Social Outrage: J.D. Greear On Charlie Kirk, When to Speak Out, and Culture Wars

Looking at a congregation full of Looking at a congregation full of people, some of whom are like, this is a people, some of whom are like, this is a people, some of whom are like, this is a moment where where where where where moment where where where where where moment where where where where where Jesus is being attacked and others who Jesus is being attacked and others who Jesus is being attacked and others who are saying, this I've got questions, you are saying, this I've got questions, you are saying, this I've got questions, you know, some of this feels different than know, some of this feels different than know, some of this feels different than the messaging I see preached from this the messaging I see preached from this the messaging I see preached from this church. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof church. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof church. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. Hey, I'd Leadership Podcast on YouTube. Hey, I'd Leadership Podcast on YouTube. Hey, I'd love to stay connected with you between love to stay connected with you between love to stay connected with you between episodes and to do that, just give me a episodes and to do that, just give me a episodes and to do that, just give me a follow on Instagram. Today, I sit down follow on Instagram. Today, I sit down follow on Instagram. Today, I sit down with JD Greer and we talk about Charlie with JD Greer and we talk about Charlie with JD Greer and we talk about Charlie Kirk. We talk about when to speak out, Kirk. We talk about when to speak out, Kirk. We talk about when to speak out, why it's so difficult for pastors to say why it's so difficult for pastors to say why it's so difficult for pastors to say anything about anything these days anything about anything these days anything about anything these days because of the culture wars and why because of the culture wars and why because of the culture wars and why that's happening. I think this is going that's happening. I think this is going that's happening. I think this is going to be one of the most helpful podcast to be one of the most helpful podcast to be one of the most helpful podcast conversations you've probably heard in a conversations you've probably heard in a conversations you've probably heard in a long, long time. [music] So, wherever long, long time. [music] So, wherever long, long time. [music] So, wherever you're watching this, be sure to you're watching this, be sure to you're watching this, be sure to subscribe, follow and leave a comment to subscribe, follow and leave a comment to subscribe, follow and leave a comment to join the conversation. Now, let's dive join the conversation. Now, let's dive join the conversation. Now, let's dive right into the interview with JD Greer. right into the interview with JD Greer. right into the interview with JD Greer. Well, I get a lot of books, JD and I got Well, I get a lot of books, JD and I got Well, I get a lot of books, JD and I got to tell you when I saw the subtitle, how to tell you when I saw the subtitle, how to tell you when I saw the subtitle, how to transcend the culture wars, I was to transcend the culture wars, I was to transcend the culture wars, I was like, I got to have this conversation like, I got to have this conversation like, I got to have this conversation with you. Thank you for writing on this, with you. Thank you for writing on this, with you. Thank you for writing on this, man. Yeah, well, no, I mean, thank you man. Yeah, well, no, I mean, thank you man. Yeah, well, no, I mean, thank you for having me on. It's a I mean, I feel for having me on. It's a I mean, I feel for having me on. It's a I mean, I feel very passionate. I feel like we're at a very passionate. I feel like we're at a very passionate. I feel like we're at a very I mean, what's the biblical word?

very I mean, what's the biblical word? very I mean, what's the biblical word? Kairos moment with this stuff and I Kairos moment with this stuff and I Kairos moment with this stuff and I think there's some crucial questions think there's some crucial questions think there's some crucial questions being raised and I think without trying being raised and I think without trying being raised and I think without trying to be melodramatic, Carey, I feel like to be melodramatic, Carey, I feel like to be melodramatic, Carey, I feel like the future of the future of the future of our movement here, our evangelical our movement here, our evangelical our movement here, our evangelical movement hinges on how we answer some of movement hinges on how we answer some of movement hinges on how we answer some of these questions. Right. these questions. Right. these questions. Right. So, you're on a suicide mission, is that So, you're on a suicide mission, is that So, you're on a suicide mission, is that what you're you're attempting to do what you're you're attempting to do what you're you're attempting to do here, JD? [laughter] here, JD? [laughter] here, JD? [laughter] This is I I mean, I have I tried, like I This is I I mean, I have I tried, like I This is I I mean, I have I tried, like I said to you when we were getting ready said to you when we were getting ready said to you when we were getting ready to record, I feel like I come to the to record, I feel like I come to the to record, I feel like I come to the culture wars, it's a big iceberg and I culture wars, it's a big iceberg and I culture wars, it's a big iceberg and I take my little toothpick and like, chip take my little toothpick and like, chip take my little toothpick and like, chip chip chip chip chip. You've you've chip chip chip chip. You've you've chip chip chip chip. You've you've driven like you're right in it. So, what driven like you're right in it. So, what driven like you're right in it. So, what >> and I we have a different It's an >> and I we have a different It's an >> and I we have a different It's an interesting change because I come and interesting change because I come and interesting change because I come and some I mean, you come as a Canadian some I mean, you come as a Canadian some I mean, you come as a Canadian evangelical, which means you share all evangelical, which means you share all evangelical, which means you share all of the same beliefs, but you're just of the same beliefs, but you're just of the same beliefs, but you're just coming at it from, you know, one angle coming at it from, you know, one angle coming at it from, you know, one angle and here I am, you know, I'm in a in a and here I am, you know, I'm in a in a and here I am, you know, I'm in a in a southern state and the former president southern state and the former president southern state and the former president of the Southern Baptist Convention and of the Southern Baptist Convention and of the Southern Baptist Convention and so so so >> Yes, sir. you know, we're we're we're >> Yes, sir. you know, we're we're we're >> Yes, sir. you know, we're we're we're coming at it from two different coming at it from two different coming at it from two different perspectives, but yeah, I mean, it perspectives, but yeah, I mean, it perspectives, but yeah, I mean, it should be a good conversation. should be a good conversation. should be a good conversation. Okay. So, let's start here because this Okay. So, let's start here because this Okay. So, let's start here because this is, you know, 2025 is a year that once is, you know, 2025 is a year that once is, you know, 2025 is a year that once again, I mean, we did again, I mean, we did again, I mean, we did well, not round one, but a real round of well, not round one, but a real round of well, not round one, but a real round of it in 2020 with COVID and everything it in 2020 with COVID and everything it in 2020 with COVID and everything that happened during that very pivotal that happened during that very pivotal that happened during that very pivotal year year year and then this year with Charlie Kirk and and then this year with Charlie Kirk and and then this year with Charlie Kirk and everything, it was like, what do I say?

everything, it was like, what do I say? everything, it was like, what do I say? What do I not say? How do I say it? How What do I not say? How do I say it? How What do I not say? How do I say it? How do you personally decide what issues you do you personally decide what issues you do you personally decide what issues you speak out on and which issues you do speak out on and which issues you do speak out on and which issues you do not? not? not? Yeah, I mean, Yeah, I mean, Yeah, I mean, so, let's start with the the easy part so, let's start with the the easy part so, let's start with the the easy part of that answer is as a preacher of God's of that answer is as a preacher of God's of that answer is as a preacher of God's word, we're responsible to teach the word, we're responsible to teach the word, we're responsible to teach the whole counsel of God, which means if God whole counsel of God, which means if God whole counsel of God, which means if God says it, regardless of its popularity or says it, regardless of its popularity or says it, regardless of its popularity or even its political ramifications, we even its political ramifications, we even its political ramifications, we have to preach it. You know, John the have to preach it. You know, John the have to preach it. You know, John the Baptist, here you got a guy that Baptist, here you got a guy that Baptist, here you got a guy that confronts King Herod for a socially confronts King Herod for a socially confronts King Herod for a socially acceptable sin, at least among royalty, acceptable sin, at least among royalty, acceptable sin, at least among royalty, you know, you know, you know, the relationship he had, but the relationship he had, but the relationship he had, but he confronts him and, you know, King he confronts him and, you know, King he confronts him and, you know, King Herod literally cuts off his head and Herod literally cuts off his head and Herod literally cuts off his head and Jesus does not say, man, John really Jesus does not say, man, John really Jesus does not say, man, John really blew it with his platform. He could have blew it with his platform. He could have blew it with his platform. He could have had such influence, but he had to go had such influence, but he had to go had such influence, but he had to go meddling in meddling in meddling in secondary issue. No, he Jesus called him secondary issue. No, he Jesus called him secondary issue. No, he Jesus called him the greatest prophet ever to live and the greatest prophet ever to live and the greatest prophet ever to live and we're here to rebuke the works of we're here to rebuke the works of we're here to rebuke the works of darkness and then that means calling out darkness and then that means calling out darkness and then that means calling out the idols of our age and, you know, it's the idols of our age and, you know, it's the idols of our age and, you know, it's it's pretty easy to call out the idols it's pretty easy to call out the idols it's pretty easy to call out the idols of a previous age, you know, you know, of a previous age, you know, you know, of a previous age, you know, you know, but Yeah, looking back it's crystal but Yeah, looking back it's crystal but Yeah, looking back it's crystal clear. Yeah, and they're all dead, so clear. Yeah, and they're all dead, so clear. Yeah, and they're all dead, so it's super easy, right? Yeah, right.

it's super easy, right? Yeah, right. it's super easy, right? Yeah, right. Preaching against racism now is one Preaching against racism now is one Preaching against racism now is one thing. If you're, you know, pastor of a thing. If you're, you know, pastor of a thing. If you're, you know, pastor of a church in Charleston, South Carolina in church in Charleston, South Carolina in church in Charleston, South Carolina in 1860, that's a different thing, you 1860, that's a different thing, you 1860, that's a different thing, you know, it's a different level of courage know, it's a different level of courage know, it's a different level of courage and I don't want to be guilty of and I don't want to be guilty of and I don't want to be guilty of of it all, you know, just mincing those of it all, you know, just mincing those of it all, you know, just mincing those words, you know, when when it comes to words, you know, when when it comes to words, you know, when when it comes to some of the pressing questions, the some of the pressing questions, the some of the pressing questions, the sanctity of life, sanctity of life, sanctity of life, you know, how the Bible describes gender you know, how the Bible describes gender you know, how the Bible describes gender and sexuality and marriage and those and sexuality and marriage and those and sexuality and marriage and those things. I mean, I want to be things. I mean, I want to be things. I mean, I want to be be very clear on that. be very clear on that. be very clear on that. Um at the same time, I recognize that a Um at the same time, I recognize that a Um at the same time, I recognize that a lot of our political questions, they end lot of our political questions, they end lot of our political questions, they end up being up being up being what I what you would think of as the what I what you would think of as the what I what you would think of as the application of Christian wisdom. I I I I application of Christian wisdom. I I I I application of Christian wisdom. I I I I refer to them following the lead of a refer to them following the lead of a refer to them following the lead of a friend of mine as dotted line issues. friend of mine as dotted line issues. friend of mine as dotted line issues. Like there are some things that you have Like there are some things that you have Like there are some things that you have a direct line between what the Bible a direct line between what the Bible a direct line between what the Bible says and what the policy is and there's says and what the policy is and there's says and what the policy is and there's other things that that are more of a other things that that are more of a other things that that are more of a dotted line and, you know, we know that dotted line and, you know, we know that dotted line and, you know, we know that we're commanded to love the poor, but I we're commanded to love the poor, but I we're commanded to love the poor, but I don't know of a single verse in the don't know of a single verse in the don't know of a single verse in the Bible that tells us what the ideal Bible that tells us what the ideal Bible that tells us what the ideal marginal tax rate is, what the social marginal tax rate is, what the social marginal tax rate is, what the social safety net's supposed to include or how safety net's supposed to include or how safety net's supposed to include or how many refugees and immigrants are many refugees and immigrants are many refugees and immigrants are supposed to let into the country.

supposed to let into the country. supposed to let into the country. And so, those are things that while I And so, those are things that while I And so, those are things that while I may have an opinion on those may have an opinion on those may have an opinion on those and and my Christian worldview may push and and my Christian worldview may push and and my Christian worldview may push me one direction, I I I want to be very me one direction, I I I want to be very me one direction, I I I want to be very careful ever attaching the authority of careful ever attaching the authority of careful ever attaching the authority of God or the reputation of the church to God or the reputation of the church to God or the reputation of the church to something that's not actually written in something that's not actually written in something that's not actually written in the Bible. the Bible. the Bible. And so, I I'm always trying to say, And so, I I'm always trying to say, And so, I I'm always trying to say, okay, is this what I'm saying? Is it Do okay, is this what I'm saying? Is it Do okay, is this what I'm saying? Is it Do I have a chapter and verse on this or is I have a chapter and verse on this or is I have a chapter and verse on this or is this the application that that a this the application that that a this the application that that a Christian could disagree with me on even Christian could disagree with me on even Christian could disagree with me on even if we agreed in the core concept? if we agreed in the core concept? if we agreed in the core concept? Well, and and we now have the pressure Well, and and we now have the pressure Well, and and we now have the pressure with social media, etc. Like and Charlie with social media, etc. Like and Charlie with social media, etc. Like and Charlie Kirk is a very good example, you know, Kirk is a very good example, you know, Kirk is a very good example, you know, you you you no matter what you did from the pastors no matter what you did from the pastors no matter what you did from the pastors I've talked to after that horrible, I've talked to after that horrible, I've talked to after that horrible, horrible assassination of Charlie Kirk, horrible assassination of Charlie Kirk, horrible assassination of Charlie Kirk, you either said too little, too much, you either said too little, too much, you either said too little, too much, you were too right, too left and like you were too right, too left and like you were too right, too left and like people lost huge swaths. I know of some people lost huge swaths. I know of some people lost huge swaths. I know of some who lost huge swaths of their who lost huge swaths of their who lost huge swaths of their congregation congregation congregation because they didn't get it quite right because they didn't get it quite right because they didn't get it quite right and whatever whatever they said or and whatever whatever they said or and whatever whatever they said or didn't say.

didn't say. didn't say. And it seems to be and and you know, And it seems to be and and you know, And it seems to be and and you know, it's almost like somebody said Jesus it's almost like somebody said Jesus it's almost like somebody said Jesus didn't rise from the dead when didn't rise from the dead when didn't rise from the dead when 20 of your best families just jet out 20 of your best families just jet out 20 of your best families just jet out the back door and say we'll never be the back door and say we'll never be the back door and say we'll never be back again. back again. back again. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. Um I'm I'm just curious, you know, when Um I'm I'm just curious, you know, when Um I'm I'm just curious, you know, when you when you think about that cuz I you when you think about that cuz I you when you think about that cuz I think that's the pressure that pastors think that's the pressure that pastors think that's the pressure that pastors feel is there's something that happens feel is there's something that happens feel is there's something that happens in the news and sometimes it's not as in the news and sometimes it's not as in the news and sometimes it's not as major as Charlie Kirk. It could be more major as Charlie Kirk. It could be more major as Charlie Kirk. It could be more minor, but like if you don't say it and minor, but like if you don't say it and minor, but like if you don't say it and you don't get it right, boom. Yeah. you don't get it right, boom. Yeah. you don't get it right, boom. Yeah. You're you're in trouble. Yeah, and You're you're in trouble. Yeah, and You're you're in trouble. Yeah, and that's a reflection of the kind of the that's a reflection of the kind of the that's a reflection of the kind of the social outrage culture we live in that, social outrage culture we live in that, social outrage culture we live in that, you know, I mean, it's just a cancel you know, I mean, it's just a cancel you know, I mean, it's just a cancel culture, right? I mean, if you don't do culture, right? I mean, if you don't do culture, right? I mean, if you don't do it the way that I think you should do it the way that I think you should do it the way that I think you should do it. It's kind of ironic that it. It's kind of ironic that it. It's kind of ironic that we believers who are so against cancel we believers who are so against cancel we believers who are so against cancel culture or how quickly we will cancel culture or how quickly we will cancel culture or how quickly we will cancel our church for the slightest Yeah, it our church for the slightest Yeah, it our church for the slightest Yeah, it feels like it's flipped a little bit. feels like it's flipped a little bit. feels like it's flipped a little bit. Like like that that, you know, we are Like like that that, you know, we are Like like that that, you know, we are all opposed to cancel culture and then all opposed to cancel culture and then all opposed to cancel culture and then all of a sudden we're doing it to each all of a sudden we're doing it to each all of a sudden we're doing it to each other. Is that fair to say? I I I think other. Is that fair to say? I I I think other. Is that fair to say? I I I think so and it just shows another way where so and it just shows another way where so and it just shows another way where instead of being different than the instead of being different than the instead of being different than the world, we reflect the world, you know, world, we reflect the world, you know, world, we reflect the world, you know, and then maybe that's I know these and then maybe that's I know these and then maybe that's I know these sounds like preacher lines, but maybe sounds like preacher lines, but maybe sounds like preacher lines, but maybe that's because we get discipled out of that's because we get discipled out of that's because we get discipled out of the Bible for 1 hour a week and we get the Bible for 1 hour a week and we get the Bible for 1 hour a week and we get discipled by cable news and talk shows, discipled by cable news and talk shows, discipled by cable news and talk shows, you know, for 30 hours a week and maybe you know, for 30 hours a week and maybe you know, for 30 hours a week and maybe we end up reflecting the world more than we end up reflecting the world more than we end up reflecting the world more than we challenge it, but you know, we challenge it, but you know, we challenge it, but you know, specifically to your question, specifically to your question, specifically to your question, you know, with the just horrific thing you know, with the just horrific thing you know, with the just horrific thing with Charlie Kirk, with Charlie Kirk, with Charlie Kirk, um you know, social media, the way the um you know, social media, the way the um you know, social media, the way the algorithms work is it ends up feeding algorithms work is it ends up feeding algorithms work is it ends up feeding you kind of what you already think and you kind of what you already think and you kind of what you already think and what you it's it's you know, the way it what you it's it's you know, the way it what you it's it's you know, the way it works is it creates this kind of outrage

works is it creates this kind of outrage works is it creates this kind of outrage culture and that generates more clicks culture and that generates more clicks culture and that generates more clicks and so, and so, and so, I'm realizing that I'm dealing with a I'm realizing that I'm dealing with a I'm realizing that I'm dealing with a congregation of people who um are you congregation of people who um are you congregation of people who um are you know, there are different levels of how know, there are different levels of how know, there are different levels of how aware they are of the news and they're aware they are of the news and they're aware they are of the news and they're also also also at different places as into what they're at different places as into what they're at different places as into what they're getting fed getting fed getting fed um with stuff and so, there are people um with stuff and so, there are people um with stuff and so, there are people who recognize that who recognize that who recognize that you know, by it's pretty clear that you know, by it's pretty clear that you know, by it's pretty clear that there was ideological motivations in there was ideological motivations in there was ideological motivations in that assassination and that there are a that assassination and that there are a that assassination and that there are a lot of believers feeling like they were lot of believers feeling like they were lot of believers feeling like they were very attacked. You know, their their very attacked. You know, their their very attacked. You know, their their their their their their viewpoint was their their their their viewpoint was their their their their viewpoint was attacked and they are are coming in attacked and they are are coming in attacked and they are are coming in scared, honestly. I hadn't seen that in scared, honestly. I hadn't seen that in scared, honestly. I hadn't seen that in our church in quite a while where just our church in quite a while where just our church in quite a while where just there was a a sense of mourning and fear there was a a sense of mourning and fear there was a a sense of mourning and fear because they were like, this because they were like, this because they were like, this this was was somebody that was so he was this was was somebody that was so he was this was was somebody that was so he was one of the few that that would go into one of the few that that would go into one of the few that that would go into these secular progressivist spaces and these secular progressivist spaces and these secular progressivist spaces and you can't think of you know, something you can't think of you know, something you can't think of you know, something more secular progressivist than the more secular progressivist than the more secular progressivist than the college campus and was willing to say college campus and was willing to say college campus and was willing to say things that few people were willing to things that few people were willing to things that few people were willing to say, you know, and and there was a lot say, you know, and and there was a lot say, you know, and and there was a lot of admiration. Well, at the same time, of admiration. Well, at the same time, of admiration. Well, at the same time, you had others that what they're getting you had others that what they're getting you had others that what they're getting are these presentations are these presentations are these presentations whether they're out of context or not, whether they're out of context or not, whether they're out of context or not, you know, I you know, I you know, I I won't even weigh in on that, but just I won't even weigh in on that, but just I won't even weigh in on that, but just they're seeing what they're seeing. And they're seeing what they're seeing. And they're seeing what they're seeing. And so, they're thinking like, I don't quite so, they're thinking like, I don't quite so, they're thinking like, I don't quite know how to interpret this cuz for some know how to interpret this cuz for some know how to interpret this cuz for some of them it was like the first time of them it was like the first time of them it was like the first time they'd heard about him. And so, I'm they'd heard about him. And so, I'm they'd heard about him. And so, I'm looking at a congregation full of looking at a congregation full of looking at a congregation full of people, some of whom are like, this is a people, some of whom are like, this is a people, some of whom are like, this is a moment where where where where where moment where where where where where moment where where where where where Jesus is being attacked and others who Jesus is being attacked and others who Jesus is being attacked and others who are saying, this I've got questions, you are saying, this I've got questions, you are saying, this I've got questions, you know, some of this feels different than know, some of this feels different than know, some of this feels different than the messaging I see preached from this the messaging I see preached from this the messaging I see preached from this church. Um what I know we can all do is,

