Leadership Lessons from Working at Facebook

so at the age of nine I tried to end my so at the age of nine I tried to end my life not even knowing what was on the life not even knowing what was on the life not even knowing what was on the other side of death but I just figured other side of death but I just figured other side of death but I just figured nine yeah yeah nine years old um what nine yeah yeah nine years old um what nine yeah yeah nine years old um what happened well I um I used to watch like happened well I um I used to watch like happened well I um I used to watch like scary films I was I was by myself quite scary films I was I was by myself quite scary films I was I was by myself quite a bit and I used to watch scary films a bit and I used to watch scary films a bit and I used to watch scary films and I remember seeing a movie where this and I remember seeing a movie where this and I remember seeing a movie where this woman took a knife um and she tried to woman took a knife um and she tried to woman took a knife um and she tried to Slit her wrists and she died and so I Slit her wrists and she died and so I Slit her wrists and she died and so I tried uh to do that but that was tried uh to do that but that was tried uh to do that but that was unsuccessful thank God welcome to the K unsuccessful thank God welcome to the K unsuccessful thank God welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube man newoff leadership podcast on YouTube man newoff leadership podcast on YouTube man I'm so glad you've joined us today we I'm so glad you've joined us today we I'm so glad you've joined us today we are going to talk about recovering from are going to talk about recovering from are going to talk about recovering from Early Childhood trauma also lessons in Early Childhood trauma also lessons in Early Childhood trauma also lessons in leadership from Facebook and meta and a leadership from Facebook and meta and a leadership from Facebook and meta and a whole lot more with my guest Nona Jones whole lot more with my guest Nona Jones whole lot more with my guest Nona Jones if you haven't subscribed yet please do if you haven't subscribed yet please do if you haven't subscribed yet please do today's episode is brought to you by today's episode is brought to you by today's episode is brought to you by subsplash you know understanding how to subsplash you know understanding how to subsplash you know understanding how to deepen engagement is the key to opening deepen engagement is the key to opening deepen engagement is the key to opening your Church's front door but also your Church's front door but also your Church's front door but also creating a community that makes people creating a community that makes people creating a community that makes people want to stay so if you want to empower want to stay so if you want to empower want to stay so if you want to empower your community with the platform made your community with the platform made your community with the platform made for church engagement simply go to for church engagement simply go to for church engagement simply go to subsplash docomo's Free Church pulse assessment docomo's Free Church pulse assessment will give you a crystal clear picture of will give you a crystal clear picture of will give you a crystal clear picture of how your people are doing and how how your people are doing and how how your people are doing and how healthy your church really is take the healthy your church really is take the healthy your church really is take the assessment for free at stateof thee assessment for free at stateof thee assessment for free at stateof thee church.com carry well I'm so glad you church.com carry well I'm so glad you church.com carry well I'm so glad you joined us and now let's get into my joined us and now let's get into my joined us and now let's get into my conversation with nona Jones Nona it's conversation with nona Jones Nona it's conversation with nona Jones Nona it's good to have you back on the podcast good to have you back on the podcast good to have you back on the podcast it's always good to be here Carrie thank it's always good to be here Carrie thank it's always good to be here Carrie thank you for having me yeah well I've known you for having me yeah well I've known you for having me yeah well I've known you for years but I did not know what

you for years but I did not know what you for years but I did not know what you recently shared about your childhood you recently shared about your childhood you recently shared about your childhood and I know we have a lot of leaders and I know we have a lot of leaders and I know we have a lot of leaders listening who've had very traumatic listening who've had very traumatic listening who've had very traumatic childhood experiences seems to be a childhood experiences seems to be a childhood experiences seems to be a pattern in leadership that a difficult pattern in leadership that a difficult pattern in leadership that a difficult childhood often propels you into childhood often propels you into childhood often propels you into leadership um can you tell us what leadership um can you tell us what leadership um can you tell us what happened in in your childhood I mean happened in in your childhood I mean happened in in your childhood I mean there's more than one or two things but there's more than one or two things but there's more than one or two things but do you mind sharing a little bit about do you mind sharing a little bit about do you mind sharing a little bit about your story yeah well I um um it's funny your story yeah well I um um it's funny your story yeah well I um um it's funny because when people ask me to describe because when people ask me to describe because when people ask me to describe myself the the best descriptor that I myself the the best descriptor that I myself the the best descriptor that I can give is that I'm a statistically can give is that I'm a statistically can give is that I'm a statistically improbable product of God's grace improbable product of God's grace improbable product of God's grace because you know the life that I live because you know the life that I live because you know the life that I live right now in no way um aligns with what right now in no way um aligns with what right now in no way um aligns with what should have happened to me uh to make a should have happened to me uh to make a should have happened to me uh to make a long story short I was uh born to a mom long story short I was uh born to a mom long story short I was uh born to a mom who did not want to have children um my who did not want to have children um my who did not want to have children um my dad um wanted to be a father they had dad um wanted to be a father they had dad um wanted to be a father they had been married for 13 years but uh when been married for 13 years but uh when been married for 13 years but uh when she found out she was pregnant with with she found out she was pregnant with with she found out she was pregnant with with me um she was angry about the situation me um she was angry about the situation me um she was angry about the situation my dad was EC ecstatic but about halfway my dad was EC ecstatic but about halfway my dad was EC ecstatic but about halfway through her pregnancy he started to have through her pregnancy he started to have through her pregnancy he started to have stomach pain and went to the doctor to stomach pain and went to the doctor to stomach pain and went to the doctor to get it diagnosed and uh they came back get it diagnosed and uh they came back get it diagnosed and uh they came back with a terminal cancer diagnosis and so with a terminal cancer diagnosis and so with a terminal cancer diagnosis and so um of course that was devastating for um of course that was devastating for um of course that was devastating for him but he lived until I was about him but he lived until I was about him but he lived until I was about almost two years old U when he passed almost two years old U when he passed almost two years old U when he passed away my mom um she met a string of men away my mom um she met a string of men away my mom um she met a string of men who came in and out of her life and my who came in and out of her life and my who came in and out of her life and my life and when she settled on a guy who life and when she settled on a guy who life and when she settled on a guy who became became her living boyfriend uh became became her living boyfriend uh became became her living boyfriend uh when I was about 5 years old he when I was about 5 years old he when I was about 5 years old he assaulted me and told me that I better

assaulted me and told me that I better assaulted me and told me that I better not tell my mom what happened that she'd not tell my mom what happened that she'd not tell my mom what happened that she'd get rid of me and so I kept it to myself get rid of me and so I kept it to myself get rid of me and so I kept it to myself for a couple of years and he was for a couple of years and he was for a couple of years and he was repeatedly abusing me during that time repeatedly abusing me during that time repeatedly abusing me during that time so it got to the point that I just I so it got to the point that I just I so it got to the point that I just I couldn't take it anymore and when I was couldn't take it anymore and when I was couldn't take it anymore and when I was about eight I worked up the courage to about eight I worked up the courage to about eight I worked up the courage to tell my mom what was happening and um tell my mom what was happening and um tell my mom what was happening and um she had him arrested and I thought the she had him arrested and I thought the she had him arrested and I thought the whole situation was over but um when he whole situation was over but um when he whole situation was over but um when he was released from jail she brought him was released from jail she brought him was released from jail she brought him back home and he started to abuse me back home and he started to abuse me back home and he started to abuse me again and to make that situation worse again and to make that situation worse again and to make that situation worse my mom became verbally and physically my mom became verbally and physically my mom became verbally and physically abusive to me so I was being abused in abusive to me so I was being abused in abusive to me so I was being abused in in various forms you know only child I in various forms you know only child I in various forms you know only child I didn't have any family around me um it didn't have any family around me um it didn't have any family around me um it was a very isolating experience and so I was a very isolating experience and so I was a very isolating experience and so I remember in elementary school I was remember in elementary school I was remember in elementary school I was labeled as a problem child because I was labeled as a problem child because I was labeled as a problem child because I was acting out in school I mean when you're acting out in school I mean when you're acting out in school I mean when you're you know eight years old and you're you know eight years old and you're you know eight years old and you're being abused in these ways you don't being abused in these ways you don't being abused in these ways you don't know how to cope so I was disruptive um know how to cope so I was disruptive um know how to cope so I was disruptive um I was not attentive in class my progress I was not attentive in class my progress I was not attentive in class my progress reports all say Nona is smart but reports all say Nona is smart but reports all say Nona is smart but disruptive Nona is smart but she talks disruptive Nona is smart but she talks disruptive Nona is smart but she talks too much and so um had a very just too much and so um had a very just too much and so um had a very just dysfunctional home situation we didn't dysfunctional home situation we didn't dysfunctional home situation we didn't you know go to church so there was you know go to church so there was you know go to church so there was really no kind of spiritual grounding really no kind of spiritual grounding really no kind of spiritual grounding for me at all so at the age of nine I for me at all so at the age of nine I for me at all so at the age of nine I tried to end my life not even knowing tried to end my life not even knowing tried to end my life not even knowing what was on the other side of death but what was on the other side of death but what was on the other side of death but I just figured nine yeah yeah nine years I just figured nine yeah yeah nine years I just figured nine yeah yeah nine years old um what happened well I um I used to

old um what happened well I um I used to old um what happened well I um I used to watch like scary films I was I was by watch like scary films I was I was by watch like scary films I was I was by myself quite a bit and I used to watch myself quite a bit and I used to watch myself quite a bit and I used to watch scary films and I remember seeing a scary films and I remember seeing a scary films and I remember seeing a movie where this woman took a knife um movie where this woman took a knife um movie where this woman took a knife um and she tried to Slit her wrists and she and she tried to Slit her wrists and she and she tried to Slit her wrists and she died and so I tried uh to do that but died and so I tried uh to do that but died and so I tried uh to do that but that was unsuccessful thank god um but that was unsuccessful thank god um but that was unsuccessful thank god um but the reason why I did it was just I I the reason why I did it was just I I the reason why I did it was just I I just it was so I was in so much pain just it was so I was in so much pain just it was so I was in so much pain like physically emotionally mentally all like physically emotionally mentally all like physically emotionally mentally all of it I just wanted it to end and it's of it I just wanted it to end and it's of it I just wanted it to end and it's it's crazy Carrie because like I have I it's crazy Carrie because like I have I it's crazy Carrie because like I have I have two sons they're 14 and 11 and I have two sons they're 14 and 11 and I have two sons they're 14 and 11 and I remember when both of them turned nine I remember when both of them turned nine I remember when both of them turned nine I remember looking at them and being like remember looking at them and being like remember looking at them and being like when I was your age I wanted to end my when I was your age I wanted to end my when I was your age I wanted to end my life and it's it's just it's life and it's it's just it's life and it's it's just it's incomprehensible now you know looking at incomprehensible now you know looking at incomprehensible now you know looking at it as a mom but yeah I I thought that it as a mom but yeah I I thought that it as a mom but yeah I I thought that death was the answer but thank God he death was the answer but thank God he death was the answer but thank God he did not agree and so fast forward to did not agree and so fast forward to did not agree and so fast forward to when I was 11 I tried again when I was 11 I tried again when I was 11 I tried again unsuccessfully but um shortly after that unsuccessfully but um shortly after that unsuccessfully but um shortly after that attempt I had a classmate invite me to attempt I had a classmate invite me to attempt I had a classmate invite me to church and this was in the sixth grade church and this was in the sixth grade church and this was in the sixth grade and the very first sermon I ever heard and the very first sermon I ever heard and the very first sermon I ever heard uh the Pastor said that God is a father uh the Pastor said that God is a father uh the Pastor said that God is a father to the fatherless and I remember when he to the fatherless and I remember when he to the fatherless and I remember when he said that I was thinking God is a father said that I was thinking God is a father said that I was thinking God is a father like if God is a father to the like if God is a father to the like if God is a father to the fatherless I don't have my father who is fatherless I don't have my father who is fatherless I don't have my father who is God God God so it became this moment where I was so it became this moment where I was so it became this moment where I was like hm I wonder who God is and I got to like hm I wonder who God is and I got to like hm I wonder who God is and I got to be honest I think that that experience be honest I think that that experience be honest I think that that experience is really what changed the entire

is really what changed the entire is really what changed the entire trajectory of my life because the abuse trajectory of my life because the abuse trajectory of my life because the abuse was still happening at home but I was was still happening at home but I was was still happening at home but I was part of a church community that that part of a church community that that part of a church community that that loved me that affirmed me um I was loved me that affirmed me um I was loved me that affirmed me um I was learning more about my identity in God learning more about my identity in God learning more about my identity in God and that I had purpose on my life I and that I had purpose on my life I and that I had purpose on my life I remember my youth pastor saying NOA you remember my youth pastor saying NOA you remember my youth pastor saying NOA you you know you're you're a leader you're a you know you're you're a leader you're a you know you're you're a leader you're a leader you're you you're smart you're a leader you're you you're smart you're a leader you're you you're smart you're a great speaker and that was the place great speaker and that was the place great speaker and that was the place where I was built up and so I started to where I was built up and so I started to where I was built up and so I started to change my behavior in school uh ended up change my behavior in school uh ended up change my behavior in school uh ended up getting really good grades started like getting really good grades started like getting really good grades started like being in student government doing all being in student government doing all being in student government doing all types of extracurricular organizations types of extracurricular organizations types of extracurricular organizations and I'm telling you my entire life and I'm telling you my entire life and I'm telling you my entire life changed because of that experience but changed because of that experience but changed because of that experience but yeah my formative years were shaped by yeah my formative years were shaped by yeah my formative years were shaped by just multiple levels of just multiple levels of just multiple levels of trauma one of the things that first of trauma one of the things that first of trauma one of the things that first of all I'm just I'm so story I know it's a all I'm just I'm so story I know it's a all I'm just I'm so story I know it's a story of redemption we're going to get story of redemption we're going to get story of redemption we're going to get there but I just want to acknowledge how there but I just want to acknowledge how there but I just want to acknowledge how how sad and and and terrible that how sad and and and terrible that how sad and and and terrible that situation is um you know one of the situation is um you know one of the situation is um you know one of the things that really grip me is you it's things that really grip me is you it's things that really grip me is you it's the story you tell about you and your the story you tell about you and your the story you tell about you and your husband Tim and Tim didn't really husband Tim and Tim didn't really husband Tim and Tim didn't really understand why your mom and you had a understand why your mom and you had a understand why your mom and you had a strained relationship can you tell us strained relationship can you tell us strained relationship can you tell us about what happened when you tried to about what happened when you tried to about what happened when you tried to reconcile because i' I've seen this play reconcile because i' I've seen this play reconcile because i' I've seen this play out in a number of adult situations if out in a number of adult situations if out in a number of adult situations if you grow up in a a loving relatively you grow up in a a loving relatively you grow up in a a loving relatively Healthy Home you want to see your Healthy Home you want to see your Healthy Home you want to see your parents yeah if you don't sometimes you parents yeah if you don't sometimes you parents yeah if you don't sometimes you don't can you can you talk about that

