Pete Scazzero Reveals the Truth About Mid-Life Crisis and Leadership Formation

a few that did leave it was primarily a few that did leave it was primarily because I stopped because I stopped because I stopped lying that was a really big decision I I lying that was a really big decision I I lying that was a really big decision I I uh in other words I wasn't uh in other words I wasn't uh in other words I wasn't afraid to tell people or say to people afraid to tell people or say to people afraid to tell people or say to people like no this is like no this is like no this is unacceptable you're proud you're unacceptable you're proud you're unacceptable you're proud you're unteachable yeah you're very unteachable yeah you're very unteachable yeah you're very anointed uh and gifted but you're anointed uh and gifted but you're anointed uh and gifted but you're arrogant and you're arrogant and you're arrogant and you're unteachable and you're not allowed to be unteachable and you're not allowed to be unteachable and you're not allowed to be in leadership here Welcome to the car in leadership here Welcome to the car in leadership here Welcome to the car newoff leadership podcast on YouTube I'm newoff leadership podcast on YouTube I'm newoff leadership podcast on YouTube I'm so glad that you joined us and today I'm so glad that you joined us and today I'm so glad that you joined us and today I'm sitting down with Pete skazo we're going sitting down with Pete skazo we're going sitting down with Pete skazo we're going to talk about whether the midlife crisis to talk about whether the midlife crisis to talk about whether the midlife crisis is actually real why young leaders are is actually real why young leaders are is actually real why young leaders are being misformed malformed and What needs being misformed malformed and What needs being misformed malformed and What needs to change to get you to endure in to change to get you to endure in to change to get you to endure in leadership today's episode is brought to leadership today's episode is brought to leadership today's episode is brought to you by the state of the church if you you by the state of the church if you you by the state of the church if you could know exactly how your people are could know exactly how your people are could know exactly how your people are doing across your church what would you doing across your church what would you doing across your church what would you change well Barna is releasing change well Barna is releasing change well Barna is releasing incredible new research every month and incredible new research every month and incredible new research every month and glue is introducing powerful tools to glue is introducing powerful tools to glue is introducing powerful tools to help you pinpoint the state of your help you pinpoint the state of your help you pinpoint the state of your church text my name Carrie to church text my name Carrie to church text my name Carrie to 46816 and you'll be subscribed to all 46816 and you'll be subscribed to all 46816 and you'll be subscribed to all the latest info on state of the church the latest info on state of the church the latest info on state of the church hey if you're new here make sure you hey if you're new here make sure you hey if you're new here make sure you subscribe before you listen to this subscribe before you listen to this subscribe before you listen to this conversation but now let's get right to conversation but now let's get right to conversation but now let's get right to it my conversation with Pete skazo I've it my conversation with Pete skazo I've it my conversation with Pete skazo I've been playing around with a monastic been playing around with a monastic been playing around with a monastic order one of your questions going to be order one of your questions going to be order one of your questions going to be where's the whole where's the future of where's the whole where's the future of where's the whole where's the future of the church and so I I'm doing a pilot the church and so I I'm doing a pilot the church and so I I'm doing a pilot noviciate and I'm just in a basic pilot noviciate and I'm just in a basic pilot noviciate and I'm just in a basic pilot of this thing I'm just like of this thing I'm just like of this thing I'm just like Jason's in one of my pilot no novices

Jason's in one of my pilot no novices Jason's in one of my pilot no novices Drew's in it you know so it's like a Drew's in it you know so it's like a Drew's in it you know so it's like a pile of folks have been with me for a pile of folks have been with me for a pile of folks have been with me for a long time and and I and I but I began to long time and and I and I but I began to long time and and I and I but I began to kind of flesh out what it I look like kind of flesh out what it I look like kind of flesh out what it I look like have a a monastic order for pastors and have a a monastic order for pastors and have a a monastic order for pastors and leaders who are leading missional leaders who are leading missional leaders who are leading missional churches that that's to me that's my churches that that's to me that's my churches that that's to me that's my focus focus I love the church passionate focus focus I love the church passionate focus focus I love the church passionate for the church but she needs to be for the church but she needs to be for the church but she needs to be revolutionized um but when you get all revolutionized um but when you get all revolutionized um but when you get all down to it unless the lead pastor and down to it unless the lead pastor and down to it unless the lead pastor and the and the the and the the and the leadership internally has been deeply leadership internally has been deeply leadership internally has been deeply transformed it's just program it's just transformed it's just program it's just transformed it's just program it's just strategies it's not going to change strategies it's not going to change strategies it's not going to change anything so it's kind of like I've had anything so it's kind of like I've had anything so it's kind of like I've had this long journey carry of like moving this long journey carry of like moving this long journey carry of like moving back to say yeah it's it's their being back to say yeah it's it's their being back to say yeah it's it's their being you can't give what you don't possess you can't give what you don't possess you can't give what you don't possess etc etc but it it's gotten deeper I've etc etc but it it's gotten deeper I've etc etc but it it's gotten deeper I've gotten so much clearer and so Jerry gotten so much clearer and so Jerry gotten so much clearer and so Jerry looked at me and I and I I said I just looked at me and I and I I said I just looked at me and I and I I said I just I'm I'm enjoying I'm I'm enjoying I'm I'm enjoying this I you know enjoying this pilot this I you know enjoying this pilot this I you know enjoying this pilot learning being with these guys we meet learning being with these guys we meet learning being with these guys we meet once a month and it's got some structure once a month and it's got some structure once a month and it's got some structure too we have a rule of life I wrote a a too we have a rule of life I wrote a a too we have a rule of life I wrote a a very specific rule of life for pastor very specific rule of life for pastor very specific rule of life for pastor it's very I never wrote one this it's very I never wrote one this it's very I never wrote one this specific lest it be legalistic but it's specific lest it be legalistic but it's specific lest it be legalistic but it's a long story how I got there and they a long story how I got there and they a long story how I got there and they loved it very tight like you're doing loved it very tight like you're doing loved it very tight like you're doing Leo deina four or five times a week 20 Leo deina four or five times a week 20 Leo deina four or five times a week 20 minutes of silence every day day alone minutes of silence every day day alone minutes of silence every day day alone with God every month I mean everyone with God every month I mean everyone with God every month I mean everyone does ignatian exercises with a spiritual does ignatian exercises with a spiritual does ignatian exercises with a spiritual director I mean very tight about where director I mean very tight about where director I mean very tight about where where you so like it's a calling and where you so like it's a calling and where you so like it's a calling and you're going to lead from that deep you're going to lead from that deep you're going to lead from that deep place that was basically so anyway and

place that was basically so anyway and place that was basically so anyway and Jerry just said Pete you know we never Jerry just said Pete you know we never Jerry just said Pete you know we never really just forget about it like where really just forget about it like where really just forget about it like where it's going just enjoy what you're it's going just enjoy what you're it's going just enjoy what you're doing everything we've done is organic doing everything we've done is organic doing everything we've done is organic we didn't plan to have a global Movement we didn't plan to have a global Movement we didn't plan to have a global Movement we didn't plan courses we didn't plan it we didn't plan courses we didn't plan it we didn't plan courses we didn't plan it just we just did it life on life we went just we just did it life on life we went just we just did it life on life we went slow we embraced our limits and then slow we embraced our limits and then slow we embraced our limits and then it's exponential because all of a sudden it's exponential because all of a sudden it's exponential because all of a sudden God just breathes on it and lives are God just breathes on it and lives are God just breathes on it and lives are changed and it kind of begins to move changed and it kind of begins to move changed and it kind of begins to move and she goes just hey just forget about and she goes just hey just forget about and she goes just hey just forget about it it's not time you're still learning it it's not time you're still learning it it's not time you're still learning you're enjoying you're enjoying you're enjoying it just life on life just do it and it just life on life just do it and it just life on life just do it and maybe it'll be 5 10 years then it'll maybe it'll be 5 10 years then it'll maybe it'll be 5 10 years then it'll then then the it'll just emerge the God then then the it'll just emerge the God then then the it'll just emerge the God will just produce the structure the will just produce the structure the will just produce the structure the answer what it's supposed to be but you answer what it's supposed to be but you answer what it's supposed to be but you don't have to worry about it so forget don't have to worry about it so forget don't have to worry about it so forget it and I was like darn honey you're it and I was like darn honey you're it and I was like darn honey you're right right right forget it and I just felt so free I was forget it and I just felt so free I was forget it and I just felt so free I was like like like absolutely and because I can write absolutely and because I can write absolutely and because I can write documents I've been writing documents documents I've been writing documents documents I've been writing documents and imagining and I can see the bullseye and imagining and I can see the bullseye and imagining and I can see the bullseye way down the road and God's just like way down the road and God's just like way down the road and God's just like you know I just gave you a step here and you know I just gave you a step here and you know I just gave you a step here and you went crazy on me just take your next you went crazy on me just take your next you went crazy on me just take your next step and just let it all go and I said step and just let it all go and I said step and just let it all go and I said what is it going to really impact our what is it going to really impact our what is it going to really impact our strategic Planet because it's going to strategic Planet because it's going to strategic Planet because it's going to set my confusion just got clear just was set my confusion just got clear just was set my confusion just got clear just was all clear but I get ahead of myself all clear but I get ahead of myself all clear but I get ahead of myself always been a Temptation CU I I'm a always been a Temptation CU I I'm a always been a Temptation CU I I'm a Visionary I could see things but Jerry's Visionary I could see things but Jerry's Visionary I could see things but Jerry's reminder was so good like hey you know

reminder was so good like hey you know reminder was so good like hey you know we didn't plan all this so I wasn't we didn't plan all this so I wasn't we didn't plan all this so I wasn't planning all this to be say Carrie I planning all this to be say Carrie I planning all this to be say Carrie I wasn't planning on eh discipleship wasn't planning on eh discipleship wasn't planning on eh discipleship having a future Beyond pet gazer that having a future Beyond pet gazer that having a future Beyond pet gazer that wasn't a plan I stepped down from New wasn't a plan I stepped down from New wasn't a plan I stepped down from New Life we set up a 5013c to basically be Life we set up a 5013c to basically be Life we set up a 5013c to basically be custodian of Jerry and I and helping custodian of Jerry and I and helping custodian of Jerry and I and helping other pastors but with a commitment not other pastors but with a commitment not other pastors but with a commitment not to build anything right so then all a to build anything right so then all a to build anything right so then all a sudden thing got gigantic grew all over sudden thing got gigantic grew all over sudden thing got gigantic grew all over the world and and I was the one really the world and and I was the one really the world and and I was the one really resistant like I don't think we want to resistant like I don't think we want to resistant like I don't think we want to this to go on Beyond Pete and Jerry so this to go on Beyond Pete and Jerry so this to go on Beyond Pete and Jerry so let's just like let's not even think let's just like let's not even think let's just like let's not even think about the future and but about two three about the future and but about two three about the future and but about two three years ago my board was like Pete this is years ago my board was like Pete this is years ago my board was like Pete this is this is way bigger than you this is not this is way bigger than you this is not this is way bigger than you this is not about you this is about a a a piece for about you this is about a a a piece for about you this is about a a a piece for the global church that there's a charism the global church that there's a charism the global church that there's a charism here that you're carrying that needs to here that you're carrying that needs to here that you're carrying that needs to go on it's not about you and I was like go on it's not about you and I was like go on it's not about you and I was like make a long story short I I finally saw make a long story short I I finally saw make a long story short I I finally saw it I was like yeah this is because other it I was like yeah this is because other it I was like yeah this is because other people of course are off shooting and people of course are off shooting and people of course are off shooting and doing a lot of good stuff he goes but doing a lot of good stuff he goes but doing a lot of good stuff he goes but there's a level of R&D and quality there's a level of R&D and quality there's a level of R&D and quality happening here that others are taking happening here that others are taking happening here that others are taking and you know doing other stuff with he and you know doing other stuff with he and you know doing other stuff with he goes but this movement needs to be goes but this movement needs to be goes but this movement needs to be preserved I'm M like how do you do preserved I'm M like how do you do preserved I'm M like how do you do succession of a par Church of this of a succession of a par Church of this of a succession of a par Church of this of a global movement we've kept it very small global movement we've kept it very small global movement we've kept it very small infrastructure infrastructure infrastructure wise it's a miracle how Jason to me and wise it's a miracle how Jason to me and wise it's a miracle how Jason to me and Drew Drew Drew emerged um it was just so natural it emerged um it was just so natural it emerged um it was just so natural it just it was a God thing and I'm like I just it was a God thing and I'm like I just it was a God thing and I'm like I got a tremendous board and I'm like this got a tremendous board and I'm like this got a tremendous board and I'm like this is like really amazing how it again it is like really amazing how it again it is like really amazing how it again it just kind of came um

just kind of came um just kind of came um and God's timing and so yeah in the next and God's timing and so yeah in the next and God's timing and so yeah in the next two years so I'm in the middle of two years so I'm in the middle of two years so I'm in the middle of mentoring these guys quite a bit and mentoring these guys quite a bit and mentoring these guys quite a bit and we're shift you know we're mean they we're shift you know we're mean they we're shift you know we're mean they bring gifts I don't bring to the table bring gifts I don't bring to the table bring gifts I don't bring to the table and I can continue to write and I can continue to write and I can continue to write Mentor uh dream but not run any Mentor uh dream but not run any Mentor uh dream but not run any organization and they're already doing organization and they're already doing organization and they're already doing so many things I better than me and it's so many things I better than me and it's so many things I better than me and it's wonderful so no you know it's it's wonderful so no you know it's it's wonderful so no you know it's it's interesting by the way I have started interesting by the way I have started interesting by the way I have started recording so we can decide at the end recording so we can decide at the end recording so we can decide at the end whether we leave this in or not um but whether we leave this in or not um but whether we leave this in or not um but you know this is a good conversation a you know this is a good conversation a you know this is a good conversation a lot of leaders need to hear so I hear a lot of leaders need to hear so I hear a lot of leaders need to hear so I hear a couple of things in that Pete um you couple of things in that Pete um you couple of things in that Pete um you know and you are we've we've interviewed know and you are we've we've interviewed know and you are we've we've interviewed you a few times a lot of people are you a few times a lot of people are you a few times a lot of people are familiar with you by Nature you're familiar with you by Nature you're familiar with you by Nature you're driven person you make things happen driven person you make things happen driven person you make things happen right like that's that's what you do and right like that's that's what you do and right like that's that's what you do and I think most of the people who listen to I think most of the people who listen to I think most of the people who listen to a show like this find themselves in this a show like this find themselves in this a show like this find themselves in this category yes and I'd love for you to category yes and I'd love for you to category yes and I'd love for you to reflect a little bit on the difference reflect a little bit on the difference reflect a little bit on the difference between making things happen in your between making things happen in your between making things happen in your last 18 years or so where they've last 18 years or so where they've last 18 years or so where they've happened more organically what are what happened more organically what are what happened more organically what are what are some of the you know when you look are some of the you know when you look are some of the you know when you look at emotionally healthy discipleship your at emotionally healthy discipleship your at emotionally healthy discipleship your whole emotionally healthy movement yeah whole emotionally healthy movement yeah whole emotionally healthy movement yeah what is the difference about how you what is the difference about how you what is the difference about how you approach that versus how you approach that versus how you approach that versus how you approached um say the early days of approached um say the early days of approached um say the early days of ministry when we're all trying to make ministry when we're all trying to make ministry when we're all trying to make stuff happen me too absolutely so stuff happen me too absolutely so stuff happen me too absolutely so actually my my critical turning point actually my my critical turning point actually my my critical turning point was actually about 29 years ago yeah and

was actually about 29 years ago yeah and was actually about 29 years ago yeah and so it's when I got on this journey which so it's when I got on this journey which so it's when I got on this journey which we call now emotionally healthy we call now emotionally healthy we call now emotionally healthy discipleship or leadership but it was discipleship or leadership but it was discipleship or leadership but it was that shift where okay yes I I have God's that shift where okay yes I I have God's that shift where okay yes I I have God's given me some giftings as a leader uh given me some giftings as a leader uh given me some giftings as a leader uh yeah I'm Type uh but I was very unaware yeah I'm Type uh but I was very unaware yeah I'm Type uh but I was very unaware uh you know I didn't have Spirit uh you know I didn't have Spirit uh you know I didn't have Spirit self-awareness self-awareness self-awareness I didn't I didn't even have secular I didn't I didn't even have secular I didn't I didn't even have secular self-awareness let alone Spirit self-awareness let alone Spirit self-awareness let alone Spirit self-awareness and so uh at the time self-awareness and so uh at the time self-awareness and so uh at the time we're talking 29 years ago that was we're talking 29 years ago that was we're talking 29 years ago that was revolutionary because I was driving I revolutionary because I was driving I revolutionary because I was driving I was planning churches we had six was planning churches we had six was planning churches we had six churches five six churches and five six churches five six churches and five six churches five six churches and five six years it was it was terrible yeah the years it was it was terrible yeah the years it was it was terrible yeah the Nut Hill is your wife said I hate this Nut Hill is your wife said I hate this Nut Hill is your wife said I hate this I'm not sure I love you yeah got a I'm not sure I love you yeah got a I'm not sure I love you yeah got a journey so that was a huge transition journey so that was a huge transition journey so that was a huge transition and it it it it it that is when I began and it it it it it that is when I began and it it it it it that is when I began to St to St to St things making things happen uh in two things making things happen uh in two things making things happen uh in two big reasons one is I began to lead out big reasons one is I began to lead out big reasons one is I began to lead out of my marriage that was revolutionary um of my marriage that was revolutionary um of my marriage that was revolutionary um in other words that we were actually one in other words that we were actually one in other words that we were actually one flesh and that I was no longer going to flesh and that I was no longer going to flesh and that I was no longer going to make decisions out of um what I felt God make decisions out of um what I felt God make decisions out of um what I felt God was saying that was like that was was saying that was like that was was saying that was like that was revolutionary that was a huge slowdown revolutionary that was a huge slowdown revolutionary that was a huge slowdown and secondly I began to pay attention to and secondly I began to pay attention to and secondly I began to pay attention to my my my insides uh what I was feeling and of insides uh what I was feeling and of insides uh what I was feeling and of course lots of anxiety and then I got in course lots of anxiety and then I got in course lots of anxiety and then I got in touch with my family I started family of touch with my family I started family of touch with my family I started family of arig and work and which led me into the arig and work and which led me into the arig and work and which led me into the whole contemplative monastic movement whole contemplative monastic movement whole contemplative monastic movement stuff ignation spirituality so it was

stuff ignation spirituality so it was stuff ignation spirituality so it was revolutionary um this this journey now revolutionary um this this journey now revolutionary um this this journey now it's deepen as you know you truths it's deepen as you know you truths it's deepen as you know you truths deepen they continue to deepen as the deepen they continue to deepen as the deepen they continue to deepen as the decades decades decades pass but I have I recognize I have this pass but I have I recognize I have this pass but I have I recognize I have this god-given god-given god-given it's a gift it's a power it's but it's it's a gift it's a power it's but it's it's a gift it's a power it's but it's also got a hug Shadow um also got a hug Shadow um also got a hug Shadow um and dangerous and dangerous and dangerous without uh serious formation so you know without uh serious formation so you know without uh serious formation so you know in Jesus and so again I I'd say we're in Jesus and so again I I'd say we're in Jesus and so again I I'd say we're about when I say mo emotional health is about when I say mo emotional health is about when I say mo emotional health is is has many different facets to it but is has many different facets to it but is has many different facets to it but we're about a a slow down spirituality we're about a a slow down spirituality we're about a a slow down spirituality and so uh I've been very fortunate that and so uh I've been very fortunate that and so uh I've been very fortunate that Jerry and I are walking together on and Jerry and I are walking together on and Jerry and I are walking together on and have been all these years so she's able have been all these years so she's able have been all these years so she's able to say things like she said to me to say things like she said to me to say things like she said to me yesterday like hey Pete everything's yesterday like hey Pete everything's yesterday like hey Pete everything's been organic like like reminded me hey been organic like like reminded me hey been organic like like reminded me hey just relax God will God will birth it just relax God will God will birth it just relax God will God will birth it when it's time and maybe it'll be 75 when it's time and maybe it'll be 75 when it's time and maybe it'll be 75 when it's birth but that's fine but when it's birth but that's fine but when it's birth but that's fine but let's enjoy you monitoring let's enjoy you monitoring let's enjoy you monitoring Joy uh monitoring my level of being on Joy uh monitoring my level of being on Joy uh monitoring my level of being on the inside that was just and stopped the inside that was just and stopped the inside that was just and stopped success was no longer the Evangelical success was no longer the Evangelical success was no longer the Evangelical definition of success like I I I saw definition of success like I I I saw definition of success like I I I saw fortunately fortunately fortunately the it was it was a terrible yoke to the it was it was a terrible yoke to the it was it was a terrible yoke to carry um and getting free from that and carry um and getting free from that and carry um and getting free from that and saying no we're about like Jesus and saying no we're about like Jesus and saying no we're about like Jesus and doing his will that's success first of doing his will that's success first of doing his will that's success first of all and then secondly doing it his way all and then secondly doing it his way all and then secondly doing it his way and I think the Temptations opened up to and I think the Temptations opened up to and I think the Temptations opened up to me I I to me it's one of the most me I I to me it's one of the most me I I to me it's one of the most important texts for every leite pastor

