How the Culture War Affects You

I've done this I've literally said this I've done this I've literally said this most nuanced thing that I prepare for most nuanced thing that I prepare for most nuanced thing that I prepare for days and someone will come up with a days and someone will come up with a days and someone will come up with a conspiracy theory or it's it's two right conspiracy theory or it's it's two right conspiracy theory or it's it's two right two left whatever um uh and that draws two left whatever um uh and that draws two left whatever um uh and that draws me back to God so like if you're anxious me back to God so like if you're anxious me back to God so like if you're anxious about this season what if God is about this season what if God is about this season what if God is allowing some of this fractiousness to allowing some of this fractiousness to allowing some of this fractiousness to continue to push the church back into a continue to push the church back into a continue to push the church back into a dependency on him not into techniques dependency on him not into techniques dependency on him not into techniques and procedures that will protect us from and procedures that will protect us from and procedures that will protect us from Pain welcome to the K newoff leadership Pain welcome to the K newoff leadership Pain welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you joined us today hey we are continuing joined us today hey we are continuing joined us today hey we are continuing our pastoring in a partisan Age series our pastoring in a partisan Age series our pastoring in a partisan Age series today Mark sers is going to talk about today Mark sers is going to talk about today Mark sers is going to talk about the rise of the culture wars conspiracy the rise of the culture wars conspiracy the rise of the culture wars conspiracy theories and a whole lot more we'll get theories and a whole lot more we'll get theories and a whole lot more we'll get to that in just a moment but hey did you to that in just a moment but hey did you to that in just a moment but hey did you know that this month we're celebrating know that this month we're celebrating know that this month we're celebrating the 10th anniversary of this show and the 10th anniversary of this show and the 10th anniversary of this show and that's because of you you guys have been that's because of you you guys have been that's because of you you guys have been so generous sharing it with your friends so generous sharing it with your friends so generous sharing it with your friends that's how shows grow and that's why that's how shows grow and that's why that's how shows grow and that's why we've been able to do this for 10 years we've been able to do this for 10 years we've been able to do this for 10 years and to celebrate we're celebrating you and to celebrate we're celebrating you and to celebrate we're celebrating you we're going to give away we're going to give away we're going to give away one of my favorite things so one of my one of my favorite things so one of my one of my favorite things so one of my hobbies is I love grilling and smoking hobbies is I love grilling and smoking hobbies is I love grilling and smoking on the Big Green Egg it's a cult I'm in on the Big Green Egg it's a cult I'm in on the Big Green Egg it's a cult I'm in the Big Green Egg cult I love it and the Big Green Egg cult I love it and the Big Green Egg cult I love it and here's what we're going to do we're here's what we're going to do we're here's what we're going to do we're going to give away one extra large Big going to give away one extra large Big going to give away one extra large Big Green Egg to a grand prize winner we're Green Egg to a grand prize winner we're Green Egg to a grand prize winner we're going to give away a lot of accessories going to give away a lot of accessories going to give away a lot of accessories and a special steak delivery and then and a special steak delivery and then and a special steak delivery and then for two runner up winners we've got two for two runner up winners we've got two for two runner up winners we've got two Big Green Egg mini Maxes these are small Big Green Egg mini Maxes these are small Big Green Egg mini Maxes these are small versions of the Big Green Egg they're versions of the Big Green Egg they're versions of the Big Green Egg they're incredible you you can take them incredible you you can take them incredible you you can take them tailgating take them camping put them in

tailgating take them camping put them in tailgating take them camping put them in your backyard whatever you want to do so your backyard whatever you want to do so your backyard whatever you want to do so one grand prize two winners that are one grand prize two winners that are one grand prize two winners that are Runner UPS now how do you enter well if Runner UPS now how do you enter well if Runner UPS now how do you enter well if you're in Canada in the US the contest you're in Canada in the US the contest you're in Canada in the US the contest is open to you drop a comment and share is open to you drop a comment and share is open to you drop a comment and share a special moment from this podcast a special moment from this podcast a special moment from this podcast something you really appreciated and something you really appreciated and something you really appreciated and then step two enter at cnlp dolive then step two enter at cnlp dolive then step two enter at cnlp dolive winners will be chosen on September 26th winners will be chosen on September 26th winners will be chosen on September 26th and I hope you win hey I want you to and I hope you win hey I want you to and I hope you win hey I want you to know that this podcast is brought to you know that this podcast is brought to you know that this podcast is brought to you by my brand new court called The Art of by my brand new court called The Art of by my brand new court called The Art of navigating Church conflict on September navigating Church conflict on September navigating Church conflict on September 23rd I'm releasing a brand new course 23rd I'm releasing a brand new course 23rd I'm releasing a brand new course that is designed to help you navigate that is designed to help you navigate that is designed to help you navigate the incredibly explosive and divided the incredibly explosive and divided the incredibly explosive and divided culture we're in right now it's my culture we're in right now it's my culture we're in right now it's my comprehensive training where you're comprehensive training where you're comprehensive training where you're going to learn to use proven Frameworks going to learn to use proven Frameworks going to learn to use proven Frameworks strategies and skills to unite your strategies and skills to unite your strategies and skills to unite your church to inspire people to empower them church to inspire people to empower them church to inspire people to empower them and to navigate conflict and mitigate and to navigate conflict and mitigate and to navigate conflict and mitigate criticism you can join the wait list for criticism you can join the wait list for criticism you can join the wait list for the course at the artof the course at the artof the course at the artof churchcliff Convoy of Hope whether it's churchcliff Convoy of Hope whether it's churchcliff Convoy of Hope whether it's organizing an event or supporting organizing an event or supporting organizing an event or supporting families in need Convoy of Hope wants to families in need Convoy of Hope wants to families in need Convoy of Hope wants to find a way to reignite a love for find a way to reignite a love for find a way to reignite a love for serving your community Through serving your community Through serving your community Through compassion Ministry so to partner with compassion Ministry so to partner with compassion Ministry so to partner with them go to convoy. orgar and start them go to convoy. orgar and start them go to convoy. orgar and start loving your community today and one note loving your community today and one note loving your community today and one note before we get started purpose of this before we get started purpose of this before we get started purpose of this podcast yes we're discussing a lot of podcast yes we're discussing a lot of podcast yes we're discussing a lot of things it is educational and things it is educational and things it is educational and informational a variety of perspectives informational a variety of perspectives informational a variety of perspectives are represented throughout this series are represented throughout this series are represented throughout this series so play nice in the comments keep B so play nice in the comments keep B so play nice in the comments keep B civil we're trying to diffuse conflict

civil we're trying to diffuse conflict civil we're trying to diffuse conflict not make it worse the goal of this not make it worse the goal of this not make it worse the goal of this series is to help and to diffuse the series is to help and to diffuse the series is to help and to diffuse the conflict that the culture is conflict that the culture is conflict that the culture is experiencing with that in mind let's go experiencing with that in mind let's go experiencing with that in mind let's go there right now with Mark seers Mark so there right now with Mark seers Mark so there right now with Mark seers Mark so good to have you back on the podcast and good to have you back on the podcast and good to have you back on the podcast and thanks for joining us in this series thanks for joining us in this series thanks for joining us in this series yeah so excited to be chatting again yeah so excited to be chatting again yeah so excited to be chatting again well we've had some great conversations well we've had some great conversations well we've had some great conversations and I want to start here because you and I want to start here because you and I want to start here because you have such a good historic perspective have such a good historic perspective have such a good historic perspective and global perspective and global perspective and global perspective um in terms of tribalization and um in terms of tribalization and um in terms of tribalization and division what is different today than division what is different today than division what is different today than say in the 1990s or even 20 years say in the 1990s or even 20 years say in the 1990s or even 20 years ago well I think it's it's a number of ago well I think it's it's a number of ago well I think it's it's a number of things coming together at once is what things coming together at once is what things coming together at once is what is driving this so one thing I would say is driving this so one thing I would say is driving this so one thing I would say is that uh we had 20 2008 had a Global is that uh we had 20 2008 had a Global is that uh we had 20 2008 had a Global Financial uh crisis and a lot of today's Financial uh crisis and a lot of today's Financial uh crisis and a lot of today's problems can be really traced back to problems can be really traced back to problems can be really traced back to that and the responses to that um and that and the responses to that um and that and the responses to that um and uh you know that you saw that affect a uh you know that you saw that affect a uh you know that you saw that affect a lot of working people around the world lot of working people around the world lot of working people around the world it really affected the economic system it really affected the economic system it really affected the economic system and a lot of the solutions to that from and a lot of the solutions to that from and a lot of the solutions to that from you know printing money and uh uh going you know printing money and uh uh going you know printing money and uh uh going into debt are affecting people today and into debt are affecting people today and into debt are affecting people today and I think that's the UN background story I think that's the UN background story I think that's the UN background story that a lot of people don't talk about that a lot of people don't talk about that a lot of people don't talk about obviously covid and the economic obviously covid and the economic obviously covid and the economic response to covid was um also something response to covid was um also something response to covid was um also something which repeated those pattern and which repeated those pattern and which repeated those pattern and printing money and we're seeing things printing money and we're seeing things printing money and we're seeing things like uh inflation and so on and there's like uh inflation and so on and there's like uh inflation and so on and there's an increasing sense that people are an increasing sense that people are an increasing sense that people are struggling to get ahead economically

struggling to get ahead economically struggling to get ahead economically there's a growing divide uh between there's a growing divide uh between there's a growing divide uh between those at the very top and even since those at the very top and even since those at the very top and even since 2020 we've seen just that that top 1% 2020 we've seen just that that top 1% 2020 we've seen just that that top 1% grow financially so anytime you have grow financially so anytime you have grow financially so anytime you have economic disparity it just pours fuel on economic disparity it just pours fuel on economic disparity it just pours fuel on other social social uh you know other social social uh you know other social social uh you know disconnection so I think that's one of disconnection so I think that's one of disconnection so I think that's one of the background stories that people are the background stories that people are the background stories that people are not talk about and you can see that not talk about and you can see that not talk about and you can see that everywhere from Bangladesh to Boston um everywhere from Bangladesh to Boston um everywhere from Bangladesh to Boston um uh the second thing is that we live in a uh the second thing is that we live in a uh the second thing is that we live in a time of of of our way we process time of of of our way we process time of of of our way we process information is changed through social information is changed through social information is changed through social media and social media has brought the media and social media has brought the media and social media has brought the world a lot closer um so events that we world a lot closer um so events that we world a lot closer um so events that we previously had distance from such as previously had distance from such as previously had distance from such as you'd read the newspaper and read about you'd read the newspaper and read about you'd read the newspaper and read about a flasho it's now on our phones all the a flasho it's now on our phones all the a flasho it's now on our phones all the time and it doesn't just prevent present time and it doesn't just prevent present time and it doesn't just prevent present text it presents faces and voices and text it presents faces and voices and text it presents faces and voices and emotions and sadly one of the things emotions and sadly one of the things emotions and sadly one of the things that travels very fast on on social that travels very fast on on social that travels very fast on on social media's negative uh you know emotions media's negative uh you know emotions media's negative uh you know emotions anger frustration um you know so you put anger frustration um you know so you put anger frustration um you know so you put those two things together growing sense those two things together growing sense those two things together growing sense of inequality um and I said the third of inequality um and I said the third of inequality um and I said the third thing is too that um you know we thing is too that um you know we thing is too that um you know we Marshall mclen um Great Canadian um Marshall mclen um Great Canadian um Marshall mclen um Great Canadian um talked talked talked of a global village um which sounds very of a global village um which sounds very of a global village um which sounds very sort of you know lovely but actually his sort of you know lovely but actually his sort of you know lovely but actually his interpretation of that is Villages can interpretation of that is Villages can interpretation of that is Villages can be quite tribal places they can be be quite tribal places they can be be quite tribal places they can be violent places and very loud places and violent places and very loud places and violent places and very loud places and I think we're seeing that too as the I think we're seeing that too as the I think we're seeing that too as the world is becoming connected we're also world is becoming connected we're also world is becoming connected we're also becoming disconnected as people find becoming disconnected as people find becoming disconnected as people find identity and meaning in tribal subgroups

identity and meaning in tribal subgroups identity and meaning in tribal subgroups um and then lastly I just would say too um and then lastly I just would say too um and then lastly I just would say too I think um we're going through a I think um we're going through a I think um we're going through a political crisis that there is a number political crisis that there is a number political crisis that there is a number of countries around the world that if of countries around the world that if of countries around the world that if you had a scale of their political you had a scale of their political you had a scale of their political health and 10 was very healthy people health and 10 was very healthy people health and 10 was very healthy people have dropped down several numbers and have dropped down several numbers and have dropped down several numbers and particularly that that's true in some particularly that that's true in some particularly that that's true in some Western countries which are not used to Western countries which are not used to Western countries which are not used to that and all of this is driving a very that and all of this is driving a very that and all of this is driving a very tribalize tribalize tribalize environment yeah you know the economics environment yeah you know the economics environment yeah you know the economics hasn't really come up on this Series so hasn't really come up on this Series so hasn't really come up on this Series so far so I'd like to to dive into that far so I'd like to to dive into that far so I'd like to to dive into that right because if if I remember the right because if if I remember the right because if if I remember the terminology correctly in 2008 we called terminology correctly in 2008 we called terminology correctly in 2008 we called it quantitative easing right we'll just it quantitative easing right we'll just it quantitative easing right we'll just print a whole bunch of money get some print a whole bunch of money get some print a whole bunch of money get some Prosperity you saw probably a V2 of that Prosperity you saw probably a V2 of that Prosperity you saw probably a V2 of that during covid where I know in Canada the during covid where I know in Canada the during covid where I know in Canada the government just and in America too just government just and in America too just government just and in America too just printed boatloads of money to get people printed boatloads of money to get people printed boatloads of money to get people through the crisis stock market through the crisis stock market through the crisis stock market rebounded you know you you kind of look rebounded you know you you kind of look rebounded you know you you kind of look at that and go well isn't that a good at that and go well isn't that a good at that and go well isn't that a good thing like isn't that what happened thing like isn't that what happened thing like isn't that what happened during the Depression I mean the during the Depression I mean the during the Depression I mean the argument is that if Roosevelt hadn't argument is that if Roosevelt hadn't argument is that if Roosevelt hadn't come along in the depression it might come along in the depression it might come along in the depression it might have how would we have pulled out of it have how would we have pulled out of it have how would we have pulled out of it you know and you could also argue the you know and you could also argue the you know and you could also argue the war solved the depression second world war solved the depression second world war solved the depression second world war um so in some circles that's seen as war um so in some circles that's seen as war um so in some circles that's seen as help for the little guy but the little help for the little guy but the little help for the little guy but the little guy ends up being very frustrated at the guy ends up being very frustrated at the guy ends up being very frustrated at the end if I understand you correctly can end if I understand you correctly can end if I understand you correctly can you explain that a little bit more yeah you explain that a little bit more yeah you explain that a little bit more yeah so one of the things that has happened so one of the things that has happened so one of the things that has happened in the last sort of 10 years or so has in the last sort of 10 years or so has in the last sort of 10 years or so has it's been a real struggle for economies it's been a real struggle for economies it's been a real struggle for economies to become more productive so my to become more productive so my to become more productive so my understanding of the Canadian economy is understanding of the Canadian economy is understanding of the Canadian economy is that it struggled to produce and grow

that it struggled to produce and grow that it struggled to produce and grow during the last nine years um and this during the last nine years um and this during the last nine years um and this has happened across the world and then has happened across the world and then has happened across the world and then Co a lot of people forget because we're Co a lot of people forget because we're Co a lot of people forget because we're so focused on the medical side of Co is so focused on the medical side of Co is so focused on the medical side of Co is it created one of the biggest economic it created one of the biggest economic it created one of the biggest economic shocks since the Great Depression um we shocks since the Great Depression um we shocks since the Great Depression um we didn't feel that necessarily because didn't feel that necessarily because didn't feel that necessarily because you're right we started quantitative you're right we started quantitative you're right we started quantitative easing printing money um but what that easing printing money um but what that easing printing money um but what that has happened it's almost like we used has happened it's almost like we used has happened it's almost like we used that solution back in 2008 you can't that solution back in 2008 you can't that solution back in 2008 you can't keep using that solu because you have a keep using that solu because you have a keep using that solu because you have a flowing effect of inflation so a lot of flowing effect of inflation so a lot of flowing effect of inflation so a lot of cost of living uh concerns in the last cost of living uh concerns in the last cost of living uh concerns in the last World have been around inflation so World have been around inflation so World have been around inflation so people who might be less engaged in a people who might be less engaged in a people who might be less engaged in a moment of cultural polarization all of a moment of cultural polarization all of a moment of cultural polarization all of a sudden when they that burger cost more sudden when they that burger cost more sudden when they that burger cost more money when they can't pay their mortgage money when they can't pay their mortgage money when they can't pay their mortgage payments on their home everything starts payments on their home everything starts payments on their home everything starts to become more inflamed and I think to become more inflamed and I think to become more inflamed and I think you're right to bring out the Great you're right to bring out the Great you're right to bring out the Great Depression there's a lot of parallels to Depression there's a lot of parallels to Depression there's a lot of parallels to what happened in the in the 30s where what happened in the in the 30s where what happened in the in the 30s where you saw real polarization across the you saw real polarization across the you saw real polarization across the world world world uh the far left far right row uh and uh the far left far right row uh and uh the far left far right row uh and there's another parallel in the 1970s there's another parallel in the 1970s there's another parallel in the 1970s where the world had inflation low growth where the world had inflation low growth where the world had inflation low growth and an oil shock and again too I just and an oil shock and again too I just and an oil shock and again too I just have read several histories of the 70s have read several histories of the 70s have read several histories of the 70s lately and the parallels are amazing to lately and the parallels are amazing to lately and the parallels are amazing to what's happening now um so I think that what's happening now um so I think that what's happening now um so I think that economic background is what a lot of economic background is what a lot of economic background is what a lot of people don't talk about when it comes to people don't talk about when it comes to people don't talk about when it comes to cultural uh you know sort of uh cultural uh you know sort of uh cultural uh you know sort of uh polarization and tension but I think polarization and tension but I think polarization and tension but I think it's one of the big stories a lot of it's one of the big stories a lot of it's one of the big stories a lot of people feel left behind people feel left behind people feel left behind and then that drives looking for answers and then that drives looking for answers and then that drives looking for answers ideologies which can explain that ideologies which can explain that ideologies which can explain that story you know when you look at the uh

