Pastoring Angry People: When to Speak, When to Stay Silent, and How to Lead Without Losing Everyone

our social media team basically thought, our social media team basically thought, "Hey, this was a great prayer, you know, "Hey, this was a great prayer, you know, "Hey, this was a great prayer, you know, let's clip it because the whole nation let's clip it because the whole nation let's clip it because the whole nation is talking about it." We posted that is talking about it." We posted that is talking about it." We posted that prayer. Uh we went viral within uh 3 prayer. Uh we went viral within uh 3 prayer. Uh we went viral within uh 3 days. I think it had, you know, 5 to 6 days. I think it had, you know, 5 to 6 days. I think it had, you know, 5 to 6 million views, tens of thousands of million views, tens of thousands of million views, tens of thousands of comments, and uh we got about 3,000 comments, and uh we got about 3,000 comments, and uh we got about 3,000 phone calls that if we didn't denounce phone calls that if we didn't denounce phone calls that if we didn't denounce the prayer that people would leave the the prayer that people would leave the the prayer that people would leave the church. church. church. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here. Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here. Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here. Hey, this is special. What I'm calling Hey, this is special. What I'm calling Hey, this is special. What I'm calling an emergency episode. I got so many DMs an emergency episode. I got so many DMs an emergency episode. I got so many DMs from leaders, pastors, uh, listeners to from leaders, pastors, uh, listeners to from leaders, pastors, uh, listeners to this podcast just struggling with this podcast just struggling with this podcast just struggling with something we talked about a couple something we talked about a couple something we talked about a couple months ago, which was disciplehip by months ago, which was disciplehip by months ago, which was disciplehip by algorithm, right? The reason it's so algorithm, right? The reason it's so algorithm, right? The reason it's so hard for you to win. The reason that you hard for you to win. The reason that you hard for you to win. The reason that you have so much difficulty saying anything have so much difficulty saying anything have so much difficulty saying anything about any cultural or you know bigger about any cultural or you know bigger about any cultural or you know bigger issue in your church, you just get issue in your church, you just get issue in your church, you just get slaughtered every time you say something slaughtered every time you say something slaughtered every time you say something is because people are being discipled by is because people are being discipled by is because people are being discipled by an algorithm. People are on their phones an algorithm. People are on their phones an algorithm. People are on their phones 49 hours a week on average. You get 49 hours a week on average. You get 49 hours a week on average. You get about 30 minutes to an hour and a half a about 30 minutes to an hour and a half a about 30 minutes to an hour and a half a week maybe to disciple people and week maybe to disciple people and week maybe to disciple people and they're all being discipled by the they're all being discipled by the they're all being discipled by the algorithm, right? ultrarightwing this or algorithm, right? ultrarightwing this or algorithm, right? ultrarightwing this or mega this or left-wing progressive this mega this or left-wing progressive this mega this or left-wing progressive this or whatever it is. They're all being or whatever it is. They're all being or whatever it is. They're all being discipled differently and it means that discipled differently and it means that discipled differently and it means that the average pastor can't win. So, we are the average pastor can't win. So, we are the average pastor can't win. So, we are doing this emergency episode and I doing this emergency episode and I doing this emergency episode and I brought together a panel of people that brought together a panel of people that brought together a panel of people that I think could really speak into this I think could really speak into this I think could really speak into this issue and that's who you're going to issue and that's who you're going to issue and that's who you're going to hear from over the next 90 minutes. I

hear from over the next 90 minutes. I hear from over the next 90 minutes. I had moderate hopes for this podcast. I had moderate hopes for this podcast. I had moderate hopes for this podcast. I said to them at the beginning, hey, if said to them at the beginning, hey, if said to them at the beginning, hey, if all we do is get a little bit of empathy all we do is get a little bit of empathy all we do is get a little bit of empathy that this is hard right now, pastors, that this is hard right now, pastors, that this is hard right now, pastors, we're in your corner. We see you. You're we're in your corner. We see you. You're we're in your corner. We see you. You're not alone. Hang in there. Um, this will not alone. Hang in there. Um, this will not alone. Hang in there. Um, this will be a successful episode. However, they be a successful episode. However, they be a successful episode. However, they brought so much wisdom. I think you're brought so much wisdom. I think you're brought so much wisdom. I think you're going to find a lot more than just going to find a lot more than just going to find a lot more than just empathy. You're going to find some empathy. You're going to find some empathy. You're going to find some clarity, some guidance, some clarity, some guidance, some clarity, some guidance, some encouragement, and some guidelines. So, encouragement, and some guidelines. So, encouragement, and some guidelines. So, you might want to check out the show you might want to check out the show you might want to check out the show notes. You can find them at notes. You can find them at notes. You can find them at kyneuhoff.com/showotes, kyneuhoff.com/showotes, kyneuhoff.com/showotes, and that's where you'll find everything. and that's where you'll find everything. and that's where you'll find everything. So, who do we have on the podcast? We So, who do we have on the podcast? We So, who do we have on the podcast? We have Sharon Hottie Miller. She leads have Sharon Hottie Miller. She leads have Sharon Hottie Miller. She leads Bright City Church in Durham, North Bright City Church in Durham, North Bright City Church in Durham, North Carolina with her husband Ike. She has a Carolina with her husband Ike. She has a Carolina with her husband Ike. She has a PhD, a doctorate on women and calling PhD, a doctorate on women and calling PhD, a doctorate on women and calling and is also the author of numerous and is also the author of numerous and is also the author of numerous books. We also have Adam Mesa. Adam is a books. We also have Adam Mesa. Adam is a books. We also have Adam Mesa. Adam is a pastor, entrepreneur, and creative pastor, entrepreneur, and creative pastor, entrepreneur, and creative consultant. As lead pastor, he helped consultant. As lead pastor, he helped consultant. As lead pastor, he helped expand and establish the culture of expand and establish the culture of expand and establish the culture of Patria where he currently speaks to a Patria where he currently speaks to a Patria where he currently speaks to a multicultural, multithnic congregation multicultural, multithnic congregation multicultural, multithnic congregation of 12,000 members. Additionally, he is of 12,000 members. Additionally, he is of 12,000 members. Additionally, he is the global leadership team. He is on the the global leadership team. He is on the the global leadership team. He is on the team for pray.com and serves as a board team for pray.com and serves as a board team for pray.com and serves as a board trustee for Life Pacific University. And trustee for Life Pacific University. And trustee for Life Pacific University. And we have Ed Stzer. Ed Stzer also holds a we have Ed Stzer. Ed Stzer also holds a we have Ed Stzer. Ed Stzer also holds a doctorate of PhD. He is the dean and doctorate of PhD. He is the dean and doctorate of PhD. He is the dean and professor of leadership and Christian professor of leadership and Christian professor of leadership and Christian ministry at Talbot School of Theology at ministry at Talbot School of Theology at ministry at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. He also serves as a Biola University. He also serves as a Biola University. He also serves as a distinguished visiting scholar at distinguished visiting scholar at distinguished visiting scholar at Wickliffe Hall at Oxford University Wickliffe Hall at Oxford University Wickliffe Hall at Oxford University where he teaches several times a year.

where he teaches several times a year. where he teaches several times a year. He is a regional director for Loausan He is a regional director for Loausan He is a regional director for Loausan North America, editor and chief of North America, editor and chief of North America, editor and chief of outreach magazine, and regularly writes outreach magazine, and regularly writes outreach magazine, and regularly writes for news outlets such as USA Today, CNN, for news outlets such as USA Today, CNN, for news outlets such as USA Today, CNN, and also serves in his local church. So, and also serves in his local church. So, and also serves in his local church. So, with all that said, if you have been with all that said, if you have been with all that said, if you have been struggling with what to say and feel struggling with what to say and feel struggling with what to say and feel like you get shot down every time you like you get shot down every time you like you get shot down every time you say anything cuz you're not too much say anything cuz you're not too much say anything cuz you're not too much this and not enough that, welcome to the this and not enough that, welcome to the this and not enough that, welcome to the emergency episode. Here we go. Well, emergency episode. Here we go. Well, emergency episode. Here we go. Well, Sharon, Adam, Ed, welcome. Thank you for Sharon, Adam, Ed, welcome. Thank you for Sharon, Adam, Ed, welcome. Thank you for this uh I don't know whether we call it this uh I don't know whether we call it this uh I don't know whether we call it emergency episode, but it kind of feels emergency episode, but it kind of feels emergency episode, but it kind of feels like an emergency if you're leading a like an emergency if you're leading a like an emergency if you're leading a church. It's just so hard to say church. It's just so hard to say church. It's just so hard to say anything right now on current events and anything right now on current events and anything right now on current events and you're all in the thick of it. Sharon you're all in the thick of it. Sharon you're all in the thick of it. Sharon and Adam leading churches day-to-day, Ed and Adam leading churches day-to-day, Ed and Adam leading churches day-to-day, Ed leading a seminary, um doing a lot of leading a seminary, um doing a lot of leading a seminary, um doing a lot of writing and speaking on this topic. So, writing and speaking on this topic. So, writing and speaking on this topic. So, I'm very grateful that you would come I'm very grateful that you would come I'm very grateful that you would come and form this little panel. But, you and form this little panel. But, you and form this little panel. But, you know, here's the problem. You know, if know, here's the problem. You know, if know, here's the problem. You know, if you're a normal, thoughtful pastor who's you're a normal, thoughtful pastor who's you're a normal, thoughtful pastor who's not trying to be a culture warrior right not trying to be a culture warrior right not trying to be a culture warrior right now, it feels like you've basically been now, it feels like you've basically been now, it feels like you've basically been silenced. Like the fringes kind of own silenced. Like the fringes kind of own silenced. Like the fringes kind of own the dialogue. Um, what are you seeing the dialogue. Um, what are you seeing the dialogue. Um, what are you seeing out there as far as, you know, Sharon, out there as far as, you know, Sharon, out there as far as, you know, Sharon, how long have you been in ministry right how long have you been in ministry right how long have you been in ministry right now with your husband? And how have you now with your husband? And how have you now with your husband? And how have you seen it change seen it change seen it change >> in the time that you've been in >> in the time that you've been in >> in the time that you've been in ministry?

ministry? ministry? >> So, I've been in ministry for decades. >> So, I've been in ministry for decades. >> So, I've been in ministry for decades. We planted our church a little over 7 We planted our church a little over 7 We planted our church a little over 7 years ago. And so we launched our church years ago. And so we launched our church years ago. And so we launched our church 18 months before the pandemic. You and I 18 months before the pandemic. You and I 18 months before the pandemic. You and I have talked about this before on the have talked about this before on the have talked about this before on the podcast. And podcast. And podcast. And >> really good time. Yeah. >> really good time. Yeah. >> really good time. Yeah. >> The learn Yeah, it was great the >> The learn Yeah, it was great the >> The learn Yeah, it was great the learning curve of that. And honestly, we learning curve of that. And honestly, we learning curve of that. And honestly, we did learn a lot like there I I feel did learn a lot like there I I feel did learn a lot like there I I feel better prepared going into this better prepared going into this better prepared going into this historical moment because we led through historical moment because we led through historical moment because we led through 2020. But I do think that the temptation 2020. But I do think that the temptation 2020. But I do think that the temptation right now, I don't think that the right now, I don't think that the right now, I don't think that the middle, moderate, whatever you want to middle, moderate, whatever you want to middle, moderate, whatever you want to call it, I don't think those voices have call it, I don't think those voices have call it, I don't think those voices have been silenced necessarily. I do think been silenced necessarily. I do think been silenced necessarily. I do think the fringe voices are louder. And so the the fringe voices are louder. And so the the fringe voices are louder. And so the temptation, and I feel this in myself as temptation, and I feel this in myself as temptation, and I feel this in myself as well, the temptation is to extrapolate well, the temptation is to extrapolate well, the temptation is to extrapolate the extremes as if they represent the extremes as if they represent the extremes as if they represent equally these two sides equally these two sides equally these two sides >> when that is not at all the case where >> when that is not at all the case where >> when that is not at all the case where most people are actually very most people are actually very most people are actually very complicated. They contain multitudes.

complicated. They contain multitudes. complicated. They contain multitudes. their positions are nuanced, but that is their positions are nuanced, but that is their positions are nuanced, but that is not the narrative that social media not the narrative that social media not the narrative that social media necessarily presents to us. necessarily presents to us. necessarily presents to us. >> Yeah. Adam, I don't know whether you >> Yeah. Adam, I don't know whether you >> Yeah. Adam, I don't know whether you want to start there or not, but you're a want to start there or not, but you're a want to start there or not, but you're a couple years into your role as lead couple years into your role as lead couple years into your role as lead pastor of a very large church. Tell us a pastor of a very large church. Tell us a pastor of a very large church. Tell us a little bit about your background and little bit about your background and little bit about your background and then you had a moment recently where um then you had a moment recently where um then you had a moment recently where um not even speaking out on an issue, but not even speaking out on an issue, but not even speaking out on an issue, but praying about an issue uh ended up with praying about an issue uh ended up with praying about an issue uh ended up with a lot of collateral damage. a lot of collateral damage. a lot of collateral damage. Yeah. Um, and I'll sure I'm sure we'll Yeah. Um, and I'll sure I'm sure we'll Yeah. Um, and I'll sure I'm sure we'll you later on give some more context as you later on give some more context as you later on give some more context as well, but in short, I've been pastoring well, but in short, I've been pastoring well, but in short, I've been pastoring lead pastor for about two years now. Uh, lead pastor for about two years now. Uh, lead pastor for about two years now. Uh, 31-year-old church that my dad started 31-year-old church that my dad started 31-year-old church that my dad started in 1994. Uh, we historically were called in 1994. Uh, we historically were called in 1994. Uh, we historically were called Abundant Living Family Church. And then Abundant Living Family Church. And then Abundant Living Family Church. And then we, uh, when I took over, me and my dad we, uh, when I took over, me and my dad we, uh, when I took over, me and my dad mutually agreed it was time to simplify mutually agreed it was time to simplify mutually agreed it was time to simplify our name. And so, uh, we changed the our name. And so, uh, we changed the our name. And so, uh, we changed the church's name to Patria, uh, P A T R I church's name to Patria, uh, P A T R I church's name to Patria, uh, P A T R I A, which just means family, uh, in the A, which just means family, uh, in the A, which just means family, uh, in the Greek, which that's really what our Greek, which that's really what our Greek, which that's really what our church is known for. Um, demographic church is known for. Um, demographic church is known for. Um, demographic wise, our church is a historic wise, our church is a historic wise, our church is a historic African-American church. My dad is a African-American church. My dad is a African-American church. My dad is a Mexican from East LA, and he got saved Mexican from East LA, and he got saved Mexican from East LA, and he got saved in the black church, one of the largest in the black church, one of the largest in the black church, one of the largest black churches in LA, uh, in Pomona back black churches in LA, uh, in Pomona back black churches in LA, uh, in Pomona back in the 80s. And so, for the first in the 80s. And so, for the first in the 80s. And so, for the first probably 20 years, our church was 99% probably 20 years, our church was 99% probably 20 years, our church was 99% African-American. Uh we did the whole African-American. Uh we did the whole African-American. Uh we did the whole shebang choir robes. My dad wore a shebang choir robes. My dad wore a shebang choir robes. My dad wore a three-piece suit, you know, big wooden three-piece suit, you know, big wooden three-piece suit, you know, big wooden uh uh podium. And then my my dad just uh uh podium. And then my my dad just uh uh podium. And then my my dad just really continually had a word from God

really continually had a word from God really continually had a word from God that said, um the church needs to look that said, um the church needs to look that said, um the church needs to look like the city. If you can go to the like the city. If you can go to the like the city. If you can go to the mall, you know, every person in our mall, you know, every person in our mall, you know, every person in our church should be able to invite anyone church should be able to invite anyone church should be able to invite anyone at the mall or any co-orker from work at the mall or any co-orker from work at the mall or any co-orker from work and not have to qualify it and say, "Oh, and not have to qualify it and say, "Oh, and not have to qualify it and say, "Oh, but we're this ethnic church or that." but we're this ethnic church or that." but we're this ethnic church or that." And that was his call he felt. I I have And that was his call he felt. I I have And that was his call he felt. I I have no issues with all one ethnic churches, no issues with all one ethnic churches, no issues with all one ethnic churches, but that was what he really felt uh but that was what he really felt uh but that was what he really felt uh driven to do. And so, um I've been me driven to do. And so, um I've been me driven to do. And so, um I've been me and my wife have been pastoring that. and my wife have been pastoring that. and my wife have been pastoring that. And so, my my wife is half white and And so, my my wife is half white and And so, my my wife is half white and half black. I'm half uh Spanish, half black. I'm half uh Spanish, half black. I'm half uh Spanish, Mexican, and white. And so, Mexican, and white. And so, Mexican, and white. And so, multicultural family, multicultural multicultural family, multicultural multicultural family, multicultural church. Our church nowadays looks like a church. Our church nowadays looks like a church. Our church nowadays looks like a bag of Skittles. you look out uh into bag of Skittles. you look out uh into bag of Skittles. you look out uh into the church, you really can't uh tell the church, you really can't uh tell the church, you really can't uh tell what it is, but I would say the majority what it is, but I would say the majority what it is, but I would say the majority is African-American and Hispanic, but is African-American and Hispanic, but is African-American and Hispanic, but all types of uh Latinos at that rate. all types of uh Latinos at that rate. all types of uh Latinos at that rate. And so um given that context um our And so um given that context um our And so um given that context um our largest kind of giving base historically largest kind of giving base historically largest kind of giving base historically and attendance base out but co it kind and attendance base out but co it kind and attendance base out but co it kind of changed is our African-American of changed is our African-American of changed is our African-American community who um in September when uh community who um in September when uh community who um in September when uh Charlie Kirk was uh assassinated we um Charlie Kirk was uh assassinated we um Charlie Kirk was uh assassinated we um we had a service the night that he had we had a service the night that he had we had a service the night that he had passed. And so I was uh gone at an event passed. And so I was uh gone at an event passed. And so I was uh gone at an event and I had asked our founding pastor, and I had asked our founding pastor, and I had asked our founding pastor, which was my dad, "Hey, can you just say which was my dad, "Hey, can you just say which was my dad, "Hey, can you just say a prayer for Charlie and his family?"

a prayer for Charlie and his family?" a prayer for Charlie and his family?" >> So the service was pres-scheduled. It >> So the service was pres-scheduled. It >> So the service was pres-scheduled. It wasn't one especially. wasn't one especially. wasn't one especially. >> No, it was just it was our normal we do >> No, it was just it was our normal we do >> No, it was just it was our normal we do a midweek service at all of our a midweek service at all of our a midweek service at all of our campuses. And so I just said, "Hey, at campuses. And so I just said, "Hey, at campuses. And so I just said, "Hey, at the end of uh worship, can can you say a the end of uh worship, can can you say a the end of uh worship, can can you say a prayer?" And so our social media team prayer?" And so our social media team prayer?" And so our social media team basically um um thought, "Hey, this was basically um um thought, "Hey, this was basically um um thought, "Hey, this was a great prayer. you know, let's clip it a great prayer. you know, let's clip it a great prayer. you know, let's clip it because the whole nation is talking because the whole nation is talking because the whole nation is talking about it. This was now we didn't know about it. This was now we didn't know about it. This was now we didn't know over the next 24 48 hours the the media over the next 24 48 hours the the media over the next 24 48 hours the the media sp uh spin was going to be that Charlie sp uh spin was going to be that Charlie sp uh spin was going to be that Charlie Kirk was a racist. You know, there's a Kirk was a racist. You know, there's a Kirk was a racist. You know, there's a lot of things that, you know, I think lot of things that, you know, I think lot of things that, you know, I think that Charlie Kirk would have not been that Charlie Kirk would have not been that Charlie Kirk would have not been liked by, but we didn't presume that liked by, but we didn't presume that liked by, but we didn't presume that that would have been the angle. Uh we that would have been the angle. Uh we that would have been the angle. Uh we thought the angle would have just been thought the angle would have just been thought the angle would have just been conservative political activist. And so conservative political activist. And so conservative political activist. And so we felt no issue with a national really we felt no issue with a national really we felt no issue with a national really assassination to to pastor people who assassination to to pastor people who assassination to to pastor people who were having a lot of questions and were having a lot of questions and were having a lot of questions and doubts. And so we posted that prayer and doubts. And so we posted that prayer and doubts. And so we posted that prayer and um because of our church's multi-thnic um because of our church's multi-thnic um because of our church's multi-thnic demographic, but particularly our demographic, but particularly our demographic, but particularly our African-American reach uh we went viral African-American reach uh we went viral African-American reach uh we went viral within uh 3 days. we between Facebook within uh 3 days. we between Facebook within uh 3 days. we between Facebook and Instagram, I think it had, you know, and Instagram, I think it had, you know, and Instagram, I think it had, you know, five to six million views, five to six million views, five to six million views, tens of thousands of comments, and uh we tens of thousands of comments, and uh we tens of thousands of comments, and uh we got about 3,000 phone calls that if we got about 3,000 phone calls that if we got about 3,000 phone calls that if we didn't denounce um the prayer that didn't denounce um the prayer that didn't denounce um the prayer that people would leave the church. And so um people would leave the church. And so um people would leave the church. And so um basically, we made a we made a public basically, we made a we made a public basically, we made a we made a public kind of thing that said Adam is the kind of thing that said Adam is the kind of thing that said Adam is the senior pastor. Uh Pastor Diego is the senior pastor. Uh Pastor Diego is the senior pastor. Uh Pastor Diego is the founding pastor. wait until the senior

founding pastor. wait until the senior founding pastor. wait until the senior pastor hears this weekend and and he'll pastor hears this weekend and and he'll pastor hears this weekend and and he'll address the church. And so we had a address the church. And so we had a address the church. And so we had a packed house of people who were waiting packed house of people who were waiting packed house of people who were waiting to hear what I said and I I basically to hear what I said and I I basically to hear what I said and I I basically read a a copy that I wrote, but I read a a copy that I wrote, but I read a a copy that I wrote, but I essentially said, um, you know, we're essentially said, um, you know, we're essentially said, um, you know, we're not going to apologize for praying for not going to apologize for praying for not going to apologize for praying for someone. Did Did my dad use language someone. Did Did my dad use language someone. Did Did my dad use language that maybe seemed more honoring for some that maybe seemed more honoring for some that maybe seemed more honoring for some people that think that maybe his legacy people that think that maybe his legacy people that think that maybe his legacy is tainted with racist or I didn't is tainted with racist or I didn't is tainted with racist or I didn't exactly say racist remarks, but that was exactly say racist remarks, but that was exactly say racist remarks, but that was the impression. And I said, at the end the impression. And I said, at the end the impression. And I said, at the end of the day, um, this was a national of the day, um, this was a national of the day, um, this was a national issue. Half the church is hurting right issue. Half the church is hurting right issue. Half the church is hurting right now, and half the church is wondering now, and half the church is wondering now, and half the church is wondering why anyone cares. And our job as pastors why anyone cares. And our job as pastors why anyone cares. And our job as pastors is not to pastor culture and politics. is not to pastor culture and politics. is not to pastor culture and politics. It's to pastor people with their pain. It's to pastor people with their pain. It's to pastor people with their pain. And and right now, people are in pain. And and right now, people are in pain. And and right now, people are in pain. And I also said, and a lot of you are And I also said, and a lot of you are And I also said, and a lot of you are doubting, you know, Charlie's faith. He doubting, you know, Charlie's faith. He doubting, you know, Charlie's faith. He is a confessing Christian. I hope that is a confessing Christian. I hope that is a confessing Christian. I hope that when you die that people aren't sitting when you die that people aren't sitting when you die that people aren't sitting at the funeral debating whether you at the funeral debating whether you at the funeral debating whether you really love Jesus or not, even with your really love Jesus or not, even with your really love Jesus or not, even with your flaws. And so I just told the church, I flaws. And so I just told the church, I flaws. And so I just told the church, I love you. Um I will continue to pastor love you. Um I will continue to pastor love you. Um I will continue to pastor here and uh if you leave, um I I here and uh if you leave, um I I here and uh if you leave, um I I understand and I I want you to know that understand and I I want you to know that understand and I I want you to know that you're welcome back anytime. And so I you're welcome back anytime. And so I you're welcome back anytime. And so I basically said that over the next couple basically said that over the next couple basically said that over the next couple weeks, we lost about 900 members and weeks, we lost about 900 members and weeks, we lost about 900 members and over two months we lost about $1.7 over two months we lost about $1.7 over two months we lost about $1.7 million in giving. And uh so from million in giving. And uh so from million in giving. And uh so from September to November that was the case.

