Is Your Marriage Difficult or Destructive? When God Releases You From Marriage with Lysa TerKeurst

For someone to stand before me For someone to stand before me and say, and say, and say, "Yeah, Lisa, but did he hit you?" "Yeah, Lisa, but did he hit you?" "Yeah, Lisa, but did he hit you?" You know, it it kind of You know, it it kind of You know, it it kind of made me go, "Well, do you want to see my made me go, "Well, do you want to see my made me go, "Well, do you want to see my scar where I'm cut hit to hip and all scar where I'm cut hit to hip and all scar where I'm cut hit to hip and all the way up my middle? Like, is that good the way up my middle? Like, is that good the way up my middle? Like, is that good enough for you?" enough for you?" enough for you?" >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Today, we're talking about Podcast. Today, we're talking about Podcast. Today, we're talking about marriage. So, when I was a pastor, it marriage. So, when I was a pastor, it marriage. So, when I was a pastor, it was always difficult for me to talk was always difficult for me to talk was always difficult for me to talk about divorce sensitively with people about divorce sensitively with people about divorce sensitively with people who going through one, right? Cuz the who going through one, right? Cuz the who going through one, right? Cuz the Bible has teachings on it. Well, we do a Bible has teachings on it. Well, we do a Bible has teachings on it. Well, we do a deep dive with Lisa Turkeurst and we deep dive with Lisa Turkeurst and we deep dive with Lisa Turkeurst and we talk about whether your marriage is talk about whether your marriage is talk about whether your marriage is difficult or destructive, what is the difficult or destructive, what is the difficult or destructive, what is the difference, when does God release you difference, when does God release you difference, when does God release you from marriage? Well, Lisa Turkeurst and from marriage? Well, Lisa Turkeurst and from marriage? Well, Lisa Turkeurst and I are going to talk about all those I are going to talk about all those I are going to talk about all those things. And wherever you're watching things. And wherever you're watching things. And wherever you're watching this, make sure you subscribe, you this, make sure you subscribe, you this, make sure you subscribe, you follow, and leave a comment to join the follow, and leave a comment to join the follow, and leave a comment to join the conversation. Now, let's dive into the conversation. Now, let's dive into the conversation. Now, let's dive into the interview. Lisa, it's so good to be interview. Lisa, it's so good to be interview. Lisa, it's so good to be together again. Welcome back. Thank you together again. Welcome back. Thank you together again. Welcome back. Thank you so much, Carey. It's always an honor to so much, Carey. It's always an honor to so much, Carey. It's always an honor to be with you. Well, likewise, and I mean, be with you. Well, likewise, and I mean, be with you. Well, likewise, and I mean, so much has gone on over the last few so much has gone on over the last few so much has gone on over the last few years and years and years and you know, you've recently in your latest you know, you've recently in your latest you know, you've recently in your latest book opened up about the divorce that book opened up about the divorce that book opened up about the divorce that you have gone through over the last few you have gone through over the last few you have gone through over the last few years. Um years. Um years. Um why did you decide to write on it?

why did you decide to write on it? why did you decide to write on it? Well, I'll be honest. I am in a new Well, I'll be honest. I am in a new Well, I'll be honest. I am in a new season now and the thought of going back season now and the thought of going back season now and the thought of going back and writing about the divorce, at first and writing about the divorce, at first and writing about the divorce, at first I was like, "Yeah, I don't know that I I was like, "Yeah, I don't know that I I was like, "Yeah, I don't know that I really want to do that." Mhm. really want to do that." Mhm. really want to do that." Mhm. >> Plus, I don't ever want to give anyone >> Plus, I don't ever want to give anyone >> Plus, I don't ever want to give anyone the impression that I'm pro divorce the impression that I'm pro divorce the impression that I'm pro divorce because I'm not. I'm very pro marriage, because I'm not. I'm very pro marriage, because I'm not. I'm very pro marriage, but I'm pro healthy marriage. Yeah. but I'm pro healthy marriage. Yeah. but I'm pro healthy marriage. Yeah. >> Um here's what really prompted me to >> Um here's what really prompted me to >> Um here's what really prompted me to consider writing this book and consider writing this book and consider writing this book and eventually writing the book. eventually writing the book. eventually writing the book. When I was going through my unwanted When I was going through my unwanted When I was going through my unwanted divorce, I had access to Jim Cress as my divorce, I had access to Jim Cress as my divorce, I had access to Jim Cress as my therapist and Dr. Joel Mudamalle because therapist and Dr. Joel Mudamalle because therapist and Dr. Joel Mudamalle because he is an amazing theologian that works he is an amazing theologian that works he is an amazing theologian that works for me. for me. for me. And so, that gave me unique access and And so, that gave me unique access and And so, that gave me unique access and their educated, wise, and very tender their educated, wise, and very tender their educated, wise, and very tender voices were such a gift to me that I voices were such a gift to me that I voices were such a gift to me that I felt like I just couldn't keep it to felt like I just couldn't keep it to felt like I just couldn't keep it to myself. I want everyone to have access myself. I want everyone to have access myself. I want everyone to have access to their wisdom. And on top of that, I to their wisdom. And on top of that, I to their wisdom. And on top of that, I felt like there was experiential wisdom felt like there was experiential wisdom felt like there was experiential wisdom that I gained along the way um that I that I gained along the way um that I that I gained along the way um that I knew could help people and specifically, knew could help people and specifically, knew could help people and specifically, the women that I interact with all the the women that I interact with all the the women that I interact with all the time at my retreats and my conferences time at my retreats and my conferences time at my retreats and my conferences and the women that buy books and send me and the women that buy books and send me and the women that buy books and send me emails and letters. You know, it's the emails and letters. You know, it's the emails and letters. You know, it's the same questions over and over and over same questions over and over and over same questions over and over and over and I just felt like this is the book and I just felt like this is the book and I just felt like this is the book that would have really helped me and I that would have really helped me and I that would have really helped me and I felt responsible to write it. Well, I'm

felt responsible to write it. Well, I'm felt responsible to write it. Well, I'm glad you did, too, because, you know, if glad you did, too, because, you know, if glad you did, too, because, you know, if I'm totally honest with you, I'm totally honest with you, I'm totally honest with you, probably my answer to divorce was very probably my answer to divorce was very probably my answer to divorce was very black and white 30 years ago when I black and white 30 years ago when I black and white 30 years ago when I started in ministry. It was sort of started in ministry. It was sort of started in ministry. It was sort of like, "Nope, not an option." And I look like, "Nope, not an option." And I look like, "Nope, not an option." And I look back on some of those conversations and back on some of those conversations and back on some of those conversations and I wonder what kind of suffering I I wonder what kind of suffering I I wonder what kind of suffering I inflicted on people if they actually inflicted on people if they actually inflicted on people if they actually followed my advice. And it's it's, you followed my advice. And it's it's, you followed my advice. And it's it's, you know, the scripture's clear, know, the scripture's clear, know, the scripture's clear, but it's not harsh. but it's not harsh. but it's not harsh. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Does that make sense? Absolutely. >> mean. >> mean. >> mean. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> And >> And >> And yeah, go ahead. You're going to say yeah, go ahead. You're going to say yeah, go ahead. You're going to say something. something. something. >> Yeah, so, you know, there's usually one >> Yeah, so, you know, there's usually one >> Yeah, so, you know, there's usually one verse that Christians know when it comes verse that Christians know when it comes verse that Christians know when it comes to divorce. It's Malachi 2:16. Although to divorce. It's Malachi 2:16. Although to divorce. It's Malachi 2:16. Although most of us don't know the reference to most of us don't know the reference to most of us don't know the reference to it. That we just know God hates divorce. it. That we just know God hates divorce. it. That we just know God hates divorce. Yep. And that verse Yep. And that verse Yep. And that verse has been spoken by very well-meaning has been spoken by very well-meaning has been spoken by very well-meaning people in an attempt to protect what people in an attempt to protect what people in an attempt to protect what should be protected and that is should be protected and that is should be protected and that is God-honoring marriages, healthy God-honoring marriages, healthy God-honoring marriages, healthy marriages.

marriages. marriages. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But my friend Leslie Vernick does an >> But my friend Leslie Vernick does an >> But my friend Leslie Vernick does an excellent job of helping us understand excellent job of helping us understand excellent job of helping us understand there's a big difference between there's a big difference between there's a big difference between garden-variety difficulties in your garden-variety difficulties in your garden-variety difficulties in your marriage and a destructive marriage. marriage and a destructive marriage. marriage and a destructive marriage. Those are two totally different things. Those are two totally different things. Those are two totally different things. And if we take God hates divorce and we And if we take God hates divorce and we And if we take God hates divorce and we use it in an effort to try to either use it in an effort to try to either use it in an effort to try to either shame someone, guilt them, shame someone, guilt them, shame someone, guilt them, um or use this verse in any kind of a um or use this verse in any kind of a um or use this verse in any kind of a weapon against them to try to force them weapon against them to try to force them weapon against them to try to force them into, you know, into, you know, into, you know, make sure you don't divorce for any make sure you don't divorce for any make sure you don't divorce for any reason ever, ever, ever, then you can do reason ever, ever, ever, then you can do reason ever, ever, ever, then you can do a lot of damage to people. So, I think a lot of damage to people. So, I think a lot of damage to people. So, I think we have to we have to go back. Okay, we have to we have to go back. Okay, we have to we have to go back. Okay, what does Malachi 2:16 actually say? In what does Malachi 2:16 actually say? In what does Malachi 2:16 actually say? In some Bible some Bible some Bible It Well, in some versions of the Bible, It Well, in some versions of the Bible, It Well, in some versions of the Bible, it does say God hates divorce in the it does say God hates divorce in the it does say God hates divorce in the King James Bible, for example. King James Bible, for example. King James Bible, for example. But the King James King James version is But the King James King James version is But the King James King James version is where that interpretation, translation where that interpretation, translation where that interpretation, translation originated. originated. originated. But the King James is not the first But the King James is not the first But the King James is not the first Bible. In order to go back to the Bible. In order to go back to the Bible. In order to go back to the original language, we go all the way original language, we go all the way original language, we go all the way back to the Septuagint, which is the back to the Septuagint, which is the back to the Septuagint, which is the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek.

Hebrew Bible translated into Greek. Hebrew Bible translated into Greek. >> Yeah, and some people right now are >> Yeah, and some people right now are >> Yeah, and some people right now are like, "Wait, excuse me? Can Can you just like, "Wait, excuse me? Can Can you just like, "Wait, excuse me? Can Can you just I know Joel's Joel's going to be on this I know Joel's Joel's going to be on this I know Joel's Joel's going to be on this show. show. show. Uh he's not on this call, but can you Uh he's not on this call, but can you Uh he's not on this call, but can you can you hear resident theologian, can can you hear resident theologian, can can you hear resident theologian, can you just explain for people because I'm you just explain for people because I'm you just explain for people because I'm not sure that we have a lot of them who not sure that we have a lot of them who not sure that we have a lot of them who listen to a show like this, but who are listen to a show like this, but who are listen to a show like this, but who are like, 'What do you mean the King James like, 'What do you mean the King James like, 'What do you mean the King James Bible is not the original Bible?'" Yeah, Bible is not the original Bible?'" Yeah, Bible is not the original Bible?'" Yeah, so, It's pretty obvious, 1611. There so, It's pretty obvious, 1611. There so, It's pretty obvious, 1611. There wasn't a 1,600-year gap. So, what is wasn't a 1,600-year gap. So, what is wasn't a 1,600-year gap. So, what is that? Yes. So, the original Bible, that? Yes. So, the original Bible, that? Yes. So, the original Bible, Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, um Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, um Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, um that's called the Septuagint. And so, that's called the Septuagint. And so, that's called the Septuagint. And so, that's where we can do a lot of language that's where we can do a lot of language that's where we can do a lot of language work. Of course, when we're looking at work. Of course, when we're looking at work. Of course, when we're looking at the original language, we look for the the original language, we look for the the original language, we look for the Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek. So, I think it's Testament in Greek. So, I think it's Testament in Greek. So, I think it's really important that we go back to the really important that we go back to the really important that we go back to the original language. And in the original original language. And in the original original language. And in the original language, a much closer, better language, a much closer, better language, a much closer, better interpretation interpretation interpretation for Malachi 2:16 is this: "When a man for Malachi 2:16 is this: "When a man for Malachi 2:16 is this: "When a man hates and divorces his wife, he does hates and divorces his wife, he does hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should violence against the one he should violence against the one he should protect, thus says the Lord."

