Why Are White Christian Men Scared to Preach?

There was a real strong effort in media There was a real strong effort in media and culture and culture and culture to make specifically white Christian men to make specifically white Christian men to make specifically white Christian men afraid to preach the Bible. And this is afraid to preach the Bible. And this is afraid to preach the Bible. And this is going to sound weird, but one of my going to sound weird, but one of my going to sound weird, but one of my biggest advantages is that I'm black. biggest advantages is that I'm black. biggest advantages is that I'm black. Honestly, I think I can say things that Honestly, I think I can say things that Honestly, I think I can say things that other people feel like they can't say. other people feel like they can't say. other people feel like they can't say. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. Hey, today we have Leadership Podcast. Hey, today we have Leadership Podcast. Hey, today we have Julian Low on the podcast. We're going Julian Low on the podcast. We're going Julian Low on the podcast. We're going to talk about why white Christian men to talk about why white Christian men to talk about why white Christian men are afraid to preach the Bible. We're are afraid to preach the Bible. We're are afraid to preach the Bible. We're also going to talk about therapy. Um, also going to talk about therapy. Um, also going to talk about therapy. Um, becoming the successor to a church becoming the successor to a church becoming the successor to a church that's been around for over 35 years, that's been around for over 35 years, that's been around for over 35 years, calling like what happens when being a calling like what happens when being a calling like what happens when being a preacher was never your dream. And we'll preacher was never your dream. And we'll preacher was never your dream. And we'll talk about his time at the Groundlings talk about his time at the Groundlings talk about his time at the Groundlings and comedy though. Julian Low is going and comedy though. Julian Low is going and comedy though. Julian Low is going to be great. Uh, we'll get to the to be great. Uh, we'll get to the to be great. Uh, we'll get to the conversation in just a moment. But conversation in just a moment. But conversation in just a moment. But first, a word from our trusted partners. first, a word from our trusted partners. first, a word from our trusted partners. And make sure you subscribe where you're And make sure you subscribe where you're And make sure you subscribe where you're watching and maybe leave us a comment, watching and maybe leave us a comment, watching and maybe leave us a comment, too. We've got some interesting things too. We've got some interesting things too. We've got some interesting things to talk about. But now, a word from our to talk about. But now, a word from our to talk about. But now, a word from our trusted partners. Today's episode is trusted partners. Today's episode is trusted partners. Today's episode is brought to you by the preaching cheat brought to you by the preaching cheat brought to you by the preaching cheat sheet. So, preachers, I'd love to know sheet. So, preachers, I'd love to know sheet. So, preachers, I'd love to know if you can relate to this. Okay, it's if you can relate to this. Okay, it's if you can relate to this. Okay, it's Thursday night. Sunday's message still Thursday night. Sunday's message still Thursday night. Sunday's message still isn't coming together. I mean, you could isn't coming together. I mean, you could isn't coming together. I mean, you could even start early and it's not quite even start early and it's not quite even start early and it's not quite right. Right? The pressure is building.

right. Right? The pressure is building. right. Right? The pressure is building. It's hard to decide what to add, what to It's hard to decide what to add, what to It's hard to decide what to add, what to cut, how to tie everything together. You cut, how to tie everything together. You cut, how to tie everything together. You want some family time, and you know, by want some family time, and you know, by want some family time, and you know, by the time Saturday rolls around, you're the time Saturday rolls around, you're the time Saturday rolls around, you're just going to have to call it as it is, just going to have to call it as it is, just going to have to call it as it is, even if you're secondguessing some of even if you're secondguessing some of even if you're secondguessing some of your message. Well, that's where my your message. Well, that's where my your message. Well, that's where my 10step preaching cheat sheet can help. 10step preaching cheat sheet can help. 10step preaching cheat sheet can help. It's your quick check guide to ensure It's your quick check guide to ensure It's your quick check guide to ensure you've got an engaging, clear, and you've got an engaging, clear, and you've got an engaging, clear, and memorable sermon ready for Sunday memorable sermon ready for Sunday memorable sermon ready for Sunday morning. From your opening line to morning. From your opening line to morning. From your opening line to landing the plane at the end of your landing the plane at the end of your landing the plane at the end of your sermon and every step in between, you sermon and every step in between, you sermon and every step in between, you can use the 10 steps during sermon prep can use the 10 steps during sermon prep can use the 10 steps during sermon prep or even to start or to finish your or even to start or to finish your or even to start or to finish your message, whatever you want to make sure message, whatever you want to make sure message, whatever you want to make sure you are ready to deliver an impactful you are ready to deliver an impactful you are ready to deliver an impactful message every single time you preach. message every single time you preach. message every single time you preach. And the big news is I've just released a And the big news is I've just released a And the big news is I've just released a brand new version of the cheat sheet. So brand new version of the cheat sheet. So brand new version of the cheat sheet. So if you've downloaded it before, be sure if you've downloaded it before, be sure if you've downloaded it before, be sure to get the new version in your hands. We to get the new version in your hands. We to get the new version in your hands. We got a lot of feedback. I improved it. got a lot of feedback. I improved it. got a lot of feedback. I improved it. Still basically the bones are the same, Still basically the bones are the same, Still basically the bones are the same, but it's going to be even better. Okay? but it's going to be even better. Okay? but it's going to be even better. Okay? You can download your copy for free by You can download your copy for free by You can download your copy for free by clicking the link in the description of clicking the link in the description of clicking the link in the description of this episode or by visiting this episode or by visiting this episode or by visiting preachingsheet.com. Again, that's preachingsheet.com. Again, that's preachingsheet.com. Again, that's preachingsheet.com to download your copy preachingsheet.com to download your copy preachingsheet.com to download your copy for free or simply click the link in the for free or simply click the link in the for free or simply click the link in the episode of this description wherever episode of this description wherever episode of this description wherever you're listening. This episode is you're listening. This episode is you're listening. This episode is brought to you by Glue. We all know how brought to you by Glue. We all know how brought to you by Glue. We all know how fast things move in ministry and how fast things move in ministry and how fast things move in ministry and how hard it can be to keep up. Well, that's hard it can be to keep up. Well, that's hard it can be to keep up. Well, that's exactly what the Glue feed is built for.

exactly what the Glue feed is built for. exactly what the Glue feed is built for. It's a completely free regular text that It's a completely free regular text that It's a completely free regular text that delivers the latest research, trending delivers the latest research, trending delivers the latest research, trending topics, and updates from across the topics, and updates from across the topics, and updates from across the church. For example, did you see the church. For example, did you see the church. For example, did you see the surprising reversal in which Americans surprising reversal in which Americans surprising reversal in which Americans are trending in their commitment to are trending in their commitment to are trending in their commitment to Jesus? Uh, it's going up. Or did you Jesus? Uh, it's going up. Or did you Jesus? Uh, it's going up. Or did you catch the fresh insights on where catch the fresh insights on where catch the fresh insights on where pastors say they don't have enough pastors say they don't have enough pastors say they don't have enough support in their ministry? Well, you support in their ministry? Well, you support in their ministry? Well, you would have if you saw the text from Glue would have if you saw the text from Glue would have if you saw the text from Glue Feed. This is the best way to stay Feed. This is the best way to stay Feed. This is the best way to stay informed about what matters, when it informed about what matters, when it informed about what matters, when it matters, and you don't have to sift matters, and you don't have to sift matters, and you don't have to sift through the noise, right? So, if you through the noise, right? So, if you through the noise, right? So, if you want all the latest research, updates on want all the latest research, updates on want all the latest research, updates on AI in the church, access to resources, AI in the church, access to resources, AI in the church, access to resources, and a whole lot more, join the glue feed and a whole lot more, join the glue feed and a whole lot more, join the glue feed today for free, here's how to do it. today for free, here's how to do it. today for free, here's how to do it. Text my name, Carrie, to 46816 Text my name, Carrie, to 46816 Text my name, Carrie, to 46816 to join for free. That's c a r e y to to join for free. That's c a r e y to to join for free. That's c a r e y to 46816. 46816. 46816. Julian, you uh had a successful career Julian, you uh had a successful career Julian, you uh had a successful career in the music industry before you ever in the music industry before you ever in the music industry before you ever got into ministry. Can you tell us like got into ministry. Can you tell us like got into ministry. Can you tell us like what you did in the music industry and what you did in the music industry and what you did in the music industry and how that might have prepared you or not how that might have prepared you or not how that might have prepared you or not prepared you for the life that was ahead prepared you for the life that was ahead prepared you for the life that was ahead in ministry?

in ministry? in ministry? >> You know, I think uh successful means I >> You know, I think uh successful means I >> You know, I think uh successful means I made some money. Uh successful means I made some money. Uh successful means I made some money. Uh successful means I got a chance to, you know, to have got a chance to, you know, to have got a chance to, you know, to have published songs um had a publishing published songs um had a publishing published songs um had a publishing deal. I definitely wouldn't have been at deal. I definitely wouldn't have been at deal. I definitely wouldn't have been at the top uh rung of anything in the the top uh rung of anything in the the top uh rung of anything in the business, but I I definitely had some business, but I I definitely had some business, but I I definitely had some traction. I think that creativity is um traction. I think that creativity is um traction. I think that creativity is um the solution to problems. You know, God the solution to problems. You know, God the solution to problems. You know, God said, you know, came down to earth. He said, you know, came down to earth. He said, you know, came down to earth. He saw that the earth was dark, void, saw that the earth was dark, void, saw that the earth was dark, void, without form. And it says, so God without form. And it says, so God without form. And it says, so God created. So, I think creativity is the created. So, I think creativity is the created. So, I think creativity is the solution to problems. And those who are solution to problems. And those who are solution to problems. And those who are not creative are going to have a harder not creative are going to have a harder not creative are going to have a harder time solving problems. So, I would just time solving problems. So, I would just time solving problems. So, I would just say that for me, creativity is such a say that for me, creativity is such a say that for me, creativity is such a big way that I solve problems. you know, big way that I solve problems. you know, big way that I solve problems. you know, we were we didn't have much time in this we were we didn't have much time in this we were we didn't have much time in this studio, so I wasn't a recording artist. studio, so I wasn't a recording artist. studio, so I wasn't a recording artist. I was a songwriter. So, they put on a I was a songwriter. So, they put on a I was a songwriter. So, they put on a track, a pre-produced track, and really, track, a pre-produced track, and really, track, a pre-produced track, and really, you wanted to show the the studio um and you wanted to show the the studio um and you wanted to show the the studio um and the record label that you could produce the record label that you could produce the record label that you could produce something on a relatively fast time something on a relatively fast time something on a relatively fast time frame. So, you got four hours, you got frame. So, you got four hours, you got frame. So, you got four hours, you got to create a song. So, um a lot of that to create a song. So, um a lot of that to create a song. So, um a lot of that was improv. And a lot of people don't was improv. And a lot of people don't was improv. And a lot of people don't know this, Carrie. I went to um uh a know this, Carrie. I went to um uh a know this, Carrie. I went to um uh a comedy school when I was 19 years old.

comedy school when I was 19 years old. comedy school when I was 19 years old. Groundlings, which is one of the most Groundlings, which is one of the most Groundlings, which is one of the most popular uh uh comedy schools in LA for popular uh uh comedy schools in LA for popular uh uh comedy schools in LA for >> 80% of SNL are Groundlings grads. >> 80% of SNL are Groundlings grads. >> 80% of SNL are Groundlings grads. >> 80% of SNL are Groundlings graduates. So >> 80% of SNL are Groundlings graduates. So >> 80% of SNL are Groundlings graduates. So I didn't graduate from the program, but I didn't graduate from the program, but I didn't graduate from the program, but went there for two years and didn't uh went there for two years and didn't uh went there for two years and didn't uh did something else. But so my background did something else. But so my background did something else. But so my background in creativity and comedy uh plays a huge in creativity and comedy uh plays a huge in creativity and comedy uh plays a huge role um when I preach or lead. I mean role um when I preach or lead. I mean role um when I preach or lead. I mean huge. huge. huge. I did not know that you are a I did not know that you are a I did not know that you are a groundlings well kind of alumni. groundlings well kind of alumni. groundlings well kind of alumni. >> What did what do you learn there? I mean >> What did what do you learn there? I mean >> What did what do you learn there? I mean literally the list is so long of people literally the list is so long of people literally the list is so long of people who went through the groundlings. What who went through the groundlings. What who went through the groundlings. What what did improv and comedy teach you what did improv and comedy teach you what did improv and comedy teach you about communication? about communication? about communication? >> Well, number one is is that um it's >> Well, number one is is that um it's >> Well, number one is is that um it's primarily improv. So, I was on the primarily improv. So, I was on the primarily improv. So, I was on the improv side. So, you get thrown into improv side. So, you get thrown into improv side. So, you get thrown into scenarios where you're sitting there at scenarios where you're sitting there at scenarios where you're sitting there at a table with a young lady and they're a table with a young lady and they're a table with a young lady and they're saying, "Okay, you are a married couple saying, "Okay, you are a married couple saying, "Okay, you are a married couple um and you guys are out to dinner um and you guys are out to dinner um and you guys are out to dinner celebrating your anniversary. Go." And celebrating your anniversary. Go." And celebrating your anniversary. Go." And you have to make it funny and you have you have to make it funny and you have you have to make it funny and you have to make it uh real. And then they will to make it uh real. And then they will to make it uh real. And then they will stop it in like 15 20 minutes in, at stop it in like 15 20 minutes in, at stop it in like 15 20 minutes in, at least one of the things I did, and said, least one of the things I did, and said, least one of the things I did, and said, "Now you've just received evidence on "Now you've just received evidence on "Now you've just received evidence on your phone that your wife is cheating on your phone that your wife is cheating on your phone that your wife is cheating on you." and you have to go through that you." and you have to go through that you." and you have to go through that scene all improv and somehow people have scene all improv and somehow people have scene all improv and somehow people have to laugh and so you have to find a way to laugh and so you have to find a way to laugh and so you have to find a way to take a serious situation and make it to take a serious situation and make it to take a serious situation and make it funny. So really it's about um speed. So

funny. So really it's about um speed. So funny. So really it's about um speed. So for example um I'm able now to I still for example um I'm able now to I still for example um I'm able now to I still study for my sermons but I'm able now to study for my sermons but I'm able now to study for my sermons but I'm able now to improv certain thoughts or certain improv certain thoughts or certain improv certain thoughts or certain things because I'm trained to do it things because I'm trained to do it things because I'm trained to do it fast. And so that's really the real fast. And so that's really the real fast. And so that's really the real thing. People can be funny, but how fast thing. People can be funny, but how fast thing. People can be funny, but how fast can you be funny and how can you follow can you be funny and how can you follow can you be funny and how can you follow the the rules of being funny, which is a the the rules of being funny, which is a the the rules of being funny, which is a lot of things we could get into. There's lot of things we could get into. There's lot of things we could get into. There's certain techniques that certain techniques that certain techniques that >> I would love to go there. I mean, I love >> I would love to go there. I mean, I love >> I would love to go there. I mean, I love talking to comedians. I tend to be talking to comedians. I tend to be talking to comedians. I tend to be funnier in real life than I am on the funnier in real life than I am on the funnier in real life than I am on the stage or behind the microphone, you stage or behind the microphone, you stage or behind the microphone, you know. Boy, that sounded really dull the know. Boy, that sounded really dull the know. Boy, that sounded really dull the way I said it. So, way I said it. So, way I said it. So, >> case in point. Case in point, like I'm >> case in point. Case in point, like I'm >> case in point. Case in point, like I'm pretty quick wit if we're just hanging pretty quick wit if we're just hanging pretty quick wit if we're just hanging out in the backyard or on a trip or out in the backyard or on a trip or out in the backyard or on a trip or something like that, but I find it something like that, but I find it something like that, but I find it harder on stage. So, I'm curious. Let's harder on stage. So, I'm curious. Let's harder on stage. So, I'm curious. Let's go there. What are some of the the rules go there. What are some of the the rules go there. What are some of the the rules of comedy or the principles you learned? of comedy or the principles you learned? of comedy or the principles you learned? >> One of the big rules is is contrast is >> One of the big rules is is contrast is >> One of the big rules is is contrast is always funny. Now, if you if you're not always funny. Now, if you if you're not always funny. Now, if you if you're not afraid of offending people, um you can afraid of offending people, um you can afraid of offending people, um you can use contrast a lot more, but our church use contrast a lot more, but our church use contrast a lot more, but our church is super diverse. um you know so I want is super diverse. um you know so I want is super diverse. um you know so I want to say 20 something% of our church is to say 20 something% of our church is to say 20 something% of our church is black you know 20% is white 20 black you know 20% is white 20 black you know 20% is white 20 something% is Hispanic another 20% is something% is Hispanic another 20% is something% is Hispanic another 20% is Asian so there's differences and Asian so there's differences and Asian so there's differences and contrast between our cultures so one of contrast between our cultures so one of contrast between our cultures so one of the bits that I've been doing recently the bits that I've been doing recently the bits that I've been doing recently is is seasoning food um where I would is is seasoning food um where I would is is seasoning food um where I would say um some of you have two seasonings say um some of you have two seasonings say um some of you have two seasonings in your cabinet um I have two cabinets

in your cabinet um I have two cabinets in your cabinet um I have two cabinets for my seasoning and then the whole for my seasoning and then the whole for my seasoning and then the whole church church church laughing. laughing. laughing. >> Are you talking to my group about having >> Are you talking to my group about having >> Are you talking to my group about having salt and pepper in their cabinet? Is salt and pepper in their cabinet? Is salt and pepper in their cabinet? Is that what you're doing there, Julie? that what you're doing there, Julie? that what you're doing there, Julie? >> Yeah. So, I said, you know, if I go to >> Yeah. So, I said, you know, if I go to >> Yeah. So, I said, you know, if I go to your house and you got pepper and a your house and you got pepper and a your house and you got pepper and a bottle of pink Himalayan sea salt, I go, bottle of pink Himalayan sea salt, I go, bottle of pink Himalayan sea salt, I go, "Oh, no." You know, so, and everybody "Oh, no." You know, so, and everybody "Oh, no." You know, so, and everybody kind of knows who you're talking about kind of knows who you're talking about kind of knows who you're talking about without saying who you're talking about. without saying who you're talking about. without saying who you're talking about. Um, and you're exaggerating. We know Um, and you're exaggerating. We know Um, and you're exaggerating. We know that most people don't have two that most people don't have two that most people don't have two seasonings, but contrast and then seasonings, but contrast and then seasonings, but contrast and then exaggerating. exaggerating. exaggerating. Um, the contrast. I went on a thing Um, the contrast. I went on a thing Um, the contrast. I went on a thing where um uh another thing is called like where um uh another thing is called like where um uh another thing is called like a misdirect where I will say something a misdirect where I will say something a misdirect where I will say something like uh and also using contrast where in like uh and also using contrast where in like uh and also using contrast where in cultures where I was talking about my cultures where I was talking about my cultures where I was talking about my daughter is really challenging me um as daughter is really challenging me um as daughter is really challenging me um as a father. I said specifically as a black a father. I said specifically as a black a father. I said specifically as a black father and the whole room gets like father and the whole room gets like father and the whole room gets like silent and gets like man like praying silent and gets like man like praying silent and gets like man like praying for you and I'm like yeah she's been for you and I'm like yeah she's been for you and I'm like yeah she's been asking me to go swimming and every asking me to go swimming and every asking me to go swimming and every and then everybody's just like, "Oh my and then everybody's just like, "Oh my and then everybody's just like, "Oh my gosh, this is gosh, this is gosh, this is uh crazy." So, it's it's it's simple uh crazy." So, it's it's it's simple uh crazy." So, it's it's it's simple techniques that you could use. And techniques that you could use. And techniques that you could use. And honestly, as like if you happen to be a honestly, as like if you happen to be a honestly, as like if you happen to be a pastor, I know there's communicators pastor, I know there's communicators pastor, I know there's communicators that um listen to this that um you know, that um listen to this that um you know, that um listen to this that um you know, aren't pastors, but really is the moment aren't pastors, but really is the moment aren't pastors, but really is the moment you enter into a space as a pastor that you enter into a space as a pastor that you enter into a space as a pastor that other pastors probably would not say or other pastors probably would not say or other pastors probably would not say or wouldn't dare to try or say, um it ends wouldn't dare to try or say, um it ends wouldn't dare to try or say, um it ends up being funny, um by default. So,

up being funny, um by default. So, up being funny, um by default. So, any other rules or things you observed any other rules or things you observed any other rules or things you observed in the ground links? What what does it in the ground links? What what does it in the ground links? What what does it take to be a comedian? take to be a comedian? take to be a comedian? >> I would say that um Steve uh Martin said >> I would say that um Steve uh Martin said >> I would say that um Steve uh Martin said this in his master class. He said you this in his master class. He said you this in his master class. He said you have to be a master observer. So you have to be a master observer. So you have to be a master observer. So you have to be very observational. You have have to be very observational. You have have to be very observational. You have to notice things and you have to train to notice things and you have to train to notice things and you have to train yourself to notice things. And once you yourself to notice things. And once you yourself to notice things. And once you train yourself to notice things, uh then train yourself to notice things, uh then train yourself to notice things, uh then you can be funny. Um the other day I was you can be funny. Um the other day I was you can be funny. Um the other day I was driving around LA and there's these driving around LA and there's these driving around LA and there's these self-driving vehicles called uh Whimos self-driving vehicles called uh Whimos self-driving vehicles called uh Whimos and I don't know if they have them where and I don't know if they have them where and I don't know if they have them where you are but um you are but um you are but um >> No, but I've seen them. Yeah. >> No, but I've seen them. Yeah. >> No, but I've seen them. Yeah. >> Yes. And so back to the contrast thing >> Yes. And so back to the contrast thing >> Yes. And so back to the contrast thing um I was going to post something on the um I was going to post something on the um I was going to post something on the internet cuz I've been seeing them internet cuz I've been seeing them internet cuz I've been seeing them everywhere and I'm like there's everywhere and I'm like there's everywhere and I'm like there's something funny about this but I can't something funny about this but I can't something funny about this but I can't figure it out. So, I was gonna post on figure it out. So, I was gonna post on figure it out. So, I was gonna post on the internet something stupid where I the internet something stupid where I the internet something stupid where I was like, you know, um I would never get was like, you know, um I would never get was like, you know, um I would never get in one of these uh Whimos. Um you know in one of these uh Whimos. Um you know in one of these uh Whimos. Um you know that I don't I don't think they're safe.

