The #1 Staffing Mistake Churches Make That Wastes Resources

There's three reasons that you're There's three reasons that you're overstaffed. One is that you have too overstaffed. One is that you have too overstaffed. One is that you have too much ministry that you're trying to do, much ministry that you're trying to do, much ministry that you're trying to do, right? When they're paying above that right? When they're paying above that right? When they're paying above that 55% for staffing or if they're staffed 55% for staffing or if they're staffed 55% for staffing or if they're staffed one full-time person for every 30, 35 one full-time person for every 30, 35 one full-time person for every 30, 35 people. You're either trying to do too people. You're either trying to do too people. You're either trying to do too much ministry. So, really, we're never much ministry. So, really, we're never much ministry. So, really, we're never going to have enough people. We're just going to have enough people. We're just going to have enough people. We're just way too broad in our approach on our way too broad in our approach on our way too broad in our approach on our ministry strategies. The second is ministry strategies. The second is ministry strategies. The second is Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast on YouTube. So glad Leadership Podcast on YouTube. So glad Leadership Podcast on YouTube. So glad you joined us today. Hey, is your church you joined us today. Hey, is your church you joined us today. Hey, is your church overstaffed? Answer is maybe, probably. overstaffed? Answer is maybe, probably. overstaffed? Answer is maybe, probably. We're going to talk about that and a lot We're going to talk about that and a lot We're going to talk about that and a lot of other church metric stuff with Amy of other church metric stuff with Amy of other church metric stuff with Amy Anderson. She is the principal of the Anderson. She is the principal of the Anderson. She is the principal of the Unstuck Group. And you may know the Unstuck Group. And you may know the Unstuck Group. And you may know the Unstuck Group. Tony Morgan, its founder Unstuck Group. Tony Morgan, its founder Unstuck Group. Tony Morgan, its founder and CEO, passed away very unexpectedly and CEO, passed away very unexpectedly and CEO, passed away very unexpectedly last year. We talk about the dynamics. last year. We talk about the dynamics. last year. We talk about the dynamics. What happens when your leader dies? What What happens when your leader dies? What What happens when your leader dies? What do you do? How does the organization do you do? How does the organization do you do? How does the organization continue? What about grief? All of that continue? What about grief? All of that continue? What about grief? All of that and a whole lot more. So, really glad and a whole lot more. So, really glad and a whole lot more. So, really glad you joined us today. Make sure you like, you joined us today. Make sure you like, you joined us today. Make sure you like, subscribe, leave a comment to join the subscribe, leave a comment to join the subscribe, leave a comment to join the conversation and we will get to my conversation and we will get to my conversation and we will get to my conversation with Amy Anderson right conversation with Amy Anderson right conversation with Amy Anderson right after a word from today's partners. Then after a word from today's partners. Then after a word from today's partners. Then we'll dive into the conversation. This we'll dive into the conversation. This we'll dive into the conversation. This episode is brought to you by Glue episode is brought to you by Glue episode is brought to you by Glue Messaging. So, I got to ask you, are Messaging. So, I got to ask you, are Messaging. So, I got to ask you, are your church messages hitting home or are your church messages hitting home or are your church messages hitting home or are you getting lost in the noise? Like, if you getting lost in the noise? Like, if you getting lost in the noise? Like, if you're ready to make your communication you're ready to make your communication you're ready to make your communication more personal and more effective, why more personal and more effective, why more personal and more effective, why don't you check out the new free Glue don't you check out the new free Glue don't you check out the new free Glue texting platform? With glue messaging, texting platform? With glue messaging, texting platform? With glue messaging, it's easy to segment your audience into it's easy to segment your audience into it's easy to segment your audience into groups. Think like small group leaders,

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what he was able to bring to the church. what he was able to bring to the church. And I know I speak on behalf of a lot of And I know I speak on behalf of a lot of And I know I speak on behalf of a lot of people who listen to this podcast just people who listen to this podcast just people who listen to this podcast just to to to extend, you know, my sympathies for for extend, you know, my sympathies for for extend, you know, my sympathies for for losing uh Tony. Um can you walk us losing uh Tony. Um can you walk us losing uh Tony. Um can you walk us through because there's always, you through because there's always, you through because there's always, you know, I think I know what happened with know, I think I know what happened with know, I think I know what happened with Tony. It was a very sudden passing. And Tony. It was a very sudden passing. And Tony. It was a very sudden passing. And and the thing that really surprised me and the thing that really surprised me and the thing that really surprised me is I've had a lot of meals with Tony. is I've had a lot of meals with Tony. is I've had a lot of meals with Tony. The dude eats the salad, not the fries. The dude eats the salad, not the fries. The dude eats the salad, not the fries. You know what I mean? He's fit. He takes You know what I mean? He's fit. He takes You know what I mean? He's fit. He takes good care of himself. And for his life good care of himself. And for his life good care of himself. And for his life to be cut short so quickly was, I think, to be cut short so quickly was, I think, to be cut short so quickly was, I think, a shock as well as a lot of sadness. Can a shock as well as a lot of sadness. Can a shock as well as a lot of sadness. Can So, can you tell us for those who may So, can you tell us for those who may So, can you tell us for those who may not know um kind of what happened with not know um kind of what happened with not know um kind of what happened with Tony and the Unstuck group and his his Tony and the Unstuck group and his his Tony and the Unstuck group and his his um really sad passing? Yeah. Yeah. Well, um really sad passing? Yeah. Yeah. Well, um really sad passing? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was shocking. Absolutely. You know, it was shocking. Absolutely. You know, it was shocking. Absolutely. You know, for me, and I'm sure for many others, for me, and I'm sure for many others, for me, and I'm sure for many others, it's one of those moments where you it's one of those moments where you it's one of those moments where you always remember where you were, what you always remember where you were, what you always remember where you were, what you were doing, uh, when you heard the news. were doing, uh, when you heard the news. were doing, uh, when you heard the news. And it was on Monday, September 2nd, uh, And it was on Monday, September 2nd, uh, And it was on Monday, September 2nd, uh, this past fall that he had a heart this past fall that he had a heart this past fall that he had a heart attack. And you're right, it was attack. And you're right, it was attack. And you're right, it was completely out of the blue. There was no completely out of the blue. There was no completely out of the blue. There was no forewarning. There were no signs of forewarning. There were no signs of forewarning. There were no signs of illness, nothing. In fact, those first, illness, nothing. In fact, those first, illness, nothing. In fact, those first, you know, first hours and days, we were you know, first hours and days, we were you know, first hours and days, we were hopeful for a recovery, thinking we hopeful for a recovery, thinking we hopeful for a recovery, thinking we might have to bump some of his clients might have to bump some of his clients might have to bump some of his clients back. And, you know, part of it, and you back. And, you know, part of it, and you back. And, you know, part of it, and you get this, uh, Carrie, cuz you're a get this, uh, Carrie, cuz you're a get this, uh, Carrie, cuz you're a remote team, but it was really a rough remote team, but it was really a rough remote team, but it was really a rough couple of days being a remote team couple of days being a remote team couple of days being a remote team because we weren't able to be present because we weren't able to be present because we weren't able to be present with Emily or with his family and we with Emily or with his family and we with Emily or with his family and we weren't able to be present with even one

weren't able to be present with even one weren't able to be present with even one another, right? And then the shock of another, right? And then the shock of another, right? And then the shock of Wednesday when he died. I mean, uh, it Wednesday when he died. I mean, uh, it Wednesday when he died. I mean, uh, it he was here and then he was just gone. he was here and then he was just gone. he was here and then he was just gone. And it was really, really hard to come And it was really, really hard to come And it was really, really hard to come to terms with that. He was so much more to terms with that. He was so much more to terms with that. He was so much more than our boss. Like you said, he he was than our boss. Like you said, he he was than our boss. Like you said, he he was our friend, just a faithfilled, our friend, just a faithfilled, our friend, just a faithfilled, mission-driven man to the end. And and mission-driven man to the end. And and mission-driven man to the end. And and his insights. I mean, I used to, well, his insights. I mean, I used to, well, his insights. I mean, I used to, well, still do hang on to the, you know, for still do hang on to the, you know, for still do hang on to the, you know, for the Q1, Q2, Q3. Yeah. Uh, unstuck the Q1, Q2, Q3. Yeah. Uh, unstuck the Q1, Q2, Q3. Yeah. Uh, unstuck reports. I always thought that was reports. I always thought that was reports. I always thought that was fascinating. And he just had insight fascinating. And he just had insight fascinating. And he just had insight like nobody else. And you know, cause of like nobody else. And you know, cause of like nobody else. And you know, cause of death, I believe, was a heart attack. death, I believe, was a heart attack. death, I believe, was a heart attack. Correct. Yep. Yep. He had a heart Correct. Yep. Yep. He had a heart Correct. Yep. Yep. He had a heart attack. Breaking his leaves in his in attack. Breaking his leaves in his in attack. Breaking his leaves in his in his yard. Yeah. He and Emily were just his yard. Yeah. He and Emily were just his yard. Yeah. He and Emily were just out doing light yard work, honestly. And out doing light yard work, honestly. And out doing light yard work, honestly. And he just wasn't feeling good. And he he just wasn't feeling good. And he he just wasn't feeling good. And he said, you know, Emma, I'm going to go in said, you know, Emma, I'm going to go in said, you know, Emma, I'm going to go in and just lay down for a little bit. And and just lay down for a little bit. And and just lay down for a little bit. And thankfully, she went in with him. So thankfully, she went in with him. So thankfully, she went in with him. So there's, you know, a sense that he was there's, you know, a sense that he was there's, you know, a sense that he was with her when he, you know, he never with her when he, you know, he never with her when he, you know, he never came back after he had that heart came back after he had that heart came back after he had that heart attack. His body was alive for a couple attack. His body was alive for a couple attack. His body was alive for a couple of days, but um she was able to be there of days, but um she was able to be there of days, but um she was able to be there with him, but it was nothing strenuous.

with him, but it was nothing strenuous. with him, but it was nothing strenuous. It just, that's why it makes it all so It just, that's why it makes it all so It just, that's why it makes it all so shocking. I've been to that house. I've shocking. I've been to that house. I've shocking. I've been to that house. I've been to their house. And uh can can I been to their house. And uh can can I been to their house. And uh can can I just I just feel for all of them. Taking just I just feel for all of them. Taking just I just feel for all of them. Taking over for a founder is is no small thing. over for a founder is is no small thing. over for a founder is is no small thing. and you know the business was Tony was and you know the business was Tony was and you know the business was Tony was sort of the face of the business but he sort of the face of the business but he sort of the face of the business but he had a whole team and a group of had a whole team and a group of had a whole team and a group of consultants and everything. Um, what was consultants and everything. Um, what was consultants and everything. Um, what was going through your mind in the first few going through your mind in the first few going through your mind in the first few weeks after Tony's passing? I mean, you weeks after Tony's passing? I mean, you weeks after Tony's passing? I mean, you think about the impact of a team and I'm think about the impact of a team and I'm think about the impact of a team and I'm sure there's a lot of people who can sure there's a lot of people who can sure there's a lot of people who can identify with and maybe even if they identify with and maybe even if they identify with and maybe even if they can't identify can imagine what would can't identify can imagine what would can't identify can imagine what would happen if the senior pastor, if the CEO, happen if the senior pastor, if the CEO, happen if the senior pastor, if the CEO, if the the leader and particularly a if the the leader and particularly a if the the leader and particularly a founder, there's something about a founder, there's something about a founder, there's something about a founder that is very different than founder that is very different than founder that is very different than just, oh yeah, we're the 40th pastor in, just, oh yeah, we're the 40th pastor in, just, oh yeah, we're the 40th pastor in, you know, 200 years or the eighth CEO. you know, 200 years or the eighth CEO. you know, 200 years or the eighth CEO. There's something about a founder that There's something about a founder that There's something about a founder that is really unique. So, what was going is really unique. So, what was going is really unique. So, what was going through your mind in the days and weeks through your mind in the days and weeks through your mind in the days and weeks after Tony's passing? You know, man, after Tony's passing? You know, man, after Tony's passing? You know, man, from a personal standpoint, nothing was from a personal standpoint, nothing was from a personal standpoint, nothing was going through my head those first few going through my head those first few going through my head those first few weeks. We were all literally in shock weeks. We were all literally in shock weeks. We were all literally in shock and it seemed absolutely impossible to and it seemed absolutely impossible to and it seemed absolutely impossible to believe. And again, being a remote team, believe. And again, being a remote team, believe. And again, being a remote team, we didn't have any of those cues that we didn't have any of those cues that we didn't have any of those cues that helped us accept the loss. There was no helped us accept the loss. There was no helped us accept the loss. There was no empty office for us to see. There were empty office for us to see. There were empty office for us to see. There were no gatherings to process what happened.

no gatherings to process what happened. no gatherings to process what happened. It was just disbelief. I kept expecting It was just disbelief. I kept expecting It was just disbelief. I kept expecting him just to show back up in our Zoom him just to show back up in our Zoom him just to show back up in our Zoom rooms. Right. So once the funeral had rooms. Right. So once the funeral had rooms. Right. So once the funeral had been set, uh, we all just focused on been set, uh, we all just focused on been set, uh, we all just focused on gathering with our unstuck team and to gathering with our unstuck team and to gathering with our unstuck team and to say goodbye to the man who had pulled say goodbye to the man who had pulled say goodbye to the man who had pulled this rag tag group of leaders together. this rag tag group of leaders together. this rag tag group of leaders together. We call ourselves the unstuckers. You We call ourselves the unstuckers. You We call ourselves the unstuckers. You know, a group that really shared his know, a group that really shared his know, a group that really shared his passion uh for the local church. passion uh for the local church. passion uh for the local church. And yeah, after that, as we began to And yeah, after that, as we began to And yeah, after that, as we began to take our first steps forward, which by take our first steps forward, which by take our first steps forward, which by the way was really hard, Carrie, you the way was really hard, Carrie, you the way was really hard, Carrie, you know, in some ways getting back to our know, in some ways getting back to our know, in some ways getting back to our ministry and back to the routine, it it ministry and back to the routine, it it ministry and back to the routine, it it just felt wrong. Like it didn't feel just felt wrong. Like it didn't feel just felt wrong. Like it didn't feel right doing this without Tony. Almost right doing this without Tony. Almost right doing this without Tony. Almost like it was dishonoring him to be like it was dishonoring him to be like it was dishonoring him to be carrying this forward without him. And I carrying this forward without him. And I carrying this forward without him. And I guess I guess that's the way we feel in guess I guess that's the way we feel in guess I guess that's the way we feel in loss, right? Like the whole world just loss, right? Like the whole world just loss, right? Like the whole world just needs to stop for a while. needs to stop for a while. needs to stop for a while. What What do you think was underneath What What do you think was underneath What What do you think was underneath that? Why? Why did it feel wrong? that? Why? Why did it feel wrong? that? Why? Why did it feel wrong? Oh, me personally, I felt like I don't Oh, me personally, I felt like I don't Oh, me personally, I felt like I don't deserve this. I didn't build this. I deserve this. I didn't build this. I deserve this. I didn't build this. I didn't create this. Tony did all this didn't create this. Tony did all this didn't create this. Tony did all this and I got to be a part of it. And so to and I got to be a part of it. And so to and I got to be a part of it. And so to think about doing it without him being think about doing it without him being think about doing it without him being there was really a really hard thing to there was really a really hard thing to there was really a really hard thing to wrestle with. Um, but our team, you wrestle with. Um, but our team, you wrestle with. Um, but our team, you know, we knew from Tony that his desire know, we knew from Tony that his desire know, we knew from Tony that his desire was to see this ministry continue long was to see this ministry continue long was to see this ministry continue long after he was in leadership. It was after he was in leadership. It was after he was in leadership. It was always his desire to see the leadership always his desire to see the leadership always his desire to see the leadership torch pass to the next generation of torch pass to the next generation of torch pass to the next generation of leaders. And he and I being the same leaders. And he and I being the same leaders. And he and I being the same age, we had many conversations about age, we had many conversations about age, we had many conversations about succession for each of us. We were