protect, thus says the Lord." protect, thus says the Lord." So, now, So, now, So, now, like, when I open up my NIV Bible, like, when I open up my NIV Bible, like, when I open up my NIV Bible, that's what it says now. And there's a that's what it says now. And there's a that's what it says now. And there's a little footnote and underneath it little footnote and underneath it little footnote and underneath it acknowledges the King James version's acknowledges the King James version's acknowledges the King James version's interpretation of God hates divorce, interpretation of God hates divorce, interpretation of God hates divorce, okay? But let me just say what it says okay? But let me just say what it says okay? But let me just say what it says now. "When a man hates and divorces his now. "When a man hates and divorces his now. "When a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one wife, he does violence against the one wife, he does violence against the one he should protect, thus says the Lord." he should protect, thus says the Lord." he should protect, thus says the Lord." That's a big difference to give someone That's a big difference to give someone That's a big difference to give someone that verse as opposed to God hates that verse as opposed to God hates that verse as opposed to God hates divorce. Because when someone's walking divorce. Because when someone's walking divorce. Because when someone's walking through a divorce, especially someone through a divorce, especially someone through a divorce, especially someone walking through an unwanted divorce, it walking through an unwanted divorce, it walking through an unwanted divorce, it can easily be misunderstood God hates can easily be misunderstood God hates can easily be misunderstood God hates divorced people. divorced people. divorced people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or your life is Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or your life is Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or your life is now over. Your life is now over. now over. Your life is now over. now over. Your life is now over. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> You're 28 and it's it's it's washed up. >> You're 28 and it's it's it's washed up. >> You're 28 and it's it's it's washed up. Yeah. And so, do I think we need to Yeah. And so, do I think we need to Yeah. And so, do I think we need to protect marriages? Yes, I do think we protect marriages? Yes, I do think we protect marriages? Yes, I do think we need to protect marriages. But we cannot need to protect marriages. But we cannot need to protect marriages. But we cannot elevate the institution of marriage over elevate the institution of marriage over elevate the institution of marriage over protecting the sanctity of life of an protecting the sanctity of life of an protecting the sanctity of life of an image-bearer of Christ. And if there's image-bearer of Christ. And if there's image-bearer of Christ. And if there's an image-bearer of Christ in a an image-bearer of Christ in a an image-bearer of Christ in a destructive marriage that's just being destructive marriage that's just being destructive marriage that's just being hurt over and over and over. And I don't hurt over and over and over. And I don't hurt over and over and over. And I don't mean that the other spouse is making mean that the other spouse is making mean that the other spouse is making mistakes. I mean, when mistakes become mistakes. I mean, when mistakes become mistakes. I mean, when mistakes become destructive patterns of behavior, we destructive patterns of behavior, we destructive patterns of behavior, we have to pay attention to that. And we have to pay attention to that. And we have to pay attention to that. And we have to stop weaponizing scripture, but have to stop weaponizing scripture, but have to stop weaponizing scripture, but rather understand scripture, get into rather understand scripture, get into rather understand scripture, get into God's word, and really understand it God's word, and really understand it God's word, and really understand it before we weaponize it and we should before we weaponize it and we should before we weaponize it and we should never weaponize it against other people.

never weaponize it against other people. never weaponize it against other people. So, Lisa, you know, my wife Tony and I, So, Lisa, you know, my wife Tony and I, So, Lisa, you know, my wife Tony and I, we've spent some time together in person we've spent some time together in person we've spent some time together in person and it's no secret that we have not had and it's no secret that we have not had and it's no secret that we have not had an easy marriage. Um we went through an easy marriage. Um we went through an easy marriage. Um we went through some really difficult seasons. We're in some really difficult seasons. We're in some really difficult seasons. We're in a better season now, but like, you know, a better season now, but like, you know, a better season now, but like, you know, we're two strong-willed people, we're two strong-willed people, we're two strong-willed people, firstborn, firstborn, firstborn, both lawyers, met in law school. Like, I both lawyers, met in law school. Like, I both lawyers, met in law school. Like, I mean, there was mean, there was mean, there was and both with unresolved emotional and both with unresolved emotional and both with unresolved emotional issues coming into a marriage and it led issues coming into a marriage and it led issues coming into a marriage and it led to a very difficult decade um for us in to a very difficult decade um for us in to a very difficult decade um for us in our marriage where honestly, if it our marriage where honestly, if it our marriage where honestly, if it wasn't for her faith, my faith, we wasn't for her faith, my faith, we wasn't for her faith, my faith, we wouldn't be together today. wouldn't be together today. wouldn't be together today. What in your mind is the difference What in your mind is the difference What in your mind is the difference between a difficult marriage and a between a difficult marriage and a between a difficult marriage and a destructive marriage? destructive marriage? destructive marriage? So, a difficult marriage is where two So, a difficult marriage is where two So, a difficult marriage is where two people are humble enough, repentant people are humble enough, repentant people are humble enough, repentant enough, and willing enough to continue enough, and willing enough to continue enough, and willing enough to continue to work on what can happen when you to work on what can happen when you to work on what can happen when you throw throw two sinners and tell them, throw throw two sinners and tell them, throw throw two sinners and tell them, "Do life together." You know, raise "Do life together." You know, raise "Do life together." You know, raise Which is pretty much a universal recipe Which is pretty much a universal recipe Which is pretty much a universal recipe for marriage, right? Two sinners do life for marriage, right? Two sinners do life for marriage, right? Two sinners do life together, good luck.

together, good luck. together, good luck. >> Yeah, exactly. And so, when you've got >> Yeah, exactly. And so, when you've got >> Yeah, exactly. And so, when you've got two people willing, humble enough, two people willing, humble enough, two people willing, humble enough, repentant enough to work on those, then repentant enough to work on those, then repentant enough to work on those, then marriage difficulties, they're quite marriage difficulties, they're quite marriage difficulties, they're quite normal and those are good reasons to go normal and those are good reasons to go normal and those are good reasons to go to marriage counseling, to go to to marriage counseling, to go to to marriage counseling, to go to marriage conferences, you know, work on marriage conferences, you know, work on marriage conferences, you know, work on the difficulties and differences between the difficulties and differences between the difficulties and differences between the two. the two. the two. When we're talking about a destructive When we're talking about a destructive When we're talking about a destructive marriage, we're talking about one person marriage, we're talking about one person marriage, we're talking about one person in the marriage, like, the two come in the marriage, like, the two come in the marriage, like, the two come together, one person in the marriage is together, one person in the marriage is together, one person in the marriage is seeking the other person's highest good. seeking the other person's highest good. seeking the other person's highest good. Mhm. But this person is not seeking Mhm. But this person is not seeking Mhm. But this person is not seeking their spouse's highest good. As a matter their spouse's highest good. As a matter their spouse's highest good. As a matter of fact, they are in repeated patterns of fact, they are in repeated patterns of fact, they are in repeated patterns that are destructive to that other that are destructive to that other that are destructive to that other person. They're destructive maybe to person. They're destructive maybe to person. They're destructive maybe to their um physical health, their sexual their um physical health, their sexual their um physical health, their sexual health, their mental health, their um health, their mental health, their um health, their mental health, their um emotional health, their relational emotional health, their relational emotional health, their relational health. And so, we've got to pay health. And so, we've got to pay health. And so, we've got to pay attention to those destructive patterns attention to those destructive patterns attention to those destructive patterns cuz there's a big difference between a cuz there's a big difference between a cuz there's a big difference between a mistake which there's grace for and a mistake which there's grace for and a mistake which there's grace for and a destructive pattern, especially when the destructive pattern, especially when the destructive pattern, especially when the one who's hurting the other goes one who's hurting the other goes one who's hurting the other goes unrepentant. They're not repenting or if unrepentant. They're not repenting or if unrepentant. They're not repenting or if they do, it's temporary and they go they do, it's temporary and they go they do, it's temporary and they go right back to their bad behavior. When right back to their bad behavior. When right back to their bad behavior. When there's not humility there, when there's there's not humility there, when there's there's not humility there, when there's blaming, when there's um blaming, when there's um blaming, when there's um all kinds of forms of emotional abuse, all kinds of forms of emotional abuse, all kinds of forms of emotional abuse, gaslighting, when there's verbal abuse, gaslighting, when there's verbal abuse, gaslighting, when there's verbal abuse, sexual abuse. Like, we have to really

sexual abuse. Like, we have to really sexual abuse. Like, we have to really pay attention to these things and pay attention to these things and pay attention to these things and recognize that that's when it's time to recognize that that's when it's time to recognize that that's when it's time to call in the professionals who are call in the professionals who are call in the professionals who are specifically trained to recognize these specifically trained to recognize these specifically trained to recognize these very complicated and destructive very complicated and destructive very complicated and destructive patterns. patterns. patterns. That's an interesting distinction. So, That's an interesting distinction. So, That's an interesting distinction. So, you said something when you were talking you said something when you were talking you said something when you were talking about difficult marriages, you said about difficult marriages, you said about difficult marriages, you said we're two people and you said that a we're two people and you said that a we're two people and you said that a couple of times. And the number of times couple of times. And the number of times couple of times. And the number of times I have sat down with people, whether I have sat down with people, whether I have sat down with people, whether it's difficult or destructive, and you it's difficult or destructive, and you it's difficult or destructive, and you have one willing person and the other have one willing person and the other have one willing person and the other person is not willing, you know, person is not willing, you know, person is not willing, you know, according to them, not responding, not according to them, not responding, not according to them, not responding, not willing, not I will not go to willing, not I will not go to willing, not I will not go to counseling, there's nothing wrong with counseling, there's nothing wrong with counseling, there's nothing wrong with me, it's all on you. And I think every me, it's all on you. And I think every me, it's all on you. And I think every couple gets there for at least 10 couple gets there for at least 10 couple gets there for at least 10 minutes, if not a little bit longer. But minutes, if not a little bit longer. But minutes, if not a little bit longer. But when you have that sustained pattern, when you have that sustained pattern, when you have that sustained pattern, cuz you said, when two people are cuz you said, when two people are cuz you said, when two people are willing to work on it. And ultimately, willing to work on it. And ultimately, willing to work on it. And ultimately, that's been Tony's story and my story. that's been Tony's story and my story. that's been Tony's story and my story. She's been willing to do the work. I am She's been willing to do the work. I am She's been willing to do the work. I am trying to do the work. And guess what? trying to do the work. And guess what? trying to do the work. And guess what? We ended up in a very different place.

We ended up in a very different place. We ended up in a very different place. So, So, So, thanks be to God, 35 years, we're really thanks be to God, 35 years, we're really thanks be to God, 35 years, we're really grateful. grateful. grateful. What would you say to and you've got What would you say to and you've got What would you say to and you've got tens of thousands of church leaders tens of thousands of church leaders tens of thousands of church leaders listening to this right now, watching listening to this right now, watching listening to this right now, watching it. it. it. They're like, well, we don't have to. We They're like, well, we don't have to. We They're like, well, we don't have to. We have one and it's me. have one and it's me. have one and it's me. What do you say to that person? Well, Well, um um um if they are looking at their marriage if they are looking at their marriage if they are looking at their marriage and they think their needs hold the and they think their needs hold the and they think their needs hold the primary place, then that's not a primary place, then that's not a primary place, then that's not a marriage, that's a mirage. marriage, that's a mirage. marriage, that's a mirage. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And I think it is it's very concerning And I think it is it's very concerning And I think it is it's very concerning when when when you look at the value that God places on you look at the value that God places on you look at the value that God places on two image bearers of Christ coming two image bearers of Christ coming two image bearers of Christ coming together, together, together, it should never be the primary it should never be the primary it should never be the primary needs of one person needs of one person needs of one person lording over the needs of the other lording over the needs of the other lording over the needs of the other person. We've got two image bearers of person. We've got two image bearers of person. We've got two image bearers of Christ coming together and God takes Christ coming together and God takes Christ coming together and God takes that very, very seriously. And so, if that very, very seriously. And so, if that very, very seriously. And so, if you are creating a destructive you are creating a destructive you are creating a destructive environment for an image bearer of environment for an image bearer of environment for an image bearer of Christ, then that is very concerning Christ, then that is very concerning Christ, then that is very concerning behavior and it's something that needs behavior and it's something that needs behavior and it's something that needs to be addressed by professionals. And to be addressed by professionals. And to be addressed by professionals. And the only hope that that marriage has is the only hope that that marriage has is the only hope that that marriage has is for for for the one who is thinking, it's my needs, the one who is thinking, it's my needs, the one who is thinking, it's my needs, everything goes my way or the highway,

everything goes my way or the highway, everything goes my way or the highway, then that there's a lack of humility then that there's a lack of humility then that there's a lack of humility there and a hardness of heart that there and a hardness of heart that there and a hardness of heart that before you even work on the marriage, before you even work on the marriage, before you even work on the marriage, you've got to work on that individual you've got to work on that individual you've got to work on that individual because that's really concerning. It's because that's really concerning. It's because that's really concerning. It's concerning not just from a marriage concerning not just from a marriage concerning not just from a marriage standpoint, but also from a standpoint, but also from a standpoint, but also from a sanctification standpoint. That's just sanctification standpoint. That's just sanctification standpoint. That's just not the way it should work. not the way it should work. not the way it should work. So, if you're the quote victim and So, if you're the quote victim and So, if you're the quote victim and nobody really likes victim mentality or nobody really likes victim mentality or nobody really likes victim mentality or mindset, but if you're the person mindset, but if you're the person mindset, but if you're the person willing to do the work, willing to grow, willing to do the work, willing to grow, willing to do the work, willing to grow, who is on the other end, in other words, who is on the other end, in other words, who is on the other end, in other words, you're the one party that wants to make you're the one party that wants to make you're the one party that wants to make it better and the other person is like, it better and the other person is like, it better and the other person is like, there's no problems. What do you do if there's no problems. What do you do if there's no problems. What do you do if you're that person and your spouse is you're that person and your spouse is you're that person and your spouse is just not responding? What happens then? just not responding? What happens then? just not responding? What happens then? Well, I think there's a couple things Well, I think there's a couple things Well, I think there's a couple things that need to happen. One is you can't that need to happen. One is you can't that need to happen. One is you can't work harder on another person than work harder on another person than work harder on another person than they're willing to work on themselves. they're willing to work on themselves. they're willing to work on themselves. So, your energy and effort is much So, your energy and effort is much So, your energy and effort is much better spent working on yourself and better spent working on yourself and better spent working on yourself and keeping yourself healthy and stable and keeping yourself healthy and stable and keeping yourself healthy and stable and sane. And one thing that I really had to sane. And one thing that I really had to sane. And one thing that I really had to work on in that dynamic is boundaries.

