Real Difference in Church Growth? Thom Rainer on Reaching the Anxious Generation

When we begin to look at what is When we begin to look at what is happening in churches, we have happening in churches, we have happening in churches, we have discovered a corlary factor. Now, let me discovered a corlary factor. Now, let me discovered a corlary factor. Now, let me be very careful. Correlary factor is not be very careful. Correlary factor is not be very careful. Correlary factor is not causation. Churches that have at least causation. Churches that have at least causation. Churches that have at least three outwardly focused events on their three outwardly focused events on their three outwardly focused events on their calendar in a year are the churches that calendar in a year are the churches that calendar in a year are the churches that are growing and reaching Gen Z. That are growing and reaching Gen Z. That are growing and reaching Gen Z. That sounds too simple. Welcome to the Carrie sounds too simple. Welcome to the Carrie sounds too simple. Welcome to the Carrie Newhof Leadership Podcast and today we Newhof Leadership Podcast and today we Newhof Leadership Podcast and today we talk about what is the real difference talk about what is the real difference talk about what is the real difference between growing and declining churches. between growing and declining churches. between growing and declining churches. My guest is Tom Rener. He is the My guest is Tom Rener. He is the My guest is Tom Rener. He is the principal at Church Answers. We also principal at Church Answers. We also principal at Church Answers. We also talk about the anxious generation. So talk about the anxious generation. So talk about the anxious generation. So wherever you're watching, be sure to wherever you're watching, be sure to wherever you're watching, be sure to subscribe, follow, and leave a comment subscribe, follow, and leave a comment subscribe, follow, and leave a comment to join the conversation. Now, let's to join the conversation. Now, let's to join the conversation. Now, let's dive into my interview with Tom Rener. dive into my interview with Tom Rener. dive into my interview with Tom Rener. Tom, it's good to have you back. Tom, it's good to have you back. Tom, it's good to have you back. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. >> It's good to be back, Carrie. I don't >> It's good to be back, Carrie. I don't >> It's good to be back, Carrie. I don't know how far back we go, but uh I am know how far back we go, but uh I am know how far back we go, but uh I am grateful for the long relationship we've grateful for the long relationship we've grateful for the long relationship we've had and for the time we've had in had and for the time we've had in had and for the time we've had in speaking engagements and podcast speaking engagements and podcast speaking engagements and podcast writing, whatever the case may be.

writing, whatever the case may be. writing, whatever the case may be. You're one of my heroes out there and uh You're one of my heroes out there and uh You're one of my heroes out there and uh >> Well, likewise. I remember meeting at >> Well, likewise. I remember meeting at >> Well, likewise. I remember meeting at Rockettown Records back in the day or Rockettown Records back in the day or Rockettown Records back in the day or the Rocket Town venue in Nashville and the Rocket Town venue in Nashville and the Rocket Town venue in Nashville and uh and those great events we used to do uh and those great events we used to do uh and those great events we used to do and I'm just so grateful for you and and I'm just so grateful for you and and I'm just so grateful for you and your voice. So, thank you. your voice. So, thank you. your voice. So, thank you. >> Thank you, Carrie. >> Thank you, Carrie. >> Thank you, Carrie. >> Well, you know, it's pretty cool. Well, >> Well, you know, it's pretty cool. Well, >> Well, you know, it's pretty cool. Well, you and I have been around for a minute, you and I have been around for a minute, you and I have been around for a minute, and for the first time in my memory, and for the first time in my memory, and for the first time in my memory, we're seeing evidence, statistical we're seeing evidence, statistical we're seeing evidence, statistical evidence that the historic decline in evidence that the historic decline in evidence that the historic decline in the church is starting to reverse a the church is starting to reverse a the church is starting to reverse a little bit. little bit. little bit. >> I did not think I would see this, >> I did not think I would see this, >> I did not think I would see this, Carrie. Carrie. Carrie. >> I didn't either. If you go back to some >> I didn't either. If you go back to some >> I didn't either. If you go back to some of my predictions and projections and of my predictions and projections and of my predictions and projections and you you deem that I'm a prophet, you you you deem that I'm a prophet, you you you deem that I'm a prophet, you have full privilege to stone me to death have full privilege to stone me to death have full privilege to stone me to death cuz I I got a lot of these wrong. And I cuz I I got a lot of these wrong. And I cuz I I got a lot of these wrong. And I I thought the trajectory we were on and I thought the trajectory we were on and I thought the trajectory we were on and you know we talk about the nuns and you know we talk about the nuns and you know we talk about the nuns and those factors as well, but I thought the those factors as well, but I thought the those factors as well, but I thought the trajectory we're on was a sustained trajectory we're on was a sustained trajectory we're on was a sustained trajectory. I thought we were headed trajectory. I thought we were headed trajectory. I thought we were headed toward the European model, if you will. toward the European model, if you will. toward the European model, if you will. >> Me too. >> Me too. >> Me too. >> I blink my eye and things have changed >> I blink my eye and things have changed >> I blink my eye and things have changed and I am to say I'm blown away is an and I am to say I'm blown away is an and I am to say I'm blown away is an understatement. To say I was wrong is an understatement. To say I was wrong is an understatement. To say I was wrong is an understatement as well. I have I I am understatement as well. I have I I am understatement as well. I have I I am grateful I was wrong and I'm grateful grateful I was wrong and I'm grateful grateful I was wrong and I'm grateful for what I'm seeing God doing.

for what I'm seeing God doing. for what I'm seeing God doing. >> Yeah. You know, I'm in the same boat >> Yeah. You know, I'm in the same boat >> Yeah. You know, I'm in the same boat because, you know, in Canada, we had because, you know, in Canada, we had because, you know, in Canada, we had seen a steady decline and that's what we seen a steady decline and that's what we seen a steady decline and that's what we were seeing in the US. So, you kind of were seeing in the US. So, you kind of were seeing in the US. So, you kind of thought, well, this is just where we're thought, well, this is just where we're thought, well, this is just where we're going. And I would have said, yeah, we going. And I would have said, yeah, we going. And I would have said, yeah, we would end up eventually if it wasn't would end up eventually if it wasn't would end up eventually if it wasn't turned around like Europe. And yet, you turned around like Europe. And yet, you turned around like Europe. And yet, you know, the the starting with Asbury, know, the the starting with Asbury, know, the the starting with Asbury, there have been a couple of stirrings, there have been a couple of stirrings, there have been a couple of stirrings, but often, you know, like for example, I but often, you know, like for example, I but often, you know, like for example, I got this question. And it's like, aren't got this question. And it's like, aren't got this question. And it's like, aren't aren't millennials all returning to aren't millennials all returning to aren't millennials all returning to traditional mainline churches, you know, traditional mainline churches, you know, traditional mainline churches, you know, because they like liturgy? And I'm sure because they like liturgy? And I'm sure because they like liturgy? And I'm sure we all know one millennial who has done we all know one millennial who has done we all know one millennial who has done that, right? that, right? that, right? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But but anecdotes don't transmake. And >> But but anecdotes don't transmake. And >> But but anecdotes don't transmake. And I've never maybe you have the data. I've I've never maybe you have the data. I've I've never maybe you have the data. I've never been able to find data to show never been able to find data to show never been able to find data to show that that is statistically significant. that that is statistically significant. that that is statistically significant. >> Burge Burge has that data. And guess >> Burge Burge has that data. And guess >> Burge Burge has that data. And guess what? You're right. Yeah, I've seen his what? You're right. Yeah, I've seen his what? You're right. Yeah, I've seen his stuff on mainline decline just continues stuff on mainline decline just continues stuff on mainline decline just continues and I was talking to an old seminary and I was talking to an old seminary and I was talking to an old seminary prof last night. Ran into him at dinner prof last night. Ran into him at dinner prof last night. Ran into him at dinner just out of the blue. I'm like, "Wait a just out of the blue. I'm like, "Wait a just out of the blue. I'm like, "Wait a minute, that looks like" and he's like, minute, that looks like" and he's like, minute, that looks like" and he's like, "Hey, that looks like it's been 30 "Hey, that looks like it's been 30 "Hey, that looks like it's been 30 years."

years." years." >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> But he was just talking about declining >> But he was just talking about declining >> But he was just talking about declining enrollment at my alma matter and how enrollment at my alma matter and how enrollment at my alma matter and how they're having to pivot and pivot and they're having to pivot and pivot and they're having to pivot and pivot and pivot in the mainline church. But yeah, pivot in the mainline church. But yeah, pivot in the mainline church. But yeah, you know, it's funny because often we you know, it's funny because often we you know, it's funny because often we think if we know somebody, we see a think if we know somebody, we see a think if we know somebody, we see a trend. But the cool thing about 2025 is trend. But the cool thing about 2025 is trend. But the cool thing about 2025 is there is actual statistical data that I there is actual statistical data that I there is actual statistical data that I was just talking to David Kinnman today was just talking to David Kinnman today was just talking to David Kinnman today before I talked to you. before I talked to you. before I talked to you. >> Brilliant. Brilliant. >> Brilliant. Brilliant. >> Brilliant. Brilliant. >> And yeah, brilliant. But like uh you >> And yeah, brilliant. But like uh you >> And yeah, brilliant. But like uh you know women are now leaving the church know women are now leaving the church know women are now leaving the church faster than men and men are attending faster than men and men are attending faster than men and men are attending the church at a greater rate than women. the church at a greater rate than women. the church at a greater rate than women. He's like we have 40 years of data on He's like we have 40 years of data on He's like we have 40 years of data on this at Barna. This has never happened. this at Barna. This has never happened. this at Barna. This has never happened. Never happened. And it's all coming out Never happened. And it's all coming out Never happened. And it's all coming out at once in 2025. So it's interesting. at once in 2025. So it's interesting. at once in 2025. So it's interesting. What do what do you think is going on What do what do you think is going on What do what do you think is going on >> from the male female perspective? Just >> from the male female perspective? Just >> from the male female perspective? Just the gender issue. My honest answer is I the gender issue. My honest answer is I the gender issue. My honest answer is I cannot explain it. I I don't have a cannot explain it. I I don't have a cannot explain it. I I don't have a demographic, sociographic or even a demographic, sociographic or even a demographic, sociographic or even a spiritual answer uh to that. some of the spiritual answer uh to that. some of the spiritual answer uh to that. some of the other things I think we can see um you other things I think we can see um you other things I think we can see um you know particularly when we start talking know particularly when we start talking know particularly when we start talking about uh the millennials and where they about uh the millennials and where they about uh the millennials and where they are and then uh move forward to Gen Z are and then uh move forward to Gen Z are and then uh move forward to Gen Z and maybe even Gen Alpha uh generational and maybe even Gen Alpha uh generational and maybe even Gen Alpha uh generational trends I'm beginning to make some sense trends I'm beginning to make some sense trends I'm beginning to make some sense of but Carrie I'm so surprised at the of but Carrie I'm so surprised at the of but Carrie I'm so surprised at the gender trend at the at the trend of men gender trend at the at the trend of men gender trend at the at the trend of men returning and females not that uh I I returning and females not that uh I I returning and females not that uh I I cannot explain it there's some political cannot explain it there's some political cannot explain it there's some political corlaries that might match But I'm not corlaries that might match But I'm not corlaries that might match But I'm not ready to say because there's this

ready to say because there's this ready to say because there's this political movement going on over here political movement going on over here political movement going on over here that I can match it to the to the that I can match it to the to the that I can match it to the to the movement within the church. And you movement within the church. And you movement within the church. And you know, this is one of those things I wish know, this is one of those things I wish know, this is one of those things I wish I could make up some statistics. Stats I could make up some statistics. Stats I could make up some statistics. Stats used to say Ren's the greatest at used to say Ren's the greatest at used to say Ren's the greatest at statistics even if they aren't true. And statistics even if they aren't true. And statistics even if they aren't true. And so I I don't I don't have one of those. so I I don't I don't have one of those. so I I don't I don't have one of those. >> We can all make up stats, right? On the >> We can all make up stats, right? On the >> We can all make up stats, right? On the 77% of all statistics are made up on the 77% of all statistics are made up on the 77% of all statistics are made up on the spot. That's one of my favorite stats. spot. That's one of my favorite stats. spot. That's one of my favorite stats. But anyway, um, no, David's doing some But anyway, um, no, David's doing some But anyway, um, no, David's doing some more research into that which I think more research into that which I think more research into that which I think will be great and I look forward to to will be great and I look forward to to will be great and I look forward to to that coming out. But, you know, even the that coming out. But, you know, even the that coming out. But, you know, even the reversal of the decline that has been reversal of the decline that has been reversal of the decline that has been documented, you know, the number of documented, you know, the number of documented, you know, the number of people professing a uh an active faith people professing a uh an active faith people professing a uh an active faith in Jesus Christ that still has in Jesus Christ that still has in Jesus Christ that still has significance in their life, which is significance in their life, which is significance in their life, which is something I think all evangelical something I think all evangelical something I think all evangelical Christians can agree on, right? That's Christians can agree on, right? That's Christians can agree on, right? That's sort of the benchmark. It it it goes and sort of the benchmark. It it it goes and sort of the benchmark. It it it goes and and then I would put alongside that and then I would put alongside that and then I would put alongside that without the level of importance uh without the level of importance uh without the level of importance uh church attendance uh returning to church church attendance uh returning to church church attendance uh returning to church those factors church attendance does not those factors church attendance does not those factors church attendance does not salvation make but it is evidence that salvation make but it is evidence that salvation make but it is evidence that you are moving into some type of you are moving into some type of you are moving into some type of accountability and disciplehip mode accountability and disciplehip mode accountability and disciplehip mode within a larger body and you you know me within a larger body and you you know me within a larger body and you you know me Carrie you've known me for a long time I Carrie you've known me for a long time I Carrie you've known me for a long time I love the local church warts and all and love the local church warts and all and love the local church warts and all and this is this is encouraging to me to see this is this is encouraging to me to see this is this is encouraging to me to see that it's not only a movement of that it's not only a movement of that it's not only a movement of conversion of people coming to Christ.

conversion of people coming to Christ. conversion of people coming to Christ. This is a movement of people coming back This is a movement of people coming back This is a movement of people coming back to church. And I can't write books fast to church. And I can't write books fast to church. And I can't write books fast enough to keep up with the movement. I enough to keep up with the movement. I enough to keep up with the movement. I want to say I want to write this one. I want to say I want to write this one. I want to say I want to write this one. I want to write this one. I I have a book want to write this one. I I have a book want to write this one. I I have a book coming out. This this is not a plug. I'm coming out. This this is not a plug. I'm coming out. This this is not a plug. I'm just I'm talking about books I'm just I'm talking about books I'm just I'm talking about books I'm written, but I have a book coming out in written, but I have a book coming out in written, but I have a book coming out in 2026 that is basically about how the how 2026 that is basically about how the how 2026 that is basically about how the how Gen Z is really rejecting a lot of the Gen Z is really rejecting a lot of the Gen Z is really rejecting a lot of the digital world. Not totally, not digital world. Not totally, not digital world. Not totally, not completely, but they're seeing that completely, but they're seeing that completely, but they're seeing that there's something else in their lives. there's something else in their lives. there's something else in their lives. Um, right now I'm calling it the revival Um, right now I'm calling it the revival Um, right now I'm calling it the revival of the analog church. And even though of the analog church. And even though of the analog church. And even though it's not analog, it's not analog, it's not analog, >> uh, we're seeing these things and and >> uh, we're seeing these things and and >> uh, we're seeing these things and and particularly in Gen Z and probably more particularly in Gen Z and probably more particularly in Gen Z and probably more in Gen Z males, they're they're saying, in Gen Z males, they're they're saying, in Gen Z males, they're they're saying, you know, we've tried a lot of things you know, we've tried a lot of things you know, we've tried a lot of things and we have been shaped by a lot of and we have been shaped by a lot of and we have been shaped by a lot of things, but we're more messed up than we things, but we're more messed up than we things, but we're more messed up than we were when we started those things, were when we started those things, were when we started those things, whatever they were. And we can refer to, whatever they were. And we can refer to, whatever they were. And we can refer to, you know, we can we can talk about the you know, we can we can talk about the you know, we can we can talk about the smartphone. We can talk about the smartphone. We can talk about the smartphone. We can talk about the smartphone with social media. We can smartphone with social media. We can smartphone with social media. We can talk about polarization and all those talk about polarization and all those talk about polarization and all those issues. The Gen Z has come back and issues. The Gen Z has come back and issues. The Gen Z has come back and said, "This is the Rainer paraphrase."