don't can you can you talk about that don't can you can you talk about that yeah I thank you for bringing this up um yeah I thank you for bringing this up um yeah I thank you for bringing this up um for two reasons the first for two reasons the first for two reasons the first is is is children naturally want to be in children naturally want to be in children naturally want to be in relationship with their parents like I relationship with their parents like I relationship with their parents like I don't know of any child who is like man don't know of any child who is like man don't know of any child who is like man I just you know can't wait to not have a I just you know can't wait to not have a I just you know can't wait to not have a relationship with my mom or dad like you relationship with my mom or dad like you relationship with my mom or dad like you know teens go through that phase but know teens go through that phase but know teens go through that phase but there there really is something within there there really is something within there there really is something within us that finds comfort and safety within us that finds comfort and safety within us that finds comfort and safety within our parents and so when you encounter our parents and so when you encounter our parents and so when you encounter someone who doesn't have a relationship someone who doesn't have a relationship someone who doesn't have a relationship with their mom or their dad what can with their mom or their dad what can with their mom or their dad what can tend to happen is if you have a good tend to happen is if you have a good tend to happen is if you have a good relationship with your parents you'll be relationship with your parents you'll be relationship with your parents you'll be like you know just make it right like like you know just make it right like like you know just make it right like what's the problem you only get one mom what's the problem you only get one mom what's the problem you only get one mom you only get one dad like you just you you only get one dad like you just you you only get one dad like you just you can't understand why that would be and can't understand why that would be and can't understand why that would be and so my husband you know he has uh always so my husband you know he has uh always so my husband you know he has uh always had a really good relationship with his had a really good relationship with his had a really good relationship with his parents and so when we were even parents and so when we were even parents and so when we were even courting he couldn't understand why my courting he couldn't understand why my courting he couldn't understand why my mom and I didn't really talk and then mom and I didn't really talk and then mom and I didn't really talk and then after we got married he was like you after we got married he was like you after we got married he was like you know you just need to make it right and know you just need to make it right and know you just need to make it right and I try to explain like listen my mom I try to explain like listen my mom I try to explain like listen my mom allowed some really hurtful things to allowed some really hurtful things to allowed some really hurtful things to happen to me my mom herself did some happen to me my mom herself did some happen to me my mom herself did some really hurtful things to me and has really hurtful things to me and has really hurtful things to me and has never apologized and um you know I just never apologized and um you know I just never apologized and um you know I just don't feel safe and he was like look you don't feel safe and he was like look you don't feel safe and he was like look you only get one mom right the thing that only get one mom right the thing that only get one mom right the thing that everybody said you only get one mom you everybody said you only get one mom you everybody said you only get one mom you know she probably just has a lot of know she probably just has a lot of know she probably just has a lot of guilt and she doesn't know how to guilt and she doesn't know how to guilt and she doesn't know how to apologize or whatever and so um I I apologize or whatever and so um I I apologize or whatever and so um I I tried to kind of heed uh my husband's tried to kind of heed uh my husband's tried to kind of heed uh my husband's prompting for the hundredth time because

prompting for the hundredth time because prompting for the hundredth time because I'm telling you for he's like give her a I'm telling you for he's like give her a I'm telling you for he's like give her a call give your mom a call right yeah call give your mom a call right yeah call give your mom a call right yeah decade the my experience with my mom has decade the my experience with my mom has decade the my experience with my mom has always been um when I was even a child always been um when I was even a child always been um when I was even a child my mom could go days and weeks without my mom could go days and weeks without my mom could go days and weeks without speaking to me and then um when I you speaking to me and then um when I you speaking to me and then um when I you know moved out went to college that know moved out went to college that know moved out went to college that could turn into months um that could could turn into months um that could could turn into months um that could turn into years if I did not call her turn into years if I did not call her turn into years if I did not call her she didn't call me and so um I would she didn't call me and so um I would she didn't call me and so um I would even tell my husband I was like listen even tell my husband I was like listen even tell my husband I was like listen it's not even that I don't want a it's not even that I don't want a it's not even that I don't want a relationship with her it's that she relationship with her it's that she relationship with her it's that she doesn't seem to want a relationship with doesn't seem to want a relationship with doesn't seem to want a relationship with me and so I was the one always in the me and so I was the one always in the me and so I was the one always in the position of pursuing her so um one day I position of pursuing her so um one day I position of pursuing her so um one day I did I was like all right you know what did I was like all right you know what did I was like all right you know what I'm going to try again to make this work I'm going to try again to make this work I'm going to try again to make this work and so uh she lives about an hour and a and so uh she lives about an hour and a and so uh she lives about an hour and a half from where we live so I set up this half from where we live so I set up this half from where we live so I set up this weekend where I wanted us to have like a weekend where I wanted us to have like a weekend where I wanted us to have like a motherdaughter weekend and and kind of motherdaughter weekend and and kind of motherdaughter weekend and and kind of reconcile and uh I picked her up and we reconcile and uh I picked her up and we reconcile and uh I picked her up and we were driving back to my home and I just were driving back to my home and I just were driving back to my home and I just brought up I said you know don't you brought up I said you know don't you brought up I said you know don't you think it's it's strange that we don't think it's it's strange that we don't think it's it's strange that we don't really have a relationship like we don't really have a relationship like we don't really have a relationship like we don't really talk and she basically was like really talk and she basically was like really talk and she basically was like No And um I said well you know I would No And um I said well you know I would No And um I said well you know I would like us to have a relationship where we like us to have a relationship where we like us to have a relationship where we talk and we laugh and we take trips talk and we laugh and we take trips talk and we laugh and we take trips together you know like a mom mommy together you know like a mom mommy together you know like a mom mommy daughter relationship and uh I said but daughter relationship and uh I said but daughter relationship and uh I said but in order for that to happen we have to in order for that to happen we have to in order for that to happen we have to discuss what happened to me as a child discuss what happened to me as a child discuss what happened to me as a child and um the mood in the car completely and um the mood in the car completely and um the mood in the car completely turned icy and I sensed it and I knew

turned icy and I sensed it and I knew turned icy and I sensed it and I knew that that was getting into an area she that that was getting into an area she that that was getting into an area she didn't want to go into and so she said didn't want to go into and so she said didn't want to go into and so she said you know that was the past that's not you know that was the past that's not you know that was the past that's not something we need to talk about and I something we need to talk about and I something we need to talk about and I said well we do need to talk about it I said well we do need to talk about it I said well we do need to talk about it I said because it was deeply hurtful to me said because it was deeply hurtful to me said because it was deeply hurtful to me um and I was like and you've never even um and I was like and you've never even um and I was like and you've never even apologized or acknowledged what happened apologized or acknowledged what happened apologized or acknowledged what happened and um my mom basic basically said well and um my mom basic basically said well and um my mom basic basically said well it wouldn't have happened if you would it wouldn't have happened if you would it wouldn't have happened if you would have just kept your legs have just kept your legs have just kept your legs closed and you know I I share that closed and you know I I share that closed and you know I I share that because I think it really speaks to the because I think it really speaks to the because I think it really speaks to the state of her state of her state of her heart um you know I was you know six heart um you know I was you know six heart um you know I was you know six seven eight nine years old and in her seven eight nine years old and in her seven eight nine years old and in her mind it was my fault and I think a lot mind it was my fault and I think a lot mind it was my fault and I think a lot of us a lot of leaders are carrying of us a lot of leaders are carrying of us a lot of leaders are carrying guilt uh because it was guilt that was guilt uh because it was guilt that was guilt uh because it was guilt that was given to them by someone who actually given to them by someone who actually given to them by someone who actually owns it like they're giving you their owns it like they're giving you their owns it like they're giving you their guilt so um that was definitely painful guilt so um that was definitely painful guilt so um that was definitely painful and I will say this Carrie one of the and I will say this Carrie one of the and I will say this Carrie one of the revelations that I got years after that revelations that I got years after that revelations that I got years after that experience and having to distance myself experience and having to distance myself experience and having to distance myself from my mom is that a healthy from my mom is that a healthy from my mom is that a healthy relationship is actually two sides of relationship is actually two sides of relationship is actually two sides of the same coin on the one side is the the same coin on the one side is the the same coin on the one side is the thing that we always harp on and that is thing that we always harp on and that is thing that we always harp on and that is forgiveness right like okay somebody forgiveness right like okay somebody forgiveness right like okay somebody hurts you you forgive them you know man hurts you you forgive them you know man hurts you you forgive them you know man they know not what they're doing forgive they know not what they're doing forgive they know not what they're doing forgive them okay that is true we forgive them them okay that is true we forgive them them okay that is true we forgive them because forgiveness is essentially the because forgiveness is essentially the because forgiveness is essentially the currency of Peace for us however on the

currency of Peace for us however on the currency of Peace for us however on the other side of the coin in order for other side of the coin in order for other side of the coin in order for there to be a healthy relationship there there to be a healthy relationship there there to be a healthy relationship there also has to be repentance and we don't also has to be repentance and we don't also has to be repentance and we don't tend to talk about that which is if a tend to talk about that which is if a tend to talk about that which is if a person causes an offense they have to person causes an offense they have to person causes an offense they have to have the humility to acknowledge it and have the humility to acknowledge it and have the humility to acknowledge it and repent of it which means changing repent of it which means changing repent of it which means changing Direction not allowing it to happen Direction not allowing it to happen Direction not allowing it to happen again um in the absence of repentance again um in the absence of repentance again um in the absence of repentance that person is not safe and I think far that person is not safe and I think far that person is not safe and I think far too many of us are feeling pressure to too many of us are feeling pressure to too many of us are feeling pressure to be in relationship with unrepentant be in relationship with unrepentant be in relationship with unrepentant people who keep hurting us over and over people who keep hurting us over and over people who keep hurting us over and over and over um but at some point we have to and over um but at some point we have to and over um but at some point we have to recognize I can forgive you but that recognize I can forgive you but that recognize I can forgive you but that doesn't necessarily mean that I have to doesn't necessarily mean that I have to doesn't necessarily mean that I have to give you access to give you access to give you access to me me me H one of the this is repeating theme on H one of the this is repeating theme on H one of the this is repeating theme on the podcast I interviewed Henry Cloud the podcast I interviewed Henry Cloud the podcast I interviewed Henry Cloud this year and you know he had a this year and you know he had a this year and you know he had a traumatic childhood and it was just it traumatic childhood and it was just it traumatic childhood and it was just it was more medical things that happened to was more medical things that happened to was more medical things that happened to him rather than abuse or that kind of him rather than abuse or that kind of him rather than abuse or that kind of thing but a lot of depression and you thing but a lot of depression and you thing but a lot of depression and you know I've I've read around this but not know I've I've read around this but not know I've I've read around this but not enough to to Really quote it but I think enough to to Really quote it but I think enough to to Really quote it but I think I think there's two things that happen I think there's two things that happen I think there's two things that happen when traumatic experiences happen to a when traumatic experiences happen to a when traumatic experiences happen to a child and in my head I think of it is child and in my head I think of it is child and in my head I think of it is you implode or you explode so one you implode or you explode so one you implode or you explode so one one route that is often well paved is one route that is often well paved is one route that is often well paved is you become an addict right nonah you you become an addict right nonah you you become an addict right nonah you bury your pain yep through alcohol drugs bury your pain yep through alcohol drugs bury your pain yep through alcohol drugs you name it um any kind of lifestyle

you name it um any kind of lifestyle you name it um any kind of lifestyle that basically self-destructs because that basically self-destructs because that basically self-destructs because you feel so bad you implode that's you feel so bad you implode that's you feel so bad you implode that's implosion or you explode I'm going to go implosion or you explode I'm going to go implosion or you explode I'm going to go to church I'm going to become uh you to church I'm going to become uh you to church I'm going to become uh you know I'm going to be involved in student know I'm going to be involved in student know I'm going to be involved in student government I'm going to be a straight government I'm going to be a straight government I'm going to be a straight day student I'm going to college I'm day student I'm going to college I'm day student I'm going to college I'm going to be the first one who goes to going to be the first one who goes to going to be the first one who goes to college I've numerous friends who have college I've numerous friends who have college I've numerous friends who have exploded rather than imploded I'm exploded rather than imploded I'm exploded rather than imploded I'm wondering number one whether you've seen wondering number one whether you've seen wondering number one whether you've seen that and number two why you chose the that and number two why you chose the that and number two why you chose the explosion rather than the implosion well explosion rather than the implosion well explosion rather than the implosion well first it's it's interesting that you use first it's it's interesting that you use first it's it's interesting that you use that language because I literally talk that language because I literally talk that language because I literally talk about implosion and explosion as about implosion and explosion as about implosion and explosion as expressions of rejection in my new book expressions of rejection in my new book expressions of rejection in my new book um and and the reason why I talk about um and and the reason why I talk about um and and the reason why I talk about that is because I do think that the the that is because I do think that the the that is because I do think that the the painful and the hurtful experience es painful and the hurtful experience es painful and the hurtful experience es that we have even though there's this that we have even though there's this that we have even though there's this idea that well Time Heals all wounds idea that well Time Heals all wounds idea that well Time Heals all wounds that's a lie the things that we don't that's a lie the things that we don't that's a lie the things that we don't deal with the things that we don't deal with the things that we don't deal with the things that we don't address don't go away they simply seep address don't go away they simply seep address don't go away they simply seep out of us in various forms um one of out of us in various forms um one of out of us in various forms um one of those forms as you said could be self those forms as you said could be self those forms as you said could be self harm that is implosion it's like I'm harm that is implosion it's like I'm harm that is implosion it's like I'm going to take my pain out on myself um going to take my pain out on myself um going to take my pain out on myself um on the explosion side um I think I on the explosion side um I think I on the explosion side um I think I actually think there's two there's two actually think there's two there's two actually think there's two there's two ways that we explode on the one hand we ways that we explode on the one hand we ways that we explode on the one hand we do explode into ambition and and that's do explode into ambition and and that's do explode into ambition and and that's definitely been my experience that's definitely been my experience that's definitely been my experience that's been my path I think that becomes what been my path I think that becomes what been my path I think that becomes what people think is a virtuous form of um people think is a virtuous form of um people think is a virtuous form of um kind of expressing it certainly has more

