How to Teach on End Times (Revelation) with Max Lucado

[Music] [Music] I think one of the fears a lot of I think one of the fears a lot of I think one of the fears a lot of leaders have is if I go there it's going leaders have is if I go there it's going leaders have is if I go there it's going to bring out the crazies you know the to bring out the crazies you know the to bring out the crazies you know the people who read did you experience that people who read did you experience that people who read did you experience that did you get a lot of unusual traffic did you get a lot of unusual traffic did you get a lot of unusual traffic yeah it's the serengetti of theology it's Where The Wild Game theology it's Where The Wild Game Hunters go and uh and that's part of the Hunters go and uh and that's part of the Hunters go and uh and that's part of the challenge is that um many of the people challenge is that um many of the people challenge is that um many of the people who have who have who have and a few of the people I shouldn't say and a few of the people I shouldn't say and a few of the people I shouldn't say that few of the people who teach in this that few of the people who teach in this that few of the people who teach in this world are absolutely convinced that they world are absolutely convinced that they world are absolutely convinced that they are absolutely correct and you almost are absolutely correct and you almost are absolutely correct and you almost get the impression they know more about get the impression they know more about get the impression they know more about the end times than Jesus does and they the end times than Jesus does and they the end times than Jesus does and they they come across that way and so uh we they come across that way and so uh we they come across that way and so uh we we did have some interesting we did have some interesting we did have some interesting conversations in the foyer with some conversations in the foyer with some conversations in the foyer with some people uh but not too many not too many people uh but not too many not too many people uh but not too many not too many I wouldn't let that keep me from doing I wouldn't let that keep me from doing I wouldn't let that keep me from doing it and it and it and so I say it is a serengetti so I say it is a serengetti so I say it is a serengetti because it is full of numbers and and because it is full of numbers and and because it is full of numbers and and challenging passages and prophetic challenging passages and prophetic challenging passages and prophetic scriptures The Book of Daniel The Book scriptures The Book of Daniel The Book scriptures The Book of Daniel The Book of Revelation th those are enough to of Revelation th those are enough to of Revelation th those are enough to cause people to Run to the Hills but we cause people to Run to the Hills but we cause people to Run to the Hills but we also have the promise that Jesus gave also have the promise that Jesus gave also have the promise that Jesus gave the the followers on the night before the the followers on the night before the the followers on the night before his C crucifixion that the holy spirit his C crucifixion that the holy spirit his C crucifixion that the holy spirit will lead you into all truth it will will lead you into all truth it will will lead you into all truth it will lead you into all truth and so I I I lead you into all truth and so I I I lead you into all truth and so I I I think it's worth it pastors to give it a think it's worth it pastors to give it a think it's worth it pastors to give it a go I do

go I do go I do uh give it a go and um allow your own uh uh give it a go and um allow your own uh uh give it a go and um allow your own uh preconceptions or conceptions I preconceptions or conceptions I preconceptions or conceptions I shouldn't say prec just your conceptions shouldn't say prec just your conceptions shouldn't say prec just your conceptions convictions just just allow them to be convictions just just allow them to be convictions just just allow them to be tested and there might be something that tested and there might be something that tested and there might be something that needs to be tweaked or changed welcome needs to be tweaked or changed welcome needs to be tweaked or changed welcome to the car newoff leadership podcast on to the car newoff leadership podcast on to the car newoff leadership podcast on YouTube hey I'm so glad you joined us YouTube hey I'm so glad you joined us YouTube hey I'm so glad you joined us and if you're new here I hope this and if you're new here I hope this and if you're new here I hope this episode helps you thrive in life and episode helps you thrive in life and episode helps you thrive in life and Leadership I also hope you subscribe Leadership I also hope you subscribe Leadership I also hope you subscribe that way you'll never miss incredible that way you'll never miss incredible that way you'll never miss incredible guests like Max Luc well today's episode guests like Max Luc well today's episode guests like Max Luc well today's episode is brought to you by the art of is brought to you by the art of is brought to you by the art of Leadership Academy what if you could get Leadership Academy what if you could get Leadership Academy what if you could get coaching not just from me but some of coaching not just from me but some of coaching not just from me but some of the guests on this podcast you know that the guests on this podcast you know that the guests on this podcast you know that every single month that's exactly what every single month that's exactly what every single month that's exactly what the leaders inside the art of leadership the leaders inside the art of leadership the leaders inside the art of leadership academy do we hop in a zoom call and academy do we hop in a zoom call and academy do we hop in a zoom call and then we talk through the challenges then we talk through the challenges then we talk through the challenges you're facing so you can learn from each you're facing so you can learn from each you're facing so you can learn from each other from worldclass experts and from other from worldclass experts and from other from worldclass experts and from me and on August 8th Pat lenion the me and on August 8th Pat lenion the me and on August 8th Pat lenion the Patrick lenon is joining us as a special Patrick lenon is joining us as a special Patrick lenon is joining us as a special guest and he's going to be there live to guest and he's going to be there live to guest and he's going to be there live to help you leverage your working genius if help you leverage your working genius if help you leverage your working genius if you want to join in and ask Pat a you want to join in and ask Pat a you want to join in and ask Pat a question live click the link in the question live click the link in the question live click the link in the description of this episode wherever description of this episode wherever description of this episode wherever you're watching or listening or visit you're watching or listening or visit you're watching or listening or visit the artof leadership academy.com and the artof leadership academy.com and the artof leadership academy.com and today's episode is also brought to you today's episode is also brought to you today's episode is also brought to you by Glue what if you could start sending by Glue what if you could start sending by Glue what if you could start sending the right message to the right people at the right message to the right people at the right message to the right people at the right time if you're curious about the right time if you're curious about the right time if you're curious about free text messaging for your church free text messaging for your church free text messaging for your church visit glue. usfree texting to learn more visit glue. usfree texting to learn more visit glue. usfree texting to learn more now Max Luc and I dig into how to teach now Max Luc and I dig into how to teach now Max Luc and I dig into how to teach the end times Max it's time to catch up

the end times Max it's time to catch up the end times Max it's time to catch up now that you're back on the podcast now that you're back on the podcast now that you're back on the podcast welcome back man it's a treat I've been welcome back man it's a treat I've been welcome back man it's a treat I've been looking forward to this all week so so looking forward to this all week so so looking forward to this all week so so grateful that you made time for me well grateful that you made time for me well grateful that you made time for me well I'm grateful that you made time for me I'm grateful that you made time for me I'm grateful that you made time for me and for everybody listening so love your and for everybody listening so love your and for everybody listening so love your new studio you oh thank you yeah we're new studio you oh thank you yeah we're new studio you oh thank you yeah we're still tweaking it you know and you got a still tweaking it you know and you got a still tweaking it you know and you got a new studio too so I don't think it's new studio too so I don't think it's new studio too so I don't think it's anything as fancy as yours I mean you anything as fancy as yours I mean you anything as fancy as yours I mean you could be on late night television with could be on late night television with could be on late night television with that mine's just dark so you you you that mine's just dark so you you you that mine's just dark so you you you can't see anything anymore so we went can't see anything anymore so we went can't see anything anymore so we went from all white start wearing a a bright from all white start wearing a a bright from all white start wearing a a bright yellow shirt or something yeah exactly yellow shirt or something yeah exactly yellow shirt or something yeah exactly when I do the camera goes crazy so I when I do the camera goes crazy so I when I do the camera goes crazy so I have to wear dark clothes now but anyway have to wear dark clothes now but anyway have to wear dark clothes now but anyway that's life we're still tweaking it but that's life we're still tweaking it but that's life we're still tweaking it but it's coming along great Max you know I it's coming along great Max you know I it's coming along great Max you know I said to you we've never met in real life said to you we've never met in real life said to you we've never met in real life but you've been on a few times now and but you've been on a few times now and but you've been on a few times now and every time I catch up with you it's just every time I catch up with you it's just every time I catch up with you it's just like you know you're an old friend like like you know you're an old friend like like you know you're an old friend like we've spent way more time together than we've spent way more time together than we've spent way more time together than we actually have and so uh you've been we actually have and so uh you've been we actually have and so uh you've been very open and honest about your very open and honest about your very open and honest about your struggles as a leader in past episodes struggles as a leader in past episodes struggles as a leader in past episodes and we are in a season where a lot of and we are in a season where a lot of and we are in a season where a lot of leaders like a an astonishing number of leaders like a an astonishing number of leaders like a an astonishing number of leaders are not finishing well uh but leaders are not finishing well uh but leaders are not finishing well uh but we've talked about succession in the we've talked about succession in the we've talked about succession in the past and we'll touch on it a bit today past and we'll touch on it a bit today past and we'll touch on it a bit today you seem to be really settling into this you seem to be really settling into this you seem to be really settling into this new season of life I'd love to start new season of life I'd love to start new season of life I'd love to start here what are some of the key decisions here what are some of the key decisions here what are some of the key decisions that you've made along the way either that you've made along the way either that you've made along the way either intentionally or intentionally or intentionally or unintentionally that have you at least unintentionally that have you at least unintentionally that have you at least to this this point on a path to to this this point on a path to to this this point on a path to finishing

finishing finishing well I'm almost 70 and uh so I am coming well I'm almost 70 and uh so I am coming well I'm almost 70 and uh so I am coming up on a milestone birthday I don't know up on a milestone birthday I don't know up on a milestone birthday I don't know how many candles I can squeeze on a cake how many candles I can squeeze on a cake how many candles I can squeeze on a cake but 70 seems like it would require a a but 70 seems like it would require a a but 70 seems like it would require a a lot to blow out uh so yeah I feel like lot to blow out uh so yeah I feel like lot to blow out uh so yeah I feel like I'm uh inching into if I'm not already I'm uh inching into if I'm not already I'm uh inching into if I'm not already in my last chapter I'm I'm I'm very in my last chapter I'm I'm I'm very in my last chapter I'm I'm I'm very close to it I'm super excited about what close to it I'm super excited about what close to it I'm super excited about what lies ahead I love everything I do I I lies ahead I love everything I do I I lies ahead I love everything I do I I think the if I've made good decisions in think the if I've made good decisions in think the if I've made good decisions in the last few years I've narrowed my the last few years I've narrowed my the last few years I've narrowed my Ministry down to doing the most what I Ministry down to doing the most what I Ministry down to doing the most what I feel like I do the best uh which for me feel like I do the best uh which for me feel like I do the best uh which for me is message everything around message uh is message everything around message uh is message everything around message uh whether it be teaching a Bible class or whether it be teaching a Bible class or whether it be teaching a Bible class or writing a book or writing sermons I writing a book or writing sermons I writing a book or writing sermons I still preach 20 times a year at minimum still preach 20 times a year at minimum still preach 20 times a year at minimum at the church where I've been since at the church where I've been since at the church where I've been since 1988 uh I have a terrific successor and 1988 uh I have a terrific successor and 1988 uh I have a terrific successor and we'll talk about that here in just a we'll talk about that here in just a we'll talk about that here in just a minute how we've chosen to you know minute how we've chosen to you know minute how we've chosen to you know pursue that that partnership but by his pursue that that partnership but by his pursue that that partnership but by his invitation I still I still preach and um invitation I still I still preach and um invitation I still I still preach and um and but I don't I don't engage in any and but I don't I don't engage in any and but I don't I don't engage in any leadership decisions or leadership teams leadership decisions or leadership teams leadership decisions or leadership teams in fact as you and I are talking right in fact as you and I are talking right in fact as you and I are talking right now there's a a staff meeting uh now there's a a staff meeting uh now there's a a staff meeting uh everybody's there except me I never go everybody's there except me I never go everybody's there except me I never go to the staff meetings and I don't miss to the staff meetings and I don't miss to the staff meetings and I don't miss it one bit I was gonna say you're not it one bit I was gonna say you're not it one bit I was gonna say you're not frowning are frowning are frowning are you but I I don't want to I don't want you but I I don't want to I don't want you but I I don't want to I don't want to be the you know former head coach to be the you know former head coach to be the you know former head coach who's still on the sidelines and so

who's still on the sidelines and so who's still on the sidelines and so that's what I'm trying to to manage with that's what I'm trying to to manage with that's what I'm trying to to manage with Travis uh My Success we talk about he Travis uh My Success we talk about he Travis uh My Success we talk about he and I talk about it a lot but I think I and I talk about it a lot but I think I and I talk about it a lot but I think I really enjoy doing the most what I I do really enjoy doing the most what I I do really enjoy doing the most what I I do the best and and that's I think a a goal the best and and that's I think a a goal the best and and that's I think a a goal that we could all have in early in that we could all have in early in that we could all have in early in Ministry you know we do everything that Ministry you know we do everything that Ministry you know we do everything that has to be done you know we're happy to has to be done you know we're happy to has to be done you know we're happy to have a job and then as we move forward have a job and then as we move forward have a job and then as we move forward in Ministry we isolate those things we in Ministry we isolate those things we in Ministry we isolate those things we do well do well do well and I think that's a focus of of my life and I think that's a focus of of my life and I think that's a focus of of my life right now and then the second right now and then the second right now and then the second thing I'm not retired at all I say very thing I'm not retired at all I say very thing I'm not retired at all I say very busy but I did uh retire from this is busy but I did uh retire from this is busy but I did uh retire from this is going to come sound really funny early going to come sound really funny early going to come sound really funny early morning meetings and evening morning meetings and evening morning meetings and evening events that was per my wife's request we events that was per my wife's request we events that was per my wife's request we sat down about five years ago and I said sat down about five years ago and I said sat down about five years ago and I said honey uh you know now I'm moving into a honey uh you know now I'm moving into a honey uh you know now I'm moving into a new role at church and I don't want to new role at church and I don't want to new role at church and I don't want to retire and she said I don't want you to retire and she said I don't want you to retire and she said I don't want you to retire I don't want you looking at me retire I don't want you looking at me retire I don't want you looking at me all day long I saidwell what what would all day long I saidwell what what would all day long I saidwell what what would you like she said I'd love to have our you like she said I'd love to have our you like she said I'd love to have our mornings back and I'd love to just be mornings back and I'd love to just be mornings back and I'd love to just be with you in the evenings so I don't do with you in the evenings so I don't do with you in the evenings so I don't do any breakfast meetings believe it or not any breakfast meetings believe it or not any breakfast meetings believe it or not it's been forever since I met someone if it's been forever since I met someone if it's been forever since I met someone if they if they have to meet at breakfast I they if they have to meet at breakfast I they if they have to meet at breakfast I say I can't do it and I don't uh forever say I can't do it and I don't uh forever say I can't do it and I don't uh forever we hosted a home Bible study and I would we hosted a home Bible study and I would we hosted a home Bible study and I would go to Elders meetings in the evenings go to Elders meetings in the evenings go to Elders meetings in the evenings and that's wonderful That's essential and that's wonderful That's essential and that's wonderful That's essential that's beautiful but right now it helps that's beautiful but right now it helps that's beautiful but right now it helps us in this stage of life to um uh L

us in this stage of life to um uh L us in this stage of life to um uh L claim reclaim those two little Windows claim reclaim those two little Windows claim reclaim those two little Windows every day and it's just truly a delight every day and it's just truly a delight every day and it's just truly a delight truly a delight and I feel I feel more truly a delight and I feel I feel more truly a delight and I feel I feel more refreshed Carrie I I I don't I sleep refreshed Carrie I I I don't I sleep refreshed Carrie I I I don't I sleep well because I don't have to worry about well because I don't have to worry about well because I don't have to worry about waking up early and uh and I and I I waking up early and uh and I and I I waking up early and uh and I and I I slow down better and I sleep better at slow down better and I sleep better at slow down better and I sleep better at night so couple of practical things night so couple of practical things night so couple of practical things there that have that have really helped there that have that have really helped there that have that have really helped me was that hard for you 20 or 30 years me was that hard for you 20 or 30 years me was that hard for you 20 or 30 years ago ago ago to carve out the the boundary between to carve out the the boundary between to carve out the the boundary between family time and the demands of leading a family time and the demands of leading a family time and the demands of leading a a growing church was that always a a growing church was that always a a growing church was that always a struggle for you or was that always easy struggle for you or was that always easy struggle for you or was that always easy for you I had a big wakeup call uh I for you I had a big wakeup call uh I for you I had a big wakeup call uh I believe we may have discussed this in a believe we may have discussed this in a believe we may have discussed this in a maybe in our very first podcast but um maybe in our very first podcast but um maybe in our very first podcast but um after I came I moved back to the States after I came I moved back to the States after I came I moved back to the States from Brazil we we served in Rio de from Brazil we we served in Rio de from Brazil we we served in Rio de Janeiro from 83 to 888 yeah that's when Janeiro from 83 to 888 yeah that's when Janeiro from 83 to 888 yeah that's when I started writing I was unaware that I started writing I was unaware that I started writing I was unaware that with writing comes a certain level of with writing comes a certain level of with writing comes a certain level of notoriety and by the time I moved to San notoriety and by the time I moved to San notoriety and by the time I moved to San Antonio in 1988 uh I had I had three Antonio in 1988 uh I had I had three Antonio in 1988 uh I had I had three books out and they had done well and books out and they had done well and books out and they had done well and people were asking me to come and speak people were asking me to come and speak people were asking me to come and speak and I let my ego uh kick in there Carrie and I let my ego uh kick in there Carrie and I let my ego uh kick in there Carrie and I said yes to almost everything and and I said yes to almost everything and and I said yes to almost everything and in addition to uh pastoring a a healthy in addition to uh pastoring a a healthy in addition to uh pastoring a a healthy and and growing church I was gone a lot and and growing church I was gone a lot and and growing church I was gone a lot and I left my wife at home with three and I left my wife at home with three and I left my wife at home with three small kids uh at one time two of the small kids uh at one time two of the small kids uh at one time two of the three were in diapers and um I called three were in diapers and um I called three were in diapers and um I called her once flying back to San Antonio from

