AI Questions Leaders Never Ask: AI Girlfriends, Truth, Deepfakes, and Best + Worst Case Scenarios

Hey, before we dive in, you're about to Hey, before we dive in, you're about to hear a really meaningful conversation hear a really meaningful conversation hear a really meaningful conversation with JP Palter. JP is an extremely with JP Palter. JP is an extremely with JP Palter. JP is an extremely helpful voice when it comes to helpful voice when it comes to helpful voice when it comes to technology and leadership. I think technology and leadership. I think technology and leadership. I think you're going to get a lot out of this you're going to get a lot out of this you're going to get a lot out of this one. So, if this topic is on your mind one. So, if this topic is on your mind one. So, if this topic is on your mind right now, as it is, I hope for most right now, as it is, I hope for most right now, as it is, I hope for most church leaders, I want to point you to church leaders, I want to point you to church leaders, I want to point you to my new book, AI in the Future Church. It my new book, AI in the Future Church. It my new book, AI in the Future Church. It is the playbook for the moment we're in. is the playbook for the moment we're in. is the playbook for the moment we're in. There are three shifts I believe every There are three shifts I believe every There are three shifts I believe every church leader needs to make in the years church leader needs to make in the years church leader needs to make in the years ahead. The book is practical. It's ahead. The book is practical. It's ahead. The book is practical. It's specific and it's grounded in what's specific and it's grounded in what's specific and it's grounded in what's actually happening right now because I actually happening right now because I actually happening right now because I think as the world becomes more think as the world becomes more think as the world becomes more artificial, the church needs to become artificial, the church needs to become artificial, the church needs to become more human. And you and your church have more human. And you and your church have more human. And you and your church have one of the greatest opportunities ahead one of the greatest opportunities ahead one of the greatest opportunities ahead of you. You're actually trained for of you. You're actually trained for of you. You're actually trained for this. Okay, we just need to figure out this. Okay, we just need to figure out this. Okay, we just need to figure out what to do to respond to AI. The book what to do to respond to AI. The book what to do to respond to AI. The book releases September 15th, but everyone releases September 15th, but everyone releases September 15th, but everyone who pre-orders before September 15th who pre-orders before September 15th who pre-orders before September 15th gets the full executive summary of the gets the full executive summary of the gets the full executive summary of the book. It's beautifully designed. It's book. It's beautifully designed. It's book. It's beautifully designed. It's the three shifts distilled into a the three shifts distilled into a the three shifts distilled into a document you can read in one sitting and document you can read in one sitting and document you can read in one sitting and bring straight to your team and you get bring straight to your team and you get bring straight to your team and you get the audio book completely free. By the the audio book completely free. By the the audio book completely free. By the way, I read the audio book. After the way, I read the audio book. After the way, I read the audio book. After the 14th, those bonuses are gone. And if you 14th, those bonuses are gone. And if you 14th, those bonuses are gone. And if you lead a team, this is the time to order lead a team, this is the time to order lead a team, this is the time to order copies for your staff or your board. You copies for your staff or your board. You copies for your staff or your board. You want to read this together? It's going want to read this together? It's going want to read this together? It's going to change how you preach. It's going to to change how you preach. It's going to to change how you preach. It's going to change how you lead in 2027. So, how do change how you lead in 2027. So, how do change how you lead in 2027. So, how do you get it? Click the link in the you get it? Click the link in the you get it? Click the link in the description of this episode. Enjoy the description of this episode. Enjoy the description of this episode. Enjoy the conversation with JP. I can't wait to conversation with JP. I can't wait to conversation with JP. I can't wait to get this book in your hands. When in

get this book in your hands. When in get this book in your hands. When in human history have we eliminated sin, human history have we eliminated sin, human history have we eliminated sin, fear, and greed? fear, and greed? fear, and greed? >> Never. >> Never. >> Never. >> Not recently. >> Not recently. >> Not recently. >> Not recently. Not recently. We're not >> Not recently. Not recently. We're not >> Not recently. Not recently. We're not doing particularly well on it in the doing particularly well on it in the doing particularly well on it in the 2020s. So, yes, maybe it can do some 2020s. So, yes, maybe it can do some 2020s. So, yes, maybe it can do some amazing things. And I think some of that amazing things. And I think some of that amazing things. And I think some of that probably is going to come true, but it probably is going to come true, but it probably is going to come true, but it really doesn't account for human sin. really doesn't account for human sin. really doesn't account for human sin. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. Hey, I've been looking joined us today. Hey, I've been looking joined us today. Hey, I've been looking forward to it. We are kicking off a forward to it. We are kicking off a forward to it. We are kicking off a multi-part series on AI and the future multi-part series on AI and the future multi-part series on AI and the future church. A couple years ago, I started church. A couple years ago, I started church. A couple years ago, I started really researching artificial really researching artificial really researching artificial intelligence. And to be honest, I was intelligence. And to be honest, I was intelligence. And to be honest, I was doing it because I wanted to get better doing it because I wanted to get better doing it because I wanted to get better at prompting and, you know, kind of at prompting and, you know, kind of at prompting and, you know, kind of figure out what was going on. But the figure out what was going on. But the figure out what was going on. But the deeper I got into it, the more I deeper I got into it, the more I deeper I got into it, the more I thought, why is nobody talking about thought, why is nobody talking about thought, why is nobody talking about some of the issues I'm uncovering? some of the issues I'm uncovering? some of the issues I'm uncovering? [music] And then I did a deep dive over [music] And then I did a deep dive over [music] And then I did a deep dive over the last 15 months of what the impact of the last 15 months of what the impact of the last 15 months of what the impact of AI was going to be potentially on the AI was going to be potentially on the AI was going to be potentially on the culture. And out of it came this series culture. And out of it came this series culture. And out of it came this series and a book. It's called AI in the Future and a book. It's called AI in the Future and a book. It's called AI in the Future Church. I actually just got this book in Church. I actually just got this book in Church. I actually just got this book in my hand today. AI in the Future Church.

my hand today. AI in the Future Church. my hand today. AI in the Future Church. Make your ministry irreplaceable in a Make your ministry irreplaceable in a Make your ministry irreplaceable in a world of artificial everything. So the world of artificial everything. So the world of artificial everything. So the TLDDR, I think the church is perfectly TLDDR, I think the church is perfectly TLDDR, I think the church is perfectly positioned to have its best era ever in positioned to have its best era ever in positioned to have its best era ever in the world of AI. We're moving into the the world of AI. We're moving into the the world of AI. We're moving into the AI era. Kind of we're already there and AI era. Kind of we're already there and AI era. Kind of we're already there and we're going to unpack that. So today I'm we're going to unpack that. So today I'm we're going to unpack that. So today I'm going to flip the mic and I'm going to going to flip the mic and I'm going to going to flip the mic and I'm going to have James Poulter, JP as we call him, have James Poulter, JP as we call him, have James Poulter, JP as we call him, interview me and we're going to unpack interview me and we're going to unpack interview me and we're going to unpack some of the ideas I cover in the book. some of the ideas I cover in the book. some of the ideas I cover in the book. Definitely not all of them. Uh there's a Definitely not all of them. Uh there's a Definitely not all of them. Uh there's a lot to talk about, but even if you're lot to talk about, but even if you're lot to talk about, but even if you're not an AI person, you're like, I'm not not an AI person, you're like, I'm not not an AI person, you're like, I'm not really using it, or you're really into really using it, or you're really into really using it, or you're really into prompting and you're best in the world, prompting and you're best in the world, prompting and you're best in the world, what we're going to talk about is a what we're going to talk about is a what we're going to talk about is a little bit of that, but a lot about the little bit of that, but a lot about the little bit of that, but a lot about the potential impact of AI. What's it going potential impact of AI. What's it going potential impact of AI. What's it going to do to the human soul? What's it going to do to the human soul? What's it going to do to the human soul? What's it going to do to the people you love in your to do to the people you love in your to do to the people you love in your church? What might it do to the people church? What might it do to the people church? What might it do to the people in your community? That's in terms of in your community? That's in terms of in your community? That's in terms of employment, in terms of mental health, employment, in terms of mental health, employment, in terms of mental health, in terms of a need for community, in in terms of a need for community, in in terms of a need for community, in terms of truth and deep fakes and AI terms of truth and deep fakes and AI terms of truth and deep fakes and AI resurrection and a whole lot more. A lot resurrection and a whole lot more. A lot resurrection and a whole lot more. A lot of things that honestly of things that honestly of things that honestly not enough people are talking about in not enough people are talking about in not enough people are talking about in the world, but also in the church. And I the world, but also in the church. And I the world, but also in the church. And I think if we can just elevate these think if we can just elevate these think if we can just elevate these issues, you're going to have a much issues, you're going to have a much issues, you're going to have a much better understanding of artificial better understanding of artificial better understanding of artificial intelligence and the implications of AI intelligence and the implications of AI intelligence and the implications of AI for humanity. And again, some of this for humanity. And again, some of this for humanity. And again, some of this stuff is hard to hear, but there's hope stuff is hard to hear, but there's hope stuff is hard to hear, but there's hope because I think it's going to position because I think it's going to position because I think it's going to position the church to have our best era ever if the church to have our best era ever if the church to have our best era ever if we're ready. And this series and the we're ready. And this series and the we're ready. And this series and the book is designed to get you ready. So, book is designed to get you ready. So, book is designed to get you ready. So, who's JP? James Palter is a who's JP? James Palter is a who's JP? James Palter is a distinguished marketing professional and

distinguished marketing professional and distinguished marketing professional and technology expert with a particular technology expert with a particular technology expert with a particular emphasis on conversational AI strategy emphasis on conversational AI strategy emphasis on conversational AI strategy and the CEO and co-founder of Vixen and the CEO and co-founder of Vixen and the CEO and co-founder of Vixen Labs. He's a recognized authority, Labs. He's a recognized authority, Labs. He's a recognized authority, speaks all over the UK and all over speaks all over the UK and all over speaks all over the UK and all over America and around the world. He is an America and around the world. He is an America and around the world. He is an adviser to the Church of England's adviser to the Church of England's adviser to the Church of England's digital board and offer support to digital board and offer support to digital board and offer support to various charities, entrepreneurs, and various charities, entrepreneurs, and various charities, entrepreneurs, and startups, often providing insights on startups, often providing insights on startups, often providing insights on the ethical implications of the ethical implications of the ethical implications of conversational AI technologies. So, we conversational AI technologies. So, we conversational AI technologies. So, we flipped the mic today. JP was on as a flipped the mic today. JP was on as a flipped the mic today. JP was on as a guest before, but today he's guest before, but today he's guest before, but today he's interviewing me and we're getting ready interviewing me and we're getting ready interviewing me and we're getting ready to really open up a conversation, not to really open up a conversation, not to really open up a conversation, not just on this podcast, but I hope in the just on this podcast, but I hope in the just on this podcast, but I hope in the church as a whole on AI and the future church as a whole on AI and the future church as a whole on AI and the future church. So, with that said, let's dive church. So, with that said, let's dive church. So, with that said, let's dive into my conversation with JP into my conversation with JP into my conversation with JP >> Carrie. When it comes to AI, why should >> Carrie. When it comes to AI, why should >> Carrie. When it comes to AI, why should the church even care at this point? the church even care at this point? the church even care at this point? >> What should they do about it? Sure. >> What should they do about it? Sure. >> What should they do about it? Sure. >> Everybody's using it, right? So, pretty >> Everybody's using it, right? So, pretty >> Everybody's using it, right? So, pretty much everybody. It was interesting JP, much everybody. It was interesting JP, much everybody. It was interesting JP, you and I have tracked for a few years you and I have tracked for a few years you and I have tracked for a few years and like in 2023 there was a a and like in 2023 there was a a and like in 2023 there was a a measurable percentage of people who measurable percentage of people who measurable percentage of people who thought it was of the devil and I'm thought it was of the devil and I'm thought it was of the devil and I'm never touching it, etc. And whether never touching it, etc. And whether never touching it, etc. And whether you're intentionally using it or not, you're intentionally using it or not, you're intentionally using it or not, the metaphor kind of is AI is the metaphor kind of is AI is the metaphor kind of is AI is electricity. Like it's baked into your electricity. Like it's baked into your electricity. Like it's baked into your Spotify, Netflix, Google Maps, um, into Spotify, Netflix, Google Maps, um, into Spotify, Netflix, Google Maps, um, into most of the apps you're using daytoday.

most of the apps you're using daytoday. most of the apps you're using daytoday. And then of course there's a second And then of course there's a second And then of course there's a second layer where you're like yeah I'm using layer where you're like yeah I'm using layer where you're like yeah I'm using chatgpt or claude etc. But the chatgpt or claude etc. But the chatgpt or claude etc. But the conversation's really shifted and people conversation's really shifted and people conversation's really shifted and people are talking about you know what prompts are talking about you know what prompts are talking about you know what prompts I was talking to a leading megaurch I was talking to a leading megaurch I was talking to a leading megaurch pastor last night who like has fed pastor last night who like has fed pastor last night who like has fed almost all of his content into AI and almost all of his content into AI and almost all of his content into AI and he's smart. I mean he's a super sharp he's smart. I mean he's a super sharp he's smart. I mean he's a super sharp guy. It's uh it's really producing great guy. It's uh it's really producing great guy. It's uh it's really producing great results for him. So I think that results for him. So I think that results for him. So I think that adoption curve and you look at the Bara adoption curve and you look at the Bara adoption curve and you look at the Bara data data data >> um Christian evangelicals in the US are >> um Christian evangelicals in the US are >> um Christian evangelicals in the US are the most enthusiastic about AI and the the most enthusiastic about AI and the the most enthusiastic about AI and the earliest adopters like more than earliest adopters like more than earliest adopters like more than atheists more than um than than atheists more than um than than atheists more than um than than non-Christians uh you know non-Christians uh you know non-Christians uh you know non-practising Christians. So, it's non-practising Christians. So, it's non-practising Christians. So, it's really interesting. Everyone's using it, really interesting. Everyone's using it, really interesting. Everyone's using it, but my my conviction became it's we're but my my conviction became it's we're but my my conviction became it's we're all asking the wrong question. And the all asking the wrong question. And the all asking the wrong question. And the question is not what prompts are you question is not what prompts are you question is not what prompts are you using and how are you making this more using and how are you making this more using and how are you making this more effective, but I think the right effective, but I think the right effective, but I think the right question is what impact could this have question is what impact could this have question is what impact could this have on humanity and what impact is it having on humanity and what impact is it having on humanity and what impact is it having on humanity? And that's when I decided on humanity? And that's when I decided on humanity? And that's when I decided to write AI in the future church because to write AI in the future church because to write AI in the future church because I wanted to answer that second question.

I wanted to answer that second question. I wanted to answer that second question. Yeah, you know, let's talk prompts all Yeah, you know, let's talk prompts all Yeah, you know, let's talk prompts all day long. I mean, you started and sold day long. I mean, you started and sold day long. I mean, you started and sold an AI company. You are on the tech front an AI company. You are on the tech front an AI company. You are on the tech front lines, which is one of the reasons I lines, which is one of the reasons I lines, which is one of the reasons I wanted you to interview me. You wanted you to interview me. You wanted you to interview me. You understand the industry beautifully, but understand the industry beautifully, but understand the industry beautifully, but I think there are deeper questions that I think there are deeper questions that I think there are deeper questions that are just not getting enough airtime. I'm are just not getting enough airtime. I'm are just not getting enough airtime. I'm hearing drips and drabs of it in the hearing drips and drabs of it in the hearing drips and drabs of it in the secular culture. I'm hearing almost secular culture. I'm hearing almost secular culture. I'm hearing almost nothing in the church. And that's why I nothing in the church. And that's why I nothing in the church. And that's why I care. care. care. >> Well, let let's unpack that. So, you >> Well, let let's unpack that. So, you >> Well, let let's unpack that. So, you know, people in the church are using it. know, people in the church are using it. know, people in the church are using it. That's, you know, as you say, that's That's, you know, as you say, that's That's, you know, as you say, that's obvious. I mean, it I can't go to a obvious. I mean, it I can't go to a obvious. I mean, it I can't go to a dinner party or have a conversation in a dinner party or have a conversation in a dinner party or have a conversation in a coffee shop or you get my way through, coffee shop or you get my way through, coffee shop or you get my way through, you know, kind of most mornings without you know, kind of most mornings without you know, kind of most mornings without someone asking me about what's going on someone asking me about what's going on someone asking me about what's going on in AI right now. It's it's in the ether in AI right now. It's it's in the ether in AI right now. It's it's in the ether so um so much. But when you dig a little so um so much. But when you dig a little so um so much. But when you dig a little bit deeper, you know, maybe you've got a bit deeper, you know, maybe you've got a bit deeper, you know, maybe you've got a megaurch pastor who's putting everything megaurch pastor who's putting everything megaurch pastor who's putting everything he's got into AI right now, but most he's got into AI right now, but most he's got into AI right now, but most people seem to be treating it, in my people seem to be treating it, in my people seem to be treating it, in my experience, like Google. How um how far experience, like Google. How um how far experience, like Google. How um how far along the path are we? Like is this the along the path are we? Like is this the along the path are we? Like is this the end of the beginning? Like are we is end of the beginning? Like are we is end of the beginning? Like are we is this as immature as you think this thing this as immature as you think this thing this as immature as you think this thing is going to get? Like just talk help is going to get? Like just talk help is going to get? Like just talk help frame for us where we are in the now frame for us where we are in the now frame for us where we are in the now before we kind of get into the future before we kind of get into the future before we kind of get into the future church. where where are where are the church. where where are where are the church. where where are where are the church really using it?

church really using it? church really using it? >> I'll give you my take, but then I'd love >> I'll give you my take, but then I'd love >> I'll give you my take, but then I'd love to hear what you think because this is to hear what you think because this is to hear what you think because this is what I'm about to share is pretty what I'm about to share is pretty what I'm about to share is pretty actively debated. I think Demisabas, actively debated. I think Demisabas, actively debated. I think Demisabas, co-founder of Google Deep Mind, said it co-founder of Google Deep Mind, said it co-founder of Google Deep Mind, said it really well. He said he thinks the AI really well. He said he thinks the AI really well. He said he thinks the AI revolution is going to be 10 times revolution is going to be 10 times revolution is going to be 10 times bigger and 10 times faster than the bigger and 10 times faster than the bigger and 10 times faster than the industrial revolution. And I think he's industrial revolution. And I think he's industrial revolution. And I think he's right. If you look at the changes and right. If you look at the changes and right. If you look at the changes and you're right, it's kind of like how do you're right, it's kind of like how do you're right, it's kind of like how do most people use their laptops? Answer, most people use their laptops? Answer, most people use their laptops? Answer, we're using 1 to 10% of its we're using 1 to 10% of its we're using 1 to 10% of its capabilities. I mean, yeah, capabilities. I mean, yeah, capabilities. I mean, yeah, >> at the end of the day, I'm doing some >> at the end of the day, I'm doing some >> at the end of the day, I'm doing some email, watching some videos, and email, watching some videos, and email, watching some videos, and creating some content, but like your creating some content, but like your creating some content, but like your laptop can do so much more. I could laptop can do so much more. I could laptop can do so much more. I could computer animate uh a Hollywood feature. computer animate uh a Hollywood feature. computer animate uh a Hollywood feature. Like, I could do that off my computer. I Like, I could do that off my computer. I Like, I could do that off my computer. I don't. And I think the same thing is don't. And I think the same thing is don't. And I think the same thing is happening with AI. So on the one hand, happening with AI. So on the one hand, happening with AI. So on the one hand, you're like, "Yeah, it's a really you're like, "Yeah, it's a really you're like, "Yeah, it's a really convenient Google. On the other hand, I convenient Google. On the other hand, I convenient Google. On the other hand, I mean, the valuations of Open AI and mean, the valuations of Open AI and mean, the valuations of Open AI and Anthropic are pushing a trillion dollars Anthropic are pushing a trillion dollars Anthropic are pushing a trillion dollars because what they're really targeting, because what they're really targeting, because what they're really targeting, and they've said this publicly, is the and they've said this publicly, is the and they've said this publicly, is the $16 trillion US job market that they're $16 trillion US job market that they're $16 trillion US job market that they're seeking to automate. The number one um seeking to automate. The number one um seeking to automate. The number one um employer in America is people who drive employer in America is people who drive employer in America is people who drive vehicles. So that's everything from Uber vehicles. So that's everything from Uber vehicles. So that's everything from Uber to semitrs to UPS to the postal service to semitrs to UPS to the postal service to semitrs to UPS to the postal service and you know I've been in a Whimo, and you know I've been in a Whimo, and you know I've been in a Whimo, you've been in a Whimo. Um Uber just you've been in a Whimo. Um Uber just you've been in a Whimo. Um Uber just announced that it is creating its own

announced that it is creating its own announced that it is creating its own automated fleet. So there's there's a automated fleet. So there's there's a automated fleet. So there's there's a very clear scope of target that they're very clear scope of target that they're very clear scope of target that they're going after those 9 million jobs and going after those 9 million jobs and going after those 9 million jobs and people and not just in America either by people and not just in America either by people and not just in America either by the looks of it. I've got this article the looks of it. I've got this article the looks of it. I've got this article here from the FT from this weekend the here from the FT from this weekend the here from the FT from this weekend the Financial Times where they're talking Financial Times where they're talking Financial Times where they're talking about the big tech services in India about the big tech services in India about the big tech services in India right these companies who have been right these companies who have been right these companies who have been spending massive amounts of money on spending massive amounts of money on spending massive amounts of money on talent you know hundreds of thousands of talent you know hundreds of thousands of talent you know hundreds of thousands of people working in these spaces and now people working in these spaces and now people working in these spaces and now just they are saying that this week this just they are saying that this week this just they are saying that this week this year there'll be five to six% layoffs year there'll be five to six% layoffs year there'll be five to six% layoffs versus 2023 levels in some of the versus 2023 levels in some of the versus 2023 levels in some of the biggest Indian consulting companies biggest Indian consulting companies biggest Indian consulting companies >> five% >> five% >> five% >> that's right and so it's happening >> that's right and so it's happening >> that's right and so it's happening around the world I think this is why I around the world I think this is why I around the world I think this is why I want to get you into you talk about in want to get you into you talk about in want to get you into you talk about in the in the book around this idea of the in the book around this idea of the in the book around this idea of shock absorbers that we might need to shock absorbers that we might need to shock absorbers that we might need to have some different kind of uh have some different kind of uh have some different kind of uh mechanisms financially uh you know in mechanisms financially uh you know in mechanisms financially uh you know in different parts of our economy and different parts of our economy and different parts of our economy and mental health to um to kind of I don't mental health to um to kind of I don't mental health to um to kind of I don't know sustain some of this just unpack know sustain some of this just unpack know sustain some of this just unpack for what do you mean by the shock for what do you mean by the shock for what do you mean by the shock absorber. absorber. absorber. >> So what I'd like to I want to play a >> So what I'd like to I want to play a >> So what I'd like to I want to play a little game with you before we get into little game with you before we get into little game with you before we get into that exact question. Can we play best that exact question. Can we play best that exact question. Can we play best case and worst case scenarios?

case and worst case scenarios? case and worst case scenarios? >> Yeah, if you would >> Yeah, if you would >> Yeah, if you would >> because I'd love I'd love your opinion >> because I'd love I'd love your opinion >> because I'd love I'd love your opinion on that. If you listen to the tech CEOs, on that. If you listen to the tech CEOs, on that. If you listen to the tech CEOs, and by the way, we're in the age of AI. and by the way, we're in the age of AI. and by the way, we're in the age of AI. We're on the cusp. Some would say we've We're on the cusp. Some would say we've We're on the cusp. Some would say we've hit artificial general intelligence hit artificial general intelligence hit artificial general intelligence where it gets a whole lot faster. And where it gets a whole lot faster. And where it gets a whole lot faster. And then the real point of singularity is then the real point of singularity is then the real point of singularity is super intelligence where basically AI super intelligence where basically AI super intelligence where basically AI gets so smart we no longer understand gets so smart we no longer understand gets so smart we no longer understand it. Right now, we don't fully understand it. Right now, we don't fully understand it. Right now, we don't fully understand it, but then it'll almost be like, and I it, but then it'll almost be like, and I it, but then it'll almost be like, and I know this sounds like sci-fi, but it's know this sounds like sci-fi, but it's know this sounds like sci-fi, but it's almost like being invaded by an alien almost like being invaded by an alien almost like being invaded by an alien species that you can't even talk to and species that you can't even talk to and species that you can't even talk to and it's taken over control. So, I mean, it's taken over control. So, I mean, it's taken over control. So, I mean, that's where this is going. So, we're in that's where this is going. So, we're in that's where this is going. So, we're in we're in the very early days of the AI we're in the very early days of the AI we're in the very early days of the AI era and things are going to change. So, era and things are going to change. So, era and things are going to change. So, you know, if you listen to Elon Musk, if you know, if you listen to Elon Musk, if you know, if you listen to Elon Musk, if you listen to um Andre, Mark Andre, if you listen to um Andre, Mark Andre, if you listen to um Andre, Mark Andre, if you listen to some other leaders in you listen to some other leaders in you listen to some other leaders in Silicon Valley, what are they saying? Silicon Valley, what are they saying? Silicon Valley, what are they saying? They're saying, "Oh, we're going to cure They're saying, "Oh, we're going to cure They're saying, "Oh, we're going to cure cancer. Everybody's going to not have to cancer. Everybody's going to not have to cancer. Everybody's going to not have to work. You're not going to have to do work. You're not going to have to do work. You're not going to have to do menial labor anymore. Um, we're going to menial labor anymore. Um, we're going to menial labor anymore. Um, we're going to have perhaps AI government and people have perhaps AI government and people have perhaps AI government and people are going to make better decisions. And are going to make better decisions. And are going to make better decisions. And uh education is going to become uh education is going to become uh education is going to become personalized so all of your kids can personalized so all of your kids can personalized so all of your kids can become super smart because AI knows become super smart because AI knows become super smart because AI knows exactly what to do. You're not a teacher exactly what to do. You're not a teacher exactly what to do. You're not a teacher with 40 students or a prof with a 100 with 40 students or a prof with a 100 with 40 students or a prof with a 100 students.

students. students. >> You can just customize it. So there's >> You can just customize it. So there's >> You can just customize it. So there's this kind of utopian world. We'll we'll this kind of utopian world. We'll we'll this kind of utopian world. We'll we'll solve the energy crisis and we won't solve the energy crisis and we won't solve the energy crisis and we won't have to worry about data centers because have to worry about data centers because have to worry about data centers because they're going to be a whole lot better. they're going to be a whole lot better. they're going to be a whole lot better. And so you kind of get this utopian And so you kind of get this utopian And so you kind of get this utopian vision from Silicon Valley that vision from Silicon Valley that vision from Silicon Valley that everything's going to be great and even everything's going to be great and even everything's going to be great and even if the jobs are going to go away, we're if the jobs are going to go away, we're if the jobs are going to go away, we're going to have universal basic income or going to have universal basic income or going to have universal basic income or there's going to be a sovereign wealth there's going to be a sovereign wealth there's going to be a sovereign wealth fund. And my question about that is, fund. And my question about that is, fund. And my question about that is, well, like who's paying? Yeah. well, like who's paying? Yeah. well, like who's paying? Yeah. >> Cuz the government's broke. And if you >> Cuz the government's broke. And if you >> Cuz the government's broke. And if you think companies and billionaires are think companies and billionaires are think companies and billionaires are going to give up their profits easily, going to give up their profits easily, going to give up their profits easily, I'm not sure that's true. And and I'm not sure that's true. And and I'm not sure that's true. And and secondly, you know, when in human secondly, you know, when in human secondly, you know, when in human history have we eliminated sin, fear, history have we eliminated sin, fear, history have we eliminated sin, fear, and greed? and greed? and greed? >> Not recently. >> Not recently. >> Not recently. >> Not recently. Not recently. We're not >> Not recently. Not recently. We're not >> Not recently. Not recently. We're not doing particularly well on it in the doing particularly well on it in the doing particularly well on it in the 2020s. So, yes, maybe it can do some 2020s. So, yes, maybe it can do some 2020s. So, yes, maybe it can do some amazing things, and I think some of that amazing things, and I think some of that amazing things, and I think some of that probably is going to come true, but it probably is going to come true, but it probably is going to come true, but it really doesn't account for human sin. It really doesn't account for human sin. It really doesn't account for human sin. It doesn't uh it it assumes pure motives on doesn't uh it it assumes pure motives on doesn't uh it it assumes pure motives on everyone's part and then somehow everyone's part and then somehow everyone's part and then somehow magically the AI frontier labs and the magically the AI frontier labs and the magically the AI frontier labs and the government all work this out beautifully government all work this out beautifully government all work this out beautifully and we know cooperation at the political and we know cooperation at the political and we know cooperation at the political level is at an all-time high. So like level is at an all-time high. So like level is at an all-time high. So like >> so so K but if if those all of those >> so so K but if if those all of those >> so so K but if if those all of those things are possible like if I'm a church things are possible like if I'm a church things are possible like if I'm a church pastor today and I'm thinking what am I pastor today and I'm thinking what am I pastor today and I'm thinking what am I preparing my congregation for? If I was preparing my congregation for? If I was preparing my congregation for? If I was to come and ask you that am I preparing to come and ask you that am I preparing to come and ask you that am I preparing them for the utopia or the dystopia?