important texts for every leite pastor important texts for every leite pastor we should all have to pass through the we should all have to pass through the we should all have to pass through the Temptations before we start even of like Temptations before we start even of like Temptations before we start even of like s money and influence and size and all s money and influence and size and all s money and influence and size and all that people Applause like all that stuff that people Applause like all that stuff that people Applause like all that stuff that before we even get started like that before we even get started like that before we even get started like that getting pulled out of us we don't that getting pulled out of us we don't that getting pulled out of us we don't we just want to get I I got pushed ahead we just want to get I I got pushed ahead we just want to get I I got pushed ahead and you know as a Seminary graduate and and you know as a Seminary graduate and and you know as a Seminary graduate and church planner I'm like hey this guy can church planner I'm like hey this guy can church planner I'm like hey this guy can do it go make it happen you know and I do it go make it happen you know and I do it go make it happen you know and I it almost destroyed me I I I am very it almost destroyed me I I I am very it almost destroyed me I I I am very grateful for grateful for grateful for being where I am today by the grace of being where I am today by the grace of being where I am today by the grace of God because as you know and you God because as you know and you God because as you know and you mentioned in one of your emails here the mentioned in one of your emails here the mentioned in one of your emails here the question we've been around scandals for question we've been around scandals for question we've been around scandals for almost for me I've been around scandals almost for me I've been around scandals almost for me I've been around scandals for almost 50 years it's not I'm not for almost 50 years it's not I'm not for almost 50 years it's not I'm not it's not not new what's new is the it's not not new what's new is the it's not not new what's new is the social media uh social media uh social media uh exposure but uh it's not new and it's exposure but uh it's not new and it's exposure but uh it's not new and it's not going to stop either until the whole not going to stop either until the whole not going to stop either until the whole way we do training and formation of way we do training and formation of way we do training and formation of pastors and leaders changes there pastors and leaders changes there pastors and leaders changes there something if I got the math right you something if I got the math right you something if I got the math right you were around 35 when you had your were around 35 when you had your were around 35 when you had your Epiphany the crisis the transformation Epiphany the crisis the transformation Epiphany the crisis the transformation into who you became today I was into who you became today I was into who you became today I was 41 um there's a lot of leaders listening 41 um there's a lot of leaders listening 41 um there's a lot of leaders listening to this episode who are in that St stage to this episode who are in that St stage to this episode who are in that St stage of Life Is there is there something of Life Is there is there something of Life Is there is there something about your 30s early 40s that really uh about your 30s early 40s that really uh about your 30s early 40s that really uh you know the way to say it is The Jig Is you know the way to say it is The Jig Is you know the way to say it is The Jig Is up like it's kind of like I can't keep I up like it's kind of like I can't keep I up like it's kind of like I can't keep I knew for me I didn't declare a Finish

knew for me I didn't declare a Finish knew for me I didn't declare a Finish Line so my body did it's just like you Line so my body did it's just like you Line so my body did it's just like you know 100 to zero in 3.8 seconds that's know 100 to zero in 3.8 seconds that's know 100 to zero in 3.8 seconds that's what happened to me and you had a wakeup what happened to me and you had a wakeup what happened to me and you had a wakeup call with Jerry and I must say Tony Tony call with Jerry and I must say Tony Tony call with Jerry and I must say Tony Tony is so grateful that that happened to me is so grateful that that happened to me is so grateful that that happened to me we are way more on the same page today we are way more on the same page today we are way more on the same page today than we wor yeah you know 20 years ago than we wor yeah you know 20 years ago than we wor yeah you know 20 years ago when that happened 18 years ago so uh when that happened 18 years ago so uh when that happened 18 years ago so uh I'm just curious as to um whether I'm just curious as to um whether I'm just curious as to um whether There's Something About That season of There's Something About That season of There's Something About That season of life and then what happens if you don't life and then what happens if you don't life and then what happens if you don't change if you get the signs but there's change if you get the signs but there's change if you get the signs but there's no wakeup call well first let's so the no wakeup call well first let's so the no wakeup call well first let's so the first question first I don't think I I first question first I don't think I I first question first I don't think I I think no I'm actually quite convinced think no I'm actually quite convinced think no I'm actually quite convinced it's not about the midlife crisis which it's not about the midlife crisis which it's not about the midlife crisis which is written about in many many different is written about in many many different is written about in many many different places yeah I think places yeah I think places yeah I think it's faulty it's faulty it's faulty formation so we are formed by our formation so we are formed by our formation so we are formed by our families of origin which is very broken families of origin which is very broken families of origin which is very broken it's not the new family of Jesus and it's not the new family of Jesus and it's not the new family of Jesus and then we get trained to be disciples and then we get trained to be disciples and then we get trained to be disciples and then then then leaders in a movement that has formed us leaders in a movement that has formed us leaders in a movement that has formed us in a faulty way so now we have two in a faulty way so now we have two in a faulty way so now we have two layers of bad formation so yeah it's layers of bad formation so yeah it's layers of bad formation so yeah it's going to hit most pastors and leaders in going to hit most pastors and leaders in going to hit most pastors and leaders in their 30s and 40s because it's a bad their 30s and 40s because it's a bad their 30s and 40s because it's a bad theology God didn't build us to lead theology God didn't build us to lead theology God didn't build us to lead that way it's it's actually biblically that way it's it's actually biblically that way it's it's actually biblically off and because it's biblically off you off and because it's biblically off you off and because it's biblically off you are going to hit a wall now some people are going to hit a wall now some people are going to hit a wall now some people as you know Carrie they're they're as you know Carrie they're they're as you know Carrie they're they're they're you and I are headstrong they're they're you and I are headstrong they're they're you and I are headstrong they're so so so headstrong I can think of one person I

headstrong I can think of one person I headstrong I can think of one person I mean he pushed to mean he pushed to mean he pushed to 80 until he took the whole church down 80 until he took the whole church down 80 until he took the whole church down and I was like there was no way he could and I was like there was no way he could and I was like there was no way he could do succession but his you know we're do succession but his you know we're do succession but his you know we're most of us are like we just don't quit most of us are like we just don't quit most of us are like we just don't quit like hit we'll hit wall yeah hit it like hit we'll hit wall yeah hit it like hit we'll hit wall yeah hit it again give me the next wall give me the again give me the next wall give me the again give me the next wall give me the next wall Jesus I love I'm committed I'm next wall Jesus I love I'm committed I'm next wall Jesus I love I'm committed I'm I'm going to be solid and stable for I'm going to be solid and stable for I'm going to be solid and stable for everybody else to hang their hats on so everybody else to hang their hats on so everybody else to hang their hats on so we can go forward so we have such strong we can go forward so we have such strong we can go forward so we have such strong sense of even calling and from God yeah sense of even calling and from God yeah sense of even calling and from God yeah um but mixed in with some you know um but mixed in with some you know um but mixed in with some you know selfish you know unresolved stuff but I selfish you know unresolved stuff but I selfish you know unresolved stuff but I think it's the we have to address that think it's the we have to address that think it's the we have to address that the formation that we had was poor it the formation that we had was poor it the formation that we had was poor it was shallow it had unbiblical aspects to was shallow it had unbiblical aspects to was shallow it had unbiblical aspects to it it was very Western and it was only a it it was very Western and it was only a it it was very Western and it was only a matter of time before it hit reality and matter of time before it hit reality and matter of time before it hit reality and that the way I was not equipped to lead that the way I was not equipped to lead that the way I was not equipped to lead a a a church there were so many unresolved church there were so many unresolved church there were so many unresolved aspects of my discipleship my formation aspects of my discipleship my formation aspects of my discipleship my formation and like you I went to all the I went to and like you I went to all the I went to and like you I went to all the I went to Great seminaries I went the best Great seminaries I went the best Great seminaries I went the best leadership conference I read all the leadership conference I read all the leadership conference I read all the books it didn't matter it was life on books it didn't matter it was life on books it didn't matter it was life on life I'd never had the kind of formation life I'd never had the kind of formation life I'd never had the kind of formation that was needed and uh I was a accident that was needed and uh I was a accident that was needed and uh I was a accident waiting to happen so fortunately we both waiting to happen so fortunately we both waiting to happen so fortunately we both came out you know we got some good new came out you know we got some good new came out you know we got some good new we got some adjustments to our formation we got some adjustments to our formation we got some adjustments to our formation that were very painful has taken us many that were very painful has taken us many that were very painful has taken us many years but I am convinced at this point years but I am convinced at this point years but I am convinced at this point that the whole way we form the leaders that the whole way we form the leaders that the whole way we form the leaders in their teens and their 20s and their in their teens and their 20s and their in their teens and their 20s and their early 30s who are going to be the Future early 30s who are going to be the Future early 30s who are going to be the Future Leaders of this church in the next 10 20

Leaders of this church in the next 10 20 Leaders of this church in the next 10 20 30 years that's the people I'm really 30 years that's the people I'm really 30 years that's the people I'm really concerned about because everybody's concerned about because everybody's concerned about because everybody's tweaking all the seminaries Bible tweaking all the seminaries Bible tweaking all the seminaries Bible schools all the churches we're all doing schools all the churches we're all doing schools all the churches we're all doing formation better you know we but we're formation better you know we but we're formation better you know we but we're making tweaks we're making adjust it's making tweaks we're making adjust it's making tweaks we're making adjust it's not a little adjustment this isn't like not a little adjustment this isn't like not a little adjustment this isn't like let's tune up the car this is the engine let's tune up the car this is the engine let's tune up the car this is the engine needs to be replaced like evangelicalism needs to be replaced like evangelicalism needs to be replaced like evangelicalism birthed out of American North American birthed out of American North American birthed out of American North American history has got such history has got such history has got such gaps holes that unless we do a serious gaps holes that unless we do a serious gaps holes that unless we do a serious reworking of how we do formation of reworking of how we do formation of reworking of how we do formation of leaders and pastors uh I I don't see the leaders and pastors uh I I don't see the leaders and pastors uh I I don't see the church being revolutionized to address church being revolutionized to address church being revolutionized to address the challenges that we're facing now and the challenges that we're facing now and the challenges that we're facing now and the next 5 10 20 30 years so that's the next 5 10 20 30 years so that's the next 5 10 20 30 years so that's that's the revolution need in the church that's the revolution need in the church that's the revolution need in the church that where I'm concerned about which that where I'm concerned about which that where I'm concerned about which goes back to how we form leaders and goes back to how we form leaders and goes back to how we form leaders and pastors so yeah that's a long answer pastors so yeah that's a long answer pastors so yeah that's a long answer Carrie I think it's more than the Carrie I think it's more than the Carrie I think it's more than the midlife crisis thing much more no that's midlife crisis thing much more no that's midlife crisis thing much more no that's that's that really resonates at a deep that's that really resonates at a deep that's that really resonates at a deep level but what happens when you when you level but what happens when you when you level but what happens when you when you do hit the wall and it changes your life do hit the wall and it changes your life do hit the wall and it changes your life like it did for you it did for me and like it did for you it did for me and like it did for you it did for me and it's it's done for many other leaders it's it's done for many other leaders it's it's done for many other leaders where you're yeah fundamentally where you're yeah fundamentally where you're yeah fundamentally different you're Jacob wrestling the different you're Jacob wrestling the different you're Jacob wrestling the angel you never walk the same way again angel you never walk the same way again angel you never walk the same way again right that can Usher in a period of like right that can Usher in a period of like right that can Usher in a period of like very disorient very very disorient very very disorient very disorienting your compass you don't even disorienting your compass you don't even disorienting your compass you don't even know which way is North anymore and I

know which way is North anymore and I know which way is North anymore and I don't know that I'm entirely out of it don't know that I'm entirely out of it don't know that I'm entirely out of it yet but it still feels like 18 years yet but it still feels like 18 years yet but it still feels like 18 years later these are new clothes you know later these are new clothes you know later these are new clothes you know it's it's definitely much more it's it's definitely much more it's it's definitely much more integrated into who I am but I wonder if integrated into who I am but I wonder if integrated into who I am but I wonder if you can speak to leaders because i' I've you can speak to leaders because i' I've you can speak to leaders because i' I've talk I'm thinking of one guy in talk I'm thinking of one guy in talk I'm thinking of one guy in particular that I tracked pretty closely particular that I tracked pretty closely particular that I tracked pretty closely with has had a long sabatical knows that with has had a long sabatical knows that with has had a long sabatical knows that there are some changes that have to be there are some changes that have to be there are some changes that have to be made but still has a made but still has a made but still has a fear that if he really goes deep he's fear that if he really goes deep he's fear that if he really goes deep he's going to lose the magic you know that going to lose the magic you know that going to lose the magic you know that makes him a great leader and I had that makes him a great leader and I had that makes him a great leader and I had that fear too um ironically for you and for fear too um ironically for you and for fear too um ironically for you and for me God grew our leadership far beyond me God grew our leadership far beyond me God grew our leadership far beyond anything we would ever imagine and you anything we would ever imagine and you anything we would ever imagine and you know our and our influence and but I know our and our influence and but I know our and our influence and but I wonder if you could speak to that period wonder if you could speak to that period wonder if you could speak to that period season of of season of of season of of disorientation um did you experience disorientation um did you experience disorientation um did you experience that if so for how long what happened that if so for how long what happened that if so for how long what happened Etc yeah I think to to your person who's Etc yeah I think to to your person who's Etc yeah I think to to your person who's concerned about losing the magic I I concerned about losing the magic I I concerned about losing the magic I I think yeah he that's part of what needs think yeah he that's part of what needs think yeah he that's part of what needs to happen is you lose the need to have to happen is you lose the need to have to happen is you lose the need to have the Magic in other the Magic in other the Magic in other words that's the core issue that you words that's the core issue that you words that's the core issue that you actually need this so I think whether you're wow it's it's do you know the you're wow it's it's do you know the story of this it's one of the desert story of this it's one of the desert story of this it's one of the desert father stories it's one of my favorite father stories it's one of my favorite father stories it's one of my favorite ones a guy a guy comes to the desert I'm

ones a guy a guy comes to the desert I'm ones a guy a guy comes to the desert I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a paraphrase gonna I'm gonna give you a paraphrase gonna I'm gonna give you a paraphrase that to make it simpler to grasp quickly that to make it simpler to grasp quickly that to make it simpler to grasp quickly and for the listeners so a guy comes to and for the listeners so a guy comes to and for the listeners so a guy comes to a desert you know third fourth Century a desert you know third fourth Century a desert you know third fourth Century goes to one of the obas say hey you know goes to one of the obas say hey you know goes to one of the obas say hey you know what do I need to to be you know what do I need to to be you know what do I need to to be you know basically holy you know it comes for the basically holy you know it comes for the basically holy you know it comes for the weekend comes for the weekend and uh to weekend comes for the weekend and uh to weekend comes for the weekend and uh to be a holy man be saved you know and and be a holy man be saved you know and and be a holy man be saved you know and and so the ABA says the wise as their father so the ABA says the wise as their father so the ABA says the wise as their father lives there says you know go to the lives there says you know go to the lives there says you know go to the cemetery and uh spend the night cursing cemetery and uh spend the night cursing cemetery and uh spend the night cursing all the and uh cursing all the um Graves all the and uh cursing all the um Graves all the and uh cursing all the um Graves so he spends the night curses all tell so he spends the night curses all tell so he spends the night curses all tell you're no good you're a bomb you you got you're no good you're a bomb you you got you're no good you're a bomb you you got you're Lou you you're a hypocrite and he you're Lou you you're a hypocrite and he you're Lou you you're a hypocrite and he comes back the next day to the ABA and comes back the next day to the ABA and comes back the next day to the ABA and says and the ABA says what do they say says and the ABA says what do they say says and the ABA says what do they say didn't say anything he says said okay didn't say anything he says said okay didn't say anything he says said okay now tonight go back and praise them tell now tonight go back and praise them tell now tonight go back and praise them tell them they're fantastic tremendous them they're fantastic tremendous them they're fantastic tremendous awesome and uh all night so he does that awesome and uh all night so he does that awesome and uh all night so he does that you know and you the best apostle that you know and you the best apostle that you know and you the best apostle that ever lived you changed the world you ever lived you changed the world you ever lived you changed the world you were an incredible and he comes back the were an incredible and he comes back the were an incredible and he comes back the next day the ABA says what would they next day the ABA says what would they next day the ABA says what would they say and he says they didn't say anything say and he says they didn't say anything say and he says they didn't say anything he goes great goes when you are dead to he goes great goes when you are dead to he goes great goes when you are dead to both praise and both praise and both praise and criticism then we can start criticism then we can start criticism then we can start and I think there's something there to and I think there's something there to and I think there's something there to that I think again that's the exact that I think again that's the exact that I think again that's the exact opposite of what we're taught which is opposite of what we're taught which is opposite of what we're taught which is how can I make the biggest impact with how can I make the biggest impact with how can I make the biggest impact with my life I I I had a leader who's been my life I I I had a leader who's been my life I I I had a leader who's been around for decades say to me recently he around for decades say to me recently he around for decades say to me recently he said said said Pete I'm I'm working my life he's

