Is Downsizing the Church the Only Way to Save It?

if we could remove the burden of I have if we could remove the burden of I have to be bigger year after year welcome to to be bigger year after year welcome to to be bigger year after year welcome to the car newoff leadership podcast on the car newoff leadership podcast on the car newoff leadership podcast on YouTube hey I'm so glad you joined us YouTube hey I'm so glad you joined us YouTube hey I'm so glad you joined us and if it's your first time here make and if it's your first time here make and if it's your first time here make sure you leave not only a comment but sure you leave not only a comment but sure you leave not only a comment but subscribe to the channel you'll never subscribe to the channel you'll never subscribe to the channel you'll never miss a thing well I sit down with Carl miss a thing well I sit down with Carl miss a thing well I sit down with Carl Vaders today we talk about desizing the Vaders today we talk about desizing the Vaders today we talk about desizing the church you know the vast majority of church you know the vast majority of church you know the vast majority of churches are 200 people or less often churches are 200 people or less often churches are 200 people or less often much less uh but we talk a lot about much less uh but we talk a lot about much less uh but we talk a lot about church growth what are the upsides the church growth what are the upsides the church growth what are the upsides the downsides and what are the challenges of downsides and what are the challenges of downsides and what are the challenges of leading a smaller church we talk about leading a smaller church we talk about leading a smaller church we talk about that plus we talk about the challenge of that plus we talk about the challenge of that plus we talk about the challenge of growth for those of us who lead larger growth for those of us who lead larger growth for those of us who lead larger churches today's episode is brought to churches today's episode is brought to churches today's episode is brought to you by compassion you know for over 70 you by compassion you know for over 70 you by compassion you know for over 70 years Compassion International has work years Compassion International has work years Compassion International has work tirelessly to help others know their tirelessly to help others know their tirelessly to help others know their identity in Christ through the local identity in Christ through the local identity in Christ through the local church they do everything through the church they do everything through the church they do everything through the local church my church is partnered with local church my church is partnered with local church my church is partnered with compassion for over a decade and I want compassion for over a decade and I want compassion for over a decade and I want to encourage your church to get involved to encourage your church to get involved to encourage your church to get involved find out more but simply going to find out more but simply going to find out more but simply going to compassion.com compassion.com compassion.com carry and getting in front of people who carry and getting in front of people who carry and getting in front of people who need your message most can seem like a need your message most can seem like a need your message most can seem like a mystery like really hard right glue plus mystery like really hard right glue plus mystery like really hard right glue plus automates direct mail to 50 new families automates direct mail to 50 new families automates direct mail to 50 new families to your community every month and to your community every month and to your community every month and connects you with up to seven people who connects you with up to seven people who connects you with up to seven people who are looking for answers your church has are looking for answers your church has are looking for answers your church has curious go to glue. us/ connection and curious go to glue. us/ connection and curious go to glue. us/ connection and use the code carry save20 for an use the code carry save20 for an use the code carry save20 for an additional 20% off your subscription and additional 20% off your subscription and additional 20% off your subscription and now my conversation with Carl Vaders so now my conversation with Carl Vaders so now my conversation with Carl Vaders so Carl good to have you back on the Carl good to have you back on the Carl good to have you back on the podcast podcast podcast welcome thank you Carrie it's yeah it's

welcome thank you Carrie it's yeah it's welcome thank you Carrie it's yeah it's it's been a while when when I was on it's been a while when when I was on it's been a while when when I was on first it was back in the you you only first it was back in the you you only first it was back in the you you only had about 30 or so episodes out at what had about 30 or so episodes out at what had about 30 or so episodes out at what the 600s or something yeah H we're the 600s or something yeah H we're the 600s or something yeah H we're pushing 700 I don't know it's crazy in a pushing 700 I don't know it's crazy in a pushing 700 I don't know it's crazy in a decade a decade isn't that nuts like decade a decade isn't that nuts like decade a decade isn't that nuts like yeah a lot of a lot of Joy a lot of yeah a lot of a lot of Joy a lot of yeah a lot of a lot of Joy a lot of gratitude and who knew we'd be doing gratitude and who knew we'd be doing gratitude and who knew we'd be doing this 10 years and counting so it's good this 10 years and counting so it's good this 10 years and counting so it's good we're going to talk about about um we're going to talk about about um we're going to talk about about um Church size or rather desizing the Church size or rather desizing the Church size or rather desizing the church but I'd love to trace out because church but I'd love to trace out because church but I'd love to trace out because that was a long time ago we had you on that was a long time ago we had you on that was a long time ago we had you on the podcast we've gained a few listeners the podcast we've gained a few listeners the podcast we've gained a few listeners since then um when did this become an since then um when did this become an since then um when did this become an issue for you because basically that's issue for you because basically that's issue for you because basically that's what you do now you help small what you do now you help small what you do now you help small normalized churches um but when did when normalized churches um but when did when normalized churches um but when did when did Church size first come on your radar did Church size first come on your radar did Church size first come on your radar as an issue as an issue as an issue Carl yeah I'm um I've you know been in Carl yeah I'm um I've you know been in Carl yeah I'm um I've you know been in pastoral Ministry for 40 years I've been pastoral Ministry for 40 years I've been pastoral Ministry for 40 years I've been 31 years at my current church here in 31 years at my current church here in 31 years at my current church here in Orange County California and uh when I Orange County California and uh when I Orange County California and uh when I came here the church growth movement was came here the church growth movement was came here the church growth movement was really um booming and I came I came to a really um booming and I came I came to a really um booming and I came I came to a county where Saddleback Church and Cal county where Saddleback Church and Cal county where Saddleback Church and Cal the original Calvary Chapel the original the original Calvary Chapel the original the original Calvary Chapel the original Vineyard Mariners Church Church on the Vineyard Mariners Church Church on the Vineyard Mariners Church Church on the way all these all these big churches and way all these all these big churches and way all these all these big churches and Fuller Church growth Institute itself is Fuller Church growth Institute itself is Fuller Church growth Institute itself is just over the Border in LA county from just over the Border in LA county from just over the Border in LA county from me so I come into this place not just me so I come into this place not just me so I come into this place not just where big things happen but where big where big things happen but where big where big things happen but where big movements have begun I mean they just movements have begun I mean they just movements have begun I mean they just made a hit move about a church two miles made a hit move about a church two miles made a hit move about a church two miles from my church right the original from my church right the original from my church right the original Calvary Chapel right yeah so yeah so I

Calvary Chapel right yeah so yeah so I Calvary Chapel right yeah so yeah so I looked around and went well this is the looked around and went well this is the looked around and went well this is the place we're GNA make this this happen place we're GNA make this this happen place we're GNA make this this happen here and we came to a church that was here and we came to a church that was here and we came to a church that was really hurting that had been through really hurting that had been through really hurting that had been through five Pastors in the previous 10 years five Pastors in the previous 10 years five Pastors in the previous 10 years there were 20 people on a typical Sunday there were 20 people on a typical Sunday there were 20 people on a typical Sunday a dozen on some Sundays 30 on a big a dozen on some Sundays 30 on a big a dozen on some Sundays 30 on a big Sunday um and the Lord helped us to Sunday um and the Lord helped us to Sunday um and the Lord helped us to really turn that ship around it took really turn that ship around it took really turn that ship around it took some time but it turned around and then some time but it turned around and then some time but it turned around and then as we kept applying the church growth as we kept applying the church growth as we kept applying the church growth principles uh they they were helpful but principles uh they they were helpful but principles uh they they were helpful but they didn't produce the numerical they didn't produce the numerical they didn't produce the numerical increase that I expected and that they increase that I expected and that they increase that I expected and that they seemed to promise and long story short seemed to promise and long story short seemed to promise and long story short it got to the point where I got so it got to the point where I got so it got to the point where I got so frustrated I walked away from the church frustrated I walked away from the church frustrated I walked away from the church for 40 days in real frustration and real for 40 days in real frustration and real for 40 days in real frustration and real discouragement thinking I'm just blowing discouragement thinking I'm just blowing discouragement thinking I'm just blowing it here I don't know what I'm doing it here I don't know what I'm doing it here I don't know what I'm doing maybe I'm not even called to Ministry maybe I'm not even called to Ministry maybe I'm not even called to Ministry and during that season I went to a and during that season I went to a and during that season I went to a pastoral counselor and talk through some pastoral counselor and talk through some pastoral counselor and talk through some of my frustrations and he really helped of my frustrations and he really helped of my frustrations and he really helped me um begin to recalibrate me um begin to recalibrate me um begin to recalibrate uh how to redefine success in Ministry uh how to redefine success in Ministry uh how to redefine success in Ministry and and the sentence that just turned and and the sentence that just turned and and the sentence that just turned everything around for me is he said Carl everything around for me is he said Carl everything around for me is he said Carl for your own spiritual and emotional for your own spiritual and emotional for your own spiritual and emotional health you have to figure out how to health you have to figure out how to health you have to figure out how to define success in Ministry without define success in Ministry without define success in Ministry without numbers attached to numbers attached to numbers attached to it and I said I I I don't even know what it and I said I I I don't even know what it and I said I I I don't even know what that means and he answered me honestly that means and he answered me honestly that means and he answered me honestly he said yeah I can't tell you what it he said yeah I can't tell you what it he said yeah I can't tell you what it means either but if we don't figure it means either but if we don't figure it means either but if we don't figure it out it sounds like it's GNA take out it sounds like it's GNA take out it sounds like it's GNA take somebody out of ministry who should be somebody out of ministry who should be somebody out of ministry who should be in Ministry and it's going to continue in Ministry and it's going to continue in Ministry and it's going to continue to hurt your church so from that point to hurt your church so from that point to hurt your church so from that point on I been trying to figure out how do we on I been trying to figure out how do we on I been trying to figure out how do we define success in Ministry without define success in Ministry without define success in Ministry without numbers attached to it is that even numbers attached to it is that even numbers attached to it is that even possible is it possible for a church to possible is it possible for a church to possible is it possible for a church to be healthy and stay small and since then

be healthy and stay small and since then be healthy and stay small and since then I've been finding all the resources that I've been finding all the resources that I've been finding all the resources that I can that are small Church specific and I can that are small Church specific and I can that are small Church specific and trying to encourage discouraged pastors trying to encourage discouraged pastors trying to encourage discouraged pastors like I was and to bring small Church like I was and to bring small Church like I was and to bring small Church specific resources to people who may not specific resources to people who may not specific resources to people who may not know how to find them on their own if I know how to find them on their own if I know how to find them on their own if I remember correctly Carl you had a period remember correctly Carl you had a period remember correctly Carl you had a period I think of time where the church really I think of time where the church really I think of time where the church really did grow beyond the average siiz Church did grow beyond the average siiz Church did grow beyond the average siiz Church to to what was it was it 400 or 600 or to to what was it was it 400 or 600 or to to what was it was it 400 or 600 or something like that yeah we we grew something like that yeah we we grew something like that yeah we we grew steadily for 15 years from the 20 steadily for 15 years from the 20 steadily for 15 years from the 20 Originals to about 200 and then in a Originals to about 200 and then in a Originals to about 200 and then in a two-year span We Grew From 200 to 400 so two-year span We Grew From 200 to 400 so two-year span We Grew From 200 to 400 so it really blossomed and then in less it really blossomed and then in less it really blossomed and then in less than a year it was down to under 100 and than a year it was down to under 100 and than a year it was down to under 100 and there hadn't been a scandal and there there hadn't been a scandal and there there hadn't been a scandal and there hadn't been a split and that was when I hadn't been a split and that was when I hadn't been a split and that was when I left for counseling I I couldn't figure left for counseling I I couldn't figure left for counseling I I couldn't figure out what was going on so part of what I out what was going on so part of what I out what was going on so part of what I did in redefining success in Ministry did in redefining success in Ministry did in redefining success in Ministry was I tried to figure out what had was I tried to figure out what had was I tried to figure out what had happened and there were a handful of happened and there were a handful of happened and there were a handful of principles I discovered principle number principles I discovered principle number principles I discovered principle number one was I'm wired to be a small Church one was I'm wired to be a small Church one was I'm wired to be a small Church guy and not to be a big church guy so guy and not to be a big church guy so guy and not to be a big church guy so when I made the adjustments when we got when I made the adjustments when we got when I made the adjustments when we got over the 200 barrier and I made the over the 200 barrier and I made the over the 200 barrier and I made the adjustments to go from Shephard to adjustments to go from Shephard to adjustments to go from Shephard to Rancher and from Pastor to manager I was Rancher and from Pastor to manager I was Rancher and from Pastor to manager I was miserable because I'm more a Hands-On miserable because I'm more a Hands-On miserable because I'm more a Hands-On Pastor it doesn't work for me I I I I Pastor it doesn't work for me I I I I Pastor it doesn't work for me I I I I took those things on but I was miserable took those things on but I was miserable took those things on but I was miserable and a and a church was being pastored by and a and a church was being pastored by and a and a church was being pastored by a pastor who was miserable and people a pastor who was miserable and people a pastor who was miserable and people could sense that something was was off could sense that something was was off could sense that something was was off and we looked around afterwards and and we looked around afterwards and and we looked around afterwards and realized none almost none of it was realized none almost none of it was realized none almost none of it was conversion growth we were the cool conversion growth we were the cool conversion growth we were the cool church for a while and we weren't seeing

church for a while and we weren't seeing church for a while and we weren't seeing people come to Christ we were people come to Christ we were people come to Christ we were entertaining bored entertaining bored entertaining bored Christians and then when another church Christians and then when another church Christians and then when another church near us got cooler they left and went near us got cooler they left and went near us got cooler they left and went there and took some of our folks with us there and took some of our folks with us there and took some of our folks with us so some of it was on me that I was not so some of it was on me that I was not so some of it was on me that I was not in the right place that I should be and in the right place that I should be and in the right place that I should be and I needed to re-understand my gift ing I needed to re-understand my gift ing I needed to re-understand my gift ing some of it was that we weren't doing the some of it was that we weren't doing the some of it was that we weren't doing the kind of discipleship and the kinds of um kind of discipleship and the kinds of um kind of discipleship and the kinds of um Outreach to reach new people we were Outreach to reach new people we were Outreach to reach new people we were just transferring churches people from just transferring churches people from just transferring churches people from One Church to the other and it was fun One Church to the other and it was fun One Church to the other and it was fun to be the cool church for a while but to be the cool church for a while but to be the cool church for a while but I'm glad now that it didn't work because I'm glad now that it didn't work because I'm glad now that it didn't work because I think if we had maintained growth in I think if we had maintained growth in I think if we had maintained growth in the place that I was emotionally and the place that I was emotionally and the place that I was emotionally and spiritually and by simply attracting spiritually and by simply attracting spiritually and by simply attracting bored Christians to the place that was bored Christians to the place that was bored Christians to the place that was cool we could have built a large church cool we could have built a large church cool we could have built a large church but it would have been very uh shallow but it would have been very uh shallow but it would have been very uh shallow and I would have broken myself in the and I would have broken myself in the and I would have broken myself in the process I don't think we've talked about process I don't think we've talked about process I don't think we've talked about this and if we did forgive me but I went this and if we did forgive me but I went this and if we did forgive me but I went to Seminary with a guy we used to play to Seminary with a guy we used to play to Seminary with a guy we used to play golf every Monday cuz at that time golf every Monday cuz at that time golf every Monday cuz at that time clergy got in free it was cool it was a clergy got in free it was cool it was a clergy got in free it was cool it was a great course and I remember Andrew great course and I remember Andrew great course and I remember Andrew turned to me one day and he just said turned to me one day and he just said turned to me one day and he just said you know I just think everyone's got a you know I just think everyone's got a you know I just think everyone's got a number on their back and he said some number on their back and he said some number on their back and he said some people's number is 50 some is 150 some's people's number is 50 some is 150 some's people's number is 50 some is 150 some's 200 some's a th000 some's 20,000 when 200 some's a th000 some's 20,000 when 200 some's a th000 some's 20,000 when when it comes to church I've never when it comes to church I've never when it comes to church I've never forgotten that and I'm wondering what forgotten that and I'm wondering what forgotten that and I'm wondering what you think of that theory do you think you think of that theory do you think you think of that theory do you think most of us have a number on your back most of us have a number on your back most of us have a number on your back like you were kind of arguing yeah I like you were kind of arguing yeah I like you were kind of arguing yeah I think I'm I'm wired to be a small Church