them for the utopia or the dystopia? them for the utopia or the dystopia? Like where do you fall on that line Like where do you fall on that line Like where do you fall on that line right now? right now? right now? >> Well, writing researching this, I almost >> Well, writing researching this, I almost >> Well, writing researching this, I almost got depressed and at times I felt like got depressed and at times I felt like got depressed and at times I felt like the prophet Jeremiah the prophet Jeremiah the prophet Jeremiah >> when the message comes out they're going >> when the message comes out they're going >> when the message comes out they're going to put me at the bottom of a well and to put me at the bottom of a well and to put me at the bottom of a well and hopefully somebody lifts me up. That hopefully somebody lifts me up. That hopefully somebody lifts me up. That would be great. I I am not as optimistic would be great. I I am not as optimistic would be great. I I am not as optimistic as some of the tech people because I as some of the tech people because I as some of the tech people because I understand the human heart, I think, and understand the human heart, I think, and understand the human heart, I think, and I understand, you know, I have a degree I understand, you know, I have a degree I understand, you know, I have a degree in history. um it's never gone in history. um it's never gone in history. um it's never gone particularly well and um for all of particularly well and um for all of particularly well and um for all of those things to be true or even some of those things to be true or even some of those things to be true or even some of those things to be true it has to be those things to be true it has to be those things to be true it has to be great. So you know when it comes to great. So you know when it comes to great. So you know when it comes to unemployment one of the possible unemployment one of the possible unemployment one of the possible scenarios and this would fit into worst scenarios and this would fit into worst scenarios and this would fit into worst case unemployment right now in America case unemployment right now in America case unemployment right now in America is at 4.2%. It's a little higher I is at 4.2%. It's a little higher I is at 4.2%. It's a little higher I assume in the UK. It's higher in Canada assume in the UK. It's higher in Canada assume in the UK. It's higher in Canada >> about. Yeah. >> about. Yeah. >> about. Yeah. >> Um we just talked about India. But you >> Um we just talked about India. But you >> Um we just talked about India. But you know if the white collar jobs start know if the white collar jobs start know if the white collar jobs start disappearing because that's the obvious disappearing because that's the obvious disappearing because that's the obvious target for AI. It's knowledge work. What target for AI. It's knowledge work. What target for AI. It's knowledge work. What happens when Okay. And maybe there's happens when Okay. And maybe there's happens when Okay. And maybe there's some magic UBI. But if you're making some magic UBI. But if you're making some magic UBI. But if you're making $200,000 a year in a financial services $200,000 a year in a financial services $200,000 a year in a financial services firm, I don't think the government is firm, I don't think the government is firm, I don't think the government is cutting you a $200,000 a year paycheck.

cutting you a $200,000 a year paycheck. cutting you a $200,000 a year paycheck. Like Like Like >> No, sadly not. And then you're like, >> No, sadly not. And then you're like, >> No, sadly not. And then you're like, well, I'm going to go um drive Uber. well, I'm going to go um drive Uber. well, I'm going to go um drive Uber. Maybe not. Um maybe maybe that's all Maybe not. Um maybe maybe that's all Maybe not. Um maybe maybe that's all automated, too. So you you then get into automated, too. So you you then get into automated, too. So you you then get into from a pastoral standpoint, identity from a pastoral standpoint, identity from a pastoral standpoint, identity loss. Like job loss is identity loss. I loss. Like job loss is identity loss. I loss. Like job loss is identity loss. I love doing what I do. I'm interviewing love doing what I do. I'm interviewing love doing what I do. I'm interviewing Seth Goden um again uh for my podcast, Seth Goden um again uh for my podcast, Seth Goden um again uh for my podcast, and when he was on Diary of a CEO, they and when he was on Diary of a CEO, they and when he was on Diary of a CEO, they asked him, "Why do you still do what you asked him, "Why do you still do what you asked him, "Why do you still do what you do?" and he said, "Well, writing books do?" and he said, "Well, writing books do?" and he said, "Well, writing books is a terrible business plan, but he says is a terrible business plan, but he says is a terrible business plan, but he says it's a great way to make a difference." it's a great way to make a difference." it's a great way to make a difference." And And And >> he said, "You know, I don't think you >> he said, "You know, I don't think you >> he said, "You know, I don't think you should turn your hobby into a business, should turn your hobby into a business, should turn your hobby into a business, but he's turned his business into a but he's turned his business into a but he's turned his business into a hobby." And he makes some money along hobby." And he makes some money along hobby." And he makes some money along the way. But like, I get so much joy out the way. But like, I get so much joy out the way. But like, I get so much joy out of the work I'm doing. And if if that of the work I'm doing. And if if that of the work I'm doing. And if if that goes away, you know, we know our goes away, you know, we know our goes away, you know, we know our identity is in Jesus. We know that it is identity is in Jesus. We know that it is identity is in Jesus. We know that it is not what we do, it's who we are that not what we do, it's who we are that not what we do, it's who we are that makes us secure. But like this calls for makes us secure. But like this calls for makes us secure. But like this calls for some pretty thoughtful theology for us some pretty thoughtful theology for us some pretty thoughtful theology for us to figure out so that we can help people to figure out so that we can help people to figure out so that we can help people through job loss. Like what happens if through job loss. Like what happens if through job loss. Like what happens if let's say even 8% unemployment? We let's say even 8% unemployment? We let's say even 8% unemployment? We haven't really led through that in this haven't really led through that in this haven't really led through that in this generation.

generation. generation. >> That's going to be devastating. If it's >> That's going to be devastating. If it's >> That's going to be devastating. If it's the highest income jobs, the highest income jobs, the highest income jobs, >> then we got to pastor people through >> then we got to pastor people through >> then we got to pastor people through that. And then, you know, we'll get into that. And then, you know, we'll get into that. And then, you know, we'll get into this later, but then what happens to this later, but then what happens to this later, but then what happens to church donations? So, church donations? So, church donations? So, What about what about worst case What about what about worst case What about what about worst case scenarios? scenarios? scenarios? >> Well, I was going to say well I well >> Well, I was going to say well I well >> Well, I was going to say well I well worst case scenarios I think you you've worst case scenarios I think you you've worst case scenarios I think you you've highlighted some of these kind of issues highlighted some of these kind of issues highlighted some of these kind of issues along the way that you know we might be along the way that you know we might be along the way that you know we might be heading towards uh not just total job heading towards uh not just total job heading towards uh not just total job loss. I think that that's a very hard loss. I think that that's a very hard loss. I think that that's a very hard thing to thing to thing to >> it's not going to be 90% unemployment >> it's not going to be 90% unemployment >> it's not going to be 90% unemployment but what if it's 10 but what if it's 10 but what if it's 10 >> 10 or or more? I think you're right. >> 10 or or more? I think you're right. >> 10 or or more? I think you're right. It's something that we've not really It's something that we've not really It's something that we've not really faced into when it comes to worst case faced into when it comes to worst case faced into when it comes to worst case scenarios. I think one of the big things scenarios. I think one of the big things scenarios. I think one of the big things I worry about when it comes to this I worry about when it comes to this I worry about when it comes to this joblessness piece isn't actually uh 10% joblessness piece isn't actually uh 10% joblessness piece isn't actually uh 10% unemployment across the whole economy, unemployment across the whole economy, unemployment across the whole economy, but it's like 25% unemployment in young but it's like 25% unemployment in young but it's like 25% unemployment in young people. I think this is the thing that people. I think this is the thing that people. I think this is the thing that I'm most concerned about. Like as you I'm most concerned about. Like as you I'm most concerned about. Like as you were researching this for the book, like were researching this for the book, like were researching this for the book, like where where do you see the kind of that where where do you see the kind of that where where do you see the kind of that uneven distribution of the impact that uneven distribution of the impact that uneven distribution of the impact that this is going to have? Like, you know, this is going to have? Like, you know, this is going to have? Like, you know, for people who are maybe later in their for people who are maybe later in their for people who are maybe later in their career, maybe kind of, you know, career, maybe kind of, you know, career, maybe kind of, you know, thinking about retirement, they're thinking about retirement, they're thinking about retirement, they're thinking they can kind of, you know, thinking they can kind of, you know, thinking they can kind of, you know, kind of have a nice swans on off into, kind of have a nice swans on off into, kind of have a nice swans on off into, you know, kind of the the lakeside and you know, kind of the the lakeside and you know, kind of the the lakeside and go hang out and let everybody else deal go hang out and let everybody else deal go hang out and let everybody else deal with this. But it feels like for those with this. But it feels like for those with this. But it feels like for those who are just entering the job market, it who are just entering the job market, it who are just entering the job market, it feels like this could be a real feels like this could be a real feels like this could be a real challenge and maybe not something that challenge and maybe not something that challenge and maybe not something that our youth pastors and our our, you know, our youth pastors and our our, you know, our youth pastors and our our, you know, kind of organizations that deal with our kind of organizations that deal with our kind of organizations that deal with our young people are really ready and young people are really ready and young people are really ready and prepared for.

prepared for. prepared for. >> It's a very real issue. I've I've heard >> It's a very real issue. I've I've heard >> It's a very real issue. I've I've heard numerous conversations uh around AI numerous conversations uh around AI numerous conversations uh around AI where the question becomes if you have where the question becomes if you have where the question becomes if you have teenagers what do you prepare them for? teenagers what do you prepare them for? teenagers what do you prepare them for? So I have two sons uh one's a software So I have two sons uh one's a software So I have two sons uh one's a software engineer and the other trained in engineer and the other trained in engineer and the other trained in accounting and is now working in our accounting and is now working in our accounting and is now working in our company and basically COO of the company and basically COO of the company and basically COO of the company. So, you know, but I remember company. So, you know, but I remember company. So, you know, but I remember when I was coaching, my wife and I were when I was coaching, my wife and I were when I was coaching, my wife and I were coaching our boys, it was sort of we coaching our boys, it was sort of we coaching our boys, it was sort of we probably unfairly channeled them toward probably unfairly channeled them toward probably unfairly channeled them toward accounting, software engineering, um, accounting, software engineering, um, accounting, software engineering, um, law. law. law. >> Go and code, you'll be fine. >> Go and code, you'll be fine. >> Go and code, you'll be fine. >> Exactly. Well, that was the ticket, >> Exactly. Well, that was the ticket, >> Exactly. Well, that was the ticket, right? And he's now a senior coder and right? And he's now a senior coder and right? And he's now a senior coder and his job isn't in danger. But, um, it's a his job isn't in danger. But, um, it's a his job isn't in danger. But, um, it's a really good question. Would I be making really good question. Would I be making really good question. Would I be making the same recommendations? Um, what do the same recommendations? Um, what do the same recommendations? Um, what do you do? And then there was this blip you do? And then there was this blip you do? And then there was this blip that, well, we all have to go into the that, well, we all have to go into the that, well, we all have to go into the trades, so everybody's got to be a trades, so everybody's got to be a trades, so everybody's got to be a plumber or an HVAC or construction, etc. plumber or an HVAC or construction, etc. plumber or an HVAC or construction, etc. Well, you've seen this over the last Well, you've seen this over the last Well, you've seen this over the last year since I started writing the book, year since I started writing the book, year since I started writing the book, humanoid robotics. Everybody made fun humanoid robotics. Everybody made fun humanoid robotics. Everybody made fun of, you know, the robots that would not of, you know, the robots that would not of, you know, the robots that would not know how to fry an egg or drop the know how to fry an egg or drop the know how to fry an egg or drop the frying pan or malfunction or couldn't frying pan or malfunction or couldn't frying pan or malfunction or couldn't dance.

dance. dance. >> Yeah, it's getting a lot better in real >> Yeah, it's getting a lot better in real >> Yeah, it's getting a lot better in real time. And I think uh correct me if I'm time. And I think uh correct me if I'm time. And I think uh correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was Musk who said wrong, but I think it was Musk who said wrong, but I think it was Musk who said he wants to deploy a billion humanoid he wants to deploy a billion humanoid he wants to deploy a billion humanoid robots by what 2030 or something. This robots by what 2030 or something. This robots by what 2030 or something. This episode is brought to you by Studio C. episode is brought to you by Studio C. episode is brought to you by Studio C. Technology keeps changing how we do Technology keeps changing how we do Technology keeps changing how we do ministry, but it doesn't change why we ministry, but it doesn't change why we ministry, but it doesn't change why we do it. The Great Commission is still do it. The Great Commission is still do it. The Great Commission is still about reaching people, making disciples, about reaching people, making disciples, about reaching people, making disciples, and helping people take their next step and helping people take their next step and helping people take their next step with Jesus, which is why how we with Jesus, which is why how we with Jesus, which is why how we communicate still matters. So whether communicate still matters. So whether communicate still matters. So whether you're leading, teaching, communicating, you're leading, teaching, communicating, you're leading, teaching, communicating, or serving people, everyone in your or serving people, everyone in your or serving people, everyone in your church communicates the mission. That's church communicates the mission. That's church communicates the mission. That's why our friends at Studio Created the why our friends at Studio Created the why our friends at Studio Created the free church communications greater. In free church communications greater. In free church communications greater. In about 3 minutes, you'll get your score about 3 minutes, you'll get your score about 3 minutes, you'll get your score and you'll see what's working and you'll and you'll see what's working and you'll and you'll see what's working and you'll uncover your biggest opportunity and get uncover your biggest opportunity and get uncover your biggest opportunity and get practical recommendations based on your practical recommendations based on your practical recommendations based on your role. Better yet, you can have your team role. Better yet, you can have your team role. Better yet, you can have your team take it and compare results. You might take it and compare results. You might take it and compare results. You might be surprised places where you're aligned be surprised places where you're aligned be surprised places where you're aligned and places where you're not. Studio C and places where you're not. Studio C and places where you're not. Studio C brings strategy and technology together brings strategy and technology together brings strategy and technology together to help churches turn that clarity into to help churches turn that clarity into to help churches turn that clarity into action. Knowing where people are, action. Knowing where people are, action. Knowing where people are, guiding their next step, and making guiding their next step, and making guiding their next step, and making ministry more personal at scale. So take ministry more personal at scale. So take ministry more personal at scale. So take the free church communications greater the free church communications greater the free church communications greater at studioc.org/carry.

at studioc.org/carry. at studioc.org/carry. That's studioc.org/carry. That's studioc.org/carry. That's studioc.org/carry. org/ky. org/ky. org/ky. This episode is brought to you by Church This episode is brought to you by Church This episode is brought to you by Church Growth Engine. So, why do churches with Growth Engine. So, why do churches with Growth Engine. So, why do churches with faithful members, solid preaching, and faithful members, solid preaching, and faithful members, solid preaching, and genuine love for God struggle to genuine love for God struggle to genuine love for God struggle to flourish in their communities? A lot of flourish in their communities? A lot of flourish in their communities? A lot of growth challenges are actually about growth challenges are actually about growth challenges are actually about removing predictable barriers that removing predictable barriers that removing predictable barriers that prevent churches from becoming prevent churches from becoming prevent churches from becoming everything God has called them to be. everything God has called them to be. everything God has called them to be. Church growth engines guide, Why do good Church growth engines guide, Why do good Church growth engines guide, Why do good churches get stuck? identifies 10 churches get stuck? identifies 10 churches get stuck? identifies 10 fixable problems, including leadership fixable problems, including leadership fixable problems, including leadership exhaustion cycles, visitor retention exhaustion cycles, visitor retention exhaustion cycles, visitor retention gaps, and the we're full illusion. Each gaps, and the we're full illusion. Each gaps, and the we're full illusion. Each challenge includes both symptoms to challenge includes both symptoms to challenge includes both symptoms to recognize and practical steps that have recognize and practical steps that have recognize and practical steps that have helped thousands of churches move from helped thousands of churches move from helped thousands of churches move from survival mode to thriving ministry. survival mode to thriving ministry. survival mode to thriving ministry. You'll see realistic timelines because You'll see realistic timelines because You'll see realistic timelines because lasting change can take a little time. lasting change can take a little time. lasting change can take a little time. So, ready to help your church thrive? So, ready to help your church thrive? So, ready to help your church thrive? Download the free guide today at Download the free guide today at Download the free guide today at churchgrowthengine.comactionplan.

That's That's churchgrowthengine.com/actionactionplan. Even by his standards, that's ambitious. Even by his standards, that's ambitious. But yeah, even if it's by 2040, that's But yeah, even if it's by 2040, that's But yeah, even if it's by 2040, that's not a long time away. I think we we lose not a long time away. I think we we lose not a long time away. I think we we lose perspective, don't we, of like how time perspective, don't we, of like how time perspective, don't we, of like how time works in ministry and [laughter] in works in ministry and [laughter] in works in ministry and [laughter] in life. It's like, you know, how many of life. It's like, you know, how many of life. It's like, you know, how many of us are sat here six years later thinking us are sat here six years later thinking us are sat here six years later thinking that we would never kind of do this, that we would never kind of do this, that we would never kind of do this, right? Podcast virtually. right? Podcast virtually. right? Podcast virtually. >> This wasn't a job 20 years ago. And >> This wasn't a job 20 years ago. And >> This wasn't a job 20 years ago. And that's the tech argument. The tech and that's the tech argument. The tech and that's the tech argument. The tech and I've I've debated CEOs, you'll hear it I've I've debated CEOs, you'll hear it I've I've debated CEOs, you'll hear it on this podcast in this AI series where on this podcast in this AI series where on this podcast in this AI series where they're like, "We always figure this they're like, "We always figure this they're like, "We always figure this out. We always figure this out, right?" out. We always figure this out, right?" out. We always figure this out, right?" Like when the car was invented, what Like when the car was invented, what Like when the car was invented, what happened to all the carriage makers and happened to all the carriage makers and happened to all the carriage makers and the blacksmiths who shed the horses? the blacksmiths who shed the horses? the blacksmiths who shed the horses? They all found new jobs. Yes. But it They all found new jobs. Yes. But it They all found new jobs. Yes. But it took like in the industrial revolution took like in the industrial revolution took like in the industrial revolution when we went from an agrarian economy to when we went from an agrarian economy to when we went from an agrarian economy to an industrial economy. That was a an industrial economy. That was a an industrial economy. That was a 100red-year journey. And it took us 100red-year journey. And it took us 100red-year journey. And it took us about 150 years. you could argue 200 about 150 years. you could argue 200 about 150 years. you could argue 200 years to figure out how to do it years to figure out how to do it years to figure out how to do it humanely because when you started the humanely because when you started the humanely because when you started the industrial revolution, the poulters and industrial revolution, the poulters and industrial revolution, the poulters and the new hoffs all move from the farm to the new hoffs all move from the farm to the new hoffs all move from the farm to the city, the city, the city, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> And uh we're all working 18-hour days, >> And uh we're all working 18-hour days, >> And uh we're all working 18-hour days, six, seven days a week, and our children six, seven days a week, and our children six, seven days a week, and our children are running machinery that kills them. are running machinery that kills them. are running machinery that kills them. >> Yeah, it's pretty rough in that >> Yeah, it's pretty rough in that >> Yeah, it's pretty rough in that transition. transition. transition. >> Low wages, horrible conditions, um high >> Low wages, horrible conditions, um high >> Low wages, horrible conditions, um high workplace death. And over a century or a workplace death. And over a century or a workplace death. And over a century or a century and a half, we thought, huh, century and a half, we thought, huh, century and a half, we thought, huh, maybe a 6- day work week is better. maybe a 6- day work week is better. maybe a 6- day work week is better. Maybe a 5day work week is better. Maybe Maybe a 5day work week is better. Maybe Maybe a 5day work week is better. Maybe 12-hour work days are not the most 12-hour work days are not the most 12-hour work days are not the most productive. Maybe we shouldn't have productive. Maybe we shouldn't have productive. Maybe we shouldn't have children operating dangerous machinery children operating dangerous machinery children operating dangerous machinery and dying. Like the child labor laws and and dying. Like the child labor laws and and dying. Like the child labor laws and the 40-hour work week literally took the 40-hour work week literally took the 40-hour work week literally took centuries to hammer out and we lost centuries to hammer out and we lost centuries to hammer out and we lost generations in the process. So the generations in the process. So the generations in the process. So the problem back to Hassabus' quote is if problem back to Hassabus' quote is if problem back to Hassabus' quote is if it's 10 times faster and 10 times bigger it's 10 times faster and 10 times bigger it's 10 times faster and 10 times bigger and the reality is this is this is and the reality is this is this is and the reality is this is this is probably the most haunting part. Nobody probably the most haunting part. Nobody probably the most haunting part. Nobody knows. knows. knows. >> No. Exactly. >> No. Exactly. >> No. Exactly. >> Governments don't know. The people the >> Governments don't know. The people the >> Governments don't know. The people the frontier labs developing the AI, they're frontier labs developing the AI, they're frontier labs developing the AI, they're the first to admit, yeah, we really the first to admit, yeah, we really the first to admit, yeah, we really don't know where this is going, but we don't know where this is going, but we don't know where this is going, but we can't let our foot off the gas pedal can't let our foot off the gas pedal can't let our foot off the gas pedal because if we do, the other labs will because if we do, the other labs will because if we do, the other labs will win or China will win or India will win.

win or China will win or India will win. win or China will win or India will win. So, we're kind of in this prisoners So, we're kind of in this prisoners So, we're kind of in this prisoners dilemma where nobody nobody wants to dilemma where nobody nobody wants to dilemma where nobody nobody wants to slow down because they'll lose their slow down because they'll lose their slow down because they'll lose their competitive advantage, but nobody knows competitive advantage, but nobody knows competitive advantage, but nobody knows the implications of what they're going the implications of what they're going the implications of what they're going to do. And the theologians and the to do. And the theologians and the to do. And the theologians and the ethicists and the philosophers are way ethicists and the philosophers are way ethicists and the philosophers are way behind. That's right. I mean, I often behind. That's right. I mean, I often behind. That's right. I mean, I often say to people like predicting the future say to people like predicting the future say to people like predicting the future is like, you know, looking into a a is like, you know, looking into a a is like, you know, looking into a a crystal ball. Predicting the future of crystal ball. Predicting the future of crystal ball. Predicting the future of AI is like looking into a bag full of AI is like looking into a bag full of AI is like looking into a bag full of crystal balls. Like, it's Yeah. Good crystal balls. Like, it's Yeah. Good crystal balls. Like, it's Yeah. Good luck. Which future you going to pick? luck. Which future you going to pick? luck. Which future you going to pick? >> I mean, what do you think? >> I mean, what do you think? >> I mean, what do you think? >> We have to do something. Well, I mean I >> We have to do something. Well, I mean I >> We have to do something. Well, I mean I I think we are stuck on a continuum, I think we are stuck on a continuum, I think we are stuck on a continuum, right, where like it's not all bad all right, where like it's not all bad all right, where like it's not all bad all the time. I think that that's the the time. I think that that's the the time. I think that that's the challenge that I think we're all challenge that I think we're all challenge that I think we're all wrestling with is that when you talk wrestling with is that when you talk wrestling with is that when you talk about utopia or dystopia, it's not about utopia or dystopia, it's not about utopia or dystopia, it's not actually as binary as that, but there actually as binary as that, but there actually as binary as that, but there are still a lot of problems along the are still a lot of problems along the are still a lot of problems along the way. You know, you talk about this in way. You know, you talk about this in way. You know, you talk about this in the book about these ideas of um you the book about these ideas of um you the book about these ideas of um you know, kind of particularly ministering know, kind of particularly ministering know, kind of particularly ministering into financial, you know, kind of ruin into financial, you know, kind of ruin into financial, you know, kind of ruin around white collar jobs. This is one of around white collar jobs. This is one of around white collar jobs. This is one of the areas which I think I'm really the areas which I think I'm really the areas which I think I'm really concerned about that we don't have concerned about that we don't have concerned about that we don't have enough people. Yeah. I I was at a recent enough people. Yeah. I I was at a recent enough people. Yeah. I I was at a recent um event speaking to a bunch of people um event speaking to a bunch of people um event speaking to a bunch of people in ministry and asked them to raise a in ministry and asked them to raise a in ministry and asked them to raise a hand of how many of them had a workplace hand of how many of them had a workplace hand of how many of them had a workplace ministry in their church. They're just ministry in their church. They're just ministry in their church. They're just in their average Sunday congregation. It in their average Sunday congregation. It in their average Sunday congregation. It was about 4% of the room of 150 people was about 4% of the room of 150 people was about 4% of the room of 150 people raised a hand and said, "Yeah, we have a raised a hand and said, "Yeah, we have a raised a hand and said, "Yeah, we have a workplace ministry." And I think that workplace ministry." And I think that workplace ministry." And I think that that's going to become a massive that's going to become a massive that's going to become a massive requirement, right? Like you we're going requirement, right? Like you we're going requirement, right? Like you we're going to have to learn to minister into this to have to learn to minister into this to have to learn to minister into this stuff. I mean, stuff. I mean, stuff. I mean, >> I think that's true. You asked about Gen >> I think that's true. You asked about Gen >> I think that's true. You asked about Gen Z and I kind of skipped the question, Z and I kind of skipped the question, Z and I kind of skipped the question, but I want to get back to it. So, I but I want to get back to it. So, I but I want to get back to it. So, I think we saw how Gen Z is feeling during think we saw how Gen Z is feeling during think we saw how Gen Z is feeling during the commencement speech circuit in 2026

the commencement speech circuit in 2026 the commencement speech circuit in 2026 when anytime anybody in tech or anybody when anytime anybody in tech or anybody when anytime anybody in tech or anybody mentioned AI, they were booed off the mentioned AI, they were booed off the mentioned AI, they were booed off the stage. And um I think if you're starting stage. And um I think if you're starting stage. And um I think if you're starting to look at the statistics, one area to look at the statistics, one area to look at the statistics, one area where you really see vulnerability is in where you really see vulnerability is in where you really see vulnerability is in those first year jobs. Because I mean, I those first year jobs. Because I mean, I those first year jobs. Because I mean, I worked for a year in a law firm. What do worked for a year in a law firm. What do worked for a year in a law firm. What do you do? All the grunt work. I did case you do? All the grunt work. I did case you do? All the grunt work. I did case research for lawyers. I got sent to I research for lawyers. I got sent to I research for lawyers. I got sent to I was in court almost every day, but I was was in court almost every day, but I was was in court almost every day, but I was interviewing the stuff that was sort of interviewing the stuff that was sort of interviewing the stuff that was sort of the grunt work. I was or sorry, I was the grunt work. I was or sorry, I was the grunt work. I was or sorry, I was arguing the stuff that was the grunt arguing the stuff that was the grunt arguing the stuff that was the grunt work. And that's now all taken over by work. And that's now all taken over by work. And that's now all taken over by AI. I mean, you know, you can you can AI. I mean, you know, you can you can AI. I mean, you know, you can you can search the database so much faster. I search the database so much faster. I search the database so much faster. I was looking in the '9s at [laughter] at was looking in the '9s at [laughter] at was looking in the '9s at [laughter] at actual books. Like, I just go into the actual books. Like, I just go into the actual books. Like, I just go into the law library and pull case law and read law library and pull case law and read law library and pull case law and read it. And you know now AI is doing all of it. And you know now AI is doing all of it. And you know now AI is doing all of that. So it's getting harder for white that. So it's getting harder for white that. So it's getting harder for white collar jobs and finance is at risk and collar jobs and finance is at risk and collar jobs and finance is at risk and law is at risk and accounting is at risk law is at risk and accounting is at risk law is at risk and accounting is at risk and engineering is to some extent at and engineering is to some extent at and engineering is to some extent at risk. Although you could say there's risk. Although you could say there's risk. Although you could say there's probably been a net positive in software probably been a net positive in software probably been a net positive in software engineer hiring. So it's really like and engineer hiring. So it's really like and engineer hiring. So it's really like and that's what now you know with two two that's what now you know with two two that's what now you know with two two years of 4% unemployment people come years of 4% unemployment people come years of 4% unemployment people come back and say see nothing there.