Pete I'm I'm working my life he's Pete I'm I'm working my life he's actually he's got a very large Ministry actually he's got a very large Ministry actually he's got a very large Ministry and he goes I'm and I'm looking for and he goes I'm and I'm looking for and he goes I'm and I'm looking for convergence of you know this decade of convergence of you know this decade of convergence of you know this decade of how I can make the best impact for the how I can make the best impact for the how I can make the best impact for the kingdom of God I'm working on I'm all kingdom of God I'm working on I'm all kingdom of God I'm working on I'm all excited and I said you know I'm not sure excited and I said you know I'm not sure excited and I said you know I'm not sure that's the first question you should be that's the first question you should be that's the first question you should be asking I said maybe it's the second or asking I said maybe it's the second or asking I said maybe it's the second or not maybe it's the third or fourth not maybe it's the third or fourth not maybe it's the third or fourth question I said the first question is question I said the first question is question I said the first question is what's God's will for what's God's will for what's God's will for you I said supposed God wants to ask you you I said supposed God wants to ask you you I said supposed God wants to ask you to go to go to go and uh join a monastery or go work and uh join a monastery or go work and uh join a monastery or go work in Zimbabwe with in Zimbabwe with in Zimbabwe with orphans like I mean the point is Jesus I orphans like I mean the point is Jesus I orphans like I mean the point is Jesus I I have no agenda but yours and are you I have no agenda but yours and are you I have no agenda but yours and are you in a place where actually my success for in a place where actually my success for in a place where actually my success for me is to do the will of Jesus and he me is to do the will of Jesus and he me is to do the will of Jesus and he says that is such a radical thought and says that is such a radical thought and says that is such a radical thought and I'm and I'm thinking to I'm and I'm thinking to I'm and I'm thinking to myself I said point is you have no myself I said point is you have no myself I said point is you have no agenda you you you know ignacious agenda you you you know ignacious agenda you you you know ignacious spirituality we call that you have to be spirituality we call that you have to be spirituality we call that you have to be indifferent and if you're not indifferent and if you're not indifferent and if you're not indifferent when you come and ask God indifferent when you come and ask God indifferent when you come and ask God for his will you're you're only not for his will you're you're only not for his will you're you're only not asking for his will because you've asking for his will because you've asking for his will because you've already got agenda I want I really I'm already got agenda I want I really I'm already got agenda I want I really I'm asking for your will but I really want asking for your will but I really want asking for your will but I really want this to happen and it goes until you get this to happen and it goes until you get this to happen and it goes until you get to a place of like I don't I'm dead to to a place of like I don't I'm dead to to a place of like I don't I'm dead to everything I really just want your will everything I really just want your will everything I really just want your will you're really not doing discernment you're really not doing discernment you're really not doing discernment even but the fact that he said to me even but the fact that he said to me even but the fact that he said to me he's a friend of M to because Peter he he's a friend of M to because Peter he he's a friend of M to because Peter he said to me this is radical I'm

said to me this is radical I'm said to me this is radical I'm like it is radical on how based on our like it is radical on how based on our like it is radical on how based on our formation it's radical and I think again formation it's radical and I think again formation it's radical and I think again that's bringing out some of the cracks that's bringing out some of the cracks that's bringing out some of the cracks of our definition of success is I want of our definition of success is I want of our definition of success is I want to do what's going to have the biggest to do what's going to have the biggest to do what's going to have the biggest impact and that's not the first question impact and that's not the first question impact and that's not the first question to to to ask question the first question in your ask question the first question in your ask question the first question in your view is what is God's will yeah that's view is what is God's will yeah that's view is what is God's will yeah that's why the church is asking what what Jesus why the church is asking what what Jesus why the church is asking what what Jesus what's your will for me and what's your what's your will for me and what's your what's your will for me and what's your will for our local congregation why' you will for our local congregation why' you will for our local congregation why' you raise us up yeah we're about of course raise us up yeah we're about of course raise us up yeah we're about of course we want the world to know Jesus and His we want the world to know Jesus and His we want the world to know Jesus and His glory but what's our particular place in glory but what's our particular place in glory but what's our particular place in that larger plan of God in the world that larger plan of God in the world that larger plan of God in the world that that's the question and and not and that that's the question and and not and that that's the question and and not and I want to fulfill that we want to I want to fulfill that we want to I want to fulfill that we want to fulfill that but why do I want something fulfill that but why do I want something fulfill that but why do I want something 10,000 people or 20,000 people or this 10,000 people or 20,000 people or this 10,000 people or 20,000 people or this size Ministry whatever if that's not what God has for whatever if that's not what God has for me to do maybe he's got you to do that me to do maybe he's got you to do that me to do maybe he's got you to do that or Joe to do that down the street I've or Joe to do that down the street I've or Joe to do that down the street I've got maybe a piece to support him got maybe a piece to support him got maybe a piece to support him underneath him now again I'm taking into underneath him now again I'm taking into underneath him now again I'm taking into account my gifts and callings and account my gifts and callings and account my gifts and callings and passions and all that but the first passions and all that but the first passions and all that but the first question I think we're asking all the question I think we're asking all the question I think we're asking all the time is it's Meister eart thing of we've time is it's Meister eart thing of we've time is it's Meister eart thing of we've lost our lives so we can gain them and lost our lives so we can gain them and lost our lives so we can gain them and we we hold we we definitely I don't even we we hold we we definitely I don't even we we hold we we definitely I don't even I don't even say we have goals anymore I don't even say we have goals anymore I don't even say we have goals anymore we have priorities that we think we we have priorities that we think we we have priorities that we think we believe are God's priorities but you believe are God's priorities but you believe are God's priorities but you know we hold them lightly because God is know we hold them lightly because God is know we hold them lightly because God is so full of

so full of so full of surprises he is full of surprises you surprises he is full of surprises you surprises he is full of surprises you know when Jerry said that to you back to know when Jerry said that to you back to know when Jerry said that to you back to where we started in this conversation where we started in this conversation where we started in this conversation about the whole idea for a monastic about the whole idea for a monastic about the whole idea for a monastic order and you know we're going to build order and you know we're going to build order and you know we're going to build this scale this we have documents and this scale this we have documents and this scale this we have documents and then she's like why would you do this then she's like why would you do this then she's like why would you do this and you're like you're right you're and you're like you're right you're and you're like you're right you're right we need to we need to let it uh go right we need to we need to let it uh go right we need to we need to let it uh go organically was organically was organically was there what was the part of you that was there what was the part of you that was there what was the part of you that was still driving at that point and then still driving at that point and then still driving at that point and then what was the part of you that when you what was the part of you that when you what was the part of you that when you heard that from Jerry kind of went of heard that from Jerry kind of went of heard that from Jerry kind of went of course I just would like you to break course I just would like you to break course I just would like you to break that process down a little bit more yeah that process down a little bit more yeah that process down a little bit more yeah I mean I I I was aware I was in a I mean I I I was aware I was in a I mean I I I was aware I was in a process of discernment but the way I process of discernment but the way I process of discernment but the way I going to the way going to the way going to the way I um I um I um function in discernment on and being a function in discernment on and being a function in discernment on and being a Visionary that Visionary that Visionary that I I'll I see something like this that I I'll I see something like this that I I'll I see something like this that I've been pondering for actually I have I've been pondering for actually I have I've been pondering for actually I have been pondering this for like 23 years been pondering this for like 23 years been pondering this for like 23 years believe it or not so that's a minute I'm believe it or not so that's a minute I'm believe it or not so that's a minute I'm I write listen Carrie I'm WR I I write I write listen Carrie I'm WR I I write I write listen Carrie I'm WR I I write something it's years like I I'm I'm it's something it's years like I I'm I'm it's something it's years like I I'm I'm it's years so I'm just that kind of guy so years so I'm just that kind of guy so years so I'm just that kind of guy so but I like to work it all out like what but I like to work it all out like what but I like to work it all out like what would it mean to actually have a would it mean to actually have a would it mean to actually have a monastic order for pastors and leaders monastic order for pastors and leaders monastic order for pastors and leaders that's Global and then I start fleshing that's Global and then I start fleshing that's Global and then I start fleshing out oh you got these three stages you're out oh you got these three stages you're out oh you got these three stages you're gonna have these introductory treats gonna have these introductory treats gonna have these introductory treats you've got and I start like playing you've got and I start like playing you've got and I start like playing around all this stuff and then so I had around all this stuff and then so I had around all this stuff and then so I had it all out like in three pages four it all out like in three pages four it all out like in three pages four pages like an outline I I have a pages like an outline I I have a pages like an outline I I have a spiritual director who leads a monastic

spiritual director who leads a monastic spiritual director who leads a monastic order I bounced it off him and we order I bounced it off him and we order I bounced it off him and we chatted about it and I looked at what's chatted about it and I looked at what's chatted about it and I looked at what's out you know other people were doing and out you know other people were doing and out you know other people were doing and I I've been studying monastic orders for I I've been studying monastic orders for I I've been studying monastic orders for decades but felt like such a heavy yoke decades but felt like such a heavy yoke decades but felt like such a heavy yoke like it felt it felt so unenjoyable to like it felt it felt so unenjoyable to like it felt it felt so unenjoyable to me and that's why so I I was I was I was me and that's why so I I was I was I was me and that's why so I I was I was I was listening to God inside of me of why how listening to God inside of me of why how listening to God inside of me of why how can I be so excited about this vision can I be so excited about this vision can I be so excited about this vision and yet have such a and yet have such a and yet have such a desolation in the thought of executing desolation in the thought of executing desolation in the thought of executing it and that's what I brought to Jerry I it and that's what I brought to Jerry I it and that's what I brought to Jerry I said Jerry she didn't even look at the said Jerry she didn't even look at the said Jerry she didn't even look at the doctor and she didn't need to I I'm doctor and she didn't need to I I'm doctor and she didn't need to I I'm really struggling I'm like you know I'm really struggling I'm like you know I'm really struggling I'm like you know I'm like I just this thing but I like I just this thing but I like I just this thing but I and she had said to me she I believe and she had said to me she I believe and she had said to me she I believe it's God and a couple times every young it's God and a couple times every young it's God and a couple times every young per every young Pastor in the world that per every young Pastor in the world that per every young Pastor in the world that we talked to and like here but how can I we talked to and like here but how can I we talked to and like here but how can I get in on that thing and I'm like I get in on that thing and I'm like I get in on that thing and I'm like I don't want to open a door to this thing don't want to open a door to this thing don't want to open a door to this thing I wants to manage that and uh but she I wants to manage that and uh but she I wants to manage that and uh but she just was able to say so quickly about just was able to say so quickly about just was able to say so quickly about the why you even just that's why you the why you even just that's why you the why you even just that's why you just drop it and I was like just drop it and I was like just drop it and I was like yes and I just but that's generally my yes and I just but that's generally my yes and I just but that's generally my process of discernment Carrie I like I process of discernment Carrie I like I process of discernment Carrie I like I go down the road and then I'm listening go down the road and then I'm listening go down the road and then I'm listening to to why does this feel like what to to why does this feel like what to to why does this feel like what started out so wonderful ends up being started out so wonderful ends up being started out so wonderful ends up being so so so terrible and yeah yeah Pete can you come terrible and yeah yeah Pete can you come terrible and yeah yeah Pete can you come speak here you know you got to get an speak here you know you got to get an speak here you know you got to get an airplane you know my age I've done you airplane you know my age I've done you airplane you know my age I've done you know I don't need to be in front of know I don't need to be in front of know I don't need to be in front of anybody at this point I want others to anybody at this point I want others to anybody at this point I want others to be in front and you can you know really be in front and you can you know really be in front and you can you know really it's I'm much my my time is much better it's I'm much my my time is much better it's I'm much my my time is much better spent and what I gives me great life is

spent and what I gives me great life is spent and what I gives me great life is prayer being with Jesus writing and prayer being with Jesus writing and prayer being with Jesus writing and mentoring like to be on a stage like mentoring like to be on a stage like mentoring like to be on a stage like that's not I I don't just G me life it that's not I I don't just G me life it that's not I I don't just G me life it gives me actually death you know and so gives me actually death you know and so gives me actually death you know and so yeah well I do it occasionally for the yeah well I do it occasionally for the yeah well I do it occasionally for the sake of it'll serve others and the sake of it'll serve others and the sake of it'll serve others and the larger movement of God yeah but not too larger movement of God yeah but not too larger movement of God yeah but not too much but I you know how it is you say much but I you know how it is you say much but I you know how it is you say yes to something and then you start yes to something and then you start yes to something and then you start doing you're like I don't like this but doing you're like I don't like this but doing you're like I don't like this but when you first got the invitation this when you first got the invitation this when you first got the invitation this happened to be before I stop traveling happened to be before I stop traveling happened to be before I stop traveling Pete I'm like yeah sure I'll be glad to Pete I'm like yeah sure I'll be glad to Pete I'm like yeah sure I'll be glad to come my friend yeah Carrie says come on come my friend yeah Carrie says come on come my friend yeah Carrie says come on over can't speak yeah why not we'll have over can't speak yeah why not we'll have over can't speak yeah why not we'll have a dinner we'll chat and then I'm on the a dinner we'll chat and then I'm on the a dinner we'll chat and then I'm on the airplane I'm like I I don't I don't want airplane I'm like I I don't I don't want airplane I'm like I I don't I don't want to do this I I may love Carrie but I to do this I I may love Carrie but I to do this I I may love Carrie but I don't like this and so I got in tune don't like this and so I got in tune don't like this and so I got in tune enough to finally I'm listen I'm enough to finally I'm listen I'm enough to finally I'm listen I'm listening and trusting God's inside of listening and trusting God's inside of listening and trusting God's inside of me and he's speaking and so you me and he's speaking and so you me and he's speaking and so you understand like to try to make this understand like to try to make this understand like to try to make this thing happen it's like resisting the thing happen it's like resisting the thing happen it's like resisting the Holy Spirit and I've done it and so I'm Holy Spirit and I've done it and so I'm Holy Spirit and I've done it and so I'm I'm so deep in listening to God inside I'm so deep in listening to God inside I'm so deep in listening to God inside of me not externally prophetic word what of me not externally prophetic word what of me not externally prophetic word what other people think what's the other people think what's the other people think what's the opportunity and especially what's the opportunity and especially what's the opportunity and especially what's the biggest imp impact and because I have to biggest imp impact and because I have to biggest imp impact and because I have to do it because it's going to save people do it because it's going to save people do it because it's going to save people it's gonna it's like oh you have to do it's gonna it's like oh you have to do it's gonna it's like oh you have to do so many things you know and um all a so many things you know and um all a so many things you know and um all a sudden life's one big sudden life's one big sudden life's one big should and there's not should and there's not should and there's not spaciousness and joy so there's a lot i' spaciousness and joy so there's a lot i' spaciousness and joy so there's a lot i' I've you know I'm smiling and resonating

I've you know I'm smiling and resonating I've you know I'm smiling and resonating with you because this past summer I with you because this past summer I with you because this past summer I spent a lot of time thinking I have a spent a lot of time thinking I have a spent a lot of time thinking I have a big birthday coming up in 2025 so big birthday coming up in 2025 so big birthday coming up in 2025 so Milestone year and I'm not like freaked Milestone year and I'm not like freaked Milestone year and I'm not like freaked out about it not like oh my gosh how did out about it not like oh my gosh how did out about it not like oh my gosh how did how did this happen I know how it how did this happen I know how it how did this happen I know how it happens and I'm feeling very comfortable happens and I'm feeling very comfortable happens and I'm feeling very comfortable with my my age and stage in life but I'm with my my age and stage in life but I'm with my my age and stage in life but I'm also increasingly drawn to the idea of also increasingly drawn to the idea of also increasingly drawn to the idea of doing less not more higher quality lower doing less not more higher quality lower doing less not more higher quality lower quantity um the idea of solitude if not quantity um the idea of solitude if not quantity um the idea of solitude if not seclusion to be able to come back to the seclusion to be able to come back to the seclusion to be able to come back to the public public public year with better ideas not just ideas year with better ideas not just ideas year with better ideas not just ideas yes and really feeling drawn to that as yes and really feeling drawn to that as yes and really feeling drawn to that as a direction for the next decade so you a direction for the next decade so you a direction for the next decade so you know I've even thought we're not acting know I've even thought we're not acting know I've even thought we're not acting on it in 2025 but about dialing back the on it in 2025 but about dialing back the on it in 2025 but about dialing back the podcast fewer interviews deeper podcast fewer interviews deeper podcast fewer interviews deeper interviews uh and something may emerge interviews uh and something may emerge interviews uh and something may emerge on that I don't know I'm just like on that I don't know I'm just like on that I don't know I'm just like really reflecting on what would be and I really reflecting on what would be and I really reflecting on what would be and I feel drawn into it you know the more I feel drawn into it you know the more I feel drawn into it you know the more I pray about it the more I discuss it with pray about it the more I discuss it with pray about it the more I discuss it with a handful of close friends the more a handful of close friends the more a handful of close friends the more appealing that seems and that idea of appealing that seems and that idea of appealing that seems and that idea of unburdening myself you know we grew this unburdening myself you know we grew this unburdening myself you know we grew this team that supports everything I do to team that supports everything I do to team that supports everything I do to about nine people at its peak two years about nine people at its peak two years about nine people at its peak two years ago and that was a lot and now we have ago and that was a lot and now we have ago and that was a lot and now we have we've dialed right back we're down to we've dialed right back we're down to we've dialed right back we're down to four of us plus my wife and we have lots four of us plus my wife and we have lots four of us plus my wife and we have lots of independent contractors on top of of independent contractors on top of of independent contractors on top of that and it's a delight it's a joy it's

that and it's a delight it's a joy it's that and it's a delight it's a joy it's it's fun it is enjoyable and we're able it's fun it is enjoyable and we're able it's fun it is enjoyable and we're able to do as much or more we've had better to do as much or more we've had better to do as much or more we've had better years actually years actually years actually uh on many accounts since we've dialed uh on many accounts since we've dialed uh on many accounts since we've dialed back and and the burden isn't heavy do back and and the burden isn't heavy do back and and the burden isn't heavy do you know what I'm saying you know what I'm saying you know what I'm saying totally you know here's a verse I've totally you know here's a verse I've totally you know here's a verse I've been pondering you know he it comes from been pondering you know he it comes from been pondering you know he it comes from Psalm 1819 it says uh he brought me into Psalm 1819 it says uh he brought me into Psalm 1819 it says uh he brought me into a spacious a spacious a spacious place place place because he rescued me because he because he rescued me because he because he rescued me because he delighted in me wow and so the question delighted in me wow and so the question delighted in me wow and so the question is spaciousness you know what you is spaciousness you know what you is spaciousness you know what you spaciousness out of which I'm I have spaciousness out of which I'm I have spaciousness out of which I'm I have spaciousness with myself spaciousness spaciousness with myself spaciousness spaciousness with myself spaciousness with god spaciousness with other people with god spaciousness with other people with god spaciousness with other people even just relational spatialist even just relational spatialist even just relational spatialist intellectual spatialist where God can intellectual spatialist where God can intellectual spatialist where God can birth birth birth things and to ask yourself the question things and to ask yourself the question things and to ask yourself the question I might it me to ask you this question I might it me to ask you this question I might it me to ask you this question Carri you know it's because it's in Carri you know it's because it's in Carri you know it's because it's in spaciousness we get spaciousness we get spaciousness we get clarity right and this is and so because clarity right and this is and so because clarity right and this is and so because he delighted in me so if I ask you the he delighted in me so if I ask you the he delighted in me so if I ask you the question what if you list for for me question what if you list for for me question what if you list for for me three three three things that God might Delight in you things that God might Delight in you things that God might Delight in you about like he just Delights in you he about like he just Delights in you he about like he just Delights in you he said okay no not not that oh I you know said okay no not not that oh I you know said okay no not not that oh I you know I serve you you know but like just I serve you you know but like just I serve you you know but like just Delights in you like uh think don't have Delights in you like uh think don't have Delights in you like uh think don't have to answer that question but it's a to answer that question but it's a to answer that question but it's a really a great question to think it is a really a great question to think it is a really a great question to think it is a really great question to ask and and I really great question to ask and and I really great question to ask and and I must admit not one that I've asked must admit not one that I've asked must admit not one that I've asked myself very often if ever so he Delights

myself very often if ever so he Delights myself very often if ever so he Delights in me like yeah he I thought to myself in me like yeah he I thought to myself in me like yeah he I thought to myself yeah he Delights how you answer that for yeah he Delights how you answer that for yeah he Delights how you answer that for yourself well it funny I started yourself well it funny I started yourself well it funny I started laughing I said yeah I'm a four in the laughing I said yeah I'm a four in the laughing I said yeah I'm a four in the indag ground which means you know you indag ground which means you know you indag ground which means you know you know I'm like Skyhigh and then 15 know I'm like Skyhigh and then 15 know I'm like Skyhigh and then 15 minutes later I'm down and you know I'm minutes later I'm down and you know I'm minutes later I'm down and you know I'm just you know just the ups and downs of just you know just the ups and downs of just you know just the ups and downs of being a four and I I I said he just being a four and I I I said he just being a four and I I I said he just laughs at me you know he just Smiles laughs at me you know he just Smiles laughs at me you know he just Smiles teach are all excited and and they just teach are all excited and and they just teach are all excited and and they just knows yeah you three hours later yeah knows yeah you three hours later yeah knows yeah you three hours later yeah you now you're all depressed you know you now you're all depressed you know you now you're all depressed you know and the world's coming on he just smiles and the world's coming on he just smiles and the world's coming on he just smiles and laughs this the and laughs this the and laughs this the idiosyncrasies you know of my idiosyncrasies you know of my idiosyncrasies you know of my personality personality personality yeah my mind went to I think he yeah my mind went to I think he yeah my mind went to I think he appreciates my creativity how I like to appreciates my creativity how I like to appreciates my creativity how I like to think about things how I like to ponder think about things how I like to ponder think about things how I like to ponder things small and big yeah I think I things small and big yeah I think I things small and big yeah I think I think he laughs at how stressed out I think he laughs at how stressed out I think he laughs at how stressed out I get about really stupid and pedantic get about really stupid and pedantic get about really stupid and pedantic things from traffic to lining up for things from traffic to lining up for things from traffic to lining up for things to whatever and the other thing things to whatever and the other thing things to whatever and the other thing that came to mind is I think he really that came to mind is I think he really that came to mind is I think he really Delights on the progress we've made in Delights on the progress we've made in Delights on the progress we've made in our our our marriage awesome that's great that's marriage awesome that's great that's marriage awesome that's great that's lovely that's lovely yeah and that that lovely that's lovely yeah and that that lovely that's lovely yeah and that that for me too was like God just Delights for me too was like God just Delights for me too was like God just Delights and not I'm just willing to take risks and not I'm just willing to take risks and not I'm just willing to take risks I'm just like whatever and go outside I'm just like whatever and go outside I'm just like whatever and go outside the box because in some ways this the box because in some ways this the box because in some ways this journey we're talking about about for journey we're talking about about for journey we're talking about about for leaders to leaders to leaders to get retrained in a sense retooled for get retrained in a sense retooled for get retrained in a sense retooled for the 21st century and coming out of some the 21st century and coming out of some the 21st century and coming out of some of the western culture isms in our of the western culture isms in our of the western culture isms in our formation and Leadership that's like formation and Leadership that's like formation and Leadership that's like leaving sure it's quite scary like to