succession for each of us. We were succession for each of us. We were making plans. I just I just thought we'd making plans. I just I just thought we'd making plans. I just I just thought we'd exit together, but apparently I'm the exit together, but apparently I'm the exit together, but apparently I'm the bridge now. And you know, a side note, I bridge now. And you know, a side note, I bridge now. And you know, a side note, I think Tony has always been, well, I know think Tony has always been, well, I know think Tony has always been, well, I know he has always been such an advocate of he has always been such an advocate of he has always been such an advocate of women and leadership, and I think it women and leadership, and I think it women and leadership, and I think it would make him smile that this will be a would make him smile that this will be a would make him smile that this will be a part of our history now, unstuck part of our history now, unstuck part of our history now, unstuck history. But back to your original history. But back to your original history. But back to your original question, what was going through my mind question, what was going through my mind question, what was going through my mind when I realized the Unstuck group's when I realized the Unstuck group's when I realized the Unstuck group's future was now in my hands? I honestly future was now in my hands? I honestly future was now in my hands? I honestly never did. Um, we have always been such never did. Um, we have always been such never did. Um, we have always been such a team-based organization. In fact, our a team-based organization. In fact, our a team-based organization. In fact, our team was up with you back in 2019. Yeah, team was up with you back in 2019. Yeah, team was up with you back in 2019. Yeah, we were talking about that. That was we were talking about that. That was we were talking about that. That was such a good trip. You came to my house, such a good trip. You came to my house, such a good trip. You came to my house, backyard, hung out for a couple days. I backyard, hung out for a couple days. I backyard, hung out for a couple days. I don't know that I helped you, but you don't know that I helped you, but you don't know that I helped you, but you guys really helped me. I still have my guys really helped me. I still have my guys really helped me. I still have my notes from that day. You've got a you've notes from that day. You've got a you've notes from that day. You've got a you've got a you've got a chip in your brain I got a you've got a chip in your brain I got a you've got a chip in your brain I don't have about kind of future. And don't have about kind of future. And don't have about kind of future. And actually, just like Tony, it seems like actually, just like Tony, it seems like actually, just like Tony, it seems like you both can take a lot of information you both can take a lot of information you both can take a lot of information and just bring it down to a really and just bring it down to a really and just bring it down to a really concise um statement I have to process concise um statement I have to process concise um statement I have to process out loud to ever get my thoughts to come out loud to ever get my thoughts to come out loud to ever get my thoughts to come together. No, it was it's an incredible together. No, it was it's an incredible together. No, it was it's an incredible team. Um, when you and Tony were talking team. Um, when you and Tony were talking team. Um, when you and Tony were talking about succession, what what was the about succession, what what was the about succession, what what was the conversation like? And and good for conversation like? And and good for conversation like? And and good for Tony. And again, just to set the Tony. And again, just to set the Tony. And again, just to set the context, that probably started what, context, that probably started what, context, that probably started what, when he turned 50 or before that, a few when he turned 50 or before that, a few when he turned 50 or before that, a few years before he passed. Yeah, we would years before he passed. Yeah, we would years before he passed. Yeah, we would probably have been talking about it for probably have been talking about it for probably have been talking about it for about 3 years at that point. I had about 3 years at that point. I had about 3 years at that point. I had shared with him when I was going to shared with him when I was going to shared with him when I was going to retire. He was actually kind of on that retire. He was actually kind of on that retire. He was actually kind of on that same time frame. And uh, it was same time frame. And uh, it was same time frame. And uh, it was interesting. And it was always a tangled

interesting. And it was always a tangled interesting. And it was always a tangled conversation because if we had an conversation because if we had an conversation because if we had an opening on our team, the ability to add opening on our team, the ability to add opening on our team, the ability to add someone, uh we are always trying to look someone, uh we are always trying to look someone, uh we are always trying to look for a unicorn like we want someone who for a unicorn like we want someone who for a unicorn like we want someone who can do content uh who also has this and can do content uh who also has this and can do content uh who also has this and this and this and this. And finally it this and this and this. And finally it this and this and this. And finally it was Tiffany who threw the red flag in was Tiffany who threw the red flag in was Tiffany who threw the red flag in and she's like stop it. Let's just you and she's like stop it. Let's just you and she's like stop it. Let's just you know figure out what our business needs know figure out what our business needs know figure out what our business needs right now and not entangle this in right now and not entangle this in right now and not entangle this in succession because it always went that succession because it always went that succession because it always went that way like and maybe this hire could way like and maybe this hire could way like and maybe this hire could become X. But the truth is, you weren't become X. But the truth is, you weren't become X. But the truth is, you weren't going to hire another Tony and another going to hire another Tony and another going to hire another Tony and another Amy. You're going to have a whole Amy. You're going to have a whole Amy. You're going to have a whole different mix of giftings that were different mix of giftings that were different mix of giftings that were going to need to come to the table. So, going to need to come to the table. So, going to need to come to the table. So, yeah. So, our leadership team, you know, yeah. So, our leadership team, you know, yeah. So, our leadership team, you know, there were four of us and now it was there were four of us and now it was there were four of us and now it was down to three, but I said to the team, down to three, but I said to the team, down to three, but I said to the team, we're a three-legged stool and that we're a three-legged stool and that we're a three-legged stool and that still offers support and stabil still offers support and stabil still offers support and stabil stability. So, we just leaned in stability. So, we just leaned in stability. So, we just leaned in together and started asking again in together and started asking again in together and started asking again in these early days, what would Tony do? these early days, what would Tony do? these early days, what would Tony do? and we each used our giftings to carry and we each used our giftings to carry and we each used our giftings to carry Unstuck forward. You know, my lane is a Unstuck forward. You know, my lane is a Unstuck forward. You know, my lane is a little more public and Tony and I little more public and Tony and I little more public and Tony and I definitely carried a lot of the definitely carried a lot of the definitely carried a lot of the consulting. So, that's where I put my consulting. So, that's where I put my consulting. So, that's where I put my focus, you know, creating content for focus, you know, creating content for focus, you know, creating content for pastors, serving churches, and being the pastors, serving churches, and being the pastors, serving churches, and being the leader of Unstuck. And I just have to leader of Unstuck. And I just have to leader of Unstuck. And I just have to say, Tony, he set me up well to step say, Tony, he set me up well to step say, Tony, he set me up well to step into that role. And God really gave me a into that role. And God really gave me a into that role. And God really gave me a peace and a confidence just to lean in peace and a confidence just to lean in peace and a confidence just to lean in in this season.

in this season. in this season. H one of the things I'm very cognizant H one of the things I'm very cognizant H one of the things I'm very cognizant of because I didn't do this well in the of because I didn't do this well in the of because I didn't do this well in the early days of leadership, but uh a early days of leadership, but uh a early days of leadership, but uh a mentor of mine, Terry Wardle, talks mentor of mine, Terry Wardle, talks mentor of mine, Terry Wardle, talks about grieving your losses. Yeah. And about grieving your losses. Yeah. And about grieving your losses. Yeah. And how important that is. How did your team how important that is. How did your team how important that is. How did your team grieve Tony's passing? grieve Tony's passing? grieve Tony's passing? Oh, some ways we still are. Yeah. Um Oh, some ways we still are. Yeah. Um Oh, some ways we still are. Yeah. Um Yeah. It hasn't even been a year. No, Yeah. It hasn't even been a year. No, Yeah. It hasn't even been a year. No, seven months, something like that. I um seven months, something like that. I um seven months, something like that. I um when we went down for the funeral, I when we went down for the funeral, I when we went down for the funeral, I actually rented a big Airbnb and so all actually rented a big Airbnb and so all actually rented a big Airbnb and so all of the Instalkers from across the of the Instalkers from across the of the Instalkers from across the country, we were able to stay all country, we were able to stay all country, we were able to stay all together for those couple of days that together for those couple of days that together for those couple of days that we were in Atlanta. Um we brought in we were in Atlanta. Um we brought in we were in Atlanta. Um we brought in Antiggo Pizza, which was one of Tony's Antiggo Pizza, which was one of Tony's Antiggo Pizza, which was one of Tony's favorites. We, you know, we just we did favorites. We, you know, we just we did favorites. We, you know, we just we did things like that and we just hung out things like that and we just hung out things like that and we just hung out and we found a space and lots of rooms and we found a space and lots of rooms and we found a space and lots of rooms where we could just remember Tony and where we could just remember Tony and where we could just remember Tony and grieve together. again that the grieve together. again that the grieve together. again that the remoteness of it. It was a delayed grief remoteness of it. It was a delayed grief remoteness of it. It was a delayed grief and it I think it takes longer to walk and it I think it takes longer to walk and it I think it takes longer to walk through some of the I don't know through some of the I don't know through some of the I don't know milestones of grief when you can't be milestones of grief when you can't be milestones of grief when you can't be present. So for us all of us getting present. So for us all of us getting present. So for us all of us getting together was a really important part of together was a really important part of together was a really important part of those two days when we were in Atlanta.

those two days when we were in Atlanta. those two days when we were in Atlanta. And then uh we're we're trying to see if And then uh we're we're trying to see if And then uh we're we're trying to see if we can get everyone together at the end we can get everyone together at the end we can get everyone together at the end of this year. Again uh we we're still of this year. Again uh we we're still of this year. Again uh we we're still processing. Uh, but I'll tell you what, processing. Uh, but I'll tell you what, processing. Uh, but I'll tell you what, Tony poured into us so much and we are Tony poured into us so much and we are Tony poured into us so much and we are all enjoying pouring back to his legacy all enjoying pouring back to his legacy all enjoying pouring back to his legacy and into the unstuck group and God has and into the unstuck group and God has and into the unstuck group and God has just shown up in amazing ways. For those just shown up in amazing ways. For those just shown up in amazing ways. For those people who are founders or senior people who are founders or senior people who are founders or senior leaders, what did Tony do well to set leaders, what did Tony do well to set leaders, what did Tony do well to set you up for this unexpected transition? I you up for this unexpected transition? I you up for this unexpected transition? I mean, yeah, it's coming down the road, mean, yeah, it's coming down the road, mean, yeah, it's coming down the road, right? But nobody the timing was totally right? But nobody the timing was totally right? But nobody the timing was totally premature and out of the blue. Yeah. premature and out of the blue. Yeah. premature and out of the blue. Yeah. Well, we're me and Tiffany were talking. Well, we're me and Tiffany were talking. Well, we're me and Tiffany were talking. He was just ridiculously focused on He was just ridiculously focused on He was just ridiculously focused on keeping the main thing the main thing. keeping the main thing the main thing. keeping the main thing the main thing. So, there's ideas. There's a lot of So, there's ideas. There's a lot of So, there's ideas. There's a lot of things that, you know, people ask us if things that, you know, people ask us if things that, you know, people ask us if we'll do this, we'll do that. And he we'll do this, we'll do that. And he we'll do this, we'll do that. And he just kept the lane of what Unstuck is just kept the lane of what Unstuck is just kept the lane of what Unstuck is about really clear. And as he built out about really clear. And as he built out about really clear. And as he built out our team, he was so good at putting our team, he was so good at putting our team, he was so good at putting together different skill sets, different together different skill sets, different together different skill sets, different giftings to really make a solid team giftings to really make a solid team giftings to really make a solid team where we weren't all alike. We were very where we weren't all alike. We were very where we weren't all alike. We were very complimentary. And so that laser focus I complimentary. And so that laser focus I complimentary. And so that laser focus I think is something that helped us think is something that helped us think is something that helped us because we are we're good planners. We because we are we're good planners. We because we are we're good planners. We work our plans. We re-evaluate. We have work our plans. We re-evaluate. We have work our plans. We re-evaluate. We have you know our culture shaping behaviors you know our culture shaping behaviors you know our culture shaping behaviors that we talk about. It's things like that we talk about. It's things like that we talk about. It's things like constant improvement. It's things like constant improvement. It's things like constant improvement. It's things like um you know um you know um you know missiondriven interdependent skills, you missiondriven interdependent skills, you missiondriven interdependent skills, you know, on the team that we're all know, on the team that we're all know, on the team that we're all confident in what God's given us, but we confident in what God's given us, but we confident in what God's given us, but we completely lean on one another's

completely lean on one another's completely lean on one another's gifting. So that's just the culture he gifting. So that's just the culture he gifting. So that's just the culture he set that we were able to lead out of set that we were able to lead out of set that we were able to lead out of when we didn't have him. when we didn't have him. when we didn't have him. Leadership styles are always different. Leadership styles are always different. Leadership styles are always different. You and Tony work together. You hosted a You and Tony work together. You hosted a You and Tony work together. You hosted a lot of things including a podcast lot of things including a podcast lot of things including a podcast together. Yeah. Um but your style is together. Yeah. Um but your style is together. Yeah. Um but your style is going to be different than his. What going to be different than his. What going to be different than his. What were the biggest what are the biggest were the biggest what are the biggest were the biggest what are the biggest differences between you and Tony? And differences between you and Tony? And differences between you and Tony? And then how did how has that impacted the then how did how has that impacted the then how did how has that impacted the team? Yeah. Well, Tony and I do have a team? Yeah. Well, Tony and I do have a team? Yeah. Well, Tony and I do have a lot in common when it comes to lot in common when it comes to lot in common when it comes to leadership style. Although we are leadership style. Although we are leadership style. Although we are hardwired very differently and I would hardwired very differently and I would hardwired very differently and I would say again very complimentary actually. say again very complimentary actually. say again very complimentary actually. So Tony, you know, if we look at the So Tony, you know, if we look at the So Tony, you know, if we look at the desk, Tony's high D. He's more desk, Tony's high D. He's more desk, Tony's high D. He's more analytical. Me, I'm a high eye. I'm much analytical. Me, I'm a high eye. I'm much analytical. Me, I'm a high eye. I'm much more relational. My team will say that more relational. My team will say that more relational. My team will say that I'm the one that brings the fun. You I'm the one that brings the fun. You I'm the one that brings the fun. You know, it's really funny. You mentioned know, it's really funny. You mentioned know, it's really funny. You mentioned the podcast when Tony and I first the podcast when Tony and I first the podcast when Tony and I first started recording it. You know, we would started recording it. You know, we would started recording it. You know, we would give each other feedback and I said to give each other feedback and I said to give each other feedback and I said to him early on, I said, "Can you just him early on, I said, "Can you just him early on, I said, "Can you just bring a little more energy?" And he's bring a little more energy?" And he's bring a little more energy?" And he's like, "This is it. This is all I've like, "This is it. This is all I've like, "This is it. This is all I've got." Tony, he wasn't a monotone, but got." Tony, he wasn't a monotone, but got." Tony, he wasn't a monotone, but like he was he was like always just like he was he was like always just like he was he was like always just steady as she goes. Yes, he was. Uh, steady as she goes. Yes, he was. Uh, steady as she goes. Yes, he was. Uh, working genius. Tony's invention, working genius. Tony's invention, working genius. Tony's invention, discernment. Man, I know you saw this.