work on in that dynamic is boundaries. work on in that dynamic is boundaries. Now, boundaries can be very complicated Now, boundaries can be very complicated Now, boundaries can be very complicated and the minute I say boundaries, some and the minute I say boundaries, some and the minute I say boundaries, some Christians really feel like, uh-uh, Christians really feel like, uh-uh, Christians really feel like, uh-uh, that's not Christian. Jesus laid down that's not Christian. Jesus laid down that's not Christian. Jesus laid down his life, he modeled for us lay down our his life, he modeled for us lay down our his life, he modeled for us lay down our life. And I agree with that. Jesus did life. And I agree with that. Jesus did life. And I agree with that. Jesus did lay down his life for others and he lay down his life for others and he lay down his life for others and he modeled for us to do the same. However, modeled for us to do the same. However, modeled for us to do the same. However, Jesus laid his life down to accomplish a Jesus laid his life down to accomplish a Jesus laid his life down to accomplish a high and holy purpose. He did not lay high and holy purpose. He did not lay high and holy purpose. He did not lay his life down to enable bad behavior to his life down to enable bad behavior to his life down to enable bad behavior to continue. Mhm. You're not doing your continue. Mhm. You're not doing your continue. Mhm. You're not doing your spouse any favors by covering up and spouse any favors by covering up and spouse any favors by covering up and preventing them from suffering the preventing them from suffering the preventing them from suffering the natural consequences of their choice. natural consequences of their choice. natural consequences of their choice. Now, look, when you're in a marriage Now, look, when you're in a marriage Now, look, when you're in a marriage dynamic, I know it's scary. It's scary dynamic, I know it's scary. It's scary dynamic, I know it's scary. It's scary for your spouse to suffer consequences for your spouse to suffer consequences for your spouse to suffer consequences of very poor choices because the of very poor choices because the of very poor choices because the closeness of that relationship means closeness of that relationship means closeness of that relationship means chances are those consequences are chances are those consequences are chances are those consequences are probably going to be consequences that probably going to be consequences that probably going to be consequences that you and your children face as well. And you and your children face as well. And you and your children face as well. And so, this is a very complicated dynamic. so, this is a very complicated dynamic. so, this is a very complicated dynamic. >> Yeah, there's finan- I mean, my wife >> Yeah, there's finan- I mean, my wife >> Yeah, there's finan- I mean, my wife practiced in family law. You take a bath practiced in family law. You take a bath practiced in family law. You take a bath financially if the marriage breaks down.

financially if the marriage breaks down. financially if the marriage breaks down. And And And >> everybody does. It's not just one side. >> everybody does. It's not just one side. >> everybody does. It's not just one side. You can have the best lawyers in the You can have the best lawyers in the You can have the best lawyers in the world and everyone is poorer, more world and everyone is poorer, more world and everyone is poorer, more fragile, uh it's really di- not to fragile, uh it's really di- not to fragile, uh it's really di- not to mention the emotional. mention the emotional. mention the emotional. Absolutely. And that's why, you know, I Absolutely. And that's why, you know, I Absolutely. And that's why, you know, I always encourage people count the cost always encourage people count the cost always encourage people count the cost on both sides. But count the cost on on both sides. But count the cost on on both sides. But count the cost on both sides. both sides. both sides. >> Both sides. In my situation, >> Both sides. In my situation, >> Both sides. In my situation, um um um you know, I I was very much you know, I I was very much you know, I I was very much of the mentality that of the mentality that of the mentality that you just I I just did not want divorce you just I I just did not want divorce you just I I just did not want divorce to be attached to my name, to my family, to be attached to my name, to my family, to be attached to my name, to my family, to I I didn't want to walk through that. to I I didn't want to walk through that. to I I didn't want to walk through that. I just didn't. So, I did everything that I just didn't. So, I did everything that I just didn't. So, I did everything that I possibly could. I stayed and gave I possibly could. I stayed and gave I possibly could. I stayed and gave second chances, third chances, fourth second chances, third chances, fourth second chances, third chances, fourth chances, fifth chances. And I think chances, fifth chances. And I think chances, fifth chances. And I think there were noble reasons for that and I there were noble reasons for that and I there were noble reasons for that and I think there were some very unhealthy think there were some very unhealthy think there were some very unhealthy reasons for that. reasons for that. reasons for that. >> What are some of the unhealthy reasons >> What are some of the unhealthy reasons >> What are some of the unhealthy reasons for that, Lisa? Like, why why would you for that, Lisa? Like, why why would you for that, Lisa? Like, why why would you do that? I was codependent. Um and when do that? I was codependent. Um and when do that? I was codependent. Um and when I say codependent, it's it and I'm a I say codependent, it's it and I'm a I say codependent, it's it and I'm a very independent woman. So, it's like, very independent woman. So, it's like, very independent woman. So, it's like, wait, I'm codependent? But what that wait, I'm codependent? But what that wait, I'm codependent? But what that means is I need you to be okay so I can means is I need you to be okay so I can means is I need you to be okay so I can feel okay. So, how can I make you okay feel okay. So, how can I make you okay feel okay. So, how can I make you okay so I can feel okay, okay? And so, you're so I can feel okay, okay? And so, you're so I can feel okay, okay? And so, you're always trying to make sure that that always trying to make sure that that always trying to make sure that that other person is in an okay place. And other person is in an okay place. And other person is in an okay place. And sometimes that leads right into enabling sometimes that leads right into enabling sometimes that leads right into enabling bad behavior because if this person bad behavior because if this person bad behavior because if this person suffers consequences and they're not suffers consequences and they're not suffers consequences and they're not okay, and if you can't feel okay and you

okay, and if you can't feel okay and you okay, and if you can't feel okay and you can't regulate without them being okay, can't regulate without them being okay, can't regulate without them being okay, that's where that dysfunctional dance that's where that dysfunctional dance that's where that dysfunctional dance really starts to get um to a dangerous really starts to get um to a dangerous really starts to get um to a dangerous place. And so, place. And so, place. And so, you know, it's it's really important at you know, it's it's really important at you know, it's it's really important at that point to have professionals step in that point to have professionals step in that point to have professionals step in so that they can help you see what you so that they can help you see what you so that they can help you see what you need to see in order to work on what need to see in order to work on what need to see in order to work on what actually needs to be worked on. And in actually needs to be worked on. And in actually needs to be worked on. And in some situations, it's the individuals some situations, it's the individuals some situations, it's the individuals that are going to have to work on things that are going to have to work on things that are going to have to work on things before trying to work on the marriage before trying to work on the marriage before trying to work on the marriage because if you've got one person willing because if you've got one person willing because if you've got one person willing to work and the other person is to work and the other person is to work and the other person is unwilling or incapable of making unwilling or incapable of making unwilling or incapable of making necessary changes, then trying to force necessary changes, then trying to force necessary changes, then trying to force that person to work on the marriage is a that person to work on the marriage is a that person to work on the marriage is a mute point because they've got to do mute point because they've got to do mute point because they've got to do some individual work first. And if some individual work first. And if some individual work first. And if they're unwilling or incapable, then you they're unwilling or incapable, then you they're unwilling or incapable, then you can't leave the spouse that is willing can't leave the spouse that is willing can't leave the spouse that is willing and is capable of working um you can't and is capable of working um you can't and is capable of working um you can't leave them paralyzed. So, they need to leave them paralyzed. So, they need to leave them paralyzed. So, they need to work on themselves. And I discovered for work on themselves. And I discovered for work on themselves. And I discovered for a long time I was working harder on him a long time I was working harder on him a long time I was working harder on him than he was willing to work hard and he than he was willing to work hard and he than he was willing to work hard and he was working on him. So, I had to change was working on him. So, I had to change was working on him. So, I had to change my energy and my focus to working on me my energy and my focus to working on me my energy and my focus to working on me and part of that was establishing and part of that was establishing and part of that was establishing healthy boundaries. It's complicated, healthy boundaries. It's complicated, healthy boundaries. It's complicated, you know, when you hear the word you know, when you hear the word you know, when you hear the word boundaries in marriage because like, how boundaries in marriage because like, how boundaries in marriage because like, how do you do that? But look, boundaries are do you do that? But look, boundaries are do you do that? But look, boundaries are nothing more than an effective nothing more than an effective nothing more than an effective communication tool to establish what is communication tool to establish what is communication tool to establish what is and is not okay, what you will and will and is not okay, what you will and will and is not okay, what you will and will not tolerate, what you do and do not not tolerate, what you do and do not not tolerate, what you do and do not have to give. Now, always check your have to give. Now, always check your have to give. Now, always check your heart to make sure you're not being heart to make sure you're not being heart to make sure you're not being selfish as you communicate boundaries.

selfish as you communicate boundaries. selfish as you communicate boundaries. And remember, boundaries are not meant And remember, boundaries are not meant And remember, boundaries are not meant as a punishment, they're not meant as a as a punishment, they're not meant as a as a punishment, they're not meant as a control tactic, none of that. They're control tactic, none of that. They're control tactic, none of that. They're not meant to be manipulative in any way. not meant to be manipulative in any way. not meant to be manipulative in any way. Boundaries are not meant to shove the Boundaries are not meant to shove the Boundaries are not meant to shove the other person away. Boundaries are so other person away. Boundaries are so other person away. Boundaries are so that I can hold myself together and that I can hold myself together and that I can hold myself together and they're an effective communication tool. they're an effective communication tool. they're an effective communication tool. And so, when you establish boundaries, And so, when you establish boundaries, And so, when you establish boundaries, you also have to have a consequence. And you also have to have a consequence. And you also have to have a consequence. And so, that's where you can say, like, I'm so, that's where you can say, like, I'm so, that's where you can say, like, I'm going to let you make your own choice. going to let you make your own choice. going to let you make your own choice. I'm not going to control you, I'm not going to control you, I'm not going to control you, manipulate. I'm not putting a boundary manipulate. I'm not putting a boundary manipulate. I'm not putting a boundary on you. I am putting putting a boundary on you. I am putting putting a boundary on you. I am putting putting a boundary on myself. And in the case, let's say, on myself. And in the case, let's say, on myself. And in the case, let's say, one of the destructive patterns in this one of the destructive patterns in this one of the destructive patterns in this marriage is addictions. Yeah. I am no marriage is addictions. Yeah. I am no marriage is addictions. Yeah. I am no longer willing to drive anywhere in a longer willing to drive anywhere in a longer willing to drive anywhere in a car with you when you are active in car with you when you are active in car with you when you are active in addiction. It makes me afraid and I will addiction. It makes me afraid and I will addiction. It makes me afraid and I will not do it. And I don't say, okay? I not do it. And I don't say, okay? I not do it. And I don't say, okay? I don't do that. Right, right. What is and don't do that. Right, right. What is and don't do that. Right, right. What is and is I will not put myself or my children is I will not put myself or my children is I will not put myself or my children in a vehicle when you're in active in a vehicle when you're in active in a vehicle when you're in active addiction. I will not do that.

addiction. I will not do that. addiction. I will not do that. Period. And as my counselor Jim Cress Period. And as my counselor Jim Cress Period. And as my counselor Jim Cress says, adults inform, children explain. says, adults inform, children explain. says, adults inform, children explain. You don't need to stand there and You don't need to stand there and You don't need to stand there and explain, you don't need to permission explain, you don't need to permission explain, you don't need to permission for that boundary, but you need to start for that boundary, but you need to start for that boundary, but you need to start establishing what is and is not healthy establishing what is and is not healthy establishing what is and is not healthy in the dynamic of that home because your in the dynamic of that home because your in the dynamic of that home because your kids deserve one healthy parent. And you kids deserve one healthy parent. And you kids deserve one healthy parent. And you can't both go down here. It's really can't both go down here. It's really can't both go down here. It's really crucial. crucial. crucial. So, in our book Surviving an Unwanted So, in our book Surviving an Unwanted So, in our book Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, you will hear my experiential Divorce, you will hear my experiential Divorce, you will hear my experiential wisdom based on my journey that I went wisdom based on my journey that I went wisdom based on my journey that I went through, but you also get to hear the through, but you also get to hear the through, but you also get to hear the therapeutic wisdom from Jim Cress, therapeutic wisdom from Jim Cress, therapeutic wisdom from Jim Cress, licensed professional counselor, and licensed professional counselor, and licensed professional counselor, and also Dr. Joel Mudamali, who has done the also Dr. Joel Mudamali, who has done the also Dr. Joel Mudamali, who has done the theological work to do an entire theological work to do an entire theological work to do an entire biblical theology of what the Bible biblical theology of what the Bible biblical theology of what the Bible actually does say and does not say about actually does say and does not say about actually does say and does not say about this very delicate topic, divorce. This this very delicate topic, divorce. This this very delicate topic, divorce. This episode is brought to you by Glue AI. episode is brought to you by Glue AI. episode is brought to you by Glue AI. So, which AI tools are your people So, which AI tools are your people So, which AI tools are your people using? ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity? using? ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity? using? ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity? Well, the difference might seem minor, Well, the difference might seem minor, Well, the difference might seem minor, not all AI is created equal. Your not all AI is created equal. Your not all AI is created equal. Your congregation and your staff are using congregation and your staff are using congregation and your staff are using these tools and as a leader, you got to these tools and as a leader, you got to these tools and as a leader, you got to help them answer the question is AI help them answer the question is AI help them answer the question is AI contributing to human flourishing or contributing to human flourishing or contributing to human flourishing or detracting from it. And this is the detracting from it. And this is the detracting from it. And this is the driving force behind Gloo AI. It's a driving force behind Gloo AI. It's a driving force behind Gloo AI. It's a pioneering initiative to align AI with pioneering initiative to align AI with pioneering initiative to align AI with human flourishing. The flourishing AI or human flourishing. The flourishing AI or human flourishing. The flourishing AI or FAI benchmark is the Gloo vision for AI FAI benchmark is the Gloo vision for AI FAI benchmark is the Gloo vision for AI that is ethically grounded, mission

