Arthur Brooks’ Best Advice for Preachers (How to Reclaim 20 Hours of Sermon Prep Time)

Well, before we get to today's regularly Well, before we get to today's regularly scheduled podcast, I've got David scheduled podcast, I've got David scheduled podcast, I've got David Kinnaman with me for our monthly state Kinnaman with me for our monthly state Kinnaman with me for our monthly state of the church update. Man, things are of the church update. Man, things are of the church update. Man, things are happening, David. Like, we are getting happening, David. Like, we are getting happening, David. Like, we are getting so much data in real time, and one of so much data in real time, and one of so much data in real time, and one of the questions I think we're all asking, the questions I think we're all asking, the questions I think we're all asking, you and I were on this podcast a couple you and I were on this podcast a couple you and I were on this podcast a couple months ago saying, is there revival? months ago saying, is there revival? months ago saying, is there revival? Like, yes, but you got to tap the brakes Like, yes, but you got to tap the brakes Like, yes, but you got to tap the brakes because there are other issues. So, because there are other issues. So, because there are other issues. So, you've got some fresh data just in that you've got some fresh data just in that you've got some fresh data just in that kind of answers the question. Is there kind of answers the question. Is there kind of answers the question. Is there some growth happening in the church or some growth happening in the church or some growth happening in the church or not? What have you got for us? not? What have you got for us? not? What have you got for us? >> Well, throughout 2025, we have been >> Well, throughout 2025, we have been >> Well, throughout 2025, we have been seeing all sorts of interesting and seeing all sorts of interesting and seeing all sorts of interesting and unexpected changes in our religious unexpected changes in our religious unexpected changes in our religious environment. So, we've seen environment. So, we've seen environment. So, we've seen rising spiritual openness, especially rising spiritual openness, especially rising spiritual openness, especially among Gen Z and millennials, more among Gen Z and millennials, more among Gen Z and millennials, more curiosity and commitment to Jesus, more curiosity and commitment to Jesus, more curiosity and commitment to Jesus, more engagement with scripture. And that led engagement with scripture. And that led engagement with scripture. And that led us to a simple question is what's us to a simple question is what's us to a simple question is what's happening among local churches? Are they happening among local churches? Are they happening among local churches? Are they seeing it? So, we asked a sample of seeing it? So, we asked a sample of seeing it? So, we asked a sample of senior pastors around the country. Uh, senior pastors around the country. Uh, senior pastors around the country. Uh, we actually did this uh, research in in we actually did this uh, research in in we actually did this uh, research in in January and February of 2026. So, brand January and February of 2026. So, brand January and February of 2026. So, brand new fresh data from new fresh data from new fresh data from from 2026.

from 2026. from 2026. >> is not dry. >> is not dry. >> is not dry. >> And uh, we found that um, that the the >> And uh, we found that um, that the the >> And uh, we found that um, that the the the the way people are actually the the way people are actually the the way people are actually experiencing it is that the most pastors experiencing it is that the most pastors experiencing it is that the most pastors say they're seeing increased engagement, say they're seeing increased engagement, say they're seeing increased engagement, well, I should say almost half of uh, well, I should say almost half of uh, well, I should say almost half of uh, today's pastors are seeing increased today's pastors are seeing increased today's pastors are seeing increased engagement among Gen Z. So, we simply engagement among Gen Z. So, we simply engagement among Gen Z. So, we simply asked, over the last year, did you asked, over the last year, did you asked, over the last year, did you observe lower, higher, or the same observe lower, higher, or the same observe lower, higher, or the same amount of engagement from each of the amount of engagement from each of the amount of engagement from each of the following descriptions of people? And following descriptions of people? And following descriptions of people? And again, this is senior pastors, uh, again, this is senior pastors, uh, again, this is senior pastors, uh, Protestant mainline, uh, the full Protestant mainline, uh, the full Protestant mainline, uh, the full spectrum of Christian churches. And uh, spectrum of Christian churches. And uh, spectrum of Christian churches. And uh, we found that 45% said they saw higher we found that 45% said they saw higher we found that 45% said they saw higher engagement among Gen Z, 43% said the engagement among Gen Z, 43% said the engagement among Gen Z, 43% said the same amount of engagement, only 12% said same amount of engagement, only 12% said same amount of engagement, only 12% said they saw a lower engagement among Gen Z. they saw a lower engagement among Gen Z. they saw a lower engagement among Gen Z. And and then it kind of tapered down And and then it kind of tapered down And and then it kind of tapered down from there. So, 42% said they saw higher from there. So, 42% said they saw higher from there. So, 42% said they saw higher engagement among millennials, 31% said engagement among millennials, 31% said engagement among millennials, 31% said they saw higher engagement among Gen X, they saw higher engagement among Gen X, they saw higher engagement among Gen X, and only 25% of all senior pastors said and only 25% of all senior pastors said and only 25% of all senior pastors said they saw a higher engagement among they saw a higher engagement among they saw a higher engagement among boomers. Uh, Uh similarly, this is boomers. Uh, Uh similarly, this is boomers. Uh, Uh similarly, this is another question that has come up very another question that has come up very another question that has come up very frequently is whether men or women are frequently is whether men or women are frequently is whether men or women are more likely to be attending church and more likely to be attending church and more likely to be attending church and kind of how would you measure it? And kind of how would you measure it? And kind of how would you measure it? And again, we saw that 36% of pastors said again, we saw that 36% of pastors said again, we saw that 36% of pastors said they saw higher engagement among men they saw higher engagement among men they saw higher engagement among men compared to only 31% who said they saw compared to only 31% who said they saw compared to only 31% who said they saw higher engagement among women.

higher engagement among women. higher engagement among women. Most mostly people said they saw about Most mostly people said they saw about Most mostly people said they saw about the same level of engagement among the same level of engagement among the same level of engagement among women. Um and then also we saw 40% said women. Um and then also we saw 40% said women. Um and then also we saw 40% said they saw higher engagement among men 18 they saw higher engagement among men 18 they saw higher engagement among men 18 to 35. That was the highest number by by to 35. That was the highest number by by to 35. That was the highest number by by a good stretch. So the last little bit a good stretch. So the last little bit a good stretch. So the last little bit I'll I'll explain here is that in this I'll I'll explain here is that in this I'll I'll explain here is that in this data we were able to break down the data we were able to break down the data we were able to break down the groups that are experiencing the most groups that are experiencing the most groups that are experiencing the most likely likely likely different differences. So what was different differences. So what was different differences. So what was fascinating was among people who said fascinating was among people who said fascinating was among people who said they were experiencing they were experiencing they were experiencing renewal or higher engagement among Gen renewal or higher engagement among Gen renewal or higher engagement among Gen Z, it tended to be non-mainline rather Z, it tended to be non-mainline rather Z, it tended to be non-mainline rather than mainline churches and larger than mainline churches and larger than mainline churches and larger churches rather than smaller churches. churches rather than smaller churches. churches rather than smaller churches. It also It also It also sort of was focused on shorter shorter sort of was focused on shorter shorter sort of was focused on shorter shorter tenure in ministry, sort of younger tenure in ministry, sort of younger tenure in ministry, sort of younger pastors. So some really interesting kind pastors. So some really interesting kind pastors. So some really interesting kind of findings. It tells us that there you of findings. It tells us that there you of findings. It tells us that there you know, some sometimes as a researcher I'm know, some sometimes as a researcher I'm know, some sometimes as a researcher I'm like, okay, like, okay, like, okay, how do I know what what to believe in how do I know what what to believe in how do I know what what to believe in our data? I mean or in any set of data. our data? I mean or in any set of data. our data? I mean or in any set of data. Data is better than our best guesses, Data is better than our best guesses, Data is better than our best guesses, but it has its limitations. But what but it has its limitations. But what but it has its limitations. But what this data tells us is that many many this data tells us is that many many this data tells us is that many many church leaders, almost half of all church leaders, almost half of all church leaders, almost half of all Protestant church leaders, a big segment Protestant church leaders, a big segment Protestant church leaders, a big segment of larger churches, non-main churches, of larger churches, non-main churches, of larger churches, non-main churches, younger pastors are seeing some sort of younger pastors are seeing some sort of younger pastors are seeing some sort of increase in engagement among younger increase in engagement among younger increase in engagement among younger generations. And it just gives us generations. And it just gives us generations. And it just gives us another independent means of verifying another independent means of verifying another independent means of verifying that there is something spiritually a that there is something spiritually a that there is something spiritually a foot today.

foot today. foot today. >> Yeah, really fascinating. And I mean, >> Yeah, really fascinating. And I mean, >> Yeah, really fascinating. And I mean, we'll probably drill down on this again, we'll probably drill down on this again, we'll probably drill down on this again, but it looks like you know, when you're but it looks like you know, when you're but it looks like you know, when you're saying in you know, are you seeing real saying in you know, are you seeing real saying in you know, are you seeing real movement? If your church is less than movement? If your church is less than movement? If your church is less than 100 people, 26% said, "Yeah, we're 100 people, 26% said, "Yeah, we're 100 people, 26% said, "Yeah, we're seeing some positive signs." But, if seeing some positive signs." But, if seeing some positive signs." But, if your church is 500 or more in your church is 500 or more in your church is 500 or more in attendance, 67%. attendance, 67%. attendance, 67%. That sort of That sort of That sort of suggests that maybe growing churches suggests that maybe growing churches suggests that maybe growing churches continue to grow and struggling churches continue to grow and struggling churches continue to grow and struggling churches maybe struggle, which is which is really maybe struggle, which is which is really maybe struggle, which is which is really interesting. Man, there's a lot here, interesting. Man, there's a lot here, interesting. Man, there's a lot here, David. David. David. Uh there is actually a lot to drill down Uh there is actually a lot to drill down Uh there is actually a lot to drill down on, and if you want more, it's easy to on, and if you want more, it's easy to on, and if you want more, it's easy to get to. And the easiest way to do it is get to. And the easiest way to do it is get to. And the easiest way to do it is just go to stateofthechurch.com/carey. and see where you are in the story. And and see where you are in the story. And now, to today's podcast. now, to today's podcast. now, to today's podcast. >> If you use it as an adjunct to the right >> If you use it as an adjunct to the right >> If you use it as an adjunct to the right hemisphere of your brain, you're going hemisphere of your brain, you're going hemisphere of your brain, you're going to get depressed, anxious, lonely, and to get depressed, anxious, lonely, and to get depressed, anxious, lonely, and you're not going to like your life at you're not going to like your life at you're not going to like your life at all. And that means that if you use AI all. And that means that if you use AI all. And that means that if you use AI as your therapist, as your girlfriend, as your therapist, as your girlfriend, as your therapist, as your girlfriend, or as your buddy, or as your buddy, or as your buddy, those are the three things that people those are the three things that people those are the three things that people do where they substitute for actual do where they substitute for actual do where they substitute for actual human beings.

human beings. human beings. >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today because Arthur Brooks is back on the because Arthur Brooks is back on the because Arthur Brooks is back on the podcast. He's one of my favorite leaders podcast. He's one of my favorite leaders podcast. He's one of my favorite leaders to follow right now. And every once in a to follow right now. And every once in a to follow right now. And every once in a while, you know, you interview someone while, you know, you interview someone while, you know, you interview someone as I did before with Arthur, and you as I did before with Arthur, and you as I did before with Arthur, and you think, "Okay, we've covered his morning think, "Okay, we've covered his morning think, "Okay, we've covered his morning routine." But, I went there again, and routine." But, I went there again, and routine." But, I went there again, and my goodness, the well is deep. Like, my goodness, the well is deep. Like, my goodness, the well is deep. Like, there's some leaders, you know, they there's some leaders, you know, they there's some leaders, you know, they tell you everything they know about a tell you everything they know about a tell you everything they know about a topic in 10 minutes. We can go in so topic in 10 minutes. We can go in so topic in 10 minutes. We can go in so many different directions [music] with many different directions [music] with many different directions [music] with Arthur Brooks, and we do that today on Arthur Brooks, and we do that today on Arthur Brooks, and we do that today on round two. You're going to learn how to round two. You're going to learn how to round two. You're going to learn how to reclaim 20 hours of sermon writing time reclaim 20 hours of sermon writing time reclaim 20 hours of sermon writing time [music] a week. We're going to talk [music] a week. We're going to talk [music] a week. We're going to talk about his best advice for preachers. He about his best advice for preachers. He about his best advice for preachers. He goes to church every single day, has sat goes to church every single day, has sat goes to church every single day, has sat through thousands of sermons, and he through thousands of sermons, and he through thousands of sermons, and he gives lectures and talks around the gives lectures and talks around the gives lectures and talks around the world. So, you're going to learn from world. So, you're going to learn from world. So, you're going to learn from him. We're going to talk about the him. We're going to talk about the him. We're going to talk about the meaning of your life as well. [music] meaning of your life as well. [music] meaning of your life as well. [music] So, I'm very excited to have Arthur So, I'm very excited to have Arthur So, I'm very excited to have Arthur Brooks back. For those of you who are Brooks back. For those of you who are Brooks back. For those of you who are new to the podcast, welcome. We're new to the podcast, welcome. We're new to the podcast, welcome. We're really delighted that you're here, and really delighted that you're here, and really delighted that you're here, and we hope that if this is interesting to we hope that if this is interesting to we hope that if this is interesting to you, you will give us a follow, a you, you will give us a follow, a you, you will give us a follow, a subscribe, and that way you'll never subscribe, and that way you'll never subscribe, and that way you'll never miss an episode, and you can go back in miss an episode, and you can go back in miss an episode, and you can go back in the archive and find our first round the archive and find our first round the archive and find our first round with Arthur Brooks. Arthur Brooks is a with Arthur Brooks. Arthur Brooks is a with Arthur Brooks. Arthur Brooks is a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School professor at the Harvard Kennedy School professor at the Harvard Kennedy School and the Harvard Business School, where and the Harvard Business School, where and the Harvard Business School, where he teaches courses on leadership and he teaches courses on leadership and he teaches courses on leadership and happiness, well-subscribed courses. He's happiness, well-subscribed courses. He's happiness, well-subscribed courses. He's also a columnist at the Atlantic and a also a columnist at the Atlantic and a also a columnist at the Atlantic and a podcast host. He is the number one New podcast host. He is the number one New podcast host. He is the number one New York Times best-selling author of 15 York Times best-selling author of 15 York Times best-selling author of 15 books, including my favorite From books, including my favorite From books, including my favorite From Strength to Strength, which we talk Strength to Strength, which we talk Strength to Strength, which we talk about in this podcast again this time about in this podcast again this time about in this podcast again this time around. So, without further ado, my around. So, without further ado, my around. So, without further ado, my conversation with the one and only conversation with the one and only conversation with the one and only Arthur Brooks. Arthur, welcome back to Arthur Brooks. Arthur, welcome back to Arthur Brooks. Arthur, welcome back to the podcast. I am thrilled to have you.

the podcast. I am thrilled to have you. the podcast. I am thrilled to have you. >> Thanks, Carrie. I've been looking >> Thanks, Carrie. I've been looking >> Thanks, Carrie. I've been looking forward to it. I loved our last forward to it. I loved our last forward to it. I loved our last conversation and looking forward to the conversation and looking forward to the conversation and looking forward to the next one, this one. next one, this one. next one, this one. >> It was very stimulating, you know what? >> It was very stimulating, you know what? >> It was very stimulating, you know what? And I think about why I don't go to mass And I think about why I don't go to mass And I think about why I don't go to mass every day and why I don't work out at every day and why I don't work out at every day and why I don't work out at 4:30 in the morning most mornings. So, 4:30 in the morning most mornings. So, 4:30 in the morning most mornings. So, thank you for that. thank you for that. thank you for that. >> I'm delighted. And if I can if I can get >> I'm delighted. And if I can if I can get >> I'm delighted. And if I can if I can get you into mass and into the gym first you into mass and into the gym first you into mass and into the gym first thing in the morning, well, I mean, it's thing in the morning, well, I mean, it's thing in the morning, well, I mean, it's not easy, I have to say, and not easy, I have to say, and not easy, I have to say, and everybody does their own routine everybody does their own routine everybody does their own routine differently. My guess is that your faith differently. My guess is that your faith differently. My guess is that your faith and exercise are perfectly on point. and exercise are perfectly on point. and exercise are perfectly on point. >> Well, uh you know, definitely I have my >> Well, uh you know, definitely I have my >> Well, uh you know, definitely I have my devotional time in the morning, but I devotional time in the morning, but I devotional time in the morning, but I have moved my workout to the afternoon have moved my workout to the afternoon have moved my workout to the afternoon because I just because I just because I just I I end up burning jet fuel first thing I I end up burning jet fuel first thing I I end up burning jet fuel first thing in the morning. I just this morning in the morning. I just this morning in the morning. I just this morning turned in the manuscript for my next turned in the manuscript for my next turned in the manuscript for my next book. And that's one of the questions I book. And that's one of the questions I book. And that's one of the questions I have for you is like you How many days a have for you is like you How many days a have for you is like you How many days a year do you travel? year do you travel? year do you travel? >> Um I'm on the road about 175 days a >> Um I'm on the road about 175 days a >> Um I'm on the road about 175 days a year. year. year. >> Yeah, that's more than me. >> Yeah, that's more than me. >> Yeah, that's more than me. >> Yeah, I'm out about 48 weeks a year. I >> Yeah, I'm out about 48 weeks a year. I >> Yeah, I'm out about 48 weeks a year. I mean, not the whole week. Usually about mean, not the whole week. Usually about mean, not the whole week. Usually about three nights a week, 48 nights a year, three nights a week, 48 nights a year, three nights a week, 48 nights a year, something like 48 weeks a year, something like 48 weeks a year, something like 48 weeks a year, something like that. And so, and then something like that. And so, and then something like that. And so, and then with a few extras here's and there's and with a few extras here's and there's and with a few extras here's and there's and you know, a couple week tour in Europe, you know, a couple week tour in Europe, you know, a couple week tour in Europe, it all it adds up to 100 it all it adds up to 100 it all it adds up to 100 65, 175 nights a year.

65, 175 nights a year. 65, 175 nights a year. >> Yeah, plus you teach, right? You carry a >> Yeah, plus you teach, right? You carry a >> Yeah, plus you teach, right? You carry a full like a course load. Do you teach full like a course load. Do you teach full like a course load. Do you teach one How many courses do you teach at one How many courses do you teach at one How many courses do you teach at Harvard? Harvard? Harvard? >> Two. I I mean, I teach actually four >> Two. I I mean, I teach actually four >> Two. I I mean, I teach actually four half courses. So, a total of two half courses. So, a total of two half courses. So, a total of two courses, one in one each semester, but courses, one in one each semester, but courses, one in one each semester, but it's two two halves in the fall and two it's two two halves in the fall and two it's two two halves in the fall and two halves in the spring. halves in the spring. halves in the spring. >> So, let's just start there. How do you >> So, let's just start there. How do you >> So, let's just start there. How do you write books with that kind of schedule? write books with that kind of schedule? write books with that kind of schedule? Cuz that's a very uh it's a very selfish Cuz that's a very uh it's a very selfish Cuz that's a very uh it's a very selfish question for me right now. question for me right now. question for me right now. >> No, I hear you. And and the truth is >> No, I hear you. And and the truth is >> No, I hear you. And and the truth is that those of us that are dedicated to that those of us that are dedicated to that those of us that are dedicated to public education, you and me and a lot public education, you and me and a lot public education, you and me and a lot of people who are watching us right now, of people who are watching us right now, of people who are watching us right now, the the killer of that is the death of the the killer of that is the death of the the killer of that is the death of your original creative work. You're your original creative work. You're your original creative work. You're trying to recycle your work. You have to trying to recycle your work. You have to trying to recycle your work. You have to have new ideas. That's really important have new ideas. That's really important have new ideas. That's really important that you be generating new ideas. And that you be generating new ideas. And that you be generating new ideas. And the way to generate new ideas is by the way to generate new ideas is by the way to generate new ideas is by forcing yourself to do so, by putting forcing yourself to do so, by putting forcing yourself to do so, by putting yourself under deadline. yourself under deadline. yourself under deadline. To tell somebody that you're going to do To tell somebody that you're going to do To tell somebody that you're going to do something, right? And and and you know, something, right? And and and you know, something, right? And and and you know, your editor is going to say, "Kerry, your editor is going to say, "Kerry, your editor is going to say, "Kerry, this is the old this is the same book this is the old this is the same book this is the old this is the same book again." Or something, you know, you're again." Or something, you know, you're again." Or something, you know, you're going to hear about it, right? So, for going to hear about it, right? So, for going to hear about it, right? So, for me there's a couple things to keep in me there's a couple things to keep in me there's a couple things to keep in mind. Number one is what the creative mind. Number one is what the creative mind. Number one is what the creative output looks like and number two is the output looks like and number two is the output looks like and number two is the schedule, the rigid disciplined schedule schedule, the rigid disciplined schedule schedule, the rigid disciplined schedule for actually executing on that on that for actually executing on that on that for actually executing on that on that uh on what I'm trying to get out. So, uh on what I'm trying to get out. So, uh on what I'm trying to get out. So, the the first part is what the product the the first part is what the product the the first part is what the product looks like. And for me, books are not looks like. And for me, books are not looks like. And for me, books are not the way to stay active. Actually, it's the way to stay active. Actually, it's the way to stay active. Actually, it's it's a column. And so, I've had a column it's a column. And so, I've had a column it's a column. And so, I've had a column for a long time, a weekly column, about for a long time, a weekly column, about for a long time, a weekly column, about 1,200 words a week for the Atlantic.