discernment. Man, I know you saw this. discernment. Man, I know you saw this. He has such a gift of discernment. But He has such a gift of discernment. But He has such a gift of discernment. But me, I'm more galvanizing enablement. I me, I'm more galvanizing enablement. I me, I'm more galvanizing enablement. I love to move work forward, build systems love to move work forward, build systems love to move work forward, build systems and processes. In fact, I think Tony and processes. In fact, I think Tony and processes. In fact, I think Tony knew we needed systems when he hired me. knew we needed systems when he hired me. knew we needed systems when he hired me. Uh, prior to when he offered me the job Uh, prior to when he offered me the job Uh, prior to when he offered me the job on the team, I was actually a contractor on the team, I was actually a contractor on the team, I was actually a contractor with Unstuck. So, I had a full-time job, with Unstuck. So, I had a full-time job, with Unstuck. So, I had a full-time job, but I served churches throughout the but I served churches throughout the but I served churches throughout the year. And I noticed when I came on year. And I noticed when I came on year. And I noticed when I came on board, we just had very little board, we just had very little board, we just had very little documentation of our systems. So, when documentation of our systems. So, when documentation of our systems. So, when it was just Tony, of course, he didn't it was just Tony, of course, he didn't it was just Tony, of course, he didn't need them. It was all in his head. It need them. It was all in his head. It need them. It was all in his head. It was just pure talent. But for someone was just pure talent. But for someone was just pure talent. But for someone like me, I want clarity like on what like me, I want clarity like on what like me, I want clarity like on what we're doing. And he had invited me to an we're doing. And he had invited me to an we're doing. And he had invited me to an annual planning meeting again before I annual planning meeting again before I annual planning meeting again before I was on staff. And I just said, I think was on staff. And I just said, I think was on staff. And I just said, I think we need to define the unstuck way so we need to define the unstuck way so we need to define the unstuck way so that whoever we send to a church, we that whoever we send to a church, we that whoever we send to a church, we have confidence that our brand will be have confidence that our brand will be have confidence that our brand will be well represented. And uh the next week well represented. And uh the next week well represented. And uh the next week he offered me a full-time job. So it he offered me a full-time job. So it he offered me a full-time job. So it came together. Fantastic. Um what do you came together. Fantastic. Um what do you came together. Fantastic. Um what do you do? You mentioned, you know, you asked do? You mentioned, you know, you asked do? You mentioned, you know, you asked the question uh what would Tony do? uh the question uh what would Tony do? uh the question uh what would Tony do? uh which I think is very fair and we're not which I think is very fair and we're not which I think is very fair and we're not even a year into it but um even a year into it but um even a year into it but um how much is that something you want to how much is that something you want to how much is that something you want to continue doing because Tony was very continue doing because Tony was very continue doing because Tony was very good at adopting right like 2025 is not good at adopting right like 2025 is not good at adopting right like 2025 is not the same as 2024 and that's right you the same as 2024 and that's right you the same as 2024 and that's right you know look at what's happening in the know look at what's happening in the know look at what's happening in the economy right now it's a yo-yo um economy right now it's a yo-yo um economy right now it's a yo-yo um where have you broken with tradition so where have you broken with tradition so where have you broken with tradition so far do you do you feel a permission to far do you do you feel a permission to far do you do you feel a permission to say, "Yeah, Tony probably would have

say, "Yeah, Tony probably would have say, "Yeah, Tony probably would have done it this way, but we got to preserve done it this way, but we got to preserve done it this way, but we got to preserve the mission, change the method." I'm the mission, change the method." I'm the mission, change the method." I'm just wondering how you're looking at just wondering how you're looking at just wondering how you're looking at that months down the road. Yeah. You that months down the road. Yeah. You that months down the road. Yeah. You know, the good news is is that I worked know, the good news is is that I worked know, the good news is is that I worked um with Tony for 10 years and I'm my um with Tony for 10 years and I'm my um with Tony for 10 years and I'm my style is I tend to study my leader and style is I tend to study my leader and style is I tend to study my leader and then I have to figure out do I agree then I have to figure out do I agree then I have to figure out do I agree with it and I was just so in step with with it and I was just so in step with with it and I was just so in step with Tony on his philosophies. So, there's Tony on his philosophies. So, there's Tony on his philosophies. So, there's going to be a lot of easy parallel with going to be a lot of easy parallel with going to be a lot of easy parallel with kind of how I make decisions. I'm sure kind of how I make decisions. I'm sure kind of how I make decisions. I'm sure the day will come when I would maybe the day will come when I would maybe the day will come when I would maybe want to do something different than what want to do something different than what want to do something different than what I think Tony would have done. But I I think Tony would have done. But I I think Tony would have done. But I think in when that arises, I'll pause think in when that arises, I'll pause think in when that arises, I'll pause because, you know, I I will think on because, you know, I I will think on because, you know, I I will think on that. It won't be a fast move. And I'll that. It won't be a fast move. And I'll that. It won't be a fast move. And I'll lean in on Tiffany and Sean who have lean in on Tiffany and Sean who have lean in on Tiffany and Sean who have some of those discernment gifts before some of those discernment gifts before some of those discernment gifts before we do it. But if I feel it's the right we do it. But if I feel it's the right we do it. But if I feel it's the right thing, I'll make the call and, you know, thing, I'll make the call and, you know, thing, I'll make the call and, you know, we'll either find out it was the right we'll either find out it was the right we'll either find out it was the right call or we'll fail forward. So, yeah. call or we'll fail forward. So, yeah. call or we'll fail forward. So, yeah. What did you do to stabilize the team, What did you do to stabilize the team, What did you do to stabilize the team, Amy? Amy? Amy? Um, well, I mean, when when Tony died, Um, well, I mean, when when Tony died, Um, well, I mean, when when Tony died, like how Yeah, when Tony died, like it's like how Yeah, when Tony died, like it's like how Yeah, when Tony died, like it's a it's a you know, I know I was uh a it's a you know, I know I was uh a it's a you know, I know I was uh swapping texts with friends who are swapping texts with friends who are swapping texts with friends who are like, did Tony have a succession plan?

like, did Tony have a succession plan? like, did Tony have a succession plan? Is anyone like we didn't know, right? Is anyone like we didn't know, right? Is anyone like we didn't know, right? And you may have had a much greater And you may have had a much greater And you may have had a much greater sense of what to do, but I'm just sense of what to do, but I'm just sense of what to do, but I'm just wondering, everybody's reeling wondering, everybody's reeling wondering, everybody's reeling personally and they're wondering, do I personally and they're wondering, do I personally and they're wondering, do I have a job in 2 months, etc. So what did have a job in 2 months, etc. So what did have a job in 2 months, etc. So what did you do to stabilize the team? Because I you do to stabilize the team? Because I you do to stabilize the team? Because I found like even going through COVID 5 found like even going through COVID 5 found like even going through COVID 5 years ago. Oh yeah. One of the first years ago. Oh yeah. One of the first years ago. Oh yeah. One of the first things I did was tell everybody, hey, we things I did was tell everybody, hey, we things I did was tell everybody, hey, we have margin in the company. You've got a have margin in the company. You've got a have margin in the company. You've got a job. We got we got, you know, job. We got we got, you know, job. We got we got, you know, multimonth. I think it was a six-month multimonth. I think it was a six-month multimonth. I think it was a six-month runway before we really have to look at runway before we really have to look at runway before we really have to look at cuts. Uh we're just cash surplus people. cuts. Uh we're just cash surplus people. cuts. Uh we're just cash surplus people. I know Tony is wired in a similar way. I know Tony is wired in a similar way. I know Tony is wired in a similar way. Very similar way. And I'm like, hey Very similar way. And I'm like, hey Very similar way. And I'm like, hey everybody, it's going to be okay. Let's everybody, it's going to be okay. Let's everybody, it's going to be okay. Let's just figure out what to do. And of just figure out what to do. And of just figure out what to do. And of course it went on to be our our best course it went on to be our our best course it went on to be our our best year to date at that point. Yeah. But year to date at that point. Yeah. But year to date at that point. Yeah. But I'm just curious like what do you do to I'm just curious like what do you do to I'm just curious like what do you do to stabilize the team and let everybody stabilize the team and let everybody stabilize the team and let everybody know that hey we have a future here. know that hey we have a future here. know that hey we have a future here. Yeah. You would have thought that's Yeah. You would have thought that's Yeah. You would have thought that's where our brains would have gone like where our brains would have gone like where our brains would have gone like what's going to I mean we did have some what's going to I mean we did have some what's going to I mean we did have some of that right? What what's going to of that right? What what's going to of that right? What what's going to happen with unstuck? Will this will this happen with unstuck? Will this will this happen with unstuck? Will this will this um survive the loss of the main face of um survive the loss of the main face of um survive the loss of the main face of our organization. So definitely some of our organization. So definitely some of our organization. So definitely some of that going on. But you're absolutely that going on. But you're absolutely that going on. But you're absolutely right. Again credit to Tony. he built up right. Again credit to Tony. he built up right. Again credit to Tony. he built up cash reserves and so we knew there was cash reserves and so we knew there was cash reserves and so we knew there was nothing urgent that we had to worry nothing urgent that we had to worry nothing urgent that we had to worry about from a financial perspective and about from a financial perspective and about from a financial perspective and that helped us really put our focus that helped us really put our focus that helped us really put our focus especially you know in the months that especially you know in the months that especially you know in the months that followed on good communication with our followed on good communication with our followed on good communication with our clients um you know internally checking clients um you know internally checking clients um you know internally checking in on one another and just um diving

in on one another and just um diving in on one another and just um diving into some of the areas of the ministry into some of the areas of the ministry into some of the areas of the ministry that none of us had experience in that none of us had experience in that none of us had experience in especially like the operational side especially like the operational side especially like the operational side right? Um taxes, finances, legal, uh you right? Um taxes, finances, legal, uh you right? Um taxes, finances, legal, uh you know, taxes were due right around the know, taxes were due right around the know, taxes were due right around the time that Tony passed away. And none and time that Tony passed away. And none and time that Tony passed away. And none and his wife Emily would be like, I have no his wife Emily would be like, I have no his wife Emily would be like, I have no idea. And so we had to we were idea. And so we had to we were idea. And so we had to we were distracted with things like that that we distracted with things like that that we distracted with things like that that we just had to figure out. So I don't think just had to figure out. So I don't think just had to figure out. So I don't think we worried so much as we wondered and we worried so much as we wondered and we worried so much as we wondered and then just got busy with the things that then just got busy with the things that then just got busy with the things that we had to do to keep everything running we had to do to keep everything running we had to do to keep everything running and rolling. But yeah, Emily's not on and rolling. But yeah, Emily's not on and rolling. But yeah, Emily's not on this podcast, so I want to be careful in this podcast, so I want to be careful in this podcast, so I want to be careful in how I ask the question, but you know, I how I ask the question, but you know, I how I ask the question, but you know, I think about this too because, you know, think about this too because, you know, think about this too because, you know, Tony and I, my wife, started the Tony and I, my wife, started the Tony and I, my wife, started the company, it's a personal company, etc., company, it's a personal company, etc., company, it's a personal company, etc., etc., and we just recently merged with etc., and we just recently merged with etc., and we just recently merged with Glue. But when you when you have that Glue. But when you when you have that Glue. But when you when you have that kind of partnership, it feels like a kind of partnership, it feels like a kind of partnership, it feels like a family business even though there are a family business even though there are a family business even though there are a lot of other people. How have you now lot of other people. How have you now lot of other people. How have you now and and I'm asking the question because and and I'm asking the question because and and I'm asking the question because a lot of churches operate that way. Um, a lot of churches operate that way. Um, a lot of churches operate that way. Um, as you know, you're a church consultant, as you know, you're a church consultant, as you know, you're a church consultant, you know, I mean, not so much in you know, I mean, not so much in you know, I mean, not so much in mainline denominations, but if you're a mainline denominations, but if you're a mainline denominations, but if you're a founder or you're part more of the founder or you're part more of the founder or you're part more of the charismatic world, it kind of feels or charismatic world, it kind of feels or charismatic world, it kind of feels or or functions more like a family affair or functions more like a family affair or functions more like a family affair than otherwise. So, how have you than otherwise. So, how have you than otherwise. So, how have you navigated those dynamics with with navigated those dynamics with with navigated those dynamics with with Emily? Yeah, this is again, it just Emily? Yeah, this is again, it just Emily? Yeah, this is again, it just sucks being remote. Can I say that?

sucks being remote. Can I say that? sucks being remote. Can I say that? because we would love to spend so much because we would love to spend so much because we would love to spend so much more facetime with Emily and share meals more facetime with Emily and share meals more facetime with Emily and share meals and walk with her. So, we try to I and walk with her. So, we try to I and walk with her. So, we try to I actually end up going to Atlanta quite a actually end up going to Atlanta quite a actually end up going to Atlanta quite a bit. So, in fact, I just had Emily join bit. So, in fact, I just had Emily join bit. So, in fact, I just had Emily join me at a church in Athens, uh, Georgia, me at a church in Athens, uh, Georgia, me at a church in Athens, uh, Georgia, so that she could see the process. You so that she could see the process. You so that she could see the process. You know, she wasn't on the business side of know, she wasn't on the business side of know, she wasn't on the business side of things, but she was definitely Tony's things, but she was definitely Tony's things, but she was definitely Tony's partner in Unstuck becoming a reality partner in Unstuck becoming a reality partner in Unstuck becoming a reality and how she supported him. So, I brought and how she supported him. So, I brought and how she supported him. So, I brought her out just to see the process in her out just to see the process in her out just to see the process in action. I try to share a meal with her action. I try to share a meal with her action. I try to share a meal with her whenever I'm going through Atlanta. whenever I'm going through Atlanta. whenever I'm going through Atlanta. She'll join us um on our calls, our Zoom She'll join us um on our calls, our Zoom She'll join us um on our calls, our Zoom calls, just to be around the business. calls, just to be around the business. calls, just to be around the business. You know, she doesn't she trusts us to You know, she doesn't she trusts us to You know, she doesn't she trusts us to run it. Uh but she does she'll call run it. Uh but she does she'll call run it. Uh but she does she'll call she'll text the churches we're serving. she'll text the churches we're serving. she'll text the churches we're serving. She'll send the thank you notes. So, She'll send the thank you notes. So, She'll send the thank you notes. So, she's still staying engaged. And I think she's still staying engaged. And I think she's still staying engaged. And I think that helps her helps her navigate, that helps her helps her navigate, that helps her helps her navigate, especially this first year of just this especially this first year of just this especially this first year of just this was so much who Tony was. helps her stay was so much who Tony was. helps her stay was so much who Tony was. helps her stay close and uh she's very mission-minded close and uh she's very mission-minded close and uh she's very mission-minded too with when the unstuck group, you too with when the unstuck group, you too with when the unstuck group, you know, came into being. It was her who know, came into being. It was her who know, came into being. It was her who said, "Maybe you should do this, you said, "Maybe you should do this, you said, "Maybe you should do this, you know, instead of being on staff at a know, instead of being on staff at a know, instead of being on staff at a church." So, we try to stay in contact church." So, we try to stay in contact church." So, we try to stay in contact the best we can and see her whenever we the best we can and see her whenever we the best we can and see her whenever we can. Uh she's coming out here to can. Uh she's coming out here to can. Uh she's coming out here to Minnesota in July for our team meeting Minnesota in July for our team meeting Minnesota in July for our team meeting and then we're going to have the next and then we're going to have the next and then we're going to have the next one at her house in the fall. So, those one at her house in the fall. So, those one at her house in the fall. So, those touches um help. What's been the most touches um help. What's been the most touches um help. What's been the most difficult moment for you as the leader, difficult moment for you as the leader, difficult moment for you as the leader, the CEO now?