that is ethically grounded, mission that is ethically grounded, mission driven and values aligned. So rather driven and values aligned. So rather driven and values aligned. So rather than measuring AI on speed or accuracy, than measuring AI on speed or accuracy, than measuring AI on speed or accuracy, the flourishing AI approach evaluates AI the flourishing AI approach evaluates AI the flourishing AI approach evaluates AI tools based on their alignment with the tools based on their alignment with the tools based on their alignment with the key dimensions of human flourishing, key dimensions of human flourishing, key dimensions of human flourishing, helping leaders steward the question helping leaders steward the question helping leaders steward the question should we use this tool. So this is one should we use this tool. So this is one should we use this tool. So this is one of the ways Gloo is building high-tech of the ways Gloo is building high-tech of the ways Gloo is building high-tech for a higher purpose. So you can for a higher purpose. So you can for a higher purpose. So you can discover flourishing AI at discover flourishing AI at discover flourishing AI at gloo.com/carey. That's gloo.com/carey. That's gloo.com/carey. That's gloo.com/carey. This episode is brought gloo.com/carey. This episode is brought gloo.com/carey. This episode is brought to you by my 2026 Church Trends. Hey, as you head into Church Trends. Hey, as you head into 2026, what cultural shifts do you need 2026, what cultural shifts do you need 2026, what cultural shifts do you need to keep an eye on as a church leader? I to keep an eye on as a church leader? I to keep an eye on as a church leader? I mean, it's a really big question, right? mean, it's a really big question, right? mean, it's a really big question, right? You got your head down trying to do the You got your head down trying to do the You got your head down trying to do the work from day to day, but there's some work from day to day, but there's some work from day to day, but there's some big stuff happening, right? You and I big stuff happening, right? You and I big stuff happening, right? You and I both know how easy it is to get caught both know how easy it is to get caught both know how easy it is to get caught up into the week-to-week of ministry, up into the week-to-week of ministry, up into the week-to-week of ministry, sermons, meetings, you know, Sunday sermons, meetings, you know, Sunday sermons, meetings, you know, Sunday after Sunday grind and you just miss after Sunday grind and you just miss after Sunday grind and you just miss what's really going on in the culture. what's really going on in the culture. what's really going on in the culture. That's why every year I release my That's why every year I release my That's why every year I release my annual Church Trends report and it's to annual Church Trends report and it's to annual Church Trends report and it's to help you see what's next and to lead help you see what's next and to lead help you see what's next and to lead with clarity. So for 2026, I've with clarity. So for 2026, I've with clarity. So for 2026, I've identified seven disruptive trends that identified seven disruptive trends that identified seven disruptive trends that are shaping the future of the church.

are shaping the future of the church. are shaping the future of the church. And we're seeing Gen Z's surprising And we're seeing Gen Z's surprising And we're seeing Gen Z's surprising surge in church attendance. They're kind surge in church attendance. They're kind surge in church attendance. They're kind of leading it. Uh something very few of leading it. Uh something very few of leading it. Uh something very few people expected 2 years ago. There's a people expected 2 years ago. There's a people expected 2 years ago. There's a new boldness in evangelism I'm going to new boldness in evangelism I'm going to new boldness in evangelism I'm going to be talking about and maybe the most be talking about and maybe the most be talking about and maybe the most concerning of all, most churches still concerning of all, most churches still concerning of all, most churches still aren't ready for the AI revolution aren't ready for the AI revolution aren't ready for the AI revolution that's already reshaping ministry and that's already reshaping ministry and that's already reshaping ministry and leadership. So those are just a few of leadership. So those are just a few of leadership. So those are just a few of the trends that we'll be unpacking this the trends that we'll be unpacking this the trends that we'll be unpacking this year. The trends are backed by data and year. The trends are backed by data and year. The trends are backed by data and I share my thoughts on why it's I share my thoughts on why it's I share my thoughts on why it's important and what you can do about it. important and what you can do about it. important and what you can do about it. So this year I'm doing something new. So this year I'm doing something new. So this year I'm doing something new. All the trends are premiering live All the trends are premiering live All the trends are premiering live inside the Art of Leadership Academy. inside the Art of Leadership Academy. inside the Art of Leadership Academy. You'll not only get the full 2026 Church You'll not only get the full 2026 Church You'll not only get the full 2026 Church Trends report and the leader guide, but Trends report and the leader guide, but Trends report and the leader guide, but also a live interactive Q&A and podcast also a live interactive Q&A and podcast also a live interactive Q&A and podcast series. All of that is launching in series. All of that is launching in series. All of that is launching in January. So if you want to be the first January. So if you want to be the first January. So if you want to be the first to access it, head on over to 2026 to access it, head on over to 2026 to access it, head on over to 2026 churchtrends.com for free access. Once churchtrends.com for free access. Once churchtrends.com for free access. Once you've signed up, you'll be in the loop you've signed up, you'll be in the loop you've signed up, you'll be in the loop for everything related to my 2026 Church for everything related to my 2026 Church for everything related to my 2026 Church Trends report. Again, it's all free, so Trends report. Again, it's all free, so Trends report. Again, it's all free, so just click the link in the description just click the link in the description just click the link in the description of this episode or visit 2026 of this episode or visit 2026 of this episode or visit 2026 churchtrends.com. The future of the churchtrends.com. The future of the churchtrends.com. The future of the church is still bright, especially for church is still bright, especially for church is still bright, especially for leaders who see it clearly and who leaders who see it clearly and who leaders who see it clearly and who respond wisely. Yeah, and that's the respond wisely. Yeah, and that's the respond wisely. Yeah, and that's the thing that's that's really fascinating thing that's that's really fascinating thing that's that's really fascinating to me because Joel took a look at what to me because Joel took a look at what to me because Joel took a look at what are the biblical grounds of divorce and are the biblical grounds of divorce and are the biblical grounds of divorce and I learned some things I didn't know.

I learned some things I didn't know. I learned some things I didn't know. Honestly, being raised in the church, Honestly, being raised in the church, Honestly, being raised in the church, being raised a Christian, even being a being raised a Christian, even being a being raised a Christian, even being a seminary grad, I'm like, well, the seminary grad, I'm like, well, the seminary grad, I'm like, well, the biblical grounds of divorce are biblical grounds of divorce are biblical grounds of divorce are everybody knows how to fill in the everybody knows how to fill in the everybody knows how to fill in the blank. If your spouse was unfaithful, blank. If your spouse was unfaithful, blank. If your spouse was unfaithful, you are released from the marriage if you are released from the marriage if you are released from the marriage if you choose to be. you choose to be. you choose to be. And that's about it. And that's about it. And that's about it. Otherwise, you grin and bear it. Otherwise, you grin and bear it. Otherwise, you grin and bear it. That's not what you discovered, right? That's not what you discovered, right? That's not what you discovered, right? Can you explain what understanding you Can you explain what understanding you Can you explain what understanding you now have of biblical grounds for divorce now have of biblical grounds for divorce now have of biblical grounds for divorce or feel free to substitute another more or feel free to substitute another more or feel free to substitute another more I don't know, helpful phrase. I don't know, helpful phrase. I don't know, helpful phrase. But that's the one everybody uses, But that's the one everybody uses, But that's the one everybody uses, biblical grounds for divorce. Yeah, biblical grounds for divorce. Yeah, biblical grounds for divorce. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think it's absolutely. Well, I think it's absolutely. Well, I think it's important, let's go all the way back to important, let's go all the way back to important, let's go all the way back to Exodus and set some context that not Exodus and set some context that not Exodus and set some context that not only was important for the Old only was important for the Old only was important for the Old Testament, but it was important when we Testament, but it was important when we Testament, but it was important when we read verses about um divorce in the New read verses about um divorce in the New read verses about um divorce in the New Testament as well because these verses Testament as well because these verses Testament as well because these verses in Exodus and Deuteronomy, the early in Exodus and Deuteronomy, the early in Exodus and Deuteronomy, the early mentions of divorce are setting some mentions of divorce are setting some mentions of divorce are setting some context that the people would have context that the people would have context that the people would have understood. They had a very intimate understood. They had a very intimate understood. They had a very intimate knowledge of these books of the Bible.

knowledge of these books of the Bible. knowledge of these books of the Bible. So they would have very much understood So they would have very much understood So they would have very much understood this and carried it into this and carried it into this and carried it into who Jesus was talking to. They would who Jesus was talking to. They would who Jesus was talking to. They would have known this. It was passed down have known this. It was passed down have known this. It was passed down generation to generation. So one of the generation to generation. So one of the generation to generation. So one of the important passages that Joel and I important passages that Joel and I important passages that Joel and I looked at is Exodus 21 and in there you looked at is Exodus 21 and in there you looked at is Exodus 21 and in there you find signs of neglect. And there's three find signs of neglect. And there's three find signs of neglect. And there's three signs of neglect that you can very signs of neglect that you can very signs of neglect that you can very clearly see in Exodus 21. It's material clearly see in Exodus 21. It's material clearly see in Exodus 21. It's material neglect, withholding food, clothing, neglect, withholding food, clothing, neglect, withholding food, clothing, shelter. Really important. You have shelter. Really important. You have shelter. Really important. You have emotional neglect, which is withholding emotional neglect, which is withholding emotional neglect, which is withholding conjugal rights and any type of cruelty conjugal rights and any type of cruelty conjugal rights and any type of cruelty or humiliation. And because we're in a or humiliation. And because we're in a or humiliation. And because we're in a patriarchal society at this point, it's patriarchal society at this point, it's patriarchal society at this point, it's usually the man inflicting this on the usually the man inflicting this on the usually the man inflicting this on the woman, okay? woman, okay? woman, okay? Then you also have physical neglect and Then you also have physical neglect and Then you also have physical neglect and that could be unfaithfulness, that could that could be unfaithfulness, that could that could be unfaithfulness, that could be adultery, that could be physical be adultery, that could be physical be adultery, that could be physical abuse. So you have all three of these abuse. So you have all three of these abuse. So you have all three of these three of these three buckets. You've got three of these three buckets. You've got three of these three buckets. You've got the material neglect, emotional neglect, the material neglect, emotional neglect, the material neglect, emotional neglect, physical neglect. And the rabbis would physical neglect. And the rabbis would physical neglect. And the rabbis would have understood that it is really have understood that it is really have understood that it is really important to go and try to work on this important to go and try to work on this important to go and try to work on this marriage. They they would have tried to marriage. They they would have tried to marriage. They they would have tried to establish better rhythms and patterns establish better rhythms and patterns establish better rhythms and patterns and and dynamics within that marriage.

