The Brutal Reality of Pastoring with John Ortberg

because you and I had talked through because you and I had talked through that period about, you know, what were that period about, you know, what were that period about, you know, what were you going to do next? And you had lots you going to do next? And you had lots you going to do next? And you had lots of options in front of you and you did of options in front of you and you did of options in front of you and you did take a good break. Yeah. Yeah. You were part of that journey. Yeah. You were part of that journey. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us. Well, we have a special kind joined us. Well, we have a special kind joined us. Well, we have a special kind of episode. John Orpberg and I sat of episode. John Orpberg and I sat of episode. John Orpberg and I sat down together on location in Soma down together on location in Soma down together on location in Soma County, Northern California. had a County, Northern California. had a County, Northern California. had a really fascinating conversation about really fascinating conversation about really fascinating conversation about leadership pain, the introvert's leadership pain, the introvert's leadership pain, the introvert's dilemma. John was an introvert led in dilemma. John was an introvert led in dilemma. John was an introvert led in church for decades. Uh how do you deal church for decades. Uh how do you deal church for decades. Uh how do you deal with that and dealing with a job you with that and dealing with a job you with that and dealing with a job you didn't sign up for? Uh I had a great didn't sign up for? Uh I had a great didn't sign up for? Uh I had a great week with John Orberg. We did an event week with John Orberg. We did an event week with John Orberg. We did an event together. Actually, he was [music] just together. Actually, he was [music] just together. Actually, he was [music] just participating in the event. Then we participating in the event. Then we participating in the event. Then we spent a couple of days just having meals spent a couple of days just having meals spent a couple of days just having meals together, him and Nancy and my wife Tony together, him and Nancy and my wife Tony together, him and Nancy and my wife Tony and I. uh doing some hikes and [music] and I. uh doing some hikes and [music] and I. uh doing some hikes and [music] just really spending time off the grid just really spending time off the grid just really spending time off the grid together. Man, it is rich. And I just together. Man, it is rich. And I just together. Man, it is rich. And I just want to say before we get into the want to say before we get into the want to say before we get into the conversation, one of the real values of conversation, one of the real values of conversation, one of the real values of starting young, and I know we have a lot starting young, and I know we have a lot starting young, and I know we have a lot of young leaders, is you get to John's of young leaders, is you get to John's of young leaders, is you get to John's age, which he's in his late 60s where age, which he's in his late 60s where age, which he's in his late 60s where you have read an entire lifetime worth you have read an entire lifetime worth you have read an entire lifetime worth of books and material. Uh it compounds of books and material. Uh it compounds of books and material. Uh it compounds just like money in the bank compounds just like money in the bank compounds just like money in the bank compounds with compound interest. Um knowledge with compound interest. Um knowledge with compound interest. Um knowledge compounds. And I knew I've known John compounds. And I knew I've known John compounds. And I knew I've known John like I've read his books for 20 25 like I've read his books for 20 25 like I've read his books for 20 25 years. I've known him for 15 years. But years. I've known him for 15 years. But years. I've known him for 15 years. But this was quite a bit of time we spent this was quite a bit of time we spent this was quite a bit of time we spent together. And as we spent two days with

together. And as we spent two days with together. And as we spent two days with long breakfast, long dinners, long long breakfast, long dinners, long long breakfast, long dinners, long hikes. I was just amazed. We didn't ever hikes. I was just amazed. We didn't ever hikes. I was just amazed. We didn't ever repeat a subject. He was so fascinating repeat a subject. He was so fascinating repeat a subject. He was so fascinating in terms of the depth and breadth of his in terms of the depth and breadth of his in terms of the depth and breadth of his knowledge. And I thought, you know what? knowledge. And I thought, you know what? knowledge. And I thought, you know what? I got to read more. Except I'm not 25. I got to read more. Except I'm not 25. I got to read more. Except I'm not 25. But if you start that young, great But if you start that young, great But if you start that young, great things happen. And speaking of young things happen. And speaking of young things happen. And speaking of young leaders, if this is your first time leaders, if this is your first time leaders, if this is your first time finding this podcast uh because the finding this podcast uh because the finding this podcast uh because the algorithm suggested it, here's what I'd algorithm suggested it, here's what I'd algorithm suggested it, here's what I'd love for you to do. Hit follow, hit love for you to do. Hit follow, hit love for you to do. Hit follow, hit subscribe. We got people like John Mark subscribe. We got people like John Mark subscribe. We got people like John Mark Comr coming up, Father Ronald Comr coming up, Father Ronald Comr coming up, Father Ronald Rollheiser, and a lot more. Will Gera, Rollheiser, and a lot more. Will Gera, Rollheiser, and a lot more. Will Gera, we try to bring you the best of the we try to bring you the best of the we try to bring you the best of the best. And when you follow, subscribe. best. And when you follow, subscribe. best. And when you follow, subscribe. Number one, you never miss anything. Number one, you never miss anything. Number one, you never miss anything. Number two, you get to share it with Number two, you get to share it with Number two, you get to share it with your friends. And number three, uh this your friends. And number three, uh this your friends. And number three, uh this show grows and we get to bring you even show grows and we get to bring you even show grows and we get to bring you even better guests all the time. So with all better guests all the time. So with all better guests all the time. So with all that said, John Orberg leads the that said, John Orberg leads the that said, John Orberg leads the ministry become new, focused on helping ministry become new, focused on helping ministry become new, focused on helping people grow spiritually one day at a people grow spiritually one day at a people grow spiritually one day at a time through daily teaching and time through daily teaching and time through daily teaching and community. He has his undergraduate community. He has his undergraduate community. He has his undergraduate degree from Wheaten College, his MD and degree from Wheaten College, his MD and degree from Wheaten College, his MD and PhD in clinical psychology from Fuller. PhD in clinical psychology from Fuller. PhD in clinical psychology from Fuller. He served as teaching pastor at Willow He served as teaching pastor at Willow He served as teaching pastor at Willow Creek in South Bington, Illinois until Creek in South Bington, Illinois until Creek in South Bington, Illinois until 2003 when he became the senior pastor at 2003 when he became the senior pastor at 2003 when he became the senior pastor at Menllo Park Presbyterian Church. She Menllo Park Presbyterian Church. She Menllo Park Presbyterian Church. She also has a brand new podcast called also has a brand new podcast called also has a brand new podcast called Formation, which I had the privilege of Formation, which I had the privilege of Formation, which I had the privilege of being on. We did a flip the mic. You got being on. We did a flip the mic. You got being on. We did a flip the mic. You got to check that out. It's long form to check that out. It's long form to check that out. It's long form conversations. Said to John probably a conversations. Said to John probably a conversations. Said to John probably a hundred times, I'm so glad you're doing hundred times, I'm so glad you're doing hundred times, I'm so glad you're doing this. I'm so glad you're doing this.

this. I'm so glad you're doing this. this. I'm so glad you're doing this. We'll link to all that in the show We'll link to all that in the show We'll link to all that in the show notes, by the way, which you can get at notes, by the way, which you can get at notes, by the way, which you can get at kyneuhoff.com/showes kyneuhoff.com/showes kyneuhoff.com/showes or go to the art of or go to the art of or go to the art of leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. Sign up today for free. You'll get Sign up today for free. You'll get Sign up today for free. You'll get everything there. And now to a really everything there. And now to a really everything there. And now to a really riveting conversation with the one and riveting conversation with the one and riveting conversation with the one and only John Orberg. John, it's just good only John Orberg. John, it's just good only John Orberg. John, it's just good to spend some time with you. And to spend some time with you. And to spend some time with you. And >> you say that to everybody, Carrie. >> you say that to everybody, Carrie. >> you say that to everybody, Carrie. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Have you ever done a show where you say, >> Have you ever done a show where you say, >> Have you ever done a show where you say, "I'm not excited about this at all, but "I'm not excited about this at all, but "I'm not excited about this at all, but we got to have this guy on here, so we got to have this guy on here, so we got to have this guy on here, so there you go." there you go." there you go." >> Well, I hope it's, >> Well, I hope it's, >> Well, I hope it's, >> you know, I don't think I've put myself >> you know, I don't think I've put myself >> you know, I don't think I've put myself in that position. in that position. in that position. >> I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. And >> I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. And >> I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. And of course, you don't listen to mine, of course, you don't listen to mine, of course, you don't listen to mine, >> but every time No, no, no. I do. You're >> but every time No, no, no. I do. You're >> but every time No, no, no. I do. You're You're [laughter] one of the few where I You're [laughter] one of the few where I You're [laughter] one of the few where I will listen to them, but I don't listen will listen to them, but I don't listen will listen to them, but I don't listen to them all. But every time the podcast to them all. But every time the podcast to them all. But every time the podcast host always says, "I'm so excited to host always says, "I'm so excited to host always says, "I'm so excited to talk to this person today." I find talk to this person today." I find talk to this person today." I find myself saying it, but like nobody ever myself saying it, but like nobody ever myself saying it, but like nobody ever says that they're not. says that they're not. says that they're not. >> Yeah. But you just started a podcast and >> Yeah. But you just started a podcast and >> Yeah. But you just started a podcast and you get to pick who is on it. You just you get to pick who is on it. You just you get to pick who is on it. You just had me. had me. had me. >> I knew it. I just had you on it. Yeah. >> I knew it. I just had you on it. Yeah. >> I knew it. I just had you on it. Yeah. >> So, were you excited to have >> So, were you excited to have >> So, were you excited to have >> That's true. I was genuinely excited to >> That's true. I was genuinely excited to >> That's true. I was genuinely excited to have you. Yeah. have you. Yeah. have you. Yeah. >> And you probably thought in your head >> And you probably thought in your head >> And you probably thought in your head everybody who hosts a podcast. Same with everybody who hosts a podcast. Same with everybody who hosts a podcast. Same with guest preachers. guest preachers. guest preachers. >> It's like, no, probably not going to be >> It's like, no, probably not going to be >> It's like, no, probably not going to be the right fit.

the right fit. the right fit. >> Right. So, you have that. So, I think I >> Right. So, you have that. So, I think I >> Right. So, you have that. So, I think I can genuinely say that. But I have been can genuinely say that. But I have been can genuinely say that. But I have been I've eagerly been excited about this I've eagerly been excited about this I've eagerly been excited about this conversation and we're spending a few conversation and we're spending a few conversation and we're spending a few days together building into some pastors days together building into some pastors days together building into some pastors in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley. in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley. in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley. >> You're building into them. I'm just >> You're building into them. I'm just >> You're building into them. I'm just watching. watching. watching. >> Yeah, I'm cheering you on. >> Yeah, I'm cheering you on. >> Yeah, I'm cheering you on. >> I got here last night. I flew in. >> I got here last night. I flew in. >> I got here last night. I flew in. >> Tony and I walk into the room and I just >> Tony and I walk into the room and I just >> Tony and I walk into the room and I just happen to find a table with an empty happen to find a table with an empty happen to find a table with an empty seat seat seat >> and I'm like, "Oh, there's Nancy." And >> and I'm like, "Oh, there's Nancy." And >> and I'm like, "Oh, there's Nancy." And then you had your back you your back then you had your back you your back then you had your back you your back turned toward me because you were turned toward me because you were turned toward me because you were watching the front. I'm like, "Ah, watching the front. I'm like, "Ah, watching the front. I'm like, "Ah, that's John." But what you were doing, that's John." But what you were doing, that's John." But what you were doing, you were taking notes and that really you were taking notes and that really you were taking notes and that really made me stop and pay attention. made me stop and pay attention. made me stop and pay attention. Um, you're still taking notes, John. I Um, you're still taking notes, John. I Um, you're still taking notes, John. I love it. You know, I love to learn. I love it. You know, I love to learn. I love it. You know, I love to learn. I just, um, since I was a kid, I like just, um, since I was a kid, I like just, um, since I was a kid, I like going to school. I like when it's fall. going to school. I like when it's fall. going to school. I like when it's fall. I like when September rolls around. I I like when September rolls around. I I like when September rolls around. I like to go to class. Um there is like to go to class. Um there is like to go to class. Um there is something about learning and feeling I something about learning and feeling I something about learning and feeling I didn't know this before or just ideas. didn't know this before or just ideas. didn't know this before or just ideas. Um that is very energizing lifegiving.

Um that is very energizing lifegiving. Um that is very energizing lifegiving. Um so yeah I I I do love that there I I Um so yeah I I I do love that there I I Um so yeah I I I do love that there I I wish I had the same natural aptitude in wish I had the same natural aptitude in wish I had the same natural aptitude in other areas of life. I'll watch I'm more other areas of life. I'll watch I'm more other areas of life. I'll watch I'm more of an introvert. of an introvert. of an introvert. >> Yeah. I'll watch my wife when she's with >> Yeah. I'll watch my wife when she's with >> Yeah. I'll watch my wife when she's with people and uh she'll plunge into a people and uh she'll plunge into a people and uh she'll plunge into a conversation and when she describes it conversation and when she describes it conversation and when she describes it she'll say it's like watching a movie she'll say it's like watching a movie she'll say it's like watching a movie and so she'll know the next question to and so she'll know the next question to and so she'll know the next question to ask. She'll be able to read the person's ask. She'll be able to read the person's ask. She'll be able to read the person's body language and for me being more of body language and for me being more of body language and for me being more of an introvert conversation is just harder an introvert conversation is just harder an introvert conversation is just harder work for me. work for me. work for me. >> It is. >> It is. >> It is. >> Under what conditions is it energizing >> Under what conditions is it energizing >> Under what conditions is it energizing or under no conditions is it energizing or under no conditions is it energizing or under no conditions is it energizing John? [laughter] John? [laughter] John? [laughter] >> No. Um, under these conditions, I like >> No. Um, under these conditions, I like >> No. Um, under these conditions, I like it a lot when we're going to talk about it a lot when we're going to talk about it a lot when we're going to talk about something and there's the chance to something and there's the chance to something and there's the chance to learn and we're going to have a learn and we're going to have a learn and we're going to have a conversation where we look at stuff. conversation where we look at stuff. conversation where we look at stuff. Probably having a certain structure to Probably having a certain structure to Probably having a certain structure to it it it >> uh uh makes it feel more accessible to >> uh uh makes it feel more accessible to >> uh uh makes it feel more accessible to me when it's somebody where I know them me when it's somebody where I know them me when it's somebody where I know them well and the well and the well and the >> it's a horrible word for it. I don't >> it's a horrible word for it. I don't >> it's a horrible word for it. I don't like it, but chemistry like the um kind like it, but chemistry like the um kind like it, but chemistry like the um kind of mental connection and it'll be fun of mental connection and it'll be fun of mental connection and it'll be fun and it can go deep and there can be and it can go deep and there can be and it can go deep and there can be emotion to it. um that I like a lot if emotion to it. um that I like a lot if emotion to it. um that I like a lot if it's at a gathering like this where it's it's at a gathering like this where it's it's at a gathering like this where it's fellowship time um and we're just fellowship time um and we're just fellowship time um and we're just meeting outside. So, how are you doing?

meeting outside. So, how are you doing? meeting outside. So, how are you doing? Tell me about that's where I will watch Tell me about that's where I will watch Tell me about that's where I will watch people who are really skilled at this. people who are really skilled at this. people who are really skilled at this. My wife just happens to be one of them. My wife just happens to be one of them. My wife just happens to be one of them. And I wish I had that. I I was just And I wish I had that. I I was just And I wish I had that. I I was just asked her the other day like uh how do asked her the other day like uh how do asked her the other day like uh how do you hone the ability to be genuinely you hone the ability to be genuinely you hone the ability to be genuinely interested? interested? interested? You know, nobody wants to talk to You know, nobody wants to talk to You know, nobody wants to talk to somebody that is not interested in them, somebody that is not interested in them, somebody that is not interested in them, but you can't make yourself interested. but you can't make yourself interested. but you can't make yourself interested. And with me, the barrier is more it's And with me, the barrier is more it's And with me, the barrier is more it's not that I don't think that this person not that I don't think that this person not that I don't think that this person is interesting. I'm not necessarily able is interesting. I'm not necessarily able is interesting. I'm not necessarily able to generate the to generate the to generate the lens or tools lens or tools lens or tools to uh pursue a conversation that is to uh pursue a conversation that is to uh pursue a conversation that is going to lead to something in the same going to lead to something in the same going to lead to something in the same way that Nancy does. So, um I genuinely way that Nancy does. So, um I genuinely way that Nancy does. So, um I genuinely love to learn love to learn love to learn >> and I love to read. I love to listen. I >> and I love to read. I love to listen. I >> and I love to read. I love to listen. I like to take notes. I like to learn in like to take notes. I like to learn in like to take notes. I like to learn in conversation a lot. I think there's conversation a lot. I think there's conversation a lot. I think there's people I I guess what I'd want to say is people I I guess what I'd want to say is people I I guess what I'd want to say is there's people who listen to us that there's people who listen to us that there's people who listen to us that might not relate to that, might not relate to that, might not relate to that, >> but they may be geniuses at reading >> but they may be geniuses at reading >> but they may be geniuses at reading people, discovering people, talking with people, discovering people, talking with people, discovering people, talking with people, entering into people's stories, people, entering into people's stories, people, entering into people's stories, and I admire that gift a lot.

and I admire that gift a lot. and I admire that gift a lot. >> You know, I'm glad we ended up starting >> You know, I'm glad we ended up starting >> You know, I'm glad we ended up starting here. I don't know the actual stats on here. I don't know the actual stats on here. I don't know the actual stats on this, but it's at least 50/50 pastors this, but it's at least 50/50 pastors this, but it's at least 50/50 pastors who are introverts or extroverts. And I who are introverts or extroverts. And I who are introverts or extroverts. And I think it tilts toward introvert. I think it tilts toward introvert. I think it tilts toward introvert. I started as an extrovert and I think started as an extrovert and I think started as an extrovert and I think ministry beat the extrovert out of me ministry beat the extrovert out of me ministry beat the extrovert out of me when you were a pastor because you when you were a pastor because you when you were a pastor because you pastored a church for decades. Yes. pastored a church for decades. Yes. pastored a church for decades. Yes. Different churches. Different churches. Different churches. >> How did you handle the small talk? >> How did you handle the small talk? >> How did you handle the small talk? >> Because that's my nemesis. If you put me >> Because that's my nemesis. If you put me >> Because that's my nemesis. If you put me at a cocktail party, small talk, at a cocktail party, small talk, at a cocktail party, small talk, >> I'm like, I will go find the person I >> I'm like, I will go find the person I >> I'm like, I will go find the person I know best know best know best >> and go off into a corner with them >> and go off into a corner with them >> and go off into a corner with them >> and have a real conversation then talk >> and have a real conversation then talk >> and have a real conversation then talk to somebody whose name I'm going to to somebody whose name I'm going to to somebody whose name I'm going to forget in 18 seconds and probably never forget in 18 seconds and probably never forget in 18 seconds and probably never talk to again and that's terrible when talk to again and that's terrible when talk to again and that's terrible when that's your church. So, how did you deal that's your church. So, how did you deal that's your church. So, how did you deal with that? Or can you relate to that? with that? Or can you relate to that? with that? Or can you relate to that? >> Or totally. Yesterday when we were at >> Or totally. Yesterday when we were at >> Or totally. Yesterday when we were at dinner, there was someone sitting next dinner, there was someone sitting next dinner, there was someone sitting next to you that kind of locked in and so to you that kind of locked in and so to you that kind of locked in and so that conversation. So then the other that conversation. So then the other that conversation. So then the other four of us had to keep a conversation four of us had to keep a conversation four of us had to keep a conversation going. And I'll find if I'm at a table.