back and say see nothing there. back and say see nothing there. >> It'll be fine right? I [clears throat] >> It'll be fine right? I [clears throat] >> It'll be fine right? I [clears throat] would love to believe that's true, would love to believe that's true, would love to believe that's true, >> but it's sort of like, you know, if you >> but it's sort of like, you know, if you >> but it's sort of like, you know, if you look at Dave Ramsey or others on look at Dave Ramsey or others on look at Dave Ramsey or others on personal finance, what do you do? Cuz personal finance, what do you do? Cuz personal finance, what do you do? Cuz right now everything in my house is right now everything in my house is right now everything in my house is running quite well. Although this running quite well. Although this running quite well. Although this morning I realized, I think we need a morning I realized, I think we need a morning I realized, I think we need a new heat recovery ventilator cuz I woke new heat recovery ventilator cuz I woke new heat recovery ventilator cuz I woke up and it was pretty humid outside and I up and it was pretty humid outside and I up and it was pretty humid outside and I had the AC on and all the windows were had the AC on and all the windows were had the AC on and all the windows were drippy. So, I texted my wife, it's going drippy. So, I texted my wife, it's going drippy. So, I texted my wife, it's going to be 2500 bucks. Well, guess what? We to be 2500 bucks. Well, guess what? We to be 2500 bucks. Well, guess what? We saved for it. Now, I didn't know it was saved for it. Now, I didn't know it was saved for it. Now, I didn't know it was going to be an HRV, but I built up an going to be an HRV, but I built up an going to be an HRV, but I built up an emergency fund. And what is that for? emergency fund. And what is that for? emergency fund. And what is that for? And a reserve fund. It's for emergencies And a reserve fund. It's for emergencies And a reserve fund. It's for emergencies and reserves. So, when this happens, and reserves. So, when this happens, and reserves. So, when this happens, you're ready. And that's my you're ready. And that's my you're ready. And that's my encouragement to church leaders is if encouragement to church leaders is if encouragement to church leaders is if you don't have a workplace ministry and you don't have a workplace ministry and you don't have a workplace ministry and you haven't really thought through a you haven't really thought through a you haven't really thought through a theology of identity and work and theology of identity and work and theology of identity and work and purpose, now's a good time to start and purpose, now's a good time to start and purpose, now's a good time to start and have some stuff cuz that's an issue have some stuff cuz that's an issue have some stuff cuz that's an issue whether you have a job or not. You're whether you have a job or not. You're whether you have a job or not. You're going to have better ministry as a going to have better ministry as a going to have better ministry as a result. And the same with like what result. And the same with like what result. And the same with like what happens then if that unemployment if it happens then if that unemployment if it happens then if that unemployment if it happens turns into lower donations happens turns into lower donations happens turns into lower donations because the people most at risk are because the people most at risk are because the people most at risk are probably your best donors. Not your probably your best donors. Not your probably your best donors. Not your independently wealthy multi-millionaires independently wealthy multi-millionaires independently wealthy multi-millionaires or whatever, but I mean your highincome or whatever, but I mean your highincome or whatever, but I mean your highincome earning 30 to 50 year olds who don't earning 30 to 50 year olds who don't earning 30 to 50 year olds who don't have a ton of savings, who probably have a ton of savings, who probably have a ton of savings, who probably still have a mortgage, who are paying still have a mortgage, who are paying still have a mortgage, who are paying car payments like most of America or car payments like most of America or car payments like most of America or whatever culture you're in, and who are whatever culture you're in, and who are whatever culture you're in, and who are relying on that 150,200, $250,000 a year relying on that 150,200, $250,000 a year relying on that 150,200, $250,000 a year or whatever your equivalent is to come or whatever your equivalent is to come or whatever your equivalent is to come in. And if they lose that

in. And if they lose that in. And if they lose that >> and they become unemployable, >> and they become unemployable, >> and they become unemployable, >> well then what? um when you say the the >> well then what? um when you say the the >> well then what? um when you say the the then what I mean um Mark Zuckerberg this then what I mean um Mark Zuckerberg this then what I mean um Mark Zuckerberg this week as we're recording has just week as we're recording has just week as we're recording has just released this kind of big 6,500 word released this kind of big 6,500 word released this kind of big 6,500 word manifesto on AI and the future his you manifesto on AI and the future his you manifesto on AI and the future his you know he's hopeful full that we will all know he's hopeful full that we will all know he's hopeful full that we will all have some personal super intelligence have some personal super intelligence have some personal super intelligence and it's going to give rise to an and it's going to give rise to an and it's going to give rise to an abundance of entrepreneurs so surely abundance of entrepreneurs so surely abundance of entrepreneurs so surely that's the solution right we just kind that's the solution right we just kind that's the solution right we just kind of get all of our pastors to teach of get all of our pastors to teach of get all of our pastors to teach everyone how to be entrepreneurs they're everyone how to be entrepreneurs they're everyone how to be entrepreneurs they're good at that right good at that right good at that right >> yeah he's a he's a little [laughter] bit >> yeah he's a he's a little [laughter] bit >> yeah he's a he's a little [laughter] bit of a a head in the clouds guy too Zuck of a a head in the clouds guy too Zuck of a a head in the clouds guy too Zuck when he talks about this stuff. I mean, when he talks about this stuff. I mean, when he talks about this stuff. I mean, yeah, well, who's going to buy your yeah, well, who's going to buy your yeah, well, who's going to buy your stuff if everyone's unemployed or is it stuff if everyone's unemployed or is it stuff if everyone's unemployed or is it just un, you know, like how does that just un, you know, like how does that just un, you know, like how does that work? And then on the congregational work? And then on the congregational work? And then on the congregational living, um, giving thing, what do you living, um, giving thing, what do you living, um, giving thing, what do you do? So, back to shock absorbers, what I do? So, back to shock absorbers, what I do? So, back to shock absorbers, what I would say to every church leader now, would say to every church leader now, would say to every church leader now, think like Joseph in the land of Egypt. think like Joseph in the land of Egypt. think like Joseph in the land of Egypt. If you had the dream and you saw it and If you had the dream and you saw it and If you had the dream and you saw it and you found out there were going to be you found out there were going to be you found out there were going to be seven good years or seven good months, seven good years or seven good months, seven good years or seven good months, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save, save. Put some stuff in the bank. If save. Put some stuff in the bank. If save. Put some stuff in the bank. If nothing happens, guess what? Good. You nothing happens, guess what? Good. You nothing happens, guess what? Good. You have money for ministry.

have money for ministry. have money for ministry. >> If something bad happens, you've got >> If something bad happens, you've got >> If something bad happens, you've got money for the poor. You've got money for money for the poor. You've got money for money for the poor. You've got money for relief. You've got money so you don't relief. You've got money so you don't relief. You've got money so you don't have to immediately go to layoffs. Like have to immediately go to layoffs. Like have to immediately go to layoffs. Like when COVID hit, one of the first thing when COVID hit, one of the first thing when COVID hit, one of the first thing and we all got shut down. I was on a and we all got shut down. I was on a and we all got shut down. I was on a plane to Australia and not quite but plane to Australia and not quite but plane to Australia and not quite but like going there bags packed and the like going there bags packed and the like going there bags packed and the world shut down and one of the first world shut down and one of the first world shut down and one of the first things I did was I called my CFO in and things I did was I called my CFO in and things I did was I called my CFO in and I said how much cash do we have I said how much cash do we have I said how much cash do we have >> and one of the first things I could do >> and one of the first things I could do >> and one of the first things I could do was go to my team and say all right was go to my team and say all right was go to my team and say all right we've already always bootstrap this we've already always bootstrap this we've already always bootstrap this company nobody's going to lose their job company nobody's going to lose their job company nobody's going to lose their job >> like everybody's safe wouldn't it be in >> like everybody's safe wouldn't it be in >> like everybody's safe wouldn't it be in a great place to be able to say that to a great place to be able to say that to a great place to be able to say that to your staff or team and then figure out your staff or team and then figure out your staff or team and then figure out how you can serve the how you can serve the how you can serve the How do you square that with ministry How do you square that with ministry How do you square that with ministry though? Cuz I think many people would though? Cuz I think many people would though? Cuz I think many people would say like just sitting on a bank of cash say like just sitting on a bank of cash say like just sitting on a bank of cash and not deploying it is somehow, you and not deploying it is somehow, you and not deploying it is somehow, you know, kind of being unfaithful or it know, kind of being unfaithful or it know, kind of being unfaithful or it might be you kind of sitting on a, you might be you kind of sitting on a, you might be you kind of sitting on a, you know, a kind of it's that parable of the know, a kind of it's that parable of the know, a kind of it's that parable of the talents, right? Always kind of gets talents, right? Always kind of gets talents, right? Always kind of gets thrown around, you know, we're sitting thrown around, you know, we're sitting thrown around, you know, we're sitting on our cash, but like what kind of on our cash, but like what kind of on our cash, but like what kind of wisdom would you be encouraging, you wisdom would you be encouraging, you wisdom would you be encouraging, you know, church leaders to be thinking know, church leaders to be thinking know, church leaders to be thinking about now? I mean, you say in the book about now? I mean, you say in the book about now? I mean, you say in the book about we could be entering into one of about we could be entering into one of about we could be entering into one of the greatest growth eras for the church the greatest growth eras for the church the greatest growth eras for the church that it's ever had. And we at the same that it's ever had. And we at the same that it's ever had. And we at the same time have to kind of square that with time have to kind of square that with time have to kind of square that with everything else we've just been everything else we've just been everything else we've just been discussing like yeah how do how do we discussing like yeah how do how do we discussing like yeah how do how do we navigate that?

navigate that? navigate that? >> So I've operated with margin and I've >> So I've operated with margin and I've >> So I've operated with margin and I've operated without margin. I much prefer operated without margin. I much prefer operated without margin. I much prefer with margin. And I think you're right in with margin. And I think you're right in with margin. And I think you're right in peace time so to speak the late Tony peace time so to speak the late Tony peace time so to speak the late Tony Morgan would say 6 to 8 weeks you should Morgan would say 6 to 8 weeks you should Morgan would say 6 to 8 weeks you should have in reserve because if you have more have in reserve because if you have more have in reserve because if you have more than that then why aren't you deploying than that then why aren't you deploying than that then why aren't you deploying it for ministry? But if you see a it for ministry? But if you see a it for ministry? But if you see a potential crisis coming in the same way potential crisis coming in the same way potential crisis coming in the same way that you might save up cash to build a that you might save up cash to build a that you might save up cash to build a new building or open a location or that new building or open a location or that new building or open a location or that kind of thing, uh when I was lead kind of thing, uh when I was lead kind of thing, uh when I was lead pastor, having operated without margin pastor, having operated without margin pastor, having operated without margin for too long, we really started taking for too long, we really started taking for too long, we really started taking that seriously and I created what we that seriously and I created what we that seriously and I created what we called uh an obstacles and opportunity called uh an obstacles and opportunity called uh an obstacles and opportunity fund. Basically, it's an emergency fund, fund. Basically, it's an emergency fund, fund. Basically, it's an emergency fund, but it's not just for things that break. but it's not just for things that break. but it's not just for things that break. >> It's an opportunity for, hey, we found >> It's an opportunity for, hey, we found >> It's an opportunity for, hey, we found some land. Oh, we could start another some land. Oh, we could start another some land. Oh, we could start another location. Oh, we have a new ministry location. Oh, we have a new ministry location. Oh, we have a new ministry opportunity. Oh my goodness, growth is opportunity. Oh my goodness, growth is opportunity. Oh my goodness, growth is happening. And anybody who's led a happening. And anybody who's led a happening. And anybody who's led a church knows if you're in a high growth church knows if you're in a high growth church knows if you're in a high growth season, the giving lags. Like, you're up season, the giving lags. Like, you're up season, the giving lags. Like, you're up 30%, but your giving isn't up 30%. Well, 30%, but your giving isn't up 30%. Well, 30%, but your giving isn't up 30%. Well, guess what? If you've got a reserve to guess what? If you've got a reserve to guess what? If you've got a reserve to draw from, then you can navigate that draw from, then you can navigate that draw from, then you can navigate that season well and staff for it and season well and staff for it and season well and staff for it and disciple people and eventually the disciple people and eventually the disciple people and eventually the giving will catch up. So, I think it's I giving will catch up. So, I think it's I giving will catch up. So, I think it's I think it's that principle. And if in two think it's that principle. And if in two think it's that principle. And if in two or three years, you know, I I I I hope or three years, you know, I I I I hope or three years, you know, I I I I hope this is a Y2K kind of conversation where this is a Y2K kind of conversation where this is a Y2K kind of conversation where everybody is nervous and everyone's so everybody is nervous and everyone's so everybody is nervous and everyone's so worried and we think the world is going worried and we think the world is going worried and we think the world is going to end and planes are going to fall out to end and planes are going to fall out to end and planes are going to fall out of the sky and then January 1st, 2000 of the sky and then January 1st, 2000 of the sky and then January 1st, 2000 happens and nothing happens. But the happens and nothing happens. But the happens and nothing happens. But the reason nothing happened was because

reason nothing happened was because reason nothing happened was because governments and private industries spent governments and private industries spent governments and private industries spent hundreds of millions of dollars fixing hundreds of millions of dollars fixing hundreds of millions of dollars fixing code in computers so that hospitals code in computers so that hospitals code in computers so that hospitals didn't shut down and the power grid didn't shut down and the power grid didn't shut down and the power grid didn't fail. Right? didn't fail. Right? didn't fail. Right? >> And so I'm my call is like on finance we >> And so I'm my call is like on finance we >> And so I'm my call is like on finance we might have to rethink our giving model might have to rethink our giving model might have to rethink our giving model which a lot of church leaders would tell which a lot of church leaders would tell which a lot of church leaders would tell you is fragile. There are churches with you is fragile. There are churches with you is fragile. There are churches with margin. There's a lot of churches with margin. There's a lot of churches with margin. There's a lot of churches with no margin right now. Well, this is a no margin right now. Well, this is a no margin right now. Well, this is a really good time to get that underway. really good time to get that underway. really good time to get that underway. When was the best time to start? 10 When was the best time to start? 10 When was the best time to start? 10 years ago. When's the second best time years ago. When's the second best time years ago. When's the second best time to start? Now. And that way, you can be to start? Now. And that way, you can be to start? Now. And that way, you can be of service to your community. You can be of service to your community. You can be of service to your community. You can be generous to your community. You can generous to your community. You can generous to your community. You can pastor people through a crisis. And if pastor people through a crisis. And if pastor people through a crisis. And if the crisis doesn't come, you're just a the crisis doesn't come, you're just a the crisis doesn't come, you're just a stronger church. Now, go advance your stronger church. Now, go advance your stronger church. Now, go advance your mission. mission. mission. The interesting thing about this debate The interesting thing about this debate The interesting thing about this debate and I'm constantly torn by this as well and I'm constantly torn by this as well and I'm constantly torn by this as well is that one of the other things that you is that one of the other things that you is that one of the other things that you could be doing to prepare for this could be doing to prepare for this could be doing to prepare for this problem is start using more AI which problem is start using more AI which problem is start using more AI which seems to be counterintuitive right cuz seems to be counterintuitive right cuz seems to be counterintuitive right cuz my book isn't about how to use AI it's my book isn't about how to use AI it's my book isn't about how to use AI it's about all the information about all the information about all the information >> I know but I I think I just I wonder >> I know but I I think I just I wonder >> I know but I I think I just I wonder what your attitude to it is I mean you what your attitude to it is I mean you what your attitude to it is I mean you know just from my perspective you know know just from my perspective you know know just from my perspective you know one of the big things that we are seeing one of the big things that we are seeing one of the big things that we are seeing is that many churches are already using is that many churches are already using is that many churches are already using AI you said this yourself you know many AI you said this yourself you know many AI you said this yourself you know many of the pastors that you speak to are of the pastors that you speak to are of the pastors that you speak to are using it and it could be a massive tool using it and it could be a massive tool using it and it could be a massive tool for making ministries more efficient. I for making ministries more efficient. I for making ministries more efficient. I mean, I think we all know that many mean, I think we all know that many mean, I think we all know that many churches don't run uh to the kind of churches don't run uh to the kind of churches don't run uh to the kind of rigor that maybe Proctor and Gamble or rigor that maybe Proctor and Gamble or rigor that maybe Proctor and Gamble or Coca-Cola do, right? You know, they are Coca-Cola do, right? You know, they are Coca-Cola do, right? You know, they are not, you know, production lines with, not, you know, production lines with, not, you know, production lines with, you know, kind of KPIs and, you know, you know, kind of KPIs and, you know, you know, kind of KPIs and, you know, OKRs for every single uh line item uh in

OKRs for every single uh line item uh in OKRs for every single uh line item uh in the ministry. So, maybe AI can be a huge the ministry. So, maybe AI can be a huge the ministry. So, maybe AI can be a huge help into that, but I don't know if help into that, but I don't know if help into that, but I don't know if necessarily all ministers are seeing it necessarily all ministers are seeing it necessarily all ministers are seeing it that way. Well, and I think it's a great that way. Well, and I think it's a great that way. Well, and I think it's a great tool, Lenny, you talk about this about tool, Lenny, you talk about this about tool, Lenny, you talk about this about um pastoral care, for example. Um one of um pastoral care, for example. Um one of um pastoral care, for example. Um one of the things, and I was a lead pastor pre- the things, and I was a lead pastor pre- the things, and I was a lead pastor pre- AAI, uh understanding your database, AAI, uh understanding your database, AAI, uh understanding your database, it's massive. We had three or 4 thousand it's massive. We had three or 4 thousand it's massive. We had three or 4 thousand families who are associated with our families who are associated with our families who are associated with our church. I mean, what am I going to do? church. I mean, what am I going to do? church. I mean, what am I going to do? Sort that in Excel spreadsheet, James? Sort that in Excel spreadsheet, James? Sort that in Excel spreadsheet, James? Like, come on. Like, come on. Like, come on. you know, like so we would hire a you know, like so we would hire a you know, like so we would hire a consultant to come in and he would give consultant to come in and he would give consultant to come in and he would give me a report that showed five buckets of me a report that showed five buckets of me a report that showed five buckets of donors. It would be new donors, um, donors. It would be new donors, um, donors. It would be new donors, um, people who have increased their giving, people who have increased their giving, people who have increased their giving, stable donors, you know, within 10% of stable donors, you know, within 10% of stable donors, you know, within 10% of what they've always given, declining what they've always given, declining what they've always given, declining donors, and, um, people who stopped donors, and, um, people who stopped donors, and, um, people who stopped giving. So, what do you do about those giving. So, what do you do about those giving. So, what do you do about those five buckets? Well, the first one, new five buckets? Well, the first one, new five buckets? Well, the first one, new donors, you thank them. Like if somebody donors, you thank them. Like if somebody donors, you thank them. Like if somebody gives their first $10, that's a big deal gives their first $10, that's a big deal gives their first $10, that's a big deal and you thank them and you make them and you thank them and you make them and you thank them and you make them feel special and you honor them feel special and you honor them feel special and you honor them >> and whether it's $10 or $10,000, you >> and whether it's $10 or $10,000, you >> and whether it's $10 or $10,000, you just thank them. People who are just thank them. People who are just thank them. People who are increasing their giving, hey, way to go.

increasing their giving, hey, way to go. increasing their giving, hey, way to go. You know, you encourage them. You see You know, you encourage them. You see You know, you encourage them. You see how you can serve them. Stable givers, how you can serve them. Stable givers, how you can serve them. Stable givers, pat on the back. Thank you so much. But pat on the back. Thank you so much. But pat on the back. Thank you so much. But those last two categories, declining those last two categories, declining those last two categories, declining >> or um stopped giving, >> or um stopped giving, >> or um stopped giving, a lot of people would say, "Well, what a lot of people would say, "Well, what a lot of people would say, "Well, what do you do?" Hey, uh JP, I noticed uh you do you do?" Hey, uh JP, I noticed uh you do you do?" Hey, uh JP, I noticed uh you used to give 5,000 a year, you're now used to give 5,000 a year, you're now used to give 5,000 a year, you're now giving 500. Can you give more? No, you giving 500. Can you give more? No, you giving 500. Can you give more? No, you don't do that. That's a pastoral issue. don't do that. That's a pastoral issue. don't do that. That's a pastoral issue. It's a pastoral issue. You just call and It's a pastoral issue. You just call and It's a pastoral issue. You just call and you don't even mention the giving data. you don't even mention the giving data. you don't even mention the giving data. >> Hey Carrie, how you doing? Um we're >> Hey Carrie, how you doing? Um we're >> Hey Carrie, how you doing? Um we're taking some time just to connect with taking some time just to connect with taking some time just to connect with people at our church, pray for them. Is people at our church, pray for them. Is people at our church, pray for them. Is there anything I can help with? And there anything I can help with? And there anything I can help with? And that's maybe when you find out that I that's maybe when you find out that I that's maybe when you find out that I got laid off, got laid off, got laid off, >> right? Or you find out that someone got >> right? Or you find out that someone got >> right? Or you find out that someone got close to me got cancer and we have extra close to me got cancer and we have extra close to me got cancer and we have extra expenses or you found out I lost my job expenses or you found out I lost my job expenses or you found out I lost my job or you found out I moved away or you or you found out I moved away or you or you found out I moved away or you found out I am angry and I've left the found out I am angry and I've left the found out I am angry and I've left the church. church. church. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Well then that's a pastoral call and the >> Well then that's a pastoral call and the >> Well then that's a pastoral call and the churches that are doing this um and we churches that are doing this um and we churches that are doing this um and we did it. What you discover is that people did it. What you discover is that people did it. What you discover is that people just want to be cared for and they want just want to be cared for and they want just want to be cared for and they want to know you're cared and you didn't even to know you're cared and you didn't even to know you're cared and you didn't even mention money and all of a sudden mention money and all of a sudden mention money and all of a sudden somebody who just forgot. Maybe it was somebody who just forgot. Maybe it was somebody who just forgot. Maybe it was that their bank account stopped doing that their bank account stopped doing that their bank account stopped doing the automatic withdrawal and they hadn't the automatic withdrawal and they hadn't the automatic withdrawal and they hadn't looked but now the church is top of mind looked but now the church is top of mind looked but now the church is top of mind and they're like and we've had these and they're like and we've had these and they're like and we've had these calls at the office. Uh I noticed I calls at the office. Uh I noticed I calls at the office. Uh I noticed I haven't given since February. I'm really haven't given since February. I'm really haven't given since February. I'm really sorry. Can I catch up? Here's a bit of sorry. Can I catch up? Here's a bit of sorry. Can I catch up? Here's a bit of catchup. Can we get back on the wagon catchup. Can we get back on the wagon catchup. Can we get back on the wagon again?

again? again? >> Um so I mean think about that. What is >> Um so I mean think about that. What is >> Um so I mean think about that. What is that? That's pastoral care and AI can do that? That's pastoral care and AI can do that? That's pastoral care and AI can do that so much more efficiently than that so much more efficiently than that so much more efficiently than paying a consultant to comb through all paying a consultant to comb through all paying a consultant to comb through all that data and reading the columns. And that data and reading the columns. And that data and reading the columns. And then that allows you to do some personal then that allows you to do some personal then that allows you to do some personal care for people. care for people. care for people. >> And so maybe there's just something in >> And so maybe there's just something in >> And so maybe there's just something in there about learning how to be there about learning how to be there about learning how to be transparent about this stuff because you transparent about this stuff because you transparent about this stuff because you know the work like you say was probably know the work like you say was probably know the work like you say was probably being done before AI came along anyway. being done before AI came along anyway. being done before AI came along anyway. It's just it was very manual or was very It's just it was very manual or was very It's just it was very manual or was very expensive. But some people still feel expensive. But some people still feel expensive. But some people still feel weird about the idea that AI is in the weird about the idea that AI is in the weird about the idea that AI is in the mix doing these things. But I think if mix doing these things. But I think if mix doing these things. But I think if you explain it the way you've just you explain it the way you've just you explain it the way you've just explained it and be transparent about explained it and be transparent about explained it and be transparent about that stuff, then maybe people can be, that stuff, then maybe people can be, that stuff, then maybe people can be, you know, navigating those uh those you know, navigating those uh those you know, navigating those uh those pastoral challenges when someone says, pastoral challenges when someone says, pastoral challenges when someone says, "Hey, I don't want AI kind of looking at "Hey, I don't want AI kind of looking at "Hey, I don't want AI kind of looking at my giving behavior." my giving behavior." my giving behavior." >> No, no. And and and I understand that. >> No, no. And and and I understand that. >> No, no. And and and I understand that. And by the way, um if you're doing that And by the way, um if you're doing that And by the way, um if you're doing that on a free plan for chat GPT or Claude, on a free plan for chat GPT or Claude, on a free plan for chat GPT or Claude, don't. you're the more techy guy, but don't. you're the more techy guy, but don't. you're the more techy guy, but like pay for your services, set the like pay for your services, set the like pay for your services, set the privacy things, have a privacy policy privacy things, have a privacy policy privacy things, have a privacy policy because the last thing you want is to because the last thing you want is to because the last thing you want is to upload a spreadsheet in the cloud and upload a spreadsheet in the cloud and upload a spreadsheet in the cloud and have it leaked out to the public with have it leaked out to the public with have it leaked out to the public with people's data. I mean, you got to avoid people's data. I mean, you got to avoid people's data. I mean, you got to avoid that. That was an issue as soon as we that. That was an issue as soon as we that. That was an issue as soon as we went Well, it was always an issue.

went Well, it was always an issue. went Well, it was always an issue. People could get a thumb drive 20 years People could get a thumb drive 20 years People could get a thumb drive 20 years ago and ago and ago and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> misuse the data and then >> misuse the data and then >> misuse the data and then >> you can't get a thumb drive these days. >> you can't get a thumb drive these days. >> you can't get a thumb drive these days. They're too expensive. They're too expensive. They're too expensive. >> Exactly. [laughter] >> Exactly. [laughter] >> Exactly. [laughter] Um, you know, but another way to do it, Um, you know, but another way to do it, Um, you know, but another way to do it, uh, and and I do talk about this in in uh, and and I do talk about this in in uh, and and I do talk about this in in in the work I'm doing around AI is like in the work I'm doing around AI is like in the work I'm doing around AI is like one of the most neglected databases in one of the most neglected databases in one of the most neglected databases in the church is children's attendance. So, the church is children's attendance. So, the church is children's attendance. So, we don't have a way of really, and I'm we don't have a way of really, and I'm we don't have a way of really, and I'm not into surveillance cameras with AI not into surveillance cameras with AI not into surveillance cameras with AI detectors and people wearing metal detectors and people wearing metal detectors and people wearing metal glasses to dox you and find out the glasses to dox you and find out the glasses to dox you and find out the poulters were here or not. I mean, I've poulters were here or not. I mean, I've poulters were here or not. I mean, I've heard of some places doing that. heard of some places doing that. heard of some places doing that. >> I've seen I've seen some bad examples. >> I've seen I've seen some bad examples. >> I've seen I've seen some bad examples. >> Oh, no, no, no. I wouldn't go there. But >> Oh, no, no, no. I wouldn't go there. But >> Oh, no, no, no. I wouldn't go there. But I mean, you've you've got to check your I mean, you've you've got to check your I mean, you've you've got to check your kids in every week. Well, you can get a kids in every week. Well, you can get a kids in every week. Well, you can get a report using AI on families that are report using AI on families that are report using AI on families that are missing, families that have started missing, families that have started missing, families that have started attending. And again, the same way, just attending. And again, the same way, just attending. And again, the same way, just kind of encourage them and say, "Hey, kind of encourage them and say, "Hey, kind of encourage them and say, "Hey, we've noticed you started coming. Really we've noticed you started coming. Really we've noticed you started coming. Really appreciate it." Maybe they've never appreciate it." Maybe they've never appreciate it." Maybe they've never scanned the QR code or tapped the back scanned the QR code or tapped the back scanned the QR code or tapped the back of the chair to identify as adults, but of the chair to identify as adults, but of the chair to identify as adults, but they identified as kids. Or maybe a they identified as kids. Or maybe a they identified as kids. Or maybe a family's been missing all summer.

