Avoid These Church Planting and Founder Mistakes

Everyone from the outside's looking Everyone from the outside's looking thinking like you've got it all thinking like you've got it all thinking like you've got it all together, it's all perfect, and together, it's all perfect, and together, it's all perfect, and you're just kind of dying inside. Right? you're just kind of dying inside. Right? you're just kind of dying inside. Right? Like This is Like This is Like This is I'm I'm spending I wanted to get into I'm I'm spending I wanted to get into I'm I'm spending I wanted to get into this to make coffee, and I'm looking all this to make coffee, and I'm looking all this to make coffee, and I'm looking all day every day at P&Ls and legal day every day at P&Ls and legal day every day at P&Ls and legal statements and and it's just statements and and it's just statements and and it's just We're doing all these things, and none We're doing all these things, and none We're doing all these things, and none of them are checking the box. We're of them are checking the box. We're of them are checking the box. We're achieving these milestones, and they achieving these milestones, and they achieving these milestones, and they don't really seem to matter. Then you don't really seem to matter. Then you don't really seem to matter. Then you know, then you know, heaven forbid, but know, then you know, heaven forbid, but know, then you know, heaven forbid, but then some stuff starts to go wrong, then some stuff starts to go wrong, then some stuff starts to go wrong, right? This is the whitewater kicks in right? This is the whitewater kicks in right? This is the whitewater kicks in with the complexity the organization with the complexity the organization with the complexity the organization starts causing people to have problems. starts causing people to have problems. starts causing people to have problems. Our leaders aren't keeping up with the Our leaders aren't keeping up with the Our leaders aren't keeping up with the pace of growth of the organization. pace of growth of the organization. pace of growth of the organization. Uh we don't have the ability or time in Uh we don't have the ability or time in Uh we don't have the ability or time in the day to go and and fight all the the day to go and and fight all the the day to go and and fight all the fires anymore. So, not only are we being fires anymore. So, not only are we being fires anymore. So, not only are we being disappointed by how it feels to lead disappointed by how it feels to lead disappointed by how it feels to lead this organization, we feel totally out this organization, we feel totally out this organization, we feel totally out of control and unable to keep it of control and unable to keep it of control and unable to keep it going. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof going. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof going. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, if you're here glad you joined us. Hey, if you're here glad you joined us. Hey, if you're here for the first time, subscribe because if for the first time, subscribe because if for the first time, subscribe because if you're an entrepreneur, a founder, or a you're an entrepreneur, a founder, or a you're an entrepreneur, a founder, or a church planter, you need to listen church planter, you need to listen church planter, you need to listen because we've got Scott Ritzheimer on.

because we've got Scott Ritzheimer on. because we've got Scott Ritzheimer on. He talks about some of the mistakes that He talks about some of the mistakes that He talks about some of the mistakes that founders, people like you and me, make. founders, people like you and me, make. founders, people like you and me, make. I planted a church, I've started I planted a church, I've started I planted a church, I've started companies, I am a serial starter, and uh companies, I am a serial starter, and uh companies, I am a serial starter, and uh yeah, we make mistakes. There's a yeah, we make mistakes. There's a yeah, we make mistakes. There's a certain personality type. We definitely certain personality type. We definitely certain personality type. We definitely bring strengths to the table, but also bring strengths to the table, but also bring strengths to the table, but also weaknesses. So, we're going to talk weaknesses. So, we're going to talk weaknesses. So, we're going to talk about that on the podcast, and uh would about that on the podcast, and uh would about that on the podcast, and uh would love for you to leave a comment if it love for you to leave a comment if it love for you to leave a comment if it means something to you. And today's means something to you. And today's means something to you. And today's episode is brought to you by Belay. Do episode is brought to you by Belay. Do episode is brought to you by Belay. Do you know that there are five positive you know that there are five positive you know that there are five positive changes that come from hiring a changes that come from hiring a changes that come from hiring a bookkeeper for your church, particularly bookkeeper for your church, particularly bookkeeper for your church, particularly if you're a planter? You didn't want to if you're a planter? You didn't want to if you're a planter? You didn't want to become an accountant. So, Belay is become an accountant. So, Belay is become an accountant. So, Belay is offering our listeners a free download offering our listeners a free download offering our listeners a free download of their resource five ways a church of their resource five ways a church of their resource five ways a church bookkeeper can transform your day. Text bookkeeper can transform your day. Text bookkeeper can transform your day. Text my name, Carey, c a r e y, to 55123 to my name, Carey, c a r e y, to 55123 to my name, Carey, c a r e y, to 55123 to claim this offer now. And we're claim this offer now. And we're claim this offer now. And we're approaching the end of year, and now is approaching the end of year, and now is approaching the end of year, and now is the time to get your giving strategy in the time to get your giving strategy in the time to get your giving strategy in place. Not only to finish the year place. Not only to finish the year place. Not only to finish the year strong, but to prepare you for the next strong, but to prepare you for the next strong, but to prepare you for the next year ahead. So, if you're trying to year ahead. So, if you're trying to year ahead. So, if you're trying to figure out how to take a discipleship figure out how to take a discipleship figure out how to take a discipleship approach toward increasing generosity in approach toward increasing generosity in approach toward increasing generosity in your church, I invite you to visit your church, I invite you to visit your church, I invite you to visit generous.com/kickstart.

generous.com/kickstart. generous.com/kickstart. And now to today's episode. Well, Scott, And now to today's episode. Well, Scott, And now to today's episode. Well, Scott, I'm so glad to have you on the podcast. I'm so glad to have you on the podcast. I'm so glad to have you on the podcast. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Carey, I'm excited to be here. Uh been Carey, I'm excited to be here. Uh been Carey, I'm excited to be here. Uh been looking forward to this all day, and I looking forward to this all day, and I looking forward to this all day, and I think this will be a great conversation. think this will be a great conversation. think this will be a great conversation. Yeah, I think so. We have so many Yeah, I think so. We have so many Yeah, I think so. We have so many founders listening or people who want to founders listening or people who want to founders listening or people who want to be founders, people who want to start be founders, people who want to start be founders, people who want to start things, whether that's really small, things, whether that's really small, things, whether that's really small, whether that's church planters, whether that's church planters, whether that's church planters, entrepreneurs, business leaders. But entrepreneurs, business leaders. But entrepreneurs, business leaders. But this is a crazy stat. So, help help me this is a crazy stat. So, help help me this is a crazy stat. So, help help me understand. You have helped about 20,000 understand. You have helped about 20,000 understand. You have helped about 20,000 businesses launch. How how is that even businesses launch. How how is that even businesses launch. How how is that even possible? Cuz you're possible? Cuz you're possible? Cuz you're you know, you're not 79. Like No, anyone you know, you're not 79. Like No, anyone you know, you're not 79. Like No, anyone watching, you've got a a slight watching, you've got a a slight watching, you've got a a slight disadvantage over people who are just disadvantage over people who are just disadvantage over people who are just listening cuz I look like I'm about 14, listening cuz I look like I'm about 14, listening cuz I look like I'm about 14, and you're doing the math, and it's and you're doing the math, and it's and you're doing the math, and it's like, that's like that's like 2,000 a like, that's like that's like 2,000 a like, that's like that's like 2,000 a year. How do you do that? year. How do you do that? year. How do you do that? And I I kind of I kind of have to pinch And I I kind of I kind of have to pinch And I I kind of I kind of have to pinch myself as well. So, I'm not 14, um and I myself as well. So, I'm not 14, um and I myself as well. So, I'm not 14, um and I have had a wonderful chance to actually have had a wonderful chance to actually have had a wonderful chance to actually help around 20,000 organizations, me and help around 20,000 organizations, me and help around 20,000 organizations, me and my team. And we did a lot of that in uh my team. And we did a lot of that in uh my team. And we did a lot of that in uh the church and nonprofit space. We did a the church and nonprofit space. We did a the church and nonprofit space. We did a lot of that with for-profit businesses lot of that with for-profit businesses lot of that with for-profit businesses and and just about everything in and and just about everything in and and just about everything in between, you know, from hospitals to between, you know, from hospitals to between, you know, from hospitals to ferret rescues to ferret rescues to ferret rescues to uh you know, local service clubs. A lot uh you know, local service clubs. A lot uh you know, local service clubs. A lot of different kinds of organizations. And of different kinds of organizations. And of different kinds of organizations. And um and I I you know, how do we do that?

um and I I you know, how do we do that? um and I I you know, how do we do that? It was not some grand designer plan. I It was not some grand designer plan. I It was not some grand designer plan. I didn't like go to school thinking I didn't like go to school thinking I didn't like go to school thinking I would start 20,000 organizations. I would start 20,000 organizations. I would start 20,000 organizations. I actually accidentally dropped out of actually accidentally dropped out of actually accidentally dropped out of high school. So, there there was no high school. So, there there was no high school. So, there there was no grand like scheme behind all of this. grand like scheme behind all of this. grand like scheme behind all of this. It wasn't like I felt like I was It wasn't like I felt like I was It wasn't like I felt like I was destined to start organizations, destined to start organizations, destined to start organizations, uh but kind of even stumbled into the uh but kind of even stumbled into the uh but kind of even stumbled into the world of entrepreneurism. world of entrepreneurism. world of entrepreneurism. But we realized pretty early on that But we realized pretty early on that But we realized pretty early on that there was a need, uh particularly in the there was a need, uh particularly in the there was a need, uh particularly in the church community, and then expanded from church community, and then expanded from church community, and then expanded from there, a need for someone to come there, a need for someone to come there, a need for someone to come alongside and help in the early days. alongside and help in the early days. alongside and help in the early days. And so And so And so that's how that's how I got into it. Uh that's how that's how I got into it. Uh that's how that's how I got into it. Uh again, we were we're helping start a again, we were we're helping start a again, we were we're helping start a whole bunch of organizations every year. whole bunch of organizations every year. whole bunch of organizations every year. And what happens after you do that for a And what happens after you do that for a And what happens after you do that for a little while, or about five years in, we little while, or about five years in, we little while, or about five years in, we started seeing a lot of them close, started seeing a lot of them close, started seeing a lot of them close, right? We were we were launching them, right? We were we were launching them, right? We were we were launching them, but they weren't succeeding. And a whole but they weren't succeeding. And a whole but they weren't succeeding. And a whole lot of them. lot of them. lot of them. And it got me thinking. At the same And it got me thinking. At the same And it got me thinking. At the same time, my business is growing, and we're time, my business is growing, and we're time, my business is growing, and we're experiencing some growing pains, and it experiencing some growing pains, and it experiencing some growing pains, and it it set me on this path of figuring out it set me on this path of figuring out it set me on this path of figuring out why is it that it's why is it that it's why is it that it's in some ways it's really hard to start in some ways it's really hard to start in some ways it's really hard to start an organization and and get it off the an organization and and get it off the an organization and and get it off the ground. There's some really tough stats ground. There's some really tough stats ground. There's some really tough stats around that, but even the ones that make around that, but even the ones that make around that, but even the ones that make it, why is it that so many of them fail?

it, why is it that so many of them fail? it, why is it that so many of them fail? Why is it that so many founders uh Why is it that so many founders uh Why is it that so many founders uh whether they have success early on or whether they have success early on or whether they have success early on or not why is it that that early success not why is it that that early success not why is it that that early success doesn't necessarily guarantee later doesn't necessarily guarantee later doesn't necessarily guarantee later success? What is it that trips us up? success? What is it that trips us up? success? What is it that trips us up? And it started a whole journey for me. And it started a whole journey for me. And it started a whole journey for me. It's quite fascinating. Well, I mean, It's quite fascinating. Well, I mean, It's quite fascinating. Well, I mean, you look at Silicon Valley, founders you look at Silicon Valley, founders you look at Silicon Valley, founders don't always make great CEOs, right? And don't always make great CEOs, right? And don't always make great CEOs, right? And I guess you probably have an I guess you probably have an I guess you probably have an entrepreneurial spirit. I mean, anybody entrepreneurial spirit. I mean, anybody entrepreneurial spirit. I mean, anybody who'd try to MacGyver their GED that way who'd try to MacGyver their GED that way who'd try to MacGyver their GED that way and then go back to high school after and then go back to high school after and then go back to high school after leaving and all that stuff. It Do you leaving and all that stuff. It Do you leaving and all that stuff. It Do you find that that's one of the patterns in find that that's one of the patterns in find that that's one of the patterns in startup people, uh entrepreneurs, startup people, uh entrepreneurs, startup people, uh entrepreneurs, uh church planters is we make up our own uh church planters is we make up our own uh church planters is we make up our own rules? rules? rules? For better or worse? For better or worse? For better or worse? Absolutely. I I Absolutely. I I Absolutely. I I There's a certain a degree to which you There's a certain a degree to which you There's a certain a degree to which you have to, right? So, you look at start have to, right? So, you look at start have to, right? So, you look at start So, somewhere around eight out of 10 new So, somewhere around eight out of 10 new So, somewhere around eight out of 10 new entrepreneurs and uh in many ways new entrepreneurs and uh in many ways new entrepreneurs and uh in many ways new churches, they're very much cut from the churches, they're very much cut from the churches, they're very much cut from the same cloth, right? Different way that same cloth, right? Different way that same cloth, right? Different way that it's expressed and and different goals it's expressed and and different goals it's expressed and and different goals in in many ways, shapes, and forms, but in in many ways, shapes, and forms, but in in many ways, shapes, and forms, but similar style. And the vast majority of similar style. And the vast majority of similar style. And the vast majority of them fail, right? It may fail on just, them fail, right? It may fail on just, them fail, right? It may fail on just, you know, being conceptualized. It may you know, being conceptualized. It may you know, being conceptualized. It may fail once we start. May fail a couple fail once we start. May fail a couple fail once we start. May fail a couple years in. May fail 15, 20 years in years in. May fail 15, 20 years in years in. May fail 15, 20 years in before we really ever gain traction.

before we really ever gain traction. before we really ever gain traction. Some of us are just that stubborn. Some of us are just that stubborn. Some of us are just that stubborn. Uh I've been there, I know. Um but um Uh I've been there, I know. Um but um Uh I've been there, I know. Um but um starting something from nothing is not starting something from nothing is not starting something from nothing is not easy. Yeah. easy. Yeah. easy. Yeah. There's a whole lot of things that are a There's a whole lot of things that are a There's a whole lot of things that are a whole lot easier that can create a whole whole lot easier that can create a whole whole lot easier that can create a whole lot of success by whatever your standard lot of success by whatever your standard lot of success by whatever your standard of success might be, right? And if you of success might be, right? And if you of success might be, right? And if you can do any of those things, you probably can do any of those things, you probably can do any of those things, you probably should. So, there To answer your should. So, there To answer your should. So, there To answer your question, I think there has to be an question, I think there has to be an question, I think there has to be an element of element of element of uh I'm going to do something that uh I'm going to do something that uh I'm going to do something that doesn't make sense, right? It genuinely doesn't make sense, right? It genuinely doesn't make sense, right? It genuinely doesn't make sense to start a business doesn't make sense to start a business doesn't make sense to start a business from nothing. And uh when you really from nothing. And uh when you really from nothing. And uh when you really boil it down, there again, there's much boil it down, there again, there's much boil it down, there again, there's much easier ways. And so, I think what that easier ways. And so, I think what that easier ways. And so, I think what that does is it it attracts people who aren't does is it it attracts people who aren't does is it it attracts people who aren't afraid to break some rules, right? Who afraid to break some rules, right? Who afraid to break some rules, right? Who aren't afraid to see things through a aren't afraid to see things through a aren't afraid to see things through a different lens, who are bold enough and different lens, who are bold enough and different lens, who are bold enough and brave enough and to an extent ignorant brave enough and to an extent ignorant brave enough and to an extent ignorant enough to think that they can change enough to think that they can change enough to think that they can change their world or their piece of the world. their world or their piece of the world. their world or their piece of the world. And I love it, right? Oh, working with And I love it, right? Oh, working with And I love it, right? Oh, working with those people is just so exciting. It's those people is just so exciting. It's those people is just so exciting. It's so fun. And and you're right. And and I so fun. And and you're right. And and I so fun. And and you're right. And and I love this about your podcast in love this about your podcast in love this about your podcast in particular is that particular is that particular is that it is both worlds. It's not just a a it is both worlds. It's not just a a it is both worlds. It's not just a a for-profit entrepreneur business leader for-profit entrepreneur business leader for-profit entrepreneur business leader thing. It's not just a nonprofit, you thing. It's not just a nonprofit, you thing. It's not just a nonprofit, you know, founding pastor thing. It really know, founding pastor thing. It really know, founding pastor thing. It really is how we start organizations, and is how we start organizations, and is how we start organizations, and ultimately uh has a really big role in ultimately uh has a really big role in ultimately uh has a really big role in how we scale them as well. Well, that's how we scale them as well. Well, that's how we scale them as well. Well, that's what I think. I mean, there I see so what I think. I mean, there I see so what I think. I mean, there I see so many similarities between that sort of

many similarities between that sort of many similarities between that sort of startup entrepreneurial mindset in the startup entrepreneurial mindset in the startup entrepreneurial mindset in the church world, but also in the business church world, but also in the business church world, but also in the business world. And you know, wherever the world. And you know, wherever the world. And you know, wherever the application happens to be it's the same application happens to be it's the same application happens to be it's the same DNA. It's the same cloth. It's the same DNA. It's the same cloth. It's the same DNA. It's the same cloth. It's the same fabric. Um fabric. Um fabric. Um most founders start off as employees. most founders start off as employees. most founders start off as employees. You know, you work at a gas station, or You know, you work at a gas station, or You know, you work at a gas station, or you work at a restaurant, or something you work at a restaurant, or something you work at a restaurant, or something like that. When you look at what goes like that. When you look at what goes like that. When you look at what goes into the person who eventually becomes a into the person who eventually becomes a into the person who eventually becomes a founder, a starter, an entrepreneur founder, a starter, an entrepreneur founder, a starter, an entrepreneur what kind of employees do future what kind of employees do future what kind of employees do future founders tend to make? Like if you're founders tend to make? Like if you're founders tend to make? Like if you're And I And I want to ask this question. And I And I want to ask this question. And I And I want to ask this question. If you're in an organization right now, If you're in an organization right now, If you're in an organization right now, you've got a bunch of young leaders. How you've got a bunch of young leaders. How you've got a bunch of young leaders. How do you spot the founder do you spot the founder do you spot the founder among the cast of characters that you've among the cast of characters that you've among the cast of characters that you've hired? hired? hired? So, there's a there's a whole spectrum So, there's a there's a whole spectrum So, there's a there's a whole spectrum here from like just patently here from like just patently here from like just patently unemployable founders, right? The ones unemployable founders, right? The ones unemployable founders, right? The ones who like, you know, like who like, you know, like who like, you know, like one I have a dear friend who who one I have a dear friend who who one I have a dear friend who who actually describes himself that way. I actually describes himself that way. I actually describes himself that way. I had one job, you know, coming out of had one job, you know, coming out of had one job, you know, coming out of college, and has never you know, never college, and has never you know, never college, and has never you know, never worked for anybody else since. So, there worked for anybody else since. So, there worked for anybody else since. So, there there's that. But when you look at most there's that. But when you look at most there's that. But when you look at most uh and I'll say successful founders, uh uh and I'll say successful founders, uh uh and I'll say successful founders, uh nonprofit world, business world they nonprofit world, business world they nonprofit world, business world they actually tend to be high performers. Uh actually tend to be high performers. Uh actually tend to be high performers. Uh they they they tend to be uh a little they they they tend to be uh a little they they they tend to be uh a little wild, a little crazy uh in many ways.

