Matt Chandler on the Death of Secularism

It also seems that God is judging the It also seems that God is judging the charismatic movement right now. charismatic movement right now. charismatic movement right now. >> Uh I mean you look who are their heroes? >> Uh I mean you look who are their heroes? >> Uh I mean you look who are their heroes? They're like falling one after another. They're like falling one after another. They're like falling one after another. Like all the big flagships Like all the big flagships Like all the big flagships uh right it seems God is uh right it seems God is uh right it seems God is >> Yeah, you're right. >> Yeah, you're right. >> Yeah, you're right. >> Their sins have found them out. The >> Their sins have found them out. The >> Their sins have found them out. The movements slow. I think God's making a movements slow. I think God's making a movements slow. I think God's making a way for true convergence, true spirit way for true convergence, true spirit way for true convergence, true spirit and word churches. and word churches. and word churches. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. I hope this episode joined us today. I hope this episode joined us today. I hope this episode helps you thrive in life and leadership. helps you thrive in life and leadership. helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, it should because Matt Chandler is Well, it should because Matt Chandler is Well, it should because Matt Chandler is back on the podcast. We talk about why back on the podcast. We talk about why back on the podcast. We talk about why pastors shouldn't wear capes, why he's pastors shouldn't wear capes, why he's pastors shouldn't wear capes, why he's becoming more transparent about the ups becoming more transparent about the ups becoming more transparent about the ups and downs of his spiritual journey and and downs of his spiritual journey and and downs of his spiritual journey and also leadership the older he gets. We're also leadership the older he gets. We're also leadership the older he gets. We're going to talk about the death of going to talk about the death of going to talk about the death of secularism and what that means for the secularism and what that means for the secularism and what that means for the church and what happens when the [music] church and what happens when the [music] church and what happens when the [music] church is all wood and no fire. When church is all wood and no fire. When church is all wood and no fire. When it's all doctrine but no Holy Spirit. it's all doctrine but no Holy Spirit. it's all doctrine but no Holy Spirit. Matt kind of had a conversion Matt kind of had a conversion Matt kind of had a conversion experience, not a Christian conversion, experience, not a Christian conversion, experience, not a Christian conversion, but a conversion of the Holy Spirit back but a conversion of the Holy Spirit back but a conversion of the Holy Spirit back in 2017. [music] We're going to talk in 2017. [music] We're going to talk in 2017. [music] We're going to talk about how that's showing up in the life about how that's showing up in the life about how that's showing up in the life of the Village Church and a whole lot of the Village Church and a whole lot of the Village Church and a whole lot more. So, welcome. For those of you who more. So, welcome. For those of you who more. So, welcome. For those of you who are brand new, we are so glad you joined are brand new, we are so glad you joined are brand new, we are so glad you joined us. One of the best ways you can make us. One of the best ways you can make us. One of the best ways you can make sure you never miss an episode and also sure you never miss an episode and also sure you never miss an episode and also support this show is by hitting the support this show is by hitting the support this show is by hitting the follow button wherever you are follow button wherever you are follow button wherever you are listening, wherever you're watching.

listening, wherever you're watching. listening, wherever you're watching. Because when you do that, the algorithm Because when you do that, the algorithm Because when you do that, the algorithm has a way of making sure you never miss has a way of making sure you never miss has a way of making sure you never miss an episode. Matt Chandler has served as an episode. Matt Chandler has served as an episode. Matt Chandler has served as a lead pastor of the Village Church in a lead pastor of the Village Church in a lead pastor of the Village Church in Dallas Fort Worth for over 20 years and Dallas Fort Worth for over 20 years and Dallas Fort Worth for over 20 years and is the executive chairman of Acts 29, a is the executive chairman of Acts 29, a is the executive chairman of Acts 29, a global church planting network. He is an global church planting network. He is an global church planting network. He is an author, he is a husband, and he is a author, he is a husband, and he is a author, he is a husband, and he is a leader of leaders. And now my leader of leaders. And now my leader of leaders. And now my conversation with Matt Chandler. Matt, conversation with Matt Chandler. Matt, conversation with Matt Chandler. Matt, it's just great to be back. We're it's just great to be back. We're it's just great to be back. We're catching up on our schedules. You're in catching up on our schedules. You're in catching up on our schedules. You're in a sprint right now, man. a sprint right now, man. a sprint right now, man. >> Man, I am. All of life can't look like >> Man, I am. All of life can't look like >> Man, I am. All of life can't look like this, but if you've got a season, um I'm this, but if you've got a season, um I'm this, but if you've got a season, um I'm I'm just in that season. And so I think I'm just in that season. And so I think I'm just in that season. And so I think I prepared for it well and I'm headed to I prepared for it well and I'm headed to I prepared for it well and I'm headed to a finish line here in just a you know, a a finish line here in just a you know, a a finish line here in just a you know, a few weeks and I'll cross that threshold few weeks and I'll cross that threshold few weeks and I'll cross that threshold and replenish and I'm already eager for and replenish and I'm already eager for and replenish and I'm already eager for that. that. that. >> One of one of the things that made it a >> One of one of the things that made it a >> One of one of the things that made it a sprint, you've got some international sprint, you've got some international sprint, you've got some international travel. You've you've travel. You've you've travel. You've you've >> uh you you Luke Lef Fever and John Tyson >> uh you you Luke Lef Fever and John Tyson >> uh you you Luke Lef Fever and John Tyson were by and so this has been a repeating were by and so this has been a repeating were by and so this has been a repeating theme on the podcast. They both talked theme on the podcast. They both talked theme on the podcast. They both talked about it here, about it here, about it here, but you did uh an event involving the but you did uh an event involving the but you did uh an event involving the Holy Spirit, part of that revival Holy Spirit, part of that revival Holy Spirit, part of that revival framework that Luke talked about, you framework that Luke talked about, you framework that Luke talked about, you know, dozens of episodes ago on this know, dozens of episodes ago on this know, dozens of episodes ago on this show about getting a vision from God show about getting a vision from God show about getting a vision from God that God was going to move powerfully that God was going to move powerfully that God was going to move powerfully >> in three churches in America and one of >> in three churches in America and one of >> in three churches in America and one of them was the village.

them was the village. them was the village. >> So tell us a little bit about um what >> So tell us a little bit about um what >> So tell us a little bit about um what led up to that, what happened and what led up to that, what happened and what led up to that, what happened and what you experienced. you experienced. you experienced. >> Yeah. Well, I I think really starting >> Yeah. Well, I I think really starting >> Yeah. Well, I I think really starting I'd probably have to go back to 2017 I'd probably have to go back to 2017 I'd probably have to go back to 2017 for a shift in emphasis uh at the for a shift in emphasis uh at the for a shift in emphasis uh at the Village Church. Um not not a shift in Village Church. Um not not a shift in Village Church. Um not not a shift in doctrine or theology, none of that's doctrine or theology, none of that's doctrine or theology, none of that's changed. changed. changed. >> Uh we have not tweaked any of our >> Uh we have not tweaked any of our >> Uh we have not tweaked any of our original documents theologically. original documents theologically. original documents theologically. >> Um but we we certainly weren't >> Um but we we certainly weren't >> Um but we we certainly weren't practicing all that we said we believed. practicing all that we said we believed. practicing all that we said we believed. Uh and so starting in 2017 um we started Uh and so starting in 2017 um we started Uh and so starting in 2017 um we started to just shift emphasis a little bit more to just shift emphasis a little bit more to just shift emphasis a little bit more towards power, presence, prayer, those towards power, presence, prayer, those towards power, presence, prayer, those kinds of ideas like the doctrinal logs kinds of ideas like the doctrinal logs kinds of ideas like the doctrinal logs were in place and we just wanted a match were in place and we just wanted a match were in place and we just wanted a match to fall from heaven. So you know you to fall from heaven. So you know you to fall from heaven. So you know you you'll hear me say frequently now we had you'll hear me say frequently now we had you'll hear me say frequently now we had a lot of wood and not as much fire. uh a lot of wood and not as much fire. uh a lot of wood and not as much fire. uh and we don't really have any matches and and we don't really have any matches and and we don't really have any matches and and so we begin to really seek the Lord and so we begin to really seek the Lord and so we begin to really seek the Lord >> uh in a variety of ways uh asking him to >> uh in a variety of ways uh asking him to >> uh in a variety of ways uh asking him to do a significant and serious work. We do a significant and serious work. We do a significant and serious work. We begin to begin to say things like uh begin to begin to say things like uh begin to begin to say things like uh there's a move of God going on and I there's a move of God going on and I there's a move of God going on and I don't want us to watch it on YouTube.

don't want us to watch it on YouTube. don't want us to watch it on YouTube. Like I that can't be what we do. If Like I that can't be what we do. If Like I that can't be what we do. If God's going to pour out his spirit in God's going to pour out his spirit in God's going to pour out his spirit in our day in a unique way, it I will have our day in a unique way, it I will have our day in a unique way, it I will have failed you if when we're in our 70s, we failed you if when we're in our 70s, we failed you if when we're in our 70s, we talk about watching that on YouTube. So, talk about watching that on YouTube. So, talk about watching that on YouTube. So, the goal here is to avail ourselves to the goal here is to avail ourselves to the goal here is to avail ourselves to the Lord in whatever way we can and say, the Lord in whatever way we can and say, the Lord in whatever way we can and say, "We want all that you have for us in "We want all that you have for us in "We want all that you have for us in this day." And if you have to tear this this day." And if you have to tear this this day." And if you have to tear this thing down to the studs, tear it down to thing down to the studs, tear it down to thing down to the studs, tear it down to the studs. move anyone out, move anyone the studs. move anyone out, move anyone the studs. move anyone out, move anyone in. We want you. We We're going to be in. We want you. We We're going to be in. We want you. We We're going to be Psalm 27:4. One thing I ask of the Lord, Psalm 27:4. One thing I ask of the Lord, Psalm 27:4. One thing I ask of the Lord, all that I seek is that I might dwell in all that I seek is that I might dwell in all that I seek is that I might dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my the house of the Lord all the days of my the house of the Lord all the days of my life to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord life to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord life to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord and to seek him in his temple. So, we and to seek him in his temple. So, we and to seek him in his temple. So, we just started orienting around that back just started orienting around that back just started orienting around that back in 2018. And then really building a in 2018. And then really building a in 2018. And then really building a culture of prayer, building expectation culture of prayer, building expectation culture of prayer, building expectation that God could move in a profound way that God could move in a profound way that God could move in a profound way among us that that wasn't as much kind among us that that wasn't as much kind among us that that wasn't as much kind of an intellectual thing as a power of an intellectual thing as a power of an intellectual thing as a power thing in our souls. And and then we thing in our souls. And and then we thing in our souls. And and then we started having little breakouts of it, started having little breakouts of it, started having little breakouts of it, like little pop fires, spot fires is like little pop fires, spot fires is like little pop fires, spot fires is what I would call them from the stage what I would call them from the stage what I would call them from the stage where in an all staff meeting, the the where in an all staff meeting, the the where in an all staff meeting, the the Holy Spirit fell in a unique way and Holy Spirit fell in a unique way and Holy Spirit fell in a unique way and like the whole room was weeping and like the whole room was weeping and like the whole room was weeping and confessing and praying and it it wasn't confessing and praying and it it wasn't confessing and praying and it it wasn't even a sermon on those things. Uh I I even a sermon on those things. Uh I I even a sermon on those things. Uh I I didn't even pre it was like an it was didn't even pre it was like an it was didn't even pre it was like an it was Joel Mutamale that come in and talked on Joel Mutamale that come in and talked on Joel Mutamale that come in and talked on humility and man, the Holy Spirit just

humility and man, the Holy Spirit just humility and man, the Holy Spirit just fell in power. So much so that I had key fell in power. So much so that I had key fell in power. So much so that I had key staff people going, "What was that? that staff people going, "What was that? that staff people going, "What was that? that that's what we've been praying for. And that's what we've been praying for. And that's what we've been praying for. And then it happened at an elder meeting and then it happened at an elder meeting and then it happened at an elder meeting and and where we we didn't do any business and where we we didn't do any business and where we we didn't do any business that night. We came in with a you know, that night. We came in with a you know, that night. We came in with a you know, you were a pastor. I mean, you you you were a pastor. I mean, you you you were a pastor. I mean, you you always got more on that thing than always got more on that thing than always got more on that thing than you're ever going to tackle. The work's you're ever going to tackle. The work's you're ever going to tackle. The work's never never never >> and man, we didn't do a thing. Uh we we >> and man, we didn't do a thing. Uh we we >> and man, we didn't do a thing. Uh we we sang two songs. Um our chairman was out. sang two songs. Um our chairman was out. sang two songs. Um our chairman was out. So the guy that was running the meeting, So the guy that was running the meeting, So the guy that was running the meeting, vice chair, started praying, started vice chair, started praying, started vice chair, started praying, started crying while he was praying, confessing crying while he was praying, confessing crying while he was praying, confessing sin. And then for the next three, four sin. And then for the next three, four sin. And then for the next three, four hours, we all just wept and prayed and hours, we all just wept and prayed and hours, we all just wept and prayed and cried and repented. And so then we cried and repented. And so then we cried and repented. And so then we started wondering what will this happen started wondering what will this happen started wondering what will this happen in the gathering. And then last summer, in the gathering. And then last summer, in the gathering. And then last summer, so last July, uh almost a year ago, um so last July, uh almost a year ago, um so last July, uh almost a year ago, um July 13th and 14th, um man, the Holy July 13th and 14th, um man, the Holy July 13th and 14th, um man, the Holy Spirit just fell in a very unique way. Spirit just fell in a very unique way. Spirit just fell in a very unique way. All of our services went hours longer All of our services went hours longer All of our services went hours longer than they were scheduled to. People than they were scheduled to. People than they were scheduled to. People lingered. They didn't want to leave.

lingered. They didn't want to leave. lingered. They didn't want to leave. Again, marked by a lot of weeping, a lot Again, marked by a lot of weeping, a lot Again, marked by a lot of weeping, a lot of confession. And it was like a bubble of confession. And it was like a bubble of confession. And it was like a bubble popped or something. popped or something. popped or something. >> Um and so then we we began to uh you >> Um and so then we we began to uh you >> Um and so then we we began to uh you know, I'm good friends with Luke and know, I'm good friends with Luke and know, I'm good friends with Luke and like a true little brother and um he had like a true little brother and um he had like a true little brother and um he had shared with me, hey, I just got this shared with me, hey, I just got this shared with me, hey, I just got this sense that that maybe the Lord wants to sense that that maybe the Lord wants to sense that that maybe the Lord wants to do this. And so we found these three do this. And so we found these three do this. And so we found these three days uh we already have like three kind days uh we already have like three kind days uh we already have like three kind of we would call them catalytic events of we would call them catalytic events of we would call them catalytic events internally and one of those every year internally and one of those every year internally and one of those every year is this thing called consecrate. So we is this thing called consecrate. So we is this thing called consecrate. So we shifted consecrate from January to shifted consecrate from January to shifted consecrate from January to April. Uh because that's when I could April. Uh because that's when I could April. Uh because that's when I could get Luke, Jenny, John, and me all in the get Luke, Jenny, John, and me all in the get Luke, Jenny, John, and me all in the room at the same time. room at the same time. room at the same time. >> And by that you mean just so everyone's >> And by that you mean just so everyone's >> And by that you mean just so everyone's up to date, Jenny Allen and John Tyson. up to date, Jenny Allen and John Tyson. up to date, Jenny Allen and John Tyson. >> Y got it. And so good friends who I'm >> Y got it. And so good friends who I'm >> Y got it. And so good friends who I'm always out on the road with seeing always out on the road with seeing always out on the road with seeing powerful things and and my my um I would powerful things and and my my um I would powerful things and and my my um I would describe it as being wra, you know, describe it as being wra, you know, describe it as being wra, you know, wrapped up with the Lord is why do you wrapped up with the Lord is why do you wrapped up with the Lord is why do you let me go see these things all over the let me go see these things all over the let me go see these things all over the world and then I'm at home and I'm just world and then I'm at home and I'm just world and then I'm at home and I'm just watching them take notes off of me like watching them take notes off of me like watching them take notes off of me like do that here. Please don't. Please do that here. Please don't. Please do that here. Please don't. Please don't. I mean, you're God. I'm not God.