church. Um what I know we can all do is, church. Um what I know we can all do is, you know, I I I feel like as a pastor, you know, I I I feel like as a pastor, you know, I I I feel like as a pastor, you have to meet people where they are you have to meet people where they are you have to meet people where they are and sometimes that just means mourning and sometimes that just means mourning and sometimes that just means mourning with them, mourning with those who with them, mourning with those who with them, mourning with those who mourn. We all recognize this was a mourn. We all recognize this was a mourn. We all recognize this was a tragedy. It didn't feel like the time tragedy. It didn't feel like the time tragedy. It didn't feel like the time that you get in and try to, you know, that you get in and try to, you know, that you get in and try to, you know, unpack everything and go into the fine unpack everything and go into the fine unpack everything and go into the fine minutia. I mean, just say this was a minutia. I mean, just say this was a minutia. I mean, just say this was a tragedy this week and we mourn the loss tragedy this week and we mourn the loss tragedy this week and we mourn the loss of life. We mourn for their family. of life. We mourn for their family. of life. We mourn for their family. Uh you know, I mourn what this does for Uh you know, I mourn what this does for Uh you know, I mourn what this does for some of you as you're thinking about how some of you as you're thinking about how some of you as you're thinking about how you you you engage in your kids at college and and engage in your kids at college and and engage in your kids at college and and and do that, but I mean, just to be and do that, but I mean, just to be and do that, but I mean, just to be totally transparent, we had the same totally transparent, we had the same totally transparent, we had the same reaction you just described. I got, you reaction you just described. I got, you reaction you just described. I got, you know, literally within within minutes, know, literally within within minutes, know, literally within within minutes, you know, I'm getting people saying, you know, I'm getting people saying, you know, I'm getting people saying, hey, why didn't we make more out of hey, why didn't we make more out of hey, why didn't we make more out of this? And others who were saying, this? And others who were saying, this? And others who were saying, you know, why did we why did you know, you know, why did we why did you know, you know, why did we why did you know, so anyway, so anyway, so anyway, it's a So, I want to back up and I I I it's a So, I want to back up and I I I it's a So, I want to back up and I I I would love to exegete that case study. would love to exegete that case study. would love to exegete that case study. It's not a case study, it's a tragedy. It's not a case study, it's a tragedy. It's not a case study, it's a tragedy. Yeah. At every level, but I you know, Yeah. At every level, but I you know, Yeah. At every level, but I you know, you said something that really clicked you said something that really clicked you said something that really clicked with me with me with me and I got to say it's a new thought even and I got to say it's a new thought even and I got to say it's a new thought even though it's kind of obvious and maybe though it's kind of obvious and maybe though it's kind of obvious and maybe I'm just, you know, the slow kid in the I'm just, you know, the slow kid in the I'm just, you know, the slow kid in the class here, but class here, but class here, but you're right when you sit in front of a you're right when you sit in front of a you're right when you sit in front of a church of 100 or 10,000, church of 100 or 10,000, church of 100 or 10,000, there are 10,000 different Instagrams, there are 10,000 different Instagrams, there are 10,000 different Instagrams, TikToks, TikToks, TikToks, um social media feeds there um social media feeds there um social media feeds there and I think that really explains like and I think that really explains like and I think that really explains like the week of Charlie Kirk because I the week of Charlie Kirk because I the week of Charlie Kirk because I follow so many church leaders and so follow so many church leaders and so follow so many church leaders and so many evangelical church leaders, many evangelical church leaders, many evangelical church leaders, I kind of got the what might be called I kind of got the what might be called I kind of got the what might be called the writer wing, the right wing the writer wing, the right wing the writer wing, the right wing narrative on my social, but I was also

narrative on my social, but I was also narrative on my social, but I was also seeing more in the news people who had seeing more in the news people who had seeing more in the news people who had the opposite feed happening and I'm the opposite feed happening and I'm the opposite feed happening and I'm like, I haven't seen any of that. But if like, I haven't seen any of that. But if like, I haven't seen any of that. But if you have some people who are just their you have some people who are just their you have some people who are just their algorithms are different and everybody's algorithms are different and everybody's algorithms are different and everybody's algorithm is different. algorithm is different. algorithm is different. It just makes so much sense. You've It just makes so much sense. You've It just makes so much sense. You've you've you've given me like this light you've you've given me like this light you've you've given me like this light bulb moment where of course you're not bulb moment where of course you're not bulb moment where of course you're not going to be able to please everybody going to be able to please everybody going to be able to please everybody because it's not just what they believe because it's not just what they believe because it's not just what they believe or how they voted. It's that all week or how they voted. It's that all week or how they voted. It's that all week they have been fed video after video they have been fed video after video they have been fed video after video after video after video after comment after video after video after comment after video after video after comment after reaction piece after YouTube after after reaction piece after YouTube after after reaction piece after YouTube after whatever of whatever is fueling and whatever of whatever is fueling and whatever of whatever is fueling and probably on the extreme side, wherever probably on the extreme side, wherever probably on the extreme side, wherever they were leaning prior to an event. they were leaning prior to an event. they were leaning prior to an event. Does that does that make sense? Like Does that does that make sense? Like Does that does that make sense? Like I've never heard it articulated I've never heard it articulated I've never heard it articulated that plainly and that clearly, but it that plainly and that clearly, but it that plainly and that clearly, but it really like you really helped me piece really like you really helped me piece really like you really helped me piece something together and of course that's something together and of course that's something together and of course that's what's happening. Right. I hadn't what's happening. Right. I hadn't what's happening. Right. I hadn't thought about that. Yeah. thought about that. Yeah. thought about that. Yeah. >> Like I knew it, but I didn't connect it. >> Like I knew it, but I didn't connect it. >> Like I knew it, but I didn't connect it. Right. And there's a time and a place, Right. And there's a time and a place, Right. And there's a time and a place, you know, for a church leaders to have you know, for a church leaders to have you know, for a church leaders to have to untangle that. There's also a time to untangle that. There's also a time to untangle that. There's also a time and a place just to to mourn and meet and a place just to to mourn and meet and a place just to to mourn and meet people where they are. And I think people where they are. And I think people where they are. And I think regardless as you know, you you even regardless as you know, you you even regardless as you know, you you even alluded to um as horrific as this was, alluded to um as horrific as this was, alluded to um as horrific as this was, it it'd be hard for us to look into the it it'd be hard for us to look into the it it'd be hard for us to look into the future and say nothing like this will future and say nothing like this will future and say nothing like this will ever happen again. And all the variables ever happen again. And all the variables ever happen again. And all the variables may be different. This time it may be may be different. This time it may be may be different. This time it may be somebody that represents different somebody that represents different somebody that represents different things than than Charlie Kirk did at things than than Charlie Kirk did at things than than Charlie Kirk did at least did, you know, politically. And least did, you know, politically. And least did, you know, politically. And we've got to ask like in that moment we've got to ask like in that moment we've got to ask like in that moment when there were these moments, whether when there were these moments, whether when there were these moments, whether their names are Charlie Kirk or some their names are Charlie Kirk or some their names are Charlie Kirk or some other tragedy, what is it that we want other tragedy, what is it that we want other tragedy, what is it that we want to you know, how do we want to meet

to you know, how do we want to meet to you know, how do we want to meet people where they are and how do we want people where they are and how do we want people where they are and how do we want to be to be to be uh how do we want to not be subject to uh how do we want to not be subject to uh how do we want to not be subject to the forces that are trying to shape us the forces that are trying to shape us the forces that are trying to shape us and instead be forming. I mean I know and instead be forming. I mean I know and instead be forming. I mean I know this sounds so this sounds so this sounds so like simplistic and Wendell Berry-ish, like simplistic and Wendell Berry-ish, like simplistic and Wendell Berry-ish, but I I felt like one of the biggest but I I felt like one of the biggest but I I felt like one of the biggest messages we tried to give to the the messages we tried to give to the the messages we tried to give to the the church during that was, hey, there needs church during that was, hey, there needs church during that was, hey, there needs to be conversation in in in in in in our to be conversation in in in in in in our to be conversation in in in in in in our small groups. small groups. small groups. That you know, it's not me from the That you know, it's not me from the That you know, it's not me from the pulpit that needs to do this. It's not pulpit that needs to do this. It's not pulpit that needs to do this. It's not you guys on social media. It's a group you guys on social media. It's a group you guys on social media. It's a group of people who are meeting together who of people who are meeting together who of people who are meeting together who love and trust each other that can say, love and trust each other that can say, love and trust each other that can say, well, this is this is why I feel the way well, this is this is why I feel the way well, this is this is why I feel the way I feel and this is why I I'm reacting I feel and this is why I I'm reacting I feel and this is why I I'm reacting this way. That's that's how the church this way. That's that's how the church this way. That's that's how the church is supposed to work, not as a social is supposed to work, not as a social is supposed to work, not as a social media war. Did you suggest that and if media war. Did you suggest that and if media war. Did you suggest that and if so, how did it go? Yeah. I mean, well, so, how did it go? Yeah. I mean, well, so, how did it go? Yeah. I mean, well, you know, things always sound so good you know, things always sound so good you know, things always sound so good when I suggest them and when I explain when I suggest them and when I explain when I suggest them and when I explain them on your show, Carey, but uh people, them on your show, Carey, but uh people, them on your show, Carey, but uh people, we're all messy, aren't we? You know, we're all messy, aren't we? You know, we're all messy, aren't we? You know, Oh, yeah. My goodness, me, too. Yeah, I Oh, yeah. My goodness, me, too. Yeah, I Oh, yeah. My goodness, me, too. Yeah, I mean, we're going to be dealing with mean, we're going to be dealing with mean, we're going to be dealing with with this and with this and with this and >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> I I I would like to think that even >> I I I would like to think that even >> I I I would like to think that even similar to some of the events in 2020 similar to some of the events in 2020 similar to some of the events in 2020 that even after we get through a little that even after we get through a little that even after we get through a little bit of the rough and tumble in it that bit of the rough and tumble in it that bit of the rough and tumble in it that we'll be stronger and a better family we'll be stronger and a better family we'll be stronger and a better family cuz we went through this.

cuz we went through this. cuz we went through this. You know, going back 5 years ago in You know, going back 5 years ago in You know, going back 5 years ago in 2020, I mean, our church like like every 2020, I mean, our church like like every 2020, I mean, our church like like every church, we lost people because we didn't church, we lost people because we didn't church, we lost people because we didn't do it exactly the way they thought. do it exactly the way they thought. do it exactly the way they thought. Yeah. But the church that came through Yeah. But the church that came through Yeah. But the church that came through that was stronger and more unified in that was stronger and more unified in that was stronger and more unified in Christ. And I I'm hoping that similarly Christ. And I I'm hoping that similarly Christ. And I I'm hoping that similarly those who press on into these those who press on into these those who press on into these relationships that will be will be a relationships that will be will be a relationships that will be will be a greater body. greater body. greater body. So, full disclosure, I didn't listen to So, full disclosure, I didn't listen to So, full disclosure, I didn't listen to your announcement. I'm not even sure if your announcement. I'm not even sure if your announcement. I'm not even sure if it's online of you know, the Sunday it's online of you know, the Sunday it's online of you know, the Sunday after Charlie Kirk's assassination. after Charlie Kirk's assassination. after Charlie Kirk's assassination. Uh but you said something that I heard a Uh but you said something that I heard a Uh but you said something that I heard a lot of pastors try to do. It's like this lot of pastors try to do. It's like this lot of pastors try to do. It's like this is a week of mourning. It wasn't the is a week of mourning. It wasn't the is a week of mourning. It wasn't the only incident. There was that subway only incident. There was that subway only incident. There was that subway shooting. Mhm. Uh there were a number of shooting. Mhm. Uh there were a number of shooting. Mhm. Uh there were a number of things that happened that week. It was things that happened that week. It was things that happened that week. It was 9/11, the memorial of that. And so they 9/11, the memorial of that. And so they 9/11, the memorial of that. And so they kind of rolled it into like a like a kind of rolled it into like a like a kind of rolled it into like a like a hey, we're going to pray together for hey, we're going to pray together for hey, we're going to pray together for everybody who's hurting. everybody who's hurting. everybody who's hurting. And what I heard, I wasn't preaching And what I heard, I wasn't preaching And what I heard, I wasn't preaching that weekend and I'm a founding pastor, that weekend and I'm a founding pastor, that weekend and I'm a founding pastor, so it kind of gives me a pass on the the so it kind of gives me a pass on the the so it kind of gives me a pass on the the the the static around this stuff is the the static around this stuff is the the static around this stuff is even people who did that, which seems even people who did that, which seems even people who did that, which seems very pastoral, um very pastoral, um very pastoral, um generated a lot of of of hate on, you generated a lot of of of hate on, you generated a lot of of of hate on, you know, and and resistance on both sides.

know, and and resistance on both sides. know, and and resistance on both sides. Any any thoughts? Like could you tell us Any any thoughts? Like could you tell us Any any thoughts? Like could you tell us how you framed it and what the reaction how you framed it and what the reaction how you framed it and what the reaction was? Yeah, so I mean, I named him and was? Yeah, so I mean, I named him and was? Yeah, so I mean, I named him and called it an assassination. I you know, called it an assassination. I you know, called it an assassination. I you know, explained at least what what we were explained at least what what we were explained at least what what we were confident of at the time that it you confident of at the time that it you confident of at the time that it you know, did seem ideologically motivated know, did seem ideologically motivated know, did seem ideologically motivated and that people were afraid and this was and that people were afraid and this was and that people were afraid and this was an unmitigated without caveat tragedy. an unmitigated without caveat tragedy. an unmitigated without caveat tragedy. Yeah. And it's this not democracy. This Yeah. And it's this not democracy. This Yeah. And it's this not democracy. This is is anarchy. Um you know, for those is is anarchy. Um you know, for those is is anarchy. Um you know, for those kinds of things. Um kinds of things. Um kinds of things. Um I I you know, I I you know, I I you know, I I would not have felt comfortable I I would not have felt comfortable I I would not have felt comfortable I would not have felt it honoring to our I would not have felt it honoring to our I would not have felt it honoring to our people or to them to just say people or to them to just say people or to them to just say the events of this week, you know, kind the events of this week, you know, kind the events of this week, you know, kind of lump them all together. of lump them all together. of lump them all together. >> to go specific, name it. Yeah, name it >> to go specific, name it. Yeah, name it >> to go specific, name it. Yeah, name it and and and cuz that just felt both and and and cuz that just felt both and and and cuz that just felt both pastorally like the right thing and like pastorally like the right thing and like pastorally like the right thing and like I said, honoring kind of the moment. Um I said, honoring kind of the moment. Um I said, honoring kind of the moment. Um you know, where where where some people you know, where where where some people you know, where where where some people would have wanted to go beyond that is would have wanted to go beyond that is would have wanted to go beyond that is to really you know, let's cancel the to really you know, let's cancel the to really you know, let's cancel the sermon and let's just talk about this sermon and let's just talk about this sermon and let's just talk about this and let's have a time where we you know, and let's have a time where we you know, and let's have a time where we you know, grieve the persecution that that people, grieve the persecution that that people, grieve the persecution that that people, you know, are under. Um you know, are under. Um you know, are under. Um there's some that wanted to go there.

there's some that wanted to go there. there's some that wanted to go there. That that was I did not feel that that That that was I did not feel that that That that was I did not feel that that was the right place for us to go. I knew was the right place for us to go. I knew was the right place for us to go. I knew that there were a lot of people coming that there were a lot of people coming that there were a lot of people coming back into church, you know, just cuz back into church, you know, just cuz back into church, you know, just cuz we've seen that, but wanted to use that we've seen that, but wanted to use that we've seen that, but wanted to use that moment to say, this is our message and moment to say, this is our message and moment to say, this is our message and Right. And this is this is we're we're Right. And this is this is we're we're Right. And this is this is we're we're gospel people. This episode is brought gospel people. This episode is brought gospel people. This episode is brought to you by my 2026 Church Trends. Hey, as to you by my 2026 Church Trends. Hey, as to you by my 2026 Church Trends. Hey, as you head into 2026, what cultural shifts you head into 2026, what cultural shifts you head into 2026, what cultural shifts do you need to keep an eye on as a do you need to keep an eye on as a do you need to keep an eye on as a church leader? I mean, it's a really big church leader? I mean, it's a really big church leader? I mean, it's a really big question, right? You got your head down question, right? You got your head down question, right? You got your head down trying to do the work from day to day, trying to do the work from day to day, trying to do the work from day to day, but there's some big stuff happening, but there's some big stuff happening, but there's some big stuff happening, right? You and I both know how easy it right? You and I both know how easy it right? You and I both know how easy it is to get caught up into the week to is to get caught up into the week to is to get caught up into the week to week of ministry, sermons, meetings, you week of ministry, sermons, meetings, you week of ministry, sermons, meetings, you know, Sunday after Sunday grind and you know, Sunday after Sunday grind and you know, Sunday after Sunday grind and you just miss what's really going on in the just miss what's really going on in the just miss what's really going on in the culture. That's why every year I release culture. That's why every year I release culture. That's why every year I release my annual Church Trends Report and it's my annual Church Trends Report and it's my annual Church Trends Report and it's to help you see what's next and to lead to help you see what's next and to lead to help you see what's next and to lead with clarity. So for 2026, I've with clarity. So for 2026, I've with clarity. So for 2026, I've identified seven disruptive trends that identified seven disruptive trends that identified seven disruptive trends that are shaping the future of the church. are shaping the future of the church. are shaping the future of the church. And we're seeing Gen Z's surprising And we're seeing Gen Z's surprising And we're seeing Gen Z's surprising surge in church attendance. They're kind surge in church attendance. They're kind surge in church attendance. They're kind of leading it. Uh something very few of leading it. Uh something very few of leading it. Uh something very few people expected 2 years ago. There's a people expected 2 years ago. There's a people expected 2 years ago. There's a new boldness in evangelism I'm going to new boldness in evangelism I'm going to new boldness in evangelism I'm going to be talking about. And maybe the most be talking about. And maybe the most be talking about. And maybe the most concerning of all, most churches still concerning of all, most churches still concerning of all, most churches still aren't ready for the AI revolution aren't ready for the AI revolution aren't ready for the AI revolution that's already reshaping ministry and that's already reshaping ministry and that's already reshaping ministry and leadership. So those are just a few of leadership. So those are just a few of leadership. So those are just a few of the trends that we'll be unpacking this the trends that we'll be unpacking this the trends that we'll be unpacking this year. The trends are backed by data and year. The trends are backed by data and year. The trends are backed by data and I share my thoughts on why it's I share my thoughts on why it's I share my thoughts on why it's important and what you can do about it.

