How Work Can Heal You with Patrick Lencioni

It's like It's like being in the ocean. It's dark. being in the ocean. It's dark. being in the ocean. It's dark. You don't see any lights and you don't know how long you're going and you don't know how long you're going to be out there. Welcome to the Carrie to be out there. Welcome to the Carrie to be out there. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad New Hoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad New Hoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. And as I always you joined us today. And as I always you joined us today. And as I always say, I hope our conversation today helps say, I hope our conversation today helps say, I hope our conversation today helps you thrive in life and leadership. And you thrive in life and leadership. And you thrive in life and leadership. And you know, part of thriving is coming you know, part of thriving is coming you know, part of thriving is coming back from really difficult periods. And back from really difficult periods. And back from really difficult periods. And today, Patrick Lanchion joins us to talk today, Patrick Lanchion joins us to talk today, Patrick Lanchion joins us to talk about something he hasn't written about, about something he hasn't written about, about something he hasn't written about, he hasn't talked about much publicly. He he hasn't talked about much publicly. He he hasn't talked about much publicly. He had a very recent dark knight of the had a very recent dark knight of the had a very recent dark knight of the soul and we go there. It's a very soul and we go there. It's a very soul and we go there. It's a very emotional conversation. I have emotional conversation. I have emotional conversation. I have appreciated Pat's work for over 25 appreciated Pat's work for over 25 appreciated Pat's work for over 25 years. I know a lot of you have as well. years. I know a lot of you have as well. years. I know a lot of you have as well. But what happens when you go through But what happens when you go through But what happens when you go through seasons as a leader? So, we talk about seasons as a leader? So, we talk about seasons as a leader? So, we talk about that. We talk about how work can heal that. We talk about how work can heal that. We talk about how work can heal you and about the power of leading you and about the power of leading you and about the power of leading nextgen leaders. This is a uh no holdsb nextgen leaders. This is a uh no holdsb nextgen leaders. This is a uh no holdsb barred conversation that we had in barred conversation that we had in barred conversation that we had in person. I spent a lot of time in person. I spent a lot of time in person. I spent a lot of time in Nashville this fall. We recorded it in Nashville this fall. We recorded it in Nashville this fall. We recorded it in Franklin, Tennessee. So if you're Franklin, Tennessee. So if you're Franklin, Tennessee. So if you're watching on YouTube, you'll see it. If watching on YouTube, you'll see it. If watching on YouTube, you'll see it. If you're listening, may want to switch to you're listening, may want to switch to you're listening, may want to switch to video mode on Spotify or head on over to video mode on Spotify or head on over to video mode on Spotify or head on over to YouTube and check it out, too. It's a YouTube and check it out, too. It's a YouTube and check it out, too. It's a great conversation. Patrick Lencion, as great conversation. Patrick Lencion, as great conversation. Patrick Lencion, as a lot of you know, is one of the a lot of you know, is one of the a lot of you know, is one of the founders of the table group and is the founders of the table group and is the founders of the table group and is the pioneer of the organizational health pioneer of the organizational health pioneer of the organizational health movement. He is the author of 13 books movement. He is the author of 13 books movement. He is the author of 13 books which have sold over 9 million copies which have sold over 9 million copies which have sold over 9 million copies and been translated into more than 30 and been translated into more than 30 and been translated into more than 30 languages. So if you're going to enjoy languages. So if you're going to enjoy languages. So if you're going to enjoy this episode, maybe you can share it this episode, maybe you can share it this episode, maybe you can share it with somebody. And um hey, if you want

with somebody. And um hey, if you want with somebody. And um hey, if you want show notes for this because we talk show notes for this because we talk show notes for this because we talk about a lot of things, the place to get about a lot of things, the place to get about a lot of things, the place to get them is in my Art of Leadership Academy. them is in my Art of Leadership Academy. them is in my Art of Leadership Academy. You can get them absolutely free. Join You can get them absolutely free. Join You can get them absolutely free. Join 20,000 leaders inside the academy at the 20,000 leaders inside the academy at the 20,000 leaders inside the academy at the art of leadershipacademy.com art of leadershipacademy.com art of leadershipacademy.com or just click the link wherever you're or just click the link wherever you're or just click the link wherever you're listening to this episode. And now my listening to this episode. And now my listening to this episode. And now my conversation with Pat Lion. Patrick, I'm conversation with Pat Lion. Patrick, I'm conversation with Pat Lion. Patrick, I'm so glad to be together again. We've had so glad to be together again. We've had so glad to be together again. We've had a bit of an afternoon of it, but time to a bit of an afternoon of it, but time to a bit of an afternoon of it, but time to roll the cameras. [laughter] roll the cameras. [laughter] roll the cameras. [laughter] >> Yeah, exactly. We should capture this. >> Yeah, exactly. We should capture this. >> Yeah, exactly. We should capture this. >> I know. At some point. At some point. >> I know. At some point. At some point. >> I know. At some point. At some point. So, So, So, >> I do want to say before we get started >> I do want to say before we get started >> I do want to say before we get started though, this shirt is in honor of you. though, this shirt is in honor of you. though, this shirt is in honor of you. >> Well, thank you. As I was very Canadian, >> Well, thank you. As I was very Canadian, >> Well, thank you. As I was very Canadian, >> the color, the vibe, I was leaving the >> the color, the vibe, I was leaving the >> the color, the vibe, I was leaving the house today. I said to Laura, I got to house today. I said to Laura, I got to house today. I said to Laura, I got to put on a different shirt. I'm going to put on a different shirt. I'm going to put on a different shirt. I'm going to see Carrie today. So, see Carrie today. So, see Carrie today. So, >> well, I'm honored. And I wore this uh >> well, I'm honored. And I wore this uh >> well, I'm honored. And I wore this uh black t-shirt in honor of black t-shirt in honor of black t-shirt in honor of >> I don't know. [laughter] >> I don't know. [laughter] >> I don't know. [laughter] >> But it's good. We're here in Franklin, >> But it's good. We're here in Franklin, >> But it's good. We're here in Franklin, Tennessee. Your new home. Tennessee. Your new home. Tennessee. Your new home. >> My new home, >> My new home, >> My new home, >> which we may get to. I talked to Henry >> which we may get to. I talked to Henry >> which we may get to. I talked to Henry about moving to Nashville, Henry Cloud, about moving to Nashville, Henry Cloud, about moving to Nashville, Henry Cloud, >> about it. But I want to start somewhere >> about it. But I want to start somewhere >> about it. But I want to start somewhere different because we spent a day different because we spent a day different because we spent a day together a couple years ago together a couple years ago together a couple years ago >> and you said something I wrote down. It >> and you said something I wrote down. It >> and you said something I wrote down. It was one of those things that really uh was one of those things that really uh was one of those things that really uh captured my immediate attention, made me captured my immediate attention, made me captured my immediate attention, made me sit up straight. And you said people go sit up straight. And you said people go sit up straight. And you said people go to work to heal. I thought that was to work to heal. I thought that was to work to heal. I thought that was absolutely fascinating. Do you want to absolutely fascinating. Do you want to absolutely fascinating. Do you want to talk a little bit about what's behind talk a little bit about what's behind talk a little bit about what's behind that idea?

that idea? that idea? >> Yeah. I mean, God made us to need one >> Yeah. I mean, God made us to need one >> Yeah. I mean, God made us to need one another and um we need to be with others another and um we need to be with others another and um we need to be with others to do that and it's not always with our to do that and it's not always with our to do that and it's not always with our family and so we're meant to be with family and so we're meant to be with family and so we're meant to be with other people in community other people in community other people in community >> to get better. And you know, we talk >> to get better. And you know, we talk >> to get better. And you know, we talk about professional development and it's about professional development and it's about professional development and it's just personal development improvement just personal development improvement just personal development improvement and we all have wounds and the people and we all have wounds and the people and we all have wounds and the people that spend the most time with us are the that spend the most time with us are the that spend the most time with us are the people we work with. Now, very few people we work with. Now, very few people we work with. Now, very few people have the kind of relationship people have the kind of relationship people have the kind of relationship with their co-workers where they do with their co-workers where they do with their co-workers where they do this, but they should because we go this, but they should because we go this, but they should because we go there seeking to be better. And so, I there seeking to be better. And so, I there seeking to be better. And so, I think that work is a great place to think that work is a great place to think that work is a great place to begin the healing process. And it's begin the healing process. And it's begin the healing process. And it's those people who see us and can see the those people who see us and can see the those people who see us and can see the progress every day. And the people I've progress every day. And the people I've progress every day. And the people I've worked with for 28 years, some of them worked with for 28 years, some of them worked with for 28 years, some of them for 15 years, some of them for 6 months, for 15 years, some of them for 6 months, for 15 years, some of them for 6 months, they all participate. We participate in they all participate. We participate in they all participate. We participate in one another's healing. And uh and I I one another's healing. And uh and I I one another's healing. And uh and I I really do believe that to be the case. really do believe that to be the case. really do believe that to be the case. And for all those people that are And for all those people that are And for all those people that are listening to this going, "That doesn't listening to this going, "That doesn't listening to this going, "That doesn't happen in my workplace." happen in my workplace." happen in my workplace." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think it's a shame. The word company >> I think it's a shame. The word company >> I think it's a shame. The word company in Latin means to break bread together. in Latin means to break bread together. in Latin means to break bread together. >> Isn't that interesting?

>> Isn't that interesting? >> Isn't that interesting? >> Some time ago, somebody said, "What >> Some time ago, somebody said, "What >> Some time ago, somebody said, "What should we call this thing where we all should we call this thing where we all should we call this thing where we all get together and work?" And said, "Let's get together and work?" And said, "Let's get together and work?" And said, "Let's call it a company." And it's we break call it a company." And it's we break call it a company." And it's we break bread of course the Jesus. Yeah. And so bread of course the Jesus. Yeah. And so bread of course the Jesus. Yeah. And so why would we think that when we get why would we think that when we get why would we think that when we get together in our companies we we're not together in our companies we we're not together in our companies we we're not there to help one another. there to help one another. there to help one another. >> Well very similar with even the word >> Well very similar with even the word >> Well very similar with even the word corporation you know because in the corporation you know because in the corporation you know because in the church space it's like this is a church space it's like this is a church space it's like this is a corporation. Corporation literally means corporation. Corporation literally means corporation. Corporation literally means body body body >> body. >> body. >> body. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Which is which is a fascinating way to >> Which is which is a fascinating way to >> Which is which is a fascinating way to think about it. So couple of of of think about it. So couple of of of think about it. So couple of of of thoughts around that. One of the things, thoughts around that. One of the things, thoughts around that. One of the things, Pat, is that a lot of people, you know, Pat, is that a lot of people, you know, Pat, is that a lot of people, you know, if I put on my boss hat, particularly in if I put on my boss hat, particularly in if I put on my boss hat, particularly in my early years, I realize now that this my early years, I realize now that this my early years, I realize now that this is a place where I have to develop the is a place where I have to develop the is a place where I have to develop the whole person. whole person. whole person. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> That it's not just I want to extract >> That it's not just I want to extract >> That it's not just I want to extract your skills your skills your skills >> and, you know, get what I can from you. >> and, you know, get what I can from you. >> and, you know, get what I can from you. But when I was younger, I kind of But when I was younger, I kind of But when I was younger, I kind of thought that people should show up to thought that people should show up to thought that people should show up to work already healed and ready to go and work already healed and ready to go and work already healed and ready to go and to give. Is that still around as an idea to give. Is that still around as an idea to give. Is that still around as an idea that you you want fully functional that you you want fully functional that you you want fully functional people? Like how does that fit in with people? Like how does that fit in with people? Like how does that fit in with the personal journey?

the personal journey? the personal journey? >> I think people know now that nobody's >> I think people know now that nobody's >> I think people know now that nobody's fully fully functional. But what they do fully fully functional. But what they do fully fully functional. But what they do say still is keep that to yourself. say still is keep that to yourself. say still is keep that to yourself. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> You come to work, put on your best face >> You come to work, put on your best face >> You come to work, put on your best face here, and then whatever problems you here, and then whatever problems you here, and then whatever problems you have, don't bring it here. We don't have, don't bring it here. We don't have, don't bring it here. We don't really want to talk about it here. Don't really want to talk about it here. Don't really want to talk about it here. Don't overshare. And I think that is overshare. And I think that is overshare. And I think that is completely upside down. Now, there is a completely upside down. Now, there is a completely upside down. Now, there is a such thing as oversharing. There's such thing as oversharing. There's such thing as oversharing. There's people that have don't have the right people that have don't have the right people that have don't have the right boundaries. boundaries. boundaries. >> I can't work because I'm healing. >> I can't work because I'm healing. >> I can't work because I'm healing. >> Exactly. But I do believe that we are >> Exactly. But I do believe that we are >> Exactly. But I do believe that we are meant to be fully human at work. And we meant to be fully human at work. And we meant to be fully human at work. And we shouldn't when we do that, we when we shouldn't when we do that, we when we shouldn't when we do that, we when we have to put on that face, then we put have to put on that face, then we put have to put on that face, then we put our best selves at work and we go home our best selves at work and we go home our best selves at work and we go home and it's all recovery around the people and it's all recovery around the people and it's all recovery around the people we love the most. we love the most. we love the most. >> And that's not good. You know how many >> And that's not good. You know how many >> And that's not good. You know how many people are like, I hold on and I I white people are like, I hold on and I I white people are like, I hold on and I I white knuckle it at work and then I go home knuckle it at work and then I go home knuckle it at work and then I go home and I act in the worst way. So I think and I act in the worst way. So I think and I act in the worst way. So I think what we need to do is when I think about what we need to do is when I think about what we need to do is when I think about work life balance, it's integration of work life balance, it's integration of work life balance, it's integration of being that the whole person. I'm working being that the whole person. I'm working being that the whole person. I'm working on something right now that we're on something right now that we're on something right now that we're calling the whole person project because calling the whole person project because calling the whole person project because we need to understand that when people we need to understand that when people we need to understand that when people come to work, they are everything. They come to work, they are everything. They come to work, they are everything. They have wounds, they have talents, they have wounds, they have talents, they have wounds, they have talents, they have limitations, they have history, have limitations, they have history, have limitations, they have history, they have things going on in their they have things going on in their they have things going on in their lives. And at the end of the day, how we lives. And at the end of the day, how we lives. And at the end of the day, how we influence them in that capacity will influence them in that capacity will influence them in that capacity will mean more than the professional stuff we mean more than the professional stuff we mean more than the professional stuff we do.

do. do. >> I believe that. And that doesn't mean we >> I believe that. And that doesn't mean we >> I believe that. And that doesn't mean we can't still focus on being really good can't still focus on being really good can't still focus on being really good at the professional stuff we do. But at the professional stuff we do. But at the professional stuff we do. But these are human beings. So if you go to these are human beings. So if you go to these are human beings. So if you go to seminary or you go to even get your MBA, seminary or you go to even get your MBA, seminary or you go to even get your MBA, nobody really prepares you. Like in nobody really prepares you. Like in nobody really prepares you. Like in seminary, the idea is that yeah, you're seminary, the idea is that yeah, you're seminary, the idea is that yeah, you're there to help the congregation, but you there to help the congregation, but you there to help the congregation, but you don't get any training on staff. So, don't get any training on staff. So, don't get any training on staff. So, what does it look like when when you what does it look like when when you what does it look like when when you have a new hire and they come to work to have a new hire and they come to work to have a new hire and they come to work to heal heal heal >> as a boss? How do you even get your head >> as a boss? How do you even get your head >> as a boss? How do you even get your head around that? Like, what are the things around that? Like, what are the things around that? Like, what are the things you should be doing not doing? you should be doing not doing? you should be doing not doing? >> That's a great question. But I I want to >> That's a great question. But I I want to >> That's a great question. But I I want to say this about seminary. say this about seminary. say this about seminary. >> It's so in it's it's really tragic that >> It's so in it's it's really tragic that >> It's so in it's it's really tragic that people get out of seminary and then go people get out of seminary and then go people get out of seminary and then go to work and they want to share the to work and they want to share the to work and they want to share the gospel and love on people in the gospel and love on people in the gospel and love on people in the congregation, which they should, but you congregation, which they should, but you congregation, which they should, but you have to start with the people you work have to start with the people you work have to start with the people you work with. Now, with. Now, with. Now, >> yes, >> yes, >> yes, >> that doesn't mean it's a jobs program. >> that doesn't mean it's a jobs program. >> that doesn't mean it's a jobs program. John Ortberg, one of our friends, once John Ortberg, one of our friends, once John Ortberg, one of our friends, once said, "Nobody should work at a church said, "Nobody should work at a church said, "Nobody should work at a church who needs the job." But if we don't love who needs the job." But if we don't love who needs the job." But if we don't love on the people on staff on the people on staff on the people on staff and think we're going to love on the and think we're going to love on the and think we're going to love on the people in the pews, that just doesn't people in the pews, that just doesn't people in the pews, that just doesn't work. And what's interesting, and then work. And what's interesting, and then work. And what's interesting, and then people come out of MBA school and they people come out of MBA school and they people come out of MBA school and they run learn how to run a business, but run learn how to run a business, but run learn how to run a business, but they often don't think about the they often don't think about the they often don't think about the ministry of what they do. I'm working on ministry of what they do. I'm working on ministry of what they do. I'm working on something right now with the school something right now with the school something right now with the school around understanding the fullness of the around understanding the fullness of the around understanding the fullness of the ministry of any kind of work. And ministry of any kind of work. And ministry of any kind of work. And because we all have a vocation, you because we all have a vocation, you because we all have a vocation, you know, and so I think that we need to know, and so I think that we need to know, and so I think that we need to really understand that. Now, the really understand that. Now, the really understand that. Now, the question you actually asked me was what?

question you actually asked me was what? question you actually asked me was what? I just forgot. I just forgot. I just forgot. >> Oh, no. Um, like you don't learn this in >> Oh, no. Um, like you don't learn this in >> Oh, no. Um, like you don't learn this in seminary. You don't learn this in MBA. seminary. You don't learn this in MBA. seminary. You don't learn this in MBA. So, if I haven't got that as a filter So, if I haven't got that as a filter So, if I haven't got that as a filter through which I see my leadership lens, through which I see my leadership lens, through which I see my leadership lens, where do I start? Because I think, you where do I start? Because I think, you where do I start? Because I think, you know, and let me put some color behind know, and let me put some color behind know, and let me put some color behind that. So often, you know, a boss, let's that. So often, you know, a boss, let's that. So often, you know, a boss, let's say you hire a 25-year-old. 25-year-old say you hire a 25-year-old. 25-year-old say you hire a 25-year-old. 25-year-old stayed up too late on a weekend and then stayed up too late on a weekend and then stayed up too late on a weekend and then shows up a little bit blur eyed on shows up a little bit blur eyed on shows up a little bit blur eyed on Monday morning. A lot of bosses just Monday morning. A lot of bosses just Monday morning. A lot of bosses just roll their eyes and it's like shape up roll their eyes and it's like shape up roll their eyes and it's like shape up or ship out, right? That would be a or ship out, right? That would be a or ship out, right? That would be a typical response. What's a better typical response. What's a better typical response. What's a better response? What's a healthier response? response? What's a healthier response? response? What's a healthier response? >> Well, and this and this is where it >> Well, and this and this is where it >> Well, and this and this is where it needs to be a ministry. Mercy and grace needs to be a ministry. Mercy and grace needs to be a ministry. Mercy and grace apply at work, too. But so do apply at work, too. But so do apply at work, too. But so do boundaries, which Henry boundaries, which Henry boundaries, which Henry >> It's both, right? >> It's both, right? >> It's both, right? >> Which Henry Cloud wrote about. And and >> Which Henry Cloud wrote about. And and >> Which Henry Cloud wrote about. And and we have to love people in truth. And we we have to love people in truth. And we we have to love people in truth. And we have to pray. I mean, I really think the have to pray. I mean, I really think the have to pray. I mean, I really think the thing is like what's the right how many thing is like what's the right how many thing is like what's the right how many chances do you give somebody at work? chances do you give somebody at work? chances do you give somebody at work? >> And there's no easy answer. Like strike >> And there's no easy answer. Like strike >> And there's no easy answer. Like strike one, strike two, strike three. I know one, strike two, strike three. I know one, strike two, strike three. I know >> Pat, how many chances do you give >> Pat, how many chances do you give >> Pat, how many chances do you give someone at work?

someone at work? someone at work? >> You pray about it and say, "God, purify >> You pray about it and say, "God, purify >> You pray about it and say, "God, purify my intentions so that I I will know my intentions so that I I will know my intentions so that I I will know whether I'm enabling this person in a whether I'm enabling this person in a whether I'm enabling this person in a bad way or whether I'm giving them the bad way or whether I'm giving them the bad way or whether I'm giving them the grace they need to get where they need grace they need to get where they need grace they need to get where they need to go." And if I think that human wisdom to go." And if I think that human wisdom to go." And if I think that human wisdom can answer that question, because if I can answer that question, because if I can answer that question, because if I know that I'm an instrument in God's know that I'm an instrument in God's know that I'm an instrument in God's hands to help this person, then I turn hands to help this person, then I turn hands to help this person, then I turn to him and say, "What do you want me to to him and say, "What do you want me to to him and say, "What do you want me to do?" And I know we all say that and do?" And I know we all say that and do?" And I know we all say that and myself included, but do we ever stop and myself included, but do we ever stop and myself included, but do we ever stop and do that? Like we're having a meeting do that? Like we're having a meeting do that? Like we're having a meeting with a person, we're going to how tough with a person, we're going to how tough with a person, we're going to how tough should I be on them? How how gentle should I be on them? How how gentle should I be on them? How how gentle should I be with them? How much should I should I be with them? How much should I should I be with them? How much should I be holding them accountable? How much be holding them accountable? How much be holding them accountable? How much should I should I be giving them grace? should I should I be giving them grace? should I should I be giving them grace? I don't think we're supposed to do that I don't think we're supposed to do that I don't think we're supposed to do that just on how we feel that day. We have to just on how we feel that day. We have to just on how we feel that day. We have to ask God, "Show me what you want me to do ask God, "Show me what you want me to do ask God, "Show me what you want me to do in your hands." in your hands." in your hands." So easy to say, but so hard to do in the So easy to say, but so hard to do in the So easy to say, but so hard to do in the moment when it's like from one meeting moment when it's like from one meeting moment when it's like from one meeting to the next. And I don't know who taught to the next. And I don't know who taught to the next. And I don't know who taught this to me, but every one of those this to me, but every one of those this to me, but every one of those meetings is a divine appointment. And meetings is a divine appointment. And meetings is a divine appointment. And man, it's so tragic and we forget that. man, it's so tragic and we forget that. man, it's so tragic and we forget that. And I forget it all the time. I'm just And I forget it all the time. I'm just And I forget it all the time. I'm just going to meet. going to meet. going to meet. >> I do, too. I mean, I pray and I pray for >> I do, too. I mean, I pray and I pray for >> I do, too. I mean, I pray and I pray for my team on the regular basis. But you're my team on the regular basis. But you're my team on the regular basis. But you're right. Going into a difficult meeting, I right. Going into a difficult meeting, I right. Going into a difficult meeting, I had one this week had one this week had one this week >> or I'm like, "Okay, what am I going to >> or I'm like, "Okay, what am I going to >> or I'm like, "Okay, what am I going to say?" I don't think I prayed about that say?" I don't think I prayed about that say?" I don't think I prayed about that specifically.

specifically. specifically. >> Yeah. And you know to to get back to >> Yeah. And you know to to get back to >> Yeah. And you know to to get back to answering your question, Carrie, because answering your question, Carrie, because answering your question, Carrie, because as you're talking, I'm thinking like, oh as you're talking, I'm thinking like, oh as you're talking, I'm thinking like, oh yeah, I don't do that either. And I yeah, I don't do that either. And I yeah, I don't do that either. And I thought one of the things if I were to thought one of the things if I were to thought one of the things if I were to give somebody advice, it would be be give somebody advice, it would be be give somebody advice, it would be be vulnerable whenever you're doing. When vulnerable whenever you're doing. When vulnerable whenever you're doing. When you go to somebody and say you have to you go to somebody and say you have to you go to somebody and say you have to give them tough advice, let them know give them tough advice, let them know give them tough advice, let them know about something you went through and how about something you went through and how about something you went through and how it affected you. It opens up other it affected you. It opens up other it affected you. It opens up other people to receive that. people to receive that. people to receive that. >> You're right. Hey, I remember there was >> You're right. Hey, I remember there was >> You're right. Hey, I remember there was a time when blah blah blah and I think a time when blah blah blah and I think a time when blah blah blah and I think we had a situation like that this week I we had a situation like that this week I we had a situation like that this week I need to talk to you about need to talk to you about need to talk to you about >> right that you know I've never done that >> right that you know I've never done that >> right that you know I've never done that either. Gosh, this is this is either. Gosh, this is this is either. Gosh, this is this is >> that 25-year-old kid who comes in late >> that 25-year-old kid who comes in late >> that 25-year-old kid who comes in late because he overslept whatever else. And because he overslept whatever else. And because he overslept whatever else. And the difference between saying, "Hey, you the difference between saying, "Hey, you the difference between saying, "Hey, you know, you can't do that." And going, know, you can't do that." And going, know, you can't do that." And going, "Hey, you know, when I was your age, I "Hey, you know, when I was your age, I "Hey, you know, when I was your age, I did that." So, I get it. And I had did that." So, I get it. And I had did that." So, I get it. And I had somebody had a tough talk with me. It somebody had a tough talk with me. It somebody had a tough talk with me. It actually is how I changed. actually is how I changed. actually is how I changed. >> So, I'm going to be that person for you >> So, I'm going to be that person for you >> So, I'm going to be that person for you because I care about you. So, I really because I care about you. So, I really because I care about you. So, I really need you to stop doing that. But, I get need you to stop doing that. But, I get need you to stop doing that. But, I get it. The difference between that it. The difference between that it. The difference between that >> versus if you do that again, you're out >> versus if you do that again, you're out >> versus if you do that again, you're out of here. So, another another mutual of here. So, another another mutual of here. So, another another mutual friend, Dave Ramsey, who you know you've friend, Dave Ramsey, who you know you've friend, Dave Ramsey, who you know you've gotten to know quite well. Dave has gotten to know quite well. Dave has gotten to know quite well. Dave has said, I think on this podcast, he's said, I think on this podcast, he's said, I think on this podcast, he's talked about and talked about it talked about and talked about it talked about and talked about it elsewhere, too. When you get with that elsewhere, too. When you get with that elsewhere, too. When you get with that younger generation, particularly Gen Z younger generation, particularly Gen Z younger generation, particularly Gen Z or super young millennials, or super young millennials, or super young millennials, >> they tend to be allin or like deadbeats.