wild, a little crazy uh in many ways. wild, a little crazy uh in many ways. But when you look at some of the stats But when you look at some of the stats But when you look at some of the stats on this, most of them are making about on this, most of them are making about on this, most of them are making about 150 to 180% of what others would make in 150 to 180% of what others would make in 150 to 180% of what others would make in in their given role. Right? So, if in their given role. Right? So, if in their given role. Right? So, if they're a salesperson, uh they tend to they're a salesperson, uh they tend to they're a salesperson, uh they tend to succeed as a salesperson. If they're succeed as a salesperson. If they're succeed as a salesperson. If they're uh you know, some kind of consultant or uh you know, some kind of consultant or uh you know, some kind of consultant or whatever it may be, they actually tend whatever it may be, they actually tend whatever it may be, they actually tend to be high performers. Now, this isn't to be high performers. Now, this isn't to be high performers. Now, this isn't of all people who start their own of all people who start their own of all people who start their own business. This is those who start their business. This is those who start their business. This is those who start their own business and succeed. So, there are own business and succeed. So, there are own business and succeed. So, there are a significant number of founders who who a significant number of founders who who a significant number of founders who who did succeed as employees. But here's the did succeed as employees. But here's the did succeed as employees. But here's the characteristic characteristic characteristic uh that I think really sets them apart. uh that I think really sets them apart. uh that I think really sets them apart. One is what a lot of people would One is what a lot of people would One is what a lot of people would mistake as a natural leadership gift. mistake as a natural leadership gift. mistake as a natural leadership gift. They'll say, "Hey, he's just a leader," They'll say, "Hey, he's just a leader," They'll say, "Hey, he's just a leader," right? There there's there's this kind right? There there's there's this kind right? There there's there's this kind of feeling quality about it. I have a of feeling quality about it. I have a of feeling quality about it. I have a little bit of trouble with that because little bit of trouble with that because little bit of trouble with that because I think that there's actually like our I think that there's actually like our I think that there's actually like our our mutual friend Les McKeown talks our mutual friend Les McKeown talks our mutual friend Les McKeown talks about there are four leadership styles, about there are four leadership styles, about there are four leadership styles, and it tends to kind of push us away and it tends to kind of push us away and it tends to kind of push us away from a couple of those. But that thing from a couple of those. But that thing from a couple of those. But that thing that most people would say, "Hey, they that most people would say, "Hey, they that most people would say, "Hey, they just have leadership on them," very good just have leadership on them," very good just have leadership on them," very good indication that they might have that indication that they might have that indication that they might have that founder uh DNA in them. Now, they could founder uh DNA in them. Now, they could founder uh DNA in them. Now, they could be an intrapreneur or an entrepreneur.

be an intrapreneur or an entrepreneur. be an intrapreneur or an entrepreneur. There's a whole discussion around that, There's a whole discussion around that, There's a whole discussion around that, but that's one of them. but that's one of them. but that's one of them. When when you're looking at it from the When when you're looking at it from the When when you're looking at it from the other side of that equation, so someone other side of that equation, so someone other side of that equation, so someone sitting there is thinking, "Hey, sitting there is thinking, "Hey, sitting there is thinking, "Hey, maybe I have founder DNA." maybe I have founder DNA." maybe I have founder DNA." There's a couple things that I encourage There's a couple things that I encourage There's a couple things that I encourage folks to think about. The first one is folks to think about. The first one is folks to think about. The first one is uh there's there's basically not a uh there's there's basically not a uh there's there's basically not a single founder who's gone out, made the single founder who's gone out, made the single founder who's gone out, made the leap, and succeeded who hasn't done it leap, and succeeded who hasn't done it leap, and succeeded who hasn't done it leaving a job that they absolutely loved leaving a job that they absolutely loved leaving a job that they absolutely loved and everything was perfect. Mhm. Right? and everything was perfect. Mhm. Right? and everything was perfect. Mhm. Right? There's this dissatisfaction There's this dissatisfaction There's this dissatisfaction that is brewing. Now, it may not be on that is brewing. Now, it may not be on that is brewing. Now, it may not be on the surface. You may not be telling the surface. You may not be telling the surface. You may not be telling anybody about it, but you wake up each anybody about it, but you wake up each anybody about it, but you wake up each morning thinking like there's got to be morning thinking like there's got to be morning thinking like there's got to be a better way. a better way. a better way. There's got to be a better way to serve There's got to be a better way to serve There's got to be a better way to serve our customers. There's got to be a our customers. There's got to be a our customers. There's got to be a better way to preach the gospel. There's better way to preach the gospel. There's better way to preach the gospel. There's got to be a better way to whatever, got to be a better way to whatever, got to be a better way to whatever, right? That and it shows up in a right? That and it shows up in a right? That and it shows up in a thousand different ways, but we're thousand different ways, but we're thousand different ways, but we're almost consumed by this idea that almost consumed by this idea that almost consumed by this idea that there's got to be a better way. And so there's got to be a better way. And so there's got to be a better way. And so the the dissatisfaction in us is not the the dissatisfaction in us is not the the dissatisfaction in us is not that we have a bad job or a bad boss, that we have a bad job or a bad boss, that we have a bad job or a bad boss, right? If you have a bad job or a bad right? If you have a bad job or a bad right? If you have a bad job or a bad boss, get a new boss or a new job, boss, get a new boss or a new job, boss, get a new boss or a new job, right? Like that that's a that's a much right? Like that that's a that's a much right? Like that that's a that's a much simpler solution than starting your own simpler solution than starting your own simpler solution than starting your own organization of any kind.

organization of any kind. organization of any kind. Uh Uh Uh And and so founders, you know, And and so founders, you know, And and so founders, you know, that feeling of dissatisfaction doesn't that feeling of dissatisfaction doesn't that feeling of dissatisfaction doesn't go away when their circumstances change. go away when their circumstances change. go away when their circumstances change. Mhm. Right? They get the new boss and Mhm. Right? They get the new boss and Mhm. Right? They get the new boss and it's like they're great, but there's it's like they're great, but there's it's like they're great, but there's still something in me that's that I I I still something in me that's that I I I still something in me that's that I I I can't get in this environment. And can't get in this environment. And can't get in this environment. And that's really what separates founders that's really what separates founders that's really what separates founders from the rest. Andy Stanley has put it from the rest. Andy Stanley has put it from the rest. Andy Stanley has put it this way. He says, "That's a person this way. He says, "That's a person this way. He says, "That's a person sitting in the crowd or sitting in a sitting in the crowd or sitting in a sitting in the crowd or sitting in a staff meeting going, I could do a better staff meeting going, I could do a better staff meeting going, I could do a better job than that." Right? job than that." Right? job than that." Right? And we mostly have those and I've been And we mostly have those and I've been And we mostly have those and I've been that person. It's funny you mention that person. It's funny you mention that person. It's funny you mention that. I that. I that. I I have not applied for a job since I was I have not applied for a job since I was I have not applied for a job since I was 30 years old. That was almost 30 years 30 years old. That was almost 30 years 30 years old. That was almost 30 years ago. And I haven't had a current resume ago. And I haven't had a current resume ago. And I haven't had a current resume in in in three decades. Interesting profile for a three decades. Interesting profile for a three decades. Interesting profile for a founder, right? founder, right? founder, right? It's just you make you make your own It's just you make you make your own It's just you make you make your own jobs after a while. Yeah. I'm curious. jobs after a while. Yeah. I'm curious. jobs after a while. Yeah. I'm curious. Um Um Um When you look at if there were five When you look at if there were five When you look at if there were five or so, three to five attributes, or so, three to five attributes, or so, three to five attributes, qualities, character traits qualities, character traits qualities, character traits that make up an entrepreneur. And I'm that make up an entrepreneur. And I'm that make up an entrepreneur. And I'm I'm I'm asking this question on behalf I'm I'm asking this question on behalf I'm I'm asking this question on behalf of those of those of those who are thinking, "I don't know whether who are thinking, "I don't know whether who are thinking, "I don't know whether I got what it takes to start it." Or I I got what it takes to start it." Or I I got what it takes to start it." Or I started something and I don't cuz I've started something and I don't cuz I've started something and I don't cuz I've had friends too who have started things had friends too who have started things had friends too who have started things and then they've gone to work for other and then they've gone to work for other and then they've gone to work for other organizations. And and some of them some organizations. And and some of them some organizations. And and some of them some of them it was because it didn't work of them it was because it didn't work of them it was because it didn't work out. Others because out. Others because out. Others because honestly, they're just happier there.

honestly, they're just happier there. honestly, they're just happier there. They were very successful on their own, They were very successful on their own, They were very successful on their own, but they're like, "Nah, I think I'm but they're like, "Nah, I think I'm but they're like, "Nah, I think I'm better off as part of a larger better off as part of a larger better off as part of a larger organization." Yeah. organization." Yeah. organization." Yeah. So, you know, if if you look at what So, you know, if if you look at what So, you know, if if you look at what does it take for a founder to be a does it take for a founder to be a does it take for a founder to be a founder? Um what are the qualities or founder? Um what are the qualities or founder? Um what are the qualities or characteristics if you had to list three characteristics if you had to list three characteristics if you had to list three to five? to five? to five? Yeah, a few of them. So, the first one Yeah, a few of them. So, the first one Yeah, a few of them. So, the first one is is is is like that drive for vision, right? is like that drive for vision, right? is like that drive for vision, right? You see something that most people You see something that most people You see something that most people don't. It it might be it might feel like don't. It it might be it might feel like don't. It it might be it might feel like it's just 3 ft in front of you or 30,000 it's just 3 ft in front of you or 30,000 it's just 3 ft in front of you or 30,000 mi in front of you, right? But there's a mi in front of you, right? But there's a mi in front of you, right? But there's a sense of you're sitting in the room sense of you're sitting in the room sense of you're sitting in the room thinking, "Why don't they see it?" thinking, "Why don't they see it?" thinking, "Why don't they see it?" Right? Why don't they get it? That's a a Right? Why don't they get it? That's a a Right? Why don't they get it? That's a a great hallmark for a founder. Uh another great hallmark for a founder. Uh another great hallmark for a founder. Uh another one is you walk into a room, right? With one is you walk into a room, right? With one is you walk into a room, right? With a bunch of people in an industry that a bunch of people in an industry that a bunch of people in an industry that you've never even heard of. And up on you've never even heard of. And up on you've never even heard of. And up on the whiteboard is there's a there's this the whiteboard is there's a there's this the whiteboard is there's a there's this big statement. It's a problem that the big statement. It's a problem that the big statement. It's a problem that the industry's been facing for a a hundred industry's been facing for a a hundred industry's been facing for a a hundred years, right? And you look at that board years, right? And you look at that board years, right? And you look at that board and you instantly and automatically have and you instantly and automatically have and you instantly and automatically have five ideas on how to fix it. Right? It's five ideas on how to fix it. Right? It's five ideas on how to fix it. Right? It's just just just It's You don't even try. It's just It's You don't even try. It's just It's You don't even try. It's just there, right? Now, they might be there, right? Now, they might be there, right? Now, they might be terrible ideas. They might have tried terrible ideas. They might have tried terrible ideas. They might have tried all of them. They might be wonderful all of them. They might be wonderful all of them. They might be wonderful ideas. The fact is that they they come ideas. The fact is that they they come ideas. The fact is that they they come automatically.

automatically. automatically. Right? That and and the reason why Right? That and and the reason why Right? That and and the reason why that's so important is one, you need that's so important is one, you need that's so important is one, you need space to exercise that gift. And space to exercise that gift. And space to exercise that gift. And entrepreneurism often provides that type entrepreneurism often provides that type entrepreneurism often provides that type of freedom. Two, you have to have that of freedom. Two, you have to have that of freedom. Two, you have to have that gift to get through the early days gift to get through the early days gift to get through the early days because whatever your idea is for your because whatever your idea is for your because whatever your idea is for your business, it's not going to work. You're business, it's not going to work. You're business, it's not going to work. You're going to have to go through two, three, going to have to go through two, three, going to have to go through two, three, five, 50 big pivots before you really five, 50 big pivots before you really five, 50 big pivots before you really find a viable business. And if you don't find a viable business. And if you don't find a viable business. And if you don't have that ability to to see what it have that ability to to see what it have that ability to to see what it could be and to rapidly, you know, come could be and to rapidly, you know, come could be and to rapidly, you know, come up with new ideas and solutions on how up with new ideas and solutions on how up with new ideas and solutions on how to get around the obstacles that you to get around the obstacles that you to get around the obstacles that you face face face and enjoy that process, and enjoy that process, and enjoy that process, you're going to fall short, right? And you're going to fall short, right? And you're going to fall short, right? And so those are those are two really, so those are those are two really, so those are those are two really, really big ones. And then I would say really big ones. And then I would say really big ones. And then I would say the third one is is that the third one is is that the third one is is that dissatisfaction, which oftentimes comes dissatisfaction, which oftentimes comes dissatisfaction, which oftentimes comes from the other two. But that from the other two. But that from the other two. But that dissatisfaction is really important dissatisfaction is really important dissatisfaction is really important because it is the fuel that will drive because it is the fuel that will drive because it is the fuel that will drive you to figure it out. One of the reason you to figure it out. One of the reason you to figure it out. One of the reason a lot of new businesses fail is because a lot of new businesses fail is because a lot of new businesses fail is because they it doesn't have to work.

they it doesn't have to work. they it doesn't have to work. Right. Right. Right. have my regular job and I can go back to have my regular job and I can go back to have my regular job and I can go back to it. it. it. I I'm still employable in another I I'm still employable in another I I'm still employable in another environment. And so when it gets really environment. And so when it gets really environment. And so when it gets really hard hard hard the the level of dissatisfaction with the the level of dissatisfaction with the the level of dissatisfaction with that option isn't high enough to keep us that option isn't high enough to keep us that option isn't high enough to keep us going. going. going. So, those would be the three for me. So, So, those would be the three for me. So, So, those would be the three for me. So, you have to have a vision, right? You you have to have a vision, right? You you have to have a vision, right? You wonder why other people can't see it. wonder why other people can't see it. wonder why other people can't see it. You have the ability to come up with You have the ability to come up with You have the ability to come up with ideas seemingly effortlessly. And three ideas seemingly effortlessly. And three ideas seemingly effortlessly. And three there's a frustration in you about being there's a frustration in you about being there's a frustration in you about being employed that maybe you can't even employed that maybe you can't even employed that maybe you can't even explain. That's okay, but it doesn't go explain. That's okay, but it doesn't go explain. That's okay, but it doesn't go away when you move from one job to away when you move from one job to away when you move from one job to another or one boss to another. Ah, another or one boss to another. Ah, another or one boss to another. Ah, that's really good. Okay, so pattern that's really good. Okay, so pattern that's really good. Okay, so pattern recognition, 20,000 businesses one way recognition, 20,000 businesses one way recognition, 20,000 businesses one way or the other that you've been involved or the other that you've been involved or the other that you've been involved in helping businesses, churches, etc. in helping businesses, churches, etc. in helping businesses, churches, etc. So, you work with Les McKeown. We've had So, you work with Les McKeown. We've had So, you work with Les McKeown. We've had Les on the podcast numerous times. I Les on the podcast numerous times. I Les on the podcast numerous times. I absolutely love his work. Um absolutely love his work. Um absolutely love his work. Um what is the pattern you see among what is the pattern you see among what is the pattern you see among founders? founders? founders? Yeah. So, for those who who who know Yeah. So, for those who who who know Yeah. So, for those who who who know Les's work Les's work Les's work and if you don't, check out some of the and if you don't, check out some of the and if you don't, check out some of the inner inner inner inner inner inner Predictable Success. Huge huge book for Predictable Success. Huge huge book for Predictable Success. Huge huge book for me.

me. me. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. Yeah. Uh this will make a little bit Yeah. Uh this will make a little bit Yeah. Uh this will make a little bit more sense if you know what it is, but more sense if you know what it is, but more sense if you know what it is, but what Les did was laid out the stages what Les did was laid out the stages what Les did was laid out the stages that organizations go through. He he he that organizations go through. He he he that organizations go through. He he he really changed well, changed the way you really changed well, changed the way you really changed well, changed the way you think about an organization not from think about an organization not from think about an organization not from what do we need to do, but when do we what do we need to do, but when do we what do we need to do, but when do we need to do it, right? What creates need to do it, right? What creates need to do it, right? What creates success changes from stage to stage. And success changes from stage to stage. And success changes from stage to stage. And and so he and I have worked together for and so he and I have worked together for and so he and I have worked together for four years now, something like that. Had four years now, something like that. Had four years now, something like that. Had an opportunity to work really closely an opportunity to work really closely an opportunity to work really closely with him and I've walked organization with him and I've walked organization with him and I've walked organization after organization to Predictable after organization to Predictable after organization to Predictable Success. And one of the things that I Success. And one of the things that I Success. And one of the things that I found as kind of a practitioner, not found as kind of a practitioner, not found as kind of a practitioner, not just using this in my own business, just using this in my own business, just using this in my own business, which I did as well, but helping other which I did as well, but helping other which I did as well, but helping other business owners to achieve Predictable business owners to achieve Predictable business owners to achieve Predictable Success is that the number one stumbling Success is that the number one stumbling Success is that the number one stumbling block for for that is is not any of the block for for that is is not any of the block for for that is is not any of the tips or tactics or tricks or things that tips or tactics or tricks or things that tips or tactics or tricks or things that we we we teach them how to do. It's not we we we teach them how to do. It's not we we we teach them how to do. It's not your team. It's not any of those things. your team. It's not any of those things. your team. It's not any of those things. It's the the founder. Uh it's it's that It's the the founder. Uh it's it's that It's the the founder. Uh it's it's that or the business owner in in the case of or the business owner in in the case of or the business owner in in the case of succession and it's that they are not succession and it's that they are not succession and it's that they are not willing to embrace the the next stage of willing to embrace the the next stage of willing to embrace the the next stage of their own personal journey.

their own personal journey. their own personal journey. Mhm. And so in the same way that Mhm. And so in the same way that Mhm. And so in the same way that organizations pass through seven organizations pass through seven organizations pass through seven distinct stages, uh founders pass distinct stages, uh founders pass distinct stages, uh founders pass through seven stages as well. From through seven stages as well. From through seven stages as well. From pre-launch to to post-exit or pre-launch to to post-exit or pre-launch to to post-exit or Predictable Success for those who who Predictable Success for those who who Predictable Success for those who who know about it, there are know about it, there are know about it, there are very definite and distinct stages that very definite and distinct stages that very definite and distinct stages that founders go through. And if we don't founders go through. And if we don't founders go through. And if we don't one, recognize that stages are a thing one, recognize that stages are a thing one, recognize that stages are a thing or two, we don't recognize what stage or two, we don't recognize what stage or two, we don't recognize what stage we're in, it's virtually impossible to we're in, it's virtually impossible to we're in, it's virtually impossible to know what we need to do individually know what we need to do individually know what we need to do individually right now to succeed. And number one right now to succeed. And number one right now to succeed. And number one symptom of this, right? And and uh symptom of this, right? And and uh symptom of this, right? And and uh we'll see we'll see where it goes after we'll see we'll see where it goes after we'll see we'll see where it goes after that, but number one symptom of this is that, but number one symptom of this is that, but number one symptom of this is you're you're overworked, you're you're you're overworked, you're you're you're overworked, you're exhausted, right? You'd probably have exhausted, right? You'd probably have exhausted, right? You'd probably have quit attending the church that you lead quit attending the church that you lead quit attending the church that you lead if you weren't leading it, right? if you weren't leading it, right? if you weren't leading it, right? You yeah. You yeah. You yeah. There's there's if if you're sitting There's there's if if you're sitting There's there's if if you're sitting there, you have a successful there, you have a successful there, you have a successful organization and you're so overwhelmed organization and you're so overwhelmed organization and you're so overwhelmed by the pressure of all that success, by the pressure of all that success, by the pressure of all that success, it's probably because you don't it's probably because you don't it's probably because you don't recognize how the game has changed and recognize how the game has changed and recognize how the game has changed and how you need to change the way you show how you need to change the way you show how you need to change the way you show up as a founder.

