Matt Chandler on Hitting The Wall and Recovering from Burnout

like a lot of guys, I hit the wall. like a lot of guys, I hit the wall. And the only way I know to explain it, And the only way I know to explain it, And the only way I know to explain it, the only language I have to understand the only language I have to understand the only language I have to understand is it just stopped working. is it just stopped working. is it just stopped working. I found in me a low-grade agitation. So, I found in me a low-grade agitation. So, I found in me a low-grade agitation. So, if if like if like sinning against if if like if like sinning against if if like if like sinning against people with verbal lashing and what's people with verbal lashing and what's people with verbal lashing and what's you know, I don't know if it's abuse or you know, I don't know if it's abuse or you know, I don't know if it's abuse or whatever is an eight, I was like always whatever is an eight, I was like always whatever is an eight, I was like always humming at about a six. humming at about a six. humming at about a six. And I could feel it was happening. And I And I could feel it was happening. And I And I could feel it was happening. And I it scared me. And I didn't understand it it scared me. And I didn't understand it it scared me. And I didn't understand it wasn't tied to how well the church was wasn't tied to how well the church was wasn't tied to how well the church was doing. It wasn't tied to how much sex I doing. It wasn't tied to how much sex I doing. It wasn't tied to how much sex I was having. It wasn't tied to how much was having. It wasn't tied to how much was having. It wasn't tied to how much money I had. money I had. money I had. Like like I couldn't I kept trying to Like like I couldn't I kept trying to Like like I couldn't I kept trying to like where where is this where's this like where where is this where's this like where where is this where's this coming from? Then I couldn't find it. coming from? Then I couldn't find it. coming from? Then I couldn't find it. And And And about that time I was sitting in this about that time I was sitting in this about that time I was sitting in this meeting with a guy at the church who was meeting with a guy at the church who was meeting with a guy at the church who was I mean, he was I don't know that I've I mean, he was I don't know that I've I mean, he was I don't know that I've ever seen a man melt like this. It's ever seen a man melt like this. It's ever seen a man melt like this. It's tears and snot. He was going through a tears and snot. He was going through a tears and snot. He was going through a really painful ordeal. And I caught really painful ordeal. And I caught really painful ordeal. And I caught myself not being in the room with him at myself not being in the room with him at myself not being in the room with him at all.

all. all. I was feeling nothing. In fact, in my I was feeling nothing. In fact, in my I was feeling nothing. In fact, in my head I was running through our processes head I was running through our processes head I was running through our processes to figure out who to hand this man to. to figure out who to hand this man to. to figure out who to hand this man to. Like do I send him to Jason and Like do I send him to Jason and Like do I send him to Jason and recovery? Do I got to get him over here recovery? Do I got to get him over here recovery? Do I got to get him over here to Trevor and groups? Like how do I get to Trevor and groups? Like how do I get to Trevor and groups? Like how do I get him where someone can help him? And I him where someone can help him? And I him where someone can help him? And I caught myself in the moment and I caught myself in the moment and I caught myself in the moment and I realized, hey, I'm sick. Welcome to the realized, hey, I'm sick. Welcome to the realized, hey, I'm sick. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. It's Carey here, so glad that YouTube. It's Carey here, so glad that YouTube. It's Carey here, so glad that you joined us and if it's your first you joined us and if it's your first you joined us and if it's your first time tuning in, make sure you hit time tuning in, make sure you hit time tuning in, make sure you hit subscribe. Well, today we've got Matt subscribe. Well, today we've got Matt subscribe. Well, today we've got Matt Chandler on the podcast. He is the lead Chandler on the podcast. He is the lead Chandler on the podcast. He is the lead teaching pastor at Village Church in teaching pastor at Village Church in teaching pastor at Village Church in Texas and well, he opens up. We talk Texas and well, he opens up. We talk Texas and well, he opens up. We talk about about about a leave of absence. We talk about a leave of absence. We talk about a leave of absence. We talk about burnout and hitting the wall. We talk burnout and hitting the wall. We talk burnout and hitting the wall. We talk about about about what happens on Instagram sometimes and what happens on Instagram sometimes and what happens on Instagram sometimes and a whole a plus some lessons on a whole a plus some lessons on a whole a plus some lessons on transitioning a church. Well, today's transitioning a church. Well, today's transitioning a church. Well, today's episode is brought to you by my live episode is brought to you by my live episode is brought to you by my live event, The Art of Leadership Live. So, event, The Art of Leadership Live. So, event, The Art of Leadership Live. So, this is a curated event, and see if it's this is a curated event, and see if it's this is a curated event, and see if it's right for you. I took a look at the list right for you. I took a look at the list right for you. I took a look at the list of leaders who are registered for this of leaders who are registered for this of leaders who are registered for this conference. It's 3 days in Dallas in conference. It's 3 days in Dallas in conference. It's 3 days in Dallas in September, and I got to tell you, we got September, and I got to tell you, we got September, and I got to tell you, we got some past podcast guests on there, some some past podcast guests on there, some some past podcast guests on there, some future podcast guests on there. It's future podcast guests on there. It's future podcast guests on there. It's exciting. I'm so stoked to be connecting exciting. I'm so stoked to be connecting exciting. I'm so stoked to be connecting with those leaders, and it's by with those leaders, and it's by with those leaders, and it's by application only. If you want more application only. If you want more application only. If you want more information, you can simply go to the information, you can simply go to the information, you can simply go to the art of leadershiplive.com.

art of leadershiplive.com. art of leadershiplive.com. That's the art of leadershiplive.com, That's the art of leadershiplive.com, That's the art of leadershiplive.com, and you can check it out. So, also, have and you can check it out. So, also, have and you can check it out. So, also, have you got a little bit much going on right you got a little bit much going on right you got a little bit much going on right now? Well, if you do, Belay would love now? Well, if you do, Belay would love now? Well, if you do, Belay would love to help. They've got a free ebook for to help. They've got a free ebook for to help. They've got a free ebook for you, and it's called Rise Up and Lead you, and it's called Rise Up and Lead you, and it's called Rise Up and Lead Well. You can get your copy by simply Well. You can get your copy by simply Well. You can get your copy by simply texting my name, Carey, c a r e y, to texting my name, Carey, c a r e y, to texting my name, Carey, c a r e y, to 55123. That's Carey to 55123. And now, 55123. That's Carey to 55123. And now, 55123. That's Carey to 55123. And now, my conversation with Matt Chandler. my conversation with Matt Chandler. my conversation with Matt Chandler. Matt, it's been too long, long overdue. Matt, it's been too long, long overdue. Matt, it's been too long, long overdue. Welcome to the podcast. Oh, man, it's Welcome to the podcast. Oh, man, it's Welcome to the podcast. Oh, man, it's it's great to spend some time with you, it's great to spend some time with you, it's great to spend some time with you, Carey. I've been a long-time listener, Carey. I've been a long-time listener, Carey. I've been a long-time listener, so it's it's feels a little surreal to so it's it's feels a little surreal to so it's it's feels a little surreal to be on this side of it. Well, it seems a be on this side of it. Well, it seems a be on this side of it. Well, it seems a little surreal to have you, and we we've little surreal to have you, and we we've little surreal to have you, and we we've had numerous opportunities to hang out had numerous opportunities to hang out had numerous opportunities to hang out in real life. And it's just one of those in real life. And it's just one of those in real life. And it's just one of those things, it's like, that's right, I've things, it's like, that's right, I've things, it's like, that's right, I've never had Matt. Time, let's go. Let's never had Matt. Time, let's go. Let's never had Matt. Time, let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. So, uh I want to go. Let's go. Let's go. So, uh I want to go. Let's go. Let's go. So, uh I want to go back. Uh this is interesting to me go back. Uh this is interesting to me go back. Uh this is interesting to me cuz this is part of my story as well. cuz this is part of my story as well. cuz this is part of my story as well. Apparently, according to the internet, Apparently, according to the internet, Apparently, according to the internet, uh you moved a lot when you were a kid.

uh you moved a lot when you were a kid. uh you moved a lot when you were a kid. Um Um Um how come, and in what ways did that how come, and in what ways did that how come, and in what ways did that impact you? impact you? impact you? Yeah, so my dad was in the Navy, um Yeah, so my dad was in the Navy, um Yeah, so my dad was in the Navy, um and so we we moved around every few and so we we moved around every few and so we we moved around every few years. And and I think it's, you know, years. And and I think it's, you know, years. And and I think it's, you know, as I've thought about my life, I don't as I've thought about my life, I don't as I've thought about my life, I don't it's kind of a chicken or egg question. it's kind of a chicken or egg question. it's kind of a chicken or egg question. Like, um did did I come out of the womb Like, um did did I come out of the womb Like, um did did I come out of the womb an extrovert, or did I learn that if I an extrovert, or did I learn that if I an extrovert, or did I learn that if I was going have friends, I needed to move was going have friends, I needed to move was going have friends, I needed to move quickly, I needed to trust quickly, I quickly, I needed to trust quickly, I quickly, I needed to trust quickly, I needed to introduce myself, insert needed to introduce myself, insert needed to introduce myself, insert myself, roll the dice on rejection, and myself, roll the dice on rejection, and myself, roll the dice on rejection, and try new things. Uh and so those are all try new things. Uh and so those are all try new things. Uh and so those are all part of my personality even now. I tend part of my personality even now. I tend part of my personality even now. I tend to trust quickly. Uh I tend to not I I to trust quickly. Uh I tend to not I I to trust quickly. Uh I tend to not I I mean I will I I introduced myself at at mean I will I I introduced myself at at mean I will I I introduced myself at at the gym this morning to three people I the gym this morning to three people I the gym this morning to three people I didn't know. Uh I don't mind just didn't know. Uh I don't mind just didn't know. Uh I don't mind just inserting myself into a conversation, inserting myself into a conversation, inserting myself into a conversation, and I'm always down to to try new things and I'm always down to to try new things and I'm always down to to try new things and see what happens. And so I think and see what happens. And so I think and see what happens. And so I think it's probably a little bit of both. I it's probably a little bit of both. I it's probably a little bit of both. I think I am naturally extroverted, think I am naturally extroverted, think I am naturally extroverted, uh but then on top of that, um I think uh but then on top of that, um I think uh but then on top of that, um I think that was reinforced in the furnace of that was reinforced in the furnace of that was reinforced in the furnace of you got 3 years to make friends here.

you got 3 years to make friends here. you got 3 years to make friends here. Wow, okay, that's interesting cuz it Wow, okay, that's interesting cuz it Wow, okay, that's interesting cuz it could go the other way. I think with me could go the other way. I think with me could go the other way. I think with me it went the other way. it went the other way. it went the other way. Yeah, it went that way for my older Yeah, it went that way for my older Yeah, it went that way for my older sister, sister, sister, um but my little sister and I I'm um but my little sister and I I'm um but my little sister and I I'm middle, and so my little sister and I we middle, and so my little sister and I we middle, and so my little sister and I we became like driven achievers. We're became like driven achievers. We're became like driven achievers. We're going to meet everybody. We're going to going to meet everybody. We're going to going to meet everybody. We're going to We're going to We're going to walk in a We're going to We're going to walk in a We're going to We're going to walk in a room and we're going to leave with 10 room and we're going to leave with 10 room and we're going to leave with 10 phone numbers. And um my sister, you phone numbers. And um my sister, you phone numbers. And um my sister, you wouldn't know she was there. wouldn't know she was there. wouldn't know she was there. My older one, she would She would have My older one, she would She would have My older one, she would She would have found a corner. She would have hated found a corner. She would have hated found a corner. She would have hated being there the whole time, and she'd be being there the whole time, and she'd be being there the whole time, and she'd be really eager to get back to her room at really eager to get back to her room at really eager to get back to her room at the house. the house. the house. So one introvert in the mix for sure. So one introvert in the mix for sure. So one introvert in the mix for sure. That's right. That's interesting. Do you That's right. That's interesting. Do you That's right. That's interesting. Do you think that was a helpful skill in think that was a helpful skill in think that was a helpful skill in ministry down the road or at least an ministry down the road or at least an ministry down the road or at least an orientation or attitude? Oh oh orientation or attitude? Oh oh orientation or attitude? Oh oh certainly. I I think the the Lord was certainly. I I think the the Lord was certainly. I I think the the Lord was in that in multiple ways shaping me for in that in multiple ways shaping me for in that in multiple ways shaping me for days that I couldn't have imagined at days that I couldn't have imagined at days that I couldn't have imagined at that time. that time. that time. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So when did you first realize you were So when did you first realize you were So when did you first realize you were called to be a pastor? called to be a pastor? called to be a pastor? Oh my gosh. Well, I'll try to Like I did Oh my gosh. Well, I'll try to Like I did Oh my gosh. Well, I'll try to Like I did not not not Like I became a Christian right before Like I became a Christian right before Like I became a Christian right before my 18th birthday, and I mean just caught my 18th birthday, and I mean just caught my 18th birthday, and I mean just caught fire. Like I mean I left my junior year fire. Like I mean I left my junior year fire. Like I mean I left my junior year being one of the more grimy kids at the being one of the more grimy kids at the being one of the more grimy kids at the school, had an encounter with Jesus and school, had an encounter with Jesus and school, had an encounter with Jesus and came back for my senior year wearing an came back for my senior year wearing an came back for my senior year wearing an I heart Jesus shirt and carrying my I heart Jesus shirt and carrying my I heart Jesus shirt and carrying my Bible to school.

Bible to school. Bible to school. And because of the way I became a And because of the way I became a And because of the way I became a Christian, which was a guy on the Christian, which was a guy on the Christian, which was a guy on the football team that started sharing the football team that started sharing the football team that started sharing the gospel with me, and then he gave me gospel with me, and then he gave me gospel with me, and then he gave me books to read, and he'd ask me to read books to read, and he'd ask me to read books to read, and he'd ask me to read chapters of the Bible, and we'd discuss chapters of the Bible, and we'd discuss chapters of the Bible, and we'd discuss them. Well, what I found is when I them. Well, what I found is when I them. Well, what I found is when I became a Christian, I actually was a became a Christian, I actually was a became a Christian, I actually was a little bit farther along than some kids little bit farther along than some kids little bit farther along than some kids who'd even grown up in church because who'd even grown up in church because who'd even grown up in church because for me it wasn't what my parents had for me it wasn't what my parents had for me it wasn't what my parents had taught me, but it was like this thing taught me, but it was like this thing taught me, but it was like this thing that I was captivated by. that I was captivated by. that I was captivated by. Uh and so it didn't take long. I was Uh and so it didn't take long. I was Uh and so it didn't take long. I was teaching a little Bible study after teaching a little Bible study after teaching a little Bible study after school uh to some guys on the team and school uh to some guys on the team and school uh to some guys on the team and then anybody at the school that wanted then anybody at the school that wanted then anybody at the school that wanted to come. And man, I loved teaching. But to come. And man, I loved teaching. But to come. And man, I loved teaching. But church to me always felt like um a church to me always felt like um a church to me always felt like um a hurdle, hurdle, hurdle, uh specifically with trying to see my uh specifically with trying to see my uh specifically with trying to see my lost friends become Christians, a hurdle lost friends become Christians, a hurdle lost friends become Christians, a hurdle I had to get past. And then I had a I had to get past. And then I had a I had to get past. And then I had a little job in ministry. Uh I was the little job in ministry. Uh I was the little job in ministry. Uh I was the student pastor of this tiny little student pastor of this tiny little student pastor of this tiny little church outside uh of Houston, and it was church outside uh of Houston, and it was church outside uh of Houston, and it was awful. And it was probably awful because awful. And it was probably awful because awful. And it was probably awful because I was a jackass and didn't know it. I I was a jackass and didn't know it. I I was a jackass and didn't know it. I mean, I was young and and and loud and mean, I was young and and and loud and mean, I was young and and and loud and opinionated, and I knew nothing of opinionated, and I knew nothing of opinionated, and I knew nothing of church politics. I didn't know why this church politics. I didn't know why this church politics. I didn't know why this room was sacred or why we couldn't do it room was sacred or why we couldn't do it room was sacred or why we couldn't do it this way. Uh and all I knew is I wanted this way. Uh and all I knew is I wanted this way. Uh and all I knew is I wanted to see kids come to know Jesus. And it I to see kids come to know Jesus. And it I to see kids come to know Jesus. And it I when I let them know I was leaving to go when I let them know I was leaving to go when I let them know I was leaving to go off to to school, I I think they off to to school, I I think they off to to school, I I think they probably breathed out because they probably breathed out because they probably breathed out because they didn't know how to fire me. Um but I didn't know how to fire me. Um but I didn't know how to fire me. Um but I took from that I'm I'm not called to took from that I'm I'm not called to took from that I'm I'm not called to ministry. I took from that that I need

ministry. I took from that that I need ministry. I took from that that I need to go ahead, get my law degree, make a to go ahead, get my law degree, make a to go ahead, get my law degree, make a crud ton of money, and just have a great crud ton of money, and just have a great crud ton of money, and just have a great Sunday school class at First Baptist Sunday school class at First Baptist Sunday school class at First Baptist wherever. So, I didn't I didn't I was I wherever. So, I didn't I didn't I was I wherever. So, I didn't I didn't I was I would have told you when when I was 22, would have told you when when I was 22, would have told you when when I was 22, I have no plans on ever becoming a I have no plans on ever becoming a I have no plans on ever becoming a pastor. And then I was at pastor. And then I was at pastor. And then I was at IHOP, not the church but the restaurant, IHOP, not the church but the restaurant, IHOP, not the church but the restaurant, the high-class restaurant. the high-class restaurant. the high-class restaurant. Um high-end stuff for me early on. Um high-end stuff for me early on. Um high-end stuff for me early on. And it's about 2:00 in the morning and And it's about 2:00 in the morning and And it's about 2:00 in the morning and there's a girl named Christy there there's a girl named Christy there there's a girl named Christy there that's just friends and she asked me, that's just friends and she asked me, that's just friends and she asked me, "When did you get called to ministry?" "When did you get called to ministry?" "When did you get called to ministry?" And I said, "I'm not I'm not called to And I said, "I'm not I'm not called to And I said, "I'm not I'm not called to ministry." And she just kind of smirked ministry." And she just kind of smirked ministry." And she just kind of smirked and said, "Well, I mean I think you and said, "Well, I mean I think you and said, "Well, I mean I think you probably are." probably are." probably are." And so I explained to her the whole And so I explained to her the whole And so I explained to her the whole thing that happened to me at that church thing that happened to me at that church thing that happened to me at that church outside of Houston. I mean I'm in outside of Houston. I mean I'm in outside of Houston. I mean I'm in constant conflict. The the church is a constant conflict. The the church is a constant conflict. The the church is a it's a barrier to coming to know Christ, it's a barrier to coming to know Christ, it's a barrier to coming to know Christ, not a help. And she just listened to me not a help. And she just listened to me not a help. And she just listened to me talk and then she said, "I hear all that talk and then she said, "I hear all that talk and then she said, "I hear all that and I and I still think you're called to and I and I still think you're called to and I and I still think you're called to ministry." And that was the Lord used ministry." And that was the Lord used ministry." And that was the Lord used that to haunt me for the next several that to haunt me for the next several that to haunt me for the next several weeks. Um and then I finally just weeks. Um and then I finally just weeks. Um and then I finally just surrendered but I didn't know what kind surrendered but I didn't know what kind surrendered but I didn't know what kind of pastor I would have I would be at the of pastor I would have I would be at the of pastor I would have I would be at the time because the where I got saved at a time because the where I got saved at a time because the where I got saved at a First Baptist Church in in the kind of First Baptist Church in in the kind of First Baptist Church in in the kind of blue-collar suburbs outside of the blue-collar suburbs outside of the blue-collar suburbs outside of the refineries in Houston or outside of refineries in Houston or outside of refineries in Houston or outside of Houston and there was a a lead pastor or Houston and there was a a lead pastor or Houston and there was a a lead pastor or a senior pastor as as he would be called a senior pastor as as he would be called a senior pastor as as he would be called that looked weird in jeans. There was that looked weird in jeans. There was that looked weird in jeans. There was the education minister and I'm that the education minister and I'm that the education minister and I'm that looked like an administrator to me and I looked like an administrator to me and I looked like an administrator to me and I wasn't interested in that.

wasn't interested in that. wasn't interested in that. And then there was the music guy and And then there was the music guy and And then there was the music guy and then there was the student guy. That then there was the student guy. That then there was the student guy. That that was my whole Christian view at that that was my whole Christian view at that that was my whole Christian view at that point and I didn't fit really into any point and I didn't fit really into any point and I didn't fit really into any of those categories so I didn't know of those categories so I didn't know of those categories so I didn't know what it would look like. I just said yes what it would look like. I just said yes what it would look like. I just said yes to ministry and and then went and to ministry and and then went and to ministry and and then went and changed my major and let my folks know changed my major and let my folks know changed my major and let my folks know and the rest is history at this point. and the rest is history at this point. and the rest is history at this point. Uh-huh. So, did you have a church Uh-huh. So, did you have a church Uh-huh. So, did you have a church background growing up? Um background growing up? Um background growing up? Um I mean kind of. Yeah. I mean kind of. Yeah. I mean kind of. Yeah. Um Daddy my my father uh who's come to Um Daddy my my father uh who's come to Um Daddy my my father uh who's come to know Christ now so I'm talking about the know Christ now so I'm talking about the know Christ now so I'm talking about the old man, the former man. Um had a lot he old man, the former man. Um had a lot he old man, the former man. Um had a lot he had a lot of darkness in him. Um and so had a lot of darkness in him. Um and so had a lot of darkness in him. Um and so he he drank a little bit too much and he he he drank a little bit too much and he he he drank a little bit too much and he could be prone to explosive fits. Uh but could be prone to explosive fits. Uh but could be prone to explosive fits. Uh but then my mom was was kind of a Well, she then my mom was was kind of a Well, she then my mom was was kind of a Well, she wasn't kind of a She like backwoods wasn't kind of a She like backwoods wasn't kind of a She like backwoods Missouri, almost snakes and poison. Like Missouri, almost snakes and poison. Like Missouri, almost snakes and poison. Like the Pharisees weren't serious enough the Pharisees weren't serious enough the Pharisees weren't serious enough about the law. So So I grew up in this about the law. So So I grew up in this about the law. So So I grew up in this strange house where, you know, at any strange house where, you know, at any strange house where, you know, at any moment dad could explode, but you're not moment dad could explode, but you're not moment dad could explode, but you're not allowed to listen to secular music or allowed to listen to secular music or allowed to listen to secular music or watch rated R movies. And then And then, watch rated R movies. And then And then, watch rated R movies. And then And then, of course, mom, when she was winning of course, mom, when she was winning of course, mom, when she was winning against dad, would drag us to church on against dad, would drag us to church on against dad, would drag us to church on Sundays.