that I don't I don't think they're safe. that I don't I don't think they're safe. I'd rather get in an Uber and I'd rather I'd rather get in an Uber and I'd rather I'd rather get in an Uber and I'd rather get in a lift. You know what I thought get in a lift. You know what I thought get in a lift. You know what I thought to myself? Um every time I see a Whimo, to myself? Um every time I see a Whimo, to myself? Um every time I see a Whimo, I think there's way more safer options I think there's way more safer options I think there's way more safer options to get where I'm trying to go to get where I'm trying to go to get where I'm trying to go and said it like that. And it's, you and said it like that. And it's, you and said it like that. And it's, you know, just stuff like that. So, um, uh, know, just stuff like that. So, um, uh, know, just stuff like that. So, um, uh, you know, it's a bit of a dad joke, but you know, it's a bit of a dad joke, but you know, it's a bit of a dad joke, but like just that's the way my brain thinks like just that's the way my brain thinks like just that's the way my brain thinks is noticing things that aren't funny and is noticing things that aren't funny and is noticing things that aren't funny and what's funny about something what's funny about something what's funny about something >> and then someone can go there is funny. >> and then someone can go there is funny. >> and then someone can go there is funny. So, I would say the number one thing is So, I would say the number one thing is So, I would say the number one thing is observation um, and being able to watch observation um, and being able to watch observation um, and being able to watch um, and being a student of people and a um, and being a student of people and a um, and being a student of people and a student of your surroundings um, and not student of your surroundings um, and not student of your surroundings um, and not being afraid and not being afraid. being afraid and not being afraid. being afraid and not being afraid. >> How do you train yourself to observe? >> How do you train yourself to observe? >> How do you train yourself to observe? Uh, I'll give you an example. I don't Uh, I'll give you an example. I don't Uh, I'll give you an example. I don't know whether you know John AF or not. know whether you know John AF or not. know whether you know John AF or not. frequent guest on this podcast, a good frequent guest on this podcast, a good frequent guest on this podcast, a good friend. John and I have spent a ton of friend. John and I have spent a ton of friend. John and I have spent a ton of time together offline. And I mean, time together offline. And I mean, time together offline. And I mean, that's just how he sees the world. We that's just how he sees the world. We that's just how he sees the world. We had lunch last week. He's always had lunch last week. He's always had lunch last week. He's always noticing things. He's noticing things at noticing things. He's noticing things at noticing things. He's noticing things at the restaurant we're at. He's noticing the restaurant we're at. He's noticing the restaurant we're at. He's noticing things in the green room we're at. Like things in the green room we're at. Like things in the green room we're at. Like just pointing them out, I'm in the same just pointing them out, I'm in the same just pointing them out, I'm in the same room. I'm not seeing it the same way. I room. I'm not seeing it the same way. I room. I'm not seeing it the same way. I might see a church trend or something.

might see a church trend or something. might see a church trend or something. So, how do you train yourself to observe So, how do you train yourself to observe So, how do you train yourself to observe that way? And what are you looking for? that way? And what are you looking for? that way? And what are you looking for? I think even from a leadership I think even from a leadership I think even from a leadership perspective, I think and this would be perspective, I think and this would be perspective, I think and this would be obviously um a personal opinion or obviously um a personal opinion or obviously um a personal opinion or conviction of mine. I think that you conviction of mine. I think that you conviction of mine. I think that you have to have the discipline of observing have to have the discipline of observing have to have the discipline of observing so much but also the discipline of not so much but also the discipline of not so much but also the discipline of not feeling like you have to do anything feeling like you have to do anything feeling like you have to do anything about everything you're observing. M about everything you're observing. M about everything you're observing. M >> I think what destroys observation is >> I think what destroys observation is >> I think what destroys observation is observing five things and let's say you observing five things and let's say you observing five things and let's say you see something wrong but it never goes see something wrong but it never goes see something wrong but it never goes through that filter. Does this matter to through that filter. Does this matter to through that filter. Does this matter to me or does it matter to God? Does it me or does it matter to God? Does it me or does it matter to God? Does it matter to this organization? Does it matter to this organization? Does it matter to this organization? Does it matter? Um and being able to filter matter? Um and being able to filter matter? Um and being able to filter through that information. It's kind of through that information. It's kind of through that information. It's kind of like, you know, Instagram or YouTube. I like, you know, Instagram or YouTube. I like, you know, Instagram or YouTube. I mean, they're capturing billions of mean, they're capturing billions of mean, they're capturing billions of pieces of data and they're able to pieces of data and they're able to pieces of data and they're able to filter through that data to get down to filter through that data to get down to filter through that data to get down to the data that matters to them. And so I the data that matters to them. And so I the data that matters to them. And so I think um for a lot of people being think um for a lot of people being think um for a lot of people being observant is um overwhelming because observant is um overwhelming because observant is um overwhelming because they think they have to do something they think they have to do something they think they have to do something about everything that they're observing.

about everything that they're observing. about everything that they're observing. But for me I I just it's training But for me I I just it's training But for me I I just it's training yourself to notice things yourself to notice things yourself to notice things um without focusing on everything you um without focusing on everything you um without focusing on everything you notice. So it's an observation without a notice. So it's an observation without a notice. So it's an observation without a focus if that makes sense. focus if that makes sense. focus if that makes sense. >> What um what value do you think humor >> What um what value do you think humor >> What um what value do you think humor brings to a sermon? Let's not talk brings to a sermon? Let's not talk brings to a sermon? Let's not talk keynotes, but let's just talk about keynotes, but let's just talk about keynotes, but let's just talk about preaching. Um, I love to like have preaching. Um, I love to like have preaching. Um, I love to like have something in a message sometimes three something in a message sometimes three something in a message sometimes three or four times that kind of loosens or four times that kind of loosens or four times that kind of loosens people up, makes them laugh a little bit people up, makes them laugh a little bit people up, makes them laugh a little bit or etc. And I kind of chip away at that. or etc. And I kind of chip away at that. or etc. And I kind of chip away at that. Um, and you know, nine times out of 10 Um, and you know, nine times out of 10 Um, and you know, nine times out of 10 it works. I mean, if I'm doing a it works. I mean, if I'm doing a it works. I mean, if I'm doing a keynote, it's super easy because I know keynote, it's super easy because I know keynote, it's super easy because I know which jokes work and I haven't done that which jokes work and I haven't done that which jokes work and I haven't done that crowd before. Kind of like a comedian crowd before. Kind of like a comedian crowd before. Kind of like a comedian with a with a routine, you know, is with a with a routine, you know, is with a with a routine, you know, is going to land in going to land in going to land in >> Phoenix or Chicago or wherever you >> Phoenix or Chicago or wherever you >> Phoenix or Chicago or wherever you happen to be. But for the average happen to be. But for the average happen to be. But for the average preacher, what is a value of humor? And preacher, what is a value of humor? And preacher, what is a value of humor? And then what would you what tips would you then what would you what tips would you then what would you what tips would you give them? give them? give them? >> Well, you know, a lot of times, you >> Well, you know, a lot of times, you >> Well, you know, a lot of times, you know, there's this verse in the Bible know, there's this verse in the Bible know, there's this verse in the Bible where Jesus says, "Blessed are those who where Jesus says, "Blessed are those who where Jesus says, "Blessed are those who are not offended because of me." Um, are not offended because of me." Um, are not offended because of me." Um, there's also plenty of verses about there's also plenty of verses about there's also plenty of verses about anger. There's plenty of verses. When anger. There's plenty of verses. When anger. There's plenty of verses. When the whole room is laughing, it's almost the whole room is laughing, it's almost the whole room is laughing, it's almost impossible for anyone to be offended.

impossible for anyone to be offended. impossible for anyone to be offended. When the whole room is laughing, it's When the whole room is laughing, it's When the whole room is laughing, it's almost hard for anyone to be angry. Uh, almost hard for anyone to be angry. Uh, almost hard for anyone to be angry. Uh, laughter is one of the most healing laughter is one of the most healing laughter is one of the most healing things you could possibly imagine. When things you could possibly imagine. When things you could possibly imagine. When I was um four years old, you know, my I was um four years old, you know, my I was um four years old, you know, my dad would put me down, four or five dad would put me down, four or five dad would put me down, four or five years old, and he'd listen to these years old, and he'd listen to these years old, and he'd listen to these comedy albums. If you're a young person, comedy albums. If you're a young person, comedy albums. If you're a young person, an album is a circular thing that you an album is a circular thing that you an album is a circular thing that you put on a record player. put on a record player. put on a record player. Um anyway, uh but he um and I would like Um anyway, uh but he um and I would like Um anyway, uh but he um and I would like crawl out of the room on my on my belly crawl out of the room on my on my belly crawl out of the room on my on my belly and lay in the hallway and listen to my and lay in the hallway and listen to my and lay in the hallway and listen to my dad laugh after he thought I was in bed. dad laugh after he thought I was in bed. dad laugh after he thought I was in bed. >> And I remember this feeling of seeing my >> And I remember this feeling of seeing my >> And I remember this feeling of seeing my dad looking back. I don't know if I dad looking back. I don't know if I dad looking back. I don't know if I could recognize at the time being five could recognize at the time being five could recognize at the time being five or six. My dad was such a hardworking or six. My dad was such a hardworking or six. My dad was such a hardworking man. He carried weight in the family. man. He carried weight in the family. man. He carried weight in the family. And I remember feeling this feeling on And I remember feeling this feeling on And I remember feeling this feeling on how much joy that my dad was having how much joy that my dad was having how much joy that my dad was having while laughing. And I and I I think I while laughing. And I and I I think I while laughing. And I and I I think I decided in that moment, whatever I do, decided in that moment, whatever I do, decided in that moment, whatever I do, people are going to to be able to laugh. people are going to to be able to laugh. people are going to to be able to laugh. It is the um It is the um It is the um range of emotion in a human when they're range of emotion in a human when they're range of emotion in a human when they're listening to you that really creates I listening to you that really creates I listening to you that really creates I think an impartation. If someone's only think an impartation. If someone's only think an impartation. If someone's only angry, if someone's only sad, if angry, if someone's only sad, if angry, if someone's only sad, if someone's only convicted, if someone's someone's only convicted, if someone's someone's only convicted, if someone's only laughing. I think ministries only laughing. I think ministries only laughing. I think ministries without weight, everybody laughs, but without weight, everybody laughs, but without weight, everybody laughs, but nobody pers or thinks or actually feels nobody pers or thinks or actually feels nobody pers or thinks or actually feels any. So I think someone feeling a range any. So I think someone feeling a range any. So I think someone feeling a range of emotion when you are up there for 35 of emotion when you are up there for 35 of emotion when you are up there for 35 minutes. The best films do that. Um the minutes. The best films do that. Um the minutes. The best films do that. Um the best songs do that. Um and I think the

best songs do that. Um and I think the best songs do that. Um and I think the best sermons do it as well. And I think best sermons do it as well. And I think best sermons do it as well. And I think one of the things that's overlooked in one of the things that's overlooked in one of the things that's overlooked in communication or sermons is humor. Um communication or sermons is humor. Um communication or sermons is humor. Um because people think that they're not um because people think that they're not um because people think that they're not um funny, but everybody's funny and funny, but everybody's funny and funny, but everybody's funny and everybody loves to laugh in their own everybody loves to laugh in their own everybody loves to laugh in their own way. way. way. >> So if somebody's like, "Okay, I'm >> So if somebody's like, "Okay, I'm >> So if somebody's like, "Okay, I'm convinced. I want to put more humor in convinced. I want to put more humor in convinced. I want to put more humor in my messages." What What's one step they my messages." What What's one step they my messages." What What's one step they could take? could take? could take? Well, one step that every um Well, one step that every um Well, one step that every um communicator could take is and and communicator could take is and and communicator could take is and and obviously, you know, I understand you obviously, you know, I understand you obviously, you know, I understand you have an audience that's not everybody's have an audience that's not everybody's have an audience that's not everybody's pastors, but I I that's my framework, so pastors, but I I that's my framework, so pastors, but I I that's my framework, so it'll I think it'll make sense to you. it'll I think it'll make sense to you. it'll I think it'll make sense to you. But, But, But, >> uh Paul said, not only did I share the >> uh Paul said, not only did I share the >> uh Paul said, not only did I share the gospel, but my own life as well. And I gospel, but my own life as well. And I gospel, but my own life as well. And I think there's a piece of me that has to think there's a piece of me that has to think there's a piece of me that has to not just be willing to be Pastor Julian, not just be willing to be Pastor Julian, not just be willing to be Pastor Julian, because there's so many things Pastor because there's so many things Pastor because there's so many things Pastor Julian would never say. There's so many Julian would never say. There's so many Julian would never say. There's so many jokes Pastor Julian would never say. But jokes Pastor Julian would never say. But jokes Pastor Julian would never say. But then there's that joke that Julian would then there's that joke that Julian would then there's that joke that Julian would say. There's that joke that Julian would say. There's that joke that Julian would say. There's that joke that Julian would do. And there's obviously uh you know do. And there's obviously uh you know do. And there's obviously uh you know boundaries for all of that. And like I'm boundaries for all of that. And like I'm boundaries for all of that. And like I'm never going to say anything super crude, never going to say anything super crude, never going to say anything super crude, but I I think it's bridging the gap and but I I think it's bridging the gap and but I I think it's bridging the gap and marrying the the leader. There's a joke marrying the the leader. There's a joke marrying the the leader. There's a joke that a leader wouldn't say. And I'm not that a leader wouldn't say. And I'm not that a leader wouldn't say. And I'm not and I'm not talking about crude or and I'm not talking about crude or and I'm not talking about crude or coarse or anything like in those lines.

coarse or anything like in those lines. coarse or anything like in those lines. I'm just talking about this image that I'm just talking about this image that I'm just talking about this image that you're presenting and there's something you're presenting and there's something you're presenting and there's something that's real about you that would break that's real about you that would break that's real about you that would break this image that you're presenting. So, this image that you're presenting. So, this image that you're presenting. So, the first step would just be to ask the first step would just be to ask the first step would just be to ask yourself, um, am I being myself? yourself, um, am I being myself? yourself, um, am I being myself? >> Is this who I really am? Um, we did, um, >> Is this who I really am? Um, we did, um, >> Is this who I really am? Um, we did, um, a video for Easter that had virtually a a video for Easter that had virtually a a video for Easter that had virtually a million views where we posted something million views where we posted something million views where we posted something about something and and people like, I about something and and people like, I about something and and people like, I don't know, would this get mad? Will don't know, would this get mad? Will don't know, would this get mad? Will people get mad about this? Like, yeah, people get mad about this? Like, yeah, people get mad about this? Like, yeah, but that's who I am. So, if people get but that's who I am. So, if people get but that's who I am. So, if people get mad at something that's who I am, then I mad at something that's who I am, then I mad at something that's who I am, then I have to eat that. So, I would say that's have to eat that. So, I would say that's have to eat that. So, I would say that's step number one step number one step number one >> is a lot of people are operating in a >> is a lot of people are operating in a >> is a lot of people are operating in a almost like a character caricature of almost like a character caricature of almost like a character caricature of themselves, not who they really are. themselves, not who they really are. themselves, not who they really are. >> And so, with these things coming up, >> And so, with these things coming up, >> And so, with these things coming up, they go, I can't say that I'm a leader, they go, I can't say that I'm a leader, they go, I can't say that I'm a leader, or I can't say that I'm a pastor, or I or I can't say that I'm a pastor, or I or I can't say that I'm a pastor, or I can't say that I'm this. But really, can't say that I'm this. But really, can't say that I'm this. But really, when they're home, that's who they who when they're home, that's who they who when they're home, that's who they who they really are. So, that would be uh they really are. So, that would be uh they really are. So, that would be uh number one. Number two, I think um humor number one. Number two, I think um humor number one. Number two, I think um humor is um you can start off with is um you can start off with is um you can start off with self-deprecating humor.

self-deprecating humor. self-deprecating humor. >> One of the things that I believe that >> One of the things that I believe that >> One of the things that I believe that that I did is I started making fun of that I did is I started making fun of that I did is I started making fun of myself long before I would ever poke fun myself long before I would ever poke fun myself long before I would ever poke fun at anybody else. And so a balance at anybody else. And so a balance at anybody else. And so a balance between self-deprecating humor and um between self-deprecating humor and um between self-deprecating humor and um you know making fun of other things. The you know making fun of other things. The you know making fun of other things. The other thing too is like like being other thing too is like like being other thing too is like like being willing to make fun of the church, being willing to make fun of the church, being willing to make fun of the church, being willing to make fun of like poke fun. I willing to make fun of like poke fun. I willing to make fun of like poke fun. I shouldn't say make fun, but poke fun and shouldn't say make fun, but poke fun and shouldn't say make fun, but poke fun and being light-hearted about things would being light-hearted about things would being light-hearted about things would be another step where you where you can be another step where you where you can be another step where you where you can talk about everybody in the room knows talk about everybody in the room knows talk about everybody in the room knows about church. about church. about church. >> So you can um bring something up. I'll >> So you can um bring something up. I'll >> So you can um bring something up. I'll give you example. I was preaching on give you example. I was preaching on give you example. I was preaching on Abraham once, right? And I was talking Abraham once, right? And I was talking Abraham once, right? And I was talking about, hey, for all the Christians that about, hey, for all the Christians that about, hey, for all the Christians that grew up in the church, remember that grew up in the church, remember that grew up in the church, remember that song, uh, Father Abraham? How many sons? song, uh, Father Abraham? How many sons? song, uh, Father Abraham? How many sons? And all the Christians joining, how many And all the Christians joining, how many And all the Christians joining, how many sons have Father Abraham? And then I sons have Father Abraham? And then I sons have Father Abraham? And then I went, is there anybody in this room has went, is there anybody in this room has went, is there anybody in this room has no idea what I'm talking about? And like no idea what I'm talking about? And like no idea what I'm talking about? And like a third of the room raised their hand. I a third of the room raised their hand. I a third of the room raised their hand. I said, "All right, for the sinners, let's said, "All right, for the sinners, let's said, "All right, for the sinners, let's sing along. Just a small town girl sing along. Just a small town girl sing along. Just a small town girl living in a lonely." And the whole living in a lonely." And the whole living in a lonely." And the whole church went, it took the midnight train.