September to November that was the case. September to November that was the case. By God's grace, November and December, By God's grace, November and December, By God's grace, November and December, our our giving, our our giving, our our giving, we we covered the gap um of what we lost we we covered the gap um of what we lost we we covered the gap um of what we lost those two months. And going into January those two months. And going into January those two months. And going into January right now, we're we're at our highest right now, we're we're at our highest right now, we're we're at our highest attendance we've ever been. And so God attendance we've ever been. And so God attendance we've ever been. And so God was gracious in that season, but it it was gracious in that season, but it it was gracious in that season, but it it it hit pretty hard for us. it hit pretty hard for us. it hit pretty hard for us. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. in my DMs and emails and I mean it was in my DMs and emails and I mean it was in my DMs and emails and I mean it was every week it was did you see this did every week it was did you see this did every week it was did you see this did you see that did you see and then the you see that did you see and then the you see that did you see and then the next thing that would come out well if next thing that would come out well if next thing that would come out well if you talked about Charlie talk about this you talked about Charlie talk about this you talked about Charlie talk about this talk you know and it it was you know and talk you know and it it was you know and talk you know and it it was you know and we kind of have a a saying at our church we kind of have a a saying at our church we kind of have a a saying at our church that we won't go heavy into politics but that we won't go heavy into politics but that we won't go heavy into politics but we will pastor you through the season we will pastor you through the season we will pastor you through the season and the culture and and stuff like that and the culture and and stuff like that and the culture and and stuff like that and so um our church is split 50/50 and so um our church is split 50/50 and so um our church is split 50/50 Democrat Republican for the most part Democrat Republican for the most part Democrat Republican for the most part and so like um you know you you say one and so like um you know you you say one and so like um you know you you say one thing. One one whole side of the church thing. One one whole side of the church thing. One one whole side of the church is mad and and I get off the pulpit and is mad and and I get off the pulpit and is mad and and I get off the pulpit and have two to 300 DMs, you know, um of have two to 300 DMs, you know, um of have two to 300 DMs, you know, um of what what they did or didn't like that what what they did or didn't like that what what they did or didn't like that that I said. That's what happens when that I said. That's what happens when that I said. That's what happens when you have a truly multicultural church of you have a truly multicultural church of you have a truly multicultural church of all cultures, not just ethnicities. And all cultures, not just ethnicities. And all cultures, not just ethnicities. And so I face that regularly.

so I face that regularly. so I face that regularly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, thank you so much for sharing >> Well, thank you so much for sharing >> Well, thank you so much for sharing that. We're going to come back to that that. We're going to come back to that that. We're going to come back to that because I want to get into the every because I want to get into the every because I want to get into the every time you say something, there's two or time you say something, there's two or time you say something, there's two or 30 hundred DMs. 30 hundred DMs. 30 hundred DMs. >> Ed, I'm so glad you joined us for this >> Ed, I'm so glad you joined us for this >> Ed, I'm so glad you joined us for this conversation. I mean, you and I are conversation. I mean, you and I are conversation. I mean, you and I are around the same age. I think I'm a year around the same age. I think I'm a year around the same age. I think I'm a year older than you are. So, you've been older than you are. So, you've been older than you are. So, you've been around the block a few times. Has around the block a few times. Has around the block a few times. Has anything really changed or are we just anything really changed or are we just anything really changed or are we just feeling it more? Like, you've been, you feeling it more? Like, you've been, you feeling it more? Like, you've been, you know, pastoring now for decades. What know, pastoring now for decades. What know, pastoring now for decades. What have you noticed about the last 5 to 10 have you noticed about the last 5 to 10 have you noticed about the last 5 to 10 years that is or is not different? No, I years that is or is not different? No, I years that is or is not different? No, I I Gary, I think there's clearly I Gary, I think there's clearly I Gary, I think there's clearly something has shifted in our culture. something has shifted in our culture. something has shifted in our culture. And I I wrote about this in my uh And I I wrote about this in my uh And I I wrote about this in my uh Outreach magazine column, I don't know, Outreach magazine column, I don't know, Outreach magazine column, I don't know, few years ago, and I I kind of building few years ago, and I I kind of building few years ago, and I I kind of building on an an earlier article that I read in on an an earlier article that I read in on an an earlier article that I read in the Atlantic, but basically we're in the the Atlantic, but basically we're in the the Atlantic, but basically we're in the midst of a cultural convulsion that's midst of a cultural convulsion that's midst of a cultural convulsion that's unlike anything we've seen in our unlike anything we've seen in our unlike anything we've seen in our lifetime. And I kind of explained that lifetime. And I kind of explained that lifetime. And I kind of explained that about every 60 years, America sort of about every 60 years, America sort of about every 60 years, America sort of comes through these cultural comes through these cultural comes through these cultural convulsions. was the late 60s, early 70s convulsions. was the late 60s, early 70s convulsions. was the late 60s, early 70s was the prior time. We're basically we was the prior time. We're basically we was the prior time. We're basically we sort of turn on one another and we don't sort of turn on one another and we don't sort of turn on one another and we don't trust one another and you know social trust one another and you know social trust one another and you know social cohesion uh collapses and more and I cohesion uh collapses and more and I cohesion uh collapses and more and I think we're in the midst of that and I think we're in the midst of that and I think we're in the midst of that and I would say you have to amplify that with would say you have to amplify that with would say you have to amplify that with the fact that you know like every person the fact that you know like every person the fact that you know like every person every pastor is now a public figure every pastor is now a public figure every pastor is now a public figure because social media and technology because social media and technology because social media and technology creates that. So, you know, when you creates that. So, you know, when you creates that. So, you know, when you think back, you know, you know, some of think back, you know, you know, some of think back, you know, you know, some of the ministry of DL Moody, um, you I was the ministry of DL Moody, um, you I was the ministry of DL Moody, um, you I was the, uh, interim pastor of Moody Church the, uh, interim pastor of Moody Church the, uh, interim pastor of Moody Church for about four years, you know, and and

for about four years, you know, and and for about four years, you know, and and he would say some things in the midst of he would say some things in the midst of he would say some things in the midst of the, you know, his ministry in late the, you know, his ministry in late the, you know, his ministry in late 1800s that were would be shockingly 1800s that were would be shockingly 1800s that were would be shockingly controversial. Uh, but it it was more controversial. Uh, but it it was more controversial. Uh, but it it was more localized. It wasn't something that then localized. It wasn't something that then localized. It wasn't something that then could be broadcast like Adam's story could be broadcast like Adam's story could be broadcast like Adam's story like like he said something to a local like like he said something to a local like like he said something to a local church but and then they put it online church but and then they put it online church but and then they put it online but then it goes millions of people see but then it goes millions of people see but then it goes millions of people see those things and I think all of us are those things and I think all of us are those things and I think all of us are going to get that you know 15 minutes of going to get that you know 15 minutes of going to get that you know 15 minutes of fame or infamy depending upon how it fame or infamy depending upon how it fame or infamy depending upon how it goes. It's just it's just part of the goes. It's just it's just part of the goes. It's just it's just part of the norm today. But I would also say too you norm today. But I would also say too you norm today. But I would also say too you combine these two things together. the combine these two things together. the combine these two things together. the technology which has elevated technology which has elevated technology which has elevated everybody's voice, a great flattening of everybody's voice, a great flattening of everybody's voice, a great flattening of everybody's voice. And you combine that everybody's voice. And you combine that everybody's voice. And you combine that with a cultural convulsion with with a cultural convulsion with with a cultural convulsion with significantly high levels of distrust. significantly high levels of distrust. significantly high levels of distrust. And then you combine that with an entire And then you combine that with an entire And then you combine that with an entire industry of grievance grifters who are industry of grievance grifters who are industry of grievance grifters who are basically spending their time online basically spending their time online basically spending their time online trying to stir up anger so they can grow trying to stir up anger so they can grow trying to stir up anger so they can grow their own platform. So those three their own platform. So those three their own platform. So those three things just create a perfect storm that things just create a perfect storm that things just create a perfect storm that you know I think pastors are are you know I think pastors are are you know I think pastors are are probably navigating better in 2026 than probably navigating better in 2026 than probably navigating better in 2026 than they did in maybe 2016 or 2020. Uh but they did in maybe 2016 or 2020. Uh but they did in maybe 2016 or 2020. Uh but still uh you know and we we have whole still uh you know and we we have whole still uh you know and we we have whole people I mean when I when I see people people I mean when I when I see people people I mean when I when I see people on social media particularly non-pastors on social media particularly non-pastors on social media particularly non-pastors saying if your church doesn't say this saying if your church doesn't say this saying if your church doesn't say this find a new church can I just say don't find a new church can I just say don't find a new church can I just say don't listen to people with those you you you listen to people with those you you you listen to people with those you you you and your elders if you're a pastor you and your elders if you're a pastor you and your elders if you're a pastor you and your elders talk about how to and your elders talk about how to and your elders talk about how to shepherd the congregation. Adam's shepherd the congregation. Adam's shepherd the congregation. Adam's context is different you know I'm context is different you know I'm context is different you know I'm teaching pastor at Mariners church it's teaching pastor at Mariners church it's teaching pastor at Mariners church it's a different context than where we are

a different context than where we are a different context than where we are and then where where Sharon is. So what and then where where Sharon is. So what and then where where Sharon is. So what what I would say is just recognize these what I would say is just recognize these what I would say is just recognize these are stormy waters and we need to have are stormy waters and we need to have are stormy waters and we need to have more than just hey I feel I should say more than just hey I feel I should say more than just hey I feel I should say something about this. No, we need to something about this. No, we need to something about this. No, we need to think through what to say, think through what to say, think through what to say, how much to say, how to say it, when to how much to say, how to say it, when to how much to say, how to say it, when to say it. And uh and I I think all those say it. And uh and I I think all those say it. And uh and I I think all those things will help us think more things will help us think more things will help us think more discerningly about the kind of waters we discerningly about the kind of waters we discerningly about the kind of waters we haven't been in just historically. haven't been in just historically. haven't been in just historically. >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by Subsplash. And I have Chris Sharp from Subsplash. And I have Chris Sharp from Subsplash. And I have Chris Sharp from Subsplash here. Chris, what's one area Subsplash here. Chris, what's one area Subsplash here. Chris, what's one area you're seeing churches struggle with so you're seeing churches struggle with so you're seeing churches struggle with so far in 2026? And what kind of downstream far in 2026? And what kind of downstream far in 2026? And what kind of downstream effects are are those struggles causing? effects are are those struggles causing? effects are are those struggles causing? >> Yeah. Now, in 2026, Carrie, churches >> Yeah. Now, in 2026, Carrie, churches >> Yeah. Now, in 2026, Carrie, churches have clearly said technology is have clearly said technology is have clearly said technology is something we're going to use. One of the something we're going to use. One of the something we're going to use. One of the downsides is we've seen so many churches downsides is we've seen so many churches downsides is we've seen so many churches who have signed up for and are using so who have signed up for and are using so who have signed up for and are using so many disconnected and disperate tools many disconnected and disperate tools many disconnected and disperate tools that they might have five, they might that they might have five, they might that they might have five, they might have 10. They're not talking to each have 10. They're not talking to each have 10. They're not talking to each other. And what it's doing is it's other. And what it's doing is it's other. And what it's doing is it's creating so much wasted time on creating so much wasted time on creating so much wasted time on processes and systems that's taking away processes and systems that's taking away processes and systems that's taking away from time the church could focus on from time the church could focus on from time the church could focus on disciplehip.

disciplehip. disciplehip. >> You know, I think that's everybody's >> You know, I think that's everybody's >> You know, I think that's everybody's problem online these days with any problem online these days with any problem online these days with any laptop, right? You just got too many laptop, right? You just got too many laptop, right? You just got too many things going at once. So, how can things going at once. So, how can things going at once. So, how can Subsplash help churches with something Subsplash help churches with something Subsplash help churches with something like this, like this, like this, >> right? Yeah. We've created one platform >> right? Yeah. We've created one platform >> right? Yeah. We've created one platform for disciplehip from knowing your people for disciplehip from knowing your people for disciplehip from knowing your people and groups and forms and communication and groups and forms and communication and groups and forms and communication to your mobile apps and media delivery to your mobile apps and media delivery to your mobile apps and media delivery and so much more and giving. And this is and so much more and giving. And this is and so much more and giving. And this is one connected platform. So what that one connected platform. So what that one connected platform. So what that does is it actually frees up time does is it actually frees up time does is it actually frees up time ultimately saves churches money but ultimately saves churches money but ultimately saves churches money but enables them to be spending more time on enables them to be spending more time on enables them to be spending more time on what matters most and using one what matters most and using one what matters most and using one connected tool across all teams. So, for connected tool across all teams. So, for connected tool across all teams. So, for our podcast listeners, you can go to our podcast listeners, you can go to our podcast listeners, you can go to subsplash.com/carry subsplash.com/carry subsplash.com/carry to get $500 off when you sign up today. to get $500 off when you sign up today. to get $500 off when you sign up today. That's subsplash.com/cy. That's subsplash.com/cy. That's subsplash.com/cy. You'll get $500 off when you sign up You'll get $500 off when you sign up You'll get $500 off when you sign up today. It's time to simplify so you can today. It's time to simplify so you can today. It's time to simplify so you can multiply your ministry impact. Today's multiply your ministry impact. Today's multiply your ministry impact. Today's episode is brought to you by Fund the episode is brought to you by Fund the episode is brought to you by Fund the Future MasterClass. I'd love to share Future MasterClass. I'd love to share Future MasterClass. I'd love to share just a quick word with you about just a quick word with you about just a quick word with you about something that Craig Relle and I created something that Craig Relle and I created something that Craig Relle and I created together. In this episode, Craig and I together. In this episode, Craig and I together. In this episode, Craig and I share that we both walked really hard share that we both walked really hard share that we both walked really hard seasons in leadership. Walls that felt seasons in leadership. Walls that felt seasons in leadership. Walls that felt like they might take us out if we didn't like they might take us out if we didn't like they might take us out if we didn't do something different. And one of the do something different. And one of the do something different. And one of the biggest challenges I think a lot of biggest challenges I think a lot of biggest challenges I think a lot of leaders face, it's sustainability, leaders face, it's sustainability, leaders face, it's sustainability, right? Vision and momentum. When right? Vision and momentum. When right? Vision and momentum. When finances feel stuck and giving doesn't finances feel stuck and giving doesn't finances feel stuck and giving doesn't match the mission that you see God match the mission that you see God match the mission that you see God calling you toward. That's why Craig and calling you toward. That's why Craig and calling you toward. That's why Craig and I along with Ashley Wridge, Chris I along with Ashley Wridge, Chris I along with Ashley Wridge, Chris Hodgeges, and others created the Fund

Hodgeges, and others created the Fund Hodgeges, and others created the Fund the Future Master Class. It's a course the Future Master Class. It's a course the Future Master Class. It's a course built to help you move beyond built to help you move beyond built to help you move beyond transactional conversations about money transactional conversations about money transactional conversations about money and into a transformational culture of and into a transformational culture of and into a transformational culture of generosity. It's a step-by-step generosity. It's a step-by-step generosity. It's a step-by-step framework with practical strategies for framework with practical strategies for framework with practical strategies for casting vision that inspires giving, casting vision that inspires giving, casting vision that inspires giving, engaging donors in ways that actually engaging donors in ways that actually engaging donors in ways that actually feel healthy, not weird, and biblical feel healthy, not weird, and biblical feel healthy, not weird, and biblical and funding your mission for the long and funding your mission for the long and funding your mission for the long haul. So, you can get actual tools and haul. So, you can get actual tools and haul. So, you can get actual tools and frameworks, not just ideas. and you'll frameworks, not just ideas. and you'll frameworks, not just ideas. and you'll learn alongside other leaders wrestling learn alongside other leaders wrestling learn alongside other leaders wrestling with the same challenges. So, if you with the same challenges. So, if you with the same challenges. So, if you want to grow in a way that lasts and you want to grow in a way that lasts and you want to grow in a way that lasts and you want to scale this barrier that Craig want to scale this barrier that Craig want to scale this barrier that Craig and I both had to scale at different and I both had to scale at different and I both had to scale at different times, go and check out the link in the times, go and check out the link in the times, go and check out the link in the description of this episode or just description of this episode or just description of this episode or just visit kyneu-hoff.com/fundthe visit kyneu-hoff.com/fundthe visit kyneu-hoff.com/fundthe future. That's kyneu-hoff.com/fundthe future. That's kyneu-hoff.com/fundthe future. That's kyneu-hoff.com/fundthe future. So, you mentioned and this is future. So, you mentioned and this is future. So, you mentioned and this is interesting, you know, you mentioned interesting, you know, you mentioned interesting, you know, you mentioned cycles of history. So, I mean, America cycles of history. So, I mean, America cycles of history. So, I mean, America has been divided before, the world has has been divided before, the world has has been divided before, the world has been divided before. Um, do you think been divided before. Um, do you think been divided before. Um, do you think this is just cyclical and it will get this is just cyclical and it will get this is just cyclical and it will get better, or do you think because we now better, or do you think because we now better, or do you think because we now have social media, AI, I mean, we're have social media, AI, I mean, we're have social media, AI, I mean, we're just dipping the toe into the AI waters just dipping the toe into the AI waters just dipping the toe into the AI waters where we can make Adam say or Sharon say where we can make Adam say or Sharon say where we can make Adam say or Sharon say whatever I want them to say, even if whatever I want them to say, even if whatever I want them to say, even if it's not really them. Um, do you see it's not really them. Um, do you see it's not really them. Um, do you see this as a as a cultural moment, so to this as a as a cultural moment, so to this as a as a cultural moment, so to speak, or do you see this as no, this is speak, or do you see this as no, this is speak, or do you see this as no, this is our future? Well, I I think it's again I our future? Well, I I think it's again I our future? Well, I I think it's again I I would say my opinion is I think it's I would say my opinion is I think it's I would say my opinion is I think it's going to get worse before it gets going to get worse before it gets going to get worse before it gets better. Uh I think coming up on the US

better. Uh I think coming up on the US better. Uh I think coming up on the US midterms, we're going to see just midterms, we're going to see just midterms, we're going to see just increasing challenges in and around increasing challenges in and around increasing challenges in and around these spaces. And I would say to you these spaces. And I would say to you these spaces. And I would say to you that past cultural convulsions actually that past cultural convulsions actually that past cultural convulsions actually had more violence than we've had. If you had more violence than we've had. If you had more violence than we've had. If you think back to the late60s, you know, I think back to the late60s, you know, I think back to the late60s, you know, I mean, as Christians, we we might mainly mean, as Christians, we we might mainly mean, as Christians, we we might mainly think of the Jesus people movement, but think of the Jesus people movement, but think of the Jesus people movement, but really you need to read a lot more. really you need to read a lot more. really you need to read a lot more. There was widespread violence uh you There was widespread violence uh you There was widespread violence uh you know, late 1800s, early 1900s as well. know, late 1800s, early 1900s as well. know, late 1800s, early 1900s as well. So, I think it's probably going to get So, I think it's probably going to get So, I think it's probably going to get worse, but at the end of the day, yeah, worse, but at the end of the day, yeah, worse, but at the end of the day, yeah, I mean, eventually, I mean, the late I mean, eventually, I mean, the late I mean, eventually, I mean, the late '60s resolved into the early '7s and '60s resolved into the early '7s and '60s resolved into the early '7s and things sort of calmed down again. We got things sort of calmed down again. We got things sort of calmed down again. We got disco, so let's hope that doesn't happen disco, so let's hope that doesn't happen disco, so let's hope that doesn't happen again. Uh, so it doesn't history doesn't again. Uh, so it doesn't history doesn't again. Uh, so it doesn't history doesn't always repeat itself. But, but so what I always repeat itself. But, but so what I always repeat itself. But, but so what I would say is and and here's the part would say is and and here's the part would say is and and here's the part that like probably the worse it gets, that like probably the worse it gets, that like probably the worse it gets, the more gospel opportunity there's the more gospel opportunity there's the more gospel opportunity there's going to be, the more you know, unmoring going to be, the more you know, unmoring going to be, the more you know, unmoring that we're having. you know, people are that we're having. you know, people are that we're having. you know, people are unmoring from their cultural norms and unmoring from their cultural norms and unmoring from their cultural norms and practices and some of them are turning practices and some of them are turning practices and some of them are turning to the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, I to the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, I to the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, I don't want it to get worse, but I think don't want it to get worse, but I think don't want it to get worse, but I think it's going to get worse and I think with it's going to get worse and I think with it's going to get worse and I think with it getting worse, I I I really, you it getting worse, I I I really, you it getting worse, I I I really, you know, I describe this time as um know, I describe this time as um know, I describe this time as um disrupted, uh, precarious and opportune.

disrupted, uh, precarious and opportune. disrupted, uh, precarious and opportune. So, disrupted, we talked about So, disrupted, we talked about So, disrupted, we talked about precarious is I'm not sure like I've precarious is I'm not sure like I've precarious is I'm not sure like I've been writing a book on the future of been writing a book on the future of been writing a book on the future of evangelicalism and I'm now nine years evangelicalism and I'm now nine years evangelicalism and I'm now nine years late to the publisher. I'm not sure late to the publisher. I'm not sure late to the publisher. I'm not sure where and most of us are either where and most of us are either where and most of us are either evangelical or evangelical adjacent in evangelical or evangelical adjacent in evangelical or evangelical adjacent in at least in this conversation. I'm not at least in this conversation. I'm not at least in this conversation. I'm not sure what's going to happen to our sure what's going to happen to our sure what's going to happen to our movement. But then I'm also I just think movement. But then I'm also I just think movement. But then I'm also I just think it's opportune. So, you know, maybe I'm it's opportune. So, you know, maybe I'm it's opportune. So, you know, maybe I'm perpetually optimistic because I I've perpetually optimistic because I I've perpetually optimistic because I I've read the end of the book and Jesus wins, read the end of the book and Jesus wins, read the end of the book and Jesus wins, but I just see historically uh bad times but I just see historically uh bad times but I just see historically uh bad times produce good gospel soil. And so, produce good gospel soil. And so, produce good gospel soil. And so, >> yeah, so it's it's a mess out there. And >> yeah, so it's it's a mess out there. And >> yeah, so it's it's a mess out there. And what I would say is probably, you know, what I would say is probably, you know, what I would say is probably, you know, most pastors, you know, are listening or most pastors, you know, are listening or most pastors, you know, are listening or church leaders are listening. They church leaders are listening. They church leaders are listening. They didn't know they'd have to be PR experts didn't know they'd have to be PR experts didn't know they'd have to be PR experts to navigate the cultural moment. But you to navigate the cultural moment. But you to navigate the cultural moment. But you need to you need to be able to, you just need to you need to be able to, you just need to you need to be able to, you just think, what will my congregation think? think, what will my congregation think? think, what will my congregation think? And that's in a sense trying to navigate And that's in a sense trying to navigate And that's in a sense trying to navigate and shepherd. But now you have to also and shepherd. But now you have to also and shepherd. But now you have to also ask what are people out there going to ask what are people out there going to ask what are people out there going to think? some of whom, and this is key, think? some of whom, and this is key, think? some of whom, and this is key, are intentionally trying to misrepresent are intentionally trying to misrepresent are intentionally trying to misrepresent you because they have a monetized you because they have a monetized you because they have a monetized incentive to do so to grow their social incentive to do so to grow their social incentive to do so to grow their social media platforms. And the best article on media platforms. And the best article on media platforms. And the best article on that is uh Carl Truman's article on gig that is uh Carl Truman's article on gig that is uh Carl Truman's article on gig Eva. He's the he's the guy who coined Eva. He's the he's the guy who coined Eva. He's the he's the guy who coined the term big EVA, which is, you know, the term big EVA, which is, you know, the term big EVA, which is, you know, unconnected group of speakers, etc., unconnected group of speakers, etc., unconnected group of speakers, etc., etc. So he wrote this fascinating and etc. So he wrote this fascinating and etc. So he wrote this fascinating and helpful article in first things uh helpful article in first things uh helpful article in first things uh called gig eva about the rise of u just called gig eva about the rise of u just called gig eva about the rise of u just like big eva was these unaccountable like big eva was these unaccountable like big eva was these unaccountable speakers and conference speakers which

speakers and conference speakers which speakers and conference speakers which he was not a fan a fan of but giggy eva he was not a fan a fan of but giggy eva he was not a fan a fan of but giggy eva gig as in like a gig economy anyone I'm gig as in like a gig economy anyone I'm gig as in like a gig economy anyone I'm quoting it anyone with the time to spend quoting it anyone with the time to spend quoting it anyone with the time to spend living online can become a celebrity living online can become a celebrity living online can become a celebrity without having proved himself beforehand without having proved himself beforehand without having proved himself beforehand in any real service to the church and in any real service to the church and in any real service to the church and and I I think right now some of the and I I think right now some of the and I I think right now some of the biggest critics that probably end up in biggest critics that probably end up in biggest critics that probably end up in your spaces your spaces your spaces uh are actually somebody who often not uh are actually somebody who often not uh are actually somebody who often not connected to your local church but has connected to your local church but has connected to your local church but has kind of built a platform on could be kind of built a platform on could be kind of built a platform on could be criticism, could be whatever term they criticism, could be whatever term they criticism, could be whatever term they want to use, often misrepresenting as want to use, often misrepresenting as want to use, often misrepresenting as well. And I think all those things are well. And I think all those things are well. And I think all those things are just a cauldron of challenge that just a cauldron of challenge that just a cauldron of challenge that pastors are walking through. pastors are walking through. pastors are walking through. >> We'll link to that in the show notes. >> We'll link to that in the show notes. >> We'll link to that in the show notes. Thanks. I hadn't read that article. I'm Thanks. I hadn't read that article. I'm Thanks. I hadn't read that article. I'm going to be very interested to read it. going to be very interested to read it. going to be very interested to read it. What's the EVA eva? What What's the EVA eva? What What's the EVA eva? What >> Oh, evangelicals. I'm so sorry. So, it's >> Oh, evangelicals. I'm so sorry. So, it's >> Oh, evangelicals. I'm so sorry. So, it's just short form for just short form for just short form for >> evangelical. you know, you and I and and >> evangelical. you know, you and I and and >> evangelical. you know, you and I and and and others would be probably part of and others would be probably part of and others would be probably part of what he critiqued under big EVA, you what he critiqued under big EVA, you what he critiqued under big EVA, you know, so we speak at these conferences know, so we speak at these conferences know, so we speak at these conferences and you know, and there's not really and you know, and there's not really and you know, and there's not really accountable to anyone except one another accountable to anyone except one another accountable to anyone except one another who you invite, but gig eva is people who you invite, but gig eva is people who you invite, but gig eva is people who've built and again when I say it was who've built and again when I say it was who've built and again when I say it was interesting like the all the people who interesting like the all the people who interesting like the all the people who got upset, you could see why they got got upset, you could see why they got got upset, you could see why they got upset about it because it's like I mean upset about it because it's like I mean upset about it because it's like I mean these are unaccountable people who these are unaccountable people who these are unaccountable people who basically the more outrageous they say basically the more outrageous they say basically the more outrageous they say the more people respond and you know and the more people respond and you know and the more people respond and you know and what they've learned like we have like what they've learned like we have like what they've learned like we have like like reg I mean I occasionally I've text like reg I mean I occasionally I've text like reg I mean I occasionally I've text Sharon sometimes and said don't respond Sharon sometimes and said don't respond Sharon sometimes and said don't respond to those people.