going. And I'll find if I'm at a table. going. And I'll find if I'm at a table. I'm much more comfortable if everybody I'm much more comfortable if everybody I'm much more comfortable if everybody at the table is in one conversation. at the table is in one conversation. at the table is in one conversation. Once it's the neighbor nudge where you Once it's the neighbor nudge where you Once it's the neighbor nudge where you turn to your neighbor and you got to turn to your neighbor and you got to turn to your neighbor and you got to keep it going, it's like it's going to keep it going, it's like it's going to keep it going, it's like it's going to be harder work. be harder work. be harder work. >> Oh yeah, that's weddings and you know >> Oh yeah, that's weddings and you know >> Oh yeah, that's weddings and you know funerals and that kind of thing. By the funerals and that kind of thing. By the funerals and that kind of thing. By the way, that person was your wife Nancy. way, that person was your wife Nancy. way, that person was your wife Nancy. Thank you for mentioning that. Yeah. No, Thank you for mentioning that. Yeah. No, Thank you for mentioning that. Yeah. No, I'm sure you did. I'm sure you did. I'm sure you did. >> I missed I missed the rest of the >> I missed I missed the rest of the >> I missed I missed the rest of the yada yada yada [laughter] yada. Uh uh no yada yada yada [laughter] yada. Uh uh no yada yada yada [laughter] yada. Uh uh no th those times uh receptions and so uh th those times uh receptions and so uh th those times uh receptions and so uh were always harder times for me. Um uh were always harder times for me. Um uh were always harder times for me. Um uh and and I wish they weren't. And again, and and I wish they weren't. And again, and and I wish they weren't. And again, it's not because I think people are it's not because I think people are it's not because I think people are amazing. amazing. amazing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And there are times when I'm able to >> And there are times when I'm able to >> And there are times when I'm able to enter into conversations in ways that enter into conversations in ways that enter into conversations in ways that are really good in that way. And again are really good in that way. And again are really good in that way. And again with good friends, I think with folks with good friends, I think with folks with good friends, I think with folks where I feel more um confidence or where I feel more um confidence or where I feel more um confidence or assurance that we'll have something to assurance that we'll have something to assurance that we'll have something to talk about that will be really talk about that will be really talk about that will be really interesting. It really is my much more interesting. It really is my much more interesting. It really is my much more my own anxiety I think that will get in my own anxiety I think that will get in my own anxiety I think that will get in the way of it.

the way of it. the way of it. >> And uh people may not always be aware of >> And uh people may not always be aware of >> And uh people may not always be aware of that but I think I will feel that that but I think I will feel that that but I think I will feel that inside. Um and so uh I have worked hard inside. Um and so uh I have worked hard inside. Um and so uh I have worked hard um to try to um cultivate that more and um to try to um cultivate that more and um to try to um cultivate that more and to to think about asking questions that to to think about asking questions that to to think about asking questions that are not yes or no questions and watching are not yes or no questions and watching are not yes or no questions and watching your face to see when your eyes light up your face to see when your eyes light up your face to see when your eyes light up a little bit when your shoulders kind of a little bit when your shoulders kind of a little bit when your shoulders kind of slumping to try to discern. So like it's slumping to try to discern. So like it's slumping to try to discern. So like it's kind of like trying to learn a language. kind of like trying to learn a language. kind of like trying to learn a language. So I will work at that and I did seek to So I will work at that and I did seek to So I will work at that and I did seek to work on it when I was at a church when I work on it when I was at a church when I work on it when I was at a church when I was first starting when I was uh a young was first starting when I was uh a young was first starting when I was uh a young adult in ministry. Uh I had very low adult in ministry. Uh I had very low adult in ministry. Uh I had very low self-awareness and I thought I was an self-awareness and I thought I was an self-awareness and I thought I was an extrovert. extrovert. extrovert. >> Oh really? >> Oh really? >> Oh really? >> But I grew up in a family where >> But I grew up in a family where >> But I grew up in a family where extrovert was good, introvert was bad. extrovert was good, introvert was bad. extrovert was good, introvert was bad. Introverts are kind of dull and Swedish, Introverts are kind of dull and Swedish, Introverts are kind of dull and Swedish, which I'm half Swedish and uh, you know, which I'm half Swedish and uh, you know, which I'm half Swedish and uh, you know, social losers and extroverts have social losers and extroverts have social losers and extroverts have charisma and they're exciting and charisma and they're exciting and charisma and they're exciting and they're leaders and I had the I had a they're leaders and I had the I had a they're leaders and I had the I had a need to be that kind of person. And so need to be that kind of person. And so need to be that kind of person. And so my own kind of need and immaturity I my own kind of need and immaturity I my own kind of need and immaturity I think for a long long time kept seeing think for a long long time kept seeing think for a long long time kept seeing me kept me from seeing that reality. And me kept me from seeing that reality. And me kept me from seeing that reality. And the other side of it is the other side of it is the other side of it is I think I I do like to learn. I like to I think I I do like to learn. I like to I think I I do like to learn. I like to read. I like to reflect and that does read. I like to reflect and that does read. I like to reflect and that does enable me to do certain things that if I enable me to do certain things that if I enable me to do certain things that if I weren't wired the way that I am I would weren't wired the way that I am I would weren't wired the way that I am I would not be able to do and some of those

not be able to do and some of those not be able to do and some of those things to teach communicate right can be things to teach communicate right can be things to teach communicate right can be helpful to people. helpful to people. helpful to people. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But but but I think that issue also of >> But but but I think that issue also of >> But but but I think that issue also of how do I navigate on the one hand how do I navigate on the one hand how do I navigate on the one hand embracing this is my wiring. These are embracing this is my wiring. These are embracing this is my wiring. These are my limitations. God loves me. So I I my limitations. God loves me. So I I my limitations. God loves me. So I I need to accept that's who I am. And then need to accept that's who I am. And then need to accept that's who I am. And then where do I need to say no you can grow I where do I need to say no you can grow I where do I need to say no you can grow I can get better. I can love people more can get better. I can love people more can get better. I can love people more effectively. I you know there's always effectively. I you know there's always effectively. I you know there's always kind of a tension there to figure out kind of a tension there to figure out kind of a tension there to figure out where do I accept myself and where do I where do I accept myself and where do I where do I accept myself and where do I push myself to grow. push myself to grow. push myself to grow. >> Well you have an impressive network of >> Well you have an impressive network of >> Well you have an impressive network of people. We were chatting casually at people. We were chatting casually at people. We were chatting casually at lunch today and somebody was asking me a lunch today and somebody was asking me a lunch today and somebody was asking me a question about how do I determine who's question about how do I determine who's question about how do I determine who's a guest on my podcast and I said well a guest on my podcast and I said well a guest on my podcast and I said well some of that's interest. I mentioned a some of that's interest. I mentioned a some of that's interest. I mentioned a name that meant nothing to me. A guy who name that meant nothing to me. A guy who name that meant nothing to me. A guy who started the app store on Apple. We got a started the app store on Apple. We got a started the app store on Apple. We got a pitch. I'm like, "Yeah." And you're pitch. I'm like, "Yeah." And you're pitch. I'm like, "Yeah." And you're like, "Oh, like Ron, I know Ron and you like, "Oh, like Ron, I know Ron and you like, "Oh, like Ron, I know Ron and you like you have this network." And I'm like you have this network." And I'm like you have this network." And I'm asking this question because hopefully asking this question because hopefully asking this question because hopefully people can relate to it. I My fear right people can relate to it. I My fear right people can relate to it. I My fear right now, I was back in California two weeks now, I was back in California two weeks now, I was back in California two weeks ago and here I am again. And we're going ago and here I am again. And we're going ago and here I am again. And we're going to a party on a Thursday night. I've to a party on a Thursday night. I've to a party on a Thursday night. I've taught all day. I'm tired. Anybody who taught all day. I'm tired. Anybody who taught all day. I'm tired. Anybody who watches this podcast can probably watches this podcast can probably watches this podcast can probably relate. whatever situation you're in and relate. whatever situation you're in and relate. whatever situation you're in and you've just done a whole day of you've just done a whole day of you've just done a whole day of ministry, a whole day of quote work, and ministry, a whole day of quote work, and ministry, a whole day of quote work, and you're kind of tired and uh a guy that you're kind of tired and uh a guy that you're kind of tired and uh a guy that was sort of my host. He says, "Oh, I've was sort of my host. He says, "Oh, I've was sort of my host. He says, "Oh, I've got these people you need to meet."

got these people you need to meet." got these people you need to meet." [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> No, no, no. I don't actually have that >> No, no, no. I don't actually have that >> No, no, no. I don't actually have that need. need. need. >> I'm the world's knee expert on my own >> I'm the world's knee expert on my own >> I'm the world's knee expert on my own needs, [laughter] and that's actually needs, [laughter] and that's actually needs, [laughter] and that's actually not a need. I have several needs right not a need. I have several needs right not a need. I have several needs right now. That's not even on the list. But now. That's not even on the list. But now. That's not even on the list. But thank you for playing. What I really thank you for playing. What I really thank you for playing. What I really wanted to do is I wanted to hang out wanted to do is I wanted to hang out wanted to do is I wanted to hang out with him with him with him >> or the guy I knew best that I drove over >> or the guy I knew best that I drove over >> or the guy I knew best that I drove over to the party with to the party with to the party with >> I'm like, "Okay, I don't have time for >> I'm like, "Okay, I don't have time for >> I'm like, "Okay, I don't have time for one more introduction." And we're 30 one more introduction." And we're 30 one more introduction." And we're 30 seconds into it and I'm like, "Oh my seconds into it and I'm like, "Oh my seconds into it and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, these are people I need to know." gosh, these are people I need to know." gosh, these are people I need to know." I'm like, I looked around the room and I'm like, I looked around the room and I'm like, I looked around the room and I'm like, "All right, you see that empty I'm like, "All right, you see that empty I'm like, "All right, you see that empty table over there? Why don't we go sit table over there? Why don't we go sit table over there? Why don't we go sit down? Why don't we talk?" We talked for down? Why don't we talk?" We talked for down? Why don't we talk?" We talked for 45 minutes. It could have been longer. 45 minutes. It could have been longer. 45 minutes. It could have been longer. It was great. My fear, John, is that I'm It was great. My fear, John, is that I'm It was great. My fear, John, is that I'm missing out on relationships I could missing out on relationships I could missing out on relationships I could have have have >> because I'm saying no often because of >> because I'm saying no often because of >> because I'm saying no often because of overwhelm. And I'm guessing you have a overwhelm. And I'm guessing you have a overwhelm. And I'm guessing you have a similar thing and yet you know some similar thing and yet you know some similar thing and yet you know some amazing people. amazing people. amazing people. >> How do you determine other than >> How do you determine other than >> How do you determine other than chemistry chemistry chemistry >> whether like do you have that same fear >> whether like do you have that same fear >> whether like do you have that same fear or how do you determine this is a or how do you determine this is a or how do you determine this is a relationship I need to go deeper with?

relationship I need to go deeper with? relationship I need to go deeper with? >> Yeah. Um it's changed over time. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um it's changed over time. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um it's changed over time. Yeah. >> I would say um the biggest shift has >> I would say um the biggest shift has >> I would say um the biggest shift has been in the last 10 years. been in the last 10 years. been in the last 10 years. >> Um >> Um >> Um uh uh uh you know initially when I was going to you know initially when I was going to you know initially when I was going to school I was actually I thought I was school I was actually I thought I was school I was actually I thought I was going to become a psychologist. So going to become a psychologist. So going to become a psychologist. So that's where my primary training was. that's where my primary training was. that's where my primary training was. But part of why I didn't go into therapy But part of why I didn't go into therapy But part of why I didn't go into therapy was precisely because I found when I was was precisely because I found when I was was precisely because I found when I was having sessions to work with people in having sessions to work with people in having sessions to work with people in therapy um I didn't feel particularly therapy um I didn't feel particularly therapy um I didn't feel particularly effective. It wasn't life-giving to me. effective. It wasn't life-giving to me. effective. It wasn't life-giving to me. I value therapy deeply. I need it I value therapy deeply. I need it I value therapy deeply. I need it myself. I'm very grateful for it. But myself. I'm very grateful for it. But myself. I'm very grateful for it. But but it felt draining to do. M but it felt draining to do. M but it felt draining to do. M >> one of the things I find now just having >> one of the things I find now just having >> one of the things I find now just having gone through difficult painful things in gone through difficult painful things in gone through difficult painful things in life especially in the last decade is uh life especially in the last decade is uh life especially in the last decade is uh it leaves me with a need to talk with it leaves me with a need to talk with it leaves me with a need to talk with other people in pain other people in pain other people in pain and uh uh to feel like we can have a and uh uh to feel like we can have a and uh uh to feel like we can have a conversation where I can meet them in conversation where I can meet them in conversation where I can meet them in that place and then there's something that place and then there's something that place and then there's something redemptive about it. there is some good redemptive about it. there is some good redemptive about it. there is some good that might be able to come out of that might be able to come out of that might be able to come out of my situation, our situation that could my situation, our situation that could my situation, our situation that could be helpful to somebody. So, there's be helpful to somebody. So, there's be helpful to somebody. So, there's something redemptive about that. And um something redemptive about that. And um something redemptive about that. And um and then along with that, I think and then along with that, I think and then along with that, I think because because because it will often be a conversation with it will often be a conversation with it will often be a conversation with folks where uh it's around issues could folks where uh it's around issues could folks where uh it's around issues could be ministry related or family related

be ministry related or family related be ministry related or family related where it will make me feel like, oh, I where it will make me feel like, oh, I where it will make me feel like, oh, I have something to say about that. I I have something to say about that. I I have something to say about that. I I I've had some experiences there which I've had some experiences there which I've had some experiences there which might be helpful. Um you know then again might be helpful. Um you know then again might be helpful. Um you know then again that makes it something where I think I that makes it something where I think I that makes it something where I think I have more uh of a sense of confidence have more uh of a sense of confidence have more uh of a sense of confidence that a conversation could be helpful. So that a conversation could be helpful. So that a conversation could be helpful. So that part of it has definitely changed. that part of it has definitely changed. that part of it has definitely changed. Um you know part of it is just don't Um you know part of it is just don't Um you know part of it is just don't die. Keep getting older and then you die. Keep getting older and then you die. Keep getting older and then you know people all over the place. And know people all over the place. And know people all over the place. And [laughter] so, you know, at this point [laughter] so, you know, at this point [laughter] so, you know, at this point in life, I'll find um I I need to work in life, I'll find um I I need to work in life, I'll find um I I need to work hard to say no to not get overcommitted, hard to say no to not get overcommitted, hard to say no to not get overcommitted, but almost any place if I'm going but almost any place if I'm going but almost any place if I'm going somewhere to do something, it'll somewhere to do something, it'll somewhere to do something, it'll probably be with some people that I know probably be with some people that I know probably be with some people that I know that at this point I'll think, "Oh, that that at this point I'll think, "Oh, that that at this point I'll think, "Oh, that will really be fun." will really be fun." will really be fun." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm going to Canada in a few months. >> So, I'm going to Canada in a few months. >> So, I'm going to Canada in a few months. >> I did not know that. I am too. >> I did not know that. I am too. >> I did not know that. I am too. >> My part or another part? >> My part or another part? >> My part or another part? >> Uh it's a place that you might or might >> Uh it's a place that you might or might >> Uh it's a place that you might or might not have heard of back in the day when I not have heard of back in the day when I not have heard of back in the day when I was a kid growing up. It was a very very was a kid growing up. It was a very very was a kid growing up. It was a very very conservative school called Prairie Bible conservative school called Prairie Bible conservative school called Prairie Bible Institute. Institute. Institute. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> And uh apparently it almost went under >> And uh apparently it almost went under >> And uh apparently it almost went under and has had kind of a renaissance and and has had kind of a renaissance and and has had kind of a renaissance and it's now Prairie College.

it's now Prairie College. it's now Prairie College. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And uh very good friends that you'll >> And uh very good friends that you'll >> And uh very good friends that you'll remember because you were part of a remember because you were part of a remember because you were part of a group with us, Cliff and Joyce Penner. group with us, Cliff and Joyce Penner. group with us, Cliff and Joyce Penner. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Who are Canadian Menanite by background >> Who are Canadian Menanite by background >> Who are Canadian Menanite by background uh and they have connections with this uh and they have connections with this uh and they have connections with this school and its leader now. So, we're school and its leader now. So, we're school and its leader now. So, we're going there with Cliff and Joyce going there with Cliff and Joyce going there with Cliff and Joyce >> and uh we'll be up in Canada in just a >> and uh we'll be up in Canada in just a >> and uh we'll be up in Canada in just a little while in little while in little while in >> Oh, you're gonna have a great time. >> Oh, you're gonna have a great time. >> Oh, you're gonna have a great time. >> Our 51st state >> Our 51st state >> Our 51st state >> and not taking the bait. This episode is >> and not taking the bait. This episode is >> and not taking the bait. This episode is brought to you by the art of preaching. brought to you by the art of preaching. brought to you by the art of preaching. So, preachers, if you've been writing So, preachers, if you've been writing So, preachers, if you've been writing sermons on Saturday night, you're sermons on Saturday night, you're sermons on Saturday night, you're fumbling for your notes at the pulpit on fumbling for your notes at the pulpit on fumbling for your notes at the pulpit on Sunday morning or all you do is replay Sunday morning or all you do is replay Sunday morning or all you do is replay mistakes in your head at 2 a.m. while mistakes in your head at 2 a.m. while mistakes in your head at 2 a.m. while you're trying to recover from what you you're trying to recover from what you you're trying to recover from what you did. I get it. I've been there. And the did. I get it. I've been there. And the did. I get it. I've been there. And the good news is that the art of preaching good news is that the art of preaching good news is that the art of preaching is here to help. It's a step-by-step is here to help. It's a step-by-step is here to help. It's a step-by-step course that has already helped over course that has already helped over course that has already helped over 3,500 preachers write and deliver 3,500 preachers write and deliver 3,500 preachers write and deliver messages that are engaging, relevant, messages that are engaging, relevant, messages that are engaging, relevant, and memorable. And after each lesson, and memorable. And after each lesson, and memorable. And after each lesson, there are materials to help you there are materials to help you there are materials to help you incorporate what you've learned into incorporate what you've learned into incorporate what you've learned into your next sermon so you can step on your next sermon so you can step on your next sermon so you can step on stage ready to deliver a message that stage ready to deliver a message that stage ready to deliver a message that lands. And it's not just me. You're lands. And it's not just me. You're lands. And it's not just me. You're going to hear from Mark Clark, Faith going to hear from Mark Clark, Faith going to hear from Mark Clark, Faith Yuri Cho, Megan Fate Marshman, Noah Yuri Cho, Megan Fate Marshman, Noah Yuri Cho, Megan Fate Marshman, Noah Herren, and Adam Mesa. until Wednesday, Herren, and Adam Mesa. until Wednesday, Herren, and Adam Mesa. until Wednesday, July 15th. There are two ways to join.