kind of expressing it certainly has more kind of expressing it certainly has more rewards in this life than implosion rewards in this life than implosion rewards in this life than implosion absolutely now there the second form of absolutely now there the second form of absolutely now there the second form of explosion is we can explode into anger explosion is we can explode into anger explosion is we can explode into anger there are some people who are just there are some people who are just there are some people who are just there's like a seething hostility like there's like a seething hostility like there's like a seething hostility like they're just angry anything will set they're just angry anything will set they're just angry anything will set them off I've had um some manager in my them off I've had um some manager in my them off I've had um some manager in my life who were carrying a lot of Anger life who were carrying a lot of Anger life who were carrying a lot of Anger from things they experienced in from things they experienced in from things they experienced in childhood um they were micromanaging you childhood um they were micromanaging you childhood um they were micromanaging you could not please them they were fault could not please them they were fault could not please them they were fault finding they were blaming and so when finding they were blaming and so when finding they were blaming and so when you get to the root of that it's all the you get to the root of that it's all the you get to the root of that it's all the same right it's the same pain that's same right it's the same pain that's same right it's the same pain that's unaddressed for me I will say that I unaddressed for me I will say that I unaddressed for me I will say that I think the reason why I took the path of think the reason why I took the path of think the reason why I took the path of exploding into ambition is because exploding into ambition is because exploding into ambition is because that's what was rewarded for me so in I that's what was rewarded for me so in I that's what was rewarded for me so in I think it was in the fourth grade you think it was in the fourth grade you think it was in the fourth grade you know I told you when I was in elementary know I told you when I was in elementary know I told you when I was in elementary school I was acting out a lot I was school I was acting out a lot I was school I was acting out a lot I was disruptive well my fourth grade teacher disruptive well my fourth grade teacher disruptive well my fourth grade teacher one day pulled me out of class and she one day pulled me out of class and she one day pulled me out of class and she said you know Nona you don't have to act said you know Nona you don't have to act said you know Nona you don't have to act like that she was like you know you're like that she was like you know you're like that she was like you know you're smart people listen to you you're a smart people listen to you you're a smart people listen to you you're a leader and she said these words which I leader and she said these words which I leader and she said these words which I will never forget she said I bet if you will never forget she said I bet if you will never forget she said I bet if you just try you can make all A's in my just try you can make all A's in my just try you can make all A's in my class that was the first time that I had class that was the first time that I had class that was the first time that I had anyone ever look beyond my behavior and anyone ever look beyond my behavior and anyone ever look beyond my behavior and speak to my potential and so what I did speak to my potential and so what I did speak to my potential and so what I did in response to that is I was like I'm in response to that is I was like I'm in response to that is I was like I'm going to live up to her expectations of going to live up to her expectations of going to live up to her expectations of me so she then kind of became the goal me so she then kind of became the goal me so she then kind of became the goal is I want to please her I want her to be is I want to please her I want her to be is I want to please her I want her to be happy with me and so I did I made all

happy with me and so I did I made all happy with me and so I did I made all AIDS in her class um and I kept the AIDS in her class um and I kept the AIDS in her class um and I kept the pattern going I became from that year on pattern going I became from that year on pattern going I became from that year on you will see all my progress reports you will see all my progress reports you will see all my progress reports change like I was the the teacher's pet change like I was the the teacher's pet change like I was the the teacher's pet um that's when I started to get into um that's when I started to get into um that's when I started to get into student leadership in uh Middle School I student leadership in uh Middle School I student leadership in uh Middle School I got put in advanced classes I was got put in advanced classes I was got put in advanced classes I was Captain of the dance team I was running Captain of the dance team I was running Captain of the dance team I was running track I was a captain of the track and track I was a captain of the track and track I was a captain of the track and field team like all of a sudden because field team like all of a sudden because field team like all of a sudden because I was being I was being I was being rewarded I chose that path now I think rewarded I chose that path now I think rewarded I chose that path now I think people um who explode into anger also people um who explode into anger also people um who explode into anger also are getting rewards as well and that are getting rewards as well and that are getting rewards as well and that could be in the form of people's could be in the form of people's could be in the form of people's compliance like they notice that when compliance like they notice that when compliance like they notice that when I'm angry when I'm Brash when I'm mean I'm angry when I'm Brash when I'm mean I'm angry when I'm Brash when I'm mean people do what I want and I think that people do what I want and I think that people do what I want and I think that becomes a form of power and so when you becomes a form of power and so when you becomes a form of power and so when you are um kind of nursing rejection wounds are um kind of nursing rejection wounds are um kind of nursing rejection wounds and abandonment wounds and all of those and abandonment wounds and all of those and abandonment wounds and all of those things you feel power lless so the things you feel power lless so the things you feel power lless so the explosion becomes a way to take power explosion becomes a way to take power explosion becomes a way to take power back in whether it's ambition or anger back in whether it's ambition or anger back in whether it's ambition or anger um but again I think ambition is the um but again I think ambition is the um but again I think ambition is the more virtuous form of it um implosion more virtuous form of it um implosion more virtuous form of it um implosion becomes kind of the The Vicious form of becomes kind of the The Vicious form of becomes kind of the The Vicious form of it so it was really that fourth grade it so it was really that fourth grade it so it was really that fourth grade teacher that gave you a different vision teacher that gave you a different vision teacher that gave you a different vision for for for if that hadn't come along do you think if that hadn't come along do you think if that hadn't come along do you think you could have chosen implosion or ended you could have chosen implosion or ended you could have chosen implosion or ended up down that road abely you know Carrie up down that road abely you know Carrie up down that road abely you know Carrie I will tell you um I I experienced a bit I will tell you um I I experienced a bit I will tell you um I I experienced a bit of implosion because um for the for the of implosion because um for the for the of implosion because um for the for the majority of my childhood going into

majority of my childhood going into majority of my childhood going into young adulthood I was very overweight um young adulthood I was very overweight um young adulthood I was very overweight um I used food to kind of anesthetize the I used food to kind of anesthetize the I used food to kind of anesthetize the pain of my situation so um I was very pain of my situation so um I was very pain of my situation so um I was very overweight well there came a period overweight well there came a period overweight well there came a period where I had a situation happen that was where I had a situation happen that was where I had a situation happen that was very hurtful someone very hurtful someone very hurtful someone publicly shamed me for being overweight publicly shamed me for being overweight publicly shamed me for being overweight um and as a result of that I secretly um and as a result of that I secretly um and as a result of that I secretly became bulimic um and so for me that became bulimic um and so for me that became bulimic um and so for me that became a form of implosion because that became a form of implosion because that became a form of implosion because that was harming myself in an effort to try was harming myself in an effort to try was harming myself in an effort to try to deal with the pain of that person to deal with the pain of that person to deal with the pain of that person embarrassing me so I I do think that you embarrassing me so I I do think that you embarrassing me so I I do think that you can have multiple forms um of that pain can have multiple forms um of that pain can have multiple forms um of that pain expression you know underneath this expression you know underneath this expression you know underneath this Gordon McDonald talks about the Gordon McDonald talks about the Gordon McDonald talks about the difference between being driven and difference between being driven and difference between being driven and being called right and if you sit down being called right and if you sit down being called right and if you sit down with a lot of driven people preachers with a lot of driven people preachers with a lot of driven people preachers leaders business Executives Founders leaders business Executives Founders leaders business Executives Founders entrepreneurs you discover that there's entrepreneurs you discover that there's entrepreneurs you discover that there's something driving them and it's not something driving them and it's not something driving them and it's not always healthy it's often pain um what always healthy it's often pain um what always healthy it's often pain um what are you learning about the positive side are you learning about the positive side are you learning about the positive side of drivenness the negative side of of drivenness the negative side of of drivenness the negative side of drivenness uh versus you know learning drivenness uh versus you know learning drivenness uh versus you know learning how to redeem those motivations how to redeem those motivations how to redeem those motivations yeah well I'll start with uh the yeah well I'll start with uh the yeah well I'll start with uh the negative side just because I think this negative side just because I think this negative side just because I think this is the part that sometimes um because is the part that sometimes um because is the part that sometimes um because it's so subtle we don't really see it it's so subtle we don't really see it it's so subtle we don't really see it when we experience rejection when we when we experience rejection when we when we experience rejection when we experience uh trauma we can make inner

experience uh trauma we can make inner experience uh trauma we can make inner vows that say I will never allow someone vows that say I will never allow someone vows that say I will never allow someone to do this to me again or I will never to do this to me again or I will never to do this to me again or I will never put myself in this type of a situation put myself in this type of a situation put myself in this type of a situation again and so that inner V can actually again and so that inner V can actually again and so that inner V can actually almost become like a um like a almost become like a um like a almost become like a um like a hydrochloric acid uh within us and and hydrochloric acid uh within us and and hydrochloric acid uh within us and and if you think about hydrochloric acid but if you think about hydrochloric acid but if you think about hydrochloric acid but what does it do it dissolves whatever it what does it do it dissolves whatever it what does it do it dissolves whatever it comes into contact with and so that comes into contact with and so that comes into contact with and so that inner valin no matter how successful you inner valin no matter how successful you inner valin no matter how successful you are no matter how much you achieve it's are no matter how much you achieve it's are no matter how much you achieve it's like a hydrochloric acid to it it just like a hydrochloric acid to it it just like a hydrochloric acid to it it just dissolves it and you still feel like dissolves it and you still feel like dissolves it and you still feel like well I got to do more and I got to get well I got to do more and I got to get well I got to do more and I got to get more why because that inner valve is now more why because that inner valve is now more why because that inner valve is now prompting you to make decision to feed prompting you to make decision to feed prompting you to make decision to feed it as opposed to feeding purpose those it as opposed to feeding purpose those it as opposed to feeding purpose those are two very different things that's why are two very different things that's why are two very different things that's why I love the way that you said that um the I love the way that you said that um the I love the way that you said that um the difference between being driven and difference between being driven and difference between being driven and being called um you'll know that you've being called um you'll know that you've being called um you'll know that you've made that inner vow and you'll know that made that inner vow and you'll know that made that inner vow and you'll know that you're being driven because there's a you're being driven because there's a you're being driven because there's a lack of fulfillment so y matter Never lack of fulfillment so y matter Never lack of fulfillment so y matter Never Enough Never Enough right never never Enough Never Enough right never never Enough Never Enough right never never enough and and and you can achieve the enough and and and you can achieve the enough and and and you can achieve the thing that you said if I can just get thing that you said if I can just get thing that you said if I can just get that then I'll finally be good and that then I'll finally be good and that then I'll finally be good and within a day or two or maybe a week it's within a day or two or maybe a week it's within a day or two or maybe a week it's like all right what's next you know so I like all right what's next you know so I like all right what's next you know so I think that's part of it the the positive think that's part of it the the positive think that's part of it the the positive side of it is I do think that there has side of it is I do think that there has side of it is I do think that there has to be a motivation like there has to be to be a motivation like there has to be to be a motivation like there has to be something within you that's going to something within you that's going to something within you that's going to propel you into your calling like I know propel you into your calling like I know propel you into your calling like I know some people I actually just had a some people I actually just had a some people I actually just had a conversation with a young lady today

conversation with a young lady today conversation with a young lady today that she was just talking about how she that she was just talking about how she that she was just talking about how she feels like you know she wants to move feels like you know she wants to move feels like you know she wants to move into a new opportunity and my question into a new opportunity and my question into a new opportunity and my question to her was okay well well what are you to her was okay well well what are you to her was okay well well what are you called to because her her her thing was called to because her her her thing was called to because her her her thing was well I just want to help people okay well I just want to help people okay well I just want to help people okay that's a huge category right um You can that's a huge category right um You can that's a huge category right um You can help people you can even build a big help people you can even build a big help people you can even build a big platform helping people but if that's platform helping people but if that's platform helping people but if that's not what you're called to if that's not not what you're called to if that's not not what you're called to if that's not what you're graced for you're not going what you're graced for you're not going what you're graced for you're not going to be fulfilled and it's never going to to be fulfilled and it's never going to to be fulfilled and it's never going to be enough um so I do think that we as be enough um so I do think that we as be enough um so I do think that we as leaders have to be really careful that leaders have to be really careful that leaders have to be really careful that if we have to force something chances if we have to force something chances if we have to force something chances are we're not graced for it and we have are we're not graced for it and we have are we're not graced for it and we have to question is there an inner vow Within to question is there an inner vow Within to question is there an inner vow Within Me that's pushing me into this where I'm Me that's pushing me into this where I'm Me that's pushing me into this where I'm like I just once I get this I'll matter like I just once I get this I'll matter like I just once I get this I'll matter if that's what's driving us we will if that's what's driving us we will if that's what's driving us we will never experience fulfillment how has never experience fulfillment how has never experience fulfillment how has your you know you've been in senior your you know you've been in senior your you know you've been in senior leadership now for what a decade or leadership now for what a decade or leadership now for what a decade or more how has your dance your more how has your dance your more how has your dance your Tango with uh the drivenness changed in Tango with uh the drivenness changed in Tango with uh the drivenness changed in your adult life that's such a good your adult life that's such a good your adult life that's such a good question Carrie and I I've reflected on question Carrie and I I've reflected on question Carrie and I I've reflected on this a lot um because I remember you this a lot um because I remember you this a lot um because I remember you know early in my career when I got into know early in my career when I got into know early in my career when I got into my my first so I've been in senior my my first so I've been in senior my my first so I've been in senior executive roles since I was 23 um and executive roles since I was 23 um and executive roles since I was 23 um and now I'm 42 um and I just recently now I'm 42 um and I just recently now I'm 42 um and I just recently stepped out of one about six seven stepped out of one about six seven stepped out of one about six seven months ago and so now I'm in like months ago and so now I'm in like months ago and so now I'm in like full-time Ministry and Entrepreneurship full-time Ministry and Entrepreneurship full-time Ministry and Entrepreneurship but um I remember early in my career