important and what you can do about it. important and what you can do about it. So this year I'm doing something new. So this year I'm doing something new. So this year I'm doing something new. All the trends are premiering live All the trends are premiering live All the trends are premiering live inside the Art of Leadership Academy. inside the Art of Leadership Academy. inside the Art of Leadership Academy. You'll not only get the full 2026 Church You'll not only get the full 2026 Church You'll not only get the full 2026 Church Trends Report and the leader guide, but Trends Report and the leader guide, but Trends Report and the leader guide, but also a live interactive Q&A and podcast also a live interactive Q&A and podcast also a live interactive Q&A and podcast series. All of that is launching in series. All of that is launching in series. All of that is launching in January. So if you want to be the first January. So if you want to be the first January. So if you want to be the first to access it, head on over to 2026 to access it, head on over to 2026 to access it, head on over to 2026 churchtrends.com for free access. Once churchtrends.com for free access. Once churchtrends.com for free access. Once you've signed up, you'll be in the loop you've signed up, you'll be in the loop you've signed up, you'll be in the loop for everything related to my 2026 Church for everything related to my 2026 Church for everything related to my 2026 Church Trends Report. Again, it's all free, so Trends Report. Again, it's all free, so Trends Report. Again, it's all free, so just click the link in the description just click the link in the description just click the link in the description of this episode or visit 2026 of this episode or visit 2026 of this episode or visit 2026 churchtrends.com. The future of the churchtrends.com. The future of the churchtrends.com. The future of the church is still bright, especially for church is still bright, especially for church is still bright, especially for leaders who see it clearly and who leaders who see it clearly and who leaders who see it clearly and who respond wisely. This episode is brought respond wisely. This episode is brought respond wisely. This episode is brought to you by Subsplash. Did you know the to you by Subsplash. Did you know the to you by Subsplash. Did you know the average church juggles six or more average church juggles six or more average church juggles six or more different platforms just to do ministry? different platforms just to do ministry? different platforms just to do ministry? Websites, apps, media, giving tools, Websites, apps, media, giving tools, Websites, apps, media, giving tools, messaging platforms, the list just goes messaging platforms, the list just goes messaging platforms, the list just goes on and on and on. You know what the on and on and on. You know what the on and on and on. You know what the result is? Frustrated leaders, result is? Frustrated leaders, result is? Frustrated leaders, disconnected people, and too often disconnected people, and too often disconnected people, and too often missed opportunities for life change.

missed opportunities for life change. missed opportunities for life change. And if you've ever felt buried under the And if you've ever felt buried under the And if you've ever felt buried under the weight of managing systems and weight of managing systems and weight of managing systems and technology instead of leading your technology instead of leading your technology instead of leading your church, you're not alone. Subsplash was church, you're not alone. Subsplash was church, you're not alone. Subsplash was built to change that. It's one unified built to change that. It's one unified built to change that. It's one unified platform that brings together your platform that brings together your platform that brings together your website, mobile app, giving, church website, mobile app, giving, church website, mobile app, giving, church management, live streaming, and more so management, live streaming, and more so management, live streaming, and more so you can simplify your systems to amplify you can simplify your systems to amplify you can simplify your systems to amplify your ministry impact. That means less your ministry impact. That means less your ministry impact. That means less time wasted on managing different time wasted on managing different time wasted on managing different systems and more time making disciples. systems and more time making disciples. systems and more time making disciples. So cut the clutter, keep the calling, So cut the clutter, keep the calling, So cut the clutter, keep the calling, Subsplash is here to help. Head to Subsplash is here to help. Head to Subsplash is here to help. Head to subsplash.com/carey subsplash.com/carey subsplash.com/carey today and you'll save $500 when you sign today and you'll save $500 when you sign today and you'll save $500 when you sign up. Anything else on on those difficult up. Anything else on on those difficult up. Anything else on on those difficult moments and Charlie Kirk was just such a moments and Charlie Kirk was just such a moments and Charlie Kirk was just such a a big national and international moment. a big national and international moment. a big national and international moment. The pressure that Here's a question for The pressure that Here's a question for The pressure that Here's a question for you. you. you. When something like that happens and When something like that happens and When something like that happens and you're right, it won't be the last time. you're right, it won't be the last time. you're right, it won't be the last time. It wasn't quite the first time. It will It wasn't quite the first time. It will It wasn't quite the first time. It will not be the last time. Mhm. not be the last time. Mhm. not be the last time. Mhm. What goes through you? What is your What goes through you? What is your What goes through you? What is your interior thought life, heart life, interior thought life, heart life, interior thought life, heart life, prayer life like as that happens and you prayer life like as that happens and you prayer life like as that happens and you get ready get ready get ready to step up on a Sunday morning or on to step up on a Sunday morning or on to step up on a Sunday morning or on social media and speak into it.

social media and speak into it. social media and speak into it. Yeah, there's a I mean, I would I'd be Yeah, there's a I mean, I would I'd be Yeah, there's a I mean, I would I'd be lying if I I didn't tell you that lying if I I didn't tell you that lying if I I didn't tell you that there's a a great deal of consternation there's a a great deal of consternation there's a a great deal of consternation and like cuz you want to be and like cuz you want to be and like cuz you want to be you want to be wise in this moment. You you want to be wise in this moment. You you want to be wise in this moment. You want to be helpful. I want to serve the want to be helpful. I want to serve the want to be helpful. I want to serve the forward interest of the gospel. I want forward interest of the gospel. I want forward interest of the gospel. I want to not be a distraction. to not be a distraction. to not be a distraction. And realizing that people are in just And realizing that people are in just And realizing that people are in just such [laughter] radically different such [laughter] radically different such [laughter] radically different places on it, you know, in back in 2020, places on it, you know, in back in 2020, places on it, you know, in back in 2020, a lot of our white community had a lot of our white community had a lot of our white community had difficulty understanding what was difficulty understanding what was difficulty understanding what was happening in the black community through happening in the black community through happening in the black community through some of the things that were going on. some of the things that were going on. some of the things that were going on. And what I learned during that time is And what I learned during that time is And what I learned during that time is is when something like that happens, I is when something like that happens, I is when something like that happens, I need to have the right counselors in my need to have the right counselors in my need to have the right counselors in my life that can help me understand how life that can help me understand how life that can help me understand how people who see the world maybe from a people who see the world maybe from a people who see the world maybe from a different viewpoint than I do, how they different viewpoint than I do, how they different viewpoint than I do, how they are processing things. are processing things. are processing things. Because, you know, that's part of Because, you know, that's part of Because, you know, that's part of pastoring is stepping into people's pastoring is stepping into people's pastoring is stepping into people's lives where they are, grieving with lives where they are, grieving with lives where they are, grieving with those who grieve. those who grieve. those who grieve. And you know, there were things that And you know, there were things that And you know, there were things that were occurring in that community, the were occurring in that community, the were occurring in that community, the black community that somebody that lives black community that somebody that lives black community that somebody that lives in the white community it just just not in the white community it just just not in the white community it just just not as aware of, you know, here's a here's a as aware of, you know, here's a here's a as aware of, you know, here's a here's a narrative. Here's a set of questions and narrative. Here's a set of questions and narrative. Here's a set of questions and emotions that right or wrong, this is emotions that right or wrong, this is emotions that right or wrong, this is what's what's happening. Um you know, so what's what's happening. Um you know, so what's what's happening. Um you know, so what I I I say would say to other what I I I say would say to other what I I I say would say to other pastors is make sure pastors is make sure pastors is make sure that that's a week that you do an extra that that's a week that you do an extra that that's a week that you do an extra amount of listening. That you're amount of listening. That you're amount of listening. That you're listening very, very deeply, which means listening very, very deeply, which means listening very, very deeply, which means some intentional listening. You know, some intentional listening. You know, some intentional listening. You know, like who who among our people like who who among our people like who who among our people >> right? But listening to friends and >> right? But listening to friends and >> right? But listening to friends and elders and counsel and staff and the elders and counsel and staff and the elders and counsel and staff and the Lord and Yeah, I've had a practice Carey Lord and Yeah, I've had a practice Carey Lord and Yeah, I've had a practice Carey for years of sending out uh the message for years of sending out uh the message for years of sending out uh the message that I plan to preach um on Wednesday that I plan to preach um on Wednesday that I plan to preach um on Wednesday afternoon. I send it out and it goes to

afternoon. I send it out and it goes to afternoon. I send it out and it goes to a a very diverse group of people. a a very diverse group of people. a a very diverse group of people. And they are reading it just through And they are reading it just through And they are reading it just through different lenses. And it's going to be different lenses. And it's going to be different lenses. And it's going to be everything from the counseling viewpoint everything from the counseling viewpoint everything from the counseling viewpoint to the female viewpoint to Yeah. Because to the female viewpoint to Yeah. Because to the female viewpoint to Yeah. Because they are seeing things, even on a they are seeing things, even on a they are seeing things, even on a non-charged week, they're seeing things non-charged week, they're seeing things non-charged week, they're seeing things that I'm just not thinking about because that I'm just not thinking about because that I'm just not thinking about because they've got a set of questions coming to they've got a set of questions coming to they've got a set of questions coming to a text or a principle that I wouldn't a text or a principle that I wouldn't a text or a principle that I wouldn't have, especially on these kinds of um have, especially on these kinds of um have, especially on these kinds of um weeks. We need that kind of counsel cuz weeks. We need that kind of counsel cuz weeks. We need that kind of counsel cuz in the multitude, that's where wisdom in the multitude, that's where wisdom in the multitude, that's where wisdom is. So, don't go into the pulpit alone. is. So, don't go into the pulpit alone. is. So, don't go into the pulpit alone. Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Um Um Um The other thing you said earlier, which The other thing you said earlier, which The other thing you said earlier, which I totally resonate with, I totally resonate with, I totally resonate with, the whole counsel of God, right? So, we the whole counsel of God, right? So, we the whole counsel of God, right? So, we have Genesis to Revelation. I remember have Genesis to Revelation. I remember have Genesis to Revelation. I remember when I was still part before I became when I was still part before I became when I was still part before I became non-denominational, we were part of a non-denominational, we were part of a non-denominational, we were part of a mainline denomination, nobody was mainline denomination, nobody was mainline denomination, nobody was talking about the second coming. Nobody. talking about the second coming. Nobody. talking about the second coming. Nobody. And I'm like, all right, I'll be the one And I'm like, all right, I'll be the one And I'm like, all right, I'll be the one guy who talks about the second coming. guy who talks about the second coming. guy who talks about the second coming. Did a couple of series, did a series on Did a couple of series, did a series on Did a couple of series, did a series on Revelation. Revelation. Revelation. >> Behind and it became a best-selling uh >> Behind and it became a best-selling uh >> Behind and it became a best-selling uh novel series. novel series. novel series. >> know, that was my pseudonym.

>> know, that was my pseudonym. >> know, that was my pseudonym. Unfortunately, I gave them the wrong Unfortunately, I gave them the wrong Unfortunately, I gave them the wrong bank account, but you know, um yeah, bank account, but you know, um yeah, bank account, but you know, um yeah, yeah, like I I talked about it from yeah, like I I talked about it from yeah, like I I talked about it from >> Yeah. that perspective because I >> Yeah. that perspective because I >> Yeah. that perspective because I thought, if I'm going to faithfully thought, if I'm going to faithfully thought, if I'm going to faithfully preach the Bible. And I spoke out about preach the Bible. And I spoke out about preach the Bible. And I spoke out about sexuality when it wasn't popular, etc., sexuality when it wasn't popular, etc., sexuality when it wasn't popular, etc., etc. So, I mean, I had that in my I had etc. So, I mean, I had that in my I had etc. So, I mean, I had that in my I had kind of a regular rotation of like, kind of a regular rotation of like, kind of a regular rotation of like, okay, we haven't really dealt with that okay, we haven't really dealt with that okay, we haven't really dealt with that in a while. So, I got to deal with that in a while. So, I got to deal with that in a while. So, I got to deal with that if we're going to preach the whole if we're going to preach the whole if we're going to preach the whole counsel of God. And I think pretty much counsel of God. And I think pretty much counsel of God. And I think pretty much everybody here who's a preacher everybody here who's a preacher everybody here who's a preacher hopefully resonates with that. It's hopefully resonates with that. It's hopefully resonates with that. It's like, yeah, you better cover the major like, yeah, you better cover the major like, yeah, you better cover the major issues. But I think the cultural issues. But I think the cultural issues. But I think the cultural pressure right now is, no, you need to pressure right now is, no, you need to pressure right now is, no, you need to be talking about and let's move Charlie be talking about and let's move Charlie be talking about and let's move Charlie Kirk off to the side for a minute as the Kirk off to the side for a minute as the Kirk off to the side for a minute as the issue. But you need to be talking about issue. But you need to be talking about issue. But you need to be talking about immigration now. You need to be talking immigration now. You need to be talking immigration now. You need to be talking about this now. You need to be whatever about this now. You need to be whatever about this now. You need to be whatever is in the headline now, whatever is is in the headline now, whatever is is in the headline now, whatever is making going viral on social media, you making going viral on social media, you making going viral on social media, you need to be speaking into that now. Where need to be speaking into that now. Where need to be speaking into that now. Where is your line on where you speak into it is your line on where you speak into it is your line on where you speak into it and where you're just like, no, this is and where you're just like, no, this is and where you're just like, no, this is regularly scheduled programming.

regularly scheduled programming. regularly scheduled programming. Yeah, that's a great question and I Yeah, that's a great question and I Yeah, that's a great question and I don't Can I Can I ask you to have me on don't Can I Can I ask you to have me on don't Can I Can I ask you to have me on again in 15 years and see if my answer again in 15 years and see if my answer again in 15 years and see if my answer then is the same as it is now? then is the same as it is now? then is the same as it is now? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Um Yeah. But you know, because it really Um Yeah. But you know, because it really Um Yeah. But you know, because it really I mean, no less than D. Martin I mean, no less than D. Martin I mean, no less than D. Martin Lloyd-Jones, who was the great, you Lloyd-Jones, who was the great, you Lloyd-Jones, who was the great, you know, the great guy known for expository know, the great guy known for expository know, the great guy known for expository preaching, preaching, preaching, he said that when your congregation is he said that when your congregation is he said that when your congregation is all feeling something and they have that all feeling something and they have that all feeling something and they have that question and you're not addressing it, question and you're not addressing it, question and you're not addressing it, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> you know, then then then you just appear >> you know, then then then you just appear >> you know, then then then you just appear tone-deaf and you feel like you're not tone-deaf and you feel like you're not tone-deaf and you feel like you're not leading people. That is very true. leading people. That is very true. leading people. That is very true. You know, there's uh one of my my You know, there's uh one of my my You know, there's uh one of my my favorite insights that shapes me as a favorite insights that shapes me as a favorite insights that shapes me as a preacher is Matthew 28 when Jesus gives preacher is Matthew 28 when Jesus gives preacher is Matthew 28 when Jesus gives the Great Commission. the Great Commission. the Great Commission. He said that uh you know, the only verb He said that uh you know, the only verb He said that uh you know, the only verb he uses in the Great Commission is he uses in the Great Commission is he uses in the Great Commission is disciple maker. Like be a you know, make disciple maker. Like be a you know, make disciple maker. Like be a you know, make disciples. Everything else in that that disciples. Everything else in that that disciples. Everything else in that that verse construction that looks like a verse construction that looks like a verse construction that looks like a verb to us is actually a participle, verb to us is actually a participle, verb to us is actually a participle, which means it you know, it's it's which means it you know, it's it's which means it you know, it's it's organized by the Great Commission. organized by the Great Commission. organized by the Great Commission. >> isn't it? Is that right? Yeah, that's >> isn't it? Is that right? Yeah, that's >> isn't it? Is that right? Yeah, that's right. Go when Yeah, that's right. As right. Go when Yeah, that's right. As right. Go when Yeah, that's right. As you're going and baptizing and teaching you're going and baptizing and teaching you're going and baptizing and teaching them to observe all things. And And And them to observe all things. And And And them to observe all things. And And And what scholars say that means is that the what scholars say that means is that the what scholars say that means is that the central organizing principle of all that central organizing principle of all that central organizing principle of all that Jesus commissioned of is disciple Jesus commissioned of is disciple Jesus commissioned of is disciple making, which means in my preaching, my making, which means in my preaching, my making, which means in my preaching, my point is not just working my way through point is not just working my way through point is not just working my way through 66 books of the Bible, but I'm actually 66 books of the Bible, but I'm actually 66 books of the Bible, but I'm actually disciple making and the 66 books of the disciple making and the 66 books of the disciple making and the 66 books of the Bible are the criteria that I'm I'm I'm Bible are the criteria that I'm I'm I'm Bible are the criteria that I'm I'm I'm making disciples. And I know that may making disciples. And I know that may making disciples. And I know that may sound like a distinction without a sound like a distinction without a sound like a distinction without a difference, but it just means that my difference, but it just means that my difference, but it just means that my angle on how I'm preaching is actually angle on how I'm preaching is actually angle on how I'm preaching is actually formed by what's making the best formed by what's making the best formed by what's making the best disciple and not just what's the next disciple and not just what's the next disciple and not just what's the next verse in this chapter.

verse in this chapter. verse in this chapter. So, that's kind of one side of the So, that's kind of one side of the So, that's kind of one side of the equation for me. equation for me. equation for me. Um what How do I meet people where they Um what How do I meet people where they Um what How do I meet people where they are and how do I use this as a are and how do I use this as a are and how do I use this as a discipleship moment? At the the same discipleship moment? At the the same discipleship moment? At the the same time, I'm like, well, one of the values time, I'm like, well, one of the values time, I'm like, well, one of the values of expository preaching where you're of expository preaching where you're of expository preaching where you're just kind of systematically, at least just kind of systematically, at least just kind of systematically, at least for a large portion of your preaching for a large portion of your preaching for a large portion of your preaching calendar, working through the the calendar, working through the the calendar, working through the the scriptures is you're letting God scriptures is you're letting God scriptures is you're letting God determine what the people want and it's determine what the people want and it's determine what the people want and it's keeping you from getting on to two or keeping you from getting on to two or keeping you from getting on to two or three hobby horses that end up being the three hobby horses that end up being the three hobby horses that end up being the things that you talk about. Um John things that you talk about. Um John things that you talk about. Um John Stott wrote a book um called The Stott wrote a book um called The Stott wrote a book um called The Preacher's Portrait Preacher's Portrait Preacher's Portrait where he talked about one of the the where he talked about one of the the where he talked about one of the the biblical words that's used for the biblical words that's used for the biblical words that's used for the preacher is steward. preacher is steward. preacher is steward. And the word steward is um it's a you And the word steward is um it's a you And the word steward is um it's a you know, the the the Greek for this know, the the the Greek for this know, the the the Greek for this household servant household servant household servant who managed the affairs of a a wealthy who managed the affairs of a a wealthy who managed the affairs of a a wealthy person's house. And And And And Stott person's house. And And And And Stott person's house. And And And And Stott pointed out the wealthy person, the the pointed out the wealthy person, the the pointed out the wealthy person, the the owner, the the father, he's the one that owner, the the father, he's the one that owner, the the father, he's the one that determines what the kids eat and all determines what the kids eat and all determines what the kids eat and all these things, but the steward is the one these things, but the steward is the one these things, but the steward is the one that arranges it for the kids. And he that arranges it for the kids. And he that arranges it for the kids. And he said, so the steward doesn't just go to said, so the steward doesn't just go to said, so the steward doesn't just go to the, you know, the pantry and just take the, you know, the pantry and just take the, you know, the pantry and just take it out and order, you know, green beans, it out and order, you know, green beans, it out and order, you know, green beans, green beans, green beans, green beans, green beans, green beans, green beans, green beans, green beans, green beans, onions, onions, onions. You just You put onions, onions, onions. You just You put onions, onions, onions. You just You put together a meal. And he said, as as a together a meal. And he said, as as a together a meal. And he said, as as a steward of God's word, I'm responsible steward of God's word, I'm responsible steward of God's word, I'm responsible for whatever God himself put into the for whatever God himself put into the for whatever God himself put into the pantry. But I'm I'm doing it through the pantry. But I'm I'm doing it through the pantry. But I'm I'm doing it through the lens of how do I make disciples and lens of how do I make disciples and lens of how do I make disciples and pastor people? And so, this is the most pastor people? And so, this is the most pastor people? And so, this is the most eloquent non-answer you've ever eloquent non-answer you've ever eloquent non-answer you've ever received.