up as a founder. up as a founder. All right. Can you walk us through the All right. Can you walk us through the All right. Can you walk us through the seven stages, phases that founders, seven stages, phases that founders, seven stages, phases that founders, church planters, CEOs tend well, startup church planters, CEOs tend well, startup church planters, CEOs tend well, startup people tend to go through? people tend to go through? people tend to go through? Yes. So, and I I love it because it is Yes. So, and I I love it because it is Yes. So, and I I love it because it is equally true in both the nonprofit and equally true in both the nonprofit and equally true in both the nonprofit and for-profit space. for-profit space. for-profit space. Yeah, it's just human nature, right? Yeah, it's just human nature, right? Yeah, it's just human nature, right? It's like It's like It's like last two last two last two Yeah. have Yeah, there's a different Yeah. have Yeah, there's a different Yeah. have Yeah, there's a different expression and we'll get to that in a expression and we'll get to that in a expression and we'll get to that in a second, but all the way up through stage second, but all the way up through stage second, but all the way up through stage five, it's one to one. five, it's one to one. five, it's one to one. Uh so, it starts before you start and Uh so, it starts before you start and Uh so, it starts before you start and actually the very first stage is that actually the very first stage is that actually the very first stage is that period of dissatisfaction. I call it the period of dissatisfaction. I call it the period of dissatisfaction. I call it the dissatisfied employee, right? And and dissatisfied employee, right? And and dissatisfied employee, right? And and when you look at it, it's not just a when you look at it, it's not just a when you look at it, it's not just a correlation. correlation. correlation. That is the causation for founders. It's That is the causation for founders. It's That is the causation for founders. It's a necessary requisite. Now, you may not a necessary requisite. Now, you may not a necessary requisite. Now, you may not be an employee. You might be a be an employee. You might be a be an employee. You might be a dissatisfied college student. You dissatisfied college student. You dissatisfied college student. You It's it's not that specific, but that It's it's not that specific, but that It's it's not that specific, but that dissatisfaction is the key piece. dissatisfaction is the key piece. dissatisfaction is the key piece. And what I liken it to in in the book And what I liken it to in in the book And what I liken it to in in the book that I wrote on these different stages, that I wrote on these different stages, that I wrote on these different stages, um we go back a step. One of the things um we go back a step. One of the things um we go back a step. One of the things that makes these stages so hard is that that makes these stages so hard is that that makes these stages so hard is that they're invisible. They're very real.

they're invisible. They're very real. they're invisible. They're very real. They happen to everybody, but there's no They happen to everybody, but there's no They happen to everybody, but there's no visible proof that it it changes. Uh I visible proof that it it changes. Uh I visible proof that it it changes. Uh I mean, give you an example where that's mean, give you an example where that's mean, give you an example where that's not true. So, let's say the leadership not true. So, let's say the leadership not true. So, let's say the leadership journey of an employee, right? Just your journey of an employee, right? Just your journey of an employee, right? Just your average Joe. average Joe. average Joe. Their their version of this is they're Their their version of this is they're Their their version of this is they're in college, right? They're they're not in college, right? They're they're not in college, right? They're they're not in the game yet. They're not working. in the game yet. They're not working. in the game yet. They're not working. They're learning how to play the game. They're learning how to play the game. They're learning how to play the game. Uh they they get a job. They're a Uh they they get a job. They're a Uh they they get a job. They're a frontline employee. next stage of the frontline employee. next stage of the frontline employee. next stage of the the their evolution as an as a leader, the their evolution as an as a leader, the their evolution as an as a leader, as an employee, and they do a great job. as an employee, and they do a great job. as an employee, and they do a great job. What do we do with employees who do a What do we do with employees who do a What do we do with employees who do a great job? We promote them to be great job? We promote them to be great job? We promote them to be leaders, you know, team lead, project leaders, you know, team lead, project leaders, you know, team lead, project lead. And and what hap- There are entire lead. And and what hap- There are entire lead. And and what hap- There are entire books and coaching practices and people books and coaching practices and people books and coaching practices and people who do nothing other than help employees who do nothing other than help employees who do nothing other than help employees make that one transition, right? It's a make that one transition, right? It's a make that one transition, right? It's a very difficult transition to make from very difficult transition to make from very difficult transition to make from being responsible for yourself to being being responsible for yourself to being being responsible for yourself to being responsible for a group of other people responsible for a group of other people responsible for a group of other people while still having your own while still having your own while still having your own responsibilities. I call that going from responsibilities. I call that going from responsibilities. I call that going from star player to captain on the field. star player to captain on the field. star player to captain on the field. And and the advantage that an employee And and the advantage that an employee And and the advantage that an employee has over a founder is that they got a has over a founder is that they got a has over a founder is that they got a new title in the process, right? There's new title in the process, right? There's new title in the process, right? There's somebody else who said, "Hey, you now somebody else who said, "Hey, you now somebody else who said, "Hey, you now have a different role. Now you have to have a different role. Now you have to have a different role. Now you have to change your skill set to succeed in that change your skill set to succeed in that change your skill set to succeed in that role."

role." role." When does that happen for founders and When does that happen for founders and When does that happen for founders and who tells them that? who tells them that? who tells them that? Right? And so the problem with this Right? And so the problem with this Right? And so the problem with this journey and why I wrote the book journey and why I wrote the book journey and why I wrote the book specifically for founders even though specifically for founders even though specifically for founders even though it's the same journey that we all go it's the same journey that we all go it's the same journey that we all go through is that for founders it's through is that for founders it's through is that for founders it's invisible. invisible. invisible. That there's no clear delineation of That there's no clear delineation of That there's no clear delineation of each of these stages, so we've got to each of these stages, so we've got to each of these stages, so we've got to come up with another way of of paying come up with another way of of paying come up with another way of of paying attention to this and and seeing what attention to this and and seeing what attention to this and and seeing what these milestones are, what the these milestones are, what the these milestones are, what the transition points are. transition points are. transition points are. All that to to set up the the transition All that to to set up the the transition All that to to set up the the transition from stage one to stage two is actually from stage one to stage two is actually from stage one to stage two is actually the most visible of all of them and that the most visible of all of them and that the most visible of all of them and that is going from that dissatisfied employee is going from that dissatisfied employee is going from that dissatisfied employee to stepping into the game, becoming what to stepping into the game, becoming what to stepping into the game, becoming what I call the startup entrepreneur, right? I call the startup entrepreneur, right? I call the startup entrepreneur, right? It's where we go full-time in whatever It's where we go full-time in whatever It's where we go full-time in whatever it is. It's not a side hustle anymore. it is. It's not a side hustle anymore. it is. It's not a side hustle anymore. It's it's you know, it has to pay the It's it's you know, it has to pay the It's it's you know, it has to pay the bills. That's when it gets real. That's bills. That's when it gets real. That's bills. That's when it gets real. That's when you enter the the the world of when you enter the the the world of when you enter the the the world of entrepreneurs. And like I mentioned entrepreneurs. And like I mentioned entrepreneurs. And like I mentioned earlier, it's about being the star earlier, it's about being the star earlier, it's about being the star player. So what it takes to succeed is player. So what it takes to succeed is player. So what it takes to succeed is being good at what you do, right? If being good at what you do, right? If being good at what you do, right? If you're a a pastor, it's about selling you're a a pastor, it's about selling you're a a pastor, it's about selling the vision to your launch your the vision to your launch your the vision to your launch your pre-launch team, right? Uh to to raising pre-launch team, right? Uh to to raising pre-launch team, right? Uh to to raising support and getting the resources that support and getting the resources that support and getting the resources that you need to start off, right? If you're you need to start off, right? If you're you need to start off, right? If you're an entrepreneur, uh you know, it might an entrepreneur, uh you know, it might an entrepreneur, uh you know, it might be the venture capital thing, but that's be the venture capital thing, but that's be the venture capital thing, but that's not most people. Most people it's can not most people. Most people it's can not most people. Most people it's can you sell what you do, right? And you sell what you do, right? And you sell what you do, right? And specifically, can you sell what you do specifically, can you sell what you do specifically, can you sell what you do to people who don't already trust you?

to people who don't already trust you? to people who don't already trust you? And and it's very much about your own And and it's very much about your own And and it's very much about your own skills and abilities as an entrepreneur. skills and abilities as an entrepreneur. skills and abilities as an entrepreneur. If you can't get it done, it's not going If you can't get it done, it's not going If you can't get it done, it's not going to happen cuz it's just you. to happen cuz it's just you. to happen cuz it's just you. And uh and so we we we tend to dial in And uh and so we we we tend to dial in And uh and so we we we tend to dial in and learn, hey, when I say this, they and learn, hey, when I say this, they and learn, hey, when I say this, they buy. When I say this, they don't buy. Uh buy. When I say this, they don't buy. Uh buy. When I say this, they don't buy. Uh once I sell something, oh, now I have to once I sell something, oh, now I have to once I sell something, oh, now I have to go and do it. You know, there's there's go and do it. You know, there's there's go and do it. You know, there's there's a whole challenge to that, but what a whole challenge to that, but what a whole challenge to that, but what happens when we're successful is more happens when we're successful is more happens when we're successful is more happens, right? We we we we get more happens, right? We we we we get more happens, right? We we we we get more sales and we have to do more stuff and sales and we have to do more stuff and sales and we have to do more stuff and and we're either selling or doing and we and we're either selling or doing and we and we're either selling or doing and we get kind of stuck in this this loop and get kind of stuck in this this loop and get kind of stuck in this this loop and we realize, hey, I can't do this all by we realize, hey, I can't do this all by we realize, hey, I can't do this all by myself. I I can't get this thing to myself. I I can't get this thing to myself. I I can't get this thing to scale all by myself. I need to have scale all by myself. I need to have scale all by myself. I need to have help. And so we go out and we start help. And so we go out and we start help. And so we go out and we start bringing in a couple of folks. And the bringing in a couple of folks. And the bringing in a couple of folks. And the first couple are are relatively simple, first couple are are relatively simple, first couple are are relatively simple, right? It's like your niece to help with right? It's like your niece to help with right? It's like your niece to help with your social media and your uncle who, your social media and your uncle who, your social media and your uncle who, you know, does books for a Fortune 500 you know, does books for a Fortune 500 you know, does books for a Fortune 500 who can do your accounting for you. You who can do your accounting for you. You who can do your accounting for you. You know, it's just that it's kind of know, it's just that it's kind of know, it's just that it's kind of whatever our we hire by proximity. whatever our we hire by proximity. whatever our we hire by proximity. And and not a whole lot changes. We've And and not a whole lot changes. We've And and not a whole lot changes. We've got a couple people that help us out. got a couple people that help us out. got a couple people that help us out. It's good and we're it's still if it's It's good and we're it's still if it's It's good and we're it's still if it's to be, it's up to me. And then I can to be, it's up to me. And then I can to be, it's up to me. And then I can hand off a few things here and there.

hand off a few things here and there. hand off a few things here and there. There's no real fundamental shift. So There's no real fundamental shift. So There's no real fundamental shift. So this is from stage one to two, is it? this is from stage one to two, is it? this is from stage one to two, is it? This is so that's we're in stage two This is so that's we're in stage two This is so that's we're in stage two now, right? now, right? now, right? it. And and as we're hiring our first it. And and as we're hiring our first it. And and as we're hiring our first couple employees, it all happens in couple employees, it all happens in couple employees, it all happens in stage two. There's not actually a shift stage two. There's not actually a shift stage two. There's not actually a shift for the first one, two, maybe three, but for the first one, two, maybe three, but for the first one, two, maybe three, but somewhere around that handful of somewhere around that handful of somewhere around that handful of employees employees employees and stage two? I just want to be clear. and stage two? I just want to be clear. and stage two? I just want to be clear. So stage one is called dissatisfied So stage one is called dissatisfied So stage one is called dissatisfied employee. Okay, stage two is called employee. Okay, stage two is called employee. Okay, stage two is called startup entrepreneur. Got it. Okay, and startup entrepreneur. Got it. Okay, and startup entrepreneur. Got it. Okay, and that could be solopreneur or me and a that could be solopreneur or me and a that could be solopreneur or me and a couple of people who are willing to couple of people who are willing to couple of people who are willing to help. As exactly, you and your VA and a help. As exactly, you and your VA and a help. As exactly, you and your VA and a couple of contractors, you and a few couple of contractors, you and a few couple of contractors, you and a few part-time employees, but sometime part-time employees, but sometime part-time employees, but sometime you're in that stage two, you're doing a you're in that stage two, you're doing a you're in that stage two, you're doing a great job. And sometime after you hire a great job. And sometime after you hire a great job. And sometime after you hire a handful, right? That that's that's my handful, right? That that's that's my handful, right? That that's that's my scientific advice here for scientific advice here for scientific advice here for when we switch from stage two to stage when we switch from stage two to stage when we switch from stage two to stage three happens around a handful of three happens around a handful of three happens around a handful of employees. employees. employees. What do I mean by that? It happens when What do I mean by that? It happens when What do I mean by that? It happens when you wake up one morning, right? It's you wake up one morning, right? It's you wake up one morning, right? It's usually a Monday or a Thursday.

usually a Monday or a Thursday. usually a Monday or a Thursday. We we wake up and and the defining We we wake up and and the defining We we wake up and and the defining thought in our mind is thought in our mind is thought in our mind is what's wrong with these people? Right? what's wrong with these people? Right? what's wrong with these people? Right? Like like Like like Like like what what is wrong with these people? what what is wrong with these people? what what is wrong with these people? Because Because Because you when you have that many other people you when you have that many other people you when you have that many other people around you and you're responsible for around you and you're responsible for around you and you're responsible for getting them all moving in a helpful getting them all moving in a helpful getting them all moving in a helpful direction all the time, you find that direction all the time, you find that direction all the time, you find that you're spending less and less time doing you're spending less and less time doing you're spending less and less time doing your job and more and more time helping your job and more and more time helping your job and more and more time helping them do their job. them do their job. them do their job. And particularly in the the for-profit And particularly in the the for-profit And particularly in the the for-profit world, you now have a payroll of five, world, you now have a payroll of five, world, you now have a payroll of five, you know, heads you know, heads you know, heads you know, to to cover, five families to you know, to to cover, five families to you know, to to cover, five families to feed. So you're having to sell more and feed. So you're having to sell more and feed. So you're having to sell more and you have less time to do that because you have less time to do that because you have less time to do that because you're having to manage all these you're having to manage all these you're having to manage all these people. people. people. And Carrie, you told me you I mean And Carrie, you told me you I mean And Carrie, you told me you I mean you've talked to a lot of people, maybe you've talked to a lot of people, maybe you've talked to a lot of people, maybe you've met someone like this, but I have you've met someone like this, but I have you've met someone like this, but I have never met a founder who started their never met a founder who started their never met a founder who started their business with the dream of managing business with the dream of managing business with the dream of managing people. people. people. Yes. It is it is the necessary evil that Yes. It is it is the necessary evil that Yes. It is it is the necessary evil that comes with the way we think of it that comes with the way we think of it that comes with the way we think of it that comes with leading things. Because a lot comes with leading things. Because a lot comes with leading things. Because a lot of people are artists or crafts people, of people are artists or crafts people, of people are artists or crafts people, so to speak. In other words, what I so to speak. In other words, what I so to speak. In other words, what I really want to do is write, what I really want to do is write, what I really want to do is write, what I really want to do is preach, what I really want to do is preach, what I really want to do is preach, what I really want to do is cook meals if you really want to do is cook meals if you really want to do is cook meals if you open a restaurant, what I really want to open a restaurant, what I really want to open a restaurant, what I really want to do is do is do is fill in the blank. I love repairing fill in the blank. I love repairing fill in the blank. I love repairing cars, right? Or I love coding.

cars, right? Or I love coding. cars, right? Or I love coding. So you're sort of the crafts person who So you're sort of the crafts person who So you're sort of the crafts person who wants to do it. You get overwhelmed, you wants to do it. You get overwhelmed, you wants to do it. You get overwhelmed, you hire people. All of a sudden you're a hire people. All of a sudden you're a hire people. All of a sudden you're a leader. leader. leader. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and you nailed it and this is so And and you nailed it and this is so And and you nailed it and this is so true. true. true. And I I actually really struggled with And I I actually really struggled with And I I actually really struggled with this stage for a long time because it this stage for a long time because it this stage for a long time because it it's it it it's it's got a negative it's it it it's it's got a negative it's it it it's it's got a negative name. I'll tell you what it is here in name. I'll tell you what it is here in name. I'll tell you what it is here in just a second. But I I I didn't want to just a second. But I I I didn't want to just a second. But I I I didn't want to call it a negative name cuz who wants to call it a negative name cuz who wants to call it a negative name cuz who wants to like step up to the next level and it be like step up to the next level and it be like step up to the next level and it be the reluctant manager, right? Like that the reluctant manager, right? Like that the reluctant manager, right? Like that that's that's not what we want. And but that's that's not what we want. And but that's that's not what we want. And but that's what stage three is. Okay, that's what stage three is. Okay, that's what stage three is. Okay, reluctant manager. Stage three is the reluctant manager. Stage three is the reluctant manager. Stage three is the reluctant manager and it's like being reluctant manager and it's like being reluctant manager and it's like being the captain on the field. And and the captain on the field. And and the captain on the field. And and there's a couple things that make this there's a couple things that make this there's a couple things that make this really hard. One, most visionary really hard. One, most visionary really hard. One, most visionary founders are not wired to be managers, founders are not wired to be managers, founders are not wired to be managers, right? If they were, they would be an right? If they were, they would be an right? If they were, they would be an employee who's a manager somewhere else employee who's a manager somewhere else employee who's a manager somewhere else and crushing it. So it just does not and crushing it. So it just does not and crushing it. So it just does not align with the natural skill set of most align with the natural skill set of most align with the natural skill set of most founders. Second, founders. Second, founders. Second, um because it didn't happen at the first um because it didn't happen at the first um because it didn't happen at the first employee or two, we miss the fact that employee or two, we miss the fact that employee or two, we miss the fact that it happens at employee five to 10. So it it happens at employee five to 10. So it it happens at employee five to 10. So it doesn't feel like anything actually doesn't feel like anything actually doesn't feel like anything actually change.

change. change. Right, it was helpful for a minute and Right, it was helpful for a minute and Right, it was helpful for a minute and now it's chaos. Yes, exactly. So there's now it's chaos. Yes, exactly. So there's now it's chaos. Yes, exactly. So there's no real Why is this changing now? Why is no real Why is this changing now? Why is no real Why is this changing now? Why is it so hard now? it so hard now? it so hard now? And and then the third part is the folks And and then the third part is the folks And and then the third part is the folks who who make great employees who who make great employees who who make great employees really anytime, but mostly at this really anytime, but mostly at this really anytime, but mostly at this stage, they don't think like you. They stage, they don't think like you. They stage, they don't think like you. They don't act like you. They don't take don't act like you. They don't take don't act like you. They don't take ownership like you. ownership like you. ownership like you. They don't make decisions like you, They don't make decisions like you, They don't make decisions like you, right? They don't solve problems like right? They don't solve problems like right? They don't solve problems like you. And and you're thinking like you. And and you're thinking like you. And and you're thinking like like what's wrong with these people, but like what's wrong with these people, but like what's wrong with these people, but the truth is it would be 10 times worse the truth is it would be 10 times worse the truth is it would be 10 times worse if they did. Could you imagine a whole if they did. Could you imagine a whole if they did. Could you imagine a whole like 10 of you trying to run around with like 10 of you trying to run around with like 10 of you trying to run around with Oh my goodness, it would be chaos. So Oh my goodness, it would be chaos. So Oh my goodness, it would be chaos. So because they're not like us, we have to because they're not like us, we have to because they're not like us, we have to learn the skill of managing people who learn the skill of managing people who learn the skill of managing people who aren't like us, of of motivating people aren't like us, of of motivating people aren't like us, of of motivating people who aren't like us, but also filtering who aren't like us, but also filtering who aren't like us, but also filtering out the people who aren't like us, but out the people who aren't like us, but out the people who aren't like us, but aren't right for right now, either.