think I'm I'm wired to be a small Church think I'm I'm wired to be a small Church Pastor that's how God designed me that's Pastor that's how God designed me that's Pastor that's how God designed me that's how God made me other people like Rick how God made me other people like Rick how God made me other people like Rick Warren he was probably wired for 20,000 Warren he was probably wired for 20,000 Warren he was probably wired for 20,000 you know he's got a number on his back you know he's got a number on his back you know he's got a number on his back what what are your thoughts about that what what are your thoughts about that what what are your thoughts about that yeah I think there's something to that I yeah I think there's something to that I yeah I think there's something to that I I like to refer to it as shoe size uh I like to refer to it as shoe size uh I like to refer to it as shoe size uh right no nobody complains that my feet right no nobody complains that my feet right no nobody complains that my feet didn't get any bigger uh this is just my didn't get any bigger uh this is just my didn't get any bigger uh this is just my suit this is just what works from my suit this is just what works from my suit this is just what works from my body right uh and there's no reason for body right uh and there's no reason for body right uh and there's no reason for it to get bigger um and I do think that it to get bigger um and I do think that it to get bigger um and I do think that I I think if we look around and we ask I I think if we look around and we ask I I think if we look around and we ask for instance why are 80 to 90% of the for instance why are 80 to 90% of the for instance why are 80 to 90% of the churches in the world under 200 I think churches in the world under 200 I think churches in the world under 200 I think a lot of that we immediately want to a lot of that we immediately want to a lot of that we immediately want to find a reason why that's bad we find a reason why that's bad we find a reason why that's bad we immediately want to fix it as though immediately want to fix it as though immediately want to fix it as though it's a problem my question is what if it's a problem my question is what if it's a problem my question is what if that's not a problem what if all these that's not a problem what if all these that's not a problem what if all these small churches are a part of God's small churches are a part of God's small churches are a part of God's strategy not his entire strategy big strategy not his entire strategy big strategy not his entire strategy big churches are included in the strategy churches are included in the strategy churches are included in the strategy too but it seems like God strategy for too but it seems like God strategy for too but it seems like God strategy for 2,000 years in counting has been to have 2,000 years in counting has been to have 2,000 years in counting has been to have a whole lot of small churches which a whole lot of small churches which a whole lot of small churches which means we need a whole lot of small means we need a whole lot of small means we need a whole lot of small Church pastors which means a whole lot Church pastors which means a whole lot Church pastors which means a whole lot of us I think are called to small of us I think are called to small of us I think are called to small shepherding Ministry and when I talk to shepherding Ministry and when I talk to shepherding Ministry and when I talk to pastors and I asked them try to imagine pastors and I asked them try to imagine pastors and I asked them try to imagine back when you were first called to back when you were first called to back when you were first called to Ministry what did you imagine yourself Ministry what did you imagine yourself Ministry what did you imagine yourself doing and most of them will answer doing and most of them will answer doing and most of them will answer things like preaching on Sunday maybe things like preaching on Sunday maybe things like preaching on Sunday maybe even studying to preach on Sunday even studying to preach on Sunday even studying to preach on Sunday visiting people in the hospital and they visiting people in the hospital and they visiting people in the hospital and they will name a list of things that are will name a list of things that are will name a list of things that are almost exclusively small Church specific almost exclusively small Church specific almost exclusively small Church specific skills very few will answer with I want skills very few will answer with I want skills very few will answer with I want to build and manage a large staff I want to build and manage a large staff I want to build and manage a large staff I want to you know build a large facility now

to you know build a large facility now to you know build a large facility now there are a handful that do and I'm there are a handful that do and I'm there are a handful that do and I'm grateful for those because if everybody grateful for those because if everybody grateful for those because if everybody Pastor like me we we nothing would have Pastor like me we we nothing would have Pastor like me we we nothing would have ever gotten built we'd still be ever gotten built we'd still be ever gotten built we'd still be worshipping in caves so uh we need those worshipping in caves so uh we need those worshipping in caves so uh we need those Builders but I think they are smart far Builders but I think they are smart far Builders but I think they are smart far smaller percentage and part of the smaller percentage and part of the smaller percentage and part of the challenge we've had now over the last 40 challenge we've had now over the last 40 challenge we've had now over the last 40 years is we've un intentionally given years is we've un intentionally given years is we've un intentionally given the typical small Church Pastor like me the typical small Church Pastor like me the typical small Church Pastor like me the impression that if they're not the impression that if they're not the impression that if they're not getting bigger somehow they're getting bigger somehow they're getting bigger somehow they're failing and I think that yes sometimes failing and I think that yes sometimes failing and I think that yes sometimes that is the result of failure but I that is the result of failure but I that is the result of failure but I think most of the time it's simply think most of the time it's simply think most of the time it's simply that's the number on your back that's that's the number on your back that's that's the number on your back that's your shoe size that's where God has your shoe size that's where God has your shoe size that's where God has called you and where you do best your called you and where you do best your called you and where you do best your best kind of ministry I'd love to know best kind of ministry I'd love to know best kind of ministry I'd love to know because there are leaders listening because there are leaders listening because there are leaders listening right now who might be wired as small right now who might be wired as small right now who might be wired as small Church pastors but are at 300 400 500 Church pastors but are at 300 400 500 Church pastors but are at 300 400 500 I'd love to know from your own I'd love to know from your own I'd love to know from your own experience when you had that season what experience when you had that season what experience when you had that season what didn't feel right like what didn't fit didn't feel right like what didn't fit didn't feel right like what didn't fit for for for you well like I said I moved into you well like I said I moved into you well like I said I moved into management mode and so I was spending my management mode and so I was spending my management mode and so I was spending my time you know uh overseeing staff time you know uh overseeing staff time you know uh overseeing staff members and trying to find a new members and trying to find a new members and trying to find a new facility and trying to raise funds and facility and trying to raise funds and facility and trying to raise funds and none of those things suit me um if the none of those things suit me um if the none of those things suit me um if the church uh I I'm not currently pastoring church uh I I'm not currently pastoring church uh I I'm not currently pastoring my church I'm currently a member of the my church I'm currently a member of the my church I'm currently a member of the church my youth pastor became my lead church my youth pastor became my lead church my youth pastor became my lead pastor we had this wonderful succession pastor we had this wonderful succession pastor we had this wonderful succession that took place similar to and very that took place similar to and very that took place similar to and very shortly after what happened with you at shortly after what happened with you at shortly after what happened with you at Conexus um and so that's gone well but Conexus um and so that's gone well but Conexus um and so that's gone well but today in in the current environment if today in in the current environment if today in in the current environment if our church were to go through a similar our church were to go through a similar our church were to go through a similar growth spurt and to double or even

growth spurt and to double or even growth spurt and to double or even triple in the next couple of years we triple in the next couple of years we triple in the next couple of years we could do it well because when we could do it well because when we could do it well because when we assessed what went wrong the last time assessed what went wrong the last time assessed what went wrong the last time one of the key things that we were one of the key things that we were one of the key things that we were missing was discipleship I went out and missing was discipleship I went out and missing was discipleship I went out and hired outside staff when our church grew hired outside staff when our church grew hired outside staff when our church grew because I hadn't trained our own people because I hadn't trained our own people because I hadn't trained our own people to lead the church today if we were to to lead the church today if we were to to lead the church today if we were to double or triple in the next two or double or triple in the next two or double or triple in the next two or three years we wouldn't have to hire a three years we wouldn't have to hire a three years we wouldn't have to hire a single staff person from outside the single staff person from outside the single staff person from outside the church we could just take our part-time church we could just take our part-time church we could just take our part-time people and put them up the full-time and people and put them up the full-time and people and put them up the full-time and take the people who are already take the people who are already take the people who are already volunteering and give them uh some funds volunteering and give them uh some funds volunteering and give them uh some funds to be able to do so we are a church of to be able to do so we are a church of to be able to do so we are a church of about 150 or so now that seems to be our about 150 or so now that seems to be our about 150 or so now that seems to be our shoe size but if we came 300 or 400 we shoe size but if we came 300 or 400 we shoe size but if we came 300 or 400 we could adapt to that overnight because could adapt to that overnight because could adapt to that overnight because while we have 150 to 200 on a Sunday we while we have 150 to 200 on a Sunday we while we have 150 to 200 on a Sunday we have the systems in place for double have the systems in place for double have the systems in place for double that size easily I think you raised a that size easily I think you raised a that size easily I think you raised a really good point that church growth really good point that church growth really good point that church growth became an obsession and it was a became an obsession and it was a became an obsession and it was a movement a movement that's peaked and movement a movement that's peaked and movement a movement that's peaked and you know has faded etc etc and yet a lot you know has faded etc etc and yet a lot you know has faded etc etc and yet a lot of the assumptions around that quote of the assumptions around that quote of the assumptions around that quote industry back in the day uh were there industry back in the day uh were there industry back in the day uh were there what where did this Obsession come what where did this Obsession come what where did this Obsession come from that's that's the big question that from that's that's the big question that from that's that's the big question that you know inspired uh the book book uh you know inspired uh the book book uh you know inspired uh the book book uh because I feel for the last 10 to 10 to because I feel for the last 10 to 10 to because I feel for the last 10 to 10 to 11 years as I've been working with small 11 years as I've been working with small 11 years as I've been working with small Church pastors I I I got to the point Church pastors I I I got to the point Church pastors I I I got to the point about two or three years ago where I about two or three years ago where I about two or three years ago where I thought to myself I feel like I'm just thought to myself I feel like I'm just thought to myself I feel like I'm just pulling bodies out of the river all pulling bodies out of the river all pulling bodies out of the river all these people who are so discouraged uh these people who are so discouraged uh these people who are so discouraged uh that their Church isn't getting bigger

that their Church isn't getting bigger that their Church isn't getting bigger and in many cases everything el else and in many cases everything el else and in many cases everything el else about the church is good when you talk about the church is good when you talk about the church is good when you talk to them the ministry they're doing the to them the ministry they're doing the to them the ministry they're doing the kind of mission that they have they're kind of mission that they have they're kind of mission that they have they're forward-looking it's great but the forward-looking it's great but the forward-looking it's great but the numbers just aren't happening for them numbers just aren't happening for them numbers just aren't happening for them and they are where I was were almost and they are where I was were almost and they are where I was were almost almost ready to leave and I thought okay almost ready to leave and I thought okay almost ready to leave and I thought okay instead of just pulling bodies out of instead of just pulling bodies out of instead of just pulling bodies out of the river which I'm going to continue to the river which I'm going to continue to the river which I'm going to continue to do let's go up River and see who's do let's go up River and see who's do let's go up River and see who's tossing the bodies tossing the bodies tossing the bodies in so what I did was I did a deep study in so what I did was I did a deep study in so what I did was I did a deep study into the church growth movement and I into the church growth movement and I into the church growth movement and I thought I knew where I would find the thought I knew where I would find the thought I knew where I would find the culprits and I did not find them where I culprits and I did not find them where I culprits and I did not find them where I thought I would uh predominantly the thought I would uh predominantly the thought I would uh predominantly the church growth movement began in the 70s church growth movement began in the 70s church growth movement began in the 70s and really came into its own in the and really came into its own in the and really came into its own in the 1980s and 1990s out of the teachings of 1980s and 1990s out of the teachings of 1980s and 1990s out of the teachings of a man named Donald mcgavren mcgavren was a man named Donald mcgavren mcgavren was a man named Donald mcgavren mcgavren was was a a missionary in India for about 30 was a a missionary in India for about 30 was a a missionary in India for about 30 years and he learned uh he saw how God years and he learned uh he saw how God years and he learned uh he saw how God was using uh uh people to bring entire was using uh uh people to bring entire was using uh uh people to bring entire villages to Christ all at once and he villages to Christ all at once and he villages to Christ all at once and he started seeing this and going how do started seeing this and going how do started seeing this and going how do entire people movements come to Jesus at entire people movements come to Jesus at entire people movements come to Jesus at once and he studied this and he spent once and he studied this and he spent once and he studied this and he spent time working on it thinking maybe God is time working on it thinking maybe God is time working on it thinking maybe God is doing something here that we can learn doing something here that we can learn doing something here that we can learn from he then before he retired spent from he then before he retired spent from he then before he retired spent some time in several African nations some time in several African nations some time in several African nations where the same things were happening where the same things were happening where the same things were happening came home and wrote what is widely in came home and wrote what is widely in came home and wrote what is widely in fact unquestionably considered the first fact unquestionably considered the first fact unquestionably considered the first church growth book ever called The church growth book ever called The church growth book ever called The Bridges of God it's the first book Bridges of God it's the first book Bridges of God it's the first book literally where the term Church growth literally where the term Church growth literally where the term Church growth ever appears in print and um so he ever appears in print and um so he ever appears in print and um so he started teaching that uh well well he he started teaching that uh well well he he started teaching that uh well well he he wrote that and then he opened the church

wrote that and then he opened the church wrote that and then he opened the church growth Institute at Fuller uh in in growth Institute at Fuller uh in in growth Institute at Fuller uh in in Pasadena right near where I live and for Pasadena right near where I live and for Pasadena right near where I live and for the first seven years this is where it the first seven years this is where it the first seven years this is where it started to turn for me and I started started to turn for me and I started started to turn for me and I started going okay this is not what I expected going okay this is not what I expected going okay this is not what I expected for the first seven years he would not for the first seven years he would not for the first seven years he would not allow American pastors to attend the allow American pastors to attend the allow American pastors to attend the class now you can't interational yeah class now you can't interational yeah class now you can't interational yeah you can't just say no American pastors you can't just say no American pastors you can't just say no American pastors allowed they get upset at that so what allowed they get upset at that so what allowed they get upset at that so what he did was he had three requirements you he did was he had three requirements you he did was he had three requirements you have to have the Mastery of at least one have to have the Mastery of at least one have to have the Mastery of at least one other language you have to have done other language you have to have done other language you have to have done some work outside of uh your own your some work outside of uh your own your some work outside of uh your own your country of origin and three you have to country of origin and three you have to country of origin and three you have to show a Mastery of an indigenous people show a Mastery of an indigenous people show a Mastery of an indigenous people group outside of your own and so that group outside of your own and so that group outside of your own and so that that excludes 99.9% of North American that excludes 99.9% of North American that excludes 99.9% of North American pastors very easily so he's teaching pastors very easily so he's teaching pastors very easily so he's teaching almost entire foreign pastors and as I almost entire foreign pastors and as I almost entire foreign pastors and as I studied that I thought okay that's the studied that I thought okay that's the studied that I thought okay that's the Curious Thing so I actually talked with Curious Thing so I actually talked with Curious Thing so I actually talked with Gary Macintosh who wrote Donald Gary Macintosh who wrote Donald Gary Macintosh who wrote Donald mcgavin's biography and asked him why mcgavin's biography and asked him why mcgavin's biography and asked him why that was the case and he said and I'm that was the case and he said and I'm that was the case and he said and I'm I'm summarizing his findings and I'm I'm summarizing his findings and I'm I'm summarizing his findings and I'm using my own terminology now he said using my own terminology now he said using my own terminology now he said basically Donald McGavin was concerned basically Donald McGavin was concerned basically Donald McGavin was concerned that if American pastors got a hold of that if American pastors got a hold of that if American pastors got a hold of these Church growth principles instead these Church growth principles instead these Church growth principles instead of using them to see people movements of using them to see people movements of using them to see people movements come to Christ we'd use them to turn it come to Christ we'd use them to turn it come to Christ we'd use them to turn it into a big church contest into a big church contest into a big church contest again my phrasing not macintosh's and again my phrasing not macintosh's and again my phrasing not macintosh's and not Wagner's and sure enough what not Wagner's and sure enough what not Wagner's and sure enough what happened was when he finally did invite happened was when he finally did invite happened was when he finally did invite Pastors in that's what we did and for Pastors in that's what we did and for Pastors in that's what we did and for the last 30 to 40 years uh to put it the last 30 to 40 years uh to put it the last 30 to 40 years uh to put it bluntly we've kind of got this big