Let me think about that. Let me think about that. Sure. No rush. Mhm. Sure. No rush. Mhm. Sure. No rush. Mhm. [Music] Um, I think the most difficult part for Um, I think the most difficult part for me, it's going to sound so cliche, is me, it's going to sound so cliche, is me, it's going to sound so cliche, is not doing this with Tony. Mhm. Um, not doing this with Tony. Mhm. Um, not doing this with Tony. Mhm. Um, there's a missing foundation that we there's a missing foundation that we there's a missing foundation that we have now. have now. have now. And and at the same time, it was a And and at the same time, it was a And and at the same time, it was a really helpful conversation for me. I really helpful conversation for me. I really helpful conversation for me. I mentioned earlier, you know, mentioned earlier, you know, mentioned earlier, you know, that well, I don't know remember how I that well, I don't know remember how I that well, I don't know remember how I said it, but a little bit of that guilt, said it, but a little bit of that guilt, said it, but a little bit of that guilt, you know, as we moved forward without you know, as we moved forward without you know, as we moved forward without him. him. him. Um, I was actually kind of frustrated Um, I was actually kind of frustrated Um, I was actually kind of frustrated that we started to thrive again. And I that we started to thrive again. And I that we started to thrive again. And I know that sounds weird, but again, part know that sounds weird, but again, part know that sounds weird, but again, part of me felt like this should come to a of me felt like this should come to a of me felt like this should come to a screeching halt without my friend. You screeching halt without my friend. You screeching halt without my friend. You know, there there's part of me that said know, there there's part of me that said know, there there's part of me that said that felt that way in the background. that felt that way in the background. that felt that way in the background. and you know trying to balance those and you know trying to balance those and you know trying to balance those thoughts out. I remember we were on a thoughts out. I remember we were on a thoughts out. I remember we were on a call with our advisory team and it's the call with our advisory team and it's the call with our advisory team and it's the first time we gathered since we had lost first time we gathered since we had lost first time we gathered since we had lost Tony. So, um, you shared the story and Tony. So, um, you shared the story and Tony. So, um, you shared the story and we're talking about things, but one of we're talking about things, but one of we're talking about things, but one of them said that as long as we have them said that as long as we have them said that as long as we have churches, we need the unstuck group and churches, we need the unstuck group and churches, we need the unstuck group and I thought, "Yep, that's true." And it I thought, "Yep, that's true." And it I thought, "Yep, that's true." And it also aligned with the fact that Tony also aligned with the fact that Tony also aligned with the fact that Tony wanted this thing to go to the next wanted this thing to go to the next wanted this thing to go to the next generation. And that was a little pivot generation. And that was a little pivot generation. And that was a little pivot in my brain that helped me just start to in my brain that helped me just start to in my brain that helped me just start to lead forward with confidence and to feel

lead forward with confidence and to feel lead forward with confidence and to feel good about the fact that we were doing good about the fact that we were doing good about the fact that we were doing well, feel good about the fact churches well, feel good about the fact churches well, feel good about the fact churches were signing up, that the podcast was, were signing up, that the podcast was, were signing up, that the podcast was, you know, had rebounded because none of you know, had rebounded because none of you know, had rebounded because none of us knew again what it would be like us knew again what it would be like us knew again what it would be like without Tony's main face there. So that without Tony's main face there. So that without Tony's main face there. So that was that was a helpful conversation and was that was a helpful conversation and was that was a helpful conversation and confirming as we moved forward out of confirming as we moved forward out of confirming as we moved forward out of 2024 into 2025. I think it probably is a 2024 into 2025. I think it probably is a 2024 into 2025. I think it probably is a bit of a surprise. I mean, Tony did bit of a surprise. I mean, Tony did bit of a surprise. I mean, Tony did build out a team. He didn't brand. It build out a team. He didn't brand. It build out a team. He didn't brand. It wasn't the to Tony Morgan company, but I wasn't the to Tony Morgan company, but I wasn't the to Tony Morgan company, but I think it is a little bit of a surprise think it is a little bit of a surprise think it is a little bit of a surprise that within months, the company is that within months, the company is that within months, the company is thriving. What were the factors? Like, thriving. What were the factors? Like, thriving. What were the factors? Like, do you have a theory on why the company do you have a theory on why the company do you have a theory on why the company started to thrive? Why churches kept started to thrive? Why churches kept started to thrive? Why churches kept reaching out going, "Yeah, can you come reaching out going, "Yeah, can you come reaching out going, "Yeah, can you come in and do a consultation with us?" Like, in and do a consultation with us?" Like, in and do a consultation with us?" Like, any any thoughts on that, Amy? Yeah, you any any thoughts on that, Amy? Yeah, you any any thoughts on that, Amy? Yeah, you know, part of it is just again the know, part of it is just again the know, part of it is just again the leader himself, Tony. Wasn't it John leader himself, Tony. Wasn't it John leader himself, Tony. Wasn't it John Maxwell who wrote about the level five Maxwell who wrote about the level five Maxwell who wrote about the level five leader that when they step down from leader that when they step down from leader that when they step down from ministry the business the ministry moves ministry the business the ministry moves ministry the business the ministry moves on seamlessly? And if I'm quoting it on seamlessly? And if I'm quoting it on seamlessly? And if I'm quoting it right, a level five leader is described right, a level five leader is described right, a level five leader is described as someone people follow because of who as someone people follow because of who as someone people follow because of who they are and who they represent. So I they are and who they represent. So I they are and who they represent. So I just I think our team followed Tony's just I think our team followed Tony's just I think our team followed Tony's leadership because of who he was and leadership because of who he was and leadership because of who he was and what he represented. And we were set up what he represented. And we were set up what he represented. And we were set up long before he stepped down, before we long before he stepped down, before we long before he stepped down, before we lost him, to you know be decision lost him, to you know be decision lost him, to you know be decision makers, to think strategically, to be an makers, to think strategically, to be an makers, to think strategically, to be an interdependent team. And again, his interdependent team. And again, his interdependent team. And again, his superpower was keeping us focused. So we superpower was keeping us focused. So we superpower was keeping us focused. So we just got back, we plan well, and we just got back, we plan well, and we just got back, we plan well, and we started running the plays. We were

started running the plays. We were started running the plays. We were working our plan. And I think we just working our plan. And I think we just working our plan. And I think we just had God's hand of protection on this had God's hand of protection on this had God's hand of protection on this ministry. So that flywheel started going ministry. So that flywheel started going ministry. So that flywheel started going by running the plays we had already by running the plays we had already by running the plays we had already designed by following how Tony led and designed by following how Tony led and designed by following how Tony led and of course we asked the questions once in of course we asked the questions once in of course we asked the questions once in a while like what would Tony do right a while like what would Tony do right a while like what would Tony do right that's still a regular question for us that's still a regular question for us that's still a regular question for us but that helped us move forward and but that helped us move forward and but that helped us move forward and lastly I would also say the unique lastly I would also say the unique lastly I would also say the unique factor that enabled us to move forward factor that enabled us to move forward factor that enabled us to move forward was really the people that make up our was really the people that make up our was really the people that make up our team uh this is not a job for any of us team uh this is not a job for any of us team uh this is not a job for any of us I know you get this in fact I think we I know you get this in fact I think we I know you get this in fact I think we all took pay cuts to actually join the all took pay cuts to actually join the all took pay cuts to actually join the team. But it wasn't about the corporate team. But it wasn't about the corporate team. But it wasn't about the corporate ladder. It wasn't about worldly ladder. It wasn't about worldly ladder. It wasn't about worldly achievement. It was just this shared achievement. It was just this shared achievement. It was just this shared passion for the local church. And I passion for the local church. And I passion for the local church. And I think that's why that comment hit me think that's why that comment hit me think that's why that comment hit me like as long as there's churches, we like as long as there's churches, we like as long as there's churches, we need the unstuck group because my life's need the unstuck group because my life's need the unstuck group because my life's trajectory was completely changed trajectory was completely changed trajectory was completely changed because of the local church. Well, because of the local church. Well, because of the local church. Well, Jesus, of course, but the local church. Jesus, of course, but the local church. Jesus, of course, but the local church. They were ready for me. They were ready They were ready for me. They were ready They were ready for me. They were ready for me and for my husband and our three for me and for my husband and our three for me and for my husband and our three little kids in tow. And that experience little kids in tow. And that experience little kids in tow. And that experience changed our lives. Uh Tiffany on our changed our lives. Uh Tiffany on our changed our lives. Uh Tiffany on our team, she's a pastor's kid. So for us, team, she's a pastor's kid. So for us, team, she's a pastor's kid. So for us, it was our mission that drove us to it was our mission that drove us to it was our mission that drove us to continue our mission. Yeah. I want to continue our mission. Yeah. I want to continue our mission. Yeah. I want to dive into the data because I love the dive into the data because I love the dive into the data because I love the Unstuck report that comes out. Uh I read Unstuck report that comes out. Uh I read Unstuck report that comes out. Uh I read it voraciously. Just some meta trends it voraciously. Just some meta trends it voraciously. Just some meta trends that I want to drill into which I think that I want to drill into which I think that I want to drill into which I think a lot of people will hold up the mirror a lot of people will hold up the mirror a lot of people will hold up the mirror and go, "Uhoh, or good for us." But one and go, "Uhoh, or good for us." But one and go, "Uhoh, or good for us." But one of the trends that shows up is growing of the trends that shows up is growing of the trends that shows up is growing churches have 30% fewer paid staff and

churches have 30% fewer paid staff and churches have 30% fewer paid staff and 20% more volunteers. I mean percentages 20% more volunteers. I mean percentages 20% more volunteers. I mean percentages will vary from season to season but will vary from season to season but will vary from season to season but interesting if you're a growing church interesting if you're a growing church interesting if you're a growing church you have fewer staff not more and you you have fewer staff not more and you you have fewer staff not more and you have more volunteers. What is behind have more volunteers. What is behind have more volunteers. What is behind that trend Amy? Yeah and actually it's that trend Amy? Yeah and actually it's that trend Amy? Yeah and actually it's 30% fewer paid staff and 20 20% more 30% fewer paid staff and 20 20% more 30% fewer paid staff and 20 20% more volunteer leaders. Leaders is the key volunteer leaders. Leaders is the key volunteer leaders. Leaders is the key word. Not just volunteers, volunteer word. Not just volunteers, volunteer word. Not just volunteers, volunteer leaders. That's right. That's right. So, leaders. That's right. That's right. So, leaders. That's right. That's right. So, um, these healthy growing churches have um, these healthy growing churches have um, these healthy growing churches have done some specific things. Not rocket done some specific things. Not rocket done some specific things. Not rocket science, but number one, they're hiring, science, but number one, they're hiring, science, but number one, they're hiring, multiplying, equipping leaders into multiplying, equipping leaders into multiplying, equipping leaders into staff roles, right? And so, these people staff roles, right? And so, these people staff roles, right? And so, these people who are hired on staff, they know that who are hired on staff, they know that who are hired on staff, they know that regardless of their title, whether regardless of their title, whether regardless of their title, whether they're the family pastor, the they're the family pastor, the they're the family pastor, the disciplehip pastor, they are primarily disciplehip pastor, they are primarily disciplehip pastor, they are primarily team builders. They are not doing the team builders. They are not doing the team builders. They are not doing the ministry. They've embraced this ministry. They've embraced this ministry. They've embraced this Ephesians 4. let's give ministry away to Ephesians 4. let's give ministry away to Ephesians 4. let's give ministry away to the body. And that's their perspective. the body. And that's their perspective. the body. And that's their perspective. You know, sometimes in declining You know, sometimes in declining You know, sometimes in declining churches, you'll have churches, you'll have churches, you'll have um staff who feel like serving's a um staff who feel like serving's a um staff who feel like serving's a burden, right? They don't have the time.

burden, right? They don't have the time. burden, right? They don't have the time. They say no for people. These churches, They say no for people. These churches, They say no for people. These churches, no, they've embraced like 1 Corinthians no, they've embraced like 1 Corinthians no, they've embraced like 1 Corinthians 12, we got to build out the body of 12, we got to build out the body of 12, we got to build out the body of Christ. So, they're pursuing volunteer Christ. So, they're pursuing volunteer Christ. So, they're pursuing volunteer leaders, not just volunteers, but leaders, not just volunteers, but leaders, not just volunteers, but they're they're inviting leaders like to they're they're inviting leaders like to they're they're inviting leaders like to they share a problem. Will you come help they share a problem. Will you come help they share a problem. Will you come help me solve this? They sit across the table me solve this? They sit across the table me solve this? They sit across the table from them and invite them to own from them and invite them to own from them and invite them to own something within the church. Tony often something within the church. Tony often something within the church. Tony often said, "Highle volunteer leaders don't said, "Highle volunteer leaders don't said, "Highle volunteer leaders don't want a job description. They want a want a job description. They want a want a job description. They want a cause. They want a problem, something cause. They want a problem, something cause. They want a problem, something they can dive into." And these churches they can dive into." And these churches they can dive into." And these churches actually build out their org charts to actually build out their org charts to actually build out their org charts to include volunteer leaders in them. So, include volunteer leaders in them. So, include volunteer leaders in them. So, it's an intentional buildout. And then, it's an intentional buildout. And then, it's an intentional buildout. And then, of course, this was actually a quote I of course, this was actually a quote I of course, this was actually a quote I heard at Tony's funeral. was talking to heard at Tony's funeral. was talking to heard at Tony's funeral. was talking to my good friend Kim Meyer and she said, my good friend Kim Meyer and she said, my good friend Kim Meyer and she said, "You know, when Tony hired me at "You know, when Tony hired me at "You know, when Tony hired me at Gringanger, he congratulated me on being Gringanger, he congratulated me on being Gringanger, he congratulated me on being hired and said, um, you're here because hired and said, um, you're here because hired and said, um, you're here because of all your gifts and talents, what of all your gifts and talents, what of all your gifts and talents, what you've accomplished, but just know going you've accomplished, but just know going you've accomplished, but just know going forward, I will never praise you for forward, I will never praise you for forward, I will never praise you for what you do. I will only praise you for what you do. I will only praise you for what you do. I will only praise you for what you give away." So, that's the what you give away." So, that's the what you give away." So, that's the mentality in these churches that are mentality in these churches that are mentality in these churches that are staffing lower and engaging high staffing lower and engaging high staffing lower and engaging high volunteer leaders. How do you think volunteer leaders. How do you think volunteer leaders. How do you think churches, because I run into this churches, because I run into this churches, because I run into this question regularly, it's always, "We question regularly, it's always, "We question regularly, it's always, "We need more staff. We need more staff."