story you know when you look at the uh story you know when you look at the uh density of podcast listeners to this density of podcast listeners to this density of podcast listeners to this show top five cities are all American show top five cities are all American show top five cities are all American but you have La Chicago New York I think but you have La Chicago New York I think but you have La Chicago New York I think Atlanta and Dallas are the top five Atlanta and Dallas are the top five Atlanta and Dallas are the top five consistently for listeners of this show consistently for listeners of this show consistently for listeners of this show with a couple of exceptions housing is with a couple of exceptions housing is with a couple of exceptions housing is all but unattainable and unaffordable in all but unattainable and unaffordable in all but unattainable and unaffordable in those big cities you think about even in those big cities you think about even in those big cities you think about even in Melbourne where you are you know or near Melbourne where you are you know or near Melbourne where you are you know or near Toronto where I'm located uh housing has Toronto where I'm located uh housing has Toronto where I'm located uh housing has just gone bananas and when you think just gone bananas and when you think just gone bananas and when you think about that you know you're pastoring red about that you know you're pastoring red about that you know you're pastoring red Church a lot of listeners here are Church a lot of listeners here are Church a lot of listeners here are engaged in their local church you're engaged in their local church you're engaged in their local church you're dealing with a significant now dealing with a significant now dealing with a significant now percentage of the population that just percentage of the population that just percentage of the population that just can't even meet their bills anymore it's can't even meet their bills anymore it's can't even meet their bills anymore it's like rent has gone through the roof I like rent has gone through the roof I like rent has gone through the roof I don't know whether I'll ever be able to don't know whether I'll ever be able to don't know whether I'll ever be able to afford a house I don't know whether I afford a house I don't know whether I afford a house I don't know whether I can keep our house cars are crazy in can keep our house cars are crazy in can keep our house cars are crazy in terms of expense and as you say terms of expense and as you say terms of expense and as you say everybody wants a tip you know my wife everybody wants a tip you know my wife everybody wants a tip you know my wife and I we went out and we just had and I we went out and we just had and I we went out and we just had burritos like two go burritos and we burritos like two go burritos and we burritos like two go burritos and we took them to to have you know the took them to to have you know the took them to to have you know the Waterfront and just relax was $46 with Waterfront and just relax was $46 with Waterfront and just relax was $46 with tax and tip for two burritos and I'm tax and tip for two burritos and I'm tax and tip for two burritos and I'm like what planet am I living on like like what planet am I living on like like what planet am I living on like this is crazy and so you know you think this is crazy and so you know you think this is crazy and so you know you think about that how how does that impact you about that how how does that impact you about that how how does that impact you as a pastor as a local leader when your as a pastor as a local leader when your as a pastor as a local leader when your people are under that much Financial people are under that much Financial people are under that much Financial stress what definitely changes locality stress what definitely changes locality stress what definitely changes locality um you know the idea of that people are um you know the idea of that people are um you know the idea of that people are going to go through their life Journey going to go through their life Journey going to go through their life Journey from you know perhaps being a young from you know perhaps being a young from you know perhaps being a young family to a retiree and do all that in family to a retiree and do all that in family to a retiree and do all that in one Community now we'd already seen that one Community now we'd already seen that one Community now we'd already seen that change happening in in people moving

change happening in in people moving change happening in in people moving around a lot more but yeah like around a lot more but yeah like around a lot more but yeah like Melbourne's housing price is very Melbourne's housing price is very Melbourne's housing price is very similar to you know what's happened similar to you know what's happened similar to you know what's happened around the world it's it just incredibly around the world it's it just incredibly around the world it's it just incredibly unaffordable and we've seen that you unaffordable and we've seen that you unaffordable and we've seen that you know get people come along you connect know get people come along you connect know get people come along you connect they love your church and they have to they love your church and they have to they love your church and they have to leave not because of a theological issue leave not because of a theological issue leave not because of a theological issue or whatever they just cannot afford to or whatever they just cannot afford to or whatever they just cannot afford to live in the area and I'd also say too live in the area and I'd also say too live in the area and I'd also say too it's it's one one interesting thing that it's it's one one interesting thing that it's it's one one interesting thing that pastors I think need to get their heads pastors I think need to get their heads pastors I think need to get their heads around is the fact that there's an around is the fact that there's an around is the fact that there's an inevitable conservative Force about inevitable conservative Force about inevitable conservative Force about buying a home that that changes people buying a home that that changes people buying a home that that changes people um and that's this has been talked about um and that's this has been talked about um and that's this has been talked about um a lot in politics uh you in a sense um a lot in politics uh you in a sense um a lot in politics uh you in a sense have something to conserve to work have something to conserve to work have something to conserve to work towards you know uh but when you don't towards you know uh but when you don't towards you know uh but when you don't have that people become a lot more have that people become a lot more have that people become a lot more mobile there's a greater discouragement mobile there's a greater discouragement mobile there's a greater discouragement about the future so I see a lot of about the future so I see a lot of about the future so I see a lot of hopelessness pastorally um that well we hopelessness pastorally um that well we hopelessness pastorally um that well we can never get ahead systems rigged can never get ahead systems rigged can never get ahead systems rigged against us um uh you know what are we against us um uh you know what are we against us um uh you know what are we meant to do so add a whole new layer meant to do so add a whole new layer meant to do so add a whole new layer that perhaps wasn't there in the past that perhaps wasn't there in the past that perhaps wasn't there in the past when housing was more affordable when housing was more affordable when housing was more affordable particularly amongst the particularly amongst the particularly amongst the young um when you think about the young um when you think about the young um when you think about the culture wars Christians seem to have culture wars Christians seem to have culture wars Christians seem to have really gotten caught up in the culture really gotten caught up in the culture really gotten caught up in the culture wars in our lifetime I don't know wars in our lifetime I don't know wars in our lifetime I don't know whether it was always so you can make an whether it was always so you can make an whether it was always so you can make an argument either way from history but I'm argument either way from history but I'm argument either way from history but I'm curious as to why you think that has curious as to why you think that has curious as to why you think that has accelerated first of all do you think accelerated first of all do you think accelerated first of all do you think that's accelerated Christians that's accelerated Christians that's accelerated Christians participating in the in the culture Wars participating in the in the culture Wars participating in the in the culture Wars and if so why have we become so and if so why have we become so and if so why have we become so hypnotized by them mesmerized by these hypnotized by them mesmerized by these hypnotized by them mesmerized by these culture wars that are going on around us

culture wars that are going on around us culture wars that are going on around us yeah we we went through a culture War yeah we we went through a culture War yeah we we went through a culture War really after World War II called the really after World War II called the really after World War II called the Cold War which had a cultural War Cold War which had a cultural War Cold War which had a cultural War element between communism and democracy element between communism and democracy element between communism and democracy and uh that very much shaped the world and uh that very much shaped the world and uh that very much shaped the world you know you watch a movie um like Rambo you know you watch a movie um like Rambo you know you watch a movie um like Rambo or rocky with you know where he fights or rocky with you know where he fights or rocky with you know where he fights the the Soviet fighter the the Soviet fighter the the Soviet fighter um they're also Stallone movies but you um they're also Stallone movies but you um they're also Stallone movies but you know if you go back and watch movies know if you go back and watch movies know if you go back and watch movies from the 1980s or even 70s there's this from the 1980s or even 70s there's this from the 1980s or even 70s there's this constant theme of cultural war between constant theme of cultural war between constant theme of cultural war between those two political forces um when the those two political forces um when the those two political forces um when the world became unipolar meaning America world became unipolar meaning America world became unipolar meaning America became the sole power in the world in a became the sole power in the world in a became the sole power in the world in a sense then America got to determine so sense then America got to determine so sense then America got to determine so much of global culture and popular much of global culture and popular much of global culture and popular culture and politics seemed to disappear culture and politics seemed to disappear culture and politics seemed to disappear there particularly at the fall of the of there particularly at the fall of the of there particularly at the fall of the of the the Iron Curtain and uh we almost the the Iron Curtain and uh we almost the the Iron Curtain and uh we almost went into this anti-politics or polit IC went into this anti-politics or polit IC went into this anti-politics or polit IC politics time where people thought that politics time where people thought that politics time where people thought that the econom is going to keep growing the the econom is going to keep growing the the econom is going to keep growing the world's going to slide to a a sort of world's going to slide to a a sort of world's going to slide to a a sort of Utopia politics is almost over we don't Utopia politics is almost over we don't Utopia politics is almost over we don't need to argue about these things I need to argue about these things I need to argue about these things I always think of the show Seinfeld which always think of the show Seinfeld which always think of the show Seinfeld which was the most popular show a show about was the most popular show a show about was the most popular show a show about nothing you know just their individual nothing you know just their individual nothing you know just their individual lives and little quirks they went lives and little quirks they went lives and little quirks they went through in their day and all of a sudden through in their day and all of a sudden through in their day and all of a sudden culture wars come back and I think part culture wars come back and I think part culture wars come back and I think part of that is because the United States in of that is because the United States in of that is because the United States in particular as the country Which shapes particular as the country Which shapes particular as the country Which shapes the world so much in terms of the world so much in terms of the world so much in terms of particularly English speaking world particularly English speaking world particularly English speaking world through its popular culture reentered through its popular culture reentered through its popular culture reentered into a political battle really um and into a political battle really um and into a political battle really um and that has gone through the whole of the that has gone through the whole of the that has gone through the whole of the culture so everything that we had this culture so everything that we had this culture so everything that we had this large you can imagine like an expanding large you can imagine like an expanding large you can imagine like an expanding Circle where perhaps in the 90s politics

Circle where perhaps in the 90s politics Circle where perhaps in the 90s politics was spoken about by people who really was spoken about by people who really was spoken about by people who really interested in politics uh but now it's interested in politics uh but now it's interested in politics uh but now it's expanded out into everything so in terms expanded out into everything so in terms expanded out into everything so in terms of Christians one thing i' I've been of Christians one thing i' I've been of Christians one thing i' I've been fascinated by is just looking at other fascinated by is just looking at other fascinated by is just looking at other areas I remember being on some online areas I remember being on some online areas I remember being on some online conversations around uh just following conversations around uh just following conversations around uh just following some American Muslims and what they were some American Muslims and what they were some American Muslims and what they were thinking and and it looked exactly the thinking and and it looked exactly the thinking and and it looked exactly the same as some of the battles you'll see same as some of the battles you'll see same as some of the battles you'll see um in in uh you know the American um in in uh you know the American um in in uh you know the American Christian Church you know people are Christian Church you know people are Christian Church you know people are calling each other woke and accusing calling each other woke and accusing calling each other woke and accusing other people in white supremacists and other people in white supremacists and other people in white supremacists and this was in like Muslim chats it was this was in like Muslim chats it was this was in like Muslim chats it was just fascinating um you look at in just fascinating um you look at in just fascinating um you look at in Judaism you know you've got different Judaism you know you've got different Judaism you know you've got different parts of Judaism from Liberal Judaism to parts of Judaism from Liberal Judaism to parts of Judaism from Liberal Judaism to Orthodox Judaism which is splitting Orthodox Judaism which is splitting Orthodox Judaism which is splitting politically you see this in in uh I politically you see this in in uh I politically you see this in in uh I remember that what I dawned on me that remember that what I dawned on me that remember that what I dawned on me that something big was happening was when I something big was happening was when I something big was happening was when I read an article about how the cult War read an article about how the cult War read an article about how the cult War had split the knitting community in had split the knitting community in had split the knitting community in America and like actually like knitting America and like actually like knitting America and like actually like knitting quilts and Afghans type quilts and Afghans type quilts and Afghans type stuffit and people were like um you know stuffit and people were like um you know stuffit and people were like um you know in 2020 like what side are you on and in 2020 like what side are you on and in 2020 like what side are you on and people were like knitting instead of people were like knitting instead of people were like knitting instead of just like a scarf or um we would say just like a scarf or um we would say just like a scarf or um we would say JUMP would understand JUMP would understand JUMP would understand sweater yeah like like political sweater yeah like like political sweater yeah like like political statements on them and like these groups statements on them and like these groups statements on them and like these groups are falling apart so for me I think it's are falling apart so for me I think it's are falling apart so for me I think it's less why have Christians been engulfed less why have Christians been engulfed less why have Christians been engulfed in it the bigger question for me is why in it the bigger question for me is why in it the bigger question for me is why has so much of culture now in Australia has so much of culture now in Australia has so much of culture now in Australia it's not as widespread um you know I it's not as widespread um you know I it's not as widespread um you know I don't feel the culture or his anywhere don't feel the culture or his anywhere don't feel the culture or his anywhere like it is in in other countries but you like it is in in other countries but you like it is in in other countries but you need see places like Brazil India like need see places like Brazil India like need see places like Brazil India like polarization Netherlands has gone across

polarization Netherlands has gone across polarization Netherlands has gone across the world but I think a lot is driven by the world but I think a lot is driven by the world but I think a lot is driven by popular culture becoming much more popular culture becoming much more popular culture becoming much more political at every level and then political at every level and then political at every level and then therefore that begins to overtake therefore that begins to overtake therefore that begins to overtake because we live so much in the world now because we live so much in the world now because we live so much in the world now it's harder to distance yourself from it's harder to distance yourself from it's harder to distance yourself from the world so social media just we're the world so social media just we're the world so social media just we're constantly in an ideological constantly in an ideological constantly in an ideological soup so that leads me to my next soup so that leads me to my next soup so that leads me to my next question which is why has our theology question which is why has our theology question which is why has our theology we've talked particularly in the last we've talked particularly in the last we've talked particularly in the last four years about the crisis in four years about the crisis in four years about the crisis in discipleship right when Co hit everybody discipleship right when Co hit everybody discipleship right when Co hit everybody kind of looked around people left the kind of looked around people left the kind of looked around people left the church people deconverted people became church people deconverted people became church people deconverted people became uh secular you know whatever and it's uh secular you know whatever and it's uh secular you know whatever and it's like who we have a crisis in like who we have a crisis in like who we have a crisis in discipleship what is it about our discipleship what is it about our discipleship what is it about our theology that has left us not as well theology that has left us not as well theology that has left us not as well inoculated from the culture wars as we inoculated from the culture wars as we inoculated from the culture wars as we perhaps hoped we had been does that make perhaps hoped we had been does that make perhaps hoped we had been does that make sense as a question like why why was our sense as a question like why why was our sense as a question like why why was our theology not more robust that we could theology not more robust that we could theology not more robust that we could see or that we can see hey this isn't see or that we can see hey this isn't see or that we can see hey this isn't this isn't gospel this is this is this isn't gospel this is this is this isn't gospel this is this is culture um any thoughts on culture um any thoughts on culture um any thoughts on that I think I think almost the the that I think I think almost the the that I think I think almost the the subset of theology here is myology you subset of theology here is myology you subset of theology here is myology you know and I think you know part of my know and I think you know part of my know and I think you know part of my approach to Ministry has been people approach to Ministry has been people approach to Ministry has been people like Les nuban who you know were in a um like Les nuban who you know were in a um like Les nuban who you know were in a um outside of the West context but then outside of the West context but then outside of the West context but then came back and applied the principles came back and applied the principles came back and applied the principles that we' learned to communicate the that we' learned to communicate the that we' learned to communicate the gospel well uh in different cultural gospel well uh in different cultural gospel well uh in different cultural contexts back to the west and you know