Sundays. Sundays. Huh. Huh. Huh. Huh. Did that anger Huh. Did that anger Huh. Did that anger How did that shape you? You know, it's How did that shape you? You know, it's How did that shape you? You know, it's interesting. I think a lot of the interesting. I think a lot of the interesting. I think a lot of the I think it I think it significantly I think it I think it significantly I think it I think it significantly shaped me, and I wouldn't even know the shaped me, and I wouldn't even know the shaped me, and I wouldn't even know the ways it was affecting me, probably until ways it was affecting me, probably until ways it was affecting me, probably until I was in my late 30s, early 40s, that I was in my late 30s, early 40s, that I was in my late 30s, early 40s, that that some of the things that were my that some of the things that were my that some of the things that were my strengths and certainly some of the strengths and certainly some of the strengths and certainly some of the things that were my weaknesses were born things that were my weaknesses were born things that were my weaknesses were born of that backstory. Um, but but if I'm of that backstory. Um, but but if I'm of that backstory. Um, but but if I'm looking at it retrospectively, looking at it retrospectively, looking at it retrospectively, I think I saw the worst of the world and I think I saw the worst of the world and I think I saw the worst of the world and the worst of the church in my house. the worst of the church in my house. the worst of the church in my house. Like to me, they became in a deep way, Like to me, they became in a deep way, Like to me, they became in a deep way, this These are how these two stories this These are how these two stories this These are how these two stories end. And And I don't want either one of end. And And I don't want either one of end. And And I don't want either one of these stories. these stories. these stories. Um, and that might have made me the um Um, and that might have made me the um Um, and that might have made me the um observer I was, especially early on in observer I was, especially early on in observer I was, especially early on in church. church. church. Um, like I was hypersensitive Um, like I was hypersensitive Um, like I was hypersensitive to where guys wouldn't preach grace. I to where guys wouldn't preach grace. I to where guys wouldn't preach grace. I was um was um was um easily frustrated easily frustrated easily frustrated uh by worldliness uh by worldliness uh by worldliness uh in my Christian friends. I was Those uh in my Christian friends. I was Those uh in my Christian friends. I was Those things started shaping me early on, but things started shaping me early on, but things started shaping me early on, but I didn't understand, oh, you know where I didn't understand, oh, you know where I didn't understand, oh, you know where I got this? Because I see in my dad the I got this? Because I see in my dad the I got this? Because I see in my dad the end result of worldliness, and I see in end result of worldliness, and I see in end result of worldliness, and I see in my mom the end result of legalism and my mom the end result of legalism and my mom the end result of legalism and rigidity. Um, but man, that like I said, rigidity. Um, but man, that like I said, rigidity. Um, but man, that like I said, I was close to 40 before I could have I was close to 40 before I could have I was close to 40 before I could have any kind of concept of that.

any kind of concept of that. any kind of concept of that. Yeah, I was going to say, to the extent Yeah, I was going to say, to the extent Yeah, I was going to say, to the extent that you're comfortable, do you want to that you're comfortable, do you want to that you're comfortable, do you want to go a little deeper? Your late 30s and go a little deeper? Your late 30s and go a little deeper? Your late 30s and early 40s, I just find are seminal early 40s, I just find are seminal early 40s, I just find are seminal seminal years. Yeah, they really are. seminal years. Yeah, they really are. seminal years. Yeah, they really are. You learn so much about yourself. That You learn so much about yourself. That You learn so much about yourself. That was the time of my burnout. The time of was the time of my burnout. The time of was the time of my burnout. The time of my big my big my big 180. Um, you know, I'm recognizable. I 180. Um, you know, I'm recognizable. I 180. Um, you know, I'm recognizable. I mean, people who knew me in my 30s, 20 mean, people who knew me in my 30s, 20 mean, people who knew me in my 30s, 20 years ago, would see me today and go, years ago, would see me today and go, years ago, would see me today and go, "Yeah, it seems like the same guy, only "Yeah, it seems like the same guy, only "Yeah, it seems like the same guy, only you're nicer Yeah. and less explosive, you're nicer Yeah. and less explosive, you're nicer Yeah. and less explosive, and maybe a little more reserved." Uh, and maybe a little more reserved." Uh, and maybe a little more reserved." Uh, that kind of thing. But, what did you that kind of thing. But, what did you that kind of thing. But, what did you learn about yourself, and you know, learn about yourself, and you know, learn about yourself, and you know, particularly as it related to your particularly as it related to your particularly as it related to your childhood, what did you see in yourself childhood, what did you see in yourself childhood, what did you see in yourself by the time you're in your late 30s, by the time you're in your late 30s, by the time you're in your late 30s, early 40s? early 40s? early 40s? Yeah. Well, I Yeah. Well, I Yeah. Well, I like like a lot of guys, I I hit the like like a lot of guys, I I hit the like like a lot of guys, I I hit the wall. Um, and the only way I know to wall. Um, and the only way I know to wall. Um, and the only way I know to explain it, the only language I have to explain it, the only language I have to explain it, the only language I have to understand it, is it just stopped understand it, is it just stopped understand it, is it just stopped working. working. working. Um, I I found in me a low-grade Um, I I found in me a low-grade Um, I I found in me a low-grade agitation. So, if if like if agitation. So, if if like if agitation. So, if if like if Dude. like sinning against people with Dude. like sinning against people with Dude. like sinning against people with verbal lashing, and what's you know, I I verbal lashing, and what's you know, I I verbal lashing, and what's you know, I I don't know if it's abuse or whatever, is don't know if it's abuse or whatever, is don't know if it's abuse or whatever, is an eight. I was like always humming at an eight. I was like always humming at an eight. I was like always humming at about a six. Mhm. And I could feel it about a six. Mhm. And I could feel it about a six. Mhm. And I could feel it was happening. And I it scared me. Um, was happening. And I it scared me. Um, was happening. And I it scared me. Um, and I didn't understand it wasn't tied and I didn't understand it wasn't tied and I didn't understand it wasn't tied to how well the church was doing, it to how well the church was doing, it to how well the church was doing, it wasn't tied to how much sex I was wasn't tied to how much sex I was wasn't tied to how much sex I was having, it wasn't tied to how much money having, it wasn't tied to how much money having, it wasn't tied to how much money I had.

I had. I had. Um, like like I couldn't I kept trying Um, like like I couldn't I kept trying Um, like like I couldn't I kept trying to like where where is this where's this to like where where is this where's this to like where where is this where's this coming from? Then I couldn't find it, coming from? Then I couldn't find it, coming from? Then I couldn't find it, and uh, about that time I was sitting in and uh, about that time I was sitting in and uh, about that time I was sitting in this meeting with the guy at the church this meeting with the guy at the church this meeting with the guy at the church who was who was who was I mean, he was I I don't know that I've I mean, he was I I don't know that I've I mean, he was I I don't know that I've ever seen a man melt like this. It's ever seen a man melt like this. It's ever seen a man melt like this. It's tears and snot. He was going through a tears and snot. He was going through a tears and snot. He was going through a really painful ordeal, and I caught really painful ordeal, and I caught really painful ordeal, and I caught myself not being in the room with him at myself not being in the room with him at myself not being in the room with him at all. Um, I I was feeling nothing. all. Um, I I was feeling nothing. all. Um, I I was feeling nothing. Um, in fact, in my head I was running Um, in fact, in my head I was running Um, in fact, in my head I was running through our processes to figure out who through our processes to figure out who through our processes to figure out who to hand this man to. Like, do I send him to hand this man to. Like, do I send him to hand this man to. Like, do I send him to Jason in recovery? Do I got to get to Jason in recovery? Do I got to get to Jason in recovery? Do I got to get him over here, uh, to Trevor and groups? him over here, uh, to Trevor and groups? him over here, uh, to Trevor and groups? Like, how do I get him where someone can Like, how do I get him where someone can Like, how do I get him where someone can help him? And I caught myself in the help him? And I caught myself in the help him? And I caught myself in the moment, and I realized, "Hey, I'm sick. moment, and I realized, "Hey, I'm sick. moment, and I realized, "Hey, I'm sick. I don't I don't know This This is going I don't I don't know This This is going I don't I don't know This This is going to be bad." And this was in an era where to be bad." And this was in an era where to be bad." And this was in an era where a lot of my friends were falling. Uh a lot of my friends were falling. Uh a lot of my friends were falling. Uh they were disqualifying themselves, they they were disqualifying themselves, they they were disqualifying themselves, they were public. If I said their names, were public. If I said their names, were public. If I said their names, almost everybody listening would know almost everybody listening would know almost everybody listening would know it. And it had just been a string of it. And it had just been a string of it. And it had just been a string of them. So, I was already hyper-sensitive them. So, I was already hyper-sensitive them. So, I was already hyper-sensitive because I knew these men, and and they because I knew these men, and and they because I knew these men, and and they had And so, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, is had And so, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, is had And so, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, is this what's happening to me? Am I just this what's happening to me? Am I just this what's happening to me? Am I just about to blow up my life?" Uh and so, I about to blow up my life?" Uh and so, I about to blow up my life?" Uh and so, I made a call to a trusted friend who's made a call to a trusted friend who's made a call to a trusted friend who's who gave me the number of a counselor.

who gave me the number of a counselor. who gave me the number of a counselor. Uh and I went and did my first Uh and I went and did my first Uh and I went and did my first intensive. Um and it was one of the more intensive. Um and it was one of the more intensive. Um and it was one of the more discombobulating discombobulating discombobulating 4 days of my life. I don't I don't have 4 days of my life. I don't I don't have 4 days of my life. I don't I don't have another word. The most discombobulating another word. The most discombobulating another word. The most discombobulating 4 days of my life where I began to 4 days of my life where I began to 4 days of my life where I began to figure out um kind of this projected figure out um kind of this projected figure out um kind of this projected image of myself that I've been living image of myself that I've been living image of myself that I've been living out of nearly my whole life in order to out of nearly my whole life in order to out of nearly my whole life in order to survive. survive. survive. And um and that that guy That guy needed And um and that that guy That guy needed And um and that that guy That guy needed to I don't know if he needed to die, but to I don't know if he needed to die, but to I don't know if he needed to die, but he certainly needed to be integrated. he certainly needed to be integrated. he certainly needed to be integrated. And I needed to go back to And I needed to go back to And I needed to go back to I mean, I I was a I mean, I I was a I mean, I I was a Like, I'm I'm just an achiever and a Like, I'm I'm just an achiever and a Like, I'm I'm just an achiever and a driver, and all of that is tied to just driver, and all of that is tied to just driver, and all of that is tied to just really simple things that I learned in really simple things that I learned in really simple things that I learned in my childhood that I had better do if I'm my childhood that I had better do if I'm my childhood that I had better do if I'm going to navigate this space that that I going to navigate this space that that I going to navigate this space that that I was born into. Uh and that it served me was born into. Uh and that it served me was born into. Uh and that it served me exceptionally well in life, not just in exceptionally well in life, not just in exceptionally well in life, not just in the church world, but in all of life. Um the church world, but in all of life. Um the church world, but in all of life. Um and and so, then it was like a full year and and so, then it was like a full year and and so, then it was like a full year of Who am I? What What's What's driving of Who am I? What What's What's driving of Who am I? What What's What's driving this emotion and this action right now?

this emotion and this action right now? this emotion and this action right now? Why is this bothering me the way it is? Why is this bothering me the way it is? Why is this bothering me the way it is? Why do I feel disrespected by this? This Why do I feel disrespected by this? This Why do I feel disrespected by this? This isn't personal. This is an idea isn't personal. This is an idea isn't personal. This is an idea conversation. And and then the unwinding conversation. And and then the unwinding conversation. And and then the unwinding of all that. And then, honestly, I of all that. And then, honestly, I of all that. And then, honestly, I needed to mourn some things I had never needed to mourn some things I had never needed to mourn some things I had never mourned. Uh I needed to be okay mourned. Uh I needed to be okay mourned. Uh I needed to be okay not protecting myself with theology. not protecting myself with theology. not protecting myself with theology. I needed to mourn and grieve that I needed to mourn and grieve that I needed to mourn and grieve that certain things in my life had happened certain things in my life had happened certain things in my life had happened and occurred and that it was really sad and occurred and that it was really sad and occurred and that it was really sad and what I believed about it and what I believed about it and what I believed about it theologically was true. But but I still theologically was true. But but I still theologically was true. But but I still could mourn it and I could still grieve could mourn it and I could still grieve could mourn it and I could still grieve it. it. it. And so that was that was my journey And so that was that was my journey And so that was that was my journey really really really gosh, I guess up until today still kind gosh, I guess up until today still kind gosh, I guess up until today still kind of trying to walk in that and of trying to walk in that and of trying to walk in that and untether some of that and untether some of that and untether some of that and and rest in who God says I am. and rest in who God says I am. and rest in who God says I am. Wow. What what did you have to mourn? Wow. What what did you have to mourn? Wow. What what did you have to mourn? That was part of my journey too and That was part of my journey too and That was part of my journey too and one of my mentors Terry Wardle who was one of my mentors Terry Wardle who was one of my mentors Terry Wardle who was on the show a few years ago. on the show a few years ago. on the show a few years ago. He said ministry is a series of He said ministry is a series of He said ministry is a series of ungrieved losses and life is a series of ungrieved losses and life is a series of ungrieved losses and life is a series of ungrieved losses. And I spent about a ungrieved losses. And I spent about a ungrieved losses. And I spent about a month either sleeping or sobbing. That month either sleeping or sobbing. That month either sleeping or sobbing. That was probably when I was 40 41.

was probably when I was 40 41. was probably when I was 40 41. Sleeping or sobbing August of 2006. It Sleeping or sobbing August of 2006. It Sleeping or sobbing August of 2006. It was just awful. was just awful. was just awful. Um what about you? What what what was Um what about you? What what what was Um what about you? What what what was there to mourn? Yeah. So let me there to mourn? Yeah. So let me there to mourn? Yeah. So let me maybe I'll try to tell a story and and maybe I'll try to tell a story and and maybe I'll try to tell a story and and that will help and I certainly don't that will help and I certainly don't that will help and I certainly don't want to dishonor my father. He I really want to dishonor my father. He I really want to dishonor my father. He I really don't intend to do that. My dad was don't intend to do that. My dad was don't intend to do that. My dad was broken in a way broken in a way broken in a way um that he didn't really have the um that he didn't really have the um that he didn't really have the capacity capacity capacity to love me like say I love my son. to love me like say I love my son. to love me like say I love my son. Right. Right. Right. Um and so I I just grew up in a a really Um and so I I just grew up in a a really Um and so I I just grew up in a a really cold harsh environment cold harsh environment cold harsh environment and and and and that that was the only one I knew. and that that was the only one I knew. and that that was the only one I knew. And so what I had started striving for And so what I had started striving for And so what I had started striving for early in life was to try to get him to early in life was to try to get him to early in life was to try to get him to see me. see me. see me. Whether that was in athletics or grades Whether that was in athletics or grades Whether that was in athletics or grades or but the more I did those things the or but the more I did those things the or but the more I did those things the more he felt like he couldn't relate to more he felt like he couldn't relate to more he felt like he couldn't relate to me and the more distance grew. Wow. And me and the more distance grew. Wow. And me and the more distance grew. Wow. And I had never I had never really mourned I had never I had never really mourned I had never I had never really mourned that. You know, I rightly said it that. You know, I rightly said it that. You know, I rightly said it correctly said, he was doing the best he correctly said, he was doing the best he correctly said, he was doing the best he could. He was from a far worse situation could. He was from a far worse situation could. He was from a far worse situation than the one I was in and that's true.

than the one I was in and that's true. than the one I was in and that's true. And and you know, I'd forgiven him and And and you know, I'd forgiven him and And and you know, I'd forgiven him and that was true, but I never mourned it. that was true, but I never mourned it. that was true, but I never mourned it. I and I really don't know that I'd have I and I really don't know that I'd have I and I really don't know that I'd have been able to if I hadn't had my own son. been able to if I hadn't had my own son. been able to if I hadn't had my own son. And my own son who I have deep affection And my own son who I have deep affection And my own son who I have deep affection for is a great friend and a great kid for is a great friend and a great kid for is a great friend and a great kid and and and and that was a huge one for me. To to and that was a huge one for me. To to and that was a huge one for me. To to just mourn that that no one ever saw in just mourn that that no one ever saw in just mourn that that no one ever saw in me. Like there were times where there me. Like there were times where there me. Like there were times where there were really hard things I haven't were really hard things I haven't were really hard things I haven't anybody to go talk to about it. And so I anybody to go talk to about it. And so I anybody to go talk to about it. And so I just had to absorb it. just had to absorb it. just had to absorb it. And so there's a billion stories like And so there's a billion stories like And so there's a billion stories like that I could get into, but that that was that I could get into, but that that was that I could get into, but that that was the biggest thing that I could not the biggest thing that I could not the biggest thing that I could not I could not seem to get the approval or I could not seem to get the approval or I could not seem to get the approval or affection from my dad that I craved as a affection from my dad that I craved as a affection from my dad that I craved as a little boy and and maybe still craved as little boy and and maybe still craved as little boy and and maybe still craved as a young man. And a young man. And a young man. And and then what's wild is men have got a and then what's wild is men have got a and then what's wild is men have got a great relationship with my dad now. They great relationship with my dad now. They great relationship with my dad now. They were actually at the church for years. were actually at the church for years. were actually at the church for years. They were part of one of our old They were part of one of our old They were part of one of our old campuses now and I I mean we just went campuses now and I I mean we just went campuses now and I I mean we just went over there for Easter and hung out for over there for Easter and hung out for over there for Easter and hung out for several hours and it was incredible. He several hours and it was incredible. He several hours and it was incredible. He couldn't be more proud of me. He couldn't be more proud of me. He couldn't be more proud of me. He couldn't can't even talk to me without couldn't can't even talk to me without couldn't can't even talk to me without tearing up. He's so proud of me. He tearing up. He's so proud of me. He tearing up. He's so proud of me. He loves me so much. He would love to have loves me so much. He would love to have loves me so much. He would love to have a do-over.