>> they tend to be allin or like deadbeats. >> they tend to be allin or like deadbeats. [laughter] You know, in typical Dave [laughter] You know, in typical Dave [laughter] You know, in typical Dave language, it's like they either they language, it's like they either they language, it's like they either they either can't earn a paycheck, they're either can't earn a paycheck, they're either can't earn a paycheck, they're not showing up, they're lazy, or they're not showing up, they're lazy, or they're not showing up, they're lazy, or they're so driven that these are the so driven that these are the so driven that these are the entrepreneurs of the future. Mhm. entrepreneurs of the future. Mhm. entrepreneurs of the future. Mhm. >> One of the things I think a lot of older >> One of the things I think a lot of older >> One of the things I think a lot of older millennial bosses, Gen X bosses, even a millennial bosses, Gen X bosses, even a millennial bosses, Gen X bosses, even a few boomer bosses who are left, you few boomer bosses who are left, you few boomer bosses who are left, you know, struggle with is putting on that know, struggle with is putting on that know, struggle with is putting on that parenting hat. And I found when I've parenting hat. And I found when I've parenting hat. And I found when I've hired super young people that I almost hired super young people that I almost hired super young people that I almost function as a dad at this stage in my function as a dad at this stage in my function as a dad at this stage in my life where I'm like, okay, about getting life where I'm like, okay, about getting life where I'm like, okay, about getting enough sleep that is actually important enough sleep that is actually important enough sleep that is actually important for work. Hey, can I tell you that's not for work. Hey, can I tell you that's not for work. Hey, can I tell you that's not how you write an email or yeah, you're how you write an email or yeah, you're how you write an email or yeah, you're going to have to pick up the phone and going to have to pick up the phone and going to have to pick up the phone and make a call and take responsibility. make a call and take responsibility. make a call and take responsibility. Like, I'm almost parenting two boys you Like, I'm almost parenting two boys you Like, I'm almost parenting two boys you parented four, parented four, parented four, >> right? You're parenting. It's not like >> right? You're parenting. It's not like >> right? You're parenting. It's not like we're done. we're done. we're done. >> Um, but but I had to teach my sons that >> Um, but but I had to teach my sons that >> Um, but but I had to teach my sons that skill and now I have to teach a skill and now I have to teach a skill and now I have to teach a workforce. Is that fair or am I workforce. Is that fair or am I workforce. Is that fair or am I overstepping? overstepping? overstepping? >> No, no, no. You know what's amazing >> No, no, no. You know what's amazing >> No, no, no. You know what's amazing about this and we think about our kids about this and we think about our kids about this and we think about our kids is they've heard everything from us. is they've heard everything from us. is they've heard everything from us. >> Yeah. But if they hear it from another >> Yeah. But if they hear it from another >> Yeah. But if they hear it from another adult in their life, they'll listen. I adult in their life, they'll listen. I adult in their life, they'll listen. I mean, I had this with my son today who's mean, I had this with my son today who's mean, I had this with my son today who's in college. I called to ask him a favor in college. I called to ask him a favor in college. I called to ask him a favor and he's like, "Do I really have to do and he's like, "Do I really have to do and he's like, "Do I really have to do that?" And I thought, that?" And I thought, that?" And I thought, >> you know, if somebody else asked me >> you know, if somebody else asked me >> you know, if somebody else asked me this, he'd say, "Absolutely, I do that."

this, he'd say, "Absolutely, I do that." this, he'd say, "Absolutely, I do that." And and I once years ago heard this And and I once years ago heard this And and I once years ago heard this famous football coach say, "Every parent famous football coach say, "Every parent famous football coach say, "Every parent needs," and he was a football coach. He needs," and he was a football coach. He needs," and he was a football coach. He said, "Every young man needs other men said, "Every young man needs other men said, "Every young man needs other men in their life to tell them things." And in their life to tell them things." And in their life to tell them things." And so when we're at work and we think I so when we're at work and we think I so when we're at work and we think I shouldn't have to be their parent, we shouldn't have to be their parent, we shouldn't have to be their parent, we should go, no, no, I get to minister to should go, no, no, I get to minister to should go, no, no, I get to minister to them because they need their next male them because they need their next male them because they need their next male or or or in our case male influence in or or or in our case male influence in or or or in our case male influence in their lives. So when we say to them, their lives. So when we say to them, their lives. So when we say to them, hey, I think you need to change this or hey, I think you need to change this or hey, I think you need to change this or or consider this, that's such a gift or consider this, that's such a gift or consider this, that's such a gift >> and it is an act of love. Holding it >> and it is an act of love. Holding it >> and it is an act of love. Holding it back back back is not love. And I' I was just talking is not love. And I' I was just talking is not love. And I' I was just talking to Laura about something around this to Laura about something around this to Laura about something around this last night. I'm like, what should I do last night. I'm like, what should I do last night. I'm like, what should I do in this situation? Should I should I in this situation? Should I should I in this situation? Should I should I talk to what's love? talk to what's love? talk to what's love? >> Withholding. And sometimes we think >> Withholding. And sometimes we think >> Withholding. And sometimes we think withholding is love. Like, well, I don't withholding is love. Like, well, I don't withholding is love. Like, well, I don't want to make them feel bad. want to make them feel bad. want to make them feel bad. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you're not giving them the >> And you're not giving them the >> And you're not giving them the opportunity to grow. opportunity to grow. opportunity to grow. >> That's a good point. So, we should >> That's a good point. So, we should >> That's a good point. So, we should expect then to have to mentor them in expect then to have to mentor them in expect then to have to mentor them in their lives, not just in their job. their lives, not just in their job. their lives, not just in their job. >> And let's hope somebody else is doing it >> And let's hope somebody else is doing it >> And let's hope somebody else is doing it for our kids in their jobs. Now, both of for our kids in their jobs. Now, both of for our kids in their jobs. Now, both of us have one son who's working for us.

us have one son who's working for us. us have one son who's working for us. >> Yeah. [laughter] Exactly. You've got >> Yeah. [laughter] Exactly. You've got >> Yeah. [laughter] Exactly. You've got Matt. I've got Sam. Matt. I've got Sam. Matt. I've got Sam. >> And I love it when other people do that. >> And I love it when other people do that. >> And I love it when other people do that. So, please, I'll tell you what. I'll So, please, I'll tell you what. I'll So, please, I'll tell you what. I'll take Sam. You take Matt. take Sam. You take Matt. take Sam. You take Matt. >> Okay. That's a good deal. Hey, Sam. Good >> Okay. That's a good deal. Hey, Sam. Good >> Okay. That's a good deal. Hey, Sam. Good news. I'll let you and he's going to news. I'll let you and he's going to news. I'll let you and he's going to mentor you. That's incredible. No, but I mentor you. That's incredible. No, but I mentor you. That's incredible. No, but I think I think there is almost I think think I think there is almost I think think I think there is almost I think there was an era and you and I are old there was an era and you and I are old there was an era and you and I are old enough. We're actually we established enough. We're actually we established enough. We're actually we established we're three months four months apart, I we're three months four months apart, I we're three months four months apart, I think. And think. And think. And >> we won't say who's older. >> we won't say who's older. >> we won't say who's older. >> No. No. Well, that would be me. You >> No. No. Well, that would be me. You >> No. No. Well, that would be me. You [laughter] know, I have more aches and [laughter] know, I have more aches and [laughter] know, I have more aches and pains than you do, Pat. pains than you do, Pat. pains than you do, Pat. >> By three months. >> By three months. >> By three months. >> By three months. So, um, but I think we >> By three months. So, um, but I think we >> By three months. So, um, but I think we remember a time in the workplace where remember a time in the workplace where remember a time in the workplace where that was almost for boat. Like, you that was almost for boat. Like, you that was almost for boat. Like, you wouldn't do that. you would not coach wouldn't do that. you would not coach wouldn't do that. you would not coach someone on their life because it was someone on their life because it was someone on their life because it was just about their performance. And I'm just about their performance. And I'm just about their performance. And I'm sure there are organizations and leaders sure there are organizations and leaders sure there are organizations and leaders who still believe that. Talk about what who still believe that. Talk about what who still believe that. Talk about what you think about that. Okay. So, I think you think about that. Okay. So, I think you think about that. Okay. So, I think this is I I love this and um I love this is I I love this and um I love this is I I love this and um I love doing dealing with these questions in doing dealing with these questions in doing dealing with these questions in real time. I think that's why core real time. I think that's why core real time. I think that's why core values are so important in an organ in values are so important in an organ in values are so important in an organ in an organization. So if you join a place an organization. So if you join a place an organization. So if you join a place and you know that you have values in and you know that you have values in and you know that you have values in common like I belong here and they common like I belong here and they common like I belong here and they embrace me because these two or three embrace me because these two or three embrace me because these two or three core values are what we have in common core values are what we have in common core values are what we have in common >> that gives you that permission cuz it's >> that gives you that permission cuz it's >> that gives you that permission cuz it's like I know you value these things like like I know you value these things like like I know you value these things like I do. I'm coming at you with with with I do. I'm coming at you with with with I do. I'm coming at you with with with as a as a brother or sister in this as a as a brother or sister in this as a as a brother or sister in this environment. When you join a company and environment. When you join a company and environment. When you join a company and there's just no core and there's plenty there's just no core and there's plenty there's just no core and there's plenty that don't have real values.

that don't have real values. that don't have real values. >> Sure. Or something on the wall that >> Sure. Or something on the wall that >> Sure. Or something on the wall that nobody knows what they mean. Then it's nobody knows what they mean. Then it's nobody knows what they mean. Then it's kind of like, well, who are you to do kind of like, well, who are you to do kind of like, well, who are you to do this? But there's something about core this? But there's something about core this? But there's something about core values that says we have this in common. values that says we have this in common. values that says we have this in common. >> And it's probably within the context of >> And it's probably within the context of >> And it's probably within the context of those values that I'm going to talk to those values that I'm going to talk to those values that I'm going to talk to you about this stuff. And but if we have you about this stuff. And but if we have you about this stuff. And but if we have nothing in common, we just all happen to nothing in common, we just all happen to nothing in common, we just all happen to apply for a job here and get a job here apply for a job here and get a job here apply for a job here and get a job here in the company. We don't really all buy in the company. We don't really all buy in the company. We don't really all buy into behavior or mission. It does kind into behavior or mission. It does kind into behavior or mission. It does kind of feel weird. This episode is brought of feel weird. This episode is brought of feel weird. This episode is brought to you by Haystack. When somebody in to you by Haystack. When somebody in to you by Haystack. When somebody in your church has a question about faith, your church has a question about faith, your church has a question about faith, marriage, doubt, or anxiety, where do marriage, doubt, or anxiety, where do marriage, doubt, or anxiety, where do they turn? Google podcasts, chat, GPT. they turn? Google podcasts, chat, GPT. they turn? Google podcasts, chat, GPT. Well, here's the problem. They're Well, here's the problem. They're Well, here's the problem. They're getting answers from strangers, from getting answers from strangers, from getting answers from strangers, from algorithms, and chat bots, but they're algorithms, and chat bots, but they're algorithms, and chat bots, but they're not hearing from you. And you probably not hearing from you. And you probably not hearing from you. And you probably already preached exactly what they need already preached exactly what they need already preached exactly what they need to hear, but it's buried in your to hear, but it's buried in your to hear, but it's buried in your archive, right? Impossible to find. archive, right? Impossible to find. archive, right? Impossible to find. Hastack is an AI powered search engine Hastack is an AI powered search engine Hastack is an AI powered search engine for everything you've ever preached. for everything you've ever preached. for everything you've ever preached. Your congregation can ask real questions Your congregation can ask real questions Your congregation can ask real questions like, "Why does God allow suffering?" like, "Why does God allow suffering?" like, "Why does God allow suffering?" and get answers from you, their pastor, and get answers from you, their pastor, and get answers from you, their pastor, someone they trust. Your teaching someone they trust. Your teaching someone they trust. Your teaching doesn't have to disappear after Sunday.

doesn't have to disappear after Sunday. doesn't have to disappear after Sunday. The series on anxiety from last year, it The series on anxiety from last year, it The series on anxiety from last year, it can help somebody today. So, book your can help somebody today. So, book your can help somebody today. So, book your demo by grabbing a spot on their demo by grabbing a spot on their demo by grabbing a spot on their calendar at the haststack.ai. calendar at the haststack.ai. calendar at the haststack.ai. Mention this podcast and they'll import Mention this podcast and they'll import Mention this podcast and they'll import your sermon library for free. You'll see your sermon library for free. You'll see your sermon library for free. You'll see how it works with your own content how it works with your own content how it works with your own content before committing to anything. That's before committing to anything. That's before committing to anything. That's the haystack.ai. the haystack.ai. the haystack.ai. This episode is brought to you by Glue This episode is brought to you by Glue This episode is brought to you by Glue Content Studio. So, pastors, let me ask Content Studio. So, pastors, let me ask Content Studio. So, pastors, let me ask you something. Do you ever feel like you something. Do you ever feel like you something. Do you ever feel like Sunday is what you're called to, but Sunday is what you're called to, but Sunday is what you're called to, but Monday is what breaks you, right? You Monday is what breaks you, right? You Monday is what breaks you, right? You preach a message and then that message preach a message and then that message preach a message and then that message is supposed to turn into emails, social is supposed to turn into emails, social is supposed to turn into emails, social posts, small group questions, and next posts, small group questions, and next posts, small group questions, and next steps. No wonder the content hamster steps. No wonder the content hamster steps. No wonder the content hamster wheel never stops. And that's why Glue wheel never stops. And that's why Glue wheel never stops. And that's why Glue built content studio. It's designed built content studio. It's designed built content studio. It's designed around one simple idea. One message can around one simple idea. One message can around one simple idea. One message can power a whole week of ministry. So you power a whole week of ministry. So you power a whole week of ministry. So you drop in your sermon. Could be an drop in your sermon. Could be an drop in your sermon. Could be an outline, your notes, or a transcript. outline, your notes, or a transcript. outline, your notes, or a transcript. And Content Studio helps turn it into And Content Studio helps turn it into And Content Studio helps turn it into summaries, onbrand social posts, summaries, onbrand social posts, summaries, onbrand social posts, discussion prompts, and practical next discussion prompts, and practical next discussion prompts, and practical next step. So instead of starting from step. So instead of starting from step. So instead of starting from scratch on Monday, you're building from scratch on Monday, you're building from scratch on Monday, you're building from what God already gave you on Sunday.

what God already gave you on Sunday. what God already gave you on Sunday. Reclaim your Mondays and extend the Reclaim your Mondays and extend the Reclaim your Mondays and extend the impact of your preaching by going to impact of your preaching by going to impact of your preaching by going to glue.com/carry. glue.com/carry. glue.com/carry. That's gloo.com/carry. Yeah. Yeah, it does. So, your values Yeah. Yeah, it does. So, your values give you permission to speak into it. give you permission to speak into it. give you permission to speak into it. How do you know you're going too far? I How do you know you're going too far? I How do you know you're going too far? I can think about one leader who's on our can think about one leader who's on our can think about one leader who's on our team again. You know, it's funny that team again. You know, it's funny that team again. You know, it's funny that this is a fun part about being in this is a fun part about being in this is a fun part about being in leadership for a long time. I saw this leadership for a long time. I saw this leadership for a long time. I saw this at the church and I'm seeing it now in at the church and I'm seeing it now in at the church and I'm seeing it now in my company where we've recently rehired my company where we've recently rehired my company where we've recently rehired some people who left for life reasons. some people who left for life reasons. some people who left for life reasons. It's like, "All right, this job isn't It's like, "All right, this job isn't It's like, "All right, this job isn't fitting anymore." And then it's like, fitting anymore." And then it's like, fitting anymore." And then it's like, "Well, actually, it's fitting again." "Well, actually, it's fitting again." "Well, actually, it's fitting again." It's like, "Yeah, come on back." And so, It's like, "Yeah, come on back." And so, It's like, "Yeah, come on back." And so, that's a lot of fun. But one of them that's a lot of fun. But one of them that's a lot of fun. But one of them was, I think, 18 or 19 when I hired him. was, I think, 18 or 19 when I hired him. was, I think, 18 or 19 when I hired him. >> And I ended up almost being like a dad >> And I ended up almost being like a dad >> And I ended up almost being like a dad to him. And Dylan, you know who I'm to him. And Dylan, you know who I'm to him. And Dylan, you know who I'm talking about. He'd be really talking about. He'd be really talking about. He'd be really comfortable talking about it. But there comfortable talking about it. But there comfortable talking about it. But there was a lot of like parenting in the first was a lot of like parenting in the first was a lot of like parenting in the first year or two where I'm like, "Here's how year or two where I'm like, "Here's how year or two where I'm like, "Here's how you write an email and know no, you need you write an email and know no, you need you write an email and know no, you need to get some sleep before you show up for to get some sleep before you show up for to get some sleep before you show up for work and don't be late." and little work and don't be late." and little work and don't be late." and little things like that, right? Well, that fast things like that, right? Well, that fast things like that, right? Well, that fast forward seven, eight years and he's forward seven, eight years and he's forward seven, eight years and he's crushing it. I mean, he's he's owned all crushing it. I mean, he's he's owned all crushing it. I mean, he's he's owned all that. He's internalized it. But how do that. He's internalized it. But how do that. He's internalized it. But how do you know when and you know the other one you know when and you know the other one you know when and you know the other one who just came back? I first met her when who just came back? I first met her when who just came back? I first met her when she was 18 and hired her at 22, which is she was 18 and hired her at 22, which is she was 18 and hired her at 22, which is great. And that was like almost 20 years great. And that was like almost 20 years great. And that was like almost 20 years ago. And ago. And ago. And >> she's coming back, too.

>> she's coming back, too. >> she's coming back, too. >> She's coming back now. Yeah. Her kids >> She's coming back now. Yeah. Her kids >> She's coming back now. Yeah. Her kids are at the stage where they're in school are at the stage where they're in school are at the stage where they're in school and she's got a more stable kind of and she's got a more stable kind of and she's got a more stable kind of schedule. And so, she's helping us out schedule. And so, she's helping us out schedule. And so, she's helping us out with some stuff on the team, which is with some stuff on the team, which is with some stuff on the team, which is amazing. She was my EA for 10 years. amazing. She was my EA for 10 years. amazing. She was my EA for 10 years. >> So, I have a woman in our office, >> So, I have a woman in our office, >> So, I have a woman in our office, Jackie. Jackie. Jackie. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And Jackie Collins, Jackie Finn. Now, >> And Jackie Collins, Jackie Finn. Now, >> And Jackie Collins, Jackie Finn. Now, she um we hired her right out of she um we hired her right out of she um we hired her right out of college. college. college. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and she has a great dad and mom. >> And and she has a great dad and mom. >> And and she has a great dad and mom. Much older than me. Not [laughter] Not Much older than me. Not [laughter] Not Much older than me. Not [laughter] Not much, but much, but much, but >> months older than me. >> months older than me. >> months older than me. >> But she did say that I was like a dad to >> But she did say that I was like a dad to >> But she did say that I was like a dad to her because it was her first job. And her because it was her first job. And her because it was her first job. And then she became like a sibling to my my then she became like a sibling to my my then she became like a sibling to my my boys, an older sister. boys, an older sister. boys, an older sister. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And we loved that. And she just stepped >> And we loved that. And she just stepped >> And we loved that. And she just stepped out cuz she had her third child. And out cuz she had her third child. And out cuz she had her third child. And it's been so painful. But three seems to it's been so painful. But three seems to it's been so painful. But three seems to be the deal breaker. be the deal breaker. be the deal breaker. >> And the thing is about it though is like >> And the thing is about it though is like >> And the thing is about it though is like I can't wait for her to go I want to I can't wait for her to go I want to I can't wait for her to go I want to re-engage. re-engage. re-engage. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Because because what we were part of one >> Because because what we were part of one >> Because because what we were part of one another's family now but the original another's family now but the original another's family now but the original questions was what's too far. questions was what's too far. questions was what's too far. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And here's the it's it's like people >> And here's the it's it's like people >> And here's the it's it's like people always ask me hey when do people have always ask me hey when do people have always ask me hey when do people have too much conflict at work? And everybody too much conflict at work? And everybody too much conflict at work? And everybody wants that story because it makes for wants that story because it makes for wants that story because it makes for interesting stuff.

interesting stuff. interesting stuff. >> 19 out of 20 times maybe 99 out of 100 >> 19 out of 20 times maybe 99 out of 100 >> 19 out of 20 times maybe 99 out of 100 there's too little. Yeah. And so, yes, there's too little. Yeah. And so, yes, there's too little. Yeah. And so, yes, it's interesting to talk about remember it's interesting to talk about remember it's interesting to talk about remember that time when that guy was just that time when that guy was just that time when that guy was just screaming in that guy's face and they screaming in that guy's face and they screaming in that guy's face and they almost came to blows. Okay. For every almost came to blows. Okay. For every almost came to blows. Okay. For every one of those, there's 99 and in churches one of those, there's 99 and in churches one of those, there's 99 and in churches it's like this too where they just it's like this too where they just it's like this too where they just didn't say what they needed to say. didn't say what they needed to say. didn't say what they needed to say. >> Okay, that's interesting. >> Okay, that's interesting. >> Okay, that's interesting. >> And I think it's the same in this. I >> And I think it's the same in this. I >> And I think it's the same in this. I think most people heir on the side of think most people heir on the side of think most people heir on the side of oh, I don't I shouldn't go there when oh, I don't I shouldn't go there when oh, I don't I shouldn't go there when really the other person would benefit really the other person would benefit really the other person would benefit from it. And I think the reason why is from it. And I think the reason why is from it. And I think the reason why is because in the short term it's going to because in the short term it's going to because in the short term it's going to be uncomfortable. It's rare that you're be uncomfortable. It's rare that you're be uncomfortable. It's rare that you're going to say to that kid, "Hey, you going to say to that kid, "Hey, you going to say to that kid, "Hey, you know, I think you need to." They're know, I think you need to." They're know, I think you need to." They're going to go, "Thanks, mister. You're the going to go, "Thanks, mister. You're the going to go, "Thanks, mister. You're the best. You're just like a dad I never best. You're just like a dad I never best. You're just like a dad I never had. That was swell." In the moment, had. That was swell." In the moment, had. That was swell." In the moment, they're going to be like, "Oh, this is they're going to be like, "Oh, this is they're going to be like, "Oh, this is uncomfortable." But look at the people uncomfortable." But look at the people uncomfortable." But look at the people that you're talking about. They will that you're talking about. They will that you're talking about. They will look back and say, "That was the best look back and say, "That was the best look back and say, "That was the best thing I could that could have happened thing I could that could have happened thing I could that could have happened to me." Man, oh man. You know what I to me." Man, oh man. You know what I to me." Man, oh man. You know what I Okay, so this is a case study and uh I Okay, so this is a case study and uh I Okay, so this is a case study and uh I better send this to Dylan and Sarah better send this to Dylan and Sarah better send this to Dylan and Sarah before it airs just to make sure they're before it airs just to make sure they're before it airs just to make sure they're good with it. We don't need to cut it good with it. We don't need to cut it good with it. We don't need to cut it out. But when you're mentioning conflict out. But when you're mentioning conflict out. But when you're mentioning conflict at work with both of them. So first of at work with both of them. So first of at work with both of them. So first of all, you know, when I hired someone even all, you know, when I hired someone even all, you know, when I hired someone even seven years ago or, you know, 20 years seven years ago or, you know, 20 years seven years ago or, you know, 20 years ago in Sarah's case, I was a different ago in Sarah's case, I was a different ago in Sarah's case, I was a different leader. I was not nearly leader. I was not nearly leader. I was not nearly >> as emotionally regulated at 40 as I am >> as emotionally regulated at 40 as I am >> as emotionally regulated at 40 as I am at 60. [laughter] Okay, you're at 60. [laughter] Okay, you're at 60. [laughter] Okay, you're resonating, are you?