bluntly we've kind of got this big bluntly we've kind of got this big church contest going and so you know the church contest going and so you know the church contest going and so you know the main speakers at most of the conferences main speakers at most of the conferences main speakers at most of the conferences now the first line in their bio is they now the first line in their bio is they now the first line in their bio is they took a church from 30 to 3,000 in just took a church from 30 to 3,000 in just took a church from 30 to 3,000 in just three years so it's it's it's not even three years so it's it's it's not even three years so it's it's it's not even enough that we got big we got to get big enough that we got big we got to get big enough that we got big we got to get big fast and that's kind of become the fast and that's kind of become the fast and that's kind of become the marker for whether or not a church is marker for whether or not a church is marker for whether or not a church is doing successful and good Ministry and doing successful and good Ministry and doing successful and good Ministry and so it it so the question then became why so it it so the question then became why so it it so the question then became why are Americans obsessed with that and so are Americans obsessed with that and so are Americans obsessed with that and so I had to do a deep dive into American I had to do a deep dive into American I had to do a deep dive into American history and it actually it actually history and it actually it actually history and it actually it actually comes from America's best ideas so comes from America's best ideas so comes from America's best ideas so um the first amendment I don't think um the first amendment I don't think um the first amendment I don't think there is a higher ideal for governing a there is a higher ideal for governing a there is a higher ideal for governing a people than the First Amendment to the people than the First Amendment to the people than the First Amendment to the US Constitution freedom of speech US Constitution freedom of speech US Constitution freedom of speech freedom of religion freedom of assembly freedom of religion freedom of assembly freedom of religion freedom of assembly freedom of the press these are America's freedom of the press these are America's freedom of the press these are America's best ideas by a long shot but here's the best ideas by a long shot but here's the best ideas by a long shot but here's the thing if you have freedom of religion thing if you have freedom of religion thing if you have freedom of religion therefore you don't have a state therefore you don't have a state therefore you don't have a state sponsored Church unlike in Europe where sponsored Church unlike in Europe where sponsored Church unlike in Europe where they all came from who wrote the first they all came from who wrote the first they all came from who wrote the first amendment in Europe if you've got a amendment in Europe if you've got a amendment in Europe if you've got a state sponsored church when the state state sponsored church when the state state sponsored church when the state collects taxes they also collected collects taxes they also collected collects taxes they also collected tithes and then they distributed those tithes and then they distributed those tithes and then they distributed those tithes to the state sponsored pastors tithes to the state sponsored pastors tithes to the state sponsored pastors and their churches so if you were in a and their churches so if you were in a and their churches so if you were in a state sponsored Church you didn't have state sponsored Church you didn't have state sponsored Church you didn't have to worry about attendant are offering to worry about attendant are offering to worry about attendant are offering because you're getting your monthly because you're getting your monthly because you're getting your monthly government government government check but in America if there's no state check but in America if there's no state check but in America if there's no state sponsored church you can believe what sponsored church you can believe what sponsored church you can believe what you want you can plant any church you you want you can plant any church you you want you can plant any church you want but we ain't paying the bills you want but we ain't paying the bills you want but we ain't paying the bills you got to raise your funds so immediately got to raise your funds so immediately got to raise your funds so immediately the pastors who can attract the largest

the pastors who can attract the largest the pastors who can attract the largest crowds can get the most money can build crowds can get the most money can build crowds can get the most money can build the biggest buildings and size then the biggest buildings and size then the biggest buildings and size then becomes evidence of becomes evidence of becomes evidence of success so it was it was sort of some success so it was it was sort of some success so it was it was sort of some unintended consequences then yeah from unintended consequences then yeah from unintended consequences then yeah from the founder who was trying to keep it the founder who was trying to keep it the founder who was trying to keep it small and kind of knew hey this could small and kind of knew hey this could small and kind of knew hey this could get out of control and you're right it's get out of control and you're right it's get out of control and you're right it's a uniquely American story and it's all a uniquely American story and it's all a uniquely American story and it's all those things we admire about America you those things we admire about America you those things we admire about America you know initiative know initiative know initiative entrepreneurship uh the belief that you entrepreneurship uh the belief that you entrepreneurship uh the belief that you can do it but it's got a shadow side as can do it but it's got a shadow side as can do it but it's got a shadow side as well well well um what impact did the suburbs have on um what impact did the suburbs have on um what impact did the suburbs have on the church growth the church growth the church growth movement that was another surprise I did movement that was another surprise I did movement that was another surprise I did not expect that in my book about church not expect that in my book about church not expect that in my book about church growth I'd write an entire chapter about growth I'd write an entire chapter about growth I'd write an entire chapter about the rise of the suburbs yeah uh but yeah the rise of the suburbs yeah uh but yeah the rise of the suburbs yeah uh but yeah it it the research led me there so start it it the research led me there so start it it the research led me there so start with this when you picture a mega church with this when you picture a mega church with this when you picture a mega church in your mind what do you in your mind what do you in your mind what do you see yeah it's in the suburbs it's big see yeah it's in the suburbs it's big see yeah it's in the suburbs it's big it's got massive it's got massive it's got massive acreage exactly and so and when you and acreage exactly and so and when you and acreage exactly and so and when you and think of the most influential mega think of the most influential mega think of the most influential mega churches of the last 20 to 30 years churches of the last 20 to 30 years churches of the last 20 to 30 years where are they they're in Lake Forest where are they they're in Lake Forest where are they they're in Lake Forest they're in South barington they're in they're in South barington they're in they're in South barington they're in Alpharetta they are in wealthy suburbs Alpharetta they are in wealthy suburbs Alpharetta they are in wealthy suburbs of large cities right not exclusively of large cities right not exclusively of large cities right not exclusively there's Brooklyn Tabernacle there's there's Brooklyn Tabernacle there's there's Brooklyn Tabernacle there's bethl in Reading which is a small town bethl in Reading which is a small town bethl in Reading which is a small town in northern California so not all of in northern California so not all of in northern California so not all of them but them but them but predominantly yeah the biggest churches predominantly yeah the biggest churches predominantly yeah the biggest churches and the most influential mega churches

and the most influential mega churches and the most influential mega churches are in wealthy suburbs of large cities are in wealthy suburbs of large cities are in wealthy suburbs of large cities and that's because when the suburbs came and that's because when the suburbs came and that's because when the suburbs came along the suburbs came because of two along the suburbs came because of two along the suburbs came because of two things because of the rise of the things because of the rise of the things because of the rise of the automobile and then because the building automobile and then because the building automobile and then because the building of the interstates in the 1960s and so of the interstates in the 1960s and so of the interstates in the 1960s and so now all of a sudden dad who works in the now all of a sudden dad who works in the now all of a sudden dad who works in the city uh doesn't have to live in the city city uh doesn't have to live in the city city uh doesn't have to live in the city because they can he can now drive into because they can he can now drive into because they can he can now drive into the city in less than half an hour on the city in less than half an hour on the city in less than half an hour on these wonderful new interstates in the these wonderful new interstates in the these wonderful new interstates in the brand new car and then drive back home brand new car and then drive back home brand new car and then drive back home again for the evening okay and this is again for the evening okay and this is again for the evening okay and this is where you then have this idealized where you then have this idealized where you then have this idealized picture and often parodied picture of picture and often parodied picture of picture and often parodied picture of the 1950s and the 1960s Bor housewife in the 1950s and the 1960s Bor housewife in the 1950s and the 1960s Bor housewife in the suburbs hardworking Dad having an the suburbs hardworking Dad having an the suburbs hardworking Dad having an affair in the city during the day right affair in the city during the day right affair in the city during the day right that the Mad Men thing you know that that the Mad Men thing you know that that the Mad Men thing you know that that comes out of the rise of the that comes out of the rise of the that comes out of the rise of the suburbs so as people are moving to the suburbs so as people are moving to the suburbs so as people are moving to the suburbs predominantly people who have suburbs predominantly people who have suburbs predominantly people who have the money to go to the suburbs and the the money to go to the suburbs and the the money to go to the suburbs and the people who have the money to buy a car people who have the money to buy a car people who have the money to buy a car and the amount of gas that a car takes and the amount of gas that a car takes and the amount of gas that a car takes to drive in and out which means to drive in and out which means to drive in and out which means predominantly folks who look like you predominantly folks who look like you predominantly folks who look like you and me whiter folks so poorer people and and me whiter folks so poorer people and and me whiter folks so poorer people and minorities then are stuck in the city minorities then are stuck in the city minorities then are stuck in the city because they can't afford to move to the because they can't afford to move to the because they can't afford to move to the suburbs so the suburbs become large the suburbs so the suburbs become large the suburbs so the suburbs become large the suburbs become predominantly white suburbs become predominantly white suburbs become predominantly white and businesses follow that because and businesses follow that because and businesses follow that because that's where the people in the money are that's where the people in the money are that's where the people in the money are and as they should churches and pastors and as they should churches and pastors and as they should churches and pastors look around and go there's a lot of look around and go there's a lot of look around and go there's a lot of people moving out there they need people moving out there they need people moving out there they need churches too so the churches go to the churches too so the churches go to the churches too so the churches go to the suburb but now the church in the suburb suburb but now the church in the suburb suburb but now the church in the suburb has a different opportunity and a has a different opportunity and a has a different opportunity and a different model for everything from how

different model for everything from how different model for everything from how their campus will look to what people their campus will look to what people their campus will look to what people want from the church in the suburb than want from the church in the suburb than want from the church in the suburb than what they wanted in the city or what what they wanted in the city or what what they wanted in the city or what they wanted in the small town and so they wanted in the small town and so they wanted in the small town and so because this is where the people are because this is where the people are because this is where the people are moving you get new ideas you build moving you get new ideas you build moving you get new ideas you build churches and they start to grow large churches and they start to grow large churches and they start to grow large and then we look at the churches in the and then we look at the churches in the and then we look at the churches in the suburbs that are getting large and we go suburbs that are getting large and we go suburbs that are getting large and we go oh we should do what they're doing but oh we should do what they're doing but oh we should do what they're doing but if you're in a small town if you're in if you're in a small town if you're in if you're in a small town if you're in in an agricultural area or if you're in an agricultural area or if you're in an agricultural area or if you're downtown in a large city there's only so downtown in a large city there's only so downtown in a large city there's only so much you can learn from the Suburban much you can learn from the Suburban much you can learn from the Suburban mega church because you're in a very mega church because you're in a very mega church because you're in a very very different environment but it became very different environment but it became very different environment but it became idealized over the last uh 20 to 30 idealized over the last uh 20 to 30 idealized over the last uh 20 to 30 years and then people who couldn't match years and then people who couldn't match years and then people who couldn't match that kind of growth started feeling like that kind of growth started feeling like that kind of growth started feeling like maybe there's a problem with me but it maybe there's a problem with me but it maybe there's a problem with me but it isn't that there's a problem with you isn't that there's a problem with you isn't that there's a problem with you it's that the city and the farmland and it's that the city and the farmland and it's that the city and the farmland and the small town have a very different uh the small town have a very different uh the small town have a very different uh lifestyle and their churches need to lifestyle and their churches need to lifestyle and their churches need to look very different than the Suburban look very different than the Suburban look very different than the Suburban mega church um obviously in the last few church um obviously in the last few years digital Ministry has taken that to years digital Ministry has taken that to years digital Ministry has taken that to a whole other level what are the a whole other level what are the a whole other level what are the opportunities and some of the obstacles opportunities and some of the obstacles opportunities and some of the obstacles in your view that social media and in your view that social media and in your view that social media and digital Ministry present Carl digital Ministry present Carl digital Ministry present Carl yeah I encourage every Church of every yeah I encourage every Church of every yeah I encourage every Church of every size to get online in some way or size to get online in some way or size to get online in some way or another um first of all you got to have another um first of all you got to have another um first of all you got to have a website in most places if you don't a website in most places if you don't a website in most places if you don't have a website you might as well you have a website you might as well you have a website you might as well you know not expect anybody new to come know not expect anybody new to come know not expect anybody new to come because virtually yeah virtually because virtually yeah virtually because virtually yeah virtually everybody will check you out online everybody will check you out online everybody will check you out online first and if they can't find you online first and if they can't find you online first and if they can't find you online they won't look but for smaller churches

they won't look but for smaller churches they won't look but for smaller churches this is something that um I've been this is something that um I've been this is something that um I've been really considering recently and I really considering recently and I really considering recently and I believe it was Chad Brooks who was on my believe it was Chad Brooks who was on my believe it was Chad Brooks who was on my podcast and and walked me through this a podcast and and walked me through this a podcast and and walked me through this a little bit little bit little bit and um the way the way I look at it is and um the way the way I look at it is and um the way the way I look at it is this he actually saysi encourage smaller this he actually saysi encourage smaller this he actually saysi encourage smaller churches to stop live streaming their churches to stop live streaming their churches to stop live streaming their services but to start podcasting their services but to start podcasting their services but to start podcasting their sermons instead and here's here's why sermons instead and here's here's why sermons instead and here's here's why and I think it's a really logical and I think it's a really logical and I think it's a really logical thought through when you live stream thought through when you live stream thought through when you live stream your service and you are in a small your service and you are in a small your service and you are in a small church and you don't have the technical church and you don't have the technical church and you don't have the technical expertise you don't have people who do expertise you don't have people who do expertise you don't have people who do this for a living who know how to set up this for a living who know how to set up this for a living who know how to set up multiple cameras and uh and so on multiple cameras and uh and so on multiple cameras and uh and so on the way you're presenting yourself as the way you're presenting yourself as the way you're presenting yourself as the first look to your community is the first look to your community is the first look to your community is probably going to be low quality you're probably going to be low quality you're probably going to be low quality you're gonna have a camera stationary setup in gonna have a camera stationary setup in gonna have a camera stationary setup in the back uh it's not going to look great the back uh it's not going to look great the back uh it's not going to look great they're gonna watch people come and go they're gonna watch people come and go they're gonna watch people come and go for the first few minutes while for the first few minutes while for the first few minutes while everybody's finding their seat they're everybody's finding their seat they're everybody's finding their seat they're going to watch as people turn around and going to watch as people turn around and going to watch as people turn around and shake hands and the music mix is going shake hands and the music mix is going shake hands and the music mix is going to be off even if you've got great to be off even if you've got great to be off even if you've got great musicians in a small Church the music musicians in a small Church the music musicians in a small Church the music mix online is going to be completely mix online is going to be completely mix online is going to be completely different and you don't have the different and you don't have the different and you don't have the professionals who know how to make that professionals who know how to make that professionals who know how to make that mix work so your first impression is not mix work so your first impression is not mix work so your first impression is not going to be as good as it feels in the going to be as good as it feels in the going to be as good as it feels in the room so instead of doing the lives and room so instead of doing the lives and room so instead of doing the lives and plus here's the deal if you're a small plus here's the deal if you're a small plus here's the deal if you're a small Church Pastor and your sermon goes viral Church Pastor and your sermon goes viral Church Pastor and your sermon goes viral it won't be because it was the best it won't be because it was the best it won't be because it was the best sermon you ever preached it will be sermon you ever preached it will be sermon you ever preached it will be because it was the stupidest thing you because it was the stupidest thing you because it was the stupidest thing you ever ever ever [Laughter]