her once flying back to San Antonio from her once flying back to San Antonio from Dallas and I called her and uh I said Dallas and I called her and uh I said Dallas and I called her and uh I said honey I've got a great opportunity soand honey I've got a great opportunity soand honey I've got a great opportunity soand so has invited me to come and speak it I so has invited me to come and speak it I so has invited me to come and speak it I don't even remember what it was Carrie don't even remember what it was Carrie don't even remember what it was Carrie and she began to weep she just wept and she began to weep she just wept and she began to weep she just wept rather than be excited she just came rather than be excited she just came rather than be excited she just came undone and I knew I needed I was already undone and I knew I needed I was already undone and I knew I needed I was already going to get home as soon as possible going to get home as soon as possible going to get home as soon as possible but soon as I got home I walked in she but soon as I got home I walked in she but soon as I got home I walked in she had successfully gotten the kids to bed had successfully gotten the kids to bed had successfully gotten the kids to bed we're in 1990 now so it's been a long we're in 1990 now so it's been a long we're in 1990 now so it's been a long time but she'd gotten the kids to bed time but she'd gotten the kids to bed time but she'd gotten the kids to bed and she was on a curled up in a fetal and she was on a curled up in a fetal and she was on a curled up in a fetal position on the floor I didn't even know position on the floor I didn't even know position on the floor I didn't even know what depression meant much less that my what depression meant much less that my what depression meant much less that my wife was battling wife was battling wife was battling depression and so um by God's really depression and so um by God's really depression and so um by God's really great grace it was a wakeup call Carrie great grace it was a wakeup call Carrie great grace it was a wakeup call Carrie and I have a our our family physician and I have a our our family physician and I have a our our family physician saw us immediately the next morning saw us immediately the next morning saw us immediately the next morning referred us to a wonderful psychiatrist referred us to a wonderful psychiatrist referred us to a wonderful psychiatrist and and he treated deanan for quite some and and he treated deanan for quite some and and he treated deanan for quite some time and and with good counseling with time and and with good counseling with time and and with good counseling with uh medication and then most of all with uh medication and then most of all with uh medication and then most of all with her husband waking up that he wasn't her husband waking up that he wasn't her husband waking up that he wasn't doing his job uh she got better and she doing his job uh she got better and she doing his job uh she got better and she this is all part of her testimony now this is all part of her testimony now this is all part of her testimony now how how she talks about how the Lord how how she talks about how the Lord how how she talks about how the Lord blessed her she's very sympathetic to blessed her she's very sympathetic to blessed her she's very sympathetic to people who who battle depression and um people who who battle depression and um people who who battle depression and um so that's a very long answer to your so that's a very long answer to your so that's a very long answer to your very good question um I I learned early very good question um I I learned early very good question um I I learned early if I didn't balance things if I didn't balance things if I didn't balance things out uh that it would that I would pay a out uh that it would that I would pay a out uh that it would that I would pay a high price and so my response to that

high price and so my response to that high price and so my response to that was to meet with our elders and say was to meet with our elders and say was to meet with our elders and say could could I stream everything down to could could I stream everything down to could could I stream everything down to just two evenings a week two evenings a just two evenings a week two evenings a just two evenings a week two evenings a week and and back in those days we had week and and back in those days we had week and and back in those days we had Sunday evening Services forever ago Sunday evening Services forever ago Sunday evening Services forever ago right and then we had uh Wednesday right and then we had uh Wednesday right and then we had uh Wednesday evening leadership meetings and they evening leadership meetings and they evening leadership meetings and they were at peace in fact they applauded me were at peace in fact they applauded me were at peace in fact they applauded me they applauded me said yes sir anything they applauded me said yes sir anything they applauded me said yes sir anything you're doing in addition to that is too you're doing in addition to that is too you're doing in addition to that is too much and then I didn't travel for about much and then I didn't travel for about much and then I didn't travel for about three or four years I just said no to three or four years I just said no to three or four years I just said no to everything and to be quite honest I was everything and to be quite honest I was everything and to be quite honest I was getting ego Strokes from travel you know getting ego Strokes from travel you know getting ego Strokes from travel you know and so it wasn't a good and so it wasn't a good and so it wasn't a good motivation so that was good for me to motivation so that was good for me to motivation so that was good for me to kind of disengage and and realize that kind of disengage and and realize that kind of disengage and and realize that um since those days I feel like we've um since those days I feel like we've um since those days I feel like we've done I feel like we've done well if my done I feel like we've done well if my done I feel like we've done well if my wife were sitting right here with me she wife were sitting right here with me she wife were sitting right here with me she might bow me in their ribs uhhuh uhhuh might bow me in their ribs uhhuh uhhuh might bow me in their ribs uhhuh uhhuh no it's funny you know I think for me no it's funny you know I think for me no it's funny you know I think for me too Max and I you know I wasn't writing too Max and I you know I wasn't writing too Max and I you know I wasn't writing books when I was in my 30s but I was out books when I was in my 30s but I was out books when I was in my 30s but I was out at three churches I was out four or five at three churches I was out four or five at three churches I was out four or five nights a week and my kids were young and nights a week and my kids were young and nights a week and my kids were young and I kind of woke up I kind of woke up I kind of woke up maybe oh 20 years ago so my kids were in maybe oh 20 years ago so my kids were in maybe oh 20 years ago so my kids were in their middle school years and I would do their middle school years and I would do their middle school years and I would do anything to get those Elementary and anything to get those Elementary and anything to get those Elementary and preschool years back where I was a more preschool years back where I was a more preschool years back where I was a more present father and you know they say Dad present father and you know they say Dad present father and you know they say Dad it wasn't that bad but I'm like you know it wasn't that bad but I'm like you know it wasn't that bad but I'm like you know now I'm home every night but my kids are now I'm home every night but my kids are now I'm home every night but my kids are 32 and 28 so doesn't really matter but

32 and 28 so doesn't really matter but 32 and 28 so doesn't really matter but if if we could crack that code earlier if if we could crack that code earlier if if we could crack that code earlier as Leaders I'm so glad you told that as Leaders I'm so glad you told that as Leaders I'm so glad you told that story what were some other decisions story what were some other decisions story what were some other decisions that you made along the way that set you that you made along the way that set you that you made along the way that set you up for this to be a season in your life up for this to be a season in your life up for this to be a season in your life that you're not recovering from some that you're not recovering from some that you're not recovering from some catastrophic failure or Miserable as you catastrophic failure or Miserable as you catastrophic failure or Miserable as you approach your 70th birthday which as you approach your 70th birthday which as you approach your 70th birthday which as you know that happens a little too much you know that happens a little too much you know that happens a little too much you spend these later years recovering from spend these later years recovering from spend these later years recovering from some catastrophic mistake or you're just some catastrophic mistake or you're just some catastrophic mistake or you're just a bitter man what what are some key a bitter man what what are some key a bitter man what what are some key other points you see along the way that other points you see along the way that other points you see along the way that it's like either intentionally or it's like either intentionally or it's like either intentionally or unintentionally it's like oh that was a unintentionally it's like oh that was a unintentionally it's like oh that was a good good good decision you that that word bitter decision you that that word bitter decision you that that word bitter popped out when you said that because I popped out when you said that because I popped out when you said that because I do have some friends who after many do have some friends who after many do have some friends who after many years many decades in Ministry are a bit years many decades in Ministry are a bit years many decades in Ministry are a bit bitter bitter toward the Church uh bitter bitter toward the Church uh bitter bitter toward the Church uh bitter toward bitter toward bitter toward evangelicalism bitter toward yeah maybe evangelicalism bitter toward yeah maybe evangelicalism bitter toward yeah maybe maybe we'll come back to that um I I maybe we'll come back to that um I I maybe we'll come back to that um I I feel like uh I receiv received good feel like uh I receiv received good feel like uh I receiv received good warnings early on to uh avoid um any warnings early on to uh avoid um any warnings early on to uh avoid um any inappropriate inappropriate inappropriate behavior with a person of the opposite behavior with a person of the opposite behavior with a person of the opposite sex um a friend really encourag sex um a friend really encourag sex um a friend really encourag encouraged me to never leave never be in encouraged me to never leave never be in encouraged me to never leave never be in an office uh with a woman uh without the an office uh with a woman uh without the an office uh with a woman uh without the door open and so I'd never have I door open and so I'd never have I door open and so I'd never have I thought that was that was good counil I thought that was that was good counil I thought that was that was good counil I I was encouraged to not travel uh by

I was encouraged to not travel uh by I was encouraged to not travel uh by myself I was actually at a conference myself I was actually at a conference myself I was actually at a conference just a few months ago and uh and several just a few months ago and uh and several just a few months ago and uh and several uh females wonderful teachers were being uh females wonderful teachers were being uh females wonderful teachers were being uh interviewed and one of them was asked uh interviewed and one of them was asked uh interviewed and one of them was asked what do you think about the Billy Graham what do you think about the Billy Graham what do you think about the Billy Graham rule yeah they didn't like it rule yeah they didn't like it rule yeah they didn't like it they didn't like it they felt it was they didn't like it they felt it was they didn't like it they felt it was offensive to women I was not on the offensive to women I was not on the offensive to women I was not on the council I mean I was not on the council I mean I was not on the council I mean I was not on the panel I was really struggling in my mind panel I was really struggling in my mind panel I was really struggling in my mind though I because my thinking was I I though I because my thinking was I I though I because my thinking was I I basically did the Billy Graham rule that basically did the Billy Graham rule that basically did the Billy Graham rule that is to say I I didn't meet with females is to say I I didn't meet with females is to say I I didn't meet with females alone and uh I didn't travel ever travel alone and uh I didn't travel ever travel alone and uh I didn't travel ever travel with females alone and I did it just with females alone and I did it just with females alone and I did it just because my wife felt more comfortable because my wife felt more comfortable because my wife felt more comfortable with that so uh for forgive me if with that so uh for forgive me if with that so uh for forgive me if anybody thinks that that comes across as anybody thinks that that comes across as anybody thinks that that comes across as u in any way feeling Superior for me u in any way feeling Superior for me u in any way feeling Superior for me it's a feeling of insecurity I don't it's a feeling of insecurity I don't it's a feeling of insecurity I don't trust myself I don't trust myself and trust myself I don't trust myself and trust myself I don't trust myself and and so I had to I took that uh posture and so I had to I took that uh posture and so I had to I took that uh posture Carrie do do you have any thoughts or Carrie do do you have any thoughts or Carrie do do you have any thoughts or reflection yeah it's it's been a reflection yeah it's it's been a reflection yeah it's it's been a semi-regular topic on this podcast semi-regular topic on this podcast semi-regular topic on this podcast particularly when I interview female particularly when I interview female particularly when I interview female leaders younger female leaders and I see leaders younger female leaders and I see leaders younger female leaders and I see it both ways I do too because I think if it both ways I do too because I think if it both ways I do too because I think if we end up in a place where we are alone we end up in a place where we are alone we end up in a place where we are alone regularly or we become emotionally regularly or we become emotionally regularly or we become emotionally involved with someone that we might have involved with someone that we might have involved with someone that we might have feelings for or those feelings develop I feelings for or those feelings develop I feelings for or those feelings develop I think that's you know that's not good think that's you know that's not good think that's you know that's not good it's not good for anybody on the other

it's not good for anybody on the other it's not good for anybody on the other hand I also understand that if the only hand I also understand that if the only hand I also understand that if the only thing I do is I go for breakfast with thing I do is I go for breakfast with thing I do is I go for breakfast with all the guys and none of the women on my all the guys and none of the women on my all the guys and none of the women on my team then that's if you want to call it team then that's if you want to call it team then that's if you want to call it discriminatory I think you can make an discriminatory I think you can make an discriminatory I think you can make an argument it certainly is preferential argument it certainly is preferential argument it certainly is preferential treatment and what it means is that the treatment and what it means is that the treatment and what it means is that the women don't have an equal chance and so women don't have an equal chance and so women don't have an equal chance and so that was the point they made at that on that was the point they made at that on that was the point they made at that on that panel which I thought was a that panel which I thought was a that panel which I thought was a terrific thought I think that's a terrific thought I think that's a terrific thought I think that's a perfect thought I don't think i' looked perfect thought I don't think i' looked perfect thought I don't think i' looked at it from that point of view so I at it from that point of view so I at it from that point of view so I didn't either I was fortunate this was didn't either I was fortunate this was didn't either I was fortunate this was uh oh gosh this is too late but probably uh oh gosh this is too late but probably uh oh gosh this is too late but probably like 13 14 15 years ago had an like 13 14 15 years ago had an like 13 14 15 years ago had an incredibly amazing director of incredibly amazing director of incredibly amazing director of operations basically my XP in all but operations basically my XP in all but operations basically my XP in all but name and she was great and she lovingly name and she was great and she lovingly name and she was great and she lovingly pulled me aside one day just said you pulled me aside one day just said you pulled me aside one day just said you know you're going for breakfast with know you're going for breakfast with know you're going for breakfast with these other people but not with me um these other people but not with me um these other people but not with me um how come how come you're not developing how come how come you're not developing how come how come you're not developing me she didn't call it discriminator and me she didn't call it discriminator and me she didn't call it discriminator and I thought you know she has a point she I thought you know she has a point she I thought you know she has a point she worked at Pepsi before she worked with worked at Pepsi before she worked with worked at Pepsi before she worked with us at the church and you know I just us at the church and you know I just us at the church and you know I just hired her as a lay person uh to come on hired her as a lay person uh to come on hired her as a lay person uh to come on the staff and she was she was amazing the staff and she was she was amazing the staff and she was she was amazing and I thought she's like at Pepsi this and I thought she's like at Pepsi this and I thought she's like at Pepsi this happens all the time and so I think in happens all the time and so I think in happens all the time and so I think in Ministry it's that I I'm much more Ministry it's that I I'm much more Ministry it's that I I'm much more sensitive to creating an equal playing sensitive to creating an equal playing sensitive to creating an equal playing field and level playing field and field and level playing field and field and level playing field and everybody gets the same exposure but everybody gets the same exposure but everybody gets the same exposure but also um being mindful of the Dynamics also um being mindful of the Dynamics also um being mindful of the Dynamics that can develop as well so I feel like that can develop as well so I feel like that can develop as well so I feel like you know as Andy Stanley says it's a you know as Andy Stanley says it's a you know as Andy Stanley says it's a tension to be managed not a problem to tension to be managed not a problem to tension to be managed not a problem to be solved good word and I think the

be solved good word and I think the be solved good word and I think the awareness of it is helpful on the other awareness of it is helpful on the other awareness of it is helpful on the other hand you keep thinking all the moral hand you keep thinking all the moral hand you keep thinking all the moral failures are over and then you realize failures are over and then you realize failures are over and then you realize oh there's another one there's another oh there's another one there's another oh there's another one there's another one there's another one so uh I don't one there's another one so uh I don't one there's another one so uh I don't know whether it's something endemic to know whether it's something endemic to know whether it's something endemic to Ministry whether it's just makes the Ministry whether it's just makes the Ministry whether it's just makes the news when it happens in Ministry and it news when it happens in Ministry and it news when it happens in Ministry and it happens in business and Leadership every happens in business and Leadership every happens in business and Leadership every day I don't know what that is I don't day I don't know what that is I don't day I don't know what that is I don't have any stats on that but I don't know have any stats on that but I don't know have any stats on that but I don't know Max that's my take any other further Max that's my take any other further Max that's my take any other further thoughts on that just that lose when you thoughts on that just that lose when you thoughts on that just that lose when you lose your integrity you've lost lose your integrity you've lost lose your integrity you've lost everything in Ministry so it is worth everything in Ministry so it is worth everything in Ministry so it is worth fighting to protect maybe I fighting to protect maybe I fighting to protect maybe I overreacted and um I'm I'm not in that overreacted and um I'm I'm not in that overreacted and um I'm I'm not in that situation anymore since I'm no no longer situation anymore since I'm no no longer situation anymore since I'm no no longer senior pastor but I do I do think uh senior pastor but I do I do think uh senior pastor but I do I do think uh it's once you've lost Integrity uh you it's once you've lost Integrity uh you it's once you've lost Integrity uh you know you can lose a lot in Ministry but know you can lose a lot in Ministry but know you can lose a lot in Ministry but when Integrity is gone it's going to be when Integrity is gone it's going to be when Integrity is gone it's going to be really tough you know really tough to to really tough you know really tough to to really tough you know really tough to to regain that trust with your church and regain that trust with your church and regain that trust with your church and um so there might be a difference um so there might be a difference um so there might be a difference between working in the corporate world between working in the corporate world between working in the corporate world and working in in Ministry I love that and working in in Ministry I love that and working in in Ministry I love that phrase so it's attention to be managed phrase so it's attention to be managed phrase so it's attention to be managed uh were I to do it again I think I would uh were I to do it again I think I would uh were I to do it again I think I would try to have some upfront conversations try to have some upfront conversations try to have some upfront conversations with the female leaders and together we with the female leaders and together we with the female leaders and together we would come up with a solution you know I would come up with a solution you know I would come up with a solution you know I might come at it from the angle here's might come at it from the angle here's might come at it from the angle here's my concern but help let you and I come my concern but help let you and I come my concern but help let you and I come up with a solution rather than me just up with a solution rather than me just up with a solution rather than me just announce like I did you know that I my