and and dynamics within that marriage. and and dynamics within that marriage. But if the man was unwilling and But if the man was unwilling and But if the man was unwilling and hardened his heart and absolutely they hardened his heart and absolutely they hardened his heart and absolutely they would they were continuing these would they were continuing these would they were continuing these patterns of neglect, the certificate of patterns of neglect, the certificate of patterns of neglect, the certificate of divorce was there to protect the woman. divorce was there to protect the woman. divorce was there to protect the woman. So the certificate of divorce, the So the certificate of divorce, the So the certificate of divorce, the rabbis, if the man had a hard heart and rabbis, if the man had a hard heart and rabbis, if the man had a hard heart and he was wanting to toss the woman aside, he was wanting to toss the woman aside, he was wanting to toss the woman aside, see, this was very, very problematic for see, this was very, very problematic for see, this was very, very problematic for a woman. If she did not have a a woman. If she did not have a a woman. If she did not have a certificate of divorce, then most times certificate of divorce, then most times certificate of divorce, then most times she would have such shame brought on her she would have such shame brought on her she would have such shame brought on her because she didn't have the certificate because she didn't have the certificate because she didn't have the certificate of divorce, then her family would reject of divorce, then her family would reject of divorce, then her family would reject her and she would not get the dowry to her and she would not get the dowry to her and she would not get the dowry to have financial provision. So basically, have financial provision. So basically, have financial provision. So basically, if a man casts a woman if a man casts a woman if a man casts a woman aside, she has no family to go to, she aside, she has no family to go to, she aside, she has no family to go to, she has no financial provision, she would be has no financial provision, she would be has no financial provision, she would be completely destitute and many of these completely destitute and many of these completely destitute and many of these women would have to turn to prostitution women would have to turn to prostitution women would have to turn to prostitution to even survive. How horrible, right? So to even survive. How horrible, right? So to even survive. How horrible, right? So the rabbi would go and instruct the man, the rabbi would go and instruct the man, the rabbi would go and instruct the man, if you're unwilling to do this, then you if you're unwilling to do this, then you if you're unwilling to do this, then you must give your wife a certificate of must give your wife a certificate of must give your wife a certificate of divorce. You must give her the financial divorce. You must give her the financial divorce. You must give her the financial provision of the dowry so that she can provision of the dowry so that she can provision of the dowry so that she can physically sustain herself. And with physically sustain herself. And with physically sustain herself. And with that certificate of divorce, chances are that certificate of divorce, chances are that certificate of divorce, chances are her family would welcome her back in and her family would welcome her back in and her family would welcome her back in and she would have permission to go on and she would have permission to go on and she would have permission to go on and live, you know, a life. And I think, you live, you know, a life. And I think, you live, you know, a life. And I think, you know, when we when we say divorce, we know, when we when we say divorce, we know, when we when we say divorce, we think of it like this horrible evil think of it like this horrible evil think of it like this horrible evil thing. And look, it is awful. It is thing. And look, it is awful. It is thing. And look, it is awful. It is horrible and evil what divorce does for

horrible and evil what divorce does for horrible and evil what divorce does for two people. I agree I'm not pro-divorce two people. I agree I'm not pro-divorce two people. I agree I'm not pro-divorce at all. at all. at all. But I do think it's important to go But I do think it's important to go But I do think it's important to go back, why were these certificates of back, why were these certificates of back, why were these certificates of divorce issued in the first place? It's divorce issued in the first place? It's divorce issued in the first place? It's to protect one spouse from utterly to protect one spouse from utterly to protect one spouse from utterly destroying the other spouse. How does destroying the other spouse. How does destroying the other spouse. How does that reconcile and this isn't like the that reconcile and this isn't like the that reconcile and this isn't like the the the theology podcast, but I'm just the the theology podcast, but I'm just the the theology podcast, but I'm just curious cuz I imagine most people curious cuz I imagine most people curious cuz I imagine most people listening are like, well, didn't Jesus listening are like, well, didn't Jesus listening are like, well, didn't Jesus address that in the gospels where he address that in the gospels where he address that in the gospels where he said Moses allowed you to have a said Moses allowed you to have a said Moses allowed you to have a certificate of divorce because your certificate of divorce because your certificate of divorce because your hearts were hard, but I say to you and hearts were hard, but I say to you and hearts were hard, but I say to you and then he kind of gave his take. How does then he kind of gave his take. How does then he kind of gave his take. How does that reconcile with Jesus' teaching on that reconcile with Jesus' teaching on that reconcile with Jesus' teaching on the issue, Lisa? the issue, Lisa? the issue, Lisa? >> Well, Jesus would have understood and >> Well, Jesus would have understood and >> Well, Jesus would have understood and incorporated these knowns. Like, for incorporated these knowns. Like, for incorporated these knowns. Like, for example, Joel does this great exercise example, Joel does this great exercise example, Joel does this great exercise that that that I live in Jacksonville now and like I live in Jacksonville now and like I live in Jacksonville now and like Ponte Vedra Beach, but part of Ponte Vedra Beach, but part of Ponte Vedra Beach, but part of Jacksonville, okay? And I live here Jacksonville, okay? And I live here Jacksonville, okay? And I live here part-time, part-time in Charlotte. part-time, part-time in Charlotte. part-time, part-time in Charlotte. If you're in Jacksonville during If you're in Jacksonville during If you're in Jacksonville during football season and someone says, "How football season and someone says, "How football season and someone says, "How are the Jags doing?"

are the Jags doing?" are the Jags doing?" right? right? right? I am thinking Jags are the Jacksonville I am thinking Jags are the Jacksonville I am thinking Jags are the Jacksonville Jaguars football team. Because I have Jaguars football team. Because I have Jaguars football team. Because I have the context. I live in a place where I the context. I live in a place where I the context. I live in a place where I have that understanding. I'm not have that understanding. I'm not have that understanding. I'm not thinking about the sports car thinking about the sports car thinking about the sports car called a Jaguar. I'm not thinking about called a Jaguar. I'm not thinking about called a Jaguar. I'm not thinking about the animal like in the wild, Jaguar, the animal like in the wild, Jaguar, the animal like in the wild, Jaguar, right? I'm thinking Jags football team right? I'm thinking Jags football team right? I'm thinking Jags football team because I live here and I have that because I live here and I have that because I live here and I have that context. So the picture that immediately context. So the picture that immediately context. So the picture that immediately comes up is the picture of the football comes up is the picture of the football comes up is the picture of the football team. It's in the same way that when team. It's in the same way that when team. It's in the same way that when Jesus was speaking that the picture that Jesus was speaking that the picture that Jesus was speaking that the picture that would have come in people's minds, they would have come in people's minds, they would have come in people's minds, they would have had a cultural context to would have had a cultural context to would have had a cultural context to that. They would have known that there's that. They would have known that there's that. They would have known that there's also provision for material neglect, also provision for material neglect, also provision for material neglect, emotional neglect, physical neglect. It emotional neglect, physical neglect. It emotional neglect, physical neglect. It would it all came together. So I'd love would it all came together. So I'd love would it all came together. So I'd love for you when you have Joel on your for you when you have Joel on your for you when you have Joel on your podcast getting him to podcast getting him to podcast getting him to dig into this even further because, you dig into this even further because, you dig into this even further because, you know, I think it's really important for know, I think it's really important for know, I think it's really important for us not just to take one part of us not just to take one part of us not just to take one part of scripture without combining it with all scripture without combining it with all scripture without combining it with all the proper context so that we have a the proper context so that we have a the proper context so that we have a really good understanding. And again, I really good understanding. And again, I really good understanding. And again, I say all of this to say, say all of this to say, say all of this to say, I am not pro-divorce, you know?

I am not pro-divorce, you know? I am not pro-divorce, you know? I'm not. How do you think we became so I'm not. How do you think we became so I'm not. How do you think we became so narrow in our understanding of divorce narrow in our understanding of divorce narrow in our understanding of divorce in the church? I think divorce is very in the church? I think divorce is very in the church? I think divorce is very scary, you know? And I think in an scary, you know? And I think in an scary, you know? And I think in an effort, a good effort to protect effort, a good effort to protect effort, a good effort to protect marriage, I think we we needed boxes to marriage, I think we we needed boxes to marriage, I think we we needed boxes to put certain things in and it's easier put certain things in and it's easier put certain things in and it's easier just to say no divorce for any reason. just to say no divorce for any reason. just to say no divorce for any reason. God hates divorce. It's just it's much God hates divorce. It's just it's much God hates divorce. It's just it's much more convenient to do that and I think more convenient to do that and I think more convenient to do that and I think for a lot of people for a lot of people for a lot of people we we hear divorce and we think, "Oh, we we hear divorce and we think, "Oh, we we hear divorce and we think, "Oh, somebody's taking the easy way out." And somebody's taking the easy way out." And somebody's taking the easy way out." And that may be true in some cases, but that may be true in some cases, but that may be true in some cases, but that's not true in every case. And we've that's not true in every case. And we've that's not true in every case. And we've got to have provision for women who are got to have provision for women who are got to have provision for women who are inside of marriage that are being inside of marriage that are being inside of marriage that are being completely destroyed and they go to completely destroyed and they go to completely destroyed and they go to somebody that they trust, another somebody that they trust, another somebody that they trust, another Christian, and they say like, "I'm Christian, and they say like, "I'm Christian, and they say like, "I'm suffering here." You know, I had a suffering here." You know, I had a suffering here." You know, I had a friend who was suffering severe sexual friend who was suffering severe sexual friend who was suffering severe sexual abuse in her marriage. Her husband had abuse in her marriage. Her husband had abuse in her marriage. Her husband had not cheated on her. Severe verbal abuse.

not cheated on her. Severe verbal abuse. not cheated on her. Severe verbal abuse. And when she finally said, "Enough is And when she finally said, "Enough is And when she finally said, "Enough is enough. Like, I am not going to survive enough. Like, I am not going to survive enough. Like, I am not going to survive this." I mean, she had developed this." I mean, she had developed this." I mean, she had developed fibromyalgia. She has so many health fibromyalgia. She has so many health fibromyalgia. She has so many health problems. I mean, it was taking a severe problems. I mean, it was taking a severe problems. I mean, it was taking a severe toll. toll. toll. And she was years she endured sexual And she was years she endured sexual And she was years she endured sexual abuse, verbal abuse. I mean, it was a abuse, verbal abuse. I mean, it was a abuse, verbal abuse. I mean, it was a terribly destructive situation. terribly destructive situation. terribly destructive situation. And she finally confided in another And she finally confided in another And she finally confided in another Christian. Christian. Christian. And they said three words to her, "Shame And they said three words to her, "Shame And they said three words to her, "Shame on you." Never addressing Never addressing the husband's bad behavior, but only the husband's bad behavior, but only the husband's bad behavior, but only putting shame on her for finally drawing putting shame on her for finally drawing putting shame on her for finally drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Enough a line in the sand and saying, "Enough a line in the sand and saying, "Enough is enough." So, another line that Joel is enough." So, another line that Joel is enough." So, another line that Joel says that I think is really important is says that I think is really important is says that I think is really important is a a theology that is unlivable is a a theology that is unlivable is a a theology that is unlivable is utterly unhelpful. And that doesn't mean utterly unhelpful. And that doesn't mean utterly unhelpful. And that doesn't mean we make exceptions to God's word, but it we make exceptions to God's word, but it we make exceptions to God's word, but it does mean that we remember the does mean that we remember the does mean that we remember the tenderness by which Jesus handled tenderness by which Jesus handled tenderness by which Jesus handled someone who is being abused and someone who is being abused and someone who is being abused and marginalized in society. And I think marginalized in society. And I think marginalized in society. And I think it's just really important that we keep it's just really important that we keep it's just really important that we keep the humanity inside some of our the humanity inside some of our the humanity inside some of our teaching, you know? And it's not that we teaching, you know? And it's not that we teaching, you know? And it's not that we change the scriptures, but we have a change the scriptures, but we have a change the scriptures, but we have a better understanding of scriptures so better understanding of scriptures so better understanding of scriptures so that we don't weaponize scriptures that we don't weaponize scriptures that we don't weaponize scriptures against already really hurting people.

against already really hurting people. against already really hurting people. Well, I think that's the tension, right? Well, I think that's the tension, right? Well, I think that's the tension, right? One of my questions for you was, how do One of my questions for you was, how do One of my questions for you was, how do we know this isn't eisegesis? Exegesis we know this isn't eisegesis? Exegesis we know this isn't eisegesis? Exegesis is when we draw the meaning out of the is when we draw the meaning out of the is when we draw the meaning out of the text. Eisegesis is when, as you know, text. Eisegesis is when, as you know, text. Eisegesis is when, as you know, I don't need to tell you, you know, I don't need to tell you, you know, I don't need to tell you, you know, where we import it. How do we know where where we import it. How do we know where where we import it. How do we know where just cuz I've seen this happen with just cuz I've seen this happen with just cuz I've seen this happen with sexuality, I've seen this happen with so sexuality, I've seen this happen with so sexuality, I've seen this happen with so many different subjects where, "Oh, this many different subjects where, "Oh, this many different subjects where, "Oh, this is my life situation. Therefore, I'm is my life situation. Therefore, I'm is my life situation. Therefore, I'm going back and I'm rereading the text going back and I'm rereading the text going back and I'm rereading the text and I'm seeing it completely and I'm seeing it completely and I'm seeing it completely differently." How do we make sure cuz differently." How do we make sure cuz differently." How do we make sure cuz that that that isn't what's happening in that that that isn't what's happening in that that that isn't what's happening in a case like this? a case like this? a case like this? Absolutely. Well, I think that's why we Absolutely. Well, I think that's why we Absolutely. Well, I think that's why we did the hard work of doing the biblical did the hard work of doing the biblical did the hard work of doing the biblical theology. We don't cherry-pick these theology. We don't cherry-pick these theology. We don't cherry-pick these verses, but but with Joel's help, we we verses, but but with Joel's help, we we verses, but but with Joel's help, we we took the law first mention. We go back took the law first mention. We go back took the law first mention. We go back to the first time it's mentioned, the to the first time it's mentioned, the to the first time it's mentioned, the first time it's pictured, or early first time it's pictured, or early first time it's pictured, or early mention, early pictures of this word mention, early pictures of this word mention, early pictures of this word divorce. And we use that to help set the divorce. And we use that to help set the divorce. And we use that to help set the context so that it's a biblical context so that it's a biblical context so that it's a biblical theology. We trace this through the theology. We trace this through the theology. We trace this through the scriptures so that we're not just scriptures so that we're not just scriptures so that we're not just hand-picking certain things out of hand-picking certain things out of hand-picking certain things out of context and out of a time period, but we context and out of a time period, but we context and out of a time period, but we keep it in the context of the full keep it in the context of the full keep it in the context of the full biblical theology. And I'm so grateful biblical theology. And I'm so grateful biblical theology. And I'm so grateful that Joel has the training and the that Joel has the training and the that Joel has the training and the ability to be able to do that. And so, ability to be able to do that. And so, ability to be able to do that. And so, you know, look, you know, look, you know, look, I don't expect anyone to sit down and I don't expect anyone to sit down and I don't expect anyone to sit down and spend hours and hours and hours and spend hours and hours and hours and spend hours and hours and hours and hours doing the biblical theology of hours doing the biblical theology of hours doing the biblical theology of divorce. That's why I'm grateful that divorce. That's why I'm grateful that divorce. That's why I'm grateful that this book, Surviving an Unwanted this book, Surviving an Unwanted this book, Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, will help you do that. And then Divorce, will help you do that. And then Divorce, will help you do that. And then if you want to really nerd out and do if you want to really nerd out and do if you want to really nerd out and do further study, there's tons of footnotes