1,200 words a week for the Atlantic. 1,200 words a week for the Atlantic. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's a science column, on the >> And it's a science column, on the >> And it's a science column, on the science of happiness, which is my my science of happiness, which is my my science of happiness, which is my my thing. And and each week it's a new thing. And and each week it's a new thing. And and each week it's a new subject and I'm usually 10 weeks ahead subject and I'm usually 10 weeks ahead subject and I'm usually 10 weeks ahead on the column. on the column. on the column. So, I'm thinking way ahead. I don't have So, I'm thinking way ahead. I don't have So, I'm thinking way ahead. I don't have to follow the news cycle, thank god. I to follow the news cycle, thank god. I to follow the news cycle, thank god. I mean, so I don't have to you know mean, so I don't have to you know mean, so I don't have to you know >> Yeah, you don't have to do a reaction >> Yeah, you don't have to do a reaction >> Yeah, you don't have to do a reaction piece every piece every piece every >> like, "Hey, Trump said a thing. Let's >> like, "Hey, Trump said a thing. Let's >> like, "Hey, Trump said a thing. Let's all talk about this and all freak out all talk about this and all freak out all talk about this and all freak out and talk about the thing." No, no. I'm and talk about the thing." No, no. I'm and talk about the thing." No, no. I'm talking about something that I think is talking about something that I think is talking about something that I think is important to people's lives and it's important to people's lives and it's important to people's lives and it's going to be important in 10 weeks, not going to be important in 10 weeks, not going to be important in 10 weeks, not just right now. And so, I'm doing that just right now. And so, I'm doing that just right now. And so, I'm doing that and that keeps me really, really fresh. and that keeps me really, really fresh. and that keeps me really, really fresh. That also beta tests ideas for what That also beta tests ideas for what That also beta tests ideas for what people are responding to in a very people are responding to in a very people are responding to in a very positive way. And that's how I know what positive way. And that's how I know what positive way. And that's how I know what my next book is going to be about. When my next book is going to be about. When my next book is going to be about. When I'm writing about a particular topic and I'm writing about a particular topic and I'm writing about a particular topic and it lights people up, so I'll get instead it lights people up, so I'll get instead it lights people up, so I'll get instead of 200,000 readers, I'll get a million of 200,000 readers, I'll get a million of 200,000 readers, I'll get a million readers. Huh, 5x. I can do math. readers. Huh, 5x. I can do math. readers. Huh, 5x. I can do math. >> Right, you got feedback on it, right? >> Right, you got feedback on it, right? >> Right, you got feedback on it, right? >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And and so, and >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And and so, and >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And and so, and if I really want to write about it, And if I really want to write about it, And if I really want to write about it, And some both supply and demand that I know some both supply and demand that I know some both supply and demand that I know kind of what I'm going to write a book kind of what I'm going to write a book kind of what I'm going to write a book about. Then the second part is a about. Then the second part is a about. Then the second part is a scheduling. scheduling. scheduling. Um I work my my column takes me about 10 Um I work my my column takes me about 10 Um I work my my column takes me about 10 hours a week to write.

hours a week to write. hours a week to write. I'm usually also writing a book, which I I'm usually also writing a book, which I I'm usually also writing a book, which I work on for about 5 hours a week. So I work on for about 5 hours a week. So I work on for about 5 hours a week. So I need need need at least 15 hours of creative time. Now, at least 15 hours of creative time. Now, at least 15 hours of creative time. Now, that's if I'm really being productive. that's if I'm really being productive. that's if I'm really being productive. 15 hours when I you know, late in the 15 hours when I you know, late in the 15 hours when I you know, late in the afternoon is not going to get it done. afternoon is not going to get it done. afternoon is not going to get it done. Cuz you know perfectly and actually the Cuz you know perfectly and actually the Cuz you know perfectly and actually the neurobiology of that is very clear as neurobiology of that is very clear as neurobiology of that is very clear as well. When you're late in the afternoon, well. When you're late in the afternoon, well. When you're late in the afternoon, you the dopamine in your prefrontal you the dopamine in your prefrontal you the dopamine in your prefrontal cortex is spent. People think of cortex is spent. People think of cortex is spent. People think of dopamine is kind of this anticipation of dopamine is kind of this anticipation of dopamine is kind of this anticipation of pleasure neuromodulator that you know, pleasure neuromodulator that you know, pleasure neuromodulator that you know, drives addiction and craving and that's drives addiction and craving and that's drives addiction and craving and that's all true. But it also in the prefrontal all true. But it also in the prefrontal all true. But it also in the prefrontal cortex is what gives you focus and cortex is what gives you focus and cortex is what gives you focus and creativity. That's why ADHD drugs, when creativity. That's why ADHD drugs, when creativity. That's why ADHD drugs, when you give them to your kids, are you give them to your kids, are you give them to your kids, are psychostimulants that vacuum dopamine psychostimulants that vacuum dopamine psychostimulants that vacuum dopamine into the prefrontal cortex. For you and into the prefrontal cortex. For you and into the prefrontal cortex. For you and me, not taking psychostimulants, well, me, not taking psychostimulants, well, me, not taking psychostimulants, well, at least not prescription at least not prescription at least not prescription psychostimulants. psychostimulants. psychostimulants. >> Not right now. No. >> Not right now. No. >> Not right now. No. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What we need to do is to optimize our What we need to do is to optimize our What we need to do is to optimize our brain chemistry so that on you know, 5 brain chemistry so that on you know, 5 brain chemistry so that on you know, 5 days a week, 3 to 4 hours a day in my days a week, 3 to 4 hours a day in my days a week, 3 to 4 hours a day in my case, you can actually get all your case, you can actually get all your case, you can actually get all your creative work done. And that happens in creative work done. And that happens in creative work done. And that happens in the morning. That's when you're going to the morning. That's when you're going to the morning. That's when you're going to have it the most. I you know, a lot of have it the most. I you know, a lot of have it the most. I you know, a lot of people say, "I'm a night owl." Probably people say, "I'm a night owl." Probably people say, "I'm a night owl." Probably not. You know, I used to [laughter] not. You know, I used to [laughter] not. You know, I used to [laughter] think I was a night owl, too. I mean, think I was a night owl, too. I mean, think I was a night owl, too. I mean, there are chronotypes, but they're only there are chronotypes, but they're only there are chronotypes, but they're only about 40% genetic. Most people actually about 40% genetic. Most people actually about 40% genetic. Most people actually have better morning lark activity with have better morning lark activity with have better morning lark activity with respect to their neurochemistry. And respect to their neurochemistry. And respect to their neurochemistry. And that means you got to optimize it in a that means you got to optimize it in a that means you got to optimize it in a certain way. The reason I get up at 4:30 certain way. The reason I get up at 4:30 certain way. The reason I get up at 4:30 and then I work out really hard without and then I work out really hard without and then I work out really hard without taxing my thinking. I'm not listening to taxing my thinking. I'm not listening to taxing my thinking. I'm not listening to neuroscience podcasts.

neuroscience podcasts. neuroscience podcasts. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> I'm listening to nonsense, mostly, >> I'm listening to nonsense, mostly, >> I'm listening to nonsense, mostly, right? Because right? Because right? Because >> What are you listening to? Are you >> What are you listening to? Are you >> What are you listening to? Are you listening or are you like are you listening or are you like are you listening or are you like are you listening to music or are you listening listening to music or are you listening listening to music or are you listening to podcast? to podcast? to podcast? >> I often am not listening to anything, as >> I often am not listening to anything, as >> I often am not listening to anything, as a matter of fact, because I actually a matter of fact, because I actually a matter of fact, because I actually want to have the same kind of stimulus want to have the same kind of stimulus want to have the same kind of stimulus that I would have by getting in the that I would have by getting in the that I would have by getting in the shower. People have their best ideas in shower. People have their best ideas in shower. People have their best ideas in the shower because the the shower because the the shower because the their earphones are not in there and their earphones are not in there and their earphones are not in there and their their phone isn't in there. their their phone isn't in there. their their phone isn't in there. That's why so the default mode network That's why so the default mode network That's why so the default mode network in the brain was a set of structures in the brain was a set of structures in the brain was a set of structures that lights up when you're thinking that lights up when you're thinking that lights up when you're thinking about nothing turns on and you have good about nothing turns on and you have good about nothing turns on and you have good ideas without overtaxing your brain. And ideas without overtaxing your brain. And ideas without overtaxing your brain. And so that's really really important. So so that's really really important. So so that's really really important. So it'll be something that's really mundane it'll be something that's really mundane it'll be something that's really mundane or something or or nothing at all first or something or or nothing at all first or something or or nothing at all first thing in the morning for an hour. So thing in the morning for an hour. So thing in the morning for an hour. So 4:45 to 5:45 I'm picking up heavy things 4:45 to 5:45 I'm picking up heavy things 4:45 to 5:45 I'm picking up heavy things and running around. and running around. and running around. And then I as you mentioned at the very And then I as you mentioned at the very And then I as you mentioned at the very beginning of the show then I go to mass beginning of the show then I go to mass beginning of the show then I go to mass every day. I get cleaned up and my wife every day. I get cleaned up and my wife every day. I get cleaned up and my wife and I we go to 6:30 mass. And that's and I we go to 6:30 mass. And that's and I we go to 6:30 mass. And that's 6:30 to 7:00. Weekday mass is only half 6:30 to 7:00. Weekday mass is only half 6:30 to 7:00. Weekday mass is only half an hour long and that's all before I an hour long and that's all before I an hour long and that's all before I actually administer psychostimulants to actually administer psychostimulants to actually administer psychostimulants to myself because I want my brain set up. I myself because I want my brain set up. I myself because I want my brain set up. I want body and soul to be ready to use want body and soul to be ready to use want body and soul to be ready to use caffeine not as a a way to wake up but caffeine not as a a way to wake up but caffeine not as a a way to wake up but as a nootropic drug which is to say as a as a nootropic drug which is to say as a as a nootropic drug which is to say as a way to focus as a way to get the way to focus as a way to get the way to focus as a way to get the dopamine into my prefrontal cortex. So dopamine into my prefrontal cortex. So dopamine into my prefrontal cortex. So then I come back from mass and I take my then I come back from mass and I take my then I come back from mass and I take my big bolus of coffee usually about 380 big bolus of coffee usually about 380 big bolus of coffee usually about 380 milligrams of caffeine. That's like a milligrams of caffeine. That's like a milligrams of caffeine. That's like a Give or take a few. Yeah, that's a venti Give or take a few. Yeah, that's a venti Give or take a few. Yeah, that's a venti Starbucks basically. Just one. But man, Starbucks basically. Just one. But man, Starbucks basically. Just one. But man, boom into the brain that's really boom into the brain that's really boom into the brain that's really waiting for it. It'll cross the blood waiting for it. It'll cross the blood waiting for it. It'll cross the blood brain barrier and and literally in

brain barrier and and literally in brain barrier and and literally in seconds you're going to start to feel seconds you're going to start to feel seconds you're going to start to feel this. That's the reason it says on the this. That's the reason it says on the this. That's the reason it says on the Starbucks cup there's nothing like that Starbucks cup there's nothing like that Starbucks cup there's nothing like that first sip feeling because literally that first sip feeling because literally that first sip feeling because literally that first sip is going to cross the blood first sip is going to cross the blood first sip is going to cross the blood brain barrier the caffeine in it and brain barrier the caffeine in it and brain barrier the caffeine in it and that's when I get my first food about 60 that's when I get my first food about 60 that's when I get my first food about 60 grams of protein in you know of the way grams of protein in you know of the way grams of protein in you know of the way a little concoction that I make every a little concoction that I make every a little concoction that I make every morning and boom man, I've got three to morning and boom man, I've got three to morning and boom man, I've got three to four hours of unadulterated focus. four hours of unadulterated focus. four hours of unadulterated focus. That's every day when I'm at home or I'm That's every day when I'm at home or I'm That's every day when I'm at home or I'm here in my office because my my office here in my office because my my office here in my office because my my office is is pretty near my home. I I don't is is pretty near my home. I I don't is is pretty near my home. I I don't take any meetings from from 7:30 in the take any meetings from from 7:30 in the take any meetings from from 7:30 in the morning till noon. Nobody gets in. I morning till noon. Nobody gets in. I morning till noon. Nobody gets in. I mean there's no meetings, there's no mean there's no meetings, there's no mean there's no meetings, there's no phone calls, there's no distractions Cuz phone calls, there's no distractions Cuz phone calls, there's no distractions Cuz I can do as much during that time if I I can do as much during that time if I I can do as much during that time if I have my brain chemistry optimized as I have my brain chemistry optimized as I have my brain chemistry optimized as I was able to do in the old days in about was able to do in the old days in about was able to do in the old days in about 2 weeks. If I was working in the later 2 weeks. If I was working in the later 2 weeks. If I was working in the later afternoon, then I would be looking at afternoon, then I would be looking at afternoon, then I would be looking at the newspaper and people would be the newspaper and people would be the newspaper and people would be calling me on the telephone and there's calling me on the telephone and there's calling me on the telephone and there's only a couple of people in my life that only a couple of people in my life that only a couple of people in my life that can get to me during that period is is can get to me during that period is is can get to me during that period is is the way that that works. So, that's a the way that that works. So, that's a the way that that works. So, that's a long-winded answer. Sorry to long-winded answer. Sorry to long-winded answer. Sorry to >> No, this is so helpful. So, you what >> No, this is so helpful. So, you what >> No, this is so helpful. So, you what you're saying is by Okay, I've got one you're saying is by Okay, I've got one you're saying is by Okay, I've got one question before I go to my next question before I go to my next question before I go to my next question, which is you're in the middle question, which is you're in the middle question, which is you're in the middle of your workout, you have a brilliant of your workout, you have a brilliant of your workout, you have a brilliant idea. Do you have a capture system?

idea. Do you have a capture system? idea. Do you have a capture system? >> Yeah, for sure. And that at that point >> Yeah, for sure. And that at that point >> Yeah, for sure. And that at that point I'll actually just read it into my phone I'll actually just read it into my phone I'll actually just read it into my phone or you know, write it into a note or you know, write it into a note or you know, write it into a note in my phone if I have a really big idea. in my phone if I have a really big idea. in my phone if I have a really big idea. And often I do, you know, often And often I do, you know, often And often I do, you know, often something will come to me and I'll say, something will come to me and I'll say, something will come to me and I'll say, "Oh, yeah, that thing. I wanted to write "Oh, yeah, that thing. I wanted to write "Oh, yeah, that thing. I wanted to write I wanted to use that whatever particular I wanted to use that whatever particular I wanted to use that whatever particular idea." And actually the ideas that have idea." And actually the ideas that have idea." And actually the ideas that have come to me are really important. I'll do come to me are really important. I'll do come to me are really important. I'll do the same thing when I'm in the shower. the same thing when I'm in the shower. the same thing when I'm in the shower. I'll get out of the shower because I I'll get out of the shower because I I'll get out of the shower because I can't afford to lose good ideas. And you can't afford to lose good ideas. And you can't afford to lose good ideas. And you know, a lot of people watching us right know, a lot of people watching us right know, a lot of people watching us right now, I mean, they're they're they're now, I mean, they're they're they're now, I mean, they're they're they're preparing Sunday sermons, for example. preparing Sunday sermons, for example. preparing Sunday sermons, for example. And And And >> saying with that 1,200-word column, >> saying with that 1,200-word column, >> saying with that 1,200-word column, you're basically a preacher. You're in you're basically a preacher. You're in you're basically a preacher. You're in the same rhythm. the same rhythm. the same rhythm. >> That's right. And and and it's really >> That's right. And and and it's really >> That's right. And and and it's really important. I mean, I'm we're talking I important. I mean, I'm we're talking I important. I mean, I'm we're talking I mean, I'm Catholic so the homilies are mean, I'm Catholic so the homilies are mean, I'm Catholic so the homilies are a lot shorter than that and and and I a lot shorter than that and and and I a lot shorter than that and and and I mean, you guys you guys got your stuff mean, you guys you guys got your stuff mean, you guys you guys got your stuff together. So, I mean, you can't be together. So, I mean, you can't be together. So, I mean, you can't be boring if you're going to be going for boring if you're going to be going for boring if you're going to be going for 35 or 40 minutes. 35 or 40 minutes. 35 or 40 minutes. If it's a 9-minute homily and you know, If it's a 9-minute homily and you know, If it's a 9-minute homily and you know, the Catholic Church sort of says that no the Catholic Church sort of says that no the Catholic Church sort of says that no souls are saved after about 9 minutes. souls are saved after about 9 minutes. souls are saved after about 9 minutes. But I mean, that But I mean, that But I mean, that it's a different vibe because it's a it's a different vibe because it's a it's a different vibe because it's a sacramental vibe and it's But this is sacramental vibe and it's But this is sacramental vibe and it's But this is very different than what you guys are very different than what you guys are very different than what you guys are doing and and you need original content.

doing and and you need original content. doing and and you need original content. You know, Protestant pastors are You know, Protestant pastors are You know, Protestant pastors are basically weekly columnists. And that basically weekly columnists. And that basically weekly columnists. And that means you need a lead. You need means you need a lead. You need means you need a lead. You need explanation. You need practical tips. explanation. You need practical tips. explanation. You need practical tips. You need a kicker. I mean, you need all You need a kicker. I mean, you need all You need a kicker. I mean, you need all that stuff and and that requires your that stuff and and that requires your that stuff and and that requires your brain being on point when you're writing brain being on point when you're writing brain being on point when you're writing that thing. that thing. that thing. >> This episode is brought to you by The >> This episode is brought to you by The >> This episode is brought to you by The Art of Leadership Live. If you're Art of Leadership Live. If you're Art of Leadership Live. If you're leading a church and you know that leading a church and you know that leading a church and you know that there's more in you and more ahead for there's more in you and more ahead for there's more in you and more ahead for your team, I want to personally invite your team, I want to personally invite your team, I want to personally invite you to something really special. you to something really special. you to something really special. September 21st through 23rd, 2026, this September 21st through 23rd, 2026, this September 21st through 23rd, 2026, this year, I am hosting The Art of Leadership year, I am hosting The Art of Leadership year, I am hosting The Art of Leadership Live in Nashville, Tennessee. So, this Live in Nashville, Tennessee. So, this Live in Nashville, Tennessee. So, this isn't a conference where you sit in a isn't a conference where you sit in a isn't a conference where you sit in a chair for 8 hours, take some notes, and chair for 8 hours, take some notes, and chair for 8 hours, take some notes, and hope that something sticks. This is hope that something sticks. This is hope that something sticks. This is highly interactive. It's deeply highly interactive. It's deeply highly interactive. It's deeply practical, and it's intentionally practical, and it's intentionally practical, and it's intentionally designed to help you make real progress designed to help you make real progress designed to help you make real progress on the leadership challenges you're on the leadership challenges you're on the leadership challenges you're facing right now. We combine focused facing right now. We combine focused facing right now. We combine focused teaching, meaningful conversations with teaching, meaningful conversations with teaching, meaningful conversations with other like-minded leaders, and we build other like-minded leaders, and we build other like-minded leaders, and we build in space for you to think, process, and in space for you to think, process, and in space for you to think, process, and actually apply what you're learning. So, actually apply what you're learning. So, actually apply what you're learning. So, you don't just leave inspired, you leave you don't just leave inspired, you leave you don't just leave inspired, you leave with clarity and next steps. And we keep with clarity and next steps. And we keep with clarity and next steps. And we keep it small because I want to interact with it small because I want to interact with it small because I want to interact with you, and I want you to interact with you, and I want you to interact with you, and I want you to interact with other people. So, I'll tell you this, other people. So, I'll tell you this, other people. So, I'll tell you this, the leaders who gathered last year the leaders who gathered last year the leaders who gathered last year absolutely blew me away. The depth of absolutely blew me away. The depth of absolutely blew me away. The depth of the conversations, the honesty in the the conversations, the honesty in the the conversations, the honesty in the room, and the moment the moment, sorry.