announce like I did you know that I my announce like I did you know that I my policy so and to be fair I mean one of policy so and to be fair I mean one of policy so and to be fair I mean one of the things we're very good at these days the things we're very good at these days the things we're very good at these days is judging past decades in Centuries is judging past decades in Centuries is judging past decades in Centuries with current moral understandings right with current moral understandings right with current moral understandings right we're very good at that and uh I think we're very good at that and uh I think we're very good at that and uh I think we have a lot to learn we made a lot of we have a lot to learn we made a lot of we have a lot to learn we made a lot of mistakes but it was another era as well mistakes but it was another era as well mistakes but it was another era as well where that was pretty much the rule and where that was pretty much the rule and where that was pretty much the rule and the people who were breaking the rule the people who were breaking the rule the people who were breaking the rule often got into trouble and there weren't often got into trouble and there weren't often got into trouble and there weren't as many women in leadership I think as many women in leadership I think as many women in leadership I think there's a lot more women in leadership I there's a lot more women in leadership I there's a lot more women in leadership I think we should have absolutely equal think we should have absolutely equal think we should have absolutely equal access equal opportunities all of that access equal opportunities all of that access equal opportunities all of that um so yeah it's a great it's a great um so yeah it's a great it's a great um so yeah it's a great it's a great conversation so um you might have one or conversation so um you might have one or conversation so um you might have one or two other points but if not i' love for two other points but if not i' love for two other points but if not i' love for you to look back no names but when you you to look back no names but when you you to look back no names but when you saw other colleagues who maybe didn't saw other colleagues who maybe didn't saw other colleagues who maybe didn't finish as well perhaps they got bitter finish as well perhaps they got bitter finish as well perhaps they got bitter perhaps they did have a moral failure perhaps they did have a moral failure perhaps they did have a moral failure perhaps they it doesn't always have to perhaps they it doesn't always have to perhaps they it doesn't always have to be sexual it could be it's just be sexual it could be it's just be sexual it could be it's just Integrity right it's like they were Integrity right it's like they were Integrity right it's like they were terrible people to be around and they terrible people to be around and they terrible people to be around and they eventually lost their Ministry or they eventually lost their Ministry or they eventually lost their Ministry or they stole things that didn't belong to them stole things that didn't belong to them stole things that didn't belong to them or uh you know had a double life or or uh you know had a double life or or uh you know had a double life or something like that I don't know um what something like that I don't know um what something like that I don't know um what were some yellow or red flags looking were some yellow or red flags looking were some yellow or red flags looking back on your seven decades of back on your seven decades of back on your seven decades of life and Leadership what what were some life and Leadership what what were some life and Leadership what what were some yellow flags you would see in other yellow flags you would see in other yellow flags you would see in other colleagues that alerted you to the colleagues that alerted you to the colleagues that alerted you to the possibility that their integrity was at possibility that their integrity was at possibility that their integrity was at stake stake stake isolation isolation isolation from any isolation isolation isolation from any isolation isolation isolation from any accountability group isolation from the

accountability group isolation from the accountability group isolation from the staff uh isolation from uh solving the staff uh isolation from uh solving the staff uh isolation from uh solving the day-to-day challenges of the church I day-to-day challenges of the church I day-to-day challenges of the church I know that uh we often somewhat reward know that uh we often somewhat reward know that uh we often somewhat reward oursel by bringing somebody on who truly oursel by bringing somebody on who truly oursel by bringing somebody on who truly manages the day-to-day operations we manages the day-to-day operations we manages the day-to-day operations we often do that as senior pastors and I do often do that as senior pastors and I do often do that as senior pastors and I do think that's important because for think that's important because for think that's important because for management of energy however there's management of energy however there's management of energy however there's something wonderful about uh staying something wonderful about uh staying something wonderful about uh staying engaged with the church and with your engaged with the church and with your engaged with the church and with your team so that they see you often the the team so that they see you often the the team so that they see you often the the good friends that I had who who um have good friends that I had who who um have good friends that I had who who um have passed through tough times have uh passed through tough times have uh passed through tough times have uh expressed remorse that they allowed expressed remorse that they allowed expressed remorse that they allowed themselves to become themselves to become themselves to become insulated uh from their team when they insulated uh from their team when they insulated uh from their team when they began either as a church plant or as a began either as a church plant or as a began either as a church plant or as a younger church and they themselves of younger church and they themselves of younger church and they themselves of course younger everybody was in course younger everybody was in course younger everybody was in everything you know yeah people were in everything you know yeah people were in everything you know yeah people were in and out of their office all the time and out of their office all the time and out of their office all the time sharing ideas talking in the hallway and sharing ideas talking in the hallway and sharing ideas talking in the hallway and the um the possibility of insulation the um the possibility of insulation the um the possibility of insulation increases as the church grows and and increases as the church grows and and increases as the church grows and and then also you get a little tired you then also you get a little tired you then also you get a little tired you know they should have figured that out know they should have figured that out know they should have figured that out by now by now by now attitude um and yet once that attitude um and yet once that attitude um and yet once that accountability or insulation accountability or insulation accountability or insulation accountability's gone insulation sets in accountability's gone insulation sets in accountability's gone insulation sets in then you're you're can you're more then you're you're can you're more then you're you're can you're more vulnerable to uh to challenging vulnerable to uh to challenging vulnerable to uh to challenging situations so that's the first word that situations so that's the first word that situations so that's the first word that pops in my mind Cherry yeah insulation

pops in my mind Cherry yeah insulation pops in my mind Cherry yeah insulation isolation that's isolation that's isolation that's definitely anything that you've definitely anything that you've definitely anything that you've experienced or seen oh yeah yeah and you experienced or seen oh yeah yeah and you experienced or seen oh yeah yeah and you raise attention too because I mean the raise attention too because I mean the raise attention too because I mean the bigger your organization gets the more bigger your organization gets the more bigger your organization gets the more naturally isolated you get and the least naturally isolated you get and the least naturally isolated you get and the least likely people are to tell you the truth likely people are to tell you the truth likely people are to tell you the truth were there other flags other other flags were there other flags other other flags were there other flags other other flags that you would see among colleagues over that you would see among colleagues over that you would see among colleagues over the years that kind of made you go ooh the years that kind of made you go ooh the years that kind of made you go ooh and then sure enough it it didn't go and then sure enough it it didn't go and then sure enough it it didn't go particularly well I if I can Comm at particularly well I if I can Comm at particularly well I if I can Comm at that from just a slightly different that from just a slightly different that from just a slightly different angle what I have seen in Heroes of mine angle what I have seen in Heroes of mine angle what I have seen in Heroes of mine who have run the race well yeah and I'm who have run the race well yeah and I'm who have run the race well yeah and I'm and I'm happy to throw names out here and I'm happy to throw names out here and I'm happy to throw names out here because these are great men because these are great men because these are great men Stanley uh Charles swindall who's still Stanley uh Charles swindall who's still Stanley uh Charles swindall who's still running the race well uh David running the race well uh David running the race well uh David Jeremiah uh Bob Russell who preached Jeremiah uh Bob Russell who preached Jeremiah uh Bob Russell who preached many years in Louisville at South many years in Louisville at South many years in Louisville at South Southeast Christian what I've noticed Southeast Christian what I've noticed Southeast Christian what I've noticed about those men who with whom I for whom about those men who with whom I for whom about those men who with whom I for whom I have immense respect is that they were I have immense respect is that they were I have immense respect is that they were um they were staying fresh in their um they were staying fresh in their um they were staying fresh in their study of God's word they were willing to study of God's word they were willing to study of God's word they were willing to tackle topics and you could sense it you tackle topics and you could sense it you tackle topics and you could sense it you could sense the enthusias I ASM and the could sense the enthusias I ASM and the could sense the enthusias I ASM and the energy I just was on the phone with energy I just was on the phone with energy I just was on the phone with David like two days ago and he called me David like two days ago and he called me David like two days ago and he called me like a kid in a candy store how old is like a kid in a candy store how old is like a kid in a candy store how old is David now David Jeremiah I think he's in David now David Jeremiah I think he's in David now David Jeremiah I think he's in his early 80s and wow um so faithful all his early 80s and wow um so faithful all his early 80s and wow um so faithful all these years and he said oh Max Max I these years and he said oh Max Max I these years and he said oh Max Max I just read something in a book and and

just read something in a book and and just read something in a book and and you know I'd always thought that I you know I'd always thought that I you know I'd always thought that I couldn't be happy and I had to be joyful couldn't be happy and I had to be joyful couldn't be happy and I had to be joyful and there's a big difference between joy and there's a big difference between joy and there's a big difference between joy and happiness you got to read this book and happiness you got to read this book and happiness you got to read this book and you you know I I couldn't quite even and you you know I I couldn't quite even and you you know I I couldn't quite even discern the point to be honest but he discern the point to be honest but he discern the point to be honest but he was so excited he said can you believe was so excited he said can you believe was so excited he said can you believe that I'm still learning God's word and that I'm still learning God's word and that I'm still learning God's word and still learning about the Lord and he was still learning about the Lord and he was still learning about the Lord and he was even emotional and it was just a even emotional and it was just a even emotional and it was just a spontaneous call so that that that I've spontaneous call so that that that I've spontaneous call so that that that I've seen in uh men and women who Finish Well seen in uh men and women who Finish Well seen in uh men and women who Finish Well they they they they they're digging in they they they they they're digging in they they they they they're digging in still with the same energy you know as a still with the same energy you know as a still with the same energy you know as a as a graduate student they're they're as a graduate student they're they're as a graduate student they're they're still learning and excited about what still learning and excited about what still learning and excited about what they're learning now I don't know if I they're learning now I don't know if I they're learning now I don't know if I could say that the colleagues I know uh could say that the colleagues I know uh could say that the colleagues I know uh did not do that because I I don't know did not do that because I I don't know did not do that because I I don't know if I was engaged in following their if I was engaged in following their if I was engaged in following their teaching or studying that personally but teaching or studying that personally but teaching or studying that personally but if I could answer it from a positive if I could answer it from a positive if I could answer it from a positive standpoint I want to be like that you standpoint I want to be like that you standpoint I want to be like that you know I wanna I wanna yeah I want to be know I wanna I wanna yeah I want to be know I wanna I wanna yeah I want to be learning up until the very end you know learning up until the very end you know learning up until the very end you know I don't I don't quite get some of the I don't I don't quite get some of the I don't I don't quite get some of the minor profits I need to put that on my minor profits I need to put that on my minor profits I need to put that on my on my to-do list you know it's exciting on my to-do list you know it's exciting on my to-do list you know it's exciting to learn and and it is and so I I I I'd to learn and and it is and so I I I I'd to learn and and it is and so I I I I'd like to add that to the attributes of like to add that to the attributes of like to add that to the attributes of wom who finished strong I don't think wom who finished strong I don't think wom who finished strong I don't think I'm telling Tales out of school I I'm telling Tales out of school I I'm telling Tales out of school I remember Andy telling me once that his remember Andy telling me once that his remember Andy telling me once that his dad had just read this massive book that dad had just read this massive book that dad had just read this massive book that was like 600 Pages it had just come out was like 600 Pages it had just come out was like 600 Pages it had just come out and he says and he's got like 12 pages and he says and he's got like 12 pages and he says and he's got like 12 pages of notes and he goes now I got to go of notes and he goes now I got to go of notes and he goes now I got to go discuss it with him and his dad was discuss it with him and his dad was discuss it with him and his dad was already in his 80s right so I mean

already in his 80s right so I mean already in his 80s right so I mean that's fantastic it really is wonderful that's fantastic it really is wonderful that's fantastic it really is wonderful that's wonderful it keeps the heart soft that's wonderful it keeps the heart soft that's wonderful it keeps the heart soft right it keeps our uh attitude toward right it keeps our uh attitude toward right it keeps our uh attitude toward the lord gracious and humble Keeps Us the lord gracious and humble Keeps Us the lord gracious and humble Keeps Us humble and um we talked the word bitter humble and um we talked the word bitter humble and um we talked the word bitter uh yeah I I don't think you can be uh yeah I I don't think you can be uh yeah I I don't think you can be bitter if you're engaged with the Holy bitter if you're engaged with the Holy bitter if you're engaged with the Holy Spirit leading you into new truths I Spirit leading you into new truths I Spirit leading you into new truths I don't think you can uh you bitterness don't think you can uh you bitterness don't think you can uh you bitterness might bitterness seems to happen when might bitterness seems to happen when might bitterness seems to happen when you feel threatened or you feel uh like you feel threatened or you feel uh like you feel threatened or you feel uh like the good old days have passed me by or I the good old days have passed me by or I the good old days have passed me by or I don't really have anything else to offer don't really have anything else to offer don't really have anything else to offer and you kind of get and you kind of get and you kind of get sour um kogan is that the word I'm sour um kogan is that the word I'm sour um kogan is that the word I'm trying to remember how to trying to remember how to trying to remember how to pronounce um but when you think about pronounce um but when you think about pronounce um but when you think about the guys who we've just listed they're the guys who we've just listed they're the guys who we've just listed they're not sour they weren't sour Dr Stanley not sour they weren't sour Dr Stanley not sour they weren't sour Dr Stanley went into heaven with his eyes wide open went into heaven with his eyes wide open went into heaven with his eyes wide open I'm sure a smile on his face and I I'm sure a smile on his face and I I'm sure a smile on his face and I picked that up when I listened to Dr picked that up when I listened to Dr picked that up when I listened to Dr swindall and his preaching a man whom I swindall and his preaching a man whom I swindall and his preaching a man whom I just see I hear the energy in his voice just see I hear the energy in his voice just see I hear the energy in his voice even as his body gets frail as it even as his body gets frail as it even as his body gets frail as it getting older and he still got that getting older and he still got that getting older and he still got that punch you know when he preaches still punch you know when he preaches still punch you know when he preaches still loves the church and um I really I loves the church and um I really I loves the church and um I really I really long uh to be that way you know really long uh to be that way you know really long uh to be that way you know as a as I move as a as I move as a as I move in so we have talked about this in past in so we have talked about this in past in so we have talked about this in past episodes but I'd love a little update episodes but I'd love a little update episodes but I'd love a little update because it's been a few years now what because it's been a few years now what because it's been a few years now what was the most difficult aspect for you of

was the most difficult aspect for you of was the most difficult aspect for you of stepping out of the lead Pastor role stepping out of the lead Pastor role stepping out of the lead Pastor role there's a lot of the job you don't miss there's a lot of the job you don't miss there's a lot of the job you don't miss and I get that but what was the hardest and I get that but what was the hardest and I get that but what was the hardest part h part h part h I think I think I think um knowing when to speak up and when to um knowing when to speak up and when to um knowing when to speak up and when to be quiet with my successor Travis eids be quiet with my successor Travis eids be quiet with my successor Travis eids uh early on uh Travis uh assumed the uh early on uh Travis uh assumed the uh early on uh Travis uh assumed the role and he was the perfect selection in role and he was the perfect selection in role and he was the perfect selection in he's he's doing awesome and and and he's he's doing awesome and and and he's he's doing awesome and and and early on though he did not have a lot of early on though he did not have a lot of early on though he did not have a lot of preaching experience he he came to us preaching experience he he came to us preaching experience he he came to us originally as a worship Pastor uh we originally as a worship Pastor uh we originally as a worship Pastor uh we sell great leadership potential in him sell great leadership potential in him sell great leadership potential in him though and through a series of you know though and through a series of you know though and through a series of you know obviously interviews and conversations obviously interviews and conversations obviously interviews and conversations he he we issued the call and he accepted he he we issued the call and he accepted he he we issued the call and he accepted and um and I didn't know when to offer and um and I didn't know when to offer and um and I didn't know when to offer advice and when not to now gratefully advice and when not to now gratefully advice and when not to now gratefully Travis is an open book with a very Travis is an open book with a very Travis is an open book with a very teachable heart and so every time we teachable heart and so every time we teachable heart and so every time we would meet I would say you've got to would meet I would say you've got to would meet I would say you've got to tell me when you want me to speak up and tell me when you want me to speak up and tell me when you want me to speak up and when I speak up too much you've got to when I speak up too much you've got to when I speak up too much you've got to tell me when you need me to be quiet um tell me when you need me to be quiet um tell me when you need me to be quiet um I realize that succession is a a tricky I realize that succession is a a tricky I realize that succession is a a tricky horse to ride and and I know why uh some horse to ride and and I know why uh some horse to ride and and I know why uh some of my friends have when they retired of my friends have when they retired of my friends have when they retired really retired and they they just moved really retired and they they just moved really retired and they they just moved on to a different church or they said to on to a different church or they said to on to a different church or they said to the successor I won't you won't see me the successor I won't you won't see me the successor I won't you won't see me here for a year I just want to get out