further study, there's tons of footnotes further study, there's tons of footnotes that you can follow to do your own deep that you can follow to do your own deep that you can follow to do your own deep study on this. And also, Carrie, you study on this. And also, Carrie, you study on this. And also, Carrie, you know, I want to fully acknowledge I'm know, I want to fully acknowledge I'm know, I want to fully acknowledge I'm not telling people what to think. I just not telling people what to think. I just not telling people what to think. I just want to give people a lot to think want to give people a lot to think want to give people a lot to think about. about. about. No, that that's fair. That's fair. How No, that that's fair. That's fair. How No, that that's fair. That's fair. How would for people listening right now would for people listening right now would for people listening right now because because because my guess is a meaningful percentage of my guess is a meaningful percentage of my guess is a meaningful percentage of people listening to this, particularly people listening to this, particularly people listening to this, particularly by the title because they maybe they by the title because they maybe they by the title because they maybe they don't listen to the podcast. They just don't listen to the podcast. They just don't listen to the podcast. They just saw the subject matter. It's like, saw the subject matter. It's like, saw the subject matter. It's like, "Click, I'm going to watch, I'm going to "Click, I'm going to watch, I'm going to "Click, I'm going to watch, I'm going to listen." listen." listen." They're like, "Okay, where am I on this They're like, "Okay, where am I on this They're like, "Okay, where am I on this line? I'm a Christian. We were committed line? I'm a Christian. We were committed line? I'm a Christian. We were committed to each other for life 5 years ago, 20 to each other for life 5 years ago, 20 to each other for life 5 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago when we got years ago, 30 years ago when we got years ago, 30 years ago when we got married. It's not going well. married. It's not going well. married. It's not going well. Um maybe they had a view that the Um maybe they had a view that the Um maybe they had a view that the biblical line for divorce was adultery biblical line for divorce was adultery biblical line for divorce was adultery and adultery hasn't happened. and adultery hasn't happened. and adultery hasn't happened. But it's what was it? It was material, But it's what was it? It was material, But it's what was it? It was material, it was it was it was Yes, it was emotional Yes, it was emotional Yes, it was emotional >> emotional and physical. >> emotional and physical. >> emotional and physical. Mhm. So, in your mind, and I know every Mhm. So, in your mind, and I know every Mhm. So, in your mind, and I know every case is different.

case is different. case is different. Okay? Every case is different. Please go Okay? Every case is different. Please go Okay? Every case is different. Please go sit down with somebody who knows you, sit down with somebody who knows you, sit down with somebody who knows you, knows your situation, have a knows your situation, have a knows your situation, have a conversation, sit down with a conversation, sit down with a conversation, sit down with a professional. But where is the line for professional. But where is the line for professional. But where is the line for like, "Oh, this probably this marriage like, "Oh, this probably this marriage like, "Oh, this probably this marriage needs to end." Where has that Where does needs to end." Where has that Where does needs to end." Where has that Where does that now live in your mind, Lisa? that now live in your mind, Lisa? that now live in your mind, Lisa? You know, Carrie, I think it it this is You know, Carrie, I think it it this is You know, Carrie, I think it it this is meant to be helpful, but not meant to be helpful, but not meant to be helpful, but not prescriptive. You know, every single prescriptive. You know, every single prescriptive. You know, every single dynamic is so different. And dynamic is so different. And dynamic is so different. And I I like what Jim did in his practice. I I like what Jim did in his practice. I I like what Jim did in his practice. Jim never said, "Lisa, it's time to get Jim never said, "Lisa, it's time to get Jim never said, "Lisa, it's time to get a divorce." So, you were never counseled a divorce." So, you were never counseled a divorce." So, you were never counseled that. that. that. Nope, he never ever said, "Lisa, Nope, he never ever said, "Lisa, Nope, he never ever said, "Lisa, you need to get a divorce." you need to get a divorce." you need to get a divorce." What Jim did is provide the incubator of What Jim did is provide the incubator of What Jim did is provide the incubator of wisdom so that I could make an informed wisdom so that I could make an informed wisdom so that I could make an informed decision. decision. decision. And I just simply I'm never going to be And I just simply I'm never going to be And I just simply I'm never going to be I'm I'm never going to be the one to go, I'm I'm never going to be the one to go, I'm I'm never going to be the one to go, "Oh, okay, divorce, no divorce, divorce, "Oh, okay, divorce, no divorce, divorce, "Oh, okay, divorce, no divorce, divorce, no divorce." Absolutely not, you know?

no divorce." Absolutely not, you know? no divorce." Absolutely not, you know? This is This is This is This is such a weighty This is such a weighty This is such a weighty awful discussion. I I wish we didn't awful discussion. I I wish we didn't awful discussion. I I wish we didn't even have to discuss this. I just wish, even have to discuss this. I just wish, even have to discuss this. I just wish, you know, everyone honored God's design you know, everyone honored God's design you know, everyone honored God's design for marriage. That's what I wish, you for marriage. That's what I wish, you for marriage. That's what I wish, you know? Yeah. know? Yeah. know? Yeah. >> But I do want to provide for people >> But I do want to provide for people >> But I do want to provide for people the right information so that they can the right information so that they can the right information so that they can have the emotional fortitude and have the emotional fortitude and have the emotional fortitude and biblical wisdom to go before the Lord biblical wisdom to go before the Lord biblical wisdom to go before the Lord and to go before otherwise counsel and and to go before otherwise counsel and and to go before otherwise counsel and to sit with themselves and incorporate to sit with themselves and incorporate to sit with themselves and incorporate all of this together and let the Lord all of this together and let the Lord all of this together and let the Lord lead you, you know? lead you, you know? lead you, you know? Um Um Um because because because there's there's no good choice here. No. there's there's no good choice here. No. there's there's no good choice here. No. No. It's It's not like you get a divorce No. It's It's not like you get a divorce No. It's It's not like you get a divorce and then, you know, everything is roses and then, you know, everything is roses and then, you know, everything is roses and rainbows. It's just not. And I want and rainbows. It's just not. And I want and rainbows. It's just not. And I want to be really, really honest about that. to be really, really honest about that. to be really, really honest about that. If I could rewrite my story, Carrie, If I could rewrite my story, Carrie, If I could rewrite my story, Carrie, Mhm. I wish divorce was still I wish it Mhm. I wish divorce was still I wish it Mhm. I wish divorce was still I wish it was never, ever, ever part of my story. was never, ever, ever part of my story. was never, ever, ever part of my story. Sure. Sure. Sure. >> I would not wish this on my worst enemy.

>> I would not wish this on my worst enemy. >> I would not wish this on my worst enemy. I just wouldn't. It is It is definitely I just wouldn't. It is It is definitely I just wouldn't. It is It is definitely the hardest, most hurtful, the hardest, most hurtful, the hardest, most hurtful, most horrifying thing that I've ever, most horrifying thing that I've ever, most horrifying thing that I've ever, ever been through. ever been through. ever been through. You know, when when God puts two people You know, when when God puts two people You know, when when God puts two people together, you know, and and you come together, you know, and and you come together, you know, and and you come together in a marriage, the two become together in a marriage, the two become together in a marriage, the two become one. And the ripping apart of that is one. And the ripping apart of that is one. And the ripping apart of that is devastating. Mhm. It's devastating. devastating. Mhm. It's devastating. devastating. Mhm. It's devastating. So, So, So, >> talked about it before on this podcast, >> talked about it before on this podcast, >> talked about it before on this podcast, but I mean, when you look at the but I mean, when you look at the but I mean, when you look at the emotional emotional emotional turmoil that you were going through turmoil that you were going through turmoil that you were going through trying to, you know, come to terms with trying to, you know, come to terms with trying to, you know, come to terms with things, fix things, repair the marriage. things, fix things, repair the marriage. things, fix things, repair the marriage. There was, you mentioned somebody you There was, you mentioned somebody you There was, you mentioned somebody you know had fibromyalgia, you know, know had fibromyalgia, you know, know had fibromyalgia, you know, developed that as a result of that. And developed that as a result of that. And developed that as a result of that. And the mind-body connection is very clear. the mind-body connection is very clear. the mind-body connection is very clear. Uh Your doctor wanted to know what, Uh Your doctor wanted to know what, Uh Your doctor wanted to know what, whether you'd been in a car accident or whether you'd been in a car accident or whether you'd been in a car accident or something like that or had some kind of something like that or had some kind of something like that or had some kind of physical trauma? physical trauma? physical trauma? Yeah, so I found out about my husband's Yeah, so I found out about my husband's Yeah, so I found out about my husband's infidelity in February of 2016.

infidelity in February of 2016. infidelity in February of 2016. And And And by June of that year, by June of that year, by June of that year, um you know, there were so many ups and um you know, there were so many ups and um you know, there were so many ups and downs. He wanted me, he didn't want me. downs. He wanted me, he didn't want me. downs. He wanted me, he didn't want me. He wanted me, he didn't want me. He was He wanted me, he didn't want me. He was He wanted me, he didn't want me. He was with someone else, he wasn't with with someone else, he wasn't with with someone else, he wasn't with someone else. He was with someone else, someone else. He was with someone else, someone else. He was with someone else, he wasn't with someone else, you know? he wasn't with someone else, you know? he wasn't with someone else, you know? That takes a huge toll. And by June of That takes a huge toll. And by June of That takes a huge toll. And by June of that year, my colon ripped away from the that year, my colon ripped away from the that year, my colon ripped away from the abdominal wall, twisted around itself, abdominal wall, twisted around itself, abdominal wall, twisted around itself, cut the blood flow off inside of me. And cut the blood flow off inside of me. And cut the blood flow off inside of me. And um they had to rush me into emergency um they had to rush me into emergency um they had to rush me into emergency surgery. And what my doctor removed from surgery. And what my doctor removed from surgery. And what my doctor removed from the inside of me, he had to hold with the inside of me, he had to hold with the inside of me, he had to hold with both hands. Like your colon is supposed both hands. Like your colon is supposed both hands. Like your colon is supposed to be like a small tube. And mine had to be like a small tube. And mine had to be like a small tube. And mine had blown up to the size of almost like an blown up to the size of almost like an blown up to the size of almost like an infant. And um he took a picture in that infant. And um he took a picture in that infant. And um he took a picture in that surgery. surgery. surgery. And he gave me that picture. And he And he gave me that picture. And he And he gave me that picture. And he said, "I don't know what you're going said, "I don't know what you're going said, "I don't know what you're going through, through, through, but I want you to see but I want you to see but I want you to see what it's costing you." Boy. I want you what it's costing you." Boy. I want you what it's costing you." Boy. I want you to see the physical ramifications of to see the physical ramifications of to see the physical ramifications of whatever it is that you're facing.

whatever it is that you're facing. whatever it is that you're facing. And I took that picture to my counselor, And I took that picture to my counselor, And I took that picture to my counselor, Jim Krass. Jim Krass. Jim Krass. And I remember Jim saying, "I've never And I remember Jim saying, "I've never And I remember Jim saying, "I've never seen with my own eyes seen with my own eyes seen with my own eyes the cost of emotional abuse, but I see the cost of emotional abuse, but I see the cost of emotional abuse, but I see it now." Mhm. it now." Mhm. it now." Mhm. So, I think it's really important Do we So, I think it's really important Do we So, I think it's really important Do we want to give people quick, easy outs in want to give people quick, easy outs in want to give people quick, easy outs in their marriage? Do we want to give their marriage? Do we want to give their marriage? Do we want to give people permission to get a marr- to like people permission to get a marr- to like people permission to get a marr- to like quick quick, easy outs and like give quick quick, easy outs and like give quick quick, easy outs and like give people permission to easily to get a people permission to easily to get a people permission to easily to get a divorce? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. divorce? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. divorce? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Marriage is precious and it needs to be Marriage is precious and it needs to be Marriage is precious and it needs to be fought for. I will say it over and over fought for. I will say it over and over fought for. I will say it over and over and over. and over. and over. But But But for someone to stand before me for someone to stand before me for someone to stand before me and say, and say, and say, "Yeah, Lisa, but did he hit you?" "Yeah, Lisa, but did he hit you?" "Yeah, Lisa, but did he hit you?" You know, it it kind of You know, it it kind of You know, it it kind of made me go, "Well, do you want to see my made me go, "Well, do you want to see my made me go, "Well, do you want to see my scar where I'm cut hip to hip and all scar where I'm cut hip to hip and all scar where I'm cut hip to hip and all the way up my middle? Like, is that good the way up my middle? Like, is that good the way up my middle? Like, is that good enough for you?" enough for you?" enough for you?" And so, I just think we have to be And so, I just think we have to be And so, I just think we have to be careful to not minimize careful to not minimize careful to not minimize what is happening to people who, in my what is happening to people who, in my what is happening to people who, in my case, I wanted to save my marriage more case, I wanted to save my marriage more case, I wanted to save my marriage more than anything.

