So Jason has been so encouraging. You've got a new been so encouraging. You've got a new been so encouraging. You've got a new book called No Easy Jesus. It's book called No Easy Jesus. It's book called No Easy Jesus. It's available everywhere. People want to available everywhere. People want to available everywhere. People want to track with you online. Where's the best track with you online. Where's the best track with you online. Where's the best place to find you these days? Social place to find you these days? Social place to find you these days? Social media. Find us uh you know, find me on media. Find us uh you know, find me on media. Find us uh you know, find me on all the the different platforms. Jason all the the different platforms. Jason all the the different platforms. Jason Mitchell Words, I think, on Instagram Mitchell Words, I think, on Instagram Mitchell Words, I think, on Instagram and all that. And then LCBC Church, you and all that. And then LCBC Church, you and all that. And then LCBC Church, you can find us as well. We'd love for uh can find us as well. We'd love for uh can find us as well. We'd love for uh for you to track along with what God's for you to track along with what God's for you to track along with what God's doing here and come alongside everybody doing here and come alongside everybody doing here and come alongside everybody else as well. So, hey, I so appreciate else as well. So, hey, I so appreciate else as well. So, hey, I so appreciate this. Till next time, Jason. Thank you.

this. Till next time, Jason. Thank you. this. Till next time, Jason. Thank you. Thank you, Carrie.