church went, it took the midnight train. church went, it took the midnight train. And the whole church joined in and we And the whole church joined in and we And the whole church joined in and we did a song. I said, "You got to make did a song. I said, "You got to make did a song. I said, "You got to make sure you always include the sinners when sure you always include the sinners when sure you always include the sinners when you" And so, I'm calling them sinners you" And so, I'm calling them sinners you" And so, I'm calling them sinners while making a joke about it. So, how while making a joke about it. So, how while making a joke about it. So, how easy would it be as I preach the gospel easy would it be as I preach the gospel easy would it be as I preach the gospel for that same person to to repent? And for that same person to to repent? And for that same person to to repent? And so, that's funny. Um, so, that's funny. Um, so, that's funny. Um, >> it it's those types of things. You got >> it it's those types of things. You got >> it it's those types of things. You got to know your, you know, know your to know your, you know, know your to know your, you know, know your audience, know your different things and audience, know your different things and audience, know your different things and all those different things. And I'm not all those different things. And I'm not all those different things. And I'm not an expert on comedy, but, you know, I've an expert on comedy, but, you know, I've an expert on comedy, but, you know, I've done a lot of research on and had done a lot of research on and had done a lot of research on and had comedians speak in my life and help um comedians speak in my life and help um comedians speak in my life and help um make me better at it. And I don't know make me better at it. And I don't know make me better at it. And I don't know that anyone would have ever heard me that anyone would have ever heard me that anyone would have ever heard me communicate and not laugh or at least communicate and not laugh or at least communicate and not laugh or at least chuckle depending on, you know, what chuckle depending on, you know, what chuckle depending on, you know, what what the audience is. So, um, hopefully what the audience is. So, um, hopefully what the audience is. So, um, hopefully that's helpful and makes sense. that's helpful and makes sense. that's helpful and makes sense. >> Yeah. So, comedy and music, what is one >> Yeah. So, comedy and music, what is one >> Yeah. So, comedy and music, what is one aspect of the music business, aspect of the music business, aspect of the music business, particularly in a place like LA, which, particularly in a place like LA, which, particularly in a place like LA, which, you know, between LA and New York, you know, between LA and New York, you know, between LA and New York, you're in the music capital and you're in the music capital and you're in the music capital and Nashville, I guess. Um, what is one side Nashville, I guess. Um, what is one side Nashville, I guess. Um, what is one side of the music industry that nobody really of the music industry that nobody really of the music industry that nobody really realizes is there that you saw? realizes is there that you saw? realizes is there that you saw? Um, one of the Um, one of the Um, one of the is that people who have dreams is that people who have dreams is that people who have dreams um for doing music, one of the things um for doing music, one of the things um for doing music, one of the things that people don't realize about the that people don't realize about the that people don't realize about the music business is um the way that the music business is um the way that the music business is um the way that the business side of that industry can kill business side of that industry can kill business side of that industry can kill the soul of a human being, you know. Um the soul of a human being, you know. Um the soul of a human being, you know. Um I the church healed me um from the music I the church healed me um from the music I the church healed me um from the music business. Um, I think that when people business. Um, I think that when people business. Um, I think that when people say they have a dream to do music, then say they have a dream to do music, then say they have a dream to do music, then that that's not what they're really that that's not what they're really that that's not what they're really saying. The moment you try to monetize

saying. The moment you try to monetize saying. The moment you try to monetize your dream, which is really difficult to your dream, which is really difficult to your dream, which is really difficult to do, you're basically saying not that do, you're basically saying not that do, you're basically saying not that your dream is music. Um, some people say your dream is music. Um, some people say your dream is music. Um, some people say they have a dream to do ministry when they have a dream to do ministry when they have a dream to do ministry when real their real dream is I want to be real their real dream is I want to be real their real dream is I want to be compensated to do ministry and those are compensated to do ministry and those are compensated to do ministry and those are two different things. And so I would say two different things. And so I would say two different things. And so I would say that um what most people don't know that um what most people don't know that um what most people don't know about the music industry is that the about the music industry is that the about the music industry is that the monetization the the attempt to monetize monetization the the attempt to monetize monetization the the attempt to monetize a dream is super taxing on on the soul a dream is super taxing on on the soul a dream is super taxing on on the soul of a human being. And um um it brought of a human being. And um um it brought of a human being. And um um it brought me to a low place and I would say that me to a low place and I would say that me to a low place and I would say that the church had to help me heal from my the church had to help me heal from my the church had to help me heal from my pursuits to monetize something that I pursuits to monetize something that I pursuits to monetize something that I felt like God had put in my heart. Um, I felt like God had put in my heart. Um, I felt like God had put in my heart. Um, I I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, the weight of having a dream that you the weight of having a dream that you the weight of having a dream that you cannot monetize or might I add cannot monetize or might I add cannot monetize or might I add monetizing something heavily that really monetizing something heavily that really monetizing something heavily that really isn't your dream. Those two things are isn't your dream. Those two things are isn't your dream. Those two things are really hard to wrestle wrestle with. really hard to wrestle wrestle with. really hard to wrestle wrestle with. >> Boy, there's a lot there, Julian. >> Boy, there's a lot there, Julian. >> Boy, there's a lot there, Julian. >> There's a there's a lot there, Carrie. A >> There's a there's a lot there, Carrie. A >> There's a there's a lot there, Carrie. A lot of people monetize something that lot of people monetize something that lot of people monetize something that isn't their dream. isn't their dream. isn't their dream. >> What was your dream?

I think I would have said back then my I think I would have said back then my dream was music. But to be honest, dream was music. But to be honest, dream was music. But to be honest, growing up, I had a really tough growing up, I had a really tough growing up, I had a really tough relationship with my mother. She passed relationship with my mother. She passed relationship with my mother. She passed when she was 19. I didn't feel like I when she was 19. I didn't feel like I when she was 19. I didn't feel like I mattered to my mom. My dad was mattered to my mom. My dad was mattered to my mom. My dad was wonderful, but often we adopt the wonderful, but often we adopt the wonderful, but often we adopt the mindset of our worst experiences, not mindset of our worst experiences, not mindset of our worst experiences, not our best ones. I think that's part of a our best ones. I think that's part of a our best ones. I think that's part of a human nature. My dad was amazing. My mom human nature. My dad was amazing. My mom human nature. My dad was amazing. My mom was really tough. And I adopted the was really tough. And I adopted the was really tough. And I adopted the mindset of my mom that didn't know how mindset of my mom that didn't know how mindset of my mom that didn't know how to love me more than my dad that did. to love me more than my dad that did. to love me more than my dad that did. And I think that I would have said my And I think that I would have said my And I think that I would have said my dream was music, but Carrie, my real dream was music, but Carrie, my real dream was music, but Carrie, my real dream was to matter. I wanted to matter. dream was to matter. I wanted to matter. dream was to matter. I wanted to matter. And I thought that being famous and And I thought that being famous and And I thought that being famous and known for my creativity would mean that known for my creativity would mean that known for my creativity would mean that I mattered. And I wanted the world to I mattered. And I wanted the world to I mattered. And I wanted the world to know that I mattered. And that's I think know that I mattered. And that's I think know that I mattered. And that's I think a good portion of anybody that's a good portion of anybody that's a good portion of anybody that's pursuing anything in the um pursuing anything in the um pursuing anything in the um entertainment industry. Otherwise, you entertainment industry. Otherwise, you entertainment industry. Otherwise, you wouldn't mind being at your local wouldn't mind being at your local wouldn't mind being at your local theater. You wouldn't mind making music theater. You wouldn't mind making music theater. You wouldn't mind making music with your buddies, but there's something with your buddies, but there's something with your buddies, but there's something in our soul that we want to matter. So in our soul that we want to matter. So in our soul that we want to matter. So that's in hindsight, that's what I would that's in hindsight, that's what I would that's in hindsight, that's what I would have said.

have said. have said. >> Were you in the music industry before >> Were you in the music industry before >> Were you in the music industry before your mom passed away? You were 19 when your mom passed away? You were 19 when your mom passed away? You were 19 when she died. she died. she died. >> Yeah. I mean, I I would have been the >> Yeah. I mean, I I would have been the >> Yeah. I mean, I I would have been the first time I ever recorded a song, we first time I ever recorded a song, we first time I ever recorded a song, we drove up to Ice Te's house when I was 16 drove up to Ice Te's house when I was 16 drove up to Ice Te's house when I was 16 years old in Hollywood Hills and we years old in Hollywood Hills and we years old in Hollywood Hills and we would um on the weekend I'd drive up would um on the weekend I'd drive up would um on the weekend I'd drive up there with my friends. It'd be Friday there with my friends. It'd be Friday there with my friends. It'd be Friday night. He'd be in the studio till 1:00 night. He'd be in the studio till 1:00 night. He'd be in the studio till 1:00 a.m. We'd sleep on the floor till 1:00 a.m. We'd sleep on the floor till 1:00 a.m. We'd sleep on the floor till 1:00 a.m. and he'd go somewhere um and we a.m. and he'd go somewhere um and we a.m. and he'd go somewhere um and we would record in his studio in his home would record in his studio in his home would record in his studio in his home from 1:00 a.m. to uh 5:00 a.m. and then from 1:00 a.m. to uh 5:00 a.m. and then from 1:00 a.m. to uh 5:00 a.m. and then sleep on the floor another few hours and sleep on the floor another few hours and sleep on the floor another few hours and drive home. So yeah, it was a lifelong drive home. So yeah, it was a lifelong drive home. So yeah, it was a lifelong thing. Comedy, music, um, anything like thing. Comedy, music, um, anything like thing. Comedy, music, um, anything like it was a lifelong thing just anything it was a lifelong thing just anything it was a lifelong thing just anything creative, but it kind of h, you know, creative, but it kind of h, you know, creative, but it kind of h, you know, balanced itself and landed on on music. balanced itself and landed on on music. balanced itself and landed on on music. >> What was the height of your career in >> What was the height of your career in >> What was the height of your career in music for you? The song you wrote, the music for you? The song you wrote, the music for you? The song you wrote, the moment that you remember as sort of, oh, moment that you remember as sort of, oh, moment that you remember as sort of, oh, I've hit this is this was the highest I've hit this is this was the highest I've hit this is this was the highest you got. you got. you got. I think the first time we signed a I think the first time we signed a I think the first time we signed a publishing deal with Cobalt Music publishing deal with Cobalt Music publishing deal with Cobalt Music Publishing and the first time that I Publishing and the first time that I Publishing and the first time that I had, you know, tens of thousands of had, you know, tens of thousands of had, you know, tens of thousands of dollars hit my account for something dollars hit my account for something dollars hit my account for something that I wrote. Um, you know, I was in that I wrote. Um, you know, I was in that I wrote. Um, you know, I was in tears. I think the second time would tears. I think the second time would tears. I think the second time would have been we were on uh this album of have been we were on uh this album of have been we were on uh this album of this massive K-pop back then, pop star this massive K-pop back then, pop star this massive K-pop back then, pop star Boa. Um, and you know, um, we were told, Boa. Um, and you know, um, we were told, Boa. Um, and you know, um, we were told, oh, this is going to change your life oh, this is going to change your life oh, this is going to change your life forever. Um, and to some degree it did,

forever. Um, and to some degree it did, forever. Um, and to some degree it did, cuz it opened up more doors. But yeah, I cuz it opened up more doors. But yeah, I cuz it opened up more doors. But yeah, I would say like, um, would say like, um, would say like, um, uh, those types of moments. Um, but but uh, those types of moments. Um, but but uh, those types of moments. Um, but but really to be honest, like I could go really to be honest, like I could go really to be honest, like I could go down the list of the things that I down the list of the things that I down the list of the things that I thought were something. Um, thought were something. Um, thought were something. Um, and in music and and in music and and in music and where it led to in the end wasn't what where it led to in the end wasn't what where it led to in the end wasn't what that height felt like in that moment. that height felt like in that moment. that height felt like in that moment. And I remember now being the lead pastor And I remember now being the lead pastor And I remember now being the lead pastor of Oasis now for 6 years. Um, I remember of Oasis now for 6 years. Um, I remember of Oasis now for 6 years. Um, I remember I could take you to the table I was I could take you to the table I was I could take you to the table I was sitting at with the very first time my sitting at with the very first time my sitting at with the very first time my pastor who's our founding pastor, Pastor pastor who's our founding pastor, Pastor pastor who's our founding pastor, Pastor Philip, invited me for coffee. And that Philip, invited me for coffee. And that Philip, invited me for coffee. And that didn't feel like the height of anything, didn't feel like the height of anything, didn't feel like the height of anything, but that was probably one of the most but that was probably one of the most but that was probably one of the most significant moments um of my life significant moments um of my life significant moments um of my life because that was the first time that I because that was the first time that I because that was the first time that I sat down with the pastor I would um sat down with the pastor I would um sat down with the pastor I would um literally nine years from that day be literally nine years from that day be literally nine years from that day be the the succeeding pastor. So, I could the the succeeding pastor. So, I could the the succeeding pastor. So, I could bring up a lot of moments, but none of bring up a lot of moments, but none of bring up a lot of moments, but none of those moments when they all look back um those moments when they all look back um those moments when they all look back um were what I thought they were in that were what I thought they were in that were what I thought they were in that moment. But I've had some unbelievable moment. But I've had some unbelievable moment. But I've had some unbelievable moments, care, like moments where moments, care, like moments where moments, care, like moments where Beyonce's listening to our music and is Beyonce's listening to our music and is Beyonce's listening to our music and is thinking about recording our songs and I thinking about recording our songs and I thinking about recording our songs and I remember what that felt like. Or moments remember what that felt like. Or moments remember what that felt like. Or moments where some huge producer is saying, where some huge producer is saying, where some huge producer is saying, "Hey, I want to um I I I believe in your "Hey, I want to um I I I believe in your "Hey, I want to um I I I believe in your music." Most of the moments are being music." Most of the moments are being music." Most of the moments are being believed in. I could pull up old emails believed in. I could pull up old emails believed in. I could pull up old emails right now. The president of Apple Music,

right now. The president of Apple Music, right now. The president of Apple Music, Larry Jackson, I could pull up old Larry Jackson, I could pull up old Larry Jackson, I could pull up old emails from him when he was at Arista emails from him when he was at Arista emails from him when he was at Arista Records with Clive Davis and you guys Records with Clive Davis and you guys Records with Clive Davis and you guys are going to be the biggest songwriters. are going to be the biggest songwriters. are going to be the biggest songwriters. So, most of the moments were moments So, most of the moments were moments So, most of the moments were moments that felt like, that felt like, that felt like, >> yeah, they're big names. Like mo most of >> yeah, they're big names. Like mo most of >> yeah, they're big names. Like mo most of those moments felt like moments that my those moments felt like moments that my those moments felt like moments that my life was going to be changed forever. life was going to be changed forever. life was going to be changed forever. >> Um, but they weren't. And most of the >> Um, but they weren't. And most of the >> Um, but they weren't. And most of the moments that I could tell you right now moments that I could tell you right now moments that I could tell you right now that you don't think would mean anything that you don't think would mean anything that you don't think would mean anything have actually changed my life. So it's have actually changed my life. So it's have actually changed my life. So it's the weird it's a weird thing with my the weird it's a weird thing with my the weird it's a weird thing with my life. Some of the most insignificant life. Some of the most insignificant life. Some of the most insignificant things have turned in the most things have turned in the most things have turned in the most significant things. And some of the significant things. And some of the significant things. And some of the things I thought were so significant things I thought were so significant things I thought were so significant ended up not being much. So, but yeah. ended up not being much. So, but yeah. ended up not being much. So, but yeah. >> So, you know, I think a lot of us who >> So, you know, I think a lot of us who >> So, you know, I think a lot of us who who do this kind of semi-public role in who do this kind of semi-public role in who do this kind of semi-public role in ministry, we're looking for validation ministry, we're looking for validation ministry, we're looking for validation when, you know, Beyonce is listening to when, you know, Beyonce is listening to when, you know, Beyonce is listening to a song you wrote or Clive Davis is a song you wrote or Clive Davis is a song you wrote or Clive Davis is emailing you. Did what was that like? emailing you. Did what was that like? emailing you. Did what was that like? Did that feel like validation? Was Did that feel like validation? Was Did that feel like validation? Was validation a part of that? How did it validation a part of that? How did it validation a part of that? How did it leave you feeling in the end? leave you feeling in the end? leave you feeling in the end? Yeah. You know, Yeah. You know, Yeah. You know, I think that I think that I think that I think about for me and I think about I think about for me and I think about I think about for me and I think about the presence of God. I think about the the presence of God. I think about the the presence of God. I think about the presence of God being with me right now.

presence of God being with me right now. presence of God being with me right now. The presence of God is on this podcast The presence of God is on this podcast The presence of God is on this podcast with me and you. And I think one of the with me and you. And I think one of the with me and you. And I think one of the traps of the industry for me personally traps of the industry for me personally traps of the industry for me personally was was was there was always someone else's presence there was always someone else's presence there was always someone else's presence that was a human that would validate who that was a human that would validate who that was a human that would validate who I was more than God's presence cuz I was I was more than God's presence cuz I was I was more than God's presence cuz I was a Christian. But like if I get in a room a Christian. But like if I get in a room a Christian. But like if I get in a room with God that matters. No, that doesn't with God that matters. No, that doesn't with God that matters. No, that doesn't matter. I need to be in a room with this matter. I need to be in a room with this matter. I need to be in a room with this person. And being in a in a room with a person. And being in a in a room with a person. And being in a in a room with a person was validating my existence, my person was validating my existence, my person was validating my existence, my art, my creativity. Um, and it was a art, my creativity. Um, and it was a art, my creativity. Um, and it was a slippery um, slope. Um, later on when I slippery um, slope. Um, later on when I slippery um, slope. Um, later on when I would be a pastor, um, I had a would be a pastor, um, I had a would be a pastor, um, I had a relationship that with one of the most relationship that with one of the most relationship that with one of the most massive pop stars in the world. So much massive pop stars in the world. So much massive pop stars in the world. So much so that they performed at the Super so that they performed at the Super so that they performed at the Super Bowl. They were the headliner of the Bowl. They were the headliner of the Bowl. They were the headliner of the Super Bowl. And to give you example, I Super Bowl. And to give you example, I Super Bowl. And to give you example, I was already pastoring the church and I was already pastoring the church and I was already pastoring the church and I text them, I'm so proud of your Super text them, I'm so proud of your Super text them, I'm so proud of your Super Bowl performance. And I remember Bowl performance. And I remember Bowl performance. And I remember thinking, I always wanted to be in a thinking, I always wanted to be in a thinking, I always wanted to be in a place where I could be associated with place where I could be associated with place where I could be associated with people that are headlining the Super people that are headlining the Super people that are headlining the Super Bowl. And so it was crazy. So I went and Bowl. And so it was crazy. So I went and Bowl. And so it was crazy. So I went and text that person, great job. So proud of text that person, great job. So proud of text that person, great job. So proud of you. But then um 5 minutes later, I you. But then um 5 minutes later, I you. But then um 5 minutes later, I found myself on Instagram posting a found myself on Instagram posting a found myself on Instagram posting a picture of their performance and saying, picture of their performance and saying, picture of their performance and saying, "Hey, I'm so proud of you." And I felt "Hey, I'm so proud of you." And I felt "Hey, I'm so proud of you." And I felt the Holy Spir say to me, "Why did you do the Holy Spir say to me, "Why did you do the Holy Spir say to me, "Why did you do that?"

that?" that?" Like, "Cuz I'm proud of them." "Well, Like, "Cuz I'm proud of them." "Well, Like, "Cuz I'm proud of them." "Well, you already told them you were proud of you already told them you were proud of you already told them you were proud of them." And what I realized is that them." And what I realized is that them." And what I realized is that wasn't enough. I needed to let people wasn't enough. I needed to let people wasn't enough. I needed to let people who were following me know that I knew who were following me know that I knew who were following me know that I knew this person. And so even as a pastor, this person. And so even as a pastor, this person. And so even as a pastor, that has still that has still that has still um crept into my heart a little bit like um crept into my heart a little bit like um crept into my heart a little bit like who I know and who I'm with. And I got who I know and who I'm with. And I got who I know and who I'm with. And I got to do a wedding of a celebrity at People to do a wedding of a celebrity at People to do a wedding of a celebrity at People um and the wedding ended up being in um and the wedding ended up being in um and the wedding ended up being in People magazine. So I was in People People magazine. So I was in People People magazine. So I was in People magazine. I went to post that I was in magazine. I went to post that I was in magazine. I went to post that I was in People magazine and felt a check, you People magazine and felt a check, you People magazine and felt a check, you know. Um know. Um know. Um >> it's one of the reasons why if I if I >> it's one of the reasons why if I if I >> it's one of the reasons why if I if I ever go to a church, Carrie, I don't let ever go to a church, Carrie, I don't let ever go to a church, Carrie, I don't let people host me. Meaning that, hey, you people host me. Meaning that, hey, you people host me. Meaning that, hey, you can give me a hotel room, but I don't can give me a hotel room, but I don't can give me a hotel room, but I don't want to be waited on hand and foot. And want to be waited on hand and foot. And want to be waited on hand and foot. And churches hate it when I do this. And I churches hate it when I do this. And I churches hate it when I do this. And I just like to walk in the front door. just like to walk in the front door. just like to walk in the front door. Please don't park my car. I'm good. And Please don't park my car. I'm good. And Please don't park my car. I'm good. And they hate it when I do this. And so one they hate it when I do this. And so one they hate it when I do this. And so one guy asked me about it and he said, um, guy asked me about it and he said, um, guy asked me about it and he said, um, well, why do you do that? I said, "If well, why do you do that? I said, "If well, why do you do that? I said, "If you had a recovering um alcoholic, you had a recovering um alcoholic, you had a recovering um alcoholic, um would you take them to a bar?" And he um would you take them to a bar?" And he um would you take them to a bar?" And he said, "No." And I said, "Well, I'm said, "No." And I said, "Well, I'm said, "No." And I said, "Well, I'm recovering from pride and insecurity, so recovering from pride and insecurity, so recovering from pride and insecurity, so I don't need to be waited on hand and I don't need to be waited on hand and I don't need to be waited on hand and foot. It it would harm." So, he's just foot. It it would harm." So, he's just foot. It it would harm." So, he's just like laughing.

like laughing. like laughing. >> But it's like for me that that's my >> But it's like for me that that's my >> But it's like for me that that's my sickness. That's my illness. Needing to sickness. That's my illness. Needing to sickness. That's my illness. Needing to be seen, known, treated like I matter. be seen, known, treated like I matter. be seen, known, treated like I matter. And so when people are treat And so when people are treat And so when people are treat overtreating me like I matter because overtreating me like I matter because overtreating me like I matter because I'm the one with the microphone, it I'm the one with the microphone, it I'm the one with the microphone, it actually hurts me. It hurts my ministry. actually hurts me. It hurts my ministry. actually hurts me. It hurts my ministry. It hurts my perspective on who God is. It hurts my perspective on who God is. It hurts my perspective on who God is. So that's the way I would kind of like So that's the way I would kind of like So that's the way I would kind of like um say it's all a it's like a mist that um say it's all a it's like a mist that um say it's all a it's like a mist that fades and it feels so good to be in the fades and it feels so good to be in the fades and it feels so good to be in the mist. mist. mist. Um, Um, Um, it feels I can't tell you how how it feels I can't tell you how how it feels I can't tell you how how amazing Carrie it feels to be in the amazing Carrie it feels to be in the amazing Carrie it feels to be in the midst of influence and famous people and midst of influence and famous people and midst of influence and famous people and money. And I cannot tell you how money. And I cannot tell you how money. And I cannot tell you how profoundly painful it is when the mist profoundly painful it is when the mist profoundly painful it is when the mist fades. And it always does. It always fades. And it always does. It always fades. And it always does. It always does. I was somebody for a few years and does. I was somebody for a few years and does. I was somebody for a few years and a nobody for more for more years than a nobody for more for more years than a nobody for more for more years than that. And that's that. And that's that. And that's there's no pain to describe when I had there's no pain to describe when I had there's no pain to describe when I had to pick myself up off of the when the to pick myself up off of the when the to pick myself up off of the when the phone calls stop and the sessions stop phone calls stop and the sessions stop phone calls stop and the sessions stop and the you know and you know they they and the you know and you know they they and the you know and you know they they found somebody else you know um so yeah found somebody else you know um so yeah found somebody else you know um so yeah that's the way I would describe that that's the way I would describe that that's the way I would describe that whole thing.

