Has Therapy Become the New Church? with Dr. Alison Cook

some of us even in the best of homes some of us even in the best of homes grew up where it was like no all of that grew up where it was like no all of that grew up where it was like no all of that was spiritual all of that just pray that was spiritual all of that just pray that was spiritual all of that just pray that away just choose Joy it's it's mind over away just choose Joy it's it's mind over away just choose Joy it's it's mind over matter and it's like well actually it's matter and it's like well actually it's matter and it's like well actually it's not welcome to the K newoff leadership not welcome to the K newoff leadership not welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube today I've got Dr podcast on YouTube today I've got Dr podcast on YouTube today I've got Dr Allison cook and we're going to talk Allison cook and we're going to talk Allison cook and we're going to talk about among other things why therapy has about among other things why therapy has about among other things why therapy has become the new church today's episode is become the new church today's episode is become the new church today's episode is brought to you by Glue don't let your brought to you by Glue don't let your brought to you by Glue don't let your message Fade Into the background sign up message Fade Into the background sign up message Fade Into the background sign up for free texting with glue today at for free texting with glue today at for free texting with glue today at glue. us/ freet texting and by glue. us/ freet texting and by glue. us/ freet texting and by compassion man I love compassion watch compassion man I love compassion watch compassion man I love compassion watch how God uses your church to impact the how God uses your church to impact the how God uses your church to impact the world when you host a Compassion Sunday world when you host a Compassion Sunday world when you host a Compassion Sunday find out more at compassion.com carry find out more at compassion.com carry find out more at compassion.com carry and hey if you're brand new to YouTube and hey if you're brand new to YouTube and hey if you're brand new to YouTube make sure you subscribe you know the make sure you subscribe you know the make sure you subscribe you know the vast majority of you who watch these vast majority of you who watch these vast majority of you who watch these episodes don't subscribe so if you do episodes don't subscribe so if you do episodes don't subscribe so if you do that you'll never miss another one and that you'll never miss another one and that you'll never miss another one and now my conversation with Dr Allison cook now my conversation with Dr Allison cook now my conversation with Dr Allison cook on why therapy has become the new church on why therapy has become the new church on why therapy has become the new church Allison it's great to have you on the Allison it's great to have you on the Allison it's great to have you on the podcast welcome I am so glad to be here podcast welcome I am so glad to be here podcast welcome I am so glad to be here Carrie I I really appreciate this Carrie I I really appreciate this Carrie I I really appreciate this podcast it's one of the ones that I let podcast it's one of the ones that I let podcast it's one of the ones that I let inform me so I appreciate being here inform me so I appreciate being here inform me so I appreciate being here with you well that's humbling to hear with you well that's humbling to hear with you well that's humbling to hear and great to know and you have a what and great to know and you have a what and great to know and you have a what did you just tell me a PhD in religious did you just tell me a PhD in religious did you just tell me a PhD in religious psychology like what is it yeah I have a psychology like what is it yeah I have a psychology like what is it yeah I have a master's degree in counseling as well as master's degree in counseling as well as master's degree in counseling as well as a PhD it's a joint degree in Psychology a PhD it's a joint degree in Psychology a PhD it's a joint degree in Psychology and religion so technically I am a and religion so technically I am a and religion so technically I am a psychologist of religion so I like to psychologist of religion so I like to psychologist of religion so I like to study both um which is very culturally

study both um which is very culturally study both um which is very culturally relevant right now but I'm a therapist relevant right now but I'm a therapist relevant right now but I'm a therapist I'm a pract licensed therapist but I I'm a pract licensed therapist but I I'm a pract licensed therapist but I went on to do extra work because I'm went on to do extra work because I'm went on to do extra work because I'm fascinated by that interplay between fascinated by that interplay between fascinated by that interplay between psychology and religion so what what psychology and religion so what what psychology and religion so what what what does that involve like I'm just what does that involve like I'm just what does that involve like I'm just really curious a lot of the history of really curious a lot of the history of really curious a lot of the history of psychology right so Clinical Psychology psychology right so Clinical Psychology psychology right so Clinical Psychology or the practice of therapy you're really or the practice of therapy you're really or the practice of therapy you're really studying um kind of modalities how to studying um kind of modalities how to studying um kind of modalities how to intervene how to help people reframe intervene how to help people reframe intervene how to help people reframe thoughts heal trauma um but the thoughts heal trauma um but the thoughts heal trauma um but the psychology of religion is really getting psychology of religion is really getting psychology of religion is really getting at the larger broader history going back at the larger broader history going back at the larger broader history going back to and it's really important and I think to and it's really important and I think to and it's really important and I think really relevant to churches in a in a really relevant to churches in a in a really relevant to churches in a in a way where religious institutions Church way where religious institutions Church way where religious institutions Church institutions were the primary shaping institutions were the primary shaping institutions were the primary shaping influence on culture and on humans for influence on culture and on humans for influence on culture and on humans for centuries and then Freud came in William centuries and then Freud came in William centuries and then Freud came in William James came in some of these early James came in some of these early James came in some of these early psychologists came in with this other psychologists came in with this other psychologists came in with this other way of like wait let's look at the human way of like wait let's look at the human way of like wait let's look at the human psyche right and that became a hugely psyche right and that became a hugely psyche right and that became a hugely shaping influence on culture and from my shaping influence on culture and from my shaping influence on culture and from my little vantage point when I started out little vantage point when I started out little vantage point when I started out with all this was like aren't both with all this was like aren't both with all this was like aren't both important right don't we need both and important right don't we need both and important right don't we need both and so the study of psychology and religion so the study of psychology and religion so the study of psychology and religion is kind of studying the overlaps and is kind of studying the overlaps and is kind of studying the overlaps and intersections of how the two Fields kind intersections of how the two Fields kind intersections of how the two Fields kind of shape culture shape human selves well of shape culture shape human selves well of shape culture shape human selves well it's sort of an interesting it's sort of an interesting it's sort of an interesting juxtoposition because I think there's an juxtoposition because I think there's an juxtoposition because I think there's an argument that therapy is the new argument that therapy is the new argument that therapy is the new religion like basically I don't go to religion like basically I don't go to religion like basically I don't go to church I go to therapy right uh the two

church I go to therapy right uh the two church I go to therapy right uh the two seem to be uh probably more connected seem to be uh probably more connected seem to be uh probably more connected and then you you know we'll get into and then you you know we'll get into and then you you know we'll get into this but you have a lot of what I call this but you have a lot of what I call this but you have a lot of what I call Pop therapists in the Pulpit people who Pop therapists in the Pulpit people who Pop therapists in the Pulpit people who didn't actually study the craft but didn't actually study the craft but didn't actually study the craft but think that they know about it um why has think that they know about it um why has think that they know about it um why has therapy gotten so big over the the last therapy gotten so big over the the last therapy gotten so big over the the last little while yeah it's a great question little while yeah it's a great question little while yeah it's a great question I mean I think if you just look at the I mean I think if you just look at the I mean I think if you just look at the numbers first of all there's no doubt it numbers first of all there's no doubt it numbers first of all there's no doubt it has I think the latest study showed that has I think the latest study showed that has I think the latest study showed that it's the number of people in therapy the it's the number of people in therapy the it's the number of people in therapy the number of adults in the US has doubled number of adults in the US has doubled number of adults in the US has doubled in the last two decades it's extremely in the last two decades it's extremely in the last two decades it's extremely more than I think it's a quarter of the more than I think it's a quarter of the more than I think it's a quarter of the population is in therapy and that's way population is in therapy and that's way population is in therapy and that's way higher among gen Z and Millennials it's higher among gen Z and Millennials it's higher among gen Z and Millennials it's probably more than half um so it is true probably more than half um so it is true probably more than half um so it is true that therapy has just skyrocketed in its that therapy has just skyrocketed in its that therapy has just skyrocketed in its role in the culture there's a lot of role in the culture there's a lot of role in the culture there's a lot of reasons for that I mean I I think as reasons for that I mean I I think as reasons for that I mean I I think as again sort of a historian when I I look again sort of a historian when I I look again sort of a historian when I I look at the big big picture I think some of at the big big picture I think some of at the big big picture I think some of it is that these amazing you know I am a it is that these amazing you know I am a it is that these amazing you know I am a I am primarily a psychologist and so for I am primarily a psychologist and so for I am primarily a psychologist and so for me I see the deficits but I also see the me I see the deficits but I also see the me I see the deficits but I also see the good in it there's some amazing things good in it there's some amazing things good in it there's some amazing things we've learned about attachment about we've learned about attachment about we've learned about attachment about emotions about the way that trauma and emotions about the way that trauma and emotions about the way that trauma and pain lives in the body and the nervous pain lives in the body and the nervous pain lives in the body and the nervous system there's a lot of things we've system there's a lot of things we've system there's a lot of things we've discovered through psychology that I discovered through psychology that I discovered through psychology that I think has trickled down into the culture think has trickled down into the culture think has trickled down into the culture right it in the 60s and 70s it was sort right it in the 60s and 70s it was sort right it in the 60s and 70s it was sort of at the thought level and then of at the thought level and then of at the thought level and then suddenly we started learning oh my suddenly we started learning oh my suddenly we started learning oh my goodness I need to parent my kids goodness I need to parent my kids goodness I need to parent my kids differently I need to think about that differently I need to think about that differently I need to think about that secure attachment I need to be aware of

secure attachment I need to be aware of secure attachment I need to be aware of emotions I need to not be shaming kids emotions I need to not be shaming kids emotions I need to not be shaming kids right and so we're seeing that trickle right and so we're seeing that trickle right and so we're seeing that trickle effect into the culture of really good effect into the culture of really good effect into the culture of really good things right there's a lot of good there things right there's a lot of good there things right there's a lot of good there um that we and we understand trauma um that we and we understand trauma um that we and we understand trauma better we understand the effect on the better we understand the effect on the better we understand the effect on the nervous system and on the self uh we nervous system and on the self uh we nervous system and on the self uh we understand shame better the neurobiology understand shame better the neurobiology understand shame better the neurobiology of Shame the problems with shame and so of Shame the problems with shame and so of Shame the problems with shame and so a lot of this I think is hopeful you a lot of this I think is hopeful you a lot of this I think is hopeful you know again from that therapeutic know again from that therapeutic know again from that therapeutic perspective where we're just more aware perspective where we're just more aware perspective where we're just more aware of the role of anxiety we're more aware of the role of anxiety we're more aware of the role of anxiety we're more aware of some of these terms and so we're of some of these terms and so we're of some of these terms and so we're wanting to utilize these resources that wanting to utilize these resources that wanting to utilize these resources that are available to us therapy is also more are available to us therapy is also more are available to us therapy is also more available online therapy it's it's more available online therapy it's it's more available online therapy it's it's more common it's more prevalent and so some common it's more prevalent and so some common it's more prevalent and so some of that I think we're just seeing the of that I think we're just seeing the of that I think we're just seeing the culture catch up to what's been culture catch up to what's been culture catch up to what's been happening over the last century in the happening over the last century in the happening over the last century in the field um I think where it's become the field um I think where it's become the field um I think where it's become the new new new religion is is sort of where we start to religion is is sort of where we start to religion is is sort of where we start to see this maybe over correction in the see this maybe over correction in the see this maybe over correction in the sense of even as a therapist I'll say to sense of even as a therapist I'll say to sense of even as a therapist I'll say to you Carrie I am keenly aware that I am you Carrie I am keenly aware that I am you Carrie I am keenly aware that I am not a not a not a replacement for belonging I'm not a replacement for belonging I'm not a replacement for belonging I'm not a replacement for a family I'm not a replacement for a family I'm not a replacement for a family I'm not a replacement for a neighborhood for a replacement for a neighborhood for a replacement for a neighborhood for a church community and that while we do church community and that while we do church community and that while we do need focus and attention on the need focus and attention on the need focus and attention on the individual psyche the individual self we individual psyche the individual self we individual psyche the individual self we also need to be in community with others

also need to be in community with others also need to be in community with others and we also need to be in relationship and we also need to be in relationship and we also need to be in relationship with God and so that's where I think with God and so that's where I think with God and so that's where I think there's really an interesting cultural there's really an interesting cultural there's really an interesting cultural moment with this prevalence this moment with this prevalence this moment with this prevalence this skyrocketing of therapy and sort of over skyrocketing of therapy and sort of over skyrocketing of therapy and sort of over here kind of going wait a minute what here kind of going wait a minute what here kind of going wait a minute what happens with the church what happens happens with the church what happens happens with the church what happens there is it now obsolete is it now there is it now obsolete is it now there is it now obsolete is it now irrelevant I would argue no absolutely irrelevant I would argue no absolutely irrelevant I would argue no absolutely not but there is an interesting moment not but there is an interesting moment not but there is an interesting moment that's in front of us I think that's in front of us I think that's in front of us I think collectively okay i' I'd love to play a collectively okay i' I'd love to play a collectively okay i' I'd love to play a little game with you uh and see if little game with you uh and see if little game with you uh and see if you're up for you're up for you're up for it let's let's because you you know it let's let's because you you know it let's let's because you you know you've got training in both of these you've got training in both of these you've got training in both of these areas let's do uh therapy without the areas let's do uh therapy without the areas let's do uh therapy without the church so you think about the rise of church so you think about the rise of church so you think about the rise of secularism someone goes to therapy secularism someone goes to therapy secularism someone goes to therapy they're like yeah I I'm recovering from they're like yeah I I'm recovering from they're like yeah I I'm recovering from trauma I've I I understand that the body trauma I've I I understand that the body trauma I've I I understand that the body keeps score uh I know I'm struggling keeps score uh I know I'm struggling keeps score uh I know I'm struggling with anxiety and depression but like God with anxiety and depression but like God with anxiety and depression but like God is not a part of that equation which is is not a part of that equation which is is not a part of that equation which is a lot of secular therapy right it's like a lot of secular therapy right it's like a lot of secular therapy right it's like okay we're going to do this we're going okay we're going to do this we're going okay we're going to do this we're going to do this without the spiritual to do this without the spiritual to do this without the spiritual component where does that lead what's component where does that lead what's component where does that lead what's what's missing yeah the hyper laser what's missing yeah the hyper laser what's missing yeah the hyper laser focus on the self capital S self leads focus on the self capital S self leads focus on the self capital S self leads ultimately to chaos we we were we cannot ultimately to chaos we we were we cannot ultimately to chaos we we were we cannot exist as a capital S self and you know exist as a capital S self and you know exist as a capital S self and you know listen my first book is a Christian a listen my first book is a Christian a listen my first book is a Christian a theologically based adaptation of a very theologically based adaptation of a very theologically based adaptation of a very popular model of therapy in the culture

popular model of therapy in the culture popular model of therapy in the culture it's called internal family systems ifs it's called internal family systems ifs it's called internal family systems ifs uh you'll hear about it uh probably a uh you'll hear about it uh probably a uh you'll hear about it uh probably a lot of your listeners have heard about lot of your listeners have heard about lot of your listeners have heard about it it's a phenomenal modality it works it it's a phenomenal modality it works it it's a phenomenal modality it works but the model is centered on this idea but the model is centered on this idea but the model is centered on this idea of a capital S self that is the of a capital S self that is the of a capital S self that is the regulating force and you know my regulating force and you know my regulating force and you know my co-author and I were like wow there's a co-author and I were like wow there's a co-author and I were like wow there's a lot about this that works and also lot about this that works and also lot about this that works and also that's a problem because the way that I that's a problem because the way that I that's a problem because the way that I look at it and I base this on jesus' look at it and I base this on jesus' look at it and I base this on jesus' greatest command love the Lord your God greatest command love the Lord your God greatest command love the Lord your God there's three primary relationships that there's three primary relationships that there's three primary relationships that we're responsible for love the Lord your we're responsible for love the Lord your we're responsible for love the Lord your God love others as yourselves now that God love others as yourselves now that God love others as yourselves now that self peace I will say for centuries was self peace I will say for centuries was self peace I will say for centuries was sidelined by a lot of times by religious sidelined by a lot of times by religious sidelined by a lot of times by religious institutions I think that's part of why institutions I think that's part of why institutions I think that's part of why we're seeing the overcorrection that we're seeing the overcorrection that we're seeing the overcorrection that self-pace does matter but it is not to self-pace does matter but it is not to self-pace does matter but it is not to the exclusion of the relation ship with the exclusion of the relation ship with the exclusion of the relation ship with God and the relationship to others all God and the relationship to others all God and the relationship to others all three have to be held in tension so a three have to be held in tension so a three have to be held in tension so a little bit about what I see happening is little bit about what I see happening is little bit about what I see happening is we've overemphasize the self we've we've overemphasize the self we've we've overemphasize the self we've removed it from God and sometimes from removed it from God and sometimes from removed it from God and sometimes from others right I just live in my little others right I just live in my little others right I just live in my little Silo where everything kind of plays to Silo where everything kind of plays to Silo where everything kind of plays to what works for me or doesn't work for me what works for me or doesn't work for me what works for me or doesn't work for me which is not healthy that is not how the which is not healthy that is not how the which is not healthy that is not how the human soul is designed to thrive and human soul is designed to thrive and human soul is designed to thrive and it's not working out so well and I see it's not working out so well and I see it's not working out so well and I see that in numerous ways and so so there that in numerous ways and so so there that in numerous ways and so so there has to be a way to bring that self into has to be a way to bring that self into has to be a way to bring that self into tension into a healthy relationship into tension into a healthy relationship into tension into a healthy relationship into a healthy balance with God and with a healthy balance with God and with a healthy balance with God and with others and that's kind of where I see an others and that's kind of where I see an others and that's kind of where I see an invitation for us as a body of Believers