need more staff. We need more staff." need more staff. We need more staff." And sometimes you look at the percentage And sometimes you look at the percentage And sometimes you look at the percentage of their budget that they're spending on of their budget that they're spending on of their budget that they're spending on staff and it's like, "Actually, you're staff and it's like, "Actually, you're staff and it's like, "Actually, you're probably overstaffed." Yeah. Yeah. How probably overstaffed." Yeah. Yeah. How probably overstaffed." Yeah. Yeah. How do you How do they How do you think do you How do they How do you think do you How do they How do you think churches fall into that trap? churches fall into that trap? churches fall into that trap? Well, I'll tell you what, the churches Well, I'll tell you what, the churches Well, I'll tell you what, the churches that often feel like they're the most that often feel like they're the most that often feel like they're the most understaffed are usually the most understaffed are usually the most understaffed are usually the most overstaffed. It's true. It's You're overstaffed. It's true. It's You're overstaffed. It's true. It's You're absolutely right. It's like, you know, absolutely right. It's like, you know, absolutely right. It's like, you know, the people who want to pay you the least the people who want to pay you the least the people who want to pay you the least are the most trouble. It's weird. Yeah. are the most trouble. It's weird. Yeah. are the most trouble. It's weird. Yeah. And I think they've just developed a And I think they've just developed a And I think they've just developed a culture where every time they have a culture where every time they have a culture where every time they have a need, they think they need to hire a need, they think they need to hire a need, they think they need to hire a staff person to do it. And that's a low staff person to do it. And that's a low staff person to do it. And that's a low level of leadership, unfortunately. So, level of leadership, unfortunately. So, level of leadership, unfortunately. So, we're hiring people onto our teams who we're hiring people onto our teams who we're hiring people onto our teams who are really wired for like that tenacity are really wired for like that tenacity are really wired for like that tenacity area, get stuff done. I have to do it area, get stuff done. I have to do it area, get stuff done. I have to do it myself. That's why they're paying me. myself. That's why they're paying me. myself. That's why they're paying me. And they haven't been envisioned and And they haven't been envisioned and And they haven't been envisioned and challenged. and actually give them challenged. and actually give them challenged. and actually give them permission to let things go and to build permission to let things go and to build permission to let things go and to build it out um the way that they should. it out um the way that they should. it out um the way that they should. Other times, I often say it this way, Other times, I often say it this way, Other times, I often say it this way, there's three reasons that you're there's three reasons that you're there's three reasons that you're overstaffed. One is that you have too overstaffed. One is that you have too overstaffed. One is that you have too much ministry that you're trying to do, much ministry that you're trying to do, much ministry that you're trying to do, right? When they're paying above that right? When they're paying above that right? When they're paying above that 55% for staffing or if they're staffed 55% for staffing or if they're staffed 55% for staffing or if they're staffed one full-time person for every 30 35 one full-time person for every 30 35 one full-time person for every 30 35 people, you're either trying to do too people, you're either trying to do too people, you're either trying to do too much ministry. So, really, we're never much ministry. So, really, we're never much ministry. So, really, we're never going to have enough people. we're just going to have enough people. we're just going to have enough people. we're just way too broad in our approach on our way too broad in our approach on our way too broad in our approach on our ministry strategies. The second is they ministry strategies. The second is they ministry strategies. The second is they don't have enough volunteers engaged in don't have enough volunteers engaged in don't have enough volunteers engaged in their ministry. And the third is that their ministry. And the third is that their ministry. And the third is that they're doing both of those. I'm they're doing both of those. I'm they're doing both of those. I'm actually working with the church right actually working with the church right actually working with the church right now and their staff was just in the in

now and their staff was just in the in now and their staff was just in the in the health assessment. We're underst the health assessment. We're underst the health assessment. We're underst staffed. We're underst staffed. And I'm staffed. We're underst staffed. And I'm staffed. We're underst staffed. And I'm sitting there, you know, with the vital sitting there, you know, with the vital sitting there, you know, with the vital signs in my back pocket going, you are signs in my back pocket going, you are signs in my back pocket going, you are so overstaffed. But we'll discover that. so overstaffed. But we'll discover that. so overstaffed. But we'll discover that. What are some of the vital signs? like I What are some of the vital signs? like I What are some of the vital signs? like I I want to get into that a little bit I want to get into that a little bit I want to get into that a little bit more because it is a very common more because it is a very common more because it is a very common problem. Um for someone listening, problem. Um for someone listening, problem. Um for someone listening, they're like, "Yeah, no, I'm definitely they're like, "Yeah, no, I'm definitely they're like, "Yeah, no, I'm definitely underststaffed." How would they know underststaffed." How would they know underststaffed." How would they know that that's accurate? Yeah, there's two that that's accurate? Yeah, there's two that that's accurate? Yeah, there's two metrics I look at. One would be what metrics I look at. One would be what metrics I look at. One would be what percentage of your budget are you percentage of your budget are you percentage of your budget are you spending on staffing? And that's, by the spending on staffing? And that's, by the spending on staffing? And that's, by the way, all staff. It's ministers, it's way, all staff. It's ministers, it's way, all staff. It's ministers, it's operations, it's janitorial. Yes. It's operations, it's janitorial. Yes. It's operations, it's janitorial. Yes. It's benefits. It's all Does that include benefits. It's all Does that include benefits. It's all Does that include contracts? uh like independent contracts? uh like independent contracts? uh like independent contractors. Yeah, we would put that in contractors. Yeah, we would put that in contractors. Yeah, we would put that in that bucket, too. Okay. So, basically that bucket, too. Okay. So, basically that bucket, too. Okay. So, basically anybody that you're paying to do the anybody that you're paying to do the anybody that you're paying to do the work of ministry. Yeah, we are actually work of ministry. Yeah, we are actually work of ministry. Yeah, we are actually we're running um our for to get ready we're running um our for to get ready we're running um our for to get ready for our next unstuck church report. for our next unstuck church report. for our next unstuck church report. We're actually delving into a few more We're actually delving into a few more We're actually delving into a few more questions about what we're paying in questions about what we're paying in questions about what we're paying in contracting dollars and what positions.

contracting dollars and what positions. contracting dollars and what positions. So, I'm excited to be able to share that So, I'm excited to be able to share that So, I'm excited to be able to share that information. There's just very little information. There's just very little information. There's just very little information. It's all inclusive. information. It's all inclusive. information. It's all inclusive. Part-time, full-time, facility, Part-time, full-time, facility, Part-time, full-time, facility, contractors, and what are the healthy contractors, and what are the healthy contractors, and what are the healthy percentages of total budget. So, we percentages of total budget. So, we percentages of total budget. So, we would say healthy growing churches are would say healthy growing churches are would say healthy growing churches are in that 45 to 55%. That's what they're in that 45 to 55%. That's what they're in that 45 to 55%. That's what they're spending on their staffing. Yeah. Um, spending on their staffing. Yeah. Um, spending on their staffing. Yeah. Um, the other helpful metric, and this is the other helpful metric, and this is the other helpful metric, and this is where I'll talk about full-time where I'll talk about full-time where I'll talk about full-time equivalents. So full-time equivalent equivalents. So full-time equivalent equivalents. So full-time equivalent would be, you know, taking all your would be, you know, taking all your would be, you know, taking all your full-time people and say you've got 30 full-time people and say you've got 30 full-time people and say you've got 30 and then you take all of your part-time and then you take all of your part-time and then you take all of your part-time hours, add those together, divide by 40 hours, add those together, divide by 40 hours, add those together, divide by 40 to get a full-time equivalent to that. to get a full-time equivalent to that. to get a full-time equivalent to that. We would say you want to take your We would say you want to take your We would say you want to take your average weekend attendance and divide it average weekend attendance and divide it average weekend attendance and divide it by your FTEES. And what is healthy is by your FTEES. And what is healthy is by your FTEES. And what is healthy is that you hire one full-time equivalent that you hire one full-time equivalent that you hire one full-time equivalent for every 75 people that attend your for every 75 people that attend your for every 75 people that attend your church. Mhm. Um, and by the way, it used church. Mhm. Um, and by the way, it used church. Mhm. Um, and by the way, it used to be 100 to one, but we've kind of to be 100 to one, but we've kind of to be 100 to one, but we've kind of incorporated in the whole trend that incorporated in the whole trend that incorporated in the whole trend that people are going to church less, so we people are going to church less, so we people are going to church less, so we backed off it a bit, but right now, I backed off it a bit, but right now, I backed off it a bit, but right now, I think in our last report, it's something think in our last report, it's something think in our last report, it's something like we're hovering around uh 62, like we're hovering around uh 62, like we're hovering around uh 62, somewhere between 55 and 62. So, we somewhere between 55 and 62. So, we somewhere between 55 and 62. So, we haven't gotten back yet to that healthy haven't gotten back yet to that healthy haven't gotten back yet to that healthy level overall with churches. So, still level overall with churches. So, still level overall with churches. So, still over staffed. Mhm. So according to your over staffed. Mhm. So according to your over staffed. Mhm. So according to your metrics then once your church reaches a metrics then once your church reaches a metrics then once your church reaches a sec let's say 150 you should be looking sec let's say 150 you should be looking sec let's say 150 you should be looking for a second full-time staff person.

for a second full-time staff person. for a second full-time staff person. Yes. I get this question a lot so let me Yes. I get this question a lot so let me Yes. I get this question a lot so let me pick your brain. Who would you hire? pick your brain. Who would you hire? pick your brain. Who would you hire? You're let's say a church plant or let's You're let's say a church plant or let's You're let's say a church plant or let's say you're a legacy church. Uh I'm say you're a legacy church. Uh I'm say you're a legacy church. Uh I'm thinking about the churches that I thinking about the churches that I thinking about the churches that I started at uh yeah a while back now and started at uh yeah a while back now and started at uh yeah a while back now and I was solo solo until we hit about I was solo solo until we hit about I was solo solo until we hit about three years in about 150 and I hired an three years in about 150 and I hired an three years in about 150 and I hired an assistant. Yeah. Just to help. Do you assistant. Yeah. Just to help. Do you assistant. Yeah. Just to help. Do you have a recommend pardon me? A have a recommend pardon me? A have a recommend pardon me? A recommendation as to the best person to recommendation as to the best person to recommendation as to the best person to hire as a second person. hire as a second person. hire as a second person. Yeah. So once the lead pastor can bring Yeah. So once the lead pastor can bring Yeah. So once the lead pastor can bring some people on, obviously you need at some people on, obviously you need at some people on, obviously you need at least in today's context, you need least in today's context, you need least in today's context, you need worship and production. So that that was worship and production. So that that was worship and production. So that that was another hire too around but you can another hire too around but you can another hire too around but you can contract that out for a season. Um but contract that out for a season. Um but contract that out for a season. Um but that's a that's probably the next that's a that's probably the next that's a that's probably the next critical position. And then children's critical position. And then children's critical position. And then children's pastor would be our recommendation. pastor would be our recommendation. pastor would be our recommendation. Get someone over that children's Get someone over that children's Get someone over that children's children ministry side. Yeah. Children's children ministry side. Yeah. Children's children ministry side. Yeah. Children's explain that. Why kids before students?

explain that. Why kids before students? explain that. Why kids before students? Um, it's just as we've gone through and Um, it's just as we've gone through and Um, it's just as we've gone through and looked at the data on things, churches looked at the data on things, churches looked at the data on things, churches that have a healthy, thriving kids that have a healthy, thriving kids that have a healthy, thriving kids ministry, um, then you will actually ministry, um, then you will actually ministry, um, then you will actually have a student ministry going forward. have a student ministry going forward. have a student ministry going forward. But if you put the emphasis on students But if you put the emphasis on students But if you put the emphasis on students and not the kids, you're going to lose and not the kids, you're going to lose and not the kids, you're going to lose that opportunity to connect and attract that opportunity to connect and attract that opportunity to connect and attract and to engage families, young families. and to engage families, young families. and to engage families, young families. A real emphasis in the church in the A real emphasis in the church in the A real emphasis in the church in the last few years has been disciplehip, last few years has been disciplehip, last few years has been disciplehip, disciplehip, disciplehip. I'm getting disciplehip, disciplehip. I'm getting disciplehip, disciplehip. I'm getting more questions all the time about do we more questions all the time about do we more questions all the time about do we need to hire a disciplehip pastor. Would need to hire a disciplehip pastor. Would need to hire a disciplehip pastor. Would that be one of your first hires? And if that be one of your first hires? And if that be one of your first hires? And if not, why not? not, why not? not, why not? Uh probably not the first ones. Um you Uh probably not the first ones. Um you Uh probably not the first ones. Um you know, if we just do the math, if okay, know, if we just do the math, if okay, know, if we just do the math, if okay, now we've got the lead pastor, we've got now we've got the lead pastor, we've got now we've got the lead pastor, we've got worship covered, we've got kids ministry worship covered, we've got kids ministry worship covered, we've got kids ministry covered. There might be some operational covered. There might be some operational covered. There might be some operational role that needs to come on board at some role that needs to come on board at some role that needs to come on board at some point. You know, we talk about point. You know, we talk about point. You know, we talk about facilities, admin, support, something in facilities, admin, support, something in facilities, admin, support, something in there. I would probably think something there. I would probably think something there. I would probably think something like that would show up first. Unless like that would show up first. Unless like that would show up first. Unless you've got a high level volunteer who you've got a high level volunteer who you've got a high level volunteer who can run finances. I guess you know we do can run finances. I guess you know we do can run finances. I guess you know we do have committees and things. So if that have committees and things. So if that have committees and things. So if that stuff is covered, yeah, I would go stuff is covered, yeah, I would go stuff is covered, yeah, I would go towards disciplehip. I'm backpedaling a towards disciplehip. I'm backpedaling a towards disciplehip. I'm backpedaling a little bit. But that leader who can little bit. But that leader who can little bit. But that leader who can oversee all of those next steps that you oversee all of those next steps that you oversee all of those next steps that you want people to take beyond the weekend want people to take beyond the weekend want people to take beyond the weekend service. H another interesting trend service. H another interesting trend service. H another interesting trend that has been in your studies and other that has been in your studies and other that has been in your studies and other studies for years and and Tony was the studies for years and and Tony was the studies for years and and Tony was the first one to point this out to me. Um of first one to point this out to me. Um of first one to point this out to me. Um of course yeah declining churches actually