don't. I mean, you're God. I'm not God. don't. I mean, you're God. I'm not God. Please don't let the external ministry Please don't let the external ministry Please don't let the external ministry of my life outside of the village be of my life outside of the village be of my life outside of the village be profound outpourings of your spirit. And profound outpourings of your spirit. And profound outpourings of your spirit. And and certainly the spirit's present, and certainly the spirit's present, and certainly the spirit's present, right? The spirit's doing things at the right? The spirit's doing things at the right? The spirit's doing things at the village, but I want that same hunger and village, but I want that same hunger and village, but I want that same hunger and that manifest presence [snorts] here that manifest presence [snorts] here that manifest presence [snorts] here with us. This is home. I've been with with us. This is home. I've been with with us. This is home. I've been with these people for a [clears throat] these people for a [clears throat] these people for a [clears throat] quarter of a century. So I'm talking quarter of a century. So I'm talking quarter of a century. So I'm talking watches of the night wrangling with the watches of the night wrangling with the watches of the night wrangling with the Lord. Lord. Lord. >> And so we set consecrate up. We do 247 >> And so we set consecrate up. We do 247 >> And so we set consecrate up. We do 247 prayer here. So we changed the prayer prayer here. So we changed the prayer prayer here. So we changed the prayer wheel so that everybody 247 was praying wheel so that everybody 247 was praying wheel so that everybody 247 was praying for a significant and serious move of for a significant and serious move of for a significant and serious move of God in our day. And so we aimed all the God in our day. And so we aimed all the God in our day. And so we aimed all the cannons at these three days. And that's cannons at these three days. And that's cannons at these three days. And that's what we did for three days. We had what we did for three days. We had what we did for three days. We had morning sessions and evening sessions. morning sessions and evening sessions. morning sessions and evening sessions. We refused to call it a conference. It We refused to call it a conference. It We refused to call it a conference. It was mainly our people. Uh we had leaders was mainly our people. Uh we had leaders was mainly our people. Uh we had leaders fly in, but it was mainly for the fly in, but it was mainly for the fly in, but it was mainly for the village church. And man, I I just wept village church. And man, I I just wept village church. And man, I I just wept through the whole thing, Carrie, just through the whole thing, Carrie, just through the whole thing, Carrie, just thinking, I'm at home. Like, everyone thinking, I'm at home. Like, everyone thinking, I'm at home. Like, everyone who's down there weeping at the altar, I who's down there weeping at the altar, I who's down there weeping at the altar, I I knew their names. I I knew their I knew their names. I I knew their I knew their names. I I knew their stories. I knew probably what was stories. I knew probably what was stories. I knew probably what was drawing them up there. And we just sat drawing them up there. And we just sat drawing them up there. And we just sat in the glory of God for three days. It in the glory of God for three days. It in the glory of God for three days. It was stunning.

was stunning. was stunning. >> H >> H >> H um 2017, um 2017, um 2017, very specific. very specific. very specific. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> What switched? There must have been a >> What switched? There must have been a >> What switched? There must have been a catalytic moment. catalytic moment. catalytic moment. >> Yeah, there was Sam Swarmms. Um he's >> Yeah, there was Sam Swarmms. Um he's >> Yeah, there was Sam Swarmms. Um he's like a I mean I think he's written 30 like a I mean I think he's written 30 like a I mean I think he's written 30 books or something like that. He was books or something like that. He was books or something like that. He was president of ETSs, Evangelical president of ETSs, Evangelical president of ETSs, Evangelical Theological Society. Um he asked me to Theological Society. Um he asked me to Theological Society. Um he asked me to come preach at a conference in Oklahoma come preach at a conference in Oklahoma come preach at a conference in Oklahoma City. Uh I think it was called City. Uh I think it was called City. Uh I think it was called Convergence, Spirit and Truth. And he Convergence, Spirit and Truth. And he Convergence, Spirit and Truth. And he asked me to preach on the sufficiency of asked me to preach on the sufficiency of asked me to preach on the sufficiency of God's word and the whisper of the Holy God's word and the whisper of the Holy God's word and the whisper of the Holy Spirit. I think that was the title he Spirit. I think that was the title he Spirit. I think that was the title he gave me. gave me. gave me. So, I I just started writing the sermon So, I I just started writing the sermon So, I I just started writing the sermon for that and I'm in Thessalonians. Uh, for that and I'm in Thessalonians. Uh, for that and I'm in Thessalonians. Uh, do not quench the spirit. So, I'm just do not quench the spirit. So, I'm just do not quench the spirit. So, I'm just doing word work. I mean, I I didn't buy doing word work. I mean, I I didn't buy doing word work. I mean, I I didn't buy new commentaries. I didn't, you know, new commentaries. I didn't, you know, new commentaries. I didn't, you know, I'm I'm just I'm in Logos. I'm I'm using I'm I'm just I'm in Logos. I'm I'm using I'm I'm just I'm in Logos. I'm I'm using the the stuff that pops up that I've got the the stuff that pops up that I've got the the stuff that pops up that I've got popped up on purpose uh in Logos. And popped up on purpose uh in Logos. And popped up on purpose uh in Logos. And I'm doing word work on quench. And quite I'm doing word work on quench. And quite I'm doing word work on quench. And quite a other quite a few other times that a other quite a few other times that a other quite a few other times that word is translated as neglect. Now I had word is translated as neglect. Now I had word is translated as neglect. Now I had armored myself up pretty good that I'm armored myself up pretty good that I'm armored myself up pretty good that I'm not a man that quenches the spirit. But not a man that quenches the spirit. But not a man that quenches the spirit. But neglect Carrie neglect hit me like a neglect Carrie neglect hit me like a neglect Carrie neglect hit me like a ton. I mean I started weeping. It was ton. I mean I started weeping. It was ton. I mean I started weeping. It was clear that I had neglected because on clear that I had neglected because on clear that I had neglected because on paper on paper we've always there's not paper on paper we've always there's not paper on paper we've always there's not been a day in the life of been a day in the life of been a day in the life of >> Sure. It's not like you were a dual >> Sure. It's not like you were a dual >> Sure. It's not like you were a dual trinitarian.

trinitarian. trinitarian. >> That's right. Um, and I had not made any >> That's right. Um, and I had not made any >> That's right. Um, and I had not made any room for, I had not trained for, we had room for, I had not trained for, we had room for, I had not trained for, we had not made space for, we had not created not made space for, we had not created not made space for, we had not created environments for. So, it was that idea, environments for. So, it was that idea, environments for. So, it was that idea, and I hate this phrase now. I don't want and I hate this phrase now. I don't want and I hate this phrase now. I don't want to, but like that idea of charismatic to, but like that idea of charismatic to, but like that idea of charismatic with a seat belt on, like what who gets with a seat belt on, like what who gets with a seat belt on, like what who gets to decide which doctrines we strap up to decide which doctrines we strap up to decide which doctrines we strap up for and which which doctrines we just for and which which doctrines we just for and which which doctrines we just submit to God's revealed word. Um, and submit to God's revealed word. Um, and submit to God's revealed word. Um, and so I fell under a deep amount of so I fell under a deep amount of so I fell under a deep amount of conviction and felt like the Lord was conviction and felt like the Lord was conviction and felt like the Lord was asking me to publicly repent of that at asking me to publicly repent of that at asking me to publicly repent of that at the conference. And so then I was then I the conference. And so then I was then I the conference. And so then I was then I was like, I I can't burn the ships at a was like, I I can't burn the ships at a was like, I I can't burn the ships at a conference. Can't let the elders of the conference. Can't let the elders of the conference. Can't let the elders of the village and the people of the village village and the people of the village village and the people of the village learn from a conference sermon that I'm learn from a conference sermon that I'm learn from a conference sermon that I'm doing this. So I had to go and kind of doing this. So I had to go and kind of doing this. So I had to go and kind of rep, you know, repent to the elders rep, you know, repent to the elders rep, you know, repent to the elders first, uh, run by them what I needed to first, uh, run by them what I needed to first, uh, run by them what I needed to do and then I went to convergence and do and then I went to convergence and do and then I went to convergence and gave that message and repented at the gave that message and repented at the gave that message and repented at the end. I am a man who has neglected the end. I am a man who has neglected the end. I am a man who has neglected the spirit. My doctrine's correct. My spirit. My doctrine's correct. My spirit. My doctrine's correct. My practice is out of step and and I'm practice is out of step and and I'm practice is out of step and and I'm burning the ships here at this burning the ships here at this burning the ships here at this conference. I will go back. We will lead conference. I will go back. We will lead conference. I will go back. We will lead into this. And then that started it.

into this. And then that started it. into this. And then that started it. That was the G. That's why I know it's That was the G. That's why I know it's That was the G. That's why I know it's 2017. 2017. 2017. Wow. Wow. Wow. Did you because obviously that that made Did you because obviously that that made Did you because obviously that that made a difference when you got back and you a difference when you got back and you a difference when you got back and you had those little flare up fires here and had those little flare up fires here and had those little flare up fires here and there, there, there, >> you know, because you you've been known >> you know, because you you've been known >> you know, because you you've been known for your doctrine. I mean, you're still for your doctrine. I mean, you're still for your doctrine. I mean, you're still writing on doctrine. That's your latest writing on doctrine. That's your latest writing on doctrine. That's your latest book, right? It's on doctrine, becoming book, right? It's on doctrine, becoming book, right? It's on doctrine, becoming like Jesus. like Jesus. like Jesus. >> Uh well, not all of it, but I mean, >> Uh well, not all of it, but I mean, >> Uh well, not all of it, but I mean, yeah, you haven't abandoned doctrine. yeah, you haven't abandoned doctrine. yeah, you haven't abandoned doctrine. So, when you made that shift, So, when you made that shift, So, when you made that shift, >> did it a like what were people's >> did it a like what were people's >> did it a like what were people's reactions? Did people get agitated, reactions? Did people get agitated, reactions? Did people get agitated, angered, weirded out? angered, weirded out? angered, weirded out? >> That's such a great question and I'm >> That's such a great question and I'm >> That's such a great question and I'm going to brag on the Lord. going to brag on the Lord. going to brag on the Lord. >> Um because I didn't know what to do. Um, >> Um because I didn't know what to do. Um, >> Um because I didn't know what to do. Um, so I like I just started seeking the so I like I just started seeking the so I like I just started seeking the Lord and I meant about as clearly as Lord and I meant about as clearly as Lord and I meant about as clearly as I've heard him carry uh I got the word I've heard him carry uh I got the word I've heard him carry uh I got the word sa and so the way I interpreted that was sa and so the way I interpreted that was sa and so the way I interpreted that was the Lord was asking me hey don't go do the Lord was asking me hey don't go do the Lord was asking me hey don't go do this create space for me and I'll do it this create space for me and I'll do it this create space for me and I'll do it if if if >> that's a refrain in the Psalms that you >> that's a refrain in the Psalms that you >> that's a refrain in the Psalms that you >> like pause >> like pause >> like pause >> because he knows me I mean he knows me >> because he knows me I mean he knows me >> because he knows me I mean he knows me well he he knows personality type how I well he he knows personality type how I well he he knows personality type how I lead how I frenetically hum internally lead how I frenetically hum internally lead how I frenetically hum internally And so he just asked me, "Don't do it.

And so he just asked me, "Don't do it. And so he just asked me, "Don't do it. Just make space for me and I'll do it in Just make space for me and I'll do it in Just make space for me and I'll do it in a way." And and now that I'm on this a way." And and now that I'm on this a way." And and now that I'm on this side of things, I think had I led the side of things, I think had I led the side of things, I think had I led the way I know how to lead. Um I think we way I know how to lead. Um I think we way I know how to lead. Um I think we would have lost thousands of people over would have lost thousands of people over would have lost thousands of people over >> you would have gotten up and said, "All >> you would have gotten up and said, "All >> you would have gotten up and said, "All right, guys. I got this wrong. We're right, guys. I got this wrong. We're right, guys. I got this wrong. We're going to be open to the Holy Spirit." going to be open to the Holy Spirit." going to be open to the Holy Spirit." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And anyone who had a bad charismatic >> And anyone who had a bad charismatic >> And anyone who had a bad charismatic experience or was afraid of it would experience or was afraid of it would experience or was afraid of it would have made a beline for the door. have made a beline for the door. have made a beline for the door. >> That's right. So, I just started making >> That's right. So, I just started making >> That's right. So, I just started making tiny shifts like elderled prayer turned tiny shifts like elderled prayer turned tiny shifts like elderled prayer turned into encounter where we it was a healing into encounter where we it was a healing into encounter where we it was a healing service where we were going to pray for service where we were going to pray for service where we were going to pray for the sick and the spiritually bound. It the sick and the spiritually bound. It the sick and the spiritually bound. It it didn't and people are like, "Wait, it didn't and people are like, "Wait, it didn't and people are like, "Wait, what now? What are you doing?" And I'm what now? What are you doing?" And I'm what now? What are you doing?" And I'm like, "I'm not doing anything different. like, "I'm not doing anything different. like, "I'm not doing anything different. The elders have been praying for the The elders have been praying for the The elders have been praying for the sick for years and elder prayer. We're sick for years and elder prayer. We're sick for years and elder prayer. We're just calling it encounter now. We're just calling it encounter now. We're just calling it encounter now. We're doing the same thing." Um, and then, you doing the same thing." Um, and then, you doing the same thing." Um, and then, you know, started making space, know, started making space, know, started making space, slowing things down, um, staying in slowing things down, um, staying in slowing things down, um, staying in moments moments moments and and not really changing how I'm and and not really changing how I'm and and not really changing how I'm preaching really at all at first. And preaching really at all at first. And preaching really at all at first. And certainly the emphasis was changing, but certainly the emphasis was changing, but certainly the emphasis was changing, but but I started trying to find images that but I started trying to find images that but I started trying to find images that would help. uh in and the image that I'm would help. uh in and the image that I'm would help. uh in and the image that I'm I'm still talking about is I'll just ask I'm still talking about is I'll just ask I'm still talking about is I'll just ask people what's your favorite plane on the people what's your favorite plane on the people what's your favorite plane on the wing of of an airplane on an airplane wing of of an airplane on an airplane wing of of an airplane on an airplane when you're in flight which which which when you're in flight which which which when you're in flight which which which wing to you is the most important. Well, wing to you is the most important. Well, wing to you is the most important. Well, I mean they're going to answer I need I mean they're going to answer I need I mean they're going to answer I need both of them. And I'm like yeah and and both of them. And I'm like yeah and and both of them. And I'm like yeah and and so the scriptures are clear. We need so the scriptures are clear. We need so the scriptures are clear. We need spirit and truth. And so I don't plan on

spirit and truth. And so I don't plan on spirit and truth. And so I don't plan on shrinking back doctrally at all. What shrinking back doctrally at all. What shrinking back doctrally at all. What I'm planning on doing is practicing our I'm planning on doing is practicing our I'm planning on doing is practicing our doctrine by inviting the Holy Spirit to doctrine by inviting the Holy Spirit to doctrine by inviting the Holy Spirit to move and allowing the spirit to do what move and allowing the spirit to do what move and allowing the spirit to do what he wants to do over maybe what we've he wants to do over maybe what we've he wants to do over maybe what we've planned to do. planned to do. planned to do. >> Earlier you alluded to the fact that you >> Earlier you alluded to the fact that you >> Earlier you alluded to the fact that you know you're on the road a lot. You get know you're on the road a lot. You get know you're on the road a lot. You get to speak all over the world and you'll to speak all over the world and you'll to speak all over the world and you'll see these see these see these little outbreaks of the Holy Spirit little outbreaks of the Holy Spirit little outbreaks of the Holy Spirit happen. You're preaching at a happen. You're preaching at a happen. You're preaching at a conference. People start confessing conference. People start confessing conference. People start confessing their sin, weeping. There seems to be a their sin, weeping. There seems to be a their sin, weeping. There seems to be a supernatural move. And then you get supernatural move. And then you get supernatural move. And then you get home. home. home. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's home. >> And it's home. >> And it's home. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I've had so many backroom >> So, I've had so many backroom >> So, I've had so many backroom conversations with preachers who will conversations with preachers who will conversations with preachers who will quietly tell you that sometimes being at quietly tell you that sometimes being at quietly tell you that sometimes being at the home church is anticlimatic. the home church is anticlimatic. the home church is anticlimatic. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yeah. You know what's funny? And I want >> Yeah. You know what's funny? And I want >> Yeah. You know what's funny? And I want to make sure I honor I am so loved at to make sure I honor I am so loved at to make sure I honor I am so loved at the village. So, the village. So, the village. So, and so like the they they have endured and so like the they they have endured and so like the they they have endured me. I mean, they hired me when I was 28. me. I mean, they hired me when I was 28. me. I mean, they hired me when I was 28. You know how much I knew when I was 28? You know how much I knew when I was 28? You know how much I knew when I was 28? I knew everything when I was 20.