invitation for us as a body of Believers invitation for us as a body of Believers so you say it leads to chaos so let's so you say it leads to chaos so let's so you say it leads to chaos so let's play that out a little bit all right uh play that out a little bit all right uh play that out a little bit all right uh because I'm it's very interesting I because I'm it's very interesting I because I'm it's very interesting I don't think it's correlative not don't think it's correlative not don't think it's correlative not causitive but uh if you look at the the causitive but uh if you look at the the causitive but uh if you look at the the decline of religion so many other things decline of religion so many other things decline of religion so many other things have risen to fill that vacuum and I have risen to fill that vacuum and I have risen to fill that vacuum and I think you can make a plausible argument think you can make a plausible argument think you can make a plausible argument that therapy is one of them that we know that therapy is one of them that we know that therapy is one of them that we know we're missing something and I'm not we're missing something and I'm not we're missing something and I'm not saying that therapy doesn't add a lot to saying that therapy doesn't add a lot to saying that therapy doesn't add a lot to it I've been in therapy off and on for it I've been in therapy off and on for it I've been in therapy off and on for 20 plus years so I mean I'm you know not 20 plus years so I mean I'm you know not 20 plus years so I mean I'm you know not just the president I'm a client right just the president I'm a client right just the president I'm a client right kind of thing I'm not the president but kind of thing I'm not the president but kind of thing I'm not the president but you know what I mean I I believe in it you know what I mean I I believe in it you know what I mean I I believe in it but if that's all you have what does the but if that's all you have what does the but if that's all you have what does the chaos look like I think that we have to chaos look like I think that we have to chaos look like I think that we have to hold two things in attention there's the hold two things in attention there's the hold two things in attention there's the needs of the self and there's the needs needs of the self and there's the needs needs of the self and there's the needs of the group at its basist form and the of the group at its basist form and the of the group at its basist form and the group might be a church group the group group might be a church group the group group might be a church group the group might be a family the group might be a might be a family the group might be a might be a family the group might be a marriage the group might be a friend marriage the group might be a friend marriage the group might be a friend group we have to hold those two things group we have to hold those two things group we have to hold those two things intention we know from research that we intention we know from research that we intention we know from research that we were not designed to live out of were not designed to live out of were not designed to live out of relationship with other people we have relationship with other people we have relationship with other people we have to live in relationship take out to live in relationship take out to live in relationship take out religion for a minute we just know that religion for a minute we just know that religion for a minute we just know that to be true in order for me to be in to be true in order for me to be in to be true in order for me to be in relationship with you I have to have a relationship with you I have to have a relationship with you I have to have a strong sense of myself and I have to strong sense of myself and I have to strong sense of myself and I have to have an ability to care about to honor have an ability to care about to honor have an ability to care about to honor to respect and to negotiate with to respect and to negotiate with to respect and to negotiate with you right and you and I become greater

you right and you and I become greater you right and you and I become greater than the some of our individual than the some of our individual than the some of our individual selves selves selves so chaos when you ask about chaos if I so chaos when you ask about chaos if I so chaos when you ask about chaos if I am am am primarily only con concerned about what primarily only con concerned about what primarily only con concerned about what is best for me what brings you know what is best for me what brings you know what is best for me what brings you know what is best for me what um are my needs what is best for me what um are my needs what is best for me what um are my needs what are my preferences what are my opinions are my preferences what are my opinions are my preferences what are my opinions and I don't bring that into tension with and I don't bring that into tension with and I don't bring that into tension with someone else with another human with someone else with another human with someone else with another human with another group with a another group with a another group with a collective there is nowhere I can collective there is nowhere I can collective there is nowhere I can ultimately go with that that is an ultimately go with that that is an ultimately go with that that is an endless black hole it it's an endless endless black hole it it's an endless endless black hole it it's an endless black hole of my own whims needs black hole of my own whims needs black hole of my own whims needs impulses desires there's no regulating impulses desires there's no regulating impulses desires there's no regulating force on force on force on that and you know it it just it has to that and you know it it just it has to that and you know it it just it has to be held in tension I think about be held in tension I think about be held in tension I think about marriage or I think about any close marriage or I think about any close marriage or I think about any close friendship where it's like you know friendship where it's like you know friendship where it's like you know there are times when yes my preference there are times when yes my preference there are times when yes my preference is X but because I love this other is X but because I love this other is X but because I love this other person I am going to agree to do why in person I am going to agree to do why in person I am going to agree to do why in this case right I am I'm aware of my own this case right I am I'm aware of my own this case right I am I'm aware of my own preference and also I'm going to set preference and also I'm going to set preference and also I'm going to set that aside in the service of this that aside in the service of this that aside in the service of this relationship because I want this relationship because I want this relationship because I want this relationship to work that applies on a relationship to work that applies on a relationship to work that applies on a macrocosm as well it applies to a macrocosm as well it applies to a macrocosm as well it applies to a community it applies to a country there community it applies to a country there community it applies to a country there have to be sort of group Norms group

have to be sort of group Norms group have to be sort of group Norms group regulating regulating regulating influences that hold us together and influences that hold us together and influences that hold us together and what we're getting at is this whole kind what we're getting at is this whole kind what we're getting at is this whole kind of biblical theme of diversity within of biblical theme of diversity within of biblical theme of diversity within Unity we have to have that unifying Unity we have to have that unifying Unity we have to have that unifying force to bring together the individual force to bring together the individual force to bring together the individual sometimes I think about it almost like sometimes I think about it almost like sometimes I think about it almost like an an an orchestra we each have to play our orchestra we each have to play our orchestra we each have to play our individual role but if I'm so individual role but if I'm so individual role but if I'm so hyperfocused on my own role as the hyperfocused on my own role as the hyperfocused on my own role as the violin that I I just no longer even care violin that I I just no longer even care violin that I I just no longer even care about trying to attune my instrument about trying to attune my instrument about trying to attune my instrument with the other instruments around me I with the other instruments around me I with the other instruments around me I can't create a Melody half or a quarter can't create a Melody half or a quarter can't create a Melody half or a quarter as as as beautiful if I bring my instrument into beautiful if I bring my instrument into beautiful if I bring my instrument into a beautiful Melody with yours and 10 a beautiful Melody with yours and 10 a beautiful Melody with yours and 10 other people and 20 other people and a other people and 20 other people and a other people and 20 other people and a whole nation of other people right so whole nation of other people right so whole nation of other people right so I'm still myself but I'm playing in I'm still myself but I'm playing in I'm still myself but I'm playing in concert with lots of other people and we concert with lots of other people and we concert with lots of other people and we can create something so much better in can create something so much better in can create something so much better in order to do that we have to have some order to do that we have to have some order to do that we have to have some governing forces we have to have some governing forces we have to have some governing forces we have to have some group Norms we have to have a unifying group Norms we have to have a unifying group Norms we have to have a unifying force both things have to be held in force both things have to be held in force both things have to be held in tension that's a great analysis so let's tension that's a great analysis so let's tension that's a great analysis so let's play the other side of the game and I play the other side of the game and I play the other side of the game and I think I think some of us know this from think I think some of us know this from think I think some of us know this from memory too because uh you know I was memory too because uh you know I was memory too because uh you know I was just speaking speaking to a group of just speaking speaking to a group of just speaking speaking to a group of church leaders in England and uh there church leaders in England and uh there church leaders in England and uh there was I don't know 800 a thousand of them was I don't know 800 a thousand of them was I don't know 800 a thousand of them and we were just chatting over the and we were just chatting over the and we were just chatting over the course of an afternoon about mental course of an afternoon about mental course of an afternoon about mental health and burnout and so on and so health and burnout and so on and so health and burnout and so on and so forth and uh the number of times I still forth and uh the number of times I still forth and uh the number of times I still hear like in hear like in hear like in 2024 that there's a stigma about going

2024 that there's a stigma about going 2024 that there's a stigma about going to counseling that there's a stigma in to counseling that there's a stigma in to counseling that there's a stigma in the church so I remember that very the church so I remember that very the church so I remember that very vividly I think it was 2003 the first vividly I think it was 2003 the first vividly I think it was 2003 the first time I went to counseling I had to get time I went to counseling I had to get time I went to counseling I had to get over my own stigma um over my own stigma um over my own stigma um but it's still there so the other side but it's still there so the other side but it's still there so the other side of the game is you know you have therapy of the game is you know you have therapy of the game is you know you have therapy without God but then you have god with without God but then you have god with without God but then you have god with no therapy in other words that's nothing no therapy in other words that's nothing no therapy in other words that's nothing we believe in at all here in the church we believe in at all here in the church we believe in at all here in the church and there's still little pockets where and there's still little pockets where and there's still little pockets where you can find that but it's it's largely you can find that but it's it's largely you can find that but it's it's largely been normalized I think In Our Lifetime been normalized I think In Our Lifetime been normalized I think In Our Lifetime but what happens if you back out of of but what happens if you back out of of but what happens if you back out of of uh therapy and just say no we got to uh therapy and just say no we got to uh therapy and just say no we got to make this all about you know it's all make this all about you know it's all make this all about you know it's all spiritual it's all spiritual yeah that spiritual it's all spiritual yeah that spiritual it's all spiritual yeah that that's equally problematic right and that's equally problematic right and that's equally problematic right and again it goes back to those three again it goes back to those three again it goes back to those three primary relationships God others and primary relationships God others and primary relationships God others and self we have to have a relationship and self we have to have a relationship and self we have to have a relationship and cultivate a relationship with all three cultivate a relationship with all three cultivate a relationship with all three right and if we remove that self piece right and if we remove that self piece right and if we remove that self piece we're at risk for codependency we're at we're at risk for codependency we're at we're at risk for codependency we're at risk for um kind of instead of group risk for um kind of instead of group risk for um kind of instead of group norms and sort of a unifying force group norms and sort of a unifying force group norms and sort of a unifying force group think where I just take on your beliefs think where I just take on your beliefs think where I just take on your beliefs because I don't know how to think because I don't know how to think because I don't know how to think critically for myself we're at risk of critically for myself we're at risk of critically for myself we're at risk of you know High control um where we defer you know High control um where we defer you know High control um where we defer we Outsource our own autonomy and our we Outsource our own autonomy and our we Outsource our own autonomy and our own agency to other people who may or own agency to other people who may or own agency to other people who may or may not have our best interest at heart may not have our best interest at heart may not have our best interest at heart there's a lot of problems with yeah you there's a lot of problems with yeah you there's a lot of problems with yeah you just described a lot of the problems in just described a lot of the problems in just described a lot of the problems in the church right now congratulations the church right now congratulations the church right now congratulations yeah you're right that's a challenge and yeah you're right that's a challenge and yeah you're right that's a challenge and you also write uh you got a section in you also write uh you got a section in you also write uh you got a section in your new book about spiritual bypassing

your new book about spiritual bypassing your new book about spiritual bypassing I I've seen that happen a lot too what I I've seen that happen a lot too what I I've seen that happen a lot too what do you mean by that term and uh what's do you mean by that term and uh what's do you mean by that term and uh what's at stake with it yeah we spiritualize at stake with it yeah we spiritualize at stake with it yeah we spiritualize again if we remove that self peace and again if we remove that self peace and again if we remove that self peace and we think everything is spiritual we we think everything is spiritual we we think everything is spiritual we apply spiritual solutions to problems apply spiritual solutions to problems apply spiritual solutions to problems that are not spiritual and you know we that are not spiritual and you know we that are not spiritual and you know we don't do this so much with medicine don't do this so much with medicine don't do this so much with medicine anymore in the sense of if someone a anymore in the sense of if someone a anymore in the sense of if someone a parishioner were to come and be dealing parishioner were to come and be dealing parishioner were to come and be dealing with cancer yes we might pray for them with cancer yes we might pray for them with cancer yes we might pray for them and also we would work really hard to and also we would work really hard to and also we would work really hard to help connect them to medical care we help connect them to medical care we help connect them to medical care we would understand that and I think in would understand that and I think in would understand that and I think in mental health that's one of the areas mental health that's one of the areas mental health that's one of the areas again where there's this tension where again where there's this tension where again where there's this tension where folks in the last two decades in folks in the last two decades in folks in the last two decades in particular have started to learn oh my particular have started to learn oh my particular have started to learn oh my goodness I have anxiety there's a way goodness I have anxiety there's a way goodness I have anxiety there's a way that my brain functions or there's a way that my brain functions or there's a way that my brain functions or there's a way that my nervous system functions that's that my nervous system functions that's that my nervous system functions that's not my fault and that isn't primarily not my fault and that isn't primarily not my fault and that isn't primarily spiritual at root in fact that there are spiritual at root in fact that there are spiritual at root in fact that there are things I can do and and so then things I can do and and so then things I can do and and so then especially those of us again I think the especially those of us again I think the especially those of us again I think the church is sort of catching up I think church is sort of catching up I think church is sort of catching up I think there's a little bit of a a catching up there's a little bit of a a catching up there's a little bit of a a catching up that the church is doing to the science that the church is doing to the science that the church is doing to the science and to the psychology of some of us even and to the psychology of some of us even and to the psychology of some of us even in the best of homes grew up where it in the best of homes grew up where it in the best of homes grew up where it was like no all of that was spiritual was like no all of that was spiritual was like no all of that was spiritual all of that just pray that away just all of that just pray that away just all of that just pray that away just choose Joy it's it's mind over matter choose Joy it's it's mind over matter choose Joy it's it's mind over matter and it's like well actually it's not and it's like well actually it's not and it's like well actually it's not it's actually something that is living it's actually something that is living it's actually something that is living in my body the pain that I experience is in my body the pain that I experience is in my body the pain that I experience is actually living in my body it's a actually living in my body it's a actually living in my body it's a nervous system response that I actually nervous system response that I actually nervous system response that I actually don't have control over and I have to don't have control over and I have to don't have control over and I have to actually do that deeper work of healing actually do that deeper work of healing actually do that deeper work of healing that so that I can get myself to the that so that I can get myself to the that so that I can get myself to the point of regulating those emotions and