room, and the moment the moment, sorry. room, and the moment the moment, sorry. So, I'll tell you this, the leaders who So, I'll tell you this, the leaders who So, I'll tell you this, the leaders who gathered last year absolutely blew me gathered last year absolutely blew me gathered last year absolutely blew me away. The depth of the conversations, away. The depth of the conversations, away. The depth of the conversations, the honesty in the room, and the the honesty in the room, and the the honesty in the room, and the momentum people left with, that's what momentum people left with, that's what momentum people left with, that's what makes this event so special, and I can't makes this event so special, and I can't makes this event so special, and I can't wait to do it again. This time we're wait to do it again. This time we're wait to do it again. This time we're going to Nashville. So, one important going to Nashville. So, one important going to Nashville. So, one important note, early bird pricing is still note, early bird pricing is still note, early bird pricing is still available, but only for a very limited available, but only for a very limited available, but only for a very limited time. If you've been thinking about time. If you've been thinking about time. If you've been thinking about going, now's the time. Once the rate going, now's the time. Once the rate going, now's the time. Once the rate expires, expires, expires, rates go up for good. So, visit the art rates go up for good. So, visit the art rates go up for good. So, visit the art of leadership live.com to secure the of leadership live.com to secure the of leadership live.com to secure the best pricing. Again, that is the art of best pricing. Again, that is the art of best pricing. Again, that is the art of leadership live.com. I would love to see leadership live.com. I would love to see leadership live.com. I would love to see you there. This episode is brought to you there. This episode is brought to you there. This episode is brought to you by Subsplash. So, we live in a world you by Subsplash. So, we live in a world you by Subsplash. So, we live in a world that celebrates more, more growth, more that celebrates more, more growth, more that celebrates more, more growth, more programs, more digital presence, and programs, more digital presence, and programs, more digital presence, and we've been told that to reach more we've been told that to reach more we've been told that to reach more people, we just got to do more. But, people, we just got to do more. But, people, we just got to do more. But, there's a heavy truth that every pastor there's a heavy truth that every pastor there's a heavy truth that every pastor and executive leader feels at the end of and executive leader feels at the end of and executive leader feels at the end of the day. The pursuit of more leads to a the day. The pursuit of more leads to a the day. The pursuit of more leads to a crisis of complexity. You see it in your crisis of complexity. You see it in your crisis of complexity. You see it in your inboxes, back-to-back meetings, the inboxes, back-to-back meetings, the inboxes, back-to-back meetings, the endless to-do lists that follow you endless to-do lists that follow you endless to-do lists that follow you home. We feel the weight of a thousand home. We feel the weight of a thousand home. We feel the weight of a thousand tasks that need our attention. So, what tasks that need our attention. So, what tasks that need our attention. So, what if there was a way to cut through all of if there was a way to cut through all of if there was a way to cut through all of the clutter? Fewer logins, less the clutter? Fewer logins, less the clutter? Fewer logins, less scattered data, and no distractions for scattered data, and no distractions for scattered data, and no distractions for your people to trip up on. By your people to trip up on. By your people to trip up on. By simplifying your technology on one simplifying your technology on one simplifying your technology on one platform, from your website and sermons platform, from your website and sermons platform, from your website and sermons to small groups and discipleship to small groups and discipleship to small groups and discipleship resources, you can create a clearer and resources, you can create a clearer and resources, you can create a clearer and more resilient church. Over 20,000 more resilient church. Over 20,000 more resilient church. Over 20,000 churches and organizations partner with

churches and organizations partner with churches and organizations partner with Subsplash to simplify their tools and Subsplash to simplify their tools and Subsplash to simplify their tools and multiply their ministry impact. Head to multiply their ministry impact. Head to multiply their ministry impact. Head to Subsplash.com/carey Subsplash.com/carey Subsplash.com/carey today. Save $500 when you sign up. So, today. Save $500 when you sign up. So, today. Save $500 when you sign up. So, to save $500 right now, go to to save $500 right now, go to to save $500 right now, go to Subsplash.com/c Subsplash.com/c Subsplash.com/c a r e y. a r e y. a r e y. >> So, okay. So, you've got a capture >> So, okay. So, you've got a capture >> So, okay. So, you've got a capture system, which is so important. And you system, which is so important. And you system, which is so important. And you always think, "Oh, I'll remember it always think, "Oh, I'll remember it always think, "Oh, I'll remember it later." I don't. I don't remember it later." I don't. I don't remember it later." I don't. I don't remember it later. So, I got to capture it in the later. So, I got to capture it in the later. So, I got to capture it in the moment. Even, you know, working on this moment. Even, you know, working on this moment. Even, you know, working on this book for the last 6 7 months, book for the last 6 7 months, book for the last 6 7 months, sometimes 3:00 in the morning, it's sometimes 3:00 in the morning, it's sometimes 3:00 in the morning, it's like, I better write that down right now like, I better write that down right now like, I better write that down right now cuz it all What's happening? I mean, you cuz it all What's happening? I mean, you cuz it all What's happening? I mean, you do study brain science. What's happening do study brain science. What's happening do study brain science. What's happening in the brain in the shower, during a in the brain in the shower, during a in the brain in the shower, during a workout? I came up with workout? I came up with workout? I came up with the central thesis to my book. Like, you the central thesis to my book. Like, you the central thesis to my book. Like, you know, like I had it, but I didn't have know, like I had it, but I didn't have know, like I had it, but I didn't have the phrasing. the phrasing. the phrasing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then, the church's future direction >> And then, the church's future direction >> And then, the church's future direction is human connection came to me while I is human connection came to me while I is human connection came to me while I was working out one day. was working out one day. was working out one day. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I was like, there you go. It It And >> And I was like, there you go. It It And >> And I was like, there you go. It It And I haven't veered from that. That was I haven't veered from that. That was I haven't veered from that. That was months ago. What is going on in your months ago. What is going on in your months ago. What is going on in your brain when you're not working on it, but brain when you're not working on it, but brain when you're not working on it, but it's still it's still it's still processing? What's the science behind processing? What's the science behind processing? What's the science behind >> Your brain is actually working on it.

>> Your brain is actually working on it. >> Your brain is actually working on it. One of the things that I recommend to One of the things that I recommend to One of the things that I recommend to people is that you take a key question people is that you take a key question people is that you take a key question that you've got that you've got that you've got and think about it before you go to and think about it before you go to and think about it before you go to sleep. Cuz your brain will work on it sleep. Cuz your brain will work on it sleep. Cuz your brain will work on it while you're asleep. And people can while you're asleep. And people can while you're asleep. And people can actually elucidate things. They can actually elucidate things. They can actually elucidate things. They can actually figure out if it was the right actually figure out if it was the right actually figure out if it was the right question, for example. They can You will question, for example. They can You will question, for example. They can You will cogitate on it at night. It's not like cogitate on it at night. It's not like cogitate on it at night. It's not like you can, you know, read a whole book and you can, you know, read a whole book and you can, you know, read a whole book and have it memorized first thing in the have it memorized first thing in the have it memorized first thing in the morning. But a key idea is important. morning. But a key idea is important. morning. But a key idea is important. Now, you have to decide whether or not Now, you have to decide whether or not Now, you have to decide whether or not that gets in the way of your ordinary that gets in the way of your ordinary that gets in the way of your ordinary night time routine. And I've actually night time routine. And I've actually night time routine. And I've actually written a lot about science-based written a lot about science-based written a lot about science-based protocols for sleeping better and having protocols for sleeping better and having protocols for sleeping better and having a better marriage, for example, a better marriage, for example, a better marriage, for example, depending on what you do at night. And I depending on what you do at night. And I depending on what you do at night. And I I strongly recommend it having a prayer I strongly recommend it having a prayer I strongly recommend it having a prayer that you say over and over and over that you say over and over and over that you say over and over and over again as you go to sleep. So, this might again as you go to sleep. So, this might again as you go to sleep. So, this might be a little bit at odds with that. be a little bit at odds with that. be a little bit at odds with that. But the whole idea of the shower in the But the whole idea of the shower in the But the whole idea of the shower in the gym, for example, is I just referred to gym, for example, is I just referred to gym, for example, is I just referred to it a second ago in passing. It's called it a second ago in passing. It's called it a second ago in passing. It's called the default mode network. And that is a the default mode network. And that is a the default mode network. And that is a set of structures in the brain that set of structures in the brain that set of structures in the brain that become active when you're thinking about become active when you're thinking about become active when you're thinking about nothing, when you're not trying to think nothing, when you're not trying to think nothing, when you're not trying to think about anything, when you're really about anything, when you're really about anything, when you're really present, as a matter of fact. And so, present, as a matter of fact. And so, present, as a matter of fact. And so, and we know because there are studies and we know because there are studies and we know because there are studies using fMRI machines where you put people using fMRI machines where you put people using fMRI machines where you put people if you're looking at their brains and if you're looking at their brains and if you're looking at their brains and their activities in their brains, and their activities in their brains, and their activities in their brains, and you say, "Think about nothing." And then you say, "Think about nothing." And then you say, "Think about nothing." And then you see what part of the brain actually you see what part of the brain actually you see what part of the brain actually becomes active. And that's what's called becomes active. And that's what's called becomes active. And that's what's called the default mode network. That default the default mode network. That default the default mode network. That default mode network is the way your brain is mode network is the way your brain is mode network is the way your brain is supposed to work so that you can come up supposed to work so that you can come up supposed to work so that you can come up with why with with really consider why with why with with really consider why with why with with really consider why questions. It really disproportionately questions. It really disproportionately questions. It really disproportionately activates the right hemisphere of the activates the right hemisphere of the activates the right hemisphere of the brain, which is the why side, the brain, which is the why side, the brain, which is the why side, the meaning side, the mystery side. People

meaning side, the mystery side. People meaning side, the mystery side. People in prayer, people when they're in prayer, people when they're in prayer, people when they're exercising their friendship with God, exercising their friendship with God, exercising their friendship with God, they're disproportionately using the they're disproportionately using the they're disproportionately using the right hemisphere of the brain. This is right hemisphere of the brain. This is right hemisphere of the brain. This is where the mystery actually happens. And where the mystery actually happens. And where the mystery actually happens. And by the way, Kerry, this is the reason by the way, Kerry, this is the reason by the way, Kerry, this is the reason that people who use too much technology that people who use too much technology that people who use too much technology and are scrolling and and and they think and are scrolling and and and they think and are scrolling and and and they think that the only questions that matter are that the only questions that matter are that the only questions that matter are the ones that AI can answer, those are the ones that AI can answer, those are the ones that AI can answer, those are all left brain questions. You know, the all left brain questions. You know, the all left brain questions. You know, the questions of the existence and questions of the existence and questions of the existence and relationship with God, those are right relationship with God, those are right relationship with God, those are right brain questions. And so, if you overuse brain questions. And so, if you overuse brain questions. And so, if you overuse or misuse technology, you're going to or misuse technology, you're going to or misuse technology, you're going to get less religious. get less religious. get less religious. And you're going to be you're going to And you're going to be you're going to And you're going to be you're going to Yeah, you're going to become more Yeah, you're going to become more Yeah, you're going to become more depressed, more anxious, and have less depressed, more anxious, and have less depressed, more anxious, and have less of a sense of the meaning of your life. of a sense of the meaning of your life. of a sense of the meaning of your life. And that's one of the reasons you got to And that's one of the reasons you got to And that's one of the reasons you got to put down the devices, get on your knees put down the devices, get on your knees put down the devices, get on your knees and pray, for example, or and I and pray, for example, or and I and pray, for example, or and I shouldn't say or and shouldn't say or and shouldn't say or and in the shower and in the gym and while in the shower and in the gym and while in the shower and in the gym and while you're driving your car, be thinking you're driving your car, be thinking you're driving your car, be thinking about nothing except the things that about nothing except the things that about nothing except the things that actually come into your mind, which God actually come into your mind, which God actually come into your mind, which God will put good stuff in there, but he's will put good stuff in there, but he's will put good stuff in there, but he's going to be using the right hemisphere going to be using the right hemisphere going to be using the right hemisphere in the default mode network.

in the default mode network. in the default mode network. >> So, >> So, >> So, yeah, man, this is the thing I love yeah, man, this is the thing I love yeah, man, this is the thing I love about talking with you is so many new about talking with you is so many new about talking with you is so many new thoughts pop out. So, what you're saying thoughts pop out. So, what you're saying thoughts pop out. So, what you're saying is overuse of technology decreases your is overuse of technology decreases your is overuse of technology decreases your faith and your spirituality? faith and your spirituality? faith and your spirituality? >> Yeah, so what you find is that people, >> Yeah, so what you find is that people, >> Yeah, so what you find is that people, for example, for example, for example, when people are having intense religious when people are having intense religious when people are having intense religious experiences, they're disproportionately experiences, they're disproportionately experiences, they're disproportionately using the right hemisphere of the brain. using the right hemisphere of the brain. using the right hemisphere of the brain. This is work that comes from Ian This is work that comes from Ian This is work that comes from Ian McGilchrist, the Oxford neuroscientist McGilchrist, the Oxford neuroscientist McGilchrist, the Oxford neuroscientist and psychiatrist, who has talked about and psychiatrist, who has talked about and psychiatrist, who has talked about He wrote a very important book in 2009 He wrote a very important book in 2009 He wrote a very important book in 2009 called The Master and His Emissary, that called The Master and His Emissary, that called The Master and His Emissary, that talked about this hemispheric talked about this hemispheric talked about this hemispheric lateralization. That's a fancy way of lateralization. That's a fancy way of lateralization. That's a fancy way of saying the two sides of the brain do saying the two sides of the brain do saying the two sides of the brain do different things. The right side is the different things. The right side is the different things. The right side is the why side. The The left side is the how why side. The The left side is the how why side. The The left side is the how and what side. The The right On the and what side. The The right On the and what side. The The right On the right side you say, "I want to know God right side you say, "I want to know God right side you say, "I want to know God better." On the left side you say, better." On the left side you say, better." On the left side you say, "Okay, let's figure out which church to "Okay, let's figure out which church to "Okay, let's figure out which church to go to." go to." go to." And And the answer is the Catholic And And the answer is the Catholic And And the answer is the Catholic Church. I'm kidding. Anyway, so Church. I'm kidding. Anyway, so Church. I'm kidding. Anyway, so [laughter] the [laughter] the [laughter] the And so you get the idea that And so you get the idea that And so you get the idea that >> Leahy and I, are in full alignment on >> Leahy and I, are in full alignment on >> Leahy and I, are in full alignment on that. Every time I talk to Pat, that. Every time I talk to Pat, that. Every time I talk to Pat, >> I know, we're such imperialists. But, >> I know, we're such imperialists. But, >> I know, we're such imperialists. But, you know, it's really, really important you know, it's really, really important you know, it's really, really important that we recognize that God created our that we recognize that God created our that we recognize that God created our brain for a reason, and woe be unto us brain for a reason, and woe be unto us brain for a reason, and woe be unto us if we don't use it as it's intended to if we don't use it as it's intended to if we don't use it as it's intended to be used. I mean, that's why like be used. I mean, that's why like be used. I mean, that's why like anything else when we talk about the anything else when we talk about the anything else when we talk about the temple and and and you know, your your temple and and and you know, your your temple and and and you know, your your body is a temple. I mean, that includes body is a temple. I mean, that includes body is a temple. I mean, that includes your brain, man. And and you're not your brain, man. And and you're not your brain, man. And and you're not using your temple appropriately, using your temple appropriately, using your temple appropriately, spending all day and all night looking spending all day and all night looking spending all day and all night looking at the little screen and technology and at the little screen and technology and at the little screen and technology and and you know, Googling around and using and you know, Googling around and using and you know, Googling around and using AI and all that. That's basically like AI and all that. That's basically like AI and all that. That's basically like like like eating nothing but Twinkies.

like like eating nothing but Twinkies. like like eating nothing but Twinkies. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um you're going to pay the price, and >> Um you're going to pay the price, and >> Um you're going to pay the price, and actually it's it's sinful to do, in my actually it's it's sinful to do, in my actually it's it's sinful to do, in my view. view. view. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Mhm. Okay. So, back to your morning routine then, So, back to your morning routine then, So, back to your morning routine then, you've got roughly from 7:30 till noon? you've got roughly from 7:30 till noon? you've got roughly from 7:30 till noon? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Just roughly. >> Just roughly. >> Just roughly. >> till noon. Now, there are going to be a >> till noon. Now, there are going to be a >> till noon. Now, there are going to be a couple of distractions in there. I mean, couple of distractions in there. I mean, couple of distractions in there. I mean, I live with a couple of my grandsons. I live with a couple of my grandsons. I live with a couple of my grandsons. There's going to be distractions, right? There's going to be distractions, right? There's going to be distractions, right? If I'm working at home, and if I'm If I'm working at home, and if I'm If I'm working at home, and if I'm working at the office, something's going working at the office, something's going working at the office, something's going on, you know, somebody's on the phone on, you know, somebody's on the phone on, you know, somebody's on the phone that I got to take the call, which is that I got to take the call, which is that I got to take the call, which is unusual, but that a couple of things are unusual, but that a couple of things are unusual, but that a couple of things are going to happen, but I'm going to get going to happen, but I'm going to get going to happen, but I'm going to get get 3-plus hours, and I'm going to be get 3-plus hours, and I'm going to be get 3-plus hours, and I'm going to be able to write all of the really creative able to write all of the really creative able to write all of the really creative parts of a column, or, you know, a good parts of a column, or, you know, a good parts of a column, or, you know, a good part of a book when I'm doing that, or part of a book when I'm doing that, or part of a book when I'm doing that, or lay out some slides, or structure a lay out some slides, or structure a lay out some slides, or structure a speech, or whatever I'm doing. So, I'm speech, or whatever I'm doing. So, I'm speech, or whatever I'm doing. So, I'm doing 150 talks a year outside of doing 150 talks a year outside of doing 150 talks a year outside of Harvard as well. So, I have to do that Harvard as well. So, I have to do that Harvard as well. So, I have to do that in my creative time. in my creative time. in my creative time. >> got to write those as well. >> got to write those as well. >> got to write those as well. >> I don't write them. Um, but what I do is >> I don't write them. Um, but what I do is >> I don't write them. Um, but what I do is I I lay them out, usually in PowerPoint I I lay them out, usually in PowerPoint I I lay them out, usually in PowerPoint form, and by about the fifth time form, and by about the fifth time form, and by about the fifth time through, I'm not using any notes at all. through, I'm not using any notes at all. through, I'm not using any notes at all. So, it's to make it look and and I So, it's to make it look and and I So, it's to make it look and and I structure those things rhetorically in structure those things rhetorically in structure those things rhetorically in the same way. I've studied a lot of the same way. I've studied a lot of the same way. I've studied a lot of great preachers, and what great great preachers, and what great great preachers, and what great preachers do, um, without thinking about preachers do, um, without thinking about preachers do, um, without thinking about it, is what it, is what it, is what us mere mortals need to do on purpose.

us mere mortals need to do on purpose. us mere mortals need to do on purpose. So, for example, the human brain can't So, for example, the human brain can't So, for example, the human brain can't stay focused on ideas, on a particular stay focused on ideas, on a particular stay focused on ideas, on a particular train of ideas for more than about 7 or train of ideas for more than about 7 or train of ideas for more than about 7 or 8 minutes. And that means every 7 or 8 8 minutes. And that means every 7 or 8 8 minutes. And that means every 7 or 8 minutes you need to pause. You know, you minutes you need to pause. You know, you minutes you need to pause. You know, you need to let the people who are listening need to let the people who are listening need to let the people who are listening to you up off the bike and for usually to you up off the bike and for usually to you up off the bike and for usually for about 45 to 60 seconds, and that for about 45 to 60 seconds, and that for about 45 to 60 seconds, and that means you have a you tell a joke, you means you have a you tell a joke, you means you have a you tell a joke, you tell a little story. I'll start by tell a little story. I'll start by tell a little story. I'll start by saying, "Ah, I just saw this study, you saying, "Ah, I just saw this study, you saying, "Ah, I just saw this study, you guys. You guys got to hear. It's not guys. You guys got to hear. It's not guys. You guys got to hear. It's not related to what I'm talking about, but related to what I'm talking about, but related to what I'm talking about, but I'm busting. I got to tell you about I'm busting. I got to tell you about I'm busting. I got to tell you about it." I'm giving you a break, and then it." I'm giving you a break, and then it." I'm giving you a break, and then I'm going to put you back on the bike I'm going to put you back on the bike I'm going to put you back on the bike and start back up a hill again. And and and start back up a hill again. And and and start back up a hill again. And and all of this stuff is structured, but it all of this stuff is structured, but it all of this stuff is structured, but it requires thought and creativity and requires thought and creativity and requires thought and creativity and molding and etc., etc. >> So, uh, so basically, do you have like >> So, uh, so basically, do you have like five talks that you just sort of surf five talks that you just sort of surf five talks that you just sort of surf off of, like five baseline topics and off of, like five baseline topics and off of, like five baseline topics and you're like, okay, I'm speaking in you're like, okay, I'm speaking in you're like, okay, I'm speaking in England, I'll do this one and then England, I'll do this one and then England, I'll do this one and then you're customizing it to the you're customizing it to the you're customizing it to the >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> to the to the audience, right? >> to the to the audience, right? >> to the to the audience, right? >> Yeah, so usually the lead will be >> Yeah, so usually the lead will be >> Yeah, so usually the lead will be customized. I'll often tell customized. I'll often tell customized. I'll often tell I'll often write a joke that's I'll often write a joke that's I'll often write a joke that's customized for the audience. I'm doing customized for the audience. I'm doing customized for the audience. I'm doing I've got a I've got a I've got a I've got a I've got a I've got a an event for a bunch of orthodontists.

an event for a bunch of orthodontists. an event for a bunch of orthodontists. And and so you want to hear my opening And and so you want to hear my opening And and so you want to hear my opening joke for the orthodontists? joke for the orthodontists? joke for the orthodontists? >> I want to hear it. I do. >> I want to hear it. I do. >> I want to hear it. I do. >> Okay, cuz I know there's no >> Okay, cuz I know there's no >> Okay, cuz I know there's no orthodontists who are I know you know orthodontists who are I know you know orthodontists who are I know you know uh moonlighting as pastors. Um so how do uh moonlighting as pastors. Um so how do uh moonlighting as pastors. Um so how do you know 18 months before your wife is you know 18 months before your wife is you know 18 months before your wife is going to leave you? going to leave you? going to leave you? She gets braces. She gets braces. She gets braces. >> [laughter] >> Oh, that's great. That's great. >> Oh, that's great. That's great. >> I know. It's not a good Catholic joke. >> I know. It's not a good Catholic joke. >> I know. It's not a good Catholic joke. But anyway, you get my point that But anyway, you get my point that But anyway, you get my point that >> your point. >> your point. >> your point. >> Yeah, so and there will be about five >> Yeah, so and there will be about five >> Yeah, so and there will be about five that that are in the rotation. Um that that are in the rotation. Um that that are in the rotation. Um usually there's one or two that usually there's one or two that usually there's one or two that everybody wants because they'll be just everybody wants because they'll be just everybody wants because they'll be just kind of a bread and butter talk. Um I'll kind of a bread and butter talk. Um I'll kind of a bread and butter talk. Um I'll I'll cycle one or two out and add one or I'll cycle one or two out and add one or I'll cycle one or two out and add one or two in. And and now I'm coming into a two in. And and now I'm coming into a two in. And and now I'm coming into a book season. book season. book season. So in March of 2026 is a brand new big So in March of 2026 is a brand new big So in March of 2026 is a brand new big book I've been thinking about it and book I've been thinking about it and book I've been thinking about it and working on it um really hard for the working on it um really hard for the working on it um really hard for the past 3 years. past 3 years. past 3 years. And and I'll be giving the main talk on And and I'll be giving the main talk on And and I'll be giving the main talk on that plus about three other talks that that plus about three other talks that that plus about three other talks that are related to it are related to it are related to it um that are specialized in a particular um that are specialized in a particular um that are specialized in a particular way. And then that stuff will be in the way. And then that stuff will be in the way. And then that stuff will be in the rotation for most of 2026 and a lot of rotation for most of 2026 and a lot of rotation for most of 2026 and a lot of 2027. And if the book is a big success, 2027. And if the book is a big success, 2027. And if the book is a big success, it'll go on longer than that. I'm still it'll go on longer than that. I'm still it'll go on longer than that. I'm still giving talks on From Strength to giving talks on From Strength to giving talks on From Strength to Strength, which is a book that I gave in Strength, which is a book that I gave in Strength, which is a book that I gave in 2022.