said, "This is the Rainer paraphrase." said, "This is the Rainer paraphrase." So, this is the Reer Standard Version, So, this is the Reer Standard Version, So, this is the Reer Standard Version, the RSV. It ain't working. It just ain't the RSV. It ain't working. It just ain't the RSV. It ain't working. It just ain't working. And they they're smart and they working. And they they're smart and they working. And they they're smart and they know it. And so, if it's not working in know it. And so, if it's not working in know it. And so, if it's not working in their lives, they're asking the their lives, they're asking the their lives, they're asking the question, "What is there?" And some of question, "What is there?" And some of question, "What is there?" And some of them are returning to the faith. And not them are returning to the faith. And not them are returning to the faith. And not just their parents, but the grandparents just their parents, but the grandparents just their parents, but the grandparents and their great-grandparents. And again, and their great-grandparents. And again, and their great-grandparents. And again, Carrie, I want to be careful. I can get Carrie, I want to be careful. I can get Carrie, I want to be careful. I can get excited about something and then excited about something and then excited about something and then tomorrow it changes. But this does seem tomorrow it changes. But this does seem tomorrow it changes. But this does seem like a sustained trend and I'll continue like a sustained trend and I'll continue like a sustained trend and I'll continue to watch it all, listen to people like to watch it all, listen to people like to watch it all, listen to people like you and David Kinnman and others who who you and David Kinnman and others who who you and David Kinnman and others who who keep an eye on these things and Ryan keep an eye on these things and Ryan keep an eye on these things and Ryan Burge and others and because I want to Burge and others and because I want to Burge and others and because I want to know what God is doing so I can be a know what God is doing so I can be a know what God is doing so I can be a part of it and maybe in some way help part of it and maybe in some way help part of it and maybe in some way help and resource it in the midst of it. and resource it in the midst of it. and resource it in the midst of it. >> Well, God willing, my book on AI will be >> Well, God willing, my book on AI will be >> Well, God willing, my book on AI will be coming up, AI on the church in 2026. And coming up, AI on the church in 2026. And coming up, AI on the church in 2026. And the thesis is that the church's future the thesis is that the church's future the thesis is that the church's future direction is human connection. That as direction is human connection. That as direction is human connection. That as the world becomes more digital, we need the world becomes more digital, we need the world becomes more digital, we need to become more human. And there'll be a to become more human. And there'll be a to become more human. And there'll be a lot more to say on that down the road. lot more to say on that down the road. lot more to say on that down the road. But I couldn't agree with you more. One But I couldn't agree with you more. One But I couldn't agree with you more. One of the paradoxes though, and this is one of the paradoxes though, and this is one of the paradoxes though, and this is one of the reasons we're going to talk about of the reasons we're going to talk about of the reasons we're going to talk about Gen Z and the return to church and all Gen Z and the return to church and all Gen Z and the return to church and all of that. But one of the reasons I always of that. But one of the reasons I always of that. But one of the reasons I always love talking to you is, you know, you love talking to you is, you know, you love talking to you is, you know, you know, so many congregations like on the know, so many congregations like on the know, so many congregations like on the ground. you spent a lot of time ground. you spent a lot of time ground. you spent a lot of time consulting, doing work with church consulting, doing work with church consulting, doing work with church leaders on the ground. And I think what leaders on the ground. And I think what leaders on the ground. And I think what we're seeing is an uneven distribution we're seeing is an uneven distribution we're seeing is an uneven distribution of the statistical reversals that we're of the statistical reversals that we're of the statistical reversals that we're watching. Right? So, Gen Z is in watching. Right? So, Gen Z is in watching. Right? So, Gen Z is in revival. There are some pastors revival. There are some pastors revival. There are some pastors listening to this who are like, "Yeah,

listening to this who are like, "Yeah, listening to this who are like, "Yeah, and we are out of room and they're and we are out of room and they're and we are out of room and they're lining up at the door and we don't know lining up at the door and we don't know lining up at the door and we don't know what to do." But there's probably more what to do." But there's probably more what to do." But there's probably more pastors listening to this who are like, pastors listening to this who are like, pastors listening to this who are like, "Yeah, we haven't seen one in the last "Yeah, we haven't seen one in the last "Yeah, we haven't seen one in the last 10 years." 10 years." 10 years." It's a bit of an unequal distribution. It's a bit of an unequal distribution. It's a bit of an unequal distribution. Can you talk about what you're seeing? Can you talk about what you're seeing? Can you talk about what you're seeing? And particularly, I want to know what And particularly, I want to know what And particularly, I want to know what the the similarities are in the churches the the similarities are in the churches the the similarities are in the churches that perhaps aren't experiencing that perhaps aren't experiencing that perhaps aren't experiencing revival. And I'm going to say yet cuz revival. And I'm going to say yet cuz revival. And I'm going to say yet cuz I'm an optimist yet, but they're not I'm an optimist yet, but they're not I'm an optimist yet, but they're not seeing it yet. What are the similarities seeing it yet. What are the similarities seeing it yet. What are the similarities in those churches? Like what are they in those churches? Like what are they in those churches? Like what are they doing not doing that might be um a doing not doing that might be um a doing not doing that might be um a factor in them not seeing this factor in them not seeing this factor in them not seeing this resurgence? resurgence? resurgence? >> Well, first of all, you're right. It is >> Well, first of all, you're right. It is >> Well, first of all, you're right. It is unevenly distributed. We cannot look at unevenly distributed. We cannot look at unevenly distributed. We cannot look at a a set of churches and say of these a a set of churches and say of these a a set of churches and say of these churches we're going to project 96% of churches we're going to project 96% of churches we're going to project 96% of them will be in some type of revival or them will be in some type of revival or them will be in some type of revival or addition mode and that they will see addition mode and that they will see addition mode and that they will see great numbers in their churches. So great numbers in their churches. So great numbers in their churches. So you're you're exactly right there. So you're you're exactly right there. So you're you're exactly right there. So that's point number one. Point number that's point number one. Point number that's point number one. Point number two, when we begin to look at what is two, when we begin to look at what is two, when we begin to look at what is happening in churches, we have happening in churches, we have happening in churches, we have discovered a correlary factor. Now let discovered a correlary factor. Now let discovered a correlary factor. Now let me be very careful. correlary factors me be very careful. correlary factors me be very careful. correlary factors not causation. So when you talk about not causation. So when you talk about not causation. So when you talk about corollary factors you have to be very corollary factors you have to be very corollary factors you have to be very careful because many people say well careful because many people say well careful because many people say well let's go do this and then this will let's go do this and then this will let's go do this and then this will happen. I am not saying that but I can happen. I am not saying that but I can happen. I am not saying that but I can say that we have isolated the churches say that we have isolated the churches say that we have isolated the churches that have gained and isolated the that have gained and isolated the that have gained and isolated the churches that have lost. And there's churches that have lost. And there's churches that have lost. And there's usually no there's usually no such thing usually no there's usually no such thing usually no there's usually no such thing as a plateau. There's usually one way or

as a plateau. There's usually one way or as a plateau. There's usually one way or the other. So we have we have two sets the other. So we have we have two sets the other. So we have we have two sets of churches. Now this is not as much of churches. Now this is not as much of churches. Now this is not as much large quantitative research as it is large quantitative research as it is large quantitative research as it is >> significant qualitative. We have a lot >> significant qualitative. We have a lot >> significant qualitative. We have a lot of churches several hundreds but not of churches several hundreds but not of churches several hundreds but not tens of thousands. So yeah tens of thousands. So yeah tens of thousands. So yeah >> I want to be careful on both ends. I >> I want to be careful on both ends. I >> I want to be careful on both ends. I want to be careful that I'm making a want to be careful that I'm making a want to be careful that I'm making a statement that I'm suggesting has some statement that I'm suggesting has some statement that I'm suggesting has some type of causes causation to it and I'll type of causes causation to it and I'll type of causes causation to it and I'll be very careful to say that I have a be very careful to say that I have a be very careful to say that I have a significant enough population to make a significant enough population to make a significant enough population to make a point. So have I is that enough caveats point. So have I is that enough caveats point. So have I is that enough caveats at this? I mean have I covered at this? I mean have I covered at this? I mean have I covered >> but now I'm sitting on the edge of my >> but now I'm sitting on the edge of my >> but now I'm sitting on the edge of my seat. What is it? What is it? What is seat. What is it? What is it? What is seat. What is it? What is it? What is it? it? it? >> Cover myself fully on this. So we began >> Cover myself fully on this. So we began >> Cover myself fully on this. So we began to isolate the factors and uh it started to isolate the factors and uh it started to isolate the factors and uh it started in consultations. It expanded beyond in consultations. It expanded beyond in consultations. It expanded beyond that because in the course of a year we that because in the course of a year we that because in the course of a year we will do oh ter in terms of on the ground will do oh ter in terms of on the ground will do oh ter in terms of on the ground consultations we'll probably do 50 or consultations we'll probably do 50 or consultations we'll probably do 50 or 60. So you know that's not a large 60. So you know that's not a large 60. So you know that's not a large number. So we started expanding. number. So we started expanding. number. So we started expanding. >> It's it's anecdotal but it's good >> It's it's anecdotal but it's good >> It's it's anecdotal but it's good anecdotal. anecdotal. anecdotal. >> Yeah. And so we started expanding it and >> Yeah. And so we started expanding it and >> Yeah. And so we started expanding it and we started asking denominational and we started asking denominational and we started asking denominational and network leaders, will you look at these network leaders, will you look at these network leaders, will you look at these churches for us and give us some churches for us and give us some churches for us and give us some information? So when it was all said and information? So when it was all said and information? So when it was all said and done, we we we had the two stacks of done, we we we had the two stacks of done, we we we had the two stacks of information, the figurative stacks, not information, the figurative stacks, not information, the figurative stacks, not the literal stacks. And we we came away the literal stacks. And we we came away the literal stacks. And we we came away and said, "Look at this." And it's so and said, "Look at this." And it's so and said, "Look at this." And it's so simple. Churches that have at least simple. Churches that have at least simple. Churches that have at least three outwardly focused events on their three outwardly focused events on their three outwardly focused events on their calendar in a year are the churches that calendar in a year are the churches that calendar in a year are the churches that are growing and reaching Gen Z. That are growing and reaching Gen Z. That are growing and reaching Gen Z. That sounds too simple.

sounds too simple. sounds too simple. That just there there there's some That just there there there's some That just there there there's some people who will hear that and maybe even people who will hear that and maybe even people who will hear that and maybe even Karen Newuff hears this and said, "Tom, Karen Newuff hears this and said, "Tom, Karen Newuff hears this and said, "Tom, let's do let's get this a little more let's do let's get this a little more let's do let's get this a little more exciting." But the reality of it is if exciting." But the reality of it is if exciting." But the reality of it is if there were three outwardly focused there were three outwardly focused there were three outwardly focused things and a thing can be loosely things and a thing can be loosely things and a thing can be loosely defined but largely attempt to reach defined but largely attempt to reach defined but largely attempt to reach people in your community and bring them people in your community and bring them people in your community and bring them into your church. Not just a ministry into your church. Not just a ministry into your church. Not just a ministry but attempt to reach people in your but attempt to reach people in your but attempt to reach people in your community. We we get very particular on community. We we get very particular on community. We we get very particular on that type of definition when we work that type of definition when we work that type of definition when we work with churches. If there were at least with churches. If there were at least with churches. If there were at least three a year then that church had a high three a year then that church had a high three a year then that church had a high likelihood of not only being in a growth likelihood of not only being in a growth likelihood of not only being in a growth mode but a Gen Z mode. Now, when I say mode but a Gen Z mode. Now, when I say mode but a Gen Z mode. Now, when I say Gen Z mode, I mean a Gen Z growth mode. Gen Z mode, I mean a Gen Z growth mode. Gen Z mode, I mean a Gen Z growth mode. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's going on there? Well, this is >> What's going on there? Well, this is >> What's going on there? Well, this is almost Matthew 9 or Luke 10, depending almost Matthew 9 or Luke 10, depending almost Matthew 9 or Luke 10, depending upon which paricopy you want to compare, upon which paricopy you want to compare, upon which paricopy you want to compare, but it's basically there's a harvest out but it's basically there's a harvest out but it's basically there's a harvest out there. We just need to send workers into there. We just need to send workers into there. We just need to send workers into the field. So, pray to the Lord of the the field. So, pray to the Lord of the the field. So, pray to the Lord of the harvest that there will be workers in harvest that there will be workers in harvest that there will be workers in the field. the field. the field. >> So, what have I done? I've gotten very >> So, what have I done? I've gotten very >> So, what have I done? I've gotten very traditional on the outreach mode. I've traditional on the outreach mode. I've traditional on the outreach mode. I've gotten biblical and I'm not doing gotten biblical and I'm not doing gotten biblical and I'm not doing anything cutting edge right now. I'm anything cutting edge right now. I'm anything cutting edge right now. I'm just I'm just giving the facts of this.

just I'm just giving the facts of this. just I'm just giving the facts of this. So we we we have this data and we we So we we we have this data and we we So we we we have this data and we we know now according to other research know now according to other research know now according to other research that we have done that Gen Z is waiting that we have done that Gen Z is waiting that we have done that Gen Z is waiting they're waiting for the invitation. they're waiting for the invitation. they're waiting for the invitation. They're waiting for the connection. They're waiting for the connection. They're waiting for the connection. They're waiting for someone to come to They're waiting for someone to come to They're waiting for someone to come to them. If a church does this very poorly, them. If a church does this very poorly, them. If a church does this very poorly, they're going to be much more likely to they're going to be much more likely to they're going to be much more likely to see them come if they don't do it at see them come if they don't do it at see them come if they don't do it at all. And so three and if you do four oh all. And so three and if you do four oh all. And so three and if you do four oh my goodness the correlation jumps up my goodness the correlation jumps up my goodness the correlation jumps up almost to 0.9 which is unheard of but almost to 0.9 which is unheard of but almost to 0.9 which is unheard of but certainly 75.8 a correlation when you certainly 75.8 a correlation when you certainly 75.8 a correlation when you when you look at three and Carrie the when you look at three and Carrie the when you look at three and Carrie the the obvious question is what does that the obvious question is what does that the obvious question is what does that mean you know what what what are those mean you know what what what are those mean you know what what what are those correlary things that you are doing well correlary things that you are doing well correlary things that you are doing well it could be just this time were you it could be just this time were you it could be just this time were you going to invite a lot of people on a going to invite a lot of people on a going to invite a lot of people on a particular day we used to call them uh particular day we used to call them uh particular day we used to call them uh high attendance days or what did Elmer high attendance days or what did Elmer high attendance days or what did Elmer towns call them back in the day towns call them back in the day towns call them back in the day >> Elmer towns there's a name I haven't >> Elmer towns there's a name I haven't >> Elmer towns there's a name I haven't heard in a minute heard in a minute heard in a minute >> friend days >> friend days >> friend days >> friend days yeah bring a friend day >> friend days yeah bring a friend day >> friend days yeah bring a friend day >> uh we have invite your one at church >> uh we have invite your one at church >> uh we have invite your one at church answers and It's just a day where you answers and It's just a day where you answers and It's just a day where you get everybody thinking about inviting get everybody thinking about inviting get everybody thinking about inviting someone else. So that that would be one someone else. So that that would be one someone else. So that that would be one example. Another example is what are we example. Another example is what are we example. Another example is what are we doing to change the culture of the doing to change the culture of the doing to change the culture of the church? Are we sending the church church? Are we sending the church church? Are we sending the church through a culture of prayer and through a culture of prayer and through a culture of prayer and evangelism where they're constantly evangelism where they're constantly evangelism where they're constantly asking themselves the question there are asking themselves the question there are asking themselves the question there are ways that you can put that on the ways that you can put that on the ways that you can put that on the calendar where you see a church calendar where you see a church calendar where you see a church transformed in that in that methodology.

transformed in that in that methodology. transformed in that in that methodology. It it could be something like sports It it could be something like sports It it could be something like sports ministry like Upward and and and Upward. ministry like Upward and and and Upward. ministry like Upward and and and Upward. Upward is seeing some of its most Upward is seeing some of its most Upward is seeing some of its most significant growth. Wow. Is it because significant growth. Wow. Is it because significant growth. Wow. Is it because they're a great company? Yeah, they are they're a great company? Yeah, they are they're a great company? Yeah, they are a very good company. I love those folks. a very good company. I love those folks. a very good company. I love those folks. But it's it's more. It is the fact that But it's it's more. It is the fact that But it's it's more. It is the fact that they have an intentional ministry to they have an intentional ministry to they have an intentional ministry to reach the community through sports. reach the community through sports. reach the community through sports. >> And uh you know, some of it is easy. >> And uh you know, some of it is easy. >> And uh you know, some of it is easy. This sounds like an advertisement for This sounds like an advertisement for This sounds like an advertisement for upwards, so forgive me. But upwards, so forgive me. But upwards, so forgive me. But >> no, we know those guys. They're great. >> no, we know those guys. They're great. >> no, we know those guys. They're great. They partner with us on the podcast and They partner with us on the podcast and They partner with us on the podcast and and that's it. It's not a church league and that's it. It's not a church league and that's it. It's not a church league for sports, right? for sports, right? for sports, right? >> A community league. >> A community league. >> A community league. >> It's a community league >> It's a community league >> It's a community league >> and they have to easy as a 5K where you >> and they have to easy as a 5K where you >> and they have to easy as a 5K where you just have one person in the church just have one person in the church just have one person in the church organize it and people in the community organize it and people in the community organize it and people in the community come and run the 5K. Their big growth come and run the 5K. Their big growth come and run the 5K. Their big growth engine, by the way, is pickle ball. So engine, by the way, is pickle ball. So engine, by the way, is pickle ball. So that's fascinating. that's fascinating. that's fascinating. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> That is >> That is >> That is >> a sport that won't go away. >> a sport that won't go away. >> a sport that won't go away. >> Yes. But that's what's going on. It is >> Yes. But that's what's going on. It is >> Yes. But that's what's going on. It is plain and simple. When churches attempt plain and simple. When churches attempt plain and simple. When churches attempt to reach people, guess what they do? to reach people, guess what they do? to reach people, guess what they do? they reach people. Who are they they reach people. Who are they they reach people. Who are they primarily reaching? Gen Z and maybe to a primarily reaching? Gen Z and maybe to a primarily reaching? Gen Z and maybe to a little bit Gen Alpha depending upon what little bit Gen Alpha depending upon what little bit Gen Alpha depending upon what the family makeup is. I could go on and the family makeup is. I could go on and the family makeup is. I could go on and on about that. I don't want to overstate on about that. I don't want to overstate on about that. I don't want to overstate it, Carrie. But that's what we are it, Carrie. But that's what we are it, Carrie. But that's what we are seeing in the churches that are growing seeing in the churches that are growing seeing in the churches that are growing versus not growing more than any one versus not growing more than any one versus not growing more than any one thing.