to those people. to those people. >> So because when we do it actually >> So because when we do it actually >> So because when we do it actually changes the algorithm and you're just changes the algorithm and you're just changes the algorithm and you're just helping build their platform uh which is helping build their platform uh which is helping build their platform uh which is a platform that's again built on often a platform that's again built on often a platform that's again built on often grievance and not facts and reality. I grievance and not facts and reality. I grievance and not facts and reality. I don't misunderstand. I do think there's don't misunderstand. I do think there's don't misunderstand. I do think there's a time and place, you know, this great a time and place, you know, this great a time and place, you know, this great flattening social media. People can call flattening social media. People can call flattening social media. People can call speak truth to power, but man, people speak truth to power, but man, people speak truth to power, but man, people have weaponized it and and and everyone have weaponized it and and and everyone have weaponized it and and and everyone we know sees and pastors see and we know sees and pastors see and we know sees and pastors see and experience it. experience it. experience it. >> Sharon, I want to go into your context. >> Sharon, I want to go into your context. >> Sharon, I want to go into your context. You and your husband Ike lead your You and your husband Ike lead your You and your husband Ike lead your church. You're on a different coast. And church. You're on a different coast. And church. You're on a different coast. And uh what do you what do you how is this uh what do you what do you how is this uh what do you what do you how is this showing up daytoday like Monday to showing up daytoday like Monday to showing up daytoday like Monday to Friday in your ministry? This this Friday in your ministry? This this Friday in your ministry? This this cultural moment we're in? cultural moment we're in? cultural moment we're in? I would say the primary way it is I would say the primary way it is I would say the primary way it is showing up is actually in anxiety. So showing up is actually in anxiety. So showing up is actually in anxiety. So less division and and I think that less division and and I think that less division and and I think that distinction is really important because distinction is really important because distinction is really important because when someone reaches out and says why when someone reaches out and says why when someone reaches out and says why haven't you talked about XYZ like why haven't you talked about XYZ like why haven't you talked about XYZ like why haven't you made a statement about this haven't you made a statement about this haven't you made a statement about this or this or I don't know if I agreed with or this or I don't know if I agreed with or this or I don't know if I agreed with how you handled that. I think earlier in how you handled that. I think earlier in how you handled that. I think earlier in ministry I would have received that ministry I would have received that ministry I would have received that solely as a critique of my leadership solely as a critique of my leadership solely as a critique of my leadership and to some extent it is but what I have and to some extent it is but what I have and to some extent it is but what I have learned is to understand what they are learned is to understand what they are learned is to understand what they are really expressing is anxiety is is they really expressing is anxiety is is they really expressing is anxiety is is they are feeling anxiety about what is are feeling anxiety about what is are feeling anxiety about what is happening in our world and they don't happening in our world and they don't happening in our world and they don't know what to do with it and they are know what to do with it and they are know what to do with it and they are looking to me to pastor them and so I

looking to me to pastor them and so I looking to me to pastor them and so I think that's important that's an think that's important that's an think that's important that's an important distinction for pastors to important distinction for pastors to important distinction for pastors to make is that that this isn't necessarily make is that that this isn't necessarily make is that that this isn't necessarily a sign of division. This isn't a sign of division. This isn't a sign of division. This isn't necessarily a sign of someone necessarily a sign of someone necessarily a sign of someone criticizing your leadership. This is a criticizing your leadership. This is a criticizing your leadership. This is a person in need of pastoral care. And so person in need of pastoral care. And so person in need of pastoral care. And so being able to receive, is there anything being able to receive, is there anything being able to receive, is there anything that they are communicating to me that that they are communicating to me that that they are communicating to me that we have not been clear about that we we have not been clear about that we we have not been clear about that we actually do need to be clear about? actually do need to be clear about? actually do need to be clear about? Also, are they highlighting an area in Also, are they highlighting an area in Also, are they highlighting an area in need of pastoral care? So for instance, need of pastoral care? So for instance, need of pastoral care? So for instance, we realized that one space that was we realized that one space that was we realized that one space that was missing was a a space where people could missing was a a space where people could missing was a a space where people could come and process with a pastor what is come and process with a pastor what is come and process with a pastor what is happening in our world. We realized we happening in our world. We realized we happening in our world. We realized we needed a space to come and pray needed a space to come and pray needed a space to come and pray together. And so creating some of those together. And so creating some of those together. And so creating some of those spaces, but being able to reframe that spaces, but being able to reframe that spaces, but being able to reframe that just because you get what feels like a just because you get what feels like a just because you get what feels like a critical email doesn't necessarily mean critical email doesn't necessarily mean critical email doesn't necessarily mean things are just fracturing in two. things are just fracturing in two. things are just fracturing in two. Sometimes that is actually a cry for Sometimes that is actually a cry for Sometimes that is actually a cry for pastoral care. pastoral care. pastoral care. >> H Adam, when you get a couple hundred >> H Adam, when you get a couple hundred >> H Adam, when you get a couple hundred DMs after a normal Sunday where you're DMs after a normal Sunday where you're DMs after a normal Sunday where you're preaching, what how do you even begin, preaching, what how do you even begin, preaching, what how do you even begin, man? Like what do you what do you do? Do man? Like what do you what do you do? Do man? Like what do you what do you do? Do you just ignore them? Do you have a team you just ignore them? Do you have a team you just ignore them? Do you have a team who looks at them? Do you try to get who looks at them? Do you try to get who looks at them? Do you try to get back to everybody personally? Cuz I back to everybody personally? Cuz I back to everybody personally? Cuz I think we all have a category for those think we all have a category for those think we all have a category for those one or two emails or DMs that come our one or two emails or DMs that come our one or two emails or DMs that come our way. It's like, "All right, I'll call way. It's like, "All right, I'll call way. It's like, "All right, I'll call this guy or whatever." Well, you get two this guy or whatever." Well, you get two this guy or whatever." Well, you get two or 30 hundred, man. That's a different or 30 hundred, man. That's a different or 30 hundred, man. That's a different ballgame. What do you do with that?

ballgame. What do you do with that? ballgame. What do you do with that? I mean, for the most part, I kind of I mean, for the most part, I kind of I mean, for the most part, I kind of have it split up into two frames of have it split up into two frames of have it split up into two frames of thinking. If uh and they kind of go in thinking. If uh and they kind of go in thinking. If uh and they kind of go in the same way, but the first one is if the same way, but the first one is if the same way, but the first one is if it's immediately critical, demeaning, or it's immediately critical, demeaning, or it's immediately critical, demeaning, or has no context, you know, look at this has no context, you know, look at this has no context, you know, look at this video. It'll show you it's wrong. You're video. It'll show you it's wrong. You're video. It'll show you it's wrong. You're wrong. You know, I get sent reels all wrong. You know, I get sent reels all wrong. You know, I get sent reels all the time. I'm not watching those dumb the time. I'm not watching those dumb the time. I'm not watching those dumb things, you know, like I'm not So, for things, you know, like I'm not So, for things, you know, like I'm not So, for me, if it's just like that stuff, I me, if it's just like that stuff, I me, if it's just like that stuff, I don't respond. I I leave it unread. If don't respond. I I leave it unread. If don't respond. I I leave it unread. If it's um hey pastor Adam I'm a member it's um hey pastor Adam I'm a member it's um hey pastor Adam I'm a member what Patria did this weekend really what Patria did this weekend really what Patria did this weekend really offended at me really hurt me or I'm offended at me really hurt me or I'm offended at me really hurt me or I'm really struggling you know a woman just really struggling you know a woman just really struggling you know a woman just I mean we're we're now month you know I mean we're we're now month you know I mean we're we're now month you know months and months since Charlie Kirk a months and months since Charlie Kirk a months and months since Charlie Kirk a woman a week ago was like I went to your woman a week ago was like I went to your woman a week ago was like I went to your church for 25 years you know I'm a big church for 25 years you know I'm a big church for 25 years you know I'm a big uh you know I live in another state now uh you know I live in another state now uh you know I live in another state now I watch online all the time I'm hurting I watch online all the time I'm hurting I watch online all the time I'm hurting so much because of what you guys did in so much because of what you guys did in so much because of what you guys did in September and uh she's in her late 70s September and uh she's in her late 70s September and uh she's in her late 70s and I just responded and just told her and I just responded and just told her and I just responded and just told her like, you know, I'm sorry. And she was like, you know, I'm sorry. And she was like, you know, I'm sorry. And she was specifically trying to, you know, share specifically trying to, you know, share specifically trying to, you know, share her thoughts on on my dad's prayer. And her thoughts on on my dad's prayer. And her thoughts on on my dad's prayer. And I just I just apologize and told her I I just I just apologize and told her I I just I just apologize and told her I love her and and you know, what what you love her and and you know, what what you love her and and you know, what what you think we we were doing is not what it's think we we were doing is not what it's think we we were doing is not what it's perceived. Um and um you know, I I pray perceived. Um and um you know, I I pray perceived. Um and um you know, I I pray that you can have peace with it. I'm not that you can have peace with it. I'm not that you can have peace with it. I'm not some if I genuinely made a mistake, I some if I genuinely made a mistake, I some if I genuinely made a mistake, I will apologize and I'll even publicly will apologize and I'll even publicly will apologize and I'll even publicly apologize. And we've done some things

apologize. And we've done some things apologize. And we've done some things like that before. Hey, we probably like that before. Hey, we probably like that before. Hey, we probably shouldn't have done this this way. We're shouldn't have done this this way. We're shouldn't have done this this way. We're we're sorry. When me and my entire we're sorry. When me and my entire we're sorry. When me and my entire pastoral team, which I would view as our pastoral team, which I would view as our pastoral team, which I would view as our elders, all agreed elders, all agreed elders, all agreed that this is what we were going to do. that this is what we were going to do. that this is what we were going to do. And we asked the Holy Spirit if it was And we asked the Holy Spirit if it was And we asked the Holy Spirit if it was the right thing to do. And we felt the the right thing to do. And we felt the the right thing to do. And we felt the Holy Spirit gave gave us a green light. Holy Spirit gave gave us a green light. Holy Spirit gave gave us a green light. I'm not going to now go back just I'm not going to now go back just I'm not going to now go back just because the horde has started DMing me. because the horde has started DMing me. because the horde has started DMing me. Uh because once I do that, now I open Uh because once I do that, now I open Uh because once I do that, now I open myself to a criticism to another horde myself to a criticism to another horde myself to a criticism to another horde of individuals because I'm backtracking of individuals because I'm backtracking of individuals because I'm backtracking and I'm a coward and I can't stand on my and I'm a coward and I can't stand on my and I'm a coward and I can't stand on my two feet. And so for me, I just choose two feet. And so for me, I just choose two feet. And so for me, I just choose to, you know, just make it very simple. to, you know, just make it very simple. to, you know, just make it very simple. I'm sorry that you have that impression. I'm sorry that you have that impression. I'm sorry that you have that impression. That is not what I meant. I love you. If That is not what I meant. I love you. If That is not what I meant. I love you. If you stay at the church, it would be an you stay at the church, it would be an you stay at the church, it would be an honor if you go somewhere. I'd be happy honor if you go somewhere. I'd be happy honor if you go somewhere. I'd be happy to make recommendations that may, you to make recommendations that may, you to make recommendations that may, you know, give you peace. I mean, since know, give you peace. I mean, since know, give you peace. I mean, since COVID, because we got eaten up in 2020 COVID, because we got eaten up in 2020 COVID, because we got eaten up in 2020 as well, I've taught my whole team that as well, I've taught my whole team that as well, I've taught my whole team that our response is we'll respond once if our response is we'll respond once if our response is we'll respond once if people keep pushing at us, then we just people keep pushing at us, then we just people keep pushing at us, then we just say, "We love you. We would love for you say, "We love you. We would love for you say, "We love you. We would love for you to stay, but we would we we're happy to to stay, but we would we we're happy to to stay, but we would we we're happy to make recommendations if if you would make recommendations if if you would make recommendations if if you would like to go somewhere else." Um because like to go somewhere else." Um because like to go somewhere else." Um because we were like we were like we were like >> we were like going on week two with >> we were like going on week two with >> we were like going on week two with people just threads and it was just like people just threads and it was just like people just threads and it was just like we can't we can't do this anymore we can't we can't do this anymore we can't we can't do this anymore because everybody wants to be right.

because everybody wants to be right. because everybody wants to be right. Everyone's going to find a video on Everyone's going to find a video on Everyone's going to find a video on YouTube that agrees with them. It just YouTube that agrees with them. It just YouTube that agrees with them. It just becomes an endless circle um that we becomes an endless circle um that we becomes an endless circle um that we just don't participate in to that degree just don't participate in to that degree just don't participate in to that degree anymore. anymore. anymore. >> That's fascinating. I'd love for all of >> That's fascinating. I'd love for all of >> That's fascinating. I'd love for all of you and Adam you kind of gave us but if you and Adam you kind of gave us but if you and Adam you kind of gave us but if there's more I want to hear more but there's more I want to hear more but there's more I want to hear more but from you know free-for-all like from you know free-for-all like from you know free-for-all like responding to critics I' I'd love to responding to critics I' I'd love to responding to critics I' I'd love to know do you have categories like Adam know do you have categories like Adam know do you have categories like Adam has a couple of categories and then I has a couple of categories and then I has a couple of categories and then I guess the second and deeper part is how guess the second and deeper part is how guess the second and deeper part is how have you learned to deal with that level have you learned to deal with that level have you learned to deal with that level of criticism um who wants to start I'd of criticism um who wants to start I'd of criticism um who wants to start I'd just love to know because y'all have just love to know because y'all have just love to know because y'all have slightly different platforms Ed you're slightly different platforms Ed you're slightly different platforms Ed you're more like me I guess we're uh more like me I guess we're uh more like me I guess we're uh >> you know gig eva or something like that >> you know gig eva or something like that >> you know gig eva or something like that yeah big Eva Yeah. So, I would say too, yeah big Eva Yeah. So, I would say too, yeah big Eva Yeah. So, I would say too, I think one of the things Adam said is I think one of the things Adam said is I think one of the things Adam said is really important um is that you respond really important um is that you respond really important um is that you respond differently to your congregation differently to your congregation differently to your congregation uh than you do to, you know, social uh than you do to, you know, social uh than you do to, you know, social media, which is, you know, sometimes media, which is, you know, sometimes media, which is, you know, sometimes bots or sometimes not. But, um and and I bots or sometimes not. But, um and and I bots or sometimes not. But, um and and I think for for for us, you know, I'm just think for for for us, you know, I'm just think for for for us, you know, I'm just a teaching pastor at my church, so it's a teaching pastor at my church, so it's a teaching pastor at my church, so it's it's probably it's a little different, it's probably it's a little different, it's probably it's a little different, whereas Adam's the lead pastor. But um whereas Adam's the lead pastor. But um whereas Adam's the lead pastor. But um but I do think you as a pastor, my but I do think you as a pastor, my but I do think you as a pastor, my advice to pastors and church leaders advice to pastors and church leaders advice to pastors and church leaders would be that you do owe a different would be that you do owe a different would be that you do owe a different kind of response to people who are are kind of response to people who are are kind of response to people who are are kind of trying to figure these things kind of trying to figure these things kind of trying to figure these things out, trying to walk through these out, trying to walk through these out, trying to walk through these things. And one of the things that that things. And one of the things that that things. And one of the things that that I kind of talk about is when I pastors I kind of talk about is when I pastors I kind of talk about is when I pastors ask me what should they talk about and ask me what should they talk about and ask me what should they talk about and what should we speak up on? And you what should we speak up on? And you what should we speak up on? And you know, I talk about, you know, speak when know, I talk about, you know, speak when know, I talk about, you know, speak when the scripture speaks clearly. Uh speak the scripture speaks clearly. Uh speak the scripture speaks clearly. Uh speak when people are confused. So I think when people are confused. So I think when people are confused. So I think that's one of the things. So, it's not

that's one of the things. So, it's not that's one of the things. So, it's not just I need to say something, you know, just I need to say something, you know, just I need to say something, you know, because I want people to see me saying because I want people to see me saying because I want people to see me saying something. That's what's technically something. That's what's technically something. That's what's technically called virtue signaling. But if your called virtue signaling. But if your called virtue signaling. But if your people are confused, then you can step people are confused, then you can step people are confused, then you can step into and lean into that. But I but I do into and lean into that. But I but I do into and lean into that. But I but I do think like I mean Adams gives example of think like I mean Adams gives example of think like I mean Adams gives example of like you get this people and then the like you get this people and then the like you get this people and then the backlash people and we all saw this backlash people and we all saw this backlash people and we all saw this happen in real time with uh with our happen in real time with uh with our happen in real time with uh with our friend David Platt where you know friend David Platt where you know friend David Platt where you know President Trump uh on the way to his President Trump uh on the way to his President Trump uh on the way to his church said you know uh we'd like to church said you know uh we'd like to church said you know uh we'd like to come like you to pray for him. So he come like you to pray for him. So he come like you to pray for him. So he sort of had folks you he had President sort of had folks you he had President sort of had folks you he had President Trump walk out you know unannounced and Trump walk out you know unannounced and Trump walk out you know unannounced and prayed for him there and um it was I prayed for him there and um it was I prayed for him there and um it was I don't think anyone would would take much don't think anyone would would take much don't think anyone would would take much umbrage with the prayer but then there umbrage with the prayer but then there umbrage with the prayer but then there were significant number of people who were significant number of people who were significant number of people who were bothered that you know without were bothered that you know without were bothered that you know without telling people now to be fair just the telling people now to be fair just the telling people now to be fair just the context was is that they called him on context was is that they called him on context was is that they called him on the way to the church and so then he the way to the church and so then he the way to the church and so then he said he then then he apologized so he said he then then he apologized so he said he then then he apologized so he got people mad at him for praying for got people mad at him for praying for got people mad at him for praying for President Trump and then he apologized President Trump and then he apologized President Trump and then he apologized for not uh you know preparing people I for not uh you know preparing people I for not uh you know preparing people I forget the exact words and then he had a forget the exact words and then he had a forget the exact words and then he had a significant number of people that were significant number of people that were significant number of people that were mad him for apologizing. And and what I mad him for apologizing. And and what I mad him for apologizing. And and what I would say is is if you kind of think would say is is if you kind of think would say is is if you kind of think through more intentionally what and I'm through more intentionally what and I'm through more intentionally what and I'm not saying David I mean you know it's a not saying David I mean you know it's a not saying David I mean you know it's a phone call on the way to the church.

phone call on the way to the church. phone call on the way to the church. It's a whole different thing. Um, but I It's a whole different thing. Um, but I It's a whole different thing. Um, but I would say if you think through and you would say if you think through and you would say if you think through and you know kind of no don't feel the need to know kind of no don't feel the need to know kind of no don't feel the need to say something first and quickly and then say something first and quickly and then say something first and quickly and then you can sort of pastor your congregation you can sort of pastor your congregation you can sort of pastor your congregation even through your comment and then their even through your comment and then their even through your comment and then their response to your comment. I I think response to your comment. I I think response to your comment. I I think that's a way through. But again, we that's a way through. But again, we that's a way through. But again, we don't live in a culture where where we don't live in a culture where where we don't live in a culture where where we have uh you know we we can't rapidly we have uh you know we we can't rapidly we have uh you know we we can't rapidly we can't slow down. We want rapid response. can't slow down. We want rapid response. can't slow down. We want rapid response. And I saw one social media poster. I And I saw one social media poster. I And I saw one social media poster. I actually saved a screenshot of this. And actually saved a screenshot of this. And actually saved a screenshot of this. And basically saying if your pastor doesn't basically saying if your pastor doesn't basically saying if your pastor doesn't mention ICE this Sunday, uh against ICE mention ICE this Sunday, uh against ICE mention ICE this Sunday, uh against ICE this Sunday, find a new church. And then this Sunday, find a new church. And then this Sunday, find a new church. And then on the same thread right afterwards, on the same thread right afterwards, on the same thread right afterwards, because it must have my algorithm must because it must have my algorithm must because it must have my algorithm must have been looking at ICE in Minneapolis. have been looking at ICE in Minneapolis. have been looking at ICE in Minneapolis. Uh cuz I was doing this I was doing this Uh cuz I was doing this I was doing this Uh cuz I was doing this I was doing this interview for uh um a news a news interview for uh um a news a news interview for uh um a news a news station. And the right after it says, station. And the right after it says, station. And the right after it says, "If your pastor doesn't support ICE this "If your pastor doesn't support ICE this "If your pastor doesn't support ICE this Sunday, you should find a new church." Sunday, you should find a new church." Sunday, you should find a new church." And I would say to you that I'm I don't And I would say to you that I'm I don't And I would say to you that I'm I don't think your people are asking you for think your people are asking you for think your people are asking you for guidance on how to respond to these guidance on how to respond to these guidance on how to respond to these things. And if they are, that's a local things. And if they are, that's a local things. And if they are, that's a local pastoral congregational conversation. So pastoral congregational conversation. So pastoral congregational conversation. So you articulate it. I would say that our you articulate it. I would say that our you articulate it. I would say that our church, we just did a whole uh Sunday on church, we just did a whole uh Sunday on church, we just did a whole uh Sunday on biblical teaching about immigration. So biblical teaching about immigration. So biblical teaching about immigration. So So I I think the the the wisdom and a So I I think the the the wisdom and a So I I think the the the wisdom and a slower pace would help us. But then back slower pace would help us. But then back slower pace would help us. But then back to what Adam said, you got to then to what Adam said, you got to then to what Adam said, you got to then pastor people through uh their responses pastor people through uh their responses pastor people through uh their responses and and you know, Sharon's written on and and you know, Sharon's written on and and you know, Sharon's written on some of these things too about how we

some of these things too about how we some of these things too about how we approach some of these controversial approach some of these controversial approach some of these controversial issues that I think is really helpful as issues that I think is really helpful as issues that I think is really helpful as well. But but that that would be my well. But but that that would be my well. But but that that would be my exhortation for pastors and church exhortation for pastors and church exhortation for pastors and church leaders. leaders. leaders. >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by Switcher Studio. Do you want to take Switcher Studio. Do you want to take Switcher Studio. Do you want to take your church's live stream to the next your church's live stream to the next your church's live stream to the next level, especially as you head into level, especially as you head into level, especially as you head into Easter? Switcher makes it simple. It Easter? Switcher makes it simple. It Easter? Switcher makes it simple. It lets you grab your iPhones, iPads, lets you grab your iPhones, iPads, lets you grab your iPhones, iPads, cameras, sync them all together, and cameras, sync them all together, and cameras, sync them all together, and switch between angles live without switch between angles live without switch between angles live without expensive, complicated gear. You can add expensive, complicated gear. You can add expensive, complicated gear. You can add scripture, lyrics, and graphics on scripture, lyrics, and graphics on scripture, lyrics, and graphics on screen to help your congregation engage, screen to help your congregation engage, screen to help your congregation engage, whether it's a regular Sunday or Easter whether it's a regular Sunday or Easter whether it's a regular Sunday or Easter service with more guests tuning in. And service with more guests tuning in. And service with more guests tuning in. And then you can stream to your website and then you can stream to your website and then you can stream to your website and all the major social media platforms at all the major social media platforms at all the major social media platforms at the same time. Plus, Switcher is easy the same time. Plus, Switcher is easy the same time. Plus, Switcher is easy enough for pastors, volunteers, or even enough for pastors, volunteers, or even enough for pastors, volunteers, or even students to jump in and run the stream. students to jump in and run the stream. students to jump in and run the stream. Probably especially students, right? Probably especially students, right? Probably especially students, right? They're sharp. All in all, Switcher They're sharp. All in all, Switcher They're sharp. All in all, Switcher helps you empower your volunteers, helps you empower your volunteers, helps you empower your volunteers, produce a polished online presence, and produce a polished online presence, and produce a polished online presence, and grow your community without a big grow your community without a big grow your community without a big budget. And you can get an additional $5 budget. And you can get an additional $5 budget. And you can get an additional $5 off at checkout when you use the code off at checkout when you use the code off at checkout when you use the code carry 5. So, visit switcherstudio.com carry 5. So, visit switcherstudio.com carry 5. So, visit switcherstudio.com to learn more. That's to learn more. That's to learn more. That's switcherstudio.com.

switcherstudio.com. switcherstudio.com. Sharon, how about you? I I want to know Sharon, how about you? I I want to know Sharon, how about you? I I want to know like when you know your inbox or DMs like when you know your inbox or DMs like when you know your inbox or DMs start to blow up, what what's it like? start to blow up, what what's it like? start to blow up, what what's it like? What are you doing? What are your rules? What are you doing? What are your rules? What are you doing? What are your rules? >> So, I I'm with Adam and Ed. Like the >> So, I I'm with Adam and Ed. Like the >> So, I I'm with Adam and Ed. Like the criticism that I get online. criticism that I get online. criticism that I get online. I give zero time to it. That's not my I give zero time to it. That's not my I give zero time to it. That's not my primary calling. It's not to pastor the primary calling. It's not to pastor the primary calling. It's not to pastor the internet. My primary calling is to internet. My primary calling is to internet. My primary calling is to pastor my church. pastor my church. pastor my church. >> And so I don't give a lot of really my >> And so I don't give a lot of really my >> And so I don't give a lot of really my primary posture towards social media is primary posture towards social media is primary posture towards social media is and and I would say to the average and and I would say to the average and and I would say to the average pastor listening, your role is actually pastor listening, your role is actually pastor listening, your role is actually not to show up on social media. Like I I not to show up on social media. Like I I not to show up on social media. Like I I just before we got on this call, I got a just before we got on this call, I got a just before we got on this call, I got a text from a friend of mine in the area text from a friend of mine in the area text from a friend of mine in the area who said they've been getting a lot of who said they've been getting a lot of who said they've been getting a lot of criticism for not posting on social criticism for not posting on social criticism for not posting on social media. And I just don't think that that media. And I just don't think that that media. And I just don't think that that is a pastor's primary call. If you are is a pastor's primary call. If you are is a pastor's primary call. If you are called, if if you feel like this is an called, if if you feel like this is an called, if if you feel like this is an area where you you feel like God has area where you you feel like God has area where you you feel like God has given you influence or clarity or maybe given you influence or clarity or maybe given you influence or clarity or maybe social media is just fun for you, social media is just fun for you, social media is just fun for you, whatever it is, I think the pastor's whatever it is, I think the pastor's whatever it is, I think the pastor's primary call is not to post, you know, primary call is not to post, you know, primary call is not to post, you know, this is the right way to think or to this is the right way to think or to this is the right way to think or to show how to dunk on, you know, people show how to dunk on, you know, people show how to dunk on, you know, people who think differently than you. your the who think differently than you. your the who think differently than you. your the way to approach that is to model a way to approach that is to model a way to approach that is to model a healthy godly relationship with social healthy godly relationship with social healthy godly relationship with social media. And so that means not being quick media. And so that means not being quick media. And so that means not being quick to speak all the time on social media.