2022. 2022. >> You you might be doing that until you >> You you might be doing that until you >> You you might be doing that until you die, by the way, Arthur. die, by the way, Arthur. die, by the way, Arthur. >> Yeah, I might. I mean, it's like until I >> Yeah, I might. I mean, it's like until I >> Yeah, I might. I mean, it's like until I get to the Arthur until I pass from get to the Arthur until I pass from get to the Arthur until I pass from strength to strength euphemistically. strength to strength euphemistically. strength to strength euphemistically. Uh that's cuz people call up and say, Uh that's cuz people call up and say, Uh that's cuz people call up and say, "Can you talk come talk about that "Can you talk come talk about that "Can you talk come talk about that book?" And that book is 3 and 1/2 years book?" And that book is 3 and 1/2 years book?" And that book is 3 and 1/2 years old now. old now. old now. >> No, that's that's fantastic. Uh and >> No, that's that's fantastic. Uh and >> No, that's that's fantastic. Uh and there we do have a lot of author pastors there we do have a lot of author pastors there we do have a lot of author pastors and a lot of people who want to write and a lot of people who want to write and a lot of people who want to write books here. How much do your columns books here. How much do your columns books here. How much do your columns that you're writing and again, you have that you're writing and again, you have that you're writing and again, you have the blessing of seeing whether 200,000 the blessing of seeing whether 200,000 the blessing of seeing whether 200,000 people read it or 2 million read it. But people read it or 2 million read it. But people read it or 2 million read it. But how much of that will make its way how much of that will make its way how much of that will make its way obviously transformed into a book? Does obviously transformed into a book? Does obviously transformed into a book? Does that become the core of the ideas, some that become the core of the ideas, some that become the core of the ideas, some of the expression of the ideas or when of the expression of the ideas or when of the expression of the ideas or when you sit down to write a book are you you sit down to write a book are you you sit down to write a book are you kind of starting from scratch? kind of starting from scratch? kind of starting from scratch? >> So, I'll use paragraphs from columns in >> So, I'll use paragraphs from columns in >> So, I'll use paragraphs from columns in books. books. books. Um Um Um but I've learned not to use columns. I but I've learned not to use columns. I but I've learned not to use columns. I used to think I had this idea Carey. I used to think I had this idea Carey. I used to think I had this idea Carey. I had this had this had this conceit that what I could do is I could conceit that what I could do is I could conceit that what I could do is I could talk about something a little bit and talk about something a little bit and talk about something a little bit and sort of get the idea for it. And most sort of get the idea for it. And most sort of get the idea for it. And most pastors and professors, what they have pastors and professors, what they have pastors and professors, what they have in common is they don't know really what in common is they don't know really what in common is they don't know really what they think until they're talking about they think until they're talking about they think until they're talking about it.

it. it. You know, that's a it's a funny thing. I You know, that's a it's a funny thing. I You know, that's a it's a funny thing. I mean you as a pastor that you found you mean you as a pastor that you found you mean you as a pastor that you found you talk about something in front of a talk about something in front of a talk about something in front of a congregation and you really get into the congregation and you really get into the congregation and you really get into the cuz you're looking at them, right? And cuz you're looking at them, right? And cuz you're looking at them, right? And you're getting a lot of feedback and so you're getting a lot of feedback and so you're getting a lot of feedback and so you're writing it actually you should you're writing it actually you should you're writing it actually you should give co-authorship credit to the give co-authorship credit to the give co-authorship credit to the congregation. congregation. congregation. Cuz that's kind of where and that's and Cuz that's kind of where and that's and Cuz that's kind of where and that's and there's a lot of learning literature on there's a lot of learning literature on there's a lot of learning literature on this about how this works. And then I this about how this works. And then I this about how this works. And then I thought I would turn it into a column thought I would turn it into a column thought I would turn it into a column and then the columns I would just kind and then the columns I would just kind and then the columns I would just kind of make into a book. And I do every of make into a book. And I do every of make into a book. And I do every couple of years publish an edited volume couple of years publish an edited volume couple of years publish an edited volume of my most popular columns with the of my most popular columns with the of my most popular columns with the Harvard Business Review Press. That's a Harvard Business Review Press. That's a Harvard Business Review Press. That's a that's not the same thing as my as my that's not the same thing as my as my that's not the same thing as my as my big original books with with Penguin big original books with with Penguin big original books with with Penguin Random House. Random House. Random House. And but it doesn't work that way for the And but it doesn't work that way for the And but it doesn't work that way for the big original books. It turns out that big original books. It turns out that big original books. It turns out that they're not very good when I do that they're not very good when I do that they're not very good when I do that that a column is a very different that a column is a very different that a column is a very different writing process. A column is about 14 writing process. A column is about 14 writing process. A column is about 14 paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs and and it I never throw stuff away when I'm and it I never throw stuff away when I'm and it I never throw stuff away when I'm writing. I I mean I I writing. I I mean I I writing. I I mean I I I don't throw away, you know, entire I don't throw away, you know, entire I don't throw away, you know, entire sections. But books each book is written sections. But books each book is written sections. But books each book is written three or four times. You know, I'll get three or four times. You know, I'll get three or four times. You know, I'll get rid of whole chapters. I'll just trash rid of whole chapters. I'll just trash rid of whole chapters. I'll just trash whole sections of these particular whole sections of these particular whole sections of these particular things. And what I find is if I try to things. And what I find is if I try to things. And what I find is if I try to make a column into a section of a make a column into a section of a make a column into a section of a chapter, I'm kind of shoehorning it in.

chapter, I'm kind of shoehorning it in. chapter, I'm kind of shoehorning it in. And I've written books like that. And I've written books like that. And I've written books like that. They're not my best books is the way They're not my best books is the way They're not my best books is the way that that works. And so that that works. And so that that works. And so I have to think of a book is really a I have to think of a book is really a I have to think of a book is really a 75,000 word expression. Something that 75,000 word expression. Something that 75,000 word expression. Something that has to be 75,000 words as opposed to 50 has to be 75,000 words as opposed to 50 has to be 75,000 words as opposed to 50 columns. It's not going to be 50 columns. It's not going to be 50 columns. It's not going to be 50 columns. They're just not going to be columns. They're just not going to be columns. They're just not going to be they're not going to knit together. It's they're not going to knit together. It's they're not going to knit together. It's not going to have coherence. And people not going to have coherence. And people not going to have coherence. And people going to notice. going to notice. going to notice. >> Yeah, I I you know, and and and I guess >> Yeah, I I you know, and and and I guess >> Yeah, I I you know, and and and I guess I'm asking this because underneath all I'm asking this because underneath all I'm asking this because underneath all of these questions of these questions of these questions is sort of a our attention span is sort of a our attention span is sort of a our attention span Arthur our attention span our ability to Arthur our attention span our ability to Arthur our attention span our ability to do long-form thinking. It's been 5 years do long-form thinking. It's been 5 years do long-form thinking. It's been 5 years since I wrote my last book at your best. since I wrote my last book at your best. since I wrote my last book at your best. And And And I know I'm 5 years older, but just the I know I'm 5 years older, but just the I know I'm 5 years older, but just the impact of 5 more years of short-form impact of 5 more years of short-form impact of 5 more years of short-form content, quick videos, scrolling. And I content, quick videos, scrolling. And I content, quick videos, scrolling. And I mean, I have limits on this phone and mean, I have limits on this phone and mean, I have limits on this phone and everything really took its toll. And I'm everything really took its toll. And I'm everything really took its toll. And I'm I'm, you know, I've had other things our I'm, you know, I've had other things our I'm, you know, I've had other things our company has really grown. And so, my company has really grown. And so, my company has really grown. And so, my green zone, my morning time as is yours green zone, my morning time as is yours green zone, my morning time as is yours is was spent less over the last couple is was spent less over the last couple is was spent less over the last couple years years years working in that deep thought. And so, I working in that deep thought. And so, I working in that deep thought. And so, I made it I'd love to talk to you about made it I'd love to talk to you about made it I'd love to talk to you about the use of AI in writing books, etc. I the use of AI in writing books, etc. I the use of AI in writing books, etc. I made it a goal that I consulted AI on made it a goal that I consulted AI on made it a goal that I consulted AI on like, "Hey, can you clarify this or I'm like, "Hey, can you clarify this or I'm like, "Hey, can you clarify this or I'm thinking this?" But like I wrote all my thinking this?" But like I wrote all my thinking this?" But like I wrote all my my first draft came in at 51,000 words, my first draft came in at 51,000 words, my first draft came in at 51,000 words, which I just sent off today to the which I just sent off today to the which I just sent off today to the editor.

editor. editor. >> Congratulations, Carey. That's >> Congratulations, Carey. That's >> Congratulations, Carey. That's >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Uh it's a great day, isn't it? >> Uh it's a great day, isn't it? >> Uh it's a great day, isn't it? >> It is a great day. I was so excited. I >> It is a great day. I was so excited. I >> It is a great day. I was so excited. I don't know what that is, but like it's don't know what that is, but like it's don't know what that is, but like it's like Ah, there it is. It's you know, like Ah, there it is. It's you know, like Ah, there it is. It's you know, it's going to be very different by the it's going to be very different by the it's going to be very different by the time it's published, but like time it's published, but like time it's published, but like >> Yeah. So, that's the first draft. Is >> Yeah. So, that's the first draft. Is >> Yeah. So, that's the first draft. Is that the first draft? that the first draft? that the first draft? >> First draft, yeah. >> First draft, yeah. >> First draft, yeah. >> Okay. So, you're going to get it back >> Okay. So, you're going to get it back >> Okay. So, you're going to get it back and be in the depths of despair. So, is and be in the depths of despair. So, is and be in the depths of despair. So, is everybody watching us, all the creative everybody watching us, all the creative everybody watching us, all the creative pastors who are also book writers pastors who are also book writers pastors who are also book writers watching us? You know, you remember watching us? You know, you remember watching us? You know, you remember Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's five stages of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's five stages of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's five stages of death and dying? That's like the five death and dying? That's like the five death and dying? That's like the five stages of authorship. It is. Right? I stages of authorship. It is. Right? I stages of authorship. It is. Right? I mean, there's there's there's mean, there's there's there's mean, there's there's there's denial, there's rage, there's denial, there's rage, there's denial, there's rage, there's bargaining, you know, and bargaining, you know, and bargaining, you know, and finally at the end there's finally at the end there's finally at the end there's acceptance, you know, and and and acceptance, you know, and and and acceptance, you know, and and and finally at the end. And it's funny finally at the end. And it's funny finally at the end. And it's funny because, you know, you turn in the final because, you know, you turn in the final because, you know, you turn in the final version like this is got man, version like this is got man, version like this is got man, everybody's going to hate this and I everybody's going to hate this and I everybody's going to hate this and I can't believe how crummy this is. And can't believe how crummy this is. And can't believe how crummy this is. And then 2 years later you're like, how come then 2 years later you're like, how come then 2 years later you're like, how come I can't write good books like that? I can't write good books like that? I can't write good books like that? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I had that. The editor that I'm using >> I had that. The editor that I'm using >> I had that. The editor that I'm using for this book I hired cuz he was so good for this book I hired cuz he was so good for this book I hired cuz he was so good on the last book. It was with Penguin.

on the last book. It was with Penguin. on the last book. It was with Penguin. Penguin had hired him to work on it. And Penguin had hired him to work on it. And Penguin had hired him to work on it. And we might self pub this one for a variety we might self pub this one for a variety we might self pub this one for a variety of reasons, but anyway, Penguin has an of reasons, but anyway, Penguin has an of reasons, but anyway, Penguin has an option, so we'll see see option, so we'll see see option, so we'll see see >> Penguin is great. Penguin is terrific as >> Penguin is great. Penguin is terrific as >> Penguin is great. Penguin is terrific as a whole thing, but but publishing is a whole thing, but but publishing is a whole thing, but but publishing is changing. Publishing is changing. changing. Publishing is changing. changing. Publishing is changing. >> and we want to because this is so time >> and we want to because this is so time >> and we want to because this is so time bound as an AI book, we're thinking it bound as an AI book, we're thinking it bound as an AI book, we're thinking it might be better to self pub and just might be better to self pub and just might be better to self pub and just >> So that's your new book is AI? >> So that's your new book is AI? >> So that's your new book is AI? >> It's AI in the future church author is >> It's AI in the future church author is >> It's AI in the future church author is the the the idea. And it's not so much it's I'll idea. And it's not so much it's I'll idea. And it's not so much it's I'll send you a copy as soon as it's, you send you a copy as soon as it's, you send you a copy as soon as it's, you know, reasonable. It's not so much know, reasonable. It's not so much know, reasonable. It's not so much about, you know, oh, here's the best about, you know, oh, here's the best about, you know, oh, here's the best prompt or, you know, you should be all prompt or, you know, you should be all prompt or, you know, you should be all in on Anthropic not Open AI. It's not in on Anthropic not Open AI. It's not in on Anthropic not Open AI. It's not that. It's really all about that. It's really all about that. It's really all about the impact. Like if there's going to be the impact. Like if there's going to be the impact. Like if there's going to be societal disruptions, if there's going societal disruptions, if there's going societal disruptions, if there's going to be the white collar bloodbath we're to be the white collar bloodbath we're to be the white collar bloodbath we're seeing, how does that change the giving seeing, how does that change the giving seeing, how does that change the giving model at churches, you know, what does model at churches, you know, what does model at churches, you know, what does that do to people's mental health? that do to people's mental health? that do to people's mental health? You know, if we have more and more You know, if we have more and more You know, if we have more and more artificial short form content and sort artificial short form content and sort artificial short form content and sort of the the of the the of the the the waves that might hit us as a society the waves that might hit us as a society the waves that might hit us as a society and then what is the church's response?

and then what is the church's response? and then what is the church's response? Like if you're pastoring a local church, Like if you're pastoring a local church, Like if you're pastoring a local church, what does that do to your ministry? And what does that do to your ministry? And what does that do to your ministry? And the good news is the good news is the good news is I think this is one thing seminary did I think this is one thing seminary did I think this is one thing seminary did prepare you for as the world becomes prepare you for as the world becomes prepare you for as the world becomes more artificial, we need to become more more artificial, we need to become more more artificial, we need to become more human. Connecting people to God and to human. Connecting people to God and to human. Connecting people to God and to each other. So that's sort of the each other. So that's sort of the each other. So that's sort of the general outline of the book, but it's general outline of the book, but it's general outline of the book, but it's 51,000. 51,000. 51,000. I want to make it short because I'm I want to make it short because I'm I want to make it short because I'm convinced people's attention spans have convinced people's attention spans have convinced people's attention spans have dropped. So, I'm hoping to cut 10,000 dropped. So, I'm hoping to cut 10,000 dropped. So, I'm hoping to cut 10,000 words, but I'm like, "Ooh, they're all words, but I'm like, "Ooh, they're all words, but I'm like, "Ooh, they're all pretty nice right now." pretty nice right now." pretty nice right now." >> Yeah, I agree. >> Yeah, I agree. >> Yeah, I agree. That's great. That's right. And I think That's great. That's right. And I think That's great. That's right. And I think you're right on the money, by the way, you're right on the money, by the way, you're right on the money, by the way, because you know, my new book is about because you know, my new book is about because you know, my new book is about the meaning of life. the meaning of life. the meaning of life. Why it's harder and harder to find and Why it's harder and harder to find and Why it's harder and harder to find and what we do need to actually do to find what we do need to actually do to find what we do need to actually do to find it. And and it it follows this to a very it. And and it it follows this to a very it. And and it it follows this to a very large extent. I mean, the truth of the large extent. I mean, the truth of the large extent. I mean, the truth of the matter is that we are being pushed into matter is that we are being pushed into matter is that we are being pushed into this left hemispheric world of analysis, this left hemispheric world of analysis, this left hemispheric world of analysis, efficiency, tasks, technology. efficiency, tasks, technology. efficiency, tasks, technology. All the how-to and what we're kind of All the how-to and what we're kind of All the how-to and what we're kind of going into the engineering universe. going into the engineering universe. going into the engineering universe. We're all getting pushed into the We're all getting pushed into the We're all getting pushed into the engineering universe. And And that's engineering universe. And And that's engineering universe. And And that's true in sort of every area of life. true in sort of every area of life. true in sort of every area of life. The meaning of life is in the right The meaning of life is in the right The meaning of life is in the right hemisphere, which is in the why. The hemisphere, which is in the why. The hemisphere, which is in the why. The mystery and meaning are in and the love mystery and meaning are in and the love mystery and meaning are in and the love and the happiness, by the way, that we and the happiness, by the way, that we and the happiness, by the way, that we get in life is from the why side, the get in life is from the why side, the get in life is from the why side, the deep why. And I don't mean the like deep why. And I don't mean the like deep why. And I don't mean the like the why that you could type into a the why that you could type into a the why that you could type into a Google search bar and get a meaningful Google search bar and get a meaningful Google search bar and get a meaningful answer. I'm talking about, "Why am I answer. I'm talking about, "Why am I answer. I'm talking about, "Why am I alive? Why does God love me? Why would I alive? Why does God love me? Why would I alive? Why does God love me? Why would I give my life?" And you put that into AI give my life?" And you put that into AI give my life?" And you put that into AI and you'll get nothing but sycophantic and you'll get nothing but sycophantic and you'll get nothing but sycophantic garbage and nonsense. And and that's the garbage and nonsense. And and that's the garbage and nonsense. And and that's the key.

key. key. >> And AI >> And AI >> And AI >> I mean, if AI will give you something >> I mean, if AI will give you something >> I mean, if AI will give you something unusable, it's not a right hemisphere unusable, it's not a right hemisphere unusable, it's not a right hemisphere question. And and that's what, you know, question. And and that's what, you know, question. And and that's what, you know, Sunday morning is all about. Is why Sunday morning is all about. Is why Sunday morning is all about. Is why questions in the right hemisphere. It's questions in the right hemisphere. It's questions in the right hemisphere. It's right hemispheric experiences. And if right hemispheric experiences. And if right hemispheric experiences. And if we're consuming those experiences we're consuming those experiences we're consuming those experiences entirely using technology, it's a entirely using technology, it's a entirely using technology, it's a problem. You know, we actually need to problem. You know, we actually need to problem. You know, we actually need to be more human, having a more communal be more human, having a more communal be more human, having a more communal human experience. I would actually human experience. I would actually human experience. I would actually I would I might actually go so far as to I would I might actually go so far as to I would I might actually go so far as to prohibit devices in church. prohibit devices in church. prohibit devices in church. Just like I would prohibit devices in Just like I would prohibit devices in Just like I would prohibit devices in school. For exactly that reason. school. For exactly that reason. school. For exactly that reason. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Yeah, you know, I I Yeah, you know, I I Yeah, you know, I I I'm curious about about where all of I'm curious about about where all of I'm curious about about where all of this lands. And when you think about this lands. And when you think about this lands. And when you think about cognitive atrophy or brain rot, as we cognitive atrophy or brain rot, as we cognitive atrophy or brain rot, as we talked about, talked about, talked about, what do you what do do think AI and the what do you what do do think AI and the what do you what do do think AI and the short-form content is doing to our short-form content is doing to our short-form content is doing to our brains? brains? brains? >> So, >> So, >> So, >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> AI is an ideal adjunct to the left >> AI is an ideal adjunct to the left >> AI is an ideal adjunct to the left hemisphere of your brain. This is a hemisphere of your brain. This is a hemisphere of your brain. This is a thing I did I did a a big summit on AI 3 thing I did I did a a big summit on AI 3 thing I did I did a a big summit on AI 3 weeks ago with Tony Robbins. And weeks ago with Tony Robbins. And weeks ago with Tony Robbins. And and my part of the summit was AI and and my part of the summit was AI and and my part of the summit was AI and happiness. Of course, I mean, what is he happiness. Of course, I mean, what is he happiness. Of course, I mean, what is he going to have me talk about, you know?