received. received. But what I'm trying to say is is I think But what I'm trying to say is is I think But what I'm trying to say is is I think it really is like a tension point where it really is like a tension point where it really is like a tension point where you have both. you have both. you have both. >> a tension. Where disciple making and >> a tension. Where disciple making and >> a tension. Where disciple making and pastoring is on one side and preaching pastoring is on one side and preaching pastoring is on one side and preaching the whole counsel of God, realizing that the whole counsel of God, realizing that the whole counsel of God, realizing that God is the one who stocked the pantry God is the one who stocked the pantry God is the one who stocked the pantry and this is what he wants to know. I'm and this is what he wants to know. I'm and this is what he wants to know. I'm doing that. It works out probably Carey doing that. It works out probably Carey doing that. It works out probably Carey where I'd say 75% where I'd say 75% where I'd say 75% Let's say 70% of our programming is just Let's say 70% of our programming is just Let's say 70% of our programming is just working our way through the Bible. working our way through the Bible. working our way through the Bible. 20% 20% 20% is going to be um the things that God's is going to be um the things that God's is going to be um the things that God's putting on me and other elders' hearts putting on me and other elders' hearts putting on me and other elders' hearts for the church to know that's going to for the church to know that's going to for the church to know that's going to be more topical. And then 10% is going be more topical. And then 10% is going be more topical. And then 10% is going to be responding to the moment, whether to be responding to the moment, whether to be responding to the moment, whether it's a tragedy, you know, in in our in it's a tragedy, you know, in in our in it's a tragedy, you know, in in our in our our community or whether it's even a our our community or whether it's even a our our community or whether it's even a holiday that you're saying, hey, this is holiday that you're saying, hey, this is holiday that you're saying, hey, this is what everybody's thinking about, let's what everybody's thinking about, let's what everybody's thinking about, let's talk about it. talk about it. talk about it. You know, it's interesting, there's sort You know, it's interesting, there's sort You know, it's interesting, there's sort of three categories and I I did actually of three categories and I I did actually of three categories and I I did actually find your your your answer helpful and find your your your answer helpful and find your your your answer helpful and clarifying. clarifying. clarifying. But I I like what you said and I think But I I like what you said and I think But I I like what you said and I think you were quoting Martin Lloyd you were quoting Martin Lloyd you were quoting Martin Lloyd Lloyd-Jones that there are times where Lloyd-Jones that there are times where Lloyd-Jones that there are times where your congregation is feeling something your congregation is feeling something your congregation is feeling something and it would be tone-deaf not to address and it would be tone-deaf not to address and it would be tone-deaf not to address it. And that could be local, it could be it. And that could be local, it could be it. And that could be local, it could be a hurricane, it could be, you know, a hurricane, it could be, you know, a hurricane, it could be, you know, something like that. Or it could be a something like that. Or it could be a something like that. Or it could be a national tragedy national tragedy national tragedy where it would be irresponsible and where it would be irresponsible and where it would be irresponsible and tone-deaf. So, there's what your church tone-deaf. So, there's what your church tone-deaf. So, there's what your church is feeling, but I also see two other is feeling, but I also see two other is feeling, but I also see two other things. There's sort of things. There's sort of things. There's sort of what And this is where I think we get what And this is where I think we get what And this is where I think we get into trouble. Maybe if we're looking at into trouble. Maybe if we're looking at into trouble. Maybe if we're looking at a trip line for when do you depart from a trip line for when do you depart from a trip line for when do you depart from regularly scheduled programming? And I'm regularly scheduled programming? And I'm regularly scheduled programming? And I'm just testing this out, so see what you just testing this out, so see what you just testing this out, so see what you think and I love your honest reaction.

think and I love your honest reaction. think and I love your honest reaction. So, there's your congregation's really So, there's your congregation's really So, there's your congregation's really feeling this, you have to go there. feeling this, you have to go there. feeling this, you have to go there. Sometimes you're really feeling it as a Sometimes you're really feeling it as a Sometimes you're really feeling it as a pastor. Mhm. pastor. Mhm. pastor. Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Where and that could be political or >> Where and that could be political or >> Where and that could be political or that could be um you know, we just got that could be um you know, we just got that could be um you know, we just got to talk about the end times to pick on a to talk about the end times to pick on a to talk about the end times to pick on a subject we just raised or whatever that subject we just raised or whatever that subject we just raised or whatever that happens to be. happens to be. happens to be. And that you really have to be careful And that you really have to be careful And that you really have to be careful of because it can easily devolve into of because it can easily devolve into of because it can easily devolve into the third category, which is this is the third category, which is this is the third category, which is this is what I think you should be feeling. what I think you should be feeling. what I think you should be feeling. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. >> Right. Where like, hey, you guys aren't >> Right. Where like, hey, you guys aren't >> Right. Where like, hey, you guys aren't taking this and that you get into hobby taking this and that you get into hobby taking this and that you get into hobby horses, a phrase you used, if it's horses, a phrase you used, if it's horses, a phrase you used, if it's you're always veering because this is you're always veering because this is you're always veering because this is what I want to talk about. Or this is what I want to talk about. Or this is what I want to talk about. Or this is what I think you should be feeling and what I think you should be feeling and what I think you should be feeling and you guys aren't feeling this right and you guys aren't feeling this right and you guys aren't feeling this right and la-la-la. Hey, if you're doing the la-la-la. Hey, if you're doing the la-la-la. Hey, if you're doing the gospel, like you're you're you're crying gospel, like you're you're you're crying gospel, like you're you're you're crying for your lost friends, sure. Go ahead for your lost friends, sure. Go ahead for your lost friends, sure. Go ahead and take that on. Right. But if it's a and take that on. Right. But if it's a and take that on. Right. But if it's a culture issue, does that make sense, culture issue, does that make sense, culture issue, does that make sense, those three categories? Yeah. those three categories? Yeah. those three categories? Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, feel free to disagree or >> Yeah, yeah, feel free to disagree or >> Yeah, yeah, feel free to disagree or nuance. nuance. nuance. >> No, I actually think it's very well put >> No, I actually think it's very well put >> No, I actually think it's very well put and that's some categories to kind of and that's some categories to kind of and that's some categories to kind of like think out of because like think out of because like think out of because you know, the part of that that desire you know, the part of that that desire you know, the part of that that desire for that deep listening. Yeah.

for that deep listening. Yeah. for that deep listening. Yeah. >> And again, I'll use the racial one. You >> And again, I'll use the racial one. You >> And again, I'll use the racial one. You you know, when when we went through you know, when when we went through you know, when when we went through 2020, there was a set of questions that 2020, there was a set of questions that 2020, there was a set of questions that I just honestly wasn't feeling because I just honestly wasn't feeling because I just honestly wasn't feeling because it's just you know, a white guy in the it's just you know, a white guy in the it's just you know, a white guy in the South, I I wasn't asking those. South, I I wasn't asking those. South, I I wasn't asking those. And um you know, I I had our members And um you know, I I had our members And um you know, I I had our members like, why are we even addressing any of like, why are we even addressing any of like, why are we even addressing any of this stuff? Like nobody's I want to come this stuff? Like nobody's I want to come this stuff? Like nobody's I want to come to church to escape. to church to escape. to church to escape. And I was like, well, just realize that And I was like, well, just realize that And I was like, well, just realize that there are other people that this is so there are other people that this is so there are other people that this is so heavy on their heart, it it's weird for heavy on their heart, it it's weird for heavy on their heart, it it's weird for them not to to have that talked about in them not to to have that talked about in them not to to have that talked about in their family of faith. their family of faith. their family of faith. And it's a little bit of a judgment And it's a little bit of a judgment And it's a little bit of a judgment call. That's why you need a lot of call. That's why you need a lot of call. That's why you need a lot of elders there. I would I would just put a elders there. I would I would just put a elders there. I would I would just put a big, you know, huge exclamation point on big, you know, huge exclamation point on big, you know, huge exclamation point on the whole um just because it's in the the whole um just because it's in the the whole um just because it's in the pastor's heart doesn't mean it's what pastor's heart doesn't mean it's what pastor's heart doesn't mean it's what God wants for his his people. That might God wants for his his people. That might God wants for his his people. That might just be for me and that might be just be for me and that might be just be for me and that might be something I need to to do. And so, when something I need to to do. And so, when something I need to to do. And so, when in doubt, I kind of almost look at it in doubt, I kind of almost look at it in doubt, I kind of almost look at it like, when in doubt, stick to working like, when in doubt, stick to working like, when in doubt, stick to working your way through the Bible and let the your way through the Bible and let the your way through the Bible and let the Holy Spirit kind of demonstrate through Holy Spirit kind of demonstrate through Holy Spirit kind of demonstrate through the counsel of others and your own the counsel of others and your own the counsel of others and your own spirit, hey, I got something here and we spirit, hey, I got something here and we spirit, hey, I got something here and we need to actually lean into this. Let the need to actually lean into this. Let the need to actually lean into this. Let the burden of proof be on you to to go go burden of proof be on you to to go go burden of proof be on you to to go go that direction than to than to just stay that direction than to than to just stay that direction than to than to just stay working your way through through God's working your way through through God's working your way through through God's word. You say something in your new book word. You say something in your new book word. You say something in your new book that I think vast majority of people that I think vast majority of people that I think vast majority of people would agree with. I can actually think would agree with. I can actually think would agree with. I can actually think of some people who would disagree with of some people who would disagree with of some people who would disagree with this, but I would be one who agrees with this, but I would be one who agrees with this, but I would be one who agrees with you.

you. you. And that is that you shouldn't try to And that is that you shouldn't try to And that is that you shouldn't try to make your church the Democrat church or make your church the Democrat church or make your church the Democrat church or the Republican church. You just the Republican church. You just the Republican church. You just shouldn't do that, right? Where shouldn't do that, right? Where shouldn't do that, right? Where >> one side of the aisle is welcome here, >> one side of the aisle is welcome here, >> one side of the aisle is welcome here, but the other isn't. And you can look at but the other isn't. And you can look at but the other isn't. And you can look at the evangelical church swinging to the the evangelical church swinging to the the evangelical church swinging to the right, the mainline church swinging to right, the mainline church swinging to right, the mainline church swinging to the left. You know, in the '60s, it was the left. You know, in the '60s, it was the left. You know, in the '60s, it was mixed. Yeah. You would get a lot of mixed. Yeah. You would get a lot of mixed. Yeah. You would get a lot of Republicans and Democrats on both sides Republicans and Democrats on both sides Republicans and Democrats on both sides of the evangelical mainline thing, but of the evangelical mainline thing, but of the evangelical mainline thing, but it's it's it's like everything else, polarized. Anyway, like everything else, polarized. Anyway, like everything else, polarized. Anyway, um um um a a couple of cross like concrete a a couple of cross like concrete a a couple of cross like concrete examples examples examples where you're just like, yeah, we're where you're just like, yeah, we're where you're just like, yeah, we're probably not going to go there or we probably not going to go there or we probably not going to go there or we haven't gone there to date. Just so that haven't gone there to date. Just so that haven't gone there to date. Just so that we have a little more of an anchoring we have a little more of an anchoring we have a little more of an anchoring in you know, things that you think are in you know, things that you think are in you know, things that you think are faithful to talk about and not talk faithful to talk about and not talk faithful to talk about and not talk about. about. about. Yeah, so um Yeah, so um Yeah, so um I already gave you a little bit of the I already gave you a little bit of the I already gave you a little bit of the criteria early on in our our talk here criteria early on in our our talk here criteria early on in our our talk here about the dotted line versus the direct about the dotted line versus the direct about the dotted line versus the direct line. Anytime there's a direct line line. Anytime there's a direct line line. Anytime there's a direct line >> a dotted line for you? So a dotted line >> a dotted line for you? So a dotted line >> a dotted line for you? So a dotted line I mentioned, you know, I mentioned, you know, I mentioned, you know, what's the right posture toward what's the right posture toward what's the right posture toward immigrants um in our country. We know immigrants um in our country. We know immigrants um in our country. We know the right posture is humane. They are the right posture is humane. They are the right posture is humane. They are people made in the image of God. They people made in the image of God. They people made in the image of God. They are worthy of respect and dignity.

are worthy of respect and dignity. are worthy of respect and dignity. Um but what is the posture toward how Um but what is the posture toward how Um but what is the posture toward how many immigrants should a compassionate many immigrants should a compassionate many immigrants should a compassionate country let in? Uh what do you do about country let in? Uh what do you do about country let in? Uh what do you do about the rule of law? What do you do about the rule of law? What do you do about the rule of law? What do you do about people who have broken the law on that? people who have broken the law on that? people who have broken the law on that? Um there can be Christians who are Um there can be Christians who are Um there can be Christians who are motivated in similar ways by love of motivated in similar ways by love of motivated in similar ways by love of love of the glory of God and the image love of the glory of God and the image love of the glory of God and the image of God and also uh you know, see certain of God and also uh you know, see certain of God and also uh you know, see certain justice questions differently and and I justice questions differently and and I justice questions differently and and I want to I can have my perspective on it, want to I can have my perspective on it, want to I can have my perspective on it, but that's not one where I say thus says but that's not one where I say thus says but that's not one where I say thus says the Lord or even thus thinks JD. I I'm the Lord or even thus thinks JD. I I'm the Lord or even thus thinks JD. I I'm very zealous very zealous very zealous about our pulpit about our pulpit about our pulpit to be a place where people can depend on to be a place where people can depend on to be a place where people can depend on that being thus says the Lord and not that being thus says the Lord and not that being thus says the Lord and not thus thinketh JD. thus thinketh JD. thus thinketh JD. And you know, there are a lot of things And you know, there are a lot of things And you know, there are a lot of things that I would, you know, have to even in that I would, you know, have to even in that I would, you know, have to even in perhaps even in this conversation, a perhaps even in this conversation, a perhaps even in this conversation, a live conversation where I'm like, "Hey, live conversation where I'm like, "Hey, live conversation where I'm like, "Hey, we're not I'm not in the pulpit and we're not I'm not in the pulpit and we're not I'm not in the pulpit and Carey and I are just talking about an Carey and I are just talking about an Carey and I are just talking about an issue and I'm I'm I can be a little bit issue and I'm I'm I can be a little bit issue and I'm I'm I can be a little bit more forthcoming with my opinion, but more forthcoming with my opinion, but more forthcoming with my opinion, but when I when I when I >> Well, in the same way, I have a lot of >> Well, in the same way, I have a lot of >> Well, in the same way, I have a lot of thoughts on a lot of issues, but there thoughts on a lot of issues, but there thoughts on a lot of issues, but there are very few things I'm going to speak are very few things I'm going to speak are very few things I'm going to speak out publicly on. Yes, right. And so, you out publicly on. Yes, right. And so, you out publicly on. Yes, right. And so, you know, and I'm behind that pulpit, you know, and I'm behind that pulpit, you know, and I'm behind that pulpit, you know, one of the ways I kind of say it a know, one of the ways I kind of say it a know, one of the ways I kind of say it a little bit tongue-in-cheek to our little bit tongue-in-cheek to our little bit tongue-in-cheek to our congregation is I might be wrong in my congregation is I might be wrong in my congregation is I might be wrong in my perspective on global warming, but I am perspective on global warming, but I am perspective on global warming, but I am not wrong about the gospel.

not wrong about the gospel. not wrong about the gospel. And I don't want my perspective on the And I don't want my perspective on the And I don't want my perspective on the former to keep people from hearing me on former to keep people from hearing me on former to keep people from hearing me on on the latter. Even if I think that on the latter. Even if I think that on the latter. Even if I think that their perspective is wrong. You know, their perspective is wrong. You know, their perspective is wrong. You know, when um I've got, you know, friends who when um I've got, you know, friends who when um I've got, you know, friends who the way they approach whether it's the the way they approach whether it's the the way they approach whether it's the regulation of business or nationalized regulation of business or nationalized regulation of business or nationalized health care and I'm I don't know, Carey, health care and I'm I don't know, Carey, health care and I'm I don't know, Carey, you're Canadian. Maybe we would disagree you're Canadian. Maybe we would disagree you're Canadian. Maybe we would disagree on that if we talked about it long on that if we talked about it long on that if we talked about it long enough. Both systems have problems, let enough. Both systems have problems, let enough. Both systems have problems, let me tell you. me tell you. me tell you. >> well, but you know, we we we come down >> well, but you know, we we we come down >> well, but you know, we we we come down to I'd say, you know, that's and and and to I'd say, you know, that's and and and to I'd say, you know, that's and and and men we could one night over a campfire men we could one night over a campfire men we could one night over a campfire we could just have it out if we we could just have it out if we we could just have it out if we disagreed on it. Um but I wouldn't want disagreed on it. Um but I wouldn't want disagreed on it. Um but I wouldn't want somebody in a to feel like that was a a somebody in a to feel like that was a a somebody in a to feel like that was a a test of faith or that that somehow this test of faith or that that somehow this test of faith or that that somehow this is a gospel an issue that that you're is a gospel an issue that that you're is a gospel an issue that that you're not welcome to fellowship with the not welcome to fellowship with the not welcome to fellowship with the church and I see that I see a couple of church and I see that I see a couple of church and I see that I see a couple of biblical examples um on that that are biblical examples um on that that are biblical examples um on that that are really important. Um I mention them real really important. Um I mention them real really important. Um I mention them real quick. One's Romans 14 quick. One's Romans 14 quick. One's Romans 14 where Paul is talking about what to us where Paul is talking about what to us where Paul is talking about what to us feels like a very pedestrian issue. I feels like a very pedestrian issue. I feels like a very pedestrian issue. I mean, eating meat and mean, eating meat and mean, eating meat and >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> but for them it was emotionally charged >> but for them it was emotionally charged >> but for them it was emotionally charged with layers and layers of cultural and with layers and layers of cultural and with layers and layers of cultural and spiritual baggage. Oh, that was spiritual baggage. Oh, that was spiritual baggage. Oh, that was spiritual, not just cultural. It was spiritual, not just cultural. It was spiritual, not just cultural. It was like, "Whoa, that was sacrificed to like, "Whoa, that was sacrificed to like, "Whoa, that was sacrificed to idols." And Right. And Paul, you know, idols." And Right. And Paul, you know, idols." And Right. And Paul, you know, it's funny if you read it. I mean, it's funny if you read it. I mean, it's funny if you read it. I mean, at least humorous where Paul he's not at least humorous where Paul he's not at least humorous where Paul he's not shy about telling you what what his shy about telling you what what his shy about telling you what what his opinion is. Cuz he actually he makes it opinion is. Cuz he actually he makes it opinion is. Cuz he actually he makes it pretty clear, "I'm on team meat eater."