to speak all the time on social media. to speak all the time on social media. It means not being reactive all the It means not being reactive all the It means not being reactive all the time. And so modeling for your people time. And so modeling for your people time. And so modeling for your people like this is actually how to be a like this is actually how to be a like this is actually how to be a faithful witness in this space. So faithful witness in this space. So faithful witness in this space. So that's just a side note. But going back that's just a side note. But going back that's just a side note. But going back to dealing with critics, one thing that to dealing with critics, one thing that to dealing with critics, one thing that is actually also very helpful for me and is actually also very helpful for me and is actually also very helpful for me and Adam sort of alluded to this already and Adam sort of alluded to this already and Adam sort of alluded to this already and I I think Ed has alluded to this as I I think Ed has alluded to this as I I think Ed has alluded to this as well, the importance of having wise well, the importance of having wise well, the importance of having wise counselors. So one one thing I've been counselors. So one one thing I've been counselors. So one one thing I've been chewing on a lot is how much the chewing on a lot is how much the chewing on a lot is how much the algorithm disciples us in in a way it algorithm disciples us in in a way it algorithm disciples us in in a way it reminds me of Ephesians 4. So then we reminds me of Ephesians 4. So then we reminds me of Ephesians 4. So then we will no longer be infants tossed back will no longer be infants tossed back will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves and blown here and forth by the waves and blown here and forth by the waves and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and and there by every wind of teaching and and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people by the cunning and craftiness of people by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. So if I in their deceitful scheming. So if I in their deceitful scheming. So if I could describe disciplehip by algorithm could describe disciplehip by algorithm could describe disciplehip by algorithm that is what I would describe. And that is what I would describe. And that is what I would describe. And what's fascinating to me is the broader what's fascinating to me is the broader what's fascinating to me is the broader context of like how we resist that context of like how we resist that context of like how we resist that influence is actually not through influence is actually not through influence is actually not through believing the right thing. The context believing the right thing. The context believing the right thing. The context of how we resist that is by being the of how we resist that is by being the of how we resist that is by being the mature body of Christ. So this this mature body of Christ. So this this mature body of Christ. So this this appears within a a broader treatment of appears within a a broader treatment of appears within a a broader treatment of how to be the church. And to me that how to be the church. And to me that how to be the church. And to me that seems like that is actually how we lead seems like that is actually how we lead seems like that is actually how we lead well in this moment where even as well in this moment where even as well in this moment where even as pastors we are discipled by the pastors we are discipled by the pastors we are discipled by the algorithm is to really lean into this algorithm is to really lean into this algorithm is to really lean into this superpower that we have of the church of superpower that we have of the church of superpower that we have of the church of of the incarnational community of God.

of the incarnational community of God. of the incarnational community of God. And so practically speaking, what that And so practically speaking, what that And so practically speaking, what that has meant for me is obviously we have has meant for me is obviously we have has meant for me is obviously we have elders. I I also vet things by our staff elders. I I also vet things by our staff elders. I I also vet things by our staff as well. I also have relationships with as well. I also have relationships with as well. I also have relationships with other pastors here in our city because other pastors here in our city because other pastors here in our city because we are everything we're doing is we are everything we're doing is we are everything we're doing is contextualized to this region. And so contextualized to this region. And so contextualized to this region. And so I'm going to be reaching out to pastors I'm going to be reaching out to pastors I'm going to be reaching out to pastors who are in slightly different traditions who are in slightly different traditions who are in slightly different traditions than I am, who are different races than than I am, who are different races than than I am, who are different races than I am, who have different life I am, who have different life I am, who have different life experiences to ask, how are you experiences to ask, how are you experiences to ask, how are you pastoring your community in this moment? pastoring your community in this moment? pastoring your community in this moment? Getting that input. Then I'm also Getting that input. Then I'm also Getting that input. Then I'm also listening to pastors that I have listening to pastors that I have listening to pastors that I have relationships all over the country as relationships all over the country as relationships all over the country as well. And so I'm collecting all of this well. And so I'm collecting all of this well. And so I'm collecting all of this information and I I'm guided often by information and I I'm guided often by information and I I'm guided often by the proverb that plans fail for lack of the proverb that plans fail for lack of the proverb that plans fail for lack of counsel, but in the presence of many counsel, but in the presence of many counsel, but in the presence of many adviserss they succeed. And so I do all adviserss they succeed. And so I do all adviserss they succeed. And so I do all that so that when someone does come to that so that when someone does come to that so that when someone does come to me and say, "Why did you say this?" You me and say, "Why did you say this?" You me and say, "Why did you say this?" You know, I think you said it because of know, I think you said it because of know, I think you said it because of this. I don't want to be defensive this. I don't want to be defensive this. I don't want to be defensive toward them, but I do want to give them toward them, but I do want to give them toward them, but I do want to give them my why and to say, I want you to my why and to say, I want you to my why and to say, I want you to understand this is this is how I am understand this is this is how I am understand this is this is how I am attempting to lead with with wisdom is attempting to lead with with wisdom is attempting to lead with with wisdom is by seeking wise counsel and and by seeking wise counsel and and by seeking wise counsel and and listening to voices that are going to listening to voices that are going to listening to voices that are going to identify my blind spots and and help me identify my blind spots and and help me identify my blind spots and and help me to see this in a way that I might not to see this in a way that I might not to see this in a way that I might not see on my own. And and these are are see on my own. And and these are are see on my own. And and these are are people that have different perspectives people that have different perspectives people that have different perspectives than I do, but they love God's word and than I do, but they love God's word and than I do, but they love God's word and they love Jesus and they submit their

they love Jesus and they submit their they love Jesus and they submit their life to his teaching. And so I'm not life to his teaching. And so I'm not life to his teaching. And so I'm not always going to get it right, but I do always going to get it right, but I do always going to get it right, but I do feel like I'm not just reacting to feel like I'm not just reacting to feel like I'm not just reacting to everything that is happening. I am everything that is happening. I am everything that is happening. I am seeking wise counsel. And I want to seeking wise counsel. And I want to seeking wise counsel. And I want to model that for my people that instead of model that for my people that instead of model that for my people that instead of you just venting on the internet, who you just venting on the internet, who you just venting on the internet, who are those people for you? so that you are those people for you? so that you are those people for you? so that you can be the church in this moment as can be the church in this moment as can be the church in this moment as well. well. well. >> How are you coping with the emotional >> How are you coping with the emotional >> How are you coping with the emotional impact? Because I don't care how many impact? Because I don't care how many impact? Because I don't care how many laps around the track we've had, you laps around the track we've had, you laps around the track we've had, you know, criticism still stings at some know, criticism still stings at some know, criticism still stings at some level. Uh Adam, you know, you had a level. Uh Adam, you know, you had a level. Uh Adam, you know, you had a whole life in social media before you whole life in social media before you whole life in social media before you became a pastor. You ran a very very became a pastor. You ran a very very became a pastor. You ran a very very successful marketing branding company, successful marketing branding company, successful marketing branding company, etc., etc. But I I' I'd love to know, etc., etc. But I I' I'd love to know, etc., etc. But I I' I'd love to know, you know, what does it do to you? And you know, what does it do to you? And you know, what does it do to you? And how do you get through it so you live to how do you get through it so you live to how do you get through it so you live to see another day and say, "Okay, I'm not see another day and say, "Okay, I'm not see another day and say, "Okay, I'm not going to be one of the people who quit. going to be one of the people who quit. going to be one of the people who quit. I'm not just going to go silent. I'm not I'm not just going to go silent. I'm not I'm not just going to go silent. I'm not going to just retire and sell insurance going to just retire and sell insurance going to just retire and sell insurance or, you know, whatever whatever that is, or, you know, whatever whatever that is, or, you know, whatever whatever that is, but I'm going to stay in the fight."

but I'm going to stay in the fight." but I'm going to stay in the fight." Like, what do you do to manage the Like, what do you do to manage the Like, what do you do to manage the inevitable hurt that comes when you get inevitable hurt that comes when you get inevitable hurt that comes when you get criticized? criticized? criticized? >> Yeah. And I think in my circle, in my >> Yeah. And I think in my circle, in my >> Yeah. And I think in my circle, in my context, at least people who my, you context, at least people who my, you context, at least people who my, you know, people who know me, when when know, people who know me, when when know, people who know me, when when people go viral for the negative people go viral for the negative people go viral for the negative reasons, if they know of me, I tend to reasons, if they know of me, I tend to reasons, if they know of me, I tend to be one of the first calls like, "Adam, be one of the first calls like, "Adam, be one of the first calls like, "Adam, what should we do? How should we what should we do? How should we what should we do? How should we approach this?" Because we've gone viral approach this?" Because we've gone viral approach this?" Because we've gone viral pretty regularly. And I have a podcast pretty regularly. And I have a podcast pretty regularly. And I have a podcast that goes somewhat viral pretty that goes somewhat viral pretty that goes somewhat viral pretty regularly. And so, uh, you know, some regularly. And so, uh, you know, some regularly. And so, uh, you know, some things I'm proud of what was said or things I'm proud of what was said or things I'm proud of what was said or other times I'm like, "Oh, I'd probably other times I'm like, "Oh, I'd probably other times I'm like, "Oh, I'd probably say it differently." You know, but say it differently." You know, but say it differently." You know, but whatever it is. So yeah, like you said, whatever it is. So yeah, like you said, whatever it is. So yeah, like you said, you know, what people say in DMs, it you know, what people say in DMs, it you know, what people say in DMs, it depending on what it is, it it hurts. Um depending on what it is, it it hurts. Um depending on what it is, it it hurts. Um it hurts. You know, I have a marriage it hurts. You know, I have a marriage it hurts. You know, I have a marriage podcast with my wife that goes pretty podcast with my wife that goes pretty podcast with my wife that goes pretty viral pretty regularly when people say viral pretty regularly when people say viral pretty regularly when people say something about my wife. Obviously, you something about my wife. Obviously, you something about my wife. Obviously, you want to be on a defensive mode, want to be on a defensive mode, want to be on a defensive mode, especially if it's something about her especially if it's something about her especially if it's something about her appearance, something vanity or appearance, something vanity or appearance, something vanity or whatever. And so that's those emotions whatever. And so that's those emotions whatever. And so that's those emotions uh happen regular. If someone's talking uh happen regular. If someone's talking uh happen regular. If someone's talking about, you know, my father or something, about, you know, my father or something, about, you know, my father or something, obviously I want to defend as a son. But obviously I want to defend as a son. But obviously I want to defend as a son. But uh more than anything, my first approach uh more than anything, my first approach uh more than anything, my first approach and you know Sharon quoted Ephesians 4, and you know Sharon quoted Ephesians 4, and you know Sharon quoted Ephesians 4, but you know, Ephesians 1 and 2, my but you know, Ephesians 1 and 2, my but you know, Ephesians 1 and 2, my first approach is my identity is in first approach is my identity is in first approach is my identity is in Christ. And I confess that and I remind Christ. And I confess that and I remind Christ. And I confess that and I remind myself that all the time is that my myself that all the time is that my myself that all the time is that my identity is not in my performance. My identity is not in my performance. My identity is not in my performance. My identity is not in my influence, my identity is not in my influence, my identity is not in my influence, my platform or anything like that. Um I've platform or anything like that. Um I've platform or anything like that. Um I've already been approved by the father. And already been approved by the father. And already been approved by the father. And so I got to remind myself that all the

so I got to remind myself that all the so I got to remind myself that all the time. Uh because I mean people aren't time. Uh because I mean people aren't time. Uh because I mean people aren't just in my DMs. people. I right when I'm just in my DMs. people. I right when I'm just in my DMs. people. I right when I'm done preaching, I go right to the stage done preaching, I go right to the stage done preaching, I go right to the stage and most weeks I say, "Hey, if you want and most weeks I say, "Hey, if you want and most weeks I say, "Hey, if you want to come say hello, you know, come say to come say hello, you know, come say to come say hello, you know, come say hello." And not everyone's there for hello." And not everyone's there for hello." And not everyone's there for Pastor Adam. Sometimes people are there Pastor Adam. Sometimes people are there Pastor Adam. Sometimes people are there for like internet, you know, podcaster for like internet, you know, podcaster for like internet, you know, podcaster Adam. And sometimes they want to say Adam. And sometimes they want to say Adam. And sometimes they want to say really nice things and they want really nice things and they want really nice things and they want pictures or whatever and other times pictures or whatever and other times pictures or whatever and other times they want to share with me their two they want to share with me their two they want to share with me their two cents because I'm available. And so cents because I'm available. And so cents because I'm available. And so sometimes people say things that they do sometimes people say things that they do sometimes people say things that they do affect me and hurt me. So here's how affect me and hurt me. So here's how affect me and hurt me. So here's how just going into practically then here's just going into practically then here's just going into practically then here's how I process it for me outside of my how I process it for me outside of my how I process it for me outside of my wife. I have four tiers of influence. wife. I have four tiers of influence. wife. I have four tiers of influence. And so I have I have what I call And so I have I have what I call And so I have I have what I call brothers. These are and these are these brothers. These are and these are these brothers. These are and these are these are three individuals in my life that I are three individuals in my life that I are three individuals in my life that I one's my actual blood brother but two one's my actual blood brother but two one's my actual blood brother but two aren't my blood brothers. And these are aren't my blood brothers. And these are aren't my blood brothers. And these are guys that know everything about me. They guys that know everything about me. They guys that know everything about me. They know everything about my marriage. They know everything about my marriage. They know everything about my marriage. They have my location shared with them. They have my location shared with them. They have my location shared with them. They you know like they know my whole life. you know like they know my whole life. you know like they know my whole life. Uh then I have friends. These are eight Uh then I have friends. These are eight Uh then I have friends. These are eight guys that I spend regular time with that guys that I spend regular time with that guys that I spend regular time with that I expose myself to. We have fun I expose myself to. We have fun I expose myself to. We have fun together. We pray together. We do a lot together. We pray together. We do a lot together. We pray together. We do a lot of other things. Then I have mentors and of other things. Then I have mentors and of other things. Then I have mentors and fathers. My mentors are about seven or fathers. My mentors are about seven or fathers. My mentors are about seven or eight people that I look to that I get eight people that I look to that I get eight people that I look to that I get time on the phone or whatever. And then time on the phone or whatever. And then time on the phone or whatever. And then father figures are about two or three father figures are about two or three father figures are about two or three people that I view them as fathers.

people that I view them as fathers. people that I view them as fathers. Whatever they say, I do. And um I do Whatever they say, I do. And um I do Whatever they say, I do. And um I do that mentally for me. my dad being one that mentally for me. my dad being one that mentally for me. my dad being one of them who was a pas you know who who of them who was a pas you know who who of them who was a pas you know who who was a senior pastor. So for me, when I'm was a senior pastor. So for me, when I'm was a senior pastor. So for me, when I'm processing something, a decision I made processing something, a decision I made processing something, a decision I made that maybe went public or something that that maybe went public or something that that maybe went public or something that went viral, if it's really affecting me, went viral, if it's really affecting me, went viral, if it's really affecting me, I'll actually go through those four I'll actually go through those four I'll actually go through those four layers of talking to those individuals. layers of talking to those individuals. layers of talking to those individuals. Hey, speak into is there anything I need Hey, speak into is there anything I need Hey, speak into is there anything I need to learn from this? Is there anything I to learn from this? Is there anything I to learn from this? Is there anything I can do better that you know the the this can do better that you know the the this can do better that you know the the this you know what happened with Charlie you know what happened with Charlie you know what happened with Charlie Kirk? There's, you know, two individuals Kirk? There's, you know, two individuals Kirk? There's, you know, two individuals that I got um a lot of great wisdom that I got um a lot of great wisdom that I got um a lot of great wisdom from. One being Gerald Brooks in Texas from. One being Gerald Brooks in Texas from. One being Gerald Brooks in Texas and another being Lee Domain from and another being Lee Domain from and another being Lee Domain from Highlands. And both of them just poured Highlands. And both of them just poured Highlands. And both of them just poured into me and said, "Adam, this is what I into me and said, "Adam, this is what I into me and said, "Adam, this is what I encourage you to do. This is what I encourage you to do. This is what I encourage you to do. This is what I encourage you to don't do. Here's where encourage you to don't do. Here's where encourage you to don't do. Here's where you need to." And I just I just go, you need to." And I just I just go, you need to." And I just I just go, "Yeah, I'm going to be obedient. I know "Yeah, I'm going to be obedient. I know "Yeah, I'm going to be obedient. I know I'm a young man. I know I'm in my I'm a young man. I know I'm in my I'm a young man. I know I'm in my mid-30s. I know I can still make a lot mid-30s. I know I can still make a lot mid-30s. I know I can still make a lot of dumb mistakes. And so I need to make of dumb mistakes. And so I need to make of dumb mistakes. And so I need to make sure that I'm always going for me. Those sure that I'm always going for me. Those sure that I'm always going for me. Those three fil those four filters of three fil those four filters of three fil those four filters of influence that help me go, okay, they influence that help me go, okay, they influence that help me go, okay, they said I'm okay. They said, "Adam, you're said I'm okay. They said, "Adam, you're said I'm okay. They said, "Adam, you're good. What do you like, don't" or good. What do you like, don't" or good. What do you like, don't" or they've said, "Man, that was a little, they've said, "Man, that was a little, they've said, "Man, that was a little, you know, it was a little rough. You you know, it was a little rough. You you know, it was a little rough. You should probably." And then now I go, should probably." And then now I go, should probably." And then now I go, "Okay, I just got to learn and grow."

"Okay, I just got to learn and grow." "Okay, I just got to learn and grow." So, those are kind of my my steps that So, those are kind of my my steps that So, those are kind of my my steps that I'm regularly processing outside of I'm regularly processing outside of I'm regularly processing outside of naturally my wife. But, you know, my naturally my wife. But, you know, my naturally my wife. But, you know, my wife's my cheerleader. She's nine times wife's my cheerleader. She's nine times wife's my cheerleader. She's nine times out of 10 she can be like, "Oh, don't out of 10 she can be like, "Oh, don't out of 10 she can be like, "Oh, don't worry." You know, these brothers and worry." You know, these brothers and worry." You know, these brothers and others, they're like, "No, they they others, they're like, "No, they they others, they're like, "No, they they really will sharpen me if I need to be really will sharpen me if I need to be really will sharpen me if I need to be sharpened." sharpened." sharpened." >> What about the rest of you? What what >> What about the rest of you? What what >> What about the rest of you? What what does it do to the inside of you and how does it do to the inside of you and how does it do to the inside of you and how do you respond? Because I think, you do you respond? Because I think, you do you respond? Because I think, you know, I've been at this for a while. You know, I've been at this for a while. You know, I've been at this for a while. You might say something once a year or every might say something once a year or every might say something once a year or every few through few years that kind of few through few years that kind of few through few years that kind of throws people into a fit and now it's throws people into a fit and now it's throws people into a fit and now it's like woo could be daily, weekly, like woo could be daily, weekly, like woo could be daily, weekly, monthly. monthly. monthly. >> Yeah. So, I'm I'm just going to be a >> Yeah. So, I'm I'm just going to be a >> Yeah. So, I'm I'm just going to be a broken record, you know, being the broken record, you know, being the broken record, you know, being the church again. I I think that's church again. I I think that's church again. I I think that's essentially what Adam was just essentially what Adam was just essentially what Adam was just describing, like connecting with your describing, like connecting with your describing, like connecting with your people. people. people. I have my own set of people that I can I have my own set of people that I can I have my own set of people that I can text, you know, any time of day and tell text, you know, any time of day and tell text, you know, any time of day and tell them I'm not doing well and I need you them I'm not doing well and I need you them I'm not doing well and I need you to pray for me. I am reminded of one of to pray for me. I am reminded of one of to pray for me. I am reminded of one of my mentors recently. We'd had a number my mentors recently. We'd had a number my mentors recently. We'd had a number of people leave in succession and I was of people leave in succession and I was of people leave in succession and I was not doing well. And I called her and she not doing well. And I called her and she not doing well. And I called her and she said to me, said to me, said to me, you know, and someone had told her this you know, and someone had told her this you know, and someone had told her this this statistic about how the average this statistic about how the average this statistic about how the average person in their lifetime loses seven person in their lifetime loses seven person in their lifetime loses seven significant relationships. Like they significant relationships. Like they significant relationships. Like they have seven significant relationship have seven significant relationship have seven significant relationship ruptures, but the average pastor loses ruptures, but the average pastor loses ruptures, but the average pastor loses seven people a year. And that really put seven people a year. And that really put seven people a year. And that really put things into perspective of the

things into perspective of the things into perspective of the catastrophic effect that this can have catastrophic effect that this can have catastrophic effect that this can have on you especially in times of of turmoil on you especially in times of of turmoil on you especially in times of of turmoil when that because it's not always that when that because it's not always that when that because it's not always that intense but when it is that intense that intense but when it is that intense that intense but when it is that intense that was that kind of rightsized like oh this was that kind of rightsized like oh this was that kind of rightsized like oh this is actually a very big deal and so I is actually a very big deal and so I is actually a very big deal and so I would say too if you are finding like would say too if you are finding like would say too if you are finding like you're kind of hitting the wall like you you're kind of hitting the wall like you you're kind of hitting the wall like you have all the tools all the spiritual have all the tools all the spiritual have all the tools all the spiritual tools all the resources like you're tools all the resources like you're tools all the resources like you're doing everything right, you're doing everything right, you're doing everything right, you're sabbathing, you're you're taking care of sabbathing, you're you're taking care of sabbathing, you're you're taking care of yourself, and you're still sort of yourself, and you're still sort of yourself, and you're still sort of hitting a ceiling, I would say you need hitting a ceiling, I would say you need hitting a ceiling, I would say you need to go to a counselor. Um, just to add to go to a counselor. Um, just to add to go to a counselor. Um, just to add that as well, like there there might that as well, like there there might that as well, like there there might actually be a mental health piece that actually be a mental health piece that actually be a mental health piece that needs to be addressed because this is needs to be addressed because this is needs to be addressed because this is really, really hard. But then the other really, really hard. But then the other really, really hard. But then the other thing, and I've mentioned this the last thing, and I've mentioned this the last thing, and I've mentioned this the last time I was on your podcast, Carrie, and time I was on your podcast, Carrie, and time I was on your podcast, Carrie, and I'm just going to mention it again I'm just going to mention it again I'm just going to mention it again because I really, really believe in this because I really, really believe in this because I really, really believe in this is forgiveness. that this was such a key is forgiveness. that this was such a key is forgiveness. that this was such a key piece of Jesus's ministry that he piece of Jesus's ministry that he piece of Jesus's ministry that he embodied and and showed for us to how we embodied and and showed for us to how we embodied and and showed for us to how we love our our enemies, how we love people love our our enemies, how we love people love our our enemies, how we love people is by forgiving them. And for me is by forgiving them. And for me is by forgiving them. And for me personally, that has been a necessary personally, that has been a necessary personally, that has been a necessary regular practice. Like not everyone who regular practice. Like not everyone who regular practice. Like not everyone who wounds me necessarily wronged me, but in wounds me necessarily wronged me, but in wounds me necessarily wronged me, but in the times where they did, I need to work the times where they did, I need to work the times where they did, I need to work through that with Jesus. And that has through that with Jesus. And that has through that with Jesus. And that has been really important for me.

been really important for me. been really important for me. >> Ed, tell me about you. I mean, first of >> Ed, tell me about you. I mean, first of >> Ed, tell me about you. I mean, first of all, I want to know, does Ed Stzer have all, I want to know, does Ed Stzer have all, I want to know, does Ed Stzer have feelings? So, that's the first thing feelings? So, that's the first thing feelings? So, that's the first thing because you're so, you know, because you're so, you know, because you're so, you know, intellectual. intellectual. intellectual. >> I have feelings. I don't know what you >> I have feelings. I don't know what you >> I have feelings. I don't know what you >> Wow. No, I mean, you're so you're so >> Wow. No, I mean, you're so you're so >> Wow. No, I mean, you're so you're so scholarly. I mean, really, you write scholarly. I mean, really, you write scholarly. I mean, really, you write academically, but I, you know, there's a academically, but I, you know, there's a academically, but I, you know, there's a there's there's there's >> there's stuff inside of us that that >> there's stuff inside of us that that >> there's stuff inside of us that that hurts when we get criticized. What What hurts when we get criticized. What What hurts when we get criticized. What What do you do, Ed? do you do, Ed? do you do, Ed? >> Yeah. I mean, part of it is you sort of >> Yeah. I mean, part of it is you sort of >> Yeah. I mean, part of it is you sort of get used to it. I mean, I've been in get used to it. I mean, I've been in get used to it. I mean, I've been in this space saying things that people this space saying things that people this space saying things that people disagree with. Um, you know, I don't disagree with. Um, you know, I don't disagree with. Um, you know, I don't know, 15 years. And so, I would say that know, 15 years. And so, I would say that know, 15 years. And so, I would say that like I was talking to one person, you'd like I was talking to one person, you'd like I was talking to one person, you'd actually know his name. He sort of actually know his name. He sort of actually know his name. He sort of became very well-known, wrote a book, became very well-known, wrote a book, became very well-known, wrote a book, and he's like, I just people are yelling and he's like, I just people are yelling and he's like, I just people are yelling at me all the time. And it's like if at me all the time. And it's like if at me all the time. And it's like if you're kind of just emerged into sort of you're kind of just emerged into sort of you're kind of just emerged into sort of some, you know, a national voice um this some, you know, a national voice um this some, you know, a national voice um this year, you'd be like, oh my gosh, this is year, you'd be like, oh my gosh, this is year, you'd be like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. But if you sort of like, it's crazy. But if you sort of like, it's crazy. But if you sort of like, it's like the frog in the kettle, I guess. like the frog in the kettle, I guess. like the frog in the kettle, I guess. It's just been, you know, so it just It's just been, you know, so it just It's just been, you know, so it just over time, you know, for me, I do have over time, you know, for me, I do have over time, you know, for me, I do have sort of a framework that I try to use sort of a framework that I try to use sort of a framework that I try to use and I Adam already like I want to put my and I Adam already like I want to put my and I Adam already like I want to put my identity in Christ. So that's kind of identity in Christ. So that's kind of identity in Christ. So that's kind of where I start. So if people are are mad where I start. So if people are are mad where I start. So if people are are mad or unhappy, I start there. Um, that's my or unhappy, I start there. Um, that's my or unhappy, I start there. Um, that's my first concern is I'm in Christ. But then first concern is I'm in Christ. But then first concern is I'm in Christ. But then my second level or layer is my second level or layer is my second level or layer is accountability and community. So this is accountability and community. So this is accountability and community. So this is really important. I deeply care what my really important. I deeply care what my really important. I deeply care what my the elders at my church uh think about the elders at my church uh think about the elders at my church uh think about my leadership, my the words, what I my leadership, my the words, what I my leadership, my the words, what I write, what I say. I deeply care about write, what I say. I deeply care about write, what I say. I deeply care about what my um what my uh my board says. You what my um what my uh my board says. You what my um what my uh my board says. You know, I'm accountable to a board. Like