here for a year I just want to get out here for a year I just want to get out of your way I get that and I do think of your way I get that and I do think of your way I get that and I do think had Travis asked me to do that uh my had Travis asked me to do that uh my had Travis asked me to do that uh my wife would have not liked it but we wife would have not liked it but we wife would have not liked it but we would have done it uh and uh but but to would have done it uh and uh but but to would have done it uh and uh but but to honor his request but I do think that's honor his request but I do think that's honor his request but I do think that's the that's the delicate uh uh balance uh the that's the delicate uh uh balance uh the that's the delicate uh uh balance uh I'm very very very happy that the church I'm very very very happy that the church I'm very very very happy that the church sees this succession in a successful sees this succession in a successful sees this succession in a successful fashion they see they have absolute fashion they see they have absolute fashion they see they have absolute confidence in Travis uh that he's he's confidence in Travis uh that he's he's confidence in Travis uh that he's he's got us into debt free attendance is up got us into debt free attendance is up got us into debt free attendance is up uh we're seeing many salvations and so uh we're seeing many salvations and so uh we're seeing many salvations and so it's really a happy season right now and it's really a happy season right now and it's really a happy season right now and so if I were to Keel over tomorrow there so if I were to Keel over tomorrow there so if I were to Keel over tomorrow there might be one or two people sad but the might be one or two people sad but the might be one or two people sad but the church is in good hands and so that's church is in good hands and so that's church is in good hands and so that's that's the transition that has to be that's the transition that has to be that's the transition that has to be worked out in conversation and the worked out in conversation and the worked out in conversation and the person who really needs to weigh in the person who really needs to weigh in the person who really needs to weigh in the most in that is the uh not the person most in that is the uh not the person most in that is the uh not the person retiring or leaving but the one assuming retiring or leaving but the one assuming retiring or leaving but the one assuming the mantle and they need to be quite the mantle and they need to be quite the mantle and they need to be quite Frank and say I would work best in X Frank and say I would work best in X Frank and say I would work best in X circumstance and then the one who is circumstance and then the one who is circumstance and then the one who is leaving needs to honor that and um and leaving needs to honor that and um and leaving needs to honor that and um and move into whatever role that would move into whatever role that would move into whatever role that would require it sounds like you really put require it sounds like you really put require it sounds like you really put yourself under Travis's Authority that yourself under Travis's Authority that yourself under Travis's Authority that he's your pastor yeah I say that to the he's your pastor yeah I say that to the he's your pastor yeah I say that to the church often I say I think I I'll begin church often I say I think I I'll begin church often I say I think I I'll begin a sermon because I do still preach 20 a sermon because I do still preach 20 a sermon because I do still preach 20 times a year and I'll say thank you times a year and I'll say thank you times a year and I'll say thank you Pastor Travis for blessing my decision Pastor Travis for blessing my decision Pastor Travis for blessing my decision to preach on marriage in the next few

to preach on marriage in the next few to preach on marriage in the next few weeks you just just little phrases like weeks you just just little phrases like weeks you just just little phrases like that that that um that help the church that that that um that help the church that that that um that help the church here that I am at peace with a A reduced here that I am at peace with a A reduced here that I am at peace with a A reduced role in the church because they'll role in the church because they'll role in the church because they'll follow my queue right I've been here follow my queue right I've been here follow my queue right I've been here since 1988 and so they'll fall in my since 1988 and so they'll fall in my since 1988 and so they'll fall in my queue and if and if I resist that then queue and if and if I resist that then queue and if and if I resist that then they'll resist him so uh I I think they'll resist him so uh I I think they'll resist him so uh I I think that's an important part on my step on that's an important part on my step on that's an important part on my step on my part what was the easiest part of my part what was the easiest part of my part what was the easiest part of giving up the lead Pastor role here giving up the lead Pastor role here giving up the lead Pastor role here comes the SM smiling I'm comes the SM smiling I'm comes the SM smiling I'm smiling there there were two or three smiling there there were two or three smiling there there were two or three things about being a lead pastor that things about being a lead pastor that things about being a lead pastor that were always challenging to me and um I were always challenging to me and um I were always challenging to me and um I don't think I felt really great at don't think I felt really great at don't think I felt really great at creating a strategy to follow the creating a strategy to follow the creating a strategy to follow the vision uh even as I mentioned there's a vision uh even as I mentioned there's a vision uh even as I mentioned there's a staff meeting going on right now and staff meeting going on right now and staff meeting going on right now and your friend in mine Greg Lian uh a a a your friend in mine Greg Lian uh a a a your friend in mine Greg Lian uh a a a wonderful friend uh is is uh has been we wonderful friend uh is is uh has been we wonderful friend uh is is uh has been we brought him on or Travis has brought him brought him on or Travis has brought him brought him on or Travis has brought him on to uh Council and and provide support on to uh Council and and provide support on to uh Council and and provide support on how we can really tighten up our on how we can really tighten up our on how we can really tighten up our strategy uh always struggled with that I strategy uh always struggled with that I strategy uh always struggled with that I think Travis does a great job I think think Travis does a great job I think think Travis does a great job I think Greg Lian is a great resource I think Greg Lian is a great resource I think Greg Lian is a great resource I think there you are brilliant in that area I there you are brilliant in that area I there you are brilliant in that area I think there are many leadership books think there are many leadership books think there are many leadership books out there and I used to not devour I out there and I used to not devour I out there and I used to not devour I used to really read a lot of leadership used to really read a lot of leadership used to really read a lot of leadership books and I would love and I attended books and I would love and I attended books and I would love and I attended leadership conferences because I I

leadership conferences because I I leadership conferences because I I battled trying to do it right and so it battled trying to do it right and so it battled trying to do it right and so it it was a it was a be minest performance it was a it was a be minest performance it was a it was a be minest performance on my part I was happy to surrender that on my part I was happy to surrender that on my part I was happy to surrender that and uh I think it's very very and uh I think it's very very and uh I think it's very very important so you've what book is this important so you've what book is this important so you've what book is this for you what number I it's it's you know for you what number I it's it's you know for you what number I it's it's you know you're exceeding my ability to count you're exceeding my ability to count you're exceeding my ability to count your well you know Carrie if you just do your well you know Carrie if you just do your well you know Carrie if you just do quantity and not quality it's really quantity and not quality it's really quantity and not quality it's really easy to write a bunch of easy to write a bunch of easy to write a bunch of books my first book came out when my books my first book came out when my books my first book came out when my daughter my CH youngest daughter was uh daughter my CH youngest daughter was uh daughter my CH youngest daughter was uh born and she's turning 40 this summer born and she's turning 40 this summer born and she's turning 40 this summer and so I've done uh most years one a and so I've done uh most years one a and so I've done uh most years one a year but there's enough in there I've year but there's enough in there I've year but there's enough in there I've done two a year I think the numbers done two a year I think the numbers done two a year I think the numbers right about 48 uh 47 or 48 that's right about 48 uh 47 or 48 that's right about 48 uh 47 or 48 that's incredible and when you have books that incredible and when you have books that incredible and when you have books that have sold Millions upon millions of have sold Millions upon millions of have sold Millions upon millions of copies you have a lot of people who copies you have a lot of people who copies you have a lot of people who admire and respect your work you also admire and respect your work you also admire and respect your work you also attract your share of critics right attract your share of critics right attract your share of critics right leadership does that writing putting leadership does that writing putting leadership does that writing putting yourself out there does that what is the yourself out there does that what is the yourself out there does that what is the best approach that you found to handling best approach that you found to handling best approach that you found to handling the criticism that the criticism that the criticism that inevitably is going to come your way inevitably is going to come your way inevitably is going to come your way look at it through concentric circles if look at it through concentric circles if look at it through concentric circles if my my my wife criticizes me I drop everything see wife criticizes me I drop everything see wife criticizes me I drop everything see what she has to say if my dear friends I what she has to say if my dear friends I what she has to say if my dear friends I have two or three with whom I work and have two or three with whom I work and have two or three with whom I work and play if they want to point something out play if they want to point something out play if they want to point something out I I will press pause on life and listen I I will press pause on life and listen I I will press pause on life and listen to it if my elders um have a concern I'm

to it if my elders um have a concern I'm to it if my elders um have a concern I'm accountable to them so by all means I accountable to them so by all means I accountable to them so by all means I will listen then the next circle is the will listen then the next circle is the will listen then the next circle is the church our church is somewhat large and church our church is somewhat large and church our church is somewhat large and so not every time when I receiv received so not every time when I receiv received so not every time when I receiv received a criticism do I uh engage but I will at a criticism do I uh engage but I will at a criticism do I uh engage but I will at least call I will I will pick up the least call I will I will pick up the least call I will I will pick up the phone and call and see if I can help phone and call and see if I can help phone and call and see if I can help explain or understand what happened more explain or understand what happened more explain or understand what happened more the next concentric Sur CC would be the next concentric Sur CC would be the next concentric Sur CC would be colleagues uh people with whom I have colleagues uh people with whom I have colleagues uh people with whom I have great respect uh but with whom I don't great respect uh but with whom I don't great respect uh but with whom I don't spend a lot of time it might be you spend a lot of time it might be you spend a lot of time it might be you Carrie you know it might be somebody Carrie you know it might be somebody Carrie you know it might be somebody pastoring out in California might be pastoring out in California might be pastoring out in California might be somebody you know they and they contact somebody you know they and they contact somebody you know they and they contact me and say Max we heard that or and me and say Max we heard that or and me and say Max we heard that or and they're always so kind it's a it's a they're always so kind it's a it's a they're always so kind it's a it's a wonderful tone you can tell when wonderful tone you can tell when wonderful tone you can tell when somebody wants the best for you we're somebody wants the best for you we're somebody wants the best for you we're concerned that you're speaking at that concerned that you're speaking at that concerned that you're speaking at that event or have you uh really did you event or have you uh really did you event or have you uh really did you really say that on social media and if really say that on social media and if really say that on social media and if it's if it's a you know a colleague for it's if it's a you know a colleague for it's if it's a you know a colleague for whom I have great respect I'll whom I have great respect I'll whom I have great respect I'll immediately respond and then the Outer immediately respond and then the Outer immediately respond and then the Outer Circle it's just the public the public Circle it's just the public the public Circle it's just the public the public and um I don't engage much yeah I just and um I don't engage much yeah I just and um I don't engage much yeah I just don't let the reviews fall where they don't let the reviews fall where they don't let the reviews fall where they may yeah let them fall where they may may yeah let them fall where they may may yeah let them fall where they may and all this stuff on social media I and all this stuff on social media I and all this stuff on social media I don't even read it we get letters of don't even read it we get letters of don't even read it we get letters of criticism over doctrinal questions or criticism over doctrinal questions or criticism over doctrinal questions or issues I I don't even reply uh my

issues I I don't even reply uh my issues I I don't even reply uh my wonderful assistant has a has kind of a wonderful assistant has a has kind of a wonderful assistant has a has kind of a standard letter and I'm sorry I know standard letter and I'm sorry I know standard letter and I'm sorry I know that comes across as impersonal but who that comes across as impersonal but who that comes across as impersonal but who has the time you know to talk to well if has the time you know to talk to well if has the time you know to talk to well if you're looking for a job right I'm sure you're looking for a job right I'm sure you're looking for a job right I'm sure you could spend full time doing that Max you could spend full time doing that Max you could spend full time doing that Max you know I mean honestly it's just it's you know I mean honestly it's just it's you know I mean honestly it's just it's just not available and so she'll just not available and so she'll just not available and so she'll apologize on my behalf say Max just apologize on my behalf say Max just apologize on my behalf say Max just doesn't respond to these letters and doesn't respond to these letters and doesn't respond to these letters and that's fine I know that doesn't make that's fine I know that doesn't make that's fine I know that doesn't make people happy but that that work for me people happy but that that work for me people happy but that that work for me yeah does sense does that resonate or yeah does sense does that resonate or yeah does sense does that resonate or what do you oh it does yeah and I like what do you oh it does yeah and I like what do you oh it does yeah and I like the idea of concentric circles because the idea of concentric circles because the idea of concentric circles because the comments and feedback and criticism the comments and feedback and criticism the comments and feedback and criticism you get from that inner circle really you get from that inner circle really you get from that inner circle really should rock your world and um you know should rock your world and um you know should rock your world and um you know the elders and the people that uxa have the elders and the people that uxa have the elders and the people that uxa have a relationship with but we just happen a relationship with but we just happen a relationship with but we just happen to live in a world where you don't need to live in a world where you don't need to live in a world where you don't need any relationship to be able to criticize any relationship to be able to criticize any relationship to be able to criticize or uh challenge people which is which is or uh challenge people which is which is or uh challenge people which is which is interesting love to talk we're going to interesting love to talk we're going to interesting love to talk we're going to get into your book but I want to talk get into your book but I want to talk get into your book but I want to talk about the wider church just briefly about the wider church just briefly about the wider church just briefly before we get there love to know what is before we get there love to know what is before we get there love to know what is encouraging you when you look at at The encouraging you when you look at at The encouraging you when you look at at The Wider church and the state of the church Wider church and the state of the church Wider church and the state of the church today and then are there any things that today and then are there any things that today and then are there any things that are kind of like concerning you when you are kind of like concerning you when you are kind of like concerning you when you look at the wider Church state of the look at the wider Church state of the look at the wider Church state of the church yeah I'm super excited about uh church yeah I'm super excited about uh church yeah I'm super excited about uh the youngest generation or the younger the youngest generation or the younger the youngest generation or the younger generation I'm reading about revivals at generation I'm reading about revivals at generation I'm reading about revivals at the University of Florida and un the University of Florida and un the University of Florida and un University of Alabama University of Alabama University of Alabama Tennessee we're seeing a great

Tennessee we're seeing a great Tennessee we're seeing a great Resurgence here at our own church uh Resurgence here at our own church uh Resurgence here at our own church uh among our young people and uh I'm I'm among our young people and uh I'm I'm among our young people and uh I'm I'm super excited and I think that their super excited and I think that their super excited and I think that their faith is uh a little different than the faith is uh a little different than the faith is uh a little different than the faith I had as a young man when it was a faith I had as a young man when it was a faith I had as a young man when it was a cool thing to be a Christian and now cool thing to be a Christian and now cool thing to be a Christian and now it's not so much right and they're it's not so much right and they're it's not so much right and they're making a conscious decision to step out making a conscious decision to step out making a conscious decision to step out of one worldview into another worldview of one worldview into another worldview of one worldview into another worldview and they're equipped to explain why to and they're equipped to explain why to and they're equipped to explain why to defend it and some of them are doing so defend it and some of them are doing so defend it and some of them are doing so at at significant personal cost uh so at at significant personal cost uh so at at significant personal cost uh so I'm very very encouraged by that um and I'm very very encouraged by that um and I'm very very encouraged by that um and and young pastors that I meet uh both and young pastors that I meet uh both and young pastors that I meet uh both male and female are sharp just so sharp male and female are sharp just so sharp male and female are sharp just so sharp they're on top of things and they ask they're on top of things and they ask they're on top of things and they ask great questions and they're wrestling great questions and they're wrestling great questions and they're wrestling with issues social issues that are with issues social issues that are with issues social issues that are really um I never had to come face to really um I never had to come face to really um I never had to come face to face with issues of of sexuality and face with issues of of sexuality and face with issues of of sexuality and gender um that are so uh prevalent in to gender um that are so uh prevalent in to gender um that are so uh prevalent in to to to younger people and they're coming to to younger people and they're coming to to younger people and they're coming to certain convictions so I'm I'm I am to certain convictions so I'm I'm I am to certain convictions so I'm I'm I am bullish I'm bullish on the Young bullish I'm bullish on the Young bullish I'm bullish on the Young Generation we call that gen Z sometimes Generation we call that gen Z sometimes Generation we call that gen Z sometimes I get my cat yeah JZ zenal I get my cat yeah JZ zenal I get my cat yeah JZ zenal yeah I'm real bullish Zoomers good I oh yeah I'm real bullish Zoomers good I oh yeah I'm real bullish Zoomers good I oh good good I was going to ask you if you good good I was going to ask you if you good good I was going to ask you if you had that same experience yeah had that same experience yeah had that same experience yeah the the concern that I think uh and I am