point of regulating those emotions and point of regulating those emotions and so I think that's a little bit of where so I think that's a little bit of where so I think that's a little bit of where the church is catching up to some of us the church is catching up to some of us the church is catching up to some of us you know folks have gotten that you know folks have gotten that you know folks have gotten that different languaging that emphasis to different languaging that emphasis to different languaging that emphasis to understand the root causes of some of understand the root causes of some of understand the root causes of some of these mental illnesses of some of this these mental illnesses of some of this these mental illnesses of some of this these trauma um these behaviors and these trauma um these behaviors and these trauma um these behaviors and these reactions that are rooted in these reactions that are rooted in these reactions that are rooted in trauma that are far less about morality trauma that are far less about morality trauma that are far less about morality have nothing to do with morality or have nothing to do with morality or have nothing to do with morality or spirituality and have a lot to do with spirituality and have a lot to do with spirituality and have a lot to do with our physiology and the neurobiology and our physiology and the neurobiology and our physiology and the neurobiology and how we function and then we're confused how we function and then we're confused how we function and then we're confused there's a lot of dissonance inside we go there's a lot of dissonance inside we go there's a lot of dissonance inside we go to church and we're like but how do I to church and we're like but how do I to church and we're like but how do I assimilate what I'm hearing here with assimilate what I'm hearing here with assimilate what I'm hearing here with what I'm learning here right and so the what I'm learning here right and so the what I'm learning here right and so the spiritual bypassing is where spiritual bypassing is where spiritual bypassing is where sometimes I post about spiritual sometimes I post about spiritual sometimes I post about spiritual bypassing and it always is these are the bypassing and it always is these are the bypassing and it always is these are the posts of mine that go crazy because it's posts of mine that go crazy because it's posts of mine that go crazy because it's it's sort of the difference between just it's sort of the difference between just it's sort of the difference between just let go and let God versus I'm learning let go and let God versus I'm learning let go and let God versus I'm learning to be gentle with to be gentle with to be gentle with myself as I wrestle with some worry or myself as I wrestle with some worry or myself as I wrestle with some worry or you know I'm learning to get the care you know I'm learning to get the care you know I'm learning to get the care that I need as AO you know through this that I need as AO you know through this that I need as AO you know through this experience of depression versus what's experience of depression versus what's experience of depression versus what's wrong with your faith which is a wrong with your faith which is a wrong with your faith which is a spiritualizing of a problem that is in spiritualizing of a problem that is in spiritualizing of a problem that is in fact just a a very real thing that I'm fact just a a very real thing that I'm fact just a a very real thing that I'm working through that has a lot of working through that has a lot of working through that has a lot of different root causes for it so I have different root causes for it so I have different root causes for it so I have been guilty of this in the past and I been guilty of this in the past and I been guilty of this in the past and I hope I'm getting better but I'd love for hope I'm getting better but I'd love for hope I'm getting better but I'd love for you like like probably doing some you like like probably doing some you like like probably doing some spiritual bypassing you know I've told spiritual bypassing you know I've told spiritual bypassing you know I've told people I'm thinking back a few years now people I'm thinking back a few years now people I'm thinking back a few years now you know well you just need to pray

you know well you just need to pray you know well you just need to pray harder and I don't believe that any I harder and I don't believe that any I harder and I don't believe that any I believe you should pray hard I don't believe you should pray hard I don't believe you should pray hard I don't think that's going to solve some of the think that's going to solve some of the think that's going to solve some of the challenges that maybe get presented but challenges that maybe get presented but challenges that maybe get presented but for pastors who are in The Habit like for pastors who are in The Habit like for pastors who are in The Habit like you know you got tens of thousands of you know you got tens of thousands of you know you got tens of thousands of pastors listening right now you know who pastors listening right now you know who pastors listening right now you know who are in the habit of their standard thing are in the habit of their standard thing are in the habit of their standard thing you got to read your Bible more you got you got to read your Bible more you got you got to read your Bible more you got to pray more you just got to have more to pray more you just got to have more to pray more you just got to have more faith you got to believe more you got to faith you got to believe more you got to faith you got to believe more you got to try harder what what are some better try harder what what are some better try harder what what are some better phrases when you're faced with a phrases when you're faced with a phrases when you're faced with a difficult situation because when I look difficult situation because when I look difficult situation because when I look back on it if I had to Exige myself just back on it if I had to Exige myself just back on it if I had to Exige myself just being transparent I probably didn't know being transparent I probably didn't know being transparent I probably didn't know what to say in those situations in the what to say in those situations in the what to say in those situations in the first few years of ministry like I just first few years of ministry like I just first few years of ministry like I just didn't know and I'm like well you know didn't know and I'm like well you know didn't know and I'm like well you know have you tried prayer and then I'm out have you tried prayer and then I'm out have you tried prayer and then I'm out of that conversation into a next one of that conversation into a next one of that conversation into a next one meanwhile you know I'm trying to solve a meanwhile you know I'm trying to solve a meanwhile you know I'm trying to solve a problem that's been going on for 30 problem that's been going on for 30 problem that's been going on for 30 years and listen I pray every day I years and listen I pray every day I years and listen I pray every day I believe in prayer please don't believe in prayer please don't believe in prayer please don't misunderstand but if you're in the habit misunderstand but if you're in the habit misunderstand but if you're in the habit of being a spiritual bypasser pray of being a spiritual bypasser pray of being a spiritual bypasser pray harder you know uh you got to join a harder you know uh you got to join a harder you know uh you got to join a group you you know which I I believe in group you you know which I I believe in group you you know which I I believe in I'm part of a group but uh if we only I'm part of a group but uh if we only I'm part of a group but uh if we only have spiritual answers what would you have spiritual answers what would you have spiritual answers what would you say for that person who every time they say for that person who every time they say for that person who every time they give an answer it tends to be pray give an answer it tends to be pray give an answer it tends to be pray harder believe more have more faith harder believe more have more faith harder believe more have more faith trust more yeah I appreciate you're trust more yeah I appreciate you're trust more yeah I appreciate you're sharing about that personally and I have sharing about that personally and I have sharing about that personally and I have a lot of empathy and compassion for a lot of empathy and compassion for a lot of empathy and compassion for pastors because a lot of that does come pastors because a lot of that does come pastors because a lot of that does come out of I want to help yeah you know at out of I want to help yeah you know at out of I want to help yeah you know at its best that is coming from a place of its best that is coming from a place of its best that is coming from a place of I want to help and I don't know how to I want to help and I don't know how to I want to help and I don't know how to I and this is what's worked for me right

I and this is what's worked for me right I and this is what's worked for me right potentially but I think and I would I potentially but I think and I would I potentially but I think and I would I say this to everybody and I think it say this to everybody and I think it say this to everybody and I think it perhaps particularly applies to a pastor perhaps particularly applies to a pastor perhaps particularly applies to a pastor is getting curious about that is getting curious about that is getting curious about that nervousness around maybe not having the nervousness around maybe not having the nervousness around maybe not having the solution what if my presence my loving solution what if my presence my loving solution what if my presence my loving presence with this person is what this presence with this person is what this presence with this person is what this person needs the most what if my person needs the most what if my person needs the most what if my curiosity is what this person needs the curiosity is what this person needs the curiosity is what this person needs the most tell me more I'm in I'm interested most tell me more I'm in I'm interested most tell me more I'm in I'm interested I care I don't have the solutions I'm I care I don't have the solutions I'm I care I don't have the solutions I'm not sure but I do care and I do want to not sure but I do care and I do want to not sure but I do care and I do want to know more right what if we shift it in know more right what if we shift it in know more right what if we shift it in to a little bit more curiosity that to a little bit more curiosity that to a little bit more curiosity that would be freeing for us I think as would be freeing for us I think as would be freeing for us I think as Leaders as caregivers I know as a Leaders as caregivers I know as a Leaders as caregivers I know as a therapist that's a huge part of our therapist that's a huge part of our therapist that's a huge part of our training right we're we're trying always training right we're we're trying always training right we're we're trying always to get curious I don't necessarily have to get curious I don't necessarily have to get curious I don't necessarily have the answers I'm G to listen I'm going to the answers I'm G to listen I'm going to the answers I'm G to listen I'm going to attune with you and together let's think attune with you and together let's think attune with you and together let's think through together you know what might be through together you know what might be through together you know what might be a next step for you to take and that's a a next step for you to take and that's a a next step for you to take and that's a little bit of the process I talk about little bit of the process I talk about little bit of the process I talk about and I shouldn't feel this way we naming and I shouldn't feel this way we naming and I shouldn't feel this way we naming the facts what are some of the facts the facts what are some of the facts the facts what are some of the facts tell me more we're framing it I'm tell me more we're framing it I'm tell me more we're framing it I'm curious I I want to understand more and curious I I want to understand more and curious I I want to understand more and then yes we will take a brave step then yes we will take a brave step then yes we will take a brave step together there's that sense of being together there's that sense of being together there's that sense of being together of partnership of collaboration together of partnership of collaboration together of partnership of collaboration versus power over right I don't have to versus power over right I don't have to versus power over right I don't have to have the answers I'm not your expert you have the answers I'm not your expert you have the answers I'm not your expert you know I'm not and that that's true in my know I'm not and that that's true in my know I'm not and that that's true in my profession as therapist but it's also profession as therapist but it's also profession as therapist but it's also true I think as a pastor that that's

true I think as a pastor that that's true I think as a pastor that that's relieving I don't have to be the expert relieving I don't have to be the expert relieving I don't have to be the expert in this situation I'm here with you to in this situation I'm here with you to in this situation I'm here with you to ask ask ask questions and so I would say ask a questions and so I would say ask a questions and so I would say ask a question get curious I'm curious and say question get curious I'm curious and say question get curious I'm curious and say right up front I don't have the answers right up front I don't have the answers right up front I don't have the answers I don't know I want to listen I want to I don't know I want to listen I want to I don't know I want to listen I want to hear more and together putting yourself hear more and together putting yourself hear more and together putting yourself as a collaborator versus an expert can as a collaborator versus an expert can as a collaborator versus an expert can be so helpful to the other person and be so helpful to the other person and be so helpful to the other person and also helpful to the leader to the also helpful to the leader to the also helpful to the leader to the pastor that's very helpful and you know pastor that's very helpful and you know pastor that's very helpful and you know I think I'm getting closer to that all I think I'm getting closer to that all I think I'm getting closer to that all the time just being really comfortable the time just being really comfortable the time just being really comfortable saying I don't know or you know what we saying I don't know or you know what we saying I don't know or you know what we should pray about this but I think this should pray about this but I think this should pray about this but I think this probably goes deeper than than just probably goes deeper than than just probably goes deeper than than just having a prayer and maybe you need to having a prayer and maybe you need to having a prayer and maybe you need to talk to somebody but that that's really talk to somebody but that that's really talk to somebody but that that's really good advice so thank you for that I want good advice so thank you for that I want good advice so thank you for that I want to take it from so there's one hand it's to take it from so there's one hand it's to take it from so there's one hand it's the spiritual answer is everything you the spiritual answer is everything you the spiritual answer is everything you just got to pray more on the other hand just got to pray more on the other hand just got to pray more on the other hand I think there's something about the last I think there's something about the last I think there's something about the last five years maybe we all had time during five years maybe we all had time during five years maybe we all had time during lockdown to go read some extra books or lockdown to go read some extra books or lockdown to go read some extra books or whatever but I see a lot of non phds whatever but I see a lot of non phds whatever but I see a lot of non phds like generally educated pastors like generally educated pastors like generally educated pastors who are now quote experts on brain who are now quote experts on brain who are now quote experts on brain trauma or therapy or whatever and it trauma or therapy or whatever and it trauma or therapy or whatever and it always makes me a little bit nervous always makes me a little bit nervous always makes me a little bit nervous just being candid that it's like just being candid that it's like just being candid that it's like sometimes you see people overstepping sometimes you see people overstepping sometimes you see people overstepping into the realm of therapy without the into the realm of therapy without the into the realm of therapy without the training behind it they read a couple of training behind it they read a couple of training behind it they read a couple of good books they've watched some good books they've watched some good books they've watched some documentaries or videos and it's working documentaries or videos and it's working documentaries or videos and it's working its way into books now it's working its its way into books now it's working its its way into books now it's working its way into sermons on a regular basis I

way into sermons on a regular basis I way into sermons on a regular basis I guess my question is how do you know guess my question is how do you know guess my question is how do you know your your your lane you know like how do you stick to lane you know like how do you stick to lane you know like how do you stick to your lane and your expertise when your lane and your expertise when your lane and your expertise when perhaps you're not like for example and perhaps you're not like for example and perhaps you're not like for example and I'll again confession time didn't expect I'll again confession time didn't expect I'll again confession time didn't expect this to be a confession I talk about this to be a confession I talk about this to be a confession I talk about burnout a lot when I'm talking to crowds burnout a lot when I'm talking to crowds burnout a lot when I'm talking to crowds and in my writing I'm like look I'm not and in my writing I'm like look I'm not and in my writing I'm like look I'm not a doctor I'm not a licensed therapist a doctor I'm not a licensed therapist a doctor I'm not a licensed therapist but I've been through this and I've hit but I've been through this and I've hit but I've been through this and I've hit the wall and I've counseled thousands of the wall and I've counseled thousands of the wall and I've counseled thousands of people here are a few things I'm people here are a few things I'm people here are a few things I'm learning and please go see a learning and please go see a learning and please go see a professional so I try to caveat that professional so I try to caveat that professional so I try to caveat that with with when I talk about things like with with when I talk about things like with with when I talk about things like burnout and exhaustion in leadership um burnout and exhaustion in leadership um burnout and exhaustion in leadership um but what would you say to people who are but what would you say to people who are but what would you say to people who are all of a sudden overnight experts on all of a sudden overnight experts on all of a sudden overnight experts on brain trauma and um you know all the brain trauma and um you know all the brain trauma and um you know all the things we need to do with our morning things we need to do with our morning things we need to do with our morning routine that science shows etc etc any routine that science shows etc etc any routine that science shows etc etc any any thoughts if they don't have training any thoughts if they don't have training any thoughts if they don't have training in that area yeah I appreciate your in that area yeah I appreciate your in that area yeah I appreciate your naming that and I appreciate even your naming that and I appreciate even your naming that and I appreciate even your own experience with that because listen own experience with that because listen own experience with that because listen there's there's hard-earned wisdom that there's there's hard-earned wisdom that there's there's hard-earned wisdom that matters and hard-earned wisdom doesn't matters and hard-earned wisdom doesn't matters and hard-earned wisdom doesn't necessarily require a PhD you can have a necessarily require a PhD you can have a necessarily require a PhD you can have a PhD and not have hard earned wisdom so PhD and not have hard earned wisdom so PhD and not have hard earned wisdom so there's the wisdom of the trenches there's the wisdom of the trenches there's the wisdom of the trenches there's the wisdom of a life that is there's the wisdom of a life that is there's the wisdom of a life that is deeply formed and deeply lived in deeply formed and deeply lived in deeply formed and deeply lived in connection with God and in connection connection with God and in connection connection with God and in connection with others so I honor that and I also with others so I honor that and I also with others so I honor that and I also think there is a culture where a lot of think there is a culture where a lot of think there is a culture where a lot of information is not information is not information is not transformation right we can have a lot transformation right we can have a lot transformation right we can have a lot of head knowledge we can have a lot of of head knowledge we can have a lot of of head knowledge we can have a lot of facts we can have a lot of data and have facts we can have a lot of data and have facts we can have a lot of data and have no clue about the deeper work of trans

no clue about the deeper work of trans no clue about the deeper work of trans formation transformation is messy it's formation transformation is messy it's formation transformation is messy it's nuanced there is no one siiz fits-all nuanced there is no one siiz fits-all nuanced there is no one siiz fits-all there is no easy five steps there just there is no easy five steps there just there is no easy five steps there just isn't it doesn't exist you can read the isn't it doesn't exist you can read the isn't it doesn't exist you can read the easy five steps and they can make easy five steps and they can make easy five steps and they can make logical sense but living that out is logical sense but living that out is logical sense but living that out is really complicated and messy and there really complicated and messy and there really complicated and messy and there is no way to actually get that into your is no way to actually get that into your is no way to actually get that into your psyche deep into your soul but through psyche deep into your soul but through psyche deep into your soul but through living it out in the context of real living it out in the context of real living it out in the context of real life relationships and so I think what life relationships and so I think what life relationships and so I think what we do is we deprive ourselves of deep we do is we deprive ourselves of deep we do is we deprive ourselves of deep transformational work right we're just transformational work right we're just transformational work right we're just so quick to I've got the information now so quick to I've got the information now so quick to I've got the information now you know put it back out versus letting you know put it back out versus letting you know put it back out versus letting that information marinate deeply into that information marinate deeply into that information marinate deeply into the soul and into the psyche and and the soul and into the psyche and and the soul and into the psyche and and maybe taking a few years to seeing how maybe taking a few years to seeing how maybe taking a few years to seeing how it really plays itself out in our it really plays itself out in our it really plays itself out in our relationships and and taking our time relationships and and taking our time relationships and and taking our time with that slow nature of growth so some with that slow nature of growth so some with that slow nature of growth so some of the information you see it's not that of the information you see it's not that of the information you see it's not that it's bad it's just not steeped in the it's bad it's just not steeped in the it's bad it's just not steeped in the depth and I think to be honest that's depth and I think to be honest that's depth and I think to be honest that's what our culture is actually hungry for what our culture is actually hungry for what our culture is actually hungry for Is that real evidence especially those Is that real evidence especially those Is that real evidence especially those younger F you know the Gen Z and the younger F you know the Gen Z and the younger F you know the Gen Z and the Millennials of a deeply formed life Millennials of a deeply formed life Millennials of a deeply formed life where the words might even be the same where the words might even be the same where the words might even be the same on some level but the the what we're on some level but the the what we're on some level but the the what we're aware of is the authenticity the Deep aware of is the authenticity the Deep aware of is the authenticity the Deep groundedness the wisdom The Compassion

