Craig Groeschel and His Therapist: What Happens When a Leader Hits a Breaking Point

thought this eventually this I'm just thought this eventually this I'm just going to die doing it. One day it's going to die doing it. One day it's going to die doing it. One day it's going to be too much. I'm going to drop going to be too much. I'm going to drop going to be too much. I'm going to drop dead and they're going to be like uh oh, dead and they're going to be like uh oh, dead and they're going to be like uh oh, he was serious. [laughter] he was serious. [laughter] he was serious. [laughter] >> See, see, I'm dead. Welcome to the >> See, see, I'm dead. Welcome to the >> See, see, I'm dead. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. I'm Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. I'm Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you're joining us. You may so glad you're joining us. You may so glad you're joining us. You may notice this is not the usual set because notice this is not the usual set because notice this is not the usual set because we are at Life Church and I have Craig we are at Life Church and I have Craig we are at Life Church and I have Craig Relle and Dr. Wayne Chappelle with me Relle and Dr. Wayne Chappelle with me Relle and Dr. Wayne Chappelle with me today. [music] Welcome to all of you who today. [music] Welcome to all of you who today. [music] Welcome to all of you who are watching, all of you who might be are watching, all of you who might be are watching, all of you who might be watching or listening for the very first watching or listening for the very first watching or listening for the very first time. We're really, really thrilled that time. We're really, really thrilled that time. We're really, really thrilled that you're here. Uh, one of the ways that you're here. Uh, one of the ways that you're here. Uh, one of the ways that you can help is give us a follow, like, you can help is give us a follow, like, you can help is give us a follow, like, subscribe, and leave a comment on this subscribe, and leave a comment on this subscribe, and leave a comment on this conversation, which I [music] think is conversation, which I [music] think is conversation, which I [music] think is going to be pretty amazing. Craig Relle, going to be pretty amazing. Craig Relle, going to be pretty amazing. Craig Relle, the founding pastor of Life [music] the founding pastor of Life [music] the founding pastor of Life [music] Church, almost 30 years, right? It'll be Church, almost 30 years, right? It'll be Church, almost 30 years, right? It'll be 30 years. Actually, it will be by the 30 years. Actually, it will be by the 30 years. Actually, it will be by the time this airs, time this airs, time this airs, >> three decades. >> three decades. >> three decades. >> Three decades. >> Three decades. >> Three decades. >> Amazing. [music] And Dr. Wayne >> Amazing. [music] And Dr. Wayne >> Amazing. [music] And Dr. Wayne Chappelle, a new name to a lot of you, Chappelle, a new name to a lot of you, Chappelle, a new name to a lot of you, but soon, I think, a household name. Um, but soon, I think, a household name. Um, but soon, I think, a household name. Um, [music] we'll see. [music] we'll see. [music] we'll see. >> Has been uh what do we call Dr. C? He is >> Has been uh what do we call Dr. C? He is >> Has been uh what do we call Dr. C? He is a a a >> Dr. C is a freak of nature. >> Dr. C is a freak of nature. >> Dr. C is a freak of nature. >> Okay, there you go. Freak of nature. Dr. >> Okay, there you go. Freak of nature. Dr. >> Okay, there you go. Freak of nature. Dr. C.

C. C. >> Yeah. Most of the time a positive freak >> Yeah. Most of the time a positive freak >> Yeah. Most of the time a positive freak of nature. Most of [laughter] the time, of nature. Most of [laughter] the time, of nature. Most of [laughter] the time, >> but he you hired him back in 2019ish. >> but he you hired him back in 2019ish. >> but he you hired him back in 2019ish. Correct. Yes. Correct. Yes. Correct. Yes. >> Yeah. To be what? A performance coach. >> Yeah. To be what? A performance coach. >> Yeah. To be what? A performance coach. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Yeah. So, Dr. C works with um kind >> Yes. Yeah. So, Dr. C works with um kind >> Yes. Yeah. So, Dr. C works with um kind of top military officials, worked with of top military officials, worked with of top military officials, worked with Olympic athletes. He's currently kind of Olympic athletes. He's currently kind of Olympic athletes. He's currently kind of in many ways one of one of the genius in many ways one of one of the genius in many ways one of one of the genius minds behind the Oklahoma City Thunder. minds behind the Oklahoma City Thunder. minds behind the Oklahoma City Thunder. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Selecting. >> Selecting. >> Selecting. >> Were you there last night? >> Were you there last night? >> Were you there last night? >> Yes. And so I say one of them because >> Yes. And so I say one of them because >> Yes. And so I say one of them because it's a great team of people that have it's a great team of people that have it's a great team of people that have put together what may become put together what may become put together what may become one of the greatest teams of all time or one of the greatest teams of all time or one of the greatest teams of all time or >> only won by 50 points last night. >> only won by 50 points last night. >> only won by 50 points last night. Pointing that out. Pointing that out. Pointing that out. >> And so he's he's the he's one of the >> And so he's he's the he's one of the >> And so he's he's the he's one of the geniuses behind that. And I was blessed geniuses behind that. And I was blessed geniuses behind that. And I was blessed not that he agreed to work with me. I not that he agreed to work with me. I not that he agreed to work with me. I was your first pastor. And so in some was your first pastor. And so in some was your first pastor. And so in some ways I was an experiment in your uh ways I was an experiment in your uh ways I was an experiment in your uh counseling career. counseling career. counseling career. >> You were. You were [laughter] for sure. >> You were. You were [laughter] for sure. >> You were. You were [laughter] for sure. >> So he was helping me and I was also >> So he was helping me and I was also >> So he was helping me and I was also saying but as a pastor you got to know saying but as a pastor you got to know saying but as a pastor you got to know this. [laughter] this. [laughter] this. [laughter] >> So military coach psychologist uh also >> So military coach psychologist uh also >> So military coach psychologist uh also uh Olympic athletes, elite athletes.

uh Olympic athletes, elite athletes. uh Olympic athletes, elite athletes. You've worked with government officials You've worked with government officials You've worked with government officials at the highest level of security. Then at the highest level of security. Then at the highest level of security. Then you took on Craig and then Craig said, you took on Craig and then Craig said, you took on Craig and then Craig said, "Hey, I got someone I think this is "Hey, I got someone I think this is "Hey, I got someone I think this is maybe a year after you started with Dr. maybe a year after you started with Dr. maybe a year after you started with Dr. C. You're like, you should he'll see C. You're like, you should he'll see C. You're like, you should he'll see you. The doctor will see you now. And so you. The doctor will see you now. And so you. The doctor will see you now. And so you've been also my therapist, you've been also my therapist, you've been also my therapist, performance coach for the last 5 years, performance coach for the last 5 years, performance coach for the last 5 years, six years, which I'm so grateful for. six years, which I'm so grateful for. six years, which I'm so grateful for. >> And uh and a you just signed with the >> And uh and a you just signed with the >> And uh and a you just signed with the Oklahoma City Thunder. Oklahoma City Thunder. Oklahoma City Thunder. >> I did. Yeah. For another five years. So >> I did. Yeah. For another five years. So >> I did. Yeah. For another five years. So [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> that's great. So >> that's great. So >> that's great. So >> So really hard to put a bio together for >> So really hard to put a bio together for >> So really hard to put a bio together for a career like that, but this is where a career like that, but this is where a career like that, but this is where we're at. So, thank you both for making we're at. So, thank you both for making we're at. So, thank you both for making the time to and for, you know, the whole the time to and for, you know, the whole the time to and for, you know, the whole life church crew and everything. life church crew and everything. life church crew and everything. >> Um, Craig, you've led one of the largest >> Um, Craig, you've led one of the largest >> Um, Craig, you've led one of the largest churches, well, the largest church in churches, well, the largest church in churches, well, the largest church in America now for 30 years. And, um, America now for 30 years. And, um, America now for 30 years. And, um, you know, you can sit here on the you know, you can sit here on the you know, you can sit here on the outside looking in and go, everything outside looking in and go, everything outside looking in and go, everything must be awesome at Life Church. And in must be awesome at Life Church. And in must be awesome at Life Church. And in many ways, it is. I mean, touring the many ways, it is. I mean, touring the many ways, it is. I mean, touring the facilities, seeing the production here, facilities, seeing the production here, facilities, seeing the production here, it's pretty amazing. We walk through the it's pretty amazing. We walk through the it's pretty amazing. We walk through the auditorium, it's beautiful. Um, but on auditorium, it's beautiful. Um, but on auditorium, it's beautiful. Um, but on the inside it doesn't always feel that the inside it doesn't always feel that the inside it doesn't always feel that way.

way. way. >> You hit an inflection point maybe six, >> You hit an inflection point maybe six, >> You hit an inflection point maybe six, seven years ago in 2019. What happened? seven years ago in 2019. What happened? seven years ago in 2019. What happened? >> Well, in in 30 years of leading an >> Well, in in 30 years of leading an >> Well, in in 30 years of leading an organization, it's hard to imagine the organization, it's hard to imagine the organization, it's hard to imagine the variety of things that you will see. You variety of things that you will see. You variety of things that you will see. You you'll see almost everything. And the you'll see almost everything. And the you'll see almost everything. And the one thing I had not seen was what I one thing I had not seen was what I one thing I had not seen was what I would, you know, call kind of like a would, you know, call kind of like a would, you know, call kind of like a personal uh I had never hit a wall personal uh I had never hit a wall personal uh I had never hit a wall before. And I and and was fairly before. And I and and was fairly before. And I and and was fairly thankful and maybe maybe a blind spot thankful and maybe maybe a blind spot thankful and maybe maybe a blind spot was for me I kind of thought I would not was for me I kind of thought I would not was for me I kind of thought I would not which was which was which was >> I'm invincible not going to happen >> I'm invincible not going to happen >> I'm invincible not going to happen >> a little bit and and with reason meaning >> a little bit and and with reason meaning >> a little bit and and with reason meaning I'd set up systems and had the right I'd set up systems and had the right I'd set up systems and had the right people around me and so I had better people around me and so I had better people around me and so I had better odds of not doing it but I had a few odds of not doing it but I had a few odds of not doing it but I had a few blind spots that over time um created a blind spots that over time um created a blind spots that over time um created a cumulative negative effect and then one cumulative negative effect and then one cumulative negative effect and then one day I just woke up and and or say one day I just woke up and and or say one day I just woke up and and or say one day over a period of time I thought this day over a period of time I thought this day over a period of time I thought this is getting harder, this is getting more is getting harder, this is getting more is getting harder, this is getting more difficult, this is getting more difficult, this is getting more difficult, this is getting more difficult, this is getting more difficult, this is getting more difficult, this is getting more difficult and I thought I can muscle difficult and I thought I can muscle difficult and I thought I can muscle through it, muscle through it, muscle through it, muscle through it, muscle through it, muscle through it, muscle through it, but I just continued to take through it, but I just continued to take through it, but I just continued to take on more and more and eventually the only on more and more and eventually the only on more and more and eventually the only way to say it is it just became too way to say it is it just became too way to say it is it just became too much.

much. much. >> Yeah. And you know, I think we would all >> Yeah. And you know, I think we would all >> Yeah. And you know, I think we would all say or at least I would say as someone say or at least I would say as someone say or at least I would say as someone who's followed you for over 20 years, 25 who's followed you for over 20 years, 25 who's followed you for over 20 years, 25 years, if anybody can power through years, if anybody can power through years, if anybody can power through this, Craig will power through this. this, Craig will power through this. this, Craig will power through this. >> What was building up? What was >> What was building up? What was >> What was building up? What was accumulating? What were the things? accumulating? What were the things? accumulating? What were the things? >> I I it it's hard to say. What's >> I I it it's hard to say. What's >> I I it it's hard to say. What's interesting is I almost feel like that interesting is I almost feel like that interesting is I almost feel like that was a different person. Like when I talk was a different person. Like when I talk was a different person. Like when I talk to Dr. Chappelle now, I almost want to to Dr. Chappelle now, I almost want to to Dr. Chappelle now, I almost want to apologize for the person that he met apologize for the person that he met apologize for the person that he met because at the time it just I lit I did because at the time it just I lit I did because at the time it just I lit I did think I could power through anything and think I could power through anything and think I could power through anything and and would and then one day it's almost and would and then one day it's almost and would and then one day it's almost like whatever power I had humanly like whatever power I had humanly like whatever power I had humanly speaking just was not enough. And so it speaking just was not enough. And so it speaking just was not enough. And so it was, you know, a little more content, a was, you know, a little more content, a was, you know, a little more content, a little few more campuses, a few more little few more campuses, a few more little few more campuses, a few more events, another book, another this events, another book, another this events, another book, another this travel more. Um, and I was able to keep travel more. Um, and I was able to keep travel more. Um, and I was able to keep the big things things in place. The the big things things in place. The the big things things in place. The marriage was strong spiritually. I marriage was strong spiritually. I marriage was strong spiritually. I continued to walk faithfully. The I was continued to walk faithfully. The I was continued to walk faithfully. The I was still performing uh generally well at still performing uh generally well at still performing uh generally well at church. My body and mind and soul was church. My body and mind and soul was church. My body and mind and soul was paying a price for it. and I didn't paying a price for it. and I didn't paying a price for it. and I didn't realize um how significant that was.

realize um how significant that was. realize um how significant that was. Then what happened is I started trying Then what happened is I started trying Then what happened is I started trying to ask for help but didn't really have to ask for help but didn't really have to ask for help but didn't really have the language and I was expecting someone the language and I was expecting someone the language and I was expecting someone to come and help me and I didn't realize to come and help me and I didn't realize to come and help me and I didn't realize that no one could but me. And so I kept that no one could but me. And so I kept that no one could but me. And so I kept thinking well someone will hear this thinking well someone will hear this thinking well someone will hear this kind of cry like hey I'm really tired kind of cry like hey I'm really tired kind of cry like hey I'm really tired but I I didn't I didn't didn't have the but I I didn't I didn't didn't have the but I I didn't I didn't didn't have the language to say I'm in real trouble language to say I'm in real trouble language to say I'm in real trouble physically it's too much and and I physically it's too much and and I physically it's too much and and I didn't know how to ask for help and didn't know how to ask for help and didn't know how to ask for help and didn't know how to receive help. And so didn't know how to receive help. And so didn't know how to receive help. And so by talking to Dr. C, it gave me the by talking to Dr. C, it gave me the by talking to Dr. C, it gave me the language and some tools to recognize language and some tools to recognize language and some tools to recognize what had got me there and what I needed what had got me there and what I needed what had got me there and what I needed to change to get out. to change to get out. to change to get out. Before we get to Dr. C, cuz you give him Before we get to Dr. C, cuz you give him Before we get to Dr. C, cuz you give him an interesting diagnosis, an interesting diagnosis, an interesting diagnosis, emotionally, what was going on at that emotionally, what was going on at that emotionally, what was going on at that time? Like what what on the inner life time? Like what what on the inner life time? Like what what on the inner life that you had, what did it feel like? that you had, what did it feel like? that you had, what did it feel like? >> Not much at first. Like at first it was >> Not much at first. Like at first it was >> Not much at first. Like at first it was just, you know, um it was more confusion just, you know, um it was more confusion just, you know, um it was more confusion like why am I not doing well? Like like like why am I not doing well? Like like like why am I not doing well? Like like I'm not used to not doing well. And then I'm not used to not doing well. And then I'm not used to not doing well. And then it became a little bit of panic of going it became a little bit of panic of going it became a little bit of panic of going uhoh, can I keep this up?

uhoh, can I keep this up? uhoh, can I keep this up? >> Like do I have the ability to keep this >> Like do I have the ability to keep this >> Like do I have the ability to keep this up? up? up? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I I found myself a couple things >> And I I found myself a couple things >> And I I found myself a couple things were helpful is I do the five-year were helpful is I do the five-year were helpful is I do the five-year journal and there's nothing magic about journal and there's nothing magic about journal and there's nothing magic about it. But what's really helpful is you it. But what's really helpful is you it. But what's really helpful is you start to see patterns like oh this time start to see patterns like oh this time start to see patterns like oh this time last year I was going through the same last year I was going through the same last year I was going through the same thing and this time three years ago I thing and this time three years ago I thing and this time three years ago I was going through the same thing. So I was going through the same thing. So I was going through the same thing. So I started seeing patterns in my annual started seeing patterns in my annual started seeing patterns in my annual rhythm like oh this is a time that this rhythm like oh this is a time that this rhythm like oh this is a time that this is the third year in a row where I'm is the third year in a row where I'm is the third year in a row where I'm struggling here. And so I was able to struggling here. And so I was able to struggling here. And so I was able to ask like why and what do I need to do ask like why and what do I need to do ask like why and what do I need to do different here? And so I could look at different here? And so I could look at different here? And so I could look at it objectively. But the part that it objectively. But the part that it objectively. But the part that objectively wasn't working was was objectively wasn't working was was objectively wasn't working was was thinking well I've always figured it out thinking well I've always figured it out thinking well I've always figured it out before and now I can't figure it out on before and now I can't figure it out on before and now I can't figure it out on my own. And that scared me a little bit. my own. And that scared me a little bit. my own. And that scared me a little bit. >> I didn't know I I I I asked for help to >> I didn't know I I I I asked for help to >> I didn't know I I I I asked for help to create a system around me that works, create a system around me that works, create a system around me that works, but when the demand was too much for the but when the demand was too much for the but when the demand was too much for the system, I didn't know how to ask for system, I didn't know how to ask for system, I didn't know how to ask for help beyond that. help beyond that. help beyond that. >> Yeah. I I guess one more question, >> Yeah. I I guess one more question, >> Yeah. I I guess one more question, Craig, and feel free to take a pass, but Craig, and feel free to take a pass, but Craig, and feel free to take a pass, but like, like, like, >> you know, was that sadness? Was it like, >> you know, was that sadness? Was it like, >> you know, was that sadness? Was it like, you know, you think about the wheel of you know, you think about the wheel of you know, you think about the wheel of emotions? I don't know you ever seen emotions? I don't know you ever seen emotions? I don't know you ever seen that thing, but what were the emotions?

that thing, but what were the emotions? that thing, but what were the emotions? What were the emotional signals? You What were the emotional signals? You What were the emotional signals? You said not much, but the well and then said not much, but the well and then said not much, but the well and then eventually the deepest emotion I felt eventually the deepest emotion I felt eventually the deepest emotion I felt was hopelessness and and what I what I was hopelessness and and what I what I was hopelessness and and what I what I felt was here's what happened and and felt was here's what happened and and felt was here's what happened and and it's crazy. it's crazy. it's crazy. >> So I'll have a big Dr. C calls it a work >> So I'll have a big Dr. C calls it a work >> So I'll have a big Dr. C calls it a work sprint. And so I'd do a work sprint and sprint. And so I'd do a work sprint and sprint. And so I'd do a work sprint and then I get to the end of it. I think then I get to the end of it. I think then I get to the end of it. I think okay now I can breathe and then I would okay now I can breathe and then I would okay now I can breathe and then I would look up to see what's coming and there'd look up to see what's coming and there'd look up to see what's coming and there'd be another sprint in front of me and I'd be another sprint in front of me and I'd be another sprint in front of me and I'd be like oh there's another one. And be like oh there's another one. And be like oh there's another one. And there was this cycle of thinking I can there was this cycle of thinking I can there was this cycle of thinking I can survive this and then I'll get a break. survive this and then I'll get a break. survive this and then I'll get a break. Then what would happen is I would go and Then what would happen is I would go and Then what would happen is I would go and take a a vacation or a week off and it take a a vacation or a week off and it take a a vacation or a week off and it wouldn't be enough wouldn't be enough wouldn't be enough >> for whatever. It was I'd feel like, >> for whatever. It was I'd feel like, >> for whatever. It was I'd feel like, well, that didn't work. And there's some well, that didn't work. And there's some well, that didn't work. And there's some reasons it didn't work. One of the reasons it didn't work. One of the reasons it didn't work. One of the reasons was I wasn't doing it right. It reasons was I wasn't doing it right. It reasons was I wasn't doing it right. It wasn't designed in a way that would help wasn't designed in a way that would help wasn't designed in a way that would help refill me. And so I had created patterns refill me. And so I had created patterns refill me. And so I had created patterns that essentially became unsustainable. that essentially became unsustainable. that essentially became unsustainable. And then I was looking forward going, I And then I was looking forward going, I And then I was looking forward going, I may never get out of this. I I'll just may never get out of this. I I'll just may never get out of this. I I'll just work. And I I I began to think in the work. And I I I began to think in the work. And I I I began to think in the deepest, darkest parts, which didn't deepest, darkest parts, which didn't deepest, darkest parts, which didn't last long, but they were real. I last long, but they were real. I last long, but they were real. I thought, "This job will kill me." That's thought, "This job will kill me." That's thought, "This job will kill me." That's what I thought. This eventually this I'm what I thought. This eventually this I'm what I thought. This eventually this I'm just going to die doing it. One day it's just going to die doing it. One day it's just going to die doing it. One day it's going to be too much. I'm going to drop going to be too much. I'm going to drop going to be too much. I'm going to drop dead and they're going to be like, "Uh dead and they're going to be like, "Uh dead and they're going to be like, "Uh oh, he was serious." [laughter] oh, he was serious." [laughter] oh, he was serious." [laughter] >> See, see, I'm dead.