[Laughter] [Laughter] said right there's a lot of Truth in said right there's a lot of Truth in said right there's a lot of Truth in that that's what they're going to catch that that's what they're going to catch that that's what they're going to catch and that's what's going to go viral and that's what's going to go viral and that's what's going to go viral they're going to take that clip so if they're going to take that clip so if they're going to take that clip so if don't live stream it just get a really don't live stream it just get a really don't live stream it just get a really good microphone so that your sermon can good microphone so that your sermon can good microphone so that your sermon can be heard well because let's let's be be heard well because let's let's be be heard well because let's let's be honest with ourselves when people watch honest with ourselves when people watch honest with ourselves when people watch a service when I watch my home church a service when I watch my home church a service when I watch my home church service when I'm on the road I scroll service when I'm on the road I scroll service when I'm on the road I scroll through the worship and I just get to through the worship and I just get to through the worship and I just get to the the the sermon and half the time I'm listening sermon and half the time I'm listening sermon and half the time I'm listening to the sermon I'm not watching it on to the sermon I'm not watching it on to the sermon I'm not watching it on YouTube I'm listening to it while I'm YouTube I'm listening to it while I'm YouTube I'm listening to it while I'm out for a walk or while I'm doing chores out for a walk or while I'm doing chores out for a walk or while I'm doing chores or something else that 99% of us or something else that 99% of us or something else that 99% of us probably only listening anyway so who probably only listening anyway so who probably only listening anyway so who cares so you're not going to do video cares so you're not going to do video cares so you're not going to do video well anyway so don't well anyway so don't well anyway so don't try get get the audio well because any try get get the audio well because any try get get the audio well because any any church of any size can get a good any church of any size can get a good any church of any size can get a good enough microphone that the qu the audio enough microphone that the qu the audio enough microphone that the qu the audio quality will be solid and then get quality will be solid and then get quality will be solid and then get somebody get a young person in your somebody get a young person in your somebody get a young person in your church get almost anybody who knows church get almost anybody who knows church get almost anybody who knows basic stuff you can go to Spotify right basic stuff you can go to Spotify right basic stuff you can go to Spotify right now and put a podcast up way easier than now and put a podcast up way easier than now and put a podcast up way easier than you ever could before and on Monday or you ever could before and on Monday or you ever could before and on Monday or Tuesday your sermon only podcast comes Tuesday your sermon only podcast comes Tuesday your sermon only podcast comes out and you have a chance that one dumb out and you have a chance that one dumb out and you have a chance that one dumb thing you said that you'd really not thing you said that you'd really not thing you said that you'd really not have the world here you can pull that have the world here you can pull that have the world here you can pull that out or that one spot where you made a out or that one spot where you made a out or that one spot where you made a direct reference to somebody in the direct reference to somebody in the direct reference to somebody in the church and you're realizing oh I church and you're realizing oh I church and you're realizing oh I probably shouldn't have me mentioned so probably shouldn't have me mentioned so probably shouldn't have me mentioned so and so to people who don't even know who and so to people who don't even know who and so to people who don't even know who they are and what their situation is I they are and what their situation is I they are and what their situation is I can you can edit it a little bit you can can you can edit it a little bit you can can you can edit it a little bit you can put out just the sermon which is all put out just the sermon which is all put out just the sermon which is all people want to hear and then you've got people want to hear and then you've got people want to hear and then you've got a best foot forward so we need to be a best foot forward so we need to be a best foot forward so we need to be using the online stuff but the way small using the online stuff but the way small using the online stuff but the way small churches use it are going to look very

churches use it are going to look very churches use it are going to look very different than the way big churches use different than the way big churches use different than the way big churches use it do you have in your mind or your it do you have in your mind or your it do you have in your mind or your guest I've heard Brady Shear give guest I've heard Brady Shear give guest I've heard Brady Shear give similar advice and I think post Co similar advice and I think post Co similar advice and I think post Co that's really solid Council otherwise it that's really solid Council otherwise it that's really solid Council otherwise it ends up looking like a school play you ends up looking like a school play you ends up looking like a school play you know what I mean you just don't have the know what I mean you just don't have the know what I mean you just don't have the audio you don't have the video etc etc audio you don't have the video etc etc audio you don't have the video etc etc is there a size at which that becomes is there a size at which that becomes is there a size at which that becomes realistic like 500 700 800 a, thousand realistic like 500 700 800 a, thousand realistic like 500 700 800 a, thousand or do you have a benchmark like that in or do you have a benchmark like that in or do you have a benchmark like that in your mind or you think it depends on the your mind or you think it depends on the your mind or you think it depends on the situation it it depends on who you've situation it it depends on who you've situation it it depends on who you've got I'm in Orange County California we got I'm in Orange County California we got I'm in Orange County California we have 150 to 200 people on a Sunday and have 150 to 200 people on a Sunday and have 150 to 200 people on a Sunday and we live stream our services with audio we live stream our services with audio we live stream our services with audio and video and it looks and sounds great and video and it looks and sounds great and video and it looks and sounds great why because I live in Orange County why because I live in Orange County why because I live in Orange County California I got videographers and California I got videographers and California I got videographers and editors all over the place I don't have editors all over the place I don't have editors all over the place I don't have anybody who owns a table saw but but I anybody who owns a table saw but but I anybody who owns a table saw but but I got videographers and and and got videographers and and and got videographers and and and photographers around so we have the photographers around so we have the photographers around so we have the skill set at a smaller size but if skill set at a smaller size but if skill set at a smaller size but if you're living somewhere uh you know in you're living somewhere uh you know in you're living somewhere uh you know in an agricultural Community you probably an agricultural Community you probably an agricultural Community you probably do have more technical people than you do have more technical people than you do have more technical people than you realize but you're not going to have as realize but you're not going to have as realize but you're not going to have as many as we have in Orange County so it many as we have in Orange County so it many as we have in Orange County so it really depends on the skill level of the really depends on the skill level of the really depends on the skill level of the people in your church more than it does people in your church more than it does people in your church more than it does the size of your congregation and you the size of your congregation and you the size of your congregation and you made a really good point I just want to made a really good point I just want to made a really good point I just want to underscore before we move on look for underscore before we move on look for underscore before we move on look for youth I mean they grew up on Tik Tok and youth I mean they grew up on Tik Tok and youth I mean they grew up on Tik Tok and YouTube and all that and your YouTube and all that and your YouTube and all that and your 18-year-old is probably going to be 18-year-old is probably going to be 18-year-old is probably going to be better than most of your 48y Olds when better than most of your 48y Olds when better than most of your 48y Olds when it comes to volunteering in the tech it comes to volunteering in the tech it comes to volunteering in the tech area period um so we talked about some area period um so we talked about some area period um so we talked about some of the consequences of the obsession of the consequences of the obsession of the consequences of the obsession with size but you meet with church

with size but you meet with church with size but you meet with church leaders literally around the world who leaders literally around the world who leaders literally around the world who feel defeated what are some of the feel defeated what are some of the feel defeated what are some of the intended unintended consequences of our intended unintended consequences of our intended unintended consequences of our obsession with size yeah um I I I have obsession with size yeah um I I I have obsession with size yeah um I I I have this picture in my head this picture in my head this picture in my head imagine if we could remove the burden of imagine if we could remove the burden of imagine if we could remove the burden of I have to be bigger year after year from I have to be bigger year after year from I have to be bigger year after year from the shoulders of every single Pastor in the shoulders of every single Pastor in the shoulders of every single Pastor in the world small sizes and big sizes the world small sizes and big sizes the world small sizes and big sizes because I know churches that are big who because I know churches that are big who because I know churches that are big who if their if their numbers aren't up if their if their numbers aren't up if their if their numbers aren't up month to month every here they start month to month every here they start month to month every here they start getting depressed about their own lack getting depressed about their own lack getting depressed about their own lack of growth even if they're already in the of growth even if they're already in the of growth even if they're already in the in the thousands so if you could just in the thousands so if you could just in the thousands so if you could just simply remove the burden of I have to simply remove the burden of I have to simply remove the burden of I have to get bigger by this time next year than I get bigger by this time next year than I get bigger by this time next year than I am at this current time next year if am at this current time next year if am at this current time next year if that could be removed from their that could be removed from their that could be removed from their shoulders I have an I have not just a shoulders I have an I have not just a shoulders I have an I have not just a guess but I'm convinced that this would guess but I'm convinced that this would guess but I'm convinced that this would raise the emotional health and spiritual raise the emotional health and spiritual raise the emotional health and spiritual health of pastors all around the world health of pastors all around the world health of pastors all around the world if that burden would be removed now the if that burden would be removed now the if that burden would be removed now the challenge is you don't want you won challenge is you don't want you won challenge is you don't want you won don't want to remove that burden and don't want to remove that burden and don't want to remove that burden and then also uh completely uh demotivate then also uh completely uh demotivate then also uh completely uh demotivate them where it just doesn't matter if we them where it just doesn't matter if we them where it just doesn't matter if we reach people because this is not about reach people because this is not about reach people because this is not about settling for Less this is about having settling for Less this is about having settling for Less this is about having an unhealthy expectation for numbers an unhealthy expectation for numbers an unhealthy expectation for numbers rather than simply contributing to the rather than simply contributing to the rather than simply contributing to the growth of the kingdom of God and I think growth of the kingdom of God and I think growth of the kingdom of God and I think I think that's a really good tension

I think that's a really good tension I think that's a really good tension point to dwell on for a minute Carl when point to dwell on for a minute Carl when point to dwell on for a minute Carl when you and I have had some really fruitful you and I have had some really fruitful you and I have had some really fruitful discussions over the years on and off discussions over the years on and off discussions over the years on and off line um you're right there is this line um you're right there is this line um you're right there is this obsession with numbers this obsession obsession with numbers this obsession obsession with numbers this obsession with if I don't grow I'm a failure which with if I don't grow I'm a failure which with if I don't grow I'm a failure which is unhealthy on about a hundred levels is unhealthy on about a hundred levels is unhealthy on about a hundred levels spiritual emotional psychological etc spiritual emotional psychological etc spiritual emotional psychological etc etc on the other hand we do have this etc on the other hand we do have this etc on the other hand we do have this outward focused mission right that I outward focused mission right that I outward focused mission right that I don't know too many leaders I don't know don't know too many leaders I don't know don't know too many leaders I don't know any pastors who got into Ministry to any pastors who got into Ministry to any pastors who got into Ministry to reach fewer people right like I'm hoping reach fewer people right like I'm hoping reach fewer people right like I'm hoping our church of 150 is a church of 75 next our church of 150 is a church of 75 next our church of 150 is a church of 75 next year no nobody nobody believes that year no nobody nobody believes that year no nobody nobody believes that nobody says that and I think you know we nobody says that and I think you know we nobody says that and I think you know we we have a gospel that points outward so we have a gospel that points outward so we have a gospel that points outward so how do you how do you balance how do you how do you how do you balance how do you how do you how do you balance how do you manage the tension between like a manage the tension between like a manage the tension between like a god-given desire to reach people and god-given desire to reach people and god-given desire to reach people and that not very healthy pressure to grow that not very healthy pressure to grow that not very healthy pressure to grow grow grow grow grow what do you do about grow grow grow grow what do you do about grow grow grow grow what do you do about that yeah that that is hugely important that yeah that that is hugely important that yeah that that is hugely important and is the main question and if I ever and is the main question and if I ever and is the main question and if I ever get push back in this ministry to small get push back in this ministry to small get push back in this ministry to small churches the only push back I ever get churches the only push back I ever get churches the only push back I ever get is along those lines like okay it's okay is along those lines like okay it's okay is along those lines like okay it's okay if you guys want to be small but we want if you guys want to be small but we want if you guys want to be small but we want to keep reaching people so we're going to keep reaching people so we're going to keep reaching people so we're going to keep getting bigger my first response to keep getting bigger my first response to keep getting bigger my first response is do you think we don't want to reach is do you think we don't want to reach is do you think we don't want to reach people and that's why we're small first people and that's why we're small first people and that's why we're small first of all that's not the case and I know of all that's not the case and I know of all that's not the case and I know that's not the case you're making um but that's not the case you're making um but that's not the case you're making um but when we look at it what we have to what when we look at it what we have to what when we look at it what we have to what we have to realize is this I we have to realize is this I we have to realize is this I am my calling is not to get more people am my calling is not to get more people am my calling is not to get more people to sit in front of me on a Sunday

to sit in front of me on a Sunday to sit in front of me on a Sunday morning that you can't go nobody could morning that you can't go nobody could morning that you can't go nobody could take the Bible and do an honest reading take the Bible and do an honest reading take the Bible and do an honest reading through it get to the and go oh it's through it get to the and go oh it's through it get to the and go oh it's about getting more people in the about getting more people in the about getting more people in the building that's what Jesus was all building that's what Jesus was all building that's what Jesus was all about we we sometimes read that into the about we we sometimes read that into the about we we sometimes read that into the text but it doesn't come from the text text but it doesn't come from the text text but it doesn't come from the text okay what comes from the text is okay what comes from the text is okay what comes from the text is missional in fact there's an entire missional in fact there's an entire missional in fact there's an entire chapter in desizing the church that I chapter in desizing the church that I chapter in desizing the church that I talk about what the church growth talk about what the church growth talk about what the church growth movement got right because I'm not just movement got right because I'm not just movement got right because I'm not just wholesale uh dissing the church growth wholesale uh dissing the church growth wholesale uh dissing the church growth movement I think the church growth movement I think the church growth movement I think the church growth movement did a lot of good things movement did a lot of good things movement did a lot of good things including reminding us again of the including reminding us again of the including reminding us again of the missional role that the church has that missional role that the church has that missional role that the church has that we are supposed to be reaching people we are supposed to be reaching people we are supposed to be reaching people the challenge we have is are we okay if the challenge we have is are we okay if the challenge we have is are we okay if a congregation has a a congregation has a a congregation has a missional uh approach to Ministry and missional uh approach to Ministry and missional uh approach to Ministry and people are coming to Christ through the people are coming to Christ through the people are coming to Christ through the ministry of that church but it doesn't ministry of that church but it doesn't ministry of that church but it doesn't put butts in the seed on Sunday morning put butts in the seed on Sunday morning put butts in the seed on Sunday morning am I okay with that kind of growth am I okay with that kind of growth am I okay with that kind of growth because that's what Donald mcgavren was because that's what Donald mcgavren was because that's what Donald mcgavren was about when I discovered it right he was about when I discovered it right he was about when I discovered it right he was about how do we increase the number of about how do we increase the number of about how do we increase the number of Christians in this community and if the Christians in this community and if the Christians in this community and if the way to increase inrease the number of way to increase inrease the number of way to increase inrease the number of Christians in this community is to build Christians in this community is to build Christians in this community is to build a whole bunch of small churches let's do a whole bunch of small churches let's do a whole bunch of small churches let's do that if the way to increase the that if the way to increase the that if the way to increase the percentage of Christians in this percentage of Christians in this percentage of Christians in this community is to build one big church community is to build one big church community is to build one big church let's do that if it's a combination of let's do that if it's a combination of let's do that if it's a combination of the two which it usually is then let's the two which it usually is then let's the two which it usually is then let's do that so the question isn't are there do that so the question isn't are there do that so the question isn't are there more people sitting in front of me more people sitting in front of me more people sitting in front of me year-to year the question is can we look year-to year the question is can we look year-to year the question is can we look around and see that we are contributing around and see that we are contributing around and see that we are contributing to the growth of the kingdom of God to the growth of the kingdom of God to the growth of the kingdom of God maybe in many ways outside our walls and