than anything. than anything. And I almost died trying to. I have so many places I'd I'd I'd I'd I have so many places I'd I'd I'd I'd love to to go. So, I'm just trying to love to to go. So, I'm just trying to love to to go. So, I'm just trying to focus. Well, focus. Well, focus. Well, Lisa, thanks for just being so Lisa, thanks for just being so Lisa, thanks for just being so transparent. And I'm so sorry for the transparent. And I'm so sorry for the transparent. And I'm so sorry for the pain pain pain that you and your whole family have been that you and your whole family have been that you and your whole family have been through. I mean, this is this is through. I mean, this is this is through. I mean, this is this is devastating. devastating. devastating. What were the first signs to you that What were the first signs to you that What were the first signs to you that something was wrong in your marriage. something was wrong in your marriage. something was wrong in your marriage. I don't know the answer to that I don't know the answer to that I don't know the answer to that question. question. question. Because Because Because you know, I you know, I you know, I I was very much of the mentality that I I was very much of the mentality that I I was very much of the mentality that I needed to speak life over my husband. I needed to speak life over my husband. I needed to speak life over my husband. I needed to honor my husband and those are needed to honor my husband and those are needed to honor my husband and those are great things. They're biblical great things. They're biblical great things. They're biblical things, right? things, right? things, right? But I think also what was happening in But I think also what was happening in But I think also what was happening in my mind is I minimized my mind is I minimized my mind is I minimized things that were very concerning and I things that were very concerning and I things that were very concerning and I maximized maximized maximized the scraps of love that I was getting the scraps of love that I was getting the scraps of love that I was getting because trauma is not just what happens because trauma is not just what happens because trauma is not just what happens to you. It's the story you tell yourself to you. It's the story you tell yourself to you. It's the story you tell yourself because of what happens to you. And the because of what happens to you. And the because of what happens to you. And the story I wanted to tell myself is that story I wanted to tell myself is that story I wanted to tell myself is that you know, my marriage is going to stay you know, my marriage is going to stay you know, my marriage is going to stay together.

together. together. That's the story I wanted to tell That's the story I wanted to tell That's the story I wanted to tell myself. myself. myself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And so it's really hard for me to go And so it's really hard for me to go And so it's really hard for me to go back and autopsy what were some of the back and autopsy what were some of the back and autopsy what were some of the first signs. first signs. first signs. I'm sure there were signs, but I also I'm sure there were signs, but I also I'm sure there were signs, but I also think think think um when you're married for a long time, um when you're married for a long time, um when you're married for a long time, you give your spouse the benefit of of you give your spouse the benefit of of you give your spouse the benefit of of the doubt and that's a good thing until the doubt and that's a good thing until the doubt and that's a good thing until it's not. it's not. it's not. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You know, one of the things I've heard You know, one of the things I've heard You know, one of the things I've heard in marriage and I'm I wonder whether you in marriage and I'm I wonder whether you in marriage and I'm I wonder whether you felt this temptation, but you know, you felt this temptation, but you know, you felt this temptation, but you know, you do lead Proverbs 31 and I've heard well, do lead Proverbs 31 and I've heard well, do lead Proverbs 31 and I've heard well, we have to stay together for the sake of we have to stay together for the sake of we have to stay together for the sake of the ministry. the ministry. the ministry. It's almost like we have to stay It's almost like we have to stay It's almost like we have to stay together for the sake of the kids, but together for the sake of the kids, but together for the sake of the kids, but when you're in ministry, there's such a when you're in ministry, there's such a when you're in ministry, there's such a unique pressure unique pressure unique pressure to being a senior pastor, being, you to being a senior pastor, being, you to being a senior pastor, being, you know, the head of an organization like know, the head of an organization like know, the head of an organization like Proverbs 31 Proverbs 31 Proverbs 31 because you don't just let down because you don't just let down because you don't just let down yourself, your family, yourself, your family, yourself, your family, you let down thousands, tens of you let down thousands, tens of you let down thousands, tens of thousands, in your case, millions of thousands, in your case, millions of thousands, in your case, millions of people people people who have looked to you for guidance who have looked to you for guidance who have looked to you for guidance about keeping the family together.

about keeping the family together. about keeping the family together. And now all of a sudden you're in the And now all of a sudden you're in the And now all of a sudden you're in the middle of it. What would you say middle of it. What would you say middle of it. What would you say about that pressure to want to make this about that pressure to want to make this about that pressure to want to make this work for the sake of the ministry? work for the sake of the ministry? work for the sake of the ministry? Yeah, I would say I definitely felt that Yeah, I would say I definitely felt that Yeah, I would say I definitely felt that pressure. pressure. pressure. Um Um Um I didn't feel it I didn't feel it I didn't feel it um um um as much on the ministry side because as much on the ministry side because as much on the ministry side because I didn't even have the emotional I didn't even have the emotional I didn't even have the emotional capacity to like fully understand that. capacity to like fully understand that. capacity to like fully understand that. And it's not that I didn't have the And it's not that I didn't have the And it's not that I didn't have the emotional capacity to understand it. I I emotional capacity to understand it. I I emotional capacity to understand it. I I I was so focused on my kids and that I was so focused on my kids and that I was so focused on my kids and that side of it side of it side of it that that that it's like the Lord's got to take care of it's like the Lord's got to take care of it's like the Lord's got to take care of the ministry because like I'm dealing the ministry because like I'm dealing the ministry because like I'm dealing with a family that's being decimated, with a family that's being decimated, with a family that's being decimated, you know. you know. you know. >> was that deep that you're like whatever >> was that deep that you're like whatever >> was that deep that you're like whatever the consequence I got to focus on my the consequence I got to focus on my the consequence I got to focus on my family. Yeah, yeah. And but yes, Carey, family. Yeah, yeah. And but yes, Carey, family. Yeah, yeah. And but yes, Carey, the the the pressure to the the the pressure to the the the pressure to like like like not go through a divorce. I mean, it was not go through a divorce. I mean, it was not go through a divorce. I mean, it was massive. I mean, the last thing in the massive. I mean, the last thing in the massive. I mean, the last thing in the world I would ever want to do is lead world I would ever want to do is lead world I would ever want to do is lead anyone astray.

anyone astray. anyone astray. And at the same time And at the same time And at the same time I knew I knew I knew like my kids deserve one healthy parent. like my kids deserve one healthy parent. like my kids deserve one healthy parent. And I can't I cannot let the destructive And I can't I cannot let the destructive And I can't I cannot let the destructive behaviors of another person bring both behaviors of another person bring both behaviors of another person bring both of us down because if they do, like the of us down because if they do, like the of us down because if they do, like the suffering of my kids would have been suffering of my kids would have been suffering of my kids would have been massive. And so I had to focus on them massive. And so I had to focus on them massive. And so I had to focus on them first. And did I think I was going to be first. And did I think I was going to be first. And did I think I was going to be kicked out of ministry? 100%. I knew I kicked out of ministry? 100%. I knew I kicked out of ministry? 100%. I knew I would be. would be. would be. >> it was over, just shut the doors, we're >> it was over, just shut the doors, we're >> it was over, just shut the doors, we're done. done. done. >> But you know what? >> But you know what? >> But you know what? At that point it's like God called me to At that point it's like God called me to At that point it's like God called me to this and if he wants me to step away this and if he wants me to step away this and if he wants me to step away from this, I'm willing to be obedient. from this, I'm willing to be obedient. from this, I'm willing to be obedient. Like I can't Like I can't Like I can't like, you know, I didn't like, you know, I didn't like, you know, I didn't I didn't do like I I wasn't smart enough I didn't do like I I wasn't smart enough I didn't do like I I wasn't smart enough to do what's called Proverbs 31 to do what's called Proverbs 31 to do what's called Proverbs 31 Ministries today. Like the Lord really Ministries today. Like the Lord really Ministries today. Like the Lord really he's the one that did this, you know. he's the one that did this, you know. he's the one that did this, you know. >> Sure. Yeah, I get it. I get that. >> Sure. Yeah, I get it. I get that. >> Sure. Yeah, I get it. I get that. Totally. Totally. Totally. >> I felt very confident that if it was >> I felt very confident that if it was >> I felt very confident that if it was time for me to step away, that the Lord time for me to step away, that the Lord time for me to step away, that the Lord would call other people to step right in would call other people to step right in would call other people to step right in and maybe even do a better job leading and maybe even do a better job leading and maybe even do a better job leading than me.

than me. than me. And at that point it's like And at that point it's like And at that point it's like I didn't have a choice. It it wasn't I didn't have a choice. It it wasn't I didn't have a choice. It it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like I could like, you know, it wasn't like I could like, you know, it wasn't like I could stay in the marriage. It the that was stay in the marriage. It the that was stay in the marriage. It the that was um um um at that point when I accepted the very at that point when I accepted the very at that point when I accepted the very harsh reality of the death of my harsh reality of the death of my harsh reality of the death of my marriage, um marriage, um marriage, um there was not a marriage to step into. there was not a marriage to step into. there was not a marriage to step into. It was done. It was gone. And and like It was done. It was gone. And and like It was done. It was gone. And and like I could stay there and want my marriage I could stay there and want my marriage I could stay there and want my marriage like forever and ever and ever and ever, like forever and ever and ever and ever, like forever and ever and ever and ever, but at that point but at that point but at that point there was just one person there, you there was just one person there, you there was just one person there, you know. No, you know what? That's a know. No, you know what? That's a know. No, you know what? That's a And again, thank you for sharing so And again, thank you for sharing so And again, thank you for sharing so transparently. I think that's an transparently. I think that's an transparently. I think that's an important important important distinction, Lisa. Like I would say and distinction, Lisa. Like I would say and distinction, Lisa. Like I would say and I've I've had I've I've had I've I've had I'm trying to think exactly what it was. I'm trying to think exactly what it was. I'm trying to think exactly what it was. I mean, the first question you asked me I mean, the first question you asked me I mean, the first question you asked me when we signed on today was how are you when we signed on today was how are you when we signed on today was how are you doing? How are you feeling? doing? How are you feeling? doing? How are you feeling? You know, I got sick for the first time You know, I got sick for the first time You know, I got sick for the first time in my adult life earlier this year and in my adult life earlier this year and in my adult life earlier this year and if that pain had continued at such a if that pain had continued at such a if that pain had continued at such a deep level, yeah. You're at a point deep level, yeah. You're at a point deep level, yeah. You're at a point where it's like God'll have to be where it's like God'll have to be where it's like God'll have to be responsible for the consequences because responsible for the consequences because responsible for the consequences because this is a really serious thing I'm this is a really serious thing I'm this is a really serious thing I'm dealing with.

dealing with. dealing with. I don't know that our marriage ever I don't know that our marriage ever I don't know that our marriage ever reached the point where I'm like I can't reached the point where I'm like I can't reached the point where I'm like I can't even think about the consequences, even think about the consequences, even think about the consequences, that's up to God. This pain is so that's up to God. This pain is so that's up to God. This pain is so intense because we always had two people intense because we always had two people intense because we always had two people willing to work on it, two broken, willing to work on it, two broken, willing to work on it, two broken, wounded, limping human beings wounded, limping human beings wounded, limping human beings that were like, all right, well, this that were like, all right, well, this that were like, all right, well, this didn't work. What will work? didn't work. What will work? didn't work. What will work? We lent through it together. We lent through it together. We lent through it together. And I think that's an important And I think that's an important And I think that's an important distinctive because I can imagine a distinctive because I can imagine a distinctive because I can imagine a situation which the pain is so intense situation which the pain is so intense situation which the pain is so intense that you're that you're that you're you're like God you just have to be you're like God you just have to be you're like God you just have to be responsible for the outcome of that. And responsible for the outcome of that. And responsible for the outcome of that. And I wonder if that is helpful guidance I wonder if that is helpful guidance I wonder if that is helpful guidance to people like I I know and I I think to people like I I know and I I think to people like I I know and I I think hearing and reading you correctly hearing and reading you correctly hearing and reading you correctly if there's a flicker of hope left for if there's a flicker of hope left for if there's a flicker of hope left for the two of you working through this, the two of you working through this, the two of you working through this, work through it, right? That's where work through it, right? That's where work through it, right? That's where you're going to land on this. you're going to land on this. you're going to land on this. Yeah, and you know, here's here's the Yeah, and you know, here's here's the Yeah, and you know, here's here's the thing, Carey. It all comes down to the thing, Carey. It all comes down to the thing, Carey. It all comes down to the heart. Two humble, repentant hearts.