but um I remember early in my career but um I remember early in my career thinking man if I could just get this thinking man if I could just get this thinking man if I could just get this title there was a title that I wanted title there was a title that I wanted title there was a title that I wanted right there was there was a certain right there was there was a certain right there was there was a certain salary that I wanted if I can get that salary that I wanted if I can get that salary that I wanted if I can get that then you know I'll I'll have made it then you know I'll I'll have made it then you know I'll I'll have made it well the problem with that is once you well the problem with that is once you well the problem with that is once you get that it's almost like success get that it's almost like success get that it's almost like success becomes its own drug because once you becomes its own drug because once you becomes its own drug because once you achieve something you you realize what achieve something you you realize what achieve something you you realize what you haven't achieved like there are you haven't achieved like there are you haven't achieved like there are levels there are levels you right like levels there are levels you right like levels there are levels you right like you get to I remember on Instagram when you get to I remember on Instagram when you get to I remember on Instagram when I got to a thousand followers and I was I got to a thousand followers and I was I got to a thousand followers and I was just like I have made it right like well just like I have made it right like well just like I have made it right like well then I saw somebody with 10,000 and I then I saw somebody with 10,000 and I then I saw somebody with 10,000 and I found out at 10,000 you can share links found out at 10,000 you can share links found out at 10,000 you can share links in your stories yes remember that that in your stories yes remember that that in your stories yes remember that that was a big deal like now anybody can was a big deal like now anybody can was a big deal like now anybody can share links it's like come on bring it share links it's like come on bring it share links it's like come on bring it back bring it back it needs to be back bring it back it needs to be back bring it back it needs to be exclusive no I I was like man once I get exclusive no I I was like man once I get exclusive no I I was like man once I get to 10,000 I will have arrived I got to to 10,000 I will have arrived I got to to 10,000 I will have arrived I got to 10,000 and I saw somebody else with 30 10,000 and I saw somebody else with 30 10,000 and I saw somebody else with 30 and I was like if I could just get to and I was like if I could just get to and I was like if I could just get to like it it just kept going so in my like it it just kept going so in my like it it just kept going so in my career you know I was I was a director career you know I was I was a director career you know I was I was a director then I was like man if I could just then I was like man if I could just then I was like man if I could just become a VP got that oh man if I could become a VP got that oh man if I could become a VP got that oh man if I could just get to the SE Suite just get to the SE Suite just get to the SE Suite that happened wow you know if I could that happened wow you know if I could that happened wow you know if I could just be on the board of some prestigious just be on the board of some prestigious just be on the board of some prestigious organization I did that well if I can organization I did that well if I can organization I did that well if I can now just be on the board of a paid can I now just be on the board of a paid can I now just be on the board of a paid can I get a paid board seat okay I got that get a paid board seat okay I got that get a paid board seat okay I got that and it just it it never was enough and and it just it it never was enough and and it just it it never was enough and so I think about maybe 10 12 years into so I think about maybe 10 12 years into so I think about maybe 10 12 years into my career I started to have the the my career I started to have the the my career I started to have the the realization that it's like man the more

realization that it's like man the more realization that it's like man the more I achieve the more I realize I haven't I achieve the more I realize I haven't I achieve the more I realize I haven't and if I'm not careful I will end my and if I'm not careful I will end my and if I'm not careful I will end my life feeling like a failure not because life feeling like a failure not because life feeling like a failure not because I have failed but because I am comparing I have failed but because I am comparing I have failed but because I am comparing where I am to where I'm not so that that where I am to where I'm not so that that where I am to where I'm not so that that has been the journey and I'm at a place has been the journey and I'm at a place has been the journey and I'm at a place now where I'm able to just be grateful now where I'm able to just be grateful now where I'm able to just be grateful for where I'm at Carrie and I got to for where I'm at Carrie and I got to for where I'm at Carrie and I got to tell you man Paul had it right it's like tell you man Paul had it right it's like tell you man Paul had it right it's like godliness with contentment is great gain godliness with contentment is great gain godliness with contentment is great gain like just being able to see somebody like just being able to see somebody like just being able to see somebody else achieve incredible things and just else achieve incredible things and just else achieve incredible things and just be happy for them and not feel like oh be happy for them and not feel like oh be happy for them and not feel like oh man because I don't have that some I I man because I don't have that some I I man because I don't have that some I I haven't haven't haven't arrived that that to me is great gain I arrived that that to me is great gain I arrived that that to me is great gain I don't need to be wear any particular don't need to be wear any particular don't need to be wear any particular title but to just have contentment and I title but to just have contentment and I title but to just have contentment and I think that's where my journey is taken think that's where my journey is taken think that's where my journey is taken me what has helped you get me what has helped you get me what has helped you get there I think it's been honestly just I there I think it's been honestly just I there I think it's been honestly just I got tired of the Perpetual state of got tired of the Perpetual state of got tired of the Perpetual state of discontentment I think that's what it discontentment I think that's what it discontentment I think that's what it was is I I I was is I I I was is I I I realized uh there was an organization realized uh there was an organization realized uh there was an organization that I wanted to be a part of it's like that I wanted to be a part of it's like that I wanted to be a part of it's like an invite only Organization for you know an invite only Organization for you know an invite only Organization for you know senior Executives and um I applied for senior Executives and um I applied for senior Executives and um I applied for it and the first time I applied I didn't it and the first time I applied I didn't it and the first time I applied I didn't get selected and I remember just being get selected and I remember just being get selected and I remember just being like Oh I suck I just you know and I like Oh I suck I just you know and I like Oh I suck I just you know and I remember feeling like I just I I didn't remember feeling like I just I I didn't remember feeling like I just I I didn't matter because I didn't get invited or matter because I didn't get invited or matter because I didn't get invited or selected well the next year I I applied selected well the next year I I applied selected well the next year I I applied again because uh someone on the again because uh someone on the again because uh someone on the selection committee said I really think selection committee said I really think selection committee said I really think you need to apply this year I applied I you need to apply this year I applied I you need to apply this year I applied I got in I did the program and Carrie I

got in I did the program and Carrie I got in I did the program and Carrie I got to tell you at the end of it I was got to tell you at the end of it I was got to tell you at the end of it I was like such a waste of like such a waste of like such a waste of time I was just like I was like it was time I was just like I was like it was time I was just like I was like it was such a waste of time like yes I you know such a waste of time like yes I you know such a waste of time like yes I you know I'm with all these professionals they're I'm with all these professionals they're I'm with all these professionals they're all successful and they're high all successful and they're high all successful and they're high powerered and all this stuff I was like powerered and all this stuff I was like powerered and all this stuff I was like I I didn't feel any better after doing I I didn't feel any better after doing I I didn't feel any better after doing it I honestly just felt like I wasted a it I honestly just felt like I wasted a it I honestly just felt like I wasted a year of my life and so I think that year of my life and so I think that year of my life and so I think that became the turning point where I was became the turning point where I was became the turning point where I was like you know what yeah I think all is like you know what yeah I think all is like you know what yeah I think all is kind of kind of kind of vanity yeah you know what I'm reading I vanity yeah you know what I'm reading I vanity yeah you know what I'm reading I am reading Ecclesiastes right now and if am reading Ecclesiastes right now and if am reading Ecclesiastes right now and if you want real time notes I'm I'm like you want real time notes I'm I'm like you want real time notes I'm I'm like godliness is with contentment is great godliness is with contentment is great godliness is with contentment is great gain because it's been a demon that I gain because it's been a demon that I gain because it's been a demon that I have been systemically chasing for have been systemically chasing for have been systemically chasing for decades this not enough never enough you decades this not enough never enough you decades this not enough never enough you know because again you know even this know because again you know even this know because again you know even this podcast great example greatly exceeded podcast great example greatly exceeded podcast great example greatly exceeded my dreams but then it's like well why my dreams but then it's like well why my dreams but then it's like well why isn't it 100 million right you're just isn't it 100 million right you're just isn't it 100 million right you're just like come on come on settle down but like come on come on settle down but like come on come on settle down but there's this yeah go ahead I was going there's this yeah go ahead I was going there's this yeah go ahead I was going to tell you something super super morbid to tell you something super super morbid to tell you something super super morbid that has actually grounded me which is that has actually grounded me which is that has actually grounded me which is and I'm going GNA ask you this question and I'm going GNA ask you this question and I'm going GNA ask you this question and you may know who is your and you may know who is your and you may know who is your grandfather's father um yeah grandfather's father um yeah grandfather's father um yeah I I'm struggling on multiple sides I I'm struggling on multiple sides I I'm struggling on multiple sides there's a cornelus in the mix somewhere there's a cornelus in the mix somewhere there's a cornelus in the mix somewhere but that's all I know so if you think but that's all I know so if you think but that's all I know so if you think about our life

about our life about our life generationally yeah um you know generationally yeah um you know generationally yeah um you know two generations from two generations from two generations from now most people won't know who we are now most people won't know who we are now most people won't know who we are right and so you you get to the let's right and so you you get to the let's right and so you you get to the let's say you get to a billion say you get to a billion say you get to a billion downloads and two generations from now downloads and two generations from now downloads and two generations from now it's it's just not going to matter and it's it's just not going to matter and it's it's just not going to matter and so what's grounding me now is am I so what's grounding me now is am I so what's grounding me now is am I living in purpose am I doing what I was living in purpose am I doing what I was living in purpose am I doing what I was created to do is there joy in what I'm created to do is there joy in what I'm created to do is there joy in what I'm doing because the person who has a doing because the person who has a doing because the person who has a billion downloads like yeah man that's billion downloads like yeah man that's billion downloads like yeah man that's awesome for them but two generations awesome for them but two generations awesome for them but two generations from now people won't even know who they from now people won't even know who they from now people won't even know who they were so exactly so if if I can impact were so exactly so if if I can impact were so exactly so if if I can impact and I can shape this and I can shape this and I can shape this moment that is Success like the people moment that is Success like the people moment that is Success like the people and I'm I'm taking this just just as an and I'm I'm taking this just just as an and I'm I'm taking this just just as an opportunity to just speak this into you opportunity to just speak this into you opportunity to just speak this into you is like the people who are listening to is like the people who are listening to is like the people who are listening to you like you are shaping them and they you like you are shaping them and they you like you are shaping them and they are shaping generation so it's almost are shaping generation so it's almost are shaping generation so it's almost like you're touching everyone on Earth like you're touching everyone on Earth like you're touching everyone on Earth because of the people that you're because of the people that you're because of the people that you're touching and it may seem like but it's touching and it may seem like but it's touching and it may seem like but it's not a billion but it is yeah no we we've not a billion but it is yeah no we we've not a billion but it is yeah no we we've thought about that you know I'd rather thought about that you know I'd rather thought about that you know I'd rather talk to 10 leaders than a thousand talk to 10 leaders than a thousand talk to 10 leaders than a thousand people yeah it it makes a difference you people yeah it it makes a difference you people yeah it it makes a difference you know the other the other thing just to know the other the other thing just to know the other the other thing just to to Noodle on for leaders listening who to Noodle on for leaders listening who to Noodle on for leaders listening who struggle with this which I think is an struggle with this which I think is an struggle with this which I think is an occupational hazard Nona but in this

occupational hazard Nona but in this occupational hazard Nona but in this current reading of Ecclesiastes which I current reading of Ecclesiastes which I current reading of Ecclesiastes which I finish tomorrow there's a refrain I've finish tomorrow there's a refrain I've finish tomorrow there's a refrain I've noticed before but it's it repeats more noticed before but it's it repeats more noticed before but it's it repeats more often than I thought and there's a line often than I thought and there's a line often than I thought and there's a line that Solomon has where he says you know that Solomon has where he says you know that Solomon has where he says you know everything's foolish everything's everything's foolish everything's everything's foolish everything's foolish he does this he does that it's foolish he does this he does that it's foolish he does this he does that it's foolish it's foolish it means nothing foolish it's foolish it means nothing foolish it's foolish it means nothing but he says so I'm concluding it's good but he says so I'm concluding it's good but he says so I'm concluding it's good to enjoy your food enjoy your drink and to enjoy your food enjoy your drink and to enjoy your food enjoy your drink and enjoy your work and I'm at the point in enjoy your work and I'm at the point in enjoy your work and I'm at the point in my life where I'm like I like a really my life where I'm like I like a really my life where I'm like I like a really good meal and I really love what I get good meal and I really love what I get good meal and I really love what I get to do and I'm like God is this the to do and I'm like God is this the to do and I'm like God is this the bullseye like I know there's more and bullseye like I know there's more and bullseye like I know there's more and there's a new testament not just an Old there's a new testament not just an Old there's a new testament not just an Old Testament so I I get that but I'm like Testament so I I get that but I'm like Testament so I I get that but I'm like Solomon's on to something here like if Solomon's on to something here like if Solomon's on to something here like if you can just enjoy the moment and savor you can just enjoy the moment and savor you can just enjoy the moment and savor it and really do work that you find it and really do work that you find it and really do work that you find meaningful and rewarding which I'm I'm meaningful and rewarding which I'm I'm meaningful and rewarding which I'm I'm very fortunate to do I find this very fortunate to do I find this very fortunate to do I find this extremely meaningful extremely rewarding extremely meaningful extremely rewarding extremely meaningful extremely rewarding work and I'm enjoying my bike rides and work and I'm enjoying my bike rides and work and I'm enjoying my bike rides and I'm enjoying my dinner with friends and I'm enjoying my dinner with friends and I'm enjoying my dinner with friends and I'm enjoying the celebration moments in I'm enjoying the celebration moments in I'm enjoying the celebration moments in life then Solomon's going do you're on life then Solomon's going do you're on life then Solomon's going do you're on to something you're on to something and to something you're on to something and to something you're on to something and I I don't know I'm just really mulling I I don't know I'm just really mulling I I don't know I'm just really mulling that over right now you know what I read that over right now you know what I read that over right now you know what I read a quote recently um that actually was a quote recently um that actually was a quote recently um that actually was was quite was quite profound and I I was quite was quite profound and I I was quite was quite profound and I I forget who who's the person who said it forget who who's the person who said it forget who who's the person who said it but it was someone who was like very but it was someone who was like very but it was someone who was like very very very very wealthy very successful very very very wealthy very successful very very very wealthy very successful um and they said the worst thing I could um and they said the worst thing I could um and they said the worst thing I could wish for someone is that they achieve wish for someone is that they achieve wish for someone is that they achieve all of their all of their all of their dreams and I was just like why would