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there in summer, which is a very smart there in summer, which is a very smart move, move, move, >> not winter. Canada and winter. No. >> not winter. Canada and winter. No. >> not winter. Canada and winter. No. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What is a life-giving relationship for >> What is a life-giving relationship for >> What is a life-giving relationship for you now? you now? you now? >> When you think about the friendships you >> When you think about the friendships you >> When you think about the friendships you have, and you have some very rich have, and you have some very rich have, and you have some very rich friendships, friendships, friendships, that apparently is one of the great that apparently is one of the great that apparently is one of the great famines in the world. Uh loneliness is a famines in the world. Uh loneliness is a famines in the world. Uh loneliness is a crisis. A lot of young men have no crisis. A lot of young men have no crisis. A lot of young men have no friends. Yeah. friends. Yeah. friends. Yeah. >> Uh a lot of people in ministry, it's an >> Uh a lot of people in ministry, it's an >> Uh a lot of people in ministry, it's an occupational hazard. Known by everybody occupational hazard. Known by everybody occupational hazard. Known by everybody but known to few. but known to few. but known to few. >> People know who you are, but you don't >> People know who you are, but you don't >> People know who you are, but you don't really know anybody deeply. You're not really know anybody deeply. You're not really know anybody deeply. You're not seen. seen. seen. >> What is a life-giving relationship for >> What is a life-giving relationship for >> What is a life-giving relationship for you? you? you? >> Yeah. You know, and I think part of why >> Yeah. You know, and I think part of why >> Yeah. You know, and I think part of why I prized that so much is I came to it I prized that so much is I came to it I prized that so much is I came to it late. I was a sophomore in high school late. I was a sophomore in high school late. I was a sophomore in high school before I made my first really, really before I made my first really, really before I made my first really, really good friend. good friend. good friend. >> Really? And so, um, again, for lots of >> Really? And so, um, again, for lots of >> Really? And so, um, again, for lots of reasons, I think when I was, uh, reasons, I think when I was, uh, reasons, I think when I was, uh, younger, I was quite lonely, but I younger, I was quite lonely, but I younger, I was quite lonely, but I wasn't aware enough to even know that I wasn't aware enough to even know that I wasn't aware enough to even know that I was I couldn't admit that. Uh, in my was I couldn't admit that. Uh, in my was I couldn't admit that. Uh, in my family, I was lonely, too. family, I was lonely, too. family, I was lonely, too. >> Yeah. Really? >> Yeah. Really? >> Yeah. Really? >> Yeah. How did how did family of origin >> Yeah. How did how did family of origin >> Yeah. How did how did family of origin impact that?

impact that? impact that? >> Yeah. So I I was uh I had a need to see >> Yeah. So I I was uh I had a need to see >> Yeah. So I I was uh I had a need to see myself as this bright, successful, myself as this bright, successful, myself as this bright, successful, popular popular popular uh athletic leader. uh athletic leader. uh athletic leader. And um And um And um uh I don't know that anybody is all of uh I don't know that anybody is all of uh I don't know that anybody is all of those things uh really. Yeah. those things uh really. Yeah. those things uh really. Yeah. >> And feels it really. For sure I didn't >> And feels it really. For sure I didn't >> And feels it really. For sure I didn't uh and wasn't. But I think probably uh and wasn't. But I think probably uh and wasn't. But I think probably partly because of my need to try to partly because of my need to try to partly because of my need to try to project that image even more that would project that image even more that would project that image even more that would push folks away in ways that I didn't push folks away in ways that I didn't push folks away in ways that I didn't know. So um I think uh both being wired know. So um I think uh both being wired know. So um I think uh both being wired the way that I am more bookish by nature the way that I am more bookish by nature the way that I am more bookish by nature and then uh with this need to project and then uh with this need to project and then uh with this need to project somebody that I really wasn't that would somebody that I really wasn't that would somebody that I really wasn't that would create probably an artificiality and create probably an artificiality and create probably an artificiality and probably awkwardness. probably awkwardness. probably awkwardness. um uh fifth grade, sixth grade, 7th um uh fifth grade, sixth grade, 7th um uh fifth grade, sixth grade, 7th grade, 8th grade, 9th grade. I was real grade, 8th grade, 9th grade. I was real grade, 8th grade, 9th grade. I was real active in a lot of stuff, a lot of active in a lot of stuff, a lot of active in a lot of stuff, a lot of activities. My sister was my very good activities. My sister was my very good activities. My sister was my very good friend. Barbie is a year older than me friend. Barbie is a year older than me friend. Barbie is a year older than me and she remains a really, really, really and she remains a really, really, really and she remains a really, really, really good dear friend. She has the most good dear friend. She has the most good dear friend. She has the most therapeutic life in the world.

therapeutic life in the world. therapeutic life in the world. >> Um I have a cousin Danny. He was a good >> Um I have a cousin Danny. He was a good >> Um I have a cousin Danny. He was a good friend, but he's a cousin. Cousin, friend, but he's a cousin. Cousin, friend, but he's a cousin. Cousin, sister, they kind of don't count. sister, they kind of don't count. sister, they kind of don't count. >> And then when I was a sophomore in high >> And then when I was a sophomore in high >> And then when I was a sophomore in high school, uh there was this kid Chuck. We school, uh there was this kid Chuck. We school, uh there was this kid Chuck. We had been in choir together the previous had been in choir together the previous had been in choir together the previous year. Still were. We had an English year. Still were. We had an English year. Still were. We had an English class project to do. I went over to his class project to do. I went over to his class project to do. I went over to his house on a Saturday. And by the end of house on a Saturday. And by the end of house on a Saturday. And by the end of that week, I had a best friend. that week, I had a best friend. that week, I had a best friend. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And uh I would say for most of my good >> And uh I would say for most of my good >> And uh I would say for most of my good friendships, oddly, it happens very friendships, oddly, it happens very friendships, oddly, it happens very quickly. quickly. quickly. >> Uh my friend Rick, who you reference >> Uh my friend Rick, who you reference >> Uh my friend Rick, who you reference where we talk together pretty much every where we talk together pretty much every where we talk together pretty much every day, day, day, >> um we were sitting in a seminar in grad >> um we were sitting in a seminar in grad >> um we were sitting in a seminar in grad school. I met him when I was 22. school. I met him when I was 22. school. I met him when I was 22. >> Wow. And uh somebody uh in a little >> Wow. And uh somebody uh in a little >> Wow. And uh somebody uh in a little conversation made a reference to who won conversation made a reference to who won conversation made a reference to who won the World Series in 1914. That you know the World Series in 1914. That you know the World Series in 1914. That you know knowing the answer to this would be like knowing the answer to this would be like knowing the answer to this would be like knowing that. And I knew that was Hank knowing that. And I knew that was Hank knowing that. And I knew that was Hank Gouty and the Miracle Boston Braves. And Gouty and the Miracle Boston Braves. And Gouty and the Miracle Boston Braves. And Rick is a huge Dodger fan, loves Rick is a huge Dodger fan, loves Rick is a huge Dodger fan, loves baseball. So we spent the next hour baseball. So we spent the next hour baseball. So we spent the next hour talking about baseball trivia and by the talking about baseball trivia and by the talking about baseball trivia and by the end of that day like end of that day like end of that day like >> past friends. >> past friends. >> past friends. >> Yeah. So >> Yeah. So >> Yeah. So >> and here we are decades later. >> and here we are decades later. >> and here we are decades later. >> So you know part of the mystery of >> So you know part of the mystery of >> So you know part of the mystery of friendship is friendship is one of those friendship is friendship is one of those friendship is friendship is one of those things you just can't make happen. you things you just can't make happen. you things you just can't make happen. you can get in shape, you can learn a can get in shape, you can learn a can get in shape, you can learn a language. You know, the ache of the language. You know, the ache of the language. You know, the ache of the heart is you can't make a friend. And I heart is you can't make a friend. And I heart is you can't make a friend. And I think because I came to it later, I I it think because I came to it later, I I it think because I came to it later, I I it made me value it tremendously when it made me value it tremendously when it made me value it tremendously when it came.

came. came. So then there was a group of guys when I So then there was a group of guys when I So then there was a group of guys when I was in college and my first year in was in college and my first year in was in college and my first year in college also was quite lonely and I kind college also was quite lonely and I kind college also was quite lonely and I kind of latched on to another guy new from of latched on to another guy new from of latched on to another guy new from Rockford named Kevin and sophomore year Rockford named Kevin and sophomore year Rockford named Kevin and sophomore year kind of pushed my way into rooming with kind of pushed my way into rooming with kind of pushed my way into rooming with him and another guy and that turned into him and another guy and that turned into him and another guy and that turned into a community where a group of us still a community where a group of us still a community where a group of us still get together every year for uh at least get together every year for uh at least get together every year for uh at least once a week. I mean at least a week uh once a week. I mean at least a week uh once a week. I mean at least a week uh every year. This year we're doing it every year. This year we're doing it every year. This year we're doing it several times. get together again next several times. get together again next several times. get together again next month. Um and and that group became a month. Um and and that group became a month. Um and and that group became a really meaningful community. So um really meaningful community. So um really meaningful community. So um finding people where finding people where finding people where to me with friendship um there's joy. to me with friendship um there's joy. to me with friendship um there's joy. >> I think about uh when Moses is telling >> I think about uh when Moses is telling >> I think about uh when Moses is telling God all the reasons he can't do what God God all the reasons he can't do what God God all the reasons he can't do what God wanted him to do. wanted him to do. wanted him to do. >> And uh and then you know finally says >> And uh and then you know finally says >> And uh and then you know finally says I'm slow of speech and slow of tongue. I'm slow of speech and slow of tongue. I'm slow of speech and slow of tongue. And you know God says okay I'll send And you know God says okay I'll send And you know God says okay I'll send Aaron to be your mouthpiece. So now go Aaron to be your mouthpiece. So now go Aaron to be your mouthpiece. So now go even now Aaron is come to coming to see even now Aaron is come to coming to see even now Aaron is come to coming to see you and when he sees you his face will you and when he sees you his face will you and when he sees you his face will be glad.

be glad. be glad. >> And I I love that line and that >> And I I love that line and that >> And I I love that line and that >> line thought of there are certain people >> line thought of there are certain people >> line thought of there are certain people that when I see them I know that when I see them I know that when I see them I know >> their face will be glad. They will just >> their face will be glad. They will just >> their face will be glad. They will just for whatever reason be genuinely glad to for whatever reason be genuinely glad to for whatever reason be genuinely glad to see me. And so uh that sense of there'll see me. And so uh that sense of there'll see me. And so uh that sense of there'll just be joy. There will be energy there. just be joy. There will be energy there. just be joy. There will be energy there. That's a piece of it. And then somebody That's a piece of it. And then somebody That's a piece of it. And then somebody whose character I admire where when I'm whose character I admire where when I'm whose character I admire where when I'm with them, uh, I want to be more like with them, uh, I want to be more like with them, uh, I want to be more like them and I want to be a better self. them and I want to be a better self. them and I want to be a better self. They call my better self out, not my They call my better self out, not my They call my better self out, not my worst self. Uh, so there's that, um, worst self. Uh, so there's that, um, worst self. Uh, so there's that, um, uplift part to them. Uh and then um uplift part to them. Uh and then um uplift part to them. Uh and then um vulnerability vulnerability vulnerability where uh I think that's kind of the where uh I think that's kind of the where uh I think that's kind of the going deeper part where I'm able to say going deeper part where I'm able to say going deeper part where I'm able to say this is where I struggle. This is where this is where I struggle. This is where this is where I struggle. This is where I messed up. This is where I'm wrong. I messed up. This is where I'm wrong. I messed up. This is where I'm wrong. This is where I'm confused. This is where I'm confused. This is where I'm confused. Uh and I can meet them in that place. So Uh and I can meet them in that place. So Uh and I can meet them in that place. So I I think for me um uh I I think for me um uh I I think for me um uh unforced joy, admirable character, and unforced joy, admirable character, and unforced joy, admirable character, and uh significant vulnerability are are uh significant vulnerability are are uh significant vulnerability are are kind of the features that are there in a kind of the features that are there in a kind of the features that are there in a friendship that's going to be deep.

friendship that's going to be deep. friendship that's going to be deep. >> You know, you're one of those people >> You know, you're one of those people >> You know, you're one of those people that when I see you, my face lights up. that when I see you, my face lights up. that when I see you, my face lights up. Like it's just I I knew this week was Like it's just I I knew this week was Like it's just I I knew this week was going to be good. I didn't know it was going to be good. I didn't know it was going to be good. I didn't know it was going to happen. I just knew it was going to happen. I just knew it was going to happen. I just knew it was going to be good. But you're also going to be good. But you're also going to be good. But you're also candidly, John, one of those people who candidly, John, one of those people who candidly, John, one of those people who like you'll text me or I'll think of you like you'll text me or I'll think of you like you'll text me or I'll think of you and I'm like, why do I not talk to John and I'm like, why do I not talk to John and I'm like, why do I not talk to John more? Like, why why do I not do this? more? Like, why why do I not do this? more? Like, why why do I not do this? And you now have a lifetime of lifelong And you now have a lifetime of lifelong And you now have a lifetime of lifelong friendships? friendships? friendships? What's the key to really enduring What's the key to really enduring What's the key to really enduring because we have a lot of young leaders because we have a lot of young leaders because we have a lot of young leaders watching, listening watching, listening watching, listening >> to lifelong friendships? Everything >> to lifelong friendships? Everything >> to lifelong friendships? Everything seems so fragile today. People cancel seems so fragile today. People cancel seems so fragile today. People cancel each other. people ghost each other. each other. people ghost each other. each other. people ghost each other. What for you has been the key to What for you has been the key to What for you has been the key to lifelong friendships lifelong friendships lifelong friendships or several keys? Um or several keys? Um or several keys? Um yeah, I think again because uh because yeah, I think again because uh because yeah, I think again because uh because they were so rewarding to me, I was they were so rewarding to me, I was they were so rewarding to me, I was highly motivated highly motivated highly motivated and so um uh so it was natural to invest and so um uh so it was natural to invest and so um uh so it was natural to invest time in them.

time in them. time in them. And uh my friend in high school and then And uh my friend in high school and then And uh my friend in high school and then going through college, there was a going through college, there was a going through college, there was a community of us. Um we had uh a Greek community of us. Um we had uh a Greek community of us. Um we had uh a Greek professor named Jerry Hawthorne who professor named Jerry Hawthorne who professor named Jerry Hawthorne who became a big impact on uh all of us. And became a big impact on uh all of us. And became a big impact on uh all of us. And so we would create rituals. I think so we would create rituals. I think so we would create rituals. I think that's probably part of it also. So when that's probably part of it also. So when that's probably part of it also. So when I went I went to Wheaten College there I went I went to Wheaten College there I went I went to Wheaten College there was no chapel on Wednesday. Every was no chapel on Wednesday. Every was no chapel on Wednesday. Every Wednesday morning we would get together Wednesday morning we would get together Wednesday morning we would get together and have coffee and donuts and talk and and have coffee and donuts and talk and and have coffee and donuts and talk and then Friday afternoons we would meet in then Friday afternoons we would meet in then Friday afternoons we would meet in the student union and that would be the student union and that would be the student union and that would be another place. Bunch of us live together another place. Bunch of us live together another place. Bunch of us live together our senior year. So that was something. our senior year. So that was something. our senior year. So that was something. The group that meets every year for a The group that meets every year for a The group that meets every year for a week, that's a ritual that's in his week, that's a ritual that's in his week, that's a ritual that's in his place. Chuck and I talk every Sunday place. Chuck and I talk every Sunday place. Chuck and I talk every Sunday morning. We know we're going to do that. morning. We know we're going to do that. morning. We know we're going to do that. And then we'll talk numerous other And then we'll talk numerous other And then we'll talk numerous other times. Rick and I talk every morning at times. Rick and I talk every morning at times. Rick and I talk every morning at 6:50. So there's a bunch of um time 6:50. So there's a bunch of um time 6:50. So there's a bunch of um time placeholders that are just there. placeholders that are just there. placeholders that are just there. >> That is really good. You know, my wife >> That is really good. You know, my wife >> That is really good. You know, my wife Tony, who you know, Tony, who you know, Tony, who you know, >> she's more of a ritual person than me, >> she's more of a ritual person than me, >> she's more of a ritual person than me, and I resisted that when I was younger, and I resisted that when I was younger, and I resisted that when I was younger, and I look back on it, and I'm like, and I look back on it, and I'm like, and I look back on it, and I'm like, "Oh, man. I really missed the bus on "Oh, man. I really missed the bus on "Oh, man. I really missed the bus on that."

that." that." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like traditions, rituals. And you and >> Like traditions, rituals. And you and >> Like traditions, rituals. And you and Rick, 650 every morning for how many Rick, 650 every morning for how many Rick, 650 every morning for how many years? years? years? >> Yeah. Uh, I don't know how how many >> Yeah. Uh, I don't know how how many >> Yeah. Uh, I don't know how how many years ago we started it. And we had years ago we started it. And we had years ago we started it. And we had actually tried we've been very good actually tried we've been very good actually tried we've been very good friends since we were 22. friends since we were 22. friends since we were 22. >> Um, and we tried a few different rhythms >> Um, and we tried a few different rhythms >> Um, and we tried a few different rhythms to get into and they never worked. And to get into and they never worked. And to get into and they never worked. And then for some reason, I don't know, this then for some reason, I don't know, this then for some reason, I don't know, this is probably 10 years ago or something, is probably 10 years ago or something, is probably 10 years ago or something, uh I I don't remember where that idea uh I I don't remember where that idea uh I I don't remember where that idea came from, but I thought, well, let's came from, but I thought, well, let's came from, but I thought, well, let's try it. And honestly, I kind of didn't try it. And honestly, I kind of didn't try it. And honestly, I kind of didn't think it'd work and he kind of didn't think it'd work and he kind of didn't think it'd work and he kind of didn't think it would work, but it for some think it would work, but it for some think it would work, but it for some reason it did. It's the right time of reason it did. It's the right time of reason it did. It's the right time of day. It's the right amount of time. It's day. It's the right amount of time. It's day. It's the right amount of time. It's the right questions to talk about. So, the right questions to talk about. So, the right questions to talk about. So, we just look forward to it. And up here, we just look forward to it. And up here, we just look forward to it. And up here, I don't have good cell reception. Yeah. I don't have good cell reception. Yeah. I don't have good cell reception. Yeah. >> So, I tried calling them and I couldn't >> So, I tried calling them and I couldn't >> So, I tried calling them and I couldn't get it through. So, I texted him and get it through. So, I texted him and get it through. So, I texted him and it's like, "Oh, I just I miss hearing it's like, "Oh, I just I miss hearing it's like, "Oh, I just I miss hearing that voice in the morning." Yeah. How that voice in the morning." Yeah. How that voice in the morning." Yeah. How long is the phone call? long is the phone call? long is the phone call? >> Yeah. 10 minutes. >> Yeah. 10 minutes. >> Yeah. 10 minutes. >> That's it. Yep. >> That's it. Yep. >> That's it. Yep. >> So, it doesn't have to be this big >> So, it doesn't have to be this big >> So, it doesn't have to be this big production that like I got to get to production that like I got to get to production that like I got to get to work. Just 10 minutes. work. Just 10 minutes. work. Just 10 minutes. >> No, no, no. It it has to uh >> No, no, no. It it has to uh >> No, no, no. It it has to uh Well, sometimes temporarily I might have Well, sometimes temporarily I might have Well, sometimes temporarily I might have to push past uh lack of motivation.

to push past uh lack of motivation. to push past uh lack of motivation. >> So, maybe I'm feeling busy or >> So, maybe I'm feeling busy or >> So, maybe I'm feeling busy or preoccupied or stressed. And uh the more preoccupied or stressed. And uh the more preoccupied or stressed. And uh the more stressed I feel, the more introverted I stressed I feel, the more introverted I stressed I feel, the more introverted I get. ah get. ah get. ah >> the more relaxed I am, the more >> the more relaxed I am, the more >> the more relaxed I am, the more extroverted I get. Yeah. Folks that do extroverted I get. Yeah. Folks that do extroverted I get. Yeah. Folks that do research and they will say mostly research and they will say mostly research and they will say mostly introvers and extroversion isn't around introvers and extroversion isn't around introvers and extroversion isn't around skill set. It's what energizes you. skill set. It's what energizes you. skill set. It's what energizes you. >> And so uh my wife who has never had an >> And so uh my wife who has never had an >> And so uh my wife who has never had an unexpressed thought or feeling is unexpressed thought or feeling is unexpressed thought or feeling is extremely extroverted. So she's extremely extroverted. So she's extremely extroverted. So she's energized by people and I'm energized by energized by people and I'm energized by energized by people and I'm energized by solitude. And a friend was telling me solitude. And a friend was telling me solitude. And a friend was telling me who does research in this area. That's who does research in this area. That's who does research in this area. That's part of why very often extroverts are part of why very often extroverts are part of why very often extroverts are night people and introverts are morning night people and introverts are morning night people and introverts are morning people. people. people. >> And you're a morning person. >> And you're a morning person. >> And you're a morning person. >> When I wake up in the morning, I've been >> When I wake up in the morning, I've been >> When I wake up in the morning, I've been alone all night. And so, you know, my my alone all night. And so, you know, my my alone all night. And so, you know, my my balloon is full. It's like, no, I've had balloon is full. It's like, no, I've had balloon is full. It's like, no, I've had all this solitude. So now I can enter all this solitude. So now I can enter all this solitude. So now I can enter into a relationship. But by night time, into a relationship. But by night time, into a relationship. But by night time, I've been around people all day long and I've been around people all day long and I've been around people all day long and my balloon is empty. And with an my balloon is empty. And with an my balloon is empty. And with an extrovert, I said, you know, there's extrovert, I said, you know, there's extrovert, I said, you know, there's been walking around talking to people been walking around talking to people been walking around talking to people all day. So night's here and you know all day. So night's here and you know all day. So night's here and you know she's ready to talk and in the morning she's ready to talk and in the morning she's ready to talk and in the morning wakes up very very slowly. So um uh I I wakes up very very slowly. So um uh I I wakes up very very slowly. So um uh I I think a lot of that uh introversion think a lot of that uh introversion think a lot of that uh introversion extroversion piece is around extroversion piece is around extroversion piece is around um uh what's energizing to somebody?