contexts back to the west and you know contexts back to the west and you know in in mythology you're always asking the in in mythology you're always asking the in in mythology you're always asking the question what part am I communicating question what part am I communicating question what part am I communicating the go the gospel and what are part of the go the gospel and what are part of the go the gospel and what are part of my living at the Kingdom but also what my living at the Kingdom but also what my living at the Kingdom but also what are parts of my culture that I'm are parts of my culture that I'm are parts of my culture that I'm bringing so myology naturally brings a bringing so myology naturally brings a bringing so myology naturally brings a self-examination um what parts of my self-examination um what parts of my self-examination um what parts of my culture and biases that I I don't see culture and biases that I I don't see culture and biases that I I don't see not in some sort I know there word bias not in some sort I know there word bias not in some sort I know there word bias is used a lot in the culture I'm more is used a lot in the culture I'm more is used a lot in the culture I'm more meaning it from a biblical sense that in meaning it from a biblical sense that in meaning it from a biblical sense that in a sense that you know I'm I'm a fall and a sense that you know I'm I'm a fall and a sense that you know I'm I'm a fall and sinful person so there's going to be sinful person so there's going to be sinful person so there's going to be things where I'm going to fall short so things where I'm going to fall short so things where I'm going to fall short so how am I doing that so you're constantly how am I doing that so you're constantly how am I doing that so you're constantly examining your side in myology I think examining your side in myology I think examining your side in myology I think what's happening now is there's people what's happening now is there's people what's happening now is there's people who are doing a form of myology but it's who are doing a form of myology but it's who are doing a form of myology but it's always of the other side and and part of always of the other side and and part of always of the other side and and part of my my my analysis is I look what's my my my analysis is I look what's my my my analysis is I look what's happening say in the cultural War you happening say in the cultural War you happening say in the cultural War you can look and say well the other side's can look and say well the other side's can look and say well the other side's bad they're the ones doing everything bad they're the ones doing everything bad they're the ones doing everything wrong and that may indeed be largely wrong and that may indeed be largely wrong and that may indeed be largely true but what that what polarization true but what that what polarization true but what that what polarization does is it makes you look at the people does is it makes you look at the people does is it makes you look at the people across the aisle but it doesn't look at across the aisle but it doesn't look at across the aisle but it doesn't look at the overarching dynamic that's happening the overarching dynamic that's happening the overarching dynamic that's happening in society that's why I say culture war in society that's why I say culture war in society that's why I say culture war is really the political decline of is really the political decline of is really the political decline of political culture in many countries but political culture in many countries but political culture in many countries but what happens is that often when you're what happens is that often when you're what happens is that often when you're looking across the aisle at your looking across the aisle at your looking across the aisle at your political enemy you're missing what's political enemy you're missing what's political enemy you're missing what's you're doing wrong you're doing wrong you're doing wrong and often also what happens is you're and often also what happens is you're and often also what happens is you're looking for you know when it's so looking for you know when it's so looking for you know when it's so emotional cultural war and it always emotional cultural war and it always emotional cultural war and it always touches key issues of identity um touches key issues of identity um touches key issues of identity um meaning belonging um and often what meaning belonging um and often what meaning belonging um and often what happens is you get seduced in a cultural happens is you get seduced in a cultural happens is you get seduced in a cultural War not by waking up and all of a sudden War not by waking up and all of a sudden War not by waking up and all of a sudden one day you're your political enemy you

one day you're your political enemy you one day you're your political enemy you know the person who's super conservative know the person who's super conservative know the person who's super conservative is not going to wake up one day oh I'm a is not going to wake up one day oh I'm a is not going to wake up one day oh I'm a Marxist I mean occasionally happens the Marxist I mean occasionally happens the Marxist I mean occasionally happens the person who's super left is not going to person who's super left is not going to person who's super left is not going to wake up and say well I'm a fascist you wake up and say well I'm a fascist you wake up and say well I'm a fascist you more get seduced by the people you made more get seduced by the people you made more get seduced by the people you made alliances with against the other side so alliances with against the other side so alliances with against the other side so the enemy seduces You by coming close the enemy seduces You by coming close the enemy seduces You by coming close sounding like you know so it's actually sounding like you know so it's actually sounding like you know so it's actually allies which often compromise us um you allies which often compromise us um you allies which often compromise us um you know and I think you need a a theology know and I think you need a a theology know and I think you need a a theology or myology where you can examine or myology where you can examine or myology where you can examine yourself stay true so like hear me I'm yourself stay true so like hear me I'm yourself stay true so like hear me I'm not talking about a constant sort of you not talking about a constant sort of you not talking about a constant sort of you know self flagellation but you need to know self flagellation but you need to know self flagellation but you need to ask the question hey I could be getting ask the question hey I could be getting ask the question hey I could be getting this wrong and where where have I sort this wrong and where where have I sort this wrong and where where have I sort of Might my culture has has uh been of Might my culture has has uh been of Might my culture has has uh been compromised and is not compromised and is not compromised and is not gospel well I absolutely love your gospel well I absolutely love your gospel well I absolutely love your podcast the Rebuilders podcast one of podcast the Rebuilders podcast one of podcast the Rebuilders podcast one of your podcasts and um you had a series of your podcasts and um you had a series of your podcasts and um you had a series of episodes over the course of this year on episodes over the course of this year on episodes over the course of this year on conspiracy theories corruption Elites conspiracy theories corruption Elites conspiracy theories corruption Elites Etc that I thought were very eye Etc that I thought were very eye Etc that I thought were very eye openening I want to start with openening I want to start with openening I want to start with conspiracy theories they seem to be as conspiracy theories they seem to be as conspiracy theories they seem to be as widespread as ever can you help us widespread as ever can you help us widespread as ever can you help us understand why these are so appealing understand why these are so appealing understand why these are so appealing why they keep spreading and then I'd why they keep spreading and then I'd why they keep spreading and then I'd love a few pointers on what to do when love a few pointers on what to do when love a few pointers on what to do when you as a leader in a local context have you as a leader in a local context have you as a leader in a local context have someone come up and they're pedaling the someone come up and they're pedaling the someone come up and they're pedaling the latest conspiracy theory on you name latest conspiracy theory on you name latest conspiracy theory on you name it yeah um a few things like conspiracy

it yeah um a few things like conspiracy it yeah um a few things like conspiracy theories have grown in in in our time um theories have grown in in in our time um theories have grown in in in our time um and a few things about conspiracies and a few things about conspiracies and a few things about conspiracies number one one of the things number one one of the things number one one of the things particularly if you live in a liberal particularly if you live in a liberal particularly if you live in a liberal Western democracy one of the things that Western democracy one of the things that Western democracy one of the things that you emide without realizing is that you you emide without realizing is that you you emide without realizing is that you can have a significant say of what is can have a significant say of what is can have a significant say of what is happening in the world through voting happening in the world through voting happening in the world through voting and engaging the political process we and engaging the political process we and engaging the political process we increasingly live in a world which is increasingly live in a world which is increasingly live in a world which is globalized hugely complex uh and even globalized hugely complex uh and even globalized hugely complex uh and even some of our elected officials are some of our elected officials are some of our elected officials are struggling with the issues that you know struggling with the issues that you know struggling with the issues that you know they're facing so you actually feel very they're facing so you actually feel very they're facing so you actually feel very very disempowered and uh you know you I very disempowered and uh you know you I very disempowered and uh you know you I just voted that government in and these just voted that government in and these just voted that government in and these problems are still here and as that problems are still here and as that problems are still here and as that sense of disenfranchisement from the political disenfranchisement from the political process people start to have to have a process people start to have to have a process people start to have to have a story to explain that this doesn't seem story to explain that this doesn't seem story to explain that this doesn't seem to be changing this doesn't make a to be changing this doesn't make a to be changing this doesn't make a difference there must be something difference there must be something difference there must be something bigger going on now the other thing that bigger going on now the other thing that bigger going on now the other thing that is difficult with conspiracy theories is is difficult with conspiracy theories is is difficult with conspiracy theories is you can also fall into this binary of you can also fall into this binary of you can also fall into this binary of going all conspiracy theories are bad or going all conspiracy theories are bad or going all conspiracy theories are bad or all conspiracy theories are true and the all conspiracy theories are true and the all conspiracy theories are true and the reality is throughout history um there reality is throughout history um there reality is throughout history um there are times when governments don't tell are times when governments don't tell are times when governments don't tell the truth I'll give a non-controversial the truth I'll give a non-controversial the truth I'll give a non-controversial example or for audience uh when World example or for audience uh when World example or for audience uh when World War II happened um Japanese uh uh Army War II happened um Japanese uh uh Army War II happened um Japanese uh uh Army attacked all across you know the Pacific attacked all across you know the Pacific attacked all across you know the Pacific Pearl Harbor the Philippines Hong Kong Pearl Harbor the Philippines Hong Kong Pearl Harbor the Philippines Hong Kong and they bombed the northern city of and they bombed the northern city of and they bombed the northern city of Darwin in Australia and actually the Darwin in Australia and actually the Darwin in Australia and actually the Australian government did not tell the Australian government did not tell the Australian government did not tell the full extent because it was wartime of full extent because it was wartime of full extent because it was wartime of the damage that had been inflicted in

the damage that had been inflicted in the damage that had been inflicted in Darwin so the government actually Darwin so the government actually Darwin so the government actually withheld the truth of what was going on withheld the truth of what was going on withheld the truth of what was going on and they saw that as valuable to the and they saw that as valuable to the and they saw that as valuable to the propaganda efforts of of the Australian propaganda efforts of of the Australian propaganda efforts of of the Australian Army and not to demoral I the Australian Army and not to demoral I the Australian Army and not to demoral I the Australian people um so there are things that are people um so there are things that are people um so there are things that are hidden another example um just recently hidden another example um just recently hidden another example um just recently more evidence came out um in the trial more evidence came out um in the trial more evidence came out um in the trial that the the 9911 families have put to that the the 9911 families have put to that the the 9911 families have put to try and get more evidence of possible try and get more evidence of possible try and get more evidence of possible Saudi government involvement in 911 and Saudi government involvement in 911 and Saudi government involvement in 911 and there's stuff that is coming out the there's stuff that is coming out the there's stuff that is coming out the British intelligence Services have British intelligence Services have British intelligence Services have released some videos which show things released some videos which show things released some videos which show things that people did not know so there is an that people did not know so there is an that people did not know so there is an element that in that story because of element that in that story because of element that in that story because of geopolitical realities that there was geopolitical realities that there was geopolitical realities that there was some stuff around 9911 particularly some stuff around 9911 particularly some stuff around 9911 particularly Saudi government's involvement that the Saudi government's involvement that the Saudi government's involvement that the American government didn't want to know American government didn't want to know American government didn't want to know because of different geopolitical uh because of different geopolitical uh because of different geopolitical uh interlinking now that's not the same as interlinking now that's not the same as interlinking now that's not the same as some conspiracy theories where people some conspiracy theories where people some conspiracy theories where people are saying oh there was explosives put are saying oh there was explosives put are saying oh there was explosives put on every floor and they detonated the on every floor and they detonated the on every floor and they detonated the nine you know so the world is complex nine you know so the world is complex nine you know so the world is complex and governments sometimes do not release and governments sometimes do not release and governments sometimes do not release all of the information the files on JFK all of the information the files on JFK all of the information the files on JFK have not been fully released Donald have not been fully released Donald have not been fully released Donald Trump said he would got into office Trump said he would got into office Trump said he would got into office didn't release them so there's some didn't release them so there's some didn't release them so there's some things that we don't know and in an things that we don't know and in an things that we don't know and in an individual West where we're told that individual West where we're told that individual West where we're told that we're empowered that drives us insane so we're empowered that drives us insane so we're empowered that drives us insane so there is an element that sometimes those there is an element that sometimes those there is an element that sometimes those in power will will hold things back but in power will will hold things back but in power will will hold things back but I think conspiracy theories where it I think conspiracy theories where it I think conspiracy theories where it then moves into a kind of almost then moves into a kind of almost then moves into a kind of almost religious sense where it becomes an religious sense where it becomes an religious sense where it becomes an explanation of the different dynamics explanation of the different dynamics explanation of the different dynamics that are operating the world it becomes that are operating the world it becomes that are operating the world it becomes an explanation for evil um so all evil an explanation for evil um so all evil an explanation for evil um so all evil that is pertained against me must be that is pertained against me must be that is pertained against me must be because of a hidden cabal out there so

because of a hidden cabal out there so because of a hidden cabal out there so there is this real Nuance needed at the there is this real Nuance needed at the there is this real Nuance needed at the moment where I think some of the things moment where I think some of the things moment where I think some of the things so for example um I think you know so for example um I think you know so for example um I think you know governments have lost some legitimacy governments have lost some legitimacy governments have lost some legitimacy you know you look at the reasoning given you know you look at the reasoning given you know you look at the reasoning given to go into the Iraq War was presented to go into the Iraq War was presented to go into the Iraq War was presented that Iraq had weapons of mass that Iraq had weapons of mass that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that was not true and we destruction that was not true and we destruction that was not true and we know more about that so I think leaders know more about that so I think leaders know more about that so I think leaders you know walking their way through this you know walking their way through this you know walking their way through this need to recognize when is someone need to recognize when is someone need to recognize when is someone genuinely asking truth to power and then genuinely asking truth to power and then genuinely asking truth to power and then when is someone entering into almost the when is someone entering into almost the when is someone entering into almost the religious framework where everything is religious framework where everything is religious framework where everything is answered by this world viiew that's very answered by this world viiew that's very answered by this world viiew that's very rudimentary and very pits US versus a rudimentary and very pits US versus a rudimentary and very pits US versus a shadowy cabal at the top but also in a shadowy cabal at the top but also in a shadowy cabal at the top but also in a world where uh you know I often tell world where uh you know I often tell world where uh you know I often tell people to read the book mcmafia by Misha people to read the book mcmafia by Misha people to read the book mcmafia by Misha Glenny which is about economic Glenny which is about economic Glenny which is about economic corruption in the world and there is a corruption in the world and there is a corruption in the world and there is a lot of conspiracies around economic lot of conspiracies around economic lot of conspiracies around economic corruption um so a lot of conspiracies I corruption um so a lot of conspiracies I corruption um so a lot of conspiracies I actually think go back to economic actually think go back to economic actually think go back to economic corruption versus some ideological group corruption versus some ideological group corruption versus some ideological group trying to move everything towards their trying to move everything towards their trying to move everything towards their Direction so what do you do on a Direction so what do you do on a Direction so what do you do on a pastoral level because I mean people can pastoral level because I mean people can pastoral level because I mean people can debate this forever it starts to infect debate this forever it starts to infect debate this forever it starts to infect small groups uh it becomes the Q&A you small groups uh it becomes the Q&A you small groups uh it becomes the Q&A you get over coffee I've been to Red church get over coffee I've been to Red church get over coffee I've been to Red church so you know you're having a nice flat so you know you're having a nice flat so you know you're having a nice flat white at the back and somebody comes up white at the back and somebody comes up white at the back and somebody comes up and says well you know what really and says well you know what really and says well you know what really happened at fill in the blank um how do happened at fill in the blank um how do happened at fill in the blank um how do you approach that on a congregational you approach that on a congregational you approach that on a congregational level when you've got conspiracy level when you've got conspiracy level when you've got conspiracy theories one way or the other flying theories one way or the other flying theories one way or the other flying around yeah I think again too it's around yeah I think again too it's around yeah I think again too it's training people to to do what I guess I training people to to do what I guess I training people to to do what I guess I said in the previous answer which is to

said in the previous answer which is to said in the previous answer which is to be myologist to examine okay so yeah be myologist to examine okay so yeah be myologist to examine okay so yeah what's the truth in that what could be what's the truth in that what could be what's the truth in that what could be wrong what could we be missing um and I wrong what could we be missing um and I wrong what could we be missing um and I think when you do that people start to think when you do that people start to think when you do that people start to go oh okay you know like um so I think a go oh okay you know like um so I think a go oh okay you know like um so I think a lot of this comes down to discernment lot of this comes down to discernment lot of this comes down to discernment there is going to be reality too where there is going to be reality too where there is going to be reality too where you have to um you know create some file you have to um you know create some file you have to um you know create some file walls because there are some people walls because there are some people walls because there are some people which are zealots about this and there which are zealots about this and there which are zealots about this and there are you know which could be in the P are you know which could be in the P are you know which could be in the P what I find interesting is in the past what I find interesting is in the past what I find interesting is in the past people might have said I've got this people might have said I've got this people might have said I've got this group in my church which is really big group in my church which is really big group in my church which is really big into this particular theological you into this particular theological you into this particular theological you know like uh you know issue that seems know like uh you know issue that seems know like uh you know issue that seems to be disappearing and it's been to be disappearing and it's been to be disappearing and it's been replaced by politics in many ways um so replaced by politics in many ways um so replaced by politics in many ways um so I think you know uh there's some points I think you know uh there's some points I think you know uh there's some points where if it's becoming destructive so where if it's becoming destructive so where if it's becoming destructive so also those conversations need to happen also those conversations need to happen also those conversations need to happen in the sort of boundaries of how we're in the sort of boundaries of how we're in the sort of boundaries of how we're encouraged to do that as the Christian encouraged to do that as the Christian encouraged to do that as the Christian Church you know respect uh listening to Church you know respect uh listening to Church you know respect uh listening to the other person an attitude of love and the other person an attitude of love and the other person an attitude of love and kindness um uh also need to invelop that kindness um uh also need to invelop that kindness um uh also need to invelop that but I also just recognize you know like but I also just recognize you know like but I also just recognize you know like again I say I have the privilege in again I say I have the privilege in again I say I have the privilege in Australia where I think we have a you Australia where I think we have a you Australia where I think we have a you know an ability to talk around things know an ability to talk around things know an ability to talk around things more I know many pastors have spoken to more I know many pastors have spoken to more I know many pastors have spoken to it's just come like a firestorm through it's just come like a firestorm through it's just come like a firestorm through their church and that will happen their church and that will happen their church and that will happen sometimes uh so yeah I recognize it's I sometimes uh so yeah I recognize it's I sometimes uh so yeah I recognize it's I can say that from a place of it being can say that from a place of it being can say that from a place of it being easier for me happy to discuss this with easier for me happy to discuss this with easier for me happy to discuss this with you and we may get some listener you and we may get some listener you and we may get some listener feedback on this but my Approach over feedback on this but my Approach over feedback on this but my Approach over the years and remember I'm not leading a the years and remember I'm not leading a the years and remember I'm not leading a church day-to-day I'm helping church church day-to-day I'm helping church church day-to-day I'm helping church leaders so I'm not leading this leaders so I'm not leading this leaders so I'm not leading this day-to-day in