pretty clear, "I'm on team meat eater." pretty clear, "I'm on team meat eater." And he says, you know, those who And he says, you know, those who And he says, you know, those who disagree with me are weak in the faith. disagree with me are weak in the faith. disagree with me are weak in the faith. Like so he's not like shielding what he Like so he's not like shielding what he Like so he's not like shielding what he really thinks. It is true. So so he's he really thinks. It is true. So so he's he really thinks. It is true. So so he's he said, "But said, "But said, "But but I'm not going to let that become an but I'm not going to let that become an but I'm not going to let that become an issue that divides this and if I've got issue that divides this and if I've got issue that divides this and if I've got to actually tone down my freedom in to actually tone down my freedom in to actually tone down my freedom in Christ and even teaching on this at the Christ and even teaching on this at the Christ and even teaching on this at the moment moment moment then then this is what I'll what I'll then then this is what I'll what I'll then then this is what I'll what I'll do." Or or I use one more on this one. do." Or or I use one more on this one. do." Or or I use one more on this one. Acts 15. Acts 15. Acts 15. Acts 15 you've got um Acts 15 you've got um Acts 15 you've got um you know, the the church comes together you know, the the church comes together you know, the the church comes together cuz they're divided on this. You cuz they're divided on this. You cuz they're divided on this. You basically got a Jewish and Gentile basically got a Jewish and Gentile basically got a Jewish and Gentile flight. If the church is led by a flight. If the church is led by a flight. If the church is led by a Gentile, you get Jewish flight and Gentile, you get Jewish flight and Gentile, you get Jewish flight and vice versa. And so vice versa. And so vice versa. And so they come together and um you know, you they come together and um you know, you they come together and um you know, you see we read over this so many times, see we read over this so many times, see we read over this so many times, Carey, that we we almost lose how Carey, that we we almost lose how Carey, that we we almost lose how bizarre the solution they came up with bizarre the solution they came up with bizarre the solution they came up with was. Which is like, "Okay. All right, no was. Which is like, "Okay. All right, no was. Which is like, "Okay. All right, no more prostitutes." Which I I feel like more prostitutes." Which I I feel like more prostitutes." Which I I feel like that's pretty, you know, that's pretty, you know, that's pretty, you know, straightforward. Probably no more idols. straightforward. Probably no more idols. straightforward. Probably no more idols. You know, okay, we're all on the same You know, okay, we're all on the same You know, okay, we're all on the same page there. And don't eat anything page there. And don't eat anything page there. And don't eat anything that's strangled. that's strangled. that's strangled. And you're like, "Wait, well, what?" And you're like, "Wait, well, what?" And you're like, "Wait, well, what?" Like of all the things that you're going Like of all the things that you're going Like of all the things that you're going to say, that one had to And what to say, that one had to And what to say, that one had to And what scholars say is that um that was so scholars say is that um that was so scholars say is that um that was so offensive culturally to the Jews to eat offensive culturally to the Jews to eat offensive culturally to the Jews to eat something that had died that way cuz it something that had died that way cuz it something that had died that way cuz it meant all the blood was still in the meant all the blood was still in the meant all the blood was still in the body and body and body and that even though Gentiles were that even though Gentiles were that even though Gentiles were technically free in Christ to eat that technically free in Christ to eat that technically free in Christ to eat that these guys are like, "Hey, just for the these guys are like, "Hey, just for the these guys are like, "Hey, just for the sake of the church, could you not do sake of the church, could you not do sake of the church, could you not do this?" Yeah. Cuz it's it's going to it's this?" Yeah. Cuz it's it's going to it's this?" Yeah. Cuz it's it's going to it's going to cause division and they were going to cause division and they were going to cause division and they were asking them to do what Paul basically asking them to do what Paul basically asking them to do what Paul basically did in Romans 14, which is not to change did in Romans 14, which is not to change did in Romans 14, which is not to change their convictions, but to their convictions, but to their convictions, but to to not to not necessarily lead and and to not to not necessarily lead and and to not to not necessarily lead and and and put that forward. There's a phrase,

and put that forward. There's a phrase, and put that forward. There's a phrase, Carey, that um Carey, that um Carey, that um that James uses in that story that I that James uses in that story that I that James uses in that story that I wish that I could I wish that I could wish that I could I wish that I could wish that I could I wish that I could blast it over every pulpit in America blast it over every pulpit in America blast it over every pulpit in America and every one of our Facebook pages and and every one of our Facebook pages and and every one of our Facebook pages and Instagram thing. Instagram thing. Instagram thing. You should not make it hard for Gentiles You should not make it hard for Gentiles You should not make it hard for Gentiles who are turning to God. Such a great who are turning to God. Such a great who are turning to God. Such a great verse. And I want to say you should not verse. And I want to say you should not verse. And I want to say you should not make it hard for black seekers and white make it hard for black seekers and white make it hard for black seekers and white seekers and brown seekers and seekers and brown seekers and seekers and brown seekers and Republicans and Democrats. Yeah, you got Republicans and Democrats. Yeah, you got Republicans and Democrats. Yeah, you got to teach the full counsel of God. You to teach the full counsel of God. You to teach the full counsel of God. You got to say no prostitutes and no idol got to say no prostitutes and no idol got to say no prostitutes and no idol whatever that is in our in our culture. whatever that is in our in our culture. whatever that is in our in our culture. But you but you also don't make it hard But you but you also don't make it hard But you but you also don't make it hard for somebody because you're asking them for somebody because you're asking them for somebody because you're asking them to go to another level where you're to go to another level where you're to go to another level where you're like, "Here's how I apply this when it like, "Here's how I apply this when it like, "Here's how I apply this when it comes to health care and immigration and comes to health care and immigration and comes to health care and immigration and all that stuff." And and then when you all that stuff." And and then when you all that stuff." And and then when you attach a a um a ideological label to it attach a a um a ideological label to it attach a a um a ideological label to it like Republican or Democrat you become like Republican or Democrat you become like Republican or Democrat you become is something where you've just made it is something where you've just made it is something where you've just made it really difficult. I tell you one you ask really difficult. I tell you one you ask really difficult. I tell you one you ask for concrete examples, there's one story for concrete examples, there's one story for concrete examples, there's one story and I tell this in the book. There was a and I tell this in the book. There was a and I tell this in the book. There was a um um um uh there I I I was I said something on uh there I I I was I said something on uh there I I I was I said something on on Twitter or X about um being pro-life.

on Twitter or X about um being pro-life. on Twitter or X about um being pro-life. And I say that on a regular basis and And I say that on a regular basis and And I say that on a regular basis and I've no problems with it. You know, I'm I've no problems with it. You know, I'm I've no problems with it. You know, I'm pro-life, this is what the Bible pro-life, this is what the Bible pro-life, this is what the Bible teaches. teaches. teaches. Well, Well, Well, a a a she sniped back at me. Carey, I never she sniped back at me. Carey, I never she sniped back at me. Carey, I never respond on Twitter to anybody. I mean, I respond on Twitter to anybody. I mean, I respond on Twitter to anybody. I mean, I just, you know, just in general. I try just, you know, just in general. I try just, you know, just in general. I try it once a year and instantly regret it. it once a year and instantly regret it. it once a year and instantly regret it. And instantly I'm back to my my original And instantly I'm back to my my original And instantly I'm back to my my original thing. But I don't know, for whatever thing. But I don't know, for whatever thing. But I don't know, for whatever reason reason reason I just I did. I responded back and I I just I did. I responded back and I I just I did. I responded back and I said something and it was a little said something and it was a little said something and it was a little chippy, but you know, I I tried to be chippy, but you know, I I tried to be chippy, but you know, I I tried to be gracious and clear and gracious and clear and gracious and clear and the little interaction died down. Um the little interaction died down. Um the little interaction died down. Um well, I get a uh I get a letter a few well, I get a uh I get a letter a few well, I get a uh I get a letter a few months later. It's a picture of a girl months later. It's a picture of a girl months later. It's a picture of a girl I've never seen before in our church. I've never seen before in our church. I've never seen before in our church. And she's got a picture of her being And she's got a picture of her being And she's got a picture of her being baptized. By the way, I remembered her baptized. By the way, I remembered her baptized. By the way, I remembered her handle that this girl went back and handle that this girl went back and handle that this girl went back and forth with. Her Her name was something forth with. Her Her name was something forth with. Her Her name was something like Left Linda, you know, or something. like Left Linda, you know, or something. like Left Linda, you know, or something. Whatever. She identified pretty clearly Whatever. She identified pretty clearly Whatever. She identified pretty clearly what she was. what she was. what she was. Um picture and she the opening part of Um picture and she the opening part of Um picture and she the opening part of the letter with a picture of her being the letter with a picture of her being the letter with a picture of her being baptized and she basically said, "I was baptized and she basically said, "I was baptized and she basically said, "I was Left Linda." Left Linda." Left Linda." And she said I I moved here from West And she said I I moved here from West And she said I I moved here from West the West Coast. Some friends of mine the West Coast. Some friends of mine the West Coast. Some friends of mine invited me to come to the church. She invited me to come to the church. She invited me to come to the church. She said immediately I was offended by what said immediately I was offended by what said immediately I was offended by what your church taught on various, you know, your church taught on various, you know, your church taught on various, you know, controversial issues that controversial issues that controversial issues that you know, homosexuality and that all you know, homosexuality and that all you know, homosexuality and that all that kind of stuff. And she said um but that kind of stuff. And she said um but that kind of stuff. And she said um but I kept coming I kept coming I kept coming and she said I was the one that sniped and she said I was the one that sniped and she said I was the one that sniped at you. And she said um to make a long at you. And she said um to make a long at you. And she said um to make a long story short, God got a hold of my heart story short, God got a hold of my heart story short, God got a hold of my heart and changed me and and I've become a and changed me and and I've become a and changed me and and I've become a Christian. Wow.

Christian. Wow. Christian. Wow. >> Now, she's in the process of rethinking >> Now, she's in the process of rethinking >> Now, she's in the process of rethinking everything, right? You know, she and she everything, right? You know, she and she everything, right? You know, she and she kind of acknowledged that, but she said, kind of acknowledged that, but she said, kind of acknowledged that, but she said, "I want to thank you that even though "I want to thank you that even though "I want to thank you that even though you were committed to teaching hard you were committed to teaching hard you were committed to teaching hard truths, I want to thank you that you truths, I want to thank you that you truths, I want to thank you that you didn't make this the Republican church. didn't make this the Republican church. didn't make this the Republican church. Because if you had, she said, "I know I Because if you had, she said, "I know I Because if you had, she said, "I know I never could have stepped foot in there." never could have stepped foot in there." never could have stepped foot in there." Wow. And so it it felt to me like a Wow. And so it it felt to me like a Wow. And so it it felt to me like a right affirmation of a balance, which right affirmation of a balance, which right affirmation of a balance, which was hard truth was hard truth was hard truth you know, controversial truth, but still you know, controversial truth, but still you know, controversial truth, but still avoiding a label that would have created avoiding a label that would have created avoiding a label that would have created a barrier and made it hard for her to a barrier and made it hard for her to a barrier and made it hard for her to you know, to to to turn to God. And I I you know, to to to turn to God. And I I you know, to to to turn to God. And I I you know, I realize that that that, you you know, I realize that that that, you you know, I realize that that that, you know, Abraham Kuyper's famous words that know, Abraham Kuyper's famous words that know, Abraham Kuyper's famous words that there's not one square inch in the there's not one square inch in the there's not one square inch in the entire cosmos over which Jesus doesn't entire cosmos over which Jesus doesn't entire cosmos over which Jesus doesn't declare mine. When somebody becomes a declare mine. When somebody becomes a declare mine. When somebody becomes a Christian, it will affect every level of Christian, it will affect every level of Christian, it will affect every level of their politics um or every level of their politics um or every level of their politics um or every level of their life. But those things are the their life. But those things are the their life. But those things are the result of discipleship. They shouldn't result of discipleship. They shouldn't result of discipleship. They shouldn't be the prerequisite for or the barrier be the prerequisite for or the barrier be the prerequisite for or the barrier to discipleship. We want to make the to discipleship. We want to make the to discipleship. We want to make the issue the the lordship of Jesus and the issue the the lordship of Jesus and the issue the the lordship of Jesus and the gospel and that's I want to use every gospel and that's I want to use every gospel and that's I want to use every ounce of my bandwidth to put that ounce of my bandwidth to put that ounce of my bandwidth to put that forward. Um put that forward and then forward. Um put that forward and then forward. Um put that forward and then call people to a life of discipleship call people to a life of discipleship call people to a life of discipleship and not create barriers that keep them and not create barriers that keep them and not create barriers that keep them um keep them out. Today's episode is um keep them out. Today's episode is um keep them out. Today's episode is brought to you by The Aspen Group. Hey brought to you by The Aspen Group. Hey brought to you by The Aspen Group. Hey everyone, you know, Christmas is almost everyone, you know, Christmas is almost everyone, you know, Christmas is almost here and that means your church is about here and that means your church is about here and that means your church is about to see an increase in attendance and to see an increase in attendance and to see an increase in attendance and lots of first-time guests walking lots of first-time guests walking lots of first-time guests walking through your doors. Most pastors focus through your doors. Most pastors focus through your doors. Most pastors focus on the practical experience of their on the practical experience of their on the practical experience of their buildings like parking or navigation, buildings like parking or navigation, buildings like parking or navigation, but what often gets overlooked is the

but what often gets overlooked is the but what often gets overlooked is the formational impact. Reality is your formational impact. Reality is your formational impact. Reality is your building is shaping people's experience building is shaping people's experience building is shaping people's experience of ministry. It's either working for of ministry. It's either working for of ministry. It's either working for your mission or it's working against your mission or it's working against your mission or it's working against your mission and that's where Aspen your mission and that's where Aspen your mission and that's where Aspen Group comes in. Aspen Group helps Group comes in. Aspen Group helps Group comes in. Aspen Group helps churches steward their resources to churches steward their resources to churches steward their resources to create spaces that enhance mission, create spaces that enhance mission, create spaces that enhance mission, elevate growth, and establish longevity. elevate growth, and establish longevity. elevate growth, and establish longevity. Walking with you every step of the way Walking with you every step of the way Walking with you every step of the way from the first idea to your final build. from the first idea to your final build. from the first idea to your final build. You may not be renovating before You may not be renovating before You may not be renovating before Christmas, but now is the perfect time Christmas, but now is the perfect time Christmas, but now is the perfect time to start dreaming and planning for the to start dreaming and planning for the to start dreaming and planning for the future. To learn more about how Aspen future. To learn more about how Aspen future. To learn more about how Aspen Group can help your space better serve Group can help your space better serve Group can help your space better serve your mission visit aspengroup.com/carey. your mission visit aspengroup.com/carey. your mission visit aspengroup.com/carey. That's a s p e n g r o u p.com/ That's a s p e n g r o u p.com/ That's a s p e n g r o u p.com/ c a r e y. c a r e y. c a r e y. You said something that really intrigued You said something that really intrigued You said something that really intrigued me, JD, about I'm I'm going to just call me, JD, about I'm I'm going to just call me, JD, about I'm I'm going to just call it credibility. And it credibility. And it credibility. And you know, if you're always speaking out you know, if you're always speaking out you know, if you're always speaking out on culture war issues and there's always on culture war issues and there's always on culture war issues and there's always a new issue in the culture war, always. a new issue in the culture war, always. a new issue in the culture war, always. But let's say and and and I'm I'm asking But let's say and and and I'm I'm asking But let's say and and and I'm I'm asking this because the vast majority of this because the vast majority of this because the vast majority of pastors I know and I talk to lots and pastors I know and I talk to lots and pastors I know and I talk to lots and lots and lots of pastors are not out on lots and lots of pastors are not out on lots and lots of pastors are not out on the edge of the culture war issue really the edge of the culture war issue really the edge of the culture war issue really preaching the culture not Christ. Okay, preaching the culture not Christ. Okay, preaching the culture not Christ. Okay, there's some out there and they're very there's some out there and they're very there's some out there and they're very they get a lot of traction on social they get a lot of traction on social they get a lot of traction on social media. Vast majority of pastors I know media. Vast majority of pastors I know media. Vast majority of pastors I know are not there. They're trying to find are not there. They're trying to find are not there. They're trying to find what you're trying to find and finding what you're trying to find and finding what you're trying to find and finding it very difficult. But it very difficult. But it very difficult. But you know, just just for motivation, if you know, just just for motivation, if you know, just just for motivation, if if you're always talking about the

if you're always talking about the if you're always talking about the culture and the gospel is sort of yeah, culture and the gospel is sort of yeah, culture and the gospel is sort of yeah, and we can find some evidence for this and we can find some evidence for this and we can find some evidence for this in, you know, um Obadiah. It's not even, in, you know, um Obadiah. It's not even, in, you know, um Obadiah. It's not even, you know, like I think I made that up. you know, like I think I made that up. you know, like I think I made that up. Um you know, we we'll find this Um you know, we we'll find this Um you know, we we'll find this somewhere, then somewhere, then somewhere, then you know, you really undermine your you know, you really undermine your you know, you really undermine your are you saying you undermine your are you saying you undermine your are you saying you undermine your credibility because you're talking about credibility because you're talking about credibility because you're talking about the dotted line issues more than you are the dotted line issues more than you are the dotted line issues more than you are about the solid line issues, the about the solid line issues, the about the solid line issues, the cultural issues more than you are the cultural issues more than you are the cultural issues more than you are the gospel, or you're just using the gospel gospel, or you're just using the gospel gospel, or you're just using the gospel to underscore whatever is happening in to underscore whatever is happening in to underscore whatever is happening in the culture? Like, is that a way to kill the culture? Like, is that a way to kill the culture? Like, is that a way to kill your credibility? your credibility? your credibility? >> So, um D.A. Carson, >> So, um D.A. Carson, >> So, um D.A. Carson, uh the fellow reformed theologian, he uh the fellow reformed theologian, he uh the fellow reformed theologian, he says an error is sometimes truth out of says an error is sometimes truth out of says an error is sometimes truth out of proportion. proportion. proportion. And it means sometimes you can be wrong And it means sometimes you can be wrong And it means sometimes you can be wrong not in what you say, but by what not in what you say, but by what not in what you say, but by what emphasis you put on what syllable, you emphasis you put on what syllable, you emphasis you put on what syllable, you know, it's know, it's know, it's >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> it's what it comes out wrong. >> it's what it comes out wrong. >> it's what it comes out wrong. >> And um I think that when it comes to my >> And um I think that when it comes to my >> And um I think that when it comes to my role as a preacher, that can be true. role as a preacher, that can be true. role as a preacher, that can be true. One of the statements I make in the book One of the statements I make in the book One of the statements I make in the book and we'll try to unpack is you can be and we'll try to unpack is you can be and we'll try to unpack is you can be accurate and fully truthful in accurate and fully truthful in accurate and fully truthful in everything you say and still be everything you say and still be everything you say and still be unfaithful in the mission of Jesus.

unfaithful in the mission of Jesus. unfaithful in the mission of Jesus. Because Jesus's Because Jesus's Because Jesus's Jesus's description that John, the Jesus's description that John, the Jesus's description that John, the Apostle John, gives him is that he was Apostle John, gives him is that he was Apostle John, gives him is that he was filled with grace and truth. Yeah. filled with grace and truth. Yeah. filled with grace and truth. Yeah. Right? Now, filled with truth which Right? Now, filled with truth which Right? Now, filled with truth which means he, you know, in fact he made means he, you know, in fact he made means he, you know, in fact he made people so mad they killed him for it. people so mad they killed him for it. people so mad they killed him for it. But what John put first and what he was But what John put first and what he was But what John put first and what he was also filled with was a grace that made also filled with was a grace that made also filled with was a grace that made sinners want to be close to him. sinners want to be close to him. sinners want to be close to him. And and if we're going to represent And and if we're going to represent And and if we're going to represent Jesus, I think Jesus, I think Jesus, I think that's you're going to have that posture that's you're going to have that posture that's you're going to have that posture of filled with grace and truth and of filled with grace and truth and of filled with grace and truth and that's going to change the way that you that's going to change the way that you that's going to change the way that you preach. It doesn't mean you get soft. It preach. It doesn't mean you get soft. It preach. It doesn't mean you get soft. It doesn't mean that you, you know, doesn't mean that you, you know, doesn't mean that you, you know, everything's fine. Let's talk about everything's fine. Let's talk about everything's fine. Let's talk about rainbows and snuggles and you're a rainbows and snuggles and you're a rainbows and snuggles and you're a Skittle. I don't I don't mean any of Skittle. I don't I don't mean any of Skittle. I don't I don't mean any of that, but it just that, but it just that, but it just you know, there's you know, there's you know, there's what you see is that Jesus, he loved and what you see is that Jesus, he loved and what you see is that Jesus, he loved and had relationships with sinful people had relationships with sinful people had relationships with sinful people and ways that they knew like and ways that they knew like and ways that they knew like he [snorts] loves me and he is teaching he [snorts] loves me and he is teaching he [snorts] loves me and he is teaching what's best for my life and his what's best for my life and his what's best for my life and his statements of truth came out in that statements of truth came out in that statements of truth came out in that context. I've heard it said before that context. I've heard it said before that context. I've heard it said before that grace without truth is liberalism.