leaving sure it's quite scary like to leaving sure it's quite scary like to use use am I going to lose my magic well use use am I going to lose my magic well use use am I going to lose my magic well hopefully you will lose your magic we hopefully you will lose your magic we hopefully you will lose your magic we don't need your magic but you know don't need your magic but you know don't need your magic but you know you're right it's really you're you're you're right it's really you're you're you're right it's really you're you're out there aren't you you're what are you out there aren't you you're what are you out there aren't you you're what are you holding on to hopefully you're holding holding on to hopefully you're holding holding on to hopefully you're holding on to nothing but Jesus you know and on to nothing but Jesus you know and on to nothing but Jesus you know and you're and it is weak it's a little you you're and it is weak it's a little you you're and it is weak it's a little you don't have control and like you're don't have control and like you're don't have control and like you're following him like we're Jesus followers following him like we're Jesus followers following him like we're Jesus followers and so life's always unfolding and we and so life's always unfolding and we and so life's always unfolding and we and we're open uh I mean I like that to and we're open uh I mean I like that to and we're open uh I mean I like that to me is what it means to be a follower of me is what it means to be a follower of me is what it means to be a follower of Jesus let alone a leader um and and the Jesus let alone a leader um and and the Jesus let alone a leader um and and the best gift we can give our people is to best gift we can give our people is to best gift we can give our people is to actually have spaciousness in our walk actually have spaciousness in our walk actually have spaciousness in our walk with Jesus out of which we lead out of a with Jesus out of which we lead out of a with Jesus out of which we lead out of a cup that overflows but we weren't taught cup that overflows but we weren't taught cup that overflows but we weren't taught to do that like you you weren't I wasn't to do that like you you weren't I wasn't to do that like you you weren't I wasn't taught that I I was taught to make it taught that I I was taught to make it taught that I I was taught to make it happen happen happen and talk to a lot of leaders who would and talk to a lot of leaders who would and talk to a lot of leaders who would say spaciousness feels like a dream or say spaciousness feels like a dream or say spaciousness feels like a dream or something that saved for heaven and they something that saved for heaven and they something that saved for heaven and they leading churches and they have no space leading churches and they have no space leading churches and they have no space in their calendar no Mar margin in their in their calendar no Mar margin in their in their calendar no Mar margin in their personal life no spaciousness really in personal life no spaciousness really in personal life no spaciousness really in anything from time to work out time to anything from time to work out time to anything from time to work out time to tuck their kids into bed time to really tuck their kids into bed time to really tuck their kids into bed time to really prayerfully think through a sermon yes prayerfully think through a sermon yes prayerfully think through a sermon yes we all know how to write sermons but we all know how to write sermons but we all know how to write sermons but let's be honest um sometimes we whip let's be honest um sometimes we whip let's be honest um sometimes we whip them together pretty quickly um for the them together pretty quickly um for the them together pretty quickly um for the leader who feels like they have no and leader who feels like they have no and leader who feels like they have no and and Business Leaders listening who have and Business Leaders listening who have and Business Leaders listening who have no spaciousness in their no spaciousness in their no spaciousness in their business when you take yourself back to business when you take yourself back to business when you take yourself back to that moment where you went from probably

that moment where you went from probably that moment where you went from probably almost no space to where you are now almost no space to where you are now almost no space to where you are now what does a journey into spaciousness what does a journey into spaciousness what does a journey into spaciousness look like because you led for a decade look like because you led for a decade look like because you led for a decade or more at new life with some new found or more at new life with some new found or more at new life with some new found spaciousness no i l i LED for yeah well spaciousness no i l i LED for yeah well spaciousness no i l i LED for yeah well 15 years 17 15 years with spaciousness 15 years 17 15 years with spaciousness 15 years 17 15 years with spaciousness 20 years yeah yeah but again is there 20 years yeah yeah but again is there 20 years yeah yeah but again is there spaciousness of when I've got small spaciousness of when I've got small spaciousness of when I've got small children children pastoring a church is children children pastoring a church is children children pastoring a church is really challenging I mean let's not I really challenging I mean let's not I really challenging I mean let's not I did six years as lead pastor of a church did six years as lead pastor of a church did six years as lead pastor of a church I mean it's I don't care if the church I mean it's I don't care if the church I mean it's I don't care if the church is 50 people leading being a Shepherd is 50 people leading being a Shepherd is 50 people leading being a Shepherd like John 10 Shepherd we actually care like John 10 Shepherd we actually care like John 10 Shepherd we actually care about the Sheep I'm not talking about about the Sheep I'm not talking about about the Sheep I'm not talking about you're pastoring a church but you're you're pastoring a church but you're you're pastoring a church but you're kind of building your own thing out kind of building your own thing out kind of building your own thing out there and you're not really if you're there and you're not really if you're there and you're not really if you're shepherding sheep and doing it like as a shepherding sheep and doing it like as a shepherding sheep and doing it like as a in Jesus name pastoring a local church in Jesus name pastoring a local church in Jesus name pastoring a local church is extremely demanding let's not kid is extremely demanding let's not kid is extremely demanding let's not kid ourselves it's a unique calling it's ourselves it's a unique calling it's ourselves it's a unique calling it's high but I think the way we do it needs high but I think the way we do it needs high but I think the way we do it needs adjustment ments um huge adjustments um adjustment ments um huge adjustments um adjustment ments um huge adjustments um for example so so but the number one let for example so so but the number one let for example so so but the number one let me say number one number one person you me say number one number one person you me say number one number one person you have to lead is yourself and that's the have to lead is yourself and that's the have to lead is yourself and that's the most difficult person to lead so you're most difficult person to lead so you're most difficult person to lead so you're right how do I create a life with right how do I create a life with right how do I create a life with spaciousness so that I'm leading from spaciousness so that I'm leading from spaciousness so that I'm leading from the inside out when Jesus and me outside the inside out when Jesus and me outside the inside out when Jesus and me outside other people not the outside in that is other people not the outside in that is other people not the outside in that is going to require a serious retooling I going to require a serious retooling I going to require a serious retooling I know you can preach everyone can preach know you can preach everyone can preach know you can preach everyone can preach about it I we don't read the books I'm

about it I we don't read the books I'm about it I we don't read the books I'm talking about actually under the talking about actually under the talking about actually under the pressure and you've got to learn how to pressure and you've got to learn how to pressure and you've got to learn how to make how to do discernment personally make how to do discernment personally make how to do discernment personally really well so you can resist all the really well so you can resist all the really well so you can resist all the external pressure that's coming against external pressure that's coming against external pressure that's coming against you I mean it takes a serious walk with you I mean it takes a serious walk with you I mean it takes a serious walk with God so the real first question is I got God so the real first question is I got God so the real first question is I got to get serious my walk with God what do to get serious my walk with God what do to get serious my walk with God what do I need for that well it's therapy I need for that well it's therapy I need for that well it's therapy spiritual directors mentors shifting spiritual directors mentors shifting spiritual directors mentors shifting sabatical so I we can go into great sabatical so I we can go into great sabatical so I we can go into great detail let's not even go there but I detail let's not even go there but I detail let's not even go there but I think the pressure to be a certain kind think the pressure to be a certain kind think the pressure to be a certain kind of person as a lead Pastor or a pastor of person as a lead Pastor or a pastor of person as a lead Pastor or a pastor on staff or even a business person is on staff or even a business person is on staff or even a business person is enormous so externally but the question enormous so externally but the question enormous so externally but the question is can you get to a place in God where is can you get to a place in God where is can you get to a place in God where you're free from the pressure and you're you're free from the pressure and you're you're free from the pressure and you're okay and then you begin to make some okay and then you begin to make some okay and then you begin to make some decisions like I eventually do saying I decisions like I eventually do saying I decisions like I eventually do saying I I don't want to preach this much this is I don't want to preach this much this is I don't want to preach this much this is not because preaching is very taxing and not because preaching is very taxing and not because preaching is very taxing and I said make a break we gotta I got to I said make a break we gotta I got to I said make a break we gotta I got to figure out how to do a preaching team figure out how to do a preaching team figure out how to do a preaching team because this is killing me and taking a because this is killing me and taking a because this is killing me and taking a life out of me and so that was a huge life out of me and so that was a huge life out of me and so that was a huge shift I think many pastors find shift I think many pastors find shift I think many pastors find themselves trapped in I'm preaching 40 themselves trapped in I'm preaching 40 themselves trapped in I'm preaching 40 five weeks a year and it's just a lot five weeks a year and it's just a lot five weeks a year and it's just a lot and just so even the job is such that and just so even the job is such that and just so even the job is such that it's takes a superhuman to do it so how it's takes a superhuman to do it so how it's takes a superhuman to do it so how do you divide it differently it it's do you divide it differently it it's do you divide it differently it it's going to take such courage to change going to take such courage to change going to take such courage to change systems so that people systems so that people systems so that people flourish so let's not kid ourselves the flourish so let's not kid ourselves the flourish so let's not kid ourselves the number one issue is leading for that number one issue is leading for that number one issue is leading for that leaders you're you're the you've got to leaders you're you're the you've got to leaders you're you're the you've got to make some ships as a leader and and make some ships as a leader and and make some ships as a leader and and really they're really they're really they're internal um where

you have the differentiation level to you have the differentiation level to say no we're not going to plant this say no we're not going to plant this say no we're not going to plant this other campus although they want to it'll other campus although they want to it'll other campus although they want to it'll grow the church because what that would grow the church because what that would grow the church because what that would mean I'm out you know just it's gonna mean I'm out you know just it's gonna mean I'm out you know just it's gonna beyond our infrastructure and my beyond our infrastructure and my beyond our infrastructure and my personal life it's just not it's not personal life it's just not it's not personal life it's just not it's not good uh it's not good uh it's not good uh it's not sustainable and we want to live lives sustainable and we want to live lives sustainable and we want to live lives that that that are that are overflowing our cups are that are overflowing our cups are that are overflowing our cups overflowing so I'm I'm I just turned you overflowing so I'm I'm I just turned you overflowing so I'm I'm I just turned you know 68 and I Dr do feel like I'm you know 68 and I Dr do feel like I'm you know 68 and I Dr do feel like I'm you know spacious as now as my kids are know spacious as now as my kids are know spacious as now as my kids are grown see is I'm not leading a local grown see is I'm not leading a local grown see is I'm not leading a local church I'm leading a par church sodality church I'm leading a par church sodality church I'm leading a par church sodality but it's it's not the the I I I think but it's it's not the the I I I think but it's it's not the the I I I think there's a weight of a local church that there's a weight of a local church that there's a weight of a local church that is very unique um to do that because I I is very unique um to do that because I I is very unique um to do that because I I consider the church around the world the consider the church around the world the consider the church around the world the most important uh institution you know most important uh institution you know most important uh institution you know or god-given gift to the world and or god-given gift to the world and or god-given gift to the world and creating a community of and a new family creating a community of and a new family creating a community of and a new family of Jesus that's radical countercultural of Jesus that's radical countercultural of Jesus that's radical countercultural shepher in these people wow wow I don't shepher in these people wow wow I don't shepher in these people wow wow I don't again size is irrelevant but it's again size is irrelevant but it's again size is irrelevant but it's radical and that requires that you're at radical and that requires that you're at radical and that requires that you're at a place of maturity and you're getting a place of maturity and you're getting a place of maturity and you're getting so many resources coming into you so many resources coming into you so many resources coming into you because you need them and you deserve because you need them and you deserve because you need them and you deserve them you need sabatical you need space them you need sabatical you need space them you need sabatical you need space you need rest you need pampering because you need rest you need pampering because you need rest you need pampering because you don't get it and so I think in our you don't get it and so I think in our you don't get it and so I think in our whole model of how we do pastors and whole model of how we do pastors and whole model of how we do pastors and Leadership I I Carrie I just have a long Leadership I I Carrie I just have a long Leadership I I Carrie I just have a long I know you do too I know you do too I know you do too to shift the to shift the to shift the Paradigm so that the folks coming up Paradigm so that the folks coming up Paradigm so that the folks coming up their 20s and their 20s and their 20s and 30s will love it and want to stay in it 30s will love it and want to stay in it 30s will love it and want to stay in it for decades and you can be flourishing I

for decades and you can be flourishing I for decades and you can be flourishing I I consider my 60s and hopefully my 70s I consider my 60s and hopefully my 70s I consider my 60s and hopefully my 70s my best years I'm like I'm having a you my best years I'm like I'm having a you my best years I'm like I'm having a you know it's wonderful but I think I'm know it's wonderful but I think I'm know it's wonderful but I think I'm pacing myself and so that you know I I I pacing myself and so that you know I I I pacing myself and so that you know I I I love Jesus I love his church I I love love Jesus I love his church I I love love Jesus I love his church I I love serving him I I'm happy with him I'm serving him I I'm happy with him I'm serving him I I'm happy with him I'm happy in life but I I think it's been happy in life but I I think it's been happy in life but I I think it's been the fruit of Decades of kind of the fruit of Decades of kind of the fruit of Decades of kind of deepening deepening deepening this journey growing I'm learning I'm this journey growing I'm learning I'm this journey growing I'm learning I'm grow I'm learning a ton and I love grow I'm learning a ton and I love grow I'm learning a ton and I love scripture and yeah it's just all it's scripture and yeah it's just all it's scripture and yeah it's just all it's all been a a great great all been a a great great all been a a great great journey yeah you know when I think about journey yeah you know when I think about journey yeah you know when I think about the next decade ahead from me I am the next decade ahead from me I am the next decade ahead from me I am thinking a lot about the joy in the thinking a lot about the joy in the thinking a lot about the joy in the projects I want to tackle like there are projects I want to tackle like there are projects I want to tackle like there are some really big questions and I think some really big questions and I think some really big questions and I think we'll be on Parallel we'll be on Parallel we'll be on Parallel tracks attacking the same problem from tracks attacking the same problem from tracks attacking the same problem from different perspectives and different different perspectives and different different perspectives and different angles uh I'm really concerned about the angles uh I'm really concerned about the angles uh I'm really concerned about the health of the church and the health of health of the church and the health of health of the church and the health of its leaders and you know you have a its leaders and you know you have a its leaders and you know you have a tremendous contribution in that field I tremendous contribution in that field I tremendous contribution in that field I hope to make some kind of a contribution hope to make some kind of a contribution hope to make some kind of a contribution in that field but it gives me gives me in that field but it gives me gives me in that field but it gives me gives me joy to think about the Deep work ahead joy to think about the Deep work ahead joy to think about the Deep work ahead gives me joy to think about the gives me joy to think about the gives me joy to think about the difference that that it could make in difference that that it could make in difference that that it could make in the lives of others but I want to go the lives of others but I want to go the lives of others but I want to go back to the hurdles that leaders would back to the hurdles that leaders would back to the hurdles that leaders would face because yeah okay you and I you face because yeah okay you and I you face because yeah okay you and I you know I got basically assaulted by know I got basically assaulted by know I got basically assaulted by burnout you had a wakeup call um but burnout you had a wakeup call um but burnout you had a wakeup call um but even after that there are hurdles that even after that there are hurdles that even after that there are hurdles that leaders maybe maybe they don't have a leaders maybe maybe they don't have a leaders maybe maybe they don't have a catalytic moment where their wife says I

catalytic moment where their wife says I catalytic moment where their wife says I quit maybe they don't burn out but quit maybe they don't burn out but quit maybe they don't burn out but they're they're listening and they feel they're they're listening and they feel they're they're listening and they feel trapped what are some of the hurdles trapped what are some of the hurdles trapped what are some of the hurdles that leaders will encounter to try to that leaders will encounter to try to that leaders will encounter to try to make that journey to inside out make that journey to inside out make that journey to inside out leadership I start what's in here and it leadership I start what's in here and it leadership I start what's in here and it flows out of me what what are some of flows out of me what what are some of flows out of me what what are some of the hurdles that they're going to the hurdles that they're going to the hurdles that they're going to encounter along the way well the most encounter along the way well the most encounter along the way well the most obvious hurdle is obvious hurdle is obvious hurdle is uh people aren't going to like uh people aren't going to like uh people aren't going to like this this is this is there there's this this is this is there there's this this is this is there there's nothing in what's what I'm doing right nothing in what's what I'm doing right nothing in what's what I'm doing right now and like people are not going to say now and like people are not going to say now and like people are not going to say oh yeah we want to give you more time to oh yeah we want to give you more time to oh yeah we want to give you more time to go learn and grow and have spaciousness go learn and grow and have spaciousness go learn and grow and have spaciousness and I mean it's just the and I mean it's just the and I mean it's just the demands of around you are enormous and demands of around you are enormous and demands of around you are enormous and they're not going to change you need to they're not going to change you need to they're not going to change you need to change so I think that's the first change so I think that's the first change so I think that's the first hurdle the people say well I could I hurdle the people say well I could I hurdle the people say well I could I could lose my job could lose my job could lose my job like yeah I mean I you're following like yeah I mean I you're following like yeah I mean I you're following Jesus so it's it's okay I mean you're Jesus so it's it's okay I mean you're Jesus so it's it's okay I mean you're open open open you're if they don't want you um to be o you're if they don't want you um to be o you're if they don't want you um to be o overflowing with Jesus and following overflowing with Jesus and following overflowing with Jesus and following Jesus for yourself there's a fundamental Jesus for yourself there's a fundamental Jesus for yourself there's a fundamental problem so hopefully you could your your problem so hopefully you could your your problem so hopefully you could your your leadership is now helping leading them leadership is now helping leading them leadership is now helping leading them to understand you so that you can serve to understand you so that you can serve to understand you so that you can serve them better mean by my thir it's a bad them better mean by my thir it's a bad them better mean by my thir it's a bad never forget there was a woman in church never forget there was a woman in church never forget there was a woman in church and before I went on my third sabatical and before I went on my third sabatical and before I went on my third sabatical mine were three to four months and she mine were three to four months and she mine were three to four months and she said I can't I can't wait till you to said I can't I can't wait till you to said I can't I can't wait till you to leave and she I can't wait I said Gee

leave and she I can't wait I said Gee leave and she I can't wait I said Gee that doesn't sound very nice you know that doesn't sound very nice you know that doesn't sound very nice you know and she said no no I really because and she said no no I really because and she said no no I really because every time you come back it's so blessed every time you come back it's so blessed every time you come back it's so blessed you're a different person you're a you're a different person you're a you're a different person you're a better person so please go and then it better person so please go and then it better person so please go and then it became part of the culture you know of became part of the culture you know of became part of the culture you know of new life for pastoral staff and because new life for pastoral staff and because new life for pastoral staff and because I saw the the fruit of it you got you I saw the the fruit of it you got you I saw the the fruit of it you got you got disengaged your identity being in got disengaged your identity being in got disengaged your identity being in the role of Pastor and so you actually the role of Pastor and so you actually the role of Pastor and so you actually you're you're you're you're freeer to you're you're you're you're freeer to you're you're you're you're freeer to see what God's saying and doing you got see what God's saying and doing you got see what God's saying and doing you got a longer perspective there so and you a longer perspective there so and you a longer perspective there so and you know time to learn and grow and was just know time to learn and grow and was just know time to learn and grow and was just in indispensable so like a pastor leader in indispensable so like a pastor leader in indispensable so like a pastor leader who's just busy all the time I mean who's just busy all the time I mean who's just busy all the time I mean you're not doing anybody any you're not doing anybody any you're not doing anybody any favors uh so again I I here's my I have favors uh so again I I here's my I have favors uh so again I I here's my I have these three little sayings you cannot these three little sayings you cannot these three little sayings you cannot give what you do not possess you can give what you do not possess you can give what you do not possess you can only give what you do possess so that's only give what you do possess so that's only give what you do possess so that's a very important the state you are in is a very important the state you are in is a very important the state you are in is the state you give to others so think the state you give to others so think the state you give to others so think about if you're in turmoil about if you're in turmoil about if you're in turmoil internally or internally or internally or exhausted you can preach on rest and exhausted you can preach on rest and exhausted you can preach on rest and Sabbath but what you're giving is your Sabbath but what you're giving is your Sabbath but what you're giving is your being and then who you are is more being and then who you are is more being and then who you are is more important than what you important than what you important than what you do and these are all those are those do and these are all those are those do and these are all those are those three statements that I'm going to be three statements that I'm going to be three statements that I'm going to be before I do which is what Jesus how before I do which is what Jesus how before I do which is what Jesus how Jesus lived his ministry Jesus lived his ministry Jesus lived his ministry it for it for it for us that I no one can do that for you us that I no one can do that for you us that I no one can do that for you there's no boore that is going to they there's no boore that is going to they there's no boore that is going to they can tell you be before you do but I mean can tell you be before you do but I mean can tell you be before you do but I mean you it takes great courage in a world you it takes great courage in a world you it takes great courage in a world like we have in the 21st century you can