a do-over. a do-over. And so I'm trying he's you know, 80 and And so I'm trying he's you know, 80 and And so I'm trying he's you know, 80 and got COPD advanced broke his hip earlier got COPD advanced broke his hip earlier got COPD advanced broke his hip earlier this year. So I'm just trying to get this year. So I'm just trying to get this year. So I'm just trying to get near him as often as I can. It's been near him as often as I can. It's been near him as often as I can. It's been really healing and really beautiful. really healing and really beautiful. really healing and really beautiful. I'll bet it has been and and thank you I'll bet it has been and and thank you I'll bet it has been and and thank you for sharing that Matt. I appreciate it. for sharing that Matt. I appreciate it. for sharing that Matt. I appreciate it. I can relate to it. Not with the anger. I can relate to it. Not with the anger. I can relate to it. Not with the anger. For my case it was like an immigrant dad For my case it was like an immigrant dad For my case it was like an immigrant dad who just worked a lot trying to put who just worked a lot trying to put who just worked a lot trying to put bread on the table and that was lonely bread on the table and that was lonely bread on the table and that was lonely as a kid growing up. To what extent do you think looking back To what extent do you think looking back on that now on that now on that now that has informed the kind of that has informed the kind of that has informed the kind of communicator preacher leader that you communicator preacher leader that you communicator preacher leader that you became. became. became. Oh man, that's a great question, Carey. Oh man, that's a great question, Carey. Oh man, that's a great question, Carey. I don't know that I've ever thought I don't know that I've ever thought I don't know that I've ever thought about how that might have about how that might have about how that might have shaped my communication style. shaped my communication style. shaped my communication style. Um Yeah, I I think probably the reason Yeah, I I think probably the reason grace has been so beautiful to me grace has been so beautiful to me grace has been so beautiful to me and why I I I can feel in me and why I I I can feel in me and why I I I can feel in me when when I feel like it's absent. Gosh, when when I feel like it's absent. Gosh, when when I feel like it's absent. Gosh, even you know, the the first time even even you know, the the first time even even you know, the the first time even like broke out onto the scene or however like broke out onto the scene or however like broke out onto the scene or however we want to talk about that was when we want to talk about that was when we want to talk about that was when uh Desiring God posted my Jesus wants uh Desiring God posted my Jesus wants uh Desiring God posted my Jesus wants the rose clip. And so that that's a the rose clip. And so that that's a the rose clip. And so that that's a story from college where I was just story from college where I was just story from college where I was just incensed incensed incensed that someone would use that illustration that someone would use that illustration that someone would use that illustration when the whole point of the gospel is when the whole point of the gospel is when the whole point of the gospel is that Jesus is the one that wants the that Jesus is the one that wants the that Jesus is the one that wants the broken busted touched too many times broken busted touched too many times broken busted touched too many times rose. Right.

rose. Right. rose. Right. Um And And so I think my own heart had Um And And so I think my own heart had Um And And so I think my own heart had craved intimacy and connection so craved intimacy and connection so craved intimacy and connection so deeply. And that was the promise of the deeply. And that was the promise of the deeply. And that was the promise of the gospel. gospel. gospel. That That That that I want to make sure that even if that I want to make sure that even if that I want to make sure that even if I'm covering one of the more difficult I'm covering one of the more difficult I'm covering one of the more difficult subjects, which I really like to cover subjects, which I really like to cover subjects, which I really like to cover difficult subjects, difficult subjects, difficult subjects, that I made sure we understood and saw that I made sure we understood and saw that I made sure we understood and saw and sensed and sensed and sensed um the grace of God and His kindness um the grace of God and His kindness um the grace of God and His kindness towards us in Jesus. towards us in Jesus. towards us in Jesus. Hm. Hm. Hm. Can you, for those who may not remember Can you, for those who may not remember Can you, for those who may not remember that, we have a lot of young listeners, that, we have a lot of young listeners, that, we have a lot of young listeners, just remind everybody what the rose just remind everybody what the rose just remind everybody what the rose illustration was? illustration was? illustration was? I remember I forget I forget that I'm I remember I forget I forget that I'm I remember I forget I forget that I'm Wasn't it like you know, if Wasn't it like you know, if Wasn't it like you know, if Chandler now. Chandler now. Chandler now. Is it if you've slept around or that Is it if you've slept around or that Is it if you've slept around or that kind of thing? kind of thing? kind of thing? True Love Waits rally and I'd brought a True Love Waits rally and I'd brought a True Love Waits rally and I'd brought a girl from college. girl from college. girl from college. Um I was just with a band. I wasn't Um I was just with a band. I wasn't Um I was just with a band. I wasn't speaking or anything. I I was friends speaking or anything. I I was friends speaking or anything. I I was friends with the guy that was playing and so I with the guy that was playing and so I with the guy that was playing and so I brought her because I wanted her to meet brought her because I wanted her to meet brought her because I wanted her to meet Robbie C. And um Robbie C. And um Robbie C. And um And this guy is his illustration. He And this guy is his illustration. He And this guy is his illustration. He held up this rose and smelled and talked held up this rose and smelled and talked held up this rose and smelled and talked about how awesome it was. Then he threw about how awesome it was. Then he threw about how awesome it was. Then he threw it in the crowd and he asked, "You know, it in the crowd and he asked, "You know, it in the crowd and he asked, "You know, a thousand kids, I want everybody to a thousand kids, I want everybody to a thousand kids, I want everybody to smell this, so pass it around the room."

smell this, so pass it around the room." smell this, so pass it around the room." And they passed it around the room. And they passed it around the room. And they passed it around the room. Um and then um he gets it back and of Um and then um he gets it back and of Um and then um he gets it back and of course, man, like the petals are all course, man, like the petals are all course, man, like the petals are all jacked up, it's stem's broken. And his jacked up, it's stem's broken. And his jacked up, it's stem's broken. And his like crescendo was like to hold it up like crescendo was like to hold it up like crescendo was like to hold it up and be like, "Now, who would want this and be like, "Now, who would want this and be like, "Now, who would want this rose?" And here I am with the friend rose?" And here I am with the friend rose?" And here I am with the friend who's already got a child, she's in who's already got a child, she's in who's already got a child, she's in college, right, but never been married, college, right, but never been married, college, right, but never been married, already got a child. And I'm trying to already got a child. And I'm trying to already got a child. And I'm trying to share the gospel with her. And this is share the gospel with her. And this is share the gospel with her. And this is your illustration? And I just remember your illustration? And I just remember your illustration? And I just remember like wanting to fight him. like wanting to fight him. like wanting to fight him. Um I mean, cuz I'm like, "Oh my gosh, Um I mean, cuz I'm like, "Oh my gosh, Um I mean, cuz I'm like, "Oh my gosh, you missed it. You got all You got a you missed it. You got all You got a you missed it. You got all You got a thousand kids out here and you missed thousand kids out here and you missed thousand kids out here and you missed it." And I just remember being incensed it." And I just remember being incensed it." And I just remember being incensed by it. And so that was the by it. And so that was the by it. And so that was the that that's what I mean where that stuff that that's what I mean where that stuff that that's what I mean where that stuff happens. I can still, I mean, as a happens. I can still, I mean, as a happens. I can still, I mean, as a 50-year-old man, 50-year-old man, 50-year-old man, feel like deeply frustrated and angry feel like deeply frustrated and angry feel like deeply frustrated and angry that the gospel's being butchered by that the gospel's being butchered by that the gospel's being butchered by someone where it should be like a a someone where it should be like a a someone where it should be like a a medicine to the soul, it becomes a club medicine to the soul, it becomes a club medicine to the soul, it becomes a club of shame. Um and I I can like I still of shame. Um and I I can like I still of shame. Um and I I can like I still get provoked by it.

get provoked by it. get provoked by it. So the wall happened almost a decade ago So the wall happened almost a decade ago So the wall happened almost a decade ago if I've got my timing right in your if I've got my timing right in your if I've got my timing right in your life. life. life. What's different now, Matt, and what What's different now, Matt, and what What's different now, Matt, and what continues to change? continues to change? continues to change? Oh man, I Oh man, I Oh man, I gosh, I I feel more steady, more quiet gosh, I I feel more steady, more quiet gosh, I I feel more steady, more quiet internally. internally. internally. Um Um Um like I I can stop, I can rest, I can say like I I can stop, I can rest, I can say like I I can stop, I can rest, I can say no. no. no. Um I can differentiate myself in Um I can differentiate myself in Um I can differentiate myself in leadership rooms in a way that's leadership rooms in a way that's leadership rooms in a way that's healthy. Um I can defer healthy. Um I can defer healthy. Um I can defer to to a leadership room that's healthy. to to a leadership room that's healthy. to to a leadership room that's healthy. And um And um And um no, I don't think any of those things no, I don't think any of those things no, I don't think any of those things were happening the way they are now were happening the way they are now were happening the way they are now before I hit that wall. before I hit that wall. before I hit that wall. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, it's Yeah. Yeah, and you know, it's Yeah. Yeah, and you know, it's interesting. Um interesting. Um interesting. Um you know, similar stage of life for the you know, similar stage of life for the you know, similar stage of life for the two of us two of us two of us where we hit the wall, but you said where we hit the wall, but you said where we hit the wall, but you said something in passing that I just want to something in passing that I just want to something in passing that I just want to underscore before we move on, Matt, but underscore before we move on, Matt, but underscore before we move on, Matt, but I thought it was really I thought it was really I thought it was really insightful. insightful. insightful. There were a lot, you know, synonymous There were a lot, you know, synonymous There were a lot, you know, synonymous with you hitting the wall, a lot of with you hitting the wall, a lot of with you hitting the wall, a lot of people falling out of grace, out of people falling out of grace, out of people falling out of grace, out of ministry because of moral failure.

ministry because of moral failure. ministry because of moral failure. You said you felt dead. You're with this You said you felt dead. You're with this You said you felt dead. You're with this guy who's fallen apart like snot and guy who's fallen apart like snot and guy who's fallen apart like snot and tears everywhere and you feel nothing. tears everywhere and you feel nothing. tears everywhere and you feel nothing. I'm familiar with that feeling. That's I'm familiar with that feeling. That's I'm familiar with that feeling. That's where I was right around burnout. It's where I was right around burnout. It's where I was right around burnout. It's horrible, but you don't I mean, when horrible, but you don't I mean, when horrible, but you don't I mean, when you're dead inside, you're dead inside, you're dead inside, you're dead inside, you're dead inside, you're dead inside, right? Like there's no right? Like there's no right? Like there's no it's not like, "Oh, the feeling's over it's not like, "Oh, the feeling's over it's not like, "Oh, the feeling's over there. I'll just go walk into it." You there. I'll just go walk into it." You there. I'll just go walk into it." You can't do that. Well, it's a huge check can't do that. Well, it's a huge check can't do that. Well, it's a huge check engine light. If somebody's listening to engine light. If somebody's listening to engine light. If somebody's listening to this and that's where they are, you're this and that's where they are, you're this and that's where they are, you're you're not good. you're not good. you're not good. Um you're you're not good. You need to Um you're you're not good. You need to Um you're you're not good. You need to somehow pause or get some help or somehow pause or get some help or somehow pause or get some help or something's got to give or I mean, and something's got to give or I mean, and something's got to give or I mean, and I'm just saying I've been at I've been I'm just saying I've been at I've been I'm just saying I've been at I've been at this 30 years now or you will blow up at this 30 years now or you will blow up at this 30 years now or you will blow up your life and maybe shame the name of your life and maybe shame the name of your life and maybe shame the name of Jesus on your way out and it doesn't Jesus on your way out and it doesn't Jesus on your way out and it doesn't have to be that way. have to be that way. have to be that way. Yeah, and and even if nothing, you know, Yeah, and and even if nothing, you know, Yeah, and and even if nothing, you know, headline-worthy happens, I guess that's headline-worthy happens, I guess that's headline-worthy happens, I guess that's theoretically possible. theoretically possible. theoretically possible. You're dead inside. Like what what's You're dead inside. Like what what's You're dead inside. Like what what's what's I mean, God loves us all. I get what's I mean, God loves us all. I get what's I mean, God loves us all. I get it, but it, but it, but you know, a heart that beats is is you know, a heart that beats is is you know, a heart that beats is is probably better in a leader than than probably better in a leader than than probably better in a leader than than one that's dead. I'm going to say it.

one that's dead. I'm going to say it. one that's dead. I'm going to say it. I'm going to say it. Yeah. Well, good I'm going to say it. Yeah. Well, good I'm going to say it. Yeah. Well, good for you for for and by the grace of God, for you for for and by the grace of God, for you for for and by the grace of God, you saw the warning signs. You you went you saw the warning signs. You you went you saw the warning signs. You you went and got some help and you're in a and got some help and you're in a and got some help and you're in a different place. different place. different place. Yeah, the Lord was really merciful. Wow. Yeah, the Lord was really merciful. Wow. Yeah, the Lord was really merciful. Wow. With me, too. With me, too. And he is. With me, too. With me, too. And he is. With me, too. With me, too. And he is. So, if you're there, uh this is the time So, if you're there, uh this is the time So, if you're there, uh this is the time to call a friend. This is the time to to call a friend. This is the time to to call a friend. This is the time to go, "I'm not okay." go, "I'm not okay." go, "I'm not okay." And uh and check into that. I want to go And uh and check into that. I want to go And uh and check into that. I want to go back a little bit to where we back a little bit to where we back a little bit to where we kind of picked up. So, you're, you know, kind of picked up. So, you're, you know, kind of picked up. So, you're, you know, involved with Acts 29, leading that involved with Acts 29, leading that involved with Acts 29, leading that church planting network. And it's easy church planting network. And it's easy church planting network. And it's easy to think of the Village Church as a to think of the Village Church as a to think of the Village Church as a church plant, but it wasn't, right? It church plant, but it wasn't, right? It church plant, but it wasn't, right? It wasn't. You took over an existing wasn't. You took over an existing wasn't. You took over an existing church. So, and and I wanted to pursue church. So, and and I wanted to pursue church. So, and and I wanted to pursue this because in many ways the Village this because in many ways the Village this because in many ways the Village Church is is church revitalization. Church is is church revitalization. Church is is church revitalization. Yeah, it is. If you think about it, Yeah, it is. If you think about it, Yeah, it is. If you think about it, there's about over 300,000 churches in there's about over 300,000 churches in there's about over 300,000 churches in America alone that probably could use America alone that probably could use America alone that probably could use some level of revitalization. some level of revitalization. some level of revitalization. So, if you can paint the picture of what So, if you can paint the picture of what So, if you can paint the picture of what what is now the Village Church was like what is now the Village Church was like what is now the Village Church was like when you arrived, and then some of your when you arrived, and then some of your when you arrived, and then some of your first moves to start to first moves to start to first moves to start to breathe life and reach people, etc., breathe life and reach people, etc., breathe life and reach people, etc., etc.

etc. etc. Yeah, so um the Village Church was Yeah, so um the Village Church was Yeah, so um the Village Church was Highland Village First Baptist Church. Highland Village First Baptist Church. Highland Village First Baptist Church. It was a It was a It was a kind of a janky Willow Creek Association kind of a janky Willow Creek Association kind of a janky Willow Creek Association church um where they were trying to do church um where they were trying to do church um where they were trying to do the stuff Willow was with without any of the stuff Willow was with without any of the stuff Willow was with without any of the talent that Willow had. Um and so the talent that Willow had. Um and so the talent that Willow had. Um and so they had fully embraced that philosophy, they had fully embraced that philosophy, they had fully embraced that philosophy, and the the pastor before me, I'm the and the the pastor before me, I'm the and the the pastor before me, I'm the third pastor of Highland Village First third pastor of Highland Village First third pastor of Highland Village First Baptist Church. Baptist Church. Baptist Church. And the the pastor before me um was in And the the pastor before me um was in And the the pastor before me um was in his mid-30s, a good man, a Jesus-loving, his mid-30s, a good man, a Jesus-loving, his mid-30s, a good man, a Jesus-loving, Bible-serious, biblically serious man. Bible-serious, biblically serious man. Bible-serious, biblically serious man. He was awesome. He was awesome. He was awesome. But he had some mental illness in his But he had some mental illness in his But he had some mental illness in his family family family that showed up in his 30s. Um and this that showed up in his 30s. Um and this that showed up in his 30s. Um and this put the church in a tailspin. put the church in a tailspin. put the church in a tailspin. Um and so what had been a Um and so what had been a Um and so what had been a um um um somewhat vibrant somewhat vibrant somewhat vibrant um 300-person church in the suburbs of um 300-person church in the suburbs of um 300-person church in the suburbs of Dallas uh was now um in a tailspin. And Dallas uh was now um in a tailspin. And Dallas uh was now um in a tailspin. And when churches start to die, then there when churches start to die, then there when churches start to die, then there starts being all sorts of infighting starts being all sorts of infighting starts being all sorts of infighting over resources.

over resources. over resources. And and so this was this was what the And and so this was this was what the And and so this was this was what the church was when when I arrived. church was when when I arrived. church was when when I arrived. Um and and it was there was a lot of Um and and it was there was a lot of Um and and it was there was a lot of infighting. There was infighting. There was infighting. There was um there was a a loss of hope. There was um there was a a loss of hope. There was um there was a a loss of hope. There was um nervousness about any risk because if um nervousness about any risk because if um nervousness about any risk because if one more person leaves, are we going to one more person leaves, are we going to one more person leaves, are we going to have to close the doors? And and that have to close the doors? And and that have to close the doors? And and that was uh Highland Village First Baptist was uh Highland Village First Baptist was uh Highland Village First Baptist Church when I got there. Very serious Church when I got there. Very serious Church when I got there. Very serious about missions. They they I I did not about missions. They they I I did not about missions. They they I I did not bring a love for global missions with bring a love for global missions with bring a love for global missions with me. They had it. They they very much me. They had it. They they very much me. They had it. They they very much wanted to see lost people become wanted to see lost people become wanted to see lost people become Christians. They were very serious about Christians. They were very serious about Christians. They were very serious about that. Uh and so those two things were that. Uh and so those two things were that. Uh and so those two things were present when I got there. They were present when I got there. They were present when I got there. They were serious about global missions and they serious about global missions and they serious about global missions and they desperately wanted to see their desperately wanted to see their desperately wanted to see their neighbors and co-workers come to know neighbors and co-workers come to know neighbors and co-workers come to know Jesus. So that was there. Um Jesus. So that was there. Um Jesus. So that was there. Um that just everything else seemed to be that just everything else seemed to be that just everything else seemed to be broken and they they couldn't seem to broken and they they couldn't seem to broken and they they couldn't seem to fix it. fix it. fix it. So what did you do? So what did you do? So what did you do? I mean that's a great question. Um the I mean that's a great question. Um the I mean that's a great question. Um the the first thing I did was I didn't want the first thing I did was I didn't want the first thing I did was I didn't want the job. Um and that was probably the the job. Um and that was probably the the job. Um and that was probably the best thing that could have happened best thing that could have happened best thing that could have happened because it allowed me to be super honest because it allowed me to be super honest because it allowed me to be super honest in the hiring process. And it's in the hiring process. And it's in the hiring process. And it's important for people to know who don't important for people to know who don't important for people to know who don't have the backstory. About 45 minutes have the backstory. About 45 minutes have the backstory. About 45 minutes from the village, I was doing a thing from the village, I was doing a thing from the village, I was doing a thing called Metro Bible Study for about 3,000 called Metro Bible Study for about 3,000 called Metro Bible Study for about 3,000 20-somethings. Uh young adult ministry.