course yeah declining churches actually course yeah declining churches actually have higher per capita giving. Yes, they have higher per capita giving. Yes, they have higher per capita giving. Yes, they do. And that's like totally do. And that's like totally do. And that's like totally counterintuitive. So, you got money in counterintuitive. So, you got money in counterintuitive. So, you got money in the bank, you're exceeding budget, and the bank, you're exceeding budget, and the bank, you're exceeding budget, and you're you're actually declining, but you're you're actually declining, but you're you're actually declining, but growing churches are often strapped for growing churches are often strapped for growing churches are often strapped for cash. True. Did I get that right? Well, cash. True. Did I get that right? Well, cash. True. Did I get that right? Well, here's what we No one metric will give here's what we No one metric will give here's what we No one metric will give you a a good picture of your health, you a a good picture of your health, you a a good picture of your health, right? Or the story of your church. But right? Or the story of your church. But right? Or the story of your church. But let's just talk about this financial let's just talk about this financial let's just talk about this financial one, you know, when it's when it's one, you know, when it's when it's one, you know, when it's when it's strong. Um let's just say for example if strong. Um let's just say for example if strong. Um let's just say for example if your per capita giving is increasing your per capita giving is increasing your per capita giving is increasing it's high and so is your attendance it's high and so is your attendance it's high and so is your attendance number of people being baptized number number of people being baptized number number of people being baptized number of people serving then celebrate the of people serving then celebrate the of people serving then celebrate the increased giving because it looks like increased giving because it looks like increased giving because it looks like it's just a reflection of people it's just a reflection of people it's just a reflection of people following Jesus and becoming more following Jesus and becoming more following Jesus and becoming more generous. But let's say your growth is generous. But let's say your growth is generous. But let's say your growth is actually down 5%. Um and the percentage actually down 5%. Um and the percentage actually down 5%. Um and the percentage of people serving is like 80% groups 80% of people serving is like 80% groups 80% of people serving is like 80% groups 80% and giving is up. Well, warning, and giving is up. Well, warning, and giving is up. Well, warning, warning, warning. Those are telltale warning, warning. Those are telltale warning, warning. Those are telltale signs the church is becoming insider signs the church is becoming insider signs the church is becoming insider focused because they're moving from the focused because they're moving from the focused because they're moving from the momentum side of the church life cycle momentum side of the church life cycle momentum side of the church life cycle to the declining to the declining to the declining side. Does that make sense? It does cuz side. Does that make sense? It does cuz side. Does that make sense? It does cuz I study this stuff, but can you explain I study this stuff, but can you explain I study this stuff, but can you explain it a little bit more? It would be like, it a little bit more? It would be like, it a little bit more? It would be like, wait, what is what is that a sign of wait, what is what is that a sign of wait, what is what is that a sign of like not enough new people or what?

like not enough new people or what? like not enough new people or what? Yeah. Uh well, attendance is down, but Yeah. Uh well, attendance is down, but Yeah. Uh well, attendance is down, but more telling is that they have so many more telling is that they have so many more telling is that they have so many people in serving in groups and giving people in serving in groups and giving people in serving in groups and giving that there's nobody new offsetting any that there's nobody new offsetting any that there's nobody new offsetting any of those numbers. So, it looks good on a of those numbers. So, it looks good on a of those numbers. So, it looks good on a report card to have 80% 80%, but there's report card to have 80% 80%, but there's report card to have 80% 80%, but there's a story behind that number, right? And a story behind that number, right? And a story behind that number, right? And by the way, overall if giving looks by the way, overall if giving looks by the way, overall if giving looks strong but your reach metrics are strong but your reach metrics are strong but your reach metrics are lagging, that's also a warning sign lagging, that's also a warning sign lagging, that's also a warning sign because if you don't interrupt that, the because if you don't interrupt that, the because if you don't interrupt that, the church will be moving towards church will be moving towards church will be moving towards maintenance and becoming an insider maintenance and becoming an insider maintenance and becoming an insider church focus club. And by reach metrics, church focus club. And by reach metrics, church focus club. And by reach metrics, I mean in-person attendance, that's I mean in-person attendance, that's I mean in-person attendance, that's going to give you an indication if new going to give you an indication if new going to give you an indication if new people are connecting to your church, people are connecting to your church, people are connecting to your church, online attendance, uh new people in your online attendance, uh new people in your online attendance, uh new people in your database, uh baptisms or decisions to database, uh baptisms or decisions to database, uh baptisms or decisions to follow Jesus. Those are all lead follow Jesus. Those are all lead follow Jesus. Those are all lead indicators that point to a growing indicators that point to a growing indicators that point to a growing church versus a declining church. Okay. church versus a declining church. Okay. church versus a declining church. Okay. Super helpful. Um, what are two or three Super helpful. Um, what are two or three Super helpful. Um, what are two or three other surprising data points like you other surprising data points like you other surprising data points like you know that most leaders would find know that most leaders would find know that most leaders would find surprising in your reports in the surprising in your reports in the surprising in your reports in the studies that you do of churches? Sure.

studies that you do of churches? Sure. studies that you do of churches? Sure. Like the differences between growing and Like the differences between growing and Like the differences between growing and declining churches. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. declining churches. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. declining churches. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So, none of it surprises me. I've been So, none of it surprises me. I've been So, none of it surprises me. I've been looking at these differences between looking at these differences between looking at these differences between growing and declining churches for 10 growing and declining churches for 10 growing and declining churches for 10 years now and the data consistently years now and the data consistently years now and the data consistently repeats itself. Like growing churches repeats itself. Like growing churches repeats itself. Like growing churches are 50% more likely to offer one style are 50% more likely to offer one style are 50% more likely to offer one style of worship. Okay, the key word there is of worship. Okay, the key word there is of worship. Okay, the key word there is only. Declining churches are much more only. Declining churches are much more only. Declining churches are much more likely to have multiple styles of likely to have multiple styles of likely to have multiple styles of worship for people. Okay, can we break worship for people. Okay, can we break worship for people. Okay, can we break that one down? I want to hear them, but that one down? I want to hear them, but that one down? I want to hear them, but I want to do them one by one. Sure. That I want to do them one by one. Sure. That I want to do them one by one. Sure. That totally resonates with me. Mhm. So in totally resonates with me. Mhm. So in totally resonates with me. Mhm. So in other words, is that like they either other words, is that like they either other words, is that like they either started with one style of worship or started with one style of worship or started with one style of worship or somebody bit the bullet and said enough somebody bit the bullet and said enough somebody bit the bullet and said enough with this blended traditional with this blended traditional with this blended traditional contemporary stuff. I'm going to, you contemporary stuff. I'm going to, you contemporary stuff. I'm going to, you know, go through a season of discontent. know, go through a season of discontent. know, go through a season of discontent. Like why why is that such a such a a Like why why is that such a such a a Like why why is that such a such a a consistent data point? Like what is consistent data point? Like what is consistent data point? Like what is underneath that? underneath that? underneath that? I think when churches nail down one I think when churches nail down one I think when churches nail down one worship style, they have clarity on who worship style, they have clarity on who worship style, they have clarity on who they're trying to reach and they're they're trying to reach and they're they're trying to reach and they're saying, "What is the best hour we can saying, "What is the best hour we can saying, "What is the best hour we can put together that's going to reach put together that's going to reach put together that's going to reach them?" I think when the churches that them?" I think when the churches that them?" I think when the churches that have multiple worship venues or styles, have multiple worship venues or styles, have multiple worship venues or styles, they're trying to keep people happy. So, they're trying to keep people happy. So, they're trying to keep people happy. So, and then that blended example, I love and then that blended example, I love and then that blended example, I love it. I think a blended service, nobody it. I think a blended service, nobody it. I think a blended service, nobody likes it. Nobody wins in that one, likes it. Nobody wins in that one, likes it. Nobody wins in that one, right? It doesn't it doesn't reach right? It doesn't it doesn't reach right? It doesn't it doesn't reach anyone. But when we try to keep these anyone. But when we try to keep these anyone. But when we try to keep these other services alive, we aren't thinking other services alive, we aren't thinking other services alive, we aren't thinking strategically. Well, I should back off.

strategically. Well, I should back off. strategically. Well, I should back off. There are some churches that I coach and There are some churches that I coach and There are some churches that I coach and say, "Yes, keep your traditional service say, "Yes, keep your traditional service say, "Yes, keep your traditional service because of the legacy, because of, you because of the legacy, because of, you because of the legacy, because of, you know, factors. It's a large group of know, factors. It's a large group of know, factors. It's a large group of people, but we really talk about we have people, but we really talk about we have people, but we really talk about we have to design what the main offering is to design what the main offering is to design what the main offering is going to be and we need to more going to be and we need to more going to be and we need to more internally like let's not promote that internally like let's not promote that internally like let's not promote that service. Let's not confuse people who service. Let's not confuse people who service. Let's not confuse people who want to come to our church by telling want to come to our church by telling want to come to our church by telling them come at this time for this, this them come at this time for this, this them come at this time for this, this time for that, that time for this. We time for that, that time for this. We time for that, that time for this. We want to be really clear, frontf facing want to be really clear, frontf facing want to be really clear, frontf facing on what is the main invitable service on what is the main invitable service on what is the main invitable service we're trying to bring people to. But we're trying to bring people to. But we're trying to bring people to. But there are some church to honor that there are some church to honor that there are some church to honor that group. Yeah. Why would you give some group. Yeah. Why would you give some group. Yeah. Why would you give some churches a pass on that? churches a pass on that? churches a pass on that? What would you say? It's okay for you, What would you say? It's okay for you, What would you say? It's okay for you, but not for most people. Because I bet but not for most people. Because I bet but not for most people. Because I bet you most listeners are like, "Oh, that's you most listeners are like, "Oh, that's you most listeners are like, "Oh, that's me. I must get a pass." Yeah. I would me. I must get a pass." Yeah. I would me. I must get a pass." Yeah. I would say try not to take the pass. But I say try not to take the pass. But I say try not to take the pass. But I there's a large church I'm working with there's a large church I'm working with there's a large church I'm working with in Oklahoma right now and they're just in Oklahoma right now and they're just in Oklahoma right now and they're just learning how to turn the ship's rudder. learning how to turn the ship's rudder. learning how to turn the ship's rudder. They're just starting to turn their They're just starting to turn their They're just starting to turn their church. And I think if they if they church. And I think if they if they church. And I think if they if they kicked it into we're we're a lake family kicked it into we're we're a lake family kicked it into we're we're a lake family out here, right? In Minnesota, we're on out here, right? In Minnesota, we're on out here, right? In Minnesota, we're on lakes over the summer. You kind of know lakes over the summer. You kind of know lakes over the summer. You kind of know like if you're in a speedboat and you go like if you're in a speedboat and you go like if you're in a speedboat and you go from 1 to five, you're going to shoot a from 1 to five, you're going to shoot a from 1 to five, you're going to shoot a lot of people off the back of the boat.

lot of people off the back of the boat. lot of people off the back of the boat. That's what they're doing. They're That's what they're doing. They're That's what they're doing. They're trying to get up to speed, but they're trying to get up to speed, but they're trying to get up to speed, but they're going to have to make some wise going to have to make some wise going to have to make some wise strategic timing decisions about how strategic timing decisions about how strategic timing decisions about how they get to their destination. So, they get to their destination. So, they get to their destination. So, churches, they need to find a churches, they need to find a churches, they need to find a destination and then create a plan to destination and then create a plan to destination and then create a plan to get there. Because here's the deal. get there. Because here's the deal. get there. Because here's the deal. Whatever you decide, you're going to Whatever you decide, you're going to Whatever you decide, you're going to lose people. It's just choosing who lose people. It's just choosing who lose people. It's just choosing who you're going to lose. you're going to lose. you're going to lose. Is there a timeline that you recommend? Is there a timeline that you recommend? Is there a timeline that you recommend? When when I was on that journey, that When when I was on that journey, that When when I was on that journey, that was a number of years ago now. Um, I was a number of years ago now. Um, I was a number of years ago now. Um, I picked five years. It's like, okay, picked five years. It's like, okay, picked five years. It's like, okay, we're here, but in five years, this is we're here, but in five years, this is we're here, but in five years, this is what we're going to be. And we blended what we're going to be. And we blended what we're going to be. And we blended and it was sort of blending in a little and it was sort of blending in a little and it was sort of blending in a little bit of the new stuff. And then at the bit of the new stuff. And then at the bit of the new stuff. And then at the end, it was blending out the last of the end, it was blending out the last of the end, it was blending out the last of the old until we made the transition. Yeah. old until we made the transition. Yeah. old until we made the transition. Yeah. Yeah. I think that whatever aligns with Yeah. I think that whatever aligns with Yeah. I think that whatever aligns with your vision because vision has to your vision because vision has to your vision because vision has to precede these changes. The why has to precede these changes. The why has to precede these changes. The why has to become known. People need to get excited become known. People need to get excited become known. People need to get excited about the why. And so, you know, if about the why. And so, you know, if about the why. And so, you know, if there's a three-year vision, it it there's a three-year vision, it it there's a three-year vision, it it should be included in that. what we're should be included in that. what we're should be included in that. what we're so everyone knows what we're working so everyone knows what we're working so everyone knows what we're working towards, what the milestones will be.

towards, what the milestones will be. towards, what the milestones will be. And again, sometimes three years to five And again, sometimes three years to five And again, sometimes three years to five years, a lot of those issues take care years, a lot of those issues take care years, a lot of those issues take care of themselves, right? We're we're it's of themselves, right? We're we're it's of themselves, right? We're we're it's we're moving towards it. So, and you we're moving towards it. So, and you we're moving towards it. So, and you know, when the churches start to see how know, when the churches start to see how know, when the churches start to see how making some of these strategic changes making some of these strategic changes making some of these strategic changes are beginning to fill their seats with are beginning to fill their seats with are beginning to fill their seats with their kids and their grandkids, it's their kids and their grandkids, it's their kids and their grandkids, it's very motivating to get behind and very motivating to get behind and very motivating to get behind and support the change. What are some other support the change. What are some other support the change. What are some other surprising differences between growing surprising differences between growing surprising differences between growing and declining churches? and declining churches? and declining churches? Again, probably not surprising, but Again, probably not surprising, but Again, probably not surprising, but continuing again year-over-year, continuing again year-over-year, continuing again year-over-year, declining churches have larger church declining churches have larger church declining churches have larger church boards and four times as many boards and four times as many boards and four times as many committees. And so these churches, the committees. And so these churches, the committees. And so these churches, the growing churches, right, they have more growing churches, right, they have more growing churches, right, they have more volunteer leaders. They put leaders into volunteer leaders. They put leaders into volunteer leaders. They put leaders into ministry, not into meetings. And they ministry, not into meetings. And they ministry, not into meetings. And they get clarity around this is how we make get clarity around this is how we make get clarity around this is how we make decisions. This is where we have input. decisions. This is where we have input. decisions. This is where we have input. But declining churches with these large But declining churches with these large But declining churches with these large boards and these large groups of boards and these large groups of boards and these large groups of committees, they might have high committees, they might have high committees, they might have high volunteer percentages, but they're all volunteer percentages, but they're all volunteer percentages, but they're all caught up in meetings and they aren't caught up in meetings and they aren't caught up in meetings and they aren't really doing ministry.