dreams and I was just like why would dreams and I was just like why would that be the worst thing but his point that be the worst thing but his point that be the worst thing but his point was you may think that if I could just was you may think that if I could just was you may think that if I could just achieve everything on my to-do list then achieve everything on my to-do list then achieve everything on my to-do list then I'll have fulfillment and it's like I'll have fulfillment and it's like I'll have fulfillment and it's like actually achieving everything on your actually achieving everything on your actually achieving everything on your to-do list is the worst thing that you to-do list is the worst thing that you to-do list is the worst thing that you could possibly do because then you get could possibly do because then you get could possibly do because then you get to a place and it's something that to a place and it's something that to a place and it's something that actually I think Will Smith said as an actually I think Will Smith said as an actually I think Will Smith said as an actor he said I'm at a place in my life actor he said I'm at a place in my life actor he said I'm at a place in my life where I have more money than I could where I have more money than I could where I have more money than I could ever need he was like I'm known by more ever need he was like I'm known by more ever need he was like I'm known by more people than I could ever want to be people than I could ever want to be people than I could ever want to be known by I've literally done everything known by I've literally done everything known by I've literally done everything I could want to do and he's like now the I could want to do and he's like now the I could want to do and he's like now the question I'm wrestling with is what more question I'm wrestling with is what more question I'm wrestling with is what more is there to live for that Carrie is is there to live for that Carrie is is there to live for that Carrie is scary boom it is it's scary it's like so scary boom it is it's scary it's like so scary boom it is it's scary it's like so you've you've achieved everything you've you've you've achieved everything you've you've you've achieved everything you've ever thought you could possibly want to ever thought you could possibly want to ever thought you could possibly want to achieve and more than you thought and achieve and more than you thought and achieve and more than you thought and now you don't even know what there is to now you don't even know what there is to now you don't even know what there is to live for man you talk about emptiness live for man you talk about emptiness live for man you talk about emptiness but but we're aspiring to that man if I but but we're aspiring to that man if I but but we're aspiring to that man if I can just get on that level and feel like can just get on that level and feel like can just get on that level and feel like you have no reason to live no thanks you you have no reason to live no thanks you you have no reason to live no thanks you know know no we'll get to some other know know no we'll get to some other know know no we'll get to some other stuff in a minute uh couple of books ago stuff in a minute uh couple of books ago stuff in a minute uh couple of books ago I wrote didn't see it coming and it's I wrote didn't see it coming and it's I wrote didn't see it coming and it's seven sections and the last section is seven sections and the last section is seven sections and the last section is called emptiness it's my favorite I called emptiness it's my favorite I called emptiness it's my favorite I reread it this summer I don't think reread it this summer I don't think reread it this summer I don't think anybody makes it to the end I've never anybody makes it to the end I've never anybody makes it to the end I've never heard a single reader comment on wow I heard a single reader comment on wow I heard a single reader comment on wow I love the they he talk about burnout love the they he talk about burnout love the they he talk about burnout cynicism Pride irrelevance I hear about cynicism Pride irrelevance I hear about cynicism Pride irrelevance I hear about all the other issues I tackle no one all the other issues I tackle no one all the other issues I tackle no one talks about emptiness but I reread it talks about emptiness but I reread it talks about emptiness but I reread it just to remind myself you climb this just to remind myself you climb this just to remind myself you climb this mountain and you're like no so that's it mountain and you're like no so that's it mountain and you're like no so that's it you know you win the Super Bowl you're you know you win the Super Bowl you're you know you win the Super Bowl you're happy for two days and then you're like

happy for two days and then you're like happy for two days and then you're like well now what training camp in fact well now what training camp in fact well now what training camp in fact there's a curse right like if you win there's a curse right like if you win there's a curse right like if you win the the Super Bowl or the World Series the the Super Bowl or the World Series the the Super Bowl or the World Series or whatever it happens to be now you're or whatever it happens to be now you're or whatever it happens to be now you're expected to perform at a much higher expected to perform at a much higher expected to perform at a much higher level and it's like well here we are in level and it's like well here we are in level and it's like well here we are in this treadmill so you know you made a this treadmill so you know you made a this treadmill so you know you made a big career shift big work vocational big career shift big work vocational big career shift big work vocational shift so you spent how many years at shift so you spent how many years at shift so you spent how many years at meta total about six years yeah six meta total about six years yeah six meta total about six years yeah six years yeah big and we we connected years yeah big and we we connected years yeah big and we we connected numerous times on this podcast and numerous times on this podcast and numerous times on this podcast and offline Etc um looking back over your offline Etc um looking back over your offline Etc um looking back over your years at meta what are some of the top years at meta what are some of the top years at meta what are some of the top which Facebook when you started uh what which Facebook when you started uh what which Facebook when you started uh what are some of the top lessons you you are some of the top lessons you you are some of the top lessons you you learned at meta over those years man I learned at meta over those years man I learned at meta over those years man I think one of them that I try to live by think one of them that I try to live by think one of them that I try to live by daily even in my personal life is having daily even in my personal life is having daily even in my personal life is having deep convictions that are loosely held deep convictions that are loosely held deep convictions that are loosely held and so we would go into and so we would go into and so we would go into meetings um whether it was about a new meetings um whether it was about a new meetings um whether it was about a new product or a new strategy or whatever we product or a new strategy or whatever we product or a new strategy or whatever we were talking about um and we would all were talking about um and we would all were talking about um and we would all have very deep convictions about our have very deep convictions about our have very deep convictions about our point of view but most of the time we point of view but most of the time we point of view but most of the time we would leave the meeting arriving at a would leave the meeting arriving at a would leave the meeting arriving at a place that none of us started at because place that none of us started at because place that none of us started at because our deep convictions were loosely held our deep convictions were loosely held our deep convictions were loosely held and we were willing to be wrong I think and we were willing to be wrong I think and we were willing to be wrong I think before I joined meta like and part of it before I joined meta like and part of it before I joined meta like and part of it is because I came out of very is because I came out of very is because I came out of very hierarchical organizations and certainly hierarchical organizations and certainly hierarchical organizations and certainly meta is that but but it it was more

meta is that but but it it was more meta is that but but it it was more horizontal than hierarchical so I could horizontal than hierarchical so I could horizontal than hierarchical so I could be in a meeting with uh someone who has be in a meeting with uh someone who has be in a meeting with uh someone who has at a lower level than me but they would at a lower level than me but they would at a lower level than me but they would have just as much weight in the have just as much weight in the have just as much weight in the conversation as me because the goal was conversation as me because the goal was conversation as me because the goal was to arrive at the right decision not be to arrive at the right decision not be to arrive at the right decision not be right and so I think having those deep right and so I think having those deep right and so I think having those deep convictions that were loosely held I'm convictions that were loosely held I'm convictions that were loosely held I'm I'm I kind of operate my life now to I'm I kind of operate my life now to I'm I kind of operate my life now to where I'm like you know what yeah I have where I'm like you know what yeah I have where I'm like you know what yeah I have an opinion about this yeah I think I'm an opinion about this yeah I think I'm an opinion about this yeah I think I'm right on this but I'm willing to be right on this but I'm willing to be right on this but I'm willing to be wrong so that the right decision can be wrong so that the right decision can be wrong so that the right decision can be made and that is for me that's been made and that is for me that's been made and that is for me that's been ground ground uh breaking can you ground ground uh breaking can you ground ground uh breaking can you timestamp the years that you were at timestamp the years that you were at timestamp the years that you were at meta just the calendar years just meta just the calendar years just meta just the calendar years just because it's such a public company it's because it's such a public company it's because it's such a public company it's been through so many phases publicly you been through so many phases publicly you been through so many phases publicly you were there from what 20 2017 to were there from what 20 2017 to were there from what 20 2017 to 2023 so were you still there in the move 2023 so were you still there in the move 2023 so were you still there in the move fast and break things stage or were they fast and break things stage or were they fast and break things stage or were they emerging out of that so um I think the emerging out of that so um I think the emerging out of that so um I think the move fast and break things was still move fast and break things was still move fast and break things was still there so what what essentially happened there so what what essentially happened there so what what essentially happened was the ethos changed around uh late was the ethos changed around uh late was the ethos changed around uh late 2017 early 2018 because of Cambridge 2017 early 2018 because of Cambridge 2017 early 2018 because of Cambridge analytica that actually happened I analytica that actually happened I analytica that actually happened I remember when I joined Facebook um it remember when I joined Facebook um it remember when I joined Facebook um it was so amazing and wonderful for like was so amazing and wonderful for like was so amazing and wonderful for like three solid three solid three solid months then and then Cambridge analytica months then and then Cambridge analytica months then and then Cambridge analytica happened and uh everything blew up and happened and uh everything blew up and happened and uh everything blew up and so then the ethos became you know um so then the ethos became you know um so then the ethos became you know um move fast and build things which I think move fast and build things which I think move fast and build things which I think is much more respons I um but yeah I was

is much more respons I um but yeah I was is much more respons I um but yeah I was there during that for at least at least there during that for at least at least there during that for at least at least three or four months and then it changed three or four months and then it changed three or four months and then it changed so what is the difference between move so what is the difference between move so what is the difference between move fast and break things which is very fast and break things which is very fast and break things which is very famous to move fast and build things famous to move fast and build things famous to move fast and build things which I'm not sure I'd heard people talk which I'm not sure I'd heard people talk which I'm not sure I'd heard people talk about what so the the shift yeah the about what so the the shift yeah the about what so the the shift yeah the concept of of breaking things was that concept of of breaking things was that concept of of breaking things was that you know done is better than perfect and you know done is better than perfect and you know done is better than perfect and so if done causes a problem that's okay so if done causes a problem that's okay so if done causes a problem that's okay we'll fix it later we'll fix it later we'll fix it later let's just move fast let's implement the let's just move fast let's implement the let's just move fast let's implement the thing let's learn as quickly as we can thing let's learn as quickly as we can thing let's learn as quickly as we can so we can iterate and then we'll take so we can iterate and then we'll take so we can iterate and then we'll take our learnings and we'll you know do our learnings and we'll you know do our learnings and we'll you know do something better with it um the idea of something better with it um the idea of something better with it um the idea of build things is wait slow down before build things is wait slow down before build things is wait slow down before you ship that code let's let's make sure you ship that code let's let's make sure you ship that code let's let's make sure that the context of what it's being that the context of what it's being that the context of what it's being dropped into is going to actually make dropped into is going to actually make dropped into is going to actually make the system better as opposed to to the system better as opposed to to the system better as opposed to to making it worse and so that I think it making it worse and so that I think it making it worse and so that I think it it instituted like a pause and a a it instituted like a pause and a a it instituted like a pause and a a contemplation which was not there before contemplation which was not there before contemplation which was not there before um I think when I first joined the um I think when I first joined the um I think when I first joined the company it was very very much so the company it was very very much so the company it was very very much so the wild wild west of Silicon Valley like wild wild west of Silicon Valley like wild wild west of Silicon Valley like any engineer could just come up with any engineer could just come up with any engineer could just come up with something and just ship code and see something and just ship code and see something and just ship code and see what happens I I remember listening to what happens I I remember listening to what happens I I remember listening to podcasts in that era when it was still podcasts in that era when it was still podcasts in that era when it was still move fast and break things where you move fast and break things where you move fast and break things where you know because everyone thinks oh we have know because everyone thinks oh we have know because everyone thinks oh we have the same software we have the same app the same software we have the same app the same software we have the same app it's Facebook at the time no you have it's Facebook at the time no you have it's Facebook at the time no you have multiple versions running multiple codes multiple versions running multiple codes multiple versions running multiple codes and an engineer would upload something

and an engineer would upload something and an engineer would upload something on 10,000 users and You' get all these on 10,000 users and You' get all these on 10,000 users and You' get all these error reports and then it's like well error reports and then it's like well error reports and then it's like well we're not going to do that but someone we're not going to do that but someone we're not going to do that but someone else will launch something else so else will launch something else so else will launch something else so literally you know it's it's it's it's literally you know it's it's it's it's literally you know it's it's it's it's changing as they went so they became changing as they went so they became changing as they went so they became more um focused and deliberate about more um focused and deliberate about more um focused and deliberate about releasing more responsibly thought releasing more responsibly thought releasing more responsibly thought through code into the world Etc what are through code into the world Etc what are through code into the world Etc what are some other top lessons from your time at some other top lessons from your time at some other top lessons from your time at at facebookm meta so um that's at facebookm meta so um that's at facebookm meta so um that's definitely one I think I think the the definitely one I think I think the the definitely one I think I think the the concept of and the importance of data so concept of and the importance of data so concept of and the importance of data so you know because I also live in the you know because I also live in the you know because I also live in the world of of ministry um and my husband world of of ministry um and my husband world of of ministry um and my husband being a pastor I understand that being a pastor I understand that being a pastor I understand that sometimes what will happen is and we're sometimes what will happen is and we're sometimes what will happen is and we're dealing with this actually right now at dealing with this actually right now at dealing with this actually right now at our church so I'll give you a live our church so I'll give you a live our church so I'll give you a live example um what'll happen is somebody example um what'll happen is somebody example um what'll happen is somebody will complain about will complain about will complain about something and that happens at your something and that happens at your something and that happens at your church you're kidding me I know you church you're kidding me I know you church you're kidding me I know you can't you can't imagine somebody will can't you can't imagine somebody will can't you can't imagine somebody will complain about something a person will complain about something a person will complain about something a person will complain about something yeah and people complain about something yeah and people complain about something yeah and people will be like and they'll change will be like and they'll change will be like and they'll change everything because one person complained everything because one person complained everything because one person complained about something yeah and one of the about something yeah and one of the about something yeah and one of the things that I think serves me very well things that I think serves me very well things that I think serves me very well now that I definitely gleaned from the now that I definitely gleaned from the now that I definitely gleaned from the the ethos at Facebook and Almeta is you the ethos at Facebook and Almeta is you the ethos at Facebook and Almeta is you do not change anything until it is do not change anything until it is do not change anything until it is validated right so uh classic example validated right so uh classic example validated right so uh classic example and I know you'll know nothing about and I know you'll know nothing about and I know you'll know nothing about this Carrie or any other church leaders this Carrie or any other church leaders this Carrie or any other church leaders watching this um we got some complaints