day-to-day in day-to-day in 2024 but um you know conspiracy theories 2024 but um you know conspiracy theories 2024 but um you know conspiracy theories have been around for a while I remember have been around for a while I remember have been around for a while I remember leading through 9/11 and I can picture leading through 9/11 and I can picture leading through 9/11 and I can picture the people who would come up to me well the people who would come up to me well the people who would come up to me well you know what really happened you know you know what really happened you know you know what really happened you know what really happened on or they're what really happened on or they're what really happened on or they're researching some Niche issue and they researching some Niche issue and they researching some Niche issue and they come back and it's like well you know come back and it's like well you know come back and it's like well you know the truth behind that is and they the truth behind that is and they the truth behind that is and they basically tell me this and then I would basically tell me this and then I would basically tell me this and then I would just not just not just not comment yeah yeah and it would fall to comment yeah yeah and it would fall to comment yeah yeah and it would fall to the ground like a thud and I'd say the ground like a thud and I'd say the ground like a thud and I'd say something like well thanks for sharing something like well thanks for sharing something like well thanks for sharing that or good to talk to you and I would that or good to talk to you and I would that or good to talk to you and I would just not comment and let it die and it just not comment and let it die and it just not comment and let it die and it almost like almost like almost like gave the the message that this kind of gave the the message that this kind of gave the the message that this kind of stuff is not what we're going to major stuff is not what we're going to major stuff is not what we're going to major in here I don't know whether that would in here I don't know whether that would in here I don't know whether that would fly in this exact current but I mean in fly in this exact current but I mean in fly in this exact current but I mean in a large measure that's what I do on this a large measure that's what I do on this a large measure that's what I do on this show that's what I do in all the show that's what I do in all the show that's what I do in all the comments I mean anybody who's been in comments I mean anybody who's been in comments I mean anybody who's been in the internet for 10 minutes knows it's the internet for 10 minutes knows it's the internet for 10 minutes knows it's not hard to attract commenters who are not hard to attract commenters who are not hard to attract commenters who are in that and we just kind of let those in that and we just kind of let those in that and we just kind of let those comments die if they come become really comments die if they come become really comments die if they come become really disruptive it's it's like hey that's not disruptive it's it's like hey that's not disruptive it's it's like hey that's not what we're leading with here just so you what we're leading with here just so you what we're leading with here just so you know we're going to focus on the gospel know we're going to focus on the gospel know we're going to focus on the gospel we're going to focus on a different uh we're going to focus on a different uh we're going to focus on a different uh emphasis what are your thoughts about emphasis what are your thoughts about emphasis what are your thoughts about that in the moment good strategy bad that in the moment good strategy bad that in the moment good strategy bad strategy or outdated feel free to you strategy or outdated feel free to you strategy or outdated feel free to you know no I think I can be a good strategy know no I think I can be a good strategy know no I think I can be a good strategy I think you know again to with our I think you know again to with our I think you know again to with our Rebuilders podcast you know we have some Rebuilders podcast you know we have some Rebuilders podcast you know we have some similar things where um you know like T similar things where um you know like T similar things where um you know like T time is really important and you know

time is really important and you know time is really important and you know people talk about rabbit holes and people talk about rabbit holes and people talk about rabbit holes and there's you know fascinations that there's you know fascinations that there's you know fascinations that people get into I have my own people get into I have my own people get into I have my own Fascinations about obscure issues you Fascinations about obscure issues you Fascinations about obscure issues you I'll go down but I also know that you I'll go down but I also know that you I'll go down but I also know that you know if I'm at a dinner party probably know if I'm at a dinner party probably know if I'm at a dinner party probably people don't want to hear about my people don't want to hear about my people don't want to hear about my exploration of you know the political exploration of you know the political exploration of you know the political culture of some random country in the culture of some random country in the culture of some random country in the 1970s you know so you got to learn of 1970s you know so you got to learn of 1970s you know so you got to learn of when it's appropriate and um so I think when it's appropriate and um so I think when it's appropriate and um so I think it's actually a good one I think it's a it's actually a good one I think it's a it's actually a good one I think it's a good one for many issues as well today good one for many issues as well today good one for many issues as well today um that just because we have an opinion um that just because we have an opinion um that just because we have an opinion and we have platforms that enable us to and we have platforms that enable us to and we have platforms that enable us to broadcast our opinion that doesn't broadcast our opinion that doesn't broadcast our opinion that doesn't always translate into interpersonal always translate into interpersonal always translate into interpersonal relationships in the same way so I think relationships in the same way so I think relationships in the same way so I think it's a good it's a good it's a good approach yeah and I find if you if you approach yeah and I find if you if you approach yeah and I find if you if you fan it you kind of fuel it and if you fan it you kind of fuel it and if you fan it you kind of fuel it and if you let it die it's like that's that's kind let it die it's like that's that's kind let it die it's like that's that's kind of not what we're about here we're going of not what we're about here we're going of not what we're about here we're going to focus on reaching people introducing to focus on reaching people introducing to focus on reaching people introducing people to the gospel you know you're people to the gospel you know you're people to the gospel you know you're working really hard on Revival right now working really hard on Revival right now working really hard on Revival right now you can point them to what God is doing you can point them to what God is doing you can point them to what God is doing in your midst etc etc okay helpful um in your midst etc etc okay helpful um in your midst etc etc okay helpful um there's also I really appreciated your there's also I really appreciated your there's also I really appreciated your work on Elite power and Corruption as work on Elite power and Corruption as work on Elite power and Corruption as well clearly there's corruption around well clearly there's corruption around well clearly there's corruption around the world I mean I've read um major the world I mean I've read um major the world I mean I've read um major corporations have got like a they don't corporations have got like a they don't corporations have got like a they don't call it uh maybe I heard this on your call it uh maybe I heard this on your call it uh maybe I heard this on your podcast I can't remember whether it was podcast I can't remember whether it was podcast I can't remember whether it was from a friend but it was like you know from a friend but it was like you know from a friend but it was like you know we have a director in charge of we have a director in charge of we have a director in charge of corruption to make sure that things corruption to make sure that things corruption to make sure that things actually cross borders and you know actually cross borders and you know actually cross borders and you know government officials and part of me in government officials and part of me in government officials and part of me in my little you know naive bubble that I my little you know naive bubble that I my little you know naive bubble that I live in wants to believe that's not true live in wants to believe that's not true live in wants to believe that's not true but it's true so on the one hand you can

but it's true so on the one hand you can but it's true so on the one hand you can live in denial it's like none of that live in denial it's like none of that live in denial it's like none of that stuff is real on the other hand you can stuff is real on the other hand you can stuff is real on the other hand you can be like everybody's corrupt and you know be like everybody's corrupt and you know be like everybody's corrupt and you know I got a theory about this and um you I got a theory about this and um you I got a theory about this and um you know the elites are always stealing know the elites are always stealing know the elites are always stealing power Etc you know you should see what power Etc you know you should see what power Etc you know you should see what happens at the world economic Forum Etc happens at the world economic Forum Etc happens at the world economic Forum Etc um I would love your thoughts um I would love your thoughts um I would love your thoughts on how to Pastor when that becomes an on how to Pastor when that becomes an on how to Pastor when that becomes an issue for the people you're issue for the people you're issue for the people you're leading yeah I think what what's leading yeah I think what what's leading yeah I think what what's happened in in many contexts it's happened in in many contexts it's happened in in many contexts it's happened globally it's more intense in happened globally it's more intense in happened globally it's more intense in some places I would say the the United some places I would say the the United some places I would say the the United States is one place where this is more States is one place where this is more States is one place where this is more intense is that suspicion of power and intense is that suspicion of power and intense is that suspicion of power and Elites has trickled down um so instead Elites has trickled down um so instead Elites has trickled down um so instead of like you know those two large you of like you know those two large you of like you know those two large you know billionaires who are behind that know billionaires who are behind that know billionaires who are behind that political campaign in that election it political campaign in that election it political campaign in that election it becomes well my pastor what you you're becomes well my pastor what you you're becomes well my pastor what you you're part of this um or part of this big part of this um or part of this big part of this um or part of this big story so there's this innate suspicion story so there's this innate suspicion story so there's this innate suspicion around power um you know I I think that around power um you know I I think that around power um you know I I think that there's an element where you know I've there's an element where you know I've there's an element where you know I've been in situations where you meet people been in situations where you meet people been in situations where you meet people who have influence and and when you who have influence and and when you who have influence and and when you start to understand some things you start to understand some things you start to understand some things you realize that again there's a lot we realize that again there's a lot we realize that again there's a lot we don't know um and that's disempowering don't know um and that's disempowering don't know um and that's disempowering but it's not always uh the worst if that but it's not always uh the worst if that but it's not always uh the worst if that makes sense but sadly that suspicion you makes sense but sadly that suspicion you makes sense but sadly that suspicion you know hermeneutic of Suspicion if you know hermeneutic of Suspicion if you know hermeneutic of Suspicion if you like um has become part of so many like um has become part of so many like um has become part of so many places where I think we we there's places where I think we we there's places where I think we we there's almost a a sort of left rejection of almost a a sort of left rejection of almost a a sort of left rejection of power as something which inherently power as something which inherently power as something which inherently creates a hierarchy but there's also a creates a hierarchy but there's also a creates a hierarchy but there's also a conservative rejection of power that conservative rejection of power that conservative rejection of power that anyone in power now is pushing a secret anyone in power now is pushing a secret anyone in power now is pushing a secret agenda as well um you know in in agenda as well um you know in in agenda as well um you know in in Australia and some other countries we

Australia and some other countries we Australia and some other countries we have something called The Tall poppy have something called The Tall poppy have something called The Tall poppy syndrome where um those in leadership syndrome where um those in leadership syndrome where um those in leadership must be cut down so I think you know must be cut down so I think you know must be cut down so I think you know being an Australian you're just born being an Australian you're just born being an Australian you're just born into a cultural context where power is into a cultural context where power is into a cultural context where power is is seen as suspicious um anyone has is seen as suspicious um anyone has is seen as suspicious um anyone has power um you know must be sort of power um you know must be sort of power um you know must be sort of brought down uh and there's an element brought down uh and there's an element brought down uh and there's an element there which I think that one way I've there which I think that one way I've there which I think that one way I've seen it it's really difficult at times seen it it's really difficult at times seen it it's really difficult at times but it creates a humbling Dynamic but it creates a humbling Dynamic but it creates a humbling Dynamic constantly and it's a thorn in the flesh constantly and it's a thorn in the flesh constantly and it's a thorn in the flesh at times but I think it also does at times but I think it also does at times but I think it also does undermine the potential to go to the undermine the potential to go to the undermine the potential to go to the opposite extreme which is to allow power opposite extreme which is to allow power opposite extreme which is to allow power to corrupt you um so you know what it to corrupt you um so you know what it to corrupt you um so you know what it means is that your authentic self having means is that your authentic self having means is that your authentic self having to win people over sit down with people to win people over sit down with people to win people over sit down with people work through people see people see see work through people see people see see work through people see people see see you as an actual human being who's also you as an actual human being who's also you as an actual human being who's also leading at the same time I think there's leading at the same time I think there's leading at the same time I think there's also an invitation in that moment as also an invitation in that moment as also an invitation in that moment as well and helping people understand that well and helping people understand that well and helping people understand that you know leaders are also servants um you know leaders are also servants um you know leaders are also servants um you know and uh leaders are actually you know and uh leaders are actually you know and uh leaders are actually here to to partner with those that they here to to partner with those that they here to to partner with those that they lead think once you get into that sort lead think once you get into that sort lead think once you get into that sort of posture it begins to undermine some of posture it begins to undermine some of posture it begins to undermine some of those those of those those of those those Dynamics you know I'm curious about this Dynamics you know I'm curious about this Dynamics you know I'm curious about this because you're extremely well read you because you're extremely well read you because you're extremely well read you watch YouTube videos for a hobby you watch YouTube videos for a hobby you watch YouTube videos for a hobby you read for a hobby be curious to know what read for a hobby be curious to know what read for a hobby be curious to know what Rabbit Hole you're following yourself Rabbit Hole you're following yourself Rabbit Hole you're following yourself personally that might bomb at a cocktail personally that might bomb at a cocktail personally that might bomb at a cocktail party um but you know you're you're party um but you know you're you're party um but you know you're you're right I I take a month off every summer right I I take a month off every summer right I I take a month off every summer and that month isn't spent entirely and that month isn't spent entirely and that month isn't spent entirely offline but it's largely offline and one offline but it's largely offline and one offline but it's largely offline and one of the things that always amazes me is

of the things that always amazes me is of the things that always amazes me is and I don't want to be agnostic about and I don't want to be agnostic about and I don't want to be agnostic about what's happening at the world in the what's happening at the world in the what's happening at the world in the world or indifferent to what's happening world or indifferent to what's happening world or indifferent to what's happening in the world I believe God has a plan in the world I believe God has a plan in the world I believe God has a plan for the world I believe he loves the for the world I believe he loves the for the world I believe he loves the world Etc but it's amazing how much of world Etc but it's amazing how much of world Etc but it's amazing how much of that steady diet of information in that steady diet of information in that steady diet of information in social media has zero bearing on social media has zero bearing on social media has zero bearing on day-to-day life you can you know unless day-to-day life you can you know unless day-to-day life you can you know unless there's some kind of nuclear Holocaust there's some kind of nuclear Holocaust there's some kind of nuclear Holocaust or whatever you can live through an or whatever you can live through an or whatever you can live through an election you can live through um you election you can live through um you election you can live through um you know and that's a privileged position know and that's a privileged position know and that's a privileged position living in a peaceful country living in a peaceful country living in a peaceful country in North America or Australia but it's in North America or Australia but it's in North America or Australia but it's amazing how much that stuff gets in your amazing how much that stuff gets in your amazing how much that stuff gets in your head when you're following it and how head when you're following it and how head when you're following it and how irrelevant it really is if you spend a irrelevant it really is if you spend a irrelevant it really is if you spend a month or a week largely offline any month or a week largely offline any month or a week largely offline any thoughts thoughts thoughts about healthy amounts of intake healthy about healthy amounts of intake healthy about healthy amounts of intake healthy amounts of information versus unhealthy amounts of information versus unhealthy amounts of information versus unhealthy amounts of amounts of amounts of information I think I think it's um you information I think I think it's um you information I think I think it's um you know like you can eat different kinds of know like you can eat different kinds of know like you can eat different kinds of food and has different calorie you know food and has different calorie you know food and has different calorie you know levels and and health or it's processed levels and and health or it's processed levels and and health or it's processed or whatever and I think part of part of or whatever and I think part of part of or whatever and I think part of part of what this is is it is a quantity amount what this is is it is a quantity amount what this is is it is a quantity amount but it's also a quality issue if that but it's also a quality issue if that but it's also a quality issue if that makes sense so for example um you know makes sense so for example um you know makes sense so for example um you know there is currently a conflict in Sudan there is currently a conflict in Sudan there is currently a conflict in Sudan and um you know it's incredibly tragic and um you know it's incredibly tragic and um you know it's incredibly tragic and you know it has geopolitical and you know it has geopolitical and you know it has geopolitical implications and virtually no one knows implications and virtually no one knows implications and virtually no one knows about it um you know the death toll is about it um you know the death toll is about it um you know the death toll is is incredible and people outside of is incredible and people outside of is incredible and people outside of perhaps the you know sudes diaspora um perhaps the you know sudes diaspora um perhaps the you know sudes diaspora um uh you know there's very few people who