Yeah, I'm just processing. I mean thank Yeah, I'm just processing. I mean thank you for your transparency. I mean just you for your transparency. I mean just you for your transparency. I mean just being totally transparent. I'm sometimes being totally transparent. I'm sometimes being totally transparent. I'm sometimes a little too excited about who the a little too excited about who the a little too excited about who the guests on this podcast are. You know, it guests on this podcast are. You know, it guests on this podcast are. You know, it gives you proximity to people. It's a gives you proximity to people. It's a gives you proximity to people. It's a name association sometimes, you know, name association sometimes, you know, name association sometimes, you know, with your friend at the Super Bowl, with your friend at the Super Bowl, with your friend at the Super Bowl, texting him, but then posting about it texting him, but then posting about it texting him, but then posting about it after. I totally understand that after. I totally understand that after. I totally understand that dynamic. dynamic. dynamic. >> What >> What >> What And I think there's a lot of that in And I think there's a lot of that in And I think there's a lot of that in ministry. There's a lot of insecurity. ministry. There's a lot of insecurity. ministry. There's a lot of insecurity. There's a lot of ego. There's a lot of, There's a lot of ego. There's a lot of, There's a lot of ego. There's a lot of, "Oh, I'm in a green room. I want to get "Oh, I'm in a green room. I want to get "Oh, I'm in a green room. I want to get a picture with XYZ." Right? a picture with XYZ." Right? a picture with XYZ." Right? When the mist fades, When the mist fades, When the mist fades, what helped you adjust? what helped you adjust? what helped you adjust? Because there's a day when all of our Because there's a day when all of our Because there's a day when all of our phone stop ringing and the emails stop phone stop ringing and the emails stop phone stop ringing and the emails stop coming and we're not who we once were. coming and we're not who we once were. coming and we're not who we once were. What what has helped you adjust to a What what has helped you adjust to a What what has helped you adjust to a quote less glamorous quote less glamorous quote less glamorous calling? Um, Um, I think what what helped me adjust the I think what what helped me adjust the I think what what helped me adjust the most would be um, most would be um, most would be um, you know, I I I would say that a lot of you know, I I I would say that a lot of you know, I I I would say that a lot of people um, do not reflect, people um, do not reflect, people um, do not reflect, right? So they're they live in the right? So they're they live in the right? So they're they live in the future. What's next? What and there's a future. What's next? What and there's a future. What's next? What and there's a good way for do that. Most people are good way for do that. Most people are good way for do that. Most people are driven today by something they want to driven today by something they want to driven today by something they want to happen tomorrow.

happen tomorrow. happen tomorrow. Um, your average leader is driven today Um, your average leader is driven today Um, your average leader is driven today by something they want to happen by something they want to happen by something they want to happen tomorrow. And when I say tomorrow, I say tomorrow. And when I say tomorrow, I say tomorrow. And when I say tomorrow, I say that from like this generalization of that from like this generalization of that from like this generalization of the future, a goal, a dream, a vision. the future, a goal, a dream, a vision. the future, a goal, a dream, a vision. Um, you know, most pastors would have a Um, you know, most pastors would have a Um, you know, most pastors would have a vision Sunday. They would never have a vision Sunday. They would never have a vision Sunday. They would never have a reflection Sunday. They would never say, reflection Sunday. They would never say, reflection Sunday. They would never say, "Hey, this is like what I've learned in "Hey, this is like what I've learned in "Hey, this is like what I've learned in the last 10 years. This is what I I did the last 10 years. This is what I I did the last 10 years. This is what I I did 10 years ago that I hope you don't do 10 years ago that I hope you don't do 10 years ago that I hope you don't do today." Everything is forward, forward, today." Everything is forward, forward, today." Everything is forward, forward, forward. So, I think creating a habit of forward. So, I think creating a habit of forward. So, I think creating a habit of like when you ask me about I haven't like when you ask me about I haven't like when you ask me about I haven't been in the music business in 15 years, been in the music business in 15 years, been in the music business in 15 years, but when you ask me about it, I'm able but when you ask me about it, I'm able but when you ask me about it, I'm able to articulate to articulate to articulate clearly what I've learned because I clearly what I've learned because I clearly what I've learned because I spend more time reflecting about um spend more time reflecting about um spend more time reflecting about um yesterday than projecting about yesterday than projecting about yesterday than projecting about tomorrow. And that makes my tomorrow way tomorrow. And that makes my tomorrow way tomorrow. And that makes my tomorrow way more clear. And it allows me to live by more clear. And it allows me to live by more clear. And it allows me to live by when God's wanting me to live by faith. when God's wanting me to live by faith. when God's wanting me to live by faith. Clarity is my enemy. Um, so in every Clarity is my enemy. Um, so in every Clarity is my enemy. Um, so in every season I don't always know what's ahead, season I don't always know what's ahead, season I don't always know what's ahead, but I always have that part of me to but I always have that part of me to but I always have that part of me to reflect on this is what I've been reflect on this is what I've been reflect on this is what I've been through. This is what my experience is.

through. This is what my experience is. through. This is what my experience is. This is where I messed that up. This is This is where I messed that up. This is This is where I messed that up. This is what I would have done different. Um, what I would have done different. Um, what I would have done different. Um, and so yeah, I think that would that's and so yeah, I think that would that's and so yeah, I think that would that's how I would answer that question. Just how I would answer that question. Just how I would answer that question. Just the developing the principle of being the developing the principle of being the developing the principle of being reflective reflective reflective um about yesterday and not just um about yesterday and not just um about yesterday and not just visionary about tomorrow. when you got visionary about tomorrow. when you got visionary about tomorrow. when you got the tap on the shoulder, that the tap on the shoulder, that the tap on the shoulder, that conversation that opened up the conversation that opened up the conversation that opened up the possibility that you might become the possibility that you might become the possibility that you might become the lead pastor of Oasis, what what went lead pastor of Oasis, what what went lead pastor of Oasis, what what went through you? What was that conversation through you? What was that conversation through you? What was that conversation like? like? like? I think I think I think fear fear fear um um um honestly some disappointment. You know, honestly some disappointment. You know, honestly some disappointment. You know, I had worked really hard to be in I had worked really hard to be in I had worked really hard to be in another space. Um another space. Um another space. Um >> wait, wait, wait, wait. Disappointment. >> wait, wait, wait, wait. Disappointment. >> wait, wait, wait, wait. Disappointment. Okay, say more. I'm going to be like I think I'm going to be like I think transparently I my wife and I was never transparently I my wife and I was never transparently I my wife and I was never our dream to pastor a church. our dream to pastor a church. our dream to pastor a church. >> Um I feel like one of the reasons that >> Um I feel like one of the reasons that >> Um I feel like one of the reasons that makes me an effective leader if I want makes me an effective leader if I want makes me an effective leader if I want to if I'm careful to use that word and to if I'm careful to use that word and to if I'm careful to use that word and not sound arrogant or prideful but I not sound arrogant or prideful but I not sound arrogant or prideful but I think the church is doing really well.

think the church is doing really well. think the church is doing really well. It's growing. It's healthy. This isn't It's growing. It's healthy. This isn't It's growing. It's healthy. This isn't my dream. So when you leave the church my dream. So when you leave the church my dream. So when you leave the church on last minute notice you know and you on last minute notice you know and you on last minute notice you know and you quit after I've invested in you. you're quit after I've invested in you. you're quit after I've invested in you. you're not hurting my dream. You're not hurting not hurting my dream. You're not hurting not hurting my dream. You're not hurting me. My my identity is not wrapped up me. My my identity is not wrapped up me. My my identity is not wrapped up into it. And so it was never my dream. into it. And so it was never my dream. into it. And so it was never my dream. This started off with, wait a minute, um This started off with, wait a minute, um This started off with, wait a minute, um that pop star that I told you about, I that pop star that I told you about, I that pop star that I told you about, I was pastoring them. I wanted to write was pastoring them. I wanted to write was pastoring them. I wanted to write with them. Not pastor them, I wanted to with them. Not pastor them, I wanted to with them. Not pastor them, I wanted to write with them. And so it was a little write with them. And so it was a little write with them. And so it was a little bit of a disappointment. I didn't want bit of a disappointment. I didn't want bit of a disappointment. I didn't want to pastor a church. I wanted to do to pastor a church. I wanted to do to pastor a church. I wanted to do something creative. And so, um, that something creative. And so, um, that something creative. And so, um, that disappointment has now turned to joy. disappointment has now turned to joy. disappointment has now turned to joy. But in the beginning, I was like, I was But in the beginning, I was like, I was But in the beginning, I was like, I was doing this to help my pastor. I was doing this to help my pastor. I was doing this to help my pastor. I was doing this because I loved him. I doing this because I loved him. I doing this because I loved him. I believe in him, you know, still do. And believe in him, you know, still do. And believe in him, you know, still do. And I was doing this to serve him. I wasn't, I was doing this to serve him. I wasn't, I was doing this to serve him. I wasn't, this wasn't a stepping stone for me. Um, this wasn't a stepping stone for me. Um, this wasn't a stepping stone for me. Um, Oasis is the only church I've ever been Oasis is the only church I've ever been Oasis is the only church I've ever been planted in. planted in. planted in. >> Um, I'm never I didn't I grew up in >> Um, I'm never I didn't I grew up in >> Um, I'm never I didn't I grew up in church, going to church here and there, church, going to church here and there, church, going to church here and there, but like I I never served on a church.

but like I I never served on a church. but like I I never served on a church. Oasis is the first church I served. I Oasis is the first church I served. I Oasis is the first church I served. I would have definitely been going to would have definitely been going to would have definitely been going to heaven, but if they give away mansions heaven, but if they give away mansions heaven, but if they give away mansions in heaven, I would have had a duplex in in heaven, I would have had a duplex in in heaven, I would have had a duplex in the back. Like I I was not following God the back. Like I I was not following God the back. Like I I was not following God like that at all. Like my entire 20s. So like that at all. Like my entire 20s. So like that at all. Like my entire 20s. So I go to Oasis, I'm serving. So from the I go to Oasis, I'm serving. So from the I go to Oasis, I'm serving. So from the time I went to Oasis, time I went to Oasis, time I went to Oasis, the first Sunday that I attended the first Sunday that I attended the first Sunday that I attended uh was uh in the summer of 2010, I was uh was uh in the summer of 2010, I was uh was uh in the summer of 2010, I was transitioning into the lead pastor role transitioning into the lead pastor role transitioning into the lead pastor role in October of 2009. M in October of 2009. M in October of 2009. M >> this was like a whirlwind of like >> this was like a whirlwind of like >> this was like a whirlwind of like miracles and calling. So while what God miracles and calling. So while what God miracles and calling. So while what God wanted for me in the church was thriving wanted for me in the church was thriving wanted for me in the church was thriving and living everything I had ever wanted and living everything I had ever wanted and living everything I had ever wanted for my own life was dying. And so it's for my own life was dying. And so it's for my own life was dying. And so it's like you're dressed for a birthday party like you're dressed for a birthday party like you're dressed for a birthday party at a funeral or dressed for a funeral at at a funeral or dressed for a funeral at at a funeral or dressed for a funeral at a birthday party. And it's like the a birthday party. And it's like the a birthday party. And it's like the dichotomy of all those sames emotions. dichotomy of all those sames emotions. dichotomy of all those sames emotions. If you're doing anything for God, If you're doing anything for God, If you're doing anything for God, something's living and dying at the same something's living and dying at the same something's living and dying at the same time, I think, if you're doing it right.

time, I think, if you're doing it right. time, I think, if you're doing it right. So, there's there's pain and promises in So, there's there's pain and promises in So, there's there's pain and promises in the same person. Like, you know, it it the same person. Like, you know, it it the same person. Like, you know, it it it was so fruitful and so painful. It it was so fruitful and so painful. It it was so fruitful and so painful. It was so awesome and so scary. It was all was so awesome and so scary. It was all was so awesome and so scary. It was all those things. So, it was tough. Um, those things. So, it was tough. Um, those things. So, it was tough. Um, really tough. really tough. really tough. >> Did you say you got tapped on the >> Did you say you got tapped on the >> Did you say you got tapped on the shoulder before you started attending shoulder before you started attending shoulder before you started attending the church? the church? the church? >> No. No. So, I was >> No. No. So, I was >> No. No. So, I was >> I just wanted to get the chronology >> I just wanted to get the chronology >> I just wanted to get the chronology right. Maybe I misheard. right. Maybe I misheard. right. Maybe I misheard. >> Yeah. So, I was a volunteer in 2010. >> Yeah. So, I was a volunteer in 2010. >> Yeah. So, I was a volunteer in 2010. Um, I came on staff. I was a kids guy. Um, I came on staff. I was a kids guy. Um, I came on staff. I was a kids guy. So, kids pastor. Um, I'm probably not So, kids pastor. Um, I'm probably not So, kids pastor. Um, I'm probably not even uh I can say this. I'm one of the even uh I can say this. I'm one of the even uh I can say this. I'm one of the greatest kids pastors, Carrie, that have greatest kids pastors, Carrie, that have greatest kids pastors, Carrie, that have ever lived on the face of the earth. I ever lived on the face of the earth. I ever lived on the face of the earth. I can say that with full confidence. I had can say that with full confidence. I had can say that with full confidence. I had I mean, preschool pastor Carrie. I had I mean, preschool pastor Carrie. I had I mean, preschool pastor Carrie. I had my own puppets. I had Reverend Billy my own puppets. I had Reverend Billy my own puppets. I had Reverend Billy Graham Cracker was one of my puppets. TD Graham Cracker was one of my puppets. TD Graham Cracker was one of my puppets. TD Milkshakes and for diversity, Tito Milkshakes and for diversity, Tito Milkshakes and for diversity, Tito testimony. Come on, somebody. This I am testimony. Come on, somebody. This I am testimony. Come on, somebody. This I am if if kids ministry at Oasis had a hall if if kids ministry at Oasis had a hall if if kids ministry at Oasis had a hall of fame, I'm in it. Let me just say of fame, I'm in it. Let me just say of fame, I'm in it. Let me just say that. Far as lead pastor, who knows? But that. Far as lead pastor, who knows? But that. Far as lead pastor, who knows? But kids pastor, I'm in it. So, I grew up in kids pastor, I'm in it. So, I grew up in kids pastor, I'm in it. So, I grew up in kids ministry and um even today, like, kids ministry and um even today, like, kids ministry and um even today, like, you know, I'm still known as a kids you know, I'm still known as a kids you know, I'm still known as a kids whisperer. We have a rule on our staff whisperer. We have a rule on our staff whisperer. We have a rule on our staff that any kid can interrupt any meeting that any kid can interrupt any meeting that any kid can interrupt any meeting for any reason. Um, that's just our for any reason. Um, that's just our for any reason. Um, that's just our culture. Um, I I have a cake pop budget culture. Um, I I have a cake pop budget culture. Um, I I have a cake pop budget so that any kid can come get a cake pop so that any kid can come get a cake pop so that any kid can come get a cake pop after church. Um, so I was a kids guy

after church. Um, so I was a kids guy after church. Um, so I was a kids guy and Pastor Philip said he wanted to meet and Pastor Philip said he wanted to meet and Pastor Philip said he wanted to meet this guy that everybody was calling the this guy that everybody was calling the this guy that everybody was calling the kids whisperer and he started spending kids whisperer and he started spending kids whisperer and he started spending time with me. Um, they eventually had me time with me. Um, they eventually had me time with me. Um, they eventually had me come on staff in 2013. I believe he got come on staff in 2013. I believe he got come on staff in 2013. I believe he got cancer at 20 2014 and it took him a year cancer at 20 2014 and it took him a year cancer at 20 2014 and it took him a year to beat cancer and um uh a lot of change to beat cancer and um uh a lot of change to beat cancer and um uh a lot of change happened in transition while he was gone happened in transition while he was gone happened in transition while he was gone recovering from that. It was about a recovering from that. It was about a recovering from that. It was about a 2-year recovery. A lot of change. A lot 2-year recovery. A lot of change. A lot 2-year recovery. A lot of change. A lot of people quit. They thought certain of people quit. They thought certain of people quit. They thought certain people were going to be pastors. I don't people were going to be pastors. I don't people were going to be pastors. I don't know what was going on with that. And so know what was going on with that. And so know what was going on with that. And so I kind of was just helping him rebuild I kind of was just helping him rebuild I kind of was just helping him rebuild things and recover from cancer. And it things and recover from cancer. And it things and recover from cancer. And it turned into me leading the church. There turned into me leading the church. There turned into me leading the church. There was no real big plan. I just kept taking was no real big plan. I just kept taking was no real big plan. I just kept taking things off his plate trying to help him. things off his plate trying to help him. things off his plate trying to help him. And when I took something off his plate And when I took something off his plate And when I took something off his plate to help him, it flourished. That was to help him, it flourished. That was to help him, it flourished. That was kind of the plan. He told me maybe a kind of the plan. He told me maybe a kind of the plan. He told me maybe a year. So if I took over the church, my year. So if I took over the church, my year. So if I took over the church, my wife and I, October 2019, he told me one wife and I, October 2019, he told me one wife and I, October 2019, he told me one year earlier than that. year earlier than that. year earlier than that. >> Got it. But I found the date that I was >> Got it. But I found the date that I was >> Got it. But I found the date that I was taking over the church in May of 2019. I taking over the church in May of 2019. I taking over the church in May of 2019. I found out that it was going to be found out that it was going to be found out that it was going to be October.