heart. Two humble, repentant hearts. heart. Two humble, repentant hearts. Yeah. Both willing Yeah. Both willing Yeah. Both willing Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> to prioritize >> to prioritize >> to prioritize the the the love and care of another person. Love is love and care of another person. Love is love and care of another person. Love is seeking the other person's highest good. seeking the other person's highest good. seeking the other person's highest good. If that's the environment, then that's If that's the environment, then that's If that's the environment, then that's good. good. good. But they're working on that. But they're working on that. But they're working on that. Trust Trust is the oxygen of all human Trust Trust is the oxygen of all human Trust Trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. So you starve a relationships. So you starve a relationships. So you starve a relationship of trust and you starve it relationship of trust and you starve it relationship of trust and you starve it to death. And you certainly starve it to to death. And you certainly starve it to to death. And you certainly starve it to vibrancy. And you can't build trust that vibrancy. And you can't build trust that vibrancy. And you can't build trust that keeps getting broken. That's an keeps getting broken. That's an keeps getting broken. That's an impossibility. impossibility. impossibility. And so, you know, is there humility? Is And so, you know, is there humility? Is And so, you know, is there humility? Is there repentance? Is there willingness? there repentance? Is there willingness? there repentance? Is there willingness? Is there trust? Yeah. Is there trust? Yeah. Is there trust? Yeah. >> I think those are some things to look >> I think those are some things to look >> I think those are some things to look for. for. for. You mentioned that you had you know, You mentioned that you had you know, You mentioned that you had you know, obviously you have the reaction of the obviously you have the reaction of the obviously you have the reaction of the world now thanks to social media and you world now thanks to social media and you world now thanks to social media and you let lead a very public let lead a very public let lead a very public ministry, but you also had some friends ministry, but you also had some friends ministry, but you also had some friends who who who you would say were not very helpful. So you would say were not very helpful. So you would say were not very helpful. So for those of us maybe our marriage is for those of us maybe our marriage is for those of us maybe our marriage is okay, but we have friends who are going okay, but we have friends who are going okay, but we have friends who are going through really difficult time or have through really difficult time or have through really difficult time or have gone through divorce.

gone through divorce. gone through divorce. What are some not helpful things that What are some not helpful things that What are some not helpful things that Christians do when their friends are Christians do when their friends are Christians do when their friends are going through divorce? going through divorce? going through divorce? Um one of the statements that was said Um one of the statements that was said Um one of the statements that was said to me to me to me um um um was well, you know, there's always two was well, you know, there's always two was well, you know, there's always two sides to every story. sides to every story. sides to every story. And what I say to that is this is not a And what I say to that is this is not a And what I say to that is this is not a spectator sport. Why are we picking spectator sport. Why are we picking spectator sport. Why are we picking sides? This is a family getting sides? This is a family getting sides? This is a family getting destroyed on the field. Can we not just destroyed on the field. Can we not just destroyed on the field. Can we not just go down and offer help or help as go down and offer help or help as go down and offer help or help as needed? Wow. needed? Wow. needed? Wow. Wow. When you think about online When you think about online I mean, you probably didn't have the I mean, you probably didn't have the I mean, you probably didn't have the bandwidth to even process the comments bandwidth to even process the comments bandwidth to even process the comments that were coming in and I remember your that were coming in and I remember your that were coming in and I remember your very very very honest posts. I think was it 2017 the honest posts. I think was it 2017 the honest posts. I think was it 2017 the first time you kind of named it online first time you kind of named it online first time you kind of named it online and then and then and then there was the renewal of vows and then there was the renewal of vows and then there was the renewal of vows and then that didn't work out and we don't have that didn't work out and we don't have that didn't work out and we don't have to get back into all of that. We talked to get back into all of that. We talked to get back into all of that. We talked about this on this podcast before and about this on this podcast before and about this on this podcast before and you've talked about that elsewhere. you've talked about that elsewhere. you've talked about that elsewhere. But I'm sure over time you still But I'm sure over time you still But I'm sure over time you still probably probably probably get some comments that are unhelpful.

get some comments that are unhelpful. get some comments that are unhelpful. Um Um Um anything you want just because I think anything you want just because I think anything you want just because I think sometimes naming it sometimes naming it sometimes naming it like I could see myself saying something like I could see myself saying something like I could see myself saying something like well, there's always two sides to a like well, there's always two sides to a like well, there's always two sides to a story. Like story. Like story. Like that isn't necessarily malicious. that isn't necessarily malicious. that isn't necessarily malicious. Sometimes it is. But but it is hurtful Sometimes it is. But but it is hurtful Sometimes it is. But but it is hurtful and I think we have to be mindful of the and I think we have to be mindful of the and I think we have to be mindful of the fact that some of the things we say fact that some of the things we say fact that some of the things we say trying to be helpful or rushing forward trying to be helpful or rushing forward trying to be helpful or rushing forward with Christian answers that are easy and with Christian answers that are easy and with Christian answers that are easy and at our fingertips is is not very at our fingertips is is not very at our fingertips is is not very helpful. Um what were some other things helpful. Um what were some other things helpful. Um what were some other things that you see or have felt that were not that you see or have felt that were not that you see or have felt that were not good? good? good? Um when people would try to come up with Um when people would try to come up with Um when people would try to come up with a reason a reason a reason for why this happened. Oh, an for why this happened. Oh, an for why this happened. Oh, an explanation theologically of why God did explanation theologically of why God did explanation theologically of why God did this to you or this to you or this to you or >> a reason. Like I I remember one of my >> a reason. Like I I remember one of my >> a reason. Like I I remember one of my friends said, I think this all happened friends said, I think this all happened friends said, I think this all happened because you travel. because you travel. because you travel. Okay. And you know, because you travel Okay. And you know, because you travel Okay. And you know, because you travel for ministry and I think, okay, you know for ministry and I think, okay, you know for ministry and I think, okay, you know what? That is definitely a theory that what? That is definitely a theory that what? That is definitely a theory that could be examined, but at that point we could be examined, but at that point we could be examined, but at that point we had been in marriage counseling over 75 had been in marriage counseling over 75 had been in marriage counseling over 75 hours.

hours. hours. You know, um since the discovery and my You know, um since the discovery and my You know, um since the discovery and my travel was never mentioned one time. travel was never mentioned one time. travel was never mentioned one time. Mhm. And so, but I think what was Mhm. And so, but I think what was Mhm. And so, but I think what was happening there is that she wanted a happening there is that she wanted a happening there is that she wanted a reason why this happened to me so that reason why this happened to me so that reason why this happened to me so that she could have a way to comfort herself she could have a way to comfort herself she could have a way to comfort herself that because she doesn't travel for that because she doesn't travel for that because she doesn't travel for ministry that her marriage is protected ministry that her marriage is protected ministry that her marriage is protected and so again understandable but and so again understandable but and so again understandable but definitely not helpful. You know it's it's not helpful to try to You know it's it's not helpful to try to autopsy from afar. autopsy from afar. autopsy from afar. You know why You know why You know why a marriage got to the place that it got a marriage got to the place that it got a marriage got to the place that it got you know you know you know and it's it's just and it's it's just and it's it's just it's not helpful if you are not close it's not helpful if you are not close it's not helpful if you are not close enough to that person to see the whites enough to that person to see the whites enough to that person to see the whites of their eyes turn blistering red over of their eyes turn blistering red over of their eyes turn blistering red over and over and over and over. and over and over and over. and over and over and over. Then Then Then I would suggest praying more words over I would suggest praying more words over I would suggest praying more words over that situation that person that marriage that situation that person that marriage that situation that person that marriage pray more words than you ever speak pray more words than you ever speak pray more words than you ever speak words because you know if you really words because you know if you really words because you know if you really want to be utterly helpful then pray want to be utterly helpful then pray want to be utterly helpful then pray genuine honest well-meaning prayers do genuine honest well-meaning prayers do genuine honest well-meaning prayers do that.

that. that. Judgment and prayer are pretty much Judgment and prayer are pretty much Judgment and prayer are pretty much mutually exclusive. mutually exclusive. mutually exclusive. You can't pray for someone and judge You can't pray for someone and judge You can't pray for someone and judge them at the same time. It's very them at the same time. It's very them at the same time. It's very difficult. difficult. difficult. What were some helpful things friends What were some helpful things friends What were some helpful things friends family did? family did? family did? The most helpful thing is when I finally The most helpful thing is when I finally The most helpful thing is when I finally got the courage up to share what I'd got the courage up to share what I'd got the courage up to share what I'd been experiencing behind closed doors been experiencing behind closed doors been experiencing behind closed doors the number one most helpful thing is for the number one most helpful thing is for the number one most helpful thing is for someone to look at me and just say I someone to look at me and just say I someone to look at me and just say I believe you. believe you. believe you. I believe you. I believe you. I believe you. And And And you know I I think sometimes people are you know I I think sometimes people are you know I I think sometimes people are so afraid to do that because I think so afraid to do that because I think so afraid to do that because I think they do have this mindset like there's they do have this mindset like there's they do have this mindset like there's two sides to every story you know and two sides to every story you know and two sides to every story you know and maybe maybe this was justified because maybe maybe this was justified because maybe maybe this was justified because of this and this was justified because of this and this was justified because of this and this was justified because of that and it's like of that and it's like of that and it's like you know I you know I you know I I think that's to protect I think that's to protect I think that's to protect from again people checking out of their from again people checking out of their from again people checking out of their marriages too quickly but look Carrie I marriages too quickly but look Carrie I marriages too quickly but look Carrie I I don't see long lines of women I don't see long lines of women I don't see long lines of women Christian women eager to get out of Christian women eager to get out of Christian women eager to get out of their marriages their marriages their marriages I I do think maybe some maybe they're I I do think maybe some maybe they're I I do think maybe some maybe they're they're out there they're out there they're out there but that's not what I'm seeing. I'm but that's not what I'm seeing. I'm but that's not what I'm seeing. I'm seeing women who are fighting with seeing women who are fighting with seeing women who are fighting with everything they've got everything they've got everything they've got to save their marriages.

to save their marriages. to save their marriages. And so when they're finally courageous And so when they're finally courageous And so when they're finally courageous enough to tell you enough to tell you enough to tell you what they've what they've what they've kept hidden for so long kept hidden for so long kept hidden for so long please dear God just say I believe you. please dear God just say I believe you. please dear God just say I believe you. A final word Lisa for couples that might A final word Lisa for couples that might A final word Lisa for couples that might be in that difficult season my wife and be in that difficult season my wife and be in that difficult season my wife and I went through or are I went through or are I went through or are uncovering some of the things that you uncovering some of the things that you uncovering some of the things that you talked about just a final word maybe you talked about just a final word maybe you talked about just a final word maybe you can make it maybe it's one of can make it maybe it's one of can make it maybe it's one of encouragement maybe it's one of hope encouragement maybe it's one of hope encouragement maybe it's one of hope maybe it's one of advice but maybe it's one of advice but maybe it's one of advice but final word for couples that are not in final word for couples that are not in final word for couples that are not in the best space right now. the best space right now. the best space right now. Well there's always more help and Well there's always more help and Well there's always more help and healing than you've got problems. healing than you've got problems. healing than you've got problems. So again So again So again if your heart stays soft and your if your heart stays soft and your if your heart stays soft and your intentions are pure intentions are pure intentions are pure there is trust there that can be rebuilt there is trust there that can be rebuilt there is trust there that can be rebuilt or that at least there's enough humility or that at least there's enough humility or that at least there's enough humility to start working on rebuilding trust to start working on rebuilding trust to start working on rebuilding trust then then then you know with Jesus there's all things you know with Jesus there's all things you know with Jesus there's all things are possible for sure you know and are possible for sure you know and are possible for sure you know and your marriage is worth fighting for.

your marriage is worth fighting for. your marriage is worth fighting for. But if there is a hardness of heart by But if there is a hardness of heart by But if there is a hardness of heart by one partner one partner one partner that's where things are going to really that's where things are going to really that's where things are going to really unravel and until that changes unravel and until that changes unravel and until that changes you know you know you know anything is possible with God for sure anything is possible with God for sure anything is possible with God for sure but I think humility especially the but I think humility especially the but I think humility especially the person who has caused the person who has caused the person who has caused the the inflicted the pain on the other the inflicted the pain on the other the inflicted the pain on the other person there's got to be humility person there's got to be humility person there's got to be humility there's got to be brokenness there's got there's got to be brokenness there's got there's got to be brokenness there's got to be repentance you know when David to be repentance you know when David to be repentance you know when David cried out in the Psalms cried out in the Psalms cried out in the Psalms and and he he was crying out to the Lord and and he he was crying out to the Lord and and he he was crying out to the Lord like like like like give me like change my heart you like give me like change my heart you like give me like change my heart you know renew me make me steadfast know renew me make me steadfast know renew me make me steadfast David wasn't asking for God to renovate David wasn't asking for God to renovate David wasn't asking for God to renovate his heart David was saying take out my his heart David was saying take out my his heart David was saying take out my old cold hard heart and give me a brand old cold hard heart and give me a brand old cold hard heart and give me a brand new heart. new heart. new heart. I think if someone's crying out that I think if someone's crying out that I think if someone's crying out that prayer there's there's hope. prayer there's there's hope. prayer there's there's hope. Well there's a lot more than we covered Well there's a lot more than we covered Well there's a lot more than we covered in this interview the book is called in this interview the book is called in this interview the book is called surviving an unwanted divorce it's out surviving an unwanted divorce it's out surviving an unwanted divorce it's out everywhere Lisa is there a particular everywhere Lisa is there a particular everywhere Lisa is there a particular website or social profile you want to website or social profile you want to website or social profile you want to direct people to who want to learn more?

direct people to who want to learn more? direct people to who want to learn more? Yeah you can go to proverbs31.org Yeah you can go to proverbs31.org Yeah you can go to proverbs31.org and you can find the book there or you and you can find the book there or you and you can find the book there or you can certainly check out my social media can certainly check out my social media can certainly check out my social media at Lisa TerKeurst you can check out at Lisa TerKeurst you can check out at Lisa TerKeurst you can check out Joel Muddamalle his social media as well Joel Muddamalle his social media as well Joel Muddamalle his social media as well as Jim Cress as well. as Jim Cress as well. as Jim Cress as well. Lisa thank you so much. Lisa thank you so much. Lisa thank you so much. Thank you Carrie.