really doing ministry. really doing ministry. They're making decisions, not disciples. They're making decisions, not disciples. They're making decisions, not disciples. Yeah. Anything else that is surprising Yeah. Anything else that is surprising Yeah. Anything else that is surprising between large and small or declining and between large and small or declining and between large and small or declining and and growing churches? and growing churches? and growing churches? Nothing that I can say is surprising. I Nothing that I can say is surprising. I Nothing that I can say is surprising. I mean, I could throw out the one too that mean, I could throw out the one too that mean, I could throw out the one too that growing churches use small group growing churches use small group growing churches use small group strategies. declining churches use strategies. declining churches use strategies. declining churches use Sunday school strategies. And we've been Sunday school strategies. And we've been Sunday school strategies. And we've been saying that for years, but the data saying that for years, but the data saying that for years, but the data keeps coming in to parallel that. keeps coming in to parallel that. keeps coming in to parallel that. Gen Z, you argue, are dramatically under Gen Z, you argue, are dramatically under Gen Z, you argue, are dramatically under represented on church staff teams. Can represented on church staff teams. Can represented on church staff teams. Can you give us an idea on how under you give us an idea on how under you give us an idea on how under reppresented and then what are some reppresented and then what are some reppresented and then what are some solutions to that? solutions to that? solutions to that? Yeah, I don't know if I can speak to how Yeah, I don't know if I can speak to how Yeah, I don't know if I can speak to how underrepresented, but I I can talk about underrepresented, but I I can talk about underrepresented, but I I can talk about solutions and just want to credit Dan solutions and just want to credit Dan solutions and just want to credit Dan Zambardi. He's the executive pastor at Zambardi. He's the executive pastor at Zambardi. He's the executive pastor at Sandals Church out in California. We Sandals Church out in California. We Sandals Church out in California. We interviewed him on our podcast a while interviewed him on our podcast a while interviewed him on our podcast a while ago and what they've really embraced is ago and what they've really embraced is ago and what they've really embraced is this come follow me approach to this this come follow me approach to this this come follow me approach to this generation. He said um part of my generation. He said um part of my generation. He said um part of my strategy for equipping is to bring young strategy for equipping is to bring young strategy for equipping is to bring young leaders to as many significant meetings leaders to as many significant meetings leaders to as many significant meetings and presentations as possible to and presentations as possible to and presentations as possible to accelerate their development. So if we accelerate their development. So if we accelerate their development. So if we want to empower next generation leaders, want to empower next generation leaders, want to empower next generation leaders, we have to equip them, but we also have we have to equip them, but we also have we have to equip them, but we also have to invite them along on that journey. He to invite them along on that journey. He to invite them along on that journey. He cited, you know, what Jesus modeled, cited, you know, what Jesus modeled, cited, you know, what Jesus modeled, come follow me, I will send you out to come follow me, I will send you out to come follow me, I will send you out to fish for people. So we need to be fish for people. So we need to be fish for people. So we need to be intentional about looking for those come intentional about looking for those come intentional about looking for those come follow me moments to raise up the next follow me moments to raise up the next follow me moments to raise up the next generation. We need to give them a seat

generation. We need to give them a seat generation. We need to give them a seat at the table, right? They don't they at the table, right? They don't they at the table, right? They don't they don't want a job. They want to they want don't want a job. They want to they want don't want a job. They want to they want to just like all of us, we want to to just like all of us, we want to to just like all of us, we want to contribute. We want to be heard. So you contribute. We want to be heard. So you contribute. We want to be heard. So you don't have to put them on your senior don't have to put them on your senior don't have to put them on your senior leadership team, but you should get them leadership team, but you should get them leadership team, but you should get them a voice and a seat at the table now and a voice and a seat at the table now and a voice and a seat at the table now and again. You know, as you preach, right? again. You know, as you preach, right? again. You know, as you preach, right? They should be in those message They should be in those message They should be in those message meetings. They should be giving feedback meetings. They should be giving feedback meetings. They should be giving feedback and and part of it. So it's just about and and part of it. So it's just about and and part of it. So it's just about engaging them, not pigeon holing them engaging them, not pigeon holing them engaging them, not pigeon holing them and and not giving them just a job, but and and not giving them just a job, but and and not giving them just a job, but getting their voice in the mix and getting their voice in the mix and getting their voice in the mix and valuing their perspective. valuing their perspective. valuing their perspective. So I sometimes get questions from So I sometimes get questions from So I sometimes get questions from leaders who are like like is is the leaders who are like like is is the leaders who are like like is is the future does it really belong to larger future does it really belong to larger future does it really belong to larger churches and multi-sight churches and a churches and multi-sight churches and a churches and multi-sight churches and a lot of the data that I'm seeing suggests lot of the data that I'm seeing suggests lot of the data that I'm seeing suggests that perhaps it does that the vast maj I that perhaps it does that the vast maj I that perhaps it does that the vast maj I think Warren Bird says the vast majority think Warren Bird says the vast majority think Warren Bird says the vast majority of people attend a larger church with of people attend a larger church with of people attend a larger church with more than one location like yes there more than one location like yes there more than one location like yes there are more churches that don't have are more churches that don't have are more churches that don't have multiple locations and are smaller but multiple locations and are smaller but multiple locations and are smaller but when you look at x you know millions of when you look at x you know millions of when you look at x you know millions of people attending church the larger people attending church the larger people attending church the larger multi-sight churches are over multi-sight churches are over multi-sight churches are over represented in that number. What is your represented in that number. What is your represented in that number. What is your data showing?

data showing? data showing? Yeah, I mean we're seeing more and more Yeah, I mean we're seeing more and more Yeah, I mean we're seeing more and more churches are going multi-sight, the ones churches are going multi-sight, the ones churches are going multi-sight, the ones that are growing. And it makes sense, that are growing. And it makes sense, that are growing. And it makes sense, right? Because multi-sight's not new right? Because multi-sight's not new right? Because multi-sight's not new anymore. We have 25 years of data. Um, anymore. We have 25 years of data. Um, anymore. We have 25 years of data. Um, we know how it works and it it helps it we know how it works and it it helps it we know how it works and it it helps it helps you have the benefits of being a helps you have the benefits of being a helps you have the benefits of being a big church, but it also helps you be a big church, but it also helps you be a big church, but it also helps you be a small church, right? We're both big and small church, right? We're both big and small church, right? We're both big and small when we're in multi-sight. And so small when we're in multi-sight. And so small when we're in multi-sight. And so for churches that are growing, you're for churches that are growing, you're for churches that are growing, you're eventually going to have this problem of eventually going to have this problem of eventually going to have this problem of how are we going to expand and now that how are we going to expand and now that how are we going to expand and now that out of space and this flywheel is going out of space and this flywheel is going out of space and this flywheel is going I was just working with the church again I was just working with the church again I was just working with the church again in the Atlanta area and he hired me for in the Atlanta area and he hired me for in the Atlanta area and he hired me for one thing to help on staffing and one thing to help on staffing and one thing to help on staffing and structure but I'm like dude what are you structure but I'm like dude what are you structure but I'm like dude what are you going to do? You're you're out of space going to do? You're you're out of space going to do? You're you're out of space and um we probably need to get a and um we probably need to get a and um we probably need to get a multiplication plan and process for you. multiplication plan and process for you. multiplication plan and process for you. So when you've got this flywheel, you've So when you've got this flywheel, you've So when you've got this flywheel, you've got to get ahead of it and figure out got to get ahead of it and figure out got to get ahead of it and figure out what's our plan to multiply. And of what's our plan to multiply. And of what's our plan to multiply. And of course, multi-sight is an option. So is course, multi-sight is an option. So is course, multi-sight is an option. So is church planting. Um, and there's hybrids church planting. Um, and there's hybrids church planting. Um, and there's hybrids in between those two. But I think what in between those two. But I think what in between those two. But I think what we've seen play out is that multi-sight we've seen play out is that multi-sight we've seen play out is that multi-sight has been a more successful way to plant has been a more successful way to plant has been a more successful way to plant a healthy, thriving church. And so I a healthy, thriving church. And so I a healthy, thriving church. And so I think the model is just getting more think the model is just getting more think the model is just getting more adapted and it's helping healthy adapted and it's helping healthy adapted and it's helping healthy churches kind of repot. I'm a gardener, churches kind of repot. I'm a gardener, churches kind of repot. I'm a gardener, right? So kind of divide and rroot and right? So kind of divide and rroot and right? So kind of divide and rroot and help reach more people. I believe Tony help reach more people. I believe Tony help reach more people. I believe Tony used to say and and I think the unstuck used to say and and I think the unstuck used to say and and I think the unstuck group would say and correct me if I'm group would say and correct me if I'm group would say and correct me if I'm wrong that multi-sight is not a growth wrong that multi-sight is not a growth wrong that multi-sight is not a growth strategy. That's right. It's like oh we

strategy. That's right. It's like oh we strategy. That's right. It's like oh we want to reach more people so therefore want to reach more people so therefore want to reach more people so therefore we'll launch another location that it is we'll launch another location that it is we'll launch another location that it is something that churches that are already something that churches that are already something that churches that are already growing do. Can you ex first of all is growing do. Can you ex first of all is growing do. Can you ex first of all is that accurate? Secondly, can you explain that accurate? Secondly, can you explain that accurate? Secondly, can you explain that distinction? Yeah. while it that distinction? Yeah. while it that distinction? Yeah. while it produces growth in many cases, it is not produces growth in many cases, it is not produces growth in many cases, it is not a growth strategy. It's an evangelism a growth strategy. It's an evangelism a growth strategy. It's an evangelism strategy. Um, so there's very specific strategy. Um, so there's very specific strategy. Um, so there's very specific things, you know, that we coach churches things, you know, that we coach churches things, you know, that we coach churches on when they want to go multi-sight. You on when they want to go multi-sight. You on when they want to go multi-sight. You know, churches that do really well with know, churches that do really well with know, churches that do really well with multi-sight, they have health and multi-sight, they have health and multi-sight, they have health and momentum before they launch a new momentum before they launch a new momentum before they launch a new location, right? They launch out of this location, right? They launch out of this location, right? They launch out of this place of health and momentum and they're place of health and momentum and they're place of health and momentum and they're replicating something that's already replicating something that's already replicating something that's already healthy. They're also larger. Um, I healthy. They're also larger. Um, I healthy. They're also larger. Um, I don't know how this overlays in Canada don't know how this overlays in Canada don't know how this overlays in Canada because I know churches are, you know, because I know churches are, you know, because I know churches are, you know, there's larger churches in America than there's larger churches in America than there's larger churches in America than there are in Canada, but you need to there are in Canada, but you need to there are in Canada, but you need to have they they launch well because they have they they launch well because they have they they launch well because they launch with a healthy core. In in the launch with a healthy core. In in the launch with a healthy core. In in the States, we say you need to be at least a States, we say you need to be at least a States, we say you need to be at least a thousand before launch, preferably 2,000 thousand before launch, preferably 2,000 thousand before launch, preferably 2,000 because it's this critical mass and not because it's this critical mass and not because it's this critical mass and not only launching a new location well, but only launching a new location well, but only launching a new location well, but maintaining the health of the original maintaining the health of the original maintaining the health of the original location. So, those numbers, those location. So, those numbers, those location. So, those numbers, those percentages would probably change. You percentages would probably change. You percentages would probably change. You know, I I'm working with Canadian know, I I'm working with Canadian know, I I'm working with Canadian churches that are maybe 600 and they're churches that are maybe 600 and they're churches that are maybe 600 and they're going multi-sight. So, they don't need a going multi-sight. So, they don't need a going multi-sight. So, they don't need a thousand, but they probably need a good thousand, but they probably need a good thousand, but they probably need a good 60 to 100 to seed and to be in that new 60 to 100 to seed and to be in that new 60 to 100 to seed and to be in that new church because they need to. And by the church because they need to. And by the church because they need to. And by the way, we say send people who live in that way, we say send people who live in that way, we say send people who live in that area. That's a mistake we often make. We area. That's a mistake we often make. We area. That's a mistake we often make. We recruit people and say, "Will you go recruit people and say, "Will you go recruit people and say, "Will you go there for a year?" And it's like, "Well, there for a year?" And it's like, "Well, there for a year?" And it's like, "Well, no. We want you to live there. We want

no. We want you to live there. We want no. We want you to live there. We want you to invite your friends there. We you to invite your friends there. We you to invite your friends there. We want you to be a part of it." But you're want you to be a part of it." But you're want you to be a part of it." But you're sending out a healthy core that's going sending out a healthy core that's going sending out a healthy core that's going to serve, give, invite. to serve, give, invite. to serve, give, invite. So your recommendation is in the US, you So your recommendation is in the US, you So your recommendation is in the US, you got to be a thousand, ideally 2,000. got to be a thousand, ideally 2,000. got to be a thousand, ideally 2,000. Mhm. Wow. Yeah. We have bigger Mhm. Wow. Yeah. We have bigger Mhm. Wow. Yeah. We have bigger buildings. I don't know. buildings. I don't know. buildings. I don't know. Okay. Um, what other surprising findings Okay. Um, what other surprising findings Okay. Um, what other surprising findings do you have that church leaders should do you have that church leaders should do you have that church leaders should be paying attention to? Couple of trends be paying attention to? Couple of trends be paying attention to? Couple of trends for my seat. for my seat. for my seat. First off, there is a growing challenge First off, there is a growing challenge First off, there is a growing challenge for finding and hiring leaders on church for finding and hiring leaders on church for finding and hiring leaders on church staff teams. I'm so glad you raised staff teams. I'm so glad you raised staff teams. I'm so glad you raised that. Yeah, it's everywhere I go. And that. Yeah, it's everywhere I go. And that. Yeah, it's everywhere I go. And you know, unfortunately, when they're in you know, unfortunately, when they're in you know, unfortunately, when they're in a place of growth, it's even more of a a place of growth, it's even more of a a place of growth, it's even more of a place of panic because they don't have place of panic because they don't have place of panic because they don't have the people on the bench to raise up. And the people on the bench to raise up. And the people on the bench to raise up. And so, I just think churches, you need to so, I just think churches, you need to so, I just think churches, you need to have a plan. You need to play the movie have a plan. You need to play the movie have a plan. You need to play the movie forward and go, if we're g just like forward and go, if we're g just like forward and go, if we're g just like double your church size, if we're 500 double your church size, if we're 500 double your church size, if we're 500 people today and we're growing, at some people today and we're growing, at some people today and we're growing, at some point we're going to be a thousand. What point we're going to be a thousand. What point we're going to be a thousand. What does our structure look like? And who do does our structure look like? And who do does our structure look like? And who do we need to be looking for? Because we we need to be looking for? Because we we need to be looking for? Because we need to get systems in place to raise up need to get systems in place to raise up need to get systems in place to raise up the future leaders. You know, these the future leaders. You know, these the future leaders. You know, these outside hires can be good, but if we're outside hires can be good, but if we're outside hires can be good, but if we're always banking on just posting a job and always banking on just posting a job and always banking on just posting a job and hoping the ideal candidate comes to us, hoping the ideal candidate comes to us, hoping the ideal candidate comes to us, it's not a good strategy. Um, you know, it's not a good strategy. Um, you know, it's not a good strategy. Um, you know, I look at our transition at Unstuck.