I knew everything when I was 20. I knew everything when I was 20. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] And they endured that. They endured And they endured that. They endured And they endured that. They endured seasons where I overstepped where like I seasons where I overstepped where like I seasons where I overstepped where like I can think of like moments that because I can think of like moments that because I can think of like moments that because I said them, they'll always going to be said them, they'll always going to be said them, they'll always going to be out there that I wish I could take them out there that I wish I could take them out there that I wish I could take them back and you just can't. And they just back and you just can't. And they just back and you just can't. And they just endured up under all that that I am so endured up under all that that I am so endured up under all that that I am so covered, loved. I love the people of the covered, loved. I love the people of the covered, loved. I love the people of the village church. My frustration was with village church. My frustration was with village church. My frustration was with the Lord because I wouldn't like what the Lord because I wouldn't like what the Lord because I wouldn't like what what are they doing? Like they the what are they doing? Like they the what are they doing? Like they the spirit has to do something there to spirit has to do something there to spirit has to do something there to provoke that. I I can't preach it into provoke that. I I can't preach it into provoke that. I I can't preach it into being. The God of this age has blinded being. The God of this age has blinded being. The God of this age has blinded the minds of those who are perishing. the minds of those who are perishing. the minds of those who are perishing. I'm not talking about emotionalism. Like I'm not talking about emotionalism. Like I'm not talking about emotionalism. Like I can whip a crowd into a frenzy, but I can whip a crowd into a frenzy, but I can whip a crowd into a frenzy, but that that's not getting them out of our that that's not getting them out of our that that's not getting them out of our parking lot. Um you know, they're going parking lot. Um you know, they're going parking lot. Um you know, they're going to be really motivated and and then give to be really motivated and and then give to be really motivated and and then give the parking guy the finger on the way the parking guy the finger on the way the parking guy the finger on the way out of the trying to get out of our out of the trying to get out of our out of the trying to get out of our parking lot. And so my my frustration parking lot. And so my my frustration parking lot. And so my my frustration from 17 until recently has been Lord, from 17 until recently has been Lord, from 17 until recently has been Lord, when will you do this here? when the when will you do this here? when the when will you do this here? when the things I'm seeing on the road. One, things I'm seeing on the road. One, things I'm seeing on the road. One, they're happening because everybody they're happening because everybody they're happening because everybody coming in is expectant for it, longing coming in is expectant for it, longing coming in is expectant for it, longing for it, and praying for it. And and man, for it, and praying for it. And and man, for it, and praying for it. And and man, I I knew I have failed them in not I I knew I have failed them in not I I knew I have failed them in not wanting the more that's promised. And so wanting the more that's promised. And so wanting the more that's promised. And so part of the leadership really the the part of the leadership really the the part of the leadership really the the last well since 2017 18 has been how do last well since 2017 18 has been how do last well since 2017 18 has been how do we cultivate hearts of expectancy and we cultivate hearts of expectancy and we cultivate hearts of expectancy and prayerful dependence and a true belief prayerful dependence and a true belief prayerful dependence and a true belief that if God doesn't do it then all this that if God doesn't do it then all this that if God doesn't do it then all this is chaff.

is chaff. is chaff. >> It's built on my personality or the >> It's built on my personality or the >> It's built on my personality or the talent of our worship team or that and talent of our worship team or that and talent of our worship team or that and I'm uninterested in that. I'm uninterested in that. I'm uninterested in that. >> This episode is brought to you by Ble. >> This episode is brought to you by Ble. >> This episode is brought to you by Ble. Your church is growing, your mission is Your church is growing, your mission is Your church is growing, your mission is expanding, and more people are being expanding, and more people are being expanding, and more people are being reached every day. But with every new reached every day. But with every new reached every day. But with every new person comes more administration, more person comes more administration, more person comes more administration, more logistics, more behind-the-scenes work logistics, more behind-the-scenes work logistics, more behind-the-scenes work demanding your attention. And before demanding your attention. And before demanding your attention. And before long, the calling that once energized long, the calling that once energized long, the calling that once energized you starts feeling weighed down by you starts feeling weighed down by you starts feeling weighed down by endless tasks. So instead of being fully endless tasks. So instead of being fully endless tasks. So instead of being fully present with your church and community, present with your church and community, present with your church and community, you're buried in operations. The you're buried in operations. The you're buried in operations. The ministry might be growing, but your ministry might be growing, but your ministry might be growing, but your capacity is stretched thin. Fortunately, capacity is stretched thin. Fortunately, capacity is stretched thin. Fortunately, you don't have to choose between you don't have to choose between you don't have to choose between expanding your impact and staying expanding your impact and staying expanding your impact and staying connected to your calling. With Ballay, connected to your calling. With Ballay, connected to your calling. With Ballay, you get dedicated US-based assistant or you get dedicated US-based assistant or you get dedicated US-based assistant or accounting support tailored specifically accounting support tailored specifically accounting support tailored specifically to your church, so you can spend less to your church, so you can spend less to your church, so you can spend less time managing the details and more time time managing the details and more time time managing the details and more time leading your people. Well, they're also leading your people. Well, they're also leading your people. Well, they're also offering a free download of the Freedom offering a free download of the Freedom offering a free download of the Freedom Framework. That's a practical guide that Framework. That's a practical guide that Framework. That's a practical guide that walks you through four steps to build a walks you through four steps to build a walks you through four steps to build a church infrastructure that empowers your church infrastructure that empowers your church infrastructure that empowers your team and helps everything run smoothly team and helps everything run smoothly team and helps everything run smoothly without your constant oversight. So just without your constant oversight. So just without your constant oversight. So just text the word Carrie C a r y to 55123 text the word Carrie C a r y to 55123 text the word Carrie C a r y to 55123 for your free download. That's carry c a for your free download. That's carry c a for your free download. That's carry c a r y to 55123.

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But you're you're hitting on something But you're you're hitting on something and you might have better language than and you might have better language than and you might have better language than I have for this, but I think about that I have for this, but I think about that I have for this, but I think about that longing that a lot of people watching longing that a lot of people watching longing that a lot of people watching listening to this podcast can listening to this podcast can listening to this podcast can can relate to because they've heard the can relate to because they've heard the can relate to because they've heard the stories, they've seen it on social stories, they've seen it on social stories, they've seen it on social media, they've watched the videos, media, they've watched the videos, media, they've watched the videos, they've read the interviews, they heard they've read the interviews, they heard they've read the interviews, they heard the interviews here and said, "Why is the interviews here and said, "Why is the interviews here and said, "Why is this not happening?" And maybe they're this not happening?" And maybe they're this not happening?" And maybe they're very open to it. But there's a very open to it. But there's a very open to it. But there's a difference between, and the words I difference between, and the words I difference between, and the words I often think of is evoking and often think of is evoking and often think of is evoking and manipulating. Yeah. manipulating. Yeah. manipulating. Yeah. >> That as soon as it gets into >> That as soon as it gets into >> That as soon as it gets into manipulation, you know, like you say, I manipulation, you know, like you say, I manipulation, you know, like you say, I can whip a crowd into a frenzy or I'm can whip a crowd into a frenzy or I'm can whip a crowd into a frenzy or I'm going to make it happen. going to make it happen. going to make it happen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This Sunday, watch out. Like you're >> This Sunday, watch out. Like you're >> This Sunday, watch out. Like you're you're in big trouble. And we've all you're in big trouble. And we've all you're in big trouble. And we've all seen people who try to manipulate like seen people who try to manipulate like seen people who try to manipulate like manufacture something into happening. manufacture something into happening. manufacture something into happening. And evoking, I think, is different. You And evoking, I think, is different. You And evoking, I think, is different. You know, you're prayerfully expectant. know, you're prayerfully expectant. know, you're prayerfully expectant. You're hoping it's there. You hope it's You're hoping it's there. You hope it's You're hoping it's there. You hope it's in people's hearts. But that's like when in people's hearts. But that's like when in people's hearts. But that's like when you see a really good film or we were you see a really good film or we were you see a really good film or we were talking about going to concerts earlier, talking about going to concerts earlier, talking about going to concerts earlier, you hear your favorite band and you get you hear your favorite band and you get you hear your favorite band and you get a little bit weepy.

a little bit weepy. a little bit weepy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They're not trying to make you cry. No, >> They're not trying to make you cry. No, >> They're not trying to make you cry. No, >> it just evoked something, >> it just evoked something, >> it just evoked something, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And same as when you were doing your >> And same as when you were doing your >> And same as when you were doing your verse, you know, when you were studying verse, you know, when you were studying verse, you know, when you were studying First Thessalonians or wherever you First Thessalonians or wherever you First Thessalonians or wherever you were, and were, and were, and >> that that wasn't like, oh, I'm trying to >> that that wasn't like, oh, I'm trying to >> that that wasn't like, oh, I'm trying to cry here. It's like, man, it just cry here. It's like, man, it just cry here. It's like, man, it just convicted you. And I think you can evoke convicted you. And I think you can evoke convicted you. And I think you can evoke it. How do you draw that line between it. How do you draw that line between it. How do you draw that line between like as far as it depends on me, I'm like as far as it depends on me, I'm like as far as it depends on me, I'm going to prep. I'm going to be ready. going to prep. I'm going to be ready. going to prep. I'm going to be ready. I'm going to be open. I'm going to be I'm going to be open. I'm going to be I'm going to be open. I'm going to be expectant, expectant, expectant, but I can't make this happen. What does but I can't make this happen. What does but I can't make this happen. What does that look like for you, Matt? that look like for you, Matt? that look like for you, Matt? >> Well, I I think it means that our prayer >> Well, I I think it means that our prayer >> Well, I I think it means that our prayer life increases exponentially. Uh I think life increases exponentially. Uh I think life increases exponentially. Uh I think we're growing in a knowledge of the we're growing in a knowledge of the we're growing in a knowledge of the prayers and promises of God. Um, so I prayers and promises of God. Um, so I prayers and promises of God. Um, so I love that passage in Isaiah where God is love that passage in Isaiah where God is love that passage in Isaiah where God is saying through the prophet Isaiah, I saying through the prophet Isaiah, I saying through the prophet Isaiah, I have set watchmen on the wall. But but have set watchmen on the wall. But but have set watchmen on the wall. But but if you keep reading, for what purpose? if you keep reading, for what purpose? if you keep reading, for what purpose? To give me no rest. God's saying that he To give me no rest. God's saying that he To give me no rest. God's saying that he has set watchmen that give him no rest. has set watchmen that give him no rest. has set watchmen that give him no rest. And and this if you go back to the And and this if you go back to the And and this if you go back to the Hebdes, these are like the mighty men of Hebdes, these are like the mighty men of Hebdes, these are like the mighty men of Barva. They're they're men that are Barva. They're they're men that are Barva. They're they're men that are contending with God over his promises.

contending with God over his promises. contending with God over his promises. So for me, what it's looked like is So for me, what it's looked like is So for me, what it's looked like is really knowing the promises of God for really knowing the promises of God for really knowing the promises of God for his people and then contending with that his people and then contending with that his people and then contending with that watchman mentality. And what I mean by watchman mentality. And what I mean by watchman mentality. And what I mean by that is I am I am evoking the prayers that is I am I am evoking the prayers that is I am I am evoking the prayers like Moses in 33. You said these are like Moses in 33. You said these are like Moses in 33. You said these are your people. You promised and then your people. You promised and then your people. You promised and then staying low. staying low. staying low. >> Staying low. And then the thing that was >> Staying low. And then the thing that was >> Staying low. And then the thing that was probably hardest for me um was to um probably hardest for me um was to um probably hardest for me um was to um learn how to when the spirit started learn how to when the spirit started learn how to when the spirit started doing something give him room to do it doing something give him room to do it doing something give him room to do it and get off my planning center timer and get off my planning center timer and get off my planning center timer that's telling me what we're supposed to that's telling me what we're supposed to that's telling me what we're supposed to do next because we do communion every do next because we do communion every do next because we do communion every weekend. We have lurggical prayers. We weekend. We have lurggical prayers. We weekend. We have lurggical prayers. We have all that stuff. have all that stuff. have all that stuff. >> Multiple services, parking your parking >> Multiple services, parking your parking >> Multiple services, parking your parking lot. I've been there. lot. I've been there. lot. I've been there. >> Yeah. Well, you it's a work of art now, >> Yeah. Well, you it's a work of art now, >> Yeah. Well, you it's a work of art now, brother. It's easier. Not great, but brother. It's easier. Not great, but brother. It's easier. Not great, but easier. easier. easier. >> And like if I'm saying come Holy Spirit, >> And like if I'm saying come Holy Spirit, >> And like if I'm saying come Holy Spirit, >> uh I can't say come Holy Spirit, you got >> uh I can't say come Holy Spirit, you got >> uh I can't say come Holy Spirit, you got three minutes.

three minutes. three minutes. >> And and so we we learned the gift of >> And and so we we learned the gift of >> And and so we we learned the gift of space. Like what does it look like to space. Like what does it look like to space. Like what does it look like to build in space to our hour and a half build in space to our hour and a half build in space to our hour and a half long services? long services? long services? >> So can I ask how you do that? Like do >> So can I ask how you do that? Like do >> So can I ask how you do that? Like do you what's your typical preach time you what's your typical preach time you what's your typical preach time normally on a normal normally on a normal normally on a normal >> normal preach time is 40 45 minutes. So, >> normal preach time is 40 45 minutes. So, >> normal preach time is 40 45 minutes. So, have you started preparing 30 minute have you started preparing 30 minute have you started preparing 30 minute messages that breathe a little bit more messages that breathe a little bit more messages that breathe a little bit more or like what do you do? or like what do you do? or like what do you do? >> We will we I I can depending on when >> We will we I I can depending on when >> We will we I I can depending on when we're together praying and building out we're together praying and building out we're together praying and building out flows I if Grant or Will who are worship flows I if Grant or Will who are worship flows I if Grant or Will who are worship guys who I so trust they're they're not guys who I so trust they're they're not guys who I so trust they're they're not the guys that going to preach a sermon the guys that going to preach a sermon the guys that going to preach a sermon between songs but if they get a sense between songs but if they get a sense between songs but if they get a sense that the spirit of God is doing that the spirit of God is doing that the spirit of God is doing something I I want them to have freedom. something I I want them to have freedom. something I I want them to have freedom. So partly for them, what it looks like So partly for them, what it looks like So partly for them, what it looks like is maybe we don't need to do four songs is maybe we don't need to do four songs is maybe we don't need to do four songs in our 20-minute block. Maybe we need to in our 20-minute block. Maybe we need to in our 20-minute block. Maybe we need to do two with a tag and really let it do two with a tag and really let it do two with a tag and really let it breathe and pause in there for a little breathe and pause in there for a little breathe and pause in there for a little bit. And then what I have started doing bit. And then what I have started doing bit. And then what I have started doing is like this is a real example from two is like this is a real example from two is like this is a real example from two weekends ago. Um I I had just felt weekends ago. Um I I had just felt weekends ago. Um I I had just felt leading up to the weekend after we had leading up to the weekend after we had leading up to the weekend after we had planned the service um that that the planned the service um that that the planned the service um that that the Lord wanted to do a work in some men in Lord wanted to do a work in some men in Lord wanted to do a work in some men in our congregation.

our congregation. our congregation. And so, you know, I I I show up for And so, you know, I I I show up for And so, you know, I I I show up for weekend services and I'm like, "Hey, weekend services and I'm like, "Hey, weekend services and I'm like, "Hey, there's a chance that during worship, I there's a chance that during worship, I there's a chance that during worship, I I'm going to I'm going to come out, I'm going to I'm going to come out, I'm going to I'm going to come out, depending on how I'm sensing the spirits depending on how I'm sensing the spirits depending on how I'm sensing the spirits in the room and and maybe speak a word in the room and and maybe speak a word in the room and and maybe speak a word to our men. I I don't know that I'm to our men. I I don't know that I'm to our men. I I don't know that I'm going to do that. I've just got that going to do that. I've just got that going to do that. I've just got that sense. It's been building all week. I've sense. It's been building all week. I've sense. It's been building all week. I've been praying into it. And if I do that, been praying into it. And if I do that, been praying into it. And if I do that, I will shrink my preaching time." And so I will shrink my preaching time." And so I will shrink my preaching time." And so they did two songs and they were headed they did two songs and they were headed they did two songs and they were headed into their little tag and I walked out into their little tag and I walked out into their little tag and I walked out and so they saw me walk out. So they and so they saw me walk out. So they and so they saw me walk out. So they downed it and and I just kind of that downed it and and I just kind of that downed it and and I just kind of that just gave a call to our men and and that just gave a call to our men and and that just gave a call to our men and and that idea of you know feeling like orphans idea of you know feeling like orphans idea of you know feeling like orphans and feeling like failures and feeling and feeling like failures and feeling and feeling like failures and feeling like and just ask men who are in that like and just ask men who are in that like and just ask men who are in that spot right now like running out of gas spot right now like running out of gas spot right now like running out of gas not quite sure they're going to make it not quite sure they're going to make it not quite sure they're going to make it much longer. If you're in here would you much longer. If you're in here would you much longer. If you're in here would you raise your hand? They I mean hund and raise your hand? They I mean hund and raise your hand? They I mean hund and something men raised their hand plus. something men raised their hand plus. something men raised their hand plus. And then I was like, "Okay, I'm going to And then I was like, "Okay, I'm going to And then I was like, "Okay, I'm going to ask you to trust me. Will you brothers ask you to trust me. Will you brothers ask you to trust me. Will you brothers come up here? Just come up to the altar come up here? Just come up to the altar come up here? Just come up to the altar right now." So, we're still in what on right now." So, we're still in what on right now." So, we're still in what on PCO would look like the worship block PCO would look like the worship block PCO would look like the worship block and or singing block. Let me say it that and or singing block. Let me say it that and or singing block. Let me say it that way. That's the more accurate way, way. That's the more accurate way, way. That's the more accurate way, right? and and those brothers came down right? and and those brothers came down right? and and those brothers came down and and I just spent some time fathering and and I just spent some time fathering and and I just spent some time fathering them, praying over them, praying have, them, praying over them, praying have, them, praying over them, praying have, you know, having them cup their hands so you know, having them cup their hands so you know, having them cup their hands so I can pray a fatherly blessing over I can pray a fatherly blessing over I can pray a fatherly blessing over them, reminding them of what their them, reminding them of what their them, reminding them of what their heavenly father sees. And then had Grant heavenly father sees. And then had Grant heavenly father sees. And then had Grant close us out with with that tag. And