groundedness the wisdom The Compassion groundedness the wisdom The Compassion the humility of that life that has been the humility of that life that has been the humility of that life that has been deeply formed and deeply transformed I deeply formed and deeply transformed I deeply formed and deeply transformed I think we are so in dire aching hunger think we are so in dire aching hunger think we are so in dire aching hunger for more of that so I think that's what for more of that so I think that's what for more of that so I think that's what we get deprived of in this sort of age we get deprived of in this sort of age we get deprived of in this sort of age of of sort of pop psychology and lots of of of sort of pop psychology and lots of of of sort of pop psychology and lots of information I I my brain gets tired when information I I my brain gets tired when information I I my brain gets tired when I go on social media I see all the memes I go on social media I see all the memes I go on social media I see all the memes and all the stuff especially in and all the stuff especially in and all the stuff especially in Psychology and I I think gosh there's Psychology and I I think gosh there's Psychology and I I think gosh there's some good data here about how am I some good data here about how am I some good data here about how am I actually applying that and letting that actually applying that and letting that actually applying that and letting that change and inform my very real change and inform my very real change and inform my very real life I'll put in a uh a good word for life I'll put in a uh a good word for life I'll put in a uh a good word for what you just said I think going deep is what you just said I think going deep is what you just said I think going deep is becoming a superpower you know I've been becoming a superpower you know I've been becoming a superpower you know I've been thinking a lot this year about zigging thinking a lot this year about zigging thinking a lot this year about zigging when everyone else is zagging and if zag when everyone else is zagging and if zag when everyone else is zagging and if zag is I just learned something and now I'm is I just learned something and now I'm is I just learned something and now I'm going to tell the world and I'm going to going to tell the world and I'm going to going to tell the world and I'm going to be an expert on this and I'm going to do be an expert on this and I'm going to do be an expert on this and I'm going to do I was like oh okay that zagging I think I was like oh okay that zagging I think I was like oh okay that zagging I think I'd like to do some zigging and try to I'd like to do some zigging and try to I'd like to do some zigging and try to to figure out how to go deep on a to figure out how to go deep on a to figure out how to go deep on a subject and how to really let it sink in subject and how to really let it sink in subject and how to really let it sink in and field test it a little bit more Etc and field test it a little bit more Etc and field test it a little bit more Etc so yeah you got countercultural it's so yeah you got countercultural it's so yeah you got countercultural it's very countercultural and I think at the very countercultural and I think at the very countercultural and I think at the end of the day countercultural wins most end of the day countercultural wins most end of the day countercultural wins most of the time it really does like you know of the time it really does like you know of the time it really does like you know I'm not saying you know the culture is I'm not saying you know the culture is I'm not saying you know the culture is all bad or anything but uh I think it's all bad or anything but uh I think it's all bad or anything but uh I think it's it's it's very helpful you got a phrase it's it's very helpful you got a phrase it's it's very helpful you got a phrase in the book I just couldn't let go it's in the book I just couldn't let go it's in the book I just couldn't let go it's called you say compulsive called you say compulsive called you say compulsive availability and when I read that I'm

availability and when I read that I'm availability and when I read that I'm like gosh I think that is a disease for like gosh I think that is a disease for like gosh I think that is a disease for church leaders compulsive availability church leaders compulsive availability church leaders compulsive availability what do you mean by that yeah I see it what do you mean by that yeah I see it what do you mean by that yeah I see it in my own life I went through a season in my own life I went through a season in my own life I went through a season of really detoxing because I became of really detoxing because I became of really detoxing because I became aware of that constant pinging and aware of that constant pinging and aware of that constant pinging and responding um I think it's exacerbated responding um I think it's exacerbated responding um I think it's exacerbated in the hyper age of information I was in the hyper age of information I was in the hyper age of information I was talking with a friend recently about talking with a friend recently about talking with a friend recently about birthdays and I don't mean is I'm I'm so birthdays and I don't mean is I'm I'm so birthdays and I don't mean is I'm I'm so grateful when people textt me on a grateful when people textt me on a grateful when people textt me on a birthday but we were talking about the birthday but we were talking about the birthday but we were talking about the burden of getting you know so now we burden of getting you know so now we burden of getting you know so now we text a friend happy birthday so you text a friend happy birthday so you text a friend happy birthday so you might get or Facebook right you get a might get or Facebook right you get a might get or Facebook right you get a hundred messages and you feel obligated hundred messages and you feel obligated hundred messages and you feel obligated to respond every single one and and I to respond every single one and and I to respond every single one and and I thought I found myself yearning for the thought I found myself yearning for the thought I found myself yearning for the old days of getting a couple of cards in old days of getting a couple of cards in old days of getting a couple of cards in the mail that require no response it's a the mail that require no response it's a the mail that require no response it's a literal gift right and and so I don't literal gift right and and so I don't literal gift right and and so I don't even think it's just social media I even think it's just social media I even think it's just social media I think we're just constantly you know if think we're just constantly you know if think we're just constantly you know if I get a text that that demands an a I get a text that that demands an a I get a text that that demands an a automatic response and I have really automatic response and I have really automatic response and I have really worked in my own life to weed myself and worked in my own life to weed myself and worked in my own life to weed myself and the people in my life from that need for the people in my life from that need for the people in my life from that need for an automatic reply gets at our prior an automatic reply gets at our prior an automatic reply gets at our prior conversation and when you do it it it's conversation and when you do it it it's conversation and when you do it it it's work you know it's Soul work to say I am work you know it's Soul work to say I am work you know it's Soul work to say I am only and truly available in these only and truly available in these only and truly available in these channels and in these ways and at these channels and in these ways and at these channels and in these ways and at these times you know my whole nervous system times you know my whole nervous system times you know my whole nervous system settles in I am going to give you a settles in I am going to give you a settles in I am going to give you a better wiser more authentic more genuine better wiser more authentic more genuine better wiser more authentic more genuine more nourishing

more nourishing more nourishing response which means you're going to response which means you're going to response which means you're going to have to cultivate some patience and have to cultivate some patience and have to cultivate some patience and that's not also going to be bad for that's not also going to be bad for that's not also going to be bad for you right so we have to do our work you right so we have to do our work you right so we have to do our work which means the folks around us are which means the folks around us are which means the folks around us are going to have to do their work to going to have to do their work to going to have to do their work to tolerate the discomfort of a tolerate the discomfort of a tolerate the discomfort of a delay right and there's a lot of deep delay right and there's a lot of deep delay right and there's a lot of deep breaths for all of us as we're re breaths for all of us as we're re breaths for all of us as we're re regulating our nervous systems to a more regulating our nervous systems to a more regulating our nervous systems to a more sustainable pace of life again I think sustainable pace of life again I think sustainable pace of life again I think it's countercultural it can feel in the it's countercultural it can feel in the it's countercultural it can feel in the moment like oh my goodness nobody is moment like oh my goodness nobody is moment like oh my goodness nobody is going to want to come to me anymore or going to want to come to me anymore or going to want to come to me anymore or I'm going to lose some perhaps I'm going to lose some perhaps I'm going to lose some perhaps leadership you know uh Authority or I'm leadership you know uh Authority or I'm leadership you know uh Authority or I'm going to lose you know if you're on going to lose you know if you're on going to lose you know if you're on social medias and you're not responding social medias and you're not responding social medias and you're not responding to people I'm going to lose followers to people I'm going to lose followers to people I'm going to lose followers but I do believe in the long run that but I do believe in the long run that but I do believe in the long run that more grounded present being very mindful more grounded present being very mindful more grounded present being very mindful of your availability when am I available of your availability when am I available of your availability when am I available and when am I not and what channels do I and when am I not and what channels do I and when am I not and what channels do I have to close down to enforce that very have to close down to enforce that very have to close down to enforce that very mindfully in my life will make me not mindfully in my life will make me not mindfully in my life will make me not only a better human but a a better only a better human but a a better only a better human but a a better leader someone will who will actually leader someone will who will actually leader someone will who will actually have more to give and more to say when have more to give and more to say when have more to give and more to say when the time is the time is the time is right it's an interesting observation right it's an interesting observation right it's an interesting observation about birthdays I took my birthday about birthdays I took my birthday about birthdays I took my birthday offline this year I mean I'm sure it's offline this year I mean I'm sure it's offline this year I mean I'm sure it's still available somewhere but like I still available somewhere but like I still available somewhere but like I didn't acknowledge it on social media didn't acknowledge it on social media didn't acknowledge it on social media because it had become the You've Got to because it had become the You've Got to because it had become the You've Got to Now answer Now answer Now answer hundreds of DMS kind of day and I hundreds of DMS kind of day and I hundreds of DMS kind of day and I thought I actually just there's a few

thought I actually just there's a few thought I actually just there's a few people who know it's my birthday they're people who know it's my birthday they're people who know it's my birthday they're my friends they're going to reach out to my friends they're going to reach out to my friends they're going to reach out to me I'm going to spend it with people me I'm going to spend it with people me I'm going to spend it with people close to me and I've I've taken a lot of close to me and I've I've taken a lot of close to me and I've I've taken a lot of the public holidays offline even posting the public holidays offline even posting the public holidays offline even posting on them because I want to savor those as on them because I want to savor those as on them because I want to savor those as personal celebrations not uh with the personal celebrations not uh with the personal celebrations not uh with the people that that I really know you know people that that I really know you know people that that I really know you know yeah um pastoral availability though yeah um pastoral availability though yeah um pastoral availability though like compulsive availability is an issue like compulsive availability is an issue like compulsive availability is an issue for past and we had Cal Newport on and I for past and we had Cal Newport on and I for past and we had Cal Newport on and I kind of ran the problem by him and he kind of ran the problem by him and he kind of ran the problem by him and he had some fascinating things to say but had some fascinating things to say but had some fascinating things to say but I'd love your take Alison so pastors I I'd love your take Alison so pastors I I'd love your take Alison so pastors I mean when I was pastoring at the mean when I was pastoring at the mean when I was pastoring at the beginning you know there was a telephone beginning you know there was a telephone beginning you know there was a telephone and there was an email and that was it and there was an email and that was it and there was an email and that was it and now there's like 17 different and now there's like 17 different and now there's like 17 different inboxes that pastors can be uh you know inboxes that pastors can be uh you know inboxes that pastors can be uh you know hit with and their parishioners don't hit with and their parishioners don't hit with and their parishioners don't know their day off so how would you know their day off so how would you know their day off so how would you advise advise advise pastors and a lot of them really have a pastors and a lot of them really have a pastors and a lot of them really have a desire to please it's like I want to be desire to please it's like I want to be desire to please it's like I want to be there for my church I want to be there there for my church I want to be there there for my church I want to be there for my people and they're trying to get for my people and they're trying to get for my people and they're trying to get a day off they're trying to get a week a day off they're trying to get a week a day off they're trying to get a week at the lake with their family and like at the lake with their family and like at the lake with their family and like they're just their phones blowing up they're just their phones blowing up they're just their phones blowing up what would you say about boundaries for what would you say about boundaries for what would you say about boundaries for pastors who struggle with compulsive pastors who struggle with compulsive pastors who struggle with compulsive availability both the expectation that availability both the expectation that availability both the expectation that they're going to be there and secondly they're going to be there and secondly they're going to be there and secondly their personal desire to not let anybody their personal desire to not let anybody their personal desire to not let anybody down yeah it it I get it it's so real I down yeah it it I get it it's so real I down yeah it it I get it it's so real I would say a couple things one more is would say a couple things one more is would say a couple things one more is caught than taught that's true as a caught than taught that's true as a caught than taught that's true as a parent and I think it's true as a pastor parent and I think it's true as a pastor parent and I think it's true as a pastor there's a way in which you modeling what

there's a way in which you modeling what there's a way in which you modeling what it's like to truly inhabit a it's like to truly inhabit a it's like to truly inhabit a spaciousness a pace of life that is spaciousness a pace of life that is spaciousness a pace of life that is sustainable is the best gift you have to sustainable is the best gift you have to sustainable is the best gift you have to give your congregation is the best gift give your congregation is the best gift give your congregation is the best gift you have to give to the people that you you have to give to the people that you you have to give to the people that you serve they may not see that in the short serve they may not see that in the short serve they may not see that in the short run and you may need to train them right run and you may need to train them right run and you may need to train them right or you know you may need to or you know you may need to or you know you may need to help them understand right that the best help them understand right that the best help them understand right that the best way I can serve you is to stay really way I can serve you is to stay really way I can serve you is to stay really healthy within my own capacity within my healthy within my own capacity within my healthy within my own capacity within my own healthy boundaries and so to reframe own healthy boundaries and so to reframe own healthy boundaries and so to reframe it in your mind from I'm not I'm not it in your mind from I'm not I'm not it in your mind from I'm not I'm not making myself less available I'm not making myself less available I'm not making myself less available I'm not being a worse Pastor I'm not being a being a worse Pastor I'm not being a being a worse Pastor I'm not being a worse friend I'm actually trying to worse friend I'm actually trying to worse friend I'm actually trying to model and show really healthy leadership model and show really healthy leadership model and show really healthy leadership which is the more I am really aware with which is the more I am really aware with which is the more I am really aware with god with with the people in my life that god with with the people in my life that god with with the people in my life that my closest relationships my family my my closest relationships my family my my closest relationships my family my kids my marriage my my closest friends kids my marriage my my closest friends kids my marriage my my closest friends as I am really mindful of that capacity as I am really mindful of that capacity as I am really mindful of that capacity of that spaciousness that I need the of that spaciousness that I need the of that spaciousness that I need the more I model how to live within that in more I model how to live within that in more I model how to live within that in a healthy way the more I am showing and a healthy way the more I am showing and a healthy way the more I am showing and demonstrating a healthier way for you demonstrating a healthier way for you demonstrating a healthier way for you and that can be counterintuitive to our and that can be counterintuitive to our and that can be counterintuitive to our systems we think the best way to help systems we think the best way to help systems we think the best way to help people is to be compulsively available people is to be compulsively available people is to be compulsively available to them right but it's it's and it to them right but it's it's and it to them right but it's it's and it requires that humility that humility of requires that humility that humility of requires that humility that humility of oftentimes I'll say to people you know a oftentimes I'll say to people you know a oftentimes I'll say to people you know a need is not necessarily a call and it

need is not necessarily a call and it need is not necessarily a call and it requires us to put that Holy Spirit Led requires us to put that Holy Spirit Led requires us to put that Holy Spirit Led buffer between us and all the needs buffer between us and all the needs buffer between us and all the needs which forces us to go to God right which forces us to go to God right which forces us to go to God right there's other people out there God I there's other people out there God I there's other people out there God I cannot meet I I talk a lot about guilt cannot meet I I talk a lot about guilt cannot meet I I talk a lot about guilt driven love those inner guilt Trippers driven love those inner guilt Trippers driven love those inner guilt Trippers that a lot of us have that are just that a lot of us have that are just that a lot of us have that are just badgering us to meet all the needs and badgering us to meet all the needs and badgering us to meet all the needs and to frame that guilt as I did I am I to frame that guilt as I did I am I to frame that guilt as I did I am I actually doing something wrong here or actually doing something wrong here or actually doing something wrong here or am I doing something really am I doing something really am I doing something really Brave which is to set myself out of the Brave which is to set myself out of the Brave which is to set myself out of the equation for a second and say God these equation for a second and say God these equation for a second and say God these are my limitations you are God I am not are my limitations you are God I am not are my limitations you are God I am not this is what I need to do to be healthy this is what I need to do to be healthy this is what I need to do to be healthy before you I believe this is the best before you I believe this is the best before you I believe this is the best gift I have to give other people it's a gift I have to give other people it's a gift I have to give other people it's a real reframe that we have to do inside real reframe that we have to do inside real reframe that we have to do inside of ourselves but again I think it's of ourselves but again I think it's of ourselves but again I think it's counterculture and I think think it's counterculture and I think think it's counterculture and I think think it's really solid healthy really solid healthy really solid healthy leadership all right well you open your leadership all right well you open your leadership all right well you open your book I shouldn't feel this way talking book I shouldn't feel this way talking book I shouldn't feel this way talking about the mental game and our thoughts about the mental game and our thoughts about the mental game and our thoughts and I thought it was really interesting and I thought it was really interesting and I thought it was really interesting because I don't see a lot written about because I don't see a lot written about because I don't see a lot written about this but you talk about the Escape that this but you talk about the Escape that this but you talk about the Escape that a lot of people have like what would my a lot of people have like what would my a lot of people have like what would my life be if I wasn't in this job what if life be if I wasn't in this job what if life be if I wasn't in this job what if I just quit Ministry tomorrow like so I just quit Ministry tomorrow like so I just quit Ministry tomorrow like so many pastors I've talked to have dream many pastors I've talked to have dream many pastors I've talked to have dream jobs and their dream job could be I'm jobs and their dream job could be I'm jobs and their dream job could be I'm Lawns for a living or I stack boxes in a Lawns for a living or I stack boxes in a Lawns for a living or I stack boxes in a warehouse or you know I'm doing warehouse or you know I'm doing warehouse or you know I'm doing something else with my life it's not something else with my life it's not something else with my life it's not it's just like this is hard I can it's just like this is hard I can it's just like this is hard I can imagine something else um you talk about