the the concern that I think uh and I am the the concern that I think uh and I am seeing it I'm not hyper concerned about seeing it I'm not hyper concerned about seeing it I'm not hyper concerned about it I am I don't know how much to go into it I am I don't know how much to go into it I am I don't know how much to go into uh evangelicals and politics right here uh evangelicals and politics right here uh evangelicals and politics right here that's a that's a hot one I'm doing a that's a that's a hot one I'm doing a that's a that's a hot one I'm doing a whole series on divided America United whole series on divided America United whole series on divided America United Church this year I just preached a Church this year I just preached a Church this year I just preached a sermon called the United Church in a sermon called the United Church in a sermon called the United Church in a divided World wow asking could we keep divided World wow asking could we keep divided World wow asking could we keep the main thing the main thing um you the main thing the main thing um you the main thing the main thing um you know could we could we return to 1 know could we could we return to 1 know could we could we return to 1 Corinthians 15 uh this I commit un of Corinthians 15 uh this I commit un of Corinthians 15 uh this I commit un of first importance what's of first first importance what's of first first importance what's of first importance that you can be a donkey I importance that you can be a donkey I importance that you can be a donkey I can be an elephant or I can be can be an elephant or I can be can be an elephant or I can be independent but if we agree on that independent but if we agree on that independent but if we agree on that we've got to fight for that unity and I we've got to fight for that unity and I we've got to fight for that unity and I think that's a that's a really concern think that's a that's a really concern think that's a that's a really concern uh and I'm I'm pray that we do better in uh and I'm I'm pray that we do better in uh and I'm I'm pray that we do better in 2024 than we did in 2016 and 2024 than we did in 2016 and 2024 than we did in 2016 and 2020 um in terms of American politics 2020 um in terms of American politics 2020 um in terms of American politics yeah and I think I'm not confident we yeah and I think I'm not confident we yeah and I think I'm not confident we will but I'm hopeful yeah this I'm just will but I'm hopeful yeah this I'm just will but I'm hopeful yeah this I'm just looking actually this is going to air a looking actually this is going to air a looking actually this is going to air a couple weeks before we start it but couple weeks before we start it but couple weeks before we start it but we're doing pastoring in a partisan age we're doing pastoring in a partisan age we're doing pastoring in a partisan age so man yeah trying to figure that out so man yeah trying to figure that out so man yeah trying to figure that out are you uh interviewing people or are are you uh interviewing people or are are you uh interviewing people or are these thoughts I am we have an almost these thoughts I am we have an almost these thoughts I am we have an almost we're doing this months in advance but we're doing this months in advance but we're doing this months in advance but we have an almost final lineup for that we have an almost final lineup for that we have an almost final lineup for that series and we're trying to figure out series and we're trying to figure out series and we're trying to figure out where is not the way but like a third where is not the way but like a third where is not the way but like a third way what is a an other option for those way what is a an other option for those way what is a an other option for those who don't want to take a you know hey I who don't want to take a you know hey I who don't want to take a you know hey I am you know buying this agenda and I'm am you know buying this agenda and I'm am you know buying this agenda and I'm buying that agenda or whatever so yeah

buying that agenda or whatever so yeah buying that agenda or whatever so yeah or you can't be a Christian if you vote or you can't be a Christian if you vote or you can't be a Christian if you vote for this person exactly that's that's for this person exactly that's that's for this person exactly that's that's that's harsh you know oh by the time I that's harsh you know oh by the time I that's harsh you know oh by the time I moved to San Antonio in 1988 Buckner moved to San Antonio in 1988 Buckner moved to San Antonio in 1988 Buckner Fanning was already a hero he was the Fanning was already a hero he was the Fanning was already a hero he was the senior pastor of Trinity Baptist church senior pastor of Trinity Baptist church senior pastor of Trinity Baptist church and ended up serving there for 40 years and ended up serving there for 40 years and ended up serving there for 40 years um when I first met him he shared with um when I first met him he shared with um when I first met him he shared with me the most amazing story and he was a me the most amazing story and he was a me the most amazing story and he was a Marine in World War II Carrie and uh was Marine in World War II Carrie and uh was Marine in World War II Carrie and uh was stationed in Nagasaki three weeks after stationed in Nagasaki three weeks after stationed in Nagasaki three weeks after the atomic bomb went off and he told me the atomic bomb went off and he told me the atomic bomb went off and he told me that he was walking down the streets of that he was walking down the streets of that he was walking down the streets of the ruined City completely collapsed the ruined City completely collapsed the ruined City completely collapsed everything dust covered and Ash covered everything dust covered and Ash covered everything dust covered and Ash covered people wanding the streets almost like people wanding the streets almost like people wanding the streets almost like zombies he saw a sign in Japanese and zombies he saw a sign in Japanese and zombies he saw a sign in Japanese and English that said um Baptist Church and English that said um Baptist Church and English that said um Baptist Church and being a devout Baptist he he made note being a devout Baptist he he made note being a devout Baptist he he made note of it and returned there the following of it and returned there the following of it and returned there the following Sunday wearing his milit AR best his Sunday wearing his milit AR best his Sunday wearing his milit AR best his Marine uniform walked into what used to Marine uniform walked into what used to Marine uniform walked into what used to be a church building it was collapsed be a church building it was collapsed be a church building it was collapsed the walls were out pews were destroyed the walls were out pews were destroyed the walls were out pews were destroyed and yet there was a cluster he said of and yet there was a cluster he said of and yet there was a cluster he said of about 15 Japanese Believers and they about 15 Japanese Believers and they about 15 Japanese Believers and they were in a circle uh one of them sharing were in a circle uh one of them sharing were in a circle uh one of them sharing with the others and when they saw this with the others and when they saw this with the others and when they saw this American can you imagine that moment American can you imagine that moment American can you imagine that moment when they saw this American they all when they saw this American they all when they saw this American they all stood and they motioned for him to come stood and they motioned for him to come stood and they motioned for him to come over and they pulled out a chair and over and they pulled out a chair and over and they pulled out a chair and they put him in their they put him in their they put him in their Circle and then later on they shared Circle and then later on they shared Circle and then later on they shared communion and he said they brought me

communion and he said they brought me communion and he said they brought me the bread and they brought me the cup the bread and they brought me the cup the bread and they brought me the cup and he said in that moment we were not and he said in that moment we were not and he said in that moment we were not enemies but we were enemies but we were enemies but we were brothers and I think that's the most brothers and I think that's the most brothers and I think that's the most powerful story of Japanese of of of powerful story of Japanese of of of powerful story of Japanese of of of people in one end of a spectrum reaching people in one end of a spectrum reaching people in one end of a spectrum reaching over to someone on the other side of the over to someone on the other side of the over to someone on the other side of the Spectrum in the name of Jesus Spectrum in the name of Jesus Spectrum in the name of Jesus saying we're bonded by the death burial saying we're bonded by the death burial saying we're bonded by the death burial and resurrection of Christ I mean could and resurrection of Christ I mean could and resurrection of Christ I mean could two people groups be more isolated you two people groups be more isolated you two people groups be more isolated you know there was so much potential for know there was so much potential for know there was so much potential for hostility just in that moment and yet hostility just in that moment and yet hostility just in that moment and yet there was peace because of Christ that's there was peace because of Christ that's there was peace because of Christ that's the power of the Gospel that's the power the power of the Gospel that's the power the power of the Gospel that's the power when we make the big thing the big when we make the big thing the big when we make the big thing the big thing uh free sermon there you didn't thing uh free sermon there you didn't thing uh free sermon there you didn't charge me that was I've never heard that charge me that was I've never heard that charge me that was I've never heard that story what was his name again his name story what was his name again his name story what was his name again his name was Buckner Fanning Buckner Fanning just was Buckner Fanning Buckner Fanning just was Buckner Fanning Buckner Fanning just a beautiful man wonderful man he had a a beautiful man wonderful man he had a a beautiful man wonderful man he had a had a long flowing Mane of hair that did had a long flowing Mane of hair that did had a long flowing Mane of hair that did twice we mentioned Billy Graham he twice we mentioned Billy Graham he twice we mentioned Billy Graham he looked like Billy Graham to me a dear looked like Billy Graham to me a dear looked like Billy Graham to me a dear man a dear man oh that's a beautiful man a dear man oh that's a beautiful man a dear man oh that's a beautiful story and an act of Grace I pray we can story and an act of Grace I pray we can story and an act of Grace I pray we can do that this time I hope so too I'm do that this time I hope so too I'm do that this time I hope so too I'm praying that too yeah so you're diving praying that too yeah so you're diving praying that too yeah so you're diving into the deep end of the end times Max into the deep end of the end times Max into the deep end of the end times Max you know were you just bored were you you know were you just bored were you you know were you just bored were you looking for something to do what made looking for something to do what made looking for something to do what made you write a book on the end what made me you write a book on the end what made me you write a book on the end what made me do do do this yeah I had that question many times this yeah I had that question many times this yeah I had that question many times when I was uh in the midst of it uh the

when I was uh in the midst of it uh the when I was uh in the midst of it uh the the the an there's there's two good the the an there's there's two good the the an there's there's two good answers to that one is that like I answers to that one is that like I answers to that one is that like I mentioned I'm about to turn 70 so I have mentioned I'm about to turn 70 so I have mentioned I'm about to turn 70 so I have far more sand on the lower part of The far more sand on the lower part of The far more sand on the lower part of The Hourglass than on the top and uh my bald Hourglass than on the top and uh my bald Hourglass than on the top and uh my bald spot's getting bigger and my hair is spot's getting bigger and my hair is spot's getting bigger and my hair is getting grayer and uh Carrie I'm I'm getting grayer and uh Carrie I'm I'm getting grayer and uh Carrie I'm I'm just I'm just really C curious about just I'm just really C curious about just I'm just really C curious about what's about to happen I'm just so what's about to happen I'm just so what's about to happen I'm just so curious I'm not afraid I'm not curious I'm not afraid I'm not curious I'm not afraid I'm not anxious but I just can't wait I told my anxious but I just can't wait I told my anxious but I just can't wait I told my wife uh that I feel like I'm a kid wife uh that I feel like I'm a kid wife uh that I feel like I'm a kid outside of an amusement park and the outside of an amusement park and the outside of an amusement park and the gates are about to gates are about to gates are about to open I just can't wait I've I've read open I just can't wait I've I've read open I just can't wait I've I've read about heaven all my life I've talked about heaven all my life I've talked about heaven all my life I've talked about heaven just like you have I've um about heaven just like you have I've um about heaven just like you have I've um even been there when people died like my even been there when people died like my even been there when people died like my dad I held his hand when he took his dad I held his hand when he took his dad I held his hand when he took his last breath and I've have been with many last breath and I've have been with many last breath and I've have been with many church members as they were passing from church members as they were passing from church members as they were passing from this life to the next but I'm always this life to the next but I'm always this life to the next but I'm always this side of it and now that I'm closer this side of it and now that I'm closer this side of it and now that I'm closer I don't know if I'm close but now I'm I don't know if I'm close but now I'm I don't know if I'm close but now I'm closer I found myself just insatiably closer I found myself just insatiably closer I found myself just insatiably curious about um what I'm GNA find when curious about um what I'm GNA find when curious about um what I'm GNA find when I cross over and so that turned into I cross over and so that turned into I cross over and so that turned into rediscovering some wonderful books that rediscovering some wonderful books that rediscovering some wonderful books that I already had and then conversations I already had and then conversations I already had and then conversations with people uh of different with people uh of different with people uh of different viewpoints and uh I realized I'd like to viewpoints and uh I realized I'd like to viewpoints and uh I realized I'd like to dig into this more and then couple that dig into this more and then couple that dig into this more and then couple that not just my curiosity about uh what's

not just my curiosity about uh what's not just my curiosity about uh what's next but also my concern for what's next but also my concern for what's next but also my concern for what's happening right now in the world uh you happening right now in the world uh you happening right now in the world uh you know the we don't need to dig into all know the we don't need to dig into all know the we don't need to dig into all the statistics because you know them so the statistics because you know them so the statistics because you know them so well but one out of every eight teenager well but one out of every eight teenager well but one out of every eight teenager has considered suicide one out of four has considered suicide one out of four has considered suicide one out of four battles some mental health issue related battles some mental health issue related battles some mental health issue related to depression and anxiety the suicide to depression and anxiety the suicide to depression and anxiety the suicide rates the highest has been in since rates the highest has been in since rates the highest has been in since World War II so it's it's like the world World War II so it's it's like the world World War II so it's it's like the world is still on lockdown you we're still is still on lockdown you we're still is still on lockdown you we're still stressed it's like the whole world is is stressed it's like the whole world is is stressed it's like the whole world is is uh trapped on the tarmac in an airplane uh trapped on the tarmac in an airplane uh trapped on the tarmac in an airplane that's stuck in a storm and and and the that's stuck in a storm and and and the that's stuck in a storm and and and the Pilot's not talking to us and we we Pilot's not talking to us and we we Pilot's not talking to us and we we we're all getting anancy and angry and we're all getting anancy and angry and we're all getting anancy and angry and bitter and Afraid and and that's all bitter and Afraid and and that's all bitter and Afraid and and that's all figuring in so you know from the very figuring in so you know from the very figuring in so you know from the very beginning uh Jesus was urging his beginning uh Jesus was urging his beginning uh Jesus was urging his followers when they feel anxious lift up followers when they feel anxious lift up followers when they feel anxious lift up your eyes you know your Redemption is your eyes you know your Redemption is your eyes you know your Redemption is near when you see these things happening near when you see these things happening near when you see these things happening lift up your eyes your Redemption is lift up your eyes your Redemption is lift up your eyes your Redemption is near so th those are the two things now near so th those are the two things now near so th those are the two things now I didn't know if it would be a book I didn't know if it would be a book I didn't know if it would be a book Carrie you know I always preach a sermon Carrie you know I always preach a sermon Carrie you know I always preach a sermon series and then see if it if it would be series and then see if it if it would be series and then see if it if it would be worthy as a worthwhile to turn into a worthy as a worthwhile to turn into a worthy as a worthwhile to turn into a book the church just ate it up just ate book the church just ate it up just ate book the church just ate it up just ate it up and and I notice that one of the it up and and I notice that one of the it up and and I notice that one of the things we're going to talk about is how things we're going to talk about is how things we're going to talk about is how to teach on in times to a church and I to teach on in times to a church and I to teach on in times to a church and I learned a lot during that I might share learned a lot during that I might share learned a lot during that I might share an idea or two but well why don't we why an idea or two but well why don't we why an idea or two but well why don't we why don't we start with that how do you don't we start with that how do you don't we start with that how do you teach on the end times I think with teach on the end times I think with teach on the end times I think with great reverence with great reverence

great reverence with great reverence great reverence with great reverence with great Open Hands every weekend that with great Open Hands every weekend that with great Open Hands every weekend that I would teach on it I would say I'm I would teach on it I would say I'm I would teach on it I would say I'm going to share with you my best thoughts going to share with you my best thoughts going to share with you my best thoughts they may not be your thoughts but these they may not be your thoughts but these they may not be your thoughts but these are my best thoughts you study on your are my best thoughts you study on your are my best thoughts you study on your own but after I've studied here's where own but after I've studied here's where own but after I've studied here's where I've landed so i i people appreciated I've landed so i i people appreciated I've landed so i i people appreciated that caveat because like many churches that caveat because like many churches that caveat because like many churches we come from a variety of backgrounds we come from a variety of backgrounds we come from a variety of backgrounds either absolutely no church background either absolutely no church background either absolutely no church background or or strong I don't know uh or or strong I don't know uh or or strong I don't know uh dispensational background or a dispensational background or a dispensational background or a millennial background or not knowing my millennial background or not knowing my millennial background or not knowing my background and so uh but bottom line is background and so uh but bottom line is background and so uh but bottom line is that people ate it up and I received a that people ate it up and I received a that people ate it up and I received a lot of feedback saying thank you for not lot of feedback saying thank you for not lot of feedback saying thank you for not forcing your view or or requiring forcing your view or or requiring forcing your view or or requiring uh that that uh I see things your way uh that that uh I see things your way uh that that uh I see things your way because I don't quite Pastor I don't because I don't quite Pastor I don't because I don't quite Pastor I don't quite agree with you you know I grew up quite agree with you you know I grew up quite agree with you you know I grew up being taught this but I'm going to study being taught this but I'm going to study being taught this but I'm going to study it that was Payday for me when people it that was Payday for me when people it that was Payday for me when people would say things like that and so I I would say things like that and so I I would say things like that and so I I think I don't don't underestimate the think I don't don't underestimate the think I don't don't underestimate the appetite of the church for these appetite of the church for these appetite of the church for these discussions and and it's okay to tell discussions and and it's okay to tell discussions and and it's okay to tell the church I'm working this through in the church I'm working this through in the church I'm working this through in my own mind uh but here's where I've my own mind uh but here's where I've my own mind uh but here's where I've here I here's where I've landed that's a here I here's where I've landed that's a here I here's where I've landed that's a good caveat because your book is called good caveat because your book is called good caveat because your book is called what happens next and you definitely what happens next and you definitely what happens next and you definitely have a point of view like you know you have a point of view like you know you have a point of view like you know you take a position on the millennial take a position on the millennial take a position on the millennial Millennium the the Thousand-Year reign Millennium the the Thousand-Year reign Millennium the the Thousand-Year reign of Christ you have a definitive of Christ you have a definitive of Christ you have a definitive viewpoint on the Rapture etc etc and you