going to have me talk about, you know? going to have me talk about, you know? How to write code? I don't think so. My How to write code? I don't think so. My How to write code? I don't think so. My son actually does that for a living. son actually does that for a living. son actually does that for a living. >> Same here. I got a son who does that for >> Same here. I got a son who does that for >> Same here. I got a son who does that for a living. a living. a living. >> That's good. They'll take care of us in >> That's good. They'll take care of us in >> That's good. They'll take care of us in our dotage, right, Carey? our dotage, right, Carey? our dotage, right, Carey? >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Cuz, you know, being a pastor and >> Cuz, you know, being a pastor and >> Cuz, you know, being a pastor and professor is such a high-paying professor is such a high-paying professor is such a high-paying high-paying professions, right? high-paying professions, right? high-paying professions, right? >> Exactly. [laughter] >> Exactly. [laughter] >> Exactly. [laughter] >> So, >> So, >> So, it's a AI is a great adjunct to the the it's a AI is a great adjunct to the the it's a AI is a great adjunct to the the how-to and what parts of your brain. how-to and what parts of your brain. how-to and what parts of your brain. I mean, it will do mundane tasks better I mean, it will do mundane tasks better I mean, it will do mundane tasks better than you do if you actually learn how to than you do if you actually learn how to than you do if you actually learn how to use the skills. And what that will do is use the skills. And what that will do is use the skills. And what that will do is it'll free up a bunch of your time, and it'll free up a bunch of your time, and it'll free up a bunch of your time, and that's great. That's great. The problem that's great. That's great. The problem that's great. That's great. The problem is we tend to waste that time on stupid is we tend to waste that time on stupid is we tend to waste that time on stupid nonsense like scrolling Instagram and nonsense like scrolling Instagram and nonsense like scrolling Instagram and and watching YouTube shorts and and just and watching YouTube shorts and and just and watching YouTube shorts and and just frittering away our time. You have to frittering away our time. You have to frittering away our time. You have to use that time productively for AI to use that time productively for AI to use that time productively for AI to make you happier. make you happier. make you happier. So, that's important, and that means in So, that's important, and that means in So, that's important, and that means in communion with other people, in communion with other people, in communion with other people, in communion with God. So, working on faith communion with God. So, working on faith communion with God. So, working on faith and family and friendship and working in and family and friendship and working in and family and friendship and working in a way that serves other people. Those a way that serves other people. Those a way that serves other people. Those are the four things to do. Those are the are the four things to do. Those are the are the four things to do. Those are the right hemispheric activities that we right hemispheric activities that we right hemispheric activities that we really need to be paying attention to in really need to be paying attention to in really need to be paying attention to in the extra time that we have. The second the extra time that we have. The second the extra time that we have. The second thing is really important to keep in thing is really important to keep in thing is really important to keep in mind that I pointed out with this thing mind that I pointed out with this thing mind that I pointed out with this thing with Tony is that that if you use it as with Tony is that that if you use it as with Tony is that that if you use it as an adjunct to the right hemisphere of an adjunct to the right hemisphere of an adjunct to the right hemisphere of your brain, you're going to get your brain, you're going to get your brain, you're going to get depressed, anxious, lonely, and you're depressed, anxious, lonely, and you're depressed, anxious, lonely, and you're not going to like your life at all. And not going to like your life at all. And not going to like your life at all. And that means that if you use AI as your that means that if you use AI as your that means that if you use AI as your therapist, as your girlfriend, or as therapist, as your girlfriend, or as therapist, as your girlfriend, or as your buddy, your buddy, your buddy, those are the three things that people those are the three things that people those are the three things that people do where they substitute for actually do where they substitute for actually do where they substitute for actually human beings and they

human beings and they human beings and they you might be able to pass the Turing and you might be able to pass the Turing and you might be able to pass the Turing and and say, "Wow, this is just like a and say, "Wow, this is just like a and say, "Wow, this is just like a girlfriend who really likes me and pays girlfriend who really likes me and pays girlfriend who really likes me and pays a lot of attention to me." But your a lot of attention to me." But your a lot of attention to me." But your brain knows. Because your brain The one brain knows. Because your brain The one brain knows. Because your brain The one thing you can't simulate is the meaning thing you can't simulate is the meaning thing you can't simulate is the meaning of life. That's what this brand new book of life. That's what this brand new book of life. That's what this brand new book that I've got as it We're living, man. that I've got as it We're living, man. that I've got as it We're living, man. We're living in a simulation. We're We're living in a simulation. We're We're living in a simulation. We're living in the Matrix. All day long. living in the Matrix. All day long. living in the Matrix. All day long. Zooming, work, um looking at social Zooming, work, um looking at social Zooming, work, um looking at social media, dating online, video gaming, media, dating online, video gaming, media, dating online, video gaming, YouTube, podcast. This is all the YouTube, podcast. This is all the YouTube, podcast. This is all the Matrix. Cuz it's all a simulated life Matrix. Cuz it's all a simulated life Matrix. Cuz it's all a simulated life and that's desiccating the right and that's desiccating the right and that's desiccating the right hemisphere. It's alienating us from God. hemisphere. It's alienating us from God. hemisphere. It's alienating us from God. It's ruining our relationships and the It's ruining our relationships and the It's ruining our relationships and the result is that entirely explains the result is that entirely explains the result is that entirely explains the explosion of depression and anxiety for explosion of depression and anxiety for explosion of depression and anxiety for people under 35. It's entirely the lack people under 35. It's entirely the lack people under 35. It's entirely the lack of right hemispheric activity. of right hemispheric activity. of right hemispheric activity. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. What do you you know, your classes at What do you you know, your classes at What do you you know, your classes at Harvard have wait lists. People just Harvard have wait lists. People just Harvard have wait lists. People just really trying to get in and they're not really trying to get in and they're not really trying to get in and they're not teaching you, you know, how to become uh teaching you, you know, how to become uh teaching you, you know, how to become uh uh you know, an investor. It's not uh you know, an investor. It's not uh you know, an investor. It's not You're not giving people the hard You're not giving people the hard You're not giving people the hard skills. You're doing all of the meaning skills. You're doing all of the meaning skills. You're doing all of the meaning of life philosophical soul work.

of life philosophical soul work. of life philosophical soul work. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. That's right. That's right. That's right. >> learning about the hunger? >> learning about the hunger? >> learning about the hunger? >> The hunger is is really clear that you >> The hunger is is really clear that you >> The hunger is is really clear that you that the what we can do with respect to that the what we can do with respect to that the what we can do with respect to our efficiency and our our our economic our efficiency and our our our economic our efficiency and our our our economic effectiveness is not a substitute for effectiveness is not a substitute for effectiveness is not a substitute for what we truly crave. what we truly crave. what we truly crave. What we really want. But that's not a What we really want. But that's not a What we really want. But that's not a new new new finding. I mean, Thomas Aquinas said finding. I mean, Thomas Aquinas said finding. I mean, Thomas Aquinas said that in 1265 in the Summa Theologia. that in 1265 in the Summa Theologia. that in 1265 in the Summa Theologia. That he said that that we want God. That he said that that we want God. That he said that that we want God. But we will accept substitutes because But we will accept substitutes because But we will accept substitutes because we're venal and fallen. And so we look we're venal and fallen. And so we look we're venal and fallen. And so we look for things in the world that have these for things in the world that have these for things in the world that have these kind of divine characteristics. kind of divine characteristics. kind of divine characteristics. He said that they're fourfold. It's a He said that they're fourfold. It's a He said that they're fourfold. It's a very interesting thing. Thomas Aquinas very interesting thing. Thomas Aquinas very interesting thing. Thomas Aquinas was really the greatest behavioral was really the greatest behavioral was really the greatest behavioral scientist scientist scientist of his time, maybe of any time. And he of his time, maybe of any time. And he of his time, maybe of any time. And he said the four idols that we Cuz I said the four idols that we Cuz I said the four idols that we Cuz I idolatry is when we when we give our our idolatry is when we when we give our our idolatry is when we when we give our our our our metaphysical love and and our our metaphysical love and and our our metaphysical love and and attention to anything that's not God. attention to anything that's not God. attention to anything that's not God. And he said that we look at money and And he said that we look at money and And he said that we look at money and power and pleasure and honor, we look at power and pleasure and honor, we look at power and pleasure and honor, we look at those things as a substitute for God and those things as a substitute for God and those things as a substitute for God and chase those things, but all we're really chase those things, but all we're really chase those things, but all we're really doing is we're falling into this left doing is we're falling into this left doing is we're falling into this left hemispheric trap. We're in the right hemispheric trap. We're in the right hemispheric trap. We're in the right hemisphere of the brain, and not to be hemisphere of the brain, and not to be hemisphere of the brain, and not to be too neurological about it, but that's too neurological about it, but that's too neurological about it, but that's kind of geographically how it works. And kind of geographically how it works. And kind of geographically how it works. And in more theological terms, we're looking in more theological terms, we're looking in more theological terms, we're looking for the we're beguiled by the dark one's for the we're beguiled by the dark one's for the we're beguiled by the dark one's idols that are put into our lives that idols that are put into our lives that idols that are put into our lives that are inadequate substitutes for what we are inadequate substitutes for what we are inadequate substitutes for what we really, really crave. This is how this really, really crave. This is how this really, really crave. This is how this works. And And that's a really important works. And And that's a really important works. And And that's a really important thing. In a In a secular sense, that's thing. In a In a secular sense, that's thing. In a In a secular sense, that's why people are interested in my classes, why people are interested in my classes, why people are interested in my classes, because I'm all about love and meaning.

because I'm all about love and meaning. because I'm all about love and meaning. My classes are about love and meaning. My classes are about love and meaning. My classes are about love and meaning. They're not about about success and They're not about about success and They're not about about success and money and power and fame. That's not money and power and fame. That's not money and power and fame. That's not what they're about. They're about the what they're about. They're about the what they're about. They're about the love and meaning that people actually love and meaning that people actually love and meaning that people actually crave. And And inevitably, crave. And And inevitably, crave. And And inevitably, they want to know a lot more about faith they want to know a lot more about faith they want to know a lot more about faith and about the supernatural and and about the supernatural and and about the supernatural and transcendental backing for all these transcendental backing for all these transcendental backing for all these things and the creator and the things and the creator and the things and the creator and the originator of all these things that we originator of all these things that we originator of all these things that we really wanted, because, as we all know, really wanted, because, as we all know, really wanted, because, as we all know, the hunger for something presupposes its the hunger for something presupposes its the hunger for something presupposes its object. If you're thirsty, it suggests object. If you're thirsty, it suggests object. If you're thirsty, it suggests that water exists. And if you crave that water exists. And if you crave that water exists. And if you crave ultimate supernatural meaning, it ultimate supernatural meaning, it ultimate supernatural meaning, it suggests, "Oh my goodness, that God suggests, "Oh my goodness, that God suggests, "Oh my goodness, that God exists." And that's the conclusion a lot exists." And that's the conclusion a lot exists." And that's the conclusion a lot of my students come to. of my students come to. of my students come to. >> Do Do you get pushback from your >> Do Do you get pushback from your >> Do Do you get pushback from your colleagues for teaching subjects like colleagues for teaching subjects like colleagues for teaching subjects like this? I mean, obviously you have a this? I mean, obviously you have a this? I mean, obviously you have a reputation now that's global, but even reputation now that's global, but even reputation now that's global, but even think back a few years when you started think back a few years when you started think back a few years when you started this. Did they kind of like, "What are this. Did they kind of like, "What are this. Did they kind of like, "What are you doing?" you doing?" you doing?" >> Never. >> Never. >> Never. >> that or not really? >> that or not really? >> that or not really? >> Never. Never. Never. Never. Never. On >> Never. Never. Never. Never. Never. On >> Never. Never. Never. Never. Never. On the contrary, my my my colleagues sit in the contrary, my my my colleagues sit in the contrary, my my my colleagues sit in on my classes, too. They're really on my classes, too. They're really on my classes, too. They're really interested in this material. interested in this material. interested in this material. Cuz this is what we all want. Now, Cuz this is what we all want. Now, Cuz this is what we all want. Now, again, this is not woo-woo. I don't do again, this is not woo-woo. I don't do again, this is not woo-woo. I don't do this from, you know, the autodidact this from, you know, the autodidact this from, you know, the autodidact self-taught self-taught self-taught self-improvement influencer self-improvement influencer self-improvement influencer >> YouTube expert >> YouTube expert >> YouTube expert >> Yeah, no, I mean, it's like a >> Yeah, no, I mean, it's like a >> Yeah, no, I mean, it's like a I I suffered through a PhD so my I I suffered through a PhD so my I I suffered through a PhD so my students don't have to, basically. I students don't have to, basically. I students don't have to, basically. I mean, it's a I'm a behavioral scientist mean, it's a I'm a behavioral scientist mean, it's a I'm a behavioral scientist and I've retrained over the past 7 years and I've retrained over the past 7 years and I've retrained over the past 7 years in neuroscience as well because anymore in neuroscience as well because anymore in neuroscience as well because anymore everybody knows in my field that everybody knows in my field that everybody knows in my field that psychology is effectively biology, psychology is effectively biology, psychology is effectively biology, right? Which again does not weaken God's right? Which again does not weaken God's right? Which again does not weaken God's hand in this

hand in this hand in this on the contrary strengthens God's hand on the contrary strengthens God's hand on the contrary strengthens God's hand in this cuz you know, he's the in this cuz you know, he's the in this cuz you know, he's the originator of all these things including originator of all these things including originator of all these things including our brains and minds. And so and so that our brains and minds. And so and so that our brains and minds. And so and so that my my colleagues are super interested in my my colleagues are super interested in my my colleagues are super interested in and they appreciate the fact that I talk and they appreciate the fact that I talk and they appreciate the fact that I talk about these things of eternal about these things of eternal about these things of eternal significance in a very very scientific significance in a very very scientific significance in a very very scientific way but weaving in the wisdom weaving in way but weaving in the wisdom weaving in way but weaving in the wisdom weaving in the theology weaving in the philosophy the theology weaving in the philosophy the theology weaving in the philosophy because those things actually originate because those things actually originate because those things actually originate the questions. Neuroscience gives us the the questions. Neuroscience gives us the the questions. Neuroscience gives us the structures and mechanisms and psychology structures and mechanisms and psychology structures and mechanisms and psychology and behavioral economics give us the and behavioral economics give us the and behavioral economics give us the experiments to test out different ways experiments to test out different ways experiments to test out different ways of living and habits to of living and habits to of living and habits to make better ideas come to life in our make better ideas come to life in our make better ideas come to life in our lives. lives. lives. >> So this is interesting. You have peers >> So this is interesting. You have peers >> So this is interesting. You have peers sitting in on your classes. You've got sitting in on your classes. You've got sitting in on your classes. You've got weight lists for the courses that you weight lists for the courses that you weight lists for the courses that you offer. Meanwhile, you know, offer. Meanwhile, you know, offer. Meanwhile, you know, most pastors aren't trained in most pastors aren't trained in most pastors aren't trained in neuroscience and don't have a doctorate neuroscience and don't have a doctorate neuroscience and don't have a doctorate but they have got some education behind but they have got some education behind but they have got some education behind them. But there's a lot of churches them. But there's a lot of churches them. But there's a lot of churches sitting empty. The majority of churches sitting empty. The majority of churches sitting empty. The majority of churches are on the decline sadly not the are on the decline sadly not the are on the decline sadly not the upswing. We are seeing a real upswing. We are seeing a real upswing. We are seeing a real resurgence. You I'm sure you've heard resurgence. You I'm sure you've heard resurgence. You I'm sure you've heard about it in Gen Z attending church their about it in Gen Z attending church their about it in Gen Z attending church their spirituality, Bible app usage, paper spirituality, Bible app usage, paper spirituality, Bible app usage, paper Bibles being sold at record levels, etc.

Bibles being sold at record levels, etc. Bibles being sold at record levels, etc. etc. Even Christian music is on the rise etc. Even Christian music is on the rise etc. Even Christian music is on the rise which is amazing. which is amazing. which is amazing. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But like you know, if if you think about >> But like you know, if if you think about >> But like you know, if if you think about it, why is there not wait list only at it, why is there not wait list only at it, why is there not wait list only at every church? Like we're sitting on this every church? Like we're sitting on this every church? Like we're sitting on this stuff. So I'd love to know if you were stuff. So I'd love to know if you were stuff. So I'd love to know if you were consulting with pastors consulting with pastors consulting with pastors based on your understanding of the based on your understanding of the based on your understanding of the church and you're there daily in the church and you're there daily in the church and you're there daily in the Catholic context but I'm sure you've had Catholic context but I'm sure you've had Catholic context but I'm sure you've had your share of Protestant churches as your share of Protestant churches as your share of Protestant churches as well. What what would you tell us that well. What what would you tell us that well. What what would you tell us that we might be missing or not seeing or we might be missing or not seeing or we might be missing or not seeing or need to rethink? need to rethink? need to rethink? >> Yeah, I mean it would it's it's >> Yeah, I mean it would it's it's >> Yeah, I mean it would it's it's incredible hubris on my part to to incredible hubris on my part to to incredible hubris on my part to to suggest anything like that. But I do suggest anything like that. But I do suggest anything like that. But I do actually have a background on both actually have a background on both actually have a background on both sides. I was raised evangelical. Um and sides. I was raised evangelical. Um and sides. I was raised evangelical. Um and I converted as a teenager. It was my I converted as a teenager. It was my I converted as a teenager. It was my adolescent rebellion, right? adolescent rebellion, right? adolescent rebellion, right? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But I was raised in a in a strong >> But I was raised in a in a strong >> But I was raised in a in a strong evangelical tradition. Both I had evangelical tradition. Both I had evangelical tradition. Both I had grandparents on both sides were grandparents on both sides were grandparents on both sides were missionaries. My my grandfather was the missionaries. My my grandfather was the missionaries. My my grandfather was the the Methodist mission school headmaster the Methodist mission school headmaster the Methodist mission school headmaster at the in the Navajo Nation where my at the in the Navajo Nation where my at the in the Navajo Nation where my father was born. And then he was the father was born. And then he was the father was born. And then he was the Dean of Students at Wheaton College. Dean of Students at Wheaton College. Dean of Students at Wheaton College. So my Yeah, so he was sort of So my Yeah, so he was sort of So my Yeah, so he was sort of evangelical royalty. And evangelical royalty. And evangelical royalty. And and my mother was and my mother was and my mother was was brought up in the Southern Baptist was brought up in the Southern Baptist was brought up in the Southern Baptist tradition. So when I I tradition. So when I I tradition. So when I I when I converted to Catholicism at 16, when I converted to Catholicism at 16, when I converted to Catholicism at 16, they my parents kind of shrugged and they my parents kind of shrugged and they my parents kind of shrugged and said, "I guess it's better than drugs."

said, "I guess it's better than drugs." said, "I guess it's better than drugs." You know. You know. You know. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I guess. >> I guess. >> I guess. >> Yeah, I guess. I'm going to marginally >> Yeah, I guess. I'm going to marginally >> Yeah, I guess. I'm going to marginally better than drugs, you know. better than drugs, you know. better than drugs, you know. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But so you know, I'm really I'm really >> But so you know, I'm really I'm really >> But so you know, I'm really I'm really familiar with and I'm really grateful familiar with and I'm really grateful familiar with and I'm really grateful for my evangelical upbringing because for my evangelical upbringing because for my evangelical upbringing because you know, the intense you know, the intense you know, the intense relationship, the deep love of God in a relationship, the deep love of God in a relationship, the deep love of God in a very personal way that evangelicals very personal way that evangelicals very personal way that evangelicals often have and the familiarity they have often have and the familiarity they have often have and the familiarity they have with the scripture. with the scripture. with the scripture. Um where you know, you're encouraged to Um where you know, you're encouraged to Um where you know, you're encouraged to really read your Bible very deeply and really read your Bible very deeply and really read your Bible very deeply and they have a a tradition evangelical they have a a tradition evangelical they have a a tradition evangelical tradition of Lectio Divina that's really tradition of Lectio Divina that's really tradition of Lectio Divina that's really that's it that's it that's it to this day to this day to this day has been so important to me in my own has been so important to me in my own has been so important to me in my own life. And so I'm grateful to God for life. And so I'm grateful to God for life. And so I'm grateful to God for both traditions actually. both traditions actually. both traditions actually. Um and how it's affected me. But the Um and how it's affected me. But the Um and how it's affected me. But the truth of the matter is that it's it's truth of the matter is that it's it's truth of the matter is that it's it's quality control all across quality control all across quality control all across our churches can be a problem. You know, our churches can be a problem. You know, our churches can be a problem. You know, and I say this as a Catholic where a lot and I say this as a Catholic where a lot and I say this as a Catholic where a lot of of of Catholic preaching just isn't very Catholic preaching just isn't very Catholic preaching just isn't very compelling. And and what you need I mean compelling. And and what you need I mean compelling. And and what you need I mean here's the here's the thing. I mean you here's the here's the thing. I mean you here's the here's the thing. I mean you could give me the worst sermons in the could give me the worst sermons in the could give me the worst sermons in the world for the rest of my life and I'm world for the rest of my life and I'm world for the rest of my life and I'm still going every day.