thing. thing. >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by >> Today's episode is brought to you by Fund the Future Masterass. Church Fund the Future Masterass. Church Fund the Future Masterass. Church leaders, maybe this feels familiar. You leaders, maybe this feels familiar. You leaders, maybe this feels familiar. You cast vision. You preach faithfully. But cast vision. You preach faithfully. But cast vision. You preach faithfully. But when it comes to finances and when it comes to finances and when it comes to finances and generational giving, you hit a wall. You generational giving, you hit a wall. You generational giving, you hit a wall. You ask your congregation to invest. And ask your congregation to invest. And ask your congregation to invest. And suddenly the room goes quiet. Maybe you suddenly the room goes quiet. Maybe you suddenly the room goes quiet. Maybe you launch a giving campaign. And by Monday, launch a giving campaign. And by Monday, launch a giving campaign. And by Monday, you've got push back, an email inbox you've got push back, an email inbox you've got push back, an email inbox full of, "Hey, why'd you say that?" full of, "Hey, why'd you say that?" full of, "Hey, why'd you say that?" Right? Listen, I've had that tension, Right? Listen, I've had that tension, Right? Listen, I've had that tension, too. But here's what I've learned. too. But here's what I've learned. too. But here's what I've learned. Leading a generous, fully funded church Leading a generous, fully funded church Leading a generous, fully funded church isn't about gimmicks or pressure. And isn't about gimmicks or pressure. And isn't about gimmicks or pressure. And that's exactly why me, Craig Rashelle, that's exactly why me, Craig Rashelle, that's exactly why me, Craig Rashelle, Chris Hodgeges, Ashley Wridge, Dan Chris Hodgeges, Ashley Wridge, Dan Chris Hodgeges, Ashley Wridge, Dan Clark, and others created the Fund the Clark, and others created the Fund the Clark, and others created the Fund the Future Master Class. It's a step-by-step Future Master Class. It's a step-by-step Future Master Class. It's a step-by-step program to shift your church from program to shift your church from program to shift your church from transactional giving to transformational transactional giving to transformational transactional giving to transformational generosity. Together, you'll be equipped generosity. Together, you'll be equipped generosity. Together, you'll be equipped to lead with vision, strategy, and tools to lead with vision, strategy, and tools to lead with vision, strategy, and tools to grow giving that's sustainable and to grow giving that's sustainable and to grow giving that's sustainable and spirit-led. Enrollment is open now, so spirit-led. Enrollment is open now, so spirit-led. Enrollment is open now, so click the link in this episode's click the link in this episode's click the link in this episode's description to get started. This podcast description to get started. This podcast description to get started. This podcast is brought to you by Blay. Well, what if is brought to you by Blay. Well, what if is brought to you by Blay. Well, what if your message could reach further without your message could reach further without your message could reach further without adding more to your plate? So, you were adding more to your plate? So, you were adding more to your plate? So, you were called to ministry to change lives, not called to ministry to change lives, not called to ministry to change lives, not to chase algorithms, design graphics, or to chase algorithms, design graphics, or to chase algorithms, design graphics, or manage marketing campaigns. Yet, too manage marketing campaigns. Yet, too manage marketing campaigns. Yet, too many pastors do that. And way too often, many pastors do that. And way too often, many pastors do that. And way too often, the urgent demands of digital outreach the urgent demands of digital outreach the urgent demands of digital outreach pull you away from what matters most, pull you away from what matters most, pull you away from what matters most, leading your people and sharing the leading your people and sharing the leading your people and sharing the gospel. You shouldn't have to choose

gospel. You shouldn't have to choose gospel. You shouldn't have to choose between reaching more people and staying between reaching more people and staying between reaching more people and staying true to your calling. That's where true to your calling. That's where true to your calling. That's where Blay's expert marketing assistants come Blay's expert marketing assistants come Blay's expert marketing assistants come in. They help pastors like you grow your in. They help pastors like you grow your in. They help pastors like you grow your market presence without growing your market presence without growing your market presence without growing your to-do list. If you're not sure how to to-do list. If you're not sure how to to-do list. If you're not sure how to start, here's what you do. Download start, here's what you do. Download start, here's what you do. Download Ble's free resource, 15 tasks a pastor Ble's free resource, 15 tasks a pastor Ble's free resource, 15 tasks a pastor can delegate to a marketing assistant. can delegate to a marketing assistant. can delegate to a marketing assistant. You'll discover exactly what to hand off You'll discover exactly what to hand off You'll discover exactly what to hand off so you can focus on your calling, not so you can focus on your calling, not so you can focus on your calling, not content calendars. How do you do it? content calendars. How do you do it? content calendars. How do you do it? Well, text the word carry c a r y to Well, text the word carry c a r y to Well, text the word carry c a r y to 55123. That's carry to 55123. Let Blay 55123. That's carry to 55123. Let Blay 55123. That's carry to 55123. Let Blay help you lead with greater focus and help you lead with greater focus and help you lead with greater focus and greater impact. So, three outwardly greater impact. So, three outwardly greater impact. So, three outwardly focused outreaches a year. Now, just to focused outreaches a year. Now, just to focused outreaches a year. Now, just to just to go a little bit deeper cuz I just to go a little bit deeper cuz I just to go a little bit deeper cuz I want to spend some time on that. Um, you want to spend some time on that. Um, you want to spend some time on that. Um, you know, some people would say, well, isn't know, some people would say, well, isn't know, some people would say, well, isn't every Sunday invite a friend Sunday? I every Sunday invite a friend Sunday? I every Sunday invite a friend Sunday? I mean, that's definitely the culture we mean, that's definitely the culture we mean, that's definitely the culture we try to create and we we are, you know, try to create and we we are, you know, try to create and we we are, you know, fortunate to see new people. I I fortunate to see new people. I I fortunate to see new people. I I remember, you know, it's really remember, you know, it's really remember, you know, it's really interesting. I remember the last Sunday interesting. I remember the last Sunday interesting. I remember the last Sunday in Kexus Church and it's different in Kexus Church and it's different in Kexus Church and it's different incarnations. It's only 18 years old, incarnations. It's only 18 years old, incarnations. It's only 18 years old, but you know, 30 years now of ministry but you know, 30 years now of ministry but you know, 30 years now of ministry in the same place with the same people, in the same place with the same people, in the same place with the same people, just the name changed and uh, you know, just the name changed and uh, you know, just the name changed and uh, you know, we kind of replanted. But I remember the we kind of replanted. But I remember the we kind of replanted. But I remember the last Sunday where I looked out, we were last Sunday where I looked out, we were last Sunday where I looked out, we were in a school auditorium, in a school auditorium, in a school auditorium, um, elementary school, so it was small, um, elementary school, so it was small, um, elementary school, so it was small, and I knew everybody in the room and I knew everybody in the room and I knew everybody in the room >> and I like I knew the names of >> and I like I knew the names of >> and I like I knew the names of everybody, and there were maybe 150, 200 everybody, and there were maybe 150, 200 everybody, and there were maybe 150, 200 people present, but I'm like a or maybe

people present, but I'm like a or maybe people present, but I'm like a or maybe it was 300 at the time. I know everybody it was 300 at the time. I know everybody it was 300 at the time. I know everybody here, darn. And I thought, Lord, I don't here, darn. And I thought, Lord, I don't here, darn. And I thought, Lord, I don't want to teach in front of the same want to teach in front of the same want to teach in front of the same people for the rest of my life. And that people for the rest of my life. And that people for the rest of my life. And that was the last Sunday that I, you know, was the last Sunday that I, you know, was the last Sunday that I, you know, every Sunday, I'm pretty sure every Sunday, I'm pretty sure every Sunday, I'm pretty sure consistently now for almost 25 years, consistently now for almost 25 years, consistently now for almost 25 years, >> we have seen new people every single >> we have seen new people every single >> we have seen new people every single Sunday. But part of that impetus was you Sunday. But part of that impetus was you Sunday. But part of that impetus was you guys go do evangelism, invite your guys go do evangelism, invite your guys go do evangelism, invite your friends. We're going to create a great friends. We're going to create a great friends. We're going to create a great environment for that. And and currently environment for that. And and currently environment for that. And and currently we're in an explosive period of that. Is we're in an explosive period of that. Is we're in an explosive period of that. Is that enough like to have a mindset or do that enough like to have a mindset or do that enough like to have a mindset or do you have to have additional events on you have to have additional events on you have to have additional events on top of that? top of that? top of that? >> I would say that you would be the >> I would say that you would be the >> I would say that you would be the outlier and it's not enough for most outlier and it's not enough for most outlier and it's not enough for most churches. So we're we're dealing with churches. So we're we're dealing with churches. So we're we're dealing with 400 400 400 >> because it's not really about invite >> because it's not really about invite >> because it's not really about invite your friends or we don't have any your friends or we don't have any your friends or we don't have any friends or like what is that about? friends or like what is that about? friends or like what is that about? >> Well, what that means is that your >> Well, what that means is that your >> Well, what that means is that your church has created a culture that's church has created a culture that's church has created a culture that's sustainable and many churches are not sustainable and many churches are not sustainable and many churches are not near that point. And so that's fair.

near that point. And so that's fair. near that point. And so that's fair. just just to tell them to go out and just just to tell them to go out and just just to tell them to go out and bite. Now, here here forgive me with all bite. Now, here here forgive me with all bite. Now, here here forgive me with all these correlative factors because they these correlative factors because they these correlative factors because they can be boring and they can be wrong can be boring and they can be wrong can be boring and they can be wrong both. And so, here's here's some more of both. And so, here's here's some more of both. And so, here's here's some more of our nonverified facts, but close enough our nonverified facts, but close enough our nonverified facts, but close enough that I feel pretty good about it. that I feel pretty good about it. that I feel pretty good about it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> If you invite someone to church, if a >> If you invite someone to church, if a >> If you invite someone to church, if a church member invites someone to church, church member invites someone to church, church member invites someone to church, about 15% will show up within a about 15% will show up within a about 15% will show up within a six-month period. That's rough. Okay. six-month period. That's rough. Okay. six-month period. That's rough. Okay. That's we're we're actually asking That's we're we're actually asking That's we're we're actually asking people who have people who have people who have >> 85% strikeout rate. >> 85% strikeout rate. >> 85% strikeout rate. >> 85% strike but a 16%. You you invite 200 >> 85% strike but a 16%. You you invite 200 >> 85% strike but a 16%. You you invite 200 and you're going to get uh what 16% of and you're going to get uh what 16% of and you're going to get uh what 16% of 200 3 200 3 200 3 >> 32 >> 32 >> 32 >> 32. And if you're in a church of 150 >> 32. And if you're in a church of 150 >> 32. And if you're in a church of 150 with a mediumsized church at 65, you're with a mediumsized church at 65, you're with a mediumsized church at 65, you're doing pretty well. So doing pretty well. So doing pretty well. So >> So that that's one thing. But listen to >> So that that's one thing. But listen to >> So that that's one thing. But listen to this one. When someone invites someone this one. When someone invites someone this one. When someone invites someone to church and ask them to go for coffee to church and ask them to go for coffee to church and ask them to go for coffee or a meal afterwards or before, either or a meal afterwards or before, either or a meal afterwards or before, either one, the number jumps up to almost 80%.

one, the number jumps up to almost 80%. one, the number jumps up to almost 80%. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> The relationship, >> The relationship, >> The relationship, >> I didn't know that >> I didn't know that >> I didn't know that >> the relationship has been developed. Um, >> the relationship has been developed. Um, >> the relationship has been developed. Um, I only go to church where my sons are I only go to church where my sons are I only go to church where my sons are pastor. I stopped preaching and the pastor. I stopped preaching and the pastor. I stopped preaching and the world was so much better for it. I mean world was so much better for it. I mean world was so much better for it. I mean uh to Carrie on a scale of 1 to 10 my uh to Carrie on a scale of 1 to 10 my uh to Carrie on a scale of 1 to 10 my preaching ability did not hit zero. I I preaching ability did not hit zero. I I preaching ability did not hit zero. I I I strove for minus two but I am a I strove for minus two but I am a I strove for minus two but I am a terrible preacher and when I got out of terrible preacher and when I got out of terrible preacher and when I got out of that world and when I was at Lifeway I that world and when I was at Lifeway I that world and when I was at Lifeway I was preaching at other churches every was preaching at other churches every was preaching at other churches every week not because I was a great preacher week not because I was a great preacher week not because I was a great preacher just cuz they wanted me in my position just cuz they wanted me in my position just cuz they wanted me in my position there. So, what I love is every Sunday there. So, what I love is every Sunday there. So, what I love is every Sunday I'm either at my son Jess's church in I'm either at my son Jess's church in I'm either at my son Jess's church in the Nashville area or on rare occasions the Nashville area or on rare occasions the Nashville area or on rare occasions my son Sam in the Sarasota Bradon area. my son Sam in the Sarasota Bradon area. my son Sam in the Sarasota Bradon area. So, yesterday and that's I just love So, yesterday and that's I just love So, yesterday and that's I just love doing that. That's about that's almost doing that. That's about that's almost doing that. That's about that's almost all I do. Yesterday, we had a outreach all I do. Yesterday, we had a outreach all I do. Yesterday, we had a outreach meeting. It was it was a meeting of meeting. It was it was a meeting of meeting. It was it was a meeting of those who are in the the welcome those who are in the the welcome those who are in the the welcome ministry and related. And uh Jess gave ministry and related. And uh Jess gave ministry and related. And uh Jess gave that stat to them. from Jess, my pastor, that stat to them. from Jess, my pastor, that stat to them. from Jess, my pastor, the one that I just shared with you. And the one that I just shared with you. And the one that I just shared with you. And there was a audible gasp among the his there was a audible gasp among the his there was a audible gasp among the his church runs about 200. So there was church runs about 200. So there was church runs about 200. So there was probably 20 people there. And there was probably 20 people there. And there was probably 20 people there. And there was this audible gasp about, wow, if we just this audible gasp about, wow, if we just this audible gasp about, wow, if we just invite them to a meal. Now in that room, invite them to a meal. Now in that room, invite them to a meal. Now in that room, as an illustration, which was kind of as an illustration, which was kind of as an illustration, which was kind of neat, there were eight people that Nelly neat, there were eight people that Nelly neat, there were eight people that Nelly Joe, my wife, and I had invited to Joe, my wife, and I had invited to Joe, my wife, and I had invited to church and taken to a meal. And I said, church and taken to a meal. And I said, church and taken to a meal. And I said, "How many of you came to church after we

"How many of you came to church after we "How many of you came to church after we took you to a meal?" So almost half of took you to a meal?" So almost half of took you to a meal?" So almost half of those who are now in the welcome those who are now in the welcome those who are now in the welcome ministry were affected by that. So ministry were affected by that. So ministry were affected by that. So that's all anecdotal that's all anecdotal that's all anecdotal >> but it's growing anecdote. The relation >> but it's growing anecdote. The relation >> but it's growing anecdote. The relation to the invite. to the invite. to the invite. >> So a couple of things we for years we >> So a couple of things we for years we >> So a couple of things we for years we don't do it anymore. Use vacation Bible don't do it anymore. Use vacation Bible don't do it anymore. Use vacation Bible camp. Would that be an example of camp. Would that be an example of camp. Would that be an example of something if you really not to be the something if you really not to be the something if you really not to be the church daycare circuit. That's why we church daycare circuit. That's why we church daycare circuit. That's why we ultimately shut it down is we just ultimately shut it down is we just ultimately shut it down is we just became Christian daycare for free for became Christian daycare for free for became Christian daycare for free for Christians. But in the early days, it Christians. But in the early days, it Christians. But in the early days, it was uh really effective at outreach. You was uh really effective at outreach. You was uh really effective at outreach. You know, our average members were in their know, our average members were in their know, our average members were in their 70s, 60s. You know, I was 30, just 70s, 60s. You know, I was 30, just 70s, 60s. You know, I was 30, just starting out. And it's like, there's a starting out. And it's like, there's a starting out. And it's like, there's a lot of young families around here. Let's lot of young families around here. Let's lot of young families around here. Let's go reach them. And they showed up. And go reach them. And they showed up. And go reach them. And they showed up. And then they stuck around. And you know, then they stuck around. And you know, then they stuck around. And you know, some of those kids are still now adults some of those kids are still now adults some of those kids are still now adults in their 30s and 40s, uh, who are part in their 30s and 40s, uh, who are part in their 30s and 40s, uh, who are part of our ministry today. Would that be an of our ministry today. Would that be an of our ministry today. Would that be an example of an outreach event? example of an outreach event? example of an outreach event? >> It is. Any kind of outreach event has to >> It is. Any kind of outreach event has to >> It is. Any kind of outreach event has to have attached to it intentionality. It have attached to it intentionality. It have attached to it intentionality. It cannot just be an event that the church cannot just be an event that the church cannot just be an event that the church does and the people sit back and watch does and the people sit back and watch does and the people sit back and watch >> because they have to be involved >> because they have to be involved >> because they have to be involved inviting their friends.