know, I'm accountable to a board. Like know, I'm accountable to a board. Like so I'm not accountable to, you know, I'm so I'm not accountable to, you know, I'm so I'm not accountable to, you know, I'm not accountable to Twitter. I'm not accountable to Twitter. I'm not accountable to Twitter. I'm accountable to a board of trustees. And accountable to a board of trustees. And accountable to a board of trustees. And so I think that sort of like all right. so I think that sort of like all right. so I think that sort of like all right. So and if you don't have any So and if you don't have any So and if you don't have any accountability, then it's a little accountability, then it's a little accountability, then it's a little different. So I can say in my case, you different. So I can say in my case, you different. So I can say in my case, you know, like Eric Guyger is my pastor, know, like Eric Guyger is my pastor, know, like Eric Guyger is my pastor, like like you know, we've been friends like like you know, we've been friends like like you know, we've been friends for close friends for 15 years. I can for close friends for 15 years. I can for close friends for 15 years. I can say I'm accountable to him as my pastor, say I'm accountable to him as my pastor, say I'm accountable to him as my pastor, but then I kind of have four things. but then I kind of have four things. but then I kind of have four things. I'll just go through them quickly. I'll just go through them quickly. I'll just go through them quickly. Identity in Christ, accountability and Identity in Christ, accountability and Identity in Christ, accountability and community, and then charity and community, and then charity and community, and then charity and criticism. I I actually I want to turn criticism. I I actually I want to turn criticism. I I actually I want to turn my critics into my teachers. There are my critics into my teachers. There are my critics into my teachers. There are things that they are right about. And things that they are right about. And things that they are right about. And then you know part of the challenge is then you know part of the challenge is then you know part of the challenge is in the last you know particularly as in the last you know particularly as in the last you know particularly as social media have gotten so toxic there social media have gotten so toxic there social media have gotten so toxic there are things just that that you just you are things just that that you just you are things just that that you just you look at and say you know I've looked at look at and say you know I've looked at look at and say you know I've looked at that I've looked at my heart I did the that I've looked at my heart I did the that I've looked at my heart I did the right thing etc etc. Um, and then I the right thing etc etc. Um, and then I the right thing etc etc. Um, and then I the last thing is I just think it's last thing is I just think it's last thing is I just think it's important to have fidelity with courage. important to have fidelity with courage. important to have fidelity with courage. Like I I am not like I right now because Like I I am not like I right now because Like I I am not like I right now because I'm leading a large organization, you I'm leading a large organization, you I'm leading a large organization, you know, I actually write less in some of know, I actually write less in some of know, I actually write less in some of the the you know, I used to be much more the the you know, I used to be much more the the you know, I used to be much more of a of a cultural commentator. Um, and of a of a cultural commentator. Um, and of a of a cultural commentator. Um, and now, you know, since, you know, things now, you know, since, you know, things now, you know, since, you know, things I'm here at Talbid and and it just it I'm here at Talbid and and it just it I'm here at Talbid and and it just it takes a lot more of my time. I do less takes a lot more of my time. I do less takes a lot more of my time. I do less of that, but I still do that. And and I of that, but I still do that. And and I of that, but I still do that. And and I think at the end of the day, if the end think at the end of the day, if the end think at the end of the day, if the end result of all the people being mad is result of all the people being mad is result of all the people being mad is that we sort of don't say important true that we sort of don't say important true that we sort of don't say important true things uh because we're sort of obeying things uh because we're sort of obeying things uh because we're sort of obeying in advance, we don't want critics to get in advance, we don't want critics to get in advance, we don't want critics to get mad at us. Um and and I think that I mad at us. Um and and I think that I mad at us. Um and and I think that I think that's a bad thing. And so I think that's a bad thing. And so I think that's a bad thing. And so I really think that having some fidelity

really think that having some fidelity really think that having some fidelity and courage um I I don't want to look and courage um I I don't want to look and courage um I I don't want to look back uh 10 years from now at um you know back uh 10 years from now at um you know back uh 10 years from now at um you know at my ministry and say, "Man, I didn't at my ministry and say, "Man, I didn't at my ministry and say, "Man, I didn't speak out about important things." Now, speak out about important things." Now, speak out about important things." Now, now again, it's a little important. It's now again, it's a little important. It's now again, it's a little important. It's a little it's important distinction. a little it's important distinction. a little it's important distinction. Being a local church pastor and a and an Being a local church pastor and a and an Being a local church pastor and a and an author and a cultural commentator are author and a cultural commentator are author and a cultural commentator are different roles, different roles, different roles, >> but I think there are also times and >> but I think there are also times and >> but I think there are also times and spaces where we want to say these things spaces where we want to say these things spaces where we want to say these things really matter to us. And and I think, really matter to us. And and I think, really matter to us. And and I think, you know, in 2026, well, always, but you know, in 2026, well, always, but you know, in 2026, well, always, but particularly clarity is kindness. And particularly clarity is kindness. And particularly clarity is kindness. And but I would just say don't do it in such but I would just say don't do it in such but I would just say don't do it in such a way. I'll give you an example. I I a way. I'll give you an example. I I a way. I'll give you an example. I I think that um uh when President Trump's think that um uh when President Trump's think that um uh when President Trump's social media account uh posted the social media account uh posted the social media account uh posted the Obamas as as as monkeys. Um I think Obamas as as as monkeys. Um I think Obamas as as as monkeys. Um I think that's worthy of condemnation. Let me be that's worthy of condemnation. Let me be that's worthy of condemnation. Let me be crystal clear now. However, if you the crystal clear now. However, if you the crystal clear now. However, if you the very first hour said, "I can't believe very first hour said, "I can't believe very first hour said, "I can't believe President Trump posted this." But then President Trump posted this." But then President Trump posted this." But then you just created a whole conversation. you just created a whole conversation. you just created a whole conversation. Well, what what it was? He said it was Well, what what it was? He said it was Well, what what it was? He said it was someone at first they defended it, but someone at first they defended it, but someone at first they defended it, but then it was like, "No, it was somebody then it was like, "No, it was somebody then it was like, "No, it was somebody who won the team." Okay, so that's so who won the team." Okay, so that's so who won the team." Okay, so that's so that's bad. So, so then say, well, that's bad. So, so then say, well, that's bad. So, so then say, well, someone's from the team didn't do it.

someone's from the team didn't do it. someone's from the team didn't do it. They says, well, no, actually, it wasn't They says, well, no, actually, it wasn't They says, well, no, actually, it wasn't from the team. It was like a loop from from the team. It was like a loop from from the team. It was like a loop from another video that accidentally got another video that accidentally got another video that accidentally got posted. But here's the thing. I mean, if posted. But here's the thing. I mean, if posted. But here's the thing. I mean, if you waited a little while and said, as I you waited a little while and said, as I you waited a little while and said, as I think many Christian leaders did. Um, I think many Christian leaders did. Um, I think many Christian leaders did. Um, I mean, president should take mean, president should take mean, president should take responsibility for this. This this is responsibility for this. This this is responsibility for this. This this is this is his social media account. Uh, this is his social media account. Uh, this is his social media account. Uh, we've created a culture where cruelty we've created a culture where cruelty we've created a culture where cruelty and social media is the norm. Um, but at and social media is the norm. Um, but at and social media is the norm. Um, but at the end of the day, he I mean, and some the end of the day, he I mean, and some the end of the day, he I mean, and some Christian leaders said, you know, this Christian leaders said, you know, this Christian leaders said, you know, this is he should say that we'll make sure is he should say that we'll make sure is he should say that we'll make sure this never happens again. It shouldn't this never happens again. It shouldn't this never happens again. It shouldn't have happened on his account, etc., etc. have happened on his account, etc., etc. have happened on his account, etc., etc. But the problem is if you kind of felt But the problem is if you kind of felt But the problem is if you kind of felt like you had to first rush to say those like you had to first rush to say those like you had to first rush to say those things, you've got now 50 people saying things, you've got now 50 people saying things, you've got now 50 people saying you're two news cycles behind what you're two news cycles behind what you're two news cycles behind what actually happened when at the end of the actually happened when at the end of the actually happened when at the end of the day, it's really bad when when when this day, it's really bad when when when this day, it's really bad when when when this is the kind of thing that someone is the kind of thing that someone is the kind of thing that someone doesn't say, I can't believe this doesn't say, I can't believe this doesn't say, I can't believe this happened on my social media account. I happened on my social media account. I happened on my social media account. I take responsibility. I'm sorry. that take responsibility. I'm sorry. that take responsibility. I'm sorry. that should have been but again kind of when should have been but again kind of when should have been but again kind of when you jump into that. So I want us to have you jump into that. So I want us to have you jump into that. So I want us to have the courage to say things and and right the courage to say things and and right the courage to say things and and right times uh but simultaneously when you do times uh but simultaneously when you do times uh but simultaneously when you do it before you have all the facts because it before you have all the facts because it before you have all the facts because you feel the rush to do it that rush to you feel the rush to do it that rush to you feel the rush to do it that rush to do it is not your friend in discerning do it is not your friend in discerning do it is not your friend in discerning pastoral ministry.

pastoral ministry. pastoral ministry. >> Yeah. You know I would add I I posted >> Yeah. You know I would add I I posted >> Yeah. You know I would add I I posted about this recently actually. I was sort about this recently actually. I was sort about this recently actually. I was sort of reflecting on the difference between of reflecting on the difference between of reflecting on the difference between like true wisdom and this sort of false like true wisdom and this sort of false like true wisdom and this sort of false wisdom. both of which are slow. One is wisdom. both of which are slow. One is wisdom. both of which are slow. One is slow and the way I kind of think about slow and the way I kind of think about slow and the way I kind of think about it is what we are experiencing. Ed it is what we are experiencing. Ed it is what we are experiencing. Ed called this a cultural convulsion. called this a cultural convulsion. called this a cultural convulsion. Imagine that kind of the world as we Imagine that kind of the world as we Imagine that kind of the world as we knew it almost like collapsed the way a knew it almost like collapsed the way a knew it almost like collapsed the way a building collapses. And when a building building collapses. And when a building building collapses. And when a building collapses, it kicks up all this dust and collapses, it kicks up all this dust and collapses, it kicks up all this dust and you're sort of waiting for the dust to you're sort of waiting for the dust to you're sort of waiting for the dust to settle a little bit so that you can see settle a little bit so that you can see settle a little bit so that you can see clearly. Wisdom calls you to to wait for clearly. Wisdom calls you to to wait for clearly. Wisdom calls you to to wait for the dust to settle so that you can see the dust to settle so that you can see the dust to settle so that you can see like which way do I need to go in order like which way do I need to go in order like which way do I need to go in order to care for this situation. That is true to care for this situation. That is true to care for this situation. That is true wisdom. That that being slow to speak. wisdom. That that being slow to speak. wisdom. That that being slow to speak. False wisdom is slow but for the sake of False wisdom is slow but for the sake of False wisdom is slow but for the sake of cowardice. Like it it is a way to avoid cowardice. Like it it is a way to avoid cowardice. Like it it is a way to avoid having to speak. It's it's saying I need having to speak. It's it's saying I need having to speak. It's it's saying I need all the facts when really that's just a all the facts when really that's just a all the facts when really that's just a diversion to get out of having to be a diversion to get out of having to be a diversion to get out of having to be a faithful witness. And so I think that's faithful witness. And so I think that's faithful witness. And so I think that's a question that we all as leaders need a question that we all as leaders need a question that we all as leaders need to be really sober minded about and and to be really sober minded about and and to be really sober minded about and and weighing that in ourselves is am I being weighing that in ourselves is am I being weighing that in ourselves is am I being slow in the way that wisdom requires?

slow in the way that wisdom requires? slow in the way that wisdom requires? Like I I think in this reactive culture, Like I I think in this reactive culture, Like I I think in this reactive culture, the temptation is to run after stuff the the temptation is to run after stuff the the temptation is to run after stuff the way a fish darts after bait. We need to way a fish darts after bait. We need to way a fish darts after bait. We need to stop. We need to slow down. But that is stop. We need to slow down. But that is stop. We need to slow down. But that is not then an excuse to kind of hide not then an excuse to kind of hide not then an excuse to kind of hide behind that and never speak. behind that and never speak. behind that and never speak. I'd love to know from each of you how I'd love to know from each of you how I'd love to know from each of you how you decide and you've you've you've you decide and you've you've you've you decide and you've you've you've already hinted at this a little bit. I already hinted at this a little bit. I already hinted at this a little bit. I mean, I think it's wonderful what you're mean, I think it's wonderful what you're mean, I think it's wonderful what you're saying about how to process the saying about how to process the saying about how to process the criticism when it comes, how to know, criticism when it comes, how to know, criticism when it comes, how to know, you know, different categories for you know, different categories for you know, different categories for different kinds of responses, doing this different kinds of responses, doing this different kinds of responses, doing this in community, seeking therapy as needed. in community, seeking therapy as needed. in community, seeking therapy as needed. I think that's like I don't know that I think that's like I don't know that I think that's like I don't know that there's a healthier answer on the side there's a healthier answer on the side there's a healthier answer on the side of heaven. But we also need to know, and of heaven. But we also need to know, and of heaven. But we also need to know, and I think that's gotten way more I think that's gotten way more I think that's gotten way more difficult, like how do you know when to difficult, like how do you know when to difficult, like how do you know when to speak? like when something comes out speak? like when something comes out speak? like when something comes out from the White House, when something from the White House, when something from the White House, when something happens with ICE, when it's Charlie happens with ICE, when it's Charlie happens with ICE, when it's Charlie Kirk, like what do you and it seems like Kirk, like what do you and it seems like Kirk, like what do you and it seems like we're getting them all the time now. How we're getting them all the time now. How we're getting them all the time now. How what is your personal filter if you have what is your personal filter if you have what is your personal filter if you have one on I'm actually going to and I think one on I'm actually going to and I think one on I'm actually going to and I think your point about you know speaking your point about you know speaking your point about you know speaking immediately and slowing down and having immediately and slowing down and having immediately and slowing down and having some wisdom and the news cycle is some wisdom and the news cycle is some wisdom and the news cycle is instantaneous all that not you know as a instantaneous all that not you know as a instantaneous all that not you know as a given. When do you decide, all right, I given. When do you decide, all right, I given. When do you decide, all right, I got to say something on this or I'm just got to say something on this or I'm just got to say something on this or I'm just going to sit this one out and be quiet.

going to sit this one out and be quiet. going to sit this one out and be quiet. >> Mhm. So, I want to answer this So, I want to answer this as a pastor and not as someone who is as a pastor and not as someone who is as a pastor and not as someone who is very online because I I think that that very online because I I think that that very online because I I think that that is the majority. Again, if you happen to is the majority. Again, if you happen to is the majority. Again, if you happen to be online, that's great, but I don't be online, that's great, but I don't be online, that's great, but I don't think if you're not online, I don't think if you're not online, I don't think if you're not online, I don't think you need to get online. Even if think you need to get online. Even if think you need to get online. Even if you have 100,000 followers, you're still you have 100,000 followers, you're still you have 100,000 followers, you're still a pastor of specific people, not just a pastor of specific people, not just a pastor of specific people, not just the internet. Right? the internet. Right? the internet. Right? >> That's the thing to remember. >> That's the thing to remember. >> That's the thing to remember. >> Again, I think we have got to get out of >> Again, I think we have got to get out of >> Again, I think we have got to get out of this posture of reacting. Like I I think this posture of reacting. Like I I think this posture of reacting. Like I I think we are being led by the culture because we are being led by the culture because we are being led by the culture because we're constantly pinging off of whatever we're constantly pinging off of whatever we're constantly pinging off of whatever is happening. And that was one of our is happening. And that was one of our is happening. And that was one of our primary lessons coming out of 2020 is we primary lessons coming out of 2020 is we primary lessons coming out of 2020 is we were not prepared. like we had not were not prepared. like we had not were not prepared. like we had not discipled our people well to be faithful discipled our people well to be faithful discipled our people well to be faithful in that moment. And so we were in that moment. And so we were in that moment. And so we were constantly reacting to what was constantly reacting to what was constantly reacting to what was happening. And so when we saw this happening. And so when we saw this happening. And so when we saw this election coming around, we realized, election coming around, we realized, election coming around, we realized, okay, we need to actually start okay, we need to actually start okay, we need to actually start discipling our people in like a robust discipling our people in like a robust discipling our people in like a robust theology of the kingdom of God. Like theology of the kingdom of God. Like theology of the kingdom of God. Like what does it mean to be primarily a what does it mean to be primarily a what does it mean to be primarily a citizen of the kingdom and not a citizen citizen of the kingdom and not a citizen citizen of the kingdom and not a citizen of the United States?

of the United States? of the United States? putting into place those networks of of putting into place those networks of of putting into place those networks of of wise counselors. So I am all I as a wise counselors. So I am all I as a wise counselors. So I am all I as a leader am already being formed. And then leader am already being formed. And then leader am already being formed. And then something else that we have is a rubric something else that we have is a rubric something else that we have is a rubric for of just questions of when to speak. for of just questions of when to speak. for of just questions of when to speak. And this is just something that we put And this is just something that we put And this is just something that we put together not in response to something together not in response to something together not in response to something specific that was happening but just by specific that was happening but just by specific that was happening but just by and large. And so I'll read we have five and large. And so I'll read we have five and large. And so I'll read we have five questions. The first is about pastoral questions. The first is about pastoral questions. The first is about pastoral care. Are people in our community care. Are people in our community care. Are people in our community directly affected by it or grieving and directly affected by it or grieving and directly affected by it or grieving and in pain? And honestly, that is going to in pain? And honestly, that is going to in pain? And honestly, that is going to eliminate us addressing the majority of eliminate us addressing the majority of eliminate us addressing the majority of things because the majority of things things because the majority of things things because the majority of things that happen in our country are not that happen in our country are not that happen in our country are not directly affecting. Now, obviously directly affecting. Now, obviously directly affecting. Now, obviously something like 9/11, that's a very something like 9/11, that's a very something like 9/11, that's a very obvious example of something George obvious example of something George obvious example of something George Floyd, that's another obvious example Floyd, that's another obvious example Floyd, that's another obvious example where it affected people all over the where it affected people all over the where it affected people all over the nation. But just because it happens in nation. But just because it happens in nation. But just because it happens in the United States doesn't mean it is the United States doesn't mean it is the United States doesn't mean it is affecting people in your congregation. affecting people in your congregation. affecting people in your congregation. The next is primacy of scripture. Does The next is primacy of scripture. Does The next is primacy of scripture. Does God's word clearly speak to this? Uh God's word clearly speak to this? Uh God's word clearly speak to this? Uh protection. Is the gospel being protection. Is the gospel being protection. Is the gospel being distorted in some way? Prudence. Can we distorted in some way? Prudence. Can we distorted in some way? Prudence. Can we speak to it knowledgeably? And that goes speak to it knowledgeably? And that goes speak to it knowledgeably? And that goes to what Ed was saying with the recent to what Ed was saying with the recent to what Ed was saying with the recent situation with the Obamas is is taking a situation with the Obamas is is taking a situation with the Obamas is is taking a moment especially with AI now is is you moment especially with AI now is is you moment especially with AI now is is you have got to vet everything that is have got to vet everything that is have got to vet everything that is coming across your screen and making coming across your screen and making coming across your screen and making sure that you're not just again that sure that you're not just again that sure that you're not just again that fish going after the bait. And then fish going after the bait. And then fish going after the bait. And then finally prophetic hope in our speech.

finally prophetic hope in our speech. finally prophetic hope in our speech. Are we guiding people to see Christ in Are we guiding people to see Christ in Are we guiding people to see Christ in all things? So it isn't just despair, all things? So it isn't just despair, all things? So it isn't just despair, despair, despair, but what is our despair, despair, but what is our despair, despair, but what is our ultimate hope in Christ? And so that's a ultimate hope in Christ? And so that's a ultimate hope in Christ? And so that's a rubric that we use to talk with our rubric that we use to talk with our rubric that we use to talk with our elders, to talk with our staff about elders, to talk with our staff about elders, to talk with our staff about when to speak and when not to speak. when to speak and when not to speak. when to speak and when not to speak. >> Are you good with us sharing that in the >> Are you good with us sharing that in the >> Are you good with us sharing that in the show notes? That's really helpful. show notes? That's really helpful. show notes? That's really helpful. >> Thank you, Sharon. Yeah. What about What >> Thank you, Sharon. Yeah. What about What >> Thank you, Sharon. Yeah. What about What about you guys, Adam? How about you? about you guys, Adam? How about you? about you guys, Adam? How about you? What how do you decide what to speak? What how do you decide what to speak? What how do you decide what to speak? And I think, you know, the other thing, And I think, you know, the other thing, And I think, you know, the other thing, too, is we all have internet followers, too, is we all have internet followers, too, is we all have internet followers, but you're also tethered to a local but you're also tethered to a local but you're also tethered to a local church. So it's I mean Sharon and Adam I church. So it's I mean Sharon and Adam I church. So it's I mean Sharon and Adam I mean you're both pastoring like lead mean you're both pastoring like lead mean you're both pastoring like lead pastor roles. You have this challenge pastor roles. You have this challenge pastor roles. You have this challenge where you've got the public persona but where you've got the public persona but where you've got the public persona but also hey this is my church. So what what also hey this is my church. So what what also hey this is my church. So what what what do how are you making those what do how are you making those what do how are you making those decisions? decisions? decisions? Yeah, I think I mean pretty much echoing Yeah, I think I mean pretty much echoing Yeah, I think I mean pretty much echoing what Sharon said, I we kind of use m what Sharon said, I we kind of use m what Sharon said, I we kind of use m maybe not that exact same language, but maybe not that exact same language, but maybe not that exact same language, but basically that criteria as well um uh in basically that criteria as well um uh in basically that criteria as well um uh in the sense of you know is what's the sense of you know is what's the sense of you know is what's happening right now directly affecting happening right now directly affecting happening right now directly affecting the people of our church? And is the the people of our church? And is the the people of our church? And is the noise is the noise coming from our noise is the noise coming from our noise is the noise coming from our church question, doubts and pain or is church question, doubts and pain or is church question, doubts and pain or is the noise coming from our church fear the noise coming from our church fear the noise coming from our church fear and like you know anger and all that and like you know anger and all that and like you know anger and all that because that that's what you're going to because that that's what you're going to because that that's what you're going to feed into and I kind of call it the feed into and I kind of call it the feed into and I kind of call it the three-headed hydra. Like if you keep three-headed hydra. Like if you keep three-headed hydra. Like if you keep going after these things then 50% of my going after these things then 50% of my going after these things then 50% of my pulpit ministry on Sundays will just be

pulpit ministry on Sundays will just be pulpit ministry on Sundays will just be addressing what's happening in culture. addressing what's happening in culture. addressing what's happening in culture. And the moment I start doing that and And the moment I start doing that and And the moment I start doing that and and I know pastors that do that and they and I know pastors that do that and they and I know pastors that do that and they may be feel called to do that. I I may be feel called to do that. I I may be feel called to do that. I I really honestly have a conviction really honestly have a conviction really honestly have a conviction against it cuz I hear a lot of sermons against it cuz I hear a lot of sermons against it cuz I hear a lot of sermons nowadays where half of it is basically, nowadays where half of it is basically, nowadays where half of it is basically, you know, half of a message is is a news you know, half of a message is is a news you know, half of a message is is a news reel and then it jumps into the sermon reel and then it jumps into the sermon reel and then it jumps into the sermon and then every verse is being connected and then every verse is being connected and then every verse is being connected into whatever Fox News and CNN and what into whatever Fox News and CNN and what into whatever Fox News and CNN and what was happening on social media and then was happening on social media and then was happening on social media and then those sound clips are being circulated, those sound clips are being circulated, those sound clips are being circulated, you know, on social media. that doesn't you know, on social media. that doesn't you know, on social media. that doesn't I I've I may be on the younger side, but I I've I may be on the younger side, but I I've I may be on the younger side, but I've lived long enough to see that I've lived long enough to see that I've lived long enough to see that pastors who choose that route at some pastors who choose that route at some pastors who choose that route at some point the the bear that they've been point the the bear that they've been point the the bear that they've been feeding turns on them and uh and it feeding turns on them and uh and it feeding turns on them and uh and it starts eating them at some point because starts eating them at some point because starts eating them at some point because they've created basically a a angry they've created basically a a angry they've created basically a a angry horde of members and then when you're horde of members and then when you're horde of members and then when you're not feeding that anymore, it's going to not feeding that anymore, it's going to not feeding that anymore, it's going to come back at you or if you just slip up come back at you or if you just slip up come back at you or if you just slip up one degree to whatever you've created. one degree to whatever you've created. one degree to whatever you've created. And so for me, we're not trying to build And so for me, we're not trying to build And so for me, we're not trying to build that. I tell our team that my whole that. I tell our team that my whole that. I tell our team that my whole staff is is minorities and so we have to staff is is minorities and so we have to staff is is minorities and so we have to regularly talk to our team about and I'm regularly talk to our team about and I'm regularly talk to our team about and I'm very transparent with our team about very transparent with our team about very transparent with our team about where we're at with politics and things where we're at with politics and things where we're at with politics and things like we did a staff meeting in the fall like we did a staff meeting in the fall like we did a staff meeting in the fall and we did four breakouts. One was like and we did four breakouts. One was like and we did four breakouts. One was like on mental health, another was on finance on mental health, another was on finance on mental health, another was on finance just for our staff and then I led one on just for our staff and then I led one on just for our staff and then I led one on how does Pastor Adam approach politics how does Pastor Adam approach politics how does Pastor Adam approach politics from the pulpit and about 20 of our from the pulpit and about 20 of our from the pulpit and about 20 of our staff sat and I just talked to them.