close us out with with that tag. And close us out with with that tag. And they all sang that and then I preached they all sang that and then I preached they all sang that and then I preached my sermon and carved about 10 minutes my sermon and carved about 10 minutes my sermon and carved about 10 minutes off of it. off of it. off of it. >> That's so helpful. I get emotional >> That's so helpful. I get emotional >> That's so helpful. I get emotional thinking about that moment. thinking about that moment. thinking about that moment. >> He was power krie is powerful and and >> He was power krie is powerful and and >> He was power krie is powerful and and that's the I think that's the I think that's the I think there's so much pain in the room every there's so much pain in the room every there's so much pain in the room every time and time and time and >> every single time he has >> every single time he has >> every single time he has >> especially not just unbelievers. I mean >> especially not just unbelievers. I mean >> especially not just unbelievers. I mean they're carrying pain but our people they're carrying pain but our people they're carrying pain but our people people I mean that's partly why I wrote people I mean that's partly why I wrote people I mean that's partly why I wrote the book I just wrote because of how the book I just wrote because of how the book I just wrote because of how much pain is actually out there and how much pain is actually out there and how much pain is actually out there and how little we ever acknowledge it and how little we ever acknowledge it and how little we ever acknowledge it and how much Jesus wants to minister to it. What much Jesus wants to minister to it. What much Jesus wants to minister to it. What I love about that is you've got the I love about that is you've got the I love about that is you've got the entire entire entire team. team. team. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> On the same page willing like you're not >> On the same page willing like you're not >> On the same page willing like you're not we're cutting all the worship songs. I'm we're cutting all the worship songs. I'm we're cutting all the worship songs. I'm going to preach for 45 minutes anyway. going to preach for 45 minutes anyway. going to preach for 45 minutes anyway. It's a It's a It's a >> it's a back and forth and everyone's >> it's a back and forth and everyone's >> it's a back and forth and everyone's synced up with the with the the spirit synced up with the with the the spirit synced up with the with the the spirit of the day, so to speak, as well as the of the day, so to speak, as well as the of the day, so to speak, as well as the Holy Spirit. I think that's that's Holy Spirit. I think that's that's Holy Spirit. I think that's that's probably some of the most practical probably some of the most practical probably some of the most practical >> well >> well >> well >> advice we've had on the podcast about >> advice we've had on the podcast about >> advice we've had on the podcast about how to work through a moment like that how to work through a moment like that how to work through a moment like that where everybody's flexing for everybody where everybody's flexing for everybody where everybody's flexing for everybody else else else >> and again you could have easily been >> and again you could have easily been >> and again you could have easily been like nah it's not this Sunday and they like nah it's not this Sunday and they like nah it's not this Sunday and they do the tag and you get up and you give do the tag and you get up and you give do the tag and you get up and you give your normal message your normal message your normal message >> and everyone says that was a great >> and everyone says that was a great >> and everyone says that was a great service.

service. service. >> Yeah. The word of God would have gone >> Yeah. The word of God would have gone >> Yeah. The word of God would have gone out faithfully. We would have sung out faithfully. We would have sung out faithfully. We would have sung beautifully to the Lord. We would have beautifully to the Lord. We would have beautifully to the Lord. We would have taken the elements. We would have taken the elements. We would have taken the elements. We would have celebrated baptism. But the spirit had celebrated baptism. But the spirit had celebrated baptism. But the spirit had something for those brothers that day something for those brothers that day something for those brothers that day and and it marked them. And I want I and and it marked them. And I want I and and it marked them. And I want I want to give my life to that stuff, want to give my life to that stuff, want to give my life to that stuff, >> man. Man. Okay. I want to talk about >> man. Man. Okay. I want to talk about >> man. Man. Okay. I want to talk about what you're talking about right now. And what you're talking about right now. And what you're talking about right now. And you have a line. I think I got this you have a line. I think I got this you have a line. I think I got this right. My life since Jesus saved me has right. My life since Jesus saved me has right. My life since Jesus saved me has been beautiful and brutal. been beautiful and brutal. been beautiful and brutal. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh you can get an amen. Do you want to >> Uh you can get an amen. Do you want to >> Uh you can get an amen. Do you want to talk about the beautiful and the brutal? talk about the beautiful and the brutal? talk about the beautiful and the brutal? Like what is under that? Like what is under that? Like what is under that? >> Matt one, let me say this. Anyone >> Matt one, let me say this. Anyone >> Matt one, let me say this. Anyone listening to us right now, anyone who listening to us right now, anyone who listening to us right now, anyone who picks up the book, it's their story, picks up the book, it's their story, picks up the book, it's their story, too, which is what I think is my next too, which is what I think is my next too, which is what I think is my next sentence in the book. Um, man, I And sentence in the book. Um, man, I And sentence in the book. Um, man, I And people who follow me, they they know. people who follow me, they they know. people who follow me, they they know. And even our conversation last time we And even our conversation last time we And even our conversation last time we were on together. were on together. were on together. >> You've been so transparent and I I thank >> You've been so transparent and I I thank >> You've been so transparent and I I thank you for that. You know, I've said that you for that. You know, I've said that you for that. You know, I've said that to our friends Craig Relle, to Jenny to our friends Craig Relle, to Jenny to our friends Craig Relle, to Jenny Allen, to Louis Gigglio. I did an Allen, to Louis Gigglio. I did an Allen, to Louis Gigglio. I did an interview with them recently. interview with them recently. interview with them recently. >> I'm like, you guys are getting more >> I'm like, you guys are getting more >> I'm like, you guys are getting more transparent, not less, as you carry on transparent, not less, as you carry on transparent, not less, as you carry on in ministry. And that is such a gift to in ministry. And that is such a gift to in ministry. And that is such a gift to everybody. Why? Why transparency? Why everybody. Why? Why transparency? Why everybody. Why? Why transparency? Why are you this raw?

are you this raw? are you this raw? >> I don't I don't think me wearing a cape >> I don't I don't think me wearing a cape >> I don't I don't think me wearing a cape helps anyone. Like it it makes what's helps anyone. Like it it makes what's helps anyone. Like it it makes what's available in Christ feel out of reach available in Christ feel out of reach available in Christ feel out of reach for like the normal person sitting in a for like the normal person sitting in a for like the normal person sitting in a chair listening to us preach. Like I in chair listening to us preach. Like I in chair listening to us preach. Like I in all honesty, I know I'm beloved by God. all honesty, I know I'm beloved by God. all honesty, I know I'm beloved by God. I know I'm a son. I know he delights in I know I'm a son. I know he delights in I know I'm a son. I know he delights in me. I feel like Jacob, bro. Like in my me. I feel like Jacob, bro. Like in my me. I feel like Jacob, bro. Like in my heart, I feel like a scoundrel on whom heart, I feel like a scoundrel on whom heart, I feel like a scoundrel on whom the favor of the Lord rests. the favor of the Lord rests. the favor of the Lord rests. >> Tell me about it. >> Tell me about it. >> Tell me about it. >> And I don't, man, I don't ever want to >> And I don't, man, I don't ever want to >> And I don't, man, I don't ever want to touch this Matt Chandler thing that's touch this Matt Chandler thing that's touch this Matt Chandler thing that's out there. I don't. So, I don't think it out there. I don't. So, I don't think it out there. I don't. So, I don't think it serves anyone for me to wear a cape and serves anyone for me to wear a cape and serves anyone for me to wear a cape and me to be dishonest about everyone's me to be dishonest about everyone's me to be dishonest about everyone's lived experience, which is it's a lived experience, which is it's a lived experience, which is it's a mixture of beauty and brutality, joy and mixture of beauty and brutality, joy and mixture of beauty and brutality, joy and sorrow. Sometimes in the same season, sorrow. Sometimes in the same season, sorrow. Sometimes in the same season, sometimes the season marked by one or sometimes the season marked by one or sometimes the season marked by one or the other, but both are ever present. the other, but both are ever present. the other, but both are ever present. And this is the testimony of the And this is the testimony of the And this is the testimony of the scriptures. And the idea of linear scriptures. And the idea of linear scriptures. And the idea of linear upward holiness as the norm is nowhere upward holiness as the norm is nowhere upward holiness as the norm is nowhere in the Bible and nowhere in Christian in the Bible and nowhere in Christian in the Bible and nowhere in Christian history. No one's gone up and to the history. No one's gone up and to the history. No one's gone up and to the right. No one has.

right. No one has. right. No one has. >> That's interesting because you have the >> That's interesting because you have the >> That's interesting because you have the coil metaphor. That's right. coil metaphor. That's right. coil metaphor. That's right. >> Can Can you explain that? Because, you >> Can Can you explain that? Because, you >> Can Can you explain that? Because, you know, I have some conversations here and know, I have some conversations here and know, I have some conversations here and I'm like, I thought I'd be further ahead I'm like, I thought I'd be further ahead I'm like, I thought I'd be further ahead by now. by now. by now. >> Yeah. Which again is everyone's lived >> Yeah. Which again is everyone's lived >> Yeah. Which again is everyone's lived experience. I mean, I I write about in experience. I mean, I I write about in experience. I mean, I I write about in the book this this video I've watched of the book this this video I've watched of the book this this video I've watched of Ji Packer, Jim Packer, like one of the Ji Packer, Jim Packer, like one of the Ji Packer, Jim Packer, like one of the most prominent theologians of last most prominent theologians of last most prominent theologians of last century who's in his 80s and talking century who's in his 80s and talking century who's in his 80s and talking about repenting in his 80s. And man, I about repenting in his 80s. And man, I about repenting in his 80s. And man, I was in my I think that thing came out was in my I think that thing came out was in my I think that thing came out four or five years ago. was pushing 50 four or five years ago. was pushing 50 four or five years ago. was pushing 50 and I was like, "Wait, I'm not wait I'm and I was like, "Wait, I'm not wait I'm and I was like, "Wait, I'm not wait I'm not close to having to not repent not close to having to not repent not close to having to not repent anymore. If Jim Packer's still anymore. If Jim Packer's still anymore. If Jim Packer's still repenting, we're all going to be repenting, we're all going to be repenting, we're all going to be repenting." And everybody's going to repenting." And everybody's going to repenting." And everybody's going to say, "I thought I'd be farther along." say, "I thought I'd be farther along." say, "I thought I'd be farther along." And part of that is the closer you get And part of that is the closer you get And part of that is the closer you get to the Lord, the more you see the stuff to the Lord, the more you see the stuff to the Lord, the more you see the stuff that that's kind of the more insidious that that's kind of the more insidious that that's kind of the more insidious heart motivation stuff. You see your heart motivation stuff. You see your heart motivation stuff. You see your pride, you see your self-reliance, you pride, you see your self-reliance, you pride, you see your self-reliance, you see your self-righteousness. see your self-righteousness. see your self-righteousness. But if it's not up and to the right, But if it's not up and to the right, But if it's not up and to the right, what is it? Well, it moves. You're what is it? Well, it moves. You're what is it? Well, it moves. You're always moving forward. Uh even if it always moving forward. Uh even if it always moving forward. Uh even if it feels like you're going backwards, feels like you're going backwards, feels like you're going backwards, you're moving forward. So it I I just you're moving forward. So it I I just you're moving forward. So it I I just thought, man, it's like the first thought, man, it's like the first thought, man, it's like the first thought I had because I'm me was it's thought I had because I'm me was it's thought I had because I'm me was it's like a slinky was like a slinky like a slinky was like a slinky like a slinky was like a slinky stretched out sideways. Oh, don't say stretched out sideways. Oh, don't say stretched out sideways. Oh, don't say that. A slinky is a coil. So in the coil that. A slinky is a coil. So in the coil that. A slinky is a coil. So in the coil metaphor, like every high and low is metaphor, like every high and low is metaphor, like every high and low is still moving you forward. that the low still moving you forward. that the low still moving you forward. that the low point doesn't mean you did something point doesn't mean you did something point doesn't mean you did something wrong or God's disappointed or his brow wrong or God's disappointed or his brow wrong or God's disappointed or his brow is furrowed, but that he's using the low

is furrowed, but that he's using the low is furrowed, but that he's using the low to form just like he uses the high. So to form just like he uses the high. So to form just like he uses the high. So rather than measuring how I'm doing by rather than measuring how I'm doing by rather than measuring how I'm doing by wins and losses, I'm trusting that I'm wins and losses, I'm trusting that I'm wins and losses, I'm trusting that I'm like that tree that Isaiah writes about like that tree that Isaiah writes about like that tree that Isaiah writes about when he says that we will be called oaks when he says that we will be called oaks when he says that we will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the Lord of righteousness, a planting of the Lord of righteousness, a planting of the Lord for the display of his splendor. Well, a for the display of his splendor. Well, a for the display of his splendor. Well, a tree is a tree, and you can stare at a tree is a tree, and you can stare at a tree is a tree, and you can stare at a tree as long as you want. You're not tree as long as you want. You're not tree as long as you want. You're not going to watch it grow, but the only way going to watch it grow, but the only way going to watch it grow, but the only way for it to grow is to get rain, but also for it to grow is to get rain, but also for it to grow is to get rain, but also endure drought, uh, right? To be kissed endure drought, uh, right? To be kissed endure drought, uh, right? To be kissed by the sun, but also survive a freeze. by the sun, but also survive a freeze. by the sun, but also survive a freeze. So, so I if it's a deciduous tree and it So, so I if it's a deciduous tree and it So, so I if it's a deciduous tree and it drops its leaves, which is an oak, um I drops its leaves, which is an oak, um I drops its leaves, which is an oak, um I if you stare at an oak in the dead of if you stare at an oak in the dead of if you stare at an oak in the dead of winter, you might not know if it's alive winter, you might not know if it's alive winter, you might not know if it's alive or not, but it's still a tree. It's or not, but it's still a tree. It's or not, but it's still a tree. It's still a tree. And that freeze just still a tree. And that freeze just still a tree. And that freeze just developed strength of root. So, watch it developed strength of root. So, watch it developed strength of root. So, watch it this spring. Watch what happens this this spring. Watch what happens this this spring. Watch what happens this spring. So the idea that every high and spring. So the idea that every high and spring. So the idea that every high and low is moving me forward is a framework low is moving me forward is a framework low is moving me forward is a framework that holds the Christian in joy that holds the Christian in joy that holds the Christian in joy regardless of life circumstance.

regardless of life circumstance. regardless of life circumstance. >> Well, and I think it probably reduces >> Well, and I think it probably reduces >> Well, and I think it probably reduces quitting too. quitting too. quitting too. >> Yes. Well, I think I wrote this in the >> Yes. Well, I think I wrote this in the >> Yes. Well, I think I wrote this in the book. If you don't quit, you win. book. If you don't quit, you win. book. If you don't quit, you win. >> It's just the truth. If you don't quit, >> It's just the truth. If you don't quit, >> It's just the truth. If you don't quit, you win. I get dark seasons. I've been you win. I get dark seasons. I've been you win. I get dark seasons. I've been there. there. there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And >> have you been close to quitting, >> have you been close to quitting, >> have you been close to quitting, >> man? I've listen I've started writing >> man? I've listen I've started writing >> man? I've listen I've started writing the the the resignation more than once. So I' I've been dark dark and and now So I' I've been dark dark and and now looking back on it some of the most looking back on it some of the most looking back on it some of the most formative years of my life some of the formative years of my life some of the formative years of my life some of the most formative seasons of my life like I most formative seasons of my life like I most formative seasons of my life like I learned to trust the Lord in that learned to trust the Lord in that learned to trust the Lord in that Spurgeon's got this crazy quote I used Spurgeon's got this crazy quote I used Spurgeon's got this crazy quote I used to always give when I was in my 30s. I to always give when I was in my 30s. I to always give when I was in my 30s. I had no idea what he's talking about but had no idea what he's talking about but had no idea what he's talking about but I just liked it. I have learned to kiss I just liked it. I have learned to kiss I just liked it. I have learned to kiss the wave that throws me against the rock the wave that throws me against the rock the wave that throws me against the rock of ages. >> Such a powerful quote. >> Such a powerful quote. >> It is. And I like 32. Hadn't suffered at >> It is. And I like 32. Hadn't suffered at >> It is. And I like 32. Hadn't suffered at all. You know, going, you know, this, all. You know, going, you know, this, all. You know, going, you know, this, you know, we need to be more like you know, we need to be more like you know, we need to be more like Spurgeon. Spurgeon. Spurgeon. But I hadn't I mean, I had not endured But I hadn't I mean, I had not endured But I hadn't I mean, I had not endured yet like I would I had not had cancer yet like I would I had not had cancer yet like I would I had not had cancer yet. I had not, you know, suffered some yet. I had not, you know, suffered some yet. I had not, you know, suffered some of the other things that I've had to of the other things that I've had to of the other things that I've had to endure. And and now because the fur and endure. And and now because the fur and endure. And and now because the fur and this is why I don't like the idea of this is why I don't like the idea of this is why I don't like the idea of backsliding cuz I don't think it's it's backsliding cuz I don't think it's it's backsliding cuz I don't think it's it's actually accurate like you you never actually accurate like you you never actually accurate like you you never slide all the way back to the beginning slide all the way back to the beginning slide all the way back to the beginning of the coil. That's not the way it of the coil. That's not the way it of the coil. That's not the way it works. Your experience of the stumble or works. Your experience of the stumble or works. Your experience of the stumble or the fall down here is a brand new thing.