inviting their friends. inviting their friends. >> They have to be >> They have to be >> They have to be >> and it shouldn't be Christian daycare >> and it shouldn't be Christian daycare >> and it shouldn't be Christian daycare for the summer, right? for the summer, right? for the summer, right? >> Yeah. Absolutely. They're going to be >> Yeah. Absolutely. They're going to be >> Yeah. Absolutely. They're going to be especially the Baptist. They're going to especially the Baptist. They're going to especially the Baptist. They're going to show up for anything that's free for show up for anything that's free for show up for anything that's free for their kids. But yeah, it needs to be their kids. But yeah, it needs to be their kids. But yeah, it needs to be highly intentional to those who are not highly intentional to those who are not highly intentional to those who are not in church. in church. in church. >> Yeah. The other one that's really >> Yeah. The other one that's really >> Yeah. The other one that's really helping us right now, we ran it 20 years helping us right now, we ran it 20 years helping us right now, we ran it 20 years ago and then it was on ice for a while, ago and then it was on ice for a while, ago and then it was on ice for a while, but now it's back for the last three or but now it's back for the last three or but now it's back for the last three or four years. It's just been huge in four years. It's just been huge in four years. It's just been huge in generating the growth we're seeing is generating the growth we're seeing is generating the growth we're seeing is Alpha and it's Christians inviting Alpha and it's Christians inviting Alpha and it's Christians inviting non-Christians. non-Christians. non-Christians. >> I've got to do more research on that. I >> I've got to do more research on that. I >> I've got to do more research on that. I always for many years saw alpha is this always for many years saw alpha is this always for many years saw alpha is this mainland thing that's kind of mainland thing that's kind of mainland thing that's kind of transporting to the US, maybe through transporting to the US, maybe through transporting to the US, maybe through the Anglican world, whatever the case the Anglican world, whatever the case the Anglican world, whatever the case may be. And I'm hearing some of the same may be. And I'm hearing some of the same may be. And I'm hearing some of the same things you're talking about alpha. Yeah, things you're talking about alpha. Yeah, things you're talking about alpha. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, I know Nikki, you it's amazing. I mean, I know Nikki, you it's amazing. I mean, I know Nikki, you should get to know Nikki. I can always should get to know Nikki. I can always should get to know Nikki. I can always introduce you guys, but Nikki Gumble introduce you guys, but Nikki Gumble introduce you guys, but Nikki Gumble pioneered it. And I mean, it's a it it pioneered it. And I mean, it's a it it pioneered it. And I mean, it's a it it did come out of the mainline tradition, did come out of the mainline tradition, did come out of the mainline tradition, but it's on fire with the Holy Spirit but it's on fire with the Holy Spirit but it's on fire with the Holy Spirit and thoroughly biblical. And it's it's and thoroughly biblical. And it's it's and thoroughly biblical. And it's it's probably more effective everywhere in probably more effective everywhere in probably more effective everywhere in the world than in the US. And only the world than in the US. And only the world than in the US. And only because people in the United States because people in the United States because people in the United States don't know it. It hasn't really don't know it. It hasn't really don't know it. It hasn't really penetrated non-denominational world yet, penetrated non-denominational world yet, penetrated non-denominational world yet, but we are, you know, we're but we are, you know, we're but we are, you know, we're non-denominational. are seeing huge non-denominational. are seeing huge non-denominational. are seeing huge results with it. But basically, it's an results with it. But basically, it's an results with it. But basically, it's an introduction to Christianity centered introduction to Christianity centered introduction to Christianity centered around a meal.

around a meal. around a meal. >> And you're only allowed to come if >> And you're only allowed to come if >> And you're only allowed to come if you're bringing an unchurched friend. you're bringing an unchurched friend. you're bringing an unchurched friend. And we have seen just powerful And we have seen just powerful And we have seen just powerful conversion stories, baptisms like conversion stories, baptisms like conversion stories, baptisms like >> and I've I've got to get more on board >> and I've I've got to get more on board >> and I've I've got to get more on board with Alpha and find out what they're with Alpha and find out what they're with Alpha and find out what they're doing because uh we do a lot of work doing because uh we do a lot of work doing because uh we do a lot of work with an incipient organization called with an incipient organization called with an incipient organization called Global Methodists. They came out of the Global Methodists. They came out of the Global Methodists. They came out of the United Methodist Movement, but they're United Methodist Movement, but they're United Methodist Movement, but they're growing rapidly. A lot of the growth is growing rapidly. A lot of the growth is growing rapidly. A lot of the growth is coming from the closure of the Methodist coming from the closure of the Methodist coming from the closure of the Methodist churches to becoming global Methodists. churches to becoming global Methodists. churches to becoming global Methodists. But I keep on hearing that from my But I keep on hearing that from my But I keep on hearing that from my global Methodist friends. global Methodist friends. global Methodist friends. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Hey. Yeah. >> Hey. Yeah. >> Hey. Yeah. >> If y'all do you know anything about >> If y'all do you know anything about >> If y'all do you know anything about alpha? Well, no. I mean, my dominant alpha? Well, no. I mean, my dominant alpha? Well, no. I mean, my dominant spiritual gift is stupidity. And I just spiritual gift is stupidity. And I just spiritual gift is stupidity. And I just I haven't pursued this and I I really I haven't pursued this and I I really I haven't pursued this and I I really want to pursue it. Uh want to pursue it. Uh want to pursue it. Uh >> oh, that's great. Well, listen. We'll >> oh, that's great. Well, listen. We'll >> oh, that's great. Well, listen. We'll connect offline when we're wrapped up. connect offline when we're wrapped up. connect offline when we're wrapped up. And I'll see if we can make some And I'll see if we can make some And I'll see if we can make some introductions, Tom, because I've just introductions, Tom, because I've just introductions, Tom, because I've just seen God use it again and again. And the seen God use it again and again. And the seen God use it again and again. And the spirit I see behind the leadership at spirit I see behind the leadership at spirit I see behind the leadership at Alpha just is is humbling. If we can Alpha just is is humbling. If we can Alpha just is is humbling. If we can have a little bit more of that in the have a little bit more of that in the have a little bit more of that in the church, I think we're all going to be a church, I think we're all going to be a church, I think we're all going to be a whole lot better. Okay. So, you give me whole lot better. Okay. So, you give me whole lot better. Okay. So, you give me idea. It has to be intentional. Has to idea. It has to be intentional. Has to idea. It has to be intentional. Has to involve your members. It can't just be, involve your members. It can't just be, involve your members. It can't just be, "Hey, next Sunday's outreach Sunday. See "Hey, next Sunday's outreach Sunday. See "Hey, next Sunday's outreach Sunday. See you then." People have to do something.

you then." People have to do something. you then." People have to do something. And um yeah, maybe once in a while you And um yeah, maybe once in a while you And um yeah, maybe once in a while you can create a culture that permeates your can create a culture that permeates your can create a culture that permeates your church where you've got a sustained church where you've got a sustained church where you've got a sustained invite culture, but you would say that's invite culture, but you would say that's invite culture, but you would say that's the minority. Well, the minority. Well, the minority. Well, >> it's a distinct minority. And I would >> it's a distinct minority. And I would >> it's a distinct minority. And I would add to the factors you just described, add to the factors you just described, add to the factors you just described, it has to be prayerful. Um Oh, yeah. it has to be prayerful. Um Oh, yeah. it has to be prayerful. Um Oh, yeah. >> We we assume that, but many times the >> We we assume that, but many times the >> We we assume that, but many times the assumption means we don't do it. And uh assumption means we don't do it. And uh assumption means we don't do it. And uh these things are not the work of these things are not the work of these things are not the work of humanity, it's the work of the Holy humanity, it's the work of the Holy humanity, it's the work of the Holy Spirit. I know I'm stating the obvious, Spirit. I know I'm stating the obvious, Spirit. I know I'm stating the obvious, Carrie, but many times I do too many Carrie, but many times I do too many Carrie, but many times I do too many things where I don't ask God what he things where I don't ask God what he things where I don't ask God what he wants me to do. I just go ahead and wants me to do. I just go ahead and wants me to do. I just go ahead and Tom's power. Tom's power. Tom's power. >> Fair. Same. >> Fair. Same. >> Fair. Same. >> And it just fails miserably. So, uh, it >> And it just fails miserably. So, uh, it >> And it just fails miserably. So, uh, it sounds to me from how you're describing sounds to me from how you're describing sounds to me from how you're describing Alpha and what I need to learn is that Alpha and what I need to learn is that Alpha and what I need to learn is that it has all of those elements together. it has all of those elements together. it has all of those elements together. Intentionality, prayer, unchurched, lost Intentionality, prayer, unchurched, lost Intentionality, prayer, unchurched, lost people, studying the word, coming people, studying the word, coming people, studying the word, coming together, meals. It it it sounds like together, meals. It it it sounds like together, meals. It it it sounds like Alpha was Alpha was it before a lot of Alpha was Alpha was it before a lot of Alpha was Alpha was it before a lot of other things were even though Alpha's other things were even though Alpha's other things were even though Alpha's been around a long time.

been around a long time. been around a long time. >> It's pretty amazing. I've I've vetted it >> It's pretty amazing. I've I've vetted it >> It's pretty amazing. I've I've vetted it on numerous levels from, you know, being on numerous levels from, you know, being on numerous levels from, you know, being part of it to getting to know some of part of it to getting to know some of part of it to getting to know some of their top leadership and I'm I'm just their top leadership and I'm I'm just their top leadership and I'm I'm just totally impressed. Totally impressed. totally impressed. Totally impressed. totally impressed. Totally impressed. And it's all those things. So, because And it's all those things. So, because And it's all those things. So, because you spend so much time with so many you spend so much time with so many you spend so much time with so many different churches and you really have a different churches and you really have a different churches and you really have a heart for the small church, which is heart for the small church, which is heart for the small church, which is really the normal church. I think you really the normal church. I think you really the normal church. I think you normalize that language. You know, I normalize that language. You know, I normalize that language. You know, I think the median attention uh attendance think the median attention uh attendance think the median attention uh attendance now in the US is something like 65 50 now in the US is something like 65 50 now in the US is something like 65 50 people on a Sunday. When you're thinking people on a Sunday. When you're thinking people on a Sunday. When you're thinking of a church like that, and we do have of a church like that, and we do have of a church like that, and we do have people who listen to this podcast who people who listen to this podcast who people who listen to this podcast who don't lead megaurches, right? You know, don't lead megaurches, right? You know, don't lead megaurches, right? You know, we there's a lot of people listening who we there's a lot of people listening who we there's a lot of people listening who are like, "Yeah, that's our church. I'm are like, "Yeah, that's our church. I'm are like, "Yeah, that's our church. I'm trying to turn it around or I've been trying to turn it around or I've been trying to turn it around or I've been there for 20 years and we're not seeing there for 20 years and we're not seeing there for 20 years and we're not seeing momentum." momentum." momentum." How are saying this with great affection How are saying this with great affection How are saying this with great affection and love, how are those leaders getting and love, how are those leaders getting and love, how are those leaders getting in their own way? Oh gosh. I mean, they in their own way? Oh gosh. I mean, they in their own way? Oh gosh. I mean, they they're getting in the wrong way much they're getting in the wrong way much they're getting in the wrong way much like I get on my own way. F first of like I get on my own way. F first of like I get on my own way. F first of all, they have a sense of despair. Many all, they have a sense of despair. Many all, they have a sense of despair. Many of them do. And that sense of despair of them do. And that sense of despair of them do. And that sense of despair leads to greater despair. And I'm not leads to greater despair. And I'm not leads to greater despair. And I'm not being disparaging. No pun intended.

being disparaging. No pun intended. being disparaging. No pun intended. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. >> I'm just simply saying they're going >> I'm just simply saying they're going >> I'm just simply saying they're going into leadership with a mindset that it into leadership with a mindset that it into leadership with a mindset that it cannot be done. Now, why? They've been cannot be done. Now, why? They've been cannot be done. Now, why? They've been beaten up so much. They they many of beaten up so much. They they many of beaten up so much. They they many of them have scars that uh they can touch them have scars that uh they can touch them have scars that uh they can touch and they still hurt metaphorically. And and they still hurt metaphorically. And and they still hurt metaphorically. And so they they now play defense and maybe so they they now play defense and maybe so they they now play defense and maybe even fearful defense more than they play even fearful defense more than they play even fearful defense more than they play offense. Secondly, they get so busy offense. Secondly, they get so busy offense. Secondly, they get so busy doing some things they do not do the doing some things they do not do the doing some things they do not do the main thing. Uh when when we look at the main thing. Uh when when we look at the main thing. Uh when when we look at the book of Acts, we know the story of how book of Acts, we know the story of how book of Acts, we know the story of how they gave their attention to prayer and they gave their attention to prayer and they gave their attention to prayer and the ministry of the word. Well, what the ministry of the word. Well, what the ministry of the word. Well, what happened right after that? There was happened right after that? There was happened right after that? There was another explosion of outreach because another explosion of outreach because another explosion of outreach because the leaders of the church said, "We the leaders of the church said, "We the leaders of the church said, "We cannot give our attention to cannot give our attention to cannot give our attention to everything." And many of these small everything." And many of these small everything." And many of these small church pastors, many pastors, period, church pastors, many pastors, period, church pastors, many pastors, period, I'm not going to just blow it all on the I'm not going to just blow it all on the I'm not going to just blow it all on the small church, but many pastors period, small church, but many pastors period, small church, but many pastors period, they are too busy doing things that they are too busy doing things that they are too busy doing things that don't move the needle whatsoever with don't move the needle whatsoever with don't move the needle whatsoever with the great commission. And as a result, the great commission. And as a result, the great commission. And as a result, the church does not move. Now, the church does not move. Now, the church does not move. Now, >> so what are some examples? Like I still >> so what are some examples? Like I still >> so what are some examples? Like I still hear once in a while about committee hear once in a while about committee hear once in a while about committee meetings and I'm like seriously really meetings and I'm like seriously really meetings and I'm like seriously really committees like is it that kind of committees like is it that kind of committees like is it that kind of stuff? What are they doing?

stuff? What are they doing? stuff? What are they doing? >> Oh it's in in some I'm not going to >> Oh it's in in some I'm not going to >> Oh it's in in some I'm not going to mention the denominations because I have mention the denominations because I have mention the denominations because I have too many friends but in some too many friends but in some too many friends but in some denominations you actually have the denominations you actually have the denominations you actually have the prescribed committees that have to meet prescribed committees that have to meet prescribed committees that have to meet according to your denominational according to your denominational according to your denominational agreement. And I'm working with the agreement. And I'm working with the agreement. And I'm working with the church or our team is working with the church or our team is working with the church or our team is working with the church right now. And uh they they ask a church right now. And uh they they ask a church right now. And uh they they ask a question, what would happen if you question, what would happen if you question, what would happen if you didn't do it? And they said, "Well, didn't do it? And they said, "Well, didn't do it? And they said, "Well, we've never done it. We don't know." we've never done it. We don't know." we've never done it. We don't know." Is is the judgment of God going to fall Is is the judgment of God going to fall Is is the judgment of God going to fall on you? Is a is a bishop going to come on you? Is a is a bishop going to come on you? Is a is a bishop going to come and uh tell you that you cannot belong and uh tell you that you cannot belong and uh tell you that you cannot belong anymore? So yeah uh so many so many anymore? So yeah uh so many so many anymore? So yeah uh so many so many committee meetings so much so much committee meetings so much so much committee meetings so much so much pastoral care that can be pastoral care that can be pastoral care that can be that delegated equipped to others not that delegated equipped to others not that delegated equipped to others not not not avoided but delegated and not not avoided but delegated and not not avoided but delegated and equipped to others. I was I was looking equipped to others. I was I was looking equipped to others. I was I was looking at my um uh some comments uh on my uh at my um uh some comments uh on my uh at my um uh some comments uh on my uh blog today and one of one of the persons blog today and one of one of the persons blog today and one of one of the persons was obviously a church member who did was obviously a church member who did was obviously a church member who did not get visited in the hospital and boy not get visited in the hospital and boy not get visited in the hospital and boy >> I can't remember if it's a he or she >> I can't remember if it's a he or she >> I can't remember if it's a he or she doesn't matter and that person was doesn't matter and that person was doesn't matter and that person was talking about how we left the church talking about how we left the church talking about how we left the church we're now just watching TV we're sending we're now just watching TV we're sending we're now just watching TV we're sending all our money to that person and I all our money to that person and I all our money to that person and I almost did this and I that it would have almost did this and I that it would have almost did this and I that it would have been so ungodly of me I almost wrote and been so ungodly of me I almost wrote and been so ungodly of me I almost wrote and said you are the paradmatic example of said you are the paradmatic example of said you are the paradmatic example of someone who believes church is for me someone who believes church is for me someone who believes church is for me and that's what you pay your money for and that's what you pay your money for and that's what you pay your money for and if you don't get your way, you're and if you don't get your way, you're and if you don't get your way, you're going to leave. I didn't. I'm glad. But going to leave. I didn't. I'm glad. But going to leave. I didn't. I'm glad. But maybe they're listening to this podcast.