maybe in many ways outside our walls and maybe in many ways outside our walls and now with online Ministry that is going now with online Ministry that is going now with online Ministry that is going to be a higher likelihood than ever to be a higher likelihood than ever to be a higher likelihood than ever before and we need to be not just okay before and we need to be not just okay before and we need to be not just okay with that but celebrate it when it with that but celebrate it when it with that but celebrate it when it happens what else did the church growth happens what else did the church growth happens what else did the church growth movement get right I appreciated that movement get right I appreciated that movement get right I appreciated that you went there yeah I the church growth you went there yeah I the church growth you went there yeah I the church growth movement was really helpful in a whole movement was really helpful in a whole movement was really helpful in a whole lot of ways one of the things that lot of ways one of the things that lot of ways one of the things that impresses me about my big church friends impresses me about my big church friends impresses me about my big church friends is their heart of is their heart of is their heart of generosity um how many conferences have generosity um how many conferences have generosity um how many conferences have you and I both been to that are at a you and I both been to that are at a you and I both been to that are at a large Church why at a large church large Church why at a large church large Church why at a large church because that's how many people are because that's how many people are because that's how many people are coming to the conference my church coming to the conference my church coming to the conference my church wouldn't hold it okay and that large wouldn't hold it okay and that large wouldn't hold it okay and that large Church offers their facility usually for Church offers their facility usually for Church offers their facility usually for free yeah and their entire staff is on free yeah and their entire staff is on free yeah and their entire staff is on board for that and they've worked on it board for that and they've worked on it board for that and they've worked on it for weeks or months in advance and for weeks or months in advance and for weeks or months in advance and they're doing it why to Simply share they're doing it why to Simply share they're doing it why to Simply share what they've learned and what the what they've learned and what the what they've learned and what the speakers are learning with as many speakers are learning with as many speakers are learning with as many pastors and as many churches as possible pastors and as many churches as possible pastors and as many churches as possible when a when a a church growth Pastor when a when a a church growth Pastor when a when a a church growth Pastor comes up with an idea that works they comes up with an idea that works they comes up with an idea that works they don't rush to the trade Trademark Office don't rush to the trade Trademark Office don't rush to the trade Trademark Office nobody's trademarking their Church nobody's trademarking their Church nobody's trademarking their Church growth ideas they are sharing them as growth ideas they are sharing them as growth ideas they are sharing them as quickly and as inexpensively and usually quickly and as inexpensively and usually quickly and as inexpensively and usually free through podcast like yours as free through podcast like yours as free through podcast like yours as quickly as possible to as many people as quickly as possible to as many people as quickly as possible to as many people as possible the heart of generosity that possible the heart of generosity that possible the heart of generosity that has been created from the church growth has been created from the church growth has been created from the church growth movement is wonderful and the lowering movement is wonderful and the lowering movement is wonderful and the lowering of denominational walls is H I think a of denominational walls is H I think a of denominational walls is H I think a direct result of the church growth direct result of the church growth direct result of the church growth movement where I am now invited 10% of

movement where I am now invited 10% of movement where I am now invited 10% of my invitations to speak are within my my invitations to speak are within my my invitations to speak are within my denomination n % are outside my denomination n % are outside my denomination n % are outside my denomination and some denom denomination and some denom denomination and some denom denominations that hold some denominations that hold some denominations that hold some significantly different views than I do significantly different views than I do significantly different views than I do in my denomination on secondary issues in my denomination on secondary issues in my denomination on secondary issues non Salva not salvation issues but on non Salva not salvation issues but on non Salva not salvation issues but on secondary issues and we're looking at secondary issues and we're looking at secondary issues and we're looking at them and going those are secondary you them and going those are secondary you them and going those are secondary you can help us we can work together and I can help us we can work together and I can help us we can work together and I believe that's a direct result of the believe that's a direct result of the believe that's a direct result of the church growth movement for which I'm church growth movement for which I'm church growth movement for which I'm profoundly grateful I think that's profoundly grateful I think that's profoundly grateful I think that's really well said and I think that's true really well said and I think that's true really well said and I think that's true you know it got over some of the you know it got over some of the you know it got over some of the tribalism some of the parochialism of a tribalism some of the parochialism of a tribalism some of the parochialism of a lot of churches back in the day the lot of churches back in the day the lot of churches back in the day the other thing that that's I got a lot of other thing that that's I got a lot of other thing that that's I got a lot of directions I'd love to take this with directions I'd love to take this with directions I'd love to take this with you Carl but you know I remember talking you Carl but you know I remember talking you Carl but you know I remember talking to Gordon McDonald once and uh Gordon's to Gordon McDonald once and uh Gordon's to Gordon McDonald once and uh Gordon's just uh just the most beautiful human just uh just the most beautiful human just uh just the most beautiful human and he was saying when he was pastoring and he was saying when he was pastoring and he was saying when he was pastoring Grace Chapel in Boston like in Grace Chapel in Boston like in Grace Chapel in Boston like in Massachusetts this was in the 70s 50 Massachusetts this was in the 70s 50 Massachusetts this was in the 70s 50 years ago there just weren't that many years ago there just weren't that many years ago there just weren't that many big churches so they didn't know what to big churches so they didn't know what to big churches so they didn't know what to do they didn't know how to respond to it do they didn't know how to respond to it do they didn't know how to respond to it you know even if you look at spurgeon's you know even if you look at spurgeon's you know even if you look at spurgeon's church wasn't that big compared to you church wasn't that big compared to you church wasn't that big compared to you know I could we we could list 30 mega know I could we we could list 30 mega know I could we we could list 30 mega churches you've never heard of that were churches you've never heard of that were churches you've never heard of that were bigger than Charles spurgeon's Church bigger than Charles spurgeon's Church bigger than Charles spurgeon's Church and a lot of that is what you said the and a lot of that is what you said the and a lot of that is what you said the suburbs Mobility um our connectedness suburbs Mobility um our connectedness suburbs Mobility um our connectedness culture changed so the church changed culture changed so the church changed culture changed so the church changed with it we are and you know when the with it we are and you know when the with it we are and you know when the church growth movement hit in the 80s church growth movement hit in the 80s church growth movement hit in the 80s 90s and 2000s and the attractional model 90s and 2000s and the attractional model 90s and 2000s and the attractional model was born we were inventing something and

was born we were inventing something and was born we were inventing something and we didn't understand its consequences so we didn't understand its consequences so we didn't understand its consequences so I think this is a maturing of the I think this is a maturing of the I think this is a maturing of the conversation to the point where we don't conversation to the point where we don't conversation to the point where we don't have to have enemies the small church is have to have enemies the small church is have to have enemies the small church is not the enemy and the big church is not not the enemy and the big church is not not the enemy and the big church is not the enemy any more thoughts on that as the enemy any more thoughts on that as the enemy any more thoughts on that as we you know shift the dialogue into the we you know shift the dialogue into the we you know shift the dialogue into the mid 2020s literally 50 years after mid 2020s literally 50 years after mid 2020s literally 50 years after churches for real started to become big churches for real started to become big churches for real started to become big at scale yeah when I was a kid we could at scale yeah when I was a kid we could at scale yeah when I was a kid we could we would travel uh I was raised in we would travel uh I was raised in we would travel uh I was raised in Toronto and we would travel we had Toronto and we would travel we had Toronto and we would travel we had family in Phoenix so we would make that family in Phoenix so we would make that family in Phoenix so we would make that uh Trek regularly and along the way we'd uh Trek regularly and along the way we'd uh Trek regularly and along the way we'd often stop at different churches on often stop at different churches on often stop at different churches on Sunday and go and and speak uh and and Sunday and go and and speak uh and and Sunday and go and and speak uh and and hear them and I remember we went to akan hear them and I remember we went to akan hear them and I remember we went to akan uh Rex humbard he was had maybe one of uh Rex humbard he was had maybe one of uh Rex humbard he was had maybe one of the two or three biggest churches in the the two or three biggest churches in the the two or three biggest churches in the country right that's a name that is country right that's a name that is country right that's a name that is completely dropped off the radar got completely dropped off the radar got completely dropped off the radar got about I haven't heard about in years about I haven't heard about in years about I haven't heard about in years yeah 100% yeah yeah Rex humbard Oral yeah 100% yeah yeah Rex humbard Oral yeah 100% yeah yeah Rex humbard Oral Roberts these were the big names for a Roberts these were the big names for a Roberts these were the big names for a very short period of time and he had the very short period of time and he had the very short period of time and he had the Cathedral of tomorrow Cathedral of tomorrow Cathedral of tomorrow right that was the name of the church in right that was the name of the church in right that was the name of the church in Act Act Act and but aside from him and chriswell in and but aside from him and chriswell in and but aside from him and chriswell in Dallas and a couple other places you Dallas and a couple other places you Dallas and a couple other places you could go when I was young in the 1970s could go when I was young in the 1970s could go when I was young in the 1970s to early 80s you could go to a very to early 80s you could go to a very to early 80s you could go to a very large well churched North American city large well churched North American city large well churched North American city and not find a single Church of over a and not find a single Church of over a and not find a single Church of over a thousand people true right yeah now you thousand people true right yeah now you thousand people true right yeah now you go to a large Well church City and go to a large Well church City and go to a large Well church City and you're gonna find multiple churches over you're gonna find multiple churches over you're gonna find multiple churches over 5,000 and even over 5,000 and even over 5,000 and even over 10,000 so back in the day when I was

10,000 so back in the day when I was 10,000 so back in the day when I was younger I could go to a church an younger I could go to a church an younger I could go to a church an average siiz Church of 75 and a the average siiz Church of 75 and a the average siiz Church of 75 and a the biggest church in town of 750 and if biggest church in town of 750 and if biggest church in town of 750 and if they were in the same denomination they they were in the same denomination they they were in the same denomination they were singing the same songs out of the were singing the same songs out of the were singing the same songs out of the same hym book they had the same same hym book they had the same same hym book they had the same missionaries on the wall they ran the missionaries on the wall they ran the missionaries on the wall they ran the same children's departments and women's same children's departments and women's same children's departments and women's departments and Men Department there was departments and Men Department there was departments and Men Department there was almost no difference except for the almost no difference except for the almost no difference except for the number of people in the room there was a number of people in the room there was a number of people in the room there was a real real there was real similarity real real there was real similarity real real there was real similarity there and so they would even like do a a there and so they would even like do a a there and so they would even like do a a Pulpit swap between an average siiz Pulpit swap between an average siiz Pulpit swap between an average siiz Church 75 and the biggest church in town Church 75 and the biggest church in town Church 75 and the biggest church in town but as churches started getting bigger but as churches started getting bigger but as churches started getting bigger again the rise of the suburbs the rise again the rise of the suburbs the rise again the rise of the suburbs the rise of the mega church and you start of the mega church and you start of the mega church and you start cracking the Thousand 5,000 10,000 cracking the Thousand 5,000 10,000 cracking the Thousand 5,000 10,000 barrier at that point you have to learn barrier at that point you have to learn barrier at that point you have to learn a whole bunch of new skills to be able a whole bunch of new skills to be able a whole bunch of new skills to be able to manage a a an organization of that to manage a a an organization of that to manage a a an organization of that size and as they learned those skills size and as they learned those skills size and as they learned those skills they would then share them as I said they would then share them as I said they would then share them as I said earlier their heart of generosity they earlier their heart of generosity they earlier their heart of generosity they would share them through their books would share them through their books would share them through their books through their podcasts through their through their podcasts through their through their podcasts through their articles with every other Pastor a articles with every other Pastor a articles with every other Pastor a pastor of a church of four or 500 would pastor of a church of four or 500 would pastor of a church of four or 500 would hear that and go oh I can do most of hear that and go oh I can do most of hear that and go oh I can do most of that but a pastor of a church of 40 or that but a pastor of a church of 40 or that but a pastor of a church of 40 or 50 would hear that and go I'm going to 50 would hear that and go I'm going to 50 would hear that and go I'm going to try it but none of it try it but none of it try it but none of it worked because the Gap was now too wide worked because the Gap was now too wide worked because the Gap was now too wide and so the midsize churches were getting and so the midsize churches were getting and so the midsize churches were getting benefit and were growing but the typical benefit and were growing but the typical benefit and were growing but the typical small church was getting no benefit out small church was getting no benefit out small church was getting no benefit out of it whatsoever and is starting to feel of it whatsoever and is starting to feel of it whatsoever and is starting to feel like I did well I must be stupid cuz my like I did well I must be stupid cuz my like I did well I must be stupid cuz my friend of a church of four or 500 he friend of a church of four or 500 he friend of a church of four or 500 he went to that conference took seven

went to that conference took seven went to that conference took seven things from implemented them in his things from implemented them in his things from implemented them in his church and it worked like Gang Busters I church and it worked like Gang Busters I church and it worked like Gang Busters I took those same things and brought it to took those same things and brought it to took those same things and brought it to my church of 75 and none of it worked I my church of 75 and none of it worked I my church of 75 and none of it worked I must I must be stupid so here's my word must I must be stupid so here's my word must I must be stupid so here's my word to small Church Pastors in those to small Church Pastors in those to small Church Pastors in those situations what they're teaching they're situations what they're teaching they're situations what they're teaching they're not not not wrong but you're not stupid what they're saying fits their stupid what they're saying fits their context but because of the big num context but because of the big num context but because of the big num numerical gap between the biggest church numerical gap between the biggest church numerical gap between the biggest church in town and the average Church in town in town and the average Church in town in town and the average Church in town that numerical Gap has now created an that numerical Gap has now created an that numerical Gap has now created an environment that is very seldom taken environment that is very seldom taken environment that is very seldom taken into account which is where my Ministry into account which is where my Ministry into account which is where my Ministry comes from now we need small Church comes from now we need small Church comes from now we need small Church specific tools that only work in small specific tools that only work in small specific tools that only work in small churches because the gap between the churches because the gap between the churches because the gap between the small and the big has grown and it's an small and the big has grown and it's an small and the big has grown and it's an unintended byproduct of good things that unintended byproduct of good things that unintended byproduct of good things that have happened but we now need to have happened but we now need to have happened but we now need to recognize what these unintended recognize what these unintended recognize what these unintended byproducts are so we can deal with them byproducts are so we can deal with them byproducts are so we can deal with them correctly so you and I were in Germany correctly so you and I were in Germany correctly so you and I were in Germany together earlier this year and we spoke together earlier this year and we spoke together earlier this year and we spoke to a pretty large crowd I mean there to a pretty large crowd I mean there to a pretty large crowd I mean there were 7,000 people uh legit I mean from were 7,000 people uh legit I mean from were 7,000 people uh legit I mean from what I could tell and I kind of pictured what I could tell and I kind of pictured what I could tell and I kind of pictured a bowl but if you just think of a a bowl but if you just think of a a bowl but if you just think of a conference room that went on I think conference room that went on I think conference room that went on I think forever Carl H and when you see 7,000 forever Carl H and when you see 7,000 forever Carl H and when you see 7,000 people sitting there all on a flat floor people sitting there all on a flat floor people sitting there all on a flat floor looking up at these big screens it was looking up at these big screens it was looking up at these big screens it was something I would love to know um what something I would love to know um what something I would love to know um what that does for somebody because I know we that does for somebody because I know we that does for somebody because I know we talked about that a little bit in the talked about that a little bit in the talked about that a little bit in the green room or a breakfast one day you