imagine something else um you talk about imagine something else um you talk about a different life a different partner a a different life a different partner a a different life a different partner a different spouse a different reality uh different spouse a different reality uh different spouse a different reality uh I think a lot of us have been caught up I think a lot of us have been caught up I think a lot of us have been caught up in those thoughts from time to time in those thoughts from time to time in those thoughts from time to time um why is that normal or abnormal it was um why is that normal or abnormal it was um why is that normal or abnormal it was really interesting to see someone name really interesting to see someone name really interesting to see someone name it it's like oh you know okay so it it's like oh you know okay so it it's like oh you know okay so I think it's very normal I think most I think it's very normal I think most I think it's very normal I think most people have some form of escape artist people have some form of escape artist people have some form of escape artist inner escape artist in Her Fantasy Life inner escape artist in Her Fantasy Life inner escape artist in Her Fantasy Life in Her what if my life could be and I in Her what if my life could be and I in Her what if my life could be and I think we don't want to shame ourselves think we don't want to shame ourselves think we don't want to shame ourselves for that I think for that I think for that I think shame makes it worse when we shame shame makes it worse when we shame shame makes it worse when we shame ourselves from those parts of ourselves ourselves from those parts of ourselves ourselves from those parts of ourselves we cut ourselves off from healing that we cut ourselves off from healing that we cut ourselves off from healing that we need I think it's a cue I think those we need I think it's a cue I think those we need I think it's a cue I think those things are cues to get curious about things are cues to get curious about things are cues to get curious about that's a big theme in all my work get I that's a big theme in all my work get I that's a big theme in all my work get I wonder what that's about yeah you know wonder what that's about yeah you know wonder what that's about yeah you know because I also almost always there's because I also almost always there's because I also almost always there's another conflicting thought but I I love another conflicting thought but I I love another conflicting thought but I I love my wife or I love my spouse or I I want my wife or I love my spouse or I I want my wife or I love my spouse or I I want to do this work so there's a couple of to do this work so there's a couple of to do this work so there's a couple of things going on here again to the whole things going on here again to the whole things going on here again to the whole theme of this it's a cue to slow theme of this it's a cue to slow theme of this it's a cue to slow ourselves down and give ourselves a ourselves down and give ourselves a ourselves down and give ourselves a little bit more spaciousness it's a cue little bit more spaciousness it's a cue little bit more spaciousness it's a cue that maybe there's another part of us that maybe there's another part of us that maybe there's another part of us that is hurting or is overwhelmed or is that is hurting or is overwhelmed or is that is hurting or is overwhelmed or is anxious you know or is feeling overtaxed anxious you know or is feeling overtaxed anxious you know or is feeling overtaxed or unseen or invisible or unappreciated or unseen or invisible or unappreciated or unseen or invisible or unappreciated and that part of us needs attention and and that part of us needs attention and and that part of us needs attention and care it doesn't need to be sidelined or care it doesn't need to be sidelined or care it doesn't need to be sidelined or shamed or cut off from ourselves and so shamed or cut off from ourselves and so shamed or cut off from ourselves and so it really is you know again to go back

it really is you know again to go back it really is you know again to go back to our original conversation the self to our original conversation the self to our original conversation the self this relationship we have with our self this relationship we have with our self this relationship we have with our self is so important not at the exclusion of is so important not at the exclusion of is so important not at the exclusion of God or others but it's a cue about the God or others but it's a cue about the God or others but it's a cue about the relationship that's going on inside of relationship that's going on inside of relationship that's going on inside of me some part of me is resorting an awful me some part of me is resorting an awful me some part of me is resorting an awful lot to a Fantasy Life some part of me is lot to a Fantasy Life some part of me is lot to a Fantasy Life some part of me is resorting an awful lot I need to name resorting an awful lot I need to name resorting an awful lot I need to name that without shame slow things down get that without shame slow things down get that without shame slow things down get curious about that because I don't want curious about that because I don't want curious about that because I don't want that to take me over I also want to that to take me over I also want to that to take me over I also want to understand the information or the hurt understand the information or the hurt understand the information or the hurt or the ache that is underneath or the ache that is underneath or the ache that is underneath that so how do you know it is normal I that so how do you know it is normal I that so how do you know it is normal I guess you're saying for people to have guess you're saying for people to have guess you're saying for people to have it how do you know is there a level at it how do you know is there a level at it how do you know is there a level at which it's like you're thinking about it which it's like you're thinking about it which it's like you're thinking about it every day or you're thinking about it every day or you're thinking about it every day or you're thinking about it too often where you really have to take too often where you really have to take too often where you really have to take action on it and do something about it action on it and do something about it action on it and do something about it like any idea on that yeah I think when like any idea on that yeah I think when like any idea on that yeah I think when when that part of us gets extreme it when that part of us gets extreme it when that part of us gets extreme it could be numbing or distracting or could be numbing or distracting or could be numbing or distracting or fantasizing or trying to escape that fantasizing or trying to escape that fantasizing or trying to escape that part of us gets extreme when we are part of us gets extreme when we are part of us gets extreme when we are doing things we feel like we shouldn't doing things we feel like we shouldn't doing things we feel like we shouldn't be doing number one and that's a cue be doing number one and that's a cue be doing number one and that's a cue that it's out of whack it's not just a that it's out of whack it's not just a that it's out of whack it's not just a fleeting thought or a fleeting moment fleeting thought or a fleeting moment fleeting thought or a fleeting moment then pretty quickly we go oh gosh you then pretty quickly we go oh gosh you then pretty quickly we go oh gosh you know I I love this life you know it's know I I love this life you know it's know I I love this life you know it's hard but I love it right hard but I love it right hard but I love it right that's normal um when it becomes chronic that's normal um when it becomes chronic that's normal um when it becomes chronic when we can't come out of it when we when we can't come out of it when we when we can't come out of it when we find ourselves getting resentful about find ourselves getting resentful about find ourselves getting resentful about the very people we're trying to serve the very people we're trying to serve the very people we're trying to serve that's a that's a pretty big cue you that's a that's a pretty big cue you that's a that's a pretty big cue you know and so that there's that escape and know and so that there's that escape and know and so that there's that escape and then there's that resentment and it's then there's that resentment and it's then there's that resentment and it's not going away or there's that escape

not going away or there's that escape not going away or there's that escape and there's that depression and it's not and there's that depression and it's not and there's that depression and it's not going away we don't wake up after a good going away we don't wake up after a good going away we don't wake up after a good night's sleep feeling more refreshed night's sleep feeling more refreshed night's sleep feeling more refreshed more invigorated right it's there day more invigorated right it's there day more invigorated right it's there day after day after day so it how it's after day after day so it how it's after day after day so it how it's manifesting in our behaviors and then manifesting in our behaviors and then manifesting in our behaviors and then and the consistency and chronic nature and the consistency and chronic nature and the consistency and chronic nature of it over time that's where it gets of it over time that's where it gets of it over time that's where it gets more serious where we might want to talk more serious where we might want to talk more serious where we might want to talk to a therapist we might want to name it to a therapist we might want to name it to a therapist we might want to name it in a safe in a safe in a safe place no that's very very helpful so um place no that's very very helpful so um place no that's very very helpful so um Craig relle says your life goes in the Craig relle says your life goes in the Craig relle says your life goes in the direction of your strongest thoughts um direction of your strongest thoughts um direction of your strongest thoughts um how like how do you hang on to you how like how do you hang on to you how like how do you hang on to you you've got some cognitive you've got some cognitive you've got some cognitive dissonance um and I again I just want to dissonance um and I again I just want to dissonance um and I again I just want to drill down a little bit more on that drill down a little bit more on that drill down a little bit more on that that uh like how much cognitive that uh like how much cognitive that uh like how much cognitive dissonance between what you know and dissonance between what you know and dissonance between what you know and what you believe and what you're feeling what you believe and what you're feeling what you believe and what you're feeling is normative for leaders because I have is normative for leaders because I have is normative for leaders because I have seen this come up again and again in um seen this come up again and again in um seen this come up again and again in um pastors I think honestly it's in pastors I think honestly it's in pastors I think honestly it's in business leadership it's probably just business leadership it's probably just business leadership it's probably just uh natural to Being Human Etc but when uh natural to Being Human Etc but when uh natural to Being Human Etc but when you have that kind of cognitive you have that kind of cognitive you have that kind of cognitive dissonance not necessarily even in the dissonance not necessarily even in the dissonance not necessarily even in the direction of an escape life uh but direction of an escape life uh but direction of an escape life uh but something else something else something else where like what is normative what is not where like what is normative what is not where like what is normative what is not normative do you mean something I think normative do you mean something I think normative do you mean something I think there are a million ways to apply this there are a million ways to apply this there are a million ways to apply this but do you mean something like if you're but do you mean something like if you're but do you mean something like if you're a pastor and you're pastoring someone a pastor and you're pastoring someone a pastor and you're pastoring someone and you're maybe preaching a message and and you're maybe preaching a message and and you're maybe preaching a message and you don't actually you're struggling you don't actually you're struggling you don't actually you're struggling with doubt or you're not you're you're with doubt or you're not you're you're with doubt or you're not you're you're struggling with unforgiveness you're struggling with unforgiveness you're struggling with unforgiveness you're actually struggling with something

actually struggling with something actually struggling with something yourself even as you're trying to teach yourself even as you're trying to teach yourself even as you're trying to teach other people about a concept something other people about a concept something other people about a concept something like that yeah or you're like half like that yeah or you're like half like that yeah or you're like half engaged in your job you know you should engaged in your job you know you should engaged in your job you know you should be more grateful there's nothing quote be more grateful there's nothing quote be more grateful there's nothing quote wrong but you're just sort of struggling wrong but you're just sort of struggling wrong but you're just sort of struggling where your thought life is not lining up where your thought life is not lining up where your thought life is not lining up with uh your real life yeah I think it's with uh your real life yeah I think it's with uh your real life yeah I think it's completely normal I think pastors are completely normal I think pastors are completely normal I think pastors are humans like anybody else as a therapist humans like anybody else as a therapist humans like anybody else as a therapist I can speak to the dissonants I tried to I can speak to the dissonants I tried to I can speak to the dissonants I tried to show it throughout the book you know show it throughout the book you know show it throughout the book you know even as a therapist a client will tell even as a therapist a client will tell even as a therapist a client will tell me something and I'll have conflicting me something and I'll have conflicting me something and I'll have conflicting thoughts about it um I think the more thoughts about it um I think the more thoughts about it um I think the more we're aware of the dissonance the more we're aware of the dissonance the more we're aware of the dissonance the more we're aware of it again without shame we're aware of it again without shame we're aware of it again without shame the more we're going to be healthy in the more we're going to be healthy in the more we're going to be healthy in the dissonance I think we all experience the dissonance I think we all experience the dissonance I think we all experience it on multiple levels it's part of the it on multiple levels it's part of the it on multiple levels it's part of the human condition you know it's part of human condition you know it's part of human condition you know it's part of the awareness of you know we have those the awareness of you know we have those the awareness of you know we have those moments of flow where we are just in it moments of flow where we are just in it moments of flow where we are just in it with someone and we're aware of the with someone and we're aware of the with someone and we're aware of the spirit we're aware where everything is spirit we're aware where everything is spirit we're aware where everything is aligning and we have those moments but I aligning and we have those moments but I aligning and we have those moments but I think those moments are the exception think those moments are the exception think those moments are the exception not the norm and it's wonderful when we not the norm and it's wonderful when we not the norm and it's wonderful when we have those moments if you look at an have those moments if you look at an have those moments if you look at an athlete right they they'll say yes I get athlete right they they'll say yes I get athlete right they they'll say yes I get those moments of flow and a lot of it is those moments of flow and a lot of it is those moments of flow and a lot of it is just grit it's persevering and so I just grit it's persevering and so I just grit it's persevering and so I think it's the same with any leader we think it's the same with any leader we think it's the same with any leader we get those moments that are amazing and a get those moments that are amazing and a get those moments that are amazing and a lot of it is okay I'm showing up here lot of it is okay I'm showing up here lot of it is okay I'm showing up here aware that a part of me is distracted a aware that a part of me is distracted a aware that a part of me is distracted a part of me isn't here and the more we're part of me isn't here and the more we're part of me isn't here and the more we're actually aware of that dissonance we

actually aware of that dissonance we actually aware of that dissonance we don't have to fix it there's an don't have to fix it there's an don't have to fix it there's an authenticity in that there's an authenticity in that there's an authenticity in that there's an authenticity even if it's internal even authenticity even if it's internal even authenticity even if it's internal even if we're not saying it to the other if we're not saying it to the other if we're not saying it to the other person even if we're saying you know uh person even if we're saying you know uh person even if we're saying you know uh even internally we're like I'm I'm even internally we're like I'm I'm even internally we're like I'm I'm giving my best to this person even giving my best to this person even giving my best to this person even though I'm aware that I'm also really though I'm aware that I'm also really though I'm aware that I'm also really tired today I'm also really overwhelmed tired today I'm also really overwhelmed tired today I'm also really overwhelmed today there's a a compassion that you today there's a a compassion that you today there's a a compassion that you have toward yourself God knows that um have toward yourself God knows that um have toward yourself God knows that um and and there's a way in which you're and and there's a way in which you're and and there's a way in which you're showing up more authentically even by showing up more authentically even by showing up more authentically even by just honoring that within yourself so I just honoring that within yourself so I just honoring that within yourself so I think it's very common I think it's very think it's very common I think it's very think it's very common I think it's very normal I think where it gets abnormal is normal I think where it gets abnormal is normal I think where it gets abnormal is when we try to shove it aside where we when we try to shove it aside where we when we try to shove it aside where we try to pretend like it's not there when try to pretend like it's not there when try to pretend like it's not there when we try to put put put ourselves out we try to put put put ourselves out we try to put put put ourselves out there as the hero as the expert as the there as the hero as the expert as the there as the hero as the expert as the person who always has it together person who always has it together person who always has it together I think that's where problems arise not I think that's where problems arise not I think that's where problems arise not in the experience of dissonance in and in the experience of dissonance in and in the experience of dissonance in and of of of itself so You' mentioned shame a number itself so You' mentioned shame a number itself so You' mentioned shame a number of times so far in our conversation and of times so far in our conversation and of times so far in our conversation and I want to spend a minute on that because I want to spend a minute on that because I want to spend a minute on that because if there's one thing we're really good if there's one thing we're really good if there's one thing we're really good at in the church it's shaming others and at in the church it's shaming others and at in the church it's shaming others and shaming ourselves we do a good job and shaming ourselves we do a good job and shaming ourselves we do a good job and yet we sing about you know my shame was yet we sing about you know my shame was yet we sing about you know my shame was nailed to the cross we we so we believe nailed to the cross we we so we believe nailed to the cross we we so we believe that we believe that there shouldn't be that we believe that there shouldn't be that we believe that there shouldn't be shame but shame is something so many shame but shame is something so many shame but shame is something so many people struggle with particularly in a people struggle with particularly in a people struggle with particularly in a Christian or religious context shame is Christian or religious context shame is Christian or religious context shame is so huge so if we're not to shame so huge so if we're not to shame so huge so if we're not to shame ourselves for that what do you do ourselves for that what do you do ourselves for that what do you do instead like what is a good healthy instead like what is a good healthy instead like what is a good healthy substitute for shame yeah that's a great substitute for shame yeah that's a great substitute for shame yeah that's a great question so that's this is an area where question so that's this is an area where question so that's this is an area where I think a lot of the secular uh research