viewpoint on the Rapture etc etc and you viewpoint on the Rapture etc etc and you know you come out saying you believe the know you come out saying you believe the know you come out saying you believe the end is near right like you don't know end is near right like you don't know end is near right like you don't know exactly when but you think it's closer exactly when but you think it's closer exactly when but you think it's closer rather than further away um so I just I rather than further away um so I just I rather than further away um so I just I just want to get this Nuance right Max just want to get this Nuance right Max just want to get this Nuance right Max is what I hear you saying is definitely is what I hear you saying is definitely is what I hear you saying is definitely bring a point of view but hold it bring a point of view but hold it bring a point of view but hold it Loosely and give other people the Loosely and give other people the Loosely and give other people the incentive to study and draw their own incentive to study and draw their own incentive to study and draw their own conclusions is that what you're saying conclusions is that what you're saying conclusions is that what you're saying perfect summary perfect summary of what perfect summary perfect summary of what perfect summary perfect summary of what I was trying to say rather than of I was trying to say rather than of I was trying to say rather than of course it's the Rapture you better course it's the Rapture you better course it's the Rapture you better believe it right or the other extreme uh believe it right or the other extreme uh believe it right or the other extreme uh another a friend of mine said well I'm another a friend of mine said well I'm another a friend of mine said well I'm going to every uh sermon I'm going to going to every uh sermon I'm going to going to every uh sermon I'm going to give the three positions on a particular give the three positions on a particular give the three positions on a particular topic or the four positions and I saidou topic or the four positions and I saidou topic or the four positions and I saidou going to wear people out either that you've got a two-hour either that you've got a two-hour preaching block I only have 25 minutes preaching block I only have 25 minutes preaching block I only have 25 minutes so what I tried to do is uh provide so what I tried to do is uh provide so what I tried to do is uh provide sermon notes and um here's a great book sermon notes and um here's a great book sermon notes and um here's a great book called four views of the Millennium called four views of the Millennium called four views of the Millennium three views of the Rapture or uh four three views of the Rapture or uh four three views of the Rapture or uh four views of Eternal punishment you know and views of Eternal punishment you know and views of Eternal punishment you know and I and I would just provide people with I and I would just provide people with I and I would just provide people with resources and if they want to dig in I resources and if they want to dig in I resources and if they want to dig in I made them available to them and and yet made them available to them and and yet made them available to them and and yet I didn't want to turn the oh it's so I didn't want to turn the oh it's so I didn't want to turn the oh it's so hard right Carrie because I mean we're hard right Carrie because I mean we're hard right Carrie because I mean we're not talking to Seminary students right not talking to Seminary students right not talking to Seminary students right we're talking to right well I mean those we're talking to right well I mean those we're talking to right well I mean those of us who went to Seminary it's like I of us who went to Seminary it's like I of us who went to Seminary it's like I had to brush up on my a millennialism I had to brush up on my a millennialism I had to brush up on my a millennialism I can't even say it a millennialism

can't even say it a millennialism can't even say it a millennialism premillennialism postmillennialism right premillennialism postmillennialism right premillennialism postmillennialism right I had to brush up on that getting ready I had to brush up on that getting ready I had to brush up on that getting ready for this interview and prepping for your for this interview and prepping for your for this interview and prepping for your book so because it's not top of mind book so because it's not top of mind book so because it's not top of mind it's not what I major in most days so it's not what I major in most days so it's not what I major in most days so yeah you're right if it's complicated yeah you're right if it's complicated yeah you're right if it's complicated for preachers it's going to be uh more for preachers it's going to be uh more for preachers it's going to be uh more alling yeah the people who attend church alling yeah the people who attend church alling yeah the people who attend church they parked a truck the night before you they parked a truck the night before you they parked a truck the night before you know after driving all week and or they know after driving all week and or they know after driving all week and or they barely made it because they had to barely made it because they had to barely made it because they had to change the diers all morning and here change the diers all morning and here change the diers all morning and here I'm going to talk to them about the I'm going to talk to them about the I'm going to talk to them about the difference between uh dispensational difference between uh dispensational difference between uh dispensational premillennialism and historic premillennialism and historic premillennialism and historic premillennialism and that that might be premillennialism and that that might be premillennialism and that that might be fascinating for Loo Who has the luxury fascinating for Loo Who has the luxury fascinating for Loo Who has the luxury of sitting at a desk you know all day of sitting at a desk you know all day of sitting at a desk you know all day Friday and Saturday or all day Thursday Friday and Saturday or all day Thursday Friday and Saturday or all day Thursday and Friday and reading about it and and and Friday and reading about it and and and Friday and reading about it and and and but that's not that's not preaching and but that's not that's not preaching and but that's not that's not preaching I don't think I think we we um we the I don't think I think we we um we the I don't think I think we we um we the rule of thumb still always preached like rule of thumb still always preached like rule of thumb still always preached like there's a broken heart on every Pew there's a broken heart on every Pew there's a broken heart on every Pew because there is and and and uh don't be because there is and and and uh don't be because there is and and and uh don't be dogmatic and um equip people who really dogmatic and um equip people who really dogmatic and um equip people who really want to learn but don't let anybody es want to learn but don't let anybody es want to learn but don't let anybody es leave the church thinking well that was leave the church thinking well that was leave the church thinking well that was over my head that was Jesus didn't do over my head that was Jesus didn't do over my head that was Jesus didn't do that you did a beautiful job of like it that you did a beautiful job of like it that you did a beautiful job of like it was definitely you like you know wasn't was definitely you like you know wasn't was definitely you like you know wasn't like all of a sudden I'm in some barely like all of a sudden I'm in some barely like all of a sudden I'm in some barely translated you know Greek textbook uh translated you know Greek textbook uh translated you know Greek textbook uh explaining explaining explaining dispensationalism um you it was it was dispensationalism um you it was it was dispensationalism um you it was it was definitely you and it was very clear and definitely you and it was very clear and definitely you and it was very clear and it was very easy to understand so well

it was very easy to understand so well it was very easy to understand so well done that way that's kind that's kind done that way that's kind that's kind done that way that's kind that's kind I'm curious why do you think people ate I'm curious why do you think people ate I'm curious why do you think people ate it up why do you think the hunger was it up why do you think the hunger was it up why do you think the hunger was there why did it get cuz I what I'm there why did it get cuz I what I'm there why did it get cuz I what I'm sensing is you weren't sure how it was sensing is you weren't sure how it was sensing is you weren't sure how it was going to go right and you thought well going to go right and you thought well going to go right and you thought well let's try this out yeah I think let's try this out yeah I think let's try this out yeah I think primarily is the world in which we live primarily is the world in which we live primarily is the world in which we live I was preaching this series when October I was preaching this series when October I was preaching this series when October 7th happened in Israel oh wow um even if 7th happened in Israel oh wow um even if 7th happened in Israel oh wow um even if even if that had not happened there's even if that had not happened there's even if that had not happened there's enough tension in the world on the world enough tension in the world on the world enough tension in the world on the world stage to make people wonder uh is stage to make people wonder uh is stage to make people wonder uh is something happening here how do I something happening here how do I something happening here how do I interpret it hey I heard so and so interpret it hey I heard so and so interpret it hey I heard so and so Pastor talk about Israel I heard another Pastor talk about Israel I heard another Pastor talk about Israel I heard another Pastor say it's Israel's not a player in Pastor say it's Israel's not a player in Pastor say it's Israel's not a player in the end somebody else is saying we need the end somebody else is saying we need the end somebody else is saying we need to read these signs of of the times how to read these signs of of the times how to read these signs of of the times how do I know so these are questions that do I know so these are questions that do I know so these are questions that people are hearing in addition uh we're people are hearing in addition uh we're people are hearing in addition uh we're still reeling from the pandemic and and still reeling from the pandemic and and still reeling from the pandemic and and we're still reeling uh from the we're in we're still reeling uh from the we're in we're still reeling uh from the we're in the middle of political tension I I the middle of political tension I I the middle of political tension I I think if we can present end times in a think if we can present end times in a think if we can present end times in a way that's not dogmatic but clear I I way that's not dogmatic but clear I I way that's not dogmatic but clear I I would try to use the word decisive but would try to use the word decisive but would try to use the word decisive but not divisive or opinion without not divisive or opinion without not divisive or opinion without opinionated being opinionated be quite opinionated being opinionated be quite opinionated being opinionated be quite Frank in what you think but be gracious Frank in what you think but be gracious Frank in what you think but be gracious I often said to the church I would I often said to the church I would I often said to the church I would quickly remind us I say you know we're quickly remind us I say you know we're quickly remind us I say you know we're saved by God's grace through faith not saved by God's grace through faith not saved by God's grace through faith not by cracking the cat on the Millennium by cracking the cat on the Millennium by cracking the cat on the Millennium that always got a chuckle and that was that always got a chuckle and that was that always got a chuckle and that was also reassuring to people because that

also reassuring to people because that also reassuring to people because that that told people that okay if I even if that told people that okay if I even if that told people that okay if I even if I never get it loo I I'm at peace I'm at I never get it loo I I'm at peace I'm at I never get it loo I I'm at peace I'm at peace you know and and so I I do believe peace you know and and so I I do believe peace you know and and so I I do believe that that's those are important caveats that that's those are important caveats that that's those are important caveats with which to teach yeah yeah I think with which to teach yeah yeah I think with which to teach yeah yeah I think one of the fears a lot of leaders have one of the fears a lot of leaders have one of the fears a lot of leaders have is if I go there it's going to bring out is if I go there it's going to bring out is if I go there it's going to bring out the crazies you know the people who read the crazies you know the people who read the crazies you know the people who read did you experience that did you get a did you experience that did you get a did you experience that did you get a lot of unusual traffic yeah it's the lot of unusual traffic yeah it's the lot of unusual traffic yeah it's the serengetti of theology it's Where The Wild Game theology it's Where The Wild Game Hunters go and uh and that's part of the Hunters go and uh and that's part of the Hunters go and uh and that's part of the challenge is that um many of the people challenge is that um many of the people challenge is that um many of the people who have who have who have and a few of the people I shouldn't say and a few of the people I shouldn't say and a few of the people I shouldn't say that a few of the people who teach in that a few of the people who teach in that a few of the people who teach in this world are absolutely convinced that this world are absolutely convinced that this world are absolutely convinced that they are absolutely correct and you they are absolutely correct and you they are absolutely correct and you almost get the impression they know more almost get the impression they know more almost get the impression they know more about the end times than Jesus does and about the end times than Jesus does and about the end times than Jesus does and they they come across that way and so uh they they come across that way and so uh they they come across that way and so uh we we did have some interesting we we did have some interesting we we did have some interesting conversations in the foyer with some conversations in the foyer with some conversations in the foyer with some people uh but not too many not too many people uh but not too many not too many people uh but not too many not too many I wouldn't let that keep me from doing I wouldn't let that keep me from doing I wouldn't let that keep me from doing it and it and it and so I say it is a serengetti because it so I say it is a serengetti because it so I say it is a serengetti because it is full of numbers and and challenging is full of numbers and and challenging is full of numbers and and challenging passages and prophetic scriptures The passages and prophetic scriptures The passages and prophetic scriptures The Book of Daniel The Book of Revelation th Book of Daniel The Book of Revelation th Book of Daniel The Book of Revelation th those are enough to cause people to Run those are enough to cause people to Run those are enough to cause people to Run to the Hills but we also have the to the Hills but we also have the to the Hills but we also have the promise that Jesus gave the the promise that Jesus gave the the promise that Jesus gave the the followers on the night before his C

followers on the night before his C followers on the night before his C crucifixion that the holy spirit will crucifixion that the holy spirit will crucifixion that the holy spirit will lead you into all truth it will lead you lead you into all truth it will lead you lead you into all truth it will lead you into all truth and so I I I think it's into all truth and so I I I think it's into all truth and so I I I think it's worth it pastors to give it a go do uh worth it pastors to give it a go do uh worth it pastors to give it a go do uh give it a go and um allow your own uh give it a go and um allow your own uh give it a go and um allow your own uh preconceptions or conceptions I preconceptions or conceptions I preconceptions or conceptions I shouldn't say prec just your conceptions shouldn't say prec just your conceptions shouldn't say prec just your conceptions convictions just just allow them to be convictions just just allow them to be convictions just just allow them to be tested and there might be something that tested and there might be something that tested and there might be something that needs to be tweaked or changed what needs to be tweaked or changed what needs to be tweaked or changed what unites us as Believers is that Christ is unites us as Believers is that Christ is unites us as Believers is that Christ is coming the dead will be living and coming the dead will be living and coming the dead will be living and everything will be made right and that's everything will be made right and that's everything will be made right and that's enough that's enough for most people enough that's enough for most people enough that's enough for most people great now maybe when a person gets to be great now maybe when a person gets to be great now maybe when a person gets to be 70 they'll get insatiably curious like I 70 they'll get insatiably curious like I 70 they'll get insatiably curious like I am and need a few more answers and my am and need a few more answers and my am and need a few more answers and my book will be helpful or somebody's book book will be helpful or somebody's book book will be helpful or somebody's book will be helpful uh but we don't need to will be helpful uh but we don't need to will be helpful uh but we don't need to be dogmatic let's gather around those be dogmatic let's gather around those be dogmatic let's gather around those core issues Christ is coming the dead core issues Christ is coming the dead core issues Christ is coming the dead will be living and everything's going to will be living and everything's going to will be living and everything's going to be made right and it is going to be be made right and it is going to be be made right and it is going to be amazing it's going to be amazing and it amazing it's going to be amazing and it amazing it's going to be amazing and it truly is the solution to it's the green truly is the solution to it's the green truly is the solution to it's the green vegetable on the spiritual diet it is vegetable on the spiritual diet it is vegetable on the spiritual diet it is thinking about heaven about the return thinking about heaven about the return thinking about heaven about the return of Christ about the excitement of of Christ about the excitement of of Christ about the excitement of ultimate victory of being reunited with ultimate victory of being reunited with ultimate victory of being reunited with loved ones in a glor ified body in a loved ones in a glor ified body in a loved ones in a glor ified body in a perfected World perfected Universe it it perfected World perfected Universe it it perfected World perfected Universe it it has stimulated my faith has stimulated my faith has stimulated my faith personally um Carry as much as anything personally um Carry as much as anything personally um Carry as much as anything I've studied since I discovered Grace uh I've studied since I discovered Grace uh I've studied since I discovered Grace uh back in my 30s so it has it excited my

back in my 30s so it has it excited my back in my 30s so it has it excited my heart it's gotten me excited uh I I heart it's gotten me excited uh I I heart it's gotten me excited uh I I don't feel defensive really I I don't don't feel defensive really I I don't don't feel defensive really I I don't feel like I have to convince people to feel like I have to convince people to feel like I have to convince people to see the way I see I just want to share see the way I see I just want to share see the way I see I just want to share here's how I see you see it your way here's how I see you see it your way here's how I see you see it your way I'll see it my way we're going to agree I'll see it my way we're going to agree I'll see it my way we're going to agree on the big thing but let's have these on the big thing but let's have these on the big thing but let's have these healthy discussions and robust healthy discussions and robust healthy discussions and robust conversations but keep Christ as King in conversations but keep Christ as King in conversations but keep Christ as King in the book my last thought on this and in the book my last thought on this and in the book my last thought on this and in the book I said I'm a charter member of the book I said I'm a charter member of the book I said I'm a charter member of the PW poet Cafe in heaven preachers who the PW poet Cafe in heaven preachers who the PW poet Cafe in heaven preachers who preach on end times PW poet and I say preach on end times PW poet and I say preach on end times PW poet and I say we're gonna have a big Cafe and all of we're gonna have a big Cafe and all of we're gonna have a big Cafe and all of us who've tried to explain end times us who've tried to explain end times us who've tried to explain end times we'll get in there we'll have one life we'll get in there we'll have one life we'll get in there we'll have one life after another oh boy did I miss it there after another oh boy did I miss it there after another oh boy did I miss it there oh man was there and then our lord Jesus oh man was there and then our lord Jesus oh man was there and then our lord Jesus will come in and you know he'll I think will come in and you know he'll I think will come in and you know he'll I think he'll bless us he he'll say Well done or he'll bless us he he'll say Well done or he'll bless us he he'll say Well done or good good good effort and he that's that's what we're effort and he that's that's what we're effort and he that's that's what we're aiming for the practitioner in me needs aiming for the practitioner in me needs aiming for the practitioner in me needs to ask this question so when you got to ask this question so when you got to ask this question so when you got stopped in the hallway after a sermon by stopped in the hallway after a sermon by stopped in the hallway after a sermon by someone who has definite points of view someone who has definite points of view someone who has definite points of view on what you just taught how did you deal on what you just taught how did you deal on what you just taught how did you deal with those conversations and how did you with those conversations and how did you with those conversations and how did you extricate yourself from those extricate yourself from those extricate yourself from those conversations that's a great great Point conversations that's a great great Point conversations that's a great great Point what I did in my study was not study the what I did in my study was not study the what I did in my study was not study the Book of Daniel or study the Book of Book of Daniel or study the Book of Book of Daniel or study the Book of Revelation which is a wonderful approach Revelation which is a wonderful approach Revelation which is a wonderful approach but I found a better approach was to do