staff sat and I just talked to them. staff sat and I just talked to them. Hey, here here's my rationale on why I'm Hey, here here's my rationale on why I'm Hey, here here's my rationale on why I'm not heavy politics in the pulpit because not heavy politics in the pulpit because not heavy politics in the pulpit because a lot of it is a a lot of it is a lot of it is a a lot of it is a lot of it is a a lot of it is convoluted and it and if we're honest, convoluted and it and if we're honest, convoluted and it and if we're honest, it's a lot more complicated um it's a lot more complicated um it's a lot more complicated um politically because we're not political politically because we're not political politically because we're not political figures. We're pastors. We're shepherds. figures. We're pastors. We're shepherds. figures. We're pastors. We're shepherds. You know, we're we're getting into a You know, we're we're getting into a You know, we're we're getting into a battle that wasn't even made for us. You battle that wasn't even made for us. You battle that wasn't even made for us. You know, we're talking about a kingdom that know, we're talking about a kingdom that know, we're talking about a kingdom that isn't even ours and we're trying to isn't even ours and we're trying to isn't even ours and we're trying to dissect it every week when we're dissect it every week when we're dissect it every week when we're supposed to be talking about the kingdom supposed to be talking about the kingdom supposed to be talking about the kingdom of God. And so for me it's a it's often of God. And so for me it's a it's often of God. And so for me it's a it's often to me I just tell people it's often a to me I just tell people it's often a to me I just tell people it's often a losing battle if I just go and jump into losing battle if I just go and jump into losing battle if I just go and jump into that. Now, if I have to pastor people that. Now, if I have to pastor people that. Now, if I have to pastor people through some things dealing with the through some things dealing with the through some things dealing with the pain and Sharon was, you know, pain and Sharon was, you know, pain and Sharon was, you know, exceptionally, you know, clear about exceptionally, you know, clear about exceptionally, you know, clear about that, whether it was it's George Floyd that, whether it was it's George Floyd that, whether it was it's George Floyd or Charlie Kirk or you go back to 9/11, or Charlie Kirk or you go back to 9/11, or Charlie Kirk or you go back to 9/11, those things are important to talk those things are important to talk those things are important to talk about. But even for me, like I didn't about. But even for me, like I didn't about. But even for me, like I didn't really, you know, with Minianapolis and really, you know, with Minianapolis and really, you know, with Minianapolis and ICE and we have a lot of Hispanics in ICE and we have a lot of Hispanics in ICE and we have a lot of Hispanics in our church. I didn't address it because our church. I didn't address it because our church. I didn't address it because it's painful for people in our church it's painful for people in our church it's painful for people in our church and I know people are looking for me to and I know people are looking for me to and I know people are looking for me to address it, but just last week I I I had address it, but just last week I I I had address it, but just last week I I I had to pray over someone's IT 10 application to pray over someone's IT 10 application to pray over someone's IT 10 application because his wife is about to be deported because his wife is about to be deported because his wife is about to be deported and they've been waiting for 5 years.

and they've been waiting for 5 years. and they've been waiting for 5 years. They their their paperwork was approved. They their their paperwork was approved. They their their paperwork was approved. She just hasn't been assigned a number She just hasn't been assigned a number She just hasn't been assigned a number yet. And so there's 11 million people in yet. And so there's 11 million people in yet. And so there's 11 million people in America right now that are waiting green America right now that are waiting green America right now that are waiting green cards and iTunes that have been cards and iTunes that have been cards and iTunes that have been approved. They just haven't assigned the approved. They just haven't assigned the approved. They just haven't assigned the the the numbers yet. Uh essentially. And the the numbers yet. Uh essentially. And the the numbers yet. Uh essentially. And so it's way more complicated. I 3 weeks so it's way more complicated. I 3 weeks so it's way more complicated. I 3 weeks ago I prayed with a young man who's 27 ago I prayed with a young man who's 27 ago I prayed with a young man who's 27 years old, doesn't speak any Spanish, years old, doesn't speak any Spanish, years old, doesn't speak any Spanish, was brought to America when he was two, was brought to America when he was two, was brought to America when he was two, and he has an immigration appointment and he has an immigration appointment and he has an immigration appointment coming up soon uh for potentially being coming up soon uh for potentially being coming up soon uh for potentially being taken out uh of the country. And he's taken out uh of the country. And he's taken out uh of the country. And he's weeping and he's crying. And we're weeping and he's crying. And we're weeping and he's crying. And we're sitting there and he's like, "Do you sitting there and he's like, "Do you sitting there and he's like, "Do you know an immigration attorney?" And even know an immigration attorney?" And even know an immigration attorney?" And even that right now is convoluted because that right now is convoluted because that right now is convoluted because some immigration attorneys are taking some immigration attorneys are taking some immigration attorneys are taking advantage of people because they have advantage of people because they have advantage of people because they have fear, you know, that they're going to fear, you know, that they're going to fear, you know, that they're going to be, you know, expelled from the country. be, you know, expelled from the country. be, you know, expelled from the country. And so some are taking advantage And so some are taking advantage And so some are taking advantage financially, others are doing an honest financially, others are doing an honest financially, others are doing an honest job. And so if I just went on my pulpit job. And so if I just went on my pulpit job. And so if I just went on my pulpit and took two minutes in the sermon like, and took two minutes in the sermon like, and took two minutes in the sermon like, "Hey guys, this is my stance on it." It "Hey guys, this is my stance on it." It "Hey guys, this is my stance on it." It to me it's it's not fair to a lot of to me it's it's not fair to a lot of to me it's it's not fair to a lot of what's happening right now. And so I do what's happening right now. And so I do what's happening right now. And so I do have my podcast where we'll talk a have my podcast where we'll talk a have my podcast where we'll talk a little bit more in depth on this stuff, little bit more in depth on this stuff, little bit more in depth on this stuff, but if I feel the emotions are high, I but if I feel the emotions are high, I but if I feel the emotions are high, I won't talk about it. I'm not looking for won't talk about it. I'm not looking for won't talk about it. I'm not looking for clickbait. I'm not looking to go viral.

clickbait. I'm not looking to go viral. clickbait. I'm not looking to go viral. I wait until the dust settles and then I wait until the dust settles and then I wait until the dust settles and then like a month and a half, two months like a month and a half, two months like a month and a half, two months later, I'll be like, "Hey, let's let's later, I'll be like, "Hey, let's let's later, I'll be like, "Hey, let's let's talk about two months ago th this topic talk about two months ago th this topic talk about two months ago th this topic that was kind of circ." And I get it. that was kind of circ." And I get it. that was kind of circ." And I get it. That's not attractive and it's not going That's not attractive and it's not going That's not attractive and it's not going to get me a lot of views because the to get me a lot of views because the to get me a lot of views because the news cycle's already moved on. I'm fine news cycle's already moved on. I'm fine news cycle's already moved on. I'm fine with that because I'm I'm not I'm not with that because I'm I'm not I'm not with that because I'm I'm not I'm not trying to be, you know, clippable in in trying to be, you know, clippable in in trying to be, you know, clippable in in that regard. I I want influence. I want that regard. I I want influence. I want that regard. I I want influence. I want to see people come to the knowledge of to see people come to the knowledge of to see people come to the knowledge of Jesus. I want to see people grow to Jesus. I want to see people grow to Jesus. I want to see people grow to their in their faith. I want to see their in their faith. I want to see their in their faith. I want to see people grow in their marriages and their people grow in their marriages and their people grow in their marriages and their families. And that for me, that's my families. And that for me, that's my families. And that for me, that's my call and that's my focus. And other call and that's my focus. And other call and that's my focus. And other people may have a prophetic call to to people may have a prophetic call to to people may have a prophetic call to to focus on other things, but that's really focus on other things, but that's really focus on other things, but that's really where I feel led as as a pastor in this where I feel led as as a pastor in this where I feel led as as a pastor in this season as a millennial. season as a millennial. season as a millennial. >> So, how are you dealing with ICE then? I >> So, how are you dealing with ICE then? I >> So, how are you dealing with ICE then? I mean, it must come up almost every week mean, it must come up almost every week mean, it must come up almost every week in your DMs. And with your congregation in your DMs. And with your congregation in your DMs. And with your congregation being heavily Hispanic, is that more of being heavily Hispanic, is that more of being heavily Hispanic, is that more of a pastoral thing and an offline thing or a pastoral thing and an offline thing or a pastoral thing and an offline thing or what do you what are you doing, Adam? what do you what are you doing, Adam? what do you what are you doing, Adam? >> Yeah, I I approach it pastorally, mostly >> Yeah, I I approach it pastorally, mostly >> Yeah, I I approach it pastorally, mostly offline. Um um we we did somewhat we offline. Um um we we did somewhat we offline. Um um we we did somewhat we were in Ephesians and so after were in Ephesians and so after were in Ephesians and so after Minneapolis there was um you know, Minneapolis there was um you know, Minneapolis there was um you know, obviously in Ephesians talks about unity obviously in Ephesians talks about unity obviously in Ephesians talks about unity and stuff like that. And so people could and stuff like that. And so people could and stuff like that. And so people could tell I was basically speaking about, you tell I was basically speaking about, you tell I was basically speaking about, you know, um this concept of unity and stuff know, um this concept of unity and stuff know, um this concept of unity and stuff like that. But um overall, basically like that. But um overall, basically like that. But um overall, basically what I say is I often tell people if what I say is I often tell people if what I say is I often tell people if they say, "Hey, why aren't you talking they say, "Hey, why aren't you talking they say, "Hey, why aren't you talking about this?" My my honest response is about this?" My my honest response is about this?" My my honest response is and it's truthful and it's not a copout and it's truthful and it's not a copout and it's truthful and it's not a copout is there are real people in my church is there are real people in my church is there are real people in my church who are really dealing with this right who are really dealing with this right who are really dealing with this right now. And I don't have enough words in a

now. And I don't have enough words in a now. And I don't have enough words in a given sermon to be able to pastor people given sermon to be able to pastor people given sermon to be able to pastor people through what they're experiencing. And through what they're experiencing. And through what they're experiencing. And so that's why after every service, so that's why after every service, so that's why after every service, almost every Sunday, I'm standing by the almost every Sunday, I'm standing by the almost every Sunday, I'm standing by the sta the the the the stage so that I sta the the the the stage so that I sta the the the the stage so that I could deal with any and I'll sometimes could deal with any and I'll sometimes could deal with any and I'll sometimes I'll go into worship into the next I'll go into worship into the next I'll go into worship into the next service and I'll still be talking to service and I'll still be talking to service and I'll still be talking to people and I will do that until I run people and I will do that until I run people and I will do that until I run out of my voice because I'm going to out of my voice because I'm going to out of my voice because I'm going to deal with the the person, the individual deal with the the person, the individual deal with the the person, the individual rather than the the the pulpit is only rather than the the the pulpit is only rather than the the the pulpit is only one function of the of the gathering of one function of the of the gathering of one function of the of the gathering of the church. I'm I'm not going to I'm not the church. I'm I'm not going to I'm not the church. I'm I'm not going to I'm not going to feel like in a 35 minute time going to feel like in a 35 minute time going to feel like in a 35 minute time frame I have to solve all of the world's frame I have to solve all of the world's frame I have to solve all of the world's issues and confront everything. I And I issues and confront everything. I And I issues and confront everything. I And I think there are great times like like think there are great times like like think there are great times like like Mariners just did that said, "Hey, we're Mariners just did that said, "Hey, we're Mariners just did that said, "Hey, we're going to dedicate a sermon to talk about going to dedicate a sermon to talk about going to dedicate a sermon to talk about this." I wouldn't right now because I this." I wouldn't right now because I this." I wouldn't right now because I just have a lot of people in fear in my just have a lot of people in fear in my just have a lot of people in fear in my church. Um, and uh, I don't I don't want church. Um, and uh, I don't I don't want church. Um, and uh, I don't I don't want a limited word to cause a person to be a limited word to cause a person to be a limited word to cause a person to be like, "Wow, my pastor thinks that I like, "Wow, my pastor thinks that I like, "Wow, my pastor thinks that I should be thrown back to Mexico. My p should be thrown back to Mexico. My p should be thrown back to Mexico. My p hold on my, you know, and I'd want to be hold on my, you know, and I'd want to be hold on my, you know, and I'd want to be able to tell them to their face." No, able to tell them to their face." No, able to tell them to their face." No, when I say that borders should be when I say that borders should be when I say that borders should be secure, which I do agree with that, secure, which I do agree with that, secure, which I do agree with that, here's what I'm also not saying. I'm here's what I'm also not saying. I'm here's what I'm also not saying. I'm also not saying that you're not also not saying that you're not also not saying that you're not valuable, and I'm also not saying that valuable, and I'm also not saying that valuable, and I'm also not saying that you weren't, you know, that since you you weren't, you know, that since you you weren't, you know, that since you were brought here at one that you should were brought here at one that you should were brought here at one that you should be kicked. That's not what I'm saying. I be kicked. That's not what I'm saying. I be kicked. That's not what I'm saying. I want to be able to look them in their want to be able to look them in their want to be able to look them in their eyes and explain that than just kind of eyes and explain that than just kind of eyes and explain that than just kind of have a sound bite from the pulpit.

have a sound bite from the pulpit. have a sound bite from the pulpit. >> Ed, how about you? I know you're >> Ed, how about you? I know you're >> Ed, how about you? I know you're speaking out a little bit less with your speaking out a little bit less with your speaking out a little bit less with your uh full-time duties, but like what's uh full-time duties, but like what's uh full-time duties, but like what's your filter? You hinted at it earlier your filter? You hinted at it earlier your filter? You hinted at it earlier about, you know, the Obama's that White about, you know, the Obama's that White about, you know, the Obama's that White House image, etc. But what what is your House image, etc. But what what is your House image, etc. But what what is your working filter for I need to say working filter for I need to say working filter for I need to say something or I'm going to let this go? something or I'm going to let this go? something or I'm going to let this go? >> Yeah. Yeah, it's and again it's it's >> Yeah. Yeah, it's and again it's it's >> Yeah. Yeah, it's and again it's it's tricky because like what Adam just said, tricky because like what Adam just said, tricky because like what Adam just said, I might come to different conclusions I might come to different conclusions I might come to different conclusions than what Adam just said, but I don't I than what Adam just said, but I don't I than what Adam just said, but I don't I think local churches need to figure think local churches need to figure think local churches need to figure these things out and they're in these things out and they're in these things out and they're in different contexts in different different contexts in different different contexts in different cultures. And so I don't want to bind cultures. And so I don't want to bind cultures. And so I don't want to bind the conscience. This is why this you the conscience. This is why this you the conscience. This is why this you know if your pastor doesn't say know if your pastor doesn't say know if your pastor doesn't say something about soand so is just so I something about soand so is just so I something about soand so is just so I think un unhelpful, offensive um and think un unhelpful, offensive um and think un unhelpful, offensive um and driven by other other agendas than I driven by other other agendas than I driven by other other agendas than I think um the scriptures. So, I would say think um the scriptures. So, I would say think um the scriptures. So, I would say in general, here's where it's tricky, in general, here's where it's tricky, in general, here's where it's tricky, like like because I get called up in like like because I get called up in like like because I get called up in people's, you know, on on a a newspaper people's, you know, on on a a newspaper people's, you know, on on a a newspaper or a radio show, whatever. So, you know, or a radio show, whatever. So, you know, or a radio show, whatever. So, you know, I'm, you know, I I I'm a cultural I'm, you know, I I I'm a cultural I'm, you know, I I I'm a cultural commentator in a way that a a normal commentator in a way that a a normal commentator in a way that a a normal pastor generally should not be. So my pastor generally should not be. So my pastor generally should not be. So my biggest exhort or exhortation to most biggest exhort or exhortation to most biggest exhort or exhortation to most people in a local church is you do not people in a local church is you do not people in a local church is you do not need to turn your pulpit into an ongoing need to turn your pulpit into an ongoing need to turn your pulpit into an ongoing source of news and commentary about source of news and commentary about source of news and commentary about cultural moments. Um you know get out of cultural moments. Um you know get out of cultural moments. Um you know get out of that cycle cuz it's it's it's first of that cycle cuz it's it's it's first of that cycle cuz it's it's it's first of all it's a cycle. Well why did you say all it's a cycle. Well why did you say all it's a cycle. Well why did you say something about this but you didn't say something about this but you didn't say something about this but you didn't say something about this? Cuz people are something about this? Cuz people are something about this? Cuz people are keeping score now. And you know this keeping score now. And you know this keeping score now. And you know this remember from the movie War Games you remember from the movie War Games you remember from the movie War Games you know the the only way to win is not to know the the only way to win is not to know the the only way to win is not to play the game. And so I would just say I

play the game. And so I would just say I play the game. And so I would just say I mean and I would say too even that the mean and I would say too even that the mean and I would say too even that the game will probably offend somebody but game will probably offend somebody but game will probably offend somebody but the point is these are very serious the point is these are very serious the point is these are very serious things but you got to have a filter that things but you got to have a filter that things but you got to have a filter that basically say I'm going to say something basically say I'm going to say something basically say I'm going to say something about this and I'm also say something about this and I'm also say something about this and I'm also say something about this and you got to like like for about this and you got to like like for about this and you got to like like for me you know I I think one of the things me you know I I think one of the things me you know I I think one of the things you have to be careful about like you you have to be careful about like you you have to be careful about like you know I I've written in the pages of USA know I I've written in the pages of USA know I I've written in the pages of USA Today defending traditional um marriage Today defending traditional um marriage Today defending traditional um marriage and defending uh institutions uh there and defending uh institutions uh there and defending uh institutions uh there I've been in CNN talking about pro-life I've been in CNN talking about pro-life I've been in CNN talking about pro-life and refugees and immigrants and so so and refugees and immigrants and so so and refugees and immigrants and so so for me You don't want to also be just for me You don't want to also be just for me You don't want to also be just the pastor who speaks about, you know, the pastor who speaks about, you know, the pastor who speaks about, you know, the phrase would be always punching, the phrase would be always punching, the phrase would be always punching, right? Uh, you know, you want to make right? Uh, you know, you want to make right? Uh, you know, you want to make sure that if you're going to say things, sure that if you're going to say things, sure that if you're going to say things, first of all, let me tell you, you first of all, let me tell you, you first of all, let me tell you, you probably for most people, they need to probably for most people, they need to probably for most people, they need to not be, again, let me say it again. You not be, again, let me say it again. You not be, again, let me say it again. You do not need to be the source of news and do not need to be the source of news and do not need to be the source of news and commentary on cultural moments in the commentary on cultural moments in the commentary on cultural moments in the church. However, if you're already in church. However, if you're already in church. However, if you're already in the habit of teaching and preaching the habit of teaching and preaching the habit of teaching and preaching these things, then then you've actually these things, then then you've actually these things, then then you've actually been discipling your people. Well, so been discipling your people. Well, so been discipling your people. Well, so for example, you know, let's say you're for example, you know, let's say you're for example, you know, let's say you're teaching and you're teaching on uh care teaching and you're teaching on uh care teaching and you're teaching on uh care for the poor and the vulnerable from for the poor and the vulnerable from for the poor and the vulnerable from James 1:27. You're you're preaching on James 1:27. You're you're preaching on James 1:27. You're you're preaching on sexual ethics from 1 Corinthians chapter sexual ethics from 1 Corinthians chapter sexual ethics from 1 Corinthians chapter 6. You're you're talking about the 6. You're you're talking about the 6. You're you're talking about the sanctity of life from Psalm 139. You're sanctity of life from Psalm 139. You're sanctity of life from Psalm 139. You're talking about justice and righteousness talking about justice and righteousness talking about justice and righteousness from Micah 6:8. So, so what I would say from Micah 6:8. So, so what I would say from Micah 6:8. So, so what I would say is, you know, create an ongoing culture is, you know, create an ongoing culture is, you know, create an ongoing culture that you're teaching and preaching what that you're teaching and preaching what that you're teaching and preaching what the Bible says about these things so the Bible says about these things so the Bible says about these things so people aren't wondering what you think people aren't wondering what you think people aren't wondering what you think about this particular incident, but about this particular incident, but about this particular incident, but you've equipped them with the word of you've equipped them with the word of you've equipped them with the word of God to see that incident and not be God to see that incident and not be God to see that incident and not be shaped or discipled by their cable news

shaped or discipled by their cable news shaped or discipled by their cable news choices or spiritually shaped by their choices or spiritually shaped by their choices or spiritually shaped by their social media, but instead to say, you social media, but instead to say, you social media, but instead to say, you know what, I Micah 6:8 comes to mind in know what, I Micah 6:8 comes to mind in know what, I Micah 6:8 comes to mind in this situation. Psalm 139 comes to mind this situation. Psalm 139 comes to mind this situation. Psalm 139 comes to mind in this situation. So, I I think it's in this situation. So, I I think it's in this situation. So, I I think it's it's um you know, few and far between. it's um you know, few and far between. it's um you know, few and far between. Uh, again, but I would say too, this I'm Uh, again, but I would say too, this I'm Uh, again, but I would say too, this I'm going to bind the conscious of pastors going to bind the conscious of pastors going to bind the conscious of pastors in different traditions. in different traditions. in different traditions. African-American traditions are very African-American traditions are very African-American traditions are very different about how much they speak different about how much they speak different about how much they speak about in culture and politics, right? Um about in culture and politics, right? Um about in culture and politics, right? Um and and what I would say is in all those and and what I would say is in all those and and what I would say is in all those kind of cases and now we see some kind of cases and now we see some kind of cases and now we see some pastors um you know I mean in the last 5 pastors um you know I mean in the last 5 pastors um you know I mean in the last 5 10 years it's been fascinating to watch 10 years it's been fascinating to watch 10 years it's been fascinating to watch some pastors kind of move you know it's some pastors kind of move you know it's some pastors kind of move you know it's it's almost you know the seeker church it's almost you know the seeker church it's almost you know the seeker church was of course a big thing and in some was of course a big thing and in some was of course a big thing and in some ways anti-woke has become the new ways anti-woke has become the new ways anti-woke has become the new seeker. So it's like I'm going to say seeker. So it's like I'm going to say seeker. So it's like I'm going to say these things people are going to be these things people are going to be these things people are going to be attracted to this and they are and they attracted to this and they are and they attracted to this and they are and they are. Um, so we see, you know, sometimes are. Um, so we see, you know, sometimes are. Um, so we see, you know, sometimes young men saying, "Finally, someone's young men saying, "Finally, someone's young men saying, "Finally, someone's going to say something." I would just going to say something." I would just going to say something." I would just say to you, the way you win them is say to you, the way you win them is say to you, the way you win them is probably going to the way you're going probably going to the way you're going probably going to the way you're going to have to keep them. And just keep in to have to keep them. And just keep in to have to keep them. And just keep in mind that you're not the only source of mind that you're not the only source of mind that you're not the only source of these things, and if they go way deep these things, and if they go way deep these things, and if they go way deep down the rabbit hole, they're going to down the rabbit hole, they're going to down the rabbit hole, they're going to be demanding more and more and more of be demanding more and more and more of be demanding more and more and more of you. For me, I just think consistently you. For me, I just think consistently you. For me, I just think consistently teaching the word of God, including teaching the word of God, including teaching the word of God, including about controversial issues, helps shape about controversial issues, helps shape about controversial issues, helps shape people to know this is how we would people to know this is how we would people to know this is how we would think about these things. So, like it think about these things. So, like it think about these things. So, like it comes to the thing about the uh the comes to the thing about the uh the comes to the thing about the uh the social media post on President Trump's social media post on President Trump's social media post on President Trump's thing like and because some pastors got thing like and because some pastors got thing like and because some pastors got really pressured to say something about really pressured to say something about really pressured to say something about this and what I would say to them is is this and what I would say to them is is this and what I would say to them is is like does your church wonder if you are

like does your church wonder if you are like does your church wonder if you are in favor of this? Do you feel the need in favor of this? Do you feel the need in favor of this? Do you feel the need to clarify this or have you taught to clarify this or have you taught to clarify this or have you taught consistently that you know that the IMO consistently that you know that the IMO consistently that you know that the IMO day and and people like well why would day and and people like well why would day and and people like well why would my pastor need to say address this in my pastor need to say address this in my pastor need to say address this in general again a different context etc general again a different context etc general again a different context etc etc I get that but for me it's it's a etc I get that but for me it's it's a etc I get that but for me it's it's a ongoing teaching biblical teaching ongoing teaching biblical teaching ongoing teaching biblical teaching regimen that doesn't just address the regimen that doesn't just address the regimen that doesn't just address the issues that your congregation likes in issues that your congregation likes in issues that your congregation likes in the Bible but also the issues your the Bible but also the issues your the Bible but also the issues your congregation doesn't like in the Bible congregation doesn't like in the Bible congregation doesn't like in the Bible and then occasionally when there's when and then occasionally when there's when and then occasionally when there's when people are confused used uh and they're people are confused used uh and they're people are confused used uh and they're unsure what you what you believe and unsure what you what you believe and unsure what you what you believe and there's a biblical warrant that needs to there's a biblical warrant that needs to there's a biblical warrant that needs to be expressed, then you do it in that be expressed, then you do it in that be expressed, then you do it in that context. That would be my exhortation. context. That would be my exhortation. context. That would be my exhortation. And again, I I have to say like I do the And again, I I have to say like I do the And again, I I have to say like I do the theological training for our staff at at theological training for our staff at at theological training for our staff at at Mariners Church and you know, I do some Mariners Church and you know, I do some Mariners Church and you know, I do some of the pastor training meetings and I of the pastor training meetings and I of the pastor training meetings and I say to them, say to them, say to them, >> don't look at Ed Ster social media and >> don't look at Ed Ster social media and >> don't look at Ed Ster social media and say I should do that because my role is say I should do that because my role is say I should do that because my role is different than your role. And one of the different than your role. And one of the different than your role. And one of the things that we say at our church is, you things that we say at our church is, you things that we say at our church is, you know, this is, you know, hard cuz, you know, this is, you know, hard cuz, you know, this is, you know, hard cuz, you know, everyone wants to be a free agent, know, everyone wants to be a free agent, know, everyone wants to be a free agent, but but if you're a pastor at or a staff but but if you're a pastor at or a staff but but if you're a pastor at or a staff member at our church, your social media member at our church, your social media member at our church, your social media is our social media. Like like what you is our social media. Like like what you is our social media. Like like what you say impacts all of us.