maybe they're listening to this podcast. maybe they're listening to this podcast. >> Well, good for you. And you know what? I >> Well, good for you. And you know what? I >> Well, good for you. And you know what? I I can promise you the TV preacher is I can promise you the TV preacher is I can promise you the TV preacher is going to visit you in hospital next going to visit you in hospital next going to visit you in hospital next time. time. time. >> I almost wanted to say that too cuz they >> I almost wanted to say that too cuz they >> I almost wanted to say that too cuz they even named the TV preacher and I say, even named the TV preacher and I say, even named the TV preacher and I say, "Oh my goodness." But that still is "Oh my goodness." But that still is "Oh my goodness." But that still is taking place and uh our data was pretty taking place and uh our data was pretty taking place and uh our data was pretty much following what was taking place much following what was taking place much following what was taking place with a fact study and uh we were faith with a fact study and uh we were faith with a fact study and uh we were faith uh community uh community uh community um my I'm not getting my acronym right um my I'm not getting my acronym right um my I'm not getting my acronym right but but but anyway uh we we were right but but but anyway uh we we were right but but but anyway uh we we were right around 65 and I told Sam who is now around 65 and I told Sam who is now around 65 and I told Sam who is now president of the company I said Sam I'm president of the company I said Sam I'm president of the company I said Sam I'm seeing anecdotal numbers that the number seeing anecdotal numbers that the number seeing anecdotal numbers that the number is going to go down to 50. I'm going to is going to go down to 50. I'm going to is going to go down to 50. I'm going to put that in my book. He said don't do put that in my book. He said don't do put that in my book. He said don't do it. He said, ' Because your book will be it. He said, ' Because your book will be it. He said, ' Because your book will be wrong.' He said, 'It's going to stay 65. wrong.' He said, 'It's going to stay 65. wrong.' He said, 'It's going to stay 65. Wait till the next batch of numbers come Wait till the next batch of numbers come Wait till the next batch of numbers come out. I went ahead of his instincts and I out. I went ahead of his instincts and I out. I went ahead of his instincts and I put 50. So there's one data point in my put 50. So there's one data point in my put 50. So there's one data point in my latest book, The Anxious Generation Goes latest book, The Anxious Generation Goes latest book, The Anxious Generation Goes to Church. That's wrong. It should. to Church. That's wrong. It should. to Church. That's wrong. It should. >> Oh, he was right. It was 65. >> Oh, he was right. It was 65. >> Oh, he was right. It was 65. >> It's still 65, not 50. >> It's still 65, not 50. >> It's still 65, not 50. >> Darn. Wow.

>> Darn. Wow. >> Darn. Wow. >> I I was going based upon trend lines and >> I I was going based upon trend lines and >> I I was going based upon trend lines and he said, "No, the trend line's stopping, he said, "No, the trend line's stopping, he said, "No, the trend line's stopping, Dad. I can tell you." Dad. I can tell you." Dad. I can tell you." >> He said, "It's it's stopping right at >> He said, "It's it's stopping right at >> He said, "It's it's stopping right at 65." You said I wouldn't I wouldn't be 65." You said I wouldn't I wouldn't be 65." You said I wouldn't I wouldn't be surprised to see that number start surprised to see that number start surprised to see that number start edging up in the near future. edging up in the near future. edging up in the near future. >> Well, because you have this thing where >> Well, because you have this thing where >> Well, because you have this thing where the bigger churches are getting bigger the bigger churches are getting bigger the bigger churches are getting bigger like multi-sight is a driver of a lot of like multi-sight is a driver of a lot of like multi-sight is a driver of a lot of growth and then a lot of those smaller growth and then a lot of those smaller growth and then a lot of those smaller churches are just fading away. So, it churches are just fading away. So, it churches are just fading away. So, it kind of makes sense that the median and kind of makes sense that the median and kind of makes sense that the median and average are are going to trend up. average are are going to trend up. average are are going to trend up. >> Yep. So, I'm glad you mentioned your new >> Yep. So, I'm glad you mentioned your new >> Yep. So, I'm glad you mentioned your new book because uh you first of all write book because uh you first of all write book because uh you first of all write books at a rate faster than most people books at a rate faster than most people books at a rate faster than most people read them. And you're talking about the read them. And you're talking about the read them. And you're talking about the anxious generation, which is mostly Gen anxious generation, which is mostly Gen anxious generation, which is mostly Gen Z and some Gen Alpha. And you were Z and some Gen Alpha. And you were Z and some Gen Alpha. And you were really impacted by Jonathan Height's really impacted by Jonathan Height's really impacted by Jonathan Height's work, right? The anxious generation. And work, right? The anxious generation. And work, right? The anxious generation. And you've taken his research and applied it you've taken his research and applied it you've taken his research and applied it to church, which I think is brilliant. to church, which I think is brilliant. to church, which I think is brilliant. >> Well, Jonathan Height is brilliant. And >> Well, Jonathan Height is brilliant. And >> Well, Jonathan Height is brilliant. And for for me to give accolades to someone for for me to give accolades to someone for for me to give accolades to someone whose worldview is so different than whose worldview is so different than whose worldview is so different than mine just to let you know that he is mine just to let you know that he is mine just to let you know that he is Brian he's an agnostic Jew. So uh for Brian he's an agnostic Jew. So uh for Brian he's an agnostic Jew. So uh for for me to take this information and say for me to take this information and say for me to take this information and say this is good for the church is is this is good for the church is is this is good for the church is is accolades to Jonathan height and the accolades to Jonathan height and the accolades to Jonathan height and the work he did. Um I I was working on a work he did. Um I I was working on a work he did. Um I I was working on a book proposal. Uh it was due. I have a book proposal. Uh it was due. I have a book proposal. Uh it was due. I have a certain schedule that my publisher asked certain schedule that my publisher asked certain schedule that my publisher asked me to stay with and so I was on that me to stay with and so I was on that me to stay with and so I was on that schedule and I was about twothirds of schedule and I was about twothirds of schedule and I was about twothirds of the way through uh with the book and um the way through uh with the book and um the way through uh with the book and um the ancient Generation book showed up. I

the ancient Generation book showed up. I the ancient Generation book showed up. I had ordered it, pre-ordered it and it had ordered it, pre-ordered it and it had ordered it, pre-ordered it and it showed up and uh I got my Amazon box out showed up and uh I got my Amazon box out showed up and uh I got my Amazon box out and ripped it open and said I want to and ripped it open and said I want to and ripped it open and said I want to take a little break. Well, I took a long take a little break. Well, I took a long take a little break. Well, I took a long break, several hours, kept on reading break, several hours, kept on reading break, several hours, kept on reading Anxious Generation by Jonathan Height. Anxious Generation by Jonathan Height. Anxious Generation by Jonathan Height. uh 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. I said, "I'm going uh 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. I said, "I'm going uh 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. I said, "I'm going to take a nap." I took a nap and then to take a nap." I took a nap and then to take a nap." I took a nap and then whatever hours followed, I finished the whatever hours followed, I finished the whatever hours followed, I finished the book and I walked away absolutely book and I walked away absolutely book and I walked away absolutely stunned with what I had read. Absolutely stunned with what I had read. Absolutely stunned with what I had read. Absolutely stunned. stunned. stunned. >> He was telling us why a generation is >> He was telling us why a generation is >> He was telling us why a generation is having such mental, emotional problems. having such mental, emotional problems. having such mental, emotional problems. He was nailing it with facts. He was He was nailing it with facts. He was He was nailing it with facts. He was nailing it with data. He was nailing it nailing it with data. He was nailing it nailing it with data. He was nailing it with truth that sometimes hard to take. with truth that sometimes hard to take. with truth that sometimes hard to take. And he he didn't just leave it there. He And he he didn't just leave it there. He And he he didn't just leave it there. He said, "Okay, here's the problem. said, "Okay, here's the problem. said, "Okay, here's the problem. Solution on paper is pretty easy." And Solution on paper is pretty easy." And Solution on paper is pretty easy." And then I extended that. We can talk about then I extended that. We can talk about then I extended that. We can talk about that solution. Of course, a lot of that solution. Of course, a lot of that solution. Of course, a lot of people know what that is, people know what that is, people know what that is, >> but uh I extended that and I said, "What >> but uh I extended that and I said, "What >> but uh I extended that and I said, "What happens when the anxious generation, happens when the anxious generation, happens when the anxious generation, primarily Gen Z, some Gen Alpha, primarily Gen Z, some Gen Alpha, primarily Gen Z, some Gen Alpha, what happens when they go to church?"

what happens when they go to church?" what happens when they go to church?" And so Sam and I did research that began And so Sam and I did research that began And so Sam and I did research that began to trace that and to ask those type of to trace that and to ask those type of to trace that and to ask those type of subjective questions. What happens when subjective questions. What happens when subjective questions. What happens when you go to church? And the the thesis of you go to church? And the the thesis of you go to church? And the the thesis of the book is this. the book is this. the book is this. Christ working through his people in the Christ working through his people in the Christ working through his people in the church is the healthiest thing that can church is the healthiest thing that can church is the healthiest thing that can happen to a young person who is happen to a young person who is happen to a young person who is struggling. Period. struggling. Period. struggling. Period. And you know how pro-church I am too. And you know how pro-church I am too. And you know how pro-church I am too. I'm talking about local church, not just I'm talking about local church, not just I'm talking about local church, not just universal church. And so, you know, is universal church. And so, you know, is universal church. And so, you know, is is is there observational bias there? I is is there observational bias there? I is is there observational bias there? I don't think so. Because even height and don't think so. Because even height and don't think so. Because even height and some like Elon Musk are hinting that some like Elon Musk are hinting that some like Elon Musk are hinting that they want the church to get stronger they want the church to get stronger they want the church to get stronger because the nation's not going to get because the nation's not going to get because the nation's not going to get stronger. The world's not going to get stronger. The world's not going to get stronger. The world's not going to get stronger unless the church stronger unless the church stronger unless the church >> Yeah. There's a secular mourning for the >> Yeah. There's a secular mourning for the >> Yeah. There's a secular mourning for the loss of church that I've been loss of church that I've been loss of church that I've been >> Christian mourning at times. >> Christian mourning at times. >> Christian mourning at times. >> Mhm. Mhm. But they're like, "Hey, we >> Mhm. Mhm. But they're like, "Hey, we >> Mhm. Mhm. But they're like, "Hey, we need the church. Like, this is not good. need the church. Like, this is not good. need the church. Like, this is not good. I'm not a Christian, but it's not good I'm not a Christian, but it's not good I'm not a Christian, but it's not good that the church has gone away. Um, they that the church has gone away. Um, they that the church has gone away. Um, they need us to be vibrant."

need us to be vibrant." need us to be vibrant." >> And that's why Elon Musk declared that >> And that's why Elon Musk declared that >> And that's why Elon Musk declared that he was a cultural Christian. he was a cultural Christian. he was a cultural Christian. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm not so sure the noun is right, Elon, >> I'm not so sure the noun is right, Elon, >> I'm not so sure the noun is right, Elon, but I understand what you're saying. but I understand what you're saying. but I understand what you're saying. One of the threats to um Gen Z that you One of the threats to um Gen Z that you One of the threats to um Gen Z that you talk about because you know anxiety talk about because you know anxiety talk about because you know anxiety fuels a lot of their day-to-day fuels a lot of their day-to-day fuels a lot of their day-to-day existence is polarization. existence is polarization. existence is polarization. So on the one hand it's good to pull So on the one hand it's good to pull So on the one hand it's good to pull that out and highlight it. On the other that out and highlight it. On the other that out and highlight it. On the other hand, I don't think we've ever been more hand, I don't think we've ever been more hand, I don't think we've ever been more polarized as a culture and the church is polarized as a culture and the church is polarized as a culture and the church is not exempt from that. I mean, you look not exempt from that. I mean, you look not exempt from that. I mean, you look at what's happening in the church right at what's happening in the church right at what's happening in the church right now as we record this and everything is now as we record this and everything is now as we record this and everything is polarized. I mean, it doesn't matter polarized. I mean, it doesn't matter polarized. I mean, it doesn't matter what comes out of Washington, what what comes out of Washington, what what comes out of Washington, what happens in a municipality, there's a red happens in a municipality, there's a red happens in a municipality, there's a red side and a blue side and the church is side and a blue side and the church is side and a blue side and the church is is actually leading that charge. I'd is actually leading that charge. I'd is actually leading that charge. I'd love your commentary on that, Tom. What love your commentary on that, Tom. What love your commentary on that, Tom. What are you seeing and what's the danger? are you seeing and what's the danger? are you seeing and what's the danger? there's great danger because there's great danger because there's great danger because polarization is not the biblical way to polarization is not the biblical way to polarization is not the biblical way to to to be one in Christ is the beautiful to to be one in Christ is the beautiful to to be one in Christ is the beautiful is the is the way of way of the Bible is the is the way of way of the Bible is the is the way of way of the Bible and so it is it is very dangerous and so it is it is very dangerous and so it is it is very dangerous what height discovered and I'll get to what height discovered and I'll get to what height discovered and I'll get to your question directly Carrie what your question directly Carrie what your question directly Carrie what height discovered height discovered height discovered >> was that polarization >> was that polarization >> was that polarization was part of the problem that was taking was part of the problem that was taking was part of the problem that was taking place with Gen Z with the anxious place with Gen Z with the anxious place with Gen Z with the anxious generation through their smartphones. So generation through their smartphones. So generation through their smartphones. So on the one hand we have red and blue. We on the one hand we have red and blue. We on the one hand we have red and blue. We have these national issues going on. We

have these national issues going on. We have these national issues going on. We have we have divided nation, divided have we have divided nation, divided have we have divided nation, divided countries, divided families. countries, divided families. countries, divided families. The issues it's it's almost like you can The issues it's it's almost like you can The issues it's it's almost like you can say one thing and someone's going to say say one thing and someone's going to say say one thing and someone's going to say another one and then we're going to have another one and then we're going to have another one and then we're going to have a fight. And and and what is what is a fight. And and and what is what is a fight. And and and what is what is really really disheartening is to see really really disheartening is to see really really disheartening is to see some people say, "Well, my pastor didn't some people say, "Well, my pastor didn't some people say, "Well, my pastor didn't mention X issue, this cultural issue in mention X issue, this cultural issue in mention X issue, this cultural issue in the sermon this week, so I'm leaving the sermon this week, so I'm leaving the sermon this week, so I'm leaving because he he's just he's he's not where because he he's just he's he's not where because he he's just he's he's not where it should be." Well, what happened to it should be." Well, what happened to it should be." Well, what happened to Gen Z? They've got all of this external Gen Z? They've got all of this external Gen Z? They've got all of this external polarization taking place that you polarization taking place that you polarization taking place that you articulated very well. And then you you articulated very well. And then you you articulated very well. And then you you have these this four-fold threat that's have these this four-fold threat that's have these this four-fold threat that's really foundational with the internet, really foundational with the internet, really foundational with the internet, just the the ability to to be anywhere just the the ability to to be anywhere just the the ability to to be anywhere at any time. And and then from the from at any time. And and then from the from at any time. And and then from the from the internet comes the smartphone. And the internet comes the smartphone. And the internet comes the smartphone. And you now have the entire internet in your you now have the entire internet in your you now have the entire internet in your pocket. And then from that comes social pocket. And then from that comes social pocket. And then from that comes social media that was added to it. And social media that was added to it. And social media that was added to it. And social media then starts bringing on this media then starts bringing on this media then starts bringing on this polarization. How? polarization. How? polarization. How? By the algorithms. Mhm.