the fall down here is a brand new thing. the fall down here is a brand new thing. So let's say a man was locked up in So let's say a man was locked up in So let's say a man was locked up in pornography, comes to know Jesus, starts pornography, comes to know Jesus, starts pornography, comes to know Jesus, starts to walk in some victory, and goes years to walk in some victory, and goes years to walk in some victory, and goes years wi without a stumble. And then I don't wi without a stumble. And then I don't wi without a stumble. And then I don't know, man, he's got all sorts of stress know, man, he's got all sorts of stress know, man, he's got all sorts of stress going on. He has a weak moment. He views going on. He has a weak moment. He views going on. He has a weak moment. He views some pornography. Immediately he's cut some pornography. Immediately he's cut some pornography. Immediately he's cut to the quick by it, convicted by the to the quick by it, convicted by the to the quick by it, convicted by the indwelling of the spirit. I if he indwelling of the spirit. I if he indwelling of the spirit. I if he understands the gospel, he then takes understands the gospel, he then takes understands the gospel, he then takes that to God, confesses, takes that to that to God, confesses, takes that to that to God, confesses, takes that to community and confesses. Well, he didn't community and confesses. Well, he didn't community and confesses. Well, he didn't slide all the way back to what he was slide all the way back to what he was slide all the way back to what he was when he started. So, so that's not when he started. So, so that's not when he started. So, so that's not you're not all the way back at the you're not all the way back at the you're not all the way back at the beginning. You you're just do what God's beginning. You you're just do what God's beginning. You you're just do what God's called you to do. Confess. Repent. Maybe called you to do. Confess. Repent. Maybe called you to do. Confess. Repent. Maybe you need some more structure. Don't you need some more structure. Don't you need some more structure. Don't create distance from Jesus because you create distance from Jesus because you create distance from Jesus because you screwed up. He knew what he was buying screwed up. He knew what he was buying screwed up. He knew what he was buying on the cross. Like Jesus knew. Why do on the cross. Like Jesus knew. Why do on the cross. Like Jesus knew. Why do you think the cross is so the cross outs you think the cross is so the cross outs you think the cross is so the cross outs us all as in desperate need for all of us all as in desperate need for all of us all as in desperate need for all of life? life? life? >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the art of preaching. So, preachers, if art of preaching. So, preachers, if art of preaching. So, preachers, if you've been writing sermons on Saturday you've been writing sermons on Saturday you've been writing sermons on Saturday night, you're fumbling for your notes at night, you're fumbling for your notes at night, you're fumbling for your notes at the pulpit on Sunday morning, or all you the pulpit on Sunday morning, or all you the pulpit on Sunday morning, or all you do is replay mistakes in your head at do is replay mistakes in your head at do is replay mistakes in your head at 2:00 a.m. while you're trying to recover 2:00 a.m. while you're trying to recover 2:00 a.m. while you're trying to recover from what you did. I get it. I've been from what you did. I get it. I've been from what you did. I get it. I've been there. And the good news is that the art there. And the good news is that the art there. And the good news is that the art of preaching is here to help. It's a of preaching is here to help. It's a of preaching is here to help. It's a step-by-step course that has already step-by-step course that has already step-by-step course that has already helped over 3,500 preachers write and helped over 3,500 preachers write and helped over 3,500 preachers write and deliver messages that are engaging, deliver messages that are engaging, deliver messages that are engaging, relevant, and memorable. And after each relevant, and memorable. And after each relevant, and memorable. And after each lesson, there are materials to help you lesson, there are materials to help you lesson, there are materials to help you incorporate what you've learned into incorporate what you've learned into incorporate what you've learned into your next sermon so you can step on your next sermon so you can step on your next sermon so you can step on stage ready to deliver a message that

stage ready to deliver a message that stage ready to deliver a message that lands. And it's not just me. You're lands. And it's not just me. You're lands. And it's not just me. You're going to hear from Mark Clark, Faith going to hear from Mark Clark, Faith going to hear from Mark Clark, Faith Yuri Cho, Megan Fate Marshman, Noah Yuri Cho, Megan Fate Marshman, Noah Yuri Cho, Megan Fate Marshman, Noah Herren, and Adam Mesa. Until Wednesday, Herren, and Adam Mesa. Until Wednesday, Herren, and Adam Mesa. Until Wednesday, July 15th, there are two ways to join. July 15th, there are two ways to join. July 15th, there are two ways to join. First, you can grab the course on its First, you can grab the course on its First, you can grab the course on its own. You'll get $50 off or I highly own. You'll get $50 off or I highly own. You'll get $50 off or I highly recommend an all access membership to recommend an all access membership to recommend an all access membership to the Art of Leadership Academy for just the Art of Leadership Academy for just the Art of Leadership Academy for just $20 the first month. After July 15th, $20 the first month. After July 15th, $20 the first month. After July 15th, that pricing is gone. So click the link that pricing is gone. So click the link that pricing is gone. So click the link in the description of this episode or in the description of this episode or in the description of this episode or visit the artfreaching.com to join visit the artfreaching.com to join visit the artfreaching.com to join before July 15th. Sunday mornings can before July 15th. Sunday mornings can before July 15th. Sunday mornings can feel different. Let's make it happen. feel different. Let's make it happen. feel different. Let's make it happen. You know, to the extent that you're You know, to the extent that you're You know, to the extent that you're comfortable sharing, we've talked about comfortable sharing, we've talked about comfortable sharing, we've talked about cancer. We've talked about hitting the cancer. We've talked about hitting the cancer. We've talked about hitting the wall. We've talked about mistakes. We wall. We've talked about mistakes. We wall. We've talked about mistakes. We don't need to go revisit that. But one don't need to go revisit that. But one don't need to go revisit that. But one of the advantages you and I have because of the advantages you and I have because of the advantages you and I have because we've got a few decades under our belt we've got a few decades under our belt we've got a few decades under our belt is you can look back and see patterns, is you can look back and see patterns, is you can look back and see patterns, right? We have the gift of pattern right? We have the gift of pattern right? We have the gift of pattern recognition. And maybe this is n I don't recognition. And maybe this is n I don't recognition. And maybe this is n I don't see a pattern. But when you were ready see a pattern. But when you were ready see a pattern. But when you were ready to start writing those letters of to start writing those letters of to start writing those letters of resignation or you told Lauren that's resignation or you told Lauren that's resignation or you told Lauren that's it, I'm done.

it, I'm done. it, I'm done. >> Well, one time Lauren told me [laughter] >> Well, one time Lauren told me [laughter] >> Well, one time Lauren told me [laughter] so that's a whole different story. One so that's a whole different story. One so that's a whole different story. One time she time she time she >> That's a very different thing. >> That's a very different thing. >> That's a very different thing. >> I want I'm done. I did not sign up for >> I want I'm done. I did not sign up for >> I want I'm done. I did not sign up for this. Whatever comes from this does not this. Whatever comes from this does not this. Whatever comes from this does not does not make does not make does not make >> what led Lauren to say that if you can >> what led Lauren to say that if you can >> what led Lauren to say that if you can talk about it. talk about it. talk about it. >> Yeah, that was 2019. There had been an >> Yeah, that was 2019. There had been an >> Yeah, that was 2019. There had been an article written in the New York Times article written in the New York Times article written in the New York Times about us that that wasn't true or fair. about us that that wasn't true or fair. about us that that wasn't true or fair. Um, but man, it got some clicks. And Um, but man, it got some clicks. And Um, but man, it got some clicks. And when your kids are teenagers and you're when your kids are teenagers and you're when your kids are teenagers and you're in the New York Times and I was already in the New York Times and I was already in the New York Times and I was already running on fumes, I had just started running on fumes, I had just started running on fumes, I had just started sbatical and the elders had called me on sbatical and the elders had called me on sbatical and the elders had called me on sabbatical. I was scheduled to be for a sabbatical. I was scheduled to be for a sabbatical. I was scheduled to be for a week with my family in Colorado the next week with my family in Colorado the next week with my family in Colorado the next week and they're like we need you to week and they're like we need you to week and they're like we need you to come back in like you're going to be you come back in like you're going to be you come back in like you're going to be you you have to be the one that stands on you have to be the one that stands on you have to be the one that stands on stage and addresses this. And so I stage and addresses this. And so I stage and addresses this. And so I wasn't even in town. I was spending like wasn't even in town. I was spending like wasn't even in town. I was spending like I was trying to spend just a week by I was trying to spend just a week by I was trying to spend just a week by myself with the Lord to kick off myself with the Lord to kick off myself with the Lord to kick off sabbatical. And so I fly home. I walk in sabbatical. And so I fly home. I walk in sabbatical. And so I fly home. I walk in and my wife nearly and my wife nearly and my wife nearly crumbles into my arms and she's like, crumbles into my arms and she's like, crumbles into my arms and she's like, "Hey, I'm I want you to quit. I want you "Hey, I'm I want you to quit. I want you "Hey, I'm I want you to quit. I want you to quit like today." And so I said, to quit like today." And so I said, to quit like today." And so I said, "Okay, if you'll how about this, babe?

"Okay, if you'll how about this, babe? "Okay, if you'll how about this, babe? Give me three weeks. If in three weeks Give me three weeks. If in three weeks Give me three weeks. If in three weeks you still want me to do it, I I will you still want me to do it, I I will you still want me to do it, I I will turn in that resignation." turn in that resignation." turn in that resignation." >> And then I called Josh and Brian, >> And then I called Josh and Brian, >> And then I called Josh and Brian, chairman of the Elder Board and other chairman of the Elder Board and other chairman of the Elder Board and other lead pastor, and I just said, "Hey, lead pastor, and I just said, "Hey, lead pastor, and I just said, "Hey, happy to come in. I I I understand and happy to come in. I I I understand and happy to come in. I I I understand and believe that it does need to be me that believe that it does need to be me that believe that it does need to be me that steps up and and owns what we need to steps up and and owns what we need to steps up and and owns what we need to own and and clarify what we need to own and and clarify what we need to own and and clarify what we need to clarify. But if I'm not in Colorado with clarify. But if I'm not in Colorado with clarify. But if I'm not in Colorado with my family by Monday, the likelihood of my family by Monday, the likelihood of my family by Monday, the likelihood of me being the pastor here at the end of me being the pastor here at the end of me being the pastor here at the end of this break, I think drops to zero. And this break, I think drops to zero. And this break, I think drops to zero. And they were awesome. They were just like, they were awesome. They were just like, they were awesome. They were just like, "Well, let's get you to Colorado then." "Well, let's get you to Colorado then." "Well, let's get you to Colorado then." Um, so, uh, I I went up I I led our Um, so, uh, I I went up I I led our Um, so, uh, I I went up I I led our services that weekend. They reordered services that weekend. They reordered services that weekend. They reordered the service. So worship and all our the service. So worship and all our the service. So worship and all our elements were after uh I both addressed elements were after uh I both addressed elements were after uh I both addressed that and preached and and then I walked that and preached and and then I walked that and preached and and then I walked off stage after that trusted my team uh off stage after that trusted my team uh off stage after that trusted my team uh went and got on a plane and because went and got on a plane and because went and got on a plane and because their flight got delayed actually beat their flight got delayed actually beat their flight got delayed actually beat them to Colorado and um and so was them to Colorado and um and so was them to Colorado and um and so was waiting for them at baggage claim when waiting for them at baggage claim when waiting for them at baggage claim when they got off and uh 3 weeks later I they got off and uh 3 weeks later I they got off and uh 3 weeks later I don't know that Lauren was giddy about don't know that Lauren was giddy about don't know that Lauren was giddy about it but she she she had backed off the it but she she she had backed off the it but she she she had backed off the I'm done.

I'm done. I'm done. I think we probably talked about that I think we probably talked about that I think we probably talked about that >> situation before on this podcast. So if >> situation before on this podcast. So if >> situation before on this podcast. So if people want to Google it, they can people want to Google it, they can people want to Google it, they can figure out what it was. figure out what it was. figure out what it was. >> It was the allegations that really you >> It was the allegations that really you >> It was the allegations that really you and I have talked about that offline and and I have talked about that offline and and I have talked about that offline and online and but that is that is that is online and but that is that is that is online and but that is that is that is the battle man. the battle man. the battle man. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I mean whether it's the local paper >> And I mean whether it's the local paper >> And I mean whether it's the local paper or the New York Times or an allegation or the New York Times or an allegation or the New York Times or an allegation brought up at a congregational meeting brought up at a congregational meeting brought up at a congregational meeting is just so painful. is just so painful. is just so painful. >> Yeah. And sometimes it's true and you >> Yeah. And sometimes it's true and you >> Yeah. And sometimes it's true and you need to step back and sometimes it's not need to step back and sometimes it's not need to step back and sometimes it's not true but people are going to believe it true but people are going to believe it true but people are going to believe it is true. is true. is true. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So thank you for that. Thank you for >> So thank you for that. Thank you for >> So thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that. And again it makes people sharing that. And again it makes people sharing that. And again it makes people realize, oh, we're not alone. realize, oh, we're not alone. realize, oh, we're not alone. >> Yeah. Well, I I certainly want the >> Yeah. Well, I I certainly want the >> Yeah. Well, I I certainly want the brothers to know they're not alone. brothers to know they're not alone. brothers to know they're not alone. >> Like it Yeah. I understand. Yeah. we we >> Like it Yeah. I understand. Yeah. we we >> Like it Yeah. I understand. Yeah. we we said yes to a calling on our life said yes to a calling on our life said yes to a calling on our life without fully understanding both the without fully understanding both the without fully understanding both the blessings and the pain that was going to blessings and the pain that was going to blessings and the pain that was going to be involved in that. Uh and the pain can be involved in that. Uh and the pain can be involved in that. Uh and the pain can be super disorienting for guys. Um I be super disorienting for guys. Um I be super disorienting for guys. Um I know it it has been for me know it it has been for me know it it has been for me >> in becoming like Jesus. You talk about >> in becoming like Jesus. You talk about >> in becoming like Jesus. You talk about idols and you mentioned Lauren. One of idols and you mentioned Lauren. One of idols and you mentioned Lauren. One of the idols can be marriage and we just the idols can be marriage and we just the idols can be marriage and we just expect it to bear too much and it just expect it to bear too much and it just expect it to bear too much and it just can't take the weight. You and Lauren can't take the weight. You and Lauren can't take the weight. You and Lauren had a really difficult seven years that had a really difficult seven years that had a really difficult seven years that you open up about. Do you want to talk you open up about. Do you want to talk you open up about. Do you want to talk about that? I mean, Tony and I, too.

about that? I mean, Tony and I, too. about that? I mean, Tony and I, too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Really difficult. I wish it was seven >> Really difficult. I wish it was seven >> Really difficult. I wish it was seven years. It was a little bit longer. years. It was a little bit longer. years. It was a little bit longer. >> Yeah. Well, and I always want to say >> Yeah. Well, and I always want to say >> Yeah. Well, and I always want to say I've learned in preaching that I need to I've learned in preaching that I need to I've learned in preaching that I need to make the caveat when I'm saying that make the caveat when I'm saying that make the caveat when I'm saying that that I know for some of you, your dream that I know for some of you, your dream that I know for some of you, your dream would have been seven years because would have been seven years because would have been seven years because you're at your 20 and you're still in you're at your 20 and you're still in you're at your 20 and you're still in it. But I, you know, Lauren and I, I it. But I, you know, Lauren and I, I it. But I, you know, Lauren and I, I love the unity candle uh at a wedding. love the unity candle uh at a wedding. love the unity candle uh at a wedding. Uh, but I don't think anybody's really Uh, but I don't think anybody's really Uh, but I don't think anybody's really thinking a lot about it. Like each of thinking a lot about it. Like each of thinking a lot about it. Like each of those single candles, they represent those single candles, they represent those single candles, they represent plausibility structures like how you plausibility structures like how you plausibility structures like how you load the dishwasher, what sex is load the dishwasher, what sex is load the dishwasher, what sex is supposed to be, um, what vacations look supposed to be, um, what vacations look supposed to be, um, what vacations look like, what days off look like, who does like, what days off look like, who does like, what days off look like, who does what around the house. The each of those what around the house. The each of those what around the house. The each of those and and then you light the unity kind of and and then you light the unity kind of and and then you light the unity kind of going, God's making something new. He's going, God's making something new. He's going, God's making something new. He's taking these ingredients and he's making taking these ingredients and he's making taking these ingredients and he's making something new. And sometimes something new. And sometimes something new. And sometimes they'll blow out those other two they'll blow out those other two they'll blow out those other two candles. If I'm officiating a wedding, candles. If I'm officiating a wedding, candles. If I'm officiating a wedding, I'm like, "Do not blow out those. You're I'm like, "Do not blow out those. You're I'm like, "Do not blow out those. You're still you. You're still bring all that still you. You're still bring all that still you. You're still bring all that to bear in here." And Lauren and I, I to bear in here." And Lauren and I, I to bear in here." And Lauren and I, I was a deeply broken man thinking that was a deeply broken man thinking that was a deeply broken man thinking that Lauren was going to save those parts of Lauren was going to save those parts of Lauren was going to save those parts of me that that were unhealed.