resonating, are you? resonating, are you? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, you're writing these >> Yeah. I mean, you're writing these >> Yeah. I mean, you're writing these books, but on the other hand, sometimes, books, but on the other hand, sometimes, books, but on the other hand, sometimes, you know, I would have meltdowns behind you know, I would have meltdowns behind you know, I would have meltdowns behind the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. >> Well, you know, and here's the thing. We >> Well, you know, and here's the thing. We >> Well, you know, and here's the thing. We talked about the healing. They were part talked about the healing. They were part talked about the healing. They were part of our healing. Yeah. Okay. It's not of our healing. Yeah. Okay. It's not of our healing. Yeah. Okay. It's not just I mean like my my kids saw me at a just I mean like my my kids saw me at a just I mean like my my kids saw me at a less good dad than I am today. less good dad than I am today. less good dad than I am today. >> And so they've been part of this too. >> And so they've been part of this too. >> And so they've been part of this too. One of the things I've learned is that One of the things I've learned is that One of the things I've learned is that the power of saying I'm sorry to my the power of saying I'm sorry to my the power of saying I'm sorry to my children and letting them understand children and letting them understand children and letting them understand that I've grown and and so the these that I've grown and and so the these that I've grown and and so the these employees that we have when we're employees that we have when we're employees that we have when we're younger saw us do the wrong things. And younger saw us do the wrong things. And younger saw us do the wrong things. And if we can go them and say, "Hey, I'm if we can go them and say, "Hey, I'm if we can go them and say, "Hey, I'm sorry that even a year later, we can go sorry that even a year later, we can go sorry that even a year later, we can go back and go, I just realized how back and go, I just realized how back and go, I just realized how inappropriate that was or how how unfair inappropriate that was or how how unfair inappropriate that was or how how unfair I was to you." That's part of the the I was to you." That's part of the the I was to you." That's part of the the joint healing. So, it's not just parent joint healing. So, it's not just parent joint healing. So, it's not just parent to child, manager to employee. It's to child, manager to employee. It's to child, manager to employee. It's we're in this together, we're in this together, we're in this together, >> right? And they made me better. But, you >> right? And they made me better. But, you >> right? And they made me better. But, you know, there were times where I would get know, there were times where I would get know, there were times where I would get really upset in different situations. really upset in different situations. really upset in different situations. sometimes at them, sometimes at myself, sometimes at them, sometimes at myself, sometimes at them, sometimes at myself, sometimes at the situation where it was sometimes at the situation where it was sometimes at the situation where it was almost like a family dynamic where almost like a family dynamic where almost like a family dynamic where >> it wasn't just conflict at work, but we >> it wasn't just conflict at work, but we >> it wasn't just conflict at work, but we had to like get on another call to patch had to like get on another call to patch had to like get on another call to patch it up and, you know, or have another it up and, you know, or have another it up and, you know, or have another face to face to patch it up almost like face to face to patch it up almost like face to face to patch it up almost like you do in a family, almost like you do you do in a family, almost like you do you do in a family, almost like you do in a marriage. I had an offsite with in a marriage. I had an offsite with in a marriage. I had an offsite with with my team, Cody, Tracy, and Karen, with my team, Cody, Tracy, and Karen, with my team, Cody, Tracy, and Karen, the leadership team of our company. And the leadership team of our company. And the leadership team of our company. And I've worked with Karen and Tracy for 30 I've worked with Karen and Tracy for 30 I've worked with Karen and Tracy for 30 years now. AR Arkin has been around 28.

years now. AR Arkin has been around 28. years now. AR Arkin has been around 28. They were we worked with before. Wow. They were we worked with before. Wow. They were we worked with before. Wow. >> And then Cody and I have worked >> And then Cody and I have worked >> And then Cody and I have worked together. I'm terrible at dates. I I I together. I'm terrible at dates. I I I together. I'm terrible at dates. I I I don't know if it's 12 or 15 years, but don't know if it's 12 or 15 years, but don't know if it's 12 or 15 years, but it seems like forever. it seems like forever. it seems like forever. >> He's been around a while. >> He's been around a while. >> He's been around a while. >> Yeah. So, we had an offsite recently and >> Yeah. So, we had an offsite recently and >> Yeah. So, we had an offsite recently and and we had come to another one of those and we had come to another one of those and we had come to another one of those points and I was sitting there that day, points and I was sitting there that day, points and I was sitting there that day, thank you God. And I said, I think we thank you God. And I said, I think we thank you God. And I said, I think we need to go a little deeper because we we need to go a little deeper because we we need to go a little deeper because we we we'd gone into different locations. We we'd gone into different locations. We we'd gone into different locations. We were working remotely. Things had been were working remotely. Things had been were working remotely. Things had been happening and it's easy to get to lose. happening and it's easy to get to lose. happening and it's easy to get to lose. And I said, I think that we need to have And I said, I think that we need to have And I said, I think that we need to have we need to tell each other things that we need to tell each other things that we need to tell each other things that we may have been holding back for over we may have been holding back for over we may have been holding back for over the years. And and and we did. And it the years. And and and we did. And it the years. And and and we did. And it was unbelievable how much we didn't know was unbelievable how much we didn't know was unbelievable how much we didn't know we had more depth to grow closer we had more depth to grow closer we had more depth to grow closer together. And it wasn't like doing it together. And it wasn't like doing it together. And it wasn't like doing it just to be weird. It was like, are there just to be weird. It was like, are there just to be weird. It was like, are there things we're holding back? And and some things we're holding back? And and some things we're holding back? And and some of it was done in what we thought was of it was done in what we thought was of it was done in what we thought was kindness. And we just never have said to kindness. And we just never have said to kindness. And we just never have said to somebody,"Hey, when you do that, that's somebody,"Hey, when you do that, that's somebody,"Hey, when you do that, that's really hard for me and I don't think really hard for me and I don't think really hard for me and I don't think it's good for you either." And there was it's good for you either." And there was it's good for you either." And there was tears and there was appreciation and tears and there was appreciation and tears and there was appreciation and there was there was this amazing sense there was there was this amazing sense there was there was this amazing sense of growth. And we all said, "We keep of growth. And we all said, "We keep of growth. And we all said, "We keep thinking we've plateaued in our thinking we've plateaued in our thinking we've plateaued in our relationship. It's just like marriage."

relationship. It's just like marriage." relationship. It's just like marriage." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we can go further. Now, my marriage >> And we can go further. Now, my marriage >> And we can go further. Now, my marriage is the most important relationship and I is the most important relationship and I is the most important relationship and I haven't. And if my marriage isn't good, haven't. And if my marriage isn't good, haven't. And if my marriage isn't good, it's really tough for me to pour into my it's really tough for me to pour into my it's really tough for me to pour into my team. Mhm. team. Mhm. team. Mhm. >> But man, it it requires the same kind of >> But man, it it requires the same kind of >> But man, it it requires the same kind of we're going to re-engage in an we're going to re-engage in an we're going to re-engage in an uncomfortable conversation out of love uncomfortable conversation out of love uncomfortable conversation out of love with pure intentions and amazing things with pure intentions and amazing things with pure intentions and amazing things happen. So, back to the question, what's happen. So, back to the question, what's happen. So, back to the question, what's too much? Usually, we do too little too too much? Usually, we do too little too too much? Usually, we do too little too much is usually when a person is so much is usually when a person is so much is usually when a person is so wounded wounded wounded that and everybody kind of knows it. that and everybody kind of knows it. that and everybody kind of knows it. >> Exactly. Right. >> Exactly. Right. >> Exactly. Right. >> And that's what we have to say, hey, we >> And that's what we have to say, hey, we >> And that's what we have to say, hey, we love we need you to go deal with that on love we need you to go deal with that on love we need you to go deal with that on your own. your own. your own. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. to the extent that you're comfortable to the extent that you're comfortable to the extent that you're comfortable because I've got my team members in real because I've got my team members in real because I've got my team members in real [clears throat] time feeding back to me [clears throat] time feeding back to me [clears throat] time feeding back to me things that are not helpful, right? things that are not helpful, right? things that are not helpful, right? [laughter] Like like you know my [laughter] Like like you know my [laughter] Like like you know my assistant, my current assistant Katie assistant, my current assistant Katie assistant, my current assistant Katie would say stuff to me like you know it would say stuff to me like you know it would say stuff to me like you know it feels like you get really upset when I feels like you get really upset when I feels like you get really upset when I do this. And I'm like well yeah but I do this. And I'm like well yeah but I do this. And I'm like well yeah but I don't know whether I'm upset with myself don't know whether I'm upset with myself don't know whether I'm upset with myself or I don't know whether I'm upset with or I don't know whether I'm upset with or I don't know whether I'm upset with you or I I don't know. and we we work you or I I don't know. and we we work you or I I don't know. and we we work through it. But can you give me an through it. But can you give me an through it. But can you give me an example of like in that pow-wow you had example of like in that pow-wow you had example of like in that pow-wow you had with your leadership team of some with your leadership team of some with your leadership team of some feedback they gave you and just to the feedback they gave you and just to the feedback they gave you and just to the extent that you're comfortable?

extent that you're comfortable? extent that you're comfortable? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That would have been hard for them to >> That would have been hard for them to >> That would have been hard for them to say, potentially hard for you to hear, say, potentially hard for you to hear, say, potentially hard for you to hear, but that made it better. but that made it better. but that made it better. >> Yeah. So, we um Yeah, I'll give you this >> Yeah. So, we um Yeah, I'll give you this >> Yeah. So, we um Yeah, I'll give you this was this was a tough one to hear, but it was this was a tough one to hear, but it was this was a tough one to hear, but it was so The only thing worse than hearing was so The only thing worse than hearing was so The only thing worse than hearing it was not hearing it and not being able it was not hearing it and not being able it was not hearing it and not being able to address it. to address it. to address it. We'd been we've worked together for a We'd been we've worked together for a We'd been we've worked together for a long time. And there was a concern long time. And there was a concern long time. And there was a concern that like maybe you think it's time for that like maybe you think it's time for that like maybe you think it's time for me to leave, me to leave, me to leave, which was not on my mind at all. And which was not on my mind at all. And which was not on my mind at all. And maybe if I did, you would forget about maybe if I did, you would forget about maybe if I did, you would forget about me. me. me. And I was like, "Oh, no." Cuz there was And I was like, "Oh, no." Cuz there was And I was like, "Oh, no." Cuz there was things I I did that made them think that things I I did that made them think that things I I did that made them think that might be true. And it gave me the chance might be true. And it gave me the chance might be true. And it gave me the chance to assure them and to to like in very to assure them and to to like in very to assure them and to to like in very meaningful ways of what they do for the meaningful ways of what they do for the meaningful ways of what they do for the company and for me and for the team that company and for me and for the team that company and for me and for the team that I didn't realize they needed to hear cuz I didn't realize they needed to hear cuz I didn't realize they needed to hear cuz we all assume everybody else is we all assume everybody else is we all assume everybody else is perfectly secure and we're the only perfectly secure and we're the only perfectly secure and we're the only insecure ones, but everybody needs to be insecure ones, but everybody needs to be insecure ones, but everybody needs to be reminded, reminded, reminded, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And and then it also allowed me to say, >> And and then it also allowed me to say, >> And and then it also allowed me to say, "So what do I do or what's happened that "So what do I do or what's happened that "So what do I do or what's happened that makes you think if you were to do that, makes you think if you were to do that, makes you think if you were to do that, I wouldn't care about you." So I wouldn't care about you." So I wouldn't care about you." So >> you went deeper. You're like, >> you went deeper. You're like, >> you went deeper. You're like, [clears throat] "And I need to learn [clears throat] "And I need to learn [clears throat] "And I need to learn more about that. needed to own it.

more about that. needed to own it. more about that. needed to own it. Another thing I want to say that on a Another thing I want to say that on a Another thing I want to say that on a lighter note, what I've been told for lighter note, what I've been told for lighter note, what I've been told for years because it gets back to that years because it gets back to that years because it gets back to that regulation regulation regulation >> is I get a face and they call it the >> is I get a face and they call it the >> is I get a face and they call it the face. You've got and and and they find face. You've got and and and they find face. You've got and and and they find they were able to go now, hey, you've they were able to go now, hey, you've they were able to go now, hey, you've got the face. I go, oh, I'm sorry. I'm got the face. I go, oh, I'm sorry. I'm got the face. I go, oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And the face I don't think I can sorry. And the face I don't think I can sorry. And the face I don't think I can I can completely replicate it, but I'm I can completely replicate it, but I'm I can completely replicate it, but I'm going to try it. And what what the going to try it. And what what the going to try it. And what what the bubble shows what I'm thinking is I'm bubble shows what I'm thinking is I'm bubble shows what I'm thinking is I'm I'm annoyed by this situation and I'm a I'm annoyed by this situation and I'm a I'm annoyed by this situation and I'm a little frustrated with you. But the face little frustrated with you. But the face little frustrated with you. But the face is this. is this. is this. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yeah, I'd be freaked out too fast. >> Yeah, I'd be freaked out too fast. >> Yeah, I'd be freaked out too fast. >> Right. And they're like, "What's with >> Right. And they're like, "What's with >> Right. And they're like, "What's with the face?" I'm like, "What do you mean?" the face?" I'm like, "What do you mean?" the face?" I'm like, "What do you mean?" [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> And and you know what I've kind of >> And and you know what I've kind of >> And and you know what I've kind of learned through healing is what happens learned through healing is what happens learned through healing is what happens is I go through this thing like I'm not is I go through this thing like I'm not is I go through this thing like I'm not I don't I'm not worthy of being I don't I'm not worthy of being I don't I'm not worthy of being frustrated with somebody. frustrated with somebody. frustrated with somebody. >> So I I hold it back and then by the time >> So I I hold it back and then by the time >> So I I hold it back and then by the time it comes out, it comes out like that. it comes out, it comes out like that. it comes out, it comes out like that. earlier if I just said, "Hey, this is earlier if I just said, "Hey, this is earlier if I just said, "Hey, this is kind of frustrating to me and I'm kind of frustrating to me and I'm kind of frustrating to me and I'm allowed to say that to you." But I allowed to say that to you." But I allowed to say that to you." But I always felt like I'm not supposed to be always felt like I'm not supposed to be always felt like I'm not supposed to be frustrated. I'm not supposed to do that frustrated. I'm not supposed to do that frustrated. I'm not supposed to do that >> cuz I didn't think I was worthy to say >> cuz I didn't think I was worthy to say >> cuz I didn't think I was worthy to say what you're doing is frustrating and what you're doing is frustrating and what you're doing is frustrating and then it would come out worse.

then it would come out worse. then it would come out worse. >> Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I'm >> Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I'm >> Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I'm just kind of framing this in real time, just kind of framing this in real time, just kind of framing this in real time, but like 20 years working with people, but like 20 years working with people, but like 20 years working with people, multiple decades. We've been part of our multiple decades. We've been part of our multiple decades. We've been part of our church for 30 years, so there's some church for 30 years, so there's some church for 30 years, so there's some three decade relationships. Of course, I three decade relationships. Of course, I three decade relationships. Of course, I was a lead pastor for 20 of those 30 was a lead pastor for 20 of those 30 was a lead pastor for 20 of those 30 years. So, you know, when you look at years. So, you know, when you look at years. So, you know, when you look at all of these relationships that know now all of these relationships that know now all of these relationships that know now go back decades, go back decades, go back decades, >> this is a long question, but I'll get to >> this is a long question, but I'll get to >> this is a long question, but I'll get to a question. You and I, when we first a question. You and I, when we first a question. You and I, when we first connected after lunch today, we're connected after lunch today, we're connected after lunch today, we're talking about our marriages. You and talking about our marriages. You and talking about our marriages. You and Laura have been married 33, Tony and I Laura have been married 33, Tony and I Laura have been married 33, Tony and I 35 years. And so, how's it going? And 35 years. And so, how's it going? And 35 years. And so, how's it going? And you're like, man, it's like the best you're like, man, it's like the best you're like, man, it's like the best it's ever been. And I would say we're it's ever been. And I would say we're it's ever been. And I would say we're there, too. But then you were quick to there, too. But then you were quick to there, too. But then you were quick to say, but people don't realize it was say, but people don't realize it was say, but people don't realize it was like valley and then hill and then like valley and then hill and then like valley and then hill and then valley and hill. Tony and I absolutely valley and hill. Tony and I absolutely valley and hill. Tony and I absolutely we're pretty public about the challenges we're pretty public about the challenges we're pretty public about the challenges that we've had together, but like staff that we've had together, but like staff that we've had together, but like staff relationships are the same thing. And relationships are the same thing. And relationships are the same thing. And you and Matt, who you work with, Sam and you and Matt, who you work with, Sam and you and Matt, who you work with, Sam and I who we work with, you know, we've had I who we work with, you know, we've had I who we work with, you know, we've had three decades of ups and downs together. three decades of ups and downs together. three decades of ups and downs together. And a lot of leaders, it's really easy And a lot of leaders, it's really easy And a lot of leaders, it's really easy if I just have my leadership hat on to if I just have my leadership hat on to if I just have my leadership hat on to think, well, there's a down in this think, well, there's a down in this think, well, there's a down in this relationship, so clearly this person relationship, so clearly this person relationship, so clearly this person needs to go. Oh, you you you really needs to go. Oh, you you you really needs to go. Oh, you you you really shouldn't do that in marriage. You can't shouldn't do that in marriage. You can't shouldn't do that in marriage. You can't do that in parenting. And what I'm do that in parenting. And what I'm do that in parenting. And what I'm realizing is all of these relationships realizing is all of these relationships realizing is all of these relationships that are now decades long have been that are now decades long have been that are now decades long have been through all kinds of tension points.

through all kinds of tension points. through all kinds of tension points. >> Exactly. And this is one of the things >> Exactly. And this is one of the things >> Exactly. And this is one of the things we talked about as a team recently. It's we talked about as a team recently. It's we talked about as a team recently. It's like after you've had a few levels of like after you've had a few levels of like after you've had a few levels of success, it's crazy. It's like you hit success, it's crazy. It's like you hit success, it's crazy. It's like you hit the next hill and you go, "Oh gosh, we the next hill and you go, "Oh gosh, we the next hill and you go, "Oh gosh, we shouldn't still be having hills to to shouldn't still be having hills to to shouldn't still be having hills to to climb now." climb now." climb now." >> Like are we not done with the conflict >> Like are we not done with the conflict >> Like are we not done with the conflict at the meetings? at the meetings? at the meetings? >> Right. Yeah. And so and it's and it's >> Right. Yeah. And so and it's and it's >> Right. Yeah. And so and it's and it's interesting like the first one you go interesting like the first one you go interesting like the first one you go well this is what you need to be well this is what you need to be well this is what you need to be successful and then you and the thing is successful and then you and the thing is successful and then you and the thing is it's the growth curve I remember hearing it's the growth curve I remember hearing it's the growth curve I remember hearing years ago where throughout life it goes years ago where throughout life it goes years ago where throughout life it goes like this and then it goes like this. like this and then it goes like this. like this and then it goes like this. There's these dips and that's where the There's these dips and that's where the There's these dips and that's where the next thing comes from. But there comes a next thing comes from. But there comes a next thing comes from. But there comes a point where you go and I I know point where you go and I I know point where you go and I I know marriages break up like this. People are marriages break up like this. People are marriages break up like this. People are like we've been married for 30 years. I like we've been married for 30 years. I like we've been married for 30 years. I can't believe we're going through this can't believe we're going through this can't believe we're going through this now. now. now. >> And it's like and people go I'm out. >> And it's like and people go I'm out. >> And it's like and people go I'm out. >> And it's like no you were just about at >> And it's like no you were just about at >> And it's like no you were just about at the next one. And there's a part of me, the next one. And there's a part of me, the next one. And there's a part of me, Pat, that says I should be smarter than Pat, that says I should be smarter than Pat, that says I should be smarter than this now to go through another valley. I this now to go through another valley. I this now to go through another valley. I should I've read enough books, listened should I've read enough books, listened should I've read enough books, listened to enough podcasts, met with enough to enough podcasts, met with enough to enough podcasts, met with enough enough worldclass leaders that I should enough worldclass leaders that I should enough worldclass leaders that I should be able to figure this out and I haven't be able to figure this out and I haven't be able to figure this out and I haven't got it figured out yet. Do you struggle got it figured out yet. Do you struggle got it figured out yet. Do you struggle with that? Of course. And uh it's like with that? Of course. And uh it's like with that? Of course. And uh it's like I am not God. He is. I am a sinner. I am I am not God. He is. I am a sinner. I am I am not God. He is. I am a sinner. I am flawed and I will be until the day I flawed and I will be until the day I flawed and I will be until the day I die. And each time that happens, I have die. And each time that happens, I have die. And each time that happens, I have to go, "Wow, I learned a I had to learn to go, "Wow, I learned a I had to learn to go, "Wow, I learned a I had to learn a new or a new thing or relearn an old a new or a new thing or relearn an old a new or a new thing or relearn an old thing again." Um, it happens every day thing again." Um, it happens every day thing again." Um, it happens every day in small ways, every year in a few big in small ways, every year in a few big in small ways, every year in a few big ones. And I think that maybe we have to ones. And I think that maybe we have to ones. And I think that maybe we have to reset our expectations to think I mean reset our expectations to think I mean reset our expectations to think I mean like I honestly think I've learned more,

like I honestly think I've learned more, like I honestly think I've learned more, in fact, I have in the last year of my in fact, I have in the last year of my in fact, I have in the last year of my life than any life be any any year life than any life be any any year life than any life be any any year before. before. before. >> How so? Well, I went through a a a >> How so? Well, I went through a a a >> How so? Well, I went through a a a healing process where I um I stepped out healing process where I um I stepped out healing process where I um I stepped out of work for a number of months and did of work for a number of months and did of work for a number of months and did full-time prayer, spiritual direction, full-time prayer, spiritual direction, full-time prayer, spiritual direction, therapy, and a lot of alone time. therapy, and a lot of alone time. therapy, and a lot of alone time. And I did not realize how much had And I did not realize how much had And I did not realize how much had happened in my life that I needed to happened in my life that I needed to happened in my life that I needed to deal with. Well, if that happened at age deal with. Well, if that happened at age deal with. Well, if that happened at age 59, 59, 59, then what else do I have? You know, and then what else do I have? You know, and then what else do I have? You know, and and you know, you hear about this in the and you know, you hear about this in the and you know, you hear about this in the Bible, people like Ken Blanchard used to Bible, people like Ken Blanchard used to Bible, people like Ken Blanchard used to always say, "No, nobody did anything always say, "No, nobody did anything always say, "No, nobody did anything until they were 70." You know what until they were 70." You know what until they were 70." You know what [laughter] I mean? [laughter] I mean? [laughter] I mean? >> And yet we have this idea that, oh no, >> And yet we have this idea that, oh no, >> And yet we have this idea that, oh no, all the learning is done, all the learning is done, all the learning is done, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And so when we make a mistake, when we >> And so when we make a mistake, when we >> And so when we make a mistake, when we get older, we think, oh man, what a get older, we think, oh man, what a get older, we think, oh man, what a loser I am. It's like, no, there's more loser I am. It's like, no, there's more loser I am. It's like, no, there's more learning. And even in my faith, I feel learning. And even in my faith, I feel learning. And even in my faith, I feel like I'm I I know God better than I've like I'm I I know God better than I've like I'm I I know God better than I've ever known him. But I also realize how ever known him. But I also realize how ever known him. But I also realize how little I know him. whereas 20 years ago, little I know him. whereas 20 years ago, little I know him. whereas 20 years ago, I'd have probably thought, well, I'm I'd have probably thought, well, I'm I'd have probably thought, well, I'm pretty close. [laughter] pretty close. [laughter] pretty close. [laughter] This episode is brought to you by The This episode is brought to you by The This episode is brought to you by The Art of Leadership Live. Hey, if you're Art of Leadership Live. Hey, if you're Art of Leadership Live. Hey, if you're leading a church and you know there's leading a church and you know there's leading a church and you know there's more in you, I believe there's more in more in you, I believe there's more in more in you, I believe there's more in you and more ahead for your team, I want you and more ahead for your team, I want you and more ahead for your team, I want to personally invite you to something to personally invite you to something to personally invite you to something special. September 21st to 23rd, 2026, special. September 21st to 23rd, 2026, special. September 21st to 23rd, 2026, I'm hosting the Art of Leadership Live.