um uh what's energizing to somebody? um uh what's energizing to somebody? >> When you did all those decades of >> When you did all those decades of >> When you did all those decades of ministry ministry ministry >> what was the upside to introversion and >> what was the upside to introversion and >> what was the upside to introversion and what was the downside to introversion? what was the downside to introversion? what was the downside to introversion? I think the um upside was um I think the um upside was um I think the um upside was um [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] uh things like sermon preparation and uh things like sermon preparation and uh things like sermon preparation and study and uh study and uh study and uh I think my wiring I think my wiring I think my wiring uh I think my basic wiring uh I think my basic wiring uh I think my basic wiring I I still feel kind of badly about this I I still feel kind of badly about this I I still feel kind of badly about this is more individual contributor is more individual contributor is more individual contributor >> than team player. >> than team player. >> than team player. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I say that loving teams >> Yeah. Yeah. And I say that loving teams >> Yeah. Yeah. And I say that loving teams and admiring teams and enjoying a lot and admiring teams and enjoying a lot and admiring teams and enjoying a lot being a part of a team. being a part of a team. being a part of a team. >> But I think uh people who lead teams >> But I think uh people who lead teams >> But I think uh people who lead teams effectively effectively effectively uh bring sensitivities and gifts that I uh bring sensitivities and gifts that I uh bring sensitivities and gifts that I don't have and they're able to read. You don't have and they're able to read. You don't have and they're able to read. You can ask them how's the team doing and can ask them how's the team doing and can ask them how's the team doing and like I can read an audience if I'm like I can read an audience if I'm like I can read an audience if I'm speaking. I'll feel pretty good about if speaking. I'll feel pretty good about if speaking. I'll feel pretty good about if I'm in front of a group of people. Um I I'm in front of a group of people. Um I I'm in front of a group of people. Um I I remember one time when I was in I remember one time when I was in I remember one time when I was in Chicago at church and a guy got up and Chicago at church and a guy got up and Chicago at church and a guy got up and he didn't speak a lot but he spoke then he didn't speak a lot but he spoke then he didn't speak a lot but he spoke then and he sat down and I said, "Man, the and he sat down and I said, "Man, the and he sat down and I said, "Man, the room was so still when you were room was so still when you were room was so still when you were speaking." And he said, "Oh, was it like speaking." And he said, "Oh, was it like speaking." And he said, "Oh, was it like he didn't notice?" And for me, I am he didn't notice?" And for me, I am he didn't notice?" And for me, I am sensitive to that to a fault. And so sensitive to that to a fault. And so sensitive to that to a fault. And so that's where if I feel like the room's that's where if I feel like the room's that's where if I feel like the room's starting to slip away, I can get overly starting to slip away, I can get overly starting to slip away, I can get overly anxious and work too hard to try to keep

anxious and work too hard to try to keep anxious and work too hard to try to keep and so but I'll feel like my radar there and so but I'll feel like my radar there and so but I'll feel like my radar there are um uh uh pretty in tune. But with a are um uh uh pretty in tune. But with a are um uh uh pretty in tune. But with a team uh I think they're much less team uh I think they're much less team uh I think they're much less well-developed. And of course part of well-developed. And of course part of well-developed. And of course part of the problem then is I don't know that the problem then is I don't know that the problem then is I don't know that they're much well well developed. It's they're much well well developed. It's they're much well well developed. It's like if you have bad pitch, you don't like if you have bad pitch, you don't like if you have bad pitch, you don't know you have bad pitch. [laughter] know you have bad pitch. [laughter] know you have bad pitch. [laughter] everything sounds okay. So, um, so I everything sounds okay. So, um, so I everything sounds okay. So, um, so I think that people who have those kind of think that people who have those kind of think that people who have those kind of skills, they can tell if a team's doing skills, they can tell if a team's doing skills, they can tell if a team's doing well. If this guy and that guy are not well. If this guy and that guy are not well. If this guy and that guy are not getting along, they'll pick up that getting along, they'll pick up that getting along, they'll pick up that tension real quickly. If somebody's kind tension real quickly. If somebody's kind tension real quickly. If somebody's kind of off to the corner, not contributing of off to the corner, not contributing of off to the corner, not contributing much. Uh, if the team's really having much. Uh, if the team's really having much. Uh, if the team's really having great fun, they're able to pick it up great fun, they're able to pick it up great fun, they're able to pick it up quicker. It's always a little tricky quicker. It's always a little tricky quicker. It's always a little tricky because I like to teach and I like to because I like to teach and I like to because I like to teach and I like to learn about stuff so I can learn about learn about stuff so I can learn about learn about stuff so I can learn about those things and talk about them and those things and talk about them and those things and talk about them and then people hear me talk about it. and then people hear me talk about it. and then people hear me talk about it. and think, "Oh, he must be a really good think, "Oh, he must be a really good think, "Oh, he must be a really good team leader." But when it comes to team leader." But when it comes to team leader." But when it comes to actually doing it well and being actually doing it well and being actually doing it well and being energized by it, um then I think not so energized by it, um then I think not so energized by it, um then I think not so much. So in the pastoral world, I think much. So in the pastoral world, I think much. So in the pastoral world, I think um uh spending a lot of time trying to um uh spending a lot of time trying to um uh spending a lot of time trying to read and study and reflect and pray to read and study and reflect and pray to read and study and reflect and pray to prepare to preach uh came pretty prepare to preach uh came pretty prepare to preach uh came pretty naturally to me. And it it was it was naturally to me. And it it was it was naturally to me. And it it was it was hard for me not to do those things. I hard for me not to do those things. I hard for me not to do those things. I would feel anxious if I didn't do them.

would feel anxious if I didn't do them. would feel anxious if I didn't do them. Um, however, then I think um building a Um, however, then I think um building a Um, however, then I think um building a great team, I think I was clumsier at great team, I think I was clumsier at great team, I think I was clumsier at that. I think I would find I I ended up that. I think I would find I I ended up that. I think I would find I I ended up trying to get a sermon done uh uh the trying to get a sermon done uh uh the trying to get a sermon done uh uh the first couple days of the week and I first couple days of the week and I first couple days of the week and I would do lots of prep ahead of time so would do lots of prep ahead of time so would do lots of prep ahead of time so that on any given message when I came in that on any given message when I came in that on any given message when I came in uh on a Monday morning I would usually uh on a Monday morning I would usually uh on a Monday morning I would usually take Fridays off so I'd be in on Monday take Fridays off so I'd be in on Monday take Fridays off so I'd be in on Monday morning uh I could work hard Monday morning uh I could work hard Monday morning uh I could work hard Monday morning, Tuesday morning and have a morning, Tuesday morning and have a morning, Tuesday morning and have a draft which I would always have Nancy draft which I would always have Nancy draft which I would always have Nancy read on Tuesday nights. the advantage of read on Tuesday nights. the advantage of read on Tuesday nights. the advantage of being married to somebody else that being married to somebody else that being married to somebody else that preaches. And uh it would feel like by preaches. And uh it would feel like by preaches. And uh it would feel like by that time I'd walk it through with her. that time I'd walk it through with her. that time I'd walk it through with her. I would have this little internal click. I would have this little internal click. I would have this little internal click. Okay, that's going to work. It's like uh Okay, that's going to work. It's like uh Okay, that's going to work. It's like uh I need to tweak it more. But and and I need to tweak it more. But and and I need to tweak it more. But and and until that click goes, there's a part of until that click goes, there's a part of until that click goes, there's a part of my mind that's constantly preoccupied. my mind that's constantly preoccupied. my mind that's constantly preoccupied. >> There's just a portion of >> There's just a portion of >> There's just a portion of >> I can't really focus on other things. I >> I can't really focus on other things. I >> I can't really focus on other things. I can't be 100% present for anything else can't be 100% present for anything else can't be 100% present for anything else cuz there's just some percentage of my cuz there's just some percentage of my cuz there's just some percentage of my brain that's working on that and then brain that's working on that and then brain that's working on that and then when it clicks, okay, now I can be and when it clicks, okay, now I can be and when it clicks, okay, now I can be and so I think probably the folks that so I think probably the folks that so I think probably the folks that worked with me would be able to tell worked with me would be able to tell worked with me would be able to tell much better than me when I'm in a place much better than me when I'm in a place much better than me when I'm in a place where I'm more accessible and more where I'm more accessible and more where I'm more accessible and more available and come on into my office, available and come on into my office, available and come on into my office, let's talk and laugh and when I'm much let's talk and laugh and when I'm much let's talk and laugh and when I'm much more like this so that I'm just sending more like this so that I'm just sending more like this so that I'm just sending off vibes that say don't interrupt me.

off vibes that say don't interrupt me. off vibes that say don't interrupt me. But but to me internally, that all feels But but to me internally, that all feels But but to me internally, that all feels so dictated by the task that lie before so dictated by the task that lie before so dictated by the task that lie before me that I'm not aware of sending off me that I'm not aware of sending off me that I'm not aware of sending off those vibes. those vibes. those vibes. >> That's an incredible pressure every >> That's an incredible pressure every >> That's an incredible pressure every seven days. seven days. seven days. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> 30 40 times a year to come up with a >> 30 40 times a year to come up with a >> 30 40 times a year to come up with a message that a lot of people are going message that a lot of people are going message that a lot of people are going to hear, watch. to hear, watch. to hear, watch. >> That's a lot of pressure. >> That's a lot of pressure. >> That's a lot of pressure. If you bit of an interesting question If you bit of an interesting question If you bit of an interesting question because I'm thinking about because I'm thinking about because I'm thinking about what parts of the church are healthy, what parts of the church are healthy, what parts of the church are healthy, what parts could use a tuning? But we what parts could use a tuning? But we what parts could use a tuning? But we kind of have a one-sizefits-all that if kind of have a one-sizefits-all that if kind of have a one-sizefits-all that if you're going to be a pastor, you're you're going to be a pastor, you're you're going to be a pastor, you're going to be a lead pastor or an XP. And going to be a lead pastor or an XP. And going to be a lead pastor or an XP. And an XP tends to be I'm not on the stage an XP tends to be I'm not on the stage an XP tends to be I'm not on the stage as much. I'm doing all the the back as much. I'm doing all the the back as much. I'm doing all the the back work. But if you could craft an ideal work. But if you could craft an ideal work. But if you could craft an ideal job description for your wiring, I mean, job description for your wiring, I mean, job description for your wiring, I mean, the phrase that comes to my mind is the phrase that comes to my mind is the phrase that comes to my mind is scholar in residence. who also teaches, scholar in residence. who also teaches, scholar in residence. who also teaches, >> you know, you're sort of in your turret >> you know, you're sort of in your turret >> you know, you're sort of in your turret during the week. You're studying, during the week. You're studying, during the week. You're studying, researching, consulting as necessary. researching, consulting as necessary. researching, consulting as necessary. You come out on the weekend, away you You come out on the weekend, away you You come out on the weekend, away you go.

go. go. >> What? Feel free to say no. That'd be a >> What? Feel free to say no. That'd be a >> What? Feel free to say no. That'd be a terrible job description. But terrible job description. But terrible job description. But >> no, I think that sounds great. I don't >> no, I think that sounds great. I don't >> no, I think that sounds great. I don't think I'm enough of an academician to be think I'm enough of an academician to be think I'm enough of an academician to be a scholar, although I admire that a scholar, although I admire that a scholar, although I admire that preacher and res. But yeah, that sort of preacher and res. But yeah, that sort of preacher and res. But yeah, that sort of thing where I can be learning and uh uh thing where I can be learning and uh uh thing where I can be learning and uh uh trying to figure out how to communicate. trying to figure out how to communicate. trying to figure out how to communicate. I love uh the task of the world of I love uh the task of the world of I love uh the task of the world of spiritual formation. I think that the spiritual formation. I think that the spiritual formation. I think that the formation of the human spirit and formation of the human spirit and formation of the human spirit and character is the most important process character is the most important process character is the most important process in the universe. And so to be learning in the universe. And so to be learning in the universe. And so to be learning about that and communicating, but then about that and communicating, but then about that and communicating, but then to be engaged in it myself to be engaged in it myself to be engaged in it myself >> and so >> and so >> and so is that kind of what you had at Willow is that kind of what you had at Willow is that kind of what you had at Willow in Chicago? Um, I I would say now I'm in Chicago? Um, I I would say now I'm in Chicago? Um, I I would say now I'm not at a church right now, but what I'm not at a church right now, but what I'm not at a church right now, but what I'm doing right now with Become New, uh, doing right now with Become New, uh, doing right now with Become New, uh, >> there you go. >> there you go. >> there you go. >> Feels like it's just center of the >> Feels like it's just center of the >> Feels like it's just center of the target. We have a little team. Um, and target. We have a little team. Um, and target. We have a little team. Um, and it's small enough and the people on it it's small enough and the people on it it's small enough and the people on it are so skilled and have such great are so skilled and have such great are so skilled and have such great hearts that it's hard for me to mess it hearts that it's hard for me to mess it hearts that it's hard for me to mess it up. And, um, so I don't feel like I'm up. And, um, so I don't feel like I'm up. And, um, so I don't feel like I'm getting in the way of the development of getting in the way of the development of getting in the way of the development of that. and we're real clear together that. and we're real clear together that. and we're real clear together partly because uh it grew out of pain in partly because uh it grew out of pain in partly because uh it grew out of pain in my own life. Uh and I didn't know um my own life. Uh and I didn't know um my own life. Uh and I didn't know um will it go on or not? You know, will it will it go on or not? You know, will it will it go on or not? You know, will it we we started just sending videos out to we we started just sending videos out to we we started just sending videos out to 20 people. Will it just stay like that?

20 people. Will it just stay like that? 20 people. Will it just stay like that? So, from the beginning, the deal has So, from the beginning, the deal has So, from the beginning, the deal has been our first priority is uh the main been our first priority is uh the main been our first priority is uh the main thing God gets out of your life is the thing God gets out of your life is the thing God gets out of your life is the person you become, Dallas would say. So person you become, Dallas would say. So person you become, Dallas would say. So arranging our lives so that we become arranging our lives so that we become arranging our lives so that we become the people, the people, the people, friends, spouses, parents, whatever that friends, spouses, parents, whatever that friends, spouses, parents, whatever that God wants us to be. God wants us to be. God wants us to be. And if we have to And if we have to And if we have to uh put that at risk in order to succeed uh put that at risk in order to succeed uh put that at risk in order to succeed more or put success at risk in order to more or put success at risk in order to more or put success at risk in order to do that more, we'll be real clear that do that more, we'll be real clear that do that more, we'll be real clear that becoming is always the most important. becoming is always the most important. becoming is always the most important. >> So we will arrange our lives around that >> So we will arrange our lives around that >> So we will arrange our lives around that first. And that's been just a lifegiving first. And that's been just a lifegiving first. And that's been just a lifegiving thing to name and say, "Yeah, we can do thing to name and say, "Yeah, we can do thing to name and say, "Yeah, we can do that." So, I would say when I was in that." So, I would say when I was in that." So, I would say when I was in Chicago at Willow Creek, I was a Chicago at Willow Creek, I was a Chicago at Willow Creek, I was a teaching pastor. It was probably the teaching pastor. It was probably the teaching pastor. It was probably the best fit for my gifts. However, uh I best fit for my gifts. However, uh I best fit for my gifts. However, uh I don't think I need to be in the lead don't think I need to be in the lead don't think I need to be in the lead share of a team at all, but to feel like share of a team at all, but to feel like share of a team at all, but to feel like I can be a vital I can be a vital I can be a vital um whole person in a real healthy team um whole person in a real healthy team um whole person in a real healthy team dynamic where uh uh the the team is dynamic where uh uh the the team is dynamic where uh uh the the team is lifegiving to the members of it and um lifegiving to the members of it and um lifegiving to the members of it and um uh there's a pretty egalitarian Ian uh there's a pretty egalitarian Ian uh there's a pretty egalitarian Ian culture to it. That's part of it that I culture to it. That's part of it that I culture to it. That's part of it that I love. And I would say my experience in love. And I would say my experience in love. And I would say my experience in Chicago was less that. So I felt a

Chicago was less that. So I felt a Chicago was less that. So I felt a little more pigeonhold or um hold little more pigeonhold or um hold little more pigeonhold or um hold than what would be most life-giving for than what would be most life-giving for than what would be most life-giving for me. me. me. >> So you've kind of drafted your own ideal >> So you've kind of drafted your own ideal >> So you've kind of drafted your own ideal job description and here you are job description and here you are job description and here you are >> kind of. Yeah. I've just kind of worked >> kind of. Yeah. I've just kind of worked >> kind of. Yeah. I've just kind of worked into it backwards. Yeah. into it backwards. Yeah. into it backwards. Yeah. >> Yeah. What were the parts that drained >> Yeah. What were the parts that drained >> Yeah. What were the parts that drained you in ministry? Whether that was at you in ministry? Whether that was at you in ministry? Whether that was at Menllo, at Willow, or the other churches Menllo, at Willow, or the other churches Menllo, at Willow, or the other churches where you served, like what parts of it where you served, like what parts of it where you served, like what parts of it that you wake up in the morning, it's that you wake up in the morning, it's that you wake up in the morning, it's like, "Oh, thank goodness. I don't need like, "Oh, thank goodness. I don't need like, "Oh, thank goodness. I don't need to do this." to do this." to do this." >> Yeah. I remember the first church I was >> Yeah. I remember the first church I was >> Yeah. I remember the first church I was at full-time, we were going to have uh at full-time, we were going to have uh at full-time, we were going to have uh elders retreat and trying to put the elders retreat and trying to put the elders retreat and trying to put the format together for what we would do on format together for what we would do on format together for what we would do on the elders retreat. I can remember going the elders retreat. I can remember going the elders retreat. I can remember going away and working on that by myself. I away and working on that by myself. I away and working on that by myself. I was such an idiot. Oh yeah. was such an idiot. Oh yeah. was such an idiot. Oh yeah. >> Like there are so many people who are >> Like there are so many people who are >> Like there are so many people who are good at that. there's so many resources good at that. there's so many resources good at that. there's so many resources for it, but it just didn't occur to me for it, but it just didn't occur to me for it, but it just didn't occur to me that there were places that I could tap that there were places that I could tap that there were places that I could tap into. So, I felt like I had to do it. into. So, I felt like I had to do it. into. So, I felt like I had to do it. So, I would go get a few books and that So, I would go get a few books and that So, I would go get a few books and that was exhausting to me. was exhausting to me. was exhausting to me. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> uh, >> uh, >> uh, >> if there's a conflict between it and HR >> if there's a conflict between it and HR >> if there's a conflict between it and HR and they are not getting along and I got and they are not getting along and I got and they are not getting along and I got to identify it and mediate it and figure to identify it and mediate it and figure to identify it and mediate it and figure out how to do that staff person that's out how to do that staff person that's out how to do that staff person that's going the wrong direction. I remember going the wrong direction. I remember going the wrong direction. I remember one time uh we had a staff person who um one time uh we had a staff person who um one time uh we had a staff person who um was going to be leaving the church and was going to be leaving the church and was going to be leaving the church and there needed to be a conversation about there needed to be a conversation about there needed to be a conversation about uh financially what would that process uh financially what would that process uh financially what would that process look like.