grace without truth is liberalism. grace without truth is liberalism. Truth without grace is Christless Truth without grace is Christless Truth without grace is Christless conservatism. conservatism. conservatism. And either one of those neither one of And either one of those neither one of And either one of those neither one of those is the gospel. Jesus was filled those is the gospel. Jesus was filled those is the gospel. Jesus was filled with both. And let me use if you use one with both. And let me use if you use one with both. And let me use if you use one other example cuz I I I use a lot of the other example cuz I I I use a lot of the other example cuz I I I use a lot of the book to really build this out. Um Daniel book to really build this out. Um Daniel book to really build this out. Um Daniel in in in the book of you know, the book in in in the book of you know, the book in in in the book of you know, the book of Daniel. of Daniel. of Daniel. Um here's a guy that is so courageous. Um here's a guy that is so courageous. Um here's a guy that is so courageous. Yeah. But he ends up in a lion's den. Yeah. But he ends up in a lion's den. Yeah. But he ends up in a lion's den. And yet he is so beloved by the king And yet he is so beloved by the king And yet he is so beloved by the king whose decree put him there whose decree put him there whose decree put him there that the king stays outside the lion's that the king stays outside the lion's that the king stays outside the lion's den all night weeping hoping against den all night weeping hoping against den all night weeping hoping against hope that Daniel will make it through hope that Daniel will make it through hope that Daniel will make it through the night. And one of my questions is the night. And one of my questions is the night. And one of my questions is how do you become like that in your how do you become like that in your how do you become like that in your community? community? community? Where you're so clear on truth that they Where you're so clear on truth that they Where you're so clear on truth that they want to throw you in the lion's den, but want to throw you in the lion's den, but want to throw you in the lion's den, but you know, man, they just they they know you know, man, they just they they know you know, man, they just they they know that you're a friend. They know how much that you're a friend. They know how much that you're a friend. They know how much you love them that they couldn't imagine you love them that they couldn't imagine you love them that they couldn't imagine Babylon without you. And so they all we Babylon without you. And so they all we Babylon without you. And so they all we always say it here at our church that we always say it here at our church that we always say it here at our church that we want our community to say, "Man, want our community to say, "Man, want our community to say, "Man, we don't believe what those crazy We may we don't believe what those crazy We may we don't believe what those crazy We may not believe what those crazy people at not believe what those crazy people at not believe what those crazy people at Summit Church believe, but thank God Summit Church believe, but thank God Summit Church believe, but thank God they're here because if not we'd have to they're here because if not we'd have to they're here because if not we'd have to we'd all have to raise our taxes."

we'd all have to raise our taxes." we'd all have to raise our taxes." Yeah, that's the the role we want to Yeah, that's the the role we want to Yeah, that's the the role we want to have in that kingdom. I mean, I don't have in that kingdom. I mean, I don't have in that kingdom. I mean, I don't think King Darius was standing outside think King Darius was standing outside think King Darius was standing outside of the lion's den weeping because he, of the lion's den weeping because he, of the lion's den weeping because he, you know, really missed Daniel's you know, really missed Daniel's you know, really missed Daniel's stinging prophetic rebukes. Daniel stinging prophetic rebukes. Daniel stinging prophetic rebukes. Daniel clearly gave those. That's how he ended clearly gave those. That's how he ended clearly gave those. That's how he ended up in the lion's den. But I think what up in the lion's den. But I think what up in the lion's den. But I think what he was doing is he was weeping because he was doing is he was weeping because he was doing is he was weeping because he was like, "Daniel was our friend, and he was like, "Daniel was our friend, and he was like, "Daniel was our friend, and I can't imagine Babylon without Daniel." I can't imagine Babylon without Daniel." I can't imagine Babylon without Daniel." And that's how we want to be and that's And that's how we want to be and that's And that's how we want to be and that's filled with grace and truth. filled with grace and truth. filled with grace and truth. Uh switching gears a little bit, how Uh switching gears a little bit, how Uh switching gears a little bit, how have the culture war changes how how have the culture war changes how how have the culture war changes how how have the culture wars changed since say have the culture wars changed since say have the culture wars changed since say the height of the Jerry Falwell days? the height of the Jerry Falwell days? the height of the Jerry Falwell days? What's different about it now um for What's different about it now um for What's different about it now um for better or for worse? Yeah, you know, better or for worse? Yeah, you know, better or for worse? Yeah, you know, it's interesting cuz I I feel like I'm it's interesting cuz I I feel like I'm it's interesting cuz I I feel like I'm finally getting to the age finally getting to the age finally getting to the age um now that I'm in my early 30s um Yes, um now that I'm in my early 30s um Yes, um now that I'm in my early 30s um Yes, me too. Yeah, that's right. But you me too. Yeah, that's right. But you me too. Yeah, that's right. But you know, not feeling where you're actually know, not feeling where you're actually know, not feeling where you're actually starting to see a little bit of cyclical starting to see a little bit of cyclical starting to see a little bit of cyclical stuff. Yeah, yeah. For a while it's like stuff. Yeah, yeah. For a while it's like stuff. Yeah, yeah. For a while it's like everything was brand new. everything was brand new. everything was brand new. Uh I heard Dr. Keller say this in fact Uh I heard Dr. Keller say this in fact Uh I heard Dr. Keller say this in fact one of the last conversations he and I one of the last conversations he and I one of the last conversations he and I had before he passed is he said, "Man, I had before he passed is he said, "Man, I had before he passed is he said, "Man, I you know, I'm at a point where I've I've you know, I'm at a point where I've I've you know, I'm at a point where I've I've seen a few of these cycles and I don't seen a few of these cycles and I don't seen a few of these cycles and I don't know if I want to go go through them know if I want to go go through them know if I want to go go through them again, you know, just some of the again, you know, just some of the again, you know, just some of the the cultural cycles the cultural cycles the cultural cycles >> that's a very real thing when you get >> that's a very real thing when you get >> that's a very real thing when you get older. It's kind of like I know how this older. It's kind of like I know how this older. It's kind of like I know how this ends. It's not good. Right. Well, Billy ends. It's not good. Right. Well, Billy ends. It's not good. Right. Well, Billy Graham always wins. I'm going to hang on Graham always wins. I'm going to hang on Graham always wins. I'm going to hang on to that one, but Yeah, exactly. Right.

to that one, but Yeah, exactly. Right. to that one, but Yeah, exactly. Right. Well, yeah, so um Well, yeah, so um Well, yeah, so um um actually I think we need kind I think um actually I think we need kind I think um actually I think we need kind I think you and I talked about that offline. I you and I talked about that offline. I you and I talked about that offline. I mean, we need to give that a little mean, we need to give that a little mean, we need to give that a little context. I We have a new a new believer context. I We have a new a new believer context. I We have a new a new believer here at the church who's a historian of here at the church who's a historian of here at the church who's a historian of religion. Her name is Molly Worthen. religion. Her name is Molly Worthen. religion. Her name is Molly Worthen. She's uh you know, professor and writes She's uh you know, professor and writes She's uh you know, professor and writes for the New York Times, the whole deal, for the New York Times, the whole deal, for the New York Times, the whole deal, but she said, "Hey, in every generation but she said, "Hey, in every generation but she said, "Hey, in every generation we see these same battles. There's a Bob we see these same battles. There's a Bob we see these same battles. There's a Bob Jones versus Billy Graham Oh, yeah, Jones versus Billy Graham Oh, yeah, Jones versus Billy Graham Oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry, that was offline. Yeah. yeah. Sorry, that was offline. Yeah. yeah. Sorry, that was offline. Yeah. That's Well, now everybody now That's Well, now everybody now That's Well, now everybody now everybody's heard it, but um anyway, so everybody's heard it, but um anyway, so everybody's heard it, but um anyway, so to to go to your question, I do think to to go to your question, I do think to to go to your question, I do think there is there is there is >> finish that thought cuz it is a really >> finish that thought cuz it is a really >> finish that thought cuz it is a really good thought. good thought. good thought. >> Oh, man, I'll just leave it hanging. >> Oh, man, I'll just leave it hanging. >> Oh, man, I'll just leave it hanging. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In every generation Yeah, yeah, yeah. In every generation Yeah, yeah, yeah. In every generation there's a Bob Jones versus Billy Graham there's a Bob Jones versus Billy Graham there's a Bob Jones versus Billy Graham kind of struggle and she said history kind of struggle and she said history kind of struggle and she said history and baptisms are always on the side of and baptisms are always on the side of and baptisms are always on the side of Billy Graham. Billy Graham. Billy Graham. Uh people that are gospel forward and Uh people that are gospel forward and Uh people that are gospel forward and mission forward. It doesn't mean the mission forward. It doesn't mean the mission forward. It doesn't mean the doctrine's not important, of course not, doctrine's not important, of course not, doctrine's not important, of course not, but it's it means it's in the service of but it's it means it's in the service of but it's it means it's in the service of um you know, the son of man came to seek um you know, the son of man came to seek um you know, the son of man came to seek and save the lost and that's what um and save the lost and that's what um and save the lost and that's what um what a church is doing. Okay, so back to what a church is doing. Okay, so back to what a church is doing. Okay, so back to Jerry Falwell. Um I think there's Jerry Falwell. Um I think there's Jerry Falwell. Um I think there's actually some similarities between that. actually some similarities between that. actually some similarities between that. They're sort of a a thing. I do think, They're sort of a a thing. I do think, They're sort of a a thing. I do think, you know, who was it Aaron Renn who said you know, who was it Aaron Renn who said you know, who was it Aaron Renn who said that we're in now what they call a that we're in now what they call a that we're in now what they call a negative world? I I do think negative world? I I do think negative world? I I do think >> life in the negative world, Aaron Renn.

>> life in the negative world, Aaron Renn. >> life in the negative world, Aaron Renn. I read that book earlier this year. I read that book earlier this year. I read that book earlier this year. Interesting book. Interesting book. Interesting book. >> I I think honestly his category is >> I I think honestly his category is >> I I think honestly his category is probably a little simplistic because I probably a little simplistic because I probably a little simplistic because I was alive in what he called the positive was alive in what he called the positive was alive in what he called the positive world and it wasn't that positive. world and it wasn't that positive. world and it wasn't that positive. Um [laughter] you know, Um [laughter] you know, Um [laughter] you know, uh but you know, basically he says that uh but you know, basically he says that uh but you know, basically he says that in a positive world Christianity is a in a positive world Christianity is a in a positive world Christianity is a social asset, in a neutral world it's social asset, in a neutral world it's social asset, in a neutral world it's one option among many, in a negative one option among many, in a negative one option among many, in a negative world it's now part of the problem. And world it's now part of the problem. And world it's now part of the problem. And he tracks that as starting in 2014 with he tracks that as starting in 2014 with he tracks that as starting in 2014 with Obergefell. That's when it became Obergefell. That's when it became Obergefell. That's when it became negative. The assassination of Charlie negative. The assassination of Charlie negative. The assassination of Charlie Kirk certainly is a an evidence of being Kirk certainly is a an evidence of being Kirk certainly is a an evidence of being in that kind of world. Even if you want in that kind of world. Even if you want in that kind of world. Even if you want to quibble with his categories, I do to quibble with his categories, I do to quibble with his categories, I do think that we're in a place now where think that we're in a place now where think that we're in a place now where there was a there's a moment where um there was a there's a moment where um there was a there's a moment where um where it was like, "Okay, what is the where it was like, "Okay, what is the where it was like, "Okay, what is the future of Christianity going to be?" One future of Christianity going to be?" One future of Christianity going to be?" One of the things that's encouraging right of the things that's encouraging right of the things that's encouraging right now and presents a now and presents a now and presents a a real challenge or opportunity a real challenge or opportunity a real challenge or opportunity is with Gen Z coming back to church. Why is with Gen Z coming back to church. Why is with Gen Z coming back to church. Why is that? You know, what's happening? is that? You know, what's happening? is that? You know, what's happening? Well, a lot of people say Well, a lot of people say Well, a lot of people say and I agree with this that and I agree with this that and I agree with this that that it's kind of like this generation that it's kind of like this generation that it's kind of like this generation is growing up realizing that the is growing up realizing that the is growing up realizing that the foundation foundation foundation of secularism of secularism of secularism is crumbling.

is crumbling. is crumbling. And and and they're looking for And and and they're looking for And and and they're looking for something and obviously Jesus and this something and obviously Jesus and this something and obviously Jesus and this whole thing is like whole thing is like whole thing is like that is something they're like, "That is that is something they're like, "That is that is something they're like, "That is what I'm looking for." Um you ever read what I'm looking for." Um you ever read what I'm looking for." Um you ever read the book A Severe Mercy uh Sheldon the book A Severe Mercy uh Sheldon the book A Severe Mercy uh Sheldon Vanauken? He's got to see us all as led Vanauken? He's got to see us all as led Vanauken? He's got to see us all as led to Christ. Which Talk about cool to Christ. Which Talk about cool to Christ. Which Talk about cool resumes. Yeah. Yeah, C.S. Lewis led me resumes. Yeah. Yeah, C.S. Lewis led me resumes. Yeah. Yeah, C.S. Lewis led me to Christ has to go in your in your to Christ has to go in your in your to Christ has to go in your in your byline. But Wow. He um he talked about byline. But Wow. He um he talked about byline. But Wow. He um he talked about he was a basically atheist at Oxford who he was a basically atheist at Oxford who he was a basically atheist at Oxford who who Lewis led to Christ and he said that who Lewis led to Christ and he said that who Lewis led to Christ and he said that he he had this great image of when he he he had this great image of when he he he had this great image of when he finally made the leap to Jesus. finally made the leap to Jesus. finally made the leap to Jesus. He said, "What what I what I realized He said, "What what I what I realized He said, "What what I what I realized was that it wasn't that I was leaping was that it wasn't that I was leaping was that it wasn't that I was leaping from a cliff of security from a cliff of security from a cliff of security onto Jesus." He said, "This cliff was onto Jesus." He said, "This cliff was onto Jesus." He said, "This cliff was crumbling. I had nowhere to go, and in crumbling. I had nowhere to go, and in crumbling. I had nowhere to go, and in some ways I just in desperation jumped some ways I just in desperation jumped some ways I just in desperation jumped to Jesus because I knew this wasn't to Jesus because I knew this wasn't to Jesus because I knew this wasn't going to hold me." Well, I thought of going to hold me." Well, I thought of going to hold me." Well, I thought of that as being a good kind of like that as being a good kind of like that as being a good kind of like depiction of where that this generation depiction of where that this generation depiction of where that this generation was. Is they're like, "Look, I don't was. Is they're like, "Look, I don't was. Is they're like, "Look, I don't know where we're going to go, but we know where we're going to go, but we know where we're going to go, but we can't stay here. can't stay here. can't stay here. This is this is madness." Do you know This is this is madness." Do you know This is this is madness." Do you know Luke LeFevre by any chance? Yeah, Luke LeFevre by any chance? Yeah, Luke LeFevre by any chance? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly Luke's take on this. It's That's exactly Luke's take on this. It's That's exactly Luke's take on this. It's like they went from despair to like they went from despair to like they went from despair to desperation. Yeah. And like this whole desperation. Yeah. And like this whole desperation. Yeah. And like this whole thing is on fire.

thing is on fire. thing is on fire. What else is there? Let's look at Jesus. What else is there? Let's look at Jesus. What else is there? Let's look at Jesus. That's why I think the moment of That's why I think the moment of That's why I think the moment of opportunity, this goes back to your opportunity, this goes back to your opportunity, this goes back to your Jerry Falwell question, is what are we Jerry Falwell question, is what are we Jerry Falwell question, is what are we going to do with this resurgence? going to do with this resurgence? going to do with this resurgence? Are we going to allow political Are we going to allow political Are we going to allow political operatives to just turn it into a voting operatives to just turn it into a voting operatives to just turn it into a voting block? block? block? And again, I I I actually felt like And again, I I I actually felt like And again, I I I actually felt like there'd be a lot of positive in people there'd be a lot of positive in people there'd be a lot of positive in people going to the polls to vote, you know, going to the polls to vote, you know, going to the polls to vote, you know, from a a Christian worldview. So, I'm from a a Christian worldview. So, I'm from a a Christian worldview. So, I'm not trying to poo-poo that, but not trying to poo-poo that, but not trying to poo-poo that, but you know, are we going to primarily grab you know, are we going to primarily grab you know, are we going to primarily grab a hold of this surging spiritual a hold of this surging spiritual a hold of this surging spiritual interest in this generation to say, interest in this generation to say, interest in this generation to say, "Hey, it's the gospel mission." Um it's "Hey, it's the gospel mission." Um it's "Hey, it's the gospel mission." Um it's that yearning for revival that you've that yearning for revival that you've that yearning for revival that you've been talking about here in your on your been talking about here in your on your been talking about here in your on your podcast. It's it's it's it's this is we podcast. It's it's it's it's this is we podcast. It's it's it's it's this is we want this to be a gospel resurgence that want this to be a gospel resurgence that want this to be a gospel resurgence that ends with ends with ends with you know, church planting and missions you know, church planting and missions you know, church planting and missions around the world and and transformation, around the world and and transformation, around the world and and transformation, but because the gospel's the tip of the but because the gospel's the tip of the but because the gospel's the tip of the spear, if this is not just a you know, spear, if this is not just a you know, spear, if this is not just a you know, something we can commandeer into a a something we can commandeer into a a something we can commandeer into a a voting block. voting block. voting block. Do you think that's the fork in the road Do you think that's the fork in the road Do you think that's the fork in the road that we could be facing with Gen Z that that we could be facing with Gen Z that that we could be facing with Gen Z that they'll either be turned into a they'll either be turned into a they'll either be turned into a political voting block or a gospel political voting block or a gospel political voting block or a gospel resurgence? Do you see that as a resurgence? Do you see that as a resurgence? Do you see that as a possibility? I do think that and that's possibility? I do think that and that's possibility? I do think that and that's part of what part of what part of what um you know, everyday revolutionary I'm um you know, everyday revolutionary I'm um you know, everyday revolutionary I'm realizing when I started writing this a realizing when I started writing this a realizing when I started writing this a year and a half, two years ago year and a half, two years ago year and a half, two years ago that you know, I mean you know how it is that you know, I mean you know how it is that you know, I mean you know how it is as an author, Carey. You write kind of as an author, Carey. You write kind of as an author, Carey. You write kind of out of what you're you're sensing, what out of what you're you're sensing, what out of what you're you're sensing, what you're personally struggling with, how you're personally struggling with, how you're personally struggling with, how I'm trying to lead our church.