like we have in the 21st century you can like we have in the 21st century you can be instagramming and scrolling on be instagramming and scrolling on be instagramming and scrolling on Instagram half your life I mean building Instagram half your life I mean building Instagram half your life I mean building a great following it's not that hard a great following it's not that hard a great following it's not that hard yeah the dopamine fix the quick fix this yeah the dopamine fix the quick fix this yeah the dopamine fix the quick fix this is this is dying with Jesus and is this is dying with Jesus and is this is dying with Jesus and resurrecting with Jesus this is this is resurrecting with Jesus this is this is resurrecting with Jesus this is this is a different way like we're we're called a different way like we're we're called a different way like we're we're called to something revolutionary here to something revolutionary here to something revolutionary here and our lives are first and that's why and our lives are first and that's why and our lives are first and that's why again car I mean curious what you see is again car I mean curious what you see is again car I mean curious what you see is the greatest challenge in the church I the greatest challenge in the church I the greatest challenge in the church I I've shared with you I'm I'm so curious I've shared with you I'm I'm so curious I've shared with you I'm I'm so curious of your answer I see the greatest of your answer I see the greatest of your answer I see the greatest challenge being the formation of the challenge being the formation of the challenge being the formation of the lead Pastor in their lead Pastor in their lead Pastor in their being and that's why I keep getting as I being and that's why I keep getting as I being and that's why I keep getting as I get older I am more clear and less get older I am more clear and less get older I am more clear and less afraid to say what needs to be said and afraid to say what needs to be said and afraid to say what needs to be said and not about tinkering I'm like who cares I not about tinkering I'm like who cares I not about tinkering I'm like who cares I mean what what who am I trying to mean what what who am I trying to mean what what who am I trying to impress uh and this fundamentalism of impress uh and this fundamentalism of impress uh and this fundamentalism of God's in a box it's just it's God's in a box it's just it's God's in a box it's just it's so so so absurd to hang on to something that is absurd to hang on to something that is absurd to hang on to something that is so clearly not working or and there's so clearly not working or and there's so clearly not working or and there's not life in it you can I'm not trying to not life in it you can I'm not trying to not life in it you can I'm not trying to convince you you can continue but I know convince you you can continue but I know convince you you can continue but I know where the life is and I know where the where the life is and I know where the where the life is and I know where the Young Generation is longing for and uh I Young Generation is longing for and uh I Young Generation is longing for and uh I I just want to go for it and so I'm I just want to go for it and so I'm I just want to go for it and so I'm curious what would you say yeah I think curious what would you say yeah I think curious what would you say yeah I think we're on very similar Pages uh I like we're on very similar Pages uh I like we're on very similar Pages uh I like the idea of it being spiritual the idea of it being spiritual the idea of it being spiritual formation um that we were not formed for formation um that we were not formed for formation um that we were not formed for this we we didn't have the the reservoir this we we didn't have the the reservoir this we we didn't have the the reservoir the habits the disciplines the

the habits the disciplines the the habits the disciplines the practices that would produce fruit practices that would produce fruit practices that would produce fruit healthy fruit in the long term it it healthy fruit in the long term it it healthy fruit in the long term it it produces a lot of what Galatians 5 would produces a lot of what Galatians 5 would produces a lot of what Galatians 5 would say is the fruit of the other Spirit say is the fruit of the other Spirit say is the fruit of the other Spirit division factions anger hatred jealousy division factions anger hatred jealousy division factions anger hatred jealousy fits of Rage I mean you see that in fits of Rage I mean you see that in fits of Rage I mean you see that in leaders who who follow Jesus business leaders who who follow Jesus business leaders who who follow Jesus business and church and it's not good and I and church and it's not good and I and church and it's not good and I definitely have those characteristics I definitely have those characteristics I definitely have those characteristics I am obsessed with the question of why you am obsessed with the question of why you am obsessed with the question of why you know scandals and abuse notwithstanding know scandals and abuse notwithstanding know scandals and abuse notwithstanding If You're Going To Be A Serial abuser If You're Going To Be A Serial abuser If You're Going To Be A Serial abuser and groom people that's a different and groom people that's a different and groom people that's a different category yeah but I'm talking about category yeah but I'm talking about category yeah but I'm talking about well-meaning people who actually love well-meaning people who actually love well-meaning people who actually love Jesus who end up being spit at out by Jesus who end up being spit at out by Jesus who end up being spit at out by the very churches that they lead and or the very churches that they lead and or the very churches that they lead and or start like why why does this keep start like why why does this keep start like why why does this keep happening what is it about our system happening what is it about our system happening what is it about our system what is it about our culture what is it what is it about our culture what is it what is it about our culture what is it about the way we do church that is so about the way we do church that is so about the way we do church that is so fundamentally unhealthy it's rejecting fundamentally unhealthy it's rejecting fundamentally unhealthy it's rejecting the leaders who love it because we just the leaders who love it because we just the leaders who love it because we just can't keep up we we we create this can't keep up we we we create this can't keep up we we we create this treadmill that is exhausting the set of treadmill that is exhausting the set of treadmill that is exhausting the set of expectations that is just expectations that is just expectations that is just so um draining for us as you say right so um draining for us as you say right so um draining for us as you say right like well I could build this thing but like well I could build this thing but like well I could build this thing but it's exhausting and I don't know and it's exhausting and I don't know and it's exhausting and I don't know and it's a heavy yoke and I I feel like I it's a heavy yoke and I I feel like I it's a heavy yoke and I I feel like I feel like the church has become a heavy feel like the church has become a heavy feel like the church has become a heavy Yol it's a good metaphor for a lot of Yol it's a good metaphor for a lot of Yol it's a good metaphor for a lot of people yeah excellent and let me throw people yeah excellent and let me throw people yeah excellent and let me throw this out to you as your on your research

this out to you as your on your research this out to you as your on your research and as you go down your road I'll give and as you go down your road I'll give and as you go down your road I'll give you a pieces I've put together too is you a pieces I've put together too is you a pieces I've put together too is that one is we don't train our that one is we don't train our that one is we don't train our boards we have boards we we were taught boards we have boards we we were taught boards we have boards we we were taught let's get in our our boards people who let's get in our our boards people who let's get in our our boards people who are successful business people or you are successful business people or you are successful business people or you know cor executive because we're trying know cor executive because we're trying know cor executive because we're trying again we're back to a faulty definition again we're back to a faulty definition again we're back to a faulty definition of success and so we're kind of like of success and so we're kind of like of success and so we're kind of like we're measuring it by everything's we're measuring it by everything's we're measuring it by everything's numbers and so that you got to find numbers and so that you got to find numbers and so that you got to find certain kind of board members for that certain kind of board members for that certain kind of board members for that versus board members that know how to versus board members that know how to versus board members that know how to discern and have wisdom and hear God's discern and have wisdom and hear God's discern and have wisdom and hear God's voice right we usually we usually uh voice right we usually we usually uh voice right we usually we usually uh recruit gas pedals not breaks that's recruit gas pedals not breaks that's recruit gas pedals not breaks that's good forers ship so I begun to dabble as good forers ship so I begun to dabble as good forers ship so I begun to dabble as well with a rule of life for board well with a rule of life for board well with a rule of life for board members and and as I I've been working members and and as I I've been working members and and as I I've been working on this emotionally healthy success what on this emotionally healthy success what on this emotionally healthy success what is success for the last few years it'll is success for the last few years it'll is success for the last few years it'll be a book at some point you know and but be a book at some point you know and but be a book at some point you know and but I I it it led me to you've got to I I it it led me to you've got to I I it it led me to you've got to address boards boards need uh a address boards boards need uh a address boards boards need uh a formation plan right because if we're it formation plan right because if we're it formation plan right because if we're it can't just be not this there has to be a can't just be not this there has to be a can't just be not this there has to be a positive right yeah because so the positive right yeah because so the positive right yeah because so the boards because they have when there's a boards because they have when there's a boards because they have when there's a crisis or difficulty they have they have crisis or difficulty they have they have crisis or difficulty they have they have the power they're they're and they're the power they're they're and they're the power they're they're and they're sent by God to do that right to provide sent by God to do that right to provide sent by God to do that right to provide oversight and safety for the larger body oversight and safety for the larger body oversight and safety for the larger body and the lead Pastor yeah so that's a and the lead Pastor yeah so that's a and the lead Pastor yeah so that's a really that's a very people all talk really that's a very people all talk really that's a very people all talk about that very much and then secondly I about that very much and then secondly I about that very much and then secondly I think we do need to up the discipleship think we do need to up the discipleship think we do need to up the discipleship in the church I think we have to do in the church I think we have to do in the church I think we have to do recognize that so we got to hit it on recognize that so we got to hit it on recognize that so we got to hit it on different levels that's why for me I've different levels that's why for me I've different levels that's why for me I've tried to like you know produce a couple

tried to like you know produce a couple tried to like you know produce a couple course courses of high quality for the course courses of high quality for the course courses of high quality for the church most ofly spirituality most ofly church most ofly spirituality most ofly church most ofly spirituality most ofly relationships but the problem is they're relationships but the problem is they're relationships but the problem is they're they're there's serious discipleship they're there's serious discipleship they're there's serious discipleship formation courses and evangelicalism formation courses and evangelicalism formation courses and evangelicalism wants I need something for like 30 wants I need something for like 30 wants I need something for like 30 minutes for our small group you know I minutes for our small group you know I minutes for our small group you know I just need something got to fit in a just need something got to fit in a just need something got to fit in a small group and so it's not really small group and so it's not really small group and so it's not really serious formation it's kind of and and serious formation it's kind of and and serious formation it's kind of and and we want to plug and play kind of thing we want to plug and play kind of thing we want to plug and play kind of thing and so I mean you know we're a top and so I mean you know we're a top and so I mean you know we're a top selling discipleship curriculum for selling discipleship curriculum for selling discipleship curriculum for Harbor Collins but I'm very aware that Harbor Collins but I'm very aware that Harbor Collins but I'm very aware that evangelicalism has a model of evangelicalism has a model of evangelicalism has a model of discipleship in general that is very discipleship in general that is very discipleship in general that is very shallow uh and is structured in a way shallow uh and is structured in a way shallow uh and is structured in a way that will have the maximum number of that will have the maximum number of that will have the maximum number of people and it can scale and grow people and it can scale and grow people and it can scale and grow that depth is not a priority which then that depth is not a priority which then that depth is not a priority which then leads you back to the leader and there leads you back to the leader and there leads you back to the leader and there because a leader has because a leader has because a leader has formation with some depth they then make formation with some depth they then make formation with some depth they then make room for it for everybody else but if room for it for everybody else but if room for it for everybody else but if they them if we don't then the churches they them if we don't then the churches they them if we don't then the churches again we're back to being doomed so we again we're back to being doomed so we again we're back to being doomed so we got to hit the the church we got to hit got to hit the the church we got to hit got to hit the the church we got to hit the board and we got to hit the the board and we got to hit the the board and we got to hit the leadership as well so you got to kind of leadership as well so you got to kind of leadership as well so you got to kind of tack it on all the levels because tack it on all the levels because tack it on all the levels because they're they're interrelated we're they're they're interrelated we're they're they're interrelated we're families but you're we're touching on a families but you're we're touching on a families but you're we're touching on a like I said a massive problem the like I said a massive problem the like I said a massive problem the wonderful thing Carrie is that the wonderful thing Carrie is that the wonderful thing Carrie is that the generation behind me or behind you're generation behind me or behind you're generation behind me or behind you're younger than me but 20s and 30s they're younger than me but 20s and 30s they're younger than me but 20s and 30s they're so hungry and ready to be ecumenical so hungry and ready to be ecumenical so hungry and ready to be ecumenical because they recognize we got to look because they recognize we got to look because they recognize we got to look outside our outside our outside our tradition uh and we got to look globally

tradition uh and we got to look globally tradition uh and we got to look globally what's going on so the Orthodox Church what's going on so the Orthodox Church what's going on so the Orthodox Church the Roman Catholic Church what's the Roman Catholic Church what's the Roman Catholic Church what's happening in Africa Latin America happening in Africa Latin America happening in Africa Latin America Asia uh Oceania you as well as you know Asia uh Oceania you as well as you know Asia uh Oceania you as well as you know it's all important so I'm part of this it's all important so I'm part of this it's all important so I'm part of this large church but North American large church but North American large church but North American Evangelical Pentecostalism is this Evangelical Pentecostalism is this Evangelical Pentecostalism is this narrow shooted in global church history narrow shooted in global church history narrow shooted in global church history that it's only in the light of the big that it's only in the light of the big that it's only in the light of the big hole that you going to say oh there's a hole that you going to say oh there's a hole that you going to say oh there's a lot of gaps here but I can learn from lot of gaps here but I can learn from lot of gaps here but I can learn from the rest of the body of Christ but we the rest of the body of Christ but we the rest of the body of Christ but we generally don't have time for that generally don't have time for that generally don't have time for that either but we only have our none of us either but we only have our none of us either but we only have our none of us have the whole Jesus right we have have the whole Jesus right we have have the whole Jesus right we have atiast from our vantage point so it's atiast from our vantage point so it's atiast from our vantage point so it's that's why it's so critical to be that's why it's so critical to be that's why it's so critical to be connect did across connect did across connect did across Traditions uh and be learning so that's Traditions uh and be learning so that's Traditions uh and be learning so that's very threatening to some people yeah very threatening to some people yeah very threatening to some people yeah yeah what um when you started to undergo yeah what um when you started to undergo yeah what um when you started to undergo your transformation and you were leading your transformation and you were leading your transformation and you were leading New Life New Life New Life Church did you have people push back Church did you have people push back Church did you have people push back people leave people go oh we like we people leave people go oh we like we people leave people go oh we like we like the unhealthy Pete better than the like the unhealthy Pete better than the like the unhealthy Pete better than the healthier Pete um yeah a couple but not healthier Pete um yeah a couple but not healthier Pete um yeah a couple but not many a lot the biggest thing was I no I many a lot the biggest thing was I no I many a lot the biggest thing was I no I think the biggest thing the folks who a think the biggest thing the folks who a think the biggest thing the folks who a few that leave it was primarily because few that leave it was primarily because few that leave it was primarily because I stopped I stopped I stopped lying that was a really big decision I I lying that was a really big decision I I lying that was a really big decision I I uh in other words I wasn't uh in other words I wasn't uh in other words I wasn't afraid to tell people or say to people afraid to tell people or say to people afraid to tell people or say to people like no this is like no this is like no this is unacceptable you're proud you're

unacceptable you're proud you're unacceptable you're proud you're unteachable yeah you're very unteachable yeah you're very unteachable yeah you're very anointed uh and gifted but you're anointed uh and gifted but you're anointed uh and gifted but you're arrogant and you're arrogant and you're arrogant and you're unteachable and you're not allowed to be unteachable and you're not allowed to be unteachable and you're not allowed to be in leadership here anymore like that was in leadership here anymore like that was in leadership here anymore like that was huge for me and so I I made a big switch huge for me and so I I made a big switch huge for me and so I I made a big switch that I wasn't going to I was going to that I wasn't going to I was going to that I wasn't going to I was going to live honestly so again I had to do my live honestly so again I had to do my live honestly so again I had to do my own work about not being afraid of being own work about not being afraid of being own work about not being afraid of being disliked um so I I think for we some of disliked um so I I think for we some of disliked um so I I think for we some of those people did leave uh but that was those people did leave uh but that was those people did leave uh but that was good because we were not the right good because we were not the right good because we were not the right church for them and they they needed to church for them and they they needed to church for them and they they needed to be in power um but no I'd say no be in power um but no I'd say no be in power um but no I'd say no everyone listen my sheep hear my voice I everyone listen my sheep hear my voice I everyone listen my sheep hear my voice I know them and they follow me but I don't know them and they follow me but I don't know them and they follow me but I don't follow a stranger's voice I think you follow a stranger's voice I think you follow a stranger's voice I think you know the first part of John 10 is about know the first part of John 10 is about know the first part of John 10 is about not just Jesus the Good Shepherd about not just Jesus the Good Shepherd about not just Jesus the Good Shepherd about the unders Shepherds the real The Good the unders Shepherds the real The Good the unders Shepherds the real The Good the Pharisees were not good Shepherds the Pharisees were not good Shepherds the Pharisees were not good Shepherds they were another voice they didn't come they were another voice they didn't come they were another voice they didn't come in through the gate but if we're true in through the gate but if we're true in through the gate but if we're true Shepherds you know under Jesus our sheep Shepherds you know under Jesus our sheep Shepherds you know under Jesus our sheep are going to hear they're going to hear are going to hear they're going to hear are going to hear they're going to hear us and say that that's that's Jesus us and say that that's that's Jesus us and say that that's that's Jesus that's God and they're gonna they're that's God and they're gonna they're that's God and they're gonna they're gonna want to stay so I wouldn't but if gonna want to stay so I wouldn't but if gonna want to stay so I wouldn't but if they leave it's okay my wife and I we they leave it's okay my wife and I we they leave it's okay my wife and I we said if everybody leaves it's okay we said if everybody leaves it's okay we said if everybody leaves it's okay we we'll just keep no we did we said the we'll just keep no we did we said the we'll just keep no we did we said the church goes to zero um it's okay and I church goes to zero um it's okay and I church goes to zero um it's okay and I feel like way I that's what it means to feel like way I that's what it means to feel like way I that's what it means to have an open hand I think even I I think have an open hand I think even I I think have an open hand I think even I I think we've had that we've had that we've had that posture always it's like if it it's I'm posture always it's like if it it's I'm posture always it's like if it it's I'm really okay if if that I mean I don't really okay if if that I mean I don't really okay if if that I mean I don't want it to happen but it's okay but if want it to happen but it's okay but if want it to happen but it's okay but if this all go even if emotionally healthy this all go even if emotionally healthy this all go even if emotionally healthy all falls apart overnight all right I

all falls apart overnight all right I all falls apart overnight all right I told I I told I I remember going to our told I I told I I remember going to our told I I told I I remember going to our board and I felt I started a New Life board and I felt I started a New Life board and I felt I started a New Life Fellowship Church I went there for a Fellowship Church I went there for a Fellowship Church I went there for a call from God and I remember as I got on call from God and I remember as I got on call from God and I remember as I got on this journey and I said to the board I this journey and I said to the board I this journey and I said to the board I said you know I want you to understand said you know I want you to understand said you know I want you to understand that you know yeah I feel cold here but that you know yeah I feel cold here but that you know yeah I feel cold here but I but if Jerry at any point says to me I I but if Jerry at any point says to me I I but if Jerry at any point says to me I no longer have the grace to live here in no longer have the grace to live here in no longer have the grace to live here in Queens New York City in this difficult Queens New York City in this difficult Queens New York City in this difficult environment uh for her especially uh now environment uh for her especially uh now environment uh for her especially uh now 40 years was no small task but you know 40 years was no small task but you know 40 years was no small task but you know she came from a nice little suburb you she came from a nice little suburb you she came from a nice little suburb you know quiet uh and but I my marriage I know quiet uh and but I my marriage I know quiet uh and but I my marriage I was leading out of my marriage and so was leading out of my marriage and so was leading out of my marriage and so even just biblically like we're in this even just biblically like we're in this even just biblically like we're in this thing together now she wasn't the Le thing together now she wasn't the Le thing together now she wasn't the Le Pastor I would love for her to been my Pastor I would love for her to been my Pastor I would love for her to been my co-pastor want but she didn't want to be co-pastor want but she didn't want to be co-pastor want but she didn't want to be but we're in it together and if she said but we're in it together and if she said but we're in it together and if she said I I I really need to leave New York then I I I really need to leave New York then I I I really need to leave New York then I would I was gonna I told Bard I'm I would I was gonna I told Bard I'm I would I was gonna I told Bard I'm resigning I'm gonna go not that I don't resigning I'm gonna go not that I don't resigning I'm gonna go not that I don't love you and feel called to do Life love you and feel called to do Life love you and feel called to do Life Fellowship my first calling however is Fellowship my first calling however is Fellowship my first calling however is to Jesus and her and so I would go and to Jesus and her and so I would go and to Jesus and her and so I would go and you know go somewhere else and but that you know go somewhere else and but that you know go somewhere else and but that was a like I was okay with that I was was a like I was okay with that I was was a like I was okay with that I was really and I really meant that I that's really and I really meant that I that's really and I really meant that I that's been my posture ever since even with EH been my posture ever since even with EH been my posture ever since even with EH discipleship I mean Jerry's worse at the discipleship I mean Jerry's worse at the discipleship I mean Jerry's worse at the end it but like if she felt like no I end it but like if she felt like no I end it but like if she felt like no I don't to do this anymore and you know I don't to do this anymore and you know I don't to do this anymore and you know I just feel like um you know and I'd just feel like um you know and I'd just feel like um you know and I'd rather you didn't because I'd like us to rather you didn't because I'd like us to rather you didn't because I'd like us to do this I I would take that super do this I I would take that super do this I I would take that super seriously and would really impact my seriously and would really impact my seriously and would really impact my discernment because we're one flesh so discernment because we're one flesh so discernment because we're one flesh so that you say that was a shift of saying that you say that was a shift of saying that you say that was a shift of saying I'm willing my my I'm willing my my I'm willing my my values Trump everything which is I'm GNA