look like. look like. >> And we had a woman named Emily who had >> And we had a woman named Emily who had >> And we had a woman named Emily who had been a leader in the Silicon Valley and been a leader in the Silicon Valley and been a leader in the Silicon Valley and she came on staff temporarily for a she came on staff temporarily for a she came on staff temporarily for a while. So when that conversation while. So when that conversation while. So when that conversation happened, it was that staff person and happened, it was that staff person and happened, it was that staff person and Emily, and I just sat in on to be Emily, and I just sat in on to be Emily, and I just sat in on to be present for it. And the person said, present for it. And the person said, present for it. And the person said, "Well, I think I'm going to need this "Well, I think I'm going to need this "Well, I think I'm going to need this much." And Emily's immediate response much." And Emily's immediate response much." And Emily's immediate response is, "Oh, that's that's a non-starter. is, "Oh, that's that's a non-starter. is, "Oh, that's that's a non-starter. Let's start again." And I realized when Let's start again." And I realized when Let's start again." And I realized when Emily said that, if I had been in her Emily said that, if I had been in her Emily said that, if I had been in her chair and this person said, "Here's what chair and this person said, "Here's what chair and this person said, "Here's what I need." I said, "Well, I need." I said, "Well, I need." I said, "Well, I don't know that that's going to work. I don't know that that's going to work. I don't know that that's going to work. I'm going to have to go back and talk to I'm going to have to go back and talk to I'm going to have to go back and talk to some of the elders about that." And it some of the elders about that." And it some of the elders about that." And it would have taken I don't know how many would have taken I don't know how many would have taken I don't know how many days or weeks and hours and and with days or weeks and hours and and with days or weeks and hours and and with Emily it was like she cut the Gordian Emily it was like she cut the Gordian Emily it was like she cut the Gordian knot and the person just accepted was knot and the person just accepted was knot and the person just accepted was like well okay I guess that's so that like well okay I guess that's so that like well okay I guess that's so that kind of stuff it's like kind of stuff it's like kind of stuff it's like >> I was so bad at it but I didn't know how >> I was so bad at it but I didn't know how >> I was so bad at it but I didn't know how bad at it I was until I could watch bad at it I was until I could watch bad at it I was until I could watch somebody who's just way better at it. Um somebody who's just way better at it. Um somebody who's just way better at it. Um yeah, so much of those aspects of the um yeah, so much of those aspects of the um yeah, so much of those aspects of the um uh for lack of better language for it, uh for lack of better language for it, uh for lack of better language for it, administrative leadership of the church administrative leadership of the church administrative leadership of the church uh uh was um uh I had less skill for uh uh was um uh I had less skill for uh uh was um uh I had less skill for some parts of it. I like I like vision some parts of it. I like I like vision some parts of it. I like I like vision casting a lot.

casting a lot. casting a lot. >> So that's fun. There'll be aspects of uh >> So that's fun. There'll be aspects of uh >> So that's fun. There'll be aspects of uh strategic thinking that I will enjoy strategic thinking that I will enjoy strategic thinking that I will enjoy quite a lot. There'll be times in being quite a lot. There'll be times in being quite a lot. There'll be times in being together with a team where it'll feel together with a team where it'll feel together with a team where it'll feel like ah I think we're moving in the like ah I think we're moving in the like ah I think we're moving in the right direction and I get joy out of it right direction and I get joy out of it right direction and I get joy out of it and that's a good thing. So it was never and that's a good thing. So it was never and that's a good thing. So it was never something where it felt like it was 180 something where it felt like it was 180 something where it felt like it was 180 degrees in the wrong direction. Um but degrees in the wrong direction. Um but degrees in the wrong direction. Um but there were definitely uh draining there were definitely uh draining there were definitely uh draining elements of it. elements of it. elements of it. >> How did you find the energy? Because I >> How did you find the energy? Because I >> How did you find the energy? Because I think we can all identify with parts of think we can all identify with parts of think we can all identify with parts of it and maybe some people are having the it and maybe some people are having the it and maybe some people are having the opposite experience. They don't want to opposite experience. They don't want to opposite experience. They don't want to teach, but they love the HR and they teach, but they love the HR and they teach, but they love the HR and they love this and everything. love this and everything. love this and everything. >> But everybody's got a job description >> But everybody's got a job description >> But everybody's got a job description >> where there are parts of it you love, >> where there are parts of it you love, >> where there are parts of it you love, parts of it you don't. And even though parts of it you don't. And even though parts of it you don't. And even though I'm doing my dream job right now, like I'm doing my dream job right now, like I'm doing my dream job right now, like you you you >> are parts of it I like better than the >> are parts of it I like better than the >> are parts of it I like better than the other. other. other. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, I enjoy doing the interviews >> You know, I enjoy doing the interviews >> You know, I enjoy doing the interviews more than prep for the interviews. more than prep for the interviews. more than prep for the interviews. >> I just just enjoy having the >> I just just enjoy having the >> I just just enjoy having the conversations. Haven't looked at my conversations. Haven't looked at my conversations. Haven't looked at my notes, you know, all that. But I didn't notes, you know, all that. But I didn't notes, you know, all that. But I didn't did research for this and got ready for did research for this and got ready for did research for this and got ready for this. this. this. >> How did you for decade upon decade >> How did you for decade upon decade >> How did you for decade upon decade continue on even though there were continue on even though there were continue on even though there were meaningful portions of the job that meaningful portions of the job that meaningful portions of the job that drained you. You drained you. You drained you. You >> know, um I was talking to Nance about >> know, um I was talking to Nance about >> know, um I was talking to Nance about that. It's interesting. She's she's uh that. It's interesting. She's she's uh that. It's interesting. She's she's uh kind of an entrepreneurial type person kind of an entrepreneurial type person kind of an entrepreneurial type person and her career's kind of gone 10 years and her career's kind of gone 10 years and her career's kind of gone 10 years at a time. She was a nurse. Uh she at a time. She was a nurse. Uh she at a time. She was a nurse. Uh she worked at our church in Chicago. She did worked at our church in Chicago. She did worked at our church in Chicago. She did consulting with Patrick Lencion.

consulting with Patrick Lencion. consulting with Patrick Lencion. >> Um she's worked with Transforming the >> Um she's worked with Transforming the >> Um she's worked with Transforming the Bay with Christ. Um, she likes doing Bay with Christ. Um, she likes doing Bay with Christ. Um, she likes doing lots of things. She likes horseback lots of things. She likes horseback lots of things. She likes horseback riding. She used to like to run. She riding. She used to like to run. She riding. She used to like to run. She likes to surf. Uh, lots of different likes to surf. Uh, lots of different likes to surf. Uh, lots of different skill sets. I'm more of a, uh, do one skill sets. I'm more of a, uh, do one skill sets. I'm more of a, uh, do one thing and go deep with it. So, I played thing and go deep with it. So, I played thing and go deep with it. So, I played a lot of tennis when I was grow up. Kind a lot of tennis when I was grow up. Kind a lot of tennis when I was grow up. Kind of worked hard at the piano. Um, of worked hard at the piano. Um, of worked hard at the piano. Um, preaching. Uh, for some reason, I'll preaching. Uh, for some reason, I'll preaching. Uh, for some reason, I'll tend to plug into something and just tend to plug into something and just tend to plug into something and just keep plotting. keep plotting. keep plotting. And I don't know if that's good or bad, And I don't know if that's good or bad, And I don't know if that's good or bad, but that's what I'll tend to do. And but that's what I'll tend to do. And but that's what I'll tend to do. And then I'm a three on the anagram. So for then I'm a three on the anagram. So for then I'm a three on the anagram. So for better and for worse. How am I doing? better and for worse. How am I doing? better and for worse. How am I doing? Hey Carrie, how's this going? How's the Hey Carrie, how's this going? How's the Hey Carrie, how's this going? How's the conversation going so far? Great. Pretty conversation going so far? Great. Pretty conversation going so far? Great. Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Um so uh so I can push good. Yeah. Yeah. Um so uh so I can push good. Yeah. Yeah. Um so uh so I can push myself to do that. Uh my dad was a nine myself to do that. Uh my dad was a nine myself to do that. Uh my dad was a nine on the enagram. on the enagram. on the enagram. >> Oh, so he's making peace with everybody. >> Oh, so he's making peace with everybody. >> Oh, so he's making peace with everybody. >> And so Yep. and he ended up working as >> And so Yep. and he ended up working as >> And so Yep. and he ended up working as an executive pastor at a church an executive pastor at a church an executive pastor at a church >> and they they had a consultant come in >> and they they had a consultant come in >> and they they had a consultant come in to work with the team and one of the to work with the team and one of the to work with the team and one of the things the consultant said to my dad was things the consultant said to my dad was things the consultant said to my dad was John you have no engine John you have no engine John you have no engine you know if you're a nine now my dad you know if you're a nine now my dad you know if you're a nine now my dad loved to play tennis he loved sports he loved to play tennis he loved sports he loved to play tennis he loved sports he would work at stuff conscientiously would work at stuff conscientiously would work at stuff conscientiously but there wasn't necessarily a uh kind but there wasn't necessarily a uh kind but there wasn't necessarily a uh kind of drive or ambition to push something of drive or ambition to push something of drive or ambition to push something >> and for me um ambition has been present >> and for me um ambition has been present >> and for me um ambition has been present uh often in a problematic way so that I

uh often in a problematic way so that I uh often in a problematic way so that I have to step back and say now am I have to step back and say now am I have to step back and say now am I really serving the church or am I just really serving the church or am I just really serving the church or am I just using it to try to be successful and you using it to try to be successful and you using it to try to be successful and you know that's a constant question that I know that's a constant question that I know that's a constant question that I will probably wrestle with until I die will probably wrestle with until I die will probably wrestle with until I die um but one of the positive sides of that um but one of the positive sides of that um but one of the positive sides of that is I have an engine is I have an engine is I have an engine >> and uh so there's uh it's usually not >> and uh so there's uh it's usually not >> and uh so there's uh it's usually not hard for me to find the motivation to hard for me to find the motivation to hard for me to find the motivation to say I got to work at this. say I got to work at this. say I got to work at this. >> Let's go back to those performer roots, >> Let's go back to those performer roots, >> Let's go back to those performer roots, you know, of an enog 3 and you talked you know, of an enog 3 and you talked you know, of an enog 3 and you talked about that like, you know, being about that like, you know, being about that like, you know, being noticed, noticed, noticed, >> being remarkable, >> being remarkable, >> being remarkable, >> sports, you know, whether it's student >> sports, you know, whether it's student >> sports, you know, whether it's student body, whatever, whatever that was. body, whatever, whatever that was. body, whatever, whatever that was. >> Where did that come from, John? >> Uh, >> Uh, I think I think some of it is wiring. I I think I think some of it is wiring. I I think I think some of it is wiring. I think some of it is just genetic think some of it is just genetic think some of it is just genetic predisposition. predisposition. predisposition. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> came out of the womb >> came out of the womb >> came out of the womb >> from when I was a little kid. My I don't >> from when I was a little kid. My I don't >> from when I was a little kid. My I don't remember this, but my parents say before remember this, but my parents say before remember this, but my parents say before I was two, my sister was going to speak I was two, my sister was going to speak I was two, my sister was going to speak at our church, Rockford Gospel at our church, Rockford Gospel at our church, Rockford Gospel Tabernacle to open up the Sunday school Tabernacle to open up the Sunday school Tabernacle to open up the Sunday school convention or something like that.

convention or something like that. convention or something like that. >> And that I'm the youngest child to speak >> And that I'm the youngest child to speak >> And that I'm the youngest child to speak here today, but you're welcome here. here today, but you're welcome here. here today, but you're welcome here. That's all I can say. I learned that That's all I can say. I learned that That's all I can say. I learned that speech and demanded to be allowed to say speech and demanded to be allowed to say speech and demanded to be allowed to say it in front of the church. it in front of the church. it in front of the church. >> No way. My my parents tell me that is a >> No way. My my parents tell me that is a >> No way. My my parents tell me that is a true story and I I don't remember it but true story and I I don't remember it but true story and I I don't remember it but yes they they say that it is. So I think yes they they say that it is. So I think yes they they say that it is. So I think that was it really early on. Um they that was it really early on. Um they that was it really early on. Um they also tell me a story I don't remember also tell me a story I don't remember also tell me a story I don't remember when I was very young I don't know three when I was very young I don't know three when I was very young I don't know three or something and we were on vacation. We or something and we were on vacation. We or something and we were on vacation. We were actually on a steamer cruise in were actually on a steamer cruise in were actually on a steamer cruise in Canada Canada Canada >> and I said to my dad you know why people >> and I said to my dad you know why people >> and I said to my dad you know why people don't change? He said no. I said people don't change? He said no. I said people don't change? He said no. I said people don't change because they don't want to don't change because they don't want to don't change because they don't want to change. change. change. So that question of why do people So that question of why do people So that question of why do people change, why do people not change, but change, why do people not change, but change, why do people not change, but you know, how does faith in that that you know, how does faith in that that you know, how does faith in that that stuff has just always been interesting stuff has just always been interesting stuff has just always been interesting part of your DNA? part of your DNA? part of your DNA? >> Uh uh yeah, to to be able to be in front >> Uh uh yeah, to to be able to be in front >> Uh uh yeah, to to be able to be in front of a crowd if that moment is going well of a crowd if that moment is going well of a crowd if that moment is going well and there's a connection at the heart and there's a connection at the heart and there's a connection at the heart level and the head level. Um uh I have level and the head level. Um uh I have level and the head level. Um uh I have felt a kind of aliveness in that and felt a kind of aliveness in that and felt a kind of aliveness in that and again that can be ego-driven and it can again that can be ego-driven and it can again that can be ego-driven and it can be wrong but I think there's other ways be wrong but I think there's other ways be wrong but I think there's other ways where it's just uh we all have gifts and where it's just uh we all have gifts and where it's just uh we all have gifts and there's gifts that I admire that I don't there's gifts that I admire that I don't there's gifts that I admire that I don't have that I wish I had more of and have that I wish I had more of and have that I wish I had more of and that's that's one that just happens to that's that's one that just happens to that's that's one that just happens to be there and it it can be very be there and it it can be very be there and it it can be very meaningful when it crops up. So yeah, I meaningful when it crops up. So yeah, I meaningful when it crops up. So yeah, I think it was there think it was there think it was there >> and and then I think in my family uh it

>> and and then I think in my family uh it >> and and then I think in my family uh it certainly was not a place where I would certainly was not a place where I would certainly was not a place where I would have been shamed for that at all. It have been shamed for that at all. It have been shamed for that at all. It would have been very would have been very would have been very >> encouraged. >> encouraged. >> encouraged. >> Yeah. Very much encouraged. Yeah. >> Yeah. Very much encouraged. Yeah. >> Yeah. Very much encouraged. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean I have a performer gene as >> Yeah. I mean I have a performer gene as >> Yeah. I mean I have a performer gene as well, a performance addiction that I've well, a performance addiction that I've well, a performance addiction that I've had to get over that I've talked about had to get over that I've talked about had to get over that I've talked about publicly and that works for you and it publicly and that works for you and it publicly and that works for you and it works against you and God is present in works against you and God is present in works against you and God is present in all of it. But, you know, that's not all of it. But, you know, that's not all of it. But, you know, that's not something since I've gotten to know you something since I've gotten to know you something since I've gotten to know you or even from a distance before I knew or even from a distance before I knew or even from a distance before I knew you personally, I easily picked up on. you personally, I easily picked up on. you personally, I easily picked up on. And so, you know, when you shared that And so, you know, when you shared that And so, you know, when you shared that with me the first time, I'm like, "Oh, I with me the first time, I'm like, "Oh, I with me the first time, I'm like, "Oh, I wouldn't have guessed." How have you wouldn't have guessed." How have you wouldn't have guessed." How have you modulated that over time? Like, where modulated that over time? Like, where modulated that over time? Like, where did you see the tail of the beast or the did you see the tail of the beast or the did you see the tail of the beast or the head of the beast head of the beast head of the beast >> and dial it in? Like, how did it show >> and dial it in? Like, how did it show >> and dial it in? Like, how did it show up? And cuz you know, as as Andy Stanley up? And cuz you know, as as Andy Stanley up? And cuz you know, as as Andy Stanley has said, if you ever put one of these has said, if you ever put one of these has said, if you ever put one of these microphones and taped it to your face, microphones and taped it to your face, microphones and taped it to your face, you live for the applause. Quoting Lady you live for the applause. Quoting Lady you live for the applause. Quoting Lady Gaga. And I think there's there's truth Gaga. And I think there's there's truth Gaga. And I think there's there's truth to that. to that. to that. >> Yeah. Um, you know, it certainly would >> Yeah. Um, you know, it certainly would >> Yeah. Um, you know, it certainly would have shown up early on in jealousy. M.

have shown up early on in jealousy. M. have shown up early on in jealousy. M. >> So, first church I worked at when I was >> So, first church I worked at when I was >> So, first church I worked at when I was going through Fuller Seminary, we had a going through Fuller Seminary, we had a going through Fuller Seminary, we had a uh uh another staff member, a minister uh uh another staff member, a minister uh uh another staff member, a minister of music, uh great big guy. He was a of music, uh great big guy. He was a of music, uh great big guy. He was a year younger than me. And he passed away year younger than me. And he passed away year younger than me. And he passed away 15 or 20 years ago now in a real sad 15 or 20 years ago now in a real sad 15 or 20 years ago now in a real sad situation, but uh situation, but uh situation, but uh larger than life. This is a Baptist larger than life. This is a Baptist larger than life. This is a Baptist church and he would conduct the choir. church and he would conduct the choir. church and he would conduct the choir. He was from black church tradition He was from black church tradition He was from black church tradition >> and he he would dance on the platform >> and he he would dance on the platform >> and he he would dance on the platform >> and people would go crazy. They would uh >> and people would go crazy. They would uh >> and people would go crazy. They would uh you know he'd have the choir do the you know he'd have the choir do the you know he'd have the choir do the angels roll the stone away or ain't got angels roll the stone away or ain't got angels roll the stone away or ain't got time to die and the church would not let time to die and the church would not let time to die and the church would not let him stop without three or four encourse. him stop without three or four encourse. him stop without three or four encourse. And I can remember uh one night when And I can remember uh one night when And I can remember uh one night when there was a huge concert place packed there was a huge concert place packed there was a huge concert place packed people just going nuts in flight. Oh man people just going nuts in flight. Oh man people just going nuts in flight. Oh man I wish that was me up there. I don't I wish that was me up there. I don't I wish that was me up there. I don't like that feeling. That's not good. And like that feeling. That's not good. And like that feeling. That's not good. And here's my friend. He was in my wedding. here's my friend. He was in my wedding. here's my friend. He was in my wedding. I was at his wedding. So those, you I was at his wedding. So those, you I was at his wedding. So those, you know, uh the awareness of it, know, uh the awareness of it, know, uh the awareness of it, particularly when it comes, particularly when it comes, particularly when it comes, that's probably where it would have that's probably where it would have that's probably where it would have surfaced. And I got to really watch surfaced. And I got to really watch surfaced. And I got to really watch this. I got to talk about it. I got to this. I got to talk about it. I got to this. I got to talk about it. I got to pray about it. I got to practice pray about it. I got to practice pray about it. I got to practice cheering people on. All that kind of cheering people on. All that kind of cheering people on. All that kind of stuff. Uh so there would be that side of stuff. Uh so there would be that side of stuff. Uh so there would be that side of it. Um the other part of it is like when it. Um the other part of it is like when it. Um the other part of it is like when I left Menllo and for I left Menllo and for I left Menllo and for you know the next couple of years you know the next couple of years you know the next couple of years certainly the next year essentially did

certainly the next year essentially did certainly the next year essentially did not do any kind of teaching or stuff in not do any kind of teaching or stuff in not do any kind of teaching or stuff in front of people. front of people. front of people. >> Yeah. You took yourself out. >> Yeah. You took yourself out. >> Yeah. You took yourself out. >> Uh I was not at all miserable about that >> Uh I was not at all miserable about that >> Uh I was not at all miserable about that >> really. So there was no part of me I you >> really. So there was no part of me I you >> really. So there was no part of me I you know there was lots of pain going on in know there was lots of pain going on in know there was lots of pain going on in my world so that was there but none of my world so that was there but none of my world so that was there but none of it was connected to gosh I w I wish I it was connected to gosh I w I wish I it was connected to gosh I w I wish I could stand up in front of a crowd could stand up in front of a crowd could stand up in front of a crowd >> and um uh so uh again for me to wake up >> and um uh so uh again for me to wake up >> and um uh so uh again for me to wake up in the morning uh to be able to have a in the morning uh to be able to have a in the morning uh to be able to have a conversation to learn stuff to go conversation to learn stuff to go conversation to learn stuff to go driving with Nancy um to be able to talk driving with Nancy um to be able to talk driving with Nancy um to be able to talk with friends with friends with friends that would be a life that would have that would be a life that would have that would be a life that would have great joy for me great joy for me great joy for me >> and um >> the thought that I would not get to do >> the thought that I would not get to do something in front of a crowd if I sat something in front of a crowd if I sat something in front of a crowd if I sat and thought about it I would kind of and thought about it I would kind of and thought about it I would kind of miss that but it was not something from miss that but it was not something from miss that but it was not something from one day to the next where it was the one day to the next where it was the one day to the next where it was the source of sadness or something I felt source of sadness or something I felt source of sadness or something I felt like I was missing. How I want to get to like I was missing. How I want to get to like I was missing. How I want to get to pain in a moment, but how did you pain in a moment, but how did you pain in a moment, but how did you um control, correct, address that um control, correct, address that um control, correct, address that jealousy desire to perform?