watching this um we got some complaints watching this um we got some complaints about announcements and where about announcements and where about announcements and where announcements are placed um in the flow announcements are placed um in the flow announcements are placed um in the flow of worship right always about of worship right always about of worship right always about preferences never about princi you get preferences never about princi you get preferences never about princi you get it and so the thought was well we'll it and so the thought was well we'll it and so the thought was well we'll move announcements because we got a move announcements because we got a move announcements because we got a couple of people that said they don't couple of people that said they don't couple of people that said they don't like it where it is and I thought I said like it where it is and I thought I said like it where it is and I thought I said well why don't we actually test and like well why don't we actually test and like well why don't we actually test and like let's see like how many people share let's see like how many people share let's see like how many people share this opinion like is this truly a this opinion like is this truly a this opinion like is this truly a problem there's a difference between problem there's a difference between problem there's a difference between signal and noise like noise is somebody signal and noise like noise is somebody signal and noise like noise is somebody has a complaint signal is a validated has a complaint signal is a validated has a complaint signal is a validated sample of people have a complaint which sample of people have a complaint which sample of people have a complaint which is you can decide what the validation is is you can decide what the validation is is you can decide what the validation is is it 10% 20% is it 3% whatever it is is it 10% 20% is it 3% whatever it is is it 10% 20% is it 3% whatever it is but you decide what that is and then you but you decide what that is and then you but you decide what that is and then you validate that complaint is this truly an validate that complaint is this truly an validate that complaint is this truly an issue that we need to put energy and issue that we need to put energy and issue that we need to put energy and resources behind or not so you know at resources behind or not so you know at resources behind or not so you know at Facebook users complain all the time as Facebook users complain all the time as Facebook users complain all the time as you can imagine um it's it's a bit of a you can imagine um it's it's a bit of a you can imagine um it's it's a bit of a an interesting wonky experience an interesting wonky experience an interesting wonky experience sometimes but just because even a sometimes but just because even a sometimes but just because even a thousand people complain about something thousand people complain about something thousand people complain about something doesn't mean the whole system's going to doesn't mean the whole system's going to doesn't mean the whole system's going to change right because in the vast scheme change right because in the vast scheme change right because in the vast scheme of three billion daily active users of three billion daily active users of three billion daily active users that's noise that's not signal so that's that's noise that's not signal so that's that's noise that's not signal so that's one of the ways that it's helped to kind one of the ways that it's helped to kind one of the ways that it's helped to kind of shift the way that I think is a of shift the way that I think is a of shift the way that I think is a leader I love that idea I I call that leader I love that idea I I call that leader I love that idea I I call that principle do the math because it's like principle do the math because it's like principle do the math because it's like in a church of a 100 there's 10 people in a church of a 100 there's 10 people in a church of a 100 there's 10 people well that's 10% you got 90% who are okay well that's 10% you got 90% who are okay well that's 10% you got 90% who are okay with it 10% who are not right and I

with it 10% who are not right and I with it 10% who are not right and I think that's so good I would love for think that's so good I would love for think that's so good I would love for you you know because you do know the you you know because you do know the you you know because you do know the church World well and we have a lot of church World well and we have a lot of church World well and we have a lot of church leaders listening a lot of church leaders listening a lot of church leaders listening a lot of Business Leaders like you who care about Business Leaders like you who care about Business Leaders like you who care about the church if you could improve the way the church if you could improve the way the church if you could improve the way churches run based on your time in churches run based on your time in churches run based on your time in Silicon Valley what are a couple of Silicon Valley what are a couple of Silicon Valley what are a couple of strategic recommendations SL changes strategic recommendations SL changes strategic recommendations SL changes you're you're waving your magic wand all you're you're waving your magic wand all you're you're waving your magic wand all of a sudden church is healthier SL of a sudden church is healthier SL of a sudden church is healthier SL better uh because of some of the the better uh because of some of the the better uh because of some of the the Leadership Lessons you've learned what Leadership Lessons you've learned what Leadership Lessons you've learned what are a couple of those that you think are a couple of those that you think are a couple of those that you think could directly apply to churches um well could directly apply to churches um well could directly apply to churches um well I'll start at the leadership level I'll start at the leadership level I'll start at the leadership level because I think what tends to happen is because I think what tends to happen is because I think what tends to happen is people like to go to the operational people like to go to the operational people like to go to the operational tactical side is like well I would tactical side is like well I would tactical side is like well I would implement this program and I would put implement this program and I would put implement this program and I would put in this software and it's like no um the in this software and it's like no um the in this software and it's like no um the first thing that I would strongly first thing that I would strongly first thing that I would strongly recommend is as a leader you have got to recommend is as a leader you have got to recommend is as a leader you have got to personally be very clear about what your personally be very clear about what your personally be very clear about what your vision Vis is for your organization vision Vis is for your organization vision Vis is for your organization because in the absence of clarity people because in the absence of clarity people because in the absence of clarity people fill in the blanks and so you wonder why fill in the blanks and so you wonder why fill in the blanks and so you wonder why you're like well I thought I did cast you're like well I thought I did cast you're like well I thought I did cast Vision I did cast Vision but we're not Vision I did cast Vision but we're not Vision I did cast Vision but we're not making progress on it chances are it's making progress on it chances are it's making progress on it chances are it's because there's a lack of clarity but because there's a lack of clarity but because there's a lack of clarity but how do you get to Clarity Clarity is not how do you get to Clarity Clarity is not how do you get to Clarity Clarity is not just standing on a platform and saying just standing on a platform and saying just standing on a platform and saying you know we're going to be a church of a you know we're going to be a church of a you know we're going to be a church of a thousand people in five years Clarity thousand people in five years Clarity thousand people in five years Clarity also has to do with the way the also has to do with the way the also has to do with the way the organization is structured so you know organization is structured so you know organization is structured so you know who is accountable for executing the who is accountable for executing the who is accountable for executing the vision um what are the roles who has

vision um what are the roles who has vision um what are the roles who has what role within the what role within the what role within the organization what what are the organization what what are the organization what what are the expectations of those roles I think as a expectations of those roles I think as a expectations of those roles I think as a leader we have to get really really leader we have to get really really leader we have to get really really clear about the role that everybody on clear about the role that everybody on clear about the role that everybody on the team plays um and we have to first the team plays um and we have to first the team plays um and we have to first be clear about what is it we're be clear about what is it we're be clear about what is it we're expecting the team to do what does expecting the team to do what does expecting the team to do what does success look like not just for the success look like not just for the success look like not just for the organization what does success look like organization what does success look like organization what does success look like for the roles supporting the vision for the roles supporting the vision for the roles supporting the vision many times we do we Implement a new many times we do we Implement a new many times we do we Implement a new vision a new strategy but we haven't vision a new strategy but we haven't vision a new strategy but we haven't taken the time to clarify the roles of taken the time to clarify the roles of taken the time to clarify the roles of each person on the team and how it Lads each person on the team and how it Lads each person on the team and how it Lads up to the strategy and I do think that up to the strategy and I do think that up to the strategy and I do think that part of the reason why we lack momentum part of the reason why we lack momentum part of the reason why we lack momentum in organizations is because we lack in organizations is because we lack in organizations is because we lack Clarity even at that that kind of Clarity even at that that kind of Clarity even at that that kind of structural level well you're tapping structural level well you're tapping structural level well you're tapping into an allergy that a lot of senior into an allergy that a lot of senior into an allergy that a lot of senior church leaders have which is definition church leaders have which is definition church leaders have which is definition Clarity position descriptions but I mean Clarity position descriptions but I mean Clarity position descriptions but I mean you were you were in the SE sweet you you were you were in the SE sweet you you were you were in the SE sweet you had a very senior position at had a very senior position at had a very senior position at meta what ha like what level of clarity meta what ha like what level of clarity meta what ha like what level of clarity did Mark Zuckerberg and Cheryl Sandberg did Mark Zuckerberg and Cheryl Sandberg did Mark Zuckerberg and Cheryl Sandberg and the team bring to your role and how and the team bring to your role and how and the team bring to your role and how was that helpful well every role and let was that helpful well every role and let was that helpful well every role and let me let me say there's there's two me let me say there's there's two me let me say there's there's two different versions of meta that I will different versions of meta that I will different versions of meta that I will say the first version of meta uh around say the first version of meta uh around say the first version of meta uh around the time that I was hired there was kind the time that I was hired there was kind the time that I was hired there was kind of just a hiring spree happening all of just a hiring spree happening all of just a hiring spree happening all right right so so the organization has right right so so the organization has right right so so the organization has definitely evolved to a place of more definitely evolved to a place of more definitely evolved to a place of more clarity when I was first hired and I clarity when I was first hired and I clarity when I was first hired and I think churches have done this too it was think churches have done this too it was think churches have done this too it was like let's just bring good people on the like let's just bring good people on the like let's just bring good people on the team they can figure out how to add team they can figure out how to add team they can figure out how to add value I don't know what they're doing I

value I don't know what they're doing I value I don't know what they're doing I don't know how they're going to do it don't know how they're going to do it don't know how they're going to do it but let's just bring them on the team but let's just bring them on the team but let's just bring them on the team and they'll figure it out well that and they'll figure it out well that and they'll figure it out well that unfortunately ended up not serving the unfortunately ended up not serving the unfortunately ended up not serving the organization because you have all these organization because you have all these organization because you have all these brilliant people who are just doing busy brilliant people who are just doing busy brilliant people who are just doing busy work because there's no clarity about work because there's no clarity about work because there's no clarity about how does my role serve the vision now how does my role serve the vision now how does my role serve the vision now you know enter into I would say 2021 you know enter into I would say 2021 you know enter into I would say 2021 2022 version of the company well now 2022 version of the company well now 2022 version of the company well now Mark is casting a vision for you know Mark is casting a vision for you know Mark is casting a vision for you know metaverse and now every single team has metaverse and now every single team has metaverse and now every single team has to figure out how do we serve the vision to figure out how do we serve the vision to figure out how do we serve the vision that he has now cast and the challenge that he has now cast and the challenge that he has now cast and the challenge for many teams is that they didn't so for many teams is that they didn't so for many teams is that they didn't so now you find yourself in a situation to now you find yourself in a situation to now you find yourself in a situation to where you're either going to have to where you're either going to have to where you're either going to have to figure out how to serve this very clear figure out how to serve this very clear figure out how to serve this very clear Vision or this is not going to be the Vision or this is not going to be the Vision or this is not going to be the organization for you and so for me organization for you and so for me organization for you and so for me that's where the clarity came in it came that's where the clarity came in it came that's where the clarity came in it came in Circa 2021 in Circa 2021 in Circa 2021 2022 um when markk got really clear 2022 um when markk got really clear 2022 um when markk got really clear about from a Marketplace standpoint we about from a Marketplace standpoint we about from a Marketplace standpoint we want to lead in the development of the want to lead in the development of the want to lead in the development of the metaverse the technology just the entire metaverse the technology just the entire metaverse the technology just the entire experience but again that took about experience but again that took about experience but again that took about four years for him to get there but once four years for him to get there but once four years for him to get there but once he got there and that's kind of sadly I he got there and that's kind of sadly I he got there and that's kind of sadly I think where you even saw like the think where you even saw like the think where you even saw like the layoffs and things happen because I layoffs and things happen because I layoffs and things happen because I think there was a recognition that the think there was a recognition that the think there was a recognition that the company became bloated with talent and company became bloated with talent and company became bloated with talent and some people might say that's a good some people might say that's a good some people might say that's a good problem it's not a good problem because problem it's not a good problem because problem it's not a good problem because now you have an issue where you can't now you have an issue where you can't now you have an issue where you can't invest resources in the vision because invest resources in the vision because invest resources in the vision because you have such a bloated staff that you have such a bloated staff that you have such a bloated staff that doesn't even know how to support the

doesn't even know how to support the doesn't even know how to support the vision so that's why those difficult vision so that's why those difficult vision so that's why those difficult decisions had to be made I think another decisions had to be made I think another decisions had to be made I think another thing that we I am thinking about a lot thing that we I am thinking about a lot thing that we I am thinking about a lot and this goes with AI this goes with and this goes with AI this goes with and this goes with AI this goes with meta it goes with X and Instagram and meta it goes with X and Instagram and meta it goes with X and Instagram and everything well Instagram is owned by everything well Instagram is owned by everything well Instagram is owned by meta is unintended consequences right meta is unintended consequences right meta is unintended consequences right Jonathan height has done some really Jonathan height has done some really Jonathan height has done some really important work on that in the last important work on that in the last important work on that in the last couple of years and just like we didn't couple of years and just like we didn't couple of years and just like we didn't know what this technology was going to know what this technology was going to know what this technology was going to do to our kids we didn't know what it do to our kids we didn't know what it do to our kids we didn't know what it would do to anxiety depression isolation would do to anxiety depression isolation would do to anxiety depression isolation loneliness we had no idea I'm thinking loneliness we had no idea I'm thinking loneliness we had no idea I'm thinking that in every leadership role there are that in every leadership role there are that in every leadership role there are unintended consequences and I'm unintended consequences and I'm unintended consequences and I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about wondering if you have any thoughts about wondering if you have any thoughts about unintended consequences and how it might unintended consequences and how it might unintended consequences and how it might apply to General apply to General apply to General leadership I'll get back to um the issue leadership I'll get back to um the issue leadership I'll get back to um the issue of clarity just because I've seen it in of clarity just because I've seen it in of clarity just because I've seen it in both Marketplace and Ministry is that both Marketplace and Ministry is that both Marketplace and Ministry is that when there is a lack of clarity there when there is a lack of clarity there when there is a lack of clarity there tends to be two things that happen tends to be two things that happen tends to be two things that happen within the the body of people following within the the body of people following within the the body of people following a leader um one there's there's uh a leader um one there's there's uh a leader um one there's there's uh there's there's uncomfortability because there's there's uncomfortability because there's there's uncomfortability because people thrive in Clarity so when there's people thrive in Clarity so when there's people thrive in Clarity so when there's not Clarity they become uncomfortable not Clarity they become uncomfortable not Clarity they become uncomfortable I've seen situations where people are I've seen situations where people are I've seen situations where people are like you know I think I need to leave I like you know I think I need to leave I like you know I think I need to leave I I don't really know what I'm doing I I don't really know what I'm doing I I don't really know what I'm doing I think people join organizations to add think people join organizations to add think people join organizations to add value and in the absence of clarity they value and in the absence of clarity they value and in the absence of clarity they don't know if they're adding value don't know if they're adding value don't know if they're adding value and so that creates this big question and so that creates this big question and so that creates this big question mark in their mind and they're kind of mark in their mind and they're kind of mark in their mind and they're kind of like I I don't think this is where I like I I don't think this is where I like I I don't think this is where I need to be so it creates discomfort it need to be so it creates discomfort it need to be so it creates discomfort it creates discomfort in the person who