still going every day. still going every day. But that's because I'm 61 years old, But that's because I'm 61 years old, But that's because I'm 61 years old, Carrie. And and and Carrie. And and and Carrie. And and and >> I was just say why is that true? Cuz >> I was just say why is that true? Cuz >> I was just say why is that true? Cuz there are people who would do that. there are people who would do that. there are people who would do that. We're just going to go till we die even We're just going to go till we die even We're just going to go till we die even if though it's if though it's if though it's >> Because I'm like St. Peter. Lord, where >> Because I'm like St. Peter. Lord, where >> Because I'm like St. Peter. Lord, where else am I going to go? else am I going to go? else am I going to go? You know, at the end of the Sermon on You know, at the end of the Sermon on You know, at the end of the Sermon on the Mount where he starts, you know, the Mount where he starts, you know, the Mount where he starts, you know, going off about going off about going off about something that makes people intensely something that makes people intensely something that makes people intensely uncomfortable and they wander away and uncomfortable and they wander away and uncomfortable and they wander away and he says, "How about you? You, too?" And he says, "How about you? You, too?" And he says, "How about you? You, too?" And St. Peter's like, "I'm in for a penny, St. Peter's like, "I'm in for a penny, St. Peter's like, "I'm in for a penny, in for a pound, Lord." in for a pound, Lord." in for a pound, Lord." You know, You know, You know, >> back to that over and over again. >> back to that over and over again. >> back to that over and over again. >> Yeah, and so at this point, but the >> Yeah, and so at this point, but the >> Yeah, and so at this point, but the problem is, problem is, problem is, you know, and and and this is one of the you know, and and and this is one of the you know, and and and this is one of the things that I tell my students when things that I tell my students when things that I tell my students when they're going in for their for their they're going in for their for their they're going in for their for their interviews. interviews. interviews. People make an impression and decide People make an impression and decide People make an impression and decide about you in the first 7 seconds. about you in the first 7 seconds. about you in the first 7 seconds. There's a part of your brain that There's a part of your brain that There's a part of your brain that actually in 7 seconds decides who you actually in 7 seconds decides who you actually in 7 seconds decides who you are and what you're all about. are and what you're all about. are and what you're all about. You better be good. I mean, you better You better be good. I mean, you better You better be good. I mean, you better be be be at the top of your game rhetorically. I at the top of your game rhetorically. I at the top of your game rhetorically. I mean, no garbage music. No, I'm sorry. mean, no garbage music. No, I'm sorry. mean, no garbage music. No, I'm sorry. You can't be boring. You have to be You can't be boring. You have to be You can't be boring. You have to be great at what you do. There's really two great at what you do. There's really two great at what you do. There's really two And again, this is without hubris. I say And again, this is without hubris. I say And again, this is without hubris. I say this with incredible respect and this with incredible respect and this with incredible respect and affection and love for all the people affection and love for all the people affection and love for all the people who are actually doing the work in the who are actually doing the work in the who are actually doing the work in the pulpit.

pulpit. pulpit. Um but apostolate, and this is based on Um but apostolate, and this is based on Um but apostolate, and this is based on a lot of research, the two tools of a lot of research, the two tools of a lot of research, the two tools of apostolate that are more effective than apostolate that are more effective than apostolate that are more effective than anything else, you guys call it mission. anything else, you guys call it mission. anything else, you guys call it mission. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Apostolate, the two tools are friendship >> Apostolate, the two tools are friendship >> Apostolate, the two tools are friendship and excellence. Friendship and and excellence. Friendship and and excellence. Friendship and excellence. Why? Because friendship excellence. Why? Because friendship excellence. Why? Because friendship bonds you to each other and excellence bonds you to each other and excellence bonds you to each other and excellence magnetizes people to you. We're a magnetizes people to you. We're a magnetizes people to you. We're a hierarchical, kin-based species, Homo hierarchical, kin-based species, Homo hierarchical, kin-based species, Homo sapiens. We need kin and we and we're we sapiens. We need kin and we and we're we sapiens. We need kin and we and we're we admire excellence. admire excellence. admire excellence. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's the hierarchical part and that >> That's the hierarchical part and that >> That's the hierarchical part and that and so the result of it is if you're and so the result of it is if you're and so the result of it is if you're going to be a leader, and this is an going to be a leader, and this is an going to be a leader, and this is an important leadership podcast, you better important leadership podcast, you better important leadership podcast, you better be a good friend and truly great at what be a good friend and truly great at what be a good friend and truly great at what you do. And I give this this advice a you do. And I give this this advice a you do. And I give this this advice a lot when I'm talking to bishops and lot when I'm talking to bishops and lot when I'm talking to bishops and priests. It's like, "No, no, no, no. No priests. It's like, "No, no, no, no. No priests. It's like, "No, no, no, no. No boring homilies. I'm sorry, because boring homilies. I'm sorry, because boring homilies. I'm sorry, because there's somebody out there who's not there's somebody out there who's not there's somebody out there who's not been to mass before. There's somebody been to mass before. There's somebody been to mass before. There's somebody who hasn't been to mass in a long time. who hasn't been to mass in a long time. who hasn't been to mass in a long time. Somebody who's got dragged there by Somebody who's got dragged there by Somebody who's got dragged there by their mom who's like, 'See? See, this is their mom who's like, 'See? See, this is their mom who's like, 'See? See, this is why.' why.' why.' >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You do a bad job. And you know, the the >> You do a bad job. And you know, the the >> You do a bad job. And you know, the the you know, the lame guitar nging nging you know, the lame guitar nging nging you know, the lame guitar nging nging nging.

nging. nging. And then it's just I'm sorry, no. And then it's just I'm sorry, no. And then it's just I'm sorry, no. >> You were available, just not gifted. >> You were available, just not gifted. >> You were available, just not gifted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, and so that's and so I I have to >> Yeah, and so that's and so I I have to >> Yeah, and so that's and so I I have to say that we say that we say that we you know, God gives us the ability to be you know, God gives us the ability to be you know, God gives us the ability to be excellent in what we do, and woe be unto excellent in what we do, and woe be unto excellent in what we do, and woe be unto us if we don't take that opportunity us if we don't take that opportunity us if we don't take that opportunity because it's not good enough just to because it's not good enough just to because it's not good enough just to say, "Oh, you know, the say, "Oh, you know, the say, "Oh, you know, the Holy Spirit will carry this thing." Holy Spirit will carry this thing." Holy Spirit will carry this thing." You know, we're we're involved here. You know, we're we're involved here. You know, we're we're involved here. He's involving us for particular He's involving us for particular He's involving us for particular reasons. Stakes are super high in my reasons. Stakes are super high in my reasons. Stakes are super high in my view. view. view. >> I hear you. So, every 7 minutes, there >> I hear you. So, every 7 minutes, there >> I hear you. So, every 7 minutes, there has to be some kind of break. You're has to be some kind of break. You're has to be some kind of break. You're coming up for air. It's a joke. It's a coming up for air. It's a joke. It's a coming up for air. It's a joke. It's a "Hey, I got really excited about this "Hey, I got really excited about this "Hey, I got really excited about this thing I I read." You're giving people a thing I I read." You're giving people a thing I I read." You're giving people a little break. little break. little break. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> For those of us those of us who are >> For those of us those of us who are >> For those of us those of us who are listening because I think that's a great listening because I think that's a great listening because I think that's a great fear for all of us who communicate is fear for all of us who communicate is fear for all of us who communicate is that we're going to be boring. that we're going to be boring. that we're going to be boring. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> What other I would I would line up and >> What other I would I would line up and >> What other I would I would line up and put myself on the waitlist for a put myself on the waitlist for a put myself on the waitlist for a homiletics course taught by Arthur homiletics course taught by Arthur homiletics course taught by Arthur Brooks. So, what what what other tips Brooks. So, what what what other tips Brooks. So, what what what other tips would you have based on thousands of would you have based on thousands of would you have based on thousands of hours hours hours uh sitting through messages? uh sitting through messages? uh sitting through messages? >> Well, okay. So, you've given a lot more >> Well, okay. So, you've given a lot more >> Well, okay. So, you've given a lot more homilies, sermons than I have. So, I homilies, sermons than I have. So, I homilies, sermons than I have. So, I should be sitting at your feet asking should be sitting at your feet asking should be sitting at your feet asking this um and not vice versa. I'll talk to this um and not vice versa. I'll talk to this um and not vice versa. I'll talk to you about, you know, structuring you about, you know, structuring you about, you know, structuring >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> a lecture, you know, on on how this >> a lecture, you know, on on how this >> a lecture, you know, on on how this actually works. actually works. actually works. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And and the answer to that is number >> And and the answer to that is number >> And and the answer to that is number one, understanding the neuroscience of one, understanding the neuroscience of one, understanding the neuroscience of message absorption. How people actually message absorption. How people actually message absorption. How people actually understand messages. You know, how fast understand messages. You know, how fast understand messages. You know, how fast you or slowly you need to talk, for you or slowly you need to talk, for you or slowly you need to talk, for example. And And part of that is example. And And part of that is example. And And part of that is actually you don't need to know the actually you don't need to know the actually you don't need to know the theory, but you need to theory, but you need to theory, but you need to study the best speakers and absorb why study the best speakers and absorb why study the best speakers and absorb why they're really good, right? Second is they're really good, right? Second is they're really good, right? Second is judge yourself, and that means um that judge yourself, and that means um that judge yourself, and that means um that means actually taping yourself and means actually taping yourself and means actually taping yourself and listening to your tapes. listening to your tapes. listening to your tapes. Videotaping yourself in the pulpit or Videotaping yourself in the pulpit or Videotaping yourself in the pulpit or videotaping yourself in the lecture hall videotaping yourself in the lecture hall videotaping yourself in the lecture hall and watching your tapes. Old guys like and watching your tapes. Old guys like and watching your tapes. Old guys like me have done this thousands and me have done this thousands and me have done this thousands and thousands and thousands of hours. I thousands and thousands of hours. I thousands and thousands of hours. I mean, this is taking free throws is what mean, this is taking free throws is what mean, this is taking free throws is what it was really what it's all about. And it was really what it's all about. And it was really what it's all about. And you can always learn you can always get you can always learn you can always get you can always learn you can always get better. I'll listen to a lecture of better. I'll listen to a lecture of better. I'll listen to a lecture of mine, a new lecture that I'm giving. mine, a new lecture that I'm giving. mine, a new lecture that I'm giving. I'll listen to it over and over and over I'll listen to it over and over and over I'll listen to it over and over and over again. again. again. And I'll think to myself, what's wrong And I'll think to myself, what's wrong And I'll think to myself, what's wrong with this thing? And I'll critique it. with this thing? And I'll critique it. with this thing? And I'll critique it. So, having real high standards on the So, having real high standards on the So, having real high standards on the basis. And again, I used to be a basis. And again, I used to be a basis. And again, I used to be a classical musician.

classical musician. classical musician. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, from when I was 19 till I was 31, I >> So, from when I was 19 till I was 31, I >> So, from when I was 19 till I was 31, I was a classical professional French horn was a classical professional French horn was a classical professional French horn player in symphony orchestras. And player in symphony orchestras. And player in symphony orchestras. And you know, everything is I learned I you know, everything is I learned I you know, everything is I learned I learned from playing the French horn. learned from playing the French horn. learned from playing the French horn. And and and but and so this is actually And and and but and so this is actually And and and but and so this is actually one of those ideas. one of those ideas. one of those ideas. The third point that's really important The third point that's really important The third point that's really important is murder boarding. That's when you've is murder boarding. That's when you've is murder boarding. That's when you've got something new that you're thinking got something new that you're thinking got something new that you're thinking and talking about, you better have and talking about, you better have and talking about, you better have people in your life that you can people in your life that you can people in your life that you can actually talk about it with you're like, actually talk about it with you're like, actually talk about it with you're like, that doesn't work. that doesn't work. that doesn't work. >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> Murder boarding, you called it? >> Murder boarding, you called it? >> Murder boarding, you called it? >> Murder boarding. Yeah, that's in that in >> Murder boarding. Yeah, that's in that in >> Murder boarding. Yeah, that's in that in the I I used to work at the RAND the I I used to work at the RAND the I I used to work at the RAND Corporation. You know, the old the think Corporation. You know, the old the think Corporation. You know, the old the think tank in in Los Angeles. And I used to go tank in in Los Angeles. And I used to go tank in in Los Angeles. And I used to go to the Pentagon and they would murder to the Pentagon and they would murder to the Pentagon and they would murder board stuff. And that means that a board stuff. And that means that a board stuff. And that means that a murder board in the military operations murder board in the military operations murder board in the military operations research world is like 20 people sitting research world is like 20 people sitting research world is like 20 people sitting there and they're taking potshots at there and they're taking potshots at there and they're taking potshots at you. Like that's that's stupid. That you. Like that's that's stupid. That you. Like that's that's stupid. That doesn't make sense. I don't believe doesn't make sense. I don't believe doesn't make sense. I don't believe that. Whatever it happens to be. That that. Whatever it happens to be. That that. Whatever it happens to be. That joke wasn't funny. joke wasn't funny. joke wasn't funny. And no matter who you are and I've been And no matter who you are and I've been And no matter who you are and I've been doing that for years and you I murder doing that for years and you I murder doing that for years and you I murder board stuff and I murder board it. And board stuff and I murder board it. And board stuff and I murder board it. And then the and then getting reps is super then the and then getting reps is super then the and then getting reps is super important, you know? I mean, if you're a important, you know? I mean, if you're a important, you know? I mean, if you're a young if you're a young speaker, a young young if you're a young speaker, a young young if you're a young speaker, a young professor, when I was first at you know, professor, when I was first at you know, professor, when I was first at you know, on the lecture circuit, I would never on the lecture circuit, I would never on the lecture circuit, I would never give a speech. I would give it to an give a speech. I would give it to an give a speech. I would give it to an empty hall 15 times before I took it out empty hall 15 times before I took it out empty hall 15 times before I took it out on the road. Um it was really important on the road. Um it was really important on the road. Um it was really important actually get the cadence right, etc.

actually get the cadence right, etc. actually get the cadence right, etc. etc. And practice practice practice. I etc. And practice practice practice. I etc. And practice practice practice. I mean, you get this is how you get to mean, you get this is how you get to mean, you get this is how you get to Carnegie Hall. This is also how you get Carnegie Hall. This is also how you get Carnegie Hall. This is also how you get to, you know, wherever you're trying to to, you know, wherever you're trying to to, you know, wherever you're trying to preach. You want a full church? These preach. You want a full church? These preach. You want a full church? These are the standards. And then thinking are the standards. And then thinking are the standards. And then thinking about you know, how the audience is about you know, how the audience is about you know, how the audience is actually going to absorb these messages. actually going to absorb these messages. actually going to absorb these messages. That means I'm not going to give you 10 That means I'm not going to give you 10 That means I'm not going to give you 10 lessons today. I mean, if you've got a a lessons today. I mean, if you've got a a lessons today. I mean, if you've got a a 30-minute homily, which is very common 30-minute homily, which is very common 30-minute homily, which is very common in great um for great preachers in in in in great um for great preachers in in in in great um for great preachers in in in Protestant churches, 30 minutes is Protestant churches, 30 minutes is Protestant churches, 30 minutes is terrific. You should be giving three terrific. You should be giving three terrific. You should be giving three lessons max. lessons max. lessons max. And and it's important [clears throat] And and it's important [clears throat] And and it's important [clears throat] that it be structured in a particular that it be structured in a particular that it be structured in a particular way that the human brain can absorb. way that the human brain can absorb. way that the human brain can absorb. Number one is the lead. And the lead is Number one is the lead. And the lead is Number one is the lead. And the lead is not just, "When I was a kid, my mom not just, "When I was a kid, my mom not just, "When I was a kid, my mom always told me." No, no, no, no, no, no, always told me." No, no, no, no, no, no, always told me." No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Once a year, man, once a year. It no. Once a year, man, once a year. It no. Once a year, man, once a year. It has to be a story from history. It has has to be a story from history. It has has to be a story from history. It has to be a study that matters. It has to be to be a study that matters. It has to be to be a study that matters. It has to be something that's actually really something that's actually really something that's actually really meaningful. It has to be something that meaningful. It has to be something that meaningful. It has to be something that >> so to speak. >> so to speak. >> so to speak. >> Especially an anecdote from your >> Especially an anecdote from your >> Especially an anecdote from your childhood. And young pastors and priests childhood. And young pastors and priests childhood. And young pastors and priests always do that because they're taught always do that because they're taught always do that because they're taught that in seminary. Like make it that in seminary. Like make it that in seminary. Like make it relatable. Like relatable. Like relatable. Like too relatable. Anyway, so too relatable. Anyway, so too relatable. Anyway, so a really great lead and a lead leads to a really great lead and a lead leads to a really great lead and a lead leads to the lead ends with a question.

the lead ends with a question. the lead ends with a question. So, it has to end with a real question. So, it has to end with a real question. So, it has to end with a real question. And I was left, you say at the end of And I was left, you say at the end of And I was left, you say at the end of that, "I was left with this burning that, "I was left with this burning that, "I was left with this burning question and I didn't have the answer." question and I didn't have the answer." question and I didn't have the answer." Such that the homily or the sermon is a Such that the homily or the sermon is a Such that the homily or the sermon is a it's a kind of a detective story, right? it's a kind of a detective story, right? it's a kind of a detective story, right? >> Yeah, like like you've stated a problem >> Yeah, like like you've stated a problem >> Yeah, like like you've stated a problem that the answer is not obvious. that the answer is not obvious. that the answer is not obvious. >> That's right. So, we're going to go find >> That's right. So, we're going to go find >> That's right. So, we're going to go find it right now. Then the second part is it right now. Then the second part is it right now. Then the second part is you know, it is the science for me. you know, it is the science for me. you know, it is the science for me. You know, here are these 15 studies You know, here are these 15 studies You know, here are these 15 studies about this particular topic and here's about this particular topic and here's about this particular topic and here's all the findings and it's super all the findings and it's super all the findings and it's super interesting. Science, when you're doing interesting. Science, when you're doing interesting. Science, when you're doing when you're giving a homily, you're when you're giving a homily, you're when you're giving a homily, you're giving a sermon, is is largely giving a sermon, is is largely giving a sermon, is is largely scriptural. And it'll be largely based scriptural. And it'll be largely based scriptural. And it'll be largely based on the readings of the day on the on the readings of the day on the on the readings of the day on the lectionary. And so, you know, what was lectionary. And so, you know, what was lectionary. And so, you know, what was the letter from St. Paul? What was the the letter from St. Paul? What was the the letter from St. Paul? What was the psalm that we read? What was the letter psalm that we read? What was the letter psalm that we read? What was the letter from the gospel? What was the the from the gospel? What was the the from the gospel? What was the the reading from the gospel? What were the reading from the gospel? What were the reading from the gospel? What were the main points? And talking about, you main points? And talking about, you main points? And talking about, you know, the science of that will be, "What know, the science of that will be, "What know, the science of that will be, "What was going on when that was written? What was going on when that was written? What was going on when that was written? What did that What were the What was that did that What were the What was that did that What were the What was that really How was that translated from the really How was that translated from the really How was that translated from the the original Hebrew or Aramaic? Or the original Hebrew or Aramaic? Or the original Hebrew or Aramaic? Or probably into the Greek that we got it."

probably into the Greek that we got it." probably into the Greek that we got it." You know, something that you know, You know, something that you know, You know, something that you know, something scholarly. I mean, these guys something scholarly. I mean, these guys something scholarly. I mean, these guys in the in the in the You guys in the pulpit, you guys are You guys in the pulpit, you guys are You guys in the pulpit, you guys are scholars, right? I mean, you really are. scholars, right? I mean, you really are. scholars, right? I mean, you really are. You really know what's going on. You really know what's going on. You really know what's going on. >> Theoretically, yes. >> Theoretically, yes. >> Theoretically, yes. >> And so, you're teaching during this >> And so, you're teaching during this >> And so, you're teaching during this time, right? And so, what do we think time, right? And so, what do we think time, right? And so, what do we think Jesus meant? What are, you know, what Jesus meant? What are, you know, what Jesus meant? What are, you know, what did um what did St. St. St. Augustine did um what did St. St. St. Augustine did um what did St. St. St. Augustine think that this meant? What did St. think that this meant? What did St. think that this meant? What did St. Thomas Aquinas think that this meant, Thomas Aquinas think that this meant, Thomas Aquinas think that this meant, right? And really a lesson in there. right? And really a lesson in there. right? And really a lesson in there. Then from that, say, "Okay, based on Then from that, say, "Okay, based on Then from that, say, "Okay, based on that, that, that, now let's talk about how we can use this now let's talk about how we can use this now let's talk about how we can use this in our lives." And that leads in a half in our lives." And that leads in a half in our lives." And that leads in a half an hour sermon to three lessons. That's an hour sermon to three lessons. That's an hour sermon to three lessons. That's the feng shui of this thing is three the feng shui of this thing is three the feng shui of this thing is three lessons. lessons. lessons. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> If it's 20 minutes, two lessons. If it's >> If it's 20 minutes, two lessons. If it's >> If it's 20 minutes, two lessons. If it's 10 minutes, one lesson. It's one minute 10 minutes, one lesson. It's one minute 10 minutes, one lesson. It's one minute It's one lesson per 10 minutes is is the It's one lesson per 10 minutes is is the It's one lesson per 10 minutes is is the general rule, right? general rule, right? general rule, right? If you're giving an hour-long sermon, If you're giving an hour-long sermon, If you're giving an hour-long sermon, well, that means you're going on too well, that means you're going on too well, that means you're going on too long. That doesn't mean six. long. That doesn't mean six. long. That doesn't mean six. >> Exactly. Nobody's quite that >> Exactly. Nobody's quite that >> Exactly. Nobody's quite that interesting. interesting. interesting. >> I've heard a lot of sermons that go on >> I've heard a lot of sermons that go on >> I've heard a lot of sermons that go on for a really long time. And then the end for a really long time. And then the end for a really long time. And then the end is actually tying it back together is actually tying it back together is actually tying it back together again, going back to the original again, going back to the original again, going back to the original question, and then say, "And one more question, and then say, "And one more question, and then say, "And one more thing." It's a very Steve Jobs kind of thing." It's a very Steve Jobs kind of thing." It's a very Steve Jobs kind of And one more thing that you're going to And one more thing that you're going to And one more thing that you're going to actually leave them with that you want actually leave them with that you want actually leave them with that you want them to remember.