>> See, see, I'm dead. >> See, see, I'm dead. >> Yeah. And that's I just And I know that >> Yeah. And that's I just And I know that >> Yeah. And that's I just And I know that sounds crazy, but I thought it it it has sounds crazy, but I thought it it it has sounds crazy, but I thought it it it has become [clears throat] too much. And become [clears throat] too much. And become [clears throat] too much. And >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, okay. That that is very clarifying. >> So, okay. That that is very clarifying. >> So, okay. That that is very clarifying. There's no break. There's no break. There's no break. >> I was kind of okay with it a little bit, >> I was kind of okay with it a little bit, >> I was kind of okay with it a little bit, too, like that's just what you do. You too, like that's just what you do. You too, like that's just what you do. You die. You know, meaning that's what a die. You know, meaning that's what a die. You know, meaning that's what a good Christian pastor does is you give good Christian pastor does is you give good Christian pastor does is you give it all. And I didn't have I didn't have it all. And I didn't have I didn't have it all. And I didn't have I didn't have the category of permission of things for the category of permission of things for the category of permission of things for me. That felt selfish or wrong to me. me. That felt selfish or wrong to me. me. That felt selfish or wrong to me. >> Yeah. And you're barely just past 50 at >> Yeah. And you're barely just past 50 at >> Yeah. And you're barely just past 50 at this point around your this point around your this point around your >> back then. Yeah. Now, now now I'm well >> back then. Yeah. Now, now now I'm well >> back then. Yeah. Now, now now I'm well past 50. past 50. past 50. >> Well past 50. But no, I mean you look at >> Well past 50. But no, I mean you look at >> Well past 50. But no, I mean you look at it it it >> hopefully another decade, decade and a >> hopefully another decade, decade and a >> hopefully another decade, decade and a half, two decades of life leadership half, two decades of life leadership half, two decades of life leadership strongly ahead of you. strongly ahead of you. strongly ahead of you. >> And the good news is is that in in an >> And the good news is is that in in an >> And the good news is is that in in an entirely different place and so for the entirely different place and so for the entirely different place and so for the person that [clears throat] right now is person that [clears throat] right now is person that [clears throat] right now is in that similar spot of panic, there is in that similar spot of panic, there is in that similar spot of panic, there is help and hope on the other side, but help and hope on the other side, but help and hope on the other side, but it's not going to come without generally it's not going to come without generally it's not going to come without generally without some work or an ask. without some work or an ask. without some work or an ask. >> So now Dr. C, the diagnosis, >> So now Dr. C, the diagnosis, >> So now Dr. C, the diagnosis, >> well, I would have to say that there was >> well, I would have to say that there was >> well, I would have to say that there was really no clinical diagnosis. um you really no clinical diagnosis. um you really no clinical diagnosis. um you could look at and say, "Okay, was there could look at and say, "Okay, was there could look at and say, "Okay, was there a depression or anxiety or some kind of a depression or anxiety or some kind of a depression or anxiety or some kind of like adjustment related issue?" And when like adjustment related issue?" And when like adjustment related issue?" And when you look at what the diagnostic criteria you look at what the diagnostic criteria you look at what the diagnostic criteria is and as Craig was describing to me is and as Craig was describing to me is and as Craig was describing to me what he was doing, I'm sitting there what he was doing, I'm sitting there what he was doing, I'm sitting there going, "Wo, first of all, what you're going, "Wo, first of all, what you're going, "Wo, first of all, what you're doing is extraordinary. You have a lot doing is extraordinary. You have a lot doing is extraordinary. You have a lot of things that you're doing. There's a of things that you're doing. There's a of things that you're doing. There's a tremendous amount of pressure that tremendous amount of pressure that tremendous amount of pressure that you're faced with. You have expectations you're faced with. You have expectations you're faced with. You have expectations that are levied on you that are not that are levied on you that are not that are levied on you that are not levied on the ordinary individual. And levied on the ordinary individual. And levied on the ordinary individual. And when I take a look at what it is that

when I take a look at what it is that when I take a look at what it is that you're doing, which is on the outside you're doing, which is on the outside you're doing, which is on the outside extremely successful, you're doing all extremely successful, you're doing all extremely successful, you're doing all the things that you need to do. In fact, the things that you need to do. In fact, the things that you need to do. In fact, you're a model for many other people as you're a model for many other people as you're a model for many other people as they're watching you. And yet somehow they're watching you. And yet somehow they're watching you. And yet somehow someway the very thing that made you someway the very thing that made you someway the very thing that made you successful, which was your drive, your successful, which was your drive, your successful, which was your drive, your energy, how much you were taking on all energy, how much you were taking on all energy, how much you were taking on all of a sudden now became a vulnerability. of a sudden now became a vulnerability. of a sudden now became a vulnerability. And so I'm looking, I'm going, this, And so I'm looking, I'm going, this, And so I'm looking, I'm going, this, first of all, this is more of a an first of all, this is more of a an first of all, this is more of a an emotional burnout kind of stage. Um, emotional burnout kind of stage. Um, emotional burnout kind of stage. Um, it's not necessarily a clinical it's not necessarily a clinical it's not necessarily a clinical diagnosis, but if you keep going the way diagnosis, but if you keep going the way diagnosis, but if you keep going the way you are, it will turn into a clinical you are, it will turn into a clinical you are, it will turn into a clinical diagnosis. Now, what made Craig's diagnosis. Now, what made Craig's diagnosis. Now, what made Craig's situation even more complex is when you situation even more complex is when you situation even more complex is when you see the guy, he looks fit. He's one of see the guy, he looks fit. He's one of see the guy, he looks fit. He's one of the most fit guy I've seen. I mean, for the most fit guy I've seen. I mean, for the most fit guy I've seen. I mean, for his age, he's extraordinarily fit. his age, he's extraordinarily fit. his age, he's extraordinarily fit. >> Um, he does all the right things in >> Um, he does all the right things in >> Um, he does all the right things in terms of diet and exercise, strength and terms of diet and exercise, strength and terms of diet and exercise, strength and conditioning. He's got great social conditioning. He's got great social conditioning. He's got great social relationships. Spiritual um uh life was relationships. Spiritual um uh life was relationships. Spiritual um uh life was just off the charts successful. And yet just off the charts successful. And yet just off the charts successful. And yet here he was taking on more and more. And here he was taking on more and more. And here he was taking on more and more. And I have a couple sayings. One is who you I have a couple sayings. One is who you I have a couple sayings. One is who you are today should be different than who are today should be different than who are today should be different than who you were a year ago.

you were a year ago. you were a year ago. >> And who you are a year from now should >> And who you are a year from now should >> And who you are a year from now should be different than who you are today. And be different than who you are today. And be different than who you are today. And what was happening is he kept doing the what was happening is he kept doing the what was happening is he kept doing the same thing over and over thinking that same thing over and over thinking that same thing over and over thinking that somehow it will change or perhaps I can somehow it will change or perhaps I can somehow it will change or perhaps I can white knuckle it and things will get white knuckle it and things will get white knuckle it and things will get better. And it was those patterns that better. And it was those patterns that better. And it was those patterns that he started to recognize he was going, he started to recognize he was going, he started to recognize he was going, "Wo, this is not working for me." And "Wo, this is not working for me." And "Wo, this is not working for me." And and the crash is like where he could and the crash is like where he could and the crash is like where he could perform at such a high level and then perform at such a high level and then perform at such a high level and then behind the scenes crash and be in bed behind the scenes crash and be in bed behind the scenes crash and be in bed for a couple of days not being able to for a couple of days not being able to for a couple of days not being able to get out because he's so exhausted. And get out because he's so exhausted. And get out because he's so exhausted. And then when he gets enough energy to get then when he gets enough energy to get then when he gets enough energy to get out of bed, look at it and go, "Whoa, out of bed, look at it and go, "Whoa, out of bed, look at it and go, "Whoa, that horizon, that's not slowing down. I that horizon, that's not slowing down. I that horizon, that's not slowing down. I have to sprint again. How am I going to have to sprint again. How am I going to have to sprint again. How am I going to keep up with this?" keep up with this?" keep up with this?" >> So, >> So, >> So, >> did it hit that way? A couple of days in >> did it hit that way? A couple of days in >> did it hit that way? A couple of days in bed or rest? bed or rest? bed or rest? >> Not Not really in bed. I don't think I >> Not Not really in bed. I don't think I >> Not Not really in bed. I don't think I ever did that. But what I did have was a ever did that. But what I did have was a ever did that. But what I did have was a weekend with friends that I was fully weekend with friends that I was fully weekend with friends that I was fully present but emotionally barely present but emotionally barely present but emotionally barely remembered. That was when it was we look remembered. That was when it was we look remembered. That was when it was we look back and go, "So, I did that, but I back and go, "So, I did that, but I back and go, "So, I did that, but I don't really remember it." And so I don't really remember it." And so I don't really remember it." And so I think it for me I was I was more still think it for me I was I was more still think it for me I was I was more still performing but not fully eng and performing but not fully eng and performing but not fully eng and actually getting results but not able to actually getting results but not able to actually getting results but not able to be I couldn't remember it. So that was be I couldn't remember it. So that was be I couldn't remember it. So that was it was like it wasn't like I stayed in it was like it wasn't like I stayed in it was like it wasn't like I stayed in bed depressed but it was that was um bed depressed but it was that was um bed depressed but it was that was um emotionally and mentally it just the emotionally and mentally it just the emotionally and mentally it just the wasn't a hitting on all cylinders and it wasn't a hitting on all cylinders and it wasn't a hitting on all cylinders and it wasn't a it wasn't a long time but it wasn't a it wasn't a long time but it wasn't a it wasn't a long time but it was enough to go this is not normal. I was enough to go this is not normal. I was enough to go this is not normal. I need to do something different. Let me need to do something different. Let me need to do something different. Let me also throw in that what's interesting is also throw in that what's interesting is also throw in that what's interesting is even when you had a had that crash when even when you had a had that crash when even when you had a had that crash when you present yourself in public, you

you present yourself in public, you you present yourself in public, you still look great. still look great. still look great. >> And so it was very difficult. So you're >> And so it was very difficult. So you're >> And so it was very difficult. So you're you're kind of waiting for people to you're kind of waiting for people to you're kind of waiting for people to say, "Hey, maybe I could do something to say, "Hey, maybe I could do something to say, "Hey, maybe I could do something to help slow his pace down or or he he help slow his pace down or or he he help slow his pace down or or he he looks like he might need some help." And looks like he might need some help." And looks like he might need some help." And you could look out and say, "Look, I'm you could look out and say, "Look, I'm you could look out and say, "Look, I'm really struggling here. I'm doing so really struggling here. I'm doing so really struggling here. I'm doing so well." But they would look at you and well." But they would look at you and well." But they would look at you and go, "Oh my goodness, you look great. You go, "Oh my goodness, you look great. You go, "Oh my goodness, you look great. You [laughter] just you just can't preach a [laughter] just you just can't preach a [laughter] just you just can't preach a decent sermon." And yeah, and so I would decent sermon." And yeah, and so I would decent sermon." And yeah, and so I would say that to someone who's listening, say that to someone who's listening, say that to someone who's listening, there are others out there, high there are others out there, high there are others out there, high performers, because you probably performers, because you probably performers, because you probably attract, you know, the highest quality attract, you know, the highest quality attract, you know, the highest quality of leaders. And there are those that you of leaders. And there are those that you of leaders. And there are those that you do know how to perform even when you're do know how to perform even when you're do know how to perform even when you're hurting. And that's that's a strength hurting. And that's that's a strength hurting. And that's that's a strength until it's not. until it's not. until it's not. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Because because other people may not >> Because because other people may not >> Because because other people may not know. And even and and even when you know. And even and and even when you know. And even and and even when you say, uh, hey, I kind of need help. If say, uh, hey, I kind of need help. If say, uh, hey, I kind of need help. If your if your performance is still good, your if your performance is still good, your if your performance is still good, they may not believe you. they may not believe you. they may not believe you. >> Right. And I'm sure your sermons were >> Right. And I'm sure your sermons were >> Right. And I'm sure your sermons were still textbook. still textbook. still textbook. >> I I think I was >> I I think I was >> I I think I was >> Do you think your preaching was taking a >> Do you think your preaching was taking a >> Do you think your preaching was taking a hit? Uh, I don't know. It's hard to hit? Uh, I don't know. It's hard to hit? Uh, I don't know. It's hard to judge your own preaching, but I I think judge your own preaching, but I I think judge your own preaching, but I I think that um sometimes you preach better from that um sometimes you preach better from that um sometimes you preach better from an empty place, but that doesn't mean an empty place, but that doesn't mean an empty place, but that doesn't mean the place is doesn't need to be full.

the place is doesn't need to be full. the place is doesn't need to be full. So, I don't think that impacted my So, I don't think that impacted my So, I don't think that impacted my preaching negatively as much as it preaching negatively as much as it preaching negatively as much as it impacted me negatively. impacted me negatively. impacted me negatively. >> So, go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say, >> So, go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say, >> So, go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say, well, that was actually one of the well, that was actually one of the well, that was actually one of the things I was doing is order to for me to things I was doing is order to for me to things I was doing is order to for me to get a better idea in terms of what it's get a better idea in terms of what it's get a better idea in terms of what it's like to work with pastors. I was like to work with pastors. I was like to work with pastors. I was watching many of his videos to go, okay, watching many of his videos to go, okay, watching many of his videos to go, okay, is his performance negatively impacted? is his performance negatively impacted? is his performance negatively impacted? Because that's one of the most important Because that's one of the most important Because that's one of the most important diagnostic criteria for a diagnosis is, diagnostic criteria for a diagnosis is, diagnostic criteria for a diagnosis is, is it negatively impacting your is it negatively impacting your is it negatively impacting your occupational performance? And as he's as occupational performance? And as he's as occupational performance? And as he's as Craig, as you were describing to me some Craig, as you were describing to me some Craig, as you were describing to me some of the challenges you were going of the challenges you were going of the challenges you were going through, I would watch you on stage and through, I would watch you on stage and through, I would watch you on stage and I'm going, "Oh my gosh, this guy is I'm going, "Oh my gosh, this guy is I'm going, "Oh my gosh, this guy is amazing. He's doing exceptionally well." amazing. He's doing exceptionally well." amazing. He's doing exceptionally well." which only made it more difficult for which only made it more difficult for which only made it more difficult for people to recognize that you were people to recognize that you were people to recognize that you were hurting on the inside. hurting on the inside. hurting on the inside. >> Well, same with marriage. I was still >> Well, same with marriage. I was still >> Well, same with marriage. I was still very engaged with Amy in marriage, still very engaged with Amy in marriage, still very engaged with Amy in marriage, still with the kids, and so I was doing with the kids, and so I was doing with the kids, and so I was doing everything external that was important, everything external that was important, everything external that was important, but I was not I didn't didn't know how but I was not I didn't didn't know how but I was not I didn't didn't know how to really care for myself to really care for myself to really care for myself >> and didn't think that's what a good >> and didn't think that's what a good >> and didn't think that's what a good Christian pastor would do. Kind of. It's Christian pastor would do. Kind of. It's Christian pastor would do. Kind of. 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now for a quote at one accord. now for a quote at one accord. Carry where they're offering our Carry where they're offering our Carry where they're offering our listeners a free trial with 3 hours of listeners a free trial with 3 hours of listeners a free trial with 3 hours of translation credit. Join over 200 translation credit. Join over 200 translation credit. Join over 200 churches currently using one accord to churches currently using one accord to churches currently using one accord to help translate their services at one help translate their services at one help translate their services at one accord. accord. accord. That's o neacord.ai/carry. Is that like a lifelong thing that Is that like a lifelong thing that you've been really good at the you've been really good at the you've been really good at the responsibilities that come with life? responsibilities that come with life? responsibilities that come with life? But the oldest I'm the oldest um adult But the oldest I'm the oldest um adult But the oldest I'm the oldest um adult child of an alcoholic and one of the child of an alcoholic and one of the child of an alcoholic and one of the things that someone that raised in that things that someone that raised in that things that someone that raised in that type of home does typically take becomes type of home does typically take becomes type of home does typically take becomes overly responsible often overly loyal um overly responsible often overly loyal um overly responsible often overly loyal um sometimes a people pleaser and tries to sometimes a people pleaser and tries to sometimes a people pleaser and tries to keep the peace and that kind of things keep the peace and that kind of things keep the peace and that kind of things and those things. So, uh, emotionally and those things. So, uh, emotionally and those things. So, uh, emotionally and relationally, that's where I am now and relationally, that's where I am now and relationally, that's where I am now as a leader. There's kind of like a as a leader. There's kind of like a as a leader. There's kind of like a different category where I get in a different category where I get in a different category where I get in a different headsp space, which is you different headsp space, which is you different headsp space, which is you have to do what's right. And then I go have to do what's right. And then I go have to do what's right. And then I go home and deal with relational issues home and deal with relational issues home and deal with relational issues with family and I become more of a with family and I become more of a with family and I become more of a pleaser. And there's almost like two pleaser. And there's almost like two pleaser. And there's almost like two different um mind space or head spaces different um mind space or head spaces different um mind space or head spaces for me. So, I'd go home and be there for for me. So, I'd go home and be there for for me. So, I'd go home and be there for the for Amy, be there for the kids, and the for Amy, be there for the kids, and the for Amy, be there for the kids, and then be there for the grandkids. and then be there for the grandkids. and then be there for the grandkids. and didn't know how to say, "Can someone didn't know how to say, "Can someone didn't know how to say, "Can someone help me um fill back up to a place where help me um fill back up to a place where help me um fill back up to a place where I can do this sustainably?"

I can do this sustainably?" I can do this sustainably?" >> And you have friends. We were here a >> And you have friends. We were here a >> And you have friends. We were here a couple weeks ago for an event and one of couple weeks ago for an event and one of couple weeks ago for an event and one of the guys I met goes back to tennis with the guys I met goes back to tennis with the guys I met goes back to tennis with you in high school. you in high school. you in high school. >> Um >> Um >> Um but sometimes it can be really hard. And but sometimes it can be really hard. And but sometimes it can be really hard. And you're well networked with with friends you're well networked with with friends you're well networked with with friends as well. And you are a great friend like as well. And you are a great friend like as well. And you are a great friend like you've been a great friend to me. you've been a great friend to me. you've been a great friend to me. >> Sometimes friends are not enough. Is >> Sometimes friends are not enough. Is >> Sometimes friends are not enough. Is that true or am I missing something or that true or am I missing something or that true or am I missing something or it's like I didn't have that layer to it's like I didn't have that layer to it's like I didn't have that layer to those friendships? those friendships? those friendships? >> I think I think the friends are a big >> I think I think the friends are a big >> I think I think the friends are a big big part of it. So what Dr. Se did is he big part of it. So what Dr. Se did is he big part of it. So what Dr. Se did is he called them wingmen. And what what's called them wingmen. And what what's called them wingmen. And what what's interesting is is so I actually have interesting is is so I actually have interesting is is so I actually have very very good friends and and feel like very very good friends and and feel like very very good friends and and feel like I've got everything necessary to that I've got everything necessary to that I've got everything necessary to that all the elements in place to have a all the elements in place to have a all the elements in place to have a God-honoring, productive life and God-honoring, productive life and God-honoring, productive life and ministry. the what what I didn't have ministry. the what what I didn't have ministry. the what what I didn't have was the language to empower them to help was the language to empower them to help was the language to empower them to help me. me. me. >> And so Dr. C would meet with my >> And so Dr. C would meet with my >> And so Dr. C would meet with my assistant with um the other leaders assistant with um the other leaders assistant with um the other leaders here, with Amy, with um my friends and here, with Amy, with um my friends and here, with Amy, with um my friends and say basically what you see that looks say basically what you see that looks say basically what you see that looks like a strength is a strength until it like a strength is a strength until it like a strength is a strength until it works against Greg and here's how you works against Greg and here's how you works against Greg and here's how you can come alongside of and help him. We can come alongside of and help him. We can come alongside of and help him. We need to do these three things. And so he need to do these three things. And so he need to do these three things. And so he gave them language, us language, me gave them language, us language, me gave them language, us language, me language. He helped Amy to see that um language. He helped Amy to see that um language. He helped Amy to see that um there are times when yes, you're always there are times when yes, you're always there are times when yes, you're always available to the kids, but um at this available to the kids, but um at this available to the kids, but um at this point you might need to create a little point you might need to create a little point you might need to create a little boundary to to create space for Craig boundary to to create space for Craig boundary to to create space for Craig without kids because that's what he without kids because that's what he without kids because that's what he needs. And um so it became a just more needs. And um so it became a just more needs. And um so it became a just more of a team effort that didn't just help

of a team effort that didn't just help of a team effort that didn't just help me, but helped them, helped us. And me, but helped them, helped us. And me, but helped them, helped us. And that's one of the things I appreciated that's one of the things I appreciated that's one of the things I appreciated was it wasn't Dr. just counseling me, was it wasn't Dr. just counseling me, was it wasn't Dr. just counseling me, but he kind of counseledled probably the but he kind of counseledled probably the but he kind of counseledled probably the eight or nine people closest to me to eight or nine people closest to me to eight or nine people closest to me to create a language that would help us create a language that would help us create a language that would help us move forward and strategy that that's move forward and strategy that that's move forward and strategy that that's been generally effective until look, you been generally effective until look, you been generally effective until look, you know, 18 months into it, I I told I know, 18 months into it, I I told I know, 18 months into it, I I told I think I'm doing pretty good. Am I doing think I'm doing pretty good. Am I doing think I'm doing pretty good. Am I doing good? Is it okay? [laughter] good? Is it okay? [laughter] good? Is it okay? [laughter] Am I allowed to do good? like and and Am I allowed to do good? like and and Am I allowed to do good? like and and then I looked back and like go who was then I looked back and like go who was then I looked back and like go who was that guy and how did I how did I even that guy and how did I how did I even that guy and how did I how did I even get there you know? Yeah get there you know? Yeah get there you know? Yeah >> the diagnosis >> the diagnosis >> the diagnosis >> okay so two questions Dr. See, and I >> okay so two questions Dr. See, and I >> okay so two questions Dr. See, and I think Craig would have found a virtuous think Craig would have found a virtuous think Craig would have found a virtuous way to get through whatever wall he hit. way to get through whatever wall he hit. way to get through whatever wall he hit. You were hitting a wall, but if you kept You were hitting a wall, but if you kept You were hitting a wall, but if you kept going and it was unsustainable and going and it was unsustainable and going and it was unsustainable and almost killed you, there were further almost killed you, there were further almost killed you, there were further consequences down the road. And I think consequences down the road. And I think consequences down the road. And I think I know you well enough to know you have I know you well enough to know you have I know you well enough to know you have enough integrity, you wouldn't have enough integrity, you wouldn't have enough integrity, you wouldn't have taken the usual way out through an taken the usual way out through an taken the usual way out through an affair, that kind of thing. But affair, that kind of thing. But affair, that kind of thing. But typically what happens for people typically what happens for people typically what happens for people watching, listening right now, who are watching, listening right now, who are watching, listening right now, who are like, "Ooh, I resonate with this." If like, "Ooh, I resonate with this." If like, "Ooh, I resonate with this." If you don't get help now, typically what you don't get help now, typically what you don't get help now, typically what happens?