I'm trying to lead our church. I'm trying to lead our church. And I'm realizing that that what what And I'm realizing that that what what And I'm realizing that that what what was was was what we you know, we're picking up on is what we you know, we're picking up on is what we you know, we're picking up on is this moment where we really are going to this moment where we really are going to this moment where we really are going to go one of two directions. go one of two directions. go one of two directions. I I don't mean to put them as opposite I I don't mean to put them as opposite I I don't mean to put them as opposite cuz I know they're not. Any Any time the cuz I know they're not. Any Any time the cuz I know they're not. Any Any time the gospel's preached there is social gospel's preached there is social gospel's preached there is social transformation. transformation. transformation. But what we see in the New Testament is But what we see in the New Testament is But what we see in the New Testament is that the gospel preaching is primary and that the gospel preaching is primary and that the gospel preaching is primary and the social transformation is what the social transformation is what the social transformation is what follows. When you put those in the in follows. When you put those in the in follows. When you put those in the in the in the opposite order, where your the in the opposite order, where your the in the opposite order, where your your emphasis starts to go on social your emphasis starts to go on social your emphasis starts to go on social transformation, you it becomes a transformation, you it becomes a transformation, you it becomes a different thing. It becomes a different different thing. It becomes a different different thing. It becomes a different thing. thing. thing. >> social gospel movement of the early 20th >> social gospel movement of the early 20th >> social gospel movement of the early 20th century. I mean, basically you can trace century. I mean, basically you can trace century. I mean, basically you can trace some of the church decline to that. some of the church decline to that. some of the church decline to that. Absolutely. Yes, how many times do we Absolutely. Yes, how many times do we Absolutely. Yes, how many times do we have to tell this story of like don't have to tell this story of like don't have to tell this story of like don't let anything displace this preaching of let anything displace this preaching of let anything displace this preaching of the gospel. If I could use one more the gospel. If I could use one more the gospel. If I could use one more biblical example that to me has been biblical example that to me has been biblical example that to me has been really instructive. really instructive. really instructive. Um Um Um you know, there's a story in Luke 12 you know, there's a story in Luke 12 you know, there's a story in Luke 12 where a a disciple I should be a not a where a a disciple I should be a not a where a a disciple I should be a not a disciple, a brother comes to Jesus, a disciple, a brother comes to Jesus, a disciple, a brother comes to Jesus, a younger brother, cuz he's upset that his younger brother, cuz he's upset that his younger brother, cuz he's upset that his older brother has cheated him out of the older brother has cheated him out of the older brother has cheated him out of the inheritance.

inheritance. inheritance. And he's he's like, "Hey, tell my And he's he's like, "Hey, tell my And he's he's like, "Hey, tell my brother to act right." And um brother to act right." And um brother to act right." And um uh D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, again, very uh D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, again, very uh D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, again, very reformed, very expository, says, reformed, very expository, says, reformed, very expository, says, "Uh notice Jesus' response here is he "Uh notice Jesus' response here is he "Uh notice Jesus' response here is he says, 'Man, who who made me a judge over says, 'Man, who who made me a judge over says, 'Man, who who made me a judge over you?'" And Lloyd-Jones says, "Why would you?'" And Lloyd-Jones says, "Why would you?'" And Lloyd-Jones says, "Why would he respond that way? Does he not care he respond that way? Does he not care he respond that way? Does he not care about justice? about justice? about justice? Does he Does he not feel qualified to Does he Does he not feel qualified to Does he Does he not feel qualified to give an opinion? Well, of course not. He give an opinion? Well, of course not. He give an opinion? Well, of course not. He Jesus deeply cared about justice and he Jesus deeply cared about justice and he Jesus deeply cared about justice and he would have been very qualified to give would have been very qualified to give would have been very qualified to give an opinion. But what he did in that an opinion. But what he did in that an opinion. But what he did in that moment is he said, 'Man, who made me a moment is he said, 'Man, who made me a moment is he said, 'Man, who made me a judge over you?' And then Jesus judge over you?' And then Jesus judge over you?' And then Jesus proceeded to preach a a sermon on greed proceeded to preach a a sermon on greed proceeded to preach a a sermon on greed that would have applied to both brothers that would have applied to both brothers that would have applied to both brothers uh about that problem of idolatry and uh about that problem of idolatry and uh about that problem of idolatry and all the crowd that was listening. And all the crowd that was listening. And all the crowd that was listening. And what Lloyd-Jones said is he said he what Lloyd-Jones said is he said he what Lloyd-Jones said is he said he said, 'Really, what Jesus understood in said, 'Really, what Jesus understood in said, 'Really, what Jesus understood in that moment was not that justice wasn't that moment was not that justice wasn't that moment was not that justice wasn't important, but that what his commission important, but that what his commission important, but that what his commission was was to was to preach in a way that was was to was to preach in a way that was was to was to preach in a way that engaged the idolatry of the whole group engaged the idolatry of the whole group engaged the idolatry of the whole group and not just is he said it Lloyd-Jones I and not just is he said it Lloyd-Jones I and not just is he said it Lloyd-Jones I mean actually had Jesus weighed in on mean actually had Jesus weighed in on mean actually had Jesus weighed in on that one. First of all, he would have that one. First of all, he would have that one. First of all, he would have called off anybody who agreed with the called off anybody who agreed with the called off anybody who agreed with the older brother. And then second of all, older brother. And then second of all, older brother. And then second of all, he would have had a line a mile long the he would have had a line a mile long the he would have had a line a mile long the next day of people who wanted him to, next day of people who wanted him to, next day of people who wanted him to, you know, weigh in on their cases. And you know, weigh in on their cases. And you know, weigh in on their cases. And he said for Jesus, it wasn't that he he said for Jesus, it wasn't that he he said for Jesus, it wasn't that he didn't care about justice. It's that didn't care about justice. It's that didn't care about justice. It's that It's that he knew the preaching of the It's that he knew the preaching of the It's that he knew the preaching of the gospel had to be paramount and that was gospel had to be paramount and that was gospel had to be paramount and that was going to be what defined his preaching, going to be what defined his preaching, going to be what defined his preaching, his movement, and his message. And his movement, and his message. And his movement, and his message. And that's what needs to define the the that's what needs to define the the that's what needs to define the the movement and message of this generation movement and message of this generation movement and message of this generation returning to church.

returning to church. returning to church. What's at stake in this moment in the What's at stake in this moment in the What's at stake in this moment in the culture wars in America? I mean, are we Are we asking that from I mean, are we Are we asking that from the perspective of the nation or you the perspective of the nation or you the perspective of the nation or you think from the church? Or just however I think from the church? Or just however I think from the church? Or just however I You can answer both ways, either way. You can answer both ways, either way. You can answer both ways, either way. I mean, I I'm very I'm going to say I mean, I I'm very I'm going to say I mean, I I'm very I'm going to say hopefully this is not whiplash for your hopefully this is not whiplash for your hopefully this is not whiplash for your listeners, but yes, I'm very concerned listeners, but yes, I'm very concerned listeners, but yes, I'm very concerned about where the discourse is in our about where the discourse is in our about where the discourse is in our country. country. country. I'm concerned about the I'm concerned about the I'm concerned about the the the the the tribalism that is the the the the tribalism that is the the the the tribalism that is identifying, you know, like like these identifying, you know, like like these identifying, you know, like like these are the these are the white hats and are the these are the white hats and are the these are the white hats and these are the black hats and these are the black hats and these are the black hats and uh you know, the just the uh you know, the just the uh you know, the just the tearing, you know, how discourse is tearing, you know, how discourse is tearing, you know, how discourse is is just not happening anymore. You only is just not happening anymore. You only is just not happening anymore. You only talk with the people that are in there. talk with the people that are in there. talk with the people that are in there. I think that is I think that is I think that is I I you know, I think there's a lot of I I you know, I think there's a lot of I I you know, I think there's a lot of things that um I'm very concerned about things that um I'm very concerned about things that um I'm very concerned about about labeling one side of the political about labeling one side of the political about labeling one side of the political aisle the Jesus side and making it, you aisle the Jesus side and making it, you aisle the Jesus side and making it, you know, know, know, equivalent to that. It's not that I equivalent to that. It's not that I equivalent to that. It's not that I don't think there are wiser choices. I don't think there are wiser choices. I don't think there are wiser choices. I do.

do. do. But the third commandment But the third commandment But the third commandment is you shall not take the Lord's name in is you shall not take the Lord's name in is you shall not take the Lord's name in vain, which, you know, we know means vain, which, you know, we know means vain, which, you know, we know means more than just not swearing. It means more than just not swearing. It means more than just not swearing. It means that you don't ever attach God's name to that you don't ever attach God's name to that you don't ever attach God's name to something that is unworthy of him. And something that is unworthy of him. And something that is unworthy of him. And when you make Jesus synonymous with when you make Jesus synonymous with when you make Jesus synonymous with one particular side of the aisle, then one particular side of the aisle, then one particular side of the aisle, then you also make him responsible for you also make him responsible for you also make him responsible for everything that happens on that side of everything that happens on that side of everything that happens on that side of the aisle. the aisle. the aisle. And I'm like, "Look, you know, as And I'm like, "Look, you know, as And I'm like, "Look, you know, as president of the SBC, people associate president of the SBC, people associate president of the SBC, people associate us with the political right." And that's us with the political right." And that's us with the political right." And that's not that shouldn't be a a surprise to not that shouldn't be a a surprise to not that shouldn't be a a surprise to anybody, right? anybody, right? anybody, right? >> So that means I feel a little extra I >> So that means I feel a little extra I >> So that means I feel a little extra I preach against preach against preach against anything, you know, like whatever's in anything, you know, like whatever's in anything, you know, like whatever's in the Bible, but I actually feel a little the Bible, but I actually feel a little the Bible, but I actually feel a little extra burden to make clear where the extra burden to make clear where the extra burden to make clear where the gospel of Jesus would differ than gospel of Jesus would differ than gospel of Jesus would differ than somebody who is a political spokesman somebody who is a political spokesman somebody who is a political spokesman from the right because I don't want the from the right because I don't want the from the right because I don't want the gospel of Jesus or the name of Jesus to gospel of Jesus or the name of Jesus to gospel of Jesus or the name of Jesus to be sullied with this non-Jesus thing be sullied with this non-Jesus thing be sullied with this non-Jesus thing because to me that's taking his name in because to me that's taking his name in because to me that's taking his name in vain. And the name of Jesus is the most vain. And the name of Jesus is the most vain. And the name of Jesus is the most precious thing in the world because it's precious thing in the world because it's precious thing in the world because it's the only way of salvation. And the one the only way of salvation. And the one the only way of salvation. And the one thing that I have to do, we have to do, thing that I have to do, we have to do, thing that I have to do, we have to do, is we have to keep the name of Jesus is we have to keep the name of Jesus is we have to keep the name of Jesus holy and clear because it's the um you holy and clear because it's the um you holy and clear because it's the um you know, the name that has salvation um in know, the name that has salvation um in know, the name that has salvation um in it. So I don't I don't know if I'm it. So I don't I don't know if I'm it. So I don't I don't know if I'm making sense on that other than to say making sense on that other than to say making sense on that other than to say that what I feel like we've got to do in that what I feel like we've got to do in that what I feel like we've got to do in this cultural moment is we have to this cultural moment is we have to this cultural moment is we have to um we have to to make sure that we are um we have to to make sure that we are um we have to to make sure that we are are being clear on what belongs to Jesus are being clear on what belongs to Jesus are being clear on what belongs to Jesus and what and what and what what are good political programs that what are good political programs that what are good political programs that that are secondary or the applications

that are secondary or the applications that are secondary or the applications of wisdom. You know, when You know, when you think about what's happening with you think about what's happening with you think about what's happening with Gen Z, my take of it is it hasn't turned Gen Z, my take of it is it hasn't turned Gen Z, my take of it is it hasn't turned into a voting block. There is a genuine into a voting block. There is a genuine into a voting block. There is a genuine revival happening. Um at least that's revival happening. Um at least that's revival happening. Um at least that's what I'm seeing from the people who are what I'm seeing from the people who are what I'm seeing from the people who are there. And there is a political overtone there. And there is a political overtone there. And there is a political overtone to it, but I don't think it's been to it, but I don't think it's been to it, but I don't think it's been co-opted, so to speak. And I hope that co-opted, so to speak. And I hope that co-opted, so to speak. And I hope that that continues, you know, that that that continues, you know, that that that continues, you know, that that there's a genuine there's a genuine there's a genuine commitment to what I think of as an alt commitment to what I think of as an alt commitment to what I think of as an alt an alternative kingdom, you know, the an alternative kingdom, you know, the an alternative kingdom, you know, the kingdom that Jesus is bringing in, which kingdom that Jesus is bringing in, which kingdom that Jesus is bringing in, which N.T. Wright would talk about, you would N.T. Wright would talk about, you would N.T. Wright would talk about, you would talk about, others would talk but what talk about, others would talk but what talk about, others would talk but what what happens to the church if these what happens to the church if these what happens to the church if these culture wars continue and become the culture wars continue and become the culture wars continue and become the dominant dialogue? Where Where do we end dominant dialogue? Where Where do we end dominant dialogue? Where Where do we end up if this gets, quote, worse? up if this gets, quote, worse? up if this gets, quote, worse? Yeah, I mean, so there again, it's just Yeah, I mean, so there again, it's just Yeah, I mean, so there again, it's just so people don't take this out of so people don't take this out of so people don't take this out of context, um context, um context, um there is our social applications that we there is our social applications that we there is our social applications that we have after we get disciples. So I don't have after we get disciples. So I don't have after we get disciples. So I don't want to say that That's why I use the want to say that That's why I use the want to say that That's why I use the word transcend the culture war. I always word transcend the culture war. I always word transcend the culture war. I always say faithfulness to Jesus is not less say faithfulness to Jesus is not less say faithfulness to Jesus is not less than clarity about cultural issues. It's than clarity about cultural issues. It's than clarity about cultural issues. It's just a lot more.

just a lot more. just a lot more. If it ceases to be the more aspect and If it ceases to be the more aspect and If it ceases to be the more aspect and it just becomes about pontificating it just becomes about pontificating it just becomes about pontificating societal things, societal things, societal things, like I said earlier, you end up losing like I said earlier, you end up losing like I said earlier, you end up losing the gospel because truth without grace, the gospel because truth without grace, the gospel because truth without grace, truth without the the salvation focus of truth without the the salvation focus of truth without the the salvation focus of what Jesus called us to do is, you know, what Jesus called us to do is, you know, what Jesus called us to do is, you know, that that to me when I say that the the that that to me when I say that the the that that to me when I say that the the negative part of culture war is treating negative part of culture war is treating negative part of culture war is treating it all like it's a political program it all like it's a political program it all like it's a political program versus you know, Jesus' salvation was it versus you know, Jesus' salvation was it versus you know, Jesus' salvation was it started with the heart. I mean, Rome had started with the heart. I mean, Rome had started with the heart. I mean, Rome had all kinds of political problems. all kinds of political problems. all kinds of political problems. Yeah. Paul even rebukes some of them in Yeah. Paul even rebukes some of them in Yeah. Paul even rebukes some of them in in some of his epistles, but none of the in some of his epistles, but none of the in some of his epistles, but none of the epistles has as their primary thing how epistles has as their primary thing how epistles has as their primary thing how to reform Rome. Now, I know people are to reform Rome. Now, I know people are to reform Rome. Now, I know people are going to going to going to >> thing, Caesar, and here's another thing. >> thing, Caesar, and here's another thing. >> thing, Caesar, and here's another thing. Yeah. [laughter] Now, I know some people Yeah. [laughter] Now, I know some people Yeah. [laughter] Now, I know some people hear that and say, "Well, they didn't hear that and say, "Well, they didn't hear that and say, "Well, they didn't have the options that we have because have the options that we have because have the options that we have because they they couldn't vote." And I they they couldn't vote." And I they they couldn't vote." And I understand that. Like we have some understand that. Like we have some understand that. Like we have some options, but, you know, the point is at options, but, you know, the point is at options, but, you know, the point is at every point in the gospels and in the in every point in the gospels and in the in every point in the gospels and in the in the book of Acts, you see the apostles the book of Acts, you see the apostles the book of Acts, you see the apostles and Jesus steering away from "Hey, let's and Jesus steering away from "Hey, let's and Jesus steering away from "Hey, let's turn this into a political program" and turn this into a political program" and turn this into a political program" and turning it more into let's preach the turning it more into let's preach the turning it more into let's preach the gospel, make disciples. And the result gospel, make disciples. And the result gospel, make disciples. And the result of that the downstream result of that is of that the downstream result of that is of that the downstream result of that is everything in society is going to everything in society is going to everything in society is going to change. I mean, Tom Holland, the change. I mean, Tom Holland, the change. I mean, Tom Holland, the historian, historian, historian, >> Oh, yeah. What a great book, Dominion?

>> Oh, yeah. What a great book, Dominion? >> Oh, yeah. What a great book, Dominion? Oh, yeah. But he he demonstrates that Oh, yeah. But he he demonstrates that Oh, yeah. But he he demonstrates that wherever the gospel is embraced and wherever the gospel is embraced and wherever the gospel is embraced and believed, the greatest reforms, you believed, the greatest reforms, you believed, the greatest reforms, you know, socially in the world happened know, socially in the world happened know, socially in the world happened because of that. So I I don't want to because of that. So I I don't want to because of that. So I I don't want to say this is less than say this is less than say this is less than >> implications. And we should be clear >> implications. And we should be clear >> implications. And we should be clear because we've been talking about the because we've been talking about the because we've been talking about the other side. The gospel has political other side. The gospel has political other side. The gospel has political implications. It has social implications. It has social implications. It has social implications. implications. implications. Um but they often don't look like what Um but they often don't look like what Um but they often don't look like what the culture war says they are. Right. the culture war says they are. Right. the culture war says they are. Right. Yeah, I mean, you know, you've heard Yeah, I mean, you know, you've heard Yeah, I mean, you know, you've heard this before, but when Christianity this before, but when Christianity this before, but when Christianity weds when the church unites with weds when the church unites with weds when the church unites with politics, what you get is politics. politics, what you get is politics. politics, what you get is politics. You know, or, you know, um you know, You know, or, you know, um you know, You know, or, you know, um you know, when the church gets in bed with when the church gets in bed with when the church gets in bed with politics, the church gets pregnant is, politics, the church gets pregnant is, politics, the church gets pregnant is, you know, how another way I've heard it you know, how another way I've heard it you know, how another way I've heard it said. And what we have to to do is say, said. And what we have to to do is say, said. And what we have to to do is say, "Okay, our mission the mission that we "Okay, our mission the mission that we "Okay, our mission the mission that we have is we are here to preach the have is we are here to preach the have is we are here to preach the gospel, make disciples." There's a gospel, make disciples." There's a gospel, make disciples." There's a distinction I unpack in the book that distinction I unpack in the book that distinction I unpack in the book that was really helpful for me in this. This was really helpful for me in this. This was really helpful for me in this. This was an aha moment for me. So if you give was an aha moment for me. So if you give was an aha moment for me. So if you give me a second to describe it, um Abraham me a second to describe it, um Abraham me a second to describe it, um Abraham Kuyper, who we've already referred to Kuyper, who we've already referred to Kuyper, who we've already referred to once, he talked in his writings about once, he talked in his writings about once, he talked in his writings about the difference in the church as the difference in the church as the difference in the church as organization and the church as organism.

organization and the church as organism. organization and the church as organism. He said, "As an organism, He said, "As an organism, He said, "As an organism, the church is everywhere. The members of the church is everywhere. The members of the church is everywhere. The members of the church are everywhere and they are the church are everywhere and they are the church are everywhere and they are bringing the salt and light of Jesus' bringing the salt and light of Jesus' bringing the salt and light of Jesus' shalom and his kingdom principles into shalom and his kingdom principles into shalom and his kingdom principles into everything from how we do education to everything from how we do education to everything from how we do education to how we do real estate to how we make how we do real estate to how we make how we do real estate to how we make laws in Congress. There's not one square laws in Congress. There's not one square laws in Congress. There's not one square inch." That's where that phrase comes inch." That's where that phrase comes inch." That's where that phrase comes from, over which he says a clear mind. from, over which he says a clear mind. from, over which he says a clear mind. He said, "The church as organization He said, "The church as organization He said, "The church as organization actually has a very narrow actually has a very narrow actually has a very narrow calling. And as a officer, as a pastor, calling. And as a officer, as a pastor, calling. And as a officer, as a pastor, a representative of that organization, a representative of that organization, a representative of that organization, that's where I will show some of the that's where I will show some of the that's where I will show some of the restraint that Jesus did restraint that Jesus did restraint that Jesus did where in the discussion with the where in the discussion with the where in the discussion with the brothers, like, 'Hey, that's not my brothers, like, 'Hey, that's not my brothers, like, 'Hey, that's not my role. That is not my role to put an role. That is not my role to put an role. That is not my role to put an opinion about global warming out there opinion about global warming out there opinion about global warming out there and attach thus says the Lord to it.'" and attach thus says the Lord to it.'" and attach thus says the Lord to it.'" Right. That's different. So I'm going to Right. That's different. So I'm going to Right. That's different. So I'm going to I'm going to actually show some I'm going to actually show some I'm going to actually show some restraint even though I want members of restraint even though I want members of restraint even though I want members of our church our church our church thinking as Christians in the global thinking as Christians in the global thinking as Christians in the global warming question. And they're out there warming question. And they're out there warming question. And they're out there doing cuz that's the church as organism. doing cuz that's the church as organism. doing cuz that's the church as organism. And that distinction has really helped And that distinction has really helped And that distinction has really helped me say, "Hey, we want to affect every me say, "Hey, we want to affect every me say, "Hey, we want to affect every part of our society, but just understand part of our society, but just understand part of our society, but just understand that the pulpit of this church, we that the pulpit of this church, we that the pulpit of this church, we actually church as organization, we have actually church as organization, we have actually church as organization, we have a a more limited lane and we're going to a a more limited lane and we're going to a a more limited lane and we're going to be pretty disciplined about making sure be pretty disciplined about making sure be pretty disciplined about making sure that our statements that we make and the that our statements that we make and the that our statements that we make and the energy we direct to this church is going energy we direct to this church is going energy we direct to this church is going to be inside of that lane and not in all to be inside of that lane and not in all to be inside of that lane and not in all the myriad ways that that that the the myriad ways that that that the the myriad ways that that that the gospel impacts society out in the gospel impacts society out in the gospel impacts society out in the community."