green room or a breakfast one day you green room or a breakfast one day you know when you're used to speaking to know when you're used to speaking to know when you're used to speaking to 15200 people and you've done conferences 15200 people and you've done conferences 15200 people and you've done conferences before but you get in front of before but you get in front of before but you get in front of 7,000 people what did that do to to your 7,000 people what did that do to to your 7,000 people what did that do to to your head what does what does that do to you head what does what does that do to you head what does what does that do to you yeah that's a great question yeah first yeah that's a great question yeah first yeah that's a great question yeah first of all it's very accelerating the the of all it's very accelerating the the of all it's very accelerating the the the adrenaline is through the roof um the adrenaline is through the roof um the adrenaline is through the roof um you know um maybe not quite as much for you know um maybe not quite as much for you know um maybe not quite as much for you because you're in in front of bigger you because you're in in front of bigger you because you're in in front of bigger crowds but even for both of us that was crowds but even for both of us that was crowds but even for both of us that was a big room right I'd be lying if I said a big room right I'd be lying if I said a big room right I'd be lying if I said oh yeah it was just like another day oh yeah it was just like another day oh yeah it was just like another day yeah sure there is something yeah sure there is something yeah sure there is something intoxicating about that yeah so the intoxicating about that yeah so the intoxicating about that yeah so the adrenaline is great which means it's a adrenaline is great which means it's a adrenaline is great which means it's a lot of fun to do uh secondly uh it's lot of fun to do uh secondly uh it's lot of fun to do uh secondly uh it's great to be able to speak in one time to great to be able to speak in one time to great to be able to speak in one time to more people than I will speak to for the more people than I will speak to for the more people than I will speak to for the entire rest of the year combined and I'm entire rest of the year combined and I'm entire rest of the year combined and I'm going to 35 other conferences this year going to 35 other conferences this year going to 35 other conferences this year but that one room probably had more but that one room probably had more but that one room probably had more people in it than the other 35 combined people in it than the other 35 combined people in it than the other 35 combined so you get a lot done real so you get a lot done real so you get a lot done real quick the second thing on on the quick the second thing on on the quick the second thing on on the negative that occurred to me was negative that occurred to me was negative that occurred to me was this this is a drug that I could get this this is a drug that I could get this this is a drug that I could get addicted to really quickly if I wasn't addicted to really quickly if I wasn't addicted to really quickly if I wasn't careful uh that that adrenaline I I see careful uh that that adrenaline I I see careful uh that that adrenaline I I see how people can get hooked on that how people can get hooked on that how people can get hooked on that adrenaline and why we need to be very adrenaline and why we need to be very adrenaline and why we need to be very careful about it the second thing that careful about it the second thing that careful about it the second thing that occurred to me was I was standing on a occurred to me was I was standing on a occurred to me was I was standing on a stage and the front row was farther back stage and the front row was farther back stage and the front row was farther back from me than the back row is in my home from me than the back row is in my home from me than the back row is in my home church I hadn't thought about that but church I hadn't thought about that but church I hadn't thought about that but you're right it was yeah and in fact the

you're right it was yeah and in fact the you're right it was yeah and in fact the stage itself was about as high as the stage itself was about as high as the stage itself was about as high as the ceiling is in my church wow so it was ceiling is in my church wow so it was ceiling is in my church wow so it was almost like going on the roof of my almost like going on the roof of my almost like going on the roof of my church and pring everybody past the back church and pring everybody past the back church and pring everybody past the back row to be able to talk to them and as row to be able to talk to them and as row to be able to talk to them and as I'm speaking to them I am you know I'm speaking to them I am you know I'm speaking to them I am you know looking at people and there's less than looking at people and there's less than looking at people and there's less than 10% of the room is looking at me 90% of 10% of the room is looking at me 90% of 10% of the room is looking at me 90% of the room is looking at my image on a the room is looking at my image on a the room is looking at my image on a screen next to me correct and there's screen next to me correct and there's screen next to me correct and there's been studies done in the last few years been studies done in the last few years been studies done in the last few years since pandemic about the kind of since pandemic about the kind of since pandemic about the kind of conversation we're having right now conversation we're having right now conversation we're having right now where it's asynchronous we're not in the where it's asynchronous we're not in the where it's asynchronous we're not in the same room we're not actually looking at same room we're not actually looking at same room we're not actually looking at each other in the face we're trying to each other in the face we're trying to each other in the face we're trying to overcome some of that asynchronicity as overcome some of that asynchronicity as overcome some of that asynchronicity as much as we can but it actually causes a much as we can but it actually causes a much as we can but it actually causes a change in how we perceive each other and change in how we perceive each other and change in how we perceive each other and how we communicate and how we receive how we communicate and how we receive how we communicate and how we receive that information and so that that information and so that that information and so that asynchronous communication was a little asynchronous communication was a little asynchronous communication was a little uncomfortable for me and I I hunger for uncomfortable for me and I I hunger for uncomfortable for me and I I hunger for for being in a room where when I'm for being in a room where when I'm for being in a room where when I'm looking at people they're actually uh looking at people they're actually uh looking at people they're actually uh looking at me so it had some buzz it had looking at me so it had some buzz it had looking at me so it had some buzz it had some opportunity but I also immediately some opportunity but I also immediately some opportunity but I also immediately saw where some of the potential dangers saw where some of the potential dangers saw where some of the potential dangers would be and I'm G to tell you right up would be and I'm G to tell you right up would be and I'm G to tell you right up front Carrie I am not immune to those front Carrie I am not immune to those front Carrie I am not immune to those dangers so pastors who do speak to that dangers so pastors who do speak to that dangers so pastors who do speak to that size of a group on a consistent basis size of a group on a consistent basis size of a group on a consistent basis and who stay strong spiritually and and who stay strong spiritually and and who stay strong spiritually and morally and relationally and who morally and relationally and who morally and relationally and who maintain their integrity I have the maintain their integrity I have the maintain their integrity I have the highest respect for because that kind of highest respect for because that kind of highest respect for because that kind of adrenaline that kind of drug can take

adrenaline that kind of drug can take adrenaline that kind of drug can take you down fast yes and I am not immune you down fast yes and I am not immune you down fast yes and I am not immune from that drug either you know it helps from that drug either you know it helps from that drug either you know it helps when things grow but you've got I'm I'm when things grow but you've got I'm I'm when things grow but you've got I'm I'm constantly sifting my motivation and constantly sifting my motivation and constantly sifting my motivation and hopefully sifting it more every year you hopefully sifting it more every year you hopefully sifting it more every year you know what I mean and and yeah but 7,000 know what I mean and and yeah but 7,000 know what I mean and and yeah but 7,000 people in one room at one time that's a people in one room at one time that's a people in one room at one time that's a thrill okay thank you for the honesty I thrill okay thank you for the honesty I thrill okay thank you for the honesty I appreciate it I felt it too and yet I appreciate it I felt it too and yet I appreciate it I felt it too and yet I felt an incredible too it was a it was a felt an incredible too it was a it was a felt an incredible too it was a it was a great event it was a really good event great event it was a really good event great event it was a really good event like and they they loved your talk I like and they they loved your talk I like and they they loved your talk I think we connected okay in my talk uh it think we connected okay in my talk uh it think we connected okay in my talk uh it was uh it was it was a lot of fun to do was uh it was it was a lot of fun to do was uh it was it was a lot of fun to do that event so thank you GLS Germany for that event so thank you GLS Germany for that event so thank you GLS Germany for that we really appreciate that that we really appreciate that that we really appreciate that absolutely um so I want to get into some absolutely um so I want to get into some absolutely um so I want to get into some sign signs maybe that your church is sign signs maybe that your church is sign signs maybe that your church is struggling with an unhealthy obsession struggling with an unhealthy obsession struggling with an unhealthy obsession over numbers or growth or whatever over numbers or growth or whatever over numbers or growth or whatever because and this is true not just of because and this is true not just of because and this is true not just of small churches you you could have a small churches you you could have a small churches you you could have a church of 5,000 that's got an unhealthy church of 5,000 that's got an unhealthy church of 5,000 that's got an unhealthy obsession with growth or a church of 50 obsession with growth or a church of 50 obsession with growth or a church of 50 where the pastor just can't rest because where the pastor just can't rest because where the pastor just can't rest because you want to be 60 by Christmas you know you want to be 60 by Christmas you know you want to be 60 by Christmas you know or whatever it or whatever it or whatever it is yeah the first D yeah yeah the first is yeah the first D yeah yeah the first is yeah the first D yeah yeah the first the first sign is the first sign is the first sign is comparison um you you if you are comparison um you you if you are comparison um you you if you are constantly comparing your ministry to constantly comparing your ministry to constantly comparing your ministry to other Ministries either you will be other Ministries either you will be other Ministries either you will be bigger than them and filled with pride bigger than them and filled with pride bigger than them and filled with pride or smaller than them and filled with or smaller than them and filled with or smaller than them and filled with shame and neither Pride or shame is the shame and neither Pride or shame is the shame and neither Pride or shame is the basis for healthy Ministry not for you basis for healthy Ministry not for you basis for healthy Ministry not for you and not for your church so comparison and not for your church so comparison and not for your church so comparison will kill um that's the thing we've got

will kill um that's the thing we've got will kill um that's the thing we've got to be very very careful about uh there to be very very careful about uh there to be very very careful about uh there was uh I remember a few years ago I was uh I remember a few years ago I was uh I remember a few years ago I talked to somebody who had a smaller talked to somebody who had a smaller talked to somebody who had a smaller church and they were running about 150 church and they were running about 150 church and they were running about 150 or so and H A friend of theirs who was or so and H A friend of theirs who was or so and H A friend of theirs who was pastoring a mega church he was pastoring a mega church he was pastoring a mega church he was complaining I can't get seem to get it complaining I can't get seem to get it complaining I can't get seem to get it above 150 and he said and he told me he above 150 and he said and he told me he above 150 and he said and he told me he reminded me you realize at 150 you're reminded me you realize at 150 you're reminded me you realize at 150 you're bigger than like 85% of the churches in bigger than like 85% of the churches in bigger than like 85% of the churches in the country and I felt a lot better and the country and I felt a lot better and the country and I felt a lot better and I thought you know that's not a great I thought you know that's not a great I thought you know that's not a great way to make us feel better that I'm way to make us feel better that I'm way to make us feel better that I'm better right better right better right that it was it was it it was the that it was it was it it was the that it was it was it it was the comparison thing and that's that's oh comparison thing and that's that's oh comparison thing and that's that's oh I'm well I'm not I'm not great but I'm I'm well I'm not I'm not great but I'm I'm well I'm not I'm not great but I'm better than them it Jesus told a parable better than them it Jesus told a parable better than them it Jesus told a parable about that kind of comparison that about that kind of comparison that about that kind of comparison that wasn't really all that good and yet we wasn't really all that good and yet we wasn't really all that good and yet we do it ah far too often so the comparison do it ah far too often so the comparison do it ah far too often so the comparison if we're constantly comparing with if we're constantly comparing with if we're constantly comparing with others that's a real dangerous sign others that's a real dangerous sign others that's a real dangerous sign secondly if someone asks you how's your secondly if someone asks you how's your secondly if someone asks you how's your church going and you don't don't know church going and you don't don't know church going and you don't don't know how to answer it non-n numerically how to answer it non-n numerically how to answer it non-n numerically you've got a you've got a you've got a problem right so here's here's what I problem right so here's here's what I problem right so here's here's what I actually tell my fellow small Church actually tell my fellow small Church actually tell my fellow small Church pastors because they'll go to pastors because they'll go to pastors because they'll go to conferences and they dread going because conferences and they dread going because conferences and they dread going because somebody's gonna ask them how's your somebody's gonna ask them how's your somebody's gonna ask them how's your church going it's like what do I tell church going it's like what do I tell church going it's like what do I tell them you know we're still the same size them you know we're still the same size them you know we're still the same size as last year so here's what I tell them as last year so here's what I tell them as last year so here's what I tell them before you go preload your mind with two before you go preload your mind with two before you go preload your mind with two or three life transformation stories or three life transformation stories or three life transformation stories because you won't remember them on the because you won't remember them on the because you won't remember them on the off the top of your head on the spot off the top of your head on the spot off the top of your head on the spot when they ask you be ready think through when they ask you be ready think through when they ask you be ready think through okay what's happened in our church in okay what's happened in our church in okay what's happened in our church in the last few months about that person the last few months about that person the last few months about that person who came to Christ about that person who who came to Christ about that person who who came to Christ about that person who left the church and came back again

left the church and came back again left the church and came back again about a marriage that was on the Rocks about a marriage that was on the Rocks about a marriage that was on the Rocks but your your divorce recovery class is but your your divorce recovery class is but your your divorce recovery class is really working and they've come back to really working and they've come back to really working and they've come back to to to each other again come up with two to to each other again come up with two to to each other again come up with two or three stories don't portray any or three stories don't portray any or three stories don't portray any confidences obviously in those stories confidences obviously in those stories confidences obviously in those stories but when people ask you how's your but when people ask you how's your but when people ask you how's your church running you can say let me tell church running you can say let me tell church running you can say let me tell you about so and you about so and you about so and so and and and that's there there's a so and and and that's there there's a so and and and that's there there's a power in story that I have the last 5 to power in story that I have the last 5 to power in story that I have the last 5 to 10 years I've really come to appreciate 10 years I've really come to appreciate 10 years I've really come to appreciate and I'm doing more study on the power of and I'm doing more study on the power of and I'm doing more study on the power of story on the human mind there's a reason story on the human mind there's a reason story on the human mind there's a reason the Bible says that Jesus never taught the Bible says that Jesus never taught the Bible says that Jesus never taught without telling a parable without without telling a parable without without telling a parable without telling a story and I think we have telling a story and I think we have telling a story and I think we have swung the pendulum too far in the last swung the pendulum too far in the last swung the pendulum too far in the last 20 to 30 years where we've become 20 to 30 years where we've become 20 to 30 years where we've become obsessed with obsessed with obsessed with Statistics and we need to swing it back Statistics and we need to swing it back Statistics and we need to swing it back a little bit more towards story because a little bit more towards story because a little bit more towards story because not every church will have statistics not every church will have statistics not every church will have statistics they can be proud of but every healthy they can be proud of but every healthy they can be proud of but every healthy church can have a great story to church can have a great story to church can have a great story to tell you also make an argument that I tell you also make an argument that I tell you also make an argument that I thought was really interesting you argue thought was really interesting you argue thought was really interesting you argue that Christian celebrity culture that Christian celebrity culture that Christian celebrity culture basically guarantees moral failure basically guarantees moral failure basically guarantees moral failure that's a that's a big statement and if I that's a that's a big statement and if I that's a that's a big statement and if I got that wrong you want to Nuance it got that wrong you want to Nuance it got that wrong you want to Nuance it please do let you you quoted the title please do let you you quoted the title please do let you you quoted the title of the of the of the chapter guarantees failure yeah it does chapter guarantees failure yeah it does chapter guarantees failure yeah it does the the full title the chapter is the the full title the chapter is the the full title the chapter is inevitable how the Christian celebrity inevitable how the Christian celebrity inevitable how the Christian celebrity culture guarantees moral failure and yes culture guarantees moral failure and yes culture guarantees moral failure and yes I sat and stared at that title a long