creates discomfort in the person who creates discomfort in the person who doesn't understand what their role is um doesn't understand what their role is um doesn't understand what their role is um but I think secondly it it causes people but I think secondly it it causes people but I think secondly it it causes people to um what we call like sideways energy to um what we call like sideways energy to um what we call like sideways energy it causes people to expend sideways it causes people to expend sideways it causes people to expend sideways energy on things that are not aligned energy on things that are not aligned energy on things that are not aligned with what may be in your heart as a with what may be in your heart as a with what may be in your heart as a leader right so people may come up with leader right so people may come up with leader right so people may come up with ideas let's just say your vision is uh ideas let's just say your vision is uh ideas let's just say your vision is uh you know we want I'm just making this up you know we want I'm just making this up you know we want I'm just making this up you know as a church we want to solve you know as a church we want to solve you know as a church we want to solve the breast cancer crisis in our the breast cancer crisis in our the breast cancer crisis in our community just making this up okay community just making this up okay community just making this up okay that's a very specific Vision um but if that's a very specific Vision um but if that's a very specific Vision um but if you're not clear on what does success you're not clear on what does success you're not clear on what does success look like for that you may nobody ever look like for that you may nobody ever look like for that you may nobody ever has breast cancer again right right yeah has breast cancer again right right yeah has breast cancer again right right yeah like it's probably not probably not like it's probably not probably not like it's probably not probably not gonna happen yeah people will start to gonna happen yeah people will start to gonna happen yeah people will start to make up projects and programs and make up projects and programs and make up projects and programs and they'll start to do all types of things they'll start to do all types of things they'll start to do all types of things that may not align with what you that may not align with what you that may not align with what you actually intend and so that's why for me actually intend and so that's why for me actually intend and so that's why for me Clarity is job number one for a leader Clarity is job number one for a leader Clarity is job number one for a leader you have to be able to clearly you have to be able to clearly you have to be able to clearly articulate what is success for our articulate what is success for our articulate what is success for our organization what is success for your organization what is success for your organization what is success for your role um and I think that's that's why role um and I think that's that's why role um and I think that's that's why I'm harping on that because if you're I'm harping on that because if you're I'm harping on that because if you're not not not clear nothing else matters you know what clear nothing else matters you know what clear nothing else matters you know what and I mean I I've taught on this stuff and I mean I I've taught on this stuff and I mean I I've taught on this stuff but just yesterday one of our team but just yesterday one of our team but just yesterday one of our team members challenged me on Clarity and I members challenged me on Clarity and I members challenged me on Clarity and I thought I was perfectly clear and this thought I was perfectly clear and this thought I was perfectly clear and this morning spent a half hour writing a morning spent a half hour writing a morning spent a half hour writing a document outlining document outlining document outlining greater Clarity on the issue that we greater Clarity on the issue that we greater Clarity on the issue that we were talking about and I thought I was were talking about and I thought I was were talking about and I thought I was clear and then when he challenged me I'm clear and then when he challenged me I'm clear and then when he challenged me I'm kind of like oh yeah I wasn't kind of like oh yeah I wasn't kind of like oh yeah I wasn't clear was at least you have the humility

clear was at least you have the humility clear was at least you have the humility as a leader to admit that I I've as a leader to admit that I I've as a leader to admit that I I've actually um consulted with pastors who actually um consulted with pastors who actually um consulted with pastors who were like hey you know I think I need to were like hey you know I think I need to were like hey you know I think I need to change my organization I think I need to change my organization I think I need to change my organization I think I need to like let some people go and I was like like let some people go and I was like like let some people go and I was like really I said okay well let's sit down really I said okay well let's sit down really I said okay well let's sit down and talk about why you believe that and and talk about why you believe that and and talk about why you believe that and they would say things like well this they would say things like well this they would say things like well this person just isn't performing I just person just isn't performing I just person just isn't performing I just don't feel like I'm getting what I need don't feel like I'm getting what I need don't feel like I'm getting what I need get out of the person and my question get out of the person and my question get out of the person and my question was okay well how exactly did you was okay well how exactly did you was okay well how exactly did you articulate your expectations for their articulate your expectations for their articulate your expectations for their role and their answer was well you know role and their answer was well you know role and their answer was well you know they had a job description I mean there they had a job description I mean there they had a job description I mean there was an interview job description does was an interview job description does was an interview job description does not five years ago right yeah it's like not five years ago right yeah it's like not five years ago right yeah it's like how often are you meeting with them to how often are you meeting with them to how often are you meeting with them to to actually you know share your heart to actually you know share your heart to actually you know share your heart and clarify are they on track or off and clarify are they on track or off and clarify are they on track or off track and it was like well not not often track and it was like well not not often track and it was like well not not often and like well you're going to fire and like well you're going to fire and like well you're going to fire someone who isn't performing because you someone who isn't performing because you someone who isn't performing because you haven't LED them appropriately it's one haven't LED them appropriately it's one haven't LED them appropriately it's one thing if a person has been LED well and thing if a person has been LED well and thing if a person has been LED well and they just can't do the job it's another they just can't do the job it's another they just can't do the job it's another thing when they don't know what you're thing when they don't know what you're thing when they don't know what you're expecting what do you say and I'm not expecting what do you say and I'm not expecting what do you say and I'm not disagreeing with it all Nona but what do disagreeing with it all Nona but what do disagreeing with it all Nona but what do you say when people say well that's you say when people say well that's you say when people say well that's great but that's Silicon Valley you great but that's Silicon Valley you great but that's Silicon Valley you worked at a multi-billion trillion worked at a multi-billion trillion worked at a multi-billion trillion dollar company I'm a pastor I'm a dollar company I'm a pastor I'm a dollar company I'm a pastor I'm a Shepherd I don't do that stuff what's Shepherd I don't do that stuff what's Shepherd I don't do that stuff what's your response so my response would your response so my response would your response so my response would be an organization be an organization be an organization that just that just that just structurally is the same regardless of structurally is the same regardless of structurally is the same regardless of scale yeah you have a leader and you scale yeah you have a leader and you scale yeah you have a leader and you have have have followers and so if you are a pastor if

followers and so if you are a pastor if followers and so if you are a pastor if you are a Shepherd that means that you you are a Shepherd that means that you you are a Shepherd that means that you have a flock that is looking to you for have a flock that is looking to you for have a flock that is looking to you for protection they're looking to you for protection they're looking to you for protection they're looking to you for direction um there are things that are direction um there are things that are direction um there are things that are expected of you as the shepherd it's no expected of you as the shepherd it's no expected of you as the shepherd it's no different than a corporate context if different than a corporate context if different than a corporate context if you have employees they are looking to you have employees they are looking to you have employees they are looking to you for protection that could be you for protection that could be you for protection that could be financially that could be protection for financially that could be protection for financially that could be protection for their future they're looking to you for their future they're looking to you for their future they're looking to you for direction what are we doing as a company direction what are we doing as a company direction what are we doing as a company what are we doing as an organization what are we doing as an organization what are we doing as an organization it's the exact same principle because it's the exact same principle because it's the exact same principle because organizations are structured the same organizations are structured the same organizations are structured the same way organizations are no different than way organizations are no different than way organizations are no different than the way that our body is structured the way that our body is structured the way that our body is structured right we have a brain we have eyes we right we have a brain we have eyes we right we have a brain we have eyes we have ears we have limbs that's how have ears we have limbs that's how have ears we have limbs that's how organizations are structured as well so organizations are structured as well so organizations are structured as well so you as the leader you are the primary you as the leader you are the primary you as the leader you are the primary neurological unit of that organization neurological unit of that organization neurological unit of that organization ation that doesn't mean that you are the ation that doesn't mean that you are the ation that doesn't mean that you are the only one who thinks the only one who only one who thinks the only one who only one who thinks the only one who brings ideas but you are the one who brings ideas but you are the one who brings ideas but you are the one who sets the tone you're the one who's sets the tone you're the one who's sets the tone you're the one who's directing energy and effort um and directing energy and effort um and directing energy and effort um and that's the same regardless of the the that's the same regardless of the the that's the same regardless of the the organization type yeah totally agree I organization type yeah totally agree I organization type yeah totally agree I mean an organization should by by mean an organization should by by mean an organization should by by definition be organized and if you want definition be organized and if you want definition be organized and if you want to say well that's not biblical right I to say well that's not biblical right I to say well that's not biblical right I mean the word for Corporation is is body mean the word for Corporation is is body mean the word for Corporation is is body it's right that's it right that's it and it's right that's it right that's it and it's right that's it right that's it and so it's like yeah this has to be so it's like yeah this has to be so it's like yeah this has to be organized so I want to get a little more organized so I want to get a little more organized so I want to get a little more granular so you also have an affiliation granular so you also have an affiliation granular so you also have an affiliation with uver now and you're working with uver now and you're working with uver now and you're working full-time sort of at Nona jones.com but full-time sort of at Nona jones.com but full-time sort of at Nona jones.com but both meta and U version handle immense both meta and U version handle immense both meta and U version handle immense amounts of user data and even if you

amounts of user data and even if you amounts of user data and even if you have a small Church certainly if you have a small Church certainly if you have a small Church certainly if you have a church over a thousand you're have a church over a thousand you're have a church over a thousand you're dealing with so much data giving data dealing with so much data giving data dealing with so much data giving data people's personal information uh all people's personal information uh all people's personal information uh all that's cloud-based now nobody has like that's cloud-based now nobody has like that's cloud-based now nobody has like servers and their own proprietary servers and their own proprietary servers and their own proprietary software um how do you think about the software um how do you think about the software um how do you think about the ethical responsibility ethical responsibility ethical responsibility and what advice would you give to and what advice would you give to and what advice would you give to leaders about the ethical leaders about the ethical leaders about the ethical responsibilities of handling that much responsibilities of handling that much responsibilities of handling that much sensitive data oh man well I think we sensitive data oh man well I think we sensitive data oh man well I think we have to remember and and this is I mean have to remember and and this is I mean have to remember and and this is I mean this is scriptural right it's love your this is scriptural right it's love your this is scriptural right it's love your neighbor as yourself at the end of the neighbor as yourself at the end of the neighbor as yourself at the end of the day do you want your private information day do you want your private information day do you want your private information to be publicly available chances are no to be publicly available chances are no to be publicly available chances are no and so you have to regard people's and so you have to regard people's and so you have to regard people's information the same way you would information the same way you would information the same way you would regard your own um and I think if you regard your own um and I think if you regard your own um and I think if you just have that principle then the just have that principle then the just have that principle then the decisions that you make um will be in decisions that you make um will be in decisions that you make um will be in the best interest of the users the best the best interest of the users the best the best interest of the users the best interest of your your congregation the interest of your your congregation the interest of your your congregation the best interest of your uh customers um best interest of your uh customers um best interest of your uh customers um but yeah treat them the way that you but yeah treat them the way that you but yeah treat them the way that you would want to be treated and and I would would want to be treated and and I would would want to be treated and and I would assume that would be with the utmost assume that would be with the utmost assume that would be with the utmost privacy and security and that is an privacy and security and that is an privacy and security and that is an investment that has to be made I think investment that has to be made I think investment that has to be made I think sometimes at churches we do get focused sometimes at churches we do get focused sometimes at churches we do get focused on the front end like just give us you on the front end like just give us you on the front end like just give us you know give us the money give us the time know give us the money give us the time know give us the money give us the time give us the information but you also give us the information but you also give us the information but you also have to be equally ensi to the back end have to be equally ensi to the back end have to be equally ensi to the back end which is you want to make sure that which is you want to make sure that which is you want to make sure that people can trust you with what they're people can trust you with what they're people can trust you with what they're giving to you whether that's their giving to you whether that's their giving to you whether that's their financial information or their personal financial information or their personal financial information or their personal information yeah I think that's a good information yeah I think that's a good information yeah I think that's a good word you can't have your password being word you can't have your password being word you can't have your password being your password or 1 two three 4 right your password or 1 two three 4 right your password or 1 two three 4 right being your password we're Way Beyond