I think a lot of the secular uh research I think a lot of the secular uh research and the psychology around shame has and the psychology around shame has and the psychology around shame has really been helpful in the sense of really been helpful in the sense of really been helpful in the sense of there's a great book by Kurt Thompson a there's a great book by Kurt Thompson a there's a great book by Kurt Thompson a good friend of mine um the soul of shame good friend of mine um the soul of shame good friend of mine um the soul of shame that really gets at the neurobiology that really gets at the neurobiology that really gets at the neurobiology shame from a theological perspective shame from a theological perspective shame from a theological perspective it's a fantastic book that I would it's a fantastic book that I would it's a fantastic book that I would encourage any Pastor to read and Kurt encourage any Pastor to read and Kurt encourage any Pastor to read and Kurt refers to shame as Evil's vector and I refers to shame as Evil's vector and I refers to shame as Evil's vector and I really tend to agree with him I think really tend to agree with him I think really tend to agree with him I think shame is this whole body neurological shame is this whole body neurological shame is this whole body neurological feeling of I I am not worthy to exist on feeling of I I am not worthy to exist on feeling of I I am not worthy to exist on this planet I should be swallowed up and this planet I should be swallowed up and this planet I should be swallowed up and die it is vicious and it's whole body die it is vicious and it's whole body die it is vicious and it's whole body there's a neurobiology of it that he there's a neurobiology of it that he there's a neurobiology of it that he lays out that is just powerful and and lays out that is just powerful and and lays out that is just powerful and and you know you read it and you're like you know you read it and you're like you know you read it and you're like yeah yeah yeah that's shame and it is not there's not that's shame and it is not there's not that's shame and it is not there's not truth in it there's there's not and and truth in it there's there's not and and truth in it there's there's not and and and I think there's something to it that and I think there's something to it that and I think there's something to it that it really is the the tool that the enemy it really is the the tool that the enemy it really is the the tool that the enemy of our soul uses to shame us right to of our soul uses to shame us right to of our soul uses to shame us right to keep us away from other people right keep us away from other people right keep us away from other people right shame keeps us we want to go crawl under shame keeps us we want to go crawl under shame keeps us we want to go crawl under a rock and hide it doesn't it doesn't a rock and hide it doesn't it doesn't a rock and hide it doesn't it doesn't turn us toward other people it doesn't turn us toward other people it doesn't turn us toward other people it doesn't turn us toward God it it turns us inward turn us toward God it it turns us inward turn us toward God it it turns us inward you know to to just CW and it's it's not you know to to just CW and it's it's not you know to to just CW and it's it's not constructive right and I think that constructive right and I think that constructive right and I think that understanding of Shame has been a real understanding of Shame has been a real understanding of Shame has been a real contri bution um B Brown writes a lot contri bution um B Brown writes a lot contri bution um B Brown writes a lot about shame in a way that has permeated about shame in a way that has permeated about shame in a way that has permeated the culture I think in such a helpful the culture I think in such a helpful the culture I think in such a helpful way right and so I think again for those way right and so I think again for those way right and so I think again for those of us in church communities you're of us in church communities you're of us in church communities you're you're asking a great question so what you're asking a great question so what you're asking a great question so what well but wait a minute we do need to well but wait a minute we do need to well but wait a minute we do need to feel conviction we do need to feel that feel conviction we do need to feel that feel conviction we do need to feel that sense of oh I've done something wrong sense of oh I've done something wrong sense of oh I've done something wrong and what I would argue what I try to

and what I would argue what I try to and what I would argue what I try to argue in the book is when we name we argue in the book is when we name we argue in the book is when we name we become people who can name what's true become people who can name what's true become people who can name what's true without shame we have so much more power without shame we have so much more power without shame we have so much more power including in myself right so I might including in myself right so I might including in myself right so I might have that feeling of a little bit of have that feeling of a little bit of have that feeling of a little bit of shame or feeling of ooh guilt or that shame or feeling of ooh guilt or that shame or feeling of ooh guilt or that feeling of the Sting the prick of a feeling of the Sting the prick of a feeling of the Sting the prick of a conscience we want that right we want conscience we want that right we want conscience we want that right we want that this is why guilt is such a guilt that this is why guilt is such a guilt that this is why guilt is such a guilt is an emotion it we have to frame that is an emotion it we have to frame that is an emotion it we have to frame that guilt though right we have to be able to guilt though right we have to be able to guilt though right we have to be able to keep that guilt right so it's it's keep that guilt right so it's it's keep that guilt right so it's it's almost like you're trying to parse out almost like you're trying to parse out almost like you're trying to parse out okay what's the actual thing the okay what's the actual thing the okay what's the actual thing the conviction the Holy Spirit leg conviction the Holy Spirit leg conviction the Holy Spirit leg conviction removing that shame removing conviction removing that shame removing conviction removing that shame removing that shame from it this this is what's that shame from it this this is what's that shame from it this this is what's true in this moment I yelled at my kids true in this moment I yelled at my kids true in this moment I yelled at my kids I yelled at my kids I want to shame I yelled at my kids I want to shame I yelled at my kids I want to shame myself for that I want to just swallow myself for that I want to just swallow myself for that I want to just swallow up in a whole but but if I can actually up in a whole but but if I can actually up in a whole but but if I can actually remove the shame and this is this takes remove the shame and this is this takes remove the shame and this is this takes holy spirit-led skills sometimes I call holy spirit-led skills sometimes I call holy spirit-led skills sometimes I call it core strength versus big biceps right it core strength versus big biceps right it core strength versus big biceps right this is core strength it's sitting with this is core strength it's sitting with this is core strength it's sitting with the the shame without taking it in the the shame without taking it in the the shame without taking it in becoming aware of it while becoming aware of it while becoming aware of it while simultaneously also honoring the truth simultaneously also honoring the truth simultaneously also honoring the truth of the con I shouldn't have done that I of the con I shouldn't have done that I of the con I shouldn't have done that I wish I had I just lied to that person's wish I had I just lied to that person's wish I had I just lied to that person's face what was going on right without the face what was going on right without the face what was going on right without the shame just with the truth and this is a shame just with the truth and this is a shame just with the truth and this is a lost art in our culture today right lost art in our culture today right lost art in our culture today right because we throw out the conviction with because we throw out the conviction with because we throw out the conviction with the shame but we're trying to parse out the shame but we're trying to parse out the shame but we're trying to parse out two very different things I did do this two very different things I did do this two very different things I did do this thing I am feeling this way I wish I

thing I am feeling this way I wish I thing I am feeling this way I wish I didn't I am it doesn't mean that I am a didn't I am it doesn't mean that I am a didn't I am it doesn't mean that I am a horrible human being that should be horrible human being that should be horrible human being that should be thrown off the face of the planet it thrown off the face of the planet it thrown off the face of the planet it means something hard is happening and I means something hard is happening and I means something hard is happening and I actually need to turn towards safe actually need to turn towards safe actually need to turn towards safe people to talk about it because shame people to talk about it because shame people to talk about it because shame dies in the context of loving Community dies in the context of loving Community dies in the context of loving Community right and so it's huge in the church I right and so it's huge in the church I right and so it's huge in the church I think the more we can remove shame and think the more we can remove shame and think the more we can remove shame and and turn toward each other's in the pain and turn toward each other's in the pain and turn toward each other's in the pain of our Humanity in the pain of the of our Humanity in the pain of the of our Humanity in the pain of the things we get wrong we are going to be things we get wrong we are going to be things we get wrong we are going to be so much more equipped to grow and and so much more equipped to grow and and so much more equipped to grow and and toward that transformation thing we toward that transformation thing we toward that transformation thing we talked about right versus the the quick talked about right versus the the quick talked about right versus the the quick memes the the real memes the the real memes the the real transformation okay I just ordered the transformation okay I just ordered the transformation okay I just ordered the soul of Shame I've heard so much about soul of Shame I've heard so much about soul of Shame I've heard so much about that book and uh I've so many mutual that book and uh I've so many mutual that book and uh I've so many mutual friends who know Kurt I'll have to get friends who know Kurt I'll have to get friends who know Kurt I'll have to get him on the show that would be great him on the show that would be great him on the show that would be great that'll be fantastic so I've heard from that'll be fantastic so I've heard from that'll be fantastic so I've heard from so many of my friends um thank you that so many of my friends um thank you that so many of my friends um thank you that was really helpful and I think the was really helpful and I think the was really helpful and I think the Insight you know there is you're right Insight you know there is you're right Insight you know there is you're right shame does make you Turtle you just like shame does make you Turtle you just like shame does make you Turtle you just like go inside and then you never deal with go inside and then you never deal with go inside and then you never deal with the issue you just eventually get over the issue you just eventually get over the issue you just eventually get over it and then you do itly again and it it and then you do itly again and it it and then you do itly again and it gets worse and you know but it's like gets worse and you know but it's like gets worse and you know but it's like why do I do that like get curious about why do I do that like get curious about why do I do that like get curious about yourself I love that that's fantastic so yourself I love that that's fantastic so yourself I love that that's fantastic so in your book you've got a frame um and in your book you've got a frame um and in your book you've got a frame um and you really frame a reality can you walk you really frame a reality can you walk you really frame a reality can you walk us through it you've got like this us through it you've got like this us through it you've got like this three-step process and everything and three-step process and everything and three-step process and everything and just give us the model and then I want just give us the model and then I want just give us the model and then I want to work through a couple of different to work through a couple of different to work through a couple of different issues with it yeah what I've noticed in

issues with it yeah what I've noticed in issues with it yeah what I've noticed in years of clinical practice uh working years of clinical practice uh working years of clinical practice uh working with leaders working with Ministry with leaders working with Ministry with leaders working with Ministry leaders working with clients working leaders working with clients working leaders working with clients working with myself is we we need to be able to with myself is we we need to be able to with myself is we we need to be able to name kind of what I'm saying we have to name kind of what I'm saying we have to name kind of what I'm saying we have to be able to name what's hard without be able to name what's hard without be able to name what's hard without shame whether that's an emotion inside shame whether that's an emotion inside shame whether that's an emotion inside of myself I'm angry I'm burnt out this of myself I'm angry I'm burnt out this of myself I'm angry I'm burnt out this is what's is what's is what's true we the things that keep us from true we the things that keep us from true we the things that keep us from naming accurately are shame and also naming accurately are shame and also naming accurately are shame and also another piece of it is I can't fix it I another piece of it is I can't fix it I another piece of it is I can't fix it I don't want to name something that I don't want to name something that I don't want to name something that I can't fix oh you're into leader poison can't fix oh you're into leader poison can't fix oh you're into leader poison now it's like that's what we do we fix now it's like that's what we do we fix now it's like that's what we do we fix things right so I'm not gonna name it things right so I'm not gonna name it things right so I'm not gonna name it unless I can immediately fix it but unless I can immediately fix it but unless I can immediately fix it but sometimes the naming takes a minute and sometimes the naming takes a minute and sometimes the naming takes a minute and so we want to jump from we want to name so we want to jump from we want to name so we want to jump from we want to name something and then fix it right and so something and then fix it right and so something and then fix it right and so what I started and I just see this all what I started and I just see this all what I started and I just see this all the time with people and so I'm always the time with people and so I'm always the time with people and so I'm always slowing people down could we just name slowing people down could we just name slowing people down could we just name it without jumping to fixing it well it without jumping to fixing it well it without jumping to fixing it well then we need an intermediary step and then we need an intermediary step and then we need an intermediary step and this is the step I call Framing and I this is the step I call Framing and I this is the step I call Framing and I think it's probably the most important think it's probably the most important think it's probably the most important step and the least glamorous step the step and the least glamorous step the step and the least glamorous step the least the thing people want to talk least the thing people want to talk least the thing people want to talk about the least we want to name it and about the least we want to name it and about the least we want to name it and then give ourselves a minute depending then give ourselves a minute depending then give ourselves a minute depending on what's the nature of the problem to on what's the nature of the problem to on what's the nature of the problem to frame it and framing is that work of frame it and framing is that work of frame it and framing is that work of deeper reflection looking at it deeper reflection looking at it deeper reflection looking at it examining it from different angles examining it from different angles examining it from different angles what's really happening here you know what's really happening here you know what's really happening here you know you you use the examp we I use the you you use the examp we I use the you you use the examp we I use the example in the book of anger you know example in the book of anger you know example in the book of anger you know I'm so mad at this person right I need I'm so mad at this person right I need I'm so mad at this person right I need to just tell him where to go or what to to just tell him where to go or what to to just tell him where to go or what to do or how to you right that's the but do or how to you right that's the but do or how to you right that's the but what if the frame is I'm so mad at this

what if the frame is I'm so mad at this what if the frame is I'm so mad at this person and really what's happening is person and really what's happening is person and really what's happening is they haven't done anything wrong I'm they haven't done anything wrong I'm they haven't done anything wrong I'm completely overwhelmed Med and they just completely overwhelmed Med and they just completely overwhelmed Med and they just dropped a text into my day that I can't dropped a text into my day that I can't dropped a text into my day that I can't deal with but it's not their fault deal with but it's not their fault deal with but it's not their fault that's a very different frame that that's a very different frame that that's a very different frame that requires a very different course of requires a very different course of requires a very different course of action and so that framing step is the action and so that framing step is the action and so that framing step is the step of all this work that we're talking step of all this work that we're talking step of all this work that we're talking about of being spacious giving ourselves about of being spacious giving ourselves about of being spacious giving ourselves some spaciousness to reflect on the some spaciousness to reflect on the some spaciousness to reflect on the different truth pieces of a puzzle what different truth pieces of a puzzle what different truth pieces of a puzzle what are the different pieces how do these are the different pieces how do these are the different pieces how do these pieces go together and the more time I pieces go together and the more time I pieces go together and the more time I can give myself to do that even if it's can give myself to do that even if it's can give myself to do that even if it's just a deep breath right because I know just a deep breath right because I know just a deep breath right because I know we're busy even if it's just a commute we're busy even if it's just a commute we're busy even if it's just a commute home from work to turn off the radio to home from work to turn off the radio to home from work to turn off the radio to turn off the podcast and just be with my turn off the podcast and just be with my turn off the podcast and just be with my own thoughts be with my own mind for a own thoughts be with my own mind for a own thoughts be with my own mind for a second before I rush into action that second before I rush into action that second before I rush into action that pause that frame to frame the situation pause that frame to frame the situation pause that frame to frame the situation I promise you we will take a better I promise you we will take a better I promise you we will take a better action once it's time to actually be action once it's time to actually be action once it's time to actually be brave so those are the three practices brave so those are the three practices brave so those are the three practices naming Framing and braving naming and naming Framing and braving naming and naming Framing and braving naming and when any complicated challenge arises or when any complicated challenge arises or when any complicated challenge arises or any complicated set of emotions pausing any complicated set of emotions pausing any complicated set of emotions pausing to name it without shame frame it and to name it without shame frame it and to name it without shame frame it and then Brave it let's do do something I'm then Brave it let's do do something I'm then Brave it let's do do something I'm not saying we can't do anything right as not saying we can't do anything right as not saying we can't do anything right as a therapist I think that braving step is a therapist I think that braving step is a therapist I think that braving step is really important leaders are great at really important leaders are great at really important leaders are great at that but let's just pause before and do that but let's just pause before and do that but let's just pause before and do some framing work before we Brave it so some framing work before we Brave it so some framing work before we Brave it so one of the things you touch on is being one of the things you touch on is being one of the things you touch on is being numb in leadership and that is I think