20-somethings. Uh young adult ministry. 20-somethings. Uh young adult ministry. And so I had been preaching at that and And so I had been preaching at that and And so I had been preaching at that and uh I was based out of Dallas basically uh I was based out of Dallas basically uh I was based out of Dallas basically doing itinerant ministry. And um doing itinerant ministry. And um doing itinerant ministry. And um and so and so and so I think had I not been at Metro, it I think had I not been at Metro, it I think had I not been at Metro, it would have never happened because I was would have never happened because I was would have never happened because I was saying things. I was answering their saying things. I was answering their saying things. I was answering their questions in the hiring process in ways questions in the hiring process in ways questions in the hiring process in ways that I think they didn't like. that I think they didn't like. that I think they didn't like. But then I think they would come on But then I think they would come on But then I think they would come on Monday night and they would hear me Monday night and they would hear me Monday night and they would hear me preach for 50 minutes on Romans 8 to a preach for 50 minutes on Romans 8 to a preach for 50 minutes on Romans 8 to a room full of 3,000 20-somethings who room full of 3,000 20-somethings who room full of 3,000 20-somethings who were responding passionately and were responding passionately and were responding passionately and powerfully and it was disorienting powerfully and it was disorienting powerfully and it was disorienting enough to them enough to them enough to them um to circle back around with me and ask um to circle back around with me and ask um to circle back around with me and ask for clarity. Um and so I was not a fit for clarity. Um and so I was not a fit for clarity. Um and so I was not a fit theologically. I was certainly not a fit theologically. I was certainly not a fit theologically. I was certainly not a fit philosophically. I don't even know how philosophically. I don't even know how philosophically. I don't even know how to do the secret sensitive thing. I know to do the secret sensitive thing. I know to do the secret sensitive thing. I know how to be aware that unbelievers are how to be aware that unbelievers are how to be aware that unbelievers are present. But I'm not gifted to, you present. But I'm not gifted to, you present. But I'm not gifted to, you know, create an experience for know, create an experience for know, create an experience for unbelievers. Nor do I believe unbelievers. Nor do I believe unbelievers. Nor do I believe theologically that's what the church theologically that's what the church theologically that's what the church should be. Um but should be. Um but should be. Um but because of Metro and because I was because of Metro and because I was because of Metro and because I was saying, "Hey, no, I I don't believe saying, "Hey, no, I I don't believe saying, "Hey, no, I I don't believe this." I this." I this." I even at one point I left a meeting and I even at one point I left a meeting and I even at one point I left a meeting and I told my wife I was like, "Crap, we're told my wife I was like, "Crap, we're told my wife I was like, "Crap, we're going to get this job." And so I asked going to get this job." And so I asked going to get this job." And so I asked them I asked them to set up like a a Q&A them I asked them to set up like a a Q&A them I asked them to set up like a a Q&A on a Sunday night with the body. And I on a Sunday night with the body. And I on a Sunday night with the body. And I thought for sure that I'm not going to thought for sure that I'm not going to thought for sure that I'm not going to get this job. So I'll never forget my get this job. So I'll never forget my get this job. So I'll never forget my first question out of the gate, Ron first question out of the gate, Ron first question out of the gate, Ron Pecunia, still at the church. Just saw Pecunia, still at the church. Just saw Pecunia, still at the church. Just saw his son who's a Jesus-loving

his son who's a Jesus-loving his son who's a Jesus-loving 20-something right now. 20-something right now. 20-something right now. His first question out of the gate was, His first question out of the gate was, His first question out of the gate was, "Everybody buys a house knowing what "Everybody buys a house knowing what "Everybody buys a house knowing what they're going to change about that house they're going to change about that house they're going to change about that house as soon as as soon as they move in. What as soon as as soon as they move in. What as soon as as soon as they move in. What what what are those things here?" And I what what are those things here?" And I what what are those things here?" And I just thought, "Oh, this is jackpot. just thought, "Oh, this is jackpot. just thought, "Oh, this is jackpot. There's no way I'm getting this job now. There's no way I'm getting this job now. There's no way I'm getting this job now. I'm going to answer." And so I was like, I'm going to answer." And so I was like, I'm going to answer." And so I was like, "I don't understand the system of "I don't understand the system of "I don't understand the system of government. I'm confused about, you government. I'm confused about, you government. I'm confused about, you know," I just listed off three or four know," I just listed off three or four know," I just listed off three or four things. And they didn't bat an eye. things. And they didn't bat an eye. things. And they didn't bat an eye. They they just asked because what it They they just asked because what it They they just asked because what it started happening is the search team was started happening is the search team was started happening is the search team was like, "Hey, we're talking to this kid like, "Hey, we're talking to this kid like, "Hey, we're talking to this kid that's doing Metro." And so people were that's doing Metro." And so people were that's doing Metro." And so people were driving out and again they were driving out and again they were driving out and again they were experiencing this thing that didn't fit experiencing this thing that didn't fit experiencing this thing that didn't fit with what they had been taught. So like with what they had been taught. So like with what they had been taught. So like a little phrase that they had been using a little phrase that they had been using a little phrase that they had been using and I heard it a thousand times year one and I heard it a thousand times year one and I heard it a thousand times year one that worship is the enemy of evangelism. that worship is the enemy of evangelism. that worship is the enemy of evangelism. And it was this idea that if there was And it was this idea that if there was And it was this idea that if there was some kind of spontaneous people raising some kind of spontaneous people raising some kind of spontaneous people raising their hands, that there was zeal in their hands, that there was zeal in their hands, that there was zeal in worship, that somehow lost people would worship, that somehow lost people would worship, that somehow lost people would think that was weird and and never come think that was weird and and never come think that was weird and and never come back. And and yet here they are at Metro back. And and yet here they are at Metro back. And and yet here they are at Metro and it's completely young, and they're and it's completely young, and they're and it's completely young, and they're in their 50s. They're my age now. You in their 50s. They're my age now. You in their 50s. They're my age now. You know, that was the young people at the know, that was the young people at the know, that was the young people at the church when I got there were my age now.

church when I got there were my age now. church when I got there were my age now. And um and it was just disorienting to And um and it was just disorienting to And um and it was just disorienting to them. them. them. And so after that night, I thought I was And so after that night, I thought I was And so after that night, I thought I was going to be at the, you know, Highland going to be at the, you know, Highland going to be at the, you know, Highland Village First Baptist Church for 3 years Village First Baptist Church for 3 years Village First Baptist Church for 3 years to learn some stuff that the Lord wanted to learn some stuff that the Lord wanted to learn some stuff that the Lord wanted to show me before I went and did what I to show me before I went and did what I to show me before I went and did what I really wanted to do. really wanted to do. really wanted to do. Um but when I got there, I had already Um but when I got there, I had already Um but when I got there, I had already verbally said to the whole room, this is verbally said to the whole room, this is verbally said to the whole room, this is what I want to change. And then there what I want to change. And then there what I want to change. And then there were two men in particular, Dell Steel were two men in particular, Dell Steel were two men in particular, Dell Steel and Tiff Cothran. And Dell and Steel and Tiff Cothran. And Dell and Steel and Tiff Cothran. And Dell and Steel were were were they were those guys that every church they were those guys that every church they were those guys that every church has. has. has. That when these guys say, this is what That when these guys say, this is what That when these guys say, this is what we should do, that's what's going to we should do, that's what's going to we should do, that's what's going to happen. Right. And so man, I just I am I happen. Right. And so man, I just I am I happen. Right. And so man, I just I am I pulled Dell and Tiff in and pleaded with pulled Dell and Tiff in and pleaded with pulled Dell and Tiff in and pleaded with them week one, I need you. I need you to them week one, I need you. I need you to them week one, I need you. I need you to help me. I need your gifts. I need your help me. I need your gifts. I need your help me. I need your gifts. I need your experience. I was 28. experience. I was 28. experience. I was 28. And so I just said, I'm 28. This is my And so I just said, I'm 28. This is my And so I just said, I'm 28. This is my first full-time pastorate. Here's what I first full-time pastorate. Here's what I first full-time pastorate. Here's what I want to see. I want to see young men want to see. I want to see young men want to see. I want to see young men come to know and love Jesus. I want to come to know and love Jesus. I want to come to know and love Jesus. I want to preach the Bible and make disciples.

preach the Bible and make disciples. preach the Bible and make disciples. Can you help me do that? Can you help me do that? Can you help me do that? And then they became sounding boards for And then they became sounding boards for And then they became sounding boards for me. They they became guys that would me. They they became guys that would me. They they became guys that would show me where the landmines are. If you show me where the landmines are. If you show me where the landmines are. If you do that, you better go talk to John do that, you better go talk to John do that, you better go talk to John because if you don't talk to John first, because if you don't talk to John first, because if you don't talk to John first, he's going to take it like that. And he's going to take it like that. And he's going to take it like that. And they became guides for me. they became guides for me. they became guides for me. And then that circle of Dell and Tiff And then that circle of Dell and Tiff And then that circle of Dell and Tiff grew to Jerry Scheffler. And and I could grew to Jerry Scheffler. And and I could grew to Jerry Scheffler. And and I could just keep naming names. And I had this just keep naming names. And I had this just keep naming names. And I had this little group of men that were at the little group of men that were at the little group of men that were at the time in their 60s and 70s that man, if time in their 60s and 70s that man, if time in their 60s and 70s that man, if you you would not dare take a shot at me you you would not dare take a shot at me you you would not dare take a shot at me in those early years. Not only Not only in those early years. Not only Not only in those early years. Not only Not only were we growing like crazy, but Dell and were we growing like crazy, but Dell and were we growing like crazy, but Dell and Tiff, I was their guy. And that was a Tiff, I was their guy. And that was a Tiff, I was their guy. And that was a lot of cups of coffee and a lot of come lot of cups of coffee and a lot of come lot of cups of coffee and a lot of come to my house and what am I doing wrong? to my house and what am I doing wrong? to my house and what am I doing wrong? Help me understand. What Why is this Help me understand. What Why is this Help me understand. What Why is this frustrating the original 168? That was frustrating the original 168? That was frustrating the original 168? That was how we we talked about 168. Because how we we talked about 168. Because how we we talked about 168. Because that group in Metro, that 3,000 kids, I that group in Metro, that 3,000 kids, I that group in Metro, that 3,000 kids, I guess I'd call them kids, well, young guess I'd call them kids, well, young guess I'd call them kids, well, young adults. Yeah. Um, they, I mean, they adults. Yeah. Um, they, I mean, they adults. Yeah. Um, they, I mean, they started when they heard, I didn't started when they heard, I didn't started when they heard, I didn't announce from the stage I was going to announce from the stage I was going to announce from the stage I was going to this church. I just said this is my last this church. I just said this is my last this church. I just said this is my last semester, love you, thank you for semester, love you, thank you for semester, love you, thank you for being on this journey with me. And then, being on this journey with me. And then, being on this journey with me. And then, man, tons of them heard that I was over man, tons of them heard that I was over man, tons of them heard that I was over at this church, and then just flooded uh at this church, and then just flooded uh at this church, and then just flooded uh our sanctuary. We grew by a thousand a our sanctuary. We grew by a thousand a our sanctuary. We grew by a thousand a year for the first decade. Um, and it year for the first decade. Um, and it year for the first decade. Um, and it was Metro that started it.

was Metro that started it. was Metro that started it. But Dell and Tiff and me moving towards But Dell and Tiff and me moving towards But Dell and Tiff and me moving towards them and honoring the old while I was them and honoring the old while I was them and honoring the old while I was trying to invite the new made all the trying to invite the new made all the trying to invite the new made all the difference in the world in those first difference in the world in those first difference in the world in those first six years. So, the the 168 that left in six years. So, the the 168 that left in six years. So, the the 168 that left in that time, it was rarely theological, it that time, it was rarely theological, it that time, it was rarely theological, it was almost always size dynamics. I mean, was almost always size dynamics. I mean, was almost always size dynamics. I mean, they'd never been part of a church that they'd never been part of a church that they'd never been part of a church that size, and they felt lost in it. And um, size, and they felt lost in it. And um, size, and they felt lost in it. And um, you know, you're not having a potluck you know, you're not having a potluck you know, you're not having a potluck dinner when you're growing by a thousand dinner when you're growing by a thousand dinner when you're growing by a thousand a year. a year. a year. Um, and so it was new, and some people Um, and so it was new, and some people Um, and so it was new, and some people they were like, it's just we love it, they were like, it's just we love it, they were like, it's just we love it, it's just it's not for us. We we want a it's just it's not for us. We we want a it's just it's not for us. We we want a smaller place. And so, the original 168 smaller place. And so, the original 168 smaller place. And so, the original 168 that took the off-ramp, all did so to go that took the off-ramp, all did so to go that took the off-ramp, all did so to go to a smaller church in the area, and to a smaller church in the area, and to a smaller church in the area, and almost all left well. almost all left well. almost all left well. So, just to clarify, 168 people left So, just to clarify, 168 people left So, just to clarify, 168 people left that first year? No, no, no, 168 was my that first year? No, no, no, 168 was my that first year? No, no, no, 168 was my first Sunday there. That's how many first Sunday there. That's how many first Sunday there. That's how many people were there, which was a high people were there, which was a high people were there, which was a high attendance. They'd only been running attendance. They'd only been running attendance. They'd only been running about 60, 70 on Sundays. Wow. And and about 60, 70 on Sundays. Wow. And and about 60, 70 on Sundays. Wow. And and this is this goes to, you know, this is this goes to, you know, this is this goes to, you know, borrowing somebody else's plan. Uh borrowing somebody else's plan. Uh borrowing somebody else's plan. Uh then there's 13 people in the worship then there's 13 people in the worship then there's 13 people in the worship team all wearing color-coordinated team all wearing color-coordinated team all wearing color-coordinated vests, poorly doing Willow music. And vests, poorly doing Willow music. And vests, poorly doing Willow music. And um, so there's like two services.

um, so there's like two services. um, so there's like two services. image in my my image in my my image in my my That's well, you've got the right image. That's well, you've got the right image. That's well, you've got the right image. So, there's they're running two services So, there's they're running two services So, there's they're running two services and there's it's a 440-seat auditorium. and there's it's a 440-seat auditorium. and there's it's a 440-seat auditorium. Two services. Two services. Two services. There's only like, you know, 60, 70 There's only like, you know, 60, 70 There's only like, you know, 60, 70 people coming on a Sunday across the two people coming on a Sunday across the two people coming on a Sunday across the two services. And services. And services. And half of that or a third of that is on half of that or a third of that is on half of that or a third of that is on the worship team. the worship team. the worship team. And so, it was this like, what are we And so, it was this like, what are we And so, it was this like, what are we doing? And so, doing? And so, doing? And so, that was the That was what I walked that was the That was what I walked that was the That was what I walked into. into. into. Um but, Dell and Dell and Tiff and I've Um but, Dell and Dell and Tiff and I've Um but, Dell and Dell and Tiff and I've done both of their funerals now. Oh. Um done both of their funerals now. Oh. Um done both of their funerals now. Oh. Um were the kind of help were the kind of help were the kind of help that that you have to have if you're that that you have to have if you're that that you have to have if you're going to renovate and retrofit and going to renovate and retrofit and going to renovate and retrofit and revitalize. revitalize. revitalize. But, it also helps if the young man But, it also helps if the young man But, it also helps if the young man coming in will honor them. coming in will honor them. coming in will honor them. Uh and a mistake I've seen in a lot of Uh and a mistake I've seen in a lot of Uh and a mistake I've seen in a lot of revitalization revitalization revitalization is the young man is so zealous is the young man is so zealous is the young man is so zealous to recreate that he forgets to honor to recreate that he forgets to honor to recreate that he forgets to honor what's old. And what's funny is Dell and what's old. And what's funny is Dell and what's old. And what's funny is Dell and Tiff wore a suit till the day they died Tiff wore a suit till the day they died Tiff wore a suit till the day they died at our church. Wow. I mean, they're They at our church. Wow. I mean, they're They at our church. Wow. I mean, they're They were the only two that wore a jacket were the only two that wore a jacket were the only two that wore a jacket every Sunday morning till the day they every Sunday morning till the day they every Sunday morning till the day they died. So, they had adopted this posture died. So, they had adopted this posture died. So, they had adopted this posture of if you'll preach the Bible and men of if you'll preach the Bible and men of if you'll preach the Bible and men will get saved and you won't past you will get saved and you won't past you will get saved and you won't past you won't put us out to pasture, then we're won't put us out to pasture, then we're won't put us out to pasture, then we're we'll be we're for you. Go to work.

we'll be we're for you. Go to work. we'll be we're for you. Go to work. Change what you want to change. Change what you want to change. Change what you want to change. And man, I owe a ton to those guys. And And man, I owe a ton to those guys. And And man, I owe a ton to those guys. And I owe a ton to Fast Growth. I owe a ton to Fast Growth. I owe a ton to Fast Growth. Yeah. Well, you know, that question that Yeah. Well, you know, that question that Yeah. Well, you know, that question that I think it was Ron asked, anybody who I think it was Ron asked, anybody who I think it was Ron asked, anybody who buys a house knows immediately what they buys a house knows immediately what they buys a house knows immediately what they want to change when they move in. What want to change when they move in. What want to change when they move in. What do you want to change in this church? do you want to change in this church? do you want to change in this church? What a genius question. And honestly, What a genius question. And honestly, What a genius question. And honestly, that last 10 minutes for any young that last 10 minutes for any young that last 10 minutes for any young leader, if you are where Matt is or was leader, if you are where Matt is or was leader, if you are where Matt is or was 22 years ago, whatever it was when you 22 years ago, whatever it was when you 22 years ago, whatever it was when you started at Village, just go back and started at Village, just go back and started at Village, just go back and re-listen to that again and again. Find re-listen to that again and again. Find re-listen to that again and again. Find some allies, befriend them, and let them some allies, befriend them, and let them some allies, befriend them, and let them show you the ropes. That is masterful show you the ropes. That is masterful show you the ropes. That is masterful advice. So, you had some of the momentum advice. So, you had some of the momentum advice. So, you had some of the momentum that was happening over at that young that was happening over at that young that was happening over at that young adult gathering, the Metro. They adult gathering, the Metro. They adult gathering, the Metro. They immediately started coming to your immediately started coming to your immediately started coming to your church because you moved down the road, church because you moved down the road, church because you moved down the road, etc., etc. What were some other etc., etc. What were some other etc., etc. What were some other inflection points that you saw in those inflection points that you saw in those inflection points that you saw in those early years? So, I I had to One of the early years? So, I I had to One of the early years? So, I I had to One of the more challenging things was the risk more challenging things was the risk more challenging things was the risk aversion aversion aversion that had permeated the culture in the 3 that had permeated the culture in the 3 that had permeated the culture in the 3 years between the the pastor before me years between the the pastor before me years between the the pastor before me and me.

and me. and me. And so, we had Easter coming up. It It And so, we had Easter coming up. It It And so, we had Easter coming up. It It was clear that we were growing fast and was clear that we were growing fast and was clear that we were growing fast and that I at the time, I didn't want to do that I at the time, I didn't want to do that I at the time, I didn't want to do like seven services at our little like seven services at our little like seven services at our little building. building. building. So, I I approached the leadership team So, I I approached the leadership team So, I I approached the leadership team with this idea of leasing the auditorium with this idea of leasing the auditorium with this idea of leasing the auditorium at Marcus High School. at Marcus High School. at Marcus High School. And um I was met almost immediately with And um I was met almost immediately with And um I was met almost immediately with "Well, you know, what if this? And what "Well, you know, what if this? And what "Well, you know, what if this? And what if that? And what if we spend that money if that? And what if we spend that money if that? And what if we spend that money and this and this and that happens and and this and this and that happens and and this and this and that happens and this?" And it was I was trying to this?" And it was I was trying to this?" And it was I was trying to continually find new ways to lovingly continually find new ways to lovingly continually find new ways to lovingly say, "Hey, we we either need to decide say, "Hey, we we either need to decide say, "Hey, we we either need to decide to strive to thrive as a church or or we to strive to thrive as a church or or we to strive to thrive as a church or or we should just go out in a flood like let's should just go out in a flood like let's should just go out in a flood like let's just risk it and at least we went out just risk it and at least we went out just risk it and at least we went out trying." trying." trying." And um and so, that I think it was my And um and so, that I think it was my And um and so, that I think it was my second Easter there. Um we we we did it, second Easter there. Um we we we did it, second Easter there. Um we we we did it, man. We went to the Marcus Auditorium man. We went to the Marcus Auditorium man. We went to the Marcus Auditorium and and everybody invited their and and everybody invited their and and everybody invited their neighbors, and man, it was a neighbors, and man, it was a neighbors, and man, it was a it was packed in there. I mean, people it was packed in there. I mean, people it was packed in there. I mean, people were standing around the edges, and were standing around the edges, and were standing around the edges, and people came to Christ, and it was like people came to Christ, and it was like people came to Christ, and it was like that first time they tasted success in that first time they tasted success in that first time they tasted success in years. And man, that that put all sorts years. And man, that that put all sorts years. And man, that that put all sorts of wind in our sails, and they became of wind in our sails, and they became of wind in our sails, and they became more comfortable with risk at that more comfortable with risk at that more comfortable with risk at that point. It would be another couple years point. It would be another couple years point. It would be another couple years till they were fully comfortable with till they were fully comfortable with till they were fully comfortable with risk, but that was a healing moment. You risk, but that was a healing moment. You risk, but that was a healing moment. You could feel it. You could feel the could feel it. You could feel the could feel it. You could feel the culture shift after that Easter weekend

culture shift after that Easter weekend culture shift after that Easter weekend that we took a big risk, we spent a lot that we took a big risk, we spent a lot that we took a big risk, we spent a lot of money, and and God showed up. And of money, and and God showed up. And of money, and and God showed up. And they were starting to believe again. And they were starting to believe again. And they were starting to believe again. And so that's the one that thinking back on so that's the one that thinking back on so that's the one that thinking back on it, I remember going the air changed. I it, I remember going the air changed. I it, I remember going the air changed. I remember talking with Lauren about, remember talking with Lauren about, remember talking with Lauren about, "Hey, the the air shifted today." Yeah. "Hey, the the air shifted today." Yeah. "Hey, the the air shifted today." Yeah. The brightness in eyes started to return The brightness in eyes started to return The brightness in eyes started to return to the old guard. The hope that that God to the old guard. The hope that that God to the old guard. The hope that that God could use them is returning. And could use them is returning. And could use them is returning. And man, that that gave me a lot of man, that that gave me a lot of man, that that gave me a lot of leadership capital for the next year. leadership capital for the next year. leadership capital for the next year. Why do you think they trusted you? Why do you think they trusted you? Why do you think they trusted you? I I honestly I I tie it back to Metro, I I honestly I I tie it back to Metro, I I honestly I I tie it back to Metro, and I tie it back to and I tie it back to and I tie it back to to me being really honest in the hiring to me being really honest in the hiring to me being really honest in the hiring process. process. process. I think they knew he's letting us know I think they knew he's letting us know I think they knew he's letting us know what he's thinking. He's not subversive. what he's thinking. He's not subversive. what he's thinking. He's not subversive. I was very fortunate to have a group of I was very fortunate to have a group of I was very fortunate to have a group of leaders who believed in me, too, and let leaders who believed in me, too, and let leaders who believed in me, too, and let me do some outrageous things in those me do some outrageous things in those me do some outrageous things in those first few years of ministry when there first few years of ministry when there first few years of ministry when there wasn't consensus. And yeah, nothing wasn't consensus. And yeah, nothing wasn't consensus. And yeah, nothing succeeds like success, as they say. And succeeds like success, as they say. And succeeds like success, as they say. And we got to the point where it was almost we got to the point where it was almost we got to the point where it was almost unstoppable what was happening, and unstoppable what was happening, and unstoppable what was happening, and that's great. When you look back on it, that's great. When you look back on it, that's great. When you look back on it, cuz every leader makes mistakes, what cuz every leader makes mistakes, what cuz every leader makes mistakes, what are a few mistakes you made in those are a few mistakes you made in those are a few mistakes you made in those early years trying to revitalize? Oh, early years trying to revitalize? Oh, early years trying to revitalize? Oh, man.