October. October. >> Man, that was fast. and a lot of >> Man, that was fast. and a lot of >> Man, that was fast. and a lot of obviously the calling of God, but a lot obviously the calling of God, but a lot obviously the calling of God, but a lot of um just unfortunate health challenges of um just unfortunate health challenges of um just unfortunate health challenges I think expedited that a little bit. But I think expedited that a little bit. But I think expedited that a little bit. But yeah, it was a pretty quick I was only yeah, it was a pretty quick I was only yeah, it was a pretty quick I was only on I was on staff six years on I was on staff six years on I was on staff six years >> total before my transition service and >> total before my transition service and >> total before my transition service and started off as staff as an elementary started off as staff as an elementary started off as staff as an elementary school director and preschool. So school director and preschool. So school director and preschool. So >> So six years in, what's your biggest >> So six years in, what's your biggest >> So six years in, what's your biggest surprise about the job? surprise about the job? surprise about the job? >> My biggest surprise at about the job? >> My biggest surprise at about the job? >> My biggest surprise at about the job? Wow, that is a great question. I would Wow, that is a great question. I would Wow, that is a great question. I would say my biggest surprise about the job is say my biggest surprise about the job is say my biggest surprise about the job is I'm surprised by the weight that leaders I'm surprised by the weight that leaders I'm surprised by the weight that leaders carry. There's nothing to prepare you carry. There's nothing to prepare you carry. There's nothing to prepare you for the weight. I thought I'm a type of for the weight. I thought I'm a type of for the weight. I thought I'm a type of guy I'm pretty confident. Hey, I got it. guy I'm pretty confident. Hey, I got it. guy I'm pretty confident. Hey, I got it. Let's do it. It's it's there is a Let's do it. It's it's there is a Let's do it. It's it's there is a weight. You wake up with you feel it. weight. You wake up with you feel it. weight. You wake up with you feel it. You got to manage that. You when you go You got to manage that. You when you go You got to manage that. You when you go to bed, you feel it. So, I'm really um to bed, you feel it. So, I'm really um to bed, you feel it. So, I'm really um surprised um by the weight. The other surprised um by the weight. The other surprised um by the weight. The other thing I am really surprised about is um thing I am really surprised about is um thing I am really surprised about is um how much just how much just how much just um um um preaching the truth of the Bible works preaching the truth of the Bible works preaching the truth of the Bible works to reach young people. I I felt like I to reach young people. I I felt like I to reach young people. I I felt like I you know, young people stuff had to be you know, young people stuff had to be you know, young people stuff had to be hip, vibe, and cool. But I think I'm hip, vibe, and cool. But I think I'm hip, vibe, and cool. But I think I'm really surprised about how many young really surprised about how many young really surprised about how many young people in our church just want to hear people in our church just want to hear people in our church just want to hear God's word unpacked in a sound doctrinal God's word unpacked in a sound doctrinal God's word unpacked in a sound doctrinal theological way. That's the biggest theological way. That's the biggest theological way. That's the biggest thing I'm surprised is that we don't

thing I'm surprised is that we don't thing I'm surprised is that we don't really do vibey things to attract young really do vibey things to attract young really do vibey things to attract young adults. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm adults. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm adults. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm really shocked at how many young adults really shocked at how many young adults really shocked at how many young adults are in our church. This episode is are in our church. This episode is are in our church. This episode is brought to you by Convoy of Hope. So brought to you by Convoy of Hope. So brought to you by Convoy of Hope. So mark your calendars and make plans to mark your calendars and make plans to mark your calendars and make plans to join me this fall for a very historic join me this fall for a very historic join me this fall for a very historic event, incredible conference held by my event, incredible conference held by my event, incredible conference held by my good friends at Convoy of Hope. I'll be good friends at Convoy of Hope. I'll be good friends at Convoy of Hope. I'll be at the Convoy of Hopes Global at the Convoy of Hopes Global at the Convoy of Hopes Global Headquarters and Training Center in Headquarters and Training Center in Headquarters and Training Center in Springfield, Missouri, November 5th Springfield, Missouri, November 5th Springfield, Missouri, November 5th through 7th for the inaugural Hope through 7th for the inaugural Hope through 7th for the inaugural Hope Summit. It's a gathering of more than Summit. It's a gathering of more than Summit. It's a gathering of more than 12,200 church and marketplace leaders. 12,200 church and marketplace leaders. 12,200 church and marketplace leaders. and it's going to provide you with a and it's going to provide you with a and it's going to provide you with a wealth of resources designed to help you wealth of resources designed to help you wealth of resources designed to help you have a significantly greater impact in have a significantly greater impact in have a significantly greater impact in your ministry from neighborhoods to your ministry from neighborhoods to your ministry from neighborhoods to nations. Hope Summit has an amazing nations. Hope Summit has an amazing nations. Hope Summit has an amazing lineup of speakers like Chris Hodes and lineup of speakers like Chris Hodes and lineup of speakers like Chris Hodes and Jenny Allen all be speaking as well. Jenny Allen all be speaking as well. Jenny Allen all be speaking as well. Natalie Grant will be leading worship Natalie Grant will be leading worship Natalie Grant will be leading worship and can I tell you they got a great and can I tell you they got a great and can I tell you they got a great little coffee shop in that uh airport at little coffee shop in that uh airport at little coffee shop in that uh airport at Springfield. Anyway, you can register at Springfield. Anyway, you can register at Springfield. Anyway, you can register at hopesummit.com/carry hopesummit.com/carry hopesummit.com/carry to take advantage of a special to take advantage of a special to take advantage of a special discounted rate. That's discounted rate. That's discounted rate. That's hopesummit.com/carey hopesummit.com/carey hopesummit.com/carey and hope to see you this November at and hope to see you this November at and hope to see you this November at HopeSummit. What do you do with the HopeSummit. What do you do with the HopeSummit. What do you do with the weight?

Well, for me, um, I just remind myself Well, for me, um, I just remind myself it's not my church. it's not my church. it's not my church. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um, it's God's church. And that might >> Um, it's God's church. And that might >> Um, it's God's church. And that might sound cliche, but and I think every sound cliche, but and I think every sound cliche, but and I think every pastor would say it's not my church. Um, pastor would say it's not my church. Um, pastor would say it's not my church. Um, I personally believe a pastor should I personally believe a pastor should I personally believe a pastor should have vision, but they shouldn't have so have vision, but they shouldn't have so have vision, but they shouldn't have so much vision that people think they're much vision that people think they're much vision that people think they're serving their pastor, but don't realize serving their pastor, but don't realize serving their pastor, but don't realize they're serving God. It's like a weird they're serving God. It's like a weird they're serving God. It's like a weird thing. I think a lot of weight pastors thing. I think a lot of weight pastors thing. I think a lot of weight pastors create for themselves. create for themselves. create for themselves. Um, Um, Um, not I was creating a lot of weight for not I was creating a lot of weight for not I was creating a lot of weight for myself. So I think for me usually myself. So I think for me usually myself. So I think for me usually there's somebody there's somebody there's somebody around me that God has sent that if I around me that God has sent that if I around me that God has sent that if I would just empower them that I would would just empower them that I would would just empower them that I would just stop controlling it, they would just stop controlling it, they would just stop controlling it, they would take that weight um off of my plate. So take that weight um off of my plate. So take that weight um off of my plate. So when I feel the weight, I just remember when I feel the weight, I just remember when I feel the weight, I just remember the church is not mine. I remember that the church is not mine. I remember that the church is not mine. I remember that there's likely someone around me that there's likely someone around me that there's likely someone around me that God has sent to help me manage that God has sent to help me manage that God has sent to help me manage that weight that I'm either not developing, weight that I'm either not developing, weight that I'm either not developing, not trusting, or trying to control it. not trusting, or trying to control it. not trusting, or trying to control it. And so those are the two big things. And And so those are the two big things. And And so those are the two big things. And then um I'm a person who um then um I'm a person who um then um I'm a person who um I'm not a huge believer in sbaticals if I'm not a huge believer in sbaticals if I'm not a huge believer in sbaticals if that makes sense. Like I don't my idea that makes sense. Like I don't my idea that makes sense. Like I don't my idea is not like I'm going to work until I'm is not like I'm going to work until I'm is not like I'm going to work until I'm dead and then take three months off. I dead and then take three months off. I dead and then take three months off. I build rhythms into my schedule. So for build rhythms into my schedule. So for build rhythms into my schedule. So for example, I golf twice a week. And my example, I golf twice a week. And my example, I golf twice a week. And my mindset it sometimes three. And my mindset it sometimes three. And my mindset it sometimes three. And my mindset is when I'm golfing, I'm at work mindset is when I'm golfing, I'm at work mindset is when I'm golfing, I'm at work because it's my job to do things that because it's my job to do things that because it's my job to do things that care for my soul. So if I go to the gym,

care for my soul. So if I go to the gym, care for my soul. So if I go to the gym, I'm at work. If I'm hanging out with I'm at work. If I'm hanging out with I'm at work. If I'm hanging out with somebody and having coffee, I'm at work. somebody and having coffee, I'm at work. somebody and having coffee, I'm at work. I don't I I put it all together. I I don't I I put it all together. I I don't I I put it all together. I believe being rested and healthy is part believe being rested and healthy is part believe being rested and healthy is part of my job. So I have really healthy of my job. So I have really healthy of my job. So I have really healthy rhythms. rhythms. rhythms. >> Um >> Um >> Um uh we work all all day on Sundays uh we work all all day on Sundays uh we work all all day on Sundays obviously because we have, you know, obviously because we have, you know, obviously because we have, you know, people, but we um Monday is um 10 to 3. people, but we um Monday is um 10 to 3. people, but we um Monday is um 10 to 3. Um, so you can drop your kids off, pick Um, so you can drop your kids off, pick Um, so you can drop your kids off, pick off your kids. Wednesdays 10:00 to 3 and off your kids. Wednesdays 10:00 to 3 and off your kids. Wednesdays 10:00 to 3 and then everything else is remote. So we then everything else is remote. So we then everything else is remote. So we only have a 3-day inoff work week. only have a 3-day inoff work week. only have a 3-day inoff work week. Everything else is remote. Um, we have Everything else is remote. Um, we have Everything else is remote. Um, we have unlimited time off in vacation. Um, we unlimited time off in vacation. Um, we unlimited time off in vacation. Um, we don't have two or three weeks. Um, we don't have two or three weeks. Um, we don't have two or three weeks. Um, we don't like if you wanted to take six don't like if you wanted to take six don't like if you wanted to take six weeks off, you could, you know, because weeks off, you could, you know, because weeks off, you could, you know, because we want people to be refreshed and the we want people to be refreshed and the we want people to be refreshed and the church is blowing up. So just more church is blowing up. So just more church is blowing up. So just more building healthy rhythms. I would say building healthy rhythms. I would say building healthy rhythms. I would say that's the third thing instead of having that's the third thing instead of having that's the third thing instead of having really unhealthy rhythms and then having really unhealthy rhythms and then having really unhealthy rhythms and then having to commit a season to health. to commit a season to health. to commit a season to health. >> We have a very similar approach on that >> We have a very similar approach on that >> We have a very similar approach on that one. Yeah, that's great. But I I hadn't one. Yeah, that's great. But I I hadn't one. Yeah, that's great. But I I hadn't really thought about my workouts and really thought about my workouts and really thought about my workouts and bike rides as work. I used to. I kind of bike rides as work. I used to. I kind of bike rides as work. I used to. I kind of forgot. I'm glad I'm glad you brought forgot. I'm glad I'm glad you brought forgot. I'm glad I'm glad you brought that up. I'm glad you brought that up.

that up. I'm glad you brought that up. that up. I'm glad you brought that up. >> Yeah, it's part of my job. >> Yeah, it's part of my job. >> Yeah, it's part of my job. >> Yeah. An unhealthy you is not going to >> Yeah. An unhealthy you is not going to >> Yeah. An unhealthy you is not going to help anybody. help anybody. help anybody. >> You know where I learned that from, >> You know where I learned that from, >> You know where I learned that from, Carrie? Like when I came leave pastor of Carrie? Like when I came leave pastor of Carrie? Like when I came leave pastor of the church, our board took out something the church, our board took out something the church, our board took out something called keyman insurance. called keyman insurance. called keyman insurance. >> Yes, I'm familiar with that. >> Yes, I'm familiar with that. >> Yes, I'm familiar with that. >> And I said, "What's keyman insurance?" >> And I said, "What's keyman insurance?" >> And I said, "What's keyman insurance?" It's if you die, It's if you die, It's if you die, um um the church um um the church um um the church >> they get money. >> they get money. >> they get money. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. The church gets like whatever. Um >> Yeah. The church gets like whatever. Um >> Yeah. The church gets like whatever. Um so, but it was it was not it was seven so, but it was it was not it was seven so, but it was it was not it was seven figures or more. And so that was the figures or more. And so that was the figures or more. And so that was the first time I thought, wow, that if I die, the church needs money. I that if I die, the church needs money. I It's probably part of my job not to die. It's probably part of my job not to die. It's probably part of my job not to die. [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like maybe we should put that in >> Like maybe we should put that in >> Like maybe we should put that in somebody's job description. Hey, don't somebody's job description. Hey, don't somebody's job description. Hey, don't die before you're supposed to. That's die before you're supposed to. That's die before you're supposed to. That's part of your job. But if your job is a part of your job. But if your job is a part of your job. But if your job is a 50hour work week and now your hobbies 50hour work week and now your hobbies 50hour work week and now your hobbies are to keep yourself alive are to keep yourself alive are to keep yourself alive or keep yourself healthy to some degree, or keep yourself healthy to some degree, or keep yourself healthy to some degree, then if I don't have time for my then if I don't have time for my then if I don't have time for my hobbies, then that's the first thing to hobbies, then that's the first thing to hobbies, then that's the first thing to go. So I just incorporate go. So I just incorporate go. So I just incorporate those things that keep me and I have my those things that keep me and I have my those things that keep me and I have my ups and downs. You know, right now I got ups and downs. You know, right now I got ups and downs. You know, right now I got to get back like I can the guy got to go to get back like I can the guy got to go to get back like I can the guy got to go to In-N-Out and have a hamburger when to In-N-Out and have a hamburger when to In-N-Out and have a hamburger when I'm in a So, right now I think my I'm in a So, right now I think my I'm in a So, right now I think my discipline is more needs to be towards

discipline is more needs to be towards discipline is more needs to be towards like making sure I'm eating. But anyway, like making sure I'm eating. But anyway, like making sure I'm eating. But anyway, so that's the way I look at it. So, um so that's the way I look at it. So, um so that's the way I look at it. So, um it's been helpful. it's been helpful. it's been helpful. >> Yeah. And you know that can always be >> Yeah. And you know that can always be >> Yeah. And you know that can always be abused, but I mean most of us you're abused, but I mean most of us you're abused, but I mean most of us you're either somebody said this, I think Tony either somebody said this, I think Tony either somebody said this, I think Tony Morgan, the late Tony Morgan said it in Morgan, the late Tony Morgan said it in Morgan, the late Tony Morgan said it in ministry people are either lazy or ministry people are either lazy or ministry people are either lazy or they're workaholics. There's no in they're workaholics. There's no in they're workaholics. There's no in between. And um I know I I tend toward between. And um I know I I tend toward between. And um I know I I tend toward the workaholic side. So the workaholic side. So the workaholic side. So >> it's good to know. >> it's good to know. >> it's good to know. >> I don't think I I would say that if >> I don't think I I would say that if >> I don't think I I would say that if someone's not abusing and taking someone's not abusing and taking someone's not abusing and taking advantage of you on your staff and team, advantage of you on your staff and team, advantage of you on your staff and team, your culture is not healthy. your culture is not healthy. your culture is not healthy. >> Okay. Say more about that. What do you >> Okay. Say more about that. What do you >> Okay. Say more about that. What do you mean? mean? mean? >> If everyone is abusing or taking then >> If everyone is abusing or taking then >> If everyone is abusing or taking then your culture is not healthy. So your culture is not healthy. So your culture is not healthy. So >> if if you if if if you have a a team >> if if you if if if you have a a team >> if if you if if if you have a a team full of lazy people, right? And this is full of lazy people, right? And this is full of lazy people, right? And this is obviously relative to the size of the obviously relative to the size of the obviously relative to the size of the team. If you have a team, a staff of two team. If you have a team, a staff of two team. If you have a team, a staff of two or three people, everybody's got to go or three people, everybody's got to go or three people, everybody's got to go hard. If you're a startup, everybody's hard. If you're a startup, everybody's hard. If you're a startup, everybody's got to go hard. But what I'm saying is got to go hard. But what I'm saying is got to go hard. But what I'm saying is when you get to the point where you have when you get to the point where you have when you get to the point where you have a, you know, 30, 40, 50 people on your a, you know, 30, 40, 50 people on your a, you know, 30, 40, 50 people on your staff, somebody in the room, like God staff, somebody in the room, like God staff, somebody in the room, like God has how many sons and daughters in the has how many sons and daughters in the has how many sons and daughters in the world, right? And and some of them are world, right? And and some of them are world, right? And and some of them are taking advantage of a cheaper type of taking advantage of a cheaper type of taking advantage of a cheaper type of grace where because of the grace of God, grace where because of the grace of God, grace where because of the grace of God, I'm not going to pursue God fully. And I'm not going to pursue God fully. And I'm not going to pursue God fully. And that's just kind of what happens when that's just kind of what happens when that's just kind of what happens when you preach love and the gospel. So I we you preach love and the gospel. So I we you preach love and the gospel. So I we don't have I I guess I would say there don't have I I guess I would say there don't have I I guess I would say there should never be anyone on your staff and should never be anyone on your staff and should never be anyone on your staff and team that you're not doing anything team that you're not doing anything team that you're not doing anything about. But I think it's healthy if about. But I think it's healthy if about. But I think it's healthy if there's someone on your staff and team there's someone on your staff and team there's someone on your staff and team that you have to have a conversation that you have to have a conversation that you have to have a conversation with about accountability because it's

with about accountability because it's with about accountability because it's enough there's enough freedom that enough there's enough freedom that enough there's enough freedom that someone could be dropping the ball if someone could be dropping the ball if someone could be dropping the ball if that that that >> Okay, that's fair. That's fair. >> Okay, that's fair. That's fair. >> Okay, that's fair. That's fair. >> Yeah, that's more what I mean by that. >> Yeah, that's more what I mean by that. >> Yeah, that's more what I mean by that. Not that like Not that like Not that like >> Yeah. And you do you do get to a certain >> Yeah. And you do you do get to a certain >> Yeah. And you do you do get to a certain level of staffing. I had a coach of mine level of staffing. I had a coach of mine level of staffing. I had a coach of mine point that out a long time ago. He goes, point that out a long time ago. He goes, point that out a long time ago. He goes, "It's easy to hide in large "It's easy to hide in large "It's easy to hide in large organizations. Much harder to hide in organizations. Much harder to hide in organizations. Much harder to hide in small organizations, but it's easy to small organizations, but it's easy to small organizations, but it's easy to hide when you get hide when you get hide when you get >> dozens of staff. That's easy." >> dozens of staff. That's easy." >> dozens of staff. That's easy." >> Um Julian, did I read this right? You >> Um Julian, did I read this right? You >> Um Julian, did I read this right? You went to therapy with Philip and Holly, went to therapy with Philip and Holly, went to therapy with Philip and Holly, your predecessors, when you were your predecessors, when you were your predecessors, when you were preparing for the transition. You went preparing for the transition. You went preparing for the transition. You went to therapy together. to therapy together. to therapy together. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Wow. Um can you tell us about that? >> Wow. Um can you tell us about that? >> Wow. Um can you tell us about that? I would when I tell you that Philip and I would when I tell you that Philip and I would when I tell you that Philip and Holly Wagner could have taught a master Holly Wagner could have taught a master Holly Wagner could have taught a master class on transitioning a church. class on transitioning a church. class on transitioning a church. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Um I don't know why, you know, one stat >> Um I don't know why, you know, one stat >> Um I don't know why, you know, one stat says that hundreds of thousands of says that hundreds of thousands of says that hundreds of thousands of churches will have to transition in the churches will have to transition in the churches will have to transition in the next 10 to 15 years. next 10 to 15 years. next 10 to 15 years. >> If you are watching this and you are in >> If you are watching this and you are in >> If you are watching this and you are in transition, you know, you got to call transition, you know, you got to call transition, you know, you got to call Philip and Olly Wagner the way that they Philip and Olly Wagner the way that they Philip and Olly Wagner the way that they did it. Never heard of anything like it.