being your password we're Way Beyond being your password we're Way Beyond that we're Way Beyond password 95 like that we're Way Beyond password 95 like that we're Way Beyond password 95 like that that that exactly we got we got to do a little exactly we got we got to do a little exactly we got we got to do a little better than that um you know meta became better than that um you know meta became better than that um you know meta became an AI company um really if you look at an AI company um really if you look at an AI company um really if you look at it it was first web 3 and then I uh it it was first web 3 and then I uh it it was first web 3 and then I uh doing a lot in that work and you know doing a lot in that work and you know doing a lot in that work and you know you wrote a book called from social Min you wrote a book called from social Min you wrote a book called from social Min media to Social Ministry I know you've media to Social Ministry I know you've media to Social Ministry I know you've got your eye on this so it's been a got your eye on this so it's been a got your eye on this so it's been a little while since we talked about this little while since we talked about this little while since we talked about this when you think about the future of when you think about the future of when you think about the future of digital Ministry what are some key digital Ministry what are some key digital Ministry what are some key trends or technologies that you're trends or technologies that you're trends or technologies that you're seeing right now or even hoping you seeing right now or even hoping you seeing right now or even hoping you would see in the church yeah no I'm glad would see in the church yeah no I'm glad would see in the church yeah no I'm glad you brought AI up um because that is you brought AI up um because that is you brought AI up um because that is absolutely where technology is not only absolutely where technology is not only absolutely where technology is not only headed but where technology is um I'm headed but where technology is um I'm headed but where technology is um I'm I'm actually preparing a talk for um a I'm actually preparing a talk for um a I'm actually preparing a talk for um a college and one of the questions they college and one of the questions they college and one of the questions they asked was hey what do you kind of see as asked was hey what do you kind of see as asked was hey what do you kind of see as the future of AI and I was thinking the future of AI and I was thinking the future of AI and I was thinking about you know the Terminator if you about you know the Terminator if you about you know the Terminator if you remember uh so the Terminator came out remember uh so the Terminator came out remember uh so the Terminator came out in 1984 and uh the Terminator came back in 1984 and uh the Terminator came back in 1984 and uh the Terminator came back to 1984 from the year to 1984 from the year to 1984 from the year 2029 and so here we 2029 and so here we 2029 and so here we are we can almost smell that year right are we can almost smell that year right are we can almost smell that year right it's like it's like it's like you're like five years away from the you're like five years away from the you're like five years away from the Terminator um but I I do think that what Terminator um but I I do think that what Terminator um but I I do think that what we have to prepare ourselves for is that we have to prepare ourselves for is that we have to prepare ourselves for is that number one AI has been a part of our number one AI has been a part of our number one AI has been a part of our lives for a long long time it just it lives for a long long time it just it lives for a long long time it just it has I mean even at meta you know

has I mean even at meta you know has I mean even at meta you know everything from machine learning and you everything from machine learning and you everything from machine learning and you know you think about ad recommendations know you think about ad recommendations know you think about ad recommendations and all of that like that that's been and all of that like that that's been and all of that like that that's been powered by AI for for years and so what powered by AI for for years and so what powered by AI for for years and so what we're kind of thinking about now is this we're kind of thinking about now is this we're kind of thinking about now is this autonomous AI where it actually kind of autonomous AI where it actually kind of autonomous AI where it actually kind of thinks on its own and oh gosh what does thinks on its own and oh gosh what does thinks on its own and oh gosh what does that mean for the future of our world I that mean for the future of our world I that mean for the future of our world I think that we just have to as a body we think that we just have to as a body we think that we just have to as a body we have to keep our eyes on it and what I'm have to keep our eyes on it and what I'm have to keep our eyes on it and what I'm encouraging people to do is there's so encouraging people to do is there's so encouraging people to do is there's so many free resources available whether many free resources available whether many free resources available whether it's through your platform YouTube uh it's through your platform YouTube uh it's through your platform YouTube uh there's missional ai.com um there's so there's missional ai.com um there's so there's missional ai.com um there's so many free resources stay on top of these many free resources stay on top of these many free resources stay on top of these things because no matter what I tell you things because no matter what I tell you things because no matter what I tell you right now within the next 10 minutes right now within the next 10 minutes right now within the next 10 minutes it's going to be it's going to be it's going to be different so I'm just encouraging people different so I'm just encouraging people different so I'm just encouraging people to use these free resources ources and to use these free resources ources and to use these free resources ources and platforms because there's so much platforms because there's so much platforms because there's so much generative Ai and Technology that's generative Ai and Technology that's generative Ai and Technology that's developing um that it's mindblowing but developing um that it's mindblowing but developing um that it's mindblowing but we do have to have at least a base level we do have to have at least a base level we do have to have at least a base level knowledge and I do encourage pastors as knowledge and I do encourage pastors as knowledge and I do encourage pastors as well um be aware don't don't be so quick well um be aware don't don't be so quick well um be aware don't don't be so quick to Outsource your technological to Outsource your technological to Outsource your technological understanding to the young people on understanding to the young people on understanding to the young people on your staff at least have your have a your staff at least have your have a your staff at least have your have a working knowledge of what's emerging and working knowledge of what's emerging and working knowledge of what's emerging and what's evolving so that when people are what's evolving so that when people are what's evolving so that when people are talking to you about you're not just talking to you about you're not just talking to you about you're not just like a deer in the headlights that's like a deer in the headlights that's like a deer in the headlights that's when it becomes a problem is when you when it becomes a problem is when you when it becomes a problem is when you can't even have the conversation that's can't even have the conversation that's can't even have the conversation that's when people can actually Lead You astray when people can actually Lead You astray when people can actually Lead You astray I think I think it's starting to change I think I think it's starting to change I think I think it's starting to change too in the art of leadership academy too in the art of leadership academy too in the art of leadership academy that we run I had a little conversation that we run I had a little conversation that we run I had a little conversation going about Ai and like some of the

going about Ai and like some of the going about Ai and like some of the users pastors these are Pastors in their users pastors these are Pastors in their users pastors these are Pastors in their 30s and 40s are leaving their prompts in 30s and 40s are leaving their prompts in 30s and 40s are leaving their prompts in the chat the private chat that we've got the chat the private chat that we've got the chat the private chat that we've got going on in the academy and they're going on in the academy and they're going on in the academy and they're pretty impressive like stuff that I pretty impressive like stuff that I pretty impressive like stuff that I don't think church leaders would have don't think church leaders would have don't think church leaders would have been doing a year ago they're doing now been doing a year ago they're doing now been doing a year ago they're doing now and they're not like AI employees or and they're not like AI employees or and they're not like AI employees or anything you know I love it so but anything you know I love it so but anything you know I love it so but that's kudos to you I mean that's kudos that's kudos to you I mean that's kudos that's kudos to you I mean that's kudos to you um my friend Kenny Jen and and to you um my friend Kenny Jen and and to you um my friend Kenny Jen and and just Ken who was amazing like just kind just Ken who was amazing like just kind just Ken who was amazing like just kind of sounding the trumpet and being like of sounding the trumpet and being like of sounding the trumpet and being like look it's an opportunity and we have to look it's an opportunity and we have to look it's an opportunity and we have to be aware of the opportunity I will also be aware of the opportunity I will also be aware of the opportunity I will also say I know some people have said you say I know some people have said you say I know some people have said you know AI is going to be the end of the know AI is going to be the end of the know AI is going to be the end of the world um because they they think about world um because they they think about world um because they they think about again the Terminator they think about again the Terminator they think about again the Terminator they think about the Matrix and I'm just like listen guys the Matrix and I'm just like listen guys the Matrix and I'm just like listen guys Acts chapter 2 this is this is something Acts chapter 2 this is this is something Acts chapter 2 this is this is something that I I like to share in these contexts that I I like to share in these contexts that I I like to share in these contexts if you think about it acts chapter 2 so if you think about it acts chapter 2 so if you think about it acts chapter 2 so day of Pentecost there's these 120 day of Pentecost there's these 120 day of Pentecost there's these 120 Galilean Jews they're gathered in the Galilean Jews they're gathered in the Galilean Jews they're gathered in the upper room and you know uh the Bible upper room and you know uh the Bible upper room and you know uh the Bible says that you know tongues of fire came says that you know tongues of fire came says that you know tongues of fire came the Holy Spirit descended on them and the Holy Spirit descended on them and the Holy Spirit descended on them and they began to declare the wonders of God they began to declare the wonders of God they began to declare the wonders of God in in unknown tongues right so there's in in unknown tongues right so there's in in unknown tongues right so there's these other Jews walking around outside these other Jews walking around outside these other Jews walking around outside the room and they're like who are these the room and they're like who are these the room and they're like who are these galileans declaring the wonders of God galileans declaring the wonders of God galileans declaring the wonders of God in our language right well if you think in our language right well if you think in our language right well if you think about what that is that's essentially about what that is that's essentially about what that is that's essentially the holy spirit being the very first the holy spirit being the very first the holy spirit being the very first Google translate that's what that's what Google translate that's what that's what Google translate that's what that's what happened okay and so God is happened okay and so God is happened okay and so God is demonstrating what can happen when demonstrating what can happen when demonstrating what can happen when technology is used for his purpose and technology is used for his purpose and technology is used for his purpose and so instead of us being like it's the end so instead of us being like it's the end so instead of us being like it's the end of the world the question we have to ask of the world the question we have to ask of the world the question we have to ask ourselves is how can God use me how can

ourselves is how can God use me how can ourselves is how can God use me how can I use this technology to fulfill my I use this technology to fulfill my I use this technology to fulfill my purpose because it's not going away even purpose because it's not going away even purpose because it's not going away even if we say it's going to you know if we say it's going to you know if we say it's going to you know everything's going to die it's it's everything's going to die it's it's everything's going to die it's it's going to end it's not going away so now going to end it's not going away so now going to end it's not going away so now we have to figure out how do we use this we have to figure out how do we use this we have to figure out how do we use this for for the purpose of what we were for for the purpose of what we were for for the purpose of what we were created to do well we covered a lot in created to do well we covered a lot in created to do well we covered a lot in our conversation is there a question our conversation is there a question our conversation is there a question that we haven't covered or a topic we that we haven't covered or a topic we that we haven't covered or a topic we haven't covered that you would like to haven't covered that you would like to haven't covered that you would like to explore before we wrap up you know just explore before we wrap up you know just explore before we wrap up you know just I I would let uh leaders know so um I'm I I would let uh leaders know so um I'm I I would let uh leaders know so um I'm releasing a new book called The Gift of releasing a new book called The Gift of releasing a new book called The Gift of rejection and it's coming out really rejection and it's coming out really rejection and it's coming out really soon um and it's something that I think soon um and it's something that I think soon um and it's something that I think is so important for leaders to read is so important for leaders to read is so important for leaders to read Because I do know that there are a lot Because I do know that there are a lot Because I do know that there are a lot of leaders who are walking around um of leaders who are walking around um of leaders who are walking around um feeling empty and you don't have a name feeling empty and you don't have a name feeling empty and you don't have a name for why but part of the emptiness has to for why but part of the emptiness has to for why but part of the emptiness has to do with rejection wounds um whether that do with rejection wounds um whether that do with rejection wounds um whether that is because you know members of your is because you know members of your is because you know members of your church who you Faithfully served they church who you Faithfully served they church who you Faithfully served they abandoned you or it could be because you abandoned you or it could be because you abandoned you or it could be because you know people that you built a company an know people that you built a company an know people that you built a company an organization with um they they hurt you organization with um they they hurt you organization with um they they hurt you they humiliated you they spread lies they humiliated you they spread lies they humiliated you they spread lies about you it could even be as personal about you it could even be as personal about you it could even be as personal as you know maybe your spouse or your as you know maybe your spouse or your as you know maybe your spouse or your significant other you know they they significant other you know they they significant other you know they they left you for somebody else and and those left you for somebody else and and those left you for somebody else and and those are serious wounds that affect the way are serious wounds that affect the way are serious wounds that affect the way that we show up as Leaders so we have to that we show up as Leaders so we have to that we show up as Leaders so we have to deal with that um instead of saying oh deal with that um instead of saying oh deal with that um instead of saying oh I'm over it that happened so long ago I'm over it that happened so long ago I'm over it that happened so long ago I'm over it no as I said earlier that I'm over it no as I said earlier that I'm over it no as I said earlier that the pain that we don't deal with doesn't

the pain that we don't deal with doesn't the pain that we don't deal with doesn't go away it just seeks out of us and so go away it just seeks out of us and so go away it just seeks out of us and so you wonder why you're so irritable um you wonder why you're so irritable um you wonder why you're so irritable um you wonder why you back to our you wonder why you back to our you wonder why you back to our conversation about exploding into achiev conversation about exploding into achiev conversation about exploding into achiev why nothing is ever enough well part of why nothing is ever enough well part of why nothing is ever enough well part of it is because um there's a rejection it is because um there's a rejection it is because um there's a rejection wound within you that hasn't been wound within you that hasn't been wound within you that hasn't been addressed and so yeah I would just addressed and so yeah I would just addressed and so yeah I would just encourage leaders to to check out the encourage leaders to to check out the encourage leaders to to check out the book The Gift of rejection and um I hope book The Gift of rejection and um I hope book The Gift of rejection and um I hope that it it's a blessing for them yeah that it it's a blessing for them yeah that it it's a blessing for them yeah you know what I I was just going to say you know what I I was just going to say you know what I I was just going to say if you hadn't referenced Back The if you hadn't referenced Back The if you hadn't referenced Back The Emptiness and the the drive part of our Emptiness and the the drive part of our Emptiness and the the drive part of our conversation I think that comes from conversation I think that comes from conversation I think that comes from rejection I'm wrestling with a quote rejection I'm wrestling with a quote rejection I'm wrestling with a quote from Simone wheel who said all sins are from Simone wheel who said all sins are from Simone wheel who said all sins are attempts to Phil voids I read that and attempts to Phil voids I read that and attempts to Phil voids I read that and I'm like o o that is that is so true I'm like o o that is that is so true I'm like o o that is that is so true well Nona's new book is called the gift well Nona's new book is called the gift well Nona's new book is called the gift of rejection it's available everywhere of rejection it's available everywhere of rejection it's available everywhere Nona best place to hang out with you Nona best place to hang out with you Nona best place to hang out with you online these days you're always you're online these days you're always you're online these days you're always you're always starting something new every time always starting something new every time always starting something new every time we talk it's like boom something new we talk it's like boom something new we talk it's like boom something new from Nona um you know well you can find from Nona um you know well you can find from Nona um you know well you can find me on any social platform my handle is me on any social platform my handle is me on any social platform my handle is Nona not Nora well it's not any I'm on H Nona not Nora well it's not any I'm on H Nona not Nora well it's not any I'm on H Facebook Instagram uh and YouTube I'm Facebook Instagram uh and YouTube I'm Facebook Instagram uh and YouTube I'm not on X I have a Tik Tok but I don't not on X I have a Tik Tok but I don't not on X I have a Tik Tok but I don't ever up anything there so yeah same same ever up anything there so yeah same same ever up anything there so yeah same same that's me on tip Tock but Tik Tok yeah that's me on tip Tock but Tik Tok yeah that's me on tip Tock but Tik Tok yeah so but yeah you can find me on any of so but yeah you can find me on any of so but yeah you can find me on any of those social platforms um and it's those social platforms um and it's those social platforms um and it's always great to hang out with you Carrie always great to hang out with you Carrie always great to hang out with you Carrie thank you all right thanks Nona