values Trump everything which is I'm GNA values Trump everything which is I'm GNA do the will of do the will of do the will of Jesus and I made a covenant of out with Jesus and I made a covenant of out with Jesus and I made a covenant of out with Jerry marriage out of which life flows Jerry marriage out of which life flows Jerry marriage out of which life flows so I I'm not going to live like I'm so I I'm not going to live like I'm so I I'm not going to live like I'm single single single and so it just informs a lot of things and so it just informs a lot of things and so it just informs a lot of things and I need a lot of time to be with and I need a lot of time to be with and I need a lot of time to be with God to do anything so that that's God to do anything so that that's God to do anything so that that's another limit I need time for another limit I need time for another limit I need time for spaciousness to be good for anyone it's spaciousness to be good for anyone it's spaciousness to be good for anyone it's good really a lot to reflect on one of good really a lot to reflect on one of good really a lot to reflect on one of the things you and I were talking about the things you and I were talking about the things you and I were talking about it before I hit record and you've hinted it before I hit record and you've hinted it before I hit record and you've hinted at it a few times since you seem to have at it a few times since you seem to have at it a few times since you seem to have gotten quite comfortable more gotten quite comfortable more gotten quite comfortable more comfortable with saying no you know you comfortable with saying no you know you comfortable with saying no you know you were saying I don't do a lot of these were saying I don't do a lot of these were saying I don't do a lot of these podcast interviews it's like I know this podcast interviews it's like I know this podcast interviews it's like I know this took a year to set up and we got it all took a year to set up and we got it all took a year to set up and we got it all set up and thank you for doing it and set up and thank you for doing it and set up and thank you for doing it and that's awesome um you turn down speaking that's awesome um you turn down speaking that's awesome um you turn down speaking invitations you say no to a lot of invitations you say no to a lot of invitations you say no to a lot of things perhaps you've said no to things perhaps you've said no to things perhaps you've said no to building a whole monastic order you know building a whole monastic order you know building a whole monastic order you know structurally I think the the internal structurally I think the the internal structurally I think the the internal NOS are one thing the external NOS kill NOS are one thing the external NOS kill NOS are one thing the external NOS kill a lot of leaders right it's like well I a lot of leaders right it's like well I a lot of leaders right it's like well I could go speak at this conference oh could go speak at this conference oh could go speak at this conference oh they want me to write a book oh I could they want me to write a book oh I could they want me to write a book oh I could do this oh we could launch another do this oh we could launch another do this oh we could launch another campus oh we could do this campus oh we could do this campus oh we could do this how have you become more comfortable how have you become more comfortable how have you become more comfortable with saying no what does that process with saying no what does that process with saying no what does that process look like for you it's a great question look like for you it's a great question look like for you it's a great question you know I'm I'm look it's a really you know I'm I'm look it's a really you know I'm I'm look it's a really great question and great question and great question and uh the again the key I believe is I'm uh the again the key I believe is I'm uh the again the key I believe is I'm listening to God inside of listening to God inside of listening to God inside of me in joy and

me in joy and me in joy and delight and delight and delight and so and you what I'm passionate about and so and you what I'm passionate about and so and you what I'm passionate about and what I I what gives me such a life what I I what gives me such a life what I I what gives me such a life explodes in you know in me so let's just explodes in you know in me so let's just explodes in you know in me so let's just take for example you know I'll just use take for example you know I'll just use take for example you know I'll just use this season and moment of my life like this season and moment of my life like this season and moment of my life like um speaking to large um speaking to large um speaking to large crowds crowds crowds um doing a lot of let's say podcast and um doing a lot of let's say podcast and um doing a lot of let's say podcast and external speaking uh doesn't bring me external speaking uh doesn't bring me external speaking uh doesn't bring me life it just brings but what does bring life it just brings but what does bring life it just brings but what does bring me life is writing thinking pondering me life is writing thinking pondering me life is writing thinking pondering praying like I just feel God's hand I praying like I just feel God's hand I praying like I just feel God's hand I when I have a day of writing and I may when I have a day of writing and I may when I have a day of writing and I may I'm a really slow writer so like I could I'm a really slow writer so like I could I'm a really slow writer so like I could be a day maybe I've had I've written two be a day maybe I've had I've written two be a day maybe I've had I've written two sentences because I'm praying and sentences because I'm praying and sentences because I'm praying and pondering but I I feel at the end of the pondering but I I feel at the end of the pondering but I I feel at the end of the day like I've had a day like I've had a day like I've had a vacation like that's how it feels feels vacation like that's how it feels feels vacation like that's how it feels feels wonderful um the way I lead eh wonderful um the way I lead eh wonderful um the way I lead eh discipleship discipleship discipleship um yes two full-time employees it's very um yes two full-time employees it's very um yes two full-time employees it's very slim it's been it's joyful for me um uh slim it's been it's joyful for me um uh slim it's been it's joyful for me um uh but I think where it needs to go and but I think where it needs to go and but I think where it needs to go and where it's going I I'm not the guy to where it's going I I'm not the guy to where it's going I I'm not the guy to take J goty Jason he's Jason and JW are take J goty Jason he's Jason and JW are take J goty Jason he's Jason and JW are gonna do great they're gonna they're gonna do great they're gonna they're gonna do great they're gonna they're gonna do great but like it's not mine to gonna do great but like it's not mine to gonna do great but like it's not mine to do like I'm like really clear um I write do like I'm like really clear um I write do like I'm like really clear um I write I I want to write books but I I write I I want to write books but I I write I I want to write books but I I write only what burns inside of me and I only what burns inside of me and I only what burns inside of me and I cannot not write it and the publisher I cannot not write it and the publisher I cannot not write it and the publisher I have a very good relationship with have a very good relationship with have a very good relationship with zervan and they know like they'll get zervan and they know like they'll get zervan and they know like they'll get the book when it's done like kind of

the book when it's done like kind of the book when it's done like kind of ry's letters to a young poet like it's ry's letters to a young poet like it's ry's letters to a young poet like it's like I have to do it and like when I like I have to do it and like when I like I have to do it and like when I emotionally healthy leader I had this in emotionally healthy leader I had this in emotionally healthy leader I had this in me I just stepped down from the church me I just stepped down from the church me I just stepped down from the church I've been thinking about it for decades I've been thinking about it for decades I've been thinking about it for decades and no they said we the last thing the and no they said we the last thing the and no they said we the last thing the church needs a leadership book I said church needs a leadership book I said church needs a leadership book I said there's a million leadership books out there's a million leadership books out there's a million leadership books out there I said I know I said but I I I there I said I know I said but I I I there I said I know I said but I I I really I I just have to write it down I really I I just have to write it down I really I I just have to write it down I said even if only two people read it I said even if only two people read it I said even if only two people read it I said I just I have to write this and said I just I have to write this and said I just I have to write this and they really wanted a marriage course and they really wanted a marriage course and they really wanted a marriage course and a book and I said listen I said I I know a book and I said listen I said I I know a book and I said listen I said I I know that I'll be a massive seller I do want that I'll be a massive seller I do want that I'll be a massive seller I do want to do this someday I hope I get to it I to do this someday I hope I get to it I to do this someday I hope I get to it I said but I just I have to write I said said but I just I have to write I said said but I just I have to write I said so not writing for the market I just I'm so not writing for the market I just I'm so not writing for the market I just I'm writing to get it on paper because I writing to get it on paper because I writing to get it on paper because I believe it needs to be done and so I believe it needs to be done and so I believe it needs to be done and so I wrote it in a sense against their wishes wrote it in a sense against their wishes wrote it in a sense against their wishes they they quote did me a favor but they they they quote did me a favor but they they they quote did me a favor but they felt like they like they said there's a felt like they like they said there's a felt like they like they said there's a zillion Christian leadership books out zillion Christian leadership books out zillion Christian leadership books out there so I wrote it and and you know I there so I wrote it and and you know I there so I wrote it and and you know I just and it took me a few years you know just and it took me a few years you know just and it took me a few years you know to actually get it in print so I'm to actually get it in print so I'm to actually get it in print so I'm always frustrating them and slowness always frustrating them and slowness always frustrating them and slowness because it to me it's a prayer document because it to me it's a prayer document because it to me it's a prayer document and I make a long story short you know and I make a long story short you know and I make a long story short you know it's been like it came out 15 I think it's been like it came out 15 I think it's been like it came out 15 I think it's what's 29 years ago I mean it's it's what's 29 years ago I mean it's it's what's 29 years ago I mean it's like they're one of their bestselling like they're one of their bestselling like they're one of their bestselling books on leadership out there I mean for books on leadership out there I mean for books on leadership out there I mean for them and they like they they apologized them and they like they they apologized them and they like they they apologized to me say we were wrong like okay but I to me say we were wrong like okay but I to me say we were wrong like okay but I think it's I think it's just it's like think it's I think it's just it's like think it's I think it's just it's like following the gut of like again free following the gut of like again free following the gut of like again free from Money free from Market free from from Money free from Market free from from Money free from Market free from pressure free from all the experts who pressure free from all the experts who pressure free from all the experts who know better for your life than you do know better for your life than you do know better for your life than you do and it's like that whole Quaker thing of and it's like that whole Quaker thing of and it's like that whole Quaker thing of I'm I'm I'm leading from within I'm

I'm I'm I'm leading from within I'm I'm I'm I'm leading from within I'm actually listening to God inside of me actually listening to God inside of me actually listening to God inside of me the Quakers brought that better than the Quakers brought that better than the Quakers brought that better than anybody to the global Church in terms of anybody to the global Church in terms of anybody to the global Church in terms of that's why they got of slavery in the that's why they got of slavery in the that's why they got of slavery in the early 7 you couldn't be a Quaker in the early 7 you couldn't be a Quaker in the early 7 you couldn't be a Quaker in the early 1700s and have a slave but they early 1700s and have a slave but they early 1700s and have a slave but they were listening to God from inside they were listening to God from inside they were listening to God from inside they weren't looking about oh the Fugitive weren't looking about oh the Fugitive weren't looking about oh the Fugitive Slave Law you you have to report the Slave Law you you have to report the Slave Law you you have to report the slaves they're just like God and they slaves they're just like God and they slaves they're just like God and they they were just free from all that I they were just free from all that I they were just free from all that I think that's the level of freedom I think that's the level of freedom I think that's the level of freedom I think we all got to work to for me think we all got to work to for me think we all got to work to for me that's been what's been so freeing um that's been what's been so freeing um that's been what's been so freeing um and helps me a ton I I hope young and helps me a ton I I hope young and helps me a ton I I hope young leaders can hear this and I don't know leaders can hear this and I don't know leaders can hear this and I don't know that I would would have accessed this that I would would have accessed this that I would would have accessed this well at 32 if I was listening to this well at 32 if I was listening to this well at 32 if I was listening to this conversation from two people who were conversation from two people who were conversation from two people who were older and in a different season of life older and in a different season of life older and in a different season of life but I I got to tell you like when it but I I got to tell you like when it but I I got to tell you like when it comes to writing I definitely have comes to writing I definitely have comes to writing I definitely have another book or two in me that I want to another book or two in me that I want to another book or two in me that I want to get to in the next five to seven years get to in the next five to seven years get to in the next five to seven years but I am taking greater and greater I but I am taking greater and greater I but I am taking greater and greater I don't have a current publishing contract don't have a current publishing contract don't have a current publishing contract and I'm finding that thrilling I want to and I'm finding that thrilling I want to and I'm finding that thrilling I want to be able to write the book on my timeline be able to write the book on my timeline be able to write the book on my timeline yeah see how it develops is it going to yeah see how it develops is it going to yeah see how it develops is it going to take a year is it going to take two take a year is it going to take two take a year is it going to take two years maybe we can turn it into a years maybe we can turn it into a years maybe we can turn it into a project maybe I'll go to a publisher project maybe I'll go to a publisher project maybe I'll go to a publisher Maybe not maybe I'll use an agent Maybe Maybe not maybe I'll use an agent Maybe Maybe not maybe I'll use an agent Maybe not maybe maybe I'll do something else not maybe maybe I'll do something else not maybe maybe I'll do something else with it like there is there's a joy and with it like there is there's a joy and with it like there is there's a joy and a freedom in that because otherwise you a freedom in that because otherwise you a freedom in that because otherwise you sign a two or three book deal and sign a two or three book deal and sign a two or three book deal and suddenly your next book is due and you suddenly your next book is due and you suddenly your next book is due and you know well I don't have anything to say know well I don't have anything to say know well I don't have anything to say it's like well your books doe anyway it's like well your books doe anyway it's like well your books doe anyway right and there's so much freedom in right and there's so much freedom in right and there's so much freedom in that i' I'd love for you to reflect a

that i' I'd love for you to reflect a that i' I'd love for you to reflect a little bit more and and and I think you little bit more and and and I think you little bit more and and and I think you know under this Pete to some extent is know under this Pete to some extent is know under this Pete to some extent is agency right a lot of us feel like we've agency right a lot of us feel like we've agency right a lot of us feel like we've surrendered our agency the church surrendered our agency the church surrendered our agency the church requires the contract requires the the requires the contract requires the the requires the contract requires the the fame and success require the platform fame and success require the platform fame and success require the platform I'm building I'm building I'm building requires does it maybe it doesn't I requires does it maybe it doesn't I requires does it maybe it doesn't I don't know I I that kind of agency is don't know I I that kind of agency is don't know I I that kind of agency is such a joy if you can get it back or such a joy if you can get it back or such a joy if you can get it back or Discover it again we're back to Idols Discover it again we're back to Idols Discover it again we're back to Idols you know I essentially when I stepped you know I essentially when I stepped you know I essentially when I stepped down from New Life and I was 50 I was I down from New Life and I was 50 I was I down from New Life and I was 50 I was I was 56 when I stepped down from New Life was 56 when I stepped down from New Life was 56 when I stepped down from New Life and there wasn't an eh disciple ship and and there wasn't an eh disciple ship and and there wasn't an eh disciple ship and and a mentor wise mentor of mine said to and a mentor wise mentor of mine said to and a mentor wise mentor of mine said to me Pete B this is you better make sure me Pete B this is you better make sure me Pete B this is you better make sure you don't get seduced by money and I'm you don't get seduced by money and I'm you don't get seduced by money and I'm like would be nice to have some money he like would be nice to have some money he like would be nice to have some money he goes church for 26 years you don't goes church for 26 years you don't goes church for 26 years you don't realize like you're gonna have you're realize like you're gonna have you're realize like you're gonna have you're gonna be able to cash in on this thing gonna be able to cash in on this thing gonna be able to cash in on this thing yeah and he goes yeah and he goes yeah and he goes don't he goes don't do it you'll be don't he goes don't do it you'll be don't he goes don't do it you'll be you'll regret it he said you basically you'll regret it he said you basically you'll regret it he said you basically listen to God and do what's meaningful listen to God and do what's meaningful listen to God and do what's meaningful for you what's meaningful work and for you what's meaningful work and for you what's meaningful work and that's the choice you make and so that that's the choice you make and so that that's the choice you make and so that was tremendous advice to me because I was tremendous advice to me because I was tremendous advice to me because I think so often we indirectly make think so often we indirectly make think so often we indirectly make decisions for money I'm not I listen I'm decisions for money I'm not I listen I'm decisions for money I'm not I listen I'm Into You Know save for retirement be a Into You Know save for retirement be a Into You Know save for retirement be a good Financial St you've cast some good Financial St you've cast some good Financial St you've cast some royalty checks along the way royalty checks along the way royalty checks along the way when every Pastor leader should have a when every Pastor leader should have a when every Pastor leader should have a financial advisor have a age but you financial advisor have a age but you financial advisor have a age but you know as Jesus said in Luke

know as Jesus said in Luke know as Jesus said in Luke 12 or to the to the two two sons 12 or to the to the two two sons 12 or to the to the two two sons arguing about the inheritance watch out arguing about the inheritance watch out arguing about the inheritance watch out for greed all kinds of greed it comes in for greed all kinds of greed it comes in for greed all kinds of greed it comes in so many greed is so subtle and I you so many greed is so subtle and I you so many greed is so subtle and I you know we lived among you know in Queens know we lived among you know in Queens know we lived among you know in Queens so I know a lot of poor people that are so I know a lot of poor people that are so I know a lot of poor people that are very greedy you could be rich and be very greedy you could be rich and be very greedy you could be rich and be greedy you can be poor and be greedy greedy you can be poor and be greedy greedy you can be poor and be greedy it's it's a deep thing and indirectly it's it's a deep thing and indirectly it's it's a deep thing and indirectly and almost unconsciously we make and almost unconsciously we make and almost unconsciously we make decisions for decisions for decisions for money big decisions that get us into all money big decisions that get us into all money big decisions that get us into all kinds of troubles just like we make kinds of troubles just like we make kinds of troubles just like we make decision to be to get people's praise decision to be to get people's praise decision to be to get people's praise like gets us in all kinds of trouble so like gets us in all kinds of trouble so like gets us in all kinds of trouble so that's why again we're back to internal that's why again we're back to internal that's why again we're back to internal freedom and so I'm sorry your question I go and so I'm sorry your question I go about agency but think the power of about agency but think the power of about agency but think the power of saying I'm free I don't I'm not beholden saying I'm free I don't I'm not beholden saying I'm free I don't I'm not beholden yeah I think it's the it's the freedom yeah I think it's the it's the freedom yeah I think it's the it's the freedom from It's The from It's The from It's The Temptations It's tra platform I mean Temptations It's tra platform I mean Temptations It's tra platform I mean platform is deadly deadly need for platform is deadly deadly need for platform is deadly deadly need for platform the need for uh Security in platform the need for uh Security in platform the need for uh Security in resources resources resources huge Temptation um and I've got to get huge Temptation um and I've got to get huge Temptation um and I've got to get free from these things so I can actually free from these things so I can actually free from these things so I can actually live the life God's given me God has a live the life God's given me God has a live the life God's given me God has a dream for you listening God's got a dream for you listening God's got a dream for you listening God's got a dream for your life and your role is to dream for your life and your role is to dream for your life and your role is to listen to God in his dream for your life listen to God in his dream for your life listen to God in his dream for your life and offer it back to him at the end like and offer it back to him at the end like and offer it back to him at the end like he listen to God inside of you and the he listen to God inside of you and the he listen to God inside of you and the dream he has for your life there's only dream he has for your life there's only dream he has for your life there's only one unrepeatable you on the earth at