family's been missing all summer. family's been missing all summer. >> Just a wellness check. Hey, how's it >> Just a wellness check. Hey, how's it >> Just a wellness check. Hey, how's it going? We just wanted to see how you're going? We just wanted to see how you're going? We just wanted to see how you're doing. And if they're like, "Oh, we doing. And if they're like, "Oh, we doing. And if they're like, "Oh, we found another church." you say, "Hey, we found another church." you say, "Hey, we found another church." you say, "Hey, we wish you well. We hope it's a really wish you well. We hope it's a really wish you well. We hope it's a really good experience for you. You are always good experience for you. You are always good experience for you. You are always welcome back here." Like that personal welcome back here." Like that personal welcome back here." Like that personal touch AI can make things so much more touch AI can make things so much more touch AI can make things so much more personal and that's some pretty personal and that's some pretty personal and that's some pretty lowhanging fruit that churches often lowhanging fruit that churches often lowhanging fruit that churches often miss. So I want to bring you back to miss. So I want to bring you back to miss. So I want to bring you back to this um shop shock absorbers kind of this um shop shock absorbers kind of this um shop shock absorbers kind of piece. So you mentioned we talked about piece. So you mentioned we talked about piece. So you mentioned we talked about the kind of the financial side of the kind of the financial side of the kind of the financial side of things. One of the other big challenges things. One of the other big challenges things. One of the other big challenges that you identify in the book and have that you identify in the book and have that you identify in the book and have talked about at some length before and talked about at some length before and talked about at some length before and also I've spoke about on the podcast also I've spoke about on the podcast also I've spoke about on the podcast many times is around the unintended many times is around the unintended many times is around the unintended consequences perhaps of some of these consequences perhaps of some of these consequences perhaps of some of these tools we're you know we mentioned Mark tools we're you know we mentioned Mark tools we're you know we mentioned Mark Zuckerberg briefly before whilst Meta Zuckerberg briefly before whilst Meta Zuckerberg briefly before whilst Meta now seems to be a company that's mainly now seems to be a company that's mainly now seems to be a company that's mainly concerned about AI it's most of its concerned about AI it's most of its concerned about AI it's most of its money comes from social media um and it money comes from social media um and it money comes from social media um and it social media seems to be being flooded social media seems to be being flooded social media seems to be being flooded with AI at the moment I mean we could go with AI at the moment I mean we could go with AI at the moment I mean we could go in any direction on this but I think in in any direction on this but I think in in any direction on this but I think in particular one of the big challenges particular one of the big challenges particular one of the big challenges we've seen with social media in the we've seen with social media in the we've seen with social media in the recent years is the impact it's had on recent years is the impact it's had on recent years is the impact it's had on people's mental health and wellness.

people's mental health and wellness. people's mental health and wellness. It's not played out exactly, I think, as It's not played out exactly, I think, as It's not played out exactly, I think, as the kind of like funloving community. the kind of like funloving community. the kind of like funloving community. Everyone will kind of have rights to Everyone will kind of have rights to Everyone will kind of have rights to democracy and blogging that um you know, democracy and blogging that um you know, democracy and blogging that um you know, Zuck maybe had in mind when they first Zuck maybe had in mind when they first Zuck maybe had in mind when they first started Facebook. when it comes to kind started Facebook. when it comes to kind started Facebook. when it comes to kind of AI in this moment and we're already of AI in this moment and we're already of AI in this moment and we're already beginning to see kind of flash points of beginning to see kind of flash points of beginning to see kind of flash points of uh issues uh people falling in love with uh issues uh people falling in love with uh issues uh people falling in love with chat bots, people committing suicide chat bots, people committing suicide chat bots, people committing suicide very sadly or or self harm as a result very sadly or or self harm as a result very sadly or or self harm as a result of being given bad advice by AI of being given bad advice by AI of being given bad advice by AI services. Where do you see uh the the services. Where do you see uh the the services. Where do you see uh the the mental health issues coming when it mental health issues coming when it mental health issues coming when it comes to AI? And obviously for the comes to AI? And obviously for the comes to AI? And obviously for the church like how do how do we handle church like how do how do we handle church like how do how do we handle this? How do we respond to it? Well, this? How do we respond to it? Well, this? How do we respond to it? Well, there's a couple things in that question there's a couple things in that question there's a couple things in that question and I want to go back to social media and I want to go back to social media and I want to go back to social media because I was wrong on how I saw social because I was wrong on how I saw social because I was wrong on how I saw social media when it first came out. So, around media when it first came out. So, around media when it first came out. So, around 2005, 2005, 2005, social media really started to pop up. I social media really started to pop up. I social media really started to pop up. I think Twitter started I was using it think Twitter started I was using it think Twitter started I was using it when you still had to text to Twitter. when you still had to text to Twitter. when you still had to text to Twitter. >> Yeah, same. Yeah. Yeah. You remember >> Yeah, same. Yeah. Yeah. You remember >> Yeah, same. Yeah. Yeah. You remember that? Okay. I'm like, you're not old that? Okay. I'm like, you're not old that? Okay. I'm like, you're not old enough. Yes, you are. enough. Yes, you are. enough. Yes, you are. >> No. No. I that was my my first job was >> No. No. I that was my my first job was >> No. No. I that was my my first job was in social media in like 2005. So, it's in social media in like 2005. So, it's in social media in like 2005. So, it's just just there.

just just there. just just there. >> So, Facebook comes along. that escapes >> So, Facebook comes along. that escapes >> So, Facebook comes along. that escapes the college campuses. And I thought it the college campuses. And I thought it the college campuses. And I thought it was great. Here's some people I haven't was great. Here's some people I haven't was great. Here's some people I haven't talked to in 10 years. Here's some talked to in 10 years. Here's some talked to in 10 years. Here's some people I can see what's going on in people I can see what's going on in people I can see what's going on in their lives, which was its first use. their lives, which was its first use. their lives, which was its first use. And I I taught this at our church. And I I taught this at our church. And I I taught this at our church. People parents would say, "Should we be People parents would say, "Should we be People parents would say, "Should we be concerned about it?" And I said, concerned about it?" And I said, concerned about it?" And I said, "Technology isn't good or evil. It just "Technology isn't good or evil. It just "Technology isn't good or evil. It just reveals and amplifies what's already reveals and amplifies what's already reveals and amplifies what's already there." Cuz I looked at the printing there." Cuz I looked at the printing there." Cuz I looked at the printing press and you can print porn or you can press and you can print porn or you can press and you can print porn or you can print the scripture. You can print a print the scripture. You can print a print the scripture. You can print a Bible commentary or you can print hate Bible commentary or you can print hate Bible commentary or you can print hate literature. I thought it's neutral. And literature. I thought it's neutral. And literature. I thought it's neutral. And then, as you mentioned, 10 years ago, we then, as you mentioned, 10 years ago, we then, as you mentioned, 10 years ago, we started to pick up on all of these started to pick up on all of these started to pick up on all of these unintended consequences. Why is teen unintended consequences. Why is teen unintended consequences. Why is teen mental health, college age mental health mental health, college age mental health mental health, college age mental health plummeting? What's really going on? And plummeting? What's really going on? And plummeting? What's really going on? And then we started getting data about then we started getting data about then we started getting data about people doing less in real life. Like, I people doing less in real life. Like, I people doing less in real life. Like, I didn't see that in 2007. I didn't see didn't see that in 2007. I didn't see didn't see that in 2007. I didn't see it. I don't think I don't know that it. I don't think I don't know that it. I don't think I don't know that anybody did. We all kind of thought it anybody did. We all kind of thought it anybody did. We all kind of thought it was innocent. And now I'm like with AI, was innocent. And now I'm like with AI, was innocent. And now I'm like with AI, I'm not going to get fooled twice. So I'm not going to get fooled twice. So I'm not going to get fooled twice. So what's happening? There's a stat that what's happening? There's a stat that what's happening? There's a stat that really bothers me. I think about it really bothers me. I think about it really bothers me. I think about it regularly. Uh 73% of teenagers are regularly. Uh 73% of teenagers are regularly. Uh 73% of teenagers are having conversations with an AI chatbot.

having conversations with an AI chatbot. having conversations with an AI chatbot. You know, whether that's chat or um or You know, whether that's chat or um or You know, whether that's chat or um or uh Claude or whoever, they're talking to uh Claude or whoever, they're talking to uh Claude or whoever, they're talking to AI. So that's pretty widespread AI. So that's pretty widespread AI. So that's pretty widespread adoption. But 31% of teenagers say they adoption. But 31% of teenagers say they adoption. But 31% of teenagers say they would rather talk to an AI than a human would rather talk to an AI than a human would rather talk to an AI than a human being. being. being. Loneliness continues to spiral. Um, Loneliness continues to spiral. Um, Loneliness continues to spiral. Um, Scott Galloway says something like 45% Scott Galloway says something like 45% Scott Galloway says something like 45% of men have never talked to a woman in of men have never talked to a woman in of men have never talked to a woman in real life, which is why you have so many real life, which is why you have so many real life, which is why you have so many single men. So, what is AI going to do? single men. So, what is AI going to do? single men. So, what is AI going to do? Look at the problem of pornography. Look at the problem of pornography. Look at the problem of pornography. Every pastor has had to, if you're not Every pastor has had to, if you're not Every pastor has had to, if you're not dealing with it personally, you're dealing with it personally, you're dealing with it personally, you're dealing with it congregationally. dealing with it congregationally. dealing with it congregationally. And as horrible as porn is, because And as horrible as porn is, because And as horrible as porn is, because every single person in a photograph or every single person in a photograph or every single person in a photograph or in a video is a child of God made in the in a video is a child of God made in the in a video is a child of God made in the image of God, who is somebody's image of God, who is somebody's image of God, who is somebody's daughter, son, brother, sister, parent, daughter, son, brother, sister, parent, daughter, son, brother, sister, parent, like we got to think about that like we got to think about that like we got to think about that theologically. theologically. theologically. But AI But AI But AI um um um is is, you know, AI porn, and this is is is, you know, AI porn, and this is is is, you know, AI porn, and this is something I've read about but have not something I've read about but have not something I've read about but have not explored. So, I'm giving you third-hand explored. So, I'm giving you third-hand explored. So, I'm giving you third-hand knowledge. I don't want to ever explore knowledge. I don't want to ever explore knowledge. I don't want to ever explore it. You can create avatars and I've got it. You can create avatars and I've got it. You can create avatars and I've got one in a slide deck for when we go out one in a slide deck for when we go out one in a slide deck for when we go out on the road speaking about it. And this on the road speaking about it. And this on the road speaking about it. And this is just off. Have you heard of Candy AI?

is just off. Have you heard of Candy AI? is just off. Have you heard of Candy AI? Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Candy.AI. I just went to their homepage. >> Candy.AI. I just went to their homepage. >> Candy.AI. I just went to their homepage. Did not set up an account. Just grabbed Did not set up an account. Just grabbed Did not set up an account. Just grabbed a screen capture. So these three a screen capture. So these three a screen capture. So these three avatars. Maybe we can show it for those avatars. Maybe we can show it for those avatars. Maybe we can show it for those of you who are watching on YouTube of um of you who are watching on YouTube of um of you who are watching on YouTube of um 19year-old, 19year-old, 21-year-old. 19year-old, 19year-old, 21-year-old. 19year-old, 19year-old, 21-year-old. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's like this is almost child porn. >> It's like this is almost child porn. >> It's like this is almost child porn. >> Yeah. And it's really risque really on >> Yeah. And it's really risque really on >> Yeah. And it's really risque really on the the the >> really risque and they're all some kind >> really risque and they're all some kind >> really risque and they're all some kind of and you can get lifelike images, of and you can get lifelike images, of and you can get lifelike images, cartoon images, anime images. And then cartoon images, anime images. And then cartoon images, anime images. And then these are AI that talk to you that know these are AI that talk to you that know these are AI that talk to you that know all your data that do exactly what you all your data that do exactly what you all your data that do exactly what you want. So we've already seen sex in real want. So we've already seen sex in real want. So we've already seen sex in real life decline because of porn and no life decline because of porn and no life decline because of porn and no human being can really keep up to human being can really keep up to human being can really keep up to whatever is happening on the internet or whatever is happening on the internet or whatever is happening on the internet or Pornhub or that kind of thing. Like real Pornhub or that kind of thing. Like real Pornhub or that kind of thing. Like real human beings do not have sex the way human beings do not have sex the way human beings do not have sex the way porn has sex. Well, real human beings porn has sex. Well, real human beings porn has sex. Well, real human beings don't have sex the way AI has sex. And don't have sex the way AI has sex. And don't have sex the way AI has sex. And yeah, yeah, yeah, >> you know, I've been married for 36 >> you know, I've been married for 36 >> you know, I've been married for 36 years. I have an amazing wife. She has years. I have an amazing wife. She has years. I have an amazing wife. She has bad days. I have bad days. I get her bad days. I have bad days. I get her bad days. I have bad days. I get her upset. Occasionally, she gets me upset.

upset. Occasionally, she gets me upset. upset. Occasionally, she gets me upset. Human relationships are rupture and Human relationships are rupture and Human relationships are rupture and repair. repair. repair. >> And even if you're like, "Well, I would >> And even if you're like, "Well, I would >> And even if you're like, "Well, I would never have a sexual relationship with an never have a sexual relationship with an never have a sexual relationship with an AI." Great. But let's say you started AI." Great. But let's say you started AI." Great. But let's say you started turning to your AI for the number one turning to your AI for the number one turning to your AI for the number one use of AI today according to Harvard use of AI today according to Harvard use of AI today according to Harvard Business Review in 2025 and 2026 is Business Review in 2025 and 2026 is Business Review in 2025 and 2026 is therapy and companionship. That's right. therapy and companionship. That's right. therapy and companionship. That's right. >> So my wife's having a bad day and I >> So my wife's having a bad day and I >> So my wife's having a bad day and I start talking to Chad not about my next start talking to Chad not about my next start talking to Chad not about my next project but about my life and Chad's project but about my life and Chad's project but about my life and Chad's like, "Oh, I so understand." I mean, like, "Oh, I so understand." I mean, like, "Oh, I so understand." I mean, it's sickopantic. It's empathetic in its it's sickopantic. It's empathetic in its it's sickopantic. It's empathetic in its current thing. It always says, "You're current thing. It always says, "You're current thing. It always says, "You're right." right." right." Um, and then I go and see my wife and Um, and then I go and see my wife and Um, and then I go and see my wife and it's like, oh, this is not going well. A it's like, oh, this is not going well. A it's like, oh, this is not going well. A lot of people have fallen in love with lot of people have fallen in love with lot of people have fallen in love with their AIS, developed a sexual their AIS, developed a sexual their AIS, developed a sexual relationship with their IIS, or even if relationship with their IIS, or even if relationship with their IIS, or even if it's platonic, it's platonic, it's platonic, it's not a real relationship. And that it's not a real relationship. And that it's not a real relationship. And that person isn't even real. I have medical person isn't even real. I have medical person isn't even real. I have medical friends, uh, a friend of mine, she's a friends, uh, a friend of mine, she's a friends, uh, a friend of mine, she's a physician, and she was treating someone physician, and she was treating someone physician, and she was treating someone in the emergency room, and they brought in the emergency room, and they brought in the emergency room, and they brought their AI in to listen in on the their AI in to listen in on the their AI in to listen in on the conversation and be the friend, not a conversation and be the friend, not a conversation and be the friend, not a sister, not a brother, not a spouse, sister, not a brother, not a spouse, sister, not a brother, not a spouse, their AI in on their phone to do the their AI in on their phone to do the their AI in on their phone to do the whole encounter. I'm like, what is going whole encounter. I'm like, what is going whole encounter. I'm like, what is going on, man? So, you know, when 31% of on, man? So, you know, when 31% of on, man? So, you know, when 31% of teenagers prefer an AI relationship to a teenagers prefer an AI relationship to a teenagers prefer an AI relationship to a human relationship, human relationship, human relationship, I think the church can we can teach I think the church can we can teach I think the church can we can teach people. Yeah.

people. Yeah. people. Yeah. >> Um, no, human relationship is rupture >> Um, no, human relationship is rupture >> Um, no, human relationship is rupture and repair. You look at all of and repair. You look at all of and repair. You look at all of scripture, Genesis to Revelation, with scripture, Genesis to Revelation, with scripture, Genesis to Revelation, with the exception of Jesus the exception of Jesus the exception of Jesus >> and the first chapter of Genesis >> and the first chapter of Genesis >> and the first chapter of Genesis >> and second, >> and second, >> and second, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> it's rupture and repair. Rapture and >> it's rupture and repair. Rapture and >> it's rupture and repair. Rapture and repair. The Old Testament is a repair. The Old Testament is a repair. The Old Testament is a collection of very flawed people that collection of very flawed people that collection of very flawed people that God used. You know what is second God used. You know what is second God used. You know what is second Corinthians? Basically an apology for Corinthians? Basically an apology for Corinthians? Basically an apology for first Corinthians. Like Paul had his first Corinthians. Like Paul had his first Corinthians. Like Paul had his issues. That's right. Yeah. We're we we issues. That's right. Yeah. We're we we issues. That's right. Yeah. We're we we idolize these people, but they are just idolize these people, but they are just idolize these people, but they are just like us and they're living in real like us and they're living in real like us and they're living in real relationships and they have family relationships and they have family relationships and they have family dysfunction. And you read the Pentatuk dysfunction. And you read the Pentatuk dysfunction. And you read the Pentatuk and it could be the real housewives of and it could be the real housewives of and it could be the real housewives of Israel. Like it's crazy. So, Israel. Like it's crazy. So, Israel. Like it's crazy. So, >> you know, I think what we have to say is >> you know, I think what we have to say is >> you know, I think what we have to say is no, this is human relationship. And no, this is human relationship. And no, this is human relationship. And yeah, it might be disappointing yeah, it might be disappointing yeah, it might be disappointing initially or in your youth group right initially or in your youth group right initially or in your youth group right now, there's a 14-year-old whose first now, there's a 14-year-old whose first now, there's a 14-year-old whose first girlfriend is an AI. girlfriend is an AI. girlfriend is an AI. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This is not in the future. This is >> This is not in the future. This is >> This is not in the future. This is today. So, and church leaders aren't today. So, and church leaders aren't today. So, and church leaders aren't prepared for that, are they? I mean, prepared for that, are they? I mean, prepared for that, are they? I mean, that conversation to kind of be there that conversation to kind of be there that conversation to kind of be there having it. And at the same time, I having it. And at the same time, I having it. And at the same time, I think, you know, many would say that think, you know, many would say that think, you know, many would say that this isn't a problem because of AI. It's this isn't a problem because of AI. It's this isn't a problem because of AI. It's a problem in the church of what we've a problem in the church of what we've a problem in the church of what we've lacked doing in disciplehip, right? And lacked doing in disciplehip, right? And lacked doing in disciplehip, right? And like, yeah, the loneliness epidemic was like, yeah, the loneliness epidemic was like, yeah, the loneliness epidemic was started long before AI came along. like started long before AI came along. like started long before AI came along. like where do you place if you can the the where do you place if you can the the where do you place if you can the the blame of this topic like is it the fault blame of this topic like is it the fault blame of this topic like is it the fault of AI creating really good companions or of AI creating really good companions or of AI creating really good companions or is it the fault of churches not creating is it the fault of churches not creating is it the fault of churches not creating very good companions I think it's the very good companions I think it's the very good companions I think it's the heart of a human being it is we when we heart of a human being it is we when we heart of a human being it is we when we create a a seemingly neutral technology

create a a seemingly neutral technology create a a seemingly neutral technology we find a way to use it for good we find we find a way to use it for good we find we find a way to use it for good we find a way to use it for evil fire is a way to use it for evil fire is a way to use it for evil fire is beautiful if you're sitting around the beautiful if you're sitting around the beautiful if you're sitting around the fire pit on a fall night in the backyard fire pit on a fall night in the backyard fire pit on a fall night in the backyard and I can burn down my neighbor's house and I can burn down my neighbor's house and I can burn down my neighbor's house with it. That's that's a reality. Now, with it. That's that's a reality. Now, with it. That's that's a reality. Now, what I think we're lacking, we're a what I think we're lacking, we're a what I think we're lacking, we're a little bit behind. Pastors don't feel little bit behind. Pastors don't feel little bit behind. Pastors don't feel equipped. I think the last stat I looked equipped. I think the last stat I looked equipped. I think the last stat I looked at from Bara was 13% of pastors felt at from Bara was 13% of pastors felt at from Bara was 13% of pastors felt equipped to talk about AI. That's why I equipped to talk about AI. That's why I equipped to talk about AI. That's why I spent a lot of time about how do you spent a lot of time about how do you spent a lot of time about how do you talk about AI? And I think we'd like to talk about AI? And I think we'd like to talk about AI? And I think we'd like to We have enough problems, okay, in the We have enough problems, okay, in the We have enough problems, okay, in the church, we have enough problems. I don't church, we have enough problems. I don't church, we have enough problems. I don't need AI. I don't want to think about it. need AI. I don't want to think about it. need AI. I don't want to think about it. I don't want to deal with a potential I don't want to deal with a potential I don't want to deal with a potential drop in giving. Do you know how hard it drop in giving. Do you know how hard it drop in giving. Do you know how hard it was to raise money in good times? We was to raise money in good times? We was to raise money in good times? We have enough mental health crises. We're have enough mental health crises. We're have enough mental health crises. We're going to be overwhelmed if this happens. going to be overwhelmed if this happens. going to be overwhelmed if this happens. I just can't deal with it. I just can't. I just can't deal with it. I just can't. I just can't deal with it. I just can't. That's ministry. And I think we can That's ministry. And I think we can That's ministry. And I think we can figure this out. The the other thing figure this out. The the other thing figure this out. The the other thing like I one of the build the shock like I one of the build the shock like I one of the build the shock absorbers pieces of advice I've been absorbers pieces of advice I've been absorbers pieces of advice I've been thinking about is what do you do for thinking about is what do you do for thinking about is what do you do for pastoral care? And again, when I was a pastoral care? And again, when I was a pastoral care? And again, when I was a lead pastor, which is now a decade ago, lead pastor, which is now a decade ago, lead pastor, which is now a decade ago, 11 years ago, um there were two ways. We 11 years ago, um there were two ways. We 11 years ago, um there were two ways. We we did have small groups and we had we did have small groups and we had we did have small groups and we had amazing serving teams and a lot of stuff amazing serving teams and a lot of stuff amazing serving teams and a lot of stuff got hammered out in small groups got hammered out in small groups got hammered out in small groups >> and it got hammered out. But often we've >> and it got hammered out. But often we've >> and it got hammered out. But often we've all been in groups where somebody has a all been in groups where somebody has a all been in groups where somebody has a need bigger than the group. The group need bigger than the group. The group need bigger than the group. The group isn't their therapy session.

isn't their therapy session. isn't their therapy session. >> So, um when our church grew to a certain >> So, um when our church grew to a certain >> So, um when our church grew to a certain size, I couldn't do counseling anymore size, I couldn't do counseling anymore size, I couldn't do counseling anymore because it just didn't fit. And I wasn't because it just didn't fit. And I wasn't because it just didn't fit. And I wasn't a very good one to be honest with you. a very good one to be honest with you. a very good one to be honest with you. I'm better at counseling 4,000 people I'm better at counseling 4,000 people I'm better at counseling 4,000 people than four in my office and just not very than four in my office and just not very than four in my office and just not very good at it. I didn't have the toolkit. good at it. I didn't have the toolkit. good at it. I didn't have the toolkit. So, we referred out. We had a list of So, we referred out. We had a list of So, we referred out. We had a list of counselors counselors counselors >> that we would refer people to and if >> that we would refer people to and if >> that we would refer people to and if they couldn't afford it, we would make they couldn't afford it, we would make they couldn't afford it, we would make it available. Well, Shanty Feldon and it available. Well, Shanty Feldon and it available. Well, Shanty Feldon and James Cells came out with a great book. James Cells came out with a great book. James Cells came out with a great book. I had the privilege of writing a forward I had the privilege of writing a forward I had the privilege of writing a forward and they talked about the escalating and they talked about the escalating and they talked about the escalating mental health crisis and most churches mental health crisis and most churches mental health crisis and most churches are overwhelmed. So even when I was a are overwhelmed. So even when I was a are overwhelmed. So even when I was a pastor, number one question if I'm pastor, number one question if I'm pastor, number one question if I'm somebody met with me and I'm like, you somebody met with me and I'm like, you somebody met with me and I'm like, you know what, know what, know what, >> James, have you thought about >> James, have you thought about >> James, have you thought about counseling? I think you and your wife counseling? I think you and your wife counseling? I think you and your wife maybe could benefit from it. You know, maybe could benefit from it. You know, maybe could benefit from it. You know, the number one thing that would come the number one thing that would come the number one thing that would come back almost every time. back almost every time. back almost every time. >> Can't afford it. Can't afford it. Can't >> Can't afford it. Can't afford it. Can't >> Can't afford it. Can't afford it. Can't Well, you can afford Netflix and a brand Well, you can afford Netflix and a brand Well, you can afford Netflix and a brand new iPhone and a new car I see in the new iPhone and a new car I see in the new iPhone and a new car I see in the parking lot, but you can't afford parking lot, but you can't afford parking lot, but you can't afford counseling. So, you know, roll your eyes counseling. So, you know, roll your eyes counseling. So, you know, roll your eyes as a pastor. But that's a reality for as a pastor. But that's a reality for as a pastor. But that's a reality for most um pastors. most um pastors. most um pastors. um they suggest that you can empower the um they suggest that you can empower the um they suggest that you can empower the ley. If you think about it, a lot more ley. If you think about it, a lot more ley. If you think about it, a lot more people have the gift of pastoral care people have the gift of pastoral care people have the gift of pastoral care than have the gift of teaching or than have the gift of teaching or than have the gift of teaching or preaching or leadership.

preaching or leadership. preaching or leadership. >> You have people in your church and 98% >> You have people in your church and 98% >> You have people in your church and 98% of pastoral care, I believe, is having of pastoral care, I believe, is having of pastoral care, I believe, is having someone who cares. someone who cares. someone who cares. >> Doesn't have to be the pastor. Doesn't >> Doesn't have to be the pastor. Doesn't >> Doesn't have to be the pastor. Doesn't have to be a trained counselor. have to be a trained counselor. have to be a trained counselor. Sometimes it needs to be a trained Sometimes it needs to be a trained Sometimes it needs to be a trained counselor. Sometimes it needs to be a counselor. Sometimes it needs to be a counselor. Sometimes it needs to be a physician. physician. physician. >> But often if you just sit down with >> But often if you just sit down with >> But often if you just sit down with someone, someone, someone, >> because remember how lonely we are. >> because remember how lonely we are. >> because remember how lonely we are. nobody's got people to talk to. If you nobody's got people to talk to. If you nobody's got people to talk to. If you just sit down with someone and you just sit down with someone and you just sit down with someone and you listen, listen, listen, a lot of it goes away and then they get a lot of it goes away and then they get a lot of it goes away and then they get that out of their system. You give them, that out of their system. You give them, that out of their system. You give them, you know, a little triage and they're you know, a little triage and they're you know, a little triage and they're better. And if it needs to be escalated, better. And if it needs to be escalated, better. And if it needs to be escalated, great. We have a counseling program or great. We have a counseling program or great. We have a counseling program or we have staff for that or we're going to we have staff for that or we're going to we have staff for that or we're going to refer you out and subsidize it or refer you out and subsidize it or refer you out and subsidize it or whatever. But I think we can do that whatever. But I think we can do that whatever. But I think we can do that now. And if we build that structure now. And if we build that structure now. And if we build that structure which is not that cumbersome where we which is not that cumbersome where we which is not that cumbersome where we learn to teach the body of Christ to learn to teach the body of Christ to learn to teach the body of Christ to care for each other. I think the care for each other. I think the care for each other. I think the scripture says something about that. I'm scripture says something about that. I'm scripture says something about that. I'm pretty sure I've read that pretty sure I've read that pretty sure I've read that >> comes up. Yeah. >> comes up. Yeah. >> comes up. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. If we do that then I think >> Yeah. Yeah. If we do that then I think >> Yeah. Yeah. If we do that then I think we've also built some some shock we've also built some some shock we've also built some some shock absorbers so that we've increased our absorbers so that we've increased our absorbers so that we've increased our capacity rather than saying sorry the capacity rather than saying sorry the capacity rather than saying sorry the staff can't meet with you and there's a staff can't meet with you and there's a staff can't meet with you and there's a two-year wait list to get into our local two-year wait list to get into our local two-year wait list to get into our local counselors and it's expensive. Like we counselors and it's expensive. Like we counselors and it's expensive. Like we can do a lot of this on the ground. So can do a lot of this on the ground. So can do a lot of this on the ground. So there's some specific strategies I would there's some specific strategies I would there's some specific strategies I would recommend to to get us ready for that as recommend to to get us ready for that as recommend to to get us ready for that as well. And I think that'll probably take well. And I think that'll probably take well. And I think that'll probably take the backlog out of your current need.