man. man. I I think the one that I still think I I think the one that I still think I I think the one that I still think about was we just because we got so about was we just because we got so about was we just because we got so young so fast, young so fast, young so fast, I did not prioritize in any real way I did not prioritize in any real way I did not prioritize in any real way student ministry. student ministry. student ministry. You know, we were so heavy on kids, so You know, we were so heavy on kids, so You know, we were so heavy on kids, so light on teenagers. And I had leaders light on teenagers. And I had leaders light on teenagers. And I had leaders and parents in my ear, and I still don't and parents in my ear, and I still don't and parents in my ear, and I still don't know why I couldn't hear them. know why I couldn't hear them. know why I couldn't hear them. And so it would take us I mean, I think And so it would take us I mean, I think And so it would take us I mean, I think we lost a lot of families in like a like we lost a lot of families in like a like we lost a lot of families in like a like a 6-year period because we had not a 6-year period because we had not a 6-year period because we had not thought well or given any real thought well or given any real thought well or given any real leadership gumption um to student leadership gumption um to student leadership gumption um to student ministry. ministry. ministry. Um and I still carry I still like why Um and I still carry I still like why Um and I still carry I still like why was I Gosh, that's my roots. That's my was I Gosh, that's my roots. That's my was I Gosh, that's my roots. That's my background. How was I not What happened background. How was I not What happened background. How was I not What happened that I had like this gap of not being that I had like this gap of not being that I had like this gap of not being able to see and and not not giving some able to see and and not not giving some able to see and and not not giving some juice to this thing that's so huge in juice to this thing that's so huge in juice to this thing that's so huge in the life of our church now. I mean, the life of our church now. I mean, the life of our church now. I mean, we've got so much resources going to it, we've got so much resources going to it, we've got so much resources going to it, so much energy spent aiming young. But so much energy spent aiming young. But so much energy spent aiming young. But but at the time it maybe it was but at the time it maybe it was but at the time it maybe it was overwhelmed with everything else that overwhelmed with everything else that overwhelmed with everything else that needed to get done. When you're growing needed to get done. When you're growing needed to get done. When you're growing by a thousand a year, I know everybody by a thousand a year, I know everybody by a thousand a year, I know everybody thinks that's sexy. It's a nightmare.

thinks that's sexy. It's a nightmare. thinks that's sexy. It's a nightmare. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. I was Yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. I was Yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. I was just um I do a Friday newsletter. I was just um I do a Friday newsletter. I was just um I do a Friday newsletter. I was just linking to a really good Harvard just linking to a really good Harvard just linking to a really good Harvard Business Review piece on what is Business Review piece on what is Business Review piece on what is sustainable growth. And first of all, sustainable growth. And first of all, sustainable growth. And first of all, very few companies, corporate setting, very few companies, corporate setting, very few companies, corporate setting, are able to sustain growth over growth are able to sustain growth over growth are able to sustain growth over growth over a 25-year window. And secondly, over a 25-year window. And secondly, over a 25-year window. And secondly, there's a point at which growth becomes there's a point at which growth becomes there's a point at which growth becomes so big it almost feels like cancer, so big it almost feels like cancer, so big it almost feels like cancer, right? Like it's growing too fast. We right? Like it's growing too fast. We right? Like it's growing too fast. We can't we can't control this. What were can't we can't control this. What were can't we can't control this. What were some of the hard lessons of that kind of some of the hard lessons of that kind of some of the hard lessons of that kind of a thousand a year for a decade? Yeah, so a thousand a year for a decade? Yeah, so a thousand a year for a decade? Yeah, so the the metric for me I I was always the the metric for me I I was always the the metric for me I I was always kind of um kind of um kind of um I I didn't want to pastor a mega church. I I didn't want to pastor a mega church. I I didn't want to pastor a mega church. I had not had great experiences in mega I had not had great experiences in mega I had not had great experiences in mega church settings. I wanted church settings. I wanted church settings. I wanted like deep life with a group of people like deep life with a group of people like deep life with a group of people that were serious about the Lord and that were serious about the Lord and that were serious about the Lord and what the Lord might do with that over, what the Lord might do with that over, what the Lord might do with that over, you know, 20 years. you know, 20 years. you know, 20 years. Um and so, I was already reluctant, Um and so, I was already reluctant, Um and so, I was already reluctant, already skeptical. In fact, I can already skeptical. In fact, I can already skeptical. In fact, I can confess I think that this will maybe be confess I think that this will maybe be confess I think that this will maybe be helpful to confess.

helpful to confess. helpful to confess. Um a lot of my regrets in the first five Um a lot of my regrets in the first five Um a lot of my regrets in the first five or six years is I knew more about what I or six years is I knew more about what I or six years is I knew more about what I didn't want to be than what what God was didn't want to be than what what God was didn't want to be than what what God was calling me to build. Um and and so it calling me to build. Um and and so it calling me to build. Um and and so it was like, oh, they do that, well, I was like, oh, they do that, well, I was like, oh, they do that, well, I don't want to do that. And a lot of my don't want to do that. And a lot of my don't want to do that. And a lot of my early mistakes was I didn't I knew what early mistakes was I didn't I knew what early mistakes was I didn't I knew what I did not want to be. I knew how I did I did not want to be. I knew how I did I did not want to be. I knew how I did not want to do it, but I hadn't done the not want to do it, but I hadn't done the not want to do it, but I hadn't done the harder work of, okay, what are we doing harder work of, okay, what are we doing harder work of, okay, what are we doing then? Um and so that's a I I say that then? Um and so that's a I I say that then? Um and so that's a I I say that really to my shame. I was super angsty really to my shame. I was super angsty really to my shame. I was super angsty and judgmental and foolish and um maybe and judgmental and foolish and um maybe and judgmental and foolish and um maybe all maybe all 28 to 32-year-olds are, all maybe all 28 to 32-year-olds are, all maybe all 28 to 32-year-olds are, but I certainly was. but I certainly was. but I certainly was. And um man, I I listen to some of the And um man, I I listen to some of the And um man, I I listen to some of the things I used to say or go back and read things I used to say or go back and read things I used to say or go back and read some stuff I've written and I'm just some stuff I've written and I'm just some stuff I've written and I'm just like, gosh, I'd love to give this kid a like, gosh, I'd love to give this kid a like, gosh, I'd love to give this kid a hug. Uh I'd love to give this kid a hug. hug. Uh I'd love to give this kid a hug. hug. Uh I'd love to give this kid a hug. Um but that that was almost all my Um but that that was almost all my Um but that that was almost all my missteps are tied to I I with a lot of missteps are tied to I I with a lot of missteps are tied to I I with a lot of arrogance decided what I wasn't going to arrogance decided what I wasn't going to arrogance decided what I wasn't going to be rather than seeking the face of God be rather than seeking the face of God be rather than seeking the face of God for what he would have us to be. And and for what he would have us to be. And and for what he would have us to be. And and that's how the majority of my mistakes that's how the majority of my mistakes that's how the majority of my mistakes happened.

happened. happened. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Thank you for your honesty. I mean, I Thank you for your honesty. I mean, I Thank you for your honesty. I mean, I think there is the arrogance of youth, think there is the arrogance of youth, think there is the arrogance of youth, right? There's the arrogance of youth right? There's the arrogance of youth right? There's the arrogance of youth and I had and I had and I had similar impulses. It's like, well, I'm similar impulses. It's like, well, I'm similar impulses. It's like, well, I'm not going to be that, not going to be not going to be that, not going to be not going to be that, not going to be that. Yeah. You know, and and I hope I that. Yeah. You know, and and I hope I that. Yeah. You know, and and I hope I hope we get the opportunity be judged by hope we get the opportunity be judged by hope we get the opportunity be judged by a lifetime of work, not a moment Amen. a lifetime of work, not a moment Amen. a lifetime of work, not a moment Amen. of of whatever indiscretion, bad of of whatever indiscretion, bad of of whatever indiscretion, bad decision. decision. decision. I want to talk about two interruptions I want to talk about two interruptions I want to talk about two interruptions to your ministry that you had. One to your ministry that you had. One to your ministry that you had. One happened a few years ago when you were happened a few years ago when you were happened a few years ago when you were diagnosed with cancer and that was a diagnosed with cancer and that was a diagnosed with cancer and that was a very public journey, private journey. Do very public journey, private journey. Do very public journey, private journey. Do you want to recap what happened and then you want to recap what happened and then you want to recap what happened and then more particular, what happened in you more particular, what happened in you more particular, what happened in you Yeah. and what happened to your church Yeah. and what happened to your church Yeah. and what happened to your church on on that journey? Yeah. So on Here's on on that journey? Yeah. So on Here's on on that journey? Yeah. So on Here's what's crazy. It was 15 years ago now, what's crazy. It was 15 years ago now, what's crazy. It was 15 years ago now, Carey. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, I mean, I Carey. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, I mean, I Carey. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, I mean, I remember it like it was 2009. It was remember it like it was 2009. It was remember it like it was 2009. It was 2009. 2009. 2009. So, on Thanksgiving morning, what's So, on Thanksgiving morning, what's So, on Thanksgiving morning, what's interesting is a couple of weeks before interesting is a couple of weeks before interesting is a couple of weeks before this, my wife had approached me and just this, my wife had approached me and just this, my wife had approached me and just had laid out some concerns that she had had laid out some concerns that she had had laid out some concerns that she had um with the way I was doing life. She um with the way I was doing life. She um with the way I was doing life. She She had pointed out that I'm I'm She had pointed out that I'm I'm She had pointed out that I'm I'm starting to withdraw from things. I'm starting to withdraw from things. I'm starting to withdraw from things. I'm not as extroverted and that I'm a little not as extroverted and that I'm a little not as extroverted and that I'm a little bit more irritable than normal. And we bit more irritable than normal. And we bit more irritable than normal. And we just chalked it up to church is crazy.

just chalked it up to church is crazy. just chalked it up to church is crazy. We have three small kids. And so, our We have three small kids. And so, our We have three small kids. And so, our plan was let's let's take Thanksgiving plan was let's let's take Thanksgiving plan was let's let's take Thanksgiving in this little window to get rest. And in this little window to get rest. And in this little window to get rest. And so, Lauren was like, "Sleep in so, Lauren was like, "Sleep in so, Lauren was like, "Sleep in Thanksgiving morning. We're going to go Thanksgiving morning. We're going to go Thanksgiving morning. We're going to go to my parents' house for lunch. I'll to my parents' house for lunch. I'll to my parents' house for lunch. I'll handle the dishes. I'll put the the handle the dishes. I'll put the the handle the dishes. I'll put the the parade on for the kids and you just parade on for the kids and you just parade on for the kids and you just sleep in." And man, I slept slept. Like sleep in." And man, I slept slept. Like sleep in." And man, I slept slept. Like I like surprise I don't know if I like surprise I don't know if I like surprise I don't know if anybody's ever done like I just anybody's ever done like I just anybody's ever done like I just surprised I was like, "I'm not going to surprised I was like, "I'm not going to surprised I was like, "I'm not going to set an alarm." Then you wake up at like set an alarm." Then you wake up at like set an alarm." Then you wake up at like 9:30 and you're like, "Wait, what just 9:30 and you're like, "Wait, what just 9:30 and you're like, "Wait, what just happened?" Done this since college, happened?" Done this since college, happened?" Done this since college, right? right? right? and I'm sore. I'm a little sore from the and I'm sore. I'm a little sore from the and I'm sore. I'm a little sore from the sleep. And then I got up and Lauren sleep. And then I got up and Lauren sleep. And then I got up and Lauren asked me to give Nora her bottle. And asked me to give Nora her bottle. And asked me to give Nora her bottle. And so, I gave uh my at the time uh so, I gave uh my at the time uh so, I gave uh my at the time uh 8-month-old daughter a bottle. And then 8-month-old daughter a bottle. And then 8-month-old daughter a bottle. And then I put her in her little Johnny Jump Up I put her in her little Johnny Jump Up I put her in her little Johnny Jump Up thing and then I woke up in the thing and then I woke up in the thing and then I woke up in the hospital. I had had a grand mal seizure hospital. I had had a grand mal seizure hospital. I had had a grand mal seizure in front of the kids in the living room. in front of the kids in the living room. in front of the kids in the living room. Uh Lauren had to come in. I had I hit Uh Lauren had to come in. I had I hit Uh Lauren had to come in. I had I hit the the the the mantle of our fireplace on the way the mantle of our fireplace on the way the mantle of our fireplace on the way down, bit through my tongue. And so, I'm down, bit through my tongue. And so, I'm down, bit through my tongue. And so, I'm laying on the floor in a grand mal laying on the floor in a grand mal laying on the floor in a grand mal seizure. I had knocked over the seizure. I had knocked over the seizure. I had knocked over the fireplace tools. And Lauren had heard it fireplace tools. And Lauren had heard it fireplace tools. And Lauren had heard it in the other room and she was waiting to in the other room and she was waiting to in the other room and she was waiting to hear my voice tell one of the kids that hear my voice tell one of the kids that hear my voice tell one of the kids that it's okay. Let's pick it up. Let's And it's okay. Let's pick it up. Let's And it's okay. Let's pick it up. Let's And when she didn't hear my voice, she came when she didn't hear my voice, she came when she didn't hear my voice, she came around the corner and and saw me on the around the corner and and saw me on the around the corner and and saw me on the floor, sent the kids upstairs, called floor, sent the kids upstairs, called floor, sent the kids upstairs, called 911.

911. 911. Um so, I wake up in the hospital and Um so, I wake up in the hospital and Um so, I wake up in the hospital and come to find out I had a golf ball sized come to find out I had a golf ball sized come to find out I had a golf ball sized tumor in my right frontal lobe, which tumor in my right frontal lobe, which tumor in my right frontal lobe, which was probably tied to my withdrawing and was probably tied to my withdrawing and was probably tied to my withdrawing and irritability. We wouldn't find that out irritability. We wouldn't find that out irritability. We wouldn't find that out till later. And um had a full resection till later. And um had a full resection till later. And um had a full resection of the right frontal lobe, uh 18 months of the right frontal lobe, uh 18 months of the right frontal lobe, uh 18 months radiate or um 6 weeks radiation low dose radiate or um 6 weeks radiation low dose radiate or um 6 weeks radiation low dose chemo, 18 months full blast chemo, and chemo, 18 months full blast chemo, and chemo, 18 months full blast chemo, and they gave me 2 to 3 years to live. And they gave me 2 to 3 years to live. And they gave me 2 to 3 years to live. And so, man, it I will so, man, it I will so, man, it I will that day, not not the day that we found that day, not not the day that we found that day, not not the day that we found out we had a tumor I had a tumor because out we had a tumor I had a tumor because out we had a tumor I had a tumor because man, at this point in my life, man, at this point in my life, man, at this point in my life, everything I touch turns to gold. I everything I touch turns to gold. I everything I touch turns to gold. I mean, I hadn't had a single failure. And mean, I hadn't had a single failure. And mean, I hadn't had a single failure. And so, man, I I took that news, "Oh, I've so, man, I I took that news, "Oh, I've so, man, I I took that news, "Oh, I've got a tumor in my head." like a champ. I got a tumor in my head." like a champ. I got a tumor in my head." like a champ. I mean, I just thought, "Man, they'll give mean, I just thought, "Man, they'll give mean, I just thought, "Man, they'll give me some medicine and we'll be fine." I me some medicine and we'll be fine." I me some medicine and we'll be fine." I had no thought of how serious this thing had no thought of how serious this thing had no thought of how serious this thing was. was. was. And then when I went and saw the And then when I went and saw the And then when I went and saw the neurosurgeon, neurosurgeon, neurosurgeon, he turned on his computer and the image he turned on his computer and the image he turned on his computer and the image looked very different. It was red and looked very different. It was red and looked very different. It was red and bright and scary, and he looked nervous bright and scary, and he looked nervous bright and scary, and he looked nervous for me. Even tried to encourage me by for me. Even tried to encourage me by for me. Even tried to encourage me by telling me a story of a guy he knew telling me a story of a guy he knew telling me a story of a guy he knew whose name was David, who actually lived whose name was David, who actually lived whose name was David, who actually lived for a whole decade with glioblastoma.

for a whole decade with glioblastoma. for a whole decade with glioblastoma. And I was like, "Wait, what? What? He's And I was like, "Wait, what? What? He's And I was like, "Wait, what? What? He's trying to encourage me with you have 10 trying to encourage me with you have 10 trying to encourage me with you have 10 years left." I'm in my 30s. I've got a years left." I'm in my 30s. I've got a years left." I'm in my 30s. I've got a 8-month-old daughter. I've got what? And 8-month-old daughter. I've got what? And 8-month-old daughter. I've got what? And um um um and then after the surgery, when they we and then after the surgery, when they we and then after the surgery, when they we my wife and myself and um another one of my wife and myself and um another one of my wife and myself and um another one of the pastors at the church and the pastors at the church and the pastors at the church and um we sat with our doctors and because um we sat with our doctors and because um we sat with our doctors and because at that point they had formed a team. at that point they had formed a team. at that point they had formed a team. This is all I don't I don't have no idea This is all I don't I don't have no idea This is all I don't I don't have no idea what's going There's a whole team in what's going There's a whole team in what's going There's a whole team in this room when I get in there. I would this room when I get in there. I would this room when I get in there. I would find it was my neuro-oncologist, my find it was my neuro-oncologist, my find it was my neuro-oncologist, my radiation oncologist, and and my radiation oncologist, and and my radiation oncologist, and and my surgeon. And um surgeon. And um surgeon. And um you know, they they gave me the um you know, they they gave me the um you know, they they gave me the um anaplastic oligodendroglioma who grade anaplastic oligodendroglioma who grade anaplastic oligodendroglioma who grade three and 2 to 3 years. And man, the three and 2 to 3 years. And man, the three and 2 to 3 years. And man, the floor fell out from under me. And I floor fell out from under me. And I floor fell out from under me. And I needed to make some calls, you know, I needed to make some calls, you know, I needed to make some calls, you know, I needed to let some other people know, needed to let some other people know, needed to let some other people know, and I could not get my voice to work. I and I could not get my voice to work. I and I could not get my voice to work. I I literally couldn't get words to come I literally couldn't get words to come I literally couldn't get words to come out. So, I'm having to hand the phone to out. So, I'm having to hand the phone to out. So, I'm having to hand the phone to my wife or hand the phone to Brian my wife or hand the phone to Brian my wife or hand the phone to Brian Miller, uh who was an elder chairman of Miller, uh who was an elder chairman of Miller, uh who was an elder chairman of the elder board at the time, and let the elder board at the time, and let the elder board at the time, and let them tell people cuz I couldn't talk.

them tell people cuz I couldn't talk. them tell people cuz I couldn't talk. And then, man, I And then, man, I And then, man, I I don't know. That was the darkest few I don't know. That was the darkest few I don't know. That was the darkest few days of my because everywhere I looked, days of my because everywhere I looked, days of my because everywhere I looked, I saw loss. I saw loss. I saw loss. I mean, I I would see little, you know, I mean, I I would see little, you know, I mean, I I would see little, you know, 6-year-old Audrey, and all I could see 6-year-old Audrey, and all I could see 6-year-old Audrey, and all I could see was I wasn't going to get her I wasn't was I wasn't going to get her I wasn't was I wasn't going to get her I wasn't going to get to walk her down the aisle. going to get to walk her down the aisle. going to get to walk her down the aisle. And I could see Reed, and I had this And I could see Reed, and I had this And I could see Reed, and I had this this deep desire to let the stuff in my this deep desire to let the stuff in my this deep desire to let the stuff in my bloodline go in the ground with me. bloodline go in the ground with me. bloodline go in the ground with me. I wanted Reed to have different wrestles I wanted Reed to have different wrestles I wanted Reed to have different wrestles than say the ones I have. I wanted to than say the ones I have. I wanted to than say the ones I have. I wanted to take some demons into the ground with take some demons into the ground with take some demons into the ground with me. And I realized I'm probably not me. And I realized I'm probably not me. And I realized I'm probably not going to get to do that. And then, I going to get to do that. And then, I going to get to do that. And then, I would think that Nora would have no would think that Nora would have no would think that Nora would have no memory of who I was other than some memory of who I was other than some memory of who I was other than some YouTube clips. She could watch the Jesus YouTube clips. She could watch the Jesus YouTube clips. She could watch the Jesus wants the rose clips if she wanted. wants the rose clips if she wanted. wants the rose clips if she wanted. And And And um um um And man, I was shook. And so, I just And man, I was shook. And so, I just And man, I was shook. And so, I just withdrew. I just put on my headphones withdrew. I just put on my headphones withdrew. I just put on my headphones and would listen to worship music, and I and would listen to worship music, and I and would listen to worship music, and I was wrestling with the Lord. Um and was wrestling with the Lord. Um and was wrestling with the Lord. Um and And then, Lauren like she just literally nearly pinned me like she just literally nearly pinned me to the wall.