one unrepeatable you on the earth at one unrepeatable you on the earth at this moment of history and we need you this moment of history and we need you this moment of history and we need you to have the courage courage to Follow to have the courage courage to Follow to have the courage courage to Follow that god-given that god-given that god-given dream that's dream that's dream that's guts not live out someone else's guts not live out someone else's guts not live out someone else's expectation of you until you end up expectation of you until you end up expectation of you until you end up living out of a false self that's not living out of a false self that's not living out of a false self that's not really who God made you to be and living really who God made you to be and living really who God made you to be and living out of a false self is heavy it's a out of a false self is heavy it's a out of a false self is heavy it's a weight it's it never it's like Soul's weight it's it never it's like Soul's weight it's it never it's like Soul's armor it just doesn't fit I am experiencing the shedding of fit I am experiencing the shedding of that over the last 20 years and it's and that over the last 20 years and it's and that over the last 20 years and it's and you know what there I wouldn't even say you know what there I wouldn't even say you know what there I wouldn't even say that I didn't feel like anyone else put that I didn't feel like anyone else put that I didn't feel like anyone else put that armor on me I put it on myself but that armor on me I put it on myself but that armor on me I put it on myself but I'm like I like this I'm like I like this I'm like I like this better yes yeah this is better this is better yes yeah this is better this is better yes yeah this is better this is more joyful I wake up every morning and more joyful I wake up every morning and more joyful I wake up every morning and I'm like I get to do this this is this I'm like I get to do this this is this I'm like I get to do this this is this is this is good and there are days that is this is good and there are days that is this is good and there are days that you know hey yeah there is a deadline or you know hey yeah there is a deadline or you know hey yeah there is a deadline or I'm jumping on a plane hopefully I still I'm jumping on a plane hopefully I still I'm jumping on a plane hopefully I still want to do the event you know nine times want to do the event you know nine times want to do the event you know nine times out of 10 I do uh which is great but out of 10 I do uh which is great but out of 10 I do uh which is great but there is there's a freedom there that there is there's a freedom there that there is there's a freedom there that it's funny Jesus spoke of that a lot of it's funny Jesus spoke of that a lot of it's funny Jesus spoke of that a lot of people in leadership just never people in leadership just never people in leadership just never experience experience experience H you you I'd be remiss because a couple H you you I'd be remiss because a couple H you you I'd be remiss because a couple people friends knew I was talking to you people friends knew I was talking to you people friends knew I was talking to you and they said make sure you ask Pete and they said make sure you ask Pete and they said make sure you ask Pete about grieving your losses you've got about grieving your losses you've got about grieving your losses you've got some really rich material my my season

some really rich material my my season some really rich material my my season of burnout came with a month of where I of burnout came with a month of where I of burnout came with a month of where I basically in addition to work if I basically in addition to work if I basically in addition to work if I wasn't at the office I was crying or wasn't at the office I was crying or wasn't at the office I was crying or sleeping and it was just grie letting go sleeping and it was just grie letting go sleeping and it was just grie letting go of a lifetime of loss and grieving what of a lifetime of loss and grieving what of a lifetime of loss and grieving what had happened and grieving what walked had happened and grieving what walked had happened and grieving what walked away and now I'm I'm much better at away and now I'm I'm much better at away and now I'm I'm much better at grieving in real time uh I lost a a grieving in real time uh I lost a a grieving in real time uh I lost a a colleague slri last week and it really colleague slri last week and it really colleague slri last week and it really hit me this one really really hit me and hit me this one really really hit me and hit me this one really really hit me and you know I just took a bike ride in the you know I just took a bike ride in the you know I just took a bike ride in the middle of the afternoon went to bed a middle of the afternoon went to bed a middle of the afternoon went to bed a little early stayed in bed a little bit little early stayed in bed a little bit little early stayed in bed a little bit longer the next day and just kind of you longer the next day and just kind of you longer the next day and just kind of you know processed it over the course of a know processed it over the course of a know processed it over the course of a few days whereas before I would have few days whereas before I would have few days whereas before I would have been like oh that's too bad you know been like oh that's too bad you know been like oh that's too bad you know back to work um can you talk about back to work um can you talk about back to work um can you talk about grieving losses what it is and why it grieving losses what it is and why it grieving losses what it is and why it matters matters matters Wow Let's listen our culture let's just Wow Let's listen our culture let's just Wow Let's listen our culture let's just say Western culture doesn't we don't do say Western culture doesn't we don't do say Western culture doesn't we don't do grief and loss we don't we do medication grief and loss we don't we do medication grief and loss we don't we do medication we do we numb our elves we get busy we do we numb our elves we get busy we do we numb our elves we get busy something uh some way to medicate the something uh some way to medicate the something uh some way to medicate the pain and not feel too deeply and we go pain and not feel too deeply and we go pain and not feel too deeply and we go into a kind of into a kind of into a kind of agnosticism uh and so again we're back agnosticism uh and so again we're back agnosticism uh and so again we're back to bad theology so so noism like a to bad theology so so noism like a to bad theology so so noism like a disembodied Faith yeah like I we're into disembodied Faith yeah like I we're into disembodied Faith yeah like I we're into Spirit everything's good and you know Spirit everything's good and you know Spirit everything's good and you know praise the Lord but like we don't engage praise the Lord but like we don't engage praise the Lord but like we don't engage with our spirituality is not very earthy with our spirituality is not very earthy with our spirituality is not very earthy yet biblical spirituality is very earthy yet biblical spirituality is very earthy yet biblical spirituality is very earthy and so we got two-thirds of the Psalms and so we got two-thirds of the Psalms and so we got two-thirds of the Psalms are laments and a whole book called are laments and a whole book called are laments and a whole book called Lamentations and you can't read the Lamentations and you can't read the Lamentations and you can't read the Bible and the history of God's people

Bible and the history of God's people Bible and the history of God's people without seeing that grief embracing without seeing that grief embracing without seeing that grief embracing grief and loss in God and there there's grief and loss in God and there there's grief and loss in God and there there's a way to do it biblically is critical a way to do it biblically is critical a way to do it biblically is critical and foundational to maturity so I I like and foundational to maturity so I I like and foundational to maturity so I I like to look at grief and losses and it's to look at grief and losses and it's to look at grief and losses and it's kind kind I've kind of grown into this kind kind I've kind of grown into this kind kind I've kind of grown into this um it's such a fundamental part of life um it's such a fundamental part of life um it's such a fundamental part of life because life is all about loss I mean because life is all about loss I mean because life is all about loss I mean think about it I mean in every sense of think about it I mean in every sense of think about it I mean in every sense of the word every season you even just as the word every season you even just as the word every season you even just as you chronologically grow older you're you chronologically grow older you're you chronologically grow older you're grieving the SE one season's over you're grieving the SE one season's over you're grieving the SE one season's over you're entering a new one so there's an ending entering a new one so there's an ending entering a new one so there's an ending there's a kind of a waiting on godness there's a kind of a waiting on godness there's a kind of a waiting on godness in between then there's letting the old in between then there's letting the old in between then there's letting the old birth something new let God bring the birth something new let God bring the birth something new let God bring the new the resurrection so it's this ending new the resurrection so it's this ending new the resurrection so it's this ending it's over it's not coming back I'm like it's over it's not coming back I'm like it's over it's not coming back I'm like I'm in this confusing disorientation in I'm in this confusing disorientation in I'm in this confusing disorientation in between I don't know what's happening between I don't know what's happening between I don't know what's happening the old is gone the new hasn't come yet the old is gone the new hasn't come yet the old is gone the new hasn't come yet but yet I'm waiting on God that let him but yet I'm waiting on God that let him but yet I'm waiting on God that let him Burch something new but it's a very Burch something new but it's a very Burch something new but it's a very painful difficult process to do on all painful difficult process to do on all painful difficult process to do on all levels so I like to look at it as and I levels so I like to look at it as and I levels so I like to look at it as and I came into this later um so you have to came into this later um so you have to came into this later um so you have to learn to feel again because feeling learn to feel again because feeling learn to feel again because feeling sadness and anger and fear we we don't sadness and anger and fear we we don't sadness and anger and fear we we don't do well with that so that's I need space do well with that so that's I need space do well with that so that's I need space for that and I'm doing it before the for that and I'm doing it before the for that and I'm doing it before the Lord and it opens up all kinds of Lord and it opens up all kinds of Lord and it opens up all kinds of scripture but I see The Grieving of of scripture but I see The Grieving of of scripture but I see The Grieving of of of without grief and loss and be able to of without grief and loss and be able to of without grief and loss and be able to enter into it God's way we are doomed to enter into it God's way we are doomed to enter into it God's way we are doomed to immaturity um because there's no other immaturity um because there's no other immaturity um because there's no other way to grow up in Jesus just and again way to grow up in Jesus just and again way to grow up in Jesus just and again American North American Western

American North American Western American North American Western Evangelical Pentecostalism which is my Evangelical Pentecostalism which is my Evangelical Pentecostalism which is my tradition we just we don't do this we do tradition we just we don't do this we do tradition we just we don't do this we do up and to the right bigger better faster up and to the right bigger better faster up and to the right bigger better faster and we see losses as interruptions why and we see losses as interruptions why and we see losses as interruptions why why is this happening to me this this why is this happening to me this this why is this happening to me this this does not fit so I want to get rid of it does not fit so I want to get rid of it does not fit so I want to get rid of it as quickly as possible get over it move as quickly as possible get over it move as quickly as possible get over it move on um you know power want to power on um you know power want to power on um you know power want to power through it uh and that's just not through it uh and that's just not through it uh and that's just not Jesus's way uh he didn't power through Jesus's way uh he didn't power through Jesus's way uh he didn't power through Gethsemane he didn't power through the Gethsemane he didn't power through the Gethsemane he didn't power through the cross um Jeremiah didn't power through cross um Jeremiah didn't power through cross um Jeremiah didn't power through the Exile neither did David uh in the the Exile neither did David uh in the the Exile neither did David uh in the Psalms that's not the biblical that's a Psalms that's not the biblical that's a Psalms that's not the biblical that's a that's a that's a western thing so this that's a that's a western thing so this that's a that's a western thing so this again we're back to revamping my again we're back to revamping my again we're back to revamping my spirituality where oh this is God like spirituality where oh this is God like spirituality where oh this is God like God's coming to me in this so I like to God's coming to me in this so I like to God's coming to me in this so I like to look at it as like I I have a uh my look at it as like I I have a uh my look at it as like I I have a uh my son-in-law is a a Master son-in-law is a a Master son-in-law is a a Master Mason and have Master electricians Mason and have Master electricians Mason and have Master electricians Master Carpenters you know in the trades Master Carpenters you know in the trades Master Carpenters you know in the trades and think of it you start out as an and think of it you start out as an and think of it you start out as an apprentice apprentice apprentice for a couple of years and you become a for a couple of years and you become a for a couple of years and you become a journey man or a journey woman for like journey man or a journey woman for like journey man or a journey woman for like five six seven years and you're five six seven years and you're five six seven years and you're practicing and then at some point you practicing and then at some point you practicing and then at some point you become a master Carpenter he's a master become a master Carpenter he's a master become a master Carpenter he's a master me master electrician well in the same me master electrician well in the same me master electrician well in the same way the art grief and loss is an art and way the art grief and loss is an art and way the art grief and loss is an art and so we've got to get used to the textures so we've got to get used to the textures so we've got to get used to the textures and the tools and so we start out as we and the tools and so we start out as we and the tools and so we start out as we begin to feel we're like apprentices oh begin to feel we're like apprentices oh begin to feel we're like apprentices oh yeah yeah I'm feeling and I'm starting yeah yeah I'm feeling and I'm starting yeah yeah I'm feeling and I'm starting to journal my feelings I'm sad I'm angry to journal my feelings I'm sad I'm angry to journal my feelings I'm sad I'm angry I want to kill somebody and then you I want to kill somebody and then you I want to kill somebody and then you kind of grow into a journey man or kind of grow into a journey man or kind of grow into a journey man or Journey woman and over years and years Journey woman and over years and years Journey woman and over years and years then you become a master like you're

then you become a master like you're then you become a master like you're really able to enter to to feel like really able to enter to to feel like really able to enter to to feel like you're a father mother of the faith like you're a father mother of the faith like you're a father mother of the faith like you're a mar you can you can just feel you're a mar you can you can just feel you're a mar you can you can just feel people's grief you can you can you can people's grief you can you can you can people's grief you can you can you can be a father mother to be a father mother to be a father mother to them you've been around this you're a them you've been around this you're a them you've been around this you're a master musician violinist you're you're master musician violinist you're you're master musician violinist you're you're a master a master a master griver and you can enter anybody's grief griver and you can enter anybody's grief griver and you can enter anybody's grief because you've entered your own uh because you've entered your own uh because you've entered your own uh that's where we want to get to like can that's where we want to get to like can that's where we want to get to like can you grow into a mother father of the you grow into a mother father of the you grow into a mother father of the faith without grief and loss no no no so faith without grief and loss no no no so faith without grief and loss no no no so it's is it it's is it it's is it important yeah it's like it's it's important yeah it's like it's it's important yeah it's like it's it's foundational uh to maturing as a foundational uh to maturing as a foundational uh to maturing as a leader I if that help does that make leader I if that help does that make leader I if that help does that make sense that really helps yeah would you sense that really helps yeah would you sense that really helps yeah would you know I don't know whether you'd consider know I don't know whether you'd consider know I don't know whether you'd consider yourself a master griver but I don't yourself a master griver but I don't yourself a master griver but I don't know either yeah okay so we're somewhere know either yeah okay so we're somewhere know either yeah okay so we're somewhere between Journey people I mean you know I between Journey people I mean you know I between Journey people I mean you know I I I don't Master but I know my own grief I I don't Master but I know my own grief I I don't Master but I know my own grief and I can I remember a woman came to my and I can I remember a woman came to my and I can I remember a woman came to my house a number of years ago and she'd house a number of years ago and she'd house a number of years ago and she'd been raped in daylight not far from our been raped in daylight not far from our been raped in daylight not far from our house and uh her marriage actually house and uh her marriage actually house and uh her marriage actually disintegrated over it it was just disintegrated over it it was just disintegrated over it it was just horrific and uh she was in our horrific and uh she was in our horrific and uh she was in our church and Terry and I could go there like we and Terry and I could go there like we we could we could enter her pain not we could we could enter her pain not we could we could enter her pain not that we've ever experienced that we've ever experienced that we've ever experienced that but we've entered our own and we realize once we'd enter ours own and we realize once we'd enter ours fully we could enter anybody's and I

fully we could enter anybody's and I fully we could enter anybody's and I think that's the great key to it and think that's the great key to it and think that's the great key to it and that's why Christians I don't believe that's why Christians I don't believe that's why Christians I don't believe the church will be known as judgmental the church will be known as judgmental the church will be known as judgmental once we get grief and loss because you once we get grief and loss because you once we get grief and loss because you all that comes out of you is all that comes out of you is all that comes out of you is compassion compassion flows out of your compassion compassion flows out of your compassion compassion flows out of your own grief and loss and if you haven't own grief and loss and if you haven't own grief and loss and if you haven't grieved I mean that's a very extreme sad grieved I mean that's a very extreme sad grieved I mean that's a very extreme sad situation but you can you can run into situation but you can you can run into situation but you can you can run into somebody who got a cancer diagnosis somebody who got a cancer diagnosis somebody who got a cancer diagnosis which again is sad or which again is sad or which again is sad or traumatic and just kind of overp traumatic and just kind of overp traumatic and just kind of overp spiritualize it or I'll pray for you or spiritualize it or I'll pray for you or spiritualize it or I'll pray for you or you know let it bounce off you Etc but you know let it bounce off you Etc but you know let it bounce off you Etc but to profoundly enter someone's grief to I to profoundly enter someone's grief to I to profoundly enter someone's grief to I I had somebody who's not involved with I had somebody who's not involved with I had somebody who's not involved with the church but um grew up in the church the church but um grew up in the church the church but um grew up in the church and he was coming alongside someone and he was coming alongside someone and he was coming alongside someone who's going through a really painful who's going through a really painful who's going through a really painful period in their relationship and um it period in their relationship and um it period in their relationship and um it was really moving he told me he said you was really moving he told me he said you was really moving he told me he said you know I'm not at church right now but I know I'm not at church right now but I know I'm not at church right now but I just told the people in the community just told the people in the community just told the people in the community because they were amazed that I could because they were amazed that I could because they were amazed that I could just come alongside and empathize with just come alongside and empathize with just come alongside and empathize with people going through a difficult time people going through a difficult time people going through a difficult time but he said look this is what the church but he said look this is what the church but he said look this is what the church does this is what Christians do we don't does this is what Christians do we don't does this is what Christians do we don't just discard people we embrace them and just discard people we embrace them and just discard people we embrace them and I I found that so moving but I think you I I found that so moving but I think you I I found that so moving but I think you have to be comfortable with your own have to be comfortable with your own have to be comfortable with your own pain to be able to embrace someone pain to be able to embrace someone pain to be able to embrace someone else's is that what you're saying else's is that what you're saying else's is that what you're saying absolutely yes you have to be present I absolutely yes you have to be present I absolutely yes you have to be present I like the word present with your own pain like the word present with your own pain like the word present with your own pain to be present with other people's I to be present with other people's I to be present with other people's I think presence is love right I can be think presence is love right I can be think presence is love right I can be present with someone I I was we don't

present with someone I I was we don't present with someone I I was we don't get trained in that either get trained in that either get trained in that either presence and so that's why again we're presence and so that's why again we're presence and so that's why again we're back to there's a lot of retooling back to there's a lot of retooling back to there's a lot of retooling needed in our formation so we can bring needed in our formation so we can bring needed in our formation so we can bring it to our people and then bring into the it to our people and then bring into the it to our people and then bring into the world and um but yeah grief and loss is world and um but yeah grief and loss is world and um but yeah grief and loss is is is pretty Central just like limits is is pretty Central just like limits is is pretty Central just like limits and uh making love and uh making love and uh making love the criteria for maturity we redefining the criteria for maturity we redefining the criteria for maturity we redefining maturity so yeah there's some it's a maturity so yeah there's some it's a maturity so yeah there's some it's a very key thing so tell your friends very key thing so tell your friends very key thing so tell your friends thank you for reminding you to thank you for reminding you to thank you for reminding you to ask ask ask um so we covered a lot and I imagine um so we covered a lot and I imagine um so we covered a lot and I imagine that people are resonating pretty deeply that people are resonating pretty deeply that people are resonating pretty deeply but they're feeling I have no space I'm but they're feeling I have no space I'm but they're feeling I have no space I'm trapped I want to start this journey or trapped I want to start this journey or trapped I want to start this journey or I've tried it before and I got to step I've tried it before and I got to step I've tried it before and I got to step one and then it all fell apart and I'm one and then it all fell apart and I'm one and then it all fell apart and I'm back in the rat back in the rat back in the rat race advice practical things people race advice practical things people race advice practical things people changes people can make something they changes people can make something they changes people can make something they can do that points them in the right can do that points them in the right can do that points them in the right direction will obviously link to all of direction will obviously link to all of direction will obviously link to all of your resources Etc but if if someone's your resources Etc but if if someone's your resources Etc but if if someone's like you know if you're like you know like you know if you're like you know like you know if you're like you know what here's just try the shift maybe two what here's just try the shift maybe two what here's just try the shift maybe two or three things it'll start you down the or three things it'll start you down the or three things it'll start you down the right path what would you right path what would you right path what would you suggest yeah uh well it's really good suggest yeah uh well it's really good suggest yeah uh well it's really good uh yeah boy let me think about that for uh yeah boy let me think about that for uh yeah boy let me think about that for a second here take your time smart it's a second here take your time smart it's a second here take your time smart it's a big question it is I would a big question it is I would a big question it is I would say you need I I would start with