I'm hosting the Art of Leadership Live. I'm hosting the Art of Leadership Live. This year, it's in Nashville, Tennessee. This year, it's in Nashville, Tennessee. This year, it's in Nashville, Tennessee. This isn't a conference where you just This isn't a conference where you just This isn't a conference where you just sit in a chair for eight hours, listen sit in a chair for eight hours, listen sit in a chair for eight hours, listen to talking heads, take notes, and hope to talking heads, take notes, and hope to talking heads, take notes, and hope something sticks. This is highly something sticks. This is highly something sticks. This is highly interactive. It's practical. It's interactive. It's practical. It's interactive. It's practical. It's intentionally designed to help you make intentionally designed to help you make intentionally designed to help you make real progress on the leadership real progress on the leadership real progress on the leadership challenges you're facing right now. So, challenges you're facing right now. So, challenges you're facing right now. So, what do we do? Well, we combine focused what do we do? Well, we combine focused what do we do? Well, we combine focused teaching, meaningful conversations with teaching, meaningful conversations with teaching, meaningful conversations with other leaders, and built-in space to other leaders, and built-in space to other leaders, and built-in space to think, process, and actually apply what think, process, and actually apply what think, process, and actually apply what you're learning. So you don't just leave you're learning. So you don't just leave you're learning. So you don't just leave inspired, you leave with clarity and inspired, you leave with clarity and inspired, you leave with clarity and next steps and you do it in community. next steps and you do it in community. next steps and you do it in community. So I'll tell you this, the leaders who So I'll tell you this, the leaders who So I'll tell you this, the leaders who gathered last year absolutely blew me gathered last year absolutely blew me gathered last year absolutely blew me away. The depth of the conversations, we away. The depth of the conversations, we away. The depth of the conversations, we have a lot of conversations, the honesty have a lot of conversations, the honesty have a lot of conversations, the honesty in the room, the momentum people left in the room, the momentum people left in the room, the momentum people left with, that's what makes this event so with, that's what makes this event so with, that's what makes this event so special. So I can't wait to do it again. special. So I can't wait to do it again. special. So I can't wait to do it again. This time we're in Nashville. One This time we're in Nashville. One This time we're in Nashville. One important note, super early bird pricing important note, super early bird pricing important note, super early bird pricing is almost gone. So, if you've been is almost gone. So, if you've been is almost gone. So, if you've been thinking about applying, you have to thinking about applying, you have to thinking about applying, you have to apply to get in. Now is the time. Once apply to get in. Now is the time. Once apply to get in. Now is the time. Once it expires, rates go up for good. So, it expires, rates go up for good. So, it expires, rates go up for good. So, visit the arttoofleershiplive.com visit the arttoofleershiplive.com visit the arttoofleershiplive.com to secure the very best pricing. Again, to secure the very best pricing. Again, to secure the very best pricing. Again, that's the art of leadershiplive.com.

that's the art of leadershiplive.com. that's the art of leadershiplive.com. I would love to see you in Nashville I would love to see you in Nashville I would love to see you in Nashville this September. I'm glad you raised that this September. I'm glad you raised that this September. I'm glad you raised that cuz I wanted to talk to you about that. cuz I wanted to talk to you about that. cuz I wanted to talk to you about that. You took a I guess would you call it a You took a I guess would you call it a You took a I guess would you call it a sbatical? Was it a sabbatical? sbatical? Was it a sabbatical? sbatical? Was it a sabbatical? >> Well, it's a bad word. I I joke about it >> Well, it's a bad word. I I joke about it >> Well, it's a bad word. I I joke about it because I didn't golf or or because I didn't golf or or because I didn't golf or or >> You didn't have any fun. No, it was >> You didn't have any fun. No, it was >> You didn't have any fun. No, it was dark. dark. dark. >> Really dark. >> Really dark. >> Really dark. >> But God was there with me the whole >> But God was there with me the whole >> But God was there with me the whole time, but it was the hardest thing I'd time, but it was the hardest thing I'd time, but it was the hardest thing I'd ever gone through in my life. Let's back ever gone through in my life. Let's back ever gone through in my life. Let's back up if you to the extent that you're up if you to the extent that you're up if you to the extent that you're comfortable talking about it. What comfortable talking about it. What comfortable talking about it. What >> like was it just on the calendar or were >> like was it just on the calendar or were >> like was it just on the calendar or were there factors that led you to think, there factors that led you to think, there factors that led you to think, "Oh, I need to get away." Or was it an "Oh, I need to get away." Or was it an "Oh, I need to get away." Or was it an intervention where people said, "You intervention where people said, "You intervention where people said, "You have to get away?" have to get away?" have to get away?" >> Well, there was all of those things. I >> Well, there was all of those things. I >> Well, there was all of those things. I knew I needed to, but I didn't know I knew I needed to, but I didn't know I knew I needed to, but I didn't know I could. And of course, you always can. could. And of course, you always can. could. And of course, you always can. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> You know what I mean? It's like, >> You know what I mean? It's like, >> You know what I mean? It's like, >> so you knew you needed to. Let's stop >> so you knew you needed to. Let's stop >> so you knew you needed to. Let's stop right there for a minute. you knew you right there for a minute. you knew you right there for a minute. you knew you needed to, but you didn't know that you needed to, but you didn't know that you needed to, but you didn't know that you could. You're talking to every single could. You're talking to every single could. You're talking to every single leader leader leader >> out there right now who's like, "Well, I >> out there right now who's like, "Well, I >> out there right now who's like, "Well, I would, but you don't understand next would, but you don't understand next would, but you don't understand next month and the month after and the month month and the month after and the month month and the month after and the month after, and then I got this book after, and then I got this book after, and then I got this book deadline. I got to write sermons." The deadline. I got to write sermons." The deadline. I got to write sermons." The >> you know, and I think I think >> you know, and I think I think >> you know, and I think I think circumstances sometimes, you know, what circumstances sometimes, you know, what circumstances sometimes, you know, what do they say? Um, what's the motherhood do they say? Um, what's the motherhood do they say? Um, what's the motherhood of is necessity is the motherhood of of is necessity is the motherhood of of is necessity is the motherhood of invention.

invention. invention. >> Necessity is mother invention. Yeah. >> Necessity is mother invention. Yeah. >> Necessity is mother invention. Yeah. >> And I think sometimes circumstances make >> And I think sometimes circumstances make >> And I think sometimes circumstances make you go, "Okay, I have to." So my my you go, "Okay, I have to." So my my you go, "Okay, I have to." So my my youngest son had gone away to college. youngest son had gone away to college. youngest son had gone away to college. >> So big moment. >> So big moment. >> So big moment. >> So for the longest time you're holding >> So for the longest time you're holding >> So for the longest time you're holding on. You're just like, "Hey, whatever I on. You're just like, "Hey, whatever I on. You're just like, "Hey, whatever I have, I have to make sure." So now I'm have, I have to make sure." So now I'm have, I have to make sure." So now I'm an empty neester. And that wasn't just an empty neester. And that wasn't just an empty neester. And that wasn't just that it was that was hard. It was just that it was that was hard. It was just that it was that was hard. It was just that okay, I don't have an excuse cuz that okay, I don't have an excuse cuz that okay, I don't have an excuse cuz the last thing I would want to do is the last thing I would want to do is the last thing I would want to do is check out in the middle of his final check out in the middle of his final check out in the middle of his final year. year. year. >> So he's away at college >> So he's away at college >> So he's away at college and there were other things going on. We and there were other things going on. We and there were other things going on. We were preparing to move were preparing to move were preparing to move >> and there were all kinds of other things >> and there were all kinds of other things >> and there were all kinds of other things going on in my life and in in the going on in my life and in in the going on in my life and in in the business. And I finally I really hit the business. And I finally I really hit the business. And I finally I really hit the wall wall wall and the people I worked with and my wife and the people I worked with and my wife and the people I worked with and my wife were like, "No, this is the time." were like, "No, this is the time." were like, "No, this is the time." >> Really? So they saw it? >> Really? So they saw it? >> Really? So they saw it? >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> What What did the wall look like for >> What What did the wall look like for >> What What did the wall look like for you? you? you? >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, it it looks like um desperation it it looks like um desperation it it looks like um desperation and um hopelessness. and um hopelessness. and um hopelessness. Um Um Um and and for my case, I just had, you and and for my case, I just had, you and and for my case, I just had, you know, Henry Cloud, I can't believe we know, Henry Cloud, I can't believe we know, Henry Cloud, I can't believe we were talking this morning. 5 years ago, were talking this morning. 5 years ago, were talking this morning. 5 years ago, I said to Henry, "Hey, Henry, what's I said to Henry, "Hey, Henry, what's I said to Henry, "Hey, Henry, what's going on with me?" And he said, "Pat, I going on with me?" And he said, "Pat, I going on with me?" And he said, "Pat, I think you got some childhood wounds you think you got some childhood wounds you think you got some childhood wounds you haven't dealt with, which began me the haven't dealt with, which began me the haven't dealt with, which began me the process of looking at those and I process of looking at those and I process of looking at those and I finally got to that place." It's like, finally got to that place." It's like, finally got to that place." It's like, "Okay, now I have to go all the way down "Okay, now I have to go all the way down "Okay, now I have to go all the way down there."

there." there." >> So, you went into a deep dive. >> So, you went into a deep dive. >> So, you went into a deep dive. >> Yes. And literally for 5 months, I spent >> Yes. And literally for 5 months, I spent >> Yes. And literally for 5 months, I spent most of it by myself doing spiritual most of it by myself doing spiritual most of it by myself doing spiritual direction, prayer, watching every direction, prayer, watching every direction, prayer, watching every YouTube video about spiritual growth and YouTube video about spiritual growth and YouTube video about spiritual growth and personal growth and going to therapists personal growth and going to therapists personal growth and going to therapists and it was like and and disconnected and it was like and and disconnected and it was like and and disconnected from work. So scary. No, it is from work. So scary. No, it is from work. So scary. No, it is terrifying. I'm glad you use that word. terrifying. I'm glad you use that word. terrifying. I'm glad you use that word. >> Oh, why was >> Oh, why was >> Oh, why was >> untethered? Why was it scary? >> untethered? Why was it scary? >> untethered? Why was it scary? >> Because I'd never done it in my life. >> Because I'd never done it in my life. >> Because I'd never done it in my life. Cuz one, I had to face some things about Cuz one, I had to face some things about Cuz one, I had to face some things about my past and I had no, my past and I had no, my past and I had no, you know, swim lanes. I was out there in you know, swim lanes. I was out there in you know, swim lanes. I was out there in the dark in the water floating in the the dark in the water floating in the the dark in the water floating in the ocean not knowing like I didn't have any ocean not knowing like I didn't have any ocean not knowing like I didn't have any day schedule. I didn't have anybody day schedule. I didn't have anybody day schedule. I didn't have anybody around. I needed to go through it like around. I needed to go through it like around. I needed to go through it like that. a God and but he said I'll take that. a God and but he said I'll take that. a God and but he said I'll take you through this but you know it's a you through this but you know it's a you through this but you know it's a dark night of the soul. dark night of the soul. dark night of the soul. >> So your wife, your team members tap you >> So your wife, your team members tap you >> So your wife, your team members tap you on the shoulder. What are they saying? on the shoulder. What are they saying? on the shoulder. What are they saying? >> Yeah. It's like you it's time to to deal >> Yeah. It's like you it's time to to deal >> Yeah. It's like you it's time to to deal with this with this with this >> to do this. How was that showing up in >> to do this. How was that showing up in >> to do this. How was that showing up in your day-to-day work? What was going on your day-to-day work? What was going on your day-to-day work? What was going on inside you before?

inside you before? inside you before? >> I was uh I was being getting very >> I was uh I was being getting very >> I was uh I was being getting very emotional. Um, and I had a few moments emotional. Um, and I had a few moments emotional. Um, and I had a few moments of tears that were bigger than of tears that were bigger than of tears that were bigger than understandable. You know, all people understandable. You know, all people understandable. You know, all people have tears. And there was way more have tears. And there was way more have tears. And there was way more there. And it it had nothing to do with there. And it it had nothing to do with there. And it it had nothing to do with work. It had nothing to do with my work. It had nothing to do with my work. It had nothing to do with my marriage. It had nothing to do with my marriage. It had nothing to do with my marriage. It had nothing to do with my sons. Although I thought it might have. sons. Although I thought it might have. sons. Although I thought it might have. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. >> Those are not the issues. >> Those are not the issues. >> Those are not the issues. >> No, they're triggers. Something goes >> No, they're triggers. Something goes >> No, they're triggers. Something goes wrong at work. Something goes wrong with wrong at work. Something goes wrong with wrong at work. Something goes wrong with Laura. Something goes wrong with my Laura. Something goes wrong with my Laura. Something goes wrong with my boys. And then it triggers the deeper boys. And then it triggers the deeper boys. And then it triggers the deeper issues that I'd never really fully dealt issues that I'd never really fully dealt issues that I'd never really fully dealt with. So that's what I did for five and with. So that's what I did for five and with. So that's what I did for five and six months. I just went deep, deep, six months. I just went deep, deep, six months. I just went deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. And I'm still in the deep, deep, deep. And I'm still in the deep, deep, deep. And I'm still in the process, but it's like, whoa. I went process, but it's like, whoa. I went process, but it's like, whoa. I went through this really deep thing where I through this really deep thing where I through this really deep thing where I had to confront things and deal with had to confront things and deal with had to confront things and deal with them and literally feel the feelings them and literally feel the feelings them and literally feel the feelings that I'd never allowed myself to feel that I'd never allowed myself to feel that I'd never allowed myself to feel since I was 5 years old. since I was 5 years old. since I was 5 years old. >> What were some of those feelings? Oh, >> What were some of those feelings? Oh, >> What were some of those feelings? Oh, that um and and these are very common that um and and these are very common that um and and these are very common among a lot of people, but but they're among a lot of people, but but they're among a lot of people, but but they're different in everybody, but one that I different in everybody, but one that I different in everybody, but one that I needed to to earn everything, needed to to earn everything, needed to to earn everything, that I I was never enough, and that I that I I was never enough, and that I that I I was never enough, and that I felt unseen and un affirmed, and that felt unseen and un affirmed, and that felt unseen and un affirmed, and that the only way to fix that was to be the only way to fix that was to be the only way to fix that was to be perfect.

perfect. perfect. And I can't tell you how many high And I can't tell you how many high And I can't tell you how many high achievers I talk to who say, "Oh, I've achievers I talk to who say, "Oh, I've achievers I talk to who say, "Oh, I've told people my story like quickly and told people my story like quickly and told people my story like quickly and they're like,"Oh, yeah, I never feel they're like,"Oh, yeah, I never feel they're like,"Oh, yeah, I never feel like I'm enough. like I'm enough. like I'm enough. And and I actually think when somebody And and I actually think when somebody And and I actually think when somebody says, "Hey, I'm a high achiever, I says, "Hey, I'm a high achiever, I says, "Hey, I'm a high achiever, I almost to a person, it's like, oh, almost to a person, it's like, oh, almost to a person, it's like, oh, that's a wound that's a wound that's a wound because we all should be like, I love because we all should be like, I love because we all should be like, I love this and I love to do this, but I don't this and I love to do this, but I don't this and I love to do this, but I don't have to do it." But there's so many have to do it." But there's so many have to do it." But there's so many people that have to get to the next people that have to get to the next people that have to get to the next stage and have to get to the next stage. stage and have to get to the next stage. stage and have to get to the next stage. And we're all hoping that, well, at one And we're all hoping that, well, at one And we're all hoping that, well, at one point I'll feel loved for that and I'll point I'll feel loved for that and I'll point I'll feel loved for that and I'll be done. And it just never happens be done. And it just never happens be done. And it just never happens unless we know the love of God. And if unless we know the love of God. And if unless we know the love of God. And if we didn't get that when we were little we didn't get that when we were little we didn't get that when we were little and God bless my parents, but they and God bless my parents, but they and God bless my parents, but they didn't know how to do that. If you don't didn't know how to do that. If you don't didn't know how to do that. If you don't get that when you're little, you're get that when you're little, you're get that when you're little, you're looking for a substitute for the rest of looking for a substitute for the rest of looking for a substitute for the rest of your life. Praise God that I didn't find your life. Praise God that I didn't find your life. Praise God that I didn't find seek it in other women or in drugs or seek it in other women or in drugs or seek it in other women or in drugs or alcohol. But I have no judgment for alcohol. But I have no judgment for alcohol. But I have no judgment for people who did. Cuz usually people who did. Cuz usually people who did. Cuz usually >> you get empathy, don't you? >> you get empathy, don't you? >> you get empathy, don't you? >> Totally. I don't have any judgment for >> Totally. I don't have any judgment for >> Totally. I don't have any judgment for people who go through those things when people who go through those things when people who go through those things when they realize I'm doing that cuz I I'm they realize I'm doing that cuz I I'm they realize I'm doing that cuz I I'm trying to fill up that hole that only trying to fill up that hole that only trying to fill up that hole that only God can fill and receiving his love. And God can fill and receiving his love. And God can fill and receiving his love. And so I mean I'm what a gratitude. to so I mean I'm what a gratitude. to so I mean I'm what a gratitude. to think, God, you didn't hurt my my family think, God, you didn't hurt my my family think, God, you didn't hurt my my family very like I mean, I was not all the very like I mean, I was not all the very like I mean, I was not all the person I need to be, but I didn't cheat person I need to be, but I didn't cheat person I need to be, but I didn't cheat on my wife or do something to the kids on my wife or do something to the kids on my wife or do something to the kids or hurt the family and and and and or or hurt the family and and and and or or hurt the family and and and and or gamble away all of our money or take gamble away all of our money or take gamble away all of our money or take drugs or alcohol or crash the car, but drugs or alcohol or crash the car, but drugs or alcohol or crash the car, but it was the same. So, I have no judgment it was the same. So, I have no judgment it was the same. So, I have no judgment for people who go through those things for people who go through those things for people who go through those things knowing that they're just wounded.

knowing that they're just wounded. knowing that they're just wounded. >> So, you felt that the performance, what >> So, you felt that the performance, what >> So, you felt that the performance, what else did you discover? Um, wow. Those were the biggies. I know I wow. Those were the biggies. I know I know there's more, but um, that is that know there's more, but um, that is that know there's more, but um, that is that is enough, man. is enough, man. is enough, man. >> Yeah. And and that what I needed to do >> Yeah. And and that what I needed to do >> Yeah. And and that what I needed to do is know that I'm a noun, not a verb, you is know that I'm a noun, not a verb, you is know that I'm a noun, not a verb, you know, that I'm God's son just cuz I am. know, that I'm God's son just cuz I am. know, that I'm God's son just cuz I am. And like I have I don't want to get And like I have I don't want to get And like I have I don't want to get teary here, but I have this priest teary here, but I have this priest teary here, but I have this priest friend who says to me now, you know, God friend who says to me now, you know, God friend who says to me now, you know, God love like, "Does God love you?" And I'm love like, "Does God love you?" And I'm love like, "Does God love you?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I know it. Sometimes I like, "Yeah, I know it. Sometimes I like, "Yeah, I know it. Sometimes I don't feel it. He talks about that don't feel it. He talks about that don't feel it. He talks about that distance. And so I just need to realize, distance. And so I just need to realize, distance. And so I just need to realize, no, it's not because of what I do. It's no, it's not because of what I do. It's no, it's not because of what I do. It's because he made me. That's what the because he made me. That's what the because he made me. That's what the priest always says. Well, he made you priest always says. Well, he made you priest always says. Well, he made you and he loves you just because you exist. and he loves you just because you exist. and he loves you just because you exist. That's not easy. That hasn't been easy That's not easy. That hasn't been easy That's not easy. That hasn't been easy in my life to receive. You know what's in my life to receive. You know what's in my life to receive. You know what's funny? I receive I I see it in others. I funny? I receive I I see it in others. I funny? I receive I I see it in others. I mean, I can sit here with you and go, mean, I can sit here with you and go, mean, I can sit here with you and go, "Oh, he totally loves you. I can totally "Oh, he totally loves you. I can totally "Oh, he totally loves you. I can totally see why he delights in you. But if I see why he delights in you. But if I see why he delights in you. But if I didn't receive that as a kid, I'm like, didn't receive that as a kid, I'm like, didn't receive that as a kid, I'm like, I'm just not sure it's true for me. But I'm just not sure it's true for me. But I'm just not sure it's true for me. But I'm coming to realize that more and I'm coming to realize that more and I'm coming to realize that more and more. It's a process. But but totally more. It's a process. But but totally more. It's a process. But but totally compared to where I was a year ago. Oh, compared to where I was a year ago. Oh, compared to where I was a year ago. Oh, thank God.

thank God. thank God. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> we didn't know we were going to talk >> we didn't know we were going to talk >> we didn't know we were going to talk about this. about this. about this. >> Oh, we did not know. And thank you for >> Oh, we did not know. And thank you for >> Oh, we did not know. And thank you for opening up opening up opening up >> because we've all been there. >> because we've all been there. >> because we've all been there. Performance uh as a substitute for love. Performance uh as a substitute for love. Performance uh as a substitute for love. That's my wound as well. That's my wound as well. That's my wound as well. >> Yeah. And and people will go, "Yeah, but >> Yeah. And and people will go, "Yeah, but >> Yeah. And and people will go, "Yeah, but look, it worked." Like, so I had OCD look, it worked." Like, so I had OCD look, it worked." Like, so I had OCD since I was a little kid. But that's since I was a little kid. But that's since I was a little kid. But that's just a form of I realized and the just a form of I realized and the just a form of I realized and the clinicians back then are like you should clinicians back then are like you should clinicians back then are like you should take this drug and it's like no there's take this drug and it's like no there's take this drug and it's like no there's wounds now they never talked about like wounds now they never talked about like wounds now they never talked about like why would you do that? Well it's because why would you do that? Well it's because why would you do that? Well it's because I wanted control and I needed some I wanted control and I needed some I wanted control and I needed some control in a world where I didn't have control in a world where I didn't have control in a world where I didn't have any. And so I learned to be a I got any. And so I learned to be a I got any. And so I learned to be a I got straight A's in school and I was a straight A's in school and I was a straight A's in school and I was a distance runner and and people are like distance runner and and people are like distance runner and and people are like people used to say well that OCD look it people used to say well that OCD look it people used to say well that OCD look it it makes you a good distance runner. You it makes you a good distance runner. You it makes you a good distance runner. You got good grades and you're like oh it's got good grades and you're like oh it's got good grades and you're like oh it's not worth it. [laughter] not worth it. [laughter] not worth it. [laughter] >> What does OCD look like for you or did >> What does OCD look like for you or did >> What does OCD look like for you or did it look like for you? Well, it's changed it look like for you? Well, it's changed it look like for you? Well, it's changed over the years, but it I used to wash my over the years, but it I used to wash my over the years, but it I used to wash my hands all the time and then I'd count hands all the time and then I'd count hands all the time and then I'd count things all the time and I would I would things all the time and I would I would things all the time and I would I would have to touch things a certain number of have to touch things a certain number of have to touch things a certain number of I mean, it's it's evolved over the I mean, it's it's evolved over the I mean, it's it's evolved over the years. Today, what really remains from years. Today, what really remains from years. Today, what really remains from it is I have these kind of um un like it is I have these kind of um un like it is I have these kind of um un like subconscious things I do and it's so fun subconscious things I do and it's so fun subconscious things I do and it's so fun cuz I like you may have seen me do it.

cuz I like you may have seen me do it. cuz I like you may have seen me do it. We drove over here today We drove over here today We drove over here today >> and I do this on the steering wheel. I >> and I do this on the steering wheel. I >> and I do this on the steering wheel. I touch the steering wheel and my hand touch the steering wheel and my hand touch the steering wheel and my hand like I tap my hand and I go like this like I tap my hand and I go like this like I tap my hand and I go like this and I think it's and I think it's and I think it's >> for it on the way home. Yeah, cuz my >> for it on the way home. Yeah, cuz my >> for it on the way home. Yeah, cuz my kids will go, "Yeah, you do that all the kids will go, "Yeah, you do that all the kids will go, "Yeah, you do that all the time, Dad." But I used to do those time, Dad." But I used to do those time, Dad." But I used to do those things consciously, things consciously, things consciously, >> like I have to go walk through the door >> like I have to go walk through the door >> like I have to go walk through the door again because otherwise again because otherwise again because otherwise >> something bad will happen >> something bad will happen >> something bad will happen >> to to me or to the world or to my >> to to me or to the world or to my >> to to me or to the world or to my family. family. family. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Like I remember once when I was >> Yeah. Like I remember once when I was >> Yeah. Like I remember once when I was when I was first started my job and I when I was first started my job and I when I was first started my job and I had this my whole life um had this my whole life um had this my whole life um taking my tie off and retying it eight taking my tie off and retying it eight taking my tie off and retying it eight times cuz eight was a good number. Do times cuz eight was a good number. Do times cuz eight was a good number. Do you know what it's like when you get to you know what it's like when you get to you know what it's like when you get to the fifth one and you're standing there the fifth one and you're standing there the fifth one and you're standing there going, "I can't believe I'm doing this. going, "I can't believe I'm doing this. going, "I can't believe I'm doing this. This is so stupid. Just put the leave This is so stupid. Just put the leave This is so stupid. Just put the leave the tie on and you're untying it and the tie on and you're untying it and the tie on and you're untying it and you're tying it again you're tying it again you're tying it again that it's it's cruel. It's a cruel that it's it's cruel. It's a cruel that it's it's cruel. It's a cruel disease. disease. disease. Praise God for healing. Praise God for healing. Praise God for healing. It's hard. You know, I I can see in It's hard. You know, I I can see in It's hard. You know, I I can see in myself. I don't know. It was weird. I I myself. I don't know. It was weird. I I myself. I don't know. It was weird. I I think, you know, I joke that I'm OCD. We think, you know, I joke that I'm OCD. We think, you know, I joke that I'm OCD. We always joke about these things, right?