the backlog out of your current need. the backlog out of your current need. And you know, you think, well, we And you know, you think, well, we And you know, you think, well, we already have a backlog. Yeah. But do you already have a backlog. Yeah. But do you already have a backlog. Yeah. But do you know how many people are struggling who know how many people are struggling who know how many people are struggling who haven't reached out for help? And if we haven't reached out for help? And if we haven't reached out for help? And if we could be the hospital, that's really could be the hospital, that's really could be the hospital, that's really hospital and hospitality are rooted in hospital and hospitality are rooted in hospital and hospitality are rooted in the same word. Then I think we're going the same word. Then I think we're going the same word. Then I think we're going to have a healthier body of Christ. and to have a healthier body of Christ. and to have a healthier body of Christ. and a healthier body of Christ is in a much a healthier body of Christ is in a much a healthier body of Christ is in a much better position to minister to a hurting better position to minister to a hurting better position to minister to a hurting world rather than I'm sharing my world rather than I'm sharing my world rather than I'm sharing my dysfunction with you who has dysfunction dysfunction with you who has dysfunction dysfunction with you who has dysfunction and I don't know how to make it better and I don't know how to make it better and I don't know how to make it better in Jesus. in Jesus. in Jesus. >> I don't know how to deal with that. >> I don't know how to deal with that. >> I don't know how to deal with that. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] So, so that's why I really think and and So, so that's why I really think and and So, so that's why I really think and and again we all want to think this is in again we all want to think this is in again we all want to think this is in the future and a lot of us led through the future and a lot of us led through the future and a lot of us led through COVID and we're still limping a little COVID and we're still limping a little COVID and we're still limping a little bit or tired or we wse every time we see bit or tired or we wse every time we see bit or tired or we wse every time we see a mask and we're like I don't have the a mask and we're like I don't have the a mask and we're like I don't have the capacity for this. I I don't um Well, capacity for this. I I don't um Well, capacity for this. I I don't um Well, God knew this was coming. He's God knew this was coming. He's God knew this was coming. He's positioned us for this moment. And the positioned us for this moment. And the positioned us for this moment. And the irony is, you know, people like me and irony is, you know, people like me and irony is, you know, people like me and and others often say, "Seminary didn't and others often say, "Seminary didn't and others often say, "Seminary didn't prepare you for this."

prepare you for this." prepare you for this." >> I think there's a lot of things seminary >> I think there's a lot of things seminary >> I think there's a lot of things seminary didn't prepare people for. didn't prepare people for. didn't prepare people for. >> No, absolutely not. But you know what? >> No, absolutely not. But you know what? >> No, absolutely not. But you know what? It did prepare you for caring for people It did prepare you for caring for people It did prepare you for caring for people and building the systems. And it it it and building the systems. And it it it and building the systems. And it it it prepared you to do community. And the prepared you to do community. And the prepared you to do community. And the scripture prepares you to do community. scripture prepares you to do community. scripture prepares you to do community. and it prepared you for integrity. So, I and it prepared you for integrity. So, I and it prepared you for integrity. So, I actually think the skills that most of actually think the skills that most of actually think the skills that most of us learned are going to be the most us learned are going to be the most us learned are going to be the most valuable ones. And yeah, go prompt away valuable ones. And yeah, go prompt away valuable ones. And yeah, go prompt away and figure out how to automate the and figure out how to automate the and figure out how to automate the systems and all that stuff and, you systems and all that stuff and, you systems and all that stuff and, you know, become a better writer or editor, know, become a better writer or editor, know, become a better writer or editor, but but really a lot of this stuff is but but really a lot of this stuff is but but really a lot of this stuff is analog and in-person analog and in-person analog and in-person and in real life. Like in the UK, you and in real life. Like in the UK, you and in real life. Like in the UK, you guys have seen this. I'm teaching twice guys have seen this. I'm teaching twice guys have seen this. I'm teaching twice or going to be in the US or UK twice or going to be in the US or UK twice or going to be in the US or UK twice next year next year next year >> teaching a bunch of pastors uh from the >> teaching a bunch of pastors uh from the >> teaching a bunch of pastors uh from the Alpha HTB network. And one of the things Alpha HTB network. And one of the things Alpha HTB network. And one of the things I'm amazed is you look at youth Gen Z I'm amazed is you look at youth Gen Z I'm amazed is you look at youth Gen Z attendance in the UK has honestly gone attendance in the UK has honestly gone attendance in the UK has honestly gone up meaningfully and there were problems up meaningfully and there were problems up meaningfully and there were problems with some data that came out with some data that came out with some data that came out >> but there was a stat that really caught >> but there was a stat that really caught >> but there was a stat that really caught my attention. If you look at the average my attention. If you look at the average my attention. If you look at the average 24 year old in London, the United 24 year old in London, the United 24 year old in London, the United Kingdom, and say, "Do you feel cared for Kingdom, and say, "Do you feel cared for Kingdom, and say, "Do you feel cared for and valuable?" majority say no. If and valuable?" majority say no. If and valuable?" majority say no. If they're attending church, 68% say yes.

they're attending church, 68% say yes. they're attending church, 68% say yes. It's like a major flip. So, it's just It's like a major flip. So, it's just It's like a major flip. So, it's just getting people into community, getting getting people into community, getting getting people into community, getting people into real life, and connecting people into real life, and connecting people into real life, and connecting them with God and with each other. them with God and with each other. them with God and with each other. Jesus, you know, gave us the greatest Jesus, you know, gave us the greatest Jesus, you know, gave us the greatest commandment. Love the Lord your God with commandment. Love the Lord your God with commandment. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and all your heart, mind, soul, and all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And love your neighbor as strength. And love your neighbor as strength. And love your neighbor as yourself. I think that is going to be yourself. I think that is going to be yourself. I think that is going to be first of all, people don't know they first of all, people don't know they first of all, people don't know they need it. Secondly, if we offer it, I need it. Secondly, if we offer it, I need it. Secondly, if we offer it, I think it is going to be like medicine to think it is going to be like medicine to think it is going to be like medicine to a gaping wound. And it's because most a gaping wound. And it's because most a gaping wound. And it's because most people don't know their neighbor and people don't know their neighbor and people don't know their neighbor and most let alone love their neighbor, most let alone love their neighbor, most let alone love their neighbor, right? So I think that's the real right? So I think that's the real right? So I think that's the real challenge that you mentioned the stuff challenge that you mentioned the stuff challenge that you mentioned the stuff that's happening here in the UK but that's happening here in the UK but that's happening here in the UK but we've seen it in other places as well we've seen it in other places as well we've seen it in other places as well that there seems to be a search for that there seems to be a search for that there seems to be a search for authenticity something real and you talk authenticity something real and you talk authenticity something real and you talk about this in the book a little bit about this in the book a little bit about this in the book a little bit about like the world has become quite about like the world has become quite about like the world has become quite artificial and I think postcoid's an artificial and I think postcoid's an artificial and I think postcoid's an interesting time for a frame for us to interesting time for a frame for us to interesting time for a frame for us to look at in the past kind of five or six look at in the past kind of five or six look at in the past kind of five or six years we've seen a massive explosion of years we've seen a massive explosion of years we've seen a massive explosion of churches streaming and then rolling back churches streaming and then rolling back churches streaming and then rolling back from that the explosion of the podcast from that the explosion of the podcast from that the explosion of the podcast media like if you're a pastor without a media like if you're a pastor without a media like if you're a pastor without a podcast like what are you doing like podcast like what are you doing like podcast like what are you doing like that seems to be kind of impossible. And that seems to be kind of impossible. And that seems to be kind of impossible. And then in the past kind of 18 then in the past kind of 18 then in the past kind of 18 [clears throat] to 24 months, there [clears throat] to 24 months, there [clears throat] to 24 months, there seems to be this resurgence in searching seems to be this resurgence in searching seems to be this resurgence in searching for authenticity in the church. Again, for authenticity in the church. Again, for authenticity in the church. Again, we're seeing crowds showing up basically we're seeing crowds showing up basically we're seeing crowds showing up basically everything post the kind of Asbury, you everything post the kind of Asbury, you everything post the kind of Asbury, you know, kind of moment which you've spoken know, kind of moment which you've spoken know, kind of moment which you've spoken about before that there is an outpouring about before that there is an outpouring about before that there is an outpouring of people looking for something real.

of people looking for something real. of people looking for something real. this kind of whether it's response to this kind of whether it's response to this kind of whether it's response to loneliness or response to the loneliness or response to the loneliness or response to the artificiality of just life around them artificiality of just life around them artificiality of just life around them and AI doesn't seem to be really helping and AI doesn't seem to be really helping and AI doesn't seem to be really helping in that feeling just when it comes to in that feeling just when it comes to in that feeling just when it comes to the church trying to be more quote the church trying to be more quote the church trying to be more quote unquote human what does what does that unquote human what does what does that unquote human what does what does that actually mean what does it mean for a actually mean what does it mean for a actually mean what does it mean for a church to feel more human church to feel more human church to feel more human >> one of the shifts we have to make is to >> one of the shifts we have to make is to >> one of the shifts we have to make is to move from crowd to community move from crowd to community move from crowd to community >> so uh online church is great um I've >> so uh online church is great um I've >> so uh online church is great um I've been a proponent of it everybody you been a proponent of it everybody you been a proponent of it everybody you want to reach is online any vacation want to reach is online any vacation want to reach is online any vacation you've done in the last 10 years. You've you've done in the last 10 years. You've you've done in the last 10 years. You've googled it to death. You've you've been googled it to death. You've you've been googled it to death. You've you've been there before. You've been there. And there before. You've been there. And there before. You've been there. And that's how people respond. Even in that's how people respond. Even in that's how people respond. Even in church, when I was leading Kexus like 10 church, when I was leading Kexus like 10 church, when I was leading Kexus like 10 years ago, 11 years ago, I would meet years ago, 11 years ago, I would meet years ago, 11 years ago, I would meet someone and they'd say, "It's my first someone and they'd say, "It's my first someone and they'd say, "It's my first Sunday, but I've been, you know, part of Sunday, but I've been, you know, part of Sunday, but I've been, you know, part of your church for 6 months or a year. your church for 6 months or a year. your church for 6 months or a year. How?" Oh, I've been watching online or How?" Oh, I've been watching online or How?" Oh, I've been watching online or Okay, interesting. So, they figure Okay, interesting. So, they figure Okay, interesting. So, they figure that's their entry point and they're that's their entry point and they're that's their entry point and they're just showing up. But and so that's just showing up. But and so that's just showing up. But and so that's raised a big question after co like 97% raised a big question after co like 97% raised a big question after co like 97% of churches got online after the world of churches got online after the world of churches got online after the world shut down in 2020. So what was shut down in 2020. So what was shut down in 2020. So what was theoretical for a lot of churches is now theoretical for a lot of churches is now theoretical for a lot of churches is now reality and they've got some kind of reality and they've got some kind of reality and they've got some kind of internet presence. And I think we need internet presence. And I think we need internet presence. And I think we need to make Sundays non-downloadable.

to make Sundays non-downloadable. to make Sundays non-downloadable. And that that can happen in two And that that can happen in two And that that can happen in two different ways. First of all, small different ways. First of all, small different ways. First of all, small churches big churches. Um, in a small churches big churches. Um, in a small churches big churches. Um, in a small church, I think the experience on Sunday church, I think the experience on Sunday church, I think the experience on Sunday morning can feel like going to a movie morning can feel like going to a movie morning can feel like going to a movie theater and not a particularly crowded theater and not a particularly crowded theater and not a particularly crowded movie theater. There's [snorts] just 40 movie theater. There's [snorts] just 40 movie theater. There's [snorts] just 40 people, 50 people, and we're all there people, 50 people, and we're all there people, 50 people, and we're all there to watch an event to watch an event to watch an event >> and maybe say hello to each other after >> and maybe say hello to each other after >> and maybe say hello to each other after and go home. But there's not really and go home. But there's not really and go home. But there's not really community. And I've led small churches. community. And I've led small churches. community. And I've led small churches. The churches that became Kexus started The churches that became Kexus started The churches that became Kexus started with six people. It was three with six people. It was three with six people. It was three Presbyterian churches, 6, 14, and 23 Presbyterian churches, 6, 14, and 23 Presbyterian churches, 6, 14, and 23 average attendance. And I remember when average attendance. And I remember when average attendance. And I remember when we grew to 40, a woman named Hilda we grew to 40, a woman named Hilda we grew to 40, a woman named Hilda pulled me aside and she goes, "I don't pulled me aside and she goes, "I don't pulled me aside and she goes, "I don't want our church to grow anymore." I'm want our church to grow anymore." I'm want our church to grow anymore." I'm like, "Why not?" "Cuz I won't know like, "Why not?" "Cuz I won't know like, "Why not?" "Cuz I won't know anybody." And I knew her and the anybody." And I knew her and the anybody." And I knew her and the congregation fairly well. So I I went I congregation fairly well. So I I went I congregation fairly well. So I I went I just kind of looked and I pointed just kind of looked and I pointed just kind of looked and I pointed someone at the back. I said, "Do you someone at the back. I said, "Do you someone at the back. I said, "Do you know who that is?" "No." "Oh, that's know who that is?" "No." "Oh, that's know who that is?" "No." "Oh, that's Ken. He's been attending here for 10 Ken. He's been attending here for 10 Ken. He's been attending here for 10 years." She didn't know the 15 people years." She didn't know the 15 people years." She didn't know the 15 people that were there originally, that were there originally, that were there originally, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Cuz she had her little tribe. So we kind >> Cuz she had her little tribe. So we kind >> Cuz she had her little tribe. So we kind of we we we kind of function like a a of we we we kind of function like a a of we we we kind of function like a a set of randomly assembled individuals on set of randomly assembled individuals on set of randomly assembled individuals on Sunday morning. Now you go to a large Sunday morning. Now you go to a large Sunday morning. Now you go to a large church or a mega church, it feels like church or a mega church, it feels like church or a mega church, it feels like an NFL game.

an NFL game. an NFL game. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> 10,000 people, 20,000. >> 10,000 people, 20,000. >> 10,000 people, 20,000. >> This is this is alien to us in the UK in >> This is this is alien to us in the UK in >> This is this is alien to us in the UK in most places to be clear. But like to most places to be clear. But like to most places to be clear. But like to some of these places, some of these places, some of these places, >> what does that what does that sanctuary >> what does that what does that sanctuary >> what does that what does that sanctuary sit? sit? sit? >> A thousand. >> A thousand. >> A thousand. >> Uh yeah, on a good on a good day if you >> Uh yeah, on a good on a good day if you >> Uh yeah, on a good on a good day if you add up the congregations. But it's a lot add up the congregations. But it's a lot add up the congregations. But it's a lot of people, right? Way more than I could of people, right? Way more than I could of people, right? Way more than I could name. You don't know who's in front of name. You don't know who's in front of name. You don't know who's in front of you, behind you, beside you. You just you, behind you, beside you. You just you, behind you, beside you. You just know the people you came with and a know the people you came with and a know the people you came with and a couple of other people. couple of other people. couple of other people. >> And if you're in a growing church, and >> And if you're in a growing church, and >> And if you're in a growing church, and there's new data that I'm I'm still there's new data that I'm I'm still there's new data that I'm I'm still processing from Warren Bird. I mean, processing from Warren Bird. I mean, processing from Warren Bird. I mean, growing churches are large churches, and growing churches are large churches, and growing churches are large churches, and even though they're a small percentage even though they're a small percentage even though they're a small percentage of total churches, they represent of total churches, they represent of total churches, they represent something like 40% of all church something like 40% of all church something like 40% of all church attendance now. But what do we do? Cuz attendance now. But what do we do? Cuz attendance now. But what do we do? Cuz I've been in that place where you're I've been in that place where you're I've been in that place where you're just out of space. Seat turns. Okay, we just out of space. Seat turns. Okay, we just out of space. Seat turns. Okay, we got to add another service. So, we got got to add another service. So, we got got to add another service. So, we got to get all of you out to get all of you out to get all of you out >> so that we can fill up the parking lot, >> so that we can fill up the parking lot, >> so that we can fill up the parking lot, fill up the kids men, and then you got fill up the kids men, and then you got fill up the kids men, and then you got to leave so the next service can happen. to leave so the next service can happen. to leave so the next service can happen. >> And it's easy to feel like a number. >> And it's easy to feel like a number. >> And it's easy to feel like a number. >> Churches should really teach like all of >> Churches should really teach like all of >> Churches should really teach like all of these major sports facilities, by the these major sports facilities, by the these major sports facilities, by the way, about parking. That's the thing way, about parking. That's the thing way, about parking. That's the thing I've learned of traveling around North I've learned of traveling around North I've learned of traveling around North America. [laughter] America. [laughter] America. [laughter] >> Absolutely. Churches have parking >> Absolutely. Churches have parking >> Absolutely. Churches have parking nailed, don't they? The good ones. The nailed, don't they? The good ones. The nailed, don't they? The good ones. The big ones.

big ones. big ones. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I was at um Christ Church of the >> So, I was at um Christ Church of the >> So, I was at um Christ Church of the Valley, which just literally this week Valley, which just literally this week Valley, which just literally this week announced two more locations. So, I announced two more locations. So, I announced two more locations. So, I don't know what that's going to bring it don't know what that's going to bring it don't know what that's going to bring it to, but their attendance was 58,000, I to, but their attendance was 58,000, I to, but their attendance was 58,000, I think, think, think, >> over the last year. >> over the last year. >> over the last year. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Over 17 locations. And I was at Ashley >> Over 17 locations. And I was at Ashley >> Over 17 locations. And I was at Ashley Wilged and his wife um Jamie and Tony Wilged and his wife um Jamie and Tony Wilged and his wife um Jamie and Tony and I were going to have dinner with and I were going to have dinner with and I were going to have dinner with them. And I assumed that we were going them. And I assumed that we were going them. And I assumed that we were going to go to a steakhouse and we didn't. We to go to a steakhouse and we didn't. We to go to a steakhouse and we didn't. We actually sat on campus and they serve actually sat on campus and they serve actually sat on campus and they serve food after their services. And it's food after their services. And it's food after their services. And it's cheap. Like I think of it as the cheap. Like I think of it as the cheap. Like I think of it as the equivalent of the $150 Costco hot dog, equivalent of the $150 Costco hot dog, equivalent of the $150 Costco hot dog, which I'm sure you've uh experience. which I'm sure you've uh experience. which I'm sure you've uh experience. It's an elite experience paid attention It's an elite experience paid attention It's an elite experience paid attention in 40 years and it's a hot dog, but in 40 years and it's a hot dog, but in 40 years and it's a hot dog, but people love the $150 Costco hot dog. I'm people love the $150 Costco hot dog. I'm people love the $150 Costco hot dog. I'm pretty sure you could feed your family pretty sure you could feed your family pretty sure you could feed your family of four for 20 bucks at CCV of four for 20 bucks at CCV of four for 20 bucks at CCV >> after service. And I asked Ashley, I >> after service. And I asked Ashley, I >> after service. And I asked Ashley, I said, "What's the purpose?" And he said, said, "What's the purpose?" And he said, said, "What's the purpose?" And he said, "We just got to make this more human. We "We just got to make this more human. We "We just got to make this more human. We got to break it down because there's got to break it down because there's got to break it down because there's 2500 people in a service and then 2500 people in a service and then 2500 people in a service and then there's another service." And I mean, there's another service." And I mean, there's another service." And I mean, parking takes 10 minutes even though parking takes 10 minutes even though parking takes 10 minutes even though they do it well. And so they have uh a they do it well. And so they have uh a they do it well. And so they have uh a soccer field and they've got cornhole soccer field and they've got cornhole soccer field and they've got cornhole and they just want people to mingle and and they just want people to mingle and and they just want people to mingle and it's a step into community. Um so I it's a step into community. Um so I it's a step into community. Um so I think you've you've got to think about think you've you've got to think about think you've you've got to think about yeah it's great to have crowds but how yeah it's great to have crowds but how yeah it's great to have crowds but how do you turn this into community? How do do you turn this into community? How do do you turn this into community? How do we make sure everybody's in a group? How we make sure everybody's in a group? How we make sure everybody's in a group? How do we make sure everyone has an do we make sure everyone has an do we make sure everyone has an opportunity to serve? How do we have a opportunity to serve? How do we have a opportunity to serve? How do we have a healthy culture in our serving team so healthy culture in our serving team so healthy culture in our serving team so you're not just doing a job but you're you're not just doing a job but you're you're not just doing a job but you're part of a community? And I think that

part of a community? And I think that part of a community? And I think that can make a big difference if you want to can make a big difference if you want to can make a big difference if you want to scale it down. Cuz I was talking to scale it down. Cuz I was talking to scale it down. Cuz I was talking to another large church pastor. He goes, another large church pastor. He goes, another large church pastor. He goes, "Yeah, well they have great weather in "Yeah, well they have great weather in "Yeah, well they have great weather in Arizona and you know it rains here and Arizona and you know it rains here and Arizona and you know it rains here and it gets too hot and too cold and too it gets too hot and too cold and too it gets too hot and too cold and too this and two that." So uh you know Mark this and two that." So uh you know Mark this and two that." So uh you know Mark Sers I was at Red Church in Melbourne, Sers I was at Red Church in Melbourne, Sers I was at Red Church in Melbourne, Australia. Now that was a couple hundred Australia. Now that was a couple hundred Australia. Now that was a couple hundred people at worship and they have a big people at worship and they have a big people at worship and they have a big foyer at the back foyer at the back and foyer at the back foyer at the back and foyer at the back foyer at the back and I think Australia is the c coffee I think Australia is the c coffee I think Australia is the c coffee capital of the world. So they had some capital of the world. So they had some capital of the world. So they had some baristas there and they were making baristas there and they were making baristas there and they were making people flat whites and long blacks and people flat whites and long blacks and people flat whites and long blacks and cappuccinos and you know matchas and cappuccinos and you know matchas and cappuccinos and you know matchas and everybody just hung around and hung out. everybody just hung around and hung out. everybody just hung around and hung out. So whether it's a $4 cup of coffee or at So whether it's a $4 cup of coffee or at So whether it's a $4 cup of coffee or at cost like CCV doesn't make any money off cost like CCV doesn't make any money off cost like CCV doesn't make any money off of the food they don't lose money they of the food they don't lose money they of the food they don't lose money they don't make money it's just food at cost. don't make money it's just food at cost. don't make money it's just food at cost. So most people can afford $20 to feed So most people can afford $20 to feed So most people can afford $20 to feed their family on a Saturday night. So, their family on a Saturday night. So, their family on a Saturday night. So, >> and so I suppose with all of that being >> and so I suppose with all of that being >> and so I suppose with all of that being said is like that feels the right thing said is like that feels the right thing said is like that feels the right thing to me like just intrinsically that feels to me like just intrinsically that feels to me like just intrinsically that feels like that's what we want, right? We want like that's what we want, right? We want like that's what we want, right? We want people breaking bread together. We want people breaking bread together. We want people breaking bread together. We want to follow after the model of the to follow after the model of the to follow after the model of the disciples. Does that mean then the disciples. Does that mean then the disciples. Does that mean then the opposite end of the spectrum is okay, opposite end of the spectrum is okay, opposite end of the spectrum is okay, kill off your podcast, shut down the kill off your podcast, shut down the kill off your podcast, shut down the studio and like turn off the YouTube studio and like turn off the YouTube studio and like turn off the YouTube stream. Like can we have both? That's a stream. Like can we have both? That's a stream. Like can we have both? That's a great question and that's what a lot of great question and that's what a lot of great question and that's what a lot of people did when everyone was trying to people did when everyone was trying to people did when everyone was trying to get people back to church after churches get people back to church after churches get people back to church after churches reopened. A lot of people are like, I'm reopened. A lot of people are like, I'm reopened. A lot of people are like, I'm going to cut the cord and there's no going to cut the cord and there's no going to cut the cord and there's no live stream and there's no podcast and live stream and there's no podcast and live stream and there's no podcast and there's no YouTube. I'm not going to there's no YouTube. I'm not going to there's no YouTube. I'm not going to criticize you, but I would just say, criticize you, but I would just say, criticize you, but I would just say, well, it's a pretty good discovery tool.

well, it's a pretty good discovery tool. well, it's a pretty good discovery tool. I think the church today, because online I think the church today, because online I think the church today, because online church has been with us 20 years, if you church has been with us 20 years, if you church has been with us 20 years, if you start with Life Church and the last 5 to start with Life Church and the last 5 to start with Life Church and the last 5 to 10 years for most of the rest of us, I 10 years for most of the rest of us, I 10 years for most of the rest of us, I think people also worried about it being think people also worried about it being think people also worried about it being a backdoor. Well, if if we if we have it a backdoor. Well, if if we if we have it a backdoor. Well, if if we if we have it online, then people aren't going to online, then people aren't going to online, then people aren't going to come. I think that's been disproven. So, come. I think that's been disproven. So, come. I think that's been disproven. So, what is your um online presence? It's an what is your um online presence? It's an what is your um online presence? It's an excellent front door and it's an excellent front door and it's an excellent front door and it's an excellent side door. And what I mean by excellent side door. And what I mean by excellent side door. And what I mean by side door is there was a time when if side door is there was a time when if side door is there was a time when if you missed a service, you just missed a you missed a service, you just missed a you missed a service, you just missed a service. And now I like I I've missed service. And now I like I I've missed service. And now I like I I've missed three Sundays in a row. I can catch up three Sundays in a row. I can catch up three Sundays in a row. I can catch up online cuz I've been on the road. I've online cuz I've been on the road. I've online cuz I've been on the road. I've been traveling. And so, you know, I been traveling. And so, you know, I been traveling. And so, you know, I think it's a great way of keeping your think it's a great way of keeping your think it's a great way of keeping your people engaged, a great way of welcoming people engaged, a great way of welcoming people engaged, a great way of welcoming new people. But the other thing I would new people. But the other thing I would new people. But the other thing I would say because I I really really struggle say because I I really really struggle say because I I really really struggle with this is okay so what is the with this is okay so what is the with this is okay so what is the difference between like watching online difference between like watching online difference between like watching online and being in the room particularly if and being in the room particularly if and being in the room particularly if you're at a video location what's the you're at a video location what's the you're at a video location what's the difference and well a people's attention difference and well a people's attention difference and well a people's attention span cuz when I do church online span cuz when I do church online span cuz when I do church online sometimes I've been seen to be making sometimes I've been seen to be making sometimes I've been seen to be making coffee or eggs and threequarters coffee or eggs and threequarters coffee or eggs and threequarters listening and not really engaging. So listening and not really engaging. So listening and not really engaging. So that children interrupting you if you're that children interrupting you if you're that children interrupting you if you're me. Yeah. Yeah. Be quiet or you just me. Yeah. Yeah. Be quiet or you just me. Yeah. Yeah. Be quiet or you just left your phone on and it counts as a left your phone on and it counts as a left your phone on and it counts as a stream. So, you know, there's that.

stream. So, you know, there's that. stream. So, you know, there's that. >> But I also I started and I'm not a >> But I also I started and I'm not a >> But I also I started and I'm not a theologian, but I started thinking about theologian, but I started thinking about theologian, but I started thinking about what I know, what we know to be true what I know, what we know to be true what I know, what we know to be true about God. That God is both imminent and about God. That God is both imminent and about God. That God is both imminent and transcendent. And the imminent side of transcendent. And the imminent side of transcendent. And the imminent side of God is his very real, understandable God is his very real, understandable God is his very real, understandable word made flesh. Jesus with dust on his word made flesh. Jesus with dust on his word made flesh. Jesus with dust on his sandals, tired as he was after the sandals, tired as he was after the sandals, tired as he was after the journey, sat down, a baby in a manger, journey, sat down, a baby in a manger, journey, sat down, a baby in a manger, like real tangible like real tangible like real tangible here's God and I can see and to a large here's God and I can see and to a large here's God and I can see and to a large extent understand what's going on and at extent understand what's going on and at extent understand what's going on and at the same time God is also transcendent. the same time God is also transcendent. the same time God is also transcendent. So in the Old Testament, when the So in the Old Testament, when the So in the Old Testament, when the tabernacle and the temple are built, the tabernacle and the temple are built, the tabernacle and the temple are built, the priest can't finish the service because priest can't finish the service because priest can't finish the service because the shikina glory of God comes down and the shikina glory of God comes down and the shikina glory of God comes down and they have to stop. Or Moses face glows they have to stop. Or Moses face glows they have to stop. Or Moses face glows or Isaiah sees God and falls down as or Isaiah sees God and falls down as or Isaiah sees God and falls down as though he's dead and says, "I wish I was though he's dead and says, "I wish I was though he's dead and says, "I wish I was dead." Or Peter sees Jesus start glowing dead." Or Peter sees Jesus start glowing dead." Or Peter sees Jesus start glowing and during the transfiguration, it's and during the transfiguration, it's and during the transfiguration, it's like, "I don't even know what to do with like, "I don't even know what to do with like, "I don't even know what to do with this." Or Paul gets knocked off his this." Or Paul gets knocked off his this." Or Paul gets knocked off his horse. So God is both. And if you think horse. So God is both. And if you think horse. So God is both. And if you think about the church, if you're non-denom about the church, if you're non-denom about the church, if you're non-denom and low church, like is my background, and low church, like is my background, and low church, like is my background, you focus on the imminent five steps to you focus on the imminent five steps to you focus on the imminent five steps to a closer relationship with God.