to the wall. to the wall. And just said, "I don't know how this is And just said, "I don't know how this is And just said, "I don't know how this is going to end, but it's not going to end going to end, but it's not going to end going to end, but it's not going to end like this. So, you take those headphones like this. So, you take those headphones like this. So, you take those headphones off, and you get back out here." And off, and you get back out here." And off, and you get back out here." And just kind of shook me back into reality. just kind of shook me back into reality. just kind of shook me back into reality. Um and then, man, Um and then, man, Um and then, man, the the presence of God tangibly through the the presence of God tangibly through the the presence of God tangibly through the saints is just one of the more the saints is just one of the more the saints is just one of the more powerful things anybody could ever powerful things anybody could ever powerful things anybody could ever experience in life. And so, guys would experience in life. And so, guys would experience in life. And so, guys would just fly in and just sit with me. Uh just fly in and just sit with me. Uh just fly in and just sit with me. Uh members of the church would come over members of the church would come over members of the church would come over and just sit. My good friends would just and just sit. My good friends would just and just sit. My good friends would just show up and eat with me. And I I show up and eat with me. And I I show up and eat with me. And I I couldn't drive, couldn't drive, couldn't drive, um so they would drive me to radiation, um so they would drive me to radiation, um so they would drive me to radiation, you know, treatments down in Dallas cuz you know, treatments down in Dallas cuz you know, treatments down in Dallas cuz I I I live about 40 minutes outside of I I I live about 40 minutes outside of I I I live about 40 minutes outside of downtown, but my hospital was in downtown, but my hospital was in downtown, but my hospital was in downtown. And so, man, they were taking downtown. And so, man, they were taking downtown. And so, man, they were taking me and just the way I experienced God's me and just the way I experienced God's me and just the way I experienced God's presence presence presence through my friends, uh through people at through my friends, uh through people at through my friends, uh through people at the church. And and then God did a deep the church. And and then God did a deep the church. And and then God did a deep and profound work in me in that season.

and profound work in me in that season. and profound work in me in that season. Um that that I think I already kind of Um that that I think I already kind of Um that that I think I already kind of embraced that the good life and the hard embraced that the good life and the hard embraced that the good life and the hard life aren't mutually exclusive, but I life aren't mutually exclusive, but I life aren't mutually exclusive, but I had an experience I knew it had an experience I knew it had an experience I knew it theologically, but I hadn't experienced theologically, but I hadn't experienced theologically, but I hadn't experienced it. it. it. Um and man, I I experienced it deeply in Um and man, I I experienced it deeply in Um and man, I I experienced it deeply in that season. The nearness of the spirit that season. The nearness of the spirit that season. The nearness of the spirit of God to me in these wrestles with of God to me in these wrestles with of God to me in these wrestles with anxiety, in these honest prayers of anxiety, in these honest prayers of anxiety, in these honest prayers of frustration with him. Um and then he frustration with him. Um and then he frustration with him. Um and then he revealed some ugly stuff in me that I revealed some ugly stuff in me that I revealed some ugly stuff in me that I didn't know was there. didn't know was there. didn't know was there. Um that I got an opportunity to repent Um that I got an opportunity to repent Um that I got an opportunity to repent of and to just confess I don't want to of and to just confess I don't want to of and to just confess I don't want to be this kind of man. So, I was sitting be this kind of man. So, I was sitting be this kind of man. So, I was sitting at that Christmas, 15 years ago, was a at that Christmas, 15 years ago, was a at that Christmas, 15 years ago, was a white Christmas in Dallas. I mean, it white Christmas in Dallas. I mean, it white Christmas in Dallas. I mean, it snowed snowed. So, it was like insult to snowed snowed. So, it was like insult to snowed snowed. So, it was like insult to injury, man. It was just like now I'm injury, man. It was just like now I'm injury, man. It was just like now I'm they just let me out of neuro rehab, so they just let me out of neuro rehab, so they just let me out of neuro rehab, so I just gotten home. And now there's this I just gotten home. And now there's this I just gotten home. And now there's this full-on white Christmas where my kids full-on white Christmas where my kids full-on white Christmas where my kids are outside playing and they're making are outside playing and they're making are outside playing and they're making snowballs and I can't do anything. I'm snowballs and I can't do anything. I'm snowballs and I can't do anything. I'm just sitting in the house looking out just sitting in the house looking out just sitting in the house looking out the window. And later on, a couple of the window. And later on, a couple of the window. And later on, a couple of days later, you know, I I don't know if days later, you know, I I don't know if days later, you know, I I don't know if they do this in Canada, maybe they do, they do this in Canada, maybe they do, they do this in Canada, maybe they do, but you know, we got like a thousand but you know, we got like a thousand but you know, we got like a thousand Christmas cards that, you know, is a Christmas cards that, you know, is a Christmas cards that, you know, is a picture of a family, maybe their dog picture of a family, maybe their dog picture of a family, maybe their dog with a scarf on, and we just put those with a scarf on, and we just put those with a scarf on, and we just put those on our mantel. And so, I'm sitting on on our mantel. And so, I'm sitting on on our mantel. And so, I'm sitting on the couch and I see a picture of the couch and I see a picture of the couch and I see a picture of a couple that was going to our church.

a couple that was going to our church. a couple that was going to our church. And he was like a serial adulterer. And he was like a serial adulterer. And he was like a serial adulterer. Maybe I'm I'm not I'm no clinician, but Maybe I'm I'm not I'm no clinician, but Maybe I'm I'm not I'm no clinician, but more than likely a narcissist. And like more than likely a narcissist. And like more than likely a narcissist. And like terrible dad. I mean just all the the terrible dad. I mean just all the the terrible dad. I mean just all the the kind of brokenness that can befall. And kind of brokenness that can befall. And kind of brokenness that can befall. And I remember sitting on my couch going, I remember sitting on my couch going, I remember sitting on my couch going, "Really, God? Me? I'm the one? I'm the "Really, God? Me? I'm the one? I'm the "Really, God? Me? I'm the one? I'm the one you're letting go through this?" And one you're letting go through this?" And one you're letting go through this?" And it And like sitting there ranting it And like sitting there ranting it And like sitting there ranting against God because this guy is, you against God because this guy is, you against God because this guy is, you know, probably playing with his kids in know, probably playing with his kids in know, probably playing with his kids in the freaking snow. the freaking snow. the freaking snow. I I I remembered Luke 15. I I I remembered Luke 15. I I I remembered Luke 15. And felt like I was being the older And felt like I was being the older And felt like I was being the older brother. And the Lord kindly rebuked me. brother. And the Lord kindly rebuked me. brother. And the Lord kindly rebuked me. And I caught myself being And I caught myself being And I caught myself being self-righteous. self-righteous. self-righteous. And and just was able to go, "I don't And and just was able to go, "I don't And and just was able to go, "I don't want to be this kind of man. I hate that want to be this kind of man. I hate that want to be this kind of man. I hate that this is in me." And I could tell more this is in me." And I could tell more this is in me." And I could tell more stories. It was It was spiritual surgery stories. It was It was spiritual surgery stories. It was It was spiritual surgery as much as it was ever anything else. as much as it was ever anything else. as much as it was ever anything else. Now, I don't think God gave me cancer, Now, I don't think God gave me cancer, Now, I don't think God gave me cancer, but he certainly could have but he certainly could have but he certainly could have made me not get it. made me not get it. made me not get it. Um, and but he but he did heal me. And Um, and but he but he did heal me. And Um, and but he but he did heal me. And uh Yeah. Here we are 15 years later.

uh Yeah. Here we are 15 years later. uh Yeah. Here we are 15 years later. 15 years later. And I've I've still got 15 years later. And I've I've still got 15 years later. And I've I've still got to go once a year to get a scan. But to go once a year to get a scan. But to go once a year to get a scan. But even my oncologist who's like, even my oncologist who's like, even my oncologist who's like, "Something else is going to kill you. "Something else is going to kill you. "Something else is going to kill you. This isn't going to kill you." And um, This isn't going to kill you." And um, This isn't going to kill you." And um, and so yeah, that that was that season. and so yeah, that that was that season. and so yeah, that that was that season. It was a It was my first real rodeo, if It was a It was my first real rodeo, if It was a It was my first real rodeo, if you will. I had not experienced you will. I had not experienced you will. I had not experienced the brokenness of life personally quite the brokenness of life personally quite the brokenness of life personally quite like that. I mean, Lauren and I had some like that. I mean, Lauren and I had some like that. I mean, Lauren and I had some hard years in marriage. I had certainly hard years in marriage. I had certainly hard years in marriage. I had certainly learned some hard lessons in college as learned some hard lessons in college as learned some hard lessons in college as I started to lead and realized there are I started to lead and realized there are I started to lead and realized there are unwinnable situations and there's always unwinnable situations and there's always unwinnable situations and there's always going to be some people that dislike you going to be some people that dislike you going to be some people that dislike you no matter what you do. But this was a no matter what you do. But this was a no matter what you do. But this was a different level of it, man. This was different level of it, man. This was different level of it, man. This was This was This was This was deeply disorienting. deeply disorienting. deeply disorienting. I know if I've got my chronology right, I know if I've got my chronology right, I know if I've got my chronology right, hitting the wall would come shortly hitting the wall would come shortly hitting the wall would come shortly after that. Is that right? Yeah, not after that. Is that right? Yeah, not after that. Is that right? Yeah, not long after that. long after that. long after that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What did What did your cancer journey do What did What did your cancer journey do What did What did your cancer journey do to your empathy to your empathy to your empathy for people in distress? for people in distress? for people in distress? gosh. Like I am If somebody at the gosh. Like I am If somebody at the gosh. Like I am If somebody at the church finds out they have cancer, I I church finds out they have cancer, I I church finds out they have cancer, I I want I want to show up.

want I want to show up. want I want to show up. Um one, there's something it it's a Um one, there's something it it's a Um one, there's something it it's a weird thing how we think about comfort. weird thing how we think about comfort. weird thing how we think about comfort. Um just the fact that I've been there Um just the fact that I've been there Um just the fact that I've been there and and sometimes can even talk and and sometimes can even talk and and sometimes can even talk medicines and protocols with them medicines and protocols with them medicines and protocols with them puts them at ease in a way that that puts them at ease in a way that that puts them at ease in a way that that maybe had I not gone through that. And maybe had I not gone through that. And maybe had I not gone through that. And then I can feel heart I can remember I then I can feel heart I can remember I then I can feel heart I can remember I can viscerally remember can viscerally remember can viscerally remember um the day I found out um my first time um the day I found out um my first time um the day I found out um my first time in treatment. Uh I can remember the in treatment. Uh I can remember the in treatment. Uh I can remember the ongoing battle of anxiety. I can ongoing battle of anxiety. I can ongoing battle of anxiety. I can remember it felt like I was remember it felt like I was remember it felt like I was schizophrenic where I would in one schizophrenic where I would in one schizophrenic where I would in one moment just be 100% sure that God was moment just be 100% sure that God was moment just be 100% sure that God was going to heal me and 20 minutes later going to heal me and 20 minutes later going to heal me and 20 minutes later just know I was going to die and be just know I was going to die and be just know I was going to die and be hurting and lamenting the loss of all hurting and lamenting the loss of all hurting and lamenting the loss of all that not being here would bring about that not being here would bring about that not being here would bring about for my wife, for my family, for and and for my wife, for my family, for and and for my wife, for my family, for and and there was no rhyme or reason to it. And there was no rhyme or reason to it. And there was no rhyme or reason to it. And so I I'm so familiar with that space. so I I'm so familiar with that space. so I I'm so familiar with that space. One of my favorite things even now is to One of my favorite things even now is to One of my favorite things even now is to enter into it with other people enter into it with other people enter into it with other people um and and pray and be present. And so um and and pray and be present. And so um and and pray and be present. And so it certainly has made me more empathetic it certainly has made me more empathetic it certainly has made me more empathetic for days like that.

for days like that. for days like that. Anything else from the cancer journey Anything else from the cancer journey Anything else from the cancer journey that you want to share? Oh man, I think that you want to share? Oh man, I think that you want to share? Oh man, I think it's certainly helped put it helped me it's certainly helped put it helped me it's certainly helped put it helped me make me less serious and more serious make me less serious and more serious make me less serious and more serious all at the same time. Um and I just all at the same time. Um and I just all at the same time. Um and I just think think think like we you're not going to you're not like we you're not going to you're not like we you're not going to you're not going to bother me saying mean things going to bother me saying mean things going to bother me saying mean things about me on the internet. I've survived about me on the internet. I've survived about me on the internet. I've survived brain cancer. You know, it puts things brain cancer. You know, it puts things brain cancer. You know, it puts things in weird perspectives. You're like, "Oh, in weird perspectives. You're like, "Oh, in weird perspectives. You're like, "Oh, that's really hateful tweet." that's really hateful tweet." that's really hateful tweet." And and yet, you know, I've survived I'm And and yet, you know, I've survived I'm And and yet, you know, I've survived I'm probably going to get through this. probably going to get through this. probably going to get through this. Um Um Um so it I think it developed resilience in so it I think it developed resilience in so it I think it developed resilience in a unique way for sure because there was a unique way for sure because there was a unique way for sure because there was like emotional, spiritual, and physical like emotional, spiritual, and physical like emotional, spiritual, and physical resilience are all a part of that resilience are all a part of that resilience are all a part of that journey. journey. journey. Um Um Um and so certainly it helped develop some and so certainly it helped develop some and so certainly it helped develop some resilience. resilience. resilience. You had another um You had another um You had another um interruption, a step back in ministry a interruption, a step back in ministry a interruption, a step back in ministry a few years ago and it was covered few years ago and it was covered few years ago and it was covered nationally. I mean the New York Times nationally. I mean the New York Times nationally. I mean the New York Times and everything, but you took a a leave and everything, but you took a a leave and everything, but you took a a leave in ministry uh because an exchange of an in ministry uh because an exchange of an in ministry uh because an exchange of an exchange of Instagram messages between exchange of Instagram messages between exchange of Instagram messages between you and a woman. Um nothing according to you and a woman. Um nothing according to you and a woman. Um nothing according to the reports and you and I have talked the reports and you and I have talked the reports and you and I have talked about this before, about this before, about this before, quote romantic or sexual, but I think in quote romantic or sexual, but I think in quote romantic or sexual, but I think in your words unguarded and unwise. Yeah.

your words unguarded and unwise. Yeah. your words unguarded and unwise. Yeah. Can you walk us through that situation, Can you walk us through that situation, Can you walk us through that situation, what happened, and what we can learn what happened, and what we can learn what happened, and what we can learn what you learned and what we can learn what you learned and what we can learn what you learned and what we can learn from that, Matt? from that, Matt? from that, Matt? So um Lauren and I were friends and were So um Lauren and I were friends and were So um Lauren and I were friends and were friends with this couple uh at the friends with this couple uh at the friends with this couple uh at the church. Um we'd had dinner with them church. Um we'd had dinner with them church. Um we'd had dinner with them multiple times and um multiple times and um multiple times and um it it didn't start out on Instagram at it it didn't start out on Instagram at it it didn't start out on Instagram at all. And really enjoyed them and then um all. And really enjoyed them and then um all. And really enjoyed them and then um she began to DM us she began to DM us she began to DM us and then began to DM me. and then began to DM me. and then began to DM me. Um it it Um it it Um it it I I'm not normally in the habit of DMing I I'm not normally in the habit of DMing I I'm not normally in the habit of DMing with any woman, so I actually said to with any woman, so I actually said to with any woman, so I actually said to Lauren, Lauren, Lauren, "Hey, this woman DMs me a lot." To which "Hey, this woman DMs me a lot." To which "Hey, this woman DMs me a lot." To which my wife responded, "She does that with my wife responded, "She does that with my wife responded, "She does that with me too. I think she's just one of those me too. I think she's just one of those me too. I think she's just one of those people that this is the way they don't people that this is the way they don't people that this is the way they don't text, they DM." Yeah. text, they DM." Yeah. text, they DM." Yeah. And and so I was like, "Well, okay. I'm And and so I was like, "Well, okay. I'm And and so I was like, "Well, okay. I'm this is no secret. We're not saying this is no secret. We're not saying this is no secret. We're not saying anything inappropriate. My wife knows anything inappropriate. My wife knows anything inappropriate. My wife knows it, her husband knows it." And that's it, her husband knows it." And that's it, her husband knows it." And that's kind of how it got through my grid.

kind of how it got through my grid. kind of how it got through my grid. And um And um And um and you know, one of my lessons or and you know, one of my lessons or and you know, one of my lessons or really I think my two-tier lesson in really I think my two-tier lesson in really I think my two-tier lesson in this scenario was, you know, um Satan's this scenario was, you know, um Satan's this scenario was, you know, um Satan's craftier than I gave him credit and I'm craftier than I gave him credit and I'm craftier than I gave him credit and I'm dumber than I gave myself credit. Uh and dumber than I gave myself credit. Uh and dumber than I gave myself credit. Uh and those two things were were in well, those two things were were in well, those two things were were in well, became very publicly displayed as this became very publicly displayed as this became very publicly displayed as this thing progressed. And so that that was thing progressed. And so that that was thing progressed. And so that that was really what what happened. We just began really what what happened. We just began really what what happened. We just began there was a frequency and a familiarity there was a frequency and a familiarity there was a frequency and a familiarity in the the DMs that that were when all in the the DMs that that were when all in the the DMs that that were when all said and done unbecoming of a man in my said and done unbecoming of a man in my said and done unbecoming of a man in my position. position. position. And I understand I'm held to a higher And I understand I'm held to a higher And I understand I'm held to a higher standard than others and standard than others and standard than others and and I mean that was part of the deal I and I mean that was part of the deal I and I mean that was part of the deal I signed up for. And signed up for. And signed up for. And and that was the you know what was funny and that was the you know what was funny and that was the you know what was funny to me it's not funny. to me it's not funny. to me it's not funny. We thought We thought We thought that by sharing everything that had that by sharing everything that had that by sharing everything that had happened which is what we've tried to do happened which is what we've tried to do happened which is what we've tried to do in all of our scandals that we can in all of our scandals that we can in all of our scandals that we can mitigate mitigate some of the mitigate mitigate some of the mitigate mitigate some of the speculation around it. But then it speculation around it. But then it speculation around it. But then it totally didn't work that way at all. It totally didn't work that way at all. It totally didn't work that way at all. It was like obviously they're hiding was like obviously they're hiding was like obviously they're hiding something and something and something and then everybody was waiting for you know then everybody was waiting for you know then everybody was waiting for you know the next shoe to drop but we just told the next shoe to drop but we just told the next shoe to drop but we just told the full truth so that there was no shoe the full truth so that there was no shoe the full truth so that there was no shoe that was going to drop.

that was going to drop. that was going to drop. Yeah. Yeah, when you say Yeah. Yeah, when you say Yeah. Yeah, when you say unwise or you know, I was dumber than I unwise or you know, I was dumber than I unwise or you know, I was dumber than I realized what in retrospect was realized what in retrospect was realized what in retrospect was unwise on your part? Yeah, I I think the unwise on your part? Yeah, I I think the unwise on your part? Yeah, I I think the the language I would use to describe the the language I would use to describe the the language I would use to describe the lack of wisdom is frequency and lack of wisdom is frequency and lack of wisdom is frequency and familiarity. familiarity. familiarity. That there was a frequency a frequency a That there was a frequency a frequency a That there was a frequency a frequency a number number number of texts or DMs a consistently of texts or DMs a consistently of texts or DMs a consistently consistency of back and forth that I consistency of back and forth that I consistency of back and forth that I think was unwise and then that I grew a think was unwise and then that I grew a think was unwise and then that I grew a little bit too familiar little bit too familiar little bit too familiar and so there was there were instances and so there was there were instances and so there was there were instances where there was some humor that was where there was some humor that was where there was some humor that was probably inappropriate not probably probably inappropriate not probably probably inappropriate not probably inappropriate there was some humor that inappropriate there was some humor that inappropriate there was some humor that was inappropriate and there was was inappropriate and there was was inappropriate and there was there were certain memes shared back and there were certain memes shared back and there were certain memes shared back and forth that were probably not probably I forth that were probably not probably I forth that were probably not probably I don't need to say the word probably they don't need to say the word probably they don't need to say the word probably they were inappropriate and foolish. And so were inappropriate and foolish. And so were inappropriate and foolish. And so that that's the dumber. Because honestly that that's the dumber. Because honestly that that's the dumber. Because honestly if I'm on this and you would ask me if I'm on this and you would ask me if I'm on this and you would ask me right now is there any wisdom in an right now is there any wisdom in an right now is there any wisdom in an ongoing DM relationship with a woman in ongoing DM relationship with a woman in ongoing DM relationship with a woman in your church who's not your wife. I your church who's not your wife. I your church who's not your wife. I wouldn't say, "Well, does your wife know wouldn't say, "Well, does your wife know wouldn't say, "Well, does your wife know about it?" I wouldn't say, "Is there about it?" I wouldn't say, "Is there about it?" I wouldn't say, "Is there anything about it that No, I would say, anything about it that No, I would say, anything about it that No, I would say, "Buddy, you're you're being an idiot."