always joke about these things, right? always joke about these things, right? But I'm more like just everything has to But I'm more like just everything has to But I'm more like just everything has to be neat, tidy. Drives Tony crazy be neat, tidy. Drives Tony crazy be neat, tidy. Drives Tony crazy sometimes. sometimes. sometimes. >> My wife and I are that way, too. I like >> My wife and I are that way, too. I like >> My wife and I are that way, too. I like I like a minimalist, clean house. I like a minimalist, clean house. I like a minimalist, clean house. >> I have beautiful offices. We toured >> I have beautiful offices. We toured >> I have beautiful offices. We toured them. They're gorgeous. them. They're gorgeous. them. They're gorgeous. >> Oh, you should. And at home, and I love >> Oh, you should. And at home, and I love >> Oh, you should. And at home, and I love my wife, and she we we know our my wife, and she we we know our my wife, and she we we know our personalities, and I I delight in her personalities, and I I delight in her personalities, and I I delight in her messiness now. I mean, I really do. I'm messiness now. I mean, I really do. I'm messiness now. I mean, I really do. I'm like, like, like, >> you're so progress. >> you're so progress. >> you're so progress. >> But then we have parts of the house I'm >> But then we have parts of the house I'm >> But then we have parts of the house I'm like, could we please just keep these like, could we please just keep these like, could we please just keep these rooms clean and she [laughter] we laugh rooms clean and she [laughter] we laugh rooms clean and she [laughter] we laugh about it. So, I do like that. about it. So, I do like that. about it. So, I do like that. independent of my OCD, I prefer a a independent of my OCD, I prefer a a independent of my OCD, I prefer a a clutter-free world. But anyway, you were clutter-free world. But anyway, you were clutter-free world. But anyway, you were saying about saying about saying about >> Yeah. No, I I could see myself like I >> Yeah. No, I I could see myself like I >> Yeah. No, I I could see myself like I remember walking on sidewalks and having remember walking on sidewalks and having remember walking on sidewalks and having to touch the crack between the different to touch the crack between the different to touch the crack between the different slabs slabs slabs >> very >> very >> very >> and thinking bad things would happen to >> and thinking bad things would happen to >> and thinking bad things would happen to my mom or bad things I've never talked my mom or bad things I've never talked my mom or bad things I've never talked about this before. Ever. about this before. Ever. about this before. Ever. >> Did it ever did any of those continue as >> Did it ever did any of those continue as >> Did it ever did any of those continue as you got older? you got older? you got older? >> They actually went away. See, most kids >> They actually went away. See, most kids >> They actually went away. See, most kids have that when they're young and and and have that when they're young and and and have that when they're young and and and when you have some of these other when you have some of these other when you have some of these other things, you don't let go. things, you don't let go. things, you don't let go. >> But I realized my clean compulsion, some >> But I realized my clean compulsion, some >> But I realized my clean compulsion, some of that I think is epigenetic. Like I've of that I think is epigenetic. Like I've of that I think is epigenetic. Like I've I've gone to Holland and realized, oh, I've gone to Holland and realized, oh, I've gone to Holland and realized, oh, they really are insanely clean. Like they really are insanely clean. Like they really are insanely clean. Like insanely clean. And I'm not like using insanely clean. And I'm not like using insanely clean. And I'm not like using hand sanitizer and like disinfecting the hand sanitizer and like disinfecting the hand sanitizer and like disinfecting the room before I walk into it. That's not room before I walk into it. That's not room before I walk into it. That's not it. It's just like it. It's just like it. It's just like >> a mess is a mess and I can't >> a mess is a mess and I can't >> a mess is a mess and I can't >> I can't stand it. And I find most people >> I can't stand it. And I find most people >> I can't stand it. And I find most people at the top, you've worked with the top at the top, you've worked with the top at the top, you've worked with the top CEOs in the world for decades now, CEOs in the world for decades now, CEOs in the world for decades now, they're driven like that. Yeah.

they're driven like that. Yeah. they're driven like that. Yeah. >> I rarely, once in a while, I had a prof >> I rarely, once in a while, I had a prof >> I rarely, once in a while, I had a prof in law school who had an office that in law school who had an office that in law school who had an office that looked like an episode of hoarders, like looked like an episode of hoarders, like looked like an episode of hoarders, like papers from the papers from the papers from the >> That's my wife. >> That's my wife. >> That's my wife. >> Oh, really? >> Oh, really? >> Oh, really? >> Oh, yeah. And she's brilliant and >> Oh, yeah. And she's brilliant and >> Oh, yeah. And she's brilliant and wonderful and creative. Yeah. wonderful and creative. Yeah. wonderful and creative. Yeah. >> And her office [laughter] >> And her office [laughter] >> And her office [laughter] just piles everywhere. Right. just piles everywhere. Right. just piles everywhere. Right. >> It's delightful now. >> It's delightful now. >> It's delightful now. >> It Good. How did you get to the fact >> It Good. How did you get to the fact >> It Good. How did you get to the fact that that is delightful? Cuz I'm not that that is delightful? Cuz I'm not that that is delightful? Cuz I'm not there. because I realized, man, I love there. because I realized, man, I love there. because I realized, man, I love her and I love everything about her and her and I love everything about her and her and I love everything about her and even and some of it is something she even and some of it is something she even and some of it is something she wants to get better at. Some of it she wants to get better at. Some of it she wants to get better at. Some of it she doesn't have to, but I'm gonna love all doesn't have to, but I'm gonna love all doesn't have to, but I'm gonna love all of her. Okay. So, so you know, working of her. Okay. So, so you know, working of her. Okay. So, so you know, working genius, we have the working genius. genius, we have the working genius. genius, we have the working genius. >> So, Laura is is a wii in working genius. >> So, Laura is is a wii in working genius. >> So, Laura is is a wii in working genius. So, that's the highest invention. Wonder So, that's the highest invention. Wonder So, that's the highest invention. Wonder and invention. It's like in the clouds and invention. It's like in the clouds and invention. It's like in the clouds and peeking her head out of the clouds. and peeking her head out of the clouds. and peeking her head out of the clouds. >> Tony has wonder and I'm like, sorry, >> Tony has wonder and I'm like, sorry, >> Tony has wonder and I'm like, sorry, what were we talking about? And can we what were we talking about? And can we what were we talking about? And can we just get to practical? just get to practical? just get to practical? >> And I'm next. I'm an intro I mean an not >> And I'm next. I'm an intro I mean an not >> And I'm next. I'm an intro I mean an not an introvert in innovation like her and an introvert in innovation like her and an introvert in innovation like her and discernment. So I'm like you ID. discernment. So I'm like you ID. discernment. So I'm like you ID. >> Yeah, we're both IDs. >> Yeah, we're both IDs. >> Yeah, we're both IDs. >> Well, so Laura is even less practical >> Well, so Laura is even less practical >> Well, so Laura is even less practical than I am and I'm not practical than I am and I'm not practical than I am and I'm not practical [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] and and but when we were when when we and and but when we were when when we and and but when we were when when we were raising the kids, you know, I were raising the kids, you know, I were raising the kids, you know, I didn't know what working genius was. And didn't know what working genius was. And didn't know what working genius was. And she took on the duties of a lot of the she took on the duties of a lot of the she took on the duties of a lot of the household maintenance stuff and we used household maintenance stuff and we used household maintenance stuff and we used to really argue. I'm like, "Hey, how to really argue. I'm like, "Hey, how to really argue. I'm like, "Hey, how come this happened? How come this come this happened? How come this come this happened? How come this happened?" And um now I go, "Oh gosh, I happened?" And um now I go, "Oh gosh, I happened?" And um now I go, "Oh gosh, I can't believe it didn't happen more."

can't believe it didn't happen more." can't believe it didn't happen more." And so when she forgets to do something And so when she forgets to do something And so when she forgets to do something now or something falls through the now or something falls through the now or something falls through the cracks, I can literally just go, "This cracks, I can literally just go, "This cracks, I can literally just go, "This is who we are [laughter] and I love you. is who we are [laughter] and I love you. is who we are [laughter] and I love you. >> That's amazing." >> That's amazing." >> That's amazing." >> And yeah, it's it's going to cause a >> And yeah, it's it's going to cause a >> And yeah, it's it's going to cause a little bit of pain for us, but let's little bit of pain for us, but let's little bit of pain for us, but let's celebrate that. And but it's it's taken celebrate that. And but it's it's taken celebrate that. And but it's it's taken Laura a while to realize I I actually Laura a while to realize I I actually Laura a while to realize I I actually can love that about her, too. M can love that about her, too. M can love that about her, too. M >> as a devout Roman Catholic, you're >> as a devout Roman Catholic, you're >> as a devout Roman Catholic, you're familiar with the mystics and the dark familiar with the mystics and the dark familiar with the mystics and the dark knight of the soul. knight of the soul. knight of the soul. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We had talked in a previous episode, >> We had talked in a previous episode, >> We had talked in a previous episode, actually our other imperson one, which I actually our other imperson one, which I actually our other imperson one, which I think was audio only, you talked about think was audio only, you talked about think was audio only, you talked about your burnout, your crash. your burnout, your crash. your burnout, your crash. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> A couple of decades ago. >> A couple of decades ago. >> A couple of decades ago. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That was a precursor to all of this. >> That was a precursor to all of this. >> That was a precursor to all of this. >> Precurs Oh, so this was >> Precurs Oh, so this was >> Precurs Oh, so this was >> I got through it and I could white >> I got through it and I could white >> I got through it and I could white knuckle it after that. knuckle it after that. knuckle it after that. >> So that was all the precursor. Wow. >> So that was all the precursor. Wow. >> So that was all the precursor. Wow. >> And then this was >> And then this was >> And then this was >> finally going there. >> finally going there. >> finally going there. >> So, was [clears throat] this your dark >> So, was [clears throat] this your dark >> So, was [clears throat] this your dark night of the soul? night of the soul? night of the soul? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> What does that mean to you? >> What does that mean to you? >> What does that mean to you? >> It It's like It's like >> It It's like It's like >> It It's like It's like being in the ocean. It's dark.

being in the ocean. It's dark. being in the ocean. It's dark. You don't see any lights and you don't know how long you're going and you don't know how long you're going to be out there. Complete dependence on God. And oh boy Complete dependence on God. And oh boy did I read a lot of there's a saint did I read a lot of there's a saint did I read a lot of there's a saint called St. Fainina who a saint from only called St. Fainina who a saint from only called St. Fainina who a saint from only like 70 years ago, 80 years ago and and like 70 years ago, 80 years ago and and like 70 years ago, 80 years ago and and she wrote this diary. Jesus she wrote this diary. Jesus she wrote this diary. Jesus talked to her and I would read in in talked to her and I would read in in talked to her and I would read in in there and and it was so she suffered so there and and it was so she suffered so there and and it was so she suffered so much but she was so hopeful and joyful much but she was so hopeful and joyful much but she was so hopeful and joyful in the midst of it and I like would read in the midst of it and I like would read in the midst of it and I like would read it and just go, "Oh, I need to hear it and just go, "Oh, I need to hear it and just go, "Oh, I need to hear this." And there was so many things, so this." And there was so many things, so this." And there was so many things, so many saints and so many scripture many saints and so many scripture many saints and so many scripture readings that I was just like clinging readings that I was just like clinging readings that I was just like clinging to because it's all I had. And you know, to because it's all I had. And you know, to because it's all I had. And you know, it's all we all have at the end of the it's all we all have at the end of the it's all we all have at the end of the day. All the other things are day. All the other things are day. All the other things are circumstantial and physical and and yet circumstantial and physical and and yet circumstantial and physical and and yet the idea of letting go and just going, the idea of letting go and just going, the idea of letting go and just going, okay, God has all this was so scary okay, God has all this was so scary okay, God has all this was so scary because my whole life had been control, because my whole life had been control, because my whole life had been control, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> I had to control outcomes. cuz I had to >> I had to control outcomes. cuz I had to >> I had to control outcomes. cuz I had to control how I was seen, my my my grades, control how I was seen, my my my grades, control how I was seen, my my my grades, the sports, the job, the career, the the sports, the job, the career, the the sports, the job, the career, the money.

money. money. And it's like, no, no, no. Actually, And it's like, no, no, no. Actually, And it's like, no, no, no. Actually, there's no control. So, God took me there's no control. So, God took me there's no control. So, God took me through that. It was frightening and through that. It was frightening and through that. It was frightening and horrible. And it's like you come out the horrible. And it's like you come out the horrible. And it's like you come out the other side feeling like, okay, now I now other side feeling like, okay, now I now other side feeling like, okay, now I now I just have to not get reattached. I just have to not get reattached. I just have to not get reattached. >> So, you went to therapists? >> So, you went to therapists? >> So, you went to therapists? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Read a lot. >> Read a lot. >> Read a lot. >> Christian therapists. I will tell you, >> Christian therapists. I will tell you, >> Christian therapists. I will tell you, it was a huge difference maker. it was a huge difference maker. it was a huge difference maker. >> Had you been to other therapists? >> Had you been to other therapists? >> Had you been to other therapists? >> Oh, yeah. Throughout my life for my OCD. >> Oh, yeah. Throughout my life for my OCD. >> Oh, yeah. Throughout my life for my OCD. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And um it's one of the biggest >> Yeah. And um it's one of the biggest >> Yeah. And um it's one of the biggest problems in America is that faith and problems in America is that faith and problems in America is that faith and therapy have been disconnected therapy have been disconnected therapy have been disconnected >> for years. It's one of the biggest >> for years. It's one of the biggest >> for years. It's one of the biggest problems. We talked about we were born problems. We talked about we were born problems. We talked about we were born in 1965. Yeah. In that time has been the in 1965. Yeah. In that time has been the in 1965. Yeah. In that time has been the era of therapy but godless therapy a lot era of therapy but godless therapy a lot era of therapy but godless therapy a lot of it. So, I actually went to a of it. So, I actually went to a of it. So, I actually went to a therapist and I told him my faith story therapist and I told him my faith story therapist and I told him my faith story and everything else. And he was mildly and everything else. And he was mildly and everything else. And he was mildly disinterested. And then he worked with disinterested. And then he worked with disinterested. And then he worked with me on my OCD and behavior, you know, CBT me on my OCD and behavior, you know, CBT me on my OCD and behavior, you know, CBT and all this stuff. And and 6 months and all this stuff. And and 6 months and all this stuff. And and 6 months later, I was like, "Okay, I think we've later, I was like, "Okay, I think we've later, I was like, "Okay, I think we've run our course here." And I said, "I got run our course here." And I said, "I got run our course here." And I said, "I got to ask you a question, though." I said, to ask you a question, though." I said, to ask you a question, though." I said, "I told you about my Christian faith and "I told you about my Christian faith and "I told you about my Christian faith and things that have happened in my life, things that have happened in my life, things that have happened in my life, miraculous things in my faith, and you miraculous things in my faith, and you miraculous things in my faith, and you never commented on it, never commented on it, never commented on it, >> and I'm just wondering how what do you >> and I'm just wondering how what do you >> and I'm just wondering how what do you do with this with faith?" And he goes, do with this with faith?" And he goes, do with this with faith?" And he goes, and I told him about my Christian faith.

and I told him about my Christian faith. and I told him about my Christian faith. He said, "Pat, when I was in grad He said, "Pat, when I was in grad He said, "Pat, when I was in grad school, they taught me how to deal with school, they taught me how to deal with school, they taught me how to deal with everyone. I mean, pick a disorder, pick everyone. I mean, pick a disorder, pick everyone. I mean, pick a disorder, pick a demographic, pick a a nation, a a demographic, pick a a nation, a a demographic, pick a a nation, a culture. We learned it all. We never culture. We learned it all. We never culture. We learned it all. We never spoke about Christians." He told me spoke about Christians." He told me spoke about Christians." He told me that. He was like, "That's the one that. He was like, "That's the one that. He was like, "That's the one thing." And you know what I think? Cuz thing." And you know what I think? Cuz thing." And you know what I think? Cuz the truth the truth the truth is so it's like, why would you leave is so it's like, why would you leave is so it's like, why would you leave that out? And so when I started going to that out? And so when I started going to that out? And so when I started going to therapist and Henry told me to do this therapist and Henry told me to do this therapist and Henry told me to do this too, we pray with them and we give too, we pray with them and we give too, we pray with them and we give things to God and then we and we engage things to God and then we and we engage things to God and then we and we engage in in therapy, real therapeutic methods, in in therapy, real therapeutic methods, in in therapy, real therapeutic methods, but knowing that I'm loved by my father but knowing that I'm loved by my father but knowing that I'm loved by my father and Jesus suffered more than I could and Jesus suffered more than I could and Jesus suffered more than I could ever suffer. And any suffering I go ever suffer. And any suffering I go ever suffer. And any suffering I go through, he went through and Mary fully through, he went through and Mary fully through, he went through and Mary fully human stood at his feet and watched him human stood at his feet and watched him human stood at his feet and watched him suffer. And if she could do that, oh, suffer. And if she could do that, oh, suffer. And if she could do that, oh, and she, you know, and she could be with and she, you know, and she could be with and she, you know, and she could be with me and God was taking care of me. Oh, me and God was taking care of me. Oh, me and God was taking care of me. Oh, faith-based faith involved in faith-based faith involved in faith-based faith involved in faith-based therapy was crazy. faith-based therapy was crazy. faith-based therapy was crazy. Wonderful.

Wonderful. Wonderful. >> Was that the same as spiritual direction >> Was that the same as spiritual direction >> Was that the same as spiritual direction or you had a spiritual director? or you had a spiritual director? or you had a spiritual director? >> I had a spiritual director, a priest >> I had a spiritual director, a priest >> I had a spiritual director, a priest who's who I meet with and we just talk who's who I meet with and we just talk who's who I meet with and we just talk about my prayer life and about moral about my prayer life and about moral about my prayer life and about moral things and and he's interested in the things and and he's interested in the things and and he's interested in the therapy stuff too and he's very well therapy stuff too and he's very well therapy stuff too and he's very well known. I mean, wellversed in that, but known. I mean, wellversed in that, but known. I mean, wellversed in that, but but he was talking to me more about and but he was talking to me more about and but he was talking to me more about and so here's one. So, I'm a Catholic and I so here's one. So, I'm a Catholic and I so here's one. So, I'm a Catholic and I and I I really enjoy daily mass. I did and I I really enjoy daily mass. I did and I I really enjoy daily mass. I did for a long time, but I'd start I also for a long time, but I'd start I also for a long time, but I'd start I also have OCD have OCD have OCD >> and so I would go to sometimes I'd go to >> and so I would go to sometimes I'd go to >> and so I would go to sometimes I'd go to mass out of guilt mass out of guilt mass out of guilt and and he would he said, "I don't and and he would he said, "I don't and and he would he said, "I don't you're you're not I don't want you to go you're you're not I don't want you to go you're you're not I don't want you to go to daily mass anymore unless you want to daily mass anymore unless you want to daily mass anymore unless you want to." Now, Sunday mass that's that's how to." Now, Sunday mass that's that's how to." Now, Sunday mass that's that's how we're supposed to be. But he said, we're supposed to be. But he said, we're supposed to be. But he said, "Unless you like are really really "Unless you like are really really "Unless you like are really really really feeling the desire to, but if really feeling the desire to, but if really feeling the desire to, but if there's any other I don't want you to." there's any other I don't want you to." there's any other I don't want you to." And he he said, "I want you to spend 20 And he he said, "I want you to spend 20 And he he said, "I want you to spend 20 minutes with Jesus every day." And this minutes with Jesus every day." And this minutes with Jesus every day." And this is a priest. And and when you go to a is a priest. And and when you go to a is a priest. And and when you go to a spiritual direction, you you follow what spiritual direction, you you follow what spiritual direction, you you follow what they say. And I needed that. And so I they say. And I needed that. And so I they say. And I needed that. And so I have a new habit. Every day I wake up in have a new habit. Every day I wake up in have a new habit. Every day I wake up in the morning, I spend 20 minutes in bed the morning, I spend 20 minutes in bed the morning, I spend 20 minutes in bed just talking to Jesus.

just talking to Jesus. just talking to Jesus. And it was a spiritual director, a And it was a spiritual director, a And it was a spiritual director, a priest [snorts] who helped me see that priest [snorts] who helped me see that priest [snorts] who helped me see that that was necessary for my healing. that was necessary for my healing. that was necessary for my healing. And I needed to stop performing And I needed to stop performing And I needed to stop performing >> and mass could become a performance. >> and mass could become a performance. >> and mass could become a performance. Look, I was there. Look, I was there. Look, I was there. >> Yeah. And and it's not for the other >> Yeah. And and it's not for the other >> Yeah. And and it's not for the other people that are there, but for God like people that are there, but for God like people that are there, but for God like >> Yeah. Yeah. Did you notice I was there >> Yeah. Yeah. Did you notice I was there >> Yeah. Yeah. Did you notice I was there again? again? again? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> A lot of people can relate to that. >> A lot of people can relate to that. >> A lot of people can relate to that. >> Yeah. and and now I can pray in joy and >> Yeah. and and now I can pray in joy and >> Yeah. and and now I can pray in joy and peace because I want to be commun with peace because I want to be commun with peace because I want to be commun with God rather than I have to get through God rather than I have to get through God rather than I have to get through it. it. it. >> So time alone. Yeah. Prayer, spiritual >> So time alone. Yeah. Prayer, spiritual >> So time alone. Yeah. Prayer, spiritual direction, direction, direction, Christian counselor. I always refer Christian counselor. I always refer Christian counselor. I always refer people good Christian counselor. Not people good Christian counselor. Not people good Christian counselor. Not just a Christian counselor. A good Yes. just a Christian counselor. A good Yes. just a Christian counselor. A good Yes. Christian counselor. Christian counselor. Christian counselor. >> It's like a Christian movie. >> It's like a Christian movie. >> It's like a Christian movie. >> Exactly. But a good Christian movie. >> Exactly. But a good Christian movie. >> Exactly. But a good Christian movie. [laughter] Exactly. But also also a [laughter] Exactly. But also also a [laughter] Exactly. But also also a Christian, right? I I really believe if Christian, right? I I really believe if Christian, right? I I really believe if Jesus isn't at the center of your Jesus isn't at the center of your Jesus isn't at the center of your healing, you won't be healed. healing, you won't be healed. healing, you won't be healed. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I believe that, Pat. >> I believe that, Pat. >> I believe that, Pat. >> Oh, he's the healer. >> Oh, he's the healer. >> Oh, he's the healer. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's his >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's his >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's his name, right? name, right? name, right? >> And it's like and and am I supposed to >> And it's like and and am I supposed to >> And it's like and and am I supposed to compartmentalize that? I would go to compartmentalize that? I would go to compartmentalize that? I would go to these other counselors and I could tell these other counselors and I could tell these other counselors and I could tell they were looking at me they were looking at me they were looking at me >> like, oh, there was this unstated >> like, oh, there was this unstated >> like, oh, there was this unstated thought like your faith is your problem.

thought like your faith is your problem. thought like your faith is your problem. They were like, oh, well, oh, okay, but They were like, oh, well, oh, okay, but They were like, oh, well, oh, okay, but maybe. And and so many therapists over maybe. And and so many therapists over maybe. And and so many therapists over the years, the years, the years, >> too religious, >> too religious, >> too religious, >> right? You should just do whatever you >> right? You should just do whatever you >> right? You should just do whatever you feel like. Your problem is that you feel feel like. Your problem is that you feel feel like. Your problem is that you feel guilty for doing this thing like guilty for doing this thing like guilty for doing this thing like conscience doesn't work into that in conscience doesn't work into that in conscience doesn't work into that in faith and so anyway. Yeah, I think it's faith and so anyway. Yeah, I think it's faith and so anyway. Yeah, I think it's really really important. really really important. really really important. >> 5 months. >> 5 months. >> 5 months. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. My dog Freddy was there most of it. He My dog Freddy was there most of it. He My dog Freddy was there most of it. He is the most spiritually adjusted and is the most spiritually adjusted and is the most spiritually adjusted and healthy dog. Even this day I I still do healthy dog. Even this day I I still do healthy dog. Even this day I I still do therapy. He comes in and sits next to me therapy. He comes in and sits next to me therapy. He comes in and sits next to me durapy. It's great. durapy. It's great. durapy. It's great. >> What was the darkest moment? Oh man, I >> What was the darkest moment? Oh man, I >> What was the darkest moment? Oh man, I don't I I don't want to think about it, don't I I don't want to think about it, don't I I don't want to think about it, but there were many. [clears throat] but there were many. [clears throat] but there were many. [clears throat] There were many There were many There were many just lying on the floor by myself, not just lying on the floor by myself, not just lying on the floor by myself, not seeing forward, backward, anything. And seeing forward, backward, anything. And seeing forward, backward, anything. And just just just there were there were quite a few of there were there were quite a few of there were there were quite a few of those. those. those. >> I've been there. >> I've been there. >> I've been there. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I've been there. And you know, it's so >> I've been there. And you know, it's so >> I've been there. And you know, it's so important to talk to people who have important to talk to people who have important to talk to people who have been there cuz cuz in this world, we been there cuz cuz in this world, we been there cuz cuz in this world, we send Christmas cards and we post on send Christmas cards and we post on send Christmas cards and we post on social media that life is great. And social media that life is great. And social media that life is great. And there's not a human being I I have there's not a human being I I have there's not a human being I I have talked to that hasn't been in a tough talked to that hasn't been in a tough talked to that hasn't been in a tough place. And yet we walk around acting place. And yet we walk around acting place. And yet we walk around acting like it's not us. And when you can talk like it's not us. And when you can talk like it's not us. And when you can talk to somebody and say, "Oh yeah, I went to somebody and say, "Oh yeah, I went to somebody and say, "Oh yeah, I went through something like that." And when through something like that." And when through something like that." And when you're in the midst of it and people can you're in the midst of it and people can you're in the midst of it and people can tell you that, you're like, and they're tell you that, you're like, and they're tell you that, you're like, and they're like, "You're not alone, man." I was like, "You're not alone, man." I was like, "You're not alone, man." I was It's like that doesn't fix it, but man, It's like that doesn't fix it, but man, It's like that doesn't fix it, but man, it's good to know that it's not just me it's good to know that it's not just me it's good to know that it's not just me cuz that feeling that nobody else has

cuz that feeling that nobody else has cuz that feeling that nobody else has ever been through this makes you feel ever been through this makes you feel ever been through this makes you feel like I've done something really like I've done something really like I've done something really terrible. terrible. terrible. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Even right now, you saying that is great >> Even right now, you saying that is great >> Even right now, you saying that is great to hear. to hear. to hear. >> It's still emotional. >> It's still emotional. >> It's still emotional. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And to see a brother go through that, >> And to see a brother go through that, >> And to see a brother go through that, >> it's it's hard. >> it's it's hard. >> it's it's hard. >> And you can't help your spouse. You >> And you can't help your spouse. You >> And you can't help your spouse. You can't go through it for them. Laura had can't go through it for them. Laura had can't go through it for them. Laura had to be away for for part of it. she was to be away for for part of it. she was to be away for for part of it. she was had other things to do moving here and had other things to do moving here and had other things to do moving here and um and when she was around I would like um and when she was around I would like um and when she was around I would like she'd be she'd try to help and I would she'd be she'd try to help and I would she'd be she'd try to help and I would try to have her help me and it was like try to have her help me and it was like try to have her help me and it was like nothing I could I had to go through it. nothing I could I had to go through it. nothing I could I had to go through it. >> Was there a a moment that was like a ray >> Was there a a moment that was like a ray >> Was there a a moment that was like a ray of light or a turning point and I I of light or a turning point and I I of light or a turning point and I I don't mean like all of a sudden I woke don't mean like all of a sudden I woke don't mean like all of a sudden I woke up and it was all better because that's up and it was all better because that's up and it was all better because that's not how it goes. But not how it goes. But not how it goes. But >> I know there were many. >> I know there were many. >> I know there were many. >> I had a friend Craig who reached out to >> I had a friend Craig who reached out to >> I had a friend Craig who reached out to me and just called me one day and I was me and just called me one day and I was me and just called me one day and I was literally lying on the floor and you literally lying on the floor and you literally lying on the floor and you know exactly what I'm talking about know exactly what I'm talking about know exactly what I'm talking about going, "How do I get up or whatever?" going, "How do I get up or whatever?" going, "How do I get up or whatever?" And he just said, "Hey, I just want you And he just said, "Hey, I just want you And he just said, "Hey, I just want you to know it was a very short to know it was a very short to know it was a very short conversation. I'm praying for you today conversation. I'm praying for you today conversation. I'm praying for you today and the sun will rise again."