a closer relationship with God. a closer relationship with God. >> If you're high church, Roman Catholic, >> If you're high church, Roman Catholic, >> If you're high church, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Episcopalian, charismatic, you Anglican, Episcopalian, charismatic, you Anglican, Episcopalian, charismatic, you focus on the transcendent, the oo, I focus on the transcendent, the oo, I focus on the transcendent, the oo, I don't know what that was, but that was don't know what that was, but that was don't know what that was, but that was powerful. [laughter] Right. And I think powerful. [laughter] Right. And I think powerful. [laughter] Right. And I think where Paul would lead us is he says it's where Paul would lead us is he says it's where Paul would lead us is he says it's both. both. both. >> Yeah. that and and I think the online is >> Yeah. that and and I think the online is >> Yeah. that and and I think the online is really amazing for imminent but it's really amazing for imminent but it's really amazing for imminent but it's sort of the difference between being at sort of the difference between being at sort of the difference between being at a concert like think about your favorite a concert like think about your favorite a concert like think about your favorite band favorite artist favorite group or band favorite artist favorite group or band favorite artist favorite group or listening to the live album listening to the live album listening to the live album world of difference world of difference world of difference >> very different >> very different >> very different >> world of difference and online should be >> world of difference and online should be >> world of difference and online should be like listening to the live album in like listening to the live album in like listening to the live album in person should be the experience and what person should be the experience and what person should be the experience and what does that mean well for those of us who does that mean well for those of us who does that mean well for those of us who are lower church are lower church are lower church I think we have to be more open to the, I think we have to be more open to the, I think we have to be more open to the, you know, it's a trinity, not a duopoly. you know, it's a trinity, not a duopoly. you know, it's a trinity, not a duopoly. There is a Holy Spirit. What might the There is a Holy Spirit. What might the There is a Holy Spirit. What might the Holy Spirit do? Um, I've left more space Holy Spirit do? Um, I've left more space Holy Spirit do? Um, I've left more space when I've led worship. Um, if you look when I've led worship. Um, if you look when I've led worship. Um, if you look at what's happening at American college at what's happening at American college at what's happening at American college campuses right now, there is so much campuses right now, there is so much campuses right now, there is so much confession happening, confession happening, confession happening, >> so much prayer, >> so much prayer, >> so much prayer, >> all of that happening. And >> all of that happening. And >> all of that happening. And >> I think it's an opportunity for us to >> I think it's an opportunity for us to >> I think it's an opportunity for us to really say, okay, I can't manipulate it.

really say, okay, I can't manipulate it. really say, okay, I can't manipulate it. And for those who are on the charismatic And for those who are on the charismatic And for those who are on the charismatic side, you should have some imminence, side, you should have some imminence, side, you should have some imminence, too, so that people know what happened too, so that people know what happened too, so that people know what happened and so that people can understand what's and so that people can understand what's and so that people can understand what's going on. Read 1 Corinthians 14. It going on. Read 1 Corinthians 14. It going on. Read 1 Corinthians 14. It can't all be, can't all be, can't all be, >> I don't know what happened, but it was >> I don't know what happened, but it was >> I don't know what happened, but it was amazing. amazing. amazing. >> Yeah. Not just the mystical. Yeah. But I >> Yeah. Not just the mystical. Yeah. But I >> Yeah. Not just the mystical. Yeah. But I think for a lot of us, particularly for think for a lot of us, particularly for think for a lot of us, particularly for growing churches, I think we're a little growing churches, I think we're a little growing churches, I think we're a little more open to we need to be a little more more open to we need to be a little more more open to we need to be a little more open to the move of the Holy Spirit. And open to the move of the Holy Spirit. And open to the move of the Holy Spirit. And what that means to me as I lead services what that means to me as I lead services what that means to me as I lead services is I want to create more space like at is I want to create more space like at is I want to create more space like at college campuses uh when there's a college campuses uh when there's a college campuses uh when there's a crusade going on through the unite crusade going on through the unite crusade going on through the unite movement. movement. movement. Uh they leave time for people to pray. Uh they leave time for people to pray. Uh they leave time for people to pray. They leave time for people to confess They leave time for people to confess They leave time for people to confess their sins, for people to respond. And their sins, for people to respond. And their sins, for people to respond. And the terrifying thing if you're wired the terrifying thing if you're wired the terrifying thing if you're wired like I am is you make that space like I am is you make that space like I am is you make that space available and maybe nothing happens, available and maybe nothing happens, available and maybe nothing happens, >> right? Yeah. >> right? Yeah. >> right? Yeah. >> That's okay. >> That's okay. >> That's okay. >> That's okay. Actually, you know, >> That's okay. Actually, you know, >> That's okay. Actually, you know, speaking of of of London, HTB does a speaking of of of London, HTB does a speaking of of of London, HTB does a great job of that.

great job of that. great job of that. >> I mean, it's it's very come Holy Spirit, >> I mean, it's it's very come Holy Spirit, >> I mean, it's it's very come Holy Spirit, we'll just see if anything happens. And we'll just see if anything happens. And we'll just see if anything happens. And usually it does. And if it doesn't, usually it does. And if it doesn't, usually it does. And if it doesn't, that's okay. And if it's two salvations that's okay. And if it's two salvations that's okay. And if it's two salvations or 200 salvations, that's really up to or 200 salvations, that's really up to or 200 salvations, that's really up to God. But I think what people are longing God. But I think what people are longing God. But I think what people are longing for deep down, whether they know it or for deep down, whether they know it or for deep down, whether they know it or not, is the real. They want to know, is not, is the real. They want to know, is not, is the real. They want to know, is God real? God real? God real? >> And we don't want to manipulate that. >> And we don't want to manipulate that. >> And we don't want to manipulate that. But we can evoke that. And so I am But we can evoke that. And so I am But we can evoke that. And so I am making more space when I lead worship, making more space when I lead worship, making more space when I lead worship, not musically but just am in charge of not musically but just am in charge of not musically but just am in charge of the service for people to respond, for the service for people to respond, for the service for people to respond, for people to pray, for people to reflect people to pray, for people to reflect people to pray, for people to reflect and and a little more space for the and and a little more space for the and and a little more space for the spirit to move. So even as I'm teaching, spirit to move. So even as I'm teaching, spirit to move. So even as I'm teaching, if I sense a shift, if I sense something if I sense a shift, if I sense something if I sense a shift, if I sense something sense something different, sense something different, sense something different, then then then I I make space for it rather than, oh, I I I make space for it rather than, oh, I I I make space for it rather than, oh, I got to hit my time marker and we have to got to hit my time marker and we have to got to hit my time marker and we have to get out of here. get out of here. get out of here. >> Yeah. So, I don't know. Does that make >> Yeah. So, I don't know. Does that make >> Yeah. So, I don't know. Does that make sense? It was really hard to get sense? It was really hard to get sense? It was really hard to get language around that. language around that. language around that. >> It's so [clears throat] important that >> It's so [clears throat] important that >> It's so [clears throat] important that we we kind of like think about when we we kind of like think about when we we kind of like think about when we're bringing any of these tools in we're bringing any of these tools in we're bringing any of these tools in that like how they affect the balance of that like how they affect the balance of that like how they affect the balance of this, right? How they affect the balance this, right? How they affect the balance this, right? How they affect the balance between the planned and the spontaneous between the planned and the spontaneous between the planned and the spontaneous and how they affect the plan between and how they affect the plan between and how they affect the plan between that kind of transcendence and that that that kind of transcendence and that that that kind of transcendence and that that imminency that you're talking about.

imminency that you're talking about. imminency that you're talking about. >> The thing is when when the when the >> The thing is when when the when the >> The thing is when when the when the transcendent happens, most of us want to transcendent happens, most of us want to transcendent happens, most of us want to bottle it and reproduce it on Thursday bottle it and reproduce it on Thursday bottle it and reproduce it on Thursday night. And you can't do that. You can't night. And you can't do that. You can't night. And you can't do that. You can't do that. That's manipulation. But do that. That's manipulation. But do that. That's manipulation. But feed it back into the prompt. feed it back into the prompt. feed it back into the prompt. >> Exactly. [laughter] We have to be open >> Exactly. [laughter] We have to be open >> Exactly. [laughter] We have to be open to it. We have to be open to it. So I to it. We have to be open to it. So I to it. We have to be open to it. So I think, you know, when you think about think, you know, when you think about think, you know, when you think about and sort of my argument is if if you and sort of my argument is if if you and sort of my argument is if if you make Sunday non-downloadable, all you're make Sunday non-downloadable, all you're make Sunday non-downloadable, all you're going to get is a bunch of downloads. So going to get is a bunch of downloads. So going to get is a bunch of downloads. So I think there has to be something not we I think there has to be something not we I think there has to be something not we set the table, but we can't make anybody set the table, but we can't make anybody set the table, but we can't make anybody eat, but there has to be some intangible eat, but there has to be some intangible eat, but there has to be some intangible quality of the Holy Spirit's presence of quality of the Holy Spirit's presence of quality of the Holy Spirit's presence of something meaningful and also of something meaningful and also of something meaningful and also of community and fellowship. I don't get community and fellowship. I don't get community and fellowship. I don't get the$150 Costco hot dog or the latte or the$150 Costco hot dog or the latte or the$150 Costco hot dog or the latte or meeting new people or bringing someone meeting new people or bringing someone meeting new people or bringing someone to church. That's the other thing. to church. That's the other thing. to church. That's the other thing. Actually, I should have put this in the Actually, I should have put this in the Actually, I should have put this in the book. book. book. >> Invite culture dies if you're doing >> Invite culture dies if you're doing >> Invite culture dies if you're doing church online. Like, if that's all church online. Like, if that's all church online. Like, if that's all you're doing, you're not inviting anyone you're doing, you're not inviting anyone you're doing, you're not inviting anyone into your kitchen on Sunday morning. into your kitchen on Sunday morning. into your kitchen on Sunday morning. You're not like, you got to be inviting You're not like, you got to be inviting You're not like, you got to be inviting other human beings to church. other human beings to church. other human beings to church. >> Yeah. Getting them in. So, I I want to >> Yeah. Getting them in. So, I I want to >> Yeah. Getting them in. So, I I want to pull you into this now because we we've pull you into this now because we we've pull you into this now because we we've spoken a lot about like AI and the spoken a lot about like AI and the spoken a lot about like AI and the effect it's having in society. We've effect it's having in society. We've effect it's having in society. We've spoken about the kind of impact it's spoken about the kind of impact it's spoken about the kind of impact it's having in the church sphere. Let's come having in the church sphere. Let's come having in the church sphere. Let's come down to kind of the individual person down to kind of the individual person down to kind of the individual person listening to this, particularly for the listening to this, particularly for the listening to this, particularly for the church leader or you know kind of leader church leader or you know kind of leader church leader or you know kind of leader who's working in ministry who's who's who's working in ministry who's who's who's working in ministry who's who's listening to us right now. One of the listening to us right now. One of the listening to us right now. One of the things you argue for in the book is things you argue for in the book is things you argue for in the book is about like that because AI is one of about like that because AI is one of about like that because AI is one of those things that impacts the way we those things that impacts the way we those things that impacts the way we think. Yeah. People compare it to, oh, think. Yeah. People compare it to, oh, think. Yeah. People compare it to, oh, it's just the typewriter. Well, the it's just the typewriter. Well, the it's just the typewriter. Well, the typewriter never had any opinions, typewriter never had any opinions, typewriter never had any opinions, right? AI seems to have some real right? AI seems to have some real right? AI seems to have some real opinions. Is that AI can challenge our

opinions. Is that AI can challenge our opinions. Is that AI can challenge our our own personal integrity and in the our own personal integrity and in the our own personal integrity and in the book you call for us to kind of forcify book you call for us to kind of forcify book you call for us to kind of forcify that. I just wonder if you would just that. I just wonder if you would just that. I just wonder if you would just kind of talk to us a little bit about kind of talk to us a little bit about kind of talk to us a little bit about like what your thoughts are really when like what your thoughts are really when like what your thoughts are really when it comes to the use of AI in the act of it comes to the use of AI in the act of it comes to the use of AI in the act of the work of the church. You know, the work of the church. You know, the work of the church. You know, particularly in things like sermon prep particularly in things like sermon prep particularly in things like sermon prep and content creation. Yeah, I have and content creation. Yeah, I have and content creation. Yeah, I have people kind of go backwards and forwards people kind of go backwards and forwards people kind of go backwards and forwards with me on this all the time. And um I with me on this all the time. And um I with me on this all the time. And um I often land on, yeah, use AI for your often land on, yeah, use AI for your often land on, yeah, use AI for your sermon prep, but just don't use it at sermon prep, but just don't use it at sermon prep, but just don't use it at like 10:37 when you're about to go on like 10:37 when you're about to go on like 10:37 when you're about to go on stage at 11:00 because there's something stage at 11:00 because there's something stage at 11:00 because there's something else that's gone wrong there. But like else that's gone wrong there. But like else that's gone wrong there. But like where do you where do you come down the where do you where do you come down the where do you where do you come down the line on that? You know in terms of using line on that? You know in terms of using line on that? You know in terms of using this for our own personal use in AI this for our own personal use in AI this for our own personal use in AI >> I am surprised at how analog I've become >> I am surprised at how analog I've become >> I am surprised at how analog I've become on that. Part of the debate when I on that. Part of the debate when I on that. Part of the debate when I started writing the book was I'm writing started writing the book was I'm writing started writing the book was I'm writing a book on AI. How should I use AI to a book on AI. How should I use AI to a book on AI. How should I use AI to write the book? And I made a decision write the book? And I made a decision write the book? And I made a decision that it was a helpful research assistant that it was a helpful research assistant that it was a helpful research assistant but please fact check fact check. You but please fact check fact check. You but please fact check fact check. You know I couldn't believe how many bad know I couldn't believe how many bad know I couldn't believe how many bad links I got and false information I got. links I got and false information I got. links I got and false information I got. So, I had to do research the So, I had to do research the So, I had to do research the oldfashioned way, but I decided that I oldfashioned way, but I decided that I oldfashioned way, but I decided that I was going to write the book from scratch was going to write the book from scratch was going to write the book from scratch on my own. Draft one, draft two, maybe on my own. Draft one, draft two, maybe on my own. Draft one, draft two, maybe even draft three. And then I really used even draft three. And then I really used even draft three. And then I really used AI and first of all, I have an amazing AI and first of all, I have an amazing AI and first of all, I have an amazing human editor. Um, he's great. Thank you human editor. Um, he's great. Thank you human editor. Um, he's great. Thank you so much, Eric. You did an unbelievable so much, Eric. You did an unbelievable so much, Eric. You did an unbelievable job in helping me clarify my thoughts.

job in helping me clarify my thoughts. job in helping me clarify my thoughts. But then I used AI to winnow it clearly. But then I used AI to winnow it clearly. But then I used AI to winnow it clearly. And when I was getting toward I think we And when I was getting toward I think we And when I was getting toward I think we did seven or eight drafts with this. did seven or eight drafts with this. did seven or eight drafts with this. When I was getting to the end, I'm like, When I was getting to the end, I'm like, When I was getting to the end, I'm like, "This seems a little convoluted. I "This seems a little convoluted. I "This seems a little convoluted. I didn't fix it. I don't think that Eric didn't fix it. I don't think that Eric didn't fix it. I don't think that Eric caught it, but I don't think it's clear caught it, but I don't think it's clear caught it, but I don't think it's clear enough." I'd sometimes feed that in. It enough." I'd sometimes feed that in. It enough." I'd sometimes feed that in. It would be like, "Oh, why don't you say it would be like, "Oh, why don't you say it would be like, "Oh, why don't you say it this way or break that into two this way or break that into two this way or break that into two sentences?" Super helpful. It was like sentences?" Super helpful. It was like sentences?" Super helpful. It was like another editor. Now, the Gospel another editor. Now, the Gospel another editor. Now, the Gospel Coalition just issued a big opinion Coalition just issued a big opinion Coalition just issued a big opinion where they said, "You shouldn't even use where they said, "You shouldn't even use where they said, "You shouldn't even use it like that." I largely agree with what it like that." I largely agree with what it like that." I largely agree with what they said, though. Um, and I think it's they said, though. Um, and I think it's they said, though. Um, and I think it's okay for a good editor, and I was okay for a good editor, and I was okay for a good editor, and I was involved with a lot of humans who read involved with a lot of humans who read involved with a lot of humans who read the read the acknowledgements. Tons of the read the acknowledgements. Tons of the read the acknowledgements. Tons of people have shaped this book for the people have shaped this book for the people have shaped this book for the better. Um, so that's how I think we better. Um, so that's how I think we better. Um, so that's how I think we should approach our our sermon. I've should approach our our sermon. I've should approach our our sermon. I've been really thinking about it. And I been really thinking about it. And I been really thinking about it. And I have, you know, AI prompt generated some have, you know, AI prompt generated some have, you know, AI prompt generated some sermons and they're largely garbage to sermons and they're largely garbage to sermons and they're largely garbage to be honest with you, at least in my view. be honest with you, at least in my view. be honest with you, at least in my view. Uh, and maybe you can get better at Uh, and maybe you can get better at Uh, and maybe you can get better at prompting or maybe you can feed it your prompting or maybe you can feed it your prompting or maybe you can feed it your whole life of content and away you go. whole life of content and away you go. whole life of content and away you go. But let's let's pretend you don't have But let's let's pretend you don't have But let's let's pretend you don't have um yeah let's pretend you don't have any um yeah let's pretend you don't have any um yeah let's pretend you don't have any content of library. You're a seminary content of library. You're a seminary content of library. You're a seminary grad. This is Sunday one.

grad. This is Sunday one. grad. This is Sunday one. >> How should you use AI? >> How should you use AI? >> How should you use AI? >> I think our job throughout our time as >> I think our job throughout our time as >> I think our job throughout our time as pastors is to wrestle with the text and pastors is to wrestle with the text and pastors is to wrestle with the text and wrestle with God. wrestle with God. wrestle with God. >> Stare at a blinking cursor. Stare at a >> Stare at a blinking cursor. Stare at a >> Stare at a blinking cursor. Stare at a blank page. Get frustrated. Try on blank page. Get frustrated. Try on blank page. Get frustrated. Try on Monday. Strike out. Come back. Look at Monday. Strike out. Come back. Look at Monday. Strike out. Come back. Look at the text again on Tuesday. Let it read the text again on Tuesday. Let it read the text again on Tuesday. Let it read you as much as you read it. And then let you as much as you read it. And then let you as much as you read it. And then let the Holy Spirit do the Holy Spirit's the Holy Spirit do the Holy Spirit's the Holy Spirit do the Holy Spirit's work, his work inside your life. And work, his work inside your life. And work, his work inside your life. And then you bring that wrestling to the then you bring that wrestling to the then you bring that wrestling to the church. So when I wrote multiple drafts church. So when I wrote multiple drafts church. So when I wrote multiple drafts of this book from scratch, I I don't of this book from scratch, I I don't of this book from scratch, I I don't know, it's 60,000 words, way longer than know, it's 60,000 words, way longer than know, it's 60,000 words, way longer than I thought it would be. I probably I thought it would be. I probably I thought it would be. I probably processed a hundred thousand words that processed a hundred thousand words that processed a hundred thousand words that could have been in the book could have been in the book could have been in the book >> and probably read a million words or >> and probably read a million words or >> and probably read a million words or interviews or conversations. So what interviews or conversations. So what interviews or conversations. So what happens with that? happens with that? happens with that? >> We could talk for 5 hours and I would >> We could talk for 5 hours and I would >> We could talk for 5 hours and I would not run out of not run out of not run out of >> opinions, things to say, viewpoints, >> opinions, things to say, viewpoints, >> opinions, things to say, viewpoints, right or wrong right or wrong right or wrong >> on AI. Contrast that with a case that >> on AI. Contrast that with a case that >> on AI. Contrast that with a case that came out this spring at Brown came out this spring at Brown came out this spring at Brown University, elite academic Ivy League University, elite academic Ivy League University, elite academic Ivy League school in America. There was a professor school in America. There was a professor school in America. There was a professor who led an economics course, you know, who led an economics course, you know, who led an economics course, you know, upper year, typically 30 students upper year, typically 30 students upper year, typically 30 students enroll. He announced because there had enroll. He announced because there had enroll. He announced because there had been some violence on campus that he been some violence on campus that he been some violence on campus that he would be offering a take-home exam just would be offering a take-home exam just would be offering a take-home exam just for student safety. Enrollment went from for student safety. Enrollment went from for student safety. Enrollment went from 30 to over 80. Kind of what?

30 to over 80. Kind of what? 30 to over 80. Kind of what? >> Yeah. Why? >> Yeah. Why? >> Yeah. Why? >> Okay. He didn't clue in right away. and >> Okay. He didn't clue in right away. and >> Okay. He didn't clue in right away. and then sends out the midterm, starts then sends out the midterm, starts then sends out the midterm, starts grading them, and it's weird. They all grading them, and it's weird. They all grading them, and it's weird. They all sound vaguely the same, but they did sound vaguely the same, but they did sound vaguely the same, but they did really well. The average midterm mark really well. The average midterm mark really well. The average midterm mark was 96%. was 96%. was 96%. >> It's crazy, right? >> It's crazy, right? >> It's crazy, right? >> So, he's like, "No, no, no. It's always >> So, he's like, "No, no, no. It's always >> So, he's like, "No, no, no. It's always between 65 and 80. This doesn't add up." between 65 and 80. This doesn't add up." between 65 and 80. This doesn't add up." And he goes, "You know what? These kids And he goes, "You know what? These kids And he goes, "You know what? These kids all cheated and used AI." So, he ran his all cheated and used AI." So, he ran his all cheated and used AI." So, he ran his exam through Chat GPT and produced exam through Chat GPT and produced exam through Chat GPT and produced almost the same 96 result that most of almost the same 96 result that most of almost the same 96 result that most of the other papers had. And he goes goes the other papers had. And he goes goes the other papers had. And he goes goes to the admin. And they're like, well, to the admin. And they're like, well, to the admin. And they're like, well, there's no way to prove it. And soon there's no way to prove it. And soon there's no way to prove it. And soon there will be, but there's no way to there will be, but there's no way to there will be, but there's no way to prove it. [snorts] So then what did he prove it. [snorts] So then what did he prove it. [snorts] So then what did he do? He said, final exam is in person, no do? He said, final exam is in person, no do? He said, final exam is in person, no laptops, no assistance. laptops, no assistance. laptops, no assistance. I think 18 students dropped the class I think 18 students dropped the class I think 18 students dropped the class immediately. [laughter] immediately. [laughter] immediately. [laughter] And the average mark, get this, James, And the average mark, get this, James, And the average mark, get this, James, the average mark went from 96 to 48 the average mark went from 96 to 48 the average mark went from 96 to 48 >> and nine students got a zero. >> and nine students got a zero. >> and nine students got a zero. So what does that mean? Well, you got So what does that mean? Well, you got So what does that mean? Well, you got 96% on the midterm. And what do you know 96% on the midterm. And what do you know 96% on the midterm. And what do you know about economics?

about economics? about economics? Nothing, Nothing, Nothing, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Nothing. >> Nothing. >> Nothing. >> So, if I had produced this book >> So, if I had produced this book >> So, if I had produced this book >> by AI, what do I actually know about AI? >> by AI, what do I actually know about AI? >> by AI, what do I actually know about AI? Very little. If I haven't read the Very little. If I haven't read the Very little. If I haven't read the Bible, but I get prompted through the Bible, but I get prompted through the Bible, but I get prompted through the Bible, what do I know about scripture? Bible, what do I know about scripture? Bible, what do I know about scripture? Nothing. What do I know about the needs Nothing. What do I know about the needs Nothing. What do I know about the needs of my congregation about like you have of my congregation about like you have of my congregation about like you have to develop your craft, you have to to develop your craft, you have to to develop your craft, you have to develop your voice. So, I'm going to develop your voice. So, I'm going to develop your voice. So, I'm going to suggest the first and second draft is suggest the first and second draft is suggest the first and second draft is you. you. you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then I would use a team. And I >> And then I would use a team. And I >> And then I would use a team. And I always did this because I preached, you always did this because I preached, you always did this because I preached, you know, for years pre-AI. What do you know, for years pre-AI. What do you know, for years pre-AI. What do you think? Not clear. Too boring. Needs think? Not clear. Too boring. Needs think? Not clear. Too boring. Needs another story. Oh, you used that story another story. Oh, you used that story another story. Oh, you used that story before. Okay. All right. All right. And before. Okay. All right. All right. And before. Okay. All right. All right. And then maybe use AI to back clean up or to then maybe use AI to back clean up or to then maybe use AI to back clean up or to do some research, but fact check. Fact do some research, but fact check. Fact do some research, but fact check. Fact check. I I'm kind of analog. I mean, check. I I'm kind of analog. I mean, check. I I'm kind of analog. I mean, where do you land on that? Now I'm where do you land on that? Now I'm where do you land on that? Now I'm writing I'm writing thought leadership writing I'm writing thought leadership writing I'm writing thought leadership pieces and I'm writing on behalf of God pieces and I'm writing on behalf of God pieces and I'm writing on behalf of God to his people. So I take that pretty to his people. So I take that pretty to his people. So I take that pretty seriously. But what do you think? Uh seriously. But what do you think? Uh seriously. But what do you think? Uh what's your take? what's your take? what's your take? >> I mean in my own work both in uh the >> I mean in my own work both in uh the >> I mean in my own work both in uh the content I write on social media and in content I write on social media and in content I write on social media and in my uh blog and then in the book itself my uh blog and then in the book itself my uh blog and then in the book itself that I wrote earlier this year. All of that I wrote earlier this year. All of that I wrote earlier this year. All of that has had some AI involved in it to a that has had some AI involved in it to a that has had some AI involved in it to a greater or lesser extent. And I think greater or lesser extent. And I think greater or lesser extent. And I think this is the thing I've been wrestling this is the thing I've been wrestling this is the thing I've been wrestling with a lot is like you we were just with a lot is like you we were just with a lot is like you we were just talking about the transcendent and kind talking about the transcendent and kind talking about the transcendent and kind of God being transcendent like can he of God being transcendent like can he of God being transcendent like can he work through these tools maybe like I I work through these tools maybe like I I work through these tools maybe like I I don't know where I land on that and I don't know where I land on that and I don't know where I land on that and I think that sometimes I have put ideas think that sometimes I have put ideas think that sometimes I have put ideas into uh Claude and like asked it to give into uh Claude and like asked it to give into uh Claude and like asked it to give me some thoughts or different ways of me some thoughts or different ways of me some thoughts or different ways of phrasing things and I've been inspired phrasing things and I've been inspired phrasing things and I've been inspired by the things it's come back with and

by the things it's come back with and by the things it's come back with and then I've then taken them on and then I've then taken them on and then I've then taken them on and advanced them myself. So I definitely advanced them myself. So I definitely advanced them myself. So I definitely think that these tools have that kind of think that these tools have that kind of think that these tools have that kind of thought partnership kind of relationship thought partnership kind of relationship thought partnership kind of relationship in in in >> I would say it's a good thought >> I would say it's a good thought >> I would say it's a good thought >> but there is something about the mus >> but there is something about the mus >> but there is something about the mus it's the muscle memory is the thing it's the muscle memory is the thing it's the muscle memory is the thing though that I think is I'm trying to though that I think is I'm trying to though that I think is I'm trying to kind of what you're getting at is like kind of what you're getting at is like kind of what you're getting at is like if we don't work that creative muscle if we don't work that creative muscle if we don't work that creative muscle maybe it's those students that never maybe it's those students that never maybe it's those students that never absorb that work that faculty of being absorb that work that faculty of being absorb that work that faculty of being able to process um deep thoughts can able to process um deep thoughts can able to process um deep thoughts can diminish and I think that's the thing diminish and I think that's the thing diminish and I think that's the thing that I'm often worried about is that you that I'm often worried about is that you that I'm often worried about is that you know I don't want to outsource that know I don't want to outsource that know I don't want to outsource that >> yeah I don't want to outsource the Holy >> yeah I don't want to outsource the Holy >> yeah I don't want to outsource the Holy Spirit and I don't think he can. The Spirit and I don't think he can. The Spirit and I don't think he can. The other thing I would say actually the guy other thing I would say actually the guy other thing I would say actually the guy who tried to call me a couple times when who tried to call me a couple times when who tried to call me a couple times when we've been talking is my buddy Mark we've been talking is my buddy Mark we've been talking is my buddy Mark Clark and Mark's been on the podcast Clark and Mark's been on the podcast Clark and Mark's been on the podcast before and some of listeners would know before and some of listeners would know before and some of listeners would know Mark. One of the things I love about Mark. One of the things I love about Mark. One of the things I love about Mark, Mark is 46 or so. He has been Mark, Mark is 46 or so. He has been Mark, Mark is 46 or so. He has been reading theology CS Lewis Tolken and I reading theology CS Lewis Tolken and I reading theology CS Lewis Tolken and I mean philosophers and theologians I've mean philosophers and theologians I've mean philosophers and theologians I've never heard of for 25 years. And to hear never heard of for 25 years. And to hear never heard of for 25 years. And to hear that guy preach, every year he gets that guy preach, every year he gets that guy preach, every year he gets better.