uh you know there's very few people who uh you know there's very few people who are talking about this so sit and read are talking about this so sit and read are talking about this so sit and read say New York Times article which gets say New York Times article which gets say New York Times article which gets into the history of this conflict who into the history of this conflict who into the history of this conflict who are the different sides what's going on are the different sides what's going on are the different sides what's going on uh you read that that does bring a uh you read that that does bring a uh you read that that does bring a different emotion than if you're just different emotion than if you're just different emotion than if you're just flicking through memes of you know flicking through memes of you know flicking through memes of you know culture War stuff in the election you culture War stuff in the election you culture War stuff in the election you know so for me one thing I try and do is know so for me one thing I try and do is know so for me one thing I try and do is you know I do ingest a lot of content I you know I do ingest a lot of content I you know I do ingest a lot of content I often say to people you don't have to be often say to people you don't have to be often say to people you don't have to be me I run a podcast I'm fascinated by me I run a podcast I'm fascinated by me I run a podcast I'm fascinated by this stuff this stuff this stuff but one thing that I I I do differently but one thing that I I I do differently but one thing that I I I do differently is I always go to the macro what's the is I always go to the macro what's the is I always go to the macro what's the big story here um so that that's me but big story here um so that that's me but big story here um so that that's me but I think you know clicking I think you know clicking I think you know clicking off is is is really crucial I think the off is is is really crucial I think the off is is is really crucial I think the fact that our phones are constantly in fact that our phones are constantly in fact that our phones are constantly in our pocket your phone is the business our pocket your phone is the business our pocket your phone is the business model of your phone is to get you model of your phone is to get you model of your phone is to get you looking at it as much as possible and looking at it as much as possible and looking at it as much as possible and getting you angry about politics one way getting you angry about politics one way getting you angry about politics one way it can do that and actually it's it's it can do that and actually it's it's it can do that and actually it's it's you are a like like just as you know oil you are a like like just as you know oil you are a like like just as you know oil is a resource or lithium is a resource is a resource or lithium is a resource is a resource or lithium is a resource that people are trying to pull out of that people are trying to pull out of that people are trying to pull out of the earth they're trying to pull your the earth they're trying to pull your the earth they're trying to pull your attention out of the earth and that's attention out of the earth and that's attention out of the earth and that's sold on your attention to companies and sold on your attention to companies and sold on your attention to companies and billions and billions of dollars are billions and billions of dollars are billions and billions of dollars are made from your attention so some of the made from your attention so some of the made from your attention so some of the smartest minds are out there trying to smartest minds are out there trying to smartest minds are out there trying to get your attention so you know like I get your attention so you know like I get your attention so you know like I was looking a bunch of stuff the other was looking a bunch of stuff the other was looking a bunch of stuff the other day and just having those moments when day and just having those moments when day and just having those moments when you switch off go outside look at the you switch off go outside look at the you switch off go outside look at the natural environment you're in you know natural environment you're in you know natural environment you're in you know I'm looking a lot of overseas stuff and I'm looking a lot of overseas stuff and I'm looking a lot of overseas stuff and then I want I'm in Melbourne I'm in this then I want I'm in Melbourne I'm in this then I want I'm in Melbourne I'm in this particular Melbourne there's the hills particular Melbourne there's the hills particular Melbourne there's the hills over there here's these trees they're over there here's these trees they're over there here's these trees they're going to be here in 10 years when these

going to be here in 10 years when these going to be here in 10 years when these politicians come and go I think that politicians come and go I think that politicians come and go I think that Eternal perspective is really key the Eternal perspective is really key the Eternal perspective is really key the other thing too is that there is a other thing too is that there is a other thing too is that there is a disempowering I I think it was Thomas disempowering I I think it was Thomas disempowering I I think it was Thomas Kelly in a testament of devotion his Kelly in a testament of devotion his Kelly in a testament of devotion his book which talked about that we actually book which talked about that we actually book which talked about that we actually can't affect as much as we think so you can't affect as much as we think so you can't affect as much as we think so you just got to pick one thing that you're just got to pick one thing that you're just got to pick one thing that you're going to do most of our influence going to do most of our influence going to do most of our influence actually is going to be a local level actually is going to be a local level actually is going to be a local level with the people you meet walking your with the people you meet walking your with the people you meet walking your kids to school um we have a political kids to school um we have a political kids to school um we have a political influence in the world but it's actually influence in the world but it's actually influence in the world but it's actually far less than we think um and realizing far less than we think um and realizing far less than we think um and realizing that is a humbling thing but also a that is a humbling thing but also a that is a humbling thing but also a freeing thing well and it's a difference freeing thing well and it's a difference freeing thing well and it's a difference between being outraged at what's between being outraged at what's between being outraged at what's happening in a capital city of your happening in a capital city of your happening in a capital city of your country what's happening in Washington country what's happening in Washington country what's happening in Washington what's happening in you know London or what's happening in you know London or what's happening in you know London or something like that ver which you something like that ver which you something like that ver which you probably can't control versus your probably can't control versus your probably can't control versus your neighbor who needs someone to mow their neighbor who needs someone to mow their neighbor who needs someone to mow their lawn or uh a friend who's grieving that lawn or uh a friend who's grieving that lawn or uh a friend who's grieving that really needs someone to come sit with really needs someone to come sit with really needs someone to come sit with them right and I'm not saying you have them right and I'm not saying you have them right and I'm not saying you have to completely ignore that um I'd love to to completely ignore that um I'd love to to completely ignore that um I'd love to know I've talked to Seth Goden about know I've talked to Seth Goden about know I've talked to Seth Goden about this he's coming back on the podcast this he's coming back on the podcast this he's coming back on the podcast this fall which I'm excited for uh but this fall which I'm excited for uh but this fall which I'm excited for uh but he says choose your sources really he says choose your sources really he says choose your sources really really carefully and I think there's really carefully and I think there's really carefully and I think there's wisdom to that and you know as they say wisdom to that and you know as they say wisdom to that and you know as they say you're not going to beat the algorithm you're not going to beat the algorithm you're not going to beat the algorithm and I'm struggling with that too you and I'm struggling with that too you and I'm struggling with that too you know I'll get sucked into reals and I'm know I'll get sucked into reals and I'm know I'll get sucked into reals and I'm there for longer than I want to be and there for longer than I want to be and there for longer than I want to be and I'm like man that that force is very I'm like man that that force is very I'm like man that that force is very very difficult to defeat so what are very difficult to defeat so what are very difficult to defeat so what are some filters boundaries guard rails

some filters boundaries guard rails some filters boundaries guard rails guidelines that you have embraced to guidelines that you have embraced to guidelines that you have embraced to make sure that your online consumption make sure that your online consumption make sure that your online consumption is more constructive than is more constructive than is more constructive than destructive so I listen destructive so I listen destructive so I listen to um podcast like yeah I know you're to um podcast like yeah I know you're to um podcast like yeah I know you're recovering from a from a cold so I'm recovering from a from a cold so I'm recovering from a from a cold so I'm really glad that you were able to do really glad that you were able to do really glad that you were able to do this yeah um yeah so some some things this yeah um yeah so some some things this yeah um yeah so some some things that I listen to is like podcasts um that I listen to is like podcasts um that I listen to is like podcasts um like the BBC World servers like the BBC World servers like the BBC World servers uh which give you an overarching thing I uh which give you an overarching thing I uh which give you an overarching thing I I listen to the news but then I I put it I listen to the news but then I I put it I listen to the news but then I I put it so I have in my day a time where I'm so I have in my day a time where I'm so I have in my day a time where I'm going to consume the news and um I going to consume the news and um I going to consume the news and um I actually think text is better than reals actually think text is better than reals actually think text is better than reals and memes and all of this um you know and memes and all of this um you know and memes and all of this um you know like and you know reading an article like and you know reading an article like and you know reading an article where you understand the broadness of a where you understand the broadness of a where you understand the broadness of a topic um it's also really helpful to get topic um it's also really helpful to get topic um it's also really helpful to get outside of your own country one of the outside of your own country one of the outside of your own country one of the brilliant things about this time in brilliant things about this time in brilliant things about this time in history is that you can look at new history is that you can look at new history is that you can look at new sources from other countries which I sources from other countries which I sources from other countries which I often do you know and you begin to often do you know and you begin to often do you know and you begin to realize so like Indian politics is you realize so like Indian politics is you realize so like Indian politics is you know very energetic and has its own know very energetic and has its own know very energetic and has its own cultural issues and you know I cultural issues and you know I cultural issues and you know I understand some of them uh but it's just understand some of them uh but it's just understand some of them uh but it's just interesting sometimes to jump on an interesting sometimes to jump on an interesting sometimes to jump on an Indian newspaper and we go wow they're Indian newspaper and we go wow they're Indian newspaper and we go wow they're all angry about this stuff but I don't all angry about this stuff but I don't all angry about this stuff but I don't even understand who half these people even understand who half these people even understand who half these people are and once you sort of have a distance are and once you sort of have a distance are and once you sort of have a distance from it it it gives you perspective back from it it it gives you perspective back from it it it gives you perspective back on your own environment that this is on your own environment that this is on your own environment that this is what this must look like to Outsiders um what this must look like to Outsiders um what this must look like to Outsiders um so I think in terms of sourcing Mo most so I think in terms of sourcing Mo most so I think in terms of sourcing Mo most news is biased towards a particular news is biased towards a particular news is biased towards a particular direction uh it doesn't give you all the direction uh it doesn't give you all the direction uh it doesn't give you all the information information information uh trying to get as a broad perspective uh trying to get as a broad perspective uh trying to get as a broad perspective as possible uh and then having limits on

as possible uh and then having limits on as possible uh and then having limits on that you know think about the fact that that you know think about the fact that that you know think about the fact that you know my dad growing up my dad was you know my dad growing up my dad was you know my dad growing up my dad was always very engaged with the news and he always very engaged with the news and he always very engaged with the news and he would wake up listen to the radio for 20 would wake up listen to the radio for 20 would wake up listen to the radio for 20 minutes as he got ready he' read the minutes as he got ready he' read the minutes as he got ready he' read the newspaper with his breakfast and then he newspaper with his breakfast and then he newspaper with his breakfast and then he would engage with the news during the would engage with the news during the would engage with the news during the day he went to work he got on the train day he went to work he got on the train day he went to work he got on the train and he'd come home at night and watch and he'd come home at night and watch and he'd come home at night and watch the 7 o'cl news uh which made him very the 7 o'cl news uh which made him very the 7 o'cl news uh which made him very informed but there was boundaries around informed but there was boundaries around informed but there was boundaries around that you know he wasn't constantly that you know he wasn't constantly that you know he wasn't constantly following things so I think having your following things so I think having your following things so I think having your own we've got to put the boundaries in own we've got to put the boundaries in own we've got to put the boundaries in now so just having a moment of the day now so just having a moment of the day now so just having a moment of the day if you do want to be informed about the if you do want to be informed about the if you do want to be informed about the word which I think we should I still word which I think we should I still word which I think we should I still believe I it's the Bon Hopper quote you believe I it's the Bon Hopper quote you believe I it's the Bon Hopper quote you know read the Bible with your newspaper know read the Bible with your newspaper know read the Bible with your newspaper in one hand I think that's still in one hand I think that's still in one hand I think that's still important to know what to pray in the important to know what to pray in the important to know what to pray in the world engage with the world but having world engage with the world but having world engage with the world but having limitations around that uh so that limitations around that uh so that limitations around that uh so that you're not constantly being overwhelmed you're not constantly being overwhelmed you're not constantly being overwhelmed I think that's really I think that's really I think that's really important yeah and it's important for important yeah and it's important for important yeah and it's important for people to know as much as you enjoy this people to know as much as you enjoy this people to know as much as you enjoy this you are leading a local church that's you are leading a local church that's you are leading a local church that's got Services every weekend and people to got Services every weekend and people to got Services every weekend and people to minister to etc etc you've mentioned and minister to etc etc you've mentioned and minister to etc etc you've mentioned and we talked about this briefly the 1930s we talked about this briefly the 1930s we talked about this briefly the 1930s the second world war um I'm wondering if the second world war um I'm wondering if the second world war um I'm wondering if you see parallels to the second world you see parallels to the second world you see parallels to the second world war you know you mentioned Bon Hoffer war you know you mentioned Bon Hoffer war you know you mentioned Bon Hoffer the Nazi sympathizers with the the Nazi sympathizers with the the Nazi sympathizers with the Evangelical Church versus the confessing Evangelical Church versus the confessing Evangelical Church versus the confessing Church uh we've heard those Illusions Church uh we've heard those Illusions Church uh we've heard those Illusions made over the last five or 10 years do made over the last five or 10 years do made over the last five or 10 years do you see that at all or you think nah you see that at all or you think nah you see that at all or you think nah this is a different this is a different this is a different era yeah I mean I think there was um era yeah I mean I think there was um era yeah I mean I think there was um there's a difference between what there's a difference between what there's a difference between what happened in the beginning of the 1930s happened in the beginning of the 1930s happened in the beginning of the 1930s and what happened the end of the 1930s and what happened the end of the 1930s and what happened the end of the 1930s at the beginning of the 1930s you had um at the beginning of the 1930s you had um at the beginning of the 1930s you had um you know real polarization um there was

you know real polarization um there was you know real polarization um there was a sense that liberal democracies were a sense that liberal democracies were a sense that liberal democracies were under tremendous pressure there was the under tremendous pressure there was the under tremendous pressure there was the tremendous economic effects of the of tremendous economic effects of the of tremendous economic effects of the of the Great Depression Which is far worse the Great Depression Which is far worse the Great Depression Which is far worse than what we have now um there was you than what we have now um there was you than what we have now um there was you know bolic um sort of military you know know bolic um sort of military you know know bolic um sort of military you know militias on the street versus fascist militias on the street versus fascist militias on the street versus fascist militias in different countries and that militias in different countries and that militias in different countries and that happened in more places Than People happened in more places Than People happened in more places Than People realize um and there was just a sense realize um and there was just a sense realize um and there was just a sense that um Society was coming undone now that um Society was coming undone now that um Society was coming undone now what that led to was you know some what that led to was you know some what that led to was you know some various you know fascist regimes in various you know fascist regimes in various you know fascist regimes in different countries like Italy and different countries like Italy and different countries like Italy and Germany I don't think we're at that Germany I don't think we're at that Germany I don't think we're at that stage yet um I think we're earlier on stage yet um I think we're earlier on stage yet um I think we're earlier on and you I think as Mike Twain said and you I think as Mike Twain said and you I think as Mike Twain said history repeats that's a Rhymes but it history repeats that's a Rhymes but it history repeats that's a Rhymes but it doesn't repeat so I think there's doesn't repeat so I think there's doesn't repeat so I think there's dangers where you can learn from it and dangers where you can learn from it and dangers where you can learn from it and see some parallels um you know are we at see some parallels um you know are we at see some parallels um you know are we at the stage um where uh you know we're at the stage um where uh you know we're at the stage um where uh you know we're at a bon Hopper stage I don't think so in a bon Hopper stage I don't think so in a bon Hopper stage I don't think so in many Western countries it's really many Western countries it's really many Western countries it's really important you know I've sat and spoken important you know I've sat and spoken important you know I've sat and spoken to Christians in Iran and um when you to Christians in Iran and um when you to Christians in Iran and um when you hear what it's like to be Christian in hear what it's like to be Christian in hear what it's like to be Christian in Iran or places like that or hear from Iran or places like that or hear from Iran or places like that or hear from North Koreans um who I think are in a North Koreans um who I think are in a North Koreans um who I think are in a bon Hopper situation you begin to bon Hopper situation you begin to bon Hopper situation you begin to realize the difference between where we realize the difference between where we realize the difference between where we are as well and I think one of the are as well and I think one of the are as well and I think one of the difficulties in culture War there's a difficulties in culture War there's a difficulties in culture War there's a term maximalist maximalist is taking term maximalist maximalist is taking term maximalist maximalist is taking every position to the extreme view so every position to the extreme view so every position to the extreme view so people say you know we're here I don't people say you know we're here I don't people say you know we're here I don't think we're here yet we need Nuance in think we're here yet we need Nuance in think we're here yet we need Nuance in these particular things we always need these particular things we always need these particular things we always need to be vigilant about you know where to be vigilant about you know where to be vigilant about you know where things could go politically but we also things could go politically but we also things could go politically but we also need to be realistic yeah and when you

need to be realistic yeah and when you need to be realistic yeah and when you talk to someone from Iran where you know talk to someone from Iran where you know talk to someone from Iran where you know they're basically preparing for the fact they're basically preparing for the fact they're basically preparing for the fact that you know they could go to jail at that you know they could go to jail at that you know they could go to jail at any moment and what's the plan when the any moment and what's the plan when the any moment and what's the plan when the SE of police Rock up your house because SE of police Rock up your house because SE of police Rock up your house because you're a pastor uh you know I don't you're a pastor uh you know I don't you're a pastor uh you know I don't think we're at that stage uh at all yeah think we're at that stage uh at all yeah think we're at that stage uh at all yeah can for those who may not be familiar can for those who may not be familiar can for those who may not be familiar with Bon hofer's history can you give us with Bon hofer's history can you give us with Bon hofer's history can you give us the thumbnail on dietr Bon hoofer yeah the thumbnail on dietr Bon hoofer yeah the thumbnail on dietr Bon hoofer yeah yeah it Bon Hofer was part of a group um yeah it Bon Hofer was part of a group um yeah it Bon Hofer was part of a group um you know called the confessing Church um you know called the confessing Church um you know called the confessing Church um you know which realized as uh Fascism you know which realized as uh Fascism you know which realized as uh Fascism and Nazism you know Rose in in in and Nazism you know Rose in in in and Nazism you know Rose in in in Germany um that um they had to take a Germany um that um they had to take a Germany um that um they had to take a stand as the Nazi State tried to shape stand as the Nazi State tried to shape stand as the Nazi State tried to shape the church particular State the Lutheran the church particular State the Lutheran the church particular State the Lutheran Church towards its ends and uh for Bon Church towards its ends and uh for Bon Church towards its ends and uh for Bon Hofer this this took him on a a sort of Hofer this this took him on a a sort of Hofer this this took him on a a sort of Journey that was you know theological Journey that was you know theological Journey that was you know theological and political where he was you know in and political where he was you know in and political where he was you know in Oxford he was he was in a sense in Oxford he was he was in a sense in Oxford he was he was in a sense in safety but he decided to come back to safety but he decided to come back to safety but he decided to come back to Germany to serve the the confessing Germany to serve the the confessing Germany to serve the the confessing church and be as a witness uh to the church and be as a witness uh to the church and be as a witness uh to the church and this led him towards being church and this led him towards being church and this led him towards being part of a plot um with some other part of a plot um with some other part of a plot um with some other political figures to assassinate Hitler political figures to assassinate Hitler political figures to assassinate Hitler and um this plot then saw him imprisoned and um this plot then saw him imprisoned and um this plot then saw him imprisoned and sadly he lost his life at the very and sadly he lost his life at the very and sadly he lost his life at the very end of the L war and became a mar so Bon end of the L war and became a mar so Bon end of the L war and became a mar so Bon Hofer for a lot of people provides a Hofer for a lot of people provides a Hofer for a lot of people provides a example of how do you resist you know to example of how do you resist you know to example of how do you resist you know to itarian regimes and how do you stay true itarian regimes and how do you stay true itarian regimes and how do you stay true to your faith in a moment of to your faith in a moment of to your faith in a moment of totalitarianism yeah an interesting