numb in leadership and that is I think numb in leadership and that is I think more wides spread than we admit I had a more wides spread than we admit I had a more wides spread than we admit I had a season in my life where I was numb I'm season in my life where I was numb I'm season in my life where I was numb I'm not numb anymore you know you go through not numb anymore you know you go through not numb anymore you know you go through minutes where you're numb or hours or minutes where you're numb or hours or minutes where you're numb or hours or days uh but generally my heart most days days uh but generally my heart most days days uh but generally my heart most days is is working these days which I'm very is is working these days which I'm very is is working these days which I'm very grateful for can you say more about grateful for can you say more about grateful for can you say more about being numb this is something you've being numb this is something you've being numb this is something you've noticed enough to write about oh I think noticed enough to write about oh I think noticed enough to write about oh I think it's prevalent and partly because we it's prevalent and partly because we it's prevalent and partly because we live in a world that is just filled with live in a world that is just filled with live in a world that is just filled with distractions and numbing devices ad distractions and numbing devices ad distractions and numbing devices ad nauseum and it's really hard to unhitch nauseum and it's really hard to unhitch nauseum and it's really hard to unhitch from them I think numbing is the from them I think numbing is the from them I think numbing is the opposite of naming numbing is opposite of naming numbing is opposite of naming numbing is suppressing suppressing suppressing emotions suppressing awarenesses from emotions suppressing awarenesses from emotions suppressing awarenesses from our conscious awareness we're we're our conscious awareness we're we're our conscious awareness we're we're suppressing naming is bringing truth suppressing naming is bringing truth suppressing naming is bringing truth pieces I call them truth pieces pieces I call them truth pieces pieces I call them truth pieces different aspects of what we're thinking different aspects of what we're thinking different aspects of what we're thinking about or feeling into our conscious about or feeling into our conscious about or feeling into our conscious awareness so numbing is the opposite of awareness so numbing is the opposite of awareness so numbing is the opposite of naming right when I'm numbing I'm like I naming right when I'm numbing I'm like I naming right when I'm numbing I'm like I there's something there I don't want to there's something there I don't want to there's something there I don't want to deal with I'm going to push it down push deal with I'm going to push it down push deal with I'm going to push it down push it there's a million ways to do that it there's a million ways to do that it there's a million ways to do that right naming is oh I don't want to feel right naming is oh I don't want to feel right naming is oh I don't want to feel this way but I this way but I this way but I do I don't have to fix it right away but do I don't have to fix it right away but do I don't have to fix it right away but I do need to at least name it and honor I do need to at least name it and honor I do need to at least name it and honor it and so you know numbing is again not it and so you know numbing is again not it and so you know numbing is again not to shame yourself for that but to the to shame yourself for that but to the to shame yourself for that but to the fact that you can name it and go and fact that you can name it and go and fact that you can name it and go and again there's degrees um in my first again there's degrees um in my first again there's degrees um in my first book boundaries for your soul we talk book boundaries for your soul we talk book boundaries for your soul we talk about it's a Christian adaptation of about it's a Christian adaptation of about it's a Christian adaptation of this internal family systems where we're this internal family systems where we're this internal family systems where we're an inner family and there are three an inner family and there are three an inner family and there are three parts to the inner family and one of

parts to the inner family and one of parts to the inner family and one of Parts is a numb is is numbing and Parts is a numb is is numbing and Parts is a numb is is numbing and distracting and escaping it's a part of distracting and escaping it's a part of distracting and escaping it's a part of us and when that's in healthy balance it us and when that's in healthy balance it us and when that's in healthy balance it might look like I had a hard day I'm might look like I had a hard day I'm might look like I had a hard day I'm gonna watch some shows and not think gonna watch some shows and not think gonna watch some shows and not think about it maybe have a you know glass of about it maybe have a you know glass of about it maybe have a you know glass of wine or a beer and I'm aware that I I wine or a beer and I'm aware that I I wine or a beer and I'm aware that I I just can't deal with this right now but just can't deal with this right now but just can't deal with this right now but then I wake up in the morning and I deal then I wake up in the morning and I deal then I wake up in the morning and I deal with it that's that's healthy that's with it that's that's healthy that's with it that's that's healthy that's healthy distraction right that's healthy healthy distraction right that's healthy healthy distraction right that's healthy Comfort that's healthy pacing and I Comfort that's healthy pacing and I Comfort that's healthy pacing and I think that's important to say it's not think that's important to say it's not think that's important to say it's not that we can't ever say I need to watch a that we can't ever say I need to watch a that we can't ever say I need to watch a show tonight I need to watch a mindless show tonight I need to watch a mindless show tonight I need to watch a mindless movie you know I need to go do something movie you know I need to go do something movie you know I need to go do something mindless that we need that when it mindless that we need that when it mindless that we need that when it becomes a problem is when we're never becomes a problem is when we're never becomes a problem is when we're never returning back to that original pain returning back to that original pain returning back to that original pain point and we just keep piling on more point and we just keep piling on more point and we just keep piling on more and more and more and suddenly we just and more and more and suddenly we just and more and more and suddenly we just can't not you know binge the shows we can't not you know binge the shows we can't not you know binge the shows we can't not drink we can't not um Escape can't not drink we can't not um Escape can't not drink we can't not um Escape into our Fantasy Life and we're never into our Fantasy Life and we're never into our Fantasy Life and we're never coming back to the original pain that coming back to the original pain that coming back to the original pain that needs to be named right and so numbing needs to be named right and so numbing needs to be named right and so numbing isn't again as most things in life isn't isn't again as most things in life isn't isn't again as most things in life isn't all bad there are moments where we need all bad there are moments where we need all bad there are moments where we need to as you said even strategically I need to as you said even strategically I need to as you said even strategically I need to check out I need I need to get my to check out I need I need to get my to check out I need I need to get my mind a rest I need to and there are mind a rest I need to and there are mind a rest I need to and there are healthy ways to do that there are healthy ways to do that there are healthy ways to do that there are healthier ways than others obviously to healthier ways than others obviously to healthier ways than others obviously to do that um taking a walk in nature being do that um taking a walk in nature being do that um taking a walk in nature being in nature you know doing something you in nature you know doing something you in nature you know doing something you enjoy identifying the things that you enjoy identifying the things that you enjoy identifying the things that you love the things that bring you life love the things that bring you life love the things that bring you life right healthy pleasure healthy Comfort right healthy pleasure healthy Comfort right healthy pleasure healthy Comfort healthy Escape it's so important to

healthy Escape it's so important to healthy Escape it's so important to cultivate um but again even when we're cultivate um but again even when we're cultivate um but again even when we're doing some of the numbing things the doing some of the numbing things the doing some of the numbing things the it's the frequency and the function of it's the frequency and the function of it's the frequency and the function of it are we using this instead of dealing it are we using this instead of dealing it are we using this instead of dealing with what's hard choose your addictions with what's hard choose your addictions with what's hard choose your addictions that's the way I always think of it it's that's the way I always think of it it's that's the way I always think of it it's like there are healthy ones and there like there are healthy ones and there like there are healthy ones and there are bad ones going for bike ride is a are bad ones going for bike ride is a are bad ones going for bike ride is a good one um you know getting out there good one um you know getting out there good one um you know getting out there and going for a walk is a good one um and going for a walk is a good one um and going for a walk is a good one um super helpful so I you know you you know super helpful so I you know you you know super helpful so I you know you you know the church you know church leaders when the church you know church leaders when the church you know church leaders when you think about leaders you think about leaders you think about leaders uh cuz you deal with so many issues in uh cuz you deal with so many issues in uh cuz you deal with so many issues in your book you talk about Envy you talk your book you talk about Envy you talk your book you talk about Envy you talk about rivalry low self-esteem arrogance about rivalry low self-esteem arrogance about rivalry low self-esteem arrogance toxic environments Etc what are some the toxic environments Etc what are some the toxic environments Etc what are some the top two or three that you see leaders top two or three that you see leaders top two or three that you see leaders struggling with again and again maybe struggling with again and again maybe struggling with again and again maybe you know if you had to just have a few you know if you had to just have a few you know if you had to just have a few minutes to speak into the lives and the minutes to speak into the lives and the minutes to speak into the lives and the inner life of church leaders what would inner life of church leaders what would inner life of church leaders what would you say you see rising to the surface you say you see rising to the surface you say you see rising to the surface and then how would you encourage us to and then how would you encourage us to and then how would you encourage us to handle what we're struggling with yeah handle what we're struggling with yeah handle what we're struggling with yeah that's a great question I think less that's a great question I think less that's a great question I think less than is a really hard one we might not than is a really hard one we might not than is a really hard one we might not want to name it um and there I I see a want to name it um and there I I see a want to name it um and there I I see a lot of work to protect us from that um lot of work to protect us from that um lot of work to protect us from that um but that feeling of worth um it's hard but that feeling of worth um it's hard but that feeling of worth um it's hard to compare yourselves to other leaders to compare yourselves to other leaders to compare yourselves to other leaders in a world filled you know it's like in a world filled you know it's like in a world filled you know it's like mainlining comparison in our world these

mainlining comparison in our world these mainlining comparison in our world these days where it's really hard to just kind days where it's really hard to just kind days where it's really hard to just kind of be embedded in your local community of be embedded in your local community of be embedded in your local community and your local space and your local and your local space and your local and your local space and your local church um without being aware of what's church um without being aware of what's church um without being aware of what's Happening you know whether through Happening you know whether through Happening you know whether through social media or even just the news or social media or even just the news or social media or even just the news or the constant information of what's the constant information of what's the constant information of what's happening in someone else's neighborhood happening in someone else's neighborhood happening in someone else's neighborhood you know miles away we're we're just you know miles away we're we're just you know miles away we're we're just constantly seeing what's out there constantly seeing what's out there constantly seeing what's out there versus really just being embedded in our versus really just being embedded in our versus really just being embedded in our own little sphere of influence that own little sphere of influence that own little sphere of influence that really matters that is really meaningful really matters that is really meaningful really matters that is really meaningful and so sometimes I wonder about that and so sometimes I wonder about that and so sometimes I wonder about that about that right that feeling of um good about that right that feeling of um good about that right that feeling of um good enough or less than and really doing the enough or less than and really doing the enough or less than and really doing the the soul work around what is the path in the soul work around what is the path in the soul work around what is the path in front of me you know what am I called to front of me you know what am I called to front of me you know what am I called to what does that work before God and what does that work before God and what does that work before God and before these people that I am called to before these people that I am called to before these people that I am called to uniquely and really keeping my eyes uniquely and really keeping my eyes uniquely and really keeping my eyes fixed on that not shaming myself um but fixed on that not shaming myself um but fixed on that not shaming myself um but also not trying to keep up with others also not trying to keep up with others also not trying to keep up with others right right what is the path that is in right right what is the path that is in right right what is the path that is in front of me that's hard for all of us front of me that's hard for all of us front of me that's hard for all of us but I think for leaders right now and but I think for leaders right now and but I think for leaders right now and leaders of churches that's hard that's leaders of churches that's hard that's leaders of churches that's hard that's really hard um so I think and I think really hard um so I think and I think really hard um so I think and I think that's what leads to a lot of the that's what leads to a lot of the that's what leads to a lot of the burnout and and a lot of the trying to burnout and and a lot of the trying to burnout and and a lot of the trying to Compulsive availability trying to be all Compulsive availability trying to be all Compulsive availability trying to be all things to all people when we're not things to all people when we're not things to all people when we're not anchored and you know what and and also anchored and you know what and and also anchored and you know what and and also the other thing I would say is just the other thing I would say is just the other thing I would say is just the because of all the information and the because of all the information and the because of all the information and because of all the knowledge because of all the knowledge because of all the knowledge right that we all have now yeah um is

right that we all have now yeah um is right that we all have now yeah um is just a a pressure to be all things to just a a pressure to be all things to just a a pressure to be all things to all people to know all things to be all all people to know all things to be all all people to know all things to be all things and one of the things I've really things and one of the things I've really things and one of the things I've really thought about a lot with church leaders thought about a lot with church leaders thought about a lot with church leaders is what are what are you doing well what is what are what are you doing well what is what are what are you doing well what do you do really really well and and do you do really really well and and do you do really really well and and really be be aware of maybe the here are really be be aware of maybe the here are really be be aware of maybe the here are the things we can't do or don't do or or the things we can't do or don't do or or the things we can't do or don't do or or don't focus on we think they're don't focus on we think they're don't focus on we think they're important and there are other folks in important and there are other folks in important and there are other folks in the community doing these things um but the community doing these things um but the community doing these things um but here's what we do here's one or two here's what we do here's one or two here's what we do here's one or two things you know that that we do really things you know that that we do really things you know that that we do really really well and and it kind of gets at really well and and it kind of gets at really well and and it kind of gets at knowing your lane but I like thinking knowing your lane but I like thinking knowing your lane but I like thinking about it as a strengths based approach about it as a strengths based approach about it as a strengths based approach um when I think about that strength um when I think about that strength um when I think about that strength finders I love that model of you know finders I love that model of you know finders I love that model of you know there's a couple of strengths I'm really there's a couple of strengths I'm really there's a couple of strengths I'm really good at and you know here are the good at and you know here are the good at and you know here are the strengths that are at the bottom of my strengths that are at the bottom of my strengths that are at the bottom of my list you know and I'm at peace with list you know and I'm at peace with list you know and I'm at peace with those and I don't it's okay I don't those and I don't it's okay I don't those and I don't it's okay I don't actually have to try to make those my actually have to try to make those my actually have to try to make those my top I can lean into my strengths um so top I can lean into my strengths um so top I can lean into my strengths um so those are those are some of the things those are those are some of the things those are those are some of the things I'm I work a lot with on Ministry I'm I work a lot with on Ministry I'm I work a lot with on Ministry leaders is is kind of narrowing the leaders is is kind of narrowing the leaders is is kind of narrowing the sphere of focus and being great at a sphere of focus and being great at a sphere of focus and being great at a couple of things taking the pressure off couple of things taking the pressure off couple of things taking the pressure off yourself um and then cultivating those yourself um and then cultivating those yourself um and then cultivating those skills to to really be aware of naming skills to to really be aware of naming skills to to really be aware of naming and framing your own sphere of influence and framing your own sphere of influence and framing your own sphere of influence and what you can do and and letting go and what you can do and and letting go and what you can do and and letting go of the rest um and removing you know of the rest um and removing you know of the rest um and removing you know setting boundaries with those setting boundaries with those setting boundaries with those channels that keep you in constant channels that keep you in constant channels that keep you in constant comparison mode and constant um feeling comparison mode and constant um feeling comparison mode and constant um feeling less than less than less than mode so there's a lot of leaders mode so there's a lot of leaders mode so there's a lot of leaders listening who are not in the senior listening who are not in the senior listening who are not in the senior leader chair and I get this scenario leader chair and I get this scenario leader chair and I get this scenario presented to me all the time and it presented to me all the time and it presented to me all the time and it always breaks my heart and I'd love your

always breaks my heart and I'd love your always breaks my heart and I'd love your take on it so you've got someone in the take on it so you've got someone in the take on it so you've got someone in the second chair third chair a couple levels second chair third chair a couple levels second chair third chair a couple levels down from the top who says hey my boss down from the top who says hey my boss down from the top who says hey my boss is not healthy like they're constantly is not healthy like they're constantly is not healthy like they're constantly available they expect everybody to be available they expect everybody to be available they expect everybody to be available they're not very self-aware available they're not very self-aware available they're not very self-aware like all the stuff you've talked about like all the stuff you've talked about like all the stuff you've talked about so far in this last hour they're not so far in this last hour they're not so far in this last hour they're not even listening to the show or if they even listening to the show or if they even listening to the show or if they are they think they're healthy but are they think they're healthy but are they think they're healthy but they're not what do I do if I'm in a they're not what do I do if I'm in a they're not what do I do if I'm in a toxic situation can you talk talk to toxic situation can you talk talk to toxic situation can you talk talk to that later yeah I so again this is where that later yeah I so again this is where that later yeah I so again this is where a part of me wants to have the quick fix a part of me wants to have the quick fix a part of me wants to have the quick fix for everybody because it's so hard and for everybody because it's so hard and for everybody because it's so hard and right and and and I would say there right and and and I would say there right and and and I would say there isn't a quick fix and also there are isn't a quick fix and also there are isn't a quick fix and also there are some things you can do toward the end of some things you can do toward the end of some things you can do toward the end of cultivating goodness inside your own cultivating goodness inside your own cultivating goodness inside your own soul that will Ripple out into the soul that will Ripple out into the soul that will Ripple out into the community um so the first thing is just community um so the first thing is just community um so the first thing is just to name it I know in the book I go to name it I know in the book I go to name it I know in the book I go through some of the toxic strategies through some of the toxic strategies through some of the toxic strategies that people use again to lay blame and that people use again to lay blame and that people use again to lay blame and not to even label people but to label not to even label people but to label not to even label people but to label patterns of behavior I think it's patterns of behavior I think it's patterns of behavior I think it's important to be able to name oh this is important to be able to name oh this is important to be able to name oh this is a toxic pattern of behavior this leader a toxic pattern of behavior this leader a toxic pattern of behavior this leader is blam shifting they're not taking is blam shifting they're not taking is blam shifting they're not taking accountability us an example yeah blam accountability us an example yeah blam accountability us an example yeah blam shifting is a one I see all the time shifting is a one I see all the time shifting is a one I see all the time where instead of taking responsibility where instead of taking responsibility where instead of taking responsibility well it's not my fault it's there's too well it's not my fault it's there's too well it's not my fault it's there's too many demands or it's not our fault we many demands or it's not our fault we many demands or it's not our fault we have all this pressure from the outside have all this pressure from the outside have all this pressure from the outside world well you're you're shifting blame world well you're you're shifting blame world well you're you're shifting blame right in instead of taking ownership right in instead of taking ownership right in instead of taking ownership actually you're right I am not great at actually you're right I am not great at actually you're right I am not great at managing my time I make myself managing my time I make myself managing my time I make myself compulsive and I get that that is hard compulsive and I get that that is hard compulsive and I get that that is hard I'm not able to change it on a dime