and the sun will rise again." and the sun will rise again." And that's all he said. Yeah. And And that's all he said. Yeah. And And that's all he said. Yeah. And boy oh boy that was like the gospel. boy oh boy that was like the gospel. boy oh boy that was like the gospel. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know Pat like >> You know Pat like >> You know Pat like >> what were what were some lifelines for >> what were what were some lifelines for >> what were what were some lifelines for you? you? you? >> I think understanding Jesus suffering >> I think understanding Jesus suffering >> I think understanding Jesus suffering you know I heard somebody said this to you know I heard somebody said this to you know I heard somebody said this to me the other day they said me the other day they said me the other day they said you we can't in fact a therapist a you we can't in fact a therapist a you we can't in fact a therapist a Christian therapist Catholic guy and I I Christian therapist Catholic guy and I I Christian therapist Catholic guy and I I see this wonderful Pentecostal woman who see this wonderful Pentecostal woman who see this wonderful Pentecostal woman who she and I just it's wonderful. I love she and I just it's wonderful. I love she and I just it's wonderful. I love her. But this guy said, "To understand her. But this guy said, "To understand her. But this guy said, "To understand the suffering that Mary went through, the suffering that Mary went through, the suffering that Mary went through, the purity of her and the purity of her the purity of her and the purity of her the purity of her and the purity of her son and standing there watching him son and standing there watching him son and standing there watching him suffer and being able to do nothing for suffer and being able to do nothing for suffer and being able to do nothing for him is beyond anything we can imagine him is beyond anything we can imagine him is beyond anything we can imagine because of the purity." because of the purity." because of the purity." And he said that the the just And he said that the the just And he said that the the just extraordinary suffering that we couldn't extraordinary suffering that we couldn't extraordinary suffering that we couldn't even imagine even imagine even imagine to to go through that impurity and to to to go through that impurity and to to to go through that impurity and to go, "Oh, wow. He really does know what go, "Oh, wow. He really does know what go, "Oh, wow. He really does know what I'm going through." And that he could I'm going through." And that he could I'm going through." And that he could look down from the cross and say, "I got look down from the cross and say, "I got look down from the cross and say, "I got it. I know. I know.

it. I know. I know. it. I know. I know. Um I see your son. Um I see your son. Um I see your son. >> No Easter without Good Friday, man. >> No Easter without Good Friday, man. >> No Easter without Good Friday, man. >> Yeah, there is no Easter without Good >> Yeah, there is no Easter without Good >> Yeah, there is no Easter without Good Friday. Friday. Friday. >> So nobody wants Good Friday. >> So nobody wants Good Friday. >> So nobody wants Good Friday. >> No, I know it. >> No, I know it. >> No, I know it. >> Nobody wants Good Friday. They just want >> Nobody wants Good Friday. They just want >> Nobody wants Good Friday. They just want Easter. Easter. Easter. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> particularly in my evangelical world. >> particularly in my evangelical world. >> particularly in my evangelical world. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] We can get to the party before the We can get to the party before the We can get to the party before the suffering. and in the world in general. suffering. and in the world in general. suffering. and in the world in general. You know, I think that in business, in You know, I think that in business, in You know, I think that in business, in marriage, in life, I think one of the marriage, in life, I think one of the marriage, in life, I think one of the biggest problems we face in our society, biggest problems we face in our society, biggest problems we face in our society, and I think it comes in our generation and I think it comes in our generation and I think it comes in our generation especially, is the purpose of life is to especially, is the purpose of life is to especially, is the purpose of life is to avoid suffering. avoid suffering. avoid suffering. >> Yes. Well, that's the message we give >> Yes. Well, that's the message we give >> Yes. Well, that's the message we give kids, right? Yeah. kids, right? Yeah. kids, right? Yeah. >> I just want you to be happy. >> I just want you to be happy. >> I just want you to be happy. >> Yeah. And it's like actually preparing >> Yeah. And it's like actually preparing >> Yeah. And it's like actually preparing people to manage unhappiness because people to manage unhappiness because people to manage unhappiness because it's, you know, and like blessed are the it's, you know, and like blessed are the it's, you know, and like blessed are the poor in spirit. poor in spirit. poor in spirit. >> Yes. We always go, I don't know what >> Yes. We always go, I don't know what >> Yes. We always go, I don't know what that one means. Let's keep going. Okay. that one means. Let's keep going. Okay. that one means. Let's keep going. Okay. I'll try me. I'll try a peacemaker. But I'll try me. I'll try a peacemaker. But I'll try me. I'll try a peacemaker. But that's important. that's important. that's important. >> I can do all things through Christ who >> I can do all things through Christ who >> I can do all things through Christ who strengthens, you know, right? We just strengthens, you know, right? We just strengthens, you know, right? We just jump to the the parts we like. jump to the the parts we like. jump to the the parts we like. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What, you know, another key moment for >> What, you know, another key moment for >> What, you know, another key moment for me and my Dark Knight was in 2006 and I me and my Dark Knight was in 2006 and I me and my Dark Knight was in 2006 and I remember seeing my therapist at the time remember seeing my therapist at the time remember seeing my therapist at the time and he said, "Well, I've been practicing and he said, "Well, I've been practicing and he said, "Well, I've been practicing deconstructive therapy on you." And I'm deconstructive therapy on you." And I'm deconstructive therapy on you." And I'm [laughter] like, "Good. Did you happen [laughter] like, "Good. Did you happen [laughter] like, "Good. Did you happen to study reconstructive therapy? Like, to study reconstructive therapy? Like, to study reconstructive therapy? Like, it would be good to be good to get."

it would be good to be good to get." it would be good to be good to get." >> And we're going to leave it right there. >> And we're going to leave it right there. >> And we're going to leave it right there. >> We're going to leave it right [laughter] >> We're going to leave it right [laughter] >> We're going to leave it right [laughter] there. we're just going to leave you on there. we're just going to leave you on there. we're just going to leave you on the operating table and we're out of the operating table and we're out of the operating table and we're out of sutures. Uh there was reconstruction sutures. Uh there was reconstruction sutures. Uh there was reconstruction that happened which was just and he said that happened which was just and he said that happened which was just and he said to me he said he said this is a very dark moment and he said this is a very dark moment and he said you will come through this. he said you will come through this. he said you will come through this. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> But he said I want you to remember what >> But he said I want you to remember what >> But he said I want you to remember what it feels like because there will be it feels like because there will be it feels like because there will be other people and they may you'll be able other people and they may you'll be able other people and they may you'll be able to help them and they some of them may to help them and they some of them may to help them and they some of them may not come out of it but I want you to not come out of it but I want you to not come out of it but I want you to never forget what it feels like. And never forget what it feels like. And never forget what it feels like. And that was the beginning of a turning that was the beginning of a turning that was the beginning of a turning point for me where about a month later I point for me where about a month later I point for me where about a month later I started to see little flickers of light started to see little flickers of light started to see little flickers of light and hope and joy return. Just flickers, and hope and joy return. Just flickers, and hope and joy return. Just flickers, you know, like, "Oh, it's a dark room you know, like, "Oh, it's a dark room you know, like, "Oh, it's a dark room and all of a sudden there's a flash." and all of a sudden there's a flash." and all of a sudden there's a flash." >> Oh, yeah. There were so many of those. >> Oh, yeah. There were so many of those. >> Oh, yeah. There were so many of those. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And you're like, >> And you're like, >> And you're like, >> "Okay, when's the next one?" Yeah. Okay. >> "Okay, when's the next one?" Yeah. Okay. >> "Okay, when's the next one?" Yeah. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. >> What was that like for you when as the >> What was that like for you when as the >> What was that like for you when as the reconstruction I assume, started? reconstruction I assume, started? reconstruction I assume, started? >> Yeah. I can't recall all of it. >> Yeah. I can't recall all of it. >> Yeah. I can't recall all of it. >> Um, and I cuz I don't notice things >> Um, and I cuz I don't notice things >> Um, and I cuz I don't notice things sometimes, you know. sometimes, you know. sometimes, you know. >> You notice the pain, but you don't >> You notice the pain, but you don't >> You notice the pain, but you don't notice getting better.

notice getting better. notice getting better. >> Yeah. And then one day you go, "Whoa." >> Yeah. And then one day you go, "Whoa." >> Yeah. And then one day you go, "Whoa." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, and so, >> Um, and so, >> Um, and so, yeah, I don't know. But I stand here yeah, I don't know. But I stand here yeah, I don't know. But I stand here today and I go, I enjoy simple things so today and I go, I enjoy simple things so today and I go, I enjoy simple things so much more. And wow, do I enjoy the much more. And wow, do I enjoy the much more. And wow, do I enjoy the company of my wife and friends and and company of my wife and friends and and company of my wife and friends and and um my dog. um my dog. um my dog. I mean, it's so crazy. And I don't I I I mean, it's so crazy. And I don't I I I mean, it's so crazy. And I don't I I can't hold on to it. See, I grew up hold can't hold on to it. See, I grew up hold can't hold on to it. See, I grew up hold on to everything. on to everything. on to everything. >> Hold on to your wife. Hold on to what >> Hold on to your wife. Hold on to what >> Hold on to your wife. Hold on to what you got. You built the books. you got. You built the books. you got. You built the books. >> Yeah. And it's like, nope, none of that, >> Yeah. And it's like, nope, none of that, >> Yeah. And it's like, nope, none of that, none of that matters. none of that matters. none of that matters. >> Ultimately, >> Ultimately, >> Ultimately, >> how do you know you were ready to go >> how do you know you were ready to go >> how do you know you were ready to go back to work? back to work? back to work? >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, you know, it was a gradual thing, but I you know, it was a gradual thing, but I you know, it was a gradual thing, but I was like, I think I'm ready to I think was like, I think I'm ready to I think was like, I think I'm ready to I think the I I needed the business and the the I I needed the business and the the I I needed the business and the business needed me. It could it couldn't business needed me. It could it couldn't business needed me. It could it couldn't be one way only. If it oh, the business be one way only. If it oh, the business be one way only. If it oh, the business needs me, but I can't do this. Or it needs me, but I can't do this. Or it needs me, but I can't do this. Or it couldn't be, I need the business, but I couldn't be, I need the business, but I couldn't be, I need the business, but I I'm not going to be good for them. I I'm not going to be good for them. I I'm not going to be good for them. I actually got to the point where I could actually got to the point where I could actually got to the point where I could see as Oh, yeah. Yeah. And God blessed see as Oh, yeah. Yeah. And God blessed see as Oh, yeah. Yeah. And God blessed them because during that time they just them because during that time they just them because during that time they just held on and kept the wheels moving. Um held on and kept the wheels moving. Um held on and kept the wheels moving. Um but there came a time when I realized, but there came a time when I realized, but there came a time when I realized, oh yeah, it's it's a mutually good thing oh yeah, it's it's a mutually good thing oh yeah, it's it's a mutually good thing now.

now. now. >> That that I I love to work. I feel >> That that I I love to work. I feel >> That that I I love to work. I feel called to this. called to this. called to this. >> Yes. And they were so great and Laura, >> Yes. And they were so great and Laura, >> Yes. And they were so great and Laura, too, because they were like, "No, we too, because they were like, "No, we too, because they were like, "No, we want you to do what you're meant to do." want you to do what you're meant to do." want you to do what you're meant to do." But what's interesting, Carrie, this is But what's interesting, Carrie, this is But what's interesting, Carrie, this is so interesting. When I came back to so interesting. When I came back to so interesting. When I came back to work, not only did I lean in more to the work, not only did I lean in more to the work, not only did I lean in more to the things that I think God called me to do, things that I think God called me to do, things that I think God called me to do, but the things that I don't like to do, but the things that I don't like to do, but the things that I don't like to do, but that are necessary, I I I I leaned but that are necessary, I I I I leaned but that are necessary, I I I I leaned into that, too. Really? Like, I'm a into that, too. Really? Like, I'm a into that, too. Really? Like, I'm a better manager than I was before. How better manager than I was before. How better manager than I was before. How so? so? so? >> Well, I think that when you're wounded, >> Well, I think that when you're wounded, >> Well, I think that when you're wounded, it's just really hard to do hard things it's just really hard to do hard things it's just really hard to do hard things cuz you're already so cuz you're already so cuz you're already so self- flagagillating. self- flagagillating. self- flagagillating. And so now I can And so now I can And so now I can >> That was you self flagagillating. >> That was you self flagagillating. >> That was you self flagagillating. >> Yeah. And and it was like, I don't want >> Yeah. And and it was like, I don't want >> Yeah. And and it was like, I don't want to have to do this anymore. When I came to have to do this anymore. When I came to have to do this anymore. When I came back, I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to I back, I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to I back, I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to I want to pour into this person and be want to pour into this person and be want to pour into this person and be patient and and and help things get back patient and and and help things get back patient and and and help things get back on their feet, and there's going to be a on their feet, and there's going to be a on their feet, and there's going to be a little suffering, mine and others, and little suffering, mine and others, and little suffering, mine and others, and I'm going to wait into that." And so now I'm going to wait into that." And so now I'm going to wait into that." And so now when hard things happen, I'm so much when hard things happen, I'm so much when hard things happen, I'm so much less likely to complain. I don't get to less likely to complain. I don't get to less likely to complain. I don't get to face anymore. face anymore. face anymore. Certainly not very much. And um and so Certainly not very much. And um and so Certainly not very much. And um and so I'm kind of leaning into the suffering, I'm kind of leaning into the suffering, I'm kind of leaning into the suffering, but not like it's a piling on. It's more but not like it's a piling on. It's more but not like it's a piling on. It's more like, "Oh, this is the suffering God has like, "Oh, this is the suffering God has like, "Oh, this is the suffering God has for me today. I will do this. You can't for me today. I will do this. You can't for me today. I will do this. You can't do that when you're already whipping do that when you're already whipping do that when you're already whipping yourself.

yourself. yourself. >> We're always in the process of of >> We're always in the process of of >> We're always in the process of of renegotiating renegotiating renegotiating how we interact. But you mentioned how we interact. But you mentioned how we interact. But you mentioned performance and success and control. So, performance and success and control. So, performance and success and control. So, you know, now probably not fully a year you know, now probably not fully a year you know, now probably not fully a year on the other side of that journey. How on the other side of that journey. How on the other side of that journey. How is your relationship? How has your is your relationship? How has your is your relationship? How has your relationship with success and relationship with success and relationship with success and performance and control? How has that performance and control? How has that performance and control? How has that changed? changed? changed? >> It's very different. >> It's very different. >> It's very different. >> Yeah. And I knew before that it needed >> Yeah. And I knew before that it needed >> Yeah. And I knew before that it needed to be different. I always knew that like to be different. I always knew that like to be different. I always knew that like legacy and fame was not worth anything. legacy and fame was not worth anything. legacy and fame was not worth anything. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But there's a difference between knowing >> But there's a difference between knowing >> But there's a difference between knowing it and actually going through this. it and actually going through this. it and actually going through this. >> So, so you kind of knew that cognitively >> So, so you kind of knew that cognitively >> So, so you kind of knew that cognitively that that that >> the whole knowing and knowing like in >> the whole knowing and knowing like in >> the whole knowing and knowing like in the Bible they talk about and you know the Bible they talk about and you know the Bible they talk about and you know like and and like the deepest form of like and and like the deepest form of like and and like the deepest form of knowing a man and his wife like he knew knowing a man and his wife like he knew knowing a man and his wife like he knew her. I mean, that's like knowing, her. I mean, that's like knowing, her. I mean, that's like knowing, you know, and so I knew that like, well, you know, and so I knew that like, well, you know, and so I knew that like, well, I met all these famous people and they I met all these famous people and they I met all these famous people and they weren't really happy and it and I was weren't really happy and it and I was weren't really happy and it and I was like, oh, I can tell that doesn't work. like, oh, I can tell that doesn't work. like, oh, I can tell that doesn't work. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And then they, so why are you still >> And then they, so why are you still >> And then they, so why are you still working so hard? It's like, I don't working so hard? It's like, I don't working so hard? It's like, I don't know. It's what I know. And and so going know. It's what I know. And and so going know. It's what I know. And and so going through that has allowed me to step back through that has allowed me to step back through that has allowed me to step back more when I'm working on things and just more when I'm working on things and just more when I'm working on things and just connect to the people that would benefit connect to the people that would benefit connect to the people that would benefit from it and to serving God through that.

from it and to serving God through that. from it and to serving God through that. And and what's amazing [clears throat] And and what's amazing [clears throat] And and what's amazing [clears throat] is I'm doing more things that I love is I'm doing more things that I love is I'm doing more things that I love than I've ever done. I think it's than I've ever done. I think it's than I've ever done. I think it's because I'm holding on a lot less because I'm holding on a lot less because I'm holding on a lot less tightly to things. tightly to things. tightly to things. >> How did the company do when you were >> How did the company do when you were >> How did the company do when you were away? away? away? >> They they they held on and they did >> They they they held on and they did >> They they they held on and they did great. great. great. I one of the things I learned from them I one of the things I learned from them I one of the things I learned from them is that they actually missed me and is that they actually missed me and is that they actually missed me and needed me. I never believed it. Re needed me. I never believed it. Re needed me. I never believed it. Re >> really? >> really? >> really? >> Oh yeah. I never believed it >> Oh yeah. I never believed it >> Oh yeah. I never believed it >> cuz I mean it's the table group but your >> cuz I mean it's the table group but your >> cuz I mean it's the table group but your name is synonymous with the table group. name is synonymous with the table group. name is synonymous with the table group. you know something and they would say you know something and they would say you know something and they would say that too and it was it was kind of that too and it was it was kind of that too and it was it was kind of annoying to them because I would say I annoying to them because I would say I annoying to them because I would say I didn't think you would miss me. I didn't think you would miss me. I didn't think you would miss me. I thought it would be a positive and they thought it would be a positive and they thought it would be a positive and they would go but we love you. Well the truth would go but we love you. Well the truth would go but we love you. Well the truth is I didn't know it is I didn't know it is I didn't know it and coming out of this I was like hey and coming out of this I was like hey and coming out of this I was like hey the people I work with do love me and it the people I work with do love me and it the people I work with do love me and it was so painful for them because they're was so painful for them because they're was so painful for them because they're like what can we do to show it to you like what can we do to show it to you like what can we do to show it to you and it was like it's not you it's me. and it was like it's not you it's me. and it was like it's not you it's me. What was the block there? Well, it's What was the block there? Well, it's What was the block there? Well, it's that I grew growing up I didn't ever that I grew growing up I didn't ever that I grew growing up I didn't ever have unconditional love and so I didn't have unconditional love and so I didn't have unconditional love and so I didn't know why anyone would love me. You know, know why anyone would love me. You know, know why anyone would love me. You know, it's like and and and it's all it's like and and and it's all it's like and and and it's all performance-based. So, yeah, we're I'm performance-based. So, yeah, we're I'm performance-based. So, yeah, we're I'm we're making money and we're paying you we're making money and we're paying you we're making money and we're paying you and you have a good job and I was and and you have a good job and I was and and you have a good job and I was and and I thought they love me because I'm and I thought they love me because I'm and I thought they love me because I'm useful to them and that's insulting to useful to them and that's insulting to useful to them and that's insulting to them because they really did love me, them because they really did love me, them because they really did love me, but I couldn't feel it. And so coming but I couldn't feel it. And so coming but I couldn't feel it. And so coming back I was like these people actually back I was like these people actually back I was like these people actually and I like to tell people like I love and I like to tell people like I love and I like to tell people like I love you and then I say I also like you. I you and then I say I also like you. I you and then I say I also like you. I say to my kids say to my kids say to my kids >> cuz I say yeah you love me. You got to

>> cuz I say yeah you love me. You got to >> cuz I say yeah you love me. You got to love. No no no I liked you. I like you love. No no no I liked you. I like you love. No no no I liked you. I like you too. And I was like oh wait when I'm too. And I was like oh wait when I'm too. And I was like oh wait when I'm around them they actually see the good I around them they actually see the good I around them they actually see the good I do and they they understand the the do and they they understand the the do and they they understand the the gifts I bring to the company. Before I I gifts I bring to the company. Before I I gifts I bring to the company. Before I I mean I did not take a lot of joy in the mean I did not take a lot of joy in the mean I did not take a lot of joy in the things I did. I thought I'm just trying things I did. I thought I'm just trying things I did. I thought I'm just trying to keep up. I mean which is a crazy to keep up. I mean which is a crazy to keep up. I mean which is a crazy thing. And so, uh, they they did a great thing. And so, uh, they they did a great thing. And so, uh, they they did a great job holding things together. They didn't job holding things together. They didn't job holding things together. They didn't know what to do for me. And now we're in know what to do for me. And now we're in know what to do for me. And now we're in a we our relationships are stronger and a we our relationships are stronger and a we our relationships are stronger and we're we're all figuring out what we do we're we're all figuring out what we do we're we're all figuring out what we do more and we're loving on each other and more and we're loving on each other and more and we're loving on each other and things are going great. And Cody, Karen, things are going great. And Cody, Karen, things are going great. And Cody, Karen, and Tracy are I'm closer to them than and Tracy are I'm closer to them than and Tracy are I'm closer to them than ever. And they know that I I'm I feel ever. And they know that I I'm I feel ever. And they know that I I'm I feel terrible for what they had to go through terrible for what they had to go through terrible for what they had to go through while I was going through it. But they while I was going through it. But they while I was going through it. But they would say, "No, that's what we do." would say, "No, that's what we do." would say, "No, that's what we do." >> We both had a milestone birthday this >> We both had a milestone birthday this >> We both had a milestone birthday this year, turning 60. year, turning 60. year, turning 60. >> Yeah. How about that? >> Yeah. How about that? >> Yeah. How about that? >> Yeah. I know. And when you think about >> Yeah. I know. And when you think about >> Yeah. I know. And when you think about the decades ahead, what excites you? the decades ahead, what excites you? the decades ahead, what excites you? What what what what what goes through What what what what what goes through What what what what what goes through your mind? your mind? your mind? >> I think I'm pretty clear now that I >> I think I'm pretty clear now that I >> I think I'm pretty clear now that I should only think about the days ahead. should only think about the days ahead. should only think about the days ahead. >> Ah, interesting. >> Ah, interesting. >> Ah, interesting. >> Cuz see, my whole life because I was in >> Cuz see, my whole life because I was in >> Cuz see, my whole life because I was in control. I I wanted like how does this control. I I wanted like how does this control. I I wanted like how does this play out? You know, like ENFP in play out? You know, like ENFP in play out? You know, like ENFP in MyersBriggs, we live in the future.