totalitarianism yeah an interesting totalitarianism yeah an interesting study I want to read some more Bon Hofer study I want to read some more Bon Hofer study I want to read some more Bon Hofer this year okay I want to uh drill down this year okay I want to uh drill down this year okay I want to uh drill down on some very practical dos and don'ts on some very practical dos and don'ts on some very practical dos and don'ts and strategies and tactics that I want and strategies and tactics that I want and strategies and tactics that I want to cover with you but before we leave to cover with you but before we leave to cover with you but before we leave that is there any other broad that is there any other broad that is there any other broad overarching philosophical theological overarching philosophical theological overarching philosophical theological metaphorical issue that you think is metaphorical issue that you think is metaphorical issue that you think is color in the conversation now that maybe color in the conversation now that maybe color in the conversation now that maybe we haven't touched we haven't touched we haven't touched on I I I think that um I think what on I I I think that um I think what on I I I think that um I think what people need to realize is that we're in people need to realize is that we're in people need to realize is that we're in a political process which is very normal a political process which is very normal a political process which is very normal throughout history I think part of the throughout history I think part of the throughout history I think part of the reasons this moment seems so crazy uh is reasons this moment seems so crazy uh is reasons this moment seems so crazy uh is we went through an unusual period of we went through an unusual period of we went through an unusual period of History you know in the 90s the 2000s History you know in the 90s the 2000s History you know in the 90s the 2000s where the world seemed peaceful and where the world seemed peaceful and where the world seemed peaceful and politics in a sense seemed over Francis politics in a sense seemed over Francis politics in a sense seemed over Francis fiama the the American IC scientist fiama the the American IC scientist fiama the the American IC scientist declared the end of history and what he declared the end of history and what he declared the end of history and what he meant by that is the great struggle for meant by that is the great struggle for meant by that is the great struggle for what political system is going to run what political system is going to run what political system is going to run the world is over and liberal the world is over and liberal the world is over and liberal capitalistic democracy won and so people capitalistic democracy won and so people capitalistic democracy won and so people have grown up in this really weird time have grown up in this really weird time have grown up in this really weird time where you could just do church and get where you could just do church and get where you could just do church and get as many people in a room and you didn't as many people in a room and you didn't as many people in a room and you didn't have to deal with political issues and have to deal with political issues and have to deal with political issues and it was more about you know what's the it was more about you know what's the it was more about you know what's the car parking situation like or you know car parking situation like or you know car parking situation like or you know are the seats comfortable um and in a are the seats comfortable um and in a are the seats comfortable um and in a sense we've just returned to normality sense we've just returned to normality sense we've just returned to normality so I think that's really important for so I think that's really important for so I think that's really important for people to know read about the 14th people to know read about the 14th people to know read about the 14th century read about the 1930s you know century read about the 1930s you know century read about the 1930s you know read about the 1960s you know like the read about the 1960s you know like the read about the 1960s you know like the church has always been involved in very church has always been involved in very church has always been involved in very politically fractur times the other politically fractur times the other politically fractur times the other thing I was going to say too is I think

thing I was going to say too is I think thing I was going to say too is I think it's really important that people don't it's really important that people don't it's really important that people don't see what you know particularly in the US see what you know particularly in the US see what you know particularly in the US and and some of these elections I think and and some of these elections I think and and some of these elections I think happening that this is not going to be a happening that this is not going to be a happening that this is not going to be a rerun of 2016 or 2020 there are new rerun of 2016 or 2020 there are new rerun of 2016 or 2020 there are new things happening in the world politics things happening in the world politics things happening in the world politics is fragmenting I think we're moving from is fragmenting I think we're moving from is fragmenting I think we're moving from polarization to hyper fragmentation um polarization to hyper fragmentation um polarization to hyper fragmentation um where it's not going to be two sides where it's not going to be two sides where it's not going to be two sides versus each other uh it's also happening versus each other uh it's also happening versus each other uh it's also happening in a world which geopolitics is in a world which geopolitics is in a world which geopolitics is influencing more and more and more that influencing more and more and more that influencing more and more and more that uh what happens in a country on the uh what happens in a country on the uh what happens in a country on the other side of the world so we are moving other side of the world so we are moving other side of the world so we are moving almost to a cold war situation in the almost to a cold war situation in the almost to a cold war situation in the world where you've got sort of an world where you've got sort of an world where you've got sort of an alliance of NATO Western countries uh alliance of NATO Western countries uh alliance of NATO Western countries uh sort of positioning themselves sort of positioning themselves sort of positioning themselves increasingly against the sort of axis of increasingly against the sort of axis of increasingly against the sort of axis of Russia China Iran Venezuela countries Russia China Iran Venezuela countries Russia China Iran Venezuela countries like that uh so you know this is going like that uh so you know this is going like that uh so you know this is going to shape the elections going forward to shape the elections going forward to shape the elections going forward they might not seem like they did in the they might not seem like they did in the they might not seem like they did in the past and they're actually going to be I past and they're actually going to be I past and they're actually going to be I think more complex and that level of think more complex and that level of think more complex and that level of complexity I think is going to create uh complexity I think is going to create uh complexity I think is going to create uh is going to undermine polarization so I is going to undermine polarization so I is going to undermine polarization so I think polarization is going to be Slowly think polarization is going to be Slowly think polarization is going to be Slowly undermined by the complexity in the undermined by the complexity in the undermined by the complexity in the world so what a lot of us grew up in and world so what a lot of us grew up in and world so what a lot of us grew up in and got used to leading in is a bubble and got used to leading in is a bubble and got used to leading in is a bubble and it's over 100% 100% wow yeah yeah I mean it's over 100% 100% wow yeah yeah I mean it's over 100% 100% wow yeah yeah I mean that's sobering but it's also helpful to that's sobering but it's also helpful to that's sobering but it's also helpful to know so in light of all that Mark uh I know so in light of all that Mark uh I know so in light of all that Mark uh I want to know what are some dos and want to know what are some dos and want to know what are some dos and don'ts don'ts don'ts that you would have for pastors leading that you would have for pastors leading that you would have for pastors leading through this fall and Beyond because through this fall and Beyond because through this fall and Beyond because whatever happens this isn't going away whatever happens this isn't going away whatever happens this isn't going away we're in a different world what are what

we're in a different world what are what we're in a different world what are what are some dos and don'ts in your mind for are some dos and don'ts in your mind for are some dos and don'ts in your mind for leaders on the ground number one is leaders on the ground number one is leaders on the ground number one is understand your context um I think understand your context um I think understand your context um I think because we feel like um you know social because we feel like um you know social because we feel like um you know social media makes the world close um what is media makes the world close um what is media makes the world close um what is the actual realities in your particular the actual realities in your particular the actual realities in your particular context um and you may be blind to them context um and you may be blind to them context um and you may be blind to them so for example you know where we are so for example you know where we are so for example you know where we are here in in Melbourne um there is um you here in in Melbourne um there is um you here in in Melbourne um there is um you know a large Chinese population um and know a large Chinese population um and know a large Chinese population um and one of the real polarization issues has one of the real polarization issues has one of the real polarization issues has been around politics in China um during been around politics in China um during been around politics in China um during the Hong Kong protests uh you know there the Hong Kong protests uh you know there the Hong Kong protests uh you know there was posters and you saw protests and was posters and you saw protests and was posters and you saw protests and different things happening now for a lot different things happening now for a lot different things happening now for a lot of that that was a dominant thing in the of that that was a dominant thing in the of that that was a dominant thing in the community where I live now that wasn't community where I live now that wasn't community where I live now that wasn't on my social media that much because I'm on my social media that much because I'm on my social media that much because I'm not on China's language social media uh not on China's language social media uh not on China's language social media uh but for people in this area you know but for people in this area you know but for people in this area you know that was a very very real uh issue and that was a very very real uh issue and that was a very very real uh issue and so sometimes what I find is that I meet so sometimes what I find is that I meet so sometimes what I find is that I meet people and even this is true of people people and even this is true of people people and even this is true of people in Australia or New Zealand you know who in Australia or New Zealand you know who in Australia or New Zealand you know who are very invested in what's happening in are very invested in what's happening in are very invested in what's happening in say American politics or you know who's say American politics or you know who's say American politics or you know who's the VP pick in the American election and the VP pick in the American election and the VP pick in the American election and sometimes social media disconnects us sometimes social media disconnects us sometimes social media disconnects us from the actual political realities on from the actual political realities on from the actual political realities on the ground where you are so just because the ground where you are so just because the ground where you are so just because social media has seemingly evaporated social media has seemingly evaporated social media has seemingly evaporated the distance between where you are uh uh the distance between where you are uh uh the distance between where you are uh uh still be very connected to your local still be very connected to your local still be very connected to your local community particularly if you're a community particularly if you're a community particularly if you're a pastor someone living pastor someone living pastor someone living be connected where you are I think it's be connected where you are I think it's be connected where you are I think it's going to be really hard to um I think going to be really hard to um I think going to be really hard to um I think just being careful of what to speak into just being careful of what to speak into just being careful of what to speak into and what to not speak into so what I

and what to not speak into so what I and what to not speak into so what I mean by that is you know there's mean by that is you know there's mean by that is you know there's definitely some issues which have a kind definitely some issues which have a kind definitely some issues which have a kind of national importance which you you you of national importance which you you you of national importance which you you you need to speak into um uh uh but need to speak into um uh uh but need to speak into um uh uh but increasingly the issues uh that are increasingly the issues uh that are increasingly the issues uh that are going to come across your path that's going to come across your path that's going to come across your path that's just going to come more and more and just going to come more and more and just going to come more and more and more and there's an element where um more and there's an element where um more and there's an element where um people can fall into a position of people can fall into a position of people can fall into a position of having to almost make policy statements having to almost make policy statements having to almost make policy statements on so many different things you know to on so many different things you know to on so many different things you know to the point where what's your policy the point where what's your policy the point where what's your policy statement as a church on you know who statement as a church on you know who statement as a church on you know who should be the you know elected leader in should be the you know elected leader in should be the you know elected leader in Venezuela you know what I mean like it Venezuela you know what I mean like it Venezuela you know what I mean like it gets to the point where uh you're not gets to the point where uh you're not gets to the point where uh you're not necessarily A C you know it's not like necessarily A C you know it's not like necessarily A C you know it's not like you're a and I think even even you're a and I think even even you're a and I think even even universities and local governments are universities and local governments are universities and local governments are struggling with this now of how what do struggling with this now of how what do struggling with this now of how what do you make a comment on something that may you make a comment on something that may you make a comment on something that may be on the other side of the world or an be on the other side of the world or an be on the other side of the world or an issue that you have literal control over issue that you have literal control over issue that you have literal control over so I think you know I don't have an so I think you know I don't have an so I think you know I don't have an answer I'm not saying then don't mention answer I'm not saying then don't mention answer I'm not saying then don't mention anything because there'll be things of anything because there'll be things of anything because there'll be things of national importance local importance uh national importance local importance uh national importance local importance uh Global and and often I just find praying Global and and often I just find praying Global and and often I just find praying for things is sometimes better than a for things is sometimes better than a for things is sometimes better than a statement if that makes sense praying statement if that makes sense praying statement if that makes sense praying into situations is is really really key into situations is is really really key into situations is is really really key the the third thing I I would I would the the third thing I I would I would the the third thing I I would I would say too is realize your limitations you say too is realize your limitations you say too is realize your limitations you know um again I just repeat you know I know um again I just repeat you know I know um again I just repeat you know I love um looking at this stuff I love love um looking at this stuff I love love um looking at this stuff I love understanding politics and culture it's understanding politics and culture it's understanding politics and culture it's it's really almost a hobby for me that I it's really almost a hobby for me that I it's really almost a hobby for me that I get to talk about um you don't have to get to talk about um you don't have to get to talk about um you don't have to understand everything like I do and

understand everything like I do and understand everything like I do and sometimes get people like Mark how do I sometimes get people like Mark how do I sometimes get people like Mark how do I understand like everything like you you understand like everything like you you understand like everything like you you don't have to you know you're a person don't have to you know you're a person don't have to you know you're a person who has finite time uh you have finite who has finite time uh you have finite who has finite time uh you have finite knowledge on these things uh don't be knowledge on these things uh don't be knowledge on these things uh don't be forced into a corner where you have to forced into a corner where you have to forced into a corner where you have to understand everything because the Big understand everything because the Big understand everything because the Big Flash let me I mean the issue that Flash let me I mean the issue that Flash let me I mean the issue that people are probably going to be talking people are probably going to be talking people are probably going to be talking about in two years possibly two months about in two years possibly two months about in two years possibly two months is not the issue they're talking about is not the issue they're talking about is not the issue they're talking about now we the the church has got caught in now we the the church has got caught in now we the the church has got caught in that 24-hour news cycle as well as the that 24-hour news cycle as well as the that 24-hour news cycle as well as the whole of society so I think whole of society so I think whole of society so I think understanding your limitations and even understanding your limitations and even understanding your limitations and even being honest with people around that um being honest with people around that um being honest with people around that um I think is is is really key going I think is is is really key going I think is is is really key going forward because let me tell you now I've forward because let me tell you now I've forward because let me tell you now I've spoken to politicians and they don't spoken to politicians and they don't spoken to politicians and they don't even understand all of these issues um even understand all of these issues um even understand all of these issues um uh let alone the local church pastor um uh let alone the local church pastor um uh let alone the local church pastor um so I think Free Yourself having to be so I think Free Yourself having to be so I think Free Yourself having to be Pastor SL political expert sociological Pastor SL political expert sociological Pastor SL political expert sociological expert on everything we need to be expert on everything we need to be expert on everything we need to be informed but that the amount of stuff informed but that the amount of stuff informed but that the amount of stuff that we have to get ah head around is so that we have to get ah head around is so that we have to get ah head around is so growing growing growing rapidly uh that I think it's becoming a rapidly uh that I think it's becoming a rapidly uh that I think it's becoming a burden for many people um and that's an burden for many people um and that's an burden for many people um and that's an expectation which is unfair uh on a lot expectation which is unfair uh on a lot expectation which is unfair uh on a lot of of of leaders I think that's a really good leaders I think that's a really good leaders I think that's a really good point mark and I wonder if we've seen point mark and I wonder if we've seen point mark and I wonder if we've seen the pendulum start to swing back in the the pendulum start to swing back in the the pendulum start to swing back in the other direction there was a period a few other direction there was a period a few other direction there was a period a few years ago where everybody needed a years ago where everybody needed a years ago where everybody needed a statement on everything and when an statement on everything and when an statement on everything and when an incident happened you had to post incident happened you had to post incident happened you had to post immediately on social media you had to immediately on social media you had to immediately on social media you had to make some kind of statement issue a make some kind of statement issue a make some kind of statement issue a press release and I've seen a few press release and I've seen a few press release and I've seen a few companies anyway now go you know what we