them to remember. them to remember. And and it'll be a leading question And and it'll be a leading question And and it'll be a leading question like, "You will be judged this week on like, "You will be judged this week on like, "You will be judged this week on the basis of how you put these ideas the basis of how you put these ideas the basis of how you put these ideas into action." And if you do it the right into action." And if you do it the right into action." And if you do it the right way, you're going to see your life start way, you're going to see your life start way, you're going to see your life start to change. And then one last thing for to change. And then one last thing for to change. And then one last thing for them to actually remember. And that's a them to actually remember. And that's a them to actually remember. And that's a structure that actually works really structure that actually works really structure that actually works really well for lectures, really well for well for lectures, really well for well for lectures, really well for speeches, really well for homilies. And speeches, really well for homilies. And speeches, really well for homilies. And and we can all use it, and it provides and we can all use it, and it provides and we can all use it, and it provides this kind of shape to what we're doing. this kind of shape to what we're doing. this kind of shape to what we're doing. And And And not coincidentally and quite not coincidentally and quite not coincidentally and quite conveniently, it follows the way that conveniently, it follows the way that conveniently, it follows the way that people learn. people learn. people learn. >> So, >> So, >> So, this is this is what's so powerful. Back this is this is what's so powerful. Back this is this is what's so powerful. Back to And this is why you need 20 hours a to And this is why you need 20 hours a to And this is why you need 20 hours a week. This is why you can't just start week. This is why you can't just start week. This is why you can't just start at 3:00 in the afternoon on a Thursday at 3:00 in the afternoon on a Thursday at 3:00 in the afternoon on a Thursday and hope you're going to get there by and hope you're going to get there by and hope you're going to get there by Sunday. Um back to the disciplines and Sunday. Um back to the disciplines and Sunday. Um back to the disciplines and the rhythms. So, the rhythms. So, the rhythms. So, you know, back to what you said about you know, back to what you said about you know, back to what you said about the principal use of of AI now being the principal use of of AI now being the principal use of of AI now being relationship therapy, etc. But one of relationship therapy, etc. But one of relationship therapy, etc. But one of the other questions people, you know, the other questions people, you know, the other questions people, you know, type in is what is the meaning of life? type in is what is the meaning of life? type in is what is the meaning of life? That's pretty frequent. I think That's pretty frequent. I think That's pretty frequent. I think Harvard's top 10 uses of 2025 last year Harvard's top 10 uses of 2025 last year Harvard's top 10 uses of 2025 last year was that was like maybe in the middle.

was that was like maybe in the middle. was that was like maybe in the middle. So people are doing that. So people are doing that. So people are doing that. Um Um Um This is your topic. Why this topic? Why This is your topic. Why this topic? Why This is your topic. Why this topic? Why now? now? now? >> So >> So >> So why now is because this is the that this why now is because this is the that this why now is because this is the that this is the question that I I have been is the question that I I have been is the question that I I have been getting since I've been back in getting since I've been back in getting since I've been back in academia. I came back to academia in academia. I came back to academia in academia. I came back to academia in 2019. I'd been gone for over 10 years. 2019. I'd been gone for over 10 years. 2019. I'd been gone for over 10 years. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um I was the president of a big think >> Um I was the president of a big think >> Um I was the president of a big think tank in Washington, D.C. for 10 and a tank in Washington, D.C. for 10 and a tank in Washington, D.C. for 10 and a half years right in the middle of my half years right in the middle of my half years right in the middle of my academic career. And I didn't pay academic career. And I didn't pay academic career. And I didn't pay attention to academia. attention to academia. attention to academia. But when I left in 2008, academia was But when I left in 2008, academia was But when I left in 2008, academia was happier than the outside world. Right? I happier than the outside world. Right? I happier than the outside world. Right? I mean, people were falling in love and mean, people were falling in love and mean, people were falling in love and making friends and building their making friends and building their making friends and building their careers and learning interesting and careers and learning interesting and careers and learning interesting and scary new ideas, crazy stuff, and you scary new ideas, crazy stuff, and you scary new ideas, crazy stuff, and you know, expanding their minds, and you know, expanding their minds, and you know, expanding their minds, and you know, campuses were happier than the know, campuses were happier than the know, campuses were happier than the outside world. I came back in 2019 and outside world. I came back in 2019 and outside world. I came back in 2019 and it was like a a plague had gone through it was like a a plague had gone through it was like a a plague had gone through my village. my village. my village. It was a yeah, it was uh depression had It was a yeah, it was uh depression had It was a yeah, it was uh depression had tripled, anxiety had doubled. Uh 55% of tripled, anxiety had doubled. Uh 55% of tripled, anxiety had doubled. Uh 55% of the students on my campus were seeking the students on my campus were seeking the students on my campus were seeking therapy, were in psychiatric treatment.

therapy, were in psychiatric treatment. therapy, were in psychiatric treatment. Um there was uh the what what used to be Um there was uh the what what used to be Um there was uh the what what used to be happiness and love was supplanted by happiness and love was supplanted by happiness and love was supplanted by sadness and anger and fear. sadness and anger and fear. sadness and anger and fear. Um cancel culture was in full swing, Um cancel culture was in full swing, Um cancel culture was in full swing, professors were afraid of actually professors were afraid of actually professors were afraid of actually talking about controversial topics in talking about controversial topics in talking about controversial topics in class, which is the the one place you class, which is the the one place you class, which is the the one place you would always talk about controversial would always talk about controversial would always talk about controversial topics. topics. topics. >> Absolutely. This is the place to >> Absolutely. This is the place to >> Absolutely. This is the place to disagree. This is the place to test disagree. This is the place to test disagree. This is the place to test ideas. ideas. ideas. >> People were being run out of academia on >> People were being run out of academia on >> People were being run out of academia on a rail by campus activists who are a rail by campus activists who are a rail by campus activists who are trading in anger and fear and disgust trading in anger and fear and disgust trading in anger and fear and disgust and all these negative emotions. And and and all these negative emotions. And and and all these negative emotions. And and and and I thought, well, and and I thought, well, and and I thought, well, I got to get to the bottom of this. And I got to get to the bottom of this. And I got to get to the bottom of this. And so I started teaching a happiness class, so I started teaching a happiness class, so I started teaching a happiness class, but I started doing what I ordinarily but I started doing what I ordinarily but I started doing what I ordinarily do, not just quantitatively, but do, not just quantitatively, but do, not just quantitatively, but qualitatively. I started doing qualitatively. I started doing qualitatively. I started doing interviews. And I was interviewing interviews. And I was interviewing interviews. And I was interviewing people about their time and their days people about their time and their days people about their time and their days and their lives, and they kept saying and their lives, and they kept saying and their lives, and they kept saying the same thing over and over again. My the same thing over and over again. My the same thing over and over again. My life feels meaningless. My life feels life feels meaningless. My life feels life feels meaningless. My life feels meaningless. meaningless. meaningless. And so then I started looking at the And so then I started looking at the And so then I started looking at the data on that. It turns out there's this data on that. It turns out there's this data on that. It turns out there's this this explosion that's exactly this explosion that's exactly this explosion that's exactly contemporaneous with the with the contemporaneous with the with the contemporaneous with the with the increases in in in increases in in in increases in in in anxiety and depression with the anxiety and depression with the anxiety and depression with the percentage of young people under 25 who percentage of young people under 25 who percentage of young people under 25 who say my my life feels meaningless.

say my my life feels meaningless. say my my life feels meaningless. And so based on this, it's very easy to And so based on this, it's very easy to And so based on this, it's very easy to conclude conclude conclude it's pretty unambiguous that we have a it's pretty unambiguous that we have a it's pretty unambiguous that we have a meaning crisis. We don't have a meaning crisis. We don't have a meaning crisis. We don't have a happiness crisis. We have a meaning happiness crisis. We have a meaning happiness crisis. We have a meaning crisis. Happiness crisis. Happiness crisis. Happiness includes meaning. Meaning is one of the includes meaning. Meaning is one of the includes meaning. Meaning is one of the macronutrients of happiness, the other macronutrients of happiness, the other macronutrients of happiness, the other two being enjoyment and satisfaction. two being enjoyment and satisfaction. two being enjoyment and satisfaction. But those things are fine But those things are fine But those things are fine with young people in particular, but with young people in particular, but with young people in particular, but with all of us. It's meaning that has with all of us. It's meaning that has with all of us. It's meaning that has been vacated. And so my job over the been vacated. And so my job over the been vacated. And so my job over the past 7 years since I've been back in past 7 years since I've been back in past 7 years since I've been back in academia, but particularly five since academia, but particularly five since academia, but particularly five since I've been thinking about this new I've been thinking about this new I've been thinking about this new project, is what why what is meaning? project, is what why what is meaning? project, is what why what is meaning? Why is it actually absent? Where do you Why is it actually absent? Where do you Why is it actually absent? Where do you go to find it? And then how do you have go to find it? And then how do you have go to find it? And then how do you have to live differently so that meaning will to live differently so that meaning will to live differently so that meaning will actually find you? And that's what this actually find you? And that's what this actually find you? And that's what this new book is about. It answers those four new book is about. It answers those four new book is about. It answers those four questions. questions. questions. >> What Why do you think it's so absent? I >> What Why do you think it's so absent? I >> What Why do you think it's so absent? I mean, you've already given part of the mean, you've already given part of the mean, you've already given part of the answer I think in the framing. answer I think in the framing. answer I think in the framing. But, you know, you look at the church. But, you know, you look at the church. But, you know, you look at the church. We have right now, you know, you've We have right now, you know, you've We have right now, you know, you've probably seen in 2025 Gen Z is surging probably seen in 2025 Gen Z is surging probably seen in 2025 Gen Z is surging back to church. Not entirely, most are back to church. Not entirely, most are back to church. Not entirely, most are still not going. still not going. still not going. >> Right.

>> Right. >> Right. >> But there's been a reversal. >> But there's been a reversal. >> But there's been a reversal. >> There's been a little uptick. There's a >> There's been a little uptick. There's a >> There's been a little uptick. There's a little little little little little little >> uptick. Okay, >> uptick. Okay, >> uptick. Okay, >> It's still at the bottom of that. Yeah, >> It's still at the bottom of that. Yeah, >> It's still at the bottom of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah. >> Well, you know, in the evangelical >> Well, you know, in the evangelical >> Well, you know, in the evangelical world, we like to make a lot of a little world, we like to make a lot of a little world, we like to make a lot of a little sometimes. So, you know, you got you got sometimes. So, you know, you got you got sometimes. So, you know, you got you got to give that to us. to give that to us. to give that to us. >> Well, thank God that the Catholics don't >> Well, thank God that the Catholics don't >> Well, thank God that the Catholics don't exaggerate, you know. >> So, >> So, you know, it's it's one of those things, you know, it's it's one of those things, you know, it's it's one of those things, Arthur, where Arthur, where Arthur, where we have lived in a secular universe for we have lived in a secular universe for we have lived in a secular universe for the better part of a century, at least the better part of a century, at least the better part of a century, at least academically. academically. academically. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And >> And >> And is there meaning without God in your is there meaning without God in your is there meaning without God in your view? view? view? >> So, >> So, >> So, um, it's really there is a sense of um, it's really there is a sense of um, it's really there is a sense of meaning and then there's the ultimate meaning and then there's the ultimate meaning and then there's the ultimate meaning. They're really two different meaning. They're really two different meaning. They're really two different questions. questions. questions. People have a sense of meaning when People have a sense of meaning when People have a sense of meaning when they're on the trail of meaning, they're on the trail of meaning, they're on the trail of meaning, but they don't have ultimate meaning but they don't have ultimate meaning but they don't have ultimate meaning until they have the the originator of until they have the the originator of until they have the the originator of all meaning. all meaning. all meaning. That's what it comes down to. So, people That's what it comes down to. So, people That's what it comes down to. So, people can get a lot of satisfaction by finding can get a lot of satisfaction by finding can get a lot of satisfaction by finding a sense of meaning coming into their a sense of meaning coming into their a sense of meaning coming into their lives, by doing what needs to be done to lives, by doing what needs to be done to lives, by doing what needs to be done to find it. But ultimately, our job is to find it. But ultimately, our job is to find it. But ultimately, our job is to be familiar with and embracing the be familiar with and embracing the be familiar with and embracing the source of all meaning in our lives. And source of all meaning in our lives. And source of all meaning in our lives. And I think that is that is God. And and as I think that is that is God. And and as I think that is that is God. And and as a Christian, I believe that there's a a Christian, I believe that there's a a Christian, I believe that there's a particular way to understand God. That's particular way to understand God. That's particular way to understand God. That's that's my belief. Right? So, what I will that's my belief. Right? So, what I will that's my belief. Right? So, what I will do in my work is and and I think this is do in my work is and and I think this is do in my work is and and I think this is missionary work in a nutshell. I mean, missionary work in a nutshell. I mean, missionary work in a nutshell. I mean, again, my my, you know, my grandfather, again, my my, you know, my grandfather, again, my my, you know, my grandfather, who, you know, a lifelong missionary, who, you know, a lifelong missionary, who, you know, a lifelong missionary, he's a funny guy. He used to say, "Hey, he's a funny guy. He used to say, "Hey, he's a funny guy. He used to say, "Hey, you know, words never uttered in the you know, words never uttered in the you know, words never uttered in the English language?" And I said, "Oh, no, English language?" And I said, "Oh, no, English language?" And I said, "Oh, no, what, Grandpa?" He said, "Good news, what, Grandpa?" He said, "Good news, what, Grandpa?" He said, "Good news, there's missionaries on the porch." You

there's missionaries on the porch." You there's missionaries on the porch." You [laughter] know. >> That was great. >> That was great. >> But missionary work, um, I learned from >> But missionary work, um, I learned from >> But missionary work, um, I learned from my grandfather and from many other my grandfather and from many other my grandfather and from many other people I love and respect who who've people I love and respect who who've people I love and respect who who've been in the mission field, been in the mission field, been in the mission field, is to crack the door. is to crack the door. is to crack the door. Is to get the door cracked. Isn't it Is to get the door cracked. Isn't it Is to get the door cracked. Isn't it have the door not stay closed? And and have the door not stay closed? And and have the door not stay closed? And and the reason is because it's very, very the reason is because it's very, very the reason is because it's very, very difficult in the door knocking business difficult in the door knocking business difficult in the door knocking business or the metaphorical door knocking or the metaphorical door knocking or the metaphorical door knocking business to actually get people on their business to actually get people on their business to actually get people on their knees and to baptize them. It's a knees and to baptize them. It's a knees and to baptize them. It's a really, really hard thing to do, right? really, really hard thing to do, right? really, really hard thing to do, right? And and as Catholics, you don't get to And and as Catholics, you don't get to And and as Catholics, you don't get to baptize them anyway. So, baptize them anyway. So, baptize them anyway. So, but the whole point is that that the but the whole point is that that the but the whole point is that that the whole job, the ambition should be to whole job, the ambition should be to whole job, the ambition should be to crack the door. And that means putting crack the door. And that means putting crack the door. And that means putting them on the path toward ultimate meaning them on the path toward ultimate meaning them on the path toward ultimate meaning with a faith, because we have to have with a faith, because we have to have with a faith, because we have to have the faith. Either we do or we don't that the faith. Either we do or we don't that the faith. Either we do or we don't that the Holy Spirit will do what the Holy the Holy Spirit will do what the Holy the Holy Spirit will do what the Holy Spirit's job is, Spirit's job is, Spirit's job is, which is guiding people once there's an which is guiding people once there's an which is guiding people once there's an open aperture, once the door is cracked. open aperture, once the door is cracked. open aperture, once the door is cracked. And so I'll have students that I'll talk And so I'll have students that I'll talk And so I'll have students that I'll talk to and I'll say, to and I'll say, to and I'll say, "You need to open your heart to falling "You need to open your heart to falling "You need to open your heart to falling in love." Because I know, I've got the in love." Because I know, I've got the in love." Because I know, I've got the data, that falling in love, this is all data, that falling in love, this is all data, that falling in love, this is all the Socrates, the Socrates, the Socrates, will actually lead people to seek higher will actually lead people to seek higher will actually lead people to seek higher and higher forms of beauty and truth and and higher forms of beauty and truth and and higher forms of beauty and truth and that ultimately will lead to to that ultimately will lead to to that ultimately will lead to to metaphysical supernatural truth.

metaphysical supernatural truth. metaphysical supernatural truth. This really works. And so I'll I'll use This really works. And so I'll I'll use This really works. And so I'll I'll use any any of the levers at my disposal. any any of the levers at my disposal. any any of the levers at my disposal. And the big And there's six levers, by And the big And there's six levers, by And the big And there's six levers, by the way, that do this, that I found the way, that do this, that I found the way, that do this, that I found empirically. empirically. empirically. >> Okay, go ahead. >> Okay, go ahead. >> Okay, go ahead. >> Number one is you you you you induce >> Number one is you you you you induce >> Number one is you you you you induce people to ask the questions that people to ask the questions that people to ask the questions that artificial intelligence can't answer. artificial intelligence can't answer. artificial intelligence can't answer. Like the big why questions of life. Like Like the big why questions of life. Like Like the big why questions of life. Like why am I alive and for what would I give why am I alive and for what would I give why am I alive and for what would I give my life? Those are the two biggies, my life? Those are the two biggies, my life? Those are the two biggies, right? Of coherence, why things happen, right? Of coherence, why things happen, right? Of coherence, why things happen, of purpose, why am I doing what I'm of purpose, why am I doing what I'm of purpose, why am I doing what I'm doing, of significance, why does my life doing, of significance, why does my life doing, of significance, why does my life matter? The the 11:00 p.m. dorm room matter? The the 11:00 p.m. dorm room matter? The the 11:00 p.m. dorm room conversations that are really deep. That conversations that are really deep. That conversations that are really deep. That people don't have now, by the way, cuz people don't have now, by the way, cuz people don't have now, by the way, cuz it's a zoom zoom zoom zoom zoom on the it's a zoom zoom zoom zoom zoom on the it's a zoom zoom zoom zoom zoom on the phone at 11:00 p.m. phone at 11:00 p.m. phone at 11:00 p.m. Number two is falling in love. Number two is falling in love. Number two is falling in love. Is love. Romantic love is an incredibly Is love. Romantic love is an incredibly Is love. Romantic love is an incredibly complex right hemispheric thing. And complex right hemispheric thing. And complex right hemispheric thing. And what you find is that when people allow what you find is that when people allow what you find is that when people allow more romantic love in their lives, they more romantic love in their lives, they more romantic love in their lives, they become way more disposed toward the become way more disposed toward the become way more disposed toward the metaphysical. And the reason is because metaphysical. And the reason is because metaphysical. And the reason is because they're using their brains the way their they're using their brains the way their they're using their brains the way their brains are supposed to work, right? The brains are supposed to work, right? The brains are supposed to work, right? The third is is actually is opening third is is actually is opening third is is actually is opening themselves up to what's called themselves up to what's called themselves up to what's called transcendence, which is standing in awe transcendence, which is standing in awe transcendence, which is standing in awe of things bigger than themselves. Now, of things bigger than themselves. Now, of things bigger than themselves. Now, that might be explicit religious that might be explicit religious that might be explicit religious activity, but it might be something activity, but it might be something activity, but it might be something that's more like that's more like that's more like um you know, a meditation practice or um you know, a meditation practice or um you know, a meditation practice or studying the Stoic philosophers or studying the Stoic philosophers or studying the Stoic philosophers or giving yourself to other people, giving yourself to other people, giving yourself to other people, transcending yourself in this in in in transcending yourself in this in in in transcending yourself in this in in in love and service, not looking at love and service, not looking at love and service, not looking at yourself in the mirror all the time.