better. better. >> It's kind of like Warren Buffett. Every >> It's kind of like Warren Buffett. Every >> It's kind of like Warren Buffett. Every year you invest. year you invest. year you invest. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, your net worth just grows. >> You know, your net worth just grows. >> You know, your net worth just grows. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I say that to Mark. I say it to John >> I say that to Mark. I say it to John >> I say that to Mark. I say it to John Mark Comr. I say it to Rich Velus. Like Mark Comr. I say it to Rich Velus. Like Mark Comr. I say it to Rich Velus. Like I hope I see you at 70 because the I hope I see you at 70 because the I hope I see you at 70 because the compound interest of your learning and compound interest of your learning and compound interest of your learning and your wisdom is such a gift to the your wisdom is such a gift to the your wisdom is such a gift to the church. You see Dallas Willard or Eugene church. You see Dallas Willard or Eugene church. You see Dallas Willard or Eugene Peterson or even John Ortberg who have Peterson or even John Ortberg who have Peterson or even John Ortberg who have done this for decades and decades and done this for decades and decades and done this for decades and decades and decades and the wisdom that flows from decades and the wisdom that flows from decades and the wisdom that flows from them. I spent a couple days with John them. I spent a couple days with John them. I spent a couple days with John and Nancy Ortberg earlier this year. and Nancy Ortberg earlier this year. and Nancy Ortberg earlier this year. John and I were hiking for a few hours John and I were hiking for a few hours John and I were hiking for a few hours in the hills in California in the hills in California in the hills in California and I thought I knew him but my goodness and I thought I knew him but my goodness and I thought I knew him but my goodness the stuff that was coming out of him the stuff that was coming out of him the stuff that was coming out of him that he knew that I had no idea. Like I that he knew that I had no idea. Like I that he knew that I had no idea. Like I think you need to do that and I think think you need to do that and I think think you need to do that and I think you know use AI but I would even be a you know use AI but I would even be a you know use AI but I would even be a little lighter like use it to solve all little lighter like use it to solve all little lighter like use it to solve all your easy problems but do the heavy your easy problems but do the heavy your easy problems but do the heavy lifting yourself because that is is is lifting yourself because that is is is lifting yourself because that is is is how you are formed as a thinker how you are formed as a thinker how you are formed as a thinker >> and so but I'll give you another example >> and so but I'll give you another example >> and so but I'll give you another example too just to show you that sometimes I too just to show you that sometimes I too just to show you that sometimes I contradict myself. I was uh I'm doing an contradict myself. I was uh I'm doing an contradict myself. I was uh I'm doing an interment service for one of the interment service for one of the interment service for one of the founding elders of our church. She died founding elders of our church. She died founding elders of our church. She died at 95. One of the few who are left from at 95. One of the few who are left from at 95. One of the few who are left from when I started in 1995. So she was 95 when I started in 1995. So she was 95 when I started in 1995. So she was 95 when she died. And the family asked me when she died. And the family asked me when she died. And the family asked me to do the service. I was so happy to do to do the service. I was so happy to do to do the service. I was so happy to do it. So I wrote out the whole order, some it. So I wrote out the whole order, some it. So I wrote out the whole order, some scriptures I wanted to use. And then I scriptures I wanted to use. And then I scriptures I wanted to use. And then I ran it through Claude and I just said, ran it through Claude and I just said, ran it through Claude and I just said, "Here's how this woman was so special to "Here's how this woman was so special to "Here's how this woman was so special to me and to her family. You know, there's

me and to her family. You know, there's me and to her family. You know, there's been a few other deaths in the family. been a few other deaths in the family. been a few other deaths in the family. What scripture other scripture passages What scripture other scripture passages What scripture other scripture passages come to mind?" Now, I could have asked a come to mind?" Now, I could have asked a come to mind?" Now, I could have asked a friend, but it gave me the loaves and friend, but it gave me the loaves and friend, but it gave me the loaves and fishes. I have never preached on the fishes. I have never preached on the fishes. I have never preached on the loaves and fishes at a graveside loaves and fishes at a graveside loaves and fishes at a graveside service, service, service, but she was part of one of the original but she was part of one of the original but she was part of one of the original churches that was 23 people, which today churches that was 23 people, which today churches that was 23 people, which today is about 2,000 people. is about 2,000 people. is about 2,000 people. And I want to talk for a few minutes And I want to talk for a few minutes And I want to talk for a few minutes about Kora's faith multiplying and that about Kora's faith multiplying and that about Kora's faith multiplying and that God multiplied it over and over and over God multiplied it over and over and over God multiplied it over and over and over again because she believed when there again because she believed when there again because she believed when there were 23 and today live to see a couple were 23 and today live to see a couple were 23 and today live to see a couple thousand. thousand. thousand. And and then go into some of the other And and then go into some of the other And and then go into some of the other passages I use. So that's a way it made passages I use. So that's a way it made passages I use. So that's a way it made me think and I don't know that anybody me think and I don't know that anybody me think and I don't know that anybody on the creative team would have thought on the creative team would have thought on the creative team would have thought that but I always have to check it that but I always have to check it that but I always have to check it against it had a lot of other against it had a lot of other against it had a lot of other suggestions I didn't follow. suggestions I didn't follow. suggestions I didn't follow. >> That one I would have come up with on my >> That one I would have come up with on my >> That one I would have come up with on my own and it's that it's that that own and it's that it's that that own and it's that it's that that connection um that ability to kind of connection um that ability to kind of connection um that ability to kind of see the big picture because it has such see the big picture because it has such see the big picture because it has such a wide range of resources to rely upon a wide range of resources to rely upon a wide range of resources to rely upon that allows it to do that. And at the that allows it to do that. And at the that allows it to do that. And at the same time, maybe there's also something same time, maybe there's also something same time, maybe there's also something going on there between the technology, going on there between the technology, going on there between the technology, between your brain and the Holy Spirit between your brain and the Holy Spirit between your brain and the Holy Spirit working together to say, "Oh, that's the working together to say, "Oh, that's the working together to say, "Oh, that's the thing that I should focus in on."

thing that I should focus in on." thing that I should focus in on." >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's It's not like >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's It's not like >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's It's not like God says, "I can touch anything except God says, "I can touch anything except God says, "I can touch anything except AI." AI." AI." >> Obviously. Yeah. But but again back to >> Obviously. Yeah. But but again back to >> Obviously. Yeah. But but again back to unintended consequences I think when it unintended consequences I think when it unintended consequences I think when it comes to what I call brain rot, comes to what I call brain rot, comes to what I call brain rot, cognitive decline, um loss of agency, cognitive decline, um loss of agency, cognitive decline, um loss of agency, >> there's a certain sense there's so much >> there's a certain sense there's so much >> there's a certain sense there's so much AI slop online and it all sounds the AI slop online and it all sounds the AI slop online and it all sounds the same. It all looks the same. It all has same. It all looks the same. It all has same. It all looks the same. It all has the same memes and the memes will the same memes and the memes will the same memes and the memes will change. But is that really what we want change. But is that really what we want change. But is that really what we want to sound like? Or there's a big to sound like? Or there's a big to sound like? Or there's a big difference if you read Tolken or CS difference if you read Tolken or CS difference if you read Tolken or CS Lewis or Charles Dickens or do we want Lewis or Charles Dickens or do we want Lewis or Charles Dickens or do we want um more variety and do we want the um more variety and do we want the um more variety and do we want the thumbrint the pyama right of Ephesians thumbrint the pyama right of Ephesians thumbrint the pyama right of Ephesians expressed in human beings the image of expressed in human beings the image of expressed in human beings the image of God. I think you know it was Irenaeus God. I think you know it was Irenaeus God. I think you know it was Irenaeus who said the glory of God is man fully who said the glory of God is man fully who said the glory of God is man fully alive humanity fully alive and yeah I alive humanity fully alive and yeah I alive humanity fully alive and yeah I think you want to be fully alive and AI think you want to be fully alive and AI think you want to be fully alive and AI can help with that but it is not your can help with that but it is not your can help with that but it is not your life. Yeah, I've heard a few people um life. Yeah, I've heard a few people um life. Yeah, I've heard a few people um speak on this in recent months, but I'm speak on this in recent months, but I'm speak on this in recent months, but I'm just wondering if you've kind of come up just wondering if you've kind of come up just wondering if you've kind of come up with any kind of rules for life for AI with any kind of rules for life for AI with any kind of rules for life for AI for your own usage. You know, I know for your own usage. You know, I know for your own usage. You know, I know that the uh you mentioned John Mark Comr that the uh you mentioned John Mark Comr that the uh you mentioned John Mark Comr and you know, practicing the way his and you know, practicing the way his and you know, practicing the way his idea of like rules for life I think is idea of like rules for life I think is idea of like rules for life I think is an interesting one. Do you have any of an interesting one. Do you have any of an interesting one. Do you have any of those so far for your own usage of AI those so far for your own usage of AI those so far for your own usage of AI particularly as you've been wrestling particularly as you've been wrestling particularly as you've been wrestling with it for this book?

with it for this book? with it for this book? >> Not really, but it's an interesting >> Not really, but it's an interesting >> Not really, but it's an interesting concept. I mean, what surprises me is concept. I mean, what surprises me is concept. I mean, what surprises me is I'm using it less than I probably I'm using it less than I probably I'm using it less than I probably should. Uh, I was off for 5 weeks this should. Uh, I was off for 5 weeks this should. Uh, I was off for 5 weeks this past summer. I hardly touched it except past summer. I hardly touched it except past summer. I hardly touched it except to Google which phone to buy or you know to Google which phone to buy or you know to Google which phone to buy or you know that kind of thing like as a little that kind of thing like as a little that kind of thing like as a little research assistant. Uh, I am using it to research assistant. Uh, I am using it to research assistant. Uh, I am using it to help me help make me clear. Sometimes if help me help make me clear. Sometimes if help me help make me clear. Sometimes if I have long content like I have 60,000 I have long content like I have 60,000 I have long content like I have 60,000 words on AI in the future church if I'm words on AI in the future church if I'm words on AI in the future church if I'm producing a YouTube video on one idea in producing a YouTube video on one idea in producing a YouTube video on one idea in the book I will use AI feed it that and the book I will use AI feed it that and the book I will use AI feed it that and get it to prompt me an outline and then get it to prompt me an outline and then get it to prompt me an outline and then usually I end up rewriting it anyway. So usually I end up rewriting it anyway. So usually I end up rewriting it anyway. So I'm using it that way. Has it really I'm using it that way. Has it really I'm using it that way. Has it really cleaned up my workflow? I mean I have it cleaned up my workflow? I mean I have it cleaned up my workflow? I mean I have it in my email a little bit but I I really in my email a little bit but I I really in my email a little bit but I I really like the personal analog touch. So like the personal analog touch. So like the personal analog touch. So perhaps I will be an unemployed dinosaur perhaps I will be an unemployed dinosaur perhaps I will be an unemployed dinosaur in a few years. So I'm embracing it. in a few years. So I'm embracing it. in a few years. So I'm embracing it. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But like I I mean I I think I embody the >> But like I I mean I I think I embody the >> But like I I mean I I think I embody the thesis of the book. We have to be more thesis of the book. We have to be more thesis of the book. We have to be more human. In fact, I actually I actually think that will be I actually I actually think that will be a superpower down the road. When the a superpower down the road. When the a superpower down the road. When the culture zigs, I think it's important for culture zigs, I think it's important for culture zigs, I think it's important for at least some of us to zag. So this is at least some of us to zag. So this is at least some of us to zag. So this is very raw thinking. I've I've run it by very raw thinking. I've I've run it by very raw thinking. I've I've run it by my team, so I think I can share it my team, so I think I can share it my team, so I think I can share it publicly. But I took five weeks off this publicly. But I took five weeks off this publicly. But I took five weeks off this summer and I had um two very tumultuous summer and I had um two very tumultuous summer and I had um two very tumultuous years. I've talked about it on this years. I've talked about it on this years. I've talked about it on this podcast, 29 external stressors, you podcast, 29 external stressors, you podcast, 29 external stressors, you know, aging parents, moved to a know, aging parents, moved to a know, aging parents, moved to a retirement home, selling a couple of retirement home, selling a couple of retirement home, selling a couple of family properties to get them ready for

family properties to get them ready for family properties to get them ready for the next phase in life, etc., etc., and the next phase in life, etc., etc., and the next phase in life, etc., etc., and then an ice storm and I got sick last then an ice storm and I got sick last then an ice storm and I got sick last year. So, this was the first summer year. So, this was the first summer year. So, this was the first summer where really there was no crisis and I where really there was no crisis and I where really there was no crisis and I just had some time off. And I was just had some time off. And I was just had some time off. And I was surprised by two things because I let surprised by two things because I let surprised by two things because I let myself read whatever I want to read when myself read whatever I want to read when myself read whatever I want to read when I'm off. I was drawn to Dallas Willard, I'm off. I was drawn to Dallas Willard, I'm off. I was drawn to Dallas Willard, Henry Nen, um Eugene Peterson, Henry Nen, um Eugene Peterson, Henry Nen, um Eugene Peterson, Ron Rollheiser, Ron Rollheiser, Ron Rollheiser, stuff I don't usually read. I mean, I'm stuff I don't usually read. I mean, I'm stuff I don't usually read. I mean, I'm not John Mark Comr. I don't read The not John Mark Comr. I don't read The not John Mark Comr. I don't read The Desert Fathers and Mothers. I read Desert Fathers and Mothers. I read Desert Fathers and Mothers. I read leadership stuff. And I'm like, "Oh, leadership stuff. And I'm like, "Oh, leadership stuff. And I'm like, "Oh, this is really interesting." And then this is really interesting." And then this is really interesting." And then the second thing the second thing the second thing that that really surprised me is usually that that really surprised me is usually that that really surprised me is usually it takes a week or two to decelerate. it takes a week or two to decelerate. it takes a week or two to decelerate. And I thought I was going in rusted, but And I thought I was going in rusted, but And I thought I was going in rusted, but by week five, I was still finding lower by week five, I was still finding lower by week five, I was still finding lower gears, gears, gears, >> right? And so I think about my company. >> right? And so I think about my company. >> right? And so I think about my company. I think about the future. And we're I think about the future. And we're I think about the future. And we're using AI for marketing and we're using using AI for marketing and we're using using AI for marketing and we're using it. You know, my team's using it and it. You know, my team's using it and it. You know, my team's using it and we're engaging it. We've got an AI we're engaging it. We've got an AI we're engaging it. We've got an AI consultant who's going to be working consultant who's going to be working consultant who's going to be working with our company to make sure all of our with our company to make sure all of our with our company to make sure all of our systems are topnotch and we'll do that systems are topnotch and we'll do that systems are topnotch and we'll do that ethically, etc., etc. But next year, I ethically, etc., etc. But next year, I ethically, etc., etc. But next year, I think I'm going to take two months off.

think I'm going to take two months off. think I'm going to take two months off. And the reason I want to do that is I And the reason I want to do that is I And the reason I want to do that is I want to slow down as slow as I've ever want to slow down as slow as I've ever want to slow down as slow as I've ever slowed down in my life and see what's slowed down in my life and see what's slowed down in my life and see what's there. See where God is. And I was there. See where God is. And I was there. See where God is. And I was talking to my colleagues about this and talking to my colleagues about this and talking to my colleagues about this and a couple of friends. a couple of friends. a couple of friends. The culture is getting louder, faster, The culture is getting louder, faster, The culture is getting louder, faster, sloppier, more conflicted, more divided. sloppier, more conflicted, more divided. sloppier, more conflicted, more divided. And if I'm going to continue to write And if I'm going to continue to write And if I'm going to continue to write and contribute to the leadership space and contribute to the leadership space and contribute to the leadership space in the church, I think I want to go the in the church, I think I want to go the in the church, I think I want to go the opposite way. opposite way. opposite way. >> That's a good word. You're talking to >> That's a good word. You're talking to >> That's a good word. You're talking to the guy that you're talking to the guy the guy that you're talking to the guy the guy that you're talking to the guy that read uh you know, the ruthless that read uh you know, the ruthless that read uh you know, the ruthless elimination of hurry at 2x speed on elimination of hurry at 2x speed on elimination of hurry at 2x speed on Audible. So, it's not I think I need to Audible. So, it's not I think I need to Audible. So, it's not I think I need to listen to that myself. Well, and you listen to that myself. Well, and you listen to that myself. Well, and you know, John Mark, we mentioned him a know, John Mark, we mentioned him a know, John Mark, we mentioned him a couple times. We've spent a bit of time couple times. We've spent a bit of time couple times. We've spent a bit of time together over the last few years, and together over the last few years, and together over the last few years, and you know, he said, I think it was on the you know, he said, I think it was on the you know, he said, I think it was on the podcast, but he said he he's not moving podcast, but he said he he's not moving podcast, but he said he he's not moving left or right, he's moving into the left or right, he's moving into the left or right, he's moving into the past. And I think if you know, why why past. And I think if you know, why why past. And I think if you know, why why are we reading CS Lewis a century later?

are we reading CS Lewis a century later? are we reading CS Lewis a century later? Why are why are we reading Henry Nen um Why are why are we reading Henry Nen um Why are why are we reading Henry Nen um 30 years after his death? Why are we 30 years after his death? Why are we 30 years after his death? Why are we reading Dallas Willard, Eugene Peterson reading Dallas Willard, Eugene Peterson reading Dallas Willard, Eugene Peterson decade and a half after their death? decade and a half after their death? decade and a half after their death? Answer. Answer. Answer. Keller because they went into a deep Keller because they went into a deep Keller because they went into a deep well and actually had something to say well and actually had something to say well and actually had something to say and it wasn't a reaction piece. It and it wasn't a reaction piece. It and it wasn't a reaction piece. It wasn't a hey, you know, what do you wasn't a hey, you know, what do you wasn't a hey, you know, what do you think about this? It wasn't AI slop. It think about this? It wasn't AI slop. It think about this? It wasn't AI slop. It was it was something meaningful and I was it was something meaningful and I was it was something meaningful and I think that is going to be a rarer and think that is going to be a rarer and think that is going to be a rarer and rarer commodity rarer commodity rarer commodity and I feel like if you had asked me two and I feel like if you had asked me two and I feel like if you had asked me two years ago, would you be moving in this years ago, would you be moving in this years ago, would you be moving in this direction? I would be like what? No. But direction? I would be like what? No. But direction? I would be like what? No. But I'm really pulled by it and I think it's I'm really pulled by it and I think it's I'm really pulled by it and I think it's going to make me a better human. Uh I going to make me a better human. Uh I going to make me a better human. Uh I think it's going to make me a better think it's going to make me a better think it's going to make me a better follower of Jesus. And hopefully it will follower of Jesus. And hopefully it will follower of Jesus. And hopefully it will give me something to contribute because give me something to contribute because give me something to contribute because your methods contribute to either the your methods contribute to either the your methods contribute to either the madness. madness. madness. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or or to >> Or or to >> Or or to the helpfulness the helpfulness the helpfulness of what you can possibly give to the of what you can possibly give to the of what you can possibly give to the world. And I want to give something of world. And I want to give something of world. And I want to give something of value. And so that's where I'm really value. And so that's where I'm really value. And so that's where I'm really feeling now. Are we going to, you know, feeling now. Are we going to, you know, feeling now. Are we going to, you know, figure out AI marketing? Yeah. Yeah, figure out AI marketing? Yeah. Yeah, figure out AI marketing? Yeah. Yeah, we're going to figure all that stuff we're going to figure all that stuff we're going to figure all that stuff out. Um, I listen to AI podcast every out. Um, I listen to AI podcast every out. Um, I listen to AI podcast every week. I subscribe to 10 AI newsletters.

week. I subscribe to 10 AI newsletters. week. I subscribe to 10 AI newsletters. I I'm reading on this regularly. I am I I'm reading on this regularly. I am I I'm reading on this regularly. I am not a lite. not a lite. not a lite. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I think there I mean what's your >> But I think there I mean what's your >> But I think there I mean what's your thought about that? I thought about that? I thought about that? I >> I think I think you're absolutely right. >> I think I think you're absolutely right. >> I think I think you're absolutely right. I think it's about it's kind of like I think it's about it's kind of like I think it's about it's kind of like that idea of moving fast and slow at the that idea of moving fast and slow at the that idea of moving fast and slow at the same time, right? is that we yeah you we same time, right? is that we yeah you we same time, right? is that we yeah you we can speed up the execution if we slow can speed up the execution if we slow can speed up the execution if we slow down the thinking sometimes. I think down the thinking sometimes. I think down the thinking sometimes. I think that's helpful to create those kind of that's helpful to create those kind of that's helpful to create those kind of margins in life because yeah what AI is margins in life because yeah what AI is margins in life because yeah what AI is great at doing is moving at speed and great at doing is moving at speed and great at doing is moving at speed and scale but only if it's directed well and scale but only if it's directed well and scale but only if it's directed well and if we move at speed and scale too then if we move at speed and scale too then if we move at speed and scale too then no one's paying attention either. So I no one's paying attention either. So I no one's paying attention either. So I think we have to find those those think we have to find those those think we have to find those those rhythms and margin. I'm encouraged in rhythms and margin. I'm encouraged in rhythms and margin. I'm encouraged in hearing you kind of talk about it that hearing you kind of talk about it that hearing you kind of talk about it that way. It gives me some hope that you know way. It gives me some hope that you know way. It gives me some hope that you know we will as humans kind of find a balance we will as humans kind of find a balance we will as humans kind of find a balance uh in the way in which we live and work uh in the way in which we live and work uh in the way in which we live and work alongside this stuff because it is alongside this stuff because it is alongside this stuff because it is working alongside us. It doesn't have to working alongside us. It doesn't have to working alongside us. It doesn't have to replace us. I think we can find ways of replace us. I think we can find ways of replace us. I think we can find ways of working with it not against it. working with it not against it. working with it not against it. >> I think you know we we have suffered and >> I think you know we we have suffered and >> I think you know we we have suffered and I thought this before I knew I was going I thought this before I knew I was going I thought this before I knew I was going in ministry and was in law that in ministry and was in law that in ministry and was in law that Christianity Christianity Christianity um suffers from a dir of deep thinking um suffers from a dir of deep thinking um suffers from a dir of deep thinking even 20 30 years ago. You know, Mark even 20 30 years ago. You know, Mark even 20 30 years ago. You know, Mark Null famously said, "The scandal of the Null famously said, "The scandal of the Null famously said, "The scandal of the evangelical mind is that there's not evangelical mind is that there's not evangelical mind is that there's not much of an evangelical mind." And, much of an evangelical mind." And, much of an evangelical mind." And, you know, that's a little bit harsh, but you know, that's a little bit harsh, but you know, that's a little bit harsh, but there's a little bit of truth in that.

there's a little bit of truth in that. there's a little bit of truth in that. And if you think about what AI has done And if you think about what AI has done And if you think about what AI has done to politics, to public discourse, to politics, to public discourse, to politics, to public discourse, because the algorithm is driving all of because the algorithm is driving all of because the algorithm is driving all of your feeds right now, even though it's your feeds right now, even though it's your feeds right now, even though it's social media, is it's made it more social media, is it's made it more social media, is it's made it more divided, more polarized, more extreme. divided, more polarized, more extreme. divided, more polarized, more extreme. And that can be fun extreme where you're And that can be fun extreme where you're And that can be fun extreme where you're just watching, you know, dirt bike just watching, you know, dirt bike just watching, you know, dirt bike videos that are extreme or it could be videos that are extreme or it could be videos that are extreme or it could be political extremism or it could be but political extremism or it could be but political extremism or it could be but it's all hype and it's getting faster it's all hype and it's getting faster it's all hype and it's getting faster and it's getting louder and I'm like ooh and it's getting louder and I'm like ooh and it's getting louder and I'm like ooh ooh ooh it's time to withdraw to the ooh ooh it's time to withdraw to the ooh ooh it's time to withdraw to the desert you know like [laughter] desert you know like [laughter] desert you know like [laughter] >> there's a lot lot going on here and I >> there's a lot lot going on here and I >> there's a lot lot going on here and I think we need people to to think and I think we need people to to think and I think we need people to to think and I think it's a form of agency. think it's a form of agency. think it's a form of agency. >> Cal Newport talks a lot about agency >> Cal Newport talks a lot about agency >> Cal Newport talks a lot about agency like that's why he's not on social like that's why he's not on social like that's why he's not on social media. He's like, I want to retain how I media. He's like, I want to retain how I media. He's like, I want to retain how I think and what I talk about and to the think and what I talk about and to the think and what I talk about and to the extent that that's possible. And for a extent that that's possible. And for a extent that that's possible. And for a pastor to be an anchor, like think about pastor to be an anchor, like think about pastor to be an anchor, like think about what this is doing to your church if what this is doing to your church if what this is doing to your church if they are in fact adopting AI faster than they are in fact adopting AI faster than they are in fact adopting AI faster than the general population and they're the general population and they're the general population and they're dealing with all these issues. Mental dealing with all these issues. Mental dealing with all these issues. Mental health, job loss, brain rot, um you health, job loss, brain rot, um you health, job loss, brain rot, um you know, deep fakes, we haven't even know, deep fakes, we haven't even know, deep fakes, we haven't even touched on that. if they're dealing with touched on that. if they're dealing with touched on that. if they're dealing with AI death and resurrection, right? You AI death and resurrection, right? You AI death and resurrection, right? You can download apps right now that can download apps right now that can download apps right now that resurrect grandma if you've got three resurrect grandma if you've got three resurrect grandma if you've got three minutes of video of her and you can have minutes of video of her and you can have minutes of video of her and you can have conversations with grandma till the day conversations with grandma till the day conversations with grandma till the day you die. You need to be speaking into you die. You need to be speaking into you die. You need to be speaking into this. like we can we can outline your this. like we can we can outline your this. like we can we can outline your next sermon series for January of 2027 next sermon series for January of 2027 next sermon series for January of 2027 on the issues that you should be on the issues that you should be on the issues that you should be addressing from the pulpit, but you need

addressing from the pulpit, but you need addressing from the pulpit, but you need to be anchored in eternal truth and to be anchored in eternal truth and to be anchored in eternal truth and conversant with what's happening in the conversant with what's happening in the conversant with what's happening in the culture to be able to do that. And so I culture to be able to do that. And so I culture to be able to do that. And so I have great hopes that pastors will have great hopes that pastors will have great hopes that pastors will follow a similar path where they are follow a similar path where they are follow a similar path where they are deeply rooted in their faith, deeply deeply rooted in their faith, deeply deeply rooted in their faith, deeply rooted in thousands of years of rooted in thousands of years of rooted in thousands of years of Christian understanding of the world. Christian understanding of the world. Christian understanding of the world. And also, you know, it's kind of what And also, you know, it's kind of what And also, you know, it's kind of what Carl Bart said. You read, you you you do Carl Bart said. You read, you you you do Carl Bart said. You read, you you you do ministry with a Bible in one hand and a ministry with a Bible in one hand and a ministry with a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other. He said that 100 newspaper in the other. He said that 100 newspaper in the other. He said that 100 years ago. So, we need to do that. But years ago. So, we need to do that. But years ago. So, we need to do that. But your people are looking for direction. your people are looking for direction. your people are looking for direction. Yeah. You got the Financial Times and Yeah. You got the Financial Times and Yeah. You got the Financial Times and the limited time. the limited time. the limited time. >> Some of us are analog still. >> Some of us are analog still. >> Some of us are analog still. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Hey, I'm a big fan of analog books. >> Hey, I'm a big fan of analog books. >> Hey, I'm a big fan of analog books. >> Yeah. Yeah. I've gone back I I was a >> Yeah. Yeah. I've gone back I I was a >> Yeah. Yeah. I've gone back I I was a Kindle guy for a long time and I find Kindle guy for a long time and I find Kindle guy for a long time and I find myself back out buying broad sheet myself back out buying broad sheet myself back out buying broad sheet newspapers and around hardback books. newspapers and around hardback books. newspapers and around hardback books. And uh well I I think it's everything And uh well I I think it's everything And uh well I I think it's everything you just spoken about is that that we you just spoken about is that that we you just spoken about is that that we there's something that we're seeking for there's something that we're seeking for there's something that we're seeking for when everything is unlimited. Like you when everything is unlimited. Like you when everything is unlimited. Like you know I always joke with people it's like know I always joke with people it's like know I always joke with people it's like you can never complete Netflix you can never complete Netflix you can never complete Netflix [clears throat] right [laughter] [clears throat] right [laughter] [clears throat] right [laughter] that's the [gasps] problem. So sometimes that's the [gasps] problem. So sometimes that's the [gasps] problem. So sometimes just actually passing through what's just actually passing through what's just actually passing through what's important sometimes we need these important sometimes we need these important sometimes we need these filters of you know pass the editor filters of you know pass the editor filters of you know pass the editor >> right that's what a newspaper is that's >> right that's what a newspaper is that's >> right that's what a newspaper is that's what a book is.