happens? happens? >> Oh, wow. If if you wait, the situation >> Oh, wow. If if you wait, the situation >> Oh, wow. If if you wait, the situation doesn't magically resolve itself. doesn't magically resolve itself. doesn't magically resolve itself. [laughter] A lot of people think if I [laughter] A lot of people think if I [laughter] A lot of people think if I can just wait it out, things will get can just wait it out, things will get can just wait it out, things will get better magically. But that's not how better magically. But that's not how better magically. But that's not how things happen. And often times people things happen. And often times people things happen. And often times people will think, well, I'll just wait for the will think, well, I'll just wait for the will think, well, I'll just wait for the environment around me or people around environment around me or people around environment around me or people around me to change. And you can't do that me to change. And you can't do that me to change. And you can't do that either because typically what happens is either because typically what happens is either because typically what happens is you'll have a slow fade and it'll lead you'll have a slow fade and it'll lead you'll have a slow fade and it'll lead into some kind kind of emotional or into some kind kind of emotional or into some kind kind of emotional or behavioral issue. In my experiences now behavioral issue. In my experiences now behavioral issue. In my experiences now of working with pastors, I I found that of working with pastors, I I found that of working with pastors, I I found that there are seven particular issues that there are seven particular issues that there are seven particular issues that they often times struggle with when they they often times struggle with when they they often times struggle with when they don't get the help. One is bottle or don't get the help. One is bottle or don't get the help. One is bottle or substances. So either go to alcohol or substances. So either go to alcohol or substances. So either go to alcohol or misuse of even over-the-counter misuse of even over-the-counter misuse of even over-the-counter prescription drugs. Um second is wallet. prescription drugs. Um second is wallet. prescription drugs. Um second is wallet. Uh sometimes people cope with spending Uh sometimes people cope with spending Uh sometimes people cope with spending or or mismanagement of money or they or or mismanagement of money or they or or mismanagement of money or they start to get so focused in on money that start to get so focused in on money that start to get so focused in on money that that becomes their their go-to. Uh that becomes their their go-to. Uh that becomes their their go-to. Uh zipper, which is sexual misconduct. Um zipper, which is sexual misconduct. Um zipper, which is sexual misconduct. Um and interestingly enough, even when and interestingly enough, even when and interestingly enough, even when working with professional athletes, the working with professional athletes, the working with professional athletes, the highest military generals that are in highest military generals that are in highest military generals that are in the world, it doesn't matter how much the world, it doesn't matter how much the world, it doesn't matter how much success that you have in that realm, the success that you have in that realm, the success that you have in that realm, the the attention and the validation that the attention and the validation that the attention and the validation that you can get from the opposite sex is you can get from the opposite sex is you can get from the opposite sex is very powerful. and where you're feeling very powerful. and where you're feeling very powerful. and where you're feeling low or insecure, you'll often times move low or insecure, you'll often times move low or insecure, you'll often times move in that direction. The next one is in that direction. The next one is in that direction. The next one is temperament, where you let your emotions temperament, where you let your emotions temperament, where you let your emotions get the best of you. And sometimes it's get the best of you. And sometimes it's get the best of you. And sometimes it's an isolated incident or an established an isolated incident or an established an isolated incident or an established pattern of behavior where you let pattern of behavior where you let pattern of behavior where you let anxiety or depression or um anger get

anxiety or depression or um anger get anxiety or depression or um anger get the best. the best. the best. >> That's where toxic culture comes in. >> That's where toxic culture comes in. >> That's where toxic culture comes in. >> Exactly. And then there's like um >> Exactly. And then there's like um >> Exactly. And then there's like um wolves. And the wolves are people who wolves. And the wolves are people who wolves. And the wolves are people who are a part of your life who are often are a part of your life who are often are a part of your life who are often times in your inner circle, but they times in your inner circle, but they times in your inner circle, but they look like lambs, but they're taking look like lambs, but they're taking look like lambs, but they're taking advantage of you. advantage of you. advantage of you. >> And when you are so distraught or you >> And when you are so distraught or you >> And when you are so distraught or you don't have the energy to set up those don't have the energy to set up those don't have the energy to set up those appropriate boundaries, those wolves appropriate boundaries, those wolves appropriate boundaries, those wolves come in and then you have jealousy or or come in and then you have jealousy or or come in and then you have jealousy or or ego or pride or you start to try and ego or pride or you start to try and ego or pride or you start to try and control things that you have no control control things that you have no control control things that you have no control over. And as a result, people slowly over. And as a result, people slowly over. And as a result, people slowly fade in that. Now, something that's fade in that. Now, something that's fade in that. Now, something that's important and I wanted to to share here important and I wanted to to share here important and I wanted to to share here and that is the wingman concept. Nobody and that is the wingman concept. Nobody and that is the wingman concept. Nobody be ever becomes the best version of be ever becomes the best version of be ever becomes the best version of themselves by themselves. And a lot of themselves by themselves. And a lot of themselves by themselves. And a lot of the things that I do in psychology are the things that I do in psychology are the things that I do in psychology are very different from what traditional very different from what traditional very different from what traditional psychology is all about. psychology is all about. psychology is all about. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> and what's interesting is I took the the >> and what's interesting is I took the the >> and what's interesting is I took the the same approach that I did with working same approach that I did with working same approach that I did with working with special operational units across with special operational units across with special operational units across the globe with Craig because I saw him the globe with Craig because I saw him the globe with Craig because I saw him in a very similar light. high in a very similar light. high in a very similar light. high performance, high demand, highly performance, high demand, highly performance, high demand, highly visible. [snorts] visible. [snorts] visible. [snorts] >> And so, how do you help those >> And so, how do you help those >> And so, how do you help those individuals not just simply individuals not just simply individuals not just simply survive a normal day with all the survive a normal day with all the survive a normal day with all the pressures, but how do you help them pressures, but how do you help them pressures, but how do you help them thrive? And what's interesting is our thrive? And what's interesting is our thrive? And what's interesting is our definition in the our culture of definition in the our culture of definition in the our culture of thriving is I can show up, do a great thriving is I can show up, do a great thriving is I can show up, do a great job under ordinary conditions. That's job under ordinary conditions. That's job under ordinary conditions. That's not thriving. That's just barely not thriving. That's just barely not thriving. That's just barely surviving. thriving is can you show up, surviving. thriving is can you show up, surviving. thriving is can you show up, do a phenomenal job, and be

do a phenomenal job, and be do a phenomenal job, and be extraordinary under extraordinarily extraordinary under extraordinarily extraordinary under extraordinarily difficult conditions. And Craig was difficult conditions. And Craig was difficult conditions. And Craig was facing extraordinarily difficult facing extraordinarily difficult facing extraordinarily difficult conditions. And so part of meeting with conditions. And so part of meeting with conditions. And so part of meeting with the other one was to help him the other one was to help him the other one was to help him understand, hey, this is where we're understand, hey, this is where we're understand, hey, this is where we're going to go. And you don't have to going to go. And you don't have to going to go. And you don't have to struggle in order to meet with a a struggle in order to meet with a a struggle in order to meet with a a psychologist for mental strength and psychologist for mental strength and psychologist for mental strength and conditioning. conditioning. conditioning. >> But the other piece to this was helping >> But the other piece to this was helping >> But the other piece to this was helping him understand and even define a good him understand and even define a good him understand and even define a good wingman. Now, a good wingman we often wingman. Now, a good wingman we often wingman. Now, a good wingman we often times think is somebody who's really times think is somebody who's really times think is somebody who's really nice [music] and says great things and nice [music] and says great things and nice [music] and says great things and is very supportive. And that's part of is very supportive. And that's part of is very supportive. And that's part of the equation, but you need to have a the equation, but you need to have a the equation, but you need to have a wingman that's willing to punch you in wingman that's willing to punch you in wingman that's willing to punch you in your face. your face. your face. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> A wingman is saying, "Look, you're going >> A wingman is saying, "Look, you're going >> A wingman is saying, "Look, you're going down a path of destruction, and I need down a path of destruction, and I need down a path of destruction, and I need to prevent you from going down that to prevent you from going down that to prevent you from going down that path. And if so, that means I have to path. And if so, that means I have to path. And if so, that means I have to tell you the stuff the the tough things. tell you the stuff the the tough things. tell you the stuff the the tough things. maybe even share with you things that maybe even share with you things that maybe even share with you things that you don't want to hear, but I have to you don't want to hear, but I have to you don't want to hear, but I have to let you know because if I watch you let you know because if I watch you let you know because if I watch you self-destruct and don't say anything self-destruct and don't say anything self-destruct and don't say anything about it, then I'm contributing to the about it, then I'm contributing to the about it, then I'm contributing to the problem. So, good wingmen are problem. So, good wingmen are problem. So, good wingmen are individuals who are not ones that avoid individuals who are not ones that avoid individuals who are not ones that avoid conflict or say nice things, but they're conflict or say nice things, but they're conflict or say nice things, but they're willing to essentially willing to essentially willing to essentially put strong boundaries and be very put strong boundaries and be very put strong boundaries and be very truthful in a very loving way. Now, truthful in a very loving way. Now, truthful in a very loving way. Now, sometimes wingmen don't say it the best sometimes wingmen don't say it the best sometimes wingmen don't say it the best way. Be a little bit offensive, but you way. Be a little bit offensive, but you way. Be a little bit offensive, but you got to have a strong strong wingman. And got to have a strong strong wingman. And got to have a strong strong wingman. And and that's the other thing I want to and that's the other thing I want to and that's the other thing I want to throw out there in the sense that when throw out there in the sense that when throw out there in the sense that when you're a pastor in a position of you're a pastor in a position of you're a pastor in a position of authority, authority, authority, >> you have to make sure that you surround >> you have to make sure that you surround >> you have to make sure that you surround yourself not just with yesmen, but yourself not just with yesmen, but yourself not just with yesmen, but people who are willing to speak truth people who are willing to speak truth people who are willing to speak truth into you and not be intimidated by the

into you and not be intimidated by the into you and not be intimidated by the authority that you have. Um I'll give authority that you have. Um I'll give authority that you have. Um I'll give you an example. Um I was working with a you an example. Um I was working with a you an example. Um I was working with a four-star special operations general and four-star special operations general and four-star special operations general and he needed to have he he would go into he needed to have he he would go into he needed to have he he would go into his um meetings, right? And we're his um meetings, right? And we're his um meetings, right? And we're planning some very strategic operations planning some very strategic operations planning some very strategic operations across the globe, things that are across the globe, things that are across the globe, things that are affecting national security and affecting national security and affecting national security and some very important things and some very important things and some very important things and activities are happening around the activities are happening around the activities are happening around the world, right? And this guy's going into world, right? And this guy's going into world, right? And this guy's going into a room and he'll say an idea and he'll a room and he'll say an idea and he'll a room and he'll say an idea and he'll say, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking." say, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking." say, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking." And everybody around that room will go, And everybody around that room will go, And everybody around that room will go, "Hey, sounds like a great idea, boss." "Hey, sounds like a great idea, boss." "Hey, sounds like a great idea, boss." And I'm sitting in there going, "Wait a And I'm sitting in there going, "Wait a And I'm sitting in there going, "Wait a minute. You could tell this guy that minute. You could tell this guy that minute. You could tell this guy that he's wearing no clothes or you he come he's wearing no clothes or you he come he's wearing no clothes or you he come in completely wearing no clothes and and in completely wearing no clothes and and in completely wearing no clothes and and everybody's going to say everything is everybody's going to say everything is everybody's going to say everything is great or fine." And he looked over me. great or fine." And he looked over me. great or fine." And he looked over me. He says, "Can you find me somebody who's He says, "Can you find me somebody who's He says, "Can you find me somebody who's willing to be a good wingman, who's willing to be a good wingman, who's willing to be a good wingman, who's willing to say no, to set boundaries and willing to say no, to set boundaries and willing to say no, to set boundaries and to challenge me?" to challenge me?" to challenge me?" >> And so I did. I found a a a three-star >> And so I did. I found a a a three-star >> And so I did. I found a a a three-star general. And I says, "Hey, do you think general. And I says, "Hey, do you think general. And I says, "Hey, do you think you could go in and be this guy's you could go in and be this guy's you could go in and be this guy's wingman and tell this guy stand up.

wingman and tell this guy stand up. wingman and tell this guy stand up. >> Stand up. >> Stand up. >> Stand up. >> And when we did that, it changed the >> And when we did that, it changed the >> And when we did that, it changed the culture and it made it better. culture and it made it better. culture and it made it better. >> So on that note, uh I think one of the >> So on that note, uh I think one of the >> So on that note, uh I think one of the things every pastor, church leader, or things every pastor, church leader, or things every pastor, church leader, or even CEOs struggle with is, you know, even CEOs struggle with is, you know, even CEOs struggle with is, you know, and this is particularly difficult for and this is particularly difficult for and this is particularly difficult for you, Craig, you have a lot, you have you, Craig, you have a lot, you have you, Craig, you have a lot, you have over a thousand people working for you, over a thousand people working for you, over a thousand people working for you, with you. with you. with you. um you have your elders, they have some um you have your elders, they have some um you have your elders, they have some power over you, but there's like always power over you, but there's like always power over you, but there's like always a dual dynamic, right? So to find that a dual dynamic, right? So to find that a dual dynamic, right? So to find that wingman and I'm not asking for names, wingman and I'm not asking for names, wingman and I'm not asking for names, but I'm wondering how did you do that? but I'm wondering how did you do that? but I'm wondering how did you do that? Because I have this conversation Because I have this conversation Because I have this conversation >> every month, sometimes every week with a >> every month, sometimes every week with a >> every month, sometimes every week with a pastor about finding someone they know pastor about finding someone they know pastor about finding someone they know in their life. in their life. in their life. >> Probably can't be somebody they work who >> Probably can't be somebody they work who >> Probably can't be somebody they work who works for them because you always have works for them because you always have works for them because you always have the power to hire and fire. How did you the power to hire and fire. How did you the power to hire and fire. How did you go about finding that wingman or go about finding that wingman or go about finding that wingman or identifying that person in your identifying that person in your identifying that person in your immediate circle? immediate circle? immediate circle? >> It's a great question. So, first of all, >> It's a great question. So, first of all, >> It's a great question. So, first of all, I think that you have to create a I think that you have to create a I think that you have to create a culture where people not only have culture where people not only have culture where people not only have permission to push back, but you permission to push back, but you permission to push back, but you celebrate it. For example, um Stu is in celebrate it. For example, um Stu is in celebrate it. For example, um Stu is in this room and uh the last two times we this room and uh the last two times we this room and uh the last two times we did videos, it meant so much to me. He did videos, it meant so much to me. He did videos, it meant so much to me. He stopped me and said, "Hey, you got too stopped me and said, "Hey, you got too stopped me and said, "Hey, you got too much energy. You sound like an much energy. You sound like an much energy. You sound like an announcer. Slow down." And and the first announcer. Slow down." And and the first announcer. Slow down." And and the first time I was a little bit shocked because time I was a little bit shocked because time I was a little bit shocked because the people typically don't do that and the people typically don't do that and the people typically don't do that and it [laughter] was like and I said thank it [laughter] was like and I said thank it [laughter] was like and I said thank you for that then I mean you really you for that then I mean you really you for that then I mean you really helped me and he did it again. He helped me and he did it again. He helped me and he did it again. He stopped me a second time and then he stopped me a second time and then he stopped me a second time and then he helped me become better and so I took helped me become better and so I took helped me become better and so I took him aside. I I think I wrote him a note him aside. I I think I wrote him a note him aside. I I think I wrote him a note or emailed him or something because it

or emailed him or something because it or emailed him or something because it meant so much to me. And then the next meant so much to me. And then the next meant so much to me. And then the next time we came and did the same thing time we came and did the same thing time we came and did the same thing again. I'm like I can trust this guy again. I'm like I can trust this guy again. I'm like I can trust this guy >> because in our organization most people >> because in our organization most people >> because in our organization most people would never do that. You have to create would never do that. You have to create would never do that. You have to create an organization where they feel safe to an organization where they feel safe to an organization where they feel safe to do it and then you celebrate it when do it and then you celebrate it when do it and then you celebrate it when they do they do they do >> that. You're going to have a hard time >> that. You're going to have a hard time >> that. You're going to have a hard time finding three close friends that will do finding three close friends that will do finding three close friends that will do that for you if you don't create a that for you if you don't create a that for you if you don't create a bigger net where that's celebrated. bigger net where that's celebrated. bigger net where that's celebrated. >> So then I don't know how someone else is >> So then I don't know how someone else is >> So then I don't know how someone else is going to find them. What I do know is going to find them. What I do know is going to find them. What I do know is that I had them already. I had a very that I had them already. I had a very that I had them already. I had a very strong network of friends. But what I strong network of friends. But what I strong network of friends. But what I had not done was had someone like Dr. C had not done was had someone like Dr. C had not done was had someone like Dr. C or didn't have the tools myself to say or didn't have the tools myself to say or didn't have the tools myself to say here's how you can help me. Here's what here's how you can help me. Here's what here's how you can help me. Here's what I need from you. Yes. So, I did in other I need from you. Yes. So, I did in other I need from you. Yes. So, I did in other things like I need you to keep me from things like I need you to keep me from things like I need you to keep me from doing too much of this or whatever, but doing too much of this or whatever, but doing too much of this or whatever, but I didn't create an environment to I didn't create an environment to I didn't create an environment to whenever you see me doing this, here's whenever you see me doing this, here's whenever you see me doing this, here's what you need to say to me. what you need to say to me. what you need to say to me. >> Uh, you know, or when you see any of >> Uh, you know, or when you see any of >> Uh, you know, or when you see any of these wrong things that um where my these wrong things that um where my these wrong things that um where my where there's red lights going on with where there's red lights going on with where there's red lights going on with because I'm doing too much, I want you because I'm doing too much, I want you because I'm doing too much, I want you to call me in and call this person, this to call me in and call this person, this to call me in and call this person, this person, get Amy in and have a come to person, get Amy in and have a come to person, get Amy in and have a come to Jesus meeting with me. And so thankfully Jesus meeting with me. And so thankfully Jesus meeting with me. And so thankfully we have not had to do much of that once we have not had to do much of that once we have not had to do much of that once creating the team because things sort creating the team because things sort creating the team because things sort got healthier. But there have been a got healthier. But there have been a got healthier. But there have been a couple times where Jen my assistant will couple times where Jen my assistant will couple times where Jen my assistant will say you told me if you get to this place say you told me if you get to this place say you told me if you get to this place you're doing too much. No you cannot go you're doing too much. No you cannot go you're doing too much. No you cannot go do that even though you want to do that even though you want to do that even though you want to [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> you know I go okay yes and so she >> you know I go okay yes and so she >> you know I go okay yes and so she becomes in some ways buffer and a boss becomes in some ways buffer and a boss becomes in some ways buffer and a boss to me like on you you know um help helps to me like on you you know um help helps to me like on you you know um help helps me not do too much. Yeah. So, one of the

me not do too much. Yeah. So, one of the me not do too much. Yeah. So, one of the things things things >> you have to receive it. I mean, you have >> you have to receive it. I mean, you have >> you have to receive it. I mean, you have if you don't want it, you know, if you don't want it, you know, if you don't want it, you know, >> right? If you're like, "Oh, here's why >> right? If you're like, "Oh, here's why >> right? If you're like, "Oh, here's why I'm doing it." I'm doing it." I'm doing it." >> First of all, you have to be honest >> First of all, you have to be honest >> First of all, you have to be honest about where you need the help. You have about where you need the help. You have about where you need the help. You have to do that. That's one big thing that to do that. That's one big thing that to do that. That's one big thing that pastors might not do. pastors might not do. pastors might not do. >> Second, you have to choose the right >> Second, you have to choose the right >> Second, you have to choose the right people. And they're probably there or if people. And they're probably there or if people. And they're probably there or if not, you're probably in bigger trouble. not, you're probably in bigger trouble. not, you're probably in bigger trouble. That's a bigger conversation, you know, That's a bigger conversation, you know, That's a bigger conversation, you know, and then you want to equip them with and then you want to equip them with and then you want to equip them with the, you know, and celebrate it when the, you know, and celebrate it when the, you know, and celebrate it when they do. Don't push back. Go. You're they do. Don't push back. Go. You're they do. Don't push back. Go. You're doing exactly, you know, I didn't want doing exactly, you know, I didn't want doing exactly, you know, I didn't want to hear that, but I needed to hear it. to hear that, but I needed to hear it. to hear that, but I needed to hear it. Thank you. That goes a long way. Thank you. That goes a long way. Thank you. That goes a long way. >> Yeah. Uh we can cut this if you don't >> Yeah. Uh we can cut this if you don't >> Yeah. Uh we can cut this if you don't want to talk about it or if it's not want to talk about it or if it's not want to talk about it or if it's not helpful, but when you take on a client, helpful, but when you take on a client, helpful, but when you take on a client, I assume you did this for Craig. You did I assume you did this for Craig. You did I assume you did this for Craig. You did it for me. You run them through this it for me. You run them through this it for me. You run them through this psychological profile called the NEO. psychological profile called the NEO. psychological profile called the NEO. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And one of the things it's sort of >> And one of the things it's sort of >> And one of the things it's sort of baseline, it's a it's a circle. So baseline, it's a it's a circle. So baseline, it's a it's a circle. So imagine this coffee cup baseline. This imagine this coffee cup baseline. This imagine this coffee cup baseline. This is like I don't know, you assess 20 or is like I don't know, you assess 20 or is like I don't know, you assess 20 or 30 different characteristics. And then 30 different characteristics. And then 30 different characteristics. And then it's like high performers, and this is it's like high performers, and this is it's like high performers, and this is military athletes, top leadership people military athletes, top leadership people military athletes, top leadership people have a different spectrum than the have a different spectrum than the have a different spectrum than the general population. And then you plot us general population. And then you plot us general population. And then you plot us against the mean or the average. And I against the mean or the average. And I against the mean or the average. And I remember my activity was off the charts.