companies anyway now go you know what we companies anyway now go you know what we make pots and pans we're not issuing a make pots and pans we're not issuing a make pots and pans we're not issuing a statement on every event or we make statement on every event or we make statement on every event or we make clothing that's what we do we're not clothing that's what we do we're not clothing that's what we do we're not going to have a position on every public going to have a position on every public going to have a position on every public policy issue and I wonder if there's policy issue and I wonder if there's policy issue and I wonder if there's wisdom in church leaders and I love I wisdom in church leaders and I love I wisdom in church leaders and I love I don't want people to miss what you said don't want people to miss what you said don't want people to miss what you said when you said you can pray about it like when you said you can pray about it like when you said you can pray about it like you can pray about the election but that you can pray about the election but that you can pray about the election but that doesn't mean you have to comment on doesn't mean you have to comment on doesn't mean you have to comment on every aspect of the election knowing every aspect of the election knowing every aspect of the election knowing that hopefully you've got people from that hopefully you've got people from that hopefully you've got people from both sides of the aisle in your aisles both sides of the aisle in your aisles both sides of the aisle in your aisles that you've got people from both sides that you've got people from both sides that you've got people from both sides of the spectrum within your community of the spectrum within your community of the spectrum within your community it's or all sides of the spectrum from it's or all sides of the spectrum from it's or all sides of the spectrum from within your community any thoughts on within your community any thoughts on within your community any thoughts on that is it is are we starting to get a that is it is are we starting to get a that is it is are we starting to get a little more like hey maybe we don't have little more like hey maybe we don't have little more like hey maybe we don't have to say something on everything or uh did to say something on everything or uh did to say something on everything or uh did I miss something in that no no I think I miss something in that no no I think I miss something in that no no I think you're right we're seeing that in you're right we're seeing that in you're right we're seeing that in companies that increasingly companies companies that increasingly companies companies that increasingly companies finding that you know it's really finding that you know it's really finding that you know it's really difficult and um you know as I said difficult and um you know as I said difficult and um you know as I said you're never they going to be miss you're never they going to be miss you're never they going to be miss something the example of Sudan I just something the example of Sudan I just something the example of Sudan I just gave you I've not heard a church making gave you I've not heard a church making gave you I've not heard a church making statement of Sudan I've heard some statement of Sudan I've heard some statement of Sudan I've heard some church you know so the Palestine Sudan church you know so the Palestine Sudan church you know so the Palestine Sudan situation is really interesting there's situation is really interesting there's situation is really interesting there's a lot of um you know uh focus on on Gaza a lot of um you know uh focus on on Gaza a lot of um you know uh focus on on Gaza and and Palestine and Israel uh very and and Palestine and Israel uh very and and Palestine and Israel uh very similar situation happen in Sudan similar situation happen in Sudan similar situation happen in Sudan virtually no cometary um so you know virtually no cometary um so you know virtually no cometary um so you know there's an element that you're going to there's an element that you're going to there's an element that you're going to miss something eventually um so also I miss something eventually um so also I miss something eventually um so also I don't want people to hear me saying don't want people to hear me saying don't want people to hear me saying let's be apolitical you know I I saw a let's be apolitical you know I I saw a let's be apolitical you know I I saw a church in a country that's not yours not church in a country that's not yours not church in a country that's not yours not mine um where there's been a real mine um where there's been a real mine um where there's been a real national issue and I just saw on national issue and I just saw on national issue and I just saw on Instagram last night that they're going Instagram last night that they're going Instagram last night that they're going to call a prayer meeting around that I

to call a prayer meeting around that I to call a prayer meeting around that I thought brilliant you need to talk into thought brilliant you need to talk into thought brilliant you need to talk into that that is a national issue that is that that is a national issue that is that that is a national issue that is contentious but you need to be praying contentious but you need to be praying contentious but you need to be praying into that B Nation brilliant um but I into that B Nation brilliant um but I into that B Nation brilliant um but I think having to comment on every single think having to comment on every single think having to comment on every single thing you know it becomes different even thing you know it becomes different even thing you know it becomes different even politicians are pulling back from that a politicians are pulling back from that a politicians are pulling back from that a bit because you know um yeah it just bit because you know um yeah it just bit because you know um yeah it just puts yourself in a possible position um puts yourself in a possible position um puts yourself in a possible position um at at times I think I think one other at at times I think I think one other at at times I think I think one other thing I would say as well thing I would say as well thing I would say as well um I think we we need to understand that um I think we we need to understand that um I think we we need to understand that you can do this incredibly well and you can do this incredibly well and you can do this incredibly well and you're still going to get a you're still going to get a you're still going to get a backlash you know um you know I just say backlash you know um you know I just say backlash you know um you know I just say this Rebuilders um uh you know we really this Rebuilders um uh you know we really this Rebuilders um uh you know we really tried to go macro on things and we still tried to go macro on things and we still tried to go macro on things and we still get backlashes and we've had people have get backlashes and we've had people have get backlashes and we've had people have have goes at us and stuff like this um have goes at us and stuff like this um have goes at us and stuff like this um you know I person L and speaking through you know I person L and speaking through you know I person L and speaking through things Nuance you know with Nuance things Nuance you know with Nuance things Nuance you know with Nuance praying about things I've still had praying about things I've still had praying about things I've still had people um come up and rip shreds off me people um come up and rip shreds off me people um come up and rip shreds off me and um I think part of there is almost and um I think part of there is almost and um I think part of there is almost like a mentality particularly for like a mentality particularly for like a mentality particularly for younger leaders who perhaps came of age younger leaders who perhaps came of age younger leaders who perhaps came of age in that period where politics in that period where politics in that period where politics disappeared and you know you could disappeared and you know you could disappeared and you know you could almost take that all all the way up to almost take that all all the way up to almost take that all all the way up to 2016 um that uh well I can just do this 2016 um that uh well I can just do this 2016 um that uh well I can just do this in the right way and do these five in the right way and do these five in the right way and do these five things and I'm not going to experience things and I'm not going to experience things and I'm not going to experience this you I think there's a reality that this you I think there's a reality that this you I think there's a reality that part of what we're called to do as part of what we're called to do as part of what we're called to do as Leaders is that uh Jesus very clearly Leaders is that uh Jesus very clearly Leaders is that uh Jesus very clearly said you have people against you and said you have people against you and said you have people against you and it's unpopular and I think you know that it's unpopular and I think you know that it's unpopular and I think you know that that's almost something we need to just that's almost something we need to just that's almost something we need to just outline as part of leadership leadership

outline as part of leadership leadership outline as part of leadership leadership is really tough at times and I think is really tough at times and I think is really tough at times and I think we've done a disservice to many leaders we've done a disservice to many leaders we've done a disservice to many leaders saying no it's not you can do these saying no it's not you can do these saying no it's not you can do these seven things and you're going to be seven things and you're going to be seven things and you're going to be really popular it's simply not so I really popular it's simply not so I really popular it's simply not so I think uh there is a way where this is think uh there is a way where this is think uh there is a way where this is just part of something and and when that just part of something and and when that just part of something and and when that happens like you know I had situation happens like you know I had situation happens like you know I had situation which was just really tough around this which was just really tough around this which was just really tough around this and I remember afterwards just like Lord and I remember afterwards just like Lord and I remember afterwards just like Lord and it came at the worst moment like I and it came at the worst moment like I and it came at the worst moment like I was I was at a low moment and with a was I was at a low moment and with a was I was at a low moment and with a bunch of other stuff going on and you bunch of other stuff going on and you bunch of other stuff going on and you know I I just thought okay God I I'm not know I I just thought okay God I I'm not know I I just thought okay God I I'm not going to get bit here I'm not going to going to get bit here I'm not going to going to get bit here I'm not going to get scared how does this push me back to get scared how does this push me back to get scared how does this push me back to you and and I think those feeling dread you and and I think those feeling dread you and and I think those feeling dread looking forward to upcoming looking forward to upcoming looking forward to upcoming elections uh and going okay instead of elections uh and going okay instead of elections uh and going okay instead of like going we do need to be wise and like going we do need to be wise and like going we do need to be wise and there's things we can do and hopefully there's things we can do and hopefully there's things we can do and hopefully there's wisdom in in what we' presented there's wisdom in in what we' presented there's wisdom in in what we' presented here today and what you're presenting in here today and what you're presenting in here today and what you're presenting in some of this series there's a point some of this series there's a point some of this series there's a point where we're not good enough to dodge the where we're not good enough to dodge the where we're not good enough to dodge the political bullets on all this stuff and political bullets on all this stuff and political bullets on all this stuff and not be controversial and you can say not be controversial and you can say not be controversial and you can say this Nuance thing on this I've done this this Nuance thing on this I've done this this Nuance thing on this I've done this I've literally said this most nuanced I've literally said this most nuanced I've literally said this most nuanced thing that I prepare for days and thing that I prepare for days and thing that I prepare for days and someone will come up with a conspiracy someone will come up with a conspiracy someone will come up with a conspiracy theory or it's it's two right two left theory or it's it's two right two left theory or it's it's two right two left whatever um uh and that draws me back to whatever um uh and that draws me back to whatever um uh and that draws me back to God so like if you're anxious about this God so like if you're anxious about this God so like if you're anxious about this season what if God is allowing some of season what if God is allowing some of season what if God is allowing some of this fractiousness to this fractiousness to this fractiousness to continue to push the church back into a continue to push the church back into a continue to push the church back into a dependency on him not into techniques dependency on him not into techniques dependency on him not into techniques and procedures that will protect us from and procedures that will protect us from and procedures that will protect us from [Music] [Music] [Music] Pain well let that sink in for a moment

Pain well let that sink in for a moment Pain well let that sink in for a moment I think that's really good advice it I think that's really good advice it I think that's really good advice it doesn't always protect us from Pain and doesn't always protect us from Pain and doesn't always protect us from Pain and there's part of me that that really there's part of me that that really there's part of me that that really misses that little Golden Era where we misses that little Golden Era where we misses that little Golden Era where we all got a free pass for a few minutes all got a free pass for a few minutes all got a free pass for a few minutes and we're not there and we're not there and we're not there anymore um anymore um anymore um I'm going to ask you a hypothetical I'm going to ask you a hypothetical I'm going to ask you a hypothetical question and I could say you know do question and I could say you know do question and I could say you know do this for Australia but Australia isn't this for Australia but Australia isn't this for Australia but Australia isn't nearly as contentious as the United nearly as contentious as the United nearly as contentious as the United States is right now nor is Canada any States is right now nor is Canada any States is right now nor is Canada any thoughts on whether it's wise to preach thoughts on whether it's wise to preach thoughts on whether it's wise to preach a series around the election I'm not a series around the election I'm not a series around the election I'm not talking about hey we're endorsing so and talking about hey we're endorsing so and talking about hey we're endorsing so and so not so and so I'm not talking that so not so and so I'm not talking that so not so and so I'm not talking that but like to what extent would you speak but like to what extent would you speak but like to what extent would you speak into that Beyond prayer where is the into that Beyond prayer where is the into that Beyond prayer where is the wisdom in that knowing that you know wisdom in that knowing that you know wisdom in that knowing that you know what you just shared you're probably what you just shared you're probably what you just shared you're probably going to get in trouble anyway if you going to get in trouble anyway if you going to get in trouble anyway if you don't speak about it people are going to don't speak about it people are going to don't speak about it people are going to be why aren't you you know if you do be why aren't you you know if you do be why aren't you you know if you do speak about it you didn't do it this way speak about it you didn't do it this way speak about it you didn't do it this way or that way what's your wisdom on or that way what's your wisdom on or that way what's your wisdom on speaking into the issues right now as speaking into the issues right now as speaking into the issues right now as people head into the people head into the people head into the fall well the first thing again I I fall well the first thing again I I fall well the first thing again I I would fully go into prayerful would fully go into prayerful would fully go into prayerful discernment number one like Lord what discernment number one like Lord what discernment number one like Lord what are you what are you asking us to do are you what are you asking us to do are you what are you asking us to do here um the second thing I'd ask context here um the second thing I'd ask context here um the second thing I'd ask context like I think it's true the US is facing like I think it's true the US is facing like I think it's true the US is facing a contentious election um what's your a contentious election um what's your a contentious election um what's your context you know I've got friends who context you know I've got friends who context you know I've got friends who are in completely Republican states I've are in completely Republican states I've are in completely Republican states I've got friends who are in completely got friends who are in completely got friends who are in completely Democrat states or cities or whatever Democrat states or cities or whatever Democrat states or cities or whatever and others who have absolute fault lines and others who have absolute fault lines and others who have absolute fault lines who've gone through tremendous who've gone through tremendous who've gone through tremendous polarization division people leaving polarization division people leaving polarization division people leaving over the last little while so first of over the last little while so first of over the last little while so first of all what's your um you know what's your all what's your um you know what's your all what's your um you know what's your context secondly what's what's the

context secondly what's what's the context secondly what's what's the context of your leadership you know uh context of your leadership you know uh context of your leadership you know uh you may be just a pastor with maybe one you may be just a pastor with maybe one you may be just a pastor with maybe one person on administr or you could have a person on administr or you could have a person on administr or you could have a whole team you know what you'd almost whole team you know what you'd almost whole team you know what you'd almost need everyone on board if you can do need everyone on board if you can do need everyone on board if you can do something like this um but you know something like this um but you know something like this um but you know talking to you know American Pastor um talking to you know American Pastor um talking to you know American Pastor um just a couple weeks ago and you know just a couple weeks ago and you know just a couple weeks ago and you know he's going to do a series but he's going he's going to do a series but he's going he's going to do a series but he's going to come at it very biblically because to come at it very biblically because to come at it very biblically because you know there were resources books like you know there were resources books like you know there were resources books like the Book of Revelation you know studying the Book of Revelation you know studying the Book of Revelation you know studying books like which you know sounds like books like which you know sounds like books like which you know sounds like people like oh my goodness you do people like oh my goodness you do people like oh my goodness you do Revelation during a um an election Revelation during a um an election Revelation during a um an election series but there is many things in in series but there is many things in in series but there is many things in in the scriptures where I think you know the scriptures where I think you know the scriptures where I think you know Paul and and you know the riters of the Paul and and you know the riters of the Paul and and you know the riters of the New Testament are struggling with is New Testament are struggling with is New Testament are struggling with is they were in a very political they were in a very political they were in a very political environment with a Roman Empire um and I environment with a Roman Empire um and I environment with a Roman Empire um and I think there is resources in scripture uh think there is resources in scripture uh think there is resources in scripture uh so I would come at it very biblically as so I would come at it very biblically as so I would come at it very biblically as well you almost have to get people out well you almost have to get people out well you almost have to get people out of don't come at almost front this is my of don't come at almost front this is my of don't come at almost front this is my if I was going to do it don't come at if I was going to do it don't come at if I was going to do it don't come at frontally like we're gonna got these frontally like we're gonna got these frontally like we're gonna got these issues go in the first century this is issues go in the first century this is issues go in the first century this is what they're facing and this is what what they're facing and this is what what they're facing and this is what they learned this perhaps relates to us they learned this perhaps relates to us they learned this perhaps relates to us today um so I think at the end of the today um so I think at the end of the today um so I think at the end of the day bringing people back to the word to day bringing people back to the word to day bringing people back to the word to scriptures to understanding how people scriptures to understanding how people scriptures to understanding how people throughout history have approached these throughout history have approached these throughout history have approached these things to realize that you know there's things to realize that you know there's things to realize that you know there's we're not the only ones who've gone we're not the only ones who've gone we're not the only ones who've gone through this people of God have faced through this people of God have faced through this people of God have faced these things before and often even more these things before and often even more these things before and often even more intense things before um you know I intense things before um you know I intense things before um you know I would I would talk to people outside of would I would talk to people outside of would I would talk to people outside of your own context you know interview your own context you know interview your own context you know interview someone on video you know I I was someone on video you know I I was someone on video you know I I was watching a video of some Christians in watching a video of some Christians in watching a video of some Christians in Lebanon who were doing some prayer Lebanon who were doing some prayer Lebanon who were doing some prayer initiatives and what Lebanon has gone

initiatives and what Lebanon has gone initiatives and what Lebanon has gone through oh my goodness you know when you through oh my goodness you know when you through oh my goodness you know when you think of polarization Civil War um the think of polarization Civil War um the think of polarization Civil War um the bayro you know Port blast you start bayro you know Port blast you start bayro you know Port blast you start listening that go what am I oh goodness listening that go what am I oh goodness listening that go what am I oh goodness what am I worrying about you know in what am I worrying about you know in what am I worrying about you know in comparison to what they going through comparison to what they going through comparison to what they going through and people still live their lives you and people still live their lives you and people still live their lives you know like in a sense but you lebanon's know like in a sense but you lebanon's know like in a sense but you lebanon's gone through the utter nightmare that gone through the utter nightmare that gone through the utter nightmare that many of his fear could happen and people many of his fear could happen and people many of his fear could happen and people still go to the supermarket and people still go to the supermarket and people still go to the supermarket and people meet in church and and just hearing meet in church and and just hearing meet in church and and just hearing those stories outside of your context those stories outside of your context those stories outside of your context and perhaps people in other context of and perhaps people in other context of and perhaps people in other context of things politically could be helpful as things politically could be helpful as things politically could be helpful as well um so I think it could be a wise well um so I think it could be a wise well um so I think it could be a wise thing but you really want to pray about thing but you really want to pray about thing but you really want to pray about it think through it discern it and make it think through it discern it and make it think through it discern it and make it it it biblical I think there are some pastors biblical I think there are some pastors biblical I think there are some pastors who are afraid of their congregation who are afraid of their congregation who are afraid of their congregation they remember what happened in 2020 they remember what happened in 2020 they remember what happened in 2020 2016 they've tried whatever they got 2016 they've tried whatever they got 2016 they've tried whatever they got bitten they really prayed about it they bitten they really prayed about it they bitten they really prayed about it they were as nuanced as they could be what were as nuanced as they could be what were as nuanced as they could be what advice do you have and you've certainly advice do you have and you've certainly advice do you have and you've certainly taken your share of criticism both taken your share of criticism both taken your share of criticism both outside and inside your church what outside and inside your church what outside and inside your church what advice do you have for pastors who might advice do you have for pastors who might advice do you have for pastors who might feel afraid of their congregation or the feel afraid of their congregation or the feel afraid of their congregation or the reaction of their reaction of their reaction of their congregation well Fe fear you know and I congregation well Fe fear you know and I congregation well Fe fear you know and I I not say this as as you explain I've I not say this as as you explain I've I not say this as as you explain I've lived this um fear is a f a lived this um fear is a f a lived this um fear is a f a fantastic field for the enemy to plant fantastic field for the enemy to plant fantastic field for the enemy to plant seeds and um you know fear has a seeds and um you know fear has a seeds and um you know fear has a corrosive effect on leadership um people corrosive effect on leadership um people corrosive effect on leadership um people are um drawn to leaders who have