By the algorithms. Mhm. By the algorithms. Mhm. >> I can you look Carrie, if you went to my >> I can you look Carrie, if you went to my >> I can you look Carrie, if you went to my YouTube channel, YouTube channel, YouTube channel, you would find out I'm a political nut. you would find out I'm a political nut. you would find out I'm a political nut. Not not necessarily red or blue. It's Not not necessarily red or blue. It's Not not necessarily red or blue. It's just I cannot get enough of both sides just I cannot get enough of both sides just I cannot get enough of both sides of finding that. So my YouTube would be of finding that. So my YouTube would be of finding that. So my YouTube would be filled with politics and with Alabama filled with politics and with Alabama filled with politics and with Alabama football and football and football and >> only one will survive into eternity. You >> only one will survive into eternity. You >> only one will survive into eternity. You know that, right? know that, right? know that, right? >> I know that. >> I know that. >> I know that. >> Yeah. And and but what was happening >> Yeah. And and but what was happening >> Yeah. And and but what was happening with these young people is they were with these young people is they were with these young people is they were they're on their phones and the hours they're on their phones and the hours they're on their phones and the hours and the things that were taking place and the things that were taking place and the things that were taking place and they're being fed one point of view and they're being fed one point of view and they're being fed one point of view which is which is their confirmation which is which is their confirmation which is which is their confirmation bias. They're being fed through the bias. They're being fed through the bias. They're being fed through the algorithms and that is putting them in a algorithms and that is putting them in a algorithms and that is putting them in a group and that group is opposed to group and that group is opposed to group and that group is opposed to something or someone all the time. So something or someone all the time. So something or someone all the time. So all the things that were happening on all the things that were happening on all the things that were happening on social media on the smartphone when we social media on the smartphone when we social media on the smartphone when we see young people or old people like me see young people or old people like me see young people or old people like me and they've got this phone in front of and they've got this phone in front of and they've got this phone in front of their face for YouTube viewers uh I mean their face for YouTube viewers uh I mean their face for YouTube viewers uh I mean for those who are listening to this I for those who are listening to this I for those who are listening to this I got a phone in front of my face uh got a phone in front of my face uh got a phone in front of my face uh >> the new iPhone air very uh very brand >> the new iPhone air very uh very brand >> the new iPhone air very uh very brand new new new >> so they they they are being fed >> so they they they are being fed >> so they they they are being fed polarization they're being trained in polarization they're being trained in polarization they're being trained in polarization add to that political iss polarization add to that political iss polarization add to that political iss issues, financial issues, issues, financial issues, issues, financial issues, geopolitical issues, all of the things geopolitical issues, all of the things geopolitical issues, all of the things that are taking place now. And we have a that are taking place now. And we have a that are taking place now. And we have a divided world. And yes, we have many divided world. And yes, we have many divided world. And yes, we have many divided churches. Now, I will say this,

divided churches. Now, I will say this, divided churches. Now, I will say this, among those divided churches, there are among those divided churches, there are among those divided churches, there are some pretty sharp pastors that I think some pretty sharp pastors that I think some pretty sharp pastors that I think are listening to the Holy Spirit more are listening to the Holy Spirit more are listening to the Holy Spirit more than the whims of the whims of society than the whims of the whims of society than the whims of the whims of society and culture. and they are understanding and culture. and they are understanding and culture. and they are understanding that they have to make certain that they that they have to make certain that they that they have to make certain that they don't bring that polarization into their don't bring that polarization into their don't bring that polarization into their church. They can have conviction, they church. They can have conviction, they church. They can have conviction, they can have certainty, they can have can have certainty, they can have can have certainty, they can have biblical certitude, but don't bring that biblical certitude, but don't bring that biblical certitude, but don't bring that polarization into the church. Uh, I'm polarization into the church. Uh, I'm polarization into the church. Uh, I'm going to ask you to name names and we going to ask you to name names and we going to ask you to name names and we can cut this out if you're not can cut this out if you're not can cut this out if you're not comfortable, but who are some of the comfortable, but who are some of the comfortable, but who are some of the pastors that you think are doing a great pastors that you think are doing a great pastors that you think are doing a great job of being biblically clear but job of being biblically clear but job of being biblically clear but resisting the polarization tendencies resisting the polarization tendencies resisting the polarization tendencies >> in the large church? I would say JD >> in the large church? I would say JD >> in the large church? I would say JD Greer. Greer. Greer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He's coming on the show soon. He's got a >> He's coming on the show soon. He's got a >> He's coming on the show soon. He's got a new book about transcending the culture new book about transcending the culture new book about transcending the culture wars. I'm like, you had me at the title. wars. I'm like, you had me at the title. wars. I'm like, you had me at the title. >> I did not know that. But uh you you can >> I did not know that. But uh you you can >> I did not know that. But uh you you can you can listen to JD and you can you can you can listen to JD and you can you can you can listen to JD and you can you can pretty much know that uh uh he he is pretty much know that uh uh he he is pretty much know that uh uh he he is he's there. Um Southeast Christian he's there. Um Southeast Christian he's there. Um Southeast Christian Kyleman. Kyleman. Kyleman. >> Kyle Idleman.

>> Kyle Idleman. >> Kyle Idleman. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh he he would be another one that uh >> Uh he he would be another one that uh >> Uh he he would be another one that uh just again being a larger church. Now just again being a larger church. Now just again being a larger church. Now you go you want to go to to smaller you go you want to go to to smaller you go you want to go to to smaller churches for those of you who never churches for those of you who never churches for those of you who never never have heard of this u um go go to never have heard of this u um go go to never have heard of this u um go go to Sam Rener and oh yeah Sam Rener and oh yeah Sam Rener and oh yeah >> he's he's a church Answers but he's also >> he's he's a church Answers but he's also >> he's he's a church Answers but he's also pastor of a it's not that small about pastor of a it's not that small about pastor of a it's not that small about 800 attendance church and uh Braden in 800 attendance church and uh Braden in 800 attendance church and uh Braden in Florida are his younger brother Jess Florida are his younger brother Jess Florida are his younger brother Jess Rener and again I'm touting the Rainers Rener and again I'm touting the Rainers Rener and again I'm touting the Rainers and there are a lot of others that are and there are a lot of others that are and there are a lot of others that are out there but uh Matt McCra first at out there but uh Matt McCra first at out there but uh Matt McCra first at First Baptist Barto Florida. Uh, First Baptist Barto Florida. Uh, First Baptist Barto Florida. Uh, >> okay. >> okay. >> okay. >> One of the sharpest young pastors I know >> One of the sharpest young pastors I know >> One of the sharpest young pastors I know and he is he he's got it. And he's one and he is he he's got it. And he's one and he is he he's got it. And he's one of these pastors, Carrie, that is in of these pastors, Carrie, that is in of these pastors, Carrie, that is in Barto, Florida that is not in the growth Barto, Florida that is not in the growth Barto, Florida that is not in the growth corridor, and he's holding it steady. corridor, and he's holding it steady. corridor, and he's holding it steady. They've had steady growth, but he wants They've had steady growth, but he wants They've had steady growth, but he wants to stay there. He wants to make a to stay there. He wants to make a to stay there. He wants to make a difference. difference. difference. >> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> I was saying to you, I'm still where I >> I was saying to you, I'm still where I >> I was saying to you, I'm still where I started 30 years ago. I haven't moved. started 30 years ago. I haven't moved. started 30 years ago. I haven't moved. >> That's amazing.

>> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> Yeah. Yeah, it really is. The three >> Yeah. Yeah, it really is. The three >> Yeah. Yeah, it really is. The three original churches are like a five-minute original churches are like a five-minute original churches are like a five-minute drive from my house, which drive from my house, which drive from my house, which >> That's amazing. I love that. >> That's amazing. I love that. >> That's amazing. I love that. >> Yeah, I love it, too. There's a part >> Yeah, I love it, too. There's a part >> Yeah, I love it, too. There's a part that gets sweeter about that every year. that gets sweeter about that every year. that gets sweeter about that every year. So, thank you for those names. I So, thank you for those names. I So, thank you for those names. I appreciate it. And feel free to mention appreciate it. And feel free to mention appreciate it. And feel free to mention your kids. You should. your kids. You should. your kids. You should. What is the difference? What are they? What is the difference? What are they? What is the difference? What are they? How do you survive the polarization? How do you survive the polarization? How do you survive the polarization? Like, how do you make sure that, okay, Like, how do you make sure that, okay, Like, how do you make sure that, okay, I'm not just going to hide from the I'm not just going to hide from the I'm not just going to hide from the culture. I'm not just going to bury my culture. I'm not just going to bury my culture. I'm not just going to bury my head and pretend I don't live in this head and pretend I don't live in this head and pretend I don't live in this era, but I'm not going to participate era, but I'm not going to participate era, but I'm not going to participate in the polarization. That's sort of my in the polarization. That's sort of my in the polarization. That's sort of my first question. first question. first question. >> Well, for one thing, they go to cultural >> Well, for one thing, they go to cultural >> Well, for one thing, they go to cultural issues from scripture, not from sides. issues from scripture, not from sides. issues from scripture, not from sides. >> But so the culture war people, they're >> But so the culture war people, they're >> But so the culture war people, they're like, "Well, the Bible says this on like, "Well, the Bible says this on like, "Well, the Bible says this on abortion. The Bible says this about abortion. The Bible says this about abortion. The Bible says this about voting. The Bible says this. The Bible voting. The Bible says this. The Bible voting. The Bible says this. The Bible says this, but they are already divided. says this, but they are already divided. says this, but they are already divided. They already are on social media say They already are on social media say They already are on social media say using the Bible is a weapon instead of using the Bible is a weapon instead of using the Bible is a weapon instead of an apologia for the gospel. an apologia for the gospel. an apologia for the gospel. >> Weaponized scripture.

>> Weaponized scripture. >> Weaponized scripture. >> It is. It is. So, uh, totally scripture. >> It is. It is. So, uh, totally scripture. >> It is. It is. So, uh, totally scripture. I I can go to any of those pastors that I I can go to any of those pastors that I I can go to any of those pastors that I just named and I can tell you, you I just named and I can tell you, you I just named and I can tell you, you know, where they stand on biblical know, where they stand on biblical know, where they stand on biblical cultural issues, but you know, they're cultural issues, but you know, they're cultural issues, but you know, they're not creating wars with them. Uh, not creating wars with them. Uh, not creating wars with them. Uh, secondly, look at the life of Christ. secondly, look at the life of Christ. secondly, look at the life of Christ. Yeah, there was times that he got really Yeah, there was times that he got really Yeah, there was times that he got really mad at primarily just the religious mad at primarily just the religious mad at primarily just the religious people, not not the world. and and his people, not not the world. and and his people, not not the world. and and his his life was one of one of bringing his life was one of one of bringing his life was one of one of bringing people together, of joy, of unity, of people together, of joy, of unity, of people together, of joy, of unity, of peace. And I don't want to make this peace. And I don't want to make this peace. And I don't want to make this soft and mushy because there there's all soft and mushy because there there's all soft and mushy because there there's all kind of biblical cultural issues that kind of biblical cultural issues that kind of biblical cultural issues that need to be discussed, but you don't have need to be discussed, but you don't have need to be discussed, but you don't have to do it in such a polarized way. A lot to do it in such a polarized way. A lot to do it in such a polarized way. A lot of it is just how you articulate it in of it is just how you articulate it in of it is just how you articulate it in your demeanor and your disposition in your demeanor and your disposition in your demeanor and your disposition in the midst of all of it. So, hey, find go the midst of all of it. So, hey, find go the midst of all of it. So, hey, find go to some of those pastors that we to some of those pastors that we to some of those pastors that we mentioned. And they all they all have uh mentioned. And they all they all have uh mentioned. And they all they all have uh uh you can listen to their sermons uh you can listen to their sermons uh you can listen to their sermons online and just follow what they do. online and just follow what they do. online and just follow what they do. Don't repeat their sermons, but Don't repeat their sermons, but Don't repeat their sermons, but >> Yeah. Yeah. But but you'll pick up the >> Yeah. Yeah. But but you'll pick up the >> Yeah. Yeah. But but you'll pick up the vibe soon enough. vibe soon enough. vibe soon enough. >> Exactly. Exactly.

>> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Yeah. So what that means I guess even as >> Yeah. So what that means I guess even as >> Yeah. So what that means I guess even as you know someone with strong Baptist you know someone with strong Baptist you know someone with strong Baptist ties as yourself is there should be ties as yourself is there should be ties as yourself is there should be people who vote on both sides of the people who vote on both sides of the people who vote on both sides of the aisle in your church. Is that right? aisle in your church. Is that right? aisle in your church. Is that right? >> Yeah. And again for me you would have to >> Yeah. And again for me you would have to >> Yeah. And again for me you would have to tell me you'd have to ask me you know tell me you'd have to ask me you know tell me you'd have to ask me you know what the particular issue is because you what the particular issue is because you what the particular issue is because you know if if if if there's a gospel know if if if if there's a gospel know if if if if there's a gospel centric issue and again people define centric issue and again people define centric issue and again people define that a little bit differently but that a little bit differently but that a little bit differently but there's if there's a gospel centric there's if there's a gospel centric there's if there's a gospel centric issue I would hope that my people would issue I would hope that my people would issue I would hope that my people would or people in my church would not be or people in my church would not be or people in my church would not be voting on a particular side that was not voting on a particular side that was not voting on a particular side that was not biblical but uh uh yeah on many biblical but uh uh yeah on many biblical but uh uh yeah on many >> you're not kicking them out if they do. >> you're not kicking them out if they do. >> you're not kicking them out if they do. >> No not kicking them out. I hope I don't >> No not kicking them out. I hope I don't >> No not kicking them out. I hope I don't even have to know what they're doing and even have to know what they're doing and even have to know what they're doing and and necessarily how they're voting. I and necessarily how they're voting. I and necessarily how they're voting. I hope they would feel comfortable in my hope they would feel comfortable in my hope they would feel comfortable in my church or in my son's church. And I church or in my son's church. And I church or in my son's church. And I think they do um regardless of their think they do um regardless of their think they do um regardless of their positions. positions. positions. >> Yeah. So when when you have a non let's >> Yeah. So when when you have a non let's >> Yeah. So when when you have a non let's say polarized church where people we did say polarized church where people we did say polarized church where people we did this event a couple weeks ago in Dallas this event a couple weeks ago in Dallas this event a couple weeks ago in Dallas as we're recording this called the art as we're recording this called the art as we're recording this called the art of leadership live and I want to be of leadership live and I want to be of leadership live and I want to be careful what I say because this is part careful what I say because this is part careful what I say because this is part of the secret sauce but you have people of the secret sauce but you have people of the secret sauce but you have people who have different views on today's who have different views on today's who have different views on today's issues sitting around the same table issues sitting around the same table issues sitting around the same table getting along praying for each other getting along praying for each other getting along praying for each other encouraging each other learning from encouraging each other learning from encouraging each other learning from each other and it's almost like the the each other and it's almost like the the each other and it's almost like the the the storm has stopped for a minute and the storm has stopped for a minute and the storm has stopped for a minute and we just spend three days together and we just spend three days together and we just spend three days together and then we go back out into the storm. And then we go back out into the storm. And then we go back out into the storm. And I see that as a hopeful model of church,

I see that as a hopeful model of church, I see that as a hopeful model of church, you know, it's theology on a tether. You you know, it's theology on a tether. You you know, it's theology on a tether. You know, not I I don't believe it or not know, not I I don't believe it or not know, not I I don't believe it or not have a monopoly on truth. I don't know have a monopoly on truth. I don't know have a monopoly on truth. I don't know whether you do, Tom, but I I do not. Um whether you do, Tom, but I I do not. Um whether you do, Tom, but I I do not. Um and so there's kind of extremes where and so there's kind of extremes where and so there's kind of extremes where it's like I'm not sure that's it's like I'm not sure that's it's like I'm not sure that's Christianity. No, that's definitely not Christianity. No, that's definitely not Christianity. No, that's definitely not Christianity. But there's there's a Christianity. But there's there's a Christianity. But there's there's a little more play in the system than little more play in the system than little more play in the system than perhaps we give it credit for. And when perhaps we give it credit for. And when perhaps we give it credit for. And when you have that kind of environment in you have that kind of environment in you have that kind of environment in your church, what does that do according your church, what does that do according your church, what does that do according to your research and study uh to to your research and study uh to to your research and study uh to generation Z? generation Z? generation Z? >> Well, generation Z will want to see that >> Well, generation Z will want to see that >> Well, generation Z will want to see that you love them. That sounds trit. That you love them. That sounds trit. That you love them. That sounds trit. That sounds that sounds simplistic. But if sounds that sounds simplistic. But if sounds that sounds simplistic. But if you're focused on hotbed culture, hot you're focused on hotbed culture, hot you're focused on hotbed culture, hot button cultural issues and not on caring button cultural issues and not on caring button cultural issues and not on caring for them and loving them, your focus is for them and loving them, your focus is for them and loving them, your focus is going to be off and they will know it. going to be off and they will know it. going to be off and they will know it. They will know whether or not you care They will know whether or not you care They will know whether or not you care or whether or not you care more about an or whether or not you care more about an or whether or not you care more about an issue than the person. And Carrie, what issue than the person. And Carrie, what issue than the person. And Carrie, what you described is precisely it. You had you described is precisely it. You had you described is precisely it. You had people come together in person and you people come together in person and you people come together in person and you had people pray for each other. It's had people pray for each other. It's had people pray for each other. It's amazing what happens when people come amazing what happens when people come amazing what happens when people come together and talk and pray. And it's together and talk and pray. And it's together and talk and pray. And it's amazing what Gen Z will do when they see amazing what Gen Z will do when they see amazing what Gen Z will do when they see that that is your MMO and that is how that that is your MMO and that is how that that is your MMO and that is how your church moves forward in the power your church moves forward in the power your church moves forward in the power of the Holy Spirit.