I'm not able to change it on a dime I'm not able to change it on a dime right but that's a very different tone right but that's a very different tone right but that's a very different tone when a leader can name something and when a leader can name something and when a leader can name something and take responsibility for it instead of take responsibility for it instead of take responsibility for it instead of Shifting blame onto other people I think Shifting blame onto other people I think Shifting blame onto other people I think that happens a lot and I think if you're that happens a lot and I think if you're that happens a lot and I think if you're under somebody who's doing that it's under somebody who's doing that it's under somebody who's doing that it's really hard and to be able to I want to really hard and to be able to I want to really hard and to be able to I want to give you permission to name that pattern give you permission to name that pattern give you permission to name that pattern of behaviors gaslighting I mean it's of behaviors gaslighting I mean it's of behaviors gaslighting I mean it's such a buzz word and you know I hesitate such a buzz word and you know I hesitate such a buzz word and you know I hesitate to bring it up right it's a buzzy word to bring it up right it's a buzzy word to bring it up right it's a buzzy word but it really is just sort of this but it really is just sort of this but it really is just sort of this invalidation H you things are really invalidation H you things are really invalidation H you things are really fine you're you know and and you know at fine you're you know and and you know at fine you're you know and and you know at its simplest form it's it's you know its simplest form it's it's you know its simplest form it's it's you know you're saying this is not okay this is you're saying this is not okay this is you're saying this is not okay this is what's happening in our church culture what's happening in our church culture what's happening in our church culture is not okay it's fine you're you're the is not okay it's fine you're you're the is not okay it's fine you're you're the one you're overly sensitive it's your one you're overly sensitive it's your one you're overly sensitive it's your problem that's really toxic and painful problem that's really toxic and painful problem that's really toxic and painful and that happens to people so again and that happens to people so again and that happens to people so again naming the pattern of behaviors is first naming the pattern of behaviors is first naming the pattern of behaviors is first just to name it again we don't have to just to name it again we don't have to just to name it again we don't have to fix it right away but naming it is fix it right away but naming it is fix it right away but naming it is freeing this is really happening I'm not freeing this is really happening I'm not freeing this is really happening I'm not crazy crazy crazy this is hard and then framing it right this is hard and then framing it right this is hard and then framing it right again asking questions how pervasive is again asking questions how pervasive is again asking questions how pervasive is it how detrimental is it can I put some it how detrimental is it can I put some it how detrimental is it can I put some boundaries around it the braving gets boundaries around it the braving gets boundaries around it the braving gets out what are some boundaries I can do out what are some boundaries I can do out what are some boundaries I can do can I excuse myself from certain can I excuse myself from certain can I excuse myself from certain conversations can I set some healthy conversations can I set some healthy conversations can I set some healthy norms for myself even if I can't change norms for myself even if I can't change norms for myself even if I can't change that other person um it's it there's a that other person um it's it there's a that other person um it's it there's a lot in the book on that because there lot in the book on that because there lot in the book on that because there isn't a big one-size fits-all but I isn't a big one-size fits-all but I isn't a big one-size fits-all but I would just say would just say would just say first and foremost to give you first and foremost to give you first and foremost to give you permission to name behaviors for what permission to name behaviors for what permission to name behaviors for what they are um and give yourself permission

they are um and give yourself permission they are um and give yourself permission that you may not be able to fix it right that you may not be able to fix it right that you may not be able to fix it right away but to stay very very curious about away but to stay very very curious about away but to stay very very curious about what you're naming how is that impacting what you're naming how is that impacting what you're naming how is that impacting me how is that impacting other people me how is that impacting other people me how is that impacting other people and praying into that with the power of and praying into that with the power of and praying into that with the power of the Holy Spirit how can I push against the Holy Spirit how can I push against the Holy Spirit how can I push against that not to change the other person that not to change the other person that not to change the other person maybe I do need to have a hard maybe I maybe I do need to have a hard maybe I maybe I do need to have a hard maybe I do need to have a conversation with that do need to have a conversation with that do need to have a conversation with that person but the more you take your time person but the more you take your time person but the more you take your time to really assess you know what's to really assess you know what's to really assess you know what's happening what are the costs what are happening what are the costs what are happening what are the costs what are the risks of speaking up what are the the risks of speaking up what are the the risks of speaking up what are the costs to setting some boundaries could I costs to setting some boundaries could I costs to setting some boundaries could I lose my job really assessing those truth lose my job really assessing those truth lose my job really assessing those truth pieces that framing work when you do pieces that framing work when you do pieces that framing work when you do brave brave a path through it it's going brave brave a path through it it's going brave brave a path through it it's going to be better and it's going to be more to be better and it's going to be more to be better and it's going to be more effective get get help from outside the effective get get help from outside the effective get get help from outside the system is the last thing I would say system is the last thing I would say system is the last thing I would say always I think it's helpful to have a always I think it's helpful to have a always I think it's helpful to have a set of eyes and ears on a workplace set of eyes and ears on a workplace set of eyes and ears on a workplace culture especially if there's toxicity culture especially if there's toxicity culture especially if there's toxicity from outside the system an objective from outside the system an objective from outside the system an objective third third third party so what I and I'm very happy to party so what I and I'm very happy to party so what I and I'm very happy to have you Nuance or correct what I'm have you Nuance or correct what I'm have you Nuance or correct what I'm about to say because I give this advice about to say because I give this advice about to say because I give this advice so often I would love just to test it so often I would love just to test it so often I would love just to test it against your expertise and see how I against your expertise and see how I against your expertise and see how I could make it better usually what I'll could make it better usually what I'll could make it better usually what I'll say to a leader in that situation is you say to a leader in that situation is you say to a leader in that situation is you know wow that's tough you know kind of know wow that's tough you know kind of know wow that's tough you know kind of some empathy and then I'll say couple of some empathy and then I'll say couple of some empathy and then I'll say couple of things number one just because they're things number one just because they're things number one just because they're unhealthy doesn't mean you have to be unhealthy doesn't mean you have to be unhealthy doesn't mean you have to be unhealthy yeah and you know you can be unhealthy yeah and you know you can be unhealthy yeah and you know you can be responsible for your own feelings the responsible for your own feelings the responsible for your own feelings the other thing is if you're over let's say other thing is if you're over let's say other thing is if you're over let's say you're the student pastor you're the student pastor you're the student pastor that doesn't mean you have to have an that doesn't mean you have to have an that doesn't mean you have to have an unhealthy student Ministry you can unhealthy student Ministry you can unhealthy student Ministry you can actually have health with your actually have health with your actually have health with your volunteers and you can Model A different volunteers and you can Model A different volunteers and you can Model A different reality a healthy your reality within

reality a healthy your reality within reality a healthy your reality within your church and ultimately one of two your church and ultimately one of two your church and ultimately one of two things is going to happen occasionally things is going to happen occasionally things is going to happen occasionally that will trickle to the top your boss that will trickle to the top your boss that will trickle to the top your boss will get curious and go huh how can I be will get curious and go huh how can I be will get curious and go huh how can I be healthier that I think has happened once healthier that I think has happened once healthier that I think has happened once in human history uh maybe twice like in human history uh maybe twice like in human history uh maybe twice like that's very unlikely right so then that's very unlikely right so then that's very unlikely right so then you're facing either and even a you're facing either and even a you're facing either and even a confrontation confrontation confrontation very unlikely to produce change in that very unlikely to produce change in that very unlikely to produce change in that senior leader just in my experience so senior leader just in my experience so senior leader just in my experience so then you you look at your reality you've then you you look at your reality you've then you you look at your reality you've either hit a glass ceiling this is the either hit a glass ceiling this is the either hit a glass ceiling this is the way it's going to be and I can be way it's going to be and I can be way it's going to be and I can be healthy for myself and healthy within my healthy for myself and healthy within my healthy for myself and healthy within my environment or you leave and you find a environment or you leave and you find a environment or you leave and you find a healthier culture any Nuance to that I healthier culture any Nuance to that I healthier culture any Nuance to that I think it's excellent Ken I think I think it's excellent Ken I think I think it's excellent Ken I think I really appreciate the wisdom the hard- really appreciate the wisdom the hard- really appreciate the wisdom the hard- earned wisdom in what you're saying in earned wisdom in what you're saying in earned wisdom in what you're saying in the book I talk about three options the book I talk about three options the book I talk about three options almost always we have three options we almost always we have three options we almost always we have three options we can fight for change we can leave can fight for change we can leave can fight for change we can leave yeah or the third option is suffer yeah or the third option is suffer yeah or the third option is suffer wisely and suffering wisely is often the wisely and suffering wisely is often the wisely and suffering wisely is often the path but what we mean by suffering path but what we mean by suffering path but what we mean by suffering wisely is kind of to the point of what wisely is kind of to the point of what wisely is kind of to the point of what you're saying it's like this isn't going you're saying it's like this isn't going you're saying it's like this isn't going to change it's going to be hard and and to change it's going to be hard and and to change it's going to be hard and and if it's so toxic that I can't do that I if it's so toxic that I can't do that I if it's so toxic that I can't do that I got to leave yeah right so that is an got to leave yeah right so that is an got to leave yeah right so that is an option so if I've decided I it's not so option so if I've decided I it's not so option so if I've decided I it's not so toxic that I have to leave um that I toxic that I have to leave um that I toxic that I have to leave um that I can't fight for change it's not going to can't fight for change it's not going to can't fight for change it's not going to change this person isn't going to change change this person isn't going to change change this person isn't going to change so suffering wisely means how do I so suffering wisely means how do I so suffering wisely means how do I mitigate the harm as best I can and mitigate the harm as best I can and mitigate the harm as best I can and support myself in ways that I need so support myself in ways that I need so support myself in ways that I need so that I can do my job well and I often that I can do my job well and I often that I can do my job well and I often think that's the path and it's the least think that's the path and it's the least think that's the path and it's the least glamorous path but again when we've done

glamorous path but again when we've done glamorous path but again when we've done the work of naming and I can't leave uh the work of naming and I can't leave uh the work of naming and I can't leave uh for whatever reason or I don't want to for whatever reason or I don't want to for whatever reason or I don't want to leave I can't change it this is the path leave I can't change it this is the path leave I can't change it this is the path I think it gives us some clarity um yeah I think it gives us some clarity um yeah I think it gives us some clarity um yeah that that we know what we're doing we've that that we know what we're doing we've that that we know what we're doing we've counted the cost we know what we're counted the cost we know what we're counted the cost we know what we're doing this is the path ahead of us and doing this is the path ahead of us and doing this is the path ahead of us and we can Brave that path a little more we can Brave that path a little more we can Brave that path a little more freely and a little more lightly once freely and a little more lightly once freely and a little more lightly once we've done that we've done that we've done that that's a great way to think through it that's a great way to think through it that's a great way to think through it so we talked about a lot of things is so we talked about a lot of things is so we talked about a lot of things is there anything we haven't touched on there anything we haven't touched on there anything we haven't touched on that you want to touch that you want to touch that you want to touch on gosh we have talked through a lot of on gosh we have talked through a lot of on gosh we have talked through a lot of things um yeah yeah yeah I think I guess things um yeah yeah yeah I think I guess things um yeah yeah yeah I think I guess I think I just want to I think I just want to I think I just want to encourage um the folks listening that encourage um the folks listening that encourage um the folks listening that there is a unique cultural moment right there is a unique cultural moment right there is a unique cultural moment right now I think it's hard to figure out how now I think it's hard to figure out how now I think it's hard to figure out how to be the body of Christ be the church to be the body of Christ be the church to be the body of Christ be the church in this cultural moment for many many in this cultural moment for many many in this cultural moment for many many reasons and I would just encourage the reasons and I would just encourage the reasons and I would just encourage the listener what an opportunity to go listener what an opportunity to go listener what an opportunity to go deeper into your own healing work you deeper into your own healing work you deeper into your own healing work you don't have to fix the problem um you don't have to fix the problem um you don't have to fix the problem um you right it's not we're not not any one of right it's not we're not not any one of right it's not we're not not any one of us is probably going to fix what's going us is probably going to fix what's going us is probably going to fix what's going on but being more of who God made you to on but being more of who God made you to on but being more of who God made you to be understanding more clearly what you be understanding more clearly what you be understanding more clearly what you do have to offer the strengths that you do have to offer the strengths that you do have to offer the strengths that you do bring how you can bring a pocket of do bring how you can bring a pocket of do bring how you can bring a pocket of health and light into this world is so health and light into this world is so health and light into this world is so life changing life changing life changing um and so and people need it you know um and so and people need it you know um and so and people need it you know I'm working with individuals I need I'm working with individuals I need I'm working with individuals I need those folks those healthy cells have to those folks those healthy cells have to those folks those healthy cells have to have healthy communities to go back into

have healthy communities to go back into have healthy communities to go back into right so your work is so important in right so your work is so important in right so your work is so important in creating that healthy culture that creating that healthy culture that creating that healthy culture that healthy space and as you do that people healthy space and as you do that people healthy space and as you do that people are going to come because there's a huge are going to come because there's a huge are going to come because there's a huge need um so I just want to encourage the need um so I just want to encourage the need um so I just want to encourage the listener to keep doing your own work um listener to keep doing your own work um listener to keep doing your own work um because it's it's what you have to it's because it's it's what you have to it's because it's it's what you have to it's the best gift you have to give uh not the best gift you have to give uh not the best gift you have to give uh not only to the people you serve but to this only to the people you serve but to this only to the people you serve but to this culture yeah and health is culture yeah and health is culture yeah and health is countercultural right now in the moment countercultural right now in the moment countercultural right now in the moment we're in it really is so that's a great we're in it really is so that's a great we're in it really is so that's a great encouragement well the book great title encouragement well the book great title encouragement well the book great title I shouldn't feel this way Dr Allison I shouldn't feel this way Dr Allison I shouldn't feel this way Dr Allison cook thank you so much for being with us cook thank you so much for being with us cook thank you so much for being with us Books available widely where can people Books available widely where can people Books available widely where can people uh connect with you online easiest place uh connect with you online easiest place uh connect with you online easiest place yeah I have a podcast called The Best of yeah I have a podcast called The Best of yeah I have a podcast called The Best of You podcast where I talk all things sort You podcast where I talk all things sort You podcast where I talk all things sort of faith and mental health um and I Dr of faith and mental health um and I Dr of faith and mental health um and I Dr cook.com is my website and Dr Alison cook.com is my website and Dr Alison cook.com is my website and Dr Alison cook on Instagram and Facebook okay cook on Instagram and Facebook okay cook on Instagram and Facebook okay where are you most active Instagram where are you most active Instagram where are you most active Instagram probably Instagram yeah yeah Instagram probably Instagram yeah yeah Instagram probably Instagram yeah yeah Instagram awesome Allison thank you so very much awesome Allison thank you so very much awesome Allison thank you so very much thanks for having me Carrie thanks for thanks for having me Carrie thanks for thanks for having me Carrie thanks for all that you do