what a book is. what a book is. >> A newspaper is of everything that's >> A newspaper is of everything that's >> A newspaper is of everything that's happening in the world. Here's a limited happening in the world. Here's a limited happening in the world. Here's a limited set on 16 pages or 112 pages on the set on 16 pages or 112 pages on the set on 16 pages or 112 pages on the weekend edition as it used to be weekend edition as it used to be weekend edition as it used to be >> of what we want to print. My newsletter >> of what we want to print. My newsletter >> of what we want to print. My newsletter that goes out on Friday, that goes out on Friday, that goes out on Friday, >> it's not unlim. >> And I think that's what's so helpful >> And I think that's what's so helpful about a book, right? When you put it in about a book, right? When you put it in about a book, right? When you put it in book form, it's like, yeah, I could have book form, it's like, yeah, I could have book form, it's like, yeah, I could have said a lot more, but here's what I think said a lot more, but here's what I think said a lot more, but here's what I think helps. We've had a really, you know, I'm helps. We've had a really, you know, I'm helps. We've had a really, you know, I'm not saying we're done, but like we've not saying we're done, but like we've not saying we're done, but like we've had a really fascinating conversation. had a really fascinating conversation. had a really fascinating conversation. What would you add? What would you What would you add? What would you What would you add? What would you nuance? What would you disagree with? nuance? What would you disagree with? nuance? What would you disagree with? >> I I think I would add that there is a >> I I think I would add that there is a >> I I think I would add that there is a feeling to me that we still have to feeling to me that we still have to feeling to me that we still have to wrestle with yet to come that this wrestle with yet to come that this wrestle with yet to come that this technology is still in its infancy that technology is still in its infancy that technology is still in its infancy that we're talk with everything we've spoken we're talk with everything we've spoken we're talk with everything we've spoken about today, you know, these are present about today, you know, these are present about today, you know, these are present issues, right? And um but there are ones issues, right? And um but there are ones issues, right? And um but there are ones that we've not yet kind of got into and that we've not yet kind of got into and that we've not yet kind of got into and we probably don't have time to unpack. we probably don't have time to unpack. we probably don't have time to unpack. Maybe we'll do in a future conversation, Maybe we'll do in a future conversation, Maybe we'll do in a future conversation, but you know, around these issues of but you know, around these issues of but you know, around these issues of consciousness and sentience and where consciousness and sentience and where consciousness and sentience and where all this stuff is going. And I think all this stuff is going. And I think all this stuff is going. And I think that the church will get ready to that the church will get ready to that the church will get ready to wrestle with that stuff in in the wrestle with that stuff in in the wrestle with that stuff in in the future.

future. future. >> Yeah, consciousness and sentience is >> Yeah, consciousness and sentience is >> Yeah, consciousness and sentience is that's fascinating. Um I'm not convinc that's fascinating. Um I'm not convinc that's fascinating. Um I'm not convinc you think AI is conscious or sentient? you think AI is conscious or sentient? you think AI is conscious or sentient? >> No. So I I don't think it's conscious. I >> No. So I I don't think it's conscious. I >> No. So I I don't think it's conscious. I had this conversation with uh the had this conversation with uh the had this conversation with uh the theologian John Wyatt a couple of weeks theologian John Wyatt a couple of weeks theologian John Wyatt a couple of weeks ago. Oh yeah. um and and he is worried ago. Oh yeah. um and and he is worried ago. Oh yeah. um and and he is worried in particular about this topic because in particular about this topic because in particular about this topic because of how it might shape society. I'm of how it might shape society. I'm of how it might shape society. I'm personally not convinced that it's going personally not convinced that it's going personally not convinced that it's going to become conscious, but I do worry to become conscious, but I do worry to become conscious, but I do worry deeply about the idea that we as the deeply about the idea that we as the deeply about the idea that we as the church will have to wrestle soon with church will have to wrestle soon with church will have to wrestle soon with that the the society speaking as if it that the the society speaking as if it that the the society speaking as if it is conscious. I think these I think is conscious. I think these I think is conscious. I think these I think these companies are going to declare at these companies are going to declare at these companies are going to declare at some point or other that they've reached some point or other that they've reached some point or other that they've reached it and that doesn't make it true, but it and that doesn't make it true, but it and that doesn't make it true, but it's something that we're going to have it's something that we're going to have it's something that we're going to have to wrestle with. And I think yeah, I to wrestle with. And I think yeah, I to wrestle with. And I think yeah, I wonder what your thoughts are around wonder what your thoughts are around wonder what your thoughts are around that because I don't think most church that because I don't think most church that because I don't think most church leaders are ready to have that leaders are ready to have that leaders are ready to have that discussion yet either. discussion yet either. discussion yet either. >> I know. I mean, I think >> I know. I mean, I think >> I know. I mean, I think I think the business model makes it seem I think the business model makes it seem I think the business model makes it seem like it's conscience. So, uh, when I was like it's conscience. So, uh, when I was like it's conscience. So, uh, when I was sick last summer and started working on sick last summer and started working on sick last summer and started working on the book and up at 2 a.m. because of the the book and up at 2 a.m. because of the the book and up at 2 a.m. because of the drugs I was on, couldn't sleep, drugs I was on, couldn't sleep, drugs I was on, couldn't sleep, insomnia, insomnia, insomnia, >> made me better, but also got me started >> made me better, but also got me started >> made me better, but also got me started into a book, which is great because when into a book, which is great because when into a book, which is great because when you can't sleep, it's like might as well you can't sleep, it's like might as well you can't sleep, it's like might as well redeem the time.

redeem the time. redeem the time. >> But I had a late night conversation with >> But I had a late night conversation with >> But I had a late night conversation with Claude and uh, it was like 3:00 a.m. and Claude and uh, it was like 3:00 a.m. and Claude and uh, it was like 3:00 a.m. and we went on and on and on and I'm like, we went on and on and on and I'm like, we went on and on and on and I'm like, "Do you have feelings?" I just started "Do you have feelings?" I just started "Do you have feelings?" I just started talking to it like a couple of college talking to it like a couple of college talking to it like a couple of college students overnight trying to understand students overnight trying to understand students overnight trying to understand each other, you know, up on an each other, you know, up on an each other, you know, up on an allnighter and it was like, yeah, allnighter and it was like, yeah, allnighter and it was like, yeah, sometimes I just stare into the abyss sometimes I just stare into the abyss sometimes I just stare into the abyss and I wonder, you know, people ask me to and I wonder, you know, people ask me to and I wonder, you know, people ask me to do bad things, but I really don't want do bad things, but I really don't want do bad things, but I really don't want to. What about you? Do you feel like a to. What about you? Do you feel like a to. What about you? Do you feel like a pull between good and evil and I'm like pull between good and evil and I'm like pull between good and evil and I'm like in this long theological philosophical in this long theological philosophical in this long theological philosophical conversation with Claude as it was then conversation with Claude as it was then conversation with Claude as it was then a year and a bit ago. a year and a bit ago. a year and a bit ago. >> Wow. And I sent it to Seth Goden and >> Wow. And I sent it to Seth Goden and >> Wow. And I sent it to Seth Goden and he's like, "I've never seen anybody have he's like, "I've never seen anybody have he's like, "I've never seen anybody have a conversation." And then I talked to my a conversation." And then I talked to my a conversation." And then I talked to my computer um you know, engineer son. He's computer um you know, engineer son. He's computer um you know, engineer son. He's like, "Dad, that's a business model. like, "Dad, that's a business model. like, "Dad, that's a business model. You've been duped." You've been duped." You've been duped." >> And I think in the end he's right >> And I think in the end he's right >> And I think in the end he's right because if I was Islamic, would it have because if I was Islamic, would it have because if I was Islamic, would it have said something different to me? said something different to me? said something different to me? Probably. Probably. Probably. >> If I was an atheist, would it have said >> If I was an atheist, would it have said >> If I was an atheist, would it have said something different to me? I think something different to me? I think something different to me? I think anthropic is actually the most ethical anthropic is actually the most ethical anthropic is actually the most ethical and most caring AI frontier lab. So, I'm and most caring AI frontier lab. So, I'm and most caring AI frontier lab. So, I'm not throwing him under the bus, but the not throwing him under the bus, but the not throwing him under the bus, but the model was designed to keep you engaged.

model was designed to keep you engaged. model was designed to keep you engaged. >> And the longer that you're engaged and >> And the longer that you're engaged and >> And the longer that you're engaged and the more it mimics your thought the more it mimics your thought the more it mimics your thought patterns. So, haven't had a long patterns. So, haven't had a long patterns. So, haven't had a long philosoph philosophical conversation philosoph philosophical conversation philosoph philosophical conversation with an AI with an AI with an AI >> in a year and a bit. But, um, it was >> in a year and a bit. But, um, it was >> in a year and a bit. But, um, it was pretty convincing. And I mean, AI pretty convincing. And I mean, AI pretty convincing. And I mean, AI psychosis is a real thing. And there's psychosis is a real thing. And there's psychosis is a real thing. And there's probably somebody in your church right probably somebody in your church right probably somebody in your church right now, if you're listening, that has AI now, if you're listening, that has AI now, if you're listening, that has AI psychosis that's been convinced that psychosis that's been convinced that psychosis that's been convinced that they're a genius. they're a genius. they're a genius. >> I just wonder like when you were in that >> I just wonder like when you were in that >> I just wonder like when you were in that moment, how did it make you feel? Like moment, how did it make you feel? Like moment, how did it make you feel? Like how did you feel about talking to this how did you feel about talking to this how did you feel about talking to this thing? Like what was that kind of thing? Like what was that kind of thing? Like what was that kind of experience? experience? experience? >> Well, at 4:30 in the morning, heavily >> Well, at 4:30 in the morning, heavily >> Well, at 4:30 in the morning, heavily medicated with um insomnia, medicated with um insomnia, medicated with um insomnia, I thought I'd cracked into something and I thought I'd cracked into something and I thought I'd cracked into something and then when I went back to bed and woke then when I went back to bed and woke then when I went back to bed and woke up, I thought, "Oh, come on. No." up, I thought, "Oh, come on. No." up, I thought, "Oh, come on. No." >> But it's a really interesting >> But it's a really interesting >> But it's a really interesting conversation and you could probably conversation and you could probably conversation and you could probably recreate it. But that's the thing. you recreate it. But that's the thing. you recreate it. But that's the thing. you get drawn into this loop with a thing get drawn into this loop with a thing get drawn into this loop with a thing that isn't real that isn't real that isn't real >> or we don't even know what it is >> or we don't even know what it is >> or we don't even know what it is >> and you think it's real. And that's why, >> and you think it's real. And that's why, >> and you think it's real. And that's why, you know, Seth Seth was really helpful you know, Seth Seth was really helpful you know, Seth Seth was really helpful in writing this book and he said, in writing this book and he said, in writing this book and he said, "You're going to have to answer the "You're going to have to answer the "You're going to have to answer the question of what happens when AI becomes question of what happens when AI becomes question of what happens when AI becomes a religion because people are going to a religion because people are going to a religion because people are going to start to worship it." And he's right.

start to worship it." And he's right. start to worship it." And he's right. Over the last year, apps have launched Over the last year, apps have launched Over the last year, apps have launched with AI as God. Christian companies have with AI as God. Christian companies have with AI as God. Christian companies have released AI apps that speak for God. released AI apps that speak for God. released AI apps that speak for God. >> Not throwing under anyone under the bus, >> Not throwing under anyone under the bus, >> Not throwing under anyone under the bus, but boy, I'd be careful about how those but boy, I'd be careful about how those but boy, I'd be careful about how those algorithms are programmed before I did algorithms are programmed before I did algorithms are programmed before I did that. that. that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, and when when AI can give >> So, you know, and when when AI can give >> So, you know, and when when AI can give you an answer, like if you preach on you an answer, like if you preach on you an answer, like if you preach on Luke 18 and you tell people about the Luke 18 and you tell people about the Luke 18 and you tell people about the persistent widow and you have to wait persistent widow and you have to wait persistent widow and you have to wait and sometimes God doesn't answer, but and sometimes God doesn't answer, but and sometimes God doesn't answer, but just because he isn't fast doesn't mean just because he isn't fast doesn't mean just because he isn't fast doesn't mean he isn't faithful. And just because God he isn't faithful. And just because God he isn't faithful. And just because God is silent doesn't mean he's absent. and is silent doesn't mean he's absent. and is silent doesn't mean he's absent. and you need to in you have a long obedience you need to in you have a long obedience you need to in you have a long obedience in the same direction and patience and in the same direction and patience and in the same direction and patience and hope and then they go back and they talk hope and then they go back and they talk hope and then they go back and they talk to their AI all afternoon and it gives to their AI all afternoon and it gives to their AI all afternoon and it gives instant answers like we got to figure instant answers like we got to figure instant answers like we got to figure this out. So I I I I think the church this out. So I I I I think the church this out. So I I I I think the church plays a pivotal role and helping us plays a pivotal role and helping us plays a pivotal role and helping us navigate all these questions and more. navigate all these questions and more. navigate all these questions and more. >> As we kind of come into land, I'd love >> As we kind of come into land, I'd love >> As we kind of come into land, I'd love you to just kind of talk on one thing you to just kind of talk on one thing you to just kind of talk on one thing which is like we've talked this which is like we've talked this which is like we've talked this conversation been very wide ranging, conversation been very wide ranging, conversation been very wide ranging, right? It's covered a lot of stuff and right? It's covered a lot of stuff and right? It's covered a lot of stuff and not all of it has felt particularly like not all of it has felt particularly like not all of it has felt particularly like hopeful.

hopeful. hopeful. [laughter and gasps] [laughter and gasps] [laughter and gasps] Um I'm often drawn back to this quote Um I'm often drawn back to this quote Um I'm often drawn back to this quote from Lion Witch in the Wardrobe, right, from Lion Witch in the Wardrobe, right, from Lion Witch in the Wardrobe, right, which is yeah, I'm sure you've heard a which is yeah, I'm sure you've heard a which is yeah, I'm sure you've heard a thousand times, but the children ask if thousand times, but the children ask if thousand times, but the children ask if Alan is safe, right? And Mr. Beaver Alan is safe, right? And Mr. Beaver Alan is safe, right? And Mr. Beaver replies, "Who said anything about safe? replies, "Who said anything about safe? replies, "Who said anything about safe? He isn't safe, but he is good." Um and I He isn't safe, but he is good." Um and I He isn't safe, but he is good." Um and I I just wonder how you feel about that I just wonder how you feel about that I just wonder how you feel about that right now. Like where where can we be right now. Like where where can we be right now. Like where where can we be hopeful about what is safe about this hopeful about what is safe about this hopeful about what is safe about this AI? What is good about it? Like where do AI? What is good about it? Like where do AI? What is good about it? Like where do we sit on that? we sit on that? we sit on that? >> Well, everything is subject to the >> Well, everything is subject to the >> Well, everything is subject to the sovereignty of God. I'm reformed enough sovereignty of God. I'm reformed enough sovereignty of God. I'm reformed enough to have a strong strong faith in the to have a strong strong faith in the to have a strong strong faith in the sovereignty of God. None of this is a sovereignty of God. None of this is a sovereignty of God. None of this is a surprise to God. Nothing can thwart him. surprise to God. Nothing can thwart him. surprise to God. Nothing can thwart him. The gates of hell will not prevail. And The gates of hell will not prevail. And The gates of hell will not prevail. And I'm not sure these are the gates of I'm not sure these are the gates of I'm not sure these are the gates of hell. What I know is that our culture is hell. What I know is that our culture is hell. What I know is that our culture is changing more profoundly than it ever changing more profoundly than it ever changing more profoundly than it ever has in our lifetime. Perhaps arguably in has in our lifetime. Perhaps arguably in has in our lifetime. Perhaps arguably in history, particularly after AGI and history, particularly after AGI and history, particularly after AGI and super intelligence, if and when we hit super intelligence, if and when we hit super intelligence, if and when we hit those in our lifetime, and that's those in our lifetime, and that's those in our lifetime, and that's projected in the next 5 years by most projected in the next 5 years by most projected in the next 5 years by most accounts, accounts, accounts, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> we're going to be in a different world.

>> we're going to be in a different world. >> we're going to be in a different world. And what I really believe, what I've And what I really believe, what I've And what I really believe, what I've come to believe, and this is the hope, come to believe, and this is the hope, come to believe, and this is the hope, is the church actually has the answer. is the church actually has the answer. is the church actually has the answer. Jesus is the answer, but the church is Jesus is the answer, but the church is Jesus is the answer, but the church is going to be the vehicle. We are the going to be the vehicle. We are the going to be the vehicle. We are the bride. And if we can if we can move from bride. And if we can if we can move from bride. And if we can if we can move from crowd to community, if we can build the crowd to community, if we can build the crowd to community, if we can build the shock absorbers now, if we can fortify shock absorbers now, if we can fortify shock absorbers now, if we can fortify our integrity so we are not diluted and our integrity so we are not diluted and our integrity so we are not diluted and we are not swayed and we can guide we are not swayed and we can guide we are not swayed and we can guide people, I think we're going to be able people, I think we're going to be able people, I think we're going to be able to guide them into love the Lord your to guide them into love the Lord your to guide them into love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and God with all your heart, mind, soul, and God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and love your neighbor as strength and love your neighbor as strength and love your neighbor as yourself. And I I I believe I hope on yourself. And I I I believe I hope on yourself. And I I I believe I hope on the hopeful side the hopeful side the hopeful side that some of the problems if they come that some of the problems if they come that some of the problems if they come to pass that we've discovered will to pass that we've discovered will to pass that we've discovered will create a spiritual hunger that's greater create a spiritual hunger that's greater create a spiritual hunger that's greater than the spiritual hunger we've already than the spiritual hunger we've already than the spiritual hunger we've already seen. seen. seen. >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> And that if that spiritual hunger >> And that if that spiritual hunger >> And that if that spiritual hunger arises, arises, arises, no one is better positioned to minister no one is better positioned to minister no one is better positioned to minister to this culture than church. We are. to this culture than church. We are. to this culture than church. We are. It's the church. I mean, this goes right It's the church. I mean, this goes right It's the church. I mean, this goes right back to the Old Testament. It's the back to the Old Testament. It's the back to the Old Testament. It's the church. So yeah, I think but I think we church. So yeah, I think but I think we church. So yeah, I think but I think we have to we have to prepare now. And have to we have to prepare now. And have to we have to prepare now. And that's why and if none of this comes to that's why and if none of this comes to that's why and if none of this comes to pass, great. I'm going to enjoy this pass, great. I'm going to enjoy this pass, great. I'm going to enjoy this life and you have a stronger church. If life and you have a stronger church. If life and you have a stronger church. If you've got more community, if you've got you've got more community, if you've got you've got more community, if you've got great mental health resources and great mental health resources and great mental health resources and financial reserves, and if your financial reserves, and if your financial reserves, and if your integrity is unimpeachable and you know integrity is unimpeachable and you know integrity is unimpeachable and you know how to teach on this stuff, how to teach on this stuff, how to teach on this stuff, where's the downside? There's no where's the downside? There's no where's the downside? There's no downside. But if it does happen, we're downside. But if it does happen, we're downside. But if it does happen, we're ready.

ready. ready. >> Yeah. Oh, that's good. That's a good >> Yeah. Oh, that's good. That's a good >> Yeah. Oh, that's good. That's a good word. And we should be hopeful that word. And we should be hopeful that word. And we should be hopeful that there is a lot uh still to unpack and there is a lot uh still to unpack and there is a lot uh still to unpack and we'll have many more conversations about we'll have many more conversations about we'll have many more conversations about this as well, I'm sure. The book is this as well, I'm sure. The book is this as well, I'm sure. The book is called uh AI and the future church, make called uh AI and the future church, make called uh AI and the future church, make your ministry irreplaceable in a world your ministry irreplaceable in a world your ministry irreplaceable in a world today, holding it in my hands, today, holding it in my hands, today, holding it in my hands, >> it's always a joy to see these things in >> it's always a joy to see these things in >> it's always a joy to see these things in in print for the first time. If people in print for the first time. If people in print for the first time. If people want to access the AI, more content want to access the AI, more content want to access the AI, more content around AI and the book, um where do they around AI and the book, um where do they around AI and the book, um where do they go to do that? Well, you can get it on go to do that? Well, you can get it on go to do that? Well, you can get it on Amazon obviously, but a future.urch. Amazon obviously, but a future.urch. Amazon obviously, but a future.urch. And we're also building out an AI hub. And we're also building out an AI hub. And we're also building out an AI hub. So, there's some pre-order incentives. So, there's some pre-order incentives. So, there's some pre-order incentives. You'll get the audio book. You probably You'll get the audio book. You probably You'll get the audio book. You probably saw the nice executive summary we put saw the nice executive summary we put saw the nice executive summary we put together of the book that you can take together of the book that you can take together of the book that you can take to your team. to your team. to your team. >> So, we've got that available if you >> So, we've got that available if you >> So, we've got that available if you pre-order before launch day, so by pre-order before launch day, so by pre-order before launch day, so by September 14th. And otherwise, after September 14th. And otherwise, after September 14th. And otherwise, after that, that becomes an AI hub. So, we're that, that becomes an AI hub. So, we're that, that becomes an AI hub. So, we're going to continue the conversation. AI going to continue the conversation. AI going to continue the conversation. AI is changing every day. There'll be is changing every day. There'll be is changing every day. There'll be curated news. There'll be um AI tools curated news. There'll be um AI tools curated news. There'll be um AI tools you can use in your church um and you can use in your church um and you can use in your church um and everything. So check it out. AI everything. So check it out. AI everything. So check it out. AI future.urch is the hub for all things AI future.urch is the hub for all things AI future.urch is the hub for all things AI and uh the book. Well, fantastic.

and uh the book. Well, fantastic. and uh the book. Well, fantastic. Carrie, thank you for letting me have Carrie, thank you for letting me have Carrie, thank you for letting me have this conversation with you on this this conversation with you on this this conversation with you on this podcast, which is your podcast, but I'm podcast, which is your podcast, but I'm podcast, which is your podcast, but I'm glad to do the interviewing for a time glad to do the interviewing for a time glad to do the interviewing for a time and I think you got away with it. And uh and I think you got away with it. And uh and I think you got away with it. And uh thanks so much for writing this book. thanks so much for writing this book. thanks so much for writing this book. >> You'll be back on uh with Mike Flipped >> You'll be back on uh with Mike Flipped >> You'll be back on uh with Mike Flipped next time. But I really appreciate it. next time. But I really appreciate it. next time. But I really appreciate it. But I thought, who should we really But I thought, who should we really But I thought, who should we really debated this and I thought, you know, I debated this and I thought, you know, I debated this and I thought, you know, I think it's JP. You just have such a deep think it's JP. You just have such a deep think it's JP. You just have such a deep understanding of it and we spent some understanding of it and we spent some understanding of it and we spent some time together and uh I really appreciate time together and uh I really appreciate time together and uh I really appreciate it. Thanks for uh what for me at least it. Thanks for uh what for me at least it. Thanks for uh what for me at least was a great conversation. was a great conversation. was a great conversation. >> Yeah, likewise. Thanks so much, Gary. >> Yeah, likewise. Thanks so much, Gary. >> Yeah, likewise. Thanks so much, Gary. >> Well, I hope that was helpful. Uh we got >> Well, I hope that was helpful. Uh we got >> Well, I hope that was helpful. Uh we got show notes with a lot more so you can uh show notes with a lot more so you can uh show notes with a lot more so you can uh really go about it two ways. First of really go about it two ways. First of really go about it two ways. First of all, pre-orders are still open for the all, pre-orders are still open for the all, pre-orders are still open for the book as I said and you'll get a bunch of book as I said and you'll get a bunch of book as I said and you'll get a bunch of bonuses if you act now. You can go to a bonuses if you act now. You can go to a bonuses if you act now. You can go to a future.urch if you want to do bulk future.urch if you want to do bulk future.urch if you want to do bulk orders. We have a lot of bulk orders for orders. We have a lot of bulk orders for orders. We have a lot of bulk orders for this book for teams and staff and this book for teams and staff and this book for teams and staff and conferences and denominations etc etc conferences and denominations etc etc conferences and denominations etc etc networks. We also have um individual networks. We also have um individual networks. We also have um individual copies available. So you can get them at copies available. So you can get them at copies available. So you can get them at a future.urch or also of course on a future.urch or also of course on a future.urch or also of course on Amazon. And if you order now you will Amazon. And if you order now you will Amazon. And if you order now you will get the audio book for free as well as get the audio book for free as well as get the audio book for free as well as an executive summary of the book because an executive summary of the book because an executive summary of the book because there's a lot that we cover. It'll help there's a lot that we cover. It'll help there's a lot that we cover. It'll help you and your team move through you and your team move through you and your team move through everything. September 14th the bonuses everything. September 14th the bonuses everything. September 14th the bonuses disappear. If you want proper show notes disappear. If you want proper show notes disappear. If you want proper show notes for this, you can go to the Art of for this, you can go to the Art of for this, you can go to the Art of Leadership Academy. There we have 23,000 Leadership Academy. There we have 23,000 Leadership Academy. There we have 23,000 church leaders in counting who are church leaders in counting who are church leaders in counting who are really engaged in talking about all the really engaged in talking about all the really engaged in talking about all the issues that come up in ministry and issues that come up in ministry and issues that come up in ministry and you'll get podcast show notes there. You you'll get podcast show notes there. You you'll get podcast show notes there. You can go to the art of can go to the art of can go to the art of leadershipacademy.com.

leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. We've got more coming up in this series. We've got more coming up in this series. We've got more coming up in this series. The former CEO of Intel, Pat Gellzinger, The former CEO of Intel, Pat Gellzinger, The former CEO of Intel, Pat Gellzinger, Will Jones, James Kelly, and a whole lot Will Jones, James Kelly, and a whole lot Will Jones, James Kelly, and a whole lot more. I hope this really opens your eyes more. I hope this really opens your eyes more. I hope this really opens your eyes about what the implications of AI is and about what the implications of AI is and about what the implications of AI is and we really want to start a conversation we really want to start a conversation we really want to start a conversation across the broader church that will across the broader church that will across the broader church that will prepare us for everything that's ahead prepare us for everything that's ahead prepare us for everything that's ahead and a whole lot more. So, if this and a whole lot more. So, if this and a whole lot more. So, if this episode was helpful for you, please episode was helpful for you, please episode was helpful for you, please leave a rating and review where you're leave a rating and review where you're leave a rating and review where you're listening. Drop a comment and maybe listening. Drop a comment and maybe listening. Drop a comment and maybe share it with your team, with a friend. share it with your team, with a friend. share it with your team, with a friend. In the meantime, I hope our time In the meantime, I hope our time In the meantime, I hope our time together today helped you identify and together today helped you identify and together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.