remember my activity was off the charts. remember my activity was off the charts. And you're like, you are like clinically And you're like, you are like clinically And you're like, you are like clinically obsessed with activity. You cannot stop. obsessed with activity. You cannot stop. obsessed with activity. You cannot stop. And that has been a constant And that has been a constant And that has been a constant thing that everybody who's worked with thing that everybody who's worked with thing that everybody who's worked with me over the years has said. It's like, I me over the years has said. It's like, I me over the years has said. It's like, I just can't keep up. I can't keep up. I just can't keep up. I can't keep up. I just can't keep up. I can't keep up. I can't keep up. Right. I imagine yours can't keep up. Right. I imagine yours can't keep up. Right. I imagine yours would be similar. Could be something would be similar. Could be something would be similar. Could be something different. What did you to the level different. What did you to the level different. What did you to the level that you're comfortable sharing? Notice that you're comfortable sharing? Notice that you're comfortable sharing? Notice that was exceptional or off the charts. that was exceptional or off the charts. that was exceptional or off the charts. >> That's a that's a good question. Uh >> That's a that's a good question. Uh >> That's a that's a good question. Uh let's you want me to go ahead and throw let's you want me to go ahead and throw let's you want me to go ahead and throw that out there? that out there? that out there? >> There's nothing to hide. I'm there's >> There's nothing to hide. I'm there's >> There's nothing to hide. I'm there's nothing I'm embarrassed to share. nothing I'm embarrassed to share. nothing I'm embarrassed to share. >> So So that's the other thing I I think I >> So So that's the other thing I I think I >> So So that's the other thing I I think I I I would love for leaders to to I I would love for leaders to to I I would love for leaders to to understand and that is to be very understand and that is to be very understand and that is to be very transparent with their profiles. Um, and transparent with their profiles. Um, and transparent with their profiles. Um, and this assessment is a little bit this assessment is a little bit this assessment is a little bit different than typical assessments like different than typical assessments like different than typical assessments like anogs or strength finders where we like anogs or strength finders where we like anogs or strength finders where we like to put people in boxes and we create to put people in boxes and we create to put people in boxes and we create labels. Um, that's helpful, but but labels. Um, that's helpful, but but labels. Um, that's helpful, but but labels often times can be very labels often times can be very labels often times can be very restrictive. And so the last thing I'm restrictive. And so the last thing I'm restrictive. And so the last thing I'm going to do is put a label on anybody. going to do is put a label on anybody. going to do is put a label on anybody. What I really want to do is look at who What I really want to do is look at who What I really want to do is look at who you are holistically and understand what you are holistically and understand what you are holistically and understand what is your what is your fingerprint? What is your what is your fingerprint? What is your what is your fingerprint? What does your psychological fingerprint look does your psychological fingerprint look does your psychological fingerprint look like? Because the very things that make like? Because the very things that make like? Because the very things that make you great in some areas can be the very you great in some areas can be the very you great in some areas can be the very same things that actually create same things that actually create same things that actually create problems for you.

problems for you. problems for you. >> Yeah. My activity is a problem. >> Yeah. My activity is a problem. >> Yeah. My activity is a problem. >> Yeah. And so for like for like Craig, >> Yeah. And so for like for like Craig, >> Yeah. And so for like for like Craig, one of the things that that made him so one of the things that that made him so one of the things that that made him so great was not only his activity level great was not only his activity level great was not only his activity level being really high and he can take on a being really high and he can take on a being really high and he can take on a lot, but his expectations of himself lot, but his expectations of himself lot, but his expectations of himself were extraordinarily high as well. Those were extraordinarily high as well. Those were extraordinarily high as well. Those two particular character traits are the two particular character traits are the two particular character traits are the things that actually drive success. You things that actually drive success. You things that actually drive success. You can have a brilliant IQ, but if you're can have a brilliant IQ, but if you're can have a brilliant IQ, but if you're not willing to work hard and set a high not willing to work hard and set a high not willing to work hard and set a high set standards for yourself, you're not set standards for yourself, you're not set standards for yourself, you're not going to achieve. You can have an going to achieve. You can have an going to achieve. You can have an ordinary IQ, but if you have a high ordinary IQ, but if you have a high ordinary IQ, but if you have a high level of activity and you have a super level of activity and you have a super level of activity and you have a super high drive, you're likely going to to to high drive, you're likely going to to to high drive, you're likely going to to to excel. So, two things happened. One is, excel. So, two things happened. One is, excel. So, two things happened. One is, wo, I've got to I got to slow down. The wo, I've got to I got to slow down. The wo, I've got to I got to slow down. The thing that worked for me, the issues thing that worked for me, the issues thing that worked for me, the issues that got me here are not going to be the that got me here are not going to be the that got me here are not going to be the same things that are going to keep me same things that are going to keep me same things that are going to keep me here. And that's that sprinting piece. here. And that's that sprinting piece. here. And that's that sprinting piece. The second thing is how difficult or The second thing is how difficult or The second thing is how difficult or maybe critical he could be of himself in maybe critical he could be of himself in maybe critical he could be of himself in terms of just overall performance. And terms of just overall performance. And terms of just overall performance. And you look at him and I'm looking watching you look at him and I'm looking watching you look at him and I'm looking watching going, "Whoa, this is really good." But going, "Whoa, this is really good." But going, "Whoa, this is really good." But afterwards he might be like, "I could afterwards he might be like, "I could afterwards he might be like, "I could have done that better. I could have done have done that better. I could have done have done that better. I could have done this better." So there's this there's this better." So there's this there's this better." So there's this there's this now there's this constant drive.

this now there's this constant drive. this now there's this constant drive. Now what's interesting is Now what's interesting is Now what's interesting is >> movement is a good thing. We want to >> movement is a good thing. We want to >> movement is a good thing. We want to keep moving. We want to have that drive keep moving. We want to have that drive keep moving. We want to have that drive and a high level of activity. But and a high level of activity. But and a high level of activity. But sometimes we need to slow down. sometimes we need to slow down. sometimes we need to slow down. Sometimes we need to actually pause and Sometimes we need to actually pause and Sometimes we need to actually pause and breathe for a little bit because breathe for a little bit because breathe for a little bit because sometimes it's in the silence that we sometimes it's in the silence that we sometimes it's in the silence that we hear God's voice. And if we're hear God's voice. And if we're hear God's voice. And if we're constantly moving and busy, we will miss constantly moving and busy, we will miss constantly moving and busy, we will miss that. This episode is brought to you by that. This episode is brought to you by that. This episode is brought to you by our Fund the Future Master Class. A real our Fund the Future Master Class. A real our Fund the Future Master Class. A real quick word before we continue. One of quick word before we continue. One of quick word before we continue. One of the biggest challenges church leaders the biggest challenges church leaders the biggest challenges church leaders face isn't vision, it's funding the face isn't vision, it's funding the face isn't vision, it's funding the vision in a healthy, sustainable way. vision in a healthy, sustainable way. vision in a healthy, sustainable way. So, what do you do if your church So, what do you do if your church So, what do you do if your church finances feel stuck and giving doesn't finances feel stuck and giving doesn't finances feel stuck and giving doesn't match the mission you see God calling match the mission you see God calling match the mission you see God calling you toward? That's why I helped create you toward? That's why I helped create you toward? That's why I helped create the Fund the Future Master Class the Fund the Future Master Class the Fund the Future Master Class alongside Craig Relle, Ashley Wridge, alongside Craig Relle, Ashley Wridge, alongside Craig Relle, Ashley Wridge, Chris Hodgeges, and others. A course Chris Hodgeges, and others. A course Chris Hodgeges, and others. A course that we built to help you move beyond that we built to help you move beyond that we built to help you move beyond transactional conversations about money transactional conversations about money transactional conversations about money and into a transformational culture of and into a transformational culture of and into a transformational culture of generosity. It's a very simple generosity. It's a very simple generosity. It's a very simple step-by-step framework with practical step-by-step framework with practical step-by-step framework with practical strategies for casting vision that strategies for casting vision that strategies for casting vision that inspires, engaging donors in a way that inspires, engaging donors in a way that inspires, engaging donors in a way that feels healthy and biblical, and actually feels healthy and biblical, and actually feels healthy and biblical, and actually funding your church's mission funding your church's mission funding your church's mission sustainably for the long haul. You'll sustainably for the long haul. You'll sustainably for the long haul. You'll get actual tools and frameworks, not get actual tools and frameworks, not get actual tools and frameworks, not just ideas. And you'll learn alongside just ideas. And you'll learn alongside just ideas. And you'll learn alongside other leaders wrestling with exactly the other leaders wrestling with exactly the other leaders wrestling with exactly the same challenges you are. So, if you want same challenges you are. So, if you want same challenges you are. So, if you want to grow the church in a way that lasts, to grow the church in a way that lasts, to grow the church in a way that lasts, go check out the link in the description go check out the link in the description go check out the link in the description of this episode or simply visit of this episode or simply visit of this episode or simply visit caryneu-hoff.com/fundthe

caryneu-hoff.com/fundthe caryneu-hoff.com/fundthe future. That's carrynhoff.com/fund future. That's carrynhoff.com/fund future. That's carrynhoff.com/fund the future. the future. the future. >> What did you learn about yourself? >> What did you learn about yourself? >> What did you learn about yourself? >> Even Even hearing that now I know is >> Even Even hearing that now I know is >> Even Even hearing that now I know is true and I don't like hearing it. I true and I don't like hearing it. I true and I don't like hearing it. I don't I don't like the words when it don't I don't like the words when it don't I don't like the words when it comes out of his mouth. We need to slow comes out of his mouth. We need to slow comes out of his mouth. We need to slow and the way he said it slow down is and the way he said it slow down is and the way he said it slow down is irritating to me. irritating to me. irritating to me. >> What [laughter] What's underneath that? >> What [laughter] What's underneath that? >> What [laughter] What's underneath that? What's underneath that? What's underneath that? What's underneath that? >> Well, I don't really want to slow down. >> Well, I don't really want to slow down. >> Well, I don't really want to slow down. Like I I genuinely don't enjoy slow at Like I I genuinely don't enjoy slow at Like I I genuinely don't enjoy slow at all. I kind of hate it, all. I kind of hate it, all. I kind of hate it, >> you know? I don't want nothing to do. >> you know? I don't want nothing to do. >> you know? I don't want nothing to do. And I don't know if that's we haven't And I don't know if that's we haven't And I don't know if that's we haven't explored that, but maybe that's another explored that, but maybe that's another explored that, but maybe that's another problem. problem. problem. >> Take a take over. >> Take a take over. >> Take a take over. >> But I mean, but but like Dr. C helped me >> But I mean, but but like Dr. C helped me >> But I mean, but but like Dr. C helped me see like I would say, well, you know, so see like I would say, well, you know, so see like I would say, well, you know, so and so they're just lazy. And he's like and so they're just lazy. And he's like and so they're just lazy. And he's like going, "Well, how do you know they're going, "Well, how do you know they're going, "Well, how do you know they're lazy? Maybe they just have different lazy? Maybe they just have different lazy? Maybe they just have different values." Like their values are dumb values." Like their values are dumb values." Like their values are dumb because I just I couldn't I couldn't I because I just I couldn't I couldn't I because I just I couldn't I couldn't I don't understand slow. And so, but he don't understand slow. And so, but he don't understand slow. And so, but he did help me to see that disconnecting is did help me to see that disconnecting is did help me to see that disconnecting is really important, you know, and and um really important, you know, and and um really important, you know, and and um that was part of his kind of that was part of his kind of that was part of his kind of prescription. prescription. prescription. >> Well, also disconnecting from work, too.

>> Well, also disconnecting from work, too. >> Well, also disconnecting from work, too. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And what I find interesting is working >> And what I find interesting is working >> And what I find interesting is working with professional athletes, now with professional athletes, now with professional athletes, now entertainers to to looking at special entertainers to to looking at special entertainers to to looking at special operations. I'm looking at pastors and operations. I'm looking at pastors and operations. I'm looking at pastors and going, "Oh my goodness, this that you going, "Oh my goodness, this that you going, "Oh my goodness, this that you can get away with things in these other can get away with things in these other can get away with things in these other high-erforming positions." um in your high-erforming positions." um in your high-erforming positions." um in your personal life that that that uh you you personal life that that that uh you you personal life that that that uh you you can't get away as a pastor. And so the can't get away as a pastor. And so the can't get away as a pastor. And so the personal and the professional are much personal and the professional are much personal and the professional are much more integrated and combined. And so more integrated and combined. And so more integrated and combined. And so half the battle was also figuring out half the battle was also figuring out half the battle was also figuring out well how do you disconnect mentally and well how do you disconnect mentally and well how do you disconnect mentally and emotionally enough from work emotionally enough from work emotionally enough from work >> um and have balance uh and also do it >> um and have balance uh and also do it >> um and have balance uh and also do it well where you're not only just well where you're not only just well where you're not only just disconnecting but you also come back disconnecting but you also come back disconnecting but you also come back free. Yes. free. Yes. free. Yes. >> Yes. Well, this is the problem, right? >> Yes. Well, this is the problem, right? >> Yes. Well, this is the problem, right? Because okay, I'm going to take some Because okay, I'm going to take some Because okay, I'm going to take some time off, but your phone's with you, time off, but your phone's with you, time off, but your phone's with you, your laptop's with you, your head's your laptop's with you, your head's your laptop's with you, your head's moving. Oh, I could do this on Sunday. I moving. Oh, I could do this on Sunday. I moving. Oh, I could do this on Sunday. I could do Well, you're working 17 weeks could do Well, you're working 17 weeks could do Well, you're working 17 weeks ahead, but you know, I could do this in ahead, but you know, I could do this in ahead, but you know, I could do this in the summer. the summer. the summer. >> And you gave them an interesting >> And you gave them an interesting >> And you gave them an interesting prescription or or diagnosis and then prescription or or diagnosis and then prescription or or diagnosis and then prescription. And I want to talk about prescription. And I want to talk about prescription. And I want to talk about that because people who follow you that because people who follow you that because people who follow you closely, which is a lot of people who closely, which is a lot of people who closely, which is a lot of people who are watching or listening, all of a are watching or listening, all of a are watching or listening, all of a sudden are like, "Oh, that's why he did sudden are like, "Oh, that's why he did sudden are like, "Oh, that's why he did that." They'll put the the two together.

that." They'll put the the two together. that." They'll put the the two together. But I think the diagnosis was depletion. But I think the diagnosis was depletion. But I think the diagnosis was depletion. Depletion. Depletion. Depletion. >> Is that right? What what is depletion? >> Is that right? What what is depletion? >> Is that right? What what is depletion? >> Um well, I would have to say the >> Um well, I would have to say the >> Um well, I would have to say the depletion is essentially where you depletion is essentially where you depletion is essentially where you you're running out of energy. You just you're running out of energy. You just you're running out of energy. You just emotionally, physically, I'll say just emotionally, physically, I'll say just emotionally, physically, I'll say just physically and mentally, you just your physically and mentally, you just your physically and mentally, you just your your energy's done. your energy's done. your energy's done. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And as a result, you can't function at >> And as a result, you can't function at >> And as a result, you can't function at the level that you expect of yourself or the level that you expect of yourself or the level that you expect of yourself or or should be doing. or should be doing. or should be doing. >> So, you're stepping on the gas, but the >> So, you're stepping on the gas, but the >> So, you're stepping on the gas, but the power is not there. That's right. And power is not there. That's right. And power is not there. That's right. And and one of the sayings that we had come and one of the sayings that we had come and one of the sayings that we had come up with was just because you can doesn't up with was just because you can doesn't up with was just because you can doesn't mean you should. mean you should. mean you should. >> I've heard that. >> I've heard that. >> I've heard that. >> And when you are wired to constantly be >> And when you are wired to constantly be >> And when you are wired to constantly be busy and to take on lots of things, busy and to take on lots of things, busy and to take on lots of things, there's always this desire to say yes. there's always this desire to say yes. there's always this desire to say yes. Um to request for speaking engagements, Um to request for speaking engagements, Um to request for speaking engagements, for um doing all these other sort of for um doing all these other sort of for um doing all these other sort of things that were levied upon him. And I things that were levied upon him. And I things that were levied upon him. And I think being a pastor and his level of think being a pastor and his level of think being a pastor and his level of visibility, there's no shortage of visibility, there's no shortage of visibility, there's no shortage of demand for his attention. Oh yeah. made demand for his attention. Oh yeah. made demand for his attention. Oh yeah. made it all. And the other piece with it all. And the other piece with it all. And the other piece with disconnecting is because he's so disconnecting is because he's so disconnecting is because he's so visible, it's hard for him to go out in visible, it's hard for him to go out in visible, it's hard for him to go out in public without being recognized public without being recognized public without being recognized >> and that only can add to >> and that only can add to >> and that only can add to >> you can't go to a restaurant in Oklahoma >> you can't go to a restaurant in Oklahoma >> you can't go to a restaurant in Oklahoma City without somebody, I'm sure, saying City without somebody, I'm sure, saying City without somebody, I'm sure, saying hello.

hello. hello. >> What what people I think don't realize >> What what people I think don't realize >> What what people I think don't realize is that's very similar to professional is that's very similar to professional is that's very similar to professional athletes. athletes. athletes. >> Um Shay can't go out in in the general >> Um Shay can't go out in in the general >> Um Shay can't go out in in the general public without being recognized in public without being recognized in public without being recognized in Oklahoma City, right? And when that Oklahoma City, right? And when that Oklahoma City, right? And when that happens, people will, you know, come up happens, people will, you know, come up happens, people will, you know, come up to him to him to him >> NBA player >> NBA player >> NBA player >> for those like me who don't know sports, >> for those like me who don't know sports, >> for those like me who don't know sports, >> MVP of the NBA. also [laughter] also >> MVP of the NBA. also [laughter] also >> MVP of the NBA. also [laughter] also that also that that also that that also that >> yeah right uh so yeah it was depletion >> yeah right uh so yeah it was depletion >> yeah right uh so yeah it was depletion and and one of the things about Craig and and one of the things about Craig and and one of the things about Craig before I had met him was maybe people before I had met him was maybe people before I had met him was maybe people around me will help control some of the around me will help control some of the around me will help control some of the things that are depleting me and not things that are depleting me and not things that are depleting me and not recognizing that the only thing that recognizing that the only thing that recognizing that the only thing that that if he's going to get better he has that if he's going to get better he has that if he's going to get better he has to focus in on what he can control to focus in on what he can control to focus in on what he can control versus what he can't control and what he versus what he can't control and what he versus what he can't control and what he can control is him can control is him can control is him >> and the decisions that he makes and the >> and the decisions that he makes and the >> and the decisions that he makes and the way that he thinks. way that he thinks. way that he thinks. >> So, your prescription was >> So, your prescription was >> So, your prescription was >> Oh, man. We had a lot of prescriptions. >> Oh, man. We had a lot of prescriptions. >> Oh, man. We had a lot of prescriptions. >> Well, [laughter] >> Well, [laughter] >> Well, [laughter] what I was thinking about and I've tried what I was thinking about and I've tried what I was thinking about and I've tried to tell this story, but it may not be to tell this story, but it may not be to tell this story, but it may not be accurate. You told me to go make a list accurate. You told me to go make a list accurate. You told me to go make a list of was it 30 35? What did you say? Make of was it 30 35? What did you say? Make of was it 30 35? What did you say? Make a list of a list of a list of >> 30 things that are daring, high >> 30 things that are daring, high >> 30 things that are daring, high adrenaline. You tell tell me what you adrenaline. You tell tell me what you adrenaline. You tell tell me what you said.