aren't right for right now, either. aren't right for right now, either. So just because not your your employees So just because not your your employees So just because not your your employees aren't like you, I'm not saying that aren't like you, I'm not saying that aren't like you, I'm not saying that that means that they should work for that means that they should work for that means that they should work for you, right? That there's this there's you, right? That there's this there's you, right? That there's this there's this tension that we have to wrestle this tension that we have to wrestle this tension that we have to wrestle between there's me, there's people who between there's me, there's people who between there's me, there's people who aren't like me, but are really effective aren't like me, but are really effective aren't like me, but are really effective and what I need to learn to lead, and and what I need to learn to lead, and and what I need to learn to lead, and then there's the people I hired by then there's the people I hired by then there's the people I hired by proximity that should not be working for proximity that should not be working for proximity that should not be working for my company. But it's all just this big my company. But it's all just this big my company. But it's all just this big mess cuz you're in the game. You don't mess cuz you're in the game. You don't mess cuz you're in the game. You don't have time to sit down and figure out have time to sit down and figure out have time to sit down and figure out what all those categories are and what's what all those categories are and what's what all those categories are and what's different and who should be here and who different and who should be here and who different and who should be here and who shouldn't. You know, it you know, if shouldn't. You know, it you know, if shouldn't. You know, it you know, if this was football, somebody would try to this was football, somebody would try to this was football, somebody would try to take your head off every 11 seconds. You take your head off every 11 seconds. You take your head off every 11 seconds. You know, it's it it feels like that in know, it's it it feels like that in know, it's it it feels like that in entrepreneurism. So entrepreneurism. So entrepreneurism. So we have this reluctant manager stage we have this reluctant manager stage we have this reluctant manager stage that we all go through and you have to that we all go through and you have to that we all go through and you have to learn to embrace it. If you want your learn to embrace it. If you want your learn to embrace it. If you want your organization to be more than what you organization to be more than what you organization to be more than what you could do as startup entrepreneur, could do as startup entrepreneur, could do as startup entrepreneur, then you have to embrace your role as a then you have to embrace your role as a then you have to embrace your role as a a at least half decent manager. You a at least half decent manager. You a at least half decent manager. You don't need to love being a manager. You don't need to love being a manager. You don't need to love being a manager. You don't need to become the best manager, don't need to become the best manager, don't need to become the best manager, but you have to be skilled as as one.

but you have to be skilled as as one. but you have to be skilled as as one. Is this a little bit and I don't want to Is this a little bit and I don't want to Is this a little bit and I don't want to get too nerdy if people don't know Les's get too nerdy if people don't know Les's get too nerdy if people don't know Les's framework, but a little bit like moving framework, but a little bit like moving framework, but a little bit like moving from fun to whitewater? Little bit like from fun to whitewater? Little bit like from fun to whitewater? Little bit like that where We we can go a step we can go that where We we can go a step we can go that where We we can go a step we can go a step nerdier, actually, and it is a a step nerdier, actually, and it is a a step nerdier, actually, and it is a small w whitewater that happens in fun. small w whitewater that happens in fun. small w whitewater that happens in fun. And so like we just hit like nine levels And so like we just hit like nine levels And so like we just hit like nine levels of inception. This usually happens in of inception. This usually happens in of inception. This usually happens in kind of early mid fun for anyone who kind of early mid fun for anyone who kind of early mid fun for anyone who knows that model. And it's kind of a knows that model. And it's kind of a knows that model. And it's kind of a precursor to the significant challenge precursor to the significant challenge precursor to the significant challenge that's coming in whitewater ahead. So that's coming in whitewater ahead. So that's coming in whitewater ahead. So it's basically just to give people a it's basically just to give people a it's basically just to give people a quick primer on Les's quick primer on Les's quick primer on Les's framework. You sort of start up, there's framework. You sort of start up, there's framework. You sort of start up, there's early struggle, are you going to make it early struggle, are you going to make it early struggle, are you going to make it or not? And then at some point it gets or not? And then at some point it gets or not? And then at some point it gets fun. Your church is growing, you've got fun. Your church is growing, you've got fun. Your church is growing, you've got cash flow, you know, you're not worried cash flow, you know, you're not worried cash flow, you know, you're not worried about closing the doors next Sunday. about closing the doors next Sunday. about closing the doors next Sunday. Your business is great. It might be in Your business is great. It might be in Your business is great. It might be in the low six figures. You're not a the low six figures. You're not a the low six figures. You're not a seven-figure CEO. Or maybe you are. seven-figure CEO. Or maybe you are. seven-figure CEO. Or maybe you are. Maybe you're making a lot of money, but Maybe you're making a lot of money, but Maybe you're making a lot of money, but you're doing it with a small team, and you're doing it with a small team, and you're doing it with a small team, and it just seems fun. It's great. And you it just seems fun. It's great. And you it just seems fun. It's great. And you have a little bit of turbulence here and have a little bit of turbulence here and have a little bit of turbulence here and there, but like it's a cool stage to be there, but like it's a cool stage to be there, but like it's a cool stage to be in, and they often become the good old in, and they often become the good old in, and they often become the good old days.

days. days. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They absolutely do become the good old They absolutely do become the good old They absolutely do become the good old days. And the reason days. And the reason days. And the reason why they become the good old days is why they become the good old days is why they become the good old days is usually when we learn, again, that basic usually when we learn, again, that basic usually when we learn, again, that basic skill set of of leading other people, skill set of of leading other people, skill set of of leading other people, the right people, right? In in Les the right people, right? In in Les the right people, right? In in Les Schwab's framework, they're the Schwab's framework, they're the Schwab's framework, they're the operators, right? We have to learn to operators, right? We have to learn to operators, right? We have to learn to lead operators. Yeah. And when you lead operators. Yeah. And when you lead operators. Yeah. And when you figure that out, when you crack the code figure that out, when you crack the code figure that out, when you crack the code on who actually should be working with on who actually should be working with on who actually should be working with me, and the very few things that they me, and the very few things that they me, and the very few things that they need to succeed, a little bit of need to succeed, a little bit of need to succeed, a little bit of clarity, a lot of autonomy, and a vision clarity, a lot of autonomy, and a vision clarity, a lot of autonomy, and a vision to hold it all together, and boom, to hold it all together, and boom, to hold it all together, and boom, they're off to the races. You can have they're off to the races. You can have they're off to the races. You can have an absolute blast. It's super super an absolute blast. It's super super an absolute blast. It's super super cool. It's a ton of fun. And and and you cool. It's a ton of fun. And and and you cool. It's a ton of fun. And and and you can run in that stage for a while, and can run in that stage for a while, and can run in that stage for a while, and and you move from being that reluctant and you move from being that reluctant and you move from being that reluctant manager to being more, manager to being more, manager to being more, you know, effectively a a simple you know, effectively a a simple you know, effectively a a simple manager, right? It's just a simple manager, right? It's just a simple manager, right? It's just a simple management to give my team the space management to give my team the space management to give my team the space that they need, and it creates a ton of that they need, and it creates a ton of that they need, and it creates a ton of success. success. success. And and you're you're thinking to And and you're you're thinking to And and you're you're thinking to yourself as you're going through this yourself as you're going through this yourself as you're going through this process, yes, right? Like I've finally process, yes, right? Like I've finally process, yes, right? Like I've finally figured it out. I'm not totally figured it out. I'm not totally figured it out. I'm not totally reluctant about all of this. I've reluctant about all of this. I've reluctant about all of this. I've embraced the little bit that I need.

embraced the little bit that I need. embraced the little bit that I need. I've got the right people on the team. I've got the right people on the team. I've got the right people on the team. I'm ready for the next level. Mhm. I'm ready for the next level. Mhm. I'm ready for the next level. Mhm. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. So, So, So, to to describe this next level, I want to to describe this next level, I want to to describe this next level, I want to tell just a quick story. to tell just a quick story. to tell just a quick story. My wife and I, we have three kids. My wife and I, we have three kids. My wife and I, we have three kids. They're 13, 11, and three now. So, about They're 13, 11, and three now. So, about They're 13, 11, and three now. So, about three years old, they were 10, three years old, they were 10, three years old, they were 10, eight, and zero. It was early days of eight, and zero. It was early days of eight, and zero. It was early days of our our youngest our our youngest our our youngest daughter. daughter. daughter. And we were we there were not a whole And we were we there were not a whole And we were we there were not a whole lot of date nights during that season. lot of date nights during that season. lot of date nights during that season. Let's just put it that way. And and so, Let's just put it that way. And and so, Let's just put it that way. And and so, we're like, we've got to we've got to we're like, we've got to we've got to we're like, we've got to we've got to change this, right? And we got a change this, right? And we got a change this, right? And we got a babysitter who could who could handle babysitter who could who could handle babysitter who could who could handle all three of them, which was tough to all three of them, which was tough to all three of them, which was tough to do, but we found someone. And in a the do, but we found someone. And in a the do, but we found someone. And in a the peak height of romantic getaways, we peak height of romantic getaways, we peak height of romantic getaways, we went and did dinner and a movie, right? went and did dinner and a movie, right? went and did dinner and a movie, right? Like I remember those days. That was a Like I remember those days. That was a Like I remember those days. That was a big deal. So, we we eat at some chain big deal. So, we we eat at some chain big deal. So, we we eat at some chain restaurant, and go and watch it was when restaurant, and go and watch it was when restaurant, and go and watch it was when Top Gun Maverick, so the second Top Gun, Top Gun Maverick, so the second Top Gun, Top Gun Maverick, so the second Top Gun, had come out. had come out. had come out. And And And and it's just nice to get away, right? and it's just nice to get away, right? and it's just nice to get away, right? So, we're sitting there, we're watching, So, we're sitting there, we're watching, So, we're sitting there, we're watching, and the movie's kind of rough. Like it's and the movie's kind of rough. Like it's and the movie's kind of rough. Like it's cool. Like there's all the flash backs cool. Like there's all the flash backs cool. Like there's all the flash backs and the music, and like I remember the and the music, and like I remember the and the music, and like I remember the old original Top Gear, and so that was old original Top Gear, and so that was old original Top Gear, and so that was cool, but it's like cool, but it's like cool, but it's like as you watch the movie, just about as you watch the movie, just about as you watch the movie, just about everything that can go wrong for Tom everything that can go wrong for Tom everything that can go wrong for Tom does, you know? Like I I think he wrecks does, you know? Like I I think he wrecks does, you know? Like I I think he wrecks a plane at Mach 10 in the beginning.

a plane at Mach 10 in the beginning. a plane at Mach 10 in the beginning. He he he tries to go for the girl, and He he he tries to go for the girl, and He he he tries to go for the girl, and she rejects him. You know, he's she rejects him. You know, he's she rejects him. You know, he's basically told he's being left behind by basically told he's being left behind by basically told he's being left behind by his employer. his employer. his employer. He's got to confront this lifelong He's got to confront this lifelong He's got to confront this lifelong challenge with, you know, Goose's son. challenge with, you know, Goose's son. challenge with, you know, Goose's son. It's just like everything that can go It's just like everything that can go It's just like everything that can go wrong. And so, so I was feeling a little wrong. And so, so I was feeling a little wrong. And so, so I was feeling a little heavy, actually. You know, I was like, heavy, actually. You know, I was like, heavy, actually. You know, I was like, wow, this is this is tough. wow, this is this is tough. wow, this is this is tough. And then we get the call from the And then we get the call from the And then we get the call from the babysitter with about 20 minutes of the babysitter with about 20 minutes of the babysitter with about 20 minutes of the movie left, and she's like, hey, you movie left, and she's like, hey, you movie left, and she's like, hey, you need to come home. You know, Isabella, need to come home. You know, Isabella, need to come home. You know, Isabella, our daughter, is not sleeping. The boys our daughter, is not sleeping. The boys our daughter, is not sleeping. The boys are fighting downstairs. Like I I are fighting downstairs. Like I I are fighting downstairs. Like I I I've I've I've gave it everything I can. gave it everything I can. gave it everything I can. I'm out of tricks. Yeah, help me out I'm out of tricks. Yeah, help me out I'm out of tricks. Yeah, help me out there. Yeah. And so, everyone was safe there. Yeah. And so, everyone was safe there. Yeah. And so, everyone was safe and and healthy and everything. There and and healthy and everything. There and and healthy and everything. There was no like major issue, but we had to was no like major issue, but we had to was no like major issue, but we had to leave. So, I didn't see the last 20 leave. So, I didn't see the last 20 leave. So, I didn't see the last 20 minutes of Top Gun Maverick for like two minutes of Top Gun Maverick for like two minutes of Top Gun Maverick for like two years. years. years. And if you stop the movie right there, And if you stop the movie right there, And if you stop the movie right there, it's downright depressing, right? All it's downright depressing, right? All it's downright depressing, right? All those things, I think Tom has gotten those things, I think Tom has gotten those things, I think Tom has gotten shot down a couple of times. He's been shot down a couple of times. He's been shot down a couple of times. He's been chased by a helicopter. Like everything chased by a helicopter. Like everything chased by a helicopter. Like everything that can go wrong does go wrong, and that can go wrong does go wrong, and that can go wrong does go wrong, and it's just the the belly of the movie, it's just the the belly of the movie, it's just the the belly of the movie, right? The deepest darkest moment.

right? The deepest darkest moment. right? The deepest darkest moment. And unfortunately, that's what a lot of And unfortunately, that's what a lot of And unfortunately, that's what a lot of founders experience in stage four. founders experience in stage four. founders experience in stage four. And stage four, that comes after the And stage four, that comes after the And stage four, that comes after the reluctant manager, we're expecting to reluctant manager, we're expecting to reluctant manager, we're expecting to climb up and to the right, and our climb up and to the right, and our climb up and to the right, and our business or our our non- our church business or our our non- our church business or our our non- our church does, right? From a metric standpoint, does, right? From a metric standpoint, does, right? From a metric standpoint, it's growing. From the outside looking it's growing. From the outside looking it's growing. From the outside looking in, magazines are writing articles about in, magazines are writing articles about in, magazines are writing articles about you, right? Like the local pastor's you, right? Like the local pastor's you, right? Like the local pastor's jealous of your success. You know, your jealous of your success. You know, your jealous of your success. You know, your your family thinks like you have it all your family thinks like you have it all your family thinks like you have it all together, but you're thinking like, together, but you're thinking like, together, but you're thinking like, is this it? Care like folks are are sitting there, Care like folks are are sitting there, and like they've got everything to some and like they've got everything to some and like they've got everything to some extent. They've got everything that extent. They've got everything that extent. They've got everything that they've asked for, right? they've asked for, right? they've asked for, right? Be careful Be careful about getting Be careful Be careful about getting Be careful Be careful about getting that. At that they've built, that. At that they've built, that. At that they've built, and they realize and they realize and they realize businesses get bigger, they don't get businesses get bigger, they don't get businesses get bigger, they don't get better. better. better. Mhm. Right? And and the same thing is Mhm. Right? And and the same thing is Mhm. Right? And and the same thing is true for nonprofits. true for nonprofits. true for nonprofits. We start reaching these milestones, We start reaching these milestones, We start reaching these milestones, right? I'm going to have 500 members.

right? I'm going to have 500 members. right? I'm going to have 500 members. I'm going to have 5,000 members. I'm I'm going to have 5,000 members. I'm I'm going to have 5,000 members. I'm going to hit $10 million in revenue. I'm going to hit $10 million in revenue. I'm going to hit $10 million in revenue. I'm going to hit a million dollars in going to hit a million dollars in going to hit a million dollars in profit. It It doesn't matter what the profit. It It doesn't matter what the profit. It It doesn't matter what the number is, but we set these kind of number is, but we set these kind of number is, but we set these kind of milestones, and we think to ourself, milestones, and we think to ourself, milestones, and we think to ourself, especially during the hard seasons especially during the hard seasons especially during the hard seasons ahead, when I get there, it's going to ahead, when I get there, it's going to ahead, when I get there, it's going to be okay. Mhm. Right? When I cross that be okay. Mhm. Right? When I cross that be okay. Mhm. Right? When I cross that line, we'll have the resources that we line, we'll have the resources that we line, we'll have the resources that we need. When When when I have this team need. When When when I have this team need. When When when I have this team member, it's going to be all right. Or member, it's going to be all right. Or member, it's going to be all right. Or we we kind of set it up, and we put our we we kind of set it up, and we put our we we kind of set it up, and we put our joy on hold, thinking that it'll be joy on hold, thinking that it'll be joy on hold, thinking that it'll be easier to achieve in some future state, easier to achieve in some future state, easier to achieve in some future state, right? Once we achieve that goal, we'll right? Once we achieve that goal, we'll right? Once we achieve that goal, we'll be okay. be okay. be okay. And systematically, And systematically, And systematically, and invariably, and invariably, and invariably, those illusions of joy the preponderance those illusions of joy the preponderance those illusions of joy the preponderance of joy waiting at some destination start of joy waiting at some destination start of joy waiting at some destination start to get stripped away. to get stripped away. to get stripped away. And and this is why so many founders And and this is why so many founders And and this is why so many founders talk about how it feels so lonely, talk about how it feels so lonely, talk about how it feels so lonely, right? And how it feels so isolating, right? And how it feels so isolating, right? And how it feels so isolating, because because because your team's doing a great job.

your team's doing a great job. your team's doing a great job. The the organization's succeeding in so The the organization's succeeding in so The the organization's succeeding in so many ways. many ways. many ways. Everyone from the outside's looking Everyone from the outside's looking Everyone from the outside's looking thinking like you've got it all thinking like you've got it all thinking like you've got it all together. It's all perfect, and you're together. It's all perfect, and you're together. It's all perfect, and you're just kind of dying inside. Right? Like just kind of dying inside. Right? Like just kind of dying inside. Right? Like this is this is this is I'm I'm spending I wanted to get into I'm I'm spending I wanted to get into I'm I'm spending I wanted to get into this to make coffee, and I'm looking all this to make coffee, and I'm looking all this to make coffee, and I'm looking all day every day at P&Ls and legal day every day at P&Ls and legal day every day at P&Ls and legal statements, and and it's just statements, and and it's just statements, and and it's just we're doing all these things, and none we're doing all these things, and none we're doing all these things, and none of them are checking the box. We're of them are checking the box. We're of them are checking the box. We're achieving these milestones, and they achieving these milestones, and they achieving these milestones, and they don't really seem to matter. don't really seem to matter. don't really seem to matter. Then, you know, then you know, heaven Then, you know, then you know, heaven Then, you know, then you know, heaven forbid, but then some stuff starts to go forbid, but then some stuff starts to go forbid, but then some stuff starts to go wrong, right? This is the white water wrong, right? This is the white water wrong, right? This is the white water kicks in. With the complexity, the kicks in. With the complexity, the kicks in. With the complexity, the organization starts causing people to organization starts causing people to organization starts causing people to have problems. Our leaders aren't have problems. Our leaders aren't have problems. Our leaders aren't keeping up with the pace of growth of keeping up with the pace of growth of keeping up with the pace of growth of the organization. the organization. the organization. We don't have the ability or time in the We don't have the ability or time in the We don't have the ability or time in the day to go and and fight all the fires day to go and and fight all the fires day to go and and fight all the fires anymore. So, not only are we being anymore. So, not only are we being anymore. So, not only are we being disappointed by how it feels to lead disappointed by how it feels to lead disappointed by how it feels to lead this organization, we feel totally out this organization, we feel totally out this organization, we feel totally out of control and unable to keep it going.