are um drawn to leaders who have are um drawn to leaders who have confidence and boldness and go forward confidence and boldness and go forward confidence and boldness and go forward with courage we follow those who are with courage we follow those who are with courage we follow those who are brave um but also there can be full brave um but also there can be full brave um but also there can be full hardiness as well and and brave without hardiness as well and and brave without hardiness as well and and brave without wisdom and discern um I think we have to wisdom and discern um I think we have to wisdom and discern um I think we have to say goodbye to the myth that did develop say goodbye to the myth that did develop say goodbye to the myth that did develop in the church during that golden period in the church during that golden period in the church during that golden period that if we just do some focus groups and that if we just do some focus groups and that if we just do some focus groups and you know again have nice lighting have you know again have nice lighting have you know again have nice lighting have nice seats and car parking that we can nice seats and car parking that we can nice seats and car parking that we can get a large group in a room and that's get a large group in a room and that's get a large group in a room and that's the goal um at the end of the day um I the goal um at the end of the day um I the goal um at the end of the day um I think we are living in more fractious think we are living in more fractious think we are living in more fractious times and there's going to be people who times and there's going to be people who times and there's going to be people who leave and get offended no matter what leave and get offended no matter what leave and get offended no matter what you do that's what I realized and also you do that's what I realized and also you do that's what I realized and also I've had the other experience where you I've had the other experience where you I've had the other experience where you so prepare for something and you Nuance so prepare for something and you Nuance so prepare for something and you Nuance it and then person a over here reacts to it and then person a over here reacts to it and then person a over here reacts to something completely different and something completely different and something completely different and ridiculous and I could never have ridiculous and I could never have ridiculous and I could never have thought of that this what how did this thought of that this what how did this thought of that this what how did this happen um so you know I I do think that happen um so you know I I do think that happen um so you know I I do think that at the end of the day we have to realize at the end of the day we have to realize at the end of the day we have to realize that we've been called to to preach that we've been called to to preach that we've been called to to preach God's word um to to partner with God as God's word um to to partner with God as God's word um to to partner with God as his kingdom advances in the world to his kingdom advances in the world to his kingdom advances in the world to bring people to Jesus and we're not bring people to Jesus and we're not bring people to Jesus and we're not going to do that just pleasing everyone going to do that just pleasing everyone going to do that just pleasing everyone um we're just going to create a sort of um we're just going to create a sort of um we're just going to create a sort of you know I don't know anadon beige you know I don't know anadon beige you know I don't know anadon beige Christianity that the world is not Christianity that the world is not Christianity that the world is not looking for you know um can I just looking for you know um can I just looking for you know um can I just really interesting stat um that came out really interesting stat um that came out really interesting stat um that came out of Australia and I don't think America of Australia and I don't think America of Australia and I don't think America is here at all if you're hearing this is here at all if you're hearing this is here at all if you're hearing this but I just found this fascinating that but I just found this fascinating that but I just found this fascinating that um recently we were told that um in um recently we were told that um in um recently we were told that um in Australian's trust in institutions had

Australian's trust in institutions had Australian's trust in institutions had plummeted but to our complete shock one plummeted but to our complete shock one plummeted but to our complete shock one institution that had grown up was the institution that had grown up was the institution that had grown up was the church because people are becoming so um church because people are becoming so um church because people are becoming so um disillusioned with all the institutions disillusioned with all the institutions disillusioned with all the institutions of society they're like I know Church of society they're like I know Church of society they're like I know Church gues you're a bit strange but you know gues you're a bit strange but you know gues you're a bit strange but you know we're going to give you a try because we're going to give you a try because we're going to give you a try because everything else is falling over people everything else is falling over people everything else is falling over people need to hear there is more of those need to hear there is more of those need to hear there is more of those people than people realize out there you people than people realize out there you people than people realize out there you know um you know there is something know um you know there is something know um you know there is something happening it's happening in Australia happening it's happening in Australia happening it's happening in Australia it's happening init it's happening in it's happening init it's happening in it's happening init it's happening in Europe I think it's going to start Europe I think it's going to start Europe I think it's going to start happening in the US more where people happening in the US more where people happening in the US more where people are just going you know I was I don't are just going you know I was I don't are just going you know I was I don't know what to believe anymore like I I know what to believe anymore like I I know what to believe anymore like I I there is a uh there is a uh there is a uh you know there was a chat a chat talk a you know there was a chat a chat talk a you know there was a chat a chat talk a lot of talk about deconstruction in the lot of talk about deconstruction in the lot of talk about deconstruction in the church what a lot of people don't church what a lot of people don't church what a lot of people don't realize is there's deconstruction realize is there's deconstruction realize is there's deconstruction happening at the society secularism happening at the society secularism happening at the society secularism needs Society to operate in a particular needs Society to operate in a particular needs Society to operate in a particular way to promise US the ability to live way to promise US the ability to live way to promise US the ability to live without God there are many people without God there are many people without God there are many people outside of the church deconstructive outside of the church deconstructive outside of the church deconstructive soci deconstructing Society so yes soci deconstructing Society so yes soci deconstructing Society so yes people are going to be annoyed by some people are going to be annoyed by some people are going to be annoyed by some things you may say in church but there's things you may say in church but there's things you may say in church but there's probably going to be another group of probably going to be another group of probably going to be another group of people who Rock up and want to hear the people who Rock up and want to hear the people who Rock up and want to hear the message of Jesus and there's an message of Jesus and there's an message of Jesus and there's an Evangelistic opening happening at this Evangelistic opening happening at this Evangelistic opening happening at this moment that we also need to be aware of moment that we also need to be aware of moment that we also need to be aware of as well um so you may lose some culture as well um so you may lose some culture as well um so you may lose some culture of Christians and pick up some brilliant of Christians and pick up some brilliant of Christians and pick up some brilliant conits that leads me into what I think conits that leads me into what I think conits that leads me into what I think is my final question for you mark which is my final question for you mark which is my final question for you mark which is what opportunities does this present is what opportunities does this present is what opportunities does this present for the church I mean as fractious and for the church I mean as fractious and for the church I mean as fractious and difficult as it is as nuanced as it is difficult as it is as nuanced as it is difficult as it is as nuanced as it is and everything we talked about for the and everything we talked about for the and everything we talked about for the last hour There's an opportunity here

last hour There's an opportunity here last hour There's an opportunity here what is what is what is it so two two things so number one you it so two two things so number one you it so two two things so number one you know I really have been studying the 30s know I really have been studying the 30s know I really have been studying the 30s and the 1970s as parallel moments and and the 1970s as parallel moments and and the 1970s as parallel moments and after the war um and then in the after the war um and then in the after the war um and then in the beginning of the 1980s there was just beginning of the 1980s there was just beginning of the 1980s there was just this sense that people seemed to get this sense that people seemed to get this sense that people seemed to get exhausted by the exhausted by the exhausted by the polarization and they were just done polarization and they were just done polarization and they were just done they couldn't do it anymore particularly they couldn't do it anymore particularly they couldn't do it anymore particularly in the early 80s so there is a natural in the early 80s so there is a natural in the early 80s so there is a natural end to some of this stuff I just wanted end to some of this stuff I just wanted end to some of this stuff I just wanted to say that and there's a point we're to say that and there's a point we're to say that and there's a point we're I'm done let's start to build we're at a I'm done let's start to build we're at a I'm done let's start to build we're at a time of tearing down but a time of time of tearing down but a time of time of tearing down but a time of building building comes after and so I building building comes after and so I building building comes after and so I think people need to prepare for what think people need to prepare for what think people need to prepare for what comes out out of this yes you need to comes out out of this yes you need to comes out out of this yes you need to weather this storm but there will be a weather this storm but there will be a weather this storm but there will be a time of social building after this uh time of social building after this uh time of social building after this uh secondly so much of this is driven secondly so much of this is driven secondly so much of this is driven tribalization is driven by the death of tribalization is driven by the death of tribalization is driven by the death of community and connection in the west community and connection in the west community and connection in the west we're going to see increasingly people we're going to see increasingly people we're going to see increasingly people looking for community and connection and looking for community and connection and looking for community and connection and we are brilliant at doing that the we are brilliant at doing that the we are brilliant at doing that the church is great at doing community and church is great at doing community and church is great at doing community and you may not feel that but you know you may not feel that but you know you may not feel that but you know there's so many people have have no one there's so many people have have no one there's so many people have have no one to talk to the you just go to a small to talk to the you just go to a small to talk to the you just go to a small group every week or whatever you call group every week or whatever you call group every week or whatever you call them growth group Bible study um that's them growth group Bible study um that's them growth group Bible study um that's going to become incredibly attractive to going to become incredibly attractive to going to become incredibly attractive to a lot of people to be in community so be a lot of people to be in community so be a lot of people to be in community so be aware of that and and and thirdly I I I aware of that and and and thirdly I I I aware of that and and and thirdly I I I really do believe that there's a really do believe that there's a really do believe that there's a growing uh amount of of people Nick Cave growing uh amount of of people Nick Cave growing uh amount of of people Nick Cave you know was a musician I grew up from you know was a musician I grew up from you know was a musician I grew up from Melbourne the Post Punk artist I

Melbourne the Post Punk artist I Melbourne the Post Punk artist I remember watching him he come you know remember watching him he come you know remember watching him he come you know as a young guy his in the Bad Seeds is as a young guy his in the Bad Seeds is as a young guy his in the Bad Seeds is that is what talking about yeah you're that is what talking about yeah you're that is what talking about yeah you're kidding wow you know he would come on kidding wow you know he would come on kidding wow you know he would come on and he had this this song I remember and he had this this song I remember and he had this this song I remember looking as a kid I just sort of was looking as a kid I just sort of was looking as a kid I just sort of was getting serious about my faith and it getting serious about my faith and it getting serious about my faith and it seemed so dark and it had no shirt on he seemed so dark and it had no shirt on he seemed so dark and it had no shirt on he was on Herald and it was like you know was on Herald and it was like you know was on Herald and it was like you know the absolute opposite to something which the absolute opposite to something which the absolute opposite to something which felt felt felt holy you know after the death of his son holy you know after the death of his son holy you know after the death of his son you know he is sort of you know inching you know he is sort of you know inching you know he is sort of you know inching towards the church turning up in church towards the church turning up in church towards the church turning up in church there's something here uh you're seeing there's something here uh you're seeing there's something here uh you're seeing many intellectuals starting to just many intellectuals starting to just many intellectuals starting to just pivot towards church you know Dawkin is pivot towards church you know Dawkin is pivot towards church you know Dawkin is not got faith he's talking about being a not got faith he's talking about being a not got faith he's talking about being a cultural Christian you know this is cultural Christian you know this is cultural Christian you know this is really really really unexpected um I think the more sorry I unexpected um I think the more sorry I unexpected um I think the more sorry I missed that darkins is talking about missed that darkins is talking about missed that darkins is talking about what yeah D Dawkins is you know sort of what yeah D Dawkins is you know sort of what yeah D Dawkins is you know sort of been described himself as a cultural been described himself as a cultural been described himself as a cultural Christian he's saying maybe there is Christian he's saying maybe there is Christian he's saying maybe there is utility to some of these things you know utility to some of these things you know utility to some of these things you know um you know you're hearing uh people um you know you're hearing uh people um you know you're hearing uh people begin to talk like this and this has begin to talk like this and this has begin to talk like this and this has been happening a lot particularly in been happening a lot particularly in been happening a lot particularly in Britain uh there's been people having it Britain uh there's been people having it Britain uh there's been people having it but we're seeing on the streets of but we're seeing on the streets of but we're seeing on the streets of people who when no one's listening people who when no one's listening people who when no one's listening start to want to talk to you about faith start to want to talk to you about faith start to want to talk to you about faith because they got serious questions there because they got serious questions there because they got serious questions there more people that do psychedelic drugs more people that do psychedelic drugs more people that do psychedelic drugs there more people that push into crazy there more people that push into crazy there more people that push into crazy stuff that has some super negative stuff stuff that has some super negative stuff stuff that has some super negative stuff and I don't want people doing that stuff and I don't want people doing that stuff and I don't want people doing that stuff but it also means that people start to but it also means that people start to but it also means that people start to become spiritually open you know in the become spiritually open you know in the become spiritually open you know in the tumult of the 60s and a when a lot of tumult of the 60s and a when a lot of tumult of the 60s and a when a lot of that stuff happened there was also the that stuff happened there was also the that stuff happened there was also the Jesus people uh movement that began and Jesus people uh movement that began and Jesus people uh movement that began and I think we're going to start to see I think we're going to start to see I think we're going to start to see stuff like that one of my great sayings

stuff like that one of my great sayings stuff like that one of my great sayings is you know crisis proceeds renewal um is you know crisis proceeds renewal um is you know crisis proceeds renewal um so the more things that go into crisis so the more things that go into crisis so the more things that go into crisis the less people look to the idols and the less people look to the idols and the less people look to the idols and ideologies of the world and I think was ideologies of the world and I think was ideologies of the world and I think was George Hunter said you know look if you George Hunter said you know look if you George Hunter said you know look if you want to look for an Evangelistic opening want to look for an Evangelistic opening want to look for an Evangelistic opening look for the gap between Idols When look for the gap between Idols When look for the gap between Idols When people's belief in one Idol fails and people's belief in one Idol fails and people's belief in one Idol fails and before they've jumped on to the next one before they've jumped on to the next one before they've jumped on to the next one there's this moment of openness and I there's this moment of openness and I there's this moment of openness and I think that's that's happening now so you think that's that's happening now so you think that's that's happening now so you know be aware of the opportunities of know be aware of the opportunities of know be aware of the opportunities of this moment it's it's more chaotic it's this moment it's it's more chaotic it's this moment it's it's more chaotic it's often more painful but there's serious often more painful but there's serious often more painful but there's serious opportunities I mean the other way I opportunities I mean the other way I opportunities I mean the other way I just picture it I think that golden just picture it I think that golden just picture it I think that golden period was also a rubbish period because period was also a rubbish period because period was also a rubbish period because I got sick of trying to lead people who I got sick of trying to lead people who I got sick of trying to lead people who just wanted just wanted just wanted comfort and you know I think now we have comfort and you know I think now we have comfort and you know I think now we have an honest real you know I just you have an honest real you know I just you have an honest real you know I just you have seen this year traveling around my seen this year traveling around my seen this year traveling around my nation a growing hunger for God for nation a growing hunger for God for nation a growing hunger for God for people who are just like man things are people who are just like man things are people who are just like man things are bad we got to press into God so that's bad we got to press into God so that's bad we got to press into God so that's an opportunity we need to be aware of an opportunity we need to be aware of an opportunity we need to be aware of and in a sense just turn down the volume and in a sense just turn down the volume and in a sense just turn down the volume on some of the the social noise and you on some of the the social noise and you on some of the the social noise and you know what's the signal in the midst of know what's the signal in the midst of know what's the signal in the midst of all of that that actually there's an all of that that actually there's an all of that that actually there's an openness to God people need God the openness to God people need God the openness to God people need God the church is built for moments like this church is built for moments like this church is built for moments like this let's take advantage of the let's take advantage of the let's take advantage of the opportunities Mark every time we talk I opportunities Mark every time we talk I opportunities Mark every time we talk I feel like I'm seeing the present more feel like I'm seeing the present more feel like I'm seeing the present more clearly and I'm getting insight into the clearly and I'm getting insight into the clearly and I'm getting insight into the future and this has been so so helpful future and this has been so so helpful future and this has been so so helpful you do a lot you've written numerous you do a lot you've written numerous you do a lot you've written numerous books uh you have a great podcast in books uh you have a great podcast in books uh you have a great podcast in Rebuilders you preach on a weekly basis Rebuilders you preach on a weekly basis Rebuilders you preach on a weekly basis at your church if there was a place you

at your church if there was a place you at your church if there was a place you would direct people to to learn more would direct people to to learn more would direct people to to learn more where would you send them yeah you can where would you send them yeah you can where would you send them yeah you can go to my um website Mar go to my um website Mar go to my um website Mar s.co um and you can check out different s.co um and you can check out different s.co um and you can check out different Social Media stuff there yeah check out Social Media stuff there yeah check out Social Media stuff there yeah check out Rebuilders got a new book coming out in Rebuilders got a new book coming out in Rebuilders got a new book coming out in 2025 called platforms to pillars um 2025 called platforms to pillars um 2025 called platforms to pillars um that's some great places to that's some great places to that's some great places to start well this won't be our last start well this won't be our last start well this won't be our last conversation Mark thanks for being part conversation Mark thanks for being part conversation Mark thanks for being part of our series and thank you for all you of our series and thank you for all you of our series and thank you for all you do you really help me find Clarity and do you really help me find Clarity and do you really help me find Clarity and make me think about things that honestly make me think about things that honestly make me think about things that honestly I never would think about without you so I never would think about without you so I never would think about without you so thank you for that gift thank you for that gift thank you for that gift oh thank you so much always love these oh thank you so much always love these oh thank you so much always love these chats