said. said. >> Yeah. So, um, essentially was I want you >> Yeah. So, um, essentially was I want you >> Yeah. So, um, essentially was I want you to take a list and create a list of 30 to take a list and create a list of 30 to take a list and create a list of 30 things that things that things that >> allow you to refuel what I would call >> allow you to refuel what I would call >> allow you to refuel what I would call the dopamine and the neuropinephrine and the dopamine and the neuropinephrine and the dopamine and the neuropinephrine and the serotonin because when you get the serotonin because when you get the serotonin because when you get really stressed out over a long period really stressed out over a long period really stressed out over a long period of time, your cortisol levels go up and of time, your cortisol levels go up and of time, your cortisol levels go up and all these other sort of reward factors all these other sort of reward factors all these other sort of reward factors go down. So, create a list that allows go down. So, create a list that allows go down. So, create a list that allows you to explore things that you would you to explore things that you would you to explore things that you would love to do and that separates you and love to do and that separates you and love to do and that separates you and completely disconnects. But it's got to completely disconnects. But it's got to completely disconnects. But it's got to have freedom. Mhm. have freedom. Mhm. have freedom. Mhm. >> It can't be cuz you're inside all day. >> It can't be cuz you're inside all day. >> It can't be cuz you're inside all day. It's got to be somewhere outside. It's got to be somewhere outside. It's got to be somewhere outside. >> Uh because you're very well controlled >> Uh because you're very well controlled >> Uh because you're very well controlled and composed. It has to be something in and composed. It has to be something in and composed. It has to be something in which you are allowed to do things that which you are allowed to do things that which you are allowed to do things that you couldn't do at work. Um and to let you couldn't do at work. Um and to let you couldn't do at work. Um and to let some of that some of that some of that freedom freedom freedom to to to be essentially aggressive. to to to be essentially aggressive. to to to be essentially aggressive. >> Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. To be a man. >> Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. To be a man. >> Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. To be a man. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Something that's so low. Yeah. But but Something that's so low. Yeah. But but Something that's so low. Yeah. But but it's like you know so much of what we do it's like you know so much of what we do it's like you know so much of what we do is pastoral and it needs to be and is pastoral and it needs to be and is pastoral and it needs to be and there's and I always joke around long there's and I always joke around long there's and I always joke around long before I was a pastor I used to be a man before I was a pastor I used to be a man before I was a pastor I used to be a man but it's like [laughter] it was a joke but it's like [laughter] it was a joke but it's like [laughter] it was a joke but like I don't get to go do things but like I don't get to go do things but like I don't get to go do things that are aggressive um which would be that are aggressive um which would be that are aggressive um which would be fun not you know like sports there's not fun not you know like sports there's not fun not you know like sports there's not a you and so that advice oddly enough a you and so that advice oddly enough a you and so that advice oddly enough though seemed really dumb to me like why though seemed really dumb to me like why though seemed really dumb to me like why would I want to go ride motorcycles why would I want to go ride motorcycles why would I want to go ride motorcycles why would I want to go climb a mountain I would I want to go climb a mountain I would I want to go climb a mountain I don't have time for that and it's not don't have time for that and it's not don't have time for that and it's not productive and so it seems so it doesn't productive and so it seems so it doesn't productive and so it seems so it doesn't and and like I'd never done a guys trip

and and like I'd never done a guys trip and and like I'd never done a guys trip in my life and don't want to you want to in my life and don't want to you want to in my life and don't want to you want to go play golf like [laughter] takes too go play golf like [laughter] takes too go play golf like [laughter] takes too much time I'm not going to go play golf much time I'm not going to go play golf much time I'm not going to go play golf who who has time for that so there was who who has time for that so there was who who has time for that so there was kind of this almost reverse dangerous kind of this almost reverse dangerous kind of this almost reverse dangerous pride like I don't do that kind of pride like I don't do that kind of pride like I don't do that kind of stupid stuff and and so when he told me stupid stuff and and so when he told me stupid stuff and and so when he told me that I kind of pushed back and said like that I kind of pushed back and said like that I kind of pushed back and said like that's dumb and he he said something that's dumb and he he said something that's dumb and he he said something like fair enough so here's your options like fair enough so here's your options like fair enough so here's your options you And you know, you can listen to what you And you know, you can listen to what you And you know, you can listen to what I'm saying, try it and possibly get I'm saying, try it and possibly get I'm saying, try it and possibly get better. Or you can fire me, go hire better. Or you can fire me, go hire better. Or you can fire me, go hire someone else, spend another year with someone else, spend another year with someone else, spend another year with them and come to the same place, or you them and come to the same place, or you them and come to the same place, or you can stay stuck in your same cycle. can stay stuck in your same cycle. can stay stuck in your same cycle. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] And I go, "Okay, fine. I'll go try And I go, "Okay, fine. I'll go try And I go, "Okay, fine. I'll go try something, you know, do something dumb." something, you know, do something dumb." something, you know, do something dumb." >> Yeah. And and I think I only came up >> Yeah. And and I think I only came up >> Yeah. And and I think I only came up with two things to try because I with two things to try because I with two things to try because I couldn't think of five. Maybe I came up couldn't think of five. Maybe I came up couldn't think of five. Maybe I came up with three or four. I don't know what it with three or four. I don't know what it with three or four. I don't know what it was, but I tried one and tried the other was, but I tried one and tried the other was, but I tried one and tried the other one. And I surprisingly came back going, one. And I surprisingly came back going, one. And I surprisingly came back going, "Oh, I'm alive." "Oh, I'm alive." "Oh, I'm alive." >> I have [laughter] >> I have [laughter] >> I have [laughter] like And uh flying in particular, you like And uh flying in particular, you like And uh flying in particular, you know, I took up flying, which I had no know, I took up flying, which I had no know, I took up flying, which I had no interest in it before, interest in it before, interest in it before, >> now becomes one of the most um >> now becomes one of the most um >> now becomes one of the most um incredible um distractions because I'm incredible um distractions because I'm incredible um distractions because I'm learning. I've went I've went crazy. I learning. I've went I've went crazy. I learning. I've went I've went crazy. I got my, you know, instrument rating. I got my, you know, instrument rating. I got my, you know, instrument rating. I got a type rating. I got that commercial got a type rating. I got that commercial got a type rating. I got that commercial rating. Um rating. Um rating. Um >> you can now fly people legally.

>> you can now fly people legally. >> you can now fly people legally. >> Well, yeah. And >> Well, yeah. And >> Well, yeah. And I could be paid. I won't ever have a I could be paid. I won't ever have a I could be paid. I won't ever have a commercial, but I just I just wanted to commercial, but I just I just wanted to commercial, but I just I just wanted to be good at it. And so, [laughter] uh, I be good at it. And so, [laughter] uh, I be good at it. And so, [laughter] uh, I it it gave me it gave me those two it it gave me it gave me those two it it gave me it gave me those two things gave me an outside it gave me the things gave me an outside it gave me the things gave me an outside it gave me the ability to stop thinking about the ability to stop thinking about the ability to stop thinking about the church. And oddly enough, when I stopped church. And oddly enough, when I stopped church. And oddly enough, when I stopped thinking about it, I got better thinking thinking about it, I got better thinking thinking about it, I got better thinking about it when I came back, you know, and about it when I came back, you know, and about it when I came back, you know, and it gave me a whole new growth area to it gave me a whole new growth area to it gave me a whole new growth area to say, "Okay, I'm 58, but I'm learning say, "Okay, I'm 58, but I'm learning say, "Okay, I'm 58, but I'm learning like I'm an 18-year-old. I'm I can take like I'm an 18-year-old. I'm I can take like I'm an 18-year-old. I'm I can take on new things." And that was really on new things." And that was really on new things." And that was really good. good. good. >> The other was Go ahead. I was going to >> The other was Go ahead. I was going to >> The other was Go ahead. I was going to throw in so so your in your environment throw in so so your in your environment throw in so so your in your environment that you're in especially as a high that you're in especially as a high that you're in especially as a high performer high visibility your life is performer high visibility your life is performer high visibility your life is very rest restricted very rest restricted very rest restricted >> I mean you had to be very composed so >> I mean you had to be very composed so >> I mean you had to be very composed so one of the one of the things that I one of the one of the things that I one of the one of the things that I remember asking you to do is do remember asking you to do is do remember asking you to do is do something that when you're doing it you something that when you're doing it you something that when you're doing it you can't think about anything else because can't think about anything else because can't think about anything else because it'll be harmful to you [laughter] it'll be harmful to you [laughter] it'll be harmful to you [laughter] >> that that you have to be >> that that you have to be >> that that you have to be >> yeah same with jiu-jitsu I'm going get >> yeah same with jiu-jitsu I'm going get >> yeah same with jiu-jitsu I'm going get I'm getting beat up you know and you're I'm getting beat up you know and you're I'm getting beat up you know and you're tangled [clears throat] up by people tangled [clears throat] up by people tangled [clears throat] up by people that weigh 30 lbs less than me that's that weigh 30 lbs less than me that's that weigh 30 lbs less than me that's you know it's humbling you know it's humbling you know it's humbling And it's and I'm learning something. And And it's and I'm learning something. And And it's and I'm learning something. And so both those things they take so both those things they take so both those things they take tremendous focus, lots of learning and tremendous focus, lots of learning and tremendous focus, lots of learning and they get my mind off.

they get my mind off. they get my mind off. >> Yeah. So let me put throw this out. Here >> Yeah. So let me put throw this out. Here >> Yeah. So let me put throw this out. Here you are. You're depleted, right? That's you are. You're depleted, right? That's you are. You're depleted, right? That's kind of like the diagnosis. You're kind of like the diagnosis. You're kind of like the diagnosis. You're really exhausted. You don't have much really exhausted. You don't have much really exhausted. You don't have much energy. And yet the activity that that energy. And yet the activity that that energy. And yet the activity that that we were prescribing for you was go out we were prescribing for you was go out we were prescribing for you was go out and learn how to fight and fly planes. and learn how to fight and fly planes. and learn how to fight and fly planes. put yourself in a position in which put yourself in a position in which put yourself in a position in which you're gonna get hurt and you can't you're gonna get hurt and you can't you're gonna get hurt and you can't think of anything else other than what think of anything else other than what think of anything else other than what it is that you're doing. Yeah. it is that you're doing. Yeah. it is that you're doing. Yeah. [laughter] Right. So, you're sitting I I [laughter] Right. So, you're sitting I I [laughter] Right. So, you're sitting I I don't want to take a break to feel don't want to take a break to feel don't want to take a break to feel alive. And I'm like, "All right, let's alive. And I'm like, "All right, let's alive. And I'm like, "All right, let's fix that." fix that." fix that." >> Uh, as soon as you're done, right? When >> Uh, as soon as you're done, right? When >> Uh, as soon as you're done, right? When when you finish at the end of the day, when you finish at the end of the day, when you finish at the end of the day, go fight. Go fight somebody. Learn how go fight. Go fight somebody. Learn how go fight. Go fight somebody. Learn how to fight. Learn how to to to to engage to fight. Learn how to to to to engage to fight. Learn how to to to to engage in handtohand combat and be effective at in handtohand combat and be effective at in handtohand combat and be effective at it. Um, great. learn how to fly a plane it. Um, great. learn how to fly a plane it. Um, great. learn how to fly a plane at, you know, a jet speed while you're at, you know, a jet speed while you're at, you know, a jet speed while you're flying down, you know, and and and I flying down, you know, and and and I flying down, you know, and and and I remember you you you sent me this um remember you you you sent me this um remember you you you sent me this um text message and it was just awesome. text message and it was just awesome. text message and it was just awesome. You're I I think you were um on the You're I I think you were um on the You're I I think you were um on the flight line. You were probably doing flight line. You were probably doing flight line. You were probably doing well over 100 miles an hour in an well over 100 miles an hour in an well over 100 miles an hour in an aircraft, a small aircraft, and uh you aircraft, a small aircraft, and uh you aircraft, a small aircraft, and uh you guys hit a deer. And that is something guys hit a deer. And that is something guys hit a deer. And that is something that is like could could kill people, that is like could could kill people, that is like could could kill people, right? I mean, and here you are, you're right? I mean, and here you are, you're right? I mean, and here you are, you're like, "Wa, I I'm not having to take a like, "Wa, I I'm not having to take a like, "Wa, I I'm not having to take a break to feel alive." Um and I'm looking break to feel alive." Um and I'm looking break to feel alive." Um and I'm looking at this. [laughter] at this. [laughter] at this. [laughter] >> Okay. So just so so I said we can share >> Okay. So just so so I said we can share >> Okay. So just so so I said we can share anything. That's one thing we haven't anything. That's one thing we haven't anything. That's one thing we haven't shared. But I will say yeah I was shared. But I will say yeah I was shared. But I will say yeah I was actually I I flew the first leg to go actually I I flew the first leg to go actually I I flew the first leg to go see a campus and then my friend flew the see a campus and then my friend flew the see a campus and then my friend flew the second leg and we were coming in for second leg and we were coming in for second leg and we were coming in for landing and and it was a place that now landing and and it was a place that now landing and and it was a place that now they have deer um protection because they have deer um protection because they have deer um protection because there so they get so many strikes. Yeah.

there so they get so many strikes. Yeah. there so they get so many strikes. Yeah. A deer ran out in front of us and uh A deer ran out in front of us and uh A deer ran out in front of us and uh yeah. So we did we did clip a deer. I yeah. So we did we did clip a deer. I yeah. So we did we did clip a deer. I was I was not flying the plane, but I was I was not flying the plane, but I was I was not flying the plane, but I was right seat. And um we survived it. was right seat. And um we survived it. was right seat. And um we survived it. And then I forced myself to go up And then I forced myself to go up And then I forced myself to go up immediately the next day. And it wasn't immediately the next day. And it wasn't immediately the next day. And it wasn't hard. It was like, you know, there it hard. It was like, you know, there it hard. It was like, you know, there it is. That's that's what you were afraid is. That's that's what you were afraid is. That's that's what you were afraid of. And you know, it just happened and of. And you know, it just happened and of. And you know, it just happened and we lived through it. we lived through it. we lived through it. >> So the key, if I'm if I'm getting this >> So the key, if I'm if I'm getting this >> So the key, if I'm if I'm getting this right, cuz that's not a prescription for right, cuz that's not a prescription for right, cuz that's not a prescription for everybody. Like I'm probably not going everybody. Like I'm probably not going everybody. Like I'm probably not going to go enroll in jiu-jitsu. I'm not wired to go enroll in jiu-jitsu. I'm not wired to go enroll in jiu-jitsu. I'm not wired the same way you are. the same way you are. the same way you are. >> No, most people should not. for you that >> No, most people should not. for you that >> No, most people should not. for you that was something to be excited about, was something to be excited about, was something to be excited about, something difficult something difficult something difficult >> and not everyone else needs the >> and not everyone else needs the >> and not everyone else needs the adrenaline, you know, so that I wouldn't adrenaline, you know, so that I wouldn't adrenaline, you know, so that I wouldn't say that. But what what everyone does say that. But what what everyone does say that. But what what everyone does need is a good team of people around need is a good team of people around need is a good team of people around them. Yeah. them. Yeah. them. Yeah. >> That every highprofile every high >> That every highprofile every high >> That every highprofile every high effective leader needs a great effective leader needs a great effective leader needs a great >> I like the idea of something that will >> I like the idea of something that will >> I like the idea of something that will take your mind off work because work is take your mind off work because work is take your mind off work because work is always on my mind. always on my mind. always on my mind. >> I think Dr. C probably told you >> I think Dr. C probably told you >> I think Dr. C probably told you something similar. something similar. something similar. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I haven't haven't done as >> Yeah. And I haven't haven't done as >> Yeah. And I haven't haven't done as well. Um, on that note, well. Um, on that note, well. Um, on that note, >> let's talk about new. Let's talk about >> let's talk about new. Let's talk about >> let's talk about new. Let's talk about new. We're out of time. Look [laughter] new. We're out of time. Look [laughter] new. We're out of time. Look [laughter] at that. Wow. Time flies.

at that. Wow. Time flies. at that. Wow. Time flies. >> Well, but but I think what what was key >> Well, but but I think what what was key >> Well, but but I think what what was key there was just the balance, right? there was just the balance, right? there was just the balance, right? Because what you do is so benevolent. Because what you do is so benevolent. Because what you do is so benevolent. You shape the hearts and minds of You shape the hearts and minds of You shape the hearts and minds of thousands of people to help them live a thousands of people to help them live a thousands of people to help them live a life that's better versions of life that's better versions of life that's better versions of themselves. And because of that, it's themselves. And because of that, it's themselves. And because of that, it's easy to give and give and give without easy to give and give and give without easy to give and give and give without looking at oneself and going, "What do I looking at oneself and going, "What do I looking at oneself and going, "What do I need to do to take care of myself?" And need to do to take care of myself?" And need to do to take care of myself?" And then we get so stuck in that pattern then we get so stuck in that pattern then we get so stuck in that pattern that we forget, man, there's so many that we forget, man, there's so many that we forget, man, there's so many things out there that we can be doing things out there that we can be doing things out there that we can be doing and should be doing that allow for us to and should be doing that allow for us to and should be doing that allow for us to step outside of the work that we're step outside of the work that we're step outside of the work that we're doing that become um expressions of doing that become um expressions of doing that become um expressions of ourselves ourselves ourselves >> and allow us to actually when we return >> and allow us to actually when we return >> and allow us to actually when we return to work be better versions of ourselves. to work be better versions of ourselves. to work be better versions of ourselves. um God designed you to have very um God designed you to have very um God designed you to have very specific interests and when you let specific interests and when you let specific interests and when you let those things go um in favor of other s those things go um in favor of other s those things go um in favor of other s sort of things um they'll uh they'll sort of things um they'll uh they'll sort of things um they'll uh they'll cause they'll cause the depression. cause they'll cause the depression. cause they'll cause the depression. >> My what I was going to do it's funny I >> My what I was going to do it's funny I >> My what I was going to do it's funny I said I haven't done it yet but I said I haven't done it yet but I said I haven't done it yet but I remember I bought a brand new road bike remember I bought a brand new road bike remember I bought a brand new road bike this spring and I wasn't going to get this spring and I wasn't going to get this spring and I wasn't going to get into peak fitness and then I got sick into peak fitness and then I got sick into peak fitness and then I got sick and landed up in the hospital and I'm and landed up in the hospital and I'm and landed up in the hospital and I'm recovered now but like I' I've put that recovered now but like I' I've put that recovered now but like I' I've put that one on the shelf but I'm pulling it back one on the shelf but I'm pulling it back one on the shelf but I'm pulling it back out. Yeah. I'm going to I'm going to get out. Yeah. I'm going to I'm going to get out. Yeah. I'm going to I'm going to get into the shape of my life uh over the into the shape of my life uh over the into the shape of my life uh over the next year and that's what I'm going to next year and that's what I'm going to next year and that's what I'm going to do.

do. do. >> So, sometimes life throws you a >> So, sometimes life throws you a >> So, sometimes life throws you a curveball. curveball. curveball. >> Craig, uh this new book you've you've >> Craig, uh this new book you've you've >> Craig, uh this new book you've you've written with Dr. C written with Dr. C written with Dr. C >> is is it kind of a companion book to >> is is it kind of a companion book to >> is is it kind of a companion book to winning the war in your mind? winning the war in your mind? winning the war in your mind? >> It wasn't meant to be, but um in titling >> It wasn't meant to be, but um in titling >> It wasn't meant to be, but um in titling it, we actually it was we kind of it, we actually it was we kind of it, we actually it was we kind of debated, should we use the word mind debated, should we use the word mind debated, should we use the word mind again because we call this one heal your again because we call this one heal your again because we call this one heal your hurting mind and winning the war war in hurting mind and winning the war war in hurting mind and winning the war war in your mind. And I actually wanted to do your mind. And I actually wanted to do your mind. And I actually wanted to do that. The book is entirely different and that. The book is entirely different and that. The book is entirely different and it's it's all about it's it's all about it's it's all about >> it's you know about anger, depression, >> it's you know about anger, depression, >> it's you know about anger, depression, depletion, burnout and and mental depletion, burnout and and mental depletion, burnout and and mental health. And so I didn't want to write health. And so I didn't want to write health. And so I didn't want to write that book alone because I'm not a that book alone because I'm not a that book alone because I'm not a clinical psychologist. And so that's why clinical psychologist. And so that's why clinical psychologist. And so that's why I asked Dr. C to write it with me. Um I asked Dr. C to write it with me. Um I asked Dr. C to write it with me. Um but I wanted to bring a pastoral but I wanted to bring a pastoral but I wanted to bring a pastoral perspective and a scriptural perspective and a scriptural perspective and a scriptural understanding to some of the more common understanding to some of the more common understanding to some of the more common problems facing pastors, leaders, and problems facing pastors, leaders, and problems facing pastors, leaders, and just everybody today. But I wanted to just everybody today. But I wanted to just everybody today. But I wanted to help with it. And um so I'd say it's help with it. And um so I'd say it's help with it. And um so I'd say it's very complimementaryary very complimementaryary very complimementaryary >> but um but entirely different. >> but um but entirely different. >> but um but entirely different. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So being a a uber high performer you >> So being a a uber high performer you >> So being a a uber high performer you you know you were you have been very you know you were you have been very you know you were you have been very candid with struggling with negative candid with struggling with negative candid with struggling with negative thoughts negative selft talk.