me that that were unhealed. me that that were unhealed. Lauren and and this is all public, so Lauren and and this is all public, so Lauren and and this is all public, so I'm never sharing anybody's story that I'm never sharing anybody's story that I'm never sharing anybody's story that didn't already out there on the web. Um, didn't already out there on the web. Um, didn't already out there on the web. Um, Lauren's people pleasing and Lauren's people pleasing and Lauren's people pleasing and perfectionism. That that's how she's perfectionism. That that's how she's perfectionism. That that's how she's built. And I mean, like straight A built. And I mean, like straight A built. And I mean, like straight A student, you know, her whole life, two student, you know, her whole life, two student, you know, her whole life, two B's through college. If she was on with B's through college. If she was on with B's through college. If she was on with us, she'd tell you why those weren't her us, she'd tell you why those weren't her us, she'd tell you why those weren't her fault and maybe still feel some strong fault and maybe still feel some strong fault and maybe still feel some strong emotions about those B's. And so, here I emotions about those B's. And so, here I emotions about those B's. And so, here I am expecting her to be what she cannot am expecting her to be what she cannot am expecting her to be what she cannot be. And here she is believing she's be. And here she is believing she's be. And here she is believing she's supposed to be more than she is. And to supposed to be more than she is. And to supposed to be more than she is. And to my shame, I nearly crushed her. I I my shame, I nearly crushed her. I I my shame, I nearly crushed her. I I mean, she's just one of the more mean, she's just one of the more mean, she's just one of the more powerful, beautiful, strong, prophetic powerful, beautiful, strong, prophetic powerful, beautiful, strong, prophetic women I've ever met. And I nearly women I've ever met. And I nearly women I've ever met. And I nearly snuffed it out of her by asking her to snuffed it out of her by asking her to snuffed it out of her by asking her to heal what only Jesus can heal. And so, heal what only Jesus can heal. And so, heal what only Jesus can heal. And so, if she was on, she would talk more about if she was on, she would talk more about if she was on, she would talk more about what she brought. But I I'm still of the what she brought. But I I'm still of the what she brought. But I I'm still of the position that man, the weight I was position that man, the weight I was position that man, the weight I was putting on her was impossible. Beautiful putting on her was impossible. Beautiful putting on her was impossible. Beautiful woman, crummy god.

beautiful woman, crummy god. Yeah, she beautiful woman, crummy god. Yeah, she she can't was it Keller? I remember a she can't was it Keller? I remember a she can't was it Keller? I remember a Keller sermon and uh he was probably Keller sermon and uh he was probably Keller sermon and uh he was probably quoting someone else who I've never been quoting someone else who I've never been quoting someone else who I've never been able to trace down, but he said, you able to trace down, but he said, you able to trace down, but he said, you know, if you look at the world since we know, if you look at the world since we know, if you look at the world since we become a post-Christian culture and he's become a post-Christian culture and he's become a post-Christian culture and he's preaching in New York, we've taken all preaching in New York, we've taken all preaching in New York, we've taken all the ambition, goals, hopes that we the ambition, goals, hopes that we the ambition, goals, hopes that we should have rightly in God through should have rightly in God through should have rightly in God through Christ. Christ. Christ. >> Yeah. and we put them on a spouse or >> Yeah. and we put them on a spouse or >> Yeah. and we put them on a spouse or even a wedding. You look at the even a wedding. You look at the even a wedding. You look at the Instagram wedding, the proposal, the Instagram wedding, the proposal, the Instagram wedding, the proposal, the photographers, the the decor. I mean, photographers, the the decor. I mean, photographers, the the decor. I mean, I've got people I know who are flying I've got people I know who are flying I've got people I know who are flying out to a bachelor party in Mexico for out to a bachelor party in Mexico for out to a bachelor party in Mexico for the weekend. I'm like, the weekend. I'm like, the weekend. I'm like, >> there's no bachelor party in Mexico for >> there's no bachelor party in Mexico for >> there's no bachelor party in Mexico for me, man. It was pretty lowkey, but like me, man. It was pretty lowkey, but like me, man. It was pretty lowkey, but like the world the world the world >> there's so much weight on everything >> there's so much weight on everything >> there's so much weight on everything right now. right now. right now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it can't bear. You talk about those >> And it can't bear. You talk about those >> And it can't bear. You talk about those false gods in in your book. So, what are false gods in in your book. So, what are false gods in in your book. So, what are some other false gods that you identify? some other false gods that you identify? some other false gods that you identify? >> You know, it's funny that you mentioned >> You know, it's funny that you mentioned >> You know, it's funny that you mentioned Keller. I borrowed liberally from Keller. I borrowed liberally from Keller. I borrowed liberally from Keller, which what's funny because I Keller, which what's funny because I Keller, which what's funny because I think Keller was borrowing maybe from think Keller was borrowing maybe from think Keller was borrowing maybe from Dick Kaufman who was there for a while Dick Kaufman who was there for a while Dick Kaufman who was there for a while before he went to Kell. The first time I before he went to Kell. The first time I before he went to Kell. The first time I ever heard the source surface idol stuff ever heard the source surface idol stuff ever heard the source surface idol stuff was Dick Kaufman at like an exponential was Dick Kaufman at like an exponential was Dick Kaufman at like an exponential conference breakout.

conference breakout. conference breakout. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Yeah. And and so, you know, I talk a lot >> Yeah. And and so, you know, I talk a lot >> Yeah. And and so, you know, I talk a lot about the the source idols of comfort about the the source idols of comfort about the the source idols of comfort and power and approval and and how those and power and approval and and how those and power and approval and and how those are really underneath all the little are really underneath all the little are really underneath all the little besetting things that that we want to besetting things that that we want to besetting things that that we want to play around with. And and you had better play around with. And and you had better play around with. And and you had better let the Holy Spirit uproot those rather let the Holy Spirit uproot those rather let the Holy Spirit uproot those rather than just kind of view them from the than just kind of view them from the than just kind of view them from the lens of morality because that's just lens of morality because that's just lens of morality because that's just like taking a lawn mower and running like taking a lawn mower and running like taking a lawn mower and running over weeds. just give it 48 hours and over weeds. just give it 48 hours and over weeds. just give it 48 hours and it'll be right back and say so the the it'll be right back and say so the the it'll be right back and say so the the hope and goal, the promise of the gospel hope and goal, the promise of the gospel hope and goal, the promise of the gospel is that those can be uprooted. So so you is that those can be uprooted. So so you is that those can be uprooted. So so you you don't need to mow every 48 hours, you don't need to mow every 48 hours, you don't need to mow every 48 hours, but your heart's actually been but your heart's actually been but your heart's actually been transformed. transformed. transformed. >> Yeah. You also uh I think it was Keller >> Yeah. You also uh I think it was Keller >> Yeah. You also uh I think it was Keller because we all borrow from Keller. because we all borrow from Keller. because we all borrow from Keller. Hopefully we do. [laughter] Hopefully we do. [laughter] Hopefully we do. [laughter] Left such a rich legacy. Left such a rich legacy. Left such a rich legacy. >> Oh man. Right. Uh uh Keller I think >> Oh man. Right. Uh uh Keller I think >> Oh man. Right. Uh uh Keller I think cited uh Whitfield's 1738 letter and you cited uh Whitfield's 1738 letter and you cited uh Whitfield's 1738 letter and you elaborate on their repentance practice.

elaborate on their repentance practice. elaborate on their repentance practice. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What what does that look like? >> What what does that look like? >> What what does that look like? >> Are you asking me personally or are you >> Are you asking me personally or are you >> Are you asking me personally or are you asking asking asking >> Yeah. For you? Well, describe them and >> Yeah. For you? Well, describe them and >> Yeah. For you? Well, describe them and then how you've embraced that as a then how you've embraced that as a then how you've embraced that as a person. So they had a whole and and this person. So they had a whole and and this person. So they had a whole and and this is where like trellis vine structure is where like trellis vine structure is where like trellis vine structure versus organic I think really matters versus organic I think really matters versus organic I think really matters where where the church has to have like where where the church has to have like where where the church has to have like a trellis for repentance space for it a trellis for repentance space for it a trellis for repentance space for it times for it consistently and a lot of times for it consistently and a lot of times for it consistently and a lot of teaching on it I mean Luther right teaching on it I mean Luther right teaching on it I mean Luther right that's his first thesis of the 95 right that's his first thesis of the 95 right that's his first thesis of the 95 right all of life is one of repentance so so all of life is one of repentance so so all of life is one of repentance so so that really what marks us I was pretty that really what marks us I was pretty that really what marks us I was pretty aggressive in that section Like I'm aggressive in that section Like I'm aggressive in that section Like I'm saying I if there's no confession and saying I if there's no confession and saying I if there's no confession and repentance in your life, then there's repentance in your life, then there's repentance in your life, then there's darkness in you. Like I'm I would I I I darkness in you. Like I'm I would I I I darkness in you. Like I'm I would I I I want you to have assurance of salvation, want you to have assurance of salvation, want you to have assurance of salvation, but no confession, no repentance, I but no confession, no repentance, I but no confession, no repentance, I don't know what your objective evidence don't know what your objective evidence don't know what your objective evidence of salvation is, but like the spirit in of salvation is, but like the spirit in of salvation is, but like the spirit in me I is almost daily. It's happened to me I is almost daily. It's happened to me I is almost daily. It's happened to me twice today, but where man, I just me twice today, but where man, I just me twice today, but where man, I just shaded something in a way that wasn't as shaded something in a way that wasn't as shaded something in a way that wasn't as accurate as it needed to be. And maybe I accurate as it needed to be. And maybe I accurate as it needed to be. And maybe I shaded it because it made me look shaded it because it made me look shaded it because it made me look better. Maybe it like the the spirit's better. Maybe it like the the spirit's better. Maybe it like the the spirit's like, "Is this is this who is this who like, "Is this is this who is this who like, "Is this is this who is this who I've made you to be? Do you think I need I've made you to be? Do you think I need I've made you to be? Do you think I need your help? Uh or do you think that that your help? Uh or do you think that that your help? Uh or do you think that that just what I'm doing is what I'm doing?"

just what I'm doing is what I'm doing?" just what I'm doing is what I'm doing?" And then what an opportunity. So And then what an opportunity. So And then what an opportunity. So confession and repentance are confession and repentance are confession and repentance are invitations to greater intimacy. It's invitations to greater intimacy. It's invitations to greater intimacy. It's not discipline. Like conviction is never not discipline. Like conviction is never not discipline. Like conviction is never discipline. It's always an invitation. discipline. It's always an invitation. discipline. It's always an invitation. So to receive the invitation of greater So to receive the invitation of greater So to receive the invitation of greater intimacy with God, I have to be fast to intimacy with God, I have to be fast to intimacy with God, I have to be fast to repent and fast to confess. And where repent and fast to confess. And where repent and fast to confess. And where I'm fast, quick to repent and confess, I'm fast, quick to repent and confess, I'm fast, quick to repent and confess, it I get into the presence of Jesus more it I get into the presence of Jesus more it I get into the presence of Jesus more quickly and I'm transformed more quickly and I'm transformed more quickly and I'm transformed more thoroughly so that repentance becomes thoroughly so that repentance becomes thoroughly so that repentance becomes the primary marker of the Christian the primary marker of the Christian the primary marker of the Christian life. And and so I I wanted to put a ton life. And and so I I wanted to put a ton life. And and so I I wanted to put a ton of weight on it because you're not going of weight on it because you're not going of weight on it because you're not going to move through the coil except through to move through the coil except through to move through the coil except through confession and repentance. confession and repentance. confession and repentance. You know, it's interesting and and your You know, it's interesting and and your You know, it's interesting and and your experience might have been different experience might have been different experience might have been different growing up, but you know, I grew up growing up, but you know, I grew up growing up, but you know, I grew up Presbyterian. Um, and the the nice thing Presbyterian. Um, and the the nice thing Presbyterian. Um, and the the nice thing about Presbyterianism, there's so many about Presbyterianism, there's so many about Presbyterianism, there's so many good things, but one is the four-fold good things, but one is the four-fold good things, but one is the four-fold order of worship. So, where I was order of worship. So, where I was order of worship. So, where I was trained in seminary, like Keller, there trained in seminary, like Keller, there trained in seminary, like Keller, there was always a prayer of approach and was always a prayer of approach and was always a prayer of approach and confession. You cannot approach God. You confession. You cannot approach God. You confession. You cannot approach God. You can adore him, but then you have to can adore him, but then you have to can adore him, but then you have to confess. And then I kind of moved into confess. And then I kind of moved into confess. And then I kind of moved into evangelical world. And what I've evangelical world. And what I've evangelical world. And what I've noticed, Matt, [snorts] is for 25 or 30 noticed, Matt, [snorts] is for 25 or 30 noticed, Matt, [snorts] is for 25 or 30 years, a generation or two, prayer years, a generation or two, prayer years, a generation or two, prayer almost left the services. It was almost almost left the services. It was almost almost left the services. It was almost let's just clear the set, get the band let's just clear the set, get the band let's just clear the set, get the band out of the way so the sermon can start.

out of the way so the sermon can start. out of the way so the sermon can start. And it was short and prefuncter. But And it was short and prefuncter. But And it was short and prefuncter. But when you look at a move of God, what when you look at a move of God, what when you look at a move of God, what happened to you in 2017, what's happened to you in 2017, what's happened to you in 2017, what's happening in theite movement, what's happening in theite movement, what's happening in theite movement, what's happening at your church, at Village happening at your church, at Village happening at your church, at Village Church, and in the revival work that Church, and in the revival work that Church, and in the revival work that we're starting to see. And you've we're starting to see. And you've we're starting to see. And you've already talked about it four or five already talked about it four or five already talked about it four or five times just dropping it as like you know times just dropping it as like you know times just dropping it as like you know the elders started praying and the elders started praying and the elders started praying and confessing and then confessing confessing and then confessing confessing and then confessing confessing confessing and confessing out confessing confessing and confessing out confessing confessing and confessing out loud. loud. loud. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That that is a hallmark of worship. >> That that is a hallmark of worship. >> That that is a hallmark of worship. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's a hallmark of the Christian >> And it's a hallmark of the Christian >> And it's a hallmark of the Christian life. I'm wondering how you integrate life. I'm wondering how you integrate life. I'm wondering how you integrate that these days into the life of the that these days into the life of the that these days into the life of the village. village. village. >> Yeah. So multiple ways, multiple spaces. >> Yeah. So multiple ways, multiple spaces. >> Yeah. So multiple ways, multiple spaces. Um we we have we we have created space Um we we have we we have created space Um we we have we we have created space like we have removed chairs from the like we have removed chairs from the like we have removed chairs from the worship center to create space for far worship center to create space for far worship center to create space for far more frequent repentance. Um and and more frequent repentance. Um and and more frequent repentance. Um and and then we are adding now those lurggical then we are adding now those lurggical then we are adding now those lurggical prayers of confession and repentance prayers of confession and repentance prayers of confession and repentance into the set. That's a brand new thing into the set. That's a brand new thing into the set. That's a brand new thing that we've just started having the that we've just started having the that we've just started having the conversation about. Like how do we conversation about. Like how do we conversation about. Like how do we create a a service flow that's telling create a a service flow that's telling create a a service flow that's telling the story of the gospel as we work the story of the gospel as we work the story of the gospel as we work through it while creating enough space through it while creating enough space through it while creating enough space for us? It's it's while Andrew Wilson for us? It's it's while Andrew Wilson for us? It's it's while Andrew Wilson wrote a book wrote the forward for it. I wrote a book wrote the forward for it. I wrote a book wrote the forward for it. I need to go back and revisit it. um oh need to go back and revisit it. um oh need to go back and revisit it. um oh what do you call spirit and sacrament uh what do you call spirit and sacrament uh what do you call spirit and sacrament uh sacrament and spirit or something like sacrament and spirit or something like sacrament and spirit or something like that where he's arguing that that both that where he's arguing that that both that where he's arguing that that both of these things are really profoundly

of these things are really profoundly of these things are really profoundly formative in the life of a local church formative in the life of a local church formative in the life of a local church but we tend to just pick one based on but we tend to just pick one based on but we tend to just pick one based on preferences or which really robs the preferences or which really robs the preferences or which really robs the church of its beauty and diversity. So church of its beauty and diversity. So church of its beauty and diversity. So we're we should be people that lament we're we should be people that lament we're we should be people that lament and dance um confess and rejoice. And he and dance um confess and rejoice. And he and dance um confess and rejoice. And he calls it he uses the illustration in the calls it he uses the illustration in the calls it he uses the illustration in the book if I'm remembering right of a book if I'm remembering right of a book if I'm remembering right of a trampoline. You need to get depth get trampoline. You need to get depth get trampoline. You need to get depth get low confession repentance because it's low confession repentance because it's low confession repentance because it's going to take you even higher in your going to take you even higher in your going to take you even higher in your worship prayer and rejoicing. worship prayer and rejoicing. worship prayer and rejoicing. >> When you say lurggical are those >> When you say lurggical are those >> When you say lurggical are those responsive prayers? Is that what you're responsive prayers? Is that what you're responsive prayers? Is that what you're doing? doing? doing? >> We we read with they're corporate >> We we read with they're corporate >> We we read with they're corporate prayers. Okay. is how it's not even it's prayers. Okay. is how it's not even it's prayers. Okay. is how it's not even it's not even responsive as like I read not even responsive as like I read not even responsive as like I read apart, they read apart, right? apart, they read apart, right? apart, they read apart, right? >> We've already done all of those for >> We've already done all of those for >> We've already done all of those for years. It's just a corporate prayer years. It's just a corporate prayer years. It's just a corporate prayer where we stand together and we recite it where we stand together and we recite it where we stand together and we recite it together and I'll usually pull a phrase together and I'll usually pull a phrase together and I'll usually pull a phrase from it before we get started to set our from it before we get started to set our from it before we get started to set our hearts and and then let's read this hearts and and then let's read this hearts and and then let's read this prayer together. prayer together. prayer together. >> Not a bad idea. I mean, you're taking me >> Not a bad idea. I mean, you're taking me >> Not a bad idea. I mean, you're taking me back to my childhood.