MyersBriggs, we live in the future. MyersBriggs, we live in the future. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> SPs, you know, the MyersBriggs live in >> SPs, you know, the MyersBriggs live in >> SPs, you know, the MyersBriggs live in the present. SJS live in the past. We the present. SJS live in the past. We the present. SJS live in the past. We live in the future. like, well, what's live in the future. like, well, what's live in the future. like, well, what's the future hold? What's the f I've been the future hold? What's the f I've been the future hold? What's the f I've been at more things where I'm like, okay, at more things where I'm like, okay, at more things where I'm like, okay, this is fun, but what's coming next? And this is fun, but what's coming next? And this is fun, but what's coming next? And now I realize, no, no, no. I'm just now I realize, no, no, no. I'm just now I realize, no, no, no. I'm just going to look forward to tonight. Yeah. going to look forward to tonight. Yeah. going to look forward to tonight. Yeah. So, so I don't even know cuz the truth So, so I don't even know cuz the truth So, so I don't even know cuz the truth is God could take me right now. The is God could take me right now. The is God could take me right now. The economy could collapse tomorrow. Who economy could collapse tomorrow. Who economy could collapse tomorrow. Who knows what's going to happen in in the knows what's going to happen in in the knows what's going to happen in in the world? And you think about these world? And you think about these world? And you think about these Christians that are dying for their Christians that are dying for their Christians that are dying for their faith in Africa right now. faith in Africa right now. faith in Africa right now. I don't I'm pretty sure they're bestlaid I don't I'm pretty sure they're bestlaid I don't I'm pretty sure they're bestlaid plans, you know, and in the Bible like, plans, you know, and in the Bible like, plans, you know, and in the Bible like, "Oh, I built the the silos and the "Oh, I built the the silos and the "Oh, I built the the silos and the shrubs and everything's perfect." It's shrubs and everything's perfect." It's shrubs and everything's perfect." It's like, "You fool. Tonight your life is like, "You fool. Tonight your life is like, "You fool. Tonight your life is going to be taken from you." So, I'm going to be taken from you." So, I'm going to be taken from you." So, I'm actually learning not to live in the actually learning not to live in the actually learning not to live in the future at all. And it's it's awesome. future at all. And it's it's awesome. future at all. And it's it's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I I am less worried about what because I I am less worried about what because I I am less worried about what life is going to be like in a decade and life is going to be like in a decade and life is going to be like in a decade and more excited about what I get to do more excited about what I get to do more excited about what I get to do today. today. today. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I'm working on a book. I'm excited about >> I'm working on a book. I'm excited about >> I'm working on a book. I'm excited about the book. I hope it does well, but I the book. I hope it does well, but I the book. I hope it does well, but I haven't got the ambitions I maybe did haven't got the ambitions I maybe did haven't got the ambitions I maybe did for a book 20 years ago in terms of for a book 20 years ago in terms of for a book 20 years ago in terms of performance. It's like, yeah, I'm sure performance. It's like, yeah, I'm sure performance. It's like, yeah, I'm sure it'll sell some copies. I think it'll be it'll sell some copies. I think it'll be it'll sell some copies. I think it'll be fine. Yeah. I I wonder about that like fine. Yeah. I I wonder about that like fine. Yeah. I I wonder about that like movies and uh and and and songs like movies and uh and and and songs like movies and uh and and and songs like artists, musical artists, how so many artists, musical artists, how so many artists, musical artists, how so many people write their best songs in their people write their best songs in their people write their best songs in their in their 20s.

in their 20s. in their 20s. And and I think there's something to be And and I think there's something to be And and I think there's something to be said for for the desperation and the said for for the desperation and the said for for the desperation and the panic of being young [laughter] panic of being young [laughter] panic of being young [laughter] >> that makes people do things. And I even >> that makes people do things. And I even >> that makes people do things. And I even think about some of my books and I look think about some of my books and I look think about some of my books and I look back and I'm like, I remember writing back and I'm like, I remember writing back and I'm like, I remember writing that. I was holed up in a hotel room and that. I was holed up in a hotel room and that. I was holed up in a hotel room and struggling with this. And and now people struggling with this. And and now people struggling with this. And and now people talk about that book all the time. And talk about that book all the time. And talk about that book all the time. And when I'm writing now, I'm trying to when I'm writing now, I'm trying to when I'm writing now, I'm trying to write out of joy and peace, write out of joy and peace, write out of joy and peace, >> not out of like gosh, I hope this is >> not out of like gosh, I hope this is >> not out of like gosh, I hope this is awesome. [laughter] awesome. [laughter] awesome. [laughter] >> Well, you've written a lot of awesome >> Well, you've written a lot of awesome >> Well, you've written a lot of awesome stuff. stuff. stuff. >> Well, thank you. I mean, this one, >> Well, thank you. I mean, this one, >> Well, thank you. I mean, this one, Silos, Politics, and and Turf Wars, Silos, Politics, and and Turf Wars, Silos, Politics, and and Turf Wars, very, very huge for me. very, very huge for me. very, very huge for me. >> Really? Oh, yeah. That is probably the >> Really? Oh, yeah. That is probably the >> Really? Oh, yeah. That is probably the least mentioned book of all the ones least mentioned book of all the ones least mentioned book of all the ones I've written. I've written. I've written. >> Well, I was cuz Jim Collins said the >> Well, I was cuz Jim Collins said the >> Well, I was cuz Jim Collins said the same thing to me cuz I love How the same thing to me cuz I love How the same thing to me cuz I love How the Mighty Fall. And he goes, "Nobody ever Mighty Fall. And he goes, "Nobody ever Mighty Fall. And he goes, "Nobody ever asked me about that book." asked me about that book." asked me about that book." >> Well, this book here is the least >> Well, this book here is the least >> Well, this book here is the least selling. It's the three big questions selling. It's the three big questions selling. It's the three big questions for a frantic family. for a frantic family. for a frantic family. >> Oh, really? >> Oh, really? >> Oh, really? >> And this is the book people go, >> And this is the book people go, >> And this is the book people go, >> I haven't read that one. >> I haven't read that one. >> I haven't read that one. >> No. Yeah. And I haven't looked back at >> No. Yeah. And I haven't looked back at >> No. Yeah. And I haven't looked back at it either. And people are like, "Oh, it either. And people are like, "Oh, it either. And people are like, "Oh, yeah. It changed my life." But it's like yeah. It changed my life." But it's like yeah. It changed my life." But it's like the least selling, but certainly if you the least selling, but certainly if you the least selling, but certainly if you plotted it, it would be the one that plotted it, it would be the one that plotted it, it would be the one that people resonate with the most.

people resonate with the most. people resonate with the most. >> So, Silos, Politics, and Turf Wars is >> So, Silos, Politics, and Turf Wars is >> So, Silos, Politics, and Turf Wars is just just just >> probably the second least selling. >> probably the second least selling. >> probably the second least selling. >> It's a great book, man. >> It's a great book, man. >> It's a great book, man. >> It's a great book. >> It's a great book. >> It's a great book. >> I'm going to go read it again. It's >> I'm going to go read it again. It's >> I'm going to go read it again. It's probably been 15 years. probably been 15 years. probably been 15 years. >> It is good. It's about a unifying theme >> It is good. It's about a unifying theme >> It is good. It's about a unifying theme that so you don't get factions and that so you don't get factions and that so you don't get factions and divisions or, you know, in church world divisions or, you know, in church world divisions or, you know, in church world campuses and departments. campuses and departments. campuses and departments. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> oh yeah. You know, your communications >> oh yeah. You know, your communications >> oh yeah. You know, your communications people don't talk to your small groups people don't talk to your small groups people don't talk to your small groups people don't talk. this campus doesn't people don't talk. this campus doesn't people don't talk. this campus doesn't like that campus. like that campus. like that campus. >> The music is fine. The outreach is >> The music is fine. The outreach is >> The music is fine. The outreach is terrible. I'm doing fine. It's like terrible. I'm doing fine. It's like terrible. I'm doing fine. It's like we're in the same boat. It's all going we're in the same boat. It's all going we're in the same boat. It's all going to sink. to sink. to sink. >> Same mission. You know, my company, it >> Same mission. You know, my company, it >> Same mission. You know, my company, it doesn't matter if customer service is doesn't matter if customer service is doesn't matter if customer service is doing great and the podcast isn't. Like, doing great and the podcast isn't. Like, doing great and the podcast isn't. Like, we're all in the same boat, right? we're all in the same boat, right? we're all in the same boat, right? >> Yeah. So, that's that's great. So, you >> Yeah. So, that's that's great. So, you >> Yeah. So, that's that's great. So, you approach it more out of joy now and approach it more out of joy now and approach it more out of joy now and delight. delight. delight. >> Yeah. and not just not my own but more >> Yeah. and not just not my own but more >> Yeah. and not just not my own but more like just last night I was at this like just last night I was at this like just last night I was at this dinner and this husband and wife got up dinner and this husband and wife got up dinner and this husband and wife got up to speak and he's an entrepreneur and it to speak and he's an entrepreneur and it to speak and he's an entrepreneur and it was this awesome and I was like is this was this awesome and I was like is this was this awesome and I was like is this going to be boring cuz they were just going to be boring cuz they were just going to be boring cuz they were just asking him questions about their asking him questions about their asking him questions about their marriage and about and it was amazing marriage and about and it was amazing marriage and about and it was amazing and they asked him about and they asked him about and they asked him about entrepreneurship and and he said because entrepreneurship and and he said because entrepreneurship and and he said because he's an entrepreneur and he said he's an entrepreneur and he said he's an entrepreneur and he said >> you know you're going to be okay when >> you know you're going to be okay when >> you know you're going to be okay when you see a problem and you feel the pain you see a problem and you feel the pain you see a problem and you feel the pain of it and nobody else is doing anything of it and nobody else is doing anything of it and nobody else is doing anything about it because it's in that about it because it's in that about it because it's in that understanding of the pain that you know understanding of the pain that you know understanding of the pain that you know you're going to be able to provide you're going to be able to provide you're going to be able to provide something that people need something that people need something that people need >> as opposed to going I want to be an >> as opposed to going I want to be an >> as opposed to going I want to be an entrepreneur. What should I do? What entrepreneur. What should I do? What entrepreneur. What should I do? What should I do? And then you come up with should I do? And then you come up with should I do? And then you come up with an idea. But it's like and and I'm an idea. But it's like and and I'm an idea. But it's like and and I'm actually realizing that much of what actually realizing that much of what actually realizing that much of what I've written about comes from my own I've written about comes from my own I've written about comes from my own like curiosity and struggle and like curiosity and struggle and like curiosity and struggle and frustration and what what you and I have frustration and what what you and I have frustration and what what you and I have been talking about over the last year.

been talking about over the last year. been talking about over the last year. What I've gone through when I was going What I've gone through when I was going What I've gone through when I was going through it, I was not letting myself through it, I was not letting myself through it, I was not letting myself think Carrie like, "Oh, I'm going to think Carrie like, "Oh, I'm going to think Carrie like, "Oh, I'm going to write a book. I'm going to write a book. write a book. I'm going to write a book. write a book. I'm going to write a book. I'm not going to." I said, "This is not I'm not going to." I said, "This is not I'm not going to." I said, "This is not about that." about that." about that." But there was a there was an ancillary But there was a there was an ancillary But there was a there was an ancillary problem that I realized I I was always problem that I realized I I was always problem that I realized I I was always curious and pain in pain about and that curious and pain in pain about and that curious and pain in pain about and that is how do you get started in just in is how do you get started in just in is how do you get started in just in understanding yourself and thinking understanding yourself and thinking understanding yourself and thinking about how you're going to improve about how you're going to improve about how you're going to improve >> and like early early early I'm I'm an >> and like early early early I'm I'm an >> and like early early early I'm I'm an on-ramp guy and and so I realized I want on-ramp guy and and so I realized I want on-ramp guy and and so I realized I want to help other people onramp to what they to help other people onramp to what they to help other people onramp to what they might need to understand about might need to understand about might need to understand about themselves and maybe it'll take them to themselves and maybe it'll take them to themselves and maybe it'll take them to where I got maybe it'll take them to a where I got maybe it'll take them to a where I got maybe it'll take them to a coach. Maybe it'll take them to a a coach. Maybe it'll take them to a a coach. Maybe it'll take them to a a program on the internet or a book, but program on the internet or a book, but program on the internet or a book, but nobody ever made it easy for me to nobody ever made it easy for me to nobody ever made it easy for me to on-ramp. And I think about this in terms on-ramp. And I think about this in terms on-ramp. And I think about this in terms of of of >> unwrap, you mean to on-ramp? You meant >> unwrap, you mean to on-ramp? You meant >> unwrap, you mean to on-ramp? You meant you mean what? you mean what? you mean what? >> Begin moving forward and saying, "Who am >> Begin moving forward and saying, "Who am >> Begin moving forward and saying, "Who am I? Is there some lowhanging fruit here I? Is there some lowhanging fruit here I? Is there some lowhanging fruit here that I might need to start with?" And in that I might need to start with?" And in that I might need to start with?" And in in faith, I'm always interested in in faith, I'm always interested in in faith, I'm always interested in on-ramps because I'll meet with people on-ramps because I'll meet with people on-ramps because I'll meet with people and I'll say, "So, how do you evangel?"

and I'll say, "So, how do you evangel?" and I'll say, "So, how do you evangel?" And they're like, "Well, you know, it's And they're like, "Well, you know, it's And they're like, "Well, you know, it's the charurrima. Do you know what that the charurrima. Do you know what that the charurrima. Do you know what that word means? It's the Greek word for word means? It's the Greek word for word means? It's the Greek word for gospel." And I'm like, "Don't say that. gospel." And I'm like, "Don't say that. gospel." And I'm like, "Don't say that. Nobody knows what that means. They're Nobody knows what that means. They're Nobody knows what that means. They're like, well, you know, you have to like, well, you know, you have to like, well, you know, you have to understand the uh exigists or whatever understand the uh exigists or whatever understand the uh exigists or whatever else. [laughter] And I'm like, oh my else. [laughter] And I'm like, oh my else. [laughter] And I'm like, oh my gosh. And so I am an on-ramp guy where I gosh. And so I am an on-ramp guy where I gosh. And so I am an on-ramp guy where I like to go back and say things that like to go back and say things that like to go back and say things that people go, "Oh, I never really people go, "Oh, I never really people go, "Oh, I never really understood this." And like I'll talk to understood this." And like I'll talk to understood this." And like I'll talk to priests and ministers at church and I'll priests and ministers at church and I'll priests and ministers at church and I'll say, "Hey, when you get up to read say, "Hey, when you get up to read say, "Hey, when you get up to read something from the Bible, give a little something from the Bible, give a little something from the Bible, give a little context." Cuz they don't really know who context." Cuz they don't really know who context." Cuz they don't really know who the Corinthians are. the Corinthians are. the Corinthians are. >> No, they really [laughter] don't. And >> No, they really [laughter] don't. And >> No, they really [laughter] don't. And they're like, "What do you mean they they're like, "What do you mean they they're like, "What do you mean they don't know?" They they don't. 10% do and don't know?" They they don't. 10% do and don't know?" They they don't. 10% do and the 90% you go, "Hey, let me tell you the 90% you go, "Hey, let me tell you the 90% you go, "Hey, let me tell you where Corinth is and remember what was where Corinth is and remember what was where Corinth is and remember what was going on and why Paul's writing to going on and why Paul's writing to going on and why Paul's writing to them." And by the way, if Paul's in them." And by the way, if Paul's in them." And by the way, if Paul's in prison, I want you to think about this. prison, I want you to think about this. prison, I want you to think about this. It takes 15 seconds. Yep. It takes 15 seconds. Yep. It takes 15 seconds. Yep. >> And 90% of the people go, "Thank you for >> And 90% of the people go, "Thank you for >> And 90% of the people go, "Thank you for doing that." Cuz they're all sitting doing that." Cuz they're all sitting doing that." Cuz they're all sitting there going, "Well, I guess everybody there going, "Well, I guess everybody there going, "Well, I guess everybody else knows who the Corinthians are but else knows who the Corinthians are but else knows who the Corinthians are but me." me." me." >> No, it's true. And even if you know >> No, it's true. And even if you know >> No, it's true. And even if you know sometimes the story, which I think is sometimes the story, which I think is sometimes the story, which I think is single digit. single digit. single digit. >> Yes. I think it was an Old Testament >> Yes. I think it was an Old Testament >> Yes. I think it was an Old Testament prophet who said the Bible is like a prophet who said the Bible is like a prophet who said the Bible is like a puzzle and all the pieces are out of puzzle and all the pieces are out of puzzle and all the pieces are out of order. And so you know, oh that's Noah, order. And so you know, oh that's Noah, order. And so you know, oh that's Noah, that's Moses. But you don't know whether that's Moses. But you don't know whether that's Moses. But you don't know whether Noah goes before Moses or after Moses or Noah goes before Moses or after Moses or Noah goes before Moses or after Moses or where Egypt is or where Isaiah is. It's where Egypt is or where Isaiah is. It's where Egypt is or where Isaiah is. It's just all a mess on the table.

just all a mess on the table. just all a mess on the table. >> You know what's a really cool thing in >> You know what's a really cool thing in >> You know what's a really cool thing in the Catholic Church is they they order the Catholic Church is they they order the Catholic Church is they they order the readings like Old Testament, the readings like Old Testament, the readings like Old Testament, >> Psalm, New Testament, Gospel to show the >> Psalm, New Testament, Gospel to show the >> Psalm, New Testament, Gospel to show the connection. connection. connection. But most of the time the priest doesn't But most of the time the priest doesn't But most of the time the priest doesn't explain. [laughter] explain. [laughter] explain. [laughter] So you're going like, "Hey, look at So you're going like, "Hey, look at So you're going like, "Hey, look at this. There's a theme. [laughter] this. There's a theme. [laughter] this. There's a theme. [laughter] Jesus is connected all the way back to Jesus is connected all the way back to Jesus is connected all the way back to this." And it's like, "Can you" And I this." And it's like, "Can you" And I this." And it's like, "Can you" And I think I think a lot of times the priest think I think a lot of times the priest think I think a lot of times the priest and ministers go, "Yeah, people already and ministers go, "Yeah, people already and ministers go, "Yeah, people already know this." know this." know this." >> Right. Right. No, I don't want to >> Right. Right. No, I don't want to >> Right. Right. No, I don't want to insult. insult. insult. >> I say a lot of your seminary colleagues >> I say a lot of your seminary colleagues >> I say a lot of your seminary colleagues don't know it either. don't know it either. don't know it either. >> Exactly. I always say this like I think >> Exactly. I always say this like I think >> Exactly. I always say this like I think everyone in the world who is a follower everyone in the world who is a follower everyone in the world who is a follower of Jesus, we're meant to want to be of Jesus, we're meant to want to be of Jesus, we're meant to want to be saintly, to be holy, to be satisfied. saintly, to be holy, to be satisfied. saintly, to be holy, to be satisfied. Nobody should. Matthew Kelly, a writer, Nobody should. Matthew Kelly, a writer, Nobody should. Matthew Kelly, a writer, once said, "The greatest tragedy is once said, "The greatest tragedy is once said, "The greatest tragedy is there's so many people that grow up there's so many people that grow up there's so many people that grow up thinking they're not supposed to be a thinking they're not supposed to be a thinking they're not supposed to be a saint." Like, that's for somebody else. saint." Like, that's for somebody else. saint." Like, that's for somebody else. If I And I would like to be a saint. I If I And I would like to be a saint. I If I And I would like to be a saint. I That doesn't mean I'm going to be known That doesn't mean I'm going to be known That doesn't mean I'm going to be known for one necessarily or anything like for one necessarily or anything like for one necessarily or anything like that, but if I were a saint, I'd be the that, but if I were a saint, I'd be the that, but if I were a saint, I'd be the patron saint of the ignorant. I mean, I patron saint of the ignorant. I mean, I patron saint of the ignorant. I mean, I have a real heart for people that go, I have a real heart for people that go, I have a real heart for people that go, I don't get it. I love meeting them.

don't get it. I love meeting them. don't get it. I love meeting them. Whether it's faith, business, Whether it's faith, business, Whether it's faith, business, leadership, personal development, it's leadership, personal development, it's leadership, personal development, it's the ones who go, I was afraid to ask the the ones who go, I was afraid to ask the the ones who go, I was afraid to ask the question because I thought it was dumb. question because I thought it was dumb. question because I thought it was dumb. I love those people. I love those people. I love those people. That's cuz I relate to them. You know, That's cuz I relate to them. You know, That's cuz I relate to them. You know, boy, it's funny how you can have such a boy, it's funny how you can have such a boy, it's funny how you can have such a rich conversation about one idea, we go rich conversation about one idea, we go rich conversation about one idea, we go to work to heal. to work to heal. to work to heal. Oh, when you when you think about the Oh, when you when you think about the Oh, when you when you think about the wounds having worked with the top wounds having worked with the top wounds having worked with the top leaders in the world and you're super leaders in the world and you're super leaders in the world and you're super involved in the church space, Roman involved in the church space, Roman involved in the church space, Roman Catholic and Protestant evangelical, you Catholic and Protestant evangelical, you Catholic and Protestant evangelical, you know, you know, you know everybody. know, you know, you know everybody. know, you know, you know everybody. >> We You have I have so many I didn't even >> We You have I have so many I didn't even >> We You have I have so many I didn't even know we had all these mutual know we had all these mutual know we had all these mutual >> all these common friends. >> all these common friends. >> all these common friends. >> Pat, when you see wounds, you walk into >> Pat, when you see wounds, you walk into >> Pat, when you see wounds, you walk into a seauite, you walk into a church, you a seauite, you walk into a church, you a seauite, you walk into a church, you just see the wounds. What are what are just see the wounds. What are what are just see the wounds. What are what are the ones that you just keep seeing over the ones that you just keep seeing over the ones that you just keep seeing over and over? and over? and over? >> Okay. I'm not enough. It's the >> Okay. I'm not enough. It's the >> Okay. I'm not enough. It's the performance one because I see high performance one because I see high performance one because I see high achievers. Yes. achievers. Yes. achievers. Yes. >> And if look at the the best athletes, >> And if look at the the best athletes, >> And if look at the the best athletes, the best um artists, the best the the best um artists, the best the the best um artists, the best the leaders oftentimes their their leaders oftentimes their their leaders oftentimes their their superpower is actually their wound which superpower is actually their wound which superpower is actually their wound which says it's never enough.

says it's never enough. says it's never enough. You go to a football player like hey you You go to a football player like hey you You go to a football player like hey you won three Super Bowls. I got to win won three Super Bowls. I got to win won three Super Bowls. I got to win another one. And you're like why? another one. And you're like why? another one. And you're like why? [laughter] It's never enough. and you [laughter] It's never enough. and you [laughter] It's never enough. and you realize and and that's wonderful for realize and and that's wonderful for realize and and that's wonderful for their fans or for the the the coach and their fans or for the the the coach and their fans or for the the the coach and but it's like oh you're not complete. So but it's like oh you're not complete. So but it's like oh you're not complete. So then I'm never enough and I have to then I'm never enough and I have to then I'm never enough and I have to perform to prove myself. And the reason perform to prove myself. And the reason perform to prove myself. And the reason why I think so many people don't get why I think so many people don't get why I think so many people don't get that addressed is because they think that addressed is because they think that addressed is because they think well if I address that maybe I'm going well if I address that maybe I'm going well if I address that maybe I'm going to lose my whole thing. Yes. That I'm to lose my whole thing. Yes. That I'm to lose my whole thing. Yes. That I'm going to lose my superpower if I get going to lose my superpower if I get going to lose my superpower if I get healthy. I've talked to John Chris about healthy. I've talked to John Chris about healthy. I've talked to John Chris about it. John's coming back on the podcast it. John's coming back on the podcast it. John's coming back on the podcast >> and you know he got quote cancelled and >> and you know he got quote cancelled and >> and you know he got quote cancelled and then went into rehab and like a deep then went into rehab and like a deep then went into rehab and like a deep deep deep life change. deep deep life change. deep deep life change. >> Oh, praise God. >> Oh, praise God. >> Oh, praise God. >> I think he's a comedian. >> I think he's a comedian. >> I think he's a comedian. >> Yeah, I know. I know. >> Yeah, I know. I know. >> Yeah, I know. I know. >> Oh, you know John, >> Oh, you know John, >> Oh, you know John, >> but I didn't know he went through rehab. >> but I didn't know he went through rehab. >> but I didn't know he went through rehab. >> Yeah, he went through rehab pretty >> Yeah, he went through rehab pretty >> Yeah, he went through rehab pretty deeply. Talked about it very openly on deeply. Talked about it very openly on deeply. Talked about it very openly on this podcast. this podcast. this podcast. >> I think comedians more than ministers, >> I think comedians more than ministers, >> I think comedians more than ministers, more than CEOs more than CEOs more than CEOs that they are there to make other people that they are there to make other people that they are there to make other people laugh. laugh. laugh. There is such a a visceral need, you There is such a a visceral need, you There is such a a visceral need, you know.

know. know. >> Yeah. Yeah. He talks about it exactly >> Yeah. Yeah. He talks about it exactly >> Yeah. Yeah. He talks about it exactly that he did that on my show where he's that he did that on my show where he's that he did that on my show where he's like every time he heard the laugh, it like every time he heard the laugh, it like every time he heard the laugh, it was like somebody was injecting him was like somebody was injecting him was like somebody was injecting him >> and you need more and more and more and >> and you need more and more and more and >> and you need more and more and more and eventually like doesn't work anymore. eventually like doesn't work anymore. eventually like doesn't work anymore. >> Yeah. You could do an arena >> Yeah. You could do an arena >> Yeah. You could do an arena >> full of people >> full of people >> full of people >> and he has >> and he has >> and he has >> Yeah. And you know, I would say he's >> Yeah. And you know, I would say he's >> Yeah. And you know, I would say he's funnier now than he was before he went funnier now than he was before he went funnier now than he was before he went through his transformation. And I was through his transformation. And I was through his transformation. And I was scared of that. Like when I burned out scared of that. Like when I burned out scared of that. Like when I burned out in 2006, I thought, well, all the things in 2006, I thought, well, all the things in 2006, I thought, well, all the things that made me a successful leader are that made me a successful leader are that made me a successful leader are gone now. Like God, you can touch me, gone now. Like God, you can touch me, gone now. Like God, you can touch me, fix me, but don't fix that, right? Like fix me, but don't fix that, right? Like fix me, but don't fix that, right? Like don't don't fix that. don't don't fix that. don't don't fix that. >> You're coming out of the other side of >> You're coming out of the other side of >> You're coming out of the other side of your precursor and now the dark knight your precursor and now the dark knight your precursor and now the dark knight of the soul. of the soul. of the soul. >> What do you think happened to that mojo >> What do you think happened to that mojo >> What do you think happened to that mojo to that that thing that drives Patrick to that that thing that drives Patrick to that that thing that drives Patrick Lion? Lion? Lion? >> You know what I think happened to it? I >> You know what I think happened to it? I >> You know what I think happened to it? I think first of all the think first of all the think first of all the I've replaced my engine with God's I've replaced my engine with God's I've replaced my engine with God's because it's instead of me being because it's instead of me being because it's instead of me being motivated by what I think I need to do.