yourself in the mirror all the time. yourself in the mirror all the time. These things really really open you up These things really really open you up These things really really open you up to experiences that are beyond your to experiences that are beyond your to experiences that are beyond your ability need explain, which is to say ability need explain, which is to say ability need explain, which is to say they're in the mysterious, the numinous, they're in the mysterious, the numinous, they're in the mysterious, the numinous, part of your brain. part of your brain. part of your brain. The next part is looking for then the The next part is looking for then the The next part is looking for then the fourth technique is looking for calling fourth technique is looking for calling fourth technique is looking for calling in your work. Not just money in your in your work. Not just money in your in your work. Not just money in your work or power or pre- prestige, calling work or power or pre- prestige, calling work or power or pre- prestige, calling in your work, which is in your work, which is in your work, which is finding what you're meant to do. That's finding what you're meant to do. That's finding what you're meant to do. That's meaning. What am I meant to do? And I've meaning. What am I meant to do? And I've meaning. What am I meant to do? And I've got a whole series of techniques for got a whole series of techniques for got a whole series of techniques for doing that with my students, of actually doing that with my students, of actually doing that with my students, of actually figuring that out. The fifth is actually figuring that out. The fifth is actually figuring that out. The fifth is actually looking for beauty. looking for beauty. looking for beauty. Beauty is a numinous experience. Beauty is a numinous experience. Beauty is a numinous experience. And there's three kinds of beauty that And there's three kinds of beauty that And there's three kinds of beauty that will really do this. There's There's will really do this. There's There's will really do this. There's There's artistic beauty, natural beauty, and artistic beauty, natural beauty, and artistic beauty, natural beauty, and moral beauty. moral beauty. moral beauty. In other words, In other words, In other words, that look at something that takes your that look at something that takes your that look at something that takes your breath away or listen to music that breath away or listen to music that breath away or listen to music that takes your breath away. Stand in awe of takes your breath away. Stand in awe of takes your breath away. Stand in awe of nature, or watch people who are truly nature, or watch people who are truly nature, or watch people who are truly doing things of great moral beauty. That doing things of great moral beauty. That doing things of great moral beauty. That makes you choke up, it's so beautiful, makes you choke up, it's so beautiful, makes you choke up, it's so beautiful, the way they give of themselves. That's the way they give of themselves. That's the way they give of themselves. That's all the same kind of experience, which all the same kind of experience, which all the same kind of experience, which is God is so good, you know? is God is so good, you know? is God is so good, you know? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's what he wants to get us. And the >> That's what he wants to get us. And the >> That's what he wants to get us. And the last but not least, number six, last but not least, number six, last but not least, number six, is suffering.

is suffering. is suffering. Suffering. Suffering is how is our is Suffering. Suffering is how is our is Suffering. Suffering is how is our is our teacher of meaning. our teacher of meaning. our teacher of meaning. If we allow it to be If we allow it to be If we allow it to be >> to eliminate from our lives. >> to eliminate from our lives. >> to eliminate from our lives. >> Exactly right. Exactly right. Because, >> Exactly right. Exactly right. Because, >> Exactly right. Exactly right. Because, you know, the therapy industrial complex you know, the therapy industrial complex you know, the therapy industrial complex in this country in this country in this country says that if you're suffering, it if says that if you're suffering, it if says that if you're suffering, it if you're sad and anxious, it means you're you're sad and anxious, it means you're you're sad and anxious, it means you're broken and pathological, and we got to broken and pathological, and we got to broken and pathological, and we got to get rid of that. And that's get rid of that. And that's get rid of that. And that's really, really dangerous. Because in so really, really dangerous. Because in so really, really dangerous. Because in so doing, we get rid of the meaning of our doing, we get rid of the meaning of our doing, we get rid of the meaning of our lives. Now, again, I'm not in favor of lives. Now, again, I'm not in favor of lives. Now, again, I'm not in favor of exaggerated, dysregulated suffering. It exaggerated, dysregulated suffering. It exaggerated, dysregulated suffering. It was, was, was, you know, psychiatric treatment was the you know, psychiatric treatment was the you know, psychiatric treatment was the difference between life and death for, difference between life and death for, difference between life and death for, you know, immediate members of my family you know, immediate members of my family you know, immediate members of my family growing up. So, I'm I'm all in favor of growing up. So, I'm I'm all in favor of growing up. So, I'm I'm all in favor of medical care. medical care. medical care. But the idea that that that But the idea that that that But the idea that that that psychological pain is evidence, or psychological pain is evidence, or psychological pain is evidence, or physical pain for that matter, is physical pain for that matter, is physical pain for that matter, is evidence of being a broken human being. evidence of being a broken human being. evidence of being a broken human being. I I I completely reject that. And and by I I I completely reject that. And and by I I I completely reject that. And and by the way, here's why I reject it. I the way, here's why I reject it. I the way, here's why I reject it. I worship a man who's suffering. worship a man who's suffering. worship a man who's suffering. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. 100%. You know, what's interesting you 100%. You know, what's interesting you 100%. You know, what's interesting you say that because I was going over some say that because I was going over some say that because I was going over some of the chapters again in draft one of of the chapters again in draft one of of the chapters again in draft one of this book. this book. this book. But one of my arguments is that leaning But one of my arguments is that leaning But one of my arguments is that leaning into the suffering part of the gospel into the suffering part of the gospel into the suffering part of the gospel narrative is going to be really narrative is going to be really narrative is going to be really transformative from the dislocation that transformative from the dislocation that transformative from the dislocation that potentially is going to happen from AI.

potentially is going to happen from AI. potentially is going to happen from AI. And it's something that particularly in And it's something that particularly in And it's something that particularly in evangelical world maybe we've avoided a evangelical world maybe we've avoided a evangelical world maybe we've avoided a little bit too much. Just like your little bit too much. Just like your little bit too much. Just like your life's going to be great and it becomes life's going to be great and it becomes life's going to be great and it becomes a suburban dream. But that ultimately a suburban dream. But that ultimately a suburban dream. But that ultimately like what does that do if you ignore the like what does that do if you ignore the like what does that do if you ignore the suffering of suffering of suffering of um um um well, to our faith, right? We share well, to our faith, right? We share well, to our faith, right? We share faith to the most people listen to this faith to the most people listen to this faith to the most people listen to this show. Like what happens if show. Like what happens if show. Like what happens if [clears throat] you're just kind of I [clears throat] you're just kind of I [clears throat] you're just kind of I want to get to Sunday. I'm not going to want to get to Sunday. I'm not going to want to get to Sunday. I'm not going to hang out on Good Friday. Like what hang out on Good Friday. Like what hang out on Good Friday. Like what happens to you and your happiness if you happens to you and your happiness if you happens to you and your happiness if you won't go to suffering? won't go to suffering? won't go to suffering? >> You don't learn from the suffering >> You don't learn from the suffering >> You don't learn from the suffering itself, which is the richness and itself, which is the richness and itself, which is the richness and meaning of your life. meaning of your life. meaning of your life. Nobody when I ask them, you know, how Nobody when I ask them, you know, how Nobody when I ask them, you know, how did you really understand the meaning of did you really understand the meaning of did you really understand the meaning of your life? They They never tell me your life? They They never tell me your life? They They never tell me about, well, I learned it on my beach about, well, I learned it on my beach about, well, I learned it on my beach vacations in Ibiza or something like vacations in Ibiza or something like vacations in Ibiza or something like that. That's not what I got. Or you that. That's not what I got. Or you that. That's not what I got. Or you know, it's all those fun trips to know, it's all those fun trips to know, it's all those fun trips to Disneyland. No, they talk about when my Disneyland. No, they talk about when my Disneyland. No, they talk about when my mother died when I was a kid, mother died when I was a kid, mother died when I was a kid, when I lost my business and I thought I when I lost my business and I thought I when I lost my business and I thought I wasn't going to be able to feed my kids. wasn't going to be able to feed my kids. wasn't going to be able to feed my kids. When When When um when I flunked out of college, um when I flunked out of college, um when I flunked out of college, when I got arrested. You know, people when I got arrested. You know, people when I got arrested. You know, people will talk about They always talk about will talk about They always talk about will talk about They always talk about bad things because suffering is your bad things because suffering is your bad things because suffering is your teacher. I mean, this is teacher. I mean, this is teacher. I mean, this is Look, we get one go round on Earth and Look, we get one go round on Earth and Look, we get one go round on Earth and we're trying to find the only true we're trying to find the only true we're trying to find the only true source of lasting satisfaction.

source of lasting satisfaction. source of lasting satisfaction. Anybody who thinks they're going to get Anybody who thinks they're going to get Anybody who thinks they're going to get satisfaction that lasts in this Earth is satisfaction that lasts in this Earth is satisfaction that lasts in this Earth is is a heretic. That's bad religion. is a heretic. That's bad religion. is a heretic. That's bad religion. I mean, satisfaction I mean, Mick Jagger I mean, satisfaction I mean, Mick Jagger I mean, satisfaction I mean, Mick Jagger said I can't get no satisfaction. The said I can't get no satisfaction. The said I can't get no satisfaction. The truth the problem is that you can't keep truth the problem is that you can't keep truth the problem is that you can't keep no satisfaction because there's only one no satisfaction because there's only one no satisfaction because there's only one source of lasting satisfaction. And the source of lasting satisfaction. And the source of lasting satisfaction. And the satisfaction that goes away and the the satisfaction that goes away and the the satisfaction that goes away and the the hunger and the craving for something hunger and the craving for something hunger and the craving for something that actually lasts and the suffering that actually lasts and the suffering that actually lasts and the suffering that actually goes along with these that actually goes along with these that actually goes along with these lessons that we get, lessons that we get, lessons that we get, that's the point, man. That's the point that's the point, man. That's the point that's the point, man. That's the point of being alive. I recommend to a lot of of being alive. I recommend to a lot of of being alive. I recommend to a lot of my evangelical friends to really absorb my evangelical friends to really absorb my evangelical friends to really absorb this that when they're in their time in this that when they're in their time in this that when they're in their time in their holy hour, their holy hour, their holy hour, you know, in their time of prayer each you know, in their time of prayer each you know, in their time of prayer each day. And and all of us as Christians, we day. And and all of us as Christians, we day. And and all of us as Christians, we should be in a time of conversation with should be in a time of conversation with should be in a time of conversation with God every day. No joke. Because, you God every day. No joke. Because, you God every day. No joke. Because, you know, if you have a real friendship, know, if you have a real friendship, know, if you have a real friendship, you don't go 6 months without talking to you don't go 6 months without talking to you don't go 6 months without talking to your buddy, you know? You don't talk to your buddy, you know? You don't talk to your buddy, you know? You don't talk to your And and so, you need to talk to your And and so, you need to talk to your And and so, you need to talk to God. I recommend, you know, uh something God. I recommend, you know, uh something God. I recommend, you know, uh something that's an old practice that a lot of that's an old practice that a lot of that's an old practice that a lot of Christians have had. Keep a cross on the Christians have had. Keep a cross on the Christians have had. Keep a cross on the table in front of you. But, table in front of you. But, table in front of you. But, at least for half the time, even for my at least for half the time, even for my at least for half the time, even for my Protestant friends, put a crucifix on Protestant friends, put a crucifix on Protestant friends, put a crucifix on the table.

the table. the table. Contemplate the suffering of our savior. Contemplate the suffering of our savior. Contemplate the suffering of our savior. I mean, contemplate that, man. Because I mean, contemplate that, man. Because I mean, contemplate that, man. Because this is solidarity with you. this is solidarity with you. this is solidarity with you. And it's not solidarity with you and and And it's not solidarity with you and and And it's not solidarity with you and and and I got a bonus at work. and I got a bonus at work. and I got a bonus at work. You know, it's not You know, it's not You know, it's not It's like, I heard a funny joke. No. No. It's like, I heard a funny joke. No. No. It's like, I heard a funny joke. No. No. It's solidarity with you in your darkest It's solidarity with you in your darkest It's solidarity with you in your darkest moments. Because those dark moments are moments. Because those dark moments are moments. Because those dark moments are the teachers of what it actually means the teachers of what it actually means the teachers of what it actually means to to to make your way through this world to the make your way through this world to the make your way through this world to the ultimate paradise that we seek, that we ultimate paradise that we seek, that we ultimate paradise that we seek, that we hunger for, that is our hunger for, that is our hunger for, that is our I pray is our ultimate end. >> I can't believe our hour has gone by >> I can't believe our hour has gone by this quickly because the list of this quickly because the list of this quickly because the list of questions I have for you is about this questions I have for you is about this questions I have for you is about this long and I didn't even look at my notes. long and I didn't even look at my notes. long and I didn't even look at my notes. Are there I I can't thank you enough for Are there I I can't thank you enough for Are there I I can't thank you enough for your generosity in coming back. We've your generosity in coming back. We've your generosity in coming back. We've covered a lot. The new book is called covered a lot. The new book is called covered a lot. The new book is called The Meaning of Life. Have I got that The Meaning of Life. Have I got that The Meaning of Life. Have I got that right? It's in my notes. right? It's in my notes. right? It's in my notes. >> The meaning of your life. The meaning of >> The meaning of your life. The meaning of >> The meaning of your life. The meaning of your life. your life. your life. >> your life. Even better. Even better. >> your life. Even better. Even better. >> your life. Even better. Even better. >> It's personalized to the reader. And >> It's personalized to the reader. And >> It's personalized to the reader. And then the subtitle is finding purpose in then the subtitle is finding purpose in then the subtitle is finding purpose in an age of emptiness.

an age of emptiness. an age of emptiness. And I'm I'm grateful to you, Carey, for And I'm I'm grateful to you, Carey, for And I'm I'm grateful to you, Carey, for the work that you're doing, um using the work that you're doing, um using the work that you're doing, um using modern media to actually spread the modern media to actually spread the modern media to actually spread the cross and gospel of Jesus Christ and and cross and gospel of Jesus Christ and and cross and gospel of Jesus Christ and and making better pastors who understand making better pastors who understand making better pastors who understand themselves as themselves as themselves as those who actually can help get the rest those who actually can help get the rest those who actually can help get the rest of us into heaven. I appreciate that a of us into heaven. I appreciate that a of us into heaven. I appreciate that a lot. lot. lot. >> Well, you're helping us a lot. I didn't >> Well, you're helping us a lot. I didn't >> Well, you're helping us a lot. I didn't get to The thing Just so you know, get to The thing Just so you know, get to The thing Just so you know, before we uh shut the laptop, before we uh shut the laptop, before we uh shut the laptop, the thing that I quote you the most on the thing that I quote you the most on the thing that I quote you the most on is real friends versus deal friends. And is real friends versus deal friends. And is real friends versus deal friends. And I know that was something your son said I know that was something your son said I know that was something your son said and it's in strength to strength. It's and it's in strength to strength. It's and it's in strength to strength. It's not a major feature. not a major feature. not a major feature. Next time we talk, I really want to go Next time we talk, I really want to go Next time we talk, I really want to go deep on that because I am convinced that deep on that because I am convinced that deep on that because I am convinced that that is the crisis of loneliness in that is the crisis of loneliness in that is the crisis of loneliness in leadership. We're surrounded by people leadership. We're surrounded by people leadership. We're surrounded by people that want a little piece of us. You You that want a little piece of us. You You that want a little piece of us. You You would be case in point. I mean, I don't would be case in point. I mean, I don't would be case in point. I mean, I don't know how many inbound you get, but it's know how many inbound you get, but it's know how many inbound you get, but it's insane. insane. insane. >> A lot of inbound. Yeah. >> A lot of inbound. Yeah. >> A lot of inbound. Yeah. >> You get a lot of inbound, my friend. And >> You get a lot of inbound, my friend. And >> You get a lot of inbound, my friend. And so do most of the people who listen to so do most of the people who listen to so do most of the people who listen to the show, but your the show, but your the show, but your definition around what a real friend is definition around what a real friend is definition around what a real friend is versus a deal friend life-changing for versus a deal friend life-changing for versus a deal friend life-changing for me. me. me. >> Thank you. I appreciate that. I >> Thank you. I appreciate that. I >> Thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate that and you know, bringing appreciate that and you know, bringing appreciate that and you know, bringing ideas as you are to a lot of people who, ideas as you are to a lot of people who, ideas as you are to a lot of people who, you know, they might be the only person you know, they might be the only person you know, they might be the only person in their role in their role in their role in their whole life and even among in their whole life and even among in their whole life and even among people that they know, people in rural people that they know, people in rural people that they know, people in rural areas for example. And so creating a areas for example. And so creating a areas for example. And so creating a community where we can talk about this community where we can talk about this community where we can talk about this and actually have some friendships.

and actually have some friendships. and actually have some friendships. Really important. Thank you for doing Really important. Thank you for doing Really important. Thank you for doing that. that. that. >> Arthur, thank you. I would encourage >> Arthur, thank you. I would encourage >> Arthur, thank you. I would encourage everybody. I had a quick glance at the everybody. I had a quick glance at the everybody. I had a quick glance at the book. It came in just before we book. It came in just before we book. It came in just before we recorded. recorded. recorded. I am ordering copies for me and friends I am ordering copies for me and friends I am ordering copies for me and friends and would encourage you to do the same and would encourage you to do the same and would encourage you to do the same thing. For all things Arthur C. Brooks, thing. For all things Arthur C. Brooks, thing. For all things Arthur C. Brooks, where's the best place for people to where's the best place for people to where's the best place for people to find you these days? Where are you most find you these days? Where are you most find you these days? Where are you most active? active? active? >> arthurbrooks.com is that is my website >> arthurbrooks.com is that is my website >> arthurbrooks.com is that is my website where everything is going on there. My where everything is going on there. My where everything is going on there. My column comes out every Thursday and column comes out every Thursday and column comes out every Thursday and I'm doing a lot of stuff in media, but I'm doing a lot of stuff in media, but I'm doing a lot of stuff in media, but one-stop shopping for one-stop shopping for one-stop shopping for surveys and ideas and and study guides surveys and ideas and and study guides surveys and ideas and and study guides and you know, book club things for and you know, book club things for and you know, book club things for churches. It's all It's all there at churches. It's all It's all there at churches. It's all It's all there at arthurbrooks.com. arthurbrooks.com. arthurbrooks.com. >> Arthur, thank you. >> Arthur, thank you. >> Arthur, thank you. >> Well, there was a lot in that hour and >> Well, there was a lot in that hour and >> Well, there was a lot in that hour and I'm sure this won't be the last time we I'm sure this won't be the last time we I'm sure this won't be the last time we have Arthur Brooks on the podcast, but have Arthur Brooks on the podcast, but have Arthur Brooks on the podcast, but if you want more information, you can if you want more information, you can if you want more information, you can find it in the show notes. And the find it in the show notes. And the find it in the show notes. And the easiest way to get them is to join my easiest way to get them is to join my easiest way to get them is to join my Art of Leadership Academy. We have Art of Leadership Academy. We have Art of Leadership Academy. We have 20,000 leaders now who are in the 20,000 leaders now who are in the 20,000 leaders now who are in the academy, leaders just like you who are academy, leaders just like you who are academy, leaders just like you who are trying to do what? They're trying to trying to do what? They're trying to trying to do what? They're trying to navigate life. They're trying to navigate life. They're trying to navigate life. They're trying to navigate leadership. And we have navigate leadership. And we have navigate leadership. And we have meaningful troll-free conversations meaningful troll-free conversations meaningful troll-free conversations inside the academy on episodes like inside the academy on episodes like inside the academy on episodes like this. So, if you want to go deeper and this. So, if you want to go deeper and this. So, if you want to go deeper and move from the crowd to the core, all you move from the crowd to the core, all you move from the crowd to the core, all you have to do sign up for free today at the have to do sign up for free today at the have to do sign up for free today at the art of leadership academy.com. You can art of leadership academy.com. You can art of leadership academy.com. You can get the show notes in there and a lot of get the show notes in there and a lot of get the show notes in there and a lot of other stuff that we do to serve you.

other stuff that we do to serve you. other stuff that we do to serve you. We're doing our very best to serve We're doing our very best to serve We're doing our very best to serve church leaders and leaders who care church leaders and leaders who care church leaders and leaders who care about the church. Next episode, we've about the church. Next episode, we've about the church. Next episode, we've got N.I.R. A.L. Also coming up John got N.I.R. A.L. Also coming up John got N.I.R. A.L. Also coming up John Acuff, Todd Wilson, Preston Sprinkle and Acuff, Todd Wilson, Preston Sprinkle and Acuff, Todd Wilson, Preston Sprinkle and a whole lot more. And one of the best a whole lot more. And one of the best a whole lot more. And one of the best things you can do if you enjoyed this things you can do if you enjoyed this things you can do if you enjoyed this episode is to share it with a friend. episode is to share it with a friend. episode is to share it with a friend. So, maybe take the link, text it to a So, maybe take the link, text it to a So, maybe take the link, text it to a buddy or email your staff and say, "Hey, buddy or email your staff and say, "Hey, buddy or email your staff and say, "Hey, we want to discuss this at our next we want to discuss this at our next we want to discuss this at our next meeting." Would love for you to do that. meeting." Would love for you to do that. meeting." Would love for you to do that. And remember the show notes will help And remember the show notes will help And remember the show notes will help you do that even more. So, check out the you do that even more. So, check out the you do that even more. So, check out the art of leadershipacademy.com. art of leadershipacademy.com. art of leadershipacademy.com. And if you would be so kind, if this was And if you would be so kind, if this was And if you would be so kind, if this was especially meaningful to you, leave us a especially meaningful to you, leave us a especially meaningful to you, leave us a review or a comment wherever you're review or a comment wherever you're review or a comment wherever you're listening or watching. And I hope our listening or watching. And I hope our listening or watching. And I hope our time together today helped you identify time together today helped you identify time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're and break a growth barrier you're and break a growth barrier you're facing.