community." community." What are some of the key practices? And What are some of the key practices? And What are some of the key practices? And I know we talked about this already, but I know we talked about this already, but I know we talked about this already, but if you had to summarize a few of the if you had to summarize a few of the if you had to summarize a few of the things we talked about or introduce a things we talked about or introduce a things we talked about or introduce a couple of new ideas, what are some of couple of new ideas, what are some of couple of new ideas, what are some of the principles or practices that keep the principles or practices that keep the principles or practices that keep you grounded in this and not getting you grounded in this and not getting you grounded in this and not getting sucked into putting your head down and sucked into putting your head down and sucked into putting your head down and never speaking about an issue or just never speaking about an issue or just never speaking about an issue or just playing into the culture wars? What are playing into the culture wars? What are playing into the culture wars? What are some personal practices you some personal practices you some personal practices you >> Well, I build um I I I build a the >> Well, I build um I I I build a the >> Well, I build um I I I build a the second section of this book around second section of this book around second section of this book around Paul's admonition to live quietly. Paul's admonition to live quietly. Paul's admonition to live quietly. Um this is phrase in 1 Thessalonians Um this is phrase in 1 Thessalonians Um this is phrase in 1 Thessalonians 4:11. Um Peter, uh who, you know, writes 4:11. Um Peter, uh who, you know, writes 4:11. Um Peter, uh who, you know, writes um for people who are living exile in um for people who are living exile in um for people who are living exile in Babylon, that's how he postures his Babylon, that's how he postures his Babylon, that's how he postures his epistle. He actually says live epistle. He actually says live epistle. He actually says live remarkably. The word is kalos, but he's remarkably. The word is kalos, but he's remarkably. The word is kalos, but he's talking about the same idea. talking about the same idea. talking about the same idea. Live quietly. That seems like an odd Live quietly. That seems like an odd Live quietly. That seems like an odd instruction from the guy who, you know, instruction from the guy who, you know, instruction from the guy who, you know, showed up in the amphitheater and showed up in the amphitheater and showed up in the amphitheater and shouted down the Ephesians and told them shouted down the Ephesians and told them shouted down the Ephesians and told them their gods were not really gods at all, their gods were not really gods at all, their gods were not really gods at all, right? Uh or Peter, you know, he stands right? Uh or Peter, you know, he stands right? Uh or Peter, you know, he stands up in Acts 2 and tells them they're, you up in Acts 2 and tells them they're, you up in Acts 2 and tells them they're, you know, crucified Jesus with wicked hands.

know, crucified Jesus with wicked hands. know, crucified Jesus with wicked hands. But what they were getting at, live But what they were getting at, live But what they were getting at, live quietly, is the job description of the quietly, is the job description of the quietly, is the job description of the normal Christian, of the average normal Christian, of the average normal Christian, of the average Christian going in there, Christian going in there, Christian going in there, is to live their life in a way is to live their life in a way is to live their life in a way that sets up a dramatic contrast with that sets up a dramatic contrast with that sets up a dramatic contrast with Babylon. Babylon. Babylon. And that you know this is where Peter And that you know this is where Peter And that you know this is where Peter says 1 Peter 3:15 when you live this way says 1 Peter 3:15 when you live this way says 1 Peter 3:15 when you live this way they will ask a reason for the hope that they will ask a reason for the hope that they will ask a reason for the hope that is within you. Um what I try to do in is within you. Um what I try to do in is within you. Um what I try to do in the book is I give you five principles the book is I give you five principles the book is I give you five principles from Paul and Peter of living quietly from Paul and Peter of living quietly from Paul and Peter of living quietly that set up for a loud testimony. Let's that set up for a loud testimony. Let's that set up for a loud testimony. Let's Let's go through that. Okay. So um these Let's go through that. Okay. So um these Let's go through that. Okay. So um these apply to you whether you're a third apply to you whether you're a third apply to you whether you're a third grade teacher or the CFO of a grade teacher or the CFO of a grade teacher or the CFO of a multinational conglomerate. Um you're multinational conglomerate. Um you're multinational conglomerate. Um you're going to live in a way that is creation going to live in a way that is creation going to live in a way that is creation fulfilling because the first commission fulfilling because the first commission fulfilling because the first commission that was given to us even before the that was given to us even before the that was given to us even before the Great Commission was the creation Great Commission was the creation Great Commission was the creation commission where we're supposed to commission where we're supposed to commission where we're supposed to develop the earth for the benefit and develop the earth for the benefit and develop the earth for the benefit and the beauty of of humans. So you know the beauty of of humans. So you know the beauty of of humans. So you know whether you're bread truck driver or whether you're bread truck driver or whether you're bread truck driver or whether you're uh you know building whether you're uh you know building whether you're uh you know building skyscrapers, you're doing that as a way skyscrapers, you're doing that as a way skyscrapers, you're doing that as a way of of making the world a better place.

of of making the world a better place. of of making the world a better place. The second one is The second one is The second one is um it is going to be excellence pursuing um it is going to be excellence pursuing um it is going to be excellence pursuing because uh you know Paul says whatever because uh you know Paul says whatever because uh you know Paul says whatever you're doing do it as a as an offering you're doing do it as a as an offering you're doing do it as a as an offering to God that people see the excellence. to God that people see the excellence. to God that people see the excellence. Daniel is described as having an Daniel is described as having an Daniel is described as having an excellent spirit about him which he excellent spirit about him which he excellent spirit about him which he defines as he did his work with defines as he did his work with defines as he did his work with integrity and he did it with diligence. integrity and he did it with diligence. integrity and he did it with diligence. Um so it's excellence pursuing. The Um so it's excellence pursuing. The Um so it's excellence pursuing. The third um um one is holiness reflecting third um um one is holiness reflecting third um um one is holiness reflecting and that is it's reflecting Peter says a and that is it's reflecting Peter says a and that is it's reflecting Peter says a holy God. He is holy so you were holy holy God. He is holy so you were holy holy God. He is holy so you were holy and that's reflected in um in the way and that's reflected in um in the way and that's reflected in um in the way you do your business. And then um you do your business. And then um you do your business. And then um redemption displaying is this idea that redemption displaying is this idea that redemption displaying is this idea that Christians who've been radically Christians who've been radically Christians who've been radically impacted by grace impacted by grace impacted by grace they can't help but have that just seep they can't help but have that just seep they can't help but have that just seep out into the way they do business and to out into the way they do business and to out into the way they do business and to how they you know treat their customers how they you know treat their customers how they you know treat their customers and and just in in all these ways the and and just in in all these ways the and and just in in all these ways the gospel just sort of seeps through and it gospel just sort of seeps through and it gospel just sort of seeps through and it it provokes that reason like why it provokes that reason like why it provokes that reason like why why are you doing this the way that why are you doing this the way that why are you doing this the way that you're doing it and it's because you can you're doing it and it's because you can you're doing it and it's because you can you point to the gospel. And then the you point to the gospel. And then the you point to the gospel. And then the last one is mission advancing and that last one is mission advancing and that last one is mission advancing and that is where you are are using the Proverbs is where you are are using the Proverbs is where you are are using the Proverbs 22:29 you see a man who is skillful in 22:29 you see a man who is skillful in 22:29 you see a man who is skillful in his work he will stand before kings. You his work he will stand before kings. You his work he will stand before kings. You know you were using these moments before know you were using these moments before know you were using these moments before kings to to be able to testify to your kings to to be able to testify to your kings to to be able to testify to your king the king um of your home country king the king um of your home country king the king um of your home country that is motivating you beyond what's that is motivating you beyond what's that is motivating you beyond what's there. Those are five things I feel like there. Those are five things I feel like there. Those are five things I feel like yes I like like what should you do yes I like like what should you do yes I like like what should you do tomorrow?

tomorrow? tomorrow? These are the five things you should do These are the five things you should do These are the five things you should do tomorrow and you should live these out tomorrow and you should live these out tomorrow and you should live these out and that's a life of discipleship for and that's a life of discipleship for and that's a life of discipleship for the rest of your life. the rest of your life. the rest of your life. >> Yeah most of us are going to pick a >> Yeah most of us are going to pick a >> Yeah most of us are going to pick a couple uh but but that list is is couple uh but but that list is is couple uh but but that list is is challenging. challenging. challenging. One or two more questions for you JD. One or two more questions for you JD. One or two more questions for you JD. How much of what we talked about in the How much of what we talked about in the How much of what we talked about in the culture for wars or you know you can culture for wars or you know you can culture for wars or you know you can take this wherever you want is related take this wherever you want is related take this wherever you want is related to identity? You know I I can get known to identity? You know I I can get known to identity? You know I I can get known for what I agree with and what I for what I agree with and what I for what I agree with and what I disagree with. I can become famous for disagree with. I can become famous for disagree with. I can become famous for what I agree with and what I disagree what I agree with and what I disagree what I agree with and what I disagree with. Do you think any of this is tied with. Do you think any of this is tied with. Do you think any of this is tied to identity and if so how? What are you to identity and if so how? What are you to identity and if so how? What are you saying um that saying um that saying um that >> on issues. Yeah. Like it and then and >> on issues. Yeah. Like it and then and >> on issues. Yeah. Like it and then and that helps me in my following or is that that helps me in my following or is that that helps me in my following or is that Yeah yeah helps in my following helps Yeah yeah helps in my following helps Yeah yeah helps in my following helps grow my church. grow my church. grow my church. I'm looking uh looking for something I I'm looking uh looking for something I I'm looking uh looking for something I wrote yesterday but you keep going. Here wrote yesterday but you keep going. Here wrote yesterday but you keep going. Here we go. we go. we go. >> Yeah. Well you know I do wonder like >> Yeah. Well you know I do wonder like >> Yeah. Well you know I do wonder like it's sort of ironic that um it's sort of ironic that um it's sort of ironic that um you know if you're looking to be a a you know if you're looking to be a a you know if you're looking to be a a gospel forward church gospel forward church gospel forward church and to not have secondary things and to not have secondary things and to not have secondary things that define you the irony is that that define you the irony is that that define you the irony is that actually it it won't increase your actually it it won't increase your actually it it won't increase your audience it will decrease your audience.

audience it will decrease your audience. audience it will decrease your audience. I think that's what a lot of us fear. I think that's what a lot of us fear. I think that's what a lot of us fear. Yes. I mean you know but the the solace Yes. I mean you know but the the solace Yes. I mean you know but the the solace I take biblically is I think that Paul I take biblically is I think that Paul I take biblically is I think that Paul would have told you the fastest way to would have told you the fastest way to would have told you the fastest way to just grow certain churches would be if just grow certain churches would be if just grow certain churches would be if he went to Ephesus to plant First he went to Ephesus to plant First he went to Ephesus to plant First Baptist Jew on one side First Baptist Baptist Jew on one side First Baptist Baptist Jew on one side First Baptist Gentile on the other. Gentile on the other. Gentile on the other. Right? Because you know you they would Right? Because you know you they would Right? Because you know you they would have have have and you wouldn't had all these epistles and you wouldn't had all these epistles and you wouldn't had all these epistles about what to eat and not eat because about what to eat and not eat because about what to eat and not eat because they would have all eaten the same they would have all eaten the same they would have all eaten the same things. Yeah yeah right. things. Yeah yeah right. things. Yeah yeah right. >> but instead he planted one church with >> but instead he planted one church with >> but instead he planted one church with Jew and Gentile. Um I actually had to Jew and Gentile. Um I actually had to Jew and Gentile. Um I actually had to preach on Philippi this morning to a preach on Philippi this morning to a preach on Philippi this morning to a um a group of church leaders in Acts 16 um a group of church leaders in Acts 16 um a group of church leaders in Acts 16 and you know here you got the first four and you know here you got the first four and you know here you got the first four converts in the church of Philippi. The converts in the church of Philippi. The converts in the church of Philippi. The first church of Philippi is a woman first church of Philippi is a woman first church of Philippi is a woman Lydia a slave girl and a and a the Roman Lydia a slave girl and a and a the Roman Lydia a slave girl and a and a the Roman jailer a Gentile. You know in the Siddur jailer a Gentile. You know in the Siddur jailer a Gentile. You know in the Siddur which was the Jewish prayer book you which was the Jewish prayer book you which was the Jewish prayer book you know their my utmost for his highest know their my utmost for his highest know their my utmost for his highest that he used they used every morning. Um that he used they used every morning. Um that he used they used every morning. Um it you know every morning Jewish man it you know every morning Jewish man it you know every morning Jewish man would pray Lord thank you I'm not a would pray Lord thank you I'm not a would pray Lord thank you I'm not a woman a slave or a Gentile. And the woman a slave or a Gentile. And the woman a slave or a Gentile. And the first church is a Jewish Pharisee a first church is a Jewish Pharisee a first church is a Jewish Pharisee a woman a slave and a Gentile. And you woman a slave and a Gentile. And you woman a slave and a Gentile. And you know what you've got is you got a group know what you've got is you got a group know what you've got is you got a group of people that are like then they would of people that are like then they would of people that are like then they would have been social enemies and then they have been social enemies and then they have been social enemies and then they found this union in the gospel and Paul found this union in the gospel and Paul found this union in the gospel and Paul says in Ephesians 3:10 that that is a is says in Ephesians 3:10 that that is a is says in Ephesians 3:10 that that is a is is in and of itself a declaration of the is in and of itself a declaration of the is in and of itself a declaration of the mystery and the power of God. So yeah mystery and the power of God. So yeah mystery and the power of God. So yeah I'm trying to reach as many people as I'm trying to reach as many people as I'm trying to reach as many people as possible possible possible but I know if if if you were just like but I know if if if you were just like but I know if if if you were just like hey JD you got to get an extra 5,000 hey JD you got to get an extra 5,000 hey JD you got to get an extra 5,000 people in your church by 3 weeks from people in your church by 3 weeks from people in your church by 3 weeks from now the way to do that is I would lean now the way to do that is I would lean now the way to do that is I would lean hard into one of these political sides

hard into one of these political sides hard into one of these political sides and a thousand people would leave and and a thousand people would leave and and a thousand people would leave and 6,000 would come. 6,000 would come. 6,000 would come. But what God has called me to do is he's But what God has called me to do is he's But what God has called me to do is he's called me to help to lead and shape a called me to help to lead and shape a called me to help to lead and shape a community whose defining characteristic community whose defining characteristic community whose defining characteristic is not secondary issues or preferences is not secondary issues or preferences is not secondary issues or preferences but our our our primary unity is in the but our our our primary unity is in the but our our our primary unity is in the gospel of Jesus. I think I want to leave it there. I think I want to leave it there. Yeah. That's a really good admonition Yeah. That's a really good admonition Yeah. That's a really good admonition and and and maybe to encourage people listening if maybe to encourage people listening if maybe to encourage people listening if it's hard perhaps you're doing it right. it's hard perhaps you're doing it right. it's hard perhaps you're doing it right. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah yeah. The book is called Everyday The book is called Everyday The book is called Everyday Revolutionary Revolutionary Revolutionary and what's the subtitle it's so good how and what's the subtitle it's so good how and what's the subtitle it's so good how to transcend the culture wars. Woof. to transcend the culture wars. Woof. to transcend the culture wars. Woof. Brave man you can retire now. [laughter] Brave man you can retire now. [laughter] Brave man you can retire now. [laughter] That was good. I know you got to keep That was good. I know you got to keep That was good. I know you got to keep going too but like Well now you know I going too but like Well now you know I going too but like Well now you know I was thinking this is what I was what I was thinking this is what I was what I was thinking this is what I was what I was trying to decide should I say this was trying to decide should I say this was trying to decide should I say this or not but Jesus' crucifixion Yeah. or not but Jesus' crucifixion Yeah. or not but Jesus' crucifixion Yeah. >> was a joint project. I know this is a >> was a joint project. I know this is a >> was a joint project. I know this is a little simplistic but it's a joint pro a little simplistic but it's a joint pro a little simplistic but it's a joint pro a joint project of the secular left and joint project of the secular left and joint project of the secular left and the religious right.

the religious right. the religious right. I would I'm not trying to morally I would I'm not trying to morally I would I'm not trying to morally equivocate or say that they're the same equivocate or say that they're the same equivocate or say that they're the same or that they're evil or bad. I'm just or that they're evil or bad. I'm just or that they're evil or bad. I'm just saying the facts are saying the facts are saying the facts are when it came down for him to be when it came down for him to be when it came down for him to be crucified they both hated him and they crucified they both hated him and they crucified they both hated him and they hated him for different reasons. hated him for different reasons. hated him for different reasons. And so you you know we I spent all my And so you you know we I spent all my And so you you know we I spent all my life carry at my my my own background as life carry at my my my own background as life carry at my my my own background as I grew up in a very it's called I grew up in a very it's called I grew up in a very it's called independent Baptist which means it was independent Baptist which means it was independent Baptist which means it was you know just kind of fighting fundy. you know just kind of fighting fundy. you know just kind of fighting fundy. All my life I got warned about the ditch All my life I got warned about the ditch All my life I got warned about the ditch on the left side of the gospel road. And on the left side of the gospel road. And on the left side of the gospel road. And that ditch is called compromise you know that ditch is called compromise you know that ditch is called compromise you know and cowardly silence. and cowardly silence. and cowardly silence. But it's like the old Scottish proverb But it's like the old Scottish proverb But it's like the old Scottish proverb says for every one mile of road you got says for every one mile of road you got says for every one mile of road you got two miles of ditch. Nobody ever warned two miles of ditch. Nobody ever warned two miles of ditch. Nobody ever warned me about the ditch on the right side of me about the ditch on the right side of me about the ditch on the right side of the road which was this gospel the road which was this gospel the road which was this gospel superseding conservatism that that that superseding conservatism that that that superseding conservatism that that that corrupted the message corrupted the message corrupted the message and just and left it with culture war and just and left it with culture war and just and left it with culture war when what what what the real message was when what what what the real message was when what what what the real message was was a savior that was filled with grace was a savior that was filled with grace was a savior that was filled with grace and truth. That's not less than clarity and truth. That's not less than clarity and truth. That's not less than clarity about cultural issues but it is it is about cultural issues but it is it is about cultural issues but it is it is more. And so we expect that if we really more. And so we expect that if we really more. And so we expect that if we really are gospel emissaries yeah you got to are gospel emissaries yeah you got to are gospel emissaries yeah you got to have to you're going to be taking stuff have to you're going to be taking stuff have to you're going to be taking stuff from both sides. If you're not then from both sides. If you're not then from both sides. If you're not then you're probably not doing it right you you're probably not doing it right you you're probably not doing it right you know cuz those forces in our world don't know cuz those forces in our world don't know cuz those forces in our world don't change. So anyway I didn't mean to drop change. So anyway I didn't mean to drop change. So anyway I didn't mean to drop that in at the very end after you were that in at the very end after you were that in at the very end after you were concluding there.

concluding there. concluding there. >> you dropped that in that is very very >> you dropped that in that is very very >> you dropped that in that is very very clarifying [laughter] clarifying [laughter] clarifying [laughter] and convicting. And you know what there and convicting. And you know what there and convicting. And you know what there are days I was talking to a buddy are days I was talking to a buddy are days I was talking to a buddy yesterday where I miss Tim Keller which yesterday where I miss Tim Keller which yesterday where I miss Tim Keller which is pretty regular is pretty regular is pretty regular and you wonder who's speaking into this and you wonder who's speaking into this and you wonder who's speaking into this and you are speaking into this cultural and you are speaking into this cultural and you are speaking into this cultural moment right now and I just want to say moment right now and I just want to say moment right now and I just want to say thank you on behalf of all of our thank you on behalf of all of our thank you on behalf of all of our listeners and you know for every person listeners and you know for every person listeners and you know for every person that you anger by saying this you're that you anger by saying this you're that you anger by saying this you're probably going to help 10. So I just probably going to help 10. So I just probably going to help 10. So I just want to say thank you JD. want to say thank you JD. want to say thank you JD. But why is it that it's only the one and But why is it that it's only the one and But why is it that it's only the one and not the 10 who write me? Yeah [laughter] not the 10 who write me? Yeah [laughter] not the 10 who write me? Yeah [laughter] yeah exactly. Well yeah exactly. Well yeah exactly. Well there you go you got to figure that out there you go you got to figure that out there you go you got to figure that out right? I think Jesus told a parable right? I think Jesus told a parable right? I think Jesus told a parable about that if there's a story about about that if there's a story about about that if there's a story about that. that. that. >> you Carey and thanks for having me. >> you Carey and thanks for having me. >> you Carey and thanks for having me. >> Appreciate you man. Looking forward to >> Appreciate you man. Looking forward to >> Appreciate you man. Looking forward to hanging out again. Uh really grateful hanging out again. Uh really grateful hanging out again. Uh really grateful for you. Thank you.