back to my childhood. back to my childhood. >> Yeah. It's funny. It's like they were on >> Yeah. It's funny. It's like they were on >> Yeah. It's funny. It's like they were on to something in all our innovation. to something in all our innovation. to something in all our innovation. >> You know, maybe they weren't as dumb in >> You know, maybe they weren't as dumb in >> You know, maybe they weren't as dumb in the Do you know that, Matt? Maybe maybe the Do you know that, Matt? Maybe maybe the Do you know that, Matt? Maybe maybe they weren't quite as stupid as we they weren't quite as stupid as we they weren't quite as stupid as we thought. thought. thought. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um any other false saviors that you see >> Um any other false saviors that you see >> Um any other false saviors that you see at work either in your life or the at work either in your life or the at work either in your life or the church as a whole? I'm thinking about church as a whole? I'm thinking about church as a whole? I'm thinking about everybody who's watching listen. If if everybody who's watching listen. If if everybody who's watching listen. If if I'm talking primary to primarily to I'm talking primary to primarily to I'm talking primary to primarily to leaders, I think approval is the hard leaders, I think approval is the hard leaders, I think approval is the hard one that guys want to be approved of. one that guys want to be approved of. one that guys want to be approved of. And that's going to cut your I mean, And that's going to cut your I mean, And that's going to cut your I mean, it's going to take your prophetic edge it's going to take your prophetic edge it's going to take your prophetic edge away. And you're not going to say the away. And you're not going to say the away. And you're not going to say the thing that you need to say to be thing that you need to say to be thing that you need to say to be faithful to the full council of God. faithful to the full council of God. faithful to the full council of God. You're not going to talk about sin a You're not going to talk about sin a You're not going to talk about sin a lot. You're not going to talk about lot. You're not going to talk about lot. You're not going to talk about repentance a lot. You're going to repentance a lot. You're going to repentance a lot. You're going to reframe sin as struggle. you're not reframe sin as struggle. you're not reframe sin as struggle. you're not going to be as bold as you need to be I going to be as bold as you need to be I going to be as bold as you need to be I if you've got to have their approval or if you've got to have their approval or if you've got to have their approval or even the approval of your theological even the approval of your theological even the approval of your theological tribe. that that's the one that I see tribe. that that's the one that I see tribe. that that's the one that I see the number of guys that I'm talking to the number of guys that I'm talking to the number of guys that I'm talking to right now offline who are so hungry for right now offline who are so hungry for right now offline who are so hungry for the things that the Holy Spirit's doing the things that the Holy Spirit's doing the things that the Holy Spirit's doing in this day but so nervous how their in this day but so nervous how their in this day but so nervous how their outside community is going to think outside community is going to think outside community is going to think about how their network or denomination about how their network or denomination about how their network or denomination or you know what's Acts 29 going to or you know what's Acts 29 going to or you know what's Acts 29 going to think about this think about this think about this >> or heroes are going to think about that >> or heroes are going to think about that >> or heroes are going to think about that and then I'm just like brothers you well and then I'm just like brothers you well and then I'm just like brothers you well pick one then pick one pick the approval pick one then pick one pick the approval pick one then pick one pick the approval of those guys at this moment but I to me of those guys at this moment but I to me of those guys at this moment but I to me that's a if we're putting those two that's a if we're putting those two that's a if we're putting those two things on a scale, brother, I I just things on a scale, brother, I I just things on a scale, brother, I I just think one should throw the other one, think one should throw the other one, think one should throw the other one, you know, way into the air, like want

you know, way into the air, like want you know, way into the air, like want the presence and power of God over the the presence and power of God over the the presence and power of God over the approval of your heroes, denomination, approval of your heroes, denomination, approval of your heroes, denomination, opportunity to speak places. Like, man, opportunity to speak places. Like, man, opportunity to speak places. Like, man, I man, I I had to wrestle that one to I man, I I had to wrestle that one to I man, I I had to wrestle that one to the ground myself. Uh I mean when I had the ground myself. Uh I mean when I had the ground myself. Uh I mean when I had cancer cancer cancer um I was I was invited to come to T4G um I was I was invited to come to T4G um I was I was invited to come to T4G together for the gospel just that think together for the gospel just that think together for the gospel just that think serious reformed Mecca you know hourlong serious reformed Mecca you know hourlong serious reformed Mecca you know hourlong sermons old you know eight you know 17th sermons old you know eight you know 17th sermons old you know eight you know 17th 16th century hymns to a piano just the 16th century hymns to a piano just the 16th century hymns to a piano just the voices really beautiful and I was sick I voices really beautiful and I was sick I voices really beautiful and I was sick I mean I was still bald you could see my mean I was still bald you could see my mean I was still bald you could see my scar they asked me to come share I scar they asked me to come share I scar they asked me to come share I shared John Piper prayed over me and and shared John Piper prayed over me and and shared John Piper prayed over me and and just said the church was going to need just said the church was going to need just said the church was going to need good hands hands. These are good hands. good hands hands. These are good hands. good hands hands. These are good hands. And and so then all of a sudden, I And and so then all of a sudden, I And and so then all of a sudden, I became kind of the reformed young poster became kind of the reformed young poster became kind of the reformed young poster boy. And um and I didn't have any boy. And um and I didn't have any boy. And um and I didn't have any problem with that at that time. But then problem with that at that time. But then problem with that at that time. But then as I began to kind of learn and and move as I began to kind of learn and and move as I began to kind of learn and and move and go back towards what I think is more and go back towards what I think is more and go back towards what I think is more my native tongue, my native tongue, my native tongue, um it it like all of a sudden I'm um it it like all of a sudden I'm um it it like all of a sudden I'm there's a lot of animosity towards me there's a lot of animosity towards me there's a lot of animosity towards me and I'm um man I'm not what I once was and I'm um man I'm not what I once was and I'm um man I'm not what I once was and I'm not necessarily a trustworthy and I'm not necessarily a trustworthy and I'm not necessarily a trustworthy voice and I'm not and even though I'm voice and I'm not and even though I'm voice and I'm not and even though I'm still preaching through books of the still preaching through books of the still preaching through books of the Bible, even though I'm still happily Bible, even though I'm still happily Bible, even though I'm still happily reformed, uh I'm not angry about the reformed, uh I'm not angry about the reformed, uh I'm not angry about the fact that God's able to save um and I fact that God's able to save um and I fact that God's able to save um and I don't don't don't >> You're not reformed enough you don't and >> You're not reformed enough you don't and >> You're not reformed enough you don't and but it is I think once you name the but it is I think once you name the but it is I think once you name the doctrine uh anything secondary or doctrine uh anything secondary or doctrine uh anything secondary or tertiary if you're plotting it on a

tertiary if you're plotting it on a tertiary if you're plotting it on a scale and you have to be reformed enough scale and you have to be reformed enough scale and you have to be reformed enough or complimentarian enough or you know or complimentarian enough or you know or complimentarian enough or you know continuationist enough or a cessationist continuationist enough or a cessationist continuationist enough or a cessationist enough I'm I am at the age stage where I enough I'm I am at the age stage where I enough I'm I am at the age stage where I am uninterested in that conversation am uninterested in that conversation am uninterested in that conversation >> you you quote Dallas Willard grace is >> you you quote Dallas Willard grace is >> you you quote Dallas Willard grace is not opposed to effort it's opposed to not opposed to effort it's opposed to not opposed to effort it's opposed to earning earning earning So, how have you navigated that in your So, how have you navigated that in your So, how have you navigated that in your own life? own life? own life? >> Oh, man. Daily. [laughter] >> Oh, man. Daily. [laughter] >> Oh, man. Daily. [laughter] Daily. And and I write about this in the Daily. And and I write about this in the Daily. And and I write about this in the book. book. book. Like a lie that I discovered in my 30s. Like a lie that I discovered in my 30s. Like a lie that I discovered in my 30s. Um, not prefrontal cortex stuff, just a Um, not prefrontal cortex stuff, just a Um, not prefrontal cortex stuff, just a way I'm operating. Um, is that I'm not way I'm operating. Um, is that I'm not way I'm operating. Um, is that I'm not I'm useful, I'm useful, I'm useful, not necessarily lovable. And so what not necessarily lovable. And so what not necessarily lovable. And so what that lie creates is a pretty sick work that lie creates is a pretty sick work that lie creates is a pretty sick work ethic um and a desire to build and win. ethic um and a desire to build and win. ethic um and a desire to build and win. All that's that's gold. That's not All that's that's gold. That's not All that's that's gold. That's not shadow. There's nothing wrong with that. shadow. There's nothing wrong with that. shadow. There's nothing wrong with that. Except I was coming from a place of if I Except I was coming from a place of if I Except I was coming from a place of if I don't do this, there's nothing in me don't do this, there's nothing in me don't do this, there's nothing in me that's lovable. Uh or and and so as that's lovable. Uh or and and so as that's lovable. Uh or and and so as Christ began to heal that, as the spirit Christ began to heal that, as the spirit Christ began to heal that, as the spirit began to heal that, it's not that I'm began to heal that, it's not that I'm began to heal that, it's not that I'm working less. It's not that I'm less working less. It's not that I'm less working less. It's not that I'm less ambitious.

ambitious. ambitious. All my work now is flowing from I am All my work now is flowing from I am All my work now is flowing from I am loved. I have been received. I am loved. I have been received. I am loved. I have been received. I am delighted in. I am a son of God. Rather delighted in. I am a son of God. Rather delighted in. I am a son of God. Rather than if I fail here, if this doesn't than if I fail here, if this doesn't than if I fail here, if this doesn't work here, if I'm not perceived as work here, if I'm not perceived as work here, if I'm not perceived as whatever, then I'm not lovable. M whatever, then I'm not lovable. M whatever, then I'm not lovable. M Carrie, I used to have like in my early Carrie, I used to have like in my early Carrie, I used to have like in my early days if I was getting sick, I'd like days if I was getting sick, I'd like days if I was getting sick, I'd like nearly have a panic attack because if nearly have a panic attack because if nearly have a panic attack because if I'm sick, then I can't produce. And if I I'm sick, then I can't produce. And if I I'm sick, then I can't produce. And if I can't produce, do I matter? Uh I might can't produce, do I matter? Uh I might can't produce, do I matter? Uh I might not matter if I don't produce. And and not matter if I don't produce. And and not matter if I don't produce. And and so again, the golden shadow, the beauty so again, the golden shadow, the beauty so again, the golden shadow, the beauty of the spirit is that even in my of the spirit is that even in my of the spirit is that even in my brokenness, there was gold. Um and the brokenness, there was gold. Um and the brokenness, there was gold. Um and the love of God wanted to integrate me in love of God wanted to integrate me in love of God wanted to integrate me in such a way that I could both receive the such a way that I could both receive the such a way that I could both receive the love of Christ deeply and then give love of Christ deeply and then give love of Christ deeply and then give myself over to the calling that he put myself over to the calling that he put myself over to the calling that he put on my life. not constantly striving to on my life. not constantly striving to on my life. not constantly striving to be approved of him by him, but resting be approved of him by him, but resting be approved of him by him, but resting in his approval so that I could work in his approval so that I could work in his approval so that I could work from the strength. That that great line from the strength. That that great line from the strength. That that great line from Paul that that he works harder than from Paul that that he works harder than from Paul that that he works harder than any of them and and and he does so with any of them and and and he does so with any of them and and and he does so with the might of the Lord in him. So, it's the might of the Lord in him. So, it's the might of the Lord in him. So, it's not his effort, but but the power of the not his effort, but but the power of the not his effort, but but the power of the spirit, right, pushing him and spirit, right, pushing him and spirit, right, pushing him and empowering for the work.

empowering for the work. empowering for the work. >> I think we're on a very similar journey >> I think we're on a very similar journey >> I think we're on a very similar journey in that respect, Matt. And I think in that respect, Matt. And I think in that respect, Matt. And I think that's one of the reasons I enjoy that's one of the reasons I enjoy that's one of the reasons I enjoy hanging out with you so much. hanging out with you so much. hanging out with you so much. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> sins of the church. You say cultural >> sins of the church. You say cultural >> sins of the church. You say cultural Christianity is dying. You've got some Christianity is dying. You've got some Christianity is dying. You've got some words for the wider church. I mean, I words for the wider church. I mean, I words for the wider church. I mean, I think we are at a crossroads of some think we are at a crossroads of some think we are at a crossroads of some kind. I mean, the trajectory of ministry kind. I mean, the trajectory of ministry kind. I mean, the trajectory of ministry as it existed when you started out, I as it existed when you started out, I as it existed when you started out, I started out started out started out >> completely different, >> completely different, >> completely different, >> very, very different today. >> very, very different today. >> very, very different today. What are you seeing as as as the What are you seeing as as as the What are you seeing as as as the besetting sins of, let's just say, the besetting sins of, let's just say, the besetting sins of, let's just say, the American evangelical church that you American evangelical church that you American evangelical church that you think we need to address? think we need to address? think we need to address? >> I hate that question. One, because I >> I hate that question. One, because I >> I hate that question. One, because I love her. I mean, I love the church. I love her. I mean, I love the church. I love her. I mean, I love the church. I love the guys that are trying to lead it love the guys that are trying to lead it love the guys that are trying to lead it faithfully. Uh I have a great burden for faithfully. Uh I have a great burden for faithfully. Uh I have a great burden for um unhealed um unhealed um unhealed pastors who are trying to do this work pastors who are trying to do this work pastors who are trying to do this work and absolutely exhausted and and absolutely exhausted and and absolutely exhausted and underappreciated and disrespected and um underappreciated and disrespected and um underappreciated and disrespected and um you know I I I've rarely said this you know I I I've rarely said this you know I I I've rarely said this publicly but I know that there are publicly but I know that there are publicly but I know that there are scoundrels who have pastored churches scoundrels who have pastored churches scoundrels who have pastored churches who need to be removed who need to be who need to be removed who need to be who need to be removed who need to be like I know that's true. It is the more like I know that's true. It is the more like I know that's true. It is the more common story that very good men are common story that very good men are common story that very good men are devoured by the church. And I think devoured by the church. And I think devoured by the church. And I think that's also the story you see in the that's also the story you see in the that's also the story you see in the scriptures. Um, you see the people of scriptures. Um, you see the people of scriptures. Um, you see the people of God turn against Moses when it's not God turn against Moses when it's not God turn against Moses when it's not going the way they want it. You you see going the way they want it. You you see going the way they want it. You you see Paul constantly harassed. you see. And Paul constantly harassed. you see. And Paul constantly harassed. you see. And man, so I have such a heart, but um man, so I have such a heart, but um man, so I have such a heart, but um yeah, I I think I I think the church is

yeah, I I think I I think the church is yeah, I I think I I think the church is a lot of wood with no fire. It's this a lot of wood with no fire. It's this a lot of wood with no fire. It's this giant sail with very little wind. But I giant sail with very little wind. But I giant sail with very little wind. But I I it appears to me, so I I'll get myself I it appears to me, so I I'll get myself I it appears to me, so I I'll get myself in trouble. It also seems that God is in trouble. It also seems that God is in trouble. It also seems that God is judging the charismatic movement right judging the charismatic movement right judging the charismatic movement right now. now. now. >> Uh I mean, you look who are their >> Uh I mean, you look who are their >> Uh I mean, you look who are their heroes? They're like falling one after heroes? They're like falling one after heroes? They're like falling one after another like all the big flagships. Uh, another like all the big flagships. Uh, another like all the big flagships. Uh, right. It seems God has right. It seems God has right. It seems God has >> Yeah, you're right. >> Yeah, you're right. >> Yeah, you're right. >> Their sins have found them out. The >> Their sins have found them out. The >> Their sins have found them out. The movements slow. I think God's making a movements slow. I think God's making a movements slow. I think God's making a way for true convergence, true spirit way for true convergence, true spirit way for true convergence, true spirit and word churches. And and I'm hopeful and word churches. And and I'm hopeful and word churches. And and I'm hopeful that that's one of the things we're that that's one of the things we're that that's one of the things we're watching in this moment. I is um a a a watching in this moment. I is um a a a watching in this moment. I is um a a a way being lifted. I hope the young guys way being lifted. I hope the young guys way being lifted. I hope the young guys take this and run with it. Uh I plan on take this and run with it. Uh I plan on take this and run with it. Uh I plan on cheering them on and resourcing them as cheering them on and resourcing them as cheering them on and resourcing them as best I can. Uh but True Spirit and Word best I can. Uh but True Spirit and Word best I can. Uh but True Spirit and Word Churches now being the norm. Um that Churches now being the norm. Um that Churches now being the norm. Um that man, if I can go to glory looking at man, if I can go to glory looking at man, if I can go to glory looking at that happening, uh I'll be the the that happening, uh I'll be the the that happening, uh I'll be the the happiest I think I can be.