of control and unable to keep it going. of control and unable to keep it going. And so, now we're working, you know, And so, now we're working, you know, And so, now we're working, you know, many times as hard to just preserve our many times as hard to just preserve our many times as hard to just preserve our ego and appearance of success as we are ego and appearance of success as we are ego and appearance of success as we are to actually succeed. And if we're to actually succeed. And if we're to actually succeed. And if we're honest, we probably don't even know what honest, we probably don't even know what honest, we probably don't even know what success is, because we thought what we success is, because we thought what we success is, because we thought what we thought it was, what we've achieved, thought it was, what we've achieved, thought it was, what we've achieved, isn't checking the box for us. Mhm. And isn't checking the box for us. Mhm. And isn't checking the box for us. Mhm. And every founder who has enough success every founder who has enough success every founder who has enough success will get to this stage. Every founder will get to this stage. Every founder will get to this stage. Every founder will have to deal with this stage. will have to deal with this stage. will have to deal with this stage. And because it's so hard, and if you And because it's so hard, and if you And because it's so hard, and if you look at the trajectory, right? Stage look at the trajectory, right? Stage look at the trajectory, right? Stage two, and then stage three was like a two, and then stage three was like a two, and then stage three was like a step down in a lot of ways, even though step down in a lot of ways, even though step down in a lot of ways, even though the organization was growing, and step the organization was growing, and step the organization was growing, and step four is another step down. We can start four is another step down. We can start four is another step down. We can start to draw the line through that, right? to draw the line through that, right? to draw the line through that, right? And it's like, if you've never done this And it's like, if you've never done this And it's like, if you've never done this before, you're like, heaven for What is before, you're like, heaven for What is before, you're like, heaven for What is stage five? You know, it's like I I stage five? You know, it's like I I stage five? You know, it's like I I can't take any more of this. can't take any more of this. can't take any more of this. And it's this where business owners will And it's this where business owners will And it's this where business owners will sell, right? Mhm. Or step back, and try sell, right? Mhm. Or step back, and try sell, right? Mhm. Or step back, and try This is where we'll start talking about This is where we'll start talking about This is where we'll start talking about whether founders make great CEOs, or whether founders make great CEOs, or whether founders make great CEOs, or whether I have what it takes to lead my whether I have what it takes to lead my whether I have what it takes to lead my organization.

organization. organization. This is where we'll think about, you This is where we'll think about, you This is where we'll think about, you know, just, hey, I remember those good know, just, hey, I remember those good know, just, hey, I remember those good old days. Let's just go back there when old days. Let's just go back there when old days. Let's just go back there when it was simpler, right? And it was simpler, right? And it was simpler, right? And and and there's actually there's there's and and there's actually there's there's and and there's actually there's there's valid arguments to be made for all of valid arguments to be made for all of valid arguments to be made for all of those things, but they miss the primary those things, but they miss the primary those things, but they miss the primary point. point. point. The primary point is that everything The primary point is that everything The primary point is that everything that you've done through this far, that you've done through this far, that you've done through this far, everything that you've experienced so everything that you've experienced so everything that you've experienced so far, has set the stage for the single far, has set the stage for the single far, has set the stage for the single biggest, most rewarding transformation biggest, most rewarding transformation biggest, most rewarding transformation you can make as a founder. you can make as a founder. you can make as a founder. Right? What we've done, when we make Right? What we've done, when we make Right? What we've done, when we make really big decisions in this stage four, really big decisions in this stage four, really big decisions in this stage four, as a disillusioned leader, it's like Tom as a disillusioned leader, it's like Tom as a disillusioned leader, it's like Tom giving up 20 minutes before the end of giving up 20 minutes before the end of giving up 20 minutes before the end of Top Gun. Yeah. Top Gun. Yeah. Top Gun. Yeah. Right? And he's just one step away from Right? And he's just one step away from Right? And he's just one step away from the victory that makes everything else the victory that makes everything else the victory that makes everything else worth it. worth it. worth it. And and that's really there's some And and that's really there's some And and that's really there's some hyperbole in that. Don't get me wrong. hyperbole in that. Don't get me wrong. hyperbole in that. Don't get me wrong. But But But not much, right? When you make the shift not much, right? When you make the shift not much, right? When you make the shift from stage four, the disillusioned from stage four, the disillusioned from stage four, the disillusioned leader, to what's coming in stage five, leader, to what's coming in stage five, leader, to what's coming in stage five, which I call the chief executive, that which I call the chief executive, that which I call the chief executive, that transformation, that skill set, the way transformation, that skill set, the way transformation, that skill set, the way that that role actually aligns with who that that role actually aligns with who that that role actually aligns with who you are and how you're wired, you are and how you're wired, you are and how you're wired, most folks can only last somewhere most folks can only last somewhere most folks can only last somewhere between three to five, maybe 10 years at between three to five, maybe 10 years at between three to five, maybe 10 years at the most in stages three and four the most in stages three and four the most in stages three and four combined, right? It's just not combined, right? It's just not combined, right? It's just not sustainable Yeah, you're not going to be sustainable Yeah, you're not going to be sustainable Yeah, you're not going to be depressed every day. You're going to get depressed every day. You're going to get depressed every day. You're going to get out.

out. out. You're going to go one way or the other. You're going to go one way or the other. You're going to go one way or the other. You're going to go back, which is You're going to go back, which is You're going to go back, which is wonderful. Lots of people, it's wonderful. Lots of people, it's wonderful. Lots of people, it's absolutely the right answer. Or for absolutely the right answer. Or for absolutely the right answer. Or for some, you're going to go forward. Now, some, you're going to go forward. Now, some, you're going to go forward. Now, once you get to that chief executive once you get to that chief executive once you get to that chief executive role, if you do it right, the folks that role, if you do it right, the folks that role, if you do it right, the folks that I see in that role, they've been doing I see in that role, they've been doing I see in that role, they've been doing it for 15, 20, 25 years, and they're as it for 15, 20, 25 years, and they're as it for 15, 20, 25 years, and they're as alive today as they were 25 years ago. alive today as they were 25 years ago. alive today as they were 25 years ago. Even with that entrepreneurial itch and Even with that entrepreneurial itch and Even with that entrepreneurial itch and wiring and everything, they're doing wiring and everything, they're doing wiring and everything, they're doing great. great. great. with it. Especially with it. Tell me with it. Especially with it. Tell me with it. Especially with it. Tell me more. We have a lot of false ideas on more. We have a lot of false ideas on more. We have a lot of false ideas on what being a CEO is, right? We we think what being a CEO is, right? We we think what being a CEO is, right? We we think that it's this kind of stuffy suit and that it's this kind of stuffy suit and that it's this kind of stuffy suit and tie, like they've got to keep all the tie, like they've got to keep all the tie, like they've got to keep all the trains. Yeah. trains. Yeah. trains. Yeah. And and there's a there's an element of And and there's a there's an element of And and there's a there's an element of that. There's some that you have to do that. There's some that you have to do that. There's some that you have to do that, but that's not really what it is. that, but that's not really what it is. that, but that's not really what it is. There are two things that a CEO does. There are two things that a CEO does. There are two things that a CEO does. The first one is cast a compelling The first one is cast a compelling The first one is cast a compelling vision for your team. vision for your team. vision for your team. Right? That's what a CEO does. And tell Right? That's what a CEO does. And tell Right? That's what a CEO does. And tell me give me a visionary who doesn't want me give me a visionary who doesn't want me give me a visionary who doesn't want to do that, right? to do that, right? to do that, right? So, that's the first one and that's why So, that's the first one and that's why So, that's the first one and that's why I found most founders are actually I found most founders are actually I found most founders are actually phenomenal CEOs once they know how to do phenomenal CEOs once they know how to do phenomenal CEOs once they know how to do it right because the primary requisite it right because the primary requisite it right because the primary requisite is do you have a compelling vision for is do you have a compelling vision for is do you have a compelling vision for the future of your organization?

the future of your organization? the future of your organization? If you don't, then yes, you need to find If you don't, then yes, you need to find If you don't, then yes, you need to find another CEO. But if you do, you might another CEO. But if you do, you might another CEO. But if you do, you might just have what it takes to make it just have what it takes to make it just have what it takes to make it happen. Second, happen. Second, happen. Second, you have to you have to you have to turn that vision into clarity for your turn that vision into clarity for your turn that vision into clarity for your team to execute. team to execute. team to execute. Right. Right. Right. Right? So, you have to be able to to sit Right? So, you have to be able to to sit Right? So, you have to be able to to sit with them and map those two things with them and map those two things with them and map those two things together. together. together. And the third thing is you have to And the third thing is you have to And the third thing is you have to secure the resources that are necessary secure the resources that are necessary secure the resources that are necessary for them to fulfill that. for them to fulfill that. for them to fulfill that. That's really what it boils down to. That's really what it boils down to. That's really what it boils down to. Anything else is a stylistic decision. Anything else is a stylistic decision. Anything else is a stylistic decision. Do you want to stay on the platform and Do you want to stay on the platform and Do you want to stay on the platform and keep preaching? Great, go for it, right? keep preaching? Great, go for it, right? keep preaching? Great, go for it, right? Do you want to just be responsible for Do you want to just be responsible for Do you want to just be responsible for um you know, content creation and um you know, content creation and um you know, content creation and writing books or big ideas or you know, writing books or big ideas or you know, writing books or big ideas or you know, special projects? Great, go for it. You special projects? Great, go for it. You special projects? Great, go for it. You there's there's there's there's there's there's wide wide boundaries on what a CEO can wide wide boundaries on what a CEO can wide wide boundaries on what a CEO can do to help move their organization do to help move their organization do to help move their organization forward so long as they keep first thing forward so long as they keep first thing forward so long as they keep first thing first, which is do you have a compelling first, which is do you have a compelling first, which is do you have a compelling vision for the future? Are you helping vision for the future? Are you helping vision for the future? Are you helping your team map that to clarity for your team map that to clarity for your team map that to clarity for execution? And have you given them the execution? And have you given them the execution? And have you given them the resources that they need to do that?

resources that they need to do that? resources that they need to do that? That's what a great CEO does. That's what a great CEO does. That's what a great CEO does. So, in in many ways, I don't want to So, in in many ways, I don't want to So, in in many ways, I don't want to read too far into it in case I've got it read too far into it in case I've got it read too far into it in case I've got it wrong, but you kind of get to choose, wrong, but you kind of get to choose, wrong, but you kind of get to choose, right? Like if you've if you've handled right? Like if you've if you've handled right? Like if you've if you've handled those other things, it's like actually I those other things, it's like actually I those other things, it's like actually I do want to write a book or I want to be do want to write a book or I want to be do want to write a book or I want to be teaching and contributing regularly or I teaching and contributing regularly or I teaching and contributing regularly or I want to be in these meetings, not those. want to be in these meetings, not those. want to be in these meetings, not those. Uh Uh Uh that kind of thing. that kind of thing. that kind of thing. I will say and I'll agree with Les on I will say and I'll agree with Les on I will say and I'll agree with Les on this that leading in predictable this that leading in predictable this that leading in predictable success, which is where you're going to success, which is where you're going to success, which is where you're going to get to by doing this, is a full-time get to by doing this, is a full-time get to by doing this, is a full-time job, right? So, it is it it I'm not this job, right? So, it is it it I'm not this job, right? So, it is it it I'm not this is not like oh, I'll see you guys in 9 is not like oh, I'll see you guys in 9 is not like oh, I'll see you guys in 9 months kind of it that's not what I'm months kind of it that's not what I'm months kind of it that's not what I'm talking about. We're not there yet. We talking about. We're not there yet. We talking about. We're not there yet. We haven't figured that out. You wouldn't haven't figured that out. You wouldn't haven't figured that out. You wouldn't hire a CEO and then let them do that, hire a CEO and then let them do that, hire a CEO and then let them do that, right? right? right? No. No. No. So, it is a full-time job, but you have So, it is a full-time job, but you have So, it is a full-time job, but you have very wide boundaries on how you define very wide boundaries on how you define very wide boundaries on how you define that job and it can be very that job and it can be very that job and it can be very individualized for the founder. And the individualized for the founder. And the individualized for the founder. And the things that you do that actually make things that you do that actually make things that you do that actually make the biggest impact most founders are the biggest impact most founders are the biggest impact most founders are wired for, right? It it's a it's a great wired for, right? It it's a it's a great wired for, right? It it's a it's a great fit. fit. fit. And there's some boundaries that come And there's some boundaries that come And there's some boundaries that come with this, right? We have to be skillful with this, right? We have to be skillful with this, right? We have to be skillful in it to one of the resources you have in it to one of the resources you have in it to one of the resources you have to give your team is autonomy, to give your team is autonomy, to give your team is autonomy, right? In decision-making.

right? In decision-making. right? In decision-making. Uh and and so it it costs you something. Uh and and so it it costs you something. Uh and and so it it costs you something. I mean, don't get me wrong. Like you you I mean, don't get me wrong. Like you you I mean, don't get me wrong. Like you you have to give up control in a significant have to give up control in a significant have to give up control in a significant way. way. way. lonely, even lonelier because you're not lonely, even lonelier because you're not lonely, even lonelier because you're not in on the ground floor every decision in on the ground floor every decision in on the ground floor every decision because the team is making decisions because the team is making decisions because the team is making decisions without you. And sometimes you look without you. And sometimes you look without you. And sometimes you look around and go, well, that's not how I around and go, well, that's not how I around and go, well, that's not how I would do it a lot of the time, right? would do it a lot of the time, right? would do it a lot of the time, right? So lonely. So lonely. So lonely. That the defining question of the stage, That the defining question of the stage, That the defining question of the stage, and this shocks people who haven't been and this shocks people who haven't been and this shocks people who haven't been there before, but every person I've told there before, but every person I've told there before, but every person I've told who's been in stage five says, yes. who's been in stage five says, yes. who's been in stage five says, yes. Is Is Is who am I? Can relate. Yeah, I think I've been Can relate. Yeah, I think I've been there. there. there. Right? Yeah, like who am I? If I'm not Right? Yeah, like who am I? If I'm not Right? Yeah, like who am I? If I'm not the guy who saves the day all the time, the guy who saves the day all the time, the guy who saves the day all the time, right? If I'm not uh the face of every right? If I'm not uh the face of every right? If I'm not uh the face of every new thing that we're doing at our new thing that we're doing at our new thing that we're doing at our church. If I'm not fill in the blank, church. If I'm not fill in the blank, church. If I'm not fill in the blank, right? right? right? If if I'm not the one who has all the If if I'm not the one who has all the If if I'm not the one who has all the ideas on how to solve our biggest ideas on how to solve our biggest ideas on how to solve our biggest problems, problems, problems, what value do I bring?

what value do I bring? what value do I bring? Right? If I'm not my organization that Right? If I'm not my organization that Right? If I'm not my organization that I've built blood, sweat, and tears for I've built blood, sweat, and tears for I've built blood, sweat, and tears for the last 15, 20 years, who am I? the last 15, 20 years, who am I? the last 15, 20 years, who am I? Or or to put it theologically, if I'm Or or to put it theologically, if I'm Or or to put it theologically, if I'm not the savior, who is? Oh, wait a not the savior, who is? Oh, wait a not the savior, who is? Oh, wait a minute. I think we know who the savior minute. I think we know who the savior minute. I think we know who the savior is, but there is that Messiah complex, is, but there is that Messiah complex, is, but there is that Messiah complex, that rescuer, you know, somebody told me that rescuer, you know, somebody told me that rescuer, you know, somebody told me along the journey uh if you're always along the journey uh if you're always along the journey uh if you're always fighting fires, be careful, you could be fighting fires, be careful, you could be fighting fires, be careful, you could be the arsonist. You know, there's there's the arsonist. You know, there's there's the arsonist. You know, there's there's a really good point and I've seen a really good point and I've seen a really good point and I've seen leaders do that, too. But it does I leaders do that, too. But it does I leaders do that, too. But it does I mean, I don't I don't want to pretend mean, I don't I don't want to pretend mean, I don't I don't want to pretend that I've arrived or anything as a that I've arrived or anything as a that I've arrived or anything as a leader, but if you're really operating leader, but if you're really operating leader, but if you're really operating in your gift set, if you're really in your gift set, if you're really in your gift set, if you're really casting vision, aligning the team, casting vision, aligning the team, casting vision, aligning the team, it does get very lonely. I was it does get very lonely. I was it does get very lonely. I was explaining this to some leaders on a explaining this to some leaders on a explaining this to some leaders on a coaching call recently and I remember coaching call recently and I remember coaching call recently and I remember when we got there as a church or what I when we got there as a church or what I when we got there as a church or what I assume was probably stage five or assume was probably stage five or assume was probably stage five or predictable success, predictable success, predictable success, if you line those up, and people would if you line those up, and people would if you line those up, and people would say, oh listen, you know, I can't talk say, oh listen, you know, I can't talk say, oh listen, you know, I can't talk to you, you're so busy or I won't email to you, you're so busy or I won't email to you, you're so busy or I won't email you, you're so busy. And inside I'm you, you're so busy. And inside I'm you, you're so busy. And inside I'm like, actually not that busy. Like, you like, actually not that busy. Like, you like, actually not that busy. Like, you know, it's not Yeah, I'm preaching, I'm know, it's not Yeah, I'm preaching, I'm know, it's not Yeah, I'm preaching, I'm doing this stuff, but like the team's doing this stuff, but like the team's doing this stuff, but like the team's doing what they're supposed to do. It's doing what they're supposed to do. It's doing what they're supposed to do. It's that weird cognitive dissonance because that weird cognitive dissonance because that weird cognitive dissonance because you're so used to being needed.

you're so used to being needed. you're so used to being needed. And even now, you're the last interview And even now, you're the last interview And even now, you're the last interview I do, I'm taking a month off. I do, I'm taking a month off. I do, I'm taking a month off. I doubt very much there's going to be I doubt very much there's going to be I doubt very much there's going to be one issue I have to deal with in those one issue I have to deal with in those one issue I have to deal with in those 30 days that my team can't handle. And 30 days that my team can't handle. And 30 days that my team can't handle. And that's wonderful and it's freaky at the that's wonderful and it's freaky at the that's wonderful and it's freaky at the same time. It's crazy. And and here's same time. It's crazy. And and here's same time. It's crazy. And and here's the real test of that. the real test of that. the real test of that. Can you still do that when things are Can you still do that when things are Can you still do that when things are going wrong? going wrong? going wrong? Mhm. Right? That's the that's where it Mhm. Right? That's the that's where it Mhm. Right? That's the that's where it gets really tough. gets really tough. gets really tough. question. question. question. Can't you know, we're we're happy to Can't you know, we're we're happy to Can't you know, we're we're happy to give autonomy when things are going give autonomy when things are going give autonomy when things are going well, when they're making decisions well, when they're making decisions well, when they're making decisions close enough to what we would, when close enough to what we would, when close enough to what we would, when we're winning or they make decisions and we're winning or they make decisions and we're winning or they make decisions and it works out. But are you willing to it works out. But are you willing to it works out. But are you willing to give them the autonomy to to mess up, give them the autonomy to to mess up, give them the autonomy to to mess up, right? Had someone on my podcast and and right? Had someone on my podcast and and right? Had someone on my podcast and and she said something phenomenal. She said, she said something phenomenal. She said, she said something phenomenal. She said, sometimes you have to be willing to sometimes you have to be willing to sometimes you have to be willing to sacrifice a client for the sake of a sacrifice a client for the sake of a sacrifice a client for the sake of a leader. leader. leader. Right? Sometimes you will lose big Right? Sometimes you will lose big Right? Sometimes you will lose big material projects on your opportunities, material projects on your opportunities, material projects on your opportunities, fill in the blank because you have given fill in the blank because you have given fill in the blank because you have given your team enough space to mess up. your team enough space to mess up. your team enough space to mess up. Here's here's a See, if someone's around Here's here's a See, if someone's around Here's here's a See, if someone's around this and they're like, how well am I this and they're like, how well am I this and they're like, how well am I doing? Here's a doing? Here's a doing? Here's a a rule of thumb that I like to use and a rule of thumb that I like to use and a rule of thumb that I like to use and that is that as CEO, you do not make that is that as CEO, you do not make that is that as CEO, you do not make policy decisions, policy decisions, policy decisions, you make people decisions.