say you need I I would start with say you need I I would start with Sabbath and what would it look like for you to and what would it look like for you to take a 24-hour period once a week to take a 24-hour period once a week to take a 24-hour period once a week to actually stop and rest and Delight I actually stop and rest and Delight I actually stop and rest and Delight I mean learn about Sabbath you go our mean learn about Sabbath you go our mean learn about Sabbath you go our resour we got some great resource on our resour we got some great resource on our resour we got some great resource on our website and I'll check it out at website and I'll check it out at website and I'll check it out at emotionally healthy.org but I learn emotionally healthy.org but I learn emotionally healthy.org but I learn there's a lot of good stuff written out there's a lot of good stuff written out there's a lot of good stuff written out there but that that's number one but I there but that that's number one but I there but that that's number one but I think you probably need either you need think you probably need either you need think you probably need either you need a mentor a spiritual director somebody a mentor a spiritual director somebody a mentor a spiritual director somebody externally from your system who can externally from your system who can externally from your system who can begin to coach you out like I don't know begin to coach you out like I don't know begin to coach you out like I don't know what it will be for you depends on what what it will be for you depends on what what it will be for you depends on what where you're at what your life season is where you're at what your life season is where you're at what your life season is uh for me it was beginning with a uh for me it was beginning with a uh for me it was beginning with a therapist actually you know and that was therapist actually you know and that was therapist actually you know and that was helpful some about a spiritual director helpful some about a spiritual director helpful some about a spiritual director it's been a mentor sometimes it's all it's been a mentor sometimes it's all it's been a mentor sometimes it's all the above but you've got to start the above but you've got to start the above but you've got to start resourcing yourself what do I need what resourcing yourself what do I need what resourcing yourself what do I need what do I so if you're saying I want do I so if you're saying I want do I so if you're saying I want spaciousness so you're saying look at spaciousness so you're saying look at spaciousness so you're saying look at your life saying I am just so I got so your life saying I am just so I got so your life saying I am just so I got so much coming at me my schedule so full so much coming at me my schedule so full so much coming at me my schedule so full so you probably need someone again Mentor you probably need someone again Mentor you probably need someone again Mentor director coach someone who's got who's director coach someone who's got who's director coach someone who's got who's who's ahead of who's ahead of who's ahead of you and I say whatever it takes to get you and I say whatever it takes to get you and I say whatever it takes to get to them whatever it costs it doesn't to them whatever it costs it doesn't to them whatever it costs it doesn't matter this is the most important thing matter this is the most important thing matter this is the most important thing you can do if you love your people and you can do if you love your people and you can do if you love your people and if you love the world world because you if you love the world world because you if you love the world world because you can't give to the world something you can't give to the world something you can't give to the world something you don't have so therefore whatever it don't have so therefore whatever it don't have so therefore whatever it takes your first job I Your Role is is

takes your first job I Your Role is is takes your first job I Your Role is is to mature as a disciple of Jesus which to mature as a disciple of Jesus which to mature as a disciple of Jesus which means getting free from being swamped means getting free from being swamped means getting free from being swamped because basically if you're and I know I because basically if you're and I know I because basically if you're and I know I know the feeling very well happens in a know the feeling very well happens in a know the feeling very well happens in a nanoc in our culture um you're going to nanoc in our culture um you're going to nanoc in our culture um you're going to need help to get out of that quick sand need help to get out of that quick sand need help to get out of that quick sand because Hey listen I read a verse because Hey listen I read a verse because Hey listen I read a verse earlier he brought me into a spacious earlier he brought me into a spacious earlier he brought me into a spacious place place he rescued me because he place place he rescued me because he place place he rescued me because he Delights in me Psalm 18 well he's got a Delights in me Psalm 18 well he's got a Delights in me Psalm 18 well he's got a spacious place for you but I you I can't spacious place for you but I you I can't spacious place for you but I you I can't get there I know that's why we have the get there I know that's why we have the get there I know that's why we have the body of Christ and there's so many body of Christ and there's so many body of Christ and there's so many resources I'm sure Carrie's got some as resources I'm sure Carrie's got some as resources I'm sure Carrie's got some as well uh I would encourage you to well uh I would encourage you to well uh I would encourage you to obviously access some of ours but you obviously access some of ours but you obviously access some of ours but you got to get started on this journey and got to get started on this journey and got to get started on this journey and say it's you're you're it's life or say it's you're you're it's life or say it's you're you're it's life or death this isn't a death this isn't a death this isn't a small small small um a small thing just think do you want um a small thing just think do you want um a small thing just think do you want people people that live like you like people people that live like you like people people that live like you like like Paul says imitate me as I imitate like Paul says imitate me as I imitate like Paul says imitate me as I imitate Christ what I I remember preaching Christ what I I remember preaching Christ what I I remember preaching saying I know I'm not experiencing a lot saying I know I'm not experiencing a lot saying I know I'm not experiencing a lot of Joy but I'm preaching about you of Joy but I'm preaching about you of Joy but I'm preaching about you having Joy like my life's out of control having Joy like my life's out of control having Joy like my life's out of control I'm so busy but I want you to have rest I'm so busy but I want you to have rest I'm so busy but I want you to have rest in Jesus like you in Jesus like you in Jesus like you know it doesn't work it it it you might know it doesn't work it it it you might know it doesn't work it it it you might just don't skip the sermon it's not just don't skip the sermon it's not just don't skip the sermon it's not worth it because it's your being that worth it because it's your being that worth it because it's your being that matters when you stand up and uh that is matters when you stand up and uh that is matters when you stand up and uh that is your sermon that is your preaching your sermon that is your preaching your sermon that is your preaching preparation it's getting the help you preparation it's getting the help you preparation it's getting the help you need to begin to get free and I like need to begin to get free and I like need to begin to get free and I like Sabbath I start with silence as key and Sabbath I start with silence as key and Sabbath I start with silence as key and you want to get into some new networks you want to get into some new networks you want to get into some new networks that can help slow you down ah yeah that can help slow you down ah yeah that can help slow you down ah yeah because probably your friends right now

because probably your friends right now because probably your friends right now are part of that existing system that are part of that existing system that are part of that existing system that perpetuates the status quo or they don't perpetuates the status quo or they don't perpetuates the status quo or they don't know how and so you gotta and and know know how and so you gotta and and know know how and so you gotta and and know honestly it's not just emotionally honestly it's not just emotionally honestly it's not just emotionally healthy discipleship there are other healthy discipleship there are other healthy discipleship there are other good Ministries that are helping people good Ministries that are helping people good Ministries that are helping people helping pastors and leaders right now helping pastors and leaders right now helping pastors and leaders right now because it's a huge problem right and because it's a huge problem right and because it's a huge problem right and it's not just a retreat it's not just a it's not just a retreat it's not just a it's not just a retreat it's not just a sabatical because this has to be 24/7 sabatical because this has to be 24/7 sabatical because this has to be 24/7 365 day way of life not you know there's 365 day way of life not you know there's 365 day way of life not you know there's one other practical thing I think I want one other practical thing I think I want one other practical thing I think I want to touch on before we wrap up Pete and I to touch on before we wrap up Pete and I to touch on before we wrap up Pete and I don't know the answer to this question don't know the answer to this question don't know the answer to this question when I was it was funny this uh this when I was it was funny this uh this when I was it was funny this uh this came up very recently in my family I was came up very recently in my family I was came up very recently in my family I was talking to my younger son I think old talking to my younger son I think old talking to my younger son I think old one of my sons and long story one of my sons and long story one of my sons and long story short um we'd had a really bad sleep one short um we'd had a really bad sleep one short um we'd had a really bad sleep one night night night and you know I just didn't sleep and you know I just didn't sleep and you know I just didn't sleep particularly well there were a couple of particularly well there were a couple of particularly well there were a couple of things going on and he was around and I things going on and he was around and I things going on and he was around and I just said you know I think this is how I just said you know I think this is how I just said you know I think this is how I used to live I think I think before I used to live I think I think before I used to live I think I think before I burned out I was just tired all the time burned out I was just tired all the time burned out I was just tired all the time I remember I couldn't even drive more I remember I couldn't even drive more I remember I couldn't even drive more than an hour without having to tap than an hour without having to tap than an hour without having to tap someone else and go I need to rest can someone else and go I need to rest can someone else and go I need to rest can you drive cuz you know you're just you drive cuz you know you're just you drive cuz you know you're just sitting there quietly the fatigue would sitting there quietly the fatigue would sitting there quietly the fatigue would hit me I'd fall asleep reading a book hit me I'd fall asleep reading a book hit me I'd fall asleep reading a book I'd fall asleep watching a movie that I'd fall asleep watching a movie that I'd fall asleep watching a movie that kind of thing yeah it was my younger son kind of thing yeah it was my younger son kind of thing yeah it was my younger son and uh we're up to 1:00 in the morning and uh we're up to 1:00 in the morning and uh we're up to 1:00 in the morning with friends in the backyard they had with friends in the backyard they had with friends in the backyard they had the friends over and they're like this the friends over and they're like this the friends over and they're like this is the guy who used to fall asleep at 7 is the guy who used to fall asleep at 7 is the guy who used to fall asleep at 7 o'clock and I'm like yeah I know but I'm o'clock and I'm like yeah I know but I'm o'clock and I'm like yeah I know but I'm so much better rested so when you said

so much better rested so when you said so much better rested so when you said take a Sabbath my mind went to get a few take a Sabbath my mind went to get a few take a Sabbath my mind went to get a few nights of really good sleep to start nights of really good sleep to start nights of really good sleep to start because you can't even think properly because you can't even think properly because you can't even think properly like they show like you know the like they show like you know the like they show like you know the difference between having a couple of difference between having a couple of difference between having a couple of drinks and being chronically sleep drinks and being chronically sleep drinks and being chronically sleep fatigued is about the same on your fatigued is about the same on your fatigued is about the same on your cognitive performance that's true of cognitive performance that's true of cognitive performance that's true of operating Motor Vehicles it's true of operating Motor Vehicles it's true of operating Motor Vehicles it's true of trying to do your daily work have your trying to do your daily work have your trying to do your daily work have your sleep rhythms changed since you've sleep rhythms changed since you've sleep rhythms changed since you've gotten gotten gotten healthier um maybe they haven't I I I no healthier um maybe they haven't I I I no healthier um maybe they haven't I I I no they I mean I I think I I obviously I'm they I mean I I think I I obviously I'm they I mean I I think I I obviously I'm not I'm sleeping more I just I'm not as not I'm sleeping more I just I'm not as not I'm sleeping more I just I'm not as driven I'm not waking up so I gotta get driven I'm not waking up so I gotta get driven I'm not waking up so I gotta get up I gotta get this thing moving so I'm up I gotta get this thing moving so I'm up I gotta get this thing moving so I'm not living like that anymore and so that not living like that anymore and so that not living like that anymore and so that yeah it's been so long I would say no yeah it's been so long I would say no yeah it's been so long I would say no not not really but if something's not not really but if something's not not really but if something's bothering me like I had something bother bothering me like I had something bother bothering me like I had something bother me with me with me with a person I got up early four o'clock I a person I got up early four o'clock I a person I got up early four o'clock I just needed time I needed like hours to just needed time I needed like hours to just needed time I needed like hours to just how how am I going to address this just how how am I going to address this just how how am I going to address this and you just processed it I went down I and you just processed it I went down I and you just processed it I went down I went down it was a uh was a staff issue went down it was a uh was a staff issue went down it was a uh was a staff issue and I went to my basement and uh I had and I went to my basement and uh I had and I went to my basement and uh I had some silence for 20 30 minutes I did a some silence for 20 30 minutes I did a some silence for 20 30 minutes I did a little little little scripture uh and then I uh I began to scripture uh and then I uh I began to scripture uh and then I uh I began to really lift this up before God and take really lift this up before God and take really lift this up before God and take some notes and then some notes and then some notes and then I I I took me three hours I just I I I I took me three hours I just I I I I took me three hours I just I rewrote this person's job description I rewrote this person's job description I rewrote this person's job description I said God what are you asking me to do said God what are you asking me to do said God what are you asking me to do and took leadership differentiation like and took leadership differentiation like and took leadership differentiation like I heard God pretty clearly I know what I I heard God pretty clearly I know what I I heard God pretty clearly I know what I need to do talked to my board need to do talked to my board need to do talked to my board chairperson later that day I said this chairperson later that day I said this chairperson later that day I said this is what I've done I'm G to have a

is what I've done I'm G to have a is what I've done I'm G to have a conversation this person but it came I conversation this person but it came I conversation this person but it came I got up early I got at four o'clock in got up early I got at four o'clock in got up early I got at four o'clock in the morning and I know I don't get at the morning and I know I don't get at the morning and I know I don't get at four o'clock in the morning but I just four o'clock in the morning but I just four o'clock in the morning but I just responded I said Okay God you're in this responded I said Okay God you're in this responded I said Okay God you're in this and it was bothering me and because it and it was bothering me and because it and it was bothering me and because it happened late in the day this happened late in the day this happened late in the day this conversation I said this is not good and conversation I said this is not good and conversation I said this is not good and and uh so I'm I'm I'm okay doing that and uh so I'm I'm I'm okay doing that and uh so I'm I'm I'm okay doing that but I don't obviously I I can't remember but I don't obviously I I can't remember but I don't obviously I I can't remember it's been I can't remember I got 4:00 in it's been I can't remember I got 4:00 in it's been I can't remember I got 4:00 in the morning to deal with an issue but the morning to deal with an issue but the morning to deal with an issue but I'm okay I didn't feel bad about it or I'm okay I didn't feel bad about it or I'm okay I didn't feel bad about it or guilty I was like okay I took a nap it guilty I was like okay I took a nap it guilty I was like okay I took a nap it was all it was all good so again I I was all it was all good so again I I was all it was all good so again I I think the key is I'm not legalistic think the key is I'm not legalistic think the key is I'm not legalistic about anything I'm just I'm I'm I'm Flex about anything I'm just I'm I'm I'm Flex about anything I'm just I'm I'm I'm Flex there's flexibility but I have a there's flexibility but I have a there's flexibility but I have a structure I've got a rule of life I've structure I've got a rule of life I've structure I've got a rule of life I've got a way I'm operating and just you got a way I'm operating and just you got a way I'm operating and just you know I resource myself I've been know I resource myself I've been know I resource myself I've been resourcing resourcing resourcing myself since I started this journey in myself since I started this journey in myself since I started this journey in my you know my you know my you know 30 years ago and so I've got a mentor 30 years ago and so I've got a mentor 30 years ago and so I've got a mentor who's six years older than me l a large who's six years older than me l a large who's six years older than me l a large organization you know and I I call him organization you know and I I call him organization you know and I I call him he's he's great uh and uh he was a he's he's great uh and uh he was a he's he's great uh and uh he was a professor he was a PhD he was a pastor professor he was a PhD he was a pastor professor he was a PhD he was a pastor he's done a lot and uh it's been great he's done a lot and uh it's been great he's done a lot and uh it's been great and I've got a spiritual director I meet and I've got a spiritual director I meet and I've got a spiritual director I meet with once a month I do you know it's with once a month I do you know it's with once a month I do you know it's been great I so I you know I've got some been great I so I you know I've got some been great I so I you know I've got some peers so I'm always resourcing myself peers so I'm always resourcing myself peers so I'm always resourcing myself I'm I'm I'm growing I've got to learn I'm I'm I'm growing I've got to learn I'm I'm I'm growing I've got to learn I've never been here I've never been here I've never been here before nor have I before nor have I before nor have I I'm curious and I'm on always be a I'm curious and I'm on always be a I'm curious and I'm on always be a learner that's great Pete this is this learner that's great Pete this is this learner that's great Pete this is this has been great is there anything we has been great is there anything we has been great is there anything we haven't touched on that you want to haven't touched on that you want to haven't touched on that you want to touch on I want to give an invitation I touch on I want to give an invitation I touch on I want to give an invitation I I think you know uh I think for those of I think you know uh I think for those of I think you know uh I think for those of you who are leading and pastoring you're you who are leading and pastoring you're you who are leading and pastoring you're in leadership in a church or pastoring a in leadership in a church or pastoring a in leadership in a church or pastoring a church I we came to a place realizing

church I we came to a place realizing church I we came to a place realizing you know we we we had produced and we we you know we we we had produced and we we you know we we we had produced and we we developed over years this curriculum developed over years this curriculum developed over years this curriculum emotionally healthy discipleship course emotionally healthy discipleship course emotionally healthy discipleship course for churches we realize if pastors for churches we realize if pastors for churches we realize if pastors aren't living it like it's just a aren't living it like it's just a aren't living it like it's just a program and the church does not need program and the church does not need program and the church does not need program program church needs life so he program program church needs life so he program program church needs life so he developed a school of emotionally developed a school of emotionally developed a school of emotionally healthy leadership a two semester school healthy leadership a two semester school healthy leadership a two semester school for pastors and leaders and we and um for pastors and leaders and we and um for pastors and leaders and we and um it's all around the world and uh it's it's all around the world and uh it's it's all around the world and uh it's limited and who can get into it but it's limited and who can get into it but it's limited and who can get into it but it's a serious opportunity for you to a serious opportunity for you to a serious opportunity for you to experience formations not strategies experience formations not strategies experience formations not strategies about your life and about what does it about your life and about what does it about your life and about what does it mean to build a culture that's mean to build a culture that's mean to build a culture that's completely transformed by Jesus because completely transformed by Jesus because completely transformed by Jesus because you've been completely transformed so you've been completely transformed so you've been completely transformed so it's making the applications of your it's making the applications of your it's making the applications of your inner life's GNA impact how you approach inner life's GNA impact how you approach inner life's GNA impact how you approach a planning and strategy a planning and strategy a planning and strategy meeting how you build a team how you run meeting how you build a team how you run meeting how you build a team how you run a team meeting like but it all flows out a team meeting like but it all flows out a team meeting like but it all flows out of the inner life so it's all about your of the inner life so it's all about your of the inner life so it's all about your inner life and I would encourage you inner life and I would encourage you inner life and I would encourage you whether you're in wherever you're living whether you're in wherever you're living whether you're in wherever you're living in the world um it's not all on our in the world um it's not all on our in the world um it's not all on our website yet but we've been doing it it's website yet but we've been doing it it's website yet but we've been doing it it's out there it's called the school of out there it's called the school of out there it's called the school of motion the leadership and I would check motion the leadership and I would check motion the leadership and I would check it out on our website and you have to it out on our website and you have to it out on our website and you have to apply it's a serious it's all through apply it's a serious it's all through apply it's a serious it's all through Zoom different time zones Latin Zoom different time zones Latin Zoom different time zones Latin America you know Europe UK Australia New America you know Europe UK Australia New America you know Europe UK Australia New Zealand those areas there'll be in Zealand those areas there'll be in Zealand those areas there'll be in Africa next year just Africa next year just Africa next year just that because I I we I don't know another that because I I we I don't know another that because I I we I don't know another way to even get started as a pastor way to even get started as a pastor way to even get started as a pastor leader unless you're led into something leader unless you're led into something leader unless you're led into something somewhat structured for a period of time somewhat structured for a period of time somewhat structured for a period of time to introduce you to oh this whole new to introduce you to oh this whole new to introduce you to oh this whole new way of living

way of living way of living life and it's it's it's like entering a life and it's it's it's like entering a life and it's it's it's like entering a new universe new language new paradigms new universe new language new paradigms new universe new language new paradigms it's only a start but it's a big start it's only a start but it's a big start it's only a start but it's a big start because I don't see how you can get give because I don't see how you can get give because I don't see how you can get give what you don't have and car you know you what you don't have and car you know you what you don't have and car you know you can read a book you get a lot of good can read a book you get a lot of good can read a book you get a lot of good ideas but the question is how do I ideas but the question is how do I ideas but the question is how do I experience it and actually live this experience it and actually live this experience it and actually live this thing out where can make a thing out where can make a thing out where can make a dent Pete this has been a joy want to dent Pete this has been a joy want to dent Pete this has been a joy want to thank you so much thank you for all you thank you so much thank you for all you thank you so much thank you for all you do thank you for who you are and thank do thank you for who you are and thank do thank you for who you are and thank you for so generously sharing with you for so generously sharing with you for so generously sharing with people and thank you Carrie I thank you people and thank you Carrie I thank you people and thank you Carrie I thank you for everything you do and uh I for everything you do and uh I for everything you do and uh I enjoy uh your podcast when I listen to enjoy uh your podcast when I listen to enjoy uh your podcast when I listen to it I list it all the time but listened it I list it all the time but listened it I list it all the time but listened to it I enjoy what your writing I enjoy to it I enjoy what your writing I enjoy to it I enjoy what your writing I enjoy honestly your ministry is very important honestly your ministry is very important honestly your ministry is very important to the global Church you're bringing so to the global Church you're bringing so to the global Church you're bringing so many things that are so significant I many things that are so significant I many things that are so significant I know they're outside of my calling but know they're outside of my calling but know they're outside of my calling but so important for leaders so thank you so important for leaders so thank you so important for leaders so thank you very much and it's an honor to be with very much and it's an honor to be with very much and it's an honor to be with you well thank you it's fun having a you well thank you it's fun having a you well thank you it's fun having a conversation with you great having a conversation with you great having a conversation with you great having a conversation with you Pete really conversation with you Pete really conversation with you Pete really appreciate you taking the time today and appreciate you taking the time today and appreciate you taking the time today and all things Pete are found at what all things Pete are found at what all things Pete are found at what website would you direct people website would you direct people website would you direct people emotionally healthy.org emotionally healthy.org emotionally healthy.org there you go lots of free resources there you go lots of free resources there you go lots of free resources there check that out and check out the there check that out and check out the there check that out and check out the leadership school as well thank you