did it. Never heard of anything like it. did it. Never heard of anything like it. Never seen it. Um, and one of the things Never seen it. Um, and one of the things Never seen it. Um, and one of the things that Philip did because he was in, you that Philip did because he was in, you that Philip did because he was in, you know, therapy is he invited me to his know, therapy is he invited me to his know, therapy is he invited me to his therapy sessions with him and Holly and therapy sessions with him and Holly and therapy sessions with him and Holly and we processed emotionally we processed emotionally we processed emotionally his transition and me coming into the his transition and me coming into the his transition and me coming into the new role in front of a trained new role in front of a trained new role in front of a trained professional. professional. professional. >> Wow. I didn't have the fear of saying >> Wow. I didn't have the fear of saying >> Wow. I didn't have the fear of saying things. I said things in that meeting things. I said things in that meeting things. I said things in that meeting that made him cry. He said things in that made him cry. He said things in that made him cry. He said things in that m meeting that helped me cry. you that m meeting that helped me cry. you that m meeting that helped me cry. you know, the maturity and the vulnerability know, the maturity and the vulnerability know, the maturity and the vulnerability of a leader to do that. I will never of a leader to do that. I will never of a leader to do that. I will never forget that. You know, it it prepared me forget that. You know, it it prepared me forget that. You know, it it prepared me emotionally to be able to take the role. emotionally to be able to take the role. emotionally to be able to take the role. It gave me specific insight on how him It gave me specific insight on how him It gave me specific insight on how him and Holly were feeling in that moment. and Holly were feeling in that moment. and Holly were feeling in that moment. It was it was powerful. Um, It was it was powerful. Um, It was it was powerful. Um, it was powerful. I'll never forget it. it was powerful. I'll never forget it. it was powerful. I'll never forget it. It was life-changing. I I I'm not even It was life-changing. I I I'm not even It was life-changing. I I I'm not even communicating the words of how impactful communicating the words of how impactful communicating the words of how impactful that was uh for me. What else did they that was uh for me. What else did they that was uh for me. What else did they do? Well, do? Well, do? Well, >> um they the right next to that, if not >> um they the right next to that, if not >> um they the right next to that, if not more, is I was really empowered before I more, is I was really empowered before I more, is I was really empowered before I took over the church. So, I was took over the church. So, I was took over the church. So, I was preaching more than than than than they preaching more than than than than they preaching more than than than than they were. I was already leading the staff were. I was already leading the staff were. I was already leading the staff meetings. I was already making a ton of meetings. I was already making a ton of meetings. I was already making a ton of decisions. Um from my understanding, a decisions. Um from my understanding, a decisions. Um from my understanding, a lot of people is we bring this guy in, lot of people is we bring this guy in, lot of people is we bring this guy in, he works for us. the day he becomes the he works for us. the day he becomes the he works for us. the day he becomes the lead pastor, right? The day he becomes

lead pastor, right? The day he becomes lead pastor, right? The day he becomes the lead pastor, that's when he starts the lead pastor, that's when he starts the lead pastor, that's when he starts preaching every Sunday. That's when he preaching every Sunday. That's when he preaching every Sunday. That's when he starts um and I was doing all those starts um and I was doing all those starts um and I was doing all those things. So I by the time they announced things. So I by the time they announced things. So I by the time they announced that I was the next lead pastor, the that I was the next lead pastor, the that I was the next lead pastor, the whole church basically went, "Oh, that whole church basically went, "Oh, that whole church basically went, "Oh, that makes sense." makes sense." makes sense." >> Yeah, exactly. It's like, "Oh, he's not >> Yeah, exactly. It's like, "Oh, he's not >> Yeah, exactly. It's like, "Oh, he's not already." Oh, okay. Yeah, already." Oh, okay. Yeah, already." Oh, okay. Yeah, >> that was a formality. >> that was a formality. >> that was a formality. >> It would have been obvious to the whole >> It would have been obvious to the whole >> It would have been obvious to the whole church I was the next pastor. What's church I was the next pastor. What's church I was the next pastor. What's your favorite part of the job and your your favorite part of the job and your your favorite part of the job and your least favorite part? least favorite part? least favorite part? >> This is a great question. My least >> This is a great question. My least >> This is a great question. My least favorite part of the job favorite part of the job favorite part of the job is is is um um um the is operations. the is operations. the is operations. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Like fundraising, staff management. you >> Like fundraising, staff management. you >> Like fundraising, staff management. you know, we um I I will say this. One of know, we um I I will say this. One of know, we um I I will say this. One of the things that I will I've always said the things that I will I've always said the things that I will I've always said about transition is that pastors think about transition is that pastors think about transition is that pastors think they're getting a church, but pastors they're getting a church, but pastors they're getting a church, but pastors are getting both a church and a are getting both a church and a are getting both a church and a nonprofit. And so I was really good at nonprofit. And so I was really good at nonprofit. And so I was really good at the church side and I had to grow at the the church side and I had to grow at the the church side and I had to grow at the nonprofit side, which is, you know, nonprofit side, which is, you know, nonprofit side, which is, you know, managing, you know, debt, paying off managing, you know, debt, paying off managing, you know, debt, paying off debt, raising money, buying buildings.

debt, raising money, buying buildings. debt, raising money, buying buildings. you know, um, this church, our insurance you know, um, this church, our insurance you know, um, this church, our insurance company told us is a $37 million company told us is a $37 million company told us is a $37 million property. It's a big cathedral on the property. It's a big cathedral on the property. It's a big cathedral on the corner of Wilshire in Normandy, and we corner of Wilshire in Normandy, and we corner of Wilshire in Normandy, and we have to figure out our we have a arm have to figure out our we have a arm have to figure out our we have a arm loan that matures in a couple years, so loan that matures in a couple years, so loan that matures in a couple years, so we have to make sure that we're ready we have to make sure that we're ready we have to make sure that we're ready financially to do that. So, that's my financially to do that. So, that's my financially to do that. So, that's my worst part. I just kind of love people. worst part. I just kind of love people. worst part. I just kind of love people. Um, my favorite part of the church is Um, my favorite part of the church is Um, my favorite part of the church is just the people. We, Christine and I, my just the people. We, Christine and I, my just the people. We, Christine and I, my wife, we never wanted to lead a church wife, we never wanted to lead a church wife, we never wanted to lead a church we actually were not a part of. Um, we we actually were not a part of. Um, we we actually were not a part of. Um, we function in our church not just as the function in our church not just as the function in our church not just as the lead pastors, but we're in community. We lead pastors, but we're in community. We lead pastors, but we're in community. We I still lead a connect group. My wife I still lead a connect group. My wife I still lead a connect group. My wife serves in the kids ministry. Um, um, you serves in the kids ministry. Um, um, you serves in the kids ministry. Um, um, you know, so there's just things like that. know, so there's just things like that. know, so there's just things like that. That's my favorite part of our church That's my favorite part of our church That's my favorite part of our church right now is how rich and awesome our right now is how rich and awesome our right now is how rich and awesome our community is. We have multi-generations community is. We have multi-generations community is. We have multi-generations there. Our kids have mentors in the there. Our kids have mentors in the there. Our kids have mentors in the church. You know, it's just a beautiful church. You know, it's just a beautiful church. You know, it's just a beautiful thing. Just the people of the church thing. Just the people of the church thing. Just the people of the church right now just I'm so grateful.

right now just I'm so grateful. right now just I'm so grateful. >> What's the most misunderstood thing >> What's the most misunderstood thing >> What's the most misunderstood thing about what you actually do as a pastor? about what you actually do as a pastor? about what you actually do as a pastor? >> The most misunder >> The most misunder >> The most misunder >> people don't understand, staff don't >> people don't understand, staff don't >> people don't understand, staff don't understand. understand. understand. Um, Um, Um, I think the the the most misunderstood I think the the the most misunderstood I think the the the most misunderstood thing right now, and I'm going to speak thing right now, and I'm going to speak thing right now, and I'm going to speak generally for me, because I know there's generally for me, because I know there's generally for me, because I know there's a lot of pastors, is that the truth of a lot of pastors, is that the truth of a lot of pastors, is that the truth of God's word has been politicized. God's word has been politicized. God's word has been politicized. >> So, if I say something that's true, >> So, if I say something that's true, >> So, if I say something that's true, like politics have like hijacked that. like politics have like hijacked that. like politics have like hijacked that. >> So, I think that's the most >> So, I think that's the most >> So, I think that's the most misunderstood thing on both sides. So, I misunderstood thing on both sides. So, I misunderstood thing on both sides. So, I can't bring up anything that politi can't bring up anything that politi can't bring up anything that politi that's in the Bible that politicians are that's in the Bible that politicians are that's in the Bible that politicians are certainly arguing about without people certainly arguing about without people certainly arguing about without people thinking I'm taking um certain sides. thinking I'm taking um certain sides. thinking I'm taking um certain sides. >> Everything's been um politicized, >> Everything's been um politicized, >> Everything's been um politicized, ideologicized, if that's a word, and ideologicized, if that's a word, and ideologicized, if that's a word, and weaponized, right? weaponized, right? weaponized, right? >> Yes, it's weaponized. So, um yeah, that >> Yes, it's weaponized. So, um yeah, that >> Yes, it's weaponized. So, um yeah, that would be um probably the most would be um probably the most would be um probably the most misunderstood thing.

misunderstood thing. misunderstood thing. >> How do you guard against that? I mean, >> How do you guard against that? I mean, >> How do you guard against that? I mean, you're you're part of a church in LA. you're you're part of a church in LA. you're you're part of a church in LA. You've already said you've got a pretty You've already said you've got a pretty You've already said you've got a pretty diverse congregation, at least, you diverse congregation, at least, you diverse congregation, at least, you know, ethnically diverse. I imagine it's know, ethnically diverse. I imagine it's know, ethnically diverse. I imagine it's somewhat politically diverse, too. How somewhat politically diverse, too. How somewhat politically diverse, too. How are you navigating around that? are you navigating around that? are you navigating around that? >> Well, how I navigate around it is like, >> Well, how I navigate around it is like, >> Well, how I navigate around it is like, um, I'm an equal opportunity rebuer. So um, I'm an equal opportunity rebuer. So um, I'm an equal opportunity rebuer. So what I mean by that in politics is um I what I mean by that in politics is um I what I mean by that in politics is um I haven't just said things that liberals haven't just said things that liberals haven't just said things that liberals need to do differently. I've said things need to do differently. I've said things need to do differently. I've said things conservatives need to do differently. So conservatives need to do differently. So conservatives need to do differently. So I think that if people hear you on not I think that if people hear you on not I think that if people hear you on not challenging just exclusively one side challenging just exclusively one side challenging just exclusively one side you know we love that it's that you know you know we love that it's that you know you know we love that it's that you know it's not perfect. So it's like whenever it's not perfect. So it's like whenever it's not perfect. So it's like whenever I say to my wife I mean I'm not perfect I say to my wife I mean I'm not perfect I say to my wife I mean I'm not perfect but you really I mean I wouldn't say but you really I mean I wouldn't say but you really I mean I wouldn't say that conservatives are perfect but those that conservatives are perfect but those that conservatives are perfect but those liberals. So, and anytime you're liberals. So, and anytime you're liberals. So, and anytime you're generalizing sin with um it's not generalizing sin with um it's not generalizing sin with um it's not perfect or I think for me like I was perfect or I think for me like I was perfect or I think for me like I was like you know transparently I whether no like you know transparently I whether no like you know transparently I whether no matter where your values are matter where your values are matter where your values are conservative I don't think we can call conservative I don't think we can call conservative I don't think we can call pride personality and say oh you know pride personality and say oh you know pride personality and say oh you know you might not like his personality. No, you might not like his personality. No, you might not like his personality. No, that's not his personality, man. That that's not his personality, man. That that's not his personality, man. That might be glaring pride that needs to be might be glaring pride that needs to be might be glaring pride that needs to be addressed, addressed, addressed, >> but also >> but also >> but also um hey, like I have a conviction that um hey, like I have a conviction that um hey, like I have a conviction that about the sanctity of life. So, watching about the sanctity of life. So, watching about the sanctity of life. So, watching you go back and forth between parties you go back and forth between parties you go back and forth between parties like going like, hey, like I get why you like going like, hey, like I get why you like going like, hey, like I get why you don't like this side or I get why you

don't like this side or I get why you don't like this side or I get why you don't like this side. I think that don't like this side. I think that don't like this side. I think that that's important and that's what not try that's important and that's what not try that's important and that's what not try to do. I'm not trying to be nuanced. to do. I'm not trying to be nuanced. to do. I'm not trying to be nuanced. That's what I believe. I believe that That's what I believe. I believe that That's what I believe. I believe that both um both political parties have both um both political parties have both um both political parties have areas of the Bible they're not areas of the Bible they're not areas of the Bible they're not following. And so if I'm open to having following. And so if I'm open to having following. And so if I'm open to having discussions around both of those sides, discussions around both of those sides, discussions around both of those sides, then now I earn trust that when I really then now I earn trust that when I really then now I earn trust that when I really get strong about this issue, they're get strong about this issue, they're get strong about this issue, they're like, "Oh, no. You're not coming from like, "Oh, no. You're not coming from like, "Oh, no. You're not coming from the a political party. You're actually the a political party. You're actually the a political party. You're actually talking about the Bible." One of the uh talking about the Bible." One of the uh talking about the Bible." One of the uh I'll give you a really practical I'll give you a really practical I'll give you a really practical example. um when all the ICE was in LA example. um when all the ICE was in LA example. um when all the ICE was in LA and LA was super fearful and LA was super fearful and LA was super fearful and um while I do believe that we and um while I do believe that we and um while I do believe that we shouldn't have completely open borders, shouldn't have completely open borders, shouldn't have completely open borders, I also think that there's a human way to I also think that there's a human way to I also think that there's a human way to go about dealing with this that I I go about dealing with this that I I go about dealing with this that I I didn't feel like was happening in LA. didn't feel like was happening in LA. didn't feel like was happening in LA. And I'm speaking to that. And so I'm And I'm speaking to that. And so I'm And I'm speaking to that. And so I'm talking about this and I'm talking about talking about this and I'm talking about talking about this and I'm talking about this and somebody in the middle of our this and somebody in the middle of our this and somebody in the middle of our service yells uh it was someone that service yells uh it was someone that service yells uh it was someone that didn't go to the church they were didn't go to the church they were didn't go to the church they were visiting yells at the top of their lungs visiting yells at the top of their lungs visiting yells at the top of their lungs Carrie Leviticus says that we should be Carrie Leviticus says that we should be Carrie Leviticus says that we should be kind and embrace the foreigner at the kind and embrace the foreigner at the kind and embrace the foreigner at the top of his lungs in the middle of the top of his lungs in the middle of the top of his lungs in the middle of the service.

service. service. And I stopped the service and I said sir And I stopped the service and I said sir And I stopped the service and I said sir you are right. Um, but Leviticus also you are right. Um, but Leviticus also you are right. Um, but Leviticus also says something pretty pretty strong says something pretty pretty strong says something pretty pretty strong about sexuality. Would you like to go about sexuality. Would you like to go about sexuality. Would you like to go ahead and yell that out as well? ahead and yell that out as well? ahead and yell that out as well? Dead silence. And I said, and this is Dead silence. And I said, and this is Dead silence. And I said, and this is what I'm trying to solve, church, what I'm trying to solve, church, what I'm trying to solve, church, selective theology, where we are selective theology, where we are selective theology, where we are passionate about one part of the Bible passionate about one part of the Bible passionate about one part of the Bible and disregard the other. And that's what and disregard the other. And that's what and disregard the other. And that's what I think most political conversations are I think most political conversations are I think most political conversations are about. And so if we can take the whole about. And so if we can take the whole about. And so if we can take the whole council of the word, we would discover council of the word, we would discover council of the word, we would discover that there are um things that each party that there are um things that each party that there are um things that each party is doing wrong. For me, I I feel like is doing wrong. For me, I I feel like is doing wrong. For me, I I feel like I'm a conservative I'm a conservative I'm a conservative that is not that is not that is not um so caught up in it that I can't um so caught up in it that I can't um so caught up in it that I can't challenge the way that conservatives do challenge the way that conservatives do challenge the way that conservatives do things. So that's the way I would. things. So that's the way I would. things. So that's the way I would. >> How are you doing that? Because I think >> How are you doing that? Because I think >> How are you doing that? Because I think you've hit attention and you know, one you've hit attention and you know, one you've hit attention and you know, one of the ways is to just avoid it. But I of the ways is to just avoid it. But I of the ways is to just avoid it. But I mean, but you're in LA and when ICE is mean, but you're in LA and when ICE is mean, but you're in LA and when ICE is rounding up people or the National Guard rounding up people or the National Guard rounding up people or the National Guard is deployed, I mean, that's happening in is deployed, I mean, that's happening in is deployed, I mean, that's happening in your city in real time. I'm sure it your city in real time. I'm sure it your city in real time. I'm sure it wasn't addressed in every pulpit. You wasn't addressed in every pulpit. You wasn't addressed in every pulpit. You went there. How do you do it in a way went there. How do you do it in a way went there. How do you do it in a way that doesn't blow the church apart? What that doesn't blow the church apart? What that doesn't blow the church apart? What are some, you know, either mistakes you are some, you know, either mistakes you are some, you know, either mistakes you made or like, oh yeah, if I approach it made or like, oh yeah, if I approach it made or like, oh yeah, if I approach it this way, it tends to go better? What this way, it tends to go better? What this way, it tends to go better? What are what are some notes for the rest of are what are some notes for the rest of are what are some notes for the rest of us?

us? us? Well, you know, I told you at the Well, you know, I told you at the Well, you know, I told you at the beginning of the um the the uh interview beginning of the um the the uh interview beginning of the um the the uh interview that, you know, I'm the type of person that, you know, I'm the type of person that, you know, I'm the type of person I'm going to say what I feel like the I'm going to say what I feel like the I'm going to say what I feel like the real answer is, and you know, people can real answer is, and you know, people can real answer is, and you know, people can do it what they must. do it what they must. do it what they must. >> But there was a um there was a real >> But there was a um there was a real >> But there was a um there was a real strong effort in media and culture strong effort in media and culture strong effort in media and culture to make specifically white Christian men to make specifically white Christian men to make specifically white Christian men afraid to preach the Bible. M afraid to preach the Bible. M afraid to preach the Bible. M >> so what I mean by that is that like if I >> so what I mean by that is that like if I >> so what I mean by that is that like if I say something and this is going to sound say something and this is going to sound say something and this is going to sound weird but one of my biggest advantages weird but one of my biggest advantages weird but one of my biggest advantages is that I'm black is that I'm black is that I'm black so that if I say something that is a so that if I say something that is a so that if I say something that is a biblical verse that they may have heard biblical verse that they may have heard biblical verse that they may have heard from a white southern pastor they can't from a white southern pastor they can't from a white southern pastor they can't tell me that I am some conservative tell me that I am some conservative tell me that I am some conservative you know white privileged person that you know white privileged person that you know white privileged person that doesn't understand the plight of the the doesn't understand the plight of the the doesn't understand the plight of the the brown and black community and so that's brown and black community and so that's brown and black community and so that's honestly I think I can say things that honestly I think I can say things that honestly I think I can say things that other people feel like they can't um say other people feel like they can't um say other people feel like they can't um say on the other end um I can say things on the other end um I can say things on the other end um I can say things that you know u that you know u that you know u you went to that thing in 2020 where you went to that thing in 2020 where you went to that thing in 2020 where only people of color could say something only people of color could say something only people of color could say something >> um I I do feel like that was a little >> um I I do feel like that was a little >> um I I do feel like that was a little bit part of that and so really it is um bit part of that and so really it is um bit part of that and so really it is um I actually have I actually have I actually have friends from both sides.

friends from both sides. friends from both sides. >> So, I have I have people that I deeply >> So, I have I have people that I deeply >> So, I have I have people that I deeply love that are really liberal and I don't love that are really liberal and I don't love that are really liberal and I don't agree with a lot of stuff they say. I agree with a lot of stuff they say. I agree with a lot of stuff they say. I have people who are deeply conservative have people who are deeply conservative have people who are deeply conservative and I don't agree with a lot of stuff and I don't agree with a lot of stuff and I don't agree with a lot of stuff that they say. If you don't if you're that they say. If you don't if you're that they say. If you don't if you're not friends with people, not friends with people, not friends with people, the Holy Spirit helps you be friends the Holy Spirit helps you be friends the Holy Spirit helps you be friends with people that without the Holy Spirit with people that without the Holy Spirit with people that without the Holy Spirit you would never be friends with. I have you would never be friends with. I have you would never be friends with. I have friends like that, too. I'm just like, friends like that, too. I'm just like, friends like that, too. I'm just like, "Hey, keep my mouth shut." I told my "Hey, keep my mouth shut." I told my "Hey, keep my mouth shut." I told my friends, "Hey, I think we'd hate each friends, "Hey, I think we'd hate each friends, "Hey, I think we'd hate each other other other >> if it wasn't for um >> if it wasn't for um >> if it wasn't for um you know you know you know um if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit. I um if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit. I um if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit. I think we'd hate each other." There was a think we'd hate each other." There was a think we'd hate each other." There was a one pastor friend of mine. one pastor friend of mine. one pastor friend of mine. Um he's a great leader. Has a church in Um he's a great leader. Has a church in Um he's a great leader. Has a church in Arizona. Unbelievable. And we actually Arizona. Unbelievable. And we actually Arizona. Unbelievable. And we actually got in an argument on about some stuff. got in an argument on about some stuff. got in an argument on about some stuff. I think I was more being nuanced about I think I was more being nuanced about I think I was more being nuanced about something that was clear biblically. and something that was clear biblically. and something that was clear biblically. and he he called me out on Instagram about he he called me out on Instagram about he he called me out on Instagram about it and um I was so mad he was trying to it and um I was so mad he was trying to it and um I was so mad he was trying to call me out and then God told me he was call me out and then God told me he was call me out and then God told me he was right. We ended up having a conversation right. We ended up having a conversation right. We ended up having a conversation and I ended up preaching in his church and I ended up preaching in his church and I ended up preaching in his church and we're friends now.