Right? You limit your ability to jump in Right? You limit your ability to jump in and save the day to I'm your my job is and save the day to I'm your my job is and save the day to I'm your my job is to make sure that I have the right to make sure that I have the right to make sure that I have the right people on my team and I'm holding my people on my team and I'm holding my people on my team and I'm holding my people accountable and I'm developing people accountable and I'm developing people accountable and I'm developing people for my team, right? You make people for my team, right? You make people for my team, right? You make people decisions, not policy decisions. people decisions, not policy decisions. people decisions, not policy decisions. And that's really tough for a founder And that's really tough for a founder And that's really tough for a founder who succeeded by making policy who succeeded by making policy who succeeded by making policy decisions, right? By by by making the decisions, right? By by by making the decisions, right? By by by making the call. It's a new skill set, but it's an call. It's a new skill set, but it's an call. It's a new skill set, but it's an a phenomenal rewarding skill set. a phenomenal rewarding skill set. a phenomenal rewarding skill set. Yeah, it's funny. Uh I mean, this will Yeah, it's funny. Uh I mean, this will Yeah, it's funny. Uh I mean, this will be out at some point this fall, but I'm be out at some point this fall, but I'm be out at some point this fall, but I'm sitting down with Jim Collins soon and sitting down with Jim Collins soon and sitting down with Jim Collins soon and that's one of the questions I want to that's one of the questions I want to that's one of the questions I want to ask him. You know, he's beaten the drum ask him. You know, he's beaten the drum ask him. You know, he's beaten the drum over and over again about the right over and over again about the right over and over again about the right people on the bus. people on the bus. people on the bus. And I guess somewhere between stage two And I guess somewhere between stage two And I guess somewhere between stage two and five, and five, and five, we've now got the right leaders in the we've now got the right leaders in the we've now got the right leaders in the right seats, right? Like we've got A right seats, right? Like we've got A right seats, right? Like we've got A players in the senior roles. Is that players in the senior roles. Is that players in the senior roles. Is that sort of sort of sort of tantamount Is that Is that a tantamount Is that Is that a tantamount Is that Is that a prerequisite to being in stage five? prerequisite to being in stage five? prerequisite to being in stage five? Yeah, it's a huge part of it. So, it's Yeah, it's a huge part of it. So, it's Yeah, it's a huge part of it. So, it's actually a huge part of progression actually a huge part of progression actually a huge part of progression through every stage, right? So, each of through every stage, right? So, each of through every stage, right? So, each of the stages, who the right people are to the stages, who the right people are to the stages, who the right people are to help you lead the organization is help you lead the organization is help you lead the organization is different at each of these stages. So, different at each of these stages. So, different at each of these stages. So, to get through stage three, you need a to get through stage three, you need a to get through stage three, you need a right-hand man or woman, right? You you right-hand man or woman, right? You you right-hand man or woman, right? You you need that kind of visionary operator need that kind of visionary operator need that kind of visionary operator combination to use Les's language or combination to use Les's language or combination to use Les's language or that number one, number two combination that number one, number two combination that number one, number two combination to really succeed in stage three. Uh to really succeed in stage three. Uh to really succeed in stage three. Uh that that structure of two people that that structure of two people that that structure of two people leading the whole thing starts to

leading the whole thing starts to leading the whole thing starts to bottleneck and and slow down. So, in a team full of people now. And that's a a team full of people now. And that's a big part of the challenge there. Now, big part of the challenge there. Now, big part of the challenge there. Now, once you step from stage four to stage once you step from stage four to stage once you step from stage four to stage five, one of the hardest parts about five, one of the hardest parts about five, one of the hardest parts about that is moving from the leadership team that is moving from the leadership team that is moving from the leadership team that was helpful in stage four, exactly that was helpful in stage four, exactly that was helpful in stage four, exactly what you needed, to the executive team what you needed, to the executive team what you needed, to the executive team that can make the policy decisions that can make the policy decisions that can make the policy decisions without you. Right? Absolutely. Right? Absolutely. going to move out of making policy going to move out of making policy going to move out of making policy decisions, you need to move away from decisions, you need to move away from decisions, you need to move away from the leadership team who did what you the leadership team who did what you the leadership team who did what you decided to the executive team who decided to the executive team who decided to the executive team who decides how to execute on the clarity decides how to execute on the clarity decides how to execute on the clarity that you provided. that you provided. that you provided. So, quality team-based decision-making. So, quality team-based decision-making. So, quality team-based decision-making. 100%. Okay, great. So, that's stage 100%. Okay, great. So, that's stage 100%. Okay, great. So, that's stage five. What happens next? Here's the five. What happens next? Here's the five. What happens next? Here's the really cool part about stage five. If we really cool part about stage five. If we really cool part about stage five. If we just stopped there, it'd be pretty just stopped there, it'd be pretty just stopped there, it'd be pretty awesome, but what stage five does is it awesome, but what stage five does is it awesome, but what stage five does is it totally flips the script on should the totally flips the script on should the totally flips the script on should the founder be the CEO or not to what does a founder be the CEO or not to what does a founder be the CEO or not to what does a great CEO have to do to lead this great CEO have to do to lead this great CEO have to do to lead this organization.

organization. organization. Right? Because you have you've answered Right? Because you have you've answered Right? Because you have you've answered the question, who am I, right? You have the question, who am I, right? You have the question, who am I, right? You have separated yourself from the separated yourself from the separated yourself from the organization, so you're not leading as organization, so you're not leading as organization, so you're not leading as founder anymore, you're leading as CEO. founder anymore, you're leading as CEO. founder anymore, you're leading as CEO. Well, what do you think the success rate Well, what do you think the success rate Well, what do you think the success rate is of hiring a CEO if you never knew how is of hiring a CEO if you never knew how is of hiring a CEO if you never knew how to be a CEO in the first place? to be a CEO in the first place? to be a CEO in the first place? Yeah, pretty low. It's not good, right? Yeah, pretty low. It's not good, right? Yeah, pretty low. It's not good, right? It's it's it's very bad, actually. What It's it's it's very bad, actually. What It's it's it's very bad, actually. What do you think the success rate is of if do you think the success rate is of if do you think the success rate is of if you have stepped into the CEO seat, you have stepped into the CEO seat, you have stepped into the CEO seat, you've proven it out over, you know, you've proven it out over, you know, you've proven it out over, you know, three, four, five, 10, 15 years, and three, four, five, 10, 15 years, and three, four, five, 10, 15 years, and you've built a team around that CEO seat you've built a team around that CEO seat you've built a team around that CEO seat that can execute well, what do you think that can execute well, what do you think that can execute well, what do you think the success rate is of finding a new CEO the success rate is of finding a new CEO the success rate is of finding a new CEO to take over after you, then to take over after you, then to take over after you, then I would say it's significantly higher. I would say it's significantly higher. I would say it's significantly higher. Significantly higher. Now, we can still Significantly higher. Now, we can still Significantly higher. Now, we can still screw it up. It's not It's not a panacea screw it up. It's not It's not a panacea screw it up. It's not It's not a panacea as long as you're doing as long as you're doing as long as you're doing of bad CEOs that have come into great of bad CEOs that have come into great of bad CEOs that have come into great companies and kind of like, companies and kind of like, companies and kind of like, you know, you know, you know, Now, here's So, what stage five does is Now, here's So, what stage five does is Now, here's So, what stage five does is it sets us up to have the the highest it sets us up to have the the highest it sets us up to have the the highest likelihood of success stepping into likelihood of success stepping into likelihood of success stepping into stage six, which I call the true owner, stage six, which I call the true owner, stage six, which I call the true owner, right?

right? right? Now, again, this is where nonprofit Now, again, this is where nonprofit Now, again, this is where nonprofit language is a little bit different and language is a little bit different and language is a little bit different and stage six and seven kind of blend in the stage six and seven kind of blend in the stage six and seven kind of blend in the nonprofit space, but let's just for the nonprofit space, but let's just for the nonprofit space, but let's just for the sake of language and clarity, we'll use sake of language and clarity, we'll use sake of language and clarity, we'll use the business one and we can come back to the business one and we can come back to the business one and we can come back to the the nonprofit one in a moment. You the the nonprofit one in a moment. You the the nonprofit one in a moment. You step into the true owner where you own step into the true owner where you own step into the true owner where you own and not run the organization. That means and not run the organization. That means and not run the organization. That means that you've got to get another CEO to that you've got to get another CEO to that you've got to get another CEO to run the organization for you, right? run the organization for you, right? run the organization for you, right? Now, Now, Now, like I said, that just because you're like I said, that just because you're like I said, that just because you're CEO and just because you know what that CEO and just because you know what that CEO and just because you know what that role is, doesn't mean that you have a role is, doesn't mean that you have a role is, doesn't mean that you have a guarantee of success stepping into stage guarantee of success stepping into stage guarantee of success stepping into stage six. There's one massive, massive six. There's one massive, massive six. There's one massive, massive mistake that I would still say many, mistake that I would still say many, mistake that I would still say many, many folks make and that is that they many folks make and that is that they many folks make and that is that they don't hire another CEO. They hire don't hire another CEO. They hire don't hire another CEO. They hire another COO, right? Or they promote another COO, right? Or they promote another COO, right? Or they promote their COO. And it might not be COO, it their COO. And it might not be COO, it their COO. And it might not be COO, it might be, you know, associate pastor. It might be, you know, associate pastor. It might be, you know, associate pastor. It doesn't matter what the title is. doesn't matter what the title is. doesn't matter what the title is. Yeah, the XP becomes the senior Yeah, the XP becomes the senior Yeah, the XP becomes the senior something like that. Here's what they something like that. Here's what they something like that. Here's what they Here's the mistake that we make. The Here's the mistake that we make. The Here's the mistake that we make. The secret to succession is that you have to secret to succession is that you have to secret to succession is that you have to You're not trying to find a successor to You're not trying to find a successor to You're not trying to find a successor to pursue your vision for your pursue your vision for your pursue your vision for your organization.

organization. organization. You're trying to find a successor you You're trying to find a successor you You're trying to find a successor you trust to birth the new vision for the trust to birth the new vision for the trust to birth the new vision for the future of your organization. Right? And that's where we tend to fall Right? And that's where we tend to fall short. short. short. 10 years beyond me? Yes, and that's 10 years beyond me? Yes, and that's 10 years beyond me? Yes, and that's where we really start thinking about where we really start thinking about where we really start thinking about legacy and that's where we really start legacy and that's where we really start legacy and that's where we really start thinking about succession and that's thinking about succession and that's thinking about succession and that's when we we really start to to build not when we we really start to to build not when we we really start to to build not only an organization that can thrive, only an organization that can thrive, only an organization that can thrive, but a vision that can thrive for years but a vision that can thrive for years but a vision that can thrive for years to come. to come. to come. Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. And uh and and Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. And uh and and Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. And uh and and what that does It does a couple of what that does It does a couple of what that does It does a couple of things. One, it's the highest likelihood things. One, it's the highest likelihood things. One, it's the highest likelihood of long-term success for the of long-term success for the of long-term success for the organization you built, right? If you If organization you built, right? If you If organization you built, right? If you If you care deeply, which vast majority of you care deeply, which vast majority of you care deeply, which vast majority of founders do, if you care deeply about founders do, if you care deeply about founders do, if you care deeply about its success after you are gone, its success after you are gone, its success after you are gone, this is the highest likelihood of this is the highest likelihood of this is the highest likelihood of success you can create for it, right? success you can create for it, right? success you can create for it, right? Where it has a vibrant, life-giving Where it has a vibrant, life-giving Where it has a vibrant, life-giving visionary at the helm leading an awesome visionary at the helm leading an awesome visionary at the helm leading an awesome team of executives and the sky's the team of executives and the sky's the team of executives and the sky's the limit, right? It's It's It's beautiful.

limit, right? It's It's It's beautiful. limit, right? It's It's It's beautiful. But it it kind of leaves us with a But it it kind of leaves us with a But it it kind of leaves us with a question, well, now what do I do? You question, well, now what do I do? You question, well, now what do I do? You know, like know, like know, like I've handed this thing off, what do I I've handed this thing off, what do I I've handed this thing off, what do I do? And the second big way that that do? And the second big way that that do? And the second big way that that founders mess this up is that they don't founders mess this up is that they don't founders mess this up is that they don't move to something else. move to something else. move to something else. All they do is try and graduate from All they do is try and graduate from All they do is try and graduate from their organization, but they don't have their organization, but they don't have their organization, but they don't have their own vision for what's next in their own vision for what's next in their own vision for what's next in their life. their life. their life. This is such a trap for pastors and This is such a trap for pastors and This is such a trap for pastors and we're living this out in real time every we're living this out in real time every we're living this out in real time every day. I talk to so many successors who's day. I talk to so many successors who's day. I talk to so many successors who's like, my founder's still around, the like, my founder's still around, the like, my founder's still around, the long-term pastor's still around long-term pastor's still around long-term pastor's still around meddling, causing problems, quiet meddling, causing problems, quiet meddling, causing problems, quiet criticism, criticism, criticism, etc., etc. Do you want to say more about etc., etc. Do you want to say more about etc., etc. Do you want to say more about that cuz I think this is huge. It's not that cuz I think this is huge. It's not that cuz I think this is huge. It's not just walking away from something, it's just walking away from something, it's just walking away from something, it's walking into something. It is a walking into something. It is a walking into something. It is a prerequisite, right? And and there's a prerequisite, right? And and there's a prerequisite, right? And and there's a lot of moving factors on this, lot of moving factors on this, lot of moving factors on this, age and health and the organizations. age and health and the organizations. age and health and the organizations. So, I I don't for a moment think that So, I I don't for a moment think that So, I I don't for a moment think that this is a simple thing. I'm not trying this is a simple thing. I'm not trying this is a simple thing. I'm not trying to simplify what is a a really profound to simplify what is a a really profound to simplify what is a a really profound transition.

transition. transition. But what I can say is as the the founding pastor, we'll use it as the the founding pastor, we'll use it that way, as the one who is stepping out that way, as the one who is stepping out that way, as the one who is stepping out of the organization, you have to ask of the organization, you have to ask of the organization, you have to ask yourself a couple of questions and yourself a couple of questions and yourself a couple of questions and really, really commit to them. really, really commit to them. really, really commit to them. And and I would go so far as to say And and I would go so far as to say And and I would go so far as to say there's not a right answer to this, there's not a right answer to this, there's not a right answer to this, right? But there's a wrong right? But there's a wrong right? But there's a wrong implementation of it. So, the first implementation of it. So, the first implementation of it. So, the first question is, what do you want the question is, what do you want the question is, what do you want the organization to be after you're gone? Right? Make it 50 years after you're Right? Make it 50 years after you're gone. They don't You know, gone. They don't You know, gone. They don't You know, what do you want it to be? Really, what do you want it to be? Really, what do you want it to be? Really, honestly, genuinely, what do you want it honestly, genuinely, what do you want it honestly, genuinely, what do you want it to be? to be? to be? And And And the the requirement there to answer that the the requirement there to answer that the the requirement there to answer that question properly is that you are gone. question properly is that you are gone. question properly is that you are gone. Right? So, it forces you to imagine what Right? So, it forces you to imagine what Right? So, it forces you to imagine what that will look like without you. that will look like without you. that will look like without you. Right? And and I would highly recommend Right? And and I would highly recommend Right? And and I would highly recommend that you don't do this alone, right? that you don't do this alone, right? that you don't do this alone, right? Find somebody else that you trust, Find somebody else that you trust, Find somebody else that you trust, someone who does this on a regular someone who does this on a regular someone who does this on a regular basis. There are people that's their basis. There are people that's their basis. There are people that's their entire profession. It's a big part of entire profession. It's a big part of entire profession. It's a big part of what we do at Scale Architects, but find what we do at Scale Architects, but find what we do at Scale Architects, but find someone who you can trust to help you someone who you can trust to help you someone who you can trust to help you flesh that out. And and here's that Why flesh that out. And and here's that Why flesh that out. And and here's that Why isn't it your job as the founder?

isn't it your job as the founder? isn't it your job as the founder? Um Um Um it's not. It's not your job as the it's not. It's not your job as the it's not. It's not your job as the founder. It's because you won't let go if you It's because you won't let go if you don't know what you want. Fair. Does don't know what you want. Fair. Does don't know what you want. Fair. Does that make sense? that make sense? that make sense? Oh, so this is a vision for your life in Oh, so this is a vision for your life in Oh, so this is a vision for your life in the next the next the next it's both, right? You have to So, you it's both, right? You have to So, you it's both, right? You have to So, you have to say, hey, I want this have to say, hey, I want this have to say, hey, I want this organization to be thriving 50 years organization to be thriving 50 years organization to be thriving 50 years from when I'm gone. And they can't do it from when I'm gone. And they can't do it from when I'm gone. And they can't do it from a conversation I had with them 50 from a conversation I had with them 50 from a conversation I had with them 50 years ago. That's what it's going to years ago. That's what it's going to years ago. That's what it's going to take you to, right? So, there has to be take you to, right? So, there has to be take you to, right? So, there has to be another way for them to thrive another way for them to thrive another way for them to thrive and and what is that? What's it going to and and what is that? What's it going to and and what is that? What's it going to be? What do I When I'm looking for the be? What do I When I'm looking for the be? What do I When I'm looking for the person who's going to take over, what person who's going to take over, what person who's going to take over, what are the requisite traits that they need are the requisite traits that they need are the requisite traits that they need to have because they're going to have to to have because they're going to have to to have because they're going to have to set a vision cuz it can't just be me. set a vision cuz it can't just be me. set a vision cuz it can't just be me. Got it. So, it has to be the founder Got it. So, it has to be the founder Got it. So, it has to be the founder because otherwise, if it's just the because otherwise, if it's just the because otherwise, if it's just the successor, now you have a competi- you successor, now you have a competi- you successor, now you have a competi- you have two competing visions. Right? And so, you have to decide, hey, Right? And so, you have to decide, hey, I want this thing to thrive and flourish I want this thing to thrive and flourish I want this thing to thrive and flourish long after I'm gone and to do that, it long after I'm gone and to do that, it long after I'm gone and to do that, it needs vision and it's going to need needs vision and it's going to need needs vision and it's going to need another visionary who can do that.

another visionary who can do that. another visionary who can do that. Right. Take time with that decision. Right. Take time with that decision. Right. Take time with that decision. Don't rush it, right? There's this Don't rush it, right? There's this Don't rush it, right? There's this pressure like, oh, we have to do it. It pressure like, oh, we have to do it. It pressure like, oh, we have to do it. It has to be has to be has to be 30 minutes and I've made the decision. 30 minutes and I've made the decision. 30 minutes and I've made the decision. Don't do that to yourself, right? Like Don't do that to yourself, right? Like Don't do that to yourself, right? Like this is this is a part of why it's great this is this is a part of why it's great this is this is a part of why it's great that being CEO is such a sustainable that being CEO is such a sustainable that being CEO is such a sustainable role cuz you need that time to answer role cuz you need that time to answer role cuz you need that time to answer some of these questions. some of these questions. some of these questions. So, So, So, what I'm really trying to get at is not what I'm really trying to get at is not what I'm really trying to get at is not necessarily what the vision is for the necessarily what the vision is for the necessarily what the vision is for the organization, but what do you want for organization, but what do you want for organization, but what do you want for it, right? it, right? it, right? You can do this for your kids, right? I You can do this for your kids, right? I You can do this for your kids, right? I I don't want my kid to be me. I don't I don't want my kid to be me. I don't I don't want my kid to be me. I don't want them to have all my vision for want them to have all my vision for want them to have all my vision for their life. My vision for them is to their life. My vision for them is to their life. My vision for them is to flourish in their vision for their life. flourish in their vision for their life. flourish in their vision for their life. Okay. So, that's clear. Yeah. Anything Okay. So, that's clear. Yeah. Anything Okay. So, that's clear. Yeah. Anything else in stage six? So, that's that's else in stage six? So, that's that's else in stage six? So, that's that's what we're looking for. The second one what we're looking for. The second one what we're looking for. The second one is is is to do that well in organization, this is to do that well in organization, this is to do that well in organization, this is different from, you know, father to different from, you know, father to different from, you know, father to child, but is that you also have to have child, but is that you also have to have child, but is that you also have to have a vision for what's next for you. What a vision for what's next for you. What a vision for what's next for you. What are you going to sink your teeth into?