I sat and stared at that title a long I sat and stared at that title a long time before I decided to actually put it time before I decided to actually put it time before I decided to actually put it in the book because that's a big swing in the book because that's a big swing in the book because that's a big swing but I stand by it um I don't believe but I stand by it um I don't believe but I stand by it um I don't believe that becoming a celebrity guarantees that becoming a celebrity guarantees that becoming a celebrity guarantees moral failure as I said earlier there moral failure as I said earlier there moral failure as I said earlier there are pastors who have big churches and are pastors who have big churches and are pastors who have big churches and big platforms who have maintained their big platforms who have maintained their big platforms who have maintained their integrity and I have massive admiration integrity and I have massive admiration integrity and I have massive admiration for that because I believe that's very for that because I believe that's very for that because I believe that's very difficult to do so it does not moral difficult to do so it does not moral difficult to do so it does not moral failure but the Christian celebrity failure but the Christian celebrity failure but the Christian celebrity culture does ah in other words this is culture does ah in other words this is culture does ah in other words this is going to keep spitting out moral failure going to keep spitting out moral failure going to keep spitting out moral failure yes when you are constantly yes when you are constantly yes when you are constantly idealizing big microphones on tall idealizing big microphones on tall idealizing big microphones on tall stages under Bright Lights you will stages under Bright Lights you will stages under Bright Lights you will attract people who want a big microphone attract people who want a big microphone attract people who want a big microphone on a tall stage under Bright Lights you on a tall stage under Bright Lights you on a tall stage under Bright Lights you will attract will attract will attract narcissists because that's what narcissists because that's what narcissists because that's what narcissists are drawn to they want that narcissists are drawn to they want that narcissists are drawn to they want that so if you create a celebrity culture you so if you create a celebrity culture you so if you create a celebrity culture you will attract people who want to be a will attract people who want to be a will attract people who want to be a celebrity and if celebrity as a celebrity and if celebrity as a celebrity and if celebrity as a byproduct of good Ministry is one thing byproduct of good Ministry is one thing byproduct of good Ministry is one thing but celebrity as a goal is really but celebrity as a goal is really but celebrity as a goal is really dangerous I think that's very well dangerous I think that's very well dangerous I think that's very well phrased and you know to go back to the phrased and you know to go back to the phrased and you know to go back to the drug metaphor I don't have really drug metaphor I don't have really drug metaphor I don't have really experience with drugs but there have experience with drugs but there have experience with drugs but there have been times where things have gone really been times where things have gone really been times where things have gone really really well we we're in a growth season really well we we're in a growth season really well we we're in a growth season that could have been at the church that that could have been at the church that that could have been at the church that could have been you know here in what could have been you know here in what could have been you know here in what I've done for the last 10 years where I've done for the last 10 years where I've done for the last 10 years where you just look at the numbers and you you just look at the numbers and you you just look at the numbers and you just can't believe them and I feel a

just can't believe them and I feel a just can't believe them and I feel a rush sometimes and I'm like oh I wonder rush sometimes and I'm like oh I wonder rush sometimes and I'm like oh I wonder if that's what drugs feel like because if that's what drugs feel like because if that's what drugs feel like because it is like a drug and I can see how you it is like a drug and I can see how you it is like a drug and I can see how you get addicted and I just want to Echo get addicted and I just want to Echo get addicted and I just want to Echo what you said you know I got a lot of what you said you know I got a lot of what you said you know I got a lot of friends who lead large organizations friends who lead large organizations friends who lead large organizations large Ministries who have not bowed the large Ministries who have not bowed the large Ministries who have not bowed the knee who have not who have maintained knee who have not who have maintained knee who have not who have maintained their integrity and I think that's their integrity and I think that's their integrity and I think that's really really admirable because it is a really really admirable because it is a really really admirable because it is a a big challenge so um what's a Better a big challenge so um what's a Better a big challenge so um what's a Better Way Forward Carl like when you think Way Forward Carl like when you think Way Forward Carl like when you think about how to think about yourselves about how to think about yourselves about how to think about yourselves because I think you're right Ministry is because I think you're right Ministry is because I think you're right Ministry is discouraging enough leadership's discouraging enough leadership's discouraging enough leadership's discouraging in and of itself you have discouraging in and of itself you have discouraging in and of itself you have good seasons and Bad seasons so what are good seasons and Bad seasons so what are good seasons and Bad seasons so what are some pointers toward Health as you look some pointers toward Health as you look some pointers toward Health as you look toward the toward the toward the future yeah um I've been in Ministry future yeah um I've been in Ministry future yeah um I've been in Ministry about 50 years and I've about 50 years and I've about 50 years and I've seen three kind of big trends come seen three kind of big trends come seen three kind of big trends come through through through and depending on your and your listeners and depending on your and your listeners and depending on your and your listeners background denomination and experience background denomination and experience background denomination and experience you'll experience these in different you'll experience these in different you'll experience these in different ways but here's how I experienced it in ways but here's how I experienced it in ways but here's how I experienced it in the 60s and 70s there was the Revival uh the 60s and 70s there was the Revival uh the 60s and 70s there was the Revival uh wave that came through we were going to wave that came through we were going to wave that came through we were going to fix our church by having a Revival again fix our church by having a Revival again fix our church by having a Revival again a renewal of God's spirit and so we're a renewal of God's spirit and so we're a renewal of God's spirit and so we're we're going to pray you have people like we're going to pray you have people like we're going to pray you have people like Larry Lee and so on who came through and Larry Lee and so on who came through and Larry Lee and so on who came through and it was all about prayer and it was all it was all about prayer and it was all it was all about prayer and it was all about worship and we're there's going to about worship and we're there's going to about worship and we're there's going to be a Revival and that's what's going to be a Revival and that's what's going to be a Revival and that's what's going to bring people back and then in the 1980s bring people back and then in the 1980s bring people back and then in the 1980s and 90s and into the O's it became and 90s and into the O's it became and 90s and into the O's it became institutionalized and then we got to the institutionalized and then we got to the institutionalized and then we got to the management phase and that was when management phase and that was when management phase and that was when everybody was reading the management everybody was reading the management everybody was reading the management type books and you know I can go through

type books and you know I can go through type books and you know I can go through the list of all those folks and I the list of all those folks and I the list of all those folks and I learned a lot from them as well just learned a lot from them as well just learned a lot from them as well just like I did from some of the folks in the like I did from some of the folks in the like I did from some of the folks in the revivalist phase um and now we're not in revivalist phase um and now we're not in revivalist phase um and now we're not in the management phase anymore now uh the management phase anymore now uh the management phase anymore now uh we're in the activist we're in the activist we're in the activist phase and in the last 10 or so years uh phase and in the last 10 or so years uh phase and in the last 10 or so years uh everybody's an activist about something everybody's an activist about something everybody's an activist about something and everybody's wanting the pastor to and everybody's wanting the pastor to and everybody's wanting the pastor to fly their flag sometimes literally right fly their flag sometimes literally right fly their flag sometimes literally right uh Mega on the right uh black lives uh Mega on the right uh black lives uh Mega on the right uh black lives matter on the left right you you pick matter on the left right you you pick matter on the left right you you pick pick your flag and fly it and it's about pick your flag and fly it and it's about pick your flag and fly it and it's about activism and now activism is going to activism and now activism is going to activism and now activism is going to get us to where if we just elect the get us to where if we just elect the get us to where if we just elect the right person or if we just get behind right person or if we just get behind right person or if we just get behind the right cause that's GNA fix what's the right cause that's GNA fix what's the right cause that's GNA fix what's wrong with us so at this point right now wrong with us so at this point right now wrong with us so at this point right now the idea that you're gonna fix your the idea that you're gonna fix your the idea that you're gonna fix your church by better management feels kind church by better management feels kind church by better management feels kind of old and tired and because that the of old and tired and because that the of old and tired and because that the height of that has waned and the old height of that has waned and the old height of that has waned and the old school folks want to go back to the school folks want to go back to the school folks want to go back to the revivalist phase and say we we got to revivalist phase and say we we got to revivalist phase and say we we got to have a renewed Revival now do I want have a renewed Revival now do I want have a renewed Revival now do I want better management yes do I want a better management yes do I want a better management yes do I want a Revival of God's spirit yes do I want to Revival of God's spirit yes do I want to Revival of God's spirit yes do I want to have uh to activate people towards good have uh to activate people towards good have uh to activate people towards good causes yes all of those three things can causes yes all of those three things can causes yes all of those three things can be used in the right way but if you have be used in the right way but if you have be used in the right way but if you have any of those and you are really pushing any of those and you are really pushing any of those and you are really pushing them but you aren't a person of them but you aren't a person of them but you aren't a person of Integrity none of the rest of those Integrity none of the rest of those Integrity none of the rest of those things are going to matter so instead of things are going to matter so instead of things are going to matter so instead of saying we've got to have just a reval saying we've got to have just a reval saying we've got to have just a reval again or we've got to have uh better again or we've got to have uh better again or we've got to have uh better management again or we've got to get management again or we've got to get management again or we've got to get more votes on our side again to fix the more votes on our side again to fix the more votes on our side again to fix the church here's the way I I want us to church here's the way I I want us to church here's the way I I want us to look at it dur the two chapters where my look at it dur the two chapters where my look at it dur the two chapters where my book turns are entitled discipleship

book turns are entitled discipleship book turns are entitled discipleship fixes fixes fixes everything and integrity is the new everything and integrity is the new everything and integrity is the new competence I think we need to have a competence I think we need to have a competence I think we need to have a two-pronged approach we need to double two-pronged approach we need to double two-pronged approach we need to double down on down on down on discipleship and we need to Triple down discipleship and we need to Triple down discipleship and we need to Triple down on Integrity because if you look around on Integrity because if you look around on Integrity because if you look around right now and you ask any person who right now and you ask any person who right now and you ask any person who has left the church and they might use a has left the church and they might use a has left the church and they might use a phrase like exvangelical or phrase like exvangelical or phrase like exvangelical or deconstructing whatever term they're deconstructing whatever term they're deconstructing whatever term they're going to use doesn't matter if they have going to use doesn't matter if they have going to use doesn't matter if they have left the church you will not find a left the church you will not find a left the church you will not find a single person who says yeah you know I single person who says yeah you know I single person who says yeah you know I was going to this small church and they was going to this small church and they was going to this small church and they just couldn't get the quality of their just couldn't get the quality of their just couldn't get the quality of their videos right it was just so cheesy I videos right it was just so cheesy I videos right it was just so cheesy I didn't know what to believe so I left didn't know what to believe so I left didn't know what to believe so I left the church and I don't believe in Jesus the church and I don't believe in Jesus the church and I don't believe in Jesus anymore nobody has left the church anymore nobody has left the church anymore nobody has left the church because of our lack of technical because of our lack of technical because of our lack of technical Excellence but you'll find a whole lot Excellence but you'll find a whole lot Excellence but you'll find a whole lot who have left because we were not people who have left because we were not people who have left because we were not people of our of our of our word we're losing them because of our word we're losing them because of our word we're losing them because of our lack of integ integrity and on the other lack of integ integrity and on the other lack of integ integrity and on the other side we're losing people because we side we're losing people because we side we're losing people because we didn't disciple them into maturity and didn't disciple them into maturity and didn't disciple them into maturity and their faith remained their faith remained their faith remained shallow and so it didn't take root and shallow and so it didn't take root and shallow and so it didn't take root and so stopping going during pandemic I just so stopping going during pandemic I just so stopping going during pandemic I just never bothered showing back up again never bothered showing back up again never bothered showing back up again because well I wasn't getting anything because well I wasn't getting anything because well I wasn't getting anything out of it anyway so we have got to get out of it anyway so we have got to get out of it anyway so we have got to get back to discipleship again and we have back to discipleship again and we have back to discipleship again and we have to be people of Integrity again because to be people of Integrity again because to be people of Integrity again because quite frankly we've got a whole bunch of quite frankly we've got a whole bunch of quite frankly we've got a whole bunch of loss of trust that we need to earn back loss of trust that we need to earn back loss of trust that we need to earn back again and the only way to earn trust again and the only way to earn trust again and the only way to earn trust back again is not to get our technical back again is not to get our technical back again is not to get our technical excellence in place is to be people of excellence in place is to be people of excellence in place is to be people of Integrity again so what do you do with Integrity again so what do you do with Integrity again so what do you do with numbers um let's say talk to the pastor

numbers um let's say talk to the pastor numbers um let's say talk to the pastor the leader whose numbers aren't moving the leader whose numbers aren't moving the leader whose numbers aren't moving you know you've been 50 people for the you know you've been 50 people for the you know you've been 50 people for the Last 5 Years few people have moved away Last 5 Years few people have moved away Last 5 Years few people have moved away few people have taken the place maybe few people have taken the place maybe few people have taken the place maybe there's not a lot of baptisms um but there's not a lot of baptisms um but there's not a lot of baptisms um but you're not seeing quote progress if you you're not seeing quote progress if you you're not seeing quote progress if you want to call it that or feel free to want to call it that or feel free to want to call it that or feel free to substitute your own phase what do you do substitute your own phase what do you do substitute your own phase what do you do with that do you just ignore those and with that do you just ignore those and with that do you just ignore those and continue on do you pay attention to continue on do you pay attention to continue on do you pay attention to numbers what do what do you do with numbers what do what do you do with numbers what do what do you do with numbers yeah numbers are helpful to numbers yeah numbers are helpful to numbers yeah numbers are helpful to inform us but they should never Define inform us but they should never Define inform us but they should never Define us so uh that's one of the great us so uh that's one of the great us so uh that's one of the great blessings that the church growth blessings that the church growth blessings that the church growth movement brought is let's take a look at movement brought is let's take a look at movement brought is let's take a look at numbers that do matter one of the numbers that do matter one of the numbers that do matter one of the unintended negative consequences of that unintended negative consequences of that unintended negative consequences of that is now we're looking at a whole bunch of is now we're looking at a whole bunch of is now we're looking at a whole bunch of numbers that don't necessarily matter as numbers that don't necessarily matter as numbers that don't necessarily matter as well so let's use number that inform us well so let's use number that inform us well so let's use number that inform us and not Define us one of the things that and not Define us one of the things that and not Define us one of the things that you've written about a lot in the last you've written about a lot in the last you've written about a lot in the last couple years is let's not measure couple years is let's not measure couple years is let's not measure engagement as much as we let's not engagement as much as we let's not engagement as much as we let's not measure attendance as much as we measure measure attendance as much as we measure measure attendance as much as we measure engagement right now that's true from a engagement right now that's true from a engagement right now that's true from a big church standpoint not just big church standpoint not just big church standpoint not just attendance but engagement in a small attendance but engagement in a small attendance but engagement in a small Church however engagement isn't the Church however engagement isn't the Church however engagement isn't the issue and a lot of small churches quite issue and a lot of small churches quite issue and a lot of small churches quite frankly people are way too engaged frankly people are way too engaged frankly people are way too engaged they're all on each other's business all they're all on each other's business all they're all on each other's business all the time yeah yeah that's fair so in a the time yeah yeah that's fair so in a the time yeah yeah that's fair so in a small church it's not so much about as small church it's not so much about as small church it's not so much about as everybody engaged in in the life of the everybody engaged in in the life of the everybody engaged in in the life of the church but are we having an impact are church but are we having an impact are church but are we having an impact are we influencing our community are we we influencing our community are we we influencing our community are we making a difference so we need to ask making a difference so we need to ask making a difference so we need to ask questions is and the smaller the questions is and the smaller the questions is and the smaller the churches the more this is true here's churches the more this is true here's churches the more this is true here's the deal the bigger churches there's the deal the bigger churches there's the deal the bigger churches there's something called the uh the law of large something called the uh the law of large something called the uh the law of large numbers and the law of large numbers