and we're friends now. and we're friends now. >> So I think it's more um what helps me is >> So I think it's more um what helps me is >> So I think it's more um what helps me is I listen to people from both sides and I listen to people from both sides and I listen to people from both sides and I'm and I'm compassionate I'm and I'm compassionate I'm and I'm compassionate but I've already taken a stance. We will but I've already taken a stance. We will but I've already taken a stance. We will not compromise ourselves theologically not compromise ourselves theologically not compromise ourselves theologically in the effort to show empathy. And I do in the effort to show empathy. And I do in the effort to show empathy. And I do think that being a person of color in LA think that being a person of color in LA think that being a person of color in LA helps helps helps that because people can accuse me of not that because people can accuse me of not that because people can accuse me of not having context when I speak into racial having context when I speak into racial having context when I speak into racial tension like that. So, um I think that's tension like that. So, um I think that's tension like that. So, um I think that's helpful. Well, I think you make a really helpful. Well, I think you make a really helpful. Well, I think you make a really interesting point that the culture has interesting point that the culture has interesting point that the culture has done certain things that make it, you done certain things that make it, you done certain things that make it, you know, white Christian preachers afraid. know, white Christian preachers afraid. know, white Christian preachers afraid. Now, I would say, at least based on what Now, I would say, at least based on what Now, I would say, at least based on what I see in the church, not every white I see in the church, not every white I see in the church, not every white Christian male preacher is afraid. Some Christian male preacher is afraid. Some Christian male preacher is afraid. Some of them are on the whole anti-woke thing of them are on the whole anti-woke thing of them are on the whole anti-woke thing and becoming bold and, you know, their and becoming bold and, you know, their and becoming bold and, you know, their churches are growing like crazy, etc., churches are growing like crazy, etc., churches are growing like crazy, etc., and they're enjoying it. They're and they're enjoying it. They're and they're enjoying it. They're enjoying this cultural moment. But I enjoying this cultural moment. But I enjoying this cultural moment. But I think you rais a really good point that think you rais a really good point that think you rais a really good point that there are a lot of white Christian men there are a lot of white Christian men there are a lot of white Christian men who are afraid because of what they say who are afraid because of what they say who are afraid because of what they say being taken the wrong way or alienating being taken the wrong way or alienating being taken the wrong way or alienating people etc. Uh two questions for you people etc. Uh two questions for you people etc. Uh two questions for you Julian. How do you think that happened Julian. How do you think that happened Julian. How do you think that happened and then what's your advice?

and then what's your advice? and then what's your advice? >> I think that happened when >> I think that happened when >> I think that happened when the church got involved in separating the church got involved in separating the church got involved in separating people racially when we were supposed to people racially when we were supposed to people racially when we were supposed to be one group. Uh, you know, for me, um, be one group. Uh, you know, for me, um, be one group. Uh, you know, for me, um, in 2020, I went I went on a really deep in 2020, I went I went on a really deep in 2020, I went I went on a really deep journey. I was angry, man. I was kind of journey. I was angry, man. I was kind of journey. I was angry, man. I was kind of mad at the church. I was mad at the church. I was mad at the church. I was >> in 2020. >> in 2020. >> in 2020. >> Yeah, man. I I I felt like we were >> Yeah, man. I I I felt like we were >> Yeah, man. I I I felt like we were handling it wrong. Um, so handling it wrong. Um, so handling it wrong. Um, so >> it just >> it just >> it just I felt like I was just hurt by the racial tension I was just hurt by the racial tension being somebody black in America and being somebody black in America and being somebody black in America and people saying that all of it was like people saying that all of it was like people saying that all of it was like not real. that not real. that not real. that >> you know it it felt that people were >> you know it it felt that people were >> you know it it felt that people were saying that you know there were no saying that you know there were no saying that you know there were no challenges for black people in America challenges for black people in America challenges for black people in America that we just needed to work harder and I that we just needed to work harder and I that we just needed to work harder and I had experienced some of those had experienced some of those had experienced some of those challenges. I've been golfing recently challenges. I've been golfing recently challenges. I've been golfing recently and at a really nice golf course and a and at a really nice golf course and a and at a really nice golf course and a golf patron handed me their bag and golf patron handed me their bag and golf patron handed me their bag and said, "Could you put this up for me?"

said, "Could you put this up for me?" said, "Could you put this up for me?" That's happened to me like and so I I That's happened to me like and so I I That's happened to me like and so I I think I was just like really upset think I was just like really upset think I was just like really upset upset. I was trying to figure out what upset. I was trying to figure out what upset. I was trying to figure out what did I need to do for the black community did I need to do for the black community did I need to do for the black community because I was just upset and I was because I was just upset and I was because I was just upset and I was frustrated. It got to the point where it frustrated. It got to the point where it frustrated. It got to the point where it got unhealthy. I was going to events and got unhealthy. I was going to events and got unhealthy. I was going to events and counting black people and God was like, counting black people and God was like, counting black people and God was like, "What are you doing?" like this. These "What are you doing?" like this. These "What are you doing?" like this. These are your brothers and sisters in Christ are your brothers and sisters in Christ are your brothers and sisters in Christ like and I was reminded of this and I like and I was reminded of this and I like and I was reminded of this and I watched this speech and I remember I'm watched this speech and I remember I'm watched this speech and I remember I'm weeping in my living room watching weeping in my living room watching weeping in my living room watching Martin Luther's King's speech and the Martin Luther's King's speech and the Martin Luther's King's speech and the moment where he said that his heart was moment where he said that his heart was moment where he said that his heart was that the son of slave owners and the son that the son of slave owners and the son that the son of slave owners and the son of slaves would sit together at the of slaves would sit together at the of slaves would sit together at the table of brotherhood. table of brotherhood. table of brotherhood. Um and Um and Um and his last public words were mine eyes his last public words were mine eyes his last public words were mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the have seen the glory of the coming of the have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord. And so Martin Luther King's Lord. And so Martin Luther King's Lord. And so Martin Luther King's attempt to bring about equality was not attempt to bring about equality was not attempt to bring about equality was not because inequality angered him. His because inequality angered him. His because inequality angered him. His attempt to bring about equality is attempt to bring about equality is attempt to bring about equality is because his eyes had seen the coming of because his eyes had seen the coming of because his eyes had seen the coming of the glory of the Lord and he was trying the glory of the Lord and he was trying the glory of the Lord and he was trying to make God's people look the way that to make God's people look the way that to make God's people look the way that God wanted to look at it. So for me that God wanted to look at it. So for me that God wanted to look at it. So for me that just changed my whole perspective and I just changed my whole perspective and I just changed my whole perspective and I realized I was a like that that yes realized I was a like that that yes realized I was a like that that yes there's there's there's race is a real thing race is a real thing race is a real thing >> but um I've been blessed you know um I'm >> but um I've been blessed you know um I'm >> but um I've been blessed you know um I'm I was the only um black person in that I I was the only um black person in that I I was the only um black person in that I could find in LA who a white pastor could find in LA who a white pastor could find in LA who a white pastor transition their church to him and the transition their church to him and the transition their church to him and the Lord was blessing me and he wanted me to

Lord was blessing me and he wanted me to Lord was blessing me and he wanted me to be a bridge to bring sides of a be a bridge to bring sides of a be a bridge to bring sides of a perspective together in unity. and by perspective together in unity. and by perspective together in unity. and by the grace and glory of the Lord. And I'd the grace and glory of the Lord. And I'd the grace and glory of the Lord. And I'd had to let some things go and humble had to let some things go and humble had to let some things go and humble myself in order to be able to do that. myself in order to be able to do that. myself in order to be able to do that. And I think that we in our society, And I think that we in our society, And I think that we in our society, um, part of the way America's wired is um, part of the way America's wired is um, part of the way America's wired is we are we are always trying to silence we are we are always trying to silence we are we are always trying to silence somebody else's voice to make somebody somebody else's voice to make somebody somebody else's voice to make somebody else's voice more important or louder. M else's voice more important or louder. M else's voice more important or louder. M >> and so I I think there's some ways where >> and so I I think there's some ways where >> and so I I think there's some ways where when women didn't have a voice, it's when women didn't have a voice, it's when women didn't have a voice, it's like maybe the plan is to silence men so like maybe the plan is to silence men so like maybe the plan is to silence men so that the women can have a voice or when that the women can have a voice or when that the women can have a voice or when men don't have a voice, we try to men don't have a voice, we try to men don't have a voice, we try to silence women. We're always trying to silence women. We're always trying to silence women. We're always trying to put somebody on the bottom rung on their put somebody on the bottom rung on their put somebody on the bottom rung on their voice matters. And I do think that the voice matters. And I do think that the voice matters. And I do think that the the the Christian male um there's a the the Christian male um there's a the the Christian male um there's a there was a an attempt to silence that there was a an attempt to silence that there was a an attempt to silence that voice. I do think that and I do think voice. I do think that and I do think voice. I do think that and I do think pastors felt the weight of emptying pastors felt the weight of emptying pastors felt the weight of emptying their churches if they just say their churches if they just say their churches if they just say something that's actually in scripture.

something that's actually in scripture. something that's actually in scripture. And so, um I I do think that I I do And so, um I I do think that I I do And so, um I I do think that I I do think that you there's certain things think that you there's certain things think that you there's certain things you can't say. I I've been asked to go you can't say. I I've been asked to go you can't say. I I've been asked to go to public events um pray for the city to public events um pray for the city to public events um pray for the city and they say, "We're good with you being and they say, "We're good with you being and they say, "We're good with you being here. Just when you pray, can you not here. Just when you pray, can you not here. Just when you pray, can you not say Jesus? We don't want to offend say Jesus? We don't want to offend say Jesus? We don't want to offend anybody." anybody." anybody." I'm like, I thought we were all here to I'm like, I thought we were all here to I'm like, I thought we were all here to be ourselves and be our authentic be ourselves and be our authentic be ourselves and be our authentic selves. So, I I would say that that's selves. So, I I would say that that's selves. So, I I would say that that's what I've experienced. Um, but I what I've experienced. Um, but I what I've experienced. Um, but I experienced less of it because you can't experienced less of it because you can't experienced less of it because you can't call me racist. You can't call me a call me racist. You can't call me a call me racist. You can't call me a white supremacist. Um, you know, you can white supremacist. Um, you know, you can white supremacist. Um, you know, you can be mad, but you can't label me in the be mad, but you can't label me in the be mad, but you can't label me in the way that you could label other people. way that you could label other people. way that you could label other people. So, um, everybody has a label in their So, um, everybody has a label in their So, um, everybody has a label in their pocket that they're ready to slap on pocket that they're ready to slap on pocket that they're ready to slap on somebody's chest if they don't like what somebody's chest if they don't like what somebody's chest if they don't like what they have to say. And I think that's one they have to say. And I think that's one they have to say. And I think that's one of the greatest cultural um crimes of of the greatest cultural um crimes of of the greatest cultural um crimes of our day. Um racism is being replaced our day. Um racism is being replaced our day. Um racism is being replaced what what I would call thoughtism. I what what I would call thoughtism. I what what I would call thoughtism. I don't have permission to hate you for don't have permission to hate you for don't have permission to hate you for the color of your skin, but I do have the color of your skin, but I do have the color of your skin, but I do have permission to hate you for the way that permission to hate you for the way that permission to hate you for the way that you think. you think. you think. >> Um and we are replacing racism with >> Um and we are replacing racism with >> Um and we are replacing racism with thoughtism. And we are validating hatred thoughtism. And we are validating hatred thoughtism. And we are validating hatred towards anyone who views something towards anyone who views something towards anyone who views something differently than how we view it. And I differently than how we view it. And I differently than how we view it. And I think that coined phrase thoughtism will think that coined phrase thoughtism will think that coined phrase thoughtism will be the new racism inside the next 20 be the new racism inside the next 20 be the new racism inside the next 20 years in America if we don't do anything years in America if we don't do anything years in America if we don't do anything about it.

about it. about it. >> I hadn't heard that, but it completely >> I hadn't heard that, but it completely >> I hadn't heard that, but it completely resonates. So, you know, we all have our resonates. So, you know, we all have our resonates. So, you know, we all have our own critics and our own challenges, and own critics and our own challenges, and own critics and our own challenges, and it seems Julian like you've done a a it seems Julian like you've done a a it seems Julian like you've done a a decent job in being able to speak what decent job in being able to speak what decent job in being able to speak what you want to say and handle the critic. you want to say and handle the critic. you want to say and handle the critic. So for the preachers who are in the So for the preachers who are in the So for the preachers who are in the corner still a little bit afraid like gh corner still a little bit afraid like gh corner still a little bit afraid like gh I don't know whether I can say that what I don't know whether I can say that what I don't know whether I can say that what advice do you have for them either in advice do you have for them either in advice do you have for them either in the framing of what they say or how they the framing of what they say or how they the framing of what they say or how they handle the critics cuz fear is a handle the critics cuz fear is a handle the critics cuz fear is a silencer. silencer. silencer. M M M so let's say for example you really had so let's say for example you really had so let's say for example you really had a conviction about abortion right um and a conviction about abortion right um and a conviction about abortion right um and you know you're speaking to a you know you're speaking to a you know you're speaking to a congregation of congregation of congregation of liberals liberals liberals >> the last thing you would want to do in >> the last thing you would want to do in >> the last thing you would want to do in my opinion is say Roie Wade was from God my opinion is say Roie Wade was from God my opinion is say Roie Wade was from God when you're talking about a room full of when you're talking about a room full of when you're talking about a room full of liberals and even if you think that liberals and even if you think that liberals and even if you think that there's got to be a better approach than there's got to be a better approach than there's got to be a better approach than that because you just politicized that because you just politicized that because you just politicized something that's in your heart something that's in your heart something that's in your heart theological whether you agree with this theological whether you agree with this theological whether you agree with this or not. You've the you've made you've or not. You've the you've made you've or not. You've the you've made you've made a political statement about a made a political statement about a made a political statement about a theological principle that you have in theological principle that you have in theological principle that you have in your heart. when I felt like I wanted to your heart. when I felt like I wanted to your heart. when I felt like I wanted to uh address this, uh address this, uh address this, um, one of the things that I said was in um, one of the things that I said was in um, one of the things that I said was in 2016, 2016, 2016, more children of color were aborted in more children of color were aborted in more children of color were aborted in New York City than born New York City than born New York City than born and you felt the breath leave people's

and you felt the breath leave people's and you felt the breath leave people's bodies in the room. I just want you to bodies in the room. I just want you to bodies in the room. I just want you to fathom that more black children were fathom that more black children were fathom that more black children were were aborted in 2016 in New York than were aborted in 2016 in New York than were aborted in 2016 in New York than born born born And I said, And I said, And I said, "This is not political, but I want you "This is not political, but I want you "This is not political, but I want you to pull out your phone right now, and I to pull out your phone right now, and I to pull out your phone right now, and I want you to try to look to see if want you to try to look to see if want you to try to look to see if there's a Planned Parenthood in Beverly there's a Planned Parenthood in Beverly there's a Planned Parenthood in Beverly Hills. Try to find one in the Palisades. Hills. Try to find one in the Palisades. Hills. Try to find one in the Palisades. Try to find one in Bair. Try to find one Try to find one in Bair. Try to find one Try to find one in Bair. Try to find one in Studio City. Try to find one where in Studio City. Try to find one where in Studio City. Try to find one where there is a prominent there is a prominent there is a prominent rich people." Now I want you to go to rich people." Now I want you to go to rich people." Now I want you to go to every neighborhood that has people of every neighborhood that has people of every neighborhood that has people of color in it. And now I want you to try color in it. And now I want you to try color in it. And now I want you to try to find one. And everyone could. to find one. And everyone could. to find one. And everyone could. >> Wow. So you can't find them in the rich, >> Wow. So you can't find them in the rich, >> Wow. So you can't find them in the rich, affluent white neighborhoods. You find affluent white neighborhoods. You find affluent white neighborhoods. You find them in the more impoverished them in the more impoverished them in the more impoverished neighborhoods. neighborhoods. neighborhoods. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Wow. I did not a black woman, you're >> Wow. I did not a black woman, you're >> Wow. I did not a black woman, you're five times more likely to have an five times more likely to have an five times more likely to have an abortion than a white woman. abortion than a white woman. abortion than a white woman. What if What if What if what if what if what if what if what if what if children are really the blessing of the children are really the blessing of the children are really the blessing of the Lord that God says they are?

Lord that God says they are? Lord that God says they are? One of the reasons why um people used to One of the reasons why um people used to One of the reasons why um people used to sacrifice children in the Bible is that sacrifice children in the Bible is that sacrifice children in the Bible is that they believed children were a threat to they believed children were a threat to they believed children were a threat to their prosperity their prosperity their prosperity >> and they had to sacrifice their children >> and they had to sacrifice their children >> and they had to sacrifice their children to these gods that then would release to these gods that then would release to these gods that then would release prosperity. prosperity. prosperity. So, I'm not here to talk about what we So, I'm not here to talk about what we So, I'm not here to talk about what we force women to do or not force women to force women to do or not force women to force women to do or not force women to do. That's not what this sermon is do. That's not what this sermon is do. That's not what this sermon is about. This sermon is about this church about. This sermon is about this church about. This sermon is about this church will always serve will always serve will always serve the mother, the single mother who's the mother, the single mother who's the mother, the single mother who's pregnant. This church will always serve pregnant. This church will always serve pregnant. This church will always serve children. We will value children in this children. We will value children in this children. We will value children in this church. church. church. >> And then I would I brought the kids >> And then I would I brought the kids >> And then I would I brought the kids ministry. They started bringing babies ministry. They started bringing babies ministry. They started bringing babies out of the kids ministry one by one and out of the kids ministry one by one and out of the kids ministry one by one and we prayed for every single one of them. we prayed for every single one of them. we prayed for every single one of them. >> And so if you weren't ready to hear >> And so if you weren't ready to hear >> And so if you weren't ready to hear about Roie Wade, you were ready to hear about Roie Wade, you were ready to hear about Roie Wade, you were ready to hear about that. about that. about that. >> And that's such a different reframing >> And that's such a different reframing >> And that's such a different reframing than the weaponized debate that's raging than the weaponized debate that's raging than the weaponized debate that's raging in the public eye right now. in the public eye right now. in the public eye right now. >> Yeah. Because we're not leading people >> Yeah. Because we're not leading people >> Yeah. Because we're not leading people to the truth. The the Bible says the to the truth. The the Bible says the to the truth. The the Bible says the Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth.

Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth. Holy Spirit will lead you to the truth. The church is being truth tellers, not The church is being truth tellers, not The church is being truth tellers, not truth leaders. truth leaders. truth leaders. >> So, I'm not asking anyone to be bold >> So, I'm not asking anyone to be bold >> So, I'm not asking anyone to be bold about telling the truth. Come up with a about telling the truth. Come up with a about telling the truth. Come up with a leadership plan to lead someone to the leadership plan to lead someone to the leadership plan to lead someone to the truth. So, if you know your church is truth. So, if you know your church is truth. So, if you know your church is liberal and you know you're in a liberal liberal and you know you're in a liberal liberal and you know you're in a liberal city, come up with a plan. I've been city, come up with a plan. I've been city, come up with a plan. I've been talking about children for 3 years. I've talking about children for 3 years. I've talking about children for 3 years. I've been talking about four years. I've been been talking about four years. I've been been talking about four years. I've been talking about this. We've been serving talking about this. We've been serving talking about this. We've been serving children, serving single moms. So, now children, serving single moms. So, now children, serving single moms. So, now I'm building a case that I believe these I'm building a case that I believe these I'm building a case that I believe these children matter to God. children matter to God. children matter to God. I will say phrases like, "I've never met I will say phrases like, "I've never met I will say phrases like, "I've never met a child that I wish wasn't here." a child that I wish wasn't here." a child that I wish wasn't here." >> Like, that's just who I am. I'm not >> Like, that's just who I am. I'm not >> Like, that's just who I am. I'm not asking you to uh uh uh agree with that. asking you to uh uh uh agree with that. asking you to uh uh uh agree with that. Now, now here's the other thing I will Now, now here's the other thing I will Now, now here's the other thing I will say. In these hyper structured services say. In these hyper structured services say. In these hyper structured services that are designed to pump people in and that are designed to pump people in and that are designed to pump people in and out, whenever Moses was given a law, he out, whenever Moses was given a law, he out, whenever Moses was given a law, he was given a law in the atmosphere of was given a law in the atmosphere of was given a law in the atmosphere of glory. glory. glory. So we wanted to make so when Moses got So we wanted to make so when Moses got So we wanted to make so when Moses got the ten commandments the mountain was on the ten commandments the mountain was on the ten commandments the mountain was on fire with the glory of the Lord. So we fire with the glory of the Lord. So we fire with the glory of the Lord. So we want to pursue a presence in our church want to pursue a presence in our church want to pursue a presence in our church that is so powerful tangible and that is so powerful tangible and that is so powerful tangible and impactful Carrie that it creates an impactful Carrie that it creates an impactful Carrie that it creates an atmosphere that I can tell the truth in.

atmosphere that I can tell the truth in. atmosphere that I can tell the truth in. I don't want to tell the truth on bold I don't want to tell the truth on bold I don't want to tell the truth on bold truths on Instagram and bold truths on truths on Instagram and bold truths on truths on Instagram and bold truths on podcast and bold truth. I get that. podcast and bold truth. I get that. podcast and bold truth. I get that. There's a place for that. But for our There's a place for that. But for our There's a place for that. But for our church when everyone is like re you know church when everyone is like re you know church when everyone is like re you know maybe slower uh the cities slower to maybe slower uh the cities slower to maybe slower uh the cities slower to have some of these biblical values I have some of these biblical values I have some of these biblical values I want to create atmospheres that are easy want to create atmospheres that are easy want to create atmospheres that are easy to tell the truth in. And I know that an to tell the truth in. And I know that an to tell the truth in. And I know that an atmosphere of compassion, empathy and atmosphere of compassion, empathy and atmosphere of compassion, empathy and God's presence can allow me to say God's presence can allow me to say God's presence can allow me to say something like that and people can something like that and people can something like that and people can receive it because we've kind of built receive it because we've kind of built receive it because we've kind of built the case over the last couple years. So the case over the last couple years. So the case over the last couple years. So for me it was like one of these days I'm for me it was like one of these days I'm for me it was like one of these days I'm going to bring up what I think about going to bring up what I think about going to bring up what I think about abortion. Now, for the next 18 months, abortion. Now, for the next 18 months, abortion. Now, for the next 18 months, I'm going to build the case and lead the I'm going to build the case and lead the I'm going to build the case and lead the church to what I'm going to tell them in church to what I'm going to tell them in church to what I'm going to tell them in 18 months. 18 months. 18 months. >> Depending on where they're at, >> Depending on where they're at, >> Depending on where they're at, >> what is one thing God's teaching you >> what is one thing God's teaching you >> what is one thing God's teaching you right now that you wish you would have right now that you wish you would have right now that you wish you would have learned 10 years ago? learned 10 years ago? learned 10 years ago? >> I think 10 years ago, I believed in a >> I think 10 years ago, I believed in a >> I think 10 years ago, I believed in a God that saves but did not satisfy. God that saves but did not satisfy. God that saves but did not satisfy. So, I was saved from my sins, but I So, I was saved from my sins, but I So, I was saved from my sins, but I needed to find satisfaction in life needed to find satisfaction in life needed to find satisfaction in life through the things that I achieved.

through the things that I achieved. through the things that I achieved. through the increase in the growth of through the increase in the growth of through the increase in the growth of our church, through the increase and our church, through the increase and our church, through the increase and growth of the finances and influence. growth of the finances and influence. growth of the finances and influence. Um, and so now, um, I turned 48 this Um, and so now, um, I turned 48 this Um, and so now, um, I turned 48 this year. I'm really on this journey to year. I'm really on this journey to year. I'm really on this journey to understand that Jesus both saves and understand that Jesus both saves and understand that Jesus both saves and satisfies. And that there's nothing that satisfies. And that there's nothing that satisfies. And that there's nothing that I could accomplish, do, or achieve that I could accomplish, do, or achieve that I could accomplish, do, or achieve that could give me more satisfaction than could give me more satisfaction than could give me more satisfaction than Christ. And sounds hypers spiritual, but Christ. And sounds hypers spiritual, but Christ. And sounds hypers spiritual, but it's just where I'm at right now. I I it's just where I'm at right now. I I it's just where I'm at right now. I I don't Everything that I've achieved has don't Everything that I've achieved has don't Everything that I've achieved has failed me when I rely on it to make me failed me when I rely on it to make me failed me when I rely on it to make me feel good about who I am. It's feel good about who I am. It's feel good about who I am. It's >> true. >> true. >> true. >> Um all of it's all it's all it's all >> Um all of it's all it's all it's all >> Um all of it's all it's all it's all failed me. Um failed me. Um failed me. Um >> so yeah, I think that's the big thing I >> so yeah, I think that's the big thing I >> so yeah, I think that's the big thing I I think I knew Jesus saves, but Jesus I think I knew Jesus saves, but Jesus I think I knew Jesus saves, but Jesus also satisfies. also satisfies. also satisfies. >> Well, sign of a good conversation. I >> Well, sign of a good conversation. I >> Well, sign of a good conversation. I didn't get to most of my questions. So, didn't get to most of my questions. So, didn't get to most of my questions. So, well done, Julian. This has been a real well done, Julian. This has been a real well done, Julian. This has been a real joy. Is there anything we didn't touch joy. Is there anything we didn't touch joy. Is there anything we didn't touch on that we need to touch on before we on that we need to touch on before we on that we need to touch on before we wrap up? wrap up? wrap up? >> You know, I think um >> You know, I think um >> You know, I think um I think I will say this. I think that I think I will say this. I think that I think I will say this. I think that and I don't know if you guys will keep and I don't know if you guys will keep and I don't know if you guys will keep this, but I will say Carrie that um this, but I will say Carrie that um this, but I will say Carrie that um um you were um always a big voice to the um you were um always a big voice to the um you were um always a big voice to the um world um from your from leadership um world um from your from leadership um world um from your from leadership world, church world. And so in 2020, I world, church world. And so in 2020, I world, church world. And so in 2020, I got invited to be a part of of a cohort.

got invited to be a part of of a cohort. got invited to be a part of of a cohort. I believe it's towards the end of 2020 I believe it's towards the end of 2020 I believe it's towards the end of 2020 that was in your backyard talking life that was in your backyard talking life that was in your backyard talking life um leadership and I was in a bad spot um leadership and I was in a bad spot um leadership and I was in a bad spot when that happened. Um, and you know, when that happened. Um, and you know, when that happened. Um, and you know, those conversations and the hours you those conversations and the hours you those conversations and the hours you you guys, you know, spent, you know, you guys, you know, spent, you know, you guys, you know, spent, you know, speaking into to us really help shaped speaking into to us really help shaped speaking into to us really help shaped and really helped me explore some of the and really helped me explore some of the and really helped me explore some of the things that I've got the chance to things that I've got the chance to things that I've got the chance to share. Um, share. Um, share. Um, now and I would just say that, you know, now and I would just say that, you know, now and I would just say that, you know, if you've you're watching this, you if you've you're watching this, you if you've you're watching this, you know, podcast and, you know, I said know, podcast and, you know, I said know, podcast and, you know, I said something that you don't agree with or I something that you don't agree with or I something that you don't agree with or I said something um that you be vehemently said something um that you be vehemently said something um that you be vehemently don't agree with. Don't allow that to don't agree with. Don't allow that to don't agree with. Don't allow that to give you permission to to hate me. I give you permission to to hate me. I give you permission to to hate me. I don't mind growing in front of people. don't mind growing in front of people. don't mind growing in front of people. Growing in front of people means that Growing in front of people means that Growing in front of people means that I'm so unafraid of growth that I can say I'm so unafraid of growth that I can say I'm so unafraid of growth that I can say something today that I wouldn't say two something today that I wouldn't say two something today that I wouldn't say two years from now. So, um, you know, that's years from now. So, um, you know, that's years from now. So, um, you know, that's kind of where I'm at. I just want to be kind of where I'm at. I just want to be kind of where I'm at. I just want to be free. I want to be unafraid. And it's free. I want to be unafraid. And it's free. I want to be unafraid. And it's more important for me, and I want to more important for me, and I want to more important for me, and I want to encourage anyone watching. It's more encourage anyone watching. It's more encourage anyone watching. It's more important to me for to be unafraid important to me for to be unafraid important to me for to be unafraid um, and grow than it is for me to be um, and grow than it is for me to be um, and grow than it is for me to be liked and loved. So, um, especially by liked and loved. So, um, especially by liked and loved. So, um, especially by people. So, uh, if that encourages people. So, uh, if that encourages people. So, uh, if that encourages anybody out there, praise God for that.

anybody out there, praise God for that. anybody out there, praise God for that. >> To the extent that you're comfortable, >> To the extent that you're comfortable, >> To the extent that you're comfortable, Julian, what was that dark place a few Julian, what was that dark place a few Julian, what was that dark place a few years ago? I I didn't belong to anybody. years ago? I I didn't belong to anybody. years ago? I I didn't belong to anybody. You know, You know, You know, I was given a church, but I didn't I was given a church, but I didn't I was given a church, but I didn't belong to anybody. I wasn't liberal belong to anybody. I wasn't liberal belong to anybody. I wasn't liberal enough for the liberals. I wasn't enough for the liberals. I wasn't enough for the liberals. I wasn't conservative enough for the conservative enough for the conservative enough for the conservatives. Wasn't black enough for conservatives. Wasn't black enough for conservatives. Wasn't black enough for the black people. Surely wasn't white the black people. Surely wasn't white the black people. Surely wasn't white enough for the white people. I just was enough for the white people. I just was enough for the white people. I just was like I didn't belong to anything. And I like I didn't belong to anything. And I like I didn't belong to anything. And I felt like I had to be what people needed felt like I had to be what people needed felt like I had to be what people needed me to be or I was like pushed out and me to be or I was like pushed out and me to be or I was like pushed out and ostracized. this feeling that ostracized. this feeling that ostracized. this feeling that everybody's like, you know, like um everybody's like, you know, like um everybody's like, you know, like um those games that are like, you know, those games that are like, you know, those games that are like, you know, where you're sitting in this chair and where you're sitting in this chair and where you're sitting in this chair and there's like a and they throw something there's like a and they throw something there's like a and they throw something at the target and they hit the target, at the target and they hit the target, at the target and they hit the target, you just sink down. Like that's what I you just sink down. Like that's what I you just sink down. Like that's what I felt like. I felt like that everybody felt like. I felt like that everybody felt like. I felt like that everybody was waiting on anything that I said um was waiting on anything that I said um was waiting on anything that I said um to to to get rid of me or cancel me get rid of me or cancel me get rid of me or cancel me >> or um >> or um >> or um and I think that you can only be and I think that you can only be and I think that you can only be cancelled if you are afraid of being cancelled if you are afraid of being cancelled if you are afraid of being cancelled.

cancelled. cancelled. Um but I know that I'm my my wife is not Um but I know that I'm my my wife is not Um but I know that I'm my my wife is not going to cancel me. My kids won't cancel going to cancel me. My kids won't cancel going to cancel me. My kids won't cancel me. The people that really know me won't me. The people that really know me won't me. The people that really know me won't cancel me. and I know Jesus won't. And cancel me. and I know Jesus won't. And cancel me. and I know Jesus won't. And so I was getting free from this thing so I was getting free from this thing so I was getting free from this thing that I was going to say something that that I was going to say something that that I was going to say something that was going to ruin this incredible legacy was going to ruin this incredible legacy was going to ruin this incredible legacy that I had been given. Um that I was that I had been given. Um that I was that I had been given. Um that I was going to do something that was going to going to do something that was going to going to do something that was going to just destroy what 35 years of just destroy what 35 years of just destroy what 35 years of faithfulness from my pastors had built. faithfulness from my pastors had built. faithfulness from my pastors had built. And honestly that there was no way that And honestly that there was no way that And honestly that there was no way that somebody black could could lead somebody black could could lead somebody black could could lead something that somebody white used to something that somebody white used to something that somebody white used to lead and be successful. I'm I'm being lead and be successful. I'm I'm being lead and be successful. I'm I'm being real. real. real. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um I was afraid that it was going to >> Um I was afraid that it was going to >> Um I was afraid that it was going to turn into turn into turn into something that my pastors didn't want. I something that my pastors didn't want. I something that my pastors didn't want. I didn't believe that I could do it. Um so didn't believe that I could do it. Um so didn't believe that I could do it. Um so it was super it was super it was super super tough and you know proven by you super tough and you know proven by you super tough and you know proven by you know know know the evidence that I'm always looking the evidence that I'm always looking the evidence that I'm always looking for. You can always prove something that for. You can always prove something that for. You can always prove something that you feel um if you're looking for it. So you feel um if you're looking for it. So you feel um if you're looking for it. So >> yeah. So I just had to stop. feel it.

>> yeah. So I just had to stop. feel it. >> yeah. So I just had to stop. feel it. You can find it. You can find it. You can find it. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> What helped you get out of that place? I was in a place where I was really I was in a place where I was really burdened burdened burdened by race, really burdened by this idea by race, really burdened by this idea by race, really burdened by this idea that as a black man, how could I do that as a black man, how could I do that as a black man, how could I do this? this? this? you know, you know, you know, I would say that um I would say that um I would say that um conversations like I had with you and conversations like I had with you and conversations like I had with you and then um obviously conversations that I then um obviously conversations that I then um obviously conversations that I would have with my pastors, Philip and would have with my pastors, Philip and would have with my pastors, Philip and Holly, but uh in later years it would Holly, but uh in later years it would Holly, but uh in later years it would have been Frank Deasio who just, you have been Frank Deasio who just, you have been Frank Deasio who just, you know, passed away. Um it's hard. it's hard. Everybody's had like Everybody's had like Everybody's had like I've had people that weren't the same I've had people that weren't the same I've had people that weren't the same color as me be my leader, but when you color as me be my leader, but when you color as me be my leader, but when you start to have people that aren't the start to have people that aren't the start to have people that aren't the same color as you father you, it deals same color as you father you, it deals same color as you father you, it deals with a lot of the tension in that space.

with a lot of the tension in that space. with a lot of the tension in that space. And And And I just think that in the church world, I I just think that in the church world, I I just think that in the church world, I will say what solved that tension for me will say what solved that tension for me will say what solved that tension for me and the race part is that if you're a and the race part is that if you're a and the race part is that if you're a pastor and you're pastor and you're pastor and you're white or black or brown or whatever, and white or black or brown or whatever, and white or black or brown or whatever, and you're a white pastor, you've and you've you're a white pastor, you've and you've you're a white pastor, you've and you've only led people who don't look like you, only led people who don't look like you, only led people who don't look like you, but you've never fathered anyone who but you've never fathered anyone who but you've never fathered anyone who doesn't look like you. Or as a black doesn't look like you. Or as a black doesn't look like you. Or as a black man, you've only led people who don't man, you've only led people who don't man, you've only led people who don't look like you, but you've never fathered look like you, but you've never fathered look like you, but you've never fathered or motherthered people that don't look or motherthered people that don't look or motherthered people that don't look like you. They've never become spiritual like you. They've never become spiritual like you. They've never become spiritual sons and daughters. that solved, I'm not sons and daughters. that solved, I'm not sons and daughters. that solved, I'm not kidding, 90% of the things that um I was kidding, 90% of the things that um I was kidding, 90% of the things that um I was dealing with. dealing with. dealing with. >> I think um I bring up that moment >> I think um I bring up that moment >> I think um I bring up that moment because it was like you weren't just because it was like you weren't just because it was like you weren't just talking you were talking leadership, but talking you were talking leadership, but talking you were talking leadership, but you also opened up your barbecue girl in you also opened up your barbecue girl in you also opened up your barbecue girl in your home. Like that was I'm never that your home. Like that was I'm never that your home. Like that was I'm never that was crazy to me. So there was this was crazy to me. So there was this was crazy to me. So there was this leadership thing, but there was also leadership thing, but there was also leadership thing, but there was also this spiritual this spiritual this spiritual mentor father thing that happened. We mentor father thing that happened. We mentor father thing that happened. We ate together. We It wasn't just, you ate together. We It wasn't just, you ate together. We It wasn't just, you know, so know, so know, so >> it wasn't a 40-minute talk with a >> it wasn't a 40-minute talk with a >> it wasn't a 40-minute talk with a keynote.

keynote. keynote. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> No, it wasn't a 40-minute talk with a >> No, it wasn't a 40-minute talk with a >> No, it wasn't a 40-minute talk with a keynote. It was hours and hours and keynote. It was hours and hours and keynote. It was hours and hours and hours. And we we we ate, we talked, we hours. And we we we ate, we talked, we hours. And we we we ate, we talked, we laughed, and you know, um I remember laughed, and you know, um I remember laughed, and you know, um I remember looking at my watch like it's like 8:30 looking at my watch like it's like 8:30 looking at my watch like it's like 8:30 like like or 7:30. We've been here all like like or 7:30. We've been here all like like or 7:30. We've been here all day like and there was never this like I day like and there was never this like I day like and there was never this like I don't know. So don't know. So don't know. So >> that's what I would say, you know. Um >> that's what I would say, you know. Um >> that's what I would say, you know. Um that's what it did for me. And I think that's what it did for me. And I think that's what it did for me. And I think that the the leadership that the the leadership that the the leadership emphasis of the church emphasis of the church emphasis of the church when all God wants to be is a father. when all God wants to be is a father. when all God wants to be is a father. If we do not, If we do not, If we do not, you know, have an impartation from a you know, have an impartation from a you know, have an impartation from a father and we go leadership and nobody's father and we go leadership and nobody's father and we go leadership and nobody's dads and moms spiritually, I think it dads and moms spiritually, I think it dads and moms spiritually, I think it hurts people. hurts people. hurts people. >> Um, and so I was healed by spiritual >> Um, and so I was healed by spiritual >> Um, and so I was healed by spiritual mothers and fathers who didn't look like mothers and fathers who didn't look like mothers and fathers who didn't look like me, you know. me, you know. me, you know. We love to talk about how media makes We love to talk about how media makes We love to talk about how media makes everything about race. And I was almost everything about race. And I was almost everything about race. And I was almost 30 years old before somebody who was 30 years old before somebody who was 30 years old before somebody who was white and Christian said, "I love you."

white and Christian said, "I love you." white and Christian said, "I love you." So, it's easy for them to leverage that So, it's easy for them to leverage that So, it's easy for them to leverage that because we're not we're trying to because we're not we're trying to because we're not we're trying to diversify our churches, not our dinner diversify our churches, not our dinner diversify our churches, not our dinner tables and birthday parties. So, um tables and birthday parties. So, um tables and birthday parties. So, um that's what I would say that the that's what I would say that the that's what I would say that the diversity not of the people who were diversity not of the people who were diversity not of the people who were around me, but the diversity of the around me, but the diversity of the around me, but the diversity of the people who loved me freed me from that. That's very moving. It's been a few That's very moving. It's been a few minutes since I had a cohort like that minutes since I had a cohort like that minutes since I had a cohort like that in my backyard, and you've just reminded in my backyard, and you've just reminded in my backyard, and you've just reminded me how special it is to me, too. So, so me how special it is to me, too. So, so me how special it is to me, too. So, so grateful God set that up. Really am. grateful God set that up. Really am. grateful God set that up. Really am. Really am. Man, Really am. Man, Really am. Man, >> this is rich, Julian. I didn't know >> this is rich, Julian. I didn't know >> this is rich, Julian. I didn't know where it was going to go, but it went where it was going to go, but it went where it was going to go, but it went into some beautiful, beautiful places. into some beautiful, beautiful places. into some beautiful, beautiful places. is I want to thank you so much for uh is I want to thank you so much for uh is I want to thank you so much for uh opening up um not just the time but your opening up um not just the time but your opening up um not just the time but your heart and your life and the truth and heart and your life and the truth and heart and your life and the truth and this is leadership you know this is life this is leadership you know this is life this is leadership you know this is life this is this is what we're all in and this is this is what we're all in and this is this is what we're all in and you made us all better today and I can't you made us all better today and I can't you made us all better today and I can't thank you enough for that appreciate you thank you enough for that appreciate you thank you enough for that appreciate you so much what a blessing to be a part of so much what a blessing to be a part of so much what a blessing to be a part of this podcast and so grateful for all this podcast and so grateful for all this podcast and so grateful for all that you do um love you guys so that you do um love you guys so that you do um love you guys so So, if people want to find you online, So, if people want to find you online, So, if people want to find you online, where's a good place to track with all where's a good place to track with all where's a good place to track with all things Julian Low these days?

things Julian Low these days? things Julian Low these days? >> Uh, JulianLow on Instagram. So, I got my >> Uh, JulianLow on Instagram. So, I got my >> Uh, JulianLow on Instagram. So, I got my first and last name with no random first and last name with no random first and last name with no random numbers after it. Awesome. Praise God. numbers after it. Awesome. Praise God. numbers after it. Awesome. Praise God. Julian Low. And then, um, uh, Julian Low. And then, um, uh, Julian Low. And then, um, uh, oasisla.org oasisla.org oasisla.org for any um, you know, if you want to for any um, you know, if you want to for any um, you know, if you want to check out any sermons or the stuff we're check out any sermons or the stuff we're check out any sermons or the stuff we're God's doing in LA. God's doing in LA. God's doing in LA. >> Jillian, thank you. Appreciate you, >> Jillian, thank you. Appreciate you, >> Jillian, thank you. Appreciate you, Carrie. Appreciate you.