motivated by what I think I need to do. motivated by what I think I need to do. I'm now plugged into, hey, what do you I'm now plugged into, hey, what do you I'm now plugged into, hey, what do you want me to do? Cuz truthfully, if God want me to do? Cuz truthfully, if God want me to do? Cuz truthfully, if God said to me today, tomorrow, I want you said to me today, tomorrow, I want you said to me today, tomorrow, I want you to to do no more of this and I want you to to do no more of this and I want you to to do no more of this and I want you to go do something else that he put in to go do something else that he put in to go do something else that he put in my heart and nobody's ever going to know my heart and nobody's ever going to know my heart and nobody's ever going to know about it. I'd be like, then I want to do about it. I'd be like, then I want to do about it. I'd be like, then I want to do that. that. that. And I think he's improved the steering And I think he's improved the steering And I think he's improved the steering so much because now things are like I'm so much because now things are like I'm so much because now things are like I'm able to see where I might go and do able to see where I might go and do able to see where I might go and do things that that I think are better. things that that I think are better. things that that I think are better. Whereas before it was like I have to Whereas before it was like I have to Whereas before it was like I have to control this. I have to have the plan. I control this. I have to have the plan. I control this. I have to have the plan. I think every company, every church needs think every company, every church needs think every company, every church needs to have a plan. But as they used to say to have a plan. But as they used to say to have a plan. But as they used to say at seventh grade dances, leave room for at seventh grade dances, leave room for at seventh grade dances, leave room for the Holy Spirit. [laughter] the Holy Spirit. [laughter] the Holy Spirit. [laughter] And that is but your best plans might be And that is but your best plans might be And that is but your best plans might be ridiculous. have one because like hey ridiculous. have one because like hey ridiculous. have one because like hey all other things being being equal I all other things being being equal I all other things being being equal I think that's where we're going to go but think that's where we're going to go but think that's where we're going to go but he's going to come along and go are you he's going to come along and go are you he's going to come along and go are you flexible enough to go here and that's flexible enough to go here and that's flexible enough to go here and that's where I am now like I know the things where I am now like I know the things where I am now like I know the things I'm working on I'm very excited but I'm working on I'm very excited but I'm working on I'm very excited but whatever he wants from me is all I want whatever he wants from me is all I want whatever he wants from me is all I want and here's the mystery to me you know and here's the mystery to me you know and here's the mystery to me you know you look at you had this dark knight of you look at you had this dark knight of you look at you had this dark knight of the soul at 59 the soul at 59 the soul at 59 one temptation would be like well and one temptation would be like well and one temptation would be like well and everything I did before that was garbage everything I did before that was garbage everything I did before that was garbage but it's not these are beautiful but it's not these are beautiful but it's not these are beautiful beautiful works that God used in the beautiful works that God used in the beautiful works that God used in the midst of the pain. This is the mystery midst of the pain. This is the mystery midst of the pain. This is the mystery of our faith.

of our faith. of our faith. >> You were broken. I'm broken. We have >> You were broken. I'm broken. We have >> You were broken. I'm broken. We have people that we've worked with for 20 people that we've worked with for 20 people that we've worked with for 20 years. You know, women we've been years. You know, women we've been years. You know, women we've been married to for over 30, right? That kind married to for over 30, right? That kind married to for over 30, right? That kind of thing where he works in the midst of of thing where he works in the midst of of thing where he works in the midst of the pain. And I'm sure there are moments the pain. And I'm sure there are moments the pain. And I'm sure there are moments in your parenting you wish you could get in your parenting you wish you could get in your parenting you wish you could get back. 100%. Talk to my boys about that back. 100%. Talk to my boys about that back. 100%. Talk to my boys about that all the time. all the time. all the time. >> Oh man. >> Oh man. >> Oh man. >> But God is at work in that. And he >> But God is at work in that. And he >> But God is at work in that. And he produced like a beautiful lifetime body produced like a beautiful lifetime body produced like a beautiful lifetime body of work in you so far. And there's much of work in you so far. And there's much of work in you so far. And there's much more to come. When you think about that, more to come. When you think about that, more to come. When you think about that, what do you think about because you look what do you think about because you look what do you think about because you look at your previous work and dude, it's at your previous work and dude, it's at your previous work and dude, it's good. good. good. I think that so when I came up with I think that so when I came up with I think that so when I came up with working genius and I say and I I'll just working genius and I say and I I'll just working genius and I say and I I'll just say I'm going to steal your water say I'm going to steal your water say I'm going to steal your water because I need the water. because I need the water. because I need the water. >> But when I when working genius came out, >> But when I when working genius came out, >> But when I when working genius came out, >> wouldn't allow you to drink my glass of >> wouldn't allow you to drink my glass of >> wouldn't allow you to drink my glass of water? But um water? But um water? But um >> germs are not a problem for me. >> germs are not a problem for me. >> germs are not a problem for me. >> Oh, okay. Great, great, great. So, um, I >> Oh, okay. Great, great, great. So, um, I >> Oh, okay. Great, great, great. So, um, I when that book came about five years ago when that book came about five years ago when that book came about five years ago in my office, I remember very well that in my office, I remember very well that in my office, I remember very well that for four hours in the midst of coming up for four hours in the midst of coming up for four hours in the midst of coming up with it, my memory was gone. Like after with it, my memory was gone. Like after with it, my memory was gone. Like after it was over, I don't remember those four it was over, I don't remember those four it was over, I don't remember those four hours very well.

hours very well. hours very well. >> I honestly were whiteboarding it. I >> I honestly were whiteboarding it. I >> I honestly were whiteboarding it. I remember the story. remember the story. remember the story. >> And I remember thinking if that was >> And I remember thinking if that was >> And I remember thinking if that was literally and and I know that was God literally and and I know that was God literally and and I know that was God going, "It's not yours, it's mine." going, "It's not yours, it's mine." going, "It's not yours, it's mine." because it would be you would probably because it would be you would probably because it would be you would probably have a hard time receiving the like you have a hard time receiving the like you have a hard time receiving the like you came up with that. came up with that. came up with that. >> Yeah. The working genius. >> Yeah. The working genius. >> Yeah. The working genius. >> And I think he said, "I'm going to give >> And I think he said, "I'm going to give >> And I think he said, "I'm going to give you a grace. I'm going to kind of black you a grace. I'm going to kind of black you a grace. I'm going to kind of black you out just a little bit." I don't mean you out just a little bit." I don't mean you out just a little bit." I don't mean like I was like blacked out, but I don't like I was like blacked out, but I don't like I was like blacked out, but I don't have the recollection of it because have the recollection of it because have the recollection of it because everything's a gift from God, right? everything's a gift from God, right? everything's a gift from God, right? Whether we were super aware of it or Whether we were super aware of it or Whether we were super aware of it or not. And in that case, he said, "I'm not. And in that case, he said, "I'm not. And in that case, he said, "I'm going to give you this and you're not going to give you this and you're not going to give you this and you're not going to remember all the details of going to remember all the details of going to remember all the details of it." And and it was like such a grace it." And and it was like such a grace it." And and it was like such a grace like this is not me. which is which was like this is not me. which is which was like this is not me. which is which was great because and that was not like oh great because and that was not like oh great because and that was not like oh no it wasn't me. It was like freedom no it wasn't me. It was like freedom no it wasn't me. It was like freedom like like like >> oh the confirmation that this is not >> oh the confirmation that this is not >> oh the confirmation that this is not about me and here's the thing that gets about me and here's the thing that gets about me and here's the thing that gets me you know when you were getting that me you know when you were getting that me you know when you were getting that download or you know this is I think download or you know this is I think download or you know this is I think 2006 if I remember right silos politics 2006 if I remember right silos politics 2006 if I remember right silos politics >> you might remember it because >> you might remember it because >> you might remember it because >> I do it came at a very helpful time for >> I do it came at a very helpful time for >> I do it came at a very helpful time for me Pat me Pat me Pat >> as a leader you were as loved then as >> as a leader you were as loved then as >> as a leader you were as loved then as you are now.

you are now. you are now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. That's the mystery, right? That's the mystery, right? That's the mystery, right? >> Whether I fully well not fully >> Whether I fully well not fully >> Whether I fully well not fully understood it, felt it, understood it, felt it, understood it, felt it, >> accessed it, received it, it was true. >> accessed it, received it, it was true. >> accessed it, received it, it was true. When that's really deep. It is really When that's really deep. It is really When that's really deep. It is really deep. Like in in my dysfunction, in my deep. Like in in my dysfunction, in my deep. Like in in my dysfunction, in my anger, in my frustration, in my anger, in my frustration, in my anger, in my frustration, in my immaturity, I was deeply deeply loved. immaturity, I was deeply deeply loved. immaturity, I was deeply deeply loved. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And in my enlightened state today, >> And in my enlightened state today, >> And in my enlightened state today, [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> you're actually loved a little less. a >> you're actually loved a little less. a >> you're actually loved a little less. a little less. Exactly. We'll look back on little less. Exactly. We'll look back on little less. Exactly. We'll look back on this and it'll be like, "Oh, I was so this and it'll be like, "Oh, I was so this and it'll be like, "Oh, I was so dumb when I was 60." Right? [laughter] dumb when I was 60." Right? [laughter] dumb when I was 60." Right? [laughter] Like, you know, it's funny if for the Like, you know, it's funny if for the Like, you know, it's funny if for the leaders listening now, CEOs, board leaders listening now, CEOs, board leaders listening now, CEOs, board members, pastors, church staff who hear members, pastors, church staff who hear members, pastors, church staff who hear their story in this story and they're their story in this story and they're their story in this story and they're like, "Oh, maybe there's more work for like, "Oh, maybe there's more work for like, "Oh, maybe there's more work for me to do." What do you want to tell me to do." What do you want to tell me to do." What do you want to tell them? That there's always more work to them? That there's always more work to them? That there's always more work to do. So don't go like because I Hey, you do. So don't go like because I Hey, you do. So don't go like because I Hey, you and I both were like I hope I never go and I both were like I hope I never go and I both were like I hope I never go through that again. through that again. through that again. >> Oh, I know. I know. I'm not wishing it >> Oh, I know. I know. I'm not wishing it >> Oh, I know. I know. I'm not wishing it on anyone, on anyone, on anyone, >> but that doesn't mean there's not more >> but that doesn't mean there's not more >> but that doesn't mean there's not more work to do. And so go, hey, instead of work to do. And so go, hey, instead of work to do. And so go, hey, instead of going, I wonder if there's more work to going, I wonder if there's more work to going, I wonder if there's more work to do to go, I wonder what the work is that do to go, I wonder what the work is that do to go, I wonder what the work is that I have to do. The other thing is know I have to do. The other thing is know I have to do. The other thing is know that. And this is so I mean God's will that. And this is so I mean God's will that. And this is so I mean God's will is always best. And even if it's like is always best. And even if it's like is always best. And even if it's like that, we have to go through that. He that, we have to go through that. He that, we have to go through that. He knows why. And so sometimes just holding knows why. And so sometimes just holding knows why. And so sometimes just holding on to that.

on to that. on to that. Um and and maybe we won't have to go Um and and maybe we won't have to go Um and and maybe we won't have to go through anything too too hard. through anything too too hard. through anything too too hard. But if we do, it's because he knows we But if we do, it's because he knows we But if we do, it's because he knows we need that cuz he only gives us what's need that cuz he only gives us what's need that cuz he only gives us what's going to bring him us to him. Um so going to bring him us to him. Um so going to bring him us to him. Um so don't be afraid of it. And help. It's so don't be afraid of it. And help. It's so don't be afraid of it. And help. It's so great when you take that and you go, great when you take that and you go, great when you take that and you go, "Oh, I want to I want to find other "Oh, I want to I want to find other "Oh, I want to I want to find other people who are going through this and people who are going through this and people who are going through this and help them." help them." help them." Wow. I mean, isn't that how God made us? Wow. I mean, isn't that how God made us? Wow. I mean, isn't that how God made us? Is when we're loving on other people our Is when we're loving on other people our Is when we're loving on other people our pain, we can make it redemptive and and pain, we can make it redemptive and and pain, we can make it redemptive and and helpful. helpful. helpful. >> I look at that dark night of the soul >> I look at that dark night of the soul >> I look at that dark night of the soul for me, it's definitely made me a better for me, it's definitely made me a better for me, it's definitely made me a better husband. It's made me, I think, a better husband. It's made me, I think, a better husband. It's made me, I think, a better dad and definitely a better boss. dad and definitely a better boss. dad and definitely a better boss. >> Yeah, me too. >> Yeah, me too. >> Yeah, me too. >> And yeah, you as well. >> And yeah, you as well. >> And yeah, you as well. >> What a grace. >> What a grace. >> What a grace. >> I know. And so now you get to go through >> I know. And so now you get to go through >> I know. And so now you get to go through life and whether the results are the life and whether the results are the life and whether the results are the same or better, you know. And the other same or better, you know. And the other same or better, you know. And the other thing I think too is it happened to me thing I think too is it happened to me thing I think too is it happened to me when I was around 40 41 and I didn't when I was around 40 41 and I didn't when I was around 40 41 and I didn't have this or I didn't have the audience have this or I didn't have the audience have this or I didn't have the audience we have now. You know, I had a church of we have now. You know, I had a church of we have now. You know, I had a church of eight or 900 and I was enough man. I was eight or 900 and I was enough man. I was eight or 900 and I was enough man. I was like it's going to kill me. And if if like it's going to kill me. And if if like it's going to kill me. And if if you had shown me what I would be you had shown me what I would be you had shown me what I would be entrusted with in my 40s, 50s and entrusted with in my 40s, 50s and entrusted with in my 40s, 50s and beyond, it would have crushed me. I have beyond, it would have crushed me. I have beyond, it would have crushed me. I have no idea. I don't have enough hours in no idea. I don't have enough hours in no idea. I don't have enough hours in the day. And now, you know, it's one of the day. And now, you know, it's one of the day. And now, you know, it's one of the great joys. So I think it it the great joys. So I think it it the great joys. So I think it it expanded my capacity and that would be expanded my capacity and that would be expanded my capacity and that would be my thought to leaders who are afraid of my thought to leaders who are afraid of my thought to leaders who are afraid of it is if God wants to do this he wants it is if God wants to do this he wants it is if God wants to do this he wants to take you deep. It's cuz he wants to to take you deep. It's cuz he wants to to take you deep. It's cuz he wants to take you far.

take you far. take you far. >> Yes. Absolutely. And don't you don't >> Yes. Absolutely. And don't you don't >> Yes. Absolutely. And don't you don't have to wait till you're 59. have to wait till you're 59. have to wait till you're 59. >> Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Please take >> Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Please take >> Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Please take the 29year-old version of this. the 29year-old version of this. the 29year-old version of this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It would be fine. >> It would be fine. >> It would be fine. >> And I have some friends that are going >> And I have some friends that are going >> And I have some friends that are going through difficult stuff right now. I'm through difficult stuff right now. I'm through difficult stuff right now. I'm like, "Oh, no, no. This is God giving like, "Oh, no, no. This is God giving like, "Oh, no, no. This is God giving you the opportunity to go through you the opportunity to go through you the opportunity to go through something hard right now." something hard right now." something hard right now." >> And and and I don't look back and go, >> And and and I don't look back and go, >> And and and I don't look back and go, "Oh, man. God, how come it took me so "Oh, man. God, how come it took me so "Oh, man. God, how come it took me so long to go through?" It's like, "Hey, long to go through?" It's like, "Hey, long to go through?" It's like, "Hey, 59. Could have been 79." 59. Could have been 79." 59. Could have been 79." >> Yeah. Yeah. And maybe there'll be >> Yeah. Yeah. And maybe there'll be >> Yeah. Yeah. And maybe there'll be another one for you and me, but I will another one for you and me, but I will another one for you and me, but I will probably resist it and then embrace it. probably resist it and then embrace it. probably resist it and then embrace it. >> And if if you do, give me a call. >> And if if you do, give me a call. >> And if if you do, give me a call. >> Well, there's a brotherhood, right? >> Well, there's a brotherhood, right? >> Well, there's a brotherhood, right? There's There's There's >> people who know. Man, we went nowhere >> people who know. Man, we went nowhere >> people who know. Man, we went nowhere where we thought we would go with this where we thought we would go with this where we thought we would go with this conversation. But this has been so good conversation. But this has been so good conversation. But this has been so good for my soul. for my soul. for my soul. >> Me, too. >> Me, too. >> Me, too. >> And thank you for being so honest. You >> And thank you for being so honest. You >> And thank you for being so honest. You know, it's it's the we admire people's know, it's it's the we admire people's know, it's it's the we admire people's strengths, but we resonate with their strengths, but we resonate with their strengths, but we resonate with their weaknesses. And you know, in being so weaknesses. And you know, in being so weaknesses. And you know, in being so honest and so vulnerable, vulnerable honest and so vulnerable, vulnerable honest and so vulnerable, vulnerable like two friends just talking today, like two friends just talking today, like two friends just talking today, >> you really really helped tens of >> you really really helped tens of >> you really really helped tens of thousands of leaders. thousands of leaders. thousands of leaders. >> Wait, are you recording this? [laughter] >> Wait, are you recording this? [laughter] >> Wait, are you recording this? [laughter] >> Yeah. Trick, trick, trick, trick, trick.

>> Yeah. Trick, trick, trick, trick, trick. >> Yeah. Trick, trick, trick, trick, trick. >> No, praise God for all of that. Thanks. >> No, praise God for all of that. Thanks. >> No, praise God for all of that. Thanks. >> Hey, um, people who want to follow you >> Hey, um, people who want to follow you >> Hey, um, people who want to follow you these days, you're working on a new these days, you're working on a new these days, you're working on a new book, I guess. book, I guess. book, I guess. >> Yeah. And a new project, but that's >> Yeah. And a new project, but that's >> Yeah. And a new project, but that's that's still that's still that's still >> way down the road. I will come back >> way down the road. I will come back >> way down the road. I will come back then. then. then. >> Hopefully not working genius. Um, >> Hopefully not working genius. Um, >> Hopefully not working genius. Um, >> and you know, one of my favorite, >> and you know, one of my favorite, >> and you know, one of my favorite, another favorite book of yours that I another favorite book of yours that I another favorite book of yours that I would give a huge shout out to is The would give a huge shout out to is The would give a huge shout out to is The Motive. I saw it on your desk. I love Motive. I saw it on your desk. I love Motive. I saw it on your desk. I love that. that. that. >> You know, something that is the book >> You know, something that is the book >> You know, something that is the book that I wrote older because I realized that I wrote older because I realized that I wrote older because I realized all this stuff works, but only if you all this stuff works, but only if you all this stuff works, but only if you have if you're leading for the right have if you're leading for the right have if you're leading for the right reasons. reasons. reasons. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so, it's I would say that's the >> And so, it's I would say that's the >> And so, it's I would say that's the first book I give to a young leader and first book I give to a young leader and first book I give to a young leader and say make sure you you're clear on your say make sure you you're clear on your say make sure you you're clear on your motives first. motives first. motives first. >> You read the motive. That was such a >> You read the motive. That was such a >> You read the motive. That was such a good book. Pat, till next time. Thank good book. Pat, till next time. Thank good book. Pat, till next time. Thank you. you. you. >> Thanks, Gary. >> Thanks, Gary. >> Thanks, Gary. >> That was really emotional. I said to Pat >> That was really emotional. I said to Pat >> That was really emotional. I said to Pat after, are you sure you're okay? after, are you sure you're okay? after, are you sure you're okay? Uh letting this see daylight and he is. Uh letting this see daylight and he is. Uh letting this see daylight and he is. I mean, I just appreciate really I mean, I just appreciate really I mean, I just appreciate really vulnerable leaders because you know vulnerable leaders because you know vulnerable leaders because you know what? I've been there. You've been what? I've been there. You've been what? I've been there. You've been there. Um we've all been there. And the there. Um we've all been there. And the there. Um we've all been there. And the ability to talk about it in public ability to talk about it in public ability to talk about it in public forums like this, I think just makes us forums like this, I think just makes us forums like this, I think just makes us all better. So, if you're in a really all better. So, if you're in a really all better. So, if you're in a really tough season right now, I just want to tough season right now, I just want to tough season right now, I just want to encourage you to hang in there. Um don't encourage you to hang in there. Um don't encourage you to hang in there. Um don't let this current chapter be your last let this current chapter be your last let this current chapter be your last chapter. As I always have said to myself chapter. As I always have said to myself chapter. As I always have said to myself and to a lot of other leaders, don't and to a lot of other leaders, don't and to a lot of other leaders, don't quit on a bad day. Don't quit in a bad quit on a bad day. Don't quit in a bad quit on a bad day. Don't quit in a bad season. If you can hang in there, just season. If you can hang in there, just season. If you can hang in there, just hang in there. Um, we did cover a lot.

hang in there. Um, we did cover a lot. hang in there. Um, we did cover a lot. If you want show notes, you know, move If you want show notes, you know, move If you want show notes, you know, move from the crowd to the core. We've got from the crowd to the core. We've got from the crowd to the core. We've got 20,000 leaders now inside the Art of 20,000 leaders now inside the Art of 20,000 leaders now inside the Art of Leadership Academy. You can join Leadership Academy. You can join Leadership Academy. You can join absolutely free. There is a paid tier absolutely free. There is a paid tier absolutely free. There is a paid tier where we have all kinds of amazing where we have all kinds of amazing where we have all kinds of amazing resources for you. Uh, but if you want resources for you. Uh, but if you want resources for you. Uh, but if you want to check it out, just go to the art of to check it out, just go to the art of to check it out, just go to the art of leadershipacademy.com or click the link leadershipacademy.com or click the link leadershipacademy.com or click the link wherever you are watching this episode. wherever you are watching this episode. wherever you are watching this episode. Just scroll down and you'll find it Just scroll down and you'll find it Just scroll down and you'll find it there. We'd love to welcome you into a there. We'd love to welcome you into a there. We'd love to welcome you into a very safe, thriving community where very safe, thriving community where very safe, thriving community where guess what? People actually support each guess what? People actually support each guess what? People actually support each other, where you don't have critics and other, where you don't have critics and other, where you don't have critics and trolls. You have people who are in it, trolls. You have people who are in it, trolls. You have people who are in it, who get it, and who want to make you who get it, and who want to make you who get it, and who want to make you better as a leader. And that's the kind better as a leader. And that's the kind better as a leader. And that's the kind of community I love to host and would of community I love to host and would of community I love to host and would love to have you in there. Well, next love to have you in there. Well, next love to have you in there. Well, next episode we've got Craig Rashelle and Dr. episode we've got Craig Rashelle and Dr. episode we've got Craig Rashelle and Dr. Wayne Chappelle. So Craig I know is one Wayne Chappelle. So Craig I know is one Wayne Chappelle. So Craig I know is one of those leaders who needs no of those leaders who needs no of those leaders who needs no introduction. Founding pastor of Life introduction. Founding pastor of Life introduction. Founding pastor of Life Church, just celebrated 30 years. And Church, just celebrated 30 years. And Church, just celebrated 30 years. And Dr. Wayne Chappelle is actually a Dr. Wayne Chappelle is actually a Dr. Wayne Chappelle is actually a therapist and performance coach that therapist and performance coach that therapist and performance coach that Craig hired. He introduced Dr. Chappelle Craig hired. He introduced Dr. Chappelle Craig hired. He introduced Dr. Chappelle to me. He became Craig's therapist, my to me. He became Craig's therapist, my to me. He became Craig's therapist, my therapist. And we're going to talk about therapist. And we're going to talk about therapist. And we're going to talk about times like Craig said, you know, at one times like Craig said, you know, at one times like Craig said, you know, at one point recently he thought ministry was point recently he thought ministry was point recently he thought ministry was going to kill him. and he reached out to going to kill him. and he reached out to going to kill him. and he reached out to Wayne Chappelle. They had a great Wayne Chappelle. They had a great Wayne Chappelle. They had a great conversation about it. And so if you conversation about it. And so if you conversation about it. And so if you want to have if you're interested in want to have if you're interested in want to have if you're interested in listening to Craig Gelle and I talked to listening to Craig Gelle and I talked to listening to Craig Gelle and I talked to our therapist, our therapist, our therapist, don't miss the episode. Uh it's coming don't miss the episode. Uh it's coming don't miss the episode. Uh it's coming up next. If you subscribe or follow, of up next. If you subscribe or follow, of up next. If you subscribe or follow, of course, wherever you're watching, course, wherever you're watching, course, wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening, and the vast wherever you're listening, and the vast wherever you're listening, and the vast majority of people who access an episode

majority of people who access an episode majority of people who access an episode haven't done that yet, just do it. Just haven't done that yet, just do it. Just haven't done that yet, just do it. Just press the button, follow, and you won't press the button, follow, and you won't press the button, follow, and you won't miss it. So, also coming up, we've got miss it. So, also coming up, we've got miss it. So, also coming up, we've got Beth Moore, Katie Cole, JJ and Kate Beth Moore, Katie Cole, JJ and Kate Beth Moore, Katie Cole, JJ and Kate Tomlin, Jenny Allen, and a whole lot Tomlin, Jenny Allen, and a whole lot Tomlin, Jenny Allen, and a whole lot more. Thank you so much for listening. more. Thank you so much for listening. more. Thank you so much for listening. If this conversation was helpful, share If this conversation was helpful, share If this conversation was helpful, share it with a friend. Leave us a rating and it with a friend. Leave us a rating and it with a friend. Leave us a rating and review wherever you're watching or review wherever you're watching or review wherever you're watching or listening. Or better yet, drop us a listening. Or better yet, drop us a listening. Or better yet, drop us a comment at the art of comment at the art of comment at the art of leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com once you become a member for free. And once you become a member for free. And once you become a member for free. And uh we'll have a great conversation about uh we'll have a great conversation about uh we'll have a great conversation about this and a whole lot more. We'll catch this and a whole lot more. We'll catch this and a whole lot more. We'll catch you next time. And I hope our time you next time. And I hope our time you next time. And I hope our time together today helped you identify and together today helped you identify and together today helped you identify and hopefully break a growth barrier that hopefully break a growth barrier that hopefully break a growth barrier that you're facing.