of the Holy Spirit. of the Holy Spirit. >> So, it's almost like, >> So, it's almost like, >> So, it's almost like, you know, they need to know that you you know, they need to know that you you know, they need to know that you love them more than you love what they love them more than you love what they love them more than you love what they think. think. think. boy, you you need to go clip that and boy, you you need to go clip that and boy, you you need to go clip that and put it on a board and and and just save put it on a board and and and just save put it on a board and and and just save it somewhere. You you need to know they it somewhere. You you need to know they it somewhere. You you need to know they need to know that you love them more need to know that you love them more need to know that you love them more than what you think. than what you think. than what you think. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because I think that's what the cultures >> Because I think that's what the cultures >> Because I think that's what the cultures I can only love you if you agree with I can only love you if you agree with I can only love you if you agree with me. I can only we can only share a meal, me. I can only we can only share a meal, me. I can only we can only share a meal, Tom, if you and I are 100% aligned on Tom, if you and I are 100% aligned on Tom, if you and I are 100% aligned on these issues. One of the most dynamic these issues. One of the most dynamic these issues. One of the most dynamic Christians I know that gets that is this Christians I know that gets that is this Christians I know that gets that is this girl that I married 48 years ago called girl that I married 48 years ago called girl that I married 48 years ago called Nelly Joe. And I have been so amazed, Nelly Joe. And I have been so amazed, Nelly Joe. And I have been so amazed, for example, I'll just go in and say for example, I'll just go in and say for example, I'll just go in and say this at the number of friends that she this at the number of friends that she this at the number of friends that she has in the homosexual community and in has in the homosexual community and in has in the homosexual community and in the Nashville area, in the artist the Nashville area, in the artist the Nashville area, in the artist community community community >> and uh they know exactly her views on >> and uh they know exactly her views on >> and uh they know exactly her views on sexuality. They know exactly where she sexuality. They know exactly where she sexuality. They know exactly where she is, is, is, >> but they also know that she loves them >> but they also know that she loves them >> but they also know that she loves them as a person. They also know that she as a person. They also know that she as a person. They also know that she loves them for who they are, as a person loves them for who they are, as a person loves them for who they are, as a person created in the image of God and they created in the image of God and they created in the image of God and they accept her and they listen to her and accept her and they listen to her and accept her and they listen to her and she listens to them. Uh, I just I wish I she listens to them. Uh, I just I wish I she listens to them. Uh, I just I wish I would follow the example of Nelly Joe a would follow the example of Nelly Joe a would follow the example of Nelly Joe a lot more and I would be much better. I lot more and I would be much better. I lot more and I would be much better. I mean, 48 years, you'd think I'd get it mean, 48 years, you'd think I'd get it mean, 48 years, you'd think I'd get it by now, but no.

by now, but no. by now, but no. >> But that would get you kicked out of >> But that would get you kicked out of >> But that would get you kicked out of churches for even saying that, Tom. churches for even saying that, Tom. churches for even saying that, Tom. Yeah, but Yeah, but Yeah, but >> and you know that churches in your tribe >> and you know that churches in your tribe >> and you know that churches in your tribe would kick you out. would kick you out. would kick you out. >> Well, again, I'm I'm non- >> Well, again, I'm I'm non- >> Well, again, I'm I'm non- denominational, so you can decide where denominational, so you can decide where denominational, so you can decide where my tribe. my tribe. my tribe. >> No, I know. I know. >> No, I know. I know. >> No, I know. I know. >> But but I understand what you're saying. >> But but I understand what you're saying. >> But but I understand what you're saying. Yes. Yes. And some of those churches Yes. Yes. And some of those churches Yes. Yes. And some of those churches that can, and those are the churches, by that can, and those are the churches, by that can, and those are the churches, by the way, that may have burst of growth the way, that may have burst of growth the way, that may have burst of growth based upon issues, but ultimately based upon issues, but ultimately based upon issues, but ultimately they're going to decline because they're they're going to decline because they're they're going to decline because they're not reaching their community. not reaching their community. not reaching their community. I got some you you your your your I got some you you your your your I got some you you your your your research is always interesting to me and research is always interesting to me and research is always interesting to me and I want to get to a couple of specific I want to get to a couple of specific I want to get to a couple of specific findings, but what else did you learn findings, but what else did you learn findings, but what else did you learn about Gen Z that shocked you? about Gen Z that shocked you? about Gen Z that shocked you? They are so open to something different They are so open to something different They are so open to something different than what they're doing now. than what they're doing now. than what they're doing now. I knew that that was a possibility. But I knew that that was a possibility. But I knew that that was a possibility. But for for us to interview them and for for for us to interview them and for for for us to interview them and for them to have a openness to doing them to have a openness to doing them to have a openness to doing something totally different than the something totally different than the something totally different than the life they've had and that can be defined life they've had and that can be defined life they've had and that can be defined in a number of ways and a number of in a number of ways and a number of in a number of ways and a number of aberant movements can capture that. But aberant movements can capture that. But aberant movements can capture that. But also the church can capture that because also the church can capture that because also the church can capture that because if if they get connected with a fellow if if they get connected with a fellow if if they get connected with a fellow Christian, if they get connected with a Christian, if they get connected with a Christian, if they get connected with a fellow Christian in the fellowship of a fellow Christian in the fellowship of a fellow Christian in the fellowship of a church, well, that's the that's the church, well, that's the that's the church, well, that's the that's the thesis of the book. You know, the thesis of the book. You know, the thesis of the book. You know, the ancient generation goes to church. I was ancient generation goes to church. I was ancient generation goes to church. I was absolutely amazed that they had that absolutely amazed that they had that absolutely amazed that they had that openness. Here's another thing. They openness. Here's another thing. They openness. Here's another thing. They like the church more than the church like the church more than the church like the church more than the church likes the church. At least from

likes the church. At least from likes the church. At least from >> that. Okay, I'm glad you raised it. I >> that. Okay, I'm glad you raised it. I >> that. Okay, I'm glad you raised it. I wanted to get to that. Can you explain wanted to get to that. Can you explain wanted to get to that. Can you explain that unchurched people actually value that unchurched people actually value that unchurched people actually value the church more than Christians do? I the church more than Christians do? I the church more than Christians do? I couldn't believe the stats. couldn't believe the stats. couldn't believe the stats. >> Well, it takes a little peeling back of >> Well, it takes a little peeling back of >> Well, it takes a little peeling back of the onion layers. There there there is the onion layers. There there there is the onion layers. There there there is something that is there. And I'll just something that is there. And I'll just something that is there. And I'll just do it in my typical simplistic way do it in my typical simplistic way do it in my typical simplistic way because I don't have another way. So, because I don't have another way. So, because I don't have another way. So, what we found is this is we found the what we found is this is we found the what we found is this is we found the reverse halo effect. And uh here's an reverse halo effect. And uh here's an reverse halo effect. And uh here's an example. My son, my middle son Art when example. My son, my middle son Art when example. My son, my middle son Art when he was a teenager, he's now 42. when he he was a teenager, he's now 42. when he he was a teenager, he's now 42. when he was a teenager, he would tell me looking was a teenager, he would tell me looking was a teenager, he would tell me looking back, "Dad, I thought our home was back, "Dad, I thought our home was back, "Dad, I thought our home was really messed up." I mean, I thought really messed up." I mean, I thought really messed up." I mean, I thought y'all were strict and and backwards and y'all were strict and and backwards and y'all were strict and and backwards and you know, I just I really thought my you know, I just I really thought my you know, I just I really thought my home and then I got outside the home and home and then I got outside the home and home and then I got outside the home and I found out, yeah, it wasn't so bad I found out, yeah, it wasn't so bad I found out, yeah, it wasn't so bad after all. In fact, it it it may have after all. In fact, it it it may have after all. In fact, it it it may have been good. What happens is the reverse been good. What happens is the reverse been good. What happens is the reverse halo effect is church members see their halo effect is church members see their halo effect is church members see their own churches or perhaps their perception own churches or perhaps their perception own churches or perhaps their perception of their own church and other churches of their own church and other churches of their own church and other churches and that closeup view can cause a and that closeup view can cause a and that closeup view can cause a negativity more quickly than someone negativity more quickly than someone negativity more quickly than someone with an open outside view. And where we with an open outside view. And where we with an open outside view. And where we are right now is we got members who are are right now is we got members who are are right now is we got members who are more critical of the church than those more critical of the church than those more critical of the church than those who are on the outside. There's a danger who are on the outside. There's a danger who are on the outside. There's a danger there too. And the danger is you don't there too. And the danger is you don't there too. And the danger is you don't think enough of what God is doing in think enough of what God is doing in think enough of what God is doing in your church to invite people because you your church to invite people because you your church to invite people because you are ashamed of your church. That's the are ashamed of your church. That's the are ashamed of your church. That's the extreme. But it does happen again and extreme. But it does happen again and extreme. But it does happen again and again. But we call it the reverse halo.

again. But we call it the reverse halo. again. But we call it the reverse halo. You just you you you are within the You just you you you are within the You just you you you are within the church and you see the negative and not church and you see the negative and not church and you see the negative and not the positive. Those on the outside the positive. Those on the outside the positive. Those on the outside aren't seeing as much negative as you aren't seeing as much negative as you aren't seeing as much negative as you are. are. are. >> Right. So they may actually be open to >> Right. So they may actually be open to >> Right. So they may actually be open to attending your church than you would be attending your church than you would be attending your church than you would be to inviting them. to inviting them. to inviting them. >> Boy, wait. Get get your producer out, >> Boy, wait. Get get your producer out, >> Boy, wait. Get get your producer out, Carrie. Just just start capturing all Carrie. Just just start capturing all Carrie. Just just start capturing all these things. Can can we can we scroll these things. Can can we can we scroll these things. Can can we can we scroll it on the bottom of the screen as you it on the bottom of the screen as you it on the bottom of the screen as you said? said? said? >> No, your your your your research is >> No, your your your your research is >> No, your your your your research is fascinating and it's really got me like fascinating and it's really got me like fascinating and it's really got me like thinking about that because I think thinking about that because I think thinking about that because I think that's true, right? And some of that is, that's true, right? And some of that is, that's true, right? And some of that is, you know, your parents didn't go to you know, your parents didn't go to you know, your parents didn't go to church. If you're 18 or 20, your parents church. If you're 18 or 20, your parents church. If you're 18 or 20, your parents didn't go to church. Your grandparents didn't go to church. Your grandparents didn't go to church. Your grandparents kind of did, but it was quaint. So, you kind of did, but it was quaint. So, you kind of did, but it was quaint. So, you don't have the I had a terrible church don't have the I had a terrible church don't have the I had a terrible church experience experience experience >> that so many millennials and Gen X did >> that so many millennials and Gen X did >> that so many millennials and Gen X did when they were growing up and then they when they were growing up and then they when they were growing up and then they kind of left, but now we're a couple kind of left, but now we're a couple kind of left, but now we're a couple generations down the road and they're generations down the road and they're generations down the road and they're they're pretty open. Um, okay. More they're pretty open. Um, okay. More they're pretty open. Um, okay. More research. This is just interesting research. This is just interesting research. This is just interesting because I'm a nerd on this stuff. A because I'm a nerd on this stuff. A because I'm a nerd on this stuff. A typical church, you say, loses 32 in typical church, you say, loses 32 in typical church, you say, loses 32 in attendance for every 100 attenders a attendance for every 100 attenders a attendance for every 100 attenders a year. Did I get that right?

year. Did I get that right? year. Did I get that right? >> Mhm. You got that right. A third of your >> Mhm. You got that right. A third of your >> Mhm. You got that right. A third of your church just disappears every year church just disappears every year church just disappears every year without you doing anything. What does without you doing anything. What does without you doing anything. What does that actually mean? Can you explain that actually mean? Can you explain that actually mean? Can you explain that? that? that? >> A third of your church doesn't >> A third of your church doesn't >> A third of your church doesn't necessarily disappear. They just stop necessarily disappear. They just stop necessarily disappear. They just stop attending or disappear. One of the two. attending or disappear. One of the two. attending or disappear. One of the two. >> Right. Right. But they could move out or >> Right. Right. But they could move out or >> Right. Right. But they could move out or obviously people die or you know obviously people die or you know obviously people die or you know somebody gets mad at you and goes and somebody gets mad at you and goes and somebody gets mad at you and goes and starts watching TV preachers. It's that starts watching TV preachers. It's that starts watching TV preachers. It's that kind of attrition we're talking about. kind of attrition we're talking about. kind of attrition we're talking about. >> Yeah. And it's it's four factors. One is >> Yeah. And it's it's four factors. One is >> Yeah. And it's it's four factors. One is death. one is moving to another church death. one is moving to another church death. one is moving to another church within your community and one is moving within your community and one is moving within your community and one is moving outside of your community. And then the outside of your community. And then the outside of your community. And then the fourth one is the big one and that's fourth one is the big one and that's fourth one is the big one and that's attendance frequency. If you have a attendance frequency. If you have a attendance frequency. If you have a church of 100 people and they attend church of 100 people and they attend church of 100 people and they attend every Sunday, presuming that's your every Sunday, presuming that's your every Sunday, presuming that's your worship day, your attendance is 100. You worship day, your attendance is 100. You worship day, your attendance is 100. You take that same group of people and they take that same group of people and they take that same group of people and they attend every other Sunday, your attend every other Sunday, your attend every other Sunday, your attendance is 50. And you haven't lost a attendance is 50. And you haven't lost a attendance is 50. And you haven't lost a person on the role. If you have a role, person on the role. If you have a role, person on the role. If you have a role, but you haven't lost a person that but you haven't lost a person that but you haven't lost a person that identifies with your church. What has identifies with your church. What has identifies with your church. What has happened is the frequency of attendance happened is the frequency of attendance happened is the frequency of attendance is the number one factor in church is the number one factor in church is the number one factor in church decline. Sam Reiner began to see this 15 decline. Sam Reiner began to see this 15 decline. Sam Reiner began to see this 15 years ago. Started uh telling people years ago. Started uh telling people years ago. Started uh telling people about it and most people weren't about it and most people weren't about it and most people weren't listening to him including me and listening to him including me and listening to him including me and finally uh everybody's a lot of folks finally uh everybody's a lot of folks finally uh everybody's a lot of folks are beginning to say that's what's are beginning to say that's what's are beginning to say that's what's happening to our church. We have elders happening to our church. We have elders happening to our church. We have elders who were here every Sunday and now who were here every Sunday and now who were here every Sunday and now they're here every other Sunday and they're here every other Sunday and they're here every other Sunday and those are some of the most committed those are some of the most committed those are some of the most committed members presumably in the church. So members presumably in the church. So members presumably in the church. So yeah, you're losing a third of your yeah, you're losing a third of your yeah, you're losing a third of your church, but the biggest number are those church, but the biggest number are those church, but the biggest number are those who are not there. That's an attendance

who are not there. That's an attendance who are not there. That's an attendance number. That's not a membership number. number. That's not a membership number. number. That's not a membership number. So that's where you're losing them in So that's where you're losing them in So that's where you're losing them in the attendance factor. the attendance factor. the attendance factor. >> Ah so even if they haven't left, they're >> Ah so even if they haven't left, they're >> Ah so even if they haven't left, they're not there kind of. not there kind of. not there kind of. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Yeah. My parents would be a good >> Yeah. My parents would be a good >> Yeah. My parents would be a good example. You know, they moved into an example. You know, they moved into an example. You know, they moved into an assisted living facility. Uh they're assisted living facility. Uh they're assisted living facility. Uh they're very much behind the mission of the very much behind the mission of the very much behind the mission of the church, but they haven't been there in church, but they haven't been there in church, but they haven't been there in person in like the better part of a year person in like the better part of a year person in like the better part of a year just because of health just because of health just because of health >> challenges, etc. etc. Okay. >> challenges, etc. etc. Okay. >> challenges, etc. etc. Okay. >> And some some of the church members are >> And some some of the church members are >> And some some of the church members are in different rhythms that are less in different rhythms that are less in different rhythms that are less frequent and you can you can look at all frequent and you can you can look at all frequent and you can you can look at all the factors behind it, but it's a the factors behind it, but it's a the factors behind it, but it's a reality. reality. reality. >> Well, even um you know the the funny >> Well, even um you know the the funny >> Well, even um you know the the funny thing is I think it was Mark Batterson thing is I think it was Mark Batterson thing is I think it was Mark Batterson who told me with the high turnover in DC who told me with the high turnover in DC who told me with the high turnover in DC like about every four years everybody like about every four years everybody like about every four years everybody loses their job and starts over again loses their job and starts over again loses their job and starts over again and then you've got military and you got and then you've got military and you got and then you've got military and you got all kinds of stuff in DC. He will by not all kinds of stuff in DC. He will by not all kinds of stuff in DC. He will by not even angry people leaving his church and even angry people leaving his church and even angry people leaving his church and it's a pretty young church. 20% are gone it's a pretty young church. 20% are gone it's a pretty young church. 20% are gone every year. So if he doesn't grow by 20% every year. So if he doesn't grow by 20% every year. So if he doesn't grow by 20% he's at 0% growth. Now they've had a he's at 0% growth. Now they've had a he's at 0% growth. Now they've had a really good track record in that area.