are you going to sink your teeth into? are you going to sink your teeth into? Visionaries need something to go after. Visionaries need something to go after. Visionaries need something to go after. Not necessarily a goal, that's a little Not necessarily a goal, that's a little Not necessarily a goal, that's a little different, but a vision of accomplishing different, but a vision of accomplishing different, but a vision of accomplishing something. something. something. It may be writing the book you've always It may be writing the book you've always It may be writing the book you've always wanted to write. It may be starting wanted to write. It may be starting wanted to write. It may be starting another organization. It might be another organization. It might be another organization. It might be actually focusing on your family, right? actually focusing on your family, right? actually focusing on your family, right? And and loving your grandkids to pieces, And and loving your grandkids to pieces, And and loving your grandkids to pieces, right? It It It It It doesn't matter right? It It It It It doesn't matter right? It It It It It doesn't matter what it is, it just matters that it what it is, it just matters that it what it is, it just matters that it lights your candle. Right? It It has to lights your candle. Right? It It has to lights your candle. Right? It It has to fire you up because visionaries will fire you up because visionaries will fire you up because visionaries will always move toward a vision of always move toward a vision of always move toward a vision of something. And so, if you never create something. And so, if you never create something. And so, if you never create that and you just go from the that and you just go from the that and you just go from the organization that you started and you organization that you started and you organization that you started and you still have a still have a still have a you're just going to go back to that. you're just going to go back to that. you're just going to go back to that. It's like a a fly to the blue light, you It's like a a fly to the blue light, you It's like a a fly to the blue light, you know what I mean? It's just It's going know what I mean? It's just It's going know what I mean? It's just It's going to keep sucking you back and in doing to keep sucking you back and in doing to keep sucking you back and in doing so, you're going to undermine your so, you're going to undermine your so, you're going to undermine your successor, you're going to frustrate the successor, you're going to frustrate the successor, you're going to frustrate the team, and you're going to create a ton, team, and you're going to create a ton, team, and you're going to create a ton, a ton of problems along the way. a ton of problems along the way. a ton of problems along the way. Well, yeah, and all your great days are Well, yeah, and all your great days are Well, yeah, and all your great days are behind you then, right? There's nothing behind you then, right? There's nothing behind you then, right? There's nothing exciting to get you out of bed. Do you exciting to get you out of bed. Do you exciting to get you out of bed. Do you have a slightly, and I don't want to put have a slightly, and I don't want to put have a slightly, and I don't want to put you on the spot, but Scott, do you have you on the spot, but Scott, do you have you on the spot, but Scott, do you have a slightly longer list because this is a a slightly longer list because this is a a slightly longer list because this is a problem when I'm talking to founders or problem when I'm talking to founders or problem when I'm talking to founders or long-term pastors, you know, in the long-term pastors, you know, in the long-term pastors, you know, in the entrepreneurial world, I'll start entrepreneurial world, I'll start entrepreneurial world, I'll start another company. It's not always the another company. It's not always the another company. It's not always the healthiest or the wisest thing to start healthiest or the wisest thing to start healthiest or the wisest thing to start another church, particularly in your another church, particularly in your another church, particularly in your town. Bad idea, don't do it. Um maybe town. Bad idea, don't do it. Um maybe town. Bad idea, don't do it. Um maybe you haven't got another church in you.

you haven't got another church in you. you haven't got another church in you. You don't think that's faithful. And You don't think that's faithful. And You don't think that's faithful. And then they're like, well, I've been in then they're like, well, I've been in then they're like, well, I've been in ministry for 30, 40 years. I have no ministry for 30, 40 years. I have no ministry for 30, 40 years. I have no other skills. Like, you know, I don't I other skills. Like, you know, I don't I other skills. Like, you know, I don't I don't know what to do. So, I love the don't know what to do. So, I love the don't know what to do. So, I love the idea of book writing. idea of book writing. idea of book writing. Love the idea of playing another role Love the idea of playing another role Love the idea of playing another role somewhere or of focusing on your family. somewhere or of focusing on your family. somewhere or of focusing on your family. Uh but what, you know, you're right, the Uh but what, you know, you're right, the Uh but what, you know, you're right, the visionaries, like, this is my retirement visionaries, like, this is my retirement visionaries, like, this is my retirement project. I have no not even 60, but project. I have no not even 60, but project. I have no not even 60, but like, I have no plans on retiring. I like, I have no plans on retiring. I like, I have no plans on retiring. I just enjoy this so much and it's a just enjoy this so much and it's a just enjoy this so much and it's a parallel universe to the church I used parallel universe to the church I used parallel universe to the church I used to lead. Still live here, but the the to lead. Still live here, but the the to lead. Still live here, but the the paths don't cross. It's a very healthy paths don't cross. It's a very healthy paths don't cross. It's a very healthy relationship. relationship. relationship. So, that's that's very important, right? So, that's that's very important, right? So, that's that's very important, right? And I would say you have to reduce And I would say you have to reduce And I would say you have to reduce proximity at least for a period. I'm not proximity at least for a period. I'm not proximity at least for a period. I'm not going to give a timeline, but you have going to give a timeline, but you have going to give a timeline, but you have to get out of that mix. Otherwise, it's to get out of that mix. Otherwise, it's to get out of that mix. Otherwise, it's just going to like the the temptation to just going to like the the temptation to just going to like the the temptation to get sucked back in is too strong. Well, get sucked back in is too strong. Well, get sucked back in is too strong. Well, you're not going to like that you're not going to like that you're not going to like that even if your your successor is killing even if your your successor is killing even if your your successor is killing it. Yeah, I mean, I I my company that I it. Yeah, I mean, I I my company that I it. Yeah, I mean, I I my company that I handed off to, handed off to, handed off to, you know, they they added like 20% the you know, they they added like 20% the you know, they they added like 20% the two years after I left, right? It's two years after I left, right? It's two years after I left, right? It's like, yes. Oh, man, that hurts, you like, yes. Oh, man, that hurts, you like, yes. Oh, man, that hurts, you know? It's like know? It's like know? It's like cuz everything that they changed is is cuz everything that they changed is is cuz everything that they changed is is kind of like, it says something about me kind of like, it says something about me kind of like, it says something about me and my leadership, you know what I mean?

and my leadership, you know what I mean? and my leadership, you know what I mean? It's just It's just It's just It's hard, but let me answer your It's hard, but let me answer your It's hard, but let me answer your question with what stage seven is question with what stage seven is question with what stage seven is because again, this is this is really because again, this is this is really because again, this is this is really what makes stage six worth it. Stage six what makes stage six worth it. Stage six what makes stage six worth it. Stage six is about It's actually about learning to is about It's actually about learning to is about It's actually about learning to create space for another visionary. create space for another visionary. create space for another visionary. That's the skill set that you're That's the skill set that you're That's the skill set that you're building. building. building. Stage six, being a true owner, is Stage six, being a true owner, is Stage six, being a true owner, is learning the skill set of creating space learning the skill set of creating space learning the skill set of creating space for another visionary to succeed. for another visionary to succeed. for another visionary to succeed. Got it. Got it. Got it. Really hard to do, but it's massively Really hard to do, but it's massively Really hard to do, but it's massively rewarding when you do because guess rewarding when you do because guess rewarding when you do because guess what? There are thousands of visionaries what? There are thousands of visionaries what? There are thousands of visionaries in the next generation of leaders that in the next generation of leaders that in the next generation of leaders that need somebody to help show them the way. need somebody to help show them the way. need somebody to help show them the way. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Right? And once you learn to lead one of Right? And once you learn to lead one of Right? And once you learn to lead one of them, right? And create space for that them, right? And create space for that them, right? And create space for that one to really lead in his or her own one to really lead in his or her own one to really lead in his or her own right, your ability to translate to that right, your ability to translate to that right, your ability to translate to that to many of them goes through the roof. to many of them goes through the roof. to many of them goes through the roof. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And and so that's when you step into And and so that's when you step into And and so that's when you step into what I call stage seven, the visionary what I call stage seven, the visionary what I call stage seven, the visionary founder. Uh you actually to a sense go founder. Uh you actually to a sense go founder. Uh you actually to a sense go back into founder mode in some ways, but back into founder mode in some ways, but back into founder mode in some ways, but you're not starting your own things, you you're not starting your own things, you you're not starting your own things, you are supporting other people's things.

are supporting other people's things. are supporting other people's things. Mhm. Right? There's a Greek proverb that Mhm. Right? There's a Greek proverb that Mhm. Right? There's a Greek proverb that says uh society grows great when old men says uh society grows great when old men says uh society grows great when old men plant trees under whose shade they'll plant trees under whose shade they'll plant trees under whose shade they'll never sit. never sit. never sit. Wow. Wow. Wow. And stage seven is about building And stage seven is about building And stage seven is about building things, getting back into the game for things, getting back into the game for things, getting back into the game for the love of the game, building things the love of the game, building things the love of the game, building things that will never generate any direct that will never generate any direct that will never generate any direct result to you. That's not a requirement, result to you. That's not a requirement, result to you. That's not a requirement, but it's just the ethos of that, right? but it's just the ethos of that, right? but it's just the ethos of that, right? So you might get into in the business So you might get into in the business So you might get into in the business world venture capital and and get your world venture capital and and get your world venture capital and and get your money is working for you. That's a side money is working for you. That's a side money is working for you. That's a side thing. I I don't care if you make money thing. I I don't care if you make money thing. I I don't care if you make money on it or not, but you're not you're not on it or not, but you're not you're not on it or not, but you're not you're not you know, stage seven, you're not you know, stage seven, you're not you know, stage seven, you're not getting into it for what you can get getting into it for what you can get getting into it for what you can get out, you're getting into it for what you out, you're getting into it for what you out, you're getting into it for what you can pour in. You're not writing your can pour in. You're not writing your can pour in. You're not writing your book so that you can you know, become book so that you can you know, become book so that you can you know, become you know, X Y and Z, you're writing your you know, X Y and Z, you're writing your you know, X Y and Z, you're writing your book because of the impact that it's book because of the impact that it's book because of the impact that it's going to make in future founders' lives going to make in future founders' lives going to make in future founders' lives or future fill in the blank, whoever it or future fill in the blank, whoever it or future fill in the blank, whoever it may be. Yeah, and if it hits the list, may be. Yeah, and if it hits the list, may be. Yeah, and if it hits the list, all the better, but otherwise that all the better, but otherwise that all the better, but otherwise that wasn't the goal. wasn't the goal. wasn't the goal. It's not the motivating factor. Uh the It's not the motivating factor. Uh the It's not the motivating factor. Uh the other thing that you can do is and it other thing that you can do is and it other thing that you can do is and it this is often times an age thing or an this is often times an age thing or an this is often times an age thing or an energy thing is more energy thing is more energy thing is more more helpful. You can go back to stage more helpful. You can go back to stage more helpful. You can go back to stage two in another environment. Mhm. Right?

two in another environment. Mhm. Right? two in another environment. Mhm. Right? You and I did this, a lot of coaches You and I did this, a lot of coaches You and I did this, a lot of coaches right where we we say, "Hey, I've I've right where we we say, "Hey, I've I've right where we we say, "Hey, I've I've kind of done my thing. I want to go hang kind of done my thing. I want to go hang kind of done my thing. I want to go hang my shingle and do this my shingle and do this my shingle and do this you know, with a slightly different you know, with a slightly different you know, with a slightly different take, right? take, right? take, right? it doesn't need to be big. We're not it doesn't need to be big. We're not it doesn't need to be big. We're not going to scale this. It's not going to going to scale this. It's not going to going to scale this. It's not going to become a corp. It's just going to be me become a corp. It's just going to be me become a corp. It's just going to be me doing a few things four days a week. You doing a few things four days a week. You doing a few things four days a week. You can go rock stage two somewhere else and can go rock stage two somewhere else and can go rock stage two somewhere else and maybe it gets a little bit of wind maybe it gets a little bit of wind maybe it gets a little bit of wind behind in its sails and it it moves to behind in its sails and it it moves to behind in its sails and it it moves to stage three and you decide, "Hey, I've stage three and you decide, "Hey, I've stage three and you decide, "Hey, I've got another 5 10 years. Let's take this got another 5 10 years. Let's take this got another 5 10 years. Let's take this to stage five again." So you've already to stage five again." So you've already to stage five again." So you've already been down that path. Here's the cool been down that path. Here's the cool been down that path. Here's the cool thing about that is you'll go through thing about that is you'll go through thing about that is you'll go through these stages much faster the second time these stages much faster the second time these stages much faster the second time than the first time if you recognize than the first time if you recognize than the first time if you recognize those stages as they come. those stages as they come. those stages as they come. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right? If you go and you go back to Right? If you go and you go back to Right? If you go and you go back to stage two and you're like, "This is what stage two and you're like, "This is what stage two and you're like, "This is what works in stage two. I've been here. I works in stage two. I've been here. I works in stage two. I've been here. I know I can do it. I'll do it again. This know I can do it. I'll do it again. This know I can do it. I'll do it again. This is what works in stage three. I've been is what works in stage three. I've been is what works in stage three. I've been here. I can do it. I'm going to do it here. I can do it. I'm going to do it here. I can do it. I'm going to do it again." Those stages get much shorter, again." Those stages get much shorter, again." Those stages get much shorter, right? The success they they don't hurt right? The success they they don't hurt right? The success they they don't hurt nearly as bad. The success you achieve nearly as bad. The success you achieve nearly as bad. The success you achieve during those stages is much higher. It during those stages is much higher. It during those stages is much higher. It it's again, it's a very rewarding it's again, it's a very rewarding it's again, it's a very rewarding process. Why? Because you did all the process. Why? Because you did all the process. Why? Because you did all the hard work leading up to it. Mhm. Right?

hard work leading up to it. Mhm. Right? hard work leading up to it. Mhm. Right? Okay, this is great. If there's nothing Okay, this is great. If there's nothing Okay, this is great. If there's nothing else on stage seven, can you give us else on stage seven, can you give us else on stage seven, can you give us just 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, just a quick recap just 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, just a quick recap just 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, just a quick recap of the seven stages? Yes. Even the of the seven stages? Yes. Even the of the seven stages? Yes. Even the names? names? names? we can go on and on about stage seven, we can go on and on about stage seven, we can go on and on about stage seven, but let's just do the the names. So but let's just do the the names. So but let's just do the the names. So stage one, dissatisfied employee. Mhm. stage one, dissatisfied employee. Mhm. stage one, dissatisfied employee. Mhm. Stage two, startup entrepreneur. Stage two, startup entrepreneur. Stage two, startup entrepreneur. Stage three, reluctant manager. Stage three, reluctant manager. Stage three, reluctant manager. Stage four, disillusioned leader. Stage Stage four, disillusioned leader. Stage Stage four, disillusioned leader. Stage five, the chief executive. Stage six, five, the chief executive. Stage six, five, the chief executive. Stage six, the true owner. And stage seven, the true owner. And stage seven, the true owner. And stage seven, visionary founder. visionary founder. visionary founder. Cool. That gives a pathway for so many Cool. That gives a pathway for so many Cool. That gives a pathway for so many people in such a helpful way and that's people in such a helpful way and that's people in such a helpful way and that's one of the reasons when I looked at your one of the reasons when I looked at your one of the reasons when I looked at your book, I'm like, "Oh, I want to have this book, I'm like, "Oh, I want to have this book, I'm like, "Oh, I want to have this conversation with you." So conversation with you." So conversation with you." So a lot of people listening to this are a lot of people listening to this are a lot of people listening to this are the founder, the entrepreneur, the the founder, the entrepreneur, the the founder, the entrepreneur, the legacy pastor, the founding pastor. Been legacy pastor, the founding pastor. Been legacy pastor, the founding pastor. Been there for a while, but a lot more there for a while, but a lot more there for a while, but a lot more probably are next gen. They're they're probably are next gen. They're they're probably are next gen. They're they're the next layer down or two layers down the next layer down or two layers down the next layer down or two layers down in the organization. And as they're in the organization. And as they're in the organization. And as they're listening to this, they see their boss listening to this, they see their boss listening to this, they see their boss stuck in one of these stages. So it's a stuck in one of these stages. So it's a stuck in one of these stages. So it's a reluctant manager, not a very good reluctant manager, not a very good reluctant manager, not a very good manager.

manager. manager. Maybe somebody who's not really ready to Maybe somebody who's not really ready to Maybe somebody who's not really ready to become a true owner. They're going to become a true owner. They're going to become a true owner. They're going to ride this thing into the sunset, die ride this thing into the sunset, die ride this thing into the sunset, die with their boots on. It's not good for with their boots on. It's not good for with their boots on. It's not good for the organization. The best days are the organization. The best days are the organization. The best days are behind the organization. What advice do behind the organization. What advice do behind the organization. What advice do you have for a second or third chair you have for a second or third chair you have for a second or third chair leaders who see a boss that's sort of leaders who see a boss that's sort of leaders who see a boss that's sort of stuck in a stage for too long and would stuck in a stage for too long and would stuck in a stage for too long and would love to see a breakthrough on that and love to see a breakthrough on that and love to see a breakthrough on that and for the sake of the organization and for the sake of the organization and for the sake of the organization and perhaps for their sake and the sake of perhaps for their sake and the sake of perhaps for their sake and the sake of their boss, too. their boss, too. their boss, too. Yeah. All right. First thing, someone Yeah. All right. First thing, someone Yeah. All right. First thing, someone told me this right as I got into told me this right as I got into told me this right as I got into coaching and I wish I had known it coaching and I wish I had known it coaching and I wish I had known it earlier in my career and that is that earlier in my career and that is that earlier in my career and that is that you can never be more desperate for the you can never be more desperate for the you can never be more desperate for the success of your client than they are. success of your client than they are. success of your client than they are. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So if you're in an organization, you So if you're in an organization, you So if you're in an organization, you cannot be more desperate for your boss's cannot be more desperate for your boss's cannot be more desperate for your boss's growth than they are. growth than they are. growth than they are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it it's a real It it it's a real It it it's a real not desperate for the growth. This is not desperate for the growth. This is not desperate for the growth. This is the problem, the problem, the problem, Yeah. So you have to put a ceiling on Yeah. So you have to put a ceiling on Yeah. So you have to put a ceiling on your desire for their improvement that your desire for their improvement that your desire for their improvement that is at or below theirs. is at or below theirs. is at or below theirs. Mhm. That's really hard, but it's Mhm. That's really hard, but it's Mhm. That's really hard, but it's liberating, right? The reason why this liberating, right? The reason why this liberating, right? The reason why this is so hard for folks is because they is so hard for folks is because they is so hard for folks is because they keep trying to wait they keep waiting keep trying to wait they keep waiting keep trying to wait they keep waiting for that ceiling to change, right? They for that ceiling to change, right? They for that ceiling to change, right? They keep trying to push it into something.