"Buddy, you're you're being an idiot." "Buddy, you're you're being an idiot." You know, there's never but You know, there's never but You know, there's never but somehow and and this is where this is somehow and and this is where this is somehow and and this is where this is how I spent my leave of absence going, how I spent my leave of absence going, how I spent my leave of absence going, "What happened there that I like "What happened there that I like "What happened there that I like couldn't see in in that that that couldn't see in in that that that couldn't see in in that that that season? What what happened to me? Like season? What what happened to me? Like season? What what happened to me? Like I'm I'm I'm vigilant about my marriage. I am like I vigilant about my marriage. I am like I vigilant about my marriage. I am like I am deeply in love with my wife. Best am deeply in love with my wife. Best am deeply in love with my wife. Best friend. We we play laugh and joy. We're friend. We we play laugh and joy. We're friend. We we play laugh and joy. We're close to being empty nesters and we're close to being empty nesters and we're close to being empty nesters and we're not going to lament that long. I can not going to lament that long. I can not going to lament that long. I can tell you that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. tell you that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. tell you that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We we will be sad for them to go and we We we will be sad for them to go and we We we will be sad for them to go and we are not going to need to reconnect. And are not going to need to reconnect. And are not going to need to reconnect. And and so what what just happened here? And and so what what just happened here? And and so what what just happened here? And I was super disoriented by that. It I was super disoriented by that. It I was super disoriented by that. It really threw me for a loop. And so man, really threw me for a loop. And so man, really threw me for a loop. And so man, I I went and met with some people that I I went and met with some people that I I went and met with some people that could maybe help me make sense of that. could maybe help me make sense of that. could maybe help me make sense of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like like what what happened here? And Like like what what happened here? And Like like what what happened here? And my elders were I know I mean I've seen my elders were I know I mean I've seen my elders were I know I mean I've seen what some people have said about my what some people have said about my what some people have said about my elders. It looked heavy-handed to some. elders. It looked heavy-handed to some. elders. It looked heavy-handed to some. It looked and but man, those guys love It looked and but man, those guys love It looked and but man, those guys love me and they love the word of God. They me and they love the word of God. They me and they love the word of God. They love my family. And this whole thing love my family. And this whole thing love my family. And this whole thing nearly killed them.

nearly killed them. nearly killed them. And and I And and I And and I I've got no resentment towards them. I've got no resentment towards them. I've got no resentment towards them. I've got no and I'll tell you for the I've got no and I'll tell you for the I've got no and I'll tell you for the people that would comment about my people that would comment about my people that would comment about my humility, I was only able to humble humility, I was only able to humble humility, I was only able to humble myself underneath them cuz they're not myself underneath them cuz they're not myself underneath them cuz they're not subversive men. They're not power subversive men. They're not power subversive men. They're not power grabbers. They're not trying to grabbers. They're not trying to grabbers. They're not trying to undermine. They're not but they also undermine. They're not but they also undermine. They're not but they also don't think I'm some sort of untouchable don't think I'm some sort of untouchable don't think I'm some sort of untouchable hero that they've got to protect. And hero that they've got to protect. And hero that they've got to protect. And and so that was the and so that was the and so that was the to put you on leave, right? to put you on leave, right? to put you on leave, right? They did. Well, there was a They did. Well, there was a They did. Well, there was a there was an external audit that we did. there was an external audit that we did. there was an external audit that we did. And that that what what came out was And that that what what came out was And that that what what came out was that there were certainly things that that there were certainly things that that there were certainly things that have been communicated to me in regards have been communicated to me in regards have been communicated to me in regards to expectations about a man in my role to expectations about a man in my role to expectations about a man in my role that I failed to live into. that I failed to live into. that I failed to live into. And that I'm not above the law. And that I'm not above the law. And that I'm not above the law. And And And um um um And so yeah, for whatever whatever else And so yeah, for whatever whatever else And so yeah, for whatever whatever else we we we you know, armchair quarterback on Monday you know, armchair quarterback on Monday you know, armchair quarterback on Monday morning, Monday morning quarterback, it morning, Monday morning quarterback, it morning, Monday morning quarterback, it it I was it I was it I was happy is probably the wrong word.

happy is probably the wrong word. happy is probably the wrong word. Um Um Um My understanding biblically My understanding biblically My understanding biblically is that those men is that those men is that those men um have been given um have been given um have been given a charge by God. a charge by God. a charge by God. Um and and that I Um and and that I Um and and that I alongside of them and under them are to alongside of them and under them are to alongside of them and under them are to steward well um the calling God's given steward well um the calling God's given steward well um the calling God's given me. And so me. And so me. And so this was the first time that it was this was the first time that it was this was the first time that it was tested at that level. tested at that level. tested at that level. And um and man, I'm I'm so happy happy And um and man, I'm I'm so happy happy And um and man, I'm I'm so happy happy is the right word to say the fabric is the right word to say the fabric is the right word to say the fabric held. held. held. Yeah, it held. Yeah, it held. Yeah, it held. What is your new protocol What is your new protocol What is your new protocol Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. understanding, and what is your advice understanding, and what is your advice understanding, and what is your advice to everybody else on DMing? Because to everybody else on DMing? Because to everybody else on DMing? Because we've had we've had we've had uh and I'm not saying this is the same uh and I'm not saying this is the same uh and I'm not saying this is the same situation at all, but we've had numerous situation at all, but we've had numerous situation at all, but we've had numerous female voices on here saying, "Hey, the female voices on here saying, "Hey, the female voices on here saying, "Hey, the Billy Graham rule is from another Billy Graham rule is from another Billy Graham rule is from another century. Yeah. Um we want access to male century. Yeah. Um we want access to male century. Yeah. Um we want access to male leaders for development, etc. etc. at leaders for development, etc. etc. at leaders for development, etc. etc. at the same rate that men get them. Um do the same rate that men get them. Um do the same rate that men get them. Um do you have a different What is your you have a different What is your you have a different What is your understanding now?

understanding now? understanding now? No, I I one, I think I agree. I don't No, I I one, I think I agree. I don't No, I I one, I think I agree. I don't think I agree with their take. think I agree with their take. think I agree with their take. I do think though, and and here's where I do think though, and and here's where I do think though, and and here's where like I think an occasional DM with a like I think an occasional DM with a like I think an occasional DM with a woman is fine. I I think any kind of woman is fine. I I think any kind of woman is fine. I I think any kind of consistent consistent consistent interaction is just probably too interaction is just probably too interaction is just probably too dangerous. dangerous. dangerous. And too too friendly, too familiar. Like And too too friendly, too familiar. Like And too too friendly, too familiar. Like it wasn't leadership development here. it wasn't leadership development here. it wasn't leadership development here. Read this and talk on XYZ. It was more Read this and talk on XYZ. It was more Read this and talk on XYZ. It was more just casual banter. That's right. In just casual banter. That's right. In just casual banter. That's right. In fact, it was none of that. It was none fact, it was none of that. It was none fact, it was none of that. It was none of, "Hey, have you ever read, you know, of, "Hey, have you ever read, you know, of, "Hey, have you ever read, you know, Gavin Ortberg's new book?" It wasn't any Gavin Ortberg's new book?" It wasn't any Gavin Ortberg's new book?" It wasn't any of that. It was just silliness. of that. It was just silliness. of that. It was just silliness. And And so, I I am And And so, I I am And And so, I I am I Yes and amen on women having an access I Yes and amen on women having an access I Yes and amen on women having an access and say and view and and say and view and and say and view and And yet, in a hypersexualized culture, And yet, in a hypersexualized culture, And yet, in a hypersexualized culture, and in in a culture where something like and in in a culture where something like and in in a culture where something like Instagram can lull you into something Instagram can lull you into something Instagram can lull you into something that that you're just not paying that that you're just not paying that that you're just not paying attention to because it's not like text.

attention to because it's not like text. attention to because it's not like text. You You're probably not going to You You're probably not going to You You're probably not going to Instagram to check a DM from this Instagram to check a DM from this Instagram to check a DM from this person. You're going to post or to see person. You're going to post or to see person. You're going to post or to see or to check out a reel or And then, or to check out a reel or And then, or to check out a reel or And then, boom, there's that little red light or boom, there's that little red light or boom, there's that little red light or that red dot. And so, you click on it, that red dot. And so, you click on it, that red dot. And so, you click on it, and then before you know it, um And so, and then before you know it, um And so, and then before you know it, um And so, there's a way that that platform and there's a way that that platform and there's a way that that platform and maybe other social media platforms maybe other social media platforms maybe other social media platforms maybe numbs you to just how frequently maybe numbs you to just how frequently maybe numbs you to just how frequently you're interacting. Um And so, it Yes, you're interacting. Um And so, it Yes, you're interacting. Um And so, it Yes, if your leadership development, if your leadership development, if your leadership development, occasional DMing back and forth. occasional DMing back and forth. occasional DMing back and forth. Otherwise, I would just put it in your Otherwise, I would just put it in your Otherwise, I would just put it in your normal channels. normal channels. normal channels. Um Um Um And And then, live and die in your And And then, live and die in your And And then, live and die in your normal channels. That's how I That's normal channels. That's how I That's normal channels. That's how I That's what I'm doing now. Being email or what I'm doing now. Being email or what I'm doing now. Being email or That's right. That's right. That's right. Other Okay. Yeah. The other The other Other Okay. Yeah. The other The other Other Okay. Yeah. The other The other thing that you hinted at, and I don't thing that you hinted at, and I don't thing that you hinted at, and I don't know whether you have any reflections on know whether you have any reflections on know whether you have any reflections on it, if not, we'll move on cuz I do have it, if not, we'll move on cuz I do have it, if not, we'll move on cuz I do have other questions. Um I don't think like other questions. Um I don't think like other questions. Um I don't think like you you What you hinted at is power you you What you hinted at is power you you What you hinted at is power imbalance, right? Like, you have a very imbalance, right? Like, you have a very imbalance, right? Like, you have a very specific role as a senior pastor of a specific role as a senior pastor of a specific role as a senior pastor of a very large influential church. You have very large influential church. You have very large influential church. You have a national platform.

a national platform. a national platform. I'm not very good at realizing that I I'm not very good at realizing that I I'm not very good at realizing that I have influence. I just think of myself have influence. I just think of myself have influence. I just think of myself as Carey and the guy who broke a plate as Carey and the guy who broke a plate as Carey and the guy who broke a plate when he was unloading the dishwasher and when he was unloading the dishwasher and when he was unloading the dishwasher and Uh, was lucky to get all this technology Uh, was lucky to get all this technology Uh, was lucky to get all this technology working. Like, I have a very working. Like, I have a very working. Like, I have a very normalized normalized normalized view of my position, view of my position, view of my position, not realizing that, oh my goodness, not realizing that, oh my goodness, not realizing that, oh my goodness, there's tens of thousands of people, you there's tens of thousands of people, you there's tens of thousands of people, you know, that we influence in an episode know, that we influence in an episode know, that we influence in an episode like this, etc., etc. Was Was any of like this, etc., etc. Was Was any of like this, etc., etc. Was Was any of that in the background where that in the background where that in the background where Yeah, I Well, I certainly think so. I I Yeah, I Well, I certainly think so. I I Yeah, I Well, I certainly think so. I I don't I mean, if anyone's ever don't I mean, if anyone's ever don't I mean, if anyone's ever interacted with me or come across from interacted with me or come across from interacted with me or come across from me, like this Matt Chandler character me, like this Matt Chandler character me, like this Matt Chandler character that, you know, like that I don't that, you know, like that I don't that, you know, like that I don't pretty like pretty like pretty like Like, I just I just feel like me, and Like, I just I just feel like me, and Like, I just I just feel like me, and I'm not I mean, I don't And And so, I I'm not I mean, I don't And And so, I I'm not I mean, I don't And And so, I don't even think in those categories. don't even think in those categories. don't even think in those categories. Um, but I do need to I do need to grow Um, but I do need to I do need to grow Um, but I do need to I do need to grow in some understanding of those. Yeah, to in some understanding of those. Yeah, to in some understanding of those. Yeah, to be aware aware that, hey, if I'm if I'm be aware aware that, hey, if I'm if I'm be aware aware that, hey, if I'm if I'm messaging somebody, it does not carry messaging somebody, it does not carry messaging somebody, it does not carry the same weight the same weight the same weight as if I wasn't doing what I am now, as if I wasn't doing what I am now, as if I wasn't doing what I am now, right?

right? right? Yeah, and I've I've learned that in Yeah, and I've I've learned that in Yeah, and I've I've learned that in other areas of my leadership. I just other areas of my leadership. I just other areas of my leadership. I just wasn't thinking clearly in this area. wasn't thinking clearly in this area. wasn't thinking clearly in this area. True, true. True, true. True, true. because I certainly know because I certainly know because I certainly know like like like there are certain men and women on my there are certain men and women on my there are certain men and women on my staff that if they need to be corrected, staff that if they need to be corrected, staff that if they need to be corrected, it probably doesn't need to come from it probably doesn't need to come from it probably doesn't need to come from me. me. me. Um, that the weightiness of my voice, Um, that the weightiness of my voice, Um, that the weightiness of my voice, even if it was as sweet as possible, even if it was as sweet as possible, even if it was as sweet as possible, could be absolutely crushing to them. could be absolutely crushing to them. could be absolutely crushing to them. But, they might be able to hear it from But, they might be able to hear it from But, they might be able to hear it from somebody else. Yeah, all you have to say somebody else. Yeah, all you have to say somebody else. Yeah, all you have to say to somebody is like, "How was my to somebody is like, "How was my to somebody is like, "How was my message?" "Yeah, it was good. It was message?" "Yeah, it was good. It was message?" "Yeah, it was good. It was fine." And then they they can't sleep fine." And then they they can't sleep fine." And then they they can't sleep for 8 days, right? for 8 days, right? for 8 days, right? Well, a a true story would be I Well, a a true story would be I Well, a a true story would be I um um um we we had one of our guys on staff that we we had one of our guys on staff that we we had one of our guys on staff that he's not in the worship department, but he's not in the worship department, but he's not in the worship department, but he does play and sing. he does play and sing. he does play and sing. And he led out on a weekend, and then And he led out on a weekend, and then And he led out on a weekend, and then when we were like after action review on when we were like after action review on when we were like after action review on the service, I was asking what key we the service, I was asking what key we the service, I was asking what key we sang that song in. That was my question. sang that song in. That was my question. sang that song in. That was my question. Was it what key that And I was just Was it what key that And I was just Was it what key that And I was just explaining that I had a hard time explaining that I had a hard time explaining that I had a hard time singing in whatever key that is, and singing in whatever key that is, and singing in whatever key that is, and then I just clarified, but that happens then I just clarified, but that happens then I just clarified, but that happens to me in other play like I can never to me in other play like I can never to me in other play like I can never follow Chris Tomlin. I just feel like follow Chris Tomlin. I just feel like follow Chris Tomlin. I just feel like I'm blowing out my folds. So here I'm I'm blowing out my folds. So here I'm I'm blowing out my folds. So here I'm referencing like a guy that's got more referencing like a guy that's got more referencing like a guy that's got more Dove Awards than the ocean has sand, and Dove Awards than the ocean has sand, and Dove Awards than the ocean has sand, and um you know, Emmys and I mean just um you know, Emmys and I mean just um you know, Emmys and I mean just Tomlin.

Tomlin. Tomlin. And but this guy was absolutely crushed. And but this guy was absolutely crushed. And but this guy was absolutely crushed. And I was just like he didn't want to And I was just like he didn't want to And I was just like he didn't want to lead worship anymore. He didn't want to lead worship anymore. He didn't want to lead worship anymore. He didn't want to do it anymore. He just decided to serve. do it anymore. He just decided to serve. do it anymore. He just decided to serve. And it wasn't even the wrong key. It was And it wasn't even the wrong key. It was And it wasn't even the wrong key. It was just like what key was that? Was it just like what key was that? Was it just like what key was that? Was it different than we normally sing it? And different than we normally sing it? And different than we normally sing it? And so I am even now I mean that's a more so I am even now I mean that's a more so I am even now I mean that's a more that just happened like a few months that just happened like a few months that just happened like a few months ago. And so there are times that I'm ago. And so there are times that I'm ago. And so there are times that I'm even now I'm just like, can I be the one even now I'm just like, can I be the one even now I'm just like, can I be the one that says this? Or do I need to let that says this? Or do I need to let that says this? Or do I need to let somebody else say this? So I've learned somebody else say this? So I've learned somebody else say this? So I've learned it in other areas of my life, but this it in other areas of my life, but this it in other areas of my life, but this was an area I just was not thinking that was an area I just was not thinking that was an area I just was not thinking that way. Mainly because maybe we'd already way. Mainly because maybe we'd already way. Mainly because maybe we'd already had dinner a couple of times and we were had dinner a couple of times and we were had dinner a couple of times and we were having this friendship that was having this friendship that was having this friendship that was developing. developing. developing. Um and so I don't listen I still don't Um and so I don't listen I still don't Um and so I don't listen I still don't fully understand all that happened, but fully understand all that happened, but fully understand all that happened, but I do have new ways of living because of I do have new ways of living because of I do have new ways of living because of it for sure. Sure, sure. Well, I want to it for sure. Sure, sure. Well, I want to it for sure. Sure, sure. Well, I want to talk about you and Lauren because we've talk about you and Lauren because we've talk about you and Lauren because we've had the opportunity to hang out. She's had the opportunity to hang out. She's had the opportunity to hang out. She's amazing. And I would say she's a leader amazing. And I would say she's a leader amazing. And I would say she's a leader and a personality in her own right. I and a personality in her own right. I and a personality in her own right. I mean she does lead worship etc. etc. mean she does lead worship etc. etc. mean she does lead worship etc. etc. What are um What are um What are um some of the lessons you and Lauren have some of the lessons you and Lauren have some of the lessons you and Lauren have learned about having an enduring learned about having an enduring learned about having an enduring marriage when when you both have marriage when when you both have marriage when when you both have leadership chops if I can say it that leadership chops if I can say it that leadership chops if I can say it that way. Yeah, well she's um you know, I way. Yeah, well she's um you know, I way. Yeah, well she's um you know, I I honestly say I've got about three or I honestly say I've got about three or I honestly say I've got about three or four things I'm exceptional at. And then four things I'm exceptional at. And then four things I'm exceptional at. And then it's a cliff once I get out of those it's a cliff once I get out of those it's a cliff once I get out of those three or four things. Like it's just not three or four things. Like it's just not three or four things. Like it's just not there at all. Where Lauren is unique there at all. Where Lauren is unique there at all. Where Lauren is unique in that she's written books. She's I in that she's written books. She's I in that she's written books. She's I mean she's teaching at a conference

mean she's teaching at a conference mean she's teaching at a conference tomorrow. She has written songs. She can tomorrow. She has written songs. She can tomorrow. She has written songs. She can sing. She can paint. She can like I'm sing. She can paint. She can like I'm sing. She can paint. She can like I'm not quite sure what she can't do. Um and not quite sure what she can't do. Um and not quite sure what she can't do. Um and what I wanted to commit to early on what I wanted to commit to early on what I wanted to commit to early on was creating room for her to grow and was creating room for her to grow and was creating room for her to grow and use her gifts as narrowly or as broadly use her gifts as narrowly or as broadly use her gifts as narrowly or as broadly as she would like. And in different as she would like. And in different as she would like. And in different seasons, that's mean that's meant seasons, that's mean that's meant seasons, that's mean that's meant different things. different things. different things. When the kids were younger, oftentimes When the kids were younger, oftentimes When the kids were younger, oftentimes that would mean I would need to adjust that would mean I would need to adjust that would mean I would need to adjust maybe when I was studying or when I maybe when I was studying or when I maybe when I was studying or when I would get up to the church before we can would get up to the church before we can would get up to the church before we can services or so that she could do the services or so that she could do the services or so that she could do the things that she felt called to. And and things that she felt called to. And and things that she felt called to. And and so like I said, it's been different so like I said, it's been different so like I said, it's been different different times, different seasons. And different times, different seasons. And different times, different seasons. And and like even right now, and like even right now, and like even right now, she is speaking at an event this weekend she is speaking at an event this weekend she is speaking at an event this weekend and she feels a little jostled right and she feels a little jostled right and she feels a little jostled right now. It hadn't come together for her. now. It hadn't come together for her. now. It hadn't come together for her. And so I I just told her And so I I just told her And so I I just told her let me take I mean right before I came let me take I mean right before I came let me take I mean right before I came walked over here and and got on this walked over here and and got on this walked over here and and got on this computer. Why don't you go out to the computer. Why don't you go out to the computer. Why don't you go out to the river cabin? We have a little place on river cabin? We have a little place on river cabin? We have a little place on the river 2 hours from here. Why don't the river 2 hours from here. Why don't the river 2 hours from here. Why don't you take your Bible, take your computer, you take your Bible, take your computer, you take your Bible, take your computer, head out to the river cabin, spend the head out to the river cabin, spend the head out to the river cabin, spend the night Thursday so you can be all by night Thursday so you can be all by night Thursday so you can be all by yourself, wake up Friday morning, do yourself, wake up Friday morning, do yourself, wake up Friday morning, do spend as much time with the Lord as you spend as much time with the Lord as you spend as much time with the Lord as you want and I'll handle Nora's volleyball.