jealousy desire to perform? jealousy desire to perform? >> Because, you know, you could listen to >> Because, you know, you could listen to >> Because, you know, you could listen to your answer and go, "Oh, okay. So, I your answer and go, "Oh, okay. So, I your answer and go, "Oh, okay. So, I just have to live another couple just have to live another couple just have to live another couple decades. It'll fade." decades. It'll fade." decades. It'll fade." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Doesn't always fade by itself. >> Doesn't always fade by itself. >> Doesn't always fade by itself. >> No. No, and I think you know [laughter] >> No. No, and I think you know [laughter] >> No. No, and I think you know [laughter] it took a long time to think about it took a long time to think about it took a long time to think about emotions and spirituality emotions and spirituality emotions and spirituality >> and to recognize >> and to recognize >> and to recognize um and you know folks both in the church um and you know folks both in the church um and you know folks both in the church world and in the world of psychology world and in the world of psychology world and in the world of psychology work a lot obviously with how do you work a lot obviously with how do you work a lot obviously with how do you deal with unwant unwanted feelings and deal with unwant unwanted feelings and deal with unwant unwanted feelings and uh language that gets used a friend uh language that gets used a friend uh language that gets used a friend pastor of mine Ranken Wilurn we were pastor of mine Ranken Wilurn we were pastor of mine Ranken Wilurn we were just talking about this the other day he just talking about this the other day he just talking about this the other day he used the little acronym Own don't used the little acronym Own don't used the little acronym Own don't enthrone and the O stands for observe. enthrone and the O stands for observe. enthrone and the O stands for observe. There's a feeling that you don't want. There's a feeling that you don't want. There's a feeling that you don't want. Anxiety is a classic case. Anxiety is a classic case. Anxiety is a classic case. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But jealousy would be another one. >> But jealousy would be another one. >> But jealousy would be another one. Observe it. Observe it. Observe it. >> And so that's where earlier in my life, >> And so that's where earlier in my life, >> And so that's where earlier in my life, one of my big problems again was I just one of my big problems again was I just one of my big problems again was I just wouldn't even admit something to myself. wouldn't even admit something to myself. wouldn't even admit something to myself. >> I'm not really jealous. >> I'm not really jealous. >> I'm not really jealous. >> Exactly. Yeah. No. And and I wouldn't >> Exactly. Yeah. No. And and I wouldn't >> Exactly. Yeah. No. And and I wouldn't even have that thought. I wasn't even even have that thought. I wasn't even even have that thought. I wasn't even aware enough, aware enough, aware enough, you know, to deny it. Yeah. because you you know, to deny it. Yeah. because you you know, to deny it. Yeah. because you know uh so um observe it. Yeah, I'm know uh so um observe it. Yeah, I'm know uh so um observe it. Yeah, I'm feeling jealous right now. Uh and then feeling jealous right now. Uh and then feeling jealous right now. Uh and then the W is welcome it the W is welcome it the W is welcome it >> which means uh not oh this is good. I >> which means uh not oh this is good. I >> which means uh not oh this is good. I want to cultivate more jealousy.

want to cultivate more jealousy. want to cultivate more jealousy. >> Um it has to do with acceptance. Yep, >> Um it has to do with acceptance. Yep, >> Um it has to do with acceptance. Yep, that's who I am. that's who I am. that's who I am. >> Uh that's the reality about me right >> Uh that's the reality about me right >> Uh that's the reality about me right now. now. now. >> Uh and then the N is to name it. And >> Uh and then the N is to name it. And >> Uh and then the N is to name it. And again, anxiety, whatever it is somebody again, anxiety, whatever it is somebody again, anxiety, whatever it is somebody is wrestling with. is wrestling with. is wrestling with. >> And uh if I'm able to name it, so to own >> And uh if I'm able to name it, so to own >> And uh if I'm able to name it, so to own it, but don't enthrone it. um uh uh it, but don't enthrone it. um uh uh it, but don't enthrone it. um uh uh don't uh act in spiteful ways towards don't uh act in spiteful ways towards don't uh act in spiteful ways towards that other person that other person that other person >> or reactively try to get up and get a >> or reactively try to get up and get a >> or reactively try to get up and get a bigger round of applause later on simply bigger round of applause later on simply bigger round of applause later on simply to accept the fact yep this is here and to accept the fact yep this is here and to accept the fact yep this is here and I I can observe it and name it and ask I I can observe it and name it and ask I I can observe it and name it and ask God for his help but it's kind of like God for his help but it's kind of like God for his help but it's kind of like watching oh there's a cloud and there it watching oh there's a cloud and there it watching oh there's a cloud and there it goes over there so it's just there goes over there so it's just there goes over there so it's just there >> and and to allow it to be there then >> and and to allow it to be there then >> and and to allow it to be there then over time with whatever that unwelcome over time with whatever that unwelcome over time with whatever that unwelcome emot emotion is anxiety or jealousy or emot emotion is anxiety or jealousy or emot emotion is anxiety or jealousy or resentment or whatever it is, it will resentment or whatever it is, it will resentment or whatever it is, it will tend to just lose its grip. tend to just lose its grip. tend to just lose its grip. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so I would say I think that it's >> And so I would say I think that it's >> And so I would say I think that it's been that way. I think that that been that way. I think that that been that way. I think that that capacity is still in me. It's a little capacity is still in me. It's a little capacity is still in me. It's a little bit like habits or addictions, those uh bit like habits or addictions, those uh bit like habits or addictions, those uh synaptic pathways are always in your synaptic pathways are always in your synaptic pathways are always in your body.

body. body. >> So I I think that is in me. That's >> So I I think that is in me. That's >> So I I think that is in me. That's always in me. But I think hope that uh always in me. But I think hope that uh always in me. But I think hope that uh it's its gravitational pull is less than it's its gravitational pull is less than it's its gravitational pull is less than what it used to be. what it used to be. what it used to be. >> Don, you've alluded to pain a number of >> Don, you've alluded to pain a number of >> Don, you've alluded to pain a number of times already. We talked about it a times already. We talked about it a times already. We talked about it a little bit, but to the extent that little bit, but to the extent that little bit, but to the extent that you're comfortable talking about it, you're comfortable talking about it, you're comfortable talking about it, what has some of the pain of life and what has some of the pain of life and what has some of the pain of life and leadership been in your life? leadership been in your life? leadership been in your life? >> Yeah. Uh it certainly played a major >> Yeah. Uh it certainly played a major >> Yeah. Uh it certainly played a major role uh uh particularly over the last role uh uh particularly over the last role uh uh particularly over the last years. Some of it um you know when my years. Some of it um you know when my years. Some of it um you know when my father passed away, our oldest daughter father passed away, our oldest daughter father passed away, our oldest daughter had uh three miscarriages in the space had uh three miscarriages in the space had uh three miscarriages in the space of a year. Um of a year. Um of a year. Um uh and then others of it involved family uh and then others of it involved family uh and then others of it involved family pain where it connects to people other pain where it connects to people other pain where it connects to people other than myself and so is not all my story than myself and so is not all my story than myself and so is not all my story tell or would not be tell or would not be tell or would not be >> helpful. >> helpful. >> helpful. >> Um but it also meant that I needed to >> Um but it also meant that I needed to >> Um but it also meant that I needed to leave the church that I was at leave the church that I was at leave the church that I was at >> uh when I that's not what I had planned >> uh when I that's not what I had planned >> uh when I that's not what I had planned on didn't want to. And so that was on didn't want to. And so that was on didn't want to. And so that was difficult. So there was uh the family difficult. So there was uh the family difficult. So there was uh the family pain was the deepest but uh ministry pain was the deepest but uh ministry pain was the deepest but uh ministry pain present there as well. Uh and it pain present there as well. Uh and it pain present there as well. Uh and it was all uh unexpected and and uh and for was all uh unexpected and and uh and for was all uh unexpected and and uh and for me quite intense.

me quite intense. me quite intense. >> John and I know we've we've had lots of >> John and I know we've we've had lots of >> John and I know we've we've had lots of conversations conversations conversations in and about that season of your life. in and about that season of your life. in and about that season of your life. What I think the the learning can be for What I think the the learning can be for What I think the the learning can be for a lot of us is when the pain is really a lot of us is when the pain is really a lot of us is when the pain is really deep, we kind of think it's over. And deep, we kind of think it's over. And deep, we kind of think it's over. And you probably went through a season where you probably went through a season where you probably went through a season where you wondered whether it was over, you wondered whether it was over, you wondered whether it was over, whether you would ever teach again. And whether you would ever teach again. And whether you would ever teach again. And I remember when uh I saw that you had I remember when uh I saw that you had I remember when uh I saw that you had released because you and I had talked released because you and I had talked released because you and I had talked through that period about, you know, through that period about, you know, through that period about, you know, what were you going to do next? And you what were you going to do next? And you what were you going to do next? And you had lots of options in front of you and had lots of options in front of you and had lots of options in front of you and you did take a good break. you did take a good break. you did take a good break. >> Yeah. Yeah. You were part of that journey. Yeah. You were part of that journey. >> Yeah. And >> Yeah. And >> Yeah. And you know, I believed you had a lot to you know, I believed you had a lot to you know, I believed you had a lot to say and do and you took your time, which say and do and you took your time, which say and do and you took your time, which I think is great. You didn't just pop up I think is great. You didn't just pop up I think is great. You didn't just pop up across the street next week and go, across the street next week and go, across the street next week and go, "Everybody over here," which we see a "Everybody over here," which we see a "Everybody over here," which we see a lot of. And you didn't just say, "All lot of. And you didn't just say, "All lot of. And you didn't just say, "All right, it's over." And, you know, surf right, it's over." And, you know, surf right, it's over." And, you know, surf or golf your way into your last days.

or golf your way into your last days. or golf your way into your last days. And when I saw, you know, I've seen And when I saw, you know, I've seen And when I saw, you know, I've seen Become New, I've seen what you're doing. Become New, I've seen what you're doing. Become New, I've seen what you're doing. I'm on your email list. I'm I'm cheering I'm on your email list. I'm I'm cheering I'm on your email list. I'm I'm cheering you on. When I saw the Formation podcast you on. When I saw the Formation podcast you on. When I saw the Formation podcast and you're only a couple of episodes in and you're only a couple of episodes in and you're only a couple of episodes in as as we film this, as as we film this, as as we film this, I'm like, "Oh, thank goodness. Thank I'm like, "Oh, thank goodness. Thank I'm like, "Oh, thank goodness. Thank goodness, John. We need this. We need goodness, John. We need this. We need goodness, John. We need this. We need you. We need you in long form dialogue you. We need you in long form dialogue you. We need you in long form dialogue with other leaders and thinkers because with other leaders and thinkers because with other leaders and thinkers because you look at the accumulated wisdom and you look at the accumulated wisdom and you look at the accumulated wisdom and knowledge over five, six decades of your knowledge over five, six decades of your knowledge over five, six decades of your life and you know that that's going to life and you know that that's going to life and you know that that's going to be such a gift to the church. How did be such a gift to the church. How did be such a gift to the church. How did you decide it wasn't over? you decide it wasn't over? you decide it wasn't over? Well, uh Well, uh Well, uh I I will tell you precisely, but it'll I I will tell you precisely, but it'll I I will tell you precisely, but it'll be a little different, I think, than be a little different, I think, than be a little different, I think, than probably where you're headed with the probably where you're headed with the probably where you're headed with the question. Sure. Sure. So, I got home question. Sure. Sure. So, I got home question. Sure. Sure. So, I got home from the last sermon that I preached, from the last sermon that I preached, from the last sermon that I preached, and it was during COVID. So, and it was during COVID. So, and it was during COVID. So, >> there was, you know, a few staff people, >> there was, you know, a few staff people, >> there was, you know, a few staff people, the crew filming, that was it. And uh the crew filming, that was it. And uh the crew filming, that was it. And uh >> uh so that was, you know, after lots and >> uh so that was, you know, after lots and >> uh so that was, you know, after lots and lots of decades of church ministry. So, lots of decades of church ministry. So, lots of decades of church ministry. So, I parked the car experiencing something I parked the car experiencing something I parked the car experiencing something in between grief and self-pity.

in between grief and self-pity. in between grief and self-pity. And uh and when I got out of the car to And uh and when I got out of the car to And uh and when I got out of the car to go into the condo where we were living go into the condo where we were living go into the condo where we were living at the time, a thought came and the at the time, a thought came and the at the time, a thought came and the thought was there is no barrier to my thought was there is no barrier to my thought was there is no barrier to my joyfully serving God today. And I've often found in times of real And I've often found in times of real great pain uh what I'll need and what great pain uh what I'll need and what great pain uh what I'll need and what will be helpful is a thought will come will be helpful is a thought will come will be helpful is a thought will come that uh is not hype. I don't have to try that uh is not hype. I don't have to try that uh is not hype. I don't have to try to force myself to believe in it. It's to force myself to believe in it. It's to force myself to believe in it. It's just true and it's solid and I it gives just true and it's solid and I it gives just true and it's solid and I it gives me a place to stand. So that thought me a place to stand. So that thought me a place to stand. So that thought there is no barrier to my joyfully there is no barrier to my joyfully there is no barrier to my joyfully serving God today serving God today serving God today because either there is a God who's because either there is a God who's because either there is a God who's running the universe and this is all his running the universe and this is all his running the universe and this is all his great project. great project. great project. Uh and if that's the case I get to be a Uh and if that's the case I get to be a Uh and if that's the case I get to be a part of that project and it can just be part of that project and it can just be part of that project and it can just be emptying the dishwasher emptying the dishwasher emptying the dishwasher um sending an email of encouragement to um sending an email of encouragement to um sending an email of encouragement to somebody cleaning up the it doesn't somebody cleaning up the it doesn't somebody cleaning up the it doesn't matter. He's not worried about how the matter. He's not worried about how the matter. He's not worried about how the project is going based on what I'm project is going based on what I'm project is going based on what I'm doing. He's not thinking, "Oh my doing. He's not thinking, "Oh my doing. He's not thinking, "Oh my goodness, this person's not working for goodness, this person's not working for goodness, this person's not working for that organization anymore. What am I that organization anymore. What am I that organization anymore. What am I going to do?" So, uh, either it is his going to do?" So, uh, either it is his going to do?" So, uh, either it is his project and nothing's changed at all. I project and nothing's changed at all. I project and nothing's changed at all. I can go right on serving it. I'll just do can go right on serving it. I'll just do can go right on serving it. I'll just do it in different ways.

it in different ways. it in different ways. Or else the world is not God's great Or else the world is not God's great Or else the world is not God's great project. In which case, I had no project. In which case, I had no project. In which case, I had no business preaching that it was all those business preaching that it was all those business preaching that it was all those years. [laughter] years. [laughter] years. [laughter] >> Either way, it remains the case. There >> Either way, it remains the case. There >> Either way, it remains the case. There is no barrier to my joyfully serving God is no barrier to my joyfully serving God is no barrier to my joyfully serving God today. So, in a very deep way, um, you today. So, in a very deep way, um, you today. So, in a very deep way, um, you know, I I ended up after about a year know, I I ended up after about a year know, I I ended up after about a year based on conversations with a couple of based on conversations with a couple of based on conversations with a couple of people, one of whom is Ron Johnson people, one of whom is Ron Johnson people, one of whom is Ron Johnson that's going to be on your show with me, that's going to be on your show with me, that's going to be on your show with me, and he talked about having something to and he talked about having something to and he talked about having something to do each day. So, eventually the thought do each day. So, eventually the thought do each day. So, eventually the thought of, oh, I could try to learn and record of, oh, I could try to learn and record of, oh, I could try to learn and record something on a video every day, and something on a video every day, and something on a video every day, and maybe it goes to 20 people. Uh, so then maybe it goes to 20 people. Uh, so then maybe it goes to 20 people. Uh, so then that happened and that led to stuff, but that happened and that led to stuff, but that happened and that led to stuff, but in a in the deepest way possible. in a in the deepest way possible. in a in the deepest way possible. doesn't matter doesn't matter doesn't matter whether it looked like that or you know whether it looked like that or you know whether it looked like that or you know I went to work at Starbucks. It just you I went to work at Starbucks. It just you I went to work at Starbucks. It just you know in the kingdom I mean uh know in the kingdom I mean uh know in the kingdom I mean uh >> uh >> uh >> uh certainly one of if not the uh most certainly one of if not the uh most certainly one of if not the uh most helpful book for people to pursue God helpful book for people to pursue God helpful book for people to pursue God written in the last 500 years.

written in the last 500 years. written in the last 500 years. practicing the presence of God was put practicing the presence of God was put practicing the presence of God was put together by a guy who worked in the together by a guy who worked in the together by a guy who worked in the kitchen kitchen kitchen and and and uh neither Carrie Newuhof nor John uh neither Carrie Newuhof nor John uh neither Carrie Newuhof nor John Ortberg would have been doing an Ortberg would have been doing an Ortberg would have been doing an interview interview interview >> with brother [clears throat] Lawrence. >> with brother [clears throat] Lawrence. >> with brother [clears throat] Lawrence. >> No, it wouldn't have. >> No, it wouldn't have. >> No, it wouldn't have. >> He would not have been sitting behind a >> He would not have been sitting behind a >> He would not have been sitting behind a mic. mic. mic. Maybe the pope would have been. Maybe Maybe the pope would have been. Maybe Maybe the pope would have been. Maybe the head of his order would have been. the head of his order would have been. the head of his order would have been. But today we don't remember who was Pope But today we don't remember who was Pope But today we don't remember who was Pope then. We don't remember who the head of then. We don't remember who the head of then. We don't remember who the head of his order was then. his order was then. his order was then. >> And grace was being poured by God into >> And grace was being poured by God into >> And grace was being poured by God into the world through that little lame, you the world through that little lame, you the world through that little lame, you know, know, know, very in pain very in pain very in pain uh potato peeler dishwasher who would uh potato peeler dishwasher who would uh potato peeler dishwasher who would just flop down to the ground when he had just flop down to the ground when he had just flop down to the ground when he had nothing else to do and praise God. So I nothing else to do and praise God. So I nothing else to do and praise God. So I could do that. You could do that. It could do that. You could do that. It could do that. You could do that. It doesn't matter. And that's where you doesn't matter. And that's where you doesn't matter. And that's where you know ultimately know ultimately know ultimately seek first the kingdom of God and his seek first the kingdom of God and his seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these other things righteousness and all these other things righteousness and all these other things including quote unquote ministry.