keep trying to push it into something. keep trying to push it into something. And and in doing so, they're just stuck And and in doing so, they're just stuck And and in doing so, they're just stuck in the the kind of oscillation, the in the the kind of oscillation, the in the the kind of oscillation, the ambivalence that happens in that ambivalence that happens in that ambivalence that happens in that environment or they're just downright environment or they're just downright environment or they're just downright antagonistic with the the person that antagonistic with the the person that antagonistic with the the person that they're trying to change. You can't they're trying to change. You can't they're trying to change. You can't change anybody else, you can only change change anybody else, you can only change change anybody else, you can only change you. And when we come to that you. And when we come to that you. And when we come to that conclusion, it sets up conclusion, it sets up conclusion, it sets up a scary decision that we have to make, a scary decision that we have to make, a scary decision that we have to make, right? And this is why we won't make right? And this is why we won't make right? And this is why we won't make this decision and that is this decision and that is this decision and that is you might have to leave. you might have to leave. you might have to leave. Yeah. And it's okay. Yeah. And it's okay. Yeah. And it's okay. Right? It's not disloyal, right? It's Right? It's not disloyal, right? It's Right? It's not disloyal, right? It's not all like it's it's not all of those not all like it's it's not all of those not all like it's it's not all of those things. You can leave and you can thrive things. You can leave and you can thrive things. You can leave and you can thrive in another environment. And and and in another environment. And and and in another environment. And and and probably to the extent that you've been probably to the extent that you've been probably to the extent that you've been super frustrated, just about everyone super frustrated, just about everyone super frustrated, just about everyone will benefit from that, right? So the will benefit from that, right? So the will benefit from that, right? So the first one is you just have to be okay or first one is you just have to be okay or first one is you just have to be okay or understand the circumstances in which it understand the circumstances in which it understand the circumstances in which it would be best for you to leave. would be best for you to leave. would be best for you to leave. Sure. Fair. Sure. Fair. Sure. Fair. Because what that does is it makes it Because what that does is it makes it Because what that does is it makes it your choice that you are still there.

your choice that you are still there. your choice that you are still there. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And that does something for our heads, And that does something for our heads, And that does something for our heads, right? It's not happening to us anymore. right? It's not happening to us anymore. right? It's not happening to us anymore. They're not limiting us anymore. I chose They're not limiting us anymore. I chose They're not limiting us anymore. I chose to be in this seat. And so what I'll to be in this seat. And so what I'll to be in this seat. And so what I'll tell people is tell people is tell people is do you have is there some more left for do you have is there some more left for do you have is there some more left for you to learn there? Is there still more you to learn there? Is there still more you to learn there? Is there still more experiences? Is this the best thing for experiences? Is this the best thing for experiences? Is this the best thing for you? The lid is what the lid is, right? you? The lid is what the lid is, right? you? The lid is what the lid is, right? Let's just imagine that's not going to Let's just imagine that's not going to Let's just imagine that's not going to change and hope that it does. But we change and hope that it does. But we change and hope that it does. But we have to we have to operate as if this have to we have to operate as if this have to we have to operate as if this leader is not going to go anywhere. leader is not going to go anywhere. leader is not going to go anywhere. Is this still the best place for you? Is this still the best place for you? Is this still the best place for you? And sometimes that's a yes, right? I've And sometimes that's a yes, right? I've And sometimes that's a yes, right? I've counseled friends and and clients counseled friends and and clients counseled friends and and clients through this and they've said, "You know through this and they've said, "You know through this and they've said, "You know what? It is. There's a lot of great what? It is. There's a lot of great what? It is. There's a lot of great things here and I'm okay with that. things here and I'm okay with that. things here and I'm okay with that. There's a lot that I can learn." There's a lot that I can learn." There's a lot that I can learn." Other folks have said, Other folks have said, Other folks have said, "No." "No." "No." Uh you know, and they'll go on to be Uh you know, and they'll go on to be Uh you know, and they'll go on to be founders of their own organizations or founders of their own organizations or founders of their own organizations or they'll find another thing. That's okay. they'll find another thing. That's okay. they'll find another thing. That's okay. So once it's your choice, it it takes So once it's your choice, it it takes So once it's your choice, it it takes the ability for us to complain away.

the ability for us to complain away. the ability for us to complain away. Right? Mhm. Right? Mhm. Right? Mhm. I remember I was stuck in this mode once I remember I was stuck in this mode once I remember I was stuck in this mode once with a a leader and I was just with a a leader and I was just with a a leader and I was just complaining and complaining about it to complaining and complaining about it to complaining and complaining about it to my dad and he said, "You either need to my dad and he said, "You either need to my dad and he said, "You either need to or get off the pot." Right? Like you you or get off the pot." Right? Like you you or get off the pot." Right? Like you you have to decide what you're going to do. have to decide what you're going to do. have to decide what you're going to do. And so for folks who are like that, um And so for folks who are like that, um And so for folks who are like that, um you just have to decide if they never you just have to decide if they never you just have to decide if they never changed, is this still the best place changed, is this still the best place changed, is this still the best place for you right now? If they never for you right now? If they never for you right now? If they never changed, right? Mhm. Do you still do you changed, right? Mhm. Do you still do you changed, right? Mhm. Do you still do you choose to stay here? choose to stay here? choose to stay here? So So So I want to say all of that first because I want to say all of that first because I want to say all of that first because if you don't do if you don't do anything if you don't do if you don't do anything if you don't do if you don't do anything else I'm about to talk about from that else I'm about to talk about from that else I'm about to talk about from that lens, you will create an antagonistic lens, you will create an antagonistic lens, you will create an antagonistic relationship with your leader. You want relationship with your leader. You want relationship with your leader. You want what's best for them and the what's best for them and the what's best for them and the organization, but the organization, but the organization, but the you have to go through them to get it you have to go through them to get it you have to go through them to get it and that's not a good place to be. and that's not a good place to be. and that's not a good place to be. Sure. Sure. Sure. So then let's say you stay you stay and So then let's say you stay you stay and So then let's say you stay you stay and we're in like, "Okay, let's hope for the we're in like, "Okay, let's hope for the we're in like, "Okay, let's hope for the best. What can we do to positively best. What can we do to positively best. What can we do to positively encourage them?"

encourage them?" encourage them?" Uh one, you can you can share the book Uh one, you can you can share the book Uh one, you can you can share the book if you thought it was helpful or this if you thought it was helpful or this if you thought it was helpful or this podcast. Share Kerry's podcast is podcast. Share Kerry's podcast is podcast. Share Kerry's podcast is phenomenal. phenomenal. phenomenal. The other thing is The other thing is The other thing is you know, faith-based folks here, pray you know, faith-based folks here, pray you know, faith-based folks here, pray for them, right? Pray for that the Lord for them, right? Pray for that the Lord for them, right? Pray for that the Lord would reveal it to them. And he you would reveal it to them. And he you would reveal it to them. And he you know, he will like he will speak to them know, he will like he will speak to them know, he will like he will speak to them in his way and in their time in his way and in their time in his way and in their time and in his time. Love them well. If you and in his time. Love them well. If you and in his time. Love them well. If you if you love them deeply and you express if you love them deeply and you express if you love them deeply and you express that love to them deeply, you will build that love to them deeply, you will build that love to them deeply, you will build a bigger bridge for truth. a bigger bridge for truth. a bigger bridge for truth. Mhm. Right? And so you have to Mhm. Right? And so you have to Mhm. Right? And so you have to consistently commit to loving and consistently commit to loving and consistently commit to loving and supporting them even when they're wrong, supporting them even when they're wrong, supporting them even when they're wrong, right? You still love them through that. right? You still love them through that. right? You still love them through that. Uh pray for them and then uh Uh pray for them and then uh Uh pray for them and then uh this can this this gets really fun, this can this this gets really fun, this can this this gets really fun, right? So let's say you've committed to right? So let's say you've committed to right? So let's say you've committed to staying, you're loving them well, you're staying, you're loving them well, you're staying, you're loving them well, you're praying for them, then you want to just praying for them, then you want to just praying for them, then you want to just have fun being as creative with you as have fun being as creative with you as have fun being as creative with you as you can, dropping as many hints as you you can, dropping as many hints as you you can, dropping as many hints as you can all over the place to hopefully see can all over the place to hopefully see can all over the place to hopefully see one day one of those ideas stick and the one day one of those ideas stick and the one day one of those ideas stick and the the founder thinks it's their idea, the founder thinks it's their idea, the founder thinks it's their idea, right? That that's that's what you do.

right? That that's that's what you do. right? That that's that's what you do. From now on, all that frustration, you From now on, all that frustration, you From now on, all that frustration, you just turn it into fun by by coming up just turn it into fun by by coming up just turn it into fun by by coming up with clever ways of like, you know, just with clever ways of like, you know, just with clever ways of like, you know, just saying it differently, offering saying it differently, offering saying it differently, offering thoughts, you're sharing stories and and thoughts, you're sharing stories and and thoughts, you're sharing stories and and and just have fun with it, right? Have and just have fun with it, right? Have and just have fun with it, right? Have Have fun being creative in ways of Have fun being creative in ways of Have fun being creative in ways of encouraging them to think differently. encouraging them to think differently. encouraging them to think differently. Man, that is that's an awesome place to Man, that is that's an awesome place to Man, that is that's an awesome place to be, Carey. If If you If you've settled be, Carey. If If you If you've settled be, Carey. If If you If you've settled in your heart that you're okay, right? in your heart that you're okay, right? in your heart that you're okay, right? And they don't have to change for you to And they don't have to change for you to And they don't have to change for you to be okay, you are one of the most be okay, you are one of the most be okay, you are one of the most powerful people in the world. powerful people in the world. powerful people in the world. I've got a buddy who's done that right I've got a buddy who's done that right I've got a buddy who's done that right now. Mhm. now. Mhm. now. Mhm. That's the place he's in. He's not in That's the place he's in. He's not in That's the place he's in. He's not in ultimate control, very, you know, ultimate control, very, you know, ultimate control, very, you know, successful executive, and that's his successful executive, and that's his successful executive, and that's his mindset, and he's generally happy. He mindset, and he's generally happy. He mindset, and he's generally happy. He wishes the CEO would make different wishes the CEO would make different wishes the CEO would make different changes, but changes, but changes, but that's fantastic. Wow, we covered a lot. that's fantastic. Wow, we covered a lot. that's fantastic. Wow, we covered a lot. Uh is there a final word, anything else Uh is there a final word, anything else Uh is there a final word, anything else you want to share before we wrap up? The you want to share before we wrap up? The you want to share before we wrap up? The last thing that I want to share is funny last thing that I want to share is funny last thing that I want to share is funny story. Uh so, another one of my romantic story. Uh so, another one of my romantic story. Uh so, another one of my romantic fails. Uh fails. Uh fails. Uh Mother's Day at some I can't remember Mother's Day at some I can't remember Mother's Day at some I can't remember exactly when this happened, but it was exactly when this happened, but it was exactly when this happened, but it was Mother's Day, and I decided I was going Mother's Day, and I decided I was going Mother's Day, and I decided I was going to like make a big dinner. So, I told my to like make a big dinner. So, I told my to like make a big dinner. So, I told my wife, like, go out, it was after church, wife, like, go out, it was after church, wife, like, go out, it was after church, go out, have a blast, you know, come go out, have a blast, you know, come go out, have a blast, you know, come back, I'll have everything ready. I'll back, I'll have everything ready. I'll back, I'll have everything ready. I'll take care of the kids as well. She's take care of the kids as well. She's take care of the kids as well. She's like, are you sure? You know, I was like, are you sure? You know, I was like, are you sure? You know, I was like, we've got We live life wide open like, we've got We live life wide open like, we've got We live life wide open at the Ristermer household. I was like, at the Ristermer household. I was like, at the Ristermer household. I was like, yes, I got it, I got it, you know, yes, I got it, I got it, you know, yes, I got it, I got it, you know, steaks, potatoes, the whole thing.

steaks, potatoes, the whole thing. steaks, potatoes, the whole thing. Well, Well, Well, I'm not I'm a visionary, I'm not a I'm not I'm a visionary, I'm not a I'm not I'm a visionary, I'm not a planner, right? And so, I didn't have planner, right? And so, I didn't have planner, right? And so, I didn't have half the things that I needed. Three half the things that I needed. Three half the things that I needed. Three Three hours later, three trips to the Three hours later, three trips to the Three hours later, three trips to the grocery store, where I'm pretty sure I grocery store, where I'm pretty sure I grocery store, where I'm pretty sure I paid three times what I should have for, paid three times what I should have for, paid three times what I should have for, you know, everything. Uh my wife comes you know, everything. Uh my wife comes you know, everything. Uh my wife comes home at the kind of dedicated time, and home at the kind of dedicated time, and home at the kind of dedicated time, and it is chaos. Like, my two boys are are it is chaos. Like, my two boys are are it is chaos. Like, my two boys are are fighting over the TV remote, while fighting over the TV remote, while fighting over the TV remote, while they're fighting over the remote, some they're fighting over the remote, some they're fighting over the remote, some YouTube commercial for a horror movie YouTube commercial for a horror movie YouTube commercial for a horror movie comes on, right? Like, I've no idea how comes on, right? Like, I've no idea how comes on, right? Like, I've no idea how the algorithm chose that for this the algorithm chose that for this the algorithm chose that for this moment. My wife walks in, my daughter moment. My wife walks in, my daughter moment. My wife walks in, my daughter doesn't have her clothes on cuz she was doesn't have her clothes on cuz she was doesn't have her clothes on cuz she was potty training, and the steaks are like, potty training, and the steaks are like, potty training, and the steaks are like, the whole grill is in flames, right? The the whole grill is in flames, right? The the whole grill is in flames, right? The potatoes are burning, it's just potatoes are burning, it's just potatoes are burning, it's just everything is wrong about this everything is wrong about this everything is wrong about this situation. And she like, situation. And she like, situation. And she like, I wish I was at my best at this moment, I wish I was at my best at this moment, I wish I was at my best at this moment, but I wasn't. So, she's like, what's but I wasn't. So, she's like, what's but I wasn't. So, she's like, what's going on? And I'm like, uh you know, going on? And I'm like, uh you know, going on? And I'm like, uh you know, it's it's just it was not a pretty it's it's just it was not a pretty it's it's just it was not a pretty scene. scene. scene. Cooler heads prevail, we get the fires Cooler heads prevail, we get the fires Cooler heads prevail, we get the fires out, we get the TV off, and we said, out, we get the TV off, and we said, out, we get the TV off, and we said, we're just going to go out to eat, we're just going to go out to eat, we're just going to go out to eat, right? And And fortunately, we actually right? And And fortunately, we actually right? And And fortunately, we actually had a wonderful meal. We We went to had a wonderful meal. We We went to had a wonderful meal. We We went to There's this little steakhouse by the by There's this little steakhouse by the by There's this little steakhouse by the by our house. We went there, everyone got our house. We went there, everyone got our house. We went there, everyone got what they wanted. And she leaned over to what they wanted. And she leaned over to what they wanted. And she leaned over to me, and she only gets to do this cuz me, and she only gets to do this cuz me, and she only gets to do this cuz she's my wife, and she was right, but she's my wife, and she was right, but she's my wife, and she was right, but she's like, I told you so. You know, I she's like, I told you so. You know, I she's like, I told you so. You know, I was like, was like, was like, you know, I I was I was stepping out of you know, I I was I was stepping out of you know, I I was I was stepping out of my lane, right? I was I was trying to do my lane, right? I was I was trying to do my lane, right? I was I was trying to do all these things. I thought to be a all these things. I thought to be a all these things. I thought to be a great dad and a a great husband, I had

great dad and a a great husband, I had great dad and a a great husband, I had to be the chef and to be the and to be to be the chef and to be the and to be to be the chef and to be the and to be the and I thought I had to be all the the and I thought I had to be all the the and I thought I had to be all the things. I had thought I had to figure it things. I had thought I had to figure it things. I had thought I had to figure it all out myself. all out myself. all out myself. When in reality, I could easily have When in reality, I could easily have When in reality, I could easily have someone else help me with it. someone else help me with it. someone else help me with it. Mhm. And when I got out of the way and Mhm. And when I got out of the way and Mhm. And when I got out of the way and let the professionals do their job, let the professionals do their job, let the professionals do their job, you know, it created a space for me to you know, it created a space for me to you know, it created a space for me to be a great dad. To be a great CEO, you be a great dad. To be a great CEO, you be a great dad. To be a great CEO, you don't have to do all the things, right? don't have to do all the things, right? don't have to do all the things, right? You just have to get the right people You just have to get the right people You just have to get the right people around you, the professionals who do around you, the professionals who do around you, the professionals who do this day in and day out, to help set you this day in and day out, to help set you this day in and day out, to help set you up for success. up for success. up for success. Mhm. That's a great final word. Well, Mhm. That's a great final word. Well, Mhm. That's a great final word. Well, the book is short, so you will probably the book is short, so you will probably the book is short, so you will probably read it if you get it. It's called The read it if you get it. It's called The read it if you get it. It's called The Founder's Evolution. I really Founder's Evolution. I really Founder's Evolution. I really appreciated it, Scott. appreciated it, Scott. appreciated it, Scott. Uh where can they find you and the book Uh where can they find you and the book Uh where can they find you and the book online these days? Yeah, if you head to online these days? Yeah, if you head to online these days? Yeah, if you head to scalearchitects.com/cnlp, uh Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast, uh Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast, scalearchitects.com/cnlp, scalearchitects.com/cnlp, scalearchitects.com/cnlp, you can get a copy of the book for free. you can get a copy of the book for free. you can get a copy of the book for free. There's a digital copy there. Like you There's a digital copy there. Like you There's a digital copy there. Like you said, uh it was described as the said, uh it was described as the said, uh it was described as the authority of a textbook in the length of authority of a textbook in the length of authority of a textbook in the length of a comic. Uh and so, it's it's uh it's a a comic. Uh and so, it's it's uh it's a a comic. Uh and so, it's it's uh it's a nice short and sweet book written for nice short and sweet book written for nice short and sweet book written for founders who don't have a whole lot of founders who don't have a whole lot of founders who don't have a whole lot of time for a whole bunch of stuff. Uh it's time for a whole bunch of stuff. Uh it's time for a whole bunch of stuff. Uh it's going to do a couple things, it's going going to do a couple things, it's going going to do a couple things, it's going to go through the stages, but there's to go through the stages, but there's to go through the stages, but there's two things that are really important.

two things that are really important. two things that are really important. One, it's going to show you what to One, it's going to show you what to One, it's going to show you what to actually do in that stage. We didn't actually do in that stage. We didn't actually do in that stage. We didn't have time for like, what do you actually have time for like, what do you actually have time for like, what do you actually do? do? do? And uh so, it's going to show you that, And uh so, it's going to show you that, And uh so, it's going to show you that, and in doing so, it actually tells you and in doing so, it actually tells you and in doing so, it actually tells you what you don't have to do. Once you know what you don't have to do. Once you know what you don't have to do. Once you know what you have to do, that means there's what you have to do, that means there's what you have to do, that means there's 20, 30 things you don't have to do. And 20, 30 things you don't have to do. And 20, 30 things you don't have to do. And several of the folks who read it and several of the folks who read it and several of the folks who read it and applied it came back to me, and they're applied it came back to me, and they're applied it came back to me, and they're like, you would not believe it, I'm like, you would not believe it, I'm like, you would not believe it, I'm saving like 15 hours a week. saving like 15 hours a week. saving like 15 hours a week. Mhm. By By just things I didn't have to Mhm. By By just things I didn't have to Mhm. By By just things I didn't have to do. I didn't realize I didn't have to do do. I didn't realize I didn't have to do do. I didn't realize I didn't have to do those anymore. So, take you you know, an those anymore. So, take you you know, an those anymore. So, take you you know, an hour maybe to read it, and can save you hour maybe to read it, and can save you hour maybe to read it, and can save you 10 times that in the first week. 10 times that in the first week. 10 times that in the first week. Okay, that's fantastic. So, Okay, that's fantastic. So, Okay, that's fantastic. So, scalearchitects.com/cnlp. We'll link to that in the show notes. We'll link to that in the show notes. Scott, want to thank you so much. Really Scott, want to thank you so much. Really Scott, want to thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Carey, thanks so much. It appreciate it. Carey, thanks so much. It appreciate it. Carey, thanks so much. It was my pleasure.