want and I'll handle Nora's volleyball. want and I'll handle Nora's volleyball. And this this not a great week for that And this this not a great week for that And this this not a great week for that to happen. I mean I've got an event I'm to happen. I mean I've got an event I'm to happen. I mean I've got an event I'm speaking at Saturday morning, we have speaking at Saturday morning, we have speaking at Saturday morning, we have services Saturday night, services Sunday services Saturday night, services Sunday services Saturday night, services Sunday morning, morning, morning, got a fundraiser Friday night. I mean got a fundraiser Friday night. I mean got a fundraiser Friday night. I mean it's like my world's crazy. it's like my world's crazy. it's like my world's crazy. But I'm I am committed. Today will be But I'm I am committed. Today will be But I'm I am committed. Today will be long for me. It will go later into the long for me. It will go later into the long for me. It will go later into the evening than I would like. But I'm going evening than I would like. But I'm going evening than I would like. But I'm going to do that so that Lauren can go do the to do that so that Lauren can go do the to do that so that Lauren can go do the thing that God's given her to do. And thing that God's given her to do. And thing that God's given her to do. And she has likewise been as committed to me she has likewise been as committed to me she has likewise been as committed to me in that way as she could possibly be. in that way as she could possibly be. in that way as she could possibly be. And even she texted me. I was driving And even she texted me. I was driving And even she texted me. I was driving home from our staff prayer home from our staff prayer home from our staff prayer and she said, "Are you sure it's okay and she said, "Are you sure it's okay and she said, "Are you sure it's okay for me to go to the river?" And I was for me to go to the river?" And I was for me to go to the river?" And I was like, "What? Why are you at like you like, "What? Why are you at like you like, "What? Why are you at like you know how many times you've done this for know how many times you've done this for know how many times you've done this for me? me? me? But like, I mean, here I'm trying to But like, I mean, here I'm trying to But like, I mean, here I'm trying to give this to you and you've given this give this to you and you've given this give this to you and you've given this very thing to me like once a quarter. I very thing to me like once a quarter. I very thing to me like once a quarter. I go out there for three or four days just go out there for three or four days just go out there for three or four days just to pray and fast and be alone. And then to pray and fast and be alone. And then to pray and fast and be alone. And then here she is going, "Are you sure?" I'm here she is going, "Are you sure?" I'm here she is going, "Are you sure?" I'm like, "Oh my gosh, get out there. What like, "Oh my gosh, get out there. What like, "Oh my gosh, get out there. What you have endured so that I can get out you have endured so that I can get out you have endured so that I can get out there is monumentally greater." And so there is monumentally greater." And so there is monumentally greater." And so it's looked different ways in different it's looked different ways in different it's looked different ways in different seasons, but kind of the banner, the seasons, but kind of the banner, the seasons, but kind of the banner, the commitment is I am committed to her commitment is I am committed to her commitment is I am committed to her growing and using her gifts as narrowly growing and using her gifts as narrowly growing and using her gifts as narrowly or as broadly as she would like, and she or as broadly as she would like, and she or as broadly as she would like, and she has There's been a lot of reciprocity of has There's been a lot of reciprocity of has There's been a lot of reciprocity of that for me.

that for me. that for me. Wow. That's uh that's inspiring. Wow. That's uh that's inspiring. Wow. That's uh that's inspiring. And do you have any other uh And do you have any other uh And do you have any other uh advice, any other advice, any other advice, any other advice, any other advice, any other advice, any other tips, habits, rhythms, disciplines that tips, habits, rhythms, disciplines that tips, habits, rhythms, disciplines that have made your marriage work in the end? have made your marriage work in the end? have made your marriage work in the end? You mentioned that it was yeah, a couple You mentioned that it was yeah, a couple You mentioned that it was yeah, a couple of rough years, too, like I think almost of rough years, too, like I think almost of rough years, too, like I think almost anybody who's been married for 20 anybody who's been married for 20 anybody who's been married for 20 minutes had a couple of rough patches. minutes had a couple of rough patches. minutes had a couple of rough patches. Yeah. So, uh any other lessons from the Yeah. So, uh any other lessons from the Yeah. So, uh any other lessons from the the field? Um I I think one that I the field? Um I I think one that I the field? Um I I think one that I didn't even realize I was doing um until didn't even realize I was doing um until didn't even realize I was doing um until somebody pointed out to me was somebody pointed out to me was somebody pointed out to me was Lauren is my first call. And what I mean Lauren is my first call. And what I mean Lauren is my first call. And what I mean by that is if somebody cancels lunch on by that is if somebody cancels lunch on by that is if somebody cancels lunch on me or somebody's a no-show for a me or somebody's a no-show for a me or somebody's a no-show for a meeting, I will always repurpose that meeting, I will always repurpose that meeting, I will always repurpose that for Lauren. I will call her first, do for Lauren. I will call her first, do for Lauren. I will call her first, do you have lunch open today? Or what are you have lunch open today? Or what are you have lunch open today? Or what are you doing right now? Do you want to meet you doing right now? Do you want to meet you doing right now? Do you want to meet me for a cup of coffee? And we we have me for a cup of coffee? And we we have me for a cup of coffee? And we we have our normal rhythms of date nights and our normal rhythms of date nights and our normal rhythms of date nights and stuff like that, but that Lauren's my stuff like that, but that Lauren's my stuff like that, but that Lauren's my first call, I guess rule, first call, I guess rule, first call, I guess rule, um it really was more just a way of um it really was more just a way of um it really was more just a way of doing things for me where if I had a gap doing things for me where if I had a gap doing things for me where if I had a gap open in my calendar, I'm filling it with open in my calendar, I'm filling it with open in my calendar, I'm filling it with Lauren. I'm giving Lauren the first shot Lauren. I'm giving Lauren the first shot Lauren. I'm giving Lauren the first shot at it before I use it for something at it before I use it for something at it before I use it for something else.

else. else. And that has given us time to connect, And that has given us time to connect, And that has given us time to connect, especially in busy seasons, and and in, especially in busy seasons, and and in, especially in busy seasons, and and in, you know, where there's a lot of you know, where there's a lot of you know, where there's a lot of wildness going on. Like right now, my my wildness going on. Like right now, my my wildness going on. Like right now, my my 14-year-old daughter's like 5'11" and 14-year-old daughter's like 5'11" and 14-year-old daughter's like 5'11" and just a little stud volleyball player and just a little stud volleyball player and just a little stud volleyball player and that is dominating our lives right now. that is dominating our lives right now. that is dominating our lives right now. And so this kind of thing where I have a And so this kind of thing where I have a And so this kind of thing where I have a lunch cancels, "Hey, do you have time lunch cancels, "Hey, do you have time lunch cancels, "Hey, do you have time for lunch?" Or a meeting cancels, "Hey, for lunch?" Or a meeting cancels, "Hey, for lunch?" Or a meeting cancels, "Hey, do you want to get together for a cup of do you want to get together for a cup of do you want to get together for a cup of coffee for the next hour and 30 coffee for the next hour and 30 coffee for the next hour and 30 minutes?" minutes?" minutes?" Like to like let those things like be Like to like let those things like be Like to like let those things like be mortar in the brick wall of our marriage mortar in the brick wall of our marriage mortar in the brick wall of our marriage it is super helpful and it's something it is super helpful and it's something it is super helpful and it's something that happens to everybody. Everybody that happens to everybody. Everybody that happens to everybody. Everybody gets a meeting moved or a guy "Oh man, I gets a meeting moved or a guy "Oh man, I gets a meeting moved or a guy "Oh man, I thought that was Thursday. I didn't thought that was Thursday. I didn't thought that was Thursday. I didn't realize that was Wednesday." And just realize that was Wednesday." And just realize that was Wednesday." And just it's so easy then. You don't have You've it's so easy then. You don't have You've it's so easy then. You don't have You've already that that hour is already gone. already that that hour is already gone. already that that hour is already gone. So to repurpose it for Lauren has been So to repurpose it for Lauren has been So to repurpose it for Lauren has been something that I think has paid a lot of something that I think has paid a lot of something that I think has paid a lot of dividends over the years. I have never dividends over the years. I have never dividends over the years. I have never heard that and there's a lot of spouses heard that and there's a lot of spouses heard that and there's a lot of spouses right now who are rethinking what to do right now who are rethinking what to do right now who are rethinking what to do with canceled meetings. So that's really with canceled meetings. So that's really with canceled meetings. So that's really helpful.

helpful. helpful. it's I'm telling you it's it's been so it's I'm telling you it's it's been so it's I'm telling you it's it's been so great to connect with her in the middle great to connect with her in the middle great to connect with her in the middle of a wild day where I was like, "I'll of a wild day where I was like, "I'll of a wild day where I was like, "I'll see you at 8:00." And then all of a see you at 8:00." And then all of a see you at 8:00." And then all of a sudden you're like, "Or do you want to sudden you're like, "Or do you want to sudden you're like, "Or do you want to meet me up here at Marty B's coffee meet me up here at Marty B's coffee meet me up here at Marty B's coffee at 3:00 because I just got you know, I at 3:00 because I just got you know, I at 3:00 because I just got you know, I just got canceled on." just got canceled on." just got canceled on." That's great. Well, there's a lot we That's great. Well, there's a lot we That's great. Well, there's a lot we didn't get to, but I want to give you didn't get to, but I want to give you didn't get to, but I want to give you the final word. the final word. the final word. Any other things and and this won't be Any other things and and this won't be Any other things and and this won't be the the last time you're on the podcast. the the last time you're on the podcast. the the last time you're on the podcast. So we can we can do a round two for So we can we can do a round two for So we can we can do a round two for sure. sure. sure. What else is on your radar right now? What else is on your radar right now? What else is on your radar right now? What are you seeing? Anything else you What are you seeing? Anything else you What are you seeing? Anything else you want to want to want to talk about or address before we wrap up? talk about or address before we wrap up? talk about or address before we wrap up? The thing that's burning in me right The thing that's burning in me right The thing that's burning in me right now, which is really driving almost now, which is really driving almost now, which is really driving almost every project I'm working on is that every project I'm working on is that every project I'm working on is that this this this this true reality this true reality this true reality that this is our moment that God has that this is our moment that God has that this is our moment that God has given to us. And so you look out at the given to us. And so you look out at the given to us. And so you look out at the horizon, you got the election coming horizon, you got the election coming horizon, you got the election coming here in the states, you got just a here in the states, you got just a here in the states, you got just a disaster out there. disaster out there. disaster out there. And man, what an opportunity we have.

And man, what an opportunity we have. And man, what an opportunity we have. And and so I I mean I'm just saying it And and so I I mean I'm just saying it And and so I I mean I'm just saying it what an opportunity we have right now. I what an opportunity we have right now. I what an opportunity we have right now. I mean it is hard and awful out there. And mean it is hard and awful out there. And mean it is hard and awful out there. And this is where the gospel actually shines this is where the gospel actually shines this is where the gospel actually shines brightest. And and so as often as I can brightest. And and so as often as I can brightest. And and so as often as I can say to anybody in this season, I'm say to anybody in this season, I'm say to anybody in this season, I'm saying you were made for the day and the saying you were made for the day and the saying you were made for the day and the day was made for you. Like C.S. Lewis day was made for you. Like C.S. Lewis day was made for you. Like C.S. Lewis isn't coming to bail us out. G.K. isn't coming to bail us out. G.K. isn't coming to bail us out. G.K. Chesterton he he's not showing up to Chesterton he he's not showing up to Chesterton he he's not showing up to critique our political environment. They critique our political environment. They critique our political environment. They had their day. This one's ours. And and had their day. This one's ours. And and had their day. This one's ours. And and I I I just believe biblically I I I just believe biblically I I I just believe biblically that we've been uniquely wired for it that we've been uniquely wired for it that we've been uniquely wired for it and uniquely placed for it. And and so I and uniquely placed for it. And and so I and uniquely placed for it. And and so I the the the the the the the Christian religion does not belong the Christian religion does not belong the Christian religion does not belong to blue-checked celebrity pastors. It to blue-checked celebrity pastors. It to blue-checked celebrity pastors. It belongs to faithful men and women who belongs to faithful men and women who belongs to faithful men and women who understand that God wants to profound understand that God wants to profound understand that God wants to profound profoundly and powerfully use them where profoundly and powerfully use them where profoundly and powerfully use them where they are. Uh so I this just happened they are. Uh so I this just happened they are. Uh so I this just happened here, so I'll tell it. Um we have a here, so I'll tell it. Um we have a here, so I'll tell it. Um we have a ministry born of the Village Church uh ministry born of the Village Church uh ministry born of the Village Church uh to women who have been rescued out of to women who have been rescued out of to women who have been rescued out of trafficking.

trafficking. trafficking. And there's this dentist at our church. And there's this dentist at our church. And there's this dentist at our church. He's not an elder, he's not a deacon. I He's not an elder, he's not a deacon. I He's not an elder, he's not a deacon. I think he led a home group for like a think he led a home group for like a think he led a home group for like a year and a half and then stopped. Um and year and a half and then stopped. Um and year and a half and then stopped. Um and there's this woman that there's this woman that there's this woman that I mean just saved from however horrific I mean just saved from however horrific I mean just saved from however horrific you can imagine, it was exponentially you can imagine, it was exponentially you can imagine, it was exponentially worse. And and she's come to know Jesus, worse. And and she's come to know Jesus, worse. And and she's come to know Jesus, but man, she's got a lot to grow through but man, she's got a lot to grow through but man, she's got a lot to grow through coming out of what she's grown out of. coming out of what she's grown out of. coming out of what she's grown out of. And man, she made some significant And man, she made some significant And man, she made some significant mistakes and CPS got involved and was mistakes and CPS got involved and was mistakes and CPS got involved and was going to take her children. And this going to take her children. And this going to take her children. And this dentist and his wife have taken custody dentist and his wife have taken custody dentist and his wife have taken custody of her children until she finishes 2.0 of her children until she finishes 2.0 of her children until she finishes 2.0 and gets back up on her feet so that CPS and gets back up on her feet so that CPS and gets back up on her feet so that CPS doesn't take them and throw them into doesn't take them and throw them into doesn't take them and throw them into foster service. And I just thought this foster service. And I just thought this foster service. And I just thought this guy, this dentist who's not an elder and guy, this dentist who's not an elder and guy, this dentist who's not an elder and not a deacon, he's a dentist, not a deacon, he's a dentist, not a deacon, he's a dentist, he is living out the gospel in this he is living out the gospel in this he is living out the gospel in this profound and beautiful way that's profound and beautiful way that's profound and beautiful way that's pushing back darkness and establishing pushing back darkness and establishing pushing back darkness and establishing light. Look, this could this could that light. Look, this could this could that light. Look, this could this could that simple act could by the grace of God simple act could by the grace of God simple act could by the grace of God change generations. It could crush a change generations. It could crush a change generations. It could crush a dark horrific generational line and dark horrific generational line and dark horrific generational line and create a whole new one where Christ is create a whole new one where Christ is create a whole new one where Christ is king and life is transformed. And and I king and life is transformed. And and I king and life is transformed. And and I wish the church wasn't so anxious and wish the church wasn't so anxious and wish the church wasn't so anxious and afraid right now and would live into the afraid right now and would live into the afraid right now and would live into the gospel as as is our opportunity. And gospel as as is our opportunity. And gospel as as is our opportunity. And that that that's what the book's about that that that's what the book's about that that that's what the book's about in May 7th. That's what my pocket I mean in May 7th. That's what my pocket I mean in May 7th. That's what my pocket I mean that's everything I'm talking about

that's everything I'm talking about that's everything I'm talking about right now is this reality that we were right now is this reality that we were right now is this reality that we were made for this day and it was made for made for this day and it was made for made for this day and it was made for us. And and that's why I'm most pumped us. And and that's why I'm most pumped us. And and that's why I'm most pumped about Gen Z starting to take over the about Gen Z starting to take over the about Gen Z starting to take over the church cuz this stuff's intuitive to church cuz this stuff's intuitive to church cuz this stuff's intuitive to them in a way that it's scary for us. them in a way that it's scary for us. them in a way that it's scary for us. But but that's what's on my heart, But but that's what's on my heart, But but that's what's on my heart, Carey. That's where I I mean you can I Carey. That's where I I mean you can I Carey. That's where I I mean you can I just get animated about the idea. I can just get animated about the idea. I can just get animated about the idea. I can see it. I can see it. So, you do have a see it. I can see it. So, you do have a see it. I can see it. So, you do have a new book, you have a podcast. Tell us new book, you have a podcast. Tell us new book, you have a podcast. Tell us about those. Well, that So, they're both about those. Well, that So, they're both about those. Well, that So, they're both called The Overcomers. That's probably called The Overcomers. That's probably called The Overcomers. That's probably bad marketing. bad marketing. bad marketing. Um the podcast is just me interviewing Um the podcast is just me interviewing Um the podcast is just me interviewing people that have been through the stuff people that have been through the stuff people that have been through the stuff that all of us think we wouldn't survive that all of us think we wouldn't survive that all of us think we wouldn't survive living through. And they've come out the living through. And they've come out the living through. And they've come out the other side um other side um other side um still loving Jesus. Not not without a still loving Jesus. Not not without a still loving Jesus. Not not without a limp. Not and and I was really committed limp. Not and and I was really committed limp. Not and and I was really committed to I I don't want the shiny story. I to I I don't want the shiny story. I to I I don't want the shiny story. I don't want the silver bullet. Uh I want don't want the silver bullet. Uh I want don't want the silver bullet. Uh I want the hard one that still there's some the hard one that still there's some the hard one that still there's some wrestle in. Um because sanctification's wrestle in. Um because sanctification's wrestle in. Um because sanctification's not pretty and it's rarely up and to the not pretty and it's rarely up and to the not pretty and it's rarely up and to the right. And so the podcast is just me right. And so the podcast is just me right. And so the podcast is just me interviewing interviewing interviewing those people. Um and letting them be those people. Um and letting them be those people. Um and letting them be very honest. So, it is like a PG-13 very honest. So, it is like a PG-13 very honest. So, it is like a PG-13 podcast. It's not uh as the Christian podcast. It's not uh as the Christian podcast. It's not uh as the Christian radio station says safe for the whole radio station says safe for the whole radio station says safe for the whole family. Um and then um the book um is family. Um and then um the book um is family. Um and then um the book um is the same idea, except I I walk us the same idea, except I I walk us the same idea, except I I walk us through the book of Revelation, which through the book of Revelation, which through the book of Revelation, which was given to the church for such a was given to the church for such a was given to the church for such a moment as this, to put steel in the moment as this, to put steel in the moment as this, to put steel in the spine, to let you see Christ enthroned spine, to let you see Christ enthroned spine, to let you see Christ enthroned and victorious, and know that victory is and victorious, and know that victory is and victorious, and know that victory is yours, regardless of what you're seeing

yours, regardless of what you're seeing yours, regardless of what you're seeing in front of you, and to live into that. in front of you, and to live into that. in front of you, and to live into that. And so those are the two major projects And so those are the two major projects And so those are the two major projects right now. right now. right now. It's incredible. Matt, thank you so It's incredible. Matt, thank you so It's incredible. Matt, thank you so much. Thanks for being so open, so much. Thanks for being so open, so much. Thanks for being so open, so transparent, and so helpful in this transparent, and so helpful in this transparent, and so helpful in this conversation. If people want to connect conversation. If people want to connect conversation. If people want to connect with you, the book's available widely, with you, the book's available widely, with you, the book's available widely, podcast anywhere you listen. podcast anywhere you listen. podcast anywhere you listen. Where do they find you online these Where do they find you online these Where do they find you online these days? So, you know, days? So, you know, days? So, you know, pastormattchandler.com pastormattchandler.com pastormattchandler.com is there's a lot of things there, but is there's a lot of things there, but is there's a lot of things there, but I'm also YouTube, Spotify, it's it's I'm also YouTube, Spotify, it's it's I'm also YouTube, Spotify, it's it's just everywhere. All the all the usual just everywhere. All the all the usual just everywhere. All the all the usual places. places. places. Great. Matt, thank you so much. Great. Matt, thank you so much. Great. Matt, thank you so much. Hey, thank you, Carey. It was a good Hey, thank you, Carey. It was a good Hey, thank you, Carey. It was a good time.