happiest I think I can be. happiest I think I can be. >> You know, you really you put your finger >> You know, you really you put your finger >> You know, you really you put your finger on something that that as soon as you on something that that as soon as you on something that that as soon as you said it and gave it language, I'm like, said it and gave it language, I'm like, said it and gave it language, I'm like, yes, that is what's happening. Because yes, that is what's happening. Because yes, that is what's happening. Because you look at the next gen of leaders and you look at the next gen of leaders and you look at the next gen of leaders and it is that fusion. It's like there's it is that fusion. It's like there's it is that fusion. It's like there's orthodoxy and there's, orthodoxy and there's, orthodoxy and there's, >> you know, it gets back to that imminence >> you know, it gets back to that imminence >> you know, it gets back to that imminence and transcendence thing that I've been and transcendence thing that I've been and transcendence thing that I've been thinking about. It is imminent in the thinking about. It is imminent in the thinking about. It is imminent in the sense that it's not just babble and you sense that it's not just babble and you sense that it's not just babble and you don't know what's going on, don't know what's going on, don't know what's going on, >> but it's also transcendent as in this is >> but it's also transcendent as in this is >> but it's also transcendent as in this is bigger than just the words that were bigger than just the words that were bigger than just the words that were spoken or the notes that were played or spoken or the notes that were played or spoken or the notes that were played or the the the >> the words that were sung. And >> the words that were sung. And >> the words that were sung. And >> that's that's a really good thought. >> that's that's a really good thought. >> that's that's a really good thought. >> Yeah. Because I think the Lord I mean I >> Yeah. Because I think the Lord I mean I >> Yeah. Because I think the Lord I mean I think you were witnessing the death of think you were witnessing the death of think you were witnessing the death of secularism. secularism. secularism. >> And so like here's this is crazy to me, >> And so like here's this is crazy to me, >> And so like here's this is crazy to me, Carrie. Um, I have a guy, white collar, Carrie. Um, I have a guy, white collar, Carrie. Um, I have a guy, white collar, super successful that I train jiu-jitsu super successful that I train jiu-jitsu super successful that I train jiu-jitsu with with with >> and I mean he is like he would look like >> and I mean he is like he would look like >> and I mean he is like he would look like any very successful white collar wealthy any very successful white collar wealthy any very successful white collar wealthy suburb guy ever. He he got he lost his suburb guy ever. He he got he lost his suburb guy ever. He he got he lost his job in a reorg and he um he he was going job in a reorg and he um he he was going job in a reorg and he um he he was going for a job interview and me and another for a job interview and me and another for a job interview and me and another guy at jiu-jitsu who both loved the Lord guy at jiu-jitsu who both loved the Lord guy at jiu-jitsu who both loved the Lord offered to pray for him and and he offered to pray for him and and he offered to pray for him and and he looked looked a little skittish about looked looked a little skittish about looked looked a little skittish about that and then he just kind of leaned in that and then he just kind of leaned in that and then he just kind of leaned in and he was like, "Hey, um okay, but and he was like, "Hey, um okay, but and he was like, "Hey, um okay, but we're going to we're going to be praying we're going to we're going to be praying we're going to we're going to be praying to different gods." And so my friend to different gods." And so my friend to different gods." And so my friend Isaac was like, "What? Say more about Isaac was like, "What? Say more about Isaac was like, "What? Say more about that." And he like trusted us. He was that." And he like trusted us. He was that." And he like trusted us. He was just like, "Okay, um my wife's a witch.

just like, "Okay, um my wife's a witch. just like, "Okay, um my wife's a witch. She's a white witch. We don't mess She's a white witch. We don't mess She's a white witch. We don't mess around with that that dark stuff. All around with that that dark stuff. All around with that that dark stuff. All right. She's a white witch, but we right. She's a white witch, but we right. She's a white witch, but we worship the goddess Marorrow. She's an worship the goddess Marorrow. She's an worship the goddess Marorrow. She's an Irish Celtic goddess. We have an altar Irish Celtic goddess. We have an altar Irish Celtic goddess. We have an altar in our house, and that's who we pray to. in our house, and that's who we pray to. in our house, and that's who we pray to. That is the first time in 30 years I had That is the first time in 30 years I had That is the first time in 30 years I had a very successful white collar man admit a very successful white collar man admit a very successful white collar man admit to me, we're actual pagans. We are to me, we're actual pagans. We are to me, we're actual pagans. We are pagans in our worship, in our prayers. pagans in our worship, in our prayers. pagans in our worship, in our prayers. We're serious about that. So, it's not We're serious about that. So, it's not We're serious about that. So, it's not just with the death of secularism, it's just with the death of secularism, it's just with the death of secularism, it's not just us that's growing. It's not not just us that's growing. It's not not just us that's growing. It's not just the church that's experiencing this just the church that's experiencing this just the church that's experiencing this right now. Like the lie of secularism's right now. Like the lie of secularism's right now. Like the lie of secularism's been exposed. You've got a generation been exposed. You've got a generation been exposed. You've got a generation seeking transcendence. Um and and seeking transcendence. Um and and seeking transcendence. Um and and they're going to find it somewhere. And they're going to find it somewhere. And they're going to find it somewhere. And it can be found in witchcraft and it can it can be found in witchcraft and it can it can be found in witchcraft and it can be found in paganism and it can be found be found in paganism and it can be found be found in paganism and it can be found in these crystals and tarot cards and in these crystals and tarot cards and in these crystals and tarot cards and all this stuff. And and that's why I all this stuff. And and that's why I all this stuff. And and that's why I think it's super important in this think it's super important in this think it's super important in this moment that the church has both moment that the church has both moment that the church has both transcendence and evidence that we transcendence and evidence that we transcendence and evidence that we celebrate the fact that God is among us, celebrate the fact that God is among us, celebrate the fact that God is among us, but we also recognize he is above us.

but we also recognize he is above us. but we also recognize he is above us. And that among us I is is is it's And that among us I is is is it's And that among us I is is is it's mystical and beautiful and powerful and mystical and beautiful and powerful and mystical and beautiful and powerful and people could get healed and the presence people could get healed and the presence people could get healed and the presence of God could show up in a way that's not of God could show up in a way that's not of God could show up in a way that's not just intellectual but a but a true just intellectual but a but a true just intellectual but a but a true manifestation of the spirit's power. And manifestation of the spirit's power. And manifestation of the spirit's power. And I'm really hopeful um that that more and I'm really hopeful um that that more and I'm really hopeful um that that more and more churches are going to seek but I more churches are going to seek but I more churches are going to seek but I think it's not a well-worn path. I think think it's not a well-worn path. I think think it's not a well-worn path. I think it's wellorn path. I think actually over it's wellorn path. I think actually over it's wellorn path. I think actually over the last couple of years like I don't the last couple of years like I don't the last couple of years like I don't want to mark it with Asbury but you know want to mark it with Asbury but you know want to mark it with Asbury but you know around that time you see that around that time you see that around that time you see that convergence as you've described it convergence as you've described it convergence as you've described it happening more and more and I really do happening more and more and I really do happening more and more and I really do think you're right that's probably a think you're right that's probably a think you're right that's probably a path for the future that path for the future that path for the future that >> and I hope >> and I hope >> and I hope >> and and you know if you can if you can >> and and you know if you can if you can >> and and you know if you can if you can become opened to the part that was become opened to the part that was become opened to the part that was neglected neglected neglected >> I think anybody can and similar with >> I think anybody can and similar with >> I think anybody can and similar with charismatics charismatics charismatics >> you know I have a lot of charismatic >> you know I have a lot of charismatic >> you know I have a lot of charismatic friends um to be more open to the other friends um to be more open to the other friends um to be more open to the other side as well and then to see a fusion side as well and then to see a fusion side as well and then to see a fusion happen I think would be really really happen I think would be really really happen I think would be really really healthy for healthy for healthy for >> the way I talk about it at the village >> the way I talk about it at the village >> the way I talk about it at the village is that the airplane model right which is that the airplane model right which is that the airplane model right which wing do you want wing do you want wing do you want >> both wings >> both wings >> both wings >> and then what I'll say is if your bent >> and then what I'll say is if your bent >> and then what I'll say is if your bent is towards systematics I I want you to is towards systematics I I want you to is towards systematics I I want you to create space for the prayer room and and create space for the prayer room and and create space for the prayer room and and if your bent is the prayer room I want if your bent is the prayer room I want if your bent is the prayer room I want you to make space for our training you to make space for our training you to make space for our training program which is like a ninemonth program which is like a ninemonth program which is like a ninemonth lay theological training program that's lay theological training program that's lay theological training program that's like got Bob in uh I mean it's deep it's like got Bob in uh I mean it's deep it's like got Bob in uh I mean it's deep it's deep water and and so wherever your bent

deep water and and so wherever your bent deep water and and so wherever your bent is I want you to organize this year in is I want you to organize this year in is I want you to organize this year in the other direction because I don't the other direction because I don't the other direction because I don't think you're going to lose your native think you're going to lose your native think you're going to lose your native tongue but I but I think what you'll tongue but I but I think what you'll tongue but I but I think what you'll find is more logs for that fire over find is more logs for that fire over find is more logs for that fire over here in the doctrine and and if man you here in the doctrine and and if man you here in the doctrine and and if man you you don't know how to pray but man you you don't know how to pray but man you you don't know how to pray but man you you can read you know the institutes you can read you know the institutes you can read you know the institutes over over and over and over again. I'm over over and over and over again. I'm over over and over and over again. I'm going to ask you to get to the prayer going to ask you to get to the prayer going to ask you to get to the prayer room. And and so I'm trying to push them room. And and so I'm trying to push them room. And and so I'm trying to push them out of where they're most comfortable be out of where they're most comfortable be out of where they're most comfortable be because I think the the fire of the because I think the the fire of the because I think the the fire of the prayer room is going to catch the logs prayer room is going to catch the logs prayer room is going to catch the logs of doctrine on fire and the logs of the of doctrine on fire and the logs of the of doctrine on fire and the logs of the doctrine going to fuel this fire in a doctrine going to fuel this fire in a doctrine going to fuel this fire in a way that's better informed and sees God way that's better informed and sees God way that's better informed and sees God more correctly so they don't say those more correctly so they don't say those more correctly so they don't say those crazy things that charismatics can crazy things that charismatics can crazy things that charismatics can sometimes say. sometimes say. sometimes say. >> That's great. Great metaphor, >> That's great. Great metaphor, >> That's great. Great metaphor, Matt. Thank you. It's never dull. It's Matt. Thank you. It's never dull. It's Matt. Thank you. It's never dull. It's always It's always fascinating. You got always It's always fascinating. You got always It's always fascinating. You got a brand new book. It's called Becoming a brand new book. It's called Becoming a brand new book. It's called Becoming Like Jesus: The Everyday Journey to Like Jesus: The Everyday Journey to Like Jesus: The Everyday Journey to Living a Life of Holiness. And we've Living a Life of Holiness. And we've Living a Life of Holiness. And we've kind of touched on a lot of the themes kind of touched on a lot of the themes kind of touched on a lot of the themes that you touch on in the book. Um and that you touch on in the book. Um and that you touch on in the book. Um and thanks just for your transparency, thanks just for your transparency, thanks just for your transparency, thanks for your openness, thanks for not thanks for your openness, thanks for not thanks for your openness, thanks for not quitting.

quitting. quitting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And uh thanks for shining a light where >> And uh thanks for shining a light where >> And uh thanks for shining a light where a lot of us need to see. a lot of us need to see. a lot of us need to see. >> Well, blessings on you, brother. Love >> Well, blessings on you, brother. Love >> Well, blessings on you, brother. Love how you lead leaders. Thank you. It is how you lead leaders. Thank you. It is how you lead leaders. Thank you. It is never boring with Matt. I can tell you never boring with Matt. I can tell you never boring with Matt. I can tell you that. I I really enjoyed it and really that. I I really enjoyed it and really that. I I really enjoyed it and really made me think and I think that idea of made me think and I think that idea of made me think and I think that idea of convergence that is a trend we need to convergence that is a trend we need to convergence that is a trend we need to be paying attention to that churches be paying attention to that churches be paying attention to that churches that were a little more anchored in the that were a little more anchored in the that were a little more anchored in the spirit are also getting more anchored in spirit are also getting more anchored in spirit are also getting more anchored in the word. Churches that were anchor the word. Churches that were anchor the word. Churches that were anchor anchored I should say more in the word anchored I should say more in the word anchored I should say more in the word are being more anchored in the spirit. are being more anchored in the spirit. are being more anchored in the spirit. That you need both wings of the plane. That you need both wings of the plane. That you need both wings of the plane. That's probably my big takeaway. We have That's probably my big takeaway. We have That's probably my big takeaway. We have everything Matt and I talked about everything Matt and I talked about everything Matt and I talked about including links to his new book in the including links to his new book in the including links to his new book in the show notes. You can get them by joining show notes. You can get them by joining show notes. You can get them by joining my art of leadership academy for free. my art of leadership academy for free. my art of leadership academy for free. We have almost 22,000 leaders in the We have almost 22,000 leaders in the We have almost 22,000 leaders in the academy and you can join by going to the academy and you can join by going to the academy and you can join by going to the art of leadershipacademy.com. art of leadershipacademy.com. art of leadershipacademy.com. Would love to see you in there. I'm in Would love to see you in there. I'm in Would love to see you in there. I'm in there on the regular and we got 22,000 there on the regular and we got 22,000 there on the regular and we got 22,000 other church leaders there. Coming up on other church leaders there. Coming up on other church leaders there. Coming up on the podcast, John Ortberg, John Mark the podcast, John Ortberg, John Mark the podcast, John Ortberg, John Mark Comr and I sit down to interview Father Comr and I sit down to interview Father Comr and I sit down to interview Father Ron Rollheiser. We both absolutely loved Ron Rollheiser. We both absolutely loved Ron Rollheiser. We both absolutely loved a book he wrote and decided to do this a book he wrote and decided to do this a book he wrote and decided to do this together. Kyle Idleman, Aaron Graham, together. Kyle Idleman, Aaron Graham, together. Kyle Idleman, Aaron Graham, Tyler Stton, and a whole lot more. Thank Tyler Stton, and a whole lot more. Thank Tyler Stton, and a whole lot more. Thank you so much for listening. It's really you so much for listening. It's really you so much for listening. It's really quite humbling that we get to do this quite humbling that we get to do this quite humbling that we get to do this and I get to do this. And I never take and I get to do this. And I never take and I get to do this. And I never take it for granted. I'm so glad that you are it for granted. I'm so glad that you are it for granted. I'm so glad that you are a listener, a watcher of this podcast.

a listener, a watcher of this podcast. a listener, a watcher of this podcast. And some of you are brand new. I I run And some of you are brand new. I I run And some of you are brand new. I I run into you all the time. You're into you all the time. You're into you all the time. You're predominantly next generation, which is predominantly next generation, which is predominantly next generation, which is really exciting for someone at this really exciting for someone at this really exciting for someone at this stage of life, for me as a host that we stage of life, for me as a host that we stage of life, for me as a host that we get to build into you as a leader. And get to build into you as a leader. And get to build into you as a leader. And um well, if I get to meet you on the um well, if I get to meet you on the um well, if I get to meet you on the road this year, I'm out a lot. Uh just road this year, I'm out a lot. Uh just road this year, I'm out a lot. Uh just come and say hi. Uh I always love come and say hi. Uh I always love come and say hi. Uh I always love meeting listeners. So whether you're meeting listeners. So whether you're meeting listeners. So whether you're brand new or you go back to episode one, brand new or you go back to episode one, brand new or you go back to episode one, so glad you joined us today. And if this so glad you joined us today. And if this so glad you joined us today. And if this means something to you, leave a rating means something to you, leave a rating means something to you, leave a rating and review. Maybe share it with a and review. Maybe share it with a and review. Maybe share it with a friend. And I hope our time together friend. And I hope our time together friend. And I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.