including quote unquote ministry. including quote unquote ministry. We can cut this part out if you don't We can cut this part out if you don't We can cut this part out if you don't want to talk about it. But the other want to talk about it. But the other want to talk about it. But the other thing you did that I thought was so thing you did that I thought was so thing you did that I thought was so humble and instructive is you put a humble and instructive is you put a humble and instructive is you put a small council together of which Tony and small council together of which Tony and small council together of which Tony and I had the privilege of being part of and I had the privilege of being part of and I had the privilege of being part of and we met because it was during lockdown we met because it was during lockdown we met because it was during lockdown >> over Zoom and we were geographically >> over Zoom and we were geographically >> over Zoom and we were geographically diverse. diverse. diverse. Can you tell us a little bit about why Can you tell us a little bit about why Can you tell us a little bit about why you did that and what the purpose of you did that and what the purpose of you did that and what the purpose of that was because it was such a mean I that was because it was such a mean I that was because it was such a mean I don't think there was a single person on don't think there was a single person on don't think there was a single person on that tiny council that tiny council that tiny council that for whom that was not a meaningful that for whom that was not a meaningful that for whom that was not a meaningful experience and I've heard you say that experience and I've heard you say that experience and I've heard you say that exact phrase exact phrase exact phrase >> on some of the worst days of your life. >> on some of the worst days of your life. >> on some of the worst days of your life. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. So, uh when I left >> Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. So, uh when I left >> Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. So, uh when I left the last job that I'd had and we were the last job that I'd had and we were the last job that I'd had and we were just going through a time of pain just going through a time of pain just going through a time of pain actually it was Gordon McDonald actually it was Gordon McDonald actually it was Gordon McDonald >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. uh who uh is one of the folks that I uh who uh is one of the folks that I uh who uh is one of the folks that I would talk to through that season would talk to through that season would talk to through that season >> and just say, "Here's what I'm >> and just say, "Here's what I'm >> and just say, "Here's what I'm experiencing. Here's what I'm experiencing. Here's what I'm experiencing. Here's what I'm wondering." Uh was a very helpful wisdom wondering." Uh was a very helpful wisdom wondering." Uh was a very helpful wisdom figure.

figure. figure. >> What did Gordon say to you that was so >> What did Gordon say to you that was so >> What did Gordon say to you that was so helpful? Well, one of the things he said helpful? Well, one of the things he said helpful? Well, one of the things he said then was uh about how when he and Gail then was uh about how when he and Gail then was uh about how when he and Gail were going through a difficult time and were going through a difficult time and were going through a difficult time and he didn't know what the [clears throat] he didn't know what the [clears throat] he didn't know what the [clears throat] future would look like, future would look like, future would look like, they had put together a group of folks they had put together a group of folks they had put together a group of folks to meet with them, to talk with them, to to meet with them, to talk with them, to to meet with them, to talk with them, to ask them questions, to support them, ask them questions, to support them, ask them questions, to support them, encourage them, bring accountability. encourage them, bring accountability. encourage them, bring accountability. So, that's really for me where the idea So, that's really for me where the idea So, that's really for me where the idea of, oh, we could do that. We could get a of, oh, we could do that. We could get a of, oh, we could do that. We could get a group of people and ask them if they group of people and ask them if they group of people and ask them if they would be willing to kind of walk would be willing to kind of walk would be willing to kind of walk alongside of us and just see um alongside of us and just see um alongside of us and just see um spiritually, emotionally, physically, uh spiritually, emotionally, physically, uh spiritually, emotionally, physically, uh uh health-wise, how are you guys doing, uh health-wise, how are you guys doing, uh health-wise, how are you guys doing, accountability, encouragement, love accountability, encouragement, love accountability, encouragement, love sport. So, it was really that sport. So, it was really that sport. So, it was really that conversation with Gordon McDonald and conversation with Gordon McDonald and conversation with Gordon McDonald and his telling me about his journey and how his telling me about his journey and how his telling me about his journey and how much that community I think they called much that community I think they called much that community I think they called it their band of angels or something it their band of angels or something it their band of angels or something like that like that like that >> uh had been helpful to them that brought >> uh had been helpful to them that brought >> uh had been helpful to them that brought the idea and I talked with Nancy about the idea and I talked with Nancy about the idea and I talked with Nancy about it and she said yeah that would be great it and she said yeah that would be great it and she said yeah that would be great and then we thought and prayed about who and then we thought and prayed about who and then we thought and prayed about who would be good with that and uh that would be good with that and uh that would be good with that and uh that little group including you and Tony little group including you and Tony little group including you and Tony emerged and yeah that was uh will always emerged and yeah that was uh will always emerged and yeah that was uh will always be will always be you will have always be will always be you will have always be will always be you will have always been uh a very deep part of our journey.

been uh a very deep part of our journey. been uh a very deep part of our journey. >> The other part that really amazed me was >> The other part that really amazed me was >> The other part that really amazed me was it was not just counsel, support, it was not just counsel, support, it was not just counsel, support, encouragement, and prayer. It was also encouragement, and prayer. It was also encouragement, and prayer. It was also submission. submission. submission. You asked You asked You asked >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> that band of angels, >> that band of angels, >> that band of angels, >> what do you think about this next step? >> what do you think about this next step? >> what do you think about this next step? What do you think about that next step? What do you think about that next step? What do you think about that next step? >> And >> And >> And that was so moving to me because Gordon that was so moving to me because Gordon that was so moving to me because Gordon did the same thing. I think he writes did the same thing. I think he writes did the same thing. I think he writes about it in Rebuilding Your Broken about it in Rebuilding Your Broken about it in Rebuilding Your Broken World, a book I'm going to reread this World, a book I'm going to reread this World, a book I'm going to reread this summer, summer, summer, >> which is one of the best books that you >> which is one of the best books that you >> which is one of the best books that you could ever write, read coming out of a a could ever write, read coming out of a a could ever write, read coming out of a a life crisis that for a season took him life crisis that for a season took him life crisis that for a season took him out of ministry, rightly so. But he out of ministry, rightly so. But he out of ministry, rightly so. But he submitted himself to the authority of submitted himself to the authority of submitted himself to the authority of others, which almost nobody did. And I others, which almost nobody did. And I others, which almost nobody did. And I saw you and Nancy do that. And I was saw you and Nancy do that. And I was saw you and Nancy do that. And I was like, what authority do I have over you? like, what authority do I have over you? like, what authority do I have over you? But it was a it was a council. You took your time to figure out what You took your time to figure out what was next. was next. was next. What did you learn in that season of What did you learn in that season of What did you learn in that season of waiting?

Uh Uh yeah, it it was uh again because the yeah, it it was uh again because the yeah, it it was uh again because the journey was such a personal one. journey was such a personal one. journey was such a personal one. >> Um church work quote unquote was just >> Um church work quote unquote was just >> Um church work quote unquote was just way back in the queue. way back in the queue. way back in the queue. >> Yeah. So if everything had been >> Yeah. So if everything had been >> Yeah. So if everything had been different, different, different, >> uh it may well be that that would have >> uh it may well be that that would have >> uh it may well be that that would have been much closer to the front of the been much closer to the front of the been much closer to the front of the line. So I would have had a much more of line. So I would have had a much more of line. So I would have had a much more of an emotional attachment to it and uh an an emotional attachment to it and uh an an emotional attachment to it and uh an eagerness to get back to it uh or eagerness to get back to it uh or eagerness to get back to it uh or concern for it might have weighed much concern for it might have weighed much concern for it might have weighed much more heavily on me. But [clears throat] more heavily on me. But [clears throat] more heavily on me. But [clears throat] just given the nature of the journey, uh just given the nature of the journey, uh just given the nature of the journey, uh it was just quite a bit down the list of it was just quite a bit down the list of it was just quite a bit down the list of emotional priorities. And so my biggest emotional priorities. And so my biggest emotional priorities. And so my biggest concern by far was just I don't want to concern by far was just I don't want to concern by far was just I don't want to make a wrong decision that triggers more make a wrong decision that triggers more make a wrong decision that triggers more pain. And um so I I think it was I think pain. And um so I I think it was I think pain. And um so I I think it was I think the learning there was just I was the learning there was just I was the learning there was just I was grateful for wisdom that can come from grateful for wisdom that can come from grateful for wisdom that can come from talking with other people.

talking with other people. talking with other people. >> Ron Johnson's advice which you shared >> Ron Johnson's advice which you shared >> Ron Johnson's advice which you shared with me earlier today was really helpful with me earlier today was really helpful with me earlier today was really helpful and I think it's such a good and I think it's such a good and I think it's such a good >> thought for those of us at any stage of >> thought for those of us at any stage of >> thought for those of us at any stage of life but particularly when you move into life but particularly when you move into life but particularly when you move into your 60s as you and I have. What was his your 60s as you and I have. What was his your 60s as you and I have. What was his advice to you about advice to you about advice to you about >> Well, I mentioned two people. Um Ron was >> Well, I mentioned two people. Um Ron was >> Well, I mentioned two people. Um Ron was one uh and and what I got from Ron was one uh and and what I got from Ron was one uh and and what I got from Ron was he was working at a very intense uh role he was working at a very intense uh role he was working at a very intense uh role at that point. You'll talk with him more at that point. You'll talk with him more at that point. You'll talk with him more about that. about that. about that. >> But he would meet with groups of people >> But he would meet with groups of people >> But he would meet with groups of people every day and have a conversation with every day and have a conversation with every day and have a conversation with kind of have a message for folks. So kind of have a message for folks. So kind of have a message for folks. So that like uh I need to find a daily that like uh I need to find a daily that like uh I need to find a daily rhythm of doing something and and from rhythm of doing something and and from rhythm of doing something and and from Ron that notion of a daily rhythm of Ron that notion of a daily rhythm of Ron that notion of a daily rhythm of work is what I gained there. Then I had work is what I gained there. Then I had work is what I gained there. Then I had another friend, Sam, 92 years old, another friend, Sam, 92 years old, another friend, Sam, 92 years old, almost 92. almost 92. almost 92. >> Um, and uh, what Sam said to me was, >> Um, and uh, what Sam said to me was, >> Um, and uh, what Sam said to me was, "Don't neglect your craft." "Don't neglect your craft." "Don't neglect your craft." >> Everybody has a craft, a sense of >> Everybody has a craft, a sense of >> Everybody has a craft, a sense of calling, and if you don't keep honing calling, and if you don't keep honing calling, and if you don't keep honing it, it erodess real fast. And it, it erodess real fast. And it, it erodess real fast. And >> that's right, that was Sam.

>> that's right, that was Sam. >> that's right, that was Sam. >> So, uh, uh, whatever whatever happens, >> So, uh, uh, whatever whatever happens, >> So, uh, uh, whatever whatever happens, whatever the future holds, whatever you whatever the future holds, whatever you whatever the future holds, whatever you think that you will do or you won't do, think that you will do or you won't do, think that you will do or you won't do, um, you have to keep honing it and um, you have to keep honing it and um, you have to keep honing it and developing it. developing it. developing it. um or else uh you will begin to lose it. um or else uh you will begin to lose it. um or else uh you will begin to lose it. And so um that was a very helpful word And so um that was a very helpful word And so um that was a very helpful word for me. So I thought I I want to I I for me. So I thought I I want to I I for me. So I thought I I want to I I don't know what it means but I just want don't know what it means but I just want don't know what it means but I just want to try to keep learning and growing and to try to keep learning and growing and to try to keep learning and growing and cultivating it. cultivating it. cultivating it. >> What I admire about first of all great >> What I admire about first of all great >> What I admire about first of all great advice. Secondly, what I admired about advice. Secondly, what I admired about advice. Secondly, what I admired about what you did with it is you didn't build what you did with it is you didn't build what you did with it is you didn't build a platform hoping people would show up. a platform hoping people would show up. a platform hoping people would show up. If I remember it was in one of those If I remember it was in one of those If I remember it was in one of those conversations that you were like I don't conversations that you were like I don't conversations that you were like I don't know what to do. I feel like I want to know what to do. I feel like I want to know what to do. I feel like I want to contribute. I want to hone my craft, but contribute. I want to hone my craft, but contribute. I want to hone my craft, but like this isn't the time to publish a like this isn't the time to publish a like this isn't the time to publish a book. I'm not ready. Uh this isn't a book. I'm not ready. Uh this isn't a book. I'm not ready. Uh this isn't a time to start something new. And I time to start something new. And I time to start something new. And I believe what we decided in that you believe what we decided in that you believe what we decided in that you decided in that conversation was you decided in that conversation was you decided in that conversation was you were just going to write some stuff were just going to write some stuff were just going to write some stuff every day as though you had a quote job every day as though you had a quote job every day as though you had a quote job >> and you were going to squirrel it away >> and you were going to squirrel it away >> and you were going to squirrel it away for another day. And you did that for a for another day. And you did that for a for another day. And you did that for a while even though there was no audience, while even though there was no audience, while even though there was no audience, no contract, no whatever.

no contract, no whatever. no contract, no whatever. >> Yeah. Yeah, at that point I wasn't even >> Yeah. Yeah, at that point I wasn't even >> Yeah. Yeah, at that point I wasn't even talking into a telephone. I was just uh talking into a telephone. I was just uh talking into a telephone. I was just uh I remember one of the books that I read I remember one of the books that I read I remember one of the books that I read that year, Elellanar Stumps, that year, Elellanar Stumps, that year, Elellanar Stumps, philosopher, who wrote this very massive philosopher, who wrote this very massive philosopher, who wrote this very massive tome called Wandering in Darkness. tome called Wandering in Darkness. tome called Wandering in Darkness. And uh that remains one of the most And uh that remains one of the most And uh that remains one of the most amazing and formative books that I have amazing and formative books that I have amazing and formative books that I have ever read. But walking through that and ever read. But walking through that and ever read. But walking through that and then thinking, how would I teach this? then thinking, how would I teach this? then thinking, how would I teach this? How would I teach this? But without How would I teach this? But without How would I teach this? But without doing anything with it. doing anything with it. doing anything with it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. H what did that do for you in that >> Yeah. H what did that do for you in that >> Yeah. H what did that do for you in that season where there was no audience? season where there was no audience? season where there was no audience? >> It's kind of like painters have to >> It's kind of like painters have to >> It's kind of like painters have to paint, paint, paint, >> musicians have to write. >> musicians have to write. >> musicians have to write. >> Yeah. Uh >> Yeah. Uh >> Yeah. Uh I think it helped I think it helped I think it helped me have a sense that I could try to do me have a sense that I could try to do me have a sense that I could try to do this and then offer it as a gift to God this and then offer it as a gift to God this and then offer it as a gift to God because nobody else was going to see it. because nobody else was going to see it. because nobody else was going to see it. >> Wow. So it was kind of um gratuitous in >> Wow. So it was kind of um gratuitous in >> Wow. So it was kind of um gratuitous in a good way and it released me from any of the wrong kind of questions. Is this of the wrong kind of questions. Is this going to sell? Is it going to be going to sell? Is it going to be going to sell? Is it going to be popular? How many views will it get? How popular? How many views will it get? How popular? How many views will it get? How many likes? How many you know and and uh many likes? How many you know and and uh many likes? How many you know and and uh again metrics of effectiveness are not again metrics of effectiveness are not again metrics of effectiveness are not at all all bad. Uh feedback is at all all bad. Uh feedback is at all all bad. Uh feedback is important. It's it's good for guidance, important. It's it's good for guidance, important. It's it's good for guidance, bad for fuel, bad for fuel, bad for fuel, but there is a um uh

but there is a um uh but there is a um uh there's a a gift that comes with freedom there's a a gift that comes with freedom there's a a gift that comes with freedom from it that I think in that season I from it that I think in that season I from it that I think in that season I got that I'm grateful for. The other got that I'm grateful for. The other got that I'm grateful for. The other thing I think because we live in such a thing I think because we live in such a thing I think because we live in such a platform building conference where platform building conference where platform building conference where honestly John you you you could have honestly John you you you could have honestly John you you you could have just reached out someone signed a just reached out someone signed a just reached out someone signed a contract you know boom I'm down for contract you know boom I'm down for contract you know boom I'm down for three more books or whatever three more books or whatever three more books or whatever but there was real work of spiritual but there was real work of spiritual but there was real work of spiritual formation going on in those years formation going on in those years formation going on in those years what did you most hear from God in those what did you most hear from God in those what did you most hear from God in those years the most painful years as you were years the most painful years as you were years the most painful years as you were in between in that kind of liinal space in between in that kind of liinal space in between in that kind of liinal space between what was and what would slowly between what was and what would slowly between what was and what would slowly emerge. emerge. emerge. >> Yeah. Uh you know, Nancy asked me to uh >> Yeah. Uh you know, Nancy asked me to uh >> Yeah. Uh you know, Nancy asked me to uh uh uh uh talk with a few pastors because it was talk with a few pastors because it was talk with a few pastors because it was during COVID about during COVID about during COVID about uh uh uh lessons from those years. And it took me lessons from those years. And it took me lessons from those years. And it took me about five minutes. The quickest talk about five minutes. The quickest talk about five minutes. The quickest talk that I ever wrote that I ever wrote that I ever wrote >> really. >> really. >> really. >> And uh it it was it just simply >> And uh it it was it just simply >> And uh it it was it just simply consisted of a series of thoughts like consisted of a series of thoughts like consisted of a series of thoughts like there is no barrier to my joyfully there is no barrier to my joyfully there is no barrier to my joyfully serving God today.

serving God today. serving God today. Or another one was when it got Or another one was when it got Or another one was when it got increasingly increasingly increasingly uh painful that I couldn't fix stuff. circumstances being okay is not an circumstances being okay is not an adequate foundation for life. adequate foundation for life. adequate foundation for life. >> Say more about that one. >> Say more about that one. >> Say more about that one. >> Uh I I had always felt like >> Uh I I had always felt like >> Uh I I had always felt like things had to be okay. If things were things had to be okay. If things were things had to be okay. If things were badly broken, I needed to find a way to badly broken, I needed to find a way to badly broken, I needed to find a way to fix them and then we could move on with fix them and then we could move on with fix them and then we could move on with life. And then I ended up in a situation life. And then I ended up in a situation life. And then I ended up in a situation where I realized uh I can't fix it and where I realized uh I can't fix it and where I realized uh I can't fix it and this will never be fixed. this will never be fixed. this will never be fixed. But I still had to live. I had to wake But I still had to live. I had to wake But I still had to live. I had to wake up every morning and live. Wow. up every morning and live. Wow. up every morning and live. Wow. >> It was like, but this is this is >> It was like, but this is this is >> It was like, but this is this is intolerable. This is awful. And I got to intolerable. This is awful. And I got to intolerable. This is awful. And I got to live today. And and so eventually the live today. And and so eventually the live today. And and so eventually the thought that came was thought that came was thought that came was circumstances being okay is not an circumstances being okay is not an circumstances being okay is not an adequate foundation for life. adequate foundation for life. adequate foundation for life. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> And of course, millions and billions of >> And of course, millions and billions of >> And of course, millions and billions of people have discovered that way before people have discovered that way before people have discovered that way before me that have had lots of pain. My life, me that have had lots of pain. My life, me that have had lots of pain. My life, I would say, was rely relatively, I would say, was rely relatively, I would say, was rely relatively, you know, much privileged.