but I found a better approach was to do but I found a better approach was to do to to begin in the Garden of to to begin in the Garden of to to begin in the Garden of Eden and cast The Vision that God cast Eden and cast The Vision that God cast Eden and cast The Vision that God cast for us and that is to Reign and Rule for us and that is to Reign and Rule for us and that is to Reign and Rule with him in a perfect place with him in a perfect place with him in a perfect place in a perfect in a perfect in a perfect relationship in which he walks with us relationship in which he walks with us relationship in which he walks with us even in the cool of the evening that's even in the cool of the evening that's even in the cool of the evening that's the vision that God has and he's never the vision that God has and he's never the vision that God has and he's never changed that vision and so my thinking changed that vision and so my thinking changed that vision and so my thinking was if we can go back to the Garden go was if we can go back to the Garden go was if we can go back to the Garden go back to the Garden of Eden and we can back to the Garden of Eden and we can back to the Garden of Eden and we can ask ourselves the question how is God ask ourselves the question how is God ask ourselves the question how is God going to accomplish this because he does going to accomplish this because he does going to accomplish this because he does know the end from the beginning and he know the end from the beginning and he know the end from the beginning and he has seen everything he does view the has seen everything he does view the has seen everything he does view the world through for knowledge and so he world through for knowledge and so he world through for knowledge and so he has declared that he will have his has declared that he will have his has declared that he will have his garden um and so I found that if I could garden um and so I found that if I could garden um and so I found that if I could take people back to the garden and say take people back to the garden and say take people back to the garden and say okay I I hear what you're saying in okay I I hear what you're saying in okay I I hear what you're saying in terms of your your your reading of terms of your your your reading of terms of your your your reading of especially Revelation chapter 20 the especially Revelation chapter 20 the especially Revelation chapter 20 the Millennium I I get that and I agree with Millennium I I get that and I agree with Millennium I I get that and I agree with you I think Revelation 20 viewed in a you I think Revelation 20 viewed in a you I think Revelation 20 viewed in a more literal sense just makes sense to more literal sense just makes sense to more literal sense just makes sense to me because that's how God declared from me because that's how God declared from me because that's how God declared from the beginning he would have a Garden in the beginning he would have a Garden in the beginning he would have a Garden in which he would Reign and Rule with his which he would Reign and Rule with his which he would Reign and Rule with his children so I found that to be helpful children so I found that to be helpful children so I found that to be helpful and I don't know if I um could offer and I don't know if I um could offer and I don't know if I um could offer any I'm sure I don't offer a lot of any I'm sure I don't offer a lot of any I'm sure I don't offer a lot of brand new thinking but I had not seen brand new thinking but I had not seen brand new thinking but I had not seen enough of that I had not seen enough of enough of that I had not seen enough of enough of that I had not seen enough of that framing end times from starting in that framing end times from starting in that framing end times from starting in the earliest times uh and and if I were

the earliest times uh and and if I were the earliest times uh and and if I were to do it all over again I'd do exactly to do it all over again I'd do exactly to do it all over again I'd do exactly the same thing i' I'd begin with a great the same thing i' I'd begin with a great the same thing i' I'd begin with a great sermon on the Garden of Eden and then I sermon on the Garden of Eden and then I sermon on the Garden of Eden and then I would repeat promise of that Garden of would repeat promise of that Garden of would repeat promise of that Garden of Eden moment every weekend here's God's Eden moment every weekend here's God's Eden moment every weekend here's God's goal to have the people with whom he goal to have the people with whom he goal to have the people with whom he will reign and Rule forever for all we will reign and Rule forever for all we will reign and Rule forever for all we don't know that's what we do know and don't know that's what we do know and don't know that's what we do know and let's unpack and see how he is going to let's unpack and see how he is going to let's unpack and see how he is going to accomplish that well scripture is an accomplish that well scripture is an accomplish that well scripture is an inclusio it begins and ends on a very inclusio it begins and ends on a very inclusio it begins and ends on a very similar note it really does yeah so uh similar note it really does yeah so uh similar note it really does yeah so uh again hyper practical not to beat the again hyper practical not to beat the again hyper practical not to beat the question of death but you've got question of death but you've got question of death but you've got somebody who just wants to go at you for somebody who just wants to go at you for somebody who just wants to go at you for a half hour on what they know and what a half hour on what they know and what a half hour on what they know and what you don't know we've all been there uh you don't know we've all been there uh you don't know we've all been there uh what what do you do in a situation like what what do you do in a situation like what what do you do in a situation like that Max I that Max I that Max I say okay depending on the circumstance say okay depending on the circumstance say okay depending on the circumstance in the church foyer when you've got 15 in the church foyer when you've got 15 in the church foyer when you've got 15 or 20 people waiting to shake your hand or 20 people waiting to shake your hand or 20 people waiting to shake your hand that's not the time to go deep it's just that's not the time to go deep it's just that's not the time to go deep it's just really not it's really not um I really not it's really not um I really not it's really not um I especially if again get back to earlier especially if again get back to earlier especially if again get back to earlier question the question about critics if question the question about critics if question the question about critics if they're a church member then I'll I'll they're a church member then I'll I'll they're a church member then I'll I'll say can you come by the office on say can you come by the office on say can you come by the office on Tuesday can you come by and let's just Tuesday can you come by and let's just Tuesday can you come by and let's just sit down I'll block out 30 minutes or sit down I'll block out 30 minutes or sit down I'll block out 30 minutes or I'll block out an hour and we'll have a I'll block out an hour and we'll have a I'll block out an hour and we'll have a conversation about this if that's conversation about this if that's conversation about this if that's possible maybe I'm traveling and I can't possible maybe I'm traveling and I can't possible maybe I'm traveling and I can't do it for several weeks but uh I'll say do it for several weeks but uh I'll say do it for several weeks but uh I'll say I'll I'll sit down let's talk about it I'll I'll sit down let's talk about it I'll I'll sit down let's talk about it let's let's let's and I'm willing to do let's let's let's and I'm willing to do let's let's let's and I'm willing to do that I really am uh the people that I really am uh the people that I really am uh the people gratefully I don't think I had any

gratefully I don't think I had any gratefully I don't think I had any conversations with people who were uh conversations with people who were uh conversations with people who were uh unduly stubborn about their opinions uh unduly stubborn about their opinions uh unduly stubborn about their opinions uh they had strong con itions and uh it was they had strong con itions and uh it was they had strong con itions and uh it was healthy in both cases yeah and again if healthy in both cases yeah and again if healthy in both cases yeah and again if you're holding it somewhat Loosely I you're holding it somewhat Loosely I you're holding it somewhat Loosely I mean I I don't for people who haven't mean I I don't for people who haven't mean I I don't for people who haven't read the book I mean you do have a point read the book I mean you do have a point read the book I mean you do have a point of view like you've got a timeline you of view like you've got a timeline you of view like you've got a timeline you got a strong point of view a literal got a strong point of view a literal got a strong point of view a literal reign of Christ you know the Rapture the reign of Christ you know the Rapture the reign of Christ you know the Rapture the whole do whole deal but again if you're whole do whole deal but again if you're whole do whole deal but again if you're like hey this is my take this is how I like hey this is my take this is how I like hey this is my take this is how I read it here's some things we clear on read it here's some things we clear on read it here's some things we clear on here's some things that are not clear here's some things that are not clear here's some things that are not clear but this is my best shot you're probably but this is my best shot you're probably but this is my best shot you're probably going to frame the dialogue so that you going to frame the dialogue so that you going to frame the dialogue so that you minimize that kind of uh opposition too minimize that kind of uh opposition too minimize that kind of uh opposition too so I I got to ask you what was I mean so I I got to ask you what was I mean so I I got to ask you what was I mean this is a revisiting for you what was this is a revisiting for you what was this is a revisiting for you what was the most surprising finding as you the most surprising finding as you the most surprising finding as you studied the end times what was the thing studied the end times what was the thing studied the end times what was the thing that you kind of went like oh wow yeah that you kind of went like oh wow yeah that you kind of went like oh wow yeah either didn't know that or I really need either didn't know that or I really need either didn't know that or I really need to hear that again I never had a to hear that again I never had a to hear that again I never had a premillennial Pastor or Professor uh in premillennial Pastor or Professor uh in premillennial Pastor or Professor uh in the book I land on what's called the book I land on what's called the book I land on what's called dispensational premillennialism I don't dispensational premillennialism I don't dispensational premillennialism I don't like being put in camps but everybody like being put in camps but everybody like being put in camps but everybody wants to know it reminded me of my wants to know it reminded me of my wants to know it reminded me of my childhood and what was taught at the childhood and what was taught at the childhood and what was taught at the church I grew up yeah yeah um and so I I church I grew up yeah yeah um and so I I church I grew up yeah yeah um and so I I think I think what surprised me is how think I think what surprised me is how think I think what surprised me is how the idea of taking Revelation 20 more the idea of taking Revelation 20 more the idea of taking Revelation 20 more literally uh which Revelation 21-6 has literally uh which Revelation 21-6 has literally uh which Revelation 21-6 has to be the most disgusted scripture in to be the most disgusted scripture in to be the most disgusted scripture in all all of history right uh and and but

all all of history right uh and and but all all of history right uh and and but but feeling at peace when I said okay but feeling at peace when I said okay but feeling at peace when I said okay I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to give it a go taking it I'm going to give it a go taking it I'm going to give it a go taking it literally and I know that we don't have literally and I know that we don't have literally and I know that we don't have a whole hour to talk about that topic a whole hour to talk about that topic a whole hour to talk about that topic but there is one little nugget that I but there is one little nugget that I but there is one little nugget that I think all of us all of your listeners I think all of us all of your listeners I think all of us all of your listeners I think you might appreciate I was think you might appreciate I was think you might appreciate I was studying through the Book of Daniel studying through the Book of Daniel studying through the Book of Daniel about 10 years ago with our church and I about 10 years ago with our church and I about 10 years ago with our church and I came to Daniel chapter n which as we all came to Daniel chapter n which as we all came to Daniel chapter n which as we all know is a beautiful beautiful prayer in know is a beautiful beautiful prayer in know is a beautiful beautiful prayer in which Daniel prays for the children of which Daniel prays for the children of which Daniel prays for the children of Israel to be returned out of Babylonian Israel to be returned out of Babylonian Israel to be returned out of Babylonian captivity ity to Israel and um uh captivity ity to Israel and um uh captivity ity to Israel and um uh Gabriel comes and tells him you know Gabriel comes and tells him you know Gabriel comes and tells him you know your prayer has been heard I've been your prayer has been heard I've been your prayer has been heard I've been wrestling anyway that's a such a wrestling anyway that's a such a wrestling anyway that's a such a beautiful story and um uh uh one of the beautiful story and um uh uh one of the beautiful story and um uh uh one of the commentaries I was reading pointed out commentaries I was reading pointed out commentaries I was reading pointed out that Daniel was probably in year that Daniel was probably in year that Daniel was probably in year 67 of his 70 of the 70th 70 years of 67 of his 70 of the 70th 70 years of 67 of his 70 of the 70th 70 years of captivity and uh he pointed out that captivity and uh he pointed out that captivity and uh he pointed out that Daniel saw the Fulfillment of Jeremiah's Daniel saw the Fulfillment of Jeremiah's Daniel saw the Fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy Jeremiah had prophesied that prophecy Jeremiah had prophesied that prophecy Jeremiah had prophesied that the children of Israel will be in the children of Israel will be in the children of Israel will be in captivity for 70 years so here this is captivity for 70 years so here this is captivity for 70 years so here this is what I thought was really interesting what I thought was really interesting what I thought was really interesting here you have a prophet reflecting on here you have a prophet reflecting on here you have a prophet reflecting on the words of a prophet and interpreting the words of a prophet and interpreting the words of a prophet and interpreting a a a prophecy and when Daniel interpreted prophecy and when Daniel interpreted prophecy and when Daniel interpreted Jeremiah's 70-year prophecy and he saw Jeremiah's 70-year prophecy and he saw Jeremiah's 70-year prophecy and he saw the 70 years coming to an end he took the 70 years coming to an end he took the 70 years coming to an end he took that number literally as I mentioned I I

that number literally as I mentioned I I that number literally as I mentioned I I come out of an OM IAL background so I come out of an OM IAL background so I come out of an OM IAL background so I was taught and trained to really view was taught and trained to really view was taught and trained to really view the Thousand-Year Reign to a figurative the Thousand-Year Reign to a figurative the Thousand-Year Reign to a figurative or metaphorical lens and I'm okay with or metaphorical lens and I'm okay with or metaphorical lens and I'm okay with that brothers and S yeah I was gonna say that brothers and S yeah I was gonna say that brothers and S yeah I was gonna say that's probably the dominant I'm in a that's probably the dominant I'm in a that's probably the dominant I'm in a now but one of the one of the AHA now but one of the one of the AHA now but one of the one of the AHA moments and there were several but one moments and there were several but one moments and there were several but one of them was well what would Daniel do of them was well what would Daniel do of them was well what would Daniel do with Revelation chapter 20 if he took 70 with Revelation chapter 20 if he took 70 with Revelation chapter 20 if he took 70 years literally I wonder if he would years literally I wonder if he would years literally I wonder if he would take thousand years literally and that take thousand years literally and that take thousand years literally and that launched me on a a kind of a fresh launched me on a a kind of a fresh launched me on a a kind of a fresh thought process uh Carrie uh that led me thought process uh Carrie uh that led me thought process uh Carrie uh that led me to get excited about this idea of to get excited about this idea of to get excited about this idea of reigning and ruling with Christ for reigning and ruling with Christ for reigning and ruling with Christ for literally a thousand years on Earth just literally a thousand years on Earth just literally a thousand years on Earth just a little tidbit of information I think a little tidbit of information I think a little tidbit of information I think I'm certainly hoping hoping that this I'm certainly hoping hoping that this I'm certainly hoping hoping that this isn't the millennial because if it is isn't the millennial because if it is isn't the millennial because if it is I'm pretty disappointed that's another I'm pretty disappointed that's another I'm pretty disappointed that's another thing you know the beauty of the thing you know the beauty of the thing you know the beauty of the Thousand-Year Reign is Christ will be Thousand-Year Reign is Christ will be Thousand-Year Reign is Christ will be crowned uh Satan will be kicked out and crowned uh Satan will be kicked out and crowned uh Satan will be kicked out and we'll be reigning and ruling with Christ we'll be reigning and ruling with Christ we'll be reigning and ruling with Christ uh I can't wait to see Satan tossed in uh I can't wait to see Satan tossed in uh I can't wait to see Satan tossed in into that bottomless pit so uh yeah I into that bottomless pit so uh yeah I into that bottomless pit so uh yeah I don't think so the book's coming out as don't think so the book's coming out as don't think so the book's coming out as we speak like as this episode is we speak like as this episode is we speak like as this episode is released but you had the Good Fortune of released but you had the Good Fortune of released but you had the Good Fortune of uh preaching it to a live audience over uh preaching it to a live audience over uh preaching it to a live audience over multiple weeks were there particular multiple weeks were there particular multiple weeks were there particular points you've said overall people are points you've said overall people are points you've said overall people are really grateful not a lot of teaching on really grateful not a lot of teaching on really grateful not a lot of teaching on this it's the time we live in were there this it's the time we live in were there this it's the time we live in were there particular notes that you saw really particular notes that you saw really particular notes that you saw really struck a struck a struck a chord Paradise teaching on Paradise and

chord Paradise teaching on Paradise and chord Paradise teaching on Paradise and this this can be this this can be this this can be taught regardless of your end times taught regardless of your end times taught regardless of your end times perspective because the question is perspective because the question is perspective because the question is where did my mother go when she died and where did my mother go when she died and where did my mother go when she died and when I taught on Paradise what the thief when I taught on Paradise what the thief when I taught on Paradise what the thief said to the Jesus said to the thief on said to the Jesus said to the thief on said to the Jesus said to the thief on the cross today you'll be with me in the cross today you'll be with me in the cross today you'll be with me in paradise and John Wesley said that paradise and John Wesley said that paradise and John Wesley said that paradise is the front porch of Heaven paradise is the front porch of Heaven paradise is the front porch of Heaven which is to say it's not quite heaven which is to say it's not quite heaven which is to say it's not quite heaven but it's lot a lot like heaven oh my but it's lot a lot like heaven oh my but it's lot a lot like heaven oh my goodness people were coming up to me goodness people were coming up to me goodness people were coming up to me with tears in their eyes uh I I heard with tears in their eyes uh I I heard with tears in their eyes uh I I heard people weeping in the service just the people weeping in the service just the people weeping in the service just the relief just the joy I talked about even relief just the joy I talked about even relief just the joy I talked about even The Unborn children uh leave the womb The Unborn children uh leave the womb The Unborn children uh leave the womb and go straight into the arms of God in and go straight into the arms of God in and go straight into the arms of God in Paradise I talked about uh the rich man Paradise I talked about uh the rich man Paradise I talked about uh the rich man in Lazarus and how Lazarus was taken in Lazarus and how Lazarus was taken in Lazarus and how Lazarus was taken into Abraham's bosom for for healing of into Abraham's bosom for for healing of into Abraham's bosom for for healing of the the the wounds um that's the sermon that I if if wounds um that's the sermon that I if if wounds um that's the sermon that I if if somebody wants me to come and preach at somebody wants me to come and preach at somebody wants me to come and preach at your church I shouldn't have said that your church I shouldn't have said that your church I shouldn't have said that if change your email change your email if change your email change your email if change your email change your email Max Mya no if I if I have a go-to sermon Max Mya no if I if I have a go-to sermon Max Mya no if I if I have a go-to sermon now on end times it'll be paradise I I I now on end times it'll be paradise I I I now on end times it'll be paradise I I I I love the thought that we're I love the thought that we're I love the thought that we're immediately and and and exploring the immediately and and and exploring the immediately and and and exploring the great cloud of witnesses Carri you know great cloud of witnesses Carri you know great cloud of witnesses Carri you know your your parents or grandparents or your your parents or grandparents or your your parents or grandparents or aunts and uncles people have gone ahead aunts and uncles people have gone ahead aunts and uncles people have gone ahead of you they're pulling for you they're of you they're pulling for you they're of you they're pulling for you they're cheering for you uh it was it was just a cheering for you uh it was it was just a cheering for you uh it was it was just a a beautiful I think it's a beautiful a beautiful I think it's a beautiful a beautiful I think it's a beautiful thought well and you know if you thought well and you know if you thought well and you know if you funerals like I still do from time to