I look at our transition at Unstuck. I look at our transition at Unstuck. Part of the reason we've made it through Part of the reason we've made it through Part of the reason we've made it through our transition is because we've had an our transition is because we've had an our transition is because we've had an intentional development plan for our intentional development plan for our intentional development plan for our leaders for us. So, we all need to be leaders for us. So, we all need to be leaders for us. So, we all need to be thinking about our bench and figure out thinking about our bench and figure out thinking about our bench and figure out how are we going to get volunteers how are we going to get volunteers how are we going to get volunteers engaged. How are we going to create engaged. How are we going to create engaged. How are we going to create volunteer leader positions so that when volunteer leader positions so that when volunteer leader positions so that when we have an opening, we have a bench we have an opening, we have a bench we have an opening, we have a bench within our own church to look at to hire within our own church to look at to hire within our own church to look at to hire people in. I don't think seminaries are people in. I don't think seminaries are people in. I don't think seminaries are growing. So for churches who have been growing. So for churches who have been growing. So for churches who have been relying on seminaries to produce their relying on seminaries to produce their relying on seminaries to produce their next pastor, we just have to raise these next pastor, we just have to raise these next pastor, we just have to raise these people up. Do you agree with that? I people up. Do you agree with that? I people up. Do you agree with that? I totally agree with it. And you know, totally agree with it. And you know, totally agree with it. And you know, this will be maybe my last question for this will be maybe my last question for this will be maybe my last question for you, Amy. Most people out there like you, Amy. Most people out there like you, Amy. Most people out there like agreed. How like what what are the best agreed. How like what what are the best agreed. How like what what are the best ways to do it? And you know, I think ways to do it? And you know, I think ways to do it? And you know, I think about that. I was at Kexus, the church I about that. I was at Kexus, the church I about that. I was at Kexus, the church I helped found yesterday, working with a helped found yesterday, working with a helped found yesterday, working with a couple of NextGen communicators in their couple of NextGen communicators in their couple of NextGen communicators in their early 30s. And I mean these are leaders early 30s. And I mean these are leaders early 30s. And I mean these are leaders we've prayed for, leaders we've uh, you we've prayed for, leaders we've uh, you we've prayed for, leaders we've uh, you know, raised up to some extent. And I know, raised up to some extent. And I know, raised up to some extent. And I know when you find that really great know when you find that really great know when you find that really great communicator or two, it is really communicator or two, it is really communicator or two, it is really difficult. Like that's not just, oh difficult. Like that's not just, oh difficult. Like that's not just, oh yeah, we had 20 to choose from. No, yeah, we had 20 to choose from. No, yeah, we had 20 to choose from. No, usually you don't. And even for me to usually you don't. And even for me to usually you don't. And even for me to find a successor, that was like a 5-year find a successor, that was like a 5-year find a successor, that was like a 5-year project. And it was someone we hired project. And it was someone we hired project. And it was someone we hired almost a decade before he became lead almost a decade before he became lead almost a decade before he became lead pastor. But it was in house. Like just pastor. But it was in house. Like just pastor. But it was in house. Like just raising him up in house. raising open raising him up in house. raising open raising him up in house. raising open house rather than me. I'm tapping out.

house rather than me. I'm tapping out. house rather than me. I'm tapping out. We're going to bring someone else in We're going to bring someone else in We're going to bring someone else in from the outside. Right. But that is from the outside. Right. But that is from the outside. Right. But that is really hard work. Mhm. What What advice really hard work. Mhm. What What advice really hard work. Mhm. What What advice do you have for leaders who are like, do you have for leaders who are like, do you have for leaders who are like, "Yeah, I don't I don't even know." Well, "Yeah, I don't I don't even know." Well, "Yeah, I don't I don't even know." Well, there are some roles on your team that there are some roles on your team that there are some roles on your team that you they don't need to be specialists in you they don't need to be specialists in you they don't need to be specialists in it, if that makes sense. You know, when it, if that makes sense. You know, when it, if that makes sense. You know, when I talked about hire a disciplehip leader I talked about hire a disciplehip leader I talked about hire a disciplehip leader who oversees all the next steps you want who oversees all the next steps you want who oversees all the next steps you want people to take after they attend your people to take after they attend your people to take after they attend your weekend service, you just need a weekend service, you just need a weekend service, you just need a builder. You need someone who's builder. You need someone who's builder. You need someone who's relational. Well, obviously we get, you relational. Well, obviously we get, you relational. Well, obviously we get, you know, they need to love Jesus. They need know, they need to love Jesus. They need know, they need to love Jesus. They need to have a strong faith. They need to to have a strong faith. They need to to have a strong faith. They need to have that type of background or you need have that type of background or you need have that type of background or you need to provide some for them, but they just to provide some for them, but they just to provide some for them, but they just need to know how to build teams and how need to know how to build teams and how need to know how to build teams and how to cast vision and how to focus on to cast vision and how to focus on to cast vision and how to focus on developing people versus developing developing people versus developing developing people versus developing products, right? Um now, if you need a products, right? Um now, if you need a products, right? Um now, if you need a um a youth pastor who needs to teach, um a youth pastor who needs to teach, um a youth pastor who needs to teach, well, that's a little bit more of a well, that's a little bit more of a well, that's a little bit more of a specialty. You're going to be looking a specialty. You're going to be looking a specialty. You're going to be looking a little bit harder for that one over little bit harder for that one over little bit harder for that one over time. that you need environments where time. that you need environments where time. that you need environments where you can try out people's giftings. And you can try out people's giftings. And you can try out people's giftings. And by the way, I don't recommend on the by the way, I don't recommend on the by the way, I don't recommend on the weekend trying out those gifts. I feel weekend trying out those gifts. I feel weekend trying out those gifts. I feel like the weekend is a place to use like the weekend is a place to use like the weekend is a place to use developed gifts, not try out new ones.

developed gifts, not try out new ones. developed gifts, not try out new ones. But you know, these these people are in But you know, these these people are in But you know, these these people are in your church. They are often in your your church. They are often in your your church. They are often in your church. I I look at me, I got called out church. I I look at me, I got called out church. I I look at me, I got called out of ministry back in 2002. Will you leave of ministry back in 2002. Will you leave of ministry back in 2002. Will you leave your I'm sorry, called out of corporate. your I'm sorry, called out of corporate. your I'm sorry, called out of corporate. Will you leave your corporate job and Will you leave your corporate job and Will you leave your corporate job and come oversee this? And uh I wasn't an come oversee this? And uh I wasn't an come oversee this? And uh I wasn't an expert in any of the areas I was expert in any of the areas I was expert in any of the areas I was leading, but I knew how to lead the leading, but I knew how to lead the leading, but I knew how to lead the people who were. So those are the type people who were. So those are the type people who were. So those are the type of leaders that are huge load liters of leaders that are huge load liters of leaders that are huge load liters because some of the specialty positions, because some of the specialty positions, because some of the specialty positions, they take a little bit more time. You they take a little bit more time. You they take a little bit more time. You know, when I hire a worship leader, I'm know, when I hire a worship leader, I'm know, when I hire a worship leader, I'm not looking per se for a leader within not looking per se for a leader within not looking per se for a leader within my church. I'm saying submit a video so my church. I'm saying submit a video so my church. I'm saying submit a video so I can see that you have the competence I can see that you have the competence I can see that you have the competence first. But Right. Yeah. So a little bit first. But Right. Yeah. So a little bit first. But Right. Yeah. So a little bit depends on who you're hiring. What you depends on who you're hiring. What you depends on who you're hiring. What you said is very true. When I always look said is very true. When I always look said is very true. When I always look for leaders, I'm like, "How do you tell for leaders, I'm like, "How do you tell for leaders, I'm like, "How do you tell a leader?" Well, they're already leading a leader?" Well, they're already leading a leader?" Well, they're already leading something. In other words, they're out something. In other words, they're out something. In other words, they're out there in the community. They're in their there in the community. They're in their there in the community. They're in their company. They're organizing the parents. company. They're organizing the parents. company. They're organizing the parents. They're active in the community. They're They're active in the community. They're They're active in the community. They're doing something and other people are doing something and other people are doing something and other people are following. And then you tap them on the following. And then you tap them on the following. And then you tap them on the shoulder and go, "Hey, would you want to shoulder and go, "Hey, would you want to shoulder and go, "Hey, would you want to give your life to a bigger mission?" And give your life to a bigger mission?" And give your life to a bigger mission?" And that's that's the thing you're looking that's that's the thing you're looking that's that's the thing you're looking for. And that was true when our church for. And that was true when our church for. And that was true when our church was 20 people and it's true when it's was 20 people and it's true when it's was 20 people and it's true when it's thousands. And let me add to that.

thousands. And let me add to that. thousands. And let me add to that. Here's what I see a lot. When I'm Here's what I see a lot. When I'm Here's what I see a lot. When I'm sitting around the table with a senior sitting around the table with a senior sitting around the table with a senior leadership team and they have a big gap leadership team and they have a big gap leadership team and they have a big gap on their team and leadership, I always on their team and leadership, I always on their team and leadership, I always challenge them. Who's in your church? challenge them. Who's in your church? challenge them. Who's in your church? And it's funny, they they say no for And it's funny, they they say no for And it's funny, they they say no for people. They Well, he's the VP of fill people. They Well, he's the VP of fill people. They Well, he's the VP of fill in the blank. He's probably making eight in the blank. He's probably making eight in the blank. He's probably making eight time. He would never. And I'm like, try time. He would never. And I'm like, try time. He would never. And I'm like, try I have the conversation. God could I have the conversation. God could I have the conversation. God could already be at work. And you know, I just already be at work. And you know, I just already be at work. And you know, I just got an email this week, an update from a got an email this week, an update from a got an email this week, an update from a church. This guy left the company, took church. This guy left the company, took church. This guy left the company, took a Let me see. He makes a tenth less than a Let me see. He makes a tenth less than a Let me see. He makes a tenth less than what he made in his corporate job. what he made in his corporate job. what he made in his corporate job. I know. Isn't that crazy? Um, but he's I know. Isn't that crazy? Um, but he's I know. Isn't that crazy? Um, but he's moving into that significance phase and moving into that significance phase and moving into that significance phase and he's excited about with what God's doing he's excited about with what God's doing he's excited about with what God's doing in the church. And God's always at work in the church. And God's always at work in the church. And God's always at work before we make the ask. So don't say no before we make the ask. So don't say no before we make the ask. So don't say no for people. Make the ask. Yeah. All they for people. Make the ask. Yeah. All they for people. Make the ask. Yeah. All they can say is no. One of my favorite hires can say is no. One of my favorite hires can say is no. One of my favorite hires was someone who was working for Pepsi. was someone who was working for Pepsi. was someone who was working for Pepsi. She was young in her 30s and I'm like, She was young in her 30s and I'm like, She was young in her 30s and I'm like, "Well, you want to addict people to "Well, you want to addict people to "Well, you want to addict people to sugar water or change people's lives?" sugar water or change people's lives?" sugar water or change people's lives?" And she was great. She was fantastic.

And she was great. She was fantastic. And she was great. She was fantastic. Took a big pay cut. Uh Amy, this is Took a big pay cut. Uh Amy, this is Took a big pay cut. Uh Amy, this is great. So, um thank you so much and great. So, um thank you so much and great. So, um thank you so much and thank you that uh by God's grace you thank you that uh by God's grace you thank you that uh by God's grace you were able to continue the ministry of were able to continue the ministry of were able to continue the ministry of the Unstuck Group. Uh if people want to the Unstuck Group. Uh if people want to the Unstuck Group. Uh if people want to connect with the Unstuck Group online, connect with the Unstuck Group online, connect with the Unstuck Group online, follow your podcast, what's an easy follow your podcast, what's an easy follow your podcast, what's an easy place for them to do that? Yeah, a place for them to do that? Yeah, a place for them to do that? Yeah, a couple things really quick. I said couple things really quick. I said couple things really quick. I said earlier, Carrie, like as a church earlier, Carrie, like as a church earlier, Carrie, like as a church leader, if you don't know your data, you leader, if you don't know your data, you leader, if you don't know your data, you need to. And so for your listeners, need to. And so for your listeners, need to. And so for your listeners, Carrie, we wanted to offer a free month Carrie, we wanted to offer a free month Carrie, we wanted to offer a free month of access to our unstuck learning hub so of access to our unstuck learning hub so of access to our unstuck learning hub so they can go in and take the vital signs they can go in and take the vital signs they can go in and take the vital signs assessment that we were talking about. assessment that we were talking about. assessment that we were talking about. It shows churches, we talked about a It shows churches, we talked about a It shows churches, we talked about a couple metrics, but it shows how couple metrics, but it shows how couple metrics, but it shows how churches are doing in 15 areas and how churches are doing in 15 areas and how churches are doing in 15 areas and how they compare to the benchmarks of they compare to the benchmarks of they compare to the benchmarks of healthy churches. So, I said it, your healthy churches. So, I said it, your healthy churches. So, I said it, your dad is telling you a story, so your dad is telling you a story, so your dad is telling you a story, so your listeners can get a free month of listeners can get a free month of listeners can get a free month of access. Um, so if you go to our website, access. Um, so if you go to our website, access. Um, so if you go to our website, which is just the which is just the which is just the unstockgroup.com, you'll find our unstockgroup.com, you'll find our unstockgroup.com, you'll find our learning hub there and just use the learning hub there and just use the learning hub there and just use the coupon code carry c a r y and you'll get coupon code carry c a r y and you'll get coupon code carry c a r y and you'll get in there for a month. And by the way, in there for a month. And by the way, in there for a month. And by the way, not just the vital signs assessment, but not just the vital signs assessment, but not just the vital signs assessment, but there's unstuck teams, the unstuck there's unstuck teams, the unstuck there's unstuck teams, the unstuck church assessment, lots of resources in church assessment, lots of resources in church assessment, lots of resources in there for you. So 30 days where you can there for you. So 30 days where you can there for you. So 30 days where you can just go around in there and then yes the just go around in there and then yes the just go around in there and then yes the podcast you know we drop a new episode podcast you know we drop a new episode podcast you know we drop a new episode every Wednesday of the Unstuck Church every Wednesday of the Unstuck Church every Wednesday of the Unstuck Church podcast and it is the number one podcast and it is the number one podcast and it is the number one resource pastors quote back to us all resource pastors quote back to us all resource pastors quote back to us all the time um and telling us they find it the time um and telling us they find it the time um and telling us they find it valuable. So sorry you had to listen to valuable. So sorry you had to listen to valuable. So sorry you had to listen to my grally voice this whole time. Yeah.

my grally voice this whole time. Yeah. my grally voice this whole time. Yeah. Well, you know, we've had some uh Well, you know, we've had some uh Well, you know, we've had some uh internet issues here with a big storm internet issues here with a big storm internet issues here with a big storm that went through and you're not feeling that went through and you're not feeling that went through and you're not feeling 100%, but this was a great conversation 100%, but this was a great conversation 100%, but this was a great conversation and I want to thank you so much for it, and I want to thank you so much for it, and I want to thank you so much for it, Amy. Thanks for having me, Carrie. It's Amy. Thanks for having me, Carrie. It's Amy. Thanks for having me, Carrie. It's an honor and thanks for doing the good an honor and thanks for doing the good an honor and thanks for doing the good work, the good work that you do.