say impacts all of us. say impacts all of us. >> I think this is so good. I want to uh >> I think this is so good. I want to uh >> I think this is so good. I want to uh pick up. Adam, you touched on it. Ed, pick up. Adam, you touched on it. Ed, pick up. Adam, you touched on it. Ed, you touched on it. What did you say? Uh you touched on it. What did you say? Uh you touched on it. What did you say? Uh anti-woke is the new seeker sensitive. I anti-woke is the new seeker sensitive. I anti-woke is the new seeker sensitive. I think that's think that's think that's >> it's absolutely true. If you want a >> it's absolutely true. If you want a >> it's absolutely true. If you want a really quick way to grow your church really quick way to grow your church really quick way to grow your church right now, and you can do it in most right now, and you can do it in most right now, and you can do it in most places in America and some places in places in America and some places in places in America and some places in Canada and beyond, uh it's like just be Canada and beyond, uh it's like just be Canada and beyond, uh it's like just be anti-woke and you will see a lot of anti-woke and you will see a lot of anti-woke and you will see a lot of people show up very quickly. And I got people show up very quickly. And I got people show up very quickly. And I got to say, I'm happy I'm seeing some of to say, I'm happy I'm seeing some of to say, I'm happy I'm seeing some of those people trust and follow Jesus. I I those people trust and follow Jesus. I I those people trust and follow Jesus. I I think there is there are people coming think there is there are people coming think there is there are people coming to Christ in that kind of context. I I I to Christ in that kind of context. I I I to Christ in that kind of context. I I I would be careful about it for the would be careful about it for the would be careful about it for the long-term ramifications. long-term ramifications. long-term ramifications. >> Yeah. But but I think it's it's like if >> Yeah. But but I think it's it's like if >> Yeah. But but I think it's it's like if you get the angry mob all turned on an you get the angry mob all turned on an you get the angry mob all turned on an enemy or a villain, as you said, I think enemy or a villain, as you said, I think enemy or a villain, as you said, I think Adam, you know, eventually if you feed Adam, you know, eventually if you feed Adam, you know, eventually if you feed the bear, the bear is going to turn on the bear, the bear is going to turn on the bear, the bear is going to turn on you. Um what are the dangers you see in you. Um what are the dangers you see in you. Um what are the dangers you see in that? What are the dangers if you're that? What are the dangers if you're that? What are the dangers if you're like, "Yeah, I'm going to pick a like, "Yeah, I'm going to pick a like, "Yeah, I'm going to pick a particular viewpoint." And I mean, to be particular viewpoint." And I mean, to be particular viewpoint." And I mean, to be fair, okay, maybe it's progressive. You fair, okay, maybe it's progressive. You fair, okay, maybe it's progressive. You don't see a lot of those churches don't see a lot of those churches don't see a lot of those churches growing, but let's say it's pro growing, but let's say it's pro growing, but let's say it's pro progressive. or you just pick an progressive. or you just pick an progressive. or you just pick an ideological lane and it's like, "Yep, ideological lane and it's like, "Yep, ideological lane and it's like, "Yep, I'm going to pick up on this news feed, I'm going to pick up on this news feed, I'm going to pick up on this news feed, this angle, and I'm going to grow my this angle, and I'm going to grow my this angle, and I'm going to grow my church." And I know I've heard, you church." And I know I've heard, you church." And I know I've heard, you know, that there are churches using that know, that there are churches using that know, that there are churches using that to disciple people. It's sort of their to disciple people. It's sort of their to disciple people. It's sort of their their but but what are what are the the their but but what are what are the the their but but what are what are the the the challenges with that that you see if the challenges with that that you see if the challenges with that that you see if any long term?

any long term? any long term? >> I mean, the primary one is that you lose >> I mean, the primary one is that you lose >> I mean, the primary one is that you lose your distinct witness as the church. your distinct witness as the church. your distinct witness as the church. That's the primary that's primarily That's the primary that's primarily That's the primary that's primarily what's at stake. And I think we have what's at stake. And I think we have what's at stake. And I think we have actually seen that you mentioned more actually seen that you mentioned more actually seen that you mentioned more progressive churches. I want to say Ed, progressive churches. I want to say Ed, progressive churches. I want to say Ed, you might know this Christian Smith's you might know this Christian Smith's you might know this Christian Smith's book uh evangelicalism embattled and book uh evangelicalism embattled and book uh evangelicalism embattled and thriving. Have you read that book? thriving. Have you read that book? thriving. Have you read that book? >> Um he he talks about what I think I'm >> Um he he talks about what I think I'm >> Um he he talks about what I think I'm remembering correctly. talks about what remembering correctly. talks about what remembering correctly. talks about what makes evangelicalism makes evangelicalism makes evangelicalism why it has thrived for the long haul and why it has thrived for the long haul and why it has thrived for the long haul and how it threads this needle really well how it threads this needle really well how it threads this needle really well of having this distinct witness that is of having this distinct witness that is of having this distinct witness that is not so distinct as to become a sect that not so distinct as to become a sect that not so distinct as to become a sect that is disconnected from the culture but is disconnected from the culture but is disconnected from the culture but distinct enough that it has a clear distinct enough that it has a clear distinct enough that it has a clear identity and if you lose that clear identity and if you lose that clear identity and if you lose that clear identity there is no reason to become a identity there is no reason to become a identity there is no reason to become a part of the church and we've seen this part of the church and we've seen this part of the church and we've seen this happen with more liberal churches who happen with more liberal churches who happen with more liberal churches who are indistinguishable from the are indistinguishable from the are indistinguishable from the Democratic party, but I think we are Democratic party, but I think we are Democratic party, but I think we are starting to see the same thing happen on starting to see the same thing happen on starting to see the same thing happen on the right as well. And so ultimately the right as well. And so ultimately the right as well. And so ultimately that is what is at stake. And when I that is what is at stake. And when I that is what is at stake. And when I look at the church in the New Testament look at the church in the New Testament look at the church in the New Testament specifically, we did a study of the specifically, we did a study of the specifically, we did a study of the seven letters to the seven churches in seven letters to the seven churches in seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation and how Jesus does not in his Revelation and how Jesus does not in his Revelation and how Jesus does not in his addresses to them, he does not ignore addresses to them, he does not ignore addresses to them, he does not ignore what is happening around the world. He what is happening around the world. He what is happening around the world. He acknowledges it. But then he his his

acknowledges it. But then he his his acknowledges it. But then he his his conclusion is not and therefore you know conclusion is not and therefore you know conclusion is not and therefore you know overthrow the government and therefore overthrow the government and therefore overthrow the government and therefore you know change the world in in XYZ. you know change the world in in XYZ. you know change the world in in XYZ. Instead, he says, "This is why your Instead, he says, "This is why your Instead, he says, "This is why your integrity as the distinct people of God integrity as the distinct people of God integrity as the distinct people of God is your primary influence in this world. is your primary influence in this world. is your primary influence in this world. Your faithfulness to Jesus, that is your Your faithfulness to Jesus, that is your Your faithfulness to Jesus, that is your superpower." And so, I my encouragement superpower." And so, I my encouragement superpower." And so, I my encouragement to pastors who are listening is is to pastors who are listening is is to pastors who are listening is is especially if you tuned in thinking, especially if you tuned in thinking, especially if you tuned in thinking, okay, what is the thing? What's the okay, what is the thing? What's the okay, what is the thing? What's the answer, you know, to how I lead in this answer, you know, to how I lead in this answer, you know, to how I lead in this moment? Like, how do I respond the next moment? Like, how do I respond the next moment? Like, how do I respond the next time something comes across the time something comes across the time something comes across the headlines? And yes, that is that headlines? And yes, that is that headlines? And yes, that is that requires wisdom and discernment and requires wisdom and discernment and requires wisdom and discernment and prayer. But my bigger question for you prayer. But my bigger question for you prayer. But my bigger question for you is what is your long-term vision? Like is what is your long-term vision? Like is what is your long-term vision? Like at the end of your, you know, ministry at the end of your, you know, ministry at the end of your, you know, ministry call, where do you want to have taken call, where do you want to have taken call, where do you want to have taken your church? Who do you want your church your church? Who do you want your church your church? Who do you want your church to be? And to start working towards that to be? And to start working towards that to be? And to start working towards that because we need to be shephering our because we need to be shephering our because we need to be shephering our churches to be these distinct people who churches to be these distinct people who churches to be these distinct people who have a very clear allegiance to Jesus have a very clear allegiance to Jesus have a very clear allegiance to Jesus over any other partisan party. And if over any other partisan party. And if over any other partisan party. And if you criticize a candidate and everyone you criticize a candidate and everyone you criticize a candidate and everyone in your church is scandalized, that is a in your church is scandalized, that is a in your church is scandalized, that is a good indication that that was not clear good indication that that was not clear good indication that that was not clear and that there is disciplehip work to and that there is disciplehip work to and that there is disciplehip work to do. And so I I think the invitation for do. And so I I think the invitation for do. And so I I think the invitation for all of us is to be doing that that all of us is to be doing that that all of us is to be doing that that long-term work.

>> Other thoughts >> Other thoughts add to um this as well. Um I I think I add to um this as well. Um I I think I add to um this as well. Um I I think I mean this is right on what Sharon said mean this is right on what Sharon said mean this is right on what Sharon said is part of the challenge particularly is part of the challenge particularly is part of the challenge particularly let's say you've now basically you know let's say you've now basically you know let's say you've now basically you know you're you've engaged in the uh the the you're you've engaged in the uh the the you're you've engaged in the uh the the dissident right or the woke right and dissident right or the woke right and dissident right or the woke right and now you're just you know consistently now you're just you know consistently now you're just you know consistently going to be attacking anyone that's uh going to be attacking anyone that's uh going to be attacking anyone that's uh you know even slightly not as you know even slightly not as you know even slightly not as conservative as you um and you're a conservative as you um and you're a conservative as you um and you're a pastor and a church leader. I I guess pastor and a church leader. I I guess pastor and a church leader. I I guess for me I have a hard time um seeing it for me I have a hard time um seeing it for me I have a hard time um seeing it as as as a serious desire to call balls as as as a serious desire to call balls as as as a serious desire to call balls and strikes in culture if you would and strikes in culture if you would and strikes in culture if you would never call out what casual cruelty that never call out what casual cruelty that never call out what casual cruelty that casual cruelty is just not something we casual cruelty is just not something we casual cruelty is just not something we want our government to manifest as a as want our government to manifest as a as want our government to manifest as a as a as a strategy or or um you know the a as a strategy or or um you know the a as a strategy or or um you know the way people speak of immigrants and way people speak of immigrants and way people speak of immigrants and refugees um just even the way they speak refugees um just even the way they speak refugees um just even the way they speak of them I mean again people are made in of them I mean again people are made in of them I mean again people are made in the image of not worthy of dignity and the image of not worthy of dignity and the image of not worthy of dignity and respect. And so if you uh if you never respect. And so if you uh if you never respect. And so if you uh if you never call out some of those things on the call out some of those things on the call out some of those things on the other hand, you know, if you're kind of other hand, you know, if you're kind of other hand, you know, if you're kind of so, you know, kind of so want to just so, you know, kind of so want to just so, you know, kind of so want to just get along with everybody, particularly get along with everybody, particularly get along with everybody, particularly in our cultural mood today, that you in our cultural mood today, that you in our cultural mood today, that you never teach on, you know, the the the never teach on, you know, the the the never teach on, you know, the the the reality of of of why the loss of a reality of of of why the loss of a reality of of of why the loss of a biblical vision of marriage and what biblical vision of marriage and what biblical vision of marriage and what marriage is is so judgmental to the marriage is is so judgmental to the marriage is is so judgmental to the culture or what how the confusion around culture or what how the confusion around culture or what how the confusion around gender and sex and and sexuality. And gender and sex and and sexuality. And gender and sex and and sexuality. And and I will tell you, you get people mad and I will tell you, you get people mad and I will tell you, you get people mad at you all the time. Like again, I've I at you all the time. Like again, I've I at you all the time. Like again, I've I mean, I've had the death threats. We had mean, I've had the death threats. We had mean, I've had the death threats. We had to take we had to take security

to take we had to take security to take we had to take security precautions when I defended traditional precautions when I defended traditional precautions when I defended traditional marriage in in response to a USA Today marriage in in response to a USA Today marriage in in response to a USA Today article in USA Today. And it it became article in USA Today. And it it became article in USA Today. And it it became the the number one article for for two the the number one article for for two the the number one article for for two days right in the top corner by the days right in the top corner by the days right in the top corner by the number of readers. And I got to tell number of readers. And I got to tell number of readers. And I got to tell you, we had to take precautions at our you, we had to take precautions at our you, we had to take precautions at our family, you know, and and so I I would family, you know, and and so I I would family, you know, and and so I I would just tell you that it is easier to just tell you that it is easier to just tell you that it is easier to critique the people that people like you critique the people that people like you critique the people that people like you to critique, but it is biblical if to critique, but it is biblical if to critique, but it is biblical if you're going to be in this space, but it you're going to be in this space, but it you're going to be in this space, but it is biblical. I using the baseball exam is biblical. I using the baseball exam is biblical. I using the baseball exam to call balls and strikes, but it's to call balls and strikes, but it's to call balls and strikes, but it's biblical to to say we're going to speak biblical to to say we're going to speak biblical to to say we're going to speak truth, biblical truth. And and this is truth, biblical truth. And and this is truth, biblical truth. And and this is where people get mad because what what where people get mad because what what where people get mad because what what people want to do is they they they want people want to do is they they they want people want to do is they they they want you to be prophetic about the things you to be prophetic about the things you to be prophetic about the things that they agree with you on. But the that they agree with you on. But the that they agree with you on. But the Bible, Bible, Bible, >> this is one of the reasons for me, one >> this is one of the reasons for me, one >> this is one of the reasons for me, one of the reasons I love preaching through of the reasons I love preaching through of the reasons I love preaching through books of the Bible, because you get to books of the Bible, because you get to books of the Bible, because you get to books of the Bible, and it's got stuff books of the Bible, and it's got stuff books of the Bible, and it's got stuff in there that you wouldn't normally in there that you wouldn't normally in there that you wouldn't normally cover, but it forces you to cover those cover, but it forces you to cover those cover, but it forces you to cover those things as well. And that's so what I things as well. And that's so what I things as well. And that's so what I would say is if you're going to step would say is if you're going to step would say is if you're going to step into this cultural space, which I I into this cultural space, which I I into this cultural space, which I I think to some degree we all have to when think to some degree we all have to when think to some degree we all have to when we teach on controversial issues, you we teach on controversial issues, you we teach on controversial issues, you know, soon after the release of this know, soon after the release of this know, soon after the release of this podcast, I'm preaching at First Baptist podcast, I'm preaching at First Baptist podcast, I'm preaching at First Baptist Glenn Arden. Um, John Jenkins is the Glenn Arden. Um, John Jenkins is the Glenn Arden. Um, John Jenkins is the pastor there. It's I think it's the pastor there. It's I think it's the pastor there. It's I think it's the largest black church in Maryland, one of largest black church in Maryland, one of largest black church in Maryland, one of the largest in uh in uh in the DC area.

the largest in uh in uh in the DC area. the largest in uh in uh in the DC area. And and I love the fact that he clearly And and I love the fact that he clearly And and I love the fact that he clearly articulated a pro-life biblical ethic in articulated a pro-life biblical ethic in articulated a pro-life biblical ethic in that church in addition to calling out that church in addition to calling out that church in addition to calling out things that were of perhaps greater things that were of perhaps greater things that were of perhaps greater concern in his community, but because of concern in his community, but because of concern in his community, but because of a consistent biblical ethic, I I I think a consistent biblical ethic, I I I think a consistent biblical ethic, I I I think that that matters. And and so, you know, that that matters. And and so, you know, that that matters. And and so, you know, if you only particularly on social if you only particularly on social if you only particularly on social media, social media like when you say media, social media like when you say media, social media like when you say things and it's always fascinating to me things and it's always fascinating to me things and it's always fascinating to me like I'll say something, for example, I like I'll say something, for example, I like I'll say something, for example, I thought the um I thought the the uh Don thought the um I thought the the uh Don thought the um I thought the the uh Don Lemon connected protest in city's church Lemon connected protest in city's church Lemon connected protest in city's church was egregious and and I and I I I I was egregious and and I and I I I I was egregious and and I and I I I I shared something about it and then shared something about it and then shared something about it and then people like, well, what about this? people like, well, what about this? people like, well, what about this? Well, what about this? Well, what about Well, what about this? Well, what about Well, what about this? Well, what about this? And I'm kind of like, scroll up, this? And I'm kind of like, scroll up, this? And I'm kind of like, scroll up, bro. It's like I just mentioned this, bro. It's like I just mentioned this, bro. It's like I just mentioned this, you know, but this is the whole you know, but this is the whole you know, but this is the whole ecosystems out there and it's what ecosystems out there and it's what ecosystems out there and it's what aboutism. It's actually a Soviet tactic aboutism. It's actually a Soviet tactic aboutism. It's actually a Soviet tactic called what aboutism. Every time America called what aboutism. Every time America called what aboutism. Every time America would say something about Soviet Union, would say something about Soviet Union, would say something about Soviet Union, they'd say, "Well, what about?" Well, they'd say, "Well, what about?" Well, they'd say, "Well, what about?" Well, here's the thing. First of all, have here's the thing. First of all, have here's the thing. First of all, have some courage and speak up. And when you some courage and speak up. And when you some courage and speak up. And when you speak up, don't just speak up in in the speak up, don't just speak up in in the speak up, don't just speak up in in the area that your tribe agrees with as area that your tribe agrees with as area that your tribe agrees with as well. If the Bible points a different well. If the Bible points a different well. If the Bible points a different direction, point a different direction.

direction, point a different direction. direction, point a different direction. And you do that, you're going to speak And you do that, you're going to speak And you do that, you're going to speak differently of immigrants and refugees. differently of immigrants and refugees. differently of immigrants and refugees. You're going to speak in differently of You're going to speak in differently of You're going to speak in differently of of of of the unborn at at multiple of of of the unborn at at multiple of of of the unborn at at multiple levels and you're going to confuse some levels and you're going to confuse some levels and you're going to confuse some people, but I think Jesus is going to be people, but I think Jesus is going to be people, but I think Jesus is going to be pleased and he's going to be honored by pleased and he's going to be honored by pleased and he's going to be honored by where you stood. where you stood. where you stood. >> Adam, any final thoughts on that? >> Adam, any final thoughts on that? >> Adam, any final thoughts on that? Getting attacked by the bears if you Getting attacked by the bears if you Getting attacked by the bears if you feed him. feed him. feed him. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh I mean I think just my >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh I mean I think just my >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh I mean I think just my closing thoughts on it is really the you closing thoughts on it is really the you closing thoughts on it is really the you know some of the what I see as know some of the what I see as know some of the what I see as cautionary more so than than a challenge cautionary more so than than a challenge cautionary more so than than a challenge is that I feel especially kind of my is that I feel especially kind of my is that I feel especially kind of my generation and below uh maybe some Gen X generation and below uh maybe some Gen X generation and below uh maybe some Gen X as well um we're falling prey to um as well um we're falling prey to um as well um we're falling prey to um adopting our argument and answer styles adopting our argument and answer styles adopting our argument and answer styles to what culture does and so I think the to what culture does and so I think the to what culture does and so I think the past uh kind of political cycles you've past uh kind of political cycles you've past uh kind of political cycles you've started seeing that politicians they started seeing that politicians they started seeing that politicians they don't even debate facts anymore. It it's don't even debate facts anymore. It it's don't even debate facts anymore. It it's just sound bites and it's just just sound bites and it's just just sound bites and it's just statements that that like if you go back statements that that like if you go back statements that that like if you go back 15 20 years when you saw political 15 20 years when you saw political 15 20 years when you saw political debates I mean there would be data debates I mean there would be data debates I mean there would be data behind what they were saying and stuff.

behind what they were saying and stuff. behind what they were saying and stuff. Now a lot of it became has become like a Now a lot of it became has become like a Now a lot of it became has become like a lot of personal attacks. It's become a lot of personal attacks. It's become a lot of personal attacks. It's become a lot of things like there's full-on lot of things like there's full-on lot of things like there's full-on organizations that have had to be organizations that have had to be organizations that have had to be created to fact check politicians during created to fact check politicians during created to fact check politicians during their debates and stuff like that didn't their debates and stuff like that didn't their debates and stuff like that didn't exist you know for the most part 15 20 exist you know for the most part 15 20 exist you know for the most part 15 20 years ago. And unfortunately, I see a years ago. And unfortunately, I see a years ago. And unfortunately, I see a lot of pastors who are who are garnering lot of pastors who are who are garnering lot of pastors who are who are garnering that same model of leadership and that same model of leadership and that same model of leadership and communication. And what I mean by that communication. And what I mean by that communication. And what I mean by that is they boiled statements down without is they boiled statements down without is they boiled statements down without any true um it's it's a tick- tock any true um it's it's a tick- tock any true um it's it's a tick- tock theology with no true depth to it. And theology with no true depth to it. And theology with no true depth to it. And so you hear statements to me if they're so you hear statements to me if they're so you hear statements to me if they're not if they if you can't go deeper, then not if they if you can't go deeper, then not if they if you can't go deeper, then you got to be cautious. You hear you got to be cautious. You hear you got to be cautious. You hear statements like, you know, um, well, you statements like, you know, um, well, you statements like, you know, um, well, you know, Jesus was an immigrant in in Egypt know, Jesus was an immigrant in in Egypt know, Jesus was an immigrant in in Egypt and so, you know, there there there's my and so, you know, there there there's my and so, you know, there there there's my statement. And you're like, well, but statement. And you're like, well, but statement. And you're like, well, but Egypt was a province of Rome, you know, Egypt was a province of Rome, you know, Egypt was a province of Rome, you know, and so was Israel. Like, you got to go and so was Israel. Like, you got to go and so was Israel. Like, you got to go deeper. We got to be able to talk deeper deeper. We got to be able to talk deeper deeper. We got to be able to talk deeper about this stuff. Or you hear the about this stuff. Or you hear the about this stuff. Or you hear the opposite. You hear, well, Israel had opposite. You hear, well, Israel had opposite. You hear, well, Israel had borders, you know, look look at the Old borders, you know, look look at the Old borders, you know, look look at the Old Testament. And it's just we make these Testament. And it's just we make these Testament. And it's just we make these statements without any true conversation statements without any true conversation statements without any true conversation as pastoral leaders about what's as pastoral leaders about what's as pastoral leaders about what's happening. You know, racism isn't real happening. You know, racism isn't real happening. You know, racism isn't real because we got Obama and he was a black because we got Obama and he was a black because we got Obama and he was a black president. And so you have these state president. And so you have these state president. And so you have these state and I'm hearing pastors say this stuff and I'm hearing pastors say this stuff and I'm hearing pastors say this stuff and I'm going, man, we we have to do and I'm going, man, we we have to do and I'm going, man, we we have to do better if we're going to help lead better if we're going to help lead better if we're going to help lead people to critically think about the people to critically think about the people to critically think about the word of God and how it applies to word of God and how it applies to word of God and how it applies to culture. I'm all for it. You know, I do culture. I'm all for it. You know, I do culture. I'm all for it. You know, I do a lot of it on my podcast. I do some of a lot of it on my podcast. I do some of a lot of it on my podcast. I do some of it in the pulpit, but for the most part

it in the pulpit, but for the most part it in the pulpit, but for the most part for me, I'm trying to do more long form for me, I'm trying to do more long form for me, I'm trying to do more long form stuff so that I could really thoroughly stuff so that I could really thoroughly stuff so that I could really thoroughly explain the the critical thinking. I explain the the critical thinking. I explain the the critical thinking. I mean, I think what Ed said was perfect. mean, I think what Ed said was perfect. mean, I think what Ed said was perfect. It's like people are always like, "Well, It's like people are always like, "Well, It's like people are always like, "Well, what about?" And he's like, "Just scroll what about?" And he's like, "Just scroll what about?" And he's like, "Just scroll up." There's so many times people are up." There's so many times people are up." There's so many times people are like, "Well, when are you going to talk like, "Well, when are you going to talk like, "Well, when are you going to talk about immigration?" Well, three months about immigration?" Well, three months about immigration?" Well, three months ago, I did a whole episode with Will ago, I did a whole episode with Will ago, I did a whole episode with Will Chung on immigration. Go to my content. Chung on immigration. Go to my content. Chung on immigration. Go to my content. It literally says it in the Well, I It literally says it in the Well, I It literally says it in the Well, I don't want to do that. Send me the link. don't want to do that. Send me the link. don't want to do that. Send me the link. And I'm like, if you're going to And I'm like, if you're going to And I'm like, if you're going to approach this lazily, then I I don't I approach this lazily, then I I don't I approach this lazily, then I I don't I don't have anything to say to you. No, don't have anything to say to you. No, don't have anything to say to you. No, you know, or I'll talk to individuals you know, or I'll talk to individuals you know, or I'll talk to individuals who have these strong beliefs on stuff who have these strong beliefs on stuff who have these strong beliefs on stuff and you'll go deeper and then that was and you'll go deeper and then that was and you'll go deeper and then that was it. It's like, oh well, I actually took it. It's like, oh well, I actually took it. It's like, oh well, I actually took that from this other pastor that is that from this other pastor that is that from this other pastor that is really wellknown and I just like the way really wellknown and I just like the way really wellknown and I just like the way he says it. So that's why and then I he says it. So that's why and then I he says it. So that's why and then I just regurgitated it and I don't really just regurgitated it and I don't really just regurgitated it and I don't really know why I think what what I just know why I think what what I just know why I think what what I just shared. And so I think more so not the shared. And so I think more so not the shared. And so I think more so not the challenge but just a caution that if you challenge but just a caution that if you challenge but just a caution that if you are going to feel led like I mean and Ed are going to feel led like I mean and Ed are going to feel led like I mean and Ed has you know has led the plow on this has you know has led the plow on this has you know has led the plow on this and stuff like if you're going to get and stuff like if you're going to get and stuff like if you're going to get into cultural commentating then please into cultural commentating then please into cultural commentating then please make sure that you are well read please make sure that you are well read please make sure that you are well read please make sure that you are understanding of make sure that you are understanding of make sure that you are understanding of what's really going make sure you what's really going make sure you what's really going make sure you understand laws and policy if you're understand laws and policy if you're understand laws and policy if you're going to talk about laws and policy you going to talk about laws and policy you going to talk about laws and policy you know do do the work so that um I do know do do the work so that um I do know do do the work so that um I do think we are held accountable you know, think we are held accountable you know, think we are held accountable you know, for what we teach and preach at the end for what we teach and preach at the end for what we teach and preach at the end of the day. And so for me, I I the of the day. And so for me, I I the of the day. And so for me, I I the reason why a lot of people are like, reason why a lot of people are like, reason why a lot of people are like, "Hey, talk about this more." I'm like, "Hey, talk about this more." I'm like, "Hey, talk about this more." I'm like, I'm still processing it and I know the B I'm still processing it and I know the B I'm still processing it and I know the B like I I lose sleep at night knowing

like I I lose sleep at night knowing like I I lose sleep at night knowing that God has put a responsibility on me that God has put a responsibility on me that God has put a responsibility on me to pastor and teach the word well. And to pastor and teach the word well. And to pastor and teach the word well. And so, um, until I feel that I can frame so, um, until I feel that I can frame so, um, until I feel that I can frame and I can always give raw thoughts and I and I can always give raw thoughts and I and I can always give raw thoughts and I do say that honestly. Hey, this is raw do say that honestly. Hey, this is raw do say that honestly. Hey, this is raw thinking. I'm still processing this. But thinking. I'm still processing this. But thinking. I'm still processing this. But I I really treat what I say as something I I really treat what I say as something I I really treat what I say as something like you say Carrie. Oh, we can edit like you say Carrie. Oh, we can edit like you say Carrie. Oh, we can edit stuff out. I want to make sure that if stuff out. I want to make sure that if stuff out. I want to make sure that if I'm talking on here, I don't want to I'm talking on here, I don't want to I'm talking on here, I don't want to edit really anything out because I want edit really anything out because I want edit really anything out because I want to I want to be have showed up to I want to be have showed up to I want to be have showed up thoroughly and thoughtfully that I don't thoroughly and thoughtfully that I don't thoroughly and thoughtfully that I don't feel like I had any oopsies or uh oh, feel like I had any oopsies or uh oh, feel like I had any oopsies or uh oh, and if I did, I'm human. But I want to and if I did, I'm human. But I want to and if I did, I'm human. But I want to make sure it's like, oh yeah, no, I'm make sure it's like, oh yeah, no, I'm make sure it's like, oh yeah, no, I'm good. I just fly off the cuff. I don't good. I just fly off the cuff. I don't good. I just fly off the cuff. I don't want to do that. And I think too many want to do that. And I think too many want to do that. And I think too many leaders right now are doing that. And leaders right now are doing that. And leaders right now are doing that. And they should be very cautious. uh because they should be very cautious. uh because they should be very cautious. uh because at some point, you know, the the it's at some point, you know, the the it's at some point, you know, the the it's going to bite the hand that is feeding going to bite the hand that is feeding going to bite the hand that is feeding it. And um I just hate seeing so many it. And um I just hate seeing so many it. And um I just hate seeing so many pastoral leaders like they were like pastoral leaders like they were like pastoral leaders like they were like this, they were on a rise and then now this, they were on a rise and then now this, they were on a rise and then now it's just like they're non-existent it's just like they're non-existent it's just like they're non-existent because they were kind of riding this because they were kind of riding this because they were kind of riding this wave of culture. And uh to me it's, you wave of culture. And uh to me it's, you wave of culture. And uh to me it's, you know, w ride the wave of scripture. Be know, w ride the wave of scripture. Be know, w ride the wave of scripture. Be consistent as a pastor. I want to make consistent as a pastor. I want to make consistent as a pastor. I want to make it to 80 and 90. I don't want to be it to 80 and 90. I don't want to be it to 80 and 90. I don't want to be famous at 35, you know, for having a famous at 35, you know, for having a famous at 35, you know, for having a great take on Instagram. It's just for great take on Instagram. It's just for great take on Instagram. It's just for me and I think I think we all should get me and I think I think we all should get me and I think I think we all should get a little bit more sober minded with with a little bit more sober minded with with a little bit more sober minded with with that approach.