you know, much privileged. you know, much privileged. Uh Uh Uh >> and uh so it took me longer to come to >> and uh so it took me longer to come to >> and uh so it took me longer to come to it but then to realize oh okay so I can it but then to realize oh okay so I can it but then to realize oh okay so I can be in a place where circumstances are be in a place where circumstances are be in a place where circumstances are not okay they will never be okay and I not okay they will never be okay and I not okay they will never be okay and I can find a place to stand can find a place to stand can find a place to stand >> and uh so um yeah just a series of >> and uh so um yeah just a series of >> and uh so um yeah just a series of statements thoughts that statements thoughts that statements thoughts that you know when you sit with that there's you know when you sit with that there's you know when you sit with that there's no barrier to my joyfully serving God no barrier to my joyfully serving God no barrier to my joyfully serving God circumstance of course of course of circumstance of course of course of circumstance of course of course of course that must be true But uh in the course that must be true But uh in the course that must be true But uh in the moment of experience, it's got a weight moment of experience, it's got a weight moment of experience, it's got a weight that it doesn't have in the abstract. that it doesn't have in the abstract. that it doesn't have in the abstract. >> You know, one of the things that makes >> You know, one of the things that makes >> You know, one of the things that makes me so grateful, we all come through me so grateful, we all come through me so grateful, we all come through really difficult seasons and so much of really difficult seasons and so much of really difficult seasons and so much of the pain was personal and not subject. the pain was personal and not subject. the pain was personal and not subject. There was no scandal or anything like There was no scandal or anything like There was no scandal or anything like that. It was just deep, deep, deep that. It was just deep, deep, deep that. It was just deep, deep, deep circumstances. circumstances. circumstances. And most of us have had some version of And most of us have had some version of And most of us have had some version of that in our lives. that in our lives. that in our lives. um [clears throat] we didn't lose what um [clears throat] we didn't lose what um [clears throat] we didn't lose what God has built in you over decades and God has built in you over decades and God has built in you over decades and decades. And when I saw you step forward decades. And when I saw you step forward decades. And when I saw you step forward years later with the podcast and you years later with the podcast and you years later with the podcast and you know with what become new has become I'm know with what become new has become I'm know with what become new has become I'm like oh this is going to be wonderful like oh this is going to be wonderful like oh this is going to be wonderful like another decade or two of John where like another decade or two of John where like another decade or two of John where you can explore some of the deep you can explore some of the deep you can explore some of the deep questions and what I love about the next questions and what I love about the next questions and what I love about the next generation is a lot of Gen Z and younger generation is a lot of Gen Z and younger generation is a lot of Gen Z and younger leaders really crave I mean I think leaders really crave I mean I think leaders really crave I mean I think we're doing that tonight or tomorrow we're doing that tonight or tomorrow we're doing that tonight or tomorrow Sage on the stage right like just people

Sage on the stage right like just people Sage on the stage right like just people who have had a few more laps around the who have had a few more laps around the who have had a few more laps around the that are around like you read Dallas that are around like you read Dallas that are around like you read Dallas Willard every day. I read a bit of Tim Willard every day. I read a bit of Tim Willard every day. I read a bit of Tim Keller every day. Gosh, what we wouldn't Keller every day. Gosh, what we wouldn't Keller every day. Gosh, what we wouldn't do to have people like that alive and do to have people like that alive and do to have people like that alive and and serving in the church today and not and serving in the church today and not and serving in the church today and not necessarily commenting. Neither was a necessarily commenting. Neither was a necessarily commenting. Neither was a cultural commentator, but there were cultural commentator, but there were cultural commentator, but there were people who thought through the cultural people who thought through the cultural people who thought through the cultural moment we were in and tethered it to moment we were in and tethered it to moment we were in and tethered it to eternal truths. And now we get that in eternal truths. And now we get that in eternal truths. And now we get that in you. And I just want you to know as a you. And I just want you to know as a you. And I just want you to know as a friend and brother what joy that gives friend and brother what joy that gives friend and brother what joy that gives me. And I know I'm not alone in that. me. And I know I'm not alone in that. me. And I know I'm not alone in that. And I know how you have gotten around a And I know how you have gotten around a And I know how you have gotten around a next generation of leaders and quietly next generation of leaders and quietly next generation of leaders and quietly met with them for coffee and uh to met with them for coffee and uh to met with them for coffee and uh to listen and have a shoulder to cry on and listen and have a shoulder to cry on and listen and have a shoulder to cry on and a conversation, a little bit of wisdom a conversation, a little bit of wisdom a conversation, a little bit of wisdom to impart to impart to impart when and I'm trying to form a question when and I'm trying to form a question when and I'm trying to form a question here. This is more of an affirmation and here. This is more of an affirmation and here. This is more of an affirmation and encouragement than a question, John. But encouragement than a question, John. But encouragement than a question, John. But I just want you to know, first of all, I just want you to know, first of all, I just want you to know, first of all, thank you for hanging in there.

thank you for hanging in there. thank you for hanging in there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And secondly, when you think about >> And secondly, when you think about >> And secondly, when you think about what's ahead, what's ahead, what's ahead, um, um, um, what words do you think our world most what words do you think our world most what words do you think our world most needs to hear? I think that's the needs to hear? I think that's the needs to hear? I think that's the question underneath. What? Cuz we're in question underneath. What? Cuz we're in question underneath. What? Cuz we're in such a crazy cultural moment on the, you such a crazy cultural moment on the, you such a crazy cultural moment on the, you know, in a new era of AI. know, in a new era of AI. know, in a new era of AI. Haven't been more fractured as a culture Haven't been more fractured as a culture Haven't been more fractured as a culture in our lifetime. The news seems surreal in our lifetime. The news seems surreal in our lifetime. The news seems surreal on an almost daily basis. And every day on an almost daily basis. And every day on an almost daily basis. And every day there's some bomb or landmine going off there's some bomb or landmine going off there's some bomb or landmine going off somewhere politically, culturally, somewhere politically, culturally, somewhere politically, culturally, morally, etc., etc. What What word do morally, etc., etc. What What word do morally, etc., etc. What What word do you think our world most needs? you think our world most needs? you think our world most needs? >> Uh, that one is easy. Jesus. >> Uh, that one is easy. Jesus. >> Uh, that one is easy. Jesus. >> Jesus. uh yeah uh you know the answer is >> Jesus. uh yeah uh you know the answer is >> Jesus. uh yeah uh you know the answer is always Jesus if you're in church but but always Jesus if you're in church but but always Jesus if you're in church but but it is just simply true uh and when you it is just simply true uh and when you it is just simply true uh and when you go through something deep you just go through something deep you just go through something deep you just realize um there [laughter] realize um there [laughter] realize um there [laughter] got stripped away right got stripped away right got stripped away right >> I think about Peter when when Jesus >> I think about Peter when when Jesus >> I think about Peter when when Jesus starts teaching hard things and people starts teaching hard things and people starts teaching hard things and people stop following him and he says to the stop following him and he says to the stop following him and he says to the disciples now are you going to leave me disciples now are you going to leave me disciples now are you going to leave me also and Peter says where else would we also and Peter says where else would we also and Peter says where else would we go yeah go yeah go yeah >> you alone have the words of life and so >> you alone have the words of life and so >> you alone have the words of life and so for me when I think about it's like for me when I think about it's like for me when I think about it's like Well, uh, I have lots of questions and Well, uh, I have lots of questions and Well, uh, I have lots of questions and lots of doubts, but one thing I don't lots of doubts, but one thing I don't lots of doubts, but one thing I don't doubt is there's just no good doubt is there's just no good doubt is there's just no good alternative to Jesus as a foundation for alternative to Jesus as a foundation for alternative to Jesus as a foundation for life. And uh, as Dallas used to say life. And uh, as Dallas used to say life. And uh, as Dallas used to say about him, he is in the church, but he

about him, he is in the church, but he about him, he is in the church, but he is not boxed in by the church. And Jesus is not boxed in by the church. And Jesus is not boxed in by the church. And Jesus comes shining through comes shining through comes shining through in the most unlikely places, in the in the most unlikely places, in the in the most unlikely places, in the strangest words or stories or strangest words or stories or strangest words or stories or conversations or cultures or moments in conversations or cultures or moments in conversations or cultures or moments in ways that none of us can orchestrate. ways that none of us can orchestrate. ways that none of us can orchestrate. He just comes shining through. And if He just comes shining through. And if He just comes shining through. And if this is God's project, of course he this is God's project, of course he this is God's project, of course he does. And of course he will. And so does. And of course he will. And so does. And of course he will. And so mostly we simply have to keep enduring mostly we simply have to keep enduring mostly we simply have to keep enduring and looking for him and saying no it's and looking for him and saying no it's and looking for him and saying no it's him. You just keep looking at him. And him. You just keep looking at him. And him. You just keep looking at him. And then when people go back and they look then when people go back and they look then when people go back and they look at him and they study him and they read at him and they study him and they read at him and they study him and they read those words truths that are deeper than those words truths that are deeper than those words truths that are deeper than what you and I can name will keep what you and I can name will keep what you and I can name will keep emerging as they pop out through people emerging as they pop out through people emerging as they pop out through people like Tim Keller or Dallas Willard and like Tim Keller or Dallas Willard and like Tim Keller or Dallas Willard and the world will rediscover and fall in the world will rediscover and fall in the world will rediscover and fall in love with him once again. And it's love with him once again. And it's love with him once again. And it's happened for 2,000 years and it will happened for 2,000 years and it will happened for 2,000 years and it will keep happening. keep happening. keep happening. When you think about all of Dallas's When you think about all of Dallas's When you think about all of Dallas's teaching and you have his unpublished teaching and you have his unpublished teaching and you have his unpublished papers and so much that you know the eye papers and so much that you know the eye papers and so much that you know the eye hasn't seen, what are some of his hasn't seen, what are some of his hasn't seen, what are some of his teachings that other than Jesus um speak teachings that other than Jesus um speak teachings that other than Jesus um speak most to you right now?

most to you right now? most to you right now? >> Well, uh the the book of his that >> Well, uh the the book of his that >> Well, uh the the book of his that impacted me the most was The Spirit of impacted me the most was The Spirit of impacted me the most was The Spirit of the Disciplines. the Disciplines. the Disciplines. >> And I read that >> And I read that >> And I read that gosh 35 years ago. gosh 35 years ago. gosh 35 years ago. >> Yeah. And it came at a time when I was >> Yeah. And it came at a time when I was >> Yeah. And it came at a time when I was really frustrated in my own lack of really frustrated in my own lack of really frustrated in my own lack of growth and like I don't know how to grow growth and like I don't know how to grow growth and like I don't know how to grow and I got a PhD in clinical psychology and I got a PhD in clinical psychology and I got a PhD in clinical psychology and an MD from Fuller Seminary. I don't and an MD from Fuller Seminary. I don't and an MD from Fuller Seminary. I don't know what to do. I know I'm supposed to know what to do. I know I'm supposed to know what to do. I know I'm supposed to have a quiet time. I'm doesn't seem to have a quiet time. I'm doesn't seem to have a quiet time. I'm doesn't seem to be changing me in deeper ways. And uh so be changing me in deeper ways. And uh so be changing me in deeper ways. And uh so the thesis statement of that book, he the thesis statement of that book, he the thesis statement of that book, he writes, "My thesis is um that authentic writes, "My thesis is um that authentic writes, "My thesis is um that authentic transformation is possible if we are transformation is possible if we are transformation is possible if we are willing to arrange our lives around the willing to arrange our lives around the willing to arrange our lives around the practices and rhythms that Jesus himself practices and rhythms that Jesus himself practices and rhythms that Jesus himself engaged in to be constantly at home with engaged in to be constantly at home with engaged in to be constantly at home with and receiving power from his heavenly and receiving power from his heavenly and receiving power from his heavenly father." father." father." And so that that thought just arrested And so that that thought just arrested And so that that thought just arrested me. And uh so continuing to unpack me. And uh so continuing to unpack me. And uh so continuing to unpack what does authentic transformation look what does authentic transformation look what does authentic transformation look like?

like? like? Dallas will have lots to say about that Dallas will have lots to say about that Dallas will have lots to say about that and what are those rhythms and practices and what are those rhythms and practices and what are those rhythms and practices and what does it look like to be at home and what does it look like to be at home and what does it look like to be at home with and receiving power from the with and receiving power from the with and receiving power from the heavenly father. It's kind of all just heavenly father. It's kind of all just heavenly father. It's kind of all just in that single sentence. in that single sentence. in that single sentence. >> So that's probably our next >> So that's probably our next >> So that's probably our next conversation. conversation. conversation. But when you think about the But when you think about the But when you think about the disciplines, disciplines, disciplines, what's one or two that because you had what's one or two that because you had what's one or two that because you had three and a half decades three and a half decades three and a half decades >> with that thought and that reality? Uh, >> with that thought and that reality? Uh, >> with that thought and that reality? Uh, and you talk about the 6:50 a.m. phone and you talk about the 6:50 a.m. phone and you talk about the 6:50 a.m. phone call. You talk about being a morning call. You talk about being a morning call. You talk about being a morning person. person. person. What's one or two of the disciplines What's one or two of the disciplines What's one or two of the disciplines that speaks to you most at this season that speaks to you most at this season that speaks to you most at this season of life? of life? of life? >> Yeah, I a quick word around this. You >> Yeah, I a quick word around this. You >> Yeah, I a quick word around this. You know, I've been thinking a lot about the know, I've been thinking a lot about the know, I've been thinking a lot about the 12 steps and those are, 12 steps and those are, 12 steps and those are, >> you know, they're not rocket science. >> you know, they're not rocket science. >> you know, they're not rocket science. They're a way of formulating the They're a way of formulating the They're a way of formulating the disciplines that can be accessible for disciplines that can be accessible for disciplines that can be accessible for folks. folks. folks. >> People will often ask which step is the >> People will often ask which step is the >> People will often ask which step is the most important and the classic response most important and the classic response most important and the classic response is which spoke in a wheel is the most is which spoke in a wheel is the most is which spoke in a wheel is the most important. important. important. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So it's it's uh what matters is finding >> So it's it's uh what matters is finding >> So it's it's uh what matters is finding a way of life where the whole way of a way of life where the whole way of a way of life where the whole way of life um is lifegiving and power life um is lifegiving and power life um is lifegiving and power producing and transformational. Um but I producing and transformational. Um but I producing and transformational. Um but I will say uh in this season um will say uh in this season um will say uh in this season um fellowship the discipline of fellowship fellowship the discipline of fellowship fellowship the discipline of fellowship practicing those practices with other practicing those practices with other practicing those practices with other believers. So like confession with my believers. So like confession with my believers. So like confession with my friend Rick and gathering together with friend Rick and gathering together with friend Rick and gathering together with friends um being deeply known friends um being deeply known friends um being deeply known >> in this season of life. That one is one >> in this season of life. That one is one >> in this season of life. That one is one that I'm real grateful for. that I'm real grateful for. that I'm real grateful for. >> Well and we see some of that like I know >> Well and we see some of that like I know >> Well and we see some of that like I know you've met with John Mark Comr. You meet you've met with John Mark Comr. You meet you've met with John Mark Comr. You meet with Tyler Stton and we could name with Tyler Stton and we could name with Tyler Stton and we could name others as well. But you almost see that others as well. But you almost see that others as well. But you almost see that neo monasticism that that life ordered neo monasticism that that life ordered neo monasticism that that life ordered around disciplines around disciplines around disciplines becoming something very attractive to becoming something very attractive to becoming something very attractive to new generations new generations new generations >> and see that in Gen Z as well. So >> and see that in Gen Z as well. So >> and see that in Gen Z as well. So >> John man, >> John man, >> John man, >> thank you.

>> thank you. >> thank you. >> I don't know why I prepared any >> I don't know why I prepared any >> I don't know why I prepared any questions. [laughter] questions. [laughter] questions. [laughter] Didn't talk about anything. Didn't talk about anything. Didn't talk about anything. Um, anything left on your heart you want Um, anything left on your heart you want Um, anything left on your heart you want to share today? Just thank you for being to share today? Just thank you for being to share today? Just thank you for being so open and being so transparent. I so open and being so transparent. I so open and being so transparent. I think one of the greatest we gifts we think one of the greatest we gifts we think one of the greatest we gifts we have as we get older and and live more have as we get older and and live more have as we get older and and live more years is to bring our real full years is to bring our real full years is to bring our real full authentic self. No veneers, authentic self. No veneers, authentic self. No veneers, just who we really are. Broken, bruised, just who we really are. Broken, bruised, just who we really are. Broken, bruised, battered, but hopeful. battered, but hopeful. battered, but hopeful. And that is such a a gift to the church. And that is such a a gift to the church. And that is such a a gift to the church. And thank you. And thank you. And thank you. >> Thank you for showing up. >> Thank you for showing up. >> Thank you for showing up. >> Thank you. My pleasure. >> Thank you. My pleasure. >> Thank you. My pleasure. >> Again. >> Again. >> Again. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Again and again and again, my friend. >> Again and again and again, my friend. >> Again and again and again, my friend. >> Thanks, Gary. >> Thanks, Gary. >> Thanks, Gary. >> Well, that was rich and it made me wish >> Well, that was rich and it made me wish >> Well, that was rich and it made me wish I had a film crew there for a couple of I had a film crew there for a couple of I had a film crew there for a couple of days just to capture hours and hours of days just to capture hours and hours of days just to capture hours and hours of conversation. Again, young leaders, conversation. Again, young leaders, conversation. Again, young leaders, that's what happens when you do your that's what happens when you do your that's what happens when you do your homework, you read books, and you stay homework, you read books, and you stay homework, you read books, and you stay faithful, and you let it compound year faithful, and you let it compound year faithful, and you let it compound year after year, decade after decade. If you after year, decade after decade. If you after year, decade after decade. If you do want more, we have it all in the show do want more, we have it all in the show do want more, we have it all in the show notes, including links to everything we notes, including links to everything we notes, including links to everything we talked about. You can get that by talked about. You can get that by talked about. You can get that by joining the Art of Leadership Academy joining the Art of Leadership Academy joining the Art of Leadership Academy for free. That's where we house for free. That's where we house for free. That's where we house everything. You can go to the art of everything. You can go to the art of everything. You can go to the art of leadershipacademy.com, leadershipacademy.com, leadershipacademy.com, set up a free account, join 22,000 other set up a free account, join 22,000 other set up a free account, join 22,000 other leaders who are in there, have some leaders who are in there, have some leaders who are in there, have some great conversations even beyond the great conversations even beyond the great conversations even beyond the podcast. Coming up next episode, we have podcast. Coming up next episode, we have podcast. Coming up next episode, we have Father Ron Rollheiser and John Mark Father Ron Rollheiser and John Mark Father Ron Rollheiser and John Mark Comr. Big story behind that. You don't Comr. Big story behind that. You don't Comr. Big story behind that. You don't want to miss that. But John Mark said,

want to miss that. But John Mark said, want to miss that. But John Mark said, "Hey, can I jump in and be a co-inter?" "Hey, can I jump in and be a co-inter?" "Hey, can I jump in and be a co-inter?" And I jumped at the chance. Father Ron And I jumped at the chance. Father Ron And I jumped at the chance. Father Ron Rollheiser wrote one of the most Rollheiser wrote one of the most Rollheiser wrote one of the most influential books I've read in a long influential books I've read in a long influential books I've read in a long time and talk about aging and how do you time and talk about aging and how do you time and talk about aging and how do you live life at every stage and a whole lot live life at every stage and a whole lot live life at every stage and a whole lot more. Also coming up, Aaron Graham from more. Also coming up, Aaron Graham from more. Also coming up, Aaron Graham from DC going to talk about well the gospel DC going to talk about well the gospel DC going to talk about well the gospel getting it across in the culture wars getting it across in the culture wars getting it across in the culture wars and more. Tyler Stton, Will Gera and and more. Tyler Stton, Will Gera and and more. Tyler Stton, Will Gera and many other guests. Again, if you many other guests. Again, if you many other guests. Again, if you subscribe, never going to miss an subscribe, never going to miss an subscribe, never going to miss an episode. So, hit follow where you're episode. So, hit follow where you're episode. So, hit follow where you're listening, where you're watching. If listening, where you're watching. If listening, where you're watching. If this meant something to you, please this meant something to you, please this meant something to you, please leave us a review or comment and maybe leave us a review or comment and maybe leave us a review or comment and maybe share it with a friend. And uh I hope share it with a friend. And uh I hope share it with a friend. And uh I hope our time together today helped you our time together today helped you our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.