numbers and the law of large numbers numbers and the law of large numbers States the larger the group is the more States the larger the group is the more States the larger the group is the more predictably it behaves so if you've got predictably it behaves so if you've got predictably it behaves so if you've got a church or an organization of any type a church or an organization of any type a church or an organization of any type in the thousands of people or into the in the thousands of people or into the in the thousands of people or into the tens of thousands metrics really are tens of thousands metrics really are tens of thousands metrics really are very helpful to inform you because a 10 very helpful to inform you because a 10 very helpful to inform you because a 10 to 15% change up or down down annually to 15% change up or down down annually to 15% change up or down down annually can mean hundreds or thousands of people can mean hundreds or thousands of people can mean hundreds or thousands of people but an an typical size Church of 50 and but an an typical size Church of 50 and but an an typical size Church of 50 and that's about where the average size that's about where the average size that's about where the average size Church in North America is right now 50 Church in North America is right now 50 Church in North America is right now 50 in a typical Church of 50 your numbers in a typical Church of 50 your numbers in a typical Church of 50 your numbers can vary by a 100% from week to week let can vary by a 100% from week to week let can vary by a 100% from week to week let alone 15% so the metrics don't really alone 15% so the metrics don't really alone 15% so the metrics don't really inform us as much so what we need to do inform us as much so what we need to do inform us as much so what we need to do is we need to look around at the is we need to look around at the is we need to look around at the non-numerical markers of church Health non-numerical markers of church Health non-numerical markers of church Health as an example are people signing up to as an example are people signing up to as an example are people signing up to help out in Ministry teams or are they help out in Ministry teams or are they help out in Ministry teams or are they fighting each other for titles on committees those are two very different committees those are two very different approaches to health when you talk to approaches to health when you talk to approaches to health when you talk to people are they excited about inviting people are they excited about inviting people are they excited about inviting people to the church or are they like people to the church or are they like people to the church or are they like yeah on Easter we go to the big church yeah on Easter we go to the big church yeah on Easter we go to the big church down the street because they've got a down the street because they've got a down the street because they've got a higher quality program I'm kind of higher quality program I'm kind of higher quality program I'm kind of embarrassed to bring my family to our embarrassed to bring my family to our embarrassed to bring my family to our church well then you got a problem when church well then you got a problem when church well then you got a problem when they show up do they F the back rows they show up do they F the back rows they show up do they F the back rows first or the front rows first is your first or the front rows first is your first or the front rows first is your church getting younger or is your church church getting younger or is your church church getting younger or is your church getting older when the service is over getting older when the service is over getting older when the service is over to people run as fast as they can for to people run as fast as they can for to people run as fast as they can for their cars or do they hang around until their cars or do they hang around until their cars or do they hang around until you got to push them out the doors when you got to push them out the doors when you got to push them out the doors when somebody sick how easy is it to get somebody sick how easy is it to get somebody sick how easy is it to get people to sign up for the meal train to people to sign up for the meal train to people to sign up for the meal train to bring people to bring food for that sick bring people to bring food for that sick bring people to bring food for that sick person until they're feeling well again

person until they're feeling well again person until they're feeling well again is it like pulling teeth just to get is it like pulling teeth just to get is it like pulling teeth just to get somebody to show up with a meal or do somebody to show up with a meal or do somebody to show up with a meal or do they sign up like crazy and want to help they sign up like crazy and want to help they sign up like crazy and want to help out as much as they can these are all out as much as they can these are all out as much as they can these are all non-numerical ways to take a look and go non-numerical ways to take a look and go non-numerical ways to take a look and go okay this church is a actually really okay this church is a actually really okay this church is a actually really healthy we're doing some wonderful healthy we're doing some wonderful healthy we're doing some wonderful things we're serving each other we're things we're serving each other we're things we're serving each other we're worshiping and we're and we're serving worshiping and we're and we're serving worshiping and we're and we're serving our community and they don't have our community and they don't have our community and they don't have numerical markers to them but the numerical markers to them but the numerical markers to them but the challenge is you've got to pay attention challenge is you've got to pay attention challenge is you've got to pay attention to them I encourage every small Church to them I encourage every small Church to them I encourage every small Church Pastor to keep what I call a healthy Pastor to keep what I call a healthy Pastor to keep what I call a healthy Church log book and it can be as simple Church log book and it can be as simple Church log book and it can be as simple as an empty you know an empty book of as an empty you know an empty book of as an empty you know an empty book of pages or it can be done online whatever pages or it can be done online whatever pages or it can be done online whatever works for you and every time something works for you and every time something works for you and every time something great happens at your church write it great happens at your church write it great happens at your church write it down and then six months to a year down down and then six months to a year down down and then six months to a year down the road when you're wondering have we the road when you're wondering have we the road when you're wondering have we accomplished anything in this church accomplished anything in this church accomplished anything in this church this year go through the log book and this year go through the log book and this year go through the log book and and remind yourself of that marriage and remind yourself of that marriage and remind yourself of that marriage that was restored of that alcoholic that was restored of that alcoholic that was restored of that alcoholic who's now sober and is serving Jesus of who's now sober and is serving Jesus of who's now sober and is serving Jesus of that couple that uh got saved but moved that couple that uh got saved but moved that couple that uh got saved but moved away so you don't get to count them in away so you don't get to count them in away so you don't get to count them in your end of your numbers uh we need to your end of your numbers uh we need to your end of your numbers uh we need to keep track of the non-numerical things keep track of the non-numerical things keep track of the non-numerical things more purposefully because the numbers more purposefully because the numbers more purposefully because the numbers are easy to see and the non-numerical are easy to see and the non-numerical are easy to see and the non-numerical qualifiers take some time to look for qualifiers take some time to look for qualifiers take some time to look for but they're worth looking for Carl such but they're worth looking for Carl such but they're worth looking for Carl such a a helpful conversation is there a a helpful conversation is there a a helpful conversation is there anything we haven't touched on that want anything we haven't touched on that want anything we haven't touched on that want to touch on before we wrap up to touch on before we wrap up to touch on before we wrap up today oh that's a good question I don't today oh that's a good question I don't today oh that's a good question I don't know well I I did mention um earlier the know well I I did mention um earlier the know well I I did mention um earlier the discipleship fixes everything as a title discipleship fixes everything as a title discipleship fixes everything as a title of one of my one of my um chapters so of one of my one of my um chapters so of one of my one of my um chapters so let me take a moment with that um what

let me take a moment with that um what let me take a moment with that um what the way I write my book is I I just as I the way I write my book is I I just as I the way I write my book is I I just as I have an idea I just throw it all on a have an idea I just throw it all on a have an idea I just throw it all on a page and I end up with this really long page and I end up with this really long page and I end up with this really long word document of a couple hundred pages word document of a couple hundred pages word document of a couple hundred pages and then when for this book I knew where and then when for this book I knew where and then when for this book I knew where Parts one and two and three were going Parts one and two and three were going Parts one and two and three were going to go why why is small problem what's to go why why is small problem what's to go why why is small problem what's the history of it and so on or not why the history of it and so on or not why the history of it and so on or not why is why is um our obsession with bigness is why is um our obsession with bigness is why is um our obsession with bigness a problem but at the end where I wanted a problem but at the end where I wanted a problem but at the end where I wanted to bring some answers here's what A to bring some answers here's what A to bring some answers here's what A Better Way Forward I just threw a whole Better Way Forward I just threw a whole Better Way Forward I just threw a whole bunch of ideas onto a big document and bunch of ideas onto a big document and bunch of ideas onto a big document and when I got to it I thought okay I need when I got to it I thought okay I need when I got to it I thought okay I need to now organize this in a way that to now organize this in a way that to now organize this in a way that people can actually read and follows people can actually read and follows people can actually read and follows themes and that makes sense so I started themes and that makes sense so I started themes and that makes sense so I started going through each of the pieces and I going through each of the pieces and I going through each of the pieces and I this is what happened I looked at the this is what happened I looked at the this is what happened I looked at the first went well that's really about first went well that's really about first went well that's really about discipleship second one well that's discipleship second one well that's discipleship second one well that's really about discipleship third one well really about discipleship third one well really about discipleship third one well that's really about discipleship and as that's really about discipleship and as that's really about discipleship and as I'm going through the I realized man I'm going through the I realized man I'm going through the I realized man it's like discipleship fixes everything it's like discipleship fixes everything it's like discipleship fixes everything and then I and then I and then I went oh do I believe that is that went oh do I believe that is that went oh do I believe that is that actually true and think about this can actually true and think about this can actually true and think about this can you imagine a problem that a church you imagine a problem that a church you imagine a problem that a church might have that discipleship won't fix might have that discipleship won't fix might have that discipleship won't fix because I can't lack of finances lack of because I can't lack of finances lack of because I can't lack of finances lack of volunteerism immorality disunity lack of volunteerism immorality disunity lack of volunteerism immorality disunity lack of evangelism discipleship fixes all of evangelism discipleship fixes all of evangelism discipleship fixes all of those things if we are really discipling those things if we are really discipling those things if we are really discipling our people discipleship will fix all of our people discipleship will fix all of our people discipleship will fix all of those things and i' I've got this I've those things and i' I've got this I've those things and i' I've got this I've got this conversation in my head that got this conversation in my head that got this conversation in my head that did not happen in the Bible it only did not happen in the Bible it only did not happen in the Bible it only happens in my head but here's the happens in my head but here's the happens in my head but here's the conversation that happened in my head in conversation that happened in my head in conversation that happened in my head in my head I have this conversation where my head I have this conversation where my head I have this conversation where near the end of Jesus time on Earth near the end of Jesus time on Earth near the end of Jesus time on Earth before he ascends into heaven he gathers

before he ascends into heaven he gathers before he ascends into heaven he gathers his disciples and he goes okay guys his disciples and he goes okay guys his disciples and he goes okay guys here's the plan I'm gonna build my here's the plan I'm gonna build my here's the plan I'm gonna build my church You're Gonna Go Make Disciples church You're Gonna Go Make Disciples church You're Gonna Go Make Disciples and they respond with got it we're going and they respond with got it we're going and they respond with got it we're going to go build your church and he goes no to go build your church and he goes no to go build your church and he goes no no no no no no no no I'm going to build no no no no no no no I'm going to build no no no no no no no I'm going to build my church You're Going To Go Make my church You're Going To Go Make my church You're Going To Go Make Disciples and they go oh we've got it Disciples and they go oh we've got it Disciples and they go oh we've got it we'll go build your church like no and we'll go build your church like no and we'll go build your church like no and it feels like we've been having this it feels like we've been having this it feels like we've been having this argument with Jesus for 2,000 years argument with Jesus for 2,000 years argument with Jesus for 2,000 years where Jesus continually keeps coming in where Jesus continually keeps coming in where Jesus continually keeps coming in and going guys guys wait wait a second and going guys guys wait wait a second and going guys guys wait wait a second I'm not calling you to build my church I I'm not calling you to build my church I I'm not calling you to build my church I will build my church I know what I'm will build my church I know what I'm will build my church I know what I'm doing I will do that make doing I will do that make doing I will do that make disciples but I think one of the big disciples but I think one of the big disciples but I think one of the big unint intended negative consequences of unint intended negative consequences of unint intended negative consequences of the church growth movement is that a the church growth movement is that a the church growth movement is that a whole lot of us are trying to take that whole lot of us are trying to take that whole lot of us are trying to take that burden off of Jesus shoulders and say burden off of Jesus shoulders and say burden off of Jesus shoulders and say we're going to go build the church now we're going to go build the church now we're going to go build the church now and Jesus is saying stop it I'm way and Jesus is saying stop it I'm way and Jesus is saying stop it I'm way better at this than you are I'll build better at this than you are I'll build better at this than you are I'll build my church if you make disciples I will my church if you make disciples I will my church if you make disciples I will fulfill my side of that bargain I will fulfill my side of that bargain I will fulfill my side of that bargain I will and he has been for 2,000 years building and he has been for 2,000 years building and he has been for 2,000 years building his church relentlessly so we've got to his church relentlessly so we've got to his church relentlessly so we've got to stop trying to do Jesus job and make stop trying to do Jesus job and make stop trying to do Jesus job and make sure that we do what he called us to do sure that we do what he called us to do sure that we do what he called us to do which is go and make which is go and make which is go and make disciples it's amazing that we've disciples it's amazing that we've disciples it's amazing that we've survived isn't it when you look at survived isn't it when you look at survived isn't it when you look at church history it really is there must church history it really is there must church history it really is there must be must be Jesus who's building this be must be Jesus who's building this be must be Jesus who's building this because we would have sunk it a long because we would have sunk it a long because we would have sunk it a long time ago Carl uh the book is called time ago Carl uh the book is called time ago Carl uh the book is called desizing the church it's out this year desizing the church it's out this year desizing the church it's out this year uh where are you most active online uh where are you most active online uh where are you most active online these days and my website is Carl vader.

these days and my website is Carl vader. these days and my website is Carl vader. so your name and my name are both in so your name and my name are both in so your name and my name are both in interesting to spell if they can spell interesting to spell if they can spell interesting to spell if they can spell our names they can find us online if our names they can find us online if our names they can find us online if they get close they're going to find you they get close they're going to find you they get close they're going to find you exactly I'm also on Instagram and uh exactly I'm also on Instagram and uh exactly I'm also on Instagram and uh Twitter X now and Facebook as well but Twitter X now and Facebook as well but Twitter X now and Facebook as well but Carl vader. is the Clearing House for Carl vader. is the Clearing House for Carl vader. is the Clearing House for everything with that I write for my everything with that I write for my everything with that I write for my books for my podcast and everything else books for my podcast and everything else books for my podcast and everything else right Carl I always enjoy our right Carl I always enjoy our right Carl I always enjoy our conversations thank you for your conversations thank you for your conversations thank you for your ministry I really appreciate it thank ministry I really appreciate it thank ministry I really appreciate it thank you Carrie