that approach. that approach. >> I appreciate too and I think all of you >> I appreciate too and I think all of you >> I appreciate too and I think all of you would fit into this category the desire would fit into this category the desire would fit into this category the desire to teach people how to think rather than to teach people how to think rather than to teach people how to think rather than what to think and you can build a pretty what to think and you can build a pretty what to think and you can build a pretty big platform right now on this is what big platform right now on this is what big platform right now on this is what you should think about this that and the you should think about this that and the you should think about this that and the other thing but how to think I think is other thing but how to think I think is other thing but how to think I think is an endangered species. Well, you know, I an endangered species. Well, you know, I an endangered species. Well, you know, I said at the beginning before we hit said at the beginning before we hit said at the beginning before we hit record, I'm like, if all we get out of record, I'm like, if all we get out of record, I'm like, if all we get out of this hour, hour and a half is empathy, this hour, hour and a half is empathy, this hour, hour and a half is empathy, I'm happy because it's really I'm happy because it's really I'm happy because it's really complicated. But we got way more than I complicated. But we got way more than I complicated. But we got way more than I had bargained for. This has been really had bargained for. This has been really had bargained for. This has been really helpful. And honestly, just helpful. And honestly, just helpful. And honestly, just transparently, this has been helpful to transparently, this has been helpful to transparently, this has been helpful to me cuz I wrestle with these things, too. me cuz I wrestle with these things, too. me cuz I wrestle with these things, too. But I want you to each close with a word But I want you to each close with a word But I want you to each close with a word to a pastor who's, you know, the latest to a pastor who's, you know, the latest to a pastor who's, you know, the latest Barna data months old, 24% still want to Barna data months old, 24% still want to Barna data months old, 24% still want to hang up their skates. they're still hang up their skates. they're still hang up their skates. they're still done. Like I I've given serious real done. Like I I've given serious real done. Like I I've given serious real consideration to quitting ministry and consideration to quitting ministry and consideration to quitting ministry and this is feeding that like what we've this is feeding that like what we've this is feeding that like what we've talked about today how hard it is to say talked about today how hard it is to say talked about today how hard it is to say something adds to the immense stress of something adds to the immense stress of something adds to the immense stress of the job. So I would love for you to just the job. So I would love for you to just the job. So I would love for you to just speak to that pastor who's thinking of speak to that pastor who's thinking of speak to that pastor who's thinking of giving it up. I think you've given her giving it up. I think you've given her giving it up. I think you've given her or him real hope today. Uh but what's a or him real hope today. Uh but what's a or him real hope today. Uh but what's a what's a final word you might say to what's a final word you might say to what's a final word you might say to that church leader who's like, "Yeah, I that church leader who's like, "Yeah, I that church leader who's like, "Yeah, I can't do this anymore. It's too hard.

can't do this anymore. It's too hard. can't do this anymore. It's too hard. >> So, I was recently >> So, I was recently >> So, I was recently talking, this is like a name drop, but talking, this is like a name drop, but talking, this is like a name drop, but uh with Beth Moore, and she had said uh with Beth Moore, and she had said uh with Beth Moore, and she had said that that that >> Who is that? >> Who is that? >> Who is that? >> Up andcoming uh writer, teacher. >> Up andcoming uh writer, teacher. >> Up andcoming uh writer, teacher. >> She is she on Instagram? >> Um no, she said something. The reason >> Um no, she said something. The reason I'm mentioning her, she said something I'm mentioning her, she said something I'm mentioning her, she said something I've actually been thinking about a lot I've actually been thinking about a lot I've actually been thinking about a lot in the last week. in the last week. in the last week. She had posted about how She had posted about how She had posted about how she had a big event coming up and she had a big event coming up and she had a big event coming up and something happened something happened something happened difficult in her family right beforehand difficult in her family right beforehand difficult in her family right beforehand and they were just sort of running on and they were just sort of running on and they were just sort of running on fumes through this event and how the fumes through this event and how the fumes through this event and how the Lord was so faithful in spite of their Lord was so faithful in spite of their Lord was so faithful in spite of their weakness. weakness. weakness. And I had responded to her and I said, And I had responded to her and I said, And I had responded to her and I said, you know, I feel like you know, I feel like you know, I feel like he actually does a lot of his best work he actually does a lot of his best work he actually does a lot of his best work in those moments. and she said, "Yeah, in those moments. and she said, "Yeah, in those moments. and she said, "Yeah, you know, we we talk often about this you know, we we talk often about this you know, we we talk often about this ministry of reliance."

ministry of reliance." ministry of reliance." And I I've been thinking about that a And I I've been thinking about that a And I I've been thinking about that a lot because I do tend to resent the lot because I do tend to resent the lot because I do tend to resent the aspects of ministry aspects of ministry aspects of ministry that force me to depend on him. That's that force me to depend on him. That's that force me to depend on him. That's that's really what it is. and the number that's really what it is. and the number that's really what it is. and the number of times that I of times that I of times that I >> I think h you know this would be so much >> I think h you know this would be so much >> I think h you know this would be so much easier if I didn't have to deal with easier if I didn't have to deal with easier if I didn't have to deal with this or that. this or that. this or that. >> And really what I'm saying is I don't >> And really what I'm saying is I don't >> And really what I'm saying is I don't want to have to depend on the Lord in want to have to depend on the Lord in want to have to depend on the Lord in this particular part of my calling. And this particular part of my calling. And this particular part of my calling. And so that for me was a really helpful so that for me was a really helpful so that for me was a really helpful reframe for the things that I really reframe for the things that I really reframe for the things that I really really resent and wish were different in really resent and wish were different in really resent and wish were different in ministry that that maybe this is an ministry that that maybe this is an ministry that that maybe this is an invitation to the ministry of reliance. invitation to the ministry of reliance. invitation to the ministry of reliance. >> I resent the things that make me depend >> I resent the things that make me depend >> I resent the things that make me depend on God. All right, we'll have to edit on God. All right, we'll have to edit on God. All right, we'll have to edit that out, but thank you so much for that out, but thank you so much for that out, but thank you so much for showing up, Sharon. Boy, does that showing up, Sharon. Boy, does that showing up, Sharon. Boy, does that resonate. Boy, does that resonate. So resonate. Boy, does that resonate. So resonate. Boy, does that resonate. So >> that's going to be the only thing that >> that's going to be the only thing that >> that's going to be the only thing that people remember from this podcast is people remember from this podcast is people remember from this podcast is that sentence go that sentence go that sentence go autobiographical. Adam, how about you?

autobiographical. Adam, how about you? autobiographical. Adam, how about you? What what would you say to the person What what would you say to the person What what would you say to the person who's just hanging in by a thread and who's just hanging in by a thread and who's just hanging in by a thread and tired by it all? tired by it all? tired by it all? >> I think it just short I could I could >> I think it just short I could I could >> I think it just short I could I could probably make it personal and hopefully probably make it personal and hopefully probably make it personal and hopefully someone can uh you know grab grab someone can uh you know grab grab someone can uh you know grab grab something from it, you know. Um but for something from it, you know. Um but for something from it, you know. Um but for me, I've really just found myself in me, I've really just found myself in me, I've really just found myself in this season. Um really just continually this season. Um really just continually this season. Um really just continually reflecting on Psalm 23, really trusting reflecting on Psalm 23, really trusting reflecting on Psalm 23, really trusting that Jesus is the good shepherd. Um that that Jesus is the good shepherd. Um that that Jesus is the good shepherd. Um that God has a care. And I, you know, I grew God has a care. And I, you know, I grew God has a care. And I, you know, I grew up in the black church, so there's up in the black church, so there's up in the black church, so there's always sayings in the black church. And always sayings in the black church. And always sayings in the black church. And there was a saying, if he called you to there was a saying, if he called you to there was a saying, if he called you to it, he'll get you through it, you know, it, he'll get you through it, you know, it, he'll get you through it, you know, and it's just reminding myself that, um, and it's just reminding myself that, um, and it's just reminding myself that, um, you know, this thing that God has called you know, this thing that God has called you know, this thing that God has called me to, specifically pastoring and me to, specifically pastoring and me to, specifically pastoring and leading um that it's not my burden to leading um that it's not my burden to leading um that it's not my burden to fully carry um that this is something fully carry um that this is something fully carry um that this is something that Christ is leading through me and in that Christ is leading through me and in that Christ is leading through me and in me and by the power of the Holy Spirit. me and by the power of the Holy Spirit. me and by the power of the Holy Spirit. So really hoping to dwell um with God So really hoping to dwell um with God So really hoping to dwell um with God and in Christ regularly, making sure I and in Christ regularly, making sure I and in Christ regularly, making sure I have healthy rhythms where I'm being have healthy rhythms where I'm being have healthy rhythms where I'm being restored, my soul is being replenished. restored, my soul is being replenished. restored, my soul is being replenished. But ultimately, if I can give one But ultimately, if I can give one But ultimately, if I can give one practical advice that if someone is practical advice that if someone is practical advice that if someone is thinking of throwing in the towel and I thinking of throwing in the towel and I thinking of throwing in the towel and I and I've really focused on this the past and I've really focused on this the past and I've really focused on this the past 12 months and um man, God has just 12 months and um man, God has just 12 months and um man, God has just refreshed me in so many different ways.

refreshed me in so many different ways. refreshed me in so many different ways. But um share the gospel with people who But um share the gospel with people who But um share the gospel with people who don't know who you are, you know, don't know who you are, you know, don't know who you are, you know, outside of the pull pit, in your daily outside of the pull pit, in your daily outside of the pull pit, in your daily life, share the gospel with real people life, share the gospel with real people life, share the gospel with real people that you interact with. And I'll tell that you interact with. And I'll tell that you interact with. And I'll tell you, when you see that as they begin to you, when you see that as they begin to you, when you see that as they begin to discover who Jesus is and they light up, discover who Jesus is and they light up, discover who Jesus is and they light up, that puts such a fire. I mean, because that puts such a fire. I mean, because that puts such a fire. I mean, because so much for us as pastors, what we're so much for us as pastors, what we're so much for us as pastors, what we're doing is counseling people that are doing is counseling people that are doing is counseling people that are already like kind of pursuing faith, already like kind of pursuing faith, already like kind of pursuing faith, pulpit stuff. We're very rarely pulpit stuff. We're very rarely pulpit stuff. We're very rarely interacting with someone who God is interacting with someone who God is interacting with someone who God is igniting that first entrylevel flame. igniting that first entrylevel flame. igniting that first entrylevel flame. And so, I think of one guy that I know And so, I think of one guy that I know And so, I think of one guy that I know that's really influential in Los that's really influential in Los that's really influential in Los Angeles. He just finally started. He's Angeles. He just finally started. He's Angeles. He just finally started. He's not even believer. He's an atheist. He not even believer. He's an atheist. He not even believer. He's an atheist. He just started reading the Bible for the just started reading the Bible for the just started reading the Bible for the first time. And I was with him a couple first time. And I was with him a couple first time. And I was with him a couple weeks ago. And he said, "Adam, when weeks ago. And he said, "Adam, when weeks ago. And he said, "Adam, when people go into those little wooden boxes people go into those little wooden boxes people go into those little wooden boxes to confess to you, do you ever share to confess to you, do you ever share to confess to you, do you ever share with other people what they've told with other people what they've told with other people what they've told you?" And I was just like, we just had a you?" And I was just like, we just had a you?" And I was just like, we just had a fun 30 minute conversation where I'm fun 30 minute conversation where I'm fun 30 minute conversation where I'm like, "Dude, I'm not I'm not Catholic, like, "Dude, I'm not I'm not Catholic, like, "Dude, I'm not I'm not Catholic, you know?" And and he was like, "What's you know?" And and he was like, "What's you know?" And and he was like, "What's that? What's the difference?" You know, that? What's the difference?" You know, that? What's the difference?" You know, and I said, "Well, you know, and so we and I said, "Well, you know, and so we and I said, "Well, you know, and so we just started laughing. I started just started laughing. I started just started laughing. I started explaining him and then I also started explaining him and then I also started explaining him and then I also started sharing like you could tell me anything sharing like you could tell me anything sharing like you could tell me anything and as long as it's not these specific and as long as it's not these specific and as long as it's not these specific legal things like I'm a licensed legal things like I'm a licensed legal things like I'm a licensed minister I have to keep it between us minister I have to keep it between us minister I have to keep it between us and he was like no way you guys have and he was like no way you guys have and he was like no way you guys have licenses that could be revoked and so he licenses that could be revoked and so he licenses that could be revoked and so he had this whole light up and then had this whole light up and then had this whole light up and then obviously it leads into questions about obviously it leads into questions about obviously it leads into questions about Jesus and and I just left not thinking Jesus and and I just left not thinking Jesus and and I just left not thinking about the algorithm not thinking about

about the algorithm not thinking about about the algorithm not thinking about my sermon I have to preach on Sunday my sermon I have to preach on Sunday my sermon I have to preach on Sunday just praying for that friend that God is just praying for that friend that God is just praying for that friend that God is doing he just recently got his first doing he just recently got his first doing he just recently got his first Bible He's asking questions about Bible He's asking questions about Bible He's asking questions about confession. His dog recently broke her confession. His dog recently broke her confession. His dog recently broke her leg. He asked me to pray for his dog. I leg. He asked me to pray for his dog. I leg. He asked me to pray for his dog. I mean, just things that for me that I'm mean, just things that for me that I'm mean, just things that for me that I'm just like, Lord, you know, lead me just like, Lord, you know, lead me just like, Lord, you know, lead me beside. To me, that's still waters. You beside. To me, that's still waters. You beside. To me, that's still waters. You know, that's green grass and and I'm know, that's green grass and and I'm know, that's green grass and and I'm finding life in that. Um, and so I just finding life in that. Um, and so I just finding life in that. Um, and so I just that's where I would encourage a pastor that's where I would encourage a pastor that's where I would encourage a pastor is, hey, I you know, try to get out the is, hey, I you know, try to get out the is, hey, I you know, try to get out the four walls and and meet people who are four walls and and meet people who are four walls and and meet people who are who are hungry for the things of God in who are hungry for the things of God in who are hungry for the things of God in this season. Hm. Ed, I'll give you the this season. Hm. Ed, I'll give you the this season. Hm. Ed, I'll give you the final word, word of encouragement. final word, word of encouragement. final word, word of encouragement. >> Yeah, I think I think Adam's comments >> Yeah, I think I think Adam's comments >> Yeah, I think I think Adam's comments there just sort of point to the fact there just sort of point to the fact there just sort of point to the fact that in real life is different than that in real life is different than that in real life is different than what's going on in social media. And I what's going on in social media. And I what's going on in social media. And I think that sometimes people and I think think that sometimes people and I think think that sometimes people and I think that anxiety is is often found in people that anxiety is is often found in people that anxiety is is often found in people who are more heavily involved in social who are more heavily involved in social who are more heavily involved in social media, the anxiety Sharon mentioned. And media, the anxiety Sharon mentioned. And media, the anxiety Sharon mentioned. And what I would say, you know, I mean, it's what I would say, you know, I mean, it's what I would say, you know, I mean, it's kind of weird. the last year, 2025, I kind of weird. the last year, 2025, I kind of weird. the last year, 2025, I spoke to uh more pastors uh than spoke to uh more pastors uh than spoke to uh more pastors uh than probably any year prior to that in in my probably any year prior to that in in my probably any year prior to that in in my ministry.

ministry. ministry. >> And and I got to tell you, like like >> And and I got to tell you, like like >> And and I got to tell you, like like they're excited. God's up to stuff. they're excited. God's up to stuff. they're excited. God's up to stuff. Things are uh you know, Carrie, we've Things are uh you know, Carrie, we've Things are uh you know, Carrie, we've been at some of these places. Sharon, been at some of these places. Sharon, been at some of these places. Sharon, we've been at some of these places we've been at some of these places we've been at some of these places together. So, and and and there there together. So, and and and there there together. So, and and and there there people like joining arms to to to go on people like joining arms to to to go on people like joining arms to to to go on mission and to share the gospel and mission and to share the gospel and mission and to share the gospel and plant churches. And you go on social plant churches. And you go on social plant churches. And you go on social media, it's like, what in the world's media, it's like, what in the world's media, it's like, what in the world's going on? You know, I look at like going on? You know, I look at like going on? You know, I look at like Biola's healthy, Talbot's booming, and Biola's healthy, Talbot's booming, and Biola's healthy, Talbot's booming, and yet you go on social media, you know, so yet you go on social media, you know, so yet you go on social media, you know, so what happens is I mean, we've got all what happens is I mean, we've got all what happens is I mean, we've got all over the country um churches being over the country um churches being over the country um churches being faithful and yet you might think, well, faithful and yet you might think, well, faithful and yet you might think, well, what about these three or four churches what about these three or four churches what about these three or four churches that are really sort of lost their way that are really sort of lost their way that are really sort of lost their way to the right or to the left and become to the right or to the left and become to the right or to the left and become very vocal? Yeah, but there's like a very vocal? Yeah, but there's like a very vocal? Yeah, but there's like a thousand other churches in the city, you thousand other churches in the city, you thousand other churches in the city, you know, or whatever it may be. So, I I know, or whatever it may be. So, I I know, or whatever it may be. So, I I would say to you is to acknowledge that would say to you is to acknowledge that would say to you is to acknowledge that social media is a warped reflection of social media is a warped reflection of social media is a warped reflection of reality. I'm not saying there's no reality. I'm not saying there's no reality. I'm not saying there's no reality there and I'm not saying it reality there and I'm not saying it reality there and I'm not saying it doesn't bleed over into real life, but doesn't bleed over into real life, but doesn't bleed over into real life, but the reality is is man, I mean, if you the reality is is man, I mean, if you the reality is is man, I mean, if you weren't on social media and you were weren't on social media and you were weren't on social media and you were doing what I'm not saying get off social doing what I'm not saying get off social doing what I'm not saying get off social media, obviously I'm very active on media, obviously I'm very active on media, obviously I'm very active on social media, but and you're just social media, but and you're just social media, but and you're just pastoring your church, you might not pastoring your church, you might not pastoring your church, you might not even be aware because it doesn't come even be aware because it doesn't come even be aware because it doesn't come into the reality of your church into the reality of your church into the reality of your church experience. So, and and the second thing experience. So, and and the second thing experience. So, and and the second thing is I I would say we're going to have to is I I would say we're going to have to is I I would say we're going to have to just um I mean, just to be blunt, it's, just um I mean, just to be blunt, it's, just um I mean, just to be blunt, it's, you know, I tell people all the time, you know, I tell people all the time, you know, I tell people all the time, it's 2026. Nobody gets to do things it's 2026. Nobody gets to do things it's 2026. Nobody gets to do things anymore without criticism. You're you're anymore without criticism. You're you're anymore without criticism. You're you're probably somebody's hero and somebody's probably somebody's hero and somebody's probably somebody's hero and somebody's villain. And if you're not able to be villain. And if you're not able to be villain. And if you're not able to be kind of healthy and walking through kind of healthy and walking through kind of healthy and walking through that, uh then you need to stay out of that, uh then you need to stay out of that, uh then you need to stay out of the public sphere, uh for sure. And

the public sphere, uh for sure. And the public sphere, uh for sure. And there are ways to do that, right? You there are ways to do that, right? You there are ways to do that, right? You don't have to post things online. you'll don't have to post things online. you'll don't have to post things online. you'll just navigate with your church. But if just navigate with your church. But if just navigate with your church. But if you're going to do that, you're going to you're going to do that, you're going to you're going to do that, you're going to have to have a thicker skin. You're have to have a thicker skin. You're have to have a thicker skin. You're going have to grow up. Um you're going going have to grow up. Um you're going going have to grow up. Um you're going to have to just And it's different, you to have to just And it's different, you to have to just And it's different, you know? I mean, I'm I'm in my late 50s. know? I mean, I'm I'm in my late 50s. know? I mean, I'm I'm in my late 50s. I'm in my latest 50s. I'm like months I'm in my latest 50s. I'm like months I'm in my latest 50s. I'm like months away from not being in the 50s and and away from not being in the 50s and and away from not being in the 50s and and I've been doing this for 30 plus years I've been doing this for 30 plus years I've been doing this for 30 plus years and yes, it's a lot more angry and toxic and yes, it's a lot more angry and toxic and yes, it's a lot more angry and toxic than it was 1015 years ago. Fine. So, than it was 1015 years ago. Fine. So, than it was 1015 years ago. Fine. So, this is the reality we find ourselves. this is the reality we find ourselves. this is the reality we find ourselves. If you look at history, this is not If you look at history, this is not If you look at history, this is not unusual in history. even between unusual in history. even between unusual in history. even between evangelicals who just went to war with evangelicals who just went to war with evangelicals who just went to war with each other on more than one occasion. So each other on more than one occasion. So each other on more than one occasion. So my encouragement to you is be faithful, my encouragement to you is be faithful, my encouragement to you is be faithful, be biblical, have courage, and stay on be biblical, have courage, and stay on be biblical, have courage, and stay on mission. Let me say it again. Be mission. Let me say it again. Be mission. Let me say it again. Be faithful, be biblical, have courage, faithful, be biblical, have courage, faithful, be biblical, have courage, stay on mission. And I think those kinds stay on mission. And I think those kinds stay on mission. And I think those kinds of framing things will help you make of framing things will help you make of framing things will help you make wise decisions on what to say, what not wise decisions on what to say, what not wise decisions on what to say, what not to say, and then to navigate the push to say, and then to navigate the push to say, and then to navigate the push back when you say those things. Don't back when you say those things. Don't back when you say those things. Don't don't lack courage, but also stay on don't lack courage, but also stay on don't lack courage, but also stay on mission and have discernment about what mission and have discernment about what mission and have discernment about what to say and when to say it.

to say and when to say it. to say and when to say it. Well, I uh was hoping you could bring a Well, I uh was hoping you could bring a Well, I uh was hoping you could bring a little bit of clarity and some sanity little bit of clarity and some sanity little bit of clarity and some sanity into a rather difficult time and uh I into a rather difficult time and uh I into a rather difficult time and uh I have so much respect for each of you have so much respect for each of you have so much respect for each of you individually, but man, you overd individually, but man, you overd individually, but man, you overd delivered today. So, you spoke to my delivered today. So, you spoke to my delivered today. So, you spoke to my soul on behalf of everybody watching, soul on behalf of everybody watching, soul on behalf of everybody watching, everybody listening. Just want to thank everybody listening. Just want to thank everybody listening. Just want to thank you, Sharon, Adam, Ed, thank you very you, Sharon, Adam, Ed, thank you very you, Sharon, Adam, Ed, thank you very much. Well, that was so helpful to me much. Well, that was so helpful to me much. Well, that was so helpful to me cuz I wrestle with the same thing you cuz I wrestle with the same thing you cuz I wrestle with the same thing you do. I hope it was helpful for you as do. I hope it was helpful for you as do. I hope it was helpful for you as well. We did promise to link to things well. We did promise to link to things well. We did promise to link to things in the show notes. You can go to in the show notes. You can go to in the show notes. You can go to kynewhoff.com/show kynewhoff.com/show kynewhoff.com/show notes where you'll find everything we notes where you'll find everything we notes where you'll find everything we talked about in this episode including talked about in this episode including talked about in this episode including the framework that Sharon shared and the framework that Sharon shared and the framework that Sharon shared and some other insights and books and some other insights and books and some other insights and books and articles etc etc. Or you can click the articles etc etc. Or you can click the articles etc etc. Or you can click the link wherever you're watching or link wherever you're watching or link wherever you're watching or listening to this episode. That's listening to this episode. That's listening to this episode. That's karyneuhoff.comshow. So I hope that was helpful. Hey from So I hope that was helpful. Hey from time to time we may do these emergency time to time we may do these emergency time to time we may do these emergency episodes. We just interrupted what we episodes. We just interrupted what we episodes. We just interrupted what we were doing. Got this up as quickly as we were doing. Got this up as quickly as we were doing. Got this up as quickly as we could and hopefully it was helpful to could and hopefully it was helpful to could and hopefully it was helpful to you. If it was, please leave a rating you. If it was, please leave a rating you. If it was, please leave a rating and review. Maybe share it with your and review. Maybe share it with your and review. Maybe share it with your team, with your friend, with your board.

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