thoughts negative selft talk. thoughts negative selft talk. >> What since you wrote um winning the war >> What since you wrote um winning the war >> What since you wrote um winning the war in your mind in your mind in your mind >> what's happened with those negative >> what's happened with those negative >> what's happened with those negative thoughts? Yeah. So, so winning the war thoughts? Yeah. So, so winning the war thoughts? Yeah. So, so winning the war in your mind was both it was um it was a in your mind was both it was um it was a in your mind was both it was um it was a um it was a journey of kind of um it was a journey of kind of um it was a journey of kind of self-learning. I I just got completely self-learning. I I just got completely self-learning. I I just got completely obsessed with how does the brain work obsessed with how does the brain work obsessed with how does the brain work and God created it and how can I and God created it and how can I and God created it and how can I >> maximize this amazing tool for his >> maximize this amazing tool for his >> maximize this amazing tool for his glory? And same with like physical glory? And same with like physical glory? And same with like physical things like people say why do you care things like people say why do you care things like people say why do you care about being in shape? Like going I want about being in shape? Like going I want about being in shape? Like going I want to bring my best self to the work of God to bring my best self to the work of God to bring my best self to the work of God every day. And so it's not you know I every day. And so it's not you know I every day. And so it's not you know I don't post pictures my my shirt off the don't post pictures my my shirt off the don't post pictures my my shirt off the number one I'm too old. That would be number one I'm too old. That would be number one I'm too old. That would be gross. But but I don't that's not the gross. But but I don't that's not the gross. But but I don't that's not the reason. But it's because holistically as reason. But it's because holistically as reason. But it's because holistically as disciples of Jesus, we should disciples of Jesus, we should disciples of Jesus, we should >> our marriage, our our relationship with >> our marriage, our our relationship with >> our marriage, our our relationship with God, our fitness, our mind, our body, God, our fitness, our mind, our body, God, our fitness, our mind, our body, our soul. We should do it the best we our soul. We should do it the best we our soul. We should do it the best we can to bring the best of that version can to bring the best of that version can to bring the best of that version everywhere. So I got really obsessed everywhere. So I got really obsessed everywhere. So I got really obsessed with um learning about the mind. And I I with um learning about the mind. And I I with um learning about the mind. And I I forgot a question. You I was forgot a question. You I was forgot a question. You I was >> Oh, no. I What happened to negative >> Oh, no. I What happened to negative >> Oh, no. I What happened to negative thoughts since you wrote that book? So, thoughts since you wrote that book? So, thoughts since you wrote that book? So, so what what I've really as a um as a so what what I've really as a um as a so what what I've really as a um as a high achiever, high achiever, high achiever, >> one of the ways you get there sometimes >> one of the ways you get there sometimes >> one of the ways you get there sometimes is you raise the standards for yourself.

is you raise the standards for yourself. is you raise the standards for yourself. Well, I was also hard on myself. And so, Well, I was also hard on myself. And so, Well, I was also hard on myself. And so, what someone else might score an eight, what someone else might score an eight, what someone else might score an eight, I'd be like, "No, no, that was a five. I I'd be like, "No, no, that was a five. I I'd be like, "No, no, that was a five. I could do better." And so, I would use my could do better." And so, I would use my could do better." And so, I would use my own high standards to push myself to be own high standards to push myself to be own high standards to push myself to be better. But negative thinking is better. But negative thinking is better. But negative thinking is negative thinking, period. And it's not, negative thinking, period. And it's not, negative thinking, period. And it's not, you cannot have a positive impact if you you cannot have a positive impact if you you cannot have a positive impact if you always have a negative thought process. always have a negative thought process. always have a negative thought process. So, I literally trained just like I'll So, I literally trained just like I'll So, I literally trained just like I'll train my muscles, I retrained my brain, train my muscles, I retrained my brain, train my muscles, I retrained my brain, you know, neural pathways, brain ruts, you know, neural pathways, brain ruts, you know, neural pathways, brain ruts, whatever you want to call it, to think whatever you want to call it, to think whatever you want to call it, to think on very specific truths. And so now what on very specific truths. And so now what on very specific truths. And so now what happens is anytime I get into a negative happens is anytime I get into a negative happens is anytime I get into a negative thought pattern, I don't have to stay thought pattern, I don't have to stay thought pattern, I don't have to stay there long. I catch it, capture it, there long. I catch it, capture it, there long. I catch it, capture it, replace it, and I have a just statements replace it, and I have a just statements replace it, and I have a just statements that I say over and over again. And it's that I say over and over again. And it's that I say over and over again. And it's so much easier. It doesn't mean that I so much easier. It doesn't mean that I so much easier. It doesn't mean that I never have don't have negative thoughts, never have don't have negative thoughts, never have don't have negative thoughts, but it doesn't it doesn't mean they hit but it doesn't it doesn't mean they hit but it doesn't it doesn't mean they hit me as hard or as long um and they don't me as hard or as long um and they don't me as hard or as long um and they don't have the same effect because I can have the same effect because I can have the same effect because I can recognize and replace them. And it's recognize and replace them. And it's recognize and replace them. And it's it's a game changer. it's a game changer. it's a game changer. >> It's and it's not this is not just >> It's and it's not this is not just >> It's and it's not this is not just positive thinking. This is renewing your positive thinking. This is renewing your positive thinking. This is renewing your mind according to the truth of God. And mind according to the truth of God. And mind according to the truth of God. And it's it's it's it's it's it's >> so that's gotten a lot better.

>> so that's gotten a lot better. >> so that's gotten a lot better. >> A a lot better. >> A a lot better. >> A a lot better. >> It it's like reprogramming the way that >> It it's like reprogramming the way that >> It it's like reprogramming the way that you think. And sometimes these negative you think. And sometimes these negative you think. And sometimes these negative thoughts can occur so automatically thoughts can occur so automatically thoughts can occur so automatically without any effort that you don't without any effort that you don't without any effort that you don't recognize them. Half the battle is being recognize them. Half the battle is being recognize them. Half the battle is being able to recognize and just pay attention able to recognize and just pay attention able to recognize and just pay attention to your thinking because your brain is to your thinking because your brain is to your thinking because your brain is like a computer program. We program it like a computer program. We program it like a computer program. We program it with specific code to interpret the with specific code to interpret the with specific code to interpret the world around us and ourselves and so on. world around us and ourselves and so on. world around us and ourselves and so on. But you have to then also be mindful of But you have to then also be mindful of But you have to then also be mindful of how you're thinking and be able to how you're thinking and be able to how you're thinking and be able to understand my emotions are not the understand my emotions are not the understand my emotions are not the result of things that are going on result of things that are going on result of things that are going on around me. It's the way I'm thinking. around me. It's the way I'm thinking. around me. It's the way I'm thinking. And then it's what you replace it with. And then it's what you replace it with. And then it's what you replace it with. And you can't replace it with a lie. And you can't replace it with a lie. And you can't replace it with a lie. >> You have to be genuine. It has to be >> You have to be genuine. It has to be >> You have to be genuine. It has to be realistic. And it has to be to some realistic. And it has to be to some realistic. And it has to be to some degree inspirational. And that's where degree inspirational. And that's where degree inspirational. And that's where we came up with the term grit. Genuine, we came up with the term grit. Genuine, we came up with the term grit. Genuine, realistic, and inspirational thoughts. realistic, and inspirational thoughts. realistic, and inspirational thoughts. >> Yeah. You counseledled me on that, too. >> Yeah. You counseledled me on that, too. >> Yeah. You counseledled me on that, too. I was going through a loop. Well, that I was going through a loop. Well, that I was going through a loop. Well, that that's it's very similar to what you see that's it's very similar to what you see that's it's very similar to what you see with professional athletes who can go with professional athletes who can go with professional athletes who can go out and um have a great game, but they out and um have a great game, but they out and um have a great game, but they get so focused in on things that they get so focused in on things that they get so focused in on things that they might have not have done well that all might have not have done well that all might have not have done well that all of a sudden they think their game was of a sudden they think their game was of a sudden they think their game was was horrible. Um and you have to go, was horrible. Um and you have to go, was horrible. Um and you have to go, wait, let's take a step back. Let's wait, let's take a step back. Let's wait, let's take a step back. Let's really look at this in a more really look at this in a more really look at this in a more meaningful, genuine, and realistic way.

meaningful, genuine, and realistic way. meaningful, genuine, and realistic way. And then they're like, oh, you're right. And then they're like, oh, you're right. And then they're like, oh, you're right. Okay. Now I I don't necessarily feel Okay. Now I I don't necessarily feel Okay. Now I I don't necessarily feel great, but I don't have the level of great, but I don't have the level of great, but I don't have the level of distress I had before. distress I had before. distress I had before. >> Craig, when you look back on all 30 >> Craig, when you look back on all 30 >> Craig, when you look back on all 30 years, um what have been some other years, um what have been some other years, um what have been some other surprisingly difficult moments for you? surprisingly difficult moments for you? surprisingly difficult moments for you? Um Um Um what's interesting is there there are so what's interesting is there there are so what's interesting is there there are so many you know early on I I mean there's many you know early on I I mean there's many you know early on I I mean there's so many um I mean last night I was up in so many um I mean last night I was up in so many um I mean last night I was up in 11:15 11:15 11:15 doing pastoral calls because there were doing pastoral calls because there were doing pastoral calls because there were they were necessary and there were two they were necessary and there were two they were necessary and there were two of them and so that the pastoral end of of them and so that the pastoral end of of them and so that the pastoral end of it um is always difficult and and I I it um is always difficult and and I I it um is always difficult and and I I want to say it's like hurts my feelings want to say it's like hurts my feelings want to say it's like hurts my feelings sometimes they'll say but you know sometimes they'll say but you know sometimes they'll say but you know Craig's a really good pastor going just Craig's a really good pastor going just Craig's a really good pastor going just because You see the other stuff. You because You see the other stuff. You because You see the other stuff. You don't see the pastoring stuff. That don't see the pastoring stuff. That don't see the pastoring stuff. That stuff's always there. Always there. stuff's always there. Always there. stuff's always there. Always there. Always there. Always. Always there. Always. Always there. Always. >> And you are a great pastor. >> And you are a great pastor. >> And you are a great pastor. >> No, thank you. But it's like, no, no, I >> No, thank you. But it's like, no, no, I >> No, thank you. But it's like, no, no, I am a pastor. I'm not I'm not a leader am a pastor. I'm not I'm not a leader am a pastor. I'm not I'm not a leader first. I'm a pastor first. I'm a pastor first. I'm a pastor first. I'm a pastor first. I'm a pastor first. I'm a pastor who leads, you know, and so that that's who leads, you know, and so that that's who leads, you know, and so that that's difficult. I mean, difficult. I mean, difficult. I mean, >> what makes pastoring difficult?

>> what makes pastoring difficult? >> what makes pastoring difficult? >> Well, you're I mean, Carrie, this week >> Well, you're I mean, Carrie, this week >> Well, you're I mean, Carrie, this week we had a we had a 19-year-old murdered we had a we had a 19-year-old murdered we had a we had a 19-year-old murdered shot by our boyfriend. you know, I've shot by our boyfriend. you know, I've shot by our boyfriend. you know, I've got another I got a I've got a staff got another I got a I've got a staff got another I got a I've got a staff member with a kid that's suicidal, member with a kid that's suicidal, member with a kid that's suicidal, attempted suicide. I mean, this is attempted suicide. I mean, this is attempted suicide. I mean, this is yesterday, you know, and so there's just yesterday, you know, and so there's just yesterday, you know, and so there's just there's that kind of stuff. Pastoring there's that kind of stuff. Pastoring there's that kind of stuff. Pastoring the staff alone is the staff alone is the staff alone is >> um Steu's in this room, flipped his >> um Steu's in this room, flipped his >> um Steu's in this room, flipped his truck five times and thank God he lived. truck five times and thank God he lived. truck five times and thank God he lived. You know, he's in this room. And so I'm You know, he's in this room. And so I'm You know, he's in this room. And so I'm involved in this those people and you involved in this those people and you involved in this those people and you got a thousand staff got a thousand staff got a thousand staff >> and then and then at the different >> and then and then at the different >> and then and then at the different campuses, you know, I can't reach them campuses, you know, I can't reach them campuses, you know, I can't reach them all, but when I find out about them, all, but when I find out about them, all, but when I find out about them, I'll call them. I', you know, send him a I'll call them. I', you know, send him a I'll call them. I', you know, send him a video and whatever, but and and it is video and whatever, but and and it is video and whatever, but and and it is just the pastoral burden is real. The um just the pastoral burden is real. The um just the pastoral burden is real. The um leading in this day is just complicated. leading in this day is just complicated. leading in this day is just complicated. If you're out seeing what people say If you're out seeing what people say If you're out seeing what people say about you online, it can be, you know, about you online, it can be, you know, about you online, it can be, you know, that at any level. You can have a church that at any level. You can have a church that at any level. You can have a church of 200 people and, of 200 people and, of 200 people and, you know, local news does a thing and you know, local news does a thing and you know, local news does a thing and you read the comments and it it'll hit you read the comments and it it'll hit you read the comments and it it'll hit you. So, you have to you have to stay you. So, you have to you have to stay you. So, you have to you have to stay focused on what's and I'll just be super focused on what's and I'll just be super focused on what's and I'll just be super super transparent with you because I super transparent with you because I super transparent with you because I care. I look back at that season when care. I look back at that season when care. I look back at that season when Dr. Chappelle was working with me. I'm Dr. Chappelle was working with me. I'm Dr. Chappelle was working with me. I'm going, who was that guy and how did I going, who was that guy and how did I going, who was that guy and how did I get there? And I'm a little embarrassed, get there? And I'm a little embarrassed, get there? And I'm a little embarrassed, but there's a way out. So there's but but there's a way out. So there's but but there's a way out. So there's but I'm thank thankful to be a way out.

I'm thank thankful to be a way out. I'm thank thankful to be a way out. There's still es and flows and and and I There's still es and flows and and and I There's still es and flows and and and I look at my journal and December when look at my journal and December when look at my journal and December when we're recording this is a difficult we're recording this is a difficult we're recording this is a difficult season for me historically based on the season for me historically based on the season for me historically based on the load and I think based on kind of the load and I think based on kind of the load and I think based on kind of the family demands and going into the new family demands and going into the new family demands and going into the new year it's just a harder time. So in this year it's just a harder time. So in this year it's just a harder time. So in this week I have been I felt like I lost a week I have been I felt like I lost a week I have been I felt like I lost a little altitude and got knocked off little altitude and got knocked off little altitude and got knocked off track. So what I have to do is I track. So what I have to do is I track. So what I have to do is I correct, I add power and I renew my correct, I add power and I renew my correct, I add power and I renew my mind. And so I'm focusing on those those mind. And so I'm focusing on those those mind. And so I'm focusing on those those things. And it's it doesn't mean like things. And it's it doesn't mean like things. And it's it doesn't mean like you're you're bad and now you're good. you're you're bad and now you're good. you're you're bad and now you're good. Know it's like you're bad and you're Know it's like you're bad and you're Know it's like you're bad and you're getting better. You're good and you had getting better. You're good and you had getting better. You're good and you had a setback. It's uh you're constantly a setback. It's uh you're constantly a setback. It's uh you're constantly making adjustments non-stop, non-stop, making adjustments non-stop, non-stop, making adjustments non-stop, non-stop, non-stop. Um tweaking, praying, seeking non-stop. Um tweaking, praying, seeking non-stop. Um tweaking, praying, seeking God. And that's part of the process. And God. And that's part of the process. And God. And that's part of the process. And that's actually the beauty of it is when that's actually the beauty of it is when that's actually the beauty of it is when you understand where you're vulnerable you understand where you're vulnerable you understand where you're vulnerable and you understand what helps you be and you understand what helps you be and you understand what helps you be successful and what's the difference and successful and what's the difference and successful and what's the difference and what's the tools to get you there. Then what's the tools to get you there. Then what's the tools to get you there. Then you almost counsel yourself which is you almost counsel yourself which is you almost counsel yourself which is kind of what I do a lot. I don't have to kind of what I do a lot. I don't have to kind of what I do a lot. I don't have to I don't do I people say do you still I don't do I people say do you still I don't do I people say do you still call Dr. Se only call Dr. Se only call Dr. Se only >> to catch up. We haven't talked >> to catch up. We haven't talked >> to catch up. We haven't talked serious anything in years but to see how serious anything in years but to see how serious anything in years but to see how he's doing to see how I can help him to he's doing to see how I can help him to he's doing to see how I can help him to talk about the church more that kind of talk about the church more that kind of talk about the church more that kind of thing. um because I have the tools and thing. um because I have the tools and thing. um because I have the tools and the people and know how to work a plan.

the people and know how to work a plan. the people and know how to work a plan. It's like it's like God's word. When you It's like it's like God's word. When you It's like it's like God's word. When you know his word and you live his word, it know his word and you live his word, it know his word and you live his word, it tends to please God. And so that's you tends to please God. And so that's you tends to please God. And so that's you want to get the tools and the people in want to get the tools and the people in want to get the tools and the people in your life to do it. So I'm not always your life to do it. So I'm not always your life to do it. So I'm not always great, great, great, >> but I always have the tools to realign >> but I always have the tools to realign >> but I always have the tools to realign and regain the altitude and have to do and regain the altitude and have to do and regain the altitude and have to do it. Then you have to actually do it like it. Then you have to actually do it like it. Then you have to actually do it like you need to get on that bike and you need to get on that bike and you need to get on that bike and >> Yeah. I'm going to get on that bike, >> Yeah. I'm going to get on that bike, >> Yeah. I'm going to get on that bike, throw it on the trainer. throw it on the trainer. throw it on the trainer. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, you've said this a few times in our >> So, you've said this a few times in our >> So, you've said this a few times in our time together where you're like, I look time together where you're like, I look time together where you're like, I look back on that guy and I'm like, who are back on that guy and I'm like, who are back on that guy and I'm like, who are you? you? you? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Two things. Number one, what do you >> Two things. Number one, what do you >> Two things. Number one, what do you notice about him? notice about him? notice about him? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Number two, what would you say to him >> Number two, what would you say to him >> Number two, what would you say to him sitting where you are now? sitting where you are now? sitting where you are now? >> Well, first of all, I'd say I'd say >> Well, first of all, I'd say I'd say >> Well, first of all, I'd say I'd say great job because I'm I mean like great great job because I'm I mean like great great job because I'm I mean like great work. You know, you did it. You work. You know, you did it. You work. You know, you did it. You listened. You made changes. Like really listened. You made changes. Like really listened. You made changes. Like really good job. I'd say that. And then two is good job. I'd say that. And then two is good job. I'd say that. And then two is I'd say don't get there again, I'd say don't get there again, I'd say don't get there again, >> you know. Yeah. And if you, you know, if >> you know. Yeah. And if you, you know, if >> you know. Yeah. And if you, you know, if you gave me going back to him before, I you gave me going back to him before, I you gave me going back to him before, I would have said, um, ask for help and would have said, um, ask for help and would have said, um, ask for help and receive help earlier. Not just ask for receive help earlier. Not just ask for receive help earlier. Not just ask for it, but receive it, you know, and be it, but receive it, you know, and be it, but receive it, you know, and be bolder, be louder.

bolder, be louder. bolder, be louder. How do you know you're not going back to How do you know you're not going back to How do you know you're not going back to that ditch? I have some burnout was 20 that ditch? I have some burnout was 20 that ditch? I have some burnout was 20 years ago this year for me. years ago this year for me. years ago this year for me. >> And I have like markers along the way I >> And I have like markers along the way I >> And I have like markers along the way I won't get into where I'm like, okay, I won't get into where I'm like, okay, I won't get into where I'm like, okay, I know this isn't burnout. I know this know this isn't burnout. I know this know this isn't burnout. I know this isn't burnout. How do you know you're isn't burnout. How do you know you're isn't burnout. How do you know you're not heading back to the wall where not heading back to the wall where not heading back to the wall where you're like, "Oh, ministry is going to you're like, "Oh, ministry is going to you're like, "Oh, ministry is going to kill me." kill me." kill me." >> Yeah. Well, for one thing, I don't I >> Yeah. Well, for one thing, I don't I >> Yeah. Well, for one thing, I don't I don't like talking a lot about burnout don't like talking a lot about burnout don't like talking a lot about burnout and depression, things like that. It and depression, things like that. It and depression, things like that. It seems to me there's almost, you know, I seems to me there's almost, you know, I seems to me there's almost, you know, I was hesitant to write a book on those was hesitant to write a book on those was hesitant to write a book on those things because if you talk about them things because if you talk about them things because if you talk about them too much, you're almost like prophesying too much, you're almost like prophesying too much, you're almost like prophesying them into being. Like, are you them into being. Like, are you them into being. Like, are you depressed? You look, you know, I didn't depressed? You look, you know, I didn't depressed? You look, you know, I didn't think so. Maybe I am. I guess, you know, think so. Maybe I am. I guess, you know, think so. Maybe I am. I guess, you know, and it's almost trendy to have mental and it's almost trendy to have mental and it's almost trendy to have mental health issues. and and and I won't say health issues. and and and I won't say health issues. and and and I won't say that because there are genuine that because there are genuine that because there are genuine heartbreaking very real, very um heartbreaking very real, very um heartbreaking very real, very um different mental health issues today as different mental health issues today as different mental health issues today as to 10 years ago. And so no doubt about to 10 years ago. And so no doubt about to 10 years ago. And so no doubt about that. But what we don't want to do is we that. But what we don't want to do is we that. But what we don't want to do is we don't want to stay in them and give perm don't want to stay in them and give perm don't want to stay in them and give perm people permission to almost like have 10 people permission to almost like have 10 people permission to almost like have 10 years of therapy. Like you really don't years of therapy. Like you really don't years of therapy. Like you really don't want 10 years of therapy, right? You want 10 years of therapy, right? You want 10 years of therapy, right? You want to you want to work on you want to want to you want to work on you want to want to you want to work on you want to get get out of it. And again, I forgot get get out of it. And again, I forgot get get out of it. And again, I forgot your question. I start rolling off. But your question. I start rolling off. But your question. I start rolling off. But >> yeah, what would you say to him? And and >> yeah, what would you say to him? And and >> yeah, what would you say to him? And and then what do you see?