funerals like I still do from time to funerals like I still do from time to time and you hear eulogies of now we're time and you hear eulogies of now we're time and you hear eulogies of now we're largely on Church culture here in Canada largely on Church culture here in Canada largely on Church culture here in Canada we're several Generations away from we're several Generations away from we're several Generations away from people going to church on a regular people going to church on a regular people going to church on a regular basis so sometimes you get the uncle who basis so sometimes you get the uncle who basis so sometimes you get the uncle who doesn't go to church giving a a eulogy doesn't go to church giving a a eulogy doesn't go to church giving a a eulogy and it's the the Theology of the and it's the the Theology of the and it's the the Theology of the afterlife is just so awful it's like I'm afterlife is just so awful it's like I'm afterlife is just so awful it's like I'm sure he's up in the sky playing golf sure he's up in the sky playing golf sure he's up in the sky playing golf right and I know you love golf Max but right and I know you love golf Max but right and I know you love golf Max but you probably think Heaven is more than you probably think Heaven is more than you probably think Heaven is more than just a good golf game I hope you know just a good golf game I hope you know just a good golf game I hope you know know like and people really don't know know like and people really don't know know like and people really don't know so that that really resonates and I I so that that really resonates and I I so that that really resonates and I I kind of started choking up a little bit kind of started choking up a little bit kind of started choking up a little bit while you were describing because the while you were describing because the while you were describing because the last two sermons of two funerals I've last two sermons of two funerals I've last two sermons of two funerals I've officiated I've pulled out that sermon officiated I've pulled out that sermon officiated I've pulled out that sermon on Paradise oh and and it it people just on Paradise oh and and it it people just on Paradise oh and and it it people just gobble because you're right they don't gobble because you're right they don't gobble because you're right they don't know they just don't know this big void know they just don't know this big void know they just don't know this big void this yeah we going to float on clouds this yeah we going to float on clouds this yeah we going to float on clouds you know I I you know I didn't even know you know I I you know I didn't even know you know I I you know I didn't even know this I dug into it I found out that the this I dug into it I found out that the this I dug into it I found out that the that the you know Greek word for that the you know Greek word for that the you know Greek word for paradise in the in the first century paradise in the in the first century paradise in the in the first century carried with it the idea of a Wallin carried with it the idea of a Wallin carried with it the idea of a Wallin Garden a real garden and that probably Garden a real garden and that probably Garden a real garden and that probably uh when people heard the word Paradise uh when people heard the word Paradise uh when people heard the word Paradise in the days of the you know Church in the days of the you know Church in the days of the you know Church fathers they they were thinking of the fathers they they were thinking of the fathers they they were thinking of the Garden of Eden they weren't thinking of Garden of Eden they weren't thinking of Garden of Eden they weren't thinking of someplace you know that uh where you sit someplace you know that uh where you sit someplace you know that uh where you sit on clouds they were really in a garden on clouds they were really in a garden on clouds they were really in a garden anyway you'll get me talking preaching anyway you'll get me talking preaching anyway you'll get me talking preaching the whole sermon if I'm not careful no the whole sermon if I'm not careful no the whole sermon if I'm not careful no that's good though hey uh one more that's good though hey uh one more that's good though hey uh one more question on on it and I would encourage question on on it and I would encourage question on on it and I would encourage people to pick up the book it's it's

people to pick up the book it's it's people to pick up the book it's it's super instructive on a number of things super instructive on a number of things super instructive on a number of things but you know obviously you're sitting but you know obviously you're sitting but you know obviously you're sitting there working on this for a year or so there working on this for a year or so there working on this for a year or so you've got commentar spread all over the you've got commentar spread all over the you've got commentar spread all over the place you're back into the original place you're back into the original place you're back into the original languages and yet I thought you did a languages and yet I thought you did a languages and yet I thought you did a masterful job of making an masterful job of making an masterful job of making an incredibly incredibly incredibly complicated topic understandable without complicated topic understandable without complicated topic understandable without dumbing it down do you have any advice dumbing it down do you have any advice dumbing it down do you have any advice for those of us who want to engage in a for those of us who want to engage in a for those of us who want to engage in a similar thing to make things simple similar thing to make things simple similar thing to make things simple without being without being without being simplistic uh what what helped you do simplistic uh what what helped you do simplistic uh what what helped you do that that's very kind of you to say that that's very kind of you to say that that's very kind of you to say Carrie I'll live off of that compliment Carrie I'll live off of that compliment Carrie I'll live off of that compliment for about three weeks good well it was for about three weeks good well it was for about three weeks good well it was recognizably Max Luc it wasn't like all recognizably Max Luc it wasn't like all recognizably Max Luc it wasn't like all of a sudden Professor Max came out you of a sudden Professor Max came out you of a sudden Professor Max came out you know no we're we're going to parse the know no we're we're going to parse the know no we're we're going to parse the verbs like it wasn't that yeah and that verbs like it wasn't that yeah and that verbs like it wasn't that yeah and that is a challenge that we have um I I love is a challenge that we have um I I love is a challenge that we have um I I love study I love commentaries and yet the study I love commentaries and yet the study I love commentaries and yet the again as we pointed down people in our again as we pointed down people in our again as we pointed down people in our church parked a truck the night before church parked a truck the night before church parked a truck the night before they they have let's go to Taco Bell they they have let's go to Taco Bell they they have let's go to Taco Bell they have no clue who elad is or what they have no clue who elad is or what they have no clue who elad is or what these terms mean so I'm not serving the these terms mean so I'm not serving the these terms mean so I'm not serving the church if I try to uh impress them with church if I try to uh impress them with church if I try to uh impress them with what I know so here here's what I did what I know so here here's what I did what I know so here here's what I did this time okay I um I formed a cohort of this time okay I um I formed a cohort of this time okay I um I formed a cohort of pastors on our staff and four four pastors on our staff and four four pastors on our staff and four four people and uh I think people and uh I think people and uh I think three three had have advanced degrees

three three had have advanced degrees three three had have advanced degrees really great great students really good really great great students really good really great great students really good Scholars really smarter than I am two of Scholars really smarter than I am two of Scholars really smarter than I am two of them are um one one sells Insurance uh them are um one one sells Insurance uh them are um one one sells Insurance uh not a pastor on our chch he attends our not a pastor on our chch he attends our not a pastor on our chch he attends our church and one of them's just very church and one of them's just very church and one of them's just very active and so I I formed this group of active and so I I formed this group of active and so I I formed this group of five or six people and I would send the five or six people and I would send the five or six people and I would send the sermon to them and I would say share sermon to them and I would say share sermon to them and I would say share this with uh your spouse your friends this with uh your spouse your friends this with uh your spouse your friends your small group of course read it your small group of course read it your small group of course read it yourself and we come back together every yourself and we come back together every yourself and we come back together every Thursday at 10:00 a.m. and and pick it Thursday at 10:00 a.m. and and pick it Thursday at 10:00 a.m. and and pick it out you know where did where did I lose out you know where did where did I lose out you know where did where did I lose you where did I help you where did you you where did I help you where did you you where did I help you where did you see people's eyes glass over help me see people's eyes glass over help me see people's eyes glass over help me help me connect um help me connect in help me connect um help me connect in help me connect um help me connect in language that works with illustrations language that works with illustrations language that works with illustrations that work and and that was extremely that work and and that was extremely that work and and that was extremely extremely helpful um because a couple of extremely helpful um because a couple of extremely helpful um because a couple of the messages I did they were too the messages I did they were too the messages I did they were too technical they were just too technical technical they were just too technical technical they were just too technical there was no take-home there was no take-home there was no take-home uh and so I I I would encourage people uh and so I I I would encourage people uh and so I I I would encourage people to try that maybe so did you do that pre to try that maybe so did you do that pre to try that maybe so did you do that pre or post delivering pre I apologize I or post delivering pre I apologize I or post delivering pre I apologize I apologize yes I would do that I I really apologize yes I would do that I I really apologize yes I would do that I I really got ahead of this sermon series I got ahead of this sermon series I got ahead of this sermon series I started preaching it in September of started preaching it in September of started preaching it in September of 2023 I finished it in Thanksgiving of 2023 I finished it in Thanksgiving of 2023 I finished it in Thanksgiving of 2023 but I started sharing those 2023 but I started sharing those 2023 but I started sharing those messages in June of 2023 once one a week messages in June of 2023 once one a week messages in June of 2023 once one a week I'm not usually that far in advance but I'm not usually that far in advance but I'm not usually that far in advance but I knew this was going to be a tough I knew this was going to be a tough I knew this was going to be a tough topic topic topic and so I I wanted to get way out ahead and so I I wanted to get way out ahead and so I I wanted to get way out ahead of it good for you good for you I think

of it good for you good for you I think of it good for you good for you I think that's very very wise so a lot of the that's very very wise so a lot of the that's very very wise so a lot of the editing was done before the sermon editing was done before the sermon editing was done before the sermon dropped not after yeah everybody was dropped not after yeah everybody was dropped not after yeah everybody was speaking into it and trimming it down speaking into it and trimming it down speaking into it and trimming it down saying this doesn't work and then we had saying this doesn't work and then we had saying this doesn't work and then we had some pretty vigorous discussions about a some pretty vigorous discussions about a some pretty vigorous discussions about a variety of things um it it the last variety of things um it it the last variety of things um it it the last thing I'll I'll talk as long as you want thing I'll I'll talk as long as you want thing I'll I'll talk as long as you want to but I I will say uh all my years of to but I I will say uh all my years of to but I I will say uh all my years of preaching nothing depresses me more than preaching nothing depresses me more than preaching nothing depresses me more than preaching about preaching about preaching about hell it's just heaviest topic it's the hell it's just heaviest topic it's the hell it's just heaviest topic it's the heaviest topic the worst I've really heaviest topic the worst I've really heaviest topic the worst I've really wrestled with annihilationism I've wrestled with annihilationism I've wrestled with annihilationism I've really wrestled with eternal punishment really wrestled with eternal punishment really wrestled with eternal punishment and so it's anybody who can preach about and so it's anybody who can preach about and so it's anybody who can preach about hell with a Cavalier Spirit hasn't hell with a Cavalier Spirit hasn't hell with a Cavalier Spirit hasn't studied it much I think studied it much I think studied it much I think because and yet our Lord talked about it because and yet our Lord talked about it because and yet our Lord talked about it he did he talked about the Eternal he did he talked about the Eternal he did he talked about the Eternal Destiny of people who reject him Destiny of people who reject him Destiny of people who reject him so what was your again you know this a so what was your again you know this a so what was your again you know this a complicated question I brought it up complicated question I brought it up complicated question I brought it up didn't I you brought it up you brought didn't I you brought it up you brought didn't I you brought it up you brought it up what was your angle it up what was your angle it up what was your angle take uh what what helped you deliver take uh what what helped you deliver take uh what what helped you deliver that message in a way that you felt was that message in a way that you felt was that message in a way that you felt was both faithful and not callous can I put both faithful and not callous can I put both faithful and not callous can I put it that way because that feels like you it that way because that feels like you it that way because that feels like you Faithful not Faithful not Faithful not callous it it um again people interpret callous it it um again people interpret callous it it um again people interpret revelation differently um great white revelation differently um great white revelation differently um great white Throne judgment is it seems to me where Throne judgment is it seems to me where Throne judgment is it seems to me where people who have rejected God uh will

people who have rejected God uh will people who have rejected God uh will appear before him for that judgment and appear before him for that judgment and appear before him for that judgment and their name will not be found in the book their name will not be found in the book their name will not be found in the book of life and it's just such a terrible of life and it's just such a terrible of life and it's just such a terrible terrible thing what I kept terrible thing what I kept terrible thing what I kept emphasizing is that hell is not a place emphasizing is that hell is not a place emphasizing is that hell is not a place for those who have sought God and for those who have sought God and for those who have sought God and struggled it is a place where those who struggled it is a place where those who struggled it is a place where those who have rebelled against God will have that have rebelled against God will have that have rebelled against God will have that choice choice choice honored I think that's a key honored I think that's a key honored I think that's a key clarification um when I preached on it clarification um when I preached on it clarification um when I preached on it that's how I've I've basically handled that's how I've I've basically handled that's how I've I've basically handled it as well and it's it's just so hard it as well and it's it's just so hard it as well and it's it's just so hard and it's so hard I think also we have to and it's so hard I think also we have to and it's so hard I think also we have to ultimately say the definition and ultimately say the definition and ultimately say the definition and duration of hell is God's call not mine duration of hell is God's call not mine duration of hell is God's call not mine I know emotionally I hope everybody's I know emotionally I hope everybody's I know emotionally I hope everybody's just annihilated I'll just say that I just annihilated I'll just say that I just annihilated I'll just say that I know I'll get letters for that but know I'll get letters for that but know I'll get letters for that but emotionally I I don't know anybody who emotionally I I don't know anybody who emotionally I I don't know anybody who could have a good heart and not hope could have a good heart and not hope could have a good heart and not hope that's the case But ultimately it's that's the case But ultimately it's that's the case But ultimately it's God's call they didn't sin against me God's call they didn't sin against me God's call they didn't sin against me they didn't reject me and so I have to they didn't reject me and so I have to they didn't reject me and so I have to uh submit that into the care of our uh submit that into the care of our uh submit that into the care of our loving and gracious and good heavenly loving and gracious and good heavenly loving and gracious and good heavenly father I don't know why he's letting me father I don't know why he's letting me father I don't know why he's letting me into heaven talk about fairness it's not fair heaven talk about fairness it's not fair that I go into heaven and so for that that I go into heaven and so for that that I go into heaven and so for that I'm immensely overwhelmingly grateful um I'm immensely overwhelmingly grateful um I'm immensely overwhelmingly grateful um but I do think that's a topic that um but I do think that's a topic that um but I do think that's a topic that um some preachers shy away from some PR some preachers shy away from some PR some preachers shy away from some PR preachers overdo finding that balance is preachers overdo finding that balance is preachers overdo finding that balance is important it really is and you know what important it really is and you know what important it really is and you know what thank you for doing the Deep work on thank you for doing the Deep work on thank you for doing the Deep work on that my wife when we were talking about

that my wife when we were talking about that my wife when we were talking about getting ready for this interview uh getting ready for this interview uh getting ready for this interview uh somewhere in the garage in a tote I've somewhere in the garage in a tote I've somewhere in the garage in a tote I've got a 22 week series on CD I think on got a 22 week series on CD I think on got a 22 week series on CD I think on the Book of Revelation did 22 weeks on the Book of Revelation did 22 weeks on the Book of Revelation did 22 weeks on Revelation and uh you know some others Revelation and uh you know some others Revelation and uh you know some others as well and it's just reminded me at as well and it's just reminded me at as well and it's just reminded me at some point I want to revisit all that some point I want to revisit all that some point I want to revisit all that and your book is a is a great way to and your book is a is a great way to and your book is a is a great way to sort of dive back into that topic it's sort of dive back into that topic it's sort of dive back into that topic it's called what happens next and uh I just called what happens next and uh I just called what happens next and uh I just want to thank you for it so it's want to thank you for it so it's want to thank you for it so it's available everywhere probably today you available everywhere probably today you available everywhere probably today you can pre-order it or order it I think can pre-order it or order it I think can pre-order it or order it I think it's coming out right around now uh max it's coming out right around now uh max it's coming out right around now uh max if people want to track with you online if people want to track with you online if people want to track with you online where's the easiest place to find you where's the easiest place to find you where's the easiest place to find you these days I'm not going to tell them these days I'm not going to tell them these days I'm not going to tell them now not after what I CH no no no not now not after what I CH no no no not now not after what I CH no no no not your email just you have your website your email just you have your website your email just you have your website social media don't DM Max preach my social media don't DM Max preach my social media don't DM Max preach my church be right back to where you were church be right back to where you were church be right back to where you were in your 30s on airplanes every other day in your 30s on airplanes every other day in your 30s on airplanes every other day that's right no that's not going to that's right no that's not going to that's right no that's not going to happen yeah U Max l.com max.com and and happen yeah U Max l.com max.com and and happen yeah U Max l.com max.com and and and uh and Carrie uh thank you beyond and uh and Carrie uh thank you beyond and uh and Carrie uh thank you beyond words for this opportunity thank you and words for this opportunity thank you and words for this opportunity thank you and forgive me if any if I misspoke anywhere forgive me if any if I misspoke anywhere forgive me if any if I misspoke anywhere and and all your listeners forgive me if and and all your listeners forgive me if and and all your listeners forgive me if I if you ever find a I'm like you guys I if you ever find a I'm like you guys I if you ever find a I'm like you guys I'm just doing my best my sleeves are I'm just doing my best my sleeves are I'm just doing my best my sleeves are still rolled up my knees are still bent still rolled up my knees are still bent still rolled up my knees are still bent my eyes are still upward and we're we're my eyes are still upward and we're we're my eyes are still upward and we're we're going to finish strong we're going to going to finish strong we're going to going to finish strong we're going to finish strong and I pray a blessing on finish strong and I pray a blessing on finish strong and I pray a blessing on all your listeners today oh Max I all your listeners today oh Max I all your listeners today oh Max I appreciate that I so appreciate you and appreciate that I so appreciate you and appreciate that I so appreciate you and I can't tell you how much I enjoy our

I can't tell you how much I enjoy our I can't tell you how much I enjoy our conversations thank you thank you