really good track record in that area. really good track record in that area. But if you think about it, there's not a But if you think about it, there's not a But if you think about it, there's not a lot of companies that automatically lose lot of companies that automatically lose lot of companies that automatically lose 20% right out of the gate on January 20% right out of the gate on January 20% right out of the gate on January 1st. But that's the reality for 1st. But that's the reality for 1st. But that's the reality for churches, right? churches, right? churches, right? >> That's the reality at the attendance >> That's the reality at the attendance >> That's the reality at the attendance level. The membership level would be a level. The membership level would be a level. The membership level would be a whole different thing if you count whole different thing if you count whole different thing if you count members in your church. But at the members in your church. But at the members in your church. But at the attendance level, the the the median is attendance level, the the the median is attendance level, the the the median is going to be about one out of three will going to be about one out of three will going to be about one out of three will not be there next year not be there next year not be there next year >> on a typical Sunday. Wow. Okay. Other >> on a typical Sunday. Wow. Okay. Other >> on a typical Sunday. Wow. Okay. Other stats. Um stats. Um stats. Um Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The number of church Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The number of church Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The number of church members it requires to affect one members it requires to affect one members it requires to affect one conversion. So in 1980, and again tell conversion. So in 1980, and again tell conversion. So in 1980, and again tell me if I got this wrong, but I was trying me if I got this wrong, but I was trying me if I got this wrong, but I was trying to copy it. 41 members in a church would to copy it. 41 members in a church would to copy it. 41 members in a church would result in one conversion. In 2010, it result in one conversion. In 2010, it result in one conversion. In 2010, it was seven took 78 church members before was seven took 78 church members before was seven took 78 church members before you had one conversion. Now it's 93 you had one conversion. Now it's 93 you had one conversion. Now it's 93 church members to produce one church members to produce one church members to produce one conversion. I've never seen a stat like conversion. I've never seen a stat like conversion. I've never seen a stat like that. What What does that mean, Tom?

that. What What does that mean, Tom? that. What What does that mean, Tom? >> That goes back to 1996 in my research. >> That goes back to 1996 in my research. >> That goes back to 1996 in my research. Now if I have 1980 I'm using other Now if I have 1980 I'm using other Now if I have 1980 I'm using other research but 1996 I wrote a book called research but 1996 I wrote a book called research but 1996 I wrote a book called effective evangelistic churches and I effective evangelistic churches and I effective evangelistic churches and I said how can I determine that tells you said how can I determine that tells you said how can I determine that tells you something I'm really old Carrie I am something I'm really old Carrie I am something I'm really old Carrie I am really really I wrote a book on really really I wrote a book on really really I wrote a book on evangelism in 1996 evangelism in 1996 evangelism in 1996 but that that book we said how can we but that that book we said how can we but that that book we said how can we tell if a church is evangelistic well tell if a church is evangelistic well tell if a church is evangelistic well can we count conversions however that is can we count conversions however that is can we count conversions however that is baptisms professions of faith uh baptisms professions of faith uh baptisms professions of faith uh whatever number we're using can can we whatever number we're using can can we whatever number we're using can can we yeah but how effective is Well, let's yeah but how effective is Well, let's yeah but how effective is Well, let's look at it relative to members. How many look at it relative to members. How many look at it relative to members. How many members per baptism are there? Or maybe members per baptism are there? Or maybe members per baptism are there? Or maybe ask it colloally. How many people in our ask it colloally. How many people in our ask it colloally. How many people in our church does it take to reach one person church does it take to reach one person church does it take to reach one person for Christ in a year? I don't like the for Christ in a year? I don't like the for Christ in a year? I don't like the number as much as I used to. number as much as I used to. number as much as I used to. Well, let me put it this way. I never Well, let me put it this way. I never Well, let me put it this way. I never liked it because it was going up. But I liked it because it was going up. But I liked it because it was going up. But I don't use that number as much as I used don't use that number as much as I used don't use that number as much as I used to, even though it's in the book because to, even though it's in the book because to, even though it's in the book because membership is not as a meaningful number membership is not as a meaningful number membership is not as a meaningful number as attendance these days. as attendance these days. as attendance these days. >> Yeah. And I I'm working more and more on >> Yeah. And I I'm working more and more on >> Yeah. And I I'm working more and more on conversions to attendance. But just as a conversions to attendance. But just as a conversions to attendance. But just as a just as an example, just as an example, just as an example, 40 it used to take few decades ago 40 40 it used to take few decades ago 40 40 it used to take few decades ago 40 church members a year to reach one church members a year to reach one church members a year to reach one person for Christ. That's not very good.

person for Christ. That's not very good. person for Christ. That's not very good. That means if you're in a church of 80, That means if you're in a church of 80, That means if you're in a church of 80, you'll reach two people you'll reach two people you'll reach two people >> mostly. Is is the undercurrent >> mostly. Is is the undercurrent >> mostly. Is is the undercurrent underneath these stats? And I want you underneath these stats? And I want you underneath these stats? And I want you to finish your thought because most to finish your thought because most to finish your thought because most people are just sitting back, relaxing, people are just sitting back, relaxing, people are just sitting back, relaxing, enjoying the flight, not inviting their enjoying the flight, not inviting their enjoying the flight, not inviting their friends. friends. friends. your friends and none and be intentional your friends and none and be intentional your friends and none and be intentional about being unashamed of the gospel. about being unashamed of the gospel. about being unashamed of the gospel. Being unashamed of the gospel does not Being unashamed of the gospel does not Being unashamed of the gospel does not mean that you're going to get in mean that you're going to get in mean that you're going to get in someone's face, offend them, someone's face, offend them, someone's face, offend them, >> uh except for the gospel itself. Um it >> uh except for the gospel itself. Um it >> uh except for the gospel itself. Um it is it is a lot less threatening to the is it is a lot less threatening to the is it is a lot less threatening to the unchurched it being the sharing of our unchurched it being the sharing of our unchurched it being the sharing of our faith than it is to the person who's faith than it is to the person who's faith than it is to the person who's receiving the sharing of their faith. receiving the sharing of their faith. receiving the sharing of their faith. >> Yeah, that's fair. Wow. And so now it >> Yeah, that's fair. Wow. And so now it >> Yeah, that's fair. Wow. And so now it takes well more than double. And is that takes well more than double. And is that takes well more than double. And is that just because we've gotten more lethargic just because we've gotten more lethargic just because we've gotten more lethargic and less evangelical or evangelistic? and less evangelical or evangelistic? and less evangelical or evangelistic? >> Yeah, that's a simple explanation. We >> Yeah, that's a simple explanation. We >> Yeah, that's a simple explanation. We are much less evangelistic than we were are much less evangelistic than we were are much less evangelistic than we were many years ago. Now, here's another part many years ago. Now, here's another part many years ago. Now, here's another part of it. Many churches have redefined of it. Many churches have redefined of it. Many churches have redefined evangelism in a way that doesn't reach evangelism in a way that doesn't reach evangelism in a way that doesn't reach people for Christ.

people for Christ. people for Christ. >> Oh, what does that mean? >> Oh, what does that mean? >> Oh, what does that mean? >> Well, let's just let's let's just look >> Well, let's just let's let's just look >> Well, let's just let's let's just look at it. I was we were working with a a at it. I was we were working with a a at it. I was we were working with a a church that had an incredible ministry church that had an incredible ministry church that had an incredible ministry in their community and uh that it it in their community and uh that it it in their community and uh that it it included food, it included clothes, it included food, it included clothes, it included food, it included clothes, it included a lot of other things than the included a lot of other things than the included a lot of other things than the typical uh ministry with clothes and typical uh ministry with clothes and typical uh ministry with clothes and food and and and we said, "Well, how food and and and we said, "Well, how food and and and we said, "Well, how many people are y'all reaching for many people are y'all reaching for many people are y'all reaching for Christ with this?" And the answer was Christ with this?" And the answer was Christ with this?" And the answer was none. Well, they were put expending none. Well, they were put expending none. Well, they were put expending resources connecting with people. Could resources connecting with people. Could resources connecting with people. Could they have reached people for Christ? they have reached people for Christ? they have reached people for Christ? Somewhat. There were socioeconomic Somewhat. There were socioeconomic Somewhat. There were socioeconomic differences, but somewhat they could differences, but somewhat they could differences, but somewhat they could have. There was no intentionality there. have. There was no intentionality there. have. There was no intentionality there. But they were satisfied that their But they were satisfied that their But they were satisfied that their ministry, which was on a human needs ministry, which was on a human needs ministry, which was on a human needs level, was also evangelism, which was on level, was also evangelism, which was on level, was also evangelism, which was on eternal need, but there was no eternal need, but there was no eternal need, but there was no intentionality. intentionality. intentionality. >> Get Christ into the picture. A lot of >> Get Christ into the picture. A lot of >> Get Christ into the picture. A lot of churches have ministries that they think churches have ministries that they think churches have ministries that they think are evangelistic, but they are not. I'm are evangelistic, but they are not. I'm are evangelistic, but they are not. I'm working with an entire denomination that working with an entire denomination that working with an entire denomination that is trying to reverse that mindset right is trying to reverse that mindset right is trying to reverse that mindset right now.

now. now. >> Right. We did something good in the >> Right. We did something good in the >> Right. We did something good in the community. I don't know why people community. I don't know why people community. I don't know why people aren't coming to Jesus. aren't coming to Jesus. aren't coming to Jesus. >> I asked another church um a year and a >> I asked another church um a year and a >> I asked another church um a year and a half ago in a consultation. What is your half ago in a consultation. What is your half ago in a consultation. What is your most evangelistic ministry? Well, they most evangelistic ministry? Well, they most evangelistic ministry? Well, they had this big community event that had this big community event that had this big community event that included barbecues and uh just so many included barbecues and uh just so many included barbecues and uh just so many things going on and they had hundreds things going on and they had hundreds things going on and they had hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds and they had upon hundreds upon hundreds and they had upon hundreds upon hundreds and they had zero who came to the church even came to zero who came to the church even came to zero who came to the church even came to the church much less became followers of the church much less became followers of the church much less became followers of Christ. I do that get that question a Christ. I do that get that question a Christ. I do that get that question a lot from church leaders who will say lot from church leaders who will say lot from church leaders who will say yeah we do this big outreach event you yeah we do this big outreach event you yeah we do this big outreach event you know we do something in the park picnic know we do something in the park picnic know we do something in the park picnic in the park or we do you know a concert in the park or we do you know a concert in the park or we do you know a concert or we do something for the community a or we do something for the community a or we do something for the community a fun fair you name it but it results in fun fair you name it but it results in fun fair you name it but it results in zero growth. Why is that a pattern? What zero growth. Why is that a pattern? What zero growth. Why is that a pattern? What what are they missing? what are they missing? what are they missing? >> They're missing intentionality. One of >> They're missing intentionality. One of >> They're missing intentionality. One of the ways you're going to reach people the ways you're going to reach people the ways you're going to reach people with gospel is to tell them about the with gospel is to tell them about the with gospel is to tell them about the gospel. They are they're missing prayer. gospel. They are they're missing prayer. gospel. They are they're missing prayer. In fact, they're not praying for the In fact, they're not praying for the In fact, they're not praying for the lost in in those events. They're not lost in in those events. They're not lost in in those events. They're not missing they're missing training. missing they're missing training. missing they're missing training. They're not telling people what this They're not telling people what this They're not telling people what this event should be doing and why they event should be doing and why they event should be doing and why they should be doing it. And the sum of all should be doing it. And the sum of all should be doing it. And the sum of all of this is they're trying to have an of this is they're trying to have an of this is they're trying to have an evangelistic event without evangelism.

>> That's well said. Well said. >> That's well said. Well said. >> But I'm not going to get the scroll >> But I'm not going to get the scroll >> But I'm not going to get the scroll going across on that one. It's just not going across on that one. It's just not going across on that one. It's just not as profound as some of your as profound as some of your as profound as some of your >> like that. Uh, last words, Tom? Anything >> like that. Uh, last words, Tom? Anything >> like that. Uh, last words, Tom? Anything else on Gen Z that we really need to be else on Gen Z that we really need to be else on Gen Z that we really need to be paying attention to if we want to see paying attention to if we want to see paying attention to if we want to see the church reach the next generation? the church reach the next generation? the church reach the next generation? >> I will give a story and maybe it will >> I will give a story and maybe it will >> I will give a story and maybe it will communicate the right answer to this. communicate the right answer to this. communicate the right answer to this. Um, there was a church we our team was Um, there was a church we our team was Um, there was a church we our team was not working in a consultive not working in a consultive not working in a consultive relationship. I would hear about it. relationship. I would hear about it. relationship. I would hear about it. There was a church where the median age There was a church where the median age There was a church where the median age was 74 was 74 was 74 >> and the average attendance was 28 >> and the average attendance was 28 >> and the average attendance was 28 median attendance. So small church, old median attendance. So small church, old median attendance. So small church, old church. church. church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They asked the question, can we even >> They asked the question, can we even >> They asked the question, can we even keep the doors open because keep the doors open because keep the doors open because we're not reaching people and we're we're not reaching people and we're we're not reaching people and we're getting older. We're dying off. Let me getting older. We're dying off. Let me getting older. We're dying off. Let me tell you the rest of the story. One year tell you the rest of the story. One year tell you the rest of the story. One year later, the church had 150 and the median later, the church had 150 and the median later, the church had 150 and the median age was in the 20s. age was in the 20s. age was in the 20s. >> Wow. What happened?

>> Wow. What happened? >> Wow. What happened? >> One lady, one lady said, "Do we really >> One lady, one lady said, "Do we really >> One lady, one lady said, "Do we really think the power of Christ is not think the power of Christ is not think the power of Christ is not available for us today? How can we reach available for us today? How can we reach available for us today? How can we reach young people?" And so she said, "You young people?" And so she said, "You young people?" And so she said, "You know what? know what? know what? I went through an ugly divorce 30 years I went through an ugly divorce 30 years I went through an ugly divorce 30 years ago." And I remember my time of single ago." And I remember my time of single ago." And I remember my time of single as a single parent and how I just needed as a single parent and how I just needed as a single parent and how I just needed someone to talk to to help or even a someone to talk to to help or even a someone to talk to to help or even a babysitter said I'm I'm going to put out babysitter said I'm I'm going to put out babysitter said I'm I'm going to put out a Facebook ad or just a Facebook post a Facebook ad or just a Facebook post a Facebook ad or just a Facebook post and I'm going to say hey if there are and I'm going to say hey if there are and I'm going to say hey if there are any single moms around and you just want any single moms around and you just want any single moms around and you just want to get together and talk maybe study the to get together and talk maybe study the to get together and talk maybe study the Bible here's where we're going to meet. Bible here's where we're going to meet. Bible here's where we're going to meet. I don't remember exactly so I don't want I don't remember exactly so I don't want I don't remember exactly so I don't want to say a number but I think about 30 to say a number but I think about 30 to say a number but I think about 30 showed up the first time. showed up the first time. showed up the first time. Well, it was outside of the church, but Well, it was outside of the church, but Well, it was outside of the church, but the more she got to know him, the more the more she got to know him, the more the more she got to know him, the more she brought him into the church. What she brought him into the church. What she brought him into the church. What happens when you bring single moms into happens when you bring single moms into happens when you bring single moms into the church? You have kids. the church? You have kids. the church? You have kids. >> And the church just said, "It really can >> And the church just said, "It really can >> And the church just said, "It really can happen. God can really do this." So, my happen. God can really do this." So, my happen. God can really do this." So, my my my final word, if I could use that my my final word, if I could use that my my final word, if I could use that phrase for this podcast, Carrie, is God phrase for this podcast, Carrie, is God phrase for this podcast, Carrie, is God is not done with these churches. Don't is not done with these churches. Don't is not done with these churches. Don't think he is. Ask ask the maybe the tripe think he is. Ask ask the maybe the tripe think he is. Ask ask the maybe the tripe and simplistic question. What can God and simplistic question. What can God and simplistic question. What can God really do through me if I'm obedient to really do through me if I'm obedient to really do through me if I'm obedient to him to reach others with the gospel?

him to reach others with the gospel? him to reach others with the gospel? >> Wow, >> Wow, >> Wow, Tom, this has been a delight as always. Tom, this has been a delight as always. Tom, this has been a delight as always. Uh thank you so much for the work you do Uh thank you so much for the work you do Uh thank you so much for the work you do with so many churches and keeping us all with so many churches and keeping us all with so many churches and keeping us all a breast through your books and your a breast through your books and your a breast through your books and your podcast and your writings, your blog and podcast and your writings, your blog and podcast and your writings, your blog and everything. The new book is called The everything. The new book is called The everything. The new book is called The Anxious Generation Goes to Church. It's Anxious Generation Goes to Church. It's Anxious Generation Goes to Church. It's available everywhere. If people want to available everywhere. If people want to available everywhere. If people want to track more closely with you, where is track more closely with you, where is track more closely with you, where is the best spot to go right now? the best spot to go right now? the best spot to go right now? >> Churchansers.com. That's that's the >> Churchansers.com. That's that's the >> Churchansers.com. That's that's the organization. And then on social media, organization. And then on social media, organization. And then on social media, it's always Tom Rener. Toom Rener. So, it's always Tom Rener. Toom Rener. So, it's always Tom Rener. Toom Rener. So, one of the two. one of the two. one of the two. >> Tom, thank you so much. >> Tom, thank you so much. >> Tom, thank you so much. >> Thank you, Carrie. Always great to be >> Thank you, Carrie. Always great to be >> Thank you, Carrie. Always great to be with you, my friend. with you, my friend. with you, my friend. >> Always a privilege.