then what do you see? then what do you see? >> Yeah. So Oh, how do you stay out of >> Yeah. So Oh, how do you stay out of >> Yeah. So Oh, how do you stay out of this? what what you're asking. this? what what you're asking. this? what what you're asking. >> Yeah. How do I say out? >> Yeah. How do I say out? >> Yeah. How do I say out? >> Yeah. And so I would say if there's >> Yeah. And so I would say if there's >> Yeah. And so I would say if there's trouble, I'm going to call Dr. C. But trouble, I'm going to call Dr. C. But trouble, I'm going to call Dr. C. But right now, I'm able to go to Amy. Bobby right now, I'm able to go to Amy. Bobby right now, I'm able to go to Amy. Bobby came in my office yesterday, sat down came in my office yesterday, sat down came in my office yesterday, sat down and said, "Hey, here's what I'm seeing. and said, "Hey, here's what I'm seeing. and said, "Hey, here's what I'm seeing. Here's what we need to do about going, Here's what we need to do about going, Here's what we need to do about going, "Okay, that's good advice." Same with "Okay, that's good advice." Same with "Okay, that's good advice." Same with Jen. She's like going, "Yeah, you're not Jen. She's like going, "Yeah, you're not Jen. She's like going, "Yeah, you're not going to do that." And so once the if going to do that." And so once the if going to do that." And so once the if the plane starts losing altitude, what I the plane starts losing altitude, what I the plane starts losing altitude, what I do is we're going to add the right power do is we're going to add the right power do is we're going to add the right power to it. And so we're now adding power. to it. And so we're now adding power. to it. And so we're now adding power. We're going to We're going to We're going to >> self-correcting. >> self-correcting. >> self-correcting. >> We're self-reing. >> We're self-reing. >> We're self-reing. >> And your self-awareness has probably >> And your self-awareness has probably >> And your self-awareness has probably really grown, too. really grown, too. really grown, too. >> Really? There. Yes. So, you recognize it >> Really? There. Yes. So, you recognize it >> Really? There. Yes. So, you recognize it earlier and you know what to do about earlier and you know what to do about earlier and you know what to do about it, but you just have to do it and and it, but you just have to do it and and it, but you just have to do it and and I'm not going back. I'm not going back. I'm not going back. >> What do you see in Craig from when you >> What do you see in Craig from when you >> What do you see in Craig from when you met him to today? met him to today? met him to today? >> Oh, a a lot of changes. You know, on the >> Oh, a a lot of changes. You know, on the >> Oh, a a lot of changes. You know, on the outside, I think that the per if if you outside, I think that the per if if you outside, I think that the per if if you weren't aware of all the stuff that was weren't aware of all the stuff that was weren't aware of all the stuff that was going on, you would see, oh my gosh, going on, you would see, oh my gosh, going on, you would see, oh my gosh, that guy has been performing that guy has been performing that guy has been performing exceptionally well for years and it's exceptionally well for years and it's exceptionally well for years and it's been amazing. [music] But inwardly, he's been amazing. [music] But inwardly, he's been amazing. [music] But inwardly, he's he's very different. Um, and I think he's very different. Um, and I think he's very different. Um, and I think inwardly he's different because not only inwardly he's different because not only inwardly he's different because not only are you more self-aware and um, but are you more self-aware and um, but are you more self-aware and um, but you're also more open to receiving you're also more open to receiving you're also more open to receiving feedback from the wingmen who are around feedback from the wingmen who are around feedback from the wingmen who are around you. And I think it's also where you you. And I think it's also where you you. And I think it's also where you recognize that recognize that recognize that mental health is not just a state of mental health is not just a state of mental health is not just a state of being that you achieve. It is a constant being that you achieve. It is a constant being that you achieve. It is a constant constant daily constant daily constant daily um, condition that you have to be aware um, condition that you have to be aware um, condition that you have to be aware of. Nobody ever gets to a point of of. Nobody ever gets to a point of of. Nobody ever gets to a point of thriving and they just stay there. no thriving and they just stay there. no thriving and they just stay there. no matter how successful they are, there matter how successful they are, there matter how successful they are, there are always going to be es and flows are always going to be es and flows are always going to be es and flows based upon the environment that you're

based upon the environment that you're based upon the environment that you're in. in. in. >> And [clears throat] so when we think >> And [clears throat] so when we think >> And [clears throat] so when we think about like our spiritual life, we got to about like our spiritual life, we got to about like our spiritual life, we got to have prayer, we have to have worship, we have prayer, we have to have worship, we have prayer, we have to have worship, we have to have meditation, and we do those have to have meditation, and we do those have to have meditation, and we do those daily in order to keep ourselves daily in order to keep ourselves daily in order to keep ourselves spiritually strong. There are things spiritually strong. There are things spiritually strong. There are things that that he's doing now daily that keep that that he's doing now daily that keep that that he's doing now daily that keep him mentally strong as well. And the him mentally strong as well. And the him mentally strong as well. And the other thing and I and I like what Craig other thing and I and I like what Craig other thing and I and I like what Craig had to say which is sometimes we can get had to say which is sometimes we can get had to say which is sometimes we can get so focused in on words like depression so focused in on words like depression so focused in on words like depression and burnout or pathology that they and burnout or pathology that they and burnout or pathology that they become self-fulfilling prophecies and become self-fulfilling prophecies and become self-fulfilling prophecies and that's all we see and that's all that we that's all we see and that's all that we that's all we see and that's all that we interpret. interpret. interpret. >> And when I look at Craig, when I look at >> And when I look at Craig, when I look at >> And when I look at Craig, when I look at you, I see here's a man who is you, I see here's a man who is you, I see here's a man who is experiencing at times very difficult experiencing at times very difficult experiencing at times very difficult emotions that are very powerful that if emotions that are very powerful that if emotions that are very powerful that if you don't have the right processes in you don't have the right processes in you don't have the right processes in place will get the best of you. Um but place will get the best of you. Um but place will get the best of you. Um but what you're going through is normal what you're going through is normal what you're going through is normal based upon abnormal conditions. based upon abnormal conditions. based upon abnormal conditions. >> Um and we have to understand that. The >> Um and we have to understand that. The >> Um and we have to understand that. The other piece is we want to embrace the other piece is we want to embrace the other piece is we want to embrace the pain in our life. We want to embrace the pain in our life. We want to embrace the pain in our life. We want to embrace the problems in our life because in my problems in our life because in my problems in our life because in my experience when I work with people I experience when I work with people I experience when I work with people I have never seen people grow and become have never seen people grow and become have never seen people grow and become greater versions of themselves without greater versions of themselves without greater versions of themselves without being on their knees first. M being on their knees first. M being on their knees first. M >> and when we we live in a culture today >> and when we we live in a culture today >> and when we we live in a culture today that says, man, if you're going through that says, man, if you're going through that says, man, if you're going through problems or trauma and you have issues, problems or trauma and you have issues, problems or trauma and you have issues, therefore you're a victim or it's bad.

therefore you're a victim or it's bad. therefore you're a victim or it's bad. >> No, we want to embrace that because >> No, we want to embrace that because >> No, we want to embrace that because those are the things that actually make those are the things that actually make those are the things that actually make us better. us better. us better. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Does that make sense? >> Does that make sense? >> Does that make sense? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and I want to say too like the >> Yeah. And and I want to say too like the >> Yeah. And and I want to say too like the leaders are listing here, a big leaders are listing here, a big leaders are listing here, a big percentage of them would be um percentage of them would be um percentage of them would be um facing unusual challenges. Meaning if facing unusual challenges. Meaning if facing unusual challenges. Meaning if you have 10 employees or 100 employees, you have 10 employees or 100 employees, you have 10 employees or 100 employees, if you have 100, you have you have 10 if you have 100, you have you have 10 if you have 100, you have you have 10 times the potential challenges and 10 times the potential challenges and 10 times the potential challenges and 10 times the opportunities. So there's but times the opportunities. So there's but times the opportunities. So there's but and so if you do face unusual and so if you do face unusual and so if you do face unusual challenges, you you actually want to challenges, you you actually want to challenges, you you actually want to call it that and and then you have to call it that and and then you have to call it that and and then you have to have you have to take an unusually have you have to take an unusually have you have to take an unusually extreme approach at times to to deal extreme approach at times to to deal extreme approach at times to to deal with it. Give yourself permission to do with it. Give yourself permission to do with it. Give yourself permission to do that. With Dr. C, what he told me what I that. With Dr. C, what he told me what I that. With Dr. C, what he told me what I interviewed a couple of guys to work interviewed a couple of guys to work interviewed a couple of guys to work with and he said, "I'm not going to try with and he said, "I'm not going to try with and he said, "I'm not going to try to change you. I'm going to try to help to change you. I'm going to try to help to change you. I'm going to try to help make you better at being you. And that make you better at being you. And that make you better at being you. And that was helpful. What a lot of times people was helpful. What a lot of times people was helpful. What a lot of times people think I need to undo who I am and become think I need to undo who I am and become think I need to undo who I am and become someone else. You don't need to do that. someone else. You don't need to do that. someone else. You don't need to do that. >> You're very good at that. >> You're very good at that. >> You're very good at that. >> Extreme qualities make people extremely >> Extreme qualities make people extremely >> Extreme qualities make people extremely successful and it makes them extremely successful and it makes them extremely successful and it makes them extremely dangerous to themselves. So you dangerous to themselves. So you dangerous to themselves. So you [laughter] you want to take those [laughter] you want to take those [laughter] you want to take those extremes and you want to learn how to extremes and you want to learn how to extremes and you want to learn how to use them for the good and manage them so use them for the good and manage them so use them for the good and manage them so they don't hurt you.

they don't hurt you. they don't hurt you. >> But don't don't don't lose extremes. >> But don't don't don't lose extremes. >> But don't don't don't lose extremes. Extremes make for extreme good results. Extremes make for extreme good results. Extremes make for extreme good results. um you've taught on that. So I want us um you've taught on that. So I want us um you've taught on that. So I want us to think through everybody watching this to think through everybody watching this to think through everybody watching this and Craig, you know, you have just so and Craig, you know, you have just so and Craig, you know, you have just so many people who listen to watch your many people who listen to watch your many people who listen to watch your leadership podcast. You probably hear leadership podcast. You probably hear leadership podcast. You probably hear from pastors every day. You're pretty from pastors every day. You're pretty from pastors every day. You're pretty connected in the church space. What connected in the church space. What connected in the church space. What advice do you have for leaders who are advice do you have for leaders who are advice do you have for leaders who are watching listening to this who might watching listening to this who might watching listening to this who might say, "I want to do this for 30 years and say, "I want to do this for 30 years and say, "I want to do this for 30 years and I want to come out strong." I mean, you I want to come out strong." I mean, you I want to come out strong." I mean, you and I have joked when I step back after and I have joked when I step back after and I have joked when I step back after 20 years of leading a church, somebody 20 years of leading a church, somebody 20 years of leading a church, somebody said to me, and I can't remember who it said to me, and I can't remember who it said to me, and I can't remember who it was, but it's like, "Congrats on 20 was, but it's like, "Congrats on 20 was, but it's like, "Congrats on 20 years without a scandal." And I'm like, years without a scandal." And I'm like, years without a scandal." And I'm like, "How did that become a "How did that become a "How did that become a >> like category? It shouldn't be." And >> like category? It shouldn't be." And >> like category? It shouldn't be." And well, congrats on 30 years, Craig. And well, congrats on 30 years, Craig. And well, congrats on 30 years, Craig. And you know, I'd say you're 30 years with you know, I'd say you're 30 years with you know, I'd say you're 30 years with your foot on the gas, not on the brakes. your foot on the gas, not on the brakes. your foot on the gas, not on the brakes. >> If if a leader is trying to figure out, >> If if a leader is trying to figure out, >> If if a leader is trying to figure out, you know, what what word would you have you know, what what word would you have you know, what what word would you have for them? Um, it would be hard to say in for them? Um, it would be hard to say in for them? Um, it would be hard to say in a couple of minutes, but I I would say a couple of minutes, but I I would say a couple of minutes, but I I would say um you you know, you want to be where um you you know, you want to be where um you you know, you want to be where you're called. That matters. It matters you're called. That matters. It matters you're called. That matters. It matters a lot. You want to um have faith and a lot. You want to um have faith and a lot. You want to um have faith and humility. You want to have faith to humility. You want to have faith to humility. You want to have faith to believe from war, but humility that it's believe from war, but humility that it's believe from war, but humility that it's not all about you. You want to you have not all about you. You want to you have not all about you. You want to you have to invest in what takes. You have to to invest in what takes. You have to to invest in what takes. You have to invest in your home to have anything invest in your home to have anything invest in your home to have anything outside your home matter and be outside your home matter and be outside your home matter and be sustainable. And so, I would not be here sustainable. And so, I would not be here sustainable. And so, I would not be here today without my marriage to Amy. and today without my marriage to Amy. and today without my marriage to Amy. and and it's such an important part.

and it's such an important part. and it's such an important part. >> Um, and if I had all the success out in >> Um, and if I had all the success out in >> Um, and if I had all the success out in in ministry or business and my kids were in ministry or business and my kids were in ministry or business and my kids were a wreck, I would be miserable. And so, a wreck, I would be miserable. And so, a wreck, I would be miserable. And so, making your home your first win matters making your home your first win matters making your home your first win matters a lot. Having the right people around a lot. Having the right people around a lot. Having the right people around you is indescribably important. It's you is indescribably important. It's you is indescribably important. It's like, this place is not great because of like, this place is not great because of like, this place is not great because of me. This place is great because of me. This place is great because of me. This place is great because of great, God-honoring people. Period. great, God-honoring people. Period. great, God-honoring people. Period. Hands down. No doubt about it. Hands down. No doubt about it. Hands down. No doubt about it. um being honest about where you're um being honest about where you're um being honest about where you're vulnerable. Pastors get in trouble when vulnerable. Pastors get in trouble when vulnerable. Pastors get in trouble when they're not. You have to be like I've they're not. You have to be like I've they're not. You have to be like I've been really honest about vulnerabilities been really honest about vulnerabilities been really honest about vulnerabilities and sometimes people say that's a little and sometimes people say that's a little and sometimes people say that's a little too honest but but you know it's like too honest but but you know it's like too honest but but you know it's like when you are honest there's nothing to when you are honest there's nothing to when you are honest there's nothing to hide behind and you might you set the hide behind and you might you set the hide behind and you might you set the the parameters up to keep yourself safe the parameters up to keep yourself safe the parameters up to keep yourself safe you have to do that or or um you'll you have to do that or or um you'll you have to do that or or um you'll fail. You have to have people that you fail. You have to have people that you fail. You have to have people that you listen to and then then you got you listen to and then then you got you listen to and then then you got you don't go alone. you have a team of don't go alone. you have a team of don't go alone. you have a team of people [snorts] um and they're with you people [snorts] um and they're with you people [snorts] um and they're with you and then it's doable and and then along and then it's doable and and then along and then it's doable and and then along the way if you can kind of keep enjoying the way if you can kind of keep enjoying the way if you can kind of keep enjoying it is pretty special because we we say it is pretty special because we we say it is pretty special because we we say we're living in the good old days right we're living in the good old days right we're living in the good old days right now now now >> and we really are.

>> and we really are. >> and we really are. >> Yeah. How do you keep it enjoyable >> Yeah. How do you keep it enjoyable >> Yeah. How do you keep it enjoyable >> like ministry? We talked a lot about >> like ministry? We talked a lot about >> like ministry? We talked a lot about your life but let's talk about ministry. your life but let's talk about ministry. your life but let's talk about ministry. There are sometimes it's not. There's There are sometimes it's not. There's There are sometimes it's not. There's some parts that are just really hard. some parts that are just really hard. some parts that are just really hard. But but you just kind of like like Mad But but you just kind of like like Mad But but you just kind of like like Mad Dog's in here today and well, first of Dog's in here today and well, first of Dog's in here today and well, first of all, it's enjoyable and everyone has all, it's enjoyable and everyone has all, it's enjoyable and everyone has nicknames. That's just what it's funny. nicknames. That's just what it's funny. nicknames. That's just what it's funny. I've met a lot of your team today. They I've met a lot of your team today. They I've met a lot of your team today. They all have all have all have >> to me that's just it's just a thing. And >> to me that's just it's just a thing. And >> to me that's just it's just a thing. And uh Mad Dog, we're celebrating his 25 uh Mad Dog, we're celebrating his 25 uh Mad Dog, we're celebrating his 25 year anniversary today. That's fun, man. year anniversary today. That's fun, man. year anniversary today. That's fun, man. Congrats. Congrats. Congrats. >> And and there might be physical nudging >> And and there might be physical nudging >> And and there might be physical nudging and high fives and because that's just and high fives and because that's just and high fives and because that's just just a part of it. So I just I think just a part of it. So I just I think just a part of it. So I just I think doing it with people you love. I've been doing it with people you love. I've been doing it with people you love. I've been blessed to have teams that have been blessed to have teams that have been blessed to have teams that have been around for a long time [music] and that around for a long time [music] and that around for a long time [music] and that just that is just that is just that is >> we were at a breakfast a couple weeks >> we were at a breakfast a couple weeks >> we were at a breakfast a couple weeks ago and you had your inner directional ago and you had your inner directional ago and you had your inner directional leadership team leadership team leadership team >> been with me for 27 years >> been with me for 27 years >> been with me for 27 years >> and the chemistry in that room, the >> and the chemistry in that room, the >> and the chemistry in that room, the honesty in that room was pretty honesty in that room was pretty honesty in that room was pretty impressive. impressive. impressive. >> Thanks. Yeah. Special people. >> Thanks. Yeah. Special people. >> Thanks. Yeah. Special people. >> Yeah, it really is. I find the longer >> Yeah, it really is. I find the longer >> Yeah, it really is. I find the longer I'm at it, the more I enjoy working with I'm at it, the more I enjoy working with I'm at it, the more I enjoy working with the people I've known for 20 25 years.

the people I've known for 20 25 years. the people I've known for 20 25 years. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> It's great. >> It's great. >> It's great. >> Dr. What would you say to leaders who >> Dr. What would you say to leaders who >> Dr. What would you say to leaders who are listening who might be hitting a are listening who might be hitting a are listening who might be hitting a wall or wondering how do I finish? Well, wall or wondering how do I finish? Well, wall or wondering how do I finish? Well, what are what are a couple of practical what are what are a couple of practical what are what are a couple of practical steps that they could take? steps that they could take? steps that they could take? >> Yeah. So, um I think being uh and when >> Yeah. So, um I think being uh and when >> Yeah. So, um I think being uh and when you talk about leaders, I want to make you talk about leaders, I want to make you talk about leaders, I want to make sure I I understand this. You're talking sure I I understand this. You're talking sure I I understand this. You're talking >> Well, maybe there's a difference between >> Well, maybe there's a difference between >> Well, maybe there's a difference between pastors, I don't know that we have too pastors, I don't know that we have too pastors, I don't know that we have too many professional athletes watching. many professional athletes watching. many professional athletes watching. >> Yeah. I was more like, are you business >> Yeah. I was more like, are you business >> Yeah. I was more like, are you business leaders or pastoral leaders? leaders or pastoral leaders? leaders or pastoral leaders? >> Well, let's start with pastors. So from >> Well, let's start with pastors. So from >> Well, let's start with pastors. So from a pastoral leadership standpoint, a pastoral leadership standpoint, a pastoral leadership standpoint, there's a lot of pastors out there that there's a lot of pastors out there that there's a lot of pastors out there that I know are struggling. They're I know are struggling. They're I know are struggling. They're suffering, but they are embarrassed suffering, but they are embarrassed suffering, but they are embarrassed because they oftentimes think, "Well, I because they oftentimes think, "Well, I because they oftentimes think, "Well, I should be better. I'm in a position of should be better. I'm in a position of should be better. I'm in a position of moral authority." And I counsel other moral authority." And I counsel other moral authority." And I counsel other people in terms of navigating bottle, people in terms of navigating bottle, people in terms of navigating bottle, wallet, zipper, temperament, and now I'm wallet, zipper, temperament, and now I'm wallet, zipper, temperament, and now I'm struggling. What's wrong with me? Well, struggling. What's wrong with me? Well, struggling. What's wrong with me? Well, the first thing is I want to let them the first thing is I want to let them the first thing is I want to let them know is you're a human being, and only know is you're a human being, and only know is you're a human being, and only one perfect person walked this earth. one perfect person walked this earth. one perfect person walked this earth. It's not me, and it's not you. And so, It's not me, and it's not you. And so, It's not me, and it's not you. And so, as a result, you will struggle. And some as a result, you will struggle. And some as a result, you will struggle. And some of the greatest biblical figures that we of the greatest biblical figures that we of the greatest biblical figures that we look up to that have been phenomenal look up to that have been phenomenal look up to that have been phenomenal struggled. David, who was a man who was struggled. David, who was a man who was struggled. David, who was a man who was described after God's own heart, described after God's own heart, described after God's own heart, committed adultery and murder.

committed adultery and murder. committed adultery and murder. >> And I look at over pastors going, "Are >> And I look at over pastors going, "Are >> And I look at over pastors going, "Are you any better than David?" you any better than David?" you any better than David?" >> And if you're not, well, guess what? >> And if you're not, well, guess what? >> And if you're not, well, guess what? You're struggling with something as You're struggling with something as You're struggling with something as well, too. So, the first thing is you well, too. So, the first thing is you well, too. So, the first thing is you got to be honest. You got to be open. got to be honest. You got to be open. got to be honest. You got to be open. >> The second thing is you got to choose >> The second thing is you got to choose >> The second thing is you got to choose the right people. You have to choose the the right people. You have to choose the the right people. You have to choose the right people to be able to share your right people to be able to share your right people to be able to share your thoughts with, to be transparent with, thoughts with, to be transparent with, thoughts with, to be transparent with, and then you have to understand that you and then you have to understand that you and then you have to understand that you have to be a journey of self-improvement have to be a journey of self-improvement have to be a journey of self-improvement and self-reflection continuously. Um, and self-reflection continuously. Um, and self-reflection continuously. Um, and what you're doing today that might and what you're doing today that might and what you're doing today that might have been effective a year ago or two have been effective a year ago or two have been effective a year ago or two years ago may not be effective today. years ago may not be effective today. years ago may not be effective today. >> Yeah, you're going to push me on that. >> Yeah, you're going to push me on that. >> Yeah, you're going to push me on that. And yeah, can we can we just talk And yeah, can we can we just talk And yeah, can we can we just talk specifically as we wrap up about specifically as we wrap up about specifically as we wrap up about Wingman? Yeah. Wingman? Yeah. Wingman? Yeah. >> So you were very fortunate that you had >> So you were very fortunate that you had >> So you were very fortunate that you had a group around you that you could act a group around you that you could act a group around you that you could act activate. I'm very fortunate in that I activate. I'm very fortunate in that I activate. I'm very fortunate in that I had some people around me I can had some people around me I can had some people around me I can activate. activate. activate. >> Pastors don't >> Pastors don't >> Pastors don't >> I know and that that's the reason I'm >> I know and that that's the reason I'm >> I know and that that's the reason I'm asking the question asking the question asking the question >> is cuz I called you after Craig >> is cuz I called you after Craig >> is cuz I called you after Craig recommended it recommended it recommended it >> and I'm like I don't have any like >> and I'm like I don't have any like >> and I'm like I don't have any like burning issue right now. Like my burning issue right now. Like my burning issue right now. Like my marriage is in a good place and I'm marriage is in a good place and I'm marriage is in a good place and I'm happy. I'm doing my dream job. But I happy. I'm doing my dream job. But I happy. I'm doing my dream job. But I just see so many guys 20 years older just see so many guys 20 years older just see so many guys 20 years older than me who have flamed out or, you than me who have flamed out or, you than me who have flamed out or, you know, had an affair or made a mistake know, had an affair or made a mistake know, had an affair or made a mistake and I don't want to be that guy. And and I don't want to be that guy. And and I don't want to be that guy. And you're like, it's wingman. Wingman. So you're like, it's wingman. Wingman. So you're like, it's wingman. Wingman. So what I did was I took that inner circle what I did was I took that inner circle what I did was I took that inner circle and I activated them and I activated them and I activated them >> to be more like you say in your face and >> to be more like you say in your face and >> to be more like you say in your face and tell me things I don't want to hear.

tell me things I don't want to hear. tell me things I don't want to hear. >> Yeah. You use language that helps you. >> Yeah. You use language that helps you. >> Yeah. You use language that helps you. Like for some it would be like an Like for some it would be like an Like for some it would be like an executive board of directors like these executive board of directors like these executive board of directors like these are the this is the board or these are are the this is the board or these are are the this is the board or these are my these are my coaches or whatever my these are my coaches or whatever my these are my coaches or whatever language these are my wingmen but you language these are my wingmen but you language these are my wingmen but you need a team people around you need a team people around you need a team people around you >> you do >> you do >> you do >> what what would you say to the pastor >> what what would you say to the pastor >> what what would you say to the pastor who's like yeah the only people I know who's like yeah the only people I know who's like yeah the only people I know are in my church are people I'm hoping are in my church are people I'm hoping are in my church are people I'm hoping to reach where would they find a [music] to reach where would they find a [music] to reach where would they find a [music] wingman wingman wingman >> say that again >> say that again >> say that again >> well if the pastor because the the the >> well if the pastor because the the the >> well if the pastor because the the the thing that I get and Craig feel free to thing that I get and Craig feel free to thing that I get and Craig feel free to weigh in on this you know they're like weigh in on this you know they're like weigh in on this you know they're like well everybody either works for me or I well everybody either works for me or I well everybody either works for me or I work for them they're my board or it's work for them they're my board or it's work for them they're my board or it's the pastor across town. the pastor across town. the pastor across town. >> When they're a church member, how do I >> When they're a church member, how do I >> When they're a church member, how do I find a way? find a way? find a way? >> Yeah. Or or, you know, I have an >> Yeah. Or or, you know, I have an >> Yeah. Or or, you know, I have an unchurched friend, but I'm not going to unchurched friend, but I'm not going to unchurched friend, but I'm not going to unbburden on them about all my life unbburden on them about all my life unbburden on them about all my life problems cuz I'm trying to lead them to problems cuz I'm trying to lead them to problems cuz I'm trying to lead them to Jesus. So, they feel boxed in. Jesus. So, they feel boxed in. Jesus. So, they feel boxed in. >> Well, and and and that's a reality for >> Well, and and and that's a reality for >> Well, and and and that's a reality for many pastors. And even though they're many pastors. And even though they're many pastors. And even though they're surrounded by people all day long, um it surrounded by people all day long, um it surrounded by people all day long, um it can be very lonely place to be because can be very lonely place to be because can be very lonely place to be because you have to have people in your life you you have to have people in your life you you have to have people in your life you can be completely transparent with and can be completely transparent with and can be completely transparent with and to some degree even unfiltered. And so to some degree even unfiltered. And so to some degree even unfiltered. And so these finding really good wingmen means these finding really good wingmen means these finding really good wingmen means you have to of at times step outside of you have to of at times step outside of you have to of at times step outside of that church circle that you're in and that church circle that you're in and that church circle that you're in and find people who you enjoy and you have a find people who you enjoy and you have a find people who you enjoy and you have a connection with that you have also some connection with that you have also some connection with that you have also some level of history and familiarity with level of history and familiarity with level of history and familiarity with but also who you trust and who are but also who you trust and who are but also who you trust and who are willing to provide you honest willing to provide you honest willing to provide you honest transparent feedback. but also people transparent feedback. but also people transparent feedback. but also people who will not necessarily shame you or who will not necessarily shame you or who will not necessarily shame you or humiliate you if you have struggled and

humiliate you if you have struggled and humiliate you if you have struggled and done something that you probably done something that you probably done something that you probably shouldn't be doing. Does that make shouldn't be doing. Does that make shouldn't be doing. Does that make sense? sense? sense? >> Yeah. I found it really helpful to have >> Yeah. I found it really helpful to have >> Yeah. I found it really helpful to have people who understand what I do people who understand what I do people who understand what I do >> and people who don't understand what I >> and people who don't understand what I >> and people who don't understand what I do. One of my best friends a medical do. One of my best friends a medical do. One of my best friends a medical doctor, you know. Another one is doctor, you know. Another one is doctor, you know. Another one is somebody who completely understands me somebody who completely understands me somebody who completely understands me but he lives a thousand miles away and but he lives a thousand miles away and but he lives a thousand miles away and we text every morning. Then I got a we text every morning. Then I got a we text every morning. Then I got a couple of other guys locally and I find couple of other guys locally and I find couple of other guys locally and I find that that triumvirate or and they all that that triumvirate or and they all that that triumvirate or and they all kind of know each other but you know kind of know each other but you know kind of know each other but you know that that three-legged stool or you know that that three-legged stool or you know that that three-legged stool or you know sometimes there's a fourth really makes sometimes there's a fourth really makes sometimes there's a fourth really makes a difference. Craig, how about you? Any a difference. Craig, how about you? Any a difference. Craig, how about you? Any final words on who to look for final words on who to look for final words on who to look for >> for the pastor who's feeling >> for the pastor who's feeling >> for the pastor who's feeling >> I think for a pastor I think to have >> I think for a pastor I think to have >> I think for a pastor I think to have team members that are empowered to to team members that are empowered to to team members that are empowered to to speak direct to you matters so much. I speak direct to you matters so much. I speak direct to you matters so much. I like what Andy Stand said. He said, um, like what Andy Stand said. He said, um, like what Andy Stand said. He said, um, if you don't listen to people around if you don't listen to people around if you don't listen to people around you, he said it better than this, but you, he said it better than this, but you, he said it better than this, but eventually you'll be surrounded by eventually you'll be surrounded by eventually you'll be surrounded by people who have nothing to say. people who have nothing to say. people who have nothing to say. >> Exactly. Yeah. So, so that matters. And >> Exactly. Yeah. So, so that matters. And >> Exactly. Yeah. So, so that matters. And so, can you be friends with people on so, can you be friends with people on so, can you be friends with people on your team? And the answer is, your team? And the answer is, your team? And the answer is, >> dear God, I hope so. I mean, because you >> dear God, I hope so. I mean, because you >> dear God, I hope so. I mean, because you need it. Like, I need it. And so, uh, I need it. Like, I need it. And so, uh, I need it. Like, I need it. And so, uh, I was talking to a mutual friend. Okay, was talking to a mutual friend. Okay, was talking to a mutual friend. Okay, this is interesting. One more question.

this is interesting. One more question. this is interesting. One more question. We got a couple more minutes. We got a couple more minutes. We got a couple more minutes. >> So, Nashville, you know who I'm talking >> So, Nashville, you know who I'm talking >> So, Nashville, you know who I'm talking about. Okay. and he was saying we were about. Okay. and he was saying we were about. Okay. and he was saying we were there Noah shout out just I don't think there Noah shout out just I don't think there Noah shout out just I don't think this secret but he's like I'm going this secret but he's like I'm going this secret but he's like I'm going allin on friendships with my team and I allin on friendships with my team and I allin on friendships with my team and I said I think that's a great idea. said I think that's a great idea. said I think that's a great idea. >> What do you think about friendships with >> What do you think about friendships with >> What do you think about friendships with people you work with? people you work with? people you work with? >> Well, I think it's I think it's >> Well, I think it's I think it's >> Well, I think it's I think it's essential. It is essential and and then essential. It is essential and and then essential. It is essential and and then sometime if you do it for 30 years you sometime if you do it for 30 years you sometime if you do it for 30 years you might have to let a friend go and it's might have to let a friend go and it's might have to let a friend go and it's horrific, you know. So horrific, you know. So horrific, you know. So >> Well, that's what I said. It's better to >> Well, that's what I said. It's better to >> Well, that's what I said. It's better to have your heart broken than to never have your heart broken than to never have your heart broken than to never have gone there. and to never care about have gone there. and to never care about have gone there. and to never care about people. Yeah. And and that's one of the people. Yeah. And and that's one of the people. Yeah. And and that's one of the horrific parts about it, you know, in horrific parts about it, you know, in horrific parts about it, you know, in over 30 years of it, I had to let people over 30 years of it, I had to let people over 30 years of it, I had to let people go that um you know, I loved deeply. And go that um you know, I loved deeply. And go that um you know, I loved deeply. And to this day, that's one of the hardest to this day, that's one of the hardest to this day, that's one of the hardest parts of it is and and with you know, parts of it is and and with you know, parts of it is and and with you know, with a thousand staff members, you know, with a thousand staff members, you know, with a thousand staff members, you know, sometimes you turn sometimes some you sometimes you turn sometimes some you sometimes you turn sometimes some you someone down line might not be as kind someone down line might not be as kind someone down line might not be as kind in a dismissal. And so you you want to in a dismissal. And so you you want to in a dismissal. And so you you want to treat people well and you don't always treat people well and you don't always treat people well and you don't always get it right. And those things wreck get it right. And those things wreck get it right. And those things wreck you. We've had friends that were part of you. We've had friends that were part of you. We've had friends that were part of our church and just broke my heart. It our church and just broke my heart. It our church and just broke my heart. It still hurts decades later, still hurts decades later, still hurts decades later, >> but I'm glad we had those relationships.

>> but I'm glad we had those relationships. >> but I'm glad we had those relationships. I'm glad we tried because otherwise you I'm glad we tried because otherwise you I'm glad we tried because otherwise you sit there with a steel shell. sit there with a steel shell. sit there with a steel shell. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And die inside. >> And die inside. >> And die inside. >> Yeah. But you you you I think you have >> Yeah. But you you you I think you have >> Yeah. But you you you I think you have to take you have to take the risk. And to take you have to take the risk. And to take you have to take the risk. And then the same is true with church then the same is true with church then the same is true with church members. There's a lot of pastors think members. There's a lot of pastors think members. There's a lot of pastors think you can't be friends with church you can't be friends with church you can't be friends with church members. Yeah. And I I do know there are members. Yeah. And I I do know there are members. Yeah. And I I do know there are challenges, but I just had dinner last challenges, but I just had dinner last challenges, but I just had dinner last night with a 28-year church member, night with a 28-year church member, night with a 28-year church member, friend, and then another one who were friend, and then another one who were friend, and then another one who were friends before the church. And so you friends before the church. And so you friends before the church. And so you can and is it risky? Yes. And do can and is it risky? Yes. And do can and is it risky? Yes. And do sometimes you get your feelings hurt, sometimes you get your feelings hurt, sometimes you get your feelings hurt, they get your their feelings hurt? Yes. they get your their feelings hurt? Yes. they get your their feelings hurt? Yes. But that's life, you know, and that's to But that's life, you know, and that's to But that's life, you know, and that's to to do ministry to say we we love people to do ministry to say we we love people to do ministry to say we we love people and only love them by serving them and and only love them by serving them and and only love them by serving them and not allow them to love and serve you not allow them to love and serve you not allow them to love and serve you back is not really love. So, it's a risk back is not really love. So, it's a risk back is not really love. So, it's a risk that that you you you have to take. And that that you you you have to take. And that that you you you have to take. And will it backfire sometimes? And yes. And will it backfire sometimes? And yes. And will it backfire sometimes? And yes. And will you regret it sometimes? Yes. And will you regret it sometimes? Yes. And will you regret it sometimes? Yes. And can you do life without it? No, you can you do life without it? No, you can you do life without it? No, you cannot. cannot. cannot. >> This has been so great. The new book, I >> This has been so great. The new book, I >> This has been so great. The new book, I think we got a copy here, is called think we got a copy here, is called think we got a copy here, is called Healing Your Hurting Mind. Craig Healing Your Hurting Mind. Craig Healing Your Hurting Mind. Craig Rashelle and Dr. Wayne Chappelle. Kind Rashelle and Dr. Wayne Chappelle. Kind Rashelle and Dr. Wayne Chappelle. Kind of rhymes. That's the first time I've of rhymes. That's the first time I've of rhymes. That's the first time I've said it together. That's kind of nice.

said it together. That's kind of nice. said it together. That's kind of nice. So, it's out now. Anywhere you get So, it's out now. Anywhere you get So, it's out now. Anywhere you get books. and having been able to read an books. and having been able to read an books. and having been able to read an early copy, it's fantastic. And Craig, I early copy, it's fantastic. And Craig, I early copy, it's fantastic. And Craig, I just want to thank you. I think as the just want to thank you. I think as the just want to thank you. I think as the longer you've led, the more vulnerable longer you've led, the more vulnerable longer you've led, the more vulnerable you become. you become. you become. >> And your vulnerability and your honesty >> And your vulnerability and your honesty >> And your vulnerability and your honesty in books like this, in conversations in books like this, in conversations in books like this, in conversations like this, I think is leading the way like this, I think is leading the way like this, I think is leading the way for longevity in ministry and to help for longevity in ministry and to help for longevity in ministry and to help the rest of us realize, the rest of us realize, the rest of us realize, >> oh, >> oh, >> oh, >> we all struggle with this. >> we all struggle with this. >> we all struggle with this. >> Yeah. So, thank you, Dr. Chappelle. huge >> Yeah. So, thank you, Dr. Chappelle. huge >> Yeah. So, thank you, Dr. Chappelle. huge gift of your life to me and I know to gift of your life to me and I know to gift of your life to me and I know to the Greselle's. Um so if people want to the Greselle's. Um so if people want to the Greselle's. Um so if people want to get do you have a website or that kind get do you have a website or that kind get do you have a website or that kind of thing and we don't want to blow up of thing and we don't want to blow up of thing and we don't want to blow up your life. So if you want to like I'm your life. So if you want to like I'm your life. So if you want to like I'm sure you're going to get a lot of sure you're going to get a lot of sure you're going to get a lot of inbound. inbound. inbound. >> Well there's certainly room uh in there. >> Well there's certainly room uh in there. >> Well there's certainly room uh in there. Uh but if if if I'm hearing you Uh but if if if I'm hearing you Uh but if if if I'm hearing you correctly is like well how would correctly is like well how would correctly is like well how would somebody get a hold of me? somebody get a hold of me? somebody get a hold of me? >> Yeah. How would someone get? >> Yeah. How would someone get? >> Yeah. How would someone get? >> So I have a website scioptimal.com >> So I have a website scioptimal.com >> So I have a website scioptimal.com and it's a couple things. and it's a couple things. and it's a couple things. >> You better spell that. >> You better spell that. >> You better spell that. >> Oh SCOptimal. P S Y O P T I M A L I know >> Oh SCOptimal. P S Y O P T I M A L I know >> Oh SCOptimal. P S Y O P T I M A L I know I probably should have rethought about I probably should have rethought about I probably should have rethought about that [laughter] website.

that [laughter] website. that [laughter] website. >> I'm going to be a wingman. That's a bad >> I'm going to be a wingman. That's a bad >> I'm going to be a wingman. That's a bad website because it's optical. Come on. website because it's optical. Come on. website because it's optical. Come on. >> I love it. >> I love it. >> I love it. >> Call it drc.com. >> Call it drc.com. >> Call it drc.com. >> drc.com changes. >> drc.com changes. >> drc.com changes. >> You should buy this before the episode >> You should buy this before the episode >> You should buy this before the episode comes out. comes out. comes out. >> Yes, for sure. Um but you reach out to >> Yes, for sure. Um but you reach out to >> Yes, for sure. Um but you reach out to the website. It's pretty pretty simple. the website. It's pretty pretty simple. the website. It's pretty pretty simple. You can even actually Google my name and You can even actually Google my name and You can even actually Google my name and the the um website will come up. Um, the the um website will come up. Um, the the um website will come up. Um, just reach out to the website if if just reach out to the website if if just reach out to the website if if you're interested in me coming out to you're interested in me coming out to you're interested in me coming out to your organization and speaking because I your organization and speaking because I your organization and speaking because I consult with groups and I speak at consult with groups and I speak at consult with groups and I speak at churches and I speak at businesses. Um, churches and I speak at businesses. Um, churches and I speak at businesses. Um, I do take on a limited number of of I do take on a limited number of of I do take on a limited number of of business leaders uh and pastoral leaders business leaders uh and pastoral leaders business leaders uh and pastoral leaders each year. each year. each year. >> Uh, and so if you're really interested, >> Uh, and so if you're really interested, >> Uh, and so if you're really interested, you can also contact me through that you can also contact me through that you can also contact me through that website as well too. website as well too. website as well too. >> Scoptimal. And you have uh well the >> Scoptimal. And you have uh well the >> Scoptimal. And you have uh well the podcast I never miss an episode. podcast I never miss an episode. podcast I never miss an episode. >> Craig Relle Leadership Podcast uh.com. >> Craig Relle Leadership Podcast uh.com. >> Craig Relle Leadership Podcast uh.com. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> I'm doing all your stuff. Anything else >> I'm doing all your stuff. Anything else >> I'm doing all your stuff. Anything else you want to direct people to? you want to direct people to? you want to direct people to? >> Yeah, anywhere they want to go is I'm >> Yeah, anywhere they want to go is I'm >> Yeah, anywhere they want to go is I'm like glad they I I tell them to go to like glad they I I tell them to go to like glad they I I tell them to go to your content because um years ago before your content because um years ago before your content because um years ago before we knew each other, I was reading your we knew each other, I was reading your we knew each other, I was reading your stuff and and it added value to my life stuff and and it added value to my life stuff and and it added value to my life and I just I always tell myself you and I just I always tell myself you and I just I always tell myself you earned your way to the table with good earned your way to the table with good earned your way to the table with good content.

content. content. >> Well, thank you. It's a privilege to be >> Well, thank you. It's a privilege to be >> Well, thank you. It's a privilege to be at this table. Thank you both very much. at this table. Thank you both very much. at this table. Thank you both very much. And thanks to the crew. Mad Dog 25 And thanks to the crew. Mad Dog 25 And thanks to the crew. Mad Dog 25 years. [laughter] years. [laughter] years. [laughter] >> All right. Well, thanks so much for >> All right. Well, thanks so much for >> All right. Well, thanks so much for watching, listening to the Carrie Newhof watching, listening to the Carrie Newhof watching, listening to the Carrie Newhof Leership podcast. We've got everything Leership podcast. We've got everything Leership podcast. We've got everything in the show notes. You can find them, in the show notes. You can find them, in the show notes. You can find them, including SCOPAL and all the links to including SCOPAL and all the links to including SCOPAL and all the links to that at the art of that at the art of that at the art of leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. We got a lot of really fascinating We got a lot of really fascinating We got a lot of really fascinating episodes coming up. We have Carl Lent. episodes coming up. We have Carl Lent. episodes coming up. We have Carl Lent. We have well a whole lot more beyond We have well a whole lot more beyond We have well a whole lot more beyond that. But thank you so much for watching that. But thank you so much for watching that. But thank you so much for watching and listening. Hope our time together and listening. Hope our time together and listening. Hope our time together today has helped you identify and break today has helped you identify and break today has helped you identify and break maybe a personal growth barrier that maybe a personal growth barrier that maybe a personal growth barrier that you're facing. And if you enjoyed this you're facing. And if you enjoyed this you're facing. And if you enjoyed this show, one of the best things you could show, one of the best things you could show, one of the best things you could do is to share it with your team, maybe do is to share it with your team, maybe do is to share it with your team, maybe uh share it with a friend, and leave us uh share it with a friend, and leave us uh share it with a friend, and leave us a rating and review. We'll catch you on a rating and review. We'll catch